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Led by Poland, the European “House Negroes” Compete for the Darwin Awards
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And now, when all of these benefits and all this aid has been lost and discarded, England, leading the France offers to guarantee the integrity of Poland — the same in Poland, which just six months ago with greed hyena appetite took part in the robbery and destruction of the Czechoslovak state.

-Winston Churchill, The Gathering Storm

We really live in a crazy world. In preparation for the next NATO summit in Warsaw, already announced as ‘landmark summit‘, kids in Poland will be exposed to 4 hours of NATO propaganda a week for the next two months. Apparently, the Poles believe that their safety will be greatly enhanced if they succeed in creating the strongest possible tensions between NATO and Russia. Either that, or they think that the Russians will be absolutely terrified, that they will return the Crimea to the Ukronazi junta in Kiev, abandon the Donbass and unilaterally demilitarize.

There is nothing new here. Poland – the country which Winston Churchill called a “greedy hyena” – has a long history of trying to attack Russia when Russia is at her weakest, and the greatest Polish “heroes” are famous for attacking Russia in the times of internal trouble. Except that this time around Russia is not weak and the Russian people are solidly behind the Kremlin.

You could say that the Russian bear is utterly unimpressed by the Polish hyena, especially when it hides behind the American eagle to bark at Russia.

The Polish view of history is nothing short of bizarre. For example, Polish politicians constantly blame the Soviet Union for the 1939 Soviet-German non-aggression Treaty (aka “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact”) of 1939. They conveniently “forget” that a full five years before 1939 Poland was the first to sign the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (for some reason not known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact”). Speaking of Piłsudski, take a look at this (very politically correct) summary of his life and actions and you will see that having megalomaniacal Fascist national heroes is not only a Ukrainian feature.

Apparently, history taught the Poles absolutely nothing.

They are hardly alone.

SakerRussiaGoogle Most of Eastern Europe seems to be seized by a militaristic frenzy and a genuine fear that the Russians are about to invade. Just enter “Baltic invasion drills” in your favorite search engine and see for yourself how the imperial propaganda machine is constantly discussing whether an (apparently imminent) Russian invasion can be stopped or not and how the US tanks will save the Baltics from the Russkies.

Russians, who are constantly informed about these developments which are discussed on an almost daily basis in the Russian media, are absolutely baffled by this paranoid hysteria. In fact, they have a hard time believing that anybody could take that kind of nonsense seriously.

At the same time, however, the Russians are also realizing that what is taking place now is very much like what preceded the German invasion of the Soviet Union: a mix of rabidly russophobic rhetoric and an increasing concentration of military forces along the eastern borders of the Soviet Union. So even though the notion of Poland or anyone else actually preparing for a Russian invasion elicits only baffled reactions and giggles in Russia, the Russians are also assuming that the current militarization is only the first step in a much longer and larger process and are actively preparing for war too.

What will happen next is hardly a surprise: the toxic mix of US Neocons and East-European russophobes will result in first and foremost a lot of paranoid rhetoric and grandstanding and in an increase of US and NATO forces in Eastern Europe. That, in turn, will result in the inevitable increase of Russian military capabilities directed at NATO, which will give the NATO officials even more reasons to speak of a “Russian threat” and give more paranoid nightmares to the East-Europeans.

There is no way to deny that this is a huge victory for the US Neocons: they have finally created a situation in which

  1. East-Europeans are so terrified that they are unable to thinking logically.
  2. West Europeans are maybe capable of thinking, but cannot take any action.
  3. All EU countries will increase their military spending and purchase mostly US weapon systems (to meet NATO standards); the US MIC will make a killing.
  4. NATO will find a new (old) role for itself.
  5. Russia will be further decoupled form the EU, especially economically.
  6. Europeans will be further terrified by predictions of war and further convinced that NATO is the indispensable alliance lead by the indispensable nation.
  7. Russia will be further surrounded by new US protectorates (Finland and Georgia are probably next)

If this is a huge success for the Empire, this is also a huge failure for Russia.

However, I don’t think that anybody could have prevented this outcome. Let’s be honest here: there is nobody for the Russians to speak to in Europe (except, maybe, Hungarian President Orban). The Russians tried everything they possibly could to try to revive a modicum of common sense into the European politicians, but to no avail: the Europeans simply don’t have the brains, the spine or the balls to dare to have an opinion of their own. Instead, their opinion is whatever the White House says.

I know, the argument will be that its only the leaders, that the people of Europe don’t support these policies. But how is it that millions of Europeans took to the streets during the so-called “Euromissile crisis” or to oppose the war in Iraq, but have absolutely nothing to say about their sovereignty being turned into a farce, about their leaders supporting a Nazi regime in Kiev and about being used by the USA a cannon fodder in possible continental war?

I can only conclude that the Europeans deserve the leaders they have.

They also all deserve a collective Darwin Award. Especially the East-Europeans who have painted a bullseye on their heads just to please of Uncle Sam. One Polish official denounced the “Negro mentality” of his colleagues and one ex-foreign minister even spoke of “giving oral sex and getting nothing in return”, a very apt image indeed. But these outbursts lead to nothing. If McCain compared Russia to a “gas station masquerading as a country” then I would compare EU as a brothel masquerading as a continental alliance, a brothel where Americans get serviced for free. “Despised by all, feared by none” could become the new EU motto.

ORDER IT NOW

At the NATO summit in Warsaw the Americans will try hard to treat their EU NATO allies with absolute courtesy and respect, but in reality they will view them exactly as what Malcolm X called the “house negro”. Let me quote him in full as it is a perfect description of the modern European:

So you have two types of Negro. The old type and the new type. Most of you know the old type. When you read about him in history during slavery he was called “Uncle Tom.” He was the house Negro. And during slavery you had two Negroes. You had the house Negro and the field Negro. The house Negro usually lived close to his master. He dressed like his master. He wore his master’s second-hand clothes. He ate food that his master left on the table. And he lived in his master’s house–probably in the basement or the attic–but he still lived in the master’s house. So whenever that house Negro identified himself, he always identified himself in the same sense that his master identified himself. When his master said, “We have good food,” the house Negro would say, “Yes, we have plenty of good food.” “We” have plenty of good food. When the master said that “we have a fine home here,” the house Negro said, “Yes, we have a fine home here.” When the master would be sick, the house Negro identified himself so much with his master he’d say, “What’s the matter boss, we sick?” His master’s pain was his pain. And it hurt him more for his master to be sick than for him to be sick himself. When the house started burning down, that type of Negro would fight harder to put the master’s house out than the master himself would. But then you had another Negro out in the field. The house Negro was in the minority. The masses–the field Negroes were the masses. They were in the majority. When the master got sick, they prayed that he’d die. If his house caught on fire, they’d pray for a wind to come along and fan the breeze. If someone came to the house Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” naturally that Uncle Tom would say, “Go where? What could I do without boss? Where would I live? How would I dress? Who would look out for me?” That’s the house Negro. But if you went to the field Negro and said, “Let’s go, let’s separate,” he wouldn’t even ask you where or how. He’d say, “Yes, let’s go.” And that one ended right there.

Is that not a prefect description of the “new European” towards the USA?

And I am quite certain that US officers will have far more respect for their Russian “adversaries” than for their NATO “allies” (I have often noted that attitude in US servicemen).

Still, I am not losing all hope.

First, I want to believe that the Neocons can still be defeated in the USA and that what I call the “old Anglo guard” can give them the boot. Second, I have not lost hope in two European nations: France and Italy. I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that the French and the Italians are, in Europe, those who are least influenced by the imperial propaganda machine, maybe because of their complex and rich history, who knows? I think that there is a typically Latin (I mean that culturally, not religiously) spirit of resistance and revolt which has not been completely blotted out of the French and Italian people. I might be very naïve of course, and totally wrong. I had high hopes for the Greeks, and all they could muster was the resistance power of a wet firecracker. Even the always proud Serbs appear to have been put down on their knees, at least for the time being. It is a very sad spectacle indeed.

In the meantime, there are signs that Russia is coming out of the recession. The Russian armed forces are planning over 2000 military exercises just for 2016. As for the Russian people, they still overwhelmingly support Putin. After the upcoming NATO summit in Warsaw, this popularity is likely to soar even higher.

The Saker

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: NATO, Russia 
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  1. “For example, Polish politicians constantly blame the Soviet Union for the 1939 Soviet-German non-aggression Treaty (aka “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact”) of 1939. They conveniently “forget” that a full five years before 1939 Poland was the first to sign the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty”

    Stopped reading there…somehow the Saker seems to have “forgotten” that Molotov-Rippentropp included secret provisions for the division of Poland between Germany and the Soviet Union…comparing it to Poland’s 1934 non-aggression-treaty with Germany is absurd. From 1939-1941 the Soviet Union was effectively an ally of Germany…NKVD and Gestapo cooperated in Poland, and of course the Soviet Union had its own programme of murdering Polish elites/deporting them to the Gulag.
    I don’t think I’m a Russophobe, but when one’s confronted with the dishonest, demented ramblings of the Saker I can understand people who are.

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  2. @German_reader

    “However one spins the crystal and tries to look into the future from the point of view of 23 August 1939, it is difficult to see what other course Soviet Russia could have followed. The Soviet apprehensions of a European alliance against Russia were exaggerated, though not groundless. But, quite apart from this – given the Polish refusal of Soviet aid, given too the British policy of drawing out negotiations in Moscow without seriously striving for a conclusion – neutrality, with or without a formal pact, was the most that Soviet diplomacy could attain; and limitation of German gains in Poland and the Baltic was the inducement which made a formal pact attractive.” – A.J.P. Taylor: The Origins of the Second World War, Hamish Hamilton, 1961

    You really need to study the context of the Soviet-German pact before you accuse others of demented ramblings.

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  3. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @German_reader

    Dear German Reader. I don’t know what they teach you in Germany but here is an opinion of one of the greatest Anglophone military historians, Commodore Of British Empire Correlli Barnett from his seminal The Collapse Of British Power. Enjoy.

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  4. 5371 says:
    @German_reader

    There’s nothing remotely absurd about the comparison. If there was supposed to be a united front against German expansionism, Poland had betrayed it before it even came into being. Poland was happy to take advantage of the Munich agreement to grab a chunk of Czechoslovakia. Poland even raised its own demands for overseas colonies to make the Mini-Me act more complete.

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  5. tbraton says:

    It is very interesting to see that there is not a whole lot of enthusiasm about NATO among the European countries, as evidenced by the fact that they are still looking for a country to lead the last of the four battalions being deployed in Poland and the three Baltic countries. This seems to be consistent with those polls about a year or so ago showing that every NATO in western Europe was opposed to going to the aid of the Eastern European NATO members should they be attacked by Russia. So much for the NATO pledge. As far as I am concerned, NATO lost its reason for being when the Soviet Union was dissolved, and NATO should have followed the USSR out the door.

    http://www.straitstimes.com/world/europe/nato-struggles-to-rally-allies-to-deter-resurgent-russia:

    “BRUSSELS • Six weeks before a critical summit meeting aimed at bolstering Nato’s deterrence against a resurgent Russia, the alliance is facing a long list of challenges.

    The first is to find a country to lead the last of four military units to be deployed in Poland and the three Baltic nations.”

    With respect to France and Italy, the article says the following: “Despite the growing threats, many European countries still resist strong measures to strengthen Nato. Many remain reluctant to increase military spending, despite past pledges. Some, like Italy, are cutting back. France is reverting to its traditional scepticism towards the alliance, which it sees as an instrument of US policy and an infringement on its sovereignty.”

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  6. tbraton says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    SmoothieX12, if it is not too burdensome, could you please post what comes after the “four or five”? Just one more page should suffice.

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  7. @Andrei Martyanov

    That excerpt doesn’t tell me anything except that Corelli Barnett thinks Polish behaviour in 1939 was foolish (don’t really get his argument from that brief excerpt…does he argue Poland should have been more accomodating of German demands for the corridor?)…so what? Doesn’t change the fact that the Soviet Union had a secret agreement with Germany for the division of Poland, then invaded Eastern Poland and committed massive crimes there. Which is totally incomparable to Poland’s 1934 non-aggression-pact which didn’t include provisions for invading other countries (let alone committing mass murders/mass deportations like the Soviet Union did in 1939-1941).

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  8. voicum says:
    @German_reader

    german_reader,you,sir do not deserve a comment.as you stated you did not read,let alone comprehend, the article .

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  9. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    Russia will be further decoupled form the EU, especially economically.

    This, I would argue, is a huge win for Russia in a long run. Judging by the latest developments–a really huge one. I mean economic part. As per “cultural” part–erecting a cultural wall doesn’t seem such a bad idea, when one considers current EU “values”. Lest they get transplanted to Russia’s soil. God forbids.

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  10. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @tbraton

    My scans of selected pages by Barnett are at home PC. I am not at home right now. I’ll try, once I get there. But my advice is to simply check out this incredible book (a large one) and read it in full. It is a seminal work of history which also explains why Anglo societies degenerate.

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  11. Aixa says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    England wanted to appease Germany by giving Germany rich awards – polish lands.
    No wonder that polish government refused.
    If England wanted that much to avoid war it could give Germany some English land, like Kent for example.
    It could show Mr. Hitler that he might achieve more if he refrained from force.

    As for polish government, it predicted that Germany would fail totally, loose war and with that Poland could grab vast territories from Germany. And this just happened and Poland did it.

    It was rational for Poland to start a war and gain territories in the West.
    Just some polish politicians outsmarted German and English idiot politicians.
    Instead of blaming Poles, you should blame yourself of your idiocy.

    The same with NATO and Russia.
    Poles know, who are the Americans, who are the Russians , Germans, English and French.
    And Poles play them the same way as in 1939.
    Very funny to see Putin’s Russia and NATO all going frenzy and spending up milliards because some low level polish official is just talking them to do it and lol when reporting to polish PM.

    Nothing changes in Europe.

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  12. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @German_reader

    Polish folie de grandeur. No comments to the rest.

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  13. attonn says:
    @German_reader

    First of all, nobody had ever presented any copy of Ribbentropp – Molotov Pact. It most likely never existed.

    And second, USSR simply reclaimed the land that Poland seized by aggression during Russian Civil War. Soviets didn’t grab what shouldn’t have belonged to them in the first place.

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  14. attonn says:

    Polish behavior – poking the bear, then pleading for American protection when consequences loom – is beyond revolting.

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  15. Mulegino1 says:

    Is Poland about to play the role of dupe and sacrificial lamb for the cause of Atlanticist-Zionist hegemony yet again?

    The Second World War was begun and fought primarily for the purpose of destroying Germany as an independent nation, in large part because Hitler’s miraculous economic recovery, monetary policies and the institution of the barter trade, which were in essence an end run around and potentially mortal threat to the world financial domination by The City of London and Wall St. Although the current situation with the BRICS and the attempted encirclement of Russia is obviously an exact repetition, the two situations do share many eerie similarities.

    The cynical Anglo-French offer of military alliance to Poland was merely a tripwire to launch the war on a continental basis. The British War Party, (Churchill, Cooper, Hore Belishe, Anthony Eden, inter alia), the FDR administration (working behind the scenes), did everything in their power to encourage the Polish “Regime of Colonels” to act as intransigently and as bellicose as possible in the face of perfectly reasonable and moderate German proposals to reincorporate the 95% ethnic German (and Free City under League of Nations administration) Danzig into the Reich and a transportation corridor connecting East Prussia and Danzig with the rest of Germany. The diplomatic history leading up to the outbreak of war pretty much demolishes the ridiculous idea that Hitler was a bloodthirsty villain who wanted war and planned to conquer the world. I would be so bold as to say that Hitler did not want war at all, although when presented with it by Germany’s enemies as a fait accomplis, would fight it.

    Neither Hitler nor Stalin could be blamed for signing the Non-Aggression Pact; Poland was hardly the innocent and defenseless lamb set upon by raving wolves. From the short period after its national rebirth, the bellicose, virulently chauvinist policies of its leadership were well known to the world. It had involved itself in numerous conflicts inspired by its own leadership’s exaggerated sense of national power. I am sure Pilsudski’s victory over the Red Army at the gates of Warsaw had much to do with imbuing a sense of invincibility into the Polish military leadership, although the Marshal himself was smart enough not to get caught in a German-Soviet vise, as were his successors. I believe the German-Polish Non-Aggression Pact was signed in 1934.

    If the Polish leadership of today were of the caliber of Pilsudski, would it fail to perceive that the same, virtually identical forces, want to make dupes of the Poles again.

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  16. tbraton says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanks, SmoothieX12. No rush. Whenever you get a chance. I was just curious about the non-completed thought that the “four or five years” led to.

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  17. tbraton says:
    @tbraton

    SmoothieX12, the thought just occurred to me that it might be less work just to type out the completion of the sentence on the next page. That’s all I’m interested in.

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  18. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Aixa

    That had to be the most expensive land purchase in history.

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  19. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @tbraton

    No problem.

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  20. utu says:

    Russia doesn’t have a good propaganda machine. They have good points to score but they still sound wooden and predictable like TASS or Pravda during Brezhnev times. Just look at Sputnik, RT or Russia Insider. I think they just do not have a knack for it or somebody is sabotaging their efforts. So when I read Saker I keep wondering: Is it a lack of talent or is he a saboteur? Russia has a story to be told that deserves a much better story teller.

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  21. “And I am quite certain that US officers will have far more respect for their Russian “adversaries” than for their NATO “allies”.”

    I can’t go so far as to disparage the NATO allies, but in the ’80s we did have a certain grudging respect for the ‘adversaries’ or ‘opposing forces’. I don’t recall I or anyone around me ever referring to them as enemies, which goes a long way to explaining why missiles did not fly so many years ago when the world was seemingly on a hair-trigger. To be frank, the bipolar world of the 70s and 80s was a lot more stable than today’s unipolar world.

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  22. Catiline says:

    NATO’s behaviour towards Russia certainly deserves criticism and rectification. But Russia and it’s dopey apologist like “Saker” sure play into NATO’s hands most easily.

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  23. @utu

    deserves a much better story teller

    For this particular article, I agree. The House Negro example may be apt, but it can only resonate badly with American readers. Liberals think nothing can fairly be compared to racism, and conservatives aren’t going to see the world through the eyes of Malcolm X.

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  24. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @utu

    Russia doesn’t have a good propaganda machine.

    Today, Russia doesn’t need a propaganda “machine”, she merely needs the reality to be presented. This is much simpler work than propaganda. And then again, neocons and their media are so incompetent that, sometimes, allowing Russian, American or any other real professionals to simply talk is more than enough.

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  25. schmenz says:
    @utu

    Agreed.

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  26. Avery says:
    @Mulegino1

    {The diplomatic history leading up to the outbreak of war pretty much demolishes the ridiculous idea that Hitler was a bloodthirsty villain who wanted war and planned to conquer the world.}

    If Hitler didn’t want war, then why did the Wehrmacht under orders of Hitler invade USSR?
    Why did Nazi invaders kill and murder ~10,000,000 Soviet civilians, mostly Slavs?
    (not counting military losses, another ~15 million)
    Is Lebensraum a myth?

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  27. anon • Disclaimer says:

    The Polish political elites must be the most brain-dead in all of Europe. Why in 1939 they took the ludicrous British territorial guarantees seriously is inexplicable to me. There was essentially nothing the U.K. could have done to save Poland as the Poles should have instantly realized. Today it should be clear that Russia is no threat and cannot even touch Polish soil except from the tiny exclave to the north. Poland has probably never been safer from attack by any European country then at any time in its history.

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  28. 5371 says:
    @anon

    The explanation seems to be that they really thought the German regime was fragile and would collapse if Poland made no concessions. No doubt they knew of the unhappiness among the German generals when it looked like the Czech crisis would lead to war, and failed to see how the final outcome of that crisis had changed calculations.

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  29. gruff says:

    ctrl-f “katyn”

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  30. tbraton says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanks, SmoothieX12.

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  31. @Avery

    you and Alexander oughta get a room

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  32. @anon

    Edwin Black in “The Transfer Agreement” is rather surprisingly forthright in recording the extent to which Jewish zionists enflamed Polish public opinion against Germany. Black notes that Polish military forces threatened an invasion of Germany very early on — within months of Hitler’s appointment as chancellor.

    The anti-German propaganda steadily increased as did the military threats. Black wrote that it was the stated tactic of zionist Jews to conflate the Danzig conflict with what Jews considered “persecution of Jews” in order to incite non-Jewish Poles to intensified hatred of Germans.

    wrt “persecution of Jews” — other Jewish authors report that In the time-period from NSDAP aggregation of power in the first quarter of 1933 until the onset of war, Sept 1 (or 3, re British) 1939, Jews in Germany were protected from physical violence by the NSDAP, to the extent that no Jews were even sent to concentration camp until mid-November 1938. Even then, most of those Jews were released, only Jews identified as Communists were retained in camps.

    The role of Jews in exacerbating the situation that led to war, with what appears to all intents and purposes to have the an eagerness for a hot war, absolutely must be factored into the equation.

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  33. HdC says:
    @Avery

    Please read a book entitled ICEBREAKER by Viktor Suyerov (sp?).

    It explains why Germany really had no choice but to invade the Soviet Union in order to forestall the SU invasion of Germany and all of Western Europe, which had been planned to commence one month after the German invasion. Consequently the German invasion was a preemptive attack in the truest sense of the definition.

    I would submit that a very large number of Soviet troops were murdered by their own rear-guard troops in order to stop retreat or surrender.

    Or they died in battle because of insufficient war material. Or through the stupidity of their commanders.

    I know it is politically correct to blame the Germans for all national and international ills in the world, but that doesn’t mean it is true or, that the thinking portion of the population swallows this nonsense. HdC

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  34. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Maybe those rabid Evangelical and Pentecostal Christians have stealthily taken over the West and are agitating Russia in the hopes that WWIII will commence and mushroom clouds will start blossoming over their cities so they can use the corpses of millions and millions to build that Stairway to Heaven.

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  35. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Greg Bacon

    so they can use the corpses of millions and millions to build that Stairway to Heaven.

    You have a point.

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  36. @HdC

    Duplicate from another thread (I know, SmoothieX12 will disagree):
    Dear Mr. Revusky:
    Thank you for your detailed comment on my humble post.
    Here is my answer to your

    Now, obviously, if Stalin was in fact planning an attack towards the West, and Hitler simply beat him to the punch, that very much makes one reconsider the conventional interpretation of the whole conflict.
    What is your view on Suvorov’s thesis? (I personally simply don’t know.)

    I.f.f.U.: Communist government (party, or any other name) of the USSR had this goal, both, explicitly declared and actually in the process of most energetic implementation:
    the annexing of Europe into their big communist State. You can trace it from the activity of German and other European communists: they tried to do that in Germany in 1919, in Hungary in 1919; Slovak Soviet Republic was proclaimed in June of 1919. In 1919 Lenin and Trotsky created for that puropose Comintern, short name of “Communist International”.
    Lenin died in 1924, Trotsky lost power struggle to Stalin around 1928, but the work of Comintern continued and was supported by enormous financial infusions.
    Two five-year plans, 1927-32 and 1933-37 had the goal of industrialization of the USSR, and that goal was achieved, sure with the use of Western technology and with the help of Western engineers. The cost, both financial, and human, of such rapid industrialization, was robbery and Gulag-type slavery of peoples of USSR, famines and physical killing. Especially brutal was de-kulakization of 1930-1932, when about 20 million people “kulaks” (successful peasants) and their families, were moved to Siberia and died there almost to 100%; “Golodomor” (famine of 1934-35, especially strong in Ukraine), etc. Third five-year plan, 1938-41, was essentially militarization of industry. But even during first two five-year periods, 21,573 warplanes were produced.
    What is important to understand, Suvorov is not just a spy. By his professional education and his work in Chief Intelligence Directorate (GRU) of Soviet Army he is military analyst. The aggressive intention of Stalin are illustrated, e.g., by abundance of airborne assault troops in pre-war years in Soviet Army — in numbers larger than in the rest of the world combined. But airborne assault troops are good for offensive, there is no reason to transport troops by parachutes in the defense of your own territory.
    Key event of in the initiation of WW 2 was signing of Moscow pact on 23 August 1939 (known also as Molotov-Ribbentrop pact), according to which Stalin and Hitler divided between them the countries and territories, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molotov%E2%80%93Ribbentrop_Pact . They also agreed to start military occupation of Poland in September of 1939. Before that, USSR and Germany did not have common border: Poland served as a buffer between them. Therefore sudden Soviet-German war was impossible before September of 1939. By hook and crook, Stalin delayed his action in Poland by couple of weeks, and so we all know now that it was Hitler, who “started” WW 2.
    All 1939-1941 was spent by Stalin’s USSR on further preparations to war. About a year after Moscow pact, Hitler understood that his defeat from Stalin’s offense would be inevitable. Feeble (and as we know now, unsuccessful) attempt to counter this threat was “Barbarossa plan”, December 1940.
    In the summer of 1941 Stalin concentrated large number of offensive (repeat: offensive) troops on that border, and planned to start his war on July 6. Hitler concentrated his offensive troops on the other side of the same border, and started the action on June 22 of 1941. Huge losses of Soviet Army in the Summer of 1941 were exactly due to offensive disposition of Soviet troops. If Stalin somehow would manage to start first, the same disadvantage would fell upon Hitler’s troops.

    To stop my description of Suvorov’s studies, I conclude with this definite advice. Buy Suvorov’s book(s), read it (them). On Amazon the book is about $ 20.00:

    http://www.amazon.com/Chief-Culprit-Stalins-Grand-Design/dp/1591148065/

    I can imagine that your (Revusky’s) impression of Suvorov’s work may be different from mine. Still: buy it and read it.

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  37. East-Europeans are so terrified that they are unable to thinking logically.

    Saker should have paid more attention to the map at the top. What he calls Eastern Europeans are actually Central Europeans. His claim about terrified population unable to think logically is an exaggeration based solely on Saker’s dislike of Central Europeans. I have lived for the last three years right in the middle of Central Europe and I have not met any terrified individuals. As far as their inability to think logically is concerned I would say that their ability to think remains unimpaired.

    If this is a huge success for the Empire, this is also a huge failure for Russia.

    How can that be? Under the leadership of infallible genius Putin, Russia goes from victory to victory as testified by many previous articles from this author.

    I can only conclude that the Europeans deserve the leaders they have.

    As Americans deserve theirs and that includes you Mr. Saker.

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  38. @Immigrant from former USSR

    You seem to know more than Hitler himself. In his very own words the attack on USSR was necessary in order to make Great Britain surrender by removing her one and only ally in Europe from the war. As far as USSR fighting capabilities were concerned, Hitler called USSR a giant on feet of clay. One would conclude from that description that he did not exactly consider the Russians as a serious military threat. In fact he planned to have the war with USSR concluded in less than five month. So keep your fairy tales about pre-emptive strike for children.

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  39. @Regnum Nostrum

    Esteemed Regnum Nostrum:
    I have addressed my reply to HdC, but now I will respond to you.

    GRU (Chief Intelligence Directorate of Soviet Army) retrieved in 1940-41 the information that
    1) German Army did not prepare winter sheep coats (овчиные шубы) or any other warm clothes for the campaign in Russia.
    2) German Army did not prepare winter type of oil for artillery and rifles (смазочные масла), oil adequate for winter conditions in Russia.
    Considering Germans as at least reasonable, GRU did not expect them to advance against USSR without said preparations.

    Now you tell me, who was smart to call USSR a giant on feet of clay and not to look at the geographical size of USSR: linear dimension about 7,200 km (4,500 land miles, along the geodesic.) Dividing 7,200 km by (5*30)=150 days, it would mean
    moving the front line of your troops
    with the continuous speed about 50 km per day
    unheard of, either in previous or even in subsequent wars.

    Disclaimer.
    In no ways am I trying to justify aggressive politics of Stalin’s USSR.
    I despise my own grand-aunt, who worked in Comintern with Béla Kun (Hungarian Communist leader) and was liquidated more or less simultaneously with him (around 1938.)
    But the goals of Comintern were promoted not only ideologically, but mostly in the military form: militarization, war preparation, etc., independently of my attitudes
    (the more so, I was not born at the time yet.)
    Respectfully yours, I.f.f.U.

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  40. @Regnum Nostrum

    In addition, just ask yourself, what was the speed of front line during Iraq-Coalition war of 2003 ?
    From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_invasion_of_Iraq :
    about 800 km of the linear size of Iraq, Date of war: 20 March – 1 May 2003 (40 days),
    800 / 40 = 20 km per day, with all modern technology.

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  41. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    At the same time, however, the Russians are also realizing that what is taking place now is very much like what preceded the German invasion of the Soviet Union: a mix of rabidly russophobic rhetoric and an increasing concentration of military forces along the eastern borders of the Soviet Union.

    What a pile of utter rubish! Poor peace loving, non-agressive russians vs. bloodthirsty, expansive East Europeans.
    Alright, I come to unz.com to read only Steve Sailer and Eamonn Fingleton anyway.

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  42. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    utter rubish!

    Rube-ish comments are a symptom of brain wasting from reading too much Sailer.

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  43. anowow says:

    The “old Anglo” guard died with Richard of Gloucester at Bosworth. No salvation on that front.

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  44. CK says:
    @landlubber

    Malcolm’s explanation was spot on. Liberals and conservatives have issues with reality so they try to wish reality away. Truth is as always a moveable feast. Malcolm’s truths are still true even when America does it ever uplifting neener neener at reality.

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  45. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Immigrant from former USSR

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  46. annamaria says:
    @Anonymous

    Have you found the word “NATO” in the article? – If yes, than you should look around this word to see something in effect “financed by the US” and “creeping towards encircling the Russian federation.”
    By the way, the millions of protesters against the Iraq War had been ridiculed, for being pussies, by the war-mongering class of war-profiteers. Don’t you admire the fantastic results of the Middle Eastern wars, such as the millions of refugees in Europe? It seems that the war-mongering class wants more of the same; hence the NATO’s maneuvers on the Russian borders. Here is the problem: the Yinon plan-inspred destruction of Iraq, Libya, and Syria have been producing the march of war refugees from the Middle East, as wells an avalanche of migrants from sub-Saharan Africa and elsewhere. The European Union is richly deserved this plague (though it should be the US paying for both the march and avalanche). But the NATO fox-trot at the Russian border could lead to a hot war that would end up the history of humankind. After the years of incessant provocations by the MIC’ lunatics, at some point, Russians will not have other options but to become aggressive.
    Read this idiot from AEI and weep: http://www.aei.org/publication/the-next-us-president-must-carry-a-big-stick/?utm_source

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  47. Kiza says:
    @landlubber

    You may be correct about US Neo-liberals and Neo-conservatives, they would see Saker’s comparison as totally un-PC and would not stop braying. But I fail to understand why you fall for utu’s trolling about Saker. Saker is not Russian propaganda in my opinion, Saker is a little Western entrepreneur who discovered that there is a niche in the information market for Russia-related analysis in good English. He is pro-Russian but he is not a propagandist paid by the Russians. If you want to understand Russia and avoid being bamboozled by the Western MSM propaganda.

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  48. It would be nice to get a final resolution of the European “condition” by having the US leave NATO for good. Either Britain, Germany, and France could work out their differences for the common good of all Europeans, or go their own ways in seeking a foreign policy with Russia. Or fight it out. And may the best country win. I, for one, would be content to deal with whatever power ended up on top. And I’m guessing it would be either Germany or Russia. And this would bring the circle back to where it should have ended at the conclusion of WW1.

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  49. Seraphim says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    @”Polish pride, obstinacy and folie de grandeur”.

    It was the same pride, obstinacy and folie de grandeur of the Szlachta which led to the weakening of the Polish state in the 18th Century and its partition in the first place.

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  50. Seraphim says:
    @HdC

    @Germany really had no choice but to invade the Soviet Union in order to forestall the SU invasion of Germany and all of Western Europe

    It became lately “politically correct” to ‘expose’ the innately aggressive intentions of Russia (it goes back in time to the famous hoax of the Testament of Peter the Great – in which the Poles had a heavy hand) and exonerate Germany, both for WWI and II.

    Let’s quote a few passages from the Introduction to a fundamental book written in 1938: ‘Brest-Litovsk, The Forgotten Peace, March 1918″, by J.W. Wheeler-Bennett.

    [MORE]

    “the very practical application of the principles of Brest-Litovsk now obtaining in Germany (1938), since the advent to power of the National Socialist regime. The Weimar Republic, with the support of the majority opinion on the German General Staff, represented by General von Seeckt, sought to reach a rapprochement with the Soviet Union, and largely succeeded in doing so by the Treaty of Rapallo and the Military Agreement of April 3, 1922, and the German-Russian Non-Aggression Treaty of 1926. There remained, however, a minority who followed in the Hoffmann tradition, regarding Bolshevism as the root of all evil, and dreaming of the ultimate realization of those far-reaching plans for German expansion in Eastern Europe which so sadly eluded them after Brest-Litovsk.
    Added to this is the very definite view which Adolf Hitler himself holds regarding the treaty, and which the National Socialist Party has sedulously fostered into a legend and an attainable ideal. For the ideology which actuated the dictation of the treaty has not been replaced by any other set of ideas, and has become the conviction of a large part of the German people. The present German generation – the generation of Nazi Germany – regards the principles of Brest-Litovsk and the motives lying behind it as an actual political programme. None has been more eloquent in this view than the Fuehrer himself, in his comparison of the treaty with the Peace of Versailles. ” I placed the two Treaties side by side, compared them point by point, showed the positively boundless humanity of the one in contrast to the inhuman cruelty of the other “, he wrote in Mein Kampf. ” In those days I spoke on this subject before audiences of 2000 at which I was often exposed to the gaze of 3600 hostile eyes. And three hours later I had before me a surging mass filled with righteous indignation and boundless wrath.” With this as a pointer it is not surprising to find Hitler stating somewhat later in his work : ” We [the National Socialists] stop the perpetual migration towards the south and west of Europe and fix our gaze on the land in the East . . . when we talk of new lands in Europe, we are bound to think first of Russia and her border States”. And again: “We must not forget that the international Jew, who continues to dominate Russia, does not regard Germany as an ally, but as a State destined to undergo a similar fate. The menace which Russia suffered under is one which perpetually hangs over Germany; Germany is the next great objective of Bolshevism.
    Here then is combined in one political philosophy the doctrine of pre-war Pan-Germanism, the all-pervading hatred of the Jew, and the ideological opposition to Bolshevism, and the only means by which this philosophy may be given practical application is through a reversion to the German mentality of Brest-Litovsk…
    This expansion according to the views expressed in Mem Kampf, the undisputed Bible of the Third Reich, is to take place in the east and south-east of Europe, in those territories to which German colonization during the Middle Ages was directed- “We begin again where we left six centuries ago” – and to the Ukraine and Southern Russia as a whole…
    German ” colonization ” in Russia was proposed by Dr. Schacht at a conference in Rome in
    November 1932, even before the advent of Hitler to power, and the subject was revived in Herr Hugenberg’s famous memorandum to the World Economic Conference in June 1933. The Fuehrer himself made plain reference to it during his speeches against Communism at the Nurnberg Parteifest of 1936. ” If the Urals with their incalculable wealth of raw-materials, the rich forests of Siberia, and the unending cornfields of the Ukraine lay within Germany, under National Socialist leadership the country would swim in plenty. We would produce, and every single German would have enough to live on “, he told representatives of the Arbeitsfront on September 12. No purer example of Brest- Litovsk psychology could be required than this virtual incitement to plunder”.
    (pp.XVI-XVIII)

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  51. Tom Welsh says:

    ‘But how is it that millions of Europeans took to the streets during the so-called “Euromissile crisis” or to oppose the war in Iraq, but have absolutely nothing to say about their sovereignty being turned into a farce, about their leaders supporting a Nazi regime in Kiev and about being used by the USA a cannon fodder in possible continental war?’

    Perhaps they were influenced by the fact that European governments paid absolutely no attention to their huge and sincere protest, and went to war exactly as if there had been no protests.

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  52. Tom Welsh says:
    @Anonymous

    “Poor peace loving, non-agressive russians vs. bloodthirsty, expansive East Europeans”.

    No, peace loving, non-aggressive Russians vs. bloodthirsty, expansive Americans (and their European house negroes).

    Don’t tell me that Russia (as opposed to the USSR) is aggressive when it has only fought one very short and decisive war outside its borders since 1991. In response to extreme violent aggression. (And immediately returned within its previous borders).

    Don’t tell me that the USA is not bloodthirsty and expansive when since 1991 it has attacked and destroyed or severely damaged Yugoslavia, Somalia, Yemen, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran (through the war it ordered its puppet Saddam Hussein to launch), Libya and Syria. With the deaths of at the very least well over 3 million civilians, the creation of well over 10 million homeless refugees and the destruction of hundreds of towns and cities. And when it has positioned its most advanced and threatening military equipment right up as close to the borders of Russia and China as it possibly can.

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  53. Realist says:

    Excellent article.

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  54. Davidski says:

    The Saker is an idiot.

    Of course there’s no chance of Russia attacking Poland. But there’s also no chance of NATO attacking Russia.

    However, the presence of NATO in Poland means more money flowing into Poland. A lot more money. Think about it.

    Russia will be defeated economically. It’s already happening. But Russia defeated itself by wasting its oil/gas money on its new military, the winter Olympics and the World Cup, and all sorts of other stupid shit.

    It’s a shame. Russians can be so much more than they are.

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  55. Randal says:
    @German_reader

    I agree that Saker over-eggs the pudding, but his basic point in this polemic is surely correct – that the European nations have accustomed themselves to servitude to Washington in some kind of collective national Stockholm Syndrome, and now persist in it even when it is no longer needed nor remotely in their own interests (the interests of the nations as a whole, that is, as opposed to the wealthy trans-national elites who administer their media, politics and big business).

    In the aftermath of WW2 that position was understandable. The former Axis nations were under occupation anyway, and the western Allies – including Britain – faced a world in which they were powerless, shattered by war, and which was dominated by two superpowers whose military and economic powers they could not hope to compete with. Those superpowers were competing aggressively for global domination and were each in their own ways ruthlessly opposed to the survival of the European nations as independent, sovereign power centres.

    The choice between Washington and Moscow was arguably necessary and easy in 1945.

    There is no excuse for even pretending a need to make such a choice in 2016, when the Soviet Union no longer exists and Russia is no longer strong enough to threaten central Europe militarily and the US has largely been bound by its own propaganda from doing so.

    Time for the European nations and Britain to finally stand back up on their hind legs and repudiate US domination.

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  56. @Andrei Martyanov

    Today, Russia doesn’t need a propaganda “machine”, she merely needs the reality to be presented. This is much simpler work than propaganda. And then again, neocons and their media are so incompetent that, sometimes, allowing Russian, American or any other real professionals to simply talk is more than enough.

    Exactly. Despite Russia’s alleged inferiority in the propaganda department, they are winning the information war. Why do you think NATOstan wants to start censoring the internet? Because people have been catching on to their bullshit media.

    http://theduran.com/1984-eu-unveils-online-code-conduct-fight-censor-hate-speech/

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2014/12/02/the-war-against-the-trolls/

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  57. Rehmat says:

    Saker should pay respect to Poland – the Vatican of the ‘Holocaust Industry’.

    American taxpayers are known for their fondness in building and maintaining Museums in almost every large city in memories of European Jews killed by Judeo-Christian Nazis. But many people don’t know that sometime Americans have gone beyond call of Christians’ duty to serve the ‘Chosen People’ in order to receive the promised Salvation in the life after death.

    American taxpayers have just completed a Jewish gravestone museum in Polish town of Serock, south of Warsaw. The town has no Jewish resident but according to country’s Foundation for the Preservation of Jewish Heritage (FPJH), once upon a time, the town had a Jewish population of 4100. The town, naturally, had a 120-year-old kosher cemetery which was destroyed by those evil Nazis.

    This certainly would make many God-fearing Christians cry since they’re never told that Israeli Jews continue to build Holocaust Museums, courthouses, shopping malls and apartment complex over Muslim Cemeteries in Jerusalem and other Arab towns. Some of the gravestones prove the burials of the Prophet’s Companions and Sultan Salahuddin Ayubi’s soldiers who liberated Jerusalem from the Crusades in 1187 CE.

    While the FPJH dished the faked gravestones like the Polish Gas Chambers Hoax, the funds for the housing of these gravestones were provided by the US Commission for Preservation of America’s Heritage Abroad. It was created by an act of Congress in 1979. Its founding-father was Brooklyn, NY, Rabbi Zvi Kestenbaum, who wanted to preserve Jewish cemeteries (not German victims of Jewish mobs, please), monuments and holy places, destroyed or damaged during World War II in Soviet Union and Europe.

    We all know how American lawmakers become very passionate when it comes to Jewish or Israeli interests. The Congress decided to fulfill rabbi’s dream based on the logic that since the United States is a country of European immigrants – it’s obliged to help Jews of those countries to preserve their heritage. The chairman of the Commission and its 21 ‘commissioners’ are appointed by the President of the United States of America. The current chairperson is Lesley Weiss. According to Jewish Heritage Europe official website, Most of its focuss has been on Jewish heritage sites.

    Last week, Washington’s ambassador in Warsaw, Stephen Mull, was the chief guest at the dedication ceremony of the Gravestone Museum. “One of our most sacred duties is to keep the memories of crimes committed by the Nazis during WW II. So it could never happen against,” said Mull. However, the passionate envoy didn’t explained whether those Jews in the graves were victims of Nazis or died of natural causes ahead of Nazis’ occupation of Poland.

    In April 2015, Stephen Mull apologized to Polish nation for FBI director James Comey’s statement at Jewish Washington Post article, accusing Warsaw of complicity with the Nazis in the ethnic-cleansing of Polish Jews. I wonder if James Comey knows that Pope John Paul’s mother was a Polish Jew who was saved by his grandparents from Nazis.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/08/25/polands-jewish-gravestone-museum/

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  58. Sherman says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Now, what was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?

    Sherm

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  59. @Avery

    I would also recommend reading Suvorov.

    Pat Buchanan also has some short columns on his website answering your question, then there’s this.:

    “Revisionism as applied to World War II and its origins (as also for previous wars) has the general function of bringing historical truth to an American and a world public that had been drugged by wartime lies and propaganda.

    The least of the lessons that revisionism can teach has already been thoroughly learned: that Germany and Japan are not uniquely “aggressor nations,” doomed from birth to menace the peace of the world. The larger lessons have, unfortunately, yet to be learned.”

    Now revisionism teaches us that this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    Murray Rothbard, Revisionism for Our Times, 1966. Note: This gentleman was also Jewish.

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

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  60. “Poland… has a long history of trying to attack Russia when Russia is at her weakest, and the greatest Polish “heroes” are famous for attacking Russia in the times of internal trouble.”

    Would this include the 123 years when Poland was completely dismembered and under foreign (mostly Russian) control?

    Since John McEnroe was mentioned by Sailer in the Muhammad Ali thread, this seems like a good moment of revive his famous line of “You cannot be serious!”

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  61. Che Guava says:
    @Aixa

    spending up milliards

    Nice to see someone else recall the time before the bastardised US ‘billion’, like many of their language innovations, originating in error, has become near-universal in English-speaking lands.

    Style rules for many years restricted it to money, not science etc.

    I recall Russell Crowe, commenting post 2008, something like ‘Why not just give everyone $x’, x being a large sum which, I bothered to calculate at the time, was correct, if you use the correct definition of billion, ten to the twelfth, and divide by the rough size of the US population.

    Many journalists outside the US, usually older than Crowe, ridiculed him, simply displaying their own ignorance and lack of attention to maths at school, or perhaps, their 1984-style flexible memories.

    ‘Billion has always meant ten to the ninth, it never meant ten to the twelfth.’

    I was able to understand the US journalists doing the same, but those outside just showed that they were morons.

    The Saker’s article is, as always, interesting, and Poland did, after all, gleefully participate in a land grab from Czechoslovakia under the terms of their non-agression pact.

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  62. Vendetta says:
    @German_reader

    I’m a Saker fan and I generally agree with him on the folly of the Polish and Baltic provocation and antagonism towards Russia at present, but this is just laying it on just a little too thick. Smearing Piłsudski as a “fascist megalomaniac” is ridiculous.

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  63. Seraphim says:
    @Davidski

    These (Z)Big Poles are incorrigible!

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  64. Vendetta says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Interesting stuff. Maybe Chamberlain actually would have achieved his intentions by having one of those absurd little tripwire forces sent to Poland when the guarantee was offered.

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  65. @Andrei Martyanov

    Thank you for reaction.
    I.f.f.U.

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  66. Unit472 says:

    One week this spinner of agit-prop tells us of Russia’s mighty new armaments that will lay waste to anything the West would dare deploy, the next we are told that poor Russia is surrounded by the colossus of Poland, Finland and Georgia!

    I’ll tell you where the paranoia lies and its between the ears of Russia’s sawed off dictator!

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  67. @Davidski

    NATO in Poland means more money flowing into Poland

    You mean, selling food, offering drinks and escorts to 5000-10000 GIs? Now how about losing millions of Russian tourists and zero trade? Poland quickly derails towards Ukraine – less production, more US/EU servitude and debt, and still hoping to see thy neighbor Russia failing. Once strong european country, now Poland’s fate is depopulation, rustic existence and social decline.

    There is no need for Russia to attack poor Poland, but there is a chance to nuke NATO stationed in Poland, and there is always a chance of something happening – with only seconds in response.

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  68. HdC says:
    @Tom Welsh

    Spot on! HdC

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  69. @Immigrant from former USSR

    Hitler and his generals had expected the campaign in Russia to be finished before the onset of winter hence their lack of preparations for winter activities. The invasion of USSR was supposed to start much earlier but was delayed by revolt in Yugoslavia. The length of USSR is of little significance. Most of the industrial production was concentrated in large cities like Moscow, Leningrad, Stalingrad, etc. It is no coincidence that the heaviest fighting took place around these places. Without industrial production to support your war efforts the fight is over.

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  70. @Regnum Nostrum

    Thank you for your opinion.

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  71. Avery says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    you recommending that based on your own experience with your fellow neo-Nazi posters?

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  72. Biff says:

    Europeans simply don’t have the brains, the spine or the balls to dare to have an opinion of their own.

    Balls? Balls are weak and sensitive; if you want to be tough, get a vagina – those things can take a pounding.

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  73. Avery says:
    @HdC

    Suvorov’s thesis has been debunked by many, e.g. Colonel David Glantz’s work “Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War.”

    Viktor Suvorov, real name Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun, is an amateur historian regularly accused of historical revisionism and a former Soviet military intelligence officer who defected to the United Kingdom. He has an ax to grind. He needs to sell books. He is a fraud.

    And pretty much all criminals justify their crimes one way or another by blaming the victim.
    You and other neo-Nazi revisionists attempting to justify the killings and murders of ~25 million people of USSR due to the criminal invasion by Nazi Germany are no different.

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  74. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @annamaria

    Read this idiot from AEI

    Neocons’ defining characteristic is their sheer incompetence in issues which do require a solid body of knowledge and serious actual skills. Nowhere does this incompetence manifest itself more than in anything related to military–be it military history or more complex issues of operational art or military-political analysis. Incessant doctrine-mongering (which is a euphemism for war-mongering) is one of the indicators of intellectual hollowness of this whole neocon cabal. As a result of neocons’ preponderance in US media and think-tankdom. most, not all, though, even non-neocon US “elite” lives in la-la land of US exceptionalism and history which is nothing more than real life iteration of the 1984 Minitrue propaganda–needless to say, nothing good can possibly come from all that. I never saw or heard of a lawyer, journalist or political “scientist” perform appendectomy or design a nuclear reactor, yet, somehow, it seems totally natural for those semi-educated hacks to order around complex modern armed forces. I once tried to get a degree in auto-mechanic-gynecologist field, didn’t work out that well.

    P.S. The real history of the Cold War is not written yet in the West and I doubt it will ever be written properly.

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  75. @German_reader

    Professor Geoffrey Roberts has demonstrated that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was not a division of territory. At the time it was signed it was not clear Poland would collapse under German blitzkrieg. The Soviets had to reconsider the situation in September 1939 after the Polish army had already begun to collapse and German panzers were racing everywhere. Only then was a decision to intervene in Poland taken. Winston Churchill publicly declared it was a good thing that Soviet troops had denied occupation of eastern Poland to the Germans.

    http://www.amazon.com/Soviet-Union-Origins-Second-World/dp/0333556976

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  76. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    The European Union is richly deserved this plague

    banksters and Zionists end or destroy the lives of powerless people = other powerless people should pay the price?

    Dutch and German and French young women and working class communities caused all of this evil?

    The Fiend in the banking houses of the ECB and NATO and their minions like Obama and Merkel destroy (or end) millions of people’s lives, and you think some poor guy who shovels horse manure for a living should pay for it all? That he or she ‘richly deserves’ it? Why, because he or she has blue eyes?

    From everything that I’ve been able to glimmer from my short time on this rock, is that the PTB that are slaughtering Muslims and others in these evil and monstrous wars for fun and profit, hate the working class people of Germany and France and Russia, far, far, far more than they hate the Muslims who they’re bombing and mass-murdering. In fact I’d say it’s not even close.

    So as these victims of Zion march on Europe and impose hell on earth and strife and intractable hatred,

    http://pbs.twimg.com/media/CV_XKGZUsAAGQLy.jpg:large

    it’s all just more divide and conquer to the infinite amusement and wet dreams of the Fiend. And all of these people are victims of the Fiend. I blame the Fiend, not it’s victims. (even if they’re white)

    All of us, Iraqi, Afghani, Libyan, Syrian, Russian, Ukrainian, German, Greek, Yemeni, Iranian, poor American (yes, there are tens of millions of them) .. and so many more who’ve lost their lives in these contrived wars imposed on us all by the Fiend, should be blaming the Fiend. Not the poor German teenager or impoverished American soldier whose been lied to. IMHO

    It is Merkel and Obama and all of those lying and corrupt politicians that know all of these wars are based on lies, just like they all know the downing of MH17 has all been a sewer of lies, just like the chemical weapon attack in Syria. It is the people in charge who “richly deserve” to pay for all of this. And then some. Not the poor schlub who’s simply done what they considered right and good, (because they’ve been lied to).

    All of our collective and righteous hatred should be concentrated like a laser right at the people responsible.

    Obama. Hollande, Cameron and Blair and Bush and Clinton and the Zio-scumfucks at the Fed and ECB. They absolutely “richly deserve’ to have justice visit their front door. And then some. Not, IMHO poor and middle and working class people from all over the world. Enough of them have suffered for the evil schemes of evil men and women who never seem to pay so much as hearing a harsh word offered in their general direction.

    Tony Blair should never be allowed to show his face. Same for Bush and Obama and all the rest. They are responsible. Not Joe sixpack. Please!

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  77. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    Agree.

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  78. rod1963 says:

    I suspect that behind this anti-Russian hysteria are a bunch of politicians that have been heavily bribed by the U.S. government. It won’t be the first time we sent men with large suitcases loaded with $100 bills to buy ‘co-operation’.

    Look those East European countries aren’t rich and neither are their politicians. Spreading the wealth among them will buy lots of favors and the promise of more wealth via ‘loans’ from the IMF and Brussels.

    To the U.S. spreading a couple billion is pocket change. Remember when we were in Iraq we were flying C-141′s loaded with $100 bills into Iraq – all of which promptly disappeared into the hands of Muslims.

    The point is, if we have to bribe the locals, we do it.

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  79. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Onkl Shmuel (aka Uncle Sam before 1913) is watching you, the Saker.

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  80. Svigor says:

    I know, right? It’s not as if the Russians would ever grab eastern Europe and make a totalitarian empire out of it.

    After communism fell, how many Soviet war criminals and genocidaires were hunted down, a la the Nazis, and put on trial?

    Just curious.

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  81. HdC says:
    @Avery

    Instead of ad hominem attacks on Suvorov, why not rebuff his tome with your verifiable facts?

    HdC

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  82. @Randal

    I totally agree with you about that, European subservience to the US is a real problem, on every level (not least cultural, given how insane the US has become its cultural influence – “critical whiteness studies”, transgenderism etc. – today is highly corrosive). Personally I’d like to see NATO disbanded and be replaced by some kind of European alliance structure that’s genuinely focused on defending European countries against external threats (i.e. NOT some idiotic nation-building missions in the Hindukush). Unfortunately this seems unlikely to happen. European “elites” lack the necessary imagination and boldness to step outside of the transatlantic paradigm (and in many European countries military capabilities have atrophied to a disturbing degree…my own country being an extreme case).
    My problem with the Saker isn’t that he criticizes NATO…rather that he comes across as a truly hateful, genuinely anti-Western individual (with bizarre sympathies for Islam, I might add).

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  83. Ivan K. says:
    @Rurik

    [The Powers That Be] are responsible. Not Joe sixpack.

    Let me start with three quotes:

    Quigley: Even in a society where it looks as if all power is in the hands of the government — let’s say, Soviet Russia — still eighty percent, at least, of human behavior in Russia is controlled by internalized controls which were socialized in them by the way they were treated from the moment that they were born. And as a result, they have come to accept certain things which allow the Russian state to act as if it can do anything, when it obviously can’t. It knows it can’t.

    http://www.carrollquigley.net/Lectures/The-State-of-Individuals-AD-1776-1976.htm

    Sibel Edmonds: This is the reason you will not see many whistleblowers. Because, people have learned a lesson. And if you go and talk to them, _real_ whistleblowers, ….they would tell you who screwed them the most, and the worst, and who really slapped them in the face. They are not gonna say, : “Oh, after twenty years my boss is taking away my retirement, or the US media bunch, or the Congress not doing what they’re supposed to do.” They’re gonna say: that their _biggest_ disappointment, their _biggest_ screw, – came directly from the public.

    (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yP1MtaSIePk) (51:45 – 52:35)

    JT Gatto: If you obsess about conspiracy , what you’ll fail to see is that we are held fast by a form of highly abstract thinking fully concretized in human institutions which has grown beyond the power of the managers of these institutions to control. If there is a way out of the trap we’re in, it won’t be by removing some bad guys and replacing them with good guys.
    Who are the villains, really , but ourselves? People can change, but systems cannot without losing their structural integrity . Even Henry Ford, a Jew-baiter of such colossal proportions he was lionized by Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf, made a public apology and denied to his death he had ever intended to hurt Jews—a too strict interpretation of Darwin made him do it!

    – Ungerground History of American Education

    … Wise thoughts and quotes aside, my view has mainly been formed by my experience. And that experience is that of my close ones being aloof, obstructionist and threatening. (Even statistics say that you’re much more likely to be abused or killed by a friend, an acquaintance or a relative than by a total stranger.)
    My experience is also one of a world abysmally divided into clans of some kind. The word ‘tribes’ comes to mind. But I’ve read about ‘primitive’ tribes and can tell you they tend to be less xenophobic than urban citizens of bureaucratised societies.

    TPB?

    Absolutely real. I’m just saying that to tackle them one has to start from the basics of one’s own life.

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  84. Rehmat says:
    @Sherman

    Study Talmud in Hebrew to understand true Zionist Jewish hatred toward Christianity.

    In 2012, several pro-Israel Jewish groups lead by Abraham Foxman (ADL) urged Jordanian government to take action to ensure that the Arabic translation of Jewish Talmud was not used to teach hatred of Jews and Israel among the Arabs.

    A group of some 90 Jordanian Muslim and Christian scholars and researchers spent six years to translate Babylonian Jewish Talmud from Aramaic to Arabic. The project was sponsored by Amman-based academic group ‘Centre for Middle Eastern Studies (CMES). The 20-volume set is being sold for $750.

    So why pro-Israel Jewish groups are upset with Arabic translation of Jewish Talmud? Abraham Foxman, national director of ADL says the introduction to the 20-volume set claims that Talmud teaches hatred toward non-Jews (Goyim) which is the basis of Israel’s discrimination against Arabs and the native Muslims and Christian Palestinians….

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/05/26/talmud-goes-arabic-jewish-groups-hit-the-wall/

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  85. Rurik says:
    @Svigor

    It’s not as if the Russians would ever grab eastern Europe and make a totalitarian empire out of it.

    it wasn’t “Russians”, it was Soviets, and they were funded (and led) by NY Jewish bankers. And it was Churchill and FDR (also funded and controlled by Jews) who told Stalin that he could have Eastern Europe.

    compared to NATO and the bankster controlled West today, Putin’s Russia looks not just as the only adult in the room, but morally they look like saints compared to the murderous Zio-demon destroying country after country

    or hadn’t you noticed?

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  86. Cyrano says:

    Do the fools in Eastern Europe really think that NATO was designed to protect them? Haven’t they learned from history how US “helps” their allies. If war broke out between NATO and Russia, the Americans will fight exactly like they did in ww2: Bomb endlessly for 4 years and if anybody asks them to do more they pretend that they are doing all they can. NATO is cannon fodder recruitment tool for US, it was designed to protect them, not Europe. I don’t see such generosity (protecting Europe) coming from people who like to show up late (1917 and 1944 instead of 1914 and 1939) and when they show up they don’t do all that much.

    So – sweet dreams Eastern Europe – US is there to “protect” you.

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  87. Rurik says:
    @Ivan K.

    TPB?

    Absolutely real. I’m just saying that to tackle them one has to start from the basics of one’s own life.

    I did it?!

    I’m pointing out that it wasn’t the guy in the street. The guy in the street has been so lied to from every direction that it’s a miracle he knows which way is up.

    As near as I can tell, based on your logic, Madeleine Albright was right, and those half million children deserved to die because a scumfuck in Iraq was defying scumfucks in Washington/Tel Aviv.

    No, I don’t blame myself for imposing those sanction and causing all that suffering and misery and death. I blame Madeleine Albright, (and her groupie Hillary).

    I don’t blame the powerless, I blame the powerful.

    If you were Pat Tillman going to war to kill the bastards that did 911, you’re not only blameless, you’re f**king heroic! The best of the best. But then when you realize you’ve been lied to, and start to speak out against the war, and they blow your head off, and lie about it, I blame the ones who lied him into the wars. Not him. And then I blame the ones who blew his head off, and then lied about it.

    You see it is the murderous rotten liars who deserve to have their lying heads blown off, not the innocent who’ve been lied to, don’t you think?

    Pat Tillman was a victim, even when he was killing the Taliban. Because he had been lied to.

    Just like we were all lied to about 911 and about everything else. I blame the liars. And I bet Sibel Edmonds would agree.

    Most Americans consider Edward Snowden a hero, even after they’ve been lied to about him. It’s the PTB that want to torture him to death as an example, not the American people.

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  88. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The US has unlimited funds, all the money in the world, and I just assume that these various leaders have all been bribed or otherwise bought off. Money talks, ideology takes a walk. Insofar as doing what’s good for the mass of people in their respective countries the elites of most of them have something in common with each other and that is a contempt for the average person whose value is sized up much like that of cows to be sold on the market. The elites may as well be the new royal house whose members rule different countries. The US interest is of course to exploit other people into being their cannon fodder, just as domestically people with poor job prospects have to sell their bodies by joining the military and take their chances. The US will fight the Russians to the last European just as they were willing to fight them to the last Afghan in Afghanistan during the 80′s. The incompetence and miscalculations of these supposedly smart people in playing their game of ‘chicken’ could really have some serious consequences for everybody. Much of it seems to verge on the irrational and is certain to be counterproductive but yet here we go.

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  89. Catiline says:
    @Randal

    The problem with this analysis is that Russian gangsterism tends to inhibit any impulses that may exist or possibly come into being in that direction. Russia is strong enough to cause serious trouble and the extent to which it can’t threaten Europe is largely based upon the deterrence of NATO. Remove the deterrence and Russia becomes that much more threatening. Finally, Britain is just as problematic as Russia is in it’s own way. Britain does not belong in Europe, it acts as America’s Trojan horse.

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  90. Melchior says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Hitler thought Barbarossa would be a replay of the French campaign. It had taken around a month of fighting to defeat the French, and as Russia had around 4 to 5 times the population of France, he allowed himself 4 to 5 months to defeat the Russians. Assuming a launch date of May/June 1941, the campaign would be over by early autumn.

    However, to complete the analogy he needed to send 8-10 million men to Russia. In fact he had half that number. This was probably the critical failure.

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  91. Rex May says: • Website

    That initial Churchill quote looked illiterate as all get-out to me, so I googled and found:

    And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.”

    Here

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2013/10/the-polish-guarantee-churchill-speaks-.html

    Which seems correct, or at least makes sense. Probably you should fix this.

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  92. Boris N says:

    If the EU is the house Negro of the US, then Russia is the field Negro of the EU. It indeed seems legit as Russia is the back yard of the EU, the country that has long been supporting the EU with raw resources. But being a Negro of another Negro is a very pitiful position in the hierarchy.

    And what has been always overlooked is economy and the economic impact of the Russian militarization of the past 5-10 years. How long can the Russian economy withstand such a regime? Will it not result in an imminent breakdown? In 1985 the USSR was at its peak, still it simply couldn’t take it no more and failed, economically in the first place.

    I’m sure the conflict between Russia and the NATO is very exaggerated and far from the reality. It is, as you say, a field Negro is trying to rebel against the master. Obviously, it will fail. The Negro is too weak and dependent, the Master is too strong. Nothing terrible will happen during the suppression of the rebellion, maybe some Negroes will be hurt, but who cares anyway? Probably, the Master will just eliminate the rebellious chiefs of the field Negroes, and that’s it.

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  93. ABCD says:

    What a distasteful anti-Polish trash. “Hienas” – 3 times, so the reader will remember. After Churchill, that impeccable expert in matters Eastern-European. “House Negroes,” borrowed from another impeccable scholar X. “No brains, no logical thinking.” “Always attacking Russia,” “Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact the same as the 1934 Polish-German Pact,” etc, etc.

    If the French and the British attacked on the Western front during the first 2 weeks of September 1939, there and then the war would be over. Stalin waited till September 17, 1939 to see if the Western front would be opened. Then attacked, seeing no reaction of the French and the British. Hitler’s gambit paid off.

    The Polish-Bolshevik war of 1920, two years after Poland reappeared on the map after being partitioned for 134 years by Russia, Prussia, and Austro-Hungary. No, the Poles didn’t attack the Soviets.

    The Poles took Zaolzie in 1938 to protect the Polish majority living in that area. Not very elegant move, to be sure, but “hienas”? Churchill, who admired Comrade Stalin – was always correct in his opinions, right?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaolzie

    Now, this NATO business in Warsaw: neocons here in the US, perhaps? The “no brains, no logical thinking” Poles, 95% of the press in Poland belongs to German publishers. Thus the anti-Russian and pro-Bandero/Ukrainian propaganda. And in this context, what should we think about our intelligence when supporting the Iraq war? Afghanistan? Syria? We, average citizens, could have stopped those wars easily, right Mr. Sater?

    There are voices in Poland that warn against Poland being involved in yet another bloodbath. Hopefully they will not drown in the incessant propaganda and the machinations of the current administration backed up by … yes, our irreplaceable neocons.

    Most uncouth propaganda this article you have written. Reminds me of the voices before the first partition of Poland: They (the Poles) are incapable of running their own country, exclaimed the the partitioning powers after they prevented the Poles from reforming their military and government. Look at this drawing carefully: deja vu:

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  94. Tad says:

    Well, what are you supposed to do if you’re Poland? The Poles are caught between two great powers that have both brutalized Poland in the recent past. Kiss up to Russia and you might anger the Germans and other Western nations; crawl in bed with the West and you upset Russia. And the current situation of relative peace is nice, but it is historical atypical, so any suggestion that Poland just kick back and enjoy things is naive, imo. Perhaps, Saker, you have a suggestion as to the strategic stance Poland should take, given its geography?

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  95. 5371 says:
    @Boris N

    [In 1985 the USSR was at its peak, still it simply couldn’t take it no more and failed, economically in the first place.]

    Nonsense. They decided life was too dull and fell for a scam.

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  96. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    They are responsible. Not Joe sixpack. Please!

    Not sure I would agree to completely absolve from blame the average citizen living in so-called democracies. Along with the privilege of living in a democracy comes the responsibility of being a well-informed citizen. Why is it that Rurik, annamarina, et. al. are well informed while others are totally in the dark?

    So, while I agree that the peoples’ representatives deserve the lion’s share of the blame, the people themselves are not totally innocent. It would be a mistake to let them completely off the hook and allow them to plead ignorance. We need them to stop shirking their responsibility to be well-informed citizens.

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  97. Mulegino1 says:
    @Avery

    Is Lebensraum a myth?

    No, but is “living space” so controversial a concept that it needs to be made into a Manichean myth? It is no more evil a concept that “Manifest Destiny” in the United States, perhaps less so, because those of European Christian descent could hardly claim ancestral ties to Wyoming or the Dakotas, while the Germanic peoples could certainly do so with regards to the western parts of Poland and Ukraine.

    “Lebensraum” is a perfectly reasonable concept which predated the National Socialists by decades. Jewish propaganda has given it an utterly distorted meaning, i.e., that it implies the destruction or total displacement of the indigenous peoples by those of “pure Aryan descent” whereas, in reality, it refers to the settling of sparsely populated regions by ethnic Germans, with no real negative consequences for the local indigenous populations.

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  98. 5371 says:
    @ABCD

    [The Polish-Bolshevik war of 1920, two years after Poland reappeared on the map after being partitioned for 134 years by Russia, Prussia, and Austro-Hungary. No, the Poles didn’t attack the Soviets.]

    Yes, they did.

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  99. L.K says:
    @Immigrant from former USSR

    The book you mentioned, Immigrant from former USSR, is excellent.

    The only problem with Suvorov(Rezun) is that he basically only addresses the Soviet responsability for the war, leaving out the other 2 main culprits on the Allied side; The U.S F.D.R administration and Churchill and the rest of the British war mongering party(France to a less extent).

    The fools and propagandists here who try to dismiss Suvorov’s work are either stupid and ignorant or just dishonest. They think Suvorov is the only Russian who has advanced such a thesis, far from it;

    Since the 1990s, with the partial opening of Soviet archives(closed again), many Russian historians refined the evidence for Stalin’s agressive aims. An incomplete list of such Russian historians/researchers include:
    Besides former Soviet intel officer , Vladimir Bogdanovich Rezun (Viktor Suvorow), Russian historian Dr. Mikhail Meltiukhov, V. A. Nevezhin, Colonel V. D. Danilov, Igor Bunich, Irina. V. Pavlova, V. L. Doroshenko, Boris Sokolov, B.N.Petrov, Vladimir Neveshin, M.Solonin, Constantine Pleshakov, Dr.Alexander Pronin, Prof. Dr. Maria Litowskaja, Colonel Kiselev, Dr. Dschangir Nadschafow, faculty director of the Institute of General History of the Russian Academy of Sciences, P. Bobylev, T. Bushueva, Y. Felshtinskiy, etc.

    In fact, Suvorov’s more recent work, such as ‘The Chief Culprit”, benefits a lot from such research done by other Russian historians in the archives.

    Since the 1990s, many Western/European historians have reached similar conclusions. Americans such as Prof.Albert Weeks, Richard Raack, John Mosier, R.H.S. Stolfi.
    German and Austrian historians such as Ernst Topitsch, Ernst Nolte, Dr.Werner Maser, Lothar Rühl, Fritz Becker, Dr.Walter Post, Dr.Max Klüver, Wolfgang Strauss, military historians such as Heinz Magenheimer, Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof and Dr.Joachim Hoffmann, S. Scheil, Polish historian Bogdan Musial, Scott E. Mawdsley, French Stéphane Courtois, François Furet, etc.

    The official comic book, Roger Rabitt narrative re the Soviet-German clash during WWII does not have a leg to stand on.
    This is the reason behind Russia’s new legislation against ‘revising’ WWII history.
    The truth does not need to be shielded from scrutiny.

    Also most Soviet archives of the era remain sealed.
    Why? What is the Russian government hiding? A lot. As Rezun points out, many hundreds of thousands of top secret documents remain sealed.
    It is understandable that Russia, as the main heir to the Soviet Empire, does not wish to let go of its most important national myth, even more so when the Americans, Perfidious Albion, aka, the english pests and the French are of course not letting go of the “good war” myth either and will not face up to their decisive roles and responsabilities in fomenting and causing what eventually became a world war(II).

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  100. L.K says:

    W.Strauss details in his book ‘Unternehmen Barbarossa und der russische Historikerstreit”
    ( I highly recommend it for those able to read German ), the findings of several of those Russian researchers whom I mentioned in my previous post(from a review of it by D.Michaels):

    https://www.amazon.de/Unternehmen-Barbarossa-russische-Historikerstreit-Wolfgang/dp/3776620285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1465160890&sr=8-1&keywords=Unternehmen+Barbarossa+und+der+russische+Historikerstreit

    Major findings:

    -Stalin wanted a general European war of exhaustion in which the USSR would intervene at the politically and militarily most expedient moment. Stalin’s main intention is seen in his speech to the Politburo of August 19, 1939.
    -To ignite this, Stalin used the [August 1939] Soviet-German Non-Aggression Pact, which: a) provoked Hitler’s attack against Poland, and b) evoked the declarations of war against Germany by Britain and France. But not against the Soviet Union which also invaded Poland taking half of it.
    -In the event Germany was defeated quickly by Britain and France, Stalin planned to “Sovietize” Germany and establish a “Communist government” there, but with the danger that the victorious capitalist powers would never permit a Communist Germany.
    -In the event France was defeated quickly by Germany, Stalin planned the “Sovietization” of France. “A Communist revolution would seem inevitable, and we could take advantage of this for our own purposes by rushing to aid France and making her our ally. As a result of this, all the nations under the ‘protection’ of a victorious Germany would become our allies.”
    -From the outset Stalin reckoned on a war with Germany, and the Soviet conquest of Germany. To this end, Stalin concentrated on the western border of the USSR operational offensive forces, which were five- to six-times stronger than the Wehrmacht with respect to tanks, aircraft and artillery.
    -With respect to a war of aggression, on May 15, 1941, the Red Army’s Main Political Directorate instructed troop commanders that every war the USSR engaged in, whether defensive or offensive, would have the character of a “just war.”
    -Troop contingents were to be brought up to full strength in all the western military districts; airfields and supply bases to support a forward-strategy were to be built directly behind the border; an attack force of 60 divisions was to be set up in the Ukraine and mountain divisions and a parachute corps were to be established for attack operations.
    -The 16th, 19th, 21st, 22nd and 25th Soviet Armies were transferred from the interior to the western border, and deployed at take-off points for the planned offensive.
    -In his speech of May 5, 1941, to graduate officers of the academies, Stalin said that war with Germany was inevitable, and characterized it as a war not only of a defensive nature but rather of an offensive nature.

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  101. Polish Prometheism. A policy to weaken Russia

    [quote]Its aim was to weaken the Russian Empire and its successor states, including the Soviet Union, by supporting nationalist independence movements among the major non-Russian peoples that lived within the borders of Russia and the Soviet Union.[1][/quote]

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prometheism

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  102. Avery says:
    @HdC

    {Please read a book entitled ICEBREAKER by Viktor Suyerov (sp?).}
    {Instead of ad hominem attacks on Suvorov, why not rebuff his tome with your verifiable facts?}

    Are you serious?
    What do you think this is, a discussion panel for academics and historians?
    This is a blog: you actually think I am going to spend days, weeks referencing page and chapter of Suvorov’s book – a debunk it based on what ? If I reference archival material from say Soviet archives (if I had access), how are you going to verify it.

    Above you suggested I read Suvorov’s book.
    I in turn suggest you re-read my post: therein I wrote that Suvorov’s book has been rebutted, rebuffed, debunked by several historians and experts in the field.
    I am neither, so won’t even go there.

    Please read a book titled “Stumbling Colossus: The Red Army on the Eve of World War (Modern War Studies)” by David M. Glantz. And then rebuff his debunking of Suvorov’s bogus claim.

    Avery.

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  103. ABCD says:
    @5371

    Care to list the source (or sources)? Thank you.

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  104. Boris N says:
    @ABCD

    Dear Polish friend, I do not know what version of history you are taught in your Polish schools, but I’m sure it is very Polish-centric and very Polish nationalist. Like “Holy Poland is the last stronghold of the Western civilization against the Eastern barbarians”, or “the brave Poles have been fighting the Asiatic Tatar-Muscovite barbarians for the past 500 years”. Anyway, even I’m a sincere anti-Communist, I must admit that in the 1919-1921 War Poland was hardly a victim. Your national hero Pilsudski wanted to recreate the Great Poland “od morza do morza”, the version of 1772, if not 1618, by conquering today Ukraine and Belarus, which were then practically hardly controlled by anyone. Poland was indeed like a vulture picking up the flesh of the dead lion (the Russian Empire). Of course, the Bolsheviks saw in that war a possibility to push the Revolution westward, anyway even if the Bolsheviks were overthrown by Denikin or Wrangel, it would be absolutely logical for them to wage war against Poland to take control of White and Little Russias (Belarus and Ukraine were then phantom states), in that case the war would become another Russian-Polish. The Poles so eagerly “defended” Poland that they even took Kiev. Do you really think that Kiev, “the mother of Russian cities”, is somewhere in Poland? Finally, the Poles decided that Western Belarus and Ukraine were enough for them for now. Oh, sorry, I meant “Kresy Wschondnie”.

    As for 1939… Even if Stalin was the most terrible person of all Russian history, those moves of him were absolutely logical and legitimate. What Polish land did he take? How on Earth did the lands of historical White, Red and Little Russias become Polish? Poland always took these lands, when Russia was at its weakest. A true vulture.
    Even if it were not Stalin, but, say, a Russian Tsar or President, every Russian would support such a move. The bad side of Stalin’s moves was that he did not want united Russia, but added those conquered lands to made-up Belarus and Ukraine.

    And as for 1772… Again, what Polish lands did Empress Catherine take? It was only in 1815, after Poland had eagerly supported Napoleon against Russia (again in the hope to recreate the Great Poland) did the Russians decide to take control over Poland proper. But while Russian Tsars did everything in favour of Poland (Tsar Alexander opened the Warsaw University, how was it an oppression?), the Poles were never grateful or at least peaceful but rebelled in 1830. Only then Russians lost any illusions about Poland.

    After that, how does Poland dare to play again and again the role of a victim being in fact a vulture? And who will believe it? Russians certainly will not.

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  105. Avery says:
    @Mulegino1

    In your original post you claimed this:

    {The diplomatic history leading up to the outbreak of war pretty much demolishes the ridiculous idea that Hitler was a bloodthirsty villain who wanted war and planned to conquer the world.}

    I wrote:

    {If Hitler didn’t want war, then why did the Wehrmacht under orders of Hitler invade USSR?
    Why did Nazi invaders kill and murder ~10,000,000 Soviet civilians, mostly Slavs?
    (not counting military losses, another ~15 million)
    Is Lebensraum a myth?}

    Again: Hitler is not the only villain in history and Germans are not the only people in the world who have taken land – or attempted to take land – that belongs to somebody else.
    I am quite familiar with the concept from my ancestry: nomad Turkic tribes took about 90% of historic Armenian lands, after ethnically cleansing the indigenous peoples of Asia Minor (Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks)and Armenian Highlands, topped of with Genocide. No need for me to list the long list of Turk villains. For the record, if there can be such a thing, Nazi German killers were demonstrably civilized compared to the nomad savages. Germans killed quickly and with the least pain possible. The nomads murdered people while they were alive, with aim to cause maximum pain and suffering. Again, no need to list the long roster of depraved savagery of the Turkic tribes. Turks are still there, and all the indigenous Christians are gone – save for a few 10s of 1,000s.

    In modern times, Turkey invaded Republic of Cyprus and gobbled 40% of it.
    Turks are still there 40 years after the grab.

    I responded to your post because you claimed Hitler did not want war.
    He wanted to take the lands of Slavs in the East.
    Since those lands were already populated by Slavs for millennia, the indigenous peoples had to be killed off to make room for the Germanic peoples to come in and settle there.
    Since Nazis considered Slavs subhuman, killing and murdering millions was no issue for them.
    How else do you take somebody else’s land if not by war.

    Note that Nazis conquered West Europe rather quickly and thoroughly. .
    But e.g. French people were not exterminated to take their land. Right?

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  106. Boris N says:
    @5371

    Life in the USSR was indeed too dull, but the great impact of the Soviet military onto the Soviet economy is a well-known fact. I think the Soviet officials admitted this themselves (though I cannot give you a citation right now). The Soviet economy was being slowly ruined from making too many tanks, while people had nothing in their life. Even if Perestroika and the 1990s were scams, this does not nullify the fact that the USSR was a world of insanity.

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  107. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Not sure I would agree to completely absolve from blame the average citizen living in so-called democracies.

    was Pat Tillman guilty when he joined the army to kill the bastards who attacked us on 911?

    I say he was the best kind of human being there is

    this is the opening scene from one of my favorite war movies

    were these boys to blame once they aged a few years and were sent to the trenches to slaughter each other for the benefit and agenda of powerful scumfucks?

    Why is it that Rurik, annamarina, et. al. are well informed while others are totally in the dark?

    because they don’t have the wherewithal to sort though the lies. Pat Tillman was one of them, then he became like Annamarine and I, and they blew his head off for it.

    the people themselves are not totally innocent

    does that go for all Canadians too Geo? Are all your neighbors and fellow country men to blame?

    http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2015/07/canada-joins-failing-war-terror-bill-c51-150724092110473.html

    The putative reason Albright was giving for why those 5,000,000 Iraqi children’s death were “worth it”, was because they and their families should have taken it upon themselves to remove Saddam from power. It was their fault, you see, because they had not taken the initiative to remove a tyrant from power. It wasn’t any of the leaders or diplomats who were to blame, but the children and their parents. That was the justification in her mind. And I hesitate, to point out in yours too.

    90%+ of Americans are completely lied to and have zero time or ability to sift through the lies. But they’re catching on, and that’s why the establishment is nearly apoplectic over the rise of Trump, who has been against the Eternal War from the beginning. Starting with Iraq.

    I never blame the victim, no matter how much the temptation to heap scorn upon admittedly arrogant and obnoxious Americans. If they knew the truth, and still wanted the wars, that’d be something, and it would change everything for me. But they are lied to from virtually every single Zionist owned media outlet, and that pretty much covers 98.3%

    Part of the other percent being the Internet and the Unz Review in particular. ; )

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  108. @L.K

    Thank you, dear L.K , for your this and the next post, both very informative.
    I agree that Suvorov emphasized the Stalin’s (USSR’s) role in starting WW2.
    I will try to read something out of your list. Can you pinpoint one particular book,
    preferably in English ? My German is extremely rusty and by now is reduced to
    “Aber die ordnung muss sein”.
    Most respectfully, I.f.f.U.

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  109. Wally says: • Website

    Trump wants the Europeans to pay their share for NATO.

    The US currently pays 70% of NATO’s costs.

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  110. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:

    The commie days weren’t so bad.

    Released in US as HEY BABU RIBA.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Ii0XEsS9dM

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dancing_in_Water

    Back in commie days, the West could not win over Eastern European hearts by saying “Take tons of Muslims and Africans”.

    So, the West just talked about freedom. Now, it’s about pushing Diversity and Homomania on every country.

    Diversity weakens gentile unity and homomania favors the idea of elite minority rule(and that favors Jews who use homos as their collaborator-allies).

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  111. @Aixa

    Clearly, it was a brilliant plan.

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  112. @attonn

    True, and it’s also beyond stupid since even Polish liberals are surely aware the Americans will not lift a finger to help them in the event of actual war. That the comments of the FBI director re. Polish collaboration with Germans against Jews did not open Polish eyes, does not speak well of Polish sensibilities.

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  113. @landlubber

    Put bluntly, who gives a damn if it resonates poorly with Americans? A slap in the face (several, really) is exactly what they need.

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  114. I have a distinct impression that the author doesn’t like Poland for some reason or other. Maybe because he is a big fan of Russia?

    It is of course possible, that because of racial, inborn reasons Polish nation is so foul that it hates poor Russia without any reason. But why so many other countries also dislike noble Muscovites and invite evil Murricans? It is as if they didn’t have any experiences with Russians…

    …oh wait.

    More seriously. NATO Summit is starting soon. Increased activity by Russians and Russophiles is only to be expected.

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  115. @Avery

    Lebensraum is not a myth, but there is no evidence what Hitler wrote in the 20′s (before he became German ruler) re. the THEN instability of the new Soviet state and prospects following its (wrongly) anticipated dissolution, played any role in the formulation of Barbarossa.

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  116. @Poles never learn

    I seriously want to know where did you found million Russian tourists in Poland.

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  117. @5371

    No, they didn’t.

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  118. @HdC

    You are largely correct that Barbarossa was a preemptive attack, but come on, the shocking maltreatment of Soviet POWs by the Germans (granted they were rebuffed by Stalin in attempts to come to agreement re. treatment of prisoners) is well-known and a serous crime.

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  119. Svigor says:

    German_reader, how much imagination does it take to justify a purely European defense organization? “Ya, USA gets blown up or pulls out, we’re on our own.” Not much.

    And yes, Saker’s a dick cheese. As are almost all of the Russophiles I encounter in alt-right circles.

    it wasn’t “Russians”, it was Soviets, and they were funded (and led) by NY Jewish bankers. And it was Churchill and FDR (also funded and controlled by Jews) who told Stalin that he could have Eastern Europe.

    Russian communism was very heavily Jewish before, during, and immediately after the revolution, but by the end of World War II, Stalin was firmly in charge. I don’t give a damn who told him he could take Eastern Europe and make a totalitarian empire out of it. Churchill and FDR told him one thing, while my grandpa told him to die like a dog, with a dick in every hole.

    compared to NATO and the bankster controlled West today, Putin’s Russia looks not just as the only adult in the room, but morally they look like saints compared to the murderous Zio-demon destroying country after country

    or hadn’t you noticed?

    If that was all supposed to follow from the embedded link, you should know that I have them blocked and don’t watch them.

    Do the fools in Eastern Europe really think that NATO was designed to protect them? Haven’t they learned from history how US “helps” their allies.

    Compared to whom? Show us what the model of helping one’s allies looks like. Which country is so much better than than the US in this regard?

    My guess: *crickets chirping*

    Hitler thought Barbarossa would be a replay of the French campaign. It had taken around a month of fighting to defeat the French, and as Russia had around 4 to 5 times the population of France, he allowed himself 4 to 5 months to defeat the Russians. Assuming a launch date of May/June 1941, the campaign would be over by early autumn.

    Watching the Finns kick the Red Army’s ass didn’t help.

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  120. Svigor says:

    You are largely correct that Barbarossa was a preemptive attack, but come on, the shocking maltreatment of Soviet POWs by the Germans (granted they were rebuffed by Stalin in attempts to come to agreement re. treatment of prisoners) is well-known and a serous crime.

    Germany had food shortages throughout the war. Feeding millions of Soviet POWs was of appropriately low priority. Soviets used their disregard of their own peoples’ lives (something for which they set the historical bar) as a weapon. So, ugly situation, but as you point out, there’s plenty of blame to go around.

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  121. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    … because they don’t have the wherewithal to sort though the lies.

    Do you mind unpacking this a little for us? What do you mean by “wherewithal”? Smarts, IQ, brains? If that’s the case, why were there so many people on the streets and campuses protesting the Vietnam War? Did they have higher IQs back then?

    … does that go for all Canadians too Geo?

    Of course it does. I thought I stated it very clearly when I wrote: “Not sure I would agree to completely absolve from blame the average citizen living in so-called democracies“.

    That was the justification in her mind. And I hesitate, to point out in yours too.

    I’m glad you wrote “hesitate” because you know what my views are about the Fiend.

    Look, my point is a simple one: citizens of a democracy must recognize that with the privilege of living in a democracy comes the responsibility of being well-informed. Are you suggesting they do not have this responsibility? And if you agree that they do indeed have this responsibility, should they not be held to account if they shirk it?

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  122. fatty says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Russians are drunk pussies-very tough, but used to getting pounded hard.

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  123. fatty says:
    @5371

    And kicked their socialist asses, you half a sissy.

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  124. fatty says:
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    No need for Russians to visit Poland, cheaper and crappier vodka in their motherland.

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  125. Ramaski says:

    What a hate filled hatchet job. Why does the Faker have nothing truthful to say about Polish history? Consider this blatant deception:

    “The polish view of history is nothing short of bizarre. For example, Polish politicians constantly blame the Soviet Union for the 1939 Soviet-German non-aggression Treaty (aka “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact”) of 1939. They conveniently “forget” that a full five years before 1939 Poland was the first to sign the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (for some reason not known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact”).”

    Contrary to this baseless innuendo, there was absolutely nothing shameful or wrong about the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (unless you’re opposed to peaceful diplomacy). And the reason it isn’t known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact” is because, unlike the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it didn’t contain a secret protocol to jointly attack and partition another nation. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact also included an agreement to murder the entire Polish leadership at all levels. Equating that satanic plan with a peace treaty is the only thing “bizarre” about any of the thinking on display here. By the way, the “polish view of history” is spelled with a capital letter. And would the Faker be happier if Poland had been the 4th or 5th nation to sign an agreement that only existed between two nations??!! His baseless innuendo continues by telling us to just take a look at the Wikipedia entry for Józef Piłsudski (gasp!), But if you read it you will discover a courageous patriot who, against all odds and amongst many other accomplishments, turned back the advancing Soviets at the 1920 Battle of Warsaw, thereby saving much of war weakened Europe from a bloody Bolshevik takeover. There are so many other falsehoods in this article but I only have so much time for correcting lies.

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  126. utu says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    “Polish collaboration with Germans against Jews did not open Polish eyes, does not speak well of Polish sensibilities.” – Could you elaborate? What collaboration?

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  127. @Jon Halpenny

    I believe Hitler entertained the idea of a Polish rump state but Stalin opposed this because of Ukrainian populations under Polish control.

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  128. utu says:
    @L.K

    ‘not letting go of the “good war” myth’ – Only Germans could break that myth but so far they are not very inclined.

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  129. @Tad

    They have no good choices, but surely, antagonizing the Russians while assuming the Americans have their back is a very poor one.

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  130. @Avery

    Glantz was stage-managed by Soviet intelligence, who completely controlled his access to the archives (access which is generally unavailable to revisionist researchers). Another useful idiot.

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  131. @Svigor

    +1 for using “dick cheese” in a post.

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  132. @utu

    The FBI director claimed that Poles bore some blame for the killing of Jews under German occupation. This is completely ridiculous, and the Americans were compelled to somewhat apologize, but the point is, if the Poles aren’t now aware of the nature of their American benefactors, they sadly deserve everything coming their way. (I did not mean to say the Poles collaborated, they obviously did not.)

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  133. “I might be mistaken, but it seems to me that the French and the Italians are, in Europe, those who are least influenced by the imperial propaganda machine,”

    How can you believe that, when a handful of Muslims can kill so many unarmed French?

    Look at the homeland of the imperial propaganda machine: a handful of Muslims kill so many unarmed Americans.

    A real leader of his people would have [in the second case] nuked a random Arab nation for starters; [in the first case] bulldozed the no go zones and deported Muslims.

    The whole sick white race is heavily influenced by ignorance.

    Yes, mistaken.

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  134. HdC says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Thanks for your post; saves me from having to research it for myself.

    Could you please point out your references for this? Thanks. HdC

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  135. Pagoda says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    After the Krauts saw the way the Finns held them up in that nasty little winter war, they figured it wouldn’t be too much of a struggle to grab Moscow. And someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Stalin off a bunch of military guys who had some good experience?

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  136. Ramaski says:

    What a hate filled hatchet job. Why does the Faker have nothing truthful to say about Polish history? Consider this blatant deception:

    “The polish view of history is nothing short of bizarre. For example, Polish politicians constantly blame the Soviet Union for the 1939 Soviet-German non-aggression Treaty (aka “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact”) of 1939. They conveniently “forget” that a full five years before 1939 Poland was the first to sign the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (for some reason not known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact”).”

    Contrary to this baseless innuendo, there was absolutely nothing shameful or wrong about the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (unless you’re opposed to peaceful diplomacy). And the reason it isn’t known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact” is because, unlike the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact, it didn’t contain a secret protocol to jointly attack and partition another nation. The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact also included an agreement to murder the entire Polish leadership at all levels. Equating that satanic plan with a peace treaty is the only “bizarre” historical view involved here. By the way, the “polish view of history” is spelled with a capital letter. And would the Faker be happier if Poland had been the 4th or 5th nation to sign an agreement that only existed between two nations??!! His baseless innuendo continues by telling us to just take a look at the Wikipedia entry for Józef Piłsudski (gasp!). But if you read it you will discover a courageous patriot who, against all odds and amongst many other accomplishments, turned back the advancing Soviets at the 1920 Battle of Warsaw, thereby saving much of war weakened Europe from a bloody Bolshevik takeover. There are many other falsehoods in this article but I only have so much time for correcting lies.

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  137. Seraphim says:
    @Cyrano

    @Do the fools in Eastern Europe really think that NATO was designed to protect them?

    Unfortunately, they do.

    @Haven’t they learned from history how US “helps” their allies

    Unfortunately, they don’t.

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  138. Svigor says:

    After the Krauts saw the way the Finns held them up in that nasty little winter war, they figured it wouldn’t be too much of a struggle to grab Moscow. And someone correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Stalin off a bunch of military guys who had some good experience?

    Stalin killed, gulaged, or otherwise purged most Red Army officers, yes. The further up you went, the worse it was. The higher their worth, the likelier they were to go (having left a record of “shaky” loyalties by grumbling about this or that particular of commie bumbling.). Socialists eat their own, something that doesn’t show up in the death counts, but is of vital relevance.

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  139. […] “Led by Poland, the European “House Negroes” Compete for the Darwin Awards”  “Romania and Poland Are Ground Zero Now”  “How Russia Is Preparing for WWIII” (comment re Secretary of State Nudelman-Kagan). Here’s a hint for the slow-witted:  if you watch your politicians slowly and painstakingly paint a big bullseye on your country, perhaps you should find new politicians. […]

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  140. @HdC

    Have a look here:

    http://www.h-net.org/reviews/showrev.php?id=4669

    In particular (this is a sympathetic reviewer):

    “Glantz’s use of Russian sources seems exhaustive for what is openly available to the public today. Most of his unique sources lie in “a category midway between what Westerners considered as primary and secondary source material,” i.e. military journals, training materials and memoirs mostly published in periods of relative openness before or after Brezhnev (p.345). Most actual archives effectively remain closed. Thus (and Glantz does address this), this particular book is not a first-person archival exposition of the topic, but depends on works edited by Soviet officials.”

    The reviewer later notes the particular build-up of Soviet forces near the Romanian border, i.e. threatening the Wehrmacht’s oil supply. Regardless of true Soviet intents, this situation could not have been tolerated by the Germans. Classic use-it-or-lose scenario.

    (BTW note that in general Glantz changes the subject from the question of whether the Soviets planned to attack to whether they were fully prepared for war, something very different.)

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  141. joe webb says:

    The House Negro, etc. Rip van Winkle there is the sacker.

    Right now we got the gangsta nigga, the AA affirmative action nigga, and the BLM, the black lies nigga.

    What are the equivalents in the Russia/ East Europe deal? Probably no plausible comparison, but the sacker is old I guess, and out of it.

    Joe Webb

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  142. ABCD says:
    @Boris N

    “I do not know what version of history you are taught in your Polish schools, but I’m sure it is very Polish-centric and very Polish nationalist.”
    Well, either you know it or you don’t – the law of the excluded middle.

    I’m not sure how to answer your rather rambling note: See, the lands between Russia and Poland had witnessed a constant friction between the two countries since “the time immemorial,” or about X A.D. There certainly has been some bad blood on both sides of the “isle.”

    That said, I limited my reply to the topics the article mentioned whereas you had to go all the way back to Napoleon.

    It’s true that the Russian chunk of the partition was the least oppressive from the three. And yet, I see nothing wrong with the Poles trying to regain independence (3 uprisings). The reprisal for the uprisings were severe and a lot of Poles landed in Syberia.

    I asked you for the source of your statement about the 1920 Polish-Bolshevik war and got nothing. From what I’ve read, Petlura’s army and the Polish army wanted (unsuccessfully) to stop Bolsheviks from taking Kiev and the rest of “Ukraine.”

    Then we have the infamous Ribbentrop-Molotov pact and de facto 4th partition of Poland in 1939. Then we have Katyn and the massacre of the Polish POWs. Then we have the bloody years of Communism…

    See, it’s all history and I don’t believe that using such words as hyena or vulture (your choice, it seems) is helpful to better understand history. However, I could say that overall the Poles never deported masses of Russians to, say, some Polish Syberia; they never occupied Russia for 134 years; they never executed Russian POWs in a Katyn-like butchery (the 1920 Russian POW died of typhus); and on and on.

    Ugly things happened as is always the case between 2 neighboring countries, each one having ambitions to dominate the region. Look at the maps (available on Wiki) from, say, X A.D. till now and see for yourself how fluid the borders of the region were.

    And thank you for the greetings, even though I am an American citizen, of Polish extraction, yes. Perhaps you’d like to know that I know many Russians living in the USA and we have no problems discussing our common history. But we don’t use words like hyena, vulture, etc. Same with my many German friends.

    Finally, I am firmly convinced that most Poles in Poland have no axes to grind against Russians. And I believe the same applies to most Russians. We have to be careful to not allow unscrupulous politicians to play us against each other. Putin seems to be doing an excellent job to maintain stability (Crimea included) in the region. I wish Poland had a politician like him right now instead of those Warsaw puppets.

    Cheers. And peace.

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  143. Melchior says:

    Maybe so, but by attacking first Hitler put himself in the wrong. This isn’t just an ethical issue BTW. For one thing, it ensured that the Japanese would refuse to help, since their pact with Germany and Italy was purely defensive and didn’t commit them to assist in an aggressive war.

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  144. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    For God’s sake, if you are going to quote someone, quote them accurately. Your Churchill quote is horribly botched. Churchill, who won the Nobel prize for literature, can be criticized for many things, but never for illiteracy.

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  145. 5371 says:
    @fatty

    Well, you get a prize for honesty, unlike your compatriots! But things didn’t go so smoothly throughout that war, did they.

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  146. 5371 says:
    @ABCD

    Once the White armies had disappeared from everywhere but the Crimea, Poland promptly invaded the Ukraine. I’ll charitably assume that you do know this fact but are confused in some way, since no narrative, certainly none produced outside Poland, ever claimed differently.

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  147. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I wrote:

    ‘And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had only six months before joined in the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.’

    Of course, I didn’t have the advantage of google translate.

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  148. szopen says:

    Just few words, bringing back some real facts into this discussion

    (1) Poland signed non-aggression pact with Soviet Russia in 1932
    (2) Poland signed non-aggression pact with Germany in 1934 (as part of “equal distances” policies). Poland also refused all offers from Germany of anti-soviet alliance.
    (3) Poland had not participated in Munich. Occupation of Zaolzie was devised as being counter-Munich (to show, that Poland refuses to divide European states into “great powers” and their satellites).
    (4) Soviet union acknowledged existence of secret protocols of Ribbentrop-Molotov pact in 1989. There was nothing wrong with non-aggression official part of the pact itself and is comparable to Polish-Soviet non-agression pact from 1932 or Polish-German non-agression pact from 1934. However, the pact had secret protocols, of which _nothing_ comparable can be found in polish pacts with either USSR or Germany.
    (5) USSR cooperated with Nazi Germany before 1940, providing Nazis not just with raw materials and wheat, but also giving them access to Soviet ports. USSR also discussed whether to join Axis.
    (6) Polish-Soviet war started in 1919 at least. USSR declared partitiions as void (which means it renounced rights to pre-partition Polish territories). Poles living in those territories started to create “self-defense” units, even when those territories were still occupied by Germans. In some cities Polish were minorities and withdrew (as from Mińsk, were Polish self-defense units withdrew without fight). In some (as in Vilnius) Poles were majority.
    Those self-defense units were attacked by Soviet forces invading from the east in 1919.

    Somehow, soviet apologists managed to maintain that it was Poland who attacked USSR in 1920, ignoring the fact that Soviets attacked Poland in 1919.

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  149. @Melchior

    Valid point, but it points to the likelihood that Hitler must have had a very compelling reason to attack, beyond mere opportunism (although we know he grossly underestimated Soviet military capabilities), and rejecting the cartoon version of madman bent on world domination.

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  150. 5371 says:
    @szopen

    You Poles love to wave around photos of Soviet and German soldiers meeting on formerly Polish territory in 1939 as irrefutable proof of a nefarious alliance. Do be so good as to tell us, in what way should we interpret the photos of Polish and German soldiers meeting on formerly Czech territory in 1938?

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  151. 5371 says:
    @Boris N

    “Slowly ruined” is good, in the sense that we are all slowly dying ))
    I think you could find insanity closer to home than in the USSR, if you tried hard.

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  152. annamaria says:
    @Svigor

    “After communism fell, how many Soviet war criminals and genocidaires were hunted down, a la the Nazis, and put on trial?”

    The lady doth protest too much. The recent count of the victims of the Middle Eastern wars has reached some 3 million (70 years after Nuremberg, btw). There are also some 10 million desperate refugees from the Middle East. Why was it so important to crush Iraq, Libya, Syria? These names should ring certain plan [Yinon] devised for certain small state, the one that munches freely on the US resources. Doubtless, there were “Soviet war criminals and genocidaires” in the Soviet Union, against other Soviets (i.e., internal affair). Now please tell us, how many “war criminals and genocidaires” of the US/EU extraction have been hunted down for their crimes against humanity in foreign countries during the last 15 years? Here are some names: Cheney, Blair, Bush, Rice, Clinton, Yoo, Tenet, Rumsfeld, Feith …..

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  153. Rurik says:
    @Svigor

    compared to NATO and the bankster controlled West today, Putin’s Russia looks not just as the only adult in the room, but morally they look like saints compared to the murderous Zio-demon destroying country after country

    or hadn’t you noticed?

    If that was all supposed to follow from the embedded link, you should know that I have them blocked and don’t watch them.

    No, it wasn’t in the link, it was and is all around us. It’s in the destruction of all the countries the Zio-West has destroyed on behalf of Israel since that false flag attack on 911.

    Was it Putin that destroyed Iraq and Afghanistan and murdered and maimed millions?

    Was it Putin that destroyed Libya?

    Was it Putin that fomented a bloody coup Ukraine?

    Is it Putin that is funding and arming ISIS?

    Is it Putin that is flying terror drones all over Pakistan and Yemen?

    Is it Putin that lies about Syrian chemical attacks and MH17 and the violent seizure of Crimea and just about every thing else?

    No, it is not. Putin has been heroic and statesman-like in his assistance of Syria, who the Zio-West has targeted for destruction a la Libya so Israel can steal the Golan (and the “sultan” can steal oil fields) and carve up Syria between these assorted vultures.

    All of this is obvious to anyone who’s been paying the minimal amount of attention to world affairs.

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  154. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    What do you mean by “wherewithal”?

    everything

    time, inclination, means, bent, proclivity ..

    things most people working to survive simple don’t have

    If that’s the case, why were there so many people on the streets and campuses protesting the Vietnam War? Did they have higher IQs back then?

    no, back then the universities and media were sympathetic to the cause of the reds in Viet Nam, and wanted the US out of there. So the media was the bullhorn against that war. How many newsreels do you see of Libya on the nightly news these days, eh?

    When’s the last time you saw an American casket being unloaded from a plane on television?

    Virtually the entire media in the US is owned and/or controlled by Jews and Zionists. They didn’t like the Viet Nam war, but they do like the wars for Israel very much indeed. That is why there was such a stink over the war in Viet Nam vs. the wars in the Middle East. They control the narrative with control of the media. If the NYT and uber-Zionist Rupert Murdoch were to decide they didn’t like the wars anymore, then they’d be over in no time.

    “Not sure I would agree to completely absolve from blame the average citizen living in so-called democracies“.

    if you’re an American who’s been lied to about 911, and believe the lies, then are you to blame when you suit up to go kill the bastards that attacked us? Or are the liars to blame?

    what good does it do to live in a democracy when the entire media and government is owned and controlled? When the school books print lies and all of your leaders and representatives all lie to you. Even you Geo, who can not be convinced of the treachery that occurred on 911, expect the average citizen to magically know how the twists and turns of Deep State Machiavellian treachery works in the world? Most people’s heads would explode if they knew just how rotten and corrupt their governments really are.

    The average person on the street has been systematically and deliberately dumbed down. They don’t think and they’re encouraged not to. The universities are indoctrination centers. The media is the voice of Newspeak. We live in Orwellian times, and even before it got to this, still most Americans were lied into WWI with lies about the Lusitania and Belgian babies in German bayonets. It’s all lies all the time. Lies about WWI, lies about WWII, lies about Viet Nam too. They lied about WMD, they lied about Iraqi incubators, they lied about Osama, they lied about MH17 and Syrian gas attacks and Crimea, and they lie and they lie and they lie. They lied about 911 and you believe their lies, yet you condemn the average schmo as complicit for the wars when you yourself refuse to look behind the curtain.

    Look, my point is a simple one: citizens of a democracy must recognize that with the privilege of living in a democracy comes the responsibility of being well-informed.

    and yet when it comes to something as significant as 911, you are the poster child for head in the sand, Geo. I’m sorry, but that’s how I see it.

    I’ve rarely in my life met someone who seems so intractably incapable of accepting what by now to the rest of us (who’ve honestly looked at it carefully) is obvious. So glass houses and all that..

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  155. @Svigor

    Hello, Svigor.
    I am an “English learner”, and can not always grasp the meaning of English words. You wrote:

    Stalin killed, gulaged, or otherwise purged most Red Army officers, yes.

    English word “most”: did you it mean more than 80%? Or, may be, more than 51%? Or, may be, more than 30%?
    Actually, the total number of Red Army in 1937 was 1.1 million of all servicemen. The number of officers (commanders of various ranks) in 1937 was 206 thousand. Taking 30% out of 206,000 yields 61,800 people. Did you mean that number?
    Actual number of commanders of various rank who left Read Army in 1937 was 36,761, of them arrested 10,868. (I can give you the source; it is in Russian language though.) Still, ten thousand human beings is a staggering number, a tragedy.
    If you take arrested ones, it constitutes 5%. Did you mean that 5% is, as you wrote, “most”?

    When you mentioned

    Stalin off a bunch of military guys who had some good experience,

    did you mean Marshal Tukhachevsky, who ordered and practiced taking and shooting hostages (women, children) from peasants of Tambov region during Russian Civil War of 1917-1919 ?
    Did you mean Army Commander of 1-st rank Yakir, who was military ‘raj’ of Ukraine during 1925-1937, and oversaw the suppression of the population by military force during the famous famine of 1933-35 (“Holodomor”) ?
    Did you mean Army Commander of 1-st rank Frinovskiy (shot in 1939), who was actually not in Army, but was deputy of infamous Ezhov, minister of State Security ?

    Disclaimer: I (I.f.f.U.) consider Lenin, Trotsky, and Stalin as a bunch of greatest tyrants in history.
    My own uncle, radio- and early-television-engineer, was arrested and shot in 1937.
    But not all, whom Stalin purged, were saints and qualified people.

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  156. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    I wrote:

    ‘And now, when every one of these aids and advantages has been squandered and thrown away, Great Britain advances, leading France by the hand, to guarantee the integrity of Poland – of that very Poland which with hyena appetite had …

    Yes, nicely put, Win.

    And the punctuation’s good. The absence of a comma before the “which”, in defiance of pedantry, drives the argument relentlessly forward to ‘the pillage and destruction of the Czechoslovak State.’

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  157. […] Written by TheSaker, originally appeared at TheUnzReview […]

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  158. Bayan says:

    The Saker says the Ukrainian state is Nazi; Clinton says Putin is Hitler. Who is right? Is fascism a useful concept? I mean if you look for some trace of fascism you can find it in any country you randomly pick. Therefore, a useless word. As to working with Hitler or Mussolini which country or tribe did not work for a while with them at some point during that era? Rapping the present issues in that history is stupid. Just focus on facts and issues of the present.

    Ok, history matters but the present matters more than history. So, what government on earth, fascist or democratic, willingly accept the annexation of its territory by brute force? Russia’s annexation of Crimea is illegal, and sets a dangerous precedent. But the people of Crimea have the right to self determination. There should be an internationally monitored referendum after a period of peace. The South Sudanese model is good. This should apply to East Ukraine region and Chechnya too. The model forces the powers in Kiev and Moscow to be good to their own citizens. It they want to win in a free referendum they have to offer a true democratic federal system to the regions. It is good too for every one else. But, I am talking logic, which does not always win over emotions.

    As to NATO and the US they are arrogant and dangerous. Let us hope the people of the world rebel against them. Have peaceful demonstrations everyday of the year in every country of the world until they stop their aggressive behaviours. I am dreaming!

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  159. Ivan K. says:
    @Rurik

    I did it?! … I don’t blame the powerless, I blame the powerful.

    1. I lack time for blaming. If we’re truly in a crisis then people’s lives, health (and honours) are at stake. Therefore I lack time for high moral grounds.

    2. The powerless are powerful. That’s what the alternative media say. That’s what the quoted Quigley’s analysis says. You can’t have it both ways, you can’t ‘have your cake and eat it.’

    Most Americans consider Edward Snowden a hero, even after they’ve been lied to about him.

    Edward Snowden was mass-promoted on cover pages of establishment magazines and so on. Russel Tice has been saying for years much more than Snowden has spilled and got absolutely no coverage. Sibel Edmonds, and her website partners, and her audience, consider Snowden a complete phony.

    I suspect that what stands for “the Jewish elite” is also a complex thing. Putin, in the speech you posted, says the “Soviet government Jews” were repressing other Jews. Well, what does that mean about their “Jewish” character? The Soviet government Jews had ideological motives different from those of today’s Israel. The former were revolutionary, Bolshevik, the latter are rabbinic.

    I’m glad we exchanged views and thoughts.

    The points I quoted are valid, I think. I can add other examples of the same pattern:
    - Hitler’s crimes were mostly things Hitler was kept in the dark by Himmler and Heydrich, and they were largely initiated by hundreds of low-level subordinates : those are David Irving’s latest findings in his ongoing writing of Himmler’s biography.
    - Stalin’s great crimes were probably mostly 1) made-up 2) Yezhov’s, whose purpose was provoking revolt and creating grounds for a pro-Nazi coup. (Grover Furr, building upon Thurston et al.). Again, it shows that the notion of evil elites misses important points.

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  160. ” having megalomaniacal Fascist national heroes is not only a Ukrainian feature.”

    Hilarious. Go to Kyiv, criticize Poroshenko and see what happens. Then go to Moscow and do the same to the KGB punk who pretends to run the country, and your life will be in danger.

    Anyone claiming the Ukrainian government is a fascist regime is a liar. To make it quite explicit, Saker is a liar and lies for the sub-presidential dwarf that heads Russia’s fascist regime.

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  161. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Aixa

    The vast territories were not grabbed by Poland but given to Poland by Stalin.

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  162. szopen says:
    @5371

    The difference is that there was a danger of real conflict in Zaolzie, no Polish radiostation provided a signal for German bombers, Poles have not been shooting to Czechs, and Czechs themselves offered day earlier a solution to Zaolzie (which Rydz ignored because he wanted a show). In addition, Poles were not cooperating with Germans in chasing Czech resistance.

    Also, no secret protocol was signed with Hitler about division of Czechoslovakia, and Hitler was not urging Poles to take an action against Czechoslovakia. Afterwards there were no common parades.

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  163. szopen says:
    @5371

    So, you are saying that Poland should not stop an offensive in 1919 and instead of ignoring pleas of whites and Western politicians demanding us to continue the offensive, we should join them in march to Moscow?

    Because, after all, war started with soviet units advancing from the east and attacking Polish local self-defense units.

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  164. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Location, location, location.

    Poland would not matter much to the West but for its location. Right between West and Russia. Some things never change in the game of Geo-Reaction.

    Korea serves the same role in Asia. I think Vietnam might come to play the same role in the Pivot against China.

    China now in serious geo-reaction mode.

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  165. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Saker needs to be more understanding of the Poles.

    Their bad history with Russians go much deeper.

    Poland was pretty much wiped off the map by Russians and Germans/Austrians, but mainly by Russia. So, it’s not just a resentment that goes back to the 20th century.

    Just like Russia has certain strong fears due to Napoleon and Hitler, Poles have their kneejerk reactions vis-a-vis Russians.

    Also, every nation has to have some outlet for its frustrations. I think current Poles are upset with Jews, Germans, and Americans who push crazy policy on EU.

    But Poland is too dependent on the US. (Also, US has a big Polish community).
    Poland depends on German economy.
    And Poles know that they better be cautious about speaking about Jews. Privately and even socially, there is a lot of talk among Poles that is critical of Jews. My Pole friends tell me all the time. But this kind of talk cannot be too public.

    So, how can Poland boost its nationalism and unity? The safe target is Russia.

    We see same thing among white American conzos. Many are really upset with black crime, Jewish Liberals, and fruitkin decadents. But Jews, Negroes, and homos are the holy three of PC. So, in order for white Conzos to feel big, tough, and strong, they need to find safe outlets, and they are Illegals(usually Mexicans), Chinese, Russians, and Iranians(and Muslims).

    Now, we all know Russia is no threat to Poland. Russia can barely manage itself.
    BUT, Russia is still an independent power. So, Poles still have some fear of it.
    In contrast, Poles know that Germany, despite its riches, is a political tool and puppet of the US. It is a whole nation. It is Whormany.

    Putin should make a public speech pledging that Russia will not attack or invade ANY nation that doesn’t attack Russia first. He should also say that it is not Russia that is pushing homomania on Poland. And it is not Russia that is demanding that Poland allow itself to be invaded by Africans and Muslims. Jews and EU are demanding that.

    But no real progress can happen unless the Global Narrative takes into account the role of Jewish Power.

    This is really a Jewish War on Russia. Jews fear the rise of gentile power as a threat to their model of ‘diversity’ they pushed on rest of Europe. Russia has its own diversity, but Russian Christians don’t operate on the premise of ‘guilt’ and apologetics.
    And it rejects the homo-imperialism funded by Wall Street and Hollywood.

    As for ‘hyena-ism’, what nation hasn’t acted like that?

    All nations looks for advantages and grabs what it can.

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  166. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    time, inclination, means, bent, proclivity ..

    Apart from time, which is a legitimate constraint, the other factors are traits, the absence of which, that lead to apathy. If you combine apathy with a media that constantly spews lies, you have a deadly combination, indeed.

    what good does it do to live in a democracy when the entire media and government is owned and controlled?

    This is indeed a lamentable situation, but I still think people should be held to account for their actions. Tell me something, why is it that the constituents in SC and AZ repeatedly re-elect Lindsey Graham and John McCain, while those in North Carolina, who were subjected to millions of dollars of negative advertising against Walter Jones, were not swayed by it and still ended up rejecting the neocons’ preferred candidate? Isn’t it because the North Carolinians were better informed? If that’s the case, shouldn’t we hold them up as an example other Americans should emulate? Or should we just throw in the towel and say that Joe 6 pack is absolved from all responsibility to be well informed? This is a recipe for disaster, IMHO. Notwithstanding the lies being spewed by the presstitutes, we need to hold people accountable for being well informed. The good news is more and more people are realizing they are being lied to and are rejecting the presstitute media in favour of internet sources. This is an encouraging trend that needs to continue. But we do ourselves no favors if we keep telling Joe 6-pack that he is completely blameless for continuing to dwell in a cave of ignorance. Rather than condoning this behaviour, we should be prodding him to “take an interest in politics, before politics takes an interest in him.”

    Even you Geo, who can not be convinced of the treachery that occurred on 911, expect the average citizen to magically know how the twists and turns of Deep State Machiavellian treachery works in the world?

    I think I’ve clearly laid out, in another thread, the reasons why I’m not convinced the 3 bldgs were brought down by controlled demolition. If you’d like to continue that debate, you’re welcome to do so by responding to my most recent comment there.

    I’ve rarely in my life met someone who seems so intractably incapable of accepting what by now to the rest of us (who’ve honestly looked at it carefully) is obvious.

    I consider myself to be in good company since your own sibling isn’t convinced 9/11 was an inside job, either.

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  167. bunga says:
    @Avery

    “In modern times, Turkey invaded Republic of Cyprus and gobbled 40% of it.
    Turks are still there 40 years after the ”

    Kudos to Turkey for grabbing that part of Cyprus . In 1974 Cyprus decided to join Greece ignoring the opinions of the Muslim citizen of Cyprus .

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  168. @Rurik

    if you’re an American who’s been lied to about 911, and believe the lies, then are you to blame when you suit up to go kill the bastards that attacked us? Or are the liars to blame?

    Reading The Panther, by Nelson de Mille.
    John Corey is Everyman, and demands that Everyman take responsibility for his judgments and his actions.
    regarding lies, Corey says:

    “Paranoid? Maybe. But we’d already been lied to. And lies are like cockroaches — if you see one, there are more.”

    that’s neither rocket science nor Thomistic philosophy. It’s common sense.

    re:

    if you believe the lies . . .are you to blame when you suit up to go kill the bastards that attacked us

    Yes, every person who voluntarily seeks and accepts employment in a military force whose known agenda is to kill people in another country, or to facilitate their colleagues in doing so, is guilty; is morally responsible; is culpable.
    No human person checks his moral agency at the door when he voluntarily applies for employment.

    To jump on Alexander’s favorite hobby horse, didn’t Nuremberg hand down the concept that “just following orders” is not a defense against doing wicked deeds?

    No one gets tossed in jail for not seeking employment with US military.

    If Americans did not voluntarily seek employment as killers in US military, then the lying leader-elites would have no one to carry out their evil deeds.

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  169. “I would compare EU as a brothel masquerading as a continental alliance, a brothel where Americans get serviced for free.”

    Political prostitutes they may be, but don’t kid yourself, they’re not cheap. The cost of our empire is severely straining the economic prospects of a lot of people at home, even though there is a lot of profit for elites who benefit by and buy policy. The billionaire who can’t be bought having gained the popularity he has, despite personal flaws, is due to a severe discontent over economic displacement.

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  170. @Anonymous

    Hardly. Stalin took east of the Curzon line, the territory he got in the non-aggression pact with Germany. Poland was pushed west, as was Belarus. Much of modern Poland was Germany, and much of old Poland is in Belarus and Ukraine.

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  171. Rurik says:
    @Ivan K.

    … I don’t blame the powerless, I blame the powerful.

    1. I lack time for blaming. If we’re truly in a crisis then people’s lives, health (and honours) are at stake. Therefore I lack time for high moral grounds.

    assigning blame and accountability are important for restoring sanity and the rule of law

    the reason Obama should go to the Hague and ultimately rot in some kind of prison is because that’s how you send a message. When Tony Blair is arrested by the British government and tried and convicted for treason, it’ll send shock waves through the entire demonic establishment all the way right up to Rothschild’s black and feculent heart.

    Look at Iceland, they didn’t just wrest control of their banks and government from the scoundrels and crooks that were running it, they put their stinking arses in jail!
    That’s what we need to do. For all the blood-stained war criminals and financial uber-criminal scum at Goldman Sachs and the Fed and the Treasury.

    It isn’t for smug moralizing that we should assign blame and accountability, it’s to show that there is a karmic price for evil, and that there is hope for justice in this world. Think how much cynicism that would remove from the hearts of good people.

    The Soviet government Jews had ideological motives different from those of today’s Israel. The former were revolutionary, Bolshevik, the latter are rabbinic.

    yes but the salient thing as far as the gentiles go is that they were both full to the brim with murderous hatred in their hearts for all the non-Jews.

    That is the part ab0ut the Jewish character that is troubling. Who cares if they manage to make tones of money or worship a mean and cruel God. The problem is their criminality and fraud and swindles like the Fed, and what they do with the power that kind of lucre gives them. It’s always war and war and more wars. With torture and strife and hatred tossed in for good measure.

    I’m glad we exchanged views and thoughts.

    same here

    - Stalin’s great crimes were probably mostly 1) made-up 2) Yezhov’s, whose purpose was provoking revolt and creating grounds for a pro-Nazi coup. (Grover Furr, building upon Thurston et al.). Again, it shows that the notion of evil elites misses important points.

    I don’t agree with that. Stalin was a monster. It was Stalin’s genocidal communism (Jewish Bolshevism) that was responsible for the unimaginable horrors of the twentieth century, IMHO. Hitler and the Nazis were merely a survival mechanism of the German people, (representing the entire Western world) against that Satanic and anti-human creed.

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  172. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    time, inclination, means, bent, proclivity ..

    Apart from time, which is a legitimate constraint, the other factors are traits,

    well, not to split hairs, but ‘means’ is also an important constraint. It means we possess the means of spending time researching and posting our findings along with analysis when we’re so inspired. Most people don’t possess the means, (financial wherewithal, for instance) to do so. Most people have to grind in the trenches, (as I spent most of my life doing) for survival.

    If you combine apathy with a media that constantly spews lies, you have a deadly combination, indeed.

    it’s the lies (and soul crushing ubiquitous and all pervasive mendacity) that causes the apathy

    people start to wonder that ‘everything is rotten and everyone always lies about everything’, that makes people lose heart.

    Tell me something, why is it that the constituents in SC and AZ repeatedly re-elect Lindsey Graham and John McCain

    because they’re lied to

    because in S. Carolina they go into their evangelical churches and the ministers are bought and corrupt and shill for ‘Israel’ and make lurid promises of everlasting ‘rapture’. These are people for whom being considered a ‘sheep’, is a good and noble thing. They talk of their ministers as ‘shepherds’ and themselves as ‘the flock’. They bray their hosannas as one.

    It’s the ministers who I blame, not these incredibly simple (stupid) people. Most people are like sheep Geo. That’s how the Gods created us.

    And as for John McBloodstain, I have no accounting for the people who would vote for that thing. Perhaps you’re right, in some cases, even the people on the very bottom, insofar as they’d vote for John McCain, deserve to die.

    But we do ourselves no favors if we keep telling Joe 6-pack that he is completely blameless

    most of these people are blameless. And I’m not just talking about the denizens of the US. But all people all over the world who struggle for a living and have no time for politics, because their baby is crying or sick or because they’ve just spent 12 hrs in the grind trying to make enough to cover the rent and expenses. This is most people Geo. They get their information from the television and radio and the others in their socio-economic circles with whom they speak and commiserate with.

    I like to bring up Pat Tillman because he is a perfect example of a honorable man who behaved honorably and even nobly when we were attacked on 911.

    Is there anything about what he did that you could find fault with?

    For a lot of people there is. He’s an American! So he’s guilty! He’s white and so he part of the patriarchy and he’s straight so he oppresses the LGBT people!

    There’s a lot of chaff in the blame game these days, so you have to sift out the garbage, and that’s one reason why I like to bring up Tillman. Because this was a man, from everything we know about him, was an impeccable person, and whose motivations and actions were even heroic. No?

    But he suited up ultimately to slaughter innocent people. But the crux is that he didn’t know they were innocent. He had been lied to. So you tell me, was he blameless? Or should he have known that 911 was an inside job, (before even I did). And that his government was sending him there to murder people who had done us no harm.

    Do you blame him for not knowing all of that?

    Do you blame him for sacrificing a charmed life of wealth and fame to exact justice on the murderous cowards who had just slaughtered 3000 fellow Americans?

    Or do you condemn him because he should have known it was the Mossad and CIA all along?

    IF, I thought that most Americans were going along with the wars while knowing that they were being waged against innocent people who had done us no harm, then that would be different. Then I’d condemn them in the most harsh way possible. IF, for instance you were to ask them, ‘hey, American, we’re thinking about blowing up Iraq and slaughtering a million of them so we can steal their oil, and you can pay a dollar less at the pump, what do you say?’ And if under those circumstances, the American people were saying ‘hell yea, fuck those towelheads, let’s take our oil! Then that would be something.

    But nothing like that is even remotely the case. The American people had to be lied to and a false flag attack was necessary to marshal them to war. And then as they began to have their doubts, they collectively held their noses and voted for a racist commie dirt bag from the notoriously corrupt Chicago street politics as president, only because he seemed less of a war monger than the Republicans. The American people are against the wars, and that’s a huge reason for Trump’s success. I have a hard time condemning them when I know their hearts are good, and that they’ve been lied to and are lied to from virtually every single msm outlet every minute of every hour of every day. Lies upon lies upon lies, always demanding war. (just writing those last three words does make me a little angry at the eternal Jew, alas)

    I consider myself to be in good company since your own sibling isn’t convinced 9/11 was an inside job, either.

    not apples and oranges

    they’re far too consumed by career and family to find the time you have spent seeking understanding. I suspect that if they had a tiny fraction of the information that’s been hurled your way, and with your gifts of erudition, that they’d have been swayed long ago.

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  173. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Yes, every person who voluntarily seeks and accepts employment in a military force whose known agenda is to kill people in another country, or to facilitate their colleagues in doing so, is guilty

    then your dad was guilty

    or are you saying that if you were drafted, then your killing of others was/is morally innocent?

    is that how it works?

    sure, I just dropped a bomb on the denizens of Dresden, but I was drafted after all!

    No human person checks his moral agency at the door when he voluntarily applies for employment.

    and the men who stepped up after Pearl Harbor (having been lied to), and said sign me up! Those cowardly bastards will pay for this!’

    are they too guilty?

    Most, I’d say like 95%+ of the Americans that sign up for the military (aside from the heroes like Pat Tillman) do so out of economic necessity. They’re poor kids from the heartland and Puerto Ricans and young urban minorities looking for a way out of poverty. They don’t want to kill anyone, they’re just looking for a way to pay for collage or get out of dodge. And as for the small percentage of psychopaths who join up to kill people, there’s psychopaths in every nation.

    It isn’t the American people that are the problem. They’re people just like all people all over the world, no better, no worse.

    The problem with America is the government. And media, and the international banking cartels that own both the government and the media fee simple. They’re the ones who’re guilty. They’re the ones who deserve to pay for all these wars and crimes and horrors. I draw a very distinct line between poor people who’ve been lied to and go to these contrived wars for the fun and profit of wealthy psychopaths and never come back in one piece, because even if they have their limbs and eyes, they’re missing something from their souls, and that’s why they’re killing themselves in epidemic numbers today. Because they’re just simple, good people that have been lied to by evil scumbags and sent to kill other simple, good people.

    If you blame the ones that were lied to for engaging in combat with the Taliban, then you have to also blame all soldiers for engaging in war. And I’m not willing to do that. There are times when fighting a Satanic demon is the most honorable and noble thing that a man (or woman) can do. IMHO

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  174. Rurik says:
    @Rurik

    Here’s another one

    a simple girl from poor W. Virginia who didn’t join the army to kill anyone, but for economic realties. And I like to mention her too because like Pat Tillman, everything they said about her was a lie. (Because that’s what they do! ; )

    and then when the whole machine churned up to sell the bullshit story about her as this warrior killer and hero, she told them all ‘no thank you, I don’t want to be the next Audie Murphy movie star, and I don’t want a life of fortune and fame, because everything you people are saying is a lie’.

    That is the kind of person who is in the American military. Simple, honest and decent people who’ve been forced by the Wall Street looters to find a way to survive.

    I find no fault with her. I even admire her for her honesty in the face of the Fiend.

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  175. L.K says:

    saker goes:
    “The Polish view of history is nothing short of bizarre.”

    The saker, being the biased propagandist he has shown himself to be, time and again, is is no position to lecture the Poles or anybody, for that matter, on “bizarre historical views”.
    His own historical views are oftentimes RIDICULOUS, a mix of lies, distortions, false analogies, cheap stalinist propanganda, etc.
    Look into the mirror first, saker.

    He follows with his usual idiotic false analogies:

    “For example, Polish politicians constantly blame the Soviet Union for the 1939 Soviet-German non-aggression Treaty (aka “Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact”) of 1939. They conveniently “forget” that a full five years before 1939 Poland was the first to sign the 1934 Polish-German non-aggression treaty (for some reason not known as the “Piłsudski-Hitler Pact”)….”

    Really?? This guy is really trying to compare the 2 pacts?!? The intellectual dishonesty of this saker guy is just mind–boggling.

    There is much to be criticized about certain Polish actions, then and now, but cheap polemicists/propagandists like the saker ain’t the answer.
    Very disappointing.

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  176. utu says:
    @Rurik

    Space shuttle Columbia with Israeli astronaut breaks up over Palestine, TX just before 2003 war and Jessica Lynch from Palestine, WV is captured and then rescued during the war few months later. Despite of MSM a true cause cause of that war was revealed twice in MSM by a mysterious process of Jungian synchronicity.

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  177. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @L.K

    There is much to be criticized about certain Polish actions, then and now, but cheap polemicists/propagandists like the saker ain’t the answer.

    Sir, the problems of Poland are not in “certain actions then and now”, the problem of Poland is fundamental and is what Correlli Barnett correctly identified as folie de grandeur, which is a defining characteristic of Poland’s body politic. To the point of NATO scratching its head.

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/militaermanoever-in-polen-mit-nato-staaten-aerger-um-anakonda-a-1096262.html

    Very few things are more dangerous then complete historical, military and political delusion. Or, as military professionals put it, the loss of situational awareness. As per propagandist, I think you fit the bill perfectly.

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  178. 5371 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    As I have mentioned before, one factor influencing the foolish behaviour of Polish decision makers in the crisis of 1939 was their delusion that, if war between the western powers and Germany became inevitable, Hitler would be ousted by a military coup. Similar delusions were not confined to Poland. Within a few weeks of the outbreak of war, Britain suffered major embarrassment after falling for a hoax based on the same premise.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venlo_Incident

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  179. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    geokat62 – Tell me something, why is it that the constituents in SC and AZ repeatedly re-elect Lindsey Graham and John McCain, while those in North Carolina, who were subjected to millions of dollars of negative advertising against Walter Jones, were not swayed by it and still ended up rejecting the neocons’ preferred candidate?

    Rurik – because in S. Carolina they go into their evangelical churches and the ministers are bought and corrupt and shill for ‘Israel’ and make lurid promises of everlasting ‘rapture’.

    For your argument to hold true, there should be more evangelicals in SC than there are in NC. But that’s not the case, the number of evangelicals in both states is identical, at 35%. And if we look at AZ, the number of evangelicals is even smaller, at 25%. So the stats don’t work in your favour.

    So, once again, my point is a simple one: with the privilege of living in a democracy comes the responsibility of being a well-informed citizen. Not sure why you’re opposed to this fundamental principle of democratic government:

    [MORE]

    Citizenship Responsibilities

    Citizenship is the state of being vested with the rights, privileges and duties of a citizen, but it can also be defined as the character of an individual viewed as a member of society. While U.S. citizenship provides many rights, it also involves many responsibilities.

    The U.S. government, as established in the Constitution, protects the rights of each individual regardless of background, culture or religion. Although all U.S. citizens enjoy the freedoms, protections and legal rights that the Constitution promises, citizens also have the responsibility, or “civic duty,” to meet certain societal standards and guidelines.

    Civic duties ensure that democratic values written into the Constitution and the Bill of Rights are upheld. Responsibilities include both those that are voluntary as well as those required by law.

    Mandatory Duties of U.S. Citizens

    Certain civic responsibilities considered central to the democratic philosophy of the country are required by law. U.S. citizens must comply with certain mandatory obligations, including:

    Obeying the law. Every U.S. citizen must obey federal, state and local laws, and pay the penalties that can be incurred when a law is broken.

    Paying taxes. All citizens must pay taxes in one form or another, including federal, state, local, Social Security, property and sales taxes. Each tax funds services and programs – i.e., schools, roads, police and fire protection, Medicare and national defense – that would be impossible to maintain without the support of tax payments.

    Serving on a jury when summoned. Whether a citizen or not, all persons have a right to a trial by jury made up of a panel of their peers. Jurors are drawn by lot from the general population of citizens in a jurisdiction, and once randomly summoned to jury duty are required to be available to serve. A citizen also may be summoned or subpoenaed to serve as a witness during a trial and, if called, has the responsibility to appear and testify under oath regarding information pertinent to a given event.

    Registering with the Selective Service. The Selective Service is a federal agency within the executive branch of government that exists to readily resume a draft, if necessary, to provide the number of men needed by the armed forces in the event of war or other national emergency. Federal law requires virtually all male U.S. citizens and male noncitizens who are ages 18 through 25 to register with the Selective Service. Men who do not register are subject to prosecution and, if convicted, may be fined up to $250,000 and/or serve up to five years in prison. Registration for Selective Service also is required to be eligible for various federal programs and benefits, including student loans, job training, federal employment and naturalization.

    Voluntary Responsibilities of U.S. Citizens

    Other civic responsibilities, while not mandatory, are central to democracy. U.S. citizens are encouraged to exercise certain responsibilities and privileges, including:

    Voting. While voting is a right and privilege of citizenship, it is also a duty or responsibility. U.S. citizens have a responsibility to participate in their government by registering to vote and voting in elections. By voting, citizens have a voice in their government and help ensure that the democratic representative system of government is maintained.

    Staying informed. Citizens have the responsibility to stay informed of the issues affecting their communities, as well as national and international issues, and to be active in the civic processes. This includes being well informed about the issues and candidates before voting in an election, getting involved in a political campaign or running for public office, or using their right to address the government through activism.

    Community involvement. Citizens also should contribute to the well-being of the community by recognizing where help or change is needed and by getting involved through offering their knowledge and talents to local organizations, committees and community projects.

    Practicing tolerance. With democracy comes diversity, and U.S. citizens have the responsibility to support and protect the rights of others and to respect the differences in opinions, religions, cultures and ethnic groups.

    Passing it on. It is the responsibility of citizens to pass along the importance of good citizenship to future generations. By teaching their children how to stay informed, to get involved, to obey the law, and the necessity of voting, parents and mentors demonstrate how to improve society.

    http://www.civics.ks.gov/kansas/citizenship/responsibilities-of-citizens.html

    I’d say that many of us, including myself, have fallen short of fulfilling many of these responsibilities. While all are important, I think the one that is of critical importance is “Passing it on.” We all need to ensure the next generation is aware of the responsibilities that come along with the privilege of living in a democracy.. i.e., even Joe 6-pack must pass it on.

    not apples and oranges

    I think your sister is so smart, she’d arrive at the same conclusion. She’d simply ask you the same question I put to JR: why would the planners go to all the trouble of using a top-down demolition approach to create the illusion that airliners brought down the Twin Towers, just to use the traditional bottom-up approach for bldg 7 which resembles a classic controlled demolition job, that would give it all away? This simply makes no sense.

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  180. Many have been said to prove propaganda of this article. I must also add that German-Russian dirty collaboration do not started in 1939, but in 1920′s, and in 1930′s it was full speed joint development of military equipment fir both armies, especially equipment forbidden for use by Germany, so Russia do everything to make nazi-frankenstein alive and nearly ended its own country by collaborating with III Reich in shaking world order. So it is not only Latvian or Ukrainian case of supporting Nazis (not forget Russian collaborates under Wlasow). In fact only Poland do not have it’s own Nazi-allied army. After 1990 Eastern Europe has gone to the Western sphere of influence, because even once archenemy Germany became friendly to them nation (with own interests of curse). Now those countries fight with expansionist Berlin. This an example how nervous those countries are, because of history.
    Russia also tries to shake world order, but same results here. Close relations with China and near vassalage meant that Russia have achieved strategic defeat. The best “circus” will be when western influence will not reach Eastern Europe. There will be Central Asia syndrome of fleeing under China aegis. In other world generally demilitarized European and Eastern European countries without NATO shield will militarize and will seek alliance with China. China now has started many projects aimed at European countries to bring them closer to China. This mean China will make their own rules in Eurasia. But still Europe (Russia included) will be taken anally and will end as Chine anus for their goods and will.

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  181. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @5371

    As I have mentioned before, one factor influencing the foolish behaviour of Polish decision makers in the crisis of 1939 was their delusion that, if war between the western powers and Germany became inevitable, Hitler would be ousted by a military coup.

    How to put it mildly, geopolitical analysis at that time was not a strong point in the age of paper mail and telegraph (well, telephone too;-). But multiply it by this “megalomaniac coefficient” and voila’. I heard of Venlo incident but never got to know it closely.

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  182. L.K says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Ha, it took a while!

    SmoothieX12,
    Your propensity to project your worst tendencies onto others is amazing!

    Comrade Smoothie, during our little exchange months ago, it became quite clear that you, sir, are a cheap Soviet propagandist and a LIAR.
    Yes, I like to be exact, you r a liar and I caught you lying several times.

    Anyone interested can see for themselves @ http://www.unz.com/akarlin/top-10-militaries-2015/

    Next to you, even the saker sounds good.

    To be clear, the reason you dislike what I have to say is simply that you are a peddler of “the great patriotic war” BS, and I’m one of those who has been presenting facts here which debunk it, and u just hate that.

    ps: for those who have not read my posts, and may get the impression I’m some russophobic guy, I most certainly am NOT.
    For example, my positions re the Russian Fed. foreign policy are generally very favorable.
    However, that does not mean one should eat Russian propaganda by the spoonful and ask for seconds.

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  183. @L.K

    Mr. L.K !

    I will not make any attempt to enter the arguments between you and SmoothieX12.

    Duplicate of my previous request to you.
    Thank you, esteemed L.K , for your this and the next post, both very informative.
    I agree that Suvorov emphasized the Stalin’s (USSR’s) role in starting WW2.
    I will try to read something out of your list. Can you pinpoint one particular book,
    preferably in English ? My German is extremely rusty and by now is reduced to
    “Aber die Ordnung muß sein”.
    Respectfully, I.f.f.U.

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  184. L.K says:
    @Immigrant from former USSR

    Hi, I.f.f.U.

    Let me think, Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof’s book has been translated into English, pretty good book and a very recent publication.
    1939 – The War That Had Many Fathers

    http://www.amazon.com/1939-War-That-Many-Fathers/dp/144668623X?ie=UTF8&keywords=the%20war%20that%20had%20many%20fathers&qid=1465343681&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1

    Dr.Post’s “Die Ursachen des Zweiten Weltkrieges – Ein Grundriß der internationalen Diplomatie von Versailles bis Pearl Harbor” is very good too, but only available in German.

    Dr.Hoffmann has been translated into English as ‘Stalins War of Extermination”, very good but focuses only on the Soviet-German conflict.

    “A Time for War” by Robert Smith Thompson focuses on Roosevelt.

    A pity that Bavendamm’s “Roosevelts Krieg. Amerikanische Politik und Strategie 1937 – 1945″ has never been published in English, only German.

    http://www.amazon.com/Roosevelts-Krieg-Amerikanische-Politik-Strategie/dp/3776620587?ie=UTF8&keywords=dirk%20bavendamm&qid=1465344592&ref_=sr_1_4&s=books&sr=1-4

    “Bankrupting the Enemy: The U.S. Financial Siege of Japan Before Pearl Harbor”

    http://www.amazon.com/Bankrupting-Enemy-Financial-Before-Harbor/dp/1591145201?ie=UTF8&keywords=bankrupting%20the%20enemy&qid=1465345347&ref_=sr_1_1&s=books&sr=1-1

    “The New Dealers’ War: FDR and the War Within World War II ” by Thomas Fleming;

    https://www.amazon.com/New-Dealers-War-Within-World-ebook/dp/B00AFYV636/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1465345582&sr=1-1&keywords=the+new+dealer%27s+war

    ‘Churchill, Hitler, and “The Unnecessary War” ‘ by Patrick J. Buchanan is useful too.

    A.J.P.Taylors ‘the origins of the second world war’ is dated but still important.

    Dr.Klüver has a very good one on the English warmongers but only in German.

    Hope that helps,
    Best regards

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  185. Thank you, dear L.K !
    I have copy(ies) of Buchanan’s book ‘Churchill, Hitler, and “The Unnecessary War” ‘,
    read it and like it.
    I ordered two extra books from the list just advised by you.
    With gratitude, your I.f.f.U.

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  186. Seraphim says:
    @Rurik

    @ It was Stalin’s genocidal communism (Jewish Bolshevism) that was responsible for the unimaginable horrors of the twentieth century

    CHEKA, GPU, NKVD were not Stalin’s creation, but of the Leninist-Trotskyist combo, the real ‘Jewish Bolshevism’ – the Comintern – from which Stalin actually slowly drifted away. How came that Stalin ended up in the Cominternist mythology, as a ‘rabid antisemite’, an exponent of ‘Great Russian nationalism’, a ‘traitor of the Revolution’? Precisely because he cleaned the GPU, the Party, the Army Augean stables of the Jewish Bolshevik dung. A Herculean task indeed, a dirty and smelly job, but that has to be done. There is no doubt that Grover Furr is right. A historian like J.W. Wheeler-Bennett, observing the events in 1938, gave the best explanation of the purges:
    “Though it is almost impossible to extract any clear and undisputed facts from the mystery which surrounds the Moscow treason trials of 1936 and 1937, it does seem possible to detect in the mental processes and in the activities of the accused, particularly Radek, Sokolnikov and Piatakov, a tendency to return to the tactics of what may be called “primitive Leninism” and to the psychology of the Brest-Litovsk period. The Old Bolsheviks (Jews) believing that the principles of Lenin and the ideals of the November Revolution had been betrayed by Stalin, and convinced that the U.S.S.R. could not resist an attack by both Germany and Japan, appear to have reverted to the pre-revolutionary strategy of sabotage and subversion in order to overthrow the Stalinist regime, and to the Leninist policy of defeatism and national immolation in order to placate for the moment the aggressive policies of the two Imperialist-Fascist Powers. The crimes of which they were accused, and to which they pleaded guilty, were none other than those very principles of destruction and disintegration on which Lenin based his fight against the Liberal Government of Prince Lvov and the Socialist regime of Kerensky, while the policy of defeatism was exactly that followed by him in regard to Brest-Litovsk.
    This latter doctrine had been established by Lenin again and again. ” It is impossible to attain this end [the Revolution] without wishing for the defeat of one’s own government and without working for such a defeat “, he wrote in Against the Current ; and, again, he warned American
    workers that ” he is no Socialist who will not sacrifice his fatherland for the triumph of the Social Revolution “. Nor was he content merely to preach the doctrine. Against the bitter opposition of the Left Communists, particularly Bukharin and Radek, within his own party, he pursued just this same policy in regard to Brest-Litovsk.
    What then would be more natural than for the Old Bolsheviks to fall back on these original principles ? Both Radek and Bukharin had publicly declared that in following the doctrine of defeatism Lenin had been right and they wrong. Is it not possible that the psychology of Brest-
    Litovsk reasserted itself and that, in negotiating with Germany and Japan for the cession of the Ukraine and the Maritime Province, they were reverting to the principle of the ” breathing-space ” in order to safeguard themselves from external aggression, while setting about the destruction of the Stalin regime which they regarded as having betrayed the Revolution? Moreover, had not Lenin himself accepted the facilities offered by Imperialist Germany on his return to Russia ? Was he not always prepared to spoil the Egyptians if by so doing he could strengthen or advance the Revolution?”

    Is it not what we see repeating today? Only that the Comintern rebaptized itself “The International Community?

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  187. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @L.K

    Comrade Smoothie, during our little exchange months ago, it became quite clear that you, sir, are a cheap Soviet propagandist and a LIAR.

    Sure I am;-)

    Good luck using your “latest archive data” on that.

    As per this:

    ps: for those who have not read my posts, and may get the impression I’m some russophobic guy, I most certainly am NOT.

    Yes, and I have a bridge to sell you and a unicorn living in my garage. Deal?

    To be clear, the reason you dislike what I have to say is simply that you are a peddler of “the great patriotic war” BS, and I’m one of those who has been presenting facts here which debunk it, and u just hate that.

    Judging by your reaction, I think it is the other way around but what do I know, I am a liar;-)

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  188. @Seraphim
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  189. The cunning Jewish Bolshevik mind is nothing without the Russian brawn – resentful masses, oppression and primitive class anger, pseudo-messianic chauvinism, rule by criminals, low level utopian theories, absence of the Enlightenment, cheap alcohol and pistols. All of those in one, however, – a terrible concoction, called The Soviet Communism.

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  190. And, Rurik, thank you for that educational video of president Putin that you posted – the silence in the audience is priceless.

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  191. ABCD says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    re: Your exchange with L.K.
    Yeah, ridicule is the last escape hatch when one is cornered and has no arguments left. Shame on you.

    Same with Boris N. & this other guy with a number instead of a name: you guys lack a critical distance to the historical material. The trees prevent you from seeing the forest. Good luck at finding that distance — without it you’ll be reduced to sputtering out lists of facts, without any deeper understanding of a bigger picture, a parochial view of history — quite common, to be sure. Try to do better.

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  192. I find the idea of a direct attack on the Russian Federation through the Baltics rather improbable. However, Poland shares a long border with Belarus. Nobody – no doubt I will be corrected if I’m wrong – seems to have mentioned some sort of intervention in Belarus, maybe under cover of some sort of colour revolution.

    Might this be the trigger for a robust response from Moscow and nuclear armageddon?

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  193. 5371 says:
    @ABCD

    I think I’ll do quite well without assuming as a preliminary to any investigation that Poland is the suffering messiah among nations, thank you very much.

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  194. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    without it you’ll be reduced to sputtering out lists of facts

    Since it is addressed to me. Well, for some reason I thought that lists of facts is what really matters. OK, I will stop my “reduction” by introduction of facts and will start to invent things;-)

    without any deeper understanding of a bigger picture, a parochial view of history

    Actually, kind Sir, I try to steer discussion into the real professional direction which involves operational and strategic assessments, operational coefficients and combat dynamics. You see, you may not know it but I have a professional military background with graduate degree in exactly what could be termed as war. Maybe that is why I tend to base my opinions not only on facts but also on the opinions of people such as Colonel David Glantz and Lieutenant Colonel Jonathan House, among many, that is people who do have serious background to pass serious judgments and make proper generalizations. So, for me “bigger picture” is more than just some alternative history written mostly (not all) by all kinds of hacks. But here, you opened a new can of worms since most people have no understanding of the distinction between information and knowledge.

    As per:

    Yeah, ridicule is the last escape hatch when one is cornered and has no arguments left.

    No, I actually enjoy the reactions and still smile from Saker nailing definition of Poland as a “house negro”–it is absolutely brilliant. I wish I could have come up with that;-)

    Good luck.

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  195. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Not sure why you’re opposed to this fundamental principle of democratic government:

    because it was fine when the electorate were educated and principled men and women with a common goal of mutual prosperity and mutual respect.

    We no longer have that now do we Geo? Not even fucking close..

    Practicing tolerance. With democracy comes diversity, and U.S. citizens have the responsibility to support and protect the rights of others and to respect the differences in opinions, religions, cultures and ethnic groups.

    what this has come to mean is handing over your lands and possessions and future of your progeny to those who hate your guts and want to see you destroyed and dead.

    Worship at the alter of “diversity” has meant, (and was always intended to mean) white genocide. Where Jews have used financial fraud and swindles to wrest control of our vaunted ‘democracies’ and foisted madness, strife and hate upon the people of the West whose single greatest weakness is their eternal kindness and seemingly lack of any ability to practice the kind of ethno-centrism that is the hallmark of all other races and groups.

    Diversity for Sweden means watching the women of Sweden being humiliated on the streets, while the forces of diversity destroy their ancient way of life. Hardly a intelligent policy, don’t you think?

    We all need to ensure the next generation is aware of the responsibilities that come along with the privilege of living in a democracy..

    good luck with that

    (sorry)

    even Joe 6-pack must pass it on.

    Joe sixpack is too busy being ‘in’ and ‘out’ sourced to care about anything more that finding the cash to put gas in his rust bucket to get to his shit paying job.

    He’s hardly the one to blame for all the wars and Wall Street uber-swindles and assorted atrocities the Fiend is committing everywhere it can today in the world.

    From the executives of Monsanto to the MIC to the abomination of morality and truth that is the media of the West to all the war pigs and assorted treasonous scum in our government, Joe sixpack can barely make heads or tails of the all-pervasive mendacity and corruption that is spiraling into the abyss these days and taking Joe with it.

    As btw it will take Poland with it too, as Poland embraces the Fiend and hopes for Kim Kardashian’s ass in their children’s faces. Poland needs to recognize that Putin today is their only hope for peace and to persevere. The West is rotten and twisted and savage beyond all hope.

    (trying to get on topic here a little late ; )

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  196. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Tsar Nicholas

    Might this be the trigger for a robust response from Moscow and nuclear armageddon?

    NATO can not win conventional war in Russia’s vicinity. That’s the starting point. Under these conditions, the side which most likely will try to escalate towards nuclear threshold is namely NATO, not Russia. Russia is not going to and is not interested in attacking anyone–why? What’s the point of attacking Poland? To “conquer” her? God forbids. In case of NATO conventional attack the response will be conventional, including on US territory. There are still some competent, however rare, people left in NATO structures, both political and military, who do understand the concept of being blown to smithereens.

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  197. Ivan K. says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    David Glantz

    People – Amazon reviews – say he’s been fed disinformation. What do you think?

    I’m just curious. I know him from his lectures only.

    Interestingly, Corelli Barnett is still alive, age ninety.

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  198. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Ivan K.

    People – Amazon reviews – say he’s been fed disinformation. What do you think?

    Some people also think that aliens from other galaxies live among us. I mentioned it many times, I will reiterate–information and knowledge are not the same. Using Amazon reviews as a source of assessments of historians who are universally (globally, actually) accepted as the golden standard of history is, frankly, not a good way to approach military history.

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  199. Rurik says:
    @Seraphim

    NKVD were not Stalin’s creation

    are you suggesting that Stalin didn’t use the NKVD for torture and murder and genocide? As a means of terrifying the entire populace of doomed and condemned citizenry to Soviet horrors and wide-spread terror?

    It was during Stalin’s reign that the NKVD massacred the mind and soul of Poland at places like Katyn. It was during Stalin’s foul and demonic reign that the NKVD visited so many horrors and death and misery upon the people that even today I suspect they’re sill reeling in some residual way from the sheer evil of it all.

    I find it incomprehensible, with what we know about Stalin’s sadistic and Orwellian reign – that anyone of good will could possibly try to act as an apologist for that satanic fiend.

    At least that’s how I see it. And I have no cross to bear or dog in that hunt, being an American generations removed from that time or region.

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  200. Rurik says:
    @Latvian woman

    >>bold text added<<

    The cunning Jewish Bolshevik (Zionist) mind is nothing without the Russian (bovine, cud-chewing, American) brawn – resentful masses, oppression and primitive class anger, pseudo-messianic chauvinism, rule by criminals, low level utopian theories, absence of the Enlightenment, cheap alcohol and pistols. All of those in one, however, – a terrible concoction, called The Soviet Communism (land of the exceptional people).

    it sounds eerily like you’re describing America today, Latvian woman

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  201. @Ivan K.

    See the link to a sympathetic reviewer I posted above. Even Glantz does not claim to have had free and unfettered access to the Soviet archives. Not surprising, as no such access exists. Anyone who claims that available Soviet evidence refutes Suvorov or confirms the Holocaust narrative is deeply mistaken.

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  202. @Andrei Martyanov

    My point, Smoothie, was to ask whether Belarus is the immediate target of all this NATO activity. Putin has been restrained in his response to the Kiev coup but could he ignore a NATO invasion of Belarus? I don’t think even the Saker has raised this possibility.

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  203. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Tsar Nicholas

    Putin has been restrained in his response to the Kiev coup but could he ignore a NATO invasion of Belarus? I don’t think even the Saker has raised this possibility.

    Lukashenko himself clarified that yesterday.

    http://rusnext.ru/news/1465316057

    Russia and Belarus are in full military alliance. Attack on Belarus is attack on Russia with all that follows–that is deployment of Russian Army in Belarus.

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  204. gwynedd1 says:
    @anon

    I think Montesquieu spoke rather disparaging of them and that they remained a feudalistic potato state was a surprise to no one.

    “; in general, the pleasures of the prince, that of despotic states; that of monarchies, the prince’s and the kingdom’s glory; the independence of individuals is the end aimed at by the laws of Poland, thence results the oppression of the whole.”

    Poland’s leadership has always been poor. If they would stop their mindless grudges they would see themselves straddling East and West. By taking a neutral stance between Russia and the Nato they could win favors from both. The model city state for this master stroke was Dubrovnik which won favors from the Ottomans as a means to keep them out of a Western orbit and they won a beautiful little republic from it.

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  205. @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanks for the link.

    My first attempt to put it through Google Translate resulted in the message, “Clinton 2016″

    It worked the second time.

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  206. bunga says:

    “As the U.S. government ratchets up a new Cold War, Poland is taking hostility toward Russia to the next level, inviting in U.S. military bases and arresting an anti-NATO politician on vague “espionage” charges, writes Gilbert Doctorow.

    By Gilbert Doctorow

    Poland has pleased the U.S. government by joining in the scare-mongering over supposed Russian imperial designs on the Baltic States and Eastern Europe and by helping to persuade NATO to invest men and equipment in quasi-permanent military installations on Polish soil.

    The construction of an American missile defense radar center with ballistic and other missiles is proceeding apace, turning the country into a U.S. bastion and potential launch platform against Russia in possible violation of existing agreements governing intermediate-range nuclear weapons.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/06/03/polands-cold-war-ii-repression/

    German Officials Raid Investigator’s Home, Seize ‘Explosive’ MH-17 Documents
    Swiss Govt Also Seizes Private Eye’s Safe Deposit Box
    by Jason Ditz, June 07, 201 http://news.antiwar.com/2016/06/07/german-officials-raid-investigators-home-seize-explosive-mh-17-documents/

    No one wants war everybody is making sure that where we end up .

    Now in US I believe Donad Trump’s self sabotage is not accidental It was all planned to give the presidency to Hillary

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  207. HdC says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Stalin refused to sign the Geneva agreement regarding the treatment of prisoners of war. Thus Hitler ordered the treatment of Soviet prisoners to be the same as German prisoners were treated by the Soviets.

    I’ll leave it to you to determine the percentage of German prisoners that returned in the mid 1950′s. HdC

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  208. @HdC

    This is true, but my understanding of the Geneva conventions is that the Germans, as signatories, were still obliged to honor its provisions in the treatment of non-signatories. Now, the reality is they were completely unprepared for the mass of prisoners they took early in the war, and as was accurately noted above, the Soviets used their disregard for their subjects lives as a weapon. And of course unlike the communists the Germans made an attempt to come to an agreement. They still bear some responsibility for their actions, however.

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  209. L.K says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Comrade Smoothie,
    with his mouth shut, a poet.

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  210. L.K says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Beefcake,

    In the context of what the quacks und court historians tell us, yes, Lebensraum IS a myth.

    Barbarossa, as you correctly noted, had NOTHING to do with any search of Lebensraum.

    The quacks who advance this sort of thing count on our complete ignorance of the geopolitical, diplomatic and military issues which truly led to operation Barbarossa.

    It would have been political and military madness for the German command, to have turned on the USSR out of some ideological determinism, while Germany was in a increasingly bad strategic situation, facing unfinished business with Britain( the unsinkable carrier ) and its empire and the looming prospect of the US entering the war on the side of the British.
    This danger was much enhanced after the failure of the air campaign over Britain in the fall of 1940. It must be remembered that the German leadership understood the US special relationship with Britain and had learned of the FDR administration anti-German war mongering in Europe, even b4 the war, and confirmed the US agressive aims at fomenting a war in Europe after documents were captured, first in Poland in 1939, and later in France.

    To launch an attack on the USSR at that juncture would entail a huge risk and the prospect of the much feared war on 2 fronts, basically unwinnable for a country such as Germany. Precisely to avoid such a scenario Germany had signed the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Treaty of 23 August 1939.

    From Stalin’s perspective, the pact was a trap, which the Soviets did NOT need to have signed at all, had Stalin and his entourage had peace and only the security of the USSR in mind, which they did not.
    It was designed to get a large scale European war in motion, pitting Germany against the Western powers. As Suvorov explains, the Soviets cunningly cheated the Germans, who invaded Poland alone while the Soviet forces stood still on Poland’s eastern borders until Sept.17, despite constant German demands that they fulfill their part of the agreement and invade. Eventually the Soviets did and took half of the country but, as Suvorov explains, Britain and France were not interested that the USSR enter the war on the side of Germany(nor did they really care about Poland) and the Soviet delay to invade made it easier for France and Britain to look the other way. Germany got hit with a war declaration, the USSR did not. Hitler and Germany alone got to be blamed for starting the war while Stalin, the breaker of nations, sat on the sidelines, the USSR as a ‘neutral’ country, just waiting to pounce at the most opportune moment.

    As military historian H.Magenheimer explains, despite the massive German victory over the Western allies in the summer of 1940, Germany’s strategic situation became complicated, given the refusal of the British to negotiate an end to the war. The key goal of German command after the 1940 summer campaign was to either create conditions to pressure the English to negotiate an end to the war or to otherwise knock them out. Several options were considered; the most effective would be a invasion of Britain itself, however this option was also the most risky, particularly in view of the weakness and small size of the German navy and the strength of the British fleet.

    Interestingly, one of the other options considered, was to form a massive continental Eurasian bloc extending from Europe to Japan, AND including the USSR, as a means to face the anglo-american threat and force the brits to the negotiating table b4 the US intervened. The USSR leadership’s dupliticity, unreliability and aggressive and threatening behaviour towards Germany eventually ruled that option out.

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  211. Seraphim says:
    @Rurik

    @are you suggesting that Stalin didn’t use the NKVD for torture and murder and genocide?

    No, certainly not and I am not trying to excuse it, as you suggest. But I try to understand things from a more historical perspective. From that perspective things do not appear so black and white as from the ideological-propagandistic perspective.
    No doubt that the Katyn massacre can not possibly endear the Russians to the Poles, but it was not the cause of the present Polish Russophobia which goes back generations (before the partition of Poland). Russians and the Poles cum Lithuanians have been practically in a state of permanent war since the 14th century. The occupation of parts of Poland by the URSS is a late effect of the Peace of Brest-Litovsk.
    Gruesome as they were, the Katyn massacres were rather war crimes (“The chief motive for this criminal proposal was a realisation that the prisoners expected liberation in order to join the struggle against Soviet authority”, “the extermination of the Polish prisoners of war was a war crime in the strict sense of the term, within the meaning of art. VI b of the Charter (Statute) of the International Military Tribunal” – @http://ipn.gov.pl/en/news/2006/decision-to-commence-investigation-into-katyn-massacre).

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  212. Seraphim says:
    @Latvian woman

    Did you, by any chance, that one of the founders of the CHEKA was:

    “Yakov Khristoforovich Peters (Latvian: Jēkabs Peterss, Russian: Я́ков Христофо́рович Пе́терс, English: Jacob Peters, Jan Peters) (3 December [O.S. 21 November] 1886 — 25 April 1938), a Latvian Communist revolutionary who played a part in the establishment of the Soviet Union. Together with Felix Dzerzhinsky, he was one of the founders and chiefs of the Cheka (VChK), the secret police of the Soviet Union. He was the Deputy Chairman of the Cheka from 1918 and briefly the acting Chairman of the Cheka from 7 July to 22 August 1918.
    Peters was arrested and executed during the Great Purge on April 25, 1938. His conviction was overturned posthumously in 1956.
    In 1920 he represented the Cheka in the Northern Caucasus and served there as the Commissar of the Northern Caucasus Railways. In 1920-1922 was the Cheka plenipotentiary in Turkestan ASSR, where he also was the local party bureau member. There he led numerous operations against the anti-Bolshevik formations of Dutov, Annenkov, and Enver Pasha. He returned to Moscow in 1922 and worked as a high-ranking official in the OGPU, Rabkrin, and as the chief of the Eastern department of the GPU (created on June 2, 1922).”

    Did you also know that Latvian ‘brawn’ was terribly effective in “the terrible concoction, called The Soviet Communism? And why?
    “The reason why the Latvian Red Rifleman is sometimes called the core of the Red Army and the rescuers of communist revolution was their great discipline and will power. The Red Army units were often unorganized and cowardly. The Soviet commanders lacked talent. So the Soviet leadership sent Latvians to the most troublesome spots of the front where other Red Army units could not handle”. The Russian ‘brawn’ was inadequate (they were reluctant to shot Russians).
    “In May 1917 the Latvian Regiments transferred their loyalty to the Bolsheviks. They became known as Red Latvian Riflemen (Latvian: Latviešu sarkanie strēlnieki, Russian: красные латышские стрелки) and actively participated in the Russian Civil War. The Riflemen took an active part in the suppression of anti-Bolshevik uprisings in Moscow and Yaroslavl in 1918. They fought against Estonia, Denikin, Yudenich, and Wrangel. After victory in Oryol-Kromy operation (ru:Орловско-Кромское сражение) against Denikin in October 1919 division of Latvian Riflemen received the highest military recognition of that time: the Honorable Red Flag of VTsIK. Jukums Vācietis (Russian: Иоаким Иоакимович Вацетис, Ioakim Ioakimovich Vatsetis), formerly a colonel in the Latvian Rifles became the first commander-in-chief of the Red Army.
    The Latvian Red Riflemen were instrumental in the attempt to establish Soviet rule in Latvia in 1919.”
    Many of Latvian Riflemen like Vācietis, Bērziņš, Pētersons and others stayed in Soviet Russia and took high governmental posts. In the purges of 1937-1938 the remaining elite of the Latvian rifleman was eliminated. ”

    Even if it is not sure enough that a squad of the Riflemen executed the Imperial Family in Ekaterinburg, it is (even grudgingly) admitted that “Latvians did took part in many Soviet atrocities”, where they became notorious for their cruelty towards prisoners and their faithfulness to the new regime.
    I was wondering whether the Soviet era monument for the Latvian Riflemen in Riga (Strēlnieku piemineklis) is still standing! Well, it is!

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  213. @L.K

    Yes. Also, the Germans wouldn’t have only been aware of US/British political alliances, but also the fact that well before they formally entered the war, US warships acted provocatively towards German u-boats in the Atlantic. Hitter wisely declined the bait then, it’s still a mystery to me why he declared war on the US after Pearl Harbor, as he was under no obligation to do so.

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  214. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @L.K

    In the context of what the quacks und court historians tell us, yes, Lebensraum IS a myth.

    Sure it was, and so were concentration camps. I really appreciate your qualifying part on “court historians”;-) As I stated last time around, I will repeat again–you really need to get back on your meds and start limiting yourself in reading revisionist crap. It is obvious that you have some serious problems–I don’t know who you are, I suppose you are of Polish origin (maybe disgruntled German?), correct me if I am wrong–but you have to control your urges, otherwise you will drive yourself to an emotional wreck state.

    1. You do qualify as what this time around (2015 re-publishing of his seminal work When Titans Clashed) Glantz characterizes as “anti-Communist conspiracy theorist” and “German apologist”. Especially for you I re-post this. Mind you, this, much larger than original, version of Glantz and House seminal work is with the latest updates from those “new” archive documents.

    2. The lists of “historic” literature you post here periodically testify to the fact that you are a militant amateur in anything related to war as in operational art and strategy, since no respected professional will insert anyone such as Meltyukhov, especially after what he writes in his Stalin’s Lost Chance, who as incompetent in military affairs as you are, as a serious source. Mind you–I am talking here about things of real military art and science–those things are not taught in humanities field, they are hard and require good level of academic proficiency. Meanwhile, history being in its popular part (that is presented to ignorant house wives like you for entertainment and sold in retail) not even a science, let alone precise science, but the range of interpretations which rely heavily on…public opinion, most of it ignorant. Factual and knowledgeable and compelling in the court of public opinion are not always the same. It is only natural for avid conspiracy readers like you to gravitate to all kinds of interpretations which reaffirm your deep psychological issues. I refer you to your previous post where you try to declare yourself not a Russophobe, which in reality–you are, and a militant one at that and it shines through. If you are a Pole–that explains a lot.

    3. As I already stated before, unlike Rezun, who is manifestly incompetent (and he didn’t really write his books), I am ready to talk about what and how was fought on the Eastern Front and how numbers factored into the number of doctrinal, strategic, operational and tactical decisions. The problem? It wouldn’t matter if it is done with you since you exhibit all properties of propagandist and a person who is not acquainted with even basics of operations theory.

    4. This thread is about Poland and her being, as Saker brilliantly noticed, a “house negro” with a serious moral and mental problems. I understand that for you, CBE Correlli Barnett’s assessment of Poland’s role in fomenting trouble in pre-WW II Europe is not a pleasant read but now current events prove Barnett’s and even Churchill’s, and many others, point brilliantly. A petty nation which tries desperately to make herself needed and important by stirring the trouble. I by no means try to generalize on all Poles, in the end, many truly close and very friendly relations were forged between Russians and many Poles in post WW II period and majority of Russians, your truly included, always had a very soft spot for Polish culture–from Daniel Olbrychsky and Barbra Brylska to Pub 13 Chairs and Stanislaw Lem. But today, Poland is not only clear and present danger to herself (that would be fine) but is on the front line of provocation and stirring troubles in Europe. Polish Russophobia reached such a fever pitch that not only it is entirely possible but now is fairly probable that some moron, at some time will miscalculate and it will end really-really badly for everyone on this planet. But then again, after reading couple of years ago interview of the CO of Polish Special Forces Detachment “Grom” I am, indeed, wondering–are there any mentally fit people left in Poland? But then again, I need to make a disclaimer–I don’t really know where are you from. Otherwise, your posts merely confirm an emerging pattern.

    P.S. I am not going to argue with you on serious issues of war, it will be a waste of time, but I am in the process of “collecting” my non-polished thoughts and ideas on WW II in my blog and there I do address some specific military history and strategy issues the way they are supposed to be addressed by professionals. I may publish a book on that, after polishing and editing, but I am yet to decide on it. If you are interested in learning, be my guest. If not, then there is no reason to continue to argue. How far the illness went? It is for you to decide, but unfolding events may give you some shock treatment in your possible partial return to reality.

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  215. szopen says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    A mentality very typical for a Russian (though, to be fair, though common, fortunately not all Russians share this imperial, chauvinistic outlook on the world). If a country wants to be sovereign and refuses to be treated as a satellite, then it means it has “serious mental problems”. In order for Poland to be recognised as sane, I recon we should

    (1) Consult with Russia about our choice of allies
    (2) Consult with Russia whether we can allow allies’ armies in our soil
    (3) Never complain when Russia openly declares it has imperial destiny and Poland should be in Russian sphere of influence
    (4) Never complain when Russia randomly introduces embargoes on our products, without a any relation to products quality or our current politics with Russia
    (5) Never complain when Russia blocks our port in Elbląg
    (6) NEver complain when we are dictated large prices for gas
    (7) Never search for other alternative sources of gas
    (8) Never remove monuments for Soviet aparatchiks who were murdering Polish underground fighters.

    Of course, for a lot of Russians, it is obvious that countries are divided into empires: Russia, Great Britain, USSR – and all the rest, who have basically slave status, no rights and should be happy if great empires allow them to exist.

    That this, Poland basically has no right to behave as sovereign power or define her own interest. Sane Poland should never fight, always bow to larger countries, and always ask them for advices, because Poles are, indeed, treated as “white niggers”. If Poles say “fuck this, we refuse to be treated as niggers” then it is “folie de grandeur”.

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  216. Rurik says:
    @szopen

    (2) Consult with Russia whether we can allow allies’ armies in our soil

    if those armies are the armies of the NATO goon who’s been recklessly bombing and destroying country after country, and foisting bloody coups in places like Ukraine, were the strife has caused massive loss of life, then yea, I think it’d be prudent to consider the wisdom of such a monumentally stupid course of action.

    (4) Never complain when Russia randomly introduces embargoes on our products,

    randomly?

    it has nothing to do with Poland’s participation with sanctions on Russia over the strife in Ukraine? The strife that was foisted by the US State Dept.?

    If Poland is determined to act like ZUSA’s little bitch, then Putin is correct in punishing her.

    (8) Never remove monuments for Soviet aparatchiks who were murdering Polish underground fighters.

    could not agree more!

    the monuments to the Red Army rapists are an abomination, and should all be removed

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  217. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    If Poles say “fuck this, we refuse to be treated as niggers” then it is “folie de grandeur”.

    You are conflating two things: “folie de grandeur” is not in the fact that Poles want to fight–in fact, this is commendable, the problem is in complete Polish lack of situational awareness on the scale of Polish capabilities which leads, inevitably, to two things:

    1. Massive overstretch and defeat;
    2. Urgent search for a much larger and more powerful boss.

    It is not that Poland is treated as “house negro”, it is the fact that she behaves like one. Poland was the main pusher for NATO expansion the strategic dangers of which were described by many competent people. Nobody listened but everything in this life has consequences.

    Poland is not a great power but she tries to act as one, as long as a master is near.

    That this, Poland basically has no right to behave as sovereign power or define her own interest.

    Poland has all rights as long as she understands the nature of power balance and her place in it–but she doesn’t. I already introduced here the article from highly anti-Russia Spiegel, but even this rag scratches its head. And then, of course, comes purely military aspect of this whole ordeal. Now Poland tries to piss off both Germany and Russia.

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  218. @Seraphim

    thanks for the information, Seraphim.

    One take-away is that Bolshevik leaders successfully exploited the diverse ethnicities within the broad Russian population — they were able to set one ethnic group against the other to enforce the agenda of the elites.

    Corporations in the USA did something similar in the early 20th century — set groups of laborers against each other, i.e. Irish against Polish, etc. — where one group could not understand the other and would not, therefore, unite against the overlords but would be willing, if paid or incentivized to do so, kill the other.

    US military– hell, US society is pretty much in that same situation today: Latinos, Blacks, and other recent immigrants who have less of a stake, or at least a more-recent stake in USA have, nevertheless, the ability to divide the Union against itself, and in their profound ignorance can bring about a situation where Black and Hispanic as well as white American police will shoot and kill other Americans.

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  219. L.K says:

    So, why did Germany strike the USSR in June 1941?
    We need to know the history of what happened in the East after the signing of the German-Soviet Non-Aggression Treaty of 23 August 1939.

    W.N.Sanning summarizes it well:

    “The German-Soviet Non-Aggression Treaty of 23 August 1939 provided for the following territorial divisions: Estonia and Latvia would fall into the Soviet sphere of interest while Lithuania would fall into the German. From Lithuania the line of demarcation would run toward East Prussia, from there along the Narew, Vistula, and San rivers toward the Carpathian mountains. After the Polish defeat, the Soviet government immediately exerted heavy pressure on Germany for a revision of the treaty. In order to maintain peace, Hitler agreed in the second treaty, the so-called Border and Friendship Agreement of 28 September 1939, that Germany would relinquish its interest in most(but not all) of Lithuania in exchange for the area between the Vistula and the Bug [...]. While Germany was engaged in the Western Campaign from 10 May until 24 June, 1940, the Soviet Union occupied the entirety of Lithuania between 16 and 22 June following the ultimatum of 15 June – that is, including even that portion which was to remain within the German sphere of interest according to the treaty. This occupation constituted not only a gross violation of the two Soviet-German treaties but also of the Soviet-Lithuanian Treaty of Mutual Assistance (10 October 1939).
    The German government was neither consulted nor informed of this Soviet action as required under the treaty provisions. The northern Bukovina region of Rumania, which was outside the agreed-upon Soviet sphere of interest, was similarly appropriated by the Soviets, although in this case the Soviets pressured Germany into giving its “consent” within an ultimative time period of 24 hours before occupation. I mention these developments only because they demonstrate the determination with which Russia removed German strategic advantages while improving her own. They also show that Germany had no definite military objectives against the Soviet Union because otherwise it is inconceivable that she would have tolerated Soviet usurpation of the strategically invaluable Lithuanian gateway to Leningrad and Moscow.”

    So, through agressive war on Poland and Finland, invasion and annexation of Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania and threats of war against Romania, the USSR increased its already enormous territory by 426,000 sq.km, i.e, about the surface area of all of Germany as of 1919.
    In so doing, Stalin demolished the wall of buffer states which separated Germany and the USSR – in the case of Lithuania, in fact, reaching the border of Germany proper(East Prussia), greatly improving his base for offensive deployments towards Germany. Obviously such moves make little sense defensively.

    Worse, as several historians have noted, through these aggressive moves westwards, Stalin encroached on Germany’s vital and fragile raw material locs. Germany is generally poor in raw materials and the European countries which came under its control due to the war were also without strategic raw materials. Without them Germany’s economy would crash and, most importantly, its military industry and armed forces could not go on fighting the drawn-out conflict Germany had become embroiled in. The Soviet leadership knew that very well. Germany got its raw materials from the USSR itself and a few other countries, basically Sweden, Finland and Rumania. The Soviet expansion had basically put all of Germany’s strategic resources in grave danger; the iron ore from Sweden, timber from Sweden and Finland, nickel from Finland, and perhaps most important of all, petroleum sources in Rumania. With the British navy blocking petroleum shipments by sea, Germany got by with imports from the USSR and Rumania. The Soviet occupation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina from Rumania, placed the red army only 180 km from the Ploesti oilfields.

    As Magenheimer states, the haste with which the Soviets conducted these operations in Germany’s rear, while it was fighting in the West, made the German leadership extremely suspicious of Soviet intentions. Suvorov is blunter; Stalin spooked the German leadership.

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  220. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik: “could not agree more!
    the monuments to the Red Army rapists are an abomination, and should all be removed”

    Rurik, Shush!! How dare u say such a thing about the red army liberators??

    Particularly in front of comrade Smoothie, our shameless Stalinist liar and great patriotic war bullshi*ter?
    :-P

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  221. 5371 says:
    @szopen

    It shouldn’t be about feelings, though. If you want to violate a stronger country’s sphere of interests, or to set up a cordon sanitaire against that country where none formerly existed, and you rely for security while doing these things not on your own strength but upon that of an ally halfway around the globe, you cannot expect your position to be a comfortable one.

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  222. szopen says:
    @Rurik

    You are aware that Russia was establishing embargoes on Polish products since two decades no matter of our politics? Previous one was in 2011, before that in 2005, and there were also one before that.

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  223. szopen says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Basically, if the choice would be fight without chance of success OR live but subdued, we would choose fight almost every time. It’s not because we have dreams of our power or whatever. We often fight even without the smallest chance for a success. It’s quite possible that we would fight even against a whole world, in a totally hopeless situation.

    As for NATO expansion, it’s rational move from my point of view. After all, on our own we have no chance to stop even small-scale Russian operation. The only chance to keep our sovereignty is to ensure that attack on Poland could cause war with USA.

    I remember discussion on one of Polish military forums: what would happen if Russia would decide to start a small-scale operation, say strike several dozen military targets in Poland, maybe start land-operation from Belarus? The answer was (it was more than decade ago, remember) that nothing would prevent Russia from doing that. Russia would attack, while Germany, UK and France would start “diplomatic” pressure, and the would withdraw, and UK and French would declare their great success. Does anyone actually believe France or Germany would fight?

    The only country in the world which would be willing to actually oppose Russia is US. That’s why the only rational move on our part, if we want to keep our independence from Russia, is to have US soldiers on our soil, so attack on us would be attack on US. Note that I am not saying it is rational from US point of view, or German, or France. I don’t give a shit about their point of view.

    And yes, we think that Russia is perfectly capable and willing to do such operations. To put it simply, we don’t trust your government. It’s not that I hate Russians, far from it – personally I have a great admiration for Russian people and I had great time when I was in Russia.

    And, frankly, it does not seem to me as we try to act as great power. We try to act as medium-sized country willing to defend our own interests.

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  224. szopen says:
    @5371

    Sure, but the alternative is to accept the role of a de-facto satellite.

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  225. 5371 says:
    @szopen

    2005 was right after the first maidan follies, so “no matter of our politics” is sounding very dubious.

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  226. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    As for NATO expansion, it’s rational move from my point of view. After all, on our own we have no chance to stop even small-scale Russian operation. The only chance to keep our sovereignty is to ensure that attack on Poland could cause war with USA.

    At this stage it is not even the fact that Poland is in NATO, it is the fact of Poland stoking anti-Russian hysteria within NATO. There is a huge problem with this hysteria and why it is being fanned:

    Poland needs to obtain any kind of US backing for both political (Russian “threat”) and economic reasons:

    1. The times of cheap and and readily available loans for Poland as a poster child and a dress window of post-communism, is coming to an end. Even massive Polish lobby in the US cannot anymore push for it much more, even if Zbig has an ear of Obama. The US itself is in a downward financial spiral and the issue of resources becomes a very acute problem. I don’t know what Polish Government may achieve with its recent program of resurrection of once decent Polish shipbuilding but, call it a hunch, Poland is not a competitor anymore in this field to Germany or Spain (I am talking about Europe), let alone in other viable industries. Creating hysteria helps to convince US to deploy its Armed Forces units, from ABM installations to infantry brigades and it means….drum roll…money, jobs, money. Poland’s real (I underscore–real) economic outlook is not rosy and much harder times are already here.

    2. Considering not an easy Russo-Polish history and defining characteristics of Polish “elites”, properly identified by number of people of Barnett’s or even Churchill’s scale, the cultural and ideological reasons are also playing here a massive role. You may not agree, but Poland remains non-actualized empire. She always wanted to be and sees, apart from inherent Russophobia (part of which is based on envy and jealousy) , a possibility for itself to run a pseudo-alliance, pseudo-empire within geographic confines of Eastern Europe. and NATO. This requires a leading position on some issues–Russian “threat” is such an issue. Basically it is about who will out-hate Russia and who will out-BS on Russian account. F.e. Polish positions on sanctions against Russia (sincere thanks for that–I mean it and am not being facetious–and, please, do all in your power to maintain them) is very emblematic.

    3. In the end, all this conflates into some really bizarre Polish position which now makes Moscow question sanity of Polish “elites’ and some (by far not all) of it population. So much so that Duda today was making some pseudo-peaceful statements that Russia is not really an enemy and she is really a neighbor. Well, apart from Germans who are watching this Polish “leadership” with disturbed amusement, Moscow sees 31 000 troops of the military block which is run by USA, whose military adventures since 1999 brought to the world chaos, millions of deaths and suffering on the grand scale and makes the only one sensible and reasonable conclusion–you deploy troops and systems of aggressive block, you become a target, with 100% probability of being destroyed. Cool? Cool! Russia is one of two nations of the world which can do it. So, reconstitution of the 1st Guards Tank Army, re-deployment of other 2 Brigades close to Russia’s own borders is absolutely normal reaction.

    4. Can Poland stoke hysteria even more or even provoke a serious clash between US and Russia? While not necessarily very high probability (in the end US and Russian Armed Forces professionals do communicate with each-other directly) it is, certainly, possible. I hope that today’s Duda’s statements are a result of not him at least trying to mitigate Poland’s “leadership” but a hint from powers that be–to sort of “soften” the rhetoric.

    So, now putting all lyrics away and Poles are definitely courageous people, nobody denies them this distinction, but Poland got itself into the big powers game as that proverbial Tabaqui from The Jungle Book and it already has a stamp of a provocateur–I doubt that Poland and Polish people want that distinction, especially if US and Russia will go at it, but I doubt it may even matter after that, certainly not for Poland, since it will not even have a chance to fight. The logic of big powers is a different game and a league, where purely Polish rationales do not hold.

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  227. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @szopen

    Have you ever considered…Switzerland?

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  228. Rurik says:
    @szopen

    You are aware that Russia was establishing embargoes on Polish products since two decades no matter of our politics?

    I’m not an expert on that part of the world, but it would seem to me counter-productive to alienate a neighbor like that just for the fun of it. From everything I can glimmer, Putin wants trade and friendship with all the nations of the world, because such a policy would advance the fortunes of Russia as well.

    Russia is one of the very few countries I see in the (putatively) Western world today, (like Hungary and Iceland) where they have a government that is run by nationalists with their nation’s best interest at heart, rather than by international bankers who’re hostile to the nations they’re sucking the blood out of. So the actions of Russia seem rational, unlike America who is bankrupting itself fighting wars for Israel. As long as Putin and Russia seem rational, it’s difficult for me to see why they would antagonize Poland just for the sake of doing it.

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  229. Rurik says:
    @szopen

    The only chance to keep our sovereignty is to ensure that attack on Poland could cause war with USA.

    do you realize how many countries the US has used as pathetic dupe in their myriad wars?

    It is the US that is the belligerent here. It is the US that is breaking all known international laws and bombing counties willy-nilly and creating international havoc and strife. When Russia is one day forced to respond to the vicious belligerence of the US, like they were already forced to in South Ossetia and most recently Syria, do you really want for Poland to be the next battleground between the Fiend in the ZioUSA vs. Russia?!

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  230. @szopen

    I absolutely wish well for the Polish people, but if you really think the US would ever treat Poland as anything but a cheap pawn, well, I guess the nicest thing I can say is to mention the old adage about a fool and his money.

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  231. L.K says:

    Continuing where I left off in post 221:

    Until the highly provocative Soviet actions in June of 1940, Germany did not have even rough drafts for military action against the USSR.

    To add insult to injury, as military historian H.Magenheimer writes, German command also became extremely suspicious of the possibility of a Soviet-British rapprochement behind their backs in the summer of 1940, given the negotiations in Moscow after the appointment of new British ambassador Sir Stafford Cripps, in June of 1940. The specter of this and other actions by Churchill to form a big alliance with the USSR and the USA, states H.Magenheimer, was also to have a big influence on German strategic planning.
    At the same time, detailed Soviet studies re Germany’s economic and armaments situation under the aforementioned circumstances led the Soviet leadership into believing that Germany was slipping into a condition of hopeless military inferiority.

    For the first time beginning in July 1940, initial steps in the form of contingency plans for military action against the Soviets were taken by the Germans. These were staff studies and not the Barbarossa directive. The definitive decision to go to war against the USSR was only made much later.
    In fact, after the end of the victorious summer campaign of 1940 against the West, Hitler ordered a large reduction of the German military and many units were demobilized. It’s important to note that many Russian historians’, such as M.Meltyukov, B.Sokolov, B.N.Petrov and others, research into the then( after 1991) partially opened Soviet archives, confirmed that the Soviet General Staff had been working, with Stalin’s approval, on plans for attack against Germany already from the fall of 1939. According to Mikhail Meltyukov, the general staff of the red army had begun a plan for war against Germany in October 1939. After revision, this plan was approved by the Soviet regime on 14 October 1940. Furthermore a mobilization plan was also developed; it called for the provision of 9 million men, 37.800 tanks & 22.000 aircraft.

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  232. Seraphim says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Don’t forget that the Poles have invented the “Testament of Peter the Great”, before being used by Napoleon.
    “In 1912 Polish historian Michel Sokolnicki (Michał Sokolnicki) found in the archives of French Ministry of Foreign Affairs a 1797 memorandum “Apercu sur la Russie” of his ancestor, general Michał Sokolnicki and wrote a journal article “Le Testament de Pierre le Grand: Origines d’un pretendu document historiqe”. General Sokolnicki claimed that he glimpsed a plan of Peter I to subjugate Europe in Russian archives and memorized major points. These points bear a remarkable similarity to those presented by Lesur, so it is quite possible that Lesur borrowed from Sokolnicky. Historian Sokolnicki also maintains that his ancestor did not invent The Will himself, but rather wrote down a long existing Polish tradition.”
    That surely indicates the existence of a much older conspiracy to ‘denounce’ Russian ‘expansionism’, in which the Ukrainians of Mazeppa had a heavy hand. Gregory Orlik, the son of a companion of Mazeppa, “a hater of Muscovy” and an advocate of Ukraine’s independence who fled Ukraine and lived after in France, bombarded constantly the Court of Louis XV with memoranda calling attention to the Russian “threat”, containing gloomy forebodings of Russian expansion, with an analysis and forecast of Russian foreign policy. In one of his memoranda he wrote: “I have no doubt that the tradition of Tsar Peter will bring about a decline of Turkey and Poland, and will result in Russian hegemony in Europe”. Both the memoranda of Orlik and the Sokolnicky memorandum formed the basis of Lesur’s forgery. The story of the ‘discovery’ of the Testament by the Chevalier D’Eon was pure fiction.
    The Testament is in use today as in the past!

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  233. L.K says:
    @szopen

    szopen:

    Sure, but the alternative is to accept the role of a de-facto satellite.

    Sorry, but ALL NATO members, Poland included, r “de-facto satellites” of ZUSA’s Empire.

    Having US soldiers on Polish soil & being a NATO member == no Polish sovereignty.

    ZUSA does not care about Poland. If they have to, they’ll use u guys & discard Poland like a used rag.

    Last time around, that idiotic guarantee by the British Empire and France( and ZUSA had been involved from behind the curtains too) did not turn out very well for Poland.

    Also, though Russia obviously is no angel, it seems to me you r painting too dark a picture, one of either ‘we are with Zusa or we become a Russian satellite’.

    Poland could and should search for a more neutral position while working to retain its sovereignty.

    For example, from you list:
    - Never search for other alternative sources of gas.

    Besides not liking it, what do u think Russia would do about it?

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  234. ABCD says:
    @5371

    Look man, do yourself a favour and take 101 Logic — will do you good.

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  235. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    French are very unique in the attitudes towards Russia since even today, let alone in the past, much of French security rested on Russia. Once the main European triangle of Russia-Germany-France is considered, things become very clear. In pure geopolitical terms the combination is extremely simple. Yet, understanding that did not prevent France throughout this period (starting from roughly Crimean War till today) be very often condescending towards Russia and Russians, despite the fact that twice in 20th century historic Russia played a key role both direct and indirect in defense and liberation of France. Yet, Tolstoy in his War & Peace describes the scene during Grande’ Armee’s crossing Neman of Polish Colonel saluting and reporting to Napoleon enthusiastically. Poles were second largest, after French themselves, contingent of Napoleon’s Army. By far second largest. We know how it all ended for French and Poles. Poland, her elites have a “stellar” record in manipulating European (and relatively lately US) elites into all kind of mindless moves. Enough to say that for anyone with a modicum of common sense it is clear that, as an example, Zbig Brzezinski, be it when he was NSA or, later as an “academic” (realistically the guy is as dumb as a stump–enough to read his faux “academic” BS) and older “statesman”, had his loyalties to Poland not to the US. Yet, it is US which lives today with consequences of this pathological Russophobe’s actions and policies he promoted. As per NATO expansion–massive tectonic ramifications of that traitorous movement we are all beginning to feel now and this is just the start–things may get much more “interesting”. Albeit, today’s statement of none other than notorious General Breedlove on necessity to talk to Russians and settle gives some, however fleeting, hope that global military realities are finally making their way into the minds of top political and military brass.

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  236. Seraphim says:

    Now, France absorbed a great number of Poles and Russians. So, “Entre les deux, mon cœur balance/Je ne sais pas laquelle aimer des deux./C’est à L(R?)ucie ma préférence,/Et à Zoé les cent coups de bâton.

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  237. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Seraphim

    Now, France absorbed a great number of Poles and Russians

    France may need all Poles and Russian to deal with what is shaping to be a multi-cultural downfall of France. Unlike Western Europeans, Slavs of Russian and Polish descent are very un-PC people and of real scrappy fighting variety, who actually may beat the shit out people who are very alien to France, if you know what I mean;-)

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  238. szopen says:
    @L.K

    “Last time around, that idiotic guarantee by the British Empire and France( and ZUSA had been involved from behind the curtains too) did not turn out very well for Poland.”

    Without that guarantees, it would be even worse. Remember – we would fight even without the guarantees.

    “Poland could and should search for a more neutral position while working to retain its sovereignty.”

    During 1920-1939 Polish oficial policy was “equal distances” meaning no alliances with USSR or Germany. We had non-agression pacts with both USSR and Germany, we refused offers of alliance from Germany. How did that end for us?

    “what do u think Russia would do about it?”
    No idea. I am quite sure that if we would have no allies, it would greatly increase Russia’s possibilities.

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  239. Peter231 says:

    Winston Churchill said things on other occasions too to make himself look good, when in fact he was the problem, or a big part of the problem. The “Czechoslovak state” was ripped from Austria, without a plebiscite, to weaken Germany and Austria, the same for all the other land grabbing the English and French oversaw. England may have done better if they had concerned themselves with their own empire and places such as India, whether talking about injustices committed there or how to keep it. Instead, their jealousy of Germany always led them to start wars with her.

    The Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact did not authorize Germany to take over Poland and it didn’t authorize the USSR to take over the Baltic States. Did the Monroe Doctrine authorize the US to take over South America? Germany tried right up to the last minute to come to an agreement with Poland to avoid war, while England did everything it could to start the war. Germany wanted the cities and land stolen from her back, as did the millions of Germans living on those lands. They wanted the abuse and atrocities to stop and they wanted to be part of Germany again and Hitler wanted to do this in a peaceful way, by holding a plebiscite in the contested areas. In the final days before the war started the Germans presented yet another plan to avoid war and when the wife of one of England’s ministers saw the plan, she commented to her husband “the German plan seems so fair. What more do you want”. He promptly called up Churchill and they both called up the top newspapers and told the papers to portray the German offer as bad as possible.

    Churchill did not oppose the guarantee to Poland, but that sentence there (if he actually wrote it) is an attempt to put himself in the clear. That guarantee helped start WW II. With it, the Poles had no reason to negotiate. England had as much business intervening in German-Polish affairs as Germany had in British-India affairs. But starting in 1936 wealthy Jews began paying Winston Churchill large sums of money to attack Germany, first in the media and then in war when he was wielded into power. This corrupt politician didn’t only destroy Europe, he bankrupted and destroyed his own empire. After throwing the British army into the English Channel, Hitler repeatedly offered Churchill a truce (as he did before the war started), even though it was Churchill that declared war on Germany. The British historian David Irving is the leading authority on Nazi Germany and WW II. His books are written strictly from primary sources like the archives and diaries. He exposed the Hitler Diaries as a fraud in the 1980′s and retrieved Goebbels Diaries from Soviet archives after they had laid there untouched for 45 years. This answered many questions when he published his biography of Goebbels.

    Buying Winston Churchill – The “Austrian” and “German” he mentions were also Jews

    Patrick Buchanan also says Churchill attacked Germany and bankrupted his own empire unnecessarily in “Churchill, Hitler and the Unnecessary War”

    How many of you know that Poland proposed to France three times in 1933 that they jointly attack Germany? Poland did attack Germany in the early 1920′s, grabbing land not awarded to it at Versailles. She attacked Russia and sought to take whatever she could, as in Czechoslovakia. She wasn’t the only one though. In 1923 Lithuania attacked and took 0ver the German city Memel, my mothers hometown, a German city since its founding about 700 years earlier. On top of this, France repeatedly marched troops into Germany. That is why Hitler was elected.

    The Polish-German treaty and Soviet-German non-aggression pact were both desirable, not so much to keep Germany in check, but the aggressive Poles and the mass murdering USSR under Jewish control. Under their leadership, they murdered millions of Soviet citizens, including millions of Ukrainians by starvation. They were leading communist revolutions in Hungary, Germany and elsewhere too, and had installed a communist government in Spain. Germany was determined not to allow them to bring their mass murder beyond the German border and into Europe. Contrary to what you’ve been told, Germany was very peaceful under Hitler, until the war started. There was very little violence in Germany in the 1930′s while millions of people were being murdered in the USSR.

    Putin; 80-85% of Soviet government were Jews

    This is a discussion of Gerd Schultze-Rhonhof book The War That Had Many Fathers w/ English Subtitles. He exposes many lies and shows how the British maneuvered Europe into war. He also discusses the Soviet-German pact and how the Germany wanted the Baltic states to remain independent, but was forced to acquiesce to Soviet control in order to get the Russians to sign. The corrupt FDR was also aware of the treaty thru one of his ministers in Moscow and he helped lead them into a war against Germany.

    Lying FDR – the biggest liar the Americans had. Here is his speech claiming Hitler was going to attack and take over South America when the British fed him a phony map that they had created.

    http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v06/v06p125_Weber.html

    FDR’s speech – made while every man the Germans had available was fighting in the Soviet Union

    Gradually the lies are coming out, but the mainstream media does its best to cover up the truth.

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  240. @szopen

    Different circumstances. In the 30′s Poland should have allied with Germany. Today they should probably ally with Russia but at least neutrality is a sensible option.

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  241. Peter231 says:

    Rhonhof’s speech:

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  242. szopen says:
    @Peter231

    You liar. Poland had not attacked Germany in 1920, that’s first. Uprisings by local population in Greater Poland, were Poles were majority and had been opressed by Germany (with state-sponsored colonisation, laws designed to reduce land ownership amongst Poles and so on) do not count, especially as Poland had not send any military units to Greater Poland (bar few officers after the uprising already lasted).

    Second, Germany’s proposals were unacceptable for any country. If Poland would give the same demands to Germany, you would scream about warmongering and pressing for war. POland was willing to negotiate and had its own proposals, but Hitlers demands were simply insane – they could be considered a reasonable only if Poland would be already defeated in a war without firing a single shot.

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  243. Rurik says:
    @szopen

    During 1920-1939 Polish oficial policy was “equal distances” meaning no alliances with USSR or Germany. We had non-agression pacts with both USSR and Germany, we refused offers of alliance from Germany. How did that end for us?

    what the Poles refused was a corridor so that Germany could protect the German citizens who were handed over to the tender mercies of hate-filled Poles at Versailles, and then persecuted and even murdered by Poles as a provocation to Hitler to do something about it. It was the war guarantees that gave the Polish colonels the arrogance to take on Hitler, much like it’s the NATO war guarantees that are giving them the arrogance today to take on Putin.

    Hitler was ‘rope-a-doped’ into their trap over the corridor. Putin refuses to be over Donbas. But leave it to Poland to find their inner hubris and be ground zero for the next world war.

    [how little things change!]

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  244. @Peter231

    Germany tried right up to the last minute to come to an agreement with Poland to avoid war.

    That must be the reason why the Germans staged false flag operation at Gliewitz. Very strange way to avoid war.

    Germany was very peaceful under Hitler, until the war started.

    The most peaceful element of German society was SA ( Sturmabteilung ) better known as the Brownshirts. They were later replaced by an even more peaceful SS. Poor Adolf. His peaceful intentions were always misunderstood. He tried to manifest his peaceful nature by first annexing Austria and later by taking over Czechoslovakia. Still nobody believed his peaceful intentions. So he attacked Poland and then Belgium, Denmark, Holland, France, Great Britain, Norway, Greece, Yugoslavia and finally as a last peaceful act he attacked USSR. Even that was not enough to prove his peaceful intention so he declared war on USA. He died before he could receive his Nobel Peace Prize.

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  245. L.K says:
    @szopen

    szopen: “Without that guarantees, it would be even worse. Remember – we would fight even without the guarantees.”

    Pure nonsense. That “guarantee” is what got Poland into trouble in the first place. Poland was WW 2 useful idiot. At the war’s end, Poland had become a Soviet satellite.

    szopen: “Second, Germany’s proposals were unacceptable for any country.”

    More nonsense.

    « The fact is that the only real offer of security which Poland received in 1938 and 1939 emanated from Hitler.
    He offered to guarantee the boundaries laid down in the Versailles Treaty against every other country.
    Even the Weimar Republic had not for a moment taken this into consideration.
    Whatever one may think of Hitler’s government or foreign policy, no doubt exists on this point; his proposals to Poland in 1938/39 were reasonable and just and the most moderate of all which he made during the six years of his efforts to revise the Versailles Treaty by peaceful means. »
    – Professor Harry Elmer Barnes, prominent American historian.

    « Of all the Germans, Believe it or not, Hitler is the most moderate as far as Danzig and the Corridor are concerned.» – Sir Neville Henderson,
    British Ambassador to Berlin, 16th August, 1939.

    A friend wrote a good article re the lead up to the war and here is the bit concerning Poland:

    On 26 January 1934, Germany and Poland signed a non-aggression Treaty, and on 24 October 1938, Ribbentrop had a lengthy talk with the Polish envoy Lipski, to see if outstanding issues could not be settled.
    His suggestion: Danzig* was to be returned to Germany and a rail/road link built connecting East Prussia to Germany[East Prussia had been severed from the rest of Germany after WWI].

    *(Danzig was about 97% German at the time. Versailles had robbed Germany of circa 1/8 of her territory and 1/10 of her people, see maps map of Europe 1914 and 1923.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/guides/zp3ncdm

    Scroll down and you will see the maps for Europe in 1914 and in 1923, after the mutilation of Germany.)

    Poland, in return, would get to keep all the German territories given to it at Versailles, with Germany to guarantee the border for 25 years.[ plus, Poland would be left in control of the economic and railway facilities in Danzig. At any rate the poles were building their own port, Gdynia, and could continue to use Danzig. There was no reason whatsoever for Poland to rule Danzig. ]

    Lipski promised to relay those proposals to the Polish foreign minister Jozef Beck. Those very reasonable proposals were eventually turned down by the Poles.[10] Negations continued but when the British gave the Poles that unconditional guarantee against Germany, the Poles – emboldened by the British guarantee – refused to negotiate any further. But even after Britain had given the Poles that guarantee, Hitler, along with other ministers, had worked out a 16 point program in order to try and settle issues peacefully. He had informed the British about this program and waited, right up to 31 August 1939, for a Polish emissary, no one showed up. The 16 points were broadcast on the radio at 21:00 hrs (9:00 o’clock) on 31 August, the Poles ridiculed them and called their people to arms[general mobilization], on 1 September 1939, the German army marched into Poland.[11]

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  246. Seraphim says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Well, of course, that’s what we hope for. They still retain a Christian outlook and spirit and they might revive it among the Leftoid PC Z(i)ombified French.

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  247. AP says:
    @L.K

    Whatever one may think of Hitler’s government or foreign policy, no doubt exists on this point; his proposals to Poland in 1938/39 were reasonable and just and the most moderate of all which he made during the six years of his efforts to revise the Versailles Treaty by peaceful means. »
    – Professor Harry Elmer Barnes,prominent American historian

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Elmer_Barnes

    “Harry Elmer Barnes (June 15, 1889 – August 25, 1968) was an American historian who, in his later years, was known for his historical revisionism and holocaust denial.”

    Barnes: “”Even if one were to accept the most extreme and exaggerated indictment of Hitler and the National Socialists for their activities after 1939 made by anybody fit to remain outside a mental hospital, it is most alarmingly easy to demonstrate that the atrocities of the Allies in the same period were more numerous as to victims and were carried out for the most part by methods more brutal and painful then that alleged extermination in gas ovens. (Emphasis in the original.)”

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  248. Ivan K. says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Ok, so Glantz is quite accepted among Western historians? Thank you about that. I have a few questions:

    Can you suggest “a good way to approach military history” for someone without a degree in history and with serious constraints on time, other than to:
    - listen to lectures of historians such as David Glantz (done)
    - check book reviews from a wide variety of sources (done)
    - browse through books (done)
    - read relatively few books selected on the basis of all of the above (done)
    ?

    Using Amazon reviews as a source of assessments of historians who are universally (globally, actually) accepted as the golden standard of history is, frankly, not a good way to approach military history.

    Does “accepted golden standard of history” relate to Amazon reviews or historians?

    In any of the possibilities, the phrase “golden standard” is surprising.
    History is rigorous research.
    The spread of acceptance of something is an inadequate way to judge quality of any research.

    I think I have to check Amazon reviews. Mainstream media are notoriously biased, and accepted history is notorious for being shaped by whoever is powerful in a given society. Any check on that is better than none. And Amazon reviews, which include reviews of reviews, are often good, while even the bad ones are can be useful.

    Some people also think that aliens from other galaxies live among us.

    :) We are far from omniscient.

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  249. Peter231 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Austria was the country Hitler was from and Austria wanted to join Germany. Austria is a German country. Czechoslovakia was a state created out of land stolen from Austria. England and France had as much business with that as Germany would have “liberating” India or Algeria from Great Britain or France. There were millions of Germans (Austrians) living on that stolen land and there were many Czechs that liked their Austrian Empire. There had never been a “Czechoslovakia” in history.

    In 1942 at a mass meeting in Prague, 200,000 Czechs pledge loyalty to their homeland and to the German Reich –

    Poland was attacked after Hitler made repeated attempts to come to a peaceful resolution, right up to the day of the attack.. Watch Rhonhof’s discussion of his book. Listen to the lies you’ve been told. The Poles refused to negotiate and told Germany they would keep everything. Their attitude towards the Germans was disgusting. England encouraged that behavior with a “guarantee” they could never guarantee.

    He attacked “France” and “Great Britain”? Those countries declared war on him in 1939 starting WW II. England sent its troops to France in preparation for an attack. Germany wasn’t going to wait for them to arrive in Berlin – stupid.

    Holland and Belgium allied with the French and British and prior to Germany’s attack on France in May 1940, Holland said nothing while for eight months, starting when Britain declared war on Germany, British bombers flew over Holland’s skies continuously on there way to bomb Germany. There would have been no attack by Germany on any country in western Europe if England and France had not started the war by declaring war on Germany.

    Churchill was planning on capturing Norway to cut Germany off from vital raw materials it needed. Hitler pre-emptively attacked and prevented this from happening. Italy attacked Greece (which Hitler was shocked to learn) and when Italy was losing that war Germany attacked to prevent the British from capturing it. But none of these countries that you list would ever had been attacked if England and France had not started WW II by starting the war with Germany.

    You didn’t mention Iceland or Iran. In 1940 England and the US attacked Iceland and took it over. In 1940 England and the USSR attacked Iran and took it over. In 1940 the USSR attacked Finland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia and Romania. It’s obvious you either know nothing or have a lopsided view of history in which “your” side can do anything and the other side is at fault for everything.

    SA, SS, brownshirts. Did you live there stupid? Until the war began Germany had peace, while in the USSR at that time millions of Ukrainians were being deliberately starved to death, nuns were being raped, priests murdered and churches burned down. This was done under a heavily Jewish government. The British and Americans allied themselves to these mass murderers.

    I would have given the Nobel Peace Prize to Rudolf Hess for his daring flight to England in 1941 in an attempt to stop the war. The Jewish writer Gertrude Stein said Hitler should receive the Nobel Peace Prize. The mass murderer Churchill, definitely should not have received it.

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  250. Seraphim says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I couldn’t help remembering that the famous “Chant des partisans” of the Résistance française, (Ami entend-tu/Le vol noir du corbeau/Sur nos plaines?), was composed by the French-Russian singer, guitarist and poet Ana Marly (Ana Yurievna Smirnova-Marly, nee Betulinskaya, from a family connected to Stolypin, Lermontov, Berdyaev), first in Russian (От леса до леса/Дорога идет/Вдоль обрыва, ), while in London with the Forces françaises libres of General de Gaulle. The French loved it so much that they adapted it to French and it became the hymn of the Résistance and the sign of reconnaissance in the Maquis. Quite symbolic, from the ‘forest’ to the ‘Maquis’. I love this part: Никто, никакая сила/Нас не покорит,/Не отгонит!

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  251. szopen says:
    @Rurik

    No. What Poles refused was, amongst other, making a referendum in POmorze, in which some Polish citizens would not be allowed to vote, while some German colonists and adminsitration workers who were not living in Pomorze would be allowed to vote. Repeating Hitler’s propaganda about murdering Germans (while at the same time convieniently forgetting about Hitler’s policy towards Polish minority in Germany) is typical for Nazi apologetics.

    And we would fight even without guarantees. Germany’s proposals were simply unacceptable.

    Imagine today Mexico woudl demand that US would start referendum in Texas and California over the future of those territories, with further demands that in time of referendum US adminsitration would leave that territory and all US citizens who arrive there in last 20 years would not be allowed to vote. Would that be reasonable demand?

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  252. szopen says:
    @L.K

    Wrong.

    (1) Hitler was saying that Germany has absolutely no territorial demands for Poland and no interest in Danzig. Two years later, he changed his mind and said he wants Danzig and in exchange he would “guarantee” POlish borders. It is reasonable to think that a year later he would chnage his mind again, especially since this is already after Czechoslovakia, when he promised a lot and then broke every promise he made.

    You of course forget this context. Hitler’s proposals in 1939 has to be taken in context of his previous actions, were he always was promising something, and then breaking his promises.
    This is a crucial demand. In other context maybe __some__ of Hitler’s demands would be reasonable. But in the light of his past actions, no way.

    (2) Hitler demanded different things. He demanded also that referendum would be made in Pomorze. For context, German government was settling state-funded colonists in Pomorze for years. Those colonists would be allowed to vote. Also German administration workers (who left Pomorze in 1920s) would be allowed to vote. Polish adminsitration, however, would be required to leave and Poles who were born or who arrived in Pomorze after 1920 would NOT be allowed to vote. A reasonable demand my arse.

    (3) Poland was ready for negotiations and had it’s own counterproposals of making transfer from Germany to East Prussia as smooth as possible. Those were ignored by Germany. When Lipski arrived to Ribbentrop in 31.08.1939, he was simply read demands, asked whether he has full powers to sign treaties, and then dismissed.

    (4) Germany’s invasion plans were ready in late 08.1939, and only because of British guarantees orders were withdrawn. At least one unit had not received orders and attacked Poland (26.08.1939). Poland mobilisation was on August the 30rd, and under pressure from France this mobilisation was delayed. At that time German forces were already fully mobilised. As an effect, many Polish units were not mobilised or were on the move towards their positions.

    (5) If Poland was willing to wage war, why in 1939? Why no in the time, where Poland on its own could take on Germany? Until at least 1935, some say even until 1936 Poland had military superiority over Germany. I know that in 1933 Pilsudski proposed supposedly an attack on Germany to our dear French allies, but
    (5a) There is no trace of any documents of this proposal and many historian doubt it was actually proposed; some say it is a myth created by Pilsudski lovers to show how awesome powers of precognition he had
    (5b) the goals would be to deter militarisation of Germany, not to take any territory.
    (5c) Even those who believe that Pilsudski really proposed the action, all think that this was a bluff, that Pilsudski cynically proposed that believing French would refuse, and that was only to revitalise Polish-French alliance.

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  253. @Peter231

    Austria was the country Hitler was from and Austria wanted to join Germany.

    Hitler sent an ultimatum to Schuschnigg on 11 March, 1938, demanding that he hand over all power to the Austrian Nazis or face an invasion. The ultimatum was set to expire at noon, but was extended by two hours. Without waiting for an answer, Hitler had already signed the order to send troops into Austria at one o’clock. Your claim is an obvious nonsense.

    Czechoslovakia was a state created out of land stolen from Austria.

    I am not going to get into a lengthy discourse on history because you are clearly not able to comprehend complicated subjects, but I will tell you this. Czechoslovakia was inhabited by Czechs, Moravians and Slovaks. People distinct from Austrians. Nothing was stolen from Austria. The country was simply returned to its rightful owners.

    Poland was attacked after Hitler made repeated attempts to come to a peaceful resolution, right up to the day of the attack..

    Repeating nonsense does not turn it into a fact. Read about the incident at Gliewitz.

    He attacked “France” and “Great Britain”? Those countries declared war on him in 1939 starting WW II.

    More nonsense. WW2 was started by Hitler. After his unprovoked attack on Poland both Great Britain and France were treaty bound to declare war and your beloved, peaceful Adolf surely new that.

    SA, SS, brownshirts. Did you live there stupid?

    No I did not but quite a few relatives of my grandmother did. See, I have a first hand knowledge of what was going on in Nazi Germany. How about you.

    I would have given the Nobel Peace Prize to Rudolf Hess for his daring flight to England in 1941 in an attempt to stop the war.

    As far as I know the purpose of his mysterious flight to Great Britain has never been revealed. What is available are just pure speculations. In any case the victorious powers did not share your admiration of Rudolf Hess and instead of Nobel Peace Price gave him a life sentence.

    The Jewish writer Gertrude Stein said Hitler should receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

    This last comment reveals the depth of your delusion or the height of your perfidy. Make your pick. The simple fact that Hitler was secretly rearming in violation of the Versailles Treaty debunks all your claims about his peaceful nature.

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  254. @Regnum Nostrum

    The Gleiwitz incident may be aprocryphal:

    http://carolynyeager.net/gleiwitz-“false-flag”-incident-pure-fiction

    BTW, the fact that the Nazis may have been cynical in some of their actions does not absolve the Poles and British of blame in fomenting the war.

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  255. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Oh yes, Carolyn Yeager, the trustworthy Nazi apologist.

    From April through August 2007, Yeager was the Texas state leader of neo-Nazi American National Socialist Workers Party (ANSWP), a group that descended from the National Socialist Movement, the largest neo-Nazi group in the country.

    By leaving a link like that your ridiculous claim, about Gliewitz incident being apocryphal, lost any credibility. Not that it ever had any because the false flag organized by Himmler was well documented in captured Nazi documents.

    Operation Himmler (less often known as Operation Konserve or Operation Canned Goods) was a 1939 false flag project planned by Nazi Germany to create the appearance of Polish aggression against Germany, which was subsequently used by Nazi propaganda to justify the invasion of Poland. Operation Himmler was arguably the first act of the Second World War in Europe.

    According to the same Carolyn the concentration camp Auschwitz was a spa.

    Yes, Auschwitz had an art museum, a library, regular concerts and sporting events, a “theater for music and drama,” a swimming pool (sometimes used for water polo) and a brothel for lonely inmates — all round, as Yeager writes, “a flourishing cultural life.”

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  256. Rurik says:
    @szopen

    Imagine today Mexico woudl demand that US would start referendum in Texas and California over the future of those territories, with further demands that in time of referendum US adminsitration would leave that territory and all US citizens who arrive there in last 20 years would not be allowed to vote. Would that be reasonable demand?

    isn’t that what was done in Kosovo? By force? Handing over territory to others who had simply managed to demographically swamp the legal owners of the land?

    all this brouhaha over who did what first vis-a-vis WWII is a nice distraction, but my point is somewhat more immediate.

    This isn’t 1939, it’s 2016, and the Fiend is definitely not in Berlin, but Washington, DC. It is the US and NATO who are running around the globe like a rabid, power-crazed psycho, on behalf other power-crazed psychos in Tel Aviv. Duh

    They want TOTAL domination of the Middle East, (just like they have over the governments and media of the West [thank you WWII]). And as long as Vlad Putin is preventing that from happening…

    http://www.pravdareport.com/world/asia/09-06-2016/134675-russia_israel-0/

    they’re going to use hook and crook to get their way, always, unrelentingly, until they dominate every inch of this planet, or they’re stopped.

    So what Poland is doing by playing ZUSA’s chump, is setting themselves up to be ground zero for the next major global conflict.

    It’s stupid for them to do so. Putin has been acting like the only adult in the room since he’s come to power. His are the actions of a statesman who is trying to help Russia and the Russian people to thrive and prosper. Period. He has no ambitions towards any one else’s land, because if he did, he could have taken it by now, easily. Like Eastern Ukraine or Northern Georgia and other places from which John McCain has been poking him with his little stick.

    For the Baltic States and Poland and Ukraine to align themselves with the Fiend, is so monumentally fucking stupid that from here, over in the US of Zio-A, it looks like you’ve become so enamored of Kim Kardashian’s ass, that you’ve gone suicidaly insane.

    The Fiend will loot you dry and use you as cannon fodder, while laughing at your folly and misery, just like it did when it foisted WWII on your arses. And put Poland under its commie rule after having cut off its head at places like Katyn. Just so we’re clear, it wasn’t Russian nationals who were calling the shots at Katyn szopen, as if you didn’t know. It was minions of the International Bankster who had funded the entire Bolshevik madness, and were genociding the best of the Polish goyim just as it is written in their hate book.

    Please don’t be as stupid and easily duped as you were in the last century, where Poland is just now starting to recover from the nightmare.

    The West is under the thrall of the Fiend, and Putin is acting like a statesman and rational actor. That should guild Poland’s decisions vis-à-vis this conflict.

    IMHO

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  257. Svigor says:

    Where do Russians and Russophiles get this delusion that they could win vs. NATO? NATO would annihilate the Russians.

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  258. Svigor says:

    “After communism fell, how many Soviet war criminals and genocidaires were hunted down, a la the Nazis, and put on trial?”

    The lady doth protest too much. The recent count of the victims of the Middle Eastern wars has reached some 3 million (70 years after Nuremberg, btw). There are also some 10 million desperate refugees from the Middle East. Why was it so important to crush Iraq, Libya, Syria? These names should ring certain plan [Yinon] devised for certain small state, the one that munches freely on the US resources. Doubtless, there were “Soviet war criminals and genocidaires” in the Soviet Union, against other Soviets (i.e., internal affair). Now please tell us, how many “war criminals and genocidaires” of the US/EU extraction have been hunted down for their crimes against humanity in foreign countries during the last 15 years? Here are some names: Cheney, Blair, Bush, Rice, Clinton, Yoo, Tenet, Rumsfeld, Feith …..

    I hate the scum you mention. Though I should point out the false equivalence between killing other peoples in war, and killing one’s own for purely totalitarian purposes. It makes a world of difference.

    Now, back to my question:

    After communism fell, how many Soviet war criminals and genocidaires were hunted down, a la the Nazis, and put on trial?

    Immigrant from former USSR says:
    June 6, 2016 at 3:05 pm GMT • 300 Words

    Thanks for the explication.

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  259. Rurik says:
    @Svigor

    NATO would annihilate the Russians.

    weeeee

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  260. Svigor says:

    it wasn’t “Russians”, it was Soviets, and they were funded (and led) by NY Jewish bankers.

    It occurs that the distinction between Soviet and Russian is less relevant than the distinction between Nazi and German, since the commies ruled Russia et. al for 75 years or so (lol!), far longer than the Nazis ruled Germany. So, if the Russian position is to highlight the former, they should be even more adamant in highlighting the latter.

    Funny thing is, I used to be much more sympathetic toward Russophiles than I used to be. The Russophiles cured me of that.

    I’m still sympathetic toward Russia, but Russophiles can take a long walk off a short pier. Bunch of assholes.

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  261. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Ivan K.

    History is rigorous research.

    Very true and here is your answer to the checklist (a correct one) you presented. One clarification, though. Military history requires a very serious knowledge, not just a set of facts, however exhausting it may be. Here I need to give a distinction between information and knowledge, since both are not the same and knowledge is an information fit into the rigorous framework of reliable causality. That requires way more than just listening, which is good, to lectures or reading books, which are all very important. But all this is from realm of the pop-history, that is precisely an entrance into the range of interpretations. But unlike pop-history, which is a subject to, indeed, “free” interpretations which range from solid academic works to alt-history conspiracy delirium. All of that is “distilled” for a general public. Now, let me give you an example how military professional study history. Just one, among vast numbers of examples. It may give some impression.

    http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a225484.pdf

    Now, serious study starts with understanding of the nature of A war–as a phenomenon and continues onto:

    1. Understanding doctrinal development from the point of view of operational art. That is: how forces are shaped and interact within the operational objectives (mind you–no mentioning of “strategy”):
    a) Force structure
    b) Command and Control issues within the structure;
    c) Combat doctrine, relation to dynamics of battle (number of models are used, from simplified Osipov-Lanchester to augmented Salvo Model, statistical and probabilistic analysis), which brings us to:
    2. How General Staffs operate;
    3. How decisions on action (or inaction) are made;
    4.How fundamental principles are applied at operational and tactical levels;
    5……

    I can continue this list for a very long time, but, in the end, it will require a serious professional level of understanding of these issues and those are not just linear comparisons of tables of some numbers. War is not linear and never was. And…drum roll….a lot of math is involved, that is why military academies provide a rigorous training in higher math, calculus through differential equations, math analysis, statistics etc. These are basic prerequisites for making correct assessments and passing the judgements on the issue. All that, in most cases, is beyond comprehension of general public which is treated as I already stated mostly by distilled treatises. There are number of superb English-language sources on Operational Research which do open the door into the real study of the military history. Ask yourself a question why, while differing in some details, Russian and American military people are generally within the same vicinity when passing judgements on world wars or major operations?

    So, what are you to do if you want to get yourself to this level? Everything which you listed in your check list–continue to do this absolutely. Start basic study in Operational Research and combat models–this approach is universally accepted as a very good tool for namely studying (military) history. I write a little bit on that and try to make it as easy as possible. You can do it, as most of dedicated people can, and, believe me–military history, major wars, operations will suddenly take a very new appearance to you, which will be very close to reality. Now, why Glantz and House (among many), especially Glantz–a senior US Army officer with combat experience in Vietnam. Here are his academic and analytical credentials:

    After teaching history at the United States Military Academy from 1969 through 1973, he completed the army’s Soviet foreign area specialist program and became chief of Estimates in US Army Europe’s Office of the Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence (USAREUR ODCSI) from 1977 to 1979. Upon his return to the United States in 1979, he became chief of research at the Army’s newly formed Combat Studies Institute (CSI) at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas, from 1979 to 1983 and then Director of Soviet Army Operations at the Center for Land Warfare, United States Army War College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania, from 1983 to 1986. While at the College, Glantz was instrumental in conducting the annual “Art of War” symposia which produced the best analysis of the conduct of operations on the Eastern Front during the Second World War in English to date. The symposia included attendance of a number of former German participants in the operations, and resulted in publication of the seminal transcripts of proceedings. Returning to Fort Leavenworth in 1986, he helped found and later directed the Foreign Military Studies Office (FMSO), originally the Soviet Military Studies Office, where he remained until his retirement in 1993 with the rank of Colonel.

    Glantz was a Mark W. Clark visiting professor of History at The Citadel, The Military College of South Carolina.[1]

    Impressive, ah? That is what I call an authority on the subject with all bells and whistles. If you need help, you may find me very easily and I will be happy to answer any question to the best of my fairly limited ability. But as you said yourself–do the rigorous research. I hope I, at least partially, answered your question.

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  262. @Svigor

    Svigor:

    I’m still sympathetic toward Russia,

    Thank you indeed. I am sympathetic toward Russian people,
    Russian language, Russian poetry especially.
    I am grateful to my new home country: USA.
    Present day governments of both, Russia and USA, is a separate question.
    My best to you.

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  263. @Regnum Nostrum

    So you have nothing substantive to say?

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  264. Peter231 says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    You’re ignorant and I’m not going to repeat everything I already told you. Watch the video’s I referenced and learn something. They are historians that know what they’re talking about. I know the history there and you don’t know squat. Both my parents were German, as were all my other relatives from that time period and earlier. They witnessed life and the war first hand and I talked with them just about every day, about life in Germany and the war. I also had two close uncles from the part of Austria that became “Czechoslovakia”.

    The purpose of Rudolf Hess’s flight was to secure the peace that Hitler constantly sought with the war monger Churchill. It was only mysterious so the English could lie, tell people Hitler wanted war, while he was constantly asking for peace. Watch the David Irving speech above stupid. He lays it all out for you.

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  265. @Peter231

    Ach so, beide deine Eltern waren deutsche. Vielleicht konnen wir dann Deutsch sprechen, nicht war?

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  266. L.K says:
    @Svigor

    You are the deluded one.

    Even in the case of a conventional war in Russia’s near abroad, the Russian military would tear NATO – which is ZUSA, in fact – a new as*hole.

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  267. L.K says:
    @Svigor

    “After communism fell, how many Soviet war criminals and genocidaires were hunted down, a la the Nazis, and put on trial?”

    That is indeed true, NONE were.

    But why? Bc they were on the allies side, that is your country’s side(ZUSA).

    Given that the soviets were the victors, none were hunted down.

    BTW, how many of the countless US war criminals, since and including WWII have been put on trial?

    Same as with the reds, z-e-r-o.

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  268. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    Oh yeah, that completely artificial entity, “Czechoslovakia”….

    Though one would not know from its name, the second largest ethnic group were the Germans, mostly living in the lands adjacent to Germany and Austria.

    It was merely a contruct by the victors to encircle Germany. It had never b4 existed in History.

    So artificial it was, it no longer exists.

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  269. @Svigor

    No doubt Svigor they would totally annihilate all comers in any and all future conflicts in much the same way as they annihilated the Vietnamese, the Afghans and the Iraqis, right?

    Or, Americans could wrest control of their own nation from the traitors who have it now and start to rebuild it into a nation that Americans can be proud of. A nation that educates the young, provides healthcare for the old and the sick and invests in development and infrastructure that improves the lives of it’s own people.

    Try to imagine a US where the arms and body bag industries go into recession while other industries thrive resulting in good jobs for Americans. That would be worth fighting for.

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  270. 5371 says:
    @szopen

    The British government itself agreed that German demands were reasonable and that the crisis should be resolved basically in accordance with them. But it could find no way to make the Poles start negotiating – hence Lipski was not a plenipotentiary – and no political way to abandon its own guarantee.

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  271. Seraphim says:

    It requires a lot of ingenuity to try denying the expansionist aims of Nazi Germany when they were exposed in no uncertain terms in Hitler’s Mein Kampf. Very few people actually read it (it was even dangerous at times). Now it is readily available on the net.

    [MORE]

    “State frontiers are made by men and changed by men. The fact that a nation successfully gains an immense territory does not establish a holy right to keep it for eternity. Gaining this territory only proves the might of the conquerors and the weakness of those who tolerate them. This strength alone establishes the right to keep the territory. The German people are crowded on an impossibly small territory today and facing a pitiful future, however, this situation has not been decreed by Fate, and to revolt against it is not an insult to Fate. A higher power has not granted more territory to some other nation instead of Germany, just as no higher power is offended by such an unjust distribution of territory. Our ancestors did not receive the land we live on as a present from Heaven, but they had to risk their lives and fight for it. In the future, we will not obtain the land and the life it offers for our nation through any act of Heavenly generosity. We will only obtain the land we need through the might of the victorious sword….
    The right to possess territory and soil can turn into a duty if we see a great nation which suddenly appears doomed if it does not acquire more territory. This is especially true when we are not talking about just any little negro tribe, but about the Germanic mother of all life and the cultural image of the world. Germany will either be a world power or cease to
    exist. In order to become a world power, she needs the vastness that will give her the importance needed today and provide life to her citizens.
    So, we National-Socialists must scratch out the foreign policy practices of the prewar period.
    We will begin our work where it was left off six hundred years ago. We will stop the eternal Germanic migration to the south and west of Europe we have seen in the past and look toward the land in the east. We will finally end the colonial and trade policy of pre-war times and move forward into the land policy of the future.
    However, when we say territory and soil today in Europe, we can only think about Russia and the border-states under her control.
    Here, Fate seems to have given us a clue. By surrendering Russia to Bolshevism, it deprived
    the Russian people of that intelligent group responsible for creating the state and which
    guaranteed their existence as a state up to that time. The Russian State did not result from
    the political abilities of the Slavic race in Russia, but its creation was a wonderful example of
    the state-forming ability possessed by the Germanic element that still exists within an
    inferior race…
    The gigantic empire in the east is ripe for collapse. The end of Jewish domination in Russia will also be the end of the Russian state…
    We have been selected by Fate to witness this catastrophe and it will be the strongest
    confirmation that the national race theory is true and correct. The mission of the National-Socialist movement is to give our people the political insight needed so they do not see their future aim in the romantic image of a new campaign by Alexander the Great, but they see their future working busily at the German plow for which the sword will provide the soil…
    They claim that Bismarck, during his time, had always stressed the importance of maintaining a good relationship with Russia…. All right, then, honorable sirs, permit me to raise the objection that the Russia of today is also no longer the Russia of those days. Bismarck never intended to create a political course that would become a permanent strategy. He was the master of the moment and would not want to tie himself down like that. The question should not be, “What did Bismarck do in his days? ”but we should ask, “What would he do today? ”This question is much easier to answer. His political wisdom would never have permitted him to unite with any state that is doomed to destruction.”

    We can multiply the quotations. But this was plainly the old Drang nach Osten policy of the Wilhelmine Reich.

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  272. @L.K

    Poor poor Jews; the persecution of Jews just never seems to end. It’s just one pity-party after another, for centuries.

    While Ron Lauder explained to Ted Cruz & a US Senate committee that Jews are still being victimized by WWII and want their grandparents’ art work recovered, even if it has to be taken from collections in prestigious galleries or private homes,

    http://www.c-span.org/video/?410737-1/actress-helen-mirren-testifies-recovery-art-confiscated-holocaust

    the Never Again Klub © of Tel Aviv (NAKTA) dispatched its teams to level the home of the family of a 15-year old Palestinian in the West Bank

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/israel-razes-home-palestinian-teen-accused-murder-army-091436363.html

    Because Israel is a model democracy, and leveling homes is how a Never Again Klub © (NAKTA) democracy practices rule of law.

    Note to Ted Cruz: Will the US Senate hold hearings to accomplish the return to Palestinians of the libraries, homes, farms, businesses, and lives that Israelis have systematically stolen from Muslim and Christian Arabs over the past 90 years? ‘Israel has stolen 80,000 Palestinian books and manuscripts since 1948,’ head of Arab League claims

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  273. @L.K

    Name of countries change all the time, people remain. The Czechs have been living in the area today known as the Czech republic since 9oo AD. Nothing artificial about that. Those border regions were part of the kingdom of Bohemia long before any Germans moved in. Germans started to migrate to these regions around 1300 AD. The migration accelerated after the Battle of White Mountain after which all Czech lands were declared hereditary property of the Habsburg family. After the defeat of Austria-Hungary in WW1 the lands were returned to its rightful owners, including the Germans living there. You would not call a country after the second largest ethnic group, would you. If you did, many countries in the world would have to change their name. Austrians by the way are not Germans even though they speak the same language. Czechoslovakia has split in two countries but Czechs and Slovaks still exist. The only thing which does not exist in the Czech republic any more are the disloyal, treacherous, conceited and not very bright Germans.

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  274. @5371

    The British government itself agreed that German demands were reasonable.

    Is this the same British government which sold out Czechoslovakia in Munich because of very “reasonable” demands from Hitler. Peace for our time, said Mr. Chamberlain after the sellout. The statement has proven to be rather premature. Hitler wanted war and all those territorial demands were just a smokescreen. Is anybody really naïve enough to think that Hitler would be satisfied by Polish concessions. Wasn’t the occupation of the rest of Czechoslovakia after getting what he wanted a clear sign of his intentions?

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  275. HdC says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    “Austrians by the way are not Germans…”

    You do, of course, know the original meaning of that country’s name Oestereich, right? HdC

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  276. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    The Second Reich had no such policy.

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  277. L.K says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Beefcake the Mighty to Regnum

    “So you have nothing substantive to say?”

    Nothing beyond tired old lies and propaganda.

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  278. L.K says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    What an assclown you are, Regnum;

    When someone has to resort to this level of idiotic, false statements, such as:

    “Austrians by the way are not Germans”

    It is like a white flag of surrender at the intellectual level. You r ridiculous.

    From wikipedia re Austrians:

    Historically, Austrians were considered to be Germans and viewed themselves as such.

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  279. L.K says:
    @L.K

    I should add from my post 280. that the Austrians had wanted to join Germany after WWI and the dissolution of the Austro-Hungarian Empire, but were prevented from doing so by the victors.

    The victors wanted a smaller Germany, not a larger, stronger one. That is why they gave German land and people to artificial or semi-artificial states, instead of allowing them to join Germany, as self-determination would have it.

    Later, nearly 100% of the Austrian people wanted to join Hitler’s Germany.

    To talk about the annexation of Austria is even more BS than talk of a Russian annexation of Crimea.

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  280. @L.K

    Since you love Wikipedia so much you should have quoted the remainder of that paragraph.

    After the Austro-Prussian war of 1866, Austria was effectively expelled from the Confederation by Prussia. Thus, when the German Empire was founded in 1871, Austria was not a part of it. The Third Reich annexed Austria (Anschluss) in 1938, but since the events of World War II, Austrians have developed their own distinct national identity and mostly do not consider themselves to be Germans. However, Austrians are better described as a nationality, rather than an ethnic group.

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  281. Seraphim says:
    @5371

    It is hard to dismiss the conclusions drawn by Fritz Fischer (Fischer, Fritz. ‘Germany’s Aims in the First World War’, 1967), after his discovery of the “Septemberprogramm”, the plan for the territorial expansion of Imperial Germany, prepared for Chancellor Theobald von Bethmann-Hollweg, at the beginning of World War I (1914–18), proposing extensive territorial conquests in Belgium and France, in western Europe, and seizing much of the Russian Empire, in eastern Europe. The Peaces of Brest-Litovsk and Bucharest were the culmination of the program, albeit short-lived.
    Already the German Imperial War Council of 8 December 1912 had discussed an attack on Russia before the completion of the new Russian armaments program (programmed for 1916).
    The trend toward war was set by the collapse of the League of the Three Emperors, in 1887. Bismark tried desperately to keep the good relations with Russia but after his dismissal, his policies were sheltered. The erratic temper of Emperor Wilhelm II and his leaning towards England against Russia (in the Balkans and Turkey) led to the failure to renew the Reinsurance Treaty with Russia, but he did renew the Triple Alliance.

    A completely neglected aspect was the proposal by the Zionist leaders (Max Bodenheimer) to establish a buffer state between Germany and Russia, created from territory to be taken from Imperial Russia (the former Jewish Pale of Settlement of Russia), which would be a de facto protectorate of the German Empire in Mitteleuropa. It would be a federation of Poles, Ukrainians, Belarusians, Lithuanians, Latvians and Estonians but “the Germans, and Jews would hold the power”. According to this plan, the new state should be a monarchy ruled by the Hohenzollern dynasty. Bodenheimer submitted a Memorandum with the proposal to the German Foreign Office in 1914, where it and the Committee received the support of Erich Ludendorff and then Paul von Hindenburg. Subsequently, he created ‘The German Committee for the Freeing of Russian Jews’ (German, ‘Deutsches Komitee zur Befreiung der russischen Juden’) in August 1914 to lobby for the socio-political liberation of Jewish people living in the Russian Empire and ensure their protection from pogroms. In November 1914 it was renamed the Committee for the East. “The Committee was initially supported by the German Empire but as no Jewish insurrection arose against the Russians the Germans soon lost interest” (I love that involuntary admission that the Jews were meant to fight. If they didn’t it was because the Russians took strong measures to prevent it (“Under Russian rule, the Jews were suspected of collaboration with the enemy, and 600,000 of them were banished from the front by the czarist army, a traumatic experience and aneconomic catastrophe that was still felt long after the war”).
    Also, one would not forget the full support of the Social-Democrats for war against Russia. They were fighting Tsarist autocracy! The later support for Lenin-Trotsky by the Germans had antecedents.

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  282. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    … because it was fine when the electorate were educated and principled men and women with a common goal of mutual prosperity and mutual respect.

    This will be my final comment on Unz. I enjoyed debating with several of the commenters who frequent this site… and I wish them nothing but the best.

    Regards,

    geokat62

    A test to determine how well informed US citizens are about ME politics (I suspect the overwhelming majority would struggle to achieve a passing grade):

    1. Which couple is considered to have a “special relationship”?

    a) Mickey and Minnie Mouse
    b) Kim Kardashian and Kanye West
    c) Batman and Robin
    d) Israel and the US

    2. Who pushed hard to get the US to invade Iraq?

    a) The Russians
    b) The Israelis
    c) The Chinese
    d) The Italians

    3. What does AIPAC stand for?

    a) American Israel Public Affairs Committee
    b) Americans Into Power and Corruption
    c) American Indians for Peace and Cooperation
    d) African Irish Partnership and Collaboration

    4. Who owns the NY Times?

    a) Carlos Slim
    b) Howard Hughes
    c) Donald Trump
    d) Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr.

    5. What is the number of UN resolutions the US has vetoed on Israel’s behalf?

    a) 1
    b) 7
    c) 39
    d) 53

    6. What is the number of Muslim countries the US has bombed or occupied since 1980?

    a) 3
    b) 14
    c) 6
    d) 21

    7. What is the amount of treasure the US has paid as tribute to Israel since 1949?

    a) $120 B
    b) $5 B
    c) $18 B
    d) $63 B

    8. Who is Victoria Nuland married to?

    a) Barack Obama
    b) Jack the Ripper
    c) Barbara Streisand
    d) Robert Kagan

    9. Who are the co-founders of PNAC?

    a) Barnum and Bailey
    b) Abbott and Costello
    c) Kristol and Kagan
    d) Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

    10. How do Israelis commonly refer to the US Congress?

    a) Knesset West
    b) The Legislative Branch
    c) The Chamber of Solons
    d) The Hill

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  283. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    But somehow discussions among allied leaders of the dismemberment of Germany in the early months of the war don’t mean anything!
    Fischer is an unscrupulous propagandist and you trust him at your peril.

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  284. Seraphim says:
    @5371

    Please enlighten me. What discussions?

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  285. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    Nicholas II and Maurice Paléologue were active participants, as I recall. I am not within reach of a good library now but will supply chapter and verse in August if you are still interested.

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  286. Marcus says:
    @bunga

    So? No excuse for Turkey to invade a sovereign nation, set up a puppet republic and ethnically cleanse Greeks there while sending colonists to replace them

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  287. Avery says:
    @bunga

    { ignoring the opinions of the Muslim citizen of Cyprus }

    The so-called Muslim “citizens” are illegal squatters, descendants of nomad Turkic tribes from Uyguristan: that’s East and Central Asia for you geographically challenged Turcophiles.
    That is Turks’ homeland.

    Turks ethnically cleansed part of the indigenous population of Cyprus, the Greeks, and took their land centuries ago. The Muslim “citizens” are illegal occupants.

    If some vagrants broke into your house, killed off part of your family, and just took a couple of the rooms for themselves and stayed – you’d “kudos” them too, Yes?

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  288. Seraphim says:
    @5371

    By all means. But why wait until August when the book you seem to refer to is readily available on the Net:
    “AN AMBASSADOR’S MEMOIRS, By Maurice Paléologue
    (Last French Ambassador to the Russian Court)
    TRANSLATED BY F. A. HOLT, O.B.E.,
    NEW YORK: GEORGE H. DORAN COMPANY, 1925

    The Memoirs have been recycled in recent attempts to substantiate the these that ‘Russia did it’ (i.e. that Russia was the main culprit). Anyhow, what is adduced as proof of Russia’s intentions are the plans of dismembering Turkey in case that she would renounce her neutrality (which Turkey did not do).

    To give just a sample of this disscussions:

    [MORE]

    “After a few commonplaces, the Tsar told me of his pleasure at receiving the President of the Republic.
    “We shall have weighty matters to discuss,” he said.
    “I’m sure we shall agree on all points . . . But there’s one question which is very much in my mind—our understanding with England. We must get her to come into our alliance. It would be such a guarantee of peace!”
    “Yes, Sire, the Triple Entente cannot be too strong if it is to keep the peace.”
    “I’ve been told that you yourself are uneasy about Germany’s intentions.”
    “Uneasy? Yes, Sire, I am uneasy although at the moment I have no particular reason to anticipate a war in the immediate future. But Emperor William and his Government have let Germany get into a state of mind such that if some dispute arose, in Morocco, the East—anywhere—they could neither give way nor compromise. A success is essential at any price and to obtain it they’ll risk some adventure.”
    The Tsar reflected a moment:
    “I can’t believe the Emperor wants war . . . If you knew him as I do! If you knew how much theatricality there is in his posing! …
    “Perhaps I am doing Emperor William too much honour in thinking him capable of willing, or simply accepting the consequences of his acts. But if war threatened would he, and could he prevent it? No, Sire, I don’t think so, honestly, I don’t.”
    The Tsar sat silent and puffed at his cigarette. Then he said in a resolute voice:
    “It’s all the more important for us to be able to count on England in an emergency. Unless she has gone out of her mind altogether Germany will never attack Russia, France and England combined…
    The President of the Republic has spent to-day visiting St. Petersburg.
    Before leaving Peterhof he was in conference with the Tsar. They discussed seriatim all the questions on the diplomatic tapis at the moment: the strained relations between Greece and Turkey; the intrigues of the Bulgarian Government in the Balkans; the Prince of Wied’s arrival in Albania; the application of the Anglo-Russian Agreements in Persia; the political orientation of the Scandinavian States, etc. They concluded their review with the problem of the Austro-Serbian dispute, a problem which becomes more worrying every day owing to the arrogant and mysterious attitude of Austria. Poincaré has insisted with great force that the only way of saving the peace of the world is an open discussion between all the Great Powers, taking care that one group is not opposed to another. “It’s the method that served us so well in 1913,” he said. ” Let’s try it again . . .!” Nicholas II entirely agreed.

    Or the discussions between Sazonov and the German Ambassador the Count of Pourtales:

    “As I anticipated, Germany wholeheartedly supports the Austrian cause. Not the slightest suggestion of conciliation. So I told Pourtalès quite bluntly that we should not leave Serbia to settle her differences with Austria alone. Our talk ended in a very acrimonious tone.”
    “Really?”
    “Yes … Can you imagine what he had the audacity to tell me? He reproached me, me and all other Russians, with disliking Austria and having no scruples about troubling the last years of her aged Emperor. I retorted: ‘No, of course, we don’t like Austria . . . Why should we like her? She has never done us anything but harm. As for her aged Emperor, he owes it to us that he still has his crown on his head. Just remember how he showed his gratitude in 1855, 1878 and 1908 . . . What! Reproach us with not liking Austria! That’s a bit too much! ‘ ”
    “It’s a bad business, Minister. If conversations between Petersburg and Berlin are to continue in this strain they won’t last long. Very soon we shall see Emperor William rise in his ‘shining armour.’ Please be calm. Exhaust every possibility of compromise! Don’t forget that my government is a government based on public opinion and can only support you effectively if it has public opinion behind it. And think of English opinion also.”

    The Memoirs are a worth read. It is full of interesting ‘discussions’.
    If you like an overview of the problems you may consult http://whoistoblameforwwi.weebly.com/

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  289. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    That one book is far from being all I have in store for you in August, should you wish it.

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  290. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    … because it was fine when the electorate were educated and principled men and women with a common goal of mutual prosperity and mutual respect.

    This will be my final comment on Unz. I enjoyed debating with several of the commenters who frequent this site… and I wish them nothing but the best.

    what gives Geo?

    why did you depart on my (rather banal) comment? (hope it wasn’t personal)

    cheers to you if you’ve found a better use of your free time. God bless and God speed in all you do..

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  291. Marcus says:
    @Avery

    Greeks had been living there how many centuries before Muslims emerged from the desert?

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  292. L.K says:
    @Seraphim

    @Seraphim

    Yawwnnn, the tired Lebensraum BS, totally taken out of context and used by propagandists to “explain” German decision-making leading to and during the war.

    A well informed commenter at another forum put it best( I’ve edited it a little);

    “The word “Lebensraum” is often misinterpretated. In January 1939, after uniting the Austrian, Sudenten and German brothers in a German Reich, Hitler said that the process of the formation of the German nation – the German “Lebensraum” – had reached its conclusion (see speech below).*

    In 1938 and 1939 Hitler also offered to guarantee the Polish borders established at Versailles* and so proposed to renounce the lost German “Lebensraum” in Poland once and for all.

    Do “land-grabbers” planning wars for living space act that way?

    In Mein Kampf Hitler talked about potential “Lebensraum” in Russia. (This must be understood also in the context of Hitlers own traumatic experiences in WWI, which had only recently ended when he began writing MK.
    I’m referring to the deadly naval blockade of Germany which lasted until 1919 and included foodstuffs, killing hundreds of thousands of Germans.)

    That’s true. But he wrote that because he thought that the Soviet Union was about to collapse and dissolve on its own (because the Jews – leading Russia at that time – were a “ferment of decomposition” according to Hitler’s words).

    If that had happened, Germany and other big Powers would have seized parts of the dislocated Soviet cake.
    But that does Not mean that Hitler wanted a war for “Lebensraum” with the mighty Soviet Union( an armed camp as Suvorov put it) 17 years AFTER writing Mein Kampf. ( at the time of the writing of Mein Kampf, as Hitler himself admitted later, he could not even dream of becoming Germany’s chancellor.)

    *Adolf Hitler Speech – 1939.01.30 – at around 2:40 / Eng. subs

    The commenter adds:

    “…Wouldn’t Hitler have stopped his repatriation operation of all ethnic Germans living outside the Reich’s borders (the “Heim Ins Reich” – Home in the Reich- operation) if he had been planning to populate those areas with Germans after victory?”

    Exactly.

    At any rate, as I have explained in a series of posts on this thread – which I still need to finish -, the war with the USSR had precisely ZERO to do with expansionism and Lebensraum and everything to do with the diplomatic, military and geopolitical situation at the time.

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  293. L.K says:
    @Seraphim

    More crap. Fritz Fischer has long since been debunked.

    I think people like u, who in this day and age, are still trying to make Germany the responsible party for the great war, r just dishonest and fearful of the fact that, as many historians have recognized, W.War I conclusion, imposed by the victors, basically made sure that a new war would break out in the future. So WWI, the original sin, must be blamed on Germany as well.

    Elements of the british ‘deep state’ were the key masterminds of WWI and Churchill and his war mongers were later also heavily responsible for WWII.

    For a new take on British responsability for WWI, I recommend people read “Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War”, by Scottish historians Gerry Docherty (Author), Jim MacGregor.

    https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-History-Secret-Origins-First/dp/1780576307

    “Hidden History uniquely exposes those responsible for World War I. It reveals how accounts of the war’s origins have been deliberately falsified to conceal the guilt of the secret cabal of very rich and powerful men in London responsible for the most heinous crime perpetrated on humanity. For 10 years, they plotted the destruction of Germany as the first stage of their plan to take control of the world. The assassination of Archduke Franz Ferdinand was no chance happening. It lit a fuse that had been carefully set through a chain of command stretching from Sarajevo through Belgrade and St. Petersburg to that cabal in London. Our understanding of these events has been firmly trapped in a web of falsehood and duplicity carefully constructed by the victors at Versailles in 1919 and maintained by compliant historians ever since. The official version is fatally flawed, warped by the volume of evidence they destroyed or concealed from public view. Hidden History poses a tantalizing challenge. The authors ask only that you examine the evidence they lay before you.”

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  294. L.K says:

    Re the recent book ‘Hidden History’, I think the review by Peter Hof is really good:

    [MORE]

    In the beginning there was Article 231. It stated:

    “The Allied and Associated Governments affirm and Germany accepts the responsibility of Germany and her allies for causing all the loss and damage to which the Allied and Associated Governments and their nationals have been subjected as a consequence of the war imposed upon them by the aggression of Germany and her allies.”

    But the release and publication of official diplomatic documents after 1918 – initiated by Austria and Germany – produced two trail-blazing books by two American revisionist historians, Barnes and Fay, that permanently consigned Article 231 to the historical dustbin and no respectable historian dares refer to it today except with contempt. In succeeding decades as the battle for history raged, the war-guilt question (kriegschuldvrage) inhabited a shadowy no-man’s-land between allied propaganda and the ever-growing pressure of historical truth. In October, 1961, German historian Fritz Fischer launched an all-out assault on the revisionists with his book “Germany’s Aims in the First World War.” (German title: “Griff nach der Weltmacht: Die Kriegzielpolitik des kaiserlichen Deutschland 1914-1918″).
    Fischer claimed that Germany had started the War in order to gain hegemony in Europe and then the world. Referred to as the “Fischer Thesis,” it caused a sensation in Germany and was enthusiastically embraced by the blame-Germany-first crowd. Fischer was soon refuted by other German historians – most notably Gerhard Ritter – who pointed out that Germany already had hegemony in Europe, won, not by boots, bullets, and battleships, but by the industry and talent of her people. This was amply underscored by a veritable mountain of economic statistics which prove beyond any doubt that in the summer of 1914, Germany was first among equals by every conceivable measure. Why then would Germany risk a war against a numerically superior opponent in order to gain hegemony – something she already possessed in spades? But the “Fischer Thesis” was the only remaining game in town and historians clung to it like a drowning man to a life preserver.

    Nevertheless, the times they were changing. In 1998, Oxford historian Niall Ferguson published “The Pity of War” to rave reviews. The back cover of the book states:

    “The Pity of War makes a simple and provocative argument: the human atrocity known as the Great War was entirely England’s fault. According to Niall Ferguson, England entered into the war based on naïve assumptions of German aims, thereby transforming a Continental conflict into a world war, which it then badly mishandled, necessitating American involvement. The war was not inevitable, Ferguson argues, but rather was the mistaken decisions of individuals who would later claim to have been in the grip of impersonal forces.”

    This was followed by similar volumes which disputed German war-guilt. In 2011 came “The Russian Origins of the First World” War by Sean McMeekin, and in 2012 came “The Sleepwalkers, How Europe Went to War in 1914″ by Cristopher Clark. These books contain valuable information and have the virtue of further destroying the stubborn canard that the Central Powers started the War, but they lack in some respects the finality which the published documents fully support.

    Comes now “Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War” by Gerry Docherty and James Macgregor. This is the very first volume that states the case straightforward and unapologetically: It was Great Britain – not Germany and Austria – who started the Great War of 1914-18. Why would Great Britain do such a thing? British leaders sensed that Germany, given her growing economic/military hegemony in Europe, might soon be in a position to challenge the world hegemony wielded by the mighty British Empire. Britannia had grown quite used to ruling the waves and waving the rules, and the notion that it was England’s destiny to instruct the “lesser races” was common in Elizabethan and Victorian England. Thus the frightening possibility that an upstart Germany could upset the Albion applecart had to forestalled and the sooner the better.
    Messrs. Docherty and Macgregor begin by telling us about one fateful wintry day in February 1891: “The three staunch British imperialists who met that day, Cecil Rhodes , William Stead and Lord Esher, drew up a plan for the organisation of a secret society that would take over the control of foreign policy both in Britain and, later by extension, the United States of America: a secret society that aimed to renew the Anglo-Saxon bond between Great Britain and the United States, spread all that they considered good in the English ruling-class traditions, and expand the British Empire’s influence in a world they believed they were destined to control.”

    The “Secret Elite” – the name chosen by the authors to avoid the profusion of names under which the “Group” operated – gave an early and convincing demonstration of their strength and influence by causing two hitherto independent, sovereign nations – Transvaal and the Orange Free State – to be annexed by the British Empire.
    On February 8, 1901, Edward VII informed the German representative, Baron Hermann von Eckardstein that “For a long time at least there can be no more any question of Great Britain and Germany working together in any conceivable matter” (Massie, Dreadnought, p. 309). With this, the British ship of state began slowly to steer in the direction of Paris and St. Petersburg and away from Berlin. From this point forward, British foreign policy left little doubt as to its intended goal. First came the 1904 Entente Cordiale in the wake of the British King’s diplomacy. Then came a similar understanding with Russia in 1907. This last completed the transformation of the moribund Franco-Russian alliance into the very potent Triple Entente and the Austro-German Press began to mutter darkly about einkreisung (encirclement). Further German objections came in the form of the two Moroccan crises in 1905 and 1911 when German diplomacy attempted to drive a wedge between Britain and France. But the hostile 1911 Mansion House speech by Lloyd George made it clear that there were no prospects for success in this direction.
    When the July crisis threatened war and a forthright exposition of the British attitude would have preserved the peace, Sir Edward Grey played his cards close to the vest. Having already given a verbal promise of a 120,000-man expeditionary force to Poincare and Sasonov in 1912, Grey now hinted to a worried Cambon that the concentration of the British fleet should answer his doubts, whilst whispering into the Austro-German ear that England would remain neutral. With the deftness of a carnival huckster, Grey subtly encouraged both sides to interpret the British position according to their own preferences, thereby coaxing the opposing alliance systems onto a collision course.
    Governmental and public opposition to the war in England bordered on unanimity but Sir Edward had an ace up his sleeve. He knew that the German plan of campaign called for a lightening thrust at France through Belgium. This enabled him to use the treaty of 1839 to circumvent the opposition and send Tommy Atkins to line up outside the recruiter’s office.

    But was Great Britain wrong or even unique? After all, some two-thousand years ago the Romans made an analogous decision that resulted in the Punic Wars and the disappearance of Carthage from the world map. Other empires made similar decisions for similar reasons. But however we choose to judge Great Britain, the fact remains that it was she – not Germany – who was responsible for the Great War and this is forcefully presented in this trailblazing, first-of-its-kind volume – highly recommended and indispensable for any student of the First World War. In summary, it may be said that King Edward VII discovered the moribund spear of the Franco-Russian alliance. Sir Edward Grey felt its heft, polished and sharpened it, and used the Sarajevo crisis to hurl it at Germany. The rest, as they say, is history.

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  295. Marcus says:
    @L.K

    I wouldn’t say that it had zero to do with the invasion, but it is true that Hitler saw Britain as the greatest threat: eliminating the USSR would force Britain to sue for peace in his view http://library.und.edu/digital/nuremberg-transcripts/doc/18/page/63

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  296. Avery says:
    @Marcus

    {…how many centuries…}

    Not centuries: millenia.
    Not an expert on Greek history, but from what little I know, probably 4-5 thousand years.


    {…Muslims emerged from the desert?….}

    Not the desert: Turkic Muslim invadonomad tribes used to roam the areas in and around Mongolian steppes. Around Altai mountains. Around 1,000 AD, the barbarian nomads appeared at the outer edges of the Armenian Highlands. It took the nomad savages about another 5 centuries to reach the Bosphorus and defile the magnificent Sophia Hagia.

    The retrograde IslamoFascist Erdogan AKP gang is doubling down: they have started preaching Islam (Koran reading sessions) inside the sacred walls of Hagia Sophia.

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  297. Avery says:
    @L.K

    {Yawwnnn, the tired Lebensraum BS, totally taken out of context and used by propagandists to “explain” German decision-making leading to and during the war.}

    Yawwnnn right back at you, you mongrel.POS™.

    Still writing pages and pages of tired neo-Nazi revisionist propaganda b___s___ , vainly attempting to absolve your Nazi forebears of their genocidal crimes.

    Keep shoveling the s___ in the s__hole you are in, you mongrel.POS™: you will surely find gold any day now.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

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  298. Seraphim says:
    @L.K

    @According to Niall Ferguson, England entered into the war based on naïve assumptions of German aims

    It is hard, in forums like this, to cover in few hundred words what historians could not cover in millions of words spread over thousands of books, articles, debates, mostly tinged by attempts to shift the blame for a catastrophe of that magnitude on the ‘other’, or by partisan ideologies.
    ‘Lebensraum’ was, of course, understood differently at different periods in history. But it is undeniable that the East was the natural ‘vital space’ for the Germans since Roman times (the Goths, contrary to the mythical archeology of Arianism/Pangermanism augmented by American WASP White supremacist BS – which was not German in the first place-, have been colonized in Ukraine and Crimea by the Romans as their mandataries!). ‘Ostsiedlung’ cum ‘Northern Crusades’ started well before the ‘Drang nach Osten’ (irrespective of the fact that the term was coined by the Polish journalist Julian Klaczko in 1849). Russia, especially, was a fertile ground to absorb the surplus of the German population and for the Germans themselves an opportunity to deploy their talents, energy, creativity. From the time of the great plans of Leibniz and Peter the Great onwards, through non-confrontational policies of Russo-German collaboration Russia was becoming more German by the day!
    Hitler understood that well:
    “We will begin our work where it was left off six hundred years ago. We will stop the eternal Germanic migration to the south and west of Europe we have seen in the past and look toward the land in the east. We will finally end the colonial and trade policy of pre-war times and move forward into the land policy of the future”.

    [MORE]

    But one cannot eliminate the other aspect, the desire of Germany to be a World Power and the realization that it would be impossible without the Russian resources (from the beginning of the 20th Century to these very days, Petroleum. Even if we look at the German ambitions to develop a Fleet to match the British one, when the British shifted to petrol-propelled ships, the only source available to them was the Russian petrol). It could have been done by continuing and developing the collaboration with Russia (which Weimarian Germany did), or by taking those resources into their own administration. The Holy Alliance established after the demise of Napoleon was the first step in that direction.
    But both these possibilities could not, obviously, be stomached by Britain. “An industrialized Russia exploited by the organizing genius of Germany conjures up a vision which no Western European can contemplate with equanimity”. The more that the Eastern expansion would have brought into the equation the whole Eurasian space.
    We can’t delve here into the solutions proposed by the “Geopolitics” of Mackinder, but it is absolutely clear that the policy of Britain was to sabotage by all means these frightful developments, which, in the own terms of Mac Kinder, would threaten and annul the sea trade dominated by the British, in a natural and inevitable collusion with the growing power of their transatlantic spawn commandeered from the same dark recesses of the ‘City of London’. And that policy started immediately after the establishment of the Holy Alliance by fomenting revolutions and wars on the ‘Continent’ from the splendid isolation of the Isles. Yes, I think that Niall Ferguson is right, except that her assumptions of German aims were not that ‘naive’. Britain’s aims were to push Germany and Russia into a war which would exhaust both, creating the conditions for the free exploitation of Russia and Europe by the Jewish-Anglo-American banking cartel. Belatedly even Kaiser Wilhelm recognized that the Jews and Masons pushed him to war.
    What must also be taken into consideration is the Zionist plan of creating a Jewish state in Russia under German hegemony to which Germany (albeit reluctantly) agreed. I have already spoken about the plan to establish the League of eastern States. I refresh your memory. “On August 1914, at the outbreak of World War I, Max Bodenheimer submitted an ‘Exposé on the Synchronization of German and Jewish Interests in the World War’ to German military headquarters in Cologne. He set out his vision to Count Hutten-Czapski of the General Staff, chief of sabotage operations on the eastern front. Now, it is certain that already “in 1902, Bodenheimer petitioned the Kaiser to form a league of Eastern European states in Poland, Lithuania and other areas. This would, he believed, fit in with German East European Policy, which was to detach these lands from Russia and thereby reduce the Russian threat. He persuaded himself, and tried to persuade the German government, that the Jews would have a natural affinity for Germany, as they spoke Yiddish. To an extent, this was undeniably true, since young Jews in Russia compared their miserable condition to the splendor of German Jewry, and since they very often came to Germany to complete their studies.” (This is the Jewish take on the facts! – see http://www.zionism-israel.com/bio/Max_Bodenheimer.htm).
    But no ‘Hidden’ histories seem willing to tackle this vexatious problem (which survived in the undeniable collaboration between Nazi Germany and Zionism).
    The task of expanding the German domination over the South-East of Europe was left to Austria, who was under the sway of the Jewish bankers as well.
    So, it is true that Germany fell into the British trap. But that only mitigates her guilt. Germans willingly fell into it. All the Pangermanistic/Aryan BS combined with the BS that they have the mission to withstand “Panslavism’ created among Germans that atmosphere of belligerence which made them want the war. Germans have been the victims of their own hubristic stupidity, the effect of the Jewish induced stultification of the anti-Christian Reform (both Lutheran and Calvinist).

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  299. @Rurik

    cheers to you if you’ve found a better use of your free time

    Probably he’ll still be here, just using a different alias. The Geokat62 persona does not have much credibility any more.

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  300. Seraphim says:
    @5371

    If my assumption that the book you are referring to (“The Russian Origins of the First World War”, by Sean McMeekin) you can save your breath and time. It is a piece of embarrasingly anti-Russian propaganda masqerading as history, remarkable only by its disgusting approval of the Turkish massacres of Armenians. He does not say anything more about the Tsar -Paleologue discussions than Paleologue himself.

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  301. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    You are not assuming successfully. The discussions I referred to were not centered on Turkey, and I have not read the book you mentioned. But if you feel you have nothing to learn, by all means, I will not try to impose on you.

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  302. L.K says:
    @Avery

    Bzzzzzz….bzzzzz

    what’s that? oh, it’s that little armenian insect again!
    Darn, I must remember to bring my repellant next time….

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  303. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @L.K
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  304. Seraphim says:
    @5371

    My dear friend,

    It looks like you are the one who needs to learn more. Don’t give up. I am still curious about the other books which fell under my radar. I am afraid that in August all would be forgotten.

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  305. Avery says:
    @L.K

    {….that little armenian insect…}

    Better being an Armenian, a known noble ethnos, than being a mange mongrel.POS™. How many mange dog breeds in your ancestry, you neo-Nazi Schweinhund POS.

    And when you get that repellent, don’t forget your double-strength flea collar.
    You neo-Nazi Schweinhund mongrel.POS™.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

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  306. @Avery

    You need serious help.

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  307. L.K says:
    @Seraphim

    Seraphim,

    You are blowing yourself way out of proportion lad, and nobody is impressed.

    You r just more of the same – and boring – anti-German propagandists.

    The way assclowns like u operate in a nutshell:

    Any ‘histories’ blaming Germany for the world wars == “yeah, serious research, way to go”.

    Any historians demonstrating with hard evidence that such views do NOT survive scrutiny and constitute only the victors’ ‘history’, i.e., ‘exonerates’ Germany == oh no, no, that just propaganda.

    ‘Nice’ try, but no cookies.

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  308. L.K says:

    Re the ‘Fischer Thesis’, Peter Hof briefly discusses it in his review of ‘Hidden History: The Secret Origins of the First World War’:

    In October, 1961, German historian Fritz Fischer launched an all-out assault on the revisionists with his book “Germany’s Aims in the First World War.” (German title: “Griff nach der Weltmacht: Die Kriegzielpolitik des kaiserlichen Deutschland 1914-1918″).
    Fischer claimed that Germany had started the War in order to gain hegemony in Europe and then the world. Referred to as the “Fischer Thesis,” it caused a sensation in Germany and was enthusiastically embraced by the blame-Germany-first crowd. Fischer was soon refuted by other German historians – most notably Gerhard Ritter – who pointed out that Germany already had hegemony in Europe, won, not by boots, bullets, and battleships, but by the industry and talent of her people. This was amply underscored by a veritable mountain of economic statistics which prove beyond any doubt that in the summer of 1914, Germany was first among equals by every conceivable measure. Why then would Germany risk a war against a numerically superior opponent in order to gain hegemony – something she already possessed in spades? But the “Fischer Thesis” was the only remaining game in town and historians clung to it like a drowning man to a life preserver.

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  309. Seraphim says:
    @L.K

    My friend,

    Your latest interventions were not necessary. You made me already laugh at your first ones. You are blowing yourself out of proportion talking about things you obviously have no grasp on.

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  310. 5371 says:
    @Seraphim

    Oh, I won’t forget. And if I haven’t enlightened you by, shall we say, August 15, I hereby invite you to remind me.

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  311. Avery says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Yes, I am sure you do.
    Seriously.

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  312. Making an assumption that Poland ‘attacking Russia’ has been somewhat akin to the Irish, or Scots ‘attacking’ England during times of her trouble – more about ‘getting back territory’ one thinks of as one’s homeland more than any intention of conquest, shouldn’t Belarus and Ukraine be absolutely terrified? After all any attack – in either direction – is going to have to go through them – and parts of them were parts of Poland annexed by war within living memory.

    Or is all the sabre-rattling about Kaliningrad (Konigsburg) – which has been part of Germany for far longer than it belonged to Poland – if it ever did belong to Poland.

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  313. @L.K

    One British criticism of the EU, published last year, was that the Germans have accomplished their war aims, this time without a fight.

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  314. Ma Laoshi says:
    @Tom Welsh

    I’ve thought often about European attitudes now and then. An issue is that the USSR / Warsaw Pact may have looked genuinely scary to Europeans. At present, ordinary people in eastern Europe continue to hate whom they’re told to hate, but clearly their leadership don’t fear the Bear at all. When Russian elites come to Europe it’s to shop for BMW and Chanel, not to conquer the place–everyone who counts sees this. With the Romanian missile facility, the Kremlin more-or-less said “no means no”; when it was built anyway, nothing happened. There’s just not much deterrence emanating from a Russia which primarily seeks acceptance and “partnership” from the West, at almost any cost. And Russia as a trading partner is just not big enough to be crucial to Europeans, as long as the gas keeps flowing.

    Maybe also, the Zionist virus has really affected minds, especially among the liberal left. With military backing from Uncle Sam and theological cover from Israel, Europeans consider themselves untouchable–immune. Even now the refugees have started coming, even after Ukraine’s Maidan adventure pretty much wrecked that country. The thought that their own cities could ever burn just doesn’t register. They may return to their senses only when Russia or someone else smashes their teeth in. Then again, this might make matters much worse.

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  315. Logan says:

    Poland … has a long history of trying to attack Russia when Russia is at her weakest

    True enough, but just a tad misleading, as Russia has done the same to Poland, indeed twice causing Poland to disappear from the map entirely.

    With the exception of a brief period right after WWI, Polish interaction with Russia/USSR has been pretty exclusively defensive. Which is not to say that they wouldn’t have liked to attack Russia, they just weren’t strong enough.

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  316. DV1937 says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Why would any country want to import European culture.

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