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A number of events have happened recently which point to the possibility that something might be brewing in the Syrian conflict.

First and foremost, there was Erdogan’s apology to Russia which was really much more than just an apology. The Turks have really extended a hand to Russia and their offer officially includes not only a return of Russian tourists or the sale of Turkish veggies in Russia, but a strong collaboration between the two countries against terrorism and even join military operations. The Turks have even indicated that they would be willing to offer Russia the use of the Incirlik airbase for Russian aircraft involved in the air operations against Daesh & Co. Then the Turks denied it, which is fair enough and which is how they, apparently, do business. Either way, the Russians politely declined (more about that later)

Second, just two weeks after another “leak” which claimed that 51 US diplomats wanted Obama to authorize airstrikes against government forces in Syria, the WaPo “leaked” the news that the USA was offering the Russians a new “military partnership” in Syria only to vehemently denounce this plan a couple of days later. “Moon of Alabama” immediately and correctly denounced this so-called offer as “nonsense”.

Third, while the Syrian move to advance towards Raqqa has clearly run into some major difficulties, there are sign indicating that the city of Aleppo might soon be fully encircled by the government forces.

Fourth, the Russian military has confirmed that heavy aircraft-carrying missile cruiser Admiral Kuznetsov might be soon deployed to the Mediterranean

Fifth, Defense Minister Shoigu has announced that he was promoting the current commander of the Russian task force in Syria, Colonel-General Alexander Dvornikov, to the post of the commander of the Southern Military District.

So what does all that mean?

Concerning the first point, it is remarkable that while Erdogan is personally extremely disliked in Russia, all the Russian military and foreign policy experts agree that Russia should, and will, resume cooperation with Turkey. There is an acute awareness in Russia that, like it or not, Turkey is a key player in the region and that Russia must therefore engage with any Turkish leader. Furthermore, the Russians feel that they are in a very advantageous position of strength and that now is the time to press Turkey for some real changes. Topping the Russian agenda is the objective to get Turkey to really close the Turkish-Syrian border and to stop financing Daesh by shutting down the illegal trade in oil. Second, several Turkey specialists have expressed the opinion that the bombing in Istanbul was really a Daesh warning to Erdogan and that this indicates that Erdogan took a real risk by turning to Russia and that Russia must now give him something tangible to support him in his terrible position. Again, this is not going to be a love-fest between the Kremlin and Ankara, but a case of pure Realpolitik where the Russian feel that they must set aside their feeling of distrust, and even disgust, and very carefully play the “Erdogan” card. At the very least, the Russians will demand an end to Turkish support for terrorism in the Caucasus and Central Asia and some tangible signs of real, meaningful Turkish collaboration against Daesh. In exchange, the Russians have indicated that they are willing to resume collaboration with Turkey on energy (gas, oil, nuclear plants) and economic (building, transportation) issues.

Russia has no need and no interest in the Incirlik air base. Not only is it basically run by the USA, but Russian aircraft have the reach to bomb anywhere in Syria if needed.

What is currently happening in the USA can only be described as utter chaos. When when a large number of diplomats admit that their own craft, diplomacy, is useless and when the only thing they can recommend is the fully illegal and, I would add, irresponsible use of force against a sovereign country (Syria) which is allied with, and hosting the forces of, a nuclear superpower (Russia), you know that you are dealing with a clueless and incompetent gang of amateurs. This also is the sign that the United States have lost the control (or even the illusion of control) and that the inevitable infighting has begun. That is very bad news because it makes the USA even more unpredictable and prone to “quickfix solutions” (which in the case of the USA is always more military violence and escalation). While I agree with Moon of Alabama that the US offer is a no-starter, I also see it as a possible diversionary maneuver of those in the USA who want to prevent the Neocon crazies from triggering a direct confrontation with Russia. If that is the case, some vague promise of collaboration from Russia would be good enough to at least temporarily shut up the crazies and hope that Trump gets elected.

All we know so far is that Obama and Putin have spoken on the phone and that, according to a Russian statement,

During the discussion of the situation in Syria, Vladimir Putin urged Barack Obama to facilitate as quickly as possible the separation of moderate Syrian opposition forces from the terrorist group Jabhat al-Nusra and other extremists that are not covered by the ceasefire regime. Both sides reaffirmed their readiness to step up coordination of American and Russian military actions in Syria, and emphasised the importance of resuming inter-Syrian negotiations under the aegis of the UN to achieve a a political settlement.

Whether any real “coordination” ever truly materializes remains to be seen.

ORDER IT NOW

In the meantime, the Syrians clearly need more help and while they are apparently making progress around Aleppo elsewhere they are running into problems. Rumor has it that Iranian forces have also taken a pounding recently. Some Russian experts are saying that the reason for this is that Hezbollah has made the determination that liberating Aleppo is the single most important goal and that crack Hezbollah fighters have been withdrawn from other sectors and concentrated around Aleppo. Whatever may be the case, in the Raqqa province Daesh still seems to be in control. This might change if the US somehow manages to convince the Kurds to make a push for Raqqa, especially if the Turks cut off the northern supplies routes to Daesh and the Russians help the Syrians. This could happen if only because anything could happen, I suppose, but I will believe it when I see it. It will be awfully hard to get the Kurds, who are basically fighting a civil war in Turkey, to agree to divert resources to the south and east to fight Daesh. The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so. Of course, the real solution would be to make a deal with Russia and Assad and then jointly crush Daesh, but that would extremely humiliating for the United States. There are probably constituencies lobbying for all these options right now and I won’t even try to guess who will prevail.

While it is true that the Russian have confirmed that the Admiral Kuznetsov will be sent to the Mediterranean, silly rumors about “countering NATO” are, yet again, being circulated. The truth is that the Kuznetsov, while a formidable ship indeed, is also a Cold War “fossil” which was originally designed to extend the range of Soviet air defenses protecting the submarine bastions of the Soviet Navy. By the way, the correct classification for this kind of ship is not “aircraft carrier” but “heavy aircraft-carrying missile cruiser” (тяжёлый авианесущий крейсер) which means that unlike, say, USN aircraft carriers, the primary armament of the Kuznetsov are her powerful anti-ship missiles designed to sink US carriers. Her complement of aircraft, fixed and rotary-wing, are a secondary capability: to extend the sensor range and to protect. This will probably change in the future, but in its current configuration the Admiral Kuznetsov is definitely a weird ship: her anti-ship missiles are useless against Daesh. Her rotary and fixed wing aircraft have been modernized and are very capable, but they are also extremely limited in numbers: 15 SU-33 and MiG-29K/KUB and more than ten Ка-52К, Ка-27 and Ка-31. So, at most, there will be, maybe, 10 navalized (and modernized) MiG-29K/KUB which would be a real threat to Daesh, plus a few Ka-52K. The SU-33 is a pure air-to-air interceptor, though capable of “dumb” (unguided) bombing while the Ka-27 and Ka-31 are SAR and EW helos respectively. Bottom line – in terms of fighting Daesh, the Admiral Kuznetsov brings very little. What she does bring, however, a world-class air defense capabilities and advanced command, control and communication. In other words, the Kuznetsov is an ideal task force command post. That, and the SU-33/MiG-29K combo, can very substantially increase the Russian capability of having advanced air-to-air aircraft on station for combat air patrols. But, remember, Daesh has no air force, so make your own conclusions here :-)

Here I would tie-in the promotion of Colonel-General Dvornikov, a man who knows the Syrian operational environment extremely well, to the Southern Military District, the district which, should things get ugly in Syria, would be the district supporting all Russian efforts in Syria and upon whom the Russian task force in Syria would be vitally dependent on. What better choice could there be for the Russian task force in Syria than to have its former Commander now in charge of support from the Motherland?

I have no way of knowing what the Russians and the Turks or the Russians and the Americans are discussing behind closed doors, so I won’t even pretend. But what I see is Russia, yet again, taking steps which would be expected of her if the Kremlin had come to the conclusion that the situation in Syria is likely to heat up again. Oh sure, it could be that Dvornikov got promoted to a position of responsibility just because a man like him was needed in the very important Southern Military District and that the Kuznetsov is just being sent to the Syrian cost for some, shall we say, “realistic trials”. But I have the feeling that the Russians are maximizing their options while the Americans are clearly struggling to even define what their policy now really is.

And just to make things more complicated, there are some semi-official differences between the Russians and the Iranians who wanted a much larger Russian intervention and who don’t believe in the peace process initiated by Putin. Finally, it is not at all clear from the Russian statements so far that they are willing to continue their intervention until the last Daesh fighter is killed, which is the position of Assad. So while Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and the Syrian have found a great deal of common interests, Russia is not in the position to act like a mini-USA and just give orders to everybody else. There are real differences in opinion between these loosely allied forces and each one retains a very large freedom of maneuver.

The political logic of a US pre-election period would suggest that US-generated conflicts such as the ones in the Ukraine and the one in Syria should remain limited to minor moves until the new administration gets elected and takes over. This might still happen in Syria, but a lot of signs are beginning to point to a possible acceleration of events on the ground.

The Saker

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Syria 
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  1. […] Major Syria Developments Soon? Here’s something interesting from The Unz Review… A number of events have happened […]

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  2. hbm says:

    The Russians aren’t sending their biggest warship for nothing, one would imagine. As for the “51 Diplomats”, that’s just the same old cadre of lovable State Department Neocons doing whatever they can to get American boots on the ground in Syria because deposing Assad and turning Syria into a Balkanized bloodbath is good for Greatest Ally– not a lot of mystery in that.

    But I am puzzled by the Turkey thing. I have a hard time understanding or believing Erdogan, probably ISIS’ biggest supporter in the war to oust Assad, would do a 180 on the whole thing.

    As for co-operating with the US, every time Putin lets his guard down, Washington stabs him in the back. I would guess that after the plane shoot-down he resolved not to trust anyone involved again. I can’t see the Washington-Tel Aviv Axis of Evil having any reason to change course either, though they might have reason to pretend– at least for the moment– that they do.

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    • Replies: @Carthage1
    While Russia debates and hopes for honesty from US,US would be looking for escalation against Russia from other frontiers . Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia . To get to that point Pakistan has to be weaned from China or China's defacto current status has to be embraced by US . India will escalate pressure on Pakistan . The theater will move to East Adia.
    Russia can survive only if it comes to realize that it is fighting a war not unlike that of Napolean or Hitler. It can lull itself into violent chaotic demise unless it wakes up from absurd belief that US has or will change.
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  3. So while Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and the Syrian have found a great deal of common interests, Russia is not in the position to act like a mini-USA and just give orders to everybody else. There are real differences in opinion between these loosely allied forces and each one retains a very large freedom of maneuver.

    If this is true, then the Syrians are probably f_cked. The Russians and the Iranians need to set aside their differences, put their heads together and come up with a workable and mutually agreed upon strategy. The needs of each party must be taken into account, and their duties must be clearly delineated. Otherwise, it’ll just be too easy for the AngloZionists to sow confusion and play them off against one another.

    And like commenter #2, I fail to see what is to be gained by putting too much faith in these farcical negotiations with the US. As Clausewitz once said, nothing was ever won at the negotiating table that could not be held on the field of battle. Washington, moreover, is simply not a credible negotiating partner, having double-crossed both Russia and Iran over and over. VVP would be very foolish to trust them.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    VVP would be very foolish to trust them.
     
    VVP does not operate in a vacuum and is not omnipotent. He is in the focus of struggle of several major and influential power groups and it takes toll. There is an internal dynamics here of which we may only speculate. As per "Syrians fvcked"--I don't think so. Main objective was already achieved--Assad government is stabilized. Contradictions between Russia and Iran were absolutely expected and were inevitable, they will continue to manifest themselves. Moreover, Russian involvement and dramatic results it achieved by completely changing war's dynamics didn't sit well with many both in SAA and Iran. It is well known and documented fact that many among SAA's top brass and Iran-linked forces literally wanted Russia to fight their war for them. I am not surprised with it at all.
    , @Seraphim
    Do you really think that the Russians are not fully aware that Washington is not a credible negotiating partner and that VVP is really so "very foolish to trust them"?
    That Washington acts on the premise that the Russians can be fooled all the time is too obvious, even for amateur politicians as ourselves. But whereas Washinton's politicians are amateurs, Russia's are professionals.
    , @Rabbitnexus
    I don't agree. The model which says everyone must be on exactly the same page, striving for one goal, one way, under one command, is not traditionally how wars and battles have been fought and won. IT is one way. It is also the US/NATO way and it clearly doesn't end up looking anything like an effective or homogeous front. The main issue is if the goals of the allies are mutually supportive and if they are capable of working in chorus to achieve the mutually agreed upon goals. Despite wanting Russian help the Shia players as such will always demand more autonomy than Sunnis for one thing and even within their own ranks what we have is not a top down authoritarian regime but a cooperative of autonomous ones. The smart money will always be on my Shia brothers in battle. Russia has every right to pick and choose where and what they do also and I am confident they will provide what Allah decrees is necessary. No more or less hopefully because whilst it is Russia's fight it remains more directly the fight of those whose lives are directly in danger and Russia has yet chosen to put some of their lives in danger on their behalf. I was very sad to see two more Russian servicemen were killed in action a couple of days ago. Two Russian helicopter pilots, may Allah grant them peace and Jannah.
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  4. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Seamus Padraig

    So while Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and the Syrian have found a great deal of common interests, Russia is not in the position to act like a mini-USA and just give orders to everybody else. There are real differences in opinion between these loosely allied forces and each one retains a very large freedom of maneuver.
     
    If this is true, then the Syrians are probably f_cked. The Russians and the Iranians need to set aside their differences, put their heads together and come up with a workable and mutually agreed upon strategy. The needs of each party must be taken into account, and their duties must be clearly delineated. Otherwise, it'll just be too easy for the AngloZionists to sow confusion and play them off against one another.

    And like commenter #2, I fail to see what is to be gained by putting too much faith in these farcical negotiations with the US. As Clausewitz once said, nothing was ever won at the negotiating table that could not be held on the field of battle. Washington, moreover, is simply not a credible negotiating partner, having double-crossed both Russia and Iran over and over. VVP would be very foolish to trust them.

    VVP would be very foolish to trust them.

    VVP does not operate in a vacuum and is not omnipotent. He is in the focus of struggle of several major and influential power groups and it takes toll. There is an internal dynamics here of which we may only speculate. As per “Syrians fvcked”–I don’t think so. Main objective was already achieved–Assad government is stabilized. Contradictions between Russia and Iran were absolutely expected and were inevitable, they will continue to manifest themselves. Moreover, Russian involvement and dramatic results it achieved by completely changing war’s dynamics didn’t sit well with many both in SAA and Iran. It is well known and documented fact that many among SAA’s top brass and Iran-linked forces literally wanted Russia to fight their war for them. I am not surprised with it at all.

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    • Replies: @L.K
    smoothie: "It is well known and documented fact that many among SAA’s top brass and Iran-linked forces literally wanted Russia to fight their war for them."

    Pure BS. But then again, you are a russian propagandist.

    The fighting on the ground has been done almost exclusively by SAA/NDF, Syrian militias, IRGC backed/supported/led militias and Hezbollah. More than 200 Iranians, mostly officers, have been kia in Syria.

    What Syria and Iran did NOT want was for the Russians to pull the plug on their offensive, right in the middle of very successful operations in Aleppo province.
    Momentum was there, the jihadists were in disarray, suffering defeat after defeat, morale was lower than ever, cauldrons were forming, perhaps collapse for the militants in Aleppo was at hand.

    Instead, Russia decided to "talk to our american partners", and worked with the fu*king zamerican fiends to come up with an idiotic "cessation of hostilities" and halt the offensive.
    It was OBVIOUS that ZUSA and the other local fiends were gonna use the 'cease fire' to just recruit new jihadists, train them, re-arm, redeploy, etc.
    That is exactly what happened; The islamic militants retook the initiative, reversed some hard earned government gains in South Aleppo, massacred civilians in Aleppo city by shelling residential areas indiscriminately, all while the russians played their silly games with the americans who, in turn, shielded al-ciada(nusra) & co(which includes several fake syrian army units).
    Even the US Colonel, Pat Lang, was frustrated by this course of action.
    Of course the blood spilled was almost all non-russian, so no problem.

    It seems that at last the russians have become tired of this nonsense and are again supporting government forces with CAS in the critical theater of Aleppo.
    We'll see.
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  5. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Saker: Perhaps you have not heard, the Admiral Kuznetsov is coming off a major refit and this will be the first deployment afterward its completion. (c.f. http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/upgrading-the-admiral-russias-kuznetsov-06305/). No doubt the Russian navy would like to give it a ‘hot’ sea trial and gain some valuable operational experience supporting the fighting in Syria. It’s still not exactly clear what upgrades have been done, but the anti-ship missiles were definitely removed in favor of more aircraft.

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  6. Putting a big target like this “carrier” this in harms way may be a mistake. A kamikaze mission could cause an incident. Israel has subs in the region, underwater drones etc.

    Don’t risk anything you can’t afford to lose, politically or militarily.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Israel has subs in the region, underwater drones etc.
     
    Yes, Russia has too but that is beyond the point--what Israel has anything to do with Kuznetsov's possible deployment? Israel wants to fight a naval engagement against Russia? Good luck with that.
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  7. […] This article was written for the Unz Review: […]

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  8. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Si1ver1ock
    Putting a big target like this "carrier" this in harms way may be a mistake. A kamikaze mission could cause an incident. Israel has subs in the region, underwater drones etc.

    Don't risk anything you can't afford to lose, politically or militarily.

    Israel has subs in the region, underwater drones etc.

    Yes, Russia has too but that is beyond the point–what Israel has anything to do with Kuznetsov’s possible deployment? Israel wants to fight a naval engagement against Russia? Good luck with that.

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    • Agree: Pseudonymic Handle
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  9. Seraphim says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    So while Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and the Syrian have found a great deal of common interests, Russia is not in the position to act like a mini-USA and just give orders to everybody else. There are real differences in opinion between these loosely allied forces and each one retains a very large freedom of maneuver.
     
    If this is true, then the Syrians are probably f_cked. The Russians and the Iranians need to set aside their differences, put their heads together and come up with a workable and mutually agreed upon strategy. The needs of each party must be taken into account, and their duties must be clearly delineated. Otherwise, it'll just be too easy for the AngloZionists to sow confusion and play them off against one another.

    And like commenter #2, I fail to see what is to be gained by putting too much faith in these farcical negotiations with the US. As Clausewitz once said, nothing was ever won at the negotiating table that could not be held on the field of battle. Washington, moreover, is simply not a credible negotiating partner, having double-crossed both Russia and Iran over and over. VVP would be very foolish to trust them.

    Do you really think that the Russians are not fully aware that Washington is not a credible negotiating partner and that VVP is really so “very foolish to trust them”?
    That Washington acts on the premise that the Russians can be fooled all the time is too obvious, even for amateur politicians as ourselves. But whereas Washinton’s politicians are amateurs, Russia’s are professionals.

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  10. When I saw the US bombing from the Persian Gulf rather than from Carrier Air in the Med, I relaxed. We aren’t serious about unseating Assad. Perhaps Libya and Egypt and Saddam convinced them that what comes after is always worse. Fact is, we should hold our noses, send a carrier and full complement and support Russia as we have with Iran. While we’re at it, take care of ISIS. Any action on Syria demands a heavy tactical and logistical presence in the Med, period.

    One wonder why we abandoned the Med.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    "While we’re at it, take care of ISIS"
     
    Still in denial, JC? The US is taking care of ISIS, i.e. supplying them with weapons, shielding them from serious attack (a little less so now, but still as much as possible).

    This week, the "good rebels" were left high and dry, abandoned by US jets that 'overflew' to another target. They left all their US supplied weapons to ISIS. Were these the weapons ISIS then used to shoot down the Russian helicopter?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ivZKHE-STk
    U.S. Policy in Syria: An Interview with VA Senator Richard Black
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  11. Admiral Kuznetsov is on the way. Major developments in the works? Wow. It is probably transporting Russian National Orchestra to perform another concert this time in the suburbs of Aleppo. I propose to surround Aleppo with orchestras and play Gotterdammerung. The resulting noise might drive away the terrorists. One must admire Saker’s persistence and faith in Russia’s capabilities. I am disappointed that he discontinued his series titled “Week xx of the Russian Military Intervention”. What week is it now? Close to half a year of utterly inefficient show. Assad is still fighting terrorists in the suburb of Damascus. He does not have the manpower to take on Aleppo. Even if he does take the city the terrorists will simply slip away and fight somewhere else. To defeat them one needs massive military intervention on the ground so that they have nowhere to go. Anything else is just prolonging the agony of the Syrian people. Russia unfortunately is not USSR and puny Putin is no Stalin or even Brezhnev. Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.

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    • Replies: @El Dato
    You could enlist in Russian ground forces and demand to be dropped behing ISIS lines for some Rambo-level aggro that you so clearly crave.

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal.
     
    Well MSMed, friend.

    I don't think that Putin aspires to be a clown. It's just that Russians would not stand for anti-ISIS ground operations. They are not there to clean up Washington's messes.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.
     
    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you--guess what, we are going to be talking as equals. If you have some major character flaws you will become hysterical, delusional, bad-mouthed but that in no way will change the fact that we will be equal and I will have as much chance to blow your brains out as you will have to do the same to me. Russia is the only nation in the world which can wipe out US from the face of the Earth, moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity. Moreover, Russia is the only other nation in the world which can conventionally, that is without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, strike US proper and create a whole number of 911 "equivalents" in many US urban centers and military installations. The reason for that is because Russia's real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons. Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and "elites" because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this "unequal" to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise. This explanation is on fingers, so to speak--the level reserved for people brainwashed with propaganda and having very limited knowledge of issues which are crucial for the new emerging power balance. I will omit here the issue of war records comparison since, indeed, Russia here is not "equal", she is in the league of her own and that too adds to Western distress. Did I explain it well or should I go deeper into the issue of "equality"?;-)
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  12. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

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  13. Rehmat says:

    Saker avoids to mention that all those MOVES could be to isolate Syria from Hizbullah and Iran.

    1. Erdogan did not apologized to Putin until John Kerry put both Erdogan and Netanyahu in the same bed. Israel being given birth and nourished by Soviet Union and America has always considered an alliance between Syria and Iran as an “existential threat”.

    2. Since US-Israel proxy is being routed out of both Syria and Iraq, Israel feels Iranian forces could be encircling its illegal occupation from three sides; Syria, Iraq and Lebanon.

    3. According to Israeli “mistranslation” agency MEMRI quoted Iran’s deputy commander of armed forces last month that “Iran’s 100,000 missiles are aimed at Israel”.

    4. Turkish hatred of Russian goes back to WWI when Russian used Armenian land to destroy Ottoman rule in order to open the way for the creation of its “Socialist colony” in Palestine.

    Last month, Benjamin Netanyahu met his American Jewish brother John Kerry in Rome and thanked him for his efforts in bringing about the reconciliation agreement between the Zionist entity and Turkey.

    “I know your team has been working long and hard at this,” he told Kerry.

    Kerry said the Obama administration welcomed the reconciliation agreement between the former allies for over 60 years, saying it was “a step we wanted to see happen.”

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/06/29/erdogan-kisses-netanyahu-and-makeup/

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  14. The biggest development is that the syrian government forces have conquered positions overlooking Castello road, the last rebel controlled road out of Aleppo. This morning Jabhat al-Nusra admitted that their counteroffensive to clear the Mallah farms failed with various islamist groups losing 75 men, including 7 commanders. If things go well it is possible that this summer Syria’s biggest city will return completely to regime control.
    Another big success was in Eastern Ghouta, a rebel enclave near Damascus, where Assad’s forces took advantage of rebel infighting and gained important positions.
    Removing the threats on Aleppo and Damascus will greatly strengthen the regime, so I expect Assad’s internal and external enemies to do their best to prevent these victories.
    Saker’s opinion that things are about to change is a good one.

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  15. […] Written by TheSaker; Originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

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  16. Carthage1 says:
    @hbm
    The Russians aren't sending their biggest warship for nothing, one would imagine. As for the "51 Diplomats", that's just the same old cadre of lovable State Department Neocons doing whatever they can to get American boots on the ground in Syria because deposing Assad and turning Syria into a Balkanized bloodbath is good for Greatest Ally-- not a lot of mystery in that.

    But I am puzzled by the Turkey thing. I have a hard time understanding or believing Erdogan, probably ISIS' biggest supporter in the war to oust Assad, would do a 180 on the whole thing.

    As for co-operating with the US, every time Putin lets his guard down, Washington stabs him in the back. I would guess that after the plane shoot-down he resolved not to trust anyone involved again. I can't see the Washington-Tel Aviv Axis of Evil having any reason to change course either, though they might have reason to pretend-- at least for the moment-- that they do.

    While Russia debates and hopes for honesty from US,US would be looking for escalation against Russia from other frontiers . Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia . To get to that point Pakistan has to be weaned from China or China’s defacto current status has to be embraced by US . India will escalate pressure on Pakistan . The theater will move to East Adia.
    Russia can survive only if it comes to realize that it is fighting a war not unlike that of Napolean or Hitler. It can lull itself into violent chaotic demise unless it wakes up from absurd belief that US has or will change.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    [Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia .]

    Wow. Talk about a triple bank shot.
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  17. El Dato says:
    @Regnum Nostrum
    Admiral Kuznetsov is on the way. Major developments in the works? Wow. It is probably transporting Russian National Orchestra to perform another concert this time in the suburbs of Aleppo. I propose to surround Aleppo with orchestras and play Gotterdammerung. The resulting noise might drive away the terrorists. One must admire Saker's persistence and faith in Russia's capabilities. I am disappointed that he discontinued his series titled "Week xx of the Russian Military Intervention". What week is it now? Close to half a year of utterly inefficient show. Assad is still fighting terrorists in the suburb of Damascus. He does not have the manpower to take on Aleppo. Even if he does take the city the terrorists will simply slip away and fight somewhere else. To defeat them one needs massive military intervention on the ground so that they have nowhere to go. Anything else is just prolonging the agony of the Syrian people. Russia unfortunately is not USSR and puny Putin is no Stalin or even Brezhnev. Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.

    You could enlist in Russian ground forces and demand to be dropped behing ISIS lines for some Rambo-level aggro that you so clearly crave.

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal.

    Well MSMed, friend.

    I don’t think that Putin aspires to be a clown. It’s just that Russians would not stand for anti-ISIS ground operations. They are not there to clean up Washington’s messes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
    I cannot enlist for two reasons. I was born when Stalin was still alive which means that I am too old for military service and I am not a Russian. I would like to know how you concluded that I crave Rambo-level aggro. It would help me to better understand mental processes or lack of them in people like you. If Russians are not interested in anti ISIS operations why are they in Syria. Would you mind to elaborate.
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  18. Kiza says:

    Well, Putin did say that Russia will send the bombers back to Syria if US terrorist regrouping and rearming sold as “peace initiative” fails and that is what he is doing now. I would venture an opinion that (for various reasons) neither US nor Russia travel in Syria in a straight line.

    The basic US strategy is to delay resolution of Syria till the new Ziocon Supreme administration gets sworn in. Only Trump could spoil those plans, Putin certainly cannot.

    Read More
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  19. @El Dato
    You could enlist in Russian ground forces and demand to be dropped behing ISIS lines for some Rambo-level aggro that you so clearly crave.

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal.
     
    Well MSMed, friend.

    I don't think that Putin aspires to be a clown. It's just that Russians would not stand for anti-ISIS ground operations. They are not there to clean up Washington's messes.

    I cannot enlist for two reasons. I was born when Stalin was still alive which means that I am too old for military service and I am not a Russian. I would like to know how you concluded that I crave Rambo-level aggro. It would help me to better understand mental processes or lack of them in people like you. If Russians are not interested in anti ISIS operations why are they in Syria. Would you mind to elaborate.

    Read More
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  20. Concerning the first point, it is remarkable that while Erdogan is personally extremely disliked in Russia, all the Russian military and foreign policy experts agree that Russia should, and will, resume cooperation with Turkey. There is an acute awareness in Russia that, like it or not, Turkey is a key player in the region and that Russia must therefore engage with any Turkish leader.

    Wasn’t the Saker arguing that Russia had “Saakashvilized” Erdogan not that long ago? ;)

    Anyhow, I’m pretty skeptical about the prospects for taking Aleppo, though I’d love to be proven wrong. But the SAA advance into Raqqa was halted and thrown back essentially by a few dozen VBIEDs charging in over open desert terrain. This suggests that the longstanding, critical problems in training and morale in the SAA have yet to be solved, even if their equipment has improved. Aleppo is a huge metropolis that has had almost half a decade to build up its defenses. Hezbollah and Tiger Forces are good, but numerically small, and Al Nusra has displayed impressive battlefield finesse as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    This suggests that the longstanding, critical problems in training and morale in the SAA have yet to be solved, even if their equipment has improved.
     
    This is the issue which can not be resolved in Arab world. Culture, rooted in Sunni Islam, does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there. Especially so against the background of increasingly sophisticated C4ISR complex required for the modern battlefield.
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  21. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Regnum Nostrum
    Admiral Kuznetsov is on the way. Major developments in the works? Wow. It is probably transporting Russian National Orchestra to perform another concert this time in the suburbs of Aleppo. I propose to surround Aleppo with orchestras and play Gotterdammerung. The resulting noise might drive away the terrorists. One must admire Saker's persistence and faith in Russia's capabilities. I am disappointed that he discontinued his series titled "Week xx of the Russian Military Intervention". What week is it now? Close to half a year of utterly inefficient show. Assad is still fighting terrorists in the suburb of Damascus. He does not have the manpower to take on Aleppo. Even if he does take the city the terrorists will simply slip away and fight somewhere else. To defeat them one needs massive military intervention on the ground so that they have nowhere to go. Anything else is just prolonging the agony of the Syrian people. Russia unfortunately is not USSR and puny Putin is no Stalin or even Brezhnev. Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals. If you have some major character flaws you will become hysterical, delusional, bad-mouthed but that in no way will change the fact that we will be equal and I will have as much chance to blow your brains out as you will have to do the same to me. Russia is the only nation in the world which can wipe out US from the face of the Earth, moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity. Moreover, Russia is the only other nation in the world which can conventionally, that is without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, strike US proper and create a whole number of 911 “equivalents” in many US urban centers and military installations. The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons. Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise. This explanation is on fingers, so to speak–the level reserved for people brainwashed with propaganda and having very limited knowledge of issues which are crucial for the new emerging power balance. I will omit here the issue of war records comparison since, indeed, Russia here is not “equal”, she is in the league of her own and that too adds to Western distress. Did I explain it well or should I go deeper into the issue of “equality”?;-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

     

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.
     
    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.
     
    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.
     
    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L'Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.
    , @Rehmat
    You may not like it but you're talking like Ukraine’s former Jewish prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko who wanted to kill Putin.

    “I’m ready to grab a machinegun and shoot that mother F****ker (Putin) in the head,” she said.

    “One has to take up arms and go wipe out these damn ‘katsaps’ (Russians) together with their leader,” the voice said in Russian, without mentioning Putin by name. Watch the video below.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/03/27/ukraine-former-jewish-pm-calls-for-russian-holocaust/
    , @L.K
    smoothie: "moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity."

    Nonsense. I can think of at least another country, China. It actually fought ZUSA to a draw back in the 50s, when it was a very backward third world country.
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  22. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Concerning the first point, it is remarkable that while Erdogan is personally extremely disliked in Russia, all the Russian military and foreign policy experts agree that Russia should, and will, resume cooperation with Turkey. There is an acute awareness in Russia that, like it or not, Turkey is a key player in the region and that Russia must therefore engage with any Turkish leader.
     
    Wasn't the Saker arguing that Russia had "Saakashvilized" Erdogan not that long ago? ;)

    Anyhow, I'm pretty skeptical about the prospects for taking Aleppo, though I'd love to be proven wrong. But the SAA advance into Raqqa was halted and thrown back essentially by a few dozen VBIEDs charging in over open desert terrain. This suggests that the longstanding, critical problems in training and morale in the SAA have yet to be solved, even if their equipment has improved. Aleppo is a huge metropolis that has had almost half a decade to build up its defenses. Hezbollah and Tiger Forces are good, but numerically small, and Al Nusra has displayed impressive battlefield finesse as well.

    This suggests that the longstanding, critical problems in training and morale in the SAA have yet to be solved, even if their equipment has improved.

    This is the issue which can not be resolved in Arab world. Culture, rooted in Sunni Islam, does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there. Especially so against the background of increasingly sophisticated C4ISR complex required for the modern battlefield.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    I'm sorry, what??!!

    Sunni Islam does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there
     
    What does that even mean? What does Sunni Islam have to do with lack of 'combined arms warfare'? How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia's not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

    I personally think Egypt would be doing much better if it wasn't knee-capped by the three-way political ploys between it, the US and Israel.

    Peace.
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  23. Durruti says:

    Saker’s Own Words.

    “The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so.”

    Say What!!!

    And followed by:

    ” Of course, the real solution would be to make a deal with Russia and Assad and then jointly crush Daesh, but that would extremely humiliating for the United States. There are probably constituencies lobbying for all these options right now and I won’t even try to guess who will prevail.”

    Yipes!!!

    *We are reading an advocacy for American Military Invasion on a vast scale.

    Next, will the Saker will urge Zionist “boots on the ground” as a curative for the Syrian nation?

    It should not be news for anyone on the UNZ forum, that Zionist and Zionist American Imperialists already have “boots on the ground” in Syria, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Ukraine.

    This article and its advocacies appear to be direct Propaganda from Moscow, Washington DC, and the Rothschilds coalition of Oligarchs centered in Tel Aviv.

    The Russian Government is no more free from the control of their Zionist American Fifth Column Traitors than the Government of the United States.

    What don’t We Know!

    1. More than 60 million Russians are separated from their Nation, from the Baltic Principalities, to Byelorussia, Kazakstan, to Georgia, and to the Ukraine.

    2. The 5th Column Traitors continue to rule in Russia.

    3. The assassins of the Kennedys and of the American Republic remain in power in the USA.

    4. The Zionist ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians will condemn the Jewish Church for eternity.

    5. Putin’s loving Press Conference with fascist mass murderer Rothschild puppet Netenyahoo, in which the Palestinian people were not once mentioned (treated as being -already- non existent), is the evidence (the fingerprints-DNA), that identify some of the criminals.

    The fine American Statesman, former Congressman Ron Paul, has urged that All American Troops be brought home. There is proper VISION.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiy1bPwoenNAhWC9h4KHRJdAo4QFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronpaul.com%2F2011-08-18%2Fron-paul-bring-the-troops-home-now%2F&usg=AFQjCNHu9Y4I6-rr5h_d1vD40mD8GWPifQ&sig2=gMANK1og9EbTkqVvBhT5rQ

    For the Restoration of the American Democratic Republic!

    Peter J. Antonsen

    Read More
    • Replies: @Durruti
    In Plain Sight

    I did not expect anyone to comment on the Keynote Writer, Saker, expressing support for American Troops to openly (and unconstitutionally), invade Syria.

    " The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so." Saker - alias -..........................

    Heaven forbid: that any participant should stick to the subject of appraising the Keynote (Subject) Article. And its author?

    The imperialist advocacy is in Plain Sight. No one notices? No one thinks it is important? No one cares? Agree? Disagree?
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  24. 5371 says:
    @Carthage1
    While Russia debates and hopes for honesty from US,US would be looking for escalation against Russia from other frontiers . Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia . To get to that point Pakistan has to be weaned from China or China's defacto current status has to be embraced by US . India will escalate pressure on Pakistan . The theater will move to East Adia.
    Russia can survive only if it comes to realize that it is fighting a war not unlike that of Napolean or Hitler. It can lull itself into violent chaotic demise unless it wakes up from absurd belief that US has or will change.

    [Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia .]

    Wow. Talk about a triple bank shot.

    Read More
    • Replies: @carthage1
    But that is the only way left for US to hamstring. Russia . US couldn't do it in Ukraine US couldn't do it in Syria . US ,despite trapping Turkey against Russia, had to throw the towel in Mediterranean .
    There is no volunteer left to do the biddings of America. Rumania and Bulgaria are no go . Germany's FM have exposed the banality of American evil intention.
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  25. @Andrei Martyanov

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.
     
    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you--guess what, we are going to be talking as equals. If you have some major character flaws you will become hysterical, delusional, bad-mouthed but that in no way will change the fact that we will be equal and I will have as much chance to blow your brains out as you will have to do the same to me. Russia is the only nation in the world which can wipe out US from the face of the Earth, moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity. Moreover, Russia is the only other nation in the world which can conventionally, that is without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, strike US proper and create a whole number of 911 "equivalents" in many US urban centers and military installations. The reason for that is because Russia's real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons. Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and "elites" because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this "unequal" to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise. This explanation is on fingers, so to speak--the level reserved for people brainwashed with propaganda and having very limited knowledge of issues which are crucial for the new emerging power balance. I will omit here the issue of war records comparison since, indeed, Russia here is not "equal", she is in the league of her own and that too adds to Western distress. Did I explain it well or should I go deeper into the issue of "equality"?;-)

    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.

    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.

    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.

    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L’Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    Learn the meaning of the word "retaliation". It is not synonymous with "escalation".

    [You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West ]

    I doubt he is, since it isn't a fact.
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.
     
    I never saw a plumber perform an open heart surgery, yet I encounter ignorant hacks spreading their "opinions" on issues which require long years of study and training all the time. Sir, I am aware of many things in Russian military on the order (if not two) or magnitude more than any of sources you can possibly employ. It shines through in your rant together with utter ignorance. I do maintain the blog precisely on these issues, so, in order for me not to write a very voluminous response to BS you wrote, my suggestion to you is to go to the blog and read up a little on some of the issues. Obviously you live in La-La Land when speaking on Russian military (or anything power related) but that is expected from people who didn't spend a single day in armed forces, let alone serious ones and have no background.

    I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L’Unita and PressTV.
     
    I would suggest you start with study of Clausewitz and on to Operational Research issues and everything in between, how about some introductory course in Fourier Transformations which are in the foundation of EC(C)M--maybe it will help you to understand why turned off ECM suite on SU-24 in what then was considered low air-to-air threat environment couldn't help. Obviously you missed on how most of Turkish Air Force after that somehow was pretty much grounded and how it had everything to do with signal processing which in USSR/Russia was always world-class, to put it mildly, but it is beyond the scope of this discussion here. My advice to you do not try to offer opinion on something you have no clue about--makes one look... well like a person who reads BBC, RT or L'Unita--in other words, run of the mill internet arm chair strategist who is missing on everything what constitutes new global power balance paradigm, but I repeat myself.
    , @NoseytheDuke
    A wise leader conserves his military strength. Sun Tzu.
    , @Ben_C

    Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.
     
    Regnum...

    Not that I'm necessarily taking "sides" in this matter per se; however, based on the context of your post(s), I assume you are one who also believes Crimea is still part of the Ukraine at present--even though it is not in what is considered "reality"?

    Ah, I see...

    Regnum, as a somewhat unrelated question, what exactly are your thoughts on waxy buildup and tinfoil hats?

    Just curious...

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  26. 5371 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum
    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

     

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.
     
    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.
     
    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.
     
    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L'Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.

    Learn the meaning of the word “retaliation”. It is not synonymous with “escalation”.

    [You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West ]

    I doubt he is, since it isn’t a fact.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
    I know the difference. Tell it to Putin who threatens retaliation, not escalation, every time NATO makes a move. The purchase and smuggling of mainly electronic and optical components is a fact. Not only that but Russians were about to buy Mistral helicopter carriers from France. Remember? The delivery was cancelled because of the sanctions. Russia completely relies on imports when it comes to gas turbine units for its frigates, corvettes and other warships. It is now establishing the production of its own gas turbine units at the Saturn research and production association, and of gears at the Zvezda plant. Russia also imported Sagem Matiz thermal imagers, which are used to make targeting equipment for Russian armored vehicles. Add to that loss of Ukraine which manufactured large amounts of Russian military hardware. According to Russians it will take three years to replace the lost manufacturing facilities.
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  27. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    Read More
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  28. @5371
    Learn the meaning of the word "retaliation". It is not synonymous with "escalation".

    [You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West ]

    I doubt he is, since it isn't a fact.

    I know the difference. Tell it to Putin who threatens retaliation, not escalation, every time NATO makes a move. The purchase and smuggling of mainly electronic and optical components is a fact. Not only that but Russians were about to buy Mistral helicopter carriers from France. Remember? The delivery was cancelled because of the sanctions. Russia completely relies on imports when it comes to gas turbine units for its frigates, corvettes and other warships. It is now establishing the production of its own gas turbine units at the Saturn research and production association, and of gears at the Zvezda plant. Russia also imported Sagem Matiz thermal imagers, which are used to make targeting equipment for Russian armored vehicles. Add to that loss of Ukraine which manufactured large amounts of Russian military hardware. According to Russians it will take three years to replace the lost manufacturing facilities.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    So what? Once the Western gear is replaced successfully, Russia is likely to come out onto the world's military market as a competitor for selling the same gear. As the man (Putin) said - sanctions are an opportunity if the sanctioned has any capability. The longer the sanctions are on, the more self-reliant Russia becomes, in many, many fields, all thanks to the European puppets of the US.

    If Trump does not win, a time may come for some more aggressive Russian actions, not just eternally late defense. How about Russia and China starting to destabilize the West which is on the verge of the financial collapse already: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/555-trillion-derivatives-debt-implosion-about-begin. Offense is the best defense.

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  29. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Regnum Nostrum
    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

     

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.
     
    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.
     
    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.
     
    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L'Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.

    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    I never saw a plumber perform an open heart surgery, yet I encounter ignorant hacks spreading their “opinions” on issues which require long years of study and training all the time. Sir, I am aware of many things in Russian military on the order (if not two) or magnitude more than any of sources you can possibly employ. It shines through in your rant together with utter ignorance. I do maintain the blog precisely on these issues, so, in order for me not to write a very voluminous response to BS you wrote, my suggestion to you is to go to the blog and read up a little on some of the issues. Obviously you live in La-La Land when speaking on Russian military (or anything power related) but that is expected from people who didn’t spend a single day in armed forces, let alone serious ones and have no background.

    I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L’Unita and PressTV.

    I would suggest you start with study of Clausewitz and on to Operational Research issues and everything in between, how about some introductory course in Fourier Transformations which are in the foundation of EC(C)M–maybe it will help you to understand why turned off ECM suite on SU-24 in what then was considered low air-to-air threat environment couldn’t help. Obviously you missed on how most of Turkish Air Force after that somehow was pretty much grounded and how it had everything to do with signal processing which in USSR/Russia was always world-class, to put it mildly, but it is beyond the scope of this discussion here. My advice to you do not try to offer opinion on something you have no clue about–makes one look… well like a person who reads BBC, RT or L’Unita–in other words, run of the mill internet arm chair strategist who is missing on everything what constitutes new global power balance paradigm, but I repeat myself.

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    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum

    Obviously you live in La-La Land when speaking on Russian military.
     
    Facts on the ground prove that it is you who lives in La La Land. The length of your studies does not impress me. Study is poor replacement for the ability to think. The fact that you keep a blog impresses me even less. Everybody who got past second grade has a blog nowadays. These facts have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    That is expected from people who didn’t spend a single day in armed forces.
     
    For a self appointed expert on all things military you should have known that as a citizen of a member state of former Warsaw Pact I had to serve for two years. If you did not know that you did a sloppy research of my posts before responding. Are you equally sloppy in other respects? That two year service does not make me an expert but it shows how hasty and wrong you are in your conclusions.

    I would suggest you start with study of Clausewitz
     
    I am not going to study Clausewitz because I cannot see how it is relevant to current situation. By the way the best generals never studied anything. Themistocles and Hannibal for example. Do you think you could have beaten them in a battle just because you studied Clausewitz?

    Well like a person who reads BBC, RT or L’Unita–in other words, run of the mill internet arm chair strategist who is missing on everything what constitutes new global power balance paradigm, but I repeat myself.
     
    Yes you do repeat yourself because you do not have much new to say. You also once again manifest sloppy and careless approach. I wrote as well that I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world. Did you sharp mind miss that sentence? BBC ,RT and L'Unita are run of the mill but it does not hurt to read them and compare with other news outlets. Finally just for your benefit I will recopy the quote from Sputnik.

    In August, 2015, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that Russia would substitute all foreign components in domestically produced defense products by 2022. According to him, the substitution list includes 186 products from Ukraine and some 800 products from the EU and NATO.
     
    You do trust Deputy Prime Minister Mr. Dmitry Rogozin, don't you. Or do you know more than he does. I wonder if he studied Clausewitz?
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  30. This is a quote from Sputnik, July 10, 2016.

    In August, 2015, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that Russia would substitute all foreign components in domestically produced defense products by 2022. According to him, the substitution list includes 186 products from Ukraine and some 800 products from the EU and NATO.

    Read More
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  31. carthage1 says:
    @5371
    [Chances are a Taliban push maneuvered by Pakistan and US and blessed by the neocons will succeed against current Afghanistan regime . Taliban then would target Russia .]

    Wow. Talk about a triple bank shot.

    But that is the only way left for US to hamstring. Russia . US couldn’t do it in Ukraine US couldn’t do it in Syria . US ,despite trapping Turkey against Russia, had to throw the towel in Mediterranean .
    There is no volunteer left to do the biddings of America. Rumania and Bulgaria are no go . Germany’s FM have exposed the banality of American evil intention.

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  32. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    PS. Sochi was a huge mistake. Not only in wasted funds but in taking Putin’s eye off the ball when the GLOB was up to no good in Ukraine.
    Now, Brazil is facing a mess with Rio Olympics. And we know Greece paid big for Athens Olympics.
    It didn’t do much good for China either. The money should have been spent on environment.

    The Olympic Jinx. Must be avoided at all cost by nations with questionable economies.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.
     
    Despite what the western MSM may maintain, there's been no "economic collapse" in Russia. There was a mild recession; now it's over.
    , @5371
    The whole Russian approach to the Ukrainian entity was wrong, for many years prior to 2014. It had nothing to do with Sochi.
    , @NoseytheDuke
    Sochi turned out to be a mistake but only due to the actions of the West. The Olympic brand is 2nd to none and is supposed to stand for peace, sportsmanship and cooperation between nations, as such it was good branding to associate with it and attempt to show the world that Russia has good intentions. In hindsight it was $50b wasted except it's likely that more Russians will now vacation there instead of spending their money on overseas travel.
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  33. avraham says:

    I have no idea why the west opposes Russia in Syria and to me it makes no sense.I think I heard that Putin was surprised that the USA would be helping ISIS. This to me is also puzzling.

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  34. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    Sir, I returned from Russia 6 days ago. We are talking about some different Russias here.

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  35. @Andrei Martyanov

    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.
     
    I never saw a plumber perform an open heart surgery, yet I encounter ignorant hacks spreading their "opinions" on issues which require long years of study and training all the time. Sir, I am aware of many things in Russian military on the order (if not two) or magnitude more than any of sources you can possibly employ. It shines through in your rant together with utter ignorance. I do maintain the blog precisely on these issues, so, in order for me not to write a very voluminous response to BS you wrote, my suggestion to you is to go to the blog and read up a little on some of the issues. Obviously you live in La-La Land when speaking on Russian military (or anything power related) but that is expected from people who didn't spend a single day in armed forces, let alone serious ones and have no background.

    I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L’Unita and PressTV.
     
    I would suggest you start with study of Clausewitz and on to Operational Research issues and everything in between, how about some introductory course in Fourier Transformations which are in the foundation of EC(C)M--maybe it will help you to understand why turned off ECM suite on SU-24 in what then was considered low air-to-air threat environment couldn't help. Obviously you missed on how most of Turkish Air Force after that somehow was pretty much grounded and how it had everything to do with signal processing which in USSR/Russia was always world-class, to put it mildly, but it is beyond the scope of this discussion here. My advice to you do not try to offer opinion on something you have no clue about--makes one look... well like a person who reads BBC, RT or L'Unita--in other words, run of the mill internet arm chair strategist who is missing on everything what constitutes new global power balance paradigm, but I repeat myself.

    Obviously you live in La-La Land when speaking on Russian military.

    Facts on the ground prove that it is you who lives in La La Land. The length of your studies does not impress me. Study is poor replacement for the ability to think. The fact that you keep a blog impresses me even less. Everybody who got past second grade has a blog nowadays. These facts have nothing to do with the issue at hand.

    That is expected from people who didn’t spend a single day in armed forces.

    For a self appointed expert on all things military you should have known that as a citizen of a member state of former Warsaw Pact I had to serve for two years. If you did not know that you did a sloppy research of my posts before responding. Are you equally sloppy in other respects? That two year service does not make me an expert but it shows how hasty and wrong you are in your conclusions.

    I would suggest you start with study of Clausewitz

    I am not going to study Clausewitz because I cannot see how it is relevant to current situation. By the way the best generals never studied anything. Themistocles and Hannibal for example. Do you think you could have beaten them in a battle just because you studied Clausewitz?

    Well like a person who reads BBC, RT or L’Unita–in other words, run of the mill internet arm chair strategist who is missing on everything what constitutes new global power balance paradigm, but I repeat myself.

    Yes you do repeat yourself because you do not have much new to say. You also once again manifest sloppy and careless approach. I wrote as well that I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world. Did you sharp mind miss that sentence? BBC ,RT and L’Unita are run of the mill but it does not hurt to read them and compare with other news outlets. Finally just for your benefit I will recopy the quote from Sputnik.

    In August, 2015, Deputy Prime Minister Dmitry Rogozin said that Russia would substitute all foreign components in domestically produced defense products by 2022. According to him, the substitution list includes 186 products from Ukraine and some 800 products from the EU and NATO.

    You do trust Deputy Prime Minister Mr. Dmitry Rogozin, don’t you. Or do you know more than he does. I wonder if he studied Clausewitz?

    Read More
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  36. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    Study is poor replacement for the ability to think.

    Tell this to your surgeon or dentist when they will perform on you. Good luck with your demagoguery.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum
    Is that all you could come up with? Well at least you are not repeating yourself. Your view though is simplistic. Study is poor replacement for the ability to think does not mean that study is not necessary. But we can only study subjects that others have discovered through thinking. Where do you figure all that knowledge we can study today came from. Somebody outside of the educational system had to discover new things. Did Newton learn all the things he passed down to us in school? Did Archimedes learn the Archimedes principle in school. Did your favorite Clausewitz learn his stuff in school? Do you think that all the accumulated knowledge we have was always in schools? You can study what is already known after that you have to think.
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  37. @Andrei Martyanov

    Study is poor replacement for the ability to think.
     
    Tell this to your surgeon or dentist when they will perform on you. Good luck with your demagoguery.

    Is that all you could come up with? Well at least you are not repeating yourself. Your view though is simplistic. Study is poor replacement for the ability to think does not mean that study is not necessary. But we can only study subjects that others have discovered through thinking. Where do you figure all that knowledge we can study today came from. Somebody outside of the educational system had to discover new things. Did Newton learn all the things he passed down to us in school? Did Archimedes learn the Archimedes principle in school. Did your favorite Clausewitz learn his stuff in school? Do you think that all the accumulated knowledge we have was always in schools? You can study what is already known after that you have to think.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Is that all you could come up with?
     
    Since I don't have time to argue with all kinds of hacks constantly, here is a small test for you from basic course of Theory of Operations and Tactics taught in any serious military academy. I graduated one with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces on officer positions, including operational staff level. I am also published in US and have a book in works precisely on military power. If you will tell me what is the difference between two and what they describe we may continue to communicate, if not--then, yes, this is what I could come up with only.

    https://s32.postimg.org/xd27qlxfp/formula1.jpg

    or this:

    https://s32.postimg.org/lqvr75sxh/form1.jpg

    I'll give you a hint--it is all war related., but I am sure they told you this during your two years service as enlisted.
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  38. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    Turkey sits on the Dardanells… a choke point for Russia.

    That is just a given fact, you must know that Russia has interests in keeping these shipping lines clear… etc.

    The rest of it is BS!

    Nato has lived too long, now it is creepy.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Turkey sits on the Dardanells… a choke point for Russia.
     
    True, and it is also a choke point for NATO navies thus making Black Sea Russia's internal lake with huge unsinkable aircraft carrier of Crimea having a commanding control not only over Black Sea but also deep into the Eastern Med.

    That is just a given fact, you must know that Russia has interests in keeping these shipping lines clear… etc.
     
    Depends for what. Obviously Russia is interested in that but considering the ranges of Russia's cruise missiles and the weight of the salvo NATO's Southern flank is not in a position to do stupid things, albeit in case of NATO "strategists" one can expect any suicidal move.
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  39. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Regnum Nostrum
    Is that all you could come up with? Well at least you are not repeating yourself. Your view though is simplistic. Study is poor replacement for the ability to think does not mean that study is not necessary. But we can only study subjects that others have discovered through thinking. Where do you figure all that knowledge we can study today came from. Somebody outside of the educational system had to discover new things. Did Newton learn all the things he passed down to us in school? Did Archimedes learn the Archimedes principle in school. Did your favorite Clausewitz learn his stuff in school? Do you think that all the accumulated knowledge we have was always in schools? You can study what is already known after that you have to think.

    Is that all you could come up with?

    Since I don’t have time to argue with all kinds of hacks constantly, here is a small test for you from basic course of Theory of Operations and Tactics taught in any serious military academy. I graduated one with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces on officer positions, including operational staff level. I am also published in US and have a book in works precisely on military power. If you will tell me what is the difference between two and what they describe we may continue to communicate, if not–then, yes, this is what I could come up with only.

    or this:

    I’ll give you a hint–it is all war related., but I am sure they told you this during your two years service as enlisted.

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    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum

    I graduated from military academy with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces.

     

    Is that why Russian navy is inferior to the US navy? You desperate attempts to impress me are ridiculous. Since I have not studied the military pseudo science I cannot answer but my lifelong experience and the ability to observe and reason brought me to the following conclusion. The whole of so called military pseudo science boils down to this. A general sends in a thousand troops and once they are all killed sends in another thousand. The general who loses all of his troops first concedes defeat and writes a memoir. I have a better proposal for you. Hang on here for another two years and than we can compare notes who was closer to the truth. You with all that education and books published in US or me the uneducated amateur.
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  40. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @edNels


    Turkey sits on the Dardanells... a choke point for Russia.

    That is just a given fact, you must know that Russia has interests in keeping these shipping lines clear... etc.

    The rest of it is BS!

    Nato has lived too long, now it is creepy.

    Turkey sits on the Dardanells… a choke point for Russia.

    True, and it is also a choke point for NATO navies thus making Black Sea Russia’s internal lake with huge unsinkable aircraft carrier of Crimea having a commanding control not only over Black Sea but also deep into the Eastern Med.

    That is just a given fact, you must know that Russia has interests in keeping these shipping lines clear… etc.

    Depends for what. Obviously Russia is interested in that but considering the ranges of Russia’s cruise missiles and the weight of the salvo NATO’s Southern flank is not in a position to do stupid things, albeit in case of NATO “strategists” one can expect any suicidal move.

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  41. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    Russia in this day, smaller since the break up of the USSR, but Russia is even today on 6th of the world’s dry land! most of it is like Canada… useless stepps and tundra etc..

    And one thing I must emphathise with is that Russia has some culture… unlike us… US that were!

    we don’t have much culture, I love Blue GRass music… and I love so much of what is americana.. John Wayne… etc. JonnieAppleseedChapman… one of ours!

    But we weren’t raised to be monsters who would reek hasards to the less fortunate !

    That wasn’t what we were raised to do…..

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    • Replies: @Rabbitnexus
    I disagree. Americans were raised to do this, which is why you are doing it so effectively now. The lies told as history are myths. Myths told as history and the Hollywood program always put you at the top and out in front. Yes Americans know they won everything from the Trojan Wars to WWI and WWII and Vietnam, Korea and everything in between and since because John Wayne did it all and caught it on film to show them. They even know, consider it to be self evident they will save the world from alien invasions in the future. The flags, the bullsh!t myth of a shining city on a hill all of it filtered through a net which caught all the negative and any other people or nations and left only the rosy picture and the USA as the only one ever to do anything good. All the bad bits and everyone else got filtered out and is the rest of the world to you and that is why even the best intentioned of your people come off wanting when it comes to recognising your actual role in world affairs. Both how negative it has been, as well as for how long. I am sorry to be rude, I don't mean to. I love Creedence Clearwater Revival and John Fogerty especially since he turned out to be 90% of it when he did his own thing. But so much else even in the supposedly sacred ranks of our generation's muses was fake, deliberate misdirection and programming. Dylan didn't write the music, it was Leonard Cohen all along. They're both Jews so what does it matter? It matters that so much of what was meant to be REAL was not. Manipulated. exported across the Western world as all we baby boomers came onboard. The result was delusion. The illusion has passed for me. It did for many of us but the place where it began, the land of illusions still is wearing those rose coloured glasses and failing to see past the fog of the show going on around them.
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  42. Rehmat says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.
     
    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you--guess what, we are going to be talking as equals. If you have some major character flaws you will become hysterical, delusional, bad-mouthed but that in no way will change the fact that we will be equal and I will have as much chance to blow your brains out as you will have to do the same to me. Russia is the only nation in the world which can wipe out US from the face of the Earth, moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity. Moreover, Russia is the only other nation in the world which can conventionally, that is without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, strike US proper and create a whole number of 911 "equivalents" in many US urban centers and military installations. The reason for that is because Russia's real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons. Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and "elites" because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this "unequal" to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise. This explanation is on fingers, so to speak--the level reserved for people brainwashed with propaganda and having very limited knowledge of issues which are crucial for the new emerging power balance. I will omit here the issue of war records comparison since, indeed, Russia here is not "equal", she is in the league of her own and that too adds to Western distress. Did I explain it well or should I go deeper into the issue of "equality"?;-)

    You may not like it but you’re talking like Ukraine’s former Jewish prime minister Yulia Tymoshenko who wanted to kill Putin.

    “I’m ready to grab a machinegun and shoot that mother F****ker (Putin) in the head,” she said.

    “One has to take up arms and go wipe out these damn ‘katsaps’ (Russians) together with their leader,” the voice said in Russian, without mentioning Putin by name. Watch the video below.

    https://rehmat1.com/2014/03/27/ukraine-former-jewish-pm-calls-for-russian-holocaust/

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  43. @Regnum Nostrum
    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

     

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.
     
    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.
     
    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.
     
    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L'Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.

    A wise leader conserves his military strength. Sun Tzu.

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  44. Kiza says:
    @Regnum Nostrum
    I know the difference. Tell it to Putin who threatens retaliation, not escalation, every time NATO makes a move. The purchase and smuggling of mainly electronic and optical components is a fact. Not only that but Russians were about to buy Mistral helicopter carriers from France. Remember? The delivery was cancelled because of the sanctions. Russia completely relies on imports when it comes to gas turbine units for its frigates, corvettes and other warships. It is now establishing the production of its own gas turbine units at the Saturn research and production association, and of gears at the Zvezda plant. Russia also imported Sagem Matiz thermal imagers, which are used to make targeting equipment for Russian armored vehicles. Add to that loss of Ukraine which manufactured large amounts of Russian military hardware. According to Russians it will take three years to replace the lost manufacturing facilities.

    So what? Once the Western gear is replaced successfully, Russia is likely to come out onto the world’s military market as a competitor for selling the same gear. As the man (Putin) said – sanctions are an opportunity if the sanctioned has any capability. The longer the sanctions are on, the more self-reliant Russia becomes, in many, many fields, all thanks to the European puppets of the US.

    If Trump does not win, a time may come for some more aggressive Russian actions, not just eternally late defense. How about Russia and China starting to destabilize the West which is on the verge of the financial collapse already: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/555-trillion-derivatives-debt-implosion-about-begin. Offense is the best defense.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    I have no inside information, but I would be very sceptical if Russia got itself dependent on Western suppliers for its life-or-death defense needs: not normal Russian behaviour.

    As to the French Mistral ships: Russian military was against the purchase, since the ships were demonstrably unsuitable for Russian military needs and climatic extremes. My view is that it was a political purchase: Russia most likely wanted to drive a wedge between France and US: didn't work. Russia is now working on its own version of Mistral. The cost of Mistrals was reasonable, and one can always learn something new. Russia has a long track record of building excellent surface ships and submarines, so I highly doubt there was technical necessity.

    Russian may or may not be dependent on foreign suppliers for its defense needs, but US surely is:
    [Report Says U.S. Military Dangerously Dependent on Foreign Suppliers]
    http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/entry/report-says-u.s.-military-dangerously-dependent-on-foreign-suppliers
    {Urgent action is needed to reduce the U.S. military’s dangerous dependence on foreign suppliers for the raw materials, parts, and finished products needed to defend America, according to a new study prepared by Brigadier General John Adams (U.S. Army, Retired).}

    My oh, my: what has happened to our America.

    And US is not shy being dependent on Russia for crucial defense needs:
    [U.S. needs up to 18 more Russian rocket engines: Pentagon]
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-space-russia-idUSKCN0X600H
    {The Pentagon will need to buy up to 18 more Russian-built RD-180 engines to power rockets carrying U.S. military satellites into space over the next six years or so, Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work said in an interview on Friday.}

    Ouch!.

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  45. @Priss Factor
    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    PS. Sochi was a huge mistake. Not only in wasted funds but in taking Putin's eye off the ball when the GLOB was up to no good in Ukraine.
    Now, Brazil is facing a mess with Rio Olympics. And we know Greece paid big for Athens Olympics.
    It didn't do much good for China either. The money should have been spent on environment.

    The Olympic Jinx. Must be avoided at all cost by nations with questionable economies.

    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    Despite what the western MSM may maintain, there’s been no “economic collapse” in Russia. There was a mild recession; now it’s over.

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  46. Avery says:
    @Kiza
    So what? Once the Western gear is replaced successfully, Russia is likely to come out onto the world's military market as a competitor for selling the same gear. As the man (Putin) said - sanctions are an opportunity if the sanctioned has any capability. The longer the sanctions are on, the more self-reliant Russia becomes, in many, many fields, all thanks to the European puppets of the US.

    If Trump does not win, a time may come for some more aggressive Russian actions, not just eternally late defense. How about Russia and China starting to destabilize the West which is on the verge of the financial collapse already: http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-06-25/555-trillion-derivatives-debt-implosion-about-begin. Offense is the best defense.

    I have no inside information, but I would be very sceptical if Russia got itself dependent on Western suppliers for its life-or-death defense needs: not normal Russian behaviour.

    As to the French Mistral ships: Russian military was against the purchase, since the ships were demonstrably unsuitable for Russian military needs and climatic extremes. My view is that it was a political purchase: Russia most likely wanted to drive a wedge between France and US: didn’t work. Russia is now working on its own version of Mistral. The cost of Mistrals was reasonable, and one can always learn something new. Russia has a long track record of building excellent surface ships and submarines, so I highly doubt there was technical necessity.

    Russian may or may not be dependent on foreign suppliers for its defense needs, but US surely is:
    [Report Says U.S. Military Dangerously Dependent on Foreign Suppliers]

    http://www.americanmanufacturing.org/blog/entry/report-says-u.s.-military-dangerously-dependent-on-foreign-suppliers

    {Urgent action is needed to reduce the U.S. military’s dangerous dependence on foreign suppliers for the raw materials, parts, and finished products needed to defend America, according to a new study prepared by Brigadier General John Adams (U.S. Army, Retired).}

    My oh, my: what has happened to our America.

    And US is not shy being dependent on Russia for crucial defense needs:
    [U.S. needs up to 18 more Russian rocket engines: Pentagon]

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-space-russia-idUSKCN0X600H

    {The Pentagon will need to buy up to 18 more Russian-built RD-180 engines to power rockets carrying U.S. military satellites into space over the next six years or so, Deputy Defense Secretary Robert Work said in an interview on Friday.}

    Ouch!.

    Read More
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  47. @Seamus Padraig

    So while Russia, Iran, Hezbollah and the Syrian have found a great deal of common interests, Russia is not in the position to act like a mini-USA and just give orders to everybody else. There are real differences in opinion between these loosely allied forces and each one retains a very large freedom of maneuver.
     
    If this is true, then the Syrians are probably f_cked. The Russians and the Iranians need to set aside their differences, put their heads together and come up with a workable and mutually agreed upon strategy. The needs of each party must be taken into account, and their duties must be clearly delineated. Otherwise, it'll just be too easy for the AngloZionists to sow confusion and play them off against one another.

    And like commenter #2, I fail to see what is to be gained by putting too much faith in these farcical negotiations with the US. As Clausewitz once said, nothing was ever won at the negotiating table that could not be held on the field of battle. Washington, moreover, is simply not a credible negotiating partner, having double-crossed both Russia and Iran over and over. VVP would be very foolish to trust them.

    I don’t agree. The model which says everyone must be on exactly the same page, striving for one goal, one way, under one command, is not traditionally how wars and battles have been fought and won. IT is one way. It is also the US/NATO way and it clearly doesn’t end up looking anything like an effective or homogeous front. The main issue is if the goals of the allies are mutually supportive and if they are capable of working in chorus to achieve the mutually agreed upon goals. Despite wanting Russian help the Shia players as such will always demand more autonomy than Sunnis for one thing and even within their own ranks what we have is not a top down authoritarian regime but a cooperative of autonomous ones. The smart money will always be on my Shia brothers in battle. Russia has every right to pick and choose where and what they do also and I am confident they will provide what Allah decrees is necessary. No more or less hopefully because whilst it is Russia’s fight it remains more directly the fight of those whose lives are directly in danger and Russia has yet chosen to put some of their lives in danger on their behalf. I was very sad to see two more Russian servicemen were killed in action a couple of days ago. Two Russian helicopter pilots, may Allah grant them peace and Jannah.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, if you are a Muslim, I'm sure that your sorrow over Muslims' murder of non-Muslim Russians is truly sincere.

    Do you think that we're all that dangerously naive? Fuck off, worshipper of the pedopile-"prophet" (Shit Be Upon Him).
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  48. @edNels


    Russia in this day, smaller since the break up of the USSR, but Russia is even today on 6th of the world's dry land! most of it is like Canada... useless stepps and tundra etc..

    And one thing I must emphathise with is that Russia has some culture... unlike us... US that were!

    we don't have much culture, I love Blue GRass music... and I love so much of what is americana.. John Wayne... etc. JonnieAppleseedChapman... one of ours!

    But we weren't raised to be monsters who would reek hasards to the less fortunate !

    That wasn't what we were raised to do.....

    I disagree. Americans were raised to do this, which is why you are doing it so effectively now. The lies told as history are myths. Myths told as history and the Hollywood program always put you at the top and out in front. Yes Americans know they won everything from the Trojan Wars to WWI and WWII and Vietnam, Korea and everything in between and since because John Wayne did it all and caught it on film to show them. They even know, consider it to be self evident they will save the world from alien invasions in the future. The flags, the bullsh!t myth of a shining city on a hill all of it filtered through a net which caught all the negative and any other people or nations and left only the rosy picture and the USA as the only one ever to do anything good. All the bad bits and everyone else got filtered out and is the rest of the world to you and that is why even the best intentioned of your people come off wanting when it comes to recognising your actual role in world affairs. Both how negative it has been, as well as for how long. I am sorry to be rude, I don’t mean to. I love Creedence Clearwater Revival and John Fogerty especially since he turned out to be 90% of it when he did his own thing. But so much else even in the supposedly sacred ranks of our generation’s muses was fake, deliberate misdirection and programming. Dylan didn’t write the music, it was Leonard Cohen all along. They’re both Jews so what does it matter? It matters that so much of what was meant to be REAL was not. Manipulated. exported across the Western world as all we baby boomers came onboard. The result was delusion. The illusion has passed for me. It did for many of us but the place where it began, the land of illusions still is wearing those rose coloured glasses and failing to see past the fog of the show going on around them.

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  49. I very much hope that Trump is the new president. He, at least, understands that to bait Russia is to hurry Armageddon. Unfortunately Clinton is a tried and true warmonger and will end life on Earth!

    Read More
    • Replies: @edNels


    I agree that she is damned fool, married to a damned fool...

    I don't know if she or them can be the end of the world though.

    I think we are headed to Armeggedon, we are headed there, if we don't get our act together!

    I subscribe to an idea, that the mans world, the world of men... we need to have a better system of things... well, socialism...but more honest and more real, than has been done yet.

    You have to see that corporatism is just rotten...
    , @avraham
    That is a perfect term for it "to bait Russia." That is exactly what NATO is doing. What is the point of provoking Russia? --especially when they are doing nothing wrong disturbers me.
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  50. 5371 says:
    @Priss Factor
    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    PS. Sochi was a huge mistake. Not only in wasted funds but in taking Putin's eye off the ball when the GLOB was up to no good in Ukraine.
    Now, Brazil is facing a mess with Rio Olympics. And we know Greece paid big for Athens Olympics.
    It didn't do much good for China either. The money should have been spent on environment.

    The Olympic Jinx. Must be avoided at all cost by nations with questionable economies.

    The whole Russian approach to the Ukrainian entity was wrong, for many years prior to 2014. It had nothing to do with Sochi.

    Read More
    • Agree: Andrei Martyanov
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Putin's entire approach to his foreign policy problems has been utterly incompetent. Unless, destruction of Russia is the goal, then he's on the button.

    I have no trouble with his support of Syria. The Assad regime is actually the better choice in that sad country, and actually is better for Israel.

    Putin's approach in Ukraine has been utterly stupid, and his provoking his neighbors (NATO is not provoking him) are acts of utter stupidity. He may think he's opposing the US in Ukraine, but the US is not involved there in any substantial way.

    Saker's boogieman is the US, and the US has been utterly incompetent, even worse than Putin, during Obama's regime.
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  51. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:
    @Archie1954
    I very much hope that Trump is the new president. He, at least, understands that to bait Russia is to hurry Armageddon. Unfortunately Clinton is a tried and true warmonger and will end life on Earth!

    I agree that she is damned fool, married to a damned fool…

    I don’t know if she or them can be the end of the world though.

    I think we are headed to Armeggedon, we are headed there, if we don’t get our act together!

    I subscribe to an idea, that the mans world, the world of men… we need to have a better system of things… well, socialism…but more honest and more real, than has been done yet.

    You have to see that corporatism is just rotten…

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    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Corporatism and socialism are kissing cousins. The only difference is the coterie of incompetents in the ruling class. Both have similar ends.

    Socialism has been a failure where ever it's been implemented. And, don't insult my intelligence by saying it's never been tried. It has been repeatedly tried and it bankrupts a country. Corporatism will as well, even if does take more time.
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  52. avraham says:
    @Archie1954
    I very much hope that Trump is the new president. He, at least, understands that to bait Russia is to hurry Armageddon. Unfortunately Clinton is a tried and true warmonger and will end life on Earth!

    That is a perfect term for it “to bait Russia.” That is exactly what NATO is doing. What is the point of provoking Russia? –especially when they are doing nothing wrong disturbers me.

    Read More
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  53. Ben_C says:
    @Regnum Nostrum
    You can rant as much as you want because it changes nothing.

    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you–guess what, we are going to be talking as equals.

     

    If that is the case why is Putin begging at least once a month that the West should recognize Russian interests. His grovelling is sometimes embarrassing.

    Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.
     
    I can see the evidence of that almost every day. Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    The reason for that is because Russia’s real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons.
     
    I doubt it. You may not be aware of the fact that before the sanctions a lot of components in Russian military hardware came from the West . Even Putin has complained recently that the sanctions hindered his fight against terrorism. Today one of the Russian superior helicopters was shot down by low tech Daesh fighters. I also wonder what happened to the vaunted Russian electronic warfare during the shoot down of the Russian jet over Turkey.

    Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and “elites” because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this “unequal” to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise.
     
    I am sorry but NATO is not behaving as somebody who is afraid. Let me close by saying that I cannot be brainwashed or blinded by hatred or admiration. I do not read much of mainstream media except BBC, RT, Corriere della Serra, L'Unita and PressTV. I also follow quite a few other sources from around the world but in the end I always form my own conclusions and this is what they are. Nothing more, nothing less. I do not support one side or the other because both sides represent the same economic system which I despise.

    Each time NATO strengthens its position on the border of Russia, builds a new military installation or sends more troops and equipment all Putin does is threaten with retaliation. Except he only retaliates with more talk of retaliation.

    Regnum…

    Not that I’m necessarily taking “sides” in this matter per se; however, based on the context of your post(s), I assume you are one who also believes Crimea is still part of the Ukraine at present–even though it is not in what is considered “reality”?

    Ah, I see…

    Regnum, as a somewhat unrelated question, what exactly are your thoughts on waxy buildup and tinfoil hats?

    Just curious…

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  54. rakewind says:

    Not being an expert on these matters, I won’t comment on the technical aspects of the US versus Russia, but it is perhaps worth noting that one comprises a nation of cowboys – literally and metaphorically – whereas the other is a nation of world-class chess players and from this perspective I know who I’d put my money on in any prospective conflict. Whoever else is contributing to the confusion in e.g. the US State Dept., they have a paranoiac Russophobe in the form of Zbigniew Brzezinski beavering away in the background to ensure that the neocons are provided with a form of intellectual respectability, never mind that he’s been wrong on pretty much everything since his magnum opus was published in 1997. Crucially the US is in an advanced state of functional meltdown, being morally, politically, socially, financially and spiritually bankrupt. Personally I wouldn’t rule out a second Civil War in the foreseeable future, (who do you think the internment camps are being built for?),whilst I would judge that the eventual Balkanisation of the US in it’s present form is virtually inevitable, though probably not in my lifetime (I’m 75). I just wish the UK would put some distance between us and the US, but I’m guessing that what’s often referred to as AngloZionism makes that a faint hope.

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  55. @5371
    The whole Russian approach to the Ukrainian entity was wrong, for many years prior to 2014. It had nothing to do with Sochi.

    Putin’s entire approach to his foreign policy problems has been utterly incompetent. Unless, destruction of Russia is the goal, then he’s on the button.

    I have no trouble with his support of Syria. The Assad regime is actually the better choice in that sad country, and actually is better for Israel.

    Putin’s approach in Ukraine has been utterly stupid, and his provoking his neighbors (NATO is not provoking him) are acts of utter stupidity. He may think he’s opposing the US in Ukraine, but the US is not involved there in any substantial way.

    Saker’s boogieman is the US, and the US has been utterly incompetent, even worse than Putin, during Obama’s regime.

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    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    You are either a US government propagandist or a fool.

    You won't acknowledge that US and "allied" troops conducting exercising right on Russia's borders is provocative and belligerent. Yet somehow it's Russia, according to you, that has been provocative or belligerent on its borders, In Ukraine.

    Would you consider it perfectly fine -- not provocative or belligerent -- if Russia conducted military exercises just over the Mexico-US border? Sure you would.
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  56. @edNels


    I agree that she is damned fool, married to a damned fool...

    I don't know if she or them can be the end of the world though.

    I think we are headed to Armeggedon, we are headed there, if we don't get our act together!

    I subscribe to an idea, that the mans world, the world of men... we need to have a better system of things... well, socialism...but more honest and more real, than has been done yet.

    You have to see that corporatism is just rotten...

    Corporatism and socialism are kissing cousins. The only difference is the coterie of incompetents in the ruling class. Both have similar ends.

    Socialism has been a failure where ever it’s been implemented. And, don’t insult my intelligence by saying it’s never been tried. It has been repeatedly tried and it bankrupts a country. Corporatism will as well, even if does take more time.

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  57. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jim Christian
    When I saw the US bombing from the Persian Gulf rather than from Carrier Air in the Med, I relaxed. We aren't serious about unseating Assad. Perhaps Libya and Egypt and Saddam convinced them that what comes after is always worse. Fact is, we should hold our noses, send a carrier and full complement and support Russia as we have with Iran. While we're at it, take care of ISIS. Any action on Syria demands a heavy tactical and logistical presence in the Med, period.

    One wonder why we abandoned the Med.

    “While we’re at it, take care of ISIS”

    Still in denial, JC? The US is taking care of ISIS, i.e. supplying them with weapons, shielding them from serious attack (a little less so now, but still as much as possible).

    This week, the “good rebels” were left high and dry, abandoned by US jets that ‘overflew’ to another target. They left all their US supplied weapons to ISIS. Were these the weapons ISIS then used to shoot down the Russian helicopter?

    U.S. Policy in Syria: An Interview with VA Senator Richard Black

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  58. Durruti says:
    @Durruti
    Saker's Own Words.

    "The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so."

    Say What!!!

    And followed by:

    " Of course, the real solution would be to make a deal with Russia and Assad and then jointly crush Daesh, but that would extremely humiliating for the United States. There are probably constituencies lobbying for all these options right now and I won’t even try to guess who will prevail."

    Yipes!!!

    *We are reading an advocacy for American Military Invasion on a vast scale.

    Next, will the Saker will urge Zionist "boots on the ground" as a curative for the Syrian nation?

    It should not be news for anyone on the UNZ forum, that Zionist and Zionist American Imperialists already have "boots on the ground" in Syria, as well as Afghanistan, Iraq, and the Ukraine.

    This article and its advocacies appear to be direct Propaganda from Moscow, Washington DC, and the Rothschilds coalition of Oligarchs centered in Tel Aviv.

    The Russian Government is no more free from the control of their Zionist American Fifth Column Traitors than the Government of the United States.

    What don't We Know!

    1. More than 60 million Russians are separated from their Nation, from the Baltic Principalities, to Byelorussia, Kazakstan, to Georgia, and to the Ukraine.

    2. The 5th Column Traitors continue to rule in Russia.

    3. The assassins of the Kennedys and of the American Republic remain in power in the USA.

    4. The Zionist ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians will condemn the Jewish Church for eternity.

    5. Putin's loving Press Conference with fascist mass murderer Rothschild puppet Netenyahoo, in which the Palestinian people were not once mentioned (treated as being -already- non existent), is the evidence (the fingerprints-DNA), that identify some of the criminals.

    The fine American Statesman, former Congressman Ron Paul, has urged that All American Troops be brought home. There is proper VISION.

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiy1bPwoenNAhWC9h4KHRJdAo4QFggoMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ronpaul.com%2F2011-08-18%2Fron-paul-bring-the-troops-home-now%2F&usg=AFQjCNHu9Y4I6-rr5h_d1vD40mD8GWPifQ&sig2=gMANK1og9EbTkqVvBhT5rQ

    For the Restoration of the American Democratic Republic!

    Peter J. Antonsen

    In Plain Sight

    I did not expect anyone to comment on the Keynote Writer, Saker, expressing support for American Troops to openly (and unconstitutionally), invade Syria.

    ” The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so.” Saker – alias -……………………..

    Heaven forbid: that any participant should stick to the subject of appraising the Keynote (Subject) Article. And its author?

    The imperialist advocacy is in Plain Sight. No one notices? No one thinks it is important? No one cares? Agree? Disagree?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Yes, the USA should stop arming and aiding the Islamist savages of ISIS. Yes, we should keep our troops the Hell away from Syria and Iraq.

    And yes, the USA should join with Russia in bombing ISIS and all other Islamists into oblivion wherever they surface.

    In fact, replace "Islamist" with "Muslim" and we could have a compelling basis for permanent Russia-USA military cooperation.
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  59. @Andrei Martyanov

    Is that all you could come up with?
     
    Since I don't have time to argue with all kinds of hacks constantly, here is a small test for you from basic course of Theory of Operations and Tactics taught in any serious military academy. I graduated one with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces on officer positions, including operational staff level. I am also published in US and have a book in works precisely on military power. If you will tell me what is the difference between two and what they describe we may continue to communicate, if not--then, yes, this is what I could come up with only.

    https://s32.postimg.org/xd27qlxfp/formula1.jpg

    or this:

    https://s32.postimg.org/lqvr75sxh/form1.jpg

    I'll give you a hint--it is all war related., but I am sure they told you this during your two years service as enlisted.

    I graduated from military academy with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces.

    Is that why Russian navy is inferior to the US navy? You desperate attempts to impress me are ridiculous. Since I have not studied the military pseudo science I cannot answer but my lifelong experience and the ability to observe and reason brought me to the following conclusion. The whole of so called military pseudo science boils down to this. A general sends in a thousand troops and once they are all killed sends in another thousand. The general who loses all of his troops first concedes defeat and writes a memoir. I have a better proposal for you. Hang on here for another two years and than we can compare notes who was closer to the truth. You with all that education and books published in US or me the uneducated amateur.

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    • Replies: @Konga
    It's obvious you're seriously hurt, "Regnum". Why don't you just shut up? We all saw you've lost.
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  60. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    This suggests that the longstanding, critical problems in training and morale in the SAA have yet to be solved, even if their equipment has improved.
     
    This is the issue which can not be resolved in Arab world. Culture, rooted in Sunni Islam, does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there. Especially so against the background of increasingly sophisticated C4ISR complex required for the modern battlefield.

    I’m sorry, what??!!

    Sunni Islam does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there

    What does that even mean? What does Sunni Islam have to do with lack of ‘combined arms warfare’? How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia’s not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

    I personally think Egypt would be doing much better if it wasn’t knee-capped by the three-way political ploys between it, the US and Israel.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    Long article, but interesting read.

    [Why Arabs Lose Wars]
    http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

    (this is about modern Arabs and modern Arab armies of course : in their time Arabs were excellent warriors).
    , @Andrei Martyanov
    You may start with getting acquainted with Colonel Atkine's (US Army) treatise (there are two of them):

    http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

    Which very well fits with opinions of such people as Colonel Sergievsky who served as an adviser to Syrian Armed Forces in 1973 and left a treatise with telling title "One Must Not Fight Like This". Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps--there are many issues there. But, in order for you to enlighten yourself on this issue even more, I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly's outstanding work "The Closing Of Muslim Mind", which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam's issue with cause and effect, which play a decisive role in combat training and technological development of armed forces, among many other fields.

    https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Muslim-Mind-Intellectual-Islamist/dp/1933859911

    How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia’s not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?
     
    I can not say anything one way or another re: Pakistani military, other than within the framework of its conflicts with India, but I do have a copy of Malik's "Quranic Concept Of War" and I cannot find anything rational or academic, which would apply to the first rate armed force, there. Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.
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  61. Avery says:
    @Talha
    I'm sorry, what??!!

    Sunni Islam does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there
     
    What does that even mean? What does Sunni Islam have to do with lack of 'combined arms warfare'? How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia's not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

    I personally think Egypt would be doing much better if it wasn't knee-capped by the three-way political ploys between it, the US and Israel.

    Peace.

    Long article, but interesting read.

    [Why Arabs Lose Wars]

    http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

    (this is about modern Arabs and modern Arab armies of course : in their time Arabs were excellent warriors).

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Great article - thanks! And I agree:
    "A lack of cooperation is most apparent in the failure of all Arab armies to succeed at combined arms operations. A regular Jordanian army infantry company, for example, is man-for-man as good as a comparable Israeli company; at battalion level, however, the coordination required for combined arms operations, with artillery, air, and logistics support, is simply absent."

    I have read often of Pakistani trainers (whether ground forces or air forces) complain of the inability of many of their trainees to 'get it'. Also, the best don't always succeed in command; sometimes it depends on who your uncle or tribe is. Many of the modern Arab armies are a joke nor are they usually put into a fight where it is actually worth losing their skin. In Pakistan, the army is dominated by Punjabis - everyone knows it, but it makes sense, they have always been better at the martial side of things, why would someone instead want to replace them with Sindhis or something - other than for SJW purposes.

    Again though, what this has to do with Sunni Islam is beyond me since Arabs are a minority of all Sunni Muslims.

    Peace.
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  62. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    I'm sorry, what??!!

    Sunni Islam does not allow for serious combined arms warfare skills to take a deep root there
     
    What does that even mean? What does Sunni Islam have to do with lack of 'combined arms warfare'? How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia's not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?

    http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/pakistan/air-force-combat.htm

    I personally think Egypt would be doing much better if it wasn't knee-capped by the three-way political ploys between it, the US and Israel.

    Peace.

    You may start with getting acquainted with Colonel Atkine’s (US Army) treatise (there are two of them):

    http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

    Which very well fits with opinions of such people as Colonel Sergievsky who served as an adviser to Syrian Armed Forces in 1973 and left a treatise with telling title “One Must Not Fight Like This”. Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps–there are many issues there. But, in order for you to enlighten yourself on this issue even more, I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly’s outstanding work “The Closing Of Muslim Mind”, which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam’s issue with cause and effect, which play a decisive role in combat training and technological development of armed forces, among many other fields.

    https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Muslim-Mind-Intellectual-Islamist/dp/1933859911

    How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia’s not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?

    I can not say anything one way or another re: Pakistani military, other than within the framework of its conflicts with India, but I do have a copy of Malik’s “Quranic Concept Of War” and I cannot find anything rational or academic, which would apply to the first rate armed force, there. Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps–there are many issues there.
     
    Like I mentioned to Avery, so have Pakistani trainers, you could likely console each other over a non-alcoholic get together. Again, why is this an issue with Sunnis en masse?

    I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly’s outstanding work “The Closing Of Muslim Mind”, which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam’s issue with cause and effect.
     
    I've read some of his work (articles mostly), and being fairly knowledgeable about Islam (and Muslim history) myself, I am surprised at the number of mistakes he makes (some are minor, some are major). You can link me any of his articles and I'll point the specifics out to you. Just on the book description it says this: "In a heated battle over the role of reason, the side of irrationality won."

    Dead wrong - if it did, there would be no Sunni schools of creed called the Ashari and Maturidi - only the Athari would have survived. The Asharis are less rational than the Mutazilites, but nonetheless incorporated Hellenistic thought into their conclusions. The Maturidis are a bit more rational and have far more sway in the Indian subcontinent. The Mutazilites had their chance and were thoroughly defeated in the public debates (in fact, they are the ones that tried to force their creed down everyone's throats by use of the Abbasid state). Like people before him, he is likely piling on Imam Ghazali (ra) for all the travails of the Muslim world. Likely, he is not aware that Imam Ghazali (ra) has been vindicated by later scholarship:
    https://www.routledge.com/Inspired-Knowledge-in-Islamic-Thought-Al-Ghazalis-Theory-of-Mystical/Treiger/p/book/9780415783071

    And that Islamic scientific research was going well into the Ottoman era:
    "The truth is that the image of decline in the twelfth to fifteenth centuries is not the product of research in manuscript archives, but an assumption made in the absence of research and encouraged for its usefulness as a tool in religious polemics over the relative merits of Islam and Christianity; which religious culture wins th matural science sweepstakes?"
    "Current archival research in the history of Islamic astronomy reveals decisively that at least this specific discipline flourished well into the sixteenth century—producing a continuous flow of knowledgeable, sometimes brilliant, astronomers, scatters throughout greater Islam."
    The Beginnings of Western Science, by David Lindberg

    "First the facts. During the past half century or so, an ever-increasing body of scholarly work has shown that science in Islam not only continued after al-Ghazali but in fact flourished for centuries thereafter. "
    http://islamsci.mcgill.ca/Viewpoint_ragep.pdf

    And that his views on causality are far more in line with observations in the quantum arena where probabilities, not fixed laws, rule the day; the physical world seems fixed on the surface (the Newtonian model and the Averroes [Mutazilite] argument for 'natural law'), but the very core of existence - at the subatomic level - are a dazzling interplay of fields, forces and things blipping in and out of existence (to the observer):
    "Although more than nine centuries separate the thinking of al-Ghazali in the Seventeenth Discussion of Tahafut al-Falasifa from the work of the quantum theorists, numerous parallels can be drawn between the conclusions reached by both as to the nature of physical reality and the ability of the human mind to perceive an objective view of its structure. "
    http://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf
    http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=79931&local_base=GEN01-MCG02

    Anybody today peddling the old Ghazali/Asharis-killed science canard is seriously misinformed (possibly still doing their research in books from a few decades ago) or deliberately trying to pull a fast one.


    Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.
     
    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time - in war - where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars. The acceptance of that kind of ethnic specialization doesn't exist except in certain places; as I mentioned to Avery, Pakistan is one - being top-heavy with Punjabis. One could argue that Daesh has gained a solid understanding of it by use of Chechens and Uzbeks. I don't know if you've come across Uzbeks, but almost all the ones I have are solid human specimens; naturally broad-shouldered, lean muscle-mass, every bit the steppe warrior image.

    Peace.

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  63. Talha says:
    @Avery
    Long article, but interesting read.

    [Why Arabs Lose Wars]
    http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

    (this is about modern Arabs and modern Arab armies of course : in their time Arabs were excellent warriors).

    Hey Avery,

    Great article – thanks! And I agree:
    “A lack of cooperation is most apparent in the failure of all Arab armies to succeed at combined arms operations. A regular Jordanian army infantry company, for example, is man-for-man as good as a comparable Israeli company; at battalion level, however, the coordination required for combined arms operations, with artillery, air, and logistics support, is simply absent.”

    I have read often of Pakistani trainers (whether ground forces or air forces) complain of the inability of many of their trainees to ‘get it’. Also, the best don’t always succeed in command; sometimes it depends on who your uncle or tribe is. Many of the modern Arab armies are a joke nor are they usually put into a fight where it is actually worth losing their skin. In Pakistan, the army is dominated by Punjabis – everyone knows it, but it makes sense, they have always been better at the martial side of things, why would someone instead want to replace them with Sindhis or something – other than for SJW purposes.

    Again though, what this has to do with Sunni Islam is beyond me since Arabs are a minority of all Sunni Muslims.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Just a clarification, by trainees, I meant Arab armies; Pakistanis are often called in to train or advise Middle Eastern militaries.
    , @RadicalCenter
    Hey Talha, we don't care whether Arabs are a majority or minority of "sunni" Muslims.

    Any major variety of your pedophile-worshipping "religion" -- whether Sunni, Shia, Salafist, whatever -- is perverse, cruel, irrational (even for a religion), and contrary to human happinesss, liberty, tolerance, and wholesomeness.
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  64. Barbara says:

    “quartermaster”, it would be impossible to insult your intelligence as you have none. Putin on the other hand, was blessed with an abundance of not only intelligence but many other exemplary qualities. He’s a rare bird and Russia is lucky to have him. He truly serves the people and has been successful beyond words.

    He’s shown his mastery in Syria and the Syrians love him, and Russia. He’ s saving them and their country. Might want to turn off the boob tube you boob cause nato (north am. terrorist org.) is sitting on the border of Russia with mass weapons of mass destruction and legions of useful-idiots sent by controlled aggressive countries with nothing better to do than terrorize Russia. They’ve convinced spineless mindless Europe to give up their sovereignty and impose sanctions on their friend and neighbor cause a rotten-to-the-core country 1800 km away said so. I certainly wouldn’t want the bear for my enemy. It’s all about controlling (raping) Russia and Russia will never be controlled.

    No, the u.s. is not involved in any way in Ukraine. They only staged a bloody coup of a democratically elected government, brought in cookies and weapons of mass destruction to destroy the sane (east) half of Ukraine who can’t stand porky pig or any of the other traitors who sold out their country. And the biggest shock to you I’m sure will be to learn that quite a bit of Ukraine is Russian! But you know better and the u.s. should decide the nationality of a country 8000 km away. Quit speaking Russian you Russians!

    I call for AmerExit, the withdrawl of America from nato (north am. terror org). Get out of Ukraine, get out of Europe, get out the rest of the world. Honestly, I have no idea why any country let’s any of them into their country! Sure, come on in and destroy us and our neighbors!

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    As an American, I join your call for the US to get out of NATO and stop bombing, droning, invading, blockading, sanctioning, and threatening countries all over the world.

    But I don't think it's realistic for the US to have no bases and troops abroad. We should shut down the majority of our bases and bring most of our troops home to guard the border with Mexico and kill Mexican invaders, for sure. But we need some bases abroad to make sure we can keep the shipping lanes open and wipe out pirates and terrorists who interfere with those lanes.
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  65. Art says:

    Topping the Russian agenda is the objective to get Turkey to really close the Turkish-Syrian border and to stop financing Daesh by shutting down the illegal trade in oil.

    Why does Russia have to do this – not the US?

    The US is in a far better position to put pressure on Turkey – then Russia. Why did it not?

    Of course the answer is Israel – Israel supports the chaos of the Sunni killers in Syria.

    TRUTH – the US government fights ISIS in Iraq and supports ISIS in Syria – end of story.

    p.s. The US is on hold for the election. Obama will do nothing to hurt Hillary – the Jews will likely do an “October surprise” to help her.

    p.s. Israel will do a “December surprise” that puts pressure on the new president.

    Read More
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  66. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov
    You may start with getting acquainted with Colonel Atkine's (US Army) treatise (there are two of them):

    http://www.unc.edu/depts/diplomat/AD_Issues/amdipl_17/articles/deatkine_arabs1.html

    Which very well fits with opinions of such people as Colonel Sergievsky who served as an adviser to Syrian Armed Forces in 1973 and left a treatise with telling title "One Must Not Fight Like This". Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps--there are many issues there. But, in order for you to enlighten yourself on this issue even more, I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly's outstanding work "The Closing Of Muslim Mind", which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam's issue with cause and effect, which play a decisive role in combat training and technological development of armed forces, among many other fields.

    https://www.amazon.com/Closing-Muslim-Mind-Intellectual-Islamist/dp/1933859911

    How do you explain that Pakistan and Indonesia (Malaysia’s not bad) seem to have a fairly good (maybe not to the standards of Russia or America) grip on it?
     
    I can not say anything one way or another re: Pakistani military, other than within the framework of its conflicts with India, but I do have a copy of Malik's "Quranic Concept Of War" and I cannot find anything rational or academic, which would apply to the first rate armed force, there. Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.

    Hey Smoothie,

    Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps–there are many issues there.

    Like I mentioned to Avery, so have Pakistani trainers, you could likely console each other over a non-alcoholic get together. Again, why is this an issue with Sunnis en masse?

    I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly’s outstanding work “The Closing Of Muslim Mind”, which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam’s issue with cause and effect.

    I’ve read some of his work (articles mostly), and being fairly knowledgeable about Islam (and Muslim history) myself, I am surprised at the number of mistakes he makes (some are minor, some are major). You can link me any of his articles and I’ll point the specifics out to you. Just on the book description it says this: “In a heated battle over the role of reason, the side of irrationality won.”

    Dead wrong – if it did, there would be no Sunni schools of creed called the Ashari and Maturidi – only the Athari would have survived. The Asharis are less rational than the Mutazilites, but nonetheless incorporated Hellenistic thought into their conclusions. The Maturidis are a bit more rational and have far more sway in the Indian subcontinent. The Mutazilites had their chance and were thoroughly defeated in the public debates (in fact, they are the ones that tried to force their creed down everyone’s throats by use of the Abbasid state). Like people before him, he is likely piling on Imam Ghazali (ra) for all the travails of the Muslim world. Likely, he is not aware that Imam Ghazali (ra) has been vindicated by later scholarship:

    https://www.routledge.com/Inspired-Knowledge-in-Islamic-Thought-Al-Ghazalis-Theory-of-Mystical/Treiger/p/book/9780415783071

    And that Islamic scientific research was going well into the Ottoman era:
    “The truth is that the image of decline in the twelfth to fifteenth centuries is not the product of research in manuscript archives, but an assumption made in the absence of research and encouraged for its usefulness as a tool in religious polemics over the relative merits of Islam and Christianity; which religious culture wins th matural science sweepstakes?”
    “Current archival research in the history of Islamic astronomy reveals decisively that at least this specific discipline flourished well into the sixteenth century—producing a continuous flow of knowledgeable, sometimes brilliant, astronomers, scatters throughout greater Islam.”
    The Beginnings of Western Science, by David Lindberg

    “First the facts. During the past half century or so, an ever-increasing body of scholarly work has shown that science in Islam not only continued after al-Ghazali but in fact flourished for centuries thereafter. ”

    http://islamsci.mcgill.ca/Viewpoint_ragep.pdf

    And that his views on causality are far more in line with observations in the quantum arena where probabilities, not fixed laws, rule the day; the physical world seems fixed on the surface (the Newtonian model and the Averroes [Mutazilite] argument for ‘natural law’), but the very core of existence – at the subatomic level – are a dazzling interplay of fields, forces and things blipping in and out of existence (to the observer):
    “Although more than nine centuries separate the thinking of al-Ghazali in the Seventeenth Discussion of Tahafut al-Falasifa from the work of the quantum theorists, numerous parallels can be drawn between the conclusions reached by both as to the nature of physical reality and the ability of the human mind to perceive an objective view of its structure. ”

    http://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf

    http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=79931&local_base=GEN01-MCG02

    Anybody today peddling the old Ghazali/Asharis-killed science canard is seriously misinformed (possibly still doing their research in books from a few decades ago) or deliberately trying to pull a fast one.

    Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars. The acceptance of that kind of ethnic specialization doesn’t exist except in certain places; as I mentioned to Avery, Pakistan is one – being top-heavy with Punjabis. One could argue that Daesh has gained a solid understanding of it by use of Chechens and Uzbeks. I don’t know if you’ve come across Uzbeks, but almost all the ones I have are solid human specimens; naturally broad-shouldered, lean muscle-mass, every bit the steppe warrior image.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars.
     
    Sure there was a time, but once the first sings of industrial revolution appeared on the horizon it was all over for Muslim world. As Clausewitz reasonably states in Vom Kriege, which, unlike any Islamic treatise on warfare, remains one of the most influential (bar pop-warfare by Sun Tzu) works even today, "It is legitimate to judge the event by its outcome for it is the soundest criterion". You may hold discussions with Robert Reilly on the fate of Mutazellites and try to argue that there was a "public discussion" in regards to Al Ghazali, whatever you want but:

    1. Reilly is not alone in his opinions and wrote his treatise based on opinions and knowledge of many Sunni scholars;
    2. None other than Dr. Mahatir, former PM of Malaysia is more than explicit in his assessment of Ummah's state as "that even in the extraction of the wealth and resources that Allah has blessed the Muslims with, they are still dependent on others. "We hire other people to do everything for us," he said in a recent address. "The whole Muslim Ummah of 1.5 billion is one huge consumer society, procuring all our needs from outside our community, including our defense and security requirements. We produce practically nothing on our own, we can do almost nothing for ourselves, we cannot even manage our wealth." Mahathir said the Islamic world today is full of paradoxes and contradictions. In spite of a number of Muslim nations being extremely wealthy, there is not a single one of them that can be classified as "developed" by any criteria."

    the outcomes are very clear. While it could be argued that once in a while ago Islam provided some scientific impetus to the world (many, of course, forget Nestorian Monks translating Oriental scripts) today, that is for the last several centuries since Lepanto, Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way. The same goes for the warfare. We may discuss and criticize (often correctly) Combined West's (or, rather, North Northern Hemisphere civilizations) actions but there is no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition due to its backwardness and today its former achievements simply pale or seem puny when compared to what the rest of the world (with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa) achieved. This is in general.

    Now in warfare particulars: it is impossible to train a large mass of people to be a part of modern C4ISR if they are from some Arab village (as an example), they simply will not have a culture (culture is a behavioral matrix), that is mode of thinking, values, education and motivators which allow f.e. the kid from middle Russia village to get it right pretty fast in terms of discipline, esprit the corps' and technology. The most profound example--Saudi Arabia military. Saudis have military budget which is larger than that of Russia in absolute dollars, they also have a number of pretty sophisticated military toys. No serious military professional will call them a serious armed force. This is not because they do not have enough technology but because of the complete utter backwardness which will never allow them to be a capable combined arms warfare fighting force. It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures. While Saudis are somewhat an extreme form of failure, many other Arab and not only Sunni militaries are only marginally better. In the end, not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system, bar some small arms and cheap sub-par knock offs of some "non-Islamic" (or rather--infidel-produced) weapons. None of them have industrial and scientific capacity to do so. Even Turkish (the best among Ummah) limited in numbers systems are sub-par and are derivatives of NATO systems. This is Clausewitz' "soundest criterion"--Islam in general and modern combined arms warfare are simply incompatible on a genetic, cultural level. Some very limited in numbers and mostly "West's" prepared and trained Islam's military elites merely confirm the rule. The situation will continue to deteriorate further, but that is totally different discussion. I don't see, especially based on recent events in Syria, any improvement coming up any time soon. In the end, Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned. I would say he had his own reasons and a much better situational awareness on Islam than either you or me have, granted, of course, that I was born in Caucasus and served there and in Middle Asia, so I kind of have my suspicions of why he did so;-) Especially after visiting Maghreb. But I appreciate your input.

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  67. @Rabbitnexus
    I don't agree. The model which says everyone must be on exactly the same page, striving for one goal, one way, under one command, is not traditionally how wars and battles have been fought and won. IT is one way. It is also the US/NATO way and it clearly doesn't end up looking anything like an effective or homogeous front. The main issue is if the goals of the allies are mutually supportive and if they are capable of working in chorus to achieve the mutually agreed upon goals. Despite wanting Russian help the Shia players as such will always demand more autonomy than Sunnis for one thing and even within their own ranks what we have is not a top down authoritarian regime but a cooperative of autonomous ones. The smart money will always be on my Shia brothers in battle. Russia has every right to pick and choose where and what they do also and I am confident they will provide what Allah decrees is necessary. No more or less hopefully because whilst it is Russia's fight it remains more directly the fight of those whose lives are directly in danger and Russia has yet chosen to put some of their lives in danger on their behalf. I was very sad to see two more Russian servicemen were killed in action a couple of days ago. Two Russian helicopter pilots, may Allah grant them peace and Jannah.

    Yes, if you are a Muslim, I’m sure that your sorrow over Muslims’ murder of non-Muslim Russians is truly sincere.

    Do you think that we’re all that dangerously naive? Fuck off, worshipper of the pedopile-”prophet” (Shit Be Upon Him).

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  68. @Quartermaster
    Putin's entire approach to his foreign policy problems has been utterly incompetent. Unless, destruction of Russia is the goal, then he's on the button.

    I have no trouble with his support of Syria. The Assad regime is actually the better choice in that sad country, and actually is better for Israel.

    Putin's approach in Ukraine has been utterly stupid, and his provoking his neighbors (NATO is not provoking him) are acts of utter stupidity. He may think he's opposing the US in Ukraine, but the US is not involved there in any substantial way.

    Saker's boogieman is the US, and the US has been utterly incompetent, even worse than Putin, during Obama's regime.

    You are either a US government propagandist or a fool.

    You won’t acknowledge that US and “allied” troops conducting exercising right on Russia’s borders is provocative and belligerent. Yet somehow it’s Russia, according to you, that has been provocative or belligerent on its borders, In Ukraine.

    Would you consider it perfectly fine — not provocative or belligerent — if Russia conducted military exercises just over the Mexico-US border? Sure you would.

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  69. Talha says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Great article - thanks! And I agree:
    "A lack of cooperation is most apparent in the failure of all Arab armies to succeed at combined arms operations. A regular Jordanian army infantry company, for example, is man-for-man as good as a comparable Israeli company; at battalion level, however, the coordination required for combined arms operations, with artillery, air, and logistics support, is simply absent."

    I have read often of Pakistani trainers (whether ground forces or air forces) complain of the inability of many of their trainees to 'get it'. Also, the best don't always succeed in command; sometimes it depends on who your uncle or tribe is. Many of the modern Arab armies are a joke nor are they usually put into a fight where it is actually worth losing their skin. In Pakistan, the army is dominated by Punjabis - everyone knows it, but it makes sense, they have always been better at the martial side of things, why would someone instead want to replace them with Sindhis or something - other than for SJW purposes.

    Again though, what this has to do with Sunni Islam is beyond me since Arabs are a minority of all Sunni Muslims.

    Peace.

    Just a clarification, by trainees, I meant Arab armies; Pakistanis are often called in to train or advise Middle Eastern militaries.

    Read More
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  70. @Durruti
    In Plain Sight

    I did not expect anyone to comment on the Keynote Writer, Saker, expressing support for American Troops to openly (and unconstitutionally), invade Syria.

    " The obvious solution is to get US boots on the ground, but that is politically very difficult for Obama who has promised numerous times not to do so." Saker - alias -..........................

    Heaven forbid: that any participant should stick to the subject of appraising the Keynote (Subject) Article. And its author?

    The imperialist advocacy is in Plain Sight. No one notices? No one thinks it is important? No one cares? Agree? Disagree?

    Yes, the USA should stop arming and aiding the Islamist savages of ISIS. Yes, we should keep our troops the Hell away from Syria and Iraq.

    And yes, the USA should join with Russia in bombing ISIS and all other Islamists into oblivion wherever they surface.

    In fact, replace “Islamist” with “Muslim” and we could have a compelling basis for permanent Russia-USA military cooperation.

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  71. @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Great article - thanks! And I agree:
    "A lack of cooperation is most apparent in the failure of all Arab armies to succeed at combined arms operations. A regular Jordanian army infantry company, for example, is man-for-man as good as a comparable Israeli company; at battalion level, however, the coordination required for combined arms operations, with artillery, air, and logistics support, is simply absent."

    I have read often of Pakistani trainers (whether ground forces or air forces) complain of the inability of many of their trainees to 'get it'. Also, the best don't always succeed in command; sometimes it depends on who your uncle or tribe is. Many of the modern Arab armies are a joke nor are they usually put into a fight where it is actually worth losing their skin. In Pakistan, the army is dominated by Punjabis - everyone knows it, but it makes sense, they have always been better at the martial side of things, why would someone instead want to replace them with Sindhis or something - other than for SJW purposes.

    Again though, what this has to do with Sunni Islam is beyond me since Arabs are a minority of all Sunni Muslims.

    Peace.

    Hey Talha, we don’t care whether Arabs are a majority or minority of “sunni” Muslims.

    Any major variety of your pedophile-worshipping “religion” — whether Sunni, Shia, Salafist, whatever — is perverse, cruel, irrational (even for a religion), and contrary to human happinesss, liberty, tolerance, and wholesomeness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey RC,

    Neither do I care for your un-Christian opinion. Why don't you show your four children how their 'Christian' father conducts himself on the Internet; or do they not know you spew vile invective at people who have never done you harm and advocate for genocide on innocents simply because they espouse a different religion? I hear Daesh is hiring...

    I generally avoid you, but I'm a bit tired of you denigrating my Prophet (pbuh). So how about this; you say he was a child-rapist - I say he wasn't - are you willing to call down the curse of God on whichever one of us is lying?

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  72. @Barbara
    "quartermaster", it would be impossible to insult your intelligence as you have none. Putin on the other hand, was blessed with an abundance of not only intelligence but many other exemplary qualities. He's a rare bird and Russia is lucky to have him. He truly serves the people and has been successful beyond words.

    He's shown his mastery in Syria and the Syrians love him, and Russia. He' s saving them and their country. Might want to turn off the boob tube you boob cause nato (north am. terrorist org.) is sitting on the border of Russia with mass weapons of mass destruction and legions of useful-idiots sent by controlled aggressive countries with nothing better to do than terrorize Russia. They've convinced spineless mindless Europe to give up their sovereignty and impose sanctions on their friend and neighbor cause a rotten-to-the-core country 1800 km away said so. I certainly wouldn't want the bear for my enemy. It's all about controlling (raping) Russia and Russia will never be controlled.

    No, the u.s. is not involved in any way in Ukraine. They only staged a bloody coup of a democratically elected government, brought in cookies and weapons of mass destruction to destroy the sane (east) half of Ukraine who can't stand porky pig or any of the other traitors who sold out their country. And the biggest shock to you I'm sure will be to learn that quite a bit of Ukraine is Russian! But you know better and the u.s. should decide the nationality of a country 8000 km away. Quit speaking Russian you Russians!

    I call for AmerExit, the withdrawl of America from nato (north am. terror org). Get out of Ukraine, get out of Europe, get out the rest of the world. Honestly, I have no idea why any country let's any of them into their country! Sure, come on in and destroy us and our neighbors!

    As an American, I join your call for the US to get out of NATO and stop bombing, droning, invading, blockading, sanctioning, and threatening countries all over the world.

    But I don’t think it’s realistic for the US to have no bases and troops abroad. We should shut down the majority of our bases and bring most of our troops home to guard the border with Mexico and kill Mexican invaders, for sure. But we need some bases abroad to make sure we can keep the shipping lanes open and wipe out pirates and terrorists who interfere with those lanes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {But we need some bases abroad to make sure we can keep the shipping lanes open and wipe out pirates and terrorists who interfere with those lanes.}

    Don't be ridiculous.

    No pirates or terrorists can interfere with shipping lanes.
    US Navy is everywhere there is a shipping lane.
    And US Air Force can get there in a jiffy if need to be to carpet-bomb anything and everything that interferes with commerce.

    Last time some idiot pirates interfered with a US freighter, they got Navy Seal bullets in the head. They are swimming with the fishes, as they say.


    Overseas US bases are for no other reason than imperial hubris and to trigger conflict and friction, so MIC can use the excuse to suck up more, and more, and more scarce tax dollars.
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  73. Talha says:
    @RadicalCenter
    Hey Talha, we don't care whether Arabs are a majority or minority of "sunni" Muslims.

    Any major variety of your pedophile-worshipping "religion" -- whether Sunni, Shia, Salafist, whatever -- is perverse, cruel, irrational (even for a religion), and contrary to human happinesss, liberty, tolerance, and wholesomeness.

    Hey RC,

    Neither do I care for your un-Christian opinion. Why don’t you show your four children how their ‘Christian’ father conducts himself on the Internet; or do they not know you spew vile invective at people who have never done you harm and advocate for genocide on innocents simply because they espouse a different religion? I hear Daesh is hiring…

    I generally avoid you, but I’m a bit tired of you denigrating my Prophet (pbuh). So how about this; you say he was a child-rapist – I say he wasn’t – are you willing to call down the curse of God on whichever one of us is lying?

    Read More
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  74. Avery says:
    @RadicalCenter
    As an American, I join your call for the US to get out of NATO and stop bombing, droning, invading, blockading, sanctioning, and threatening countries all over the world.

    But I don't think it's realistic for the US to have no bases and troops abroad. We should shut down the majority of our bases and bring most of our troops home to guard the border with Mexico and kill Mexican invaders, for sure. But we need some bases abroad to make sure we can keep the shipping lanes open and wipe out pirates and terrorists who interfere with those lanes.

    {But we need some bases abroad to make sure we can keep the shipping lanes open and wipe out pirates and terrorists who interfere with those lanes.}

    Don’t be ridiculous.

    No pirates or terrorists can interfere with shipping lanes.
    US Navy is everywhere there is a shipping lane.
    And US Air Force can get there in a jiffy if need to be to carpet-bomb anything and everything that interferes with commerce.

    Last time some idiot pirates interfered with a US freighter, they got Navy Seal bullets in the head. They are swimming with the fishes, as they say.

    Overseas US bases are for no other reason than imperial hubris and to trigger conflict and friction, so MIC can use the excuse to suck up more, and more, and more scarce tax dollars.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  75. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    Well, I personally have a first hand experience with Arab officer corps–there are many issues there.
     
    Like I mentioned to Avery, so have Pakistani trainers, you could likely console each other over a non-alcoholic get together. Again, why is this an issue with Sunnis en masse?

    I cannot fail to mention Robert Reilly’s outstanding work “The Closing Of Muslim Mind”, which gives a very good insight in Sunni Islam’s issue with cause and effect.
     
    I've read some of his work (articles mostly), and being fairly knowledgeable about Islam (and Muslim history) myself, I am surprised at the number of mistakes he makes (some are minor, some are major). You can link me any of his articles and I'll point the specifics out to you. Just on the book description it says this: "In a heated battle over the role of reason, the side of irrationality won."

    Dead wrong - if it did, there would be no Sunni schools of creed called the Ashari and Maturidi - only the Athari would have survived. The Asharis are less rational than the Mutazilites, but nonetheless incorporated Hellenistic thought into their conclusions. The Maturidis are a bit more rational and have far more sway in the Indian subcontinent. The Mutazilites had their chance and were thoroughly defeated in the public debates (in fact, they are the ones that tried to force their creed down everyone's throats by use of the Abbasid state). Like people before him, he is likely piling on Imam Ghazali (ra) for all the travails of the Muslim world. Likely, he is not aware that Imam Ghazali (ra) has been vindicated by later scholarship:
    https://www.routledge.com/Inspired-Knowledge-in-Islamic-Thought-Al-Ghazalis-Theory-of-Mystical/Treiger/p/book/9780415783071

    And that Islamic scientific research was going well into the Ottoman era:
    "The truth is that the image of decline in the twelfth to fifteenth centuries is not the product of research in manuscript archives, but an assumption made in the absence of research and encouraged for its usefulness as a tool in religious polemics over the relative merits of Islam and Christianity; which religious culture wins th matural science sweepstakes?"
    "Current archival research in the history of Islamic astronomy reveals decisively that at least this specific discipline flourished well into the sixteenth century—producing a continuous flow of knowledgeable, sometimes brilliant, astronomers, scatters throughout greater Islam."
    The Beginnings of Western Science, by David Lindberg

    "First the facts. During the past half century or so, an ever-increasing body of scholarly work has shown that science in Islam not only continued after al-Ghazali but in fact flourished for centuries thereafter. "
    http://islamsci.mcgill.ca/Viewpoint_ragep.pdf

    And that his views on causality are far more in line with observations in the quantum arena where probabilities, not fixed laws, rule the day; the physical world seems fixed on the surface (the Newtonian model and the Averroes [Mutazilite] argument for 'natural law'), but the very core of existence - at the subatomic level - are a dazzling interplay of fields, forces and things blipping in and out of existence (to the observer):
    "Although more than nine centuries separate the thinking of al-Ghazali in the Seventeenth Discussion of Tahafut al-Falasifa from the work of the quantum theorists, numerous parallels can be drawn between the conclusions reached by both as to the nature of physical reality and the ability of the human mind to perceive an objective view of its structure. "
    http://www.ghazali.org/articles/harding-V10N2-Summer-93.pdf
    http://digitool.library.mcgill.ca/R/?func=dbin-jump-full&object_id=79931&local_base=GEN01-MCG02

    Anybody today peddling the old Ghazali/Asharis-killed science canard is seriously misinformed (possibly still doing their research in books from a few decades ago) or deliberately trying to pull a fast one.


    Warfare is manifestation (one of) of culture.
     
    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time - in war - where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars. The acceptance of that kind of ethnic specialization doesn't exist except in certain places; as I mentioned to Avery, Pakistan is one - being top-heavy with Punjabis. One could argue that Daesh has gained a solid understanding of it by use of Chechens and Uzbeks. I don't know if you've come across Uzbeks, but almost all the ones I have are solid human specimens; naturally broad-shouldered, lean muscle-mass, every bit the steppe warrior image.

    Peace.

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars.

    Sure there was a time, but once the first sings of industrial revolution appeared on the horizon it was all over for Muslim world. As Clausewitz reasonably states in Vom Kriege, which, unlike any Islamic treatise on warfare, remains one of the most influential (bar pop-warfare by Sun Tzu) works even today, “It is legitimate to judge the event by its outcome for it is the soundest criterion”. You may hold discussions with Robert Reilly on the fate of Mutazellites and try to argue that there was a “public discussion” in regards to Al Ghazali, whatever you want but:

    1. Reilly is not alone in his opinions and wrote his treatise based on opinions and knowledge of many Sunni scholars;
    2. None other than Dr. Mahatir, former PM of Malaysia is more than explicit in his assessment of Ummah’s state as “that even in the extraction of the wealth and resources that Allah has blessed the Muslims with, they are still dependent on others. “We hire other people to do everything for us,” he said in a recent address. “The whole Muslim Ummah of 1.5 billion is one huge consumer society, procuring all our needs from outside our community, including our defense and security requirements. We produce practically nothing on our own, we can do almost nothing for ourselves, we cannot even manage our wealth.” Mahathir said the Islamic world today is full of paradoxes and contradictions. In spite of a number of Muslim nations being extremely wealthy, there is not a single one of them that can be classified as “developed” by any criteria.”

    the outcomes are very clear. While it could be argued that once in a while ago Islam provided some scientific impetus to the world (many, of course, forget Nestorian Monks translating Oriental scripts) today, that is for the last several centuries since Lepanto, Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way. The same goes for the warfare. We may discuss and criticize (often correctly) Combined West’s (or, rather, North Northern Hemisphere civilizations) actions but there is no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition due to its backwardness and today its former achievements simply pale or seem puny when compared to what the rest of the world (with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa) achieved. This is in general.

    Now in warfare particulars: it is impossible to train a large mass of people to be a part of modern C4ISR if they are from some Arab village (as an example), they simply will not have a culture (culture is a behavioral matrix), that is mode of thinking, values, education and motivators which allow f.e. the kid from middle Russia village to get it right pretty fast in terms of discipline, esprit the corps’ and technology. The most profound example–Saudi Arabia military. Saudis have military budget which is larger than that of Russia in absolute dollars, they also have a number of pretty sophisticated military toys. No serious military professional will call them a serious armed force. This is not because they do not have enough technology but because of the complete utter backwardness which will never allow them to be a capable combined arms warfare fighting force. It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures. While Saudis are somewhat an extreme form of failure, many other Arab and not only Sunni militaries are only marginally better. In the end, not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system, bar some small arms and cheap sub-par knock offs of some “non-Islamic” (or rather–infidel-produced) weapons. None of them have industrial and scientific capacity to do so. Even Turkish (the best among Ummah) limited in numbers systems are sub-par and are derivatives of NATO systems. This is Clausewitz’ “soundest criterion”–Islam in general and modern combined arms warfare are simply incompatible on a genetic, cultural level. Some very limited in numbers and mostly “West’s” prepared and trained Islam’s military elites merely confirm the rule. The situation will continue to deteriorate further, but that is totally different discussion. I don’t see, especially based on recent events in Syria, any improvement coming up any time soon. In the end, Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned. I would say he had his own reasons and a much better situational awareness on Islam than either you or me have, granted, of course, that I was born in Caucasus and served there and in Middle Asia, so I kind of have my suspicions of why he did so;-) Especially after visiting Maghreb. But I appreciate your input.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    Reilly is not alone in his opinions
     

    No, he is not - basically all NeoCons/Israeli-Firsters agree with him.

    Clausewitz
     
    ...is king (for the time-being) - no argument there.

    Dr. Mahatir is on-point, I (and I doubt he) just don't trace this to Sunni Islamic creed - especially given its perspicacity into the quantum discoveries I referenced. I'm with you, the Muslim world has serious, serious problems.


    Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way
     
    Culture could be argued, we're holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out - the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history - please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up; we don't want to see our daughters twerking in public. Industrial yes, but once I see architecture that can rival the beauty of a Gothic cathedral or the mosques of Isfahan, or the works of profound poetry or aphorisms, I'll be a bit more impressed.

    no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition
     
    Depends on your construct of civilization - if the benchmark is material (as you posit), then definitely. There's more to it than economy and infrastructure; one may berate at the Afghan for many things, but the way a son treats his mother is a sight to behold. This is the conflict Muslims have to win (within the Ummah) - and it is not a material one.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEHF50oS-TM

    Still, nothing has hit the Muslim world that can be compared to the devastation of the Mongol invasions; they bounced back from that, God willing, they'll bounce back from this one. Don't count them out, Belloc didn't.


    It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures.
     
    Disagree - you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.

    not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system
     
    They are starting to, but you are right, as long as the lack of cooperation (among the Muslims) is there, I see no way forward on this particular front. But a better question would be why? If you've read any of William Lind's articles on 4th Generation Warfare, then you'll know that it can persuasively be argued that if defense of a land is the primary objective then a solid defense can be mounted (if you are willing to lose numbers) on a shoe-string budget (compared to modern military expenditures) and with complete loss of air-superiority - cases in point:
    US in Vietnam, US in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, Israel in Lebanon (twice), Russia in Afghanistan

    Big-budget militaries are great against other big-budget militaries. The question is, why would the Muslim world want to go that route, nobody (except the crazies) is pining for marching on Moscow or Washington - most just want a solid defense of their lands. Better MANPADS, anti-ship/anti-tank systems may be the only thing to concentrate on.


    Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned
     
    He did, history is not about to judge him kindly even after just a few decades. On the flip side, Imam Ghazali (ra) debated scholastically with his opponents and never advocated burning their books.

    No problem, and I appreciate your military knowledge.

    Peace.

    , @Talha
    Also, regarding the Saudi Air Force, I agree with you for the most part (great tools, awful pilots) - except that they are known to be able to procure Pakistani pilots on loan when necessary. You can look into this; you'll find that in the (Israeli) blogo-sphere this factoid is the one thing that causes them consternation in regards to the Saudi military.

    May God preserve you and yours.
    , @Marcus
    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding: https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/muslims-suffer-insanity-low-iq-recessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/


    During the pilot transition program with the KV-107 and C-130 with Lockheed, we found that most Saudi pilot trainees had very limited night vision, even on the brightest of moonlit nights.

    Their training retention rate was minimal including maintenance personnel. Some had dim memories and had to be constantly reminded of things that were told to them the day before. An American, British or any other western instructor is burned out pretty quick. It actually took Muslim C-130 pilots years before they could fly in the dark safely and then would be reluctant to leave the lights of a city.
     
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  76. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars.
     
    Sure there was a time, but once the first sings of industrial revolution appeared on the horizon it was all over for Muslim world. As Clausewitz reasonably states in Vom Kriege, which, unlike any Islamic treatise on warfare, remains one of the most influential (bar pop-warfare by Sun Tzu) works even today, "It is legitimate to judge the event by its outcome for it is the soundest criterion". You may hold discussions with Robert Reilly on the fate of Mutazellites and try to argue that there was a "public discussion" in regards to Al Ghazali, whatever you want but:

    1. Reilly is not alone in his opinions and wrote his treatise based on opinions and knowledge of many Sunni scholars;
    2. None other than Dr. Mahatir, former PM of Malaysia is more than explicit in his assessment of Ummah's state as "that even in the extraction of the wealth and resources that Allah has blessed the Muslims with, they are still dependent on others. "We hire other people to do everything for us," he said in a recent address. "The whole Muslim Ummah of 1.5 billion is one huge consumer society, procuring all our needs from outside our community, including our defense and security requirements. We produce practically nothing on our own, we can do almost nothing for ourselves, we cannot even manage our wealth." Mahathir said the Islamic world today is full of paradoxes and contradictions. In spite of a number of Muslim nations being extremely wealthy, there is not a single one of them that can be classified as "developed" by any criteria."

    the outcomes are very clear. While it could be argued that once in a while ago Islam provided some scientific impetus to the world (many, of course, forget Nestorian Monks translating Oriental scripts) today, that is for the last several centuries since Lepanto, Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way. The same goes for the warfare. We may discuss and criticize (often correctly) Combined West's (or, rather, North Northern Hemisphere civilizations) actions but there is no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition due to its backwardness and today its former achievements simply pale or seem puny when compared to what the rest of the world (with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa) achieved. This is in general.

    Now in warfare particulars: it is impossible to train a large mass of people to be a part of modern C4ISR if they are from some Arab village (as an example), they simply will not have a culture (culture is a behavioral matrix), that is mode of thinking, values, education and motivators which allow f.e. the kid from middle Russia village to get it right pretty fast in terms of discipline, esprit the corps' and technology. The most profound example--Saudi Arabia military. Saudis have military budget which is larger than that of Russia in absolute dollars, they also have a number of pretty sophisticated military toys. No serious military professional will call them a serious armed force. This is not because they do not have enough technology but because of the complete utter backwardness which will never allow them to be a capable combined arms warfare fighting force. It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures. While Saudis are somewhat an extreme form of failure, many other Arab and not only Sunni militaries are only marginally better. In the end, not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system, bar some small arms and cheap sub-par knock offs of some "non-Islamic" (or rather--infidel-produced) weapons. None of them have industrial and scientific capacity to do so. Even Turkish (the best among Ummah) limited in numbers systems are sub-par and are derivatives of NATO systems. This is Clausewitz' "soundest criterion"--Islam in general and modern combined arms warfare are simply incompatible on a genetic, cultural level. Some very limited in numbers and mostly "West's" prepared and trained Islam's military elites merely confirm the rule. The situation will continue to deteriorate further, but that is totally different discussion. I don't see, especially based on recent events in Syria, any improvement coming up any time soon. In the end, Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned. I would say he had his own reasons and a much better situational awareness on Islam than either you or me have, granted, of course, that I was born in Caucasus and served there and in Middle Asia, so I kind of have my suspicions of why he did so;-) Especially after visiting Maghreb. But I appreciate your input.

    Hey Smoothie,

    Reilly is not alone in his opinions

    No, he is not – basically all NeoCons/Israeli-Firsters agree with him.

    Clausewitz

    …is king (for the time-being) – no argument there.

    Dr. Mahatir is on-point, I (and I doubt he) just don’t trace this to Sunni Islamic creed – especially given its perspicacity into the quantum discoveries I referenced. I’m with you, the Muslim world has serious, serious problems.

    Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way

    Culture could be argued, we’re holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out – the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history – please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up; we don’t want to see our daughters twerking in public. Industrial yes, but once I see architecture that can rival the beauty of a Gothic cathedral or the mosques of Isfahan, or the works of profound poetry or aphorisms, I’ll be a bit more impressed.

    no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition

    Depends on your construct of civilization – if the benchmark is material (as you posit), then definitely. There’s more to it than economy and infrastructure; one may berate at the Afghan for many things, but the way a son treats his mother is a sight to behold. This is the conflict Muslims have to win (within the Ummah) – and it is not a material one.

    Still, nothing has hit the Muslim world that can be compared to the devastation of the Mongol invasions; they bounced back from that, God willing, they’ll bounce back from this one. Don’t count them out, Belloc didn’t.

    It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures.

    Disagree – you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.

    not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system

    They are starting to, but you are right, as long as the lack of cooperation (among the Muslims) is there, I see no way forward on this particular front. But a better question would be why? If you’ve read any of William Lind’s articles on 4th Generation Warfare, then you’ll know that it can persuasively be argued that if defense of a land is the primary objective then a solid defense can be mounted (if you are willing to lose numbers) on a shoe-string budget (compared to modern military expenditures) and with complete loss of air-superiority – cases in point:
    US in Vietnam, US in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, Israel in Lebanon (twice), Russia in Afghanistan

    Big-budget militaries are great against other big-budget militaries. The question is, why would the Muslim world want to go that route, nobody (except the crazies) is pining for marching on Moscow or Washington – most just want a solid defense of their lands. Better MANPADS, anti-ship/anti-tank systems may be the only thing to concentrate on.

    Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned

    He did, history is not about to judge him kindly even after just a few decades. On the flip side, Imam Ghazali (ra) debated scholastically with his opponents and never advocated burning their books.

    No problem, and I appreciate your military knowledge.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Disagree – you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.
     
    This is not a combined arms warfare we are talking about and, certainly, not within relatively new industrial technological paradigm. No Muslim state (nor combination of those) under most circumstances reaches near peer level in modern warfare. Insurgency, guerrilla warfare--that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics. Without going too deep in it--it is a separate discussion altogether.

    Culture could be argued, we’re holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out – the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history – please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up;
     
    I have to disagree here. While I agree on the issue of moral decay of the West, albeit my disagreement is very nuanced and not blanketed, there is no even a debate on the fact that combined West's (or North, Japan or Russia are part of it) material wealth, technological advancement and certain degree of liberty which is still present are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world. Muslim migration to Europe, to all those fruits of European welfare system, which is a result of very advanced economies is one of many arguments which comes to mind immediately. Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable and they are defined by an unrivaled spectrum of thinkers and artists--nothing comparable ever existed in human civilization. This is an undeniable fact.
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  77. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars.
     
    Sure there was a time, but once the first sings of industrial revolution appeared on the horizon it was all over for Muslim world. As Clausewitz reasonably states in Vom Kriege, which, unlike any Islamic treatise on warfare, remains one of the most influential (bar pop-warfare by Sun Tzu) works even today, "It is legitimate to judge the event by its outcome for it is the soundest criterion". You may hold discussions with Robert Reilly on the fate of Mutazellites and try to argue that there was a "public discussion" in regards to Al Ghazali, whatever you want but:

    1. Reilly is not alone in his opinions and wrote his treatise based on opinions and knowledge of many Sunni scholars;
    2. None other than Dr. Mahatir, former PM of Malaysia is more than explicit in his assessment of Ummah's state as "that even in the extraction of the wealth and resources that Allah has blessed the Muslims with, they are still dependent on others. "We hire other people to do everything for us," he said in a recent address. "The whole Muslim Ummah of 1.5 billion is one huge consumer society, procuring all our needs from outside our community, including our defense and security requirements. We produce practically nothing on our own, we can do almost nothing for ourselves, we cannot even manage our wealth." Mahathir said the Islamic world today is full of paradoxes and contradictions. In spite of a number of Muslim nations being extremely wealthy, there is not a single one of them that can be classified as "developed" by any criteria."

    the outcomes are very clear. While it could be argued that once in a while ago Islam provided some scientific impetus to the world (many, of course, forget Nestorian Monks translating Oriental scripts) today, that is for the last several centuries since Lepanto, Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way. The same goes for the warfare. We may discuss and criticize (often correctly) Combined West's (or, rather, North Northern Hemisphere civilizations) actions but there is no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition due to its backwardness and today its former achievements simply pale or seem puny when compared to what the rest of the world (with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa) achieved. This is in general.

    Now in warfare particulars: it is impossible to train a large mass of people to be a part of modern C4ISR if they are from some Arab village (as an example), they simply will not have a culture (culture is a behavioral matrix), that is mode of thinking, values, education and motivators which allow f.e. the kid from middle Russia village to get it right pretty fast in terms of discipline, esprit the corps' and technology. The most profound example--Saudi Arabia military. Saudis have military budget which is larger than that of Russia in absolute dollars, they also have a number of pretty sophisticated military toys. No serious military professional will call them a serious armed force. This is not because they do not have enough technology but because of the complete utter backwardness which will never allow them to be a capable combined arms warfare fighting force. It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures. While Saudis are somewhat an extreme form of failure, many other Arab and not only Sunni militaries are only marginally better. In the end, not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system, bar some small arms and cheap sub-par knock offs of some "non-Islamic" (or rather--infidel-produced) weapons. None of them have industrial and scientific capacity to do so. Even Turkish (the best among Ummah) limited in numbers systems are sub-par and are derivatives of NATO systems. This is Clausewitz' "soundest criterion"--Islam in general and modern combined arms warfare are simply incompatible on a genetic, cultural level. Some very limited in numbers and mostly "West's" prepared and trained Islam's military elites merely confirm the rule. The situation will continue to deteriorate further, but that is totally different discussion. I don't see, especially based on recent events in Syria, any improvement coming up any time soon. In the end, Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned. I would say he had his own reasons and a much better situational awareness on Islam than either you or me have, granted, of course, that I was born in Caucasus and served there and in Middle Asia, so I kind of have my suspicions of why he did so;-) Especially after visiting Maghreb. But I appreciate your input.

    Also, regarding the Saudi Air Force, I agree with you for the most part (great tools, awful pilots) – except that they are known to be able to procure Pakistani pilots on loan when necessary. You can look into this; you’ll find that in the (Israeli) blogo-sphere this factoid is the one thing that causes them consternation in regards to the Saudi military.

    May God preserve you and yours.

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  78. The Westerners should be smarter than blindly hating on Islam. Look closer at Islamic societies and listen. Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.

    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up. A Western child sits and waits to be serviced, expecting candy and ice cream on a platter, leaves for others to clean up after him. (Speaking from personal experience.)

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    • Replies: @Avery
    You should don a full burka, marry a Muslim man, join his other 3 wives, and submit like a good wife, "Latvian" woman.
    , @Talha
    Thank the Lord - another person who can see with both eyes open - with depth. If both sides can put aside their arrogance, they can see that the other side has commendable qualities that one can learn from (not everything, but somethings of value). Of course if one thinks they are perfect, well, history is full of those people from whom God made an example for others to derive lessons from.

    May God grant you and your progeny the best of the characteristics from the West and the East.
    , @Marcus
    Muslim family values (note that he tried to frame it as a "hate crime," like this whiniest group of immigrants is want to) https://www.yahoo.com/news/husband-slain-iraqi-woman-gets-26-years-life-192159670.html?ref=gs
    , @Avery
    {Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.
    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up}

    Since you are posting as [Latvian woman], I assume you are either living in Latvia, or somewhere in Europe, North America? (I live in California).

    So where have you observed these values that you can so broadly generalize and ascribe those values to the Muslim religion, and not the particular family or the nationality (ethnos)?
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  79. And Americans can’t have their cake and eat it too. If they want favors around the world, they have to offer something useful in return.

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  80. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    The Westerners should be smarter than blindly hating on Islam. Look closer at Islamic societies and listen. Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.

    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up. A Western child sits and waits to be serviced, expecting candy and ice cream on a platter, leaves for others to clean up after him. (Speaking from personal experience.)

    You should don a full burka, marry a Muslim man, join his other 3 wives, and submit like a good wife, “Latvian” woman.

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    • Agree: Marcus
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  81. Avery, you’re not being serious (and can’t do better than silly ad hominem?). A lot of people here are blind. They only see the bad in Islam, yet they simultaneously lament about “the death of the West”. I say this as a person who opposes Muslim immigration into Europe. You can criticize or look down on them as much as you want, but you can’t deny that they have group loyalty, respect for family and motherhood. They elevate it, while the West punishes it. That is a huge advantage they have.

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  82. Welcome the saker- Yes there are some things brewering in Siria. From two years ago, when EEUU start The World War against Siria, with other 57 Countrys, including Canadá and Australia. For instance , the Russians were yet, preparing their intervention, two years later
    We all are amateurs, but are the professsionals. This is a World War against Russia, by de neocons corp. S.A. And it is a lost war for the Corp., S.A. What is brewering now in Siria?Nobody knows. Dont Know Obama and his neos, Dont know Putin, Erdogan… All they are moving…The first Erdogan, the more quickly, he do not trust USA or Europe too much. USA is becoming de losser horse… brexit… Siria is the chessboard for now …

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  83. the real power of USA and partners (slaves) (Germany?) is money. financial institutions around the world slaving Countrys, Central, and world baking, IMF, the machine of making dollars of the FD. They dont need their military. USA, I think, has a great military, for the event if their finantial power bankrupt.Or in the event of a little country defies his financial power (Libia, …) The real war is economic. China as a economic power is unbatabble…..only remains the military. But as was the issue about Irán, the ultimate target, first would be smashed Siria (after irak, of course), so only will remain an isolated Irán. In the issue of China, firts must be erased Russia. EEUU can’t beat china and russia , at the same time. and not want, not can go to nuclear war. Hot open war is unavailable… will result in nuclear. ¿What options remains ? Revolutions colors, terrorism (rebels)
    sabotajes (thenuke in hing kian)… total hibrid, economic warfare, terrorism, cinetic weapons fron espace, biologic weapons, electronics diseases…Haarpp climate warfare, tsunamis hand made…Inmigration.. regugeees, homo weddings, LGTB, Feminism, Islam,negroes,multiculti, Sida, Sifilis, Tuberculosis, pederastia,Drugs, Childrens traficc, slave womans for sale.. corruption in the adinistration, economics crisis hand made, robotisation of work, substitution of task force for foreigners, raise the prices of home loging: homeless.,, bad food and water..disrupt the family, the woman hating the men,, incestus, prostitution as a legal job…
    saluti… is anyithing seemsly in your Contry now?

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  84. What Batka is saying in the above video… pretty much, I’m trying to say the same.

    p.s. And in your defense, Avery, Armenians, to0, have those values, at least, the few ones that I’ve had the pleasure to interact with in person.

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  85. @Priss Factor
    What I find amazing is Russia is still able to exert influence despite its near-economic collapse from sanctions.

    PS. Sochi was a huge mistake. Not only in wasted funds but in taking Putin's eye off the ball when the GLOB was up to no good in Ukraine.
    Now, Brazil is facing a mess with Rio Olympics. And we know Greece paid big for Athens Olympics.
    It didn't do much good for China either. The money should have been spent on environment.

    The Olympic Jinx. Must be avoided at all cost by nations with questionable economies.

    Sochi turned out to be a mistake but only due to the actions of the West. The Olympic brand is 2nd to none and is supposed to stand for peace, sportsmanship and cooperation between nations, as such it was good branding to associate with it and attempt to show the world that Russia has good intentions. In hindsight it was $50b wasted except it’s likely that more Russians will now vacation there instead of spending their money on overseas travel.

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  86. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    The Westerners should be smarter than blindly hating on Islam. Look closer at Islamic societies and listen. Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.

    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up. A Western child sits and waits to be serviced, expecting candy and ice cream on a platter, leaves for others to clean up after him. (Speaking from personal experience.)

    Thank the Lord – another person who can see with both eyes open – with depth. If both sides can put aside their arrogance, they can see that the other side has commendable qualities that one can learn from (not everything, but somethings of value). Of course if one thinks they are perfect, well, history is full of those people from whom God made an example for others to derive lessons from.

    May God grant you and your progeny the best of the characteristics from the West and the East.

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  87. avraham says:

    What Russia is doing in Syria should be praised and supported. That seems clear enough. How the different aspects of Russia and USA Technology and military strategy are not is all that relevant. There is a legitimate government in Syria.

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  88. I would agree that with the Saker that “humoring” the US should be attempted.

    The forces opposing the Assad loyalists are effectively a loose, and often opportunistic, coalition of Nusra, Al-Sham, various local militias (a number of which call them selves FSA to gain agency and western backing) and of course ISIS. There is infighting within them, and such infighting is often useful for the loyalist/R+6 effort.

    In many situations, the “FSA” has to do what Nusra tells them or face deadly consequences. The FSA does very useful things for Nusra, and creating major infighting between Nusra and the FSA could have highly beneficial operational implications.

    I am of course an armchair strategist, but fundamentally it seems to be a trade off between humoring the USA on one side (with some restrictions for targeting etc. given that situational awareness of Syria on the US side seems to be low, and that they may not even know where “their” assets actually are, I would argue that the Russian air force will have plenty of things to bomb even if they adhere to US restrictions.), and driving hopefully multiple wedges in the hostile coalition.

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  89. avraham says:

    Al Gahazi had some good points but I think that the anti rationalist approach was not very fruitful.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey avraham,

    Imam Ghazali (ra) was not perfect, but I think saying he was 'anti rationalist' is, perhaps, obfuscating things. He (and by extension, the Ash'aris as well as Maturidis) did not reject rationalism; it is more accurate to say they defined the upper boundaries of rationalism in the discourse:
    "Al-Ghazâlî understood the importance of falsafa and developed a complex response that rejected and condemned some of its teachings, while it also allowed him to accept and apply others."
    "Al-Ghazâlî's approach to resolving apparent contradictions between reason and revelation was accepted by almost all later Muslim theologians and had, via the works of Averroes (Ibn Rushd, 1126–98) and Jewish authors a significant influence on Latin medieval thinking."
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/al-ghazali/

    They also defined the upper boundaries of literalism in the interpretation of revelation, but they are not given enough credit for that.

    I guess one can debate the 'fruitfulness' of their efforts. The Mutazilites did not contribute much to the religious sciences (certain works like Imam Zamakhshari's excellent exegesis being an exception), but the one spot that they had almost zero influence was the spiritual side; they contributed nothing to Sufism, not even one work of mystic/gnostic poetry I can think of - that to me speaks volumes about which side won the debates and why - "...by their fruits ye shall know them..."

    Peace.
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  90. Talha says:
    @avraham
    Al Gahazi had some good points but I think that the anti rationalist approach was not very fruitful.

    Hey avraham,

    Imam Ghazali (ra) was not perfect, but I think saying he was ‘anti rationalist’ is, perhaps, obfuscating things. He (and by extension, the Ash’aris as well as Maturidis) did not reject rationalism; it is more accurate to say they defined the upper boundaries of rationalism in the discourse:
    “Al-Ghazâlî understood the importance of falsafa and developed a complex response that rejected and condemned some of its teachings, while it also allowed him to accept and apply others.”
    “Al-Ghazâlî’s approach to resolving apparent contradictions between reason and revelation was accepted by almost all later Muslim theologians and had, via the works of Averroes (Ibn Rushd, 1126–98) and Jewish authors a significant influence on Latin medieval thinking.”

    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/al-ghazali/

    They also defined the upper boundaries of literalism in the interpretation of revelation, but they are not given enough credit for that.

    I guess one can debate the ‘fruitfulness’ of their efforts. The Mutazilites did not contribute much to the religious sciences (certain works like Imam Zamakhshari’s excellent exegesis being an exception), but the one spot that they had almost zero influence was the spiritual side; they contributed nothing to Sufism, not even one work of mystic/gnostic poetry I can think of – that to me speaks volumes about which side won the debates and why – “…by their fruits ye shall know them…”

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @avraham
    Thank you for you reply. I guess I need to learn more about Al Ghazali.
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  91. avraham says:
    @Talha
    Hey avraham,

    Imam Ghazali (ra) was not perfect, but I think saying he was 'anti rationalist' is, perhaps, obfuscating things. He (and by extension, the Ash'aris as well as Maturidis) did not reject rationalism; it is more accurate to say they defined the upper boundaries of rationalism in the discourse:
    "Al-Ghazâlî understood the importance of falsafa and developed a complex response that rejected and condemned some of its teachings, while it also allowed him to accept and apply others."
    "Al-Ghazâlî's approach to resolving apparent contradictions between reason and revelation was accepted by almost all later Muslim theologians and had, via the works of Averroes (Ibn Rushd, 1126–98) and Jewish authors a significant influence on Latin medieval thinking."
    http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/al-ghazali/

    They also defined the upper boundaries of literalism in the interpretation of revelation, but they are not given enough credit for that.

    I guess one can debate the 'fruitfulness' of their efforts. The Mutazilites did not contribute much to the religious sciences (certain works like Imam Zamakhshari's excellent exegesis being an exception), but the one spot that they had almost zero influence was the spiritual side; they contributed nothing to Sufism, not even one work of mystic/gnostic poetry I can think of - that to me speaks volumes about which side won the debates and why - "...by their fruits ye shall know them..."

    Peace.

    Thank you for you reply. I guess I need to learn more about Al Ghazali.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    No need for thanks - we all have our special niches of knowledge (this just happens to be what I am familiar with) - I'm sure you can show me up on a lot of subjects! Case in point; I'm learning a bunch from my engagement with Smoothie who has first hand knowledge of a lot of military matters, especially from the non-Nato side of things.

    May God preserve you and yours!
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  92. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    Reilly is not alone in his opinions
     

    No, he is not - basically all NeoCons/Israeli-Firsters agree with him.

    Clausewitz
     
    ...is king (for the time-being) - no argument there.

    Dr. Mahatir is on-point, I (and I doubt he) just don't trace this to Sunni Islamic creed - especially given its perspicacity into the quantum discoveries I referenced. I'm with you, the Muslim world has serious, serious problems.


    Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way
     
    Culture could be argued, we're holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out - the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history - please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up; we don't want to see our daughters twerking in public. Industrial yes, but once I see architecture that can rival the beauty of a Gothic cathedral or the mosques of Isfahan, or the works of profound poetry or aphorisms, I'll be a bit more impressed.

    no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition
     
    Depends on your construct of civilization - if the benchmark is material (as you posit), then definitely. There's more to it than economy and infrastructure; one may berate at the Afghan for many things, but the way a son treats his mother is a sight to behold. This is the conflict Muslims have to win (within the Ummah) - and it is not a material one.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEHF50oS-TM

    Still, nothing has hit the Muslim world that can be compared to the devastation of the Mongol invasions; they bounced back from that, God willing, they'll bounce back from this one. Don't count them out, Belloc didn't.


    It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures.
     
    Disagree - you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.

    not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system
     
    They are starting to, but you are right, as long as the lack of cooperation (among the Muslims) is there, I see no way forward on this particular front. But a better question would be why? If you've read any of William Lind's articles on 4th Generation Warfare, then you'll know that it can persuasively be argued that if defense of a land is the primary objective then a solid defense can be mounted (if you are willing to lose numbers) on a shoe-string budget (compared to modern military expenditures) and with complete loss of air-superiority - cases in point:
    US in Vietnam, US in Afghanistan, US in Iraq, Israel in Lebanon (twice), Russia in Afghanistan

    Big-budget militaries are great against other big-budget militaries. The question is, why would the Muslim world want to go that route, nobody (except the crazies) is pining for marching on Moscow or Washington - most just want a solid defense of their lands. Better MANPADS, anti-ship/anti-tank systems may be the only thing to concentrate on.


    Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned
     
    He did, history is not about to judge him kindly even after just a few decades. On the flip side, Imam Ghazali (ra) debated scholastically with his opponents and never advocated burning their books.

    No problem, and I appreciate your military knowledge.

    Peace.

    Disagree – you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.

    This is not a combined arms warfare we are talking about and, certainly, not within relatively new industrial technological paradigm. No Muslim state (nor combination of those) under most circumstances reaches near peer level in modern warfare. Insurgency, guerrilla warfare–that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics. Without going too deep in it–it is a separate discussion altogether.

    Culture could be argued, we’re holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out – the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history – please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up;

    I have to disagree here. While I agree on the issue of moral decay of the West, albeit my disagreement is very nuanced and not blanketed, there is no even a debate on the fact that combined West’s (or North, Japan or Russia are part of it) material wealth, technological advancement and certain degree of liberty which is still present are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world. Muslim migration to Europe, to all those fruits of European welfare system, which is a result of very advanced economies is one of many arguments which comes to mind immediately. Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable and they are defined by an unrivaled spectrum of thinkers and artists–nothing comparable ever existed in human civilization. This is an undeniable fact.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    No Muslim state ... reaches near peer level in modern warfare.
     
    Quite so - maybe they should give up trying to compete in this regard. Playing soccer well does not translate into playing ice-hockey well.

    Insurgency, guerrilla warfare–that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics.
     
    Exactly - my contention, the Muslims have been at this since the 1800's and gotten quite good at this. Stick to what you know and perfect it - it is defensive and (generally) has the moral high ground - again, see William Lind - he contends (in 4th Generation War) when Goliath beats David, it is still no victory. Think about this, the Taliban (for all their horrible policies) are poised to take over Afghanistan (they pretty much own it - we're talking officially) after 15 years, and they did this being horrible shots and being near-sighted and using barely working fire-arms and corroding ammunition:
    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/afghan-marksmen-forget-the-fables/
    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/?_r=0
    (Look at that rifle - it may be a WW1 firearm!)

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) - people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.

    are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world
     

    Sure - and envy is a spiritual disease - there is no success in this. I believe Mawlana Rumi (ra) put it best; the material world is the vast sea upon which one crosses the ship of one's soul to the final harbor,undoubtedly the water is necessary for the journey, but if one brings it onto the ship - it shall flounder. Muslims have forgotten that material is the means, not the ends - and God reserves the right to humiliate and teach His servants at the hands of others of His servants until they remember.

    Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable
     
    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard - wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji's anti-colonial efforts:
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/362139?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    That was a different age though, those values were bound to produce a great society (Anglo-Saxon sense of justice, etc.). We are not talking then, we are talking now - any great thinkers or artists? Not that the Muslim world is producing them either - like I said, we are just keeping our heads above water - I have no clue what is keeping us afloat except the efforts and prayers of the previous generations.


    This is an undeniable fact.
     
    It is opinion, but nonetheless, they did indeed establish a wonderful society (of which I am a beneficiary), if it can only be preserved.

    May God preserve you and yours.

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  93. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Disagree – you rightly pointed out issues that are inherent with tribes, then project that assumption as a value across the Muslim world. Many Muslim societies are not tribal. Our contention is that it is due to the lack of Islamic ethos and the triumph of tribalism/nationalism uber-alles. The Sufi Orders of the past were able to effectively mount decades-long defenses against massively better trained and armed European powers precisely because of their ability to transcend tribes.
     
    This is not a combined arms warfare we are talking about and, certainly, not within relatively new industrial technological paradigm. No Muslim state (nor combination of those) under most circumstances reaches near peer level in modern warfare. Insurgency, guerrilla warfare--that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics. Without going too deep in it--it is a separate discussion altogether.

    Culture could be argued, we’re holding our own against a materialistic creed that is killing its people from the inside out – the population decline in the most advanced countries (not due to disease, war, famine, etc.) simply choice is unprecedented in human history – please pardon the Muslims from being gung-ho about signing up;
     
    I have to disagree here. While I agree on the issue of moral decay of the West, albeit my disagreement is very nuanced and not blanketed, there is no even a debate on the fact that combined West's (or North, Japan or Russia are part of it) material wealth, technological advancement and certain degree of liberty which is still present are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world. Muslim migration to Europe, to all those fruits of European welfare system, which is a result of very advanced economies is one of many arguments which comes to mind immediately. Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable and they are defined by an unrivaled spectrum of thinkers and artists--nothing comparable ever existed in human civilization. This is an undeniable fact.

    Hey Smoothie,

    No Muslim state … reaches near peer level in modern warfare.

    Quite so – maybe they should give up trying to compete in this regard. Playing soccer well does not translate into playing ice-hockey well.

    Insurgency, guerrilla warfare–that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics.

    Exactly – my contention, the Muslims have been at this since the 1800′s and gotten quite good at this. Stick to what you know and perfect it – it is defensive and (generally) has the moral high ground – again, see William Lind – he contends (in 4th Generation War) when Goliath beats David, it is still no victory. Think about this, the Taliban (for all their horrible policies) are poised to take over Afghanistan (they pretty much own it – we’re talking officially) after 15 years, and they did this being horrible shots and being near-sighted and using barely working fire-arms and corroding ammunition:

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/afghan-marksmen-forget-the-fables/

    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/?_r=0

    (Look at that rifle – it may be a WW1 firearm!)

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) – people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.

    are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world

    Sure – and envy is a spiritual disease – there is no success in this. I believe Mawlana Rumi (ra) put it best; the material world is the vast sea upon which one crosses the ship of one’s soul to the final harbor,undoubtedly the water is necessary for the journey, but if one brings it onto the ship – it shall flounder. Muslims have forgotten that material is the means, not the ends – and God reserves the right to humiliate and teach His servants at the hands of others of His servants until they remember.

    Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable

    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard – wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji’s anti-colonial efforts:

    https://www.jstor.org/stable/362139?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    That was a different age though, those values were bound to produce a great society (Anglo-Saxon sense of justice, etc.). We are not talking then, we are talking now – any great thinkers or artists? Not that the Muslim world is producing them either – like I said, we are just keeping our heads above water – I have no clue what is keeping us afloat except the efforts and prayers of the previous generations.

    This is an undeniable fact.

    It is opinion, but nonetheless, they did indeed establish a wonderful society (of which I am a beneficiary), if it can only be preserved.

    May God preserve you and yours.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard – wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji’s anti-colonial efforts:
     
    OK, let's clear this out right here. It is a wonderful fact that you delve into West's massive philosophical heritage--it characterizes you very highly as a man with good intelligence. But let's not go overboard here--Ummah in general, and this is the fact basically supported by Ummah itself, especially Arab part, barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world, being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa. It all does not mean that some white trailer trash from mid-town USA or some Russian bum from Novosibirsk go around constantly quoting John Locke or Leo Tolstoy, but these are societies in general which incorporate through political system, law practices, general culture, educational level etc. many of those crucial principles which you may find on your book shelves. This is not the case in Ummah. This all is akin to clock, the gears which work in them. Let's put it this way, Sharia--and there is NO Islam without Sharia, even with all noble efforts by people of Abdurrahman Wahid scale who tried to marry Islam and modernity--and Western culture are simply incompatible, period. It is not a theorem, it is an axiom. One of those factors (a major one) which makes it totally counter to each-other is West's attitude to women--yes, I read Sayyid Qutb's Milestones, it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam. In our culture women are equal to men, granted that often this is taken way down the rabbit hole by some feminist nutjobs.

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) – people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.
     
    Not only I can imagine it, but I have some opinion on that which not necessarily coincides with yours. But you do have some rational point here, albeit it is still debatable.
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  94. Talha says:
    @avraham
    Thank you for you reply. I guess I need to learn more about Al Ghazali.

    No need for thanks – we all have our special niches of knowledge (this just happens to be what I am familiar with) – I’m sure you can show me up on a lot of subjects! Case in point; I’m learning a bunch from my engagement with Smoothie who has first hand knowledge of a lot of military matters, especially from the non-Nato side of things.

    May God preserve you and yours!

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    • Replies: @avraham
    Thank you anyway. I am happy to learn that Ghazali was a deeper thinker than I had realized. And thank you for your blessing. May God bless you and your family. P.S. I am also amazed at the knowledge of Smoothie about military matters. It is very instructive to hear what he has to say about these areas.
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  95. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    The Westerners should be smarter than blindly hating on Islam. Look closer at Islamic societies and listen. Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.

    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up. A Western child sits and waits to be serviced, expecting candy and ice cream on a platter, leaves for others to clean up after him. (Speaking from personal experience.)

    Muslim family values (note that he tried to frame it as a “hate crime,” like this whiniest group of immigrants is want to) https://www.yahoo.com/news/husband-slain-iraqi-woman-gets-26-years-life-192159670.html?ref=gs

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    • Replies: @Avery
    Question to [Latvian woman]:

    Is this a "Muslim family values" thing or just peculiar to Afghanistan?

    [The secret shame of Afghanistan's bacha bazi 'dancing boys' who are made to dress like little girls, then abused by paedophiles]
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3384027/Women-children-boys-pleasure-secret-shame-Afghanistan-s-bacha-bazi-dancing-boys-dress-like-little-girls-make-skirts-abused-paedophiles.html

    What about this:

    [I would do it again 100 times': Muslim father 'murdered his THREE daughters in honour killing for dating wrong boys]
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061842/Mohammad-Shafia-murdered-daughter-honour-killing-said-hed-again.html
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  96. Marcus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Agreed, which is why the Muslim world did much better before its breakup. There was a time – in war – where the Muslim world put its best foot forward; for instance using Seljuks, Mamelukes, etc. as the core of the military strength (even the battle for supremacy over Persian Iran by dynasties like the Qajars was mostly them rallying Turkic tribes to their side). Think the use of Cossacks by the Tsars.
     
    Sure there was a time, but once the first sings of industrial revolution appeared on the horizon it was all over for Muslim world. As Clausewitz reasonably states in Vom Kriege, which, unlike any Islamic treatise on warfare, remains one of the most influential (bar pop-warfare by Sun Tzu) works even today, "It is legitimate to judge the event by its outcome for it is the soundest criterion". You may hold discussions with Robert Reilly on the fate of Mutazellites and try to argue that there was a "public discussion" in regards to Al Ghazali, whatever you want but:

    1. Reilly is not alone in his opinions and wrote his treatise based on opinions and knowledge of many Sunni scholars;
    2. None other than Dr. Mahatir, former PM of Malaysia is more than explicit in his assessment of Ummah's state as "that even in the extraction of the wealth and resources that Allah has blessed the Muslims with, they are still dependent on others. "We hire other people to do everything for us," he said in a recent address. "The whole Muslim Ummah of 1.5 billion is one huge consumer society, procuring all our needs from outside our community, including our defense and security requirements. We produce practically nothing on our own, we can do almost nothing for ourselves, we cannot even manage our wealth." Mahathir said the Islamic world today is full of paradoxes and contradictions. In spite of a number of Muslim nations being extremely wealthy, there is not a single one of them that can be classified as "developed" by any criteria."

    the outcomes are very clear. While it could be argued that once in a while ago Islam provided some scientific impetus to the world (many, of course, forget Nestorian Monks translating Oriental scripts) today, that is for the last several centuries since Lepanto, Islam is simply not a player in any meaningful economic, industrial, scientific, human development and cultural way. The same goes for the warfare. We may discuss and criticize (often correctly) Combined West's (or, rather, North Northern Hemisphere civilizations) actions but there is no denial that Islam de facto lost civilizational competition due to its backwardness and today its former achievements simply pale or seem puny when compared to what the rest of the world (with the exception of sub-Saharan Africa) achieved. This is in general.

    Now in warfare particulars: it is impossible to train a large mass of people to be a part of modern C4ISR if they are from some Arab village (as an example), they simply will not have a culture (culture is a behavioral matrix), that is mode of thinking, values, education and motivators which allow f.e. the kid from middle Russia village to get it right pretty fast in terms of discipline, esprit the corps' and technology. The most profound example--Saudi Arabia military. Saudis have military budget which is larger than that of Russia in absolute dollars, they also have a number of pretty sophisticated military toys. No serious military professional will call them a serious armed force. This is not because they do not have enough technology but because of the complete utter backwardness which will never allow them to be a capable combined arms warfare fighting force. It is impossible because of Islam, values it instills and nurtures. While Saudis are somewhat an extreme form of failure, many other Arab and not only Sunni militaries are only marginally better. In the end, not a single Muslim nation can produce on its own serious weapon system, bar some small arms and cheap sub-par knock offs of some "non-Islamic" (or rather--infidel-produced) weapons. None of them have industrial and scientific capacity to do so. Even Turkish (the best among Ummah) limited in numbers systems are sub-par and are derivatives of NATO systems. This is Clausewitz' "soundest criterion"--Islam in general and modern combined arms warfare are simply incompatible on a genetic, cultural level. Some very limited in numbers and mostly "West's" prepared and trained Islam's military elites merely confirm the rule. The situation will continue to deteriorate further, but that is totally different discussion. I don't see, especially based on recent events in Syria, any improvement coming up any time soon. In the end, Ataturk ordered all Al-Ghazali books to be taken out of libraries and burned. I would say he had his own reasons and a much better situational awareness on Islam than either you or me have, granted, of course, that I was born in Caucasus and served there and in Middle Asia, so I kind of have my suspicions of why he did so;-) Especially after visiting Maghreb. But I appreciate your input.

    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding: https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/muslims-suffer-insanity-low-iq-recessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/

    During the pilot transition program with the KV-107 and C-130 with Lockheed, we found that most Saudi pilot trainees had very limited night vision, even on the brightest of moonlit nights.

    Their training retention rate was minimal including maintenance personnel. Some had dim memories and had to be constantly reminded of things that were told to them the day before. An American, British or any other western instructor is burned out pretty quick. It actually took Muslim C-130 pilots years before they could fly in the dark safely and then would be reluctant to leave the lights of a city.

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    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding:
     
    True. But that is the factor which often gets omitted for a PC reasons. In general, while not without own share of exceptions, the opinion of professionals on say Arab officer corps was never very high for a reason, among many, of low retention which becomes a major impediment when making complex tactical and operational decisions, and operating complex technology.
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  97. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    The Westerners should be smarter than blindly hating on Islam. Look closer at Islamic societies and listen. Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.

    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up. A Western child sits and waits to be serviced, expecting candy and ice cream on a platter, leaves for others to clean up after him. (Speaking from personal experience.)

    {Observe what values they have. Very different from the Western ones.
    A Muslim child walks up to a dinner table, helping serve the guests and helps clean up}

    Since you are posting as [Latvian woman], I assume you are either living in Latvia, or somewhere in Europe, North America? (I live in California).

    So where have you observed these values that you can so broadly generalize and ascribe those values to the Muslim religion, and not the particular family or the nationality (ethnos)?

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  98. Avery says:
    @Marcus
    Muslim family values (note that he tried to frame it as a "hate crime," like this whiniest group of immigrants is want to) https://www.yahoo.com/news/husband-slain-iraqi-woman-gets-26-years-life-192159670.html?ref=gs

    Question to [Latvian woman]:

    Is this a “Muslim family values” thing or just peculiar to Afghanistan?

    [The secret shame of Afghanistan's bacha bazi 'dancing boys' who are made to dress like little girls, then abused by paedophiles]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3384027/Women-children-boys-pleasure-secret-shame-Afghanistan-s-bacha-bazi-dancing-boys-dress-like-little-girls-make-skirts-abused-paedophiles.html

    What about this:

    [I would do it again 100 times': Muslim father 'murdered his THREE daughters in honour killing for dating wrong boys]

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061842/Mohammad-Shafia-murdered-daughter-honour-killing-said-hed-again.html

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    We need a more patriarchal and masculine society, but there's no way white men will adopt the subjugation of women practiced by most Muslim societies (and a variety of other Asian and African ones): it's simply repellent to us. Indo-Aryan peoples developed notions like chivalry and generally accorded a high status to women, whereas most Semitic and Mongoloid peoples viewed women as a necessary evil (at best).
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  99. Marcus says:
    @Avery
    Question to [Latvian woman]:

    Is this a "Muslim family values" thing or just peculiar to Afghanistan?

    [The secret shame of Afghanistan's bacha bazi 'dancing boys' who are made to dress like little girls, then abused by paedophiles]
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3384027/Women-children-boys-pleasure-secret-shame-Afghanistan-s-bacha-bazi-dancing-boys-dress-like-little-girls-make-skirts-abused-paedophiles.html

    What about this:

    [I would do it again 100 times': Muslim father 'murdered his THREE daughters in honour killing for dating wrong boys]
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2061842/Mohammad-Shafia-murdered-daughter-honour-killing-said-hed-again.html

    We need a more patriarchal and masculine society, but there’s no way white men will adopt the subjugation of women practiced by most Muslim societies (and a variety of other Asian and African ones): it’s simply repellent to us. Indo-Aryan peoples developed notions like chivalry and generally accorded a high status to women, whereas most Semitic and Mongoloid peoples viewed women as a necessary evil (at best).

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  100. Avery,

    From a couple of people that I’ve met and from social media (such as vkontakte and odnoklassniki).

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  101. Respect from son to his mother is a very big deal from what I noticed. Respect for motherhood in general. Occasionally, respect for a young woman’s chastity. Status given to the elderly (it is amusing how some of the users of those social media sites actually assign a higher age to themselves, e.g., a 20 something person would state their age as 73 or 96, signalling the status that the elderly have). Respect for the disabled. Patience, obligation. Intergenerational harmony – something that we’ll probably never have again in the West, given how rich the older generation has gotten at the expense of the young.

    The example I gave of the Muslim boy serving the table is from visiting a Muslim community in Latvia a few years ago. They were Tatars, I think.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I'm with you on this one - the Muslims of Central Asia are top-notch at filial piety. It is one thing to see a grown man press his mother's feet, it is totally another to see two grown sons vying to do the same for their mother or their elders or in fetching their slippers. My family, from Pakistani background, had the pleasure of hosting a foreign exchange student from Uzbekistan for a year - he put me and my brother to shame in how well he treated my parents. My mother will never let me forget it too - ;)

    But I believe Asian societies (in general) express this sentiment also.

    Peace.
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  102. No, Marcus, what is repellent to you (many Western males, not ALL, but plenty enough) is to have a wife who is a full time housewife because that means you can’t get all the goodies that our material world offers. Oh, and that housewife wouldn’t have a decent pension either and would be rewarded with poverty in old age for choosing to be a full time mom. Something that to the Muslims would be scandalous. Be careful, Marcus, about calling for more patriarchy – too many women might want to sign up and too many white guys might be opposed.

    Avery, I’m not talking about actually living with the Muslims (and, btw, as you know, that is way too broad of a term – there are hundreds of different types of Muslim societies), you definitely would’ve had a much closer insight into that had you (or your (grand) parents) stayed in the Caucasus). I’m not even talking about the “crazy” things some of them do once in a while. I’m talking about the values they elevate. And maybe certain lifestyles. Just to repeat – I oppose ANY non-European immigration and have for many years (and support keeping away from each other’s business). But that has nothing to do with the basis of civilization / values / ethics.

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    • Replies: @Marcus

    No, Marcus, what is repellent to you (many Western males, not ALL, but plenty enough) is to have a wife who is a full time housewife because that means you can’t get all the goodies that our material world offers. Oh, and that housewife wouldn’t have a decent pension either and would be rewarded with poverty in old age for choosing to be a full time mom. Something that to the Muslims would be scandalous.
     
    I'd be fine with that, it's the feminists who pushed for women to put careers first, leading to the current dog eat dog situation for both sexes.

    e careful, Marcus, about calling for more patriarchy – too many women might want to sign up and too many white guys might be opposed.
     
    You're right about that, most men are clueless as to what the average woman wants due to feminist indoctrination. It was men that instituted Indo-Aryan traditions that gave elevated status to women, most women would accept even a brutal, Asiatic patriarchy.
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  103. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    Respect from son to his mother is a very big deal from what I noticed. Respect for motherhood in general. Occasionally, respect for a young woman's chastity. Status given to the elderly (it is amusing how some of the users of those social media sites actually assign a higher age to themselves, e.g., a 20 something person would state their age as 73 or 96, signalling the status that the elderly have). Respect for the disabled. Patience, obligation. Intergenerational harmony - something that we'll probably never have again in the West, given how rich the older generation has gotten at the expense of the young.

    The example I gave of the Muslim boy serving the table is from visiting a Muslim community in Latvia a few years ago. They were Tatars, I think.

    I’m with you on this one – the Muslims of Central Asia are top-notch at filial piety. It is one thing to see a grown man press his mother’s feet, it is totally another to see two grown sons vying to do the same for their mother or their elders or in fetching their slippers. My family, from Pakistani background, had the pleasure of hosting a foreign exchange student from Uzbekistan for a year – he put me and my brother to shame in how well he treated my parents. My mother will never let me forget it too – ;)

    But I believe Asian societies (in general) express this sentiment also.

    Peace.

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  104. L.K says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    VVP would be very foolish to trust them.
     
    VVP does not operate in a vacuum and is not omnipotent. He is in the focus of struggle of several major and influential power groups and it takes toll. There is an internal dynamics here of which we may only speculate. As per "Syrians fvcked"--I don't think so. Main objective was already achieved--Assad government is stabilized. Contradictions between Russia and Iran were absolutely expected and were inevitable, they will continue to manifest themselves. Moreover, Russian involvement and dramatic results it achieved by completely changing war's dynamics didn't sit well with many both in SAA and Iran. It is well known and documented fact that many among SAA's top brass and Iran-linked forces literally wanted Russia to fight their war for them. I am not surprised with it at all.

    smoothie: “It is well known and documented fact that many among SAA’s top brass and Iran-linked forces literally wanted Russia to fight their war for them.”

    Pure BS. But then again, you are a russian propagandist.

    The fighting on the ground has been done almost exclusively by SAA/NDF, Syrian militias, IRGC backed/supported/led militias and Hezbollah. More than 200 Iranians, mostly officers, have been kia in Syria.

    What Syria and Iran did NOT want was for the Russians to pull the plug on their offensive, right in the middle of very successful operations in Aleppo province.
    Momentum was there, the jihadists were in disarray, suffering defeat after defeat, morale was lower than ever, cauldrons were forming, perhaps collapse for the militants in Aleppo was at hand.

    Instead, Russia decided to “talk to our american partners”, and worked with the fu*king zamerican fiends to come up with an idiotic “cessation of hostilities” and halt the offensive.
    It was OBVIOUS that ZUSA and the other local fiends were gonna use the ‘cease fire’ to just recruit new jihadists, train them, re-arm, redeploy, etc.
    That is exactly what happened; The islamic militants retook the initiative, reversed some hard earned government gains in South Aleppo, massacred civilians in Aleppo city by shelling residential areas indiscriminately, all while the russians played their silly games with the americans who, in turn, shielded al-ciada(nusra) & co(which includes several fake syrian army units).
    Even the US Colonel, Pat Lang, was frustrated by this course of action.
    Of course the blood spilled was almost all non-russian, so no problem.

    It seems that at last the russians have become tired of this nonsense and are again supporting government forces with CAS in the critical theater of Aleppo.
    We’ll see.

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  105. Avery says:

    Latvian woman:

    Thanks for the background information.
    I still do not see how you can extrapolate and ascribe the qualities you ascribe to Muslims based on your very limited personal experience with Muslims, but I guess you see something there that I don’t.

    We have to agree to disagree on that then.
    It was an illuminating exchange nevertheless.

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  106. avraham says:
    @Talha
    No need for thanks - we all have our special niches of knowledge (this just happens to be what I am familiar with) - I'm sure you can show me up on a lot of subjects! Case in point; I'm learning a bunch from my engagement with Smoothie who has first hand knowledge of a lot of military matters, especially from the non-Nato side of things.

    May God preserve you and yours!

    Thank you anyway. I am happy to learn that Ghazali was a deeper thinker than I had realized. And thank you for your blessing. May God bless you and your family. P.S. I am also amazed at the knowledge of Smoothie about military matters. It is very instructive to hear what he has to say about these areas.

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  107. Talha, there must be some solidarity there with the older generations helping the young as well when they need it.

    And regarding what you said above, I would like to ask you to not stop praying for the Vainakh people after all since some of them are in Syria, too, right now. Some of them are desperate, left with no good allies, there is pain and their youth need to find their way back home.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear LW,

    Yes, I agree about the inter-generational assistance. One thing that constantly comes to mind is that a lot of things in the West are done (privately and publicly) through massive debt-financing. It is literally placing financial burden on the shoulders of those who never had a say in the matter - this has spiritual ramifications.

    This is the first I have heard of those people, but I will indeed pray for them, and hope that both you and I find ourselves in the their prayers (in a positive way because their voices are special)...
    “Beware the supplication of the oppressed, even if he is an unbeliever, for there is no veil between it and God.” – reported in Musnad Ahmad

    I hope that whatever Muslim community is already in your area (I totally understand the sentiment for not allowing any more) behaves with the best character to their host people.

    Peace.
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  108. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    No Muslim state ... reaches near peer level in modern warfare.
     
    Quite so - maybe they should give up trying to compete in this regard. Playing soccer well does not translate into playing ice-hockey well.

    Insurgency, guerrilla warfare–that is a different set of circumstances and a very different dynamics.
     
    Exactly - my contention, the Muslims have been at this since the 1800's and gotten quite good at this. Stick to what you know and perfect it - it is defensive and (generally) has the moral high ground - again, see William Lind - he contends (in 4th Generation War) when Goliath beats David, it is still no victory. Think about this, the Taliban (for all their horrible policies) are poised to take over Afghanistan (they pretty much own it - we're talking officially) after 15 years, and they did this being horrible shots and being near-sighted and using barely working fire-arms and corroding ammunition:
    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/26/afghan-marksmen-forget-the-fables/
    http://atwar.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/02/the-weakness-of-taliban-marksmanship/?_r=0
    (Look at that rifle - it may be a WW1 firearm!)

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) - people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.

    are points of envy and distress for very many in Muslim world
     

    Sure - and envy is a spiritual disease - there is no success in this. I believe Mawlana Rumi (ra) put it best; the material world is the vast sea upon which one crosses the ship of one's soul to the final harbor,undoubtedly the water is necessary for the journey, but if one brings it onto the ship - it shall flounder. Muslims have forgotten that material is the means, not the ends - and God reserves the right to humiliate and teach His servants at the hands of others of His servants until they remember.

    Many, not all, ideas and principles in the foundation of the combined West (or North) are admirable
     
    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard - wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji's anti-colonial efforts:
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/362139?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    That was a different age though, those values were bound to produce a great society (Anglo-Saxon sense of justice, etc.). We are not talking then, we are talking now - any great thinkers or artists? Not that the Muslim world is producing them either - like I said, we are just keeping our heads above water - I have no clue what is keeping us afloat except the efforts and prayers of the previous generations.


    This is an undeniable fact.
     
    It is opinion, but nonetheless, they did indeed establish a wonderful society (of which I am a beneficiary), if it can only be preserved.

    May God preserve you and yours.

    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard – wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji’s anti-colonial efforts:

    OK, let’s clear this out right here. It is a wonderful fact that you delve into West’s massive philosophical heritage–it characterizes you very highly as a man with good intelligence. But let’s not go overboard here–Ummah in general, and this is the fact basically supported by Ummah itself, especially Arab part, barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world, being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa. It all does not mean that some white trailer trash from mid-town USA or some Russian bum from Novosibirsk go around constantly quoting John Locke or Leo Tolstoy, but these are societies in general which incorporate through political system, law practices, general culture, educational level etc. many of those crucial principles which you may find on your book shelves. This is not the case in Ummah. This all is akin to clock, the gears which work in them. Let’s put it this way, Sharia–and there is NO Islam without Sharia, even with all noble efforts by people of Abdurrahman Wahid scale who tried to marry Islam and modernity–and Western culture are simply incompatible, period. It is not a theorem, it is an axiom. One of those factors (a major one) which makes it totally counter to each-other is West’s attitude to women–yes, I read Sayyid Qutb’s Milestones, it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam. In our culture women are equal to men, granted that often this is taken way down the rabbit hole by some feminist nutjobs.

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) – people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.

    Not only I can imagine it, but I have some opinion on that which not necessarily coincides with yours. But you do have some rational point here, albeit it is still debatable.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world
     
    OK - this is a bit hyperbolic. Sure Alexandria, Fez, Sharjah, and Muscat aren't Paris or Luxembourg - but your lungs could collapse and they'd be able to fix you up. But, yes for the more remote areas, I agree - and that matters from a materialist standpoint - it matters not for people with different priorities. Case in point; Imam Malik (ra) was a scholar of the highest rank in Madinah (a city which was not unlike the simple mud structures of Africa at the time) in the 8th century, yet scholars from major metroplises of the time from Persia, the Levant and as far as Andalusia came to seek knowledge at his feet and take it back to their people.

    being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa
     
    A good chunk of Sub-Saharan Africa is part of the Ummah; here is the mosque in a remote part of Mauritania of one of the greatest living scholars (still teaching at 111 years) of the Maliki school of jurisprudence:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8khpeqio7xU/TIkz4a6b6UI/AAAAAAAAAbo/ls8wmHUAvVc/s1600/2787_1138503338952_1118447655_30410000_6459879_n.jpg

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I've known a few myself - it is a transformative experience.
    http://www.ciibroadcasting.com/2012/06/19/unlocking-the-secrets-of-islam-in-dusty-mauritania/

    there is NO Islam without Sharia
     
    Damn straight!

    tried to marry Islam and modernity–and Western culture are simply incompatible, period
     
    We're at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred. But yes, Islam and post-modernity do seem at logger-heads and, I would posit, why anyone would marry Post-Modernism is beyond me - it's like walking into a divorce. Current Western culture - most certainly; of a previous era, that's totally debatable - the Muslim world and the Western world saw eye to eye on a great many things including modesty of dress, complimentary roles of men and women, importance of spirituality (there's a reason why Newton also penned an exegesis on portions of the Bible), public role of religion, etc. The current question before the religious and civic leadership of the Muslim world is to strike that balance that it once had where the great polymaths of Persia and Iberia were also graduates of its religious centers of learning - NOT to simply ape the West.

    it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam
     
    Very big deal - breakdown of the family is the death knell of society. It is reported that Saladin (ra) stated: "If you want to destroy any nation without war, make adultery or nudity common in the young generation." Do you disagree?
    Google images for 'cossack family', tell me what you get? There is a certain formula (we call it fitra), one deviates from it at one's peril.

    In our culture women are equal to men
     
    It took a while to get to this point - for centuries the Shariah accorded women more rights in the realms of things like property law (https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/awhhtml/awlaw3/property_law.html), but sure, no doubt they have more rights in Western societies now. Equality (in the spiritual sense) has never been the problem; the question is, are they supposed to be doing the same things or living the same way as men and thus accorded the same exact rights? I guess this is a fairly large and recent experiment (no society - that I know of - has historically attempted to grant women equal rights at this scale - sure, there are certain matriarchal peoples, but those are usually outliers), to paraphrase Clauswitz, as you did, the proof will be in the pudding once the dust settles.

    Peace.
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  109. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Marcus
    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding: https://cairnsnews.org/2015/09/30/muslims-suffer-insanity-low-iq-recessive-disorders-from-1400-years-inbreeding/


    During the pilot transition program with the KV-107 and C-130 with Lockheed, we found that most Saudi pilot trainees had very limited night vision, even on the brightest of moonlit nights.

    Their training retention rate was minimal including maintenance personnel. Some had dim memories and had to be constantly reminded of things that were told to them the day before. An American, British or any other western instructor is burned out pretty quick. It actually took Muslim C-130 pilots years before they could fly in the dark safely and then would be reluctant to leave the lights of a city.
     

    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding:

    True. But that is the factor which often gets omitted for a PC reasons. In general, while not without own share of exceptions, the opinion of professionals on say Arab officer corps was never very high for a reason, among many, of low retention which becomes a major impediment when making complex tactical and operational decisions, and operating complex technology.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Maybe the turning point of the 1973 war was when one of the few distinguished Arab officers, American-educated Syrian general Omar Abrash, was KIA in the "Valley of Tears," the Syrians were taking heavy losses, but with their new equipment, they could plausibly have pushed ahead

    While the terrain was in Israel's favor it had only a few hundred tanks, though in dug-in positions which had allowed careful targeting of the guns, against thousands of Syrian tanks. I noted last time the curious proliferation of sevens in this sector: the Israeli 7th Armored Brigade under Avigdor Ben-Gal and its 77th Tank Battalion under Avigdor Kahalani on Hermonit faced the attacking force of the Syrian 7th Infantry Division (really Mechanized Infantry with an attached Armored Brigade), under Gen. ‘Omar Abrash. Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army's Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.
     
    https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/10/30/the-stand-of-the-centurions/
    http://mideasti.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-golan-front-in-73-and-hermonit-part.html
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  110. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    No, Marcus, what is repellent to you (many Western males, not ALL, but plenty enough) is to have a wife who is a full time housewife because that means you can't get all the goodies that our material world offers. Oh, and that housewife wouldn't have a decent pension either and would be rewarded with poverty in old age for choosing to be a full time mom. Something that to the Muslims would be scandalous. Be careful, Marcus, about calling for more patriarchy - too many women might want to sign up and too many white guys might be opposed.

    Avery, I'm not talking about actually living with the Muslims (and, btw, as you know, that is way too broad of a term - there are hundreds of different types of Muslim societies), you definitely would've had a much closer insight into that had you (or your (grand) parents) stayed in the Caucasus). I'm not even talking about the "crazy" things some of them do once in a while. I'm talking about the values they elevate. And maybe certain lifestyles. Just to repeat - I oppose ANY non-European immigration and have for many years (and support keeping away from each other's business). But that has nothing to do with the basis of civilization / values / ethics.

    No, Marcus, what is repellent to you (many Western males, not ALL, but plenty enough) is to have a wife who is a full time housewife because that means you can’t get all the goodies that our material world offers. Oh, and that housewife wouldn’t have a decent pension either and would be rewarded with poverty in old age for choosing to be a full time mom. Something that to the Muslims would be scandalous.

    I’d be fine with that, it’s the feminists who pushed for women to put careers first, leading to the current dog eat dog situation for both sexes.

    e careful, Marcus, about calling for more patriarchy – too many women might want to sign up and too many white guys might be opposed.

    You’re right about that, most men are clueless as to what the average woman wants due to feminist indoctrination. It was men that instituted Indo-Aryan traditions that gave elevated status to women, most women would accept even a brutal, Asiatic patriarchy.

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  111. Marcus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The problem may be the dysgenic impact of centuries of inbreeding:
     
    True. But that is the factor which often gets omitted for a PC reasons. In general, while not without own share of exceptions, the opinion of professionals on say Arab officer corps was never very high for a reason, among many, of low retention which becomes a major impediment when making complex tactical and operational decisions, and operating complex technology.

    Maybe the turning point of the 1973 war was when one of the few distinguished Arab officers, American-educated Syrian general Omar Abrash, was KIA in the “Valley of Tears,” the Syrians were taking heavy losses, but with their new equipment, they could plausibly have pushed ahead

    While the terrain was in Israel’s favor it had only a few hundred tanks, though in dug-in positions which had allowed careful targeting of the guns, against thousands of Syrian tanks. I noted last time the curious proliferation of sevens in this sector: the Israeli 7th Armored Brigade under Avigdor Ben-Gal and its 77th Tank Battalion under Avigdor Kahalani on Hermonit faced the attacking force of the Syrian 7th Infantry Division (really Mechanized Infantry with an attached Armored Brigade), under Gen. ‘Omar Abrash. Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army’s Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.

    https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/10/30/the-stand-of-the-centurions/

    http://mideasti.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-golan-front-in-73-and-hermonit-part.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    I am not at home to translate for you some excerpts from Sergievsky's article re: 1973. They are key in understanding of narrative. Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic. While totally deserved by IDF, its victories were blown out of proportion, especially in USA for obvious reasons. As per that:

    Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army’s Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.
     
    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS' command corps comprised largely of former Saddam's officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces. I may address this issue in my blog at some point of time--it is too complex to describe it in short discussion board post.
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  112. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Marcus
    Maybe the turning point of the 1973 war was when one of the few distinguished Arab officers, American-educated Syrian general Omar Abrash, was KIA in the "Valley of Tears," the Syrians were taking heavy losses, but with their new equipment, they could plausibly have pushed ahead

    While the terrain was in Israel's favor it had only a few hundred tanks, though in dug-in positions which had allowed careful targeting of the guns, against thousands of Syrian tanks. I noted last time the curious proliferation of sevens in this sector: the Israeli 7th Armored Brigade under Avigdor Ben-Gal and its 77th Tank Battalion under Avigdor Kahalani on Hermonit faced the attacking force of the Syrian 7th Infantry Division (really Mechanized Infantry with an attached Armored Brigade), under Gen. ‘Omar Abrash. Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army's Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.
     
    https://pjmedia.com/richardfernandez/2013/10/30/the-stand-of-the-centurions/
    http://mideasti.blogspot.com/2013/10/the-golan-front-in-73-and-hermonit-part.html

    I am not at home to translate for you some excerpts from Sergievsky’s article re: 1973. They are key in understanding of narrative. Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic. While totally deserved by IDF, its victories were blown out of proportion, especially in USA for obvious reasons. As per that:

    Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army’s Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.

    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS’ command corps comprised largely of former Saddam’s officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces. I may address this issue in my blog at some point of time–it is too complex to describe it in short discussion board post.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Regnum Nostrum

    The opinion of professionals on say Arab officer corps was never very high for a reason, among many, of low retention which becomes a major impediment when making complex tactical and operational decisions, and operating complex technology.
     
    Arabs cannot fight.

    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS’ command corps comprised largely of former Saddam’s officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces.
     
    Arabs can fight if trained by the Russians.

    Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic.
     
    Weren't Syrian and Egyptian officers trained by the Russians? The greatest military leader of all times, the man who would make Themistocles, Alexander the Great, Hannibal and Caesar blush with envy, the man whose very name strikes fear in the hearts of adversaries sounds a bit inconsistent. Could it be a problem with retention?
    , @Marcus
    I think it's safe to say the US military of the 2000's =/ that of the 1960's and that the Iraqi gov. forces were likely trained in COIN (not suited for fighting IS) above all?
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  113. @Andrei Martyanov
    I am not at home to translate for you some excerpts from Sergievsky's article re: 1973. They are key in understanding of narrative. Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic. While totally deserved by IDF, its victories were blown out of proportion, especially in USA for obvious reasons. As per that:

    Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army’s Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.
     
    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS' command corps comprised largely of former Saddam's officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces. I may address this issue in my blog at some point of time--it is too complex to describe it in short discussion board post.

    The opinion of professionals on say Arab officer corps was never very high for a reason, among many, of low retention which becomes a major impediment when making complex tactical and operational decisions, and operating complex technology.

    Arabs cannot fight.

    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS’ command corps comprised largely of former Saddam’s officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces.

    Arabs can fight if trained by the Russians.

    Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic.

    Weren’t Syrian and Egyptian officers trained by the Russians? The greatest military leader of all times, the man who would make Themistocles, Alexander the Great, Hannibal and Caesar blush with envy, the man whose very name strikes fear in the hearts of adversaries sounds a bit inconsistent. Could it be a problem with retention?

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  114. Marcus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov
    I am not at home to translate for you some excerpts from Sergievsky's article re: 1973. They are key in understanding of narrative. Israeli victories were achieved against supremely incompetent adversary whose problem was and remains systemic. While totally deserved by IDF, its victories were blown out of proportion, especially in USA for obvious reasons. As per that:

    Abrash was a rarity among Syrian generals, trained at the US Army’s Command and Staff College at Fort Leavenworth, and showing much more individual initiative than his Soviet-trained colleagues.
     
    This is a complete baloney tailored to narrative, especially against the background of recent events when IS' command corps comprised largely of former Saddam's officers (overwhelming majority of whom were trained by Soviet/Russian advisers and some graduated Russian military academies) literally wiped the floor with US-trained forces. I may address this issue in my blog at some point of time--it is too complex to describe it in short discussion board post.

    I think it’s safe to say the US military of the 2000′s =/ that of the 1960′s and that the Iraqi gov. forces were likely trained in COIN (not suited for fighting IS) above all?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    True. But only to a degree. Technology deficiencies with Arab militaries from operating the tanks to a much more complex systems such as fighter jets or air-defense complexes were always there no matter what kind of doctrine existed as a framework--COIN or Combined Arms. Just to give you one example, one of Russia's client states (I will not name it here) which bought subs from Russia in 1990s had huge difficulties furnishing competent crews for those. Russian transfer teams were literally terrified with the lack of even fundamental knowledge among officers. Officers who were supposed to be on watch during sub's movement couldn't properly get the visual bearing. Russian transfer team literally had to bring the sub to new base. Now, consider how the training went with weapons' suite, including CICS and sonar. Not well, I can tell you. Back to Arab-Israeli Wars.

    As Brereton Greenhouse recites in his The Israeli Experience when speaking about Arab and Israeli pilots: "Courage they had in abundance, but they lacked "the high degree of our (Israeli) pilots' personal identification with their assignments...." ...There also was the unquantifiable psychological element explained by the Israeli flight leader who reported on the combat. "A good pilot", he said, "is not merely a mixture of skill, resourcefulness, discipline and good judgement, but also, even primarily, an outgrowth of the spiritual values and the cultural level which have nurtured him..."
    "Case Studies In The Achievement Of Air Superiority", Editor Benjamin Franklin Cooling, Center For Air Force History, Washington, D.C., 1994, page 580.
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  115. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Marcus
    I think it's safe to say the US military of the 2000's =/ that of the 1960's and that the Iraqi gov. forces were likely trained in COIN (not suited for fighting IS) above all?

    True. But only to a degree. Technology deficiencies with Arab militaries from operating the tanks to a much more complex systems such as fighter jets or air-defense complexes were always there no matter what kind of doctrine existed as a framework–COIN or Combined Arms. Just to give you one example, one of Russia’s client states (I will not name it here) which bought subs from Russia in 1990s had huge difficulties furnishing competent crews for those. Russian transfer teams were literally terrified with the lack of even fundamental knowledge among officers. Officers who were supposed to be on watch during sub’s movement couldn’t properly get the visual bearing. Russian transfer team literally had to bring the sub to new base. Now, consider how the training went with weapons’ suite, including CICS and sonar. Not well, I can tell you. Back to Arab-Israeli Wars.

    As Brereton Greenhouse recites in his The Israeli Experience when speaking about Arab and Israeli pilots: “Courage they had in abundance, but they lacked “the high degree of our (Israeli) pilots’ personal identification with their assignments….” …There also was the unquantifiable psychological element explained by the Israeli flight leader who reported on the combat. “A good pilot”, he said, “is not merely a mixture of skill, resourcefulness, discipline and good judgement, but also, even primarily, an outgrowth of the spiritual values and the cultural level which have nurtured him…”
    “Case Studies In The Achievement Of Air Superiority”, Editor Benjamin Franklin Cooling, Center For Air Force History, Washington, D.C., 1994, page 580.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Yes, in addition to cognitive differences, I think there's a deeply rooted "casual" approach to warfare in the ME (even in Israel to an extent http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/20663/us-soldiers-impressed-by-informal-idf ) when contrasted to Western traditions of professionalism. This is as advantageous in fighting guerrilla actions as it is deleterious in set-piece campaigns.
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  116. Marcus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov
    True. But only to a degree. Technology deficiencies with Arab militaries from operating the tanks to a much more complex systems such as fighter jets or air-defense complexes were always there no matter what kind of doctrine existed as a framework--COIN or Combined Arms. Just to give you one example, one of Russia's client states (I will not name it here) which bought subs from Russia in 1990s had huge difficulties furnishing competent crews for those. Russian transfer teams were literally terrified with the lack of even fundamental knowledge among officers. Officers who were supposed to be on watch during sub's movement couldn't properly get the visual bearing. Russian transfer team literally had to bring the sub to new base. Now, consider how the training went with weapons' suite, including CICS and sonar. Not well, I can tell you. Back to Arab-Israeli Wars.

    As Brereton Greenhouse recites in his The Israeli Experience when speaking about Arab and Israeli pilots: "Courage they had in abundance, but they lacked "the high degree of our (Israeli) pilots' personal identification with their assignments...." ...There also was the unquantifiable psychological element explained by the Israeli flight leader who reported on the combat. "A good pilot", he said, "is not merely a mixture of skill, resourcefulness, discipline and good judgement, but also, even primarily, an outgrowth of the spiritual values and the cultural level which have nurtured him..."
    "Case Studies In The Achievement Of Air Superiority", Editor Benjamin Franklin Cooling, Center For Air Force History, Washington, D.C., 1994, page 580.

    Yes, in addition to cognitive differences, I think there’s a deeply rooted “casual” approach to warfare in the ME (even in Israel to an extent http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/20663/us-soldiers-impressed-by-informal-idf ) when contrasted to Western traditions of professionalism. This is as advantageous in fighting guerrilla actions as it is deleterious in set-piece campaigns.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    It is very difficult to place IDF in a proper context. Subordination and professional tact and respect are not luxuries--they were written in blood for centuries in order to make armed forces to fight other armed forces. I can not conceive a marine or sailor calling their CO by the first name, respect to the rank and with it to a level of responsibility and decision making is a must. Per guerrilla warfare--long story again, but I can tell you one thing for sure--it becomes even more of a cultural affair.
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  117. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Marcus
    Yes, in addition to cognitive differences, I think there's a deeply rooted "casual" approach to warfare in the ME (even in Israel to an extent http://www.tabletmag.com/scroll/20663/us-soldiers-impressed-by-informal-idf ) when contrasted to Western traditions of professionalism. This is as advantageous in fighting guerrilla actions as it is deleterious in set-piece campaigns.

    It is very difficult to place IDF in a proper context. Subordination and professional tact and respect are not luxuries–they were written in blood for centuries in order to make armed forces to fight other armed forces. I can not conceive a marine or sailor calling their CO by the first name, respect to the rank and with it to a level of responsibility and decision making is a must. Per guerrilla warfare–long story again, but I can tell you one thing for sure–it becomes even more of a cultural affair.

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    • Agree: Marcus
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  118. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    No doubt, I have on my shelf the likes of; Emerson, Thoreau, Kierkegaard – wonderful men. I am originally from Pakistan, I am indebted to Thoreau; to whom one can trace a direct line from Ghandi Ji’s anti-colonial efforts:
     
    OK, let's clear this out right here. It is a wonderful fact that you delve into West's massive philosophical heritage--it characterizes you very highly as a man with good intelligence. But let's not go overboard here--Ummah in general, and this is the fact basically supported by Ummah itself, especially Arab part, barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world, being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa. It all does not mean that some white trailer trash from mid-town USA or some Russian bum from Novosibirsk go around constantly quoting John Locke or Leo Tolstoy, but these are societies in general which incorporate through political system, law practices, general culture, educational level etc. many of those crucial principles which you may find on your book shelves. This is not the case in Ummah. This all is akin to clock, the gears which work in them. Let's put it this way, Sharia--and there is NO Islam without Sharia, even with all noble efforts by people of Abdurrahman Wahid scale who tried to marry Islam and modernity--and Western culture are simply incompatible, period. It is not a theorem, it is an axiom. One of those factors (a major one) which makes it totally counter to each-other is West's attitude to women--yes, I read Sayyid Qutb's Milestones, it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam. In our culture women are equal to men, granted that often this is taken way down the rabbit hole by some feminist nutjobs.

    Now imagine if a Muslim country actually decided to give a good number of them actual training plus maintenance skills, plus locally manufactured firearms (H&K knock-offs). The Chechens stood their ground against Russia in round one, in round two they lost because of a local opposition faction plus the fact that they were top-heavy with Wahhabi-extremists going berserk with the terrorism (targeting children in Beslan was beyond vile) – people like me stopped praying for their success once the plane bombings, hostage taking, etc. started.
     
    Not only I can imagine it, but I have some opinion on that which not necessarily coincides with yours. But you do have some rational point here, albeit it is still debatable.

    Hey Smoothie,

    barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world

    OK – this is a bit hyperbolic. Sure Alexandria, Fez, Sharjah, and Muscat aren’t Paris or Luxembourg – but your lungs could collapse and they’d be able to fix you up. But, yes for the more remote areas, I agree – and that matters from a materialist standpoint – it matters not for people with different priorities. Case in point; Imam Malik (ra) was a scholar of the highest rank in Madinah (a city which was not unlike the simple mud structures of Africa at the time) in the 8th century, yet scholars from major metroplises of the time from Persia, the Levant and as far as Andalusia came to seek knowledge at his feet and take it back to their people.

    being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa

    A good chunk of Sub-Saharan Africa is part of the Ummah; here is the mosque in a remote part of Mauritania of one of the greatest living scholars (still teaching at 111 years) of the Maliki school of jurisprudence:

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I’ve known a few myself – it is a transformative experience.

    http://www.ciibroadcasting.com/2012/06/19/unlocking-the-secrets-of-islam-in-dusty-mauritania/

    there is NO Islam without Sharia

    Damn straight!

    tried to marry Islam and modernity–and Western culture are simply incompatible, period

    We’re at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred. But yes, Islam and post-modernity do seem at logger-heads and, I would posit, why anyone would marry Post-Modernism is beyond me – it’s like walking into a divorce. Current Western culture – most certainly; of a previous era, that’s totally debatable – the Muslim world and the Western world saw eye to eye on a great many things including modesty of dress, complimentary roles of men and women, importance of spirituality (there’s a reason why Newton also penned an exegesis on portions of the Bible), public role of religion, etc. The current question before the religious and civic leadership of the Muslim world is to strike that balance that it once had where the great polymaths of Persia and Iberia were also graduates of its religious centers of learning – NOT to simply ape the West.

    it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam

    Very big deal – breakdown of the family is the death knell of society. It is reported that Saladin (ra) stated: “If you want to destroy any nation without war, make adultery or nudity common in the young generation.” Do you disagree?
    Google images for ‘cossack family’, tell me what you get? There is a certain formula (we call it fitra), one deviates from it at one’s peril.

    In our culture women are equal to men

    It took a while to get to this point – for centuries the Shariah accorded women more rights in the realms of things like property law (https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/awhhtml/awlaw3/property_law.html), but sure, no doubt they have more rights in Western societies now. Equality (in the spiritual sense) has never been the problem; the question is, are they supposed to be doing the same things or living the same way as men and thus accorded the same exact rights? I guess this is a fairly large and recent experiment (no society – that I know of – has historically attempted to grant women equal rights at this scale – sure, there are certain matriarchal peoples, but those are usually outliers), to paraphrase Clauswitz, as you did, the proof will be in the pudding once the dust settles.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus

    Islamic knowledge
     

    Hence I say the Holy Koran, the Prophet’s teaching, the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.
     
    Sheikh Abdul Aziz ibn Baz, president of the Islamic University of Medina in 1966
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  119. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    Damn straight!

    And that is precisely why the gap is unbridgeable in any meaningful sense. In the end, we all know how Islam translates in European languages.

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I’ve known a few myself – it is a transformative experience.

    Yet, in Islam such a “transformative” experience may mean one thing–death for apostasy.

    We’re at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred.

    We are in post-modernity, as well as in post-industrialism only in the imagination of the so called Western “cultural elites”, most of whom are uneducated (in a broad sense) perverted creeps from some notable “humanities” degree mills and who go directly into politics or journalist fields. Reality, however, is completely different–we are still in industrial, however advanced, age and in the age of nation-state asserting its primacy. Anglo-Saxon liberalism which was sharply criticized, among many, by Correlli Barnett is in its death throes but return of Western (that is Northern) conservatism and nationalism has very little to do with Islam and its traditions. In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.

    Read More
    • Agree: JL
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    death for apostasy
     
    There's a running debate on this among current high-level scholars and some have called for its temporary halt because of wide-spread abuse, but I'd not put my money on a massive change on the ruling (for male apostates at least) - though there are definitely avenues to allow for someone to leave to a non-Muslim country in which case he is treated as legally dead (at least in the Hanafi school which has been the widest adopted in history). Again, the major Christian scholars (did not Augustine of Hippo state "There is a righteous persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious.") of the past (for centuries) saw nothing wrong with capital punishment for things such as apostasy, heresy and blasphemy - this ends only fairly late in the game with Westphalia - though some were executing well into the 18th century:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/blasphemy

    It could be argued that Islam has been more generous historically with regards to heresy (nothing like the Thirty Years War happens in Muslim lands - and knowledgeable Sunnis know we benefit from works of Mutazilites and known Shias are in our chains of hadith transmission):
    "Even in the thirteenth century, when the death penalty for obstinate heresy became routine, the Chritian habit of identifying blasphemy as heresy, or of equating the two as one, persisted."
    Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West - burned at the stake - not fun! Did they do drawing and quartering for this?

    has very little to do with Islam and its traditions
     
    Of course not, I was simply pointing out parallels in successful models of population and cultural sustainability. Just as a Muslim should exercise to remain fit, so should a Christian. I'm actually hopeful for a more Christianity-aligned West - I think the alternative is likely a slow suicide punctuated by times of massive unrest and (possibly) mental disease.

    In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.
     
    Sometimes, but Reagan's administration supported the mujahideen quite overtly.

    Peace.
    , @Marcus
    Yes, it's the Islamophiles like Bush, Cameron, and Obama who do the most damage to Muslims and give the most support, direct and inadvertent to hardliners

    What the Muslim world needs, is not more civil wars, sectarian wars, foreign military interventions, which all serve to polarize the minds, to freeze them in existing antagonisms. What it needs is a thaw. Here again, I speak from my own experience: the post-war climate of peace and prosperity in Europe has allowed a genuine cultural revolution, an emancipation from the stranglehold of Christianity. The Muslim world will only evolve if it attains a modicum of peace and stability.

    Note that the military interventions have nothing to do with Islam criticism, nowadays slandered as “Islamophobia”. On the contrary. Without exception, all the politicians ordering interventions in Muslim countries have praised Islam, calling it “the religion of peace” that is being “misused” by the terrorists. Not a single word of Islam criticism has ever crossed their lips.
     
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  120. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    barely registers on any meaningful human development index in the world
     
    OK - this is a bit hyperbolic. Sure Alexandria, Fez, Sharjah, and Muscat aren't Paris or Luxembourg - but your lungs could collapse and they'd be able to fix you up. But, yes for the more remote areas, I agree - and that matters from a materialist standpoint - it matters not for people with different priorities. Case in point; Imam Malik (ra) was a scholar of the highest rank in Madinah (a city which was not unlike the simple mud structures of Africa at the time) in the 8th century, yet scholars from major metroplises of the time from Persia, the Levant and as far as Andalusia came to seek knowledge at his feet and take it back to their people.

    being beaten to the bottom only by Sub-Saharan Africa
     
    A good chunk of Sub-Saharan Africa is part of the Ummah; here is the mosque in a remote part of Mauritania of one of the greatest living scholars (still teaching at 111 years) of the Maliki school of jurisprudence:
    http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_8khpeqio7xU/TIkz4a6b6UI/AAAAAAAAAbo/ls8wmHUAvVc/s1600/2787_1138503338952_1118447655_30410000_6459879_n.jpg

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I've known a few myself - it is a transformative experience.
    http://www.ciibroadcasting.com/2012/06/19/unlocking-the-secrets-of-islam-in-dusty-mauritania/

    there is NO Islam without Sharia
     
    Damn straight!

    tried to marry Islam and modernity–and Western culture are simply incompatible, period
     
    We're at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred. But yes, Islam and post-modernity do seem at logger-heads and, I would posit, why anyone would marry Post-Modernism is beyond me - it's like walking into a divorce. Current Western culture - most certainly; of a previous era, that's totally debatable - the Muslim world and the Western world saw eye to eye on a great many things including modesty of dress, complimentary roles of men and women, importance of spirituality (there's a reason why Newton also penned an exegesis on portions of the Bible), public role of religion, etc. The current question before the religious and civic leadership of the Muslim world is to strike that balance that it once had where the great polymaths of Persia and Iberia were also graduates of its religious centers of learning - NOT to simply ape the West.

    it seems that gender and sex issue is THE THING in Islam
     
    Very big deal - breakdown of the family is the death knell of society. It is reported that Saladin (ra) stated: "If you want to destroy any nation without war, make adultery or nudity common in the young generation." Do you disagree?
    Google images for 'cossack family', tell me what you get? There is a certain formula (we call it fitra), one deviates from it at one's peril.

    In our culture women are equal to men
     
    It took a while to get to this point - for centuries the Shariah accorded women more rights in the realms of things like property law (https://memory.loc.gov/ammem/awhhtml/awlaw3/property_law.html), but sure, no doubt they have more rights in Western societies now. Equality (in the spiritual sense) has never been the problem; the question is, are they supposed to be doing the same things or living the same way as men and thus accorded the same exact rights? I guess this is a fairly large and recent experiment (no society - that I know of - has historically attempted to grant women equal rights at this scale - sure, there are certain matriarchal peoples, but those are usually outliers), to paraphrase Clauswitz, as you did, the proof will be in the pudding once the dust settles.

    Peace.

    Islamic knowledge

    Hence I say the Holy Koran, the Prophet’s teaching, the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.

    Sheikh Abdul Aziz ibn Baz, president of the Islamic University of Medina in 1966

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.}

    And that is why Europe and North America and all the rest of Christendom shall invite all of Islamistan to move to and settle in Christendom, as is their divine Muslim right, to show the apostate heathen the Heavenly Truth, and to guide the heathen to willingly and happily accept Allah, Allah the Almighty:

    Allah the all knowing.
    Allah the all seeing.
    Allah the merciful.

    Peace be upon you brothers and sisters.
    , @Talha
    Seriously bro - you want to bring out the biggest Wahhabi scholar of the past few decades as your one reference point? Literal interpretation of sacred texts (trade mark of Wahhabi viewpoint) lacks the necessary nuance they deserve - this is known, this is why the Persian and Arab polymaths of the past were Hanafi, Shafi'i or Maliki. Come on Marcus, you can do better than that. No doubt Copernicus thought things 'out of the box' (like Newton), but to think the Muslim scholars working on this were completely ignorant of this possibility is nonsense:
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008Obs...128..231G
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Biruni

    Furthermore, I don't know of any other serious Muslim scholars that don't believe in the heliocentric model (or that the US didn't land a craft on the moon).

    Peace.
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  121. Marcus says:

    NOT to simply ape the West.

    There shouldn’t be a need to, the Middle East and the Indian subcontinent contributed much more to humanity than northwestern Europe until relatively recently: the first superpowers were the Egyptian, neo-Assyrian and Persian empires, the Greeks owed a great deal to Babylonian astronomy and mathematics, and the Indus Valley had a wondrous civilization long before anything arose in Greece. I am a racialist to an extent, but I won’t try to explain all these facts away with half-baked Aryan theories. But why have these regions been static for centuries now? These peoples have potential, but they are held in check by a an ideology of fanaticism and fatalism.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
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  122. Avery says:
    @Marcus

    Islamic knowledge
     

    Hence I say the Holy Koran, the Prophet’s teaching, the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.
     
    Sheikh Abdul Aziz ibn Baz, president of the Islamic University of Medina in 1966

    {the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.}

    And that is why Europe and North America and all the rest of Christendom shall invite all of Islamistan to move to and settle in Christendom, as is their divine Muslim right, to show the apostate heathen the Heavenly Truth, and to guide the heathen to willingly and happily accept Allah, Allah the Almighty:

    Allah the all knowing.
    Allah the all seeing.
    Allah the merciful.

    Peace be upon you brothers and sisters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    'Tomatoes are Christian,' Egyptian Salafi group warns

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393



    {A Salafi group called the "Popular Egyptian Islamic Association" has warned Muslims against eating tomatoes on the grounds that the fruit is a "Christian food," NowLebanon.com has reported. }

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  123. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Damn straight!
     
    And that is precisely why the gap is unbridgeable in any meaningful sense. In the end, we all know how Islam translates in European languages.

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I’ve known a few myself – it is a transformative experience.
     
    Yet, in Islam such a "transformative" experience may mean one thing--death for apostasy.

    We’re at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred.
     
    We are in post-modernity, as well as in post-industrialism only in the imagination of the so called Western "cultural elites", most of whom are uneducated (in a broad sense) perverted creeps from some notable "humanities" degree mills and who go directly into politics or journalist fields. Reality, however, is completely different--we are still in industrial, however advanced, age and in the age of nation-state asserting its primacy. Anglo-Saxon liberalism which was sharply criticized, among many, by Correlli Barnett is in its death throes but return of Western (that is Northern) conservatism and nationalism has very little to do with Islam and its traditions. In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.

    Hey Smoothie,

    death for apostasy

    There’s a running debate on this among current high-level scholars and some have called for its temporary halt because of wide-spread abuse, but I’d not put my money on a massive change on the ruling (for male apostates at least) – though there are definitely avenues to allow for someone to leave to a non-Muslim country in which case he is treated as legally dead (at least in the Hanafi school which has been the widest adopted in history). Again, the major Christian scholars (did not Augustine of Hippo state “There is a righteous persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious.”) of the past (for centuries) saw nothing wrong with capital punishment for things such as apostasy, heresy and blasphemy – this ends only fairly late in the game with Westphalia – though some were executing well into the 18th century:

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/blasphemy

    It could be argued that Islam has been more generous historically with regards to heresy (nothing like the Thirty Years War happens in Muslim lands – and knowledgeable Sunnis know we benefit from works of Mutazilites and known Shias are in our chains of hadith transmission):
    “Even in the thirteenth century, when the death penalty for obstinate heresy became routine, the Chritian habit of identifying blasphemy as heresy, or of equating the two as one, persisted.”
    Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West – burned at the stake – not fun! Did they do drawing and quartering for this?

    has very little to do with Islam and its traditions

    Of course not, I was simply pointing out parallels in successful models of population and cultural sustainability. Just as a Muslim should exercise to remain fit, so should a Christian. I’m actually hopeful for a more Christianity-aligned West – I think the alternative is likely a slow suicide punctuated by times of massive unrest and (possibly) mental disease.

    In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.

    Sometimes, but Reagan’s administration supported the mujahideen quite overtly.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West – burned at the stake – not fun!
     
    West still burns "witches"? This is news to me, checked my calendar--13 July 2016. Meanwhile:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/10/honor-killing-in-us-justice-department-mulls-guidelines-as-grim-toll-rises.html

    And this is US alone.
    , @Marcus
    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers ? I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of "deviations" in the past (not so much now with Gulf money flowing to madrassas, tabligh,etc.), there wasn't that kind of "gray zone" in Christendom due to the Church's authority. Syncretic traditions developed with Sufi proselytization often made headway where coercion failed or wasn't possible.
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  124. Avery says:
    @Avery
    {the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.}

    And that is why Europe and North America and all the rest of Christendom shall invite all of Islamistan to move to and settle in Christendom, as is their divine Muslim right, to show the apostate heathen the Heavenly Truth, and to guide the heathen to willingly and happily accept Allah, Allah the Almighty:

    Allah the all knowing.
    Allah the all seeing.
    Allah the merciful.

    Peace be upon you brothers and sisters.

    ‘Tomatoes are Christian,’ Egyptian Salafi group warns

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns–.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393


    {A Salafi group called the “Popular Egyptian Islamic Association” has warned Muslims against eating tomatoes on the grounds that the fruit is a “Christian food,” NowLebanon.com has reported. }

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393

    Strange: UNZ.com scrambles the link to a Bad Link.


    [egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238]

    is changed to

    [egyptian-salafi-group-warns–.aspx?PageID=238]

    looks like UNZ doe snot like the two dashes "--"

    , @Talha
    LOL! You gotta hand it to the Salafis - when they break with the jamhur (majority) they seriously break with it!

    Thanks for the laugh Avery - may God always keep you smiling!
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  125. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    death for apostasy
     
    There's a running debate on this among current high-level scholars and some have called for its temporary halt because of wide-spread abuse, but I'd not put my money on a massive change on the ruling (for male apostates at least) - though there are definitely avenues to allow for someone to leave to a non-Muslim country in which case he is treated as legally dead (at least in the Hanafi school which has been the widest adopted in history). Again, the major Christian scholars (did not Augustine of Hippo state "There is a righteous persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious.") of the past (for centuries) saw nothing wrong with capital punishment for things such as apostasy, heresy and blasphemy - this ends only fairly late in the game with Westphalia - though some were executing well into the 18th century:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/blasphemy

    It could be argued that Islam has been more generous historically with regards to heresy (nothing like the Thirty Years War happens in Muslim lands - and knowledgeable Sunnis know we benefit from works of Mutazilites and known Shias are in our chains of hadith transmission):
    "Even in the thirteenth century, when the death penalty for obstinate heresy became routine, the Chritian habit of identifying blasphemy as heresy, or of equating the two as one, persisted."
    Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West - burned at the stake - not fun! Did they do drawing and quartering for this?

    has very little to do with Islam and its traditions
     
    Of course not, I was simply pointing out parallels in successful models of population and cultural sustainability. Just as a Muslim should exercise to remain fit, so should a Christian. I'm actually hopeful for a more Christianity-aligned West - I think the alternative is likely a slow suicide punctuated by times of massive unrest and (possibly) mental disease.

    In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.
     
    Sometimes, but Reagan's administration supported the mujahideen quite overtly.

    Peace.

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West – burned at the stake – not fun!

    West still burns “witches”? This is news to me, checked my calendar–13 July 2016. Meanwhile:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/10/honor-killing-in-us-justice-department-mulls-guidelines-as-grim-toll-rises.html

    And this is US alone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    Of course it doesn't, that's preposterous; I said it killed (sometimes burned) blasphemers for centuries - obviously not today.

    This honor killing business is a major problem, no doubt. The ignorant masses to one thing, the scholars are stating another:
    "The concept of honor killing has no basis in Islam. In fact, it is a major crime. A person guilty of honor killing will be put to death in an Islamic state where the qādi (judge) has the right to regulate and implement capital punishment."
    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/81335

    Mufti Hisham (db) used to live walking distance from my house - he's a young and very capable Hanafi scholar.

    "Within many Islamic countries the extra-judicial killing of persons by members of their own families for real or perceived moral infractions has been relatively common. Such 'honour killings' are in fact violations of both civil and Islamic law, but perpetrators frequently use religious reasons to defend their actions, thereby giving the crime a veneer of justification."
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/punishment#ref=ref991101

    Prof. Jonathan Brown (db) talks about the dovetailing of the current status of light punishments for honor killings in places like Pakistan and their origins in Colonial common-law adoption:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9B1cGVjGH4

    Peace.

    , @avraham
    Ur comments on this thread I find amazingly instructive-- [and Tahla's also]. Thanks
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  126. Avery says:
    @Avery
    'Tomatoes are Christian,' Egyptian Salafi group warns

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393



    {A Salafi group called the "Popular Egyptian Islamic Association" has warned Muslims against eating tomatoes on the grounds that the fruit is a "Christian food," NowLebanon.com has reported. }

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns–.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393

    Strange: UNZ.com scrambles the link to a Bad Link.

    [egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238]

    is changed to

    [egyptian-salafi-group-warns–.aspx?PageID=238]

    looks like UNZ doe snot like the two dashes “–”

    Read More
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  127. Talha says:
    @Marcus

    Islamic knowledge
     

    Hence I say the Holy Koran, the Prophet’s teaching, the majority of Islamic scientists, and the actual fact prove that the sun is running in its orbit, as Almighty God ordained, and that the earth is fixed and stable, spread out by God for his mankind and made a bed and cradle for them, fixed down firmly by mountains, lest it shake.
     
    Sheikh Abdul Aziz ibn Baz, president of the Islamic University of Medina in 1966

    Seriously bro – you want to bring out the biggest Wahhabi scholar of the past few decades as your one reference point? Literal interpretation of sacred texts (trade mark of Wahhabi viewpoint) lacks the necessary nuance they deserve – this is known, this is why the Persian and Arab polymaths of the past were Hanafi, Shafi’i or Maliki. Come on Marcus, you can do better than that. No doubt Copernicus thought things ‘out of the box’ (like Newton), but to think the Muslim scholars working on this were completely ignorant of this possibility is nonsense:

    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008Obs…128..231G

    https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Biruni

    Furthermore, I don’t know of any other serious Muslim scholars that don’t believe in the heliocentric model (or that the US didn’t land a craft on the moon).

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Doh! I also got bamboozled by the HTML preformating - luckily, I do this for a living:

    Copernicus and Ibn al-Shatir
    , @Marcus
    So you'd say that most Muslim theologians have moved away from literalism in cosmology, like Catholics did?
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  128. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West – burned at the stake – not fun!
     
    West still burns "witches"? This is news to me, checked my calendar--13 July 2016. Meanwhile:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/10/honor-killing-in-us-justice-department-mulls-guidelines-as-grim-toll-rises.html

    And this is US alone.

    Hey Smoothie,

    Of course it doesn’t, that’s preposterous; I said it killed (sometimes burned) blasphemers for centuries – obviously not today.

    This honor killing business is a major problem, no doubt. The ignorant masses to one thing, the scholars are stating another:
    “The concept of honor killing has no basis in Islam. In fact, it is a major crime. A person guilty of honor killing will be put to death in an Islamic state where the qādi (judge) has the right to regulate and implement capital punishment.”

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/81335

    Mufti Hisham (db) used to live walking distance from my house – he’s a young and very capable Hanafi scholar.

    “Within many Islamic countries the extra-judicial killing of persons by members of their own families for real or perceived moral infractions has been relatively common. Such ‘honour killings’ are in fact violations of both civil and Islamic law, but perpetrators frequently use religious reasons to defend their actions, thereby giving the crime a veneer of justification.”

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/punishment#ref=ref991101

    Prof. Jonathan Brown (db) talks about the dovetailing of the current status of light punishments for honor killings in places like Pakistan and their origins in Colonial common-law adoption:

    Peace.

    Read More
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  129. Talha says:
    @Avery
    'Tomatoes are Christian,' Egyptian Salafi group warns

    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tomatoes-are-christian-egyptian-salafi-group-warns--.aspx?PageID=238&NID=23713&NewsCatID=393



    {A Salafi group called the "Popular Egyptian Islamic Association" has warned Muslims against eating tomatoes on the grounds that the fruit is a "Christian food," NowLebanon.com has reported. }

    LOL! You gotta hand it to the Salafis – when they break with the jamhur (majority) they seriously break with it!

    Thanks for the laugh Avery – may God always keep you smiling!

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  130. Talha says:
    @Talha
    Seriously bro - you want to bring out the biggest Wahhabi scholar of the past few decades as your one reference point? Literal interpretation of sacred texts (trade mark of Wahhabi viewpoint) lacks the necessary nuance they deserve - this is known, this is why the Persian and Arab polymaths of the past were Hanafi, Shafi'i or Maliki. Come on Marcus, you can do better than that. No doubt Copernicus thought things 'out of the box' (like Newton), but to think the Muslim scholars working on this were completely ignorant of this possibility is nonsense:
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008Obs...128..231G
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Biruni

    Furthermore, I don't know of any other serious Muslim scholars that don't believe in the heliocentric model (or that the US didn't land a craft on the moon).

    Peace.

    Doh! I also got bamboozled by the HTML preformating – luckily, I do this for a living:

    Copernicus and Ibn al-Shatir

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  131. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Seriously bro - you want to bring out the biggest Wahhabi scholar of the past few decades as your one reference point? Literal interpretation of sacred texts (trade mark of Wahhabi viewpoint) lacks the necessary nuance they deserve - this is known, this is why the Persian and Arab polymaths of the past were Hanafi, Shafi'i or Maliki. Come on Marcus, you can do better than that. No doubt Copernicus thought things 'out of the box' (like Newton), but to think the Muslim scholars working on this were completely ignorant of this possibility is nonsense:
    http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2008Obs...128..231G
    https://www.britannica.com/biography/al-Biruni

    Furthermore, I don't know of any other serious Muslim scholars that don't believe in the heliocentric model (or that the US didn't land a craft on the moon).

    Peace.

    So you’d say that most Muslim theologians have moved away from literalism in cosmology, like Catholics did?

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I'd say that literalism in cosmology has not been much of a problem for us. I don't know of a serious Muslim theologian of the past (maybe you do) who thought the universe was created in 6 literal days or the Day of Judgment is a literal day or the like. Literalism in interpretation of these texts leads to bizarre results. For instance, 'The Countenance/Face of God" or the similarly worded hadith which is used as evidence by the jurists that it is prohibited to strike another’s face “for God created Adam in His image.” – Reported in Muslim

    Nobody save a certain group (can you guess?) takes these things at their face value because it leads to anthropomorphism (tajseem) which is rejected as heterodox (and even unbelief - according to a minority).

    Here, Prof. Jonathan Brown (db) - again - explains how classical Muslim scholars interpreted hadith like the one where it mentions the sun prostrates beneath the throne of God when it sets:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LIooASnEfc

    Things like evolution and stuff don't really bother most educated Muslims (I mean, we believe it is guided by God, not chance so we probably have a lot in common with educated Christians there), but if some desert nomad believes the world is still flat - who cares? God is not going to ask us about these particulars. He'll ask you how you treated your parents and more important things.

    Peace.

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  132. Marcus says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Damn straight!
     
    And that is precisely why the gap is unbridgeable in any meaningful sense. In the end, we all know how Islam translates in European languages.

    And yet many Western students of Islamic knowledge trek out there to light their candle from that lamp; I’ve known a few myself – it is a transformative experience.
     
    Yet, in Islam such a "transformative" experience may mean one thing--death for apostasy.

    We’re at Post-Modernity actually, people can probably nit-pick when the transition occurred.
     
    We are in post-modernity, as well as in post-industrialism only in the imagination of the so called Western "cultural elites", most of whom are uneducated (in a broad sense) perverted creeps from some notable "humanities" degree mills and who go directly into politics or journalist fields. Reality, however, is completely different--we are still in industrial, however advanced, age and in the age of nation-state asserting its primacy. Anglo-Saxon liberalism which was sharply criticized, among many, by Correlli Barnett is in its death throes but return of Western (that is Northern) conservatism and nationalism has very little to do with Islam and its traditions. In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.

    Yes, it’s the Islamophiles like Bush, Cameron, and Obama who do the most damage to Muslims and give the most support, direct and inadvertent to hardliners

    What the Muslim world needs, is not more civil wars, sectarian wars, foreign military interventions, which all serve to polarize the minds, to freeze them in existing antagonisms. What it needs is a thaw. Here again, I speak from my own experience: the post-war climate of peace and prosperity in Europe has allowed a genuine cultural revolution, an emancipation from the stranglehold of Christianity. The Muslim world will only evolve if it attains a modicum of peace and stability.

    Note that the military interventions have nothing to do with Islam criticism, nowadays slandered as “Islamophobia”. On the contrary. Without exception, all the politicians ordering interventions in Muslim countries have praised Islam, calling it “the religion of peace” that is being “misused” by the terrorists. Not a single word of Islam criticism has ever crossed their lips.

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  133. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    So you'd say that most Muslim theologians have moved away from literalism in cosmology, like Catholics did?

    Hey Marcus,

    I’d say that literalism in cosmology has not been much of a problem for us. I don’t know of a serious Muslim theologian of the past (maybe you do) who thought the universe was created in 6 literal days or the Day of Judgment is a literal day or the like. Literalism in interpretation of these texts leads to bizarre results. For instance, ‘The Countenance/Face of God” or the similarly worded hadith which is used as evidence by the jurists that it is prohibited to strike another’s face “for God created Adam in His image.” – Reported in Muslim

    Nobody save a certain group (can you guess?) takes these things at their face value because it leads to anthropomorphism (tajseem) which is rejected as heterodox (and even unbelief – according to a minority).

    Here, Prof. Jonathan Brown (db) – again – explains how classical Muslim scholars interpreted hadith like the one where it mentions the sun prostrates beneath the throne of God when it sets:

    Things like evolution and stuff don’t really bother most educated Muslims (I mean, we believe it is guided by God, not chance so we probably have a lot in common with educated Christians there), but if some desert nomad believes the world is still flat – who cares? God is not going to ask us about these particulars. He’ll ask you how you treated your parents and more important things.

    Peace.

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  134. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Hey Smoothie,

    death for apostasy
     
    There's a running debate on this among current high-level scholars and some have called for its temporary halt because of wide-spread abuse, but I'd not put my money on a massive change on the ruling (for male apostates at least) - though there are definitely avenues to allow for someone to leave to a non-Muslim country in which case he is treated as legally dead (at least in the Hanafi school which has been the widest adopted in history). Again, the major Christian scholars (did not Augustine of Hippo state "There is a righteous persecution which the Church of Christ inflicts upon the impious.") of the past (for centuries) saw nothing wrong with capital punishment for things such as apostasy, heresy and blasphemy - this ends only fairly late in the game with Westphalia - though some were executing well into the 18th century:
    https://www.britannica.com/topic/blasphemy

    It could be argued that Islam has been more generous historically with regards to heresy (nothing like the Thirty Years War happens in Muslim lands - and knowledgeable Sunnis know we benefit from works of Mutazilites and known Shias are in our chains of hadith transmission):
    "Even in the thirteenth century, when the death penalty for obstinate heresy became routine, the Chritian habit of identifying blasphemy as heresy, or of equating the two as one, persisted."
    Blasphemy: Verbal Offense Against the Sacred, from Moses to Salman Rushdie

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West - burned at the stake - not fun! Did they do drawing and quartering for this?

    has very little to do with Islam and its traditions
     
    Of course not, I was simply pointing out parallels in successful models of population and cultural sustainability. Just as a Muslim should exercise to remain fit, so should a Christian. I'm actually hopeful for a more Christianity-aligned West - I think the alternative is likely a slow suicide punctuated by times of massive unrest and (possibly) mental disease.

    In fact, it is liberalism with its totalitarian streak which is constantly found supporting both Islam and even terrorism, however tacitly.
     
    Sometimes, but Reagan's administration supported the mujahideen quite overtly.

    Peace.

    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers ? I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of “deviations” in the past (not so much now with Gulf money flowing to madrassas, tabligh,etc.), there wasn’t that kind of “gray zone” in Christendom due to the Church’s authority. Syncretic traditions developed with Sufi proselytization often made headway where coercion failed or wasn’t possible.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers
     
    Just a note (because the truth requires precision); if you said you were presenting evidence for a ruling from the 'sira' in a gathering of scholars, they would be polite, but likely be giggling inside. The seerah and maghazi literature is the weakest of our sciences - it is basically history and without citation of sources and lack of corroboration - if they were all burned, it wouldn't change much in the day to day practice of Muslims. To your point though, I'm no top-level scholar, but that's why I said I wouldn't put my money on it. There were dissenting opinions by very high-level scholars of the past, but their schools don't exist any more.

    I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of “deviations” in the past
     
    I would actually disagree with this - if you read any of the books of aqeedah (creed) - at least Sunni - and their commentaries, you will see side by side with refutations of heterodox doctrine, exhortations to maintain the unity of the believers - the 'People of the Qiblah'. Like I mentioned, we still utilize works of known Mutazilites, other Rationalists, Shiahs, Zaydis - they also utilize ours. There are, of course limits, to the deviations.

    Sufism is a complicated animal. It definitely has the ability to develop syncretic or deviant tendencies, but there are corrective avenues within the tradition that bring things back in order and this does not require coercion; it is usually done at the hands of scholar/Sufis like; Imam Ghazali (ra), Imam Sirhindi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Imam al-Haddad (ra), Shaykh Thanawi (ra), Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) - just off the top of my head and there are many others.

    Wahhabism would have been at a dead end road languishing in the Najd area if the British hadn't foolishly revived it and helped it to overtake a massive resource of wealth in the way of oil fields. This is definitely a test for the Ummah and the world.

    Peace.
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  135. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers ? I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of "deviations" in the past (not so much now with Gulf money flowing to madrassas, tabligh,etc.), there wasn't that kind of "gray zone" in Christendom due to the Church's authority. Syncretic traditions developed with Sufi proselytization often made headway where coercion failed or wasn't possible.

    Hey Marcus,

    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers

    Just a note (because the truth requires precision); if you said you were presenting evidence for a ruling from the ‘sira’ in a gathering of scholars, they would be polite, but likely be giggling inside. The seerah and maghazi literature is the weakest of our sciences – it is basically history and without citation of sources and lack of corroboration – if they were all burned, it wouldn’t change much in the day to day practice of Muslims. To your point though, I’m no top-level scholar, but that’s why I said I wouldn’t put my money on it. There were dissenting opinions by very high-level scholars of the past, but their schools don’t exist any more.

    I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of “deviations” in the past

    I would actually disagree with this – if you read any of the books of aqeedah (creed) – at least Sunni – and their commentaries, you will see side by side with refutations of heterodox doctrine, exhortations to maintain the unity of the believers – the ‘People of the Qiblah’. Like I mentioned, we still utilize works of known Mutazilites, other Rationalists, Shiahs, Zaydis – they also utilize ours. There are, of course limits, to the deviations.

    Sufism is a complicated animal. It definitely has the ability to develop syncretic or deviant tendencies, but there are corrective avenues within the tradition that bring things back in order and this does not require coercion; it is usually done at the hands of scholar/Sufis like; Imam Ghazali (ra), Imam Sirhindi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Imam al-Haddad (ra), Shaykh Thanawi (ra), Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) – just off the top of my head and there are many others.

    Wahhabism would have been at a dead end road languishing in the Najd area if the British hadn’t foolishly revived it and helped it to overtake a massive resource of wealth in the way of oil fields. This is definitely a test for the Ummah and the world.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Yes, I can think of examples of prominent Sufis who were executed, like Mansur al-Hallaj and several "saints" in the subcontinent, but I don't suppose this was the norm in most eras; in fact many powerful rulers were patrons of Sufi orders. Regarding the intricacies of Sufism, I've studied history much more than religion, but I'd like to research it if possible since Christian and other perennialists I've met have often recommended writers on Sufism like Sayyed Hossein Nasr in addition to their own coreligionists. I'm an agnostic with anarchic leanings, so the dogmatism of mainstream Abrahamic faiths was always a turn-off to me.
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  136. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    Talha, there must be some solidarity there with the older generations helping the young as well when they need it.

    And regarding what you said above, I would like to ask you to not stop praying for the Vainakh people after all since some of them are in Syria, too, right now. Some of them are desperate, left with no good allies, there is pain and their youth need to find their way back home.

    Dear LW,

    Yes, I agree about the inter-generational assistance. One thing that constantly comes to mind is that a lot of things in the West are done (privately and publicly) through massive debt-financing. It is literally placing financial burden on the shoulders of those who never had a say in the matter – this has spiritual ramifications.

    This is the first I have heard of those people, but I will indeed pray for them, and hope that both you and I find ourselves in the their prayers (in a positive way because their voices are special)…
    “Beware the supplication of the oppressed, even if he is an unbeliever, for there is no veil between it and God.” – reported in Musnad Ahmad

    I hope that whatever Muslim community is already in your area (I totally understand the sentiment for not allowing any more) behaves with the best character to their host people.

    Peace.

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  137. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Isnt it nearly impossible to ignore the evidence in the sira that call for executions d apostates and blasphemers
     
    Just a note (because the truth requires precision); if you said you were presenting evidence for a ruling from the 'sira' in a gathering of scholars, they would be polite, but likely be giggling inside. The seerah and maghazi literature is the weakest of our sciences - it is basically history and without citation of sources and lack of corroboration - if they were all burned, it wouldn't change much in the day to day practice of Muslims. To your point though, I'm no top-level scholar, but that's why I said I wouldn't put my money on it. There were dissenting opinions by very high-level scholars of the past, but their schools don't exist any more.

    I agree that lack of a strong central authority probably made Islam more tolerant of “deviations” in the past
     
    I would actually disagree with this - if you read any of the books of aqeedah (creed) - at least Sunni - and their commentaries, you will see side by side with refutations of heterodox doctrine, exhortations to maintain the unity of the believers - the 'People of the Qiblah'. Like I mentioned, we still utilize works of known Mutazilites, other Rationalists, Shiahs, Zaydis - they also utilize ours. There are, of course limits, to the deviations.

    Sufism is a complicated animal. It definitely has the ability to develop syncretic or deviant tendencies, but there are corrective avenues within the tradition that bring things back in order and this does not require coercion; it is usually done at the hands of scholar/Sufis like; Imam Ghazali (ra), Imam Sirhindi (ra), Ibn Ata Illah (ra), Imam al-Haddad (ra), Shaykh Thanawi (ra), Sidi Ahmad Zarruq (ra) - just off the top of my head and there are many others.

    Wahhabism would have been at a dead end road languishing in the Najd area if the British hadn't foolishly revived it and helped it to overtake a massive resource of wealth in the way of oil fields. This is definitely a test for the Ummah and the world.

    Peace.

    Yes, I can think of examples of prominent Sufis who were executed, like Mansur al-Hallaj and several “saints” in the subcontinent, but I don’t suppose this was the norm in most eras; in fact many powerful rulers were patrons of Sufi orders. Regarding the intricacies of Sufism, I’ve studied history much more than religion, but I’d like to research it if possible since Christian and other perennialists I’ve met have often recommended writers on Sufism like Sayyed Hossein Nasr in addition to their own coreligionists. I’m an agnostic with anarchic leanings, so the dogmatism of mainstream Abrahamic faiths was always a turn-off to me.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    I know about al-Hallaj - that one is famous - but, if you read the account, you can see the palpable reluctance in men like Imam Junaid (ra) having to pass the judgement on technical terms. Usually, if their words could be granted poetic license, they would be overlooked; case in point Shaykh Ibn Al-Arabi (ra). Could you tell me which Sufis were killed in India? It's not that I doubt it, just wondering...I mean we've had our extremists in the past; al-Mohads (at the beginning, then they chilled out a bit) immediately come to mind.

    Prof. Nasr is solid. As as Prof. Alan Godlas (http://islam.uga.edu/Sufism.html), Timothy Winter, Umar Faruq Abdallah.

    This is a great book:
    https://www.amazon.com/Sufi-Saint-Twentieth-Century-al-Alawi/dp/0946621500

    This one is about Imam Ghazali (ra):
    https://www.amazon.com/Al-Ghazalis-Path-Sufism-Deliverance-al-Munqidh/dp/1887752307/

    The West knows him for his philosophical works - that's not what made him the Imam Ghazali (ra) we know - he was one of the top scholars and minds of his time and he had a complete spiritual crisis when he realized that most scholars of his time (including himself) were only studying to get good positions in the judicial system or other worldly praise. He quit his job at the prestigious Nizamiyyah University and went on a journey to completely annihilate his ego - and at that point, he discovered what the Sufis had - that is why his books are in the house of almost every serious student of knowledge.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjL6cUZXnI4&feature=youtu.be&t=16s

    Peace.

    For the record, I actually like anarchists and libertarians; I might not agree with everything they say, but I think they play a valuable role in putting societies' feet to the fire to rationalize and prove out the legitimacy of state power especially when it makes a play for more.

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  138. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Yes, I can think of examples of prominent Sufis who were executed, like Mansur al-Hallaj and several "saints" in the subcontinent, but I don't suppose this was the norm in most eras; in fact many powerful rulers were patrons of Sufi orders. Regarding the intricacies of Sufism, I've studied history much more than religion, but I'd like to research it if possible since Christian and other perennialists I've met have often recommended writers on Sufism like Sayyed Hossein Nasr in addition to their own coreligionists. I'm an agnostic with anarchic leanings, so the dogmatism of mainstream Abrahamic faiths was always a turn-off to me.

    Hey Marcus,

    I know about al-Hallaj – that one is famous – but, if you read the account, you can see the palpable reluctance in men like Imam Junaid (ra) having to pass the judgement on technical terms. Usually, if their words could be granted poetic license, they would be overlooked; case in point Shaykh Ibn Al-Arabi (ra). Could you tell me which Sufis were killed in India? It’s not that I doubt it, just wondering…I mean we’ve had our extremists in the past; al-Mohads (at the beginning, then they chilled out a bit) immediately come to mind.

    Prof. Nasr is solid. As as Prof. Alan Godlas (http://islam.uga.edu/Sufism.html), Timothy Winter, Umar Faruq Abdallah.

    This is a great book:

    https://www.amazon.com/Sufi-Saint-Twentieth-Century-al-Alawi/dp/0946621500

    This one is about Imam Ghazali (ra):

    https://www.amazon.com/Al-Ghazalis-Path-Sufism-Deliverance-al-Munqidh/dp/1887752307/

    The West knows him for his philosophical works – that’s not what made him the Imam Ghazali (ra) we know – he was one of the top scholars and minds of his time and he had a complete spiritual crisis when he realized that most scholars of his time (including himself) were only studying to get good positions in the judicial system or other worldly praise. He quit his job at the prestigious Nizamiyyah University and went on a journey to completely annihilate his ego – and at that point, he discovered what the Sufis had – that is why his books are in the house of almost every serious student of knowledge.

    Peace.

    For the record, I actually like anarchists and libertarians; I might not agree with everything they say, but I think they play a valuable role in putting societies’ feet to the fire to rationalize and prove out the legitimacy of state power especially when it makes a play for more.

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  139. avraham says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It could also be argued that apostates or blasphemers in Islam suffered a quick death compared to whatever local norms prevailed in the West – burned at the stake – not fun!
     
    West still burns "witches"? This is news to me, checked my calendar--13 July 2016. Meanwhile:

    http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/11/10/honor-killing-in-us-justice-department-mulls-guidelines-as-grim-toll-rises.html

    And this is US alone.

    Ur comments on this thread I find amazingly instructive– [and Tahla's also]. Thanks

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  140. Marcus says:

    Significant development?

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-confirms-key-leader-shishanis-death/

    His last name sounds Georgian, granted I don’t know anything about Chechen. ETA: his father was indeed a Georgian Christian, but his mother was a Muslim.

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    Hey Marcus,

    Shishaan means Chechen since the Arabs don't have a 'ch' sound in their language. The appellation of Shishaani is usually a catchphrase to designate anyone from the Caucasus in general.

    Significant development?
     
    You tell me, how many 'top' commanders of the Taliban did we keep eliminating until they finally stopped keeping track? This fight is only partially going to be won through force of arms and, I believe, we are doing it the wrong way. So sad that many Chechens have become extremists - they are such solid fighters.

    Peace.
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  141. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Significant development?
    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/is-confirms-key-leader-shishanis-death/
    His last name sounds Georgian, granted I don't know anything about Chechen. ETA: his father was indeed a Georgian Christian, but his mother was a Muslim.

    Hey Marcus,

    Shishaan means Chechen since the Arabs don’t have a ‘ch’ sound in their language. The appellation of Shishaani is usually a catchphrase to designate anyone from the Caucasus in general.

    Significant development?

    You tell me, how many ‘top’ commanders of the Taliban did we keep eliminating until they finally stopped keeping track? This fight is only partially going to be won through force of arms and, I believe, we are doing it the wrong way. So sad that many Chechens have become extremists – they are such solid fighters.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Thanks, yes fighters from the former USSR seem to be the "cream" of IS, though their communities are hardly known for hardline sentiments. I've read about Uzbeks being recruited even in the US.
    , @L.K
    Talha: "So sad that many Chechens have become extremists – they are such solid fighters"

    I'd say they are formidable fighters and yes, indeed a pity about the ones who converted to salafi/wahaabi nihilism... it seems the extremists form only a minority of the chechen population though?

    Badly outnumbered and outgunned they defeated the Russians in the first Chechen war.
    Luckily for Russia, many chechen fighters switched sides in the second war, the Kadyrov clan one of those, if memory serves.
    Then agains, Chechnya has a population of just over a million souls.

    Cheers

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  142. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Shishaan means Chechen since the Arabs don't have a 'ch' sound in their language. The appellation of Shishaani is usually a catchphrase to designate anyone from the Caucasus in general.

    Significant development?
     
    You tell me, how many 'top' commanders of the Taliban did we keep eliminating until they finally stopped keeping track? This fight is only partially going to be won through force of arms and, I believe, we are doing it the wrong way. So sad that many Chechens have become extremists - they are such solid fighters.

    Peace.

    Thanks, yes fighters from the former USSR seem to be the “cream” of IS, though their communities are hardly known for hardline sentiments. I’ve read about Uzbeks being recruited even in the US.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili, aka Omar al-Shishani, is a mix of Georgian and Chechen from an area in Georgia inhabited mostly by ethnic Chechens.

    It's being said by the zamericans he has been killed in Iraq but US media has claimed his death a hundred times already. Better wait...

    Fighters from Russia or the former USSR seem to have been always in high demand, not only by Daesh/isis, but also by Nusra and its affiliates.

    These pests have been tormenting Syria for a long time now.
    The following took place in 2013, i think;
    Saudi Commander in Jabhat al-Nusra Gives a Speech Before Aleppo Prison Attack, Asks ISIL to Join. The military commander is the black bearded chechen to his right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REf5L_Y1IK8

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854

    This is another well known Chechen field commander in Syria, he is been there since 2013 and has been reported KIA recently but this has not been confirmed i think.
    CHECHEN FIELD COMMANDER in Syria in 2013
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb2NOlETH-4

    Chechen Salafist militants in heavy combat against the Syrian army in Aleppo province, 2014:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5j2Mvvcbw

    Russia should really be thankful so many of these pests have been meeting their demise in Syria.
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  143. L.K says:
    @Marcus
    Thanks, yes fighters from the former USSR seem to be the "cream" of IS, though their communities are hardly known for hardline sentiments. I've read about Uzbeks being recruited even in the US.

    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili, aka Omar al-Shishani, is a mix of Georgian and Chechen from an area in Georgia inhabited mostly by ethnic Chechens.

    It’s being said by the zamericans he has been killed in Iraq but US media has claimed his death a hundred times already. Better wait…

    Fighters from Russia or the former USSR seem to have been always in high demand, not only by Daesh/isis, but also by Nusra and its affiliates.

    These pests have been tormenting Syria for a long time now.
    The following took place in 2013, i think;
    Saudi Commander in Jabhat al-Nusra Gives a Speech Before Aleppo Prison Attack, Asks ISIL to Join. The military commander is the black bearded chechen to his right.

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.

    This is another well known Chechen field commander in Syria, he is been there since 2013 and has been reported KIA recently but this has not been confirmed i think.
    CHECHEN FIELD COMMANDER in Syria in 2013

    Chechen Salafist militants in heavy combat against the Syrian army in Aleppo province, 2014:

    Russia should really be thankful so many of these pests have been meeting their demise in Syria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia. They're a very troublesome element even excluding jihadis. Kadyrov himself loudly proclaims his Islamic faith and brutally enforces "dress codes" for women while trying to oppose Salafist inroads, so he's walking a very fine line, but it "works" due to massive Russian funding and police-state repression.
    , @Marcus

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854
     
    Yeah they often employ "European" volunteers (converts and Muslim immigrants) as suicide bombers. Unfortunately Western governments are trying to prevent these volunteers from leaving for the caliphate

    In Belgium, I have drawn some attention with my defence of the Syria volunteers: young Muslims grown up in Brussels or Antwerp and going to fight for the Islamic State. Our politicians call them “monsters”, “crazy” and other derogatory names, but in fact they are pious idealists. They may be misguided in their beliefs, and I dare say they are, but they do have the courage of their conviction. Without any pressure on them, they volunteer for putting their lives on the line in the Syrian desert. You cannot deny them bravery and self-sacrifice.
     
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  144. L.K says:
    @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Shishaan means Chechen since the Arabs don't have a 'ch' sound in their language. The appellation of Shishaani is usually a catchphrase to designate anyone from the Caucasus in general.

    Significant development?
     
    You tell me, how many 'top' commanders of the Taliban did we keep eliminating until they finally stopped keeping track? This fight is only partially going to be won through force of arms and, I believe, we are doing it the wrong way. So sad that many Chechens have become extremists - they are such solid fighters.

    Peace.

    Talha: “So sad that many Chechens have become extremists – they are such solid fighters”

    I’d say they are formidable fighters and yes, indeed a pity about the ones who converted to salafi/wahaabi nihilism… it seems the extremists form only a minority of the chechen population though?

    Badly outnumbered and outgunned they defeated the Russians in the first Chechen war.
    Luckily for Russia, many chechen fighters switched sides in the second war, the Kadyrov clan one of those, if memory serves.
    Then agains, Chechnya has a population of just over a million souls.

    Cheers

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili
     
    OK - now I know why they are going by names like 'Omar the Chechen'... that one is a mouthful.

    And yes, Chechens took Islam at the hands of the Sufi shaykhs (either Naqshbandi or Qadiri). They are a very spiritual people and I hope they are able to stay true to their roots and avoid this Salafi/Wahhabi-extremism from spreading beyond just a minority - it is a cancer.


    This article (regarding developments in the second Chechen War) seems to be fairly on point (highlights):
    " But their activity came to naught due to the flat refusal by the majority of Chechens to recognize their ideology. The activity of these 'reformers' was viewed as hostile and alien to Chechens: it was considered anti-Islamic, as Sufism meant Islam to Chechens."
    "Sufis probably make up 90 to 95 percent of the population of Chechnya, but those numbers should not lead one to underestimate the threat posed by the radicals. Radicals, even though they represent a minority of 2-3 percent, are an active minority advancing their own interests not only in Chechnya, but also throughout the whole North Caucasus region. They have rigid discipline and large financial capabilities, but most importantly they know what they want: power."
    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=2875#.V4faZPkrLRY

    Peace.
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  145. Marcus says:
    @L.K
    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili, aka Omar al-Shishani, is a mix of Georgian and Chechen from an area in Georgia inhabited mostly by ethnic Chechens.

    It's being said by the zamericans he has been killed in Iraq but US media has claimed his death a hundred times already. Better wait...

    Fighters from Russia or the former USSR seem to have been always in high demand, not only by Daesh/isis, but also by Nusra and its affiliates.

    These pests have been tormenting Syria for a long time now.
    The following took place in 2013, i think;
    Saudi Commander in Jabhat al-Nusra Gives a Speech Before Aleppo Prison Attack, Asks ISIL to Join. The military commander is the black bearded chechen to his right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REf5L_Y1IK8

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854

    This is another well known Chechen field commander in Syria, he is been there since 2013 and has been reported KIA recently but this has not been confirmed i think.
    CHECHEN FIELD COMMANDER in Syria in 2013
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb2NOlETH-4

    Chechen Salafist militants in heavy combat against the Syrian army in Aleppo province, 2014:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5j2Mvvcbw

    Russia should really be thankful so many of these pests have been meeting their demise in Syria.

    Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia. They’re a very troublesome element even excluding jihadis. Kadyrov himself loudly proclaims his Islamic faith and brutally enforces “dress codes” for women while trying to oppose Salafist inroads, so he’s walking a very fine line, but it “works” due to massive Russian funding and police-state repression.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia.}

    Putin/Russia have no choice.
    After the defeat of Russian military in the first Chechen war, Chechnya had de facto independence. Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia. The announced goal was to create a "Caucasus Emirate".

    Left to their own devices, non of those regions - Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc - would represent a danger to RF. But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,....will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity. So Russia has no choice. Keep them in RF, so Moscow can control them. In any case, Kadyrov and his clan have come to realize it is better to be part of RF: they run Chechnya as they please; Moscow leaves them alone as long as they remain superficially loyal to Moscow, and Chechnya gets billions from Moscow. Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  146. Marcus says:
    @L.K
    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili, aka Omar al-Shishani, is a mix of Georgian and Chechen from an area in Georgia inhabited mostly by ethnic Chechens.

    It's being said by the zamericans he has been killed in Iraq but US media has claimed his death a hundred times already. Better wait...

    Fighters from Russia or the former USSR seem to have been always in high demand, not only by Daesh/isis, but also by Nusra and its affiliates.

    These pests have been tormenting Syria for a long time now.
    The following took place in 2013, i think;
    Saudi Commander in Jabhat al-Nusra Gives a Speech Before Aleppo Prison Attack, Asks ISIL to Join. The military commander is the black bearded chechen to his right.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REf5L_Y1IK8

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854

    This is another well known Chechen field commander in Syria, he is been there since 2013 and has been reported KIA recently but this has not been confirmed i think.
    CHECHEN FIELD COMMANDER in Syria in 2013
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eb2NOlETH-4

    Chechen Salafist militants in heavy combat against the Syrian army in Aleppo province, 2014:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2b5j2Mvvcbw

    Russia should really be thankful so many of these pests have been meeting their demise in Syria.

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854

    Yeah they often employ “European” volunteers (converts and Muslim immigrants) as suicide bombers. Unfortunately Western governments are trying to prevent these volunteers from leaving for the caliphate

    In Belgium, I have drawn some attention with my defence of the Syria volunteers: young Muslims grown up in Brussels or Antwerp and going to fight for the Islamic State. Our politicians call them “monsters”, “crazy” and other derogatory names, but in fact they are pious idealists. They may be misguided in their beliefs, and I dare say they are, but they do have the courage of their conviction. Without any pressure on them, they volunteer for putting their lives on the line in the Syrian desert. You cannot deny them bravery and self-sacrifice.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    I'm not sure what u are getting at here Marcus...

    The war in Syria, which then spilled over fragile Iraq, is a zionist driven project using ZUSA and its main allies in Europe and in the Middle East to prop up Wahaabi lunatics to overthrow the Syrian government.
    In Europe it is mainly Britain and France. The same duo that, together with Washington, destroyed Lybia before.

    Now if u believe that Western governments are really doing their best to stop European born volunteers to go join Nusra, Daesh & co, you are deluded.

    If, at the same time, you are suggesting that West.governments should freely allow these nutjobs to go torment and destroy Syria and Iraq, I find the notion quite repugnant.
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  147. Talha says:
    @L.K
    Talha: "So sad that many Chechens have become extremists – they are such solid fighters"

    I'd say they are formidable fighters and yes, indeed a pity about the ones who converted to salafi/wahaabi nihilism... it seems the extremists form only a minority of the chechen population though?

    Badly outnumbered and outgunned they defeated the Russians in the first Chechen war.
    Luckily for Russia, many chechen fighters switched sides in the second war, the Kadyrov clan one of those, if memory serves.
    Then agains, Chechnya has a population of just over a million souls.

    Cheers

    Tarkhan Tayumurazovich Batirashvili

    OK – now I know why they are going by names like ‘Omar the Chechen’… that one is a mouthful.

    And yes, Chechens took Islam at the hands of the Sufi shaykhs (either Naqshbandi or Qadiri). They are a very spiritual people and I hope they are able to stay true to their roots and avoid this Salafi/Wahhabi-extremism from spreading beyond just a minority – it is a cancer.

    This article (regarding developments in the second Chechen War) seems to be fairly on point (highlights):
    ” But their activity came to naught due to the flat refusal by the majority of Chechens to recognize their ideology. The activity of these ‘reformers’ was viewed as hostile and alien to Chechens: it was considered anti-Islamic, as Sufism meant Islam to Chechens.”
    “Sufis probably make up 90 to 95 percent of the population of Chechnya, but those numbers should not lead one to underestimate the threat posed by the radicals. Radicals, even though they represent a minority of 2-3 percent, are an active minority advancing their own interests not only in Chechnya, but also throughout the whole North Caucasus region. They have rigid discipline and large financial capabilities, but most importantly they know what they want: power.”

    http://www.jamestown.org/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=2875#.V4faZPkrLRY

    Peace.

    Read More
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  148. Avery says:

    Re Chechen warriors.

    Indeed, excellent fighters.
    One of their most legendary commanders, first famous then infamous*, Shamil Basayev, took his Chechen volunteer battalion to Shushi in Nagorno-Karabagh to support Azerbaijani squatters (…in the mistaken belief it was a Jihad-fight). When Armenians stormed Shushi (May 1992), the Turkbaijani Uyguroğlu nomad squatters fled. Chechen volunteers fought till the end and were the last to leave.

    Basayev would later remark that the only defeat he and his unit had suffered had been against the Armenians in Karabakh against the “Dashnak battalion.” (De Waal. Black Garden, p. 179. )

    —-
    * Basayev took credit for the Beslan school massacre of children.

    Read More
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  149. Avery says:
    @Marcus
    Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia. They're a very troublesome element even excluding jihadis. Kadyrov himself loudly proclaims his Islamic faith and brutally enforces "dress codes" for women while trying to oppose Salafist inroads, so he's walking a very fine line, but it "works" due to massive Russian funding and police-state repression.

    {Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia.}

    Putin/Russia have no choice.
    After the defeat of Russian military in the first Chechen war, Chechnya had de facto independence. Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia. The announced goal was to create a “Caucasus Emirate”.

    Left to their own devices, non of those regions – Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc – would represent a danger to RF. But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity. So Russia has no choice. Keep them in RF, so Moscow can control them. In any case, Kadyrov and his clan have come to realize it is better to be part of RF: they run Chechnya as they please; Moscow leaves them alone as long as they remain superficially loyal to Moscow, and Chechnya gets billions from Moscow. Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    They should at least try to keep Chechens in their own lands then, and not terrorizing the rest of Russia: the Chechen mafia is notorious, though one Russian I talked to said that Azeris are as bad or worse.
    , @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia.
     
    Yeah - this was a horrible miscalculation, I remember thinking "What are they thinking?" when I first read the news. Russia's worst miscalculation was assassinating Col. Dudayev (ra), he was a very reasonable and honorable man and would have been a fairly good neighbor to Russia.

    But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity.
     
    Don't think anybody can attack Russia with impunity, but, sure, I can see Neocons wanting to have missile bases there (for the Chechens protection, of course ;) ) and spy stations.

    Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.
     
    Moscow's been good to the Chechens thus far, but I think in the very long term, eventually I can see some kind of an independent Caucasus confederation (just due to very similar religious and ethno-linguistic bonds and maybe the Circassians can move back) - probably long after both of us are buried. It doesn't have to be forged in blood - might be a mutual parting, if Russia keeps dropping numbers, they may feel it is just not worth the effort in keeping these places as part of it. Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? You probably know that area better than I?

    Peace.

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  150. Marcus says:
    @Avery
    {Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia.}

    Putin/Russia have no choice.
    After the defeat of Russian military in the first Chechen war, Chechnya had de facto independence. Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia. The announced goal was to create a "Caucasus Emirate".

    Left to their own devices, non of those regions - Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc - would represent a danger to RF. But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,....will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity. So Russia has no choice. Keep them in RF, so Moscow can control them. In any case, Kadyrov and his clan have come to realize it is better to be part of RF: they run Chechnya as they please; Moscow leaves them alone as long as they remain superficially loyal to Moscow, and Chechnya gets billions from Moscow. Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.

    They should at least try to keep Chechens in their own lands then, and not terrorizing the rest of Russia: the Chechen mafia is notorious, though one Russian I talked to said that Azeris are as bad or worse.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Nonsense. Chechnya is part of Russia and as such Chechens have citizenship & can, as they should, be able to move troughout the country.
    Anyway, what about the Russian mafia?
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  151. Talha says:
    @Avery
    {Putin is playing with fire by keeping Chechnya in Russia.}

    Putin/Russia have no choice.
    After the defeat of Russian military in the first Chechen war, Chechnya had de facto independence. Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia. The announced goal was to create a "Caucasus Emirate".

    Left to their own devices, non of those regions - Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc - would represent a danger to RF. But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,....will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity. So Russia has no choice. Keep them in RF, so Moscow can control them. In any case, Kadyrov and his clan have come to realize it is better to be part of RF: they run Chechnya as they please; Moscow leaves them alone as long as they remain superficially loyal to Moscow, and Chechnya gets billions from Moscow. Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.

    Hey Avery,

    Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia.

    Yeah – this was a horrible miscalculation, I remember thinking “What are they thinking?” when I first read the news. Russia’s worst miscalculation was assassinating Col. Dudayev (ra), he was a very reasonable and honorable man and would have been a fairly good neighbor to Russia.

    But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity.

    Don’t think anybody can attack Russia with impunity, but, sure, I can see Neocons wanting to have missile bases there (for the Chechens protection, of course ;) ) and spy stations.

    Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.

    Moscow’s been good to the Chechens thus far, but I think in the very long term, eventually I can see some kind of an independent Caucasus confederation (just due to very similar religious and ethno-linguistic bonds and maybe the Circassians can move back) – probably long after both of us are buried. It doesn’t have to be forged in blood – might be a mutual parting, if Russia keeps dropping numbers, they may feel it is just not worth the effort in keeping these places as part of it. Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? You probably know that area better than I?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Apparently parts of Grozny now look as opulent as any great city, the cost to Russian taxpayers must be astronomical http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-glittering-new-face-of-the-once-war-torn-capital-of-chechnya-2012-2
    , @Avery
    {Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? }


    No: not raw materials.
    Russia has an abundance of raw materials elsewhere: there is nothing in Chechnya or, any of its Southern Russia/North Caucasus republics raw materials-wise that Russia needs.

    It is geostrategic location.

    Long history, but if Russia loses its presence in its South, over time it will lose the Volga region (...also Siberia) and revert back to something similar to the Grand Duchy of Muscovy.
    , @L.K
    Talha,

    Basically, it's Geopolitics;

    F. William Engdahl has written extensively on this. A little from one of his articles on the subject:

    ...They were called Afghan Arabs because they had been recruited from ultraconservative Wahhabite Sunni Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and elsewhere in the Arab world where the ultra-strict Wahhabite Islam was practiced. They were brought to Afghanistan in the early 1980’s by a Saudi CIA recruit who had been sent to Afghanistan named Osama bin Laden.

    With the former Soviet Union in total chaos and disarray, George H.W. Bush’s Administration decided to “kick ‘em when they’re down,” a sad error. Washington redeployed their Afghan veteran terrorists to bring chaos and destabilize all of Central Asia, even into the Russian Federation itself, then in a deep and traumatic crisis during the economic collapse of the Yeltsin era.

    In the early 1990s, Dick Cheney’s company, Halliburton, had surveyed the offshore oil potentials of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and the entire Caspian Sea Basin. They estimated the region to be “another Saudi Arabia” worth several trillion dollars on today’s market. The US and UK were determined to keep that oil bonanza from Russian control by all means. The first target of Washington was to stage a coup in Azerbaijan against elected president Abulfaz Elchibey to install a President more friendly to a US-controlled Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, “the world’s most political pipeline,” bringing Baku oil from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey and the Mediterranean.

    At that time, the only existing oil pipeline from Baku was a Soviet era Russian pipeline that ran through the Chechen capital, Grozny, taking Baku oil north via Russia’s Dagestan province, and across Chechenya to the Black Sea Russian port of Novorossiysk. The pipeline was the only competition and major obstacle to the very costly alternative route of Washington and the British and US oil majors.

    President Bush Sr. gave his old friends at CIA the mandate to destroy that Russian Chechen pipeline and create such chaos in the Caucasus that no Western or Russian company would consider using the Grozny Russian oil pipeline.

    Graham E. Fuller, an old colleague of Bush and former Deputy Director of the CIA National Council on Intelligence had been a key architect of the CIA Mujahideen strategy. Fuller described the CIA strategy in the Caucasus in the early 1990s: “The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Red Army. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian."

    Chechnya then was traditionally a predominantly Sufi society, a mild apolitical branch of Islam. Yet the increasing infiltration of the well-financed and well-trained US-sponsored Mujahideen terrorists preaching Jihad or Holy War against Russians transformed the initially reformist Chechen resistance movement. They spread al-Qaeda’s hardline Islamist ideology across the Caucasus. Under Secord’s guidance, Mujahideen terrorist operations had also quickly extended into neighboring Dagestan and Chechnya, turning Baku into a shipping point for Afghan heroin to the Chechen mafia.

    From the mid-1990s, bin Laden paid Chechen guerrilla leaders Shamil Basayev and Omar ibn al-Khattab the handsome sum of several million dollars per month, a King’s fortune in economically desolate Chechnya in the 1990s, enabling them to sideline the moderate Chechen majority.21 US intelligence remained deeply involved in the Chechen conflict until the end of the 1990s. According to Yossef Bodansky, then Director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, Washington was actively involved in “yet another anti-Russian jihad, seeking to support and empower the most virulent anti-Western Islamist forces.”

    Bodansky revealed the entire CIA Caucasus strategy in detail in his report, stating that US Government officials participated in:

    “a formal meeting in Azerbaijan in December 1999 in which specific programs for the training and equipping of Mujahideen from the Caucasus, Central/South Asia and the Arab world were discussed and agreed upon, culminating in Washington’s tacit encouragement of both Muslim allies (mainly Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia) and US ‘private security companies’. . . to assist the Chechens and their Islamist allies to surge in the spring of 2000 and sustain the ensuing Jihad for a long time…Islamist Jihad in the Caucasus as a way to deprive Russia of a viable pipeline route through spiraling violence and terrorism.”
     
    Worth reading it all
    http://journal-neo.org/2015/05/15/what-if-putin-is-telling-the-truth/
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  152. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia.
     
    Yeah - this was a horrible miscalculation, I remember thinking "What are they thinking?" when I first read the news. Russia's worst miscalculation was assassinating Col. Dudayev (ra), he was a very reasonable and honorable man and would have been a fairly good neighbor to Russia.

    But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity.
     
    Don't think anybody can attack Russia with impunity, but, sure, I can see Neocons wanting to have missile bases there (for the Chechens protection, of course ;) ) and spy stations.

    Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.
     
    Moscow's been good to the Chechens thus far, but I think in the very long term, eventually I can see some kind of an independent Caucasus confederation (just due to very similar religious and ethno-linguistic bonds and maybe the Circassians can move back) - probably long after both of us are buried. It doesn't have to be forged in blood - might be a mutual parting, if Russia keeps dropping numbers, they may feel it is just not worth the effort in keeping these places as part of it. Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? You probably know that area better than I?

    Peace.

    Apparently parts of Grozny now look as opulent as any great city, the cost to Russian taxpayers must be astronomical http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-glittering-new-face-of-the-once-war-torn-capital-of-chechnya-2012-2

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Marcus,

    Probably all from the oil revenue Russia was making when prices were so high a few years ago. And yes, quite amazing considering Grozny looked like Stalingrad for a while. This is another threat to the traditional Chechen way of life though, less than the Wahhabi threat, but I would hate for them to get all materialistic and decadent and 'go soft' - that's also very un-Chechen.

    "God created Arrakis to train the faithful." - Dune

    Peace.
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  153. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Apparently parts of Grozny now look as opulent as any great city, the cost to Russian taxpayers must be astronomical http://www.businessinsider.com.au/the-glittering-new-face-of-the-once-war-torn-capital-of-chechnya-2012-2

    Hey Marcus,

    Probably all from the oil revenue Russia was making when prices were so high a few years ago. And yes, quite amazing considering Grozny looked like Stalingrad for a while. This is another threat to the traditional Chechen way of life though, less than the Wahhabi threat, but I would hate for them to get all materialistic and decadent and ‘go soft’ – that’s also very un-Chechen.

    “God created Arrakis to train the faithful.” – Dune

    Peace.

    Read More
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  154. Avery says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia.
     
    Yeah - this was a horrible miscalculation, I remember thinking "What are they thinking?" when I first read the news. Russia's worst miscalculation was assassinating Col. Dudayev (ra), he was a very reasonable and honorable man and would have been a fairly good neighbor to Russia.

    But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity.
     
    Don't think anybody can attack Russia with impunity, but, sure, I can see Neocons wanting to have missile bases there (for the Chechens protection, of course ;) ) and spy stations.

    Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.
     
    Moscow's been good to the Chechens thus far, but I think in the very long term, eventually I can see some kind of an independent Caucasus confederation (just due to very similar religious and ethno-linguistic bonds and maybe the Circassians can move back) - probably long after both of us are buried. It doesn't have to be forged in blood - might be a mutual parting, if Russia keeps dropping numbers, they may feel it is just not worth the effort in keeping these places as part of it. Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? You probably know that area better than I?

    Peace.

    {Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? }

    No: not raw materials.
    Russia has an abundance of raw materials elsewhere: there is nothing in Chechnya or, any of its Southern Russia/North Caucasus republics raw materials-wise that Russia needs.

    It is geostrategic location.

    Long history, but if Russia loses its presence in its South, over time it will lose the Volga region (…also Siberia) and revert back to something similar to the Grand Duchy of Muscovy.

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  155. Umar Shishani might have been a Kist – they are an Ingush tribe that live in the Pankisi Gorge in Georgia. They are all Vainach people (Kists, Ingush and Chechens / Shishani). Some of them must have fled from Chechnya, but some must have been indigenous to the Pankisi region. I also suspect that the Georgians could’ve attempted to Georgianize the Kist thus many of them have Georgian last names. There is also intermarriage – it seems that Umar Shishani’s mother was a Kist and the father a Georgian. So he is not fully Muslim, but half Christian. There is a whole bunch of Kists and Chechens that changed their names to (this or that) Shishani to fight in Syria. A guy like Umar Shishani is probably better off gone (is he dead or no after all?) but the fate of other Kists, especially very young men, that went to Syria is very tragic. They are quite beautiful people too, many of them grey eyed with light brown hair. There have been Wahhabi recruiters going into the Pankisi Gorge. Quite sad, given that those people have traditionally been Sufis.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    What's terrifying is that the US is still tacitly approving of the tremendous Saudi propaganda effort throughout the former USSR. Robert Baer (ex-CIA) wrote about this a while back, but was pressured into withholding some information. http://blackbag.gawker.com/i-find-this-approximately-as-convincing-as-blaming-fran-1631256070 (go to the "US policy in Chechnya" section)
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  156. To be honest, from the rational point of view, one can understand why some of them are turning to Wahhabism, because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided. There are still no investigations about that. They didn’t have any allies. So they turned to the caliphate – all these Shishani factions (that by the way try to stay “independent” of ISIS) is their “foreign policy” because if they can establish the Caucasus emirates, they could have independence from Russia. I hope there is no civil war there in the future.

    And, by the way, a real shahid is someone exactly like these Shishani who fight a war and die in a war, not blow themselves up with a shahid belt. As far as I know (and I might be wrong) Islam doesn’t allow one to decide his time of death.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided.}

    Oh please.

    Do you even know what the word 'Genocide' means?
    If Russians wanted to, quote, "genocide" (sic) Chechens, nothing would be left of Chechnya other than a radioactive wasteland.

    There were CIA/MI6/Saudi Arabia/Tukey supported Chechen Islamist terrorists who wanted to create an Islamist Caucasus caliphate. Russia fought, and eventually defeated them.
    In case you have forgotten, Chechens themselves - Kadyrov's men - were the most effective and brutal killers of Islamist Chechen terrorists. And the fact that Moscow has spent $ billions to completely rebuild Chechnya, and lets Chechens run their land pretty much as they see fit - as long as Islamists are suppressed - is proof there was no intent to, quote, "genocide" (sic) the Chechens.

    During the days of Tsarist Russia, when Russians could have easily wiped out every last Chechen, there was no attempt at genocide: Imperial control; yes. No genocide.

    So stop your anti-Russian proselytizing and spread of anti-Russian hate.

    , @Avery
    [Latvian Nazi veterans join controversial annual march]
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/latvias-nazi-veterans-join-controversial-annual-march/

    Latvian woman: please lookup the real, actual genocide of Jews (and Slavs) by Nazis and their Latvian Nazi collaborators before you falsely accuse Russians of, quote, "genociding" anyone.

    , @Talha
    Dear LW,

    If you are talking about the first Chechen war, then I would have to agree with Avery - Russia hit Chechnya with a hammer, but nothing like a genocide happened. If you are talking the history of Russia in the Caucasus, then the Circassian genocide should be well known to anybody with a grip of history in that region (of course, in the 1800's - 'population removal' was all the rage [America, Turkey, etc.]) as well as Stalin hauling off practically all of the Chechen population (to their credit, they allowed them to come back in the 60's).

    But the first Chechen war was successful from a political standpoint, it was not a good idea to sign up for a Wahhabi-extremist vision to establish an Emirate militarily when it may have been possible to get a long-term political solution with patience and organization.

    As far as the shaheed, one can't just fight and die and be considered a shaheed; for instance, if you break into someone's house to steal their stuff and die in a shootout with the owner - this is not legitimate. Daesh would be considered bughat (rebels, and not legitimate ones at that) so their claims to a righteous cause are rejected.

    And yes, their is a difference of opinion on the whole suicide operations, but the majority of traditional scholars I have come across indeed condemn it (if interested in juristic underpinnings):
    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.
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  157. L.K says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Instead of minding their own business, Chechen Islamists invaded neighboring Ingushetia.
     
    Yeah - this was a horrible miscalculation, I remember thinking "What are they thinking?" when I first read the news. Russia's worst miscalculation was assassinating Col. Dudayev (ra), he was a very reasonable and honorable man and would have been a fairly good neighbor to Russia.

    But they will not be independent: US, Neocons, NATO, Turkey,….will establish bases there and attack Russia with impunity.
     
    Don't think anybody can attack Russia with impunity, but, sure, I can see Neocons wanting to have missile bases there (for the Chechens protection, of course ;) ) and spy stations.

    Moscow built what is called the largest mosque in the region in Grozny.
     
    Moscow's been good to the Chechens thus far, but I think in the very long term, eventually I can see some kind of an independent Caucasus confederation (just due to very similar religious and ethno-linguistic bonds and maybe the Circassians can move back) - probably long after both of us are buried. It doesn't have to be forged in blood - might be a mutual parting, if Russia keeps dropping numbers, they may feel it is just not worth the effort in keeping these places as part of it. Does Russia gain any benefit from the Caucasus region? Products, raw materials, high tax yield (yeah right!), anything? Thoughts? You probably know that area better than I?

    Peace.

    Talha,

    Basically, it’s Geopolitics;

    F. William Engdahl has written extensively on this. A little from one of his articles on the subject:

    [MORE]

    …They were called Afghan Arabs because they had been recruited from ultraconservative Wahhabite Sunni Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and elsewhere in the Arab world where the ultra-strict Wahhabite Islam was practiced. They were brought to Afghanistan in the early 1980’s by a Saudi CIA recruit who had been sent to Afghanistan named Osama bin Laden.

    With the former Soviet Union in total chaos and disarray, George H.W. Bush’s Administration decided to “kick ‘em when they’re down,” a sad error. Washington redeployed their Afghan veteran terrorists to bring chaos and destabilize all of Central Asia, even into the Russian Federation itself, then in a deep and traumatic crisis during the economic collapse of the Yeltsin era.

    In the early 1990s, Dick Cheney’s company, Halliburton, had surveyed the offshore oil potentials of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and the entire Caspian Sea Basin. They estimated the region to be “another Saudi Arabia” worth several trillion dollars on today’s market. The US and UK were determined to keep that oil bonanza from Russian control by all means. The first target of Washington was to stage a coup in Azerbaijan against elected president Abulfaz Elchibey to install a President more friendly to a US-controlled Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, “the world’s most political pipeline,” bringing Baku oil from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey and the Mediterranean.

    At that time, the only existing oil pipeline from Baku was a Soviet era Russian pipeline that ran through the Chechen capital, Grozny, taking Baku oil north via Russia’s Dagestan province, and across Chechenya to the Black Sea Russian port of Novorossiysk. The pipeline was the only competition and major obstacle to the very costly alternative route of Washington and the British and US oil majors.

    President Bush Sr. gave his old friends at CIA the mandate to destroy that Russian Chechen pipeline and create such chaos in the Caucasus that no Western or Russian company would consider using the Grozny Russian oil pipeline.

    Graham E. Fuller, an old colleague of Bush and former Deputy Director of the CIA National Council on Intelligence had been a key architect of the CIA Mujahideen strategy. Fuller described the CIA strategy in the Caucasus in the early 1990s: “The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Red Army. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian.”

    Chechnya then was traditionally a predominantly Sufi society, a mild apolitical branch of Islam. Yet the increasing infiltration of the well-financed and well-trained US-sponsored Mujahideen terrorists preaching Jihad or Holy War against Russians transformed the initially reformist Chechen resistance movement. They spread al-Qaeda’s hardline Islamist ideology across the Caucasus. Under Secord’s guidance, Mujahideen terrorist operations had also quickly extended into neighboring Dagestan and Chechnya, turning Baku into a shipping point for Afghan heroin to the Chechen mafia.

    From the mid-1990s, bin Laden paid Chechen guerrilla leaders Shamil Basayev and Omar ibn al-Khattab the handsome sum of several million dollars per month, a King’s fortune in economically desolate Chechnya in the 1990s, enabling them to sideline the moderate Chechen majority.21 US intelligence remained deeply involved in the Chechen conflict until the end of the 1990s. According to Yossef Bodansky, then Director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, Washington was actively involved in “yet another anti-Russian jihad, seeking to support and empower the most virulent anti-Western Islamist forces.”

    Bodansky revealed the entire CIA Caucasus strategy in detail in his report, stating that US Government officials participated in:

    “a formal meeting in Azerbaijan in December 1999 in which specific programs for the training and equipping of Mujahideen from the Caucasus, Central/South Asia and the Arab world were discussed and agreed upon, culminating in Washington’s tacit encouragement of both Muslim allies (mainly Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia) and US ‘private security companies’. . . to assist the Chechens and their Islamist allies to surge in the spring of 2000 and sustain the ensuing Jihad for a long time…Islamist Jihad in the Caucasus as a way to deprive Russia of a viable pipeline route through spiraling violence and terrorism.”

    Worth reading it all

    http://journal-neo.org/2015/05/15/what-if-putin-is-telling-the-truth/

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey LK,

    Wow! Great reference. I had always had my hunches, but it is good to see something validating in black and white - thanks!

    This reminds me that it has been a while since I voiced my opposition to my representatives regarding our Syria policy' it's time to make a couple of calls.

    Peace.
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  158. L.K says:
    @Marcus
    They should at least try to keep Chechens in their own lands then, and not terrorizing the rest of Russia: the Chechen mafia is notorious, though one Russian I talked to said that Azeris are as bad or worse.

    Nonsense. Chechnya is part of Russia and as such Chechens have citizenship & can, as they should, be able to move troughout the country.
    Anyway, what about the Russian mafia?

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  159. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    Umar Shishani might have been a Kist - they are an Ingush tribe that live in the Pankisi Gorge in Georgia. They are all Vainach people (Kists, Ingush and Chechens / Shishani). Some of them must have fled from Chechnya, but some must have been indigenous to the Pankisi region. I also suspect that the Georgians could've attempted to Georgianize the Kist thus many of them have Georgian last names. There is also intermarriage - it seems that Umar Shishani's mother was a Kist and the father a Georgian. So he is not fully Muslim, but half Christian. There is a whole bunch of Kists and Chechens that changed their names to (this or that) Shishani to fight in Syria. A guy like Umar Shishani is probably better off gone (is he dead or no after all?) but the fate of other Kists, especially very young men, that went to Syria is very tragic. They are quite beautiful people too, many of them grey eyed with light brown hair. There have been Wahhabi recruiters going into the Pankisi Gorge. Quite sad, given that those people have traditionally been Sufis.

    What’s terrifying is that the US is still tacitly approving of the tremendous Saudi propaganda effort throughout the former USSR. Robert Baer (ex-CIA) wrote about this a while back, but was pressured into withholding some information. http://blackbag.gawker.com/i-find-this-approximately-as-convincing-as-blaming-fran-1631256070 (go to the “US policy in Chechnya” section)

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  160. L.K says:
    @Marcus

    The following operation against the central prison, one of many dozens(all failed), employed a Brit Pakistani as a suicide bomber in a VBIED, then an armored/infantry(lots of chechens) push was made. It failed with heavy losses and the chechen commander was killled at the end.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DM96XaOJ854
     
    Yeah they often employ "European" volunteers (converts and Muslim immigrants) as suicide bombers. Unfortunately Western governments are trying to prevent these volunteers from leaving for the caliphate

    In Belgium, I have drawn some attention with my defence of the Syria volunteers: young Muslims grown up in Brussels or Antwerp and going to fight for the Islamic State. Our politicians call them “monsters”, “crazy” and other derogatory names, but in fact they are pious idealists. They may be misguided in their beliefs, and I dare say they are, but they do have the courage of their conviction. Without any pressure on them, they volunteer for putting their lives on the line in the Syrian desert. You cannot deny them bravery and self-sacrifice.
     

    I’m not sure what u are getting at here Marcus…

    The war in Syria, which then spilled over fragile Iraq, is a zionist driven project using ZUSA and its main allies in Europe and in the Middle East to prop up Wahaabi lunatics to overthrow the Syrian government.
    In Europe it is mainly Britain and France. The same duo that, together with Washington, destroyed Lybia before.

    Now if u believe that Western governments are really doing their best to stop European born volunteers to go join Nusra, Daesh & co, you are deluded.

    If, at the same time, you are suggesting that West.governments should freely allow these nutjobs to go torment and destroy Syria and Iraq, I find the notion quite repugnant.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    I wouldn't call them nutjobs, they are just idealistic youths. I want them (and Muslims in general) to return their ancestral countries, yes. Of course I also want us to stop meddling in those countries, so it's a two way street.
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  161. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    To be honest, from the rational point of view, one can understand why some of them are turning to Wahhabism, because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided. There are still no investigations about that. They didn't have any allies. So they turned to the caliphate - all these Shishani factions (that by the way try to stay "independent" of ISIS) is their "foreign policy" because if they can establish the Caucasus emirates, they could have independence from Russia. I hope there is no civil war there in the future.

    And, by the way, a real shahid is someone exactly like these Shishani who fight a war and die in a war, not blow themselves up with a shahid belt. As far as I know (and I might be wrong) Islam doesn't allow one to decide his time of death.

    {because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided.}

    Oh please.

    Do you even know what the word ‘Genocide’ means?
    If Russians wanted to, quote, “genocide” (sic) Chechens, nothing would be left of Chechnya other than a radioactive wasteland.

    There were CIA/MI6/Saudi Arabia/Tukey supported Chechen Islamist terrorists who wanted to create an Islamist Caucasus caliphate. Russia fought, and eventually defeated them.
    In case you have forgotten, Chechens themselves – Kadyrov’s men – were the most effective and brutal killers of Islamist Chechen terrorists. And the fact that Moscow has spent $ billions to completely rebuild Chechnya, and lets Chechens run their land pretty much as they see fit – as long as Islamists are suppressed – is proof there was no intent to, quote, “genocide” (sic) the Chechens.

    During the days of Tsarist Russia, when Russians could have easily wiped out every last Chechen, there was no attempt at genocide: Imperial control; yes. No genocide.

    So stop your anti-Russian proselytizing and spread of anti-Russian hate.

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  162. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    To be honest, from the rational point of view, one can understand why some of them are turning to Wahhabism, because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided. There are still no investigations about that. They didn't have any allies. So they turned to the caliphate - all these Shishani factions (that by the way try to stay "independent" of ISIS) is their "foreign policy" because if they can establish the Caucasus emirates, they could have independence from Russia. I hope there is no civil war there in the future.

    And, by the way, a real shahid is someone exactly like these Shishani who fight a war and die in a war, not blow themselves up with a shahid belt. As far as I know (and I might be wrong) Islam doesn't allow one to decide his time of death.

    [Latvian Nazi veterans join controversial annual march]

    http://www.timesofisrael.com/latvias-nazi-veterans-join-controversial-annual-march/

    Latvian woman: please lookup the real, actual genocide of Jews (and Slavs) by Nazis and their Latvian Nazi collaborators before you falsely accuse Russians of, quote, “genociding” anyone.

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  163. Marcus, this is just the sort of thing CIA does all over the world. Approving maybe, but they are not the reason why some Chechens are radicalizing. The reason is lack of support during the wars in Chechnya (the world looked on as they were destroyed and frankly we have missed that opportunity to help them as we were too cowardly), to some extent even oppression of their identity, I’d say, lack of “normal allies”, lack of opportunities (the Pankisi Gorge has 90% unemployment, by Western standards, at least). A shahid identity is much more appealing for Chechen men in these circumstances than other options. What is worrisome, though, for such small people as Kists (an Ingush sub-group) this kind of stuff might be damaging to their gene pool given their small numbers.

    And speaking of CIA / US… one of the Shishani fighters in Syria, Muslim Shishani (the Kist that was mentioned in the article you linked, from Pankisi it seems, also red bearded and less cray cray than Umar Shishani) made a comparison to cow herding: “When you (as a small people) are under the Russian “umbrella”, they won’t allow you to let your cows graze where they want, as much as they want, they (the Russians) will take all the milk and there will not be enough to feed your children, they won’t let you speak your own language and have your own customs. But when you are attacked from outside, they will always come to your aid and defend you. Under Americans / The West, you can feed your cattle well and once they collect their share, there is still enough to feed the calves. They will not oppress you as much. But when you need defense, they may or may not come to your aid”. Nice choice, uh?

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  164. L.K says:

    People who paint with a broad brush a huge slice of mankind, in this case Muslims, as basically low IQ retards and fanatics incapable of modern civilization, are generally ignorant, biased, or both.

    For one thing, Muslims span from Europeans, such as Bosniaks, all the way to Asians, such as Indonesians.

    One should also remember that there are still several European countries which cannot be considered as “first world”, and other countries that are today developed, were undeveloped only af few decades ago.

    South Korea, 60 years ago, was a third world country. As it started development, it went through a phase when it mostly made copies of Japanese products. Not anymore.

    The Economist, not exactly a friend of Iran’s, ran an article a while ago about the country, despite the obvious and predictable spin, it contains interesting info:

    [MORE]

    …Yet although revolutionary fervour has waned, Iran’s 1979 revolution itself remains a source of legitimacy for the regime. Many Iranians, or at least the ethnic Persian majority among them, continue to associate it with national liberation from foreign oppression. Not being Arab, Turkic or South Asian, they feel friendless among their neighbours. This is vital to understanding Iranian foreign policy and helps explain why the nuclear programme enjoys widespread popular support despite the pain that the sanctions have inflicted. Many regard it as a symbol of national strength at a time of perplexing social changes. This special report will examine the effect of those changes on Iran’s politics, its economy and its place in the world.
    Hardliners have long railed against “Westoxification” (the title of a book by Jalal Al-e Ahmad, published in 1962), yet in their daily lives they are now surrounded by Western consumer goods, computer games, beauty ideals, gender roles and many other influences. Iranian culture has not disappeared, but the traditional society envisaged by the fathers of the revolution is receding ever further.
    The most visible shift is in public infrastructure. Tehran, the capital, is a tangle of new tunnels, bridges, overpasses, elevated roads and pedestrian walkways. Shiny towers rise in large numbers, despite the sanctions. Screens at bus stops display schedules in real time. Jack Straw, a former British foreign minister and a regular visitor, says that “Tehran looks and feels these days more like Madrid and Athens than Mumbai or Cairo.”
    Smaller Iranian cities have changed even more. Tabriz, Shiraz and Isfahan are working on underground railways. Half the traditional bathhouses in Qazvin, an industrial town west of Tehran, have closed in recent years. In a basement with a domed ceiling built 350 years ago, the forlorn manager sweeps around two kittens and bemoans the loss of a 700-year-old competitor, musing that “people now have bathrooms with hot running water.” In Yalayesh, a remote village near the Caspian sea, entertainment remains old-fashioned: a Kurdish strongman, Ismail the Hero, shows off a lion in a cage on the back of his blue truck. Still, two years ago the government finished piping natural gas into every house, making winters with temperatures of -20ºC “tolerable for the first time”, says a spectator.
    During the eight-year presidency of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, which ended in 2013, prosperity spread rapidly. Loans, handouts and social-housing programmes, however corrupt and ineptly run, showered billions of oil dollars on the poor. Many found white-collar jobs in government agencies. The middle class ballooned. Villagers streamed into Tehran to buy property as GDP per person rose from $4,400 in 1993 to $13,200 last year (at purchasing-power parity). Despite the sanctions, Iran does not look like beleaguered Cuba; people drive new sedans made locally, not 1950s Chevrolets. Life became harder when sanctions were tightened in 2011, but even now Iranians live much better than most of their neighbours.
    Prosperity has inspired an obsession with technology that restrictions on internet access cannot dampen.
    Facebook is the primary medium for half the country’s youth and Twitter is used by officials to put out statements—never mind that both are banned. Freedom House, an American human-rights lobby, ranks Iran last in the world in terms of internet freedom, but in reality access is cheap and fast. (The fastest speeds are achieved near seminaries, since clerics preach online and get priority on fibre-optic cables.)
    ….
    The hunger for free information is fuelled by rising education levels, which are now comparable to those in Western countries. In 2009, 34% of Iranians in the relevant age group went to university. Three years later the number had gone up to 55% and is said to have climbed further since then, mostly thanks to the huge expansion of Azad University, which now has over 100 campuses and 1.5m students.… According to SCImago, a Spanish firm that monitors academic journals, Iran’s scientific output has increased by 575% in the past decade. The country also publishes three times more books than all Arab nations combined.
    The vastly expanded education system, which makes particular efforts to reach poor and rural families, has acted as a catalyst for independent thinking. The art world has opened up. Film scripts still require approval, but religious themes have faded. Culture is no longer a mere propaganda tool.

    …After the revolution the birth rate soared, but as Iranians became more prosperous and educated it started falling and eventually dropped below pre-revolution levels. The size of the population has doubled since the 1980s but the number of births has halved. There are no reliable figures, but experts put it at 1.6-1.9 children per woman, broadly in line with European rates. In neighbouring Iraq it is 3.5.

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  165. Avery,

    Kadyrov doesn’t represent all Chechens. And it’s easy to live with all that money he gets from “Allah” (I don’t know why he calls Putin “Allah”). How much is it really? The annual Russian subsidy to Chechnya, does anyone know?

    Avery, let’s not start the whole “Nazi” discussion again, it could take a day. If you want to know my personal stance, I hate what the Germans did (they put the Latvian president’s son in a concentration camp, btw), I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes whose relatives had been brutalized by the Russians and who were led by a half-Latvian, half-German collaborationist did to the Belorussians) and if any Belorussians are reading this – I deeply apologize to them for that and want them to know that my heart aches for that.

    But that doesn’t justify what was done to the Chechen people.

    Just because Russia didn’t create a nuclear wasteland in Chechnya, doesn’t mean they didn’t cull clans and clans of Chechens. I’m also very interested as to the status of the Chechen language these days (all the Kadyrov flags and slogans are in Russian and Cyrillic is used – how come they’re not using Latin or their own script like the Georgians are).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Chechens "won" more than the Russians as a people did, they have a very privileged place in Putin's regime (see per capita spending on them compared to other nationalities) and are free to terrorize their "fellow citizens" while Russian nationalists are jailed.
    , @Avery
    {Kadyrov doesn’t represent all Chechens.}

    Of course not. No elected leader does. I don't know any democratically elected leader in the West who represents all of their constituents. In any US presidential election, the vote is roughly equal, meaning about 49% of the US citizens are against the POTUS who was elected by the other 51%. How is that different for Kadyrov? Is it because your favourite radical Islamist terrorists are not in charge?

    And looks like a lot of Chechens support Kadyrov and Putin.
    [100,000 People Attend Putin Birthday Parade in Grozny (Video]
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/100-000-people-attend-putin-birthday-parade-in-grozny/508539.html


    {....I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes ....}
    A couple of hundred? who are you kidding, yourself?

    {Avery, let’s not start the whole “Nazi” discussion again, it could take a day}
    No, let's.
    You are not shy about falsely accusing Russians of, quote, "genociding" (sic).
    But you don't want to start the whole "Nazi" thing?
    Why is that? Because you know your Latvian kin voluntarily and enthusiastically participated in the genocide of Jews and Slavic people, so you want to sweep it under the rug - is that it?
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  166. Talha, judging from the Russian social media sites that I have peeked at, you might be right: there are radical Muslim Kist, Ingush and Chechen profiles that convey the kind of values I mentioned above – faith, loyalty, family, selflessness (and a good dose of fundamentalism, of course), and on the other side – the Kadyrov’s young generation of Chechens – some of them, while very attractive people, are very vain, affluent, the women very exhibitionist (tight clothing, duck face, etc), although I’d say, they still seem very romantic (it seems their eventual goal is love and family (monogamous or sometimes polygamous)). It might spur a debate about what is or isn’t “Chechen” or “un-Chechen” (if we as outsiders are in any position to define that). Don’t get me wrong – I like the Kadyrov’s kids, too, I like that they’re doing well, that they can celebrate the end of Ramadan sitting by beautifully clad tables – I really wish them prosperity.

    But it is such a contrast with a young Kist boy from Pankisi who calls himself the “Warrior of Allah” and dies at age 18 or 20 in Syria while fighting Kurds (or maybe in an American or Russian airstrike).

    For some odd reason that seems much more admirable, even though it’s a loss for his people.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I agree, the bravery is indeed admirable (as an isolated quality), but they have devoted themselves to a horrible cause - there is no honor in what they are doing.

    I do hope (like you) this next generation of Chechens is able strike the right balance between the best part of their tradition and the technological revolution they are witnessing.

    Peace.
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  167. Marcus says:
    @L.K
    I'm not sure what u are getting at here Marcus...

    The war in Syria, which then spilled over fragile Iraq, is a zionist driven project using ZUSA and its main allies in Europe and in the Middle East to prop up Wahaabi lunatics to overthrow the Syrian government.
    In Europe it is mainly Britain and France. The same duo that, together with Washington, destroyed Lybia before.

    Now if u believe that Western governments are really doing their best to stop European born volunteers to go join Nusra, Daesh & co, you are deluded.

    If, at the same time, you are suggesting that West.governments should freely allow these nutjobs to go torment and destroy Syria and Iraq, I find the notion quite repugnant.

    I wouldn’t call them nutjobs, they are just idealistic youths. I want them (and Muslims in general) to return their ancestral countries, yes. Of course I also want us to stop meddling in those countries, so it’s a two way street.

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    • Replies: @L.K
    Listen here, Marcus, you have to stop being so disingeneous.

    When some French(or whatever other euro country) born Morrocan or Turk or whoever, brainwashed by Wahhabism, goes fight 'Jihad' in Syria, they are NOT 'returning to their ancestral countries'.

    The war in Syria was engineered by the fuc*ing CIA, French intel, MI6, Mossad and their Middle Eastern counterparts, with plans going back to the early 2000s.

    The US, but also the UK and France have long been in bed with radical Islam. They use them strategically.

    For one example, the British one, going back to the 1940s, see;
    https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Affairs-Britains-Collusion-Radical-ebook/dp/B0051YNTLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468625497&sr=1-1&keywords=british+collusion+with+radical+islam

    Secret Affairs: Britain's Collusion with Radical Islam

    "In this ground-breaking book, Mark Curtis reveals the covert history of British collusion with radical Islamic and terrorist groups. Secret Affairs shows how governments since the 1940s have connived with militant forces to control oil resources and overthrow governments. The story of how Britain has helped nurture the rise of global terrorism has never been told."

     

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  168. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery,

    Kadyrov doesn't represent all Chechens. And it's easy to live with all that money he gets from "Allah" (I don't know why he calls Putin "Allah"). How much is it really? The annual Russian subsidy to Chechnya, does anyone know?

    Avery, let's not start the whole "Nazi" discussion again, it could take a day. If you want to know my personal stance, I hate what the Germans did (they put the Latvian president's son in a concentration camp, btw), I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes whose relatives had been brutalized by the Russians and who were led by a half-Latvian, half-German collaborationist did to the Belorussians) and if any Belorussians are reading this - I deeply apologize to them for that and want them to know that my heart aches for that.

    But that doesn't justify what was done to the Chechen people.

    Just because Russia didn't create a nuclear wasteland in Chechnya, doesn't mean they didn't cull clans and clans of Chechens. I'm also very interested as to the status of the Chechen language these days (all the Kadyrov flags and slogans are in Russian and Cyrillic is used - how come they're not using Latin or their own script like the Georgians are).

    Chechens “won” more than the Russians as a people did, they have a very privileged place in Putin’s regime (see per capita spending on them compared to other nationalities) and are free to terrorize their “fellow citizens” while Russian nationalists are jailed.

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  169. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery,

    Kadyrov doesn't represent all Chechens. And it's easy to live with all that money he gets from "Allah" (I don't know why he calls Putin "Allah"). How much is it really? The annual Russian subsidy to Chechnya, does anyone know?

    Avery, let's not start the whole "Nazi" discussion again, it could take a day. If you want to know my personal stance, I hate what the Germans did (they put the Latvian president's son in a concentration camp, btw), I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes whose relatives had been brutalized by the Russians and who were led by a half-Latvian, half-German collaborationist did to the Belorussians) and if any Belorussians are reading this - I deeply apologize to them for that and want them to know that my heart aches for that.

    But that doesn't justify what was done to the Chechen people.

    Just because Russia didn't create a nuclear wasteland in Chechnya, doesn't mean they didn't cull clans and clans of Chechens. I'm also very interested as to the status of the Chechen language these days (all the Kadyrov flags and slogans are in Russian and Cyrillic is used - how come they're not using Latin or their own script like the Georgians are).

    {Kadyrov doesn’t represent all Chechens.}

    Of course not. No elected leader does. I don’t know any democratically elected leader in the West who represents all of their constituents. In any US presidential election, the vote is roughly equal, meaning about 49% of the US citizens are against the POTUS who was elected by the other 51%. How is that different for Kadyrov? Is it because your favourite radical Islamist terrorists are not in charge?

    And looks like a lot of Chechens support Kadyrov and Putin.
    [100,000 People Attend Putin Birthday Parade in Grozny (Video]

    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/100-000-people-attend-putin-birthday-parade-in-grozny/508539.html

    {….I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes ….}
    A couple of hundred? who are you kidding, yourself?

    {Avery, let’s not start the whole “Nazi” discussion again, it could take a day}
    No, let’s.
    You are not shy about falsely accusing Russians of, quote, “genociding” (sic).
    But you don’t want to start the whole “Nazi” thing?
    Why is that? Because you know your Latvian kin voluntarily and enthusiastically participated in the genocide of Jews and Slavic people, so you want to sweep it under the rug – is that it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Truly a confused people, before aiding the Nazis, they helped the Bolsheviks come to power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen now they (and other russophobe E Euro parasites) are begging the US to "protect" them!
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  170. Avery, why don’t you read up on what Nazis did to ethnic Latvians and how many ethnic Latvians actually fought on the Soviet side. And what the Russians did before the Nazis came.

    I will stand by my words – what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization. The Russians drove them into the mountains. They were attacked in their own country.

    And, btw, I also noticed that the Chechen birth rate has gone down in the recent couple of years – from something like 3.1 to 2.8.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {Avery, why don’t you read ...}


    Latvian woman:

    why don't _you_ read this:
    [Latvia Still Honors the Biggest Jew-Killing Machine in World History]
    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/03/18/latvia-still-honors-the-biggest-jew-killing-machine-in-world-history/
    , @Marcus


    I will stand by my words – what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization.
     
    Why should anyone have interfered in Russia's internal affairs? Typical Eastern Euro moocher wanting the West to help you dismember Russia.
    , @L.K
    Tsc, tsc, Latvian Woman, everybody wants to be victims of the evil natzee cannibals these days, even you guys eh! Put as much distance between u and the natzee beasts eh?
    Hahaha

    Wrong approach, lady. Were I a Latvian, and were I confronted by a dishonest imbecile and liar, such as this pathetic character, avery, I would simply state the basic facts;

    The USSR invaded and annexed Latvia so when later on the German military defeated and kicked the red army out, naturally enough, many Latvians saw the Germans as liberators.
    This even happened in many parts of the Ukraine, which had suffered horribly under the red Terror.
    Germans enter Riga 1941:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrRcDTu3bs

    Naturally, when the war turned against Germany on the Eastern Front, the latvians who wished to fight and defend their homeland against a new Soviet re-occupation, had to depend on the Germans for training, weapons, etc. This was done and the Latvians fought bravely.

    Young Latvian soldiers like these in Waffen SS uniform were not war criminals, they were fighting for their country.
    https://justpaste.it/wcm7
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  171. Marcus says:
    @Avery
    {Kadyrov doesn’t represent all Chechens.}

    Of course not. No elected leader does. I don't know any democratically elected leader in the West who represents all of their constituents. In any US presidential election, the vote is roughly equal, meaning about 49% of the US citizens are against the POTUS who was elected by the other 51%. How is that different for Kadyrov? Is it because your favourite radical Islamist terrorists are not in charge?

    And looks like a lot of Chechens support Kadyrov and Putin.
    [100,000 People Attend Putin Birthday Parade in Grozny (Video]
    http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/100-000-people-attend-putin-birthday-parade-in-grozny/508539.html


    {....I hate what a group of a couple hundred Latvian dudes ....}
    A couple of hundred? who are you kidding, yourself?

    {Avery, let’s not start the whole “Nazi” discussion again, it could take a day}
    No, let's.
    You are not shy about falsely accusing Russians of, quote, "genociding" (sic).
    But you don't want to start the whole "Nazi" thing?
    Why is that? Because you know your Latvian kin voluntarily and enthusiastically participated in the genocide of Jews and Slavic people, so you want to sweep it under the rug - is that it?

    Truly a confused people, before aiding the Nazis, they helped the Bolsheviks come to power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_Riflemen now they (and other russophobe E Euro parasites) are begging the US to “protect” them!

    Read More
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  172. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery, why don't you read up on what Nazis did to ethnic Latvians and how many ethnic Latvians actually fought on the Soviet side. And what the Russians did before the Nazis came.

    I will stand by my words - what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization. The Russians drove them into the mountains. They were attacked in their own country.

    And, btw, I also noticed that the Chechen birth rate has gone down in the recent couple of years - from something like 3.1 to 2.8.

    {Avery, why don’t you read …}

    Latvian woman:

    why don’t _you_ read this:
    [Latvia Still Honors the Biggest Jew-Killing Machine in World History]

    http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/03/18/latvia-still-honors-the-biggest-jew-killing-machine-in-world-history/

    Read More
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  173. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery, why don't you read up on what Nazis did to ethnic Latvians and how many ethnic Latvians actually fought on the Soviet side. And what the Russians did before the Nazis came.

    I will stand by my words - what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization. The Russians drove them into the mountains. They were attacked in their own country.

    And, btw, I also noticed that the Chechen birth rate has gone down in the recent couple of years - from something like 3.1 to 2.8.

    I will stand by my words – what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization.

    Why should anyone have interfered in Russia’s internal affairs? Typical Eastern Euro moocher wanting the West to help you dismember Russia.

    Read More
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  174. So it’s ok to “interfere” in a whole bunch of other cases and countries but it’s not ok in this case?

    I’m talking about why the Chechens got radicalized, I’m not saying I want “Russia dismembered”.

    And. Marcus, if you’re American I’d be careful about talking about “mooching off of others”, since the US is in debt and is mooching off of the world. You’re the one to talk.

    And who do you think would be better to have on one’s side in war – the West or the Chechens… rhetorical question.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there's proof OBL was involved), but Chechnya would've had the added "benefit" of starting a nuclear war for the sake of a tiny breakaway republic. I think Russia should've let them leave, but it was none of our business and too insane even for neocons.
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  175. And, Marcus, nobody’s mooching off of anybody because nothing in this world is for free. If one sides with Americans and puts a target on themselves, that’s a very high price to pay, as we saw today in France.

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  176. Avery says:

    [BREAKING NEWS: At least 80 killed in horrific terror attack in Nice, France, as truck mows down crowd watching Bastille Day fireworks celebration]

    http://www.foxnews.com/world/2016/07/15/at-least-80-dead-18-seriously-injured-in-bastille-day-terror-attack-in-france.html

    What Christian Europe needs is more Radical Islamist “refugees”.
    Of course.
    If there were more Muslims in France, this would not happen.
    All the fault of thems “Islamophobic”, bigoted Christians, you see.

    Ingrate IslamoFascist radical Islamists, who were generously allowed to settle in Christian France, repaying the generosity of their Christian hosts by murdering innocent Christian civilians.
    Solution ? Import millions more peaceful, peace loving Muslims.

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  177. JL says:

    Like any typical fascist Balt, Latvian Woman has never met a Russia-hater she doesn’t like, regardless of how odious their ideology. Note how when the subject of Russia is mentioned any pretense of truth is thrown out the window. Perhaps in other fora she can get away with claiming that the Chechen insurgency had no foreign backing, or there were only a few hundred Latvian Nazis. For anyone with a scintilla of knowledge, however, she’s merely flying her true colors.

    I usually shy away from condemning entire nations, but it’s simply hard not to with the Baltics. There are those who can be a “malyi narod” and maintain some dignity, but the Balts feel like they have to always be under someone’s thumb. It allows them to engage in treachery while shirking ultimate responsibility. Pathetic.

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  178. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    To be honest, from the rational point of view, one can understand why some of them are turning to Wahhabism, because the world was indifferent when a third of them was genocided. There are still no investigations about that. They didn't have any allies. So they turned to the caliphate - all these Shishani factions (that by the way try to stay "independent" of ISIS) is their "foreign policy" because if they can establish the Caucasus emirates, they could have independence from Russia. I hope there is no civil war there in the future.

    And, by the way, a real shahid is someone exactly like these Shishani who fight a war and die in a war, not blow themselves up with a shahid belt. As far as I know (and I might be wrong) Islam doesn't allow one to decide his time of death.

    Dear LW,

    If you are talking about the first Chechen war, then I would have to agree with Avery – Russia hit Chechnya with a hammer, but nothing like a genocide happened. If you are talking the history of Russia in the Caucasus, then the Circassian genocide should be well known to anybody with a grip of history in that region (of course, in the 1800′s – ‘population removal’ was all the rage [America, Turkey, etc.]) as well as Stalin hauling off practically all of the Chechen population (to their credit, they allowed them to come back in the 60′s).

    But the first Chechen war was successful from a political standpoint, it was not a good idea to sign up for a Wahhabi-extremist vision to establish an Emirate militarily when it may have been possible to get a long-term political solution with patience and organization.

    As far as the shaheed, one can’t just fight and die and be considered a shaheed; for instance, if you break into someone’s house to steal their stuff and die in a shootout with the owner – this is not legitimate. Daesh would be considered bughat (rebels, and not legitimate ones at that) so their claims to a righteous cause are rejected.

    And yes, their is a difference of opinion on the whole suicide operations, but the majority of traditional scholars I have come across indeed condemn it (if interested in juristic underpinnings):

    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Ironically, Stalin was such a fan of a novel that valorized Chechen resistance to Imperial Russia (in contrast to the docile Georgians) that he took his code name from one of his characters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Patricide
    , @L.K
    The deportation under Stalin decimated the Chechen Nation; 1/3 or perhaps more perished.
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  179. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    So it's ok to "interfere" in a whole bunch of other cases and countries but it's not ok in this case?

    I'm talking about why the Chechens got radicalized, I'm not saying I want "Russia dismembered".

    And. Marcus, if you're American I'd be careful about talking about "mooching off of others", since the US is in debt and is mooching off of the world. You're the one to talk.

    And who do you think would be better to have on one's side in war - the West or the Chechens... rhetorical question.

    None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there’s proof OBL was involved), but Chechnya would’ve had the added “benefit” of starting a nuclear war for the sake of a tiny breakaway republic. I think Russia should’ve let them leave, but it was none of our business and too insane even for neocons.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {I think Russia should’ve let them leave, ...}

    Well, after the humiliating defeat in the first Chechnya war, Chechnya de-facto left.
    Moscow had had enough of the pointless bloodshed, and pretty much let Chechnya alone.

    But emboldened by their success, the Islamists decided to go for more, and invaded neighboring Ingushetia, which was/is part of RF. The openly stated goal of Chechen Islamists was the establishment of a Caucasus Islamist emirate.
    If allowed to rampage free, after Ingushetia, Islamists would invade Dagestan, North Ossetia,....and pretty soon whole of South Russia would become an Islamist terrorist base and staging ground to attack the heartland of Russia.

    Aside from the Islamist angle, my sympathy is with the Chechen people, because they are indigenous to their country. But as has already been argued, Chechnya would not be left alone in either case. In the absence of Russia, US/Neocons, and/or Saudi Arabia/Turkey would establish themselves there, and work to attack Russia's heartland.

    US will not allow anything or anyone to even remotely threaten its hegemony anywhere in the Americas (Monroe Doctrine), but the same crowd expects Russia to allow its mortal enemies to establish a base right on Russia's border.
    , @L.K
    Marcus: "None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there’s proof OBL was involved)"

    That is correct, they were not.
    There is NO proof OBL was involved with 9/11 at all. OBL himself in 3 interviews given b4 having to flee for his life, denied any involvement. One interview was given to Al-Jazeera.

    The Taliban, in fact, repeatedly asked for proof, none was forthcoming. Not then, not now.

    The invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11.
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  180. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    Talha, judging from the Russian social media sites that I have peeked at, you might be right: there are radical Muslim Kist, Ingush and Chechen profiles that convey the kind of values I mentioned above - faith, loyalty, family, selflessness (and a good dose of fundamentalism, of course), and on the other side - the Kadyrov's young generation of Chechens - some of them, while very attractive people, are very vain, affluent, the women very exhibitionist (tight clothing, duck face, etc), although I'd say, they still seem very romantic (it seems their eventual goal is love and family (monogamous or sometimes polygamous)). It might spur a debate about what is or isn't "Chechen" or "un-Chechen" (if we as outsiders are in any position to define that). Don't get me wrong - I like the Kadyrov's kids, too, I like that they're doing well, that they can celebrate the end of Ramadan sitting by beautifully clad tables - I really wish them prosperity.

    But it is such a contrast with a young Kist boy from Pankisi who calls himself the "Warrior of Allah" and dies at age 18 or 20 in Syria while fighting Kurds (or maybe in an American or Russian airstrike).

    For some odd reason that seems much more admirable, even though it's a loss for his people.

    I agree, the bravery is indeed admirable (as an isolated quality), but they have devoted themselves to a horrible cause – there is no honor in what they are doing.

    I do hope (like you) this next generation of Chechens is able strike the right balance between the best part of their tradition and the technological revolution they are witnessing.

    Peace.

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  181. Talha says:
    @L.K
    Talha,

    Basically, it's Geopolitics;

    F. William Engdahl has written extensively on this. A little from one of his articles on the subject:

    ...They were called Afghan Arabs because they had been recruited from ultraconservative Wahhabite Sunni Muslims from Saudi Arabia, the Arab Emirates, Kuwait, and elsewhere in the Arab world where the ultra-strict Wahhabite Islam was practiced. They were brought to Afghanistan in the early 1980’s by a Saudi CIA recruit who had been sent to Afghanistan named Osama bin Laden.

    With the former Soviet Union in total chaos and disarray, George H.W. Bush’s Administration decided to “kick ‘em when they’re down,” a sad error. Washington redeployed their Afghan veteran terrorists to bring chaos and destabilize all of Central Asia, even into the Russian Federation itself, then in a deep and traumatic crisis during the economic collapse of the Yeltsin era.

    In the early 1990s, Dick Cheney’s company, Halliburton, had surveyed the offshore oil potentials of Azerbaijan, Kazakhstan, and the entire Caspian Sea Basin. They estimated the region to be “another Saudi Arabia” worth several trillion dollars on today’s market. The US and UK were determined to keep that oil bonanza from Russian control by all means. The first target of Washington was to stage a coup in Azerbaijan against elected president Abulfaz Elchibey to install a President more friendly to a US-controlled Baku–Tbilisi–Ceyhan (BTC) oil pipeline, “the world’s most political pipeline,” bringing Baku oil from Azerbaijan through Georgia to Turkey and the Mediterranean.

    At that time, the only existing oil pipeline from Baku was a Soviet era Russian pipeline that ran through the Chechen capital, Grozny, taking Baku oil north via Russia’s Dagestan province, and across Chechenya to the Black Sea Russian port of Novorossiysk. The pipeline was the only competition and major obstacle to the very costly alternative route of Washington and the British and US oil majors.

    President Bush Sr. gave his old friends at CIA the mandate to destroy that Russian Chechen pipeline and create such chaos in the Caucasus that no Western or Russian company would consider using the Grozny Russian oil pipeline.

    Graham E. Fuller, an old colleague of Bush and former Deputy Director of the CIA National Council on Intelligence had been a key architect of the CIA Mujahideen strategy. Fuller described the CIA strategy in the Caucasus in the early 1990s: “The policy of guiding the evolution of Islam and of helping them against our adversaries worked marvelously well in Afghanistan against the Red Army. The same doctrines can still be used to destabilize what remains of Russian."

    Chechnya then was traditionally a predominantly Sufi society, a mild apolitical branch of Islam. Yet the increasing infiltration of the well-financed and well-trained US-sponsored Mujahideen terrorists preaching Jihad or Holy War against Russians transformed the initially reformist Chechen resistance movement. They spread al-Qaeda’s hardline Islamist ideology across the Caucasus. Under Secord’s guidance, Mujahideen terrorist operations had also quickly extended into neighboring Dagestan and Chechnya, turning Baku into a shipping point for Afghan heroin to the Chechen mafia.

    From the mid-1990s, bin Laden paid Chechen guerrilla leaders Shamil Basayev and Omar ibn al-Khattab the handsome sum of several million dollars per month, a King’s fortune in economically desolate Chechnya in the 1990s, enabling them to sideline the moderate Chechen majority.21 US intelligence remained deeply involved in the Chechen conflict until the end of the 1990s. According to Yossef Bodansky, then Director of the US Congressional Task Force on Terrorism and Unconventional Warfare, Washington was actively involved in “yet another anti-Russian jihad, seeking to support and empower the most virulent anti-Western Islamist forces.”

    Bodansky revealed the entire CIA Caucasus strategy in detail in his report, stating that US Government officials participated in:

    “a formal meeting in Azerbaijan in December 1999 in which specific programs for the training and equipping of Mujahideen from the Caucasus, Central/South Asia and the Arab world were discussed and agreed upon, culminating in Washington’s tacit encouragement of both Muslim allies (mainly Turkey, Jordan and Saudi Arabia) and US ‘private security companies’. . . to assist the Chechens and their Islamist allies to surge in the spring of 2000 and sustain the ensuing Jihad for a long time…Islamist Jihad in the Caucasus as a way to deprive Russia of a viable pipeline route through spiraling violence and terrorism.”
     
    Worth reading it all
    http://journal-neo.org/2015/05/15/what-if-putin-is-telling-the-truth/

    Hey LK,

    Wow! Great reference. I had always had my hunches, but it is good to see something validating in black and white – thanks!

    This reminds me that it has been a while since I voiced my opposition to my representatives regarding our Syria policy’ it’s time to make a couple of calls.

    Peace.

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  182. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Dear LW,

    If you are talking about the first Chechen war, then I would have to agree with Avery - Russia hit Chechnya with a hammer, but nothing like a genocide happened. If you are talking the history of Russia in the Caucasus, then the Circassian genocide should be well known to anybody with a grip of history in that region (of course, in the 1800's - 'population removal' was all the rage [America, Turkey, etc.]) as well as Stalin hauling off practically all of the Chechen population (to their credit, they allowed them to come back in the 60's).

    But the first Chechen war was successful from a political standpoint, it was not a good idea to sign up for a Wahhabi-extremist vision to establish an Emirate militarily when it may have been possible to get a long-term political solution with patience and organization.

    As far as the shaheed, one can't just fight and die and be considered a shaheed; for instance, if you break into someone's house to steal their stuff and die in a shootout with the owner - this is not legitimate. Daesh would be considered bughat (rebels, and not legitimate ones at that) so their claims to a righteous cause are rejected.

    And yes, their is a difference of opinion on the whole suicide operations, but the majority of traditional scholars I have come across indeed condemn it (if interested in juristic underpinnings):
    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.

    Ironically, Stalin was such a fan of a novel that valorized Chechen resistance to Imperial Russia (in contrast to the docile Georgians) that he took his code name from one of his characters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Patricide

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  183. Avery says:
    @Marcus
    None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there's proof OBL was involved), but Chechnya would've had the added "benefit" of starting a nuclear war for the sake of a tiny breakaway republic. I think Russia should've let them leave, but it was none of our business and too insane even for neocons.

    {I think Russia should’ve let them leave, …}

    Well, after the humiliating defeat in the first Chechnya war, Chechnya de-facto left.
    Moscow had had enough of the pointless bloodshed, and pretty much let Chechnya alone.

    But emboldened by their success, the Islamists decided to go for more, and invaded neighboring Ingushetia, which was/is part of RF. The openly stated goal of Chechen Islamists was the establishment of a Caucasus Islamist emirate.
    If allowed to rampage free, after Ingushetia, Islamists would invade Dagestan, North Ossetia,….and pretty soon whole of South Russia would become an Islamist terrorist base and staging ground to attack the heartland of Russia.

    Aside from the Islamist angle, my sympathy is with the Chechen people, because they are indigenous to their country. But as has already been argued, Chechnya would not be left alone in either case. In the absence of Russia, US/Neocons, and/or Saudi Arabia/Turkey would establish themselves there, and work to attack Russia’s heartland.

    US will not allow anything or anyone to even remotely threaten its hegemony anywhere in the Americas (Monroe Doctrine), but the same crowd expects Russia to allow its mortal enemies to establish a base right on Russia’s border.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    [Six months after the Khasav-Yurt Accord, on 12 May 1997, Chechen-elected president Aslan Maskhadov traveled to Moscow where he and Yeltsin signed a formal treaty "on peace and the principles of Russian-Chechen relations" that Maskhadov predicted would demolish "any basis to create ill-feelings between Moscow and Grozny." Maskhadov's optimism, however, proved misplaced. Little more than two years later, some of Maskhadov's former comrades-in-arms, led by radical field commanders Shamil Basayev and Ibn al-Khattab, launched an invasion of Dagestan in the summer of 1999 – and soon Russia's forces entered Chechnya again, marking the beginning of the Second Chechen War.] (from Wiki)
    , @Marcus
    I meant at the onset of the first war, I agree that the second war was forced on Russia, but they could've left after removing the foreign mujahedin, no? Most Chechens weren't on board with the jihadi agenda anyway.
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  184. Avery says:
    @Avery
    {I think Russia should’ve let them leave, ...}

    Well, after the humiliating defeat in the first Chechnya war, Chechnya de-facto left.
    Moscow had had enough of the pointless bloodshed, and pretty much let Chechnya alone.

    But emboldened by their success, the Islamists decided to go for more, and invaded neighboring Ingushetia, which was/is part of RF. The openly stated goal of Chechen Islamists was the establishment of a Caucasus Islamist emirate.
    If allowed to rampage free, after Ingushetia, Islamists would invade Dagestan, North Ossetia,....and pretty soon whole of South Russia would become an Islamist terrorist base and staging ground to attack the heartland of Russia.

    Aside from the Islamist angle, my sympathy is with the Chechen people, because they are indigenous to their country. But as has already been argued, Chechnya would not be left alone in either case. In the absence of Russia, US/Neocons, and/or Saudi Arabia/Turkey would establish themselves there, and work to attack Russia's heartland.

    US will not allow anything or anyone to even remotely threaten its hegemony anywhere in the Americas (Monroe Doctrine), but the same crowd expects Russia to allow its mortal enemies to establish a base right on Russia's border.

    [Six months after the Khasav-Yurt Accord, on 12 May 1997, Chechen-elected president Aslan Maskhadov traveled to Moscow where he and Yeltsin signed a formal treaty "on peace and the principles of Russian-Chechen relations" that Maskhadov predicted would demolish "any basis to create ill-feelings between Moscow and Grozny." Maskhadov's optimism, however, proved misplaced. Little more than two years later, some of Maskhadov's former comrades-in-arms, led by radical field commanders Shamil Basayev and Ibn al-Khattab, launched an invasion of Dagestan in the summer of 1999 – and soon Russia's forces entered Chechnya again, marking the beginning of the Second Chechen War.] (from Wiki)

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  185. Marcus says:
    @Avery
    {I think Russia should’ve let them leave, ...}

    Well, after the humiliating defeat in the first Chechnya war, Chechnya de-facto left.
    Moscow had had enough of the pointless bloodshed, and pretty much let Chechnya alone.

    But emboldened by their success, the Islamists decided to go for more, and invaded neighboring Ingushetia, which was/is part of RF. The openly stated goal of Chechen Islamists was the establishment of a Caucasus Islamist emirate.
    If allowed to rampage free, after Ingushetia, Islamists would invade Dagestan, North Ossetia,....and pretty soon whole of South Russia would become an Islamist terrorist base and staging ground to attack the heartland of Russia.

    Aside from the Islamist angle, my sympathy is with the Chechen people, because they are indigenous to their country. But as has already been argued, Chechnya would not be left alone in either case. In the absence of Russia, US/Neocons, and/or Saudi Arabia/Turkey would establish themselves there, and work to attack Russia's heartland.

    US will not allow anything or anyone to even remotely threaten its hegemony anywhere in the Americas (Monroe Doctrine), but the same crowd expects Russia to allow its mortal enemies to establish a base right on Russia's border.

    I meant at the onset of the first war, I agree that the second war was forced on Russia, but they could’ve left after removing the foreign mujahedin, no? Most Chechens weren’t on board with the jihadi agenda anyway.

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  186. Of course, everyone knows that there were Saudis in Chechnya, I was talking more about the last 200 years. They have been persistently oppressed in their own country and nobody cared – why would it surprise one that their most nationalist factions would side with Islamists? The Ingush are their brother nation. And I didn’t mean the West should’ve intervened – my point was more rhetorical – I was just pointing out to the Western hypocrisy – some abuses are acceptable, some aren’t depending where it suits to interfere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    So you do in fact believe the US should have started a nuclear war to help Chechnya secede? Eastern Euro russophobes are even crazier than Neocons!
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  187. L.K says:

    Coup Attempt ongoing in Turkey!!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara

    Coup attempt underway in Turkey, gunfire heard in Ankara

    Very low flying F-16 over Ankara #Turkey – Night july 15-16 2016

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I remember Amr Moussa (head of the Arab League at the time) stating:
    “We will continue to work to avoid a military confrontation [invasion of Iraq] ... because we believe that it will open the gates of hell in the Middle East"
    http://www.arabnews.com/node/223999

    I remember thinking that was very hyperbolic - but I cannot believe we are at the point we are after 12+ years.

    May God save us from any more calamities...

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  188. Talha says:
    @L.K
    Coup Attempt ongoing in Turkey!!

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2016/jul/15/turkey-coup-attempt-military-gunfire-ankara

    Coup attempt underway in Turkey, gunfire heard in Ankara
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgvB9CpbdwI

    Very low flying F-16 over Ankara #Turkey - Night july 15-16 2016
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=meKz4Gd8dEU

    I remember Amr Moussa (head of the Arab League at the time) stating:
    “We will continue to work to avoid a military confrontation [invasion of Iraq] … because we believe that it will open the gates of hell in the Middle East”

    http://www.arabnews.com/node/223999

    I remember thinking that was very hyperbolic – but I cannot believe we are at the point we are after 12+ years.

    May God save us from any more calamities…

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  189. Marcus says:
    @Latvian woman
    Of course, everyone knows that there were Saudis in Chechnya, I was talking more about the last 200 years. They have been persistently oppressed in their own country and nobody cared - why would it surprise one that their most nationalist factions would side with Islamists? The Ingush are their brother nation. And I didn't mean the West should've intervened - my point was more rhetorical - I was just pointing out to the Western hypocrisy - some abuses are acceptable, some aren't depending where it suits to interfere.

    So you do in fact believe the US should have started a nuclear war to help Chechnya secede? Eastern Euro russophobes are even crazier than Neocons!

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  190. Marcus, you are completely misconstruing my words, there is no point in arguing with you (and other black and white folks on this board, some of who appear like they could be Russian Jews). You don’t know if I’m a russophobe or not (in fact, I’m sure I speak much better Russian than you, know more about the Russian culture and have more Russian friends than you ever will). Don’t be so conceited, not everything in the world revolves around the US.

    The fact remains, that destroying countries’ / people’s identities or meddling with them, can lead to radicalization of those countries nationalists or even moderates, especially, if they were Muslim to begin with.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {...some of who appear like they could be Russian Jews....}
    Wow: channeling the 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian), are you?

    {You don’t know if I’m a russophobe or not..}
    We can tell by the Russophobic comments you have been posting.


    {in fact, I’m sure I speak much better Russian than you, know more about the Russian culture and have more Russian friends than you ever will)}
    What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

    {The fact remains, that destroying countries’ / people’s identities or meddling with them,....}
    Are you for real?
    You complain about meddling, but you advocate the Neocon West meddling in Russia ?
    So there is "good meddling" and "bad meddling" as far as you are concerned , No? Depending whose ox is gored, Yes?

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  191. I see that you are just as brainwashed as the liberal SWPLs, just in the other direction. It’s understandable, it’s comfortable to stay within your delusional paradigm.

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  192. L.K says:
    @Talha
    Dear LW,

    If you are talking about the first Chechen war, then I would have to agree with Avery - Russia hit Chechnya with a hammer, but nothing like a genocide happened. If you are talking the history of Russia in the Caucasus, then the Circassian genocide should be well known to anybody with a grip of history in that region (of course, in the 1800's - 'population removal' was all the rage [America, Turkey, etc.]) as well as Stalin hauling off practically all of the Chechen population (to their credit, they allowed them to come back in the 60's).

    But the first Chechen war was successful from a political standpoint, it was not a good idea to sign up for a Wahhabi-extremist vision to establish an Emirate militarily when it may have been possible to get a long-term political solution with patience and organization.

    As far as the shaheed, one can't just fight and die and be considered a shaheed; for instance, if you break into someone's house to steal their stuff and die in a shootout with the owner - this is not legitimate. Daesh would be considered bughat (rebels, and not legitimate ones at that) so their claims to a righteous cause are rejected.

    And yes, their is a difference of opinion on the whole suicide operations, but the majority of traditional scholars I have come across indeed condemn it (if interested in juristic underpinnings):
    http://www.livingislam.org/maa/dcmm_e.html

    Peace.

    The deportation under Stalin decimated the Chechen Nation; 1/3 or perhaps more perished.

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  193. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    Marcus, you are completely misconstruing my words, there is no point in arguing with you (and other black and white folks on this board, some of who appear like they could be Russian Jews). You don't know if I'm a russophobe or not (in fact, I'm sure I speak much better Russian than you, know more about the Russian culture and have more Russian friends than you ever will). Don't be so conceited, not everything in the world revolves around the US.

    The fact remains, that destroying countries' / people's identities or meddling with them, can lead to radicalization of those countries nationalists or even moderates, especially, if they were Muslim to begin with.

    {…some of who appear like they could be Russian Jews….}
    Wow: channeling the 15th Waffen Grenadier Division of the SS (1st Latvian), are you?

    {You don’t know if I’m a russophobe or not..}
    We can tell by the Russophobic comments you have been posting.

    {in fact, I’m sure I speak much better Russian than you, know more about the Russian culture and have more Russian friends than you ever will)}
    What does that have to do with the price of eggs in China?

    {The fact remains, that destroying countries’ / people’s identities or meddling with them,….}
    Are you for real?
    You complain about meddling, but you advocate the Neocon West meddling in Russia ?
    So there is “good meddling” and “bad meddling” as far as you are concerned , No? Depending whose ox is gored, Yes?

    Read More
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  194. L.K says:
    @Marcus
    I wouldn't call them nutjobs, they are just idealistic youths. I want them (and Muslims in general) to return their ancestral countries, yes. Of course I also want us to stop meddling in those countries, so it's a two way street.

    Listen here, Marcus, you have to stop being so disingeneous.

    When some French(or whatever other euro country) born Morrocan or Turk or whoever, brainwashed by Wahhabism, goes fight ‘Jihad’ in Syria, they are NOT ‘returning to their ancestral countries’.

    The war in Syria was engineered by the fuc*ing CIA, French intel, MI6, Mossad and their Middle Eastern counterparts, with plans going back to the early 2000s.

    The US, but also the UK and France have long been in bed with radical Islam. They use them strategically.

    For one example, the British one, going back to the 1940s, see;

    https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Affairs-Britains-Collusion-Radical-ebook/dp/B0051YNTLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468625497&sr=1-1&keywords=british+collusion+with+radical+islam

    Secret Affairs: Britain’s Collusion with Radical Islam

    “In this ground-breaking book, Mark Curtis reveals the covert history of British collusion with radical Islamic and terrorist groups. Secret Affairs shows how governments since the 1940s have connived with militant forces to control oil resources and overthrow governments. The story of how Britain has helped nurture the rise of global terrorism has never been told.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Right, but many Muslims believe that it's haram to stay in an infidel land when any Muslim land is available. Anyway, I'm not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it's for a bad cause.
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  195. L.K says:
    @Marcus
    None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there's proof OBL was involved), but Chechnya would've had the added "benefit" of starting a nuclear war for the sake of a tiny breakaway republic. I think Russia should've let them leave, but it was none of our business and too insane even for neocons.

    Marcus: “None of our interventions were justified (except maybe Afghanistan if there’s proof OBL was involved)”

    That is correct, they were not.
    There is NO proof OBL was involved with 9/11 at all. OBL himself in 3 interviews given b4 having to flee for his life, denied any involvement. One interview was given to Al-Jazeera.

    The Taliban, in fact, repeatedly asked for proof, none was forthcoming. Not then, not now.

    The invasion of Afghanistan had nothing to do with 9-11.

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  196. Avery, you seem to be suffering from some weird Nazi anxiety – you rave about them all the time, under every article, you seem to see them everywhere. Take a swig of Ararat cognac and chill out for a minute.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    Latvian woman: you likewise, seem to be suffering from some weird Russian/Russia anxiety.

    "you rave about them all the time, under every article, you seem to see them everywhere. ...". Oh my, projecting again, are you?

    One thing you are right about: fine Armenian Ararat brandy.
    I took a little sip of the magnificent creation: one does not _swig_ fine Armenian brandy.
    One enjoys it from the proper brandy glass, very small sips at a time, allowing the heavenly aroma and essence saturate one's senses.

    Now, I don't know what I should recommend that you enjoy - in moderation, of course, and not operating any machinery. Since vodka is verboten, and I do not know much about Latvian fine spirits,.....some German Schnapps perhaps?
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  197. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery, you seem to be suffering from some weird Nazi anxiety - you rave about them all the time, under every article, you seem to see them everywhere. Take a swig of Ararat cognac and chill out for a minute.

    Latvian woman: you likewise, seem to be suffering from some weird Russian/Russia anxiety.

    “you rave about them all the time, under every article, you seem to see them everywhere. …”. Oh my, projecting again, are you?

    One thing you are right about: fine Armenian Ararat brandy.
    I took a little sip of the magnificent creation: one does not _swig_ fine Armenian brandy.
    One enjoys it from the proper brandy glass, very small sips at a time, allowing the heavenly aroma and essence saturate one’s senses.

    Now, I don’t know what I should recommend that you enjoy – in moderation, of course, and not operating any machinery. Since vodka is verboten, and I do not know much about Latvian fine spirits,…..some German Schnapps perhaps?

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  198. That’s right, my bad. A “swig” would be with whiskey, not Ararat brandy. One must indeed sip it. In fact, I have visited the factory in Erevan and seen the barrels with my own eyes. As well as the mountain in the distance.

    Well, we have black balsam and beer which I don’t fancy too much, so I’ll just stick with Italian wine. Or maybe have a pill of Meldonium (Mildronat) – the highly “dangerous” supplement (in the West) which you may or may not know was actually produced in Latvia.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    Enjoy.
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  199. Avery says:
    @Latvian woman
    That's right, my bad. A "swig" would be with whiskey, not Ararat brandy. One must indeed sip it. In fact, I have visited the factory in Erevan and seen the barrels with my own eyes. As well as the mountain in the distance.

    Well, we have black balsam and beer which I don't fancy too much, so I'll just stick with Italian wine. Or maybe have a pill of Meldonium (Mildronat) - the highly "dangerous" supplement (in the West) which you may or may not know was actually produced in Latvia.

    Enjoy.

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  200. Marcus says:
    @L.K
    Listen here, Marcus, you have to stop being so disingeneous.

    When some French(or whatever other euro country) born Morrocan or Turk or whoever, brainwashed by Wahhabism, goes fight 'Jihad' in Syria, they are NOT 'returning to their ancestral countries'.

    The war in Syria was engineered by the fuc*ing CIA, French intel, MI6, Mossad and their Middle Eastern counterparts, with plans going back to the early 2000s.

    The US, but also the UK and France have long been in bed with radical Islam. They use them strategically.

    For one example, the British one, going back to the 1940s, see;
    https://www.amazon.com/Secret-Affairs-Britains-Collusion-Radical-ebook/dp/B0051YNTLW/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468625497&sr=1-1&keywords=british+collusion+with+radical+islam

    Secret Affairs: Britain's Collusion with Radical Islam

    "In this ground-breaking book, Mark Curtis reveals the covert history of British collusion with radical Islamic and terrorist groups. Secret Affairs shows how governments since the 1940s have connived with militant forces to control oil resources and overthrow governments. The story of how Britain has helped nurture the rise of global terrorism has never been told."

     

    Right, but many Muslims believe that it’s haram to stay in an infidel land when any Muslim land is available. Anyway, I’m not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it’s for a bad cause.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    What - would you kick out us poor dhimmis? Apparently you didn't read the text of the article (understandable - it was a long read) I linked to from the capable Malaysian scholar Shaykh al-Akiti (db) - highlights on how classical scholars might qualify our situation...
    "We say: It is clear that the countries in the Union are non-Muslim states, except for Turkey or Bosnia, for example, if they are a part of the Union. The status of the Muslims who reside and are born in non-Muslim states is the reverse of the above non-Muslim status in a Muslim state: al-Muslim bi-dhimmati l-kâfir [a Muslim in the care of a non-Muslim state] and from our own Muslim and religious perspective, whether we like it or not, there are similarities to the status of a guest which should not be forgotten.
    There is precedent for this status in our Law. The answer to your question is that they should as a practical matter remain in these countries, and if applicable, learn to cure the schizophrenic cultural condition in which they may find themselves - whether of torn identity in their souls or of dissociation from the general society. If they cannot do so, but find instead that their surroundings are incompatible with the life they feel they must lead, then it is recommended for them to leave and reside in a Muslim state."

    Peace.
    , @L.K
    Hmmm... I don't consider Syria to be "Muslim land".

    It is one of the cradles of Christianity and some of the most ancient Christian communities reside in Syria.
    Of course you don't care about any of that, as long as these radicals leave the "West", which is largely responsible for the spread of this demented death cult of salafism/waahabism, that is fine by you... a pretty depraved position.

    Interestingly, in many Western countries, Salafism is tolerated, in the name of "Democracy"; For example, in Belgium:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6OyoCDnqbg8

    At the same time, in Belgium, as in many other EU pseudo democracies, an open debate of alleged historical facts re to the holocau$t will land you in trouble with the law. Funny, eh?
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  201. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Right, but many Muslims believe that it's haram to stay in an infidel land when any Muslim land is available. Anyway, I'm not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it's for a bad cause.

    What – would you kick out us poor dhimmis? Apparently you didn’t read the text of the article (understandable – it was a long read) I linked to from the capable Malaysian scholar Shaykh al-Akiti (db) – highlights on how classical scholars might qualify our situation…
    “We say: It is clear that the countries in the Union are non-Muslim states, except for Turkey or Bosnia, for example, if they are a part of the Union. The status of the Muslims who reside and are born in non-Muslim states is the reverse of the above non-Muslim status in a Muslim state: al-Muslim bi-dhimmati l-kâfir [a Muslim in the care of a non-Muslim state] and from our own Muslim and religious perspective, whether we like it or not, there are similarities to the status of a guest which should not be forgotten.
    There is precedent for this status in our Law. The answer to your question is that they should as a practical matter remain in these countries, and if applicable, learn to cure the schizophrenic cultural condition in which they may find themselves – whether of torn identity in their souls or of dissociation from the general society. If they cannot do so, but find instead that their surroundings are incompatible with the life they feel they must lead, then it is recommended for them to leave and reside in a Muslim state.”

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {What – would you kick out us poor dhimmis?}

    How did you construe the word 'leave' - as in voluntary - to mean 'kick us out'?
    This is what the poster wrote:
    {Anyway, I’m not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it’s for a bad cause.}

    , @Marcus
    Interesting, thanks. Yes, from what Europeans tell me, the immigrants behave themselves as anything but courteous guests, they lost any goodwill they might have had, only leftist parties want them (for cynical, political reasons). The US has probably skimmed the top more in terms of quality of immigrants, but I've heard from whites in Michigan that the Arabs there are often very unpleasant to locals.
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  202. Avery says:
    @Talha
    What - would you kick out us poor dhimmis? Apparently you didn't read the text of the article (understandable - it was a long read) I linked to from the capable Malaysian scholar Shaykh al-Akiti (db) - highlights on how classical scholars might qualify our situation...
    "We say: It is clear that the countries in the Union are non-Muslim states, except for Turkey or Bosnia, for example, if they are a part of the Union. The status of the Muslims who reside and are born in non-Muslim states is the reverse of the above non-Muslim status in a Muslim state: al-Muslim bi-dhimmati l-kâfir [a Muslim in the care of a non-Muslim state] and from our own Muslim and religious perspective, whether we like it or not, there are similarities to the status of a guest which should not be forgotten.
    There is precedent for this status in our Law. The answer to your question is that they should as a practical matter remain in these countries, and if applicable, learn to cure the schizophrenic cultural condition in which they may find themselves - whether of torn identity in their souls or of dissociation from the general society. If they cannot do so, but find instead that their surroundings are incompatible with the life they feel they must lead, then it is recommended for them to leave and reside in a Muslim state."

    Peace.

    {What – would you kick out us poor dhimmis?}

    How did you construe the word ‘leave’ – as in voluntary – to mean ‘kick us out’?
    This is what the poster wrote:
    {Anyway, I’m not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it’s for a bad cause.}

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    I know, I was deliberately being facetious. Marcus and I have a history on this subject; pulling his leg a little...

    Peace.
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  203. Talha says:
    @Avery
    {What – would you kick out us poor dhimmis?}

    How did you construe the word 'leave' - as in voluntary - to mean 'kick us out'?
    This is what the poster wrote:
    {Anyway, I’m not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it’s for a bad cause.}

    Hey Avery,

    I know, I was deliberately being facetious. Marcus and I have a history on this subject; pulling his leg a little…

    Peace.

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  204. L.K says:
    @Latvian woman
    Avery, why don't you read up on what Nazis did to ethnic Latvians and how many ethnic Latvians actually fought on the Soviet side. And what the Russians did before the Nazis came.

    I will stand by my words - what was done to the Chechens was highly unjust, unacceptable and the world stood by indifferently, and that could be ONE of the reasons of their radicalization. The Russians drove them into the mountains. They were attacked in their own country.

    And, btw, I also noticed that the Chechen birth rate has gone down in the recent couple of years - from something like 3.1 to 2.8.

    Tsc, tsc, Latvian Woman, everybody wants to be victims of the evil natzee cannibals these days, even you guys eh! Put as much distance between u and the natzee beasts eh?
    Hahaha

    Wrong approach, lady. Were I a Latvian, and were I confronted by a dishonest imbecile and liar, such as this pathetic character, avery, I would simply state the basic facts;

    The USSR invaded and annexed Latvia so when later on the German military defeated and kicked the red army out, naturally enough, many Latvians saw the Germans as liberators.
    This even happened in many parts of the Ukraine, which had suffered horribly under the red Terror.
    Germans enter Riga 1941:

    Naturally, when the war turned against Germany on the Eastern Front, the latvians who wished to fight and defend their homeland against a new Soviet re-occupation, had to depend on the Germans for training, weapons, etc. This was done and the Latvians fought bravely.

    Young Latvian soldiers like these in Waffen SS uniform were not war criminals, they were fighting for their country.

    https://justpaste.it/wcm7

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    • Replies: @Avery
    One of my favourite pics.
    Nazi Schweinhund chunks of Invado-Nazi pork ready to fertilize the rich Russian soil.
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6a/Stalingrad-dead_bodies.jpg

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!
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  205. Avery says:
    @L.K
    Tsc, tsc, Latvian Woman, everybody wants to be victims of the evil natzee cannibals these days, even you guys eh! Put as much distance between u and the natzee beasts eh?
    Hahaha

    Wrong approach, lady. Were I a Latvian, and were I confronted by a dishonest imbecile and liar, such as this pathetic character, avery, I would simply state the basic facts;

    The USSR invaded and annexed Latvia so when later on the German military defeated and kicked the red army out, naturally enough, many Latvians saw the Germans as liberators.
    This even happened in many parts of the Ukraine, which had suffered horribly under the red Terror.
    Germans enter Riga 1941:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryrRcDTu3bs

    Naturally, when the war turned against Germany on the Eastern Front, the latvians who wished to fight and defend their homeland against a new Soviet re-occupation, had to depend on the Germans for training, weapons, etc. This was done and the Latvians fought bravely.

    Young Latvian soldiers like these in Waffen SS uniform were not war criminals, they were fighting for their country.
    https://justpaste.it/wcm7

    One of my favourite pics.
    Nazi Schweinhund chunks of Invado-Nazi pork ready to fertilize the rich Russian soil.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

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  206. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    What - would you kick out us poor dhimmis? Apparently you didn't read the text of the article (understandable - it was a long read) I linked to from the capable Malaysian scholar Shaykh al-Akiti (db) - highlights on how classical scholars might qualify our situation...
    "We say: It is clear that the countries in the Union are non-Muslim states, except for Turkey or Bosnia, for example, if they are a part of the Union. The status of the Muslims who reside and are born in non-Muslim states is the reverse of the above non-Muslim status in a Muslim state: al-Muslim bi-dhimmati l-kâfir [a Muslim in the care of a non-Muslim state] and from our own Muslim and religious perspective, whether we like it or not, there are similarities to the status of a guest which should not be forgotten.
    There is precedent for this status in our Law. The answer to your question is that they should as a practical matter remain in these countries, and if applicable, learn to cure the schizophrenic cultural condition in which they may find themselves - whether of torn identity in their souls or of dissociation from the general society. If they cannot do so, but find instead that their surroundings are incompatible with the life they feel they must lead, then it is recommended for them to leave and reside in a Muslim state."

    Peace.

    Interesting, thanks. Yes, from what Europeans tell me, the immigrants behave themselves as anything but courteous guests, they lost any goodwill they might have had, only leftist parties want them (for cynical, political reasons). The US has probably skimmed the top more in terms of quality of immigrants, but I’ve heard from whites in Michigan that the Arabs there are often very unpleasant to locals.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    Regarding Muslims under non-Muslim foreign rule, a more propitious example would be the Bosniaks in Austria-Hungary (a state that already had plenty of experience managing various ethnic and religious feuds).
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  207. LK, unfortunately, things were not as simple or ideal as you post. First of all, no foreign invasion is acceptable and, second, they went after Latvian nationalists (there was a nationalist resistance) and even arrested one of our ex-president’s son (who wasn’t even a leftist). Above all, they had no right to mobilize our men (it was also a huge number – genetically it was a big waste for us).

    The Die Deutsche Wochenschau video you posted – you can find equivalents from many countries (plus this was probably filmed in the beginning when people still believed we could get our own government back like we did prior to 1939). How come nobody talks about Norway that had a real NS government (Nationalsamling)? And by the way, general Vlasov even wore the St George’s ribbon – the so called “Colorado beetle” that the Russians wear on May 9 these days.

    The shootings of Jews happened 2 years before the Legion was formed. They had problems recruiting shooters, even despite the communist terror of 1940. And they used buckets of vodka. I already acknowledged that there was a group of Latvians terrorizing Belorussians. It’s very sad, because those people are probably related to us genetically.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am not at all ashamed of the Latvian Legion (the field troops) and I’m not against the Nazi invasion for PC reasons. There was just too much damage from their occupation. And calling us Nazis is just an excuse to mess with us in the future (“nedabitye” – the unfinished ones which is absolute nonsense). They don’t say this stuff about Norwegians, do they…

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    • Replies: @Konga
    Tell me, dear: what "Latvian" breed are you from, Livonian or Kurlander?
    Just for my info.
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  208. Marcus says:
    @Marcus
    Interesting, thanks. Yes, from what Europeans tell me, the immigrants behave themselves as anything but courteous guests, they lost any goodwill they might have had, only leftist parties want them (for cynical, political reasons). The US has probably skimmed the top more in terms of quality of immigrants, but I've heard from whites in Michigan that the Arabs there are often very unpleasant to locals.

    Regarding Muslims under non-Muslim foreign rule, a more propitious example would be the Bosniaks in Austria-Hungary (a state that already had plenty of experience managing various ethnic and religious feuds).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Yes, the Hapsburgs were not bad actually. Other examples come to mind; various Muslim ethnicities under the Chinese dynasties, Tatars under the Russians, Muslims under various Spanish kingdoms until the fall of Granada, Muslims living under Crusader states, and the most recent one (to my knowledge) the fall of the Delhi Sultanate and the Muslims living in India. If you look at the article by Shaykh Al-Akiti (db), he mentions how in certain circumstances (like the ones I mentioned), it is preferable for Muslims to pay jizya to non-Muslims if they are allowed to practice their religion and granted safety (as stated in a fatwa by Imam al-Kurdi [ra], a pillar in the transmission of the Shafi'i school - http://shafiifiqh.com/3/46/a-brief-outline-of-the-shafi-i-school-s-transmission):
    "Insofar as it is possible for Muslims to practice their religion openly with what they can have power over, and they are not afraid of any threat [fitna] to their religion if they pay tax to the non-Muslims, it is permissible for them to reside there. It is also permissible to pay them the tax as a requirement of it [residence]; rather, it is obligatory [wâjib] to pay them the tax for fear of their causing harm to the Muslims. The ruling about the non-Muslims at war [with a Muslim state] as mentioned above, because they protect the Muslims [in their territory], is that it would not be permissible for the Muslims to murder them or to steal from them."
    Hanafi is the same (see Imam Sarakhsi's al-Mabsut). You can look, but I doubt you'll find anything different in the Maliki school.

    After that comes our era when non-Muslim countries are actually allowing (sometimes) inviting Muslims to live among them. This is another very quick but interesting read on the subject:
    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/fiqh.htm

    But, no doubt, the Muslims have an obligation to behave well in non-Muslim lands (as my teachers have taught me); as I've cited before (and above), the classical medieval scholarship emphasized the necessity to abide by the covenant of protection and the laws of the land and not commit treachery. If the Muslims are proving themselves to be a liability, then we are deluded and simply living on borrowed time. When my wife and I learned about the incident in Nice, France, we both agreed that if we started to get a hint that any of our sons was getting radicalized and we could not talk him out of it, it would be far, far more preferable to turn him into the authorities for his safety and that of others than him committing mass murder and dealing with the consequences in the next life.

    Peace.

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  209. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Regarding Muslims under non-Muslim foreign rule, a more propitious example would be the Bosniaks in Austria-Hungary (a state that already had plenty of experience managing various ethnic and religious feuds).

    Yes, the Hapsburgs were not bad actually. Other examples come to mind; various Muslim ethnicities under the Chinese dynasties, Tatars under the Russians, Muslims under various Spanish kingdoms until the fall of Granada, Muslims living under Crusader states, and the most recent one (to my knowledge) the fall of the Delhi Sultanate and the Muslims living in India. If you look at the article by Shaykh Al-Akiti (db), he mentions how in certain circumstances (like the ones I mentioned), it is preferable for Muslims to pay jizya to non-Muslims if they are allowed to practice their religion and granted safety (as stated in a fatwa by Imam al-Kurdi [ra], a pillar in the transmission of the Shafi’i school – http://shafiifiqh.com/3/46/a-brief-outline-of-the-shafi-i-school-s-transmission):
    “Insofar as it is possible for Muslims to practice their religion openly with what they can have power over, and they are not afraid of any threat [fitna] to their religion if they pay tax to the non-Muslims, it is permissible for them to reside there. It is also permissible to pay them the tax as a requirement of it [residence]; rather, it is obligatory [wâjib] to pay them the tax for fear of their causing harm to the Muslims. The ruling about the non-Muslims at war [with a Muslim state] as mentioned above, because they protect the Muslims [in their territory], is that it would not be permissible for the Muslims to murder them or to steal from them.”
    Hanafi is the same (see Imam Sarakhsi’s al-Mabsut). You can look, but I doubt you’ll find anything different in the Maliki school.

    After that comes our era when non-Muslim countries are actually allowing (sometimes) inviting Muslims to live among them. This is another very quick but interesting read on the subject:

    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/fiqh.htm

    But, no doubt, the Muslims have an obligation to behave well in non-Muslim lands (as my teachers have taught me); as I’ve cited before (and above), the classical medieval scholarship emphasized the necessity to abide by the covenant of protection and the laws of the land and not commit treachery. If the Muslims are proving themselves to be a liability, then we are deluded and simply living on borrowed time. When my wife and I learned about the incident in Nice, France, we both agreed that if we started to get a hint that any of our sons was getting radicalized and we could not talk him out of it, it would be far, far more preferable to turn him into the authorities for his safety and that of others than him committing mass murder and dealing with the consequences in the next life.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Marcus
    Thanks, yeah the Muslims under generals like Ma Bu Fang were probably Chiang Kai-Shek's most reliable troops. In the same time period the Soviets Central Asian troops performed ably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Bufang
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  210. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Yes, the Hapsburgs were not bad actually. Other examples come to mind; various Muslim ethnicities under the Chinese dynasties, Tatars under the Russians, Muslims under various Spanish kingdoms until the fall of Granada, Muslims living under Crusader states, and the most recent one (to my knowledge) the fall of the Delhi Sultanate and the Muslims living in India. If you look at the article by Shaykh Al-Akiti (db), he mentions how in certain circumstances (like the ones I mentioned), it is preferable for Muslims to pay jizya to non-Muslims if they are allowed to practice their religion and granted safety (as stated in a fatwa by Imam al-Kurdi [ra], a pillar in the transmission of the Shafi'i school - http://shafiifiqh.com/3/46/a-brief-outline-of-the-shafi-i-school-s-transmission):
    "Insofar as it is possible for Muslims to practice their religion openly with what they can have power over, and they are not afraid of any threat [fitna] to their religion if they pay tax to the non-Muslims, it is permissible for them to reside there. It is also permissible to pay them the tax as a requirement of it [residence]; rather, it is obligatory [wâjib] to pay them the tax for fear of their causing harm to the Muslims. The ruling about the non-Muslims at war [with a Muslim state] as mentioned above, because they protect the Muslims [in their territory], is that it would not be permissible for the Muslims to murder them or to steal from them."
    Hanafi is the same (see Imam Sarakhsi's al-Mabsut). You can look, but I doubt you'll find anything different in the Maliki school.

    After that comes our era when non-Muslim countries are actually allowing (sometimes) inviting Muslims to live among them. This is another very quick but interesting read on the subject:
    http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/fiqh.htm

    But, no doubt, the Muslims have an obligation to behave well in non-Muslim lands (as my teachers have taught me); as I've cited before (and above), the classical medieval scholarship emphasized the necessity to abide by the covenant of protection and the laws of the land and not commit treachery. If the Muslims are proving themselves to be a liability, then we are deluded and simply living on borrowed time. When my wife and I learned about the incident in Nice, France, we both agreed that if we started to get a hint that any of our sons was getting radicalized and we could not talk him out of it, it would be far, far more preferable to turn him into the authorities for his safety and that of others than him committing mass murder and dealing with the consequences in the next life.

    Peace.

    Thanks, yeah the Muslims under generals like Ma Bu Fang were probably Chiang Kai-Shek’s most reliable troops. In the same time period the Soviets Central Asian troops performed ably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Bufang

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Don't forget the Bosniak divisions under the Hapsburgs:
    "Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War."
    http://www.naval-military-press.com/emperor-s-bosniaks-the-bosnian-herzegovinian-troops-in-the-k.-u.-k.-army.html

    "The Bosnian regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal Army were men who never lost a fight."
    http://www.thomaswictor.com/the-best-soldiers-of-world-war-i-were-muslim/

    Peace.
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  211. Talha says:
    @Marcus
    Thanks, yeah the Muslims under generals like Ma Bu Fang were probably Chiang Kai-Shek's most reliable troops. In the same time period the Soviets Central Asian troops performed ably. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ma_Bufang

    Don’t forget the Bosniak divisions under the Hapsburgs:
    “Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War.”

    http://www.naval-military-press.com/emperor-s-bosniaks-the-bosnian-herzegovinian-troops-in-the-k.-u.-k.-army.html

    “The Bosnian regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal Army were men who never lost a fight.”

    http://www.thomaswictor.com/the-best-soldiers-of-world-war-i-were-muslim/

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Marcus
    I think the end of the Habsburg dynasty was a great loss for central and Southern Europe. It wasn't perfect, but it provided a model of a religious and ethnically plural state that wasn't held together by police-state repression. Minorities were loyal to the crown and it safeguarded their rights. Wilson foolishly promoted the idea of "self-determination" despite it not being possible in such a diverse area without bloodshed.
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  212. Talha,

    You might find this interesting. We have Lipka Tatars in my sister country Lithuania. And they were specifically invited by the Lithuanian king Vytautas in 1398. Ancient Baltic paganism was still very much alive at that time, so that means these Muslims actually lived in a pagan European land. How wild is that? They participated in the Battle of Grunwald (Battle of Žalgiris) in 1410 against Teutonic Knights (which the Lithuanians won).

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35170834

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks so much, LW. That is really fascinating - and the native architecture of the mosques reminds me of the very native architecture of the mosques that I've seen in places like Indonesia.

    The more I live, the more I realize how damaging the extremist strain in the Salafism/Wahhabi ideology has been.

    Peace.
    , @RobinG
    Thanks for that link. Very interesting.
    , @Konga
    Really?
    Still living in your "sister" country?
    Weren't they deported by Stalin?
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  213. Talha says:
    @Latvian woman
    Talha,

    You might find this interesting. We have Lipka Tatars in my sister country Lithuania. And they were specifically invited by the Lithuanian king Vytautas in 1398. Ancient Baltic paganism was still very much alive at that time, so that means these Muslims actually lived in a pagan European land. How wild is that? They participated in the Battle of Grunwald (Battle of Žalgiris) in 1410 against Teutonic Knights (which the Lithuanians won).

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35170834

    Thanks so much, LW. That is really fascinating – and the native architecture of the mosques reminds me of the very native architecture of the mosques that I’ve seen in places like Indonesia.

    The more I live, the more I realize how damaging the extremist strain in the Salafism/Wahhabi ideology has been.

    Peace.

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  214. Marcus says:
    @Talha
    Don't forget the Bosniak divisions under the Hapsburgs:
    "Feared by their enemies, respected by their comrades for their fighting spirit, the Bosnian-Herzegovinian troops were a reliable component of the Austro-Hungarian Army until the end of the First World War."
    http://www.naval-military-press.com/emperor-s-bosniaks-the-bosnian-herzegovinian-troops-in-the-k.-u.-k.-army.html

    "The Bosnian regiments of the Austro-Hungarian Imperial and Royal Army were men who never lost a fight."
    http://www.thomaswictor.com/the-best-soldiers-of-world-war-i-were-muslim/

    Peace.

    I think the end of the Habsburg dynasty was a great loss for central and Southern Europe. It wasn’t perfect, but it provided a model of a religious and ethnically plural state that wasn’t held together by police-state repression. Minorities were loyal to the crown and it safeguarded their rights. Wilson foolishly promoted the idea of “self-determination” despite it not being possible in such a diverse area without bloodshed.

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  215. RobinG says:
    @Latvian woman
    Talha,

    You might find this interesting. We have Lipka Tatars in my sister country Lithuania. And they were specifically invited by the Lithuanian king Vytautas in 1398. Ancient Baltic paganism was still very much alive at that time, so that means these Muslims actually lived in a pagan European land. How wild is that? They participated in the Battle of Grunwald (Battle of Žalgiris) in 1410 against Teutonic Knights (which the Lithuanians won).

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35170834

    Thanks for that link. Very interesting.

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  216. Talha says:

    Hey Marcus,

    Totally agree about the Hapsburgs – Will Lind is a huge fan of theirs. And I would argue, this was the case (to a lesser degree) with the Ottomans with the millet system:

    http://courses.washington.edu/disisme/Our%20Encyclopaedia/84135754-B01E-4A3A-BBA4-8BD129E3C331.html

    Though they only allowed non-Muslims to serve in the military very late into the game. The massacres beginning in response to the state losing ground politically and militarily also start late into the game (mid-1800s) and go into hyperdrive with Turkish nationalism (Young Turks) – there is a reason why Armenian nationalists specifically hunted down Young Turk leadership that had escaped the gallows. From a lecture I heard, the Ottomans were smart enough to split Iraq into separate Muslim millets comprised of Kurds, Sunnis and Shias (in addition to Yazidi, Orthodox Christian, etc.).

    I think the previous generations had a wiser approach to things; people like to live among similar people (for instance, even in the area I live, the Muslims of Chicago generally coalesce into geographic pockets; African American, Arab, Indo-Pak, Albanian/Bosnian [White converts usually pick wherever they want to fit in] – but we get along), forced integration is a stupid policy. That doesn’t mean people will automatically hate each other, rather a bit of distance sometimes provides people with a feeling of safety – ‘good fences make for good neighbors’.

    I guess the jury is still out on how to best organize a state with inevitable ethno-linguistic distinctions. In certain contexts, maybe it is best to grant leadership to one particular group if it is most capable and allow them the perks that come with it as long as they defend the state, safeguard the rights of other minorities, and allow the capable ones to rise; a case could be made for something like this in multi-ethnic Pakistan in making the Punjabis the standard-bearers instead of, say, the Balochis. Usually doesn’t work though without some kind of a monarchy to rally around (to undermine the micro divisions within the ethnic group).

    Peace.

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  217. L.K says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Putin is a touchy, inferiority complex ridden character whose main aspiration in life is to be recognized by Americans as an equal. This will never happen. He should either get serious or get out. His empty posturing will not help anybody.
     
    Forensic mental experiment. If you pull your gun on me and I will pull my 12-gauge Mossberg on you--guess what, we are going to be talking as equals. If you have some major character flaws you will become hysterical, delusional, bad-mouthed but that in no way will change the fact that we will be equal and I will have as much chance to blow your brains out as you will have to do the same to me. Russia is the only nation in the world which can wipe out US from the face of the Earth, moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity. Moreover, Russia is the only other nation in the world which can conventionally, that is without resorting to the use of nuclear weapons, strike US proper and create a whole number of 911 "equivalents" in many US urban centers and military installations. The reason for that is because Russia's real economic, industrial, scientific, military and other capacities make her the only nation on Earth capable to produce not only equal but sometimes vastly superior to US weapons. Hence the hysteria, lies, BS in Western MSM and "elites" because no matter what they say they either know or sense that this "unequal" to them (in their incompetent opinion) Russia can very effectively and very equally make them think otherwise. This explanation is on fingers, so to speak--the level reserved for people brainwashed with propaganda and having very limited knowledge of issues which are crucial for the new emerging power balance. I will omit here the issue of war records comparison since, indeed, Russia here is not "equal", she is in the league of her own and that too adds to Western distress. Did I explain it well or should I go deeper into the issue of "equality"?;-)

    smoothie: “moreover, Russia is the only nation on the Earth which can conventionally defeat US (NATO) in her immediate geographic vicinity.”

    Nonsense. I can think of at least another country, China. It actually fought ZUSA to a draw back in the 50s, when it was a very backward third world country.

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  218. L.K says:
    @Marcus
    Right, but many Muslims believe that it's haram to stay in an infidel land when any Muslim land is available. Anyway, I'm not going to complain when they leave our countries even if it's for a bad cause.

    Hmmm… I don’t consider Syria to be “Muslim land”.

    It is one of the cradles of Christianity and some of the most ancient Christian communities reside in Syria.
    Of course you don’t care about any of that, as long as these radicals leave the “West”, which is largely responsible for the spread of this demented death cult of salafism/waahabism, that is fine by you… a pretty depraved position.

    Interestingly, in many Western countries, Salafism is tolerated, in the name of “Democracy”; For example, in Belgium:

    At the same time, in Belgium, as in many other EU pseudo democracies, an open debate of alleged historical facts re to the holocau$t will land you in trouble with the law. Funny, eh?

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  219. Konga says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    I graduated from military academy with advanced degree in naval engineering and served about 11 years in Soviet Armed Forces.

     

    Is that why Russian navy is inferior to the US navy? You desperate attempts to impress me are ridiculous. Since I have not studied the military pseudo science I cannot answer but my lifelong experience and the ability to observe and reason brought me to the following conclusion. The whole of so called military pseudo science boils down to this. A general sends in a thousand troops and once they are all killed sends in another thousand. The general who loses all of his troops first concedes defeat and writes a memoir. I have a better proposal for you. Hang on here for another two years and than we can compare notes who was closer to the truth. You with all that education and books published in US or me the uneducated amateur.

    It’s obvious you’re seriously hurt, “Regnum”. Why don’t you just shut up? We all saw you’ve lost.

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  220. Konga says:
    @Latvian woman
    Talha,

    You might find this interesting. We have Lipka Tatars in my sister country Lithuania. And they were specifically invited by the Lithuanian king Vytautas in 1398. Ancient Baltic paganism was still very much alive at that time, so that means these Muslims actually lived in a pagan European land. How wild is that? They participated in the Battle of Grunwald (Battle of Žalgiris) in 1410 against Teutonic Knights (which the Lithuanians won).

    http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-35170834

    Really?
    Still living in your “sister” country?
    Weren’t they deported by Stalin?

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  221. Konga says:
    @Latvian woman
    LK, unfortunately, things were not as simple or ideal as you post. First of all, no foreign invasion is acceptable and, second, they went after Latvian nationalists (there was a nationalist resistance) and even arrested one of our ex-president's son (who wasn't even a leftist). Above all, they had no right to mobilize our men (it was also a huge number - genetically it was a big waste for us).

    The Die Deutsche Wochenschau video you posted - you can find equivalents from many countries (plus this was probably filmed in the beginning when people still believed we could get our own government back like we did prior to 1939). How come nobody talks about Norway that had a real NS government (Nationalsamling)? And by the way, general Vlasov even wore the St George's ribbon - the so called "Colorado beetle" that the Russians wear on May 9 these days.

    The shootings of Jews happened 2 years before the Legion was formed. They had problems recruiting shooters, even despite the communist terror of 1940. And they used buckets of vodka. I already acknowledged that there was a group of Latvians terrorizing Belorussians. It's very sad, because those people are probably related to us genetically.

    Don't get me wrong, I am not at all ashamed of the Latvian Legion (the field troops) and I'm not against the Nazi invasion for PC reasons. There was just too much damage from their occupation. And calling us Nazis is just an excuse to mess with us in the future ("nedabitye" - the unfinished ones which is absolute nonsense). They don't say this stuff about Norwegians, do they...

    Tell me, dear: what “Latvian” breed are you from, Livonian or Kurlander?
    Just for my info.

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  222. We will learn from Vytautas and host some Chechens to help us out and they can use the old mosque!

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