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Yesterday (Sept 19th), I tried to post a short commentary suggesting that before we jump to conclusions about anything, we ought to wait for the fact to come out. But to no avail. The chorus of “Putin is a doormat!!”, “bomb Israel!!” and similar inanities is carrying on, louder than ever. Reading that crazy nonsense, I wanted to toss in a slogan, something like “Jew-haters and Putin-haters – unite!”. But then I realized that it would be futile because they have already united…

My friend Andrei Martyanov has tried to bring some logic and sanity into this pandemonium which I posted here (in spite of not normally doing reposts). Well, at the risk of being called a “gatekeeper” or a “cryto-Zionist”, I have decided to also try once more to bring this discussion into the realm of sanity, facts and logic.

First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question:

Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?

Seriously, I mean it. Unless you belong to the type of folks who believe that the Israelis are exceptionally crafty, smart and quasi infallible (there are such folks amongst both Jew-lovers and, more surprisingly, Jew-haters), this is a legitimate question, no?

What do we know for sure as of right now (Sept 20th)? We know that the Israelis did not give enough warning time to the Russians, which is in direct violation of an agreement between Israel and Russia. Do we know that they did it deliberately? No, we don’t. We really don’t.

Anybody with any military experience will tell you that what is known in the USA as FUBAR, SNAFU

and “cluster****” is something all militaries do on a daily basis. Furthermore, the Israelis have had terrible screw-ups many, many times. Just a summary of all the screw-ups of the famous (and much over-rated) Mossad would take pages and include many outright embarrassing incidents (for a good laugh, just look at the inept Israeli attempt at assassinating Khaled Meshal!). So why is everybody assuming that the Israelis carefully planned the whole thing?

Next, let’s assume that this is simply the typical case of Israeli arrogance (not a myth!) and that they decided to inform the Russians as late as possible. Does that at all entail that the maneuver of the Israeli F-16s pilots to seek cover from the S-200 missile was something they had planned in advance? Does anybody bother to look at the actual (as opposed to Hollywood) record of the Israeli Air Force during past wars when they were actually challenged by a reasonably capable air defense? There is a detailed discussion (in Russian) about this here which can be summarized like this: as soon as the Israelis start losing aircraft their martial prowess rapidly vanishes. Now please recall this: the Israelis have had recent losses, some admitted, some denied, but there is no doubt that they are tense and very concerned. Bottom line: I would fully expect the Israeli pilots to freak out and seek cover as soon as they are told by their warning system that they are being painted by a radar in tracking mode (the S-200 has a semi-active radar homing guidance system). If that is the case, and I am not saying that this is the only possibility, then the fault is of the Israeli pilots, not of their commanders or the Israeli state as a hole. Yes, the command responsibility is the one of the state, but not the guilt for having engaged in such an evasive maneuver (besides, knowing the price placed by Israeli on goyim lives, this would be just so typical, would it not…)

At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20? They sure ain’t gonna frighten the Russians (Russian military don’t scare easy) and the Il-20 will be replaced. Scaring the Iranians or Hezbollah? Forget it – not happening. Maybe there was a real lucrative target that they destroyed? Yes, maybe, be so far we don’t know anything about this. So what would be the point?

Then the “sister question”: what would the Israelis risk by deliberately shooting down a Russian EW aircraft? Well, in theory, they would risk having their aircraft shot down and their airbases engaged with Russian missiles. That is highly unlikely, I will admit, and the Israelis probably understand the Russians very well (many of them being from Russia). But could they be sure that the local commanders would not order an immediate retaliation (as their current rules of engagement do authorize them to!)? Let me remind everybody that this Spring, the USA was not so sure at all, and following the words of the Russian ambassador that “not only missiles but their launchers would be destroyed” the USN and Air Force decided to shoot as little as possible and from as far as possible. As for the British sub, its captain decided to cancel the planned missile strike entirely (they were being shadowed by two Russian subs). Seems to me that the potential risks of that kind of operation would be pretty high, while the potential rewards rather unclear.

Those who insist that this was a deliberate Israeli act need to come up with a halfway credible explanation not only for how this was done, but also why this was done.

Now, like many others, I despise the Israeli racist, genocidal rogue state with all my heart. But that does not prevent me from being capable of imagining a scenario in which the Israelis simply screwed-up. Believe it or not, but my disgust for Zionist ideology does not at all entail a boundless belief in some Israeli infallibility.

ORDER IT NOW

Finally, let look at this: today (Sept 20th) an IDF delegation led by Air Force Commander Maj.-Gen. Amikam Norkin is in Moscow. Also participating in the trip are the Head of the Foreign Relations Division, Brig.-Gen. Erez Meisel and other officers from the Intelligence, Air Force and Operations Divisions. Does anybody believe that all these officers went to Moscow just to thumb their noses at the Russians? Or maybe they all traveled to Moscow to present some totally non-credible excuses which will only infuriate the Russians further?

My guess is that they have something exculpatory (at least in part) to show.

Putin-haters and Jew-haters (united, of course!) will immediately declare that the Israelis went to Moscow to pressure Putin into not giving in into the (very real) public outrage and calls for retaliatory measures. To this I will very simply reply: rest assured that there is a very powerful pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia which is already putting the maximal amount of pressure on the Kremlin and there is no need at all to send top IDF officials to do that (especially on Yom Kippur!).

This is probably due to my messy writing style, but very often when I say “A” some folks clearly hear “B” (or even “non-A”!), so with them in mind, I will be very very clear and spell it out: I am not saying that the Israelis did not deliberately shoot down the Il-20 and I am not saying that the Israelis are not responsible for the resulting loss of life and equipment.

What I am saying is that Putin, in contrast to the hordes of self-appointed armchair strategists, does have to look at all the possible options before deciding what to do next. Because even if we assume that the Israelis are irresponsible, arrogant, evil and reckless (which they are), this is not a reason for the Russians to emulate them or start a war.

If the Russians conclude that the Israelis did it deliberately, I will support a strike on Israeli air bases. If the Russians conclude that the Israelis cannot be trusted to abide by any agreements (which I think is indisputable), then I think that the Russians should declare an air exclusion zone over the Russian forces (a 100km radius or so). I also think that it is high time to keep a pair MiG-31BMs on 24/7 combat air patrol high over Syria (they can come quite close to replacing a much more expensive and vulnerable A-50U AWACS).

At this time (Sept 20th 20:37 GMT) all they have announced is that “both sides emphasized the importance of the states’ interests and the continued implementation of the deconfliction system”. If that is all that the Russians decide, then I will find it wholly inadequate and I will predict a further surge in frustration against not only the government, but against Putin himself. But, for the time being, we need to wait and see what the Russian investigation will reveal. Only then can we begin cheering Putin or calling him names.

There is also this possibility: the Russians would decide on an air exclusion zone and tell the Israelis, but both sides would decide to keep this secret in order for Israel to save face (because if the Russians declare an air exclusion zone, this will create a safe heaven for Hezbollah and all the other militias which would be a political disaster for Bibi Netanyahu). So we might never find out.

Finally, I want to add one more thing which is rarely, if ever, mentioned.

The S-200 is a pretty old air defense system. We also know that it does not have a Russian IFF. However, the Russians have declared several times that the Russian air defense network and the Syrian one were integrated. This is what best explains, at least in part, the very high number of US cruise missiles intercepted in April. The problem is that the way the S-200 (and most modern air defense systems) works is that the S-200 is fully integrated into a larger air defense network administered by automated air defense management systems which is operated by a higher echelon air defense command. This means that the Syrian air defense crew did not simply detect the incoming missiles and fire off one of their own. At the very least, this decision was taken by a higher echelon Syrian air defense command. Now we know that the time was extremely short and, hence, the Russian air defense personnel might not have had the time to take protective action, especially not when dealing with a large, slow and vulnerable moving EW aircraft (the fact that this aircraft flew un-escorted is definitely a Russian mistake!). Still, we know that the Russians have many early warning capabilities which the Syrians do not have (AWACS, space based, shipborne radars, over-the-horizon radars, etc.) and there is a pretty decent chance that somebody could have done something to prevent what happened. True, since the Israelis and Russians had an agreement, the Russians therefore classified the Israelis as “non-threat”, but it does not take a genius to understand that four Israeli F-16 flying towards the Latakia Governorate are up to no good and that this warrants immediately going on full alert.

So this might be the reason why Putin spoke of “tragic circumstances”: there might be more blame to pass around than just piling it all up on the just the Israelis. By the way, even if true, none of this would in any way exculpate the Israelis for the very simple reason that had the Israelis warned the Russians on time this entire tragedy might have been avoided even if the prime culprits are cowardly Israeli pilots, less than competent Syrian air defense crews or too trusting Russians. By “warning” the Russians just 1 minute before the attack the Israelis created an environment in which such a tragedy simply had to happen. This is why I think that no matter what the Russian investigation find, anything short of an air exclusion zone over the Russian forces would constitute an inadequate response: the fundamental Israeli responsibility is already established. But what is still missing are the (important) details.

One more thing in conclusion: the last time the Russians made a deal with the Israelis, it worked remarkably well, let’s not forget that. The Syrian forces re-took control of their southern border without the Israelis doing anything meaningful to stop them. Let also remember that at the beginning of this war the usual chorus of Putin-haters was already screaming that “Putin disarmed and betrayed Syria!!” when the Russians removed the (useless) chemical weapons from Syria (thereby stopping an imminent US attack). When the Russians then proceeded to single-handedly save Syria from the “good” and “bad” terrorists, those who were screaming about betrayal remained silent and never admitted that they were wrong.

The truth is that no matter what Putin does, we can expect the chorus of Putin-haters to bellow at the top of their lungs “Putin betrayed X” (replace “X” with whatever you want). Yes, they are stupid and tedious, and nothing will stop them (I also suspect that a lot of that nonsense is machine generated, at least judging by the kind of repetitive crap the moderators constantly intercept on my blog). But for the rest of us, we need to remain critical of both Putin and Russian policies, but we need to do so by logically processing well-established facts, not by just waiting for whatever pretext to resume the usual mantra.

 

UPDATE: I have listened with great interest to the MoD briefing this morning and it rather obvious that the Israelis offered no convincing explanations to the Russians who spoke of “criminal negligence“, “misleading Israel information” and that “the blame for the Russian Il-20 aircraft tragedy lies entirely with the Israeli Air Force“. The Russian military has concluded that the Israeli actions were “a clear violation of the 2015 Russian-Israeli agreements” and that “the military leadership of Israel either has no appreciation for the level of relations with Russia, or has no control over individual commands or commanding officers who understood that their actions would lead to tragedy“. There is nothing at all in the MoD briefing which would in any way excuse the Israelis and, even more importantly, nothing which could leave any excuse for Putin not to take meaningful action in response. And, just to make things worse, the Israelis have not only denied any wrongdoing or mistakes, but have even added that they won’t change their policies in Syria (these guys always double-down).

In summary, we have a typical case of gross incompetence by the Israelis, followed by their usual chutzpah when caught. It will be very interesting and very telling to see what kind of measures Putin will order next. Personally, I can only repeated that in my opinion: that, as a bare minimum, Russia ought to declare an air exclusion zone of about 100km around her forces in Syria and declare that any Israeli aircraft entering that zone, or firing a missile into it, will be immediately shot down. Russia also should increase the number of Su-30SM/Su-35S in Khmeimim and place a pair of MiG-31BM (possibly based in Iran) on 24/7 combat air patrol high over Syria. If Putin fails to act this time, this will be the most damning evidence of the power of the pro-Zionist 5th column in Russia. We shall soon find out.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel, Russia, Syria 
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  1. Kiza says:

    This is terribly empty ramble and it is time to stop reading this rambler. But before I stop I will quote myself:

    My critique of Putin is not that he did not kill back the Turks, the US military and the Israelis, it is that he keeps making agreements with the non-agreement capable sponsors of terrorism and then entrusts the lives of his soldiers to such agreements.

    In other words, the four Israeli planes should have never been tagged “friendlies”, which was obviously the Putin’s standing order to the Russian military based on his agreement with these sponsors of terrorism. The rest in this tragic event for Russia is what usually happens in war – fear, huge and costly mistakes, and incompetence all around.

    Saker, I hope you and Martyanov both, as a reward for your insightful writing about the panicking Israeli pilots, get to read your recent articles to the 10-year old daughter of one of the Russian officers killed.

    You two are the Marshals of all the Armchair Generals that you laugh at. With “intellectuals” such as you, now I understand why the Russian always die in wars like cattle and win wars by sacrificing the most/only valuable human capital (why do they call such ‘a Pyrrhic victory’ when it should be called ‘a Russian victory’). I will be watching the Russian Mayday parades with photos of killed relatives in a totally different light from now on – those people in the photos are the victims of the Russian “elite” and the self-declared Russian Armchair Marshals.

    The unfortunate Syrians are the beggars, so they cannot be choosers who their “friends” are.

    • Agree: Moi
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  2. yurivku says:

    I wanted to toss in a slogan, something like “Jew-haters and Putin-haters – unite!”. But then I realized that it would be futile because they have already united…

    I would better say “Putin-admirers and Jew-admirers already have united”.
    Putin lost this little credit of trust which he’s got after Crimea. And this is a big problem for all.

    Saker and Martyanov have lost mine credit of trust too. Now they sound just like MSM of ours.

    • Agree: Kiza, Moi, Jeffery Cohen
    • Replies: @Moi
    , @padre
    , @NATO Blues
  3. J says: • Website

    Since the Russians largely control the Syrian antiair defenses, one could also conclude that they share the responsibility in downing their own aircraft. Maybe the Israelis overestimated Russian readiness and response capabilities. In Tzahal, one minute is a lot of time. As Putin said, it was a tragic fuckup.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Moi
  4. “I tried to post a short commentary suggesting that before we jump to conclusions about anything, we ought to wait for the fact to come out.”

    Well Putin didn’t waste anytime jumping to the conclusion that it was an “accident,” right? I blame him for being too quick to say that.

    And I blame him for allowing the Israeli attacks to continue for so long. Something bad (for Russia) was bound to happen eventually. And they’re war crimes, aren’t they? It would’ve been okay with everybody if it was a Syrian plane that went down?

    “So why is everybody assuming that the Israelis carefully planned the whole thing?”

    King David Hotel, USS Liberty, 9/11, etc.

    “First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question: Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?”

    When someone “screws up” during the commission of a crime, a crime “evincing a depraved indifference to human life” and someone dies because of it, it’s known in Western jurisprudence as a “depraved heart murder” not an “accident.”

    http://www.duhaime.org/LegalDictionary/D/DepravedHeartMurder.aspx

    “At this point, I need to ask another question: what would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20?”

    You could also ask for example: what did they gain by running over Rachel Corrie with a bulldozer? And the answer would be the same IMO: They do what they do because they’re evil.

    • Agree: Miggle, mark green
  5. hunor says:

    Mr. you are a very naïve person. One doesn’t have to be a
    Putin or Jew hater to see with clarity. In fact we the gojims are the ones
    who is in our face is being hated, and planed to be destroyed. They declaring
    a new world order. The very word of new implies a departure from what we
    have today, a culture of nation states. The very word of order implies Dictatorial slavery.
    According to Assange , we are the last generation of free people.
    The western countries being overrun by primitives who are the biological
    weapons of the elites, one economical crises and everybody is against everybody,
    until only the well protected elites remain. The murder of a highly trained
    Russian military persons were premeditated planed murder. In earlier
    analysis of yours you called this form of warfare ” leapfrogging ” . And the
    hollywooding of the Izraeli leadersip, is a part of deceiveing the gojim.
    The did what they do best they draw blood of the gojim, and getting away
    with it again with an explanation, playing on our fears of not to escalating further.
    Putin calling it an accident, he remind me of an other historic figure
    who’s name was Marshall Emanuel Grouchy. He was Napoleon’s trusted general
    in 1815 at waterloo , when he heard the battle drums he started to march with his
    units to the opposite direction away from the warzone, so the French army was slathered.
    What does it count if they are the best and bravest and have a best missile systems,
    if they are being mislead and betrayed? Try to analyzing that.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  6. What’s funny is that The Saker wants to stick to the “facts” but all he gives is, when you read his article closely is apologizing for the failure of Russian policy with regards to the Israelis, a mix of contradictions, Putin-ifallibility and the usual “Russia good, rest meh”

  7. Bill65 says:

    Can The Saker tell us what right Israel has to bomb targets in Syria ? The Russians were invited in to save Syria as were the Iranians and Hezbollah but Israel is on the side of the attackers of Syria .

    • Replies: @anon
    , @J
    , @Colin Wright
  8. You are absolutely correct.
    USA responded in similar fashion when Israel sunk “Liberty” with greater loss of american lives.
    Most of Israeli population are God’s chosen people and can do no wrong.
    God placed them on Earth to watch over us and even gave us his son to civilize us.
    Praise the Lord!

    • Replies: @in the middle
    , @pyrrhus
  9. “What would the Israelis gain from shooting down the Il-20?”
    …The same exact thing they gained from destroying the USS Liberty. It is obvious the Mossad is paranoid and do not like having giant intel-platforms near their country… It could expose their devious globalist-conquest and hatred of European nations.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  10. Realist says:

    The chorus of “Putin is a doormat!!”, “bomb Israel!!” and similar inanities is carrying on, louder than ever.

    I have not heard anyone of stature suggest “bomb Israel!!”. What the nutless Putin should do is support Assad in declaring a Syria wide ‘no fly zone’ with the destruction of all aircraft that disobey….I mean all.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    , @annamaria
  11. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    I think Harold Smith said it best on the other thread:

    “Was it just a coincidence that the IL-20 happened to be where they needed it to be at the right moment? Or to put it another way, what would they have done if it wasn’t there? According to your theory the aggressors were going to sacrifice themselves to Syrian air defense missiles for a meaningless attack?”

    OK, us armchair Generals figured that little tactic out in a minute. Does one seriously think that in the event, it all happened that way by mistake?

  12. First, let me start by a very simple and primitive question:

    Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?

    ‘Careless’ is the word I would use. Israelis are being careless, because they never have to pay a price for their aggressions and their mistakes. Putin encourages this carelessness, when he refuses to impose costs on Israel. The lesson Israelis are learning from this incident is that Russia is weak, and Putin has “little choice”, but allow Israelis free hand in Syria. This is what Israelis newspapers are saying, check this out:

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @chris
    , @tyrone
  13. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Realist

    How about something as simple as not declaring a no fly zone, shooting down a few planes that are attacking, violating international law, and likely committing war crimes, and just letting them figure out on their own that, that is probably a bad idea.

    • Replies: @Realist
  14. Realist says:
    @The Scalpel

    OK a little more ‘in their face’, but OK

  15. Well, at the risk of being called a “gatekeeper” or a “cryto-Zionist”,

    LOL, I already have been called a “defender of Israel”. I guess I need to write, fast at that, the course of tactics and strategy for indignant all-knowing public and this could be easily accomplished since such a text book will have 2, maximum, 3 pages.

  16. @Kiza

    You two are the Marshals of all the Armchair Generals that you laugh at

    It is not true, I always emphasize that I am just rank and file “armchair strategist”. Getting to the rank of Armchair Marshal would be dreamy.

    Saker, I hope you and Martyanov both, as a reward for your insightful writing about the panicking Israeli pilots, get to read your recent articles to the 10-year old daughter of one of the Russian officers killed.

    Actually, I dealt with the death, including of my service friends, and I dealt with the parents of my personnel.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  17. @hunor

    One doesn’t have to be a Putin or Jew hater to see with clarity

    So, you do then, I assume, have now or had in the past Form 1A clearance to know how and what Tactical and Operational Manuals describe in terms of setting Air Defense systems, establishment of communications networks…ah, never mind–I am sure “Jews The Almighty” bible of yours gives all necessary answers. Including describing issues of angular separation of targets, principles of development of command decisions from tactical to operational level and other irrelevant crap.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @in the middle
  18. @J

    In Tzahal, one minute is a lot of time.

    No, this can not be true!!! I always knew that Tzahal operates on millisecond increments. In fact, it can also travel back in time. You know, because they are that good.

    • Replies: @J
  19. “none of this would in any way exculpate the Israelis for the very simple reason that had the Israelis warned the Russians on time this entire tragedy might have been avoided even if the prime culprits are cowardly Israeli pilots, less than competent Syrian air defense crews or too trusting Russians. ”

    No, none of this would have happened if Putin had refused to allow his bosom buddy Nazinyahu to bomb his ally, Syria, with impunity. Russia is being treated with contempt by the zionazi pseudostate for the simple reason that the Zios were bombing a “target” right next to the Russian Hmeimim airbase.

    Nor is the loss of the Il 20 something minor. It was a very expensive, highly capable system manned by extremely well trained, hard to replace, valuable crew, each of whom had many years of irreplaceable experience. Do *not* attempt to whitewash that.

    The Saker needs to stop defending the zionazi stooge and capitalist roader Putin. His “restraint” is making Russia look like a pushover and emboldening its enemies. What is the Amerikastani aircraft carrier Harry Truman doing in the Mediterranean right now, a health cruise?

  20. There is absolutely nothing stopping Putin from ordering his bosom buddy Nazinyahu to immediately stop all bombing of Syria, on the pain of having his zionazi war criminals being shot out of the air. What exactly is preventing Putin from doing this, assuming that the S400 actually works as advertised? Can any of the professional Putinite propaganda purveyors, as despicable a breed as the Trumpets, Obamopologists, and Hillarybots, explain?

  21. Kiza says:
    @Felix Keverich

    It is definitely worth reading not only the quoted article but other commentaries, because the inventors of shutzpah are now collectively dancing on the graves of the 15 Russian officers. Just as they placed sofas to watch the destruction of Gaza. Thank you for the link Felix.

    Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov, at the level of the IDF delegations sent to Moscow, to ensure that the Russian military does not get any “reserved” ideas (reserve the right to … huff & puff).

    Here is my favorite piece from this Jewish BS machine above:

    unconfirmed sources from Syria have reported that Russian military police abducted and are brutally interrogating officers and soldiers from the Syrian air-defense battery that fired the fateful missile

    But, but I naively thought that the Russians discovered a secret link which proves that those now brutally interrogated Syrians did 911, not the Iraqis accused before.

    I do understand that Putin does not have any good option now and that his premature and dumb commentary about the “accident” was for his own ass-covering not to protect those Jews who made such a total ass of him. But whenever the Russians die, as when the SU-24 pilot died, he learned nothing and continues on making and trusting the deals with the sponsors of terrorism.

    Finally, I do note that the smart people, such as Israel Shamir, keep their mouths shut for now, till the fog clears and the emotions blow-over. I am looking forward to his next article to understand the feelings in the Russian military regarding Putin.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  22. A few points:

    The Israelis would know the location and habits of the Il-20. Israeli fighter jets flying near it while engaged in hostile action would inescapably and intentionally greatly increase the risk to the Il-20. The last minute ‘warning’ given by the Israelis was no real warning at all, but an insulting betrayal, comparable to a ‘friend’ informing you that a snipers bullet has just been fired at you. Wasn’t that nice. I warned you.

    This particular attack by Israel was unusual in that it involved Russian military proximity. Thus there was an increased element of WTF for the defenders.

    The reported British jets and French naval ‘on cue’ activity increased the situations complexity for the Russians and Syrians.

    The standing of the Jewish and globalist fifth column in Russia has taken a hit.

    This latest attack by Israel on Syria, as usual technically a war crime, but this time involving deceit leading to the destruction of the Il-20, has given Russia both rationale and impetus, as well as general public support, for a potential wide array of new measures, both pertaining to Syria, and the larger ongoing struggle to strengthen Russia.

    • Replies: @Miro23
    , @Jeff Davis
  23. nsa says:

    What baffles genii like the Saker and his fanboy Martyanov about the murder of the Il-20 and the USS Liberty crews could easily be explained to them by a moderately bright child of ten with a knowledge of Aesop. Try rereading “The Farmer and the Viper” or it’s more modern version “The Scorpion and the Frog”.

    • Replies: @Allan
  24. @Kiza

    Much better reading Harretz than the awe of our two Armchair Marshals, Saker and Martyanov

    Do you want me to prove, using you as an example, for all other present here hysterical non-men, that none of you have any idea of what was and is going on by me merely introducing a simple tactical-technical parameter which defines tactical reality in any radar systems. I’ll give you hint–it is reported to all military radar operating units (from ground to the sea) and is logged and accounted for (with proper adjustments in procedures) every single day, sometimes on 12 hour increments. This factor could be of prime importance, especially against the background of old S-200 AD complex. Are you game? Then we will compare who are real “armchair strategists” here.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    , @FB
  25. yurivku says:

    I am looking forward to his next article to understand the feelings in the Russian military regarding Putin.

    You think he knows? I pretend to know being Russian and former Soviet officer – our feeling are far from those of Saker and Martyanov. They (feelings) are much closer to PCR’s words, but actually main words which are to be said are not allowed here.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @Kiza
  26. I wonder why this Martyanov, with all that supposed military background, lives now in the US for starters….The same happens to me with The Saker….but we already know that he lives there because of his children….

  27. @Andrei Martyanov

    This is some irrelevant technical mumbo-jumbo. Kiza was making a comment about political side of the issue:

    Israelis have no respect for Russia and Putin. They feel emboldened by Putin’s weak reaction.

    • Agree: yurivku
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  28. c matt says:

    Putin has shown, time and again, that on the world stage he seems to be the only adult. As the adult, he needs to set firm boundaries for the infantiles. One fact is clear, right now – none of this would have happened had the Israeli jets not committed their criminal attacks. Accident or intentional, to prevent future mishaps (or intended haps) the only reasonable solution is to prohibit any further hostile aircraft free reign. Now, whether Russia is capable of enforcing this, I have no idea. Perhaps at least over the current Idlib area.

    Don’t forget the US is looking for any excuse to up involvement – should Syrians or Russians breathe too quickly, that will be declared a war crime and basis to launch a full attack!

  29. Thishiding-behind story ssounds odd. Israeli ECM can’t handle S-200s, which they knew were there? I thought, subject to correction, that the S200 would have a mechanically scanned radar, being quite old, and therefore subject to range-gate pull-off and side-lobe pentration and all that standard ECM stuff. Would not the Israelis know well the charactersitics of AA sysstems they were flying against? But maybe not.

    What is the geomatry of this story? The radar shadow of the Russian plane would be a cone whose width at a given distance would be a function of the Russians’ proximity to the radar and the Israelis’ distance from the Russian plane on the far side. Since F16s are not helicopters, to stay in the shadow they would have to fly on a line connecting the radar and the Russian plane—that is, directly toward it or away from it. So the Israelis notice that they are being tracked, instantly decide that they will hide behind the Russian plane, and do the naneuvering necessaray to….It all sounds like a pure Syrian IFF fuck-up, not an Israeli conjob.

  30. @yurivku

    I pretend to know being Russian and former Soviet officer – our feeling are far from those of Saker and Martyanov. They (feelings) are much closer to PCR’s words, but actually main words which are to be said are not allowed here.

    Our feelings, whose? Yuri, aren’t you a graduate of MVTU (as it used to be known, today MGTU)? I remember you mentioned something about studying issues of Air Defense. So are you Pidzhak? But even so, you surely must know how the issue of RLP (Radiolokatsionnaya Pronitsaemost’, Radar wave Permeability) and of radio refraction , which have everything to do with attenuation and the range of detection which are provided to tactical units in a form of a daily, or seasonal (as in 12 hour increments), RLP coefficients? No, never encountered that? Well, I did, many times because this defined how the sectors of surface situation has been observed. It is especially true for old radar systems with very limited signal processing capabilities. The difference could be dramatic and will influence greatly the timing of decisions, be that reaction to detection or decision on launch. And this is just one of many factors which are being considered right now. But, obviously, these are not issues which interest most local hysterical, know-it-all office plankton, who, unlike me, who goes openly under my own name and biography state my opinions, hide behind monikers and are good only at masturbating at the possibility of Russia punishing Israel. And punishing she will.

    But here comes the question then: as much as Israel, undeniably, guilty of what had happened, aren’t there very real issues with Syria’s AD? If you studied in MGTU on the faculties with “dopusk” (clearance) you surely should have been, at least briefly, taught Arab record with modern (for a time) AD systems. I omit here their overall military experience with modern combat in general. But for others, who read this–I might remind them about this:

    A U.S. Patriot missile shot down a British Panavia Tornado GR.4A of No. 13 Squadron RAF, killing the pilot and navigator. Investigations showed that the Tornado’s identification friend or foe indicator had malfunctioned and hence it was not identified as a friendly aircraft.[159][160]

    U.S. Patriot missile batteries fired two missiles on a U.S. Navy F/A-18C Hornet 50 mi (80 km) from Karbala, Iraq.[166] One missile hit the aircraft of pilot Lieutenant Nathan Dennis White of VFA-195, Carrier Air Wing Five, killing him. This was the result of the missile design flaw in identifying hostile aircraft.[167]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_friendly_fire_incidents#Iraq_War_from_2003

    So, my, obviously humanly and professionally unreasonable question is this–isn’t it traditional to get all facts straight before jumping to any conclusions on general political matters, in which, of course, everyone here has great profound understanding? Nah, I am, indeed, being unreasonable. And yes, there is a Jew sitting under Putin’s bed every night whispering into his ear.

    • Replies: @hunor
    , @yurivku
  31. @Frederick V. Reed

    fly on a line connecting the radar and the Russian plane—that is, directly toward it or away from it. So the Israelis notice that they are being tracked, instantly decide that they will hide behind the Russian plane, and do the naneuvering necessaray to….It all sounds like a pure Syrian IFF fuck-up, not an Israeli conjob.

    OK. Obviously the issue of signal processing in old S-200 matters here, same as angular separation if any between targets, which in such systems is related directly to operator(s) skills. But that’s the point–the oldest trick in the book was applied to a Russian aircraft and that is what matters here. Apart, from the fact that IAF really violated a key agreement between Russia and Israel by penetrating the forbidden zone. It becomes, thus, not merely technical but political issue and consequences must follow.

    On the other hand–agree completely, Syria’s AD “operators” guilt is undeniable and it is just the matter of figuring out if it was the pressure of combat moment and the fog of war, or if there was something else involved–which is a competence of military counter-intelligence organs there.

  32. @Felix Keverich

    This is some irrelevant technical mumbo-jumbo.

    Well, then I am sure you will treat your future illnesses (God forbids you to become ill, stay healthy) at Voodoo doctors, since all this medical mumbo-jumbo is irrelevant. I heard Haiti Voodoo healthcare is great and very-very affordable.

    Kiza was making a comment about political side of the issue:

    Only few posts here are real comments, most of them is some hysterical weeping in an adrenaline deprived organisms upon understanding that Israel is not going to be destroyed immediately by Russians. Hence, your posts included, either hysterical reactions or trolling, mostly, sorry for being blunt, by people who have zero knowledge of Russia in general, and her military in particular. So, a wonderful unification of pseudo-patriots and all kinds of ignorant trolls happened. It is rather interesting to observe.

  33. @Frederick V. Reed

    .It all sounds like a pure Syrian IFF fuck-up, not an Israeli conjob.

    When Powers was shot down in his U-2 over USSR, the other downed aircraft was Soviet Aviation of PVO MiG-17 (or 19–don’t remember from the top of my head). A classic case of “friendly fire”.

  34. hunor says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Where is stalin or Zhukov Marshall with balls when you need them ? We are doomed clever talk never win any conflict not even with your wife .winning or losing is not the issue, standing up like man is. After all the opponents are not even warriors , just backstabbing merchant spirits.

  35. @c matt

    Putin has shown, time and again, that on the world stage he seems to be the only adult. As the adult, he needs to set firm boundaries for the infantiles. One fact is clear, right now – none of this would have happened had the Israeli jets not committed their criminal attacks

    True. THE Israeli issue here is IAF’s appearance in the agreement zone. Right now whole coast of Syria is closed (plus some sea areas). Israeli reaction is very telling.

    Don’t forget the US is looking for any excuse to up involvement – should Syrians or Russians breathe too quickly, that will be declared a war crime and basis to launch a full attack!

    Colonel Lang and I, in our brief exchange on the matter, agreed that Idlib’s offensive was postponed also to get Trump off the hook of the pressure to mount the attack. It is a smart decision. I don’t think that US can realistically up the involvement in Syria without getting in a direct shooting war with Russia. In fact, as even many American chauvinist “observers” noted–the US has been effectively sidelined in Syria. But this the issue for a separate topic.

  36. @Andrei Martyanov

    There is a wide range of options between “destroying Israel immediately” and doing nothing, but Putin opted to do exactly nothing.

    Insulting people (your preferred method of debating), or throwing some meaningless jargon at them cannot change the basic perception of this, so you shouldn’t be surprised that people here find you unconvincing.

    • Agree: Kiza
  37. @hunor

    Where is stalin or Zhukov Marshall with balls when you need them ?

    I don’t think their balls were separated from them when they were buried in Kremlin Wall, so I think they are with balls and no, I personally don’t need their balls. Let them rest in piece with their owners.

    • Replies: @hunor
  38. VICB3 says:

    Just getting this recent flash of insight in so it’s documented. I’m troubled by it:

    -The Truman Carrier battle group has recently entered the Mediterranean, headed towards the East.

    -It is partly symbolic inasmuch as Truman pushed for the early recognition of Israel as an independent state.

    -Israel has a history of false flag operations.

    -Israel has a fleet of quiet diesel-electric subs.

    -It has been shown that diesel electric subs have in the past easily come within striking distance of U.S. carriers.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=diesel+sub+u.s.+carrier&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-b-ab-

    -If Israel wanted to suck the United States into a shooting war in Syria, it would make sense to sink the Truman with one of it’s subs, blaming in on Russia. The United States egged on by its NeoCon contingents and in a fit of emotionalism – think 9/11 – would almost certainly react before thinking.

    -In addition, Israel would also be in the position to make a big show of rescuing any survivors, garnering praise for itself. It would also put out of most people’s minds their past history with, say, the Liberty attack in the 67 War.

    -Of course, one something like this did happen, you’d have a war. And war is a wild thing that, once turned loose, does what it wants and is out of control.

    Again, written on the fly. All comments appreciated.

    Just a thought.

    VicB3

  39. @Andrei Martyanov

    Grow up. 25% of the comments here are yours. Another 25% are from people who are completely qualified to disagree with you. Sorry for being blunt.

    And it is the Saker here who is being hysterical. This incident wasn’t part of his (your) planned, predicted narrative. It needs splainin’

  40. Antiwar7 says:
    @hunor

    It seems that “standing up like a man” would be a limiting approach for strategic issues. Otherwise, an adversary could just bait that side into anything it could get away with, both false flag and not.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  41. @Felix Keverich

    There is a wide range of options between “destroying Israel immediately” and doing nothing, but Putin opted to do exactly nothing.

    I think you need to apply for a job of Putin’s consultant on the issues of strategy. There could be, of course, some minor hiccup with your security clearance (you know all this intelligence and military secret mambo-jumbo), plus some issues with background but I am sure if to put your mind to it, this goal could be achieved.

    Insulting people (your preferred method of debating)

    Yes, I prefer to call it as I see it and if it insults someone, like them admitting (to themselves) in having no clue, then… well–too bad. For example (just one example) I openly call most neocons ignorant hacks. In fact, I insist, that this is the only method to debate them since they will not understand fundamental issues of military art and geopolitics and no reasonable debate can come out of it. In fact, I wrote the whole book on this issue. Another one is coming–somewhat related. You see the difference? I do not argue with quantum physicists, I read and listen to them because I know they are experts in their field, not me. But in modern internet world everyone becomes an “expert” and has an “opinion”–that is why this world is going to hell that fast. I am merely trying, with all my minuscule, infinitesimally small ability to influence it, to slow down or stop it from going to hell. Calling ignoramuses and unstable people what they are is a part of this routine, largely thanks to me having some expertise in related issues. Nah, don’t pay attention to it–it is Friday and I have some free time to hang around discussion threads.

  42. Antiwar7 says:
    @Felix Keverich

    That may or may not be true (“exactly nothing”). It may be something not immediately visible, or something that hasn’t happened or even been decided on yet. Interesting things developed between Russia and Turkey after the Turkish attack on the Russian plane.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  43. @Antiwar7

    It seems that “standing up like a man” would be a limiting approach for strategic issues.

    Many, not all, people here are ready to fight Israel, Zionism, USA, terrorists, ISIS etc. from their chairs, couches and monitors to the last Russian. They think they are entitled and competent to run Russian military and foreign policy, when most of them, in reality are…well, wouldn’t last a boot camp in any military academy, not to speak of academics and wouldn’t be allowed near serious military technology. This is all the result of trivialization (or Clancification) of the warfare in the West and this is the problem, a huge one.

    • Replies: @in the middle
  44. hunor says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Got it ! Both you and this ” antiwar ” commenter are one of “them”

  45. @Antiwar7

    That may or may not be true (“exactly nothing”). It may be something not immediately visible, or something that hasn’t happened or even been decided on yet.

    People simply forget 1973 and that US and USSR almost got into the actual shooting war, this is not to mention that as early as 1967 conflict a number of Project 627 SSN (K-52) and 675 SSGN (K-131) of the Soviet Navy were in the immediate readiness to attack Israel with nuclear torpedoes and missiles. It was 1967 War which initiated a creation of the 5th OPESK of the Soviet Navy–a very similar squadron (in its functions) is now, 51 years later, deployed near Syria. Many simply do not recognize a simple reality of the United States (unlike Russia) being almost completely subverted by Israel in US foreign policy and strategic thinking (or rather lack thereof) and that any actual shooting conflict with Israel, in which if it would have faced off against Russian forces alone she would have IDF and IAF simply wiped out, will mean a hysteria in US so hi-pitched, with US Congress being practically in the pockets of AIPAC and other Israeli influence groups, that many still resign in this happy delusion that any step in establishing stricter rules for Israel will have to be done in a very judicious manner. OK, putting it in a more blunt language–US is Israel’s bitch and things must be done in a manner which reduces probability of Russian-American conflict as much as possible.

    • Agree: ChuckOrloski
    • Replies: @VICB3
    , @windwaves
  46. anonymous[204] • Disclaimer says:

    Putin is a traitor and like criminal Trump is a member of the Jewish Mafia.
    Putin like Trump family is a zionist Jew who has enter Syria to collect all the cards to protect
    the zionist jewish interest and transfer more land to the zionist Jewish baby killers in occupied
    land. He like John Kerry, Al bright and other zionist closet is coming from Jewish background.
    Russia was one of the AXIS OF EVIL that transfer Palestine to the criminals and now zionist jewish Putin is doing everything to protect the Jewish Mafia’ s interest against Muslims and even the interest of Russia. Russia ALWAYS has acted against MUSLIMS’ interests for the benefit of the zionist tribe, especially Putin and Yeltzin who was also, a member of the jewish mafia.

    All have one thing in common: to kill Muslims, that’s why Putin is in Syria.
    Putin has implemented the zionist Oded Yinon, partitioning Syria.
    President Assad always has said the he NEVER ALLOWS ‘FEDERALISM’ in Syria where was a trick designed by the Jewish Mafia in Iraq, Syria and elsewhere and Putin was insisted on ‘federation’ and ‘no fly zone’ like the criminal Jewish Mafia.
    How possibly Assad can accept Turkey in Edleb and the traitor Kurds with criminal US soldiers in the north?

    The victory in Syria so far obtained by the sacrifices Syrian army and people along with Hizbullah and Iran made NOT RUSSIAN BOMBING. Putin just speed up the process by bombing and killing more Muslims. Remember that the zionist jew, putin, never gave S-300 to ‘its ally’ Syria. The same betrayal was made against Iran by zionist jewish closet putin on ORDERED MADE BY ISRAEL.

    Iran paid in full for S-300 for years, but traitor zionist putin refused to deliver and honor the AGREEMENT for YEARS. Iran had to go to international organization to fight to get few Russian backward system for years, because Putin DID NOT WANT IRAN TO HAVE CAPABILITY of defending herself against the Jewish Mafia that he is a member of the tribe. The same is true with
    Syria. Putin tried very hard to push Iran out of Syria, a country that has done much more sacrifices compare to Russia, but Assad DID NOT ACCEPT. He is a traitor.

    The first addition of Putin’s book, First Person, says Putin’s mother’s maiden name was Shalomovitch – which apparently is a Jewish name.

    https://lorddreadnought.livejournal.com/3483.html

    TRUMP, PUTIN & THE KOSHER NOSTRA
    Putin’s friend Roman Abramovich stated in a 2005 interview that Putin could obtain Israeli citizenship if he wanted as an ethnic Jew.

    https://aanirfan.blogspot.com/2018/02/trump-putin-kosher-nostra.html

    The author is either a fool or an apologist for a closet zionist. Don’t trust him.

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @ploni almoni
  47. The scalpel says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Andrei, I have never seen you blow so much smoke or work so hard to quell emotions I guess it may be justified in doing what one can to stop WWIII. Maybe there are other reasons.

    You are usually very careful to make sure that, in your writing, 2+2 = 4. This time, perhaps for the above reasons, not so much. You claim that most posts on this thread are emotional rants or trolls, yet you have spent most of your efforts trying to calm emotions and not addressing more serious flaws in the official story.

    Harold Smith rightly pointed out that the F16s did not end up behind the IL20 by mistake. This was not some joy ride by the F16s. It was a well planned intentional operation. The Israelis knew the habits and capabilities of the IL20 and made plans accordingly using cover from the IL20 as their method to penetrate within the envelope of the S200s. The 1 minute warning was a part of that plan. Any more warning would have exposed the F16s to much more danger.

    The Israelis knew a one minute warning was inadequate but gave it just for its value of plausible deniability. They probably expected the S200s to hold their fire but they had no way of being sure of that. Instead, they made an intentional plan, using the IL20 as cover and intentionally putting the IL20 at risk of shoot down in order to protect their F16s. The one minute warning was good for plausible deniability, nothing more.

    Then we see Netanyahu rushing to de-escalate. The only thing he can plausibly say to Putin is that this was intentional but done without his knowledge or permission. To claim it was a “tragic error” is a joke. Would Putin believe that? Not likely. Thus we have a whole delegation flying to Moscow to attempt to bolster that argument.

    Not that the political players give a damn about it, but Israel’s actions here are blatant violations of international law, probably war crimes, and well, just plain immoral. But it is only regular guys like me that care about stuff like that.

  48. VICB3 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Please see VicB3 Comment above.

    Thanks.

    VicB3

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  49. @VICB3

    Well, THAT’S a nasty little lightbulb that just went off in your head. Sick thing is, it’s not all that farfetched.

    Bleh, what an idea. I won’t be able to stop thinking about that possibility now.

  50. @VICB3

    -Israel has a history of false flag operations.

    She does and this latest event could have been (with high degree of probability) precipitated by Russian-Turkey-Iranian arrangement on Idlib, because isolation of Israeli-friendly (or rather openly supported by her) most radical Islamic groups will happen and that means Israel losing one of her most important pieces of strategy of keeping ME destabilized. But then again–a good proof of effectiveness of Russia’s actions in the area, isn’t it? Good ol’ classic cliche: the flak is heavy, that means we are over target.

    -Israel has a fleet of quiet diesel-electric subs.

    Yes, she does–German built.

    -It has been shown that diesel electric subs have in the past easily come within striking distance of U.S. carriers.

    True, even nukes (subs) have penetrated ASW “shield” and conducted lengthy trailing of CBGs many times.

    -If Israel wanted to suck the United States into a shooting war in Syria, it would make sense to sink the Truman with one of it’s subs, blaming in on Russia. The United States egged on by its NeoCon contingents and in a fit of emotionalism – think 9/11 – would almost certainly react before thinking.

    Ahh, not quite. Recall what happened with Kursk, the first act of the United States was to have CIA Director be on the first flight to Moscow. No, it doesn’t work like this and, I have suspicion that, however deplorable Israel’s policies are, Israel proper intelligence and military people are on the order of magnitude smarter, however deviously, and calculating than American neocons most of whom are dumb as fvcks and good only in bribery and mass-media tantrums. Reaction of Israel in all this situation is the best proof.

    -Of course, one something like this did happen, you’d have a war. And war is a wild thing that, once turned loose, does what it wants and is out of control.

    Let’s put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state. But who wants to pay such a price? Bibi knows that.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @VICB3
  51. paul2312 says:

    Saker: As the resident “Russia Expert” why are you strangely silent about the diabolical Sailsbury suspect interview last week?

    It was a major event, when most of the world went from skeptical to beleiving the UK side almost overnight.

  52. @The scalpel

    Harold Smith rightly pointed out that the F16s did not end up behind the IL20 by mistake. This was not some joy ride by the F16s. It was a well planned intentional operation. The Israelis knew the habits and capabilities of the IL20 and made plans accordingly using cover from the IL20 as their method to penetrate within the envelope of the S200s. The 1 minute warning was a part of that plan. Any more warning would have exposed the F16s to much more danger.

    Have you actually read what I wrote about this whole thing three hours after it happened? Does the term reckless mean anything to you in when actions of IAF are described? Let me quote myself for you:

    INTERMITTENT SUMMARY: So it is clear mow that IAF used the oldest trick in the book by shielding her aircraft by IL-20 which was descending for landing–so very Israeli–and then, of course, lied that it warned Russian side. Yes…one minute prior. I will return to Israel later, for now it is known that Bibi wants to speak with Putin and that Israel is engaged with Russia across a whole spectrum of diplomatic, military, what have you, activity trying to prevent what might be coming.

    http://smoothiex12.blogspot.com/2018/09/russia-loses-recce-il-20-in-syria.html

    So, do you want me now get home on Friday evening, put Bibi’s poster on the wall (I wonder where can I obtain it really fast, OK I’ll use SMART TV) and do two minute hate, or would you prefer half-an-hour hate session, or maybe you can offer some good Shaman for me to employ to send evil spirits Israel’s way? Obviously you do not see the difference between a choir of some deranged people and few of those who actually want to present all available (publicly) facts. I am not even sure how many from this thread ended up taking some calming medicine, but I am sure some were on the verge of getting apoplectic. Can I, please, outsource hate sessions and invocation of evil Israel’s name to some people who love this kind of activity (and actually come to such forums for therapy) and concentrate on this tedious work of explaining how things work technically. Because I have some really interesting news that in the end it was Syrian missile which shot down IL-20. Yes, because of IAF’s provocation, but that does not absolve others, who were supposed to do their utmost to prevent such situation. Am I in the ball park or should I leave this thread and start writing elsewhere, because obviously the only thing which most people in this particular thread are good at is to express rage and discuss “politics” and that is what is expected from me here.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    , @Harold Smith
  53. Kiza says:
    @yurivku

    Yuri, Shamir apparently has at least one good source inside the Russian intelligence. This is my deduction from the fact that he was the only one to state a few days before it happened that the Russian military was going into Syria (I did not believe him at the time). I have a friend who also had (in the past) good contacts within intelligence. After having been fed a few porkies by my friend, porkies that he himself was lead to believe, I hope that I have learned how to deal with such source of information. The point of all this is that if Shamir really has contacts in the intelligence, whatever he writes will be priceless for predicting the future, not as fact then as innuendo to be interpreted.

    The intelligence has a wider window on what is going on in the military then you have Yuri. Also, Putin and his cohort would be looking at similar intelligence. However, my main point was that Shamir is not rushing to judgement like Putin, Saker and Martyanov. If Putin kept completely silent about the Israeli action costing Russian lives, I would have kept my belief in his leadership. But in the rush to cover for his failed approach (of trusting the enemy) in Syria, he made Russia a complete laughing stock of the World.

    Perhaps the one who sent the Russian military into Syria, the hyper hostile and deceptive environment where those “targeting terrorists” actually sponsor them, on an el cheapo military intervention is the main culprit for the casualties and the current no-good-solution situation. The Westerners were predicting Afghanistan in Syria for Russia when the Russian arrived, but it is actually significantly worse because of the direct involvement in Syria of the capo dei tutti capi, the master of all terrorism – Israel.

    The real power of Israel is not in the its own cowardly and over-promoted military, the power of Israel is in the ability to get the US, UK, France, Germany and even Russia to sacrifice all the way to the nuclear holocaust of humanity. The history of A.D. era is in good part a history of goyim killing each other for the profit of the Jews and now is the crescendo with nuclear weapons.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @yurivku
    , @Rurik
  54. L.K says:

    Though not a Saker fan, I think the guy has his good moments, and I myself have defended him here from ‘team Zamerica’ shills, Zionist trolls, etc.

    This is NOT a good moment for the Saker.

    In fact, and I have noticed it before, there are times the Saker does not seem what the heck he thinks one day to the next. Compare the above piece with his previous one:

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/russia-blames-israel-for-the-shooting-down-of-her-ew-aircraft/

    It is pretty clear what took place yesterday night. Even if you don’t read Russian, the following chart released by the Russian Ministry of Defense says it all:

    Basically, 4 Israeli aircraft were sent on a bombing mission against targets near the Russian facilities in Khmeimim and Tartus (which, by itself, is both stupid and irresponsible). The Israelis *deliberately* did not warn the Russians until less than a minute before the attack took place, thus the Russians did not have the time to tell the crew of the Il-20 electronic warfare aircraft, which was on approach for a landing, to take evasive action. When the Syrian S-200 fired their missiles to intercept the incoming missiles, the Israelis F-16 used the Il-20, which has a much bigger radar cross section, to hide themselves resulting in the loss of 15 lives and one aircraft…

    It seems he is been easily swayed by his ‘friend’, the shill Martyanov.

    Martyanov’s role appears to be to always make Russia look best; whether militarily, economically, whatever… completely unreliable character.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Mike P
  55. @The scalpel

    Excellent comment.

    “Then we see Netanyahu rushing to de-escalate. The only thing he can plausibly say to Putin is that this was intentional but done without his knowledge or permission. To claim it was a ‘tragic error’ is a joke.”

    Exactly.

    I think the object of the mission was to bring the IL-20 down to make Putin look bad and damage the morale of the Russian military.

    The gamesmen probably figured there was at least a 70% (or whatever) chance that the Syrians would fire a missile (S-200), and if they didn’t it was no big deal, in that case the mission is just another routine attack, but being that there was not much of a down side, why not go for it?

  56. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I think 2 minutes of hate would be good. Please send photos, or even better, a video. :)

    I don’t think I am being at all emotional. I am trying to put the blame squarely where it belongs and with an appropriate emphasis. There are very important points to be made which the excerpt you reference does not make clear. (this is not to say you don’t agree, only that you do not make them clear) Forgive me, but I like to believe that at least some thoughtful people are interested in the facts and not the tsunami of spin and twisting of the facts that is taking place and so often does take place.

    1. It was not a mistake, not a “heat of battle” decision (more “forgivable” in the minds of most observers) that caused the F16′s to end up “behind” the IL20. That setup was the cool calculated plan all along.

    2. Before anything else, Israel’s actions were (and have been) clear violations of international law and arguably war crimes. Politically, this seems to be all but ignored. I think it should count for a lot. It establishes culpability beyond a doubt.

    3. Given the above, Israel was the proximate cause of the events and their outcome. They bear almost full responsibility for the event

    4. The S200 operators knew the F16′s were coming at them, so they had to choose between self-defense with the possibility of target error (they might have believed it was small) and self-sacrifice as well as allowing the F16′s to hit their (presumably very important) target. This is truly a “heat of battle” decision. Who can really blame them? If they had not fired, the F16′s would have hit their targets, possibly killed them, and returned home celebrating, and the s200 operators would have been blamed for not defending themselves.

    Sadly, Putin (though he may not believe it himself) is putting a public spin on this that it was all a very unfortunate combination of errors. It was not. That same thing seemed to be happening with this thread, which I humbly am trying to counter.

    Many are trying to place a significant portion of the blame on the S200 operators. That is also wrong, and it provides cover for Israel’s actions. Given points #1 and #2 above, I cannot think of any honest reason why anyone would want to do that. That is not to say that the situation does not highlight areas for improvement. It does. But, under the circumstances, one cannot blame the S200 operators much at all.

    • Replies: @J
    , @annamaria
  57. Svigor says:

    Reading that crazy nonsense, I wanted to toss in a slogan, something like “Jew-haters and Putin-haters – unite!”. But then I realized that it would be futile because they have already united…

    Lol, what a homo. C’mon, drop the “anglo-zionist empire” thing and just say “anglo empire.” You know you want to, sissy.

  58. @Andrei Martyanov

    “Can I, please, outsource hate sessions and invocation of evil Israel’s name to some people who love this kind of activity (and actually come to such forums for therapy) and concentrate on this tedious work of explaining how things work technically”

    It’s not a matter of “hate”; it’s a matter of “knowing your enemy.” If you don’t know the enemy (e.g., if you ignore the enemy’s robust history of treachery) and therefore don’t appreciate the evil he is capable of, Sun Tzu says you’re at a significant disadvantage.

    “Because I have some really interesting news that in the end it was Syrian missile which shot down IL-20.”

    Suppose I go into the First National Bank, pull out a gun and demand money. As the cashier is putting money into a bag, a cop that happened to be in the bank tries to stop me, and a shootout ensues. I shoot at the cop and miss; and then, just as the cop returns fire (shoots at me), I happen to duck out of the way, and his bullet hits a customer behind me, killing the customer.

    Is there any court in the world that would call the death of the customer in that situation an “accident”? I know in the U.S. there isn’t. And if I’m caught I’ll be charged with “felony murder”. The court will not blame the cop, even if the cop was a lousy shot; the court will blame me. If I say to the judge it’s the cop’s fault, he should’ve had better training blah blah blah, he would probably get angry and “throw the book at me.”

    ” Yes, because of IAF’s provocation, but that does not absolve others, who were supposed to do their utmost to prevent such situation.”

    In that case you could argue it’s actually Putin’s fault for not providing Syria with better (modern) equipment.

  59. tspoon says:

    The velocity of an S-200 type SAM is said to be 2500m/s, and the range 300km. That works out at just over 120s of flight time if you include that it takes time to get to that velocity. In that time the Israeli pilot/plane notices the missile, confirms that the missiles’ radar has locked on to it. All they have to do then (under somewhat stressful circumstances) is notice another, larger target, confirm the ID of the larger target, calculate whether they can actually make it to an area of safety behind that target, set their course, and then get to that area. To suggest it was all an unfortunate accident or fateful circumstance does stretch ones credulity a little. More likely is that the whereabouts of the russian plane was known, and in fact used as a means of providing the Israeli planes with an amount of ‘immunity’ as they calculated the Syrians would not launch in that direction. When they did lauch, the Israeli pilot(s) probably did exactly as they were briefed to do before taking off.
    The incident also furthers Israeli aims in that it is an obvious trigger for, shall we say, harsh words from Russia toward Syria, a possible split in their unity, and maybe in the unity of other parties to the conflict there.
    The public actions of Putin have been unusually muted, even troublingly so, but I won’t join in any chorus proclaiming his treachery and status as an ‘appeaser’. For starters, the haste with which the Israelis made their way to Moscow indicates that they know that not to be the case. Secondly, if those calling ‘appeaser’ are so historically astute, why do they not see the lack of real parallels between Germany in 1939 and the Middle East now? Israel has expansionist ambitions, that’s true. The possibility of those ambitions being realised fades by the day. Israel and their allies are in a powerful position, but not becoming more so, their power is (comparitively) on the wane. Time is on the side of the rest of those they seek to dominate, the only challenge is to see the guard changed without (further) massive bloodshed. With that in mind why would anyone join in beating the drums for a war in which neither they, nor anyone they care about most, would have to make any sacrifice? It’s troubling to see so many, whom, if they sided with Israel/US/Nato could accurately be described as Neo-cons and Warmongers. They still want to see blood (not theirs) the only difference is a different team flag.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  60. Harold Smith says:

    “Suppose I go into the First National Bank, pull out a gun and demand money. As the cashier is putting money into a bag, a cop that happened to be in the bank tries to stop me, and a shootout ensues. I shoot at the cop and miss; and then, just as the cop returns fire (shoots at me), I happen to duck out of the way, and his bullet hits a customer behind me, killing the customer.”

    This is exactly my viewpoint. Here is what I wrote elsewhere:

    “(T)he zionazis cannot claim innocence. They are in the position of bank robbers who took a hostage to use as a human shield, who cannot claim innocence if the hostage is subsequently killed by police fire directed at them. Again, Putin’s pusillanimous response is as harmful as a police commander’s in that situation who absolves the bank robbers of all blame, including for the bank robbery itself.”

  61. @Andrei Martyanov

    “When Powers was shot down in his U-2 over USSR, the other downed aircraft was Soviet Aviation of PVO MiG-17 (or 19–don’t remember from the top of my head). A classic case of “friendly fire”.”

    It was a MiG 19, and it was far from a “friendly fire” incident if you’re going to compare it to the Il 20 shooting down. The new IFF codes had not been updated owing to the May Day holiday. One day before or after, the MiG 19 would not have been shot down. Nor was Powers trying to hide his plane next to the MiG 19.

    This is nothing like the destruction of the Il 20 in any way.

  62. J says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Sir, I have heard hundreds of times the order: “I want everyone in formation in front of the tent in one minute!” Standard answer to the protests: “One minute is a lot of time!”

    • Replies: @annamaria
  63. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Scalpel

    “Or to put it another way, what would they have done if it wasn’t there?”

    excellent question that proofes Israhell planned this attack very carefully

    I think the plan was that Russia will attack the French warship that according to the Russians launched rockets at Syria and then Nato implies article 5

    luckily Russia for whatever reason didn’t take that bite

    nevertheless Putin provoked this tragedy by his weak behavior towards the Zionists the last 2 years
    will this go on forever?

  64. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @c matt

    “Don’t forget the US is looking for any excuse to up involvement – should Syrians or Russians breathe too quickly, that will be declared a war crime and basis to launch a full attack!”

    and the Syrians and Russians over there should then avoid eating garlic as that would be declared by the US as a chemical attack…..

  65. Kiza says:

    Whenever something important happens the battle quickly transfers into narratives. To remain rational we need to cut out all BS narratives, some of which are professionally produced. Therefore, I will not entertain the numerous Israeli and appologist narratives because they are not worth my time. In other words, I have no doubt that this would not have happened if the Russian leadership did the right thing. The Syrian guilt does not come into my mind at all, only the guilt of the Israelis and of the Russian leadership. It is also irrelevant if the Israelis did this on purpose or out of fear of being shot-down, as Martyanov argues. Any narratives outside of these boundaries are an obfuscation and of no interest to me.

    Why is Russia so afraid of defending itself by standing its ground in Syria? Because US, the Israeli bitch, would react? Because the Russian and the world Jewery would increase further its financial sabotage of Russia? What is the military for then? Should the Russian military tremble at the sight of a Jewish banker? The US military bombed and killed several tens of Russians because some group just approached their camp in Syria, despite the non-confliction agreement. How did the four Israeli jets get so close to the vital Russian military facility without being intercepted, warned and then shot-down? This especially because they have been tracked by S400 from the moment they took off. Why is it so difficult for some to distinguish between defending yourself and reacting? Any military payback now would be completely wrong, because a crime does not justify a crime. This is why I keep repeating that Putin made the Russian military in Syria defenceless. This is probably because he, as an honorable and law abiding person, could not comprehend the trickery of his “partners”, as PCR calls them. But did any of the really smart Putin’s advisers tell him that the Israelis would be the trickiest “partners” on the planet, followed by the Turks and then by US and then all others from the Coalition of the Friends of Syria. Those nations & leaders who sponsor the killers and the be-headers of civilians (remember the 10 year old Palestinian boy beheaded by friends of White Helmets) have zero honour and MUST NOT be expected to honour any agreement. Thus, making de-confliction agreements with Israel, Turkey and US and expecting them NOT to abuse them is naive or dumb. Ultimately, this would suggest that Putin does not understand who his enemies are and how duplicitous they are.

    Finally, I think I understand what Saker and Martyanov are doing – relying around the leader regardless of leader’s failures. But this would make sense only if all the alternatives are worse. Would Putin’s replacement be another Yeltsin or Gorbachev? Allowing the Israelis to get the Russian plane shot down was Putin’s Gorbachev moment, and saying that this was an “accident” was Putin’s Yeltsin moment, so how can the replacement be much worse? Martyanov and I discussed before that Putin has done many, many good things for Russia but that he has exceeded his expiry date. I do not have sufficient information to understand what (horror) could come after Putin.

  66. Now i read yesterday that the Russian have enforced i no fly zone around
    Syria, and all aircraft must fly above 19,000 ft around Syria, anything below will be deemed a threat and dealt with.
    this is until the 26th sep, why the 26th, so the russians have time to install the s300 system. therefore now making syria water tight and all Isreali aircraft at risk, weather in Israel or over Syria.

  67. peterAUS says:

    My, my….

    Looks like even the hard core Putin/Kremlin cultists are capable of rational/critical thought.

    And…hehe…the resident Kremlin tools/gatekeepers increasing their efforts to keep the flock in check.

    Good fun.

  68. J says: • Website
    @The Scalpel

    Scalpel wrote: “The S200 operators knew the F16′s were coming at them, so they had to choose between self-defense with the possibility of target error (they might have believed it was small) and self-sacrifice as well as allowing the F16′s to hit their (presumably very important) target. ”

    Obvious. The S200 operators AND their Russian supervisors knew all about the incoming IL20, in real time. They must have been advised about the coming F16s attack too. They should have been aware that the Israelis were not coming to get them, but the Iranian facility nearby. Israel openly declared that will not tolerate Iran to establish itself in Syria. The Israeli bank of Iran targets in Syria is known to the Russians and its destruction was expectable. As far as I know, Israel co-ordinates its actions in the area with Russia specifically to avoid tragic fuckups as the one that has happened. Maybe the S200 operators took the chance to hurt the Israelis anyway, underestimating the possibility to downing its own IL20. They hate Jews so much.

    Unlike other commenters, I am no expert in air combat and have no idea if 4 F16 (not one, but FOUR) coming down at lightning speed are able in the flick of a split second decision hide in the shadow of a slower IL20. Are Israeli pilots so good?

  69. Moi says:
    @yurivku

    Pure garbage from The Saker. BTW, even Paul Craig Roberts questioned Putin’s resolve.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  70. @J

    “They should have been aware that the Israelis were not coming to get them, but the Iranian facility nearby.”

    Just like the crew of the USS Liberty should’ve known that the Israelis were not coming to get them, right?

    So why did Israel feel the need to violate the agreement it had with Russia?

  71. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @J

    “…if 4 F16 (not one, but FOUR) coming down at lightning speed are able in the flick of a split second decision hide in the shadow of a slower IL20.”

    Clearly, you did not even read my comment. Why are you responding to it?

    “They should have been aware that the Israelis were not coming to get them, but the Iranian facility nearby.”

    How would they know that? Trust them at their word? That’s easy for you to say.

    Troll

  72. Erebus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Let’s put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state.

    Can you expand on that?

    Unless you’re simply pointing out that escalation to a large scale nuclear exchange means all states “will cease to exist’, this is a non-trivial statement that begs explication.

  73. @Kiza

    “[] Ultimately, this would suggest that Putin does not understand who his enemies are and how duplicitous they are. []”

    Exactly; nor does he understand what they want, and this seems to be the crux of the problem.

    Putin has made several public statements over the years which implicitly support the U.S. government’s false 9/11 narrative, and to me this poses the question: Is it that he cannot see what’s going on in the world (particularly in the corrupt “West”), or is it that he refuses to see?

  74. Erebus says:

    The concern I have as Russia turns it cheek for the nth time, is that credibility is in fact being lost, and not just at the “armchair strategist” level. The latter has a way of permeating the local society’s discourse, and that has consequences, of course, but worse than that one can’t help but notice that countries like India, a long time partner, are hedging their bets and that E. European countries like Poland are ratcheting provocative moves. ME countries, especially the takfiri supporters, continue to support terrorists and are now moving them on from Libya to Afghanistan, XinJiang, Philippines, etc. Is Russia gonna follow them? How many Syria’s can it handle?

    Meanwhile, the US’ belligerence is growing by the hour, and not only against Russia. The US is giving every indication that it’s going after China’s economy in a very serious way.

    At the end of the day, you don’t get to “play the long game” if your short game comes a cropper. Or, for that matter if it drags on until it stops being “short” and morphs into your long game by default. Therein lies disaster.

    4.5 yrs on from Maidan/Crimea, and 3 yrs on from going live in Syria, my spidey-sense is tingling. It’s saying that it’s been too long since we’ve seen a decisive move from Russia, while threats are being piled like sandbags around her. Soon, Russia’s gonna have to make a breakout move or it’s gonna find itself playing the short game forever, or as long as it takes to finally be overwhelmed.

    The Kremlin’s gotta ask itself, “What would have actually happened if we had lit the S400s and blew the IAF’s F16s out of the sky as soon as they showed up on attack vectors without agreed protocols having been followed?”

    My own guess is nothing in the short term. Their opponents would be as gobsmacked as they were after Crimea and Syria. There may be consequence is the longer term, but that action may have been just the thing that makes Russia’s long game possible so as to be in a position to meet those long game challenges.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @annamaria
  75. anonymous[204] • Disclaimer says:

    L.K writes:

    [Martyanov’s role appears to be to always make Russia look best; whether militarily, economically, whatever… completely unreliable character.]

    Who is going to trust an apologist who sit on lap of the US military and play with each other balls??
    Only dummies do that. He works with criminal US army such as the savage John Allen. Remember his speech at the time of election in support of the criminal and baby killer Hillary Clinton? He works with these terrorists and you expect him doing differently from what he is. Russia is cooperating with the criminal West and Israel against the interest of Muslim. Is that difficult to understand?
    Read the following to know who he is working with and associating with.

    https://www.usni.org/about/staff

    https://www.usni.org/board-directors

    Putin is a criminal Zionist and Russia is a laughing stock all over the world.
    Syria did not asked Putin to enter the war, but putin asked to enter Syria so he can control the
    Situation and kill more Muslims in Syria to help the criminal jewish mafia plan, Oded Yinon, in Syria.
    And so far we have seen traitor putin is doing exactly that. And putin apologists come here try to save his ugly face for the dummies. He knows that cooperating with Israel’s bombing in Syria will embolden the enemy, but PUTIN DOES NOT SEE ZIONIST BABY KILLERS as enemy, rather PARTNER to speed up the interest of the Zionist jews, exactly what US and criminal jewish trump family are doing. Traitor Putin is with the enemy and against interest of Syria. Is Russian military that dumb or criminal?
    PUTIN ACTION HAS CONTRIBUTED TO THE TERRORIST ACT IN IRAN TODAY, BECAUSE THE ZIONAZIS KNOW THAT THEY HAVE RUSSIA AND PUTIN ON BOARD. He is a closet Zionist jew like criminal Trump and trump family.

    At Least 30 Killed in Attack on Military Parade in Iran
    [Gunmen killed at least 25 people and wounded 60 others on Saturday in an attack on a military parade in Iran, state media reported, in a restive province that is home to most of the country’s Arab minority.
    The Islamic Republic News Agency reported the casualty figures at the parade in Ahvaz, in southwestern Iran, and said that, with many of the wounded in critical condition, the death toll was expected to rise.]
    Arab separatists that Jewish Mafia media, NYT, call these terrorists, HAVE BEEN CONSTRUCTED BY US-BRITAIN-ISRAEL and funded by the colony of Saudi Arabia against Iran. The people of Ahvaz fought against Saddam, who supported by the terrorist states of US-Britain-SA, helped by entire criminal West and Russia during the Iraq-Iran war. Iran forced all these bastard out with heavy death tolls and could have captured the entire Iraq, but criminal west with US leadership did not allow, because they had other plan in mind using the traitor KURDS.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/09/22/world/middleeast/iran-military-parade-attack.html

    Down with US-Israel-Britain-SA who have killed millions of the innocent people and bombed many Muslim countries into total destruction for the criminal Oded Yinon plan to protect the interest of criminal Zionist tribe and speed up the Jewish project “world government”.
    Jewish Mafia trump family must be tried at ICC so criminal Zionist baby killer Netanyahu. Don’t count on an Zionist impotent figure whose is in Syria to protect Israel’s interest not Syrian people.
    Russia as protector of the Jewish Mafia is not limited to Syria. Russia did the same during 1967 war to protect Israel against Egypt. I think the progressives at that were much more intelligent to laugh at Russia and discard it like a potato. Russia has done it TOOOOOOOOOOO MAAAAANY TIMMMMMMES.

  76. paulllll says:

    It’s possible to despise the back stabbing tool that Putin seems to have become without intending that the only alternative to, for example, his vicious collusion with Israel (almost as bad as Trump’s and in some ways worse) is for Putin to start WW3 by nuking Israel. Also it’s possible to hate the vicious rogue apartheid state that Israel has become without wanting to see Israel destroyed in any way. I’d like to see Putin grow a spine and Israel grow a conscience.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  77. anonymous[204] • Disclaimer says:

    Iran claims US, Israel responsible for military parade attack killing more than 30

    Iran’s foreign minister Javad Zarif blamed a ‘foreign regime’ backed by US for the parade attack

    An Iranian spokesman for the army tied the United States and Israel to the attack on an army parade in southern Iran that killed at least 29 people and wounded at least 50 more, according to the latest toll by the official IRNA news agency.

    “These terrorists…were trained & organized by two…Gulf countries,” Brigadier General Abolfazl Shekarchi told IRNA, insinuating that US allies in the region were responsible before adding, “They are not from Daesh or other groups fighting Iran…but they are linked to America & Mossad,” directly calling out the Israeli spy agency.

    A “group of assailants” attacked the parade in the city of Ahvaz, held to mark the anniversary of the start of the devastating eight-year war with Saddam Hussein’s Iraq in 1980, Iranian state television reported.

    “The response of the Islamic Republic of Iran to the smallest threat will be crushing”, Iranian President Hassan Rouhani said on his official website. “Those who give intelligence and propaganda support to these terrorists must answer for it.”

    https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/international/184677-180922-casualties-as-militants-attack-army-parade-in-south-iran-state-tv

    THANKS TO ZIONIST PUTIN. Down with US-Israel-Britain, axis of evil

    DEATH TO ODED YINON AND ITS ACTORS.

  78. @Kiza

    I have argued previously that Putin’s foreign policy is all about somehow becoming a junior partner of the west. He will never burn the bridge to the west if he can help it. He is a neoliberal to the core. Israeli Zionism is today heavily Russian, so he is truly an Israeli partner as well.

    All of his policies basically amount to trying to create a small space for Russia and its elites at the global geopolitical feast. Neither Putin nor Russians give a hoot about defending weak countries’ sovereignty, international law, value-based foreign policy, and such like stuff. The USSR, whatever its other faults and failings, did prop up the weaker and middle rung countries and enable them to pursue independent policies. But todays’ world is a non-ideological dog-eat-dog world and Putin is playing by its rules. His aims and objectives are very similar to American ones.

    What we see in Syria and elsewhere is a lot of theater. There are strong behind-the-scenes agreements between the Russians and the Americans. Ditto with the Israelis. This is not a hot war, nor a cold war. It is an aggressive lining up of animals close to feeding time. The Syrian carcass will be snarled over, perhaps a few blows exchanged, then it will be feeding time. Observe the feeding time behavior of lions and hyenas, how the fights proceed within unwritten rules, and how ultimately the food gets parcelled out. This is what Syria is all about. The next victim could be Iran.

    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @peterAUS
  79. Iris says:

    “Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?”

    While nobody can really guess what an outstanding statesman as President Putin has in plan, and while Russia is perfectly entitled to pursue its own interests should these materialise in good relationships with Israel, resorting to assumptions of Israeli “innocence” and Syrian military incompetence is at best naïve, and frankly, intellectually irrelevant and disappointing.

    The presence of the French frigate, and the perfect coincidence with the signature of the Sochi agreements (removing any excuse of a ZUS-led Coalition attack on Syria under the pretext of preventing a “humanitarian disaster” in Idlib) point that the downing of the Il-20 plane was not a random accident.

    Anyway …. For what it is worth: news from Pan-Arab, pro-Syrian, sources is that the Israeli attack was a deliberate plan to sabotage the Sochi agreements.

    - The Israeli military delegation sent to Moscow was not received by President Putin.
    - The Russian officials rejected the report of events presented to them by the Israelis. While they required an objective, factual accounts of the incident, the Israelis instead stressed on their concern with the presence of Hezbollah and Iran, and blamed the Russian and Syrian military for mistakes leading to the downing of the plane.
    - The Israeli tried to negotiate Iran’s withdrawal from Syria against holding up their aerial strikes.
    - The Russian military rejected both the report and the proposals, presenting evidence of equivalent Israeli foreign involvement as support to anti-Syrian terrorist groups in the Golan Heights.

  80. VICB3 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Respectfully, some counterpoints:

    “Recall what happened with Kursk.”

    That was in 2000, I believe. Things were a bit more rational then, with the NeoCons and Christian Zionists (with their dispensationalist nonsense) having far less influence. Also the Kursk accident was nowhere near a active war zone with massing of fleets. In other words, rational adults were still in charge. The World Trade Center false flag – really, that’s what it was – changed all that.

    “Let’s put it this way, once Russians and Americans begin to kill each-other, Israel goes immediately down. In fact, it will cease to exist as a state. But who wants to pay such a price? Bibi knows that.”

    Again, you’re assuming that everyone is rational. A counterview would be that Israel is a psychopathic state, and thus profoundly irrational. And also, like all psychopaths, with time Israel as a state has become sloppy or delusional. Perhaps, by their reckoning, it *would* be rational inasmuch as: A) They figure that they can ride it out, B) They can greatly expand their territory in the aftermath, the whole Eretz Yisrael Hashlema thing, and C) The undoubted global backlash against J ews will further enhance Israel’s position as *The* refuge against anti-semitism or some such thing, creating an influx of settlers into the homeland safe haven. Hell, they could even be seen as the ones – make a big show of – trying to broker a peace, and despite having been bombed themselves. “See, despite everything, look how peace loving and forgiving we J ews really are.” That might even include insisting that a portion of Western Syria continue on as a sort of safe haven for Middle Eastern Christians and fringe Muslim Sects, much as it is now.

    Of course Israel wouldn’t just sink the carrier as soon as it got close. It would wait until Russia imposed a no-fly zone over Syria and that resulted in a few incidents with American aircraft. Wait for tensions to rise over a month or so, and then goodbye Truman. (For added – though overly transparent – effect, it could be done on a highly symbolic date, say December 7th.)

    Insta Causus Belli. The Necocons have their war, the Dispensationalists are closer to their rapture, and a clueless Trump – who never reads a book or knows history – does what he’s told.

    This is all armchair generalship of course. But its certain that when – and more importantly *if *- the shooting starts, things will go where no man thought.

    My mom, who live through it all before, says this all feels like the late 1930s. I say that it looks like a bit too much like 1914. All that is open to discussion of course, but I do know this:

    I like reading History, but I don’t want to live it.

    Just a thought.

    VicB3

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  81. @Erebus

    “The concern I have as Russia turns it cheek for the nth time, is that credibility is in fact being lost, and not just at the ‘armchair strategist’ level.

    Sometimes when I reflect on the fact that Russia had the good sense to continue to develop and deploy new weapon systems, particularly of the “game changing” variety – even though the “cold war” has ostensibly ended – I wonder if Putin perhaps does have more of an idea as to what’s actually going on than I usually give him credit for.

    Maybe he’s waiting until the S-500 system is deployed before he risks direct confrontation with the “beast”? And maybe that’s why the beast seems to be desperately trying to start a war now, rather than after the RS-28 Sarmat missile and S-500 air defense systems are deployed?

  82. peterAUS says:
    @seeing-thru

    Pretty much.

    One problem, though: while I agree with you re Putin/Kremlin, the other side ,the “Western partner”, isn’t keen on that “snarling over the carcass”. They want it all. Not even scraps for the “junior”.

    That is the problem.
    Should Kremlin feel “starving”, the “snarling” could go nuclear.

  83. bj says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It is rumored Gary Powers U-2 was downed by the CIA sabotage, to derail the Eisenhower-Khrushchev summit meeting.

  84. @tspoon

    The velocity of an S-200 type SAM is said to be 2500m/s, and the range 300km

    No, Sir, it is not 2,500 m/s. And that is why general political “strategy” so called discussions require a professional explanation of all those teeny-weeny details of military hardware. here is Russian Digest of Air Defense where it gives a good review of S-200 complex.

    http://pvo.guns.ru/s200/i_dubna.htm

    FYI, the maximum velocity any missile from S-200 complex reached was in 1988 in laboratory trials of System “Holod” (air launch) was 1800 m/s, which is M=6.5. Standard speed of the missile with was around 1500 m/s which is around M=5.5 (give and take). The speed of the “spread” of fragments upon denotation in the target’s “volume” is 1700 m/s. The number 2,500 m/s which is obviously taken from Anglo-versions of all kinds Wiki or what have you, is obviously written by the students of art college without understanding that this is the velocity of targets (2,500 m/s) which complex S-200 is capable to intercept. This is precisely the range of velocities which involved operational-tactical ballistics within (I speculate) up to 1000 kilometers launch range. You may not know it, but this small fact, when used by all kinds of internet “experts” may interfere grossly with the “narrative”.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  85. @Erebus

    Can you expand on that?

    Israel is a known “owner” of nuclear weapons and is the nation which, depending on scenario, has the ability to attack pretty much anything in Europe. Possible counter-force scenario between Russia and US will involve “killing” of Israel’s nuclear deterrent, as it will be with European NATO members (UK and France), but Israel is tiny and any nuclear strike there is, basically, a death sentence. This is in a nutshell–of course contingencies vary but I am sure Israel’s nuclear sites are in the targeting data base of Russia’s nuclear triad. That is until Israel gets the message and gets back to daddy (or mommy) and that is what is in play right now. It will take some time, though.

    • Replies: @Miggle
    , @anarchyst
  86. chris says:
    @Felix Keverich

    The lesson Israelis are learning from this incident is that Russia is weak,

    Maybe! But then, why would the Israelis have sent the high brass to Moscow? To pre-empt an escalation? Like an upgrade of Syrian defensive weapons? Possibly, still this must the closest Israel has ever come to actually apologizing for something.

    They must really like the deal they have with Russia, allowing them to bomb Syria to their heart‘s content. It all seems like kabuki theatre for the world. Putin knows that it’s the Israelis who control the US sanctions, the US troops in the ME, and the Ukrainian crisis. Yet they seem to be kind of cautious, trying to avoid a conflagration that could get out of control.

    Its like one of those scenes from Get Smart, where Max and the Kaos agent have to pretend to be good buddied in front of Max‘s uncle Abner, all the while keeping guns jammed in each others ribbs .

    • Replies: @EoinW
  87. voicum says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Andrei , pay no attention to those ‘people’.Your analogy to quantum mechanics is beyond their understanding.Keep doing what you are doing.I , for one , wold like to know more.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  88. Everyone seems to be forgetting, Mssr. Putin, probably is the richest man in the world…..ill gotten gain acquired through corruption, robbery, bribery,murder(Beslan), and knowing how to bring his KGB/FSB skills to control the (mostly Jewish) oligarchs. If you think that for one minute the Zionists and Banksters do not have him by the short ones and played a major role in his wealth accumulation, you would be sadly naive. It’s time for this botoxed prick to be removed from his high estate by the Russian military and replaced with someone who values Russian lives more than filthy lucre. The Turks killing a Russian airman and his procession to make a deal with the neo-Ottoman Erdogan was the prelude to this treasonous lack of response by the Israelis on his countrymen. He needs to go and now …. ultimately to stop Zio WWIII.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Miggle
  89. Erebus says:

    One possible scenario that I didn’t find in Saker’s article, or in my quick read of the comments is that the IL-20 take down was a deliberate act by a rogue element in the SAA.

    The proximate cause may be the recent Turkey/Russia Idlib agreement, or it may be long growing resentment at the long series of agreements that Russia’s made in the Syrian theatre “balancing” Syria’s allies and enemies of which the Idlib agreement is the latest. The stark truth may be that Russia’s clever diplomacy and realpolitik may not sit well with all Syrians, just as it doesn’t sit well with all pro-Russian commentators.

    Russia’s friendship with Israel must rankle deeply, and Israel’s wanton abuse of that friendship serves to add repeated insult to repeated injury. They may be pissed that they have to battle them with ancient S200s, or not at all, rather than the S300s they were promised and denied. Iranian advisors to the SAA may be equally unhappy with being “balanced” by Russian moves. The list of possibilities grows rapidly into a web that’s too tangled for my pay grade.

    That Assad took 2 days to issue condolences, and that he sent them textually, rather than calling Putin personally was odd. His words struck me as odd as well, particularly the sentence “We are confident that such painful acts would not affect you and us to continue fighting terrorism.” doesn’t jive with tragic, but plain human error. (from http://tass.com/world/1022404)

    Meanwhile, the Israeli panic that Saker notes could have been all about showing Putin that their responsibility was limited to providing an excuse for a false-flag, and getting out in front of any investigations that Damascus might report later.

    If the above conjecture comes close to the mark, however, Russia will be forced to re-calibrate its strategy. The last thing they need is an anti-Russian mentality building in the SAA and/or IRGC. Both of the latter have been fighting the good fight for 7 years and taking heavy losses. The so-called “axis of resistance” is a big zero without both of them on board, and indeed Russia’s continued presence in Tartus and Latakia after the war would become an uncomfortable one.

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @utu
    , @Miggle
  90. Iris says:

    “Russia will be forced to re-calibrate its strategy. The last thing they need is an anti-Russian mentality building in the SAA and/or IRGC”.

    It is Israel who has been summoned to Moscow to provide justification for its actions, so it does not look like the Syrian Army’s actions are put in question, not publicly anyway.

    Israel and the Western coalition having lost the war on Syria, they are trying to “win the peace” by isolating Syria and removing the presence of its regional allies Hezbollah and Iran.
    The timing of the airstrike was not only linked to the Sochi agreement (another stroke of genius by President Putin for keeping control of such a dangerous an complex military confrontation), but also to the announcement Hezbollah now possess ballistic missiles in Lebanon, transferred to them by Iran.

    Another unmistakable sign of the Zio/Western coalition trying to put pressure on Syria’s allies is the synchronised terrorist attack at the military parade in Iran’s Ahvaz province, attack carried out by “Western-compatible” separatist factions.

    https://www.rt.com/news/439139-iran-summons-envoys-uk-denmark-netherlands/


    Finally, the Russia/Iran relations must be very good, because President Putin was one of the first head of states to present his condolences to Iranian President Rohani.

    In conclusion, the Israelis are in a difficult situation. Because they are used to impunity, they carried out a reckless action with no consideration for the consequences, which resulted in the criminal loss of 15 servicemen. No surprise there, same old psychopaths.

    Russia has announced it will close the airspace above Syrian territorial waters after 26th September. So much for believing the Israeli excuses.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  91. This is what best explains, at least in part, the very high number of US cruise missiles intercepted in April.

    Please show some evidence that any American cruise missiles were intercepted approaching or over Syria last April.

    • Replies: @Rabbitnexus
  92. Erebus says:
    @Erebus

    I just came across an Andrew Korybko article saying much the same as I suggested @ #90 above. He’s well above my pay grade, so that scenario may not be as far-fetched as I thought.

    https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/21/heres-how-the-latakia-tragedy-nay-conspiracy-might-have-played-out/

    It makes more sense, IMHO than Joaquin Flores’ theory that the French did it.

    https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

    One reason that I like Korybko’s better is that it converges with my points in #74 above. That all this Russian cheek-turning is having deleterious effects in the ranks of their allies, and apparently no effect on its adversaries who just keep coming.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  93. I don’t have any problem getting it. I have my suspicions that the French frigate may however have been the actual shooter and for obvious reasons, Russians are not saying that, but are also not budging on their refusal to blame Syria. Not to mention as I think you imply Russian personnel were likely involved in the firing of the missiles from the S-200. You’ve said it before and so has Martyanov, the Zippers and yanks are pecking away at the Syrians but the fact is Russia, Syria and Iran are finishing the game off by keeping their eye on the finish line.

  94. @David Davenport

    Lots of that is available are you mad? Got any evidence that barrage caused any significant damage to anything of merit? Nope, that is what is missing son.

  95. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @J

    “They hate Jews so much.”
    who doesn’t these days?

    “Unlike other commenters, I am no expert in air combat and have no idea if 4 F16 (not one, but FOUR) coming down at lightning speed are able in the flick of a split second decision hide in the shadow of a slower IL20. Are Israeli pilots so good?”

    this was planed in advance by the evil tribe….
    so the pilots knew exactly what they where going to do when they stepped in their plane

  96. anon[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bill65

    One of the first courses in law school is intentional torts. The intent, an act expressing that intent, and damages are the only requirement in many torts. The tort of Battery; intent does not have to be an intent to cause the harm that actually occurred.. Merely expressing an intent in some kind of action satisfies the element of intent; it does not matter to assignment of liability if the actual harm was unintended.

    In criminal law: A holds up a bank, five cops show up, B shoots his gun at the ceiling, the bullet bounces and kills one of the cops,and starts a fire in the bank A is probably guilty of murder, Arson and attempted robbery.

    so if while intending to shoot target victim A, the shooter instead accidentally or otherwise shoots innocent non targeted victim B, the intent requirement for Battery is satisfied. Hence Israel, and each and every one of its leaders, might be liable. w/o regards to a showing that the intended target was unharmed, while a different innocent was unintentionally harmed. Its the harm caused by an expression of an intention that produces the liability. It does not matter that the harm happened to an unintended party.

    Trespass to chattel, interference with a chattel which results in injury to the possessor or injury to a person or thing in which the possessor of the chattel has a legally protected interest(like life and assets) results in liability for trespass. If Israel without privilege touches a Indian Snake Charmers Snake, causing Snake Charmers Snake to bite a Russian bystander, Israel probably liable for the injury to the Russian bystander.
    But there is more, the doctrine of transferred intent applies. Here the intent in four other torts (battery, assault, trespass to land or false imprisonment) can be substituted to satisfy the requisite intent for trespass to chattel. If Israel intends to destroy Syrian dams with weapons and missiles, and instead causes a Syrian response that kills Russian soldiers and planes, the tort would hold Israel liable for the damage to the plane and the deaths of the Russians. IANAL. There is a lot to this intent thing, but generally, I understand, when intent is established, especially if unlawful trespass or criminality is part of the expression of the intentional act, that Intent element in the tort would be satisfied.

    The Tort of Extreme and Outrageous conduct; behavior “that reaches beyond all possible bounds of decency; atrocious, utterly intolerable in a civilized community ( such as invading a sovereign nation; attacking its assets and killing its inhabitants). Here the expression of intent is in the outrageous behavior, the persons harmed might not even be known to the person who engaged in the Tort of Extreme and Outrageous conduct.

    IANAL and I would appreciate it if a lawyer would make these point clear and clarify my understanding of these principles, especially as they might apply to the situation at hand.
    My point here is the intent and transfer of intent principles suggest Israel intended unauthorized trespass, acts of aggression and war, and it is indifferent to liability for the crime or damages that conducting war against Russia was unintended.

    Moreover, it seems to me unlikely that Israel would plan an attack, and not coordinate it with Russia, when such an attack was so close to Russian Assets and Russian Personnel. Israel had to know the risk of killing Russians and destroying Russian assets was likely (Scienter?), which suggest to me Israel intended to use Syrian technical limitations as a means to punish Russia for protecting Syria. [ Res ipsa Loquitur comes to mind]. Wonder how a Jewish court and Jewish judge would rule on this one?

  97. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @VICB3

    yes I have a bad feeling too about the escalation from FUKUS and Pissrael this year
    it seams we fly towards ww3 and nobody seams really to care or realize it
    like August 39 when people where sitting on the terasses in Berlin Paris Prag drinking beer and having a good time
    and less than a month later – boom
    it’s really scary times we live in

  98. @MobettaJenkum

    You seem to have tuned in on the wrong conversation. The same boilerplate words won’t do whenever mention of Israel, Russia, Syria or whatever sets you off. Of course, come to think of it, you might really believe it was Mossad which managed an IAF operation to cleverly cause the Syrians to shoot down a Russian aircraft so that there might be a few days without regular Russian surveillance of the kind that aircraft was providing.

  99. Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?

    Because they’re trying to start WWIII. And to that end ‘inadvertently’ attacking Russia to get them to retaliate, which in turn drags America into the fray is par for the course for them.

    …which is in direct violation of an agreement between Israel and Russia.

    What could possibly possess you to think Israel gives a damn about violating agreements, alliances, or the like?

    Do we know that they did it deliberately? No, we don’t. We really don’t.

    But that’s the way you bet when it comes to Israel. By deception thou shalt do war.

    So why is everybody assuming that the Israelis carefully planned the whole thing?

    It doesn’t have to be an intelligent plan for it to be a plan. All they need is to goad an attack on themselves and in swoops Captain America to lick boot. They know this. The world knows this. Why don’t you know this?

    But could they be sure that the local commanders would not order an immediate retaliation (as their current rules of engagement do authorize them to!)?

    Everyone knows the stakes at this point. The Jews have been engaging in their par for the course ‘lets you and him fight’ strategy nonstop since Trump took office. The only thing staving off WWIII is US and Russian restraint. And Israel has been testing it constantly. Politically and militarily.

    Seems to me that the potential risks of that kind of operation would be pretty high, while the potential rewards rather unclear.

    I would say the opposite is true. The rewards are the third and final war they need to succeed in completing their Oded Yinon Plan and establishing their Greater Israel. The risks are… some superficial damage to their own fortifications before the American cash cows and cannon fodder came in to fix it all up, bolster said defenses further and then kill and die for Israel until they get what they want or are destroyed themselves. Worst case scenario, America is wiped out, Israel is cornered and all hope is lost for them, so they invoke their Samson Option and destroy all life on Earth in a nuclear holocaust.

    What I am saying is that Putin, in contrast to the hordes of self-appointed armchair strategists, does have to look at all the possible options before deciding what to do next. Because even if we assume that the Israelis are irresponsible, arrogant, evil and reckless (which they are), this is not a reason for the Russians to emulate them or start a war.

    We’ve come full circle back to why they did this and why Russia didn’t and won’t retaliate. Until you can glass Israel over without them taking the whole world with them in an act of mutually assured destruction, the only response to Israel is to not give them what they want. Which is WWIII. America vs Russia, while they finish purging the remaining naitons on their Oded Yinon Plan checklist and pushing millions of muslims into Europe to wrap up their Coudenhove-Kalergi plan to mongrelize the west into something primitive enough to keep rule over from their throne of Greater Israel for the rest of time.

    the Israelis and Russians had an agreement, the Russians therefore classified the Israelis as “non-threat”, but it does not take a genius to understand that four Israeli F-16 flying towards the Latakia Governorate are up to no good

    It doesn’t take a genius to know that even when they’re not in F-16s flying toward the Latakia Governorate that they are up to no good. You write an article to question if the incident was a legitimate accident then spend the vast majority of said article providing justification for not believing that it was a legitimate accident.

    But for the rest of us, we need to remain critical of both Putin and Russian policies, but we need to do so by logically processing well-established facts

    Good idea. Lets start by processing this well established fact:

    the Israelis are irresponsible, arrogant, evil and reckless

    before asking dumb questions like this:

    Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?

    This whole god forsaken perpetual war has all been orchestrated by Israel for Israel. No, they’re not quasi infallible, but they are smart, they are exceptionally crafty and they are also bloodthirsty maniacs hellbent on goading WWIII for their own profit. And if I am not mistaken, they seem to be getting desperate for said war to be underway.

    The only question that’s even worth asking is: How do we ferret out wherever it is these Jews are hiding all of however many nukes they have, in all of whatever nations they’re hiding them in, so that we can somehow simultaneously disarm them all without them noticing, and then reduce Israel to a smoldering crater, thereby finally allowing humanity to take at least a few steps back from the proverbial edge of the abyss to breathe a collective sigh of relief?

  100. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @General Koofta

    By your reasoning Putin would go into public mourning every time a drunken driver kills a Russian serviceman returning to duty or performing a ceremonial duty on the streets of Moscow.

  101. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @voicum

    wow you must be a real genius then

  102. Erebus says:
    @Iris

    It is Israel who has been summoned to Moscow to provide justification for its actions…

    Summoned? Or did Israel insist on making its case directly at the earliest opportunity while Assad hesitated? At this stage, I’m don’t know which it was, but they’re quite different with different implications.

    The timing of the airstrike was (linked)… to the announcement Hezbollah now possess ballistic missiles in Lebanon…

    AFAIK, Hezbollah’s only ever had ballistic missiles (along with rockets), and they’ve never had cruise missiles. The difference, apparently, is that HZB has now acquired “high accuracy” ballistic missiles, though their range remains unknown. “High accuracy” changes things, but not critically unless they’re also sufficiently long range to reach southern Israel with high accuracy. That does change things.

    Finally, the Russia/Iran relations must be very good, because President Putin was one of the first head of states to present his condolences to Iranian President Rohani.

    That, or he’s trying to repair them. I wouldn’t read anything definitive into that.

    Russia has announced it will close the airspace above Syrian territorial waters after 26th September. So much for believing the Israeli excuses.

    Umm, from what I’ve been able to find, the airspace closure is until Sept 26, affects non-commercial flights below 6000M (19,000 ft) and is part of a NOTAM covering naval exercises in the eastern Med. That’s quite a ways from “clos(ing) the airspace”. Of course, war planes flying above 6000M are very vulnerable to S200s, so we can be sure there won’t be any excitement until after the 26th. Meh.

    • Replies: @Iris
  103. Anonymous[684] • Disclaimer says:
    @Harold Smith

    I guess it’s more simple than that
    he is simply not allowed to talk about 9/11

    as we all know that Putin outsmartes ALL
    leaders of this planet by the factor of at least 3 he knows very well that 9/11 was a false flag
    he knew it probably from the beginning

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  104. @The scalpel

    Yes, The Saker’s friend André has been getting a bit excited and I am not sure why. It certainly makes good common sense that the Israeli aircraft were always likely to use an available big aircraft (preferably not American) as cover from Syrian missile batteries. There is no need to suppose the authorisation of this – specifically – came from more than a couple of levels above the pilots if it was indeed other than a standard default procedure.

    What the Israeli aircrafts’ mission was would be interesting to know.

    Saker’s commendable realism, based on some relevant knowledge it seems, about the prevalence and nature of military SNAFUs should now be turned on all that can be known about the Israeli side of the Liberty affair. The detail must prevail.

  105. Indeed, do not see what Israel could gain by shooting down a Russian plane, nor anyone else.
    Putin, in my opinion, a very sensible politician, he knows very well that he must not let himself be provoked.
    He even does not want to provoke others, is my impression.
    The stories about this of course cannot be proven, but it is already years ago that something fell from great height into the E part of the Mediterranean.
    The story was that the USA had launched a missile towards Syria, that was destroyed by a Russian system.
    It was never confirmed.
    The USA and Israel stated that there had been an excercise above the E Mediterranean.
    Another story, also of course not proven, is that a single Russian unarmed planes made several low passes over one of the newest USA navy ships in the Black Sea, it could do this because all the ships systems did not function until the plane had disappeared over the horizon.
    As far as I know Russia made no comment.

  106. Anon[436] • Disclaimer says:
    @Kiza

    Thank G you are not running the show – or even I trust doing something requiring dispassionate thinking like managing family fortunes as trustee. What happened when the Soviet Union shot down a civil airliner with many Americans on board? Thank G Putin hasn’t decided to blow up everything just because one Russian plane is downed and a few crewmen killed.

  107. Miro23 says:
    @Robert Snefjella

    The Israelis would know the location and habits of the Il-20. Israeli fighter jets flying near it while engaged in hostile action would inescapably and intentionally greatly increase the risk to the Il-20. The last minute ‘warning’ given by the Israelis was no real warning at all, but an insulting betrayal, comparable to a ‘friend’ informing you that a snipers bullet has just been fired at you. Wasn’t that nice. I warned you.

    Put those two points together and it doesn’t look like a mistake.

    When the Israeli’s launched their Latakia attack they would have had a detailed awareness of air movements on their route and Syrian anti-aircraft defences.

  108. utu says:
    @Erebus

    was a deliberate act by a rogue element in the SAA

    One can spin many possibilities. Like that it was a hoax perpetrated by Israeli and Russians in cahoots so Russia will have a good excuse to start putting pressure on Syria to get rid of Iranians. Get Iranians out then Israeli will stop bombing you and our planes will be safer.

  109. Miggle says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    But nuclear launch sites, the known locations of nuclear weapons, can be destroyed with conventional bombs, can’t they? Why use nuclear weapons?

    • Replies: @Jeffery Cohen
  110. Miggle says:
    @General Koofta

    You can’t even spell Stupidity. The spelling “Koofta” is wrong.

    Now ask Daddy to tuck you up in bed and turn out the light, little one. When you can read properly you’ll find that Putin is different from your fantasy version.

  111. padre says:
    @yurivku

    Your statement is so stupid, it is self explanatory!

  112. Miggle says:
    @Erebus

    Your last couple of points look good to me. But I don’t understand why Putin panders to Israel anyway. What is there to gain?

    Perhaps he thinks US support for Israel is the critical factor.

    Or just that it is better to do one thing at a time, take Idlib, get the USA out of its illegal bases in Syria, and until all that is done, leave Israel as a side issue.

    A rogue state that considers it has the right to launch air attacks on its nearest neighbors at any time might turn out to be a little unpredictable also. If S400s were installed in both Syria and Lebanon, ending all fly-overs, and a battle-hardened SAA started walking into the Golan Heights, how would it react?

    • Replies: @Jeffery Cohen
  113. @Miggle

    You can’t even spell Stupidity. The spelling “Koofta” is wrong.

    Why do you think it is wrong. It is not short vowel, but rather long vowel. Some people write long vowel in English with double vowels.

    Like Salam has long vowel too instead of short vowel. So, some people write it as, “Salaam” and others as, “Salam”. There is no rule how to write long Arabic vowels in English. The Wahhabi generally write long Arabic vowels in English as double vowels.

    Salam or salaam (Arabic: سلام‎, salam) is an Arabic word that literally means “peace”, but is also used as a general greeting, above all in Arabian countries and by the Muslims and farsi language countries, but also in other countries where Islam is important.

    Add to this, Arabic has 3 vowels and English has 5 vowels. Try to fit the 3 vowels of Arabic into 5 vowels of English.

    How many ways Mohammad, Muhammad, Mohammed is written in English.

    • Replies: @Miggle
  114. So, the Russian Ministry of Defence is saying the exact opposite of the statement by the zionazi stooge Putin, who pretended the shooting down of the Il 20 was a “tragic accident”. This could not have been done without effectively neutralising Putin, who is still officially the commander in chief of the Russian armed forces. A soft coup may have taken place, and Putin compelled to fall into line. Let’s see if the zionazis now face real pain, such as their war criminals being shot out of the air. If they do, we’ll know that the Putin era is over.

    https://www.rt.com/news/439151-russia-israel-il-20-negligence/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

  115. @Miggle

    But nuclear launch sites, the known locations of nuclear weapons, can be destroyed with conventional bombs, can’t they? Why use nuclear weapons?

    Very true! And ISISraHell nuclear weapons are real, real old. Almost obsolete.

  116. @Miggle

    Your last couple of points look good to me. But I don’t understand why Putin panders to Israel anyway. What is there to gain?

    Putin doesn’t pander to ISISraHell, he panders to USA. Both Russia and USA, including Iran are out there to destroy ISISraHell.

    Saker who lives in USA, thinks all American are incompetent and imbecile. It reminds me of Socrates’ quote.

  117. Iris says:
    @Erebus

    Thanks for you detailed reply.

    The reading we make of the events quickly unfolding at the moment is of course based on interpretations made by observers and analysts who may have access to information we don’t. I found that a lot of relevant information, albeit partisan, comes from pro-Syrian Arabic channels. This is what I was reporting.

    1- There is definitely talks of closing the Syrian airspace above Syrian waters after the completion of military manoeuvres planned to finish on 26th Sep. The Israeli fighter planes were far off Israeli safety zone, and into Russian-controlled airspace, as per the agreements made between Russia and Israel.
    The report just issued by the Russian MoD is clear enough as per where the prime responsibilities lie with:

    ” A minute-by-minute account of the Il-20 downing shows Israel’s culpability and either its military bosses’ lack of appreciation of relations with Moscow, or their control of commanding officers, the Russian defence ministry said.

    “We believe that the blame for the Russian Il-20 aircraft tragedy lies entirely with the Israeli Air Force,” said spokesman Major General Igor Konashenkov, before revealing a detailed account of events leading to the downing of the Russian Il-20 military aircraft on September 17″.

    https://www.rt.com/news/439151-russia-israel-il-20-negligence/

    2 -Regarding the Russia/Iran relationships, they seem much better than what usually described in Western press. It was stressed that President Putin was one of the first to express condolences for the abject terrorist crime in Ahwaz, stating that Russia is ready to further increase cooperation with Iran to fight all forms of terrorism.

    3- The announcement made by Hezbollah that they now possess “high-accuracy” missiles is definitely met with much angst by Israel; Netanyahu himself publicly reacted to Nasrallah’ s statement, so there is something serious going on.

    • Replies: @Iris
  118. Miggle says:
    @Jeffery Cohen

    Hmm. A highly intelligent reply from a Cohen. Thank you.

  119. @anon

    Different jurisdictions have different laws, different interpretations of the same principles and even different principles. Before you can discuss legal principles you must identify the jurisdiction.

    • Replies: @anon
  120. Mr M. says:

    I do believe it was a deliberate attempt by Israel to get a Russian plane shot down.

    The biggest problem Israel and the Zionist Socialist USA faces when it comes to destroying Syria for the sake of making Israel greater again, is Russia. So long as Russia is allied with Syria the western client states of Israel can’t invade and destroy this hated enemy of Jews.

    Likewise, Russia can’t attack Israel for what it does in Syria, because that would bring down the whole western world in retaliation and start off WWIII before the time is right.

    No, I think this was a poorly planned and clumsy attempt at creating a false flag attack in the form of luring Syria into shooting down a Russia plane in an attempt to cause a diplomatic crisis between Syria and Russia that would end with Russia leaving Syria to be destroyed the Israel and its client states of the US/UK and the rest of the bullied Nato states.

    It most likely failed because someone did not get informed and that someone had the brain power required to grab the phone and tell the Russians at the last minute because they saw that chances of the plan backfiring was too great to even think about it.

    • Agree: anarchyst
    • Replies: @James Speaks
  121. tyrone says:
    @Felix Keverich

    Weak ?strong? how about limited ,aren’t we all ,Putin has a very cool head ,his goal is to restore Assad ,retake Syrian territory not fight a wider war ,all in the face of U.S. ,Israeli , european and sunni muslim world opposition .Not to shabby.

    • Replies: @Jeff Davis
  122. mena says:

    the Israeli state as a hole.

    Well, yes.

  123. @Anonymous

    “I guess it’s more simple than that
    he is simply not allowed to talk about 9/11″

    But he did talk about it. He could’ve said something like “I don’t know what actually happened on 9/11″ but instead he dismissed the idea of U.S. “government” complicity.

    “as we all know that Putin outsmartes ALL
    leaders of this planet by the factor of at least 3 he knows very well that 9/11 was a false flag
    he knew it probably from the beginning”

    That’s sarcasm, right?

  124. Bottom line, Putin is part of the global cabal(China,Israel,U.S., Great Britain, Russia, France, etc.)who’s main goal is to see that Syria is “partitioned” in the way they will all profit from. It’s always been about the money and power. Bottom line is Syria will never be the united, sovereign nation it was before its planned destruction was started.

    https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-06-06/partitioning-syria-oil-gas-and-peace

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  125. The fact that the author is getting so worked up about this tells us just what a disaster it is for Putin.

  126. Yes, poor, incompetent Israel has a history of making many mistakes. Just ask a surviving member of the USS Liberty.(sarcasm intended)

  127. anarchyst says:

    This “incident” is Russia’s version of the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty (GTR-5) on June 8, 1967.
    I wonder what the Israelis have on Putin, who is already making excuses for this Israeli act or war.

  128. Miro23 says:

    The Russian MoD have no doubt about the set up, but don’t know at what level it originated. They’re really angry and Putin has gone quiet.

    https://www.rt.com/news/439151-russia-israel-il-20-negligence/

    “Once the Syrian air defenses responded to the initial strike, the Israeli jets switched on radar jamming and pulled back, apparently preparing for another attack. One of the Israeli jets then came closer to the Syrian coast and approached the Russian plane, which was preparing to land at that time.”

    • Replies: @Iris
  129. anarchyst says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The United States government gets its marching orders from Israel. THAT is a major problem, with dual-nationality Israelis running our government and formulating both our foreign and domestic policy.

    Cleaning the swamp should involve getting rid of ALL dual-nationality types. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for anyone having dual loyalties in MY country.

    In addition, Israel holds a Damocles sword over the rest of the world with its undocumented nukes.
    If a nuclear device is off in an American or European city, it will have Israel’s fingerprints all over it. Israel is desperate to keep the American money spigot running, as well as sabotaging the Palestinian peace process that the world wants it to take seriously.

    In fact, if a nuclear device is lit off anywhere in the world, it will have come from Israel’s secret nuclear stockpile.

    The “power outage” in Atlanta was a convenient excuse for Israel to perform a logistical “sleight of hand”, as an Israeli plane was allowed to land and take off during the “power outage” without receiving customs clearance or inspection. This is one of many Israeli companies that possesses a “special exemption” granted by the U S government that frees it from customs inspections. Just maybe another one of Israel’s nukes was just being pre-positioned or nuclear triggers (tritium) were being renewed, getting ready for “the big one”. As most Americans are tired of all of the foreign wars being fought for Israel’s benefit, another “incident” on American soil would be enough to galvanize the American public, once again, (just like WTC 9-11) to support another war for Israel’s benefit. Israel’s “samson option” is a real threat to “light one off” in a European or American city, if Israel’s interests are not taken seriously.

    Israel refuses to abide by IAEA guidelines concerning its nukes as they are already distributed around the world. Israel would not be able to produce all of them as most of them are not in Israel, proper. No delivery systems are needed as Israel’s nukes are already place. Look for another false flag operation with the blame being put on Iran or Syria. You can bet that some Iranian or Syrian passports will be found in the rubble.

    Israel also threatens to detonate nuclear devices in several US cities. Talk about total INSANITY; the so-called Samson Option is it.

    As an aside, American “foreign aid” is prohibited from being given to any country that has not signed the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty or refuses to abide by International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) guidelines regarding its nuclear devices. Guess what?? Israel does not abide by EITHER and still gets the majority of American foreign aid. This prohibition also applies to countries that do not register their agents of a foreign governmentwith the U S State Department. Guess what?? Israel (again) with its American Israel Political Action Committee (AIPAC) still gets foreign aid, in contravention of American law..

    There are forty or so congressmen, senators and thousands of high-level policy wonks infecting the U S government who hold dual citizenship with Israel. Such dual citizenship must be strictly prohibited. Those holding dual citizenship must be required to renounce said foreign citizenship. Refusal to do so should result in immediate deportation with loss of American citizenship. Present and former holders of dual citizenship should never be allowed to serve in any American governmental capacity.

    When Netanyahu addressed both houses of congress, it was sickening to see our politicians slobber all over themselves to PROVE that they were unconditional supporters of Israel. Just who the hell do they work for? Certainly not for the interests of the American people and the United States, they should renounce their United States citizenship and be deported to Israel.

    • Replies: @Amber Dekstris
  130. Zionist Israel did this deliberately knowing full well that Putin would not risk WWIII over the shootdown of the Russian plane and the loss of 15 lives and so the Zionists did what they always do they murdered defenseless men on the plane to complete their bombing of Syria , this is what Zionists do they kill without regard, look at what they are doing in Palestine where they shoot men and women and children and the Zionist controlled western press does not do jack shit.

    Zionist Israel controls every facet of the U.S. government and has for over 100 years and controls the governments of Britain and France and Germany and in fact of damn near all of Europe and has with the U.S. and Britain and Britain created ISIS aka AL CIADA and all the offshoots of the these demonic gangs and created the fake war on terror , when in fact the terrorists are the zionists themselves.

    The Saker said what did they have to gain , well what did the zionists have to gain by murdering 3000 Americans on 911, which every thinking American knows that Israel and the zionist controlled deep state did, they terrorized the American people just as they terrorize the people of Palestine and Iraq and Syria and Yemen and Libya , this is what the satanic zionists do they wreck and kill and terrorize who ever they damn please for their goal of a zionist NWO.

    Read The Protocols of Zion and see what a cabal of satanists and murderers the zionists are.

    • Agree: Johnnie Walker Read
  131. @Erebus

    That’s an interesting theory he’s got.

    Let me add a thought to that theory: Israel is apparently doing two things: (1) Trying to turn the Syrian people (including the Syrian military) against Putin/Russia; and (2) Trying to make Putin look weak and ineffective to the Russian people and thereby weaken him politically.

    For one thing, Israel is publicly “bragging” about all the attacks it’s made on Syria. Why brag about it? Only to rub salt in Syrian wounds I would say.

    Also I wasn’t aware of Assad’s muted reaction to the incident.

    Anyway, Putin claims to be there to protect Syrian sovereignty, but what he stopped the terrorist proxies from doing, he’s allowing their masters to do., so what’s the point?

    In light of this it seems very plausible to me that the Syrian army is by now exasperated with Putin’s pathological ambivalence on Syria, and this might have been a factor in the Syrian S-200 operator’s decision to fire on the Israeli jets even though the IL-20 was nearby.

    I have to be honest and say I now better appreciate Andrei Martyanov’s implication of Syrian “responsibility” for the outcome and give him more credit, but I still believe that it was Israel’s intent to bring down the IL-20.

    Who knows, maybe Israel was even doing an “experiment” to see how disillusioned the Syrian military is becoming with Russia; i.e., the more disillusioned, the more likely to fire a missile.

    So I would have to modify my bank robbery analogy by adding that before the cop in the bank shoots at me, he notices that the customer standing behind me is someone he can’t stand for some reason (unrelated to the bank robbery), so he is more inclined to not worry about missing me and hitting him instead).

    • Replies: @The scalpel
  132. “…why in the world has nobody considered that the israelis might have truly screwed-up?…”

    for arguments sake, let’s say israel did screw the pooch. does that absolve them from responsibility, or repercussion? were i putin, israel would lose a city for each servicemember, and several cities for the plane, but, then again, no one has ever said i was a nice guy.

    now, back to the salient question: israel seems predestined to either screwing the pooch on a regular basis, or of being engaged in nefarious, extra-judicial, martial pursuits. the old testament is replete with examples of jewish “screw ups”; every disagreement with fellow denizens of the desert results in said fellow denizens being summarily exterminated (mostly on god’s orders, or with god’s assistance.)

    seems to me, given their history, the possibility of so many israeli screw ups is statistically incongruous.

  133. This is an example of Saker at his worst. He embraces a false dichotomy. It is possible to be both anti-Zionist and to understand that Putin and Russia continue to proceed cautiously and wisely.

    • Agree: Iris
  134. @anarchyst

    Cleaning the swamp should involve getting rid of ALL dual-nationality types. There is absolutely NO EXCUSE for anyone having dual loyalties in MY country.

    FWIW, the Australian Constitution disallows dual nationals from parliament:

    Disqualification

    Any person who:

    (i) is under any acknowledgment of allegiance, obedience, or adherence to a foreign power, or is a subject or a citizen or entitled to the rights or privileges of a subject or a citizen of a foreign power; or

    shall be incapable of being chosen or of sitting as a senator or a member of the House of Representatives.

    http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/legis/cth/consol_act/coaca430/s44.html

    Perhaps you could start a movement to have your constitution amended.

    • Replies: @unseated
    , @anarchyst
  135. Putin has defeated the US Empire in Syria.

    It is not surprizing that some weasel from a backwater of the Empire would seek to ingratiate himself with his masters by raining on Putin’s parade.

    Putin will keep his eyes on the prize

  136. Iris says:
    @Iris

    More chutzpah from the Superior Race, the Masters of the “Free World”:

    ‘We didn’t hide behind any aircraft’: Israel insists its jets not to blame for downing Russian Il-20″

    https://www.rt.com/news/439163-israel-idf-russia-plane/

  137. annamaria says:
    @anon

    “Israel intended to use Syrian technical limitations as a means to punish Russia for protecting Syria.”
    – Agree. This explanation fits the profile of the “most victimized’ and the “most moral.”

  138. annamaria says:
    @Realist

    Agree. The “exceptional” supremacists of theocratic persuasion have become the most dangerous pest for the humanity at large.

  139. annamaria says:
    @J

    “One minute is a lot of time!”
    – Tell this to your child (if the child is still alive) next time your family has a major problem.

  140. annamaria says:
    @Kiza

    “The history of A.D. era is in good part a history of goyim killing each other for the profit of the Jews and now is the crescendo with nuclear weapons.”
    – This is a good addition to the annals of the numerous holo-biz museums worldwide.

  141. SNAFU, right! It can be seen from afar..
    As with the Liberty, same kind of FUBAR..

  142. annamaria says:
    @The Scalpel

    “Before anything else, Israel’s actions were (and have been) clear violations of international law and arguably war crimes. … Israel was the proximate cause of the events and their outcome. They bear almost full responsibility for the event.”
    – Agree.

  143. @Miggle

    Hmm. A highly intelligent reply from a Cohen. Thank you.

    Thank you Miggle for your kind response. Keep your faith strong in HOPE, as there is a Power greater than Evil.

    Here is something that will interest you and it is 6 hours ago news:

    Blame for Russian Aircraft Crash Fully Rests with Tel Aviv: Moscow

    Moscow said on Sunday that the Israeli Air Force misled the Russian side by providing wrong information about the area of the planned air strikes in Syria, blaming Tel Aviv for the downing of Russian Il-20 military aircraft in Latakia on September 17.

    “During the negotiations via the deconfliction channel, the representative of the Israeli Air Force Command reported that the targets assigned to the Israeli aircraft are located in Northern Syria … As you can see on the map, the Israeli jets delivered strikes in Latakia which is a western province of the country — and not in the north of the Syrian Arab Republic. The city of Latakia is located on the western coast. The misleading information provided by the Israeli officer about the area of strikes did not allow the Russian Il-20 airplane to move timely to a safe area,” Konashenkov said.

    He further debunked claims by the Israeli military that their jets had already been within ‘Israeli airspace’ when the Syrian Army launched the missiles that hit the Russian plane, saying that F-16s left the area only 10 minutes after receiving the information on the downing.

    http://english.almanar.com.lb/586577

  144. annamaria says:
    @J

    One more time for J: “Before anything else, Israel’s actions were (and have been) clear violations of international law.”

    Do you understand the above statement? Israel has been violating the airspace of Syria and Lebanon and has been bombing the sovereign state of Syria in violation of international law.
    Enough already of your weasely explanations.

    The Jewish State has no morals and it does not recognize the laws of human decency, whether written or unwritten. The Russians are dealing with the whining parasite and predator.

    • Agree: Herald
  145. Iris says:
    @Miro23

    “Putin has gone quiet.”

    Respectfully, President Putin only acted objectively:
    - The Israelis were allowed to publicly give their version of events and defend themselves.
    - Conclusions on the military events were then drawn up by the competent party, the Russian MoD.

    Now that the military aspect has been settled, political decisions can be made accordingly by the Russian Presidency.

    This is how International Law should operate, based on cold investigation and public exchange of information, not a la Skripal, White Helmet, Polonium-210, MH-17 plane, 9/11 , etc…

  146. annamaria says:
    @Erebus

    Picture the zionized US military, Erebus… http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/fighting-israels-wars/
    “Fighting Israel’s War. How the United States military has become Zionized, by PHILIP GIRALDI”
    — Americans have been captured by the voracious parasite

    • Replies: @foolisholdman
  147. Hey Orlov,
    How about a Snafu/FUBAR/clusterfuck where the right people die.

    Any volunteers? Anyone?
    Bueller?

  148. If Putin retaliates against Israel, he will find himself confronting America directly.

    So instead he must make a virtue of necessity…

    • Agree: Mike P
  149. annamaria says:
    @Erebus

    “Meanwhile, the US’ belligerence is growing by the hour, and not only against Russia. The US is giving every indication that it’s going after China’s economy in a very serious way. … 4.5 yrs on from Maidan/Crimea, and 3 yrs on from going live in Syria, my spidey-sense is tingling. It’s saying that it’s been too long since we’ve seen a decisive move from Russia, while threats are being piled like sandbags around her.”

    – Agree, the spectacle is hard to observe. On the other hand, the US/EU and EU are facing diffucult national problems that are going to get only more serious, whereas Russia still exists — despite the zionists & war profiteers’ efforts. Pushing China closer to the Russian Federation is another “stroke of genius” by the “deciding” zionists & war profiteers.

    There also has been a steady unraveling of the stinky mechanisms of profiteering from within the US/EU/EU governments; see the $21 trillion “lost” by the US government and see AIPAC’s harmful activities from within the US government. The main propaganda instrument, MSM, is losing its efficiency. The educational system, the crumbling infrastructure, the health non-care system, the poor state of maintaining the nuclear stations, the ongoing assault of the Jewish Power on the freedom of information, the triumph of Monsanto and Oilmen, the lawless financial sector — the list is long.
    The “deciders” need and want war. They do not care about the international law in the least. They care not about the people and planet but only about today baseline. And they want Russia’s resources, by any means.

    The Russian Federation wants to survive as a nation and a unique culture. Russians are not suicidal. Unfortunately, the only way to ameliorate the situation is to eliminate physically a dozen or two “deciders” families — beginning with the leading zionists and mega warprofiteers. These psychopaths are unredeemable. The only hope is some humongous natural disaster.

  150. Mike P says:

    We should focus more on the overall situation than on the technical details of this event. The calls for Russian retaliation against Israel, while emotionally relatable, ignore one crucial aspect – any direct Russian attack on Israel, whether retaliatory or not, will inevitably drag in FUKUS on Israel’s side. Thus, if Putins wants to avoid this sort of conflagration, he can’t fight with Israel. This is the reason for his deals with the devil (aka Satanyahoo) – give the Israelis free reign for going after Iran, as long as they abstain from engaging Russian troops directly. By and large, Israel has abided by this agreement – until now.

    In this situation, what options does Putin have to punish Israel, while still abstaining from a direct hit? Suspend their right to go after Iran by setting up no-fly zones, ostensibly for “protecting Russian troops.” I’m sure the Iranians will make the most of this opportunity to further strengthen Hezbollah and their own position in Syria.

    Why are the Israelis acting this way? It is clear that they are very, very nervous about the way things have been going. Despite all their efforts, the Iranian military and Hezbollah are still there and only growing stronger. Apparently, they feel that time is working against them and that they cannot look on any longer. Therefore, they are trying now to escalate the conflict, while hiding behind FUKUS and their (other) terrorist stooges.

    If Russian intelligence communications are to be believed, then the terrorist puppets in Idlib had been preparing for another staged gas attack in Idlib, or rather they had already staged and filmed it, and they were simply waiting for the most opportune time to publish their stunt. At the same time, the U.S. were proclaiming that a chemical attack was imminent, and that it would be considered a casus belli. The Russians did their best to defuse this situation first by leaking their intelligence about the staging of the attacks; and when that did not do the trick, by putting the entire Idlib operation on hold via the agreement with Turkey.

    Having been foiled yet again and left without a pretext for stepping up the war, Israel then resorted to creating this hastily improvised IL20 incident. (It is noticeable, however, that a French war ship was also on the scene, indicating that this was indeed coordinated with other governments beforehand.)

    Even though the provocation is severe, the strategic situation has not changed – Russia and Syria are winning, and the only way for Israel to change this is to escalate the war. It is clear that they want to provoke Russia into shooting from the hip and thus allow herself to be blamed for such an escalation. It is also clear that Israel again intends to fight the war to the last American (and European) soldier.

    We in the West, who would again be the cannon fodder for such insanity, once more owe a debt of gratitude to Putin’s statesmanship and levelheadedness. It is also noteworthy that Trump not only abstained from fanning the flames, but also soon after the event stated that the “Iraq and Afghanistan wars were the worst single mistake ever made in the history of our country.” THIS is the real Trump, and THIS is why the Zio-infested U.S. deep state is trying so hard to overthrow him. Putin and Trump are trying to preserve peace, while Israel is pushing for war – as is anyone who is calling for Putin to “man up” and shoot some Israeli planes out of the sky or similar.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  151. The Soviets didn’t go to war with the U.S. over Syria and Israel 50 years ago, and I don’t think the Russians will now. Israel is pretty much confined to beating up on defenseless Palestinians and invading the mostly undefended airspace of its immediate neighbors. Russia seems to have the situation in Syria under control, and attacking Israel would be the quickest way to have a war with the U.S., which Putin says he doesn’t want.

    One aircraft and its crew is apparently a price the Russians are willing to pay in a proxy war with the U.S.

    • Replies: @Herald
  152. annamaria says:
    @paulllll

    “I’d like to see Putin grow a spine and Israel grow a conscience.”
    – Putin’s spine looks OK. As for the Jewish State having “conscience” — not possible.
    The theocratic state grew from the ideas of ethnic supremacy; it started as a terrorist state and it will remain a blot on western civilization until the Jewish Community at large tries to find the conscience and stops supporting and protecting the genocidal plan Eretz Israel in the Middle East.

  153. Despite Israeli version, Kremlin blames IAF for plane downing

    In Moscow press briefing, Russian Defense Ministry spokesman presents country’s findings on Syria’s downing of Russian reconnaissance plane during attempt to repel IAF strike on Latakia; ‘F-16 pilots used a Russian aircraft as a shield against the Syrian air defenses.’

    Ynet|Published: 09.23.18 , 11:59

    According to the report, the IAF deceived the Russians by presenting false information regarding the area in which the strike in Latakia was planned on September 17 which prevented the Russian plane from leaving the danger zone.

    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5356514,00.html

  154. Avery says:

    {… Unless you belong to the type of folks who believe that the Israelis are exceptionally crafty, smart and quasi infallible…}

    Part of the myth of Israel’s alleged infallibility is Israel itself and its propaganda arms here in US, particularly Hollywood. Israel has screwed up plenty, but we don’t hear about them. We only hear about the successes. From my memory, in no particular order:

    1. The 1973 Yom Kippur war. The “legendary” (yeah, right) Mossad completely missed the Egyptian preparations for crossing the Suez. Egyptians, with the expert supervision of Soviets, completely fooled the Israelis into believing the Egyptians were simply doing some training. The surprise was complete. And Israel, if not for massive material support airlifted from US, would most likely have lost, and/or resorted to nukes – with unpredictable consequences.

    2. The war with Hezbollah. Again, the “infallible” Israeli intelligence completely missed the well camouflaged, dug-in Hezbollah strong-points, and the Israeli armored units and troops got a nasty and bloody surprise.

    3. Don’t remember the year, but Mossad ran an elaborate operation, I think in Norway, to identify and assassinate a Palestinian “terrorist” big-wig. They killed a man, who turned out the be an innocent Arab waiter with a local wife.

    4. Israeli AF forced down a business jet that was supposedly flying a delegation of PLO senior operatives. Turned out their intelligence was faulty: there were no PLO: just a group of businessmen with no connection to PLO or Palestinians.

    5. In 1997 Mossad’s botched attempt to assassinate Hamas leader Khalid Mishal in Amman. The assassins were captured, and furious King Hussein forced Israel to give them the anti-dote to the poison that was administered to Mishal by the agents. Mishal lived. Israel ate dirt.

    6. The Israeli “art” students (agents) who were detected and identified by FBI in US. The story was buried, but the incompetence of whoever came up with the idea and ran it was exposed.

    There are a lot more, but don’t have the inclination to dig them up just now.

    So, yeah, it is quite plausible that Israel screwed up in the case of Il-20.
    It is also possible that Israelis were too clever by half: maybe they did it deliberately, but didn’t expect Russians to figure it out.

    And for context, and to remind people: when Turks shot down the Su-24, they proudly boasted about it. Never claimed it to be a mistake. Putin was similarly criticized and goaded to act at that time. But Putin kept his eye on the Big Prize, and, at the very least, today has neutered Turkey as far as Syria is concerned. So, in retrospect, who was right?

    And as a bonus, Putin might even succeed in creating – with irrational Sultan Erdogan’s help – an irreparable fissure in the NATO “alliance”, which would be very nice for Russia.

    • Replies: @General Koofta
  155. @Proud_Srbin

    Your last sentence sounded like the demonic preacher in San Antonio TX. Mr. Hagee!

  156. @The Scalpel

    What most people have done is swallowed the “IDF did it” koolaid. There were missiles from another source flying at the same time. If Putin had put the blame where it truly belongs, then NATO would have invoked Article 5 and WW3 would have been on. The AAA axis actually offered Putin a neat way out of the trap that had been set. So Russia accepted the ‘lie’ that anti aircraft fire did the damage. Thank the “stupid Israel’s” for getting us out of a tight spot. ‘Nuff said.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  157. Iris says:

    The psychopathic NeoCons go on unabated:

    Merely one day after the abject terror attack that killed children and women in Iran’s Ahwaz province, 9/11 criminal Rudy Giuliani and Zio operative is stirring up a “Iran Uprising Summit”, declaring this country’s state will be brought down when socio-economic conditions are ripe.

    https://www.rt.com/usa/439146-iran-uprising-summit-revolution/

  158. @Andrei Martyanov

    So by your own admission, none of those systems worked? It seems then that the Russians are screwed! If their systems were not up to prevent the shooting down of their own plane, then, all their ‘marvelous’ weapons suck, literally.

  159. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘Do you want me to prove…by me merely introducing a simple tactical-technical parameter which defines tactical reality in any radar systems…against the background of old S-200 AD complex…’

    Yes…Andrei..I will take you up on your offer to ‘prove’ to us the ‘technical parameters’ that ALLOW THE S200 AND IL20 TO DEFY THE LAWS OF PHYSICS…

    You see friends, Saker and especially Martyanov are full of crapola…

    It is IMPOSSIBLE for an S200 which flies at 2.5 kilometers per second and would cover 100 km in just 40 seconds…to have hit an airplane that continued flying for another ~5 minutes after that close call with the flight of Israeli F16s…

    Here is the infographic map released by the Russian MoD…

    The flight path of the F16s is recorded with the dashed blue line…the flight of the Ilyushin Il20 spy plane is recorded in the solid red line…[that from the MoD]

    I have circled the close encounter point in yellow, with a yellow arrow pointing to it…that is the point where the F16s are supposed to have ‘hidden’ behind the radar reflection of the much bigger Ilyushin, and is the ONLYpoint at which this could possibly occur…

    But the Ilyushin somehow manages to fly north for another 40 km…and even make a 90 degree east turn to come in to land at Hmeimim…a total flight time of around FIVE MINUTES…

    BUT the S200 cannot fly for FIVE MINUTES…it is one of the fastest SAM rockets in the world, with a flight speed of 2.5 kilometers per second and would cover 100 kilometers in JUST 40 SECONDS…

    Its maximum flight time is 150 SECONDS [2.5 MINUTES]…IN WHICH TIME IT WOULD COVER ITS MAXIMUM DISTANCE OF 375 KM…

    PLEASE TELL US HOW THIS IS POSSIBLE ANDREI…?

    The specs of the turboprop IL20 are here…

    It has a cruise speed of about ~600 km/hr, which is 10 km/minute…that’s at its cruise altitude of 8,000 meters…the MoD reported that the airplane was hit while flying at 5,000 m and on its descent to land at Hmeimim…

    The MoD map clearly shows that the Ilyushin flew north for 40 km after that ‘close encounter’ with the F16s…and then made another right 90 degree turn back toward the Syria coast on its final descent back into Hmeimim…

    Only after making that turn to final was the airplane hit…

    So we have the airplane flying for FIVE MINUTES AFTER THAT SUPPOSED ‘RADAR MASKING’…?

    And the S200 which can cover 300 km in TWO MINUTES FLAT was doing what exactly for those missing THREE MINUTES…?

    It was maybe hovering in midair with its engine shut off…just waiting for the Ilyushin to slowly make its way to the point 40 km from the ‘radar masking’..before it decided to turn its engine back on and then come and hit the Ilyushin…?

    It is a matter of simple flight physics…the official story is IMPOSSIBLE…

    If an s200 was even launched, it would have been from a range of probably 100 km… so it would have got to the Ilyushin in under a minute from that close encounter point…

    The Ilyushin in that one minute would have been able to fly for maybe 10 km AT MOST…and would have come down where I have place the red arrow on the map…

    Now I have seen many commenters here ridiculing Saker and Martyanov and that is completely warranted…Saker has no technical credentials whatsoever, in either physics or mathematics…he has made that abundantly clear over the course of hundreds of thousands of words of fluff…

    Martyanov at least has a bona fide military education, but he also does not seem to think much about basic physics…he has some explaining to do here as to why he is pushing the ‘official’ story…

    Folks…the fact of the matter is that ‘official’ information is often a blatant lie…we all know that…for those who have some relevant expertise in technical matters such as flight physics, it is not so easy to pull the wool over our eyes…

    Remember when Turkey shot down that Russian Su24 ground attack jet in November 2015…?…there was a lot of discussion at the time as to the claim from the Turkish side about the Sukhoi flying through Turkish airspace for 17 seconds…

    At the time PCR picked up on the debate, it revolved around the physical possibility of the Sukhoi flying that slow as to remain in Turkish airspace for so long, while covering a very short distance…the debate among the laypeople revolved around the aerodynamic ‘stall’ speed of the Sukhoi…ie the minimum flying speed of the airplane…

    I mentioned to PCR that the debate was nonsensical and explained a couple of pertinent basics of the flight physics involved…PCR encouraged me to expand that into an article, which he graciously published on his website…

    We have a similar situation here…it is important to figure out what is and what is not physically possible…

    Martyyanov especially, and of course Saker, are trying to tell us here that it was all a mistake as Putin said…that the ‘old’ S200 took down a state of the art electronic warfare airplane, with 15 very highly trained specialists on board…a HUGE LOSS…

    Now I will say here that Putin has a good reason to take this action and not reveal what actually happened…and I will get to that in a minute…

    But let us first consider some peripheral facts surrounding this entire incident…it is probable that the downed ‘Il20′ was in fact the latest, modernized iteration of this electronic intelligence aircraft, the Il22PP, which entered into service two years ago…

    This is in keeping with the MoD’s stated practice of subjecting Russia’s latest and most sophisticated weapons systems to actual combat conditions in Syria…even Putin has said that much has been learned,both good and bad, in Syria, and that fixing these deficiencies is possible only due to the opportunity to deploy these systems in Syria…

    Now if we assume that this was in fact that state of the art Il22PP [we are speculating here, but it is a solid assumption]…then one must ask how careful the entire Russian contingent in Syria would be with such a valuable asset…?

    How is it possible that while this airplane is in the air that ‘Syrian’ air defense commanders are shooting willy-nilly at a chunk of airspace where at this very moment this extremely valuable aircraft is flying…?

    How stupid does this sound on its face…?

    Now we have already proved that the ‘radar masking’ story is physically impossible, due to the respective flight speeds of the Ilyushin turboprop and the S200 rocket…

    That means that the S200 would have to have been launched when THERE WAS NO RADAR MASKING…ie the Ilyushin would have been very close to the point where it was shot down…which is 40 km away from the ‘close encounter’ site…

    So now we are supposed to believe that the Syrian air defense crews, which somehow are acting independently while supposedly ‘integrated’ with the Russian air defense staff…that they have now targeted the Ilyushin WHILE IT IS FLYING ALONE WITH NOTHING NEARBY…?

    Again, I ask Martyanov here to explain this…especially in light of his dismissive comment to others objecting here, and citing his vast knowledge of radar systems…

    How is it possible that this Ilyushin was targeted by an S200 when it was nowhere near those F16s at that moment…as the laws of physics require…?

    Of course I realize that he cannot rebut these questions in any way shape or form…he is caught again with his pants down…

    Now let us consider some more relevant facts on that night…the Russian MoD stated clearly two additional piece of information…

    1…the French frigate Auvergne was nearby the Ilyushin flight, as depicted on the map, and was in fact recorded firing missiles…

    2…British jets were also in the air, with their transponders turned on…making it possible to track them even with civilian ATC radar…

    Now we also know that a number of Russian ships were in that area at the time, and still are…and are in fact this entire week conducting live fire drills…more on that in a moment…

    Those ships also have sophisticated radar and also infrared sensors which picked up the missile firing from the French ship…

    Besides that we have the Beriev A50U AWACS aircraft in Syria..and it is safe to assume that they would have been in the air at the time of the Ilyushin flight…

    At the same time, we also know that the US is flying the high altitude U2 spy plane out of Akrotiri…

    So there is a lot of cat and mouse going on between Nato and Russia in the area…all the more reason to seriously doubt that a Syrian S200 would shoot down such an important flight as the Ilyushin…we notice also the flight path of the Ilyushin…it first flew a circuit over Idlib, then, instead of coming in to land directly at Hmeimim, the airplane continued out over the Med for about 40 km off the coast of Syria, well outside the Syrian territorial airspace…why…?

    Perhaps because the Ilyushin might have been gathering data and perhaps engaging in electronic interference of those Nato ships and aircraft in the area…?

    We do not know…but if it was doing something like that, the flight would have had the utmost security attached to it…it would be unthinkable for a Syrian SAM to take a shot at that airplane…

    So why the ruse on the part of Putin and the Russians…?

    Let’s first examine who had the opportunity to down that Ilyushin…the French ship firing missiles [what kind of missiles surface to air...?...the frigate is equipped with very capable Aster SAMs...]

    And also the British aircraft in the air at the time and flying out of Akrotiri…there are 9 Eurofighter Typhoons there, equipped with long range air to air AIM120 radar guided missiles…and also 10 Tornados equipped with shorter range heat seeking AIM9x…

    Now since we know already that the only way an S200 could have shot down the Ilyushin would be if it fired practically intentionally at a high value friendly aircraft flying with no enemy aircraft nearby…it would seem at least as probable that the missile that brought down the Ilyushin could have been fired by a French ship or a British airplane…

    [The Israeli jets could not have fired at the Ilyushin, since they were flying in the opposite direction at the time the airplane was hit...and it is impossible to aim a missile at a target behind your airplane...]

    At this point, having made some logical physical observations and built up a situational picture of what and who was there at the time, it seems much more likely that the French or British brought down the Ilyushin…with the Israelis playing a supporting role to cause confusion and ‘fog of war’…

    Now we examine another clue…this one coming just 24 hours after the Ilyushin was shot down…namely the massive Russian live fire naval exercises in the exact area of the Med where all the action took place…here is a look at the NOTAM published by the Cyprus Civil Aviation Authority…

    Is this air exclusion zone the Russians have enacted in a semi-ring around the RAF Akrotiri air base a clue…?

    I leave it to readers to make their own judgements…

    Now let us consider the question of why Putin is not saying anything about possible British or French involvement in the shooting down of the valuable Ilyushin electronic warfare aircraft…

    First…what purpose would it serve to now come out and accuse two Nato countries of an act of war…?

    Is not this kind of escalation exactly what Nato is looking to provoke in Syria…?

    Is Putin supposed to now declare war on Nato…?

    Or does it make more sense to blame Israel because Israel is the only party that can be proved to have been doing something illegal at the time…ie bombing a sovereign country [an illegal act of aggression]…and at the same time trampling all the protocol and agreements in place between Russia and Israel on the matter of Israeli operations against ‘Iranian’ forces in Syria…?

    We must remember here that Putin is interested in only one thing in Syria…that is to defeat the West’s regime change project, by defeating their terrorist proxies on the ground…

    The West on the other hand is trying to do everything possible to provoke Russia into a military response, that would then lead to escalation and a possible shooting war…

    Let us recall that the US twice launched cruise missile strikes against Syria in the last year…in the last attack back in April, the French and British also participated…no response came from Russia…

    In 2015, Turkey shot down a Russian jet…so how much of a stretch is it to think that Britain and France [together with Israel playing a supporting role] decided to shoot down the Russian spy plane…?

    Now Russia holding its fire makes perfect sense and is the smart thing to do, in spite of how bad these provocations look…for one thing Russia even turning on its air defense systems to shoot down US and Nato or Israeli missiles would give the opponent valuable information about how the Russian AD systems operate…this is very valuable tactical information…

    Russia is better served not firing its systems unnecessarily…because when it does, the enemy will have little chance to calculate an escape…

    As things stand now…no one can defend Israel’s actions on that night…Israel realizes that Russia is very angry and Israel must now alter its behavior as to bombing Syria…Russia will also take steps to increase the security of all Russian assets in Syria…there will not be a repeat performance of this carefully planned ambush of the Ilyushin…

    As for retribution for whoever it was that pulled the trigger on that Ilyushin…I think Putin realizes that revenge is a dish best served cold…two can play the game of ‘accidents’ happening…

    Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical.

    No ruler should put troops into the field merely to gratify his own spleen; no general should fight a battle simply out of pique.

    If it is to your advantage, make a forward move; if not, stay where you are.

    Anger may in time change to gladness; vexation may be succeeded by content.

    But a kingdom that has once been destroyed can never come again into being; nor can the dead ever be brought back to life.

    Hence the enlightened ruler is heedful, and the good general full of caution. This is the way to keep a country at peace and an army intact.

    –Sun Tzu

    Bottom line as to what really happened…the website strategic-culture.org, which is published in English by the Russian Academy of Social Sciences ran an editorial two days ago…

    ‘An investigation is underway to establish what exactly happened when the Ilyushin IL-20 reconnaissance plane was shot down on Monday night, as it was coming into land at the Russian airbase at Hmeimim in northwest Syria. The plane was lost some 20 kms off the Syrian coast, with all 15 service onboard killed.

    There appears to have been an accidental shoot-down by Syrian air defenses using an outdated Soviet-made S-200 system.’

    So this semi-official organ of Russian media is not so sure as our two resident ‘experts’ here…and any comments that question their ‘authority’ are unceremoniously dismissed…

    Looking forward to hearing back from Martyanov on this…

  160. peterAUS says:
    @Johnnie Walker Read

    Bottom line is Syria will never be the united, sovereign nation it was before its planned destruction was started.

    Yup.
    That’s when the actual shooting stops. Don’t see it coming next month. Next year perhaps? Say….December? Or the year after…..
    And could restart and a moment’s notice.

    Mission accomplished, the message sent.

    Next target…..

    • Replies: @JamesinNM
  161. @Andrei Martyanov

    Well, all that knowledge you posture, seems to fail in the Russian military. Why not go and teach in their academies then? May be then they will grow some and confront the bullies who keep shooting down their planes. As of now, the Talmudists keep doing what they want because like it or not, they get away with doing it. Once you show the willingness to back up what you say, then the rest of the world will ‘know’ that you mean what you say. Did not the Russian military stated that “reserve the right to respond’ according to Russian military statement. Well, then… respond, and we can see what are you made up of. Or do a Putin, and turn the other cheek.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  162. windwaves says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I thought you were a jew spy !?
    Whatever I agree with AIPAC and yes, there is not debate about the fact that jew country owns us.

  163. Agent76 says:

    NOVEMBER 18, 2012 Israel and the U.S. CREATED Hamas, Hezbollah and Al Qaeda

    Creating the Enemies We Now Fight Against. We’ve extensively documented that the U.S. and Israel created Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups in an attempt to fight other enemies.

    http://investmentwatchblog.com/israel-and-the-u-s-created-hamas-hezbollah-and-al-qaeda/

  164. Zogby says:

    I’m not completely convinced about the Russian MoD’s interpretation of events as one of the F16s hiding behind the I-20. I think they stretched that part up because of their anger and embarrassment. The bottom line is that Russia has itself to blame because…
    - Russia and Syria use different IFF systems “and Israel knows”. It is reckless for them to have uncoordinated IFF with Syrian air-defense and even more reckless to have divulged this to Israel. If fact, even assuming Syria had its own S-400 instead of S-200, it would still be totally reckless for them not to coordinate IFF.
    - Russia did not fire its S-400 to shoot down the F-16s. Even after they knew the I-20 was down, 20 minutes after – they politely asked the F-16s to vacate, which they only did 13 minutes later.

    This is a wake-up call that Russia is pursuing an untenable policy in Syria by trying to be friends with opposing sides of a war and having its armed forces in the middle, while prohibiting them from fully using their weapons to defend themselves. Just as they portray Israel as hiding behind Russian aircraft, Hezbullah can be portrayed as hiding behind the nearby Russian airbase so that Israel gets in trouble trying to attack there. If Russia declares a no-fly-zone around its base that’s incentive for Iran and/or Hezbullah to put its bases there.

    Russia needs to either get out of Syria or choose sides and stick with its allies.

  165. Agent76 says:

    Putin put a target on himself and his country with this very action.

    Jun 8, 2018 Putin hints at end of dollar system

    Direct Line 2018 Vladimir Putin has held his 16th Direct Line Q&A on June 7th.

  166. J says: • Website
    @Bill65

    What right? The right of self defense. The establishment of Iranian bases in Syria is a mortal danger for us, the secret Syrian nuclear reactor was a potential catastrophe for everybody. Technically we have been in war with Syria for the last seventy years.

    • Replies: @Jeff Davis
    , @Shahna
  167. Herald says:
    @OilcanFloyd

    What happened 50 years ago has little bearing on today.

    Russia’s blinkered present position in Syria makes little sense and is unsustainable. Basically it seems to be saying that it will fight Syria’s enemies when they are the western/Israeli proxy armies but it will not defend Syrian airspace against attacks which emanate from the very same sources. This naked air aggression, it seems, is approved by agreements with Israel and perhaps also some others. We have now seen the results of this approach and it has meant the needless Russian deaths, both in the air and on the ground.

    The defenders of the status quo tell us that Russia won’t defend Syrian airspace, as this might lead to WW3. The same could be much more justifiably said about NATO/Israel and their attacks on Syria, but magically the aggressors have been absolved from this responsibility, as it is not their concern. Strangely, only Russia has the duty of preventing global war, so it must always turn the other cheek, no matter the provocation. If Russia continues on this path, it is finished and may as well surrender right now.

  168. Moi says:
    @J

    Actually, it’s Putin who’s a eff-up and/or doormat for Netanyahoo.

  169. peterAUS says:
    @Herald

    If Russia continues on this path, it is finished and may as well surrender right now.

    Not quite.

    I’d say:
    If Russia continues on this path the regime in Kremlin, and people around it, will keep their positions of power and wealth. Very good lives in the current paradigm.

    Price for that, in Syria only, is more than acceptable. A plane (with crew/pilot) here and there, a General or a soldier every now and then, a team of contractors/mercs..etc….etc…
    Cannon fodder. Not people in palaces.

    Or Donbass.
    Or Russia itself.

    Or anywhere……

  170. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @in the middle

    “the Russian military stated that [they] “reserve the right to respond’

    Maybe they meant “reserve” in the same sense as Remey Martin means reserve. They will use it in 20 years or so… LOL

  171. @Mr M.

    I do believe it was a deliberate attempt by Israel to get a Russian plane shot down.

    After reading the MoD briefing notes, it is more likely that it was another example of Israeli arrogance and immaturity that will have consequences Israel will find most unpleasant.

    The biggest problem Israel and the Zionist Socialist USA faces when it comes to destroying Syria for the sake of making Israel greater again, is Russia. So long as Russia is allied with Syria the western client states of Israel can’t invade and destroy this hated enemy of Jews.

    The biggest problem Israel and the Neocons face is their own delusion that they have the right and the power to decide that they have any options regarding Syria. The world does not need Israel.

    Likewise, Russia can’t attack Israel for what it does in Syria, because that would bring down the whole western world in retaliation and start off WWIII before the time is right.

    Russia can draw lines in the sand that represent Russian self-interest as well as the interests of other nations Russia deems important to the success of its Syria project. Russia can attack Israel when it crosses one of these lines. Allowing Iran to build a facility in Latakia was one of these lines, and Israel crossed it, stupidly I might add.

    No, I think this was a poorly planned and clumsy attempt at creating a false flag attack in the form of luring Syria into shooting down a Russia plane in an attempt to cause a diplomatic crisis between Syria and Russia that would end with Russia leaving Syria to be destroyed the Israel and its client states of the US/UK and the rest of the bullied Nato states.

    It merely another example of the sort of immature provocations Israel engages in on a daily basis. Remember, they are the chosen people and they can do whatever they want.

    It most likely failed because someone did not get informed and that someone had the brain power required to grab the phone and tell the Russians at the last minute because they saw that chances of the plan backfiring was too great to even think about it.

    What failed was not a false-flag attack, but rather a long-standing practice of treating Russia as a second class nation.

    Sometimes you have to draw a clear boundary. After watching the MoD briefing (excerpts), it is clear that Russia has been extremely accommodating to Israel’s quasi-legitimate interests. In return, an adult nation would honor Russia’s decision to allow Iranians to build a factory near to its airport.

    Think of the consequences. The key to winning this conflict means the foreign nationals must feel safe inside the borders of Syria. It is no excuse that Iran and Hezbollah have challenged Israel militarily. Israel has challenged these countries militarily, too. For Russia to allow any nation to dictate to Syria and Russia who may or may not have a presence inside Syria is to admit that Russia will not achieve the goal of full sovereignty for Syria over Syrian territory.

    Russia has already announced plans to build an automobile factory in Syria. Recall my earlier assertion that Syria will be the western terminus of the New Silk Road; the key to Syria’s full recovery will be China’s investment. Can Russia allow Israel to decide that China is not allowed to build factories wherever Syria allows it to build? The answer is obviously NO.

    Russia has drawn a line in the sand and Israel must grow up (impossible, I know for the chosen people). Unless Russia stands firm and enforces that line in the sand (i.e. Obey. The. Deconfliction. Agreement.), it will not succeed in restoring Syria’s sovereignty. Considering that Russia has stated its goal of restoring Syria’s full sovereignty over all its territory, it is clear that Russia will do whatever is necessary to achieve this goal.

    The complicating factor is that IFUKUS is willing to risk a hot war to defeat Russia in its goal. I strongly suspect that Putin will play for as much time as needed to defeat IFUKUS economically to the point where IFUKUS is militarily incapable. Keep in mind, Russia has already determined that IFUKUS is ‘agreement incapable.’

    • Replies: @Iris
    , @Mr M.
  172. Hindsight says:

    I have great respect for Mr. Saker. But this analysis makes me wonder, what has made him to come up with such a forced explanation. It’s more of an apology than an objective analysis.
    I wish he could stay objective to remain relevant.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  173. @Mike P

    “We in the West, who would again be the cannon fodder for such insanity, once more owe a debt of gratitude to Putin’s statesmanship and levelheadedness.”

    All that Vladimir Putin is doing is prolonging the inevitable, at a cost of increasing resentment among Syrian troops, his own military personnel and the Russian people, IMO. The enemy is not going to stop of their own volition; so the more he turns the other cheek the more he will be slapped. To quote Paul Craig Roberts (from his latest essay):

    “The question before President Putin and the Russian people is whether Russia can be a sovereign country independent of Washington’s control without going to war. My concern is that unless a hard Russian foot comes down quickly, the only alternatives are Russian surrender or nuclear war.”

    “It is also noteworthy that Trump not only abstained from fanning the flames, but also soon after the event stated that the “Iraq and Afghanistan wars were the worst single mistake ever made in the history of our country.” THIS is the real Trump, and THIS is why the Zio-infested U.S. deep state is trying so hard to overthrow him.”

    The real Trump is all talk. He’s a liar and a complete fraud. The real Trump had a chance to get out of Afghanistan and Syria but chose to escalate instead. The real Trump is apparently a PNAC zionist warmonger who puts the Zionist agenda first and America last. And the deep state will never try to get rid of such a loyal puppet.

    Putin and Trump are trying to preserve peace, while Israel is pushing for war – as is anyone who is calling for Putin to “man up” and shoot some Israeli planes out of the sky or similar.

    • Replies: @pyrrhus
  174. pyrrhus says:
    @Proud_Srbin

    The USA pretended that the Liberty attack didn’t happen because LBJ wanted campaign money from (((you know who)))…and of course, LBJ and Admiral McCain, who did the coverup, were two of the worst criminals ever to occupy the upper ranks of the Deep State.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  175. pyrrhus says:
    @Harold Smith

    Indeed, the case is very strong for a large protection zone around Russian forces, but Putin doesn’t like risk.

  176. Iris says:
    @James Speaks

    Excellent comment. Thank you.

    • Replies: @James Speaks
  177. Allan says:
    @nsa

    Interesting reference. It so happens that Aesop is relevant to immigration policy, too.

    The Bitch and Her Whelps

    A BITCH, ready to whelp, earnestly begged a shepherd for a place where she might litter. When her request was granted, she besought permission to rear her puppies in the same spot. The shepherd again consented. But at last the Bitch, protected by the bodyguard of her Whelps, who had now grown up and were able to defend themselves, asserted her exclusive right to the place and would not permit the shepherd to approach.

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/cla/aesop/aes262.htm

    • Replies: @annamaria
  178. EoinW says:
    @chris

    “We flew together in the war. In the Luftwaffe.”

    “No, that’s the wrong side!”

    Love the analogy, though I think a better one for the 21st century West would be when Max and the Chief discuss putting KAOS out of business. Then Max realizes: “but i’ll be out of a job!”

    • Replies: @chris
  179. Evilc says:
    @FB

    You call out the hosts as being full of crap, i call you out as being full of crap.

    You reference PCRs article of the SU 24 loss and refer to your detailed text book description on stall speed he so kindly published refering to you as an experienced pilot. however you neglected in all that repetitive text book copy to include two of the most important and obvious facts:

    1. The SU 24 is a variable wing aircraft, for those who are not aviation enthusiasts or profesionals this means a wing that can change its shape and in doing so its stall speed.

    2. Air speed rarely equals ground speed, for all those who are not aviation enthusiasts or professionals consider an airliner heading west over the atlantic and then returning. It takes longer to go west than it does east, sometimes a lot longer. this is due to prevailing winds that go from west to east (the jetstream).

    From those points you could conclude that the SU 24 was flying into wind with wings extended hunting for those juicy oil tankers taking Syrian oil to Turkey ( and then on to erm…..you know who). So it could indeed hang around for much longer than would seem natural.

    I think though the reference to Sun Szu gives the game away.

    I call you out as an armchair pilot and bull shitter

    • Replies: @FB
  180. El Dato says:
    @FB

    A very interesting take indeed.

    The french frigate seems to no longer be mentioned at all in official statements. Macron Control must have the full tapes, wonder whether these will appear at some point.

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  181. FB says:

    Look shithead…if you have an actual argument with anything I wrote in the PCR article then say so…

    Hot air is not an argument…

    • Replies: @Evilc
    , @Evilc
  182. Uncle Sam says:

    The Russian military has now conclusively established that the Israelis were responsible for this disaster. They made that conclusion based on the objective evidence. If that evidence showed something differently, they would have drawn a different conclusion. They have no convincing reason to lie about it.

    The Russians should now declare a no-fly zone over all of Syria and its territorial waters, not only for Israel but for America and NATO as well. If the Israelis repeat this act, their planes should be shot down and the air base from which they took off should be bombed and destroyed. Israel would do nothing to retaliate. It risks total destruction if it does.

    Nor would America do anything. In fact, the Russians could shoot down American aircraft and even sink American ships. The Americans will not be involved in a war with Russia. America does not get into wars with countries that have nuclear weapons and the means to deliver them to the continental United States. The only time America would use its nuclear weapons is if its homeland is attacked with nuclear weapons. That is why countries like Russia, China and North Korea need not fear America and why America will not attack them militarily.

    In other words the lives of American servicemen are not worth the destruction of the continental United States. The first principle of American foreign policy is the prevention of a nuclear war. That is what American foreign policy is based on.

  183. @Andrei Martyanov

    I admit Andrei, that I know nothing about military affairs, though as a kid, I did own one of those replica Civil War muskets that fired an ordinary cap to send a round cork ball 20′ downrange.

    Nevertheless, I want to put in my two cents in the form of a request which I would appreciate your passing on to Putin. If Russia is going to retaliate, then could they please, possibly smash that Wailing Wall in Jerusalem to smithereens. I’m not asking for murder, they could do it when no one’s there. The important thing is the elimination of that fetishized pile of rocks.

    You see, I’m a Devout Man in the tradition of the West and our noble religious texts enjoin us to refrain from idolatry, which is the greatest, the most original sin because it substitutes some banal, ordinary thing for what is or should be Divine. It causes us to look upon the lesser as somehow embodying what is ineffable and limitless. And when humans invest inanimate rubble with Divine attributes, bad things follow, such as outrage, intolerance and wars.

    Well, that’s all that’s on my wish list so when you talk to Sensei Vladimir, give him my regards. Arigato gozaimasu.

  184. annamaria says:

    “Russia ought to declare an air exclusion zone of about 100km around her forces in Syria and declare that any Israeli aircraft entering that zone, or firing a missile into it, will be immediately shot down.”
    – Agree.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  185. Mike-SMO says:

    And might I suggest that the downing of the Russian IL-20 was an intentional act by Hezbollah to “threaten” or “punish” Russia for “co-operating” with the US/EU/Iranian/Arab attempts to create a “neutral” and safe Alawite/Kurdish Syrian state thus removing the rationale for a large “military” Hezbollah presence close to the Israeli border. The terror attack on the Revolutionary Guard parade in Iran would be a fine “false flag” operation designed to further inflame the situation.

    It is probably wise to consider Hezbollah as a separate “player” from Iran. Hezbollah is an “expensive” undertaking that seems to be distorting the economy of Iran. Hezbollah may be “worried” about being shouldered aside in Syria and loosing influence in Iran.

    The recon IL-20 flies slow and “high”. Attacking aircraft come in low and at high speed. It might have been a “mistake”, but I doubt it. A “message” is more likely.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  186. annamaria says:
    @Allan

    The Jewish “BITCH” has begun making (indirectly) some inquiries in Poland.

  187. Evilc says:
    @FB

    I did, its written in 1 and 2 of my reply.
    The fact that you cant see it reinforces my point perfectly. Further at that altitude the air is not ‘hot’

    • Replies: @FB
  188. annamaria says:
    @pyrrhus

    “Putin and Trump are trying to preserve peace, while Israel is pushing for war – as is anyone who is calling for Putin to “man up” and shoot some Israeli planes out of the sky or similar.”
    – Agree. Israelis live by terrorism.

  189. Evilc says:
    @FB

    Sorry i may have jumped the gun, are you calling El Dato a shithead or god forbid me?

  190. @FB

    Thank you, sir, for your superb comment. I read and reread it several times, the only useful comment on the entire thread. I too noticed at the very beginning the Russian military announced it had detected a missle launch from the French warship, and I could not square this fact with the S200 shoot down story, but being merely a layman in military affairs I had to watch and wait for someone with knowledge and a brain to weigh in. Again, thank you. Don’t hold your breath waiting to hear from the two posers The Faker and Martyanov.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  191. @VICB3

    Yes, well as you said a war is a dark room easily entered, but full of unknown danger.
    US does not need to lose an expensive carrier and thousands of sailors to start one.
    Imo Israel will never, ever permit US to start an all-out war with Russia, as Israel is a very small country, with extremely fragile, tightly packed population – which in case of nuclear escalation would take 80%+ losses.
    Look at it this way – the core of jewish power is concentrated in big cities, especially NY and Londonistan – and Israel.
    Russia and US can absorb a more or less limited nuclear exchange – the Jews, as a people, cannot.

    In the current idiotic and useless war on Syria the Russians will lose soldiers, pilots, planes – it has no bearing on the outcome.
    The Russians and more precisely VV Putin will win this war in time, and Israel will suffer a strategic defeat ranging from minor (negotiations with Assad and polite expulsion of Hezbollah) to cataclysmic (creation of Shia crescent and fall of Iraq into Iranian sphere).

    If you prefer a comparison to WW 2 , look at it as summer 1943 – everyone with a pulse in German OKH knew that the war is lost and yet how many hundreds of thousands of russian soldiers had to die to arrive in Berlin?

  192. annamaria says:
    @Hindsight

    “….a forced explanation. It’s more of an apology than an objective analysis.”

    – What shall Saker tell you? — That zionists have zero dignity? That mega war-profiteers among “deciders” want more wars? That the US has been drowning in debt and that the US/UK financial sector would not survive without a major war? These are well-known facts.

    The Russian Federation faces an enemy that does not recognize any international laws. The only way to stop the predator is by waging a hot war against the “deciders” in the D.C., London, and Tel Aviv. That would result in a massive loss of life in Europe, the Middle East, the US, and in the Russian Federation. The predator, ZUSA, is not able to contain its predatory urges. They high-placed scoundrels begging for being destroyed. But there are also innocent people that will die during the hot war.

    The European civilization has developed many important mechanisms for protecting both the individuals and the world peace. The ZUSA, the UK and the Jewish State have decided to end the European civilization and establish a New World Order.

    It is not illogical at all that the US/Israel/EU/UK have sided with radical Islamists (ISIS, Al Qaeda and such) and with banderites (neo-Nazi). The flooding of the EU with the desperate refugees (the victims of the ongoing Wars for Israel) and opportunistic migrants from sub-Saharan Africa (welcome, extraordinary low IQ!) is tearing apart the societal fabric of the EU and makes the war-mongers and war-profiteers even less accountable to vox populi.

    What should Russians do? The more time they buy, the better the outcome for the humanity at large.

  193. hunor says:

    The Russians are all alone against a pack of satanic wolfs, and clearly
    loosing badly in the war of ” leapfrogging “. They should wave the white flag ,
    and offer some kosher matzes balls to the Izraelis . Maybe they would spare they life,
    or maybe they just let they semitic brothers the arab jihadist cut they throat publicly,
    televised by CNN. Just to teach a lesson to all the gojims.

  194. unseated says:
    @Amber Dekstris

    The Australian constitution does not prevent the likes of Michael Danby being elected.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/australia/comments/76m75f/michael_danby_reportedly_travelled_to_israel/

    While technically not a citizen of Israel, he clearly has greater allegiance to Israel than to Australia.

    • Replies: @AlreadyPublished
  195. @El Dato

    When the Russian military said they detected a missle launch from the French warship they meant every word and have the electronic intelligence to back it up.

  196. Anon[930] • Disclaimer says:

    Russia Hysteria is the new WMD of Neocons, Zionists, and Liberal Jews.

    They’ve Out-Joe-McCarthied the Russia Scare by 1000x.

    The fact that they can be such hypocrites goes to show the power they have.

  197. Che Guava says:

    Oh, the Saker.

    I would accept the Rusian account that the aeroplane was shot down because of Israeli fighter-bomber jets using it as background.

    That is begging the question of why, precisely, is Israel treating Syria as a free-fire zone?

    Why is it always OK?

    I think i make the true points more strongly in three sentences above than the Saker is making in a few-thousand-word essay.

    • Agree: utu
  198. Evilc says:
    @FB

    Just as i said, i call bullshit on you

    • Replies: @FB
  199. Arnieus says:

    Not buying it. Russian planes would not need to be there, were it not for the terrorist army created, trained and armed by the Zionist lapdog US, that invaded Syria. No missiles would have been fired were it not for repeated Israeli attacks on Syria that has made Syrian air defenses more than a little trigger happy. It is like saying a gang of bank robbers made a mistake when they ran over some kids during their getaway.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  200. anarchyst says:
    @Amber Dekstris

    “Dual citizenship” has always been outlawed in the case of U S citizenship. However, not every country is treated equally when it comes to dual citizenship.
    There used to be a time when serving in a foreign country’s military would be grounds for revocation of U S citizenship, but no more.
    In the case of Israeli citizenship of American citizens, dual citizenship is not only tolerated, but there are many American citizens serving in Israel’s armed forces.
    It doesn’t stop there…Many Israeli companies have a “special dispensation” which allows them to bypass U S customs inspections.
    The “deep state” is actually run for the benefit of Israel–not the U S A
    THAT has to stop…
    Regards

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  201. JamesinNM says:

    Today, Russian military said the Israelis intentionally used the Russian plane for cover. And don’t forget the USS Liberty. Romans 2:28-29 describe real Jews with changed heart, not a bloodline. Revelation 2:9 and 3:9 describe false Jews.

  202. annamaria says:
    @Mike-SMO

    “…the downing of the Russian IL-20 was an intentional act by Hezbollah…”
    – Is this you, Bibi?

    The zionists’ best friends are cheerleading for a terrorist organization MEC in New York City: “Giuliani Vows Regime Change At “Iran Uprising” Event” https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-09-23/rudy-giuliani-vows-regime-change-iran-uprising-event-despite-contrary
    “The speech came the same day a terror attack on a military parade took the lives of over 24 people and wounded scores more in the southwest Iranian city of Ahvaz, including children and civilians.
    – This is the music for the zionists ears. Nothing pleases them more than the news about dead children in Syria and Iran.

    The ziocons’ best friends: “The Mojahedin-e Khalq is an Iranian political–militant organization that advocates the violent overthrow of the current government in Iran. MEK is currently designated as a terrorist organization by Japan and Iraq aside from Iran, and was considered a terrorist organization by the United Kingdom and the European Union until 2008 and 2009 respectively, and by Canada and the United States until 2012.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People%27s_Mujahedin_of_Iran

    – This is the same kind of friends that the Jewish State has found among the “moderate” terrorists of ISIS and Al Qaeda and among Ukrainian neo-Nazi. … But the Shoah-biz is sacred.

  203. @anonymous

    Instead they should trust you, eh?

  204. FB says:
    @Evilc

    Like I said shithead…hot air is not an argument…maybe you didn’t understand that means your so called ‘points’ one and two are horseshit…

    Do you know the winds aloft on that day…?

    Maybe you looked in your retard eight-ball just now and it told you the winds aloft on that day in 2015…their speed, their direction, at various levels etc…?

    Which is why are you able to now fantasize crapola about them looking for ‘juicy oil tankers’…?

    Those winds you fantasize about could just as easily have been tailwinds…in which case the airplane would have had a higher speed over the ground than its airspeed…

    The variable sweep wing has nothing to do with anything…I had given a very generous estimate of lift coefficient [1.5]…are you even remotely familiar with the idea of lift coefficient…?

    The fact is that a Cl of 1.5 is quite high for a wing on a supersonic-capable aircraft like the Su24…that is more like the ‘clean’ Cl for a subsonic airplane with a straight wing [ie no sweep at all]…

    The reason is the airfoil shape of a supersonic wing…it is thin and pointy at the leading edge instead of rounded…this decreases lift coefficient…

    Obviously you are a useless shit-eater who knows absolute zilch about airplanes or flying…since one must learn the basics of what I wrote in the PCR article even to pass the written exam for a private pilot license…

    And you don’t even know how to read…an illiterate moron…literally…you say I said that at higher altitude the air is ‘hot’…please find that excerpt and post it you fucking idiot…

    Why don’t you shut the fuck up instead of ripping wet farts here…?

  205. FB says:
    @Evilc

    Why don’t you do yourself a favor and ‘call’ the mental hospital…?

  206. FB says:
    @Bombercommand

    Thanks for your kind words ‘Bomber’…glad to be of some use to the sincere folks I know are here…

  207. JamesinNM says:
    @peterAUS

    Victors and losers will be identified for all eternity at the final judgement. Those who refuse to seek and honor the truth and who try to destroy others will be judged accordingly with very high stakes, far exceeding human life and death, eternal spiritual life and death.

  208. @anarchyst

    Anarchyst, your comments regarding US citizens with dual citizenship are incorrect. There was a 1969 law that said if an American citizen took citizenship in another country his US citizenship could be revoked, but it was rarely if ever exercised. This law was abrogated about 1996. Other than the 1969 law, there has never been any prohibition of dual citizenship for US citizens. Serving in a forgien country’s military or government is grounds for revoking US citizenship, and always will be, as it is in The Constitution, however I do not know if Congress has passed any laws providing a mechanism to enforce this.

    • Replies: @Miggle
    , @anarchyst
  209. JC says:

    what gets me is that Putin knows darn well that the US neocons jew warmongers are hell-bent on attacking his country Russia and yet he befriends the zio regime who are in bed with the neocons…I wonder if he has a jew chef that may be poisoning him and keeping him dumb and dumber…he sure is not showing any spine against the worse terrorist country int ME

    • Replies: @Alligator
    , @annamaria
  210. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @From _the_S/hole Continent

    What you propose is possible, though I would say that it violates Occam’s razor

  211. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @FB

    How would it affect your calculations if, for example the IL-20 flew a good ways after it was struck by a missile. I’m am not claiming that the Russians said this, only that is an area that could be finessed to promote a certain interpretation of events one way or the other.

    • Replies: @FB
  212. @Andrei Martyanov

    Felix just owned you, my prolix friend.

  213. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @FB

    To expand on my last question, for example, is it possible that the S200 fired on the F16s before they arrived at their closest contact with the IL-20? If that were true, then the F16s ducking behind the IL-20 at that point would basically steer the S200 missile right into the IL-20

  214. Kiza says:
    @FB

    As always, FB provides an interesting angle to the event, although not totally original because a similar version has been on the internet from the beginning.

    Yet, there are several major Swiss cheese holes in your version – the main one is: why would the Russian MoD misdirect its accusations, even come to opposition to Putin’s statements, why accuse Israel if Israel was only an accomplice to the crime? As a broad general statement, I will always believe the military men over politicians (professional liars). In other words, FB your whole version rests on the premise that MoD is deluded about who really shot down their plane, and then on top the Israelis are deluded enough as well to send a high level delegation to Moscow.

    The wildest conspiracy theory I read on the Internet was that the Russian plane was never shot down.

    Therefore, in this instance I have to knock out of consideration your conspiracy theory as one of the less likely and a distraction. However, I am not knocking out your thesis that IL20/IL22 supposedly continued flying after it was supposed to have been shot-down. This motivates me to examine the finer details of the MoD version of events published just recently. Unless we can assign some nefarious motivation or stupidity to MoD, I would rather believe their version of event because of all the resources they had to examine the event, which we do not.

    My opinion is not a personal attack on you, therefore please do not post any cartoons about me (LOL).

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
    , @Bombercommand
  215. renfro says:
    @The scalpel

    ”The Israelis knew a one minute warning was inadequate but gave it just for its value of plausible deniability.”

    Yep.
    I am not interested in the Russian commenters opinions here .
    Because they do not know the Israelis.

    The Israelis were *probing, *testing, *provoking, then *lying and *denying….this is the typical Israeli m.o. in this kind of so called ‘ mistake’.

    I am certain Putin knows this Israeli m.o. as well or better than us long time Israel observers.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  216. I for one will await a putin response that matches the israeli action.

    When there are calls for blood…at times there needs to be blood. In this case we await Jewish blood. Many believe it is long overdue.

  217. @Miggle

    Thank you for your tremendous insight Schlomo. I spell Koofta any fucking way I want regardless of your condescending Jew Supremacist attitude. Now that that is resolved, I challenge your to disprove that Putin is not controlled by jew scum like your compatriots.

  218. @yurivku

    I hate to say this, but I agree re: the “MSM” of the alternative media, but then again, little makes sense these days. Russia as a guest of Syria (with their two known bases – air/naval), and as a nation who has voluntarily undertook the defense of Syria, does have an implied obligation to protect that nation from illegal attacks and/or the illegal presence of foreign forces. At bear minimum, it should provide Syria with S-400 systems, etc., but as far as I’m aware, it hasn’t. PCR has since broken rank with this idea that Russia’s lack of response to the continued attacks against it’s host is explainable by reason or logic – it isn’t. The opposite is true and I’m sure there are those at the Russian MOD that seethe with anger at the way their nation is made to look weak and foolish by the nonsense restraint time and time again. The world I grew up in no longer exists and it can’t be saved anymore, we are headed toward an AI Orwellian nightmare with mass surveillance, mass unemployment, mass poverty, etc. Better Russia stand up for itself whatever the risk as it seems to be one of the only reasoned nations remaining on Earth. I wish I could waive a magic wand and restore some order, sanity and culture to the world, but I can’t. I wish I could see to everyone and every nation getting along and living as one human family, but I can’t. If the “West” is evil as claimed and Russia is our salvation, then I’d prefer to see the evil defeated, though not the people or the nations themselves, just the stranglehold of the systems and/or parties that keep the world in check, that stymie real social progress, that keep us divided and and fighting over crumbs. And unlike Pepe Escobar, I don’t look forward to the rising East as I don’t want to one day be ruled over by a Godless Chinese Empire (even though I’m not religious), does anyone realize that China apparently rates their citizens based on their credit scores and social status? And people complain about the U.S., so much has been lost here though I must admit. Two years ago I created this for the world and for world peace, here it is again – NATO Blues:

  219. @Miggle

    Thank you for your tremendous insight Schlomo. I spell Koofta any fucking way I want regardless of your condescending Jew Supremacist attitude. Now that that is resolved, I challenge your to disprove that Putin is not controlled by jew scum like your compatriots.

    • Replies: @Miggle
  220. @Miggle

    Ah Miggle, the great arbitrar and judge of intelligent comments, or more likely, the pompous smug twit spewing his effluvia before jerking off his four incher for an early night. Since your deem Mssr. Cohen comment so intellectual,you owe me an apology douche bag

    • Replies: @annamaria
  221. The scalpel says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    Harold, what are your thoughts on all those who maintain that Putin has a secret payback planned at a secret date in the future? Assuming that is Putin’s modus operandi, what is your guess on what that payback was for the US and allies after the “accidental” bombing of it’s SAA ally’s forces in Deir Ezzor?

    My oberservation is that it was nothing. We can expect the same response now.

    Perhaps their “ally”, the SAA does not merit defense from hostile air attacks.

    It seems to me that Putin lacks confidence that he can retaliate in even the most minimal way and not suffer a catastrophic response.

    Perhaps that is true and he is just biding time while he continues to build Russia’s abilities.

    Perhaps he just simply lacks confidence

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Harold Smith
  222. FB says:
    @The Scalpel

    How would it affect your calculations if, for example the IL-20 flew a good ways after it was struck by a missile[?]‘

    It’s still impossible to square that kind of distance discrepancy…as mentioned the Il20 could have flown perhaps 10 km in that one minute or so from the point of the ‘close encounter’…based on its cruise speed of ~10 km per minute…

    So the missile would have hit it at the point I marked with the red arrow…to then fly another 30 km plus make aright turn before falling into the sea…?

    An intact airplane could glide for even 50 km from a height of 5,000 meters [5 km]…and that’s assuming a glide ratio of only 10…a passenger jet will have a glide ratio of closer to 20…but not a turboprop…

    But an airplane that is blown up by a missile will basically plummet to the ground…[after some inevitable forward momentum of the pieces is dissipated...but this would be maybe a few km at most...this is what happens when a passenger jet breaks up in flight...the debris field is spread over a few km, depending on the height at which it broke up]

    Here is cell phone video of that Israeli F16 coming down in Israeli territory after being hit by the S200 last February…

    The S200 carries a ~500 lb warhead…that is HUGE for an anti-aircraft missile…I mentioned already its speed of 2,500 m/s…which is 25 percent faster than the S400 rockets…[this is due to the S200 using a more efficient liquid fuel rocket engine, as opposed to the solid fuel rocket motors used on modern missiles, which are more compact, but not as efficient...]

    Just the kinetic energy of a hit at 2.5 km per second is huge…[also the flying shrapnel of the warhead will be flying at that same speed, so the missile doesn't have to hit the airplane square on to deliver its massive kinetic energy]…

    There is no way that this official map squares with the narrative…

    As to your second question…

    ‘is it possible that the S200 fired on the F16s before they arrived at their closest contact with the IL-20?’

    That would in fact shorten the distance the Ilyushin could have flown…since the missile was already nearby…

    It is also worth noting here that there is no timestamp information on the F16s…that ‘close encounter’ point may not have been a close encounter at all…the F16s may have passed that point at completely different time than the Ilyushin…

    We also have no altitude information on the F16s…even if they did pass that point at the same time, the vertical separation could have been several thousand meters [several km]…so again that would make radar masking impossible, since that is a maneuver that requires quite close proximity…

    The Russians of course have the exact timestamps for every inch of those two flights…and they also have the altitude information…but it is NOT being made public…with the Turkish Su24 downing, by contrast, the Russians made all of this kind of extremely precise information available…

    There is much more that does not add up, when we consider some of the technical nitty gritty of those very high performing an d networked radar systems the Russians have…but I will not get into that now…

    The fact is that the information presented makes it impossible for both radar masking and an S200 shootdown to have occurred…the distance between the point of masking and the point of the Il getting hit is simply too great…

  223. FB says:
    @Kiza

    Sorry but there are no ‘Swiss cheese’ holes in the physics that I presented…if you cannot understand it then that is a different matter…

    As to the ‘why’ part I already explained this…telling the truth would mean a crisis with Nato, that Russia [and its military] sees as needless and wants to avoid…

    Blaming Israel who is caught with their hand in the cookie jar makes a lot more sense…

    If you choose to believe everything you are told and you think that military men don’t lie, or are never ordered to lie by politicians, then you are the one who is dreaming…

    Also want to clear up who exactly on the internet has provided the flight physics analysis that I provide here…?

    Since you imply that I am copying someone on the interne, it should be no problem for you to produce the proof…

  224. Miggle says:
    @Bombercommand

    Half the members of Congress are dual citizens, aren’t they?

    • Replies: @anarchyst
    , @Colin Wright
  225. bjondo says:

    Turn the BS red heifer into hamburger.

  226. FB says:
    @Kiza

    Oh and btw Mr ‘Conspiracy Theory’…where is the mention of that Syrian air defense unit that pulled the trigger…?

    Surely by now there would be at least some words about that hapless crew in the Russian and Syrian media…?

    The crew would be disciplined at the least for making some kind of ‘mistake’…as Putin himself put it…

    But no…the silence about the S200 crew is deafening…

    How’s that for ‘Swiss Cheese’…?

    • Replies: @Kiza
  227. anon[317] • Disclaimer says:
    @Amber Dekstris

    @Amber Dekstris.. thanks for your laws, principle and interpretations are fixed only by the environment variable of jurisdiction response.
    Since torts between nations: damage and destroy the rights, structures, life, methods, and assets of mankind, it is possible that only courts which derive their jurisdictional powers from the inalienable and universal rights of mankind, are competent to hear cases, where one nation commits a tort against another nation?
    If so, where are those courts, and how would judgements of courts be enforced?

    Clearly no court that derives its jurisdiction from the laws of mankind would be competent to hear such cases.

    .

  228. xxx says:

    Only haters think the Israelis could be responsible for things like the USS Liberty attacks in 1967, or the odd circumstances surrounding the 9/11 attacks in the US.

    • Replies: @Alligator
  229. @Kiza

    FB deals with your objection in his comment, please reread it. If you don’t want to I will explain. The Russian MoD statement of a French warship missle launch is fact. President Putin’s statement it was a Syrian S200 is a story, designed to avoid declaring war on NATO, as the French attack was a purposeful provocation designed to get President Putin to do just that, declare war on NATO. The Turkish shoot down of the Russian Sukhoi is an example of a previous similar provocation.

    • Agree: FB
    • Disagree: L.K
    • Replies: @Kotlin
  230. Alligator says:

    The “Russians” were less than soft here against Israel. In fact they were out in the open with their collusion as if this was something normal – and even asked: why are you doing this to us after all that we’ve been doing for you?
    We all know Russia has been a playing ground for and controlled by Jewish interests from the beginning of the USSR (its “collapse” was a controlled demolition by the same people) but expected a national revival lately (in fact for 20 years already), and to be an exemple for others to follow. But with time, it looks more and more less likely, in fact quite the opposite.
    Even if “Russia” establishes a “no fly zone” around Israel, as they seem to suggest elsewhere, it will rather protect the Israeli land from OUTSIDE attacks rather than limit its power which is INTERNATIONAL.
    It seems to me that the only political and military figures left that truly dare speak truth to power are Nasrallah, Rouhani and… Erdogan (though grossly misunderstood here) Really sad…

  231. @Harold Smith

    Like Hitler, Putin does not to seem to fully grasp how implacably hostile the forces arrayed against his nation are.

    • Replies: @Alligator
  232. It’s a good thing the Russians aren’t so emotionally invested in the Holocaust myth, so they can push some envelopes here.

    Oh wait…

  233. Alligator says:
    @xxx

    Right, and they became ” haters” precisely because of those circumstances. Can you blame them?

  234. @renfro

    Yes. What Saker et al. fail to appreciate is that Israel has long ago lost any benefit of the doubt.

  235. The Saker reminds us that we don’t have enough facts to arrive at a conclusion about the downing of the reconnaissance plane. I would take the opportunity to remind them that we still have no conclusive evidence to lay blame for the downing of a Russian civilian aircraft in the Sinai in recent years. We do have a claim of responsibility from members of ISIS and we now know the extent of involvement of American, Israeli and NATO intelligence in the formation and support of ISIS so we are closer to an answer. How many more lives will be lost in this process is anybodies guess but I am certain that Russians are capable of acting in their own just interests when they do make a determination of the facts.

  236. The answer to this question lays in the answer to the question; why did Israel let the clock wind down until 60 seconds remained before the attack to warn Russia. What is their excuse for that? Even if they gave Russia a 30 minute advance notice would it have changed the outcome for Israel? I don’t believe so. So again. Why did Israel wait until 1 minute before launching their missiles to give the warning?
    Today Tass published an article about a court case involving Israel, Palestine, and illegal settlements. In defense of the (illegal) settlements Israel’s attorney argued that Israel has the right to annex any lands they choose, in any country they choose. Talk about chutzpah. As I read this I got the image of a rude, unkempt, gross, odorous, overly obese cartoon kind of guy wiggling, and wedging his fat ass into a booth right in between a couple, of complete strangers, who were just enjoying a cozy lunch at their favorite neighborhood diner. And of course he left the unlucky pair his tab.
    I think the answer to this Jewish problem. The central banks of this world should be broken up, and fractional banking outlawed. As the wealth accumulated by the tribes over the past 250 years has been gained illegally through fraud all of their assets must be seized. In the 1960′s a civil trial held in Chicago, Ill., JP Morgan was called to testify testified. During his testimony he admitted that the banks create money out of thin air. It was a foreclosure case which the defendant won, and kept his house. The judge ruled that the mortgage contract was invalid because the money loaned was counterfeit. Six months later the judge died from find poisoning. But, there was never an appeal of his decision, so the ruling stands. Unfortunately somehow, or for some reason, there have been no follow up cases. This information may be available online. I first read about this in the that I highly recommend, “The Creature From Jekyll Isle”. Another good one is “Web of Deceit”.
    Because the Federal Reserve Corp., and other world banks answer to no one, and can not be audited, I suggest that Jews run the banks, the banks can print any amount of currency they desire, and can easily dole it out to whatever entity they choose, for what ever reason they want. Could this be how Jews were able to buy dominant control of, media, government, publication, etc.? Why are we unable to audit the Federal Reserve? For 2018 we will pay $500 billion, or 1 half trillion, dollars in interest to the owners of the federal reserve. We must be sick to allow this to continue.

  237. Alligator says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    He does. But he also knows they are not that implacable if he works for them.
    He’s like some smaller Don trying to get more space for his gang in the grater Mob.
    That’s all folks!

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  238. peterAUS says:
    @Alligator

    But he also knows they are not that implacable if he works for them.

    Disagree.
    He knows that they are totally implacable save full submission. Yeltsin era.

    He’s like some smaller Don trying to get more space for his gang in the grater Mob.

    He is. Not a drunkard and old fool as his predecessor.
    But “they” won’t…can’t…tolerate a Russian Don. Caporegime perhaps. A little, replaceable one.
    Putin and his ilk are not that type of a man.

  239. Vojkan says:

    “Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up?”

    Because they haven’t. They knew there was a Russian plane there, they knew the Syrians’ lack of competence at air-defence, according to the Russian MoD, they informed of their intentions one minute before they attacked, conclusion: they didn’t screw up, they saw an opportunity too great to be missed to have the Syrians screw up.
    There is no justification for Putin continuing to pander to Israelis, declaring, as he says in accord with his MoD, it was all an “unfortunate succession of tragic circumstances”, while the Russian military, through the voices of the minister of defence, Sergei Shoigu, and the MoD spokesman, Igor Konashenkov, put the blame fair and square on Israelis.
    There is no use to make excuses for Putin’s refusal to adopt a firm stance with regards to Israel. We know he’ll never order the Russian military to shoot at Israelis, even in self-defence, even though the passivity costs the lives of Russian servicemen. The fact is that Israelis have shattered his credibility and they have done it on purpose, and he didn’t even notice. Not even his military seem to have much respect left for him, otherwise they wouldn’t make statements that so blatantly contradict his. Maybe we all actually overestimated him.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  240. Vojkan says:

    I’d add just this. Maybe the Israelis would screw up less if they were made to suffer the consequences of their screw-ups.

  241. Kiza says:
    @FB

    Gee, at least your arguments are more reasonable then that side-kick of yours bomb-something.

    But even you go for – “if there is no information then my theory is right”. You could have seen in one of my previous comments that Haaretz talks about having insider information about the Syrian air-defense crew being tortured by the Russian MPs (mix two truckloads of shutzpah with two truckloads of pig manure and you get Israeli MSM). Therefore, it is not that the shoot-down crew is not mentioned at all, unless the Israelis are in one the act of defending the French.

    Anyway, with respect for your knowledge but with disappointment at the exceptional way you set the premises for your analysis and labeling of anyone who doubts as physics-denier, I am still not convinced that you and other online pundits got it right.

    When the first news of this arrived, I was also convinced that it was the French frigate most likely did it, because it had the means and it was in a best location, plus launches were detected. But when MoD published its version, for me the issue of the culprit is closed.

    Do military people lie, yes they do (just think of that US Admiral who became State Department spokesperson), but much less than others. Because of the linear way of military thinking, to create a military conspiracy is infinitely more difficult then to create a political conspiracy.

    Finally, for Russia and Israel to cooperate in fooling the Russian nation and the whole World, to hide the real culprit for the sake of protecting NATO and preventing a nuclear WW3, I really have to wonder at your sanity. Not to mention that you only talk about the loss of an expensive plane without mentioning the top experienced crew, which was probably 1000x more valuable to Russia.

    I have not lost the trust in your military engineering knowledge, but I would not count on you for analytical skills. I will check for inconsistencies the flight paths that Russian MoD published, but I will discuss the French theory no more.

    • Replies: @FB
  242. Erebus says:
    @FB

    The Ilyushin in that one minute would have been able to fly for maybe 10 km AT MOST…and would have come down where I have place the red arrow on the map…

    Surely, how long/far it flew after being hit would depend on the damage it sustained, and we know nothing of that. Quite heavily damaged planes do make it back to base often enough to make make such conjectures speculative. Maybe it did get hit very close to your “close encounter” point, and the pilot managed to keep it flying for 40km. We’d need a lot more information than is available on the graphic to make that call.

    However, I agree that things continue to not add up.

    From what I understand of your post, your vote would go to Joaquin Flores’ theory that the French did it, rather than Andrew Korybko’s that disgruntled SAA personnel did it.

    IOW, this…
    https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/
    rather than…
    https://eurasiafuture.com/2018/09/21/heres-how-the-latakia-tragedy-nay-conspiracy-might-have-played-out/

    If so, IMHO, I’m not sure you’ve made the case. Both scenarios remain possible after assuming your analysis is correct. Namely, if the IL20 was hit somewhere between the red arrow and the red X, the missile could have come from any of a variety of parties.

    Furthermore, if you’re right, the Russians did a terrible job of protecting their assets against hostile forces, whereas if Korybko’s conjecture holds, they could be excused for failing to protect themselves against allies. I’m not sure we’ll ever see a graphic with all the aviation and all the missile tracks.

    For myself, I continue to lean to Korybko. An unprovoked NATO sucker punch against Russian assets presumes a level of recklessness that curdles the blood. Sheer madness, and the end of history looms. Can’t go there. Not yet.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @roamer
  243. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Our feelings, whose? Yuri, aren’t you a graduate of MVTU (as it used to be known, today MGTU)? I remember you mentioned something about studying issues of Air Defense. So are you Pidzhak?

    Yes, my american friend, you are absolutely right. I am what you called pidzhak and I served for 2 years in Syberia in S-200 (what a coincedence!) division (PVO). And yes, I graduated MVTU and yes again I have highest possible that time clearance.
    But I am also a son of professional Leutenant-Colonel of Soviet Army and I have enough of military acquaintances. And last but not least I still in Russia, but you’re in USA.

    You did not say, but I will – really military men like(d) Putin more than others due to army resurection during his rulings. That was especially true after 2014, Crimea was unexpected but wonderful act of his. But after that was a betrayal of Donbass people (he said “we’ll punish anyone who’ll offend our) people” and you know what happened afterwars we saw pictures like this every day

    ), downing our jet by Turkey, shelling Syria with Tomahawk, lots of insultmens, fake deads like Skripal case and at last IL-20.
    Every year Russians being kidnapped around a world (Yaroshenko, But …), but goverment does nothing…
    Pension reform.
    We can see that just ordinary Russians mean not much to Putin and his colleagus in power.
    At the same time we see huge level of corruption inside Russia. We know that by strange coincidence all old his friends became a billionaries etc.
    So this time Putin lost all the people’s credit, military men included.

    But even so, you surely must know how the issue of RLP …

    I’m not going to continue this technical BS, I’m talking about politic facts and morality.
    You, of course, have right for your special american opinion, but you have no one to insult us, people whose opinion differ dramatically from yours.

    BTW your tone changes when you talk to Mr. Roberts. But PCR are saying exactly what I do – current Putin’s policy is immoral and dangerous and leading us to WW3.
    I said it already many times and not gonna continue, everybody who lstened should already get it.

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Vojkan
  244. Kiza says:
    @annamaria

    annamaria, I am not a military expert, but an exclusion zone size would have to be based on the missile range and air-defense reaction times. It has to give one enough time to detect and shoot-down the attackers. It is a total mystery to me why this was not done from the beginning, officially or unofficially. Now it is a kind of late for some, maybe not too late for others.

  245. yurivku says:
    @Kiza

    The intelligence has a wider window on what is going on in the military then you have Yuri. Also, Putin and his cohort would be looking at similar intelligence. However, my main point was that Shamir is not rushing to judgement like Putin, Saker and Martyanov. If Putin kept completely silent about the Israeli action costing Russian lives, I would have kept my belief in his leadership. But in the rush to cover for his failed approach (of trusting the enemy) in Syria, he made Russia a complete laughing stock of the World.

    As for Saker and Martyanov I currently begin to think that they doing a payed job. Their “provements” highly like ass those we could see in Scripal case. Fnd despite of the Saker Martyanov’s las arguments are insultments. But ok now it’s absolutely clear who’s who.

    What about Shamir and his links – probably he’s got some contacts. I’m telling about just people (military and others, liberals and Jews not to count) – our opinion just opposite to Martyanov’s and Co

    • Agree: Kiza
  246. Alligator says:
    @JC

    It’s no doubt about the Jews but I doubt the poor chef is involved… :-D
    The problem is, in its high society Russia is pretty much Jewish, and it’s well known – hence the “nazi” reaction in Ukraine, by the way – though they finally got a Jewish government of their own! :-D

  247. Max Payne says:
    @FB

    It’s a damn shame we can’t promote user comments as semi-articles for Unz.com front page.

    • Replies: @FB
  248. yurivku says:
    @Moi

    BTW, even Paul Craig Roberts questioned Putin’s resolve.

    Why “even” ? He’s almost the only US politican who’s truly patriot and peacelover.

    • Replies: @Moi
  249. @unseated

    read the entirety of section 44.
    Danby is technically disqualified by his, quote, “entitlement” to citizenship of a foreign nation.
    The problem, is that nobody has the nerve to mention it or enforce it.

  250. Moi says:
    @yurivku

    “Even” because unlike The Saker.

  251. @Andrei Martyanov

    Andrei, any chance there’s been quiet recompense to the families of the crewmen killed, maybe another quiet stipend for the plane? Perhaps with the delegation to Moscow, a pallet of cash? Little of it is in the Washington Post, of course. Still, cold hard cash is a wonderful salve. Israel can’t officially own any of this, but their activities caused it. Perhaps they made it right in tangible fashion?

    I don’t buy that F-16s in a flight of four could ‘hide’ in the radar profile of a single patrol bird. Those missiles apparently didn’t have any profile-recognition capabilities, so nearest target gets hit. The Israeli tactic was always to stay over the Med. That was a Russian failure. The rest was Israel, dicking around again.

    • Replies: @Jeffery Cohen
  252. Russia to Send S-300 Anti-Missile System to Syria After Il-20 Crash – DM Shoigu

    “The Syrian Armed Forces will be supplied with the advanced S-300 air defense missile system within two weeks. It is capable of intercepting air threats at a range of more than 250 kilometers and simultaneously hitting several aerial targets,” Shoigu said, adding that the S-300 would significantly boost Syria’s combat capabilities.

    “Russia will jam satellite navigation, on-board radars and communication systems of combat aircraft, which attack targets in the Syrian territory, in the regions over the waters of the Mediterranean Sea bordering with Syria,” Shoigu said.

    “We won’t let Syria be turned into a main Iranian military facility against the Israeli state. We continue to act… and we have all the necessary means and opportunities to this end,” he said.

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809241068279653-russia-syria-s-300/

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  253. Vojkan says:
    @yurivku

    I don’t often disagree with Martyanov’s views but on this one I’m with you. Putin’s inability to protect Russian lives, his lack of concern for ordinary Russians while he nurtures his billionaires acquaintances, and his constant pandering to Russia’s enemies, are all invitation to aggression against Russia and may well lead us straight into WWIII.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  254. @Jim Christian

    I don’t buy that F-16s in a flight of four could ‘hide’ in the radar profile of a single patrol bird. Those missiles apparently didn’t have any profile-recognition capabilities, so nearest target gets hit. The Israeli tactic was always to stay over the Med. That was a Russian failure. The rest was Israel, dicking around again.

    It is cooked to deny Israel air-power over Syria. See my comment #258 above!

    • Replies: @Mike P
  255. Miggle says:
    @General Koofta

    You said:

    Everyone seems to be forgetting, Mssr. Putin, probably is the richest man in the world…..ill gotten gain acquired through corruption, robbery, bribery,murder(Beslan), and knowing how to bring his KGB/FSB skills to control the (mostly Jewish) oligarchs. If you think that for one minute the Zionists and Banksters do not have him by the short ones and played a major role in his wealth accumulation, you would be sadly naive. It’s time for this botoxed prick to be removed from his high estate by the Russian military and replaced with someone who values Russian lives more than filthy lucre. The Turks killing a Russian airman and his procession to make a deal with the neo-Ottoman Erdogan was the prelude to this treasonous lack of response by the Israelis on his countrymen. He needs to go and now …. ultimately to stop Zio WWIII.

    Then you said:

    Thank you for your tremendous insight Schlomo. I spell Koofta any fucking way I want regardless of your condescending Jew Supremacist attitude. Now that that is resolved, I challenge your to disprove that Putin is not controlled by jew scum like your compatriots.

    And then:

    Ah Miggle, the great arbitrar and judge of intelligent comments, or more likely, the pompous smug twit spewing his effluvia before jerking off his four incher for an early night. Since your deem Mssr. Cohen comment so intellectual,you owe me an apology douche bag

    Something we need to be aware of is that the purpose of a tirade of hate speech is to eliminate freedom of speech. Empty, clueless screams of hatred are actually clued-up, subtle, ingenious. There will be a lot of calls on the government by your lobby, a lot of pressure, demanding the elimination of Unz Review and like sites, and pointing to your comments here as proof of that necessity. Won’t there?

    Let’s leave the spelling issue. I no longer think you are General Stupidity misspelling your name General Koofta. I think you are very cunning.

    Are you Mossad or CIA? Mossad, I think, even though you trot out the kind of MSM anti-Putin propaganda that is fed to them by the CIA, filled with words of hate, “filthy lucre” and so on. And even though, in a very American way, you are demanding regime change with your “Putin must go”.

    You look more like Mossad with your posture of expressing anti-Jewish hatred in a clueless, prejudiced way. A bonanza for Israel, being able to scream again about “antisemitism” and increase their bullying of timid politicians, while making critics of the Jews look stupid. If an expression of hatred for the Jews is made to look very stupid, as yours does, it is an excellent achievement, they win both ways.

    Use of the name Shlomo (Solomon) to signify “Jew” in a derogatory sense seemed to spring up on the Web only following publication of Shlomo Sand’s book The Invention of the Jewish People, in which he exposes the frauds and deceptions associated with every particle of the Zionists’ claim that they had some right to Palestine, some ancestral connection.

    Sand is a professional historian and he examines the origins of every Jewish group, Spanish, Polish, Berber, Yemeni and others, demonstrating that they were the achievements of early proselytizing rabbis. In other words that today’s Jews are all the descendants of converts to Judaism. He goes on in each case to recount the absurd denials of that fact by many Jewish authors.

    The denials usually boil down to the idea that, yes, the numbers of converts to Judaism in circumstances where tribal polytheisms were falling apart were immense. Yet later, when the Jews of such a region were “persecuted” or were under some pressure to convert to another religion, such as following Muslim or Russian conquest of their land, at such times every Jew who was a descendant of converts abandoned Judaism but “born Jews”, or as otherwise put, those of “Jewish stock”, in other words who were not the descendants of converts to Judaism but descendants of bible-era Israelites, held fast.

    It is thus proven, by fantasy, that every Jew living in each such region today is a descendant of the ancient Hebrews of Canaan, descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

    And he debunks the myth of a “second Exile”, in AD 70 or later. The Jews were never driven out of Palestine by Romans or Muslims. Contrary to the notion that “born Jews” never converted to another religion they of course did, to Christianity when Palestine was Christian, to Islam later when Palestine became Islamic.

    Always, post-Alexander, the number of Jews outside Palestine was immensely larger than the number of Jews there, and that was not the result of exile, but of others converting to Judaism.

    Some of the chapter titles in that book: “Mythistory”, “The Invention of the Exile”, and “Realms of Silence”, the last referring to suppressions of unwanted history.

    The book is said to be a best seller, but also one that “caused a furore when first published in English.” Let me quote from the back cover:

    A historical tour de force, The Invention of the Jewish People offers a groundbreaking account of Jewish and Israeli history. Exploding the myth that there was a forced Jewish exile in the first century at the hands of the Romans, Israeli historian Shlomo Sand argues that most modern Jews descend from converts, whose native lands were scattered across the Middle East and Eastern Europe.

    Shlomo Sand has published a later book, The Invention of the Land of Israel: From Holy Land to Homeland, which examines the evidence that there was ever in ancient times a place named Israel, and demonstrates that there was not.

    So, when some douchebag, some vendor of hatred screams “Shlomo” at you, thank him for the compliment and the reminder to buy the book.

    • Agree: Jeffery Cohen, Vojkan
  256. Iris says:

    Russia to supply S-300 to Syria within 2 weeks after Il-20 downing during Israeli raid – Russian MoD

    https://www.rt.com/news/439190-russia-il20-downing-reaction/

    • Replies: @yurivku
  257. Oooh, LA-LA! It was the French!! (stinky pits and all, baby)

    https://www.fort-russ.com/2018/09/full-analysis-russian-disinfo-campaign-blames-israel-for-il-20-plane-downing-yet-exonerates-france/

    The Saker doesn’t spend enough time (not nearly enough) in his vino…

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  258. yurivku says:
    @Vojkan

    Ok, so there are at least three of us (counting PCR) -))

    Putin’s inability to protect Russian lives,

    But not “inability”, but the lack of desire, I’m afraid

  259. @Ronald Thomas West

    …and needs to dull his overactive imagination where it would seem Russians never use propaganda for a lie. In any case, maybe people are focused at the wrong end of the S200 (command & control) and rather the question should be: how is it a state of the art Russian electronic warfare plane couldn’t deflect a dated Russian built SAM system’s missile headed direct at it? Is it because things didn’t actually go down as presented?

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  260. annamaria says:
    @Arnieus

    Agree.
    Until the zionized US military obeys the orders from the leading zionists and other “deciders,” the US government should be greeted with “Happy 9/11!”

    The American “patriots” like Cheney and McCain can be safely called the greatest traitors to American citizenry and western civilization: https://www.globalresearch.ca/can-the-downing-of-russias-il-20-be-the-beginning-of-the-end-for-israeli-hubris/5654853

    “While Putin’s priority in Syria is the terrorist menace, he faces a much darker enemy because these terrorist are proxy armies trained and financed by the US and its allies. If initially it was a simple matter of eliminating rogue Islamists it has now become obvious that they are part and parcel of a bigger conspiracy by the US and its allies, who choose to weaponize Islam…”

  261. Mike P says:
    @Jeffery Cohen

    It is cooked to deny Israel air-power over Syria.

    Yes – but if indeed the Russian plane was shot down by the French battleship, then this is about more than just Israel – it is about a real shooting war between NATO and Russia. Putin has done everything he can to avoid it, but it seems NATO is really itching for it, so he may have to give it to them.

    As for now, both sides agree to blame “Israeli recklessness” – the West to save face and not fess up to its overt aggression; Putin to calm the waters, to buy time – both for himself and for Trump, who I don’t think has any desire for such a war, and (Putin again) to justify the shoring up of air defences (thanks for that link).

    • Agree: FB
  262. annamaria says:
    @JC

    This is why you are not a diplomat like Lavrov or a military commander like Shoigu or a president like Putin. Keep wondering. A hint: the Russian Federation is not suicidal.

  263. FB says:
    @Kiza

    Look…I have neither the time nor inclination to trade comments with you…please do not respond to my comments on this thread…you have your ‘beliefs’ as you stated…so run with that…leave me and my presentations here out of your little world…

    Btw…I am pissed about you saying I copied someone…that is bullshit because no one has dissected the flight physics like I have…and since you provide neither proof of your ugly accusation, nor a retraction of the accusation, I think it is then doubly best that you stay away from my activity here…

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
    , @FB
  264. annamaria says:
    @General Koofta

    You owe apology to the UNZ readers for your pedestrian outbursts that are characteristic for “visiting” hasbarists.

  265. annamaria says:
    @The scalpel

    “Perhaps he just simply lacks confidence.”
    –Perhaps this sounds like an attempt at psychoanalysis.

  266. anarchyst says:
    @Bombercommand

    There was a case in 1969 where a “dual nationality” individual wanted to vote in his “home country’s” election. As he feared losing his United States citizenship, he took the case to court, where it was ruled that he could vote in his “country of origin” election without losing his United States citizenship.
    The requirements for revocation of foreign citizenship are still in force, but they are almost never enforced…

    • Replies: @Bombercommand
  267. Saker’s credulity is truly amazing at times. Of course Russia is going to blame Israel. It’s the best CYA they can engage in. They certainly have no desire to blame the Syrian missile operators, as Russia quietly takes over the missile defenses.

  268. @Iris

    You are most welcome!

    Update: As I stated elsewhere, Russia needs to secure all of Syria before international investment can begin. Not only Israeli, but also NATO warplanes need to be excluded. It would appear that Israel played the role of useful idiot in providing Russia with sufficient justification to take a major step towards accomplishing this goal.

  269. yurivku says:
    @Iris

    At last. Hopefully they won’t change this within 2 weeks now.

    • Replies: @Iris
  270. @Jeffery Cohen

    Only the first two paragraphs you block quoted are statements by Mr. Shoigu. The final paragraph is a quote from a zionist entity turd, Lieberman.

  271. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    Shamir is not rushing to judgement like Putin, Saker and Martyanov. If Putin kept completely silent about the Israeli action costing Russian lives, I would have kept my belief in his leadership. But in the rush to cover for his failed approach (of trusting the enemy) in Syria, he made Russia a complete laughing stock of the World.

    The real power of Israel is not in the its own cowardly and over-promoted military, the power of Israel is in the ability to get the US, UK, France, Germany and even Russia to sacrifice all the way to the nuclear holocaust of humanity. The history of A.D. era is in good part a history of goyim killing each other for the profit of the Jews and now is the crescendo with nuclear weapons.

    Putin must walk a razor’s edge of realpolitik and Machiavellian diplomacy.

    The Fiend is slathering for a war between Russia and NATO. They want to ‘rope a dope’ Putin into total war just like they did with Hitler and ‘the corridor’. WWII was the Fiend’s greatest triumph to date. Not only did it wipe out 60 million anti-Semites, (often in the most horrific ways imaginable), but it secured the triumph of Israel as a state, and solidified their absolute domination of the West.

    An all out war between Russia vs. Poland, Ukraine, the Baltic states, etc.. with NATO providing the munitions and Eastern Europe providing the cannon fodder, would be so orgiastic to the Fiend that it would be like watching Gaza burn, but on a civilizational, epic and era changing scale!

    Virtually every single government leader of the zio-west, not to mention every single media outlet, both putatively left and right, would be hailing the war against Russia as if Putin were Adolf Hitler only ten times worse, and that this is an existential battle for the future of freedom on the planet!

    The hysteria can’t even be comprehended, but it would envelope the globe, and crush like a tsunami over the very few voices of reason, who’d be demonized as ‘Putin lovers!’

    Even today, the slightest suggestion that Putin didn’t personally ‘hack our democracy’ (and invade Crimea and shoot down MH17, and assassinate umpteen journalists and former spies… ad absurdum), is considered tantamount to treason, and giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2017/07/13/fireworks_tucker_carlson_vs_max_boot_on_russia_you_dismiss_anyone_who_doesnt_share_your_view_as_a_nazi.html

    So Putin is walking a very dangerous line. Time is on his side. The closer Syria gets to stability, the better it is for Syria, Russia, and all the people on the planet not aligned with the Fiend. I.E., those not in government or media. All of us ‘normal people’, for whom Putin is our champion.

    (((They))) want war, we want peace. They have unlimited resources and a completely compliant western press and all kosher government officials and elites, (ZUSA, France, England, Germany, Poland, Canada, and on and on).

    When Putin invites bibi to participate in Russian parades, he is acting as a supreme statesman, using flattery and unctuousness (however distasteful to the rest of us) to avoid WWIII.

    Perhaps Putin stuffed that plane with dead bodies of Russian soldiers and was flying it by wire, when he allowed it to be shot down by the primitive S200, as a pretext for moving in the S300s, that he knows will be necessary during the next phase of the Syrian conflict.

    (Perhaps my imagination is a bit wild) I don’t know. But I would be very hesitant to question Putin’s motives, patriotism, or courage as he navigates these treacherous waters.

    The Fiend is always there, agitating and intriguing to see anti-Semites get slaughtered wholesale, while it profits and licks its Satanic lips for more and more war.

    (btw, appreciate your comments as always, as I do the Saker’s and others on these matters, about which we in the zio-west are under an iron dome of enforced ignorance and worse, duplicitous, devil’s lies 24/7 – 365)

    • Agree: Iris, Cloak And Dagger
    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
    , @Kiza
  272. @Ronald Thomas West

    The IL20 is not EW. The IL20 is ELINT.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  273. FB says:
    @Erebus

    ‘For myself, I continue to lean to Korybko…’

    Not sure what to tell you if you need this pinhead to sort things out for you…

    He used to have a column in Sputnik and he got hounded out of there by an unrelenting barrage of vicious reader comments [including yours truly] every time he posted one of his pinhead fantasies…

    I saw you link to his latest diarrhea and was utterly amazed at his unfathomable lack of even basic facts…

    He refers to the identification friend or foe system [IFF] as ‘FFI’ throughout…how much time does it take to read a paragraph or two in wikipedia about a technology you know nothing about before putting pen to paper…?

    He states that the Russians ‘had no idea of the approaching Israeli fighters’ until they got the hotline call one minute before…then how is it that the MoD produced the exact flightpath of those Israeli jets…?

    It is a well known fact that Russian air defense radar can track Israeli jets as soon as they leave the ground from their fields in Israel…even the Israeli media has printed this fact many times…

    He then states categorically that the Ilyushin had no protection…how the fuck does this pinhead know this…?…it is certain that there would be at least two Sukhoi Flanker air superiority fighters patrolling the area when a high-value asset like an ELINT aircraft is in the air…

    That is kindergarten level for anyone who knows anything about air operations …and this pinhead would know all about that if he would pick up the phone and talk to the right people…these are basic facts of life…

    It must be noted that those escort fighters can do nothing to shoot down an air to air missile which travels at Mach 4…or a SAM fired from a ship that goes even faster…but for sure they would have been there…

    I could go on and on with the childish fantasies this ridiculous clown puts on the printed page…he claims Israeli jets flew that night into Syrian airspace…total bullshit…their flight path inbound [on the north leg] was 100 km off the Syrian coast…national airspace of any country extends 12 miles [20 km] off the coast, same as territorial waters…

    Israel has not in fact flown inside Israeli airspace ever since the Russians got there…they launch from standoff range, usually from Lebanon…

    As for that other clown Flores…yes I tried to plow through that bullshit that makes no mention of anything having to do with flight physics or the particulars of the flight paths…it is basically a load of shit built on suppositions and French ‘motives’ and other such horseshit…

    I am reminded of Ben Franklin…

    Wise men don’t need advice…fools won’t take it

    As for your this…

    ‘…if you’re right, the Russians did a terrible job of protecting their assets against hostile forces…’

    No…that’s not how things work…the Americans have U2 spy planes and big AWACS flying out of RAF Akrotiri in Cyprus and other high value aircraft flying from other bases in the area…the Russians could just as easily plink one of those out of the air and there’s nothing even GOD could do to protect them…

    The only way you can protect such aircraft is to keep them out of range of deadly missiles…but since things are not [yet] in a state of open war, then you are basically going on the ‘honor’ system…

    The only defense any aircraft has against an incoming missile going hypersonic or near-hypersonic is to try to get the hell out of there…a big airplane has no hope of doing that…a very maneuverable fighter sometimes has a chance to outturn the missile…but not always…did the Israelis ‘fail’ to protect their assets when the Syrian S200 shot down that F16…right in Israeli airspace no less…?

    You have to start thinking a little…

    Then you have this…

    ‘…Maybe it [Il20] did get hit very close to your “close encounter” point, and the pilot managed to keep it flying for 40km…’

    And if that had happened there would have been five minutes worth of radio distress calls from that Ilyushin…yet none were recorded…

    Look that airplane has two pilots and 13 EW specialists running sophisticated radio and data link equipment…those men would have made their situation very clear even in the space of less than a minute…but there was nothing…it just disappeared from radar…

    So there is nothing ‘speculative’ about the situational picture I presented…it is based entirely on the known facts…

    You finish with this thought…

    ‘An unprovoked NATO sucker punch against Russian assets presumes a level of recklessness that curdles the blood. Sheer madness, and the end of history looms. Can’t go there. Not yet.’

    It’s entirely up to you what you think humans are and are not capable of…and do you actually believe the British for example would be above throwing such a sucker punch…?

    Look at the Skripal ‘case’…the anti-Russian hysteria [their GCHQ 'deep state' is neck deep with the American deep state anti-Trump putschists...]

    In any case the flight physics analysis I presented is not some wild ass guess or tea leaves and goat entrails like those ‘articles’ you mentioned…it is based on simple physical facts and the flight path information provided by the MoD…the analysis and conclusion is completely sound in every respect…

    It is saying simply that the official narrative is physically impossible..because it is…

    I have not speculated about some ‘theory’…I simply said that if an S200 shot down that airplane it would have had nothing to do with radar masking…and of course the S200 is quite unlikely, especially considering the value of that Ilysuhin and the specialists on board…much care would have been taken…

    At the same time I also pointed out that the aircraft was well outside Syrian airspace when it got hit…what was it doing there…it is a spy plane after all…do you not think that this might cause some pique in Nato adversaries in the area if the Russians are fucking with their electronics…?

    We have also been provided a clue with that Russian ‘no-fly zone’ which was put in place 24 hours later…and ringing the British Akrotiri air base in Cyprus…do you think that’s just another coinkidink…?

    In any case, today we have news from Defense Minister Shoigu that S300s will be in Syria within two weeks…Shoigu also added this…

    ‘Russia will jam satellite navigation, on-board radars and communication systems of combat aircraft, which attack targets in the Syrian territory, in the regions over the waters of the Mediterranean Sea bordering with Syria.’

    This sounds like it is aimed at more than just Israel…

    Like I said there has been a cat and mouse electronic intel and electronic warfare game going on in the area between Nato and Russian forces…the Ilyushin was clearly an upping of the ante on the part of Nato…something that does not surprise me at all…your mileage may vary…

    • Replies: @Den Lille Abe
  274. @FB

    Look…I have neither the time nor inclination to trade comments with you…please do not respond to my comments on this thread…you have your ‘beliefs’ as you stated…so run with that…leave me and my presentations here out of your little world…

    Oh, gawd, don’t be a niggling sniveler. Block the sonuvabitch and stop whining.

    • Replies: @FB
  275. @Rurik

    (btw, appreciate your comments as always, as I do the Saker’s and others on these matters, about which we in the zio-west are under an iron dome of enforced ignorance and worse, duplicitous, devil’s lies 24/7 – 365)

    I believe the dome is of titanium-steel. What percentage of Americans does Unz represent? Maybe 0.1%?

    While many Americans appear to be capable of recognizing that the gubmint is corrupt to the very core, few seem to understand that the information they are fed is strictly controlled by those very agents of corruption.

  276. FB says:
    @Max Payne

    Glad to hear you found my comment useful…I know that many decent folks are ‘lurking’ here and it is for them that I try to put forth solid information here…

  277. @anarchyst

    Whatever dude. As I immigrated to Canada in 1977 and was therefore eligible for Canadian citizenship, I went to the US Consulate to enquire if there might be any hangup if I became a Canadian citizen. The Consular Officer gave me a handout from the State Department describing the 1969 law and cautioning US citizens that although this law was not currently enforced, it could be in the future. I considered myself warned. Around 1996, I enquired again and was told the law had been abrogated. You can go to the State Department website yourself and see there is currently no barrier to an American having dual citizenship. By the way, your reply is nearly incoherant, you need to work on your writing skills.

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
    , @anarchyst
  278. FB says:
    @FB

    I don’t block commenters…it is a chickenshit move…and also it is useful to see even the most stupid dross imaginable…if only to be reminded just how stupid humans can possibly go…

  279. @Bombercommand

    Around 1996, I enquired again and was told the law had been abrogated. You can go to the State Department website yourself and see there is currently no barrier to an American having dual citizenship.

    LOL. Yeah, you just go ahead and try to divest yourself of American citizenship. Move to another country where taxes are lower, and do everything you can to shrug off American tax collection and, thereby, citizenship. No way.

  280. ” Why in the world has nobody considered that the Israelis might have truly screwed-up? ”
    I did.
    If I wrote it here, do not remember.
    It is as with MH17, just a lot of trouble for Russia, no benefit to be seen anywhere, on the contrary.
    Or Sept 11, no benefit for Muslims, the opposite.

  281. @Bombercommand

    In that case, The Saker should better inform himself (prior to misinforming his readers)

    “Then the “sister question”: what would the Israelis risk by deliberately shooting down a Russian EW aircraft?” (beginning paragraph 11 or so of his article)

  282. @The scalpel

    “Harold, what are your thoughts on all those who maintain that Putin has a secret payback planned at a secret date in the future?”

    A quick answer would be, no, I don’t think he has any such *plan* because if he was of such a mindset, I think he would’ve been more proactive about not letting this kind of serial treachery happen in the first place. He may ultimately do some kind of payback, but not because of a long-standing plan.

    A more thoughtful answer implicates his world view (particularly regarding the corrupt “West”): What does he really think is going on? And this always brings me back to his public statements regarding 9/11: Does he really believe what he said? I could almost understand what he said if he had said it in 2002 or 2003, but IIRC he was saying the same thing in 2015. Does he still in good faith hold the view that the U.S. “government” is not complicit in 9/11? Apparently he does.

    I’ve observed him enough to believe that he’s not a stupid person, so I’m forced to conclude that he’s delusional; he apparently refuses to accept what his eyes and ears are communicating to him.

    To put it another way, it seems to me that his mind just can’t go down to the level of depravity that the “deep state” operates at. The evil they do right out in the open his mind can’t accept. It’s almost as if he thinks what’s happening is some kind of a “game” and he doesn’t realize that his “partners” would mercilessly kill him in an instant if they got the chance.

    My present belief is that Putin thought that the unveiling of Russia’s new weapon systems would put an end to the “game.” But it apparently didn’t, and now he’s out of ideas. He may still be putting eggs in that basket, hoping that the upcoming deployment of the RS-28 missile and S-500 air defense system will break the empire’s stride, but if the world as we know it is still here by then I think he will be disappointed again.

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
  283. FB says:

    Just a heads up on an interesting article today…

    The gist is that that the Russia-Turkey agreement on the Idlib demilitarized zone last week [just hours after which the Russian Il20 was shot down]…is a huge win for Syria, Russia and Turkey…

    And that in fact the US and its Nato stooges were in fact planning to hit Syria very hard by Sept 21…the Idlib agreement has derailed that plan…

    ‘…a brilliant move by Russia and Turkey in the face of mindless military aggression unseen since the early days of World War II. Russia and Turkey “checkmated” the Deep State and we are now seeing the rage, Israeli attacks, American threats.

    All sources are clear, the US planned a massive air attack, aided by Israel, Britain and France, on Syria by September 21, 2018. The nations involved had moved military forces in place, including US assets from around the world, in order to save the last vestiges of al Qaeda on Syrian soil…’

    Now I very much treat author Gordon Duff with a lot of caution…he has been known to make some quite outlandish claims in the past…but here he makes perfect sense…it does not take a genius to see that there was a big confrontation looming over Idlib…the threats from Trump, the State Department and everyone else were crystal clear and explicit…

    Now I have said elsewhere that this Idlib deal is a huge win for Syria and Russia…if you look at a map you see that Idlib is about 60 to 70 km wide…a DMZ of 15 to 20 km on all sides amounts to more than half of Idlib’s total territory…

    Here militants must withdraw weapons and the area is to be policed by Russian and Turkish military…it is basically now Syrian government territory…without firing a shot…

    Even more important, it ‘checkmates’ the planned attack on Syria, which could have indeed been very big and bloody and perhaps a game changer…

    So right on the heels of this agreement we see the Russian spy plane go down while on a mission in international airspace…and a very confusing story that does not add up…

    I will note here also my previous thoughts on a so-called ‘author’ that has been cited here…one ‘Andrew Korybko’ a complete pinhead that I addressed already in this comment…

    This clown is so fucking clued out that he maintains the Syrian government is ‘furious’ about the Idlib deal…this is complete and utter garbage…and really I need to reassess this complete moron as not only unimaginably stupid…but perhaps a paid disinformation agent…

    The reality is exactly the opposite…Russian diplomacy has carried the day once again…and Turkey has finally made a clear choice to be in the Russian camp on Idlib…the DMZ deal is a huge blow to the Jihadists and their sponsors in the west…especially Britain who is neck deep in the chemical hoax garbage and the ‘white helmets’…

    At the same time, Russia is ‘rewarding’ the same Syrian air defense forces that supposedly shot down a high value Russian aircraft with instant delivery of S300 systems…plus a no-nonsense announcement that all aircraft operating in the area will be subject to jamming…

    That is some way to ‘punish’ the Syrian military that, according to total asswipe Korybko, DELIBERATELY shot down the Russian plane…out of anger at the Russians for not doing enough…

    I really have to wonder about the credulity of some of the commenters here…

  284. @FB

    This clown is so fucking clued out that he maintains the Syrian government is ‘furious’ about the Idlib deal

    Assad would be somewhat dubious, one would think. His most difficult enemies are holed-up in Idlib, and he wants them eliminated. Will the Russians+Turks do that for Assad? Probably not to the extent that Assad would like, considering Turkey’s motives overall (there are “rebel” elements in Idlib that Turkey supports, if somewhat furtively.)

    • Replies: @FB
  285. @Harold Smith

    My present belief is that Putin thought that the unveiling of Russia’s new weapon systems would put an end to the “game.”

    Perhaps he did that as part of the game? In terms of strategic advantage, he really doesn’t want to use these purportedly “superior” systems. Using them provides clues to thwarting them, inasmuch as the “superiority” is not some superior science provided by aliens. The USA can, eventually, produce the same stuff, albeit with a pricetag an order of magnitude higher, and a failure rate that requires a few juicy materiel-replacement contracts.

  286. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    Putin has been steady ,consistent ,and focused. Each AWZio been checkmated in every turn by him. He has used consistently the setbacks,losses,and reversals to the advantages of the resistance.

    Iran hopefully will allow Russia to use the country for future combat operations.

  287. anarchyst says:
    @Bombercommand

    It is YOU who need to lose your condescending attitude and GROW UP! This conversation is for adults–not for those who sit at the kid’s table. If you cannot understand what I have stated, that is YOUR problem…
    Just because the law isn’t enforced, doesn’t invalidate it.

  288. FB says:
    @BamBam Rubble

    It would help your argument about Assad and the Idlib DMZ deal if you did more than just speculate…ie citing some sources, as I always do…it helps those following the discussion to separate the wheat from the chaff…

    Assad and the Syrian people in general are hugely grateful to Russia…which has saved their country and they fully appreciate that fact…

    Do you suppose also that Assad is somehow vexed that the planned massive air strikes on Syria did not materialize…due precisely to the Idlib deal…?

    The Idlib deal is something of a holding pattern and nobody disputes that…it is not perfect but one can’t always get what one wishes for…at least not immediate gratification…

    But one thing I am certain of is that Assad and the Syrian people he so ably represents are just fine with the DMZ…and some of the other provisions in the deal, which includes the opening of the crucial M5 highway that runs through the middle of Idlib and is the main route linking Damascus and Aleppo city…

    The deal is a step forward and a big one…the light at the end of the tunnel is now clearly visible…

    So, no I do not think there is any reason to suppose that Assad would in any way be ‘dubious’ under the circumstances…that is taking things a bit far…

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
  289. tac says:

    From Russian Defense Ministry….Sergey Shoigu: Syria Will Receive SS-300s and State of the Art Guidance System (Shoigu in his own words with English subtitles):

  290. Kotlin says:
    @Bombercommand

    I just watched Russian MOD new presentation. They provided very precise information about the location of all planes and the time frame of their actions.

  291. @FB

    “At the same time, Russia is ‘rewarding’ the same Syrian air defense forces that supposedly shot down a high value Russian aircraft with instant delivery of S300 systems…plus a no-nonsense announcement that all aircraft operating in the area will be subject to jamming…”

    The thing is Putin has had enough reason to deliver the S-300 to Syria long before now. Trump’s cruise missile attack in April 2017 and the continuous Israeli terror attacks should’ve been sufficient. Then after Trump’s second cruise missile attack in April 2018, Putin threatened to deliver S-300 to Syria, but he changed his mind. He would’ve been in a good position at that point to tell Israel to back off or else, but he apparently didn’t. Instead he waited until a tragic yet foreseeable war crime happens that kills 15 Russian servicemen. Maybe he’ll do it this time but based on past experience it’s a little early to pop the champagne, IMO.

    “That is some way to ‘punish’ the Syrian military that, according to total asswipe Korybko, DELIBERATELY shot down the Russian plane…out of anger at the Russians for not doing enough…”

    Well Turkey deliberately shot down a Russian aircraft and they got “punished” with an S-400, (or are at least promised one) right?

    Anyway, when I try to put myself in the shoes of Syrian military personnel I can see his point to a degree. Syria is under almost constant attack from the air, and Putin won’t sell them an S-300, yet he’ll sell an S-400 to Turkey and Saudi Arabia? Syrians are fighting a “just war”, i.e. an actual defensive war, and are being slaughtered on a daily basis, while Saudi Arabia, an aggressor fighting a genocidal war in Yemen somehow rates an S-400 system? Seriously? How could they not be a little bit irritated with that situation by now?

    So it seems plausible to me that some S-200 operators may have reached a point of such exasperation that they would be “reckless” and say to themselves something like “well I hope I take out an Israeli aircraft, but if I take out the IL-20 it’s Putin’s fault not my fault because he could’ve prevented things from getting this bad blah blah blah” or something like that.

  292. @FB

    It would help your argument about Assad and the Idlib DMZ deal if you did more than just speculate…ie citing some sources, as I always do…it helps those following the discussion to separate the wheat from the chaff…

    Yes, but it matters to you that people believe what you say, or that you think they believe what you say. It does not matter to me. I feel no compulsion to “talk down” to someone who merely expresses an opinion. We are not commenting here at Unz as an effort to save the world.

    So, no I do not think there is any reason to suppose that Assad would in any way be ‘dubious’ under the circumstances…that is taking things a bit far…

    Okay. I, however, believe Assad has every reason, good reason, to be dubious about the motives of Russia and Turkey. Now, you have a different opinion, which you frequently express at great length. Isn’t it wonderful that you speak your opinion, and I speak mine?

    • LOL: FB
  293. FB says:
    @Harold Smith

    What can I say…if that seems plausible to you then run with it…I’m not interested in getting into the evangelism business…I can only offer facts…not belief systems…

    • Replies: @Kotlin
    , @Harold Smith
  294. @Harold Smith

    The thing is Putin has had enough reason to deliver the S-300 to Syria long before now. Trump’s cruise missile attack in April 2017 and the continuous Israeli terror attacks should’ve been sufficient.

    Does it occur to you that a de-stabilized Syria, under constant threat from Israel, might offer an excellent opportunity for Israel to capture an S-300 system? Should they be deployed?

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  295. Kotlin says:
    @FB

    Please have a look at this piece of new info:

  296. Iris says:
    @yurivku

    The untimely death of the IL-20 servicemen is heart-breaking. The massacre of thousands of innocent civilians in Donbass is unbearable.

    This is the abject cruelty the Middle-East has been submitted to ever since the USSR collapsed, thus removing any limits to the hubris of the Zio-Anglo imperialists.

    This is what the Zionist Neocons did with white phosphorous to the people of Fallujah:

    And this is what Zionist Neocons did to the children of Fallujah with depleted uranium:

    And then, in this darkness, in this agony worst than death, a miracle happened and Russia raised back from the twilight of History, lighting the world with a flame of hope, the hope that evil, wickedness and depravity can, maybe, be defeated.

    But defeating an evil so powerful, that go back so far in time, cannot be easy or quick. In the emerging countries I visit, admiration for Russia and for President Putin has no limit. I hope you understand why. With regards.

  297. yurivku says:

    I hate breaking this tale, but nobody is perfect. Your hero also, I’m afraid, just a man. Not the worst, surely

    This is for Iris, sorry

    • Replies: @Iris
  298. @VICB3

    “-If Israel wanted to suck the United States into a shooting war in Syria, it would
    make sense to sink the Truman with one of it’s subs, blaming in on Russia. …”

    Well, they could try it indeed, provided the 2 super-powers in play were run by complete
    dummies, and Israel itself by a bunch of suicidal maniacs (the latter is probably close to
    reality). Besides, Israel is “locked” on the target named “Iran”.

    It has to do with many factors, the last but not the least of which is an ancient prophecy
    (described in David Flynn’s “The Temple in the Center of Time”).
    This book makes it much easier to understand the mentality of those behind many
    (otherwise “weird”, to say the least) events and actions, both in present and in the past.

    For example, it makes it not surprising at all that the distance between 06.08.1967 and
    09.17.2018 is exactly 18,729 days (provided one can see what’s common between 18 and
    729, and what’s so special about it).

    • Replies: @annamaria
  299. peterAUS says:
    @Vojkan

    Maybe we all actually overestimated him.

    Don’t say.

  300. Iris says:
    @yurivku

    Shame, this is quite under the belt.

    Putin is not my “hero”. My hero is probably the Palestinian people, for whom President Putin actually does nothing. But I suppose I am much older than you, so I appreciate the Godly Grace that prevented Syria from being annihilated like Iraq was.

    Anyway… Deepest condolences for the Russian losses and best wishes to you.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  301. tac says:

    The information was provided by the Russian S-400 fire control system based at Hmeymim Airbase in Syria, the Russian Defense Ministry stated, adding that Israeli claims rejecting involvement in the Il-20 downing are false. According to that data, at least one Israeli jet flew at altitude of 10,000 meters, sharing azimuth with the Russian plane during the incident.

    “Today’s data no longer suggests, but clearly proves that the blame for the tragedy with the Russian Il-20 aircraft lies entirely with the Israeli air force and with those who authorized this kind of activity,” the ministry’s spokesman, Maj. Gen. Igor Konashenkov said at a news briefing, adding that the data allows to track on a second-by second basis both the Israeli jets and S-200 missiles

    https://sputniknews.com/middleeast/201809241068294743-data-target-syria-jet/

    Data captured by Russia’s S-400 system in Syria proves Israeli jets were responsible for the downing the Russian plane, the Defense Ministry said, adding that the Syrian missile changed its course shortly before hitting the Il-20.
    Data gleaned from the S-400 air defense system deployed at the Russian Khmeimim air base in Syria’s Latakia province has revealed that the Syrian anti-air missile was, in fact, targeting an Israeli F-16 jet before it abruptly altered its course and eventually hit the Russian aircraft.

    This, and the position of all the aircraft at the moment of the September 17 incident, proves that an Israeli jet was de facto using the larger Il-20 as a cover, the Russian Defense Ministry spokesman, Major General Igor Konashenkov told journalists at Monday’s news briefing.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russian-mod-shows-how-israeli-f-16-hid-behind-il-20-video/

    The establishment of a no-fly zone over the Russian military base in Latakia will prevent a repeat of the IL-20 aircraft tragedy,” Bondarev told the Russian Federation’s Council this evening.

    “After creating a no-fly zone in Latakia, it is necessary to announce that any unauthorized objects in the sky over Hmeimim Airport will definitely be eliminated,” he added.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/breaking-russia-establishes-no-fly-zone-over-latakia-province-diplomat/

    According to these early reports, at least two Russian cargo planes were spotted flying from the Mozdok Ossetia Airbase to the Hmeimim Airport in southwest Latakia.

    As reported by Yoruk Isik of the Bosphorus Observer, two Ilyushin IL76MD multi-purpose four-engine airlifters made their way through Turkey until they reached the Hmeimim Airport.

    These two cargo planes arrived at the Hmeimim Airport just hours before the Russian Ministry of Defense announced that they were going to supply Syria with the S-300 systems.

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article/russia-may-have-already-delivered-s-300-system-to-syria-report/

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @The scalpel
  302. yurivku says:
    @Iris

    Thank you. It’s not actually frequently we can hear sincer words like yours. I wish all the people peace and prosperity despite each day it goes less probable.
    Btw, I was young long time ago,but thank you once more.

  303. @J

    Israel is a geopolitical crime-in-progress. No crime has a right to exist, no criminals in the commission of a crime have the right to self-defense. They have the right to surrender to a competent authority, have the “issue” adjudicated by a fair judicial authority, and if found guilty to be subject to a proportionate penalty, and after having served their time, permitted once again to participate in lawful society.
    The greatest existential threat to Israel,… is Israel.
    I’m an American and a Jew. I’m just not a supporter Zionist or American criminality.
    You, on the other hand appear to be utterly untouched by any taint of ethics outside criminal tribalism. Sad.

    • Agree: FB
  304. @tyrone

    Thanks, Tyrone.

    So few commenters seem to understand the concept of frosty patience.

    Putin gets it. Russia/Syria has won in Syria, though there’s still a bit of mopping up to do.

    The US hegemon is weakening (yes, slowly). Meanwhile, the rest of the world is strengthening, and building the means to operate independently of the Western-dominated financial/trade system. This all takes time.

    Israel is losing support in the global community because of its savagery toward not only the Palestinians, but all the Arab populations surrounding it. Meanwhile it is being slowly encircled by ever more capable adversaries because the Oded Yinon plan, as implemented by the Neocons under Cheney/Bush, has backfired. (Sunni Iraq was decimated, but transformed into an Iranian ally. Syria was savaged, but transformed into a Russian/Iranian protectorate.)

    And then too, the younger generation of American Jews is turning away from apartheid/criminal Israel.

    Every day that passes strengthens Russia/Syria, while Zionist power fades.

    Mourn the loss of the Russian patriots, provide the defensive equipment that can counter any repeat of that loss, stay cool and stay the course.

  305. @annamaria

    There are a number of parasites in the animal world which not only devour their hosts but alter their thinking to cause them to behave in a way that benefits the parasite. E.g. there is a tropical worm which infects humans and other animals when they wash themselves in water containing the lavae of the worm, when the lavae burrow through the skin of the animal and live on its flesh, and then when the adult worm is ready to lay eggs, it causes the host animal to have an irresistible urge to wash itself. When it does so, the worm pokes its rear end out of the body of its victim and lays its eggs in the water. There are other examples, but I merely make the point that the Zionists are this sort of parasite. Not only do they consume the US’s substance but by their control of the media, educational system, entertainment and academia, they alter the thinking of the host population to favour themselves as well.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  306. tac says:

    I’m an American and a Jew. I’m just not a supporter Zionist or American criminality.

    I thank you for having the interests of your country (as opposed to being an Israeli-firster) as the guiding principle and give you credit for speaking up in a public forum.

  307. @FB

    You obviously don’t “only offer facts” because you misrepresented what Korybko said, and you misrepresented the spirit in which he said it.

    He began his essay with a caveat. He clearly pointed out that it’s a “conspiracy theory”; “guesswork.” He said:

    “What follows doesn’t claim to be the author’s final interpretation of what happened, nor to be the only one that reasonably explains the course of events that led to this tragedy, but is simply a well-intentioned exercise in guesswork that strives to present an alternative understanding of what might have occurred on as rational of a basis as possible. The point in doing so is to propose possible answers to some of the most obvious inconsistencies that allow one to thenceforth form a more comprehensive explanation of what might have transpired.”

    And yet here’s how you characterized it:

    “This clown is so fucking clued out that he maintains the Syrian government is ‘furious’ about the Idlib deal…this is complete and utter garbage…and really I need to reassess this complete moron as not only unimaginably stupid…but perhaps a paid disinformation agent…”

    It’s not unreasonable to speculate that some Syrians, especially military personnel, were angry about the Idlib deal, is it? The SAA has been fighting the scumbags for years, during which time they’ve seen their country trashed, their lives disrupted, their friends and family killed and/or displaced, etc., and now when the end is in sight, at the last minute the final victory eludes and instead they get some kind of a stalemate.

    In fact it’s being reported that the “rebels” see the Idlib deal as a victory:

    “Syrian opposition officials praised a deal between Russia and Turkey over Idlib province on Tuesday, saying it had spared the rebel-held region a bloody government offensive and would thwart President Bashar al-Assad’s aim of recovering all Syria.”

    https://middleeastaffairs.net/2018/09/18/syrian-rebels-see-idlib-deal-as-victory-damascus-as-test-for-turkey/

    Korybko said:

    “To be perfectly clear, it is not being suggested that the downing of the Russian spy plane was done on purpose, but just that the Syrian S-200 operator’s recklessness in taking the shot anyways despite the obvious risks involved could have been influenced by that individual’s anger over the Idlib deal that clouded his sense of judgement and led to that regrettable action.”

    Is this not reasonable speculation? Maybe an example in another context will shed light on his meaning:

    You’ve had a bad day at work, and you’re on your way home when an aggressive driver cuts you off in traffic. You get angry and ride his ass, making obscene gestures when he looks in the mirror. Suddenly a deer runs out in the road in front of him and he slams on the brakes. You’re unable to stop in time and you slam into him. The cops arrive at the scene of the accident and charge you with reckless driving.

    Did you hit him deliberately? No. Do you generally drive like that? No. You know better than that; you know it’s dangerous. Normally you’re a good driver and you don’t tailgate anybody but you did on that day because you were angry and the crash was the result. This kind of “road rage” happens all the time.

    It’s clear what he was trying to say but you “evangelized” it into:

    “That is some way to ‘punish’ the Syrian military that, according to total asswipe Korybko, DELIBERATELY shot down the Russian plane…out of anger at the Russians for not doing enough…”

    • Replies: @FB
  308. @Robert Snefjella

    “This latest attack by Israel … this time involving deceit leading to the destruction of the Il-20, has given Russia … rationale… for a potential wide array of new measures.”

    Exactly.

    Give the Zionist criminals more rope,… as the world watches. Then when the time comes to hang them, the world will say:

    “They’ve had it coming for a long, long time.”

    • Replies: @Mike P
    , @Iris
  309. @BamBam Rubble

    “Does it occur to you that a de-stabilized Syria, under constant threat from Israel, might offer an excellent opportunity for Israel to capture an S-300 system? Should they be deployed?”

    LOL! You’re being facetious, right?

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
  310. Mike P says:
    @Jeff Davis

    The problem is that Israel can and will drag the U.S. and Europe into the war. That is the reason for Putin’s extreme caution, not his secret sympathy for or control by the Zionists. Everyone who can’t wait for Israel’s well-deserved comeuppance should be careful what they wish for.

    • Replies: @Jeff Davis
  311. @Harold Smith

    “Does it occur to you that a de-stabilized Syria, under constant threat from Israel, might offer an excellent opportunity for Israel to capture an S-300 system? Should they be deployed?”

    LOL! You’re being facetious, right?

    No, smartass, I’m being pragmatic. If there’s S-300 systems in Syria, and Israel can figure out a way to blow smoke up Assad’s ass for long enough to let a pack of IDF capture them, then that’s what will happen.

  312. Iris says:
    @Jeff Davis

    “They’ve had it coming for a long, long time.”

    If anything, the Israelis are doubling-down on chutzpah.

    While the IAF has just been caught red-handed in yet another gratuitous and avoidable crime, Zionist Union Member of Knesset and former FM Tzipi Livni is now calling for more US involvement in the region to protect Israel.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/amid-strained-russia-ties-lawmakers-urge-greater-us-involvement-in-syria/

    Such impudence is just unbelievable. They are ready to sacrifice up to the last human being to stand above us all.

    • Replies: @Jeff Davis
    , @Kiza
  313. Kiza says:
    @tac

    Well, yours is a nice conclusion to this thread. It appears that the Russians are finally doing what should have been done before. It is my wild speculation that Shoigu is temporarily winning and Putin has shut up (thank god, finally). Shoigu is doing what he wanted to do before, which is winning the war in Syria, but was prevented by Putin. I am again wildly speculating that there is a bit of rift between Shoigu and Putin, indicated by the late re-appointment of Shoigu to his position after Putin’s re-election. Putin appointed all the financial and related ministers (the agents of mafia), but delayed a few appointments of uncorrupted ministers. It is a bit less of a speculation that Putin is an honest and very intelligent person, but thus he is a perfect front for some pretty nefarious and theiving Russo-Jewish characters, the major remaining Russian corruption problem. The cult of Putin is the main protection those invested in. Putin created a name for himself by confronting one Russo-Jewish mafia on behalf of the other such mafia – the currently ruling one. The action of what appears to have been only one Israeli F16 pilot have cost this cross-border mafia a temporary loss of initiative, because the whole of Russia appears to be saying enough-is-enough to the Jewish shenanigans.

    With large countries such as Russia and US, external events always have deeper internal implications in domestic power struggle jousts.

    The main external implication is that Israel may have to give up on controlling Syria, because Shoigu may be prepared to confront Israel and its bitch US, and he is unlikely to be starved of military resources by Putin now.

    The main internal implication is that the reduction in Russian military spending may have to be delayed. This planned reduction was Putin’s club over the heads of the Russian military-industrial complex: reduction in pay in return for a job well done – all these new weapon systems.

    The highly efficient and relatively uncorrupted Russian military-industrial complex serves as a kind of barrier to the financial-industrial mafia, whilst in US/West the military-industrial-intelligence-security complex is a layer of corruption sucking up the national resources second only to finance and followed by medipharma.

    • Replies: @L.K
  314. @Mike P

    On this point I disagree.

    I believe that the Russians will not fire on the Americans, and vice versa. I believe that the danger of an uncontrolled escalation to a full nuclear exchange is real and will deter any such direct military action. Neither the US nor any European country, no matter the degree of Jewish/Zionist influence, will risk nuclear suicide to protect — and most certainly not to exact revenge — from a Russian strike on Israeli forces attacking Syrian or Russian forces in Syria.

    In fact, I predict that Israeli overreach in the form of a looming credible nuclear threat against Russia, sometime in the next twenty years, will result in a Russian strike aimed at essentially destroying Israel’s military — specifically nuclear — capability.

    The Jews worldwide — and their political poodles — will scream bloody murder, but with direct military retaliation against Russia a suicidal act, no direct military action will be taken.

    I also believe that Putin has several plans of lesser severity at the ready so as to avoid being pushed to the extreme of a total nuclear strike on Israel.

  315. “No, smartass,”

    So now you’re going to start calling me names, junior?

    “I’m being pragmatic.”

    LOL! So by your “reasoning” no weapon systems should ever be deployed anywhere lest they be put at risk of being captured? That doesn’t seem very “pragmatic” does it?

    “If there’s S-300 systems in Syria, and Israel can figure out a way to blow smoke up Assad’s ass for long enough to let a pack of IDF capture them, then that’s what will happen.”

    So by your “reasoning” it’s better for Syria to suffer endless aerial attack than to deploy a weapon system which might somehow be “captured” someday?

    BTW why do they need to “capture” an S-300 system when they already have one at their disposal in Greece?

    https://greece.greekreporter.com/2013/12/14/greece-tests-russian-made-s-300-air-defense-system/

    https://defence.pk/pdf/threads/israel-practiced-defeating-s-300-russian-defense-system-in-greece.411969/

  316. @Iris

    They’re scared. They know that they have poked The Bear, and that unlike the Palestinians or Syrians The Bear can kill them any time it wants, in less than half an hour. So they want the big bad US to protect them. Now politically, Trump can’t offend them. And he will certainly deploy some very severe rhetoric, and provide the Israelis with military equipment, but no way will he go to war with Russia over Israel.

    I know, others will disagree, but that is my take on the matter.

    • Replies: @Mike P
  317. Mike P says:
    @Jeff Davis

    I agree with you that Trump has no desire whatsoever for a war with Russia; I find it very telling that he has not made any threatening noises this time against “Animal Assad”. Instead, shortly after the downing of the plane, he has affirmed his pre-election stance that the Iraq war was America’s worst mistake.

    However, it seems to me that Israel, in collusion with the Zionist DC swamp, is working behind Trump’s back and trying to force his hand. To this end, they got the French – Macron is a perfect, brain-transplanted Zio-puppet – to do their bidding and shoot down the Russian plane. Both Putin and Trump know this and try to contain the danger; Putin by fortifying Syria, and Trump by working to regain control of his own government apparatus.

    If this speculation is correct, then Trump should make some major moves against the swamp creatures in the next couple of days. Failing this, we will soon have a shooting war between Israel/US/NATO and Russia. Time to refurbish those mine shafts.

    • Replies: @FB
  318. Vojkan says:
    @foolisholdman

    Funny, I watched the story of that worm, called the Guinea worm, just today on Star Talk on the NatGeo TV channel. They said that the irresistible urge to wash is to alleviate the excruciating pain the worm causes when it wants to lay its eggs. The event also happens to be the end of its life cycle.

  319. FB says:
    @Harold Smith

    Look nutcase…I’m not going to be hectored here by some fucking Korybko fanboy…the man is a grade A fucking clown…end of story…

    Today the transfer of S300 to Syria was announced…and Putin spoke with Assad on the telephone…would the Russians be transferring this system to Syria if their air defense crews were so undisciplined as to fire into the vicinity of a high value Russian aircraft…and causing the tragedy that we have seen…?

    Also today, General Igor Konashenkov, the MoD spokesman, gave a presentation about the incident providing quite detailed S400 radar data about the F16 flight and their exact movements…yet this fucking clown Korybko states as a fact that the Russians ‘didn’t see the Israelis coming’…

    What kind of fucking imbecile does it take to make such a complete fucking idiot statement on paper…?

    The MoD infographic with the flight path of the F16s, which I presented earlier was released days ago…how could this fucking moron then claim the Russians didn’t see the Israelis coming…?

    General Konashenkov also stated that the S400 radar had the IFF signal from the Il20, which provides a detailed data block of the aircraft ID and particulars on the radar screen [similar to mode C in ATC radar]…

    The Syrian air defenses are NETWORKED with radar data from the S400s…that part of the integration and networking of Syrian rockets to Russian radars was explained in detail months ago…as was the fact of the intense training of Syrian SAM crews and their supervision by Russian officers…

    The decision to fire a SAM is made at the level of rocket brigade commander you fucking idiot…that’s a Colonel level position…who the fuck do you think pushes those buttons…Sargent Fucking Pepper…?

    It also means that Russian officers are the ones to call the shots…since that rocket brigade commander would certainly be in direct comms with his Russian supervisors, especially around Hmeimim…

    The idea that Syrians somehow launched, by themselves, with no Russian supervision, an S200 in the area of Hmeimim, which is under Russian responsibility, and where the Russian military HQ in Syria is located is insane…

    Today’s presentation and information confirms the fact that there was no S200 launch…it is a case of ‘That’s my story and I’m sticking to it’…and I have already explained why this is a wise course of action…

    So you can take your fucking Korybko story and stick it in your ear ok…?

    I hope I am making myself very understandable now…

    [For the normal people here, I will have a more detailed breakdown of the data and visuals that were released by the MoD today...once I have had a chance to fully examine it...]

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @Erebus
  320. The scalpel says: • Website
    @tac

    So basically it is just like I said in my earlier post. The S 200s fired at the F-16s before they got to the Il 20. The F-16s then proceeded to fly behind the IL 20 steering the missile right into the IL 20.

    • Replies: @FB
  321. FB says:
    @Mike P

    Very Good comment…[although I would not rule out the British as the trigger man on the Il20 at this point either...]

    I think another factor is the coming midterm election…this could be part of Putin’s calculus in the ‘holding pattern’ strategy vis a vis the Idlib DMZ…

    Looking tough on Russia and Syria with all the hostile rhetoric lately could well be just a canny Trump move in regards the elections…since so much of the public is now so brainwashed on these two issues that it would be futile to fight it…he’s simply overwhelmed and rolling with the punches from the putschists…

    After the elections, with hopefully the GOP retaining their majority, I would expect Trump to come out swinging haymakers…and getting down to real business with Russia and foreign policy…it’s what the people chose when they elected him…

  322. FB says:
    @The scalpel

    Not so fast doc…I am carefully examining that presentation and visuals…it only affirms that there could have been no S200 launch…more to come later…

  323. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Hello Rurik, I truly follow up your comments in other places as well as unz.

    Perhaps Putin stuffed that plane with dead bodies of Russian soldiers and was flying it by wire, when he allowed it to be shot down by the primitive S200, as a pretext for moving in the S300s, that he knows will be necessary during the next phase of the Syrian conflict.

    I cannot tell you how much I wished this was true when I wrote my comment #1. This would show that Russians are not sheep for slaughter then capable of subterfuge and duplicity with which their Western counterparts are born. Unfortunately, Putin’s first reaction reeked of weakness. In the analysis of all possible motivations and effects, his statement is just a horrible embarrassment which I leader of a major country should never afford himself if behaving rationally. I am positive that Putin clumsily tried to reconcile the Russian military and the friends of his friends, the Israelis, and had to shut up now because the Russians are just too angry at what happened and he does not want to expose himself completely.

    It was interesting to read Bolton’s threat to Russia for Syria escalation by selling and delivering S300 to Syria. Typical US – escalation is not that my master is bombing another country daily then that someone sells the victims the means to defend themselves.

    As to the Russia-gate, Skripals etc, I have switched out of that a while back. All those are just a turd -soup that West cooked itself and is now swimming in.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  324. Kiza says:
    @Iris

    Zionist Union Member of Knesset and former FM Tzipi Livni is now calling for more US involvement in the region to protect Israel

    Long ago, when the Libya-like attack on Syria started, I predicted that the terrorists that US, Israel and the rest of the Friends on Syria are training, arming and paying would turn on Israel one day. Then Israel would get the US taxpayers, the young boys and girls to pay & die resolving the problem of Israel’s own creation (the chaos-in-the-neighborhood strategy). This current debate in Knesset proves exactly that – whenever Israel f’s-up, it is the Israel’s bitches: US, UK, France etc, which gets f’ed, all the way to nuclear war.

  325. The scalpel says: • Website
    @FB

    perhaps there are too many unknowns and possible misrepresentations to ever know for sure all the facts. One thing is for sure. The Israelis carried out an aggressive military attack on a country they were not at war with. Violation of international law 101. That makes them responsible IMHO

    • Agree: FB
  326. @Miggle

    ‘Half the members of Congress are dual citizens, aren’t they?’

    ? I’m sure the percentage that are US citizens is much higher than that. Can you be a congressman if you’re not a US citizen>?

  327. @Bill65

    ‘Can The Saker tell us what right Israel has to bomb targets in Syria ? ‘

    ? Israel has the right to bomb anyone. She’s bombed Tunisia, US vessels, Iraq, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan…

    Of course Israel has the right to bomb targets in Syria. She’s Israel.

  328. @FB

    ‘Look nutcase…I’m not going to be hectored here by some fucking Korybko fanboy…

    Who’s “hectoring you” goofball? I merely pointed out that you’re full of shit.

    “the man is a grade A fucking clown…end of story…”

    Which would be more than enough to show you up, asshole.

    “Today the transfer of S300 to Syria was announced…and Putin spoke with Assad on the telephone…would the Russians be transferring this system to Syria if their air defense crews were so undisciplined as to fire into the vicinity of a high value Russian aircraft…and causing the tragedy that we have seen…?”

    LOL! So now you’re going to pretend that Putin’s not being forced/shamed into it at this point? If the system actually gets delivered this time it’s because Putin’s run out of excuses and he’s running low on political capital. BTW many people seem to believe that the tragedy was caused by jews and Putin’s refusal to stand up to them.

    “Also today, General Igor Konashenkov, the MoD spokesman, gave a presentation about the incident providing quite detailed S400 radar data about the F16 flight and their exact movements…yet this fucking clown Korybko states as a fact that the Russians ‘didn’t see the Israelis coming’…

    Yet again you misrepresent Korybko, you lying fucking assclown; no, he didn’t state it “as a fact”; he said:

    “To begin, it’s uncontested that four “Israeli” jets participated in the bombing of Latakia, but what’s not addressed is how the Russian military apparently didn’t see them coming and had no idea that they were on their way to the battlespace until receiving a phone call from their counterparts one minute prior.”

    Note the use of the word *apparently*, chump; this means he’s not stating a fact but making an inference; an inference based on what was known to him at the time. Maybe you can find a helpful adult in your neighborhood who can read what he wrote and explain it to you in child-like terms (with lots of fuck this and fuck that), commensurate with your embarrassingly limited faculties, fuckface.

    “The MoD infographic with the flight path of the F16s, which I presented earlier was released days ago…how could this fucking moron then claim the Russians didn’t see the Israelis coming…?”

    Yo shit-for-brains (and everything else) at issue is the plausibility of Korybko’s suggestion that whoever was responsible for launching an S-200 missile at an Israeli F16 may have had their judgement impaired by anger. You want to make a big deal out of an irrelevant side issue? Then start by proving that Korybko saw the information before writing the article.

    “The Syrian air defenses are NETWORKED with radar data from the S400s…that part of the integration and networking of Syrian rockets to Russian radars was explained in detail months ago…as was the fact of the intense training of Syrian SAM crews and their supervision by Russian officers…”

    That’s just a bare assertion; and you’re a liar, so prove it, asshole.

    “The decision to fire a SAM is made at the level of rocket brigade commander you fucking idiot…that’s a Colonel level position…who the fuck do you think pushes those buttons…Sargent Fucking Pepper…?”

    First, that’s just a bare assertion; and you’re a liar, so prove it asshole. Second, it’s irrelevant to the issue you fucking idiot. Third, why didn’t you raise this issue before, asshole? You’re just throwing handfuls of irrelevant shit at the wall and hoping something sticks. Whoever made the decision to launch the missile is human, right fuckface? And humans can get angry, right fuckface? And angry humans have a tendency to do things differently when they’re angry than when not, right fuckface? So it’s within the realm of plausibility that whoever made the decision to launch the missile had their judgment impaired by anger.

    “It also means that Russian officers are the ones to call the shots…since that rocket brigade commander would certainly be in direct comms with his Russian supervisors, especially around Hmeimim…”

    That’s just a bare assertion; and you’re a liar, so prove it, asshole.

    “The idea that Syrians somehow launched, by themselves, with no Russian supervision, an S200 in the area of Hmeimim, which is under Russian responsibility, and where the Russian military HQ in Syria is located is insane…”

    That’s just a bare assertion; and you’re a liar, so prove it, asshole.

    “Today’s presentation and information confirms the fact that there was no S200 launch…it is a case of ‘That’s my story and I’m sticking to it’…and I have already explained why this is a wise course of action…”

    That’s just a bare assertion; and you’re a liar, so prove it, asshole.

    “So you can take your fucking Korybko story and stick it in your ear ok…?”

    Better yet, you can take your fucking dishonest, contrary, child-like strawman argument which has nothing to do with the actual issue in dispute and have your boyfriend shove it up your ample ass.

    “I hope I am making myself very understandable now…”

    You were a mentally and morally defective asshole before, and you’re a mentally and morally defective asshole now; perfectly understandable.

    • LOL: FB
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Shahna
  329. FB says:
    @Harold Smith

    Easy there pops…don’t pop up a hemorrhage on us…

    It seems you are having difficulty figuring things out…I will give you a clue…

  330. chris says:
    @EoinW

    I had forgotten that it was Siegfried in that scene with Max; I’ll have to look for the clip. Having a chivalrous competition between Max and Siegfried, boy, how politically incorrect anything like that has become!

    “but i’ll be out of a job!”

    yeah, how true that really is and probably always was.

    The serie should definitely revived and updated to current conditions; Max would be coordinating with the DIA, the FBI to take down the president, his frenemy, instead of Siegfried would be some Saudi AlQueda members, John Brennan could play himself, McCain would be played by the guy who played the dead guy in Weekend at Bernie’s; it has the potential of becoming funnier than the original series.

  331. @FB

    You better get back to your Talmudic studies before your Mommy finds out you’re at the computer again, junior.

  332. @FB

    FB, I am very much looking forward to reading your opinion on this matter. More power to you, sir!

  333. detail says:

    The facts, most likely, will never come out. Tel Aviv blows the hell out of anyone it cares to and no one shouts our hollers. Most recently Damascus Airport.

  334. @Uncle Sam

    I hope you are right…..However, John Bolt0n and Mike Pompeo have the personality profile of a serial killer psychopath…..Combine this with Andrie Martyanov’s obviously true claim that the psychopaths running US Policy in the Middle East are highly ignorant of Russian ballistic missile capabilities…..well, I reckon that the various cockroach species inhabiting the Planet have a good chance for a very long post-human reign until the Sun burns all it’s hydrogen and a supernova shock wave burns trillions of the spawn of the cockroach breeding pair…..Mike Pompeo and Lindsay Graham……….

  335. Mr M. says:
    @James Speaks

    Russia can attack Israel when it crosses one of these lines.

    Sure, Russia can attack Israel whenever it wants to.

    But you seem to ignore the part where an attack on Israel would result in its client states(US, UK, France, Canada and Australia) dropping everything to rush to the defense of the Zionist socialist terror state and that in addition to that, it is very likely that NATO will pulled in which forces all those western states who don’t want to fight Russia to fight as part of the NATO agreement.

    Russia is strong, but I don’t think it wants to go up against one third of the world. Not even if China and Iran has its back on paper.

    No, I think Putin will play nice while spreading the truth via online and offline channels that this was an attempt to shatter the Syrian/Russian alliance via a false flag attack. His speeches may be blacklisted from the mainstream media, but people will find them as they look for the truth.

  336. Erebus says:
    @FB

    Today’s presentation and information confirms the fact that there was no S200 launch…it is a case of ‘That’s my story and I’m sticking to it’…and I have already explained why this is a wise course of action…

    Is that the same presentation (23 Sep) as the one where Konashenkov stated that the radar tracks “…. clearly showed the direction of the flight of the S-200 missile launched by the Syrian air defense system, as well as the locations of the Russian and Israeli aircraft. It is quite clear that the missile was targeting the Israeli jet.”

    BTW, he also noted that the IL20 was broadcasting for 4 minutes after it was hit.

    Has Konashenkov’s statement been gainsaid since?

    • Replies: @FB
  337. windwaves says:

    as I find out a bit more about the connection with russian/israeli Abramovich and Putin I begin to understand Putin’s reluctance in responding to shit israel continued aggression on Syria. I dicsovered indeed Abramovich has an terroris passport (i.e. israel).

    Our leaders are all owned by israel.

    • Replies: @BamBam Rubble
  338. @windwaves

    Our leaders are all owned by israel.

    Leaders? If you mean ALL of Congress, that would be more correct. If you mean 90% of Federal workers above a GS-11 pay-grade, that would also be more correct.

    At this late stage in the imperial collapse, even a substantial portion of local and state officials are controlled by Israeli money.

  339. Grumbler says:

    “In summary, we have a typical case of gross incompetence by the Israelis, followed by their usual chutzpah when caught.”

    Strongly disagree. This was not “a typical case of gross incompetence” or “chutzpah”. When it comes to zionists one should always assume malice over incompetence, and lies over Truth. If it is “typical” and “usual” israeli behavior then the smart money will bet on it being a pre-planned operation.

    The last thing anyone should ever do is give israel the benefit of the doubt. On any story.

  340. FB says:
    @Erebus

    I have already said I intend to present a full discussion of the information and graphics that have been released by the MoD…those points you mentioned, and much more, will be fully covered…

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  341. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    capable of subterfuge and duplicity with which their Western counterparts are born

    too true, Kiza. And that’s sort of my point.

    Putin’s first reaction reeked of weakness.

    how many times have I heard Russians speak that way, when Putin leaves Donbas to languish under the murderous assault by the orcs in Kyiv.

    How many times I’ve heard Russians say that – when Putin makes nice with Jewish supremacist oligarchs, or kissy-face with the likes of bibi, honoring that maggot at parades, and treating the execrable rat as if he wasn’t murderous vermin.

    Americans of sound character, (yes, there are a few) say the same thing about Trump, as he also navigates the snake infested waters of modern statecraft. ‘Why does he kiss their arses?! He’s president for Christ sake!

    But it just isn’t that easy, I would posit.

    As I’ve mentioned, Hitler also did not want war. He had to be cajoled into by slaughtering a few German citizens around Danzig. The German people were demanding he do something, and it played right into the Fiend’s Satanic schemes.

    As you know, Russians, (as well as Europeans, and Germans in particular) remember that war all too well. They remember the sheer, unmitigated evil of it. The cities of civilians burned alive. The rapes and deaths of exposure, on both sides of that evil war of the Fiend.

    And the Fiend wants more of it. (It always will, that is (((its))) nature ; )

    So that’s where I’m coming from. Yes, the deaths of those Russians must not be dishonored by waving their ultimate sacrifice away in a gesture of craven weakness.

    But this is the thing Kiza. Everything I know and see about Putin makes me believe he is not a coward or a fool.

    I sort of try to pay attention to what world leaders say and do. There hasn’t been a British or French or German or American leader in my lifetime who isn’t a $tooge of the Fiend. They all are. As was Yeltsin and so many others.

    But now there are a tiny few. Putin standing very tall among them, who it seems to me are wiling to take on the ‘unilateral power’. (the Fiend ; )

    Putin says things about unilateral power and ‘international laws’ and other things that I just never hear any of the stooges or lickspittles ever say.

    I watch him in interviews, and the guy astounds me.

    So it’s because of all of that, that I suspect he’s simply playing three of four dimensional chess here.

    Israel doesn’t just want the Golan Heights. They don’t just want to exert dominance in the region, with every intention of stealing every square inch of territory they can steal. They don’t just consider Iran and Hezbollah to be inconveniences.

    No.

    Their pathological, megalomaniacal narrative means that they must dominate, in absolute terms, the people under their boot.

    It is written.

    And as you well know, some 70 million Americans are brain-dead Christian Zionists, or media quislings, or corrupted politicians.

    France would commit national suicide in a New York minute for Israel. Ditto England. Germany is busily at work doing so as I write this.

    Men like Putin, and Trump, and the leaders of Hungary and Italy and Austria, like Marine Le Pen, all are in the crosshairs.

    IMHO, they must move very gently, and persuasively, if methodically and irrevocably.

    Their enemy is clever and insidious. Utterly unprincipled and motivated by a netherworld-type of insanity.

    Its most exultant, triumphal moment was WWII, and if there’s anything for certain, it (the Fiend) would like to do that one all over again.

    And it is these exigencies that I think motivate a man like Vlad Putin’s caution. Not cowardice or foolishness or even self-interest.

    I believe that Putin has been offered, many times indeed, all the earthly pleasures and wealth that the Fiend certainly can provide.

    But he doesn’t insult the Fiend, as we’d all like to see.

    but rather is playing him, which is much worse, from the Fiend’s pov, imho.

    But this of course could all be wishful thinking on my part.

    Thanks for your always inimitable and valuable contributions. Perhaps more so because they don’t toe any established line (at least as far as I can see)

    • Agree: chris, Cloak And Dagger
    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @L.K
    , @annamaria
  342. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik, neither of us are Russian and we agree practically 100%. The first difference may be that I see a strong reason for Russia to stand its ground and defend itself in Syria, as opposed to playing political games forever and serving as clay pigeons. It is an old trick drawing enemy’s fire onto its own troops and one would expect the Fiend to do it and then play innocent, blatantly lie and blame someone else. The second difference may be that, for me, there is a moment when one needs to shut up out of respect for own dead. Appeasing the enemy who just got your people killed is a clear sign of weakness and was possibly some adviser’s miscalculation. It was like throwing pepper into the crying eyes of a nation.

    Other than these two I would fully agree with you and although I am not a fan of Putin any more, I am not against him either (as if he would lose any sleep over it). I am sure that most Russians feel the same or similar, which he may need to lose some sleep over. There are signs that Putin’s party may now lose big in local elections in Russia. All for one dumb, miscalculated sentence.

    Russia really needs to seriously think about succession and not only because of Russia.

    Thank you for a great debate about nuances and thank you for saying that I am an independent commenter (nobody’s troll), the same as you.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  343. annamaria says:
    @AB_Anonymous

    “If Israel wanted to suck the United States into a shooting war in Syria, it would
    make sense to sink the Truman with one of it’s subs, blaming in on Russia.”
    — Please factor in the familiarity of Russians with the capability of the Jewish lot. After the Jewish Bolshevik Revolution and after the incessant whining by the “victims of Russian antisemitism” — despite the “victims” superb Russians education and despite their high-level positions in the administrative and academic hierarchy of the Soviet Union — the Russians are well aware of the degree of depravity that the “chosen” are able to reach. For now, it seems that the inoculation is working.
    Some Russian Jews are decent people that care more about Russia and Russians than about the obnoxious supremacists of the theocratic midget-state.

    • Replies: @AB_Anonymous
  344. @VICB3

    USS Truman is on maneuvers with Canadian Navy ships off the coast of Nova Scotia.

  345. L.K says:
    @Kiza

    Your post 321 is a pretty good summary of the situation, IMHO.

  346. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    I think you, like many, have a romanticized picture of president Putin.

    I don’t think that he is all some folks think he is. There are real, solid reasons to understand Putin’s limits and shortcomings.

    One reason Putin looks so good though, is the fact that most heads of state in the West are so darn terrible.
    Like this guy…

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Amber Dekstris
    , @Rurik
  347. @FB

    FB I read you analasis of fligth paths ect, and I must say I find it very compelling. I have to little knowledge of aviation to refute them in any way.

    But I do find it odd that the I- 20 supposedly travels another 40 km after being hit by a 350 kg warhead. A 350 kg warhead can sink a destroyer, it would have totally ripped the IL to pieces if detonated closely. As you notice , airplanes are terrible fragile, except maybe the Warthog or Sukhoi 22.
    n any case I appreciate the Russian response, qualm, cool and level. Russia has been at diplomatics for more than 500 years, it is not a cowboy nation.
    In any case what we have been told is not the entire truth, and it matters less. What matter is the Russian reaction to the incident. I have no doubt Russia is getting angry, they should not have poked the bear.
    The anti Russia campaign in the Western press exceeds anything I can remember from the Cold War, I was a soldier then (1977 – 1989) and it is a quite frightening, maybe because we know how this could end. We were taught and shown that.
    Anybody that wishes to know can watch “Threads” it is still out there.

    • Replies: @FB
  348. @Harold Smith

    The Russian Sukhoi shot down by Turkey, was shot down by roque elements in the Turkish aiforce operating out of Incirlik.
    You remember there was a coup attempt in Turkey, where the air force was heavily involved, ant that the coup was thwarted by Russia, and Erdogans plane was protected by Russian jets.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @Shahna
  349. @FB

    LOLOL !!

    I have not got the time to such elaborate repudiantions of senseless comments…
    But I do cheerish them!

  350. Krollchem says:
    @Herald

    The article, “Will London, Paris and Tel-Aviv be sanctioned by Moscow and Washington?” draws parallels between the IL20 incident and that of Israel, Britain and France in the 1956 Suez crisis. Furthermore, the “Secretary General of Hezbollah, Hassan Nasrallah, (stated that) none of the targets under attack were linked in any way to Iran or Hezbollah. This British-French-Israëli action had nothing to do with the international struggle against the jihadists in general and Daesh in particular. It also had no connection with the overthrow of the Syrian Arab Republic or its President, Bachar el-Assad. Its main objective was to kill military scientists, in particular the rocket specialists from the Institute of Technical Industries in Lattakia.”

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article203086.html

    Those who decry the lack of an immediate response by Russia appear to follow the John Wayne approach to conflicts. In contrast, Russia chooses to apply a systems dynamics approach that takes in game theory to formulate a response. Russia realizes that nuclear war between the major nuclear powers, including Israel, must be avoided as it would lead to a civilizational ending Nuclear Winter event.

    The game is for Russia to attack terrorists backed by Israel and Israel to attack SAA and Shia groups that are killing Israeli backed terrorists. The transfer of S-300 PMU units will allow the Syrian Army to effectively defend itself from Israel air attacks. Likewise, the Israeli agents killed by the SAA along with Al Qaeda in Syria are part of the game. The net affect appears to prevent Israeli F-16s and F-35s from attacking Syria due to Russian radar painting of the planes for the SAA forces.

    As for China, they are playing a game of GO strategy to push Western forces out of the third world. Thus, they will provide economic and technical aid to countries under attack by the West.

    Given the threat of nuclear war, both Russia and China must play the long game and let the US and its allies collapse on their own. Recently, Chris Hedges has made the point the America will collapse within 10 years unless there is a revolution.
    https://www.truthdig.com/articles/the-coming-collapse/

    Then there is the Club of Rome studies that are even more depressing concerning the long term resource competition conflicts!

    Finally, for those who blame Jews for everything , remember that Zionists are anti-Jews -see
    Zionists follow false god (in French)

  351. @L.K

    https://youtu.be/mJ1j2hNbSXI

    That video clearly shows that the response to Trump’s claim was murmuring rather than laughing or mocking, and that the laughter was a response to Trump’s response to the murmuring.

    • Replies: @renfro
  352. Lieutenant-général Anatoly Surtsukov: « Il y aura désormais un ciel fermé en Syrie. Il restera ouvert que pour les Russes et les Syriens
    Il a également dit que la Russie supprimerait à côté de la navigation par satellite mer Méditerranée Syrie, les systèmes radar embarqués et des avions de combat de communication attaquer des cibles sur le territoire du pays.

    https://sukhoiflanker.blogspot.com/2018/09/lieutenant-general-anatoly-surtsukov-il.html

    Lieutenant-General Anatoly Surtsukov: “There will now be a closed sky in Syria. It will remain open only for Russians and Syrians
    He also said that Russia would abolish next to Syria’s Mediterranean Sea satellite navigation, embedded radar systems and communication fighter planes attack targets on the country’s territory.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  353. roamer says:
    @Erebus

    Surely, how long/far it flew after being hit would depend on the damage it sustained, and we know nothing of that.

    Konashenkov said in one of his presentations that the IL-20 remained in radio contact after it was hit for another 4 minutes. I’m quoting from memory, need to retrieve the video,

    • Replies: @Erebus
  354. Erebus says:
    @roamer

    … IL-20 remained in radio contact after it was hit for another 4 minutes…

    Yes, I saw that later and noted so at Comment #345.

    As 4 minutes is a lifetime in those circumstances, I’m surprised they didn’t bail out (though I have no idea how easily one jumps out of an IL20). Perhaps the pilot thought he could bring it home, or at least over land, when something catastrophic happened.

    The Israelis circled the area where the IL20 went down for over 20 minutes, but nobody shot them down. I’m guessing that the loss of the IL20 shut the whole AD system down and/or the Russians put up a lot of SAR traffic looking for it.

  355. @Den Lille Abe

    “The Russian Sukhoi shot down by Turkey, was shot down by roque elements in the Turkish aiforce operating out of Incirlik.”

    Isn’t that almost always the case? Damn those rogue elements among all the angels…

  356. Vendetta says:
    @FB

    While you’re at it I’d also enjoy a good technical explainer and radar jamming and electronic warfare, I’ve found it hard to come across one that gives more than the barest of details.

    • Replies: @FB
  357. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    “Men like Putin, and Trump, and the leaders of Hungary and Italy and Austria, like Marine Le Pen, all are in the crosshairs.
    IMHO, they must move very gently, and persuasively, if methodically and irrevocably.
    Their enemy is clever and insidious. Utterly unprincipled and motivated by a netherworld-type of insanity.”
    – Agree. The enemy is unable to appreciate life. — They are subhumans of a reptiloid kind.

    • Agree: Rurik
  358. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    The second difference may be that, for me, there is a moment when one needs to shut up out of respect for own dead. Appeasing the enemy who just got your people killed is a clear sign of weakness and was possibly some adviser’s miscalculation.

    Excellent point Kiza. As usual.

    As for Putin per se, I’ll delve into that a bit more in my response to L.K.

    Regards

  359. annamaria says:
    @SUKHOI FLANKER VARIANTS

    “There will now be a closed sky in Syria. It will remain open only for Russians and Syrians
    He also said that Russia would abolish next to Syria’s Mediterranean Sea satellite navigation, embedded radar systems and communication fighter planes attack targets on the country’s territory.”
    — Excellent. Finally, the time came for this decision.

  360. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    I think you, like many, have a romanticized picture of president Putin.

    perhaps, and if so.. mea culpa.

    There are real, solid reasons to understand Putin’s limits and shortcomings.

    no doubt

    I certainly don’t consider him any kind of demigod. But nor do I consider him a demagogue.

    One reason Putin looks so good though, is the fact that most heads of state in the West are so darn terrible.

    I’m a student of history L.K., as are you, it seems to me.

    The reason I admire and respect and hold out great hope for V. Putin, is due more to the leaders that have come before, than what we have today. Particularly the leaders of the 20th century.

    If I compare Vlad Putin to some of the leaders of Russia in the 20th century, yes, his stature by comparison seems nearly God-like. If for no other reason than men like Stalin were Satanic, insofar as a human being can be.

    But even Stalin’s evil pales in comparison to men like FDR, or especially Woodrow Wilson.

    In Wilson, we have a man who was elected to protect and advance the interests of the average American, and in particular; to keep America out of the fratricidal war that Europe’s insane leaders had sacrificed tens of millions of its young men to die horrifically in, and for no sane reason.

    But what does Wilson do? He funds Trotsky, and facilitates his travel to Russia, in order to send Russia spiraling into the abyss, certainly knowing such a monstrous and murderous fiend like Trotsky would one day wreak his evil outside of Russia’s borders, and only a fool would think his evil would never menace the people of the US, who had elected Wilson as their protector, only to have that man betray them in the most sinister ways.

    Wilson also handed the keys to the US Treasury to the world’s most avaricious and diabolical men.

    And by doing so, assured a pall of horrors over the people of the planet for generations, perhaps ultimately culminating in Orwell’s boot, stamping on humanities’ face for eternity.

    Then of course was Wilson’s ruse of ‘Fourteen Points’, intended to betray Germany into slavery. And set in motion WWII.

    I don’t know of a more execrable minion of the Fiend than Woodrow Wilson, who today is heralded as one of America’s greatest statesmen and presidents, by Satan’s spawn, who rule over my nation as if “by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire.”

    So my opinion of Putin is very much a consequence of looking at him in comparison to other leaders.

    Just compare him to Yeltsin for instance.

    The people of Russia had just suffered generations of Jewish supremacist imposed Soviet slavery, genocide, terror and oppression. They’re only mitigation to these miseries was that at least the government fed and housed them.

    Then along comes Yeltsin, and they decide to repudiate communism and become capitalists!

    weeeee

    Which means that the people go from generations of Jewish supremacist domination and misery, to a new system of Jewish supremacist domination and starvation!

    weeeee

    Until one man seems to have wrested control of that great nation from these demons, and sent the worst of these Jewish supremacist scum to hard labor, or exile in London.

    And now, the Russian middle class is slowly growing. Their military and national pride are once again ascendant. But most of all, L.K., is that I suspect that the Russian people today, under Putin, have something that I do not have here in the West.

    An ineffable, ever so precious… sense of hope.

    (now I have to go and can’t even edit this for typos, but forgive them, I just wanted to reply to you before I had to go)

    Cheers.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  361. Pandora says:

    To the “saker”:

    I think you should read “Israel’s Sacred Terrorism” …

    https://msuweb.montclair.edu/~furrg/essays/rokach.html

    …to realize that this was (“highly likely”) not a SNAFU but a dirty Machiavellian game … here is an excerpt (self-critical reflections by Moshe Sharett from January 11, 1961, which describe the moral depravity of the Israeli military,

    “The phenomenon that has prevailed among us for years and years is that of insensitivity to acts of wrong … to moral corruption…. For us, an act of wrong is in itself nothing serious, we wake up to it only if the threat of a crisis or a grave result the loss of a position, the loss of power or influence is involved. We don’t have a moral approach to moral problems but a pragmatic approach to moral problems. . . . Once, Israeli soldiers murdered a number of Arabs for reasons of blind revenge … and no conclusion was drawn from that, no one was demoted, no one was removed from office.

    Then there was Kafr Qasim* . . . those responsible have not drawn any conclusions. This, however, does not mean that public opinion, the army, the police, have drawn no conclusion, their conclusion was that Arab blood can be freely shed. And then came the amnesty for those of Kafr Qasim, and some conclusions could be drawn again, and I could go on like this.

    All this must bring about revulsion in the sense of justice and honesty in public opinion; it must make the State appear in the eyes of the world as a savage state that does not recognize the principles of justice as they have been established and accepted by contemporary society.”

    (Exactly)

    Besides, we should not forget that Israel is not acting alone, after the orchestrated “Suez Crisis” (1956) it became clear, that the colonial powers France and the UK have secretly collaborated with the Zionists to destroy Nasser, Arab nationialism and drive a wedge between the US and the Arab states (it supported in those days) – see
    The Protocol of Sèvres,1956: Anatomy of a War Plot by Avi Shlaim (available online) -

    and their colonial mind-set still drives their foreign policy in the ME. The point is, that only Israel is visible as the aggressor here (and rightly so) but the insidious role of France and Britain in fostering violence and terror in Syria is hardly ever mentioned. It seems to me that Israel is still being used as a kind of (im)moral lightning-rod by the French and British imperialists (that is why Israel enjoys complete legal impunity…)

    http://www.voltairenet.org/article203086.html

  362. @annamaria

    You may want to redirect your comment to the author (comm. #38) of the statement
    you’re actually answering… lol)

  363. renfro says:
    @Amber Dekstris

    Trump is an embarrassment to the US.

    • Replies: @Avery
  364. Avery says:
    @renfro

    {Trump is an embarrassment to the US.}

    Give me a break.

    Which recent US POTUS has not been an embarrassment?

    Islamophile Obama bowing (!) to the disgusting, vile Saudi king?
    The man-child Gee Dubya?
    Slick Billy getting blown in the Oval Office, the soiled blue dress, plus some cigar entertainment?
    ……….
    How about Micron marrying his “mother”: not embarrassing?
    How about Merkel-hanum, opening the floodgates of Germany, and working diligently to “disappear” the German ethnos?

    As to Trump:

    People can call it what they want, but I am glad Trump is an “embarrassment”: the fact that the domestic enemies of American people and America are foaming at the mouth with hysterical rage is an indication to me that Trump is doing something right.

    The MSM filth calling Trump an “embarrassment” want another Obama to bow and scrape to Islamofascists, apologize to everyone for the ‘sins’ of America, and bow and scrape to medieval savages.

    One more thing:

    So far “embarrassment” Trump has killed/murdered far, far fewer innocent foreigners than Obama, or Bush-the-lesser, or Slick Billy,……

    • Replies: @Shahna
  365. Shahna says:
    @FB

    [The Israeli jets could not have fired at the Ilyushin, since they were flying in the opposite direction at the time the airplane was hit...and it is impossible to aim a missile at a target behind your airplane...]

    Your entire argument is based on the fact that the Russian MOD lied – yet for this bit you assume they are telling the truth…. Why?

  366. Shahna says:
    @Avery

    So far “embarrassment” Trump has killed/murdered far, far fewer innocent foreigners than Obama, or Bush-the-lesser, or Slick Billy,……

    You sure about that?

    Trump: A bombed dropped every 12 minutes of every day, most of them killing 98% non-targets. First 8 minutes – worth the watch.

  367. Shahna says:
    @Den Lille Abe

    Perhaps it was – but the Turkish govt owned it. Virulently and loudly too.

  368. jiri says:
    @anon

    Great analogy. Just needs a few minor tweaks:

    The robber is the bank manager’s wife’s cousin and has the tacit approval of the bank manager to rob the bank because, you know, banks’ manager’s wife’s cousins have their needs.

    The bank manager has told the robber that he will get the bank’s security to stand down but he cannot be responsible if a customer or staff has a gun or penknife to defend themselves.

    The robber has done this successfully for more than 200 times in the last 18 months.

    Just this once, things don’t go as planned and the Bank manager’s Rolls Royce gets burnt to the ground.

    The bank manager is furious and tells his wife’s cousin that it is all his fault and that from now on he is only allowed to rob the bank with the explicit knowledge and approval of the bank manager otherwise the bank’s security will gun him down.

    If I were the banks manager’s wife’s cousin I would be furious.

    Wouldn’t you?

    After all, I have a right to maintain my lifestyle and it isn’t cheap.

  369. Shahna says:
    @J

    Attacking a sovereign state with airstrikes and mortars is not self defense.
    It’s “attacking a sovereign state,” ie., aggression.

    The meanings of words and their connotations don’t change “just because it’s Israel” and there is no pre-emptive right to self-defense. Now, when Israel attacks Syria, Syria can (and will) hit back. Now, the IAF will no longer be targeting only the defenseless.

    Perhaps Israel should hope Syria does not assume that Israeli pre-emptive right to self-defense for themselves? And shoot down Israeli war planes on take-off because “they’re coming to bomb us and we have a right to self-defense?”

    Perhaps Israel should stick to bombing Gazan homes and children for their “self-defense?”

  370. Shahna says:
    @Harold Smith

    “To begin, it’s uncontested that four “Israeli” jets participated in the bombing of Latakia, but what’s not addressed is how the Russian military apparently didn’t see them coming and had no idea that they were on their way to the battlespace until receiving a phone call from their counterparts one minute prior.”

    Ackshully, that’s a stupid statement, one directed to misdirect or made by someone who can’t add two and two….

    This is what I got from that briefing….:
    Israel notified the Russians they were off to bomb north Syria. Russia moved their Ilyushin south out the way. It was only when the Israelis got to Latakia, (ie. west Syria) that they notified of their intentions to bomb west Syria and started that bombing less than one minute later.

    So of course the Russians saw the Israeli jets – and were watching them – they were off the west coast of Syria on their way north. It was only when they started bombing the west that the Russians realised they’d been lied to – too late for their re-directed airplane.

    Perhaps folk should look at a map occasionally?
    And if someone’s analysis makes such a basic mistake, I, for one, am unlikely to give any of it much credence….
    —————-
    What the MOD did not address is this:
    •Why did the Syrians fire at Israeli jets when the Ilyushin was in or coming into the same area? Just as the Israelis could not have missed seeing it, neither could the Syrians.
    •Why did the Syrians fire only ONE missile at FOUR Israeli jets? Surely they’d pop off a whole bunch of them? Bit sticky that last one – their S-400 radar data distinctly shows only ONE Syrian missile….

  371. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Shahna

    Who said they fired just one? I have read multiple accounts stating that several SAM were fired

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Shahna
  372. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    I don’t know of a more execrable minion of the Fiend than Woodrow Wilson, who today is heralded as one of America’s greatest statesmen and presidents, by Satan’s spawn, who rule over my nation…

    This is quite a common pattern. If one serves the Satan’s spawn, one is idolised. Ron has made a fantastic effort here to dispel those historical biases. My own view of the world has changed much from that of a year ago.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  373. @Shahna

    “Ackshully, that’s a stupid statement, one directed to misdirect or made by someone who can’t add two and two….”

    That’s not my statement; that’s a quote from the subject article by Korybko. I don’t think he intended to “misdirect”; regardless, it’s not very relevant to his conclusion, IMO.

    “Why did the Syrians fire at Israeli jets when the Ilyushin was in or coming into the same area? Just as the Israelis could not have missed seeing it, neither could the Syrians.”

    Addressing this question was the whole point of Korybko’s long-winded essay. And he proffers the theory that the Syrian air defense crew may have had their judgement impaired by anger.

    Korybko suggests that they might have been pissed off about the Idlib deal (apparently seeing it as an unacceptable sellout by Putin). And in my argument above I added my thought that the Idlib deal might have been “the last straw” for many Syrians (preceded by Putin’s refusal to arm Syria with S-300 systems while giving it to Turkey and Saudi Arabia).

    So while I don’t necessarily agree with everything Korybko said in his essay, the notion that the Syrian air defense crew may have had their judgement “impaired” by anger seems plausible to me. (And in one of my comments above I compared it to the actions of normally reasonable and safe driver who gets so pissed off by an aggressive driver that he does risky things he normally wouldn’t do).

  374. Erebus says:
    @Shahna

    Adding to your questions…

    •Why did the Syrians hold fire while the Israeli jets circled above the IL20′s crash site for 20+ (iirc) minutes?

    • Replies: @Shahna
    , @Shahna
  375. Erebus says:
    @The Scalpel

    Who said they fired just one?

    The point of staying out over the Med is to put the Israeli jets at standoff range, and so the Syrian could fire SAMs only at incoming missiles.

    My read is that only at the point of the “close encounter” did an Israeli come within S200 range.
    That’s what makes it look like a deliberate set up, and why the Russians are so pissed. It came in specifically to draw fire, and then ducked behind the IL20.

  376. FB says:
    @Bombercommand

    Bomber, I’ve completed my examination of the new information that was presented by Russian MoD spokesman General Igor Konashenkov on Sept 23′rd…

    What follows here is an analysis based on physical principles, as in my initial comment here…

    The conclusion is the same, the scenario of an S200 hitting the Russian Il20 recon aircraft is not possible, as presented…in fact the subsequent information only buttresses that conclusion…

    Let us begin by examining an image of the S400 radar display that was shown during the briefing…it is seen during this RT report here…

    The image and accompanying text are self-explanatory…the timestamp at the top of the radar display [technically a plan presentation indicator, or PPI] is clearly marked as 22:01:27

    We see that the S200 missile, circled in red, appears quite close…maybe twice the distance of the F16 circled in yellow to the left of the IL20, circled in green…

    The problem is that the missile DOES NOT HIT THE IL20 FOR ANOTHER MINUTE AND A HALF…93 seconds to be precise…

    Here is the screen grab from the Konashenkov presentation…

    That S200 missile has a minimum speed of 700 meters per second…and a maximum speed of 2,500 m/s [2.5 km/s]…as mentioned previously, it is one of the fastest SAM rockets in the world…and its liquid fuel engine can be throttled, which is why it has such a wide speed range…[unlike modern solid fuel rocket motors]…

    The simple math is that 93 seconds of flight time for that S200 means at least 65 km…and a maximum flight distance of 232 km…

    Now does that radar screen look like that rocket is 200 km away…or even 50…?

    Then how far is that F16 that is supposed to have been hiding in its radar shadow…?

    It is preposterous…

    Now let us talk a little about radar…and how close two airplanes would have to be in order to show up as one ‘pip’ on the radar screen…this is a slightly technical discussion that I have tried to make understandable to the layman…let us start with some radar basics…in the illustration below we see the two main radar measurements…bearing and range…

    We see that two aircraft can be either at the same range, or distance from the radar antenna, but at different positions on the compass rose [azimuth]…if they are far apart as shown here then it is certainly no problem to tell them apart…

    In the illustration on the right we see two aircraft on the same bearing, but at different ranges…basically one behind the other [ie a little farther out, but in the same direction]…

    Another point to keep in mind is that space through which airplanes fly is in three dimensions…so we need to think about another concept called ‘slant range’…which is simply the diagonal line from the ground radar to the airplane at a height and distance…as seen here…

    This is not that important, but just something to keep in mind…

    Now we get to the important part which is understanding just how close two airplanes need to be, in order for their radar return to merge into a single pip…ie radar masking…this is not difficult to understand, as it involves very basic physics…it is also something that is well known to professional pilots because the airspace we fly in is a busy place…more about that in a moment, but first how it actually works…

    Below is a figure with a text box that explains Bearing Resolution…this is a measure of just how close two airplanes need to be to one another while at the same range [ie same distance from the radar antenna]…but one slightly behind the other…

    We see that even with air traffic control [ATC] radar a bearing resolution of 150 meters [~500 feet] is going to show two separate aircraft on the radar display, at a distance [range] of 100 km…

    This is nothing new to professional pilots…here is a fighter pilot talking about the subject…

    ‘Fighter aircraft routinely fly close to give a false indication of numbers (I used to do it), but close formation is rarely necessary.

    The basic resolution angle formula for a radar is 1.22*wavelength/diameter = angular resolution in radians (circular antenna). For long range Air Traffic Control, typical wavelength is 0.15m, diameter of aerial is 14m. So at 60nm this gives a distance resolution of about 3/4 of a mile. Real antenna have various physical and electronic devices to improve this, so in practice staying at less than 1/10 of this, say 150m, usually means no detection.

    150m is the standard FAA specification for its long range radars. We used to use about 75m since we liked to stay “numbers disguised’ till about 30nm range.

    Now I don’t want to get too technical, but a surface to air missile radar is going to be much more accurate than an ATC radar…for one thing, they operate at much higher frequencies [6 GHz for the S200] compared to 1.4 GHz for ATC…so the basic physics means a finer resolution…this is of course a must because how are you going to guide a missile to a moving aircraft unless you can pinpoint its location precisely…?

    The second kind of resolution is Range Resolution…

    This is a measure of just how close two aircraft that are on the same bearing line can get to one another [with one being slightly farther than the other], while still showing up as two separate pips on the PPI display…

    Here again, we are using standard ATC radar as the benchmark…we see again that the resolution is about 150 meters, or about 500 feet…here it does not matter how far away the targets are [unlike bearing resolution]…

    If we refer now to the above illustration on slant range, we would see that even hiding perfectly behind an airplane at the same slant…you would need to be closer than 500 ft to fool even an ATC radar…

    Now let us take a closer look at the S200 radar…Carlo Kopp, who holds a doctorate in electrical engineering and has decades of aerospace and defense industry experience, is probably the foremost Western expert on Russian air defense systems and combat aircraft…

    He has a very good technical article on the S200 radar, the 5N62 ‘Square Pair’…here…

    The S200 was the longest-range SAM system in the world until 2009, when a new type of S400 rocket exceeded its range…it is a highly sophisticated system…and even today in the right hands is deadly…we recall that the Syrians shot down an Israeli F16 last February, in Israeli airspace…in 1986 the Libyan air defense using S200 shot down an American F111 fighter-bomber… a very advanced aircraft, killing both pilots…

    Now the really interesting thing is that as capable as the S200 is [it's not 'old junk' like a lot of un-knowledgeable commenters in media say]…but the S200 can be upgraded to use the S300 and even S400 radars, as well as a new and modernized seeker in the missile head…Dr Kopp explains…

    ‘Interfaces and software are available for the S-300PMU2 Favorit / SA-20 Gargoyle and S-400 Triumf / SA-21 to control the S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna / SA-5 Gammon and its 5N62 Square Pair engagement radar.

    In this arrangement, an SA-20/21 [S300/400] system with its high power aperture and highly jam resistant acquisition and engagement radars prosecutes an engagement, but rather than launching its organic 48N6 series missile rounds, it uses the SA-5 Gammon round instead.’

    In other words the S200 rockets are slaved to the S400 radar…which guides the rocket all the way to its target…it is basically an S400 system that uses the S200 rockets

    I had already talked about the liquid-fuel S200 rocket, which, in my opinion is not outclassed by the new S300/400 rockets which use solid fuel and are basically a firecracker with a nozzle at the bottom…

    The S200 rocket can be throttled which gives the operator a great degree of control…with the big modern radars of the S400 [and S300] controlling this rocket, it is surely a very capable combination…it is certain that the Syrian air defense has been upgraded in this way…the Russian MoD announced some time ago that the modernization and integration of the Syrian IADS with the Russian IADS in Syria had been completed…

    We also saw last April with the US led missile strike on Syria that the Syrian air defense appeared to have performed quite well…although each side gave conflicting accounts of the story, with the American claiming that all 100 missiles hit their mark…the story is not believable, as I debunked it on this website at the time here…

    So we know that the Syrian air defense has been upgraded and integrated into the formidable Russian S400 and S300 systems in Syria…this is in fact a known upgrade to the S200 system as described above…

    So what we have then, if we are to believe that a ‘Syrian’ S200 shot down that high-value Russian recon plane, is that those same S400 radars that are now used in the Konashenkov presentation to show us what ‘happened’…would in fact be those same S400 radars that would have aimed and guided that S200 round to its target…

    Here is another screen grab from the Konashenkov presentation…showing the location of the unit that supposedly fired the S200…the 49′th Air defense Regiment…located right near the Russian air base at Hmeimim…and where all those S400s and their big radars are located…

    Another point to consider is that any S200 shot would involve launching a pair of rockets, not one…that is standard operating procedure…to ensure a higher probability of kill…yet we have only one S200 flying all by itself…and it takes a minute and a half for this hypersonic rocket to cover the 10 km or so that is shown on the radar display…?

    We note also in all those graphics that the French missile ship is there, not far from the scene…

    Now the subject of gross human error cannot be ruled out…it is always possible that a major screw-up can happen…in June 2003 the US MIM104 Patriot air defense system was involved in three friendly fire incidents…one British Tornado jet was shot down, killing both crew on board…

    In another incident, a Patriot locked onto a USAF F16, which then fired back but missed…

    Incidentally, we note here the tally of the S200 [two enemy kills, one Israeli F16, and a USAF F111] versus the Patriot [one kill, but friendly]…over the course of their combat history…

    In any case, it is always possible that something went horribly wrong on that day in Syria…but even if that is the case, the incident surely did not happen as presented…that is simply impossible…

    • Replies: @Krollchem
    , @Kiza
    , @Erebus
  377. FB says:
    @Den Lille Abe

    Thanks for your comment…glad my discussion of flight physics in relation to the Il20 story is of some use…

    I have recently posted an in-depth analysis of the subsequent information that was presented by the Gen Konashenkov on Sept 23…you can find that here…

  378. FB says:
    @Vendetta

    I have posted an explanation of radar and the idea of ‘radar masking’ here…along with additional discussions of the Il20 issue…

  379. Shahna says:
    @The Scalpel

    The Russian MOD – the S-400 radar data slides they showed us showed only 1 missile.

    Did they remove the others? Then I’d ask – what else did they doctor?

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  380. Shahna says:
    @Erebus

    I know it’s not your statement, but Korybko’s.
    My apologies if you thought I meant you were stupid.
    But it’s still a stupid statement – no way the Russians didn’t see them – ‘cos they did. The Russians just didn’t expect the Yisraelis to fire on the west because they’d told them they were on their way to bomb the north. Expecting them to pass on by – bit of a scramble when they opened up I’d say.

    Addressing this question was the whole point of Korybko’s long-winded essay. And he proffers the theory that the Syrian air defense crew may have had their judgement impaired by anger.

    LOL – I raised that possibility on The Saker right after it happened and got very short shrift. Actually, I went one further and suggested the possibility that the Syrians targeted it deliberately, not accidentally. … Let’s just say it wasn’t a popular suggestion.

  381. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    If one serves the Satan’s spawn, one is idolised

    It can not be otherwise.

    Perfidious (from the land known as Perfidious Albion), murderous war criminal extraordinaire- Tony Blair, is exalted to high position and lavished with luxuriant lucre for his fealty and serial betrayals of his nation and people.

    Were Toady Blair to fall on hard times, or even (unthinkably) be charged with his myriad and egregious crimes against humanity, then what kind of message would that send to the next sniveling little lickspittle of Zion?

    So yea, that’s sort of why the war hag will never be held to account, or any of the other murderous little minions.

    Dick Cheney, the Bush crime family, hell the entire 535 cretins in the fecal congress. In fact the list is so long, that’s part of their protection. The entire top echelons of the CIA, FBI, NSA, MI6, and on and on and on.

    Just look at where the former head of the NSA is today:

    https://chertoffgroup.com/about-us/our-team/244-michael-hayden

    and yes, it is that Michael Chertoff

    So it’s no mystery why they lionize the worst criminals on the planet, it’s to lure more compromised men and women to do the same.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  382. Shahna says:
    @Erebus

    Almost – for a moment I thought – “Another question!”
    But then, people being people, it’s quite possible (even likely) that EVERYONE stopped shooting everything when the plane went down. … More important things to deal with.

    I haven’t heard that the Israelis kept on bombing? If they did then I’d expect returning fire.
    A – “Sheesh those buggers are STILL shooting us – get them!”

  383. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Shahna

    They only show that one missile because that is the important one. They did not say they were showing all the missiles

    • Replies: @Shahna
  384. Krollchem says:
    @FB

    If the French frigate carried Aster-30 missiles the range would be about 120 km which would allow it to hit the IL20.

    https://www.mbda-systems.com/product/aster-15-30/

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aster_(missile_family)

    Since the Aster-30 fragmentation warhead is much smaller that the S-200 it might be possible for the IL20 to continue flying for another 5 minutes as claimed by the Russian MOD. As you point out, the S-200 warhead would have taken out the IL20 immediately due to the 217kg warhead weight. Otherwise, the Israeli F-16 could have hit the IL20 with an air-to-air missile.

    In either case, Russia did not want to destroy the Israeli planes or the French frigate as this would possibly resulted in all out war and Nuclear Winter -what game theory calls lose-lose. FUKUS called the Russian bluff what let to the upgrades to the Syrian air defense systems S-200, S-300, Buk-M2 and Pantsir-s1 + electronic jamming systems. This will allow the Syrians to press the button leaving the Russians out of the loop.

    Wouldn’t Russia also have limited recon plane range so as to avoid a replay of the IL20 shootdown?

    Your thoughts?

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @FB
  385. Shahna says:
    @The Scalpel

    The MOD showed us the S-400 radar data.
    If they removed the other missiles (because they were unimportant) then they doctored the images. If they doctored the images, then it’s fair to ask “What else did they doctor out – or in?”

    • Replies: @Erebus
    , @Kiza
  386. @Krollchem

    If France is the culprit (no one claims Israel shot the IL down and if an internet physicist can expose the French, surely the Russian MoD can as well), why would the Russians blame, even weakly with mixed messages from Putin and his generals, the Israelis instead of the French? Organized Jewry controls America and Russia’s own relationship with Israel is complicated, so it would be much easier politically for Russia to blame France. (HT to Vojkan.). We’re not getting all the information, obviously, but the French theory doesn’t make a lot of sense.

    • Replies: @Mike P
  387. Mike P says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Well, anyone can speculate on this – the Russians may have preferred blaming the Israelis because (a) whoever fired the shots, Israel sure called them, (b) blaming the Israelis gave political cover for fortifying the air defences.

    It seems likely that the Russians had planned to close the Syrian airspace anyway, and they were nimble enough to not let a good crisis go to waste. Their deal with the devil (Satanyahoo) had allowed them to retake southern Syria, right up to the demarcation line; it thus had served its purpose. On the other hand, the West had made it clear that it would not allow the planned retaking of Idlib. Thus, the Russians had to put this action on hold. In order to keep the initiative on the ground, they had to close the airspace. This will also enable the Iranians and Hezbollah to build up their strength, which they will likely be allowed to do in exchange for joining the upcoming fight at Idlib.

    All of this will provoke the Israelis, so the more they can be put on the defensive by getting blamed for the entire mess, the better.

    Again, just my speculative attempt at a plausible scenario – I don’t have any privileged information of any kind, but I can see how the Russians might prefer to tell a tale.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @FB
  388. @Mike P

    Of course, Israel is the main force behind all of this and whatever the French role, they were just doing what they were told. But if the actual missile did come from their frigate, this is all the Russians could unambiguously prove and they can’t talk about Jewish power yet. Given the unpopularity of Macron’s government (and the generally negative view many Americans have of France), it would be much easier for the Russians to go after the French. But you are right, much of this is still (and will doubtless remain) unclear.

  389. BTW, even Trump’s opponents in America were forced to admit (during the debate over NATO funding last year), that an attack on a NATO member only obligates America to come to that member’s aid *somehow*, e.g. via economic aid and such. There is NO obligation to assist militarily (although doubtless there would be great political pressure to do so).

    NATO could doubtless drive the Russians out of Syria, but only at great cost that the member countries cannot bear politically right now. So to be honest it’s not entirely clear what game the Zio-Americans are playing here, apart from harassment and causing Putin domestic problems.

    • Replies: @Mike P
  390. Mike P says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    So to be honest it’s not entirely clear what game the Zio-Americans are playing here

    My impression is that right now there is no unity of purpose among them – notwithstanding all the warlike rhetoric from Bolton, Bibi etc., they are paralysed by infighting between a “war party” and a “peace party.” This causes hapless, bumbling moves like the downing of the IL20 or the terror attack inside Iran. These are not part of a clear strategy vis-a-vis Russia or Iran; the only recognisable motif is that the war party wanted to force the peace party’s hand. Happily, so far at least it didn’t work.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  391. @Mike P

    In this case I am inclined to believe it was an accident (like Putin says), although the Israelis were clearly to blame. Whatever they were really doing, they probably decided to push the envelope and use the IL as a shield for some reason (maybe impromptu intel gathering), assuming the Syrian air defenders wouldn’t chance shooting at them with a Russian plane so close in the vicinity. They clearly screwed up, and I am not sure even if they got Russia to fire on the French ship, that this would start the war they so desperately want. But it’s really just speculation. The main point is that the Russians continue to proceed wisely.

    • Agree: Mike P
  392. Erebus says:
    @Shahna

    If they removed the other missiles… then they doctored the images.

    Not necessarily.

    The radar graphics are likely to be layered, with different info on different layers allowing one to focus on the info of interest without data overload. CADs & PDFs like that are commonly generated for planning & presentation of complex systems.

    I have no idea about Russian battlefield info systems, but for reporting & analysis purposes it would make a lot of sense to have built that capability into the system. Say, a “Base” layer, which would be the geographical area covered by the integrated radar system (or some portion thereof). Overlaying that would be layers of ships, hostile aircraft, friendly aircraft, incoming missiles, outgoing missiles, or additional data on any of them, etc.

    So, turning irrelevant layers on/off isn’t “doctoring the image” in the Photoshopping/airbrushing sense of term. “Doctoring” in that sense is very unlikely, given how many radar systems were active in the area and how easily the Russians would be called on such an obvious fabrication.

  393. FB says:
    @Mike P

    Good comment…let’s not forget that Idlib is obviously a red line for the scumbag west…if you look at the number of US and Nato ships in the eastern Med it is huge…we’re not talking little pinprick strikes here but an all out shock and awe…

    Trump would rather not go to war in Syria but he has no choice now…his hands are tied…

    If Putin had not smartly reached that DMZ deal with Erdogan…all hell would have broken loose…as it is the ‘hotheads’ had to get a cheap shot in anyway…I’m leaning toward a British air to air shot that took down the Ilyushin…

    • Agree: Mike P
  394. FB says:
    @Krollchem

    Yes that S200 warhead is huge…plus its kinetic energy at 2.5 km per second…if an S200 hit that plane they would be toast immediately…never mind a radio call saying we’re on fire…

    I agree it was a cheap shot knowing the Russkies weren’t going to start WW3…I suspect the fucking hothead Brits…they’ve been making a lot of noise lately with the Skripals etc…plus they’re neck deep with the US deep state that is trying to pull a putsch against Trump…

  395. @Herald

    The Russians are apparently just doing what they can where they can. The Soviets were in a stronger position against the West 50 years ago, and didn’t go to war over a conflict between Syria and Israel. I can’t see Putin changing the script, except that he’s not going to back away from Syria like the Soviets did. The Israelis can’t do anything about the Russian presence in the region, other than try to push the U.S. into a wider war against perceived Russian allies Iran and Syria, and the U.S. has declined the Israeli requests for decades. What’s changed? Everyone seems to be in favor of endless, low-level proxy wars.

  396. Kiza says:
    @FB

    As others have said before, a lot of technical mambo-jumbo to confuse and force the reader to defer to your knowledge (as the owner of physics), even calling upon a higher PhD authority. Some of your analysis is right but some of it is plain wrong, such as that higher radar frequency automatically translates into higher resolution and then even distance-wise (I had a good laugh at that one). You are simply wrong that S200 missile’s own radar could distinguish between the two planes in the same beam cone, and this is where you bamboozle the reader with your “physics” the most. Plus you mix items of information from different sources and from different statements, and because there are inconsistencies, you declare that you were right. It is much more likely that the information supplied was not quite right, but this does not make you right in your conclusion.

    Another silly is that you state or imply that S200 missile was or could have been guided by S400 as if this was relevant and so on.

    Simply, some worthwhile questions arise from your text, but it is only another attempt to prove that you were right all along not a proof that something else shot the Russian plane down.

    On a personal level, your problem is that you are too self-confident and you rubbish and call names anybody who disagrees with you. I would love to see how long you would last in any work environment, if you could control yourself. No need to reply, I know what it would be. I read this comment of yours only because we have started this discussion before, but no more because I am a “coward” (as you call it) to have eliminated you from my screen.

    • Replies: @FB
  397. Kiza says:
    @Shahna

    I have never observed an S400 surviellance radar or targeting radar screen, but the older radars did not present objects as sexy graphics, as in this Russian screen presentation. You do want to present as raw the signal as you get from the receiver, to avoid being mislead by what you see, intentionally or unintentionally. If you use a digital-style screen (possible on a very modern radar), you would probably still try to represent the amount of the reflection by the size of the object on the screen, making a stealthy plane a tinny plane icon. Even with Moving Target Indication (using Doppler effect to remove all slow-moving objects from the screen), radar screens are quite noisy because there are so many antenna side-lobes and so many false reflections from the “loose” radar radio signal.

    Therefore, since my radar knowledge is from the analogue era, I would be inclined to guess that this screen presentation was not directly off the S400 radar screen, that it was based on the data from it whilst the graphics were overlaid for clarity.

    The French AS30 missile would have had a smaller radar reflection than the big S200 missile, but I do agree that the Russian MoD would have had to remove it or not put an icon on it to fit the theory that some are flogging. Why would have the MoD mentioned that the French frigate fired missiles if they were trying to hide the French shoot-down of the Russian plane?

  398. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Yes, I should have said:

    If one serves the Satan’s spawn, one is given high positions, is idolised (fame) and is showered with money (probably sex too), all the usual Satan’s temptations.

    What an amazingly succinct graphic, loved it. Really, no questions left.

  399. FB says:
    @Kiza

    What a fucking clown…if any of the physics I presented is ‘wrong’ as you claim it is, then how about pointing out exactly what is ‘wrong’…and what the ‘right’ answer is…?

    Of course you don’t bother to do that do you…being a useless fucking pud-puller who can just go and jack off like a fucking tree monkey in front of an audience…

    ‘…some of it is plain wrong, such as that higher radar frequency automatically translates into higher resolution and then even distance-wise (I had a good laugh at that one)…

    So then you will have a good pud-puller laugh at what the Federation of American Scientists says about the subject…

    ‘The beam-width of an antenna is a measure of the angular extent of the most powerful portion of the radiated energy. For our purposes the main portion, called the main lobe, will be all angles from the perpendicular where the power is not less than ½ of the peak power, or, in decibels, -3 dB.

    The beam-width is the range of angles in the main lobe, so defined. Usually this is resolved into a plane of interest, such as the horizontal or vertical plane. The antenna will have a separate horizontal and vertical beam-width. For a radar antenna, the beam-width can be predicted from the dimension of the antenna in the plane of interest by…

    q = l/L

    where:

    q is the beam-width in radians,

    l is the wavelength of the radar, and

    L is the dimension of the antenna, in the direction of interest (i.e. width or height).

    In my comment here, I said this…

    BEAMWIDTH ANGLE = WAVELENGTH / ANTENNA SIZE

    Since wavelength equals the speed of light divided by the frequency, the wavelength of ATC radar at 1.4 GHz frequency is then 300,000,000, / 1,400,000,000 = 0.21 meters…

    For an antenna size of 14 meters, that gives a beamwidth of 0.21 / 14 = 0.015 radians [which is a measure of angle...and is equal to 0.86 degrees]…

    An S200 radar at 6 GHZ with the same antenna size [it may be bigger] will give a wavelength of 0.05 meters [5 cm]…with the same size antenna we get a beamwidth of 0.05/14 = 0.0036 radians, which is 0.2 degrees…

    It means at 100 km the bearing resolution will be just 357 meters and with the same kind of electronic and physical antenna enhancements as the ATC will give one tenth of that which is just ~36 meters…or 100 ft…

    And then the idiot fucking whackadoodle who calls himself ‘kiza’…[what the fuck is a kiza...?] says this…

    ‘Another silly is that you state or imply that S200 missile was or could have been guided by S400 as if this was relevant and so on.’

    Dr. Karlo Kopp is considered by many to be the foremost Western authority on Russian air defense systems…I had already linked to his page detailing the upgrade of the S200 to the S400 radar..but a completely retarded fucking idiot like yourself somehow thinks he knows more than one of the foremost experts in the field…

    Here is what Kopp writes about the S200 upgrades…

    ‘Upgrades are on offer, include a facility to hybridize the SA-5 with the SA-20 Gargoyle.’

    SA20 is the Nato reporting name for the latest S300 PMU…

    The S200 rockets can also b e slaved to the S400 radar [SA21]…

    Interfaces and software are available for the S-300PMU2 Favorit / SA-20 Gargoyle and S-400 Triumf / SA-21 to control the S-200 Angara/Vega/Dubna / SA-5 Gammon and its 5N62 Square Pair engagement radar.

    In this arrangement, an SA-20/21 system with its high power aperture and highly jam resistant acquisition and engagement radars prosecutes an engagement, but rather than launching its organic 48N6 series missile rounds, it uses the SA-5 Gammon round instead.

    Kopp considers the capability of such a hybrid system formidable…

    ‘The challenge which a hybrid SA-5/SA-20/SA-21 system presents is considerable.

    The SA-20/21 battery is highly mobile, and with modern digital frequency hopping radars, will be difficult to jam. Soft kill and hard kill become problematic.

    In terms of defeating the SA-5 component of the hybrid, the only option is to jam the missile CW homing seeker, the effectiveness of which will depend entirely on the vintage of the 5G24N series seeker and the capabilities of the jamming equipment.

    If the customer opts for an upgrade to the seeker electronics, the seeker may be digital and very difficult to jam.

    Kopp also notes that Iran which has both the S200 and S300 is known to possess this upgrade…my reasonable speculation is that surely Syria would have received this upgrade after that Shayrat cruise missile strike back in April of 2017, when Russia announced it would integrate the Syrian SAMs into the Russian air defense network in Syria…

    You have just proved yourself a complete fucking idiot…let me tell you something…it takes no effort whatsoever to come out here and jerk off…none at all…

    Bringing out some solid information that helps people get a sense of how some of these technologies work is something that does take time and effort…and many decent folks here have come out and said they appreciate what I do…

    So you can take your whole smelly ball of ‘kiza’ and stick it up your ass…you’re just another useless noisemaker on this forum…with absolutely ZERO of substance to contribute to anybody…a pathetic fucking loser…

  400. Mike P says:
    @L.K

    Giraldi won’t let me answer on that other thread, so hopefully the mods let me reply to you here.

    What I’m saying probably sounds barmy, but I have done my homework. However, instead of cluttering up this thread with it, maybe we can discuss another time when the topic comes up. Cheers, M.

  401. @Avery

    Indeed! Even their Massada was a disaster ending in suicide. Compare that to Musa Dagh, a true triumph of deliverance by the Christian God. Of course Hollywood would NEVER let that message out even back in the 40′s.

  402. Erebus says:
    @FB

    Somebody called “stonebird” on moonofalabama says an Israeli jet fired a missile from directly above the French frigate.

    That’s an extraordinary claim.
    Have you seen any indication that something like that may have (a) actually happened, and (b) that said missile may be the one that downed the IL20?

    http://www.moonofalabama.org/2018/10/saudi-embassy-shoots-own-goal-says-al-qaeda-rejects-iran-because-arabs-support-it.html#c6a00d8341c640e53ef022ad39673b6200d

    • Replies: @FB
  403. FB says:
    @Erebus

    I have not heard that information before and it is impossible to verify…

    Here is what I do know…whatever happened that night of Sept 17, the downing of the ‘Il20′ has nothing to do with the official explanation…

    Even non-technical observers have cottoned to the inconsistencies in the story…here is Ollie Richardson, in a guest article on the Saker blog…

    ‘By the way, I will say that the story with the IL-20 is extremely bizarre. The only plausible explanation, in my opinion, is that what we are told is just a narrative for public consumption.’

    I have tried to show here that…

    1…the official narrative and especially the released ‘radar’ images make it physically impossible for an S200 missile to have hit that airplane under the given timeline…

    2…the idea of an aircraft radar ‘hiding’ behind a larger airplane is ludicrous…that’s not how radar works…even with ATC radar this requires closing to distances of less than 500 ft [and that's at a range of 100 km]…on these SAM radars, even the S200 radar would be an order of magnitude [at least] more precise [they have to be by definition]…the distances involved go down to perhaps a few feet…clearly that is preposterous…

    I also mentioned that it is likely that the S200 missiles have been ‘slaved’ to the Russian S400 radars for quite some time [although we don't know this for a fact]…that makes the S200 story even more improbable…since it is the radar that guides the missile shot…

    There is also the fact that even on the standalone S200 there is a ‘kill switch’ to destroy the missile in flight…there would have been plenty of time to do that if it became clear that a high value friendly target was being shot at…

    The public narrative serves a political purpose as I have noted…my own suspicion is that the ‘Il20′ was in fact the new Il22, which is not just a recon platform, but carries an electronic warfare suite for jamming and spoofing enemy radars and comms…

    I think we had a situation on that night where the US and its Nato and Israeli allies were primed for a big time assault on Syria…probably a massive cruise missile strike and possibly even attempted strikes at Russian air defense positions…

    The stakes were that high politically surrounding the Idlib issue…that has since become crystal clear…the loss of Idlib would mean a final defeat, and a very humiliating one, for the empire…

    So with all the guns in place and ready to roar, it may well be that the Putin Erdogan deal that averted that in the last minute, still had some itchy trigger fingers among the players there…technically the odds that friendly fire took down this aircraft are slim to none…so it was hostile fire…a very cheap shot…[I like the Brits for that reason among others]

    The Israelis appeared to be in on the ambush, at least in some way…since they took the big no-no of sailing bombs right over the Russians heads in Latakia…something they had never done before…whether they knew or did not know that somebody would take a shot at that Ilyushin is beside the point…they could have been patsies too as far as that goes…

    I notice the Saker has put up an article about what the delivery of those S300s into the hands of the Syrians may mean and I will have some thoughts on that…

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