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Week Thirteen of the Russian Intervention in Syria: Debunking the Lies
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Ever since the first rumors began to circulate about an impending Russian military intervention in Syria the Internet and the media have been flooded with all sorts of silly rumors, myths and outright lies about what could/would happen. These rumors, myths and outright lies are still being spread today, and not only by pro-US interest groups, but even by supposedly pro-Russian “analysts”. All this nonsense completely obfuscates the reality of the Russian intervention in Syria (but maybe that was the goal all along?) and tries to paint the Russian operation as a failure. After three months of Russian air and missile strikes in Syria, it is a good time to ask the question of whether the Russians have achieved some tangible results or whether, as some are suggesting, this has basically been a big PR operation.

The key issue here is what criteria to use to measure “success”. And that, in turns, begs the question of what the Russians had hoped to achieve with their intervention in the first place. It turns out that Putin clearly and officially spelled out what the purpose of the Russian intervention was. On October 11th, he declared the following in an interview with Vladimir Soloviev on the TV channel Russia 1:

Our objective is to stabilize the legitimate authority and create conditions for a political compromise

That’s it. He did not say that Russia would single-handedly change the course of the war, much less so win the war. And while some saw the Russian intervention as a total “game changer” which would mark the end of Daesh, I never believed that. Here is what I wrote exactly one day before Putin made the statement above:

Make no mistake here, the Russian force in Syria is a small one, at least for the time being, and it does not even remotely resemble what the rumors had predicted (…) There is no way that the very limited Russian intervention can really change the tide of the war, at least not by itself. Yes, I do insist that the Russian intervention is a very limited one. 12 SU-24M, 12 SU-25SM, 6 SU-34 and 4 SU-30SM are not a big force, not even backed by helicopters and cruise missiles. Yes, the Russian force has been very effective to relieve the pressure on the northwestern front and to allow for a Syrian Army counter-offensive, but that will not, by itself, end the war.

I was harshly criticized at that time for “minimizing” the scope and potential of the Russian operation, but I chose to ignore these criticisms since I knew that time would prove me right.

What happened then was a typical exercise in hyperbole: many putatively pro-Russian commentators took turns writing euphoric “analyses” which day after day spiked the public’s hopes only to then later come crushing down in disappointment. Predictably, the more the gap between expectations and reality on the ground grew, the more the critiques Putin and Assad could gloat about the Russian “failure to win”. That kind of pseudo-analysis is built on a typical “straw man” fallacy: the ridiculous notion that the Russian intended to single-handedly defeat Daesh. Sadly, “pro-Russian” commentators greatly contributed to the construction of that “straw man” by their (and not the Russian military’s) completely unrealistic expectations and predictions.

Following the second week of the Russian intervention in Syria I wrote:

The Russian force is small and vulnerable. Of course, one option for the Russians would be to expand the airfield near Latakia, but that would take time and more resources and my understanding is that they want to consolidate their current airfield first. However, as a stop-gap measure, the Russians could use Russian-based bombers. If Iran allows Russia to conduct in-air refueling in Iranian airspace or if Iran allows Russia to use Iranian airbases, then many more SU-34/SU-35SM or SU-34/SU-30SM “air force packages” could be engaged in Syria. In theory, Russia could even provide her Tu-22M3 to deliver gravity bombs, her Tu-95MS to deliver cruise missiles and her Tu-160 to deliver either one or both. I don’t think that there is any military necessity to use these strategic bombers right now, but it might be a good idea to do so for political reasons – just to flex some more ‘military muscle’ and show the Neocons that Russia is not to be messed with. Submarine launched cruise missiles would also work, especially if launched by a Russian sub in the Mediterranean which the USN did not detect.

And this is exactly what happened next: Russia began to use her strategic aviation to augment her capabilities and to show the West that the Kremlin meant business. I then concluded by saying:

So far, the Kremlin has done a superb PR job explaining that Daesh is a direct threat to Russia and that it was better for Russia to “fight them over there than over here”. This logic, however, is predicated on the idea that a very limited Russian intervention can tip the balance. There is a very fine conceptual line between tipping the balance and fighting someone else’s war and that is something the Kremlin is acutely aware of. Hopefully, this line will never be crossed.

To be fair to the Kremlin, saying that it is better to “fight them over there than over here” is in no way a promise the tip any balance. But there were many Russian commentators who did say that the Russian intervention would, indeed, tip the balance and the Kremlin did not directly refute these claims. So I suggest the following goal setting by the Kremlin:

  • Primary objective: stabilize the legitimate authority and create conditions for a political compromise
  • Secondary objective : tip the balance of the war in favor of the Syrian armed forces.

Having discarded the silly strawman arguments and we have established the real Russian goals we can now evaluate whether Russia has been successful or not.

ORDER IT NOW

Following only three weeks of Russian air and missile operations, Assad came to Moscow and the first multilateral negotiations, which brought together the foreign ministers of Russia, the US, Turkey and Saudi Arabia, took place in Vienna. All the countries which had unleashed their aggression against Syria under the “Assad must go” slogan now had to accept that Assad was not going anywhere. This was a complete diplomatic triumph for Russia. This first triumph was followed by another series of triumphs at the UNSC. In the meantime, on the ground in Syria, the Syrian military, for the first time in months, actually began a series of counter-offensive which slowly, but systematically, began to push back Daesh in most sectors of the front. So if the criteria is “stabilizing the legitimate authority and creating conditions for a political compromise”, then the Russian operation is nothing short of a total victory, a true diplomatic triumph achieved in a very short time. In less than one month, the Russians succeeded in making Assad’s presence at the head of a legitimate government in Damascus an indisputable reality which all Assad-haters had to accept, and the conditions for a political compromise were created, at least in diplomatic terms.

Now let’s take a closer look at what has actually happened in military terms. But before we do that, let me repeat once again that tipping the military balance has never been the primary Russian objective, only a secondary one which could be achieved, or so the Russians hope, in the process of achieving the first, main, one. To prove my point, I will have to repeat again and again something I have been mantrically repeating for the past three months: the “operational-tactical group of the Russian AirSpace Force (RASF) in Syria” (that is its official name) is roughly equivalent to just one aviation regiment. Without going into many details, you need to know that Russian military theory has developed a very strict set of norms which outline in great detail the kind of forces needed to successfully execute any specific task. What is absolutely clear to anybody with even a basic understanding of warfare and, especially, air operations, is that one single aviation regiment cannot be used to defeat a force with well over 100,000 combatants deployed across a territory of roughly 150,000 km2 (just in Syria) supported by a network of bases and training camps in Turkey and other countries of the region and which gets a quasi infinite supply of weapons, combatants and money from numerous wealthy state sponsors. Ask anybody with even a superficial knowledge of Russian military theory and he/she will tell you that this is not the kind of task an given to an aviation regiment. Those who say otherwise simply don’t know what they are talking about.

What is truly remarkable is that the range of missions accomplished by this aviation regiment equivalent size force has been one which normally have been given to an aviation division (a force roughly 3 to 5 times larger). Let me repeat that: this regimental size force has, for three months nonstop, successfully executed the amount of airstrikes normally given to a force 3 to 5 times bigger. Now I don’t know about you, but for me this sure is the sign of a fantastically successful operation. Ask any military commander how he would feel if the force he commands could accomplish not just the full set of tasks it is supposed to accomplish, but 3 to 5 times more, and this in real combat operation. I assure you that this commander would be elated. The fact that some are still capable of speaking of a Russian military failure is a sign of either dishonesty or ignorance (or both).

Some pseudo-analysts have tried to justify their negative evaluation of the Russian operation by counting the percentage change in the territory controlled by the government forces as opposed to Daesh and its allies. Again, this is a case of either dishonesty or professional incompetence. The fact that Daesh controls roughly 80% of the Syrian territory is meaningless nonsense. Not only because this 80% of land only includes 20% of the population of Syria, but because the very notion of “control” means nothing in the context of this war.

What is really happening is this: most of the combat operation are centered around major urban areas (cities) and specific lines of communications (roads). In terms of small towns or the rest of the countryside, it is not really “controlled” by anybody. Typically, when the government forces take village “A”, the Daesh forces go to “B” and when the government takes “B”, Daesh goes back to “A”. (Those interested in these tactical issues should read this interview of a Russian military specialist with a great deal of experience of Syria translated by my friend Tatzhit Mihailovich). The government forces are already overstretched and are barely capable of mounting an offensive without having to move their forces allocated to the defense of key cities. This is also why the Syrian counter-offensive has been so slow: a dire lack of manpower.

Furthermore, since the real fighting centers around urban areas and key axes of communications, the very use of percentages of territory are meaningless in measuring the success of failure of these operations. Take the example of Aleppo: if/when the Syrians finally fully liberate the city from Daesh, which would be a major success, the percentage shift in controlled territory will be absolutely insignificant. Yet it would be a major success for the government forces.

None of the above, however, really answers the question of whether the Russian military intervention in Syria has tipped the balance in favor of the Syrian government or not. Some say that it has, others deny that. My strictly personal opinion is that no, it has not or, I should say, not yet. But there are some signs that it might in the near future. What are these signs?

First, the pressure on Turkey to stop acting like a rogue-state led by an irresponsible megalomaniac has been increasing ever since the downing of the Russian SU-24 and the subsequent Russian revelations about the Turkish regime and, specifically, the Erdogan family’s involvement in the illegal purchase of Daesh oil. So far the regime is holding fast, but it is clearly hurting politically and the tensions are now flaring up inside and all around Turkey. While I don’t expect Erdogan to cave in to external pressures, I do think that the tensions in Turkey will end up hurting Daesh, probably in a minor way unless the conflict with the Kurds truly blows up, at which point Daesh will be affected in a much more significant manner.

Second, there are some signs that Daesh is running into military difficulties in Iraq and political difficulties in the rest of the Arab world. The fact that the Saudis have now felt the need to create what is basically a Sunni anti-Shia terrorist force (aka officially as “Islamic anti-terrorist force”) is a clear sign that Daesh is not living up to their expectations.

Third, the Russians are now providing heavy artillery systems and training to the Syrians who are now slowly but surely acquiring the kind of firepower which the Russians have used with devastating effectiveness against the Wahabis in Chechnia.

Fourth, while the Russian air operations are, by definition, incapable of defeating a well-dug in and dispersed guerrilla force, it can place a great deal of stress on its logistics and supply lines. It also severely restricts the mobility of Daesh forces, especially by night.

Fifth, with the direct support of the RASF, the Syrians, backed by Hezbollah, have begun retaking control of some segments of the Syrian border with Lebanon and Turkey. That is, by the way, one of the most difficult yet crucial tasks for the government forces: to take as much of the Syrian border with Turkey under control (the Iranians will do that with the Iraqi border). This has not happened so far, and it will not happen in the near future, but the events are moving in the right direction.

But what will really decide of the outcome of this war is not firepower but logistics. Currently, the Syrians are at a huge disadvantage: not only are the short on ammunition and, especially, spares, but their entire armament is outdated and way past its theoretical service life. The Syrian government forces have also suffered terrible losses in manpower but the Syrians cannot afford a full mobilization as this would greatly hurt an already suffering economy. Keep in mind that the Syrians have been fighting this war for longer (4 years and 9 months) than the Soviet Union fought WWII (3 years and 10 months). The fact that cracks are showing everywhere are normal. In fact, the only thing which the Syrians seem to have an infinite supply of is courage.

Daesh (and when I speak of Daesh I mean all of them, the “good terrorists” and the “bad ones”) is, so far, enjoying a quasi limitless supply of combatants, equipment, supplies and, most importantly, money. With the full backing of the USA, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, Israel and many European countries, this is hardly surprising. Daesh also enjoys a huge geographical advantage because it can use Turkey, Jordan and Iraq as a rear base and safe heaven.

Make no mistake here, the Syrians are the underdog here and there is nothing the Russians can do to change that, at least not alone. The key issue here is what Iran is capable and willing to do in this situation. Iran has already done a lot and I believe that the Iranians will do more but only if there is no other way. It is not that the Iranians lack courage or means, but the fact that they are already taking a huge risk in being so deeply involved in this war. I am personally surprised by the fact that the USA, especially, Israel have not already started to denounce an “Iranian invasion of Syria”, especially since the USA did not have any qualms about denouncing a totally fictional “Russian invasion” of the Donbass. But if the number of Iranian boots on the ground goes up this kind of propaganda will be used (even if the Iranians are legally present at the request of the legitimate Syrian government).

Sadly, the AngloZionists have succeeded in created an immense and truly toxic mess with their interventions in the Maghreb and the Middle-East. Just as in the Ukraine, there is no simple solution to stop the conflict and return to peace. In the Ukraine, the Empire unleashed a nauseous mix of Nazis and Jews, while the Middle-East is now threatened by a massive Takfiri infestation. Neither Russia nor Iran will ever be able to solve this conflict by “winning” it. Things have gone way too far and just as peace will return to the Ukraine only after a full-denazification, peace will only return to the Middle-East after a full de-Takfirization of the region, including in Saudi Arabia and Qatar. To those who will accuse me of being naïve about the realistic prospects of ridding the Ukraine of Nazis and the Middle-East of Wahabis, I will reply with a few simple and basic questions: do you really and sincerely believe that peace can be made with Nazis and Takfiris? Do you think that either group will simple “give up” their delusional insanity and become a “normal” political force? Or do you really believe that only liberating the Donbass and Syria of these shaitans and leave them in control of the rest of the Ukraine/Middle-East will really bring peace to the Donbass or Syria?

The truth is that the war in the Ukraine will only end when all of the Ukraine is liberated, just as the war in the Middle-East will only end when all of the Middle-East is liberated. You might not like this notion – I sure don’t – but reality has never been dependent on our likes or dislikes. This will be a long war.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: ISIS, Russia, Syria 
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  1. krollchem says:

    Saker,

    Thanks for this honest assessment of the Russian support for the Syrian fight against Daesh and its Western sponsors.

    Progress is being made slowly with Aleppo and East Damanscus caldrons looking a lot like Debaltsevo and Saur-Mogila traps. The strategy appears to be an evolution of Zhukov’s in the Battle of Khalkhin Gol, but without the massed infantry assault. Especially telling is the Syrian strategy of cutting off Daesh supply lines and holding transportation crossroads.

  2. Tom_R says:

    POWERFUL CHEAP RUSSIAN TACTICS THAT COULD HELP IT WIN COLD WAR 2.

    Thanks for the interesting article, Saker. You said that: “just to flex some more ‘military muscle’ and show the Neocons that Russia is not to be messed with”

    And when Russians consider America the new threat to them, they must remember that it is not the American public, but the Judaists (aka neocons) who own and operate our govt. and have been paying our govt. bribes that hate Russia, under the delusion they are “diaspora” from Israel, though they are mostly Kazhars, from Russia! Like a kidnapped child who comes back to beat up his parents, the Israel delusion of the Torah turns the Judaists into hating their mother–Mother Russia!

    With a fraction of the US budget, Russia has not explored other tactics that could help it have an advantage over the US in Cold War 2 the Judaists want. Throughout history, weaker nations have incited rebellions and insurgencies (regime changes) in their stronger nations that pose a threat to them.

    Since Russia is a member of Interpol, it could amend its laws to allow jurisdiction against anyboy who pays any money to a politician or advocates/finances/supports/condones terrorism or advocates any attack/sanctions against Russia and issue arrest warrants against them. It would thus have jurisdiction over the neo-cons, who are basically private citizens and issue INTERPOL red corner alerts against the neocons. They could be arrested as soon as they try to board a plane ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD. They would be holed up in their mansions.

    In fact, there is an outstanding Russian arrest warrant against George Soros:

    http://csglobe.com/russia-issues-international-arrest-warrant-for-rothschild-soros/

    With more arrest warrants against the likes of Cohen of the Washington Post who is inciting attacking Russia, or those who sponsor

    The US military has very low morale. Some of them know that they are being used just as mercenaries to die for a criminal state of Israel, and the Jewish Oligarchs have been paying the politicians bribes. Many know that Obama is an illegal alien owned and operated by the Jewish Oligarchs. This manifests itself in a high rate of suicides, which indicates they are severely depressed. Since US laws do not apply to Russia, Russia would have a legal right to set up websites inciting rebellion and defections from the US and EU armes, esp of white soldiers. If Russia encourages the white pilots who fly AWACS to defect to Russia (say, via Iran, etc.) with their airplanes and their secrets, Russia would be able to get millions of dollars of airplanes and military secrets for a few thousand dollar website.

    If Russian intelligence uses Mossad like tactics and carries out targeted assassinations on US soil of Jewish Oligarchs who are inciting a war against Russia, it would have a 3rd weapon in its arsenal. Russia might end up using these tactics in Cold War 2.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @RadicalCenter
  3. Rehmat says:

    SAKER recently claimed: “Make no mistake. There is no big love between Russia and Israel. But neither is there a lot of hostility, at least not on the Russian side.”

    Now, anyone who studied World Zionist movement history from some objective source knows that Soviet played the part of “surrogate mother” for the Zionist entity in Palestine. Not only Russian Jewish leaders played a major role in the creation western colonial project in British occupied Palestine, even the first Israeli president Chaim Wiessman was president of Russian Socialist Party.

    While Washington provided billions of dollar for Israel, Moscow provided Jewish immigration to populate land stolen from the native Muslim and Christian Palestinians durin the 1950s.

    SAKER is Russian government propagandist and anti-Islam bigot. He banned me a few months ago for challenging some articles on his website which concerned Russian Church’s brutal treatment in USSR and Balkans.

    As far SAKER’s this rant – Putin cannot even dream of nuking Israel – not because Israel, too, has the capability to nuke Moscow, but because there are over one million Russian Jews living in Israel, and Putin maintains personal friendship with Netanyahu and Russian-born former Israeli FM Avigdor Lieberman. Let’s not forget, some Russian writers have claimed that Putin was a Jew orphan raised by a Christian family.

    Putin has no interest in saving Bashar al-Assad or any Muslim nation-state from Israeli vultures for that matter. His only interest is to re-establish Soviet-era domination of the region.

    Russia like China is still a colonial power. It’s still occupying several Muslim lands, such as, Crimea, Chechnya, Sochi, Siberia, Dagestan, and Ingushetia (Watch a video below).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/09/29/putins-syrian-paradox/

  4. “In fact, the only thing which the Syrians seem to have an infinite supply of is courage.”

    If that’s true, why are their men in European refugee centers looking for a place to charge their smartphones. Trump is right, Milos Zeman is right, they should by back in Syria trying to free Aleppo.

  5. Max Payne says:
    @Bragadocious

    Because they weren’t radical enough to be given training and weapons by the US.

    Too bad they don’t touch their head on the floor 5 times a day and wish death on America every 30 seconds so the US can give them 400 million dollars worth of training and freedom-making equipment.

  6. @Bragadocious

    Those guys are nearly all pro-rebel refugees, not pro-government. If they were in Aleppo they’d be fighting the SAA.

    I tried once to persuade a Christian Syrian to seek asylum in the UK. He insisted on going back to Syria to help protect his family.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  7. Alfred says:

    Thank you for an excellent analysis.

    I thoroughly agree that it is all a matter of logistics. I complained many times in the comments of the online edition of the Financial Times that it was impossible for ISIS to occupy such a vast area without the active support of many Western and Middle Eastern nations. FT.com ignored my comments and now I have been blacklisted and my comments are blocked. Such is the mendacity of Western Mainstream Media.

    Personally, I am optimistic that Turkey will become steadily more ungovernable. One the other side, Saudi Arabia is being stung by the sharp attacks of the Yemenis. Let’s not forget that perhaps 1/4 of the population of Saudi Arabia is of Yemeni descent. I would only take a few well-placed bombs in the oil-producing Eastern Province to make the price of oil double overnight.

  8. Avery says:
    @Bragadocious

    {If that’s true, why are their men in European refugee centers looking for a place to charge their smartphones.}

    That’s not true at all.
    Most “Syrian” refugees are not Syrian at all.

    [Four out of five migrants are NOT from Syria: EU figures expose the ‘lie’ that the majority of refugees are fleeing war zone ]
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3240010/Number-refugees-arriving-Europe-soars-85-year-just-one-five-war-torn-Syria.html

    All Syrians – Sunny, Alawite, Christian, Kurd – have been courageously fighting the infinite supply foreign terrorist invaders for 4+ years.
    It is amazing they held out that long against the combined financial, logistical, and military resources of Turkey, Saudis, Qatar, US, UK, France,…. pretty much on their own until Russian AF came in with a small force a couple of months ago.

    And a little known fact is that most of those killed in the Syrian war have been pro-Government forces:
    2011-1015
    96,000 pro-government.
    86,000 terrorists
    77,000 civilians.

    The nice thing is that in the beginning (2011,2012,2013) more pro-gov men were killed vs terrorists. Starting 2014, the ratio changed in favour of the good guys.
    Hopefully in 2016 the back of the cannibals will be broken.

    • Replies: @L.K
  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Wow Saker, I think you’re losing it. I really like your analysis of the middle east with a pro-Russian point of view but what the hell is this crap? What’s the SITREP for Syria? I don’t even know who your “pro-Russians speaking against Russian success” strawmen are. Who says Russia is failing in Syria? It’s not the US, Israel, Egypt, Turkey, China, UK, Germany, France, or India. At least not in their versions of MSM. In fact, Obama was trying to claim the Syrian/Russian progress as an American victory in 2015.

    If you want to write some stupid rant against the people who comment on your blog, you should keep it on your blog and not present it to the world as if it’s some kind of pseudo-analysis of the what’s going on in Syria.

    So, what do you say, maybe “Week 14 of the Russian intervention in Syria” could actually have something to do with Syria?

  10. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Russia also didn’t want to lose their Syrian naval base, which would happen if the USA/Israel/Turkey/SA supported terrorists overthrow Assad

    That would of been obvious four years and 250,000 lives ago, so why did Russia wait so long to help their friend?

    And Russia will make Big Bucks off their show of military force on the world armaments market, but that’s being a bit jaded.

    Putin is also up for reelection and having a hot war ongoing is usually good for the incumbent.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    , @5371
  11. One disagreement I have with this generally good article is that I don’t think the influence, power and threat of a few th0usand Ukrainean & northwest-European (Swedish etc) Nazis fighting in the Donbass on behalf of the ‘Anglozionist’ New World Order Globalists can be compared to the hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of Takfiris in the Middle East and beyond. The Nazis are few in number, and are being used instrumentally by people who hate them, because both the Globalists and these particular Nazis hate Russians more than they hate each other. They are only used because otherwise there is a shortage of men willing to fight Russians & pro-Russian Ukraineans. Outside of Ukraine, most of the Western Far Right is either ambivalent in the Ukrainean conflict, or broadly pro-Russia.
    With the Takfiris, while they are frequently allied with the New World Order vs nationalist governments and the general mass of ordinary people, the Takfiris have much independent financial support from those who share their beliefs & goals. There are far more of them, they are far better funded, they are able to operate independently of the NWO, allying when it suits them, attacking when it suits them. I can see that from a Russian perspective they may seem comparable but globally at this time the Takfiris are at least two orders of magnitude more powerful & threatening to human civilisation.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  12. @Greg Bacon

    why did Russia wait so long to help their friend?

    It appears that Putin waited until the sanctions against Iran were lifted before intervening in Syria.

  13. Quote from first half of the article “the Russian operation is nothing short of a total victory, a true diplomatic triumph achieved in a very short time”
    Quote from second half of the article “Make no mistake here, the Syrians are the underdog here and there is nothing the Russians can do to change that, at least not alone.”
    Typical Saker. The second half of his article negates the first half. The whole article comes across as an attempt to convince oneself of a success that does not exist. This so called analysis is nothing more but a play with words divorced from any meaning.

    • Replies: @FLOR solitaria
  14. Sherman says:
    @Rehmat

    “Russian-born former Israeli FM Avigdor Lieberman”

    Lieberman was born in Moldova, not Russia, you idiot.

    • Replies: @Hrw-500
  15. 5371 says:
    @Greg Bacon

    The next presidential elections in Russia are in 2018. 2018, Carl!

  16. annamaria says:
    @Tom_R

    To make your excellent idea a bit shorter and more effective in a long run:
    “…to allow jurisdiction against anybody who advocates/finances/supports/condones terrorism… They could be arrested as soon as they try to board a plane ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.”

  17. annamaria says:
    @Rehmat

    You forgot about the the Jackson–Vanik amendment. And may I ask you, since then Siberia and Crimea and Sochi have become a “Muslim land?” What about Byzantium belonging to western civilization? What about Greeks living in Crimea before the advent of Islam? Do you really believe that because the Mongolian colonizers had adopted Islam, we should think of Siberia (and other countries that suffered mongol-tatar invasion, such as China, Iran, Russia, Hungary, France, and more) as a mongol-tatar patria? With claims like these you reveal yourself as a proponent of caliphate.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @This Is Our Home
    , @L.K
  18. Avery says:
    @Rehmat

    {SAKER is Russian government propagandist and anti-Islam bigot. }

    You are an anti-Christian IslamoFascist bigot.
    You are lucky UNZ.com allows you to post anything at all.
    Your posts are filled with nothing but misinformation, disinformation, and IslamoFascist propaganda. Nobody reads your worthless blog, so you come here to a popular site to leach off of a site run by a Jewish-American to spew your anti-Jewish, anti-Christian, anti-American vomit.

    If you don’t like the West, or Christians, or Jews – why are you living in the West you IslamoFascist bigot ? Every day you are posting your anti-Western, anti-Christian, anti-Jew hate on a website in United States, owned and funded by a Jewish-American, you IslamoFascist bigot.

    You don’t like the West, go live in some IslamoFascsit country: how about Saudi Arabia. Run you useless blog from there.
    Who knows , maybe you’ll get lucky and be in the next group that gets publicly beheaded in Riyadh for some bogus “crime”.

    You anti-Christian IslamoFascist ignoramus.

  19. Avery says:
    @Rehmat

    {Russia like China is still a colonial power. It’s still occupying several Muslim lands, such as, Crimea, Chechnya, Sochi, Siberia, Dagestan, and Ingushetia}

    The only original Muslim lands are in Saudi Arabia, Mecca, the birthplace of Islam.
    Christianity is 600 years older than Islam.
    Every so-called “Muslim lands” was either Christian or other.
    Invading IslamoFascist hordes forcibly converted the “Infidels” or slaughtered those who did not want to convert.

    Ex: Asia Minor was all Christian for centuries.
    That is until IslamoFascist Seljuk Turk nomad hordes from Uyguristan invaded.
    Indigenous Christians were gradually ethnically cleansed and forcibly converted over centuries.
    Then the IslamoFascist nomad Muslim invaders decided to accelerate the process.
    Between 1895-1923 about 4 million Christians – Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks – were subjected to Genocide. By Muslim Turks.
    Voila: Magically, Christian lands became Turkish “Muslim” lands.
    Nomad Muslim Turks invaded and occupied 40% of Christian Cyprus.
    The indigenous Cypriot Christians were ethnically cleansed.
    Now Northern Cyprus is also so-called “Muslim” lands.

    Everywhere IslamoFascists invade , ethnically cleanse, slaughter or forcibly convert the indigenous peoples becomes alleged “Muslim” lands.

    Muslim invaders are still occupying millions and millions of square miles of Christian lands.

  20. You and Mike Whitney must be working for Putin. Putin has already killed many civilians but who cares, neither of you obviously. And just what are your qualifications for your opinions? Do you have any at all? I doubt it, that’s why we know nothing about you or Whitney. Both of you sound like warmongers. Putin is just making things worse along with the stupid Western nations whose answer to every problem is to drop more bombs. That’s how stupid the West is and that’s how stupid you are. You should change your name from the Saker to the Sucker, unless Putin is paying you that is.

    • Replies: @Unz Reader
  21. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    proponent of caliphate.

    he is

    there really are some Muslims who believe it’s Allah’s will that Islam conquers the world

    they’re no better than the Zionists and sometimes I think these people deserve each other

  22. @annamaria

    With claims like these you reveal yourself as a proponent of caliphate

    He is a genuine proponent of Muslim supremacy who has been attracted to this site by the strong smell of anti-semitism or whatever you want to call it.

    Just as being for lower taxes attracts all sorts of greedy corporate interests.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  23. @Simon in London

    I can see that from a Russian perspective they may seem comparable but globally at this time the Takfiris are at least two orders of magnitude more powerful & threatening to human civilisation.

    Which would nicely explain why, despite the complaints of the Russian nationalists, Putin is concentrating more on the fight in Syria than the situation in Ukraine.

  24. L.K says:
    @annamaria

    Well, Rehmat is an islamic supremacist.
    Here and there he makes a few valid points but he writes a lot of nonsense too.
    It seems to me that to Rehmat, any land ever inhabited by some muslims is ‘muslim land’.
    Ridiculous.
    I wonder when Rehmat, who apparently lives in Canada, will claim it as ‘muslim land’ as well.

    It’s true however that unlike here at Unz, there is quite a bit of censorship over at the sakers blog.
    I know it from personal experience.

    Kudos to Mr.Unz for it, there are very few places where dissenting opinions are tolerated.

  25. Rurik says:

    “… the realistic prospects of ridding the Ukraine of Nazis …

    The truth is that the war in the Ukraine will only end when all of the Ukraine is liberated,… .

    …This will be a long war.

    horrible!

    I do not agree with the Nazis in Ukraine. I’ve seen enough of them to agree that some of them are neo-Nazis, or sympathetic, but I in no way compare them to the head slicers !

    The only similarity is that both groups are being funded and armed and foisted by Israel and it’s puppet the west – the head slicers in order to do a ‘Libya’ on Syria, and the Nazis to torment Putin’s Russia, for getting involved in Syria.

    But to characterize the “Nazis” as some kind of WWII type threat is insane. Sure, there are real life Nazis there, but they’re mostly kids. And what kind of Nazis takes orders from Jews like Yatz or Kolomoisky, eh? What kind of Nazis are led around like a dog by Victoria Nuland and the Kagan cabal?

    I’ve heard the Russians talking about Nazis for a long time. They hate them. And in spite of a long time, there still lingers old resentments. That war was a terrible war. Terrible things happened to all involved, and the winners have spun their narrative that it was heroic Russians who saved the world from the evil, fascist German Nazis. Forgetting that it was the Bolsheviks who were behind it all from the beginning. They created the Soviet Union of Stalin’s genocidal rapine, and they used the Russian people as their dogs, just like their doing to my country today. But rather than repudiate the crimes of the Soviet Unions, Russians today wallow in the false narrative that their grandfathers were heroes who saved the world, forgetting that they were the men that went marching into Poland and Estonia and Latvia and Czechoslovakia and Hungary and Ukraine, (and so many others), and imposed an Orwellian horror for generations. (see Solzhenitsyn, Alexander)

    And all of the people of these countries who want to take down the statues to the hated Red Army rapists and honor their own dead fathers and grandfathers who fought against all of that Bolshevik insanity, and who were hardly German or Nazi , but just wanted to crush the Fiend who had taken over their lands and imposes genocide on the Ukraine, they today are called “Nazis” and fascists by Russians, who still to this day demand that the Satellite states honor the Soviet scum who had violated their lands and people.

    God this is getting long, and I must keep it short..

    The solution to the Russian/Ukraine conflict is not to ‘rid the Ukraine of “Nazis”. It is not to “liberate” Ukraine. That was already done by the Soviets in the last century, and having been “liberated” by the Soviets back then, I suspect they’d have a little problem with Russian troops marching in to “liberate” them today.

    Putin (the world’s only statesman today) played the Crimea masterfully. The Crimea is full of Russians with ancient ties to mother Russia. He could not cut her loose for strategic reasons also. And there are arguments for going further to help the Russian nationals who’re under siege by the Zio-funded nationalistic dupes of the Jews in Kyiv who’re trying to foment a larger war !

    So no, any talk of Russia going into Ukraine with tanks is madness. The solution to this problem is for Putin to deescalate.. to redress the wrongs of the Soviet period to the people of Ukraine, and the other former satellite states (who’re inviting NATO in out of fear of an unrepentant Russian bear). Not to use more belligerence against these people. Enough people died as a result of those terrible banker’s wars, lets try to make sure we don’t do a redux in this century. Please!

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
  26. Sean says:

    Who cares what government is in Syria as long as Syrians are happy to stay there or return?

    Many Syrians (and Ukrainians) may not have ever particularly wanted to stay in their country and have a low standard of living, let alone get blasted to bits fighting in a futile stalemated civil war.

    I expect many young Syrian men welcome the chance to move to Europe, and the war is the reason they can do what they might have wanted to anyway. Assad, the US, ISIS and Russia have had a substantial effect in opening the doors of Europe to larger scale accelerating ME (and African) immigration often of young males that shows no sign of leveling off.

    Decades from now that is what the Syrian war will be remembered for. Assad wants to dry up the pool of recruits for rebels and so the mass exodus of Syrians as the Alawites advance under Russian bombardments is going to have Assad’s blessing. There will be no going back for anyone suspected of being from a rebel sympathising family and any military age male who has lived in a rebel-held territory will be inviting death by not leaving Syria. I expect 10 million Syrians to settle permanently in Europe over the next few years. The US will be pleased about that of course, because it thinks non European immigrants are just what Europe needs.

  27. L.K says:
    @Avery

    The figures for SAA/NDF & other pro-government militias that Avery mentions as well as the numbers of terrorists killed are NOT credibLE.
    Why?
    They invariably tracE back to the pompously named SOHR, a one man propaganda outfit posing as an NGO, based in England. The “rebel” supporter, Rami Abdulrahman, is the organization.
    He claims to have a network of ‘contacts’ in Syria, which provides his pro-“rebel” fake one-man ngo with direct info from the battlefield
    .

    Obviously the info is heavily biased. Even if Rami, a “rebel” propagandist, truly wanted to report accurately on casualty figures for both sides, which he does not, he would not be able to get such information, even more so when concerning the terrorists.

    Rami once admitted that it was very difficult to know when a ‘rebel’ was killed, bc they often did not report it, or reported the deaths as civilians(many militants, even today, do not wear military uniforms). Also, not even the terrorists know, given that there are dozens of militant groups out there.
    Having followed this war closely, i think it is safe to say that although the government losses have been heavy, the militant casualties have been worse. This from the start.
    On avg, and i stress ‘on avg’, the Syrian forces have been better led, better trained and tend to have more firepower. If wounded, a syrian soldier generally has a better survival chance than the wounded wahhabi militants.

    For about a year and 1/2 or so, the Syrian government released lists of those syrian soldiers KIA. Then they stopped, probably cause they calculated it was bad for morale.
    At the time, a Russian reporter on the ground in Syria, who had access to the figures, reported them at about 5,000 kia.
    As I understand, those were regular military only, did not include members of the PDCs which would eventually become the Syrian NDF(national defence forces).

    Even if we were to include the kurdish YPG and other militias as pro-gov, I think the near 100,000 military dead(for the gov.side) to be a largely inflated figure.

  28. @Rurik

    I pretty much agree – although the US was clearly the aggressor in instigating the Ukrainean civil war, there are real reasons why many Ukraineans distrust Russia. The Trotskyites in the US government are not much different from the people who ravaged Ukraine under Soviet communism, but many decent Ukraineans have been persuaded to see Russia as the enemy. That Putin’s Russia will not disown its Soviet past – even though Russia was the biggest victim of Soviet Communism – does not help.

    I have to say there is no obvious solution – the Nuland/Power/Kagan types are smart, and their plan to punish Russia in Ukraine for blocking US attack on Syria worked very well. Putin & co were distracted by the Sochi Olympics, and probably a little too naive & trusting that even the US would not sink to the horrific level of perfidy displaced in inciting the Maidan uprising. But long term de-escalation and semi-autonomy for Donbass within Ukraine seems likely the best approach.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    , @Rurik
  29. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Excellent post, Rurik.

    You nailed it when you wrote:
    “But to characterize the “Nazis” as some kind of WWII type threat is insane. Sure, there are real life Nazis there, but they’re mostly kids. And what kind of Nazis takes orders from Jews like Yatz or Kolomoisky, eh? What kind of Nazis are led around like a dog by Victoria Nuland and the Kagan cabal?”

    A point I tried to make over at the sakers blog several times only to have my comments removed.
    Here is one such comments of mine:
    ————————
    I’ve been reading on the coup in Ukraine and here as elsewhere in the alternative media/blogosphere, I detect this ridiculous hysteria about “Nazis”.
    YAWWWNNN, everyone, whether on the ‘left’ or ‘right’, when it suits them or when
    they wanna make a point, drag in the nazi boogeyman.

    The main force behind the Urainian mess are the neocons and their puppets in the Uraine.
    These puppets, are, like the neocons, disproportionately Jewish.
    Even in your(the sakers) imagined ‘nazi’ groups, there is no lack of Jews or people connected to zionist/israeli interests. And I can easily prove that with quotes from israeli and/or jewish media.

    Furthermore, No real national socialist(of wwii variety) would want their country to lose its sovereignty by joining NATO/EU and its own identity by joining one of the most anti-traditionalist/nationalist organizations in the world, the bizarro EU.

    Who are these nazis? Are they people like “Delta”, Ukrainian Jewish commander of a Ukrainian street-fighting unit and former IDF Givati brigade soldier?
    The jewish Telegraphic Agency, JTA, has reported that ‘Delta’ “has headed a force of 40 men and women — including several fellow IDF veterans — in violent clashes with [ukranian]government forces.”

    As for the “Nazi” Svoboda; “As platoon leader, Delta says he takes orders from activists connected to Svoboda, an ultra-nationalist party that has been frequently accused of anti-Semitism and whose members have been said to have had key positions in organizing the opposition protests.
    “I don’t belong [to Svoboda], but I take orders from their
    team. They know I’m Israeli, Jewish and an ex-IDF soldier. They call me ‘brother,’ he said. “What they’re saying about Svoboda is exaggerated, I know this for a fact. I don’t like them because they’re inconsistent, not because of [any]anti-Semitism issue.”

    Check out the article http://www.jta.org/2014/02/28/news-opinion/world/in-kiev-an-israeli-militia-commander-fights-in-the-streets-and-saves-lives

    Odd, eh? Not really. The puppet the neocons installed as ‘prime minister’, Arseniy Yatsenyuk, rumored to be of Jewish origin*, has been working closely with (Svoboda’s)Tyahnybok, the ‘nazi’. Buhu.
    Yatsenyuk had appointed as Dnepropetrovsk governor a Jewish oligarch named Igor Kolomoysky, who is a Israeli national and a gangster.

    Kolomoysky, in turn, funds many of the ‘natzi’ battalions.

    *A 2009 article by Haaretz, describes the efforts by Ukrainian Jewish leaders to get Yatsenyuk to step out of the closet and embrace his Jewish heritage.
    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/2.209/debate-rages-over-whether-ukraine-presidential-hopeful-is-jewish-1.6323
    For ex:
    “Not only is his mother a scion of the ancient family whose members “wrote the Talmud,” but his wife, Tereza, is the scion of the glorious Gur dynasty, which includes Israel’s foreign minister.
    Followers of the Lubavitcher Rebbe also published a long letter condemning Yatsenyuk for denying his Jewishness.”

    Turchynov was made the acting President of Ukraine before Poroshenko.
    This man also has close relations to the neocons through a church where he is a pastor or something of the sort.
    The “Church” ‘The Word of Life’, reports Bollyn, ‘is a Zionist organization posing as a church. It was established by a Swedish Jew named Ulf Ekman, who created a church called “Livets Ord”, which established evangelical churches throughout the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s with the express purpose of finding and funding Jewish emigration to Israel.’

    As for the ‘Natzi’ Dmytro Yarosh, leader of Right Sector, he even met with Israel’s ambassador to Ukraine, Reuven Din El, and told him that their movement rejects anti-Semitism and xenophobia and will not tolerate it.
    This according to a dude who sees ‘anti-semites’ under every bed, the infamous ADLs fat skunk Abe Foxman himself, writing for the Huffington Post!!
    One of the ‘natzi’ right sectors key figures is the party speaker, One Borislav Bereza, a synagogue-going Jew.

    Check it out:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/abraham-h-foxman/in-ukraine-new-government_b_4875833.html
    http://tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/187217/borislav-bereza

    Bereza, in the tablemag interview, answers on the matter of natzis,
    anti-semitism, etc:

    “There are incidents everywhere! They arrested a gang of neo-Nazis in Israel last year.

    Look at this country where the governor of Dnipropitrovsk [Kollomoisky] is a Jew, where numerous heads of administration are Jews, where the speaker of Right Sector is a Jew! How can one speak of anti-Semitism? How can one speak of fascism?

    To be a Jew is to yearn for freedom; that is why we left Egypt. To be a Jew is to reject being a slave. This is the essence of Judaism.
    That is also why we stand strong against Russian imperialism, which is a form of enslavement. With some exceptions like [Boris] Nemtsov or the dearly departed [Valeriya] Novodvorskaya who see through the propaganda, the Russians are currently slaves.”

    Hmmm… Nemtsov was a Jew as are most of the “Russian” liberal 5th columnists who have been working to turn Russia into the “West”, i.e, the West as organized Jewry have made it to be in the last 100 plus years.

    Poroshenko
    While Svoboda and Right Sector street fighters may be the engine of this revolution, the steering wheel appears to be in the hands of U.S. Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and other Jewish tribalists.

    It should be no surprise that in a country that suffered famines, mass shootings
    and deportations at the hands of Bolshevik secret police, whose leadership
    was disproportionately jewish, both Poroshenko and Yatsenyuk may try to hide
    their Jewish heritage.
    According to the Jewish Daily Forward article “Ukraine Presidential Frontrunner Petro Poroshenko and His Secret Jewish Roots: Chocolate King’s’ Father Was Jew Who Took Wife’s Name,” Poroshenko’s spokeswoman asked Forbes Israel to remove her boss’ name from a list of the world’s richest Jews.

    http://forward.com/articles/198758/ukraine-presidential-frontrunner-petro-poroshenko/
    Ukraine Presidential Frontrunner Petro Poroshenko and His Secret Jewish Roots
    ‘Chocolate King’s’ Father Was Jew Who Took Wife’s Name

    In the article one reads among other things:

    Marina Lysak, a Jewish activist who participated in the protest movement known as Maidan, after the central Kiev square where they took place, told JTA that the tent people are there to send a message to whomever prevails in the election.
    “The statement is: ‘We are watching you. If you betray us again, we will not remain silent,’ ” Lysak said. Whoever wins on Sunday faces a herculean set of challenges. The first order of business will be dealing with pro-Russian separatist militias that now hold several cities in eastern Ukraine, where Russian speakers constitute a majority.

    Hmmmm…

    Read more: http://forward.com/articles/198758/ukraine-presidential-frontrunner-petro-poroshenko/?p=all#ixzz3XQkPNubt

    So instead of wasting time on ‘nazi’ scarecrows, one should be able to
    clearly see that one of the main driving forces – I’d say the main one- pushing events in the Ukraine are the Neocons.
    Of course there are also others, like old Polish fart, Brzezinski and his disciples.
    A ‘cold war warrior’ and an ethnic Pole, the guy hates Russia with a passion (old hatreds from the old world). There we see the overlapping interests of Zbig and his people with those of the neocons.
    Now, Neoconservatism is a Jewish political and intellectual movement.
    Main themes are Israel and ‘what’s good for the jews’.
    Anyone who has taken the time to study neoconservatism knows
    that it is a Jewish movement as this info has even reached mainstream with, for instance, neocon Jacob Heilbrunn’s book ‘They Knew They Were Right: The Rise of the Neocons’.

    That is why despite ridiculous and constant hysterical calls about nazis and ‘anti-semitism’ in anti-war leftist(and even conservative) circles, Jewish leaders in Ukraine have said there is no such thing, have supported the coup and its leaders(but of course!) and have directed their anger instead against Russia and Putin in a letter.
    See for yourselves:
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4497618,00.html
    http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/jewish-world-news/.premium-1.577735
    http://eajc.org/page32/news43672.html

  30. Art says:

    The Trump Harold
    all the truth that’s fit to print

    Donald Trump on Saturday said the policies of President Barack Obama and former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton “created ISIS.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/01/02/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-hillary-clinton-created-isis/index.html

    p.s. You won’t hear it in the Jew MSM. Trump has to do it.

    p.s. What is Fox-n-Krauthammer going to do? Actually tell the truth?

  31. Svigor says:

    I agree with LK, anyone paying a bit of attention to the SCW knows that Syria is a complete mess. Having any real grasp of what’s going on in any kind of detail is worthy of a PHD. Basically, the whole place is a patchwork of militias (dozens seems like a real understatment. Maybe dozens of militia coalitions). I doubt anyone has remotely reliable stats for who died where and why.

    You and Mike Whitney must be working for Putin. Putin has already killed many civilians but who cares, neither of you obviously. And just what are your qualifications for your opinions? Do you have any at all? I doubt it, that’s why we know nothing about you or Whitney. Both of you sound like warmongers. Putin is just making things worse along with the stupid Western nations whose answer to every problem is to drop more bombs. That’s how stupid the West is and that’s how stupid you are. You should change your name from the Saker to the Sucker, unless Putin is paying you that is.

    Best I can determine so far, if Assad’s regime is overthrown, Islamic State and a lot of other bad sorts will take over Syria. Then IS will use Syria as a base to wage insurgency in Iraq in earnest.

    I think it’s safe to say that the warmongers are the ones practicing “regime change” in SWANA, not the ones trying to prop up the likes of Assad.

    I can’t for the life of me come up with a good, non-warmongering reason for this “Assad must go” thing.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  32. Hrw-500 says:
    @Sherman

    From what I saw on Lieberman’s bio on Wikipedia entry, Moldavia was back then, part of the Soviet Union. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

  33. Aschwin says:
    @Rehmat

    Every intelligent and sovereign thinker is an “anti-islam biggot”. There is nothing redeeming about Islam from either a religious, political or philosophical point of view.

  34. Wally says: • Website
    @L.K

    A blockbuster post. Thank you for stepping up.

    And as has been said here before:
    “there are the ‘Nazis’ with the mythological ‘6M & gas chambers’ and there are the ‘Nazis’ without the mythological ‘6M & gas chambers’”

  35. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website

    http://gopthedailydose.com/2016/01/03/donald-trump-blames-hillary-clinton-and-barack-hussein-obama-for-creating-isis/

    The dots are finally connecting. The final connection will lead to those who control Obama and Clinton. The Glob Masters.
    But Trump go that far to connect the final dots? No, but he is the ONE CANDIDATE who finally called attention to US’s role in creating the conditions that led to rise of ISIS.

    The media didn’t do it even though it is their job.

    What does it say about America that a blowhard political showman is willing to go where the media are supposed to but haven’t.

    Btw, I wonder if Trump is really getting pissed for personal reasons.
    When he entered the race, maybe he was looking for some fun and publicity. He didn’t mean to be so hard on a lot of people.
    But as he’s come under attack after attack, the thing just got personal. Politics is a game where you cannot be aloof and impersonal for long.

    It’s like any sports game. You think you’re gonna play just for fun, but as the game drags on, it becomes more and more personal and a matter of pride.

    It’s like the yankee defense lawyer in Robert Redford’s THE CONSPIRATORS. Initially, he just took the job because he was ordered to do so. He has no personal stake in it. If anything, he hated the idea of defending a southerner.
    But in that role, he came under attack by the prosecution and powerful folks, and he begins to take it personally as a matter of pride. Intellectually, he’s with the North but emotionally he begins to side with the accused. Not only out of growing sympathy but because he’s angry that others are treating him with such hostility and disdain.
    He believes in the cause of the North, but in the courtroom contest of politics and power, he realizes that the conflict isn’t merely about ideas and values but about reputation, honor, and self-worth.

    I think Trump initially didn’t mean to get so hotly involved in a lot of issues, but as so many are attacking him, he’s taking it personally and attacking with fury. The game caught the flame. He didn’t mean to be this hostile about the Clintons, but as they’ve trashed him, he’s trashing them in no-holds-barred manner.

    • Replies: @JSM
    , @utu
  36. Thirdeye says:
    @Simon in London

    Those guys are nearly all pro-rebel refugees, not pro-government.

    In that case, there really is an elevated risk that they would become Jihadis wherever they settle.

  37. @L.K

    Kolomoiskyii is about as representative of Jewish attitudes in Ukraine as Meyer Lansky was for US Jews.

    He’s a criminal and he needs to mobilise thugs, and nazis are the available thugs – hence, Zhidobandera. And, of course the “Jewish leaders” have been bought just like the Ukrainian ones.

    There isn’t much difference in the way most Jews and Ukrainians see this issue – ie both communities are divided. Although the Jews have the option of Israel so are less focussed on Schengen visas.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  38. utu says:

    “Russia’s power in the Syria conflict has been overestimated. ”
    “The Kremlin has raised the stakes in Syria by building an air force base in Latakia and firing several cruise missiles from battleships. But no one should be deceived by these strong-arm tactics: even before that, Moscow helped out its protégé, Assad, with diplomacy and military aid.”
    http://www.dw.com/en/opinion-putins-syria-card-in-the-ukraine-conflict/a-18956434

    “Russia’s pattern of airstrikes in Syria indicate that it is preparing a “plan B” should the regime fail to restore a central Syrian state and be forced to retreat to a fragment of government-held territory along the Mediterranean.”

    “Based on the majority of Russian air strikes and SAA [Syrian Arab Army] fighting, the regime and Moscow are securing an Assadland or Alawistan,” Boris Zilberman, a Russia expert at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), told Business Insider on Thursday, referring to a term used by the foundation’s Tony Badran to describe the Alawi enclave in Latakia.
    http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-syria-alawistan-assadland-2016-1

    • Replies: @RobinG
  39. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    What kind of Nazis are led around like a dog by Victoria Nuland and the Kagan cabal?

    Actually, they’re not. The faction supported by Nuland/Kagan formed an unholy alliance with Ukrainian Nazis to gain power, but the Nazis are creating problems for those hoping to maintain a nice compliant government that will do the bidding of the likes of Nuland and Kagan. There have even been armed confrontations between Right Sector Nazis and government forces in Transcarpathia.

    Nazi-like ideology was being fostered in the Austro-Hungarian ruled portions of the Ukraine before it took root in Germany. Galicians were adopting a radical German nationalist, anti-Slavic mythology even though they themselves were Slavic. That became the ideology of the Banderite OUN/UPA that fought first against the Poles then waged a vicious campaign against Jews and ethnic Russians under German occupation. Banderite apologists love to emphasize that Bander was imprisoned by the Germans, but that was a conflict of political power, not principle. He was turned loose by the Germans to fight against the advancing Red Army. Germany had no trouble recruiting Galicians for two SS divisions, Galizien and Nachtigall. The Babi Yar massacre was the work of the Galizien Division. The Wolfsangel logo of the Galizien Division was adopted by the Nazi Azov Battalion, along with the Nazi Black Sun symbol.

    Nazi ideology also emerged in the Baltic states during the Russian Civil war, from a fusion of Black Hundredist Russian and pan-Germanic nationalism promoted by White Russians. It was brought to Germany by Baltic Germans like Alfred Rosenberg, who became the dominant theoreticians of the NSDAP.

    There is nothing to justify calling the presence of Nazi ideology in the Ukraine and the Baltic states an aberrant reaction to Soviet occupation. Whatever one thinks of the Soviets, the fact remains that it was the advance of the Red Army that ended the power of both German and homegrown Nazis throughout eastern Europe.

    Given that most of the Ukraine was under Russian rule during the late imperial period and that most of the population east of the Dniepr River and along the Black Sea coast is ethnically Russian, there would not be a problem with those populations living as a province of the Russian Federation. But that’s not Russia’s objective. Russia is attempting to foster, through the Minsk process, a neutral Ukrainian state. IMO it is more likely that Ukraine will disintegrate through its own divisions and the failure of the Ukrainian government to offer any benefit to its citizens. The Ukrainian state of 1991-2014 was a contrivance of Soviet bureaucracy that was held together after independence with duct tape and baling wire.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @annamaria
  40. RobinG says:
    @utu

    “Boris Zilberman, a Russia expert at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies (FDD), ”

    LOL. Ziocon propaganda.

  41. Thirdeye says:
    @Simon in London

    The Trotskyites in the US government are not much different from the people who ravaged Ukraine under Soviet communism, but many decent Ukraineans have been persuaded to see Russia as the enemy.

    Trotskyites in the US government? WTF? How much acid do you need to take before you see them?

    That Putin’s Russia will not disown its Soviet past …

    That’s exactly what Putin has done. Russia is run by capitalists and Putin is a religious traditionalist. If Russia did things the Soviet way, they would have been in Kiev over a year ago.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Seamus Padraig
  42. krollchem says:
    @L.K

    “what kind of Nazis takes orders from Jews like Yatz or Kolomoisky, eh?”

    Nazis in the Adar battalion:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

    Kolomoisky also is funding an Islamic unit meant to attack Crimea and the ISIS members of the Adar battalion.

    I guess when Svoboda (formally Social Nationalists) party members give the Nazi salute it is just their way of waving at friends and their torchlight parades are just a few young people letting off steam like similar parades in Nazi Germany.

    Given the corruption in Ukraine many of the common people will jump on their upcoming EU visa free travel and join the Muslim refugees in search of a working wage. Imagine the cauldron when the two groups clash with each other and the established population. This will not go well!

    Meantime in Ukraine the Svoboda and Right Sector war-bands will carve out little turfs much like M-13 and other gangs do in the US.

    Otherwise, I would agree that the Neocons currently are the main puppeteers in Ukraine. They are also effectively using Ukraine as a wedge against EU- Eurasia trade even if it destroys the economies of Western Europe in the process.

  43. From a moderate nationalist perspective I get a bit sick of liberals and neo-cons referring to ISIS as “Islamic State.” A more ideologically accurate term would be Islamic Union – ISIS is about as nationalist as Angela Merkel. Radical Islam is basically the Islamic rival to western liberalism, and should really be referred to as “Islamic globalism.”

    However, referring to it accurately would draw attention to the fact that we are engaged in an unnecessary war between two extreme internationalist ideologies.

  44. @This Is Our Home

    “Just as being for lower taxes attracts all sorts of greedy corporate interests.”

    Um, aside from corporations being a demon spawn of government, how is creating wealth and continuing to possess it being greedy?

    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
  45. @Drapetomaniac

    Um, aside from corporations being a demon spawn of government, how is creating wealth and continuing to possess it being greedy

    I know that libertarians don’t do subtlety but it’s not so hard to understand my point. I’m not saying that corporations are greedy because they want lower taxes, rather they want lower taxes because they are greedy.

    Just like Rehmat isn’t a Muslim supremacist because he is an anti-Semite but he is an anti-Semite because he is a Muslim supremacist. Welcoming him here is thus like welcoming corporations into the libertarian movement.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  46. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    You’re absolutely correct LK in your assessment of the “neo-Nazis” in Ukraine and their Jewish, neocon masters.

    The neocons are evil but they’re not stupid. When they go after Putin, they use the existing fault lines along natural rifts in the geopolitical tectonic plates. They prop up terrorists in Chechnya, they use their stooges like Saakashvili to needle Putin from George, (and today that imbecile is in Odessa!) And they’re using the natural rift between Ukraine and Russia to foment war and strife. It seems like it’s remarkably easy to do when you control the media and the organs of the state. You can goad and bray your citizens into a frothing rage of violent indignation at the “others’, never mind that the lot of the typical Russian or Ukrainian is a thousand times more similar than that of the Zionist oligarchs like Kolomoisky who’re paying these poor people to kill each other. (isn’t that always the way?)

    So yea, when I read the Saker talking about cleansing the Ukraine of “Nazis’, it terrifies me. They’re simply Ukrainian nationalists who resent having been under the thumb of Russia for so very long. And in a sane world, as Russia openly proves it has no delusions of imperialism, which there is zero evidence of, the Russians and the Ukrainians will eventually just fall into trade and mutually beneficial cooperation and perhaps some intermarrying when occasionally that happens too. As I’ve said before, I know a couple, one’s Russian and one’s Ukrainian and they’re both beautiful people. And their daughter is completely American and she’s gorgeous. That’s the kind of thing I’d like to see, not talk of Russia marching into to “liberate” anyone. We had all the “liberating” the world needs in the last century. The US has already “liberated” Iraq and Afghanistan and Libya and is working on Syria today.

    It’s obvious at least to me, that what Russia is doing in Syria is noble and laudable. The Zio/neocon/occupied west-NATO is trying to “liberate” all these countries into the stone age. Putin is today’s global statesman and hope for all people of the world that this century doesn’t resemble the last one by putting up resistance to the zio-oligarchs Orwellian wet dreams of turning us all into Palestinians – or dead.

    We need to wish God speed to Putin in Syria. And we need to mollify and de-escalate the belligerence in the east of Ukraine that is being foisted by Senator McCain and the Kagan cabal and other war pigs and agents of death and misery.

    Victory in Ukraine is peace. Kolomoisky and Porky and Saakashvili and Klitschko and Yatz and all the other assorted whores of Zion are the enemies. Including all the disgusting little worms in the west like Cameron and Merkel and Obama who step -n- fetch for the money men.

    It’s us against them. And we have on our side Putin and those sane voices from Ukraine who understand the way forward is not war with Russia. Fuck no!

    The way forward is peace and trade, gas flowing to Ukraine from Russia and goods flowing back. Eventually prosperity all around. But that is the last thing the Zio-oligarchs want. They want to loot the Ukraine of its resources. That’s part of the reason Kolomoisky is so furious at Donbass, because that region has resources that Kolomoisky considers his personal property.

    OK, I can tell this is getting too long…

  47. Rurik says:
    @Svigor

    I can’t for the life of me come up with a good, non-warmongering reason for this “Assad must go” thing.

    the reason “Assad must go” is because Israel wants the Golan Heights

    • Replies: @L.K
  48. Rurik says:
    @Simon in London

    That Putin’s Russia will not disown its Soviet past – even though Russia was the biggest victim of Soviet Communism – does not help.

    wow Simon, that is a meme I’ve been trying desperately for more Russians to understand, but it seems like their skulls are too think with ethno-ultra-nationalistic false pride to understand how badly they were duped, (and Gulaged)

    I have to say there is no obvious solution – the Nuland/Power/Kagan types are smart, and their plan to punish Russia in Ukraine for blocking US attack on Syria worked very well. Putin & co were distracted by the Sochi Olympics, and probably a little too naive & trusting that even the US would not sink to the horrific level of perfidy displaced in inciting the Maidan uprising. But long term de-escalation and semi-autonomy for Donbass within Ukraine seems likely the best approach

    I agree 100%

  49. Rurik says:
    @jimmyriddle

    Kolomoiskyii is about as representative of Jewish attitudes in Ukraine as Meyer Lansky was for US Jews.

    Kolomoyski is a prominent supporter of Ukraine’s Jewish community[44] and the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine.[45] In 2010 he was appointed as the president of the European Council of Jewish Communities[46] after promising the outgoing president he would donate $14 million,[47] with his appointment being described as a “putsch”[45][46] and a “Soviet-style takeover”[48] by other EJCJ board members. After several ECJC board members resigned in protest, Kolomyski quit the ECJC and, together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, founded the European Jewish Union.[47]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

    • Replies: @jimmyriddle
  50. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    Nazi-like ideology was being fostered in the Austro-Hungarian ruled portions of the Ukraine before it took root in Germany.

    you mean these people?

    there was no such thing as a Nazi during the Austro-Hungarian era. It’s wasn’t until after that empire fell following WWI that Nazism appeared as a resistance movement to the genocidal Bolsheviks who had taken over Russia “by the hair of the head” and were starving Ukrainian farmers to death in a systematic and cruel campaign of genocide and were agitating to take over Germany too at the time. This is the environment out of which sprung Nazism.

    He was turned loose by the Germans to fight against the advancing Red Army.

    Good!

    Everything I know about the “advancing Red Army” leads me to believe it was as close to a true Satanic incarnation as there’s ever been on earth

    Millions of ethnic Russians and Cossacks and others also fought against this demonic Fiend

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_movement

    and these heroic men were treacherously “keelhauled” by FDR and Churchill at Yalta

    Nazi ideology also emerged in the Baltic states during the Russian Civil war, from a fusion of Black Hundredist Russian and pan-Germanic nationalism promoted by White Russians. It was brought to Germany by Baltic Germans like Alfred Rosenberg, who became the dominant theoreticians of the NSDAP.

    even today any opprobrium of the insanity that was Bolshevik communism is greeted with smears of “Nazism”. The citizens of the Baltics didn’t need White Russians to promote the idea of resistance to the Bolsheviks, sanity and survival were reasons enough.

    There is nothing to justify calling the presence of Nazi ideology in the Ukraine and the Baltic states an aberrant reaction to Soviet occupation

    .
    when that is exactly what it is?

    Whatever one thinks of the Soviets, the fact remains that it was the advance of the Red Army that ended the power of both German and homegrown Nazis throughout eastern Europe.

    and imposed commie genocide and slavery for half a century.

    All you need to know about the Nazis vs. the Bolshevik Soviets you can find in a forest in Poland.

    Given that most of the Ukraine was under Russian rule during the late imperial period and that most of the population east of the Dniepr River and along the Black Sea coast is ethnically Russian, there would not be a problem with those populations living as a province of the Russian Federation. But that’s not Russia’s objective. Russia is attempting to foster, through the Minsk process, a neutral Ukrainian state. IMO it is more likely that Ukraine will disintegrate through its own divisions and the failure of the Ukrainian government to offer any benefit to its citizens. The Ukrainian state of 1991-2014 was a contrivance of Soviet bureaucracy that was held together after independence with duct tape and baling wire.

    interesting..

    but they weren’t under Russian rule, they were under Soviet rule, and that is a very different thing, because the Russian people were also forced to wear that yoke. The people of that region have suffered immensely. Both Russian and Ukrainian. What a tragedy it is to see the same scum from the international banks of the west and their apparatchiks like McCain and Kolomoiky continuing to foment strife and hatred and of course death in this new century just like they did in the last one.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  51. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    Trotskyites in the US government? WTF? How much acid do you need to take before you see them?

    Google this:

    neocon trotskyites

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  52. @Thirdeye

    Trotskyites in the US government? WTF? How much acid do you need to take before you see them?

    He was probably referring to the neocons, most of whom started out as Trotskyites and later switched sides. Or else they were red-diaper babies.

  53. JSM says:
    @Priss Factor

    I think Trump initially didn’t mean to get so hotly involved in a lot of issues, but as so many are attacking him, he’s taking it personally and attacking with fury.

    Oh, please. Trump shot out of the gate calling for a wall to be built between us and Mexico, and Mexico gets to pay for it. Trump started this. (And God bless him for doing so!)

    • Replies: @Priss Factor
  54. annamaria says:
    @Thirdeye

    “The Wolfsangel logo of the Galizien Division was adopted by the Nazi Azov Battalion, along with the Nazi Black Sun symbol.”
    Could you imagine a deafening noise from the Lobby and its subsidiaries, if a representative of a state dept. of any civilized nation was caught while photographed, smilingly and on numerous occasions, in a company with the neo-Nazis? http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
    But there has been a deaf silence from the Anti-Defamation League re the lovely pics of Nuland-Kagan with the neo-Nazis, whereas the Wall Street Journal has published a fawning paper about the financier of the notorious Nazi Azov Battalion, Mr. Kolomoysky (an Israeli citizen, by the way). The “freedom fighters” of the Azov Battalion had burnt alive the scores of civilians in Odessa: http://www.sott.net/article/278522-The-truth-about-what-happened-in-Odessa-Ukraine-How-Bandera-psychopaths-murdered-raped-and-burned-people-alive-with-the-blessing-of-the-Western-powers
    And here are the recent celebrations of Bandera, the most famous Ukrainian collaborator with Nazis, in Kiev (ruled by the US-propped and supported regime): https://www.rt.com/news/327693-kiev-torch-march-bandera/
    It seems that the DC “deciders” such as McCain and H. Clinton have come a conclusion that Nazism was not such a bad thing. Which explains why the Russians changed their attitude toward the US for worse.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  55. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    Hi annamarina,

    Ukrainian collaborator with Nazis,

    Back in the day, during those terrible times, people had a choice, they could either side with the Soviets, (the ones who had committed a genocidal campaign of deliberate mass-starvation of millions of Ukrainians in the 1930s) or they could become anti-communists. The men that decided to become anti-communists and fought against the Soviets during that time are all considered Nazis today by the Russian ultra-nationalists. The thinking is that anyone who didn’t like the Red Army, was a fascist and a Nazi. There seems to be no wiggle room.

    I often mention Operation Keelhaul because that was when Churchill and FDR decided to hand over millions of Ukrainians, Cossacks and other assorted Russians and Poles and others who were fighting against the Soviets, over to Stalin at the end of the war, and certain death or worse.

    When your choice is between Stalin who just starved millions of your people in a monstrous act of genocide vs. Hitler, you’d likely hold your nose and choose Hitler, at least temporarily until the bigger threat was dispatched. And so Russians call those men who fought against Stalin; Nazis. But they were just Ukrainian nationalists. Or Russians who understood the Bolshevik fiend for what it was.

    Now today, as these people who repudiate the Red Army and topple statues to Lenin and Stalin in their town squares are called Nazis for doing so by the Russians, I suspect they’re starting to say, ‘Ok, fine, we’re Nazis then’.

    For many years now I’ve considered the solution to the problems of the lingering hatreds from that evil war to be an absolute repudiation by Russia of the Soviet atrocities no less than how Germany has repudiated the atrocities of the Nazis (well, perhaps not that far, they don’t have to wallow in guilt for generations). But that is what I suspect, IMHO is what it would take to defuse this strife. But like Japan when it came to atrocities, or the US or England when it came to atrocities, or Russia when it came to atrocities, they all stubbornly refuse to accept their role and culpability. And that is why these war pigs like Kolomoisky and Nuland and McCain are able to cynically use this lingering angst to foist war. IMHO.

    Russia (Putin) needs to tell the world that the crimes of the Soviet period were crimes against humanity. And that no less than the Holocaust, the Ukrainians that died in the Holodomor and all of those innocent Russian people and others who suffered and died in the gulags or were simply machine gunned or worked to death in Siberia or elsewhere, deserve their place of honor in our memories.

    I suspect that in doing so, he could with one speech put an end to the willingness of Poland and Estonia and Ukraine to act as NATO’s stooges. It might hurt the ultra-nationalist feelings of some Russian men, but it could also prevent another world war. It is the lingering hostilities from that war that are a thorn in the friendship between Russia and her neighbors to the West.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  56. @This Is Our Home

    You can put your subtlety where you grow your mushrooms. I approach government the same way as religion: a person’s belief in something that should only apply to him and other such followers. I’m not a libertarian.

    Animals don’t have a concept of other”s property, including that of the other’s self-ownership, except by might makes right. That is the problem with about 99% of mankind – which apparently includes you. A vast majority of God Complexers who believe that their way is the only way or the best way. Absolute nonsense.

    As for Rehmat, I’m not inclined to speculate about his beliefs but how are they any worse than those of the rest of the ‘99%’? Or yours?

    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
  57. @Drapetomaniac

    As for Rehmat, I’m not inclined to speculate about his beliefs but how are they any worse than those of the rest of the ’99%’? Or yours

    He values Islamic supremacy above truth, the existence of other peoples and basic freedoms.

    The Western analogue of his belief set are the SJWs, although their numbers chop off rather fewer heads.

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  58. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says: • Website
    @JSM

    “Oh, please. Trump shot out of the gate calling for a wall to be built between us and Mexico, and Mexico gets to pay for it. Trump started this. (And God bless him for doing so!)”

    Yeah, but that was Citizen Trump moment. He was just being populist.
    He didn’t have personal animus against anyone.

    But once the contest heated up, I think he does have personal feelings about others.
    It’s no longer just about ‘business’. It is ‘personal’ cuz others have slung mud not only on his positions but his person and character.

    All contests of ideas and policies eventually turn into contests of egos, wills, butt-hurt pride, and butt-kicking animus.

  59. utu says:
    @Priss Factor

    Priss, Trump is not like Robert Redford in “Conspirators”. I like your analogies and analyses very much but sometimes you get seduced one of your ideas prematurely and then your creative analyzing inevitably must come to the stop. Sometimes when you meet Buddha on the road, kill him.

    Trump appeared on the political scene in May/June 2015 with uncompromising and unprecedented salvo on immigration and the border wall. And within a month we started hearing about Orban building a wall on Hungarian border and then the exodus of “refugees” from Turkey began. Who provides Trump with analyses and who connects the dots for him? His East European wives? Perhaps, but there must be some people of much higher caliber. There must be some former Pentagon or CIA analysts and some cabal of business and military people that is backing Trump up. Who are these people? This cabal must be strong enough that neocons and neolibs did not destroy it yet.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  60. @Rurik

    Just for your information more than 4 000 000 Ukrainians joined the Red Army in its fight against Nazi Germany. That is a historical fact. Even Ukrainians who at the beginning fought with the Nazis later changed sides. Your suggestion that one should choose Hitler over Stalin speaks volumes and makes it abundantly clear what is your position in that matter. I would also like to point out that the majority of people in Eastern Europe bear no hatred against Russia. Your arguments are simplistic, inaccurate, of the mark and betray your hate for everything Russian.

  61. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    The reason ‘Assad must go’ amounts to much more than just land grabbing the golan heights.
    I think Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the United States, explained it quite nicely to israeli media, back in 2013, also lifting any doubts about who really wants Assad to go:

    “The initial message about the Syrian issue was that we always wanted [President] Bashar Assad to go, we always preferred the bad guys who weren’t backed by Iran to the bad guys who were backed by Iran,” he said.
    This was the case, he said, even if the other “bad guys” were affiliated to al-Qaida.

    “We understand that they are pretty bad guys,” he said, adding that this designation did not apply to everyone in the Syrian opposition. “Still, the greatest danger to Israel is by the strategic arc that extends from Tehran, to Damascus to Beirut. And we saw the Assad regime as the keystone in that arc. That is a position we had well before the outbreak of hostilities in Syria. With the outbreak of hostilities we continued to want Assad to go.”

    http://www.jpost.com/Syria-Crisis/Oren-Jerusalem-has-wanted-Assad-ousted-since-the-outbreak-of-the-Syrian-civil-war-326328

    Remember also that the key group pushing for US airstrikes against Syria in the aftermath of the false flag chemical attack* in Syria, was the Zionist lobby.
    *the “intel’ saying the attack had been done by the syiran gov.forces came from… Israel.

    As I wrote before somewhere else;

    Although the war in Syria has many fathers, the main daddy is zionism and this is absolutely clear from the record.
    There are wiki cables which confirm this.

    Basically, after the idf humiliating defeat in Lebanon in 06, the zionists decided they had to disrupt the arch of resistence to israels hegemony by targeting Syria.
    This would also completely destabilize the fragile new Iraq, which had naturally(since its shia majority and Iran is a strong regional power) shifted towards Iran.
    This was a disaster, given the original zio plan was to take out Iraq and Afghanistan quickly and move on to the next targets.
    If one looks at a map, Iran was being encircled with US forces positioned on Irans Western and Eastern borders and in the Gulf Arab emirates. Unexpected armed resistance in both Iraq and Afghanistan totally upset all zio plans. The end result was a strenghtened “Shia crescent” challenging Israels hegemony.
    That is the reason for the proxy war on Syria;

    1- Deny Hezbollah the strategic depth that Syria provides it. Surround it, including in Lebanon itself, with various Wahhabi millitant groups. This would also make weapons deliveries from Iran to Hezb much more difficult.
    2- Create reason for ZUSA TO interfere in Iraq again, by propping up ISIS/DAESH.
    3- All had gone accoding to plan, the israelis could annex the golan and perhaps even more syrian land.

    If all had gone according to plan, all of Irans few regional allies would be either destroyed or severely weakened. Iran itself would remain totally isolated.
    But the Zio plans have not gone according to the script. The US led coalition had expected the Syrian government to collapse quickly. They badly underestimated the support level Assad has and the resilience of Syrias armed forces.
    The Syrian government and military, which, unlike what msm presstitutes claim, is sunni majority, have continued to resist and function.
    They control most of the provincial capitals, in part or in total; 12 out of 14.

    • Agree: geokat62
    • Replies: @Rurik
  62. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    It’s not really like the ukrainians( or all the other ethnic groups for that matter) had any CHOICE.
    They were conscripts & if you were living under the Stalin regime, there was no escape from the red army.
    Obviously you also ignore the hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians( and others, including Russians) who chose to fight against the red army, often as volunteers.
    Your arguments are the ones which are simplistic, inaccurate & biased.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  63. L.K says:

    Prof.Kevin MacDonald, a specialist on Jewish ethnic activism and influence in the West, and one of the few scholars to do so openly and frankly, has written several articles re Jewish hostility towards post-Yeltsin Russia.
    In a piece titled ‘The Neocons Versus Russia’, after talking about how pissed the jewish neocons became after Russia quickly blitzed their zio puppet Georgia in 08, he continues;

    The other side of the equation is that neocons have been hostile toward Russia. They supported the war that resulted in independence of Kosovo from Serbia, an ally of Russia. They also support Chechnyan independence from Russia, NATO membership for Eastern European countries formerly dominated by the USSR, and the aggressive US policy of providing missiles to Poland and the Czech Republic.

    Why the neocon hostility toward Russia? We could certainly imagine that if Russia was controlled by the Israel Lobby and Jewish interests in the same way that the United States is, this would not be happening. Indeed, a major neocon complaint is that Russia delayed sanctions against Israel’s arch-enemy Iran and has supplied Iran with nuclear material as well as weaponry designed to protect its nuclear installations[Russia also supports Syria, which the zionists wish to be regime-changed].

    Quite simply, we think that neocon hostility stems from the fact that Russia under Vladimir Putin proved to be far more nationalistic than is good for the Jews or for Israel. A landmark event was Putin’s crackdown on the oligarchs — that small, overwhelmingly Jewish group of tycoons that came to control the industrial base of the USSR during the shift to capitalism. The oligarchs pumped huge amounts of money into the campaign to keep Boris Yeltsin in office and enrich themselves. They also supported Putin at first, but Putin gradually cut into the dominance of the oligarchs.

    • Replies: @utu
  64. Svigor says:

    There must be some former Pentagon or CIA analysts and some cabal of business and military people that is backing Trump up. Who are these people? This cabal must be strong enough that neocons and neolibs did not destroy it yet.

    I don’t follow. Maybe you could unpack this? I see no reason Trump’s continued success means there has to be some CIA/Pentagon/oligarch cabal behind him. More the opposite.

    • Replies: @Bad memories
  65. Svigor says:

    The whole beauty of Trump so far is that the establishment’s been doing everything they usually do to destroy dissidents, and Trump’s still way out ahead of the GOP pack.

  66. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    I am familiar with the argument alleging that neocons are really Trotskyists. It is weak to the point of inanity. Association with members of a splinter group from 1939, that was denounced by Leon Trotsky himself, does not a Trotskyist make. It’s like calling anyone who ever associated with a former Communist a Communist.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @geokat62
    , @utu
  67. @Svigor

    I imagine they are thinking of resurrecting the lone gunmen again.

  68. @Rurik

    “After several ECJC board members resigned in protest, Kolomyski quit the ECJC and, together with fellow Ukrainian oligarch Vadim Rabinovich, founded the European Jewish Union”

    So, Kolomoiskyii tried to buy his way in and was rejected by a Jewish organisation., which does them great credit. Jews are harder to buy than Ukrainians.

  69. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    4 000 000 Ukrainians joined the Red Army in its fight against Nazi Germany.

    how do you think they felt about how Stalin had starved twice as many of their fellow countrymen and neighbors and family members to death in a deliberate campaign of genocide? How many of their loved ones died slowly and excruciatingly after the NKVD came in and confiscated all of their food and livestock? And then watched them all starve to death .. the stories are wrenching. Now how did they feel about donning the uniform of the very regime that had starved to death their women and children do you suppose?

    Why do you think there’s so much hatred today?

    Even Ukrainians who at the beginning fought with the Nazis later changed sides.

    If you were an Ukrainian, why would you fight for the regime who had done that to the Kulaks? Unless you didn’t have a choice.

    It was a monstrous time. When men were forced to side with regimes they hated in order to kill an even worse regime. It was a terrible clusterfuck of betrayals and intrigue. People were ground up in it like so much meat. Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, German, Estonian and so many others.

    It’s absurd to say I have a “hate for everything Russian”. My posts testify to that. There are some here who’ve accused me of hating the Ukrainian people by my defense of Putin and condemnation of the stooges in Kyiv today.

    My agenda is simple, like my admittedly simplistic posts attests to – I want to prevent more of the madness that was perpetrated in the last century by NY bankers and Zionists and their Anglo toadies, Churchill and FDR, Bush and Blair, Obama and Cameron.

    That’s my agenda and it is simplistic but it’s sincere. And I harbor nothing but good will towards ALL the people of that tragic region. Except for the stooges in Kyiv and assorted war pigs and provocateurs in the pocket of the ZioUS. That’s all.

    I wish Putin God speed in his efforts against the Fiend that today has my country by the throat, just like it did Russia during that terrible war.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Regnum Nostrum
  70. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    Although the war in Syria has many fathers, the main daddy is zionism and this is absolutely clear from the record.

    not just the war in Syria LK, but WWI, WWII, obviously all the subsequent wars between Israel and the Muslim states in the Middle East following those world wars that put Israel on the map from the moment Lord Balfour signed that declaration.

    Then we can also consider Reagans adventure in Lebanon and Desert Storm and it’s follow up with the Shock and Awe of Bush the lessor’s WMD war on Iraq, and the war on Libya and the war on Syria. And all the hostility towards Iran and Russia up to and including the war in Ukraine today. All of it foisted by and for Zionists. All of it.

    The Syrian government and military, which, unlike what msm presstitutes claim, is sunni majority, have continued to resist and function.

    Now this LK is not what I’ve come to understand. Not that it changes everything you say which seems true. But I’m under the impression that the Alawites are of some other sect of Islam and are not Sunni. (which doesn’t mean that Sunnis are not fighting for Assad. If they’re sane, they of course would be ; )

    • Replies: @L.K
  71. Art says:

    Russia in Syria with 50 aircraft fighting ISIS is small potatoes to a war between Iran and Saudi.

    A Sunni/Shea war would engulf everyone with an interest the ME.

    It is time for cool heads – especially Russia and the US government.

    p.s. An all out Sunni/Shea war is a Zionist Jew wet dream. The corks are popping in Israel, NYC, and Jew DC.

  72. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    IDK, thirdeye,

    Sometimes when I see the way the US and the West in general are all rushing to demand equality of outcome and are destroying the Middle and Working Class as fast as they possibly can while demanding political correctness across the board in the universities and media, and are demonizing the “dead white men” who created this country and the Magna Carta and invented human freedom; – as racists and slavers, while holding up degenerates like Miley and Caitlyn as heroes while impugning all the traditions of the West as racist and vile, with a openly racist man with communists sympathies in the White House .. saying that our government is in the hands of Trotskyists just doesn’t seem like such a leap to me.

  73. annamaria says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Agree. When patria is under a deadly threat, the people stand for survival of their civilization. Hence the concept of Fifth Column.

  74. geokat62 says:
    @Thirdeye

    I am familiar with the argument alleging that neocons are really Trotskyists. It is weak to the point of inanity.

    Could you explain why you think it’s weak when the neocons themselves are willing to admit to their Trotskyist roots? Here are just two, among many, references:

    1. The Trotskyist pedigree of neoconservatism is no secret; the original neocon, Irving Kristol, acknowledges it with relish: “I regard myself to have been a young Trostkyite and I have not a single bitter memory.” Nor is there any doubt about the influence — one might almost say hegemony — of “former Communists” on the post-war conservative movement. Just read the words of one neocon, Seymour Martin Lipset:

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2001/11/daniel-mccarthy/springtime-for-trotsky/

    2. You can see why these NR types feel so threatened by Ron Paul. He represents a return to the small-government, decentralized conservatism popular before the Trotskyites took over the American “right.”

    http://blog.nj.com/njv_paul_mulshine/2012/04/good_piece_on_the_trotskyite_r.html

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  75. utu says:
    @L.K

    Kevin MacDonald seems to be very hostile to Catholic and also Orthodox churches. So he does not mention that the resurrection of Christianity in Putin’s Russia that may reverse the moral degeneration caused by JudeoBolshevic regime is also a very important factor in hostility towards Putin Russia by Jewish neocons and neoliberals. Perhaps he does not understands it because he shares similar hostility. Both neocons and neoliberals have Trostkyist roots. Trocki was rejected by Stalin who promoted rather traditional morality (minus religion) and nationalism. Putin’s Russia seems to follow the similar path plus Christianity.

  76. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    Did Hitlerite Nazi invaders commit Genocide of Jews, Slavs, and other Untermenschen.
    10s of millions of them.

    Yes or No ?

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @L.K
  77. utu says:
    @Thirdeye

    “alleging that neocons are really Trotskyists. It is weak to the point of inanity” – Neocons with Trotskyist share the dream of world domination of spreading neoconservative revolution to every country. Trotskyists were hoping to do it on the back of Russia but were outplayed and kicked out by nationalists like Stalin. Now neocons are doing their conquest on the back of America where does not seem to be anybody to do a Stalin job on them. Unless Trump?

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  78. @This Is Our Home

    That would make him a bad person. Like most everyone else.

    There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man’s notion that he less savage than the other savages. ~Mark Twain, Following the Equator

    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
  79. Seraphim says:
    @Rehmat

    It is really important when you pretend to criticize someone’s ‘rants’, to get all your facts right. For example, you must know that the name of the first President of Israel was Chaim Weizmann, not Wiessman. He was not “president of Russian Socialist Party”, for the simple reason that (besides the fact that a “Russian Socialist Party” never existed) he left Russia at age 18 and never returned.
    It is a proof that you do not know what you are talking about and that is probably the reason that The Saker banned you from his website. As far as I could see most of the comments on Saker’s site are made by adults who have something real to say, not sweeping broadsides of BS like “Russia like China is still a colonial power. It’s still occupying several Muslim lands, such as, Crimea, Chechnya, Sochi, Siberia, Dagestan, and Ingushetia”.

  80. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    there was no such thing as a Nazi during the Austro-Hungarian era.

    You need to look a little deeper than what’s been handed to your propaganda-addled brain. Nazi ideology was rooted in the revanchist nationalism that was emerging within the Austro-Hungarian and Russian empires in the late Nineteenth and early Twentieth Centuries. The regimes of Austria-Hungary and Russia fostered versions of it for their own imperial purposes. Austria-Hungary fostered a version among Galicians, directed against ethnic Russians and Jews in the Ukraine. The first concentration camp was set up by A-H at Terezin in the current day Czech Republic. Its targets were ethnic Russians and it wasn’t because they were Bolsheviks. It was because A-H had its own ideas about conquering the east for Lebensraum. Russia fostered a version among ethnic Russians directed against non-Russians and Jews in the Ukraine and political opponents of the regime in general. The radical Russian nationalist, fanatically Czarist, Black Hundreds were mentors of German Nazis in tactics, ideology, and style. An English translation of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion hoax was presented to Henry Ford by Boris Brasol, a representative of the Czar’s government, during World War I.

    The Ukrainian “genocide” of the 1930s is another bit of propaganda you’ve fallen for. Yes, there was mass starvation in the early 1930s in the Ukrainian SSR and in Russia proper. It had a number of causes, ranging from bureaucratic incompetence to crop failure to deliberate destruction of food resources and attacks on collective farms. Estimates of 3.5, and between 4.5 and 5 million excess deaths throughout the entire Soviet Union from 1926 to 1939 have been provided by western demographers based on actual population data. http://www.campin.me.uk/Politics/purging-stalin.txt That’s quite a different story than the 7 million propaganda figure for the Ukraine promoted by Ukrainian nationalists. The 7 million figure is based on nothing but a desire to one-up the genocide of Jews by a convenient million to push a bogus narrative to the forefront.

    Good of you to provide the link to the White movement wiki. It admits that they were absolute monarchists hostile to Jews and non-Russian nationalities within the empire. No wonder millions fought against them.

    and imposed commie genocide and slavery for half a century.

    All you need to know about the Nazis vs. the Bolshevik Soviets you can find in a forest in Poland.

    Commie genocide and slavery for half a century? Oh please, do tell about this genocide from 1945-1985. How many millions killed? Which nationalities? It’s something you must have special knowledge of. You do understand the meanings of the words “genocide” and “slavery,” don’t you?

    You might be interested to find out that a Polish team of forensic anthropologists recently investigated the Katyn grave sites and determined that they were the work of the SS. That’s a Polish team, in case you didn’t understand.

    but they weren’t under Russian rule, they were under Soviet rule, and that is a very different thing, because the Russian people were also forced to wear that yoke.

    They were under Russian imperial rule before they were under Soviet rule. The Ukrainian SSR actually had a lot of resources directed its way by the central Soviet government. The territories east of the Dniepr and the black sea coast were added to it by Lenin to gain the loyalty of west Ukrainians to the Soviet Union. Stalin annexed parts of Hungary, Romainia, and Slovakia to the Ukrainian SSR. The industrialization resulted in a huge boost to the Ukrainian economy after the WWII. It was fully integrated into the Soviet defense and aerospace industries. Kruschev was a Ukrainian and on his watch Crimea was added to the Ukrainian SSR. The trajectory of Ukraine since independence suggests that Soviet largesse to the Ukrainian SSR was the main thing keeping it from turning into the social and economic shithole that it’s become today.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Rurik
  81. @Drapetomaniac

    That would make him a bad person. Like most everyone else.

    There are many humorous things in the world; among them, the white man’s notion that he less savage than the other savages. ~Mark Twain, Following the Equator

    ‘Bad’ and ‘savage’ like everything are a matter of degree, and he is much worse and much more Savage than an average person anywhere.

  82. Thirdeye says:
    @utu

    Worldwide revolution leading to communism was Marxist orthodoxy, not dreamed up by Trotsky. Nobody ever thought it should be “on the back of Russia.” It was projected to occur as a result of conditions in capitalist economies. The end result was also foreseen as a decline of the state, not the super-statist worldwide system dominated by international banking that is the wet dream of the Neocons.

    Here’s a thread I found that dispatches all this “Neocon=Trotskyist” nonsense pretty effectively.

    http://www.politicsforum.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=156971

  83. Thirdeye says:
    @geokat62

    Find one, just one, Neocon who advocates for worldwide proletarian revolution on the orthodox Marxist model. Trotsky adhered to that to the point of rigidity. If you don’t know the difference between that and the Neocon advocacy of unfettered power for an international financial system enforced by highly militarized capitalist states, there is no helping you.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  84. geokat62 says:
    @Thirdeye

    If you don’t know the difference,… there is no helping you.

    If you don’t know the difference between “Trotskyist” and “Trotskyist roots,” there is no helping you.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  85. @L.K

    Pure nonsense. Ukrainian partisans, 250 000 of them, started to fight long before the Red Army reached Ukraine. Nobody was forcing them. As far as Ukrainians fighting for Hitler are concerned I did mentioned them. Hundreds of thousands is pure conjecture on your part. Historical records only mention thousands and a lot of these changed sides very fast.

    • Replies: @L.K
  86. annamaria says:
    @Thirdeye

    “…a Polish team of forensic anthropologists recently investigated the Katyn grave sites and determined that they were the work of the SS. That’s a Polish team…”

    http://www.stalinsociety.org/2015/05/07/an-interview-with-prof-grover-furr-on-the-katyn-massacre/
    “..the latest discoveries made by a joint Polish-Ukrainian archaeological group in 2011-2012 in the Ukrainian town of Volodymyr-Volynskiy, directly related to the Katyn massacre incident. The group discovered a mass grave site identified by the specialists as a typical mass grave of “German manufacture.” Citing Dr. Dominika Siemińska, the head of the Polish archeological team, Professor Furr underscored that the victims buried in the mass grave were murdered no earlier than late 1941 or 1942. Furthermore, 98.67 percent of shells found on the site were of 1941 German manufacture, according to the Polish report. Remains of women and children had also been found in the mass grave… It should be noted that German ammunition was found at other sites related to the Katyn case.
    Remarkably, Joseph Goebbels wrote in his Diaries on May 8, 1943: “Unfortunately, German ammunition has been found in the graves at Katyn… It is essential that this incident remains top secret. If it were to come to the knowledge of the enemy the whole Katyn affair would have to be dropped.”
    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2013/11/false-flag.html

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Avery
  87. @Rurik

    As far as the famine is concerned the jury is still out. There were more than one factor at play. Bad harvest, kulaks hoarding wheat while their countrymen went starving and perhaps Stalin’s policy was a contributing factors as well. Obviously those 4 000 000 who joined Red Army bore no grudge against Stalin. Do not try to tell me that they were forced to join, they could have left long before the Red Army reached Ukraine. What about those 250 000 Ukrainian partisans who started their fight while the Red Army was nowhere in sight. Those Ukrainians who fought with Hitler and changed sides did so voluntarily after witnessing the atrocities committed by the Germans. Quite obviously Stalin’s so called dictatorship was preferable to them than “freedom” under Germans. You exaggerate the level of hatred. Of course there are many Ukrainians who hate Russia as there are many Ukrainians who hate Poles and I am sure there are many Ukrainians who hate each other. Is that Stalin’s fault as well. I do not like people who hate others and I do not like those who give them reason to hate but it is rarely just one man’s fault.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  88. Rurik says:
    @Avery

    Hi Avery,

    Did Hitlerite Nazi invaders commit Genocide of Jews, Slavs, and other Untermenschen.
    10s of millions of them.

    Yes or No ?

    I don’t know the exact details, but from what I do know, Jews and gays were persecuted and often murdered, Slavs were denigrated as Untermenschen and many millions of Russians and Jews and assorted Slavic peoples died or were murdered in that terrible juggernaut between communism and fascism during and after the second world war. The Nazis did commit atrocities and I believe they were also rather arrogant in their new-found Aryan pride.

    Who was the worset? The Bolsheviks. As they proved in Katyn or Ukraine during a forced famine, or in Hungary under Bela Kun, or at the gulags or in the way they treated those unfortunate souls who were unlucky enough to be anywhere near the Red Army advance.

    But does that negate the crimes and atrocities of the Nazis? No, of course not. And it’s understandable that there are people who’re alarmed at these Ukrainians who’re using Nazi-type symbolisms and belligerence. But I certainly don’t consider them a Hitlerian threat. Like so many others in Greece with their Golden Dawn and others, the uber-nationalism of the Nazis is seductive when you’re watching your country and any future for your progeny being wiped away before your eyes, and you blame unaccountable bureaucrats in Brussels who’re more interested in lucre from the international money men than in what they’re doing to your country. So some of these misguided youths and others who should know better, put on the symbols and accouterments of a failed ideology. (Ironically, the people who most resemble the Nazis today are the Zionists- who’ve taken all the worst that the Nazis had to offer and embraced it all with a chosen-race gusto).

    There were atrocities and horrors on all sides. More Germans (old men, women and children) were starved or burned alive or raped and butchered at the end of the war and afterwards than died during the war.

    Millions of Russians died, and not just at the hand of the Wehrmacht or roving Einsatzgruppen squads, but also from the tender mercies of the genocidal fiend Stalin and his hate-crazed Jewish henchmen at the NKVD.

    Now imagine you’re a typical Ukrainian 30 yr. old man in 1942. And your mother and sister and grandparents were systematically starved to death by Stalin’s Jewish rat Genrikh Yagoda. Now imagine the Red Army is advancing on one side and will likely send you to the gulags for being intelligent, and on the other side are German fascists who treat your ancient lands and people like it is all theirs, to do with as they please. From either side you’ll be conscripted to kill the other, and you have no where to run. That is how so many millions of men found themselves, just as today, if you’re living in Donbass or Odessa, you’re being expected to choose between Jewish war mongers from the thoroughly corrupt and anti-Ukrainian EU who’re arming and funding neo-Nazis, vs. the Russians who’ve never even acknowledged the crimes that were done to your people during that terrible war. That’s how so many people are finding themselves today. As far as I can see. And the most glaring thing about it all is the thunderous silence coming from the (missing) voices for peace and sanity.

    With exceptions like PCR here in the US and a few others.

  89. @Rurik

    Boy why don’t you just shut up. I was 15 years old when the war ended and we greeted the Red Army. Your constant belittling of Nazi crimes, your pathetic attempts to always deflect attention from the facts and your ignorance of history are not just annoying they are outright disgusting. You live in the US , are obviously young and most of the knowledge, or better say misinformation concerning Second World War, seem to come from some embittered old Ukrainian, possibly your parents. I lived happily under socialism till 1989 and did not notice any genocide from the government. As far as Stalin is concerned pretty much all of todays politicians could envy his popularity. Since you claim to dislike bankers I am not sure why you also dislike a man who would throw them all into a gulag.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Rurik
    , @RadicalCenter
  90. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @utu

    silly to take one at best..coincidence and extend it to claim that trump has some cabal hidden…terrorizing the neocons who cant seem to destroy it.
    trump calling for immigration halts and border walls hardly proves it…….refugees have always been an issue long before trump made MEXICAN immigrants the foundation of his campaign.
    it not only had nothing to do with TURKEY….ORBAN…HUNGARY….or anything else but a singular way to corral the anger americans have against immigration..policy.
    in fact i doubt trump up till the point when he could no longer afford not to know…had even heard of the middle east…which would put him in line with the majority of his supporters.

  91. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    Wow Thirdeye, what an avalanche of horse shit in one post! That was amazing.

    So now I guess Nazism didn’t start with Adolf Hitler and his National Socialists NSDAP, but started somewhere back in time when the first gentile looked cross-eyed at a Jew. Lol.

    And then your vile revisionism of the Holodomor as just a little blip due to the incompetence of the Ukrainian peasant, (who were some of the best and most successful farmers in the world until the Jewish Bolsheviks starved them to death) I suppose your ilk would describe what’s been done to Zimbabwe as a case of some racist white farmers who couldn’t adapt to the transformative progress of a non-racist government, eh?

    You sound exactly like the way the NYT reported on the forced famine at the time. They sent in their liar Walter Duranty to “report” on what was happening, and as there was starvation all around, that POS came back and “reported” that “Any report of a famine in Russia is today an exaggeration or malignant propaganda.”

    here’s this POSs Wiki page

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Duranty

    nice, eh?

    And Hitler didn’t invent concentration camps, that was done by the British during the Boar war to round up and kill the families of the Dutch farmers who had created that country and made it thrive, but then when Oppenheimer got word of diamonds and Gold, the always dutiful Brits went and slaughtered the rightful owners and used concentration camps to do it. Just a nice historical tidbit.

    As for Katyn, yes, that was another lie that was told at the time by the NYT, that the atrocity was committed by the Nazis, when it was the Jewish NKVD that had done it. Can you imagine the Jewish NYT lying about something like that?! I know! It’s almost too much, huh?

    Here’s the Wiki page on Katyn.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

    You do understand the meanings of the words “genocide” and “slavery,” don’t you?

    Yes I do Thirdeye. Indeed I do. Genocide is the attempt to exterminate or shove aside or render asunder the genetic identity of a people. One extreme example might be the way the Cro-Magnons replaced the Neanderthals on the European continent some 40 – 80 thousand years ago. Another more contemporary example might be the way the whites of Zimbabwe are being ran out of their country, or the way the Palestinians are being driven into open-air concentration camps and ritualistically slaughtered. Or the way Iraqis are being butchered and more to the point, having their lands polluted with DU, that will specifically cause birth defects both visible and invisible for generations to come. Or the way the Jewish Bolsheviks rounded up all the people in Poland that they had access to with any education or prominence in that society, and then tied their hands, had them stand at the edge of a pit, and shot them in the back of the head by the thousands. By doing so, the Jews hoped to ‘cut the head’ off of Polish society, presumably to better control it, but also presumably for reasons of rendering Poland a less sublime future.

    Lots of genocide. The Jews of Europe were genocided by the Nazis who wanted them out of Europe for good. The Kulaks were genocided by the Jewish Bolshiviks who wanted to slice the head off of an intelligent and hard working and productive people. This is the same reason there are forces at work today trying to flood all white countries with non-whites. The intention is to delute the white gene in an overt and obvious agenda of genociding the white gene off the face of the planet. Duh. Lots and lots of genocide. All those scores of millions that Mao slaughtered. All those millions that were butchered by the Khmer Rouge because they were capable and intelligent and not likely to want to live as slaves.

    So now lets talk about slavery, shall we?

    Slavery is when you force someone to work for others. You may be forcing them to work for you, like the white plantation owners in the South, or you might be forcing them to work for the state, like all communist slavery ultimately is. You can have slavery hard, like prisoners in rock pits, or slavery light like Obama’s socialism, but any time you force someone to work for others, it is slavery, and the very definition of it.

    As an aside, one of the examples I fine egregious today is the slavery of “stop loss’ in the US military, where they tell the soldiers they can’t leave. That is slavery. Did you know that the US kept over a hundred thousand German men after the war was over for purposes of slavery?

    Soviet largesse to the Ukrainian SSR was the main thing keeping it from turning into the social and economic shithole that it’s become today.

    Ahh, I see! Communist slavery was good for the people of Ukraine, (and presumably everywhere else they imposed this slave’s creed). Who knew?!

    And I suppose the Palestinians ought to thank the Jews, huh. For offering them a chance to work at SodaStream and serve their masters?

    And the Russians who suffered under generations of Jewish communism, only to be looted and impoverished under the Jewish “capitalism” of the oligarchs are just unbelievably ungrateful for all that was done for them.

    One can really get a glimpse into some seriously twisted psyches and deranged fanatics at these forums, I tell ya.

  92. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    The famine was deliberate and it was imposed on the most successful farmers at the time because they were successful. Because they were intelligent and hard working and proficient. It was assumed correctly that they were not the type of people who would make good slaves and mindless drones of the new “worker’s paradise” where everything was owned “collectively”, but distributed based on who Stalin and his henchmen thought would make the best orcs, while starving to death anyone who didn’t want to toe the new line. This included all people of good conscience, intelligence or character. They had to go to make room for the new proletariat, who would do as they were told.

    And no, all of this madness was not the work and creation of one man. But rather the accumulated angst and anger at the privilege and incompetence of the Tsar, who was decidedly not up to the challenges of his day, and where conditions were insufferable for the masses, and the burgeoning rage throughout the countryside at glaring discrepancies between the have’s and have not’s. This and also the hostility between the Jews and the Russian aristocracy. Then you have all the privileged wealth of Europe all plotting and intriguing against each other and you get the madness of that war.

    But let’s just look at your main premise. That the Ukrainians fought on the side of the Soviets because the Nazis were just worse. Right? Then why are the Ukrainians today becoming neo-Nazis and making salutes and chanting Hitlerian slogans?

    Which is it? That the Ukrainians of WWII were good and fought on the side of the Soviets (who really didn’t genocide or starve all that many Kulaks to death as they say, and it really wasn’t that bad after all), and so those Ukrainians who fought for the Red Army were ‘good’ Ukrainians because they were fighting against the evil Nazis, yes? But that today these former good Ukrainians who were good and liked communism are today bad because they now like Nazism?

    Is that basically what you’re saying?

    For me, anyone who looks at the Holodomor and tries to denigrate what those people suffered (and why) is a really disgusting POS. Not because they’re deluded, that would make if forgivable, but because they’re the type of people that would like to see it happen again. IMHO.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  93. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    Keep spinning, deflecting, and improving your revisionist message covering up Nazi crimes against Humanity. The more you churn with misinformation and disinformation, the more convincing your revisionism becomes.
    Right.

    Here is one to work on: in another thread I proposed the following alternative explanation.

    {“Savage Ukrainian mothers holding children,invaded Germany and started savagely murdering defenseless German soldiers minding their own business. Fortunately, some brave Aryans grabbed the rifles from the invading Untermenschen, and heroically defended their Deutschland, Deutschland über alles”}


    I think you can do better: you have more practice in that sort of thing (revisionism).
    Won’t you please give it a try ?
    No doubt many readers @UNZ.com would appreciate the effort.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  94. @Rurik

    Trying to convince you is like trying to convince a little girl that Little Red Riding Hood does not exist. You are not worth the effort and time. Believe what you want and enjoy your delusions. For those who are still open to argument I suggest the following document on you tube.

    There are many supporting one side of the argument or the other. I firmly believe that intelligent people are able to draw their own conclusions.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  95. @Rurik

    Everybody lies except Rurik.

  96. @Rurik

    Rurik’s quote “One can really get a glimpse into some seriously twisted psyches and deranged fanatics at these forums, I tell ya.”
    It takes one to know one. Seems to me you are out of arguments hence the insults. Coming from a Nazi apologist they are meaningless.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  97. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    Yes, Alawites are not Sunni and, together with various shia denominations, are not even considered to be muslims by the wahhabi/salafi school of “thought”, sponsored mainly by the kingdom of apes, Saudi Scarabia.

    Although Assad is an alawi, the syrian gov. is not just president Assad. That is what i meant.
    Most of the high ranking officials who make up the government are Sunni.
    Some of them;
    Asmaa` Al-Akras-Al-Assad, First Lady – SUNNI
    Dr. Najaah Al-‘Attaar – Vice President – SUNNI
    Waleed Al-Mu’allim – Foreign Minister – SUNNI
    Dr. Faysal Miqdaad – Deputy Foreign Minister – SUNNI
    Maj. Gen. Muhammad Ibraaheem Al-Sha’aar – Interior Minister and heads 3 security services – SUNNI
    Lt. General Fahd Jaassim Al-Furayj – Defense Minister – SUNNI
    Lt. General Talaal Tlaas – Deputy Defense Minister – SUNNI
    Dr. Waa’il Naadir Al-Halaqi – Prime Minister – SUNNI
    ‘Abdullah Al-Ahmar – Deputy Secretary of the Ba’ath Party Pan Arab Command – SUNNI
    Lt. General ‘Ali ‘Abdullah Ayyoob – Chief of the Syrian General Staff – ALAWI
    ‘Umraan Al-Zu’bi – Minister of Information – SUNNI
    Dr. Bashshaar Al-Ja’afari – Syrian Permanent Delegate to the U.N. – SUNNI
    Muhammad Jihaad Al-Lahhaam – Speak of the Parliament – SUNNI
    Maj. General Muhammad Mahalla – Director of Military Intelligence – SUNNI
    Maj. General Nazeeh Hassoon – Director of Political Security – SUNNI
    Lt. Gen. Ali Mamlook – Special National Security Adviser to the President – SUNNI
    Dr. Buthayna Sha’baan – Special Advisor to the President on Foreign Affairs and the Palace spokeswoman – ALAWI

    Sunnis of all ethnicities make up some 74% of Syrias population. Their slice of the armed forces/NDF and security is less than that, but it is still over 50%.

    Msm presstitutes have been lying to us to a large degree, trying to portray this conflict as an alawi minority dominating over the Sunni majority and suggesting, falsely, that those who fight on the side of the syrian gov. are only Alawites and other minorities, such as Christians.

    It is true though that the militants are all sunni(syrians and foreigners from some 90 countries), generally of the wahhabi/salafi flavor. There r no moderates.
    Hope that helps.
    Best regards

  98. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Regnum Nostrum:
    ” I was 15 years old when the war ended and we greeted the Red Army”

    Even if that is true, how is that supposed to help your case, Mr? This means absolutely NOTHING.
    Except that you are obviously a Communist.
    Your hero Stalin was a mass murderer, and this is well documented, even from the only partially opened soviet archives.
    Your hero killed more Slavs( and other ethnic groups too, like the chechens) than anyone else, and a lot of them in peacetime no less.

  99. L.K says:
    @Avery

    Short reply to your loaded question.

    No, they did NOT.

    • Replies: @Avery
  100. Rurik says:
    @Avery

    I proposed the following alternative explanation.

    {“Savage Ukrainian mothers holding children,invaded Germany and started savagely murdering defenseless German soldiers minding their own business.

    wait a minute, I thought is was the Soviets who were genociding Ukrainians?

    Now it’s Germans?

    Can’t you guys keep your genocidal thugs straight?

    Did or didn’t the Soviets deliberately starve to death millions of the world’s most successful farmers?

    Just answer that one question Avery, and then we can take if from there, OK?

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    , @Avery
  101. L.K says:
    @annamaria

    Annamaria!!! Are you kidding me???

    Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev confirmed in 1990 that the USSR had, indeed, committed the crime in Katyn.
    Thousands of other poles were murdered in other locations, as confirmed by declassified soviet documents(after the fall of the soviet union).

    Annamaria, there are AIR PHOTOS dated from before the German invasion which show the Katyn mass graves! As for German ammo, the NKVD used it, there is no mystery there.

    Interestingly, RT published a story about the fact that the US government knew the Katyn massacre had been committed by the Stalin regime( as per soviet documents) but decided to bury the story, which could have had bad repercussions on the US/Soviet alliance.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Thirdeye
  102. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    I see!.. the good old noble Uncle Joe Stalin tried to help the Ukrainians!, who were just too dumb and incompetent to be able to farm. And so as happens from time to time, they had a famine, and good ol’ Uncle Joe did what he could. But with all those evil Nazis trying to genocide everyone who didn’t have blue eyes, there was nothing the benevolent communists could do. Huh?

    But guess what? There are a lot of people who actually do know what happened during those days. And they’re the people who’re acting like Nazis today in Ukraine, because they understand all too well people like you. And how you’d blame their ancestors for the horrors the NKVD visited upon them.

    So my point, is that not all people are like you, and not all people would denigrate the terrible suffering those people endured. And many people like myself don’t want to see more of the same. So that’s why we want the world to come to grips with what was done. And give those people a decent burial, and let them rest in peace. And let’s all repudiate that kind of thing so it never happens again. OK?

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  103. @L.K

    It means that I was an eyewitness. It means that Rurik’s claim about everybody running scared when the Red Army arrived is nonsense. Only the Nazis and Nazi collaborators were running scared but what can you know. If that has no meaning for you I cannot help it but rest assured that your immature outlook has no meaning for me. I am not sure how you concluded that Stalin is my hero but I would never equate him with Hitler. Unlike you I did not see the soviet archives but I doubt the claims. You forget that I lived at the same time and had first hand experience but of course that means nothing to you because all you have been fed since birth was propaganda and you are unable to recognize it.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  104. @Tom_R

    Never heard these ideas before. Very, very interesting. Especially the angle about inviting white Americans (known before about the 1960s simply as “Americans”) to desert the military and defect to Russia. But Russia will need to spend the resources to give those defectors a very good life, materially, in the RF for the rest of their lives, and try to protect them from the inevitable US attempts to kill or capture them.

  105. @L.K

    Right on, LK. The USSR was a savage, cruel, anti-freedom, anti-prosperity regime, even worse than the current U.S. Leviathan government but thankfully lacking the surveillance technology that is available to evil governments today.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  106. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    I’m not a Nazi apologist. I have tones of vitriol I’ve sent that way and continue to do so. But neither am I a Bolshevik apologist. And while we’ve all seen billions of movies about the evil Nazis and the Holocaust, how many movies have the Jews in Hollywood made about the Holodomor, eh?

    So if it sounds like I’m saying the Nazis were not as bad as the commies, it’s because that’s what I’m saying, when you count all the dead and horrors up.

    Now that may not be the way some Jews sympathetic to communism see it (Trotskyites and others), being as they might consider all the tens of millions of gentiles who were butchered or starved to death as deserving it, but it would be silly for me to agree with them now, wouldn’t it?

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  107. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    I do not belittle Nazi crime, but neither do I belittle the crimes of Stalin, like the Holodomor, for instance, or the atrocities at Katny or the untold millions sent to the gulags, or all of the misery that writers like Alexander Solzhenitsyn or even Ayn Rand wrote of.

    The Bolsheviks were at least as genocidal in their hatreds as the Nazis were, as their victims attest to. Hollywood movies or no Hollywood movies.

    http://rense.com/general39/allied.htm

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  108. @RadicalCenter

    Well since you are so well informed how many years have spent in that savage, cruel Soviet Union and in what years. If you lived there could you describe some of the savagery and cruelty suffered by you personally.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  109. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    I saw annamarine’s post and assumed she was setting him straight. Hard to believe she got that one wrong.

    It was a genocidal crime, because it tried to cut the head off the Polish people, and how does that go? “kill the best of the gentiles” Anyways yea, when the German army blew through the Soviet occupation troops in the area and discovered the atrocity, they invited the International Red Cross and other officials to examine what had been done. It was clear, and has been subsequently verified beyond all doubt, that the Soviets had committed this terrible crime. But at the time, when it fist became known, the allies did what the allies always do. They lied about it and said it was done by the Germans. No surprise there. But to think that there’s still people out there that don’t know the truth, is staggering when you consider it is so many years latter, and the truth is well known for any who want to check it out.

  110. annamaria says:
    @L.K

    Stalinist regime was, indeed, murderous.
    Other examples of murderous men:
    Winston Churchill blamed for one million deaths in India famine.
    President H. S. Truman had ordered “the most dreadful slaughter of civilians in modern history.” The Hiroshima and Nagasaki bombing had destroyed hundreds of thousands of humans at once and produced radiation-related diseases for generations afterward.
    President G.W.Bush had ordered an illegal invasion of a sovereign state, which led to the current conflagration in the Middle East. Millions of people have lost their homes, relatives, livelihood and hundreds of thousands, of all ages, lost their lives.

    Should not we better focus on the living murderers to prevent more sufferings and loss of lives due to state violence?

    • Replies: @L.K
  111. @Regnum Nostrum

    Did you live in nazi Germany? Did you live in pol pot’s regime? Do you live in america? If not, then according to your logic, you can’t comment on any of them.

    I feel sympathetic to Russia and Russians until I deal with borderline retards like you.

    But then, unlike you, I know that NOT all people with a certain viewpoint, or of a certain nationality, such as Russians or pro-Russians, are the same. Accordingly, I don’t blame others for your inability or refusal to reason.

    Can you clarify whether you have lived in all the countries on which you have ever expressed an opinion?

  112. @Rurik

    Good to see you here, Rurik. And thank you for correcting apologists for soviet atrocities.

  113. @Rurik

    WISH I COULD UPVOTE THIS. GOD BLESS YOU.

    Rest in peace, all victims of cruelty everywhere, whethererpetuated by the soviets, the nazis, the Israelis, chinese and Vietnamese and North Korean communists, and the USA. All their lives mattered, and none of the unjust murders should ever be excused or whitewashed.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  114. @Regnum Nostrum

    If the USSR was so humane and wonderful, as you claim you perceived, why did so many people risk or lose their lives trying to escape?

    And please remind us, mouthpiece for murderers, did east Berlin or West Berlin erect a wall to keep people imprisoned?

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  115. @Regnum Nostrum

    My Slovak and German great-grandparents and grandparents must have been lying to us then.

    Anyone who lies this much about horrors so obvious and well documented, likely intends to inflict such horrors again. Good people of all countries rightly fear people like you.

  116. @Regnum Nostrum

    Our friends who live in Kraków (the wife a native Pole) indeed do not hate Russians, and they do not support the current U.S./EU/NATO troublemaking, belligerence, dishonesty, sanctions, etc. against Russia.

    But they FEAR Russia, and with very compelling reason given history.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  117. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Lots of genocide.

    ……..
    The intention is to delute[sic] the white gene in an overt and obvious agenda of genociding the white gene off the face of the planet.

    When it comes to revisionism, your Nazi antecedents rise to the surface in spite of all efforts to deflect. The word ‘Genocide’ takes on a new meaning!

    Toss your bullshit in a different pit.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  118. Avery says:

    Meanwhile the genocidal Uyguroğlar Turks, after instigating the civil war in Syria and keeping the slaughter going with their total support of ISIS cannibals, have somehow escaped notice.
    After herding desperate Syrian refugees into tent-camps and keeping them there, the nomads are letting them die in the cold and snow.

    Where are the anti-Christian Islamist apologist posters?
    Where are the anti-Christian Turkophile apologist posters?

    [4-month-old Syrian baby freezes to death in a tent]
    http://www.todayszaman.com/national_4-month-old-syrian-baby-freezes-to-death-in-a-tent_408854.html

    {The Cihan news agency reported on Tuesday that the baby’s family is living without fuel or electricity in a tent in the Balpınar neighborhood of Batman and suffering from the bitterly cold weather. The baby, named Faris Khidr Ali, could not resist the cold any longer and died on Tuesday.
    The recent cold snap and snowfall has made life harder for those Syrian refugees living in camps. Although the Turkish state manages to meet some of their needs, most of the refugees are deprived of fuel, shelter and electricity. Besides those Syrians, tens of thousands also live in cities in various provinces of Turkey, leaving many onlookers heartbroken by the children’s plight.
    Ali’s father, Eid Khidr, told Cihan on Tuesday, “We have escaped from death [referring to the Syrian civil war], but our baby froze to death here.” The father said he is afraid that his 3-year-old child would also die and called on officials to help his family.}

    “most of the refugees are deprived of fuel, shelter and electricity.”

    Welcome to nomad Turkish paradise.

  119. @Robert Payne

    Which civilians has Putin killed? Please list the names and circumstances, and put them in the proper category:

    1) Civilians Putin has killed by his own hand.
    2) Civilians Putin has specifically ordered killed, the action taken by some other agent.
    3) Civilians killed as consequences of Putin’s policies.

    (Note that by criteria (3) every U.S. president in recent decades has killed thousands of civilians.)

    I just want to know what wicked things Putin did. I constantly hear general accusations made against him, I’d like to know if there’s any fire under all that smoke.

  120. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Actually, Regnum, it is your ridiculous figure of 250,000 Ukrainian guerrillas fighting against the germans soon after the war broke out, which is totally f-a-l-s-e.

    Perhaps, old boy, u could benefit from reading Russian military historians S. Drobiasko and A. Karashtshuk, authors of ‘Wtoraja Mirowaja woina 1939 – 1945. Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Armija (The Russian Liberation Army in World War II), published in the late 1990s by the renowned Moscow military publishing house AST.

    From the Introduction:
    “For fifty years, Soviet publications about World War II ignored the fundamental fact that more than a million of our countrymen fought on the German side.”

    Doesn’t sound like a few thousands, does it?

    In late January of 1945 in East Prussia, the then Soviet Captain, Alexander Solzhenitsyn, ran into the ROA, the russian liberation army:

    “I was watching when, in the early dawn, they suddenly sprang up from the snow where they had gathered in their camouflage coats. With a great ‘Hurra!’ they suddenly attacked the positions of the 152mm section with hand grenades, putting the heavy guns out of commission before they could fire a shot. Pursued by their flares, our last little group of survivors fled for three kilometers across the snow covered fields, all the way to a footbridge across the narrow river.”

    In his essay “The Russian Question at the End of the 20th Century,” which appeared in the Russian magazine Nowij mir In July of 1994, Solzhenitsyn wrote:

    “It is indicative of their valor and devotion that at the end of the Winter of 1944-45, when it was obvious to everyone that Hitler had lost the war, in those last few months, tens of thousands of Russians volunteered for that Russian army of liberation. This was the real voice of the Russian people. The story of the Russian Liberation Army has been slandered by ideologues as well as the nations of the West, which could not imagine that the Russians desired liberation for themselves. Nevertheless it represents a heroic and manly page in Russian history. We still believe in its continuation and future today.”

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  121. Thirdeye says:
    @geokat62

    The case for Trotskyist roots is weak too. The discussion I linked to in post #85 explains why pretty well. It even contains a passage showing Trotsky’s own opinion of the “Trotskyists” that influenced the early neocons. Discussion with ex-Trotskyists in the halls of academia does not a Trotskyist make.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  122. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    (Avery)

    Did Hitlerite Nazi invaders commit Genocide of Jews, Slavs, and other Untermenschen.
    10s of millions of them.

    Yes or No ?

    (Rurik)

    I don’t know the exact details, but from what I do know, Jews and gays were persecuted and often murdered, Slavs were denigrated as Untermenschen and many millions of Russians and Jews and assorted Slavic peoples died or were murdered in that terrible juggernaut between communism and fascism during and after the second world war. The Nazis did commit atrocities and I believe they were also rather arrogant in their new-found Aryan pride.

    Rurik, your “answer” is a tap-dancing evasion if I ever read one. The question was about genocide, not whether Jews and gays were “persecuted and often murdered.” Was there or was there not a deliberate, systematic attempt on the part of the Nazis to exterminate Jews in Europe?

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @RobinG
  123. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    your Nazi antecedents rise to the surface in spite of all efforts to deflect. The word ‘Genocide’ takes on a new meaning!

    it’s scum like you that are calling the Germans (and French and Swedish and all others) “Nazis” for not wanting millions upon millions of Muslims to flood their countries and inundate their culture and ethnic identity.

    this today on Drudge

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/germany/12082366/German-women-report-string-of-sexual-assaults-by-Arab-and-North-African-men.html

    from Norway to Australia and back to Sweden the immigrants are raping the young women (often brutally) and causing massive strife as they cluster into tribal enclaves with no-go areas for the indigenous (white) citizens.

    http://en.europenews.dk/Norway-Oslo-Police-We-Have-Lost-the-City-79027.html

    It doesn’t take a genius to see how well massive immigration worked out for the Amerindian now does it? But then for certain hate-consumed scum, that is EXACTLY what they want for the people of Europe and Germany in particular. For them to be bred away in a sea of immigrants. And any Germans or French (or Americans who support Trump’s words about curbing massive, uncontrolled immigration), they call us “Nazis”

    I don’t know what pit you crawled out of Anon666, but I know the stench. All you haters that demand access to of all these people to our countries, well how many of those countries can I demand to go live in? Does Mexico allow immigrants to just move in and demand citizenship? Does Morocco? Does any country? Yet these racist scum demand that if we’re cursed with white skin, then we have no right to a country of our own. We have no right to create safe places for our children to play or our young women to walk down the side walk or go on a train without being harassed or raped or worse, by people like you who’re so obviously consumed with hatred. Well, suck on it. Marinate in your hate and bile. Twist in agony that somewhere there’s a community that isn’t ravaged by ethnic hate. And they’ll be more coming, as Le Pen in France and Trump in the US and Orban in Hungary and other states come to their senses and protect their citizens from scum like you.

    Go Trump!!! ; )

    • Replies: @Anon999
  124. Rurik says:
    @RadicalCenter

    All their lives mattered, and none of the unjust murders should ever be excused or whitewashed.

    it was a time of madness, but as the story is told by the victors, all we’ve ever heard about it all was basically lies intended to make the conflict a cartoon version, with the “good” guys who were all good, and the “bad’ guys who were all bad. That’s what seems to work best with the simple minds of the sheeple, but it’s hardly the truth.

    I just hope we don’t do it all over again in this century. Clearly there are forced attempting to do just that.

    God bless

  125. Rurik says:

    “… more than a million of our countrymen fought on the German side.”

    and they weren’t fighting for Germany, hardly. They were fighting against the Bolshevik fiend that had taken control of their country, slaughtered the Tsar’s family in that basement, genocided millions of Ukrainians, and were crushing the very spirit and will of the people to breath a happy breath or speak openly and freely their hearts.

    It was a nightmarish expression of the worst of the human willingness to put a boot firmly on the face of mankind. It’s what inspired Orwell’s dystopian and prescient novel 1984.

    It’s hard to really explain the horrors of Stalin’s Russia, and the rest of the people who suffered so unimaginably. We’ve all seen the images of the Holocaust, and that was terrible too, but no more so than what those people suffered in the gulags and torture rooms. Tens of millions died. Hundreds of millions were forced into a dark tyranny that terrorized the people for generation after grueling generation. Recently I read someone saying that the entirety of the country of Ukraine was suffering a kind of Stockholm syndrome, and I believe it’s true.

    And when the Russian men and others, (millions of them) clamored to get to the West at the end of the war to escape Stalin’s cruelty and certain death or worse, Churchill and FDR turned them all over to Stalin, where they were never heard from again. These were the best of the Russian menfolk. Men who would NOT be slaves. And they were liquidated by the treachery of the scum in the west. The same scum who’re trying to foment war in Ukraine and more horrors in Syria right now. And always on behalf of the money men. Always the money men.

  126. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    So now I guess Nazism didn’t start with Adolf Hitler and his National Socialists NSDAP, but started somewhere back in time when the first gentile looked cross-eyed at a Jew. Lol.

    If you really wanted to find out, you could start by googling “Russian roots of Nazism.” But you’ve clearly made up your mind that the whole thing is the fault of Jewish Bolsheviks and you aren’t going to let facts get in your way.

    And then your vile revisionism of the Holodomor as just a little blip due to the incompetence of the Ukrainian peasant,…..

    You forgot how to read. I referred to bureaucratic incompetence, which was rife within the efforts of the Soviet government to reorganize food distribution and industrialize in the 1930s. The famine had both natural and human causes, and not just within the Ukraine.

    I never cited Duranty. I provided a link in Post #83 to an article written by an Irish-American journalist that cites the academic work of western demographers. Bottom line, the demographic facts concerning the Soviet Union from 1926-1939 do not support the “Ukrainian genocide” narrative promoted by Ukrainian nationalist and Cold War propagandists. But again, you’re not one to let inconvenient facts get in the way of your narrative.

    Unfortunately, the Katyn Wikipedia page is infested with discredited propaganda and makes no reference to the work that factually trumps all others, the work of the Polish forensic anthropologists from 2012, which refutes the Katyn propaganda narrative.

    Genocide is the attempt to exterminate or shove aside or render asunder the genetic identity of a people.

    (emphasis added)
    Wrong. You just equated miscegenation with genocide, just like Nazis do. Who people choose to reproduce with is their business, not yours.

    Slavery is when you force someone to work for others.

    That definition includes the force of economic necessity. Guess again.

    And Hitler didn’t invent concentration camps…..

    I never said he did. The first concentration camp in the sense which we understand it was operated by Austria-Hungary in 1914. The ethnic Russian inmates were deliberately left to die of starvation and disease. The Boer War camps were more akin to the “strategic hamlets” run by the USA in Vietnam.

    Since you’re back into your habit of truncating sentences in quotes to change the meaning and pretending that it’s the whole sentence (not including the required “…….” for truncated or elided quotes), I’ll quote the full sentence rather than your version.

    The trajectory of Ukraine since independence suggests that Soviet largesse to the Ukrainian SSR was the main thing keeping it from turning into the social and economic shithole that it’s become today.

    I stand by that sentence. It is supported by the facts concerning 1)the degree of political power within the USSR held by the Ukrainian SSR, 2)the voluntary addition of land resources to the Ukrainian SSR by the USSR, 3)the economic and educational resources directed towards the Ukrainian SSR by the USSR, particularly in the postwar era, and 4)the plummeting standard of living for Ukrainian residents since the breakup of the USSR. Your blithering does not refute that.

    The seriously twisted and deranged psyches on this forum are the ones who cling to factually discredited narratives, such as you. Yeah, all the wars and everything else that went wrong in the Twentieth Century was the fault of those nasty Jews, right? Gentile imperialists on both sides of the Atlantic and revanchist gentile ethnic nationalists in Europe who threw in their lot with imperialists had nothing to do with it. Naaaah…..

    • Replies: @5371
    , @Rurik
  127. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    Did or didn’t the Soviets deliberately starve to death millions of the world’s most successful farmers?

    Simple answer, no. As explained to you elsewhere in this thread, factual evidence (something you seem allergic to) does not support that propaganda narrative.

  128. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    Was there or was there not a deliberate, systematic attempt on the part of the Nazis to exterminate Jews in Europe?

    I’d say they intended to genocide them, insofar as genocide is considered the ethnic cleansing of a people from the lands they were born in. So yes to genocide under that definition. And did the Nazis murder Jews who they considered communists or threats of some kind? Yes. But then as I understand it, there were Jewish officers who served in the Wehrmacht

    https://rafzen.wordpress.com/2013/02/16/jewish-senior-officers-in-hitlers-army-erhard-milch-wilhelm-keitel-walther-von-brauchitsch-erich-raeder-and-maximilian-von-weichs/

    or so I’ve heard.

    But that doesn’t mean that many Jews were not butchered by the Nazis for being Jews. Just like lots of gentiles were murdered by the Jews in the NKVD for being gentiles. Like they’re doing today in Palestine.

    As to the fundamental question of was there a decided and determined agenda and campaign of the Nazis to exterminate all the Jews off the planet using homicidal gas chambers among other methods? I doubt it.

    I’ve simply heard too many lies about it all. The lampshades and soap lies that are dismissed today by all serious scholars. The way the number at Auschwitz was officially altered from like four million to I think one or two today – but then the holy number of six million never changes, does it?

    I wasn’t there and I don’t know the mind of Hitler or Himmler or anyone else. But there doesn’t seem to be any proof or any official declaration of the Nazis that they wanted to exterminate all the Jews of the world. (an unimaginable sin) Even Bibi said Hitler didn’t want to do that until that Mufti told him to. If he wanted to kill them all, why did he fill a ship with them and send them out to the world to give them safe harbor?

    Lots of contradiction and outright lies. And all I’ve heard about that war is lies. I suspect I’ve heard more lies about that particular event than any other in the history of the world. Because they have reasons to lie about it. They wanted to make the Germans and the Nazis in particular look so bad that it almost excused the horrors and atrocities that the allies visited upon the German people.

    But if even one Jew was murdered for no other reason than because he or she was Jewish, then I contemn that act in the absolute. Exactly as I would for any gentile who was murdered for being a gentile, like they’re doing today in Palestine.

    So my answer is that I don’t know the extent of the campaign to genocide the Jews. Get them out of Europe, yes. Kill them all in gas chambers? I doubt it.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  129. RobinG says:
    @Thirdeye

    3rd Eye, “tap-dancing evasion” is Rurik’s specialty!

  130. Rehmat says:

    “Russians have used with devastating effectiveness against the Wahabis in Chechnia.”

    That’s another B.S.

    Chechen are pre-dominantly belongs to Sufi Islam like Turks and Bosnia. There could be more Caucasian Muslims in Israel than Suadi Wahabis in Chechnya.

    Israel is home to tens of thousands of Muslims whose ancestors escaped Russian army from western Caucasus and settled in Palestine under Ottoman rule.

    The story of the so-called “Israeli Chechen” living in Abu Ghosh village near Jerusalem was recently invented by the Kadyrov ruling family with the blessings of Moscow and Tel Aviv. The “Israeli Chechen” story has come handy for both the Zionist regime and Vladimir Putin government to recruit these “useful Islamists” to fight against Caucasus Muslim resistance groups (Chechnya, Ingushetia and Dagestan) fighting Russian colonists for the last three centuries – and used as “suicide bombers” in other part of the world to demean Muslims and Islam….

    http://rehmat1.com/2013/05/27/from-little-chechnya-in-israel-to-boston-bombing/

  131. Thirdeye says:
    @L.K

    Soviet premier Mikhail Gorbachev confirmed in 1990 that the USSR had, indeed, committed the crime in Katyn.
    Thousands of other poles were murdered in other locations, as confirmed by declassified soviet documents(after the fall of the soviet union).

    No, that was Boris Yeltsin who claimed it in 1992. The supposed smoking gun in the case, the “Beria Memo” turned out to be a poorly done forgery. The forgers used the anachronistic term “Ukraine,”which is post-Soviet, instead of the contemporary term “Ukrainian SSR.” There are other forensic issues with the “Beria Memo,” but that blooper stands out. Soviet-era archive forgers used to be slicker than that.

    As for German ammo, the NKVD used it, there is no mystery there.

    Not German ammo produced in 1941, From Annamarina’s link citing the Polish forensic anthropologists who investigated the mass graves:

    Furthermore, 98.67 percent of shells found on the site were of 1941 German manufacture, according to the Polish report. Remains of women and children had also been found in the mass grave.

    If you read on the details of the mass graves, the tidy arrangement of the bodies was an SS signature.

    The air photo claim is dubious, if you’ve ever had experience interpreting small earthen features.

    • Replies: @5371
    , @L.K
  132. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    Wow, you just outdid Fred Astaire! You did yourself no favors, Mr. Denier.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  133. geokat62 says:
    @Thirdeye

    The case for Trotskyist roots is weak too. The discussion I linked to in post #85 explains why pretty well…

    Instead of post #85, I think post #86 reveals the source of the confusion:

    Find one, just one, Neocon who advocates for worldwide proletarian revolution on the orthodox Marxist model.

    While the neocons never advocated for worldwide proletarian revolution, they are still Trotskyistists in the sense that they simply inverted Trotsky’s idea of exporting socialism, by advocating for the export of democracy:

    Trotskyism to Anachronism: The Neoconservative Revolution by John B. Judis, Foreign affairs, Volume 74 No. 4, July/August 1995.

    {This is a review of The Rise of Neoconservatism: Intellectuals and Foreign Affairs, 1945-1994, by John Ehrman, Yale University Press, New Haven, 1995}

    For 14 years, from the 1973 Jackson-Vanik amendment until the 1987 Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces Treaty, a group of intellectuals known as neoconservatives shaped, and sometimes dominated, American foreign policy. They wrote for Commentary, The Wall Street Journal, and later The National Interest. They acted through organizations like the Committee on the Present Danger and the Committee for the Free World. …

    The other important influence on neo-conservatives was the legacy of Trotksyism – a point that other historians and journalists have made about neoconservatism but that eludes Ehrman. Many of the founders of neoconservatism, including The Public Interest founder Irving Kristol and coeditor Nathan Glazer, Sidney Hook, and Albert Wohlstetter, were either members of or close to the Trotskyist left in the late 1930s and early 1940s. Younger neoconservatives, including Penn Kemble, Joshua Muravchik, and Carl Gershman, came through the Socialist Party at a time when former Trotskyist Max Schachtman was still a commanding figure.

    What both the older and younger neoconservatives absorbed from their socialist past was an idealistic concept of internationalism. Trotskyists believed that Stalin, in trying to build socialism in one country rather than through world revolution, had created a degenerate workers’ state instead of a genuine dictatorship of the proletariat. In the framework of international communism, the Trotskyists were rabid internationalists rather than realists and nationalists. In 1939, as a result of the Nazi-Soviet pact, the Trotskyist movement split, with one faction under James Burnham and Max Schachtman declaring itself opposed equally to German Nazism and Soviet communism. Under the influence of an Italian Trotskyist, Bruno Rizzi, Burnham and Schachtman envisaged the Nazi and Soviet bureaucrats and American managers as a new class. While Burnham broke with the left and became an editor at National Review, Schachtman remained. The neoconservatives who went through the Trotskyist and socialist movements came to see foreign policy as a crusade, the goal of which was first global socialism, then social democracy, and finally democratic capitalism. They never saw foreign policy in terms of national interest or balance of power. Neoconservatism was a kind of inverted Trotskyism, which sought to “export democracy,” in Muravchik’s words, in the same way that Trotsky originally envisaged exporting socialism. It saw its adversaries on the left as members or representatives of a public sector-based new class.

    The neoconservatives also got their conception of intellectual and political work from their socialist past. They did not draw the kind of rigid distinction between theory and pratice that many academics and politicians do. Instead they saw theory as a form of political combat and politics as an endeavour that should be informed by theory. They saw themselves as a cadre in a cause rather than as strictly independent intellectuals. and they were willing to use theory as a partisan weapon. …

    In 1973 Jackson and the neo-conservatives who worked with him, including Wohlstetter protege Richard Perle, began a campaign to link trade concessions to the Soviet Union to explicit Soviet concessions on Jewish emigration. … They rejected Kissinger’s realism … Jackson and the neo-conservatives insisted on passing Jackson-Vanik. The Soviets then baulked at complying with its terms, and detente, from that moment, was dead. …

    They laid the basis for the massive and at least partly unnecessary American arms buildup, which may have accelerated the decline of the Soviet Union but also contributed to the decline of the American economy – leading, among other things, to the crippling deficits of the 1980s. …

    http://mailstar.net/cia-infiltrating-left.html

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  134. Thirdeye says:
    @geokat62

    While the neocons never advocated for worldwide proletarian revolution, they are still Trotskyistists in the sense that they simply inverted Trotsky’s idea of exporting socialism, by advocating for the export of democracy:

    That’s just dumb. First of all, “exporting democracy” was never anything more than a pretense for establishing hegemony. That’s why neocons never advocate overthrowing the Saudi royal family in the name of democracy. Neocons are all about hegemony, not ideals. Eastern bloc hegemonists in the Soviet era actually opposed socialist movements if they saw a threat to their own hegemony. The Sino-Soviet rift was about hegemony.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @geokat62
  135. 5371 says:
    @Thirdeye

    [If you really wanted to find out, you could start by googling “Russian roots of Nazism.”]

    So if some idiot put it on the internet, it must be true? Poor Ranke, who did not live to see a historian like you.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
    , @Thirdeye
  136. 5371 says:
    @Thirdeye

    [From Annamarina’s link citing the Polish forensic anthropologists who investigated the mass graves:]

    Those graves were not at Katyn, Inspector.

  137. utu says:
    @Thirdeye

    “Neocons are all about hegemony, not ideals.”
    Trotskyist were all about hegemony, not ideals.
    Ideals or rather the rhetoric of ideals is always meant for masses and peons. It always works. Up to the point.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  138. @L.K

    That figure is a historical fact. If I have to choose between your unfounded claims and those of historians I am inclined to choose the latter. As far as the third paragraph is concerned you are confusing Ukrainian partisans with Russians who fought with Germans. See it is very difficult to argue with sloppy characters. The most famous of these Russian collaborators was Vlasov. Hitler did not trust him and for a long time he was not allowed to form his so called liberation army. At the end he was able to create only one complete and one partial division, altogether no more than 40 000 men. Their performance in the field was pathetic including the one against Solzhenitsyn. Vlasov attempted to change sides during the Prague uprising but his attempt was too little too late and failed. He was arrested and executed as a traitor. Another collaborator was Rodionov with a few thousand men but he changed sides early in the war and was later killed fighting the Germans. Those individual traitors who are in every country do not deserve any mention and neither do the revisionists of history who seem to sprout out like poisonous mushrooms all over the place. I understand your difficult position in deciding where the truth lies since you did not live in those times.

    • Replies: @L.K
  139. @RadicalCenter

    Can you cite one example where I defended a murder. If not your claim is a slander pure and simple.

  140. @RadicalCenter

    They do not support the current U.S./EU/NATO troublemaking but they fear Russia??? Can you elaborate?

  141. @5371

    Does the same reasoning apply to you? How do you decide what is true and what is not?

    • Replies: @5371
  142. geokat62 says:
    @Thirdeye

    That’s just dumb.

    See utu’s response re: your point about hegemony.

    This will be my final instalment that demonstrates that neocons do indeed have (self-proclaimed) Trotskyist roots:

    Trotsky, Strauss, and the Neocons, by Justin Raimondo

    [MORE]

    The War Party is playing defense these days, and for good reason: in Iraq, there is no sign of those “weapons of mass destruction,” and in Washington, Congress is getting ready to launch an investigation into who lied about what – and why. Meanwhile, one American soldier is getting killed every other day, on average – weeks after Bush’s declaration of “victory.” This is what old King Pyrrhus had in mind when he said: “One more victory such as this, and we are done for.”

    Worst of all – from the War Party’s perspective – is that the neocon meme is really getting out there. Every day, it seems, there is a new article in some periodical not only pointing to them as the driving force behind the rush to war, but also detailing their ideological odyssey from left to right – and this is driving the neocons craaaazy. The result is that, within less than 24 hours, no less than four major polemics appeared denouncing this level of scrutiny as evidence of (what else?) “anti-Semitism.”

    First to weigh in was Robert Bartley, in the Wall Street Journal, who approaches the problem by floating his own sort of conspiracy theory: the whole brouhaha, he avers, is a plot by Lyndon LaRouche and his kooky followers. The evidence: a pamphlet put out by the LaRouchies, luridly entitled “Children of Satan.” Bartley is apparently a LaRouche afficionado – or, at least, interested enough to claim, with a knowledgeable air, that

    “It does seem to be true that the LaRouche screed was first in line in thrusting Leo Strauss, author of such volumes as Natural Right and History, into the middle of the debate over the Iraq war. The theme was later sounded by James Atlas in the New York Times and Seymour Hersh in the New Yorker.”

    This is absolute nonsense, on two counts:

    1) As anyone with even the most rudimentary knowledge of how to use Google could discover in a moment, the neocons’ enemies have long been aware of Strauss’s cult and its baleful influence. Libertarians are naturally horrified by the Straussian devotion to the benevolent dictatorship of a self-appointed elite, and we at antiwar.com have not spared Strauss and his followers their fair share of abuse. While Shadia B. Drury’s 1999 book, Leo Strauss and the American Right, provided a critique of Strauss’s influence from the left, paleoconservatives such as Paul Gottfried were among the first to raise the alarm. But I’ll leave it to my old friend Burt Blumert to capture the essence of the antagonism that has long existed between the followers of Strauss and the Old Right gang centered around LewRockwell.com:

    “Neocons, as ex-Trotskyites, are bad enough, but those who follow the pro-pagan Leo Strauss are deadly. He advocated the Big Lie. Forgive me for all the gory details, but these people – with their other leaders like Bill Buckley and Irving Kristol and the help of the CIA – perverted the American right into loving the welfare-warfare state.”

    And that was in one of Burt’s fundraising pieces. Help save the world from the evil Straussians, he warned over a year ago. They want to drag us into war with their Big Lie technique – it all seems pretty prescient to me.

    2) Bartley seems to believe that if LaRouche says the sky is blue, it must be red, or perhaps some other color. But establishing such a LaRouche Standard, whereby we must rule out anything and everything the LaRouchians aver – aside from constituting a new category of logical fallacy – would lead Bartley to disavow his newspaper’s avid support, over the years, for such projects as the “Star Wars” missile defense, which the LaRouchians really were the first to propose and lobby for.

    If one believes, like most conservatives, that ideas have consequences, and that philosophy has an enormous impact on the conduct of foreign policy (or any government policy), then you belong, according to Bartley, “in the fever swamps” with the LaRouchies. But the punch-line for this joke of an argument is here:

    “This is the ugly accusation an alert reader should suspect in encountering the word ‘Straussian,’ or these days even ‘neo-conservative’ in the context of the Iraq debate. Paul Wolfowitz and Richard Perle find their Jewish heritage a point of attack. But George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld are gentiles. Condoleezza Rice and Colin Powell don’t look Jewish to me, but they also helped draft the basic statement of the Bush Doctrine, the September 2002 ‘National Security Policy of the United States.’”

    In the Orwellian world of the neocons, where a new form of political correctness frames their every utterance, the language is contracting. Because the goal of totalitarian thought control is to make the expression of political incorrectness impossible, the goal of this Neocon Newspeak is the abolition of many now-common words. In this context, words are used, not to make debating points, but to end all discussion. There are no Straussians, we are told, and even the word neoconservative is to be flushed down the Memory Hole, along with shelves full of books, articles, and even one incredibly boring film detailing their intellectual and political evolution in minute detail.

    The idea that the major media have been taken over by neo-Nazis, and that the campaign to identify who and/or what got us involved in an unnecessary and ultimately futile war is all part of “the new anti-Semitism,” is the rather implausible theme of the neocons’ defense. In a polemic that has all the hallmarks of having been written by an awful drunk – i.e., not only entirely lacking in logic, but also relentlessly subjective and anecdotal – Christopher Hitchens reveals the ultimate evidence for this worldwide anti-Semitic plot in all its sinister “undertones.” Once again, the use of certain words – or, in this case, their correct pronunciation – is the issue at hand:

    “‘Yes that’s all very well,’ said the chap from the BBC World Service, ‘but what about this man Vulfervitz who seems to run the whole show from behind the scenes?’ For the fifth time in as many days, and for the umpteenth time this year, I corrected a British interviewer’s pronunciation. You see the name in print, you hear it uttered quite a lot in American discussions, you then give a highly inflected rendition of your own. … What is this?”

    To any normal person, it is nothing at all. A simple mis-pronunciation. A defective ear. Perhaps Hitchens, through the thick syrupy haze of alcohol and self-regard, could not hear what this anonymous “chap” was really saying. But, no:

    “This is not quite like old-line reactionaries going out of their way to say ‘Franklin Delano Rosenfeld.’ Still, I don’t think I am quite wrong in suspecting that a sharpened innuendo is in play here. Why else, when the very name of Paul Wolfowitz is mentioned, do so many people bid adieu to the very notion of objectivity?”

    It is Hitchens who has bid adieu to objectivity. He details all the various travails suffered by the hawkish Defense Department deputy secretary, but nowhere mentions the supposed ethno-religious factor until the very end of his rambling screed:

    “Coming back to where I began, though, I think that there’s genuine cause for alarm in the current vulgar conflation of ‘Kabbalah’ with ‘cabal,’ and with the practice of what, if anyone else were to be the target, the left would already be calling ‘demonization.’”

    The problem with this argument is that Hitchens is the only one making such a far-fetched conflation, but boozy narcissism is what usually takes the place of logic in the alcoholic mind. Hitchens’ contribution to the neocon counteroffensive, then, is to add his own nominee to the growing list of forbidden words: Straussian, neocon, cabal…. Their campaign to constrict the parameters of political debate by eliminating words marches on.

    Arnold Beichman was next up at bat, with his own nominee: in any discussion of the neocons and their influence, he wants any reference to Leon Trotsky or the influence of Trotskyism to be strictly verboten. Writing in National Review Online, Beichman is outraged at Jeet Heer’s National Post piece detailing the Trotskyist roots of leading neocons, whose cocktail party chatter evidently includes abstruse references to Max Shachtman and the factional history of the Fourth International. I wrote about the Heer piece the other day (scroll down to “Notes in the Margin”), but, alas, the saga continues. Beichman contemptuously dismisses the ex-Trotskyist Hitchens’ alleged influence at the White House. Apparently in response to ex-Trotskyist-turned-neocon Stephen Schwartz for affectionately referring to the killer of Kronstadt as “the old man” and “L.D.,” Beichman launches a magnificent attack on the crimes of Trotsky, unfairly ripping into Heer for giving Schwartz a platform and for bringing up the Trotsky connection at all:

    “But there is something more sinister at work here: to rob the Coalition, which destroyed a terrorist haven and an inhuman dictatorship, of the moral victory it represents.”

    Schwartz responded the next day in National Review with what I think is the last word on this subject: his article is the definitive text that proves how right we paleos have been all along about this troublesome sect known as the neocons. Schwartz denounces “a group of neofascists” who supposedly claim that “neoconservatives are all ex-Trotskyists,” but defends Heer’s piece as serving another aim, that of describing “the very real evolution of certain ex-Trotskyists toward an interventionist position on the Iraq war” – i.e., his own evolution and that of his friends and associates in the neocon movement. It is okay for certain people to talk about the Trotskyist influence on neoconservatism, just as long as they have the right ideology:

    “The U.S. neofascists who have thrown this accusation around use the term ‘Trotskyist’ the same way they use the term ‘neoconservative:’ as a euphemism for ‘Jew.’”

    But when he writes how “many of the original generation of neoconservatives had a background of association with Trotskyism in its Shachtmanite iteration” it’s somehow not a hate crime. Schwartz is even allowed to observe, as I did in my 1993 book Reclaiming the American Right in some detail, that “the Shachtmanites, in the 1960s, joined the AFL-CIO in its best Cold War period, and many became staunch Reaganites.” The point of Schwartz’s rebuttal, however, is that he is proud of his Trotksyist past. He even gathers his co-thinkers together in proclaiming, in true Trotskyist fashion, that they constitute a semi-official faction, which some editor at NRO deemed “Trotsky-cons”:

    “The second issue at hand involves the actual ex-Trotskyists who engaged with the issue of the Iraqi war. I call this group, to which I belong, the ‘three-and-a-half international,’ which is an obscure reference I won’t explain fully. But I use it to indicate three main individuals: Christopher Hitchens, myself, and the Iraqi intellectual Kanan Makiya, who all did indeed march under the Red Flag at some point….”

    Here is where Schwartz descends into sheer hilarity, given that the best humor is always unintentional. He not only defends dear old Trotsky against Beichman’s calumniations, but also red-baits Beichman, reminding him – and NRO’s by this time utterly baffled readers – of Beichman’s Stalinist past. Beichman was a fellow traveler of the Communist Party in the 1930s, when he worked for the pro-war, pro-FDR left-wing newspaper PM. It’s all too funny, but one can only wonder what ordinary, garden-variety, un-prefixed conservatives think of all this sound and fury.

    Here, after all, are the ex-Commies of yesteryear re-enacting the Stalin-Trotsky split in the pages of National Review – even as the magazine continues with its ridiculous campaign denying the very existence of neocons as anything but plain old vanilla conservatives. The magazine’s online readers, such as they are, may be mystified by Schwartz’s argument that Trotsky has a lot to say to the neocons of today, because his analysis of the Moscow Trials somehow impacts on the neocon analysis of Peter Arnett. (Say, what?) But I, for one, particularly enjoyed Schwartz’s contention that the Beichman jeremiad represented an effort to “exclude Hitchens and myself from consideration as reliable allies in the struggle against Islamist extremism,” or, as he proudly avers:

    “Because we have yet to apologize for something I, for one, will never consider worthy of apology. There is clearly a group of heresy-hunters among the original neoconservatives who resent having to give way to certain newer faces, with our own history and culture. These older neoconservatives cannot take yes for an answer, and they especially loathe Hitchens. But nobody ever asked Norman Podhoretz to apologize for having once written poetry praising the Soviet army. Nobody ever asked the art critic Meyer Schapiro, who was also a Trotskyist, to flog himself for assisting illegal foreign revolutionaries at a time when it was considered unpatriotic, to say the least. Nobody ever asked Shachtman or Burnham, or, for that matter, Sidney Hook, or Edmund Wilson, or a hundred others, to grovel and beg mercy for inciting war on capitalism in the depths of the Great Depression.”

    Holding that Red Banner high, Schwartz declares war on the ex-Stalinists in the neocon movement – of which there are plenty, as he correctly points out – and proclaims his “Third and a Half International.” It is almost too farcical to be taken seriously, but then the “conservatism” upheld by National Review since the purge of John Sullivan has never been serious, and this just underscores the sheer absurdity of its claim to be some kind of final arbiter.

    Schwartz raises a perfectly legitimate point: if the ex-Trotskyists have to apologize for importing their particular brand of militarism into the neocon movement, then why don’t the ex-Stalinists have to “grovel,” too? I say let them both apologize for supporting some variant of mass-murdering commie totalitarianism, or stop pretending to be “conservatives.”

    The ideas that energize the neoconservative movement have little if anything to do with traditional conservatism. That this suspicion is now widespread among traditional conservatives, as well as journalists, is not to be undone by lame accusations of alleged “anti-Semitism.” Paring down the permitted language of political debate is not going to work, either. It is clear beyond the need for further proof that the War Party bamboozled the American public into taking that first fateful step on the road to empire. We know who they are, and what they believe: it is not a “conspiracy,” as the detractors of this theory insist, because there is nothing secret about it – and because the same people are urging us onward, to Iran, Syria, and beyond.

    The esoteric elitist Strauss, the Leninist elitist Trotsky, Schwartz and his mock-operatic “Third and a Half International” re-fighting the inter-Commie faction wars of the 1930s with a gaggle of ex-Stalinists – this is the official “conservative” movement of today! No wonder Commissar Frum and his fellow neocons felt compelled to attack us antiwar, limited government types as “unpatriotic conservatives,” going so far as to declare that they “turn their backs” on us. They turned their backs on authentic conservatism some time ago.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  143. Anon999 says:
    @Rurik

    Deflection is your smelly “defence”. Talk about immigrants as much as you want to brush aside your innate hatred, it won’t escape all those who see. It is scum like you, resurfacing Nazis, that are responsible for hate, bile and twist. Just like the Hitler’s Nazis, what they did to Russians, Belorussians, Moldovans, Ukranians, Poles, Jews and so many others.

    You suck on it, Nazi fuck!

    • Replies: @FLOR solitaria
  144. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    If you really wanted to find out, you could start by googling “Russian roots of Nazism.” But you’ve clearly made up your mind that the whole thing is the fault of Jewish Bolsheviks and you aren’t going to let facts get in your way.

    If you’re trying to make the case that the Russians who somehow survived the carnage of Jewish Bolshevism and made it to Germany, (like the silly if persistent rumors of Anastasia for instance), brought with them a distrust of Jews and a hatred of communism’s genocidal bloodlust, then of course you’ll get no argument here. How could they not have a suspicion of Jews? Look what the Jewish Bolsheviks had done to their country! Imagine if you were Anastasia and survived. How would you feel about the Jewish Bolshevism that had just slaughtered your family, eh?

    But just because they hated the murderous and genocidal ravages of the communists who had taken over their country, that didn’t make them “Nazis”, even if they were sympathetic to some of the tenets of Nazism. There are very many Russians today that have a deep suspicion of Jews (Zhids they call them). But the only ones who they hate far more than Jews are the German Nazis – who they remember as having tried to take their country and slaughter their relatives out of a racist sense of superiority to the Slavic Russian peoples.

    Russians and Poles and other Slavs have no love for Jews as a rule. But they hate with a passion those Germans who they consider Nazis. So it’s silly to say that anyone who has a distrust of Jew per se is a “Nazi”. That’s just absurd.

    You forgot how to read. I referred to bureaucratic incompetence, which was rife within the efforts of the Soviet government to reorganize food distribution and industrialize in the 1930s. The famine had both natural and human causes, and not just within the Ukraine.

    as I read your words trying to be an apologist and liar for the sub-human fiends that deliberately starved to death so many millions of my people, I’m strongly temped to unleash Rurik the Intemperate and just say f**k you. You certainly deserve no less. The reason for that is because you’re too educated to be that utterly wrong. You really can not have looked into that event, the Holodomor and not see that is was obviously deliberate. Everyone who’s studied it all know it was a deliberate act. A genocidal act in fact of hatred for productive, intelligent, independent and hard working white folks. The same genocidal hatred in fact that manifests even today as the Jewish owned corporate and controlled media does all they can to marginalize and disenfranchise productive, intelligent, independent and hard working white folks wherever they may be. Huh? So it’s no great leap to see that once in total power, they would use that power to murder off the people they and the assorted ner-do-wells so viscerally hated. And then to lie about it afterwards.

    I guess what I’m trying to say is fuck you, but I’m just not that articulate. I wish I could say it with more eloquence and verve. I am writing here after all, and anyone reading certainly deserves to expect some effort on my part to convey my meaning in a fluent if winsome manor, but Rurik the Intemperate often is victim to his passions, and given to ardor. So I’ll just leave it at- I think you’re lying- and I think you’re lying for the most despicable reasons imaginable; to downplay the atrocities visited upon simple and honest people for no other reason than because they were honest, and simple and of a race that the Bolsheviks hated with a racial. tribal passion. IOW the racism didn’t start with the Nazis. They were taught by the best.. the insane racial hatred of the successful white Christian people of Ukraine by the race-hate consumed demons and vermin who had gotten control of Russia at the time, and unleashed the monsters from their id on these inoffensive people in a frenzy of genocidal rage that curdles the blood to contemplate.

    Polish forensic anthropologists from 2012, which refutes the Katyn propaganda narrative.

    ~see above~

    Wrong. You just equated miscegenation with genocide, just like Nazis do. Who people choose to reproduce with is their business, not yours

    who people choose to reproduce with are from the people around them. And if given a choice, most people will prefer to have others like themselves around them for many reasons, reproduction being one among them. But with white folks, choosing to live among other white folks is being increasingly verboten by the hate-consumed genocidal hatreds of men like George Soros. Of of men like Ape Foxman who would tell all white people everywhere that any desire to live and reproduce among their own kind is “racist’ and evil and wrong. (but only for white folk! For Jews to want to do this, or anyone else .. it is laudable and the best thing ever. But for white folks to want to keep their countries white, it is Nazism and must be curtailed at all costs. Huh?

    I never said he did. The first concentration camp in the sense which we understand it was operated by Austria-Hungary in 1914.

    no, they were invented by the British to slaughter off the families of the Boars during the Boar War, when Oppenheimer realized there was gold and diamonds there.

    Slavery is when you force someone to work for others.

    That definition includes the force of economic necessity. Guess again.

    No it does not. Slavery is only when another person or people are forcing you to work for others. Economic realties don’t count unless they’re being imposed by others. Like for instance if someone is using an army to destroy your crops and kill your livestock and starve your family to death. Then you can say anything you’re forced to do under those circumstances is a type of slavery for sure. But if it were just a case of working at McDonalds because of a lack of job skills or a poor economy, then that might feel like slavery, but it isn’t

    The trajectory of Ukraine since independence suggests that Soviet largesse to the Ukrainian SSR was the main thing keeping it from turning into the social and economic shithole that it’s become today.

    I stand by that sentence… blah, blah, blah… Your blithering does not refute that.

    the main thing keeping if from turning into the shithole it is today is the hardworking and good and decent and resourceful people who live there, after suffering ravages upon ravages of assorted genocidal monsters, rapacious crooks, corruption that would make your head spin, the downfall of the system of government that the area was suffering under only to make room for an even more corrupt and criminal system of government. Check out this guy Kolomoisky and what he’s been up to, to get a feel for the kind of governmental criminal klepto-crony-ism that has and is plundering and ravaging these pitiable people’s lands. They were OK under the Tsar. Then they were mercilessly genocided by the Jewish Bolsheviks who came down upon them with a steamroller of genocidal hatred the likes of which are only fathomed by comparing it to the scenes of the Holocaust we all remember from our childhoods. Massive ditches for dumping the throngs of emaciated bodies. Children so ravaged by starvation that they would not even eat a piece of bread, preferring to hoard it for fear of that terrible and relentlessly excruciating famish that was their only companion day and night until their little bodies finally succumbed to the agony and death. All of it deliberately imposed by fiends in human skin.

    Then they got to suffer the Orwellian oppression of communism for decade after soul-crushing decade. The same communism that you have the festering nads to suggest was a beneficial thing. And then once they were done with their decades of commie slavery, they treated these people to the ravages of uber-crony-capitalism-oligarch theft and misery like no other. How did you describe it..

    the plummeting standard of living for Ukrainian residents since the breakup of the USSR

    but not for Kolomoisky! For some people, the post-commie years have been very lucrative indeed! Even now the oligarchs as they’re called over there are stealing resources and shattering lives with as many bomb they can drop. Charming people these oligarchs and stooges of Israel and John McCain and the Kagan cabal. You know about the Kagans right? I’m sure you do. You could be one of them for all your lies about the Holodomor or Katyn or the joys of communism. But due keep it up please. Because it’s always a pleasure for me to correct lies and tell the simple truth. That is in fact why I’m here! I like it. ; )

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  145. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    You did yourself no favors, Mr. Denier.

    I’m not here to do myself favors fool. I’m here to tell the truth. That is my agenda. And the truth is there were and probably are a lot (dump trucks full) of lies we were all told about WWII and the Holocaust.

    Lampshades of human skin = lies

    soap made from human fat = lies

    six million = lies

    how many more lies did they tell, eh?

    how do you subtract a million or two from six million and still end up with six million? !

    If that makes me a denier, when then consider me the proudest and most adamant “denier” you’ve ever met!

    I don’t countenance lies or liars well. I consider all lies and liars to be fodder for castigation and that is my ordained destiny. If it’s a lie, then the Gods have put me here to say so. And do so I shall. ; )

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  146. Thirdeye says:
    @5371

    Had you done what I suggested instead of doing the lazy-minded thing, posting a half-assed retort, you would have found a major scholarly work by the historian Michael Kellogg, available in book and PDF form. That’s head and shoulders above most of what’s available on the net.

    • Replies: @5371
  147. Rurik says:

    You suck on it, Nazi fuck!

    now where have I heard that before…?

    who’s the one with “innate hatreds” here I wonder

    if anyone has read any of my writing here they’d all laugh at your pathetic characterization of me as being anything other than a champion of all those people you mention.

    I don’t have a drop of hatred in my soul for any people anywhere. But I do hate the lie. I do hate corruption and treachery and betrayal and bombs dropping on innocent people for the fun and profits of war pigs and human scum. Those things I do hate. And I say so. All the time. So if you were a person of good will who were trying to make a case for Europe to open it’s borders to unlimited numbers of immigrants, and I thought you were motivated by compassion, (like I believe some people are), then I’d just point out that there’s too many immigrants for Europe or N. America to take without ruining the lives of the people already there. And we could discuss it all like adults. But for any rotten, hate-consumed maggot in human skin with the pus-filled nads to call me or anyone else who questions the wisdom of unlimited immigration into our countries as “Nazis”, well then sir, I leave it to the reader to decide the nobility of motivation and levels of hate (vs. righteous outrage) that are thusly displayed. ; )

  148. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    consider me the proudest and most adamant “denier” you’ve ever met!

    Nobody doubts your sincerity in that regard. Just under the surface, Ladies and Gentlemen, this is is the club you belong to denier:

    • Replies: @Rurik
  149. annamaria says:

    “According to cyber-berkut and military intelligence, 100s of ISIS militants showed up in Mariupol in December. Witnesses claim that they see Arab speaking militants everywhere… Mariupol is completely devastated and turned into ruins by the raids of Kiev militants, Turkey Jihadists, NATO troops, and foreign PMCs. Mariupol is occupied by Ukraine, but the majority of population there supports Donetsk. Right now, there are three punitive militants on every civilian. Thousands have been executed: people were shot, burned alive, murdered by running tanks over them, hanged, beaten, and tortured. Population is brought to the extreme state of desperation”
    https://theintercept.com/2015/02/26/midst-war-ukraine-becomes-gateway-europe-jihad/
    http://thesaker.is/ukraine-sitrep-january-6th-2016-by-scott/

    Meanwhile, Kiev is busy punishing locals in East Ukraine for their crime of asking Russians for help to warm up local homes:
    “After two years waiting to be occupied by Russia, Mayor of Ukrainian town Genichevsk asked President Putin to give his people gas to get heat to his frozen town. Mayor got what he asked for. Everything is fine. Everything is happening very quietly… Kiev junta has immediately started political repressions against Genichevsk town authorities.. Neimitullaev [major of Genichevsk] was accused of illegal privatization of 1000 hectares of land that, as we all know, belong to Monsanto and the Biden’s family. His whereabouts are unknown at the time.
    On a “moral front:”
    “Next year, Ukraine won’t celebrate a New Year. It’s a holiday for Commies. Instead, all true Ukrainians will celebrate Stepan Bandera [Nazi collaborator during WWII] birthday on January 1st. With over 44 monuments to Bandera erected around the country, there will be no shortage of placed to do a pilgrimage.” http://nnr.su/95849
    http://thesaker.is/ukraine-sitrep-january-6th-2016-by-scott/

    Is not the Lobby proud re the developments in Ukraine?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  150. Thirdeye says:
    @utu

    Trotskyists rigidly held Marx’s starry-eyed vision of a worldwide wave of revolution followed by nations dissolving into stateless universal proletarian brotherhood. When that didn’t happen Trotskyists eschewed the necessity for realpolitik, which led to their marginalization. Trotsky’s ineptitude with realpolitik led to the disastrous Treaty of Brest-Litovsk. If anything, the Trotskyist insistence on Marxist orthodoxy rather than realpolitik was an example of excess idealism leading to their downfall.

  151. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    as I said, I haven’t got a drop of hate for any people, but I do hate the lie

    and one of the most vile and despicable lies out there is the suggestion that any historian or any person who doubts even one shred of minutia of the Holocaust narrative = is denying the entire thing and calling it all a fraud

    they know that no person of good will denies the Holocaust happened, but they dishonestly try to force fealty to the entire narrative by threats of smearing any dissident as a “denier”. The same tactic they pathetically and dishonestly use on skeptics of the human cause Global Warming fraud.

    That seems to be all they have. The lie. The smear. The dishonesty that has served them well in the past. But in this day and age of the Internet and the possibility for honest people to speak the truth, it become obvious how rank and vile are these self-chosen stewards of their official narratives. No different from the 911 shills who try pathetically to do damage control on that obvious lie.

    The truth is the Holocaust happened, but there were lies and exaggerations. And what’s also true is that the people who call anyone who has honest questions, a “denier”, is engaging in an attempt to bully the historical record, and impose their own dishonest agenda.

    Isn’t that right Anon666? ; )

  152. Thirdeye says:
    @geokat62

    See utu’s response re: your point about hegemony.

    Answered in post #153.

    Schwartz et al.’s coffehouse level associations with Schachtman et al., who were by that time ex-Trotskyist Social Democrats who had fallen out with the Trotskyists, did not make them Trotskyists despite what they may have claimed. If someone wanted to refer to the ur-neocons, soon to be Cold War liberals, as Schachtmanite Social Democrats, they might have some justification. But that would lack the panache of calling them Trotskyists.

  153. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    from the Saker’s link

    Instead, the Europeans talk about building fences, banning immigration, and shooting at the 3rd world people coming to their 1st world union. Not one European union politician called for normalization of life in the Middle east by leaving the Middle east alone, and giving Russia, China, India, Iran and their allies chance to bring peace to the region.

    that’s because Europe is controlled by the same people who allowed the rapists in and are foisting the war on Syria!

    and the Saker knows this

    so why is he trying to blame the people of Europe for their corrupt and demonic governments? Why is he trying to blame, (and impugn as racists) the victims of all of this treachery that is being imposed on both the people of Syria and Europe?

    Would the Saker blame the people of Syria for all the strife and carnage being foisted on their lands? They why does he blame the Europeans when all the strife they’re forced to endure is all being foisted by the same, Zio-MICorporate-Sunni scum?

  154. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    You wear your “denier” status proudly as a self-admitted fact.

    And who gives a shit when a snake claims “I am not a snake! I am not a reptile!” – it still comes out as a hisssss…

    Deny the minutiae, deny the whole thing, WGAF, but your hatred of Russians, and love for Nazi-Germans comes out with the sound of pressure being released from a valve….

    • Replies: @Rurik
  155. @Rurik

    Are you going to blame the Jews for this as well.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  156. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    Evidently you’d rather keep pulling stuff out of your ass than know the facts on the rise of ur-National Socialist ideology in imperial Russia.

    You really can not have looked into that event, the Holodomor and not see that is was obviously deliberate. Everyone who’s studied it all know it was a deliberate act.

    “Everyone” evidently doesn’t include the western demographers who scrutinized the evidence for excess mortality in the USSR from 1926 to 1939. They were doing serious professional work and had no dog in the fight. I dare you to pretend they were Jewish. Did you know that the most famous photographs purported to show starvation in the 1930s Ukraine were in fact from the Russian Civil War? That shows the level of honesty among promoters of the “Ukrainian Genocide” myth.

    …..most people will prefer to have others like themselves around them for many reasons, reproduction being one among them.

    The burgeoning population of mixed-race people in the USA indicates otherwise. I wouldn’t mind having kids like those at all. And you know who is really up in arms about intermarriage and dilution of identity in the USA? Jewish chauvinists! They’re raising the alarm about “extinction” of the “Jewish People.”

    no, [concentration camps] were invented by the British to slaughter off the families of the Boars during the Boar War, when Oppenheimer realized there was gold and diamonds there.

    Oh, I get it. Da Jooz were behind it. It was Boer, as in Dutch farmer, not Boar, as in wild pig, BTW.

    [more blithering and tapdancing]

    If you’re going to keep tapdancing, you should at least do it like these guys: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmYIo7bcUw

    If you hate lies, it must fry your brain to look in the mirror.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  157. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    Lampshades of human skin = lies

    soap made from human fat = lies

    six million = lies

    If that makes me a denier, when then consider me the proudest and most adamant “denier” you’ve ever met

    !So now you’re denying that you’re a denier after proudly proclaiming that you’re a denier for calling established and incontrovertible facts “lies.” That is what’s called “caught in the lie.”

    • Replies: @Rurik
  158. 5371 says:
    @Thirdeye

    Like I said, an idiot. You are precariously close to joining him in that category. Save yourself while you still can by rejecting the argument from (dubious) authority.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  159. 5371 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Produce a serious argument, and you will deserve a serious response.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  160. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    Deny the minutiae, deny the whole thing,

    or you’ll put 87 year old grandma’s in prison huh?

    I don’t care if it’s the virgin birth or Mohamed’s testicles or Jehovah’s lampshade

    I give fealty to no religion or no dogma or no catechism whatsoever, unless it’s the truth. Period.

    And you’re a fool for trying to suggest I have any hatred for Russians. Nothing could be further from the truth. But liars like you will eternally try to equate communism and Soviet atrocities with the Russian people, because it augments your agenda to blur the lines between the two and try to convince Russians that their grandfathers who fought against the Soviet / Bolshevik fiend were fighting against mother Russia, rather than the opposite, which is the truth. I think the truth must burn on your flesh like red-hot coals. I think the truth must eat at your guts like acid. But not to worry! Together, with your help, we can contribute to this forum and to human understanding in very positive ways as we get to the truth.

    The question we need to ask now is: does having any doubt about any part of the Holocaust narrative mean that you’re automatically denying the whole thing. And should people continue to be put in jail for their questions? Yes? No?

  161. Rurik says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    of course not

    it would be wrong and a blood libel to blame a people for crimes they had nothing to do with. That’s why I’ve always mocked the idea some people have of blaming “the Jews” for killing the Christ. This is absurd and a blood libel. There were myriad atrocities committed during that terrible war. Atrocities committed by the Japanese against the Chinese or Koreans. Atrocities committed by the Croats against the Serbians. Atrocities to go around. The Holocaust was an atrocity, even if there were no actual shrunken heads.

    But fools and agenda driven shills will try to enforce the narrative that the entire war was all about evil German Nazis who tried to genocide everyone because they didn’t have blue eye and blond hair or worst of all, because they practiced a different religion, Judaism.

    And the truth of it all is more nuanced than that. And the Germans also suffered and there was some atrocities committed by Jews too. But just saying those last few words will cause a firestorm of acrimony and red-faced howls of outrage!!! Because we’re all supposed to marinate in the cartoon version of that war. And I refuse to lock my mind in that particular cage.

  162. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    the “Ukrainian Genocide” myth.

    talk about a denier

    at least I admit that the Holocaust was real. Even if some details were made up. But you pretend to deny the entire genocidal deliberate starvation of millions of people. Wow.

    And you know who is really up in arms about intermarriage and dilution of identity in the USA? Jewish chauvinists!

    I know some.

    I too have no problem with mixed marriages. I’ve been in mixed relationships personally. I love all people. But forced diversity + forced proximity = war. Just like all the strife we’ve been discussing. And there remains people in this world that like wars and strife and hatred and misery. People like Victoria Nuland. People like Kolomoisky. People like John McCain and Angela Merkel, who would foist into her cities people with zero connection to Germany or German values and watch as the shit hits the fan, for the amusement and gloating of people who are assholes.

    Now, were there Jews behind the Boer war? I really don’t know. But when I see my country and England licking Bibi’s feet as he demands more and more and always more wars for us to fight to benefit Israel, I confess I do wonder..

    Does that ever strike you as curious? The way that arrogant man comes over here and lectures our president from the congressional podium on his unwillingness to send more of our young people’s blood and treasure to the Middle East to kill more Muslims for him? No? Nothing strange about it?

    Have you ever heard of an organization called AIPAC?

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  163. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    fool

    ~sigh~

    the pejorative “denier” means nothing in this case

    it’s like calling people climate “deniers” because they don’t buy Al Gores idiotic shtick anymore

    in order to be a real denier, you have to actually be willing to go on record and state that the Holocaust was a total fraud. And I don’t know of anyone, ever who has ever actually said such a thing. So when they call people deniers, it’s a lie. Capish? It is intended to enforce fealty to a religious-like dogmatic catechism with all the assorted dubious assertions. Like human skin lampshades that were actually made of goat skin.

    No, a real denier is the kind of person who would look at a terrible atrocity that was committed out of pure, genocidal hatred, and declare that it never happened. Now do you know of any rat that would be that rotten in his skin to do such a thing? Eh?

  164. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Regnum,

    You just pulled that magic figure rigth out of your ass.
    Historian Bernd Bonwetsch, based on Soviet and German sources, gives the numbers of ALL guerrillas in ALL of the occupied territories, not just the Ukraine, as follows:
    Late 1941: 90,000; early 1942: 80,000; mid-1942: 150,000; spring 1943: 280,000;
    summer 1944, over 400,000.
    Most of these insurgent units did not form spontaneouly either, rather, they were raised, funded, armed and controlled by the Stalin regime. Many were in fact regular red army units, which infiltrated into the rear areas or were parachuted into the rear.
    As for Vlasov and the ROA, I was not confused at all, old boy, I was merely pointing out the fact that there was a HUGE number of men, ukrainians, cossacks, russians, white russian, baltic people, etc) from the occupied territories who sided with the Germans and fought against the red army.
    As the Russian military historians S. Drobiasko and A. Karashtshuk, authors of ‘Wtoraja Mirowaja woina 1939 – 1945. Russkaya Osvoboditelnaya Armija (The Russian Liberation Army in World War II) wrote:

    “For fifty years, Soviet publications about World War II ignored the fundamental fact that more than a million of our countrymen fought on the German side.”

    Also, regular German divisions, increasingly contained a contingent of eastern volunteers(HiWi).

    For example, a German infantry div in the summer of 44 would generally include some 1,300-2,000 HiWi.

    It’s interesting how intellectually dishonest people such as Regnum, use an argument to bolster their non-existing credibility at a certain point, just to throw it out instantly the next moment when the same argument does not help their agenda.
    So “Regnum”, an unknown entity claiming to have been a teenager at the end of WWII, claimed to know things best bc he had personal experience/contact with the matters being discussed.

    But then he goes on to say that the performance of the ROA was pathetic(based on soviet propaganda), even though Solzhenitsyn, who was a Soviet officer and fought against them – and was routed – says they were extremely brave and dedicated.

    So much for the likes of shysters like regnum.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  165. Thirdeye says:
    @5371

    You simply have no argument to refute Kellogg’s work so you resort to name calling. Great.

    • Replies: @5371
  166. L.K says:
    @Thirdeye

    Thirdeye, what a handle, eh?
    You could have had 10 eyes and u’d still be blind, you shameless little liar.

    There is NO serious debate anymore( there never really was) that the murder of the poles at Katyn and elsewhere were soviet nkvd crimes.

    In 1990, Mikhail Gorbachev admitted the execution had been carried out by the NKVD and confirmed the existence of two additional burial sites at Mednoye and Piatykhatky.
    It is just that under Gorbachev, the Soviets admitted to the crime but put the blame exclusively on Beria, Merkulov and their lackeys but not on the Soviet government as such.
    Of course that was a LIE.
    Then under Yeltsin, the polish government received the documents with the names of the guilty parties; besides Stalin, the entire government and party leadership.
    By late April 2010 the Russians released for the first time documents which prove that the NKVD executed 22,000 Polish officers and other prominent citizens on Stalin’s orders.
    Interestingly, Moscow still continues to refuse to publish other important secret documents regarding the Katyn massacre… to this day.

    State owned RT, published a story in 2012, stating among other things;

    The issue was a sore spot between Russia and Poland until Soviet responsibility and the subsequent cover-up were officially acknowledged and condemned in 1990.Moscow then officially apologized for the tragedy.

    An investigation conducted by the Prosecutor General’s Office of the Soviet Union and the Russian Federation was able to confirm the deaths of Polish citizens, blaming Stalin and other Soviet officials for having personally ordered the massacre.

    In 2010 the Russian side began to release documents related to the Katyn mass execution to the Polish authorities.”

    The article also shows how the Roosevelt administration knew who the perps were but kept quiet;

    The US has long held in its possession verified documentation proving the 1940 Katyn forest massacre of several thousand Polish POWs was committed by the Soviet Union. Why did Washington conceal it: to cover-up for its wartime ally Josef Stalin.
    The Associated Press has seen newly declassified documents illuminating the Katyn Massacre, which are being released and put online by the US National Archives on Monday.”
    Read all of it at:
    https://www.rt.com/news/katyn-massacre-documents-usa-816/

    The Katyn Forest massacre provides a window into the pathetic farce known as the Nuremberg ‘show’ trials.
    The Soviet Union, a major Allied power, committed a thoroughly documented crime against unarmed POWs from Poland, the country whose invasion by Germany(but not by the Soviets who grabbed over half of it) supposedly was the reason for wWII.
    The soviets also produced falsified witness testimony and a phony “forensic report” to cover up their crime and utilized the power and authority of the tribunal at Nuremberg to hammer home their falsified version of the truth, blaming Germany for it.
    All this was fully known by the Americans and brits, as we now know.

    Only fools, shysters and quacks, take anything coming out of those ‘tribunals’ for granted.

  167. Avery says:
    @L.K

    Short reply to your revisionist reply: YES they DID.

  168. Rurik says:

    The Soviet Union, a major Allied power, committed a thoroughly documented crime against unarmed POWs from Poland, the country whose invasion by Germany(but not by the Soviets who grabbed over half of it) supposedly was the reason for wWII

    yes

    except that I don’t think all the victims at Katyn and elsewhere were necessarily POWs. I think many of them were just clergy or university professors or anyone of prominence. They were cutting the head off of Poland.

    And what you point out about how Stalin had aggressively attacked Poland with even less (zero) provocation than did Germany- whose nationals were being murdered and abused by Poland in Danzig and elsewhere, makes a mockery of the entire Nuremburg charade trials. Where witnesses had their testicles crushed and everyone carefully ignored the fact that Stalin was at least as culpable of the charge of “waging aggressive war”, which was the very charge for which the Nazis were convicted and hanged for.

  169. Avery says:
    @annamaria

    President Putin has accepted that Soviet KGB murdered those Polish people.
    If there was any evidence to the contrary, I doubt very much he would accept the blame.

    [Putin Marks Soviet Massacre of Polish Officers]
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/08/world/europe/08putin.html?_r=0
    {Some Russian leaders have continued to deny Soviet responsibility for the murders, even though Russia released archival documents in 1992 showing that Stalin’s Politburo ordered the massacre in March 1940.}

    [ Remembering the Katyn Massacre: Putin Gesture Heralds New Era in Russian-Polish Relations]
    http://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/remembering-the-katyn-massacre-putin-gesture-heralds-new-era-in-russian-polish-relations-a-687819.html

    {Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin bowed his head in honor of the thousands of Polish officers who were murdered in Katyn. Then he dropped to the ground for a moment and knelt over the graves of the dead. }

  170. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    In response to my very direct question,

    Was there or was there not a deliberate, systematic attempt on the part of the Nazis to exterminate Jews in Europe?

    you came up with these little gems:

    I’d say they intended to genocide them, insofar as genocide is considered the ethnic cleansing of a people from the lands they were born in. So yes to genocide under that definition. And did the Nazis murder Jews who they considered communists or threats of some kind? Yes. But then as I understand it, there were Jewish officers who served in the Wehrmacht

    First, that’s not the definition of genocide. Second, you implied that the Jews killed by the Nazis brought it upon themselves by being Communists or some other threat. So the Nazis were justified in killing Jews under the exigencies of war, huh? All those old men, women, and children?

    Just like lots of gentiles were murdered by the Jews in the NKVD for being gentiles.

    Oh, so the NKVD was out to exterminate gentiles! I guess Stalin and Beria were just lucky that those genocidal Jews never got them!

    I wasn’t there and I don’t know the mind of Hitler or Himmler or anyone else. But there doesn’t seem to be any proof or any official declaration of the Nazis that they wanted to exterminate all the Jews of the world.

    You never heard of the Wannsee Protocol from 1942 that outlined the plans to make Europe “Judenrein” by shipping them off to death camps?

    Even Bibi said Hitler didn’t want to do that until that Mufti told him to.

    So now Bibi’s a source for excusing Hitler, huh?

    Yes, you are a a denier that there was a deliberate, systematic attempt on the part of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews in Europe. You’re not arguing about details or numbers, you’re arguing about the fundamental Nazi intentions towards Jews.

    Yes, characterizing the 1932-1934 famine that had both natural and human contributing factors, and contributed some or most of the 3 to 5 million excess deaths in the Ukrainian and Russian SSRs between 1926 and 1939, as “Ukrainian genocide” is a bunch of hooey propagated by Ukrainian nationalists and Cold War propagandists. We know the motives of the Nazi genocide against Jews. There has never been a satisfactory explanation from Ukrainian Genocide propagandists of motive for exterminating Ukrainians, along with a comparable number of ethnic Russians, while the USSR was facing a severe shortage of manpower during industrialization. What comes out of your version is that evil Jews decided to starve a bunch of Ukrainians even though it was completely counter to meeting the objectives set by the USSR. The Ukrainian Genocide narrative is absurd on its face.

    If human decisions contributing to the famine constituted “genocide,” that would apply to the peasants who destroyed large amounts of foodstuffs and livestock, and attacked the collective farms and state food distribution apparatus, while resisting collectivization.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Rurik
  171. 5371 says:
    @Thirdeye

    If someone claims that Donald Trump’s political career is entirely inspired by his being a fanatical follower of Aleister Crowley, it doesn’t require refutation. Just laughter. I fear that soon the same will be true of you.

  172. utu says:
    @Thirdeye

    “motive for exterminating Ukrainians” – look at grain exports by Soviet Union at that time. And read about Guerre de Vendée. When revolution cannot modernize people fast enough it kills them. Peasants, kulaks were owners of land. They were self sufficient and thus could resist the new order indefinitely. Even during the Industrial Revolution in England small land owners had to be destroyed.

    “Wannsee Protocol from 1942” – you read too much into it. There was nothing about the death camps.

    Your knowledge must be coming from Nizkor, right? And your animus comes from the fact that you are a Russian Jew, right? Did you have bolsheviks in your family? How many in NKVD? How much blood on their hands?

  173. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    In response to my very direct question,

    are you a schoolmarm now? Your preposterous tone sounds like a scold. lol

    you came up with these little gems:

    I stand by every single word I’ve written on this forum (and everywhere else ; )

    First, that’s not the definition of genocide.

    Ok, I was trying to be generous. If putting people in camps and doing what you can to get rid of them, like putting them on ships and sending them away, is not genocide, then it’s not genocide.

    Second, you implied that the Jews killed by the Nazis brought it upon themselves by being Communists or some other threat. So the Nazis were justified in killing Jews under the exigencies of war, huh? All those old men, women, and children?

    and the old men, women and children killed (horrifically) in Dresden? Did they bring that all upon themselves? Unfortunately I suspect I know your answer to that question.
    Was every single Jew who was killed by the Nazis innocent of waging war against Germany? Or were there efforts by many Jews to see Germany crushed? Weren’t there Jews writing books about how Germans needed to be castrated and genocided off the planet? If the German army came upon a group of Jewish NKVD officers and their goyem thugs, with the blood of innocent Poles or Germans still dripping from their hands, would it be safe to say that such men might be legitimate belligerents in that war? Or would you prefer that we all play pretend and that every Jew that was killed by the Nazis was completely innocent of any hostility or attempts at thwarting the German war effort. But was rather simply playing his violin, and the Nazis could not stand to see non-Ayrans play the violin so well that they just killed them all because they were of a different religion and for no other reason!

    That’s the cartoon version I grew up with. The Nazis were hate-crazed psychotic racists under the thrall of an evil monster who made them hate all Jews simply for being Jews. And that all the Jews that died were all absolutely innocent completely and absolutely. And that all the German people deserved to die or suffer terribly because they were all evil and Nazis and wanted to kill every singe person that didn’t have blue eyes.

    Right?

    .. but I’ve since discovered that the truth, as always, is somewhat more nuanced.

    you implied that the Jews killed by the Nazis brought it upon themselves by being Communists or some other threat

    you see that lack of nuance? If a Jewish soldier or officer in the Soviet Army or some saboteur or traitor to the war effort is killed by the Nazis = pushing Ann Frank into an oven.

    There is to be ZERO distinction between the two. Every Jew that was killed was 100% innocent. And conversely, every German that was killed was 100% guilty. You seem to want to spout the exact same idiotic cartoon narrative that seeps and emanated from every crack and crevice in the west today, and indeed, during my entire life. But that doens’t make it true. The truth is there were Jews who were legitimate targets of the German war effort, and just like the way America put the Japanese into camps, so too the world’s Jews had declared war on Germany. So it was complicated. But complicated is hard for a lot of people. They want simplistic, cartoon versions of the world that they can understand. ‘They hate us for our freedom’. ‘You’re either with us, or against us’

    So back to your hysterical dishonesty that I “implied that the Jews killed by the Nazis brought it upon themselves”. And so we see that this is a lie. A vile and contemptible lie, but not by now unexpected. Because what I implied was that some Jews were killed by the Nazis for being communists and deadly enemies, and that the Germans under those circumstances had every right and every reason to kill such people as dead as they could make them. Whether they were Jew, Gentile, space alien or ham sandwich. If the German who came upon the graves at Katyn, and got there early enough to see the Soviets still putting bullets into those people’s necks, and were able to stop the atrocity in its tracks, and then rounded up and hanged the perpetrators, it would have been extremely likely that many of the officers of such an NKVD expedition would have been Jews. And the German might have killed them, and if so, not only would they have had every right to do so, they’d have my personal blessings as well. But to your fevered mind, that is like advocating the murder of every single Jewish person in the world, because you seem to want to imply that they can’t be separated, the innocent Jew from the guilty, or the guilty German from the innocent. We’re all supposed to knee-jerk despise all Germans during that time as evil Nazis, and all Jews as innocent victims. But I’m here to tell ya that such posturing is for imbeciles and Jewish supremacists.

    Oh, so the NKVD was out to exterminate gentiles!

    um, kinda. Yea. That’s sort of how I see it, at least in some cases. Take the case of Bela Kun for example for how occasionally Jews in power would use that power to persecute gentiles, or Genrikh Yagoda as another example. Was it the rule, or the exception? I don’t know.

    You never heard of the Wannsee Protocol from 1942 that outlined the plans to make Europe “Judenrein” by shipping them off to death camps?

    please provide a link to this plan for “death camps”. I’ve not seen it. Nor have I seen any evidence anywhere of a Nazi plan or orders for this ‘final solution’. I’m not saying there wasn’t one, and I’ve heard Hitler saying things like ‘if they force this war on Europe, the Jews of Europe will suffer’, or something to that effect. But I’ve never seen any proof of a plan for the final solution. I’m not saying there wasn’t one, or that some Nazis and others might have wanted one, but to my knowledge there is no document or other historical proof of this intent. So, Ill be curious to see your link.

    Even Bibi said Hitler didn’t want to do that until that Mufti told him to.

    So now Bibi’s a source for excusing Hitler, huh?

    Ask Bibi. He’s the one that said it. Not me.

    Yes, you are a a denier that there was a deliberate, systematic attempt on the part of the Nazis to exterminate the Jews in Europe. You’re not arguing about details or numbers, you’re arguing about the fundamental Nazi intentions towards Jews.

    I’m saying I don’t know. I wasn’t there and I’ve seen no proof. You sound like Torquemada demanding I prove fealty as a converso, but unlike his victims, I can speak my conscience, and I’ve simply seen no proof of what your describing. And I don’t bow in fealty to any dogma out of threats or puerile, sanctimonious bullying. I’ve seen a billion Hollywood movies, but I’ve learned that Hollywood just be just as capable of lies and spin and propaganda as the Nazis were known for. If not better at it. And Hollywood is run by Jews, who would have natural hostilities towards the Nazis and even the German people. And they make gazillions off of the Shoah, so they have lot$ and lot$ of motivation for keeping the Holocaust narrative in all of our minds and sympathies, now don’t they?

    Did the Nazis actually want a final solution? Perhaps some of them. But from everything I’ve glimmered and dug up and wrestled with, so far there seems to me to be no proof that this was their official intent. Too many lies about everything that was going on. But one thing I can say for certain, is that if they did have an agenda to genocide all the Jews, then that would be horrific and unforgivable, but no less so than the Morgenthau plan, that was being attempted at the highest levels of the allied governments including mine. And I’ll say this, in no uncertain terms, that attempting to murder Jews for being Jews is exactly as vile and contemptible as wanting to murder all Germans for being German. Or wanting to murder Palestinians for being Palestinian. But we never see any movies about the intrigues behind the Morgenthau plan now do we? How many movies has Hollywood made about the ongoing genocide of the Palestinian people today? Eh?

    Why is there this reverential treatment given to the (very real) Jewish victims of Nazism, but there seems to be zero interest in the Gentile victims of Jewish Bolshevism, even tho there were exponentially more of the latter? Have you ever wondered about that?

    “Ukrainian genocide” is a bunch of hooey propagated by Ukrainian nationalists and Cold War propagandists.

    as you sit there sanctimoniously (and laughably) presuming to some higher moral ground by accusing me of being a “denier” of genocide, then set about trying to deny one of the most horrific and monstrous genocides the world has ever known- more monstrous in fact than the massively publicized Holocaust, you come across as a singularly .. I’m at a loss for words…

    A monster. The type of person so consumed with the bile of his own hatreds and demons, that it is eating him up from the inside out. Whatever shred of decency or humanity you might have once had, has clearly been erased, and replaced with raw, visceral, ugly hate. Not only a hatred for other members of the human race, but a clear hatred for the truth.
    It’s no accident that someone like you and me have found each other. We’re like diametric opposites on the human landscape. I actually love the truth. I consider it my religion in fact. One of the reasons I love this site of Mr. Unz’s, is that if I say something in error, I find out right away. It’s wonderful. Because the truth is wonderful to discover. So together we’ll take this sublime journey to the gates of the Veritas. And we’ll discover just how far down that anti-rabbit hole you’re willing to poke your head out of. Ok?

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    , @L.K
    , @L.K
  174. @5371

    All my arguments are serious and it is not my fault if you are unable to grasp that fact. Even if you were able to discern a serious argument I doubt it you would be able to provide a serious answer. Most of your posts are just short irrelevant comments. If anything you remind me of a kibitz during a card game. Nobody wants your advice but you just cannot resist to give one provided it is not longer than a couple of sentences.

    • Replies: @5371
  175. @L.K

    First of all I would like to know how you have decided that I have no credibility. Do you know me personally or do you know somebody from my circle of friends? You just jumped to that conclusions without any evidence whatsoever. Is that your standard modus operandi? As far as your claim about my intellectual dishonesty is concerned can you provide some reasons why I should be dishonest? It is difficult to argue with people who do not pay attention. I have never said that I know everything best just that my personal experience helps me to sift better trough all the information and misinformation. By the way my uncle used to chase units of Bandera’s army fleeing from the Red Army and trying to fight their way to the West. He did not think much of their fighting abilities and neither did the Germans.

  176. 5371 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Clearly any response to a vacuous idiot like you is too long. I will bear that in mind in future.

    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
  177. L.K says:
    @annamaria

    Hello annamarina,

    Yes, all the men you mentioned were/are very serious war mongers and war criminals.
    In a perfect world all of them would have been tried and executed.

    That said, no, we should not only focus on the current criminals because the falsehoods and atrocity propaganda re past events enable the very same war mongers & criminals of today to perpetrate new crimes and promote new wars.
    Historically speaking, all the events of the 20th century( at least) continue to heavily influence and determine present outcomes.

    “He who controls the past controls the future. He who controls the present controls the past.”― George Orwell, 1984

    Take care.

  178. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    Because what I implied was that some Jews were killed by the Nazis for being communists and deadly enemies……

    But that doesn’t explain why approximately six million, including old men, women, and children, were slaughtered. Of course some Jews resisted, as in the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. It’s called self-defense. What’s been commented on time and time again is how little resistance there was among Jews. Hell, even the Zionists were more about trying to bargain with the Nazis to “free” the Jews, as they did with other Jew haters, than actually organizing resistance.

    But I’ve never seen any proof of a plan for the final solution. I’m not saying there wasn’t one, or that some Nazis and others might have wanted one, but to my knowledge there is no document or other historical proof of this intent. So, Ill be curious to see your link.

    You remind me of something Goering did at the Nuremberg trial. In the prosecution’s summation, they showed footage of the concentration camps just after liberation, with emaciated prisoners, mountains of dead bodies, the gas chambers, the crematoria….. When it was all over, and the whole courtroom was in stunned silence, Goering piped up that it was nothing but propaganda like Goebbels used to do. That’s what you remind me of. Google “Wannsee conference” and you will find links containing more than you want to know regarding the Nazi’s formalized plans to exterminate Jews in Europe. And that’s apparently something you don’t want to know.

    Oh, so the NKVD was out to exterminate gentiles!

    um, kinda. Yea.

    Oh, great. Yeah, those poopy-headed Jews just decided to kill a bunch of gentiles just for the hell of it.

    Here’s a link to about as objective and succinct a discussion as I could find on the Soviet famine. It doesn’t pull any punches on the ineptitude, repression, and brutality of Stalin’s policies during collectivization, or minimize the disastrous consequences. But “genocide” is clearly a politically-motivated mischaracterization.

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110313172749AARBsvL

    Here’s another link to a good discussion of whether or not whether or not it was genocide. It contains a discussion of who is promoting the “Ukrainian genocide” myth and why.

    https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20110911112156AA7Am2P

    • Replies: @Rurik
  179. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik,
    ‘thirdeye’ is not only a shameless liar but clearly an extremely ignorant fool to boot.

    When a guy writes nonsense such as “You never heard of the Wannsee Protocol from 1942 that outlined the plans to make Europe “Judenrein” by shipping them off to death camps?”,
    you know he has NO idea what he is talking about.

    In 1992, Yehuda Bauer, an Israeli professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, stated at an international conference on the genocide of the Jews held in London:
    “The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at” (Jewish Telegraphic Agency release published as “Wannsee’s importance rejected”, Canadian Jewish News, January 30, 1992, p. 8).

    Revisionist scholar, Prof.Faurisson, comments: “Apart from the fact that a careful reading of the “minutes” of the Berlin-Wannsee meeting of January 20, 1942 proves that the Germans envisaged a “territorial final solution [eine territoriale Endlösung]( as opposed to a physical extermination one ) of the Jewish question” in a geographical space to be determined, Yehuda Bauer’s quite belated declaration confirms that this major point of the case alleging the extermination of the Jews is in fact worthless.

    Let us add, in our turn, that the extermination of the Jews was decided on neither at Wannsee nor anywhere else; the expression “extermination camps” is but an invention of American war propaganda and there are examples proving that, during that war, the killing of a single Jewish man or woman exposed the perpetrator, whether soldier or civilian, member of the SS or not, to German military justice proceedings and the possibility of being shot by firing squad (in sixty years, never has a sole orthodox historian provided an explanation for such facts, revealed by the defence before the Nuremberg tribunal itself).”

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Thirdeye
  180. @5371

    Brilliant response exactly as I expected. Extremely educational. Thanks for being so predictable and confirming my assessment.

  181. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    No they did not: did not deliberately.
    OK. Take it from there.

    PS: “…wait a minute, I thought is was the Soviets who were genociding Ukrainians?”
    Are you blind ? That murderer in German uniform murdering a mother holding her baby is a Nazi German murderer.
    Do you dispute that ?

    Can’t you revisionists keep your revisionist posts straight ?

  182. According to Rurik and other assorted deniers all these people are liars. All they say and write about is just a figment of imagination and has nothing to do with reality.

    Arad, Yitzhak, Shmuel Krakowski, Shmuel Spector, and Stella Schossberger. The Einsatzgruppen Reports: Selections from the Dispatches of the Nazi Death Squads’ Campaign against the Jews, July 1941-January 1943. New York: Holocaust Library, 1989.

    Headland, Ronald. Messages of Murder: A Study of the Reports of the Einsatzgruppen of the Security Police and the Security Service, 1941-1943. Rutherford, NJ: Fairleigh Dickinson University Press, 1992.

    Hilberg, Raul. The Destruction of the European Jews. New Haven, CT: Yale University Press, 2003.

    Langerbein, Helmut. Hitler’s Death Squads: The Logic of Mass Murder. College Station: Texas A & M University Press, 2004. Mendelsohn, John, editor. The Einsatzgruppen or Murder Commandos. New York: Garland Publishing, 1982.

    Rhodes, Richard. Masters of Death: The SS-Einsatzgruppen and the Invention of the Holocaust. New York: Knopf, 2002.

    Westermann, Edward B. Hitler’s Police Battalions: Enforcing Racial War in the East. Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 2005.

  183. Rurik says:
    @Thirdeye

    But that doesn’t explain why approximately six million, including old men, women, and children, were slaughtered.

    or why the denizens of Dresden were burned alive at the end of the war. Unless you put it down to crazed, tribal, irrational human hatred unleashed. Which I suppose explains much of what happened during that mass-insanity.

    And not that it matters much, but the holy ‘six million’ number is unlikely, and just makes your case sound more like a regurgitation of the official catechisms of the Holocausitianty religion. You’re better off just saying millions of Jews and others. It sounds less like a tired mantra.

    with emaciated prisoners, mountains of dead bodies, the gas chambers, the crematoria…..

    we’ve all had the images burnt into our souls as little children. But even today I have serious doubts about these gas chambers. They don’t survive any scrutiny, and must be taken on faith, because if subjected to hard question, the gas chamber narrative withers in the sun light. Not that it matters all that much. Jews were murdered, Catholics were murdered, gays were murdered, Slavs were murdered, and so too were Germans murdered, some by the Nazis, and millions upon millions of them murdered after the war was over by- how did I put that? “crazed, tribal, irrational human hatred unleashed.” Yep, that’s about it.

    Yeah, those poopy-headed Jews just decided to kill a bunch of gentiles just for the hell of it.

    have you ever wondered why they hated the Jews so much? Why the Poles hated them with a genocidal passion? Why the most advanced and cultured people in Europe at the time, the Germans, hated them? Why for instance they’ve relentlessly been ejected from most regions in the world at some time in history? Is it always the irrational hatred of crazed anti-Semites? Or is there perhaps a less kosher explanation? What I can tell you is that all the Jews I know are good and decent and intelligent and pleasant people, often in the extreme. But those are working and middle class Jews that are often married to gentiles and are not frothing Zionists, or hate crazed liberals like Tim Wise. So from my personal experience, it’s completely incomprehensible why anyone would want to harm these people. But the world isn’t made up of Rurik’s personal experiences. There’s other stuff out there. There’s what the Palestinians have had to suffer for generation after tormented generation. If a Palestinian should have it in his heart the desire to see the Jews expelled (or even exterminated), although I would never condone such a thing, I could certainly understand why he might feel that way. Or the Hungarians who suffered under Bela Kun, or the Germans who watched what was done to their country after WWI. There is sometimes some very dark treachery that Jews are sometimes involved with. Like knowing about 911 and not warning us. Other stuff that sort of makes you pause. So if you’re telling me that it’s impossible and outrageous to suggest that Jews might occasionally abuse the power they wield over Gentiles, and even murder them, even as Gaze sits in ruins, all I can say is that I’ll have to add myopia to your myriad character flaws.

    I understand there is some doubts as to the homicidal intent of the conference you’re talking about. There was talk of shipping the Jews to Madagascar, but no doubt they wanted them out of Europe.

    Perhaps this might be why:

    But I will concede that the Nazis may have wanted to genocide them. At least the ones remaining in Europe. So I’m not saying it didn’t happen. Jews were persecuted and even murdered by the Nazis, just like so many others.

    But your suggestion that the deliberate and cruel and monstrous genocide of the Kulaks was nothing, or if anything their own fault, is quite beyond the pale. And betrays a lopsided and twisted personality disorder based on dishonesty and one-sided sympathy, as if the only suffering that ever matters in the world is Jewish suffering. And remarkably, that is exactly what some rabbis actually espouse, and believe it or not, what some Jews, (the ones who deserve what they get) believe.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Thirdeye
  184. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    {…or why the denizens of Dresden were burned alive at the end of the war. ….}

    Residents of Dresden were burnt alive, because their Führer invaded Europe, attacked UK, invaded USSR.

    Start of WW2 by Nazi Germany 1939.
    Firebombing of Dresden by US and UK air forces: 1945.
    Case closed.

    Nazi murderers were responsible for the deaths of 50-60 million human beings.
    Nazi Germans started WW2.

    Allies committed war crimes in firebombing of Dreseden: no doubt about it.
    But Nazi Germans committed Genocide against 10s of millions of Jews, Slavs, and other Untermenschen.
    There are indirect deaths due to war conditions, atrocities, massacres, war crimes – and Genocide.

    German people should have thought about it when they were lining up the streets 4-5 years back and cheering on the SS murderers who were goosestepping smartly towards East: to create Lebensraum for the alleged Aryan Master race, by exterminating the Slavs, who inconveniently were living on the fertile lands the Nazis coveted.

    [Germany S S Marching Military Nazy Music Adolf Hitler ]

    Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil.

    War is Hell.

    A Master-race Aryan, having been taken prisoner, like a sewer rat, by one of those “Untermenschen”.

    More exterminated sewer rats:

    War is Hell.

  185. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    ‘thirdeye’ is not only a shameless liar but clearly an extremely ignorant fool to boot.

    and you’re being generous LK

    I don’t know if he’s being sincere about the Holocaust, but if he isn’t flat out lying about the deliberate Ukrainian genocide, it’s just as bad, because that one was notorious and is evident with even a cursory glance at the records.

    • Replies: @Avery
  186. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    Two Neo-Nazi revisionists congratulating each other on their revisionism.

    Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil, Sieg Heil.

  187. Rurik says:

    Residents of Dresden were burnt alive, because their Führer invaded Europe, attacked UK, invaded USSR.

    if the residents of Tel Aviv suffer the same fate, will you be just as swaggering and smug?

    And Germany did not want that war. It was foisted upon them by the treachery and intrigues of Europe and International Bankers. If Germany started the war, then they did so with exactly the same level of complicity as Stalin’s Russia – who was the bestest buddy ever of the allies, which makes a mockery of all your pathetic and empty bluster.

    • Replies: @Avery
  188. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    I am not Jewish.
    I am not Israeli.
    No swagger.
    No smug.
    And what does Tel Aviv have to do with WW2?
    Are you Neo-Nazi revisionists comparing what Israel is doing to Palestinians with what your genocidal Nazi kin did to to Jews, Slavs, and other “subhumans” ?

    And what does Israel have to do with Nazi Germany ?
    You got a problem with Jews or Israelis, bring it up to them.
    I am not Jewish.
    I am not Israeli.
    I am Armenian, Orthodox Christian.
    Formerly from Armenia SSR.
    Armenia SSR, and other SSRs sent about 600,000 Armenian men to defeat Nazi mass-murderers. Genocidal Nazis allied with Genocidal Turks.

    About 300,000 Armenians were KIA.
    From a base population of about 1 million.
    God bless the Red Army for wiping out the Nazi genocidal invaders.
    God bless Armenian warriors of Red Army for doing their part to wipe out the genocidal Nazi scourge.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  189. Thirdeye says:
    @L.K

    From the minutes of the Wannsee Conference:

    Under proper guidance, in the course of the final solution the Jews are to be allocated for appropriate labor in the East. Able-bodied Jews, separated according to sex, will be taken in large work columns to these areas for work on roads, in the course of which action doubtless a large portion will be eliminated by natural causes.

    The possible final remnant will, since it will undoubtedly consist of the most resistant portion, have to be treated accordingly, because it is the product of natural selection and would, if released, act as a the seed of a new Jewish revival (see the experience of history.)

    Naaah, they weren’t talking about extermination at all. And I’m sure “treated accordingly” meant putting them up in five star hotels – you know, all those places at the ends of rail lines surrounded by electric fences. They had weight loss programs, occupational entertainment, and big shower facilities. Those poor Nazis were so misunderstood!

    Thanks for showing everyone what you are.

  190. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik:

    I’ve seen a billion Hollywood movies, but I’ve learned that Hollywood just be just as capable of lies and spin and propaganda as the Nazis were known for. If not better at it. And Hollywood is run by Jews, who would have natural hostilities towards the Nazis and even the German people. And they make gazillions off of the Shoah, so they have lot$ and lot$ of motivation for keeping the Holocaust narrative in all of our minds and sympathies, now don’t they?

    I gotta tell ya Rurik, that Hollywood propaganda makes NS propaganda appear mild by comparison. In fact, WWII allied propaganda was much less truthful than NS propaganda, though we are never told that.
    As for Hollywood, not a freaking year goes by these folks don’t offer us some holo hoax treat, even if, sometimes, it has to be somewhat disguised as pop culture. Remember one of them x-men movies, where one of the key x-dudes turns out to be a Jew who survived internment in a natzi camp, but his mom is murdered by a sadistic natzi fiend? This year i hear that for the foreign movie oscar line-up, there r at least 2 movies dealing with the holohoax. Yawwnnnn…

    Anyway, Hollywood is cute. You know, they really, really care about r-a-c-i-s-m.
    White goy racism that is. Not the much, much more real Israeli/Jewish racism.
    Isn’t it cute all these slavery movies that get made by Hollywood, in which we are always presented with white Christian fiends, shouthern rednecks and the like?
    I’ve never seen even one of these movies mention the absolutely key role played by Jews in the transatlantic slave trade. And it was not only to the US, but the jews were heavily involved in the slave trade in the Caribbean and South America too.
    Ever heard of the israeli Hollywood movie producer, Arnon Milchan?
    Produced ’12 years a slave’, how cute! A zionist rat and jewish supremacist producing movies about slavery and evil racist white dudes in the 19th century, while studiouly ignoring what happens in Israel, probably the most racist country in the world.
    Arnon Milchan is quite the guy… a Mossad spy no less, who spent years stealing US military secrets for Israel. Nothing ever happens to him.
    “Ex”-CIA, Mr.Giraldi, has written about him:

    […]In his November 25th interview on Israeli television Milchan admitted that he had spent his many years in Hollywood as an agent for Israeli intelligence, helping obtain embargoed technologies and materials that enabled Israel to develop a nuclear weapon. He worked for Israel’s Bureau of Science and Liaison acquisition division of Mossad, referred to as the LAKAM agency. It was the same organization that ran Jonathan Pollard and Ben-Ami Kadish.

    Milchan, who is a long-time resident of the United States and still has significant business interests in this country, explained “I did it for my country and I’m proud of it.” He also said that “other big Hollywood names were connected to [his] covert affairs.”[…]

    Quite worth reading it all; http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/the-hollywood-spy/

    Investigative jornalist C.Bollyn has written about Milchan in his book ‘solving 9-11’ and in some articles. There is even a 9-11 connection, read on:

    “If one considers the known evidence of Israeli prior knowledge of 9/11, the Odigo text messages and the five arrested Mossad agents, for example, as indicative of Israeli state involvement in the crime, the identity of the hidden power behind the cover-up is rather obvious. The “hidden hand” suppressing the information about 9/11 would have to be a high-level person in the Israeli political-military intelligence establishment who has very close relations with media kingpins like Murdoch, Levin, and Eisner. Arnon Milchan (a.k.a. Milchen) is such a person.

    While millions of Americans have watched his films, such as Pretty Woman and JFK, very few know that Arnon Milchan is a “best friend” of Shimon Peres (born Szymon Perski in Wiszniewo, Poland) the Israeli president and godfather of Israel’s nuclear arsenal.
    […]
    Indeed, very little is known about Milchan, Israel’s super weapons agent, except that he spends more time in Tel Aviv and France than he does in his office on the 20th Century Fox lot in Los Angeles, according to Bardach. Now, why would a Hollywood movie producer spend more time in Tel Aviv, where no movies are being made, than in Hollywood?
    […]
    Milchan is a “go-between for American weapons manufacturers and the Israeli government, thus playing a major role in the strengthening of the Israeli military,” according to Current Biography (2000). “Throughout the 1970s, 1980s, and even up until the Gulf War in 1991, Milchan was Israel’s foremost weapons procurer, brokering deals for such prized superweapons as the Hawk missile and the famous Scud-foil of the Gulf War, the Patriot,” Bardach wrote.

    “At different times in his career, his Israeli company, Milchan Brothers, has represented arms manufacturers such as Raytheon, North American Rockwell, Beechcraft, Bell Helicopter and Magnavox.
    […]
    In 1992, Milchan was described by the Jerusalem Post as being “among the handful of Hollywood moguls with the muscle and money to single-handedly give the go-ahead for a new movie project. The Mossad is undoubtedly the source of much of Milchan’s “muscle and money.”
    […]
    Milchan also funds Christian Zionist movements. Milchan has reportedly contributed significantly to the Christian Coalition, an organization started by the Reverend Pat Robertson, a staunch supporter of Israel.

    ————-
    http://www.bollyn.com/9-11-archive-2011/

    “One of the most interesting things I learned was that Milchan’s first big film, in which he invested two million dollars, involved a key scene in which a passenger airliner is flown into a high rise building. The British/French film, The Medusa Touch, was released in 1978.
    […]
    It should be noted that Arnon Milchan is one of Israel’s longest serving and most senior intelligence agents, having served the State of Israel since the early 1960s. For Milchan to produce a film that depicts an airliner flying into a high rise in the same year (1978) that the former head of Israeli intelligence predicted an attack by Arab terrorists on the tallest building in New York City is certainly no coincidence. This is when the terrorist Likudniks came to power in Israel and when high level Israeli terrorists began planning 9/11. Milchan’s movie was useful in visualizing the false-flag attacks that occurred 23 years later.

    Milchan’s partnership with Rupert Murdoch and Fox TV began in 1998. Two years later this partnership produced the pilot episode of The Lone Gunmen in which a passenger airliner was hijacked by remote control and flown into the World Trade Center. The program aired on Fox TV in March 2001.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lone_Gunmen_(TV_series)#Series_overview
    …In the premier episode, which aired March 4, 2001, members of the U.S. government conspire to hijack an airliner, fly it into the World Trade Center, and blame the act on terrorists to gain support for a new profit-making war. The episode aired six months prior to the September 11 attacks.[5]

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    , @Rurik
  191. Thirdeye says:
    @L.K

    Oh, great. A denier of Nazi genocide against Jews and a 9/11 “Truther.” A twofer.

  192. @Anon999

    The Nazis didn’t do anything to the Moldovans. The Bolshevics did.

  193. @Rurik

    The truth is the Holocaust happened

    • Replies: @Rurik
  194. Rurik says:
    @Avery

    God bless the Red Army for wiping out the Nazi genocidal invaders.

    you know generally I treasure the input and perspective of so many different nationalities and viewpoints. One of the great privileges of the Internet in general and here at the UR as well. But then occasionally they bring with them their dirty laundry and petty parochial malice and spite. When that happens, it’s just tiresome. Yawn

    • Replies: @Avery
  195. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    great post LK,

    and of course I know you’re right about Hollywood’s psychotic hatred of Christian, hetero, unapologetic white men. For me it buoys me to imagine how much grief it must give them as I live and thrive and love with great passion as an unapologetic white man. Nothing they can do about that except grit their teeth and seethe in quiet rage.

    But then again, on Drudge this morning is news to sooth their aching souls

    MIGRANT SEX ASSUALTS SWEEP EUROPE:

    Unprecedented harassment in Helsinki…

    Attacks in Sweden…

    Gang rapes in Germany…

    and remember, it isn’t just Jews who foist this kind of thing on Europe and everywhere else they can. Even here in the Unz, when I speak up for things like the rights of the Palestinians, I sense an approval from many of the people here, in particular those of the fairer gender. But as soon as I say something about preventing massive immigration, then from those same people I sense a cold resolve that I lack compassion and have racist tendencies. But look at what’s going on over there. And not just Europe but Sweden and Norway and all the gang rapes and women afraid to go out alone in their own countries. Why are women so callous towards other women’s plight when a brutal gang rape or outrage is committed specifically by a minority?

    And these are not Jews we’re talking about. But somehow the female tendency towards compassion has been hijacked in their psyches to dismiss the suffering of girls and young women in favor of the rapists and thugs. It just goes to show how malleable is the human response for sympathy, and I suspect these people I’m referring to have marinated in the matrix of Jewish liberalism for so long that dismissing the suffering of raped or brutalized girls, just becomes one more kneejerk conditioned response. From Rotherham to Cologne to their own back yard.

    – just musing here-

  196. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    America put the Japanese in concentration camps, and it was a hardship on them. And in some cases anyways, it must have been unfair if the citizens were patriotic Americans and no threat.

    Germany did the same thing to commies and Jews and homosexuals and others. Those camps were often brutal, perhaps more so from the antics of the kapos than even from the guards, but there can be no doubt that it happened. These camps and the inconvenience and forced labor or death from typhus to starvation at the end of the war, is what has come to be called the Holocaust. And it is undisputed.

    Now the degree of the Holocaust is of course debatable. The geysers of blood shooting out of the ground, the evil Nazi surgeons sewing Jew’s hands where their feet should go and vise-versa. Bears and eagles brought in for executions.

    http://judicial-inc-archive.blogspot.com/2010/07/bears-of-buchenwald.html

    but the most preposterous and iniquitous thing of all about the Holocaust narrative is the way it is treated as something unique. And by that I’m not talking about the millions of Catholic and Polish and homosexual and communist victims of every stripe. I’m talking about the specifically Jewish victims. Of whom there were legion. But any pretense that those Jewish victims were somehow more meaningful or sacrosanct than any other victims of war crimes anywhere in history before or since, is morally revolting. All victims of war crimes are equal. From the Amerindians of the N. American Plains down to the swamps of Florida, all the way to the Palestinians who’re suffering these outrages even today. They’re all equal in the eyes of God. And any God who doesn’t’ see it that way, isn’t worth pissing on. Or his worshipers. Well, maybe they’re worth pissing on..

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  197. @Rurik

    oh please, Rurik.
    You expect anyone with an IQ above freezing to be persuaded by photos that include Shrunken Heads and skin-lampshades, just because the always reliable New York Times published work by a Jewish student at a Jewish university??

    What next — the lady who crapped diamonds is going to recant — it was really pearls.

    While I agree completely with your statement that all victims are equal, I also demand that all criminals be treated equally. Jewish persons, in league with FDR and Churchill were at the forefront of provoking the war that eventuated in the many victims, German, Polish, Russian, and Jewish, whose lives were ruined. Only Germans have been called to account for their actions. To their credit, the German people have borne that burden. But to their detriment, they have been subjected to such enormous trauma during- and in the aftermath- of the war that, imo, they have lost their moral compass in the opposite extreme.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  198. annamaria says:

    A voice in the DC wilderness: http://www.counterpunch.org/2016/01/08/russia-as-explained-to-russians-by-americans/
    “…Russians can see with their own eyes how the Western media lies about them day after day. There have been several articles lately based on polls that show that anti-western sentiments are increasing in Russia, and blaming it on “Putin’s propaganda”.”

  199. And these are not Jews we’re talking about. But somehow the female tendency towards compassion has been hijacked in their psyches to dismiss the suffering of girls and young women in favor of the rapists and thugs. It just goes to show how malleable is the human response for sympathy, and I suspect these people I’m referring to have marinated in the matrix of Jewish liberalism for so long that dismissing the suffering of raped or brutalized girls, just becomes one more kneejerk conditioned response.

    It’s been years since I heard this discussion but every time I think about it my blood boils.

    British philosopher (and self-serving twit) A C Grayling and Christopher Hitchens (RIH — rot in hell) debated the morality of bombing civilians in wartime. They were hosted by the Goethe Institute in Washington, DC.

    Their arguments were bad enough.

    What got me was the introductory comments by the head of the Goethe Institute, Heribert Uschtrim. In explaining the decision to host such a debate in a German cultural institute, Uschtrim said:

    First, I felt shame. Because you see I think that a person or group of persons that did atrocious crimes and caused unimaginable suffering to so many people should not dwell on their own suffering.

    In Uschtrim’s view, it is appropriate to dismiss the rape of 2 million German women — from the elderly to little girls.

    words fail.

    FDR knew full well the character of the Red Army that he paid to attack Germany.
    Henry Morgenthau, Jr., who wrote the checks that paid that marauding troop, had precisely that sort of devastation in mind as early as 1933, well before a single Jewish person lathered up for a shower in a non-existent gas chamber. So did Theodore Kaufman. So did Ilya Ehrenburg.

    They are all guilty of the rapes of 2 million German women.

    That the director of the German cultural institute holds the lives of German women in such low regard presages the mindset that permits the present rape of German women by thugs that Erdogan and his Israeli and Saudi co-conspirators unleashed upon Europe.

    They get away with it today because they got away with it nearly a century ago.

    Justice for Germans — what some call holocaust denial — is about far more than knocking the pins out from what I am convinced is the biggest con in history; it is about setting history aright, because the false history that we have been force-fed, and that Heribert Uschtrim has absorbed to utterly, has placed us on a path to a hell that would beggar Dante.
    We are on the wrong path; we Americans have deviated entirely from the values counseled by George Washington in his Farewell Address.

    Over the last week or so C Span has replayed a clip of Obama pushing back against the demand that the US “carpet bomb Syria.” “That’s not who we are,” intones the US president.

    But it is who we were.
    And inasmuch as so many Americans blithely support the actions taken in their name in Israel, Iraq, Syria, etc., it very much is who we still are.

    WE, the People, have never come to grips with the enormity of the crimes that were committed in our names against Arabs and Germany at Versailles; against Eastern and Western Europeans (as well as Iranians) in WWII; against peoples of the Middle East in the years since.

    We Americans have been seduced to believe that our acts in World War II were and are acts of virtue. Journalist-turned-historian Rick Atkinson envisions himself as the American Homer and seeks to write the American epic about the liberation of Europe.

    I consider Atkinson’s ambition and pov an obscenity.

    I’ve encountered petty crooks in my practice who likewise thought their criminal acts were completely justifiable, even worthy of commendation — after all, it made them feel good, and nobody caught them, or called them to account. It’s not much different from any other addiction. It’s virtue — until they hit the wall.

    I hope German women summon the gumption to fight back, and thereby open the Pandora’s box of the evil that was done to them that their culture has been forced to deny and to accommodate for going on three generations.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @5371
    , @Rurik
  200. @SolontoCroesus

    forgot the link to the Grayling-Hitchens talk hosted by Goethe Inst. —

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?192374-1/book-discussion-among-dead-cities

    nb. ‘edit’ is not functioning at all

  201. 5371 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    The turd Hitchens has croaked now. Unfortunately medical narcotics may have saved him from experiencing all the pain he deserved in his death.

  202. Thirdeye says:
    @Rurik

    have you ever wondered why they hated the Jews so much?

    Same reason Roman Catholics hated Muslims, Orthodox Christians, and Pagans. Same reason the Czarists hated other “impure” non-Orthodox Russians. Honestly, can you think of any neighboring group that the Poles don’t hate? If the Germans had anyone deserving of hate for perfidy after WWI it was the French, who hustled Britain into the war and the British, who hustled the US into the war then showed complete disrespect for most of their former allies. If I were in the western Ukraine or Belarus I would hate the British for ratifying the conquest of my homeland by Poland with the Treaty of Riga. And my own roots are Brit. The Czar was also hateworthy but he was dead. Turning all of that legitimate frustration against Jews was pure chickenshit.

    I don’t see a problem with the approximate figure of 6 million Jews killed in the concentration camps and at the hands of the Einsatzgruppen. I do have a problem with the fact that the 3+ million other concentration camp victims are largely ignored in the west, along with the multiple millions of Russians who died under the privations of their German conquerors. Much easier to pretend it was the Commies’ fault.

    I never said that the death and suffering in Russia, Ukraine, and Kazakhstan during the famine didn’t matter. But the responsibility for that suffering is shared between Soviet bureaucrats and those who destroyed food and food producing facilities for political reasons. “Kulaks,” whatever that term means, were not an ethnicity. They were an economic class with both real and imaginary components. Whatever happened to them was not genocide. If all suffering is equal, why is the suffering within the Ukraine the only suffering we hear about in the west? It doesn’t take a genius to see that the suffering in the Ukraine was exploited for political purposes by Ukrainian nationalists and cold warriors, just like the suffering of millions of Jews has been exploited by Zionists for political purposes.

    • Replies: @L.K
  203. Svigor says:

    Kevin MacDonald seems to be very hostile to Catholic and also Orthodox churches. So he does not mention that the resurrection of Christianity in Putin’s Russia that may reverse the moral degeneration caused by JudeoBolshevic regime is also a very important factor in hostility towards Putin Russia by Jewish neocons and neoliberals. Perhaps he does not understands it because he shares similar hostility. Both neocons and neoliberals have Trostkyist roots. Trocki was rejected by Stalin who promoted rather traditional morality (minus religion) and nationalism. Putin’s Russia seems to follow the similar path plus Christianity.

    Kevin MacDonald may have a thing against Christianity. Or he may have a thing against Catholicism. I have seen neither, but it’s plausible.

    KMac having a thing against Orthodox Christianity is very unlikely. Orthodox just aren’t on a westerner’s radar enough for them to care.

    On the other hand, it is plausible that he has a thing against centrally-organized, hierarchical churches, which would mean Catholic & Orthodox. I wouldn’t say I have a thing against them, per se, but I think they’re a bad idea. Too easy to corrupt from the top. Jews and Protestants have the right idea; decentralize, like the Internet.

    I lived happily under socialism till 1989 and did not notice any genocide from the government.

    And since the Soviet press was so open and honest, you can be sure there was none.

    • Replies: @FLOR solitaria
  204. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    {you know generally I treasure the input and perspective of so many different nationalities and viewpoints. }

    You treasure the input of your fellow Nazi apologists: what a surprise.

    { But then occasionally they bring with them their dirty laundry and petty parochial malice and spite. }

    Glad you recognize your true revisionist self.
    Sieg Heil.

  205. annamaria says:

    A brief outline of a situation in Syria:
    1. A civil war in Syria is still going on only because several countries (the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan) have been violating the territorial integrity of the state of Syria by supporting the so called “rebels”
    2. The rebels are predominantly against a secular state; the majority of them are for sharia law. A large percentage of the rebels are indistinguishable from ISIS re their inspirations and methods
    3. By arming and financing the rebels, and therefore by promoting fragmentation of Syria, the hostile countries (the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan) have been preventing the restoration of Syrian statehood – thus making it impossible for Syrians to fight ISIS. It is safe to say that if not the US-approved and ongoing civil war in Syria, the ISIS would have been eliminated there long time ago.

    In short, the US have been creating another monster

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @geokat62
  206. RobinG says:
    @annamaria

    Some of us feel that Syrian “civil war” is a misnomer, and that from the beginning there has been outside instigation and provocation, as well as financial and material support.

    Hence the significance of H.R.4108 – To prohibit the use of funds for the provision of assistance to Syrian opposition groups and individuals.

  207. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Shrunken Heads and skin-lampshades

    it’s a parody site

    FDR and Churchill were at the forefront of provoking the war that eventuated in the many victims

    George Bush and Tony Blair

    how little things seem to change, eh?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  208. geokat62 says:
    @annamaria

    A civil war in Syria is still going on only because several countries (the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan)…

    By arming and financing the rebels, and therefore by promoting fragmentation of Syria, the hostile countries (the US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan)…

    In short, the US have been creating another monster

    Annamarina, it is extremely important to make crystal clear who is primarily responsible for fomenting all the chaos in the region. To that end, I would offer the following suggested revisions:

    A civil war in Syria is still going on only because several countries (the US on behalf of Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan)…

    By arming and financing the rebels, and therefore by promoting fragmentation of Syria, the hostile countries (the US on behalf of Israel, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, and Jourdan)…

    In short, the US on behalf of Israel have been creating another monster.

    I recommend reading the following article to gain a better understanding of who the primary beneficiary is from all the chaos in the regime:

    Indeed, it is Washington’s Israeli-occupied foreign policy that has enabled Israel’s “seize the chaos” doctrine by using America’s vast imperial might to create so much seizable chaos in the first place…

    So for the sake of Israel, and since at least 2007, Washington, along with its regional allies, has been waging a broad covert proxy war to undermine the “Shia crescent.” This policy pivot, which legendary journalist Seymour Hersh dubbed “The Redirection,” has involved supporting Sunni Islamist mujahideen in Lebanon, Syria, and Iran.

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/isis-israel-iraq-and-syria-its-all-part-of-the-plan/210235/

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @L.K
  209. annamaria says:
    @geokat62

    “…the US on behalf of Israel…”

    But it is the US money& limb that have been the major aggressive force in the Middle East wars. Therefore, the US must take responsibility for the wars. If the US electorate does not like the responsibility, than the US deciders and enablers must be revealed name by name and punished for the betrayal of the US – and humanity’s at large – interests.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  210. geokat62 says:

    Therefore, the US must take responsibility for the wars.

    As you know annamarina, my list of those I hold responsible for launching an illegal war of aggression against Iraq includes key figures of the Bush administration.

    While I agree with you that “the US must take responsibility for the wars,” the point I’m trying to make is that the neocons/Israel firsters must take primary responsibility for pushing the US to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    That said, I guess you are in agreement with Avery that an assassin is more responsible for killing someone than the person who paid him to do so.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @RobinG
  211. L.K says:
    @geokat62

    Geo:
    “In short, the US on behalf of Israel have been creating another monster.”

    Exactly & thanks for the link

  212. @annamaria

    annamarina, you have to understand that, on this here animal farm, some pigs are definitely more equal than others. Not all of us have the connections, influence and political pull of the neocons et al. So should we all–each and ever single one of us–be held equally guilty for these wars? I say no. I say that the neocons are far guiltier than I am.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  213. Avery says:
    @geokat62

    {….the point I’m trying to make is that the neocons/Israel firsters must take primary responsibility for pushing the US….}.

    Right [geokat62]: I remember the example you brought up about the LA murder of that wife of the savage gold dealer. The poor woman’s throat was cut while she was leaving her office.
    I would have thought the one who hired the assassins, the husband, would not get the death penalty: have to admit it was a surprise. Probably the thinking in these individual criminal cases would be that a smart manipulator hiring a dumb murderer should not get a lesser penalty. It makes sense.

    However, I still do not see why people hold the Israel-firsters in US (Pearl, Wolfowitz,…) as primarily responsible for the war crime of Iraq invasion. I don’t get it.
    I mean, US is not one individual. Bush is a blue-blood Christian Anglo-Saxon. So is Cheney. The Joint-Chiefs are not Jewish. The overwhelming super-majority of US officer corps are not Jewish. I maintain that if US non-Jewish/Israeli interests did not want the invasion of Iraq, it would not happen.

    The same Israel-firsters tried, and tried, and tried to have US bomb Iran: it didn’t happen.
    My understanding is that politicians wanted it, but Pentagon pushed back.
    And if we believe Hersh, then Pentagon secretly thwarted US politicians’ evil goals in Syria.

    My view is that there was a confluence of interests and profit (MIC) in attacking Iraq: Israel-firsters saw the opportunity and took advantage. And US military is not always shy to get into wars. Particularly the brass (assuming they themselves don’t get bloodied). During war time brass get fast promotions. Your pay grade goes up. War time pay is a lot more than peacetime pay. You get bonuses. If you don’t get killed, you (US military) make out handsomely. Halliburton stock goes up. Large stock owners cash in (…while American taxpayers foot the bill, and their sons get killed and maimed).

    That’s how I see it.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @geokat62
    , @anonymous
  214. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    Geo, good on you for persisting. You see, there are IMO two factors at work.

    1. Some denial of the significance of the Israel Lobby, even from someone well within our ranks.

    2. A recognition that (as Sam has asserted) there a multiple agendas, i.e. besides the I. Lobby and Yinon Plan devotees, there are the new cold warriors/Brzezinski types aimed at encircling Russia, plus weapons sales/profit motivated MIC, and the remnants of oil.

    If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  215. @Rurik

    “it’s a parody site.”

    what a stupid tactic.

    reduces you to a parody, Rurik.

    have a nice life.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  216. annamaria says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    “So should we all–each and ever single one of us–be held equally guilty for these wars?”

    This is what the Germans went through. At least, the majority of their “deciders” (those Nazis that were not protected by the US) were punished after the Nuremberg trial.
    http://www.theblaze.com/blog/2014/10/28/why-did-the-u-s-government-hire-over-1000-former-nazis-after-world-war-ii/
    Mr. Dulles believed “moderate” Nazis might “be useful” to America:”
    “At the height of the Cold War in the 1950s, law enforcement and intelligence leaders like J. Edgar Hoover at the F.B.I. and Allen Dulles at the C.I.A. aggressively recruited onetime Nazis of all ranks…”
    The same moral relativism has been inspiring the makers of various regime changes. Nuland-Kagan (a protege of both Hillary Clinton and Dick Cheney) is a prime example.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Rurik
  217. RobinG says:
    @Avery

    Avery,

    Indeed there must be confluence, but you are underestimating the significance of the Israel Lobby. For politicians, both money and media are needed, and the Lobby has both. Controlling most of US media, the Lobby – and Jews in general since they won’t usually contradict the tribe – has far greater influence than mere polling numbers suggest.

    About Hersh, think again about what he said about the Pent
    agon. Their Generals’ ‘sabotage’ was soft. They may have sent older weapons, but they still sent them. Also look what he said about the Christian Zionist/Evangelical cabal in the Pentagon. Lately there’s been writing elsewhere about the apocalyptic mind-set of some in the military.

    And promotions? They want to go out on top, if they can, but those salaries are peanuts compared to what they’ll make when they get out and ‘consult’ for military contractors or on Wall Street. David Petraeus left in disgrace to land in luxury.

    http://billmoyers.com/2014/02/21/anatomy-of-the-deep-state/
    Essay: Anatomy of the Deep State
    by Mike Lofgren

  218. RobinG says:
    @annamaria

    Holding the biggest culprits to account is #5 on Geocat’s list of demands. He is launching a campaign—

    “A Declaration of Independence from Israel”
    And here are the top 10 demands we’ll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    • Replies: @Avery
  219. L.K says:
    @Thirdeye

    But of course you don’t have a problem with the cabalistic 6 million figure, a Philo-semite and shameless stalinist liar such as yourself sure would not.

    Except the number has ZERO basis on facts. More on this later.

    While there is hardly any real evidence the NS tried to exterminate the jews – and the holocau$t quack historians know it – there is a LOT of evidence which refute it.

    There is also a lot of evidence supporting the many crimes committed by the Stalin regime, much of it from the only partially opened Soviet archives. There are still hundreds of thousands of top secret folders and documents from the Stalin era which are still under lock and key by the Russian federation government. The dirtiest secrets have yet to be revealed.

    There is also more than enough evidence as to the highly disproportionate and probably decisive role played by a minority(the Jews) in the Bolshevik regime, effectively dominating the Soviet government during its early years and continuing to play a key role until at least the purges of 1936/7. Soviet historians AND most Western historians as well have for decades studiously ignored this subject. The evidence, though, cannot be denied.

    In 2006, a remarkable article re the Bolshevik regime appeared in, of all places, the Israeli news source Ynet News.

    Titled “Stalin’s Jews” and written by Jewish columnist Sever Plocker, the article discussed the terrible crimes which Jewish Communists had committed under Stalin:

    We must not forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish,” Plocker started out by saying. He went on to make a number of confessions:

    “Here’s a particularly forlorn historical date: Almost 90 years ago, between the 19th and 20th of December 1917, in the midst of the Bolshevik revolution and civil war, Lenin signed a decree calling for the establishment of The All-Russian Extraordinary Commission for Combating Counter-Revolution and Sabotage, also known as Cheka.
    Within a short period of time, Cheka became the largest and cruelest state security organization. Its organizational structure was changed every few years, as were its names: From Cheka to GPU, later to NKVD, and later to KGB.
    We cannot know with certainty the number of deaths Cheka was responsible for in its various manifestations, but the number is surely at least 20 million, including victims of the forced collectivization, the hunger, large purges, expulsions, banishments, executions, and mass death at Gulags.

    Whole population strata were eliminated: Independent farmers, ethnic minorities, members of the bourgeoisie, senior officers, intellectuals, artists, labor movement activists, “opposition members” who were defined completely randomly, and countless members of the Communist party itself.
    In his new, highly praised book The War of the World, Historian Niall Ferguson writes that no revolution in the history of mankind devoured its children with the same unrestrained appetite as did the Soviet revolution. In his book on the Stalinist purges, Tel Aviv University’s Dr. Igal Halfin writes that Stalinist violence was unique in that it was directed internally.
    Lenin, Stalin, and their successors could not have carried out their deeds without wide-scale cooperation of disciplined ‘terror officials,’ cruel interrogators, snitches, executioners, guards, judges, perverts, and many bleeding hearts who were members of the progressive Western Left and were deceived by the Soviet regime of horror and even provided it with a kosher certificate.[that is u, ‘thirdeye’]

    And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name Genrikh Yagoda, the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU’s deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD.
    “Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin’s collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people.
    “His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the “bloodthirsty dwarf.”
    “Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his book Stalin: Court of the Red Czar, Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist killing machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.
    Stalin’s close associates and loyalists included member of the Central Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him as the “first Stalinist” and adds that those starving to death in Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind, did not move Kaganovich.
    Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We’ll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD’s special department and the organization’s chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.
    In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of ‘our hangmen,’ who served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment. After all, others will always remind us of their origin.

    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

    Certainly part of the reason – there r others – for the flagrant double standarts re alleged NS crimes and Bolshevik crimes is precisely the fact that Jews were disproportionately overepresented among the perpetrators in the latter and were the alleged main victims in the former.

    This in turn presents us with the cute double standarts, where it is ok to rationalize, whitewhash, downplay the much better documented crimes of the Lenin/Stalin regimes while at the same time, anyone who dares question NS crimes, and particularly the alleged holohoax, for which there is no credible evidence, is immediately demonized.
    In many so called ‘free’ Western countries it is a crime to deviate from the fraudulent official holo dossier, punishable by fees and jail time. In other places, you’ll lose your job and have your reputation destroyed.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  220. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

    You’re right, of course, Robin. That’s why I’m suggesting 2020. I think the Lobby will do the heavy lifting for us during the intervening years. Just watch how enthusiastically Killary will implement the final chapters of their “remaking the ME” game plan. The evidence will be so overwhelming that even Avery and annamarina will have to admit the neocons/Israel firsters bear primary responsibility. Ironically, time and The Lobby are on our side.

  221. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    for a smart guy you can be pretty clueless sometimes

    it wasn’t a tactic, I was hoping you’d ‘get’ the sarcasm

    I wrote a rather complex reply to one of your posts and it hasn’t shown up yet

    I’m wondering if it was a little too cogent for the censors here

    I’ll wait and see if they decide to post it..

  222. geokat62 says:
    @Avery

    However, I still do not see why people hold the Israel-firsters in US (Pearl, Wolfowitz,…) as primarily responsible for the war crime of Iraq invasion.

    Chemi Shalev, an Israeli journalist, has posted a long, hostile, and fascinating interview with Stephen Walt, in which Shalev keeps going after Walt’s conclusion that without the neoconservatives, there wouldn’t have been an Iraq war. Here are some excerpts from the piece:

    Walt: “We documented pretty carefully that AIPAC quietly supported going to war, and the [executive director] of AIPAC, Howard Kohr, said as much. That that was one of his major accomplishments in 2002. This is in the period where I think Bush has already made the decision, right? But he’s got to get public support for it, he wants to get congressional approval, and the interesting question is what if all these [Israel lobby] organizations had been completely neutral? Or, God forbid, what if a few of them had opposed the war?”

    There still would have been a war.

    “Not so sure.”

    Not so sure is one thing, writing a book is another.

    “I have to pound this into your head: We do not say the Israel lobby was solely responsible for the Iraq war. We say it would not have happened if the lobby had not existed and had not pushed forth.” (emphasis added)

    That’s very close.

    “No, excuse me. If 9/11 had not happened, I don’t think we would have invaded Iraq. If we’d had more trouble when we went into Afghanistan, if that campaign had gone badly from the beginning or if we’d had the kind of trouble we had later in Afghanistan, I think Iraq would have been put off. Major decisions like this involve a whole series of things coming together….”

    – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2014/04/stephen-publishing-serving#sthash.V1cPHfcL.dpuf

    What has become clear to me is that most Americans have not taken the time to read Mearsheimer & Walt’s The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy. Now, admittedly, the book is very long as they had to provide a rock solid defense of their thesis that the “[Iraq War] would not have happened if the lobby had not existed and had not pushed forth.” So rather than reading the whole book, I recommend that people read the 60-page essay that preceded it.

    http://www.lrb.co.uk/v28/n06/john-mearsheimer/the-israel-lobby

  223. @Svigor

    Do you really think Jews are decentralized ?

  224. Avery says:
    @RobinG

    {3. no more wars for Israel.}

    No more wars of aggression by US. Period.
    No more unconstitutional wars: Congress must declare war, as per Constitution.

    Cut down US military down to a size for defense of US only: that will solve all the problems with wars of aggression.
    Maintain 8K-10K nuke arsenal.
    Get rid of all aircraft carrier groups, except maybe 2: carrier groups are instruments of aggression.
    Close all US bases in foreign lands.
    Bring the troops home.

    No country in the world, including Russia with 8,000-10,000 nukes, is going to attack US.
    Not if they want to commit suicide.

    With means to invade defenseless counties curtailed dramatically, the urge to stick our collective nose in the affairs of others will dissipate over time.
    The warmonger politicians have to be treated the same way as child molesters: shamed, shouted down, and driven off the public stage.

    They all are anti-American scum.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  225. geokat62 says:
    @anonymous

    Thanks for linking to these videos, anonymous. Take a good look at the second video as the Chairman of the Government Reform Committee, Dan Burton (R – Indiana) introduces Bibi Nut’nYahoo as an expert in ME affairs, as if he was the right person to call on to provide an objective assessment on the likelihood that Saddam Hussein was in possssion of weapons of mass destruction. It’s kind of like asking the big bad wolf if he really ate little red riding hood.

    If you’re good at reading minds, you should have little difficulty discerning the following look on his face: “thank G-d for AIPAC. We’re about to realize a massive return on our investment.”

  226. Thirdeye says:
    @L.K

    Aren’t you the same clown who tried to claim that there was no record of intent to exterminate Europe’s Jews from the Wannsee Conference? It was easy to find the smoking gun showing that what you said was a flat out lie. Post #146.

    The propagandists do themselves no favors when they can’t agree on what round number they want to pull out of their asses for excess deaths in the Stalin era. Was it 10 million or 20 million? Of course they have lots of leeway since there were about 18 million excess civilian deaths in the USSR during WWII, in addition to the 8 million military deaths. The bigger the number you can attribute to famine and repression the smaller the number of deaths the Nazis can be held responsible for. Why not just go for 20 million and pretend that the Nazis treated the Russians great? Yeah, that wasn’t the Nazis deliberately starving and freezing Russians and doing massacres, it had to be the NKVD! Never mind that Hitler said at the beginning of the invasion that it would be “a different kind of war” against those Slavic Untermenschen.

    The only estimates of excess deaths in the USSR from 1926-1939 that were developed using methods accepted among demographers range between 3 million and 5 million.

    http://www.campin.me.uk/Politics/purging-stalin.txt

    I just did you a favor. Now you know not to conjure up arguments based on discredited numbers that only make you look like a complete jackass.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  227. annamaria says:

    Not about Syria, but an excellent insight into the US “thinkers” and “journalists” ways of thinking:
    “From Brussels and Washington’s point of view, it is essential that Russia participate in the rehabilitation of Ukraine as a prosperous monument to NATO expansion. Because it frankly cannot be done without it. Russia is understandably unwilling to cooperate under those circumstances, the scenario being what it is. Ukraine will therefore be taken off the board as a transit country, and its entire livelihood is now in peril. The west is trying to rectify its enormous blunder by bullying Russia into continuing to send European gas through Ukraine, and it is not working.”
    https://marknesop.wordpress.com/2016/01/03/the-unbearable-unseemliness-of-partnership/
    The paper shows full monty of Anders Aslund of the Atlantic Council and explains in hilarious terms the self-imposed (strictly business) idiocy of Jim Hoagland of the Washington Post:
    “The [U.S] administration should make clear that it will provide Ukraine with emergency energy supplies if need be. And President Obama, who is making a push to wrap up a new trans-Atlantic trade pact, should use his enhanced working relationship with Merkel to make sure that Germany lives up to its own high standards of behavior and solidarity with allies by abandoning a strategically dangerous pipeline.” Translation: Russia does not want to continue subsidizing Ukraine and this infuriates Mr. Hoagland. Russia wants to have unhindered trade relationships with Germany and this infuriates Mr. Hoagland even more.

  228. annamaria says:

    Israel is upset. Scott explains:
    “Israeli DM Moshe Ya’alon complained that Obama has now yielded the Middle East to Putin…
    Putin’s unexpected intervention in Syria “has created an emergency situation for us”: (1) he is saving Assad, and (2) weakening Daesh, thereby (3) making it impossible to break Syria up as planned; and worst of all (4) he has given Teheran the S-300 system, which will be “operational in a couple of weeks”. Very bad news for Israel’s security, for Ya’alon insists, Iran is much more dangerous for us than Daesh.”
    The Yinon Plan for destroying the Middle Eastern states has become endangered. It is surprising how little is heard about the prominent role of Israel in creating the current humanitarian crisis in the Middle East, which resulted in the waves of refugees to Europe. What we observe in the Middle East and Europe are the consequences of implementations of the Yinon Plan for creating the Greater Israel.
    http://thesaker.is/scotts-rant-january-10th-2016/
    http://www.brookings.edu/about/centers/middle-east-policy/saban-forums
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/greater-israel-the-zionist-plan-for-the-middle-east/5324815

    • Agree: geokat62
  229. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I’m going to try this again…

    First, I felt shame. Because you see I think that a person or group of persons that did atrocious crimes and caused unimaginable suffering to so many people should not dwell on their own suffering.

    In Uschtrim’s view, it is appropriate to dismiss the rape of 2 million German women — from the elderly to little girls.

    words fail.

    notice how the suffering of a girl raped or burned alive in one of the German cities that were subjected to firestorm bombing, is blamed on her “atrocious crimes”. As if the children of Germany were just as guilty as war mongers, and ” should not dwell on their own suffering. ”

    it has been suggested here on this thread that any killings of any Jews during that war were the equivalent of pushing Jewish children into ovens. Because all Jews by virtue of being Jews were(are) innocent, just as all Germans by virtue of being German were(are) all guilty. That is the narrative.

    if a German had managed to kill a man like this

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salomon_Morel

    “Morel became commander of the infamous Zgoda camp in Świętochłowice.[3] The Zgoda camp was set up by the Soviet political police, or NKVD, …

    Sometimes children were sent to the camp along with parents.[7] Prisoners were not accused of any crime,….[7] It is estimated that close to 2,000 inmates died in the camp where torture and abuse of prisoners were chronic and rampant.[5] …”

    more

    “Morel was indicted in 1994 by a Polish court and ordered to face charges of “crimes against humanity.” Among the crimes the Jewish commandant allegedly committed: murders by bashing the heads of babies against stone walls; bludgeoning inmates to death with stools and clubs; inflicting extreme pain by forcing objects up inmates’ anus; forcing women and children to parade around nude in subfreezing temperatures; making inmates eat human feces; and starving people to death.”

    http://www.texemarrs.com/052005/poland_hunts_jewish_commandant.htm

    who lived to old age free and prosperous in Israel on a Polish pension. Probably was considered an honored celebrity and the toast of parties until his death.

    but if a German or Pole were to have managed to kill him = a Holocaust, because killing any Jew, no matter how guilty = killing innocent Jews and pushing them into ovens

    whereas killing (or raping or burning alive) a German, -even a child- no matter how innocent = killing Nazi war criminals

    see what they’ve done to our minds?

    I wrote a similar reply that was not posted, perhaps for fear of “inciting racial hated”

    But if I haven’t spent my whole life watching and listening to propaganda intended to make me want to hate all Germans, to the point of excusing the fiends who firebombed their cities and burned them alive or savagely raped their women and children or marched them into the frozen wastelands to die from their homes in the East by the millions- or so many other unspeakable atrocities that were visited upon them for no other reason than pure, raw race-hate unleashed, then I haven’t grown up in the West. Where this propaganda has been relentless and ruthless my entire life.

    Time for some measured, rational review of all that has happened and is happening, I should think.

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
  230. L.K says:

    TO THIDEYE

    Take it up with holocaust “historians”, such as Yehuda Bauer, who has called the notion silly.
    Yehuda Bauer, professor at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, stated at an international conference on the genocide of the Jews held in London: “The public still repeats, time after time, the silly story that at Wannsee the extermination of the Jews was arrived at” (Jewish Telegraphic Agency release published as “Wannsee’s importance rejected”, Canadian Jewish News, January 30, 1992, p. 8).

    Leftist quack & holo historian Jäckel, interviewed in 1992 by the Frankfurter Allgemeine, ‘the protocol of the conference, said Jäckel, contains not a word about such a decision[to exterminate the jews]. Also, the participants had not been authorized at all to do so.

    Or Deborah Dwork(co-writes books with mega quack and Auschwitz “expert”, Van Pelt):
    Himmler needed slave laborers for his stone quarries, brickyards, factories, agricultural projects, and land reclamation works. Once Gøring scotched the idea of Soviet POWs for these purposes, Himmler’s eye fell on the Jews. Many people believe that the Final Solution was decided at the Wannsee Conference, but this is not the case. It was a conference about power. This short meeting of under ninety minutes attended by upper-level (but not top-level) bureaucrats was chaired by Heydrich, and his goal was to assert Himmler’s authority.”
    Deborah Dwork. Voices and Views. Pg. 353
    Published by Jewish Foundation for the Righteous, 2002.

    Pressac says about the same… and so on and so forth…yawnnnn

    The protocol discusses several things, chief among them, that deportation of the jews would replace the previous imigration policy.
    In this connection, it speaks of putting the jews to work in road construction in the east, a process which would reduce their numbers due to harsh conditions.
    Nothing about sending them to ‘extermination camps’, gas chambers, etc.
    Not a word either about whether, when and how this extermination was to come about.

    Interestingly, officials who took part in the meeting and who were taken after the war to the Allied cangaroo courts stated that nothing had been said about extermination through labor or any other means.
    The content of the alleged protocol was wrong bc a lot of what had been discussed was MISSING while things which had not, appeared as topics of the meeting.
    More on this in a minute.
    At any rate, there are MANY other documents following the timeline which totally contradict the idiotic idea that at Wannsee an extermination of the jews was decided upon.
    For lack of time, i’ll mention only one, the Schlegelberger Memorandum”, which makes it clear that, whatever was discussed at Wannsee concerning the “Final Solution of the Jewish Question”, Hitler had decided to postpone the matter until the end of the war by the Spring of 1942.

    Provenance, Chain of custody and authenticity of documents:

    Now, people who are not biased imbeciles, such as thirdeye, can understand the importance of these issues. The Allies captured tons of German documents and had all means available for forgery at their disposal after the war;
    A lot of documents, original letterhead stationary, specific typewriters, rubber stamps, signatures, etc.

    It’s all the more disgusting therefore, to see how quack historians are so ‘credulous’ in their approach to supposed incriminating documents.
    They rarely do what they should, which is document criticism.
    It should be noted that even these supposed incriminating german documents are very few and unreliable.

    So, back to the Wannsee protocol; in this case however, several msm historians have expressed doubt as to the authenticity of said protocol.
    In 1987, the Research Office for Contemporary History in Ingolstadt, Germany, produced a detailed report in which much doubt was expressed re the authenticity of the Protocol. Historians Ernst Nolte and Werner Maser also expressed doubts.

    Several revisionist researchers have reached the same conclusion, particularly the detailed report by Roland Bohlinger & Johannes Peter Ney, in which they concluded the protocol is a forgery.

    Who found the protocol??
    The source of this Wannsee Protocol is none other than Nuremberg prosecutor, the German Jew / Zionist, Robert Max Kempner.
    Kempner had been a successful Jewish lawyer in Germany until forced to imigrate after the rise of the NS in Germany.

    Wiki on Kempner:

    After finishing his studies Kempner became a successful Jewish lawyer in Berlin during the 1920s, and then advanced to chief legal advisor to the Prussian police in 1928. In 1935 Wilhelm Frick revoked Kempner’s German citizenship, forcing him to emigrate to Italy and then later to the United States.[2]
    After World War II Kempner returned to Germany, the land of his birth, to serve as assistant U.S. chief counsel during theInternational Military Tribunal at Nuremberg. In a reversal of fortune, Kempner would prosecute two of his former superiors and persecutors — Göring and Frick. More familiar with the German legal system than any other member of the Allied staff, Kempner headed the Defense Rebuttal Section, the team responsible for anticipating the defense strategies of the accused and for preparing cross-examinations.[3]
    Kempner also presented the case against his old nemesis Wilhelm Frick. This irony was not lost on the American press. One headline read, “Man He Exiled Presents Case Against Frick.” Kempner also served as counsel at the 1947-1948 trial of the German Foreign Office and is credited with finding the text of the Wannsee Protocol, a critical historical document in the history of the Holocaust. After Nuremberg, Kempner split his time between the United States and Germany where he represented Jewish clients in restitution cases against Germany. He also appeared as an expert witness at the trial of Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem in 1961
    .[3]

    Some less than bright folks may respond with: why would anybody make a forgery which is not even that incriminating? Why not make something about gas chambers and extermination camps?
    Because the best way to make a good forgery, one that has a chance of being convincing, is for the forgers to work from existing, real documents. If the forgers just make too much up, even context may give it alway. This is the reason there is almost nothing re gas chambers but there are these strange Einsatzgruppen reports.
    The Einsatzgruppen did shoot people and did send reports to Berlin. Also, shooting people is nothing extraordinary while systematically gassing millions in chemical slaughterhouses is unheard of. In the case of the Einsatzgruppen, all that had to be done was to find a set of original copies and increase figures of those shot or insert a few lines, paragraphs.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  231. L.K says:

    Also, for the record;

    The NS did NOT exterminate homosexuals, gypsies or slavs.

    Even the cowardly German historians admit about 50,000 dead gypsies under the 3rd Reich.

    Homosexuality was a criminal offence in NS Germany, just as it was in a lot of countries at the time. For ex, Britain and the Soviet Union.
    Some 10-15,000 homosexuals were sent to concentration camps. Mostly they were repeat offenders, prostitutes, pedophiles. Some died, some survived.

  232. […] in 2016 the same approach is likely to prove its inefficiency. 10. The Unz Review: The Saker, Week Thirteen of the Russian Intervention in Syria: Debunking the Lies. 11. The National Interest: Thomas Fedyszyn, What Russia Said About NATO and Why It Matters. 12. The […]

  233. Thirdeye says:
    @Thirdeye

    Post #194, not Post #146.

  234. Thirdeye says:
    @L.K

    Of course the decision to exterminate Europe’s Jews wasn’t arrived at during the Wannsee conference. The attendees lacked the authority to set make that decision. The authority to make that decision rested with Hitler and Himmler. The objective was taken as a given. The meeting was about developing co-ordination and operational plans. Your argument is as weaselly as any I’ve encountered among Zionists, and that’s saying a lot. It didn’t work, chump.

    The policy of exterminating Jews was manifest during 1941. It was desired to make it more efficient.

    I was waiting for you to point out that two elements of the extermination program outlined in the Wannsee protocol, massive roving Jewish work gangs and “old age ghettos,” didn’t happen on any significant scale. Go for it. I dare you.

    Context for the Wannsee protocol is discussed here.

    The Nazis wanted to keep some Slavs around as slave labor in the east.

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