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The Donbass Is Breaking Away from an Agonized Ukraine
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Tectonic shifts are continuing to occur in the political landscape of the Ukraine. Last week, following the imposition of a total blockade against Novorussia by the Ukronazis, Russia declared that she will from now on recognize the official documents emitted by the DNR and LNR authorities. This week, the Novorussian authorities have nationalized all the key factories of the Donbass. Furthermore, the Novorussians have now declared that since the Ukrainian authorities are not willing to purchase their coal and anthracite they will from now on export them to Russia. And just to make sure that they cover all their bases, the Novorussians have also declared that from now on only the Russian Ruble will be circulating in the Donetsk and Lugansk people’s republics.

Not to be undone, the Ukronazis have also taken a highly significant step: the Ukrainian Prime Minister has declared that he thinks that the irregular forces currently enforcing the blockade should be considered official border guards (as for these soon to be “border guards”, they have explained that for their main border post shall be called “nightingale” in honor of the Nachtigall battalion of the Nazi Abwehr).

Let’s sum all this up:

  1. The Urkonazis completely close down the unofficial border with Novorussia
  2. Russia recognizes Novorussian documents
  3. The DNR and LNR nationalize all the Ukrainian industry in the Donbass
  4. The Ukronazis declare that the line of contact is now to be considered a border
  5. The Novorussians declare that the Russian Ruble is the only legal currency in Novorussia
  6. The Novorussians will now export their entire production of coal/anthracite to Russia
  7. All the factories in Novorussia will no longer pay taxes to Kiev

I don’t know about you – but to me this sure looks like the DNR and LNR are cutting off their last ties to the Ukraine and the the junta in Kiev appears to go along with this plan.

In reality, this is all much more complicated. There is a covert war going on between the Ukrainian oligarchs Rinat Akhmetov, Igor Kolomoiskii and President Poroshensko and there is also a not so covert war taking place between the Ukronazi opposition and Poroshenko. There are also many unanswered questions left, including how and if the Novorussians will sell their production of coal and anthracite either to Russia (which Russia really doesn’t need) or through Russia (possibly concealing its real origin). This situation also begs the question of what the Russian banks will be able and willing to do to help the Novorussians. The sums of money involved are huge and there are many, often mutually exclusive, interests competing against each other. But I won’t dwell on that level right now – what is most important to me is the big picture and that big picture says “good-bye Ukraine”.

One can judge the seriousness of these developments by the truly Herculean efforts made by the western corporate media not to notice them. Even the British Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, Boris Johnson, who was in Kiev yesterday, was focusing exclusively on the upcoming Eurovision competition, and not on the dramatic developments taking place in the southeast.

In the Ukrainian context, the expression “never say never” is probably even more important than usual, but I will say that if what I think is happening is really happening, that is, if the Donbass is now de-facto cutting its last ties with the Ukraine and integrating with Russia politically and economically, and if the junta in Kiev appears to have been unable to prevent the Nazi volunteers from triggering this crisis with their blockade, then this potentially means to very important things:

  1. The Ukronazis have given up on the concept of reconquering Novorussia.
  2. The breakup of the rump-Ukraine has begun.

The blockade of the Donbass was decided by a rather small group of nationalist leaders who never asked for nor received any authorization for their actions from the junta in Kiev. Furthermore, the junta in Kiev never officially endorsed or even supported that move. But most amazingly, the junta never sent any kind of official police/military/security force to regain control of the situation. There was a group of men who, armed with sticks and baseball bats, tried to remove the Ukronazi crazies from the tracks, but they were quickly beaten back. Keep in mind that there are tens of thousands of soldiers and policemen deployed in the immediate vicinity of these volunteer units, but nobody, absolutely nobody has made a move to restore law and order.

Of course, the very notion of “law and order” is largely meaningless in a country occupied by a regime which itself is totally illegal. Furthermore, “law and order” are also meaningless in a country where might – usually in the form of a gang of thugs with Kalashnikovs – makes right. Forget “central Europe” – think “Somalia” and you will be much closer to the truth.

The Ukraine is a failed state, politically and economically. And, as a failed state, the Ukraine has plenty of armed gangs and even official armed forces, but nothing like the kind of modern and civilized military you need to take on the Novorussians who, far from being a failed state, are a young state which has just completed the modernization of its armed forces. The difference between the Ukrainian and the Novorussian armed forces is not just the result of Russian help, although they clearly played a major role, but the fact of the Novorussians having a capable fighting force has been a matter for survival from day 1, whereas for the junta this has never been a priority simply because there never was a military threat to the junta’s power. Bean-counters will tell me that the Ukrainian forces are about 2x to 3x larger, which is quite true. It is also irrelevant. What matters is whether they can mount modern, combined arms operations and that is something that the Ukrainian military does not seem to be capable of.

ORDER IT NOW

What we are seeing today is not just a Ukrainian military which seems to have given up on the notion of reconquering Novorussia, it is also one which appears to be giving up on the notion of holding the country together. Right now, this is only affecting the Donbass, but pretty soon other regions are likely to follow suit, especially the south (Odessa, Nikolaev, Mariupol) which, by itself, could be wealthy and prosperous and which has no need whatsoever for Neo-Nazi rulers. There are even some separatist movements in the western Ukraine who want to get rid of all the pseudo-Ukrainian “ballast” and build a “pure” Ukrainian state in the only place where such a state has real historical roots: on the border with Poland.

This all begs the question of the future of Poroshenko and here your guess is as good as mine. The only thing that has kept him in power so long is the support from the US and EU, but with the crises (plural) surrounding the Trump administration and the political uncertainty in Europe, there is only so long that Poroshenko can use his western mentors as the base for his power. Sooner or later, somebody somewhere in the Ukraine (my guess is in Odessa) will figure out that the local power configuration is far more important to him/her than what the western politicians have to say. Again, Somalia is the example to keep in mind: for a while the western powers also had a great deal of influence there, but only until that power was successfully challenged and then everybody declared victory and fled.

Needless to say, the Minsk Agreements are as far from being implemented as ever. For the AngloZionists that is enough of a justification to continue to blame Russia for it all. That will continue until the Ukraine finally implodes at which point the real negotiation will be “who will pays for the mess?” and Russia will probably declare that she is primarily responsible for the Donbass leaving the rest of the mess for the Europeans who, unlike the Americans, will have no choice but to pay. But that is still far in the future. Right now the question is how long can the agony of the Nazi Ukrainian regime last?

Alexander Zakharchenko predicted yesterday that the Ukrainian state would collapse within 60 days. Maybe. My personal gut feeling is that this might take quite a bit longer, especially considering the inertia of such a large country. We should also never discount a possible large-scale Ukronazi attack on Novorussia for no other reason than an expression of blind and dumb hatred. Should that happen the goal of the Novorussians will be to free the parts of the Lugansk and Donetsk regions which are still under Nazi occupation. This might be difficult – the Ukrainians have been fortifying their defenses for many months now – but I expect them to eventually succeed. At which point the West will blame Russia again (what else is new?).

Irrespective of how long this agony will last, there is no doubt in my mind that it has begun and that it is irreversible. It is actually quite remarkable that it took so long to bring about this last phase. For many months already we had many minor indicators and signs that thing were not going well, but with the de-facto separation of the Donbass and its gradual integration into the Russian economy we are witnessing a qualitatively new phase in the disintegration process of the Ukraine.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. Hey Saker,
    Why do you post here before your own blog site?

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  2. Mention of the Eurovision song competition.
    What a wonderful opportunity/ timing to stage a false flag/ terrorist event. ?
    I feel I have seen so many of these constructed pieces of theatre from the Demons, I can almost predict their next move. Almost. My mind is not consumed with evil, so I can only deduce from their past patterns of behaviour, while they, being evil personified, are endlessly creative in their diabolical plots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ram
    Boris Johnson is apparently going to Russia to discuss important issues. I presume the most important one will be Russia's entry to the Eurovisin contest.
  3. Why is the role of John McCain in the Ukraine mess not loudly “outed”.
    There is a “scandal” consuming US congress this week that Jeff Sessions once spoke to a Russian (the ambassador!)! While serving on the Congress security committee – but McCain is on that same committee and uses it as “cover” to travel to nasty conflict zones like Syria and Ukraine and agitate for more violence – and yet his role is never really revealed and reviled.
    Why?

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes, Randal
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    McCain is an opportunist with a monomaniac hostility to Russia but he doesn't hold serious office, albeit enough to give Browder a platform. You are right, he is always a force for confrontation not peace where Russia is involved. Not much of a Christian.
    , @The Alarmist

    "Why is the role of John McCain in the Ukraine mess not loudly “outed”."
     
    Why isn't he the next target of an allegation of violating the Logan Act?
  4. http://journal-neo.org/2017/03/04/joe-biden-fears-for-the-democratic-world-order/

    Seems Ukraine will continue to “benefit” from the care/counsel/ mentoring of Joe and Hunter Biden.
    Joe has established his very own “Clinton Foundation” .

    It’s mission: “The Biden Foundation will find new ways to build upon Joe Biden’s longstanding commitment to preserve the liberal international order.”
    The Bidens have even secured a famous talent agency to get their show on the road. (Huh???)
    The scary thing about Biden and his feet in foreign policy is the fact he handled the Ukraine portfolio for the same White House that made a war zone where none existed. Who can forget when Biden’s son joined the biggest natural gas company in Ukraine only weeks after the Euromaidan set the country alight? The fact Ukraine’s ruler slash oligarch Petro Poroshenko and Joe Biden are personal friends only adds further dismay alongside any idea the Biden Foundation will do more than make matters worse. Only if the price (or donation) were right, could any kind of sane détente come from such an NGO.

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  5. Eurovision is very much Bwitish Bowis Johnson’s level. He should stick to it all the time.

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  6. […] Written by The Saker; Originally appeared at The Unz Review […]

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  7. The Ukraine is a failed state, politically and economically.

    Well, since the 2014 putsch interrupted the constitutional order and continuity of peaceful transition of power, Ukraine is not a state anymore, failed or otherwise. There’s a territory in a state of civil war, where the so-called ‘government’ in Kiev is not deemed legitimate by a large portion (possibly a majority) of the population. What will come of it is anybody’s guess…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    "the so-called ‘government’ in Kiev is not deemed legitimate by a large portion (possibly a majority) of the population. " You were smoking?
  8. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Seems like it’s been a done deal for a while now with just the threads being pulled tighter slowly so as not to give the impression of abrupt movement. They’ve already had their own national anthem of the Donetsk People’s Republic viewable on YouTube for almost two years. Not much to be gained by being shackled to the dysfunctional Ukrainian state currently being run like a gangster state. With them out the hardline western part will play an even more outsized role in the remainder Ukrainian state so we’ll see what sort of great nation building work they’re capable of. We’ll also see how much their foreign patrons are now willing to support and help them out. The US funded coup is what set this chain of events off in the first place. This is just one in a series of countries that the US has deliberately destabilized and destroyed from Yugoslavia to Iraq and now the still unwinding Ukrainian story. Where to next for the US or has this country destroying momentum come to a halt for now?

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    USA is in the state of cold civil war since Donald Trump won the election, soon USA itself will be the state this destroying momentum come to dwell and wreck havoc like the dying days of the Roman Empire; people predicted it would be broken into seven pieces.
  9. Saker, are there any reliable charitable organizations you could recommend which provide aid for injured or displaced people in Novorussia? I try to use at least some of my charitable contributions to help people damaged by the foreign policy of the US regime; in other words, to counteract the evil use of my tax money. Thank you.

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html
    , @MarkinPNW
    You could look up "littlehirosima". Fort Russ occasionally has articles about "littlehirosima", a group that provides aid relief to children and families affected by the civil war in Novorussia, and they appear to accept donations through paypal.
  10. So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine’s integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won’t know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English – same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered – they didn’t have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election – Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

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    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Alternatively, Zakharchenko is about to be shot.
    , @5371
    You really are one of earth's stupidest sentient beings. This is the start of the collapse of the Ukrainian entity, not the end. Sympathisers with svidomry are virtually nonexistent in Donetsk and Lugansk even by the admission of the khokhol occupying authorities themselves. As for who started it, that would be all those who ignored the fact that most of the Ukraine never had any business in any state but Russia.
    , @Anatoly Karlin

    Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era.
     
    Before Russian "colonial" settlement, the area was a depopulated "wild fields" hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.

    Even I don't think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting and, as far as I can tell, knowledgeable but I question your first reference to Ireland if what you are saying is that the severance of Northern Ireland (cp. the Donbass) freed up Ireland to prosper. It didn't prosper from 1921 to the 1990s so doesn't seem to be a reason for optimism by the Ukrainians.
    , @Boris N

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English – same for Ukrainians).
     
    Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.

    Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland. Today people in Russia and Ukraine just rip a bitter yield sown by Lenin and his comrades in the 1920s. The Novorussian rebellion has been nothing but an attempt to deconstruct this evil Soviet Frankenstein called Ukraine.
    , @Sund
    The Russians are naked nationalists now. Only 20+ years ago they were nominal communists. Have they ever actually believed in anything, or is it all cynical real politik?
    , @Seamus Padraig

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine’s integration into NATO and the EU.
     
    That would have been a sensible solution to the problem from the start: have a vote and let each province of Ukraine decide whether they want to go with Russia or with NATO, and break the country up accordingly. In fact, it's such a reasonable win-win solution, it almost makes you wonder why NATO never made such an offer to Russia.

    But of course, there is a reason: NATO coveted Crimea, which would definitely have voted to become part of Russia, as, indeed, it did. Without Sebastopol, however, Ukraine is of little use to NATO. The only purpose it can conceivably serve now is to destabilize Russia--but so far this plan has failed.
  11. @Mao Cheng Ji

    The Ukraine is a failed state, politically and economically.
     
    Well, since the 2014 putsch interrupted the constitutional order and continuity of peaceful transition of power, Ukraine is not a state anymore, failed or otherwise. There's a territory in a state of civil war, where the so-called 'government' in Kiev is not deemed legitimate by a large portion (possibly a majority) of the population. What will come of it is anybody's guess...

    “the so-called ‘government’ in Kiev is not deemed legitimate by a large portion (possibly a majority) of the population. ” You were smoking?

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    You were smoking?
     
    Hi Phillip. I used to smoke, but I quit a few years ago. What of it?
  12. @Don Bass
    Why is the role of John McCain in the Ukraine mess not loudly "outed".
    There is a "scandal" consuming US congress this week that Jeff Sessions once spoke to a Russian (the ambassador!)! While serving on the Congress security committee - but McCain is on that same committee and uses it as "cover" to travel to nasty conflict zones like Syria and Ukraine and agitate for more violence - and yet his role is never really revealed and reviled.
    Why?

    McCain is an opportunist with a monomaniac hostility to Russia but he doesn’t hold serious office, albeit enough to give Browder a platform. You are right, he is always a force for confrontation not peace where Russia is involved. Not much of a Christian.

    Read More
  13. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    Alternatively, Zakharchenko is about to be shot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ned Ludlam
    You have to yell so much because your thesis is idiotic. You and John McCain deserve to be dumped somewhere remote in Yukrozaniland with 5 bucks and told to make do.

    You're a loser. The fake Ukraine is a loser. The EU talking heads are losers. The U.S. is a loser. Russia and Putin win again. Big time. And the folks in the Donbass get a chance to live life away from you rotters. The whole world is drawing lessons.

    Keep it up. Please deliver more such 'victories'.
  14. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    You really are one of earth’s stupidest sentient beings. This is the start of the collapse of the Ukrainian entity, not the end. Sympathisers with svidomry are virtually nonexistent in Donetsk and Lugansk even by the admission of the khokhol occupying authorities themselves. As for who started it, that would be all those who ignored the fact that most of the Ukraine never had any business in any state but Russia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    Read the history of the Civil War if your brain can stray that far off the Orthodox Fascist narrative.
  15. @Philip Owen
    Alternatively, Zakharchenko is about to be shot.

    You have to yell so much because your thesis is idiotic. You and John McCain deserve to be dumped somewhere remote in Yukrozaniland with 5 bucks and told to make do.

    You’re a loser. The fake Ukraine is a loser. The EU talking heads are losers. The U.S. is a loser. Russia and Putin win again. Big time. And the folks in the Donbass get a chance to live life away from you rotters. The whole world is drawing lessons.

    Keep it up. Please deliver more such ‘victories’.

    Read More
  16. @Philip Owen
    "the so-called ‘government’ in Kiev is not deemed legitimate by a large portion (possibly a majority) of the population. " You were smoking?

    You were smoking?

    Hi Phillip. I used to smoke, but I quit a few years ago. What of it?

    Read More
  17. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era.

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.

    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.
    , @Philip Owen
    The slave raiders were stopped went when the Crimea was captured, essentially in 1774 whebn Turkey gave the Khanate "independence".

    19th C American wind driven water pumps made agriculture in the Wild Lands possible by providing water for plough horses (generally there was not enough surface water to sustain the animals necessary for agriculture - so Wild Lands) and there was new settlement. German and Greek as well as Little Russian. There were Cossacks and Jews there too. Population wasn't as dense as Central and West Ukraine, agreed but there were people there and they weren't great Russians. The expansion it made Taganarog one of the most technically advanced cities in Europe (first gas lighting, sewers on all the main streets) as it was essentially a new place. When Hughes arrived, the landlords found ways of keeping the peasants on the land. The Cossacks were poor workers so he had to import workers from elsewhere, initially Great Russians. The early coal mining communities like Gorlivka are Great Russian and supported the Whites - they wanted neither version of The Ukraine on offer from the Reds. They are the last proletariat in Europe, strongly socially bonded and adopt unified political positions. Hence the strength of their resistance. The steel works and downstream factories are more mixed and supported the Reds, if reluctantly. Neither side has forgotten. The Civil War is at least as relevant to local hatreds as anything following the breakup of the SU or even WW2. Neither side has much to do with the surrounding farming community who are Little Russians and were, in decent numbers, in the 1897 census. I will defend my use of the term "colonial".
  18. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    While I am, unfortunately, completely ignorant about the modern details of the subject, it seems to me that this guy makes a lot of sense. Confirms lot of my suspicions.

    Thanks.
  19. @Anatoly Karlin

    Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era.
     
    Before Russian "colonial" settlement, the area was a depopulated "wild fields" hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.

    Even I don't think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire’s religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians (“We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different – we are all Russians, children of Rus”).

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    “The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean.”

    “Korolevets is a big town…the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark…”

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were “Orthodox from Poland” (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).

    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.

    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine’s lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas – despite all Donbas’ money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    I think that you are being too hard on Donetsk. Coal mining villages anywhere are usually not appreciated by metropolitan culture but Donetsk was planned as a worker's paradise from day one. Good hospitals, wide streets, decent housing, extensive parks and greenery; still a steel town in the end but like many, not bad at its height from what I read. But Kharkiv was much more of a service centre. Small business not proletarian industry.
    , @Felix Keverich

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.
     
    And you are projecting. "nationalist Mythology" is something that Ukrainians have to dabble in, for the lack of a genuine national history. You guys believe that Vladimir the Great was an oldest Ukrainian nationalist, and history books use terms like "Rus-Ukraine" to describe a 10th century state. LMAO.


    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine’s lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev
     
    I'm pretty sure you don't actually live there. People don't aspire to live in Lvov, in fact pretty much the entire population of Western Ukraine would love to get out.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to "anyone" was Turkic slavers.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you're overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C - 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C - 100K-200K
    , @Boris N

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.
     
    Even your state propagandists, who are making up your nationalist mythology and brainwash Ukrainian schoolchildren, admit that the southern third of modern Ukraine was an unpopulated "wild field", the central third was sparsely populated, and only the western third had enough population.
    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/g9/Maps/6.jpg
    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/uh8/Maps/8_03.jpg
    (Source: "Atlas z istoriyi Ukrayiny".)

    The country was called "Borderland" for a reason, because 50 miles to the south of Kiev there was no-man's land.

    Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632).
     
    I wouldn't call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) "bustling". Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits. But Moscow did not face any threats to their faith, so there was no need in Christian madrasas. When Peter I established the real academy and technical schools those Ukrainian madrasas which taught mainly religion became outdated and obsolete.
    , @Boris N


    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    “The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean.”

    “Korolevets is a big town…the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark…”
     
    These are fakes. Those words are not found either in the Russian translation or in the Danish original. Your citation in English is found only in a couple of forums and in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists (hint how to detect Ukranian propagandists: they write things like "Unlike in Muscovy"). Funny enough, it is also found here on unz.com, the very same citation was made by you a while ago. So you are nothing but a Ukranian propaganda bot. How many hryvnias do they pay today to propaganda bots? Or you are another "daughter of a Crimean officer" from Maryland, aren't you?

    For your information, Russia "took over" Chernigov in 1503.
  20. @Anatoly Karlin

    Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era.
     
    Before Russian "colonial" settlement, the area was a depopulated "wild fields" hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.

    Even I don't think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.

    The slave raiders were stopped went when the Crimea was captured, essentially in 1774 whebn Turkey gave the Khanate “independence”.

    19th C American wind driven water pumps made agriculture in the Wild Lands possible by providing water for plough horses (generally there was not enough surface water to sustain the animals necessary for agriculture – so Wild Lands) and there was new settlement. German and Greek as well as Little Russian. There were Cossacks and Jews there too. Population wasn’t as dense as Central and West Ukraine, agreed but there were people there and they weren’t great Russians. The expansion it made Taganarog one of the most technically advanced cities in Europe (first gas lighting, sewers on all the main streets) as it was essentially a new place. When Hughes arrived, the landlords found ways of keeping the peasants on the land. The Cossacks were poor workers so he had to import workers from elsewhere, initially Great Russians. The early coal mining communities like Gorlivka are Great Russian and supported the Whites – they wanted neither version of The Ukraine on offer from the Reds. They are the last proletariat in Europe, strongly socially bonded and adopt unified political positions. Hence the strength of their resistance. The steel works and downstream factories are more mixed and supported the Reds, if reluctantly. Neither side has forgotten. The Civil War is at least as relevant to local hatreds as anything following the breakup of the SU or even WW2. Neither side has much to do with the surrounding farming community who are Little Russians and were, in decent numbers, in the 1897 census. I will defend my use of the term “colonial”.

    Read More
  21. @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    I think that you are being too hard on Donetsk. Coal mining villages anywhere are usually not appreciated by metropolitan culture but Donetsk was planned as a worker’s paradise from day one. Good hospitals, wide streets, decent housing, extensive parks and greenery; still a steel town in the end but like many, not bad at its height from what I read. But Kharkiv was much more of a service centre. Small business not proletarian industry.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    I haven't been there, but the statistics speak for themselves and are really bad - crime capital of Ukraine, collapsing demographics(while also having highest % of unwed mothers in Ukraine), highest HIV rate among white people in the world. The Exile claimed that most of Moscow's prostitutes are supplied by Donbas. This was before the war. One of my best friends in Moscow regularly visited family s (before the latter moved to Moscow) and would come back with sad and terrible stories about the place.
  22. @5371
    You really are one of earth's stupidest sentient beings. This is the start of the collapse of the Ukrainian entity, not the end. Sympathisers with svidomry are virtually nonexistent in Donetsk and Lugansk even by the admission of the khokhol occupying authorities themselves. As for who started it, that would be all those who ignored the fact that most of the Ukraine never had any business in any state but Russia.

    Read the history of the Civil War if your brain can stray that far off the Orthodox Fascist narrative.

    Read More
  23. @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.

    And you are projecting. “nationalist Mythology” is something that Ukrainians have to dabble in, for the lack of a genuine national history. You guys believe that Vladimir the Great was an oldest Ukrainian nationalist, and history books use terms like “Rus-Ukraine” to describe a 10th century state. LMAO.

    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine’s lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev

    I’m pretty sure you don’t actually live there. People don’t aspire to live in Lvov, in fact pretty much the entire population of Western Ukraine would love to get out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Anglo-Saxon and their the Franks cousins love to write other people's history for the others stuffed with fake news, so they can white wash their barbarism, war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they have been committing around the world in the last few hundreds of years, and portray themselves as the the final form of civilization with hypocrisy.

    They have been quite successful in white washing and glossing over their ugly past, perhaps they are so deep in the fake news they don't even know they are bubbling fake news.
  24. The Saker’s favorite, infantile word, Ukronazis, is an indication of his pathetic indoctrination.

    There were the ‘Nazis’ with the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ and there were the ‘Nazis’ without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    [MORE]

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”
    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the ’6,000,000′ lie since at least 1869?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    http://forum.codoh.com and http://codoh.com are created by the unrepentant war criminal Japanese who wants to create a precedent to legitimize their denying their barbaric, beastly, inhuman and evil war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they committed before 1945.
  25. And you are projecting. “nationalist Mythology” is something that Ukrainians have to dabble in, for the lack of a genuine national history.

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one? How cute. Tell me again how Helga who slaughtered the Slavic Drevlians to avenge her husband Ingvar who had been extorting slaves and furs from them, was a Russian princess.

    You guys believe that Vladimir the Great was an oldest Ukrainian nationalist, and history books use terms like “Rus-Ukraine” to describe a 10th century state. LMAO.

    Pot calling kettle black. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican. LMAO.

    I’m pretty sure you don’t actually live there. People don’t aspire to live in Lvov, in fact pretty much the entire population of Western Ukraine would love to get out.

    Lviv has gained population from migration. I know people who have moved there from Kiev and southern places, and two who have moved back from the West after getting Western passports. It’s the nicest and best-run place in Ukraine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one?.. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican.
     
    Hey, just because Ukraine is a fake nation doesn't mean that Russia is not a real one. Of all the people who could potentially claim the legacy of the Kievan Rus, it is Russia, and not Sweden (certainly not the ridiculous Ukraine/Belarus), that has the strongest case.

    FWIW the monument to Vladimir the Great in Kiev was vandalized recently, because some Ukrainian nationalists perceive the Russian prince (correctly) as a foreign figure.
    http://korrespondent.net/city/kiev/3750007-v-kyeve-razrysovaly-pamiatnyk-vladymyru-velykomu-smy

    Lviv...is nicest and best-run place in Ukraine.
     
    But you don't actually live there. This is what makes Ukrainian nationalism so ridiculous as an idea: its stanchest, most committed followers tend to live in North America.
  26. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    Interesting and, as far as I can tell, knowledgeable but I question your first reference to Ireland if what you are saying is that the severance of Northern Ireland (cp. the Donbass) freed up Ireland to prosper. It didn’t prosper from 1921 to the 1990s so doesn’t seem to be a reason for optimism by the Ukrainians.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    I will agree with that. Until EU structural funds started to flow, the Republic of Ireland's main attraction was tax free holidays to (in practice) US corporations. Also, lots of labour at low wages in places like Galway. Helpful but without enough infrastructure not the Celtic Tiger.

    And yes, rump Ukraine is not going to boom either. It will be Russia's main competitor on the world's (heavily protected) agricultural markets. China, Egypt, South Asia (grudgingly) and post Brexit UK will be the big buyers. It will probably get a better deal from Post Brexit UK for agriculture than Russia if the UK slides all the way over to a WTO Brexit. Ukraine does not need to be a total disaster. Unfortunately, its government does not generate confidence.
    , @Jake
    My interest in this situation is primarily in regard to the US playing role of global bully right into World War 3. The most vociferous anti-Russians in the US are that crazy. I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU, who are like the American leaders minus common sense and with an extra dose of desire for cultural suicide.

    But the history is interesting. What I would like to know are answers to the following questions.

    1) How many years total - in all history - has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by 'Ukrainian nationalists,' and that includes the Crimea?

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?
  27. Suggestion to Saker: If you want to be perceived as having a modicum of objectivity instead of as a Kremlin propaganda mouthpiece, you could start by dropping such loaded blends as “Ukronazis” Otherwise you merely come across as a John McCain with an opposite agenda minus the senatorial perks.

    Read More
    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    I would like to second that and encourage Mr Karlin to do likewise. It is all a bit tedious. For better understanding of the Ukraine, I would recommend Alexander Mercouris at The Duran and elsewhere.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    Maybe a negation of John McCain is precisely what the world needs right now.
  28. @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to “anyone” was Turkic slavers.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you’re overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C – 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C – 100K-200K

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    • Replies: @AP

    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to “anyone” was Turkic slavers.
     
    Ah, okay, that makes sense. Of course Ukrainians participated in the Russian Empire at the time the wild fields were settled, so it wasn't as if this were some sort of unearned gift.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you’re overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C – 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C – 100K-200K
     
    Highly populated isn't necessarily the same thing as more civilized. For about 100 years pretty much every head of the Russian Orthodox Church was from Kiev (including this guy, the first head of the Holy Synod, a Galiian who studied in Kiev. Lomonosov came to Kiev to study, also, first significant "Russian" composer Berzovsky, etc. The Eurasianist historian Vernadsky wrote that acquiring Kiev was no less important than St. Petersburg with respect to the Russian Empire's westernization/modernization.
  29. @Anon
    https://youtu.be/0HGdo3aIw8Q

    While I am, unfortunately, completely ignorant about the modern details of the subject, it seems to me that this guy makes a lot of sense. Confirms lot of my suspicions.

    Thanks.

    Read More
  30. @AP

    And you are projecting. “nationalist Mythology” is something that Ukrainians have to dabble in, for the lack of a genuine national history.
     
    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one? How cute. Tell me again how Helga who slaughtered the Slavic Drevlians to avenge her husband Ingvar who had been extorting slaves and furs from them, was a Russian princess.

    You guys believe that Vladimir the Great was an oldest Ukrainian nationalist, and history books use terms like “Rus-Ukraine” to describe a 10th century state. LMAO.
     
    Pot calling kettle black. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican. LMAO.

    I’m pretty sure you don’t actually live there. People don’t aspire to live in Lvov, in fact pretty much the entire population of Western Ukraine would love to get out.

     

    Lviv has gained population from migration. I know people who have moved there from Kiev and southern places, and two who have moved back from the West after getting Western passports. It's the nicest and best-run place in Ukraine.

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one?.. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican.

    Hey, just because Ukraine is a fake nation doesn’t mean that Russia is not a real one. Of all the people who could potentially claim the legacy of the Kievan Rus, it is Russia, and not Sweden (certainly not the ridiculous Ukraine/Belarus), that has the strongest case.

    FWIW the monument to Vladimir the Great in Kiev was vandalized recently, because some Ukrainian nationalists perceive the Russian prince (correctly) as a foreign figure.

    http://korrespondent.net/city/kiev/3750007-v-kyeve-razrysovaly-pamiatnyk-vladymyru-velykomu-smy

    Lviv…is nicest and best-run place in Ukraine.

    But you don’t actually live there. This is what makes Ukrainian nationalism so ridiculous as an idea: its stanchest, most committed followers tend to live in North America.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one?.. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican.

    Hey, just because Ukraine is a fake nation doesn’t mean that Russia is not a real one.
     
    Mythology about Vladimir doesn't determine whether a nation is fake or not. If it did, both would be equally fake.

    Of all the people who could potentially claim the legacy of the Kievan Rus, it is Russia, and not Sweden
     
    Yeah, and Mayans from Mexico can claim the legacy of Cervantes. And Rudyard Kipling was a great Indian writer, Tolkien a Zulu, etc.

    (certainly not the ridiculous Ukraine/Belarus)
     
    Those not also, but it would be slightly less ridiculous. The capital was in what is now Ukraine, at least. Whereas Russia grew out of a peripheral region (sorry, Novgorod was a historical dead-end, destroyed by Moscow).

    FWIW the monument to Vladimir the Great in Kiev was vandalized recently, because some Ukrainian nationalists perceive the Russian prince (correctly)
     
    There you go again. Someone who believes in nationalist fairytales, as you do, shouldn't make fun of others' nationalist fairytales.
  31. @anonymous
    Seems like it's been a done deal for a while now with just the threads being pulled tighter slowly so as not to give the impression of abrupt movement. They've already had their own national anthem of the Donetsk People's Republic viewable on YouTube for almost two years. Not much to be gained by being shackled to the dysfunctional Ukrainian state currently being run like a gangster state. With them out the hardline western part will play an even more outsized role in the remainder Ukrainian state so we'll see what sort of great nation building work they're capable of. We'll also see how much their foreign patrons are now willing to support and help them out. The US funded coup is what set this chain of events off in the first place. This is just one in a series of countries that the US has deliberately destabilized and destroyed from Yugoslavia to Iraq and now the still unwinding Ukrainian story. Where to next for the US or has this country destroying momentum come to a halt for now?

    USA is in the state of cold civil war since Donald Trump won the election, soon USA itself will be the state this destroying momentum come to dwell and wreck havoc like the dying days of the Roman Empire; people predicted it would be broken into seven pieces.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    After handing your comment to one of my proof reader editors I was apprised of the idea that you think the USA will evolve through cold war into an economic collapse of some parts which other parts will not be compelled to give generous support to cf. 1860s and 1870s South rather than Marshall Plan. Then there will be a geopolitical disintegration based no doubt on the non citizen Latinos being disgruntled Goths. I think perhaps you need more reading of history and fewer wet dreams.
  32. I hate when people call DNR-LNR Novorussia and Novorussians. Real true Novorussia is a vast region stretching from the Dniester River right to the Don River and even far beyond (see the city of Novorossiysk).

    DNR-LNR are not Novorussia, but a very tiny bit of it. It’s like calling Manhattan the East Coast.

    Obviously, The Saker has little idea about the history of the region he is speaking about.

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    • Replies: @AP

    I hate when people call DNR-LNR Novorussia and Novorussians. Real true Novorussia is a vast region stretching from the Dniester River right to the Don River and even far beyond (see the city of Novorossiysk).
     
    He may be referring to the political project that has failed to take root anywhere in Ukraine other than in DNR-LNR territory.
  33. @Felix Keverich

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.
     
    And you are projecting. "nationalist Mythology" is something that Ukrainians have to dabble in, for the lack of a genuine national history. You guys believe that Vladimir the Great was an oldest Ukrainian nationalist, and history books use terms like "Rus-Ukraine" to describe a 10th century state. LMAO.


    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine’s lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev
     
    I'm pretty sure you don't actually live there. People don't aspire to live in Lvov, in fact pretty much the entire population of Western Ukraine would love to get out.

    Anglo-Saxon and their the Franks cousins love to write other people’s history for the others stuffed with fake news, so they can white wash their barbarism, war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they have been committing around the world in the last few hundreds of years, and portray themselves as the the final form of civilization with hypocrisy.

    They have been quite successful in white washing and glossing over their ugly past, perhaps they are so deep in the fake news they don’t even know they are bubbling fake news.

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  34. Agreed.

    It appears that Poroshenko and his entourage face formidable obstacles to reuniting the country and that they hang on only so long as one thing continues (funding from the EU and support from the U.S.) and one thing doesn’t start (the revolt of the Ukrainian militias).

    I recently read that after Mosul initially fell to ISIS there was panic among some ministers and ministries in Bagdad itself as the capital city was then seen to be vulnerable to an attack from ISIS. And, one could tell which ministers had decided to stay or run on the basis of whether or not sandbags were freshly laid around their ministries or the old ones just left in place. New bags – staying to fight; no new bags – leaving on the first hint of trouble.

    I wonder if the Ukrainian ministries and ministers will demonstrate the same sort of clarity of their intentions when the militias revolt?

    LF

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  35. Probably Globalists never visualized this one.
    New world order will have status as perpetual ever changing.
    LOL.
    Lvov is a Polish built city, and large area around, has population of Polish descent.
    Eventually this part will express wishes to join successful Polish State.

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  36. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English – same for Ukrainians).

    Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.

    Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland. Today people in Russia and Ukraine just rip a bitter yield sown by Lenin and his comrades in the 1920s. The Novorussian rebellion has been nothing but an attempt to deconstruct this evil Soviet Frankenstein called Ukraine.

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    • Replies: @5371
    Very true, but the March revolution already sowed this poison.
    , @AP

     Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.
     Lexical differences between European languages:

    https://alternativetransport.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian. This analogy of Sicilian to Italian (or Bavarian to High German) is another Russian nationalist myth.


     Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland.
     Soviet wonderland resulted in a place ("Novorossiya") that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking. Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.

    As for "phony" language etc. - no less than any other, and less so than Russian. The Russian language is more artificial than most, as it was constructed with a lot of deliberately inserted Church Slavonic and was less an organic and natural speech. Until Pushkin's genius it was quite awkward. In the words of some commenter on another website, "He made the stodgy and awkward lab creation bearing heavy hallmarks of the Church Slavonic simpler, lighter, and closer to a natural language - more Ukrainian-like, if you will. He introduced that simpler, more natural style both in prose and poetry, influenced many others, who pretty soon started writing similarly (Lermontov is a prime example), and thus reformed language then started proliferating downward and horizontally through the system of education."

    "This is as opposed to Ukrainian, which was completely natural and ready-to-use to begin with. Thus Ukrainian authors - Kotliarevsky and Shevchenko first - didn't have to revolutionize anything and simply used their mother tongue. Modern Ukrainian differs very little from Ukrainian used to write "Eneida" in 1798 or "Natalka-Poltavka" a decade later. But if you read anything published in Russian around that period and compare it with post-Pushkin literature, they sound as if written in two different languages."

  37. Why is this Russian shill still allowed to post on the site? Pls, ban this proopoganda spouting.

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  38. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    The Russians are naked nationalists now. Only 20+ years ago they were nominal communists. Have they ever actually believed in anything, or is it all cynical real politik?

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    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Naked nationalism is the future. Submit!

    https://twitter.com/BronzeAgePirate/status/838320944389160961
  39. @Boris N

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English – same for Ukrainians).
     
    Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.

    Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland. Today people in Russia and Ukraine just rip a bitter yield sown by Lenin and his comrades in the 1920s. The Novorussian rebellion has been nothing but an attempt to deconstruct this evil Soviet Frankenstein called Ukraine.

    Very true, but the March revolution already sowed this poison.

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  40. @Anatoly Karlin
    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to "anyone" was Turkic slavers.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you're overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C - 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C - 100K-200K

    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to “anyone” was Turkic slavers.

    Ah, okay, that makes sense. Of course Ukrainians participated in the Russian Empire at the time the wild fields were settled, so it wasn’t as if this were some sort of unearned gift.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you’re overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C – 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C – 100K-200K

    Highly populated isn’t necessarily the same thing as more civilized. For about 100 years pretty much every head of the Russian Orthodox Church was from Kiev (including this guy, the first head of the Holy Synod, a Galiian who studied in Kiev. Lomonosov came to Kiev to study, also, first significant “Russian” composer Berzovsky, etc. The Eurasianist historian Vernadsky wrote that acquiring Kiev was no less important than St. Petersburg with respect to the Russian Empire’s westernization/modernization.

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    • Replies: @GB
    Yes, "this guy" came from Galicia. As did so many others, who came into the only Orthodox state of substance then existing, because at that time the critical determinant of identity was faith. The thing about all these "guys from Galicia", after the matter of faith, is this -- they were never "Ukrainians". The were "Ruski", plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them. In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves "Ruski", and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them. (That administration played interesting games, balancing off the "Ukrainians" and the Poles"). And even when Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii's, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the "Russki" deacons out of the church by force, so ensconced was the "Russki" identity, not only amongst the majority of the peasantry, but even within the Uniate Church itself. To say that "guys from Galicia" came into the Russian empire says nothing about their "Ukrainianess". There was no Ukrainian identity amongst the people -- that was only in the making, as some Ukrainian "intellectuals" (term used most advisedly), encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and, soon enough Franz Josef himself, began to promote the notion of "Ukrainianess" with a view to separating the inhabitants of this region from Russian proclivities. SO YES -- there was a large infeeding of educated from western Ukraine, and central Ukraine, into the Russian Empire -- but these people came NOT AS Ukrainians, BUT AS Ruski.
  41. @Boris N

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English – same for Ukrainians).
     
    Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.

    Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland. Today people in Russia and Ukraine just rip a bitter yield sown by Lenin and his comrades in the 1920s. The Novorussian rebellion has been nothing but an attempt to deconstruct this evil Soviet Frankenstein called Ukraine.

    Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.

    Lexical differences between European languages:

    https://alternativetransport.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian. This analogy of Sicilian to Italian (or Bavarian to High German) is another Russian nationalist myth.

    Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking. Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.

    As for “phony” language etc. – no less than any other, and less so than Russian. The Russian language is more artificial than most, as it was constructed with a lot of deliberately inserted Church Slavonic and was less an organic and natural speech. Until Pushkin’s genius it was quite awkward. In the words of some commenter on another website, “He made the stodgy and awkward lab creation bearing heavy hallmarks of the Church Slavonic simpler, lighter, and closer to a natural language – more Ukrainian-like, if you will. He introduced that simpler, more natural style both in prose and poetry, influenced many others, who pretty soon started writing similarly (Lermontov is a prime example), and thus reformed language then started proliferating downward and horizontally through the system of education.”

    “This is as opposed to Ukrainian, which was completely natural and ready-to-use to begin with. Thus Ukrainian authors – Kotliarevsky and Shevchenko first – didn’t have to revolutionize anything and simply used their mother tongue. Modern Ukrainian differs very little from Ukrainian used to write “Eneida” in 1798 or “Natalka-Poltavka” a decade later. But if you read anything published in Russian around that period and compare it with post-Pushkin literature, they sound as if written in two different languages.”

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    • Replies: @Boris N

    Lexical differences between European languages:
     
    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking.
     
    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.
     
    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Your other "arguments" are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.
    , @Mao Cheng Ji

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian.
     
    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories) is close to Polish, but most of the rest of the dialects are close to Russian. Many more still speak Russian-Ukrainian surzhyk than the Galician version, the Polish-Yiddish-Ukrainian surzhyk.
  42. @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.

    Even your state propagandists, who are making up your nationalist mythology and brainwash Ukrainian schoolchildren, admit that the southern third of modern Ukraine was an unpopulated “wild field”, the central third was sparsely populated, and only the western third had enough population.

    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/g9/Maps/6.jpg

    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/uh8/Maps/8_03.jpg

    (Source: “Atlas z istoriyi Ukrayiny”.)

    The country was called “Borderland” for a reason, because 50 miles to the south of Kiev there was no-man’s land.

    Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632).

    I wouldn’t call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) “bustling”. Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits. But Moscow did not face any threats to their faith, so there was no need in Christian madrasas. When Peter I established the real academy and technical schools those Ukrainian madrasas which taught mainly religion became outdated and obsolete.

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    • Replies: @AP

    [About Kiev] I wouldn’t call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) “bustling”. Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits.
     
    Population varied from 15,000 to 10,000. In context, Warsaw, Poland's capital, had around 30,000 people and Krakow around 25,000 in the 17th century. These were the main cities of what was at the time a world power. Other cities - Edinburgh had 8,000 people in 1592, Berlin 17,500 in 1685, etc.

    What you call a "Madrasa" was recognized as an Academy in 1658 (having previously been a Collegium), enjoying similar status to Krakow Academy (now Jagiellonian University).

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church. It produced the Russian Empire's first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.

  43. @Felix Keverich

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one?.. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican.
     
    Hey, just because Ukraine is a fake nation doesn't mean that Russia is not a real one. Of all the people who could potentially claim the legacy of the Kievan Rus, it is Russia, and not Sweden (certainly not the ridiculous Ukraine/Belarus), that has the strongest case.

    FWIW the monument to Vladimir the Great in Kiev was vandalized recently, because some Ukrainian nationalists perceive the Russian prince (correctly) as a foreign figure.
    http://korrespondent.net/city/kiev/3750007-v-kyeve-razrysovaly-pamiatnyk-vladymyru-velykomu-smy

    Lviv...is nicest and best-run place in Ukraine.
     
    But you don't actually live there. This is what makes Ukrainian nationalism so ridiculous as an idea: its stanchest, most committed followers tend to live in North America.

    Your myth is nicer than the Ukrainian one?.. Russians and Ukrainians arguing over whether a Viking chieftain was a Russian or Ukrainian is like a Mexican Mestizo arguing with a Caribbean Mulatto over whether or not Cortes was a Mexican or a Puerto Rican.

    Hey, just because Ukraine is a fake nation doesn’t mean that Russia is not a real one.

    Mythology about Vladimir doesn’t determine whether a nation is fake or not. If it did, both would be equally fake.

    Of all the people who could potentially claim the legacy of the Kievan Rus, it is Russia, and not Sweden

    Yeah, and Mayans from Mexico can claim the legacy of Cervantes. And Rudyard Kipling was a great Indian writer, Tolkien a Zulu, etc.

    (certainly not the ridiculous Ukraine/Belarus)

    Those not also, but it would be slightly less ridiculous. The capital was in what is now Ukraine, at least. Whereas Russia grew out of a peripheral region (sorry, Novgorod was a historical dead-end, destroyed by Moscow).

    FWIW the monument to Vladimir the Great in Kiev was vandalized recently, because some Ukrainian nationalists perceive the Russian prince (correctly)

    There you go again. Someone who believes in nationalist fairytales, as you do, shouldn’t make fun of others’ nationalist fairytales.

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  44. @Philip Owen
    I think that you are being too hard on Donetsk. Coal mining villages anywhere are usually not appreciated by metropolitan culture but Donetsk was planned as a worker's paradise from day one. Good hospitals, wide streets, decent housing, extensive parks and greenery; still a steel town in the end but like many, not bad at its height from what I read. But Kharkiv was much more of a service centre. Small business not proletarian industry.

    I haven’t been there, but the statistics speak for themselves and are really bad – crime capital of Ukraine, collapsing demographics(while also having highest % of unwed mothers in Ukraine), highest HIV rate among white people in the world. The Exile claimed that most of Moscow’s prostitutes are supplied by Donbas. This was before the war. One of my best friends in Moscow regularly visited family s (before the latter moved to Moscow) and would come back with sad and terrible stories about the place.

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  45. @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting and, as far as I can tell, knowledgeable but I question your first reference to Ireland if what you are saying is that the severance of Northern Ireland (cp. the Donbass) freed up Ireland to prosper. It didn't prosper from 1921 to the 1990s so doesn't seem to be a reason for optimism by the Ukrainians.

    I will agree with that. Until EU structural funds started to flow, the Republic of Ireland’s main attraction was tax free holidays to (in practice) US corporations. Also, lots of labour at low wages in places like Galway. Helpful but without enough infrastructure not the Celtic Tiger.

    And yes, rump Ukraine is not going to boom either. It will be Russia’s main competitor on the world’s (heavily protected) agricultural markets. China, Egypt, South Asia (grudgingly) and post Brexit UK will be the big buyers. It will probably get a better deal from Post Brexit UK for agriculture than Russia if the UK slides all the way over to a WTO Brexit. Ukraine does not need to be a total disaster. Unfortunately, its government does not generate confidence.

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  46. @AP

    Before Russian “colonial” settlement, the area was a depopulated “wild fields” hosting a smattering of impoverished Slavic peasants terrorized by roving Turkic warbands.
     
    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology. Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632). Much of the early Russian Empire's religious elite came from what is now Ukraine, which would not have been the case had it been what you describe. Ironically, a lot of the Ukraine = Russia came from Ukrainians serving the Russian state, justifying their nice positions at the expense of resentful native Russians ("We are not foreigners even though we speak Polish and our colloquial language is different - we are all Russians, children of Rus").

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    "The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean."

    "Korolevets is a big town...the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark..."

    Her reported the teachers at the Moscow gymnazium were "Orthodox from Poland" (I.e., Ukrainians or Belarussians).


    Even I don’t think the Maidan will end up driving Ukraine quite that far into the ground, though with the svidomites, no scenario can be fully excluded.
     
    That must be why Lviv, the center of Ukrainian nationalism, has Ukraine's lowest crime rates, one of its most educated populations, and highest livability outside Kiev. As for its opposite, Donbas - despite all Donbas' money from coal and steel, the place was always crude, not very pleasant to live in, and full of social problems and collapsing demographics.

    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    “The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean.”

    “Korolevets is a big town…the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark…”

    These are fakes. Those words are not found either in the Russian translation or in the Danish original. Your citation in English is found only in a couple of forums and in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists (hint how to detect Ukranian propagandists: they write things like “Unlike in Muscovy”). Funny enough, it is also found here on unz.com, the very same citation was made by you a while ago. So you are nothing but a Ukranian propaganda bot. How many hryvnias do they pay today to propaganda bots? Or you are another “daughter of a Crimean officer” from Maryland, aren’t you?

    For your information, Russia “took over” Chernigov in 1503.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists
     
    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.

    For your information, Russia “took over” Chernigov in 1503.
     
    Briefly. But later:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Voivodeship

    Or you are another “daughter of a Crimean officer” from Maryland, aren’t you?
     
    I am curious about what this refers to.
  47. @AP

     Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.
     Lexical differences between European languages:

    https://alternativetransport.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian. This analogy of Sicilian to Italian (or Bavarian to High German) is another Russian nationalist myth.


     Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland.
     Soviet wonderland resulted in a place ("Novorossiya") that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking. Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.

    As for "phony" language etc. - no less than any other, and less so than Russian. The Russian language is more artificial than most, as it was constructed with a lot of deliberately inserted Church Slavonic and was less an organic and natural speech. Until Pushkin's genius it was quite awkward. In the words of some commenter on another website, "He made the stodgy and awkward lab creation bearing heavy hallmarks of the Church Slavonic simpler, lighter, and closer to a natural language - more Ukrainian-like, if you will. He introduced that simpler, more natural style both in prose and poetry, influenced many others, who pretty soon started writing similarly (Lermontov is a prime example), and thus reformed language then started proliferating downward and horizontally through the system of education."

    "This is as opposed to Ukrainian, which was completely natural and ready-to-use to begin with. Thus Ukrainian authors - Kotliarevsky and Shevchenko first - didn't have to revolutionize anything and simply used their mother tongue. Modern Ukrainian differs very little from Ukrainian used to write "Eneida" in 1798 or "Natalka-Poltavka" a decade later. But if you read anything published in Russian around that period and compare it with post-Pushkin literature, they sound as if written in two different languages."

    Lexical differences between European languages:

    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking.

    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.

    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Darin

    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_of_31_May_%E2%80%93_2_June_1793

    Had Girondins (federalists) prevailed over Montagnards (centralists), where is now France could be today about dozen of nations, all hating each other and the "Parisians". But history went the other way, and France was made French with fire, sword and wooden shoe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.
     
    All nations and languages bigger than small village are "fake" in your term, or "socially constructed" in academic speak.
    , @AP

    Lexical differences between European languages:

    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.
     
    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    http://georgetownuniversitypress.tumblr.com/post/75152858606/be-sure-to-check-out-this-great-chart-created

    Anyone familiar with Polish, Russian and Ukrainian knows this to be true. Ukrainian has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. Take even basic words - yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 "tato" in Polish and Ukrainian, "papa" in Russian.

    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.
     
    Apparently, in your world, neither does time spent under Soviet rule, nor loyalty to the Soviet state.

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering.
     
    You can't even.
    , @Sergey Krieger
    Could you educate us on what you consider Sovok mentality?
  48. @Sund
    The Russians are naked nationalists now. Only 20+ years ago they were nominal communists. Have they ever actually believed in anything, or is it all cynical real politik?

    Naked nationalism is the future. Submit!

    https://twitter.com/BronzeAgePirate/status/838320944389160961

    Read More
  49. @Don Bass
    Mention of the Eurovision song competition.
    What a wonderful opportunity/ timing to stage a false flag/ terrorist event. ?
    I feel I have seen so many of these constructed pieces of theatre from the Demons, I can almost predict their next move. Almost. My mind is not consumed with evil, so I can only deduce from their past patterns of behaviour, while they, being evil personified, are endlessly creative in their diabolical plots.

    Boris Johnson is apparently going to Russia to discuss important issues. I presume the most important one will be Russia’s entry to the Eurovisin contest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Russia has nothing to discuss with Bowis and would not presume to take time away from his important Eurovision negotiations in Kiev.
  50. @AP

     Speaking Gascon or Sicilian does not deter Gascons and Sicilians from being the French and Italians respectively.
     Lexical differences between European languages:

    https://alternativetransport.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/lexical-distance-among-the-languages-of-europe-2-1-mid-size.png

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian. This analogy of Sicilian to Italian (or Bavarian to High German) is another Russian nationalist myth.


     Your whole construction will break to pieces when we take into consideration the fact that Ukraine is an artificial phoney nation with an artificial phoney language and a phoney national mythology which could have come into existence only thanks to the unprecedented social experiments of the Soviet wonderland.
     Soviet wonderland resulted in a place ("Novorossiya") that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking. Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.

    As for "phony" language etc. - no less than any other, and less so than Russian. The Russian language is more artificial than most, as it was constructed with a lot of deliberately inserted Church Slavonic and was less an organic and natural speech. Until Pushkin's genius it was quite awkward. In the words of some commenter on another website, "He made the stodgy and awkward lab creation bearing heavy hallmarks of the Church Slavonic simpler, lighter, and closer to a natural language - more Ukrainian-like, if you will. He introduced that simpler, more natural style both in prose and poetry, influenced many others, who pretty soon started writing similarly (Lermontov is a prime example), and thus reformed language then started proliferating downward and horizontally through the system of education."

    "This is as opposed to Ukrainian, which was completely natural and ready-to-use to begin with. Thus Ukrainian authors - Kotliarevsky and Shevchenko first - didn't have to revolutionize anything and simply used their mother tongue. Modern Ukrainian differs very little from Ukrainian used to write "Eneida" in 1798 or "Natalka-Poltavka" a decade later. But if you read anything published in Russian around that period and compare it with post-Pushkin literature, they sound as if written in two different languages."

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian.

    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories) is close to Polish, but most of the rest of the dialects are close to Russian. Many more still speak Russian-Ukrainian surzhyk than the Galician version, the Polish-Yiddish-Ukrainian surzhyk.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories)
     
    Nonsense. In 1992 Ukraine reverted to the pre-1933 Sovok "reforms" language, which was based on the speech of Poltava, not Galicia. It had been originally standardized as "Little Russian" but renamed later in the 19th century.

    The 1933 reforms made Ukrainian more streamlined with Russian (for example, it removed the letter "g" from the pre-Sovok Ukrainian language and made "h" the equivalent to Russian "g").

    Galician dialect is somewhat similar to the Rusyn speech. One hears it in Galician villagers, somewhat rarely in Lviv itself.
  51. @Boris N

    Lexical differences between European languages:
     
    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking.
     
    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.
     
    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Your other "arguments" are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.

    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_of_31_May_%E2%80%93_2_June_1793

    Had Girondins (federalists) prevailed over Montagnards (centralists), where is now France could be today about dozen of nations, all hating each other and the “Parisians”. But history went the other way, and France was made French with fire, sword and wooden shoe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.

    All nations and languages bigger than small village are “fake” in your term, or “socially constructed” in academic speak.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Verymuchalive
    All languages are socially constructed or, rather, formed in society. They are not innate. There must be a society in which they are produced.
    , @Boris N

    All nations and languages bigger than small village are “fake” in your term, or “socially constructed” in academic speak.
     
    You've no idea how Ukraine and Belarus were created.
  52. @Gene Tuttle
    Suggestion to Saker: If you want to be perceived as having a modicum of objectivity instead of as a Kremlin propaganda mouthpiece, you could start by dropping such loaded blends as “Ukronazis” Otherwise you merely come across as a John McCain with an opposite agenda minus the senatorial perks.

    I would like to second that and encourage Mr Karlin to do likewise. It is all a bit tedious. For better understanding of the Ukraine, I would recommend Alexander Mercouris at The Duran and elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    Please point to where I use the term "Ukronazis."

    I use "svidomy," but I also use "vatniks." That is because both terms are useful shorthands for ideological clusters. (okay I sometimes use "svidomites" for particularly egregious cases of svidomism, but only in the comments sections).

    In general, I tend to use "Maidanist Ukraine" or "official Kiev" to denote the current Ukrainian government, neither of which is inaccurate.
  53. @Darin

    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_of_31_May_%E2%80%93_2_June_1793

    Had Girondins (federalists) prevailed over Montagnards (centralists), where is now France could be today about dozen of nations, all hating each other and the "Parisians". But history went the other way, and France was made French with fire, sword and wooden shoe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.
     
    All nations and languages bigger than small village are "fake" in your term, or "socially constructed" in academic speak.

    All languages are socially constructed or, rather, formed in society. They are not innate. There must be a society in which they are produced.

    Read More
  54. @Joe Wong
    USA is in the state of cold civil war since Donald Trump won the election, soon USA itself will be the state this destroying momentum come to dwell and wreck havoc like the dying days of the Roman Empire; people predicted it would be broken into seven pieces.

    After handing your comment to one of my proof reader editors I was apprised of the idea that you think the USA will evolve through cold war into an economic collapse of some parts which other parts will not be compelled to give generous support to cf. 1860s and 1870s South rather than Marshall Plan. Then there will be a geopolitical disintegration based no doubt on the non citizen Latinos being disgruntled Goths. I think perhaps you need more reading of history and fewer wet dreams.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    USA is in the cold civil war is not my idea, it was a comment made by an American intellect on the UNZ Review. It was a Russian scientist’s scientific analysis that the USA would decay and break up in the 7 pieces. Besides a thousand years old Roman Empire was broken into pieces and never returned, and the Romans also claimed they were exceptional just like the American does. It seems you are the one need more reading of history.

    Remember the USSR? it was broken up overnight despite it’s all mighty and power, so will the USA, believing American Exceptionalsim will protect USA from the fate of Roman Empire and USSR is like believing pigs can fly, it is really delusional, USA as an empire is very ordinary, it is walking all the steps all the previous collapsed empires have walked.
  55. @Verymuchalive
    I would like to second that and encourage Mr Karlin to do likewise. It is all a bit tedious. For better understanding of the Ukraine, I would recommend Alexander Mercouris at The Duran and elsewhere.

    Please point to where I use the term “Ukronazis.”

    I use “svidomy,” but I also use “vatniks.” That is because both terms are useful shorthands for ideological clusters. (okay I sometimes use “svidomites” for particularly egregious cases of svidomism, but only in the comments sections).

    In general, I tend to use “Maidanist Ukraine” or “official Kiev” to denote the current Ukrainian government, neither of which is inaccurate.

    Read More
  56. @Boris N

    Lexical differences between European languages:
     
    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking.
     
    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.
     
    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Your other "arguments" are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.

    Lexical differences between European languages:

    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    http://georgetownuniversitypress.tumblr.com/post/75152858606/be-sure-to-check-out-this-great-chart-created

    Anyone familiar with Polish, Russian and Ukrainian knows this to be true. Ukrainian has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. Take even basic words – yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 “tato” in Polish and Ukrainian, “papa” in Russian.

    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Apparently, in your world, neither does time spent under Soviet rule, nor loyalty to the Soviet state.

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering.

    You can’t even.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?
     
    Do not appeal to authority. You have zero expertise in the matter. Tishchenko is a pseudo-science freak, period. His book is anti-scientific rubbish. His diagram has no scientific base. It's a fake.

    Take even basic words – yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 “tato” in Polish and Ukrainian, “papa” in Russian.
     
    Yes, after several centuries of the Polish-Ukrainian "friendship" no wonder. But you still have no idea how the science of linguistics works

    You can’t even.
     
    Said a propaganda bot who copy-pastes answers and disseminates fakes. You are not worth much effort.
  57. American Liberals and Neocons both would love war in the Ukraine, and both would be willing to tell any lie and pull any dirty trick and pay any bribe to get the slaughter ball rolling. The reasons are: ancient Jewish hatred for Russia; the need of the American military-industrial complex to have a Moby Dick to slay (without which the money stops rolling in); the ease with which simpleton Americans (most of whom still think that Iranians and Turks are Arabs) are led to see Russia today as the same thing as the USSR of Brezhnev; the requirement of the self-righteous Puritan/WASP to ‘free’ somebody no matter the body count much less the monetary costs; and the need of all Empires to act preemptively against any possible rival to even an edge of its claimed sphere of influence (which for the Yankee Empire, the successor to the British Empire, is the world).

    Read More
  58. Speaking only for myself, I find it very refreshing to see — in the Anglophone blogosphere! — Ukronazis being called what they are. It moves us just a tiny bit closer to the much needed balance…

    Read More
  59. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Ukrainian is closer to Polish than to Russian.
     
    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories) is close to Polish, but most of the rest of the dialects are close to Russian. Many more still speak Russian-Ukrainian surzhyk than the Galician version, the Polish-Yiddish-Ukrainian surzhyk.

    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories)

    Nonsense. In 1992 Ukraine reverted to the pre-1933 Sovok “reforms” language, which was based on the speech of Poltava, not Galicia. It had been originally standardized as “Little Russian” but renamed later in the 19th century.

    The 1933 reforms made Ukrainian more streamlined with Russian (for example, it removed the letter “g” from the pre-Sovok Ukrainian language and made “h” the equivalent to Russian “g”).

    Galician dialect is somewhat similar to the Rusyn speech. One hears it in Galician villagers, somewhat rarely in Lviv itself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji
    Right, so the letter 'g' used only in western Ukraine, and completely unknown elsewhere, was added to the alphabet in 1990. QED. And anyway, it's not exactly a secret that Kravchuk let people from the west (Lvov, mostly) to define the language and pretty much the whole education system to their liking. Which is, incidentally, one of the reasons (if a relatively small one) for the west-center vs. east-south split, and eventually for the current civil war.
  60. @Boris N


    Danish enjoy to Russia, Jul Just, writing in the beginning of the 1700s (to early for things ot have changed a great deal since Russia took over):

    “The inhabitants of the Chernihiv province, as well as the entire population of kozak Ukraine, are known for their politeness and cleanliness, dressing neatly and keeping their homes immaculately clean.”

    “Korolevets is a big town…the streets are beautiful, such as I never saw in Russia; the buildings are stately, strong and clean and are along the streets as in Denmark…”
     
    These are fakes. Those words are not found either in the Russian translation or in the Danish original. Your citation in English is found only in a couple of forums and in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists (hint how to detect Ukranian propagandists: they write things like "Unlike in Muscovy"). Funny enough, it is also found here on unz.com, the very same citation was made by you a while ago. So you are nothing but a Ukranian propaganda bot. How many hryvnias do they pay today to propaganda bots? Or you are another "daughter of a Crimean officer" from Maryland, aren't you?

    For your information, Russia "took over" Chernigov in 1503.

    in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists

    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.

    For your information, Russia “took over” Chernigov in 1503.

    Briefly. But later:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Voivodeship

    Or you are another “daughter of a Crimean officer” from Maryland, aren’t you?

    I am curious about what this refers to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JL

    I am curious about what this refers to.
     
    It's a rather famous internet meme in Russia from about three years ago during the takeover of Crimea. Some US-based Ukrainian troll on some social medium claimed to be the daughter of an officer living in Crimea for 50 years and that opinions there weren't as one sided as Russian media were presenting them. The only problem was that "she" forgot to log in under "her" alias and was busted immediately.
    , @Boris N

    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.
     
    So you for sure can provide us with the original. Of course, in case you really read those books and not copy-paste the text from your propaganda manual.

    Briefly. But later:
     
    Yes, 1618-1503=115 vs 1667-1618=49. Nationalistic maths can beat anything.

    I am curious about what this refers to.
     
    Do not pretend such an experienced propaganda bot like yourself does not know that meme.
  61. @Boris N

    Lexical differences between European languages:
     
    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.

    Soviet wonderland resulted in a place (“Novorossiya”) that had been, prior opt Soviet wonderland, 80% Little Russian/Ukrainian speaking into one that was 80% Great Russian/Russian speaking.
     
    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.

    Homo Sovieticus was a Russian-speaker. True deconstruction of the Sovok legacy in Ukraine means returning to the Ukrainian (or Little Russian) language.
     
    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.

    Your other "arguments" are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.

    Could you educate us on what you consider Sovok mentality?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N
    Simply what has happened in Ukraine. Euromaidan ideology is very Sovok, it could have happened only with a people of Sovok mentality. They just substituted the EU fairyland for communism, the essence remained the same. Euromaidanists wanted communism, that is everything for nothing.
  62. @AP

    There are many Ukrainian dialects. The Galician dialect (that received the official status after 1992, and still has it on the Kiev-controlled territories)
     
    Nonsense. In 1992 Ukraine reverted to the pre-1933 Sovok "reforms" language, which was based on the speech of Poltava, not Galicia. It had been originally standardized as "Little Russian" but renamed later in the 19th century.

    The 1933 reforms made Ukrainian more streamlined with Russian (for example, it removed the letter "g" from the pre-Sovok Ukrainian language and made "h" the equivalent to Russian "g").

    Galician dialect is somewhat similar to the Rusyn speech. One hears it in Galician villagers, somewhat rarely in Lviv itself.

    Right, so the letter ‘g’ used only in western Ukraine, and completely unknown elsewhere, was added to the alphabet in 1990. QED. And anyway, it’s not exactly a secret that Kravchuk let people from the west (Lvov, mostly) to define the language and pretty much the whole education system to their liking. Which is, incidentally, one of the reasons (if a relatively small one) for the west-center vs. east-south split, and eventually for the current civil war.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    Right, so the letter ‘g’ used only in western Ukraine, and completely unknown elsewhere, was added to the alphabet in 1990.
     
    Completely unknown?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghe_with_upturn

    "As far as linguistic studies are concerned, the letter ‹ґ› was first introduced into the Slavic alphabet in 1619 by Meletius Smotrytsky in his "Slavic Grammar" (Грамматіки славєнскиѧ правилноє Сѵнтаґма).[4] Later, for an identical purpose, it was saved in the new orthography of Ukrainian."

    Smotrytsky was Metropolitan of Kiev.

    Little Russian (later Ukrainian) of Kulish used the Latin letter "g", another orthography used"кг". The Bolsheviks eliminated that letter (and made other changes) in order to streamline Ukrainian into Russian.

    And anyway, it’s not exactly a secret that Kravchuk let people from the west (Lvov, mostly) to define the language and pretty much the whole education system to their liking.
     
    Maybe. They were probably overrespented. But - you don't have the best track record in terms of accuracy for your claims. The education ministers under Kravchuk were Ivan Zyazun from Chernihiv and Petro Talanchyk from Kiev oblast. The first western Ukrainian to become minister of education was under Kuchma.
  63. Turkey is expecting a mass of tourists from Ukraine! Who are they? I thought Ukraine was bankupt…

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  64. […] 05, 2017 “Information Clearing House” –  “Unz Review” […]

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  65. @Wizard of Oz
    After handing your comment to one of my proof reader editors I was apprised of the idea that you think the USA will evolve through cold war into an economic collapse of some parts which other parts will not be compelled to give generous support to cf. 1860s and 1870s South rather than Marshall Plan. Then there will be a geopolitical disintegration based no doubt on the non citizen Latinos being disgruntled Goths. I think perhaps you need more reading of history and fewer wet dreams.

    USA is in the cold civil war is not my idea, it was a comment made by an American intellect on the UNZ Review. It was a Russian scientist’s scientific analysis that the USA would decay and break up in the 7 pieces. Besides a thousand years old Roman Empire was broken into pieces and never returned, and the Romans also claimed they were exceptional just like the American does. It seems you are the one need more reading of history.

    Remember the USSR? it was broken up overnight despite it’s all mighty and power, so will the USA, believing American Exceptionalsim will protect USA from the fate of Roman Empire and USSR is like believing pigs can fly, it is really delusional, USA as an empire is very ordinary, it is walking all the steps all the previous collapsed empires have walked.

    Read More
  66. @Wally
    The Saker's favorite, infantile word, Ukronazis, is an indication of his pathetic indoctrination.

    There were the ‘Nazis’ with the mythological '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' and there were the ‘Nazis’ without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."
    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     
    Why have supremacist Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since at least 1869?
    http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/WhiteWolf722/TheSixMillionMyth.jpg

    http://forum.codoh.com and http://codoh.com are created by the unrepentant war criminal Japanese who wants to create a precedent to legitimize their denying their barbaric, beastly, inhuman and evil war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they committed before 1945.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Put down the bottle & pipe.
    , @Daniel Chieh
    Dude, just stop it already.
  67. Could someone explain, why, if there aren’t any ethnic Russians in Eastern Ukraine, Yulia Tympshenko wanted to nuke 8 million of them?

    Also, since it’s clear that there are quite a few people in the Ukraine who don’t like being ruled by the Poroshenkite junta, why not have a referendum in every oblast to determine how people wish to live: as part of the Ukraine, ruled by the present bunch in Kiev; as a self-governing independent state; or as part of one of the adjoining states?

    Or is that too democratic for the proponents of Western democracy?

    Read More
  68. @Joe Wong
    http://forum.codoh.com and http://codoh.com are created by the unrepentant war criminal Japanese who wants to create a precedent to legitimize their denying their barbaric, beastly, inhuman and evil war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they committed before 1945.

    Put down the bottle & pipe.

    Read More
  69. The ongoing tragedy of Ukraine: http://thesaker.is/poroshenko-doesnt-want-another-maidan-sitrep/
    The main points of the State Dept. plan for Ukraine was a civil war near the Russian borders and Ukraine’s incorporation into NATO. For now, Ukraine at large is descending into a life of deprivation and danger, with no conditions present for a decent, workable solution.

    Saker: “… per Rostislav Ishchenko’s opinion, Poroshenko believes in himself being chosen by God, and will never agree to step down voluntarily, despite of the all-Ukrainian consensus that he should. His opponents cannot create a consolidated Nazi regime due to ongoing infighting. The hate towards Poroshenko is what unites the groups of the Right Sector, Timoshenko and Turchynov, Galician “Svoboda” and “Samopomich,” Biletsky’s “Azov,” Kolomoisky and Tyahnybok, SBU, the Police, the National Guards, and the military. When he is gone, all these political parties and fractions, armed formations, foreign troops and gangs will start fighting with each other for power and something to steal.”
    The mess that Nuland-Kagan made…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    "The main points of the State Dept. plan for Ukraine was a civil war near the Russian borders and Ukraine’s incorporation into NATO." Leaked to the public domain when, exactly? Or is this the plan Russian nationalists wish the US State Department had to make the Nationalists feel important?
  70. @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting and, as far as I can tell, knowledgeable but I question your first reference to Ireland if what you are saying is that the severance of Northern Ireland (cp. the Donbass) freed up Ireland to prosper. It didn't prosper from 1921 to the 1990s so doesn't seem to be a reason for optimism by the Ukrainians.

    My interest in this situation is primarily in regard to the US playing role of global bully right into World War 3. The most vociferous anti-Russians in the US are that crazy. I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU, who are like the American leaders minus common sense and with an extra dose of desire for cultural suicide.

    But the history is interesting. What I would like to know are answers to the following questions.

    1) How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea?

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU,
     
    Poland is doing fine in the EU. Muslims under 1% of the population, and staying that way. It flaunts most western Euro norms just fine. I'm not sure if a country integrated with Russia could behave as "insolently" towards Moscow as Poland does towards Brussels.

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries. And it is in a customs union with Muslim countries in central Asia.

    How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea
     
    About a year around 1917, and 25 years post 1991 since the USSR collapsed.

    There was also an independent Cossack state for about 6 years in the 17th century which became an autonomous part of Russia, gradually losing its autonomy until full integration in 1764.

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?
     
    Timeline for what parts of Ukraine were ruled by whom:

    Kiev City and eastern Ukraine: Lithuania, Poland 1362 - 1648 (about 300 years); independent 1648-1654 (6 years); autonomous (own military, legal system, locally elected ruler) but under the Russian tsar until 1709 (55 years); diminished autonomy until 1764 (55 years); integrated part of Russian Empire until 1917 (153 years); Ukrainian SSR 1918- 1991 (73 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The "Right Bank" - everything west of the river Dnipro, including half of Kiev province: part of Lithuania and Poland 1362-1793 (429 years); integrated part of Russia until 1917 (124 years); Ukrainian SSR 1919-1991 (72 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Volynia - same as "Right Bank" but unlike the rest of the Rght Bank was part of Poland from 1919-1939, missing the first 20 years of Soviet rule.

    Galicia - part of Poland 1349-1772 (423 years); part of Austria 1772-1918 (146 years); part of Poland 1919-1939 (20 years), part of Ukrainian SSR 1939-1991 (52 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).
    , @Wizard of Oz
    See #81
    , @Philip Owen
    The EU's problems are those of runaway success. Too much, too soon, partly due to UK Tory insistence on enlargement rather than deepening. Peace and democratic stability bought to the Med (see Turkey for last remaining non EU autocracy), the East (see Russia and Ukraine for non EU post communism) without discussing France and Germany.

    The Eurozone, a mere 10 years old, survived a once in generation raw materials spike (the real economy driver of the bank collapse) without losing a member. Now the oil price is down the whole EU is starting a 15-20 year boom. Gap closing time on the US again.

    Environmentally, the EU is way ahead of the US which has done nothing serious since Nixon.
  71. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Right, so the letter 'g' used only in western Ukraine, and completely unknown elsewhere, was added to the alphabet in 1990. QED. And anyway, it's not exactly a secret that Kravchuk let people from the west (Lvov, mostly) to define the language and pretty much the whole education system to their liking. Which is, incidentally, one of the reasons (if a relatively small one) for the west-center vs. east-south split, and eventually for the current civil war.

    Right, so the letter ‘g’ used only in western Ukraine, and completely unknown elsewhere, was added to the alphabet in 1990.

    Completely unknown?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghe_with_upturn

    “As far as linguistic studies are concerned, the letter ‹ґ› was first introduced into the Slavic alphabet in 1619 by Meletius Smotrytsky in his “Slavic Grammar” (Грамматіки славєнскиѧ правилноє Сѵнтаґма).[4] Later, for an identical purpose, it was saved in the new orthography of Ukrainian.”

    Smotrytsky was Metropolitan of Kiev.

    Little Russian (later Ukrainian) of Kulish used the Latin letter “g”, another orthography used”кг”. The Bolsheviks eliminated that letter (and made other changes) in order to streamline Ukrainian into Russian.

    And anyway, it’s not exactly a secret that Kravchuk let people from the west (Lvov, mostly) to define the language and pretty much the whole education system to their liking.

    Maybe. They were probably overrespented. But – you don’t have the best track record in terms of accuracy for your claims. The education ministers under Kravchuk were Ivan Zyazun from Chernihiv and Petro Talanchyk from Kiev oblast. The first western Ukrainian to become minister of education was under Kuchma.

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  72. @Boris N
    I hate when people call DNR-LNR Novorussia and Novorussians. Real true Novorussia is a vast region stretching from the Dniester River right to the Don River and even far beyond (see the city of Novorossiysk).

    DNR-LNR are not Novorussia, but a very tiny bit of it. It's like calling Manhattan the East Coast.

    Obviously, The Saker has little idea about the history of the region he is speaking about.

    I hate when people call DNR-LNR Novorussia and Novorussians. Real true Novorussia is a vast region stretching from the Dniester River right to the Don River and even far beyond (see the city of Novorossiysk).

    He may be referring to the political project that has failed to take root anywhere in Ukraine other than in DNR-LNR territory.

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  73. @Ram
    Boris Johnson is apparently going to Russia to discuss important issues. I presume the most important one will be Russia's entry to the Eurovisin contest.

    Russia has nothing to discuss with Bowis and would not presume to take time away from his important Eurovision negotiations in Kiev.

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  74. @Jake
    My interest in this situation is primarily in regard to the US playing role of global bully right into World War 3. The most vociferous anti-Russians in the US are that crazy. I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU, who are like the American leaders minus common sense and with an extra dose of desire for cultural suicide.

    But the history is interesting. What I would like to know are answers to the following questions.

    1) How many years total - in all history - has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by 'Ukrainian nationalists,' and that includes the Crimea?

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU,

    Poland is doing fine in the EU. Muslims under 1% of the population, and staying that way. It flaunts most western Euro norms just fine. I’m not sure if a country integrated with Russia could behave as “insolently” towards Moscow as Poland does towards Brussels.

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries. And it is in a customs union with Muslim countries in central Asia.

    How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea

    About a year around 1917, and 25 years post 1991 since the USSR collapsed.

    There was also an independent Cossack state for about 6 years in the 17th century which became an autonomous part of Russia, gradually losing its autonomy until full integration in 1764.

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    Timeline for what parts of Ukraine were ruled by whom:

    Kiev City and eastern Ukraine: Lithuania, Poland 1362 – 1648 (about 300 years); independent 1648-1654 (6 years); autonomous (own military, legal system, locally elected ruler) but under the Russian tsar until 1709 (55 years); diminished autonomy until 1764 (55 years); integrated part of Russian Empire until 1917 (153 years); Ukrainian SSR 1918- 1991 (73 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The “Right Bank” – everything west of the river Dnipro, including half of Kiev province: part of Lithuania and Poland 1362-1793 (429 years); integrated part of Russia until 1917 (124 years); Ukrainian SSR 1919-1991 (72 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Volynia – same as “Right Bank” but unlike the rest of the Rght Bank was part of Poland from 1919-1939, missing the first 20 years of Soviet rule.

    Galicia – part of Poland 1349-1772 (423 years); part of Austria 1772-1918 (146 years); part of Poland 1919-1939 (20 years), part of Ukrainian SSR 1939-1991 (52 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If you want debating points against Russian chauvinists you might point out that from 1945 to 1991 Ukraine and Byelorussia were both recognised as member nations of the UN. It could be a useful test question too. If they don't know that treat them as disqualified to speak about Ukrainian identity and nationhood.
    , @Felix Keverich

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries.
     
    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe. The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point. I'm not joking.
    , @Jake
    The EU is first flooding western Europe with Moslems. Anyone who thinks that Eastern European nations in the EU and NATO will avoid that fate is hopelessly naive.

    Russia has ruled large numbers of Moslems because Russia had to conquer to prevent their endless wars against Christian peoples in the region. That is a far different thing than largely atheist Western Liberals importing Moslems from the Middle East and Africa by the millions. Russians do not have a bleeding heart history toward Moslems, but Western Liberals do. The vast majority of Liberal Jews in the US are now all gaga for Moslem immigration, and most Liberals back the idea of Affirmative Action preferences for Moslems.

    That ought to scare the Hell out of everybody in Eastern Europe part of the EU or wanting to be.
  75. […] Snubs Poroshenko and Congress Cuts War Aid”.  “The Donbass Is Breaking Away from an Agonized Ukraine”.  “New Cold War tensions are […]

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  76. @Boris N

    You are repeating Russian nationalist Mythology.
     
    Even your state propagandists, who are making up your nationalist mythology and brainwash Ukrainian schoolchildren, admit that the southern third of modern Ukraine was an unpopulated "wild field", the central third was sparsely populated, and only the western third had enough population.
    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/g9/Maps/6.jpg
    http://ukrmap.su/program2009/uh8/Maps/8_03.jpg
    (Source: "Atlas z istoriyi Ukrayiny".)

    The country was called "Borderland" for a reason, because 50 miles to the south of Kiev there was no-man's land.

    Kiev was a bustling town and major center of Orthodox culture (Collegium Kiyovense Mohileanum was founded in 1632).
     
    I wouldn't call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) "bustling". Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits. But Moscow did not face any threats to their faith, so there was no need in Christian madrasas. When Peter I established the real academy and technical schools those Ukrainian madrasas which taught mainly religion became outdated and obsolete.

    [About Kiev] I wouldn’t call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) “bustling”. Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits.

    Population varied from 15,000 to 10,000. In context, Warsaw, Poland’s capital, had around 30,000 people and Krakow around 25,000 in the 17th century. These were the main cities of what was at the time a world power. Other cities – Edinburgh had 8,000 people in 1592, Berlin 17,500 in 1685, etc.

    What you call a “Madrasa” was recognized as an Academy in 1658 (having previously been a Collegium), enjoying similar status to Krakow Academy (now Jagiellonian University).

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church. It produced the Russian Empire’s first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.

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    • Replies: @Boris N
    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals?

    In context,
     
    The context was noble Kiev vs loathsome Tataro-Moscow, not Kiev and Edinburgh.

    What you call a “Madrasa” was recognized as an Academy in 1658
     
    Do you know what madrasa means?

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church.
     
    As expected a madrasa produced religious leaders, that is parasites.

    It produced the Russian Empire’s first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.
     
    Yes, it became useful when barbarous Moskals and their tyrannic khan had converted a madrasa to a true European university.
  77. @AP

    I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU,
     
    Poland is doing fine in the EU. Muslims under 1% of the population, and staying that way. It flaunts most western Euro norms just fine. I'm not sure if a country integrated with Russia could behave as "insolently" towards Moscow as Poland does towards Brussels.

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries. And it is in a customs union with Muslim countries in central Asia.

    How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea
     
    About a year around 1917, and 25 years post 1991 since the USSR collapsed.

    There was also an independent Cossack state for about 6 years in the 17th century which became an autonomous part of Russia, gradually losing its autonomy until full integration in 1764.

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?
     
    Timeline for what parts of Ukraine were ruled by whom:

    Kiev City and eastern Ukraine: Lithuania, Poland 1362 - 1648 (about 300 years); independent 1648-1654 (6 years); autonomous (own military, legal system, locally elected ruler) but under the Russian tsar until 1709 (55 years); diminished autonomy until 1764 (55 years); integrated part of Russian Empire until 1917 (153 years); Ukrainian SSR 1918- 1991 (73 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The "Right Bank" - everything west of the river Dnipro, including half of Kiev province: part of Lithuania and Poland 1362-1793 (429 years); integrated part of Russia until 1917 (124 years); Ukrainian SSR 1919-1991 (72 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Volynia - same as "Right Bank" but unlike the rest of the Rght Bank was part of Poland from 1919-1939, missing the first 20 years of Soviet rule.

    Galicia - part of Poland 1349-1772 (423 years); part of Austria 1772-1918 (146 years); part of Poland 1919-1939 (20 years), part of Ukrainian SSR 1939-1991 (52 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    If you want debating points against Russian chauvinists you might point out that from 1945 to 1991 Ukraine and Byelorussia were both recognised as member nations of the UN. It could be a useful test question too. If they don’t know that treat them as disqualified to speak about Ukrainian identity and nationhood.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    I'm aware of that, but you seem to misunderstand what actually happened. It wasn't like UN recognized Ukraine as a separate country in some sort of rebuke to "Russian chauvinists". Joseph Stalin simply arranged for Moscow to have more voting power at the new international organization. Instead of one vote, USSR had 3! But these diplomatic machinations didn't make "Ukrainian identity" any more of a real thing.
  78. @Jake
    My interest in this situation is primarily in regard to the US playing role of global bully right into World War 3. The most vociferous anti-Russians in the US are that crazy. I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU, who are like the American leaders minus common sense and with an extra dose of desire for cultural suicide.

    But the history is interesting. What I would like to know are answers to the following questions.

    1) How many years total - in all history - has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by 'Ukrainian nationalists,' and that includes the Crimea?

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    See #81

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  79. @AP

    in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists
     
    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.

    For your information, Russia “took over” Chernigov in 1503.
     
    Briefly. But later:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Voivodeship

    Or you are another “daughter of a Crimean officer” from Maryland, aren’t you?
     
    I am curious about what this refers to.

    I am curious about what this refers to.

    It’s a rather famous internet meme in Russia from about three years ago during the takeover of Crimea. Some US-based Ukrainian troll on some social medium claimed to be the daughter of an officer living in Crimea for 50 years and that opinions there weren’t as one sided as Russian media were presenting them. The only problem was that “she” forgot to log in under “her” alias and was busted immediately.

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  80. @Wizard of Oz
    If you want debating points against Russian chauvinists you might point out that from 1945 to 1991 Ukraine and Byelorussia were both recognised as member nations of the UN. It could be a useful test question too. If they don't know that treat them as disqualified to speak about Ukrainian identity and nationhood.

    I’m aware of that, but you seem to misunderstand what actually happened. It wasn’t like UN recognized Ukraine as a separate country in some sort of rebuke to “Russian chauvinists”. Joseph Stalin simply arranged for Moscow to have more voting power at the new international organization. Instead of one vote, USSR had 3! But these diplomatic machinations didn’t make “Ukrainian identity” any more of a real thing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue "we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations". Nor would he have said "three votes or we march on München" so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Absolutely correct, and extremely important.
  81. @AP

    I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU,
     
    Poland is doing fine in the EU. Muslims under 1% of the population, and staying that way. It flaunts most western Euro norms just fine. I'm not sure if a country integrated with Russia could behave as "insolently" towards Moscow as Poland does towards Brussels.

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries. And it is in a customs union with Muslim countries in central Asia.

    How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea
     
    About a year around 1917, and 25 years post 1991 since the USSR collapsed.

    There was also an independent Cossack state for about 6 years in the 17th century which became an autonomous part of Russia, gradually losing its autonomy until full integration in 1764.

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?
     
    Timeline for what parts of Ukraine were ruled by whom:

    Kiev City and eastern Ukraine: Lithuania, Poland 1362 - 1648 (about 300 years); independent 1648-1654 (6 years); autonomous (own military, legal system, locally elected ruler) but under the Russian tsar until 1709 (55 years); diminished autonomy until 1764 (55 years); integrated part of Russian Empire until 1917 (153 years); Ukrainian SSR 1918- 1991 (73 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The "Right Bank" - everything west of the river Dnipro, including half of Kiev province: part of Lithuania and Poland 1362-1793 (429 years); integrated part of Russia until 1917 (124 years); Ukrainian SSR 1919-1991 (72 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Volynia - same as "Right Bank" but unlike the rest of the Rght Bank was part of Poland from 1919-1939, missing the first 20 years of Soviet rule.

    Galicia - part of Poland 1349-1772 (423 years); part of Austria 1772-1918 (146 years); part of Poland 1919-1939 (20 years), part of Ukrainian SSR 1939-1991 (52 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries.

    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe. The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point. I’m not joking.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe.
     
    Russia was about 11% Muslim according to official data in 2010, about the same as France. With the many unofficial migrant laborers the Russian number is certainly a few % higher. Only 4% of Russians are Tatars.

    Non-Tatar Muslims plus migrant laborers from Central Asia may be a higher % of people in Russia than Muslims in most European countries.

    The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point.
     
    Than Carpathian villagers? Perhaps. On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan, if by civilized you mean educated, livable, clean, well-organized, and safe. The same is probably true of Ivano-Frankivsk, compared to Russian cities of its size.

    Here is Lviv in 2014

    Here is Tver in 2014

    Lviv manages to do this in spite of being much poorer. A sign of a higher level of civilization.
  82. […] 05, 2017 “Information Clearing House” –  “Unz Review” – Tectonic shifts are continuing to occur in the political landscape of the Ukraine. […]

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  83. “Ukronazis”? Nazis were German. There are no nazis anywhere else. Nazism is uniquely German, and it’s all gone and done with.

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    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    You are being sarcastic, right? There were plenty of non-German Nazis, and they turned out to be the most savage troops because they had plenty to lose.
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Tiny tiny bit naive. (sorry)
  84. @Felix Keverich
    I'm aware of that, but you seem to misunderstand what actually happened. It wasn't like UN recognized Ukraine as a separate country in some sort of rebuke to "Russian chauvinists". Joseph Stalin simply arranged for Moscow to have more voting power at the new international organization. Instead of one vote, USSR had 3! But these diplomatic machinations didn't make "Ukrainian identity" any more of a real thing.

    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue “we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations”. Nor would he have said “three votes or we march on München” so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????

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    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    Stalin and his associates were committed communists. From their perspective, there was no such thing as a nation. All people were considered the same and equal, and the goal was to bring them all together in a global Soviet superstate.

    You know that you're standing on shaky ground, when you must harken back to communist regime as a source of legitimacy for Ukraine, its present borders, territorial claims to Crimea etc.

    Nor would he have said “three votes or we march on München” so what was the argument used in that debate?
     
    You meant it to be sarcastic, I think the fact that Soviet army was occupying central Europe did give him some leverage.
    , @CanSpeccy

    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue “we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations”.
     
    But Stalin recognized every one of the soviets as a distinct nation. It was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that ruled the lot of them. That is why the SU disintegrated in 1991. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was banned throughout the
    Soviet Union on August 29, 1991.
    , @Erebus

    ... so what was the argument used in that debate?
     
    Um, how about:
    "We get 3 votes to counterbalance your preponderance of votes in the GA, or you and your UN can go hang."

    You will note that their placement on the linked list suggests the true status of their "membership":
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Conference_on_International_Organization#Participant_countries

    "The participation of Belarus and Ukraine at the conference was given to Stalin by Churchill and Roosevelt's concession.... For this purpose, modifications were made to the constitutions of the two republics in question, so that Belarus and Ukraine's international legal subjects were limited, while they were still part of the Soviet Union."
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Happily commenters have been able to make me better informed without abusing me and failing to notice that I carefully said "debating point" (actually not a bad one to throw at young Russian chauvinists who would probably be as nonplussed as a Young Republican asked to compare the roles of Colonel House and Harold Hopkins - who????) :-)
  85. @Don Bass
    Why is the role of John McCain in the Ukraine mess not loudly "outed".
    There is a "scandal" consuming US congress this week that Jeff Sessions once spoke to a Russian (the ambassador!)! While serving on the Congress security committee - but McCain is on that same committee and uses it as "cover" to travel to nasty conflict zones like Syria and Ukraine and agitate for more violence - and yet his role is never really revealed and reviled.
    Why?

    “Why is the role of John McCain in the Ukraine mess not loudly “outed”.”

    Why isn’t he the next target of an allegation of violating the Logan Act?

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  86. @Liza
    "Ukronazis"? Nazis were German. There are no nazis anywhere else. Nazism is uniquely German, and it's all gone and done with.

    You are being sarcastic, right? There were plenty of non-German Nazis, and they turned out to be the most savage troops because they had plenty to lose.

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    • Replies: @Jake
    Gay S&M violence tied to a viable political party is attractive in many lands.
  87. More idiocy and lies by Saker. The Donbas is not “breaking away” from a collapsing Ukraine. Putin is just playing more of the same games he’s been playing since his handlers got him in a Yeltsin’s Prime Minster.

    Putin’s Russia is digging a deeper hole for herself. Putin has set an unsustainable course for Russia that will lead to Phase 2 of the Soviet Collapse. He’s already burned through his reserves and the funds required to pay pensions are all that’s left. Most pensions are already going unpaid as it is.

    Putin is the last President of Russia and may well end his life in the same way as the last Tsar. Nothing Saker raves about will change that fact.

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  88. @Wizard of Oz
    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue "we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations". Nor would he have said "three votes or we march on München" so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????

    Stalin and his associates were committed communists. From their perspective, there was no such thing as a nation. All people were considered the same and equal, and the goal was to bring them all together in a global Soviet superstate.

    You know that you’re standing on shaky ground, when you must harken back to communist regime as a source of legitimacy for Ukraine, its present borders, territorial claims to Crimea etc.

    Nor would he have said “three votes or we march on München” so what was the argument used in that debate?

    You meant it to be sarcastic, I think the fact that Soviet army was occupying central Europe did give him some leverage.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Felix, the communist borders that is exactly the point. The same as with US "lefties" now, the minorities in the communist countries almost always had greater rights than the majority. To keep them satisfied the communist regime had to cuddle them and keep giving them presents, one of which was Crimea, but there were many, many other.

    Now, when the West took over the management of the former communist block countries, the West insisted on communist drawn borders because they were beneficial to their new clients. Nothing better than giving other people's lands and property as a welcoming gift. However, there is at least one example where even the communist drawn borders were not good enough and this is the example of Serbian Kosovo. After insisting on desolving Yugoslavia along communist drawn borders (drawn by a Croatian communist dictator Tito), the West turned around and said that this rule on borders applies to everyone except Serbia. Then it bombed Serbia to separate Kosovo, that is 15% of mineral richest part of Serbia and give it to Albania. Now Kosovo is not a fully internationally recognised state but it has no border with Albania. It has been annexed to Albania for all intents and purposes. A similar fate now awaits Macedonia, which the loud and aggressive Albanian minority want also to annex to Albania. The US and EU support Albanians and hope, for now, that this annexation would happen politically rather than militarily.

    , @Wizard of Oz
    See #132 (meant to be @Kiza and #134 more or less dullicated as a result of an exogenous (to UR) softwarecproblem.
  89. @Felix Keverich

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries.
     
    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe. The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point. I'm not joking.

    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe.

    Russia was about 11% Muslim according to official data in 2010, about the same as France. With the many unofficial migrant laborers the Russian number is certainly a few % higher. Only 4% of Russians are Tatars.

    Non-Tatar Muslims plus migrant laborers from Central Asia may be a higher % of people in Russia than Muslims in most European countries.

    The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point.

    Than Carpathian villagers? Perhaps. On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan, if by civilized you mean educated, livable, clean, well-organized, and safe. The same is probably true of Ivano-Frankivsk, compared to Russian cities of its size.

    Here is Lviv in 2014

    Here is Tver in 2014

    Lviv manages to do this in spite of being much poorer. A sign of a higher level of civilization.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    You need to check the names of the outstanding scientists and mathematicians that grew up and were educated in the Soviet Union/Russian federation. Also, please do no be shy in divulging a fact that the USSR was the first affirmative-action country.
    , @EugeneGur

    On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan,
     
    I am not sure what you mean by being civilized: Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov. Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it, - is that your idea of civilization?

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic, worse than Moldova, worse even than the Central Asia. They really have nothing to be proud of.
  90. @Kirt
    Saker, are there any reliable charitable organizations you could recommend which provide aid for injured or displaced people in Novorussia? I try to use at least some of my charitable contributions to help people damaged by the foreign policy of the US regime; in other words, to counteract the evil use of my tax money. Thank you.

    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html

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    • Replies: @AP

    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html
     
    American criminal needs your help:

    https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/618062852558069760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw
  91. @Philip Owen
    So Russia loses. Big time.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine's integration into NATO and the EU. Ukraine can get on with its future without being held back by relics of Russian colonial settlement during the Imperial era. (see Ireland for a similar example)

    A lack of strong support from Russian for civilian life, there is still a Ukrainian majority in the Donbass, will make the place restless for generations. Russia now has to spend billions on reconstruction or face the consequences of instability as an armed nationalist base is established.

    We won't know it all. The less reliable leaders who know the details of the Russian nationalist infiltration in 2014 have largely been assassinated or should clearly understand their likely fate if they talk.

    There are now 1.5 million refugees (IDPs) in Ukraine who will hate Russia for generations and 350k refugees in Russia with very mixed feelings about the wisdom of the whole adventure.

    Population prior to the Russian nationalist insurgency (read Girkin if you doubt it) was 4.5m of which 3.5m were ethnic Ukrainian and 1 m ethnic Russians (No, speaking English does not make a Scotsman English - same for Ukrainians). Remove refugees. 2m Ukrainians still present and 650 thousand Russians. The Russians are still a minority whatever adjustments to be made for pensioners registered in Ukraine or young men dodging the draft (a million went to Russia at one point, some of them are still there, unregistered - they didn't have a great reception). In Northern Ireland, the proportions of natives to settlers were reversed. Even so, the minority caused a lot of trouble. What happens when the majority are the discontented? Leaders will emerge eventually. The more their emergence is repressed, the greater the ultimate violence.

    The Ukrainians in the Donbass will need much bribing to make them love their new country.

    The Russian far right (which does not include Putin but he sympathises) provoked this from the beginning which you can take as the August 2013 Customs Blockade that triggered the Maidan or interference in the 2004 election - Putin actually campaigned in Ukraine, the US exit poll was a reaction.

    An independent rump Donbass will not be used as a block against Ukraine’s integration into NATO and the EU.

    That would have been a sensible solution to the problem from the start: have a vote and let each province of Ukraine decide whether they want to go with Russia or with NATO, and break the country up accordingly. In fact, it’s such a reasonable win-win solution, it almost makes you wonder why NATO never made such an offer to Russia.

    But of course, there is a reason: NATO coveted Crimea, which would definitely have voted to become part of Russia, as, indeed, it did. Without Sebastopol, however, Ukraine is of little use to NATO. The only purpose it can conceivably serve now is to destabilize Russia–but so far this plan has failed.

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  92. @Gene Tuttle
    Suggestion to Saker: If you want to be perceived as having a modicum of objectivity instead of as a Kremlin propaganda mouthpiece, you could start by dropping such loaded blends as “Ukronazis” Otherwise you merely come across as a John McCain with an opposite agenda minus the senatorial perks.

    Maybe a negation of John McCain is precisely what the world needs right now.

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  93. @Liza
    "Ukronazis"? Nazis were German. There are no nazis anywhere else. Nazism is uniquely German, and it's all gone and done with.

    Tiny tiny bit naive. (sorry)

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  94. @Felix Keverich
    I'm aware of that, but you seem to misunderstand what actually happened. It wasn't like UN recognized Ukraine as a separate country in some sort of rebuke to "Russian chauvinists". Joseph Stalin simply arranged for Moscow to have more voting power at the new international organization. Instead of one vote, USSR had 3! But these diplomatic machinations didn't make "Ukrainian identity" any more of a real thing.

    Absolutely correct, and extremely important.

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  95. @AP

    I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU,
     
    Poland is doing fine in the EU. Muslims under 1% of the population, and staying that way. It flaunts most western Euro norms just fine. I'm not sure if a country integrated with Russia could behave as "insolently" towards Moscow as Poland does towards Brussels.

    Russia is at least as Muslim as the most Muslim of the EU countries. And it is in a customs union with Muslim countries in central Asia.

    How many years total – in all history – has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by ‘Ukrainian nationalists,’ and that includes the Crimea
     
    About a year around 1917, and 25 years post 1991 since the USSR collapsed.

    There was also an independent Cossack state for about 6 years in the 17th century which became an autonomous part of Russia, gradually losing its autonomy until full integration in 1764.

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?
     
    Timeline for what parts of Ukraine were ruled by whom:

    Kiev City and eastern Ukraine: Lithuania, Poland 1362 - 1648 (about 300 years); independent 1648-1654 (6 years); autonomous (own military, legal system, locally elected ruler) but under the Russian tsar until 1709 (55 years); diminished autonomy until 1764 (55 years); integrated part of Russian Empire until 1917 (153 years); Ukrainian SSR 1918- 1991 (73 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The "Right Bank" - everything west of the river Dnipro, including half of Kiev province: part of Lithuania and Poland 1362-1793 (429 years); integrated part of Russia until 1917 (124 years); Ukrainian SSR 1919-1991 (72 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    Volynia - same as "Right Bank" but unlike the rest of the Rght Bank was part of Poland from 1919-1939, missing the first 20 years of Soviet rule.

    Galicia - part of Poland 1349-1772 (423 years); part of Austria 1772-1918 (146 years); part of Poland 1919-1939 (20 years), part of Ukrainian SSR 1939-1991 (52 years); independent Ukraine 1991-present (25 years).

    The EU is first flooding western Europe with Moslems. Anyone who thinks that Eastern European nations in the EU and NATO will avoid that fate is hopelessly naive.

    Russia has ruled large numbers of Moslems because Russia had to conquer to prevent their endless wars against Christian peoples in the region. That is a far different thing than largely atheist Western Liberals importing Moslems from the Middle East and Africa by the millions. Russians do not have a bleeding heart history toward Moslems, but Western Liberals do. The vast majority of Liberal Jews in the US are now all gaga for Moslem immigration, and most Liberals back the idea of Affirmative Action preferences for Moslems.

    That ought to scare the Hell out of everybody in Eastern Europe part of the EU or wanting to be.

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  96. @The Alarmist
    You are being sarcastic, right? There were plenty of non-German Nazis, and they turned out to be the most savage troops because they had plenty to lose.

    Gay S&M violence tied to a viable political party is attractive in many lands.

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  97. […] The Donbass Is Breaking Away from an Agonized Ukraine […]

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  98. @Wizard of Oz
    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue "we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations". Nor would he have said "three votes or we march on München" so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????

    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue “we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations”.

    But Stalin recognized every one of the soviets as a distinct nation. It was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that ruled the lot of them. That is why the SU disintegrated in 1991. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was banned throughout the
    Soviet Union on August 29, 1991.

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    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    Actually it was at Lenin's insistence that the Soviet Union be established as a federation of formally equal nations. That's why Putin said Lenin had place a time bomb beneath the Soviet Union.
  99. @CanSpeccy

    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue “we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations”.
     
    But Stalin recognized every one of the soviets as a distinct nation. It was the Communist Party of the Soviet Union that ruled the lot of them. That is why the SU disintegrated in 1991. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union was banned throughout the
    Soviet Union on August 29, 1991.

    Actually it was at Lenin’s insistence that the Soviet Union be established as a federation of formally equal nations. That’s why Putin said Lenin had place a time bomb beneath the Soviet Union.

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  100. Sep 9, 2016 US-funded Ukrainian army is terrorizing civilians

    Russell Bentley is a former US marine, that now fights for the Donbass, Eastern Ukraine, against the US-funded Ukrainian army.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    A career criminal from America fighting for Donbas?

    https://twitter.com/robpulsenews/status/618062852558069760

    What a perfect match! Reminds me of Motorola, who was heroically engaged in criminal activity in Russia prior to coming to Ukraine to kill Ukrainian troops.

    Muslim criminals from Europe come to Syria or Iraq, those with Christian background come to Donbas.

  101. @AP

    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe.
     
    Russia was about 11% Muslim according to official data in 2010, about the same as France. With the many unofficial migrant laborers the Russian number is certainly a few % higher. Only 4% of Russians are Tatars.

    Non-Tatar Muslims plus migrant laborers from Central Asia may be a higher % of people in Russia than Muslims in most European countries.

    The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point.
     
    Than Carpathian villagers? Perhaps. On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan, if by civilized you mean educated, livable, clean, well-organized, and safe. The same is probably true of Ivano-Frankivsk, compared to Russian cities of its size.

    Here is Lviv in 2014

    Here is Tver in 2014

    Lviv manages to do this in spite of being much poorer. A sign of a higher level of civilization.

    You need to check the names of the outstanding scientists and mathematicians that grew up and were educated in the Soviet Union/Russian federation. Also, please do no be shy in divulging a fact that the USSR was the first affirmative-action country.

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  102. @AP

    Except there is one hell of a difference between Volga tatars and the ghetto populations of Western Europe.
     
    Russia was about 11% Muslim according to official data in 2010, about the same as France. With the many unofficial migrant laborers the Russian number is certainly a few % higher. Only 4% of Russians are Tatars.

    Non-Tatar Muslims plus migrant laborers from Central Asia may be a higher % of people in Russia than Muslims in most European countries.

    The tatars have been thoroughly assimilated over the centuries of Russian rule , they are probably more civilized that Ukrainians at this point.
     
    Than Carpathian villagers? Perhaps. On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan, if by civilized you mean educated, livable, clean, well-organized, and safe. The same is probably true of Ivano-Frankivsk, compared to Russian cities of its size.

    Here is Lviv in 2014

    Here is Tver in 2014

    Lviv manages to do this in spite of being much poorer. A sign of a higher level of civilization.

    On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan,

    I am not sure what you mean by being civilized: Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov. Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it, – is that your idea of civilization?

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic, worse than Moldova, worse even than the Central Asia. They really have nothing to be proud of.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov
     
    You obviously haven't been there. But I linked to a Russian blogger who visited and posted what he saw, comparing it with a smaller Russian city. Your eyes won't deceive you.

    Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it,
     
    There is almost no litter on the city's streets, it's notable for a post-Soviet city.

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic
     
    It's what happens when the country's elite are from the east. The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile...
  103. @Joe Wong
    http://forum.codoh.com and http://codoh.com are created by the unrepentant war criminal Japanese who wants to create a precedent to legitimize their denying their barbaric, beastly, inhuman and evil war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace they committed before 1945.

    Dude, just stop it already.

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    • Replies: @Nathan Cook
    Yes, let us treat codoh newspaper 6 million meme dude with more respect, by all means.
  104. @EugeneGur

    On the other hand, Lviv is more civilized than most ethnic Russian cities, as well as Kazan,
     
    I am not sure what you mean by being civilized: Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov. Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it, - is that your idea of civilization?

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic, worse than Moldova, worse even than the Central Asia. They really have nothing to be proud of.

    Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov

    You obviously haven’t been there. But I linked to a Russian blogger who visited and posted what he saw, comparing it with a smaller Russian city. Your eyes won’t deceive you.

    Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it,

    There is almost no litter on the city’s streets, it’s notable for a post-Soviet city.

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic

    It’s what happens when the country’s elite are from the east. The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…

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    • Replies: @EugeneGur

    You obviously haven’t been there.
     
    Yes, I have. I also have relatives there.

    There is almost no litter on the city’s streets, it’s notable for a post-Soviet city.
     
    This is Lvov - no litter on the streets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtsrvnUO_y8
    They've had trouble with garbage disposal for some time now. This is BTW a Ukrainian channel. You, most likely, confused Lvov with Donetsk or Lugansk - these cities are indeed remarkably clean.

    The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…
     
    Sure thing. Only the West of Ukraine was heavily subsidized by the east all 25 years of independence. And half of the population of the Western Ukraine works in Russia as Gastarbeiters. That is, probably, because they live so well.
  105. @Agent76
    Sep 9, 2016 US-funded Ukrainian army is terrorizing civilians

    Russell Bentley is a former US marine, that now fights for the Donbass, Eastern Ukraine, against the US-funded Ukrainian army.

    https://youtu.be/92KfmGY12yQ

    A career criminal from America fighting for Donbas?

    What a perfect match! Reminds me of Motorola, who was heroically engaged in criminal activity in Russia prior to coming to Ukraine to kill Ukrainian troops.

    Muslim criminals from Europe come to Syria or Iraq, those with Christian background come to Donbas.

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    • Replies: @Agent76
    Then this should not shock you if you are really informed. Mar 18, 2014 US support of violent neo-Nazis in Ukraine: Video Compilation

    Shocking and insightful videos detailing the neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, ultra-nationalist movement in Ukraine. The videos examine the ongoing US support of these groups, including the Svoboda party and Right Sector.

    https://youtu.be/8-RyOaFwcEw
  106. @AP

    Lvov certainly used to be a nice city but there is nothing particularly civilized about Lvov
     
    You obviously haven't been there. But I linked to a Russian blogger who visited and posted what he saw, comparing it with a smaller Russian city. Your eyes won't deceive you.

    Today Lvov is literally buried under its own garbage, being unable to dispose of it,
     
    There is almost no litter on the city's streets, it's notable for a post-Soviet city.

    The Ukrainian, having received more than anybody else, and that includes Russia, at the breakup of the Soviet Union, did worse than any former Soviet republic
     
    It's what happens when the country's elite are from the east. The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile...

    You obviously haven’t been there.

    Yes, I have. I also have relatives there.

    There is almost no litter on the city’s streets, it’s notable for a post-Soviet city.

    This is Lvov – no litter on the streets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtsrvnUO_y8
    They’ve had trouble with garbage disposal for some time now. This is BTW a Ukrainian channel. You, most likely, confused Lvov with Donetsk or Lugansk – these cities are indeed remarkably clean.

    The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…

    Sure thing. Only the West of Ukraine was heavily subsidized by the east all 25 years of independence. And half of the population of the Western Ukraine works in Russia as Gastarbeiters. That is, probably, because they live so well.

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    • Replies: @AP

    You obviously haven’t been there.

    Yes, I have. I also have relatives there.
     
    So you are dishonest. Good to know.

    This is Lvov – no litter on the streets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtsrvnUO_y8
    They’ve had trouble with garbage disposal for some time now.
     
    There were problems with the landfill and garbage disposal. This is not the same thing as trash on the sidewalks, parks, beside ponds, etc. They've arranged to truck it elsewhere and are going to be building a disposal plant outside the city.

    The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…

    Sure thing. Only the West of Ukraine was heavily subsidized by the east all 25 years of independence.
     
    So now that the East has left Ukraine (Donbas) or entered economic crises, the West of Ukraine must be doing horribly without such "subsidies." Oops:

    http://bunews.com.ua/economy/item/lviv-becomes-ukraines-real-estate-boomtown#.WL2MLD2u5PY.facebook

    And half of the population of the Western Ukraine works in Russia as Gastarbeiters.
     
    No, the ones that leave go to Poland mostly. Most of the migrants are from rural areas outside the cities or from western Ukrainian oblasts other than Lviv. Lviv has been attracting residents.
  107. @EugeneGur

    You obviously haven’t been there.
     
    Yes, I have. I also have relatives there.

    There is almost no litter on the city’s streets, it’s notable for a post-Soviet city.
     
    This is Lvov - no litter on the streets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtsrvnUO_y8
    They've had trouble with garbage disposal for some time now. This is BTW a Ukrainian channel. You, most likely, confused Lvov with Donetsk or Lugansk - these cities are indeed remarkably clean.

    The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…
     
    Sure thing. Only the West of Ukraine was heavily subsidized by the east all 25 years of independence. And half of the population of the Western Ukraine works in Russia as Gastarbeiters. That is, probably, because they live so well.

    You obviously haven’t been there.

    Yes, I have. I also have relatives there.

    So you are dishonest. Good to know.

    This is Lvov – no litter on the streets? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtsrvnUO_y8
    They’ve had trouble with garbage disposal for some time now.

    There were problems with the landfill and garbage disposal. This is not the same thing as trash on the sidewalks, parks, beside ponds, etc. They’ve arranged to truck it elsewhere and are going to be building a disposal plant outside the city.

    The Lviv region has done quite well, meanwhile…

    Sure thing. Only the West of Ukraine was heavily subsidized by the east all 25 years of independence.

    So now that the East has left Ukraine (Donbas) or entered economic crises, the West of Ukraine must be doing horribly without such “subsidies.” Oops:

    http://bunews.com.ua/economy/item/lviv-becomes-ukraines-real-estate-boomtown#.WL2MLD2u5PY.facebook

    And half of the population of the Western Ukraine works in Russia as Gastarbeiters.

    No, the ones that leave go to Poland mostly. Most of the migrants are from rural areas outside the cities or from western Ukrainian oblasts other than Lviv. Lviv has been attracting residents.

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  108. I had a girlfriend from Lvov once, long time ago; she was okay, very homey. Neat, clean, and orderly. Recently a friends from Zakarpatia complained that in Galicia they refuse you a sip of water from the well. Superior European Kultur.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Galicians sometimes view people form Zakarpatia as uneducated and backwards. Not in a sneering, condescending way as Russian nationalists view Ukrainians, but rather "poor people, they were part of Hungary while we were part of Austria." Zakarpatians have a weaker sense of nationalism and this is seen as a symptom of poorer education. But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    An interesting academic article, comparing the two peoples and the role of mass literacy in the development of nationalist ideology :

    https://keithdarden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/darden-natural-experiment.pdf
  109. I don’t know, Ukraine is the largest country in Europe. Not sure what cosmically created edict says it should be. The Czechs and the Slovaks worked it all out…

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  110. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Oh, I see what’s going on here. American and Russian nationalists – good. Ukrainian and other small white nation nationalists – bad!

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  111. @annamaria
    The ongoing tragedy of Ukraine: http://thesaker.is/poroshenko-doesnt-want-another-maidan-sitrep/
    The main points of the State Dept. plan for Ukraine was a civil war near the Russian borders and Ukraine's incorporation into NATO. For now, Ukraine at large is descending into a life of deprivation and danger, with no conditions present for a decent, workable solution.

    Saker: "... per Rostislav Ishchenko’s opinion, Poroshenko believes in himself being chosen by God, and will never agree to step down voluntarily, despite of the all-Ukrainian consensus that he should. His opponents cannot create a consolidated Nazi regime due to ongoing infighting. The hate towards Poroshenko is what unites the groups of the Right Sector, Timoshenko and Turchynov, Galician “Svoboda” and “Samopomich,” Biletsky’s “Azov,” Kolomoisky and Tyahnybok, SBU, the Police, the National Guards, and the military. When he is gone, all these political parties and fractions, armed formations, foreign troops and gangs will start fighting with each other for power and something to steal."
    The mess that Nuland-Kagan made...

    “The main points of the State Dept. plan for Ukraine was a civil war near the Russian borders and Ukraine’s incorporation into NATO.” Leaked to the public domain when, exactly? Or is this the plan Russian nationalists wish the US State Department had to make the Nationalists feel important?

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    And what is your explanation to the Nuland-Kagan revolution? - Democracy on the march, a la Libya? Designed and implemented by whom - by the well-known ziocons (like a Cheney pupil from the Kagans' clan of warmongers). Oops!

    As for your suggestion that Russians are dreaming of the US intervention, what kind a person could be so totally ignorant about the civilian casualties that the USSR had suffered during the WWII and about the consequent aversion of the Russians towards a war? There is not a family among the former Soviets that escaped the horrors of the WWII war. Only the armchair generals of neocon persuasion and the most hardened Russophobes could confabulate your kind of a "plan of Russian nationalists." The Ukrainian crisis has generated an intense stress among general population of RF. The DC "activists" are not able to comprehend this stress because the US has not experienced a foreign invasions for centuries, whereas the Russophobes, particularly the admirers of Bandera and such, cannot be happier about the stress.

    Look what Ukraine has been going on through right now. Do you really believe that the State Dept. has started the Nuland-Kagan revolution in order to lift Ukraine to prosperity? Does not Ukraine need $10-$15 million per/day to a greater degree than Israel? Then where is the money? Where is a Marshall plan for Ukraine? - Nothing. There is zero compassion for the ordinary Ukrainians from the State Dept. The sooner Ukrainians realize that their country was used as a patsy against RF, the speedier will be recovery from the neo-Nazi/oligarchic nightmare that Ukraine suffers right now. If Russia was able to recover from the Harvard (imbecile) Boys and from the wholesale looting under the supervision of State Dept., Ukraine could do that as well. But the road to recovery will be difficult and long.

  112. @Jake
    My interest in this situation is primarily in regard to the US playing role of global bully right into World War 3. The most vociferous anti-Russians in the US are that crazy. I am also interested in the insanity of any of nationality or ethnicity wanting to be under the thumb of the freaks in the EU, who are like the American leaders minus common sense and with an extra dose of desire for cultural suicide.

    But the history is interesting. What I would like to know are answers to the following questions.

    1) How many years total - in all history - has the Ukraine been an independent country? How many of those years include all what is claimed by 'Ukrainian nationalists,' and that includes the Crimea?

    2) How many years total has Poland ruled at least half of the Ukraine? How many years has Poland ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    3. How many years total has Russia ruled at least 50% of the Ukraine? How many years has Russia ruled at least 75% of the Ukraine?

    The EU’s problems are those of runaway success. Too much, too soon, partly due to UK Tory insistence on enlargement rather than deepening. Peace and democratic stability bought to the Med (see Turkey for last remaining non EU autocracy), the East (see Russia and Ukraine for non EU post communism) without discussing France and Germany.

    The Eurozone, a mere 10 years old, survived a once in generation raw materials spike (the real economy driver of the bank collapse) without losing a member. Now the oil price is down the whole EU is starting a 15-20 year boom. Gap closing time on the US again.

    Environmentally, the EU is way ahead of the US which has done nothing serious since Nixon.

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  113. @Mao Cheng Ji
    I had a girlfriend from Lvov once, long time ago; she was okay, very homey. Neat, clean, and orderly. Recently a friends from Zakarpatia complained that in Galicia they refuse you a sip of water from the well. Superior European Kultur.

    Galicians sometimes view people form Zakarpatia as uneducated and backwards. Not in a sneering, condescending way as Russian nationalists view Ukrainians, but rather “poor people, they were part of Hungary while we were part of Austria.” Zakarpatians have a weaker sense of nationalism and this is seen as a symptom of poorer education. But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    An interesting academic article, comparing the two peoples and the role of mass literacy in the development of nationalist ideology :

    https://keithdarden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/darden-natural-experiment.pdf

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.
     
    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony. Ukrainians, Magyars, Hutsuls, Romanians, Slovaks, Russians, Germans. A place where, for example, Italians who came over 100 years ago to build a railroad still live in an Italian village and speak Italian. You won't find any Galitchina-style ridiculous combination of ethnic snobbery and martyr complex (that you so amply demonstrate here, incidentally) whatsoever. Well, as far as I can tell, anyway.
  114. @Wizard of Oz
    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue "we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations". Nor would he have said "three votes or we march on München" so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????

    … so what was the argument used in that debate?

    Um, how about:
    “We get 3 votes to counterbalance your preponderance of votes in the GA, or you and your UN can go hang.”

    You will note that their placement on the linked list suggests the true status of their “membership”:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Conference_on_International_Organization#Participant_countries

    “The participation of Belarus and Ukraine at the conference was given to Stalin by Churchill and Roosevelt’s concession…. For this purpose, modifications were made to the constitutions of the two republics in question, so that Belarus and Ukraine’s international legal subjects were limited, while they were still part of the Soviet Union.”

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  115. @Felix Keverich
    Stalin and his associates were committed communists. From their perspective, there was no such thing as a nation. All people were considered the same and equal, and the goal was to bring them all together in a global Soviet superstate.

    You know that you're standing on shaky ground, when you must harken back to communist regime as a source of legitimacy for Ukraine, its present borders, territorial claims to Crimea etc.

    Nor would he have said “three votes or we march on München” so what was the argument used in that debate?
     
    You meant it to be sarcastic, I think the fact that Soviet army was occupying central Europe did give him some leverage.

    Felix, the communist borders that is exactly the point. The same as with US “lefties” now, the minorities in the communist countries almost always had greater rights than the majority. To keep them satisfied the communist regime had to cuddle them and keep giving them presents, one of which was Crimea, but there were many, many other.

    Now, when the West took over the management of the former communist block countries, the West insisted on communist drawn borders because they were beneficial to their new clients. Nothing better than giving other people’s lands and property as a welcoming gift. However, there is at least one example where even the communist drawn borders were not good enough and this is the example of Serbian Kosovo. After insisting on desolving Yugoslavia along communist drawn borders (drawn by a Croatian communist dictator Tito), the West turned around and said that this rule on borders applies to everyone except Serbia. Then it bombed Serbia to separate Kosovo, that is 15% of mineral richest part of Serbia and give it to Albania. Now Kosovo is not a fully internationally recognised state but it has no border with Albania. It has been annexed to Albania for all intents and purposes. A similar fate now awaits Macedonia, which the loud and aggressive Albanian minority want also to annex to Albania. The US and EU support Albanians and hope, for now, that this annexation would happen politically rather than militarily.

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  116. @AP
    A career criminal from America fighting for Donbas?

    https://twitter.com/robpulsenews/status/618062852558069760

    What a perfect match! Reminds me of Motorola, who was heroically engaged in criminal activity in Russia prior to coming to Ukraine to kill Ukrainian troops.

    Muslim criminals from Europe come to Syria or Iraq, those with Christian background come to Donbas.

    Then this should not shock you if you are really informed. Mar 18, 2014 US support of violent neo-Nazis in Ukraine: Video Compilation

    Shocking and insightful videos detailing the neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, ultra-nationalist movement in Ukraine. The videos examine the ongoing US support of these groups, including the Svoboda party and Right Sector.

    https://youtu.be/8-RyOaFwcEw

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    All "Nazis" are equal, but some "Nazis" are more equal than others.
  117. @Wizard of Oz
    You would have to agree that Stalin is unlikely to have encouraged Molotov to argue "we want more votes so please accept that we must be allowed to count two of our Soviet Socialist republics as nations". Nor would he have said "three votes or we march on München" so what was the argument used in that debate? Not one compatible with suggesting that Ukrainians are just a lot of provincials who should really be speaking proper Russian and not feeling that they are searate from Russia????

    Happily commenters have been able to make me better informed without abusing me and failing to notice that I carefully said “debating point” (actually not a bad one to throw at young Russian chauvinists who would probably be as nonplussed as a Young Republican asked to compare the roles of Colonel House and Harold Hopkins – who????) :-)

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    You carefully said "debating point" but you call the people who are explaining it to you the "chauvinists"!? Using a word which you do not understand or playing the Aussie-rules football here? Shirtfronting the team of the Russian chauvinists like that other Oz moron? And I thought that you improved, but you just became hasbara-style sleazy, a skillful provocateur.
  118. @Erebus

    ... so what was the argument used in that debate?
     
    Um, how about:
    "We get 3 votes to counterbalance your preponderance of votes in the GA, or you and your UN can go hang."

    You will note that their placement on the linked list suggests the true status of their "membership":
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Conference_on_International_Organization#Participant_countries

    "The participation of Belarus and Ukraine at the conference was given to Stalin by Churchill and Roosevelt's concession.... For this purpose, modifications were made to the constitutions of the two republics in question, so that Belarus and Ukraine's international legal subjects were limited, while they were still part of the Soviet Union."

    See #121

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Actually #123 I think and now #147 before #132 or #134....
  119. All the squabbling over linguistic, cultural, and historical details and who is the true heir of the Kievan Rus’ just shows that the US should stay out of this.

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  120. @AP

    I was specifically speaking of the area of the southern steppe (Wild Fields), which to the extent it belonged to “anyone” was Turkic slavers.
     
    Ah, okay, that makes sense. Of course Ukrainians participated in the Russian Empire at the time the wild fields were settled, so it wasn't as if this were some sort of unearned gift.

    Kiev certainly was more civilized, but I suspect you’re overstating its level of sophistication relative to Moscow. For a start, it was in a different weight category, its population being an order of magnitude lower.

    Population of Kiev in 17C – 10-15K
    Population of Moscow in 17C – 100K-200K
     
    Highly populated isn't necessarily the same thing as more civilized. For about 100 years pretty much every head of the Russian Orthodox Church was from Kiev (including this guy, the first head of the Holy Synod, a Galiian who studied in Kiev. Lomonosov came to Kiev to study, also, first significant "Russian" composer Berzovsky, etc. The Eurasianist historian Vernadsky wrote that acquiring Kiev was no less important than St. Petersburg with respect to the Russian Empire's westernization/modernization.

    Yes, “this guy” came from Galicia. As did so many others, who came into the only Orthodox state of substance then existing, because at that time the critical determinant of identity was faith. The thing about all these “guys from Galicia”, after the matter of faith, is this — they were never “Ukrainians”. The were “Ruski”, plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them. In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves “Ruski”, and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them. (That administration played interesting games, balancing off the “Ukrainians” and the Poles”). And even when Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii’s, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the “Russki” deacons out of the church by force, so ensconced was the “Russki” identity, not only amongst the majority of the peasantry, but even within the Uniate Church itself. To say that “guys from Galicia” came into the Russian empire says nothing about their “Ukrainianess”. There was no Ukrainian identity amongst the people — that was only in the making, as some Ukrainian “intellectuals” (term used most advisedly), encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and, soon enough Franz Josef himself, began to promote the notion of “Ukrainianess” with a view to separating the inhabitants of this region from Russian proclivities. SO YES — there was a large infeeding of educated from western Ukraine, and central Ukraine, into the Russian Empire — but these people came NOT AS Ukrainians, BUT AS Ruski.

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    • Replies: @AP

    The were “Ruski”, plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them.
     
    You don't have to teach me about them, I'm descended from them. Brusilov had been a guest at my great-grandfather's estate. This guy , who led a bunch of Russophiles from western Ukraine fighting for Kolchak in the Urals was a great-uncle.

    I was describing the nation, not the label/self-identity (the map is not the territory, to use Korzybski's quote in a different context). Whether this people are called Ukrainians or Little Russians or Rusyns or Rusnaks, it is irrelevant. The "Ukrainian label" happened to win, for various historical reasons, but if some other identity had won instead it would still be the same people, and this was what I was discussing. And you were wrong on numerous details:

    In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves “Ruski”, and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them.
     
    You are wrong. The Russophiles were at their peak in the 1860s and were down to perhaps 25% support among Galicians by 1900.

    Ironically the Russian Idea was originally supported by Austria, as the Ukrainian Idea was later. Originally Galicia's nobles had a pro-Polish orientation - Gente Rutheni, natione Poloni (many of the Russophiles in their youth had crossed the border and taken part in anti-Russian Polish noble insurrections), but when Russia and Austria were allies an anti-Polish, pro- Russian orientation was strongly encouraged by the Austrian officials. When Russia and Austria became rivals later in the 19th century this became unacceptable, so the Austrians shifted their support to an idea that was both anti-Polish and anti-Russian, inviting in exiles from Russian Ukraine to promote this new idea. So ironically native Galicians from ancient boyar families tended to be pro-Russian, while arriving easterners tended to be pro-Ukrainian in orientation.

    Furthermore, the Ukrainian population was anti-Polish, but not generally anti-Austrian, seeing the good "tsysar" as a liberator from the hated Poles. Rejection by the Austrian authorities actually contributed to the Russophile loss of popularity among the peasants.

    Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii’s, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the “Russki” deacons out of the church by force,
     
    Force was generally not used, it was more a matter of not promoting them within the Church and waiting for the ones within the Church to retire or die. The process was slow enough that in the beginning of his reign, Ukrainian nationalists were angry at Sheptytsky for his tolerance.

    encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and
     
    Quite the opposite. Notwithstanding the ideological anti-Polishness, Russophiles in Galicia lived off Polish support. They were the weaker party and the Poles, seeking to divide the Eastern Slavs, accordingly tried to strengthen the Russophiles. Poles renamed the Ukrainian language department at Lviv University as the Rusyn language department, for example, and gave back to Russophiles institutions that the Ukrainians had taken from them.

    Poles supported Ukrainians within the Russian Empire (Kiev, etc.) but not within Galicia.
  121. @Philip Owen
    "The main points of the State Dept. plan for Ukraine was a civil war near the Russian borders and Ukraine’s incorporation into NATO." Leaked to the public domain when, exactly? Or is this the plan Russian nationalists wish the US State Department had to make the Nationalists feel important?

    And what is your explanation to the Nuland-Kagan revolution? – Democracy on the march, a la Libya? Designed and implemented by whom – by the well-known ziocons (like a Cheney pupil from the Kagans’ clan of warmongers). Oops!

    As for your suggestion that Russians are dreaming of the US intervention, what kind a person could be so totally ignorant about the civilian casualties that the USSR had suffered during the WWII and about the consequent aversion of the Russians towards a war? There is not a family among the former Soviets that escaped the horrors of the WWII war. Only the armchair generals of neocon persuasion and the most hardened Russophobes could confabulate your kind of a “plan of Russian nationalists.” The Ukrainian crisis has generated an intense stress among general population of RF. The DC “activists” are not able to comprehend this stress because the US has not experienced a foreign invasions for centuries, whereas the Russophobes, particularly the admirers of Bandera and such, cannot be happier about the stress.

    Look what Ukraine has been going on through right now. Do you really believe that the State Dept. has started the Nuland-Kagan revolution in order to lift Ukraine to prosperity? Does not Ukraine need $10-$15 million per/day to a greater degree than Israel? Then where is the money? Where is a Marshall plan for Ukraine? – Nothing. There is zero compassion for the ordinary Ukrainians from the State Dept. The sooner Ukrainians realize that their country was used as a patsy against RF, the speedier will be recovery from the neo-Nazi/oligarchic nightmare that Ukraine suffers right now. If Russia was able to recover from the Harvard (imbecile) Boys and from the wholesale looting under the supervision of State Dept., Ukraine could do that as well. But the road to recovery will be difficult and long.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    As we have discussed before, when it came to practical actions, the best Nuland could do was suggest bringing John Kerry over to make a speech. (and give out cookies). As for 2004, read Wikileaks. The US Embassy cables are there to see.
  122. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Agent76
    Then this should not shock you if you are really informed. Mar 18, 2014 US support of violent neo-Nazis in Ukraine: Video Compilation

    Shocking and insightful videos detailing the neo-Nazi, anti-Semitic, ultra-nationalist movement in Ukraine. The videos examine the ongoing US support of these groups, including the Svoboda party and Right Sector.

    https://youtu.be/8-RyOaFwcEw

    All “Nazis” are equal, but some “Nazis” are more equal than others.

    Read More
  123. @GB
    Yes, "this guy" came from Galicia. As did so many others, who came into the only Orthodox state of substance then existing, because at that time the critical determinant of identity was faith. The thing about all these "guys from Galicia", after the matter of faith, is this -- they were never "Ukrainians". The were "Ruski", plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them. In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves "Ruski", and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them. (That administration played interesting games, balancing off the "Ukrainians" and the Poles"). And even when Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii's, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the "Russki" deacons out of the church by force, so ensconced was the "Russki" identity, not only amongst the majority of the peasantry, but even within the Uniate Church itself. To say that "guys from Galicia" came into the Russian empire says nothing about their "Ukrainianess". There was no Ukrainian identity amongst the people -- that was only in the making, as some Ukrainian "intellectuals" (term used most advisedly), encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and, soon enough Franz Josef himself, began to promote the notion of "Ukrainianess" with a view to separating the inhabitants of this region from Russian proclivities. SO YES -- there was a large infeeding of educated from western Ukraine, and central Ukraine, into the Russian Empire -- but these people came NOT AS Ukrainians, BUT AS Ruski.

    The were “Ruski”, plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them.

    You don’t have to teach me about them, I’m descended from them. Brusilov had been a guest at my great-grandfather’s estate. This guy , who led a bunch of Russophiles from western Ukraine fighting for Kolchak in the Urals was a great-uncle.

    I was describing the nation, not the label/self-identity (the map is not the territory, to use Korzybski’s quote in a different context). Whether this people are called Ukrainians or Little Russians or Rusyns or Rusnaks, it is irrelevant. The “Ukrainian label” happened to win, for various historical reasons, but if some other identity had won instead it would still be the same people, and this was what I was discussing. And you were wrong on numerous details:

    In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves “Ruski”, and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them.

    You are wrong. The Russophiles were at their peak in the 1860s and were down to perhaps 25% support among Galicians by 1900.

    Ironically the Russian Idea was originally supported by Austria, as the Ukrainian Idea was later. Originally Galicia’s nobles had a pro-Polish orientation – Gente Rutheni, natione Poloni (many of the Russophiles in their youth had crossed the border and taken part in anti-Russian Polish noble insurrections), but when Russia and Austria were allies an anti-Polish, pro- Russian orientation was strongly encouraged by the Austrian officials. When Russia and Austria became rivals later in the 19th century this became unacceptable, so the Austrians shifted their support to an idea that was both anti-Polish and anti-Russian, inviting in exiles from Russian Ukraine to promote this new idea. So ironically native Galicians from ancient boyar families tended to be pro-Russian, while arriving easterners tended to be pro-Ukrainian in orientation.

    Furthermore, the Ukrainian population was anti-Polish, but not generally anti-Austrian, seeing the good “tsysar” as a liberator from the hated Poles. Rejection by the Austrian authorities actually contributed to the Russophile loss of popularity among the peasants.

    Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii’s, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the “Russki” deacons out of the church by force,

    Force was generally not used, it was more a matter of not promoting them within the Church and waiting for the ones within the Church to retire or die. The process was slow enough that in the beginning of his reign, Ukrainian nationalists were angry at Sheptytsky for his tolerance.

    encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and

    Quite the opposite. Notwithstanding the ideological anti-Polishness, Russophiles in Galicia lived off Polish support. They were the weaker party and the Poles, seeking to divide the Eastern Slavs, accordingly tried to strengthen the Russophiles. Poles renamed the Ukrainian language department at Lviv University as the Rusyn language department, for example, and gave back to Russophiles institutions that the Ukrainians had taken from them.

    Poles supported Ukrainians within the Russian Empire (Kiev, etc.) but not within Galicia.

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    • Replies: @GB
    AP, it would be a pleasure to meet with you. We could have some interesting discussions. But for now, I would like to make but some several points here.

    To say you are descended of these people, to speak about your grandfather (though I am impressed about his meeting with Bruslov!), is really not a great convincer of anything, and gives you no extra authority when it comes to the weight of your argument. My father was a Kuban Cossack, I am descended of Zaphorians who moved to Kuban in 1790, one of the luminaries of Kuban Cossack Ukrainianists, Wasyl Ivanis, was a family member, etc. So what? That kind of past inheritance really means little for either you or me when it comes to the authority which we bring to a subject -- other than that we are more interested in our pasts, and probably better read on them. And perhaps more bigotted because of this. We have to be careful.

    You make very many points about the Rus/ki population of Galicia, about the Polish-Ukrainian-Austrian nexus and interplay. Yes, it was complex, and it was in constanbt flux, shaped by developments both local and international. And with some of your points I agree, with some I don't. And I don't mean to bore you and others now with rejoinders and rebuttals on a great number of them, other than this one retort. The Russophile "dispositions" is debated, and we can argue until we're both spent on just how strong it was. No one knows for a certainty but the fact remains that it was strong, and I can cite different percentages from contemporaries and other authorites which give a far higher russkii/rusyn disposition than your 25%.

    But I fear you may have missed my whole intent. Perhaps I was not clear. What I really want to get across is this. The western Ukrainians of the pre-twentieth century were not "Ukrainians" as we know this concept now. This was pre-Mikhnovsky (who had virtually no following whatsoever); this was pre-RUP; this was pre-1917 and the Rada experience (where the strangest of things happened, with, for example, the Ukrainian Galician Army eventually joining forces with the Red Army); this was pre-OUN and Bandera and WWII and the re-shaping of Galician Ukrainian identity. The "Ukrainianess" of today, shaped and evolved through all the above experiences and more, (and concomitantly all which shaped those who rule Ukraine today), is very different from those who came into the Russia Empire from the western Ukrainian regions in the 18th to 19th century, and in fact from the time of Ivan the Awe-Inspiring (rather than the "Teribble", as you would be aware).

    People seem to forget historical time, causation and evolution, and for propaganda purposes retroject back into the past the values to which they cleave today. Contrary to what Hrushevsky and his acolytes believe (that Ukrainians were fully formed and self-conscious of their distinct Ukrainianness from the 4th century on, ever struggling against all sorts of oppressors throughout historical time), anyone who has a sense of history will recognize this as absurd. Ukrainians pre-twentieth century were not in the least what many of them are today. (Neither were the Russians, or any other peoples, people for that matter).

    What we do know is that, throughout the centuries preceding the twentieth, the residual inhabitants of the western lands, before conquest by the Lithuanians and subsequent subjection to the Poles and later Austrians, always called themselves, "self-defined" themselves, as "ruski" or "rusyn", not "Ukrainians". And they held on to their Orthodox faith (not all, of course, hence the Uniates). And their self-identification and values were of a different order than that which is posited today. And their feelings about Russia were very different from what is expressed about Russia today by the luminaries of Ukrainian self-awareness. And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people -- Poles, Austrians, Germans, and "Ukrainian" intellectuals who bought into this movement -- to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia. Hence even the drive to erase the "R" word out their identity -- "ruski", "russki", "rusyn", just too strong an etymologial connection with "rus". Thus, even "Borderlanders" worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.

    So, yes, "Ukrainians" always came into the Russian Empire. They were generally welcomed, with few exceptions. They brought learning to the more distant northen lands from a much more dynamic south. They in fact twice "Ukrainianized" the Russian language -- following the Time of Troubles and with Peter the Great. (Odd, Russians don't seem to mind this). But with this rider kept in mind -- these peole were not (anachronistically) "UKRAINIANS"; they were "RUSKI", bringing with them a value set which had nothing whatever at all to do with today's "Ukrainians".
  124. @Wizard of Oz
    Happily commenters have been able to make me better informed without abusing me and failing to notice that I carefully said "debating point" (actually not a bad one to throw at young Russian chauvinists who would probably be as nonplussed as a Young Republican asked to compare the roles of Colonel House and Harold Hopkins - who????) :-)

    You carefully said “debating point” but you call the people who are explaining it to you the “chauvinists”!? Using a word which you do not understand or playing the Aussie-rules football here? Shirtfronting the team of the Russian chauvinists like that other Oz moron? And I thought that you improved, but you just became hasbara-style sleazy, a skillful provocateur.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Well I don't think you are stupid in the sense of lacking even modest cognitive ability. But the question arises why you should allow yourself to be seen as so obviously careless. Perhaps that is at least as often the form stupidity takes if someone is blind or arrogant enough to suppose that others won't see it. Then again malice could explain it: free wheeling malice or maybe for some reason I haven't grasped focused on this anonymous Australian.

    Can you not see how careless, at best, it makes you look that you jump in to a conversation others were having on the side to make abusive and, above all, obviously foolish, comments directed at me? Anyone can see that I was actually complimenting people for their adding relevant information prompted by my "debating point" not referring to them as "Russian chauvinists", and on their civility in doing so, in contrast to your gratuitous incivility.

    Anyone not under the influence of mind altering substances or pathological malice, or seized by distressing sense of inadequacy, would read my reference to " young [sic, NB] Russian chauvinists" as emphasising my goodwill to the other commenters by making an essentially amiable joke about young enthusiasts who have still much to learn - clearly in contrast to the helpful commenters!
  125. […] Im Original: The Donbass Is Breaking Away from an Agonized Ukraine […]

    Read More
  126. I don’t think you are stupid in the sense of lacking cognitive anility but it is surely stupid to be as careless as you have just shown yourself to be. Maybe free floating, or even I suppose focused (on this anonymous Australian) malice could explain the nonsense you have written. Those who usefully added relevsnt information to my brief noting of the UN membership of Ukraine and Byrlorussia were addressed and referred to as commenters who deserved compliments for their civility as well as providion of information., not as Russian chauvinists and your inability to understand immediately how I used the expression “Russian chauvinists” should give you pause. “How could be so careless?” would be the kindest question you might lash yourself with. Could you not see that I was just emphasising the goodwill in my response by making an amiable joke about young enthusiasts who still have a lot to learn?

    Read More
  127. @AP
    Galicians sometimes view people form Zakarpatia as uneducated and backwards. Not in a sneering, condescending way as Russian nationalists view Ukrainians, but rather "poor people, they were part of Hungary while we were part of Austria." Zakarpatians have a weaker sense of nationalism and this is seen as a symptom of poorer education. But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    An interesting academic article, comparing the two peoples and the role of mass literacy in the development of nationalist ideology :

    https://keithdarden.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/darden-natural-experiment.pdf

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony. Ukrainians, Magyars, Hutsuls, Romanians, Slovaks, Russians, Germans. A place where, for example, Italians who came over 100 years ago to build a railroad still live in an Italian village and speak Italian. You won’t find any Galitchina-style ridiculous combination of ethnic snobbery and martyr complex (that you so amply demonstrate here, incidentally) whatsoever. Well, as far as I can tell, anyway.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony.
     
    1. I was speaking of the East Slavic peoples of Zakapatia vs. Galicians. The former are like poorer versions of the latter, the towns like poorer versions of Galician ones.

    2. You are right about the significant Hungarian and Romanian minorities in Zakarpatiya, making this province unique. Galicia has many Hutsuls also though (some of their most important towns are on the Galician side of the Carpathians). Otherwise you are just discussing minute details, like the Italian village.

    Demographics from 2001 census:

    Zakarpattiya oblast:

    Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns): 1,010,100 80.5%
    Hungarians: 151,500 12.1%
    Romanians: 32,100 2.6%
    Russians 31,000 2.5%
    Roma 14,000 1.1% (this number has been increasing)
    Slovaks 5,600 0.5%
    Germans 3,500 .3%
    Belarussians 1,500 .12%
    Jews 565 .05%

    Hungarians are basically concentrated along the southwestern border. Italians aren't listed but there must be fewer than 500 of them.

    Lviv oblast:

    Ukrainians 2,471,033 94.82%
    Russians 92,565 3.55 %
    Poles 18,948 .73 %
    Belarussians 5,437 .21 %
    Jews 2,212 .08 %
    Armenians 1 ,139 .04 %
    Moldovans 781 .03 %
    Roma 769 .03 %
    Tatars 680 .03 %
    Germans 648 .02 %

    Recently a couple thousand Crimean Tatars have settled in Lviv.

    Take away the Hungarians, Romanians and gypsies and the two provinces are similar.

    ethnic snobbery and martyr complex
     
    Projection, given your and other Russian nationalist comments about Ukrainians, Donbas, etc.
  128. @Kiza
    You carefully said "debating point" but you call the people who are explaining it to you the "chauvinists"!? Using a word which you do not understand or playing the Aussie-rules football here? Shirtfronting the team of the Russian chauvinists like that other Oz moron? And I thought that you improved, but you just became hasbara-style sleazy, a skillful provocateur.

    Well I don’t think you are stupid in the sense of lacking even modest cognitive ability. But the question arises why you should allow yourself to be seen as so obviously careless. Perhaps that is at least as often the form stupidity takes if someone is blind or arrogant enough to suppose that others won’t see it. Then again malice could explain it: free wheeling malice or maybe for some reason I haven’t grasped focused on this anonymous Australian.

    Can you not see how careless, at best, it makes you look that you jump in to a conversation others were having on the side to make abusive and, above all, obviously foolish, comments directed at me? Anyone can see that I was actually complimenting people for their adding relevant information prompted by my “debating point” not referring to them as “Russian chauvinists”, and on their civility in doing so, in contrast to your gratuitous incivility.

    Anyone not under the influence of mind altering substances or pathological malice, or seized by distressing sense of inadequacy, would read my reference to ” young [sic, NB] Russian chauvinists” as emphasising my goodwill to the other commenters by making an essentially amiable joke about young enthusiasts who have still much to learn – clearly in contrast to the helpful commenters!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza

    Oxford Online Dictionary
    chauvinist
    NOUN
    1 A person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism.
    Example sentences
    1.1 A person displaying excessive or prejudiced support for their own cause, group, or sex.
    ‘we don't want to lay ourselves open to charges that we're chauvinists’
    ‘a hard-drinking male chauvinist’
     
    I would rather be your enemy than be your friend called "chauvinists" by you. You do not just pick up a deliberately insulting phrase put out here by the Ukrainian/Galician nut-case commenters and turn it into buddy humor. But, anyway, I am not your father to be teaching you manners. Not continuing this discussion on.
    , @voicum
    We are sorry ,,almighty" Obi Wan Kenobi , that we have misunderstood your comments and took them for crap , what is what they are , by the way!
  129. @Mao Cheng Ji

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.
     
    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony. Ukrainians, Magyars, Hutsuls, Romanians, Slovaks, Russians, Germans. A place where, for example, Italians who came over 100 years ago to build a railroad still live in an Italian village and speak Italian. You won't find any Galitchina-style ridiculous combination of ethnic snobbery and martyr complex (that you so amply demonstrate here, incidentally) whatsoever. Well, as far as I can tell, anyway.

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony.

    1. I was speaking of the East Slavic peoples of Zakapatia vs. Galicians. The former are like poorer versions of the latter, the towns like poorer versions of Galician ones.

    2. You are right about the significant Hungarian and Romanian minorities in Zakarpatiya, making this province unique. Galicia has many Hutsuls also though (some of their most important towns are on the Galician side of the Carpathians). Otherwise you are just discussing minute details, like the Italian village.

    Demographics from 2001 census:

    [MORE]

    Zakarpattiya oblast:

    Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns): 1,010,100 80.5%
    Hungarians: 151,500 12.1%
    Romanians: 32,100 2.6%
    Russians 31,000 2.5%
    Roma 14,000 1.1% (this number has been increasing)
    Slovaks 5,600 0.5%
    Germans 3,500 .3%
    Belarussians 1,500 .12%
    Jews 565 .05%

    Hungarians are basically concentrated along the southwestern border. Italians aren’t listed but there must be fewer than 500 of them.

    Lviv oblast:

    Ukrainians 2,471,033 94.82%
    Russians 92,565 3.55 %
    Poles 18,948 .73 %
    Belarussians 5,437 .21 %
    Jews 2,212 .08 %
    Armenians 1 ,139 .04 %
    Moldovans 781 .03 %
    Roma 769 .03 %
    Tatars 680 .03 %
    Germans 648 .02 %

    Recently a couple thousand Crimean Tatars have settled in Lviv.

    Take away the Hungarians, Romanians and gypsies and the two provinces are similar.

    ethnic snobbery and martyr complex

    Projection, given your and other Russian nationalist comments about Ukrainians, Donbas, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    Demographics from 2001 census
     
    I don't believe their census. Most of the population in the Ivano-Frankovsk region are Hutsuls, but their census says they are all Ukrainians. It's bullshit.

    given your and other Russian nationalist comments
     
    I don't believe I made any nationalist comments. I have no problem with anyone, anywhere. I get along. But, like I said in another thread, the country formerly known as 'Ukraine' is not, in my opinion, feasible anymore, and they simply need to separate into 2 (or more) parts, each going its own merry way.

    Besides (on a lighter note), many years ago molfar Nechay predicted just that, and I hear the guy was never wrong...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXXIOcTkDAE

  130. @AP

    The were “Ruski”, plain and simple, or Rutheni, as the Austrians came to call them.
     
    You don't have to teach me about them, I'm descended from them. Brusilov had been a guest at my great-grandfather's estate. This guy , who led a bunch of Russophiles from western Ukraine fighting for Kolchak in the Urals was a great-uncle.

    I was describing the nation, not the label/self-identity (the map is not the territory, to use Korzybski's quote in a different context). Whether this people are called Ukrainians or Little Russians or Rusyns or Rusnaks, it is irrelevant. The "Ukrainian label" happened to win, for various historical reasons, but if some other identity had won instead it would still be the same people, and this was what I was discussing. And you were wrong on numerous details:

    In fact, the dominant mass of peasantry and townsmen, as the twentieth century broke in Glaicia, considered themselves “Ruski”, and looked to Russia as defence against their immediate Polish overlords, and the Austrian administration over them.
     
    You are wrong. The Russophiles were at their peak in the 1860s and were down to perhaps 25% support among Galicians by 1900.

    Ironically the Russian Idea was originally supported by Austria, as the Ukrainian Idea was later. Originally Galicia's nobles had a pro-Polish orientation - Gente Rutheni, natione Poloni (many of the Russophiles in their youth had crossed the border and taken part in anti-Russian Polish noble insurrections), but when Russia and Austria were allies an anti-Polish, pro- Russian orientation was strongly encouraged by the Austrian officials. When Russia and Austria became rivals later in the 19th century this became unacceptable, so the Austrians shifted their support to an idea that was both anti-Polish and anti-Russian, inviting in exiles from Russian Ukraine to promote this new idea. So ironically native Galicians from ancient boyar families tended to be pro-Russian, while arriving easterners tended to be pro-Ukrainian in orientation.

    Furthermore, the Ukrainian population was anti-Polish, but not generally anti-Austrian, seeing the good "tsysar" as a liberator from the hated Poles. Rejection by the Austrian authorities actually contributed to the Russophile loss of popularity among the peasants.

    Sheptytskyi took charge of St. Yurii’s, the great Uniate Cathedral of Lvivs, he had to drive the “Russki” deacons out of the church by force,
     
    Force was generally not used, it was more a matter of not promoting them within the Church and waiting for the ones within the Church to retire or die. The process was slow enough that in the beginning of his reign, Ukrainian nationalists were angry at Sheptytsky for his tolerance.

    encouraged by the dominant Poles in the area and
     
    Quite the opposite. Notwithstanding the ideological anti-Polishness, Russophiles in Galicia lived off Polish support. They were the weaker party and the Poles, seeking to divide the Eastern Slavs, accordingly tried to strengthen the Russophiles. Poles renamed the Ukrainian language department at Lviv University as the Rusyn language department, for example, and gave back to Russophiles institutions that the Ukrainians had taken from them.

    Poles supported Ukrainians within the Russian Empire (Kiev, etc.) but not within Galicia.

    AP, it would be a pleasure to meet with you. We could have some interesting discussions. But for now, I would like to make but some several points here.

    To say you are descended of these people, to speak about your grandfather (though I am impressed about his meeting with Bruslov!), is really not a great convincer of anything, and gives you no extra authority when it comes to the weight of your argument. My father was a Kuban Cossack, I am descended of Zaphorians who moved to Kuban in 1790, one of the luminaries of Kuban Cossack Ukrainianists, Wasyl Ivanis, was a family member, etc. So what? That kind of past inheritance really means little for either you or me when it comes to the authority which we bring to a subject — other than that we are more interested in our pasts, and probably better read on them. And perhaps more bigotted because of this. We have to be careful.

    You make very many points about the Rus/ki population of Galicia, about the Polish-Ukrainian-Austrian nexus and interplay. Yes, it was complex, and it was in constanbt flux, shaped by developments both local and international. And with some of your points I agree, with some I don’t. And I don’t mean to bore you and others now with rejoinders and rebuttals on a great number of them, other than this one retort. The Russophile “dispositions” is debated, and we can argue until we’re both spent on just how strong it was. No one knows for a certainty but the fact remains that it was strong, and I can cite different percentages from contemporaries and other authorites which give a far higher russkii/rusyn disposition than your 25%.

    But I fear you may have missed my whole intent. Perhaps I was not clear. What I really want to get across is this. The western Ukrainians of the pre-twentieth century were not “Ukrainians” as we know this concept now. This was pre-Mikhnovsky (who had virtually no following whatsoever); this was pre-RUP; this was pre-1917 and the Rada experience (where the strangest of things happened, with, for example, the Ukrainian Galician Army eventually joining forces with the Red Army); this was pre-OUN and Bandera and WWII and the re-shaping of Galician Ukrainian identity. The “Ukrainianess” of today, shaped and evolved through all the above experiences and more, (and concomitantly all which shaped those who rule Ukraine today), is very different from those who came into the Russia Empire from the western Ukrainian regions in the 18th to 19th century, and in fact from the time of Ivan the Awe-Inspiring (rather than the “Teribble”, as you would be aware).

    People seem to forget historical time, causation and evolution, and for propaganda purposes retroject back into the past the values to which they cleave today. Contrary to what Hrushevsky and his acolytes believe (that Ukrainians were fully formed and self-conscious of their distinct Ukrainianness from the 4th century on, ever struggling against all sorts of oppressors throughout historical time), anyone who has a sense of history will recognize this as absurd. Ukrainians pre-twentieth century were not in the least what many of them are today. (Neither were the Russians, or any other peoples, people for that matter).

    What we do know is that, throughout the centuries preceding the twentieth, the residual inhabitants of the western lands, before conquest by the Lithuanians and subsequent subjection to the Poles and later Austrians, always called themselves, “self-defined” themselves, as “ruski” or “rusyn”, not “Ukrainians”. And they held on to their Orthodox faith (not all, of course, hence the Uniates). And their self-identification and values were of a different order than that which is posited today. And their feelings about Russia were very different from what is expressed about Russia today by the luminaries of Ukrainian self-awareness. And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people — Poles, Austrians, Germans, and “Ukrainian” intellectuals who bought into this movement — to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia. Hence even the drive to erase the “R” word out their identity — “ruski”, “russki”, “rusyn”, just too strong an etymologial connection with “rus”. Thus, even “Borderlanders” worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.

    So, yes, “Ukrainians” always came into the Russian Empire. They were generally welcomed, with few exceptions. They brought learning to the more distant northen lands from a much more dynamic south. They in fact twice “Ukrainianized” the Russian language — following the Time of Troubles and with Peter the Great. (Odd, Russians don’t seem to mind this). But with this rider kept in mind — these peole were not (anachronistically) “UKRAINIANS”; they were “RUSKI”, bringing with them a value set which had nothing whatever at all to do with today’s “Ukrainians”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Thank you for your post and kind words.

    And actually, I don't disagree with most of what you have written. When I use the term Ukrainians to refer to people of Ukraine in the 19th, or 17th century, the ancestors of those who now consider themselves to be Ukrainians, I do not mean they they considered themselves to belong to the modern idea of a Ukrainian nation. I am rather describing a people with a particular shared history, language, culture, location and origins. These ingredients (roughly - Eastern Christianity, East Slavic culture, heavy influence from Polish overlords as the English were heavily influenced by Franco-Norman ones) were in place by the 15th century in Galicia and 16th in the rest of Ukraine. These people were not Russians, understood in the modern context as the people of Russia with their own shared history, language, culture, etc.

    It strikes me as a bit odd and inaccurate to imply that people belongs to a different ethnic group than their own grandchildren by referring to them as Ruthenians or Rusyns rather than Ukrainians; in many cases an individual was a Rusyn in his youth but a Ukrainian later in life. When speaking of the complex ideological conflicts, it is accurate to refer to so-and-so as a Rusyn activist and the other as a Ukrainian one.

    Essentially, there is one particular people, who were once called Rusyns, Little Russians, Rusnaks etc. but who are now called and call themselves Ukrainians. Had history turned out differently, these people might be called Little Russians now. Or Rusyns. But it didn't, they are Ukrainians, and in referring to their ancestors I just use the modern word rather than imply that these were Russians or a different people called Rusyns who somehow disappeared from those lands.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear about that, though I guess the topic itself is rather complex.

    As an aside, and you probably know this, the nationalist Polish government of the 1920s and 1930s used both Ukrainian and Rusyn (Ruskie) on their census (they would inflate the number of Ruthenians - if an eastern Slav didn't explicitly state they were Ukrainian the default was Ruskie). In doing so they were able to present a Polish "plurality" in areas where Ukrainians + Rusyns outnumbered Poles but each group individually was smaller than the Polish group. In the 1931 Polish census 3.2 million people were counted as Ukrainians and 1.2 million counted as Rusyns.

    And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people — Poles, Austrians, Germans, and “Ukrainian” intellectuals who bought into this movement — to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia
     
    While this is true, it is also somewhat of an exaggeration. Had distance from Russia been the real goal, the standardized language would have been based on the Galician dialect, the one furthest from Russia. Instead it was based on the speech of Poltava - the most homogeneous Little Russian region in the world, indicating that the goal was purity and not strictly distance from Russia. Of course this speech was much closer to Galician than was Great Russian, and this greatly contributed to the Ukrainianist victory over the Russophiles in Galicia. The Ukrainianists also strongly supported Easternizing trends in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, purging it of Latin influences, and retention of the Cyrillic alphabet.

    Thus, even “Borderlanders” worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.
     
    And there one comes across Russian myth-making. For much of its history Rus was a fairly loose Scandinavian-run trading enterprise, and not some sort of a Russian Nation State. Russian nationalists used the name as "proof" of these people being one, and Ukrainianists reacted to this abuse of the past by cutting off the Rus connection.
  131. @GB
    AP, it would be a pleasure to meet with you. We could have some interesting discussions. But for now, I would like to make but some several points here.

    To say you are descended of these people, to speak about your grandfather (though I am impressed about his meeting with Bruslov!), is really not a great convincer of anything, and gives you no extra authority when it comes to the weight of your argument. My father was a Kuban Cossack, I am descended of Zaphorians who moved to Kuban in 1790, one of the luminaries of Kuban Cossack Ukrainianists, Wasyl Ivanis, was a family member, etc. So what? That kind of past inheritance really means little for either you or me when it comes to the authority which we bring to a subject -- other than that we are more interested in our pasts, and probably better read on them. And perhaps more bigotted because of this. We have to be careful.

    You make very many points about the Rus/ki population of Galicia, about the Polish-Ukrainian-Austrian nexus and interplay. Yes, it was complex, and it was in constanbt flux, shaped by developments both local and international. And with some of your points I agree, with some I don't. And I don't mean to bore you and others now with rejoinders and rebuttals on a great number of them, other than this one retort. The Russophile "dispositions" is debated, and we can argue until we're both spent on just how strong it was. No one knows for a certainty but the fact remains that it was strong, and I can cite different percentages from contemporaries and other authorites which give a far higher russkii/rusyn disposition than your 25%.

    But I fear you may have missed my whole intent. Perhaps I was not clear. What I really want to get across is this. The western Ukrainians of the pre-twentieth century were not "Ukrainians" as we know this concept now. This was pre-Mikhnovsky (who had virtually no following whatsoever); this was pre-RUP; this was pre-1917 and the Rada experience (where the strangest of things happened, with, for example, the Ukrainian Galician Army eventually joining forces with the Red Army); this was pre-OUN and Bandera and WWII and the re-shaping of Galician Ukrainian identity. The "Ukrainianess" of today, shaped and evolved through all the above experiences and more, (and concomitantly all which shaped those who rule Ukraine today), is very different from those who came into the Russia Empire from the western Ukrainian regions in the 18th to 19th century, and in fact from the time of Ivan the Awe-Inspiring (rather than the "Teribble", as you would be aware).

    People seem to forget historical time, causation and evolution, and for propaganda purposes retroject back into the past the values to which they cleave today. Contrary to what Hrushevsky and his acolytes believe (that Ukrainians were fully formed and self-conscious of their distinct Ukrainianness from the 4th century on, ever struggling against all sorts of oppressors throughout historical time), anyone who has a sense of history will recognize this as absurd. Ukrainians pre-twentieth century were not in the least what many of them are today. (Neither were the Russians, or any other peoples, people for that matter).

    What we do know is that, throughout the centuries preceding the twentieth, the residual inhabitants of the western lands, before conquest by the Lithuanians and subsequent subjection to the Poles and later Austrians, always called themselves, "self-defined" themselves, as "ruski" or "rusyn", not "Ukrainians". And they held on to their Orthodox faith (not all, of course, hence the Uniates). And their self-identification and values were of a different order than that which is posited today. And their feelings about Russia were very different from what is expressed about Russia today by the luminaries of Ukrainian self-awareness. And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people -- Poles, Austrians, Germans, and "Ukrainian" intellectuals who bought into this movement -- to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia. Hence even the drive to erase the "R" word out their identity -- "ruski", "russki", "rusyn", just too strong an etymologial connection with "rus". Thus, even "Borderlanders" worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.

    So, yes, "Ukrainians" always came into the Russian Empire. They were generally welcomed, with few exceptions. They brought learning to the more distant northen lands from a much more dynamic south. They in fact twice "Ukrainianized" the Russian language -- following the Time of Troubles and with Peter the Great. (Odd, Russians don't seem to mind this). But with this rider kept in mind -- these peole were not (anachronistically) "UKRAINIANS"; they were "RUSKI", bringing with them a value set which had nothing whatever at all to do with today's "Ukrainians".

    Thank you for your post and kind words.

    And actually, I don’t disagree with most of what you have written. When I use the term Ukrainians to refer to people of Ukraine in the 19th, or 17th century, the ancestors of those who now consider themselves to be Ukrainians, I do not mean they they considered themselves to belong to the modern idea of a Ukrainian nation. I am rather describing a people with a particular shared history, language, culture, location and origins. These ingredients (roughly – Eastern Christianity, East Slavic culture, heavy influence from Polish overlords as the English were heavily influenced by Franco-Norman ones) were in place by the 15th century in Galicia and 16th in the rest of Ukraine. These people were not Russians, understood in the modern context as the people of Russia with their own shared history, language, culture, etc.

    It strikes me as a bit odd and inaccurate to imply that people belongs to a different ethnic group than their own grandchildren by referring to them as Ruthenians or Rusyns rather than Ukrainians; in many cases an individual was a Rusyn in his youth but a Ukrainian later in life. When speaking of the complex ideological conflicts, it is accurate to refer to so-and-so as a Rusyn activist and the other as a Ukrainian one.

    Essentially, there is one particular people, who were once called Rusyns, Little Russians, Rusnaks etc. but who are now called and call themselves Ukrainians. Had history turned out differently, these people might be called Little Russians now. Or Rusyns. But it didn’t, they are Ukrainians, and in referring to their ancestors I just use the modern word rather than imply that these were Russians or a different people called Rusyns who somehow disappeared from those lands.

    Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that, though I guess the topic itself is rather complex.

    As an aside, and you probably know this, the nationalist Polish government of the 1920s and 1930s used both Ukrainian and Rusyn (Ruskie) on their census (they would inflate the number of Ruthenians – if an eastern Slav didn’t explicitly state they were Ukrainian the default was Ruskie). In doing so they were able to present a Polish “plurality” in areas where Ukrainians + Rusyns outnumbered Poles but each group individually was smaller than the Polish group. In the 1931 Polish census 3.2 million people were counted as Ukrainians and 1.2 million counted as Rusyns.

    And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people — Poles, Austrians, Germans, and “Ukrainian” intellectuals who bought into this movement — to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia

    While this is true, it is also somewhat of an exaggeration. Had distance from Russia been the real goal, the standardized language would have been based on the Galician dialect, the one furthest from Russia. Instead it was based on the speech of Poltava – the most homogeneous Little Russian region in the world, indicating that the goal was purity and not strictly distance from Russia. Of course this speech was much closer to Galician than was Great Russian, and this greatly contributed to the Ukrainianist victory over the Russophiles in Galicia. The Ukrainianists also strongly supported Easternizing trends in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, purging it of Latin influences, and retention of the Cyrillic alphabet.

    Thus, even “Borderlanders” worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.

    And there one comes across Russian myth-making. For much of its history Rus was a fairly loose Scandinavian-run trading enterprise, and not some sort of a Russian Nation State. Russian nationalists used the name as “proof” of these people being one, and Ukrainianists reacted to this abuse of the past by cutting off the Rus connection.

    Read More
    • Replies: @GB
    Thank you for this, AP. There are some things I'd like to say in reponse to your thoughful commentary. Unfortunately, I'm at work right now, and can't take the time. I hope they keep this comment thread going, and I'll get to them tomorrow.

    Only time for a few words about Rus. Yes, Rus was conquered by the Norsemen. At least, it's ruling elites were quickly despatched, and the Riurikids moved south and expanded their control in concentric and increasing circles over the Slavic tribes -- Ladoga, Novgorod, Kiev. But by the time of Vladimir, most have it, their Scandinavian identity was gone, and they had been integrated into the Slavic milieu that hosted them. And quite so -- it was a loose agglomeration of principalities and, given Scandinavian / Riurikid practices of inheritance, the Riurikid princes were almost eternally at war with each other. Still, there was a commonality to this era -- Orthodoxy, the monastic chronicles which were nurtured within Orthodoxy, and the Riurikid line gave it cohesion.

    However, I have studied Russian history, and I know of no sensible Russia historian who would claim that the Rus of the Rus era were "Russians", that there was a "nation", or that Rus was a unity. It was the matrix out of which Russia grew. As well as Belorussia, and Ukraine. I know that many Ukrainian extremists do not like this notion. But the reality is there. The inhabitants of these regions were part of the loose mix of Orthodox eastern Slavs. (I keep on returning to Orthodoxy not because I am any fervent believer -- in fact, I'm not a believer at all. But this was the fundamental measure of identity then. Not sole -- but fundamental). And any intelligent Russian will not use the etymological connection between Rus and Russian to either deduce or suggest that Rus equals Russian. It is, I grant, an unfair advantage that the Russians have when it comes to nomenclature in the Russia-Ukraine debate. But that is a consequence of the fact that out of the collapse of Kievan Rus, it was Muscovy that rose to ultimate prominence, and it was the only eastern Slavic polity that could, on the basis of power and self-determination, choose it's own name, and it chose Rus (logically enough, since the Tsars gathered the various "Rus" lands, as these lands were described in their offical titles even when they were ruled by foreign monarchs). So Muscovy became Rus, and there was no one to contest that, and it had a perfect and legitimate claim to that name. And, frankly, had there not been a succesful "Russia" arise, either in the south or the north or the east of the old Rus lands, neither you nor I would be discussing this matter. We'd both be speaking either Polish or German.

    An interesting aside. In Ukrainian popular culture, the people's mind as reflected in national legends ands memory, in the three Duma cycles, there is not a single word about Rus. In the Russian national epos, the Byliny, there is a whole cycle on Kiev and Vladymir Veseloe-Solnushko. That has always fascinated me. What say you to that.

    Just a couple notions put out. And I have gone on more than I should have, and now to catch up production at work ...
  132. @AP

    But the two peoples are similar. Zakarpatia is like a poorer version of Galicia.

    Completely wrong, imo. Zakarpatia is a place with all kinds of cultures and languages living together and co-existing more or less in harmony.
     
    1. I was speaking of the East Slavic peoples of Zakapatia vs. Galicians. The former are like poorer versions of the latter, the towns like poorer versions of Galician ones.

    2. You are right about the significant Hungarian and Romanian minorities in Zakarpatiya, making this province unique. Galicia has many Hutsuls also though (some of their most important towns are on the Galician side of the Carpathians). Otherwise you are just discussing minute details, like the Italian village.

    Demographics from 2001 census:

    Zakarpattiya oblast:

    Ukrainians (incl. Rusyns): 1,010,100 80.5%
    Hungarians: 151,500 12.1%
    Romanians: 32,100 2.6%
    Russians 31,000 2.5%
    Roma 14,000 1.1% (this number has been increasing)
    Slovaks 5,600 0.5%
    Germans 3,500 .3%
    Belarussians 1,500 .12%
    Jews 565 .05%

    Hungarians are basically concentrated along the southwestern border. Italians aren't listed but there must be fewer than 500 of them.

    Lviv oblast:

    Ukrainians 2,471,033 94.82%
    Russians 92,565 3.55 %
    Poles 18,948 .73 %
    Belarussians 5,437 .21 %
    Jews 2,212 .08 %
    Armenians 1 ,139 .04 %
    Moldovans 781 .03 %
    Roma 769 .03 %
    Tatars 680 .03 %
    Germans 648 .02 %

    Recently a couple thousand Crimean Tatars have settled in Lviv.

    Take away the Hungarians, Romanians and gypsies and the two provinces are similar.

    ethnic snobbery and martyr complex
     
    Projection, given your and other Russian nationalist comments about Ukrainians, Donbas, etc.

    Demographics from 2001 census

    I don’t believe their census. Most of the population in the Ivano-Frankovsk region are Hutsuls, but their census says they are all Ukrainians. It’s bullshit.

    given your and other Russian nationalist comments

    I don’t believe I made any nationalist comments. I have no problem with anyone, anywhere. I get along. But, like I said in another thread, the country formerly known as ‘Ukraine’ is not, in my opinion, feasible anymore, and they simply need to separate into 2 (or more) parts, each going its own merry way.

    Besides (on a lighter note), many years ago molfar Nechay predicted just that, and I hear the guy was never wrong…
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXXIOcTkDAE

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  133. Demographics from 2001 census

    I don’t believe their census. Most of the population in the Ivano-Frankovsk region are Hutsuls, but their census says they are all Ukrainians. It’s bullshit.

    Are you being sarcastic? Most Hutsuls self-identify as Ukrainians. Quite a few were in UPA. The Hutsuls of Ivano-Frankivsk overwhelmingly vote for Ukrainian nationalist parties.

    ‘Ukraine’ is not, in my opinion, feasible anymore, and they simply need to separate into 2 (or more) parts, each going its own merry way.

    It already has, the incorrigible parts have left, hopefully some decent and fair arrangement can be made to stabilize the current frontier and end the bloodshed. But politically, neither Kiev nor Moscow want this.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    Are you being sarcastic? Most Hutsuls self-identify as Ukrainians.
     
    They certainly identify as Ukrainians, but also they certainly have a distinct ethnic character. I've been to places there, and everything is distinctly Hutsul. They have the Hutsul language, the Hutsul culture, compact Hutsul communities, and they know it, they know they are Hutsuls. They are certainly a far more real ethnic group than, say, "Italian-Americans". And in the census this ethnic group is virtually non-existent. That's just not plausible.
  134. @Kirt
    Saker, are there any reliable charitable organizations you could recommend which provide aid for injured or displaced people in Novorussia? I try to use at least some of my charitable contributions to help people damaged by the foreign policy of the US regime; in other words, to counteract the evil use of my tax money. Thank you.

    You could look up “littlehirosima”. Fort Russ occasionally has articles about “littlehirosima”, a group that provides aid relief to children and families affected by the civil war in Novorussia, and they appear to accept donations through paypal.

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  135. @AP
    Thank you for your post and kind words.

    And actually, I don't disagree with most of what you have written. When I use the term Ukrainians to refer to people of Ukraine in the 19th, or 17th century, the ancestors of those who now consider themselves to be Ukrainians, I do not mean they they considered themselves to belong to the modern idea of a Ukrainian nation. I am rather describing a people with a particular shared history, language, culture, location and origins. These ingredients (roughly - Eastern Christianity, East Slavic culture, heavy influence from Polish overlords as the English were heavily influenced by Franco-Norman ones) were in place by the 15th century in Galicia and 16th in the rest of Ukraine. These people were not Russians, understood in the modern context as the people of Russia with their own shared history, language, culture, etc.

    It strikes me as a bit odd and inaccurate to imply that people belongs to a different ethnic group than their own grandchildren by referring to them as Ruthenians or Rusyns rather than Ukrainians; in many cases an individual was a Rusyn in his youth but a Ukrainian later in life. When speaking of the complex ideological conflicts, it is accurate to refer to so-and-so as a Rusyn activist and the other as a Ukrainian one.

    Essentially, there is one particular people, who were once called Rusyns, Little Russians, Rusnaks etc. but who are now called and call themselves Ukrainians. Had history turned out differently, these people might be called Little Russians now. Or Rusyns. But it didn't, they are Ukrainians, and in referring to their ancestors I just use the modern word rather than imply that these were Russians or a different people called Rusyns who somehow disappeared from those lands.

    Sorry if I wasn't clear about that, though I guess the topic itself is rather complex.

    As an aside, and you probably know this, the nationalist Polish government of the 1920s and 1930s used both Ukrainian and Rusyn (Ruskie) on their census (they would inflate the number of Ruthenians - if an eastern Slav didn't explicitly state they were Ukrainian the default was Ruskie). In doing so they were able to present a Polish "plurality" in areas where Ukrainians + Rusyns outnumbered Poles but each group individually was smaller than the Polish group. In the 1931 Polish census 3.2 million people were counted as Ukrainians and 1.2 million counted as Rusyns.

    And there were tremendous efforts expended by all sorts of people — Poles, Austrians, Germans, and “Ukrainian” intellectuals who bought into this movement — to encourage an identity among the russki /rusyn which would, in its fundamental premise, fix an identity for these people standing pivotally upon extreme demarcation from, and perceived victimization by, Russia
     
    While this is true, it is also somewhat of an exaggeration. Had distance from Russia been the real goal, the standardized language would have been based on the Galician dialect, the one furthest from Russia. Instead it was based on the speech of Poltava - the most homogeneous Little Russian region in the world, indicating that the goal was purity and not strictly distance from Russia. Of course this speech was much closer to Galician than was Great Russian, and this greatly contributed to the Ukrainianist victory over the Russophiles in Galicia. The Ukrainianists also strongly supported Easternizing trends in the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, purging it of Latin influences, and retention of the Cyrillic alphabet.

    Thus, even “Borderlanders” worked better for those driven to excoriate the Rus / Russian connection.
     
    And there one comes across Russian myth-making. For much of its history Rus was a fairly loose Scandinavian-run trading enterprise, and not some sort of a Russian Nation State. Russian nationalists used the name as "proof" of these people being one, and Ukrainianists reacted to this abuse of the past by cutting off the Rus connection.

    Thank you for this, AP. There are some things I’d like to say in reponse to your thoughful commentary. Unfortunately, I’m at work right now, and can’t take the time. I hope they keep this comment thread going, and I’ll get to them tomorrow.

    Only time for a few words about Rus. Yes, Rus was conquered by the Norsemen. At least, it’s ruling elites were quickly despatched, and the Riurikids moved south and expanded their control in concentric and increasing circles over the Slavic tribes — Ladoga, Novgorod, Kiev. But by the time of Vladimir, most have it, their Scandinavian identity was gone, and they had been integrated into the Slavic milieu that hosted them. And quite so — it was a loose agglomeration of principalities and, given Scandinavian / Riurikid practices of inheritance, the Riurikid princes were almost eternally at war with each other. Still, there was a commonality to this era — Orthodoxy, the monastic chronicles which were nurtured within Orthodoxy, and the Riurikid line gave it cohesion.

    However, I have studied Russian history, and I know of no sensible Russia historian who would claim that the Rus of the Rus era were “Russians”, that there was a “nation”, or that Rus was a unity. It was the matrix out of which Russia grew. As well as Belorussia, and Ukraine. I know that many Ukrainian extremists do not like this notion. But the reality is there. The inhabitants of these regions were part of the loose mix of Orthodox eastern Slavs. (I keep on returning to Orthodoxy not because I am any fervent believer — in fact, I’m not a believer at all. But this was the fundamental measure of identity then. Not sole — but fundamental). And any intelligent Russian will not use the etymological connection between Rus and Russian to either deduce or suggest that Rus equals Russian. It is, I grant, an unfair advantage that the Russians have when it comes to nomenclature in the Russia-Ukraine debate. But that is a consequence of the fact that out of the collapse of Kievan Rus, it was Muscovy that rose to ultimate prominence, and it was the only eastern Slavic polity that could, on the basis of power and self-determination, choose it’s own name, and it chose Rus (logically enough, since the Tsars gathered the various “Rus” lands, as these lands were described in their offical titles even when they were ruled by foreign monarchs). So Muscovy became Rus, and there was no one to contest that, and it had a perfect and legitimate claim to that name. And, frankly, had there not been a succesful “Russia” arise, either in the south or the north or the east of the old Rus lands, neither you nor I would be discussing this matter. We’d both be speaking either Polish or German.

    An interesting aside. In Ukrainian popular culture, the people’s mind as reflected in national legends ands memory, in the three Duma cycles, there is not a single word about Rus. In the Russian national epos, the Byliny, there is a whole cycle on Kiev and Vladymir Veseloe-Solnushko. That has always fascinated me. What say you to that.

    Just a couple notions put out. And I have gone on more than I should have, and now to catch up production at work …

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  136. @Seamus Padraig
    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html

    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html

    American criminal needs your help:

    https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/618062852558069760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    No, better send money to Ukrainian Nazis who need your help to bomb the Russian-speaking civilians.
  137. @AP

    Demographics from 2001 census

    I don’t believe their census. Most of the population in the Ivano-Frankovsk region are Hutsuls, but their census says they are all Ukrainians. It’s bullshit.
     
    Are you being sarcastic? Most Hutsuls self-identify as Ukrainians. Quite a few were in UPA. The Hutsuls of Ivano-Frankivsk overwhelmingly vote for Ukrainian nationalist parties.

    ‘Ukraine’ is not, in my opinion, feasible anymore, and they simply need to separate into 2 (or more) parts, each going its own merry way.
     
    It already has, the incorrigible parts have left, hopefully some decent and fair arrangement can be made to stabilize the current frontier and end the bloodshed. But politically, neither Kiev nor Moscow want this.

    Are you being sarcastic? Most Hutsuls self-identify as Ukrainians.

    They certainly identify as Ukrainians, but also they certainly have a distinct ethnic character. I’ve been to places there, and everything is distinctly Hutsul. They have the Hutsul language, the Hutsul culture, compact Hutsul communities, and they know it, they know they are Hutsuls. They are certainly a far more real ethnic group than, say, “Italian-Americans”. And in the census this ethnic group is virtually non-existent. That’s just not plausible.

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    • Replies: @AP
    I don't think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.
  138. @Mao Cheng Ji

    Are you being sarcastic? Most Hutsuls self-identify as Ukrainians.
     
    They certainly identify as Ukrainians, but also they certainly have a distinct ethnic character. I've been to places there, and everything is distinctly Hutsul. They have the Hutsul language, the Hutsul culture, compact Hutsul communities, and they know it, they know they are Hutsuls. They are certainly a far more real ethnic group than, say, "Italian-Americans". And in the census this ethnic group is virtually non-existent. That's just not plausible.

    I don’t think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.

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    • Replies: @Mao Cheng Ji

    I don’t think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.
     
    That's fine. By the same token, some people don't believe that Malorussians are an ethnic group separate from the Russians. Census, however, isn't supposed to be political.
  139. @annamaria
    And what is your explanation to the Nuland-Kagan revolution? - Democracy on the march, a la Libya? Designed and implemented by whom - by the well-known ziocons (like a Cheney pupil from the Kagans' clan of warmongers). Oops!

    As for your suggestion that Russians are dreaming of the US intervention, what kind a person could be so totally ignorant about the civilian casualties that the USSR had suffered during the WWII and about the consequent aversion of the Russians towards a war? There is not a family among the former Soviets that escaped the horrors of the WWII war. Only the armchair generals of neocon persuasion and the most hardened Russophobes could confabulate your kind of a "plan of Russian nationalists." The Ukrainian crisis has generated an intense stress among general population of RF. The DC "activists" are not able to comprehend this stress because the US has not experienced a foreign invasions for centuries, whereas the Russophobes, particularly the admirers of Bandera and such, cannot be happier about the stress.

    Look what Ukraine has been going on through right now. Do you really believe that the State Dept. has started the Nuland-Kagan revolution in order to lift Ukraine to prosperity? Does not Ukraine need $10-$15 million per/day to a greater degree than Israel? Then where is the money? Where is a Marshall plan for Ukraine? - Nothing. There is zero compassion for the ordinary Ukrainians from the State Dept. The sooner Ukrainians realize that their country was used as a patsy against RF, the speedier will be recovery from the neo-Nazi/oligarchic nightmare that Ukraine suffers right now. If Russia was able to recover from the Harvard (imbecile) Boys and from the wholesale looting under the supervision of State Dept., Ukraine could do that as well. But the road to recovery will be difficult and long.

    As we have discussed before, when it came to practical actions, the best Nuland could do was suggest bringing John Kerry over to make a speech. (and give out cookies). As for 2004, read Wikileaks. The US Embassy cables are there to see.

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  140. @Felix Keverich
    Stalin and his associates were committed communists. From their perspective, there was no such thing as a nation. All people were considered the same and equal, and the goal was to bring them all together in a global Soviet superstate.

    You know that you're standing on shaky ground, when you must harken back to communist regime as a source of legitimacy for Ukraine, its present borders, territorial claims to Crimea etc.

    Nor would he have said “three votes or we march on München” so what was the argument used in that debate?
     
    You meant it to be sarcastic, I think the fact that Soviet army was occupying central Europe did give him some leverage.

    See #132 (meant to be and #134 more or less dullicated as a result of an exogenous (to UR) softwarecproblem.

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  141. @CanSpeccy
    Actually it was at Lenin's insistence that the Soviet Union be established as a federation of formally equal nations. That's why Putin said Lenin had place a time bomb beneath the Soviet Union.

    See #147 (and #132 or #134)

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  142. @Wizard of Oz
    Well I don't think you are stupid in the sense of lacking even modest cognitive ability. But the question arises why you should allow yourself to be seen as so obviously careless. Perhaps that is at least as often the form stupidity takes if someone is blind or arrogant enough to suppose that others won't see it. Then again malice could explain it: free wheeling malice or maybe for some reason I haven't grasped focused on this anonymous Australian.

    Can you not see how careless, at best, it makes you look that you jump in to a conversation others were having on the side to make abusive and, above all, obviously foolish, comments directed at me? Anyone can see that I was actually complimenting people for their adding relevant information prompted by my "debating point" not referring to them as "Russian chauvinists", and on their civility in doing so, in contrast to your gratuitous incivility.

    Anyone not under the influence of mind altering substances or pathological malice, or seized by distressing sense of inadequacy, would read my reference to " young [sic, NB] Russian chauvinists" as emphasising my goodwill to the other commenters by making an essentially amiable joke about young enthusiasts who have still much to learn - clearly in contrast to the helpful commenters!

    Oxford Online Dictionary
    chauvinist
    NOUN
    1 A person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism.
    Example sentences
    1.1 A person displaying excessive or prejudiced support for their own cause, group, or sex.
    ‘we don’t want to lay ourselves open to charges that we’re chauvinists’
    ‘a hard-drinking male chauvinist’

    I would rather be your enemy than be your friend called “chauvinists” by you. You do not just pick up a deliberately insulting phrase put out here by the Ukrainian/Galician nut-case commenters and turn it into buddy humor. But, anyway, I am not your father to be teaching you manners. Not continuing this discussion on.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I leave aside any faint hope I may have had that you might admit that you falsely asserted that I had called helpful commenters "Russian chauvinists".

    I note instead that your attempt to slide out from under your load of BS verbiage is as misbegotten as the software manipulation you appear to have effected to stop me commenting for what turned out to be less than 24 hours.

    You are effectively saying that there are no non trivial number of young Russian nationalists who deserve to be called Russian chauvinists according to the definitions you cite. You must surely know that mature civilised people are often somewhat disdainful, if genially so, of young enthusiasts of extreme views but limited knowledge wherever they ate to be found. Every politician knows that the ardour of his young party supporters is usually ten times as intense as his own.
  143. @AP

    Contact Russell Bonner Bentley, an American volunteer fighting in (and for) Donbass: http://www.russelltexasbentley.com/p/donate.html
     
    American criminal needs your help:

    https://twitter.com/RobPulseNews/status/618062852558069760?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw

    No, better send money to Ukrainian Nazis who need your help to bomb the Russian-speaking civilians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    I assume you are even more critical of the Syrian and Russian governments, give that when faced with similar circumstances (armed rebels supported by foreign fighters, armed by a foreign country, based in populated areas) their civilian kill tolls were far higher than in Donbas?
  144. @Kiza
    No, better send money to Ukrainian Nazis who need your help to bomb the Russian-speaking civilians.

    I assume you are even more critical of the Syrian and Russian governments, give that when faced with similar circumstances (armed rebels supported by foreign fighters, armed by a foreign country, based in populated areas) their civilian kill tolls were far higher than in Donbas?

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Are you so lost in your chauvinism that you compare an illegal coup government of Ukraine with a legitemate properly elected Syrian government? Then you are really not a commenter at a level to deserve a debate. Just keep spewing your frustration and hate here, you will get your Nazi Ukraine but without the ethnic Russian part.
  145. @Kiza

    Oxford Online Dictionary
    chauvinist
    NOUN
    1 A person displaying aggressive or exaggerated patriotism.
    Example sentences
    1.1 A person displaying excessive or prejudiced support for their own cause, group, or sex.
    ‘we don't want to lay ourselves open to charges that we're chauvinists’
    ‘a hard-drinking male chauvinist’
     
    I would rather be your enemy than be your friend called "chauvinists" by you. You do not just pick up a deliberately insulting phrase put out here by the Ukrainian/Galician nut-case commenters and turn it into buddy humor. But, anyway, I am not your father to be teaching you manners. Not continuing this discussion on.

    I leave aside any faint hope I may have had that you might admit that you falsely asserted that I had called helpful commenters “Russian chauvinists”.

    I note instead that your attempt to slide out from under your load of BS verbiage is as misbegotten as the software manipulation you appear to have effected to stop me commenting for what turned out to be less than 24 hours.

    You are effectively saying that there are no non trivial number of young Russian nationalists who deserve to be called Russian chauvinists according to the definitions you cite. You must surely know that mature civilised people are often somewhat disdainful, if genially so, of young enthusiasts of extreme views but limited knowledge wherever they ate to be found. Every politician knows that the ardour of his young party supporters is usually ten times as intense as his own.

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  146. @AP
    I don't think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.

    I don’t think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.

    That’s fine. By the same token, some people don’t believe that Malorussians are an ethnic group separate from the Russians. Census, however, isn’t supposed to be political.

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    • Replies: @AP
    Differences between highland Scots and other Scots, and Hutsuls and other Galicians, are far smaller than between Ukrainians/Little Russians and Russians.
  147. So many comments, yet I didn’t see one reference to Viktor Yanukovych. If he really did steal billions of dollars from Ukraine and order the shooting of civilians, it makes the rage against him and his Russian-allied associates understandable. For all of America’s faults, I don’t think any U.S. politician has become a billionaire (!) while in office or after it.

    I visit Ukraine regularly and have Ukrainian friends. These people don’t need the U.S. State Dept. to secretly convince them that rampant corruption, in concert with the Russian governmental-oligarchical system, has wrecked their country and they’re beyond tired of it. Being against war with Russia doesn’t mean you have to support the Russian government. If Putin were a great friend and defender of Western civilization, he wouldn’t constantly threaten its destruction with nuclear war. Russians suffer greatly from this system too. If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov.

    I agree that Ukraine’s national identity is quite weak (though nothing has done more to strengthen it than the Russian invasion) but it seems like both Saker and many commenters here are suggesting that Ukraine doesn’t deserve to exist. Demonizing them with such juvenile and frankly sick terms like “Ukronazi” sows rancor for no reason, that’s just hateful BS. If there is one bright spot to this whole mess it must be mass influx of beautiful Ukrainian women into Warsaw. Even the grayest winter day is made bright.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-03-06/ukraine-has-lost-billions-trade-agreement-eu-year-one
    , @annamaria
    "If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov."
    Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?
    There was a sudden death of a German journalist Udo OlfKotte who had exceptional courage to explain, authoritatively, that MSM is controlled by the CIA. Does it bother you that he actually talked about the possibility of his premature death from the hands of - guess whom? There was also the great Michael Hastings who also talked about the possibility of being murdered for his real journalistic work: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/wikileaks-reveals-cia-ability-hack-cars-assassinations/
    The MSM is num about such figures as Oleg Buzina, murdered in Ukraine for his fearless journalism. Any thoughts about getting shot in the back for being in opposition to this governmental body? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-xFOY5Y1I
    or to this person? https://truthscooper.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/kolomoisky-jewish-oligarch-hires-nazi-thugs-to-kill-russians-what-could-go-wrong/
    On the Ukrainian neo-Nazis: Perhaps this would a surprise for you, but there are real neo-Nazis in Ukraine, no need to invent them. You could find them, decorated with Nazi insignias, on a pictures with the representative of the State Dept Nuand-Kagan and with McCain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCIFAITom4
    https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag/victoria-nuland/
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    I am not suggesting. I am saying it. Ukraine does not deserve to exist.
  148. @AP
    I assume you are even more critical of the Syrian and Russian governments, give that when faced with similar circumstances (armed rebels supported by foreign fighters, armed by a foreign country, based in populated areas) their civilian kill tolls were far higher than in Donbas?

    Are you so lost in your chauvinism that you compare an illegal coup government of Ukraine with a legitemate properly elected Syrian government? Then you are really not a commenter at a level to deserve a debate. Just keep spewing your frustration and hate here, you will get your Nazi Ukraine but without the ethnic Russian part.

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  149. @Mao Cheng Ji

    I don’t think Polish Gorals are a separate ethnic group from other Poles, or Scots highlanders are a different ethnic group than other Scottish people.
     
    That's fine. By the same token, some people don't believe that Malorussians are an ethnic group separate from the Russians. Census, however, isn't supposed to be political.

    Differences between highland Scots and other Scots, and Hutsuls and other Galicians, are far smaller than between Ukrainians/Little Russians and Russians.

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    • Replies: @Philip Owen
    I can't quite agree with you there, The Highland Scots were Gaelic speaking immigrants from Ireland. The Lowland Scots were a blend of others (to keep it simple) and have spoken Scots (a strong dialect or a closely related language) of English since the Angles joined the mix 1500 years ago. So genetically and linguistically they are or were distinct.

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the Univeristy of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosone (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West. This reference is neither of those mentioned above and its old but it also shows more German genetics in the South. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12500679

    And references to more on the subject. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21649/abstract

    And another one written in something more like English. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/multiple-origins-of-russian-mtdna.html

    Conclusion: Slavs are closely related. Much more that Highland and Lowland Scots. Genetic closeness has little to do with modern nationality. There has been a lot of history in the last 1500 years.
  150. @Nicholas
    So many comments, yet I didn't see one reference to Viktor Yanukovych. If he really did steal billions of dollars from Ukraine and order the shooting of civilians, it makes the rage against him and his Russian-allied associates understandable. For all of America's faults, I don't think any U.S. politician has become a billionaire (!) while in office or after it.

    I visit Ukraine regularly and have Ukrainian friends. These people don't need the U.S. State Dept. to secretly convince them that rampant corruption, in concert with the Russian governmental-oligarchical system, has wrecked their country and they're beyond tired of it. Being against war with Russia doesn't mean you have to support the Russian government. If Putin were a great friend and defender of Western civilization, he wouldn't constantly threaten its destruction with nuclear war. Russians suffer greatly from this system too. If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov.

    I agree that Ukraine's national identity is quite weak (though nothing has done more to strengthen it than the Russian invasion) but it seems like both Saker and many commenters here are suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve to exist. Demonizing them with such juvenile and frankly sick terms like "Ukronazi" sows rancor for no reason, that's just hateful BS. If there is one bright spot to this whole mess it must be mass influx of beautiful Ukrainian women into Warsaw. Even the grayest winter day is made bright.
    Read More
  151. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    For someone holding a US passport and writing out of Florida, to call someone across the ocean who merely fights for his own internationally acknowledged territory, when just the other week in the state of Missouri and in Philadelphia there have been massive acts of anti-Semitic vandalism is… well, how to put it mildly, dishonest? By the way, notice how there acts have been hushed down and life goes on as if nothing happened, when, if anything of this sort had happened in Europe, the US state department would be up in arms and writing all sorts of nasty reports.

    But, again, all animals are equal, but the pigs are more equal than others. All Nazis are equal, but some Nazis are more equal. To think that Saker’s own article comments, even on this site, are usually filled with anti-Semitism.

    The Ukrainian government is not Nazi by any definition. It is a pro-Western liberal government. The nationalists are a minority. The national socialists like Azov are not even in power.

    Anyone calling Ukrainians “Nazi” is a very low class propagandist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Sure. The ADL is quiet. The Lobby is seemingly content.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wRrf1QD6sEI
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c99_1463347688&comments=1&use_old_player=1
  152. @AP
    Differences between highland Scots and other Scots, and Hutsuls and other Galicians, are far smaller than between Ukrainians/Little Russians and Russians.

    I can’t quite agree with you there, The Highland Scots were Gaelic speaking immigrants from Ireland. The Lowland Scots were a blend of others (to keep it simple) and have spoken Scots (a strong dialect or a closely related language) of English since the Angles joined the mix 1500 years ago. So genetically and linguistically they are or were distinct.

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the Univeristy of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosone (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West. This reference is neither of those mentioned above and its old but it also shows more German genetics in the South. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12500679

    And references to more on the subject. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21649/abstract

    And another one written in something more like English. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/multiple-origins-of-russian-mtdna.html

    Conclusion: Slavs are closely related. Much more that Highland and Lowland Scots. Genetic closeness has little to do with modern nationality. There has been a lot of history in the last 1500 years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Thanks for the correction!
    , @Miro23

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the University of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosome (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West.
     
    Paul Barford in his excellent book, "The Early Slavs" comes to about the same conclusion using everything apart from genetic analysis.

    He uses (the few) Byzantine, Carolingian and Arab written sources with linguistic, archeological and ethnographic evidence, and finds closely related Slavonic groups (linguistic evidence) probably originating in the Southern Polish, Czech, Carpathian area, cooperating with invading Huns from the East, and moving into land abandoned by the movement of earlier Germanic tribes (who in turn occupied the collapsing Western Roman Empire).

    His linguistic evidence also shows wide ranging contacts, with German and Iranian influences overlaying the earlier Proto Balto Slavonic, and interestingly he emphasizes the importance of Christianity (from both Rome and Byzantium) in, "promoting social unity and aiding the authorities of the early state in their struggle against decentralizing tendencies in a way that no pagan religion could have done". Christianity also developed a class of educated people able to read and write and give Slavonic kingdoms a place in the newly forming Medieval world.

  153. Brits, get out of the EU before you’re forced to share in the enormous costs of resolving this EU created catastrophe!

    Read More
  154. (1) There doesn’t exist, nor will ever exist, any such thing as “Novorossiya”, hence no border, unofficial or otherwise, with it exists to be policed by border guards. Of course, the Ukrainian armed forces will repel any Moscow backed incursions on sovereign Ukrainian territory beyond the present LOC, which are increasing daily as Putin grows more frustrated with his inability to break Ukrainian resistance.

    (2) Faker should learn the distinction between documents and toilet paper.

    (3) ORDLO isn’t a “nation”, thus nothing there can be “nationalized”.

    (4) It’s understandable. When you run out of toilet paper after having spent it on printing “documents”, you start wiping your derriere with different-looking toilet paper, which is what “Russian currency” is. But thanks to the toilet paper scarcity in ORDLO, it can double as a medium of exchange, too.

    (5) Russia is awash with coal and has been shutting its own mines, putting the miners out of work – which is why they’ve been protesting in Gukovo. Hence, it needs to import coal no more than it needs to import Kremlin trolls – as irony would have it, soon to be out of work, too.

    (6) Can’t stop paying something you haven’t been paying anyway. Besides, contrary to the fairy tale propagated in ORDLO, Donbas has always been a net tax consumer rather than a tax payer.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    is this fairy tale propaganda as well?
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c99_1463347688&comments=1&use_old_player=1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lLwqCwm_2k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foqRBVlo__k
    Congratulations with the post-Nuland-revolution Ukraine.
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Why you kept steeling Russian gas?
  155. @Philip Owen
    I can't quite agree with you there, The Highland Scots were Gaelic speaking immigrants from Ireland. The Lowland Scots were a blend of others (to keep it simple) and have spoken Scots (a strong dialect or a closely related language) of English since the Angles joined the mix 1500 years ago. So genetically and linguistically they are or were distinct.

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the Univeristy of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosone (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West. This reference is neither of those mentioned above and its old but it also shows more German genetics in the South. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12500679

    And references to more on the subject. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21649/abstract

    And another one written in something more like English. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/multiple-origins-of-russian-mtdna.html

    Conclusion: Slavs are closely related. Much more that Highland and Lowland Scots. Genetic closeness has little to do with modern nationality. There has been a lot of history in the last 1500 years.

    Thanks for the correction!

    Read More
  156. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Lviv is gorgeous and definitely on the way up, it is perfect size, too. What can be better than having a little apartment in Lviv, having coffee in the morning in one of those little cafes and seeing an opera in the evening. Ukrainian women (and children) should stay in Ukraine, though.

    And, yes, there is no such thing as “Novorossia” and probably won’t be.

    Read More
  157. @Nicholas
    So many comments, yet I didn't see one reference to Viktor Yanukovych. If he really did steal billions of dollars from Ukraine and order the shooting of civilians, it makes the rage against him and his Russian-allied associates understandable. For all of America's faults, I don't think any U.S. politician has become a billionaire (!) while in office or after it.

    I visit Ukraine regularly and have Ukrainian friends. These people don't need the U.S. State Dept. to secretly convince them that rampant corruption, in concert with the Russian governmental-oligarchical system, has wrecked their country and they're beyond tired of it. Being against war with Russia doesn't mean you have to support the Russian government. If Putin were a great friend and defender of Western civilization, he wouldn't constantly threaten its destruction with nuclear war. Russians suffer greatly from this system too. If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov.

    I agree that Ukraine's national identity is quite weak (though nothing has done more to strengthen it than the Russian invasion) but it seems like both Saker and many commenters here are suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve to exist. Demonizing them with such juvenile and frankly sick terms like "Ukronazi" sows rancor for no reason, that's just hateful BS. If there is one bright spot to this whole mess it must be mass influx of beautiful Ukrainian women into Warsaw. Even the grayest winter day is made bright.

    “If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov.”
    Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?
    There was a sudden death of a German journalist Udo OlfKotte who had exceptional courage to explain, authoritatively, that MSM is controlled by the CIA. Does it bother you that he actually talked about the possibility of his premature death from the hands of – guess whom? There was also the great Michael Hastings who also talked about the possibility of being murdered for his real journalistic work: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/wikileaks-reveals-cia-ability-hack-cars-assassinations/
    The MSM is num about such figures as Oleg Buzina, murdered in Ukraine for his fearless journalism. Any thoughts about getting shot in the back for being in opposition to this governmental body? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-xFOY5Y1I
    or to this person? https://truthscooper.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/kolomoisky-jewish-oligarch-hires-nazi-thugs-to-kill-russians-what-could-go-wrong/
    On the Ukrainian neo-Nazis: Perhaps this would a surprise for you, but there are real neo-Nazis in Ukraine, no need to invent them. You could find them, decorated with Nazi insignias, on a pictures with the representative of the State Dept Nuand-Kagan and with McCain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCIFAITom4
    https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag/victoria-nuland/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    @annamaria:

    “Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?”

    Answer: Like a mafia godfather, it seems certain that an authoritarian like Putin who exercises strict control over the state apparatus, is well aware of the hits and allows them to take place rather in the manner of Henry IV who, referring to his nemesis Thomas Becket, asked “Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?”. But worse. More like the mafia requiring proof of allegiance, as in a public act of self-incrimination or a sacrifice offered to the leader.

    For example, consider the fates of Litvinenko and Nemtsov. The former, a one-time FSB officer, got into trouble for blowing the whistle on the dirty deeds of his country's domestic secret services. Litvinenko then fled to Britain in 2000 and died there in 2006 of radioactive polonium poisoning. His real first-hand knowledge of Russian dark ops derived from his access in the 1990's though he continued to make fresh allegations against the Kremlin up to his last days. He asserted that Putin had ordered the death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. He also asserted that Putin was a pedophile. In later years, his accusations grew wilder but his evidence thinner. In effect, rightly or wrongly, his revelations no longer stuck. So why would Putin bother to mount elaborate plots to eliminate Litvinenko just as his credibility ebbed?

    One theory from a Baltic intelligence official goes like this: In brief, he claimed that a one-time Georgian oligarch living in the UK, for many years virulently anti-Putin, had decided to change sides. He made overtures to the Kremlin. Officials in Putin's entourage essentially asked the oligarch to prove his bona fides. Why should they believe him? What did he have to offer? The oligarch offered Litvinenko's life. He could do so because they were friends, allied anti-Putinites living in Britain—and Litvinenko trusted him. So he set up the meeting with the killers telling Litvinenko that they had fresh information for him. The rest is public knowledge. The oligarch's name was Arkady 'Badri' Patrikatsishvili. He too died suspiciously and suddenly at his Surrey mansion soon after Litvinenko.

    The case of Boris Nemtsov's assassination also suggests that eager to please volunteers were freelancing perhaps to gain favor in the Kremlin. Nemtsov's public murder by Chechens caused an uprising in Putin’s entourage of cronies—they didn't approve of unwashed Chechens interfering in Russian affairs even to kill an opposition figure. (Putin disappeared for ten days while he settled the power struggle.) Given that the investigation into this murder, like so many others when outside freelancers offer sacrificial victims to the boss and the boss accepts the gift—nobody has yet been prosecuted for the crime—next time it could be any one of the cronies. Indeed, so indignant was Putin’s inner circle of the intrusion onto their turf that Russia's security services quickly leaked video of the shooting and even named the Chechens involved and accused Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya's strongman, of orchestrating the murder. All those indignant cronies especially those at the head of security services have since been replaced and their various agencies conglomerated under Putin's direct control. Ramzan Kadyrov remains untouched. Nemtsov and Litvinenko are just two prominent examples of this mafia-like approach to political executions within Russia and abroad. Suffice to say, the gangster ethos prevails around Putin: to trust you, the boss must have a hold over you. For that, you need to commit a crime as a kind of sacrifice to the boss—the sacrifice both of the victim and of yourself. You are never free from then on. The downside is you may ultimately need to be eliminated for knowing too much. And that might explain the sudden death of several diplomats or loyalists. Aside from Churkin, there has also been top foreign service official Andrey Malanin, who was found dead in his Athens apartment on January 9th. Churkin may have known too much about the Kremlin’s apparent meddling in the US presidential election. For his part, Malanin’s inside knowledge of Russian financial shenanigans in Greek Cyprus may have done him in. The mysterious death in November 2015 of billionaire Mikhail Lesin, former close aide to Putin, in a hotel room in Washington D.C. still remains unexplained. Rumor has it that he was talking to the FBI.
  158. @Anonymous
    For someone holding a US passport and writing out of Florida, to call someone across the ocean who merely fights for his own internationally acknowledged territory, when just the other week in the state of Missouri and in Philadelphia there have been massive acts of anti-Semitic vandalism is... well, how to put it mildly, dishonest? By the way, notice how there acts have been hushed down and life goes on as if nothing happened, when, if anything of this sort had happened in Europe, the US state department would be up in arms and writing all sorts of nasty reports.

    But, again, all animals are equal, but the pigs are more equal than others. All Nazis are equal, but some Nazis are more equal. To think that Saker's own article comments, even on this site, are usually filled with anti-Semitism.

    The Ukrainian government is not Nazi by any definition. It is a pro-Western liberal government. The nationalists are a minority. The national socialists like Azov are not even in power.

    Anyone calling Ukrainians "Nazi" is a very low class propagandist.
    Read More
  159. @Kilo 4/11
    (1) There doesn't exist, nor will ever exist, any such thing as "Novorossiya", hence no border, unofficial or otherwise, with it exists to be policed by border guards. Of course, the Ukrainian armed forces will repel any Moscow backed incursions on sovereign Ukrainian territory beyond the present LOC, which are increasing daily as Putin grows more frustrated with his inability to break Ukrainian resistance.

    (2) Faker should learn the distinction between documents and toilet paper.

    (3) ORDLO isn't a "nation", thus nothing there can be "nationalized".

    (4) It's understandable. When you run out of toilet paper after having spent it on printing "documents", you start wiping your derriere with different-looking toilet paper, which is what "Russian currency" is. But thanks to the toilet paper scarcity in ORDLO, it can double as a medium of exchange, too.

    (5) Russia is awash with coal and has been shutting its own mines, putting the miners out of work - which is why they've been protesting in Gukovo. Hence, it needs to import coal no more than it needs to import Kremlin trolls - as irony would have it, soon to be out of work, too.

    (6) Can't stop paying something you haven't been paying anyway. Besides, contrary to the fairy tale propagated in ORDLO, Donbas has always been a net tax consumer rather than a tax payer.
    Read More
  160. @Philip Owen
    I can't quite agree with you there, The Highland Scots were Gaelic speaking immigrants from Ireland. The Lowland Scots were a blend of others (to keep it simple) and have spoken Scots (a strong dialect or a closely related language) of English since the Angles joined the mix 1500 years ago. So genetically and linguistically they are or were distinct.

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the Univeristy of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosone (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West. This reference is neither of those mentioned above and its old but it also shows more German genetics in the South. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12500679

    And references to more on the subject. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21649/abstract

    And another one written in something more like English. http://dienekes.blogspot.co.uk/2011/12/multiple-origins-of-russian-mtdna.html

    Conclusion: Slavs are closely related. Much more that Highland and Lowland Scots. Genetic closeness has little to do with modern nationality. There has been a lot of history in the last 1500 years.

    That is not really the case in the Slavic Lands. Mitochondrial DNA (inherited from mothers) suggests that Great, Little, White and Black (Poles) Russians are very close but Muscovites have some Finnish inheritance and Ukrainians some Germans (the Goths settled briefly). The study was done by the University of Oxford, a relatively neutral body. There have also been Y chromosome (inherited from the father) studies that cannot distinguish Poles, Ukrainians and White Russians or Lower Volga Russians but show Finnish admixture in rural communities from Moscow to the North West.

    Paul Barford in his excellent book, “The Early Slavs” comes to about the same conclusion using everything apart from genetic analysis.

    He uses (the few) Byzantine, Carolingian and Arab written sources with linguistic, archeological and ethnographic evidence, and finds closely related Slavonic groups (linguistic evidence) probably originating in the Southern Polish, Czech, Carpathian area, cooperating with invading Huns from the East, and moving into land abandoned by the movement of earlier Germanic tribes (who in turn occupied the collapsing Western Roman Empire).

    His linguistic evidence also shows wide ranging contacts, with German and Iranian influences overlaying the earlier Proto Balto Slavonic, and interestingly he emphasizes the importance of Christianity (from both Rome and Byzantium) in, “promoting social unity and aiding the authorities of the early state in their struggle against decentralizing tendencies in a way that no pagan religion could have done”. Christianity also developed a class of educated people able to read and write and give Slavonic kingdoms a place in the newly forming Medieval world.

    Read More
  161. @annamaria
    is this fairy tale propaganda as well?
    https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c99_1463347688&comments=1&use_old_player=1
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lLwqCwm_2k
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=foqRBVlo__k
    Congratulations with the post-Nuland-revolution Ukraine.

    Bandera was crazy Hungarian.

    Read More
  162. @Kilo 4/11
    (1) There doesn't exist, nor will ever exist, any such thing as "Novorossiya", hence no border, unofficial or otherwise, with it exists to be policed by border guards. Of course, the Ukrainian armed forces will repel any Moscow backed incursions on sovereign Ukrainian territory beyond the present LOC, which are increasing daily as Putin grows more frustrated with his inability to break Ukrainian resistance.

    (2) Faker should learn the distinction between documents and toilet paper.

    (3) ORDLO isn't a "nation", thus nothing there can be "nationalized".

    (4) It's understandable. When you run out of toilet paper after having spent it on printing "documents", you start wiping your derriere with different-looking toilet paper, which is what "Russian currency" is. But thanks to the toilet paper scarcity in ORDLO, it can double as a medium of exchange, too.

    (5) Russia is awash with coal and has been shutting its own mines, putting the miners out of work - which is why they've been protesting in Gukovo. Hence, it needs to import coal no more than it needs to import Kremlin trolls - as irony would have it, soon to be out of work, too.

    (6) Can't stop paying something you haven't been paying anyway. Besides, contrary to the fairy tale propagated in ORDLO, Donbas has always been a net tax consumer rather than a tax payer.

    Why you kept steeling Russian gas?

    Read More
  163. @Nicholas
    So many comments, yet I didn't see one reference to Viktor Yanukovych. If he really did steal billions of dollars from Ukraine and order the shooting of civilians, it makes the rage against him and his Russian-allied associates understandable. For all of America's faults, I don't think any U.S. politician has become a billionaire (!) while in office or after it.

    I visit Ukraine regularly and have Ukrainian friends. These people don't need the U.S. State Dept. to secretly convince them that rampant corruption, in concert with the Russian governmental-oligarchical system, has wrecked their country and they're beyond tired of it. Being against war with Russia doesn't mean you have to support the Russian government. If Putin were a great friend and defender of Western civilization, he wouldn't constantly threaten its destruction with nuclear war. Russians suffer greatly from this system too. If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov.

    I agree that Ukraine's national identity is quite weak (though nothing has done more to strengthen it than the Russian invasion) but it seems like both Saker and many commenters here are suggesting that Ukraine doesn't deserve to exist. Demonizing them with such juvenile and frankly sick terms like "Ukronazi" sows rancor for no reason, that's just hateful BS. If there is one bright spot to this whole mess it must be mass influx of beautiful Ukrainian women into Warsaw. Even the grayest winter day is made bright.

    I am not suggesting. I am saying it. Ukraine does not deserve to exist.

    Read More
  164. […] treason was a request for Russian intervention! Check and mate. 28. The Unz Report: The Saker, The Donbass Is Breaking Away from an Agonized Ukraine. 29. Kyiv Post editorial: Russia’s War Against Ukraine. Borders […]

    Read More
  165. @annamaria
    "If they try to oppose it they get shot in the back like Boris Nemtsov."
    Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?
    There was a sudden death of a German journalist Udo OlfKotte who had exceptional courage to explain, authoritatively, that MSM is controlled by the CIA. Does it bother you that he actually talked about the possibility of his premature death from the hands of - guess whom? There was also the great Michael Hastings who also talked about the possibility of being murdered for his real journalistic work: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/wikileaks-reveals-cia-ability-hack-cars-assassinations/
    The MSM is num about such figures as Oleg Buzina, murdered in Ukraine for his fearless journalism. Any thoughts about getting shot in the back for being in opposition to this governmental body? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb-xFOY5Y1I
    or to this person? https://truthscooper.wordpress.com/2015/03/24/kolomoisky-jewish-oligarch-hires-nazi-thugs-to-kill-russians-what-could-go-wrong/
    On the Ukrainian neo-Nazis: Perhaps this would a surprise for you, but there are real neo-Nazis in Ukraine, no need to invent them. You could find them, decorated with Nazi insignias, on a pictures with the representative of the State Dept Nuand-Kagan and with McCain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCIFAITom4
    https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag/victoria-nuland/

    “Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?”

    Answer: Like a mafia godfather, it seems certain that an authoritarian like Putin who exercises strict control over the state apparatus, is well aware of the hits and allows them to take place rather in the manner of Henry IV who, referring to his nemesis Thomas Becket, asked “Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?”. But worse. More like the mafia requiring proof of allegiance, as in a public act of self-incrimination or a sacrifice offered to the leader.

    For example, consider the fates of Litvinenko and Nemtsov. The former, a one-time FSB officer, got into trouble for blowing the whistle on the dirty deeds of his country’s domestic secret services. Litvinenko then fled to Britain in 2000 and died there in 2006 of radioactive polonium poisoning. His real first-hand knowledge of Russian dark ops derived from his access in the 1990′s though he continued to make fresh allegations against the Kremlin up to his last days. He asserted that Putin had ordered the death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. He also asserted that Putin was a pedophile. In later years, his accusations grew wilder but his evidence thinner. In effect, rightly or wrongly, his revelations no longer stuck. So why would Putin bother to mount elaborate plots to eliminate Litvinenko just as his credibility ebbed?

    One theory from a Baltic intelligence official goes like this: In brief, he claimed that a one-time Georgian oligarch living in the UK, for many years virulently anti-Putin, had decided to change sides. He made overtures to the Kremlin. Officials in Putin’s entourage essentially asked the oligarch to prove his bona fides. Why should they believe him? What did he have to offer? The oligarch offered Litvinenko’s life. He could do so because they were friends, allied anti-Putinites living in Britain—and Litvinenko trusted him. So he set up the meeting with the killers telling Litvinenko that they had fresh information for him. The rest is public knowledge. The oligarch’s name was Arkady ‘Badri’ Patrikatsishvili. He too died suspiciously and suddenly at his Surrey mansion soon after Litvinenko.

    The case of Boris Nemtsov’s assassination also suggests that eager to please volunteers were freelancing perhaps to gain favor in the Kremlin. Nemtsov’s public murder by Chechens caused an uprising in Putin’s entourage of cronies—they didn’t approve of unwashed Chechens interfering in Russian affairs even to kill an opposition figure. (Putin disappeared for ten days while he settled the power struggle.) Given that the investigation into this murder, like so many others when outside freelancers offer sacrificial victims to the boss and the boss accepts the gift—nobody has yet been prosecuted for the crime—next time it could be any one of the cronies. Indeed, so indignant was Putin’s inner circle of the intrusion onto their turf that Russia’s security services quickly leaked video of the shooting and even named the Chechens involved and accused Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya’s strongman, of orchestrating the murder. All those indignant cronies especially those at the head of security services have since been replaced and their various agencies conglomerated under Putin’s direct control. Ramzan Kadyrov remains untouched. Nemtsov and Litvinenko are just two prominent examples of this mafia-like approach to political executions within Russia and abroad. Suffice to say, the gangster ethos prevails around Putin: to trust you, the boss must have a hold over you. For that, you need to commit a crime as a kind of sacrifice to the boss—the sacrifice both of the victim and of yourself. You are never free from then on. The downside is you may ultimately need to be eliminated for knowing too much. And that might explain the sudden death of several diplomats or loyalists. Aside from Churkin, there has also been top foreign service official Andrey Malanin, who was found dead in his Athens apartment on January 9th. Churkin may have known too much about the Kremlin’s apparent meddling in the US presidential election. For his part, Malanin’s inside knowledge of Russian financial shenanigans in Greek Cyprus may have done him in. The mysterious death in November 2015 of billionaire Mikhail Lesin, former close aide to Putin, in a hotel room in Washington D.C. still remains unexplained. Rumor has it that he was talking to the FBI.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    You studiously avoided the main points of my post, like these:
    "There was a sudden death of a German journalist Udo OlfKotte who had exceptional courage to explain, authoritatively, that MSM is controlled by the CIA.
    There was also the great Michael Hastings who also talked about the possibility of being murdered for his real journalistic work: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/wikileaks-reveals-cia-ability-hack-cars-assassinations/
    The MSM is num about such figures as Oleg Buzina, murdered in Ukraine for his fearless journalism.
    On the Ukrainian neo-Nazis: ... there are real neo-Nazis in Ukraine, no need to invent them. You could find them, decorated with Nazi insignias, on a pictures with the representative of the State Dept Nuand-Kagan and with McCain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCIFAITom4
    https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag/victoria-nuland/
    , @annamaria
    More on the polonium confabulations:
    Sir Robert Owen "is engaged in a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth. These are not claims I make lightly. Throughout, Sir Robert has conducted his investigation on the basis that the integrity of the investigation by Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) into Litvinenko's death could be taken for granted. He has done so despite the fact that claims by SO15 on crucial matters have changed with a frequency which makes those made by Orwell's 'Ministry of Truth' look like models of consistency." http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/01/david-hakkuk-on-sir-robert-owens-inquiry.html

    You need to comprehend the essence of Udo OlfKotte revelations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-28/top-german-journalist-admits-mainstream-media-completely-fake-we-all-lie-cia

  166. Here is a fairly up to date list of killings of journalists and other public figures who said things they shouldn’t have in Putin’s Russia:

    [MORE]

    2001:
    1 February – Eduard Burmagin, Homicide.
    24 February – Leonid Grigoryev, Homicide [nJ].
    8 March – Andrei Pivovarov, Homicide.
    31 March – Oleg Dolgantsev, Homicide [nJ].
    17 May – Vladimir Kirsanov,[82] chief editor. Kurgan, Urals Federal District. Homicide [J].
    2 June – Victor Popkov, Novaya gazeta contributore, died in Moscow Region hospital. Wounded in Chechnya two months earlier. Crossfire [J].
    11 September – Andrei Sheiko, Homicide [nJ].
    19 September – Eduard Markevich, 29, editor and publisher of local newspaper Novy Reft in Sverdlovsk Region. Shot in the back[82] in a contract killing, homicide [J].
    5 November – Elina Voronova, Homicide [nJ].
    16 November – Oleg Vedenin, Homicide.
    21 November – Alexander Babaikin, Homicide [nJ].
    1 December – Boris Mityurev, Homicide.
    2002:

    2002:
    18 January – Svetlana Makarenko, Homicide.
    4 March – Konstantin Pogodin, Novoye Delo newspaper, Nizhni Novgorod. Homicide.
    8 March – Natalya Skryl, Nashe Vremya newspaper, Taganrog. Homicide [?J].
    31 March – Valery Batuyev, Moscow News newspaper, Moscow. Homicide [nJ].
    1 April – Sergei Kalinovsky, Moskovskij Komsomolets local edition, Smolensk. Homicide [nJ].
    4 April – Vitaly Sakhn-Vald, photojournalist, Kursk. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    25 April – Leonid Shevchenko, Pervoye Chtenie newspaper, Volgograd. Homicide [nJ].
    29 April – Valery Ivanov, founder and chief editor of Tolyattinskoye Obozrenie newspaper, Samara Region.[82] Contract killing [J].
    20 May – Alexander Plotnikov, Gostiny Dvor newspaper, Tyumen. Homicide.
    6 June – Pavel Morozov, Homicide.
    25 June – Oleg Sedinko, founder of Novaya Volna TV & Radio Company, Vladivostok. Contract killing, explosive in stairwell [nJ].
    20 July – Nikolai Razmolodin, general director of Europroject TV & Radio Company, Ulyanovsk. Homicide.
    21 July – Maria Lisichkina Homicide [nJ].
    27 July – Sergei Zhabin, press service of the Moscow Region governor. Homicide [nJ].
    18 August – Nikolai Vasiliev, Cheboksary city, Chuvashia. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    25 August – Paavo Voutilainen, former chief editor of Karelia magazine, Karelia. Homicide [nJ].
    4 September – Leonid Kuznetsov, “Periodicals of Mari-El” publishing house, Yoshkar-Ola.[84] Incident not confirmed [?J].
    20 September – Igor Salikov, head of information security at Moskovskij Komsomolets newspaper in Penza. Contract killing [nJ].
    26 September – Roderick (Roddy) Scott, Frontline TV Company, Great Britain. Crossfire [J].
    2 October – Yelena Popova, Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    19 October – Leonid Plotnikov Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    26 October – Tamara Voinova (Stavropol) and Maxim Mikhailov (Kaliningrad), Dubrovka theatre siege (“Nord Ost” show), Moscow. Terrorist Act [nJ].
    21 December – Dmitry Shalayev, Kazan, Tatarstan. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    2003–2005

    2003:
    7 January – Vladimir Sukhomlin, Internet journalist and editor, Serbia.ru, Moscow. Homicide. Off-duty police convicted of his murder. Those behind the contract killing were not convicted[J].
    11 January – Yury Tishkov, sports commentator, Moscow. Contract killing [nJ].
    21 February – Sergei Verbitsky, publisher BNV newspaper. Chita. Homicide [nJ].
    18 April – Dmitry Shvets, TV-21 Northwestern Broadcasting, Murmansk. Deputy director of the independent TV-21 station (Northwestern Broadcasting), he was shot dead outside the TV offices. Shvets’ colleagues said the station had received multiple threats for its reporting on influential local politicians. Contract killing [nJ].
    3 July – Yury Shchekochikhin, Novaya gazeta, Moscow. Deputy editor of Novaya gazeta and a Duma deputy since 1993. He died just a few days before his scheduled trip to United States to discuss the results of his journalist investigation with FBI officials. He investigated the Three Whales Corruption Scandal that allegedly involved high-ranking FSB officials. Shchekochikhin died from an acute allergic reaction. There has been much speculation about cause of his death. The investigation into his death has been opened and closed four times. Homicide [J].
    4 July – Ali Astamirov, France Presse. Went missing in Nazran [?J].
    18 July – Alikhan Guliyev, freelance TV journalist, from Ingushetia. Moscow. Homicide [nJ].
    10 August – Martin Kraus, Dagestan. On way to Chechnya. Homicide [nJ].
    9 October – Alexei Sidorov, Tolyatinskoye Obozreniye, Togliatti. Second editor-in-chief of this local newspaper to be murdered. Predecessor Valery Ivanov shot in April 2002.[82] Homicide. Supposed killer acquitted [?J].
    24 October – Alexei Bakhtin, journalist and businessman, formerly Mariiskaya pravda. Mari El. Homicide [nJ].
    30 October – Yury Bugrov, editor of Provincial Telegraph. Balakovo, Saratov Region. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    25 December – Pyotr Babenko, editor of Liskinskaya gazeta. Liski, Voronezh Region. Homicide [nJ].
    2004[86]
    2004:
    1 February – Yefim Sukhanov, ATK-Media, Archangelsk. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    23 March – Farit Urazbayev, cameraman, Vladivostok TV/Radio Company, Vladivostok. Incident not Confirmed [nJ].
    2 May – Shangysh Mongush, correspondent with Khemchiktin Syldyzy newspaper, Tuva. Homicide [?J].
    9 May – Adlan Khasanov, Reuters reporter, died in Grozny bomb attack that killed Chechen President Ahmed Kadyrov. Terrorist Act [J].
    9 June – Paul Klebnikov, chief editor of newly established Russian version of Forbes magazine, Moscow. Contract killing, alleged perpetrators put on trial and acquitted. Homicide [J].
    1 July – Maxim Maximov, journalist with Gorod newspaper, St Petersburg. Body not found. Homicide [J].
    10 July – Zoya Ivanova, TV presenter, Buryatia State Television & Radio Company, Ulan Ude, Buryatia. Homicide [nJ].
    17 July – Pail Peloyan, editor of Armyansky Pereulok magazine, Moscow. Homicide [nJ].
    3 August – Vladimir Naumov, nationalist reporter, Cossack author (Russky Vestnik, Zavtra), Moscow Region. Homicide [nJ].
    24 August – Svetlana Shishkina, journalist, Kazan, Tatarstan. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    24 August – Oleg Belozyorov, Moscow-Volgograd flight. Terrorist Act [nJ].
    18 September – Vladimir Pritchin, editor-in-chief of North Baikal TV & Radio Company, Buryatia. Homicide [?J].
    27 September – Jan Travinsky (St Petersburg), in Irkutsk as political activist for election campaign.[87] Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    2005:
    23 May – Pavel Makeyev, reporter for TNT-Pulse Company, Rostov-on-Don. Run down while photographing illegal street racing. Incident not Confirmed [?J].
    28 July – Magomed Varisov, political analyst and journalist, shot dead near his home in Makhachkala, Dagestan. He “had received threats, was being followed and had unsuccessfully sought help from the local police” according to Committee to Protect Journalists. Sharia Jamaat claimed responsibility for the murder.[89] Homicide [J].
    31 August – Alexander Pitersky, Baltika Radio reporter, Saint Petersburg. Homicide [?J].
    3 September – Vladimir Pashutin, Smolensky Literator newspaper, Smolensk. Not Confirmed [nJ].
    13 October – Tamirlan Kazikhanov, head of press service for Anti-Terrorist Center of the Russian Ministry of Internal Affairs’s Main Department for the Southern Federal District, Nalchik. Crossfire [J].
    4 November – Kira Lezhneva, reporter with Kamensky rabochii newspaper, Sverdlovsk Region.[90] Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    2006:
    8 January – Vagif Kochetkov, newly appointed Trud correspondent in the region, killed and robbed in Tula. Acquittal [nJ].
    26 February – Ilya Zimin, worked for NTV Russia television channel, killed in Moscow flat. Suspect in Moldova trial. Acquittal [nJ].
    4 May – Oksana Teslo, media worker, Moscow Region. Arson attack on dacha. Homicide [nJ].
    14 May – Oleg Barabyshkin, director of radio station, Chelyabinsk. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    23 May – Vyacheslav Akatov, special reporter, Business Moscow TV show, murdered in Mytyshchi Moscow Region. Killer caught and convicted. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    25 June – Anton Kretenchuk, cameraman, local Channel 38 TV, killed in Rostov-on-Don. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    25 July – Yevgeny Gerasimenko, journalist with Saratovsky Rasklad newspaper. Murdered in Saratov. Conviction [nJ].
    31 July – Anatoly Kozulin, retired freelance journalist. Ukhta, Komi. Homicide [nJ].
    8 August – Alexander Petrov, editor-in-chief, Right to Choose magazine Omsk, murdered with family while on holiday in Altai Republic. Under-age murderer charged and prosecuted. Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    17 August – Elina Ersenoyeva, reporter for Chechenskoye obshchestvo newspaper. Abducted in Grozny, Chechnya. Missing [?J].
    13 September – Vyacheslav Plotnikov, reporter, local “Channel 41″ TV, Voronezh. Incident not Confirmed [nJ].
    7 October – Anna Politkovskaya, commentator with Novaya Gazeta, Moscow, shot in her apartment building’s elevator;.[92][93][94][95] Four accused in contract killing, acquitted in February 2009 [J].
    16 October – Anatoly Voronin, Itar-TASS news agency, Moscow. Homicide [nJ].
    28 December – Vadim Kuznetsov, editor-in-chief of World & Home. Saint Petersburg magazine, killed in Saint Petersburg. Homicide [nJ].
    2007:
    4 January – Yury Shebalkin, retired journalist, formerly with Kaliningradskaya pravda. Homicide in Kaliningrad. Conviction [nJ].
    20 January – Konstantin Borovko, presenter of “Gubernia” TV company (Russian: “Губерния”), killed in Khabarovsk.[43] Homicide. Conviction [nJ].
    2 March – Ivan Safronov, military columnist of Kommersant newspaper. Died in Moscow, cause of death disputed.[97][98] Incident not Confirmed. Investigation under Incitement to Suicide (Article 110) [?J].
    15 March – Leonid Etkind, director at Karyera newspaper. Abduction and homicide in Vodnik, Saratov Region. Conviction [nJ].
    5 April – Vyacheslav Ifanov, Novoye televidenie Aleiska, cameraman. Previously attacked by local military. Aleisk, Altai. Incident not Confirmed [?J].
    April – Marina Pisareva, deputy head of Russian office of German media group Bertelsmann was found dead at her country cottage outside Moscow in April[99][100]
    2008
    8 February – Yelena Shestakova, former journalist, St Petersburg. Killer sent to psychiatric prison. Homicide [nJ].
    21 March – Gadji Abashilov, chief of Dagestan State TV & Radio Company VGTRK, shot in his car in Makhachkala. Homicide [?J].
    21 March – Ilyas Shurpayev, Dagestani journalist covering Caucasus on Channel One, was strangled with a belt by robbers in Moscow.[101][102] Alleged killers tracked to Tajikistan and convicted there of his murder. Homicide [?J].
    2012 – 2016
    July – Alexander Khodzinsky, journalist in Tulun, was stabbed to death by a local businessman Gennady Zhigarev, former deputy.[136]
    5 December – Kazbek Gekkiev, journalist for local TV programmes in Kabardino-Balkaria, was shot dead on a Nalchik street, after getting threats from local wahhabi extremists.[137]
    2013[edit]
    9 July – Akhmednabi Akhmednabiyev, deputy editor of the Novoe Delo was killed (after numerous death threats and previous assassination attempt in January 2013[138]) by several gunshots while he was driving just 50 metres from his house on the outskirts of provincial capital Makhachkala.[139][140][141]
    2014[edit]
    1 August – Journalist and human rights activist Timur Kuashev was abducted from his home and later found dead in Kabardino-Balkaria.[142] Kuashev was previously stopped by local police a number of times and received death threats.[143]
    2016[edit]
    March 31– Journalist Dmitry Tsilikin was stabbed to death in his flat in Saint Petersburg.[144] The suspected killer is neo-nazi Sergey Kosyrev. The murder is attributed to Tsilikin’s homosexual orientation.[145]

    There’s something terribly wrong going on in Russia, and it’s quite obvious that you’re being paid to whitewash these crimes away. Good Luck with this list comrade!

    Read More
  167. I think, irrespectively of Donbas fate, the Ukraine is a dying nation. Population is crumbling and its demographics looks like the Russia’s during the 1990s.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-ukraine-dying-slow-death-literally-19529?page=2

    The tendency seems irreversible and the current regime just exacerbates the dying trend.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    Ukraine's demographics are very uneven. The western parts are fairly normal by European standards - not great, but not collapsing.

    2015 natural population growth:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/dynamics-2015-osm

    (the extreme SE has very incomplete figures, thus + figures that aren't accurate)
  168. @Aedib
    I think, irrespectively of Donbas fate, the Ukraine is a dying nation. Population is crumbling and its demographics looks like the Russia’s during the 1990s.

    http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-ukraine-dying-slow-death-literally-19529?page=2

    The tendency seems irreversible and the current regime just exacerbates the dying trend.

    Ukraine’s demographics are very uneven. The western parts are fairly normal by European standards – not great, but not collapsing.

    2015 natural population growth:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/dynamics-2015-osm

    (the extreme SE has very incomplete figures, thus + figures that aren’t accurate)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Aedib
    Interesting but logical. It seems logical that the western part perform better that the east of the country. The east had been hard hit by the war in Donbas and the repressive behavior of the current regime against the Russian speaking population. This, in turn forces many eastern Ukrainians to migrate to Russia. It is an irony that the behavior of the current Ukrainian government helps Russia to palliate its demographic problems. I am quite sure the Kremlim will be happy to receive Slavic migrant from Ukraine rather than turanid muslim form the central Asia “stans”. I think also that the differentiation between Littlerussians and Bigrussians doesn’t mean anything in the RF, so they migrant from Ukraine are generally welcomed.
  169. @AP
    Ukraine's demographics are very uneven. The western parts are fairly normal by European standards - not great, but not collapsing.

    2015 natural population growth:

    http://datatowel.in.ua/natural/dynamics-2015-osm

    (the extreme SE has very incomplete figures, thus + figures that aren't accurate)

    Interesting but logical. It seems logical that the western part perform better that the east of the country. The east had been hard hit by the war in Donbas and the repressive behavior of the current regime against the Russian speaking population. This, in turn forces many eastern Ukrainians to migrate to Russia. It is an irony that the behavior of the current Ukrainian government helps Russia to palliate its demographic problems. I am quite sure the Kremlim will be happy to receive Slavic migrant from Ukraine rather than turanid muslim form the central Asia “stans”. I think also that the differentiation between Littlerussians and Bigrussians doesn’t mean anything in the RF, so they migrant from Ukraine are generally welcomed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The demographic trends are not due to the current government, these trends have prevailed for years now. The east has been the most unstable place demographically in the world for years. It might have something to do with their habits instead. First, the East is more urban and that by definition gives you lower fertility. Second, they are probably more secular than Western Ukrainians. Third, I wouldn't be surprised if the self-destructive behavior among males is higher in the East, along with other sorts of social instability. That depletes women's marriage prospects. Sad. Although I just read that there's been a little baby boom among older women in Donbas, in places such as the tragic Avdiivka, not sure if that can make any difference.

    The TFRs in Western Ukraine, on the contrary, are in some cases higher than the European averages. And these are pretty much a 100% white people, many of them blond or have that beautiful light brown hair characteristic of many Ukrainians. I can just picture these blond children running through the fields and meadows in Volyn or Ivano-Frankivsk...

    It wouldn't be surprising if birth rates in W.Ukraine stabilized, that has been a trend in many former USSR countries as of late.
    , @AP
    These trends predate the war (before the war two provinces in western Ukraine has one of the highest birthrates in Europe, actually).

    Natural population growth in 2012:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#/media/File:NaturalGrowth2012.PNG

    In 2012 western Ukraine's Rivne oblast (province) had a birthrate of 15.9. This is higher than places like Brazil, Jamaica, etc. In Europe, only Ireland had a higher birthrate. Had Ukraine assimilated western Ukrainian values the country would be in good demographic shape.

    This isn't strictly a rural/urban thing wither. Sumy oblast, in the northeast, is rural but it's birthrate was only 9.7.
  170. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Aedib
    Interesting but logical. It seems logical that the western part perform better that the east of the country. The east had been hard hit by the war in Donbas and the repressive behavior of the current regime against the Russian speaking population. This, in turn forces many eastern Ukrainians to migrate to Russia. It is an irony that the behavior of the current Ukrainian government helps Russia to palliate its demographic problems. I am quite sure the Kremlim will be happy to receive Slavic migrant from Ukraine rather than turanid muslim form the central Asia “stans”. I think also that the differentiation between Littlerussians and Bigrussians doesn’t mean anything in the RF, so they migrant from Ukraine are generally welcomed.

    The demographic trends are not due to the current government, these trends have prevailed for years now. The east has been the most unstable place demographically in the world for years. It might have something to do with their habits instead. First, the East is more urban and that by definition gives you lower fertility. Second, they are probably more secular than Western Ukrainians. Third, I wouldn’t be surprised if the self-destructive behavior among males is higher in the East, along with other sorts of social instability. That depletes women’s marriage prospects. Sad. Although I just read that there’s been a little baby boom among older women in Donbas, in places such as the tragic Avdiivka, not sure if that can make any difference.

    The TFRs in Western Ukraine, on the contrary, are in some cases higher than the European averages. And these are pretty much a 100% white people, many of them blond or have that beautiful light brown hair characteristic of many Ukrainians. I can just picture these blond children running through the fields and meadows in Volyn or Ivano-Frankivsk…

    It wouldn’t be surprising if birth rates in W.Ukraine stabilized, that has been a trend in many former USSR countries as of late.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Aedib
    To AP

    I mostly agree with your conclusions. What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced. The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front. What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”). In the end, nowadays, I don’t see signs of stabilization.
    On the other hand, I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?

  171. @Kilo 4/11
    @annamaria:

    “Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?”

    Answer: Like a mafia godfather, it seems certain that an authoritarian like Putin who exercises strict control over the state apparatus, is well aware of the hits and allows them to take place rather in the manner of Henry IV who, referring to his nemesis Thomas Becket, asked “Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?”. But worse. More like the mafia requiring proof of allegiance, as in a public act of self-incrimination or a sacrifice offered to the leader.

    For example, consider the fates of Litvinenko and Nemtsov. The former, a one-time FSB officer, got into trouble for blowing the whistle on the dirty deeds of his country's domestic secret services. Litvinenko then fled to Britain in 2000 and died there in 2006 of radioactive polonium poisoning. His real first-hand knowledge of Russian dark ops derived from his access in the 1990's though he continued to make fresh allegations against the Kremlin up to his last days. He asserted that Putin had ordered the death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. He also asserted that Putin was a pedophile. In later years, his accusations grew wilder but his evidence thinner. In effect, rightly or wrongly, his revelations no longer stuck. So why would Putin bother to mount elaborate plots to eliminate Litvinenko just as his credibility ebbed?

    One theory from a Baltic intelligence official goes like this: In brief, he claimed that a one-time Georgian oligarch living in the UK, for many years virulently anti-Putin, had decided to change sides. He made overtures to the Kremlin. Officials in Putin's entourage essentially asked the oligarch to prove his bona fides. Why should they believe him? What did he have to offer? The oligarch offered Litvinenko's life. He could do so because they were friends, allied anti-Putinites living in Britain—and Litvinenko trusted him. So he set up the meeting with the killers telling Litvinenko that they had fresh information for him. The rest is public knowledge. The oligarch's name was Arkady 'Badri' Patrikatsishvili. He too died suspiciously and suddenly at his Surrey mansion soon after Litvinenko.

    The case of Boris Nemtsov's assassination also suggests that eager to please volunteers were freelancing perhaps to gain favor in the Kremlin. Nemtsov's public murder by Chechens caused an uprising in Putin’s entourage of cronies—they didn't approve of unwashed Chechens interfering in Russian affairs even to kill an opposition figure. (Putin disappeared for ten days while he settled the power struggle.) Given that the investigation into this murder, like so many others when outside freelancers offer sacrificial victims to the boss and the boss accepts the gift—nobody has yet been prosecuted for the crime—next time it could be any one of the cronies. Indeed, so indignant was Putin’s inner circle of the intrusion onto their turf that Russia's security services quickly leaked video of the shooting and even named the Chechens involved and accused Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya's strongman, of orchestrating the murder. All those indignant cronies especially those at the head of security services have since been replaced and their various agencies conglomerated under Putin's direct control. Ramzan Kadyrov remains untouched. Nemtsov and Litvinenko are just two prominent examples of this mafia-like approach to political executions within Russia and abroad. Suffice to say, the gangster ethos prevails around Putin: to trust you, the boss must have a hold over you. For that, you need to commit a crime as a kind of sacrifice to the boss—the sacrifice both of the victim and of yourself. You are never free from then on. The downside is you may ultimately need to be eliminated for knowing too much. And that might explain the sudden death of several diplomats or loyalists. Aside from Churkin, there has also been top foreign service official Andrey Malanin, who was found dead in his Athens apartment on January 9th. Churkin may have known too much about the Kremlin’s apparent meddling in the US presidential election. For his part, Malanin’s inside knowledge of Russian financial shenanigans in Greek Cyprus may have done him in. The mysterious death in November 2015 of billionaire Mikhail Lesin, former close aide to Putin, in a hotel room in Washington D.C. still remains unexplained. Rumor has it that he was talking to the FBI.

    You studiously avoided the main points of my post, like these:
    “There was a sudden death of a German journalist Udo OlfKotte who had exceptional courage to explain, authoritatively, that MSM is controlled by the CIA.
    There was also the great Michael Hastings who also talked about the possibility of being murdered for his real journalistic work: http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/03/wikileaks-reveals-cia-ability-hack-cars-assassinations/
    The MSM is num about such figures as Oleg Buzina, murdered in Ukraine for his fearless journalism.
    On the Ukrainian neo-Nazis: … there are real neo-Nazis in Ukraine, no need to invent them. You could find them, decorated with Nazi insignias, on a pictures with the representative of the State Dept Nuand-Kagan and with McCain. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hCIFAITom4
    https://politicalfilm.wordpress.com/tag/victoria-nuland/

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  172. @Kilo 4/11
    @annamaria:

    “Why would the RF government shoot a NGO-profitieering activist with a 2%-rating among the general population, and with a backdrop of the most recognized Russian place, the Moscow Kremlin wall?”

    Answer: Like a mafia godfather, it seems certain that an authoritarian like Putin who exercises strict control over the state apparatus, is well aware of the hits and allows them to take place rather in the manner of Henry IV who, referring to his nemesis Thomas Becket, asked “Who will rid me of this meddlesome priest?”. But worse. More like the mafia requiring proof of allegiance, as in a public act of self-incrimination or a sacrifice offered to the leader.

    For example, consider the fates of Litvinenko and Nemtsov. The former, a one-time FSB officer, got into trouble for blowing the whistle on the dirty deeds of his country's domestic secret services. Litvinenko then fled to Britain in 2000 and died there in 2006 of radioactive polonium poisoning. His real first-hand knowledge of Russian dark ops derived from his access in the 1990's though he continued to make fresh allegations against the Kremlin up to his last days. He asserted that Putin had ordered the death of journalist Anna Politkovskaya. He also asserted that Putin was a pedophile. In later years, his accusations grew wilder but his evidence thinner. In effect, rightly or wrongly, his revelations no longer stuck. So why would Putin bother to mount elaborate plots to eliminate Litvinenko just as his credibility ebbed?

    One theory from a Baltic intelligence official goes like this: In brief, he claimed that a one-time Georgian oligarch living in the UK, for many years virulently anti-Putin, had decided to change sides. He made overtures to the Kremlin. Officials in Putin's entourage essentially asked the oligarch to prove his bona fides. Why should they believe him? What did he have to offer? The oligarch offered Litvinenko's life. He could do so because they were friends, allied anti-Putinites living in Britain—and Litvinenko trusted him. So he set up the meeting with the killers telling Litvinenko that they had fresh information for him. The rest is public knowledge. The oligarch's name was Arkady 'Badri' Patrikatsishvili. He too died suspiciously and suddenly at his Surrey mansion soon after Litvinenko.

    The case of Boris Nemtsov's assassination also suggests that eager to please volunteers were freelancing perhaps to gain favor in the Kremlin. Nemtsov's public murder by Chechens caused an uprising in Putin’s entourage of cronies—they didn't approve of unwashed Chechens interfering in Russian affairs even to kill an opposition figure. (Putin disappeared for ten days while he settled the power struggle.) Given that the investigation into this murder, like so many others when outside freelancers offer sacrificial victims to the boss and the boss accepts the gift—nobody has yet been prosecuted for the crime—next time it could be any one of the cronies. Indeed, so indignant was Putin’s inner circle of the intrusion onto their turf that Russia's security services quickly leaked video of the shooting and even named the Chechens involved and accused Ramzan Kadyrov, Chechnya's strongman, of orchestrating the murder. All those indignant cronies especially those at the head of security services have since been replaced and their various agencies conglomerated under Putin's direct control. Ramzan Kadyrov remains untouched. Nemtsov and Litvinenko are just two prominent examples of this mafia-like approach to political executions within Russia and abroad. Suffice to say, the gangster ethos prevails around Putin: to trust you, the boss must have a hold over you. For that, you need to commit a crime as a kind of sacrifice to the boss—the sacrifice both of the victim and of yourself. You are never free from then on. The downside is you may ultimately need to be eliminated for knowing too much. And that might explain the sudden death of several diplomats or loyalists. Aside from Churkin, there has also been top foreign service official Andrey Malanin, who was found dead in his Athens apartment on January 9th. Churkin may have known too much about the Kremlin’s apparent meddling in the US presidential election. For his part, Malanin’s inside knowledge of Russian financial shenanigans in Greek Cyprus may have done him in. The mysterious death in November 2015 of billionaire Mikhail Lesin, former close aide to Putin, in a hotel room in Washington D.C. still remains unexplained. Rumor has it that he was talking to the FBI.

    More on the polonium confabulations:
    Sir Robert Owen “is engaged in a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth. These are not claims I make lightly. Throughout, Sir Robert has conducted his investigation on the basis that the integrity of the investigation by Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) into Litvinenko’s death could be taken for granted. He has done so despite the fact that claims by SO15 on crucial matters have changed with a frequency which makes those made by Orwell’s ‘Ministry of Truth’ look like models of consistency.” http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/01/david-hakkuk-on-sir-robert-owens-inquiry.html

    You need to comprehend the essence of Udo OlfKotte revelations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-28/top-german-journalist-admits-mainstream-media-completely-fake-we-all-lie-cia

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    • Replies: @Kilo 4/11
    You can find examples of Western journalists who have resigned from Russian media, too, and for a similar reason to what Ulfkotte gives, that is, Kremlin pressure to conform to the RF official line.

    That there are some unanswered questions in the Litvinenko case does not mean there was no RF involvement, directly or indirectly, through cut-outs. There are almost always inconsistencies in any high stakes assassination where there are few or no witnesses and all involved know that to talk may get one killed. And as my post above about the mafia ethos in Russia and its typical feature - a desire to please the boss by volunteering to do his dirty work makes clear, Putin often has no need to order killings, they will get done anyway. Why can't Russia stop killing its truth-tellers? You completely ignored the list of murdered Russian journos I provided.

    Uniforms notwithstanding, there are no Nazis in Ukraine, and Ukrainians who fought under German control in World War Two did so to get arms and training so as eventually to free their land from oppressors. Orders of magnitude more dangerous than a few Ukrainians trying to honor their grandfathers, the Russian state security services are and have been making life dangerous and miserable in Ukraine since independence.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Though just a bystander with nothing at stake I have long assumed that Litvinenko was murdered in London by Russians using polonium which would not be generally available to hit men. I note that you appear to dispute the version I have imbibed. What do you believe happened to Litvinenko and why?
  173. @Aedib
    Interesting but logical. It seems logical that the western part perform better that the east of the country. The east had been hard hit by the war in Donbas and the repressive behavior of the current regime against the Russian speaking population. This, in turn forces many eastern Ukrainians to migrate to Russia. It is an irony that the behavior of the current Ukrainian government helps Russia to palliate its demographic problems. I am quite sure the Kremlim will be happy to receive Slavic migrant from Ukraine rather than turanid muslim form the central Asia “stans”. I think also that the differentiation between Littlerussians and Bigrussians doesn’t mean anything in the RF, so they migrant from Ukraine are generally welcomed.

    These trends predate the war (before the war two provinces in western Ukraine has one of the highest birthrates in Europe, actually).

    Natural population growth in 2012:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Ukraine#/media/File:NaturalGrowth2012.PNG

    In 2012 western Ukraine’s Rivne oblast (province) had a birthrate of 15.9. This is higher than places like Brazil, Jamaica, etc. In Europe, only Ireland had a higher birthrate. Had Ukraine assimilated western Ukrainian values the country would be in good demographic shape.

    This isn’t strictly a rural/urban thing wither. Sumy oblast, in the northeast, is rural but it’s birthrate was only 9.7.

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  174. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    annamaria, let’s not pretend. There are and have been “neo-Nazis” pretty much in every white country (probably in non-Western ones, too, but that’s a different opera). There have been all sorts of marginal and more prominent groups both in the US and in Western Europe all these years and they are now getting close to being in power. Please, do not pretend. Russia, too, has tons of fascists, nazbols, Vlasovites, imperial supremacists, entitled and delusional Eurasianists, white nationalists, etc., of all shapes and sizes.

    Once again, I’d like to remind you of the acts of anti-Semitic vandalism that just took place in the US and were quickly forgotten, as if nothing happened. I feel sorry about the old Russian lady veteran with zelyonka that you posted (I agree, totally petty, inhumane and counterproductive) but it doesn’t mean that other countries besides Ukraine don’t have their own extremists.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Let's not pretend that the west (the US/Canada/EU) has not been practicing not just tolerance but support for neo-Nazism. Here is Canada that has been tolerating an apparent liar because she is a politically correct hack: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/09/another-russia-fake-news-red-herring/
    This person in question (a Minister of Foreign Affairs, no less) happened to be a rabid Russophobe pretending that her ancestors "escaped Russian persecution" to Canada: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/27/a-nazi-skeleton-in-the-family-closet/ "Former journalist Freeland chose to whitewash her family history to leave out her grandfather’s service to Adolf Hitler."
    Canada is a home to a large community of progeny of banderites and neo-Nazis, who continue practicing the ideology of Nazism. But this seemingly does not bother a Canadian Jewish community at all. In the US, it was a Jewish clan of Kagans (to which the infamous Nuland-Kagan belongs), which has been cheerleading for the "democracy on the march" (regime change) in Ukraine, even if the march includes the activists covered with Nazi insignia. Babi Yar anybody?
    There is an institutionalized, systematic support for neo-Nazi led by the US warriors for hegemony. The warriors include the significant numbers of ziocons, and Ukraine is a glaring example of the ziocons' tolerance for neo-Nazism. See the happy pictures of Nuland-Kagan in a company of the leading Ukrainian neo-Nazis. See also the admiring articles by MSM about the criminal Kolomojsky, a financier of neo-Nazi formations. Is not is amazing that Mr. Kolomojsky is also a citizen of Israel and an acknowledged leader of Ukrainian Jewish community? "Kolomoyski is the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine. In 2010 he was appointed as the president of the European Council of Jewish Communities after promising the outgoing president he would donate $14 million..." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi
    Neither ADL no the Lobby at large have any problems with the US/Canada cooperation with neo-Nazis. "As if nothing happening" indeed.
    , @annamaria
    "Fascist Formations in Ukraine:" http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/03/13/fascist-formations-in-ukraine/
  175. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Another thing I’d like to add regarding Ukrainian TFRs is the age of the mother (when having the first child). In the West and especially in southern Europe that age is now pushing 30. I bet in Western Ukraine that number is still around 25. That can make a difference in the long run.

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  176. The idea that the Russian government killed Mr Litvinenko (a completely deranged, grotesque clown), using radioactive material produced only in Russia and leaving radioactive trace every step of the way, is beyond ridiculous.

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  177. @Anonymous
    The demographic trends are not due to the current government, these trends have prevailed for years now. The east has been the most unstable place demographically in the world for years. It might have something to do with their habits instead. First, the East is more urban and that by definition gives you lower fertility. Second, they are probably more secular than Western Ukrainians. Third, I wouldn't be surprised if the self-destructive behavior among males is higher in the East, along with other sorts of social instability. That depletes women's marriage prospects. Sad. Although I just read that there's been a little baby boom among older women in Donbas, in places such as the tragic Avdiivka, not sure if that can make any difference.

    The TFRs in Western Ukraine, on the contrary, are in some cases higher than the European averages. And these are pretty much a 100% white people, many of them blond or have that beautiful light brown hair characteristic of many Ukrainians. I can just picture these blond children running through the fields and meadows in Volyn or Ivano-Frankivsk...

    It wouldn't be surprising if birth rates in W.Ukraine stabilized, that has been a trend in many former USSR countries as of late.

    To AP

    I mostly agree with your conclusions. What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced. The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front. What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”). In the end, nowadays, I don’t see signs of stabilization.
    On the other hand, I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?

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    • Replies: @AP

    What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced.
     
    Trends were certainly exacerbated by the war, but the war is not the current regime's fault (arguably it can deserve some of the blame but not most of it). There isn't a war raging everywhere in eastern Ukraine, only in those areas with armed Russian activists who receive tons of weapons and a stream of volunteers from Russia (while the Ukrainian government's insistence that there are thousands of active Russian troops is most likely BS, there is little doubt that there are many Russian veteran volunteers, military advisers, etc.). This keeps the war going.

    The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front
     
    Those green areas in Novorossiya territory aren't "real" because in those regions the data are very very incomplete. One of the Donbas green areas (Dovzhanki raion) shows 12 births and 6 deaths, for example. It shows up green on the map but is obviously not a valid number.

    In contrast, the picture in the rest of the country is complete. Volnovasky rayon (county), in Donbas territory controlled by the government, shows 677 births and 1786 deaths. A random western one, Yavorivsky rayon, has 1680 births and 1380 deaths.


    What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”)

     

    Poltava is not as "dark" as Sumy as the northeastern and Donbas regions. In Poltava there were 1.5 deaths for every birth; in the Northeast and Donbas regions there were 2.5 - 4 deaths for every birth. This trend preceded the war. Since independence, for whatever reason, the two demographic black holes have been the Donbas and the Northeast, with the West and Kiev City (probably because all the young people moving there) maintaining stability or even slight growth, and the central parts showing steady and bad, but not catastrophic as in Donbas and Northeast, decline.

    So in Ukraine there have been large regions with stability. Western Ukraine has about the same population as Belarus. But the country as a whole has not been stable (or unstable).

    If someone was really concerned about Ukraine's population decline, they would hope that the country's West would culturally assimilate all of Ukraine. Bu may of the pro-Russian ones here instead have been for rooting for Donbas to win and to spread its toxic culture everywhere.


    I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?
     
    The purest "Slavs" are, in no particular order, Poles, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Russians. But purity doesn't exist, all of them have mixed with various non-Slavs.

    Russians mixed with Finnic people and slightly (about 1%) with Asians; Belarussians mixed with Baltics peoples; Poles mixed with Germans and Baltics peoples; Ukrainians mixed with Germanic peoples and Balkan peoples (Romania is next door) and slightly with Turkic ones. The purest Slavs might be people from the swampland on the Ukrainian-Belarussian border, west of Chernobyl,which was supposed to be the original homeland of the Slavs. Within Ukraine this is the region with the highest birthrate.

    , @Anonymous
    My point was not to "associate blondness with Slavic people", and obviously Ukrainians are a different phenotype from the Finnic, Baltic and N.Western Russian type (who are lighter than most Europeans anyway). I am not a Slav myself, but was just pointing out, from personal observations, that many Ukrainians tend to be light haired and that many Ukrainians have a distinct, non-Finnic, yet relatively light look - a long, symmetric face and light brown hair. Including in Donetsk. Many of them are brunettes, too, with quite attractive, symmetric features and this is the look that distinguishes them from N.Western Russians and Belarussians maybe. They are also tall and skinny, generally quality people with potential, that's all I was saying, this isn't the Apricity forum. There is no typical Slav, because it is a huge group that includes many phenotypes.
  178. @Anonymous
    annamaria, let's not pretend. There are and have been "neo-Nazis" pretty much in every white country (probably in non-Western ones, too, but that's a different opera). There have been all sorts of marginal and more prominent groups both in the US and in Western Europe all these years and they are now getting close to being in power. Please, do not pretend. Russia, too, has tons of fascists, nazbols, Vlasovites, imperial supremacists, entitled and delusional Eurasianists, white nationalists, etc., of all shapes and sizes.

    Once again, I'd like to remind you of the acts of anti-Semitic vandalism that just took place in the US and were quickly forgotten, as if nothing happened. I feel sorry about the old Russian lady veteran with zelyonka that you posted (I agree, totally petty, inhumane and counterproductive) but it doesn't mean that other countries besides Ukraine don't have their own extremists.

    Let’s not pretend that the west (the US/Canada/EU) has not been practicing not just tolerance but support for neo-Nazism. Here is Canada that has been tolerating an apparent liar because she is a politically correct hack: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/03/09/another-russia-fake-news-red-herring/
    This person in question (a Minister of Foreign Affairs, no less) happened to be a rabid Russophobe pretending that her ancestors “escaped Russian persecution” to Canada: https://consortiumnews.com/2017/02/27/a-nazi-skeleton-in-the-family-closet/ “Former journalist Freeland chose to whitewash her family history to leave out her grandfather’s service to Adolf Hitler.”
    Canada is a home to a large community of progeny of banderites and neo-Nazis, who continue practicing the ideology of Nazism. But this seemingly does not bother a Canadian Jewish community at all. In the US, it was a Jewish clan of Kagans (to which the infamous Nuland-Kagan belongs), which has been cheerleading for the “democracy on the march” (regime change) in Ukraine, even if the march includes the activists covered with Nazi insignia. Babi Yar anybody?
    There is an institutionalized, systematic support for neo-Nazi led by the US warriors for hegemony. The warriors include the significant numbers of ziocons, and Ukraine is a glaring example of the ziocons’ tolerance for neo-Nazism. See the happy pictures of Nuland-Kagan in a company of the leading Ukrainian neo-Nazis. See also the admiring articles by MSM about the criminal Kolomojsky, a financier of neo-Nazi formations. Is not is amazing that Mr. Kolomojsky is also a citizen of Israel and an acknowledged leader of Ukrainian Jewish community? “Kolomoyski is the president of the United Jewish Community of Ukraine. In 2010 he was appointed as the president of the European Council of Jewish Communities after promising the outgoing president he would donate $14 million…” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi
    Neither ADL no the Lobby at large have any problems with the US/Canada cooperation with neo-Nazis. “As if nothing happening” indeed.

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  179. @Anonymous
    annamaria, let's not pretend. There are and have been "neo-Nazis" pretty much in every white country (probably in non-Western ones, too, but that's a different opera). There have been all sorts of marginal and more prominent groups both in the US and in Western Europe all these years and they are now getting close to being in power. Please, do not pretend. Russia, too, has tons of fascists, nazbols, Vlasovites, imperial supremacists, entitled and delusional Eurasianists, white nationalists, etc., of all shapes and sizes.

    Once again, I'd like to remind you of the acts of anti-Semitic vandalism that just took place in the US and were quickly forgotten, as if nothing happened. I feel sorry about the old Russian lady veteran with zelyonka that you posted (I agree, totally petty, inhumane and counterproductive) but it doesn't mean that other countries besides Ukraine don't have their own extremists.
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  180. @Aedib
    To AP

    I mostly agree with your conclusions. What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced. The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front. What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”). In the end, nowadays, I don’t see signs of stabilization.
    On the other hand, I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?

    What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced.

    Trends were certainly exacerbated by the war, but the war is not the current regime’s fault (arguably it can deserve some of the blame but not most of it). There isn’t a war raging everywhere in eastern Ukraine, only in those areas with armed Russian activists who receive tons of weapons and a stream of volunteers from Russia (while the Ukrainian government’s insistence that there are thousands of active Russian troops is most likely BS, there is little doubt that there are many Russian veteran volunteers, military advisers, etc.). This keeps the war going.

    The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front

    Those green areas in Novorossiya territory aren’t “real” because in those regions the data are very very incomplete. One of the Donbas green areas (Dovzhanki raion) shows 12 births and 6 deaths, for example. It shows up green on the map but is obviously not a valid number.

    In contrast, the picture in the rest of the country is complete. Volnovasky rayon (county), in Donbas territory controlled by the government, shows 677 births and 1786 deaths. A random western one, Yavorivsky rayon, has 1680 births and 1380 deaths.

    What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”)

    Poltava is not as “dark” as Sumy as the northeastern and Donbas regions. In Poltava there were 1.5 deaths for every birth; in the Northeast and Donbas regions there were 2.5 – 4 deaths for every birth. This trend preceded the war. Since independence, for whatever reason, the two demographic black holes have been the Donbas and the Northeast, with the West and Kiev City (probably because all the young people moving there) maintaining stability or even slight growth, and the central parts showing steady and bad, but not catastrophic as in Donbas and Northeast, decline.

    So in Ukraine there have been large regions with stability. Western Ukraine has about the same population as Belarus. But the country as a whole has not been stable (or unstable).

    If someone was really concerned about Ukraine’s population decline, they would hope that the country’s West would culturally assimilate all of Ukraine. Bu may of the pro-Russian ones here instead have been for rooting for Donbas to win and to spread its toxic culture everywhere.

    I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?

    The purest “Slavs” are, in no particular order, Poles, Ukrainians, Belarussians and Russians. But purity doesn’t exist, all of them have mixed with various non-Slavs.

    Russians mixed with Finnic people and slightly (about 1%) with Asians; Belarussians mixed with Baltics peoples; Poles mixed with Germans and Baltics peoples; Ukrainians mixed with Germanic peoples and Balkan peoples (Romania is next door) and slightly with Turkic ones. The purest Slavs might be people from the swampland on the Ukrainian-Belarussian border, west of Chernobyl,which was supposed to be the original homeland of the Slavs. Within Ukraine this is the region with the highest birthrate.

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  181. @AP

    [About Kiev] I wouldn’t call a town of 5-10 thousand (see the maps above) “bustling”. Moscow was close to 150-200 thousand in the same period. Having a Christian madrasa also is nothing special. We must remember in what context they were being created. Catholics were in advance. The Orthodox faith was being shattered, population hardly knew their creed, so to prevent the further deterioration of the faith and the imminent Union, the Orthodox clerics and nobility were opening religious schools to teach and defend their Orthodox faith from Jesuits.
     
    Population varied from 15,000 to 10,000. In context, Warsaw, Poland's capital, had around 30,000 people and Krakow around 25,000 in the 17th century. These were the main cities of what was at the time a world power. Other cities - Edinburgh had 8,000 people in 1592, Berlin 17,500 in 1685, etc.

    What you call a "Madrasa" was recognized as an Academy in 1658 (having previously been a Collegium), enjoying similar status to Krakow Academy (now Jagiellonian University).

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church. It produced the Russian Empire's first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.

    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals?

    In context,

    The context was noble Kiev vs loathsome Tataro-Moscow, not Kiev and Edinburgh.

    What you call a “Madrasa” was recognized as an Academy in 1658

    Do you know what madrasa means?

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church.

    As expected a madrasa produced religious leaders, that is parasites.

    It produced the Russian Empire’s first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.

    Yes, it became useful when barbarous Moskals and their tyrannic khan had converted a madrasa to a true European university.

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    • Replies: @AP

    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals...Do not pretend such an experienced propaganda bot like yourself does not know that meme.?
     
    Why your paranoia?
  182. @AP

    in two books written by Ukrainian propagandists
     
    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.

    For your information, Russia “took over” Chernigov in 1503.
     
    Briefly. But later:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chernihiv_Voivodeship

    Or you are another “daughter of a Crimean officer” from Maryland, aren’t you?
     
    I am curious about what this refers to.

    Published by a Western academic press with a bibliographic reference to the original.

    So you for sure can provide us with the original. Of course, in case you really read those books and not copy-paste the text from your propaganda manual.

    Briefly. But later:

    Yes, 1618-1503=115 vs 1667-1618=49. Nationalistic maths can beat anything.

    I am curious about what this refers to.

    Do not pretend such an experienced propaganda bot like yourself does not know that meme.

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  183. @Darin

    And yes, Gascogne was 99% Gascon-speaking before .. wait, Gascogne is still France and Gascons are French. Happy them they knew no Lenin with his national policy.
     
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurrection_of_31_May_%E2%80%93_2_June_1793

    Had Girondins (federalists) prevailed over Montagnards (centralists), where is now France could be today about dozen of nations, all hating each other and the "Parisians". But history went the other way, and France was made French with fire, sword and wooden shoe.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergonha

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering. You are a phoney fake propaganda bot. Ukrainians are all fake.
     
    All nations and languages bigger than small village are "fake" in your term, or "socially constructed" in academic speak.

    All nations and languages bigger than small village are “fake” in your term, or “socially constructed” in academic speak.

    You’ve no idea how Ukraine and Belarus were created.

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    • Replies: @Darin

    You’ve no idea how Ukraine and Belarus were created.
     
    Same way as Russia was created, only with AK, tanks and artillery instead of swords , axes and bows.
  184. @AP

    Lexical differences between European languages:

    Yes, phoney diagram made by a Ukrainian science freak Tischenko. It has been wandering around the internet for long. Redrawing it pretty does not make this fake any plausible.
     
    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    http://georgetownuniversitypress.tumblr.com/post/75152858606/be-sure-to-check-out-this-great-chart-created

    Anyone familiar with Polish, Russian and Ukrainian knows this to be true. Ukrainian has more words in common with Polish than it does with Russian. Take even basic words - yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 "tato" in Polish and Ukrainian, "papa" in Russian.

    The most Sovok people are West Ukrainians. Even if they do not want to admit that. Language does not matter for the Sovok mentality.
     
    Apparently, in your world, neither does time spent under Soviet rule, nor loyalty to the Soviet state.

    Your other “arguments” are even not worth answering.
     
    You can't even.

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    Do not appeal to authority. You have zero expertise in the matter. Tishchenko is a pseudo-science freak, period. His book is anti-scientific rubbish. His diagram has no scientific base. It’s a fake.

    Take even basic words – yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 “tato” in Polish and Ukrainian, “papa” in Russian.

    Yes, after several centuries of the Polish-Ukrainian “friendship” no wonder. But you still have no idea how the science of linguistics works

    You can’t even.

    Said a propaganda bot who copy-pastes answers and disseminates fakes. You are not worth much effort.

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    • Replies: @AP

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    Do not appeal to authority. You have zero expertise in the matter. Tishchenko is a pseudo-science freak, period. His book is anti-scientific rubbish. His diagram has no scientific base. It’s a fake.
     
    Georgetown U is a higher authority than is random internet commenter "Boris N."

    He's cited in peer-reviewed works such as this one:

    http://vanhise.lss.wisc.edu/ling/sites/vanhise.lss.wisc.edu.ling/files/LSOWPL8_Kent_1.pdf

    Thank you for confirming your lack of credibility on these matters.
  185. @Sergey Krieger
    Could you educate us on what you consider Sovok mentality?

    Simply what has happened in Ukraine. Euromaidan ideology is very Sovok, it could have happened only with a people of Sovok mentality. They just substituted the EU fairyland for communism, the essence remained the same. Euromaidanists wanted communism, that is everything for nothing.

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    • Replies: @AP
    You are wrong, perhaps because you come from generations of Sovoks yourself and are incapable of seeing beyond yourself. You demonstrated your Sovok values with this statement you wrote: "As expected a madrasa produced religious leaders, that is parasites."

    This is a good idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

    Russian version is similar:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Soveticus

    Sovoks wouldn't have rebelled against the government, they would have acquiesced and submitted, while at most quietly taking part in some corruption schemes and getting drunk. Sovok mentality was Donbas people following their Party of Regions as it stole from them, and then quietly letting some marginal pro-Russian activists and foreign adventurers take over their lands and bring war to them.
  186. @Boris N

    All nations and languages bigger than small village are “fake” in your term, or “socially constructed” in academic speak.
     
    You've no idea how Ukraine and Belarus were created.

    You’ve no idea how Ukraine and Belarus were created.

    Same way as Russia was created, only with AK, tanks and artillery instead of swords , axes and bows.

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  187. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Aedib
    To AP

    I mostly agree with your conclusions. What I mean is that the current regime exacerbated the trends that you referenced. The map you provided about 2015 is quite interesting: green lights can be seen in Galicia next to the border with Poland and in the Donbas area next to the border with Russia (that’s really strange because of the ongoing conflict there). I mean not in Donbas cities but on places far from the front. What is more worrying about all maps is that dark red lights can be consistently seen in areas like Sumy and Poltava (the cradle of Little Russia aka the “real Ukraine”). In the end, nowadays, I don’t see signs of stabilization.
    On the other hand, I will not associate blondness to “pure Slavic” people. There is a higher blond percentage on Norwest Russia than in other parts of the Slavic world but this phenotype seems to be associated to the Finnic and Baltid genetic pool present there. E.g., Putin shows some Finnic phenotypic traits. What’s you example of a ‘pure’ Slavic person?

    My point was not to “associate blondness with Slavic people”, and obviously Ukrainians are a different phenotype from the Finnic, Baltic and N.Western Russian type (who are lighter than most Europeans anyway). I am not a Slav myself, but was just pointing out, from personal observations, that many Ukrainians tend to be light haired and that many Ukrainians have a distinct, non-Finnic, yet relatively light look – a long, symmetric face and light brown hair. Including in Donetsk. Many of them are brunettes, too, with quite attractive, symmetric features and this is the look that distinguishes them from N.Western Russians and Belarussians maybe. They are also tall and skinny, generally quality people with potential, that’s all I was saying, this isn’t the Apricity forum. There is no typical Slav, because it is a huge group that includes many phenotypes.

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  188. @Boris N
    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals?

    In context,
     
    The context was noble Kiev vs loathsome Tataro-Moscow, not Kiev and Edinburgh.

    What you call a “Madrasa” was recognized as an Academy in 1658
     
    Do you know what madrasa means?

    It produced several heads of the Russian Orthodox Church.
     
    As expected a madrasa produced religious leaders, that is parasites.

    It produced the Russian Empire’s first recognized composer, Berezovsky. Lomonosov came to study there.
     
    Yes, it became useful when barbarous Moskals and their tyrannic khan had converted a madrasa to a true European university.

    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals…Do not pretend such an experienced propaganda bot like yourself does not know that meme.?

    Why your paranoia?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N
    Sorry, I do need silly diagnoses from Ukrainian propaganda bots. Try something else from your propaganda toolbox.
  189. @Boris N
    Simply what has happened in Ukraine. Euromaidan ideology is very Sovok, it could have happened only with a people of Sovok mentality. They just substituted the EU fairyland for communism, the essence remained the same. Euromaidanists wanted communism, that is everything for nothing.

    You are wrong, perhaps because you come from generations of Sovoks yourself and are incapable of seeing beyond yourself. You demonstrated your Sovok values with this statement you wrote: “As expected a madrasa produced religious leaders, that is parasites.”

    This is a good idea:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Sovieticus

    Russian version is similar:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_Soveticus

    Sovoks wouldn’t have rebelled against the government, they would have acquiesced and submitted, while at most quietly taking part in some corruption schemes and getting drunk. Sovok mentality was Donbas people following their Party of Regions as it stole from them, and then quietly letting some marginal pro-Russian activists and foreign adventurers take over their lands and bring war to them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Boris N
    Yes, your last resort is to employ "no, it's you" fallacy. How childish, how Sovok, and how Ukrainian. Ukrainians are well-known to project their problems and mental anxieties on Russians. And you again appeal to authority like Wikipedia. Aren't you pathetically funny?
  190. @Boris N

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?
     
    Do not appeal to authority. You have zero expertise in the matter. Tishchenko is a pseudo-science freak, period. His book is anti-scientific rubbish. His diagram has no scientific base. It's a fake.

    Take even basic words – yes and no. Identical in Ukrainian and Polish (tak and ni/nie) vs. da and nyet. Dad 0 “tato” in Polish and Ukrainian, “papa” in Russian.
     
    Yes, after several centuries of the Polish-Ukrainian "friendship" no wonder. But you still have no idea how the science of linguistics works

    You can’t even.
     
    Said a propaganda bot who copy-pastes answers and disseminates fakes. You are not worth much effort.

    Good enough for Georgetown University, not good enough for you?

    Do not appeal to authority. You have zero expertise in the matter. Tishchenko is a pseudo-science freak, period. His book is anti-scientific rubbish. His diagram has no scientific base. It’s a fake.

    Georgetown U is a higher authority than is random internet commenter “Boris N.”

    He’s cited in peer-reviewed works such as this one:

    http://vanhise.lss.wisc.edu/ling/sites/vanhise.lss.wisc.edu.ling/files/LSOWPL8_Kent_1.pdf

    Thank you for confirming your lack of credibility on these matters.

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    • Replies: @Boris N
    Yes, some Ukrainian wife who's ended up teaching Slavistics in some random US university. No wonder that she knows no better than to cite Tyshshenko. He even might have been her teacher, who knows.

    Georgetown U is a higher authority than is random internet commenter “Boris N.”
    Thank you for confirming your lack of credibility on these matters.
     
    Even much less of that has got some random Ukrainian propaganda bot, without even name but only initials, and who only knows how to copy-paste and appeal to higher authorities. Unlike me, you indeed have zero knowledge on the subject, because you cannot separate the sheep from the goats and you can only rely on others. I really do not need an assessment of my expertise from a joke like you. I do not need to appeal to tumblr or a workpaper of some little-known wife to understand who is Tyshchenko. I bet you even have no idea who is Tyshshenko and why I call him a science freak. You are a joke.
  191. @annamaria
    More on the polonium confabulations:
    Sir Robert Owen "is engaged in a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth. These are not claims I make lightly. Throughout, Sir Robert has conducted his investigation on the basis that the integrity of the investigation by Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) into Litvinenko's death could be taken for granted. He has done so despite the fact that claims by SO15 on crucial matters have changed with a frequency which makes those made by Orwell's 'Ministry of Truth' look like models of consistency." http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/01/david-hakkuk-on-sir-robert-owens-inquiry.html

    You need to comprehend the essence of Udo OlfKotte revelations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-28/top-german-journalist-admits-mainstream-media-completely-fake-we-all-lie-cia

    You can find examples of Western journalists who have resigned from Russian media, too, and for a similar reason to what Ulfkotte gives, that is, Kremlin pressure to conform to the RF official line.

    That there are some unanswered questions in the Litvinenko case does not mean there was no RF involvement, directly or indirectly, through cut-outs. There are almost always inconsistencies in any high stakes assassination where there are few or no witnesses and all involved know that to talk may get one killed. And as my post above about the mafia ethos in Russia and its typical feature – a desire to please the boss by volunteering to do his dirty work makes clear, Putin often has no need to order killings, they will get done anyway. Why can’t Russia stop killing its truth-tellers? You completely ignored the list of murdered Russian journos I provided.

    Uniforms notwithstanding, there are no Nazis in Ukraine, and Ukrainians who fought under German control in World War Two did so to get arms and training so as eventually to free their land from oppressors. Orders of magnitude more dangerous than a few Ukrainians trying to honor their grandfathers, the Russian state security services are and have been making life dangerous and miserable in Ukraine since independence.

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  192. @Daniel Chieh
    Dude, just stop it already.

    Yes, let us treat codoh newspaper 6 million meme dude with more respect, by all means.

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  193. @Wizard of Oz
    Well I don't think you are stupid in the sense of lacking even modest cognitive ability. But the question arises why you should allow yourself to be seen as so obviously careless. Perhaps that is at least as often the form stupidity takes if someone is blind or arrogant enough to suppose that others won't see it. Then again malice could explain it: free wheeling malice or maybe for some reason I haven't grasped focused on this anonymous Australian.

    Can you not see how careless, at best, it makes you look that you jump in to a conversation others were having on the side to make abusive and, above all, obviously foolish, comments directed at me? Anyone can see that I was actually complimenting people for their adding relevant information prompted by my "debating point" not referring to them as "Russian chauvinists", and on their civility in doing so, in contrast to your gratuitous incivility.

    Anyone not under the influence of mind altering substances or pathological malice, or seized by distressing sense of inadequacy, would read my reference to " young [sic, NB] Russian chauvinists" as emphasising my goodwill to the other commenters by making an essentially amiable joke about young enthusiasts who have still much to learn - clearly in contrast to the helpful commenters!

    We are sorry ,,almighty” Obi Wan Kenobi , that we have misunderstood your comments and took them for crap , what is what they are , by the way!

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Very sad if you are a Kiza alter ego (if you aren't I hope he will disavow you because sometimes he writes as if he cares about being taken seriously).

    Having never noticed your moniker before I searched and found 14 comments amounting to only 200 words and every one was just brief crude insult.

    So, who is "we"? Would the perpetrator please think again and retire "voicum" and its uncivil voice.
  194. @voicum
    We are sorry ,,almighty" Obi Wan Kenobi , that we have misunderstood your comments and took them for crap , what is what they are , by the way!

    Very sad if you are a Kiza alter ego (if you aren’t I hope he will disavow you because sometimes he writes as if he cares about being taken seriously).

    Having never noticed your moniker before I searched and found 14 comments amounting to only 200 words and every one was just brief crude insult.

    So, who is “we”? Would the perpetrator please think again and retire “voicum” and its uncivil voice.

    Read More
  195. @annamaria
    More on the polonium confabulations:
    Sir Robert Owen "is engaged in a deliberate attempt to cover up the truth. These are not claims I make lightly. Throughout, Sir Robert has conducted his investigation on the basis that the integrity of the investigation by Counter Terrorism Command (SO15) into Litvinenko's death could be taken for granted. He has done so despite the fact that claims by SO15 on crucial matters have changed with a frequency which makes those made by Orwell's 'Ministry of Truth' look like models of consistency." http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/01/david-hakkuk-on-sir-robert-owens-inquiry.html

    You need to comprehend the essence of Udo OlfKotte revelations. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-03-28/top-german-journalist-admits-mainstream-media-completely-fake-we-all-lie-cia

    Though just a bystander with nothing at stake I have long assumed that Litvinenko was murdered in London by Russians using polonium which would not be generally available to hit men. I note that you appear to dispute the version I have imbibed. What do you believe happened to Litvinenko and why?

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  196. @AP

    So if I understand you right you feel proud of things which happened 500 years ago and with which you have nothing to do and this way you feel yourself superior over barbarous Moskals...Do not pretend such an experienced propaganda bot like yourself does not know that meme.?
     
    Why your paranoia?

    Sorry, I do need silly diagnoses from Ukrainian propaganda bots. Try something else from your propaganda toolbox.

    Read More