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S-300s and Other Military Hardware for Syria
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This week Russian officials declared that the delivery of S-300s for Syria was completed and that this first batch included 49 pieces of “military equipment”, including radars, control vehicles and four launchers. Russian officials added that, if needed, this figure could be increased to 8-12 launchers. Defense Minister Shoigu added that “the measures we will take will be devoted to ensure 100 percent safety and security of our men in Syria, and we will do this”. This leaves a lot of unanswered questions.

First, it is still unclear which version of the S-300 was delivered to Syria. Some sources say that this might be the S-300PMU2, others mention the S-300VM while, yet other sources speculate that this might be an S-300V4 or its export version the Antey-2500. I will spare you the technical details (those interested can look at the pretty detailed Wikipedia entry here), but it should be noted that until the specific version of the S-300 becomes known it will be very hard to assess the potential impact of this delivery. The original S-300s are by now maybe not obsolete, but most definitely not the bleeding edge of air defense technologies. (The first S-300s entered service with the Soviet military in the late seventies!). But the newest version of the S-300s are very close in capabilities to the S-400 system and thus rank among the most capable air defense systems ever built. For example, a lot has been made from the fact that the Israelis have had many years to study the S-300s delivered to Greece, but what is often overlooked is that the version delivered to Cyprus and which was later re-deployed to Greece was the (relatively outdated) S-300PMU-1. The probability that the Russians would deliver this version to the Syrians is close to zero. However, when I think of Israeli Defense Minister (and bona fide nutcase) Lieberman declaring that “one thing needs to be clear: If someone shoots at our planes, we will destroy them. It doesn’t matter if it’s an S-300 or an S-700” he probably was told by the Israeli military analysts that the S-300 is not that formidable a weapon and missed the fact that they were referring to the older version and not the kind of kit the Russians would be using nowadays.

What is sure is that just four launchers are not very many, but are enough to protect any one specific part of Syria. They will also increase the overall number of Russian/Syrian air defense missiles thus helping to achieve the officially stated goal of ensuring “the 100 percent safety” of the Russian forces in Syria. However, this is certainly not enough to create a complete no-fly zone over the entire country, at least not against a large scale attack.

Still, the Russians already have S-300s (and even S-400) in Syria and 4 more launchers do provide them with some additional firepower, but not any new capabilities. I think the most likely explanation is that the S-300s delivered to the Syrians will protect a few important strategic Syrian targets (Damascus?) while, at the same time, adding firepower to the (rather small) Russian task force in Syria. As for the statement that an additional 4-8 launchers could be delivered, that is both a sign that the Russians want to keep their options open while, at the same time, creating a deliberate ambiguity about how much firepower they actually possess at any one given moment in time.

Second, I will repeat what I said before: S-300s are not what the Syrians need most. In terms of anti-air missiles, what they need most are higher numbers of Pantsirs-S1/2 mobile medium to short range air defense systems. Not only are the Pantsirs ideal to protect against cruise missile strikes, they can also protect the S-300s, which will become a critical issue if the Israelis decide to try to destroy them (which they threatened to do in the past).

What S-300s primarily add to the Syrian capabilities is not so much the ability to intercept more missiles, but the ability to track and engage AWACS and other battle management and reconnaissance aircraft at very long ranges. In theory, an S-300V4 could make it impossible for the Israelis to put up an AWACS at any useful range. The AWACS would either have to remain too far to be of use, or take the huge risk of being shot down by a high speed and very maneuverable missile (S-300V4 missiles have a flight envelope of 400 km at Mach 7.5 or of 350 km at Mach 9!). If the Israelis conclude that the Syrians now have S-300V4′s, they will have to dramatically decrease their air operations in Syria and will switch to tactical (ground to ground) ballistic missiles and long range artillery systems. More S-300s also improve the overall radar coverage and will close some gaps created by the Syrian mountain ranges.

ORDER IT NOW

Third, it remains equally unclear, perhaps deliberately, which electronic warfare systems Russia has deployed (or will deploy) in Syria and in what numbers. Possible candidates include the Zhitel R-330Zh electronic intelligence and jamming system, the Borisoglebsk-2 RB-301B electronic warfare weapon system and the Krasukha-4 jamming system. As for the automated command and control system which might be deployed to Syria, my guess is that the Polyana D4M1 would be a prime candidate. Whatever the actual mix will be in the end, I would argue that this presents a more formidable capability than additional S-300 launchers. Sure, this is apples and oranges, but we have to keep in mind that these electronic warfare systems are extremely powerful force-multipliers which can dramatically increase both the Russian and the Syrian defensive capabilities by jamming GPS signals, datalinks, cellphone signals (used for targeting and intelligence), radars, by creating false targets and even by destroying electronics. Electronic warfare is one field in which the Israelis have always enjoyed a huge superiority over their Arab victims and the fact that this has now changed is an extremely distressing development for them, even if they will never admit it.

As predicted, the Israelis have declared themselves both superior and invulnerable so they will continue their policy of (completely illegal) aggression against Syria. They have several options here: the Israelis might decide to stick to basically symbolic attacks against unprotected targets and declare each time that they have destroyed a huge depot of Hezbollah missiles or a Syrian chemical weapons plant. That would greatly help to bolster Netanyahu’s “patriotic” credentials while keeping the real action at a purely symbolic level. The second option would be to use ballistic missiles and long range artillery and strike some real targets. Finally, the Israelis could try to launch a complex and large air attack on the Syrian air defense systems in an attempt to show that S-300s are no big deal for them. The option of using ballistic missiles is probably the most likely one (and if the Syrians don’t keep their S-300s fairly close to each other (so they can protect each other), the Israelis might also be able to destroy them). That is a rather risky plan since, if successful, it would just result in more air defense system deliveries from Russia. This is something the USA might strenuously object to since every time the Russians deliver military hardware to the Syrians to protect them against the Israelis, they also improve the Syrian capability to defend their country against US/NATO/CENTCOM attacks (the delivery of S-300s to the Syrians is just as much a disaster for the USA as it is for Israel so I imagine that the US commanders are rather angry with the Israelis for creating this situation).

It is important to keep in mind that while the S-300s are certainly formidable air defense systems, they are not a Wunderwaffe which could, by itself, prevent the Israelis from attacking Syria. The latest delivery of military hardware from Russia will definitely mark a sharp increase in the Syrian (and Russian) defense capabilities, but if the Israelis are determined to continue striking Syria, the Russians will have to deliver even more systems.

Speaking of the Israelis, their big delegation which traveled to Moscow apparently only succeeded in further irritating the Russians. I had speculated that they might present some kind of exculpatory evidence but I was wrong: apparently, they had nothing to say besides “Iran is bad” and “Syria is responsible”. This is what caused the Russians to show a record of the radar data of the Russian S-400 in Syria to prove that every words of the Israelis were lies, lies and more lies.

I see that as yet another proof of the absolutely amazing combination of gross incompetence and breathtaking arrogance of the Israelis. The way they conducted their entire attack is already a testimony of their gross lack of professionalism, and they only added insult to injury when they showed up in Moscow and looked the Russians straight in the eyes and lied about everything (even though they must have known that Russians had it all recorded second by second). When Putin spoke of a “chain of tragic circumstances” he was very politely trying to give them an out as long as they apologized and compensated the Russians, but to the Israeli Herrenvolk that would have been totally unacceptable. They did what they always do: they doubled down and accused all their critics of antisemitism. What else is new?

In conclusion I will say that, while I might very well be wrong, I still don’t believe that the Israelis had some sophisticated plan to achieve some still to be determined goal. During the past year the Israelis informed the Russians about their planned airstrikes in Syria via their deconfliction line only in 10% of the cases. For the remaining 90% they did not even bother, in spite of having promised to do so in their agreement with Russia. In sharp contrast, the Russians always informed the Israelis of their operations, as did the Americans towards the Russians. But the Israelis simply think that they don’t have to abide by any kind of norms of behavior. That kind of contempt for agreements (and for non-Jews in general) is typical of the Israeli mindset and it will eventually bring the downfall of the last openly racist regime on the planet.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel, Russia, Syria 
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  1. Liam says:

    Thank you for your very reasoned explanation of the current Syrian Russian and Israeli status. Your calm and careful analysis is very much appreciated

    • Replies: @Moi
  2. Zebraptor says:

    Apparently, in this particular situation it does not matter which of the modifications of the S-300 delivered to Syria. It was said that these S-300s will be connected to the Russian integrated air defense system, including S-400, AWACS, Navy ships, orbital systems, UAVs, and what else.

    What matters is what missiles they will be equipped with and how they will be used, and this depends on the goals and objectives pursued by Russia by their deployment. For example, these systems can be equipped with lighter ‘fire-and-forget’ medium-range missiles (9m96 type), capable of independently search and select a target, effective in the tasks of repelling strikes by missiles of the Tomahawk type at long distances up to 150 km (in such equipment, the ammunition of the launcher is increased by 4 times, i.e. 16 lighter medium-range missiles instead of 4 heavy long-range), in contrast to the short-range systems of the “Panzir” type. Why this is quite possible? It’s unlikely that Russia intends to destroy US or Israeli air carriers by means of the Syrian S-300 with resulting unpredictable escalation, but the task of repelling possible missile attacks by the US and Israel remains relevant.

    Here it is difficult to say what specific goals the Russian Federation pursues, in addition to the announced increase in the security of its forces after the ‘frindly fire’ incident with its reconnaissance aircraft. Sometimes it is those goals that are publicly declared, and it makes no sense to look for a black cat in a dark room if the cat does not exist.

  3. Realist says:

    Syria and it’s allies should shoot down any aircraft that illegally invades it’s air space.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  4. It doesn’t matter how much hardware Russians can ship to Syria, if there is no political will in the Kremlin to kill Israeli pilots and down Israeli planes. Russians already have plenty of hardware in Syria. They decline to engage Israeli planes.

    Putin’s recent maneuvers could be aimed at saving his face with domestic public, rather than imposing any real restrictions on Israeli activities. I’d like to be optimistic, but it just sounds like something Putin would do. This wouldn’t resolve the situation, obviously. Israelis will kill some more Russian soldiers, and Putin will have an even bigger problem on his hands.

    • Replies: @CalDre
    , @anon
    , @Moi
  5. So, basically it’s a shell game. Mix a few advanced systems with a few of the older ones and the Israels won’t know which are which as long as they look the same.

    With all these missiles floating around how long will it be until a passenger jet is shot down?

    How would that to complicate the situation?

    • Replies: @Quartermaster
  6. Maybe the Syrians used one of those S-700s to shoot down that Russian plane.

    The Saker was declaring victory not too long ago. It’s a quagmire. Focus.

    Anti-aircraft missiles are not firepower. F-16s are firepower.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @jgarbo
    , @anon
  7. @Realist

    What if they launch missiles from over Mediterranean like the last time?

    • Replies: @Realist
  8. @Johnny Rico

    F16 combined with anti-aircraft missile becomes a pile of burning rubble on the ground. And it looks glorious!

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    , @utu
    , @SurfaceBook
  9. TomVe says:

    You write:
    “During the past year the Israelis informed the Russians about their planned airstrikes in Syria via their deconfliction line only in 10% of the cases. For the remaining 90% they did not even bother, in spite of having promised to do so in their agreement with Russia.

    Where do you get this information? What is (are) your source document(s)?

    • Replies: @Isabella
  10. TomVe says:

    You write: “During the past year the Israelis informed the Russians about their planned airstrikes in Syria via their deconfliction line only in 10% of the cases. For the remaining 90% they did not even bother, in spite of having promised to do so in their agreement with Russia.

    Where do you get this information? What is (are) your source document(s)?

  11. TheJester says:

    The Russian might fear that if the Russians/Syrians shoot down Israeli airplanes (especially the F-35), the Israelis will use to their marked influence over the “Swamp” in Washington, DC, to force the Americans to take out the new S-300 air defense and command and control elements. The Israelis have done this many times in the past … bringing the Americans to do their dirty work for them.

    If so, “Check” … “Countercheck!” Who, then, will try to take this to “Checkmate”?

    This goes back to Paul Craig Robert’s repeated observations that the Russians will have to eventually take a stand … or, be tagged as a “Paper Tiger” that cannot/will not stand by their allies or their interests.

  12. augustus says: • Website

    Go ahead, Putin!
    put those racist Jooss at bay.
    Use russian intelligence and wipe out their hideouts in syria.

  13. CalDre says:
    @Felix Keverich

    if there is no political will in the Kremlin to kill Israeli pilots and down Israeli planes. Russians already have plenty of hardware in Syria. They decline to engage Israeli planes.

    That’s the point of these S-300 systems – fire control is handed to the Syrians, unlike Russia’s systems to which you refer. This means Syria would be the one shooting down Israeli attack aircraft in self-defense. It’s a good move by Russia.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  14. macilrae says:

    Can we also factor in the well-known courage of those Israeli pilots and, for that matter, the widespread reluctance to take personal risk of that most moral army? I suspect from now on the Russians will be keeping their terms of engagement less clear and the chances of an Israeli sortie not returning will have increased to a quite daunting degree.

  15. @CalDre

    I’m pretty sure that Russians will retain control for a while.

  16. Is there, or will there be, any comment on the effectiveness of Russsian air defense against the F-35s? In Russian Insider I find apocalyptic assertions that stealth is or shortly will be dead, welcome news if true, but nothing of substance.

  17. @Frederick V. Reed

    In Russian Insider I find apocalyptic assertions that stealth is or shortly will be dead,

    You found it from my blog post which RI frivolously reposted and renamed without consulting me (as usual–it seems to be their MO) , but on substance–the answer is simple: signal processing based on modern processors and sensor fusion. Russians weren’t too worried about so called “stealth” since late 1990s. Latest Vostok 2018 exercises which included a massive use of Air Defense systems involved a huge variety of VLO targets–didn’t seem to be a problem. Knowing how Russians test and exercise–that wasn’t a boasting. Russia/USSR is traditionally one of the leaders, if not the leader, in radar technology. I will abstain from going here into the whole “stealth” myth but under good RLP I had no problems tracking single birds on several different radar systems miles and miles away and this was in 1980s. Things changed since then. This is in general.

  18. Isabella says:
    @TomVe

    If you go to the video [available on YouTube] put out by the RF MoD, detailing the incident. He states this is so at the end of the broadcast.

    • Replies: @Quartermaster
  19. Isabella says:
    @TheJester

    Remember before you join with PCR in decrying the incredible degree of patience and restraint that Putin has shown, that should a situation escalate into a probably WWIII – which could happen within a few hours, Russia, population 145 million, would be facing America; Population 330 million, plus probably most of Europe; Population 300 million, plus the 5-eyes vassals; joint pop. almost 100 million.
    IN which case, he would have no choice but to pre-emptively empty just about all his nuclear missiles all over America before it could do the same to Russia.
    Do you want this?

    • Replies: @TheJester
    , @SeamusH
  20. hunor says:

    If you so knowledgeable , why don’t you respond to FB on his theory as to who
    shot down the Russian plane? It is much more likely that it was a concerted premeditated
    action of ” leapfrogging” then an accident. War is not an accident it is planned every step of
    the way.

    • Replies: @hunor
    , @Andrei Martyanov
  21. hunor says:
    @hunor

    I meant to address Mr. Martyanov.

  22. “it will eventually bring the downfall of the last openly racist regime on the planet.”

    We can only hope.

  23. Cyrano says:

    You know who US and Israel remind me of? Dr. Evil and mini-me from the Austin Powers movies. Dr. Evil US has to carry around its neck the developmentally challenged mini-me Israel, while both plot and execute evil plans (for entertainment purposes?).

    If I was the Russians, the current S-300 and other military equipment delivery to Syria – I would call all that – preparation H, to get rid of the annoying hemorrhoids Dr. Evil and mini-me.

    The most fascinating thing for me is the logic behind which Israel and US operate in Syria. The logic is this: They have been so wronged by the world, US by 9/11 and Israel by the holocaust, that international law doesn’t apply to them anymore.

    They are free to bomb any country in the world as long as they manage to secure (their own) accusation that the target country is practising terrorism. Never mind that US pretty much invented terrorism.

    Having said all that, the main blame for what is happening in Syria lies with the Arabs. How do you ally yourself with US? How do you receive their aid to destroy an Arabic country? They are supposed to be the most fanatical Islamic believers and they are allies of US? That just doesn’t work.

    Let’s say that Assad is not the ideal candidate for running Syria because he is not Sunni. What happens if they succeed in removing him? Syria is going to turn into jihadi heaven? It’s going to turn into Libya post Gaddafi and into Iraq post Hussein. Again, the blame lies with the Arabs, without them the twin duo will not have an opening into Syria.

  24. Wally says:
    @Cyrano

    said:
    ” … and Israel by the holocaust, that international law doesn’t apply to them anymore.”

    That was a prime factor in inventing the fake ’6,000,000 / ‘holocau$t’ in first place.

    See The Big Lie beat to a pulp:
    American Pravda: Holocaust Denial, by Ron Unz http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-holocaust-denial/

    “Does anybody seriously believe something so totally ridiculous?”
    - Ron Unz

    • Replies: @papa
  25. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Good thing is the development of visceral hatred against Israel among Russians.

  26. Lot says:

    “Disaster” for the USA? “Gross incompetence” of Israel?

    Looks to me like Russia’s one middle east ally is still in the middle of a borderline-genocidal civil war, while Israel is making friends with Egypt, Saudi, and UAE.

    Maybe in 2025 Syria will be back to its 1985 level of economic development.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @annamaria
  27. Maybe it’s just me,

    but deploying anti-ballistic missile systems into Syria hardly sounds like a loack of serious intent.

  28. AWM says:

    Russia can move plenty of hardware into Syria, but that will not change the fact that Israel is the 800 pounder in the region with more strike options than everybody else combined.
    And as far as Israel “illegally” interdicting missiles intended for use against their infrastructure, good luck with that, they certainly don’t need anyone’s approval.
    Sure, some hi tech Russian weapon systems may take out a few Israeli aircraft, but at what cost?
    If Putin wants to sell more of his shiny missile systems, he will not try to use them against Israeli forces.

  29. Dungo jay says:

    Don’t the russians really excell in electronics -computers,television and radar?

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  30. @AWM

    In other words, Israel is a psychotically evil nation that is willing to escalate the situation in Syria to the brink of nuclear war.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  31. TheJester says:
    @Isabella

    Isabella, I’m not understanding what you are saying or what you are presuming. I’m an avid fan of Putin. Indeed, I have imaged myself wearing a “Putin for President” shirt. I’m on his side in the free-for-all of international intrigue and politics.

    Under Putin’s leadership, one has to be impressed with a country (Russia) that the West has disparaged as an economic rival of Spain … yet has developed a stable of advanced military weapons that are superior to anything the United States has in its arsenal. However, a side question: Is this the Russian strategic equivalent of the previous American “Star Wars” program … albeit this time designed by Russia to bankrupt the United States? If the F-35 is an example of the US response, this will succeed.

    The issue I raise is a real one. The West is paranoid that Russia and China will reach a political, economic, and military accord that will secure the Asian continent for Asians. The British Navy and then the American Navy have historically acted on the periphery to extract natural resources and control international trade. A Russian/Chinese political, economic, and military accord has the benefit of Asians acting on internal lines of communication and making the United States Navy obsolete.

    The dilemmas are not unlike those presented to the Germans in the 1st and 2nd World Wars. Could the Germans secure effective internal lines of communication into Asia in time to make the navies of Britain and the United States irrelevant? The Germans failed. However, Russian weapons and the Chinese economy have the potential to finally pull this off.

    Hence, the United States with pitifully ineffective support from the EU is desperate to prevent the concord between Russia and China that can materially and perhaps permanently change the power relationships in the world for the first time since the western Middle Ages. The US strategy: divide and conquer.

    I imagine myself in Putin’s shoes … playing three-dimensional chess. (BTW: I can’t play three-dimensional chess.) How does one deal with the last desperate throws of the dying American empire without getting involved in the “action-reactions” that led to WWI and WWII? Syria is the perfect scenario for that to happen.

    If Putin is forced up against the wall in Syria, what will he do? If a confrontation with the West materializes and he backs down, he is over. The United States has called his bluff. The United States is then free to confront and try to humiliate China in the same way.

    However, if Russia calls the US bluff, I’m afraid to imagine the consequences. The US is also over. The danger is that the United States will respond with mindless violence that leads to WWIII.

    I wish Putin well. He is better equipped to play and win at three-dimensional chess than any of the current actors in the United States or the European Union in his quest for a multi-polar world.

    As an American, I pray Putin succeeds. I want my country back; I want us to return to our origins as a constitutional republic. In the meantime, Putin lives in a deadly jungle created by the death throes of the American Empire. To paraphrase Dylan Thomas, The Empire of the United States,

    Does not go gentle into that good night,
    Old age should burn and rave at close of day;
    Rage, rage against the dying of the Light.

    Though wise men at their end know dark is right,
    Because their words had forked no lightning they
    Do not go gentle into that good night
    [ At the close of Imperial Light ].

  32. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    In one stroke , 3 countries will vanish together – US ,Israel ,Saudi Arab and to avid definite rout or death Egypt and and UAE will join them .

  33. SeamusH says:
    @Isabella

    @Isabella

    PCR doesn’t “decry” Putin’s patience and restraint, he admires it; but he points out that they may entail unforeseen consequences and may ential the irrational responses of the neocons and Israelis. Obviously the Russian military doesn’t entirely agree with Putin’s “partners” perspective.

  34. the S-300s are certainly formidable air defense systems, they are not a Wunderwaffe

    Most important statement. Repeat over, and over, and over again.

    Israelis operate in Syria because of Iran/Hezbollah. Maybe they operate in Syria more than they have to, and they use Iran/Hezbollah as a casus belli, because they are secretly compensated by the Saudis who have it in for the Assad regime. That’s conspiratorial, but seems at least as likely as the speculation that “Israelis simply think that they don’t have to abide by any kind of norms of behavior.” This conspiracy theory also doesn’t implicate all Israelis or even the entire Israeli government, it may simply be limited to key individuals in extraordinary positions of power who may be on the offing for riches no one here can imagine in return for some old fashioned corruption.

    To try and put a Saker hat on and see this from a Russian point of view, and to also care for Russian servicemen in Syria, and to be realistic about the extent and capabilities and quantity and quality of the assets at the disposal of those who seem determined to act with impunity against international law in Syria under the rubric of opposing Iran/Hezbollah, here’s some more ideas:

    1. Perhaps Russia should provide substantially more SAM systems than it has openly stated (and maybe it is planning this and wisely not announcing it) – in this vein the Pantsirs-S1/2 the Saker recommends and additional un-enumerated integrated S-300 deployments might satisfy … no one should think this is invincible it is simply so far from it – I am sorry Russian tech fanboys, none of this is a Star Wars Nabooian Gungan shield – the tech can be defeated and you are wrong to think anything else but it plays the strongest hand, strongest, and can be part of a larger strategy

    2. “Syrian finger on the trigger” is key – avoiding Russia/Israel or Russia/NATO engagement is paramount not least of all because it means Israel/NATO forces cannot rely on Russian restraint and that should have a deterring effect which will allay tensions

    but … with hands played as strong as they can be:

    3. Strategically de-escalate – do this by cooperating with the Chinese and other non-permanent members of the UN Security Council to make as loud a fuss as possible to call for a demilitarization of Syria by both Iran/Hezbollah and Israel following 1980s norms meaning:

    Turn the cards, turn the tables…

    a) under a UN Mandate (that China and Russia should dare the US, UK and France to veto) belligerents such as Russia, NATO, Israel all observe a cease-fire while b) a substantial force of UN Peacekeepers enters Syria … does whatever is possible to expel Hezbollah or drive it underground to the point of effective neutering, and c) position themselves strategically so that Israeli strikes would result in hitting UN targets … raise stakes further by working the UN in advance to presume Israel will strike a UN target and be ready with the most devastating economic and diplomatic counter-response possible as swiftly as possible – such a response should be calculated to hit the ordinary Israeli citizen/taxpayer and make him as likely as possible to vote in a new government.

    The Saker is putting the best face on it he can, but a plain stating is that a military solution isn’t in the offing. This is true for everyone. There’s not Israeli military “solution”, nor Iranian, nor US – there certainly isn’t a Russian military solution.

    But as far as I can tell the US has no interest in being a hero of a diplomatic solution even though if it was paying any attention, acting with any values, and not allowing the tail to wag the dog but leading with its own agency, it would be the one leveraging the UN exactly as I’ve described and without need of S300 deployments.
    So go ahead Russia. This is the US’s show to play, but it’s not playing the part. Have at it Understudy!
    Play the military cards well so that they arc towards a diplomatic break of tensions and no one should fault Russia for eating empire’s Peacemaker lunch when empire is off at the war movies.

    Someone needs to be thinking about a diplomatic endgame. It is simply unsafe, at a global level, to have the US, Russia and Israel packed in this small place testing each other this way.

    A caution: one shouldn’t underestimate Iranian squealing in the event of the success of such measures. The Iranian regime isn’t popular and like other regimes relies on wars “over there” to promote stability at home. It must be nice too for the Ayatollahs and Revolutionary Guards to be able to send volatile hotheads a few countries over to blow off steam and occasionally fail to return to the motherland. Genuine diplomatic success in Syria has the potential to be destabilizing in Iran. On the other hand, peace in Syria, leveraged well, can generate economic opportunity for Iran that could offset such concerns.

    • Disagree: L.K
    • Replies: @ploni almoni
    , @Winston2
    , @Bill
  35. Realist says:
    @Felix Keverich

    I consider a missile an aircraft if it is in the atmosphere.

  36. El Dato says:
    @AWM

    If Putin wants to sell more of his shiny missile systems, he will not try to use them against Israeli forces.

    Explain.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  37. @War for Blair Mountain

    Uuuum no. Go back and re-read. Slowly.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  38. Somewhat OT:

    Indian Prime Minister signs deal with Vladimir Putin for purchase of S-400 missile defense system.

    https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/modi-putins-s-400-missile-deal-is-india-doing-a-strategic-balancing-act-with-russia-and-the-us-watch/294933

    • Replies: @renfro
  39. Alfa158 says:

    There’s one thing I’m surprised you didn’t point out in this article. It isn’t necessary for the Syrians and Russians to wipe the sky clean of NATO and Israeli aircraft. Western electorates are very leery about ongoing casualties. They expect John Wick action movie sagas of the enemy being exterminated like ants while the good guys collect the occasional photogenic bruise. Even a trickle of losses will erode the public support and political will to continue (well except for the Israelis). What does an F-35 go for, something like $350M a copy? Imagine losing even a few of those plus the file photos of the dead or captured pilots.

  40. El Dato says:

    My Schwartz is bigger than your Schwartz now in progress. Prepare for affronts.

    US to send Israel more F-35s after Moscow supplies S-300s to Syria – reports

    The US will reportedly provide Israel with more F-35s after Russia supplied Syria with S-300 missile systems. Moscow’s move came in response to the downing of a Russian military plane, which it partly blamed on Israel.

    US President Donald Trump decided to lend a hand to America’s most devoted ally following consultations at the “highest administration and military levels,” DEBKAfile, a military intelligence news site, said to have ties with the Israeli security services, reported.

    1) How many F-35 can the US spare?
    2) Does it have to tune them to Mediterranean conditions?
    3) What about support infrastructure?

    and most importantly

    4) Does that mean US pilots will be flying or do the Israeli have enough qualified pilots on standby?

    • Replies: @Alfa158
  41. alley cat says:

    But the Israelis simply think that they don’t have to abide by any kind of norms of behavior. That kind of contempt for agreements (and for non-Jews in general) is typical of the Israeli mindset and it will eventually bring the downfall of the last openly racist regime on the planet.

    You should frame those words and hang them on the wall. The Israelis cum Zionists cum Pharisees are fanatical supremacists who are, by their own credo, beyond mortal limitations. Two popular adages come to mind (and there are probably Russian equivalents): “Give them enough rope and they’ll hang themselves,” and “too clever by half.” I’m also reminded of the parable of the monkey trap, where the monkey’s greed prevents it from releasing fruit it has grasped inside a jar, thus causing its own capture or demise at the hands of the monkey catcher.

    Syria may turn out to be the proverbial monkey trap for Trump and Netanyahu, arrogant Zionist monkeys both, with wily Vlad skillfully playing the role of monkey catcher. If the Ziomonkeys release their grip on the Syrian prize, they (once again) compromise their carefully cultivated myth of divinely-ordained, invincible, military supremacy, and with it the ideological foundations of the Zionist project. If they try to hold on, they ultimately face decisive military defeat, and Putin gets to pose standing on their dead political carcasses.

  42. FB says:
    @Frederick V. Reed

    The idea of ‘stealth’ aircraft is in fact mostly a gimmick designed to enrich the military contractors…it doesn’t actually work very well at all, as proved in 1999 when the Serb air defense, using ancient Soviet surface to air missiles of 1950s vintage, shot down the USAF F117 aircraft…and damaged another that was then written off, and therefore counts as a kill…

    –F117 canopy displayed at the Belgrade Aviation Museum

    But let’s look at the idea of ‘low observable’ aircraft technology in a little more detail, and how it may be countered by air defense…

    Let’s start at the beginning…the physics behind ‘stealth’ was developed by a Russian scientist named Petr Ufimtsev…who is now known as the ‘father of stealth’…

    Ufimtsev, working at the Moscow Institute of Radio Engineering, developed a coherent theory on the behavior of radio wave scattering off solid objects…he published his seminal work Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction in 1962…the Soviet military saw no real value in this and allowed it to be published…

    In 1971, the USAF translated this work into English and a couple of engineers at Lockheed realized that Ufimtsev had provided the mathematical foundation to predict how radar waves deflect off an aircraft…it was a lightbulb moment…the main insight of Ufimtsev’s work was that the size of a radar return was more a function of the edge geometry of the aircraft than its actual size…

    Retired USAF Lt Colonel William B O’Connor, who flew the F117 gives a good telling of the story here…

    The end result is that the F117 and B2 were developed by programming Ufimtsev’s math into powerful computers in order to come up with aircraft shaping geometry that minimized radar reflection…subsequent ‘low observable’ aircraft like the F22 and F35 all build on this basic physics…

    Now while the idea of reducing an aircraft’s radar return sounds good in principle…it has a lot of real-world drawbacks…for instance the shaping can only be optimized for one particular aspect, such as a head-on…if the aircraft turns into a bank for instance…its radar return will increase by as much as 100 fold…owing to the simple fact that a banking aircraft exposes its broad underbelly, which has no way to be optimized to also be ‘stealthy’…the shaping cannot accomplish the same result of scattering radio waves off in all directions, from all angles…

    There are other challenges…the vertical tail surfaces will also bounce back radio waves…this is why a tailless, flying wing design like the B2 is better suited to the task…but this kind of configuration brings with it compromises in aircraft maneuverability and agility…

    Aside from the aircraft geometry, which is the main means of achieving ‘low observability’…there are also special coatings that are designed to ‘absorb’ radio waves…although this is only of limited effectiveness and depends a lot on the thickness of the rubbery coating…I had the opportunity to physically examine a piece of the wreckage of that F117 shot down in Serbia, and the thickness and weight of that coating was surprising…it was about 1/16 inch thick in places along the vertical stabilizers and seemed to weigh more than the underlying composite honeycomb structure itself [typical of Lockheed lightweight structural design]…

    This additional weight is a major disadvantage of ‘stealth’ aircraft…aircraft must be as light as possible to perform well…that is just basic physics…but these logical design considerations have seemingly been sidelined in what can only be explained as a money-making gimmick that only detracts from actual aircraft capability…

    Col Everest E Riccioni, one the USAF’s most legendary test pilots and Air Force Academy instructors has probably done more than anyone to debunk the ‘stealth’ nonsense…his 2005 report on the F22 is insightful reading and proved quite prescient about the failure of this aircraft to become anything more than a glorified hangar queen…

    The F35 is far worse of course…but Col Riccioni passed away before he could fully train his guns on this very deficient aircraft…

    The fact of the matter is that the F117 was more ‘stealthy’ than the F22 or F35…this due to its faceted design wherein the airframe shape was defined largely by a series of flat plates…[remember that the whole physics of radio reflection boils down to edge geometry...]

    The current MIC propaganda is that the faceted shape is not necessary due to improved supercomputers that can calculate the math for curved surfaces…well, the physical fact is that curved surfaces reflect in all directions and no amount of ‘supercomputing’ can change that…Col Riccioni, who is no slouch in physics, having designed and taught the first graduate-level course in astronautics at the USAF Academy, confirms that the F117 was a more ‘stealthy’ design than the F22…and the F35 is considered not as stealthy as the F22…

    As for defending against ‘low observable’ aircraft with surface to air missiles [SAMs]…let us review some of the pertinent factors that go into this equation…a SAM system consists basically of powerful radars that spot and track enemy aircraft and guide a missile shot to the target…the only way to kill a SAM system by means of an attacking aircraft is to target its radars with a special type of missile that homes in on radio signals…known as anti-radiation missiles [HARMs]…such as the US AGM88…

    The problem becomes one of reach…how far can the SAM missiles reach…and how far can the HARMs reach…?

    A long range SAM like the S300/400 wins this contest easily…the S300 can hit targets as far as 250 km away [400 km for S400]…while the best Harms can reach about 150 km at most…and that’s if fired at high aircraft speed and altitude…so it becomes a question of how do you get within the SAM missile kill zone to fire your Harm in the first place…?

    In the 1999 bombing of Serbia, the US and 18 participating Nato allies mustered over 1,000 aircraft and fired a total of over 700 Harms at Serb air defenses, over the course of 78 days…but managed to knock out only three 1970s era mobile SAM units…the 2K12 ‘Kub’…

    A good account of that operation was published by Dr Benjamin Lambeth in 2002, in the USAF’s flagship technical publication, Aerospace Power Journal…

    This campaign was truly a David vs Goliath match, yet the Serbs effectively fought the alliance to a draw…

    NATO never fully succeeded in neutralizing the Serb IADS [integrated air defense system], and NATO aircraft operating over Serbia and Kosovo were always within the engagement envelopes of enemy SA-3 and SA-6 missiles— envelopes that extended as high as 50,000 feet.

    Because of that persistent threat, mission planners had to place such high-value surveillance-and-reconnaissance platforms as the U-2 and JSTARS in less-than-ideal orbits to keep them outside the lethal reach of enemy SAMs.

    Even during the operation’s final week, NATO spokesmen conceded that they could confirm the destruction of only three of Serbia’s approximately 25 known mobile SA-6 batteries.’

    Lambeth notes that things could have been much different had the Serbs had the S300…

    ‘One SA-10/12 [early S300 variant] site in Belgrade and one in Pristina could have provided defensive coverage over all of Serbia and Kosovo. They also could have threatened Rivet Joint, Compass Call, and other key allied aircraft such as the airborne command and control center and the Navy’s E-2C operating well outside enemy airspace.

    Fortunately for NATO, the Serb IADS did not include the latest-generation SAM equipment currently available on the international arms market.’

    Since 1999, the last major SEAD [suppression of enemy air defense] operation by Nato…the Russian air defense capabilities have only become more lethal…the radars employed on the S300/400 series are phased array types which are very difficult to jam and much more precise in guiding a missile to the target…

    Phased array means that instead of a parabolic dish, the antenna consists of several thousand individual antenna elements that are electronically steered in order to create a very precise radar beam…[instead of a dish antenna being mechanically rotated and tilted]…

    When it comes to air defense it’s really mostly about the radar…Dr Carlo Kopp, an expert on Russian air defense systems notes that even the early iterations of the S300 engagement radar were a huge step forward in capability…

    ‘With electronic beam steering, very low sidelobes and a narrow pencil beam mainlobe, the 30N6 phased array is more difficult to detect and track by an aircraft’s warning receiver when not directly painted by the radar, and vastly more difficult to jam.

    While it may have detectable backlobes, these are likely to be hard to detect from the forward sector of the radar. As most anti-radiation missiles rely on sidelobes to home in, the choice of engagement geometry is critical in attempting to kill a Flap Lid.’

    Shown is the latest generation 92N6 ‘Grave Stone’ engagement radar used with S300/400 systems…the engagement radar actually guides the missile shot, while separate early warning and acquisition and tracking radars first detect the target, then cue the engagement radar to point to the target and guide the missile shot…

    Another important point with the S300 transfer to Syria that is overlooked in this article is the option to hybridize the Syrian S200 missiles with the S300 radars…

    In this scenario the weakest link of the S200 is eliminated…its obsolete parabolic dish type engagement radar…the S200 missile is instead guided to the target by the formidable new S300/400 radars…

    ‘In this arrangement, an SA-20/21 system with its high power aperture and highly jam resistant acquisition and engagement radars prosecutes an engagement, but rather than launching its organic 48N6 series missile rounds, it uses the SA-5 Gammon round instead…

    The challenge which a hybrid SA-5/SA-20/SA-21 system presents is considerable. The SA-20/21 battery is highly mobile, and with modern digital frequency hopping radars, will be difficult to jam.

    Soft kill and hard kill become problematic. In terms of defeating the SA-5 component of the hybrid, the only option is to jam the missile CW homing seeker, the effectiveness of which will depend entirely on the vintage of the 5G24N series seeker and the capabilities of the jamming equipment. If the customer opts for an upgrade to the seeker electronics, the seeker may be digital and very difficult to jam.’

    This could be the most important part of the story, since the Syrians have a large number of S200 systems…it is certain that a number of additional S300/400 radars have been delivered as part of that ’49 pieces’ reported in Russian media…and these powerful and fully mobile radars [truck mounted] will be used to modernize the S200 network…

    It is worth noting also that SAM mobility is a key advance of the S300/400 systems…the various radars and the missile launchers are all mounted on large trucks and are designed for five minute shoot and scoot…this mobility proved key to the Nato difficulty with Serbian SAMs, even though those old systems were not designed for that, but the Serbs nonetheless would dismantle and move the fixed radars and launchers on a regular basis…

    In order to attack a SAM with an aircraft you first have to know where it is…the only way to know is when it turns on its radar at which point it may be too late if it is pointed at you…after taking the shot, the whole thing packs up and moves in five minutes flat [the Patriot takes 30 minutes by comparison]…

    It should be noted here that these mobile Russian search and acquisition radars are extremely powerful…the ‘Big Bird’ series is in the same class as the Aegis radar mounted on USN missile cruisers and destroyers…

    ‘The 64N6E Big Bird is the key to much of the improved engagement capability, and ballistic missile intercept capability in the later S-300P variants.

    This system operates in the 2 GHz band and is a phased array with a 30% larger aperture than the US Navy SPY-1 Aegis radar, even accounting for its slightly larger wavelength it amounts to a mobile land based Aegis class package. It has no direct equivalent in the West.’

    The final piece of the puzzle when it comes to countering ‘stealth’ aircraft is a special category of radar designed specifically for that purpose…these operate at much lower frequencies [ie longer wavelength] which renders the stealth shaping useless…since the physics dictates that aircraft features shorter than the radar wavelength cannot produce the desired scattering effect…as Col Riccioni notes…

    [The F22's] radar signature is admittedly small in the forward quarter but only to airborne radars. The aircraft is detectable by high-power, low-frequency ground based radars…

    …it is physically impossible to design shapes and radar absorptive material to simultaneously defeat low power, high-frequency enemy fighter radars, and high power, low-frequency ground based radars.’

    Kopp gives a good overview of the advanced Russian anti-stealth radars in this category…

    The system uses a series of radars of varying wavelength…each mounted on a mobile chassis as with all the modern Russian SAM radars…the long wavelength radar finds the ‘stealth’ target easily and then cues a shorter wavelength radar to further pinpoint the target, which, in turn, cues the engagement radar that guides the missile shot…

    Shown is such a deployment of three radars and a command vehicle in the background…

    All told, the upgrade of the Syrian air defenses now presents a very formidable system…it should be noted that the S200 missile when used with these powerful radars could be an especially deadly combination…this rocket was until 2009 the longest range SAM rocket in the world, with a maximum range of up to 375 km…

    Unlike modern SAM missiles that use solid propellant rocket motors [basically a bottle rocket]…the S200 uses a real liquid fuel rocket engine…it has a top speed of 2.5 km/s which is actually faster than the S400 rockets…and the liquid engine means it can be throttled to decrease or increase its speed [minimum flying speed is 700 m/s]…something that a solid rocket cannot do…

    In the right hands, this combination of advanced S300 radars and the superb kinematic performance of the S200 missile could be a deadly combination…the fact that Syria has a lot of these S200 missiles means that adding those S300 radars makes it a whole new ballgame…we already saw back in February when an S200 shot down an Israeli F16 in Israeli airspace…there are unconfirmed reports that a second aircraft was hit and possibly destroyed…

    The question of Israeli F35s trying to attack these mobile S300 SAMs is not really a serious consideration for any air combat practitioner…the F35 has terrible flight characteristics such as very high wing loading, which directly affects its turning ability…[think of running with a 100 lb backpack and how that might affect your maneuverability]…

    The basic flight physics of this airplane are terrible, as many qualified experts have pointed out…it would be difficult to envisage how it could play a role in mounting an attack against these Syrian S300s…

    The only realistic option to attack such an air defense zone would be to use the mountainous terrain along the Levant coast and fly a nap of the earth mission with highly maneuverable fighters like the F15 and F16 to try to hide from radar in the mountains…and get close enough to deliver a Harm missile to an S300 radar…

    But this would be a very risky mission…especially considering that the Russians are flying their AWACS planes over Syria, so even terrain following is not going to work in trying to hide…

  43. yet the Serbs effectively fought the alliance to a draw…

    You are severely mentally ill.

    • Troll: FB
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @FB
  44. “That kind of contempt for agreements (and for non-Jews in general) is typical of the Israeli mindset and it will eventually bring the downfall of the last openly racist regime on the planet.”

    May God hasten the day when this prediction comes true!

  45. Cyrano says:
    @Johnny Rico

    You are severely mentally ill.

    No I think that you match that description better, you degenerate. As far as the Serbian military goes, NATO didn’t defeat them, but then again, Serbian military wasn’t their primary target. The biggest successes of US military always come against civilians, not against military targets.

    Let’s just say that with their trillion dollar “defence” budget they were able to successfully capture that niche of military operations – fighting civilians. The Serbs at the time told them, we are waiting for you when you send the ground troops, then we’ll see what’s what. Of course the ground troops never came, because US idea of “fighting” is dropping bombs from 10 km up. That’s’ why they couldn’t defeat Vietnam, nor the Afghans, because their idea of “fighting” is not fighting at all – it’s just terror bombing.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
  46. Alfa158 says:
    @El Dato

    I have to correct my last comment. On more detailed research, the $350M unit cost for the F-35 is only for the current procurement quantity. Over the longer run the highest estimate is only $250-300M each, and at a production run of 2000 airplanes, they could cost no more than an F-22 at $200M each. So, at those bargain basement prices, the US taxpayer can spare as many as the Israelis are able to fly.
    Sorry to everyone for the error.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  47. AWM says:

    FB, get real man. Any target on the ground is indefensible, no matter how many of your vaunted S-400 to S-750s you surround it with. If it isn’t hidden, very very well hidden, it’s dead, period.
    There is more than one way to skin a cat.
    The US and the Israelis have been doing it for a long time. Their accumulated track record against Soviet/Russian air defense systems is pretty good, even including when they didn’t show all the capability they had, which was most of the time.
    Distributed combat computing with forward sensors in the combat cloud is hard. And it’s even harder if your opponent has to contend with CHAMP assets as well.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Vidi
  48. El Dato says:
    @Alfa158

    It’s like diamonds; if you buy wholesale the price goes down, but you still spend more money than if you just bought a less.

    A lot depends also on whether “allies” can dragooned into buying the crippleware version (aka “export version”) of the naval version F-35 (the one with the additional vertical turbine in the middle that burns holes into carrier flight decks). The UK is onboard but will they find the money? The EU is definitely not convinced by the flying stealth technoduck.

    I’m not sure whether the continuing fixing of software and hardware will increase the price. Especially in regards to problems that have yet to manifest seeing how the F-35 design is pretty adventurous (software quality is bad I hear).

    • Replies: @Alfa158
  49. FB says:
    @Johnny Rico

    Fuck right off you fucking little twerp…little johnny freako who eats cats…

  50. @Si1ver1ock

    Putin already knows the answer to your question. His boys already shot one down of the Donbas and it is still causing them problems.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  51. @Isabella

    In other words, like Saker, you’ll believe anything put out by the Russians.

  52. FB says:
    @AWM

    ‘FB, get real man. Any target on the ground is indefensible, no matter how many of your vaunted S-400 to S-750s you surround it with.’

    Yeah that’s a real convincing case you presented there…I suppose if a retard on the internet says so, it must be true…

  53. @FB

    Low radar cross-section can only be defeated by increasing the power radiated from the antenna. Going to low frequency creates a radar that is almost useless for targeting guidance. The “queing” function is useless if the main fire control radar still doesn’t see the AC. At this point, the only option with small radar x-section AC is simply to radiate more power. The Serbs were finally able to target the 117 because the radars were close enough that they could see the AC enough to actually target the 117.

    There is no AA missile system that can not be defeated. The problems are well known, even with the vaunted S-XXX systems. They can make life more difficult, but they will still be destroyed because they must be in the open to be used.

    This is not saying there will not be casualties – there will be. But the S-XXX is not some super weapon that can not be defeated. The USAF will simply bring back the wild weasel squadrons, and the Israelis will learn to beat them as well. In all likelihood, it will info produced by the Israelis that will lead to the US having the same capability.

    The thing about the F-117 being more stealthy than the 22 or 35 is truly amusing. The F-117s were shot down as the Serbs noted, quite by accident, that the 117 disturbed cell tower signals that were able to find them with their fire control radars after the info from the cell system told them where to look. There is no such thing as a completely undetectable aircraft. It is quite unlikely there will ever be. The experience in Serbia led to the retirement of the 117 as the 22 and 35 were in development and have a smaller radar x-section than the 117.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Kiza
    , @Vidi
    , @EvilLib
  54. AWM says:

    I don’t have to convince anyone, FB, anyone knows all those transmitting radars are just saying “shoot me” or, “microwave me.”

    “Retard” you say, all you Stalinist apologists are the RETARDS.
    You are easy to identify, you’re always insulting people.

  55. FB says:
    @Quartermaster

    Fartermaster…it would help if you actually knew anything about the subject under discussion…which you don’t…

    Do you remember your gas eruptions about how ‘Russian metallurgy is behind that of the west’…?

    And my technical reply on that subject here…

    …proving that you are a flatulent blowhard who does not posses any actual knowledge about anything having to do with actual science…

    And also your bullshit about the Russian nuclear-fueled cruise missile which you called ‘Putin wishcasting’…and which technical principles of such a cruise missile I explained in depth here…

    Your comments about radar and low observable aircraft are similar flatulence…and have nothing to do with physical reality…go and argue with the the sources I cited…everything you have said is just utter bullshit…

    You have proved time and again that you are a capable only of ridiculous gas eruptions on this bulletin board…give readers here a break from your noxious flatulence…

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  56. hunor says:
    @FB

    FB why do you think Mr. Martyanov didn’t reply to your theory , of
    the downed Russian plane ? Both Mr. Saker and Mr. Martyanov are
    quiet like the rabbit in a high grass.

    • Replies: @FB
  57. FB says:
    @hunor

    I suspect it’s because they have nothing to say…

  58. peterAUS says:

    The usual Saker.

    The conflict there will keep going, will just get more complicated and bloody.

    Personally, I’ll start paying proper attention, again, when the first US plane gets shot down. Or a team on the ground gets wiped out.

    Forgot….was Syria in that constant warfare state in the “1984″? Oceania and Eurasia.

  59. Alfa158 says:
    @El Dato

    What I’ve read is that the software problem stems from it’s sheer size. When the plane started flight tests it’s capabilities could not be fully tested because 20% of the eight million lines of code had not yet been verified and validated. That’s a fraction of Windows, but the consequences of a glitch in your PC are a lot more serious than in a combat plane.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  60. @Quartermaster

    Those of us who have followed the conflict for several years have noticed that the Russians are consistently reserved in their remarks, and consistently accurate. We have also found Israelis to be nothing but liars.

  61. @AWM

    Israel can only engage in hit and run strikes if they think they can get away with them, or launch a limited ground war to try to get more water from Lebanon’s Litani River. You knew it was also about water, didn’t you?

    Except, now that Hezbollah has teamed up with Iran, if Israel tries to steal more water and launches a war, they will be pummeled from all sides. Jews are known cowards, and any government that tried and failed would not last a day.

    As for hit and run attacks, Israel can bluster all she wants, but every day that the vaunted F-35 does not violate Syrian airspace is another day that Israel looks smaller and Syria looks better.

  62. renfro says:

    But the Israelis simply think that they don’t have to abide by any kind of norms of behavior. That kind of contempt for agreements (and for non-Jews in general) is typical of the Israeli mindset and it will eventually bring the downfall of the last openly racist regime on the planet.

    We hope.

  63. renfro says:

    When I am elected President I will form an alliance between Russia and the US as the two super powers of the world.

    We will station US and Russian aircraft carrier fleets along the coast of the ME. All ME states will be advised that any fighter jets, bombers, drones, surveillance planes or any planes not identifiable as civilian airliners or cargo planes not transporting weapons will be shot down period, no exceptions. All nuclear submarines in the waters off the coast except Russian and American will likewise be destroyed. Also likewise Terrorist entities who attempt to invade another country on the ground will be dispatched by our own aerial forces.

    Now all I have to do is get elected and we can have a little peace.

    Boys with toys need to learn to think bigger.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
  64. Kiza says:
    @Quartermaster

    I am not going to insult you personally, but as a cheap paid troll you have absolutely no clue about the subject you are typing about for your Israeli masters. FB has not explained everything perfectly but what he wrote is correct. It is not true that an airforce would target radar installations only with HARM missiles, which all NATO countries and Israel have, but in practice HARM are the only missiles to reliably target mobile air defence. During the attack on Serbia, US flew more than 90% of NATO missions and it managed to destroy three missile batteries and one radar station (using HARM). But the mobility of the Serbian immobile air defences had two major effects:
    1) Unlike Iraq, Serbia let NATO bomb targets without always switching on its air defences to be detected and destroyed; this grossly reduced NATOs air effectiveness because with every bomber they had to constantly send at least one support plane with jammers, HARMs etc. NATO tried to claim a virtue out of this by saying that they were soft on Serbia and will get tougher, but in reality their military attack was becoming difficult to manage, expensive and risky (the NATO unity was beginning to fray).
    2) It was a running joke in Serbia how NATO planes would attack some completely empty hill (Serbia is a relatively hilly country), create literally free fireworks for the villagers, just because there was an air defense installation on the hill maybe 5-10 hours ago. A similar joke was how the Serbian military or even the local villagers would spread a strip of black builders plastic over a river and NATO planes flying at above 5 km to avoid manpads would blast this $2 bridge with $200,000 worth of bombs (adding mission cost to the cost of bombs).

    Regarding US F117, it was more “stealth” than F35 and similar stealth to the smaller F22, but the Serbians used the Checkoslovakian TAMARA passive radar, using ionospheric scatter, and also launched multiple operator guided missiles at F117 without a proper engagement radar to be HARMed. Self-confident in stealth the pilots of F117 did not manoeuvre, thus it was easy to predict their path even without the targeting and engagement radar.

    Forcing US to retire F117 was the second costliest damage the Serbians have done (Lockheed did not cry, through their lobbyists they turned the loss into an opportunity to sell more rubbish). But the biggest cost to US was that Milosevic sold several unexploded cruise missiles and all F117 parts to China and used the money to rebuild and repair all civilian buildings in Serbia destroyed by NATO. Later, UK and US did a colour revolution in Serbia, got their hands on Milosevic, who then died from a health “accident” in NATO jail.

  65. renfro says:
    @FB

    True, the F35 is a trillion dollar turkey according to everything I have read, but I’m not a aeronautical engineer so cant comment on it intelligently.

    BUT WAIT !!!! Here’s the good news!

    President Trump, who hated the F-35 before he loved it, used his presidential magic to fix it. Remember he said, because of him, the program now is in really “good shape,” just like that, as declared by the president with an aeronautical engineering degree from Bullshit University

    • LOL: Cloak And Dagger
    • Replies: @Z-man
  66. renfro says:
    @AWM

    Israel is the 800 pounder in the region with more strike options than everybody else combined

    LOL…..you aren’t the 800 pounder in the region, you’re the little monkeys protected by the big US Silverback gorilla while you throw banana peels over your fence, crap all over the territory, chatter incessantly and groom each other.

    • LOL: FB
  67. Kiza says:
    @Cyrano

    You are spot-on. The Serbian military fought NATO to a draw, proven by the fact that the peace treaty signed in Kumanovo in FYRM, did not contain the Rambouye clauses and even left Kosovo under Serbian jurisdiction as per UNSC 1244.

    Even this military draw was forced on Serbia by increased bombardment of civilian targets in Serbia combined with open threats of carpet bombing by US B57. Serbia is a fairly dancely populated country, no jungles to hide in as in Vietnam. The civilian targets were bombed to show that they could do carpet bombing with impunity (with the help of MSM). Thanks to media, to this day very few people in the West know that towards the end of the 78-day war, US and UK deliberately targeted several completely civilian facilities (bridges, hospitals and schools) and in just a few days of such targeting killed about 200 civilians.

    Naturally, any agreements with the West are totally pointless. After the Kumanovo agreement, US and UK organised a colour revolution in Serbia, took Kosovo away and got their Serbian puppets to agree to all Rambouye demands. Serbia did not lose the war, but it lost the agreement peace with the West.

  68. Kiza says:
    @El Dato

    The Israeli troll means to say that the child murdering IDF will show the uneffectiveness of the Russian defence systems. But so far IDF got better of the Russian Military only thanks to Putin’s agreements and orders. Now that Russian Military decides who is the enemy in Syria, via the changed rules of engagement, things may turn out a little different. Wait and see.

    Israelis, stop beating your chest and let us see some action. Then we will see who will be the next to collect body parts from the Mediterranean.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  69. renfro says:
    @PiltdownMan

    Extra off topic

    https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2018/10/trump-saudi-king-wouldn-weeks-support-181003053438418.html’

    Trump: Saudi king wouldn’t last ‘two weeks’ without US support

    “We defend many of these nations for nothing, and then they take advantage of us by giving us high oil prices. Not good. We want them to stop raising prices, we want them to start lowering prices,” Trump said”
    Trump told the rally “I love the king, King Salman. But I said King – we’re protecting you – you might not be there for two weeks without us – you have to pay for your military.” Trump did not indicate when you said this.
    This led to a response from Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who says that the US armaments Saudi Arabia has were not free, and that the Saudis “bought everything with money.”

    Trump should tell that to Israel.
    Opps, I forgot, he cant, they know all about his money laundering clients. Jared told them….lol.

  70. The bottom line is that Putin has bogged himself down still deeper in Syria and that may well be precisely what the Israelis intended. He has fallen into the same mission creep trap that the Soviets fell into in Afghanistan and, indeed, that the US fell into in Vietnam.

    • Replies: @ploni almoni
    , @anon
    , @renfro
  71. utu says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Israel made 200 intrusions in last 18 months. Only one plane was shot down. Usually several missile were launched. This shows that the effectiveness of Syrian AA is very low. It is lower than 1/200.

  72. El Dato says:
    @Alfa158

    It’s probably untestable as such.

    P.S. Didcha know that Hierarchical State Diagram, aka. Harel Charts were developed to describe the software of Israel’s Lavi fighter (a local copy of the F-16). Totally fascinating.

  73. Dorian says:

    Doubts About The F35:aka, The Flying Elephant

    As the discussion on the US and Israeli’s big talk about their superior strike planes are being ratcheted up, there are some serious questions to be asked. For one, is the F-35 really a flying elephant. Why flying elephant? Well, the F-35 is big, grey, and lumbering (that is, it is slow, its actually one of the slowest fighter jets going around). To back this characterization of the F-35 I advance the follow evidential facts:

    - Recently the Russian IL-20 plane was shot down, by a S200 missile battery in Syria, all because the F-16s that were ghosting the IL-20 where trying to hide behind the IL-20′s radar signature. Why? Not why where these Israeli F-16s where ghosting the IL-20, why were these F-16s there in the first place? If the F-35 is superior in stealth to a very dated F-16, why use the F-16? The weapons systems on the F-35 are just as capable (if not more) to hit ground targets in Syria, in fact the F-35 is designed specifically to do just that! So lets now get to some facts.

    - There have been many instances, as described in detail here Pakistan Military Forum Discussion on one F35 Stealth radar detection, where the F-35′s, fast becoming known as The Flying Elephant, is not so stealthy after all. This Flying Elephant has been detected on more than one occassion on radar through out the Middle East. In fact Beirut air traffic control, detect F-35s on a regular basis, and military organizations around the world are starting to question the true abilities of the F-35 as it is inferred in that Pakistan forum link. The underlying discussion here is that the F35 is being sighted too many times for it to be intentional. Is the F-35 a flying elephant? Is this why the F-16s were used instead, because of their superior flight agility, it is well know the F-35 is least designed for air combat and missile aversion.

    - Then comes the curious case of a F-35 being taken out by a flying stork! Yes you have all heard that it was some bird, apparently the great debate is that it was either a duck or stork, or at least it was. If you believe the Israelis it was a stork, Israel says it was storks, and two of them at that! Anyway, the truth it seems is something even more worrisome, that the F-35 is truly a flying elephant, so much so, that it was targeted and hit by of all things a S200 system S200 sees, tracks and hits The Flying Elephant (aka F-35).

    It appears the evidence is slowly mounting that the F-35 is not just a liability economically and politically but also militarily. Why else would the Americans and the Israelis be so consumed with worry with S300s. This is why statements made by Israeli officials like those of Hanegbi’s are made, see F35 can not be seen by S300. This does not look like you don’t have worries about S300s, it shows you are VERY WORRIED, about S300s. Of course, what does mean about the real concern that the Americans have about the S400s, and next year the roll out of the super S500s (basically anything from the ground to low orbit in space will be tracked and can be hit, even at hypersonic speeds—wow!).

    Thus, does this explain why Israeli is NOT using F-35s any more on Syria?

    So, is the F-35 really a flying elephant?

    • Replies: @Gordo
  74. El Dato says:
    @Hanoodtroll

    Syria, equipped with Soviet gear and Arab command & control mentality: p0wned!

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  75. Moi says:
    @Liam

    Nothing reasonable about allying with the wimpy, double-dealing Putin.

  76. Moi says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Putin makes our Trump look a real man and the superior chess player.

  77. TG says:

    Minor quibble: Israel is the last openly racist regime? I don’t think so.

    How about Mexico? In order to become a citizen of Mexico you need to be an ethnic Mexican. Illegal immigrants are summarily deported. Spanish is the official language and if you visit Mexico and are arrested, and you can’t afford to pay for an interpreter out of your own pocket, too bad.

    And how about Japan?

    And how about China?

    I could go on. You get the idea.

  78. JamesinNM says:

    Christ will take care of all evil, including evil Israelis, at the final judgement.

    • Replies: @Stonehands
  79. Z-man says:

    What the Syrians need and the Russians also are SSM’s that can target Zionist airbases.

  80. Z-man says:
    @renfro

    I had the same misgivings about the F 35 however it has matured well in the last two years, especially when the Italians pushed the envelope by being the first to fly the plane across the Atlantic. I’ve seen it now on many videos and it seems to fly and maneuver quite nicely.
    Unfortunately the Jews have it too. (Angry face)

  81. Some of the commenters have gone off on the wrong track. The most cost-effective way to “take-out / neutralize” the described mobile S-300 radar detection and missile launch units is not from up in the air but by simply deploying traditional proxy ground forces equipped with battery powered drones, assault rifles, hand grenades, and pistols in coordinated subterfuge operations.

  82. Wish a lot of success to the syrian air defense in the case there are illegal and planned military jets from other countries in their air space.

    Because Israel isn’t also accepting uninvited visitors from outside.

  83. @Alfa158

    Electorates are irrelevant. They are controlled by psyops like 9/11, or like the Liberty (which would have been blamed on Egypt but was aborted because of the appearance of a Soviet “trawler.”) Electorates can only vote for phony choices and have been proven to be the most controllable form of the masses. Dictator’s delight. How often are dictators voted out of office?

  84. @Dungo jay

    That is why nobody is worried.

  85. anon[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Moi

    Trump is winning at home but Trump ( USA ) losing it abroad . His losses include ME, Iran sanction, EU’s position on creating alternatives to SWIFT for payment, Turkey and India buying Russian S -400 , US is thinking of issuing waiver to countries who will buy Iranian oil, Venezuela’s political continuity , Argentina going down the tube , Mongolia participating with Russia and China in military drills, NK still enjoying same January 2018 situation but doing business with China Russia and now S K, SK going off the reservations . The war is so bad in Afghanistan that the mercenary deployment is being thought of and being discussed openly. Saudi sold US to cheap oil possibility to get JCOPA annulled only to screw US at gas pump.

    Not bad .

    • Replies: @Moi
  86. @Quartermaster

    Oh, you mean NATO shot it down and blamed it on somebody else. Haven’t you ever done that while playing with the other children? I am sure you have.

  87. @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Sadly, none of this is going to work. There is only solution.

  88. Gordo says:
    @Dorian

    In fact Beirut air traffic control, detect F-35s on a regular basis,

    So Beirut ATC is using a military radar with skin tracking?

    • Replies: @Dorian
  89. @Moi

    lol I wouldn’t go that far! Imagine a toddler, sitting in the driver’s seat of a car. He is flapping his arms and wants to go somewhere, but has no idea how. His legs are so short, he cannot reach the gas pedal.

    This is your Trump.

    • Replies: @Moi
  90. @Quartermaster

    What a charming 1950′s sort of Red Neck intellectual. Straight out of L’il Abner.

  91. @El Dato

    I concur that S300 is probably to complex piece of equipment for the Arabs to operate. Which is why Russian military should engage Israelis directly. No more Putinist “partnership” idiocy.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  92. @renfro

    That is why they assassinated John F. Kennedy. He said the same thing.

  93. Moi says:
    @anon

    A greedy lout like Mr. T should never have been elected. Speaks volumes about us.

    • Replies: @liljoe
  94. @Michael Kenny

    You are sad now, but the result will be the same.

  95. Moi says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Not my Mr. T. I would not vote for him for dog-catcher.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  96. anon[388] • Disclaimer says:
    @Michael Kenny

    Consolation prize for Sheldon Dinosaur and his spawns He is not watching the meteor barreling down on its way to his ass.

  97. Winston2 says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    You got halfway there.
    Israel is out of pottable water,for Israel its all about occupying S. Lebanon and retaining control
    of the Golan Heights.Cutting the Shia crescent supply line and Balkanizing Syria is their objective.
    The River Jordan used to be a mighty river even 100 years ago,now its a stream in comparison.
    Its the big secret hidden in plain view.

    • Agree: renfro
  98. Dorian says:
    @Gordo

    @Gordo

    Gordo, to answer your question I can only say that the radar signature of the F-35 is showing up not because of any failure of its stealth properties based upon the plane’s surface materials (i.e. its skin) but because, as I understand it, that the signal is intermittent and that means that the F-35 through just its overall size (it is a very bulky jet) that at certain angles and moments those angles and when they meet ORDINARY radar signals, the jet shows up on the radar screens. Thus you would think if you’re an experienced radar operator you’d think signals like that mean that its an aircraft trying to elude being seen but can’t because of an inherent design flaw.

    That’s why there is a massive discussion going on all around the world, on military forums, about the F-35. Never mind the serious avionics system architecture problems, like the Block 3F (responsible for the target acquisition and destroying) which was developed with C++ code (the most idiotic thing I ever head of, using C++ for hard real-time mission critical embedded systems control) and is central to many of the F-35s problems, the serious topic of discussion is JET DESIGN FLAW, by poor engineering.

    This is the problem with much of US military hardware showing up lately. Much of US hardware has never really been tested in real combat situations. For instance, when the US demands a “No Fly Zone”, what the US military is saying, is that they don’t trust their hardware going up against anyone else’s, so they demand to be sheltered from embarrassment.

    Unlike Russian hardware which is being tested continually in Syria. There are many strange stories coming out of Syria of some seriously “strange hardware” moving around the battlefield. Things like autonomous mini tanks working together and unusual missile sightings.

    The Russians are working on things, like the Americans. But the difference is, unlike the Americans, the Russians are testing their hardware in REAL war, not war games in the back yard of Lockheed Martin. The Russians have a design to war process, whereas the Americans have a design to “use only if not used in war” concept.

    So the question remains, why is the F-35 only seen in non lethal to itself situations? Israel, is only bragging about the F-35, like everyone else. But NO ONE, is prepared to put them in S300 (or even S200), S400 ranges. Why? THE F-35 WAS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO BE INVISIBLE FROM THE S300 AND S400! Why is it being protected from them?

    And what happens next year? When the S500 is rolled out, and the Su-57 with is special armaments, like hypersonic missiles that can shoot down opposing jets from 400km away! Some say even 450km! That is twice the range that anything the F-35 can shoot at. If you don’t believe that, check out the specs, there is enough in English all over the web to read about. But much more in Russian.

    But one thing is for sure. Something is up. Seriously, there is something very non-military going on with the F-35. I don’t think it is too much of stretch to call it The Flying Elephant.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  99. liljoe says:
    @Moi

    Yawn. Trump is mean. Trump is greedy. Trump is a p****y grabber. Trump is Hitler. Trump is a puppet.
    Retarded media talking points w zero basis in reality.
    Much of Trump’s foreign policy has been derailed by the Russia investigation/hoax. If he had followed his instincts from the start it would be a different story. The next few years will be more aligned w his campaign Maga agenda.

  100. @Moi

    You would vote for everybody, so long as they have letter ‘R’ attached to them. ;)

    • Replies: @Moi
  101. @Frederick V. Reed

    Stealth technology makes targets more difficult to detect, but not invisible. Advanced radar systems like those Russia is assumed to have may have already rendered stealth technology obsolete.

  102. @Cyrano

    Syria is going to turn into jihadi heaven? It’s going to turn into Libya post Gaddafi and into Iraq post Hussein. Again, the blame lies with the Arabs, without them the twin duo will not have an opening into Syria.

    The above could have easily been lifted directly from the neocon’s playbook. Take a look at Libya, Iraq & Yemen, with the same planned for Syria.

  103. bigmack says:

    @doran
    maybe the F-35 is going to be dropping a different kind of weapon

    https://friendsofsyria.wordpress.com/

    • Replies: @Dorian
  104. Moi says:
    @Felix Keverich

    You got wrong number. I’m one of those who’d rather bitch than vote to no effect. bye!

  105. Vidi says:
    @Hanoodtroll

    That was then (more than thirty years ago). The S-300 is now.

    Things change; at one time, the U.S. had over 50% of global GDP. Not any more.

  106. Vidi says:
    @FB

    Very informative, thanks.

    • Replies: @FB
  107. Vidi says:
    @AWM

    FB, get real man. Any target on the ground is indefensible, no matter how many of your vaunted S-400 to S-750s you surround it with. If it isn’t hidden, very very well hidden, it’s dead, period.

    At what cost?

    There is more than one way to skin a cat.

    There’s also more than one way to go bankrupt. The S-300 is very cost effective. What will the Anglo Zionists do to beat it?

  108. FB says:
    @Hanoodtroll

    ‘Handtroll’ issues this challenge…

    ‘Explain this’…

    The subject being ‘Operation Mole Cricket’ in 1982, when the Israeli air force mounted a successful SEAD operation [suppression of enemy air defenses] against Syria’s Russian made SAMs…

    I will quote from the 1989 issue of Air Power Journal the USAF premier professional publication…

    ‘Syrian SAM operators also invited disaster upon themselves. Their Soviet equipment was generally regarded as quite good; Syrian handling of it was appalling.

    As noted by Lt Gen Leonard Perroots, director of the US Defense Intelligence Agency, “The Syrians used mobile missiles in a fixed configuration; they put the radars in the valley instead of the hills because they didn’t want to dig latrines — seriously.”

    The Syrian practice of stationing mobile missiles in one place for several months allowed Israeli reconnaissance to determine the exact location of the missiles and their radars, giving the IAF a definite tactical advantage on the eve of battle.

    Even so, the Syrians might have been able to avoid the complete destruction of their SAM complex had they effectively camouflaged their sites; instead, they used smoke to “hide” them, which actually made them easier to spot from the air.

    It is ironic that the Syrians, who have been criticized for their strict adherence to Soviet doctrine, chose to ignore the viable doctrine that emphasizes the utility of maneuver and camouflage.

    According to a 1981 article in Soviet Military Review, alternate firing positions, defensive ambushes, regular repositioning of mobile SAMs to confuse enemy intelligence, and the emplacement of dummy SAM sites are fundamental considerations for the effective deployment and survivability of ground-based air defenses.’

    That excerpt from Air defense expert Dr Carlo Kopp…

    We note here also that the highly effective Serb air defense in 1999, which stymied a huge force of over 1,000 Nato aircraft for 78 days, did exactly those things that are mentioned here…and which the Syrians failed to do…

    But of course there is more to the story…much much more…

    You see, that wikipedia article that ‘Handtroll’ links to has a section called ‘Background’…

    And that background is that in previous years the Israeli air force had been thoroughly pasted by the same Syrian and Egyptian air defenses…Mole Cricket was Round 2…round 1 having been a much bigger win for the air defenses…

    As Kopp recounts…

    ‘It is widely acknowledged that the Israelis suffered heavy losses of aircraft during the fighting in 1973. Exactly how many were lost to SAMs, and to which type of SAM, has been less well documented. Israeli public claims are that 303 aircraft were lost in combat…

    The same wikipedia article that ‘Handtroll’ points to says this…

    ‘The losses suffered by Israel in the 1973 war were so high that it indirectly spawned the United States stealth aircraft program, Project HAVE BLUE.

    The U.S. estimated that without a solution to the SAM problem, even the United States would suffer depletion of its Air Force within two weeks of a conflict erupting between the U.S. and Soviet Union. The Israelis had lost 109 aircraft in 18 days.’

    The Kopp article Surface to Air Missile Effectiveness in Past Conflicts is a good historic breakdown that contrasts the very effective use of Soviet air defense in Vietnam, where the US lost 10,000 aircraft [including 31 B52 strategic bombers]…and the various Middle East conflicts where the Arab air defense forces put up a generally spotty record, using the same equipment…

    The collapse of the extensive Iraqi air defense system in Desert Storm in 1991 is a textbook case…although here it is worth noting that a significant factor was that the Iraqi integrated air defense system, KARI [Irak spelled backward] was designed and built by the French, integrating both Soviet and French SAMs into one central network…

    ‘Planning for this mission was helped when the CIA contacted the French engineer responsible for designing the Kari IADS and passed along information about its vulnerabilities and limitations.’

    The main takeaway from a historical review of air defense versus attacking air power is that human competence is always the overriding factor on both sides…just one year after the well-planned and executed Israeli Mole Cricket, the US decided to launch an air raid on Syrian SAMs, which ended in disaster…

    ‘Despite official statements, however, the first direct combat in Lebanon between the United States and Syria was both a military and political disaster.

    Two of the U.S. planes were shot down either by anti-aircraft rounds and/or approximately forty SAMs; one pilot was killed, another was captured by Syrian forces, and another parachuted safely into the Mediterranean Sea. (The hostage pilot, Lieutenant Robert Goodman, Jr., was held and interrogated in a Syrian prison for thirty days until Reverend Jesse Jackson secured his release.)

    Clearly the US raid was poorly planned and ill conceived…and they got a beating for their efforts…

    So clearly the human factor always counts for the most…statistics from the history of air combat show that 10 percent of pilots score 90 percent of the kills…the ‘hawks’…while that other 90 percent end up as the victims…

    That is not to say that technological advance does not play a role…clearly it does…by the early 1980s a number of SEAD technologies matured that had a big impact in swinging the pendulum back in favor of air power…these include standoff jamming pods carried by specialized SEAD aircraft and which targeted the SAM radars…properly used, these could degrade radar performance enough to tilt the contest…

    Other significant advances occurred in anti-radiation missiles designed to home in on the radio emissions from SAM radars…as well as airborne emitter locators that could pinpoint radar locations when those were switched on…all of these tools, in the right hands, could make a big difference, as they did in Mole Cricket…

    But military technology is usually a game of leapfrogging…the air attacker gains made by the 1980s with jammers and Harms were countered by the 1990s with fundamentally new and much more powerful radars known as ‘phased array’…

    Instead of a parabolic ‘dish’ antenna, these radars use a flat surface containing numerous [up to thousands] of ‘radiating elements’ controlled by a computer that can do things that conventional radar cannot…this includes much higher beam resolution…the ability to track numerous targets at once…the ability to efficiently eliminate ground clutter for low flying objects…and most important the ability to defeat jamming by means of ‘frequency hopping’ and reducing radio emissions to the side and rear…

    At the same time, the US has NOT developed new generations of SEAD weapons…the same AN/ALQ99 jamming pod used since the Vietnam war is the front line unit today…a jammer is basically a radio emitter, using an antenna and electrical power to send radio waves at a target radar in an attempt to disrupt it…by necessity, being carried aloft by an aircraft, the jamming pod is limited in terms of antenna size and available electrical power…

    Here we see an AN/AL99 pod under the wing of a Grumman EA6B ‘Prowler’…the small wind turbine at the front supplies electrical power and the transmit antenna inside is a simple small dish type…against the big Russian SAM radars [even assuming the jamming aircraft could get close enough to actually do anything]…it is like a mosquito versus an elephant…

    –A Russian phased array radar on an all terrain tracked chassis…

    The next generation US jammer is still in development and is not expected to come online for another three years…even then it will probably be too little too late…basic physics tells us that radio is all about electrical power and antenna size…considering also the standoff capability of modern Russian SAMs [over 400 km]…plus the fact that those ground assets are also protected by fighter aircraft, AWACS etc…the advantage has definitely shifted in favor of air defense…as Kopp notes in his article, Surviving the Modern Integrated Air Defense System

    ‘The reality of evolving IADS technology and its global proliferation is that most of the US Air Force combat aircraft fleet, and all of the US Navy combat aircraft fleet, will be largely impotent against an IADS constructed from the technology available today from Russian and, increasingly so, Chinese manufacturers.

    If flown against such an IADS, US legacy fighters from the F-15 through to the current production F/A-18E/F would suffer prohibitive combat losses attempting to penetrate, suppress or destroy such an IADS.

    This is not news to military professionals…retired USAF Gen Philip Breedlove…former Nato commander for Europe…notes…

    ‘Right now, we’re almost completely dependent on air forces and aviation assets in order to attack the A2/AD problem…

    We need more long-range, survivable, precision strike capability from the ground…We need dense capability—like the dense A2/AD networks that we face.’

    A2/AD meaning the ‘anti-access/area denial’ zones created by Russian air defense netorks…

    That pretty much sums it up…the physical equation has tilted far in favor of the massive electronic power and firepower that those all terrain mobile SAMs can muster…versus what an aircraft can take aloft…what Breedlove is saying here is it’s time to go back to the drawing board and figure out a new way…air power alone is not going to cut it…

    • Replies: @Hanoodtroll
  109. Still trying to learn if these 300s (whether new or old) solve the stated problem:

    deny attackers the ol’ hide behind the larger russian plane trick – wasnt this the problem to be solved.

    do these weapons plug this defensive hole ?

    • Replies: @Avery
  110. @FB

    Thank you for yet another excellent post from you! Your invaluable contributions have vastly expanded my own knowledge of these topics and have found permanent places in my bookmarks.
    Bravo!

    • Replies: @FB
  111. Dorian says:
    @bigmack

    First of all, my name Dorian; Doran originates from Gaelic, while Dorian originates from Greek. And it is my real name, I will assume yours isn’t bigmack (or should I just call you McDonalds. Hint hint).

    As for the link, it makes no sense. That was a car bomb, opposing the Turkish suzerainty imposed upon the local Syrian people.

    Furthermore if you’re implying that the F-35 will drop some sort of tactical nuke, you’re out to lunch. Doing so will radiate not only the immediate surroundings, but considering the trade winds in that part of the world, I don’t think Israel and Cyprus will appreciate the radiation winds blowing onto their lands. Especially since there is a British naval base in Cyprus, I think you will find the British too would be mighty unhappy to see that happen. As for the Russians? oh you don’t want to even dream of their response.

    I find it quite humorous there are so many Anglo people who are so quick to ratchet up the war with questionable bravado and imbecilic reactions and logic. Such people are always thinking that the US has always an even higher retaliation response to predicaments that they are finding themselves in if they can’t meet on squarely the awkward positions they find themselves in with their lack of technological, political or economic ability to deal with such problems fairly and honestly.

    The day to use a tactical nuke as threat is long gone. The US has enmeshed itself too much into the geographic, political and economic landscape of the Middle East to use such Neanderthal-like measures to solve serious problems, that are though solvable. Solvable at least for much of the population around the world, except for Israel and the USA, and that’s the problem. They can’t use force to bend everyone else’s will, their way no more. That ship has now sailed.

    Instead of Aleppo, bigmack, I suggest you watch Israel. The next move is Netanyahu’s. He has backed himself (thanks all to some big bravado talk by his ministers) into a corner. In fact, he is damned if do, and damned if he doesn’t. Now the question of the F-35 has been raised, he has to use it or not. If he doesn’t use it, like he says he has, then every single military establishment around the world will know the F-35 is really a Flying Elephant, and is a pile of junk. If he does use it, the Syrians will either shoot it down or not with the S300s. If they shot it down, the F-35 is like I said, a Fly Elephant, and a pile of junk. If they don’t shoot it down, the Russians will be very interested. With their S400s within the same area they will be monitoring every single move of the F-35s. Russian scientists will be very grateful, they should send Netanyahu a Christmas card of thank you for the gift of information.

    Syria is going to sort itself out. Abbas has won. The US has lost. Now its Netanyahu that is in the hot seat.

    In short, Netanyahu has just screwed Israel and the US. From Syria to Iran, everybody is now waiting. Is the F-35 the real thing, or is it just a pile of junk, a Flying Elephant?

    Over to you Netanyahu, time for you to deliver, one way or the other!

    • Agree: Cloak And Dagger
    • Replies: @peterAUS
  112. Vidi says:
    @Quartermaster

    Low radar cross-section can only be defeated by increasing the power radiated from the antenna.

    That isn’t true. As FB noted, “the [low-radar return] shaping can only be optimized for one particular aspect, such as a head-on”. So painting the stealth vehicle from several angles — from the side or from above — should show the aircraft just fine.

    In any case, the S-300 radars radiate more power than the Serbian units that destroyed the F-117. On top of that, the phased-array radars have very small sidelobes, which means they can afford to beam even more power without risking detection by anti-radiation HARMs (which work mostly on sidelobes).

    Going to low frequency creates a radar that is almost useless for targeting guidance.

    Depends on the frequency. Also, the Syrians aren’t going to be stupid enough to use a single unit only. If they aim two radars at you, widely separated, then their data fusion can achieve very high resolution anyway, in spite of the low frequency. In other words, the pilot of your stealth vehicle is dead meat.

    I haven’t bothered reading beyond your first two sentences. The rest of your posting is probably just as bogus, or worse.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Kiza
  113. Avery says:
    @imaginative

    {Still trying to learn if these 300s (whether new or old) solve the stated problem:}

    S-300, like any other military equipment or hardware, is a tool: you need a good, reliable tool, but you also need a trained operator to properly use that tool. And sometimes it is impossible to train someone, if the material is not there.

    SAA in general and Syrian soldiers individually have fought bravely against unbelievable odds.
    To wit, the heroic defense of the Kuweires air base by SAA, which was completely cut-off by the terrorist invaders (and their patrons US, UK, France, Turkey, KSA,….). Yet it held out for 2-3 years until liberated recently.

    But there is something missing from the overall picture to make SAA a truly competent military force able to defend itself and Syria independently against foreign aggressors. There is an article on the web with the title “Why Arabs lose wars” (not sure if it’s the exact title) that examines the reasons. It is worth a read.

    Also, poster [FB] discusses in detail in post #110 some of the differences between various nationalities using Soviet/Russian military equipment.

    Even if Syria were to get the latest Russian anti-air systems (S-400, S-500,….), they’d have to be operated by Russians (or Serbs) to be truly effective against a competent, technologically savvy adversary like Israel. Syrians have their work cut out for them for sure.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @imaginative
  114. FB says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    Thanks for your kind words, Cloak…I have just put up an additional comment in reply to a question here…glad to hear that my efforts at explaining how some of these things actually work are of use to the good folks here on the forum…

    • Replies: @renfro
  115. peterAUS says:
    @Dorian

    They can’t use force to bend everyone else’s will, their way no more. That ship has now sailed.

    with

    Abbas has won. The US has lost.

    Assad has won, you mean.
    “Erebus”? Never mind.

    You guys are really in a bind.
    Seeing Ukraine and Syria as victories for anti Empire forces is an amusing, and a bit sad, case of willful self-delusion.
    I get it when you guys do it as agenda. “Perception management” and such. But, it does seem as plenty of you really believe all that.

    Well….if helps not to get into depression, meds etc, why not?

  116. peterAUS says:
    @Avery

    Pretty much.

    Re
    “Why Arabs lose wars” (not sure if it’s the exact title)
    it’s

    https://www.amazon.com/Arabs-War-Military-Effectiveness-1948-1991/dp/0803287836

    Plus, easy to find recent material about the topic online. Easy.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Anon
  117. One effect of this is to make Israel and the US deploy F35s over Syria. That gives the Russians a good opportunity to study its vulnerabilities.

    Naturally, the same goes for whatever variant of S-300 they have deployed, but the F35 is a $1.4 trillion programme. If, like the F-117A, it is found to be fatally compromised by some new radar technology, it will be a total disaster for NATO.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  118. paulllll says:

    Putin is barely bothering anymore to hide his crony relationship with Netanyahu. It looks like the Russian MOD forced Putin to respond to what Israel did, but Putin will put the finishing touches to whatever climb-down he is planning when he meets Netanyahu. The collusion between Russia and Israel to bomb Iranian and Syrian forces will then continue, probably the very same day, if Netanyahu follows form. Bibi gets a sick pleasure, it seems, from rubbing Putin’s face in his vassalage. No doubt it’s worth it to Putin for reasons that will presumably never see the light of day (might have something to do with oil deals, etc.).

    I suspect that at this point Putin is making a lot of enemies in Russia, because of his blatant collusion with forces that were heavily involved in causing and extending the Syria proxy war, as well as because of Putin’s disrespect for allies, if not outright collusion against them. More acutely, Putin has put Russian soldiers in harm’s way without adequate defense and has consorted with those who killed those soldiers. Maybe people could accept all this ugly stuff as long as they could tell themselves that it was all 11-dimensional global chess; the more people in Russia see that this is really all about crony deals, the more they aren’t going to be happy with Putin.

  119. renfro says:
    @Michael Kenny

    precisely what the Israelis intended.

    The only thing the Israelis have intended was luring the US to open a semi-military base in Israel so they could set up a false flag attack on it to get the USA to fight their wars for them.

  120. renfro says:
    @FB

    I second Cloak & Dagger.

    Correct me if I am wrong but haven’t I seen your contributions at the Col.’s site.

    • Replies: @FB
  121. FB says:
    @renfro

    Thanks Renfro…yes, I hang out Colonel Pat Lang’s excellent blog…definitely a better class of commenters there…the Colonel has a rather short fuse for the kind of whackadoodles we tend to see here…

  122. Avery says:
    @peterAUS

    This is the article I remember reading, not the book.

    [Why Arabs Lose Wars
    NORVELL B. DE ATKINE
    Middle East Quarterly Volume 6: Number 4
    SEPTEMBER 01, 1999]

    https://www.meforum.org/articles/other/why-arabs-lose-wars

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  123. annamaria says:
    @Moi

    Imagine for a sec what this achievement of the Jewish State has done to Fifth Column in Russia.

    The 52 main Jewish organizations in the US have been extremely tolerant (actually, approving) towards the ongoing revival of Nazism in Ukraine and towards the Israeli cooperation with A Qaeda and likes (happy 9/11, Israel!)
    What makes you believe that Russian Jews have the same amazing “flexibility” of morals and actions?

    Without the highly educated alia from Russia, the Jewish State today would be a regular miserable shtettle inhabited by the mediocre folks of the kind that the highly educated German Jews used to despise. (Unfortunately for the US, this law-grade segment of Jewish tribe dominates the ziocon stink-tanks; see Kristolls, Pletkas, Kagans, Perle, Applebaums and similar obnoxious half-wits that are unable to comprehend their own disgusting mental operations).

    Guess, the intelligent Russian Jews need to educate somehow the victims of holo-biz.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Moi
  124. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @peterAUS

    The arabs lose wars ….. just like the americans …… no war won since WWII ( thanks Russia )

  125. annamaria says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Let Syrians defend their sovereignty from the Israeli illegal aggression. This is a Syrian war.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  126. annamaria says:
    @TheJester

    Time is on a side of the Russian Federation. Besides, Russians are not suicidal — as well as the “deciders.”

  127. prusmc says: • Website
    @FB

    I hope FB is working for us. I have no fear that the USAF and Navy will deliver the firepower for Israel better than Schumer, Feinstein, Cardin, Whitehouse, Berkley, Blumenthal and Widen were able to deliver in the Senate.

    • Replies: @FB
  128. annamaria says:
    @Lot

    “Maybe in 2025 Syria will be back to its 1985 level of economic development.”
    – The ancient civilization does deserve the restoration. As for the theocratic upstart with genocidal proclivities — let it perish. The western world will breath freely.

  129. Kiza says:

    The jammer versus air-defence game is truly based on radar antenna side lobes (unwanted property of antennae, looking like petals on a flower). Reducing side-lobes by phased arrays means both increasing the outbound energy and increasing reception sensitivity = detection distance in the desired direction. A very important other factor is the distance between the jammer and the radar to be jammed, because the radio signal power drops at the fourth power of distance 1/d^4, which is huge. BTW, this is why the simplest way to protect yourself from mobile/cellular phone radiation is to keep it at a small distance from you ear.

    To try retain capability against the new generation of air defence with phased array radars everywhere (surveillance, targeting, engagement radars), the US will be putting its new generation jammer on “stealth” planes such as F35 in the hope that “stealth” will allow it to get closer undetected. Obviously, this may still work well only against the older radar antennae with big side lobes and non-integrated air-defence.

    In the shortest, this is why every country in the world is crazy to buy an S400: because it grounds all attack planes including the bumble bee (heavy and poorly manoeuvrable) “stealth” planes. This round of the war technology game goes decidedly to the air-defence. With grounded aviation by Syria and Russia, the Israelis are now fighting the war using chest beating and verbal bluster by trolls in comments.

    Considering the amount of money spent on “stealth”, how easy it was to defeat and the loss of opportunity to develop something that really works, “stealth” appears to have been one of the biggest techno dead ends in history. It will take decades for the airforce to regain dominance over airdefence.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  130. annamaria says:
    @AWM

    The state that is led by a furniture salesman and a nightclub bouncer does not invite much confidence. Plus the Jewish State is drowning in the morasses of theocracy.

    As for “they certainly don’t need anyone’s approval,” this is a childish declaration. Israel’s very existence is contingent upon the power of American Jewish Lobby. While Israel is successful as a parasite, you could boast about your “rights and powers.” As soon as the US crumbles — or the US citizens finally awaken from the slumber and begin taking care of their own children and not the obnoxious genocidal lot of the “chosen” — that would be the end of the lunatic zionist project. The project has began with terrorist actions, it continues with terrorist actions, and it should perish as a terrorist entity.

    Either the concept of Jewish intelligence is totally false or the Jewry worldwide should start mobilizing against the Jewish Power in the D.C.

    • Agree: renfro
    • Replies: @James Speaks
  131. annamaria says:
    @Johnny Rico

    No, Johnny Rico, it is you who needs the re-reading.

  132. Moi says:
    @annamaria

    You’ve put it far better than I could. But I marvel, in fact am totally flabbergasted at how they are able to pull off their at their schtick right under the noses of the goyim. :-)

  133. FB says:
    @Vidi

    Thanks for your comments on the F35 also…some good points…

    • Replies: @Vidi
  134. Kiza says:

    If anyone happens to suggest that US also has phased array radars, on its missile ships and in its Patriot air defence system, this is true but it is US and Israel who want to rule the World and are constantly attacking resistance. Thus, in the most general sense, defence is much more important to the victims of aggression than to the aggressors.

    The weakness of Patriot system, for example, is not in its radars with phased arrays as much as in poorer missiles compared with the latest generation of the Russian super-sonic/hyper-sonic missiles. The export version of S400 probably does not have those latest missiles included, then earlier models.

  135. FB says:
    @prusmc

    My allegiance, for what it’s worth, is to the ‘little guy’ wherever he may call home…you know, the guy that is getting his trousers turned upside down to shake the coin out…and getting his shirt ‘repossessed’ by the guy in the pinstripe suit who carries in his pocket an official license to steal…

  136. peterAUS says:
    @Avery

    Good article. Read it before.

    Interesting, perhaps:

    ….over-centralization, discouraging initiative, lack of flexibility, manipulation of information, and the discouragement of leadership at the junior officer level.

    More to the point:

    In every society information is a means of making a living or wielding power, but Arabs husband information and hold it especially tightly. U.S. trainers have often been surprised over the years by the fact that information provided to key personnel does not get much further than them. Having learned to perform some complicated procedure, an Arab technician knows that he is invaluable so long as he is the only one in a unit to have that knowledge; once he dispenses it to others he no longer is the only font of knowledge and his power dissipates. This explains the commonplace hoarding of manuals, books, training pamphlets, and other training or logistics literature. On one occasion, an American mobile training team working with armor in Egypt at long last received the operators’ manuals that had laboriously been translated into Arabic. The American trainers took the newly-minted manuals straight to the tank park and distributed them to the tank crews. Right behind them, the company commander, a graduate of the armor school at Fort Knox and specialized courses at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds ordnance school, collected the manuals from the crews. Questioned why he did this, the commander said that there was no point in giving them to the drivers because enlisted men could not read. In point of fact, he did not want enlisted men to have an independent source of knowledge. Being the only person who can explain the fire control instrumentation or boresight artillery weapons brings prestige and attention. In military terms this means that very little cross-training is accomplished and that, for instance in a tank crew, the gunners, loaders, and drivers might be proficient in their jobs but are not prepared to fill in for a casualty. Not understanding one another’s jobs also inhibits a smoothly functioning crew. At a higher level it means there is no depth in technical proficiency.

    There is more, of course:

    Thinking outside the box is not encouraged; doing so in public can damage a career.

    Arab junior officers are well trained on the technical aspects of their weapons and tactical know-how, but not in leadership, a subject given little attention.

    Indeed, leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. This problem results from two main factors: a highly accentuated class system bordering on a caste system, and lack of a non-commissioned-officer development program.

    Most Arab officers treat enlisted soldiers like sub-humans.

    Garrison cantonments have no amenities for soldiers. The same situation, in various degrees, exists elsewhere in the Arabic-speaking countries—less so in Jordan, even more so in Iraq and Syria.

    Decisions are made and delivered from on high, with very little lateral communication. This leads to a highly centralized system, with authority hardly ever delegated.

    Etc……

    No amount of Russian, or Alien space technology for that matter, given to “locals” will make any real difference in Syria.
    Russians are in bind there. More they get integrated with “locals”, actually, more vulnerable they’ll become.
    The only solution which would work on preventing further losses of Russian men and material there is, effectively, Russians taking over all that. All.
    Impossible, of course.

    • Replies: @Avery
  137. George1 says:

    I am no expert in this area to be sure. However with the unit price of the F-35s, they are capitol assets. The loss of an F-35 for any reason in a combat zone would be a disaster. Yet Trump is sending more of them to Israel in response to the S-300s.

    This tit for tat escalation is not doing anyone any good and is potentially dangerous beyond words. Syria had not been a threat to Israel in decades, yet Obama thought it was a good idea to try an take out Assad. I would just like to know why.

    • Replies: @PhilK
  138. Kiza says:
    @jimmyriddle

    As far as I understand, the Russians have not turned on any other then the surveillance radar in the S400 complex. Of all the radars in the complex, this one is the least interesting to spy on. The real performance secrets of the system are in other radars. The Russians have not turned on other “action” radars because this would give an opportunity to be studied and because the US and Israeli planes have been declared “friendlies” by Putin.

    The proximity of forces gives both sides opportunities to study procedures and technology and both sides are avoiding showing all their cards. But the shooting down of IL20 may have changed the game a little by giving the Russian military more freedom from the political constraints. If the Russian military does turn on its other radars in the S400 complex, then someone “stealthy” will find himself in the drink, in pieces.

    In other words, the hope is that now the Russian military will be allowed to defend itself. Otherwise, the Russians will keep suffering more Putin-style accidents in Syria.

  139. Avery says:
    @peterAUS

    {The only solution which would work on preventing further losses of Russian men and material there is, effectively, Russians taking over all that. All.
    Impossible, of course.}

    Only Kremlin knows what ‘ preventing further losses of Russian men…..’ implies, but clearly Russia has taken losses from the day they went in and it does not seem to faze them one bit, judging by their responses over the years to various losses they have incurred: they didn’t cut and run.

    And I doubt Russia ever intended to fight Syrians’ wars for them.
    They can’t make SAA into the Wehrmacht (or the Red Army of WW2 1942-1945) for sure.
    But SAA has done quite well with Russian (and Hezbollah and IRG) help*.
    It is an undeniable fact that before Russian AF came in and started cauterizing the cannibal infestation, SAA was on the verge of collapse, and with it the State of Syria. Today what remains of the terrorist invaders is holed up in Idlib: for how long?

    And none of this – i.e. Russia’s involvement, etc – would have been necessary if Syrians were left alone to sort out their own internal affairs. Russia would not be invited in by Syrian government if external forces intend on dismembering and erasing the State of Syria had not started this war. The blood of 100s of 1,000s of innocent Syrian civilians killed in this war is on their hands: US, UK, France, Turkey, KSA, Israel, various other Gulf states,……

    btw: what’s with the quotation marks for “locals” ?
    You don’t consider Syrians local?
    Syria is one of the oldest countries in the region.
    Its composition of people has naturally changed some over the centuries, but Syrians are as local as it gets. And Syria’s Alawites, in particular, have been there for millennia (genealogy-wise).

    ___________
    * Only fair, given the massive support ISIS cannibals and assorted other mass-murdering invaders have gotten from outside.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  140. @TheJester

    The Russians will eventually have to confront Organized Jewry head-on, and they know this. Time is still on their side, however.

  141. @Cyrano

    Not a bad analogy, but I would say Israel is Dr. Evil and America is Fat Bastard.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  142. PhilK says:
    @George1

    Obama thought it was a good idea to try an take out Assad. I would just like to know why.

    Because it would look good on his resumé.

  143. @Alfa158

    Yes. NATO could doubtless drive the Russians out of Syria but only at great cost that they cannot bear politically. At this stage they are doubtless flailing about since they have no other ideas. Israel is furious they can’t get NATO to move, so I would expect them to attempt some kind of major false flag in the West.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Krollchem
  144. @TG

    Not a bad point, but we’re not constantly regaled about how those countries are the only “democracies” in their region who share Western ideals of universalism, etc.

  145. peterAUS says:
    @Avery

    Agree, overall.

    btw: what’s with the quotation marks for “locals” ?

    Iraqis, Syrians, Egyptians, Saudis….:locals”, vs Soviets, Americans, Russians, British, French…..in the region.

    Related to CULTURAL differences in the execution of armed conflict there, the article was talking about.

    In this particular case “local” culture related to efficiency of those weapons systems Saker and the rest of the “Team Russia” are talking about.

    I’ve had personal experience in training some of those “locals” I enumerated above (or so I say).

    I get that amateurs get fixated with weapons systems and this is, fundamentally, civilian site. FREE speech civilian site, but still.
    You go to any site where most of posters have military experience, command in particular,and you’ll see a SLIGHTLY different attitude. Of course, the problem in most of those sites is ….they are heavily moderated….enough said.

    The article and most of favorable comments are focused on the weapon (system). They are, actually, correct, it is a very good piece of hardware/software.
    USING it, properly, in THAT area, is quite another matter.

    And, in this particular case it’s even worse than just “Arabs at war”.
    Add constraints put on the Russian contingent there by the regime in Kremlin and, really, not a big deal.
    The perception that the generals “pushed” Putin is fine. I just don’t buy it.
    One way to find it, and soon, I think.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  146. @Avery

    Thanks for the push – i guess i meant more about the hardware itself.

    can basic 300′s pattern match against radar cross sections or faster filtering (like a kalman filter for a primordial example) or maybe help from GPS ?

    from what i understood of the MoD brief – data makes it look like the S200 + team (whoever they were) was on the job – but the ol shield behind the bigger plane trick worked to switch targets.

    i thought that the idea behind including the S300 in the mix was to be sure that hide/shield wouldnt work a second time.

    Saker seemed to say there is a wide range of tech under the S300 banner – trying to put bookends on capabilities (most primitive version – i am assuming the most advanced 300 version gets a push from satellite or other external resource)

  147. mr meener says:

    saker makes me laugh when he says he could not believe what liars the jews are and how incompetent. they achieved their mission. either he is a liar OR he is incompetent. the jews have been liar thieves and murderers for 3000 years. and what saker cant understand is the jews don’t care how many goyim they kill to achieve their objectives. to them there is no difference in dead Russians or Syrians. as long as they are dead gentiles. as far as the new missile threat the jews look at it as a way to draw in the US if they lose a number of planes

    • Replies: @Kiza
  148. @liljoe

    It was derailed because Trump has the spine of a jelly fish. Not until Trump’s voting bloc unequivocally demands that Trump pull the US Military out of Syria and the Middle East. Then maybe Trump will pull the US Military out of Syria. I would like to think you are right…but in my heart and in my soul….I detect a morally weak man in Trump.

  149. @imaginative

    The Russian Military isn’t going to announce what algorithms they are using….

    The gross incompetence of Syrian Air Defense Operators…FB’s main point I believe….has always seemed highly plausible to me…

    • Replies: @imaginative
  150. Agent76 says:

    24.02.2017 Russia’s T-90MS Cutting Edge MBT Offers Bright Prospects

    IDEX is the only international defense exhibition and conference in the Middle East, North Africa region. It takes place every two years in Abu Dhabi, the UAE, since the inauguration in 1993. Russia has taken part in all 13 IDEX events, including the 2017 exhibition held on Feb. 19-23. This year, Russia exhibited more than 240 weapons and military equipment for all branches of armed forces, many of which showed high combat effectiveness in Syria. The T-90MS Tagil main battle tank stood out as a big success.

    http://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2017/02/24/russia-t90ms-cutting-edge-mbt-offers-bright-prospects.html

  151. Cyrano says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    And who are the Russians? Austin Powers? International men of mystery? They could be. Also, according to some accounts from the closing stages of WW2 in Germany, some German ladies found out that the Russians can be quite shagadelic. I am sorry, I know I am being an a-hole, I just couldn’t help it.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  152. Kiza says:
    @Kiza

    To comment on Saker’s article and also make my previous comments a bit clearer, all the braying in the Western media as well as even Russian media is about S300(s), maybe in plural. But this is mostly because the Israelis want to squeeze more money out of the US tax donkeys and get more of the latest armaments for nothing, as usual.

    The real change in Syria is not S300, the real change would be the changed rules of engagement for the Russian force, that is a permission to defend themselves even if it costs the lives of the members of the terrorism sponsoring nations (Israel and all of the West). There is a big difference between provoking the enemy and defending yourself.

    After they did the old trick of drawing enemy’s fire onto its own or allied troops, the Israeli planes remained circling over the Mediterranean for almost 40 minutes. This is the time when the S400 complex should have engaged at least one, that Israeli plane which drew the AA fire onto Russian IL20. If the rules of engagement were right, any sane country would have done that. Explanations=lies naturally come later, Israeli story would have been of victims, as always, but the Russians troops would sleep easier knowing that the enemy will not keep making pot shots at them.

    Otherwise, I thought that if the Israelis were to place a Jewish banker in one of their bombers, they could bomb anything they like inside Syria and maybe even Russia, if Putin were the only one to decide.

    In other words, a smart strategy is to not provoke the enemy and play it safe, because time is on your side. But also to quickly respond to any enemy provocation which costs lives on your side, just to illustrate the cost of escalation to the other side. The “great leader” Putin left the total and costless escalation dominance to the enemy and thus made the Russian Military into clay pigeons in a Syrian shooting gallery. As long as they package the killing of Russians into some sort of border breach (Turkey) or accident (Israel), the Russians will lick their bloody chops and do nothing.

    I now strongly suspect that Putin is one of those champions of the Satan’s spawn (as Rurik calls it), who is purposefully idolized by the global Jewish media in a push-pull arrangement: demonized in the West whilst idolized in the East, a faux champion of the global masses downtrodden by USrael and the global Jewish mafia. Putin is currently the best gig on the planet, much more successful than Obomber and Trumpo.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  153. Kiza says:
    @mr meener

    You are losing sight of the fact that the Israelis need to lose planes and pilots to draw-in US, whilst they are famous for wanting to sacrifice for greater good (LOL).

    The Israelis just want more free gear from the US tax donkeys and are waiting for Putin to relax the rules of engagement, to then continue on with another 200 bombings, plus a good number of dead Russians as a cream on the cake.

  154. annamaria says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    “Israel is furious they can’t get NATO to move, so I would expect them to attempt some kind of major false flag in the West.”

    Let see how well the Israelis with Russian upbringing would take massive deaths of their relatives in Russian Federation IF their brainless Israeli government decides to arrange a major false flag against Russia.

  155. annamaria says:
    @peterAUS

    “Add constraints put on the Russian contingent there by the regime in Kremlin…”

    — Still peddling your “regime in Kremlin?” How about the “regime in Tel Aviv?”
    Your hatred for Russians is so visceral that it affects your mental operations. Next goes your visceral hatred for your Arab cousins.

    • Replies: @hunor
  156. @FB

    Thanks for the detailed response. Appreciated.

    So if I am getting this right, IADS vs SEAD competition has gone back and forth over the last 50 years with one side pulling ahead sometime and sometime the other. Well, I guess in the coming days we are going to find out in Syria how the most advanced IADS performs against the most advanced jet. That is, without triggering WW3, hopefully.

  157. annamaria says:
    @Kiza

    Perhaps you are right. Or perhaps there is a reason why one of you two uses a pseudonym and another is a president of a recovering nation.

    What would be your solution? To answer with a justified killing? Sure. Israelis well deserve the worst, including the deaths among their most amoral. What would be next? The escalation of the war against Syria and, as a consequence, the opening of the southern borders of Russia for the US-trained “moderate” terrorists? — Not good. At least, the situation in Idlib proceeds according to a sane plan. Moreover, judging from the MSM squealing, Knesset is not happy with the turn of events in Syria. Let’s observe calmly the effect of new Russian attitude in Syria. The Russian Federation needs time for strengthening.

    As for the Jewish State, its survival depends totally on the Jewish Lobby. And the Jewish Lobby has been very effective at delegitimizing itself through the assault on the freedom of speech (re BDS and other “antisemitism” nonsense) and by tacitly tolerating (and even encouraging) the revival of Nazism in Ukraine. The Holo-biz is dying. The popular disgust towards Israel (and by extension towards the Jews at large) has been growing. People are getting the idea that he “chosen” are always ready for Purimization of “others.”

    .

    • Replies: @Kiza
  158. hunor says:
    @annamaria

    The Arabs are not they cousins , They are they semitic brothers.
    Childrens of Abraham.

  159. It is always refreshing to read your analyses. I’m hoping to see more of the Pantsirs too and Buk missiles you refer to. The S-300 along with EW though should put a damper on things for the Zionists in as much as despite the rhetoric to the contrary I think the USA at least does fear their expensive jets will be shot down and I doubt the US wants its most expensive boondoggle in history being shot down by an aging Russian system which means the Izzies will be on a leash.

  160. Annunaki says:
    @FB

    What an outstanding, factual and comprehensive comment, you sir have owned all the muppet know nothings in one foul swoop, I tip my hat to you

  161. @TG

    None of those states are “openly racist” in the sense they celebrate their racism as the Zionists do. There is no system even remotely like an apartheid in those places either. I agree they are all racist societies though and there are many Asian societies which are very racist as well. Ironically these days white westerners tend to be the least racist of all and what racism exists is largely a result of perceived immigration grievances. That doesn’t include “Israel” it really is the cockroach in the Western pie.

  162. Kiza says:
    @Vidi

    Several of your statements are not strictly true. Even your hero FB has said that stealth depends on three distinct techniques:
    1) the edge dispersion (probably best described as some optimal shape of the edges on a plane that can reverse the phase and thus cancel a part of the incoming radio wave),
    2) replacing all round surfaces with flat surfaces (which tend to reflect radio signals mostly in one direction, which is not back to the receiver, instead of dispersing the signal so that some part of energy gets back into the radar receiver), and
    3) radio absorbing materials (rubbery foam which makes the stealth plane so bulky).
    Therefore your statement:

    the [low-radar return] shaping can only be optimized for one particular aspect, such as a head-on”. So painting the stealth vehicle from several angles — from the side or from above — should show the aircraft just fine

    is not exactly clear. A “stealth” plane is stealthy from all angles, but yes it cannot be optimised for all angles. When Lockheed claims that F22 has the radar cross section of a soccer ball, this applies only to the forward attack angle, but it still has “stealth” (reduced RCS) under all other angles just not as good. Obviously, a “stealth” plane is optimised for low observability by other planes but less so by ground radar, because the worst possible angle is when an F22 overflies a radar. Then only 1) and 3) work in its favor, whilst 2), that is totally flat surfaces are working against it. Yet, 1) and 2) would still reduce its RCS when compared with ordinary plane. Whether that is “just fine” or not is the question that both sides are hanging onto, I am not sure I could be as definite as you.

    As I have explained above, to my knowledge the Serbians did not use a radiating radar to shoot-down one/two F117. They used a passive radar, which does not emit at all, it only receives a rough and noisy location of the stealth plane. However, the predictability of the F117 path allowed them to launch and hand-guide multiple missiles towards F117, where they expected it to be. In other words, they did manually what the targeting and engagement radars do automatically – locate the target in three dimensions. I think that those very old missiles had proximity fuses, thus were perfectly suitable for manual guidance – one needed to bring them close only in two of the three dimensions. Even if it cost 10 missiles for each F117, the cost of one F117 was probably still at least 100 times higher. Lockheed claimed that Serbians used 30 missiles, which is an irrelevant MIC lie because it was supposed to be stealth=undetectable no matter how many missiles.

    In military technology, one new technology often aims to defeat another new technology, but someone with lateral thinking outside of box, can defeat the new technology with old technology surprisingly easy.

    Finally,

    the phased-array radars have very small sidelobes, which means they can afford to beam even more power without risking detection by anti-radiation HARMs (which work mostly on sidelobes)

    . This is again a miss-statement. HARM missiles have sensitive receivers and any sidelobes are sufficient to aim them toward the radar. It is the jammers which become significantly less effective when antenna sidelobes are low. However, it is mainly the distance that really makes a difference. If the radar can detect a plane with HARM missiles through its main lobe before the plane gets within the flight range of its HARM missile (which has nothing to do with sidelobes that HARM may use to navigate itself) then the plane will be destroyed before it can launch its HARMs. By reducing the detection range, “stealth” helps a little with this as well, but we would have to wait for HARMs with a range maybe three times the current model’s.

    Obviously, US is working on such anti-S400 and anti-S500 HARMs, but its main military doctrine against those system has been “saturation attack by networked missiles”, so that some get through.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @FB
    , @Vidi
  163. @annamaria

    The Arabs are literally too dumb to utilise S300. Their average IQ is like 80 or something.

    This is how Syrians wasted Pantsyr, that Russia gifted to them.

    • Replies: @anon
  164. Kiza says:
    @annamaria

    Well, we do have a disagreement, obviously on Putin. I do agree with you on most of what you have written above, but you like many other pro-Russians are missing the point about standing your own ground and shooting back in self defence.

    I have been very clear that I am strictly against revenge, because two wrongs do not make a right.

    You say that Russia needs more time, but a target of aggression is never ever ready for a war. As PCR says, the Russians really do not understand others, they are afraid to defend themselves because this may provoke the enemy to do an even bigger attack, whilst the reality is totally opposite – by not defending themselves they are encouraging the enemy to attack more. If a global nuclear war starts, the Russians will probably be even more guilty than US because of encouraging US to do the First Strike.

    Anyway, it is no skin off my nose until such thing starts. Do it the Putin’s way, it may be some kind of win in the end, but then a fair number of Russians will end up underground and on commemorative photos. Given enough time, US may start a civil war and stop assisting Jews in their criminal activities. Let us hope this or a financial collapse happens before a global nuclear war.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  165. @Cyrano

    The Russians would be Ivana Humpalot.

  166. @Dorian

    THE F-35 WAS SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO BE INVISIBLE FROM THE S300 AND S400! Why is it being protected from them?

    F-35 was not “specifically designed”. It was stated that it was “specifically designed” for the consumption of lay public. It is a mediocre aircraft which flies like a brick with its “juice” to be stated in its avionics suite and weapons it is supposed to carry.

    The Russians are working on things, like the Americans. But the difference is, unlike the Americans, the Russians are testing their hardware in REAL war, not war games in the back yard of Lockheed Martin.

    Even when not in the actual combat, Soviet/Russia’s test methods are superior since are honed based on a gigantic sample space of an actual combat, in this particular case, of air defense systems which saw very extensive combat use and provided vast invaluable data. A lot in testing approaches remains highly classified and for a good reason. You can easily find numbers involved in tests for a few weapon systems Russia deploys today. Test launches reach in many hundreds.

  167. @hunor

    If you so knowledgeable , why don’t you respond to FB on his theory

    For the same reason of why I do not comment on USS Memphis “sinking” K-141 Kursk. Substantial parts of my next book are specifically dedicated to these matters. I am not trying to sell it to you but I would suggest to get it, once it is out. Plus, of course, what is called “tracing paper copy of maneuvering” is usually a highly classified matter not for lay public’s attention.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @hunor
  168. @Kiza

    but its main military doctrine against those system has been “saturation attack by networked missiles”, so that some get through.

    It is pretty much everyone’s doctrine since one has to literally leak into (through) the defense barriers. Operations of Soviet MRA (Naval Missile-carrying Aviation) against CBGs in GIUK were pretty much based on saturation strikes, which in 1970s called for up to two regiments of TU-22s with X-22 to sink one CBG. Today, of course, these numbers are dramatically lower due to new capabilities. US was hunting desperately for S-300 sample and got it from Belarus (at least some parts of it), namely S-300V from one of its AD academies in early 2000s. It definitely helped in terms of hardware but not in mathematics, which is crucial, especially with new processing capabilities, which came around precisely in mid-1990s. Another matter, that US is known for a malignant practice of augmented “tests” and exercises which go against every single basic military truism that weapons are honed in the worst, not the best of conditions. Professor Roger Thompson dedicated the whole book to this atrocity:

    https://www.usni.org/store/books/clear-decks-50-90/lessons-not-learned

    It is a shocking book for all kinds of fanboys who grew up on Tom Clancy fairy tails. The same as it is shocking for them and many American professionals who operate in an open (non-classified) public realm when they have to address real Russia’s capabilities.

  169. @Kiza

    the Russians really do not understand others, they are afraid to defend themselves because this may provoke the enemy to do an even bigger attack, whilst the reality is totally opposite

    Well, it is obviously patently wrong but I am sure that local “professionals” on these discussion boards are well-versed in the decision-making process in Kremlin and have access to highly classified briefings of General Staff and SVR.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  170. EugeneGur says:
    @AWM

    Israel is the 800 pounder in the region with more strike options than everybody else combined.

    Until someone stops it, and Israel is rapidly approaching the point when someone will have to. True, Russia isn’t particularly eager to engage with Israel but it takes only one side to start a fight. However reluctant to start a fight, when Russia is forced to do so, it sure know how to fight and that “800 pounder” of your won’t know what hit it. Fighting with the Russians isn’t not the same as killing unarmed Palestinian boys.

    Sure, Russia won’t do anything stupid – this is prerogative of the other side. As we say, the limit on the madness is all used up by our opponents, so we have to be sane. However, that stunt with Il-20 was stupid in the extreme, and, judging by the previous experience, Israel is very likely to pay for it one way or the other. From no on, buddy, you do need the approval.

  171. @War for Blair Mountain

    Thanks War – good point on sensitivity of details…

    I am willing to assume that the latest (in time) of the S300 can do what was claimed by MoD:

    prevent targets from successfully hiding/shielding behind friendlies.

    The article mentions that the earliest version came out in the 1970′s ? Surely whatever secrets involved are known by now (more than 40 years) and i suppose a number of folks hanging around here must have had experience with operating it?

    Author mentions looking to wikipedia ? I am assuming that is an inside joke : )

  172. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Felix Keverich

    What was the IQ of White evangelical Christians and Bush 2 supporters ? What is the IQ of the same Evangelic now and that of Trump Supporters?

    Their lives get destroyed everyday , their beliefs are humiliated everyday and their future gravitate to the utopian future of Nazi esque Eschatology but highly favored by Zionist ( Now is not a problem . But people will be called anti-Semite if the Zionists are ever reminded of the collusion between them and the neo Nazi Christian Evangelical ) .

  173. FB says:
    @Kiza

    ‘…to my knowledge the Serbians did not use a radiating radar to shoot-down one/two F117. They used a passive radar, which does not emit at all, it only receives a rough and noisy location of the stealth plane…’

    This is complete nonsense…once again you choose to pontificate on things in which you have no knowledge…

    In your earlier comment, you identified this ‘passive radar’ allegedly used by the Serbs as the Czech ‘Tamara’ system…which the Serbs did not possess…

    Not only that but this kind of system is not used for guiding SAM shots, and is certainly not any kind of ‘anti-stealth’ weapon…this category of device is known as an emitter locator system [ELS], and is used to listen in on radio emissions from hostile aircraft and to then track them, by means of a number of geometrically deployed antennas that can then triangulate the bearing and direction of the aircraft…

    However, the basic physics involved means that these emitter locators are effective at tracking signals OTHER THAN the aircraft’s onboard radar…this would include the IFF [identification friend or foe transponder signal] and other onboard radio emitters which are OMNIDIRECTIONAL emitters…

    An aircraft radar’s narrow pencil beam could not reach multiple [at least 2] ELS antenna [which would be geographically dispersed] to provide the needed triangulation…

    Once again Dr Carlo Kopp provides an excellent technical overview of ELS systems here…

    ‘…A topic which appears to crop up with monotonous regularity…[is] Warsaw Pact equipment “capable of detecting stealth aircraft”.

    These claims invariably involve either the Czech designed and built Tesla-Pardubice KRTP-86 Tamara or ERA Vera Emitter Locating Systems, or the Ukrainian designed and built Topaz Kolchuga series of Emitter Locating Systems.

    More than often this equipment is described as ‘anti-stealth radar’, ‘radar’ or ‘passive radar’, all of which are completely incorrect.

    Much of everything else you have farted out here regarding the Serb takedown of the F117 is similar bullshit…

    The 3′rd battery of the 250′th Air Defense missile Brigade, commanded by then Lt Col Zoltan Dani killed both F117s [the second one made it back to Aviano, Italy but was scrapped, as USAF Col Riccioni confirms in his F22 report I linked to earlier]…as well as the kill on the F16 of then 555′th squadron Commander, then Lt Col David Goldfein, who, since 2016 happens to be Gen Goldfein and the USAF Chief of Staff…

    Here is Goldfein’s F16 canopy and tail feathers on display at the Belgrade Aviation Museum…

    Incidentally, Col Riccioni mentions in that same report that Goldfein was doing ‘other than what he was supposed to be doing’ when shot down…I guess in today’s USAF that means you have the ‘right stuff’ to become The Chief…

    Also incidentally, the Goldfein kill was overseen by Col Dani’s Deputy Maj Bosko Dotlic, as Col Dani was off duty at the time…

    The point is that that one single S125 battery accounted for ALL the confirmed kills of the Serb IADS in 1999 [although there are many more 'probable' kills that either ditched in the Adriatic, or limped back but were scrapped]…

    This speaks to my earlier point about human competence and the ‘hawks’ and ‘doves’…just like a small fraction of fighter pilots rack up the overwhelming majority of kills…the same goes for air defense commanders, submarine captains, tank commanders etc…

    You have spewed here a whole lot of garbage about ‘secret’ anti-stealth weapons and ‘lucky shots’ etc…which is a complete insult to the historical record and the great work by Col Dani and his men…and to the entire principle of working and training hard to achieve professional competence in a military skill…

    Here is a picture of the side of the 3′rd Battery Command Cabin, with Three kills stenciled in…the F117 [black] on top…a B2 [not confirmed]…and Goldfein’s F16 in white at bottom…

    The battery used the standard SNR125 ‘Low Blow’ engagement radar [1960s vintage technology]…which operates at 9 GHz, so it is NOT a low-frequency radar…proving that low frequency is not necessary to take out ‘stealth’ aircraft…

    As per standard Russian air defense design doctrine, the S125 uses a separate acquisition and tracking radar which DOES operate at a lower frequency…in this case the P15 ‘Flat Face’ which operates in the decimetric wavelength band [which is similar to ATC radar frequency of about 1.2 to 1.4 GHz...ie L band]

    As explained previously the acquisition radar serves to find and track the target at long range…and cues the engagement radar to scan a precise sector where the acquisition radar has found the target…the engagement radar’s increased precision [due to its higher frequency and antenna size] then provides pinpoint accuracy to guide the missile…

    It is this combination of separate radars working together that allows the targeting of low observable aircraft…and what the 3′rd Battery did was a textbook example of using the equipment to its full potential…despite the fact that this old radar technology was in fact susceptible to jamming, which the Nato forces employed massively…

    Col Dani also trained his men hard to be able to disassemble their radar and launchers within 90 minutes and load everything up on trucks and move to another location…he also exercised strict discipline with regard to emissions…allowing the radar to be turned on only for very short bursts at a time…about a minute or two at most…

    This is all textbook Soviet operating procedure and the difference was the exceptional work ethic and competence that Col Dani maintained in his unit…

    It should be noted here that the Serb air defense was in fact very successful overall…war is a game of survival and attrition…and what the Serbs accomplished was noted by air combat practitioners…

    ‘The air campaign over Kosovo severely affected the readiness rates of the United States Air Force’s Air Combat Command during that period. Units in the United States were the most badly affected, as they were were stripped of their personnel and spare parts to support ACC (Air Combat Command) and AMC (Air Mobility Command) units involved in Operation Allied Force.

    The Commander of the USAF’s Air Combat Command, General Richard E Hawley, outlined this in a speech to reporters on 29 April, 1999.[10] Further, many aircraft will have to be replaced earlier than previously planned, as their planned fatigue life was prematurely expended.

    PGM inventories needed to be re-stocked, the warstock of the AGM-86C Conventional Air-Launched Cruise Missile dropping to 100 or fewer rounds.[11] Of the more than 25,000 bombs and missiles expended, nearly 8,500 were PGMs, with the replacement cost estimated at $US1.3 billion.[12]

    Thus the USAF suffered from virtual attrition of its air force without having scored a large number of kills in theatre. Even if the United States’ best estimates of Serbian casualties are used, the Serbians left Kosovo with a large part of their armoured forces intact.

    –Andrew Martin RAAF [retired]

    Incidentally, several years ago the downed USAF pilot Col Dale Zelko, traveled to Serbia to visit the man who shot him down Col Dani…a film The Second Meeting was made…here is a trailer…

    PS…I will have more to say later, as you have littered this thread with all kinds of technically incorrect crapola…

  174. Milton says:

    Well, it looks like Putin bowed to his Israeli masters and supplied Syria with the shit version of the S-300, the S-300PM.

    Another epic fail by the Saker, as he said in this article “For example, a lot has been made from the fact that the Israelis have had many years to study the S-300s delivered to Greece, but what is often overlooked is that the version delivered to Cyprus and which was later re-deployed to Greece was the (relatively outdated) S-300PMU-1. The probability that the Russians would deliver this version to the Syrians is close to zero…”

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Avery
  175. @annamaria

    By 1991 it had become clear that US would not awaken from our slumbers. The plan since then has been to remove the dollar from prominence, and when US can no longer import oil, copper and a few other necessities, the empire will collapse, will take the Rogue State along in the undertow, and the ME will have a chance for peace.

  176. @Milton

    Well, it looks like Putin bowed to his Israeli masters and supplied Syria with the shit version of the S-300, the S-300PM.

    FYI, S-300PM is a domestic version from which export version S-300PMU is derived. It is highly capable, including networking, AD system and it is actually free for Syria. Like in no payment required. But yes, I have a slight ear canal infection currently, I am sure the same Jews who control Putin and Russia have everything to do with this infection too. Nice try, though.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  177. @FB

    However, the basic physics involved means that these emitter locators are effective at tracking signals OTHER THAN the aircraft’s onboard radar…

    Yeah, like principles which were utilized already in 1960s with SPO-3 (good definition of quadrants), or good ol’ SPO-15 Bereza. I have some news (albeit I mentioned it before somewhere in these nauseating fanboys techno threads)–Mineral radar in passive mode not only “track” emitting targets but they provide reliable over-the-horizon targeting (bearing, range) info which allows to use missile strike complexes, such as 3M54 or P-800. They do it by exactly this “basic physics” by collecting ALL kinds of emissions, bogey radar included, and this “basic physics” is highly classified. China, of course, “copied” it and then proclaimed its version superior to Russian original, but we all know that Chinese mil-tech is superior to everyone’s.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Vidi
  178. @Andrei Martyanov

    This clears up exactly nothing. Thanks for taking the time to waste everybody’s time.

  179. @FB

    You and Kiza are both complete idiots.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia

    A simple glance at the numbers and facts show 1000 aircraft flying 30,000+ sorties and driving Serbia to capitulate.

    NATO 3 fighter jets, 2 helicopters and 25 UAVs destroyed; 3 fighter jets damaged
    NATO 2 soldiers killed in non-combat helicopter crash, 3 soldiers captured.

    Some attrition. Hahahaaa! You clown.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @Krollchem
  180. Vidi says:
    @FB

    No, thank you. All I know about this military stuff is what I’ve learned from you and Martyanov. Your articles are much appreciated.

  181. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Yes this category of equipment covers a wide range of capabilities…

    What you mention is actually using this type of equipment to guide a missile shot…and yes, the latest Russian equipment does have this capability…it is conceived as a means of delivering SAM shots and other missile shots under conditions of jamming or anti-radiation missile shots where you want to keep your radars switched off…

    Like I said, these ELS systems are basically ‘ears’ that don’t alert the enemy to their presence, unlike switching on radar…

    The Lantan/Almaz-Antey Valeria E is said to have the capability to track and cue long range SAM systems as well as fighter GCI [ground control intercept]…not sure though if the entire missile shot can be done without actually turning on a radar…

    My point to the gas emitter kiza is that enemy aircraft are not going to be turning on omnidirectional emitters while trying to sneak into hostile airspace…they will be using their onboard radars of course, and today’s Russian ELS equipment may be able to work with that…but that was not the case in 1999…besides which the Serbs did not have that stuff anyway…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  182. Vidi says:
    @Kiza

    A “stealth” plane is stealthy from all angles, but yes it cannot be optimised for all angles. When Lockheed claims that F22 has the radar cross section of a soccer ball, this applies only to the forward attack angle, but it still has “stealth” (reduced RCS) under all other angles just not as good.

    That is what FB said, that no aircraft can be equally stealthy in all directions. When the AC is being painted from an off angle — from the side or from above — the key question is whether whatever stealth it has left can save the plane from being brightly illuminated by the higher power of a tight beam from a phased-array radar. I doubt the stealthy vehicle would survive.

    This is again a miss-statement. HARM missiles have sensitive receivers and any sidelobes are sufficient to aim them toward the radar.

    Aim them in which direction? An AESA’s sidelobes are small not only in energy but also in frequency and time. Good luck finding such a radar when it is rapidly hopping frequencies and taking only fractions of a second to do a scan. I think the misstatement is yours.

    • Replies: @FB
  183. Vidi says:
    @imaginative

    prevent targets from successfully hiding/shielding behind friendlies.

    The article mentions that the earliest version came out in the 1970′s ? Surely whatever secrets involved are known by now (more than 40 years) and i suppose a number of folks hanging around here must have had experience with operating it?

    An easy way to prevent the Israelis from pulling the same trick again would be to have several radars scanning the same region, from many angles. The new S-300 systems should help there. The Syrian airspace would be saturated, and there would be nowhere for the Israelis to hide.

    • Replies: @imaginitive
  184. hunor says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    You know I always suspected that the Kursk tragedy was not an
    out of the blue accident , but a result of a clever trap or a set up by
    the backstabbing “bravest” of all who openly bragging about not looking
    for a fair fight. And it is possible that on the 17 th. of September a similar
    trap or set up by the ” bravest ” ones took place. Do we have any clue to suspect
    that there is much more there, then what has been publicly stated ?
    Yes there is two clue . The first clue is the Russians didn’t returned fire . They
    didn’t fired on the conspiring Izraeli planes , they didn’t fire on the French ship
    that was firing , they didn’t fired on the lurking British jet near by either. This loss
    was the biggest combat loss to the Russians in the three years of operation in Syria.
    Must have been incredibly painful loss , yet the Russian commander of the Syrian
    operation didn’t returned fire. At this point when all is this is happening the leadership
    in Moscow have no idea that thirteen Russian military personal was just murdered.
    Only the Russian commander in Syria who have full authority to return fire and defend
    his soldiers. What information or reason did he have that made him wait?
    Second clue. Immediately after the loss of the airplane the Russian commander who
    was not waiting for instruction from Moscow he ordered a recovery mission for the
    lost plane , and ordered a repositioning of the Russian warships in the eastern
    Mediterranean sea , and declared an unscheduled exercise, forming a large circle
    round in defensive position. Why ? We know the very large number of enemy
    submarines in the area Izraeli , French , British, German , American. Could it be
    that they were waiting for the Russians to respond and then this well positioned
    submarines would have been in a advantageous position to cause prohibiting losses
    to the Russian warships. And of course all of this would have been described as
    defense against Russian aggression . So the Russian commander figured it is not wise
    to fall for this trap better to wait since it is a very complicated battlefield , with to many
    lurking sharks. It is very puzzling because I know the Russians are not cowards .
    Must have been a tough decision for the Russian commander whatever the reason
    is for not to returning fire.

  185. Vojkan says:

    Formerly Russian, would give anything, including his soul, just to be Russian again. To have a Russian mind again, to be in the Russian mind again. Except that it isn’t how it works. The Russian military are led by rational people. Who leave nothing to wishful thinking. Because they have a fatherland to protect. Independently of political ideologues. That’s Putin’s greatest achievement.

  186. FB says:
    @Vidi

    You are correct…kiza is full of crap…here is what Col Riccioni says about the F22…

    ‘Some claim that the Raptor has the signature of a bird. True, but only in the forward quarter, co-altitude, and only to enemy fighter radars. It is quite visible to ground based radars.’

    Note that the MIC propaganda about radar cross section does not mention things like having to be at the SAME altitude…

    Also your comment about sidelobes is correct and anti-radiation missiles [HARMs] do indeed home in on the side lobes…which are greatly reduced in phased array radars…kiza is doing a lot of mouth flapping here…

    Another incorrect point he made was when talking about jammers…they are radio emitters and obey the inverse square law, like all wave energy…it is only radars which rely on radio waves bounced back that the energy then decreases as function of the distance to the fourth power…this does not apply to jammers…

    He has riddled this discussion with all kinds of inaccuracies and nonsense…

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  187. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    Kiza is indeed full of crap. Though not as much as you. For he’s a true believer in a false, and failed ideology. He stinks only up to the clouds. In a sense, I feel sorry for him. He just has a habit of gambling on the wrong horse.
    Speaking of talking behind one’s back, you, intellectually and morally, notwithstanding your flawed take on math, the laws of physics, and how things in general actually work, stink to high heavens.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  188. Kiza says:
    @FB

    I like it when a Hasbara troll goes:

    You (FB) and Kiza are both complete idiots

    It is a good reminder that we are on the same side of the big issue and it is only the egos which are making us quarrel like snotty little girls about almost irrelevant details.

    The only substantial (policy) issue is the stated difference between annamaria and I: should the Russians defend themselves or wait for some better time? My position is very similar to PCR’s position, except that he formulated his in his typical gentlemanly fashion, whilst I was rather blunt. annamaria’s position is also the Saker’s and Martyanov’s position (FB is too busy with his “physics” to deal with the most important strategic issue). But, notably, neither PCR nor I are Russian. To put it again in my blunt words, if you guys of Russian extraction like to serve as clay pigeons, be everybody’s guests. Your Pavlov-reflex-like counter-argument, a mostly emotional retort, whenever someone says that you should defend yourself, is: you want war in which the Russians will die again (it boils down to this)! PCR and the little me are telling you the opposite, that you encourage more attacks packaged as plausibly deniable schemes. Who is right? I tried to explain that I am not set on my view. What Putin is doing is what I personally could have never done – sacrifice a few to save the many. It is philosophically repugnant to me to make such a trade-off which assumes that I know the outcome (What if I sacrifice a few people for nothing? Do I have the moral right to do political gambles with other people’s lives?). Will Putin’s (and your) approach work? I do not know, but I do not believe so. Nevertheless, in my response to annamaria I did say that it may work because US may collapse financially, or into civil war, or both, or something else may happen. Then Putin’s gambit of sacrificing some Russians just for showing the Russian ability to remain near the enemy called “partners”, without shooting back when attacked may work out to have been the right one. And there is another point regarding the tactics of non-resistance: you should stay on it until your tolerance cost is exceeded, although this is exactly what the sponsors of terrorism are testing – they will keep making bigger and bigger “accidents” until either Putin will not survive as a leader or he will act in revenge (as expected).

    I hope you do understand that Western population is not naive and many understand very well what is going on. These plausibly deniable schemes for killing the Russians are transparent to them. To make the population feel better regarding the highly risky endeavour of killing the members of a nuclear-capable nation, the West has been running a successful demonisation campaign (Skripals, hacking democracy etc), justifying to its morally challenged population such killings of the Russians.

    Soon maybe of the Chinese as well. Actually, it will be quite interesting to see if the Chinese will adopt the Putin’s Sun Tzu strategies, or if they will defend themselves when attacked through similar sneaky schemes.

    My final comments is that in uncertain and crisis times, people do tend to huddle around the leader, out of belief (hope really) that he may know better than they do. Perhaps if incidents such as these below are prevented from continuing, it will be easier for the leader to sustain such strategy:
    1) field hospital with medical staff and patients inside destroyed,
    2) general and his staff killed,
    3) SU-24 shot-down in an ambush by CIA,
    4) suspicious downing of a Russian plane transporting the Alexandrov Choir to Syria,
    5) Israel clearly drawing defensive fire onto a Russian plane full of highly qualified officers.
    But in my view, it is only self defense which can save people from such “accidents”.

    This major policy issue deserves a much better discussion that what I have typed above, but I am pressed for time, sorry.

  189. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    China, of course, “copied” it and then proclaimed its version superior to Russian original, but we all know that Chinese mil-tech is superior to everyone’s.

    Heh, that’s normal commercial hype; it’s not to be taken seriously. Remember that every car is the best car that has ever been built.

  190. Kiza says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Nobody likes to be told that they do not understand something, it is often taken as a personal insult. But truly smart people know their limitations and they hire people with opposite views, just to break the 1) group, 2) inside-box and 3) yes-boss thinking. I have experienced this from a few really smart leaders in the West, presently extinct.

    One cannot get any new solution from a bunch of inside-bureaucracy settled guys. Would it not be better if, instead of your bluster,

    Kremlin … General Staff and SVR

    would actually hire a team of a few Western-raised individuals to evaluate the next plausibly deniable “accident” that the Western terrorist alliance may come up with and counter it without any loss of Russian life? This is just one example, there could be other possible solution.

    But no, it does not appear that the Russians are capable of accepting even just that a better approach is possible, let alone what it should be. No, it is better claiming knowledge whilst leaving your neck on the stump for the next “accident” to happen.

    My bet is on Putin’s Saudi “partners” next.

  191. Vojkan says:
    @Johnny Rico

    NATO failed to defeat the Yugoslav army so NATO targeted Serbian civilians. You have suffered far more losses than you acknowledge so you started killing women and children. You rained the main marked and the main hospital of my hometown with cluster bombs. That’s why Serbia accepted UN resolution 1244 and the Kumanovo agreement. Given the ultimatum in Rambouillet, that’s not what I would call a capitulation. The only reason Serbia signed was because you threatened to mass murder Serbian civilians. Why would you threaten to massacre civilians if you had so soundly defeated the Yugoslav army? Never have so many American military died during training exercises than during the aggression against Serbia. We consider you to be shit at war. Extremely armed fags who pee in their pants when they face opposition. But believe what you want.

  192. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    But truly smart people know their limitations and they hire people with opposite views, just to break the 1) group, 2) inside-box and 3) yes-boss thinking. I have experienced this from a few really smart leaders in the West, presently extinct.

    One cannot get any new solution from a bunch of inside-bureaucracy settled guys. Would it not be better if, instead of your bluster,

    “Kremlin … General Staff and SVR”

    would actually hire a team of a few Western-raised individuals to evaluate the next plausibly deniable “accident” that the Western terrorist alliance may come up with and counter it without any loss of Russian life? This is just one example, there could be other possible solution.

    An interesting train of thought.

    But no, it does not appear that the Russians are capable of accepting even just that a better approach is possible, let alone what it should be. No, it is better claiming knowledge whilst leaving your neck on the stump for the next “accident” to happen.

    Correction, perhaps: the regime in Kremlin and their willing/unwilling advocates.

    Any theory as to why is that?
    Easy answer:
    Maybe…just maybe…..because it’s not actually their neck on the stump? “Skin in the game” thing.

    True answer could be….?
    Hint: people who “advocate” here aren’t, actually, living in Russia as we speak. You know, daily grind and such.

    A couple of ethnic Russians who do live there and post, every now and then, here, appear to have slightly more…say….critical approach to all that.
    Just saying.

    You appear to be between worlds.
    “Westerners” don’t like you, “Russians” probably even more so (you know, traitor and such).
    Good for you, I guess.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  193. @Vojkan

    Speaking of talking behind one’s back, you, intellectually and morally, notwithstanding your flawed take on math, the laws of physics, and how things in general actually work, stink to high heavens.

    You should back up those claims by taking apart in detail some of the lengthy, information-packed comments that FB has made so that readers can determine for themselves from where exactly the stink emanates. Thanks.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Vojkan
    , @Vojkan
  194. Vojkan says:
    @Kiza

    The Russians failed to defend Serbia in 1999. That’s the Serbian approach.
    Why on Earth would Russians defend Serbs who only remember “Russian” brothers when they’re in dire straits?
    Why would the Russian “love” us more than we “love” them? What is their interest? Because Serbs love “Tolstoevsky”?
    Don’t blame the Russian for Serbian failures. In true love as in a true contract, you have to give in order to take. Russia has given us a lot with no expectance of return. If she expected anything, we have given her nothing. We aren’t Russia’s spoiled child.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @EugeneGur
  195. peterAUS says:
    @Vojkan

    NATO failed to defeat the Yugoslav army so NATO targeted Serbian civilians.

    Actually, they started to target civilian infrastructure. The objective was to intimidate the regime in Belgrade into surrender by pushing the country towards stone age.

    I guess you could be onto something here:

    You have suffered far more losses than you acknowledge….

    and

    Never have so many American military died during training exercises than during the aggression against Serbia.

    As for

    …That’s why Serbia accepted UN resolution 1244 and the Kumanovo agreement.

    there was a little matter of Russia guaranteeing something too, I guess. While the drunkard was in the Kremlin.

    Perceptions aside (Argentinians still believe they sank Royal Navy aircraft carrier in ’82, for example) NATO delivered what its political masters wanted at the time.
    Serbs lost….BADLY.

    That’s all what matters, really.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Vojkan
    , @Kiza
  196. peterAUS says:
    @peterAUS

    And….just to remind you, “Team Russia” team here, re “killing civilians …” thing: when you have time/inclination, do a quick Google “Sherman Georgia howl”.
    For example:

    https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/11/17/rethinking-shermans-march/

    Anyway.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  197. FB says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Well Nosey…that’s the whole thing isn’t it…?

    Any tree monkey can yelp things like ‘your flawed math and physics’…without actually backing that up with anything…

    I have issued that useless tree monkey ‘vojkan’ numerous challenges to actually back up those monkey yelps with an actual example of any error I may have made…but of course he is a completely illiterate so the substance never appears…

    Lots of noise but no beef…

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  198. Vojkan says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    One, I stop reading at once people who so obviously lack knowledge of physics and instruments that measure physics. Two, I don’t waste time reading the rest once I’ve read the error in the equation. Three, you obviously lack the knowledge of physics to understand any polemics I might engage in with my compatriot of whom I wish he weren’t my compatriot. Four, people who have a clue know, people who haven’t a clue won’t understand. Five, I’m not gifted enough to make people who haven’t a clue understand. Corollary: FB’s idiocy makes me frustrated. Conclusion: I get over my frustrations and you can believe what you wish even if it’s rubbish.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  199. Vojkan says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I forgot the most important reason, they’re Serbs whose purpose in life is to prove before foreigners that they’re smarter than other Serbs. That’s not my purpose in life.

  200. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    Inertial navigation. Gyroscope. You’re a stupid nerd. I have nothing to prove to you.

    • Replies: @FB
  201. @Vojkan

    Yes. It’s pretty much standard American practice to bomb civilian infrastructure immediately, regardless of the degree of resistance put up by the opposing military.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Vojkan
  202. @Vidi

    thanks V !
    ok – if the older 1970′s S300 can compare notes with each other in a usable, timely way does sound like some progress can be made – appreciate the nudge.

  203. Cyrano says:
    @Vojkan

    I don’t mean to interfere in inter-Serbian squabble, but I’ll volunteer an opinion anyway. I think you are exaggerating what Russia has done for Serbia for example. How so? As a proud Balkaneer ( I am exaggerating here a little bit myself – the proud part) I have to say that we in the Balkans have always benefited from the simple fact that usually Russia’s enemies are our enemies too, so when Russia takes care of their enemies, they automatically take care of our enemies too.

    But I don’t think that the Russians would necessarily put their neck on the line for the Balkan Slavs to defend them against enemies that are not their enemies as well. So, unfortunately for Serbia, that equation didn’t work for them in the 90’s – simply put – Serbia’s enemies were not automatically Russia’s enemies too. Russia was still trying to be friends with the west. I forgot who it was, but some prominent Russian politician at the time said: “We are not going to start nuclear war with US over Serbia”.

    But it seems that Serbia is always the canary in the mine – whenever someone attacks Serbia – Russia is next. That’s why that buffoon Yeltsin had to go. Friendship with the west was over the moment they attacked Yugoslavia (Serbia). Now the Russia didn’t start a nuclear war over Serbia, but they still might have to – to defend themselves, and as always Serbia will benefit from this – if anything is left over from this world after things go nuclear.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  204. Vojkan says:
    @peterAUS

    Serbs did lose badly. Albeit not on the battlefield. Though there never was a real battlefield.
    I have no reason to doubt the accounts of my friends in the military who sought in the rare conversations I’ve had with them on the subject, to humble down their achievements.
    I believe Russians capitalised on the Serb’s defeat. I can’t blame them for that. No one is responsible for what happened to Serbs, as it happened, but Serbs. They’re so keen on making the wrong decisions for the sake of appearing glorious, you can’t blame the devil for that. It’s their informed choice.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @EugeneGur
  205. @Felix Keverich

    Is this the IAF F16 shot down by legacy Syrian SAM ?

    i guess IAF superiority is just a myth

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  206. Vojkan says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    To be fair, they only did it after they realised that the Serb military were too smart to be depleted by aerial bombardment and that in order to defeat them, you’d have to fight them on the ground. That’s why NATO bombarded civilians. On a man to man basis, Serbs and Russians are the best soldiers in the world. No navy seal, no marine, no SAS can match them. Fighting for their homes gives them the little bit of adrenaline needed to prevail.

  207. FB says:
    @Vojkan

    ‘Inertial navigation. Gyroscope. You’re a stupid nerd. I have nothing to prove to you.’

    And this from the wikipedia entry on inertial navigation systems…[very first paragraph]

    ‘An inertial navigation system (INS) is a navigation aid that uses a computer, motion sensors (accelerometers), rotation sensors (gyroscopes), and occasionally magnetic sensors (magnetometers) to continuously calculate by dead reckoning the position, the orientation, and the velocity (direction and speed of movement) of a moving object without the need for external references.’

    Who the fuck do you think you’re kidding blockhead…?

    A tree monkey is actually a fucking genius compared to you…

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  208. Vojkan says:
    @Cyrano

    My point was never “Russians” are our brothers. My point is, whatever cultural, religious or blood affinity I have with the Russians, they have their interests and we have ours. I cannot expect of Russians to defend Serbia for “ses beaux yeaux”. The same goes the other way around. To some people Russia has “betrayed” Serbia, to some other Serbia has “betrayed” Russia. Yet the West sees us as one whole, Russia and little “Russia”. I didn’t ask myself before but now I love Russia infinetely more than the West. Russia has asked me nothing, has given me nothing and is expecting nothing from me.
    If we can have a mutually beneficial relationship with Russia, great. We will never have that with the USA or the UK or Germany or France. They’re guilty of the spoilation of Serbs’ lives and private properties. Russians never spoiled Serbs of anything.

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @yurivku
  209. annamaria says:
    @TG

    Only the Jews have made a lucrative business on their “incomparable victimhood” and “superior morality.” See the holo-museums littering all continents.
    The Oded Yinon plan and PNAC have as their consequence the huge scores of murdered Iraqi, Libyan and Syrian children, the victims of the Wars for Israel.
    Has Israel accepted the refugees from the destroyed Iraq, Libya and Syria? — No.
    Has Israel provided any humanitarian assistance to the traumatized population of the destroyed Iraq, Libya and Syria? — No.
    The supremacist Israelis want more slaughter in Syria and Iran in the name of Eretz Israel.

    Dancing Israelis, indeed: https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/10/major-u-s-helicopters-caught-airlifting-isis-from-trouble-at-deir-ezzor/
    “American helicopters have airlifted wounded members of the ISIS terrorist group from Syria’s oil-rich eastern Deir Ezzor Province, most not of Syrian origin. … It was apparently not the first airlifting of terrorists by the US in Syria as there has already been numerous reports of such transfers.”
    — Happy 9/11, Israel.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  210. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    I know what inertial navigation is. I know how sensors correct an inertial trajectory navigation. I also know a bit about satellite guided navigation. I also know that however sophisticated inertial navigation is, it can never achieve the precision of satellite guidance. I don’t know the equations of Newton laws by heart but I can deduce them from their enunciation, I also know what sort of thing is a gyroscope. It’s not even science, it’s History of Art. You’re a Wikipedia nerd with no culture. I’m a real life guy with some culture.

    • Replies: @FB
  211. Vojkan says:
    @annamaria

    There are Jews who are really bad people. The supremacist kind, like my professors at University. There are Jews who are wonderful people. Like my doctor who almost got killed for knowing Sarkozy’s dark secrets, even though he never shared them with anyone. I don’t judge a book by the cover, I open it at a random page and read. The crimes of the Rotschild, Soros and Netanyahu are the crimes of the Rotschild, Soros and Netanyahu, they aren’t the crimes of Jews.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  212. @Vojkan

    Well you certainly have made several things much clearer with that reply comment, though the bit about you not wasting time whilst doing exactly that is a bit confusing to me just as it must be to you too.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @Vojkan
  213. peterAUS says:
    @Vojkan

    Well….can’t say I disagree, overall.

    Let’s say that I also have some “inside” info about that particular conflict and, yes, the performance of the 3rd Army (with attached outfits….) was surprisingly good,all things considered.

    Two moments that I’ve found rather, say, outstanding, were shooting down the “stealth” (technical expertise there) and the suicidal bravery, actually willing sacrifice, of the Mig-29 squadron. Especially the later.

    Having said that….hehe…

    …On a man to man basis, Serbs and Russians are the best soldiers in the world. No navy seal, no marine, no SAS can match them….

    Best a? Oh man.
    Moving on, really.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  214. FB says:
    @Vojkan

    I also know what sort of thing is a gyroscope. It’s not even science, it’s History of Art.

    Well…Mr ‘Culture’…[bacterial, I'm guessing]…why don’t you stop digging yourself deeper…you claim to know a LOT of things, especially about science…you used the words ‘I know’ six fucking times in that little monkey yelp you managed to type out…

    Here is a little thing called a ring laser gyroscope…

    They’re used in inertial nav systems…but I’m sure you ‘knew’ that…here are some applications…

    International Space Station

    Trident I and Trident II Missiles

    Sukhoi Su-30MKI

    Boeing 777

    And many more…

    Here’s an idea…why don’t you call Nasa and tell them they’re ‘not using science’…?

    Now granted there are all kinds of retards flatulating endlessly here on this forum…but my oh my…you’re so fucking retarded it makes one’s jaw drop…

    • Replies: @Vojkan
    , @Vojkan
    , @Vojkan
  215. Vojkan says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Given your comments on other articles, which I find to be worthy contributions, I don’t regret the time to answer you.

  216. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Thank you for your concern, my Croatian Australian debating opponent, before I barred you.

    Firstly, if you are honest to yourself, you will admit that everyone who changes the “cultural” milieu remains somewhere between the two milieus, including you.

    Yet, the reason not to be concerned about me is because I have sufficient life’s experience not to fall for the judgement by online or any other (lynching) mob. There are a few people here worth debating with, even though we often disagree (Martyanov, annamaria, even Saker who does not comment, a few Westerners such as Realist and Rurik and so on). There was a time at the beginning when unz was almost troll-free and I honestly used to wonder when they will arrive. We had much better debates then. Also, there are other moderated places where the trolls and BSers get barred. I was never attacked there.

    I did not include you in this group because you were saying some really wrong even silly things. I still remain to be convinced that you are worth debating with, considering, for example, your last words in your comment above. Are you expressing a real concern for another person’s mental well being under attack by some pretty aggressive online BSers? Or are you trying to re-enforce the point that I am alone to make me feel even worse? Or maybe you are doing both, your Croatian side is truly concerned, whilst your Western side is scoring a point (LOL). Finally, maybe you did a bit of self-projection and typed a comment about me relevant to how you feel.

    Because you are not abusive and thus obviously not a troll, you have steered my curiosity to see which one rules you and I have unblocked your comments from my screen.

    Finally, I am glad that at least you appeared to like my modest suggestion that one needs to re-evaluate a strategy if the things are not working as originally intended (your people are getting killed). I do agree with you that those whose neck is not on the chopping block (stump) or the necks of their friends and relatives are likely to feel academic about the risks in Syria and play armchair generals and marshals. It is more like a sports game for them: my team lost one, no big deal. This is a very common human trait when no skin is in the game. I wish there was less of this in the Slavic world.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  217. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    The problem with you is that you stink MI6 to high heavens. I don’t know if they pay you or if you want to be English. That’s my perception of you. I hate traitors.

  218. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Well peterAUS, I know that you are not commenting on my comments, but I did not make such stupid statements anyway. But you and I do disagree that the Serbs lost the war (badly) and I backed this up with established facts: does a defeated side do unconditional surrender or it manages to remove the bad Rambouillet agreement clauses the refusal of which was the official reason for the beginning of the Western bombardment?

    The Serbs fought the 1999 war to a draw but disastrously lost “the peace”. I never expected at all that the West would honor the Kumanovo agreement and UNSC 1244, it was all so predictable. But it is disappointing that the Russians appear to have learned few of the lessons of the 1990s from Yugoslavia. Even my 90-years old mother observed that Russia is repeating the Serbian experience instead of having learned from it.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  219. Vojkan says:
    @peterAUS

    That was a baseless affirmation from my part. Though I’m quite confident that on a man to man basis, I can do more than just defend my chances.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  220. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    Except they’re not used for locating, they’re used for positioning, but you don’t understand, or you are paid to not understand, the difference between location and position.

  221. Vojkan says:
    @FB

    Btw, this is a definite proof that you don’t know the principle of a gyroscope, measuring roll, pitch, yaw, not latitude and longitude. Now tell me why would armies rely on imprecise inertial navigation for their cruise missiles when they can feed rhem with precise latitudes and longitudes. Tell me please, how do you reprogram on short notice a Tomahawk’s target with only inertial navigation.

    • Replies: @FB
  222. yurivku says:
    @Vojkan

    Russia has asked me nothing, has given me nothing and is expecting nothing from me.

    It was interesting reading. Of cource I have slightly different opinion of it, but won’t comment. It’s really interesting to know how people who have been bombed by the west currently relate to it and what they do remember from the old times, Turkey, WW2 etc…

    • Replies: @FB
  223. @SurfaceBook

    It is superior, but not invincible. Once the Israeli public recognises that, it will be much harder for Netanyahoo to justify his aggressive policies in Syria. But for that to happen Israelis need to start losing planes on a regular basis.

  224. jpk says:

    http://tass.com/defense/1025020 of 9th of October – seems that mathematics is little different

  225. Well?
    Even if Russians only stop the progress of Military wing of Globalization in Syria, it will be tremendous success of Russia, and devastating defeat of Globalization.
    And also benefit for Russia is practical experience in modern warfare, that is also priceless.

  226. @FB

    What you mention is actually using this type of equipment to guide a missile shot…and yes, the latest Russian equipment does have this capability…

    3M14, P-800 Et al are “shoot-and-forget” weapons with inertial guidance and active seekers, which have the ability to receive radio-command correction-guidance (if need be) and systems such as Mineral or, upcoming, Pozitiv MK are designed to provide targeting for these types of weapons. Pretty much same goes for AD missiles with active heads. 40N6 or 9M96 used in S-400 or in Poliment-Redut “package” have an active mode and need only rough azimuth, range and elevation for what is called “opening of the visor” on arrival to the search position. These are genuine shoot-and-forget weapons and they can receive targeting from passive systems.

    • Replies: @FB
  227. @Kiza

    would actually hire a team of a few Western-raised individuals to evaluate the next plausibly deniable “accident” that the Western terrorist alliance may come up with and counter it without any loss of Russian life?

    1. Russian military is fully aware of the fact that there is a war in Syria and it fully expects losses in such a war. There is no illusions whatsoever among Russian military professionals on the nature of the conflict. It is expected and military people are trained and prepared this way–with the expectation of the circumstances in which one dies. Nobody wants to die but military people die–comes with the territory.

    2. Bacchanalia which started on many Syria-related discussion threads and only now begins to die out somewhat in the face of overwhelming empirical evidence (read my blog, if you want proof–it was clear within 3-4 hours that Russia will deliver) was less driven by any concern for the lives of Russian servicemen but primarily with barely hidden desire by many here, who live in their own world controlled by Jew and Israel for whatever reason, to settle accounts with Israel. Russia is merely a vehicle in this world-view.

    So, now people who were so “concerned” about Russian lives have to survive their massive cognitive dissonance between their, grossly perverted world-view, and Russian reality which is simply not what they think and one which is neither controlled by Israel (as is, admittedly, the case in the US–I never denied that) nor really cares for some knee-jerk reactions. And here is the point, which I make for years:

    Russians are on the order of magnitude more aware of the West in general, and US in particular, than the other way around. Russia is long ago “inside” US OODA loop and the only things US and its lapdogs can do, short of unleashing a full-scale war, are some kinds of provocations, akin to Il-20 event, but this is expected and yes, these are losses Russia is willing to take and, highly likely, more Russian servicemen will die in Syria but that is the price for cleaning the mess Israel, Gulfies and US created in the region. Actual victories are won on the ground, sea and air, not in PR media environment, no matter how one tries to convince everybody to the contrary. Russia is winning where it truly matters. And yes, it is impossible to have a contingency plan for every possible situation–this is not how it works.

    Nobody likes to be told that they do not understand something, it is often taken as a personal insult.

    Calling on sticking to the facts instead of “feelings” hardly qualifies as personal insults. But never mind, I am waiting for another avalanche of scrutiny (and wrong conclusions) on further steps by Russia, including in her dealings with Israel, and screams of desperation about Putin bowing or being owned by the Jews.

  228. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Good link Peter. I was aware of the Sherman’s reputation, but the essay you linked to puts the US way of war into a new perspective – it gives it tradition. Did you read the first comment about 60 brave Georgian boys who fought for two hours to give time to Georgian Cavalry to escape and got executed by Sherman and buried in a mass-grave? The oldest one was 16 years old.

    This perfectly explains later the two atomic bombs, the fire bombings of Japan and Germany, the smell of napalm on the civilians in the morning in Vietnam and so on and so on. A couple of hundred women and children killed in Serbia at the end of the 78 day bombardment are a small change.

    I would most strongly recommend to all Russians to read this essay.

    • Replies: @Milton
    , @peterAUS
  229. jgarbo says:
    @Johnny Rico

    Rico, try again. “Firepower” is meaningless. There are no S700s, even if your Marvel comics says so. Stick to reports without cartoons or drawings, then you’ll look less childish.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Johnny Rico
  230. Milton says:

    I was always a big fan of Putin, but now it appears he has put Israel First and Russia Second. Or maybe the rumors are true and his mother was Jewish and his loyalties have always been with Israel from day one. Maybe he really is “Putler” in the sense that he will bring Russia to ruin in the same manner that the closet-Jew/Freemason Hitler brought Germany to ruin. I guess the big question now becomes: will the military establishment in Russia succeed in taking control of their country where Germany and America failed to reassert control in the face of a puppet-leader?

  231. Bill says:
    @SimplePseudonymicHandle

    Perhaps Russia should provide substantially more SAM systems than it has openly stated

    I’m curious about how feasible this is. The S-300s that went to Syria recently were driven on to big airplanes, flown to Syria, and then driven off big airplanes. Presumably that can’t be done without satellites and humint observing it.

    But are there less observable ways to do it?

  232. annamaria says:
    @Vojkan

    I hear you, Vojkan. But where is the unified voice of the righteous Jews exposing and condemning the crimes of the “really bad?”
    There are too few of those who condemn the bloody Jewish project in the Middle East and the ziocon project in Ukraine. At least, the Methodist Church has disavowed Bush the lesser.
    Where are the Jewish cultural and religious centers to criticize the policies of the Jewish State and the leading ziocons? — Nothing but the consenting silence.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
  233. Milton says:
    @Kiza

    Lincoln was really America’s first crazed-Neocon, warmonger President. America has never really recovered from the Civil War. I like how Thomas DiLorenzo put it in Lincoln Unmasked:

    “Imagine that California seceded from the union and an American president responded with the carpet bombing of Los Angeles, San Diego, and San Francisco that destroyed 90 percent of those cities. Such was the case with General Sherman’s bombardment of Atlanta; a naval blockade; a blocking off of virtually all trade; the eviction of thousands of residents from their homes (as occurred in Atlanta in 1864); the destruction of most industries and farms; massive looting of private property by a marauding army; and the killing of one out of four males of military age while maiming for life more than double that number.

    Would such an American president be considered a “great statesman” or a war criminal? The answer is obvious. A statesman would have recognized the state’s right to secede, as enshrined in the Tenth Amendment, among other places, and then worked diligently to persuade the seceded state that a reunion was in its best interest. A great statesman, or even a modest one, would not have impulsively plunged the entire nation into a bloody war.

    Lincoln’s warmongering belligerence and his invasion of all the Southern states in response to Fort Sumter (where no one was harmed or killed) caused the upper South—Virginia, North Carolina, Tennessee, and Arkansas—to secede after originally voting to remain in the Union. He refused to meet with Confederate commissioners to discuss peace and even declined a meeting with Napoleon III of France, who offered to broker a peace agreement. No genuine statesman would have behaved in such a way.

    After Fort Sumter, Lincoln thanked naval commander Gustavus Fox for assisting him in manipulating the South Carolinians into firing at Fort Sumter. A great statesman does not manipulate his own people into starting one of the bloodiest wars in human history….”

    • Agree: Kiza
  234. EugeneGur says:
    @Vojkan

    Russia has given us a lot with no expectance of return. If she expected anything, we have given her nothing.

    How remarkably true, and how rare to hear this truth from our “brothers”. I am not excusing the 1999 evens but you know well that at the time Russia was in no position to defend anybody; it was barely able to defend itself. If it’s any consolation, that NATO bombing was one of the events that precipitated the Russia’s revival – it brought a widespread feeling of shame, and shame is a great motivator.

    Why would the Russian “love” us more than we “love” them?

    I’d rephrase that: Why would the Russians love you more than you love yourselves? As someone aptly put it, the Russians cannot be more Serbs than the Serbs.

    If you are prepared to give up your independence and accept the separation of Kosovo for the EU perks (whatever they might be), then what can WE do? If you aren’t prepared to stand your ground, Russia will stand by you as it has, well, from the moment it was able to.

  235. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The problem with active radar seekers on missiles is that they can be jammed…that’s why they are used sparingly and carefully…

    In these types of seekers, it is usually inertial guidance that provides the flight path in the early and mid stage of the flight…since they are self-contained and cannot be interfered with…with the active seeker taking over in the end game of the engagement…

    In the jamming scenario we recall that the flight vehicle is always at a disadvantage to the much larger surface vehicle, due to its physical size and weight constraints…ie a 3,000 lb cruise missile with a diameter of 20 inches can only carry so much antenna and electrical power…both of which will by necessity be puny…

    If it’s attacking a ship, it’s going up against many megawatts of power and huge phased array antennas and electronic countermeasures…

    Still, overall I agree with you on the usefulness of passive sensors…they are a part of the toolbox…

    Incidentally…what information do you have on the specific model of S300 that are now in Syria…not that it actually matters much, since older systems are upgraded to new specs on a regular basis…also the main thing is the radars…those launchers could be carrying older rockets but I suspect the radars would be either very recent gear, or upgraded legacy stuff…

    In any case I suspect that the ‘care package’ included a number of extra radars to be used to hybridize the S200 batteries…as I explained previously here, this makes for a formidable package…to my mind more desirable than a even the latest straight S300…whose missiles cannot match the S200 in either range or speed…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  236. EugeneGur says:
    @Vojkan

    I believe Russians capitalised on the Serb’s defeat.

    Could you enlighten me as to how we’ve achieved that? I’d really appreciate that. It’d give me a new prospective. Our “brothers” alway manage to come with unorthodox views of the events.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  237. @Andrei Martyanov

    The most effective way to defang Israel is to cut off all US Military and Economic Aid to Israel. However, the fake Christians known as US Evangelical Christians won’t allow this to happen…and the other fake Christians….US Catholics….won’t allow this to happen either. And both of these very weird species of fake Christians are very enthusiastic about using their sons and daughters as canon fodder for GREATER ISRAEL!!!……..And when their sons and daughters are paraded around on WOUNDED WARRIOR PROJECT INFOMERCIALS begging for money for titanium-insect-looking artificial limbs……well, it’s all quite WONDERFULL!!! for the cause of Greater Israel!!!….

    America is a manifestly in a very deep state of spiritual and moral rot…..

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  238. @imaginative

    All I care about is that the S-300 missiles shoot down every Israelie F-16..F-35 that enters Syrian airspace….

    • Replies: @Cloak And Dagger
  239. FB says:
    @yurivku

    Yuri…you won’t comment, but I will…

    I know Serbia very well…this ‘vojkan’ clown claims to be a Serb, but to paraphrase Lloyd Bentsen’s famous retort to Dan Quayle, who had presumptuously compared himself to JFK during the 1988 presidential debate…

    ‘I know Serbs…and let me tell you something, you’re no Serb…’

    I have had the opportunity to work professionally with Serbian colleagues in the aerospace industry…and was even given the honor to physically examine pieces of that infamous F117 wreckage…last time I was in Belgrade about three years ago, the bombed out buildings right across from the parliament still stood in ruins, more than 15 years after the terror bombing of the Belgrade population…

    I also happen to travel to Russia frequently…and have worked extensively with Russian colleagues, including at Nasa…I can tell you that for every Russian I know, the 1999 bombing of Serbia by Nato is VERY PERSONAL…it is a huge part of the Russian psyche…even while most Serbs choose to conveniently forget…

    Serbs I know ask me…’how can the Russians give us a helping hand when we push it away’…?

    And…’the Russians can’t be bigger Serbs than the Serbs’…

    With exceptions among the military and technical/scientific community, the Serbian people, by and large, are disappointing…what with their ardor for wanting to be part of so-called ‘Europe’…a sinking ship that smart people [UK for instance...many in France etc] want to get off of before it goes under…

    The Serbian regime is a German puppet…the Serb military fought Nato to a standstill in 1999 and Nato was forced to accept UNSC Resolution 1244…which affirms the territorial integrity of Serbia, the presence of its police, military and border guards in Kosovo etc…that is why Kosovo is not legally a country, has no UN seat, and never will…unless Serbia itself gives it away…and if you talk to Serb patriots they will tell you that a lot of Serbians just don’t give a damn…they would give away Kosovo just to join some fascist EU…which is basically a new iteration of the German Empire…

    That’s how it goes…human nature…it’s the same in the US…the sheeple are blind to the fact that they are being skinned alive and actually will fight to their dying breath for scumbags like H Clinton and the people behind that agenda like George Soros…

    I see this same kind of vast disappointment among clear-headed commentators in the African-American community who cannot get their people to think straight and realize they are putting their own necks in the noose…they vote instinctively for that monster that cackled about the grisly murder of Africa’s greatest leader Moamar Qaddafi…how does that serve African Americans…?

    I know similar types in Russia…the so-called ‘Atlanticists’…similar thing in Scotland, where many Scots patriots are working for the cherished independence that was surrendered by their traitorous forebears…while brainwashed dolts work against the common good of the Scots people and in service of the ‘Butcher’s Apron’ [the Union Jack]…

    So this is really a universal thing among humans everywhere…you will always have people who are just plain stupid and refuse to think on their own two feet…unfortunately these types tend to make the most noise and cause the most trouble, wherever they may be…

  240. @FB

    The problem with active radar seekers on missiles is that they can be jammed…that’s why they are used sparingly and carefully…

    Anything could be jammed and fooled and that is why one uses a quasi-random or fully random sliding frequencies in active radar heads, plus other sensors (optronic et al) for target capturing (lock-on), among many other methods of ECCM. In fact it is not used “sparingly” or “carefully” but active homing heads are a main stay on a wide variety of strike and AD missiles, ranging from X-35 Uran (known to be extremely jamming-resistant) to 3M54, to P-800 Oniks which apart from being well-defended against jamming are capable of doing the jamming of their own. Same goes for AD missiles which I mentioned and that is why these are algorithms (mathematics) which are highly classified or, on many specifically Russian AD systems, literally have some of their algo-parts wired into physically (ferric rings and wires, as an example) in some blocks capable of self destruction if the system ever captured or tempered with by those who are not supposed to know. Shtil (navalized version of Buk) had this realized in it, especially during sale of pr. 956 destroyers to China.

    Incidentally…what information do you have on the specific model of S300 that are now in Syria…not that it actually matters much, since older systems are upgraded to new specs on a regular basis…also the main thing is the radars…those launchers could be carrying older rockets but I suspect the radars would be either very recent gear, or upgraded legacy stuff…

    Last word was S-300PM, which is a domestic version of export S-300PMU1. This is top notch AD system with full net-centricity. It is also not very old, they started to arrive en masse to AD Forces in Russia in mid and late 1990s. Moreover–it is free for Syria. This speaks volumes, obviously. But the phrase which goes around military and former military circles in Russia and is made public is:”Don’t worry (Syrians), we will illuminate and you will shoot them down”. Israelis know what this is all about.

    • Replies: @FB
  241. @War for Blair Mountain

    All I care about is that the S-300 missiles shoot down every Israelie F-16..F-35 that enters Syrian airspace….

    After the first F35 is shot down, there won’t be any more.

  242. @War for Blair Mountain

    The most effective way to defang Israel is to cut off all US Military and Economic Aid to Israel.

    This is for America and Americans to decide, not Russia. I agree with your feeling towards Evangelicals, they constitute a bulk of American Christian Zionists who, in their turn, are one of the main drivers (together with Israel political actions groups), however not the only, behind a complete perversion of American foreign policy and subordination of it to Israel’s geopolitical designs. This is unprecedented. It is also highly embarrassing, how the nation which proclaimed itself “exceptional” succumbed so completely to flattery and corruption of an Asiatic type.

  243. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    Civil and well put together (paragraphs etc.) reply. Refreshing here.

    I’ll try to reciprocate.

    You are here to debate, apparently. I am not.

    Are you expressing a real concern for another person’s mental well being under attack by some pretty aggressive online BSers? Or are you trying to re-enforce the point that I am alone to make me feel even worse? Or maybe you are doing both, your Croatian side is truly concerned, whilst your Western side is scoring a point (LOL). Finally, maybe you did a bit of self-projection and typed a comment about me relevant to how you feel.

    Not a bad effort. Still, don’t see the real reason.
    I get a feeling you’ll figure it out, in time, should you keep on the current course.

    To more important thing than you and me here:

    ..one needs to re-evaluate a strategy if the things are not working as originally intended (your people are getting killed).

    Yup.
    Just, perhaps, people getting killed aren’t, really, “your” people. Makes sense?

    It is more like a sports game for them: my team lost one, no big deal.

    For the masses, including most people here.
    For the powers that be, not really. “Cannon fodder”, “expendable assets” and similar explains it better.

  244. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    …you and I do disagree that the Serbs lost the war (badly)…

    We do.

    But it is disappointing that the Russians appear to have learned few of the lessons of the 1990s from Yugoslavia.

    It does appear that way.
    Or, perhaps, the regime in Kremlin and people around it have learnt the lessons quite well. Remind me, again, what happened to the drunkard after stepping down?

    Even my 90-years old mother observed that Russia is repeating the Serbian experience instead of having learned from it.

    A smart woman.

  245. peterAUS says:
    @Vojkan

    That was a baseless affirmation from my part.

    It was.

    Having said that, I do believe that Serb armed forces were at the pinnacle of their quality and capability in 1999.
    Not so much for the officer corps and professionals/volunteers with plenty of experience from 91. I am talking about fundamentally, conscripts and reservists in regular motorized and mechanized infantry and border troops. Those kids and (recalled) civilians performed exceptionally well.

    The war, IMHO, actually proved that conscript/reserve based armed forces CAN fight in modern wars.

    Which, interestingly perhaps, brings up back to the current state of armed forces of players in Balkans.
    My understanding is that the current Serb armed forces aren’t a shadow of the force facing NATO in 1990. The ….ahm…..reorganization…..simply destroyed them.
    Wasn’t the man who orchestrated downing of the “stealth” let go and had to open a bakery in his hometown to make a living? The senior NCO who devised that technical part got simply retired on a meager pay?
    And countless of similar examples. Or my, say, sources/contacts, are wrong?

    Smart move by TPTBs from Brussels to Washington.

  246. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    A couple of hundred women and children killed in Serbia at the end of the 78 day bombardment are a small change.

    Yup.

    I would most strongly recommend to all Russians to read this essay.

    Actually….whoever interested in understanding modern armed conflicts.
    Including, OT for this particular thread, US patriots contemplating, ahm, “disagreeing” with the Federal Government. Risk/reward, cost/result things and such.

  247. @Andrei Martyanov

    Andrie..

    Your first sentence….that’s the point I was trying to make….I should have made myself clearer….

    Larger point:I am all for Native-Nationalist-Ethnic-PRAGMATIC-Tribalism….If Deep South White Evangelical Christians did this to a scale no greater than……no less than what the Israelie Operating System does….well, they wouldn’t be packing off their Working Class Native Born White Christian Teenage Sons and Daughters for delimbing in Syria and Iraq….Why do they do this?….Perhaps it’s the accumulated neurotoxic effects of Roll Tide !!! Football sewage…….year after year….They really do believe Jesus is a Roll Tide!!! Fan…..I, on the other hand, believe this to be monumental-vaulting blasphemy against authentic Christianity……..

  248. peterAUS says:
    @jgarbo

    “Firepower” is meaningless.

    Pickett’s division at third day at Gettysburg would disagree, perhaps.
    Prussian Guards at Gravelotte.
    Zulus at Ulundi and Mahdis at Omdurman.
    ……..
    Brits, first day of Somme…
    Dresden….Tokyo…..ah, yes, and those two other cities…..

    …..Yamato task force 1945….
    ………..

    Serb infantry in Kosovo under B-52 “carpets”….
    …….

    Anti-Assad forces hit by TOS-1.
    ……..

    Good site.
    Every now and then a comment with level of stupidity that hits me better than glass of Jack Daniels. Please guys, keep them coming.

  249. peterAUS says:
    @EugeneGur

    Could you enlighten me as to how we’ve achieved that? I’d really appreciate that. It’d give me a new prospective.

    Perhaps…..as you’ve just typed in:

    If it’s any consolation, that NATO bombing was one of the events that precipitated the Russia’s revival – it brought a widespread feeling of shame, and shame is a great motivator.

    • Replies: @EugeneGur
  250. @War for Blair Mountain

    Which raises the really interesting question:Who installed the Israelie Operating System into the brains of millions of Deep South Evangelical Christians?…..Who ordered this?….

  251. @War for Blair Mountain

    .I, on the other hand, believe this to be monumental-vaulting blasphemy against authentic Christianity……..

    As is Prosperity Gospel–another purely evangelical thing. I agree–it has very little to do with Christianity. But then again, in the country which gave us Scientology–how dumb one has to be to buy into this.

  252. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘In fact [active radar seeker] is not used “sparingly” or “carefully” but active homing heads are a main stay on a wide variety of strike and AD missiles…

    Like which SAMs for instance…?

    The S300/400 missiles use TVM [track via missile]…in which the engagement radar illuminates the target and the missile seeker is passive, collecting the reflections painted by the ground radar…a radio downlink from the missile to the radar sends that target reflection from the passive seeker back to the ground computer, which calculates the intercept and uplinks that guidance back to the missile…

    This is similar to the SARH [semi active radar homing] used on previous generations like S200…the only difference being that in SARH the missile computes the intercept itself instead of the ground computer…however, the S200 hybridization with S300/400 radars I spoke of also includes seeker upgrade to full digital and may well utilize TVM…

    The most common use of active seeker is in air to air missiles…but even here, the Russian doctrine [unlike USAF] is for iztrebitelyi [fighter aircraft] missiles to have a choice of seekers…including a semi-active version on the same missile airframe [R27 and R77 families]…then there are also infrared [heatseeker] plus anti-radiation seekers that home in on enemy radar, which are completely passive…

    The idea of this seeker diversity is to fire a salvo of air to air shots with a variety of different seekers…this is a very sound philosophy…

    I don’t know about the ground and sea launched P800 ‘Oniks’…but I do know the air launched variant 3M55 carries an innovbative dual-mode ‘Granit-Elektron’ seeker with both active and passive anti-radiation capability…

    Here’s a navalized Flanker with a Kh41 ‘Moskit’ in the centerline position…and an Oniks off to the side…[ram air inlet covered]

    So I think you are stretching things a bit here with your idea that there is some kind of heavy reliance on active radar seekers…that is contrary to the very sound Russian/Soviet doctrine of using a number of different kinds of seekers to find a chink in the defender’s armor…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  253. @Andrei Martyanov

    Andrie

    Scientology…..some people really got themselves a really bad case of 1967 San Francisco-Summer of Love-LSD induced brain damage…….with a topping of venreal disease which travelled up the vagus nerve to the hippies’ brain…..which morphed into early 1970’s extremes of me-generation weirdoism and creepyness……An Ackermann function tower of exponentials can’t even bound the creepyness and weirdoness of Scientology…….I deserve the Noble Prize in Medicine for making this discovery…..

  254. @FB

    Like which SAMs for instance…?

    9M96 (E…) as an example (I already mentioned it)–fully active radar head (plus IR channel), full self-lock on at the zone of effective range and sector of a seeker’s engagement.

    The S300/400 missiles use TVM [track via missile]…in which the engagement radar illuminates the target and the missile seeker is passive, collecting the reflections painted by the ground radar…a radio downlink from the missile to the radar sends that target reflection from the passive seeker back to the ground computer, which calculates the intercept and uplinks that guidance back to the missile…

    Nobody is talking about TVM here. And track via missile is as old as I am, this goes also for such complexes as P-6/35. The issue is a complete autonomous operation of an active homing device on latest AD missiles. Just three-four days ago Gorshkov finally employed its Poliment-Redut in its full capacity. 9M96 (E..) has “smart” head, it is also part of the “arsenal” for S-400. I reiterate–it is not about TVM. Approach to “rubezh poiska” (the edge of search) with active seeker fully engaged in search-track-lock on mode has zero to do with TVM. The missile arrives to this edge on inertial guidance with, if necessary, radio-command updates (correction). After that–it knows what to do by doing DO-poisk. (fine over-search). That is why so many people were anxious in Russia and, especially, abroad waiting for successful conclusion of trials of this missile and complex. Especially its naval version.

    the Russian doctrine

    Russian fighting doctrine(s) change(s) with the advancements of technology and those advancements are coming really fast. I am very keenly aware how those things change and which documents reflect those changes and how system of “inserts” (vkladyshy) works. Per AF, we are not talking here about Air Force.

    So I think you are stretching things a bit here

    I never offer my opinion on things of which I am not reasonably well assured. On this thing I am 100% positive.

    • Replies: @FB
  255. FB says:
    @Vojkan

    ‘Btw, this is a definite proof that you don’t know the principle of a gyroscope…’

    You’re really a mouthy fucking twerp aren’t you…?

    ‘Now tell me why would armies rely on imprecise inertial navigation for their cruise missiles when they can feed rhem with precise latitudes and longitudes. Tell me please, how do you reprogram on short notice a Tomahawk’s target with only inertial navigation.

    So first you inform me that I don’t know anything…and then you ask me to explain how this stuff works…?

    Don’t you think it’s a bit late in the day for asking me to explain stuff to you…after all your ridiculous assertions about how much YOU supposedly ‘know’…?

    But for the sincere folks on this forum who may be interested in how this stuff works I will explain…

    First of all, inertial navigation is not ‘imprecise’…it can be pinpoint precise over vast distances as used in ICBMs…such as the advanced inertial reference sphere…

    It has a drift of one one-hundred thousandth of a degree per hour…that is more than enough to guide an ICBM flight which can cover 10,000 km in 30 minutes to pinpoint accuracy…the actual circular error probable is solely a function of atmospheric conditions, such as temperature and winds aloft…so no possible accuracy improvement can be made…

    Inertial systems using ring laser gyros are not as accurate, but they are still the MAIN navigation device for commercial aircraft…I have been flying as a commercial pilot for many years and I can tell you that GPS/Glonass receivers have only recently started being added to the avionics…there is a road map for more reliance on satnav in commercial aviation…called GNSS…

    The International Civil Aviation Organization (ICAO), as well as other international user groups, have accepted GPS and GLONASS as the core for an international civil satellite navigation capability known as the Global Navigation Satellite System (GNSS).

    There are a number of issues with satnav…it uses radio signals from satellites in medium earth orbit [about 20,000 km] and a ground or aircraft based radio receiver to receive those signals and triangulate position, height, direction and speed information…Those satellites are moving around the earth all the time, and a certain number of satellites must be in ‘view’ of the receiver at any given time in order to calculate these parameters…this is not always the case…

    For commercial aircraft operations GPS radios have a self-diagnostic function called RAIM…which stands for receiver autonomous integrity monitoring…it is not unusual to get a RAIM warning light up on your instrument panel while in flight, which means the satnav is inop…that is why satnav is not relied on as a PRIMARY nav source…

    Also since the satellites are that high, its radio signal by the time it reaches earth is quite weak [due to inverse square law, where wave energy decreases by the square of the distance]…that means those weak signals can be easily disrupted or jammed…even with hobby grade equipment…

    ‘In 2011, GPS jamming at the civilian level became a governmental concern.[3] The relative ease in ability to jam these systems has motivated the military to reduce navigation dependence on GPS technology.[4] As of 2015, inertial navigation sensors could not be jammed.’

    In fact there is no physical means available to disrupt an inertial nav system, since it is self-contained and uses no radio signals…

    For cruise missiles specifically, the main navigation system is inertial…it is not a super high end system so there is some drift error during flight…this drift error is corrected not by GPS but by ‘waypoints’ that are programmed into the flight route…these are basically terrain photos taken by satellite and stored as a ‘map’ in the onboard nav system…the missile’s optical sensors scan for these features [often landmarks like bridges or buildings and such] and make a match when they get to that waypoint…that way the exact coordinate position at that time is known and the inertial system is updated to correct for drift…this is called digital scene mapping area correlator [DSMAC]…

    Satellite navigation systems are precise and cheap. Unfortunately, they rely on satellites. If the satellites are interfered with (e.g. destroyed) or if the satellite signal is interfered with (e.g. jammed), the satellite navigation system becomes inoperable.

    Therefore, the GPS-based (or GLONASS-based) navigation is useful in a conflict with a technologically unsophisticated adversary. On the other hand, to be ready for a conflict with a technologically advanced adversary, one needs missiles equipped with TAINS and DSMAC.

    The GPS part of the guidance is typically used only in the terminal phase where the extra accuracy is useful.but is not crucial if it is jammed, since the precision will be pretty good anyway, on the order of maybe 10 meters with just inertial…that’s plenty close for a half ton warhead…

    As for how an inertial nav system works, I had already explained that before…but you chose to mouth off [while possessing zero actual knowledge]…

    The gyros are used to measure the angular velocity of the flight vehicle…the linear accelerations are measured by accelerometers…since we know our precise starting position…then by keeping track of both the angular velocity changes [ie pitch, roll and yaw] and the linear accelerations, it is simple math to integrate those data using kinematic equations to find the velocity of the vehicle…integrating again, we find the exact position [ie latitude, longitutde and height coordinates]…

    As for programming the guidance system, it is done the same as programming a flight plan into an aircraft nav system…it is something that every pilot knows how to do…it is always done using waypoints…which are defined in the airspace system for commercial flight…for cruise missiles a similar approach is used and there is a database of such ‘map’ info that is used in programming a flight…

    This is of course more challenging in the military paradigm because the precision of the topological and geographical features needs to be quite precise, and such features might change over time…a lot of times we have seen cruise missiles ‘clobber’ or fly into terrain…they are not very agile flight vehicles [high wing loading and low thrust to weight], so programming these flight plans is crucial, and is probably a part of the mission that is sometimes not done so well…

    The bottom line is that satnav continues to play a minor supporting role because any radio device can be interfered with…the Iranians managed to take over a sophisticated USAF RQ170 Sentinel UAV and land it intact…imagine if you used radio devices in an ICBM and your adversary took control of it and landed it on your head…

  256. anon[356] • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I agree with your assessment.
    I echo your analysis: many in the West wish to see the Great Satan (Israel) pummelled by Russia/Iran et al. This view will always be dissatisfied by Russian policy (to solve the Syrian issue to achieve mutual goals).
    Having lived in the West all our lives we do not wish to continue to suffer fom Jewish racism, hatred, parasitism and poisoning of our politics and Institutions. We live in Weimar 2.0. It is a preview of hell.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  257. EugeneGur says:
    @peterAUS

    Well, a word “capitalized” usually mean something else, some kind of profit, material or political, extracted from the event in question. If anything, Russia lost politically and certainly gained nothing materially.

    But when Primakov, then the Russian Foreign Minister, having heard about the bombing, turned his plane heading for Washington around in mid-air, that was the start of pulling ourselves out by the hair.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  258. @anon

    This view will always be dissatisfied by Russian policy (to solve the Syrian issue to achieve mutual goals).

    You nailed it. 100%.

  259. peterAUS says:
    @EugeneGur

    Well, a word “capitalized” usually mean something else, some kind of profit, material or political, extracted from the event in question. If anything, Russia lost politically and certainly gained nothing materially.

    Well as exposed Russia hater, Croat, Israeli/Hasbara, Neocon here, I disagree.

    Russia and, more importantly, all those who don’t much like The Current Empire did capitalize on the “Angel ’99″.

    Russia got Putin.
    Ah, yes, being Putin hater too not easy for me to say that was VERY good. Granted, after the drunkard did what he did probably the Devil himself would’ve been better.
    Trump/The Bitch comparison, maybe?

    So, Russia definitely got a LOT politically, economically, spiritually etc. Didn’t lose anything materially.

    Georgia slapping around was …….very nice.

    Ukraine started quite well, until I saw the Paras with no magazines in rifles and no proper markings. Let’s skip the rest. Including the latest murder and…ahm…elections….coming up.

    Jumping into Syria was beautiful. For a month.

    So, definitely better than the drunkard but, say, not as good as it could’ve been.

  260. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    No…the point is there is a wide variety of seeker heads…passive anti-radiation, semi-active, fully active etc…

    The doctrine of having a diversity of seekers has not changed, the addition of those you mention that can be targeted initially by passive ELS systems is a good addition, but that’s all…and that only adds to the doctrine of having a diversity of seeker heads…

    As for TVM being old, command link is even older…and is still used, including in some of those schemes you mentioned…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  261. Kiza says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Who did the Russians think they were confronting when they went into Syria? I really will not react any more to that favorite bull of yours about the whole World (me, us) wanting the Russians to die countering the Jewish territorial and economic expansion (obviously, there may be a few frustrated people who would like that). This is just one of a set of discredited arguments that you and your side keeps running over-and-over in a circle. I have answered all such bull arguments before. Thus, I realize that it is both pointless and that I have nothing new to add.

    Good luck to the all-knowing, nothing to learn, Russian armchair marshals, or rather good luck to the poor Russian souls who think that they have quality leadership.

    I come out of this discussion with a disheartening but useful insight about the chasm between the classes in Russia. I am actually planning to re-read War and Peace and a few other Russian novels, which I read when I was a child. This would be in a new light now, to understand this insensitivity of the “elite” towards the (“unwashed”) masses. Does it come out of the lack of empathy or some other trait? Such insensitivity is not typical even in the very class-conscious Western societies, such as Britain (I wrote not typical, not that it does not exist).

    Ultimately, maybe peterAus is spot on that the words of these semi-Russians living abroad have little to do with how the real Russians who may need to do the dying feel.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  262. Milton says:
    @FB

    The Neocon’s Unjust War against Serbia is a crime that has yet to go punished. But Justice will eventually come, in this life or the next for those responsible. Many of those responsible are Zionists. I don’t like to call them Jewish because they are an affront to true followers of the Law and Covenant handed down by Moses. They are really just the descendants of the same Baal-worshiping Israelites whom Elijah contended with; they are descendants of Ahab, Jehoram, Manasseh; they are descendants of those who crucified the Messiah; they are descendants of the wicked Israelites led by John and Simon and Eleazar who brought Jerusalem and the Second Temple to ruin. They will bring the West and the modern, Zionist State of Israel to ruin. They do not enjoy God’s protection or Blessing. God will send a modern day Titus to chastise them. I’m just not sure anymore that Putin is that Titus.

  263. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    I come out of this discussion with a disheartening but useful insight about the chasm between the classes in Russia.

    Took you some time. Still, better then never. And…hehe…NOW you’ll get into trouble here.
    Good luck.

    This would be in a new light now, to understand this insensitivity of the “elite” towards the (“unwashed”) masses. Does it come out of the lack of empathy or some other trait?

    Keep digging. The rabbit hole there I found quite…….interesting.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  264. Dax2 says:

    There are a lot of clouded arguments and flawed facts in this thread that are very likely due to posters’ passionate desire to be right.

    Russia could not really help serbia, and other distressed middle east and african countries, in the 1990s because its economic, financial and military systems were still seriously sick from yeltsin- and sovietization-withdrawal symptoms. It couldnt even help itself, as it was just picking the pieces from its ruined life as a sovereign nation.

    It is also true that us/nato countries successfully dumbed-down history and news for a lot of people. Too many today think that the capitalism and militarism versions used to control economic and social progress in us/nato countries are winning, right and righteous. It reminds one who has the persistence to work through the math of the policy prescriptions of (neo)liberal and even classical macroeconomics that such field and its fake “nobel prizes” are the same as witchcraft.

    So to with “stealth” aircraft. Martyanov and FB did explain a lot of s300 expert stuff in plain language. The essence really is that, if you have enough military-grade radar families (very low to very high frequency) and optronics (eg, infrared and visible light scanners) installed in syria — say a nice fat odd number like 10 s300 sets — you can fully see THE BELLIES of alleged stealthy fighters plain enough. If you have awacs and satellite-based scanners too, then you can literally see f22s and f35s from top to bottom!! Then, you can do a patton and try to shoot them jets down with your trusty ol’ 45. Or you can use lots of russian missiles that can do mach4-9 even for old ones that are relatively inexpensive.

    Israel and us/nato countries have invaded and committed really bad invasion and war crimes in syria and elsewhere. The syrians are in good position to make them pay as justice — a concept missing in american, nato and israeli vocabularies — demands.

    So, whats next then?!

    First, syria has to ask for help in neutralizing the russian, arabic and farsi speaking mossad spies. Pakistani agents can help here as they have the record, patience and cruelty required to neutralize vicious jewry spies.

    Second, the syrians should ask russia to put at least 5-10 modestly equipped military satellites required to wipe out the israeli, us and nato infestation within its borders. Aside from complementing their S300s, the satellite monitoring will allow low-cost use even by iranian, hizbollah, afghan, and palestinian allies of cutting-edge yet light russian precision artillery and sniper rifles to eliminate the many small pockets of us/nato invaders. Russia may even throw in the innovative infrared-defeating cooling coverlets for snipers and small artillery teams.

    Third, syrians must shoot down israeli warjets over israel airspace itself. It must send a clear demonic message to jewry pilots that their own country cannot protect them. This is geopolitically reasonable and feasible as the israeli government has formally announced many times already that invasion and war crimes in syria is its foreign policy. This is supported by admissions that israeli military incursions in syria can reach 200 a year.

    The israelis cannot use their nukes safely. The only reason why the usa bombed japan in ww2 was because the other countries have no available nuke counterstrikes. The us and uk actually planned to nuke down russia, korea and vietnam too. If israel uses nukes, there will be no reasons anymore for syria, iran and other countries not to melt down israel too. American militarists do want a first massive nuke strike on russia and china today. But they know the american damage will be far worse as they have more to lose, and more evil sins to pay for.

    Fourth, syrians like palestinians, must work with effective asymmetrical responses to israeli military incursions by announcing and targetting soft israeli targets around the world. Syria can state that, for every child and woman massacred in aleppo and raqqa, it will shut down an israeli businessman and his family wherever they are.

    Watch then how israel’s economy and evil military succumbs to true justice.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  265. peterAUS says:
    @Dax2

    Started O.K. and then “progressed”…….anyway.

    The last is the “best”:

    Syria can state that, for every child and woman massacred in aleppo and raqqa, it will shut down an israeli businessman and his family wherever they are.

    Shoot down you meant I presume.

    Sounds as a plan. Why don’t you send that to Assad? Not directly, of course. Just pick up any Syrian diplomatic presence you find convenient. Actually, you could even walk there with the suggestion.
    Good luck.

    • Replies: @Dax2
  266. Dax2 says:
    @peterAUS

    Syrians do read unz.com even though anatoly karlin says their iq is only a bomb-worthy 85.

    Shut down it is. For one who writes in english, you do have a poor grasp of what shut down means.

    Where is “progressed”!? Did you read something that wasnt there?

  267. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    How come you are such an expert on the Russian soul peterAUS? I am asking seriously and a little cynically. Unless you are at some university or in ASIO (Australian CIA, but a slave of MI6) and you spend the whole day reading Russian historical literature and following modern Russia, how would you know how deep that rabbit hole of intra-Russian relations is?

    I am in trouble with almost everyone here already, you said it yourself. But so is everybody else against almost everybody else, except for a few slavish followers of Martyanov, FB and Karlin.

    One day, I may even share my story how and why I left the home country (because I do not care that it would make the mugs laugh). It is most relevant to this whole discussion: I became similarly unpopular (could possibly have been lynched) for my views in a country which was hurling into a war, just like Russia is now. It did not make me any happier that I could have said after – did not I tell you so? One constant in life appears to be – nearly all people only listen to themselves or to brute force (when it hits them, explicitly them, on the head). Also, the number of people against you is seldom proportional to how wrong you may be, there only may be a positive correlation to how right you may be.

    Is it not supremely ironic that my efforts to try find an alternative approach is being treated as an attack by most (but not all) Russians here? Maybe only Yuri and Felix understand that I am trying to help. Other (semi-) Russians attack the messenger because my message is not what they want to read and no alternatives are permitted. Shallow. Once it happens, they say – I knew it and I said so.

  268. So are the 3 S-300PMs just given to Syria free, added to the 4 discussed here?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  269. Avery says:
    @Milton

    {Well, it looks like Putin bowed to his Israeli masters….}

    No matter what Putin does, it will always be ‘Putin bowed to his Israeli masters’, in some people’s fertile imagination.

    The reality is that Putin’s supposed masters would have liked very much if Putin – bowing to the orders of his Israeli masters, of course – had rejected President Assad’s request for the Russian AF to come in and start cauterizing the cannibal infestation in Syria in 2015.

    Had Putin actually bowed to anyone, today Assad would be gone, SAA would be defunct, the Syrian State would be no more…… And Israel and Turkey and all the other vultures in the region would be feasting on Syria’s carcass.

    S-300 of whatever version is plenty capable, if those using it know what they are doing.
    It has been written in several posts already in this thread how Serbs managed to keep NATO bombers flying at very high altitudes for fear of being shot down: and Serbs did it with relatively ancient Soviet era missile systems (compared to high tech NATO equipment). And Serbs also brought down an American “stealth” F-117 with the same ancient radar and missiles.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  270. papa says:
    @Wally

    try saying those statements in Germany for eample, you will be locked up for minimum 6 yrs

  271. @Kiza

    I am touched by beautiful gay love.
    Romeo and Juliet

  272. @FB

    As for TVM being old, command link is even older…and is still used, including in some of those schemes you mentioned…

    New generation of missiles, what used to be called in USSR/Russia URO (Upravlyaemoe Raketnoe Oruzhie–Guided Missile Weapons) is built around “shoot-and-forget” principle, especially important in AD which allows dramatically accelerate tempo by “withdrawing” illumination and guidance, thus freeing guidance channels in radar, from fully autonomous missiles, capable to search, track and lock on target pretty much on their own. Most of it is achieved through increased processing power, good math and elements of AI. The only thing which changes here is the range at which missile goes into full “hunting” mode, which depends on several factors. Yesterday, Frantz Klintzevitch (himself former officer), First Deputy Chair of Federation Council Security Committee flatly stated that any type of aircraft is seen and tracked over Syria (where Russian coverage is present), including so called “stealth”.

    • Replies: @FB
  273. @Rabbitnexus

    So are the 3 S-300PMs just given to Syria free

    Yes, Three “diviZions” of S-300PM are transferred to Syria for free (no payment required).

  274. @jgarbo

    I know there are no S-700s, you nitwit. Did you even read the article?

    The Syrians shot down a Russian plane. Deal with it.

  275. yurivku says:
    @Kiza

    How come you are such an expert on the Russian soul peterAUS?

    Don’t you bother with this f*cken bastard piter. He’s already proved hundred times who he is.
    I just ignore him.

    Is it not supremely ironic that my efforts to try find an alternative approach is being treated as an attack by most (but not all) Russians here?

    I did not notice it. BTW there are not many Russians here except those you’ve called. Some like karlin actually a Rissian only by name.

    All others points in your message are just hot air (or may be my English just to bad).

    Maybe only Yuri and Felix understand that I am trying to help.

    Don’t think we need help, I think you, those who are living on so called West urgently need help. But only they can help themselves.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  276. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I am perfectly confident that the Russian radars are effortlessly tracking all aircraft in the region…’stealth’ or otherwise…

    I had already discussed [in detail] in a previous comment the MIC scam known as ‘stealth’…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  277. @FB

    I had already discussed [in detail] in a previous comment the MIC scam known as ‘stealth’…

    The truth is, at this stage one has to ask a question (especially with known precedents in mind)–if this whole “stealth” thingy was one of the greatest operations of influence. After all, Ufimtsev published in open press a number of articles on wave dispersion in radio diapason. So it wasn’t any secret as it was presented initially in Western media. Issues of LO aircraft were very well described as early as 1980-83 in Foreign Military Review (ZVO–Zarubezhnoye Voennoe Obozrenie)–at that time, in 1983, I was preparing a large course work on Falkland War and was stumbling upon these “stealth” topics all the time when using ZVO for my purposes. It was, obviously, very clear that this issue was not dominating Soviet/Russian minds since basic radar formula is basic radar formula and RCS and Power in impulse in what really matters (well, that plus properties of antenna–DNA in Russian, no relation to genes). Of course, Serbs dealt a very serious blow to this whole “concept” but by far more important today is this “mystery” of Israeli F-35 allegedly hit by “birds” (Syrian birds, I assume) and hysterical “damage control” reaction of Western pop-military “experts”. Modern AD missiles have it all, from active radar to passive channels, to optronic ones, so, there is no point to built some flying bricks (literally made of gold) good only for bombing third world shitholes with no serious AD, let alone capable AF. I guess F-15X rumors are a bit of a proof of a complete failure of this whole “stealth” concept (the way it was implemented in the US) when speaking about peer-to-peer (or near peer) “competition”.

    • Replies: @FB
  278. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    How come you are such an expert on the Russian soul peterAUS?

    ..how would you know how deep that rabbit hole of intra-Russian relations is?

    Wrong questions.

    One constant in life appears to be – nearly all people only listen to themselves or to brute force (when it hits them, explicitly them, on the head). Also, the number of people against you is seldom proportional to how wrong you may be, there only may be a positive correlation to how right you may be.

    Something like that.

    Is it not supremely ironic that my efforts to try find an alternative approach is being treated as an attack by most (but not all) Russians here?

    Not really.

    You appear to be….. naive.

    I suggest you work on your ability to at least recognize, if not understand, darker sides of human nature. From simple self interest to psychopathology, and everything in between.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  279. peterAUS says:
    @Avery

    Pretty much.

    I see comparisons with “Angel ’99″ and Syria stuff a lot around here.
    And….hahaha…..political correctness galore. On, fundamentally US alt-right site where hard core Nazi kooks post with no restrictions. Funny.

    Missiles, systems, hardware, software, blah…blah…blah……

    A couple of us, only, about SERBS vs SYRIANS.
    White, Christian, Europeans………vs M.E. Arabs.

    Look at that mess Assad forces are even now after all that time and Russian help. Just look at them. How they look like, how they behave, how they move, do the most basic military stuff….that serious armed forces?

    Look at Serbs in Kosovo ’99. And they spent, LOSING (yes..yes…don’t start me there) wars from ’91. Hard wars. Heavy sanctions. Nobody’s help.
    Look how their troops look like. Look how they move, behave. Any Serb (reserve) motorized brigade in Kosovo was more combat effective than any outfit SAA has.

    Oh, wait. Around 90 % people here can’t, actually, just by looking at a unit for, say, 10 minutes, “get” it. Ah, well……
    Question for you guys:
    Pick a sport you are good at. Any. Then, for 10 minutes only, look at a person/team who plays it. See…..? That’s what I am talking about.

    Crackup.

  280. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘The truth is, at this stage one has to ask a question (especially with known precedents in mind)–if this whole “stealth” thingy was one of the greatest operations of influence.’

    Yup…I especially draw attention to the absolutely fake physics that is propagated by the MIC in regards to ‘stealth’ shaping of aircraft like the F22 and F35…

    Ufimtsev’s Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction makes very clear that the theory is all about the EDGE geometry…the English translation is available for download here…

    From the abstract…

    ‘The diffraction of plane electromagnetic waves by ideally conducting bodies, the surface of which have discontinuities, is investigated in the book.’

    Those ‘discontinuities’ are the key…the edges…as I stated already, this is the main insight of the theory, which was previously not known…that’s why it’s called the method of EDGE waves…as opposed to the until that time theory known as physical optics…

    Even in that simple wikipedia entry we are told this…

    ‘The ray-optics field or current is generally not accurate near edges or shadow boundaries, unless supplemented by diffraction and creeping wave calculations.’

    It is exactly that edge wave ‘diffraction’ that is the subject of Ufimtsev’s theory…and is what is referred to here…

    In the concluding remarks in his book, Ufimstsev describes a couple of examples of geometric shapes, one of them being a cone…he shows that the strength of the radar return, measured by experiment, is ‘tens of decibels’ stronger than that predicted by physical optics theory…

    ‘The deciding factor here is the nonuniform part of the current flowing in the vicinity of the sharp circular base rim of the conical surface…’

    So like I said…it is all about the EDGES…that is exactly why the F117 was actually a low observable design…and which Col Riccioni confirmed…

    Now I’m not a radio physicist and neither was Col Riccioni…but it doesn’t take a genius to read the Ufimtsev book and brush up on physical optics [provided you have the physics fundamentals to begin with]…

    The MIC propaganda is simply bullshit…those curved shapes have no chance to take advantage of the edge treatments that are the core of the physics involved here…

    And speaking of the F117, it was actually a quite good and capable airplane in many respects…unlike the F22 and F35 which are smoke and mirrors…based on the simple physical facts…

    Here is a range comparison chart from Lockheed…

    Note that the F22 in ‘clean’ configuration…ie no drop tanks…has a range advantage of less than 100 nautical miles over the F117, which can carry twice as much payload…

    And if the F22 performs a 100 nm supercruise [supersonic flight without afterburners] its range is actually less than that of the F117…

    We also note here that the F22′s much-hyped ‘supercruise’ capability is also smoke and mirrors…which comes as no surprise to anyone who knows anything about jet engines…we see from the graph that ‘supercruising’ just 100 nm cuts the range by nearly 150 nm…so what’s the point…?

    Again this is another gimmick to feed the comic-book press…the notion that afterburners are inefficient just isn’t true…in certain flight regimes afterburners are MORE efficient, not less…as Col Riccioni also points out…

    Clearly the USAF is quietly giving up on the ‘Raptor’ anyway…it was supposed to be eventually upgraded with an infrared search and track pod, which lets the aircraft detect opposing aircraft without turning on its radar [and thus giving its own position away]…so that has been scrapped…

    The F22 did finally get two years ago the high off-boresight heat seeking air to air missile…which is usually used with a helmet mounted sight that lets the pilot launch a missile at a target while simply looking at it, and not having to point the aircraft nose directly at the target [but not on the Raptor, since the US still doesn't have a proper helmet sight...something Russian pilots have had for 30 years...]

    Also the fact that the ‘Raptor’ needs something like 60 hours of maintenance for each flight hour, is just one of many reasons why it is basically an airshow piece and not much more…besides, the MIC now has much bigger [and more lucrative] fish to fry with the F35…

  281. Krollchem says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    “NATO could doubtless drive the Russians out of Syria but only at great cost that they cannot bear politically.”

    First, NATO + Israel cannot wipe out the Russian forces as their missile + radar +EW systems could take out all the “Western” forces. Granted some of the anti-ship missiles would have to be launched from Russian territory. Please take a good accounting of the various missile systems in Syria and their types, numbers, ranges, speeds, detect to launch times, and reloading times. Consider that almost all of the Syrian systems were upgraded since the IL-20 shoot down and that the Pantsir and BUK systems may also be newly equipped with sub-munition rockets that increase the number of targets acquired by a factor of 4x.

    Second, politics has nothing to do with it as the Russian response of destroying the NATO forces with conventional weapons would trigger a tactical nuclear (TNW) response by the US and its allies leading to full scale nuclear war and Nuclear Winter. Russian policy makers know system dynamics and game theory while the West plays poker, which is why Russia is restrained in its responses.

    Third, Russia and China know that the West is self destructing and will soon face revolutions or Fascist dictatorships as described by Chris Hedges:

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @FB
  282. Kiza says:
    @yurivku

    Hello Yuri, thanks for replying. I did distinguish that you do live in Russia unlike many of these other commenters, and have more skin in this discussion. This is what I tried to highlight.

    Whether people in Russia need more or less help than the people living in the West, I am not sure. The “accident” with IL20 will be quickly forgotten, as they usually are, by all except the families. Those who prepared the accident are obviously highly intelligent in a mean way. But every new day is another chance to win the next one. I am sure that the Russians will have some wins in the future.

    Yet, I am sure that most things I wrote before about this situation do stand. The Russians may win to live another day as a successful nation not because they fought smart then because their enemy, including us living in the West, is in a worse shape than Russia is. But a win is a win, for all those who did not pay with their lives for it, no matter how it was obtained through smarts or by persistence.

    I should fade into the background and let all of you smart guys win your win without any of my unwanted help (LOL).

  283. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    I do accept your last point, although things are a bit complex around it. I have no problem starting from a premises that there is more good in people than bad, or to be more precise, that 10% of the general population tries to do bad where 1% is psychopathic, 20% are trying to do good and 70% are the grey in-betweeners. It is just that in some areas you will encounter more of the non-grey people, areas such as for example politics (psychopaths), journalism (scumbags) and so on. Giving everyone the benefit of the doubt is not being naive.

    Regarding your and my gay love affair, as some worthless individual here called it, is it more right if I am a women? I am not a liberal then a libertarian bordering on conservative and I am definitely not pro-gay rights in the contemporary sense, but there are some true mindless shitbag extremists on both sides of the gay debate.

    Your and my “gay love affair” started not because we agreed then because you accepted that looking at an issue from different angles almost always helps. This is a top level and most general policy issue that I do care about and you appear to do as well. Thus we found something in common.

    Anyway, to console all our detractors, our love affair will not last long. On the next issue we will be at each other’s throats again. Like you, I can certainly respect a debating opponent who remains civil, even if we totally disagree on substantive issues. One can learn even from people that one totally disagrees with. To explain on a small example, once we found this common attitude above, I perused a link you quoted and it helped me understand some things better. If I continued dismissing you, as before, I would have missed that insight. Or another example, this FB troll I have negative respect for because he totally lacks character, like a politician he bends reality and other people’s words, so that he is right even when he is not. Yet, I will sometimes spend a minute to read his long mumbling foraging his swill for some pearl of wisdom. Not too often. In other words, the people and their arguments must be separated, although this can become very difficult with those who lack character.

    But I am totally off topic, time to go to another article. Thanks peterAUS for helping me make this discussion more interesting.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  284. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    …10% of the general population tries to do bad where 1% is psychopathic, 20% are trying to do good and 70% are the grey in-betweeners…

    Something like that. Including posters here. Hehe…the thing is, those “eleven” tend to be more motivated. Especially that one percent. Understandable.

    …looking at an issue from different angles almost always helps….

    Yup.

    …. the people and their arguments must be separated, although this can become very difficult with those who lack character.

    Gets easier and faster with experience.
    BTW, those do have character, it’s just of, say, peculiar type.

    … But I am totally off topic..

    Not really. Not at all.
    Ever thought that “people watching” is what this site is, mostly, all about? “Know your enemy” thing. Even “know your own side”.
    Just an idea.

  285. Krollchem says:
    @Johnny Rico

    Starship Trooper,

    You just proved you know nothing about the NATO war against FRY. Since you never offer any educational links or substantial comments please go back to playing US propaganda war games for kiddies such as Call of Duty.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  286. FB that’s a wealth of information I read above from you. Here’s a few other things I’d like to add, I’m not as knowledgeable as some of you guys on the topic however I’m a enthusiast of this stuff and feel there’s a few important key points that were left out in the great analyses going on here:

    1. firstly, to my knowledge stealth planes reflect the radar waves mostly downward (correct me if I’m wrong). The problem is, stealth planes were designed for a certain type of scenario and the Syrian current situation is way too complex for them to be able to be utilized properly as per their original design. That design did not foresee having a bizarre situation where there is a peer enemy who you are not allowed to engage (Russia in this case) who is all over the place and tracking you and feeding your enemy all the information yet you are not allowed to take them out. So with that said, if the only avenue of approach the F-35 can utilize is from the mediterranean sea in order to use stand off range to try to penetrate the syrian AD as they did in the last strike, well if they are approaching the Latakia coast for instance from the mediterranean, and the ‘stealth’ craft is hit with radar waves which are bounced downward. Well guess what is positioned directly beneath them in the “downward” position. You guessed it, a bunch of Russian ships with extremely powerful radars. As we know Russian frigate presence has been amped recently to its highest level and they are crawling over the mediterranean. So it seems like a lose lose situation for Israel because the “stealth” craft as was discussed many times here is only optimized for frontal at same altitude and reflecting everywhere else will be giving a much stronger signal to all the other russian assets spread out all around beneath and to the sides of the craft.

    Ofcourse I dont know if it’s fully confirmed yet the level of integration that Russia supposedly will bless the SAA AD with but if Russia allows full signal integration i.e. allows Syrian assets to be able to “see” from Russian S400 radars, mediterranean ship radars, etc, etc, in real time, then the F35 should be dead meat because it was not designed to be flying straight in a theatre where it’s being hit from EVERY direction with radars which are comically “off limits” and not allowed to be hit. The whole point of how these craft were designed and how SEAD is designed to occur would be to get rid of those radar threats first and in this case the ROE forbids it because there is no way Israel will strike Russian assets so the whole stealth thing is moot .

    2. Secondly, I’d like to mention that, for the moron that was talking about how Stealth the F35 is, or what can or can’t be jammed, and how long wave radars can see it but can’t produce a accurate enough locking solution, there’s a serious lack of IR band discussion here. Some people seem to forget that the F35 is only “stealth” to radio waves, not to infraRed. So what does that mean? Two important things:

    A. most missiles have IR homing capabilities which means that a long wave radar can point to a general area where the stealth craft is spotted, and then the missile can be fired and guided to that area and as it gets close enough where the IR detection picks up on the IR signal, then the missile will now easily home in on the F35 turkey. Remember, no matter how much IR reduction the stealth planes have gotten, there’s not much you can really do to a giant plasma flame blasting out the rear of the plane at several thousand degrees fahrenheit, sorry, just not possible. An IR homing missile will see it and track it easily.

    B. and secondly, F22 in Syria was recently proven to be tracked by Russian Su35 infrared search and track and was detected and photographed. So these planes are by no means “stealth” in the infrared (heat seeking) spectrum.

    3. Another thing most people forget about L band radars is that even though the wave may be too large to give an accurate fire solution track of the target, most people don’t know that the radar signals can be combined from different radars and the target triangulated much more accurately from the signals which are bouncing off due to several different L band radars coming from DIFFERENT SIDES/directions. That’s why the Su57 is supposed to be so powerful with L band radar on its wings because several Su57′s traveling in a cluster spread out will have an integrated feed of their L band radars that will combine the “vague” target data into a much more accurate triangulation that will give target lock quality firing solution. So similarly, several radars spread out on the ground can have their data linked to where the long wave radars will hit the F35 from various different sides and then be combined in the targeting computer to produce a much more exact target that can be fired upon.

    4. There was a lot of talk of F117 shoot down. To my knowledge the shoot down occurred when the F117 opened its bomb bay doors and that lit up its radar signature for the brief and critical half a minute or so time period that its bomb bay doors were open when it was bombing civilians. This allowed the Serb AD to see it on the radar screens and shoot it down.

    5. As for the F35 being tracked by civilian ATC in Beirut, the one thing people have to remember is to my knowledge it’s been proven that F-35′s which are in theatre, have been flying with luneberg reflectors / radar reflectors which are attachments deliberately placed onto fuselage by the u.s. in order to ‘destealth’ the plane so that its true radar characteristics / profile can’t be studied by the Russians until necessary. These have been spotted from my research in Eritrea and Djibouti based F-35′s so I wouldn’t be surprised if the ones flying in Israel also have this for now until the need to strike so maybe that’s why ATC is picking it up. Just a thought. Or maybe the ‘stealth’ is really that terrible and really THAT dependent on “same altitude” radar reflections.

    Those are my thoughts for now, will probably have more next time !

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @FB
  287. Kiza says:
    @Dimitriy Koralev

    I know that there are better experts here but here is my two cents worth.
    1. No, the stealth planes do not reflect downwards, they aim to reflect away from the receiver, which is usually although not always co-located with the radar transmitter. The main problem with “stealth” is that it involves severe compromises in other capabilities and thus its only battle scenario becomes the stealth: approach a target unobserved and destroy it from the greatest distance that your missiles can do it. Thus, if your stealth is countered then you have no other battle scenario left.

    2. The possible counter measures are out-of-spectrum illumination/detection and most of all battlefield sensor integration. The most reliable counter measure is this sensor integration and this is why the leader in stealth has developed the concept of integrated/networked attack missiles, hundreds of them even thousands, which in theory could overwhelm the air defence and destroy the networked sensors. IR detection is not as good a solution because it requires proximity (loss with distance), because there may be one big IR source in the sky and because the plane’s exhaust is not very visible from the front. The detection of F22 by SU35 was not a realistic battle scenario because F22 would have launched a missile at it much before the IR detection would have worked, in other words SU35 got too close.

    3. This scenario you describe with multiple L-band radars is a cut-down version of the full battlefield integrated sensors, those above the battlefield (AWACS, LEO satellites), those on the level – other fighters, those on ships and those on the ground. If fed into distributed computers, such network is quite hard to destroy and thus blind. You are correct that with such wealth of information air defence does not necessarily need targeting radars.

    4. Yes there was a talk of opened bombing doors. However, it was also the case that turning on any radar by Serbian AD was highly risky because they had only the old antennae which were both easily jammed and HARMed. The Serbians would usually turn on a radar for a limited number of minutes, before the HARM missiles could lock onto their position. There was a Serbian radar crew which remained on for too long and got destroyed with, I believe, seven dead. However, F117 usually flew without escort, because any supporting planes would defeat stealth and thus without HARM missiles (why would they need them when they are stealth). Therefore, it is possible that active radar were used, although the semi-official story was that it was detected via a passive radar.

    5. Yes, this is highly likely, it makes sense for other reasons as well and there has been plenty of this explanation on the Internet.

    Finally, the three main passive stealth techniques have been discussed here, which are obvious and not classified. But the US stealth planes also have the highly classified active stealth techniques, especially the Israeli and US F35s (Israel does not get the version that other “allies” get). No matter what those are and how effective they are, there is no doubt that nothing can escape good sensor integration.

    As to the main question regarding 12 Israeli F35 against the newly delivered S300s, it really boils down to how much integration the Russian-Syrian AD has and have the rules of engagement been changed to allow a duel of AD and the flying attackers. I do not think such duel will happen in Syria, for the same reasons it did not happen before. The whole discussion is academic.

    • Replies: @FB
  288. FB says:
    @Krollchem

    Good comment…it is delusional to think that Nato could somehow overwhelm the Russian forces in Syria, which include not only an extensive network of extremely survivable air defenses, but also an air wing which includes top notch fighter pilots flying very capable aircraft, AWACS aircraft, extensive electronic warfare capabilities etc…

    There is also the relative proximity to Syria of Russia’s southern military district…headquartered in Rostov-on-Don…which hosts the 4th Air and Air Defence Forces…

    The airbase at Krymsk hosts several fighter and bomber regiments and includes Sukhoi Flankers [Su27, Su30, Su35]…flight distance to Latakia, Syria is 660 miles [~1,000 km]…combat radius for the Flanker, probably the world’s most capable air superiority fighter is 1,600 km…and that’s on internal fuel [btw that is equal to the combat radius of the F22 with TWO 600 gallon drop tanks]…taking off with drop tanks these Flankers could get to the Eastern Med at subsonic cruise in less than an hour and patrol for two hours…

    Then there are the MiG31s also based there…in the air to air intercept role they carry air to air missiles with incredible range, up to 400 km [R37]…and would be hunting enemy AWACS, command and control aircraft [C4ISTAR], large electronic warfare aircraft and other high value targets…

    It is hard to imagine how Nato might plan to ‘overwhelm’ Russian air defenses and fighter aircraft in Syria while keeping such important SEAD assets out of range of both SAMs and MiG31s…

    It is a pipe dream…nothing less…I often point to the massive 78 day largely futile Nato air campaign against Serbia as a case study of the limitations of even overwhelming air power, in the face of competent air defense…

    To try to go up against Russian forces in Syria would be laughable…also some info on just how many S300s have been delivered to the Syrian air defense…it turns out to be a lot more than originally speculated…THREE full S300 battalions, consisting of EIGHT launchers each, for a total of 24 launchers and more than 300 missiles…plus all the radars and command and control equipment that goes with that…

    Three full AD battalions is a very serious amount of firepower…also as mentioned previously, it is very likely that the large amount of quite potent Syrian S200 missiles would be upgraded to be controlled by the powerful S300/400 radars…

    • Replies: @krollchem
  289. MacNucc11 says:
    @FB

    People tend to try and curry favor with those in power. These are the traitors you mention here and they are cowards to the last. They know there is money and material goods to be had selling out their people to whatever power it may be. They feel that if they side with the authority that it will not come down on them but they are always proved wrong. The commies, globalists, Zionists, take your pick always feed on their own eventually. Because of this they are never able to create anything permanent but must continually seek out a new host to parasitize.

  290. FB says:
    @Dimitriy Koralev

    There are some gaps in your understanding…that’s not a put down, but merely stating the necessity to clarify some of the misconceptions you mentioned…

    First I talked specifically about the physics of radio reflections in the context of the science that was pioneered and developed by Ufimtsev…and in a later comment here I gave the link to the book itself…

    The quite basic physics of wave reflection is that the angle of reflection is the same as the angle of incidence…ie the angle at which the wave strikes the plane…as shown here…

    That’s an example of ‘specular reflection’…

    There is also ‘diffuse reflection,’ where a wave bounces off in ALL directions, due to the microscopic irregularities INSIDE the material [its surface could be perfectly smooth]…

    This applies to waves both in the visible [light] and radio wavelengths…both are part of the electromagnetic spectrum…

    So the point of this basic reminder of the physics involved is that it is NOT possible to ‘steer’ the reflected radio wave as you suggest [downward, in your supposition]…

    In other words, ‘stealth’ has nothing to do with trying to deflect the waves in some particular direction…that is physically impossible, since they will go in all directions due to the nature of diffuse reflection…

    The entire idea of ‘stealth’ was Ufimtsev’s discovery that the STRENGTH of the reflected signal depends less on SIZE of the object and more on its EDGE GEOMETRY…

    So it is a game of reducing the STRENGTH, not the DIRECTION of radio reflections…

    Now the problem with that is again the angle at which the radio wave hits the object…and Ufimtsev devotes much work on that…the bottom line is that you can optimize the shape only for a specific angle of incidence, or at best, a limited range of angles of incidence…

    So there is no way to make an airplane give a very low return from all sides and all possible angles…it just can’t be done…like I already mentioned, even banking the airplane into a turn can increase its radar return by 100 fold…because it changes the angle at which the radio wave hits the aircraft…so that ‘stealth’ shaping doesn’t work…

    Now as far as the wavelength of the radar is concerned…this too is a major part of Ufimtsev’s work…

    ‘The linear dimensions of the bodies are assumed to be large in comparison with the wavelength.’

    Ie stealth shaping doesn’t work when the radar wavelength begins approaching the size of the aircraft features, such as the length of wing, a tail surface, or engine inlet…since wavelength varies inversely with frequency, it means low frequency radar can see ‘stealth’ shapes just fine, regardless of the angles involved…it ALWAYS sees them…

    Then there is the common misconception which you also repeat about how low frequency radar is used…it is true that the low frequency does not give high resolution…ie it cannot pinpoint the object’s exact position…this is due to the physics of radar beamwidth, which varies inversely with frequency, by the equation…beamwidth = wavelength divided by antenna size…so naturally a higher frequency and a bigger antenna will give a sharper beamwidth…

    However…the way this works is that the low frequency radar gives the high frequency radar a quite small sector in the sky where the ‘stealth’ object has been identified…the high frequency radar can then point exactly at this small area with its very sharp and precise beam and easily lock on to the ‘stealth’ target…

    This is exactly how the Serbs killed TWO F117s…their engagement radar was a high frequency 9 GHz unit, as I already explained…

    How does the high frequency radar see the ‘stealth’ aircraft…?…because it is very powerful and can see even a tiny object in the sky if it knows where to point…

    The idea of using a number of low frequency radars to hit the target from a number of different directions…and then fusing their returns into a much more accurate fix is possible, but such radar data fusion is an area of cutting edge development and no hard information is available…so it is only speculation as to whether this is actually used…

    But the same principle applies to the high frequency engagement radars…if they are networked, as they would be in the Russian air defense doctrine, then you have multiple radars looking at that ‘stealth’ aircraft from multiple angles…and possibly fusing that information to again achieve adequate precision for a missile shot…

    But even this is not actually necessary, as the Serbs proved…that ‘stealth’ airplane flying over the ground means the angle of the radar waves hitting it from even a single radar site will necessarily be changing constantly as the aircraft moves…

    And those F117 kills had nothing to do with opening bomb bay doors…I already explained much of this…it was a textbook case of the AD crew being very competent and using the equipment exactly as you’re supposed to…

    Again…it comes down to the fact that ‘stealth’ only works from specific angles…and it really only works against small and low power radars used in fighter aircraft…a very powerful radar with a big antenna will see tiny objects, and this includes high frequency radars…even a fighter aircraft radar can see a ‘stealth’ airplane from a certain distance…so it is all comes down to radar power…

    So even if the Serbs had tracked that F117 from a disadvantageous angle, it doesn’t matter, because the radar power and antenna size is just too much for anything to be able to hide…

    Like I said…the entire ‘stealth’ thing is a basically a scam to make money for MIC contractors…I have quoted here legendary USAF test pilot Col Riccioni who debunks this stuff very nicely…here is a little exercise he witnessed himself…

    ‘At Northrop I witnessed an interesting simulation event that relates to these tests. The adversaries were to prevent “blue” strike packages (formations) composed of F–15s (and sometimes very stealthy B-2s) escorted and protected by very stealthy ATFs, from entering their “red” airspace.

    Success against the intruders was very low at first. But, with time, a clever, thinking adversary (red) pilot created a system of tactics using their numbers to unmask the stealthy aircraft permitting successful attacks of the strike forces and the ATFs.

    To suppress their unanticipated and undesirable mounting successes, more and more cues were removed from the adversary aircraft until the test lost all semblance to reality. Needless to say, the successful adversary tactics and the unfavorable results went unrecorded and were certainly not reported to their superiors. The “script” prevailed; the ATF survived.

    One clue — no aircraft is truly invisible, hence the name “Low Observables.” Stealth is relative, not absolute and it varies with the aspects, the sensors, the ground environment, the situation and the tactics. Given numbers, there are ways to uncover them.’

    Here ATF is referring to the advanced tactical fighter program that resulted in the F22…and the war gaming scenario was strictly air to air, not air vs ground…this is just one instance that shows how a particular agenda is pushed through, regardless of objective test results…in the end the results are scripted in order to push through the desired piece of hardware…regardless of how well it actually works…

  291. @Krollchem

    Your obsession with me is really quite touching. I’m not really sure what the reference to Call of Duty is. I mean, certain versions were quite good, but it wouldn’t be my choice of video game. I don’t know what that has to do with the topics on this thread. Perhaps you’ve had a stroke recently.

    I’ll admit I’m not as expert on the 1999 Kosovo War as I am on most of the other conflicts of the last few centuries. Mostly because I don’t find the war particularly interesting. I only know what I’ve read in a few books and what I remember from 1999.

    It really isn’t that interesting a war. It highlighted the effectiveness of American air-power and precision guided munitions. The Clinton administration’s insistence on no American ground troops is also important. All of it served as encouragement for Rumsfeld, Cheney and the Bush administration to do what they did in 2003 in Iraq. So militarily/technologically it had somewhat immediate unintended consequences for the American military and Saddam Hussein.

    War Over Kosovo: Politics and Strategy in a Global Age (2002) edited by Andrew Bacevich and Eliot Cohen

    Black Aces High: The Story of a Modern Fighter Squadron at War (2002) by Robert Wilcox

    NATO’s Air War for Kosovo: A Strategic and Operational Assessment (2001)  by Benjamin S. Lambeth

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  292. @FB

    the Serb military fought Nato to a standstill in 1999 and Nato was forced to accept UNSC Resolution 1244…which affirms the territorial integrity of Serbia, the presence of its police, military and border guards in Kosovo etc…that is why Kosovo is not legally a country, has no UN seat, and never will…unless Serbia itself gives it away

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel

    Oops. Awkward. Whatever happened to Milosevic? Haven’t heard from him in a while.

  293. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Johnny Rico

    F- 16 in S China Sea ?
    F-16 in S China mainland ?

    2001 and again 2017 Americans decided to leave and tail dangling between the legs .
    Did F -16 lend a helping hand in Kabul?

    Quagmire – yes but that is in Eastern Syria and in Kabul- the ducks will come home or will lose the pants unable to cover the legs tails and the balls.

  294. FB says:
    @Kiza

    ‘The detection of F22 by SU35 was not a realistic battle scenario because F22 would have launched a missile at it much before the IR detection would have worked, in other words SU35 got too close.’

    That’s a ridiculous statement from someone who knows nothing first hand about the subject of air combat…in order to launch a missile, the engaging pilot needs to first get into a favorable position on the intended target…maneuvering into such a position against a top notch Russian pilot flying what is arguably the world’s most capable fighter jet is not something that is easily done…

    We can infer a couple of things from that incident…one, that Flanker was not there by accident…he was almost certainly directed to the Raptor by ground control which would have picked up the Raptor flight, as those big Russian radars pick up anything flying for hundreds of km around…

    Infrared sensors are quite good these days, but the story as reported is short on facts…all we know for sure is that the Flanker pilot snapped a photo of the Raptor…the idea that he found him with infrared is the figment of someone’s imagination in the comic book media…like I said he would have been directed there by ground control…

    • Replies: @Kiza
  295. krollchem says:
    @FB

    Thanks for all the important comments and detailed information on warfare capabilities of Russian vs US weapons systems. I have learned a lot from you, Martyanov and a couple of other posters. This expertise is out of my league as my background was atomic x-ray and plasma spectroscopy of specialty metals and their alloys.

    Since you have brought up the NATO war against FRY would you expect the Russian forces to deploy decoys as was done by the Serbian forces against the combined NATO forces? Those thirty thousand NATO sorties that “Starship Trooper” cited appeared to mainly destroy the following:
    (1) microwave oven arrays,
    (2) full scale Mig-29 plywood mockups,
    (3) Artillery mockups made of irrigation pipes and plywood, and
    (4) tanks made rubber and museum tanks (e.g. T-34s).

    Having failed this NATO switched to wide-scale infrastructure destruction to destroy the will to fight.

    • Replies: @FB
  296. How will Syria ever remove the US Military off of Syrian soil…1/3 of it….?

  297. dax2 says:

    FB and Martyanov have been remarkably patient in providing the technical reasons why attacking a russian-protected country with serious air defense assets is next to impossible once russia refuses to be embarrassed by the war criminals from us vassal states and the us overlord israel.

    Just consider that: radar and optoelectronic tracking is continuously improving every year; almost no new feasible models of stealth ideas have appeared for decades; missile and radar kill tracking technologies are getting faster and cheaper every year; and so forth.

    Other than russia’s willingness to be embarrassed to keep the peace and keep its killing secrets really confidential, and the immense chutzpah and arrogance being typically shown by the us and its allies despite having no real victory against strong opposition, nothing essential has changed.

    When the time of serious killing is upon us, the us, israel and nato countries will be the first to die and to never ever recover.

    There are too many who mistake the mass media noise from colonial supremacists as usable capabilities. It is just that russians do not want wars, and lots of americans think they can survive a war with russia. There will always be fools who rush in.

    • Agree: FB
  298. peterAUS says:
    @Johnny Rico

    My take:

    So militarily/technologically it had somewhat immediate unintended consequences for the American military and Saddam Hussein.

    Goes further, IMHO. That’s how possible future wars with lesser opponents will look like. Iran, for example.
    1999 Kosovo War was a test and it’s a blueprint now.

    The crux of the matter, all sides here are somewhat carefully avoiding, is related to this, though:

    It highlighted the effectiveness of American air-power and precision guided munitions.

    “Serb side” keeps saying “it wasn’t effective against our military”.
    “NATO side” keeps saying “you lost the war”.

    The quote describes the reality:

    NATO switched to wide-scale infrastructure destruction to destroy the will to fight.

    The crux was, is and will be: how much core infrastructure of the country under the attack can be destroyed before one party gives up?

    Attacker can’t keep the attack because of political/social reaction/pressure from abroad/inside. “We must stop destroying that county”.
    Defender simply can’t take it anymore. “Better to give up/surrender than to be pushed into Stone Age”.

    In this particular case the regime in Belgrade gave up.
    And, yes, a part of that was the belief that Russia would protects Serbian interests there.
    Had Milosevic known what’s going to happen to him maybe all that would’ve been different.

    Good you mentioned this:

    Whatever happened to Milosevic? Haven’t heard from him in a while.

    Curious. You agree with what and HOW, ultimately, happened to him?

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    , @peterAUS
    , @Kiza
  299. Kiza says:
    @FB

    You stated that you were not going to reply to my statements and I am only skimming the jargon filled swill that you write. But in one of those, a graph caught my eye. You were comparing F117 and F22 and a one non-stealth other on range and made a statement that F117 was not a bad plane. Now, although one can compare apples and oranges on color, shape even on taste, they still remain apples and oranges. F117 was a ground-attack aircraft (a bomber) and F22 is a fighter without serious bombing capability (although F117 was called by some confused journalists a “stealth-fighter”). The design criteria for bombers (even light bombers such as F117) and fighters are totally different and thus comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges. On range, for example a bomber is supposed to have longer, if not much longer, range than a fighter. Unfortunately, stealth badly trades-off both the weapons carriage and range for stealth.

    Therefore, F117 was more a working proof-of-concept, for show and for the further contract bidding that the Skunk Works from Lockheed developed then an especially good plane (mediocre at best). It belonged to that small bomber niche, that the German Stuka dive bomber inhabited during WW2 for example. A blurred niche because some fighters these days are fighter-bombers, that is light bombers as well.

    B2, F22 and F35 inherited the further development of stealth, although F117 probably would not have been retired so soon if it did not get shot-down by a third-grade Serb air-defense, together with the myth of stealth. Even more importantly, if shooting down of the stealth F117 was not pushed down the memory hole so quickly, more questions about stealth would have been asked. There was no going back on the dead-end Western wrong doctrine of stealth.

    In conclusion, who compared a bomber and a fighter on only one criterion to conclude that a bomber was a good plane? Now, this is how you put down others when you try to establish your cred – you pick on small issues and make them big, etc, etc. Big ego and a lack of character.

    You are being ignored, do not bother replying to me.

    • Replies: @FB
  300. @peterAUS

    I don’t know.

    I’ve read this recently and it sheds a lot of light on what happened in the 90s but doesn’t necessarily settle any debates or mysteries.

    Fools’ Crusade: Yugoslavia, Nato, and Western Delusions
    by Diana Johnstone

    https://www.amazon.com/Fools-Crusade-Yugoslavia-Western-Delusions/dp/158367084X/ref=sr_1_fkmr0_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1539294849&sr=8-1-fkmr0&keywords=dianna+johnstone+yugoslavia

    Milosevic and the Bosnian Serbs may not have been guilty of all the things that were presented as obvious in the 90s, but they weren’t innocent or “good” people. And Milosevic made his share of mistakes that ultimately cost him his freedom and life. His problems were of his own making. The Serbs brought all that on themselves.

    I voted twice for Bill Clinton in 1992. I committed voter fraud before it became popular. Story for another time. The big issue then was that Clinton was promising to do something about Bosnia. Of course, once he was elected he was in no big hurry and nothing happened until 1995.

    John Mearsheimer wrote an essay circa 2000 suggesting Kosovo should be partitioned since only 8% of the population pre-troubles was Serb. Serbia would get a Northern slice with a bunch of Serbian historic sites and the rest could be free to join Albania.

    As far as I know, The NATO/US interventions have stopped the violence at a cost of like 1000 civilian casualties. The Serbs and the Saker seem to still be really angry.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @peterAUS
  301. peterAUS says:
    @peterAUS

    Re

    Whatever happened to Milosevic? Haven’t heard from him in a while.

    That was, IMHO, more important and relevant today, than “Angel ’99″.

    It was the first, in post Cold War, head of state, who got that particular “treatment”.
    Technically, Sadam was first actually, but let’s not get bogged down in details.
    Then, we got Qaddafi.
    All fine and dandy………from Washington point of view, but other people were taking notes, I presume. Like: “what’s going to happen to me when I step down under US pressure?”.

    Following this train of thought, the current demon to destroy could think the same. Granted, his predecessor got a good exit, but, don’t know, if I were the demon I’d have second thoughts.

    Which brings us the current predicament.
    This demon, should he decide it’s his time, could do something we all will be sorry about. Well, Americans for around 30 minutes.
    People around here where I am for around, say….2 months?

  302. peterAUS says:
    @Johnny Rico

    I don’t know.

    Hahahahahah.aa.a……a.hah…..ahhg…………….

    Fuck…I fell from my chair….

    Whoaaaaaaaaaah…………sorry…sorry….
    Got carried away.
    My apology.

    Well, I give it to you. I really do. You ARE the true American. And, honestly, I don’t say it with any derision. It’s ….just…..I mean……you do appear to be in the “game” re military and stuff so, at least, one could assume you’d know what happened to Milosevic, and much more importantly, how.
    From his arrest, extradition, attempts to defend himself before that…ahm………what’s the word…sorry, can’t came up with anything decent.
    Anyway, he finished as it happened.

    Fine.

    I mean, Empires do that. Of all people, Balkan politician would know that. Long history and such.

    The problem was that, I’d say, PRECEDENT.
    Also fine. Who gives a shit about some third world dictator.

    The PROBLEM is the current demon (by US elite consensus). He and his team could prove not so willing to follow the pattern.
    As I said in previous post of mine, should it develop that way, you guys….30 minutes of self-reflection.
    We here a bit longer. Not necessarily more pleasant, probably.

    Just saying.

  303. peterAUS says:
    @Johnny Rico

    My apology for the previews outburst.

    Having said that, well, I do feel strongly about that issue. The issue being a head of state, after given promises from the top of US administration, is, fundamentally, betrayed and executed in prison.
    Medieval shit.
    Not even so much because of Milosevic. He was The Player and knew the game. Or at last he thought he new. He didn’t see Washington able to stoop so low.
    It’s about us. If TPTBs can do that to a head of European state what they can do to us ?

    Gets worse. My favorite issue.
    Trust.
    How the regime in Moscow can trust the regime in Washington?
    The current course can, with ease, finish with M.A.D.

    As for Balkans wars, well, if I were you I’d keep out of anything except actual fighting. From selection, through training/preparation to actual performance on a battlefield (and around it, for that matter). Say….”technical” stuff, only.
    All other topics, culture, psychology, history, politics, ethnic relationships etc. I’d leave out.
    Healthier.

  304. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Hello again PeterAUS:

    And, yes, a part of that was the belief that Russia would protects Serbian interests there.

    I can assure you that nobody in Serbia expected the Russians to help, not because they did not want Russia to help or would not have preferred for Russia to help, then because the Russian shame was there for the whole world to see: a farting drunkard directing a music band whilst the Jewish global mafia was tearing the national assets and the nation into pieces. For example, the Western presstitutes of the time were writing (overblown) stories of the Russian artillery training grounds being used for growing cabbage for the unpaid soldiers, officers and their families to survive. Therefore, there was no chance that the Russians could have helped in a substantial way and nobody had any illusions.

    Milosevic turned to fellow socialists, the Chinese instead. It turned out to be a really opportune moment, because the Chinese were growing economically and had dreams of using Serbia as a lily-pad for trade and investment expansion into Europe. But US was not prepared to allow the Chinese in, into the temporary vacuum that the withdrawal of Soviet Union created. To send a message, through the usual plausibly deniable means: oops, we used old maps (of something that was never in that location), they bombed the intelligence wing of the Chinese embassy in Belgrade, were the Chinese were collecting tactical info on NATO bombing of Serbia. They killed several Chinese intelligence agents and curtailed the Chinese plans regarding Europe, coming back again via the New Silk Road more recently.

    PS I cannot believe that you are debating with this cretin, Ricco.

    After the Chinese were hit and blooded, Serbia was left with no support at all, to the tender mercies if the humanitarian bombers preparing to start carpet bombing.

    But it would be wrong to miss to mention that the Russian Military did two things behind the drunkard’s back to try help Serbia:
    1) tried smuggling the then new S300 into Serbia; unfortunately Serbia was surrounded by the newly minted US vassals and even just the first S300 missile sent was intercepted inside a freight train carriage in Romania; also on several occasions Romania, Hungary and Ukraine turned back Russian planes trying to make deliveries to Serbia,
    2) when the Kumanovo Agreement was signed leaving Serbian jurisdiction over Kosovo intact, the Russian peace-keepers stationed in Bosnia were moved overnight onto Pristina Airport, to a complete shock of NATO which was already laughing at the Serbian stupidity to trust the Kumanovo Agreement; well apparently neither Serbians nor Russians trusted NATO’s signatures; having been made look stupid, the then NATO commander US general Wesley Clark blew his top off and ordered his 2IC British general Michael Jackson to attack those Russians (that is start WW3), an order which was refused and Clark got retired in his late 50s soon after; Putin withdrew those troops a few months later because their position was untenable.

    I mention all this because it shows that the plausibly deniable incidents instead of direct attacks have been the hallmark of the Western approach to Russia and China, the modus operandi that the professionals on both sides understand perfectly. This is why the Russian MoD did not swallow the Israeli IL20 “accident”. This will be continued, of course.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
    , @Johnny Rico
    , @L.K
  305. FB says:
    @Kiza

    Once again you prove to be a retarded wanker…and one that can’t read either…the chart is from Lockheed Martin, so they are doing the comparing…

    Notice the part that says…’LOCKHEED MARTIN PROPRIETARY INFORMATION’…

    Also the little cartoon skunk might be a clue exactly where from Lockheed it’s coming…

    You are irredeemably retarded with your constant bloviating about things you have no idea about…the original goal of ‘stealth’ aircraft was to penetrate Soviet air defenses and take them out…the F117 at least had a good low observable capability…but in practice the concept proved useless…

    The F35 hardly qualifies as a ‘fighter’ either…as its very high wing loading decreases its maneuverability to an inadequate level for a fighter aircraft…right now it is limited to 4g…something you can do in a Cessna trainer…

    And even if and when that issue is sorted out…it will have no chance to outturn a missile or an enemy fighter…it’s a flying disaster…

  306. FB says:
    @krollchem

    I generally reference the Nato bombing of Serbia in matters related to SEAD, since it was the last major such operation and proved largely unsuccessful, despite the small size of the opponent and its dated equipment…

    Bombing civilian infrastructure is standard operating procedure for the US…it has a long history, starting with the strategic bombing of Germany during WW2 [remember Dresden]…then Japan with atomic bombs…then North Korea, which was completely destroyed…

    Bombing civilian infrastructure started from day one of the Serbia campaign…electrical grid, petrochemical plants, which caused massive toxic spillage into the Danube, schools hospitals, the Chinese embassy etc…

    These crimes are never acknowledged even by academics…including those I cite such as Lambeth, who is a RAND guy…the fact that even these not quite neutral experts grudgingly admit to serious problems with the campaign only shows how badly they failed in the military sense…

    Nato was actually running out of precision munitions…they were down to 100 Tomahawks…as the other author I cited, Andrew Martin of the RAAF, points out…that kind of attrition on the Nato side is actually not sustainable…

    As for the other tactics you mentioned, yes decoys and false emitters and such are part of the air defense doctrine developed by the Russians…known as Maskirovka…

  307. Kiza says:

    My quarrel with the Russians here did not only remind me of Serbia in the 90s then also of another situation.

    When US went into Afghanistan oh so many decades ago, a few enterprising Soviet/Russian Afghan veterans who had the misfortune to end up fighting in that forsaken country, tried to sell their skills and substantial knowledge to US. Of course, the US decision makers laughed them out of their offices, figuratively. This just goes to prove that Serbs and Russians do not have a trade mark on stupidity, it is simply a prevalent human trait. Humans tend to learn the best through own pain and suffering, otherwise they BS till kingdom come. And US is the world leader in BS.

    I thought of a few good names for the stealth doctrine – no plan b doctrine, or all-eggs-in-one-basket, or put-your-house-on-one-roulette-number doctrine.

  308. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    … there was no chance that the Russians could have helped in a substantial way and nobody had any illusions.

    Maybe.

    Quick Google to refresh (it was some time ago):
    cejsh.icm.edu.pl/cejsh/element/bwmeta1.element.ojs-doi-10…/4141-5061.pdf
    Page 52 in particular, as:

    Moscow admittedly agreed that it would be a unified KFOR command and control structure, but still did not want to hand over its military personnel under NATO command and insisted on its own KFOR sector in the north of the province.

    My bold.
    That was what was agreed by Milosevic.

    Then (my bold again):

    Moscow gave up on the idea of a Russian KFOR sector, a solution expected by Belgrade and Serbs in North Kosovo.

    Granted, not much.
    Unless you are a person of (perceived) Serb ethnicity there, after NATO moved in. Open season. Medieval approach (tools and procedures).

    • Replies: @Kiza
  309. Kiza says:

    This one annoying little, egomaniacal, characterless individual with a following is a clear proof of the adage that the only choice the men are worse at then choosing their females is choosing their leaders. Over and out.

  310. Erebus says:

    “Serb side” keeps saying “it wasn’t effective against our military”.
    “NATO side” keeps saying “you lost the war”.
    The quote describes the reality:

    That “reality” you’re so fond of taught NATO a world saving lesson.

    Think beyond it. Consider the implications of the “Serb side” for other wars, against other adversaries in other theatres.

    Perhaps then you’ll understand why the first claim is a fulcrum on which much else balances, and why it was possible to save Syria. And, why NATO tiptoes at the strategic periphery throwing spitballs.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @peterAUS
  311. peterAUS says:
    @Erebus

    Think beyond it.

    No need.
    Good template.

    Consider the implications of the “Serb side” for other wars, against other adversaries in other theatres.

    You mean Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya and Syria?

    … it was possible to save Syria.

    It was.
    Before the regime in Kremlin chickened out. Again.

    Why don’t you move in that “saved” Syria and tell us how great the life there is?
    Or any of those other three.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  312. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Yes, that was a rather major let down, because this is exactly why Albanians took the whole of Kosovo, including Mitrovica (Nth Kosovo) – our US masters are better than your Russian friends. Yet, this did happen when Putin just started captaining the then sinking ship of the Russian state, the time of Kursk submarine disaster etc. Russia was just not ready yet to assist anyone.

    I have zero doubt that Russia would have come into Nth Kosovo now. This is why that traitorous woof-woof (av-av) President of Serbia went to Putin recently when the Albanians sent commandos into Mitrovica on a silly pretext. Eventually, the Albanians will have their asses kicked badly, because they are less willing to admit that their US sponsors are declining than US itself is willing to admit. They will continue behaving and provoking as if US is still the sole, unchallenged hyper-power of the World.

    Despite the fantastic maritime strategic position, I do not think that the Chinese are particularly impressed my a Muslim-drug-mafia, US-client Albanian state in the Balkans.

    Just as the US basis around Al Tanf in Syria, the US base Bondsteel in Kosovo will fade away eventually, maybe even as soon as the second Trump’s mandate.

    I am sure that you disagree with most of this.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  313. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    Before the regime in Kremlin chickened out. Again.

    peter, peter, Putin does practice Sun Tzu. Do not jump to conclusions based on a current transitory state. My beef with the Russians is not that they are doing the wrong thing, then they are doing it in a wrong away, always afraid to provoke the f’ed up beast too much and getting killed in the process. I still believe that the Russians will win in Syria, only at what cost and was it an unavoidable cost?

    If, for example, a new civil war starts in US, the 15 dead Russians will be like a minor blip in face of a major carnage. It is not that I wish for US to be f’ed up, it is objectively a totally f’ed up country.

    It is three US people who are my only current intellectual and moral heroes: PCR, Philip Giraldi and Mike Whitney, no Russians unfortunately (maybe Glazyev), the point being that I am trying to be as objective as one can be about US. But it is a super-power living on a borrowed time, heading towards being a regional power, if no internal war.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  314. Kiza says:

    Here is an interesting poll from a Russian Liberal, i.e biased, Levada pollster:

    Recent polls released by the independent Levada Center clearly show the shift in public opinion. According to the latest figures, only 17 percent of Russians believe that Putin defends Russia’s national interests. Russia’s most popular officials have experienced similar downturns. Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu’s trust rating declined from 31 percent to 19, while Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov’s dropped from 25 percent to 14.

    This is mainly due to pension changes, but also due to the military’s failure in Syria. Goes to prove that the global Jewish mafia, via Israel, picked a perfect moment to create an “accident” for the Russians. Putin bit the bait like a dumb cat fish and shot his mouth off.

  315. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    Yes, that was a rather major let down, because this is exactly why Albanians took the whole of Kosovo, including Mitrovica (Nth Kosovo).

    Pretty much.

    That’s for Kosovo thing itself.

    Back to the crux: regime in Belgrade will to keep on its course.

    I say that and not “fighting” because there wasn’t any fighting, actually, between NATO and Serb forces.
    It was an air campaign against Serbian infrastructure.

    “Intervention” failed in attempt to use Albanian insurgent force to take parts of Kosovo. It also failed to inflict any serious damage on Serb forces in Kosovo.

    Bottom line, Serbs could’ve simply waited out the bombing against their FORCES not even paying much of attention to that ragtag Albanian force.

    Targeting of infrastructure changed everything

    Serbs had no solution to that, except enduring it. Now…it’s one thing for military to endure it, quite another for civilian population.

    The “beauty” of the “Intervention” solution was in having own populace not giving a shit.
    I know that most of posters and readers here have attention span of around 15 mnutes and that is ancient history.
    Well….I was, say….watching…. all that almost 24/7 and all pros I had contacts with saw that as the game changer in international relationships, execution of armed conflict (especially against weaker opponents) and, yes, some of us even as an excellent example of censorship and perception management in West. The era of Server NT and Windows 95, dialup….yes, that technology.

    One of elements why the regime folded on Kosovo was, in essence, promised protection of top people there, Milosevic included, by Moscow. No way in hell he saw himself arrested, by own people, and delivered on a plate to Hague then. Even while he was there he couldn’t believe, I think, that “they” would go so far (or low).

    The rest is history.
    Well, at least he died of…ahm…natural causes in his cell. “Found dead in his cell after being dead for several hours. Heart attack” is the story.
    Saddam fared worse. Let’s not even talk about Qaddafi. Oh, while we are on that moment, anyone here remembers The Bitch reaction to the news? Pure Presidential class there.

    I am sure that you disagree with most of this.

    I do.
    If I were you I wouldn’t expect much help from the regime in Kremlin.

    Perhaps……..the way out is in strengthening connections with rising nationalistic movements in Europe. But then….hehe…you do have Croats next to you.
    Oh my…………

    • Replies: @Kiza
  316. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    …it is a super-power living on a borrowed time, heading towards being a regional power, if no internal war.

    Well, those are feasible options. It could get hit by meteorite too. Or that “The Day After” option. Or…….Hollywood is good in producing those.

    If believing that helps, why not? I mean, you guys survived Ottomans there, so, the latest one should be easier.

    I just have a feeling some other, say less optimistic, options are more likely.

    Here is the crux: The Empire will keep doing what’s been doing since the fall of The Wall. It will stop doing that on the day when the regime in Washington realizes the regime in Kremlin will go M.A.D.

    We just need to believe that people in White House and around them will make the right decision that day.

    They will I am sure.
    I mean, they are calm and collected, highly intelligent people, exceptionally well educated, with excellent understanding of history and…..uhm….am…..

    Anyway.

  317. @FB

    Japan was a special case and it had to be done…..the nukes had to be dropped. But perhaps you don’t think The US should have gone to war against Japan.

  318. Kiza says:
    @peterAUS

    I say that and not “fighting” because there wasn’t any fighting, actually, between NATO and Serb forces. It was an air campaign against Serbian infrastructure. “Intervention” failed in attempt to use Albanian insurgent force to take parts of Kosovo. It also failed to inflict any serious damage on Serb forces in Kosovo. Bottom line, Serbs could’ve simply waited out the bombing against their FORCES not even paying much of attention to that ragtag Albanian force. Targeting of infrastructure changed everything.

    It is interesting to me to read your thoughts about what happened, but you said yourself that it was not the infrastructure that NATO targeted then infrastructure plus civilians. I knew a Serbian woman here where I live and I told her that the Western humanitarians were planning carpet bombing of Serbia and she just went ballistic about her son living in Belgrade. It is easy to be academic about carnage such as in Yemen, but behind every such story there are hundreds or thousands of people trying to paddle out somehow and save their lives.

    One of elements why the regime folded on Kosovo was, in essence, promised protection of top people there, Milosevic included, by Moscow. No way in hell he saw himself arrested, by own people, and delivered on a plate to Hague then. Even while he was there he couldn’t believe, I think, that “they” would go so far (or low).

    This is plainly untrue. The Russians never promised anything to Milosevic, nor could they, nor to Bosnian Karadzic for that matter, it was the British who like to make promises. The British know very well people’s propensity to believe in the outcome they would like and their gullibility regarding such promises. It was also MI6 assets in Belgrade which were essential to achieving the color revolution in Serbia. The current woof-woof President of Serbia is a former MI6 asset. MI6 is the same organisation which organised a military coup in Yugoslavia in 1941, after Yugoslavia signed a pact with Hitler’s Germany, a less onerous pact than the Rambouillet Agreement that NATO demanded of Serbia. Up to two million Yugoslavs, mostly Serbs, paid with their lives for this resistance to Germany. One never needs enemies if one has the British for friends. Thus Anglo-Zionists.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  319. @Kiza

    PS I cannot believe that you are debating

    You are so dumb. You are like the dumbest troll here. There is no debating going on. I agree with most of what Peter says. I’m not going to explain this any more to you because your English comprehension is poor.

  320. peterAUS says:
    @Kiza

    ….it was not the infrastructure that NATO targeted then infrastructure plus civilians.

    Khm….ahm…well….you know…I guess it’s not so easy to empty a railway station before obliterating it. Or a river port.
    TV for example:”Dear employees, would you be so kind as to evacuate the building so we could bomb it. Please”. Same for a power plant of water plant.
    For a bridge, you feel that NATO should’ve worked with Serbian traffic police, perhaps? “Please evacuate and cordon off the Bridge One. Thank you kindly”.

    Western humanitarians were planning carpet bombing of Serbia

    They weren’t. Precision bombing only. “Carpets” for certain forces/areas in Kosovo.

    …This is plainly untrue. The Russians never promised anything to Milosevic, nor could they

    Remind us here again, please, where exactly Milosovic wife and son fled and have been living since?
    While we are waiting, 10 seconds Google:

    After her husband’s arrest, Marković went to Russia. The authorities of Serbia issued an arrest warrant for her on fraud charges which was circulated via Interpol, but the Russian authorities have so far refused to arrest her. In December 2006, nine months after her husband’s death during his trial in The Hague, a Serbian court also ordered her arrest on charges of ordering the murder of journalist Slavko Ćuruvija. Minister Vuk Drašković stated that the Ministry of Foreign Affairs would demand extradition of Marković from Russia. In 2008, a Serbian prosecutor announced that Marković might be tried in absentia
    … After the 2012 elections, a spokesperson for the winning Serbian Progressive Party said that Marković and her son were welcome to return,

    While we are on the topic, where the General Kadijevic found shelter as well?

    You need to work on your Google-fu, mate.

    As for this:

    One never needs enemies if one has the British for friends. Thus Anglo-Zionists

    Sounds as a plan. Stick to Russians and/or Chinese.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  321. peterAUS says:
    @peterAUS

    As for Russia and Milosevic, a little bit more:

    Putin :
    Director Federal Security Service, 98.
    Secretary of the Security Council, 99, moved fast into
    First Deputy Prime Minister of Russia and then, fast again, into flipping Prime Minister/President role.

    Milosevic was arrested, by own people, literally, in 2001.

    Let’s see some options:
    1. Putin didn’t know that would happen. SVR simply didn’t see it coming.
    2. SVR, with extensive sources in Serbia, saw it for sure and Putin knew about it. It was simply one of those multidimensional chess play thing.

    Either way………well……

    But, then, at least Russia and her friends learnt the lesson. So we got Saddam, literally.Hanging from the rope.
    The lesson was le-learnt and solutions implemented. As in Ukraine, for example. The latest assassination there, for example.

    But, no prob. We mere mortals simply can’t get it.
    All good.

  322. L.K says:
    @Kiza

    Kiza to Hasbara Troll peterAUS

    PS I cannot believe that you are debating with this cretin, Ricco.

    Well, Kiza, I could say the same about you debating this sh*tbag, peterAus.

    The guy is just a troll; zero intellectual honesty, zero character… I mean ZERO.

    For instance, this piece of filth was trolling a Giraldi piece a while ago that covered the I’d’F shooting down dozens of unarmed Palestinian protesters out of Gaza.

    PeterAus entire trolling act was about justifying what was done by the ‘israelis’.

    Next to peterAus, even Fart Blossom(FB) looks honest in comparison.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  323. Krollchem says:
    @FB

    “Bombing civilian infrastructure started from day one of the Serbia campaign”

    Thanks for the correction!

  324. Kiza says:
    @L.K

    There is nothing wrong about an occasional civilised discussion with your enemies, remember the Christmas Truce in WW1? I had such discussions even with Wizard of Oz and would have them with Farth Blossom as well if he were capable of civilised discourse.

  325. What we think of as “International Law” is things like the Nuremberg Principles. That the “supreme war crime” is the act of a state attacking another sovereign state. But of course, those were made up specially for the Germans by a group of American and British lawyers serving in the allied forces, dominated by Jews. They made up some “laws” and then applied them to the Germans, ex post facto, which is a violation of every principle of law.
    Never mind, also, that it was a kangaroo court and the standard of evidence led was appalling and the accused were not allowed a proper defence. As the legal foundation of the Germany that we know today, it’s a very questionable foundation. Europeans would do well to question it.

    But of course, there was never any intention of applying the same rules to “the good guys” and America has spent the next 73 years attacking other states at will and has never been held to account for that.

    As long as war criminals like Tony Blair and George W. Bush and not held to account, we can safely say that International Law is just a nice idea.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  326. peterAUS says:
    @RedBaron07

    As long as war criminals like Tony Blair and George W. Bush and not held to account, we can safely say that International Law is just a nice idea.

    Any particular reason Bill Clinton isn’t on the list?

  327. U.S. Defense contractors do not want Israel to use their F35 against the S300 because if as much as one F35 is shot down by these out dated systems, it could end up costing American jobs and profits from cancellations of the orders.
    Look at the F22, only 50% are combat ready due to high maintenance. It costs twice as much per flight hour to run a F22 as opposed to a F15,F16, and F18. The F22 has never been in a real air battle, so here again the Defense Contractors have their concerns.
    These fancy new toys are suppose to do wonders, but if they don’t a lot of jobs will be lost.
    In WWII, the Germans believed, like the current DOD, that complex, high maintenance technology would win the day over numbers. The Germans lost. Let us not make the same mistake.

  328. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kiza

    ” the radio signal power drops at the fourth power of distance 1/d^4″

    That’s not true even for isotropic radiators.

  329. EvilLib says:
    @Quartermaster

    I thought the Serbs decoyed them down with radar emitters?

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