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US Options in the Ukraine: Trigger a Religious War?
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Listening to the imperial media one might be excused for thinking that nothing dramatic is happening in the Ukraine and that the crisis has basically leveled off in some way. Well, why not? They just had recent elections and, apparently, that went well, Russia is still showing her usual bad will and threatening behavior towards Europe, but at least Putin was forced to release the Ukrainian Jeanne d’Arc (aka Nadezhda Savchenko), and there is hope that the united front of the EU and NATO will eventually force Putin to stop his aggression against the Ukraine and to comply with the Minsk Agreements. Oh, and the Ukrainian National Bank has announced, I kid you not, a return to growth (by 0.1%) for the first quarter of the year.

Alas, the disconnect between this kind of nonsense and reality is total. Yes, elections did take place, but they were anything but free, the neo-Nazis are now more influential than ever and the fact that Putin did agree to exchange Savchenko for 2 Russian citizens accused of being, I kid you not, GRU Spetsnaz operators, was just a slick way for him to stop Savchenko from being his problem while making her Poroshenko’s (and even Timoshenko’s). As for the Minsk Agreements, Russia is not party to them at all, she just is a guarantor along with Germany and France. But yes, Poroshenko is still in power, people are still finding goods in stores and no new “Maidan” has taken place. So, externally, things are not too bad.

The problem with that rosy image is that nobody at Langley really believes it.

The folks at Langley know that the Ukrainian economy is basically dead and coasting to its inevitable breakdown on inertia. They know that the government services are barely kept alive by western aid and that even that is not enough to maintain the authority of the central government which is gradually becoming irrelevant and replaced by local ‘authorities’ (oligarchs and mobsters). Even more importantly, they now have lost any hope of drawing Russia into this conflict and they are seeing clear signs that the “European front” is cracking: France, Italy and others are already showing signs of discontent with the current situation, as has Germany (all these countries have their own “Langleys” who are making exactly the same dire predictions). So the big question for the USA is what to do next?

The initial plan was to make the Ukraine a sort of “black hole” which would suck in all the economic, political, and military resources of Russia, ideally by having Russia occupying the Donbass. But now that the Russians have declined to get sucked in, it is Europe which is now threatened with the Ukrainian black hole.

The Americans probably realize by now that it is too late to put Humpty Dumpty together again and they are right. While, in theory, a join effort of the USA, EU and Russia could, at a huge cost, try to rebuild the Ukraine, political realities make such a joint action impossible, at least for the foreseeable future. They also realize that, courtesy of Mrs Nuland’s candid words, the blame for the disastrous outcome in the Ukraine will be put on the USA (which is not quite fair, the Europeans are also guilty as hell, but such is life). And if “losing Syria” was bad enough, then “losing the Ukraine” will do irreparable damage to the USA simply by debunking the myth of the USA’s omnipotence. This is very serious, especially for an Empire which has basically given up on negotiations or diplomacy and which now only delivers ultimatums.

So what are the US options here?

It is hard to predict at this time what the US might try to do. The normal US practice in such a situation is to simply declare victory and leave. That would work in Africa or Asia, but smack in the middle of the European continent that is hardly an option as it would result in a PR disaster.

The second option could be to basically blame the Ukrainians themselves for everything and try to protect Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova from the inevitable consequences of the spreading chaos. The risk here, at least from the US point of view, is that Russia and her Novorussian allies would be more or less free to move in the created vacuum and that is something the USA absolutely cannot accept. The Americans would have visions of Zakharchenko in Kiev or pro-Russian riots in Odessa and that is simply beyond unacceptable.

Which leaves option three: to deliberately blow up the Ukraine.

Rostislav Ishchenko, in my opinion the best specialist of the Ukraine on the planet, has recently began warning that such a mechanism is already in place: to turn the civil war into a religious war pitting not Latins (“Roman Catholics”) against the Orthodox, but various Orthodox group against each other. Let me explain.

Like everything else in the Ukraine, the history of the various Orthodox jurisdictions in the Ukraine is very complex and goes far back for centuries. I cannot go into a detailed discussion of this very interesting topic here, but I want to offer some key pointers.

There are three main groups which all call themselves the “true” or “canonical” Ukrainian Orthodox Church: the biggest one is the Autonomous Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate, followed by the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyivan Patriarchate and, finally, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church. Of course, all three of these churches claim to be the true representative of the legitimate Ukrainian Orthodoxy.

[Full disclosure: I personally don't consider any of them to be legitimate or truly Orthodox so I don't have a personal stake in this one].

They are:

ORDER IT NOW

The AUOC-MP is the biggest of the three. It is self-governing, but not fully independent. It is probably the biggest of the three churches and it is in full communion with all of the other “official” (read: “state approved”) Orthodox Churches out there. The AUOC-MP is viewed as the “hand of the Kremlin” by the nationalists.

The UOC-KP was founded by a former Bishop of the Moscow Patriarchate, Filaret Denisenko who created a “schism” (a unilateral separation in contradiction to the Canons of the Church) from the Moscow Patriarchate (which is ironic since Filaret was a former “deputy” (locum tenens) to Patriarch Pimen I of the Moscow Patriarchate and even considered a front-runner to succeed him). Even by Soviet standards Filaret was always known to be an exceptionally immoral, corrupt and unprincipled man, but the Moscow Patriarchate only excommunicated him when he broke-off from the MP to create his own “church”.

The UAOC is basically a 1921 creation of the Ukrainian National Republic of 1917 (just as the Moscow Patriarchate is a 1937 creation of the Bolshevik state of 1917) and it represents the “non-Soviet” version of Ukrainian Christianity, with several of its clergymen have been persecuted by the Soviet state.

What makes this situation truly unique are two factors:

  • Historically, the territory which is today known as the Ukraine has mostly been part of the Patriarchate of Constantinople between the 10th and 17th century (this is a gross simplification, but basically correct).
  • The modern Patriarchate of Constantinople is in a desperate quest for relevance (by itself it is tiny and subject to the Turkish authorities) and has extremely bad relations with Moscow

There is, therefore, at very real risk that the authorities in Kiev will decide to declare the AUOC-MP as an “aggressor country Church” and that they will order all the parishes, monasteries and other building currently owned by the clergy of the AUOC-MP to be forcibly transferred to either the UOC-KP and/or the UAOC. There is also a possibility that the Patriarch of Constantinople might decide to “heed the cries of the faithful” and recognize either the UOC-KP and/or the UAOC as an autonomous part of the Constantinople Patriarchate thus basically taking the entire Ukraine under his control. And even if the authorities in Kiev don’t formally declare the AUOC-MP as a fair game for pogroms and illegal expropriations, they can just look away and let the neo-Nazi death-squads (like the infamous “Aidar”) do the dirty job for them.

How big is this risk?

I would assess it as high. To create civil disturbances is the ideal way for the regime in Kiev to blame the “hand of Moscow” for all the problems. The spineless Europeans would have to follow the (US) party line and blame Putin for “stirring up the Russian-speakers” in the Ukraine and “using the pro-Moscow Russian minority initiate a new phase in the hybrid war against the sovereign Ukraine”. Such a confrontation would also allow the oligarch controlled political factions to unite with the real neo-Nazis who are currently in a “moderate opposition” mode. For the oligarchs, this would be the perfect opportunity to murder their neo-Nazi opposition (Savchenko for example) and blame it on “Moscow’s agents”. Last but not least, the eruption of intra-Orthodox clashes would be the perfect pretext to further unleash the SBU (Ukie KGB) against any opposition party.

Just as in the war against the Donbass, Putin would be put under tremendous pressure inside Russia to “do something about this” and some will not shy away form demanding that Russian tanks be sent to Kiev. Of course, Putin would never agree to such a folly, but that refusal would most definitely hurt him in the Russian public opinion, yet another good result from such an intra-Orthodox conflict in the Ukraine.

For the time being, the Empire is limiting its anti-Russian informational war to petty actions like the banning of Russian athletes from the Olympics in Brazil, focusing solely on Russian hooligans in France and giving the Eurovision to a political singer against all Eurovision rules. These are annoying for sure, but they are very limited in their effects: yes, it makes Russia look like the “uncivilized bad guy” in the eyes of the TV-watching idiots in the West, but a lot of people are not buying into this and see straight through it all, and it just serves to consolidate the support of the Russian people for Vladimir Putin. At the end of the day, turning Western public opinion against Putin is useless. What the Empire would really want is to turn the Russian public opinion against Putin – that is The Prize, at least for the folks in Langley.

So what better way would there be to set the Ukraine (further) ablaze while giving the Russian people the impression that “Putin has betrayed the Orthodox people”, than to trigger a religious war ?

We all know the famous words of a US officer in Viet-Nam “It became necessary to destroy the town to save it”. There is now a real risk that the US might decide to destroy the Ukraine in order to “save it”, especially if the Neocons re-take full control of the Executive under Hillary.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. Beckow says:

    Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

    What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That’s why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation – it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

    The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU – and endless delays are also a denial – the end could be very quick. The last “revolution” attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

    Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous – once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

    By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world – from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

    Read More
    • Agree: Jim Christian
    • Replies: @Rich
    Better Ukrainians than Muslims. The Ukrainians are a European people with the same cultural origins as the rest of Europe. They would be a net plus to Europe, or even America.
    , @5371
    There were never actually crowds of hundreds of thousands until the revolution of indignity had triumphed and the morons could come out in safety.
    , @Baldur Dasche
    Highly unlikely the EU is going to want to be flooded by Ukrainians even if they are 'aspirational' and 'dreamy'. They're also needy and unemployed and speak an odd language - having the same qualifications as the millions clamoring to sneak into EU illegally and otherwise.

    Besides their classic 'good looks', Ukrainians seem to bear a national streak of self-destructive behavior, larceny and mindless violence. Some things Europe already has in spades.

    , @Boris N
    I heard that many times, that the one of the main driven forces of Maidan was a desire for visa-free access into the EU. But if it is true, then the alleged love for Ukraine by millions of pro-Maidan Ukrainians is absolutely fake. The Ukrainian nationalists, "patriots" and so called "activists" then in fact absolutely hate their country. They did not want a brighter future for the country but only wanted to run off out of it. This fact is really paradoxical, if not hilarious. I'd even say this is something truly mentally Ukrainian. Raise a revolution, destroy and ruin your own country just for a chance to sneak out. I hardly know any other nation which hates its country so much.

    But what is even more appalling, that the visa-free access was even not on the agenda. The association treaty says nothing about visa-free access. Absolutely nothing. And even if the Ukies get the access some time in the future, it would never mean what they wanted. It will be just an opportunity to travel as a tourist 90 days a year, nothing more. You cannot freely work, you cannot freely study, you cannot simply live in the EU indefinitely. The stupid Ukies have been just tricked by themselves!
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  2. Rich says:
    @Beckow
    Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

    What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That's why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation - it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

    The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU - and endless delays are also a denial - the end could be very quick. The last "revolution" attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

    Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous - once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

    By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world - from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

    Better Ukrainians than Muslims. The Ukrainians are a European people with the same cultural origins as the rest of Europe. They would be a net plus to Europe, or even America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow
    Well maybe, but the Muslims are coming anyway, this will have no impact on them. Can EU handle both?

    Ukrainians have been held back - except in Poland - and if the visa-free access is given, millions will move - Ukraine has 40 million people, plus another 3-5 million Ukrainians currently working in Russia might decide to try it. There is a panic in Brussels - but the bosses in Washington want it done. Thus the delays and promises.

    Maidan wouldn't happen without the visa-yearners. Now they have to be paid or the whole hell will break lose. Can EU afford it?

    , @KA
    Apparently British did not buy the cultural similarities or religious affiliations.They don't want to have anything to do with Poles,Lithuanian, Greek or Romanian . Will they suck up to the entreaties of the Russified Kievan orthodox church goers ? Dont' think so.
    Eastern Europe is distraught that they have not been accepted s equal by Anglo Saxon or by Anglo American tribe despite doing everything for the empire . It is entirely logical now they would try anything including :'take me I am not muslim "
    Ukraine shall try Australia - it's a big country until the "swarthy white men" replace the "swarthy brown man " from the lists to be monitored and hated . Didn't east European bring with them the fear of the socialism and communism to American east coast in early 20th ? What would they this time? They would try to get into competition with Oriental and Asian . Rest will remain inaccessible.
    It will be a different type of social unrest and nobody in London or Washington wants it .
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  3. I was walking across a bridge one sunny day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: ‘Stop. Don’t do it.’

    ‘Why shouldn’t I?’ he asked.

    ‘Well, there’s so much to live for!’

    ‘Like what?’

    ‘Are you religious?’

    He said: ‘Yes.’

    I said. ‘Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?’

    ‘Christian.’

    ‘Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?”

    ‘Protestant.’

    ‘Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?’

    ‘Baptist.’

    ‘Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?’

    ‘Baptist Church of God.’

    ‘Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?’

    ‘Reformed Baptist Church of God.’

    ‘Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?’

    He said: ‘Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.’

    I said: “Die, heretic scum,” and pushed him off.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What a pity we don't have time for long jokes these days. How well that would have held an audience round a big winter fire in now distant days before smartphones and TV comedy. Even at the Crazy Horse saloon circa 1960..
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  4. Rehmat says:

    It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine while the ruling Jewish minority watching. Isn’t what is happening in the Middle East for decades thanks to US Congress’ blind support for the Zionist regimes for decades?

    However, it would not be the first time Christians killed fellow Christians to serve the interests of the World Zionist Congress. They did it in WWI and WWII in the past during which more than 100 million people, mostly Christians, were slaughtered for no reasons.

    It’s very important for the US to maintain its iron grip over Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova because according to ADL “survey” antisemitism is on the rise in those countries.

    The tension between Germany and Hungary has flared over Hungary’s constitution changes which Jewish groups claim would cause further increase antisemitism within Europe. Both Germany and the European Union have condemned Hungary’s constitutional changes.

    On May 16, 2013, German Chancellor Angela Markel in her speech at the 16th International WDR Europeforum in Berlin, issued a veiled threat to Hungarian government by invoking Adolph Hitler’s occupation of Hungary in 1944.

    “We will do anything to get Hungary onto the right path – but not sending the cavalry right away,” said Markel.

    Hungary’s Israel-Firster prime minister Viktor Orban responded to Merkel’s “cavalry” comment, saying: “The Germans have already sent cavalry to Hungary – they came in form of tanks. Our request is that they don’t send any. It didn’t work out,” Orban told state broadcaster Kossuth Radio on Friday.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/05/21/markel-threatens-hungary-over-antisemitism/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow
    Hungary had its own cavalry in WWII before Nazis invaded in 1944. Hungarians were quite visible as the third largest component of Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941. Merkel's "cavalry" comment might be in bad taste, but Orban should know better - he knows Hungary's history. Hitler occupied a wavering ally, and had plenty of local support (similar to Mussolini in 1943).

    Regarding Orthodox Christians fighting each other as the Jewish elite watches, one can say the same thing about the Uniate Catholic Church and Western Christianity in general: they have an obsessive dislike for Orthodox and cherish any fights among them. In Ukraine too many outsiders see Ukrainians as objects to be used and played with, the disdain for them is obvious. This is where Ukrainians misread the West - they are a convenient tool against Russia, but not much else. Deep down Western elites see Ukrainians the same way as they see Russians - a designated evil among white people (we need one, don't we?).
    , @Joe Wong
    "It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine," haven't the Ukrainian Christians been killing Ukrainian Christians since Maidan Square mob putsch?
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  5. Beckow says:
    @Rich
    Better Ukrainians than Muslims. The Ukrainians are a European people with the same cultural origins as the rest of Europe. They would be a net plus to Europe, or even America.

    Well maybe, but the Muslims are coming anyway, this will have no impact on them. Can EU handle both?

    Ukrainians have been held back – except in Poland – and if the visa-free access is given, millions will move – Ukraine has 40 million people, plus another 3-5 million Ukrainians currently working in Russia might decide to try it. There is a panic in Brussels – but the bosses in Washington want it done. Thus the delays and promises.

    Maidan wouldn’t happen without the visa-yearners. Now they have to be paid or the whole hell will break lose. Can EU afford it?

    Read More
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  6. Beckow says:
    @Rehmat
    It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine while the ruling Jewish minority watching. Isn't what is happening in the Middle East for decades thanks to US Congress' blind support for the Zionist regimes for decades?

    However, it would not be the first time Christians killed fellow Christians to serve the interests of the World Zionist Congress. They did it in WWI and WWII in the past during which more than 100 million people, mostly Christians, were slaughtered for no reasons.

    It's very important for the US to maintain its iron grip over Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova because according to ADL "survey" antisemitism is on the rise in those countries.

    The tension between Germany and Hungary has flared over Hungary’s constitution changes which Jewish groups claim would cause further increase antisemitism within Europe. Both Germany and the European Union have condemned Hungary’s constitutional changes.

    On May 16, 2013, German Chancellor Angela Markel in her speech at the 16th International WDR Europeforum in Berlin, issued a veiled threat to Hungarian government by invoking Adolph Hitler’s occupation of Hungary in 1944.

    “We will do anything to get Hungary onto the right path – but not sending the cavalry right away,” said Markel.

    Hungary’s Israel-Firster prime minister Viktor Orban responded to Merkel’s “cavalry” comment, saying: “The Germans have already sent cavalry to Hungary – they came in form of tanks. Our request is that they don’t send any. It didn’t work out,” Orban told state broadcaster Kossuth Radio on Friday.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/05/21/markel-threatens-hungary-over-antisemitism/

    Hungary had its own cavalry in WWII before Nazis invaded in 1944. Hungarians were quite visible as the third largest component of Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941. Merkel’s “cavalry” comment might be in bad taste, but Orban should know better – he knows Hungary’s history. Hitler occupied a wavering ally, and had plenty of local support (similar to Mussolini in 1943).

    Regarding Orthodox Christians fighting each other as the Jewish elite watches, one can say the same thing about the Uniate Catholic Church and Western Christianity in general: they have an obsessive dislike for Orthodox and cherish any fights among them. In Ukraine too many outsiders see Ukrainians as objects to be used and played with, the disdain for them is obvious. This is where Ukrainians misread the West – they are a convenient tool against Russia, but not much else. Deep down Western elites see Ukrainians the same way as they see Russians – a designated evil among white people (we need one, don’t we?).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    How come you didn't mention MUSLIMS involved in your whining, moron?

    Both Ukraine and Russia are controlled by the Organized Jewry, and their main victims are their Muslim minorities.

    The Muslim nationalities of Eastern Europe have been victims of numerous ethnic cleansing campaigns since the late 18th century. Among those nationalities expelled en masse during the 19th century from their homelands were the Bulgarian Muslims, Circassians, and Abkhazians. The Imperial Russian government was involved in all these mass expulsions.

    Under Jewish-controlled Soviet government, the genocide of Muslim reached to its peak. Crimean Tatars suffered from Joseph Stalin’s economic and political policies. Crimean Tatars had their first Nakba began in 1929-1931 when thousands of Crimean Tatars were deported to Northern Russia and the Urals. The forced collectivization of agriculture in the Crimea devastated the vineyards, orchards, and farms of the Crimean Tatars. This devastation contributed greatly to the 1932-1933 famine in the region. As the 1930s progressed Stalin began to curtail the cultural autonomy of the Crimean Tatars and persecute their intelligentsia. During 1937 and 1938, the Stalin’s Jewish dominated regime, executed a large number of Crimean Tatar intellectuals.

    Contrary to Stalin’s oppressive policy toward Muslim Tatars, he established first Jewish state of Birobidjan in Soviet Russia.

    The Nakba of the Crimean Muslim Tatars began in 1944, when the Red Army drove the Germans out of the lush and beautiful Crimean peninsula. After establishing control, the Russians began to load the natives onto trains and deport them to Central Asia. They accused the Tatars of collaborating with the Nazi enemy, though among them there were many brave and distinguished soldiers who had fought on the Russian side against the Nazis. The Soviets dealt with them as arbitrarily as did the Americans with their own native tribes: some two hundred thousand people, 15 or 20 per cent of the total Crimean population, were declared ‘hostile traitors’ and shipped away.....

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/20/crimea-and-palestine-muslim-genocide-by-jews/
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  7. Rehmat says:
    @Beckow
    Hungary had its own cavalry in WWII before Nazis invaded in 1944. Hungarians were quite visible as the third largest component of Nazi invasion of Russia in 1941. Merkel's "cavalry" comment might be in bad taste, but Orban should know better - he knows Hungary's history. Hitler occupied a wavering ally, and had plenty of local support (similar to Mussolini in 1943).

    Regarding Orthodox Christians fighting each other as the Jewish elite watches, one can say the same thing about the Uniate Catholic Church and Western Christianity in general: they have an obsessive dislike for Orthodox and cherish any fights among them. In Ukraine too many outsiders see Ukrainians as objects to be used and played with, the disdain for them is obvious. This is where Ukrainians misread the West - they are a convenient tool against Russia, but not much else. Deep down Western elites see Ukrainians the same way as they see Russians - a designated evil among white people (we need one, don't we?).

    How come you didn’t mention MUSLIMS involved in your whining, moron?

    Both Ukraine and Russia are controlled by the Organized Jewry, and their main victims are their Muslim minorities.

    The Muslim nationalities of Eastern Europe have been victims of numerous ethnic cleansing campaigns since the late 18th century. Among those nationalities expelled en masse during the 19th century from their homelands were the Bulgarian Muslims, Circassians, and Abkhazians. The Imperial Russian government was involved in all these mass expulsions.

    Under Jewish-controlled Soviet government, the genocide of Muslim reached to its peak. Crimean Tatars suffered from Joseph Stalin’s economic and political policies. Crimean Tatars had their first Nakba began in 1929-1931 when thousands of Crimean Tatars were deported to Northern Russia and the Urals. The forced collectivization of agriculture in the Crimea devastated the vineyards, orchards, and farms of the Crimean Tatars. This devastation contributed greatly to the 1932-1933 famine in the region. As the 1930s progressed Stalin began to curtail the cultural autonomy of the Crimean Tatars and persecute their intelligentsia. During 1937 and 1938, the Stalin’s Jewish dominated regime, executed a large number of Crimean Tatar intellectuals.

    Contrary to Stalin’s oppressive policy toward Muslim Tatars, he established first Jewish state of Birobidjan in Soviet Russia.

    The Nakba of the Crimean Muslim Tatars began in 1944, when the Red Army drove the Germans out of the lush and beautiful Crimean peninsula. After establishing control, the Russians began to load the natives onto trains and deport them to Central Asia. They accused the Tatars of collaborating with the Nazi enemy, though among them there were many brave and distinguished soldiers who had fought on the Russian side against the Nazis. The Soviets dealt with them as arbitrarily as did the Americans with their own native tribes: some two hundred thousand people, 15 or 20 per cent of the total Crimean population, were declared ‘hostile traitors’ and shipped away…..

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/20/crimea-and-palestine-muslim-genocide-by-jews/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beckow
    Crimean Tatars had a slaver state in Crimea for a few hundred years until Russian army finally put an end to it in late 18th century. Moslems in Bulgaria, Bosnia, Albania and Caucasus committed genocide against Christian peasants and side with imperial Turkey. Then in WWII all of the above groups to some extent joined Nazis in murderous attack on the east. Ukrainians were by far the biggest victims of both Tatar slave raiders, Ottomans and then Nazi Germans and their allies. It is really weird today that they sing praises to their own slave owners. But lack of self esteem often has strange results.

    You can talk about perceived "oppression" all you want, the history speaks for itself - it was the Muslem invading groups and Muslem slave raiders who committed most crimes in Eastern Europe. Until you address your own history and its crimes, don't expect others to take your whinging seriously.
    , @Seraphim
    Perhaps one of the most amusing things would be the comedy of Muslims trying to emulate the Jews at playing the 'innocent victim' card, if not for their rather 'tough' approach to redress the slight to their 'honor', i.e. their demotion from the position of masters of the 'Giaour'.
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  8. 5371 says:
    @Beckow
    Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

    What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That's why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation - it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

    The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU - and endless delays are also a denial - the end could be very quick. The last "revolution" attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

    Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous - once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

    By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world - from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

    There were never actually crowds of hundreds of thousands until the revolution of indignity had triumphed and the morons could come out in safety.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen


    There were hundreds of thousands the weekend after the Berkut killed the the firest demonstrators (if you recall, dragging one out of hospital and beating him to death on the street monitored by CCTV). Then they went away and the agents provocateurs showed up.
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  9. Beckow says:
    @Rehmat
    How come you didn't mention MUSLIMS involved in your whining, moron?

    Both Ukraine and Russia are controlled by the Organized Jewry, and their main victims are their Muslim minorities.

    The Muslim nationalities of Eastern Europe have been victims of numerous ethnic cleansing campaigns since the late 18th century. Among those nationalities expelled en masse during the 19th century from their homelands were the Bulgarian Muslims, Circassians, and Abkhazians. The Imperial Russian government was involved in all these mass expulsions.

    Under Jewish-controlled Soviet government, the genocide of Muslim reached to its peak. Crimean Tatars suffered from Joseph Stalin’s economic and political policies. Crimean Tatars had their first Nakba began in 1929-1931 when thousands of Crimean Tatars were deported to Northern Russia and the Urals. The forced collectivization of agriculture in the Crimea devastated the vineyards, orchards, and farms of the Crimean Tatars. This devastation contributed greatly to the 1932-1933 famine in the region. As the 1930s progressed Stalin began to curtail the cultural autonomy of the Crimean Tatars and persecute their intelligentsia. During 1937 and 1938, the Stalin’s Jewish dominated regime, executed a large number of Crimean Tatar intellectuals.

    Contrary to Stalin’s oppressive policy toward Muslim Tatars, he established first Jewish state of Birobidjan in Soviet Russia.

    The Nakba of the Crimean Muslim Tatars began in 1944, when the Red Army drove the Germans out of the lush and beautiful Crimean peninsula. After establishing control, the Russians began to load the natives onto trains and deport them to Central Asia. They accused the Tatars of collaborating with the Nazi enemy, though among them there were many brave and distinguished soldiers who had fought on the Russian side against the Nazis. The Soviets dealt with them as arbitrarily as did the Americans with their own native tribes: some two hundred thousand people, 15 or 20 per cent of the total Crimean population, were declared ‘hostile traitors’ and shipped away.....

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/20/crimea-and-palestine-muslim-genocide-by-jews/

    Crimean Tatars had a slaver state in Crimea for a few hundred years until Russian army finally put an end to it in late 18th century. Moslems in Bulgaria, Bosnia, Albania and Caucasus committed genocide against Christian peasants and side with imperial Turkey. Then in WWII all of the above groups to some extent joined Nazis in murderous attack on the east. Ukrainians were by far the biggest victims of both Tatar slave raiders, Ottomans and then Nazi Germans and their allies. It is really weird today that they sing praises to their own slave owners. But lack of self esteem often has strange results.

    You can talk about perceived “oppression” all you want, the history speaks for itself – it was the Muslem invading groups and Muslem slave raiders who committed most crimes in Eastern Europe. Until you address your own history and its crimes, don’t expect others to take your whinging seriously.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Can you tell us "Jewish historian" why Harvard historian professor Niall Ferguson in his highly praised 2006 book, "The War of the World" missed all those Muslim genocides?

    Instead he claimed that some of the greatest mass murderers of modern times were Jewish. Ferguson’s research, however, centered on the Bolshevik revolution and the Lenin and Stalin era during which Jewish elites in the Russian government and Bolshevik terrorist organs like Cheka, GPU, NKVD and KGB, sent over 100 million Christian and Muslim communities to death camps or rooted out of their native homelands.

    Some other books on this subject include ‘Behind Communism’ by Frank Britton, ‘Stalin’s willing Executioners’ by Yuri Slezkine, ‘The Rulers of Russia’ by Rev. Denis Fahey, and ‘The Secret Behind Communism’, by David Duke Ph.D.

    My sincere advice - stop reading Muslim history narrative by that Zionist Jewish filth Daniel Pipes.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/02/11/worlds-most-mass-murderers-were-jewish/
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  10. tbraton says:

    OT but on a related topic, Israel has taken the mask off and made clear that it wants ISIS in power in Syria, “Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated in Syria”:

    ” In a speech at the Herzliya Conference, Israel’s military intelligence chief, Major General Herzi Halevy, took Israel’s long-standing position that it “prefers ISIS” over the Syrian government to a whole ‘nother level, declaring openly that Israel does not want to see ISIS defeated in the war.

    Quoted in the Hebrew-language NRG site, linked to Maariv, Maj. Gen. Halevy expressed concern about the recent offensives against ISIS territory, saying that in the last three months the Islamist group was facing the “most difficult” situation since its inception and declaration of a caliphate.

    Israeli officials have regularly expressed comfort with the idea of ISIS conquering the whole of Syria, saying they find it preferable to the Iran-allied government surviving the war. At the same time, they were never so overtly supportive of ISIS and its survival.

    Halevy went on to express concern that the defeat of ISIS might mean the “superpowers” leaving Syria, saying this would put Israel “in a hard position” after being so opposed to the survival of the Syrian government.

    He then said Israel will do “all we can so as to not find ourselves in such a situation,” suggesting that the Israeli military is looking at direct support for ISIS as a matter of policy, and not just rhetoric.”

    http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/21/israeli-intel-chief-we-dont-want-isis-defeated-in-syria/

    I thought ISIS was supposed to be the great enemy of the U.S. I guess this opens up Israel to bombing attacks from the U.S.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    One point of interest that I find in this is the Israeli obsession with Iran. Why?
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  11. I realize that the “Holodomor” or “man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed an estimated 2.5–7.5 million Ukrainians” (according to the unimpeachable Wikipedia) isn’t part of this story.

    But it is only a matter of time before this propaganda schtick starts to crank up again, in the context of Russian crimes against Ukraine.

    Interesting though how the Dust Bowl and US famine (and population decline) in the same decade goes swooshing down the memory hole.

    Anyone who’s ever watched the great 1976 film “Bound for Glory” or read Steinbeck’s “Grapes of Wrath” (I wonder if this book is still part of the so-called education curriculum these days) will realize that the decade of the 1930s was no picnic in the promised land either.

    Numbers don’t lie (and even Wikipedia can’t make them up) so just go to US demographics and look at the decade by decade population growth column:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

    For the first time since the very first US census in 1790 (140 years) the US decade by decade population growth nosedives to single digits, 7.3 percent, from 1930 to 1940. Previous decade was 16.2 percent, and 1940 to ’50 was 14.5 percent.

    The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the ’30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?)

    Even the civil war decade only saw a modest drop in the growth rate, although overall growth in the decade was still over 22 percent.

    Now look at the census data for the bad ole’ Soviet Union:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

    The decade of 1926 to 1937 saw a population growth of 14 million, a growth rate of nearly 10 percent, higher than the US rate in the same timeframe.

    Amazing once again how the trusty Wikipedia Wizards sanitize the Dust Bowl years and continue the spoonfeeding of pabulum.

    No mention of man-made famine here, or how the banker parasites literally bulldozed the tenant farmers’ shacks and barns off what they thought was their land as depicted unforgettably in Bound for Glory (incidentally first film to use Steadicam technology).

    Oh no, it was all just because of “deep plowing” and “insufficient understanding of the ecology of the plains” …oh yeah Wikipedia…

    Do these clowns in the media-propaganda circus actually believe their own verbal masturbation? (Excuse vulgarity for gentler souls).

    Read More
    • Agree: Regnum Nostrum
    • Replies: @tbraton
    "The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the ’30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?) "

    Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    So are you saying that Stalin, Kaganovich and co didn't conceive and execute policy against the kulaks which killed millions of people by famine - comparable to Mao's disastrous Great Leap Forward?

    Also can you answer my earlier question about the comparable policies and effects - or absence thereof and reasons for absence - in other Soviet republics? (I suspect the importance of Ukraine as the breadbasket may have been a factor????)

    And can you give your demographic selections some modest relevance by putting them in context of different fertility rates and trends therein, availability and take up of birth control methods, age of marriage etc. Also Ukraine v. the rest. No doubt you are aware that Germany had 2 million births in 1913 and Russia 5 million so that both had plenty of cannon fodder ready for the big 1940s Hitler-Stalin match but also had lots of breeders in the 30s.
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  12. @Positive Dennis
    I was walking across a bridge one sunny day, and I saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump. I ran over and said: 'Stop. Don't do it.'

    'Why shouldn't I?' he asked.

    'Well, there's so much to live for!'

    'Like what?'

    'Are you religious?'

    He said: 'Yes.'

    I said. 'Me too. Are you Christian or Buddhist?'

    'Christian.'

    'Me too. Are you Catholic or Protestant?''

    'Protestant.'

    'Me too. Are you Episcopalian or Baptist?'

    'Baptist.'

    'Wow. Me too. Are you Baptist Church of God or Baptist Church of the Lord?'

    'Baptist Church of God.'

    'Me too. Are you original Baptist Church of God, or are you reformed Baptist Church of God?'

    'Reformed Baptist Church of God.'

    'Me too. Are you Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1879, or Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915?'

    He said: 'Reformed Baptist Church of God, reformation of 1915.'

    I said: "Die, heretic scum," and pushed him off.

    What a pity we don’t have time for long jokes these days. How well that would have held an audience round a big winter fire in now distant days before smartphones and TV comedy. Even at the Crazy Horse saloon circa 1960..

    Read More
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  13. @tbraton
    OT but on a related topic, Israel has taken the mask off and made clear that it wants ISIS in power in Syria, "Israeli Intel Chief: We Don’t Want ISIS Defeated in Syria":

    " In a speech at the Herzliya Conference, Israel’s military intelligence chief, Major General Herzi Halevy, took Israel’s long-standing position that it “prefers ISIS” over the Syrian government to a whole ‘nother level, declaring openly that Israel does not want to see ISIS defeated in the war.

    Quoted in the Hebrew-language NRG site, linked to Maariv, Maj. Gen. Halevy expressed concern about the recent offensives against ISIS territory, saying that in the last three months the Islamist group was facing the “most difficult” situation since its inception and declaration of a caliphate.

    Israeli officials have regularly expressed comfort with the idea of ISIS conquering the whole of Syria, saying they find it preferable to the Iran-allied government surviving the war. At the same time, they were never so overtly supportive of ISIS and its survival.

    Halevy went on to express concern that the defeat of ISIS might mean the “superpowers” leaving Syria, saying this would put Israel “in a hard position” after being so opposed to the survival of the Syrian government.

    He then said Israel will do “all we can so as to not find ourselves in such a situation,” suggesting that the Israeli military is looking at direct support for ISIS as a matter of policy, and not just rhetoric."
    http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/21/israeli-intel-chief-we-dont-want-isis-defeated-in-syria/

    I thought ISIS was supposed to be the great enemy of the U.S. I guess this opens up Israel to bombing attacks from the U.S.

    One point of interest that I find in this is the Israeli obsession with Iran. Why?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SFG
    Rival power, I assume?
    , @Rehmat
    In November 2012, French weekly 'Le Canard Enchaine' reported that French Jewish President Francois Hollande criticized Zionist prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu for “being obsessed with Iran” and using memorial service at Toulhouse for political gains.

    “Netanyahu came to France to campaign (for his re-election) and we knew that,” Hollande told journalists in private remark reported the weekly.

    Netanyahu met Hollande last Thursday and, according to the weekly, he just kept talking about the Islamic Republic during the entire meeting.

    Personally I think Jewish leaders and some rabbis are obsessed with Iran because they fear a reproach between Tehran and Washington would kill the Holy Cow which keeps providing over $3 billion military aid per year to baby-killer Jewish army.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/11/12/french-president-netanyahu-is-obsessed-with-iran/
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  14. To me this Saker article wreeks of channeling Russian propaganda and without any reliable sources of information.

    Read More
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  15. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

    Read More
  16. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

    Read More
  17. Rehmat says:
    @Beckow
    Crimean Tatars had a slaver state in Crimea for a few hundred years until Russian army finally put an end to it in late 18th century. Moslems in Bulgaria, Bosnia, Albania and Caucasus committed genocide against Christian peasants and side with imperial Turkey. Then in WWII all of the above groups to some extent joined Nazis in murderous attack on the east. Ukrainians were by far the biggest victims of both Tatar slave raiders, Ottomans and then Nazi Germans and their allies. It is really weird today that they sing praises to their own slave owners. But lack of self esteem often has strange results.

    You can talk about perceived "oppression" all you want, the history speaks for itself - it was the Muslem invading groups and Muslem slave raiders who committed most crimes in Eastern Europe. Until you address your own history and its crimes, don't expect others to take your whinging seriously.

    Can you tell us “Jewish historian” why Harvard historian professor Niall Ferguson in his highly praised 2006 book, “The War of the World” missed all those Muslim genocides?

    Instead he claimed that some of the greatest mass murderers of modern times were Jewish. Ferguson’s research, however, centered on the Bolshevik revolution and the Lenin and Stalin era during which Jewish elites in the Russian government and Bolshevik terrorist organs like Cheka, GPU, NKVD and KGB, sent over 100 million Christian and Muslim communities to death camps or rooted out of their native homelands.

    Some other books on this subject include ‘Behind Communism’ by Frank Britton, ‘Stalin’s willing Executioners’ by Yuri Slezkine, ‘The Rulers of Russia’ by Rev. Denis Fahey, and ‘The Secret Behind Communism’, by David Duke Ph.D.

    My sincere advice – stop reading Muslim history narrative by that Zionist Jewish filth Daniel Pipes.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/02/11/worlds-most-mass-murderers-were-jewish/

    Read More
    • Replies: @pink_point
    There is "200 years together" by Solzhenitsyn, too (never officially translated in English).
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  18. JL says:

    So a country of some 40-odd million people, that couldn’t field an army of more than 30,000 or so to fight what they presented as a foreign invader, is now supposed to descend into religion inspired violence? I have a hard time believing that. As was noted above, Maidan was all about the Ukies as a modern day cargo cult. Once the killing and dying started in earnest, very few had an interest in actually fighting for it.

    Read More
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  19. Seraphim says:
    @Rehmat
    How come you didn't mention MUSLIMS involved in your whining, moron?

    Both Ukraine and Russia are controlled by the Organized Jewry, and their main victims are their Muslim minorities.

    The Muslim nationalities of Eastern Europe have been victims of numerous ethnic cleansing campaigns since the late 18th century. Among those nationalities expelled en masse during the 19th century from their homelands were the Bulgarian Muslims, Circassians, and Abkhazians. The Imperial Russian government was involved in all these mass expulsions.

    Under Jewish-controlled Soviet government, the genocide of Muslim reached to its peak. Crimean Tatars suffered from Joseph Stalin’s economic and political policies. Crimean Tatars had their first Nakba began in 1929-1931 when thousands of Crimean Tatars were deported to Northern Russia and the Urals. The forced collectivization of agriculture in the Crimea devastated the vineyards, orchards, and farms of the Crimean Tatars. This devastation contributed greatly to the 1932-1933 famine in the region. As the 1930s progressed Stalin began to curtail the cultural autonomy of the Crimean Tatars and persecute their intelligentsia. During 1937 and 1938, the Stalin’s Jewish dominated regime, executed a large number of Crimean Tatar intellectuals.

    Contrary to Stalin’s oppressive policy toward Muslim Tatars, he established first Jewish state of Birobidjan in Soviet Russia.

    The Nakba of the Crimean Muslim Tatars began in 1944, when the Red Army drove the Germans out of the lush and beautiful Crimean peninsula. After establishing control, the Russians began to load the natives onto trains and deport them to Central Asia. They accused the Tatars of collaborating with the Nazi enemy, though among them there were many brave and distinguished soldiers who had fought on the Russian side against the Nazis. The Soviets dealt with them as arbitrarily as did the Americans with their own native tribes: some two hundred thousand people, 15 or 20 per cent of the total Crimean population, were declared ‘hostile traitors’ and shipped away.....

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/02/20/crimea-and-palestine-muslim-genocide-by-jews/

    Perhaps one of the most amusing things would be the comedy of Muslims trying to emulate the Jews at playing the ‘innocent victim’ card, if not for their rather ‘tough’ approach to redress the slight to their ‘honor’, i.e. their demotion from the position of masters of the ‘Giaour’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    The "comedy" was played in Christian Europe while Muslim minority was rare in Europe - by expelling Jewish communities 108 times based on their threat to Christian faith and countries security. The longest expulsion was in England - 350 years.

    “I am not a nice Jew, because I don’t want to be a Jew, because Jewish values don’t really turn me on and all this ‘Pour out Thy wrath on the nations’ stuff doesn’t impress me,” Israel-born British author Gilad Atzmon.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/10/31/zionists-and-jews-padding-in-chicken-soup/
    , @edNels


    You guys probably know way more than me on this subject, so I ought to tread lightly.

    But here is my Goy cmment: The Sephardime are the real Jews, who have roots in the MidEast,right alongside the Palistinians. You are of the same race! and have DNA in common!

    However, the Ashkanzi Jews from the steps of Russia/mongolia, these who now control Isreal/Usa
    are not real Jews... completely not

    So put that in your pipe and smoke it.
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  20. […] Note from the Saker: I wrote this article before taking a break to write my thesis and I am posting it now even though my summer fundraiser will only end on Wednesday.   I just don’t want you to have to wait for the end of my fundraising drive before getting your news and analysis, especially on the Ukraine (which has been requested by many), but if you have not contributed yet – please do so now.  Thanks a lot!  The Saker ——- This article was written for the Unz Review […]

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  21. Rehmat says:
    @Seraphim
    Perhaps one of the most amusing things would be the comedy of Muslims trying to emulate the Jews at playing the 'innocent victim' card, if not for their rather 'tough' approach to redress the slight to their 'honor', i.e. their demotion from the position of masters of the 'Giaour'.

    The “comedy” was played in Christian Europe while Muslim minority was rare in Europe – by expelling Jewish communities 108 times based on their threat to Christian faith and countries security. The longest expulsion was in England – 350 years.

    “I am not a nice Jew, because I don’t want to be a Jew, because Jewish values don’t really turn me on and all this ‘Pour out Thy wrath on the nations’ stuff doesn’t impress me,” Israel-born British author Gilad Atzmon.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/10/31/zionists-and-jews-padding-in-chicken-soup/

    Read More
    • Replies: @pink_point
    I don't agree with you that Jews are the problem of the problems of the world.

    Although, yes, they are very very intelligent, and as a result of that, powerful. And groups holding too much power always become a serious threat.

    But you seem to believe they are behind any single problem in the whole world, and I can't agree on that.
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  22. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    “Alas, the disconnection between this kind of nonsense and reality is total.”

    Disconnect

    “As for the Minsk Agreements, Russia is not part to them at all”

    party to them

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  23. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    If you want to hurt the pride of the Ukies, tell them they are now the hapless bitches of globalist Jews and homos.
    Say that Ukraine is a satrapy(or satrophy) of Jewish-Homo or Jomo Empire.
    Say that homo parades are victory conquest celebrations of Jomo globalism.
    Say that Homomania is the new official religion of the Ukrainian state that is little more than a collaborationist regime of Jomo Supremacist Power.

    Mock and taunt Ukraine this way, and things will really begin to happen.

    Ukies haven’t much brains, but they do have machopride. Once lampooned as the wussy-collaborators of the Jomo Empire that promotes Homomania as the new faith, Ukrainians will become disillusioned and demoralized.
    They might have a Maidan against the current regime and globo-Jomo masters.

    So, Ukrainian freedom is bending over to the Jomo empire and worshiping the homo fecal-stained penis as the new god? Or the celebration of men cutting dick and balls to get a fake vagina?

    Such is the new ‘religious’ faith of the Jomos.

    The real spiritual war is between Sanity & Decency and Homomania.

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  24. SFG says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    One point of interest that I find in this is the Israeli obsession with Iran. Why?

    Rival power, I assume?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Yes, see my speculative comment in response to Rehmat's #25.
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  25. Rehmat says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    One point of interest that I find in this is the Israeli obsession with Iran. Why?

    In November 2012, French weekly ‘Le Canard Enchaine’ reported that French Jewish President Francois Hollande criticized Zionist prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu for “being obsessed with Iran” and using memorial service at Toulhouse for political gains.

    “Netanyahu came to France to campaign (for his re-election) and we knew that,” Hollande told journalists in private remark reported the weekly.

    Netanyahu met Hollande last Thursday and, according to the weekly, he just kept talking about the Islamic Republic during the entire meeting.

    Personally I think Jewish leaders and some rabbis are obsessed with Iran because they fear a reproach between Tehran and Washington would kill the Holy Cow which keeps providing over $3 billion military aid per year to baby-killer Jewish army.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/11/12/french-president-netanyahu-is-obsessed-with-iran/

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Credit where it is due. I do find your references to Hollande and Netanyahu interesting (without checking them beyond what you have provided).

    I suspect that Netanyahu, if also interested in keeping the cash coming, also panders to some Greater Israel sentiment which notes that most (descendants of) Palestinian refugees are already scattered beyond Palestine and sees opportunity in a Balkanised ME in which Israel is dominant to establish a single state with still a great majority of Jews plus tiny little pockets of Palestinian city states.
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  26. The US should get together with Russia and simply destroy Israel. Raze Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Haifa from the air, and station ships offshore to prevent any escape. Enough already.

    The territory of “Israel”, and the oil recently discovered nearby and offshore, can be shared between a new Christian State and a new independent Muslim Palestine.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    And you still call yourself RadicalCenter or is this satire?
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  27. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Ukraine mess fits the larger pattern(of Middle East and Asian pivot troubles).

    Just a pawn in the great GLOB chess game.

    It is fitting that Scary Gary Kasparov is against Russia.

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  28. KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:
    @Rich
    Better Ukrainians than Muslims. The Ukrainians are a European people with the same cultural origins as the rest of Europe. They would be a net plus to Europe, or even America.

    Apparently British did not buy the cultural similarities or religious affiliations.They don’t want to have anything to do with Poles,Lithuanian, Greek or Romanian . Will they suck up to the entreaties of the Russified Kievan orthodox church goers ? Dont’ think so.
    Eastern Europe is distraught that they have not been accepted s equal by Anglo Saxon or by Anglo American tribe despite doing everything for the empire . It is entirely logical now they would try anything including :’take me I am not muslim ”
    Ukraine shall try Australia – it’s a big country until the “swarthy white men” replace the “swarthy brown man ” from the lists to be monitored and hated . Didn’t east European bring with them the fear of the socialism and communism to American east coast in early 20th ? What would they this time? They would try to get into competition with Oriental and Asian . Rest will remain inaccessible.
    It will be a different type of social unrest and nobody in London or Washington wants it .

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  29. Joe Wong says:
    @Rehmat
    It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine while the ruling Jewish minority watching. Isn't what is happening in the Middle East for decades thanks to US Congress' blind support for the Zionist regimes for decades?

    However, it would not be the first time Christians killed fellow Christians to serve the interests of the World Zionist Congress. They did it in WWI and WWII in the past during which more than 100 million people, mostly Christians, were slaughtered for no reasons.

    It's very important for the US to maintain its iron grip over Poland, Slovakia, Hungary, Romania and Moldova because according to ADL "survey" antisemitism is on the rise in those countries.

    The tension between Germany and Hungary has flared over Hungary’s constitution changes which Jewish groups claim would cause further increase antisemitism within Europe. Both Germany and the European Union have condemned Hungary’s constitutional changes.

    On May 16, 2013, German Chancellor Angela Markel in her speech at the 16th International WDR Europeforum in Berlin, issued a veiled threat to Hungarian government by invoking Adolph Hitler’s occupation of Hungary in 1944.

    “We will do anything to get Hungary onto the right path – but not sending the cavalry right away,” said Markel.

    Hungary’s Israel-Firster prime minister Viktor Orban responded to Merkel’s “cavalry” comment, saying: “The Germans have already sent cavalry to Hungary – they came in form of tanks. Our request is that they don’t send any. It didn’t work out,” Orban told state broadcaster Kossuth Radio on Friday.

    https://rehmat1.com/2013/05/21/markel-threatens-hungary-over-antisemitism/

    “It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine,” haven’t the Ukrainian Christians been killing Ukrainian Christians since Maidan Square mob putsch?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Don't you know the so-called "Maidan Square mob putsch" was as much an American Apple Pie as was the Arab Spring?

    In February 2014, US ambassador to Ukraine, Jeffrey Pyatt (Zionist Jew) confirmed that the neo-Nazi Ukrainian political party Svoboda" played an extremely constructive role during these three months of demonstrations". In the past, Sen. John McCain and John Kerry's Jewish assistant Nuland held meetings with the leaders of Svoboda in Kiev.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/03/27/ukraine-former-jewish-pm-calls-for-russian-holocaust/
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  30. Mr. The Saker,

    calling Westerners who get their worldview and notions about their time from the TV “idiots” doesn’t look like a particularly noble instance of behaviour to me.

    We are talking of average people, masses.
    When the Western masses are specifically called “idiots” one argued you believe the other masses of the world more… educated? Mindful?
    That is fanciful, and partisan, which is one of the many antonyms of “broad-minded”.

    Aside from the fancy that masses be cleverer elsewhere than in the West, I never appreciate referring to people who can’t, for intellectual or situational reasons, understand what others do understand as to minor beings.
    It would become a chain of disrespect and scorn, from the top down to the bottom, step by step.

    We already have too many snakes in the mainstream media enjoying insulting the very groups of people they can revel in insulting without fearing consequences; and their show dreary pettiness.
    The cowardice of these people is why I avoid Twitter, as well as the many NYT’s and WaPo’s of the West.
    I am a fond reader of Unz Review, conversely, and of your articles, which theses I often agree with.

    But the “idiot” word, referred to common people? For an instant I felt I was reading a NYT’s big shot’s editorial, and it was very uncomfortable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @joe webb
    To the sacker anyone who disagrees with his pro-commie and russian nationalist and russian church point of view is an idiot.

    This guy believes in Racial Equality, the biggest goofiness on the planet. Not fit for UR or anything else which is interested in Reason. See Spinoza, and overlook the endless talmudic parsing.. The Fundamental is Reason. The Fundamental today is Race/biology with Reason standing at attention. The sacker is pure propaganda.

    The Fascists....and the commies, like cowboys and injuns.

    JW
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  31. @Rehmat
    The "comedy" was played in Christian Europe while Muslim minority was rare in Europe - by expelling Jewish communities 108 times based on their threat to Christian faith and countries security. The longest expulsion was in England - 350 years.

    “I am not a nice Jew, because I don’t want to be a Jew, because Jewish values don’t really turn me on and all this ‘Pour out Thy wrath on the nations’ stuff doesn’t impress me,” Israel-born British author Gilad Atzmon.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/10/31/zionists-and-jews-padding-in-chicken-soup/

    I don’t agree with you that Jews are the problem of the problems of the world.

    Although, yes, they are very very intelligent, and as a result of that, powerful. And groups holding too much power always become a serious threat.

    But you seem to believe they are behind any single problem in the whole world, and I can’t agree on that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    I've told Rehmat several times that he could save a lot of time and trouble by simply having a text file he could copy and paste that said "It's da Jooooooos fault."

    So far he hasn't listened, which is no surprise since he simply loves banging his head against the wall and in the woozy state that follows he sees nothing but Jews all around him.

    It's sad. Much like Saker's, and some of the commentariat here, thoughts that Ukrainians are naught but Nazis, all the while Putin is establishing a National Socialist state based in Moscow. It's sad to see otherwise intelligent men acting, and writing, like morons.
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  32. @Rehmat
    Can you tell us "Jewish historian" why Harvard historian professor Niall Ferguson in his highly praised 2006 book, "The War of the World" missed all those Muslim genocides?

    Instead he claimed that some of the greatest mass murderers of modern times were Jewish. Ferguson’s research, however, centered on the Bolshevik revolution and the Lenin and Stalin era during which Jewish elites in the Russian government and Bolshevik terrorist organs like Cheka, GPU, NKVD and KGB, sent over 100 million Christian and Muslim communities to death camps or rooted out of their native homelands.

    Some other books on this subject include ‘Behind Communism’ by Frank Britton, ‘Stalin’s willing Executioners’ by Yuri Slezkine, ‘The Rulers of Russia’ by Rev. Denis Fahey, and ‘The Secret Behind Communism’, by David Duke Ph.D.

    My sincere advice - stop reading Muslim history narrative by that Zionist Jewish filth Daniel Pipes.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/02/11/worlds-most-mass-murderers-were-jewish/

    There is “200 years together” by Solzhenitsyn, too (never officially translated in English).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What do you mean by "officially"? Do you want some government to sponsor its translation when it is in fact available in translation online?
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  33. joe webb says:
    @pink_point
    Mr. The Saker,

    calling Westerners who get their worldview and notions about their time from the TV "idiots" doesn't look like a particularly noble instance of behaviour to me.

    We are talking of average people, masses.
    When the Western masses are specifically called "idiots" one argued you believe the other masses of the world more... educated? Mindful?
    That is fanciful, and partisan, which is one of the many antonyms of "broad-minded".

    Aside from the fancy that masses be cleverer elsewhere than in the West, I never appreciate referring to people who can't, for intellectual or situational reasons, understand what others do understand as to minor beings.
    It would become a chain of disrespect and scorn, from the top down to the bottom, step by step.

    We already have too many snakes in the mainstream media enjoying insulting the very groups of people they can revel in insulting without fearing consequences; and their show dreary pettiness.
    The cowardice of these people is why I avoid Twitter, as well as the many NYT's and WaPo's of the West.
    I am a fond reader of Unz Review, conversely, and of your articles, which theses I often agree with.

    But the "idiot" word, referred to common people? For an instant I felt I was reading a NYT's big shot's editorial, and it was very uncomfortable.

    To the sacker anyone who disagrees with his pro-commie and russian nationalist and russian church point of view is an idiot.

    This guy believes in Racial Equality, the biggest goofiness on the planet. Not fit for UR or anything else which is interested in Reason. See Spinoza, and overlook the endless talmudic parsing.. The Fundamental is Reason. The Fundamental today is Race/biology with Reason standing at attention. The sacker is pure propaganda.

    The Fascists….and the commies, like cowboys and injuns.

    JW

    Read More
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  34. tbraton says:
    @flankerbandit
    I realize that the "Holodomor" or "man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed an estimated 2.5–7.5 million Ukrainians" (according to the unimpeachable Wikipedia) isn't part of this story.

    But it is only a matter of time before this propaganda schtick starts to crank up again, in the context of Russian crimes against Ukraine.

    Interesting though how the Dust Bowl and US famine (and population decline) in the same decade goes swooshing down the memory hole.

    Anyone who's ever watched the great 1976 film "Bound for Glory" or read Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" (I wonder if this book is still part of the so-called education curriculum these days) will realize that the decade of the 1930s was no picnic in the promised land either.

    Numbers don't lie (and even Wikipedia can't make them up) so just go to US demographics and look at the decade by decade population growth column:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

    For the first time since the very first US census in 1790 (140 years) the US decade by decade population growth nosedives to single digits, 7.3 percent, from 1930 to 1940. Previous decade was 16.2 percent, and 1940 to '50 was 14.5 percent.

    The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the '30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?)

    Even the civil war decade only saw a modest drop in the growth rate, although overall growth in the decade was still over 22 percent.

    Now look at the census data for the bad ole' Soviet Union:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

    The decade of 1926 to 1937 saw a population growth of 14 million, a growth rate of nearly 10 percent, higher than the US rate in the same timeframe.

    Amazing once again how the trusty Wikipedia Wizards sanitize the Dust Bowl years and continue the spoonfeeding of pabulum.

    No mention of man-made famine here, or how the banker parasites literally bulldozed the tenant farmers' shacks and barns off what they thought was their land as depicted unforgettably in Bound for Glory (incidentally first film to use Steadicam technology).

    Oh no, it was all just because of "deep plowing" and "insufficient understanding of the ecology of the plains" ...oh yeah Wikipedia...

    Do these clowns in the media-propaganda circus actually believe their own verbal masturbation? (Excuse vulgarity for gentler souls).

    “The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the ’30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?) ”

    Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    No he didn't think of that (or even know about it) or about the matters i have just raised, infra.
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  35. @flankerbandit
    I realize that the "Holodomor" or "man-made famine in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1932 and 1933 that killed an estimated 2.5–7.5 million Ukrainians" (according to the unimpeachable Wikipedia) isn't part of this story.

    But it is only a matter of time before this propaganda schtick starts to crank up again, in the context of Russian crimes against Ukraine.

    Interesting though how the Dust Bowl and US famine (and population decline) in the same decade goes swooshing down the memory hole.

    Anyone who's ever watched the great 1976 film "Bound for Glory" or read Steinbeck's "Grapes of Wrath" (I wonder if this book is still part of the so-called education curriculum these days) will realize that the decade of the 1930s was no picnic in the promised land either.

    Numbers don't lie (and even Wikipedia can't make them up) so just go to US demographics and look at the decade by decade population growth column:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_the_United_States

    For the first time since the very first US census in 1790 (140 years) the US decade by decade population growth nosedives to single digits, 7.3 percent, from 1930 to 1940. Previous decade was 16.2 percent, and 1940 to '50 was 14.5 percent.

    The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the '30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?)

    Even the civil war decade only saw a modest drop in the growth rate, although overall growth in the decade was still over 22 percent.

    Now look at the census data for the bad ole' Soviet Union:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_the_Soviet_Union

    The decade of 1926 to 1937 saw a population growth of 14 million, a growth rate of nearly 10 percent, higher than the US rate in the same timeframe.

    Amazing once again how the trusty Wikipedia Wizards sanitize the Dust Bowl years and continue the spoonfeeding of pabulum.

    No mention of man-made famine here, or how the banker parasites literally bulldozed the tenant farmers' shacks and barns off what they thought was their land as depicted unforgettably in Bound for Glory (incidentally first film to use Steadicam technology).

    Oh no, it was all just because of "deep plowing" and "insufficient understanding of the ecology of the plains" ...oh yeah Wikipedia...

    Do these clowns in the media-propaganda circus actually believe their own verbal masturbation? (Excuse vulgarity for gentler souls).

    So are you saying that Stalin, Kaganovich and co didn’t conceive and execute policy against the kulaks which killed millions of people by famine – comparable to Mao’s disastrous Great Leap Forward?

    Also can you answer my earlier question about the comparable policies and effects – or absence thereof and reasons for absence – in other Soviet republics? (I suspect the importance of Ukraine as the breadbasket may have been a factor????)

    And can you give your demographic selections some modest relevance by putting them in context of different fertility rates and trends therein, availability and take up of birth control methods, age of marriage etc. Also Ukraine v. the rest. No doubt you are aware that Germany had 2 million births in 1913 and Russia 5 million so that both had plenty of cannon fodder ready for the big 1940s Hitler-Stalin match but also had lots of breeders in the 30s.

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  36. @tbraton
    "The population growth rate was cut by more than half in the ’30s. (What, people stopped coming to America?) "

    Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.

    No he didn’t think of that (or even know about it) or about the matters i have just raised, infra.

    Read More
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  37. @pink_point
    There is "200 years together" by Solzhenitsyn, too (never officially translated in English).

    What do you mean by “officially”? Do you want some government to sponsor its translation when it is in fact available in translation online?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Do you we Canadian cannot buy an English translation of Talmud?

    However, Arabic translation of Talmud was released by a panel of Jordanian scholars, which can be purchased in several Arab countries.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/05/26/talmud-goes-arabic-jewish-groups-hit-the-wall/
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  38. @RadicalCenter
    The US should get together with Russia and simply destroy Israel. Raze Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and Haifa from the air, and station ships offshore to prevent any escape. Enough already.

    The territory of "Israel", and the oil recently discovered nearby and offshore, can be shared between a new Christian State and a new independent Muslim Palestine.

    And you still call yourself RadicalCenter or is this satire?

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  39. @Rehmat
    In November 2012, French weekly 'Le Canard Enchaine' reported that French Jewish President Francois Hollande criticized Zionist prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu for “being obsessed with Iran” and using memorial service at Toulhouse for political gains.

    “Netanyahu came to France to campaign (for his re-election) and we knew that,” Hollande told journalists in private remark reported the weekly.

    Netanyahu met Hollande last Thursday and, according to the weekly, he just kept talking about the Islamic Republic during the entire meeting.

    Personally I think Jewish leaders and some rabbis are obsessed with Iran because they fear a reproach between Tehran and Washington would kill the Holy Cow which keeps providing over $3 billion military aid per year to baby-killer Jewish army.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/11/12/french-president-netanyahu-is-obsessed-with-iran/

    Credit where it is due. I do find your references to Hollande and Netanyahu interesting (without checking them beyond what you have provided).

    I suspect that Netanyahu, if also interested in keeping the cash coming, also panders to some Greater Israel sentiment which notes that most (descendants of) Palestinian refugees are already scattered beyond Palestine and sees opportunity in a Balkanised ME in which Israel is dominant to establish a single state with still a great majority of Jews plus tiny little pockets of Palestinian city states.

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  40. @SFG
    Rival power, I assume?

    Yes, see my speculative comment in response to Rehmat’s #25.

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  41. Rehmat says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    What do you mean by "officially"? Do you want some government to sponsor its translation when it is in fact available in translation online?

    Do you we Canadian cannot buy an English translation of Talmud?

    However, Arabic translation of Talmud was released by a panel of Jordanian scholars, which can be purchased in several Arab countries.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/05/26/talmud-goes-arabic-jewish-groups-hit-the-wall/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Your first par. - with "know" added for sense -must be rubbish. There are English translations. Are you referring, by the way, to the Babylonian Talmud (what language was that written in - do you know?)?
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  42. “Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.

    1790 3,929,214 —
    1800 5,236,631 33.3%
    1810 7,239,881 38.3%
    1820 9,638,453 33.1%
    1830 12,866,020 33.5%
    1840 17,069,453 32.7%
    1850 23,191,876 35.9%
    1860 31,443,321 35.6%
    1870 38,558,371 22.6%
    1880 49,371,340 28.0%
    1890 62,979,766 27.6%
    1900 76,212,168 21.0%
    1910 92,228,531 21.0%
    1920 106,021,568 15.0%
    1930 123,202,660 16.2%
    1940 132,165,129 7.3%
    1950 151,325,798 14.5%
    1960 179,323,175 18.5%
    1970 203,211,926 13.3%
    1980 226,545,805 11.5%
    1990 248,709,873 9.8%
    2000 281,421,906 13.2%
    2010 308,745,538 9.7%

    Please look at the numbers. If the immigration restrictions of 1924 to 1965 had a large effect they would have affected four decades, not just one.

    In the decade of 1920 to 1930, the same decade these restrictions came into effect, the growth rate actually increased from 15 percent in the previous decade to 16.2 percent.

    From 1940 to 1950, the growth jumped again to 14.5 percent. From 1950 to 1960 it jumped again to 18.5 percent. From 1960 to 1970 it was still 13.3 percent.

    Your argument simply does not hold any water. You cannot explain away the huge statistical drop of population growth in the 1930s with such non-starters. Try again.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Rubbish. Just a glance suffices. The mid 20s legislation was *because of* the high immigration and the composition changed after 1940.
    , @tbraton
    I didn't realize when I first responded that you just started posting on unz.com this month and are up to a total of 7 comments, which, together with the tone of your posts, marks you as a likely troll. However, this is a table I found on Wikipedia:

    Persons Obtaining Legal Permanent Resident Status Fiscal Years 1820 to 2010
    Year Year Year
    1820 8,385 1885 395,346 1950 249,187
    1825 10,199 1890 455,302 1955 237,790
    1830 23,322 1895 258,536 1960 265,398
    1835 45,374 1900 448,572 1965 296,697
    1840 84,066 1905 1,026,499 1970 373,326
    1845 114,371 1910 1,041,570 1975 385,378
    1850 369,980 1915 326,700 1980 524,295
    1855 200,877 1920 430,001 1985 568,149
    1860 153,640 1925 294,314 1990 1,535,872
    1865 248,120 1930 241,700 1995 720,177
    1870 387,203 1935 34,956 2000 841,002
    1875 227,498 1940 70,756 2005 1,122,257
    1880 457,257 1945 38,119 2010 1,042,625
    Source: US Department of Homeland Security, Persons Obtaining Legal Permanent Resident Status: Fiscal Years 1820 to 2010[54]

    You will notice that the numbers went from over a million in 1905 and 1910 (I am assuming that the numbers pertain to each year listed and are five-year totals) to just under 35,000 in 1935 before increasing to 1.5 million in 1990. You also seem to disregard the effect of the Great Depression in the 1930's which served to temper natural population growth, as well as WWII in the 1940's. Then, of course, we had the very famous post-war "baby boom" which caused our natural population to increase again after 1945.
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  43. @ Wizard of Oz

    You are all over the map…talking about Stalin, Mao, birth rates, birth control etc…basically incoherent gibberish…

    I’m not a historian or demographer, but I am certainly well aware of the West’s propaganda and penchant for rewriting history.

    An example of this is the recent trend to minimize the Soviet Union’s victory over Nazi Germany in ww2. Most Westerners now believe it was the US and its Western allies that won the war, even though nearly 80 percent of German combatant deaths occurred on the Eastern Front.

    And despite the fact that the Western front only opened in 1944 with the Normandy invasion, when the Germans were already beaten and in full retreat, with the Red Army on Germany’s doorstep. Don’t forget it was the Red Army that marched into Berlin.

    As for the forced collectivization of Soviet agriculture in the 1930s, how was that worse than the US banker parasites bulldozing tenant farmers off their land? Only difference is this event is now deliberately covered over and forgotten.

    Russian demographers estimate that 7.5 million Americans died in the 1930s famine, including 2.5 million children.

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  44. @Rehmat
    Do you we Canadian cannot buy an English translation of Talmud?

    However, Arabic translation of Talmud was released by a panel of Jordanian scholars, which can be purchased in several Arab countries.

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/05/26/talmud-goes-arabic-jewish-groups-hit-the-wall/

    Your first par. – with “know” added for sense -must be rubbish. There are English translations. Are you referring, by the way, to the Babylonian Talmud (what language was that written in – do you know?)?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Don't you know that stupid? Babylonian Talmud was written by Christian hating rabbi's in Hebrew.
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  45. @flankerbandit
    @tbraton

    "Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.

    1790 3,929,214 —
    1800 5,236,631 33.3%
    1810 7,239,881 38.3%
    1820 9,638,453 33.1%
    1830 12,866,020 33.5%
    1840 17,069,453 32.7%
    1850 23,191,876 35.9%
    1860 31,443,321 35.6%
    1870 38,558,371 22.6%
    1880 49,371,340 28.0%
    1890 62,979,766 27.6%
    1900 76,212,168 21.0%
    1910 92,228,531 21.0%
    1920 106,021,568 15.0%
    1930 123,202,660 16.2%
    1940 132,165,129 7.3%
    1950 151,325,798 14.5%
    1960 179,323,175 18.5%
    1970 203,211,926 13.3%
    1980 226,545,805 11.5%
    1990 248,709,873 9.8%
    2000 281,421,906 13.2%
    2010 308,745,538 9.7%

    Please look at the numbers. If the immigration restrictions of 1924 to 1965 had a large effect they would have affected four decades, not just one.

    In the decade of 1920 to 1930, the same decade these restrictions came into effect, the growth rate actually increased from 15 percent in the previous decade to 16.2 percent.

    From 1940 to 1950, the growth jumped again to 14.5 percent. From 1950 to 1960 it jumped again to 18.5 percent. From 1960 to 1970 it was still 13.3 percent.

    Your argument simply does not hold any water. You cannot explain away the huge statistical drop of population growth in the 1930s with such non-starters. Try again.

    Rubbish. Just a glance suffices. The mid 20s legislation was *because of* the high immigration and the composition changed after 1940.

    Read More
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  46. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:
    @Seraphim
    Perhaps one of the most amusing things would be the comedy of Muslims trying to emulate the Jews at playing the 'innocent victim' card, if not for their rather 'tough' approach to redress the slight to their 'honor', i.e. their demotion from the position of masters of the 'Giaour'.

    You guys probably know way more than me on this subject, so I ought to tread lightly.

    But here is my Goy cmment: The Sephardime are the real Jews, who have roots in the MidEast,right alongside the Palistinians. You are of the same race! and have DNA in common!

    However, the Ashkanzi Jews from the steps of Russia/mongolia, these who now control Isreal/Usa
    are not real Jews… completely not

    So put that in your pipe and smoke it.

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  47. The westerners have felt no compunction about shelling Orthodox Churches – along with the faithful, or otherwise – in the east. The (Russian) orthodox Ukrainians because they have formed their own ‘schismatc’ sect and the Catholics because they never have liked having the Easterners (communists) in the catbird seat.

    Problem is there aren’t enough ‘romans’ left in Ukraine to change much – civilization-wise – for most of those fled west with the Germans with whom they associated themselves – they do their ‘fighting for the homeland’ from the US, Canada and Britain.

    So the fight won’t be religious as much as waged on the promise of pillage – the traditional motivator.

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  48. @Beckow
    Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

    What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That's why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation - it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

    The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU - and endless delays are also a denial - the end could be very quick. The last "revolution" attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

    Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous - once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

    By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world - from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

    Highly unlikely the EU is going to want to be flooded by Ukrainians even if they are ‘aspirational’ and ‘dreamy’. They’re also needy and unemployed and speak an odd language – having the same qualifications as the millions clamoring to sneak into EU illegally and otherwise.

    Besides their classic ‘good looks’, Ukrainians seem to bear a national streak of self-destructive behavior, larceny and mindless violence. Some things Europe already has in spades.

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  49. @pink_point
    I don't agree with you that Jews are the problem of the problems of the world.

    Although, yes, they are very very intelligent, and as a result of that, powerful. And groups holding too much power always become a serious threat.

    But you seem to believe they are behind any single problem in the whole world, and I can't agree on that.

    I’ve told Rehmat several times that he could save a lot of time and trouble by simply having a text file he could copy and paste that said “It’s da Jooooooos fault.”

    So far he hasn’t listened, which is no surprise since he simply loves banging his head against the wall and in the woozy state that follows he sees nothing but Jews all around him.

    It’s sad. Much like Saker’s, and some of the commentariat here, thoughts that Ukrainians are naught but Nazis, all the while Putin is establishing a National Socialist state based in Moscow. It’s sad to see otherwise intelligent men acting, and writing, like morons.

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  50. Just more of Saker’s usual bilge. If there is a war touched off by the fight between Orthodox Patriarchates, it will be Putin that does it. He’s already shown himself a complete fool in Ukraine, so sending Tanks to Kyiv won’t damage his reputation anymore than the earlier theft of Crimea, or the shipping of GRU officers to the Donbas has done.

    Putin has been an idiot and is doing little more than drubbing the Russian people again.

    By the by, Russia is a participant in the Minsk agreements. Those are Russian troops and equipment in the Donbas.

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    • Replies: @Cyrano
    Do you realize you are wasting a valuable CNN watching time by writing you BS here? Go back to CNN, this is way above your intellectual level.
    , @X
    QM1*,

    Your comments are typical of the American military establishment. You are afflicted with foolish pride and a vainglorious sense of your own importance.

    The Russian people have endured a lot more for their nation and faith than anything the modern day Anglo-Zionists can even imagine. They are not the shabbos goyim of the globalist moneychangers like Muricans.

    Since you know so much, tell us your take on the incident with the USS Donald Duck last year in the Black Sea? Damn, that’s a cursed ship…

    Also, check out the 4PT blog, interesting article about underwater remote controlled nukes placed on the seafloor off the eastern US. How well do you think Murica will survive a 1,000 ft tall tsunami arriving with no warning from Maine to Miami? (OK, maybe 500 ft tall)… “But, you says, that will destroy Russia too!” Really, you need to look at a map again.

    Lastly, did you see the video of the US Army ROTC cadets parading around in red high heels to demonstrate their empathy for womyn oppressed by the patriarchy and other various butthurt feminist feelings. Then check out the video of the Russian Cossack arresting the band members of Pussy Riot and their skinny jean hangers-on in Sochi during the Olympics in 2014? The Soros grrls and beta males thought they could sing a protest song against Evil Vlad for the assembled western presstitutes… didn’t go as they planned. How long do you think Murica’s cross dressing, transgendered rentboy army is going to hold their ground once the 1st Guards Tank Army crosses the Polish frontier?

    Bottom-line, hope your sea bag is packed and you are ready to man up when the War the neocons foolishly started finally kicks off.

    (* you have told us how the QM rating in the US Navy is for “navigators”, but if you were an commissioned officer you would be a surface warfare officer, a "SWO". And I don’t think you are made Chief).
    , @NoseytheDuke
    I take it that the military no longer administers drug-tests for those of your rank.
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  51. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The Ukraine Crisis – It’s the Intermarium Plan again.

    “Following World War Two, the CIA, Vatican, and MI6 reorganized the Prometheans and Intermarians into the openly fascist Anti Bolshevik Bloc and World Anti Communist league which welcomed former Nazis as long as they were anti Soviet too. Maidan agitator US Senator John McCain was once affiliated with the World Anti Communist League as an advisor and surely has had no qualms about his new friends in Kiev.

    Notably all these Intermarium states are predominately Roman Catholic with the exception of the Ukraine. Yet even in the heart of the Orthodox Church, the Vatican has made major inroads. A long standing campaign of Ukrainization has dispossessed the Moscow Patriarchy in favour of the Rome affiliated Easter Rite Church and Autonomous Ukrainian patriarchy. The presence of numerous priests on the front lines of the Maidan is by design not chance.”

    source: http://serbianna.com/analysis/archives/2574

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  52. tbraton says:
    @flankerbandit
    @tbraton

    "Uh, I hope you realize that there were severe limitations on immigration into the U.S. from 1924 until 1965, when the Immigration Act of 1965 was enacted into law.

    1790 3,929,214 —
    1800 5,236,631 33.3%
    1810 7,239,881 38.3%
    1820 9,638,453 33.1%
    1830 12,866,020 33.5%
    1840 17,069,453 32.7%
    1850 23,191,876 35.9%
    1860 31,443,321 35.6%
    1870 38,558,371 22.6%
    1880 49,371,340 28.0%
    1890 62,979,766 27.6%
    1900 76,212,168 21.0%
    1910 92,228,531 21.0%
    1920 106,021,568 15.0%
    1930 123,202,660 16.2%
    1940 132,165,129 7.3%
    1950 151,325,798 14.5%
    1960 179,323,175 18.5%
    1970 203,211,926 13.3%
    1980 226,545,805 11.5%
    1990 248,709,873 9.8%
    2000 281,421,906 13.2%
    2010 308,745,538 9.7%

    Please look at the numbers. If the immigration restrictions of 1924 to 1965 had a large effect they would have affected four decades, not just one.

    In the decade of 1920 to 1930, the same decade these restrictions came into effect, the growth rate actually increased from 15 percent in the previous decade to 16.2 percent.

    From 1940 to 1950, the growth jumped again to 14.5 percent. From 1950 to 1960 it jumped again to 18.5 percent. From 1960 to 1970 it was still 13.3 percent.

    Your argument simply does not hold any water. You cannot explain away the huge statistical drop of population growth in the 1930s with such non-starters. Try again.

    I didn’t realize when I first responded that you just started posting on unz.com this month and are up to a total of 7 comments, which, together with the tone of your posts, marks you as a likely troll. However, this is a table I found on Wikipedia:

    Persons Obtaining Legal Permanent Resident Status Fiscal Years 1820 to 2010
    Year Year Year
    1820 8,385 1885 395,346 1950 249,187
    1825 10,199 1890 455,302 1955 237,790
    1830 23,322 1895 258,536 1960 265,398
    1835 45,374 1900 448,572 1965 296,697
    1840 84,066 1905 1,026,499 1970 373,326
    1845 114,371 1910 1,041,570 1975 385,378
    1850 369,980 1915 326,700 1980 524,295
    1855 200,877 1920 430,001 1985 568,149
    1860 153,640 1925 294,314 1990 1,535,872
    1865 248,120 1930 241,700 1995 720,177
    1870 387,203 1935 34,956 2000 841,002
    1875 227,498 1940 70,756 2005 1,122,257
    1880 457,257 1945 38,119 2010 1,042,625
    Source: US Department of Homeland Security, Persons Obtaining Legal Permanent Resident Status: Fiscal Years 1820 to 2010[54]

    You will notice that the numbers went from over a million in 1905 and 1910 (I am assuming that the numbers pertain to each year listed and are five-year totals) to just under 35,000 in 1935 before increasing to 1.5 million in 1990. You also seem to disregard the effect of the Great Depression in the 1930′s which served to temper natural population growth, as well as WWII in the 1940′s. Then, of course, we had the very famous post-war “baby boom” which caused our natural population to increase again after 1945.

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  53. Cyrano says:
    @Quartermaster
    Just more of Saker's usual bilge. If there is a war touched off by the fight between Orthodox Patriarchates, it will be Putin that does it. He's already shown himself a complete fool in Ukraine, so sending Tanks to Kyiv won't damage his reputation anymore than the earlier theft of Crimea, or the shipping of GRU officers to the Donbas has done.

    Putin has been an idiot and is doing little more than drubbing the Russian people again.

    By the by, Russia is a participant in the Minsk agreements. Those are Russian troops and equipment in the Donbas.

    Do you realize you are wasting a valuable CNN watching time by writing you BS here? Go back to CNN, this is way above your intellectual level.

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    • Agree: edNels
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  54. JL says:

    Russia is not a party to the Minsk II agreement, this is a fact, no matter what anyone thinks they may have in the Donbass. Call Putin an idiot all you want, but Minsk II was done completely on his terms (including that Russia be a guarantor, and not a party, to it) because the Ukrainian army was about to suffer a slaughter. Whether that was at the hands of the Russians or not is irrelevant now.

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  55. Why not co opt the operation? If it is indeed a potential problem, all of the various heads of the three churches should be called to a joint meeting to prevent themselves from being used to destroy what remains of Ukraine. Surely being forewarned is being forearmed! There must be some form of echumenical orgaization within the Christian Orthodox panoply of churches that can be used to prevent this horrific situation from coming to haunt Ukraine. Even a totally separate Orthodox church could serve as a peacemaker, such as the Serbians for instance.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen


    Basically the Russian Orthodox are an Eastern version of the Church of England. Russia was formerly part of the Constantinople Patriarchy. However, the Tsar Ivan Grozny (Ivor the Awesome is a better modern translation than The Terrible) appointed his own Patriach and looted the monastries like his near contemporary Henry VIII in England (who was never a Protestant - Reformation came later). Ivan didn't go as gar as Henry. He didn't make himself Head of the Church (Henry has trained to be an Archbishop so he felt less restraint). Ivan just shut his inconvenient wife in a convent rather than worry about divorce. Both were also concerned, at a time when the idea of national identity was new, that their churches were controlled from outside the kingdom Rome/Constantinople. The parallels are very clear.

    So, there are ancient tensions between Russian Orthodoxy and the rest. The Russian Orthodox have just refused to attend a Synod called by the Greeks which every other Orthodox Church attended. Nationalist poison is strong in Russia.
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  56. X says:
    @Quartermaster
    Just more of Saker's usual bilge. If there is a war touched off by the fight between Orthodox Patriarchates, it will be Putin that does it. He's already shown himself a complete fool in Ukraine, so sending Tanks to Kyiv won't damage his reputation anymore than the earlier theft of Crimea, or the shipping of GRU officers to the Donbas has done.

    Putin has been an idiot and is doing little more than drubbing the Russian people again.

    By the by, Russia is a participant in the Minsk agreements. Those are Russian troops and equipment in the Donbas.

    QM1*,

    Your comments are typical of the American military establishment. You are afflicted with foolish pride and a vainglorious sense of your own importance.

    The Russian people have endured a lot more for their nation and faith than anything the modern day Anglo-Zionists can even imagine. They are not the shabbos goyim of the globalist moneychangers like Muricans.

    Since you know so much, tell us your take on the incident with the USS Donald Duck last year in the Black Sea? Damn, that’s a cursed ship…

    Also, check out the 4PT blog, interesting article about underwater remote controlled nukes placed on the seafloor off the eastern US. How well do you think Murica will survive a 1,000 ft tall tsunami arriving with no warning from Maine to Miami? (OK, maybe 500 ft tall)… “But, you says, that will destroy Russia too!” Really, you need to look at a map again.

    Lastly, did you see the video of the US Army ROTC cadets parading around in red high heels to demonstrate their empathy for womyn oppressed by the patriarchy and other various butthurt feminist feelings. Then check out the video of the Russian Cossack arresting the band members of Pussy Riot and their skinny jean hangers-on in Sochi during the Olympics in 2014? The Soros grrls and beta males thought they could sing a protest song against Evil Vlad for the assembled western presstitutes… didn’t go as they planned. How long do you think Murica’s cross dressing, transgendered rentboy army is going to hold their ground once the 1st Guards Tank Army crosses the Polish frontier?

    Bottom-line, hope your sea bag is packed and you are ready to man up when the War the neocons foolishly started finally kicks off.

    (* you have told us how the QM rating in the US Navy is for “navigators”, but if you were an commissioned officer you would be a surface warfare officer, a “SWO”. And I don’t think you are made Chief).

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  57. Rehmat says:
    @Joe Wong
    "It would be very interesting to watch Christians killing Christians in Ukraine," haven't the Ukrainian Christians been killing Ukrainian Christians since Maidan Square mob putsch?

    Don’t you know the so-called “Maidan Square mob putsch” was as much an American Apple Pie as was the Arab Spring?

    In February 2014, US ambassador to Ukraine, Jeffrey Pyatt (Zionist Jew) confirmed that the neo-Nazi Ukrainian political party Svoboda” played an extremely constructive role during these three months of demonstrations”. In the past, Sen. John McCain and John Kerry’s Jewish assistant Nuland held meetings with the leaders of Svoboda in Kiev.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/03/27/ukraine-former-jewish-pm-calls-for-russian-holocaust/

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  58. Rehmat says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Your first par. - with "know" added for sense -must be rubbish. There are English translations. Are you referring, by the way, to the Babylonian Talmud (what language was that written in - do you know?)?

    Don’t you know that stupid? Babylonian Talmud was written by Christian hating rabbi’s in Hebrew.

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  59. @ tbraton

    Greetings noble opponent…I actually just started posting here a couple of days ago…

    I also noticed something about you…you seem to get beat up regularly…but are a good sport about it…and come charging back undaunted by your losing ways…

    Props for effort…

    Now here again you show your penchant for homing in on one bit of the opponent’s message and taking it to ridiculous extremes of arcana…to prove nothing in the end…(or exactly the opposite of what you intended)

    Now about the immigration tables you dug up…Good work…I clearly made a mistake of making an ironic remark (in passing) about people suddenly stopping to come to America…

    The numbers prove your point that immigration nosedived in the 1930s…but you also prove me right simply because the immigration numbers, even at their peak, were never a big factor in US population growth…

    It seems population growth in the US has always been by far mostly of the homegrown variety…ie kids being born in the USA…which I must admit is kind of interesting, since the country is known as a land of immigrants…

    Take the decade of peak immigration all-time 1900 to 1910, with 2 million immigrants. It was still only 12.5 percent of total population growth of 16 million in that decade. (That historic immigration peak was eventually reached again..and slightly surpassed… in absolute numbers, exactly 100 years later in 2000 to 2010, although overall US population by then was more than three times what it was a hundred years previous.

    In any case let’s crunch some numbers to see if there really is a connection between the drop in immigration in the 1930s and the unprecedented nosedive in overall US population growth.

    True immigration in the 1930s was only 100 thousand in round numbers. However, even if we add a hypothetical 2 million immigrants that never came, the overall population growth would still be only 11 million people–fully 6 million less than in the previous decade of the 1920s., and 8 million less than the next decade of the 1940s.

    Now we must also keep in mind that in the 1920s immigration had already dropped to just 650,000. So there were over 16 million homegrown Americans added in that decade.

    Suddenly, in the 1930s it was just 8.9 million.

    Then in the 1940s with immigration of just under 300 thousand, the homegrown number was again a whopping nearly 19 million. Of course this was the baby boom decade.

    But the 1920s certainly was never known as a baby boom decade–in fact that was the depression decade…

    ‘So just to recap:

    1920s homegrown: over 16 million

    1930s homegrown: 9 million

    1940s homegrown: 19 million.

    What happened all of a sudden? Look Pa, no kids…

    Now common sense tells us that people don’t just stop having half the kids in one decade, and then carry on right back to normal the next.

    Clearly a demographic catastrophe occurred in the US in the 1930s and what’s worse is that this has been busily covered up ever since. Today we have people like you who find it inconceivable that a famine may have taken those missing 8 million Americans.

    But it certainly wasn’t inconceivable to John Steinbeck who wrote a great historical novel about it that won him the Nobel Prize in Literature. And if you want to learn more about how carefully Steinbeck researched his story of 1930s America you can start with good old wikipedia.

    But in case you never read the book (and probably never will) the final chapter of Grapes of Wrath certainly paints a poignant picture of how things were. The Joads, literally bulldozed off their dirt farm in Oklahoma and struggling to survive as basically fruit plantation slave labor in California, end up seeking shelter in an abandoned barn.

    Inside they find a young boy whose father is dying of starvation. Rose, nursing her own baby, offers the poor man her breast. This was not in the 1940 move starring Henry Fonda, and much of the second half of the book was changed in the screen adaptation.

    Sorry to burst your (and many other Americans’) bubble, but yes there was a famine in the USA in the 1930s…and the missing 8 million people certainly prove that beyond doubt.

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  60. Boris N says:
    @Beckow
    Ukrainians are not that religious. Most would shrug off any church hierarchy disputes. Not enough there to start civil disturbances. Even nationalism and ethnic conflict only interest small minorities on both sides. The truth is that most Ukrainians are quite lukewarm when it comes to identity.

    What really drove Maidan was a deep desire for a visa-free access to Europe. This yearning for unrestricted access to travel, study, live and work in Europe is the main passion in Ukraine, especially in Kiev. That's why hundreds of thousands of young, aspirational and often dreamy people came to Maidan. (I am not underestimating the radical nationalists or foreign manipulation - it is just they would not achieve anything without the genuine crowds of hundreds of thousands regular people who supported Maidan.)

    The big event will be the coming decision by EU on visa-free access. EU has been postponing it, they might try to split the difference. But soon a decision will have to be made. If EU gives Ukraine unrestricted visa-free access, millions will move, but it will also firm up support for Kiev government. If on the other hand Ukraine is denied visa-free access to EU - and endless delays are also a denial - the end could be very quick. The last "revolution" attempt in Ukraine ended ingloriously when Yushenko finally admitted that there would not be a visa-free access to EU.

    Russia can do nothing about this. US has been trying to force EU to give Ukraine a visa-free access, but EU for its own self-preservation reasons has resisted. The costs of millions of Ukrainians coming could be very high, especially given the migrant-Brexit-bad economy. But a cost of turning them down is also enormous - once millions of visa-yearners are denied their disappointment could dramatically change the situation in Ukraine.

    By the way, this dynamic exists in an extreme case in Ukraine, but it is present in most of the world - from Turkey to India, from Brazil to China, even Russia, West has been using travel access to its benefit. The problem is that it can be a very risky game.

    I heard that many times, that the one of the main driven forces of Maidan was a desire for visa-free access into the EU. But if it is true, then the alleged love for Ukraine by millions of pro-Maidan Ukrainians is absolutely fake. The Ukrainian nationalists, “patriots” and so called “activists” then in fact absolutely hate their country. They did not want a brighter future for the country but only wanted to run off out of it. This fact is really paradoxical, if not hilarious. I’d even say this is something truly mentally Ukrainian. Raise a revolution, destroy and ruin your own country just for a chance to sneak out. I hardly know any other nation which hates its country so much.

    But what is even more appalling, that the visa-free access was even not on the agenda. The association treaty says nothing about visa-free access. Absolutely nothing. And even if the Ukies get the access some time in the future, it would never mean what they wanted. It will be just an opportunity to travel as a tourist 90 days a year, nothing more. You cannot freely work, you cannot freely study, you cannot simply live in the EU indefinitely. The stupid Ukies have been just tricked by themselves!

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    • Replies: @Beckow
    It is possible to love Ukraine and also dream of a visa-free access to EU, and being able to work, study and live there. It is a bit screwed up, but those two emotions are not mutually exclusive.

    The visa-free access is a lot more than a "90 day tourist visit". EU doesn't enforce the time limit and there are numerous ways to work (mostly illegal), and free access opens up many other possibilities. It is quite valuable and would be used - and misused - by millions. With almost no enforcement in EU, getting in is half of the battle.

    That's why I think the pending decision on visa-free access is an absolutely core factor. If EU gives it (under US pressure), Kiev will have something and Maidan will stabilize - for a while. If EU delays it again (they will never formally turn it down), it will depend on the gullibility of Maidanistas whether they buy it. At some point, endless delays will be a clear message of rejection. Not yet.

    The situation is rather sad, and a lot of the weird stuff that we observe in Ukraine has to do with very immature, almost lazy, thinking - or more like dreaming and yearning. It comes from frustration and envy. It comes from having miserable lives. It is scary to contemplate what the reaction will be when the EU rejection and even lower living standards are finally impossible to deny. There is a chaotic and random nature to all mass movements - like Maidan - it is not at all clear-cut what they are all about and how they evolve. There is EU-yearning and hatred of elites, there is nationalism and envy, there is hatred of "Russians" and a cargo-cult like devotion to the Western "betters". But there is also something els: a raw anger at the way things are and a willingness to try anything. This could get very interesting.

    All Russia has to do is nothing. Keep the kettle boiling by closing any avenues of escape (trade, peace, money,...). At some point it will just blow up again.

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  61. gwynedd1 says:

    Yeah I don’t buy it. The best weapon of the US is the promise that is never delivered. After what they got from the first freedom protest, I think most of them don’t feel like they are on 90120. The West will let it fester while probing for other weaknesses. Perhaps they can stage something in the Baltics or Finland and pin it on Russia. Ukraine is spent.

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  62. Beckow says:
    @Boris N
    I heard that many times, that the one of the main driven forces of Maidan was a desire for visa-free access into the EU. But if it is true, then the alleged love for Ukraine by millions of pro-Maidan Ukrainians is absolutely fake. The Ukrainian nationalists, "patriots" and so called "activists" then in fact absolutely hate their country. They did not want a brighter future for the country but only wanted to run off out of it. This fact is really paradoxical, if not hilarious. I'd even say this is something truly mentally Ukrainian. Raise a revolution, destroy and ruin your own country just for a chance to sneak out. I hardly know any other nation which hates its country so much.

    But what is even more appalling, that the visa-free access was even not on the agenda. The association treaty says nothing about visa-free access. Absolutely nothing. And even if the Ukies get the access some time in the future, it would never mean what they wanted. It will be just an opportunity to travel as a tourist 90 days a year, nothing more. You cannot freely work, you cannot freely study, you cannot simply live in the EU indefinitely. The stupid Ukies have been just tricked by themselves!

    It is possible to love Ukraine and also dream of a visa-free access to EU, and being able to work, study and live there. It is a bit screwed up, but those two emotions are not mutually exclusive.

    The visa-free access is a lot more than a “90 day tourist visit”. EU doesn’t enforce the time limit and there are numerous ways to work (mostly illegal), and free access opens up many other possibilities. It is quite valuable and would be used – and misused – by millions. With almost no enforcement in EU, getting in is half of the battle.

    That’s why I think the pending decision on visa-free access is an absolutely core factor. If EU gives it (under US pressure), Kiev will have something and Maidan will stabilize – for a while. If EU delays it again (they will never formally turn it down), it will depend on the gullibility of Maidanistas whether they buy it. At some point, endless delays will be a clear message of rejection. Not yet.

    The situation is rather sad, and a lot of the weird stuff that we observe in Ukraine has to do with very immature, almost lazy, thinking – or more like dreaming and yearning. It comes from frustration and envy. It comes from having miserable lives. It is scary to contemplate what the reaction will be when the EU rejection and even lower living standards are finally impossible to deny. There is a chaotic and random nature to all mass movements – like Maidan – it is not at all clear-cut what they are all about and how they evolve. There is EU-yearning and hatred of elites, there is nationalism and envy, there is hatred of “Russians” and a cargo-cult like devotion to the Western “betters”. But there is also something els: a raw anger at the way things are and a willingness to try anything. This could get very interesting.

    All Russia has to do is nothing. Keep the kettle boiling by closing any avenues of escape (trade, peace, money,…). At some point it will just blow up again.

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  63. @Quartermaster
    Just more of Saker's usual bilge. If there is a war touched off by the fight between Orthodox Patriarchates, it will be Putin that does it. He's already shown himself a complete fool in Ukraine, so sending Tanks to Kyiv won't damage his reputation anymore than the earlier theft of Crimea, or the shipping of GRU officers to the Donbas has done.

    Putin has been an idiot and is doing little more than drubbing the Russian people again.

    By the by, Russia is a participant in the Minsk agreements. Those are Russian troops and equipment in the Donbas.

    I take it that the military no longer administers drug-tests for those of your rank.

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  64. US join Russia and the EU to rebuild Ukraine? Like the US helped to “rebuild” Iraq? Afghanistan? Libya? Rebuilding is a noble idea. However, simply not intentionally destroying civilian infrastructure would be best idea.

    The US has not even been rebuilding our own crumbling bridges and highways. Many cities in US have old, corroding pipes, some delivering lead-flavoured water.

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  65. […] The article was originally published at The Unz Review […]

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  66. Read More
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  67. Come on, Beckow. Assuming you are Russian (don’t know if you are) – the Ukrainians indeed have that peculiar “dreamy” quality to them, but don’t tell me that hundreds of thousands (or possibly more) of ethnic Russians have not “dreamt” about migrating to the West (even patriots). It’s just that they haven’t had the legal means to do so. In fact, many of them have done so on refugee visas (I have no idea how they pulled that off). You are all in the same pot, as much as you’d like to paint Ukrainians as particularly “needy” or “desperate”. I know that most Russians (and other EEs) prefer to live in Russia (or their respective countries, many of which are in fact much better suited for normal living than the West, some Russians have actually come back to Russia), but don’t tell me there are no Russians who don’t want the “visa free” regime. In order to get that, a re-admission treaty needs to be signed.

    And, btw, like Boris N said, the visa-free does not mean a residence or work permit. It just allows traveling without hassles. And with the current rise of inequality and the rising living costs in the West (not to even mention other obvious negatives that are widely discussed here), Slavic people should really think twice before they even try to move to Western Europe (soon it may not make any practical sense). I would welcome Ukrainians with open arms to the Baltic countries, if we had something to offer them.

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  68. Philip Owen [AKA "Soarintothesky"] says:
    @5371
    There were never actually crowds of hundreds of thousands until the revolution of indignity had triumphed and the morons could come out in safety.

    There were hundreds of thousands the weekend after the Berkut killed the the firest demonstrators (if you recall, dragging one out of hospital and beating him to death on the street monitored by CCTV). Then they went away and the agents provocateurs showed up.

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  69. Philip Owen [AKA "Soarintothesky"] says:
    @Archie1954
    Why not co opt the operation? If it is indeed a potential problem, all of the various heads of the three churches should be called to a joint meeting to prevent themselves from being used to destroy what remains of Ukraine. Surely being forewarned is being forearmed! There must be some form of echumenical orgaization within the Christian Orthodox panoply of churches that can be used to prevent this horrific situation from coming to haunt Ukraine. Even a totally separate Orthodox church could serve as a peacemaker, such as the Serbians for instance.

    Basically the Russian Orthodox are an Eastern version of the Church of England. Russia was formerly part of the Constantinople Patriarchy. However, the Tsar Ivan Grozny (Ivor the Awesome is a better modern translation than The Terrible) appointed his own Patriach and looted the monastries like his near contemporary Henry VIII in England (who was never a Protestant – Reformation came later). Ivan didn’t go as gar as Henry. He didn’t make himself Head of the Church (Henry has trained to be an Archbishop so he felt less restraint). Ivan just shut his inconvenient wife in a convent rather than worry about divorce. Both were also concerned, at a time when the idea of national identity was new, that their churches were controlled from outside the kingdom Rome/Constantinople. The parallels are very clear.

    So, there are ancient tensions between Russian Orthodoxy and the rest. The Russian Orthodox have just refused to attend a Synod called by the Greeks which every other Orthodox Church attended. Nationalist poison is strong in Russia.

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