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In my July 25th article “Zelenskii’s dilemma” I pointed out the fundamental asymmetry of the Ukrainian power configuration following Zelenskii’s crushing victory over Poroshenko: while a vast majority of the Ukrainian people clearly voted to stop the war and restore some kind of peace to the Ukraine, the real levers of power in the post-Maidan Banderastan are all held by all sorts of very powerful, if also small, minority groups including:

  1. The various “oligarchs” (Kolomoiskii, Akhmetov, etc.) and/or mobsters
  2. Arsen Avakov’s internal security forces including some “legalized” Nazi death squads
  3. The various non-official Nazi deathsquads (Parubii)
  4. The various western intelligence agencies who run various groups inside the Ukraine
  5. The various western financial/political sponsors who run various groups inside the Ukraine
  6. The so-called “Sorosites” (соросята) i.e. Soros and Soros-like sponsored political figures
  7. The many folks who want to milk the Ukraine down to the last drop of Ukrainian blood and then run

These various groups all acted in unison, at least originally, during and after the Euromaidan. This has now dramatically changed and these groups are now all fighting each other. This is what always happens when things begin to turn south and the remaining loot shrinks with every passing day,

Whether Zelenskii ever had a chance to use the strong mandate he received from the people to take the real power back from these groups or not is now a moot point: It did not happen and the first weeks of Zelenskii’s presidency clearly showed that Zelenskii was, indeed, in “free fall“: instead of becoming a “Ukrainian Putin” Zelenskii became a “Ukrainian Trump” – a weak and, frankly, clueless leader, completely outside his normal element, whose only “policy” towards all the various extremist minorities was to try to appease them, then appease them some more, and then even more than that. As a result, a lot of Ukrainians are already speaking about “Ze” being little more than a “Poroshenko 2.0”. More importantly, pretty much everybody is frustrated and even angry at Zelenskii whose popularity is steadily declining.

Factors beyond “Ze’s” control:

Still, it would be an oversimplification to bring it all down to Zelenskii’s total lack of experience in politics. There are objective factors which make any kind of resolution of the Ukrainian problem very complicated, even for a very strong and principled leader. Here are some of them.

1. The Ukraine is a completely artificial country composed of no less than 4 different regions: the western Ukraine (Lvov), the southern Ukraine (Odessa, Nikolaev), the eastern Ukraine (Donbass) and the north-central Ukraine (Kiev). It is important to stress here that these regions do not have well-defined borders so one map might show them quite differently from another one. Here are three examples to illustrate this point:

2. The concept of an “independent Ukraine” has always been based on strong ideological founding myths. For example, the expression “independent Ukraine” is a contradiction in terms since in order to be a “ukraine” – that is a frontier/border region, you need to be “the ukraine of something”, of some other entity, like say “Serbian Krajina in Croatia” or the “Siberian Ukraine” in Siberia. These myths include all the silly stuff we have already heard (the ancient “Ukrs” built the pyramids, spoke proto-Sanskrit, taught Buddha, dug the Black Sea, came from Mars, were mentioned by Herodotus [who himself was Ukrainian] etc. etc. etc.) but also a few absolutely crucial recent founding myths. including:

  • The Euromaidan was a “revolution for dignity” which was supported by the vast majority of the people of the Ukraine. All the shots that day were fired by “Russian agents”.
  • The war in the East was started when Russian agents seized official buildings and guns leading to a “covert invasion” (whatever that means) of the Russian armed forces.
  • The so-called “LDNR” leaders are Russian FSB agents, mafia thugs and terrorists who oppress the local population which does not support them.
  • The Ukrainian armed forces defeated the “Russian hordes” and successfully stopped “Putin” who was planning to invade the entire Ukraine. The Russians still have such plans and are ready to strike.
  • The new and improved Ukrainian armed forces are ready to liberate every inch of Ukrainian land.
  • The White European Ukraine stands ready to defend Europe against the Russian Asiatic hordes threatening it.
  • The “entire world” (no less!!) is united against Russia in support of the Ukraine.
  • The Donbass and Crimea will be liberated from the Russian invaders and their local collaborators who will all be carefully interrogated in special filtration camps and all the disloyal elements will be eliminated.
This gentlemen is, according to Ukronazi propaganda, a “defender of Europe from the Russia Asiatic hordes”
This gentlemen is, according to Ukronazi propaganda, a “defender of Europe from the Russia Asiatic hordes”

3. Now this set of ideological imperatives makes for a very easy to understand “program” for low-IQ wannabe storm-troopers, but it makes for an insurmountable set of obstacles to the Minsk Agreements or the Steinmeier Formula (which is simply an explication of the terms of the Minsk Agreements). The fact that it was “their” President (Poroshenko) who gave his approval to both of these makes no difference to the nationalists. The main psychological/ideological problem is that the Minsk Agreements and the Steinmeier Formula both obligate the regime in Kiev to negotiate directly with the leaders of the LDNR. So far, nobody in the powerful minorities mentioned above is ready for such a compromise. Why? Simply because IF the government in Kiev finally agrees to talk with the Novorussians then the entire recent ideological basis for the Euromaidan (mentioned above) comes tumbling down. IF the LDNR leaders are not Russian agents and terrorists, then they represent the people of Novorussia and if the people of Novorussia have elected these people, then it is the people of Novorussia who want nothing to do with the ugly “Banderastan” which the AngloZionists and the Ukronazis attempted to impose upon the people of the Ukraine in a bloody (and, not to mention, totally illegal) coup.

The Russian narrative is winning

Another major problem for Zelenskii are two competing narratives: the Ukronazi one and, shall we say, the “Russian” one. I have outlined the Ukronazi one just above and now I will mention the competing Russian one which goes something like this:

  • The Euromaidan was a completely illegal violent coup against the democratically elected President of the Ukraine, whose legitimacy nobody contested, least of all the countries which served as mediators between Poroshenko and the rioters and who betrayed their word in less than 24 hours (a kind of a record for western politicians and promises of support!).
  • All, repeat, ALL the steps taken to sever crucial economic and cultural links between Russia and the Ukraine were decided upon by Ukrainian leaders, never by Russia who only replied symmetrically when needed.
  • Even with international sanctions directed at her, Russia successfully survived both the severance of ties with the Ukraine and the AngloZionist attempts at hurting the Russian economy. In contrast, severing economic ties with Russia was a death-sentence for the Ukrainian economy which has now become completely deindustrialized.
  • Now that the Ukraine has been completely deindustrialized, all she can export are either people or land/soil. In the case of people, we are talking primarily about cheap manual labor and prostitutes to the West and engineers and technical specialists towards Russia (especially engineers and scientists of the now defunct, but formerly very powerful, Ukrainian military industrial complex). In terms of land/soil, the party “servant of the people” is now advocating a new law which will do to Ukrainian land/soil what the famous “vouchers” did to the Soviet economy: put it all in the hands of crooks and billionaires.
  • Crimea is gone and nothing will ever change that, least of all an attempt by Kiev to reconquer Crimea by force (Crimea is currently one of the most defended spots on the planet).
  • While some western politicians simply cannot make a mea culpa and admit that they completely misread, misunderstood and mismanaged the entire Ukrainian crisis, most folks in the West are already seeing a very simple sentence written on their mental walls: the Ukraine is a dangerous failed state with only one thing left to plunder: the Ukrainian soil. In contrast, Europe really needs Russia on all levels, from energy to defense. This is especially true now that Russia and China are embarking on truly gigantic common projects.
  • Russia is now strong enough to take on a combined attack of NATO forces. The LDNR forces are smaller than the Ukrainian military, but much better trained, commanded, equipped and supported and they are most likely to defeat any Ukronazi attack. Still, should a Ukrainian attack be successful and the future of the LDNR be at risk, Russia could stop any such invasion without even deploying ground forces into Novorussia.

For Zelenskii or, for that matter, for any other Ukrainian leader the above contradictions are unsolvable and every step taken in a direction of pragmatism, no matter how small (and ALL his steps so far have been small), gets an immediate reaction of outrage and threats by the hardcore Nazis of Poroshenko & Co.

The subtle Ukronazi message to “Ze”
The subtle Ukronazi message to “Ze”

Some of the threats made by these Ukronazis are dead serious and the only person who, as of now, kinda can keep the Ukrainian version of the Rwandan “Interahamwe” under control would probably be Arsen Avakov, but since he himself is a hardcore Nazi nutcase, his attitude is ambiguous and unpredictable. He probably has more firepower than anybody else, but he was a pure “Porokhobot” (Poroshenko-robot) who, in many ways, controlled Poroshenko more than Poroshenko controlled him. The best move for Zelenskii would be to arrest the whole lot of them overnight (Poroshenko himself, but also Avakov, Parubii, Iarosh, Farion, Liashko, Tiagnibok, etc.) and place a man he totally trusts as Minister of the Interior. Next, Zelenskii should either travel to Donetsk or, at least, meet with the leaders of the LDNR and work with them to implement the Minsk Agreements. That would alienate the Ukronazis for sure, but it would give Zelenskii a lot of popular support.

Needless to say, that is not going to happen. While Zelenskii’s puppet master Kolomoiskii would love to stick this entire gang in jail and replace them with his own men, it is an open secret that powerful interest groups in the US have told Zelenskii “don’t you dare touch them”. Which is fine, except that this also means “don’t you dare change their political course either”.

So what might happen next?

ORDER IT NOW

The personal future of Poroshenko and his Ukronazis will be decided in the US. If Trump prevails over the Clinton-Biden gang, then there is a tiny theoretical chance that a joint “go ahead” between the US and Russia could give Zelenskii the go-ahead to begin denazifying the Ukraine. I find this hypothesis most unlikely. Failing that, Russia will embark on a policy of unilateral actions and decisions. What might these be?

To answer that we need to look at Russia’s real conditions (as opposed to the official ones). They are pretty straightforward:

  1. Crimea is Russian forever
  2. Kiev will not be allowed to seize Novorussia by force
  3. The Ukraine will never be allowed to join NATO
  4. Russia will not pay alone for the reconstruction costs of the Ukraine
  5. Russia can live with a unitary, but confederated, Ukraine
  6. Russia can also live with whatever is left following a breakup of the Ukraine
  7. Unless a viable solution is found, and in a reasonable time frame, Russia can, and will, recognize the LDNR and even allow it to re-join Russia (under what kind of status legally is yet to be determined as there are several possible options here)

They first obvious key question here is this: can the AngloZionist Empire do anything to prevent the Russians from achieving their goals as outlined above?

My personal answer is no, the Empire does not have the means to impose something different from what Russia wants, at least not in the Ukraine. This is not only because of Putin vs the clueless western leaders, it is simply that the Russians have a huge historical and geographical advantage in the Ukraine over any combination of western powers. True, Russia did pathetically drop the ball, but things are now clearly changing and Russia is now in a rather enviable position in which she can rely mostly on unilateral actions (such as handing out Russian passports) while letting the Ukronazi occupied Ukraine slowly destroy itself.

So what happens if nothing happens?

How do you say “Lasciate ogni speranza, o voi che entrate” in Ukrainian?

And since a (currently entirely theoretical) “united West” can’t do anything to prevent Russia from reaching one of the outcomes acceptable to her, neither can any Ukrainian President, Zelenskii or other.

Right now, the supporters of a Banderastan are going through the famous Kübler-Ross stages of griefs: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance: currently, most of them are zig-zagging between bargaining and depression; acceptance is still far beyond their – very near – horizon. Except that Zelenskii has nothing left to bargain with.

The prospects for the future of the Ukraine are rather grim, at least in the short to mid term. What will actually happen is impossible to predict (it is much easier to say what will not happen), but here are a few options I find credible:

A collapse of the central authority followed by a surge in violence and a break-up of the rump-Ukraine into some entity in the West. The south will probably seek quasi-independence to make business with Russia while most of the violence will take place in the north-central region which is very polarized and only silent because of the fear of the SBU and/or Nazi deathsquads. As soon as Kiev loses control, these regions are likely to rise up. If that happens the current line-of-contact will become an international border between the LDNR and the rest of the Ukraine. Most UN members will not recognize the LDNR (fear of Uncle Shmuel) but one will: Russia. And that will be the end of the “independent Ukraine” as we know it.

I would never exclude a last minute patriotic coup or, even more likely, counter-coup by Ukrainian patriots in the armed forces, not necessarily one supported by Moscow, but one which will at least replace frankly rather demented Ukronazis with more pragmatic people. There are plenty of such people in the Ukraine, some are known and some are less known. If I were “Ze” I would keep an eye on Vadim Rabinovich, not because he is my personal ideal candidate, but because he is very smart and very well connected. He is not at all popular in the Ukraine, but he has strong support in the West and in Israel. Check out this rather interesting Wikipedia article on Rabinovich and see why he is a typical “мутный типчик” (roughly, an “unclear” guy – meaning somebody you would suspect of being a crook). He is unlikely to ever be elected by the people. But he, or somebody like him, might make a good “anti-Nazi” front-figure for a coup (or counter-coup) should the need for such a figure become useful to the Empire. By the way, the Kremlin’s reaction to a Rabinovich (or similar) led coup (or counter-coup) would be just like when Iulia Timoshenko came to power: they will work with any person who is a pragmatist and who can deliver on promises.

Finally, a war in the East is always, and by definition, a possibility for as long as a rabidly russophobic regime is in power in Kiev. From a purely military point of view, any Ukrainian attack against the LDNR would be suicidal: either the Novorussians will take care of the attacking force, or the Russians will. But either way, the Ukrainian attacking force will be destroyed. From a political point of view, however, such an attack might make sense simply because this would be a gigantic distraction allowing all the Nazi rats to leave the sinking ship and quietly slip away. Finally, there is no doubt that the Neocons have been dreaming of a (real, not fictional) Russian attack as a way to shock Europe back into total submission to Uncle Shmuel. This is also why I believe that a Russian counter-attack on Ukrainian forces might be limited to long range strikes (kinetic and electronic) and the imposition of a no-fly zone.

Conclusion Russia can wait, the Ukraine cannot

It’s really that simple. In fact, time was always on the Russian side here, even if not necessarily on the side of the people of Novorussia who have suffered through the horrors of this war. However, it appears now that the Novorussians have been successful in their efforts to turn a hodgepodge of more or less trained militias into a credible and disciplined military force capable of tactical and operational actions, in other words, capable of dangerous counter-attacks. Finally, Russian policies towards the rump-Ukraine and Novorussia are now all unilateral in nature, which gives Russia a great deal of flexibility.

With a weak leader like “Ze” the Ukraine looks stuck in the no man’s land somewhere between denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. The faster the Ukrainian leaders get to the “acceptance” phase, the less the people of the Ukraine will have to suffer (not that anybody in the Ukronazi leadership cares about the common people).

At the end of all arguments and theories, there is a crucial fact which cannot be ignored: the Euromaidan Revolution (which is what the coup against Yanukovich and the subsequent civil war in the Donbass are) has failed. In fact, it was stillborn from Day1 being built on an ideology which most Ukrainians did not share. Furthermore, this revolution alienated the most productive and richest parts of the Ukraine: the Donbass and Crimea. Next, the Urkonazi regime was soundly defeated by the Novorussian insurgents not once, but twice. Finally, by severing all economic ties with Russia, the independent Ukraine basically committed seppuku. None of that can be reversed or easily fixed.

As always, in the battle between ideology and reality the latter prevailed. The outcome of this struggle between ideology and reality was never in doubt, at least not for rational, pragmatic, people, and so the blood and tears of all those who needlessly died, were maimed or had to become refugees will forever remain on the consciences of those who started this “revolutionary fire”: the leaders of the united West.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. Rahan says:

    “мутный типчик” = murky character, is what I’d propose as a translation.

  2. Alfred says:

    Thank you for a rational article about Ukraine. The sad thing is that it might take years to reach the “acceptance” phase.

    It would take someone like Hitler to clean out the stables. Arrest is not a viable option as they will bribe their way out. These people need to be put down like rabid dogs. That is the only way to put an end to their mischief and it would be a deterrent to their replacements.

    Personally, I suspect that the Ukraine is being deliberately depopulated to make way for waves of “refugees” from Israel. Another country that is still in the “denial” phase. Its military and political leaders know full-well that their strategic aims have all failed. The boot is now firmly on the other foot.

    I suspect that Crimea was their preferred destination and hence the massive non-stop propaganda against Russia on that score. To give you an idea of how ridiculous it has all become, the UK no longer accepts medical degrees awarded by universities in Crimea.

    • Disagree: Malacaay
  3. bob sykes says:

    There are reports this morning (11/14) that Kolomoiskii is proposing talks with Putin. This seems a promising development, if true.

    Does the Saker have a comment?

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @AnonFromTN
  4. AWM says:

    Is it not possible to have an article on Ukraine without all the [email protected] references?
    Might have been a non-biased article, but many of us will never know, I would imagine it to be a totally pro-Russia writing, but I refuse to read any further after the [email protected] references.

    • Agree: Curmudgeon, Mr. Hack
  5. It is always a relief when reality prevails over ideology, as The Saker says. And that will have to continue if catastrophic war, wrought from far afield, is to be avoided.
    https://www.ghostsofhistory.wordpress.com/

  6. @Alfred

    Oh no, if one of my kids earns a medical degree in Crimea, they won’t even allowed to practice medicine in the Islamist African-Paki-Arab-Indian shithole known as formerly-great formerly-Britain. Such a loss.

    Vat a Schande.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  7. Kateryna says:

    It’s “Ukraine”, not “the Ukraine”.

  8. Roman Dmowski, one of the creators of independent Poland, wrote in 1931 about Ukraine:
    http://www.mysl-polska.pl/node/164

  9. @Alfred

    I suspect that the Ukraine is being deliberately depopulated to make way for waves of “refugees” from Israel.

    You got that right – what it’s all about is building a New Khazaria. But they’re neither giving up on their Greater Israel project between the two rivers, and hence more wars, conflict and chaos to drive out the native Arabs from the Middle East.

    I suspect that Crimea was their preferred destination and hence the massive non-stop propaganda against Russia on that score.

    Crimea was to be the crown jewel of this New Khazaria, and the Khazars are not giving up on it, nor on other regions of the Caucasus that are to be part of this new Hebrew empire. The Jews are patient; they waited for thousands of years to get back Israel, and now they want Khazaria too. Their appetites are insatiable, as after all they want the whole world in the end. No? The whole world is Zion to them.

    • Agree: Z-man
    • Replies: @Z-man
    , @Malacaay
  10. Hegar says:

    Saker, can you please stop writing the Ukraine? You follow an old habit that was for some reason considered intellectual. In the past some journalists would also write “the Albania,” “the Brazil” and “the Congo”. It’s Albania, Brazil and Congo, and Ukraine.

    Most people who add “the” do it just once for show. You do it close to thirty times.

  11. ‘Murka in boundless greed seizes Ukraine,
    “Vital US national interest.”
    US now run by the likes of Strain,
    ‘Nother hide to post in Pinterest.

  12. TheJester says:
    @Kateryna

    Much To Do About Nothing … Maybe

    It’s not “The Netherlands” … it’s “Netherlands”! Right?

    I’m sorry. My politically correct spellchecker keeps trying to put a “the” in front of “Netherlands” (but it does not do so for the “Ukraine”). I also understand that the Netherlands uses “The Netherlands” in its tourist advertisements. They should know better. Right?

    Besides, I always thought that “The Netherlands” meant “The Low Countries” or “The Low Lands”. Hence, like the United States, the Netherlands is not an entity but a multiplicity of (plural) historical entities now considered unitary.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Countries

    “The Netherlands” aside, if “Ukraine” means border area, frontier area, or march, then calling it “THE border area” would be appropriate. Right?

    We have had similar historical arguments over “the United States IS” versus “the United States ARE”. We also have a predilection to put “the” in front of the United States. Which is appropriate?

    “The United States is going to hell in a basket!” versus “United States is going to hell in a basket!” or, “The Ukraine is going to hell in a basket!” versus “Ukraine is going to hell in a basket!”

    I vote for the historical usages: THE United States IS … THE Netherlands IS … and THE Ukraine IS.

    The real issue, I think, is that some are wanting to reconstrue the Ukraine as a stand-alone national entity rather than a historical march of the Russian Empire. This is a recent political development. The former would, I think, be part of the argument that Russia STOLE “the Crimea” (there we go again) from the Ukraine. The latter would support that there is a lot still to sort out regarding what belongs to whom in the historical march of the Russian Empire.

    There is, of course, always the option to change the name of the Kievian march to something else.

    How about “Kievistan”?

    • Disagree: Malacaay
  13. @AWM

    They certainly aren’t National Socialists, and arguably not nationalists. Nationalists are open to what is best for “the nation” regardless of where it lies on the political spectrum. Since they don’t consider the people in Donbas to be part of “the nation”, that means, if anything, they are useful idiots of Zionism.

    • Replies: @tolemo
    , @Malacaay
  14. tolemo says:
    @TheJester

    That would be Kyivistan!…LoL

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  15. Seraphim says:
    @TheJester

    I can’t refrain to quote my own jest made on another post:

    What is an ‘Ukrainian’?
    “He’s a real nowhere man
    Sitting in his nowhere land
    Making all his nowhere plans for nobody”

    Actually, a borderland (as ‘Ukraina’ was) is a ‘no man’s land’.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  16. @Kateryna

    This matter has been brought up in the comment threads of other articles. I’ve been told that this change to just “Ukraine” was initiated by the post-coup government.

    If The Saker chooses to write “the Ukraine”, he may certainly do that. I’m sure he has his reasons.

  17. @TheJester

    Your spell checker may have added “the” to Ukraine at one point in time. Grammar is not immune to political revision.

  18. Alfred says:
    @bob sykes

    Kolomoiskii is the real hidden owner/controller of the company that bribed the Bidens. He has a finger in lots of pies. His pretense to leaning towards Russia is his way to try to get the Americans to stop attempts to get at the many millions that he stole from his own Ukrainians bank – fake loans to his companies.

    Of course, the Russians understand all of that. This theater is aimed at the Americans – not at the Russians. 🙂

    Igor Kolomoisky Makes A Mistake, And The New York Times Does What It Always Does

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  19. @Kateryna

    It’s “the Ukraine”, not “Ukraine”.

    • Agree: Alfred
  20. Nodwink says:

    Maybe they should import 20 million Muslims from Pakistan, that will fix everything.

    • Replies: @Marshall Lentini
  21. @Alfred

    is his way to try to get the Americans to stop attempts to get at the many millions that he stole from his own Ukrainians bank – fake loans to his companies.

    This is just one of many considerations, in the end, with Ukraine’s failure as a state, which is in progress, Benya knows that some people from FSB and FSO are looking at him. Of course, he needs to be very on time to make a run to Israel’s safety or, for that matter, simply remain there.

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  22. For the Ukrainian state to break up, there need to be some forces interested in a break-up. You won’t find such forces inside the Ukraine.

    What is Ukrainian South-East? In pure political terms, “South-East” is a bunch of oligarchs, who are all integrated into Ukrainian system, and have no reason to seek independence from Kiev, especially if it means getting slapped with Western sanctions.

    Even the Kremlin doesn’t show much interest in breaking up the Ukraine, so why the hell would it break up?

    It’s worth pointing out that the so-called “Novorossia movement” started out as Akhmetov’s project to win concessions from new Kiev regime. It was then quickly hijacked by Strelkov, a man who actually wanted to break up the Ukraine, and it is because of Strelkov, that Donetsk and Lugansk are now de-facto independent. Without similar figures to lead secessionist movements elsewhere in the Ukraine, this break-up that Saker keeps talking about will never happen.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  23. Eagle Eye says:
    @Hegar

    Saker, can you please stop writing the Ukraine? You follow an old habit …

    If you had read the article, you would have seen this:

    For example, the expression “independent Ukraine” is a contradiction in terms since in order to be a “ukraine” – that is a frontier/border region, you need to be “the ukraine of something”, of some other entity, like say “Serbian Krajina in Croatia” or the “Siberian Ukraine” in Siberia.

    The piece explains in detail why the Ukraine (i.e. the border region) is not a united, organic country.

    In English, some country names take the definite article if the name has a specific meaning, e.g. “the Netherlands,” or is derived from another geographic name, hence “the Gambia” along the Gambia River, “the Congo” etc. Other countries’ names were traditionally understood as the designation of regions. For example, the Sudan is officially the Republic of the Sudan.

    In the original Russian and Ukrainian, there are no articles at all.

    • Agree: chris
    • Replies: @chris
    , @Malacaay
  24. AP says:
    @TheJester

    “The Netherlands” aside, if “Ukraine” means border area, frontier area, or march, then calling it “THE border area” would be appropriate. Right?

    Denmark literally has march in the name but is not called “the Denmark” in English.

    the Ukraine as a stand-alone national entity rather than a historical march of the Russian Empire.

    Ukraine was historically a march of Poland for centuries before it was a historical march of Russia.

    • Replies: @Alfred
  25. Mr. Hack says:

    Putler must really want Ukraine to fall back under his control – seems like every other article here at UNZ is devoted to a Ukrainiain topic (but they’re all one and the same taken from the Moscow playbook). Too bad the fool ever lost control of Ukraine in the first place (he obviously backed the wrong horse when he courted Yanukovych). All of Ukraine’s doomsayers have been crying about Ukraine’s demise for the lat 25 years, yet the fact is that it’ s getting stronger and stronger every year, and Russia is loathe to attack it again. One more thread to toss into the “made for Saker’s Suckers” wastebasket.

    • LOL: Alfred
    • Troll: bluedog
    • Replies: @Epigon
    , @Arioch
  26. Twenty-one occurrences of “Nazi”.

  27. @Nodwink

    Do you doubt it’ll come to that? Krakow is on its way to becoming Little Bombay. Gotta have that “tech”.

  28. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I didn’t think that even a gypsy had such a short memory as you? I answered all of these questions for you about a week ago? What’s the matter, too much tuica on the brain?

    “What is a Ukrainian”?

    Why he’s a citizen of a country called Ukraine who want a better future for himelf and his children. He’s not really that much different from most human beings around the planet. Here take a look:

    They come from all walks of life, doctors, teachers, construction workers, programmers, students, retirees, clergymen, men, women children etc; etc; Your deep Ukrainaphobia doesn’t mesh well with your phoney Christian veneer that you try so hard to cultivate. You’re really a very pathetic, creepy individual. 🙁

    • LOL: bluedog
    • Replies: @Z-man
    , @Beckow
    , @Seraphim
  29. I have no idea why interventionists thought this would work. But it sounded mighty depressing.

    The EU was all on board with this, it’s in their region, According to them they need immigrants.

    Some of my favorites students and lab assistants, I think were from the Ukraine — i only hope they are safe and well.

    What a mess. A needless mess.

  30. Biff says:

    , yet the fact is that it’ s getting stronger and stronger every year,

    While the currency is used to boil rice.

  31. How 98% of Americans feel about the Ukraine BS:

    • Replies: @Z-man
    , @Skeptikal
  32. chris says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Excellent clarification, thanks!

  33. Liza says:
    @TheJester

    It was “the” Ukraine before it became a legal, political entity, a recognized state with defined borders, right or wrong, and with or without your approval. The various tribes in old “the” Ukraine (disconnected tribal regions attached to other powers and therefore considered borderlands) felt they had enough in common linguistically and culturally to want to form a proper country.

    The Ukraine is a completely artificial country composed of no less than 4 different regions

    I don’t know of a country anywhere that isn’t a Mulligan’s stew – USA, Russia, England, Greece, etc. and therefore “completely artificial”. Each of these countries is as inorganic and disunited as Ukraine, or worse, made up as they are of various racial and ethnic groups who don’t identify with each other.

    The USA and Ukraine are different cases. USA was founded as “the United States of America” according to the Articles of Confederation.

    Look, Mr. Saker, if you are hostile to Ukraine or The Ukraine and all its citizens who are culturally and ethnically Ukrainian by their own definition, that is okay by me. You really should come right out and say so, however.

    • Replies: @Alfred
    , @renfro
  34. Antares says:

    Wikipedia:

    In 1993 the Ukrainian government explicitly requested that the article be dropped,[29] and use of “Ukraine” without the definite article has since become commonplace in journalism and diplomacy

    I have the impression that The Ukraine means that it is part of something else while Ukraine means that it is an independent entity. So maybe the Saker expresses his wishes with the prefixed article.

    btw. Dutch people write “Nederland” in single and without any article. It is the continuation of the seven provinces (now twelve). Is or Are? That is a matter of style. Together with overseas territories (Antillen) it is part of the Kingdom of the Netherlands.

  35. Antares says:
    @Alfred

    I had the same thoughts. Zelenskii should show a similar coffin with the text “This one is still empty” and then start rounding up the terrorists. He finally has a good excuse.

  36. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    Thank you Saker and Unz for the very interesting article .

    I wonder what has been the role of Germany in the ucrainian disaster . Being the germans big defecators I have the feeling , just the suspiction , that they contributed to the ucranian disaster out of their genetic drang nach osten nordic greed , is that right ?

    Anyway since the ucranian disaster the cohesion of the EU is going going down . Germany which was gifted with the german reunification , is less and less trusted spetially in south Europe , and even less in the EU far west , in England which is going out of the EU .

    Most of the people in the EU would like to keep collaborating with the US , of course , but also with Russia and with the rest of the world . Most of the people in the UE are scared of the dark forces operating in Ucrania trying to provoque a war with Russia .

    As a curiosity in 1945 the jewery asked Stalin to give Crimea to the jews , Stalin refused .
    https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-news-and-politics/164673/crimea-as-jewish-homeland

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Arioch
  37. Z-man says:
    @Commentator Mike

    I said this tongue in cheek somewhere else (Steven F. Cohen article) but it does make sense.

    Hey I have an idea, we can give the Jooz the land equivalent of the 1947 partition plan of Palestine in Ukraine. That’s it! Case closed. But they have to cede all of Palestine to the Arabs.
    Of course this will never happen but it’s a damn good idea.

    I gotta another one for you. Squeeze them into a ‘greater Moldova’. They’ll have to deal with angry Russians, Ukrainians and Romanians. I love it!!!

  38. Z-man says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Do you work for Victoria Nudleman?
    Brahahaaaa!

  39. awry says:

    The stupid name-calling like the term “ukronazi” makes this article look like a rant like North Korean communiques or the ravings of some Arab despot’s propagandist. It is not better than calling “The Saker” a “Moskal”, “Sovok” or “Putler’s stooge” etc. He should keep this lingo to directly “debating” “Ukronazis” on twitter or youtube commentst etc. not for an article that is supposed to be a serious analysis.
    I understand that it is hard for a Russian nationalist to accept that the majority of Ukrainians don’t want to belong to their dream Russkiy Mir, they were seduced by the West, which is more attractive with all its failings, because mostly of simple materialistic reasons. Ukrainians happily go to EU countries that now allow them in as guest workers. The fact, like it or not that majority of them chose the West over Russkiy Mir despite being very close to Russians in culture, language, history etc. He is still in the first stage of grief it seems.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  40. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Touching. (Really, no sarcasm implied.)

    All in all, Ukrainians are probably way above average in most human characteristics. The area of Ukraine is by planetary standards one of the best available: arable land, great rivers, Black see, pleasant and liveable.

    But it is 2019 and life in Ukraine is barely better than it was 25-50 years ago, population has actually dropped from its peak in early 1990’s. Millions of Ukrainians live abroad (I know some of them) and have – to be polite – at best an ambivalent attitude towards their homeland. Almost all of them prefer to be somewhere else, even to become someone else.

    Now why is that? A normal society would have enough introspection to discuss this, to look for answers. Throwing a temper-tantrum on a big square in Kiev every few years is not looking for a solution. That is escapism, Orange-this, Maidan-that, ‘Russians bad’, ‘we are going West’, ‘golden toilets’, and always ‘Stalin did it’.

    I don’t agree with the facile name-calling that sees Nazis everywhere and exaggerates throw-away symbolism. But Ukraine has not been functioning and it can’t go like this much longer. Not because it will collapse, it won’t, but because during an era of general prosperity Ukraine can’t be a unstable exception (oh, I get it, they are better than Moldova, good for them.)

    Rebellions against geography are doomed. Projecting one’s personal frustrations on external enemies (Kremlin!) has never worked. Ukraine needs rationality – accepting that they will not be in EU, that attempting to join Nato would destroy Ukraine, and that they can’t beat Russia in a war. And following advise of half-mad and half-ignorant well-wishers from Washington or Brussels is a road to ruin. Nulands, Bidens and Tusks will never live in Ukraine, they really deeply don’t care about it. They have no skin in that game, it is just entertainment for them.

    Or alternatively you can pray that Russia collapses – good luck waiting for that.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  41. Beckow says:
    @Anon

    ….genetic drang nach osten nordic greed

    There is not much ‘drang’ left in Germany, so I think this is mostly fingers on the map post dinner empty talk.

    …in 1945 the jewery asked Stalin to give Crimea to the jews , Stalin refused

    Crimea is a jewel, but has one big problem: not enough water. But that’s also true about Izrael, maybe there is a deep genetic memory of coming out of a desert environment.

    During WWII, Germany actually established settlements in Crimea. Think about it: there is a massive war, you have like 1-2 years, short on transport and resources, and you start sending settlers to Crimea – that’s how much drang-nach-osten types wanted it. And the Turks, etc… This must be driving them absolutely nuts.

    • Replies: @Anon
  42. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Well , ask the greeks if there is some drang left in Germany , ask the italians ,the spanish, the portuguese …. ask all the ossies ……

  43. I would like to point out that the richest man in Ukraine is a Muslim and the president is a Jew… what do “the salt of the earth” orthodox Christians have, besides being besieged by drudgery, corruption and outsiders? It’s a shame!

  44. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:

    The mexicans are able to make fun of themselves , that`s a good thing . They have a joke which aplies also to Ukraina ( and other countries )

    The mexicans say : when God created Mexico He gave Mexico everything ; land , mountains , plains , tropical forests , deserts , two oceans , agriculture , gold , silver , oil ……. then God saw how beautiful and perfect Mexico was and He though that He should also give something bad to the country to prevent the sin of pride , and then he populated Mexico with pure pendejos ,( idiots ) .

    The same aplies to Ukraina . pure pendejos .

    • Replies: @Beckow
  45. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Of course Ukraine can’t blame all of its problems on outside forces, but only a fool would believe that having a war (whatever you want to call it, “proxy” or whatever) within a country is not going to hinder its economic development. Positive outside influence into Ukraine’s internal development in the form of investments and economic development is being curtailed due to foreign investments being delayed until the war in the east is resolved. But this of course, was one of the reasons that Russia invaded Ukraine in the first place, to arrest its economic development and create a chaotic situations to begin with. Russia has never been able to lead with a carrot, but only with a stick. 🙁

    Russia is susceptible to collapse more so than many eoconomies around the worrld. Since the West changed the dynamics of the energy game around the world what happened to Russia’s economy? It’s learned to better feed itself, and that’s about it. One more jolt like in 2014, and Russia will be in another severe economic recession. It’s almost 2020, where are Russia’s automobiles, televisions, medical equipment, computers, pharmaceuticals etc; within the world markeplace?. I still only see Russian sunflower oil and buckwheat on the counters of the stores in my city?

    • Replies: @Beckow
    , @Arioch
  46. Skeptikal says:
    @AWM

    “Is it not possible to have an article on Ukraine without all the [email protected] references?

    If you want a decent analysis of current events in the Ukraine, which is what The Saker provides, I guess you’ll just have to put up with his terminology.

    The world won’t miss a thing if Curmudgeon or AWM goes off in a huff, to sit on his toilet and read the “one joke per dump” volume lodged on the tank and stops reading The Saker’s very thorough analysis as a protest action!

  47. Beckow says:
    @Anon

    My experience is that Ukrainians individually are far from being pendejos. But they are unable to act as a group or as a nation. (Well, they ‘act’, but it mostly somehow fails.)

    Maybe it is the relative shallow and heterogenous history of Ukraine. Or – and this is what I have observed – a fundamental inner disloyalty to the Ukraine as a homeland. When one observes the assorted Porkys, Timoshenkas, Yanuks, the oligarchs, but also the crowds on Maidan, I get a sense that they are all about to leave Ukraine or are thinking about leaving. Societies can’t be built with one foot always at the airport, or in an old car in a 5-km column waiting on the border of Poland. Or Russia.

    • Replies: @Anon
  48. GMC says:

    Another good article – thanks – Yep, the US/EU NWO is not going to let their “West Ukraine Isis” battalions and intel gang lose their funding , arms trafficking ops, or terrorist reputation. This is a no win situation in Ukraine and the West knows it – Even if NovoRossiya gets some independence, the Ukraine Isis will/can reek havoc and murder for a long time along the border. The modern Cheka { Ukraine Isis } has been modified for the security of the new Farmland owners – Monsanto, Cargill, DuPont and the rest of the Globalist Corporations and their ports close to Odecca.

  49. One point of contention since it wasn’t made clear in this article – Novorussia consists of Luhansk and Donetsk, but not Kharkov. While Kharkov has more Russians than most other provinces of Ukraine do, it does not have a plurality like Donetsk and Luhansk.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  50. Skeptikal says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Tucker nails it—with humor, to boot.

    His ratings must be sky-high, because otherwise I cannot imagine why Fox would allow him to continue to use their network as a medium to broadcast common sense.

    Of course the Dems are making it so easy.
    Schiff, Kent, Taylor, Yanovitch—what a pathetic, nauseating crew.

  51. Epigon says:
    @Mr. Hack

    All of Ukraine’s doomsayers have been crying about Ukraine’s demise for the lat 25 years, yet the fact is that it’ s getting stronger and stronger every year,

    USA diaspora keeps on delivering.

    Shoutout to quarter/half Poles USA citizens LARPing as Ukrainian patriots in the comments.

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
  52. Skeptikal says:
    @Kateryna

    The names of many regions and nations are preceded with “the.”
    For example, it is “the dismal swamp,” not “Dismal Swamp.”

    Not to mention “The Hague”; “the Bronx.”

    This is especially in other languages’ country names.

    E.g, in German, die Schweiz, der Liban, die Tschechei, etc.

    English has a predilection, esp. US English and especially recently, to drop the definite article (“the”).
    It used to be “the CIA.” Now it is (in many newspapers, etc.) just “CIA.”
    It used to be “the FBI.” Now it is just “FBI.”
    I think this dropping of articles sounds terrible.
    Makes everything sound like Russian, which has no articles.
    Heaven forfend!
    Thus, retaining articles is actually patriotic and anti-Russian!
    It’s “the Ukraine.”

    P.S. It is “the Crimea.”

  53. The Ukraine is under the control of satanic zionists who are willing to sacrifice the population of the Ukraine in a war with Russia as long as no zionists are involved, typical zionist deal, just like the mideast, where the zionists keep the wars going as long as Americans and Arabs are dying and zionists can watch and cheer from the sidelines!

  54. Skeptikal says:
    @Hegar

    Hegar:
    *The* Saker is not going to say “Ukraine” to please you!
    Of course many in the Ukraine are trying to make a statement by dropping “the” from the name.
    Please note: “the USSR”; “the UK”; “the United States”; “the Ukraine.”

    HTH!!

  55. Alfred says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Even the Kremlin doesn’t show much interest in breaking up the Ukraine, so why the hell would it break up?

    Follow the money my friend!

    Some provinces send much more money to Kiev then they get back in “services”. So long as more loans from the EU, The USA and the IMF were forthcoming, that situation was not too bad. Now, the spigot is being closed. Hence the sad face of Mr Z when he met Trump in Washington.

    This means that the provinces that are losing most from this internal transfer are going to be strongly motivated to stop sending money to Kiev. Kiev will lose control and that will fragment the country.

    The Donbass was a big contributor to Kiev and got little in return – that was a major reason for their dissatisfaction. Everyone there could see that Kiev sent the money west and kept much for itself.

    If the French provinces were to stop sending money to Paris, the Yellow movement would be totally unnecessary.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  56. Skeptikal says:
    @awry

    About 2.5 million Ukrainians have “emigrated” (you could also say “fled”) to the RF since 2014.
    Per Bloomberg most of the outflow not to Russia has been to countries of Eastern Europe, esp. Poland.

  57. Alfred says:
    @AP

    “Ukraine was historically a marsh of Poland for centuries before it was a historical marsh of Russia”

    That was mostly Galicia and Volhynia. It is a tiny part of today’s the Ukraine. In these areas, the Poles were landowners, the Jews their rent/tax collectors and the peasants were Ukrainian-speaking Slavs. Now, they are planning to sell the best farmland to “foreigners” (i.e. Jews) and the Slavs will become serfs once again.

    Ukraine’s plan to sell farmland raises fears of foreigners

    It did not include many important cities – Kiev, Odessa, Kharkov and a great many smaller ones. There was no access to the sea.

    If you go further back in time, you can also claim that Smolensk and Moscow belonged to Poland. 🙂

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  58. Alfred says:
    @Liza

    Dear Liza,

    Does this map mean anything to you?

    It is obvious that time is on Russia’s side. I suspect that if a referendum were held on joining Russia, the Blue area would have moved west and Kiev would now be blue. Poroshenko only managed to hang on to the area at the very far west in the recent presidential election – the one with 93.77%

    • Replies: @Liza
  59. Skeptikal says:
    @Alfred

    If I were a Ukrainian I would be pretty worried that my country could become Palestine V 2.0.

    That is, Jews come in and buy up the land until they are able to put together parcels large enough to establish their own communities and overwhelm local populations. Of course these communities would be financially supported by Zion and the Diaspora, thus financially outflanking Ukrainians in their own territory.

    Jews may also be behind large-scale purchases of agricultural land.
    That would be a typical move, from the pov of historical precedents.
    This would give Jews/Zionists a great deal of control of food supply in Europe and elsewhere.

    Seriously, all agricultural lands in the Ukraine should be nationalized (hah!—back to the future) to protect them from foreign exploitation and to protect Ukrainians from losing control of one of their most significant natural assets (cf. Bolivia/lithium).

    In the meantime, the question arises as to why, say, Monsanto can make a huge buck off these lands, and locals cannot. Lack of capital? Lack of business expertise?

    • Replies: @Denis
  60. @Hegar

    Maybe you are trying to sound like Russian with bad English. Russian who speaks bad English always is dropping “the”. Why you are always dropping “the”? Do you have bad English?

  61. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The problem with your argument is that the ‘war’ in the east was entirely predicable. So was Crimea leaving and joining Russia. The people in charge in Kiev – presumably with 3-digit IQ – would think about it, plan for it, etc… They obviously didn’t. Instead they provided a needed catalyst to make it worse by voting in February 2014 to ban Russian language in official use, and the idiotic attacks on Russian speakers like in Odessa, that were neither prevented nor punished. The other side – in this case Russia and Russian speakers living in Donbas and Crimea – rationally took care of their own interests. Post-Maidan Kiev handed them all they could on a silver platter while busying themselves with silly slogans and videos of golden saunas.

    Russia is actually one of the least susceptible countries to an economic collapse in the world – it is largely self-sufficient, has enormous resources that others will always buy, and has a very minimal percentage of its economy that deals with foreign trade. What they are susceptible to is the loss of value for their currency – and that has already largely happened since 2014. When it comes to energy, the countries that are low-cost producers are least impacted – who you should worry about are the numerous higher-cost producers like US shale, coal miners, or LNG gas that have huge upfront fixed costs and built-in high transportation costs. Russia and Saudis will be fine.

    Back to the drawing board, what exactly is the plan in Kiev? If they know that having a war costs them investments, how do they end that war? It is highly unlikely that it would end with a victorious Kiev army conquering Donetsk (or Crimea). So what’s the plan?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  62. chris says:

    It’s amazing how spectacularly inept all these interventions over the last decades have been. Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Yemen, the coup in Turkey but also Ukraine.

    And I know that in the ME, the Isrseli policy, as iterated by Michael Orin is to let all sides bleed each other to death, and that part has been relatively successful until recently.

    But in Ukraine, they were going to consolidate their control over the country from Kiev and force-march the Russians out of Sevastopol. And that part didn’t work at all, except as leverage to impose sanctions on Russia; but the long term goal of using Ukraine to overthrow Putin is now stuck in the Donbas.

    My point being that it is the great fortune of the world that these criminal nitwits and fools in the State (War) Department and their helpers in the “intelligence” community are so arrogant and incompetent.

  63. Liza says:
    @Alfred

    I suspect that if a referendum were held on joining Russia, the Blue area would have moved west and Kiev would now be blue.

    Anything is possible. It may come to a referendum, who knows. Or maybe things will for the Nth time shift around without the longtime residents having any say in the matter. It does not bother me that Crimeans voted to become part of Russia. If that is what ninety-something per cent of the good folks there wanted, who am I to say it is wrong.

    I hope that Odessa ceases to be Ukrainian as well. Let Russia deal with that multicultural wonderland and its morally swampy history. As far as I know, most of the people there are Russian speakers anyway.

    I only commented here in the first place to tell Mr. Saker that Ukraine is no worse/different than any other country anywhere when it comes to shifting borders and ethnicities (or races) going back hundreds of years. That was my only point. I’m not here to bash Russians; we all put our pants on one leg at a time.

  64. Z-man says:

    The Ukraine is a completely artificial country composed of no less than 4 different regions

    Let’s get this straight. THE most artificial country is that dirty little spec in the Levant that is a ‘testament’ to Satanic Jew power and built on the blood of Gentiles. ‘The Ukraine’ is a natural state in comparison.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  65. renfro says:
    @Liza

    You don’t have to be hostile to Ukraine to see that it is FUBR.
    But that won’t stop the US from treating it like another Israel toilet to flush billions of US dollars down.

    • Replies: @Liza
  66. Denis says:
    @Skeptikal

    In the meantime, the question arises as to why, say, Monsanto can make a huge buck off these lands, and locals cannot. Lack of capital? Lack of business expertise?

    The reason is that the locals have been getting royally screwed for almost 30 years by a succession of corrupt governments that justified their corruption by screeching about Russians, just like now.

  67. Arioch says:
    @Kateryna

    I propose to introduce a new, politically-correct nation-neutral article, liek they do with gender-neutral pronouns.

    Let it be “ze Ukraine” – both

    1. an acceptable middle ground for people preferring articled and articless references to the Ukraine
    2. the due mention of the most loved and revered leader Ukrainian people ever were subjected to
    3. the new shining beacon of modern, humanistic and all-encompassing political culture for all ze world to follow, under long due Ukrainian leadership and guidance

  68. Arioch says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Putin did not courted Yanukovich.

    Putin courted (gave loans to) Yulia Timoshenko, the same way as later Putin gave loans to Marine Le Pen of France

    You don’t know even the most recent and public history of ze Ukraine….
    Well, how is the land so are the patriots.

  69. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    Merkel (who herself was studying in Donetsk for few months) definitely has a hand in ze EuroUkrainian mess.

    Afterall she met with Right Sector representatives one dayt before the final, bloody part of the coup started. And that meeting of “reporting on delivering at our commitments and asking Merkel about her delivery of her commitments” both with the next day start of “offence at the government” was announced by Right Sector yet another day before, 16 February 2014.

    However i have reservations about Merkel representing German peoples, especially some alleged “genetical” trend of them to invade eastwards.
    It was public, that Merkel’s everything including public phone is spied upon by USA “intelligence community”, and Merkel considered it normal and proper.

    So it is clearly stated what she considers her allegiance and whom she considers her employees. Not citizens of Germany.

  70. “Each of these countries is as inorganic and disunited as Ukraine, or worse, made up as they are of various racial and ethnic groups who don’t identify with each other.”

    I am dubious about this suggestion. But more importantly, Ukraine or the Ukraine has had a violent revolution about every ten years. You simply cannot develop a stable government, economy or safe social system if you you overturn the the government via violence every ten tears.

    That is the key differences and essential to any successful government, and more so for a democracy that holds as innate belief, a tolerance for difference even competing ideas held by its population. It is as if the only the only we are exporting is revolution as solution to differences.

  71. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Beckow

    Europendejos , if you want , it sounds nicer and anyway in all the EU we are more and more apendejados .

    Smile , so much political correction is making us dumber and making us lose even the sense of humor .

    • Replies: @SeekerofthePresence
  72. Arioch says:
    @Mr. Hack

    > Russia has never been able to lead with a carrot, but only with a stick.

    Russia offered dozen billions of loans and years ahead orders for Ukrainian industries. Those that Yatzenyuk begged to be re-started when he destroyed democratic government of Ukraine.

    EuroMaidan tried to stole the carrot from Ukraine, and while it succeeded in stealing what Ukraine already picked, about 10%, the rest was kept safe of usurpers’ reach, and so they started looting Ukrainian economy instead. Hrivna fallen 3-fold – more than ruble.

    > Positive outside influence into Ukraine’s internal development in the form of investments and economic development

    EuroMaidan usurpers stopped real and ongoing investments from China and Russia by looting what investments arrived into Ukraine already. But at least they got $5 billions of investments from Nulland.

    I like how “economic development” is listed as “outside influence”. I thought that any state or nation would claim being capable of their own economic development, but for EuroMaidania it is quoted as some miracle that can only be given from outside.

    > foreign investments being delayed until the war in the east is resolved

    And that was why EuroMaidan usurpers invaded Donbass and started the war. To preclude investments from the West after they stopped investments form China and Russia.

    > create a chaotic situations

    EuroMaidan proponent blaming chaotic situations. Precious. “Bees against honey” movement.

    > Since the West changed the dynamics of the energy game around the world

    Did it? how exactly? By making Ukrainian pipelines liability no one wants to touch with a pole?

    > It’s learned to better feed itself, and that’s about it

    But that is exactly what Ukraine knew how to do, and what EuroMaidania can not do.
    While Russia is gaining this experience – EuroMaidania was and is destroying it, for the sake of being “not like Russia”. Way to go!

    > One more jolt like in 2014

    You mean the one when rouble fallen two-fold and hrivna three-fold?
    Guess if the West could do it again – they would. But they can’t.

    > where are Russia’s automobiles, televisions, medical equipment, computers, pharmaceuticals etc; within the world markeplace?

    Russia is not packaging consumer goods. Russia is sending technologies, which others pack as consumer goods.

    https://www.quora.com/Does-Russia-make-and-export-things-I-have-never-seen-anything-made-in-Russia

    Ukraine could become one of those salesmen, packing Russian technologies into pretty wraps and selling around.
    EuroMaidan usurpers feared that and prevented that.

    EuroMaidan even destroyed Antonov company, which was one of just 4 companies in the world capable of building large airframes. Ensuring AirBus+Boeing+Tupolev/Ilyushin would have one competitor less. And as Antonov was el-cheapo vendor with strategy based on dumping – it was especially dangerous for Russian company, of the three. Thank you, guys, for removing this riddance out of Russian pathway. You did great service!

  73. Arioch says:
    @Hapalong Cassidy

    Beckow> the crowds on Maidan, I get a sense that they are all about to leave Ukraine or are thinking about leaving.

    You do not need to “have a feeling” 🙂

    The promise of “visa-less living and working in EU” was exactly what EuroMaidan crowd paraded as their aim and treasure, somehow magically warranted by the “Deep Association” that Yatzenyuk and Poroshenko later dragged feet for months, trying to delay signing of this economy suicide pact.

    They were very public and honest about it. They claimed Yanukovich was somehow putting ball and chain on them all by giving the second thought to orders from Brussels. Aid in leaving Ukraine was the price they sold Ukrainian economy for. Ther were never shy in 2014 to speak about it.

    Hapalong Cassidy> While Kharkov has more Russians than most other provinces of Ukraine do, it does not have a plurality like Donetsk and Luhansk.

    There is a point. Kharkov in North-East and Odessa in South-West were trading cities, routing the official and smuggled goods streams and hosting the largest foreign goods markets. This clearly had impact upon mindsets of citizens and even more of cities elites.

    People in Kharkov went to the streets right after the coup commited and without support they were at least equally numerous to all-Ukraine sponsored gathering of EuroMaidan #2.
    But their leaders did not seek for independence, Kharkov city mayor Kernes openly shook hands with Andrey “White Fuhrer” Byletsky and expressed his care about his (not Kharkov citizens) safety in the night of Rymarskaya street murders, 2014 March 14th AFAIR.

    People in Kharkov went against nazi from westernmost Ukraine regions (and even policemen) and stormed those out of their district government building. Who else did then?

    They had a huge impulse, but they also focused the most efforts from usurpers to deflect and dissipate it. And little free resources the usurpers had back then.
    Month later, in April, Kharkov was exhausted and pacified. But other regions of Ukraine were overlooked those two months.

    However, it was that first month which gave people in Donetsk and Lugansk both time and examples to understand what is really going on (it was almost unbelievable that something like that can actually happen in XXI century in Europe, wasn’t it?) and learn their Ukrainian elites are prostituting them, and then find some other leaders which would have enough skin in the game to not sell them out.

    You may rightly say Kharkov citizens did not resist for long. But have to admit the resistance of Donbass and Lugansk was in significant part based upon time Kharkov bought them in March and April 2014, and upon self-exposing that Kharkov’s fleeting but furious resistance forced EuroMaidan usurpers into.

  74. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:

    “All, repeat, ALL the steps taken to sever crucial economic and cultural links between Russia and the Ukraine were decided upon by Ukrainian leaders, never by Russia who only replied symmetrically when needed.
    Even with international sanctions directed at her, Russia successfully survived both the severance of ties with the Ukraine and the AngloZionist attempts at hurting the Russian economy. In contrast, severing economic ties with Russia was a death-sentence for the Ukrainian economy which has now become completely deindustrialized.”

    No wonder saker deletes posts to his website containing info like these:

    https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/UKR/Year/LTST/TradeFlow/Export/Partner/by-country/Product/Total

    https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/UKR/Year/LTST/TradeFlow/Import/Partner/by-country/Product/Total

    http://www.democracyhouse.com.ua/en/2018/ukraine-russia-trade-ties-trends-and-forecasts/

    The top trade partner of *the* Ukraine is Russia. So his thesis is a little ‘shoddy math’ ish. The links have not been severed as he pretends.

    “…the severance of ties with Russia…” The Ukraine is more tied to Russia than any other country, by recent trade volumes (as well as in traditional culture). Saker doesn’t like these facts to muddy up his thesis.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @Arioch
  75. @Alfred

    This means that the provinces that are losing most from this internal transfer are going to be strongly motivated to stop sending money to Kiev.

    You don’t get it. Ukraine’s South-Eastern provinces are inanimate objects. They have no consciousness, no self-interest or free will. They don’t decide anything.

    Donbass never decided to break away from the Ukraine. That choice was made for it by Strelkov, when he and his men occupied Slovyansk and began an armed confrontation.

  76. @Anon

    The Ukraine used to export something like $20 billion worth of goods to Russia annually. It’s now closer to $5 billion, and Ukrainians are a lot poorer as a result.

    • Replies: @Anon
  77. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:
    @Felix Keverich

    The point is saker maintains it is completely de-industrialized. It is ‘dead’. Total trade of >40 B all partners, isn’t dead by a long shot. See what he says? ‘Death sentence’. Far from it. A decrease isn’t death. No doubt there has been a plunge. But saker is over stating it. Russia is still a center of gravity for the Ukraine.

  78. anonymous[191] • Disclaimer says:

    I am so sick and tired of hearing the term nazi this and nazi that when referring to the situation in the Ukraine. The term nazi died in 1945 and should be left dead and buried. It was a stupid word created by the British during the war because of their inability to pronounce the German name for the NSDAP. The British and American media have a fetish for the word and will call any “right-wing” movement “nazi” if given any opportunity. This shows their total lack of creativity to come up with anything new and their deep obsession with anything to do with Hitler which borders on religious worship. I say get rid of the usage of the word on this site unless one is referring to the actual NSDAP party that existed until 1945.

  79. @RadicalCenter

    They can practice medicine in China or the Philippines. Their mother is from these countries.

  80. Liza says:
    @renfro

    You don’t have to be hostile to Ukraine to see that it is FUBR.
    But that won’t stop the US from treating it like another Israel toilet to flush billions of US dollars down.

    The difference is vast, namely, in that the ordinary, workaday ethnic Ukies won’t benefit from those billions in any meaningful sense. Anyway, we over here are overdue for a financial collapse, don’t you think?

  81. zimriel says: • Website

    Proto-Sanskrit, probably not; proto-Indo-Iranic, possibly. This is after all the old Scythian steppe and the Yamnaya heartland before that. I’ve written an essay on topic (link on name).

  82. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    Russia is actually one of the least susceptible countries to an economic collapse in the world – it is largely self-sufficient, has enormous resources that others will always buy, and has a very minimal percentage of its economy that deals with foreign trade.

    Sounds like a recipe for disaster, the credentials of some sort of backwards and retarded country that for whatever reason just wasn’t able to compete successfully with its peers. “G0 to the back of the class” Russia. 🙁

    • Replies: @renfro
    , @nsa
    , @Beckow
  83. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    You forgot the ‘salo’ (in Romanian slanina) that food we share and goes so well with the tzuica and horilka (horinca in Romanian). Actually the fat is the one affecting the brain clogging the arteries and leading to apoplexy. Tzuica/horinca dissolves the fat clogging the arteries. I recommend that you shouldn’t have salo without horilka. It would make you less apoplectic.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  84. ” The best move for Zelenskii would be to arrest the whole lot of them overnight (Poroshenko himself, but also Avakov, Parubii, Iarosh, Farion, Liashko, Tiagnibok, etc.”
    Saker, well said, it is also the best move Trump could make. To play with traitors will lead to death. I truly believe the American public would support Trump if he arrested the traitors.

  85. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I don’t know where or why you’ve devloped this Ukrainaphobia? If I wrote negative things about Romania or tried to cast some sort of aspersion on the existense of a Romanian nationality, I’m sure that you’d take unbrage too. The sad thing is that you seem too intelligent to sink to such a low level. Perhaps, it’s drilled into you from a young age and is just a hazzard of living in that part of the world?

    • Replies: @hunor
    , @Seraphim
  86. Gerard2 says:
    @AWM

    You are an absurd cretin. Of course referring to current Ukraine as being controlled by Nazi’s is 100% accurate.

    Ukronazis and Hitler Nazi’s have many alignments with eachother:

    1. Bizarre, fundamentally paganist usage of ahistoric/religious images from a millenia ago as national symbols …that should have had no connection to national identity of either state in the 1930’s or now ( swastika and Tryzub) … even the UPA flag has more sense about it to any “Ukrainian ” state

    2. Mass arrests and persecution of political opponents……I’m fairly sure that Ukronazi’s have arrested ( and maybe even killed) far more people in their first 5 years, that the Nazi’s ever did in their 6 year, pre-war time in charge

    3. Mass killing and torture of the people of the Donbass- now take on board this is with Russia fighting the war of fighting the war that they are not even there ……and Russia/DNR/LNR basically conducting huge talks with west/Banderastan and making huge concessions every time they have been in a a hugely advantageous position or made a big breakthrough in the war. Even Nazi’s wouldn’t have used such a lousy pretext for instigating war against the people of Donbass – although at least the Nazi’s could govern their state…ukrops can’t govern f**k all without it descending into farce

    4. Above average representation of freaks and/or highly camp idiots……Goebbels, Goering and Ribbentrop versus Avakov, “Yats” the yid, Poroshenko, Turchynov and many more – a lamentable contest

    5. Neither would have got off the ground without Anglo-American funding

    Just because the Nazi’s in the 30’s and 40’s were more competent does not take away the similarities

  87. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:

    *the * Ukraine is not dead nor dying contrary to saker:

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp. (click on 10 y timescale)

    https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.MKTP.KD.ZG?locations=UA

    again, click on 10 y timescale or ad lib;

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/exports

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/imports

    “…a death-sentence for the Ukrainian economy which has now become completely deindustrialized.”

    saker has lost it:

    “Now that the Ukraine has been completely deindustrialized, all she can export are either people or land/soil.”

    saker needs to do some fact checking.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @renfro
    , @Biff
  88. @Anon

    Thank you. Magnificent performance.

  89. Upon reading this article it should become even more evident who were responsible for the downing of MH17

  90. renfro says:
    @Anon

    Pick whatever you want to believe.

    Ukraine Special Focus Note
    Tapping Ukraine’s growth potential
    May 23, 2019
    http://pubdocs.worldbank.org/en/927141558601581077/Ukraine-Special-Focus-Note-Spring-2019-en.pdf

    Structural bottlenecks and slow reform progress lead to anemic growth in Ukraine
    The rate of economic growth in Ukraine remains too low to reduce poverty and reach income levels of neighboring European countries. Following the 16 percent cumulative contraction of the economy in 2014-15, economic growth has recovered to 2.4 percent in 2016-17 and 3.3 percent in 2018. Faster economic growth for a sustained period of time is needed to reduce poverty which remains above pre-crisis levels. More needs to be done if Ukraine’s aspiration is to become a high-income country and to close the income gap with advanced economies. Today Ukraine is far from that goal. In terms of GDP-per-capita, Ukraine remains one of the poorest countries in the region—at levels of Moldova, Armenia and Georgia. Ukraine’s GDP per capita in purchasing power parity terms is about three times lower than in Poland, despite having similar income levels in 1990.
    At the growth rate of recent years, it will take Ukraine more than 50 years to reach income levels of today’s Poland. If Ukraine’s productivity growth and investment rate remains at the low levels observed in recent years, overt the medium-term the growth rate will converge to almost zero per annum—productivity growth is offset by declining contribution of labor as Ukraine undergoes the demographic transition. Boosting total factor productivity growth to 3 percent per year and investment to 30 percent of GDP would result in sustained growth of about 4 percent per year over the medium- to long-term. Given declining total population this translates to GDP per capita growth of about 4.5 percent per year. These trends will not improve on their own, they can happen only through the implementation of appropriate policies that boost productivity and increase the returns on factors of production.

    Ukraine – Economic Indicators- Moody’s
    https://www.economy.com/ukraine/indicators

  91. Biff says:
    @Anon

    You have to start out ignorant to believe anything the World Bank has to say about Ukraine or Russia – total house of mirrors.

  92. renfro says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Russia is independent self supporting state.
    Ukraine is a US welfare client…..that like Israel cannot exist as a modern state without aid.

    When the Ukraine cleans its self up , pays off its debts, as Russia did for the USSR, then we’ll talk.

    • Agree: Robjil, DESERT FOX
  93. nsa says:
    @Mr. Hack

    The three countries with the highest potential standard of living are Russia, Canada, and Australia based on the ratio of natural resources to population. Russia is a vast country covering eleven time zones with almost unlimited natural resources, including close to one half of the untapped arctic. You know what really gnaws at the jew and his Butt Bitch Amelikans? In the early 1990s the IMF sent in Jeff Sachs and his jewboys to plunder a prostrate former USSR. They had the vast resources of Russia almost within their grasp……..and then the Russian nationalists led by Vlad Putin snatched it all away.
    This is exactly why the JudenPresse , JudenTV, and both Butt Bitch political parties relentlessly bash Russia with a hatred far beyond irrational.

  94. hunor says:
    @Mr. Hack

    There is no such tribe as Romanians , they are Wlachians.
    The name of Romanians has been invented by thought.

    • LOL: Daniel.I
  95. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    What was ‘drilled’ into me was that the population inhabiting ‘these part of the world’ was always called Ruși or Ruteni by Romanians and I am rather unashamedly a ‘Russophile’. If there was some dislike of part of them, it was for the Uniates as Uniates in general (they had their counter-part in Romania, same Papist-Habsburg agents). Now it extends to those who made themselves agents of subversion of Orthodoxy under nationalistic pretenses (phyletism) along with the clowns of the Rodnoverya. It has something to do with Bucovina and Basarabia (proper) too, I admit.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  96. Smith says:

    I don’t the visible hatred for Ukraine and ukrainian on this site.

    It seems they are almost bloodlusting to kill ukrainian and occupy their land.

    Either ways, best of luck to ukrainian and Ukraine, may their sword arm be strong and their bullets strong. So far, despite Russia’s best effort, they can only take over Crimea and two border cities.

    • LOL: bluedog
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  97. Malacaay says:
    @Alfred

    Acceptance of what, homo imbecilus? The fact that Ukraine holds the most fertile land in the whole world and Russo scum would

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernozem

    You see this distribution, clown? No doubt Russo dogs would love to colonize Ukranian people and get hold of that riches, and there is no doubt masonic scum would love to see that happen too, hence a lot of masonic energy and labor has been put in to break up Ukraine so Russo trash could take it. O Russo trash would love to get their filthy hands on all of Ukraine, not just Crimea, rest be assured. You fake ameros are such clowns. Very mental people who just don’t grasp reality well… it’s like you are living in a fantasy land there in Murica.

  98. Malacaay says:

    Isn’t it interesting how this Tatar-Dutch half-breed called Slacker is propagating taking over Ukraine, absorbing it, by his Russo dogs, hmm? It’s like his filthy Russo land doesn’t have enough land, it wants moar. And it wants to colonize Ukranian people, the real Russians. Most of Russia is not populated by Russians, but by people who speak Russian language and have Russian names. This very writer is by his own admission of Tatar (that is nomad; Tatars were nomads: you could use the word Huns because they lack any cultural designation whatsoever, for they never had any culture and culture is not what they produce) and Dutch origin. The other fake Russo Orlov is Cuman or Kipchak (certainly not of Slavic or Nordic origin — you know the kinds which created Russian nation). KGB bureaucratic drone Putin is of Ugro-Finnic origin, you know the kind which is defined by their small physical stature and pale complexion. Their Defense Minister is some kind of half-breed too. Look it up, half-Tuvan (Tatar nomad). Their chief general Gerasimov Valery is half-Mongol. No wonder that scum wants to assimilate and destroy real Russians, the Ukranian people. The Rus capital was always Kiev, never Moscow.

    • LOL: Seraphim
  99. Malacaay says:
    @Kateryna

    It’s a ploy of this half-breed Slacker by which he designates Ukraine as “the march” of his filthy Russo land, i.e. it is an intention of theft and colonization which that half-breed which speaks Russian language and carries Russian name is displaying there. Now who convinced these Tatar nomads they are Russians because they hold Russian names and know Russian language? Are those hundreds of millions of Africans English and le French because they speak French and English language and have their cultural names? Of course not. There is simply no biological conditions for Tatar nomads to be assimilated into Russian nation. Many of them are Altaic Asiatic people, not European.

    • LOL: Seraphim
  100. Malacaay says:
    @Commentator Mike

    Right, Communist Mike. The truth is that Jews were given free reign there to wreck Ukraine and steal as much as possible so conditions for break up of Ukraine and subsequent theft and colonization by Russian scum could be created. Jews there are just masonic players, former communists and their chilren, who got very rich after the end if USSR by stealing and appropriating public assets and stealing from the public purse. It could be anyone, but Jews were designated to do it so that the narratives which comes with the Jews could be conjured. Masonic Jesuit plague could have put anyone in charge there really.

    • LOL: Seraphim
  101. Malacaay says:
    @TheJester

    You really are just a simple-minded fake American jester. Why do you think Russian nation and state was called Kievan Rus, hmm? Because it was a “borderland,” a “march,” of something? Ukraine is the 2nd birthplace of Russian nation (the first one being Novgorod I think, for that is where the Rus Viking tribe was stationed and merged with Slavic tribes to create Russian nation). Now what name it carries is of no consequence, the history clearly demonstrates what Ukraine is? Look.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

    Perhaps Ukaine should adopt its rightful name instead of that Cossack one impsoed by Muscovite “Czars” upon them. Ukraine is the Kievan Rus. It’s not a “borderland” of Moscow, it’s is the heartland of the Russia. Moscow was borderland of Russia when Kiev was the capital. Muscovite scum was just making Kievan Rus borderland of itself, that’s all.

    • LOL: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Begemot
  102. Malacaay says:
    @Curmudgeon

    They do consider Donbass people as their own; it’s Russo dogs and their special operatives who set up Donbass on the part of separation they are fighting. It’s separatists and Russos they are fighting there, not people of Donbass. They don’t ethnically cleanse occupied Donbass land, instead they consider and threat it as any other part of Ukraine (like that western part Lviv for example). I bet initial uprising was set up by Russo special forces by storming buildings and later on attacking Ukranian troops sent to restore the order. Donbass people were caught up in between all that. You have to understand that amero trash is working together with Russo one there. They are the comrades working to wreck Ukranian people and create conditions for them to be colonized by Russo scum. But Ukranians do not want anything to do with Russo trash. They belong with us. They state it by their own will. Ask them. Russo scum can take their Serbo dogs and return what they stole in Crimea. They say they cannot do it because of all the resources they have poured into building Crimea “after years of Ukranian neglection.” We shall have international donation rally and raise every dime Russo scum spent so they can be paid what they spent there to return what they had stolen.

  103. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    So, the Rusi or Rutentsi had a name change? How many times have the Chinese had a name change in their evolution? Even the Romanians had several name changes before they settled on “Romanian”? , The vast majority of Ukrainians within Bukovina and Bessarabia remained Orthodox Christians. Why get way bent out of shape if a small handful of those that converted to the Union have damned their souls to the eternal flamess of hell, anyway? A Russophile Romanian (that’s what you are?). Sounds as eclectic as a Francophile German?. 🙂

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  104. Malacaay says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Who said so, Russo dog? Russian trash has been saying that in order to take riches of Kievan Rus. Ukraine has low level of debt, in fact if they just imprison the oligarchy and confiscate what has been stolen, they will pay all the debt back. They don’t even have to pay it back. They can just declare that debt as odious debt and tell all the creditors to fuck off and ask those oligarchic thieves to pay them back. They don’t have to do anything. All they apparently owe is some fiat paper to some individual scoundrels. In the end Ameros are over 230 trillion usd, their accounting rules suspended so they can mask current debt levels still in creation while those derivatives are used to mask past debt… still they make over a trillion (official, the real level is much bigger) in budgetary debt and 800 billion in trade deficit, and nobody calls them bankrupt. Don’t make fool of yourself, Russo clown. The value of ukraine is far, far above few tens of billions of usd currency units they apparently owe capitalist scoundrels. As I said they can just declare it as odious and send those scoundrels in Russia to ask former president for their bucks. They do however have some cultural delinquency traits which are best visible in their corrupt dealings as well as some serious incompetence, but it is nothing which cannot be fixed. A few million Germans would make Ukraine run just fine I am sure. They are very capable organizers and administrators, and in time Ukranians will learn themselves German ways and behavior.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  105. Malacaay says:
    @tolemo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

    Learn fake amero. Contrary to your cultural upbringing, ignorance is not a “strength” and neither is stupidity.

  106. Malacaay says:
    @Eagle Eye

    If you read their history, fake amero imbecile, you will quickly learn this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

    Ukraine should really adopt its rightful name Kievan Rus instead of that one imposed on them by Muscovite “Czars.” Ukraine is the Kievan Rus. It’s not a “borderland” of Moscow, nor wishes it to be in any way, shape or form as they satted it many times I beleive. Ukraine is the heartland of the Russia. Learn history amero dogs. What Muscovite would want is of no concern for Ukranians. Tell me, why doesn’t Moscow become borderland of Kiev like it has always been, hmm? You see there what Muscovites were? You don’t have a single eye, fake Eagle.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  107. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    This your link has few problems.

    1. It does not split trade to industries. Hi-tech big added value and lo-tech slim added value – falls into the same “total”
    2. It only shows one snapshot, not YoY dynamics.
    3. The column “Export Product” shows exactly the same value – literally, 100% – for ALL the countries, all the rows. I wonder what we should deduce from it…

    What about this, a perspective ?

    https://wits.worldbank.org/CountryProfile/en/Country/UKR/StartYear/2011/EndYear/2018/TradeFlow/Export/Indicator/XPRT-TRD-VL/Partner/RUS/Product/Total

    Russian Federation 19,819,713.34 17,631,749.45 15,077,259.13 9,799,143.63 4,827,717.88 3,592,865.62 3,943,217.84

    2012 – $19,8B
    2013 – $17,6B – the start of the coup
    2014 – $15B – the coup won power but did entrenched yet and did not had time yet to enforce its ideals
    2015 – $9.8B – the work started
    2016 – $4.8B – 80% of 2012 exports are cut off, EuroMaidan means business
    2017 – $3.6B – 82% of 2013 exports are cut off, coming to plateau ?
    2018 – $3,9B – a slight rebound, plateau reached

    • Replies: @Anon
  108. Begemot says:
    @Malacaay

    So start calling yourselves Russians then. That will show those Ukrainian wannbes in Moscow.

    Will Igor Mosiychuk be OK with that?

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  109. Arioch says:

    I am amused how “not-a-slightest-shade-of-Nazi” ukropeans are devoted to measuring “blood” and “genetic ancestry”.

    Little problem is haplogroups: https://netotvetov.livejournal.com/38667.html

    Ukraine: 43% “Indo-European” R1a, 21% pre-Aryan I2
    Russia: 46% R1a, 23% “Finno-Hungarian” N

    Will anyone say Finland is not of Europe, Hungary?

    That being said, nature or nurture?

    If “never-Nazi” ukropeans believe the blood matters so much, that they always are obsessed with proving Russians are genetically inferior to them (absolutely not Nazi trait, let the word sleep in peace), then what is their fuss about “going West” about? They can not change their own blood no matter what they do!

    If ukropeans believe they can work on their own culture and one day catch up and overcome Russia in some perceived “Europeannes” – by changing their culture/nurture without wiping out their blood/nature – then why should they care to devotedly measure ancestries in Russian DNA pool?

    What kind of split mindset is this???

  110. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    > Why do you think Russian nation and state was called Kievan Rus, hmm?

    Because it was not, so simple.

    This term was made up for politic convenience CENTURIES after that state – and even that once huge and capital city – ceased to exist, deserted by most inhabitants.

    > Tell me, why doesn’t Moscow become borderland of Kiev like it has always been, hmm?

    Because Ukrainian jail of captive nations is corrupt and obsolete. Ukrainian dream is medieval, there is no place for it in 21st century.

    Ukraine managed to occupy Sevastopol and Crimea in the lost years of 1990-s – but it failed to keep their favorite colony even for half a century.
    Ukraine clings badly to Lenin’s booty of DKR lands – but even those slip out of Ukrainian’s armed gangs.
    Lenin’s ancestry is flowing out of the Ukraine – city by city, region by region.

    You dream of times when you could dictate Russia what to do and what to say, dreams – in public even, without realizing how foolish you look – about conquering Kuban and about tearing down Kremlin walls with Ukrainian tanks.
    But those were not just medieval times you dream off, those were EARLY medieval times.

    You obsession with bossing people around the world telling Anglos what English they are allowed to speak, and telling Russians what Russian language should be normative for them – has the same stem, Kulturträger complex of Ukrainian resentment, trying to rule upon neighbors again, like it used to thousand years ago for a century or two.

    Move one. Sweden was once dominating Europe. Poland was once largest Slavic kingdom. But that won’t happen again. And Ukrainian empire will not raise from the dead too.

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  111. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    > A few million Germans would make Ukraine run just fine I am sure. They are very capable organizers and administrators, and in time Ukranians will learn themselves German ways and behavior.

    So the ideal of EuroMaidan was to force Ukrainians under German diktat to be colonized and assimilated.

    Indeed, nothing even remotely similar to Bandera’s masters from Third Reich planning, absolutely different unrelated utopia.

    Ain’t them ukropeans simply amusing??? 😀

    Somehow I think Moscow and Berlin would manage to negotiate justly cheap prices and strict enough quality control, for the plants German voluntary slaves would grow in the famed Chernozyom, now properly secured by German landlords. Why should we occupy the dirt of Ukraine, if we can just toss Germans some gas discount and have the harvests dillingly brought to our warehouses?

    • Replies: @Malacaay
    , @RadicalCenter
  112. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arioch

    For you, Biff, etc.

    My point is the ukraine isn’t dead. It isn’t dying. How have you shown Ukraine is dead or dying? Ukraine has plenty of foreign trade, and Russia is still #1 partner. How have you shown that is not the case?

    Obviously Russia has been replaced in many channels, but it is still #1 like it or not. And the GDP numbers show Ukraine has bounced back. So it isn’t dying.

    Ukraine GDP has been growing. Too bad for the deniers. saker hasn’t shown Ukraine is dying.

    this link isn’t the world bank
    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp
    GDP growing.

  113. Malacaay says:
    @Begemot

    I am not Ukranian, Russo clown. But I don’t like Russkies. Fakes. Frauds. Scum just like fake ameros. And to see this presentation of lies and intention of theft by masonic scum and their Russo comrades is more than enough to awaken even a bystander to action.

  114. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    It is just a name, you imbecile. Names can change, and they do change all the time. The fact is that Kievan Rus is the heartland of Russia and Russian people. The fact is that Ukranians are more Russian than you Russkies will ever be. The fact is that the name “Ukraine+ came from Muscovite Czarist scum who referred to Kievan Rus’ lands as marches or borderlands of itself. For Kievan Rus or Ukraine Moscow is the march. That said, the only smart thing to do is to change the name of Ukraine into Kievan Rus as it was used to be, since the name Ukraine comes from Muscovites, and Muscovite thieves and aggressors are the greatest threat and enemy of Ukraine. Stealing, sending Russo special forces, volunteers and even its own soldiers without insignia parading as volunteers, etc. all are standard Russo behavior.

    • Troll: Seraphim
  115. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    Ukraine is a free and independent country, Russo dog. Obviously you cannot comprehend these concepts as they are foreign to you. Ukraine does need help and Germans are most competent to help. Even you couldn’t have colonized and assimilated Ukranians, Russo imbecilic dog, how could Germans being on equal terms with Ukranians ever colonize or assimilate Ukranian people. You are obviously stupid. A true Russo dog.

    The fact is that Ukraine needs help and expertise, and that Germans can help. Because you want to occupy and take “the dirt” of Ukraine, Russo dog. You see how little resources the Dutch have. They are forced to pump sea water out and make room for farming. You Russo dogs are occupying extremely large landmass already, a landmass which does not belong to you. Still, you are not using majority of your arable land even. But Russo dog does want to take Ukranian “dirt.” Still Russo dog desires more as witnessed by these propagandist and theft-intentioning pieces by Russo dogs. Do you know that that tiny Dutch state makes more on agriculture than Russia? Return what you already stole from Ukraine, you already stole Ukranian “dirt” in Crimea, you piece of shit, now you are insulting our intelligence by stating that you don’t need or want Ukranian land.

    • Troll: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Arioch
  116. @bob sykes

    I’d dismiss this, as Putin is apparently doing. Kolomoisky is looking who else would provide money that he can steal. He, Porky, and others of their ilk stole Western loans so blatantly, that even US-controlled IMF is balking at giving Ukraine more money. So, Kolomoisky hopes that Russia will, so that he has more to steal. I hope that his hopes are in vain.

  117. Truth3 says:

    The entire Ukraine farce can be explained as a simple project…

    Khazaria 2.0.

    I met a Jew (American) in Ukraine over 20 years ago.

    He told me the plan… Jews were returning to historically Jewish cities in Ukraine by the hundreds… buying up for kopecki on the Gryvnia anything they could.

    Media outlets, banks, factories, beachfront land, farmland, apartments, etc.

    The idea? Make Ukraine the next EU Country, and benefit from the huge potential of Ukraine.

    I agreed with him at the time, that Ukraine had huge potential, I was there as an engineer working for German companies… but his lust for what could be ‘looted’ disgusted me.

    Over the years, watching what happened there, I saw it clear. Jews wanted the country lock stock and barrel. They bought some, but stole more.

    Then, they used Nudelman and the CIA to assist an obvious Mossad Operation… Maidan.

    I saw, with my own eyes, the snipers perch on the square… more than 10 years before they used it.

    The world is full of un-educated and oblivious people. 9/11 proves it.

    The Jews think in terms of Centuries, and they hold grudges forever.

    Eventually, Satan’s people will get what they are after, unless all others wake up.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Seraphim
  118. @Smith

    Why don’t you wish for the gravity to disappear? This is as realistic as the wishes you made.

    • Replies: @Smith
  119. @Truth3

    the snipers perch on the square

    This is a standard CIA scenario, used in Sarajevo and Deraa before Kiev. So, Ukrainians bought an old stale show, swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

    But the Georgian snipers brought in 2014 to Kiev by Saakashvili started dying in suspicious circumstances, so those who are still alive rushed to Belarus and started deposing their testimony. They implicated a lot of Ukies, including former speaker Parubii, former MP Pashinsky, etc. It was well known (to those who did not keep their eyes wide shut for political reasons) that the sniper fire in 2014 on Maidan was from the building controlled by the coup leaders, who later tried to blame Yanuk for it. That’s why post-coup Ukrainian authorities got rid of the trees on Maidan: bullet holes in those trees indicated where the fire was coming from. But this recent testimony implicated particular people, who (surprise, surprise!) happened to be among the coup leaders.

  120. Seraphim says:
    @Truth3

    The truth is that you are absolutely right. ‘Ukrainians’ boasted that they are the ‘Khazars’ since Mazeppa and Orlyk of the ‘Constitution of Bendery’ fame, while parading a distaste for ‘the adherents of deceitful Judaism’ and noisy adherence to Orthodoxy.
    Look at this entry of the http://www.encyclopediaofukraine.com and see if anything changed:

    “After Mazepa’s death, on 16 April 1710, Orlyk was elected hetman, with the backing of Charles XII of Sweden, in Bendery. The chief author of the Constitution of Bendery, he pursued policies aimed at liberating Ukraine from Russian rule. He gained the support of the Zaporozhian Host, concluded a treaty with Charles XII* in May 1710, and sought to make the Ukrainian question a matter of international concern by continuing Mazepa’s attempts at establishing an anti-Russian coalition**. Orlyk signed a treaty with the Crimean khan Devlet-Girei in February 1711, negotiated with the Ottoman Porte, which formally recognized his authority over Right-Bank Ukraine and the Zaporizhia in 1712, conducted talks with the Don Cossack participants in Kondratii Bulavin’s revolt who had fled to the Kuban, and even contacted the Kazan Tatars and the Bashkirs. In 1711–14 he led Cossack campaigns against the Russians in Right-Bank Ukraine. Despite initial victories they ultimately failed, because of Turkish vacillation and because the pillaging, raping, and taking of many civilian captives by Orlyk’s Crimean Tatar allies resulted in the loss of public and military support on the Right Bank”.
    Nowhere does the ‘first “European” constitution’ speak about ‘ukrainians’, but of ‘Exercitu Zaporoviensi genteque Rossiaca” (Zapo­rozhian Host and the Ruthenian people) living in “Parva Rossia”/Little Russia.

    * putting Ukraine under the protection of the King of Sweden.
    ** an plot of ‘European’ and Islamic powers with an intense ‘Masonic-Kabbalistic’ coloring (and Jewish financial support) against Russian ‘Tsardom’ and ‘Patriarchal’ Church. ‘Ukraine’ was an anti-Russian project from the get go. Brzezinski’s quip: “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot because its very existence as an independent country helps to transform Russia. Without Ukraine, Russia ceases to be a Eurasian empire” reflects only the revival of the old plan in new circumstances.

    • Replies: @Arioch
    , @Mr. Hack
  121. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Neither German nor Romanian nations were ‘born’ to be ‘Francophobes’ or ‘Russophobes’ like the ‘Ukrainian’.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  122. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    That’s too bad. But wait, hadn’t both France and Germany waged war against Russia?…

    What’s the matter with Romanians? Don’t they have enough on the ball to stand on their own two feet
    and look no urther than themselves for inspiration and their own heroes? 🙁

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  123. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Your brain is thick. To much salo without horilka.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  124. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Probably like yours, too much mamaliga with rich, rich cream sauce, very thick! 🙂 🙂

  125. Smith says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Why don’t you?

    There’s nothing unrealistic about my wish. You want blood, but you will not get it. Putin has more than meat on his platter to start shit in Ukraine.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  126. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    > how could Germans being on equal terms with Ukranians ever colonize or assimilate Ukranian people

    You require “millions of Germans” to settle in Ukraine to teach Ukrainians ways of life, because you think Ukrainians themselves cannot figure those out.
    You require that for every ten Ukrainians there was at least one German there to guide and command them.
    No, this 1:10 master race to aborigines ratio you champion for is not colonization, not in the slightest, no-no-no! Bad word, bad!!!

    LOL

    > My point is the ukraine isn’t dead. It isn’t dying.

    In which quality? As a swath of land inhabited by few peasants here and there – it surely will remain.
    As an economically vibrant country, one of UN founders, with economy larger than German and closing on France – what it used to be – it is dead.
    As a laws-bound polity it is dead since 2014, though was dying even before.
    As STEM engineering and education stronghold it was in USSR – it is dead.
    As one in just four in the whole world producers of really large airplanes – it is dead.
    As one of the few ICBM producers – it is dead, know-how sold to Saudi.
    As one of the few turbojet engines producers – it is dead, know-how sold to China.
    As one of the reliable and well known tanks and APCs producer – it is dead, even USA-occupied Iraq does not buy this trash.
    As the country, living from the geographic rent, just providing roads and hotels for cargo traffic, it is almost dead. Bridges are collapsing, roads – neither for cars nor railways – are not maintained.

    Here was a question, what is that “made by Russia” that can be purchased in Wall-Mart and on the Newegg. Good, now what is there on the shelves “made in Ukraine” ?

    > Ukraine GDP has been growing.

    GDP is so funny a number…
    An oligarch took a credit from state budget, $1B, then faked bankruptcy as pocketed it.
    At the same time a million people failed to find $100 for food and died of starvation.
    GDP is growing tenfold, statistics is improving an order of magnitude.

    Someone live in Somalia, someone live in Ethiopia, someone will be there to live in the Ukraine too. Of course.

    > The fact is that Kievan Rus is the heartland of Russia and Russian people.

    No, this is not a fact but a technical shortcut stupidly extracted from its niche domain and overstretched into propaganda term into the areas of language it never belonged to.

    > the name “Ukraine+ came from Muscovite Czarist scum who referred to Kievan Rus’ lands as marches or borderlands of itself.

    No, this term w.r.t. modern Ukraine was first used by Poland-made maps.
    When those borderlands were retaken by Russia – this term remained, as the word was used in both Russian and Polish lands. Also, Russia had other borderlands back then, named with the same term.

    > the only smart thing to do is to change the name of Ukraine into Kievan Rus

    I agree that if normative “the Ukraine” is hurting Ukrainian feelings they better just change the name. Like people of Burma renamed their state to Myanmar.

    However, trying to steal the name from Russia be just pathetic and amusing. Like two Macedonias bitch-fighting for the sole use of the name, centuries ago glorified by kings Philippe and Alexandre, both invaders and aggressors at large.

    So, if the Ukraine want to become yet more laughing stock than it already is – let them go.
    Let them officially state themselves as a land that never existed and that only retroactively by different people was concocted, just for a matter of technical convenience. It would definitely fit.

    > sending Russo …. volunteers … all are standard Russo behavior … aggressors are the greatest threat and enemy
    > Germans being on equal terms … that Germans can help

    I see, I see.

    Thousands of Russians protecting civilians and fighting back aggressors bombing living houses and schools with children, whose warchief Porko was officially stating the Ukraine’s victory is by forcing children out of schools into basements – that is invasion and colonization.
    Million of German master ruling Ukrainian aborigines what to do – that is help on equal term.

    > you want to occupy and take “the dirt” of Ukraine

    Proebaltic states and EuroMaidania so cry for it – but they won’t get it. They lost their appeal they had century ago. They became worthless.

    Germans will send us harvests from the Ukraine el cheapo.
    Germans would force Ukrainians to keep quality standards, by carrot or stick what would prove cheaper, because on equal terms.
    Ukrainians will be shoveling the dirt to grow organic carrots for Russian tables.
    And we will send “urban decay” tourists, to take photos from rotting buildings of once world-class factories of Antonov and YuzhMash.
    That is how the lands become free and independent.

    > stole Ukranian “dirt” in Crimea

    It was never Ukrainian. Neither was Sevastopol. They were occupied by the Ukraine in violation nof laws and against locals resistance.

    The moment EuroMaidania killed Ukraine – locals raised against. They fought for their freedom and we helped them. People of LPR and DPR fought for their freedom and we helped them. Will other people stand to fight for their future – we will consider helping them. Willing slaves to Germany and EuroMaidania may enjoy their servitude all they like. They called us to fight their fights instead of them themselves, back in 2013, we did not respond.

    • Agree: Robjil
    • Disagree: Malacaay
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Malacaay
  127. Arioch says:
    @Seraphim

    ” Brzezinski’s quip: “Ukraine, a new and important space on the Eurasian chessboard, is a geopolitical pivot ”

    Old Zbieg was as lunatic as Pole can be and as cunning as Jew can be (was he?).

    The Poles were so desiring to became Slavic superpower, and on the height of their might in 15th century – they could become. They occupied Russian lands – oh, that mythical Kievan Rus oppressed by Moscow for centuries. And they even occupied Moscow for few months – more than unified Europe managed to do under both Napoleon and Hitler combined! Polska was really stronk then.

    ….well, they ate themselves from inside and sold their statehood to all the foreign bidders while boasting about Polish pride. Like ukropeans do today. They lost their strength, they lost their eastern colony, and for a while they even lost Poland itself.

    They could never move over it.

    Zbieg – coming from Galicia, the last shrink of Poland-occupied lands – had this specifically Polish resentment burning in him. And he managed to make USA fight Polish fights. Managed to use American incompetence in history and geography to sell them that idea that the Ukraine – the borderlands between Poland and Russia have “geopolitical” importance. For USA, no less. Wow!

    Okay, USA invested at very least $5B into buying Ukrainian warchiefs, and we don’t know how much more was added by EU and Germany. They now have this “geopolitical asset” as Zbieg urged them to do. What are they gonna do with it now? How do they gonna make Ukrainians pay back the money they spent? Old Zbieg preached about the world “paid by Russia to fight against Russia”. This is that very “Russia, occupy the Ukraine finally, we are tired of fruitless waiting!” whining they repeat again and again. But if this won’t work, just like it did not work yet, how do they think to make Ukrainians pay for it? Or whom else? I wonder…

  128. Beckow says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Resources and self-sufficiency are ‘backward‘ and ‘retarded’‘ in your world? I don’t know, you seem a bit dense today.

    It is like this: would you claim that a family that can’t take care of itself and engages in massive polygamy to ‘mix it up‘ is superior to a normal nuclear family? Maybe we just see life very differently. And don’t get me started on Ukraine’s ‘credentials‘…

    • LOL: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  129. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Your discombobulated try at writing a short panageric against the Ukrainian cause does not elicit much sympathy for your Ukrainaphobic leanings. I read the entry that you cite (actually indirectly for Pylyp Orlyk) and find no mention of “while parading a distaste for ‘the adherents of deceitful Judaism’ and noisy adherence to Orthodoxy.”? Your flights of fancy or just a bad attempt at creative
    editorializing on your behalf?

    And please do offer another “citation” for this fantastical theory too:

    an plot of ‘European’ and Islamic powers with an intense ‘Masonic-Kabbalistic’ coloring (and Jewish financial support) against Russian ‘Tsardom’ and ‘Patriarchal”

    Are you sure that it’s not tsuica getting the best of your poor brain cells…I’m beginning to think that it’s just plain old fashioned old age and dementia on display here. 🙂

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  130. Mr. Hack says:
    @Beckow

    “Man does not live by buckwheat and sunflower oil alone”

    🙂

  131. To be honest, discussing Ukraine is becoming repetitive and boring. Maybe we should just let it die in peace.

    • Replies: @Gerard2
  132. @Smith

    Come back in 10 years. Let’s compare notes then.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  133. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arioch

    “> My point is the ukraine isn’t dead. It isn’t dying.

    In which quality? As a swath of land inhabited by few peasants here and there – it surely will remain.
    As an economically vibrant country, one of UN founders, with economy larger than German and closing on France – what it used to be – it is dead.
    As a laws-bound polity it is dead since 2014, though was dying even before.
    As STEM engineering and education stronghold it was in USSR – it is dead.
    As one in just four in the whole world producers of really large airplanes – it is dead.
    As one of the few ICBM producers – it is dead, know-how sold to Saudi.
    As one of the few turbojet engines producers – it is dead, know-how sold to China.
    As one of the reliable and well known tanks and APCs producer – it is dead, even USA-occupied Iraq does not buy this trash.
    As the country, living from the geographic rent, just providing roads and hotels for cargo traffic, it is almost dead. Bridges are collapsing, roads – neither for cars nor railways – are not maintained.”

    Bravado, anyone can see.

    Dead countries don’t produce electricity. Real economists look at things like this. Not just at industrial reorganization. That is the only point you have. Industrial reorganization. Not death of industry.

    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/electricity-production
    click on ten years
    28th in world rankings. far from dead.

    • Agree: Malacaay
    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Arioch
    , @AnonFromTN
  134. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    BTW, most *live* countries of the world do not produce ICBMs, nor jet engines, nor APCs etc, nor super heavy aircraft. The military industrial complex remnants from the SU are not industries that most of the planet’s countries have. Specialties. Those can not be measures of whether a country is living or dead. Use some real measures.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  135. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    Actually a good point. Mass cargo logistics and energy generation. Indeed.

    The thing here is, that as of now the Ukraine is enjoying its privileged position from times Ukrainians ruled USSR (IOW, after Stalin died in 1953 and of few coup leaders Khruschev became top dog in 1956). The Ukraine is reeking with then top-tech nuclear power plants, that very few of other USSR republics had (one in Ignalina in Baltics, one in Armenia, and dozen in Russia, that is all. Ukraine was #2 with huge gap).

    There is a switch, though. What do you do with electricity you produced?
    And, what kind of electricity you produce?

    The second question is tangential to “green energy” fad.
    The generation is split to “base” generation, which covers required minimum and should be steadily generating around the clock, and “maneuvering” generation which can be turned on and off in a matter of few minutes, to accommodate with daytime traits, like “people awoke in between 7-8am, took shower, cooked breakfast and departed to school/work”.
    In general, base generation is predictable, thus does not need big reserves, can use economy of scales and cut costs. Maneuvering one has to increase costs, dealing with unpredictable mode changes and extra wearing it puts on the equipment and employees.

    The first question, as you can not pour electricity into a tank and keep it for months there, can be roughly split to
    1) use at home, for things like washing, cleaning, entertaining (TV, computers), air conditioning in summer and heating in winter.
    2) use in industries, this is perhaps what “real economists” look for. Those should had less daily spikes, they might even have near constant consumption around the clock.
    3) export to the countries, who need it, but does not want to build their own power plants

    The export is significant thing. There is so called Byrshtyn Island, a constellation of power plants in Western Ukraine, that was cut off from Ukrainian grid and plugged to Polish grid, to act as maneuvering damper for Polish citizens’ daylight cycles.

    http://www.ukrenergoexport.com/index.php/en/Electricity-Export

    You chart shows that between 2014 and 2015 there was strong (about 2000 GWH) decrease in production, which remained more or less stable after that. It also shows huge seasonal variation.
    It probably means Ukrainian industries and households enjoy a lot of winter-time heating, but very little of summer-time AC. Just like it was built during USSR times.

    Ukrainian electricity export seems rising. Were there new power plants put to service? I did not heard. Then it means that domestic consumption shrunk.

    2019 – http://112.international/politics/ukraine-raises-electricity-exports-by-4-in-january-2019-37406.html

    2018 – https://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/532757.html

    There are some hard numbers, but they sadly end at 2016
    https://knoema.com/atlas/Ukraine/topics/Energy/Electricity/Electricity-exports

    There was also a streak of Nuclear Power Plants accidents in the news of 2017-2019.
    This can stem from two factors:
    1) increased reliance on NPP as other power plants go belly-up, especially forcing those giant NPPs into maneuvering modes, which they were not designed for. You can find news sources that Ukrainian NPPs were being tested to 105% of normative capacity and to maneuvering modes, the modes that just do not make sense when together.
    2) decreased maintenance

    Anyway, those NPPs are of old Soviet design of 1980-s, they are closing to end of life. We’ll see if new ones will be built. Or if they will just be used regardless of aging until some hard failure, “run to the ground”. And what will come after.

    Of course, as long as they operate – no mater how harmful to locals – EU will buy cheap energy.
    And since EuroMaidan government is living on debts, it will have no choice than to sell. Even if domestic power consumption will get zero, the EU will buy the power.

    But I do not think EU would invest into building new power plants there when Soviet ones finally crack.

  136. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    Indeed, only Airbus and Boeing can produce super-heavy aircrafts.
    China and Russia are contenders. Ukraine used to be, but stepped out.

    Does it mean, USA and France are hell-bent over their military industrial complex? Maybe.
    Does it make them run worse?

    Bombardier and EmBraer factories are bought by Airbus and Boeing, not vice versa.
    Avro of Canada once used to be a pillar, now is memory.

    And all the other countries have to kiss up to political powers that allow them purchasing Boeing and Airbus jets and maintenance as a privilege for their lapdogging.

    Iran wanted to buy Airbus badly, how did it work out?

    So, yeah, specialties. Those specialties that can not be replaced – for master races.
    And those that can easily – for lapdogs.

    New Zealand can produce good beef. But so can Brazil and Argentina. And Ukraine too.
    But Brazil can not produce irreplaceable large cargo aircrafts. And even mid-size they can not produce independently.

  137. All nations are completely artificial along with the gods, ideologies, fiat money & all the rest if the human fictions. If humans went extinct overnight would the US, Russia et al still exist? No, nor would their thousands of gods.

    That little trick with the maps can be done with many countries. The US is a fine example. 1st map = 13 colonies – keep adding new maps for every new state they added after France paid for & won US independence & include the theft/conquest of Mexican territory & Hawaii.

    The Ukraine is a huge basket case made much worse by the US, but your (Orlov too) Rabid Russian nationalism blinds you. IOW, like the empires propagandists, you too are spinning a narrative, albeit more truthful than empires, but a narrative (emotional) nonetheless.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  138. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:

    And it means nothing that ukraine is a top grain producer? The dead don’t produce anything. Farming is an industry.
    https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2019/07/02/ukraine-takes-worlds-largest-grain-exporter-title-from-russia-a66250

    Also, check construction spending:
    https://tradingeconomics.com/ukraine/gdp-from-construction
    click on 10 year

    It looks like to me that there is too much activity there in various sectors to conclude that it is dead or dying. It isn’t dead or dying.

    • Replies: @Arioch
    , @Gerard2
  139. Arioch says:
    @Dr Scanlon

    Maybe we just compare real Ukraine with what it was promised to become?

    Michael Saakashvili, 2014-08-26, “Exactly one year from today Ukraine would send humanitarian aid to Russia. Mark my words.”. I am still trying to find that aid around me, no luck…

    There also was a much more extended timetable, year by year, how Ukraine would rocket to the future and how Russia would fall down to middle ages. Wanted to re-read it but could not find.

  140. @Anon

    Or yea, sure. Even Ukrainian statistics (which in terms of reliability might be somewhat better than Nostradamus, at least sometimes) report 53 births for 100 deaths, with the population shrinking due to this differential alone by more than 200,000 per year. If you count in emigration, the picture becomes very bleak. Millions work in Russia, Poland, and elsewhere. Mind you, temporary emigration for work easily becomes permanent. For example, I have a cousin who used to live in Lvov. He worked in Russia for 20+ years, and since 2014 never visited Ukraine. I guess he is still counted, as he remains a Ukrainian citizen.

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  141. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    OK, let’s go to the original of the constitution ‘ratified’ by “His Majesty the King of Sweden” (cum consensu S-ae R-ae Maiestatis Sueciae, Protectoris Nostri/with the consent of His Majesty the King of Sweden, our protector):

    “It is no secret that Hetman Bohdan Khmelnytsky of glo­rious memory, with the Zaporozhian Host, took up arms and began a just war against the Polish Commonwealth for no other reason (apart from rights and liberties) except their Orthodox faith, which had been forced as a result of various encumbrances placed on it by the Polish authorities into union with the Roman church. Similarly, after the alien new Roman reli­gion had been eradicated from our fatherland, he with the said Zapo­rozhian Host and Ruthenian [Rossiaca] people, sought and submitted him­self to the protection of the Muscovite tsardom for no other reason than “that it shared the same Orthodox religion”. Therefore, if God our Lord, strong and mighty in battle, should assist the victorious armies of His Royal Majesty the King of Sweden to liberate our fatherland from the Muscovite yoke of slavery, the present newly elected Hetman will be bound by duty and put under obligation to take special care that no alien religion is introduced into our Ruthenian [Rossiacam] fatherland. Should one, however, appear anywhere, either secretly or openly, he will be bound to extirpate it through his authority, not allow it to be preached or dissem­inated, and not permit any dissenters, MOST OF ALL THE ADHERENTS OF DECEITFUL JUDAISM, to live in Ukraine, and will be bound to make every possible effort that only the Orthodox faith of the Eastern confession, under obedi­ence to the Holy Apostolic See of Constantinople, be established firmly for ever and be allowed to expand and to flourish, like a rose among thorns, among the neighbouring countries following alien religions, for the greater glory of God, the building of churches, and the instruction of Ruthenian [Rossiacis] sons in the liberal arts. And for the greater authority of the Kievan metropolitan see, which is foremost in Little Russia [Parva Rossia], and for a more efficient administration of spiritual matters, His Grace the Hetman should, after the liberation of our fatherland from the Muscovite yoke, obtain from the Apostolic See of Constantinople the original power of an exarch in order thereby to renew relationship with and filial obedi­ence to the aforementioned Apostolic See of Constantinople, from which it , was privileged to have been enlightened in the holy Catholic faith by the preaching of the Gospel”.
    “neque ignotum est, gloriosae me­moriae Ducem Theodatum Chmielniccium cum Exercitu Zaporoviensi non ob aliam causam praeter iura libertatis commotum fuisse iustaque contra Rempublicam Polonam arma arripuisse, solum pro Fide sua Orthodoxa, quae va­riorum gravaminum compulsu a potestate Polonorum coacta fue­rat ad unionem cum Ecclesia Romana; post extirpatam quoque e patria Neoromanam exoticam Religionem, non alio motivo cum eodem Exercitu Zaporoviensi genteque Rossiaca protectione Imperii Moscovitici dedisse et libere se subdidisse, solum ob Religionis Orthodoxae unionem. Igitur modernus neoelectus lllustrissimus Dux, quando Dominus Deus fortis et potens in praeliis iuvabit felicia sacrae S-ae R-ae Maiestatis Sueciae arma ad vindicandam patriam nostram de servitutis iugo Moscovitico tenebitur et debito iure obstringetur singularem volvere curam fortiterque obstare, ut nulla exotica Religio in patriam nostram Rossiacam introducatur, quae si alicubi clamve , palamve apparuerit, tune activitatem suam extirpandae ipsi debebit, praedicari ampliarique non permittet, asseclis eiusdem, PRAESERTIM VERO PRAESTIGIOSO IUDAISMO cohabitationem in Ucraina non concedet et omni virium conatu sollicitam impendet curam, ut sola et una Orthodoxa Fides Orientalis Confessionis sub obedienta S-tae Apostoiicae sedis Constantinopolitanae in perpetuum sit firmanda, atque cum amplianda gloria Divina, erigendis ecclesiis exercendisque in artibus liberalibus filiis Rossiacis dilatetur, ac tanquam rosa inter spinas, inter vicina exoticae Religionis Dominia virescat et florescat. Propter vero majorem authoritatem primariae in Parva Rossia sedis Metropolitanae Kiiovensis faciliorique in Spiritualibus regimine, impositam sibi idem Illustrissimus Dux vindicata patria nostra de iugo Moscovitico geret provinciam cir­ca procurandam et impertiendam a sede Apostolica Constantinopolitana Exarchicam primitivam potestatem, ut hoc actu renovetur relatio et filialis patriae nostrae obedientia ad praefatam Apostolicam sedem Constantinopolitanam, cuius praedicatione Evangelii in Fide Sancta Catholica illuminari firmarique dignata est”.
    ТHЕ PYLYP ORLYK CONSTITUTION, [email protected]://www.lucorg.com/block.php/block_id/26

    And it is not ‘panageric’ but ‘panegyric’.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @RadicalCenter
  142. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > Also, check construction spending – click on 10 year

    ….now how can i account there for the fact, that UAH in 2013 costed three times more than UAH in 2015 ?

    > Farming is an industry.

    Grain industry – is low added value one, it is highly competitive market because grain from any country on Earth is just grain.

    USSR used to buy grain, as it sponsored bread production and peasants all around were buying bead to feed their hens, goats, pigs, etc. Official meat production was large too.

    It is definitely better to export at least something than nothing. But it also is better to export high added value goods.

    Before WW1 a minister of Russian Empire said “Let our peasants starve but we will export all the grains we contracted” – few years later Russian Empire ceased to exist.

    In 1931 and 1932 Stalin tenfold decreased then banned grains export breaking the contracts. 15 years later USSR won WW2.

    Franlky, it is just weird that Ukraine and Russia together produce most world’s traded grain, like there is no other fertile soil on Earth. Also Russia and Ukraine are both to the north from USA, so USA should be able to produce more grains in its warmer climate. Why isn’t USA world #1 grains exporter?

    This is not grains, it is more added-value product and…
    https://www.dw.com/en/how-ukrainian-poultry-becomes-eu-produce/a-49125767

    …and EU just whimsically bans Ukrainian meat beyond some arbitrary quota.
    EU will easily find where to buy meet.
    Can Ukraine reciprocate by banning Airbus or Boeing purchases? I wonder…
    EU can pressure Ukrainian government, and Ukraine can do little in defense.

  143. Gerard2 says:
    @Anon

    LOL…Ukrainian “construction” Industry?!! Are you serious you cretin?

    It’s basically non-existent. Where are the new houses? where are the new roads or quality roads?….or even basic quality roads. I can’t even think of ONE improvement to Kiev metro in the last 5 years….in Moscow there has been about a billion new stations and track layed.

    Throughout Russia there are great infrastructure projects occurring of have occurred in the last few years….in Banderastan…literally nothing. Where is the credit/mortgages being handed out? Nowhere

    Even in your useless statistic that you link, hilariously the joke number you list of GDP from construction is alarmingly shit…..something like 900 million USD per year! How much of that is fake or goes into thin air?

    Russia is , I would guess, is quite literally about 80-140 times more GDP from construction…..not even including World Cup projects or Crimea ( would not be much surprised if Banderatards officially include RF government expenditure on Crimea infrastructure as their own GDP in order to narrow the pitifully large gap.

    But there is no need to even guess…it’s just basic knowledge about Ukraine

    Belarus with 1/4th of the population gets 2 or 3 times more money from construction you dummy

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  144. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    Trying to make this document relevant in the the year 2019, I spot this interesting admonishment:

    His Grace the Hetman should, after the liberation of our fatherland from the Muscovite yoke, obtain from the Apostolic See of Constantinople the original power of an exarch in order thereby to renew relationship with and filial obedi­ence to the aforementioned Apostolic See of Constantinople, from which it , was privileged to have been enlightened in the holy Catholic faith by the preaching of the Gospel”…

    So, after Ukraine’s long hiatus as a submerged nation within that atheistic monstrocity known as the Soviet Union, it has recently obtained from the Apostolic See of Canstantinople the right to its own exarch (church) to renew its historic relationhip with the Apostolic See from which it originally etablished its mandate to preach the gospel. Hallelujah!

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  145. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    I couldn’t read anything from there, Russo dog. Ukraine is the name which first appeared in the 17th century (1654 to be exact I believe) and it was a name Muscovite Czarist scum imposed on the heartland of the Rus people. I cannot bother to address all lies you spit there, so I’ll leave it the one I just mentioned. Besides they were already addressed on this thread already. Repeating is what Russo dogs do in the hopes of forcing their way, it is not my habit.

    • Troll: Seraphim, RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Arioch
  146. Malacaay says:
    @Gerard2

    Clown, Ukranian land is all what matters. Why are you using double avatars. You were posting as “Arioch” a post or couple before. Anyone with hald a brain can see it’s the same imbecilus behind those blathering writings.

  147. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Would you be very disappointed to know that Orlyk made attempts from his exile to obtain a pardon from His Tsarist Majesty, like many of his former comrades, blaming all on Mazepa?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  148. Malacaay says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Population is adjusting to its proper and natural size. It’s always better to have fewer people (that is less population), than more. Anyone with any brain will instantly know why. Do you know, Russo, hmm? I bet you don’t. Russos have never been genuine thinkers; you have ever copied and mimicked Europeans. That copying behavior proved to be an advantage for you in many ways, as you managed to profit enormously in dealings with Asians with European knowledge and also to avoid ruin which Europeans were subjected to following Vatican’s universal libtard gospel of “Enlightenment.” How intriguing that you don’t want to follow Europe down the path of libtard ruin and degeenration as you followed them on the path of advancement and expansion. But don’t kind youself, Russo. You are not material from which authenticity and ingenuity can arise. You are just analysts.

    • Troll: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Arioch
  149. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    It is not big surprise that you can not read.
    Reading is for civilized people, so it naturally is a strain for you.

    The ukraine – borderlands – is Polish term that Russia just borrowed and continued using.

    And i never used Gerard2 nickname anywhere.

    You can not read, you can not discuss anything essential, you can only bark hoe you like one names and hate other names.
    Actually, you are very good demonstration why EuroMaidania is dying as modern developed country it was turned to under USSR umbrella and is going full steam back to its natural medieval state of mind and life. Enjoy you ride!

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  150. Malacaay says:

    *kid yourself — correction of my previous comment.

    I see that rodent Seraphimo is following me and out of helpnessness trolling my arguments without countering them in any way, shape or form with own argument. Come out and say whatever you want to say, providing you have an argument. Don’t be afraid. I won’t bite you. I’ve always found rodents to be unworthy of my fury. Cowards do tend to hurt themselves though, for they cannot deal with the frenzy well: too much stressful, disturbing and fear-causing; not at all what their feeble being was made for; and it induces them to pass out all too often also. Just have an argument and I am sure you’ll be fine.

    • Troll: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Seraphim
  151. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

    Imbecile, I personally addressed you 3 times already (and a couple times other posters) that lands of Kievan Rus were the birthplace of Rus people in the 9th century, it’s not “borderland.” Borderland is what Muscovite Czarists designated it to be.

    And you did use that other avatar name. It’s plain that the same person was writing those blathering sentences. I don’t think you are Russian though. They tend to be way more honest and honorable kind. You are just something of very low integrity and extremely stupid too.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  152. Malacaay says:

    I think this would be a good opportunity to remember how communist Soviets tried to destroy Ukranian nation, to colonize and turn them into Russkies.

    The mass murder of peoples and of nations that has characterized the advance of the Soviet Union into Europe is not a new feature of their policy of expansionism, it has been a long-term characteristic even of the internal policy of the Kremlin one which the present masters had ample precedent for in the operations of Tsarist Russia. It is indeed an indispensable step in the process of ‘union’ that the Soviet leaders fondly hope will produce the ‘Soviet Man’, the ‘Soviet Nation’ and to achieve that goal, that unified nation, the leaders of the Kremlin will gladly destroy the nations and the cultures that have long inhabited Eastern Europe. What I want to speak about is perhaps the classic example of Soviet genocide, its longest and broadest experiment in Russification the destruction of the Ukrainian nation. This is, as I have said, only the logical successor of such Tsarist crimes as the drowning of 10,000 Crimean Tatars by order of Czarina Catherine, the mass murders of Ivan the Terrible’s ‘SS troops’ the Oprichnina; the extermination of National Polish leaders and Ukrainian Catholics by Nicholas I; and the series of Jewish pogroms that have stained Russian history periodically. And it has had its matches within the Soviet Union in the annihilation of the Ingerian nation, the Don and Kuban Cossacks, the Crimean Tatar Republics, the Baltic Nations of Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia. Each is a case in the long-term policy of liquidation of non-Russian peoples by the removal of select parts. As long as Ukraine retains its national unity, as long as its people continue to think of themselves as Ukrainians and to seek independence, so long Ukraine poses a serious threat to the very heart of Sovietism. It is no wonder that the Communist leaders have attached the greatest importance to the Russification of this independent[-minded] member of their ‘Union of Republics’, have determined to remake it to fit their pattern of one Russian nation. For the Ukrainian is not and has never been, a Russian. His culture, his temperament, his language, his religion all are different. At the side door to Moscow, he has refused to be collectivized, accepting deportation, even death. And so it is peculiarly important that the Ukrainian be fitted into the Procrustean pattern of the ideal Soviet man.

    The attack has manifested a systematic pattern, with the whole process repeated again and again to meet fresh outbursts of national spirit. The first blow is aimed at the intelligentsia, the national brain, so as to paralyse the rest of the body. In 1920, 1926 and again in 1930^1933, teachers, writers, artists, thinkers, political leaders, were liquidated, imprisoned or deported. According to the Ukrainian Quarterly of Autumn 1948, 51,713 intellectuals were sent to Siberia in 1931 alone. It is conservatively estimated that at least 75% of the Ukrainian intellectuals and professional men in Western Ukraine, Carpatho-Ukraine and Bukovina have been brutally exterminated by the Russians. Going along with this attack on the intelligentsia was an offensive against the churches, priests and hierarchy, the ‘soul’ of Ukraine. The third prong of the Soviet plan was aimed at the farmers, the large mass of independent peasants who are the repository of the tradition, folklore and music, the national language and literature, the national spirit, of Ukraine. The weapon used against this body is perhaps the most terrible of all starvation. Between 1932 and 1933, 5,000,000 Ukrainians starved to death, an inhumanity which the 73rd Congress decried on 28 May 1934.
    .
    .
    .
    https://www.ucc.ca/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/lemkin.pdf

    https://arrow.dit.ie/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1138&context=ijass

    https://mfa.gov.ua/mediafiles/files/misc/2017-11-01/book10.pdf

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Arioch
    , @Gerard2
  153. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    That your link says:

    During its existence, Kievan Rus’ was known as the “land of the Rus’” (Old East Slavic: Рѹ́сьскаѧ землѧ, from the ethnonym Рѹ́сь; Greek: Ῥῶς; Arabic: الروس‎ al-Rūs), in Greek as Ῥωσία, in Old French as Russie, Rossie, in Latin as Russia (with local German spelling variants Ruscia and Ruzzia), and from the 12th century also Ruthenia

    Q.E.D.

    “Kievan Rus” is a made up term, invented centuries after the events, by people being very remote ancestors (if not outright Germans) to that state.

    It was just a period in Russia, when the capital city already moved from Novgorod to Kiev, but did not yet moved from Kiev to Vladimir(translation: world ruler).

    Just like Poroshenko’s Ukraine is not different state from Zelensky’s Ukraine but just a fleeting period.

    > It’s plain that the same person was writing those blathering sentences.

    No I did not, but you have so much delusions already that one more definitely would not hurt.
    And if you would crack up your drugs doze you would probably see even more “plain” phantoms.
    Way to go! Enjoy your la-la-land.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
  154. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    EuroMaidania proponent preaching:

    > It’s always better to have fewer people (that is less population), than more

    Well, since it goes about EuroMaidania population – I won’t concur.

    It was estimated that after destruction of industrial and high added value economy in ex-Ukraine, the peasantry living off their precious Chernozyom and disallowed to even sell the fruits of it – well, they would have sustainable maximum of about 5 millions. Evil USSR bred them heavily, upping Ukrainian population to 50 millions. But – the modern western thinker tells as, less is better. And 5 million Ukrainians after EuroMaidan would be 10 times better than 50 million Ukrainians before EuroMaidan.

    Well, this time – I agree.

    I wonder if Ukrainians themselves knew back in 2013 that was the plan for making them Ukrainians “always better”, but who cares indeed 😀

  155. Malacaay says:

    As a Soviet politicianKosior declared in Izvestiia on 2 December 1933,‘Ukrainian nationalism is our chief danger’, and it was to eliminate that nationalism, to establish the horrifying uniformity of the Soviet state that the Ukrainian peasantry was sacrificed. The method used in this part of the plan was not at all restricted to any particular group. All suffered men, women and children. The crop that year was ample to feed the people and livestock of Ukraine, though it had fallen off somewhat from the previous year, a decrease probably due in large measure to the struggle over collectivization. But a famine was necessary for the Soviet and so they got one to order, by plan, through an unusually high grain allotment to the state as taxes. To add to this, thousands of acres of wheat were never harvested, and left to rot in the fields. The rest was sent to government granaries to be stored there until the authorities had decided how to allocate it. Much of this crop, so vital to the lives of the Ukrainian people, ended up as exports for the creation of credits abroad. In the face of famine on the farms, thousands abandoned the rural areas and moved into the towns to beg food. Villages of a thousand had a surviving population of a hundred; in others, half the populace was gone, and deaths in these towns ranged from 20 to 30 per day. Cannibalism became commonplace.

    As C. Henry Chamberlain, the Moscow correspondent of the Christian Science Monitor, wrote in 1933:
    ‘The Communists saw in this apathy and discouragement, sabotage and counter-revolution, and, with the ruthlessness peculiar to self-righteous idealists, they decided to let the famine run its course with the idea that it would teach the peasants a lesson. Relief was doled out to the collective farms, but on an inadequate scale and so late that many lives had already been lost. The individual peasants were left to shift for themselves; and much higher mortality rate among the individual peasants proved a most potent argument in favor of joining collective farms.’

    The fourth step in the process consisted in the fragmentation of the Ukrainian people at once by the addition to the Ukraine of foreign peoples and by the dispersion of the Ukrainians throughout Eastern Europe. In this way, ethnic unity would be destroyed and nationalities mixed. Between 1920 and 1939, the population of Ukraine changed from 80% Ukrainian to only 63%. In the face of famine and deportation, the Ukrainian population had declined absolutely from 23.2 million to 19.6 million, while the non-Ukrainian population had increased by 5.6 million.When we consider that Ukraine once had the highest rate of population increase in Europe, around 800,000 per year, it is easy to see that the Russian policy has been accomplished.

    Now you know why Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russos. Isn’t it fabulous how the opposite effect of intended that communist scum policy produced? Noone ever answered for these crimes, for Russo genocide of Ukrainian people. Instead Russos feel entitled to steal from Ukranians. It’s no surprise (except for imbeciles that is) that Ukrainians joined Europeans in attack on Soviet communist blight. It is no surprise that Ukrainians want anything to do with fake Russkies now as they didn’t 70 years ago.

  156. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    > to remember how communist Soviets tried to destroy Ukranian nation

    > drowning of 10,000 Crimean Tatars by order of Czarina Catherine

    Today I learned that Crimean Turks were Ukrainians and Czarina Catherine was evil commie!

    Go on, reveal more!

    Meanwhile real Communist powers cracked down on everything Russian, which they saw as competing ideology, and ruthlessly promoted everything not-Russian while quoting and limiting everything Russian – just like EuroBanderian do today.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korenizatsiya
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainization

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  157. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    What’s the matter? Not much “dissapointed” in seeing the sentiments expressed within your comment #143 coming to life within Ukraine’s religious life today?

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  158. Malacaay says:

    *doesn’t want… – correction of the previous post.

    Most recent famines did not occur due to overpopulation and a subsequent lack of food or as a result of natural disaster. Rather they ‘always include elements which are either directly political – a deliberate act of political will – or indirectly political – a failure to intervene to prevent famine, or famine as an unintended by-product of government policy’ (Devereux, 1993, p. 129). The devastating famine that rampaged in the Ukraine SSR during the collectivisation under Stalin has been named by the Ukrainians as Holodomor, ‘from moryty holodom ‘to kill by means of starvation.’’ David Marcus has classified these intentional governmental behaviours to create famine conditions as ‘faminogenic’ – a term coined by him – and argues that those government officials ‘should be considered some of history’s worst criminals.’ Devereux states: “Famine has resulted primarily from government policies that have been implemented in order to accomplish massive collectivisation of agricultural production and to secure central government control over productive regions of the country where indigenous peoples have developed strong anti-government resistance (Devereux, 1993, p. 136).

    The numbers of people believed to have died during this period of time vary greatly in the various academic sources, a fact which can be ascribed to insufficient data or improper use of statistics. In any case, estimates range between five and ten million deaths due to starvation or other famine-related illnesses, more than one third being children. The 1932-33 Ukrainian famine was first described as genocide by the Polish-Jewish scholar and lawyer Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term ‘genocide’ in 1944. He portrayed the Ukrainian famine as genocide in the 1950s, in the last chapter of his unpublished book History of Genocide. Not only did Stalin try to obliterate Ukrainian culture by mass starvation, he also persecuted and killed bearers of Ukrainian cultural memory, thus attempting to destroy the very foundations of Ukraine cultural heritage. He dismantled the education system and adjusted it forcefully to the Russian system.

    Robert Conquest(1986) estimated the following casualties:
    Peasant dead: 1930-37 11 million
    Arrested in this period dying in camps later 3.5 million
    TOTAL 14.5 million
    Of these:
    Dead as a result of dekulakization 6.5 million
    Dead in the Kazakh catastrophe 1 million
    Dead in the 1932-3 famine:
    In the Ukraine 5 million
    In the N. Caucasus 1 million 7 million
    Elsewhere 1 million

  159. APilgrim says:

    Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Semyon Vindman (né Aleksandr Semyonovich Vindman) and his identical twin brother, Yevgeny, were born to a Jewish family in the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic, Soviet Union. After the death of their mother, the three-year-old twins and their older brother, Leonid, were brought to New York in December 1979 by their father, Semyon (Simon). They grew up in Brooklyn’s ‘Little-Odessa’ neighborhood. The twins appear briefly with their maternal grandmother in the Ken Burns documentary The Statue of Liberty. Vindman speaks fluent Russian, Ukrainian (& probably Hebrew).

    I will posit that Vindman holds citizenship in: Ukraine, USA, & Israel. Dual-Citizens violate US Law, to wit the 1940s Nationality Act. I will NOT delve into the tangled loyalties, ambitions and/or ‘greatness’ expectations of Colonel Vindman in this post.

    Beginning in 2008, Vindman became a Foreign Area Officer specializing in Eurasia. In this capacity he served in the U.S. embassies in Kiev, Ukraine, and Moscow, Russia. Returning to Washington, D.C. he was then a politico-military affairs officer focused on Russia for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. Vindman served on the Joint Staff at the Pentagon from September 2015 to July 2018.

  160. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    Imbecile, those were all quotes from Raphael Lemkin, a professor born in those lands, who lived there and studied the matter (I added the links to his work).

    How could this happen with masonic communists who apparently stood for “the people?”

    Only Mongols managed to cause more ravage than masonic blight. This is what USSR did.

    Apparently communist gov took fruits of their labour and decided what to do with it. It sold some of the grain and left the rest to rot. Don’t play stupid, communist trash apologist.

    https://www.norkarussia.info/famine-1932-1933.html

    • Replies: @Arioch
  161. Malacaay says:

    This is what Ukraine was before it lost Rostov region to Tatars:

    Now why do you think this is never mentioned in propaganda writings of Russo dogs like this one Tatar Slacker wrote, hmm?

  162. APilgrim says:

    The Honorable Gordon David Sondland, United States Ambassador to the European Union, is probably ending his stint, today.

    Ambassador Sondland was born to a Jewish family in Seattle, Washington, the son of Frieda (Piepsch) and Gunther Sondland. His mother fled Europe before the Second World War to Uruguay, where after the war she reunited with his father, who had served in the French Foreign Legion. In 1953, the Sondlands relocated to Seattle where they opened a dry-cleaning business. Sondland has a sister 18 years his senior. He attended the University of Washington but dropped out and became a commercial real estate salesman.

    Does Ambassador Sondland hold dual-citizenship? Dual citizenship violates the 1940 Nationalities Act.

  163. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    So, your map just confirms my words.
    The most hurt regions were predominantly Russian and pro-Russian ones.

    Including Krasnodar region with was not part of Ukraine even in wildest Lenin-Khruschev dreams.

    As we move to westward, towards Lwow and Galicia, the number of victims decreases.

    Ergo, those famines were the ethnocide ukraino-communists committed against Russians.

    Just the same ethnocide like they did again in 2014. When they openly bragged they will force Russians to obedience by denying them food and fresh water. Except that in 2014 ukraino-communists only held Kiev but not Moscow so their Holodomor 2.0 failed and they had to start bombing cities, like Bandera’s master Hitler did with the very same cities, which eventually failed too.

    And like Germans repent and pay to Jews for their ethnocide, Ukrainians have to repent and pay to Russians, for the ethnocide of Russians they committed in 1930-s and in 2014, which is proven by the map above. And they will do it for decades and centuries, just like Germans do.

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  164. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:

    Arioch and Gerard2

    still no proof of death or dying Ukraine. Just bravado and dismissal of data, and name calling. Sour grapes.

    The population of Russia declined in the 90s. Did it die? No. There is too much activity showing Ukraine isn’t dead and it’s not dying.

    • Agree: Malacaay
    • Replies: @Malacaay
    , @Arioch
  165. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    Either Ukranians are not Russians or Russians are not real Russians since non-Slavic or Nordic nomads are apparently dominant. But they call themselves Russians since they are culturally Russian: speak Russian language and carry Russian names. It appears that nomadic scum calls everything its own. It’s behavior Serbo nomadic Sarmatian dogs exhibit and apparently fake Russo dogs, nomadic Tatars or Huns who call themselves Russkies do too. I bet they call everything “Russian.” Russos are thieving nomads. It a common trait for all nomads.

    It is Russos who have to pay for genocide of Ukrainians and return what they stole, you stupid woman. Your moronic blathering is as disgusting as it is stupid.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  166. Malacaay says:
    @Anon

    Russos want Ukraine to belong to them. Wouldn’t return those small 4 islands which they stole from Japan at the end of WW2 under any circumstance, but have no problem at all trying to take more for themselves… even sending their own soldiers and annexing Ukrainian land. Russos are scum through-and-through. True nomads. Behaviorally speaking. Apparently Ukraine had had of what it has now, around 20 million people, a century ago. It is the return of the stolen loot from the oligarchy they should be thinking about. Almost 3 decades of thievery of everything not nailed down by former communist apparatchiks and their offspring, now shameless capitalist parasites. While at it proclaim all debt odious. Creditors were loaning them fiat paper printed by amero central bank. Let them have printed ukranian paper conjured by ukranian central bank in return. Set the price of paper via a vis paper 1:1 and give scoundrels ukranian paper equally worthy as the other one (only with different pictures and letters).

  167. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    Again it depends upon your definition of “Ukraine” or “Russia”.
    If land swath inhabited by few peasants is enough for you – then no land is ever dead. Perhaps not even sand deserts. Even if there are few cavemen with stone axes in some high hills – this land is not dead yet, right?

    But if you mark is higher – then it depends.

    Russia WAS dying in 1990-s. Somehow it managed to jump from the death spiral coils and started looking for some other trajectory. Ukraine instead doubled down on that spiral. Loop after loop. 2nd Maidan in 2005, 3rd Maidan in 2013, from “second France” to “second Moldova”.

    Ukraine was one of top economic powerhouses of Europe. No more.
    Ukraine was significant science/engineering domain. No more.
    Ukraine was important logistics route. No more.
    Ukraine was capable of exporting hi-tech high added value hard to replace products. No more.

    THAT Ukraine died. Whatever pastoral peasant land emerges in her place – it is different Ukraine.

    You may consider carrots-growing soil-shoveling Ukraine the real authentic one.
    And then that urbanized industrial Ukraine, created during last 150 years by different people from British entrepreneurs to Ukrainian-Soviet genseks – some phantom, impostor.
    And you must say that Ukraine was dead for 150 years and is now coming from the dead. If that is your idea what Ukraine must be to be real.

    But in my book Ukraine came from important to irrelevant, from capable to laughing stock. And that in my book is death.

    • Replies: @Anon
  168. @Arioch

    Germans will likely be fleeing Germany in fairly large numbers as the Islamic / African takeover picks up steam. Same for Swedes from Sweden (soonest), French from France, English from England.

    Ukraine is emptying out and has cheap land and space for new housing to be built, or old houses to be replaced or thoroughly renovated. The Western Europeans need somewhere safer and more civilized to run now that they have invited hostile invaders into their countries. It could be a match made in heaven.

    Ukraine could offer only permanent residency, not citizenship, and it could require that white euro refugees pay in advance for a year or two years of good private medical and dental insurance so that they don’t burden the already-broke Ukrainian treasury.

    Let the Germans and other euro reinvigorate the Ukrainian economy — possibly for a steady two decades or more — by buying supplies and hiring workers and machinery to build or renovate several million houses. They have savings and pensions and can afford a lot in Ukraine. The Ukrainian treasury would take in massive receipts in VAT and other taxes paid by the euro permanent residents and by newly employed Ukrainians working on the refugees’ new homes.

    Ukrainian hospitals and dental offices could upgrade their equipment, staff, training, and capabilities enormously with the ongoing infusion of western euro refugee funds.

    The euro refugees needn’t change the demographic and cultural composition of Ukraine much longer-term, because they will, at least at first, mostly be people age 55-60 and up who can afford to retire and give up their careers in their home countries to flee East. They’ll be beyond their childbearing/raising years. And, if the Ukrainians are wise, the western euros will never be eligible for citizenship (I.e. they will never be able to vote the same suicide for Ukraine as many of them allowed in their home countries).

    Far, far better for Ukrainians to (1) have their own children and (2) stop antagonizing russia and work out favorable energy and other trade deals. But since neither of those is happening or seems likely in the near future, Ukraine should seek a steady infusion of peaceful, reasonably intelligent, culturally compatible white Europeans to help occupy the territory (instead of hostile aliens, the alternative) and spend billions of Euros from Ukrainian businesses and shops.

  169. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    You just published a map proving that early XX century was decade of ethnocide of east-south Russians, committed by ukraino-soviet regime. As part of soviet public and much hyped programme of enforced Ukrainization (in particular, as part of their general programme of Aboriginization – Коренизация).

    Like Germans pay compensation to Jews they ethnocided, Ukraino-Soviets would pay compensation to Russians they ethnocided.

    Ukraine is abomination created by russophobic Lenin, whose vision was bright but false. And like everything created by Trosky-Lenin party out of nothing but their imagination – it would be short living and self-destroying. They stole too much Russian lands under Ukraino-Soviet regimes. Now it is 21st century, and the soviet jail of nations known as the Ukraine is bound to break to pieces it forcefully grabbed but could not digest, as their captives would fight for independence. Like it already happened with British Empire, with Napoleonic Empire, with Third Reich, with Second Reich, etc.

    • Replies: @Malacaay
  170. Malacaay says:

    *half of – correction of previous post.

    This is what the concept of odious debt means:

    Odious debt, also known as illegitimate debt, is when a country’s government misappropriates money it has borrowed from another country. A nation’s debt is considered odious debt when government leaders use borrowed funds in ways that do not benefit its citizens, and to the contrary, often oppress them. Many believe individuals or countries doing the lending must have known, or should have known, of the oppressive conditions upon offering the credit.

    http://faculty.wcas.northwestern.edu/~sjv340/odious_debt.pdf

  171. @AnonFromTN

    Yes, I do hope that Putin is alive, in decent health, and in power ten years from now.

    Hopefully he can lead a Russia to regather some additional small territories that will otherwise be depopulated and then occupied by more dangerous and incompatible alien peoples:

    Latvia and Estonia come to mind. Their european populations are plummeting and aging even worse than those of Russia and the EU. If not brought into the Russian federation, their likely fate is colonization and subjugation by Muslims and Africans spilling over from their precious suicidal EU.

    We will see.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Corvinus
  172. Malacaay says:
    @Arioch

    Still outright lying and idiotically blathering, you despicable woman? See this map of Ukraine below?

    How much Ukrainian land has Russia stolen from Ukraine as of today? Beside Crimea there is whole Rostov region apparently. O you think that is “Russian,” don’t you? Thieving nomads known these fake Russians think that since those lands were the birthplace of Russian people in the 9th century, that said they must belong to Russia therefore it is not Ukrainian but “Russian.”

    • Troll: Seraphim
    • Replies: @Arioch
  173. @RadicalCenter

    Putin would be too old in ten years. What Russia needs is a decent successor, as intelligent and far-sighted as Putin, who would be interested in the country more than in his pocket, like Putin. While traitorous scum like Gorby or Yeltsin has no chance, the greatest danger is that someone nationalistic but not particularly smart rises to the top. Putin understands the key thing: Russia does not need to do anything about the Empire or its EU vassals, they are their own worst enemy. As the saying goes, when you see your enemy committing suicide, do not interfere.

    As far as Baltic vaudeville states are concerned, to the best of my knowledge (which might be faulty: I only visited Russia three times in the last 28 years, spending less than two months total there), most Russian residents are not interested in the Baltics. Now that the port at Ust-Luga works at almost full capacity, Baltics aren’t even useful economically: Russian exports mostly bypass them. Besides, placing NATO troops into these “countries” creates a significant financial and military burden on NATO, which is in the best Russian interests. So, from Russian perspective, the same rule applies to Baltics and Ukraine (whatever remains of it in 5-10 years): “you broke it – you own it”. So, the West would have to do something about those territories. Considering current policies of the EU, they will be populated by Muslims and Africans. Russian attitudes changed a lot in the last decades regarding Baltics and in the last five years regarding Ukraine: a lot of Russians believe that even Muslims and Africans are smarter than aborigines of those wannabe countries, so would make more sensible neighbors.

  174. Arioch says:
    @Malacaay

    “Ukrainian Republic” in 1914 ??? With presidents, parliaments, elections, sure, sure.

    And having western borders in 1914 exactly by the line draw by Georgian dictator Jugashvili-Stalin 25 years later?

    With Lwow being in 1914 city not of Poland (independent Poland in 1914 is yet another gem) but of the said Ukrainian Republic? And Transcarpatian Ruthenia too?

    Wow, so in 1939 Jugashvili-Stalin just restored well known internationally borderlines of the glorious 1914 Ukrainian Republic, right?

    Pal, you are high, you are totally on substances!

  175. Anon[301] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arioch

    You consider Ukraine to be irrelevant, so why spend so much time on it??? Odd isn’t it. Methinks you protesteth too much. You haven’t proven Ukrainians can’t do science, that they don’t have a technical culture, and you haven’t shown that grain production is irrelevant. You’re just insulting farmers, and basic industry. Insult your own stomach. Don’t eat bread. Food is power. All industrial economies are based on agriculture. You dismissing it is just sour grapes.

    Pretend the Ukraine is dead. That’s your business. Ukraine hasn’t lost the ability to do science, engineering, etc. What do you think they do in universities there? Is there no higher education there? I’m not going to believe that. You’re just spinning. Spin away. It’s obvious you’re just dismissing real activity there.

    The finality with which you dismiss the logistics possibilities of the Ukraine is odd. It is a valuable resource. The country can take up the logistics possibilities in the future. They haven’t disappeared. And that is what your argument is based on. Pretending that something can never ever be operational again ever, for any reason, even when the possibilities are obviously still there. Germany bounced back after the war. Russia bounced back after the 90s. But Ukraine? According to you, Ukrainians can’t ever have any future possibilities. You dismiss the real activity that is there, and you dismiss future possibilities. So you can read the future? Do you also pretend to have super human ability to know the future? You don’t like facts, just theatrics. Lots of arm waving and shouting and gesticulating. No proofs. If it is dead in your books, why are you wasting so much effort to prove it, without actually giving any proof? You really do protest too much.

    • Agree: Malacaay
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Arioch
  176. Seraphim says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Can’t you look for yourself? The link gives the complete Constitution, both in the original Latin and in translation, along with a series of additional acts and a sketch of the historical context.

  177. Seraphim says:
    @Malacaay

    What arguments can you oppose to pure malarkey? Afraid of what? Nobody takes you seriously and you waste your breath and our time.

  178. @Anon

    Ukraine hasn’t lost the ability to do science, engineering, etc. What do you think they do in universities there?

    Sorry, have to disappoint. I once had an applicant for a post-doctoral position who got her PhD at Shevchenko University in Kiev (the best in Ukraine). She gave me her paper and the summary of her dissertation. I looked at it. I found that the Materials and Methods section of my weakest paper has more than her whole paper and dissertation based on that pathetic stuff. Naturally, I didn’t even invite her for a talk in my lab. Our undergrads are more qualified than that Ukrainian PhD.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Gerard2
    , @Mr. Hack
  179. @Seraphim

    That personage does not waste my time – I do not read any of his/her/its comments.

  180. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Why would I be disappointed in seeing your puppet master Kolomoisky, the ‘Zhidobandera’, and his puppet playing the presidents, Zelenski admitting (grudgingly) that “They’re stronger anyway. We have to improve our relations”?
    K: “People want peace, a good life, they don’t want to be at war. And you [the U.S.] are forcing us to be at war, and not even giving us the money for it.”
    And begging for money from Russia?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  181. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You can’t seriously contend that example represents the rest! That isn’t logic. Is that the grade of logic you use? “One Ukrainian represents all the rest.” I’m not going to believe it. I doubt Ukrainians in total have lost the ability to do engineering calculations, or how to use the sopromat/copromat.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  182. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    I was responding directly to your quotation in comment #143 regarding how the proposed religious situation within Ukraine at that time (early 18th century) was actually being fulfilled today, and you start blabbering about “Zhidobandera”, “puppetmasters”, “begging for money from Russia”etc;

    I thought that you were slightly more intelligent than somebody who would get so animated and taken in by scurrilous conspiracy theories and the like and could engage in a focused dicussion, rather than veering off into fruitless fantastical backwaters? If you don’t want to dicuss thing in a logical fashion, please don’t waste my time with your Ukrainaphobic lunacy.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  183. Gerard2 says:
    @Malacaay

    Ah yes – the William Randolph Hearst production of the Coca-Cola Sponsored World Series Golodomor in Ukraine in the 1930’s ( complete with photos from the previous famines in the early 1920’s used to falsify one as occurring int he 1930’s)

    Ukraine was run by a Pole during that time you cretin(Kosier)

    There is NO Ukraine.

    BTW…”Well Done” on being as pathetic to offer the Minister of Defence position to an AMERICAN Jew…..to go with the 2 successive jewish Presidents, a Jewish PM who left a few days ago, the American Nazi-hippy bitch ex Health Minister….and coutless other Estonians, Americans, Canadians and Gruzians who run the country now

    • Disagree: Malacaay
  184. Gerard2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Amusingly enough , despite being a prostitute state of the US ,there hasn’t been an upsurge in Ukrop students allowed onto US University courses. Russia still outnumbers them in students there by the same level that it outnumbers Ukraine population. Even worse disproportion of Russia/Ukraine students with the UK. Only Germany are giving Ukrop Students plenty of places on courses

    As it is though, I’m fairly sure the American domination of University Rankings is total BS.
    Actions like that from Stanford help reinforce my view..how dumb to you have to be to offer a scholarship to Navalny’s daughter? It’s an openly corrupt move…..it discredits Navalny even more in front of normal patriotic Russians, it annoys Americanophile/liberast prospective students who feel she has got in unjustly ahead of them

    She could easily have quietly, even corruptly, got into a good University , in a very nice and lively part of America and it wouldn’t have been that bad a story – but in one of the so-called best Universities in the World, with their CIA/State Department Russia “expert” Michael McFaul as lecturer in sunny California………ridiculous

  185. Gerard2 says:
    @AnonFromTN

    This politicians face is not boring………

    https://life.ru/t/%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8/1256173/poluchila_dolzhnost_chieriez_postiel_zamministra_ukrainy_popala_v_sieks-skandal

    Although it does remind me….are ANY of these dickheads in positions of power in Ukraine actually from Galicia?!!

    There was a quite hilariously camp fight between Lyashko and some other politicians recently.

  186. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Strange. I personally know a tenured professor teaching at a local university mostly biology, but chemistry too who matriculated her PhD from the Shevchenko University. The professor is first rate and is in high demand in Europe (France, Sweden, Spain) and during the summer months is a researcher there, all expenses paid. Ukraine really is a poor country if you’re the only successful scientist to have ever left the country!

  187. @Anon

    I know several more people with Ukrainian education (meaning PhD) graduated after 1991 who are under-qualified, to put it mildly. That girl was the most glaring example. I also know people from the Ukrainian SSR who got Soviet education there, and they are fine, no worse than Russians educated at the same time.

    You are welcome to believe whatever you want, people believed all sorts of preposterous things for millennia of human history. A word of caution, though: beliefs do not change the reality. I might believe that I am a tree or Napoleon, but my belief won’t make it so.

    • Replies: @Anon
  188. Corvinus says:
    @RadicalCenter

    “Hopefully he can lead a Russia to regather some additional small territories that will otherwise be depopulated and then occupied by more dangerous and incompatible alien peoples: Latvia and Estonia come to mind.”

    Why on earth would they want to succumb to a Russian oligarch like Putin by giving up their liberties?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  189. @Corvinus

    Their “liberties”, including drunk NATO soldiers peeing on their monuments, are perfectly safe from Russia. BTW, if Putin is an oligarch, I am the Pope.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  190. Seraphim says:
    @Mr. Hack

    Can’t you see that the situations are similar? And they will meet with the same ‘success’ in the end?

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  191. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Some possible objective data:

    https://www.imo-official.org/country_team_r.aspx?code=UKR

    comparison:

    https://www.imo-official.org/results.aspx

    You don’t need to believe it, of course. Not as good as Russia, but not to bad.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @AnonFromTN
  192. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    In 2018, Ukraine had a pretty stellar year at the math olympiad:

    http://novaukraine.org/mathletes-ukrainian-mathematics-team/

    “Ukraine took the absolute 4th place in team rating for the first time in the history of the IMO, giving way only to superpowerful teams – USA, Russia, and China.”

  193. Mr. Hack says:
    @Seraphim

    And what “success” are you talking about? Possiby another 300+ years of imperial Russian domination? Oh, goodie! 🙁

  194. @Anon

    First, participation or results of International Mathematical Olympiad that both of your links deal with do not necessarily reflect the state of science in the country. First, math is only one of the real sciences (others include physics, chemistry, biology, etc.). Second, the results of kids reflect the potential of young people, not the state of scientific research in the country. Remaining scientists in Ukraine (there aren’t many of them left, unless you count bullshitters like Vyatrovich as scientists) bitterly complain that the government does not fund science at the level that can help it survive.

    BTW, many branches of Russian science (e.g., biochemistry and cell biology that I know best) do not perform at the level that would put them on the map. There are very few world-class biochemical or cell biological labs in Russia today, even fewer than in Soviet times. In Ukraine today there are none, zero, zilch, nada. There used to be some decent labs in Ukraine before 1991, but they either died out or the quality of their research went way down. Those who awarded PhD to the girl I mentioned above are not scientists, at least not the honest ones. They are qualified to sweep floors in college, at best.

    • Replies: @Anon
  195. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    More protesteth too much. More slurs, insults, hearsay, flailing away with no data of any kind.

    Those kids have real capabilities. Not simply ‘potential of young people’. dismissing them won’t make them go away. ‘Out damn’d spot’. Too bad the facts won’t go away. To have kids with strong math ability means you have to have institutions and teachers with strong education capability. They don’t learn to cut it in math by playing in the streets. Obviously they will have no difficulty doing engineering calculations, and doing computer science and physical sciences.

    Making comparisons to the former SU is not valid for me. Comparison to other similar sized economies makes more sense. Ukraine population is similar to Colombia, Spain, Argentina, Uganda, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq. Looking at those countries, the capabilities of Ukraine don’t look too bad. Certainly not looking like Ukraine is dead.

    Why would any one think that Ukraine must be compared to much larger economies??? The other guy was doing that too. saker is way off to make such comparisons.
    Comparing Ukraine to US, China, Russia, or prior SU or UkrainianSSR for me is not a valid comparison. The economics are too different.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Arioch
  196. Anon[231] • Disclaimer says:

    It’s obvious what is going on is simply a political, prejudicial smear and dismissal of the Ukraine and Ukrainians rather than any kind of balanced assessment of capabilities and reality.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack, Malacaay
  197. @Anon

    Yes, those kids certainly had good teachers. It is quite likely that their math teachers were educated in the Ukrainian SSR. I hear from a lot of people in Russia that the quality of the teachers who graduated in Soviet times tends to be better than of those who graduated later. I got my school education in Ukrainian SSR and can’t complain about it. Today Lugansk, where I went to school, is in Lugansk People’s Republic, and judging by recent polling of the population, its chances or returning to Ukraine are about as great as my chances of living 500 years. Ukrainian bomb hit the school I went to, and Ukrainian shell hit the library where I used to borrow books when I went to school. Luckily, a few years ago Ukrainian troops were pushed by freedom fighters far enough from Lugansk, so they can’t shell it any more.

    Comparing Ukraine to US, China, Russia, or prior SU or UkrainianSSR for me is not a valid comparison.

    Sorry, but Ukraine started by Ukrainian SSR becoming independent. It had what it had, and lost what it lost, including a big chunk of the population and economy.

    You are welcome to believe anything you want. People have a long history of believing the most preposterous things. However, even fervent beliefs don’t change the reality. That’s why all societies have lunatic asylums.

    • Replies: @Anon
  198. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “Their “liberties”, including drunk NATO soldiers peeing on their monuments, are perfectly safe from Russia.”

    Indeed, if both remain independent nations. Otherwise, Oligarch Putin and his cronies will have their way with each country. You can’t be that naive…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  199. @Corvinus

    Maybe I cannot be that naïve, but you apparently can.

    Thing is, Putin is less of an oligarch than every one of the last three US presidents, not to mention the real movers and shakers, like Soros and his ilk.

    As for Baltics, Russia is too fastidious to touch any of them with a ten-foot pole. They are at liberty to die out any way they wish (https://www.americansecurityproject.org/demographic-decline-a-tangible-threat-to-the-baltic-states/).

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  200. Anon[864] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Looked up some universities in NCBI.

    some small number of thousands of articles. Some NIH grant listed too, using filter in PMC.

    national technical university of ukraine
    Taras Shevchenko National University
    460 + articles with NIH filter. A few thousand without NIH filter. Scifinder would have those, plus more.

    Obviously they are still doing science. So far you have not been able to show Ukraine is dead, even in science that according to you cannot be operating. Your perspective is more clear with your explanation of background.

    You can compare from your experience, what was then to what is now, but that is from your experience. What is realistic for current Ukraine??? conditions for UkSSR were total different than what is possible today. Within the context of the SU, the UkSSR had capabilities that cannot exist now. So in that sense they cannot be compared. Do you see that they are two different concepts?

    So I can see how you can say that you compare them. And I don’t disagree with that. But the comparison about what is realistic for Ukraine is different now because the SU is gone.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  201. @Anon

    Search of PubMed with “Moscow State University” yields 21,642 hits. Search with “Harvard University” yields 102,451 hits. And these are just individual universities. I let the readers make their own conclusions.

    • Replies: @Anon
  202. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “Thing is, Putin is less of an oligarch than every one of the last three US presidents…”

    LOL, indeed, you are naive.

    https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/02/01/putin-from-oligarch-to-kleptocrat/

    “They are at liberty to die out any way they wish”.

    Assuming they will die off. Last time I checked, the Baltics are white peoples. Why you be hatin’ on our allies? Didn’t you get the memo–no punching on the white?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  203. Anon[864] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Collaborations expand publications for places like Harvard. Networking. Remember what I was saying about comparison to US or Russia, or China? Picking top producers, top funded institutions, readers will know what you’re doing. Ukraine isn’t top tier, but it isn’t zero. I never said it was top tier. Calling top tier universities ‘just individual’ you must know is a misdirection. When you look at the articles, you will see additional universities, for Harvard at least. Moscow state, I don’t know.

    Some of the physics papers are famous for numbers of authors, and institutions involved, it is a joke, you must know about it. Science and funding is intensely political, so collaborations for grants and papers are political exercises. Peoples names appearing on papers they had nothing to do with. I do know about it.

    Numbers of publications is not a good comparison for me in other ways, since I am familiar with the paper mill activity of research groups. The journals are full of junk. The numbers of really good papers is small. Remember what the editors of NEJM said about medical science publications? The NIH is dumping >~ 30 Billion in to research, and the US public gets more or less nothing out of it, health wise. Those 30 Billions turns into papers. Mostly junk. The health of the US public is declining, but it is getting more expensive all the time. The declining health of the public is partial evidence that the research money is being wasted, it’s not the only thing involved, but it is there.

    I hear this often, “the journals are full of junk”.

    Readers make their own conclusions? Readers cannot possibly make their own conclusions in an informed way if they don’t know about the corruption in science. That’s another discussion for another thread, that doesn’t exist at Unz Review. You yourself should be able to tell many tales about junk science that you see in journals, from US universities.

    As far as the Ukraine is concerned, a great tragedy has occurred, and continues, as you know more about, more intensely than I can ever know. But it looks like to me that there are still signs of life.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  204. @Anon

    I am not a big fan of paper numbers, in fact, you introduced that aspect. I know that a lot of crap gets published. I always tell my grad students that not everything published is true, and not everything true is published. So-called “high profile” journals are the worst offenders. There is even a joke: “even though it was published in Nature, it might still be true”. In my field I know the labs that can be trusted, as what they report reproduce, labs that publish something true and reproducible half the time, as well as labs whose results never reproduce, meaning that they publish BS.

    But that’s not the reason for the deteriorating health of Americans. Here food and agricultural industry (which actually get a lot more tax money than 30 billion, directly and indirectly) are the main culprits. American food is the reason people get fat, sick, and then die. Burger is an adequate symbol of American food: it is high in things that are bad for you, fat and salt, and low in things that are good: vitamins and proteins. Europeans rightly say that if something has more than four ingredients, it is not edible. Look at the ingredients list on any food item produced in the US: it reads like a catalogue of a chemical company. In addition, those who watch TV (the majority of the population) are barraged by ads promoting all this crap.

    As for Ukraine, that tragedy has a name: it committed suicide. You can blame the US, Jews, Nuland (who represents both), but the key thing is that without ridiculous gullibility of the population their tricks wouldn’t have worked. The “signs of life” you talk about are hardly encouraging. It is running around, like a headless chicken, but that does not necessarily mean that it has any future among the living.

    • Agree: Arioch
    • Replies: @Anon
  205. Malacaay says:
    @Seraphim

    I see you are trolling my comments there, Jewish boy. Then I called you out and prove any of my points wrong. In other words I asked for arguments, Jew. As for the seriousness, it’s not “serious” for liberal and communistic trash which you belong to. Those arguments of mine are not liked in your circle, that I am sure. You still haven’t countered my arguments in any way, shape or form. There is not a single argument you provided, Jew. All we can see is your pathetic ad hominem drivel. I asked specifically for argument(s), not for drivel of any kind. Is your reading skill as bad as your reasoning one? But I know it would be too much to expect from libtards or communists to have logical arguments or even historical points.

    • Troll: Seraphim
  206. Malacaay says:

    It’s funny to see Russkies fuming and fantasying about “Ukraine not existing.” Soviet genocide against Ukraine didn’t manage to produce that Russian dream, but they think spewing some illogical, imbecilic comments which are reflecting their fantasies about “Ukraine does not exist” will instead suffice and turn Ukraine into province of theirs, thus steal Ukrainian land and colonize Ukrainian people into Russos. When is Russia going to return Ukranian nuclear weapon it seized with American mediation and help in the 90s? Apparently an “agreement” for public purpose was made between USA and Russia by which Ukraine would give all its nuclear arsenal (Ukraine inherited thousands nuclear warheads after the fall of USSR) and in return Russia made some security assurances by stating it would respect territorial integrity of Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. It’s all there in Budapest agreement or memorandum of security assurances.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Security_Assurances

    Somehow USA, that masonic liberal blight on the planet, made international agreement between itself and Russia by giving Ukrainian nuclear weapons in return for Russo “security assurances.” I bet if Ukraine had its nuclear weapons, Russos wouldn’t even think about stealing their land or having any kind of thieving and colonizing dreams of Ukraine.

  207. Malacaay says:

    Unfortunately, all our ills have been caused by Anglos and Europeans (Russians still haven’t had the time to cause wreckage as they have only come under the control of that merchant city-state of Vatican, i.e. its 13 bloodlines, a century ago), for Europeans and Anglos have been used for centuries by Vatican merchants parading as religious authority (imagine followers of Jesus having banking enterprises and selling absolution of sins; only a complete and utter imbecile could ever think that merchant republic as Vatican was could ever have anything to do with Christian religion) to spread its tentacles around the world and take control of other nations and countries.

    Bishop of Rome never had any authority over Europe, but Europeans gave it to Vatican merchants. And now Vatican merchants are spreading destruction in North America and Europe by promoting its liberal gospel and supporting immigration, sexual deviance, miscegenation and all other evils designed to wreck the God’s creation. Again, what a ardent followers of Jesus’ God these merchants are. French, Russian, Turkish, Chinese and other “revolutions” (be it communistic or nationalistic: in case of Turkish one it was nationalistic while others had communistic revolutions, but they were all marching under the motto of “brotherhoods, equality and `freedom`”; you can only imagine what communistic or liberal notions of freedom mean: it’s just something to entice people to support it, make followers) are all spawned by Vatican. Those mentioned mottos or credos are Jesuit, of Jesuit Order that is.

  208. @Corvinus

    I naïvely thought that humans left the belief in the power of words and incantations in their primeval past. You show that they didn’t. Then, I will tell you only one thing: if I call you a Martian on a few websites, it won’t make you one.

    Technically, the Balts are white. However, they sided with the greatest enemy of all whites, the globohomo, and positioned themselves as bitter enemies of a much greater white nation – Russia. By doing that they forfeited their whiteness. Besides, there are too few of them to really matter.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  209. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    No doubt about the food, as you say. I said the science, research, programs were part of the reason. Not the whole reason. And I will stick to that, the NIH and FDA and CDC are directly involved in the decline of Americans health. The increase in all those autism/brain damaged children is a direct result of NIH supported science. If the non-sensical vaccination programs were stopped, health of population would improve. Also all the psycho-pharmaceutical nonsense should be stopped, that would help improve health. The NIH is in that field up to its’ eyeballs. The NIH cannot be separated from the decline of Americans’ health. It is the NIH FDA CDC complex that is responsible for the vitamin recommendations, that are inadequate. You point out about vitamins, and the NIH is evading responsibility there.

    And so far, as sick as the Ukraine is or maybe, still no proof that it is dead or has committed suicide. No card magician can force the card you are trying to play. You cannot compare the economic possibilities of Ukraine to US, China, EU zone or any other much larger economy. People can see you’re comparisons are not reasonable.

    And you can’t really blame the sheep. It has been known for centuries that a small percentage of the population can force the rest to comply.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  210. @Anon

    Yes, I forgot to mention yet another industry responsible for the deteriorating health in the US – pharmaceutical. They push unnecessary drugs onto people by a variety of underhanded methods, including soft-bribing physicians. They do their best to prevent real cures, so that they can sell their crap to chronic patients for many years. I always tell grad students that pharmaceuticals and weapons companies are in the same business – making money. All they care about is profits, neither cares whether you are alive or dead.

    As far as Ukraine goes, come back in 5-10 years, let’s compare notes then. I disagree about the innocence of the sheep. Russian population was bombarded by relentless pro-globohomo propaganda under traitorous Yeltsin regime in the 1990s, atrocious orders were given to big shots in the military and industry. Yet the Russians revolted as early as 1993. Even though that revolt was drowned in blood by Yeltsin and his accomplices, many leaders in the military and industry actually preserved things that Yeltsin’s accomplices ordered destroyed. That’s the only reason Russia was able to come back within a couple of decades. There was no meaningful pushback against traitors in Ukraine, and there isn’t any today. Maybe Ukraine is not quite dead yet, but it is doomed.

    • Replies: @Anon
  211. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yes, I agree with that. Your characterization of the pharmaceutical system is on target. The over arching policy is commerce, not health. So everyone is supposed to be sick for maximum profits. It is also to prevent people from living into old age, so traditional knowledge is lost. And also so pensions don’t have to be paid. The globohomo system does not want any traditional knowledge. They want an atomist society, of separated, powerless, ignorant individuals, and propaganda.

    Yes, we will see in coming years, if the headless chicken can still produce grain or not. No doubt about the relentless propaganda. It’s everywhere. But you’re not buying it, I’m not buying it, and there are others also not buying it. But people know to not stick their neck out. If you push back against the traitors, you have to do it very carefully. And this is the problem now days with the technology, all the surveillance. You have survived, isn’t that evidence that they have not succeeded in destroying everything and everyone with sense?

    Some people think it is better to be a dead lion than a live dog. Well, I think it is better you survive to carry on and not let your experience be wasted in fights you shouldn’t fight. Fight the fights you need to, not the ones your enemies provoke. If you are fatalistic, you are giving your enemies a gift. Fatalism is a tool for your enemies, don’t give them easy victory.

    • Replies: @Anon
  212. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “I naïvely thought that humans left the belief in the power of words and incantations in their primeval past. You show that they didn’t. Then, I will tell you only one thing: if I call you a Martian on a few websites, it won’t make you one.”

    Do you enjoy speaking gobbledygook?

    “Technically, the Balts are white”.

    No, either they are or they are not white. There is no “technically” here.

    “However, they sided with the greatest enemy of all whites, the globohomo”

    Every single citizen of the Baltic nations? Really, you want to impugn three nations for the conduct of some of their citizens who are gay and their family members/friends/fellow citizens who support them? Simply put, you are other being other than rational.

    Of course, had you done some cursory research, you would find out that the Baltic states have actually opposed the LGBT lobby by way of legislation–Lithuania, for example, passed the Law on the Protection of Minors against the Detrimental Effect of Public Information. The law, which prohibits promotion of sexual relations or concepts of marriage or the family other than as expressly stated in the Lithuanian Constitution and Civil Code. In that same nation, several polls show a consistent 75 percent rating that people would feel uncomfortable if their child dated a person of the same sex. Latvia has also passed similar laws and has similar attitudes.

    “and positioned themselves as bitter enemies of a much greater white nation – Russia.”

    What metrics are involved in determining who is a “greater white nation”? Who decided upon those metrics? Are you not making a personal decision here, one rooted in confirmation bias?

    “By doing that they forfeited their whiteness”.

    That is asinine. YOU are making this determination squarely because of your opposition to people’s own decisions about race and culture. No one “forfeits” their race. Otherwise, using your logic, race is a social construct rather than a biological construct. Is that something you subscribe to?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  213. Anon[259] • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    Of course being foolishly unrealistic, or credulous is also a gift to enemies.

  214. “… crucial recent founding myths….”

    The pathetic thing is that many of those are entirely true. While Putin didn’t want all of Ukraine, he did want that land bridge to Crimea so he could more easily support his theft.

    In one uses Saker’s standard, Russia is an entirely artificial country. It also has far more cracks than Ukraine. Putin is no where near the leader that Saker’s mythology would have one believe, nor is the current iteration of Russia the country Saker wishes it were. Ukraine has held together under circumstances that would have broken Putin’s Russia.

    Saker may wish Ukraine were different than what it actually is, but he would do better to realize that his idol’s country is in the slow process of failure the USSR was in during the late 70s to its fall.

    Grow up Saker.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  215. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > why spend so much time on it?

    Much? perhaps you do not know what MUCH time is, and definitely what it used to be.

    As of now, it is mostly for two factors.
    1) Fun. Who else will tell me about Ukrainian Republic of 1914 ? In a sense it is better than Harry Potter and Tolkien combined.
    2) Plus countering ukrainian murderers, who organised Russian ethnocide in 1930-s and in 2010-s, to fake history and pretend victims, instead of compensating for millions of Russians deaths and uncountable Russian tortures they caused. They should not control narrative.

    > You haven’t proven Ukrainians can’t do science,

    Non-existence can not be proved, it is existence that can and should be. That is the basis of logic.

    Prove me they can.
    What was there in world science that came from EuroUkraine, after 2013 ?

    > that they don’t have a technical culture,

    Again, prove me they can. Show me those technical marverls, the world talks about and queues to buy from EuroUkraine after 2013.

    I already mentioned Motor-Sich, Antonov and YuzhMash, disaster of BTR-4 and T-84 (Strong Europe Tank Challenge 2017 Ukraine used Soviet tanks, for 2018 they decided to ditch “commie tech” and use Ukrainian tanks finally. The results were… Peremoga.). There was fantastic service Ukraine sold to Croatia of their MiG jet fighters. Pre-EuroMaidan Ukraine had some reputation in military STEM field. EuroMaidania driven it int the ground in few short years.

    But okay, you don’t like military tech for indicator of industrial capabilities. Then show something else. Some true indicator of industrial powerhouse EuroMaidania is.

    When China builds wrist watches for Apple, they buy sapphire glasses from Russia. What is there in iWatch from EuroUkraine?
    Boeing and Airbus have design bureus in Russia and purchase titanium parts from Russia. What do they design in and order from EuroUkraine ?

    Russia used to buy railcar carriages from Ukraine. After a series of train catastrophes – it stopped. Not even Ukrainian price dumping compensate for trainwreck losses.

    USA buys space rocket engines from Russia. They also tried to get off the hook and buy rocket engines from Ukraine instead. Served them well, Amero-Ukrainian space rocket blasted on the launching pad.

    Atomic tech. Russia is the ONLY state still pursuing spent Uranian re-use (closed fuel cicle). Is the ONLY state that can buils 1000MWe NPPs with predictable schedule and cost. Has enrichment process so efficient, that even European competitors (UrEnCo) send their uran for enrichment into Russia, being unable to do it themselves. Enrichment by-products are offered for medical services.
    EuroMaidania – promised to finish building Uranium enrichment factory and to recover nukes production – failed on both acounts. What else?

    Ukraine used to be major large ship builder in USSR – what is there on Ukrianian wharfs today? “Ukraine” destroyer? They were building it since 1992 and still did not finish. Oh, sorry, military again. Then what are big civic ships Ukraine builds and exports? Screw “exports”, builds and uses herself?

    Ships, exports… Ukraine does not possess competence to simple repair road bridges in Kiev, the capital city! I do not ask to build something like Crimean bridge from scratch. But may EuroUkraine just repair already existing mundane city viaducs? No, instead Klitchko comes and says “The bridge got tired”. See? Bridges like horses, lie down to have a nap. That is that “technical culture” you say EuroUkraine keeps and develops? Maybe there is some “technical culture” in EuroUkraine, but then it does perfect job hiding it from every observer!

    > and you haven’t shown that grain production is irrelevant.

    “irrelevant” is so vague a term that it is the argument akin to those arguments about angels dancing on a needle tip.

    Ukraine had little-competition high-added-value development and production.
    Ukraine lost it and “made up” for it by little-added-value high-competition production with no development at all.

    BTW, harvesters and agriculture tractors? Russia does them, Belarus does them, what about Ukraine?

    > What do you think they do in universities there?

    Cargo cult, learning how Russia is the sole source of all their problems and call it science.
    At very very best, they are growing engineers for developed nations.

    > It’s obvious you’re just dismissing real activity there.

    Show me RESULTS of that activity.
    Activity for the sake of activity is probably lot of joy, and smooth sailing on state budget waves, too.
    But where is the outcome?
    Do you remember what Richard Feynman wrote about universities teaching physics in Brazil?

    > The finality with which you dismiss the logistics possibilities of the Ukraine is odd. It is a valuable resource. The country can take up the logistics possibilities in the future.

    Then in the future we would talk again. Right now, Ukraine killed its logistics.
    If you kill your son then give birth to another – it does not mean our son was not dead, it jsut mean you managed to get another one.
    Will Ukraine build another one some day in the future? Hopefully. Having Belorussia for a spoiled transport monopoly is last thing Russia needs. But future is future, and today Ukraine roads are wild marsh.

    > Russia bounced back after the 90s.

    It did. But Russia WAS dying in 1990-s.
    Russia made a comeback, to surprise of everyone. Because comebacks are very rare.
    Every comeback is half a miracle. Hoping for it is possible, relying and expecting is not.

    > According to you, Ukrainians can’t ever have any future possibilities.

    This is your very vague interpretation. Quote, what specifics do you mean.

    > You dismiss the real activity that is there

    This activity degraded by quality and diminished by quantity.
    Comparing with what Ukraine used to be, what left is pathetic.

    > You don’t like facts, just theatrics.

    Your only fact is “There are still people living in Ukraine, and they even so something with money, especially thieves and oligarchs, they make LOTS of money move”

    This metric may be a cornerstone improtance fact for you, but surely is not for me

    • Replies: @Seraphim
    , @Anon
  216. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > Comparing Ukraine to …. UkrainianSSR for me is not a valid comparison.

    Wow!

    Actually no, that is the ONLY valid comparison.
    The same place, the same people, just different government.

    Eveyrthing else – France, Germany, Colombia – is approximations.

    • Replies: @Anon
  217. Seraphim says:
    @Arioch

    The spectacular comeback of Russia after the 90s is proof that Russia was not dying in the 90s! How many times Russia ‘died’ in the past only to come back stronger?

    • Replies: @Arioch
  218. Arioch says:
    @Seraphim

    “a thing picked from the floor fast was not dropped”
    i don’t buy this logic, Russia was dying

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  219. @Corvinus

    By larger I am talking exclusively about numbers. The total number of all three Baltic nations put together is smaller than the number of Turks in Germany.

    Race is in the genes. But, in my view, white cucks have no right to consider themselves white. Their race is cucks.

    • Replies: @Arioch
    , @Corvinus
  220. @Quartermaster

    Putin is no where near the leader that Saker’s mythology would have one believe

    By recent polls, ~70% of Russians approve of Putin’s actions. That’s lower than his peak (sky-high 86% approval rating), but higher than any Western leader can boast.

    I don’t advise you to grow up, and that might mean the end of your gainful employment.

  221. Arioch says:
    @AnonFromTN

    No need to feel apologetic!

    Remember:

    It’s always better to have fewer people (that is less population), than more

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/the-independent-ukraines-painful-journey-through-the-five-stages-of-grief/#comment-3567601

    So when you quote numbers, showing Baltic states are steadily depopulating themselves, you show them your love and respect!

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  222. Seraphim says:
    @Arioch

    People love big words. Russia was sick, but not terminally. What was dying was the Communism that some people still regret.

  223. Anon[128] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arioch

    The economics of UkSSR were much different than anything possible for today’s Ukraine. So it cannot be compared. You cannot have possibilities for the Ukraine that existed in the SU. To say that there is such a possibility is not believable. No country of such a size as Ukraine can create competition for Airbus, for example. Do yo seriously believe Ukraine could compete with Airbus??? The points I make in this line anyone should be able to grasp. If you insist that Ukraine can or could compete with Airbus, then no agreement can be reached. The Ukraine competing with the EU. Who will believe that?

    There is probably a semantic problem in this issue, as the UkSSR can be compared to the current Ukraine in various dimensions, things that existed, that now do not, or things that did not exist that now do. But that is a very different concept, or meaning to the word compare than I used above. Is this the source of disagreement? Semantics?

    eg; the former UkSSR had these statistics and capabilities, and we can compare to the current Ukraine, that has different statistics and capabilities. That is a different meaning for the word compare. On that point that you say you can compare former to current, I do agree. But not on economic possibilities that do not exist.

    I actually did not say Ukraine was doing good science. There is some infrastructure there. And there is evidence for it.

    Since you dismiss any kinds of data I have posted, should I post more for you to dismiss? You can’t accept anything as you have made clear.

    Note I have not once said anything is support of the Banderites. Is that why you are so vehement? Do you think that?

    Here is an example your method:

    “> and you haven’t shown that grain production is irrelevant.

    “irrelevant” is so vague a term that it is the argument akin to those arguments about angels dancing on a needle tip. ”

    Irrelevant is vague? In the context it is obvious, as you have so clearly dismissed it. You dismissed, or denigrated the grain production. That means you consider it to be irrelevant. But then perhaps English is not your first language.

    And this thing, I have not said, do not use quote marks for it:
    [start quote]
    Your only fact is “There are still people living in Ukraine, and they even so something with money, especially thieves and oligarchs, they make LOTS of money move”
    [end quote]

    Where did I say it? I did not.

    And this:
    “> According to you, Ukrainians can’t ever have any future possibilities.

    This is your very vague interpretation. Quote, what specifics do you mean.”

    It is because of the finality of death. Didn’t you say for you it was dead? Death is final. That’s all. Is that vague? But then it looks like we have already seen semantics problems. Different language usage.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  224. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “By larger I am talking exclusively about numbers. The total number of all three Baltic nations put together is smaller than the number of Turks in Germany.”

    How many are we talking about here? Do you even have a percentage? What evidence do you have to support your assertion?

    Regardless, focus on the questions posed–What metrics are involved in determining who is a “greater white nation”? Who decided upon those metrics? Are you not making a personal decision here, one rooted in confirmation bias?

    “Race is in the genes”.

    Yet you stated that a white person “forfeits their race” when they do not adhere to your own personal preferences. How is that possible if “race is in the genes”? Either a person is white or they are not white.

    “But, in my view, white cucks have no right to consider themselves white. Their race is cucks.”

    Right, in your view, which is your opinion. So, I ask, what metrics are used to determine who constitutes “white cucks”? Who has acknowledged that these metrics are legitimate and reasonable? Please be specific.

    And, again, you are impugning an ENTIRE group of people for supporting homosexuality, despite the evidence I provided of two of the Baltic States opposing the LGBT agenda.

    Do you enjoy being ignorant?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  225. Anon[128] • Disclaimer says:
    @Arioch

    No, it is not valid for that point I was making: the economics of the SU and the UkSSR cannot exist today for the Ukraine. That is the sense of the use I was making, that they cannot be compared. Do you really believe the Ukraine today has the same economic possibilities as the former UkSSR?

    On all the other points, I agree, that the former UkSSR can be compared to the current one, for all kinds of data, statistics, etc. I haven’t disagreed about that. But if anyone says to me that the Ukraine can compete with EU on things like aircraft industry, or jet engines, well I’m not going to believe it.

    I think this is just a semantic issue. But maybe not, you might believe that the Ukraine could have economic possibilities if it changed politics. But I don’t believe that. Ukraine on its own does have not the economic potential to have competitive aircraft industry.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  226. @Arioch

    Please, tell this to the Balts. They seem to worry that their numbers are dwindling, whereas they are just approaching a perfect state of zero population. They must rejoice.

  227. @Corvinus

    Sorry, I am not the right person for you to have a conversation with. You’d be much better off talking to your psychiatrist. Maybe s/he can help, I can’t.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  228. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “Sorry, I am not the right person for you to have a conversation with. You’d be much better off talking to your psychiatrist. Maybe s/he can help, I can’t.”

    Again, more projection on your part.

    You make statements, are asked to provide evidence to support those statements, and then proceed to offer ad hominem rather than engage in substantive discourse.

    You have every opportunity now to right the ship. Will you?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  229. @Corvinus

    Look, I have neither time nor inclination to engage in sophistry, or in defining and “proving” every word. That boils down to Clinton’s “it depends on what is is”. I have my opinions and I voice them here and elsewhere. Everybody else is entitled to have different opinions. I deeply despise pseudo-nations driven by inferiority complexes. I deeply despise countries that voluntarily become somebody’s vassals. If that is freedom and independence, I am the Pope. End of story.

    • Troll: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  230. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    “Look, I have neither time nor inclination to engage in sophistry…”

    You mean defend YOUR use of fallacious arguments.

    “…or in defining and “proving” every word”.

    Not every word, certain terms that YOU offered.

    “I have my opinions and I voice them here and elsewhere.”

    Opinions are not equal. Some are more valid than others based on evidence and reasoning. Again, answer the questions posed.

    “I deeply despise pseudo-nations driven by inferiority complexes. I deeply despise countries that voluntarily become somebody’s vassals.”

    You’re over exaggerating. Is it not probable that you are a slave to your own confirmation biases?

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  231. @Seraphim

    If you respond to Malakaay you must be the same ignorant than he is.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  232. @Corvinus

    I just noticed that you’ve been flagged: a “Mr. Hack” agreed with you. You might ask, what the heck does it mean? Let me explain using a Russian joke:
    – Have you noticed that flies land on you? I can be mistaken, but the flies can’t.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Corvinus
  233. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    That “Malacaay” personage of unknown gender may or may not be ignorant, but he/she/it is certainly mentally disturbed.

  234. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Your dismal attempts at trying to be funny just don’t make it, Boris (all throwbacks to your sovok past, no doubt). Not only that, but your attempts at humor look like they’re all evolved from a cesspool. I’m sure it’s all been approved by yours and Natasha’s (Ilyana’s) boss at Central, “Fearless Leader”. Here’s your group photo for any readers that are still reading this “thought provoking” thread:

    Can you guess who’s who? 🙂

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  235. @Mr. Hack

    Intellectual level matching “Rocky and Bullwinkle” detected. Diagnosis: incurable. Treatment: euthanasia.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  236. Corvinus says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Do you enjoy Grey Poupon with your red herring?

    Why are you working so hard at avoiding to respond to relevant questions, ones which stimulate debate?

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  237. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I can’t blame you for being so angry. Fearless Leader must have been quite upset with both you and Natasha, being so sloppy and allowing yourselves to be doxed so easily. What next? A Skripal type poisoning to accomplish your “treatment plan”? Make sure that you succeed “Professor”, or the next time your Fearles Leader may call you back to Mother Russia for your own kind of treatment plan. It’s not every spook that gets such a plush assignment in Am☭rika:

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  238. @Mr. Hack

    Stale fantasies betray stale personality. My condolences.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
  239. Anon[128] • Disclaimer says:

    ‘Can’t prove a negative’ or ‘can’t prove non-existence’ … yes you can. It is easy.

    Political operatives use the false meme ‘can’t prove a negative’ to shut down debate, to silence dissent.

    I think I’ve even seen Raevsky use that.

    • Replies: @Arioch
  240. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Guys like you are great to have at funerals – which one were you?…

  241. @Corvinus

    lmao. It’s amusing how our little Brock-bot, Corvinus, tries to ignore relevant facts and pretend that he is in control of all commenting. Such stupidity and arrogance could only come paid for by Mr. Soros’s wallet.

    • Replies: @Corvinus
  242. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > the economics of the SU and the UkSSR cannot exist today for the Ukraine.

    While true, it does not invalidate comparison.

    The same may be said about economics of Ukraine and of “Colombia, Spain, Argentina, Uganda, Algeria, Sudan, Iraq” – they all have different sizes and possibilites. So what?

    It is responsibility of people to find and empower ruling elites.
    It is responsibility of the elites to find allies and unions, in military and in economics.
    It is those unions that facilitate and limit economic possibilites.

    I do not see principled diffirence between those and other decisions, like building or blowing factories, increasing or decreasing taxes, etc.

    Spain and Colombia can not decide its climate or geographic locations.
    They can however decide upon their internal organization and priorities. Or at least struggle to do it.

    Decision to get rid of USSR had a huge impact upon Ukrainian economy.
    So did decision to stay outside CIS.
    So did decition to “associate” with EU.
    Those were decisions just like any others.
    And their impact on economy can rightfully be accounted for in comparison.

    Apart from climate and geography, which nations indeed have no power upon.
    But if you think it is valid to compare Ukraine with Iraq regardless of climate differences which humans can not change, then it is even more valid to compare Ukraine 2019 with Ukraine 1989, as only factors under human power changed.

  243. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > The economics of UkSSR were much different than anything possible for today’s Ukraine. So it cannot be compared. You cannot have possibilities for the Ukraine that existed in the SU.

    They can. It was a decision of Ukraine, elites and people, to get rid of USSR.
    That decision could be wise or unwise, but it was a decision.
    Can we compare economics of Ukraine before and after the EU Association?
    The possibilities that were there in 2013 and in 2015 are very different!
    Should it mean, Ukrainian economics of 2013 and 2015 can not be compared?

    Ukraine *decided* that it does not need the possibilities Soviet Union provided.
    Ukraine *decided* that it will find new, better Unions instead, which will bring new, better possibilities.

    The consequences of that decision influence Ukrainian economics just like any other decisions, including ones of taxation, education, laws enforcing, peace and war and everything else.
    They should not be brushed off in comparison.
    Comparing of economics in Ukraine 1989 and 2019 is no less valid than comparing economics of Ukraine 2012 and 2019.

    > No country of such a size as Ukraine can create competition for Airbus, for example.

    They did not had to create oine, they HAD it, for granted.
    If a country size of France can have Airbus, then so can Ukraine.
    In 1990s their economies were comparable.

    > The Ukraine competing with the EU.

    EU was not given to France for granted, and Airbus was created in 1960-s decades before EU was conceived. There is no sense in abolishing Ukraine from doing what France did.

    If France managed to find or create a union to create a corporation size of Airbus, then so could Ukraine to keep (not even create) corporation of Antonov.

    You also overlook that Antonov had huge cooperation with Russian Ilyushin/Tupolev and due to political lobbying had a warranted market share in Russia.

    So, even as late as 2013 it was not “Ukraine alone” that sustained Antonov, it was Ukraine+Russia that did!
    It was *decision* of Ukraine to prohibit Antonov’s relations with Russia without finding other allies to partner with.
    And assessing that decision by comparing Ukrainian economics before and after the consequences of it arrived is quite valid.

    > On that point that you say you can compare former to current, I do agree. But not on economic possibilities that do not exist.

    Economic possiblities are not some supranatural being descending from heavens.
    They are created by nations. By their cultures. By their elites.

    It was responsibility of Ukrainian elites to consider if they wish to keep or kill USSR.
    It was responsibility of Ukrainian elites to consider if they wish to find new unions superceeding and substituting for USSR, or if they wish to remain lone riders aiming at global market.
    It was responsibility of Ukrainian people to bring wise elites to power, that will make good choice about economic policy BOTH domestic and foreign, including ensuring Ukraine has partners giving those very possibilities.

    If the Ukranian elites doomed Ukrainian economy by this or that mean, by over-taxating, by theft, by abandoning foreign cooperation and markets, anything – it all shows the quality of those elites and should not be dismissed. Thus, comparison of initial state of Ukrainian economy they inherited from UkrSSR with the current state they steered that economy into – is valid.

    > There is some infrastructure there. And there is evidence for it.

    Yes, there is infrastructure, inherited from that very UkrSSR, and not worn out completely yet.
    But infrastructure is just that, possibility.
    Not the science itself, not the results.
    The results, which utility was acknowledged by the World by using it, would definitely had been the “evidence”, but what are they?

    > Irrelevant is vague? In the context it is obvious,

    in THE context? But we did not agree pon context. And in you phrase the irrelevancy comes without specifying a context. So, yes, it was vague.

    > as you have so clearly dismissed it. You dismissed, or denigrated the grain production.

    …in the specific context of Ukraine as industrial state with economy size between France and FRG, enjoying producing and exporting high added value hard to replace limited competition goods.

    And through that being able to influence world politics and to prevent other nations trying to bulyl and abuse them.

    And then… you dismiss this my context altogether.

    What relevancy we can talk of, if the whole contexts of one another we do not appreciate?

    > Where did I say it? I did not.

    You efficiently said this when bringing the GDP figures as important, relevant for your context fact.
    Because GDP figures account for ALL money moveing, including “thieves and oligarchs” plundering state budget using quasi-legal schemes. For the easiest example, were money moved in and out of Kolomoisky’s Privat bank, largest in Ukraine, included into GDP figures?

    > It is because of the finality of death.

    As the state capable of producing world largest cargo turbojet aircraft – it is dead, etc.

    Will some other day Ukraine decide – and manage to!!! – rebuilt those capabilities, i would call it born again. But you said it yourself: “No country of such a size as Ukraine can create competition for Airbus” (despite there should be no unbridgeable difference between “size of France” and “size of Ukraine”) – and that IS the finality.

  244. Arioch says:
    @Anon

    > the false meme ‘can’t prove a non-existence’

    Great, then since it is “meme” and even a “false meme” (whatever it should mean) go prove non-existense of wise Ghost Of Ukrainian Nation that is moving Putin’s hand driving Russia to demise.

    I once used to read an ukrainian polit-tech guy who was spinning this, back in 2014 and maybe 2015.

    Was he right? Can you *prove* there is no that enity?

    Or maybe you can just show products of Ukrainian industry and applied science that the world around us use at large?

  245. Corvinus says:
    @R.G. Camara

    LOL. It really bothers you that all you have in your arsenal is ad hominem. Just try for once addressing the matter at hand with substance. Do you need a primer on discourse?

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  246. @Corvinus

    lol. Poor Corvinus, all he ever learned was ad hominem and how to change the subject from his own failures as a man. But neither are working anymore, are they, little Brock bot? Do you need to read Mr. Soros’s primer on how to be a good paid commie troll?

    • Disagree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Corvinus
  247. Corvinus says:
    @R.G. Camara

    There’s no ad hominem on my part, and no changing the subject. You interject with the same trope and have yet to actually counter my arguments. Again, do you need a primer on discourse?

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  248. Best solution of Ukraine is dissolution. Return parts of Ukraine to the states from where territories were stolen. (Everybody knows from which ones.)

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mr. Hack
  249. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    That might be the end result, but it won’t be that simple. The decay of Ukraine will be protracted and painful, like the decay of Somalia or Libya. Uncle Shmuel cannot build, but he destroys well.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    , @Arioch
  250. Mr. Hack says:
    @Ilyana_Rozumova

    The only problem with your cure is that the vast majority og Ukrainians like their current borders, they don’t want to go back to 19th century Imperial failures. It’s a good thing that paid trolls like yourself don’t run the show in Ukraine.

  251. Mr. Hack says:
    @AnonFromTN

    You seem highly qualified to help in situations where protracted painful decay takes place, as evidenced within your photo in comment #143.

  252. @Corvinus

    ROFL. Now our little Brock-bot outright lies, claims no ad hominem, and claims he doesn’t change every subject and deny reality at every turn, always interjecting with the same tropes and offering no actual arguments. This is the typical, illogical lefty primer on discourse, and its deliciously hilarious to watch when you know what it is. Especially when its done so poorly by our sad little Corvinus here.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  253. @R.G. Camara

    Truth be told, both of you engage in ad hominems and empty pontification with no substantive arguments. While that “Corvinus” person has an excuse of being either a State Department troll or a retarded Hitler fan-boy/girl, you don’t have that excuse.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
  254. Arioch says:
    @AnonFromTN

    And that is good.

    It takes time and effort to cure mental disease, which was generation after generation instilled in those lands.

    In 1914 AustroHungary started genociding Russians in what today is known as Western Ukraine.
    In 1939 Stalin returned those lands and stopped the genocide.
    Did those people rebound? No. All post-USSR history shows they were not… cured? fixed? assimilated? whatever word of your liking.

    For Polish or Russian nations it would not be healthy to be greedy and swallow all the once-Polish and once-Russian lands in one get go. It should be slow, and should never absorbing next onion’s skin of Ukraine be started before prior skin was assimilated successfully.

    So, let “decay of Ukraine will be protracted and painful … won’t be that simple”.
    Sad as it is, it still is incomparably better than decay or maybe collapse of Russia should it allow Ukrainians to rule her, like USSR did.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  255. @AnonFromTN

    hile that “Corvinus” person has an excuse of being either a State Department troll or a retarded Hitler fan-boy/girl,

    Or, as you conveniently elide, a plant from the SPLC or Media Matters.

    you don’t have that excuse.

    Fix your bowtie and sputter on elsewhere on how we need to be “better” than the Left. I came to win, and mocking/exposing paid commie trolls like Corvinus is necessary and fun.

  256. @Arioch

    After the coup in 2014 Russians are progressively less interested in absorbing Ukraine. Putin apparently likes being popular, so he listens. He is clearly reluctant to absorb even Donbass, which by its sacrifices and fortitude in the face of aggression showed that it deserves to be saved from stark staring mad Ukraine. As far as I know, Poles would like to take Galicia and Volhynia (which they collectively call Little Poland), but without the fauna: they do not want to exterminate banderites, however much they hate the vermin.

    So, Ukraine will rot at its own pace. Current Ukrainian clown-president (whose claim to fame is playing piano with his dick on TV) appears to be more interested in a quick buck for himself and his puppet masters than in Ukraine: he is trying to ram through their parliament the law that would allow foreigners to buy the last asset Ukraine still has, agricultural land.

    Ukrainian residents still fall into two categories: those who expect the West to solve their problems and those who expect Russia to do the same. The reality is, neither will bother. If Ukrainian residents don’t realize that they must solve their problems themselves, Ukraine is doomed. Today many Russians just say: good riddance.

    • Replies: @Arioch
    , @Seraphim
  257. Arioch says:
    @AnonFromTN

    > reluctant to absorb even Donbass, which
    > deserves to be saved from stark staring mad Ukraine

    Emancipating and absorbing is not necessary condition for saving. Syria is worth saving too, but no one suggest it should become part of Russian Federation.

    Even some faithful commies who spend those years channelling aid there, after living in Donbass for a week or two (comparing to prior experience of arriving, unloading and go back), were saying in fear “how much ukrainiazed them are, even them!!! how lucky we are Putin was deaf to our pleads and refused to incorporate Donbass!”.

    > without the fauna

    Heard this formula too, a catchty one, so i wonder if it was some real street talk or one of those infamous insights made up by the certain one blogger.

    > Current Ukrainian president … appears to be more interested in a quick buck for himself and his puppet masters than in Ukraine

    Ahem, current? Cough, cough, you mean he is somehow special on that matter???

    > The reality is, neither will bother.

    Amen.
    Freedom (independance, sovereignty) = responsibility.
    2013 – 1993 = 20. Ukraine was perfectly adult when making her choice, so should stop playing li’l kid’s card when dealing with other nations.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  258. @Arioch

    Even some faithful commies who spend those years channelling aid there, after living in Donbass for a week or two (comparing to prior experience of arriving, unloading and go back), were saying in fear “how much ukrainiazed them are, even them!!! how lucky we are Putin was deaf to our pleads and refused to incorporate Donbass!”.

    I agree, Putin’s refusal to incorporate Donbass was a prudent move. They should remain separate republics, although they can’t survive w/o Russian help. Ukrainian legacy is detrimental even in Crimea, where it is not as widespread and obnoxious. A lot of people in Crimea are unhappy that now they can’t solve all their problems by bribery, as they used to in Ukraine. But even those people don’t want Ukraine to return, as Ukrainian MP Volga recently found during his visit to Crimea. However, Putin’s decision to simplify the procedure of getting Russian citizenship for Ukrainian citizens seems to open Russia to dangers of getting too many “Ukraininized” people. I don’t know what his strategy is, but that seems like a dangerous move. Yet I don’t see many Russians protesting.

    without the fauna
    Heard this formula too, a catchy one, so i wonder if it was some real street talk or one of those infamous insights made up by the certain one blogger.

    I don’t know, never read bloggers. I know a few Poles, but they are all scientists, and none of them lives in Poland. Based on hearsay, I believe that Poles are OK with Ukrainian serfs coming to Poland to do the work that Poles are reluctant to do, but only as long as those serfs are gastarbeiters who can be deported at any moment for any transgression. Then again, Poland is distributing Karta Polaka (Polish card) to a lot of Ukrainians who can prove (usually by falsified documents) that they have Polish ancestry. I don’t know what their long-term strategy is with that (always assuming they have one).

    you mean he is somehow special on that matter???

    Of course not, in this Ze is just like all the previous ones. Since 1991 every Ukrainian president was busily stuffing his pockets, while letting what could have been a country go down the drain. On the one hand, you feel sorry for normal Ukrainians. On the other hand, every country has the government it deserves. After all, Russians came back to their senses only after a very hard kick in the butt in the 1990s.

  259. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    @playing piano with his dick on TV

    Are you sure of that? He was not original if so. Years ago Australian TV was running an ad for Viagra, showing two guys (gays of course) Stiff and Stiff, playing the piano with their dicks and glancing admiringly at each other dicks (not shown). It must be long ago, when a modicum of decency was still enforced on TV (it was retired after a short while).

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  260. @Seraphim

    I did not know that. He stole the whole thing, then: there was the other guy with him. You can watch it here:

    I suspected him of utter stupidity and many other sins, but did not suspect him of plagiarism.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  261. Seraphim says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Ha, ha, it looks exactly the same! Would you have a date for it? I can’t remember the date of the Oz ad, maybe some ten years ago. But from a little research I found a show in Las Vegas from 2008 of the ‘Freakin’ Brothers’
    @https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4idlkMCiFoQ.
    And a Greek one from [email protected]://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRV9iHD3-2I

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  262. @Seraphim

    Sorry, don’t know the date. This must have been on Ukie TV in the last few years. I thought that’s their invention, but apparently even this was copycatted from others. Poor Ukraine: not only their “president” played piano with his dick, but even this indignity he plagiarized.

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