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Escalation in Syria – How Far Can the Russians be Pushed?
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Events in Syria have recently clearly taken a turn for the worse and there is an increasing amount of evidence that the Russian task force in Syria is being targeted by a systematic campaign of “harassing attacks”.

First, there was the (relatively successful) drone and mortar attack on the Russian Aerospace base in Khmeimin. Then there was the shooting down of a Russian SU-25 over the city of Maasran in the Idlib province. Now we hear of Russian casualties in the US raid on a Syrian column (along with widely exaggerated claims of “hundreds” of killed Russians). In the first case, Russian officials did openly voice their strong suspicion that the attack was if not planned and executed by the US, then at least coordinated with the US forces in the vicinity. In the case of the downing of the SU-25, no overt accusations have been made, but many experts have stated that the altitude at which the SU-25 was hit strongly suggests a rather modern MANPAD of a type not typically seen in Syria (the not so subtle hint being here that these were US Stingers sent to the Kurds by the US). As for the latest attack on the Syrian column, what is under discussion is not who did it but rather what kind of Russian personnel was involved, Russian military or private contractors (the latter is a much more likely explanation since the Syrian column had no air-cover whatsoever). Taken separately, none of these incidents mean very much but taken together they might be indicative of a new US strategy in Syria: to punish the Russians as much as possible short of an overt US attack on Russian forces. To me this hypothesis seems plausible for the following reasons:

First, the US and Israel are still reeling in humiliation and impotent rage over their defeat in Syria: Assad is still in power, Daesh is more or less defeated, the Russians were successful not only their military operations against Daesh but also in their campaign to bring as many “good terrorists” to the negotiating table as possible. With the completion of a successful conference on Syria in Russia and the general agreement of all parties to begin working on a new constitution, there was a real danger of peace breaking out, something the AngloZionist are absolutely determined to oppose (check out this apparently hacked document which, if genuine, clearly states the US policy not to allow the Russian to get anything done).

Second, both Trump and Netanyahu have promised to bring in lots of “victories” to prove how manly and strong they are (as compared to the sissies which preceded them). Starting an overt war against Russian would definitely be a “proof of manhood”, but a much too dangerous one. Killing Russians “on the margins”, so to speak, either with plausible deniability or, alternatively, killing Russians private contractors is much safer and thus far more tempting option.

Third, there are presidential elections coming up in Russia and the Americans are still desperately holding on to their sophomoric notion that if they create trouble for Putin (sanctions or body bags from Syria) they can somehow negatively impact his popularity in Russia (in reality they achieve the opposite effect, but they are too dull and ignorant to realize that).

Last but not least, since the AngloZionists have long since lost the ability to actually gett anything done, their logical fall-back position is not to let anybody else succeed either. This is the main purpose of the entire US deployment in northern Syria: to create trouble for Turkey, Iran, Syria and, of course, Russia.

The bottom line is this: since the Americans have declared that they will (illegally) stay in Syria until the situation “stabilizes” they now must do everything their power to destabilize Syria. Yes, there is a kind of a perverse logic to all that…

For Russia, all this bad news could be summed up in the following manner: while Russia did defeat Daesh in Syria she is still far from having defeated the AngloZionists in the Middle-East. The good news is, however, that Russia does have options to deal with this situation.

Step one: encouraging the Turks

There is a counter-intuitive but in many ways an ideal solution for Russia to counter the US invasion of Syria: involve the Turks. How? Not by attacking the US forces directly, but by attacking the Kurdish militias the Americans are currently “hiding” behind (at least politically). Think of it, while the US (or Israel) will have no second thoughts whatsoever before striking Syrian or Iranian forces, actually striking Turkish forces would carry an immense political risk: following the US-backed coup attempt against Erdogan and, just to add insult to injury, the US backing for the creation of a “mini-Kurdistsan” both in Iraq and in Syria, US-Turkish relations are at an all-time low and it would not take much to push the Turks over the edge with potentially cataclysmic consequences for the US, EU, NATO, CENTCOM, Israel and all the AngloZionist interests in the region. Truly, there is no overstating the strategic importance of Turkey for Europe, the Mediterranean and the Middle-East, and the Americans know that. From this flows a very real if little understood consequence: the Turkish armed forces in Syria basically enjoy what I would call a “political immunity” from any US attacks, that is to say that (almost) no matter what the Turks do, the US would (almost) never consider actually openly using force against them simply because the consequence of, say, a USAF strike on a Turkish army column would be too serious to contemplate.

ORDER IT NOW

In fact, I believe the US-Turkish relationship is so bad and so one-sided that I see a Turkish attack on a Kurdish (or “good terrorist”) column/position with embedded US Special Forces far more likely than a US attack on a Turkish army column. This might sound counter-intuitive, but let’s say the Turks did attack a Kurdish (or “good terrorist”) column/position with US personnel and that US servicemen would die as the result. What would/could the US do? Retaliate in kind? No way! Not only is the notion of the US attacking a fellow NATO country member is quite unthinkable, it would most likely be followed by a Turkish demand that the US/NATO completely withdraw from Turkey’s territory and airspace. In theory, the US could ask the Israelis to do their dirty job for them, but the Israelis are not stupid (even if they are crazy) and they won’t have much interest in starting a shooting war with Turkey over what is a US-created problem in a “mini-Kurdistan”, lest any hallowed “Jewish blood” be shed for some basically worthless goyim.

No, if the Turks actually killed US servicemen there would be protests and a flurry of “consultations” and other symbolic actions, but beyond that, the US would take the losses and do nothing about it. As for Erdogan, his popularity at home would only soar even higher. What all this means in practical terms is that if there is one actor which can seriously disrupt the US operations in northern Syria, or even force the US to withdraw, it is Turkey. That kind of capability also gives Turkey a lot of bargaining power with Russia and Iran which I am sure Erdogan will carefully use to his own benefit. So far Erdogan has only threatened to deliver an “Ottoman slap” to the US and Secretary of State Tillerson is traveling to Ankara to try to avert a disaster, but the Turkish instance that the US chose either the Turkish or the Kurdish side in the conflict very severely limits the chances of any real breakthrough (the Israel lobby being 100% behind the Kurds). One should never say never, but I submit that it would take something of a miracle at this point to really salvage the US-Turkish relationship. Russia can try to capitalize on this dynamic.

The main weakness of this entire concept is, of course, that the US is still powerful enough, including inside Turkey, and it would be very dangerous for Erdogan to try to openly confront and defy Uncle Sam. So far, Erdogan has been acting boldly and in overt defiance of the US, but he also understands the risks of going too far and for him to even consider taking such risks there have to be prospects of major benefits from him. Here the Russians have two basic options: either to promise the Turks something very beneficial or to somehow further damage the current relationship between the US and Turkey. The good news here is that Russian efforts to drive a wedge between the US and Turkey are greatly assisted by the US support for Israel, Kurds, and Gulenists.

The other obvious risk is that any anti-Kurdish operation can turn into yet another partition of Syria, this time by the Turks. However, the reality is that the Turks can’t really stay for too long in Syria, especially not if Russia and Iran oppose this. There is also the issue of international law which is much easier for the US to ignore than for the Turks.

For all these reasons using the Turks to put pressure on the US has its limitations. Still, if the Turks continue to insist that the US stop supporting the Kurds, or if they continue putting military pressure on the Kurdish militias, then the entire US concept of a US-backed “mini-Kurdistan” collapses and, with it, the entire US partition plan for Syria.

So far, the Iraqis have quickly dealt with the US-sponsored “mini-Kurdistan” in Iraq and the Turks are now taking the necessary steps to deal with the US-sponsored “mini-Kurdistan” in Syria at which point *their* problem will be solved. The Turks are not interested in helping Assad or, for that matter, Putin and they don’t care what happens to Syria as long as *their* Kurdish problem is under control. This means that the Syrians, Russians, and Iranians should not place too much hope on the Turks turning against the US unless, of course, the correct circumstances are created. Only the future will tell whether the Russians and the Iranians will be able to help to create such circumstances.

Step two: saturating Syria with mobile modern short/middle range air defenses

Right now nobody knows what kind of air-defense systems the Russians have been delivering to the Syrians over the past couple of years, but that is clearly the way to go for the Russians: delivering as many modern and mobile air defense systems to the Syrians. While this would be expensive, the best solution here would be to deliver as many Pantsir-S1 mobile Gun/SAM systems and 9K333 Verba MANPADs as possible to the Syrians and the Iranians. The combination of these two systems would immensely complicate any kind of air operations for the Americans and Israelis, especially since there would be no practical way of reliably predicting the location from which they could operate. And since both the US and Israel are operating in the Syrian skies in total violation of international law while the Syrian armed forces would be protecting their own sovereign airspace, such a delivery of air-defense systems by Russia to Syria would be impeccably legal. Best of all, it would be absolutely impossible for the AngloZionist to know who actually shot at them since these weapon systems are mobile and easy to conceal. Just like in Korea, Vietnam or Lebanon, Russian crews could even be sent to operate the Syrian air defense systems and there would be no way for anybody to prove that “the Russians did it” when US and Israeli aircraft would start falling out of the skies. The Russians would enjoy what the CIA calls “plausible deniability”. The Americans and Israelis would, of course, turn against the weaker party, the Syrians, but that other than feeling good that would not really make a difference on the ground as the Syrians skies would not become safer for US or Israelis air forces.

The other option for the Russians would be to offer upgrades (software and missile) to the existing Syrian air defense systems, especially their road-mobile 2K12 Kub and 9K37 Buk systems. Such upgrades, especially if combined with enough deployed Pantsirs and Verbas would be a nightmare for both the Americans and the Israelis. The Turks would not care much since they are already basically flying with the full approval of the Russians anyway, and neither would the Iranians who, as far as I know, have no air operations in Syria.

One objection to this plan would be that two can play this game and that there is nothing preventing the US from sending even more advanced MANPADs to their “good terrorist” allies, but that argument entirely misses the point: if both sides do the same thing, the side which is most dependent on air operations (the US) stands to lose much more than the side which has the advantage on the ground (the Russians). Furthermore, by sending MANPADs to Syria, the US is alienating a putative ally, Turkey, whereas if Russia sends MANPADs and other SAMs to Syria the only one who will be complaining will be the Israelis. When that happens, the Russians will have a simple and truthful reply: we did not start this game, your US allies did, you can go and thank them for this mess.

The main problem in Syria is the fact that the US and the Israelis are currently operating in the Syrian skies with total impunity. If this changes, this will be a slow and gradual process. First, there would be a few isolated losses (like the Israeli F-16 recently), then we would see that the location of US and/or Israeli airstrikes would gradually shift from urban centers and central command posts to smaller, more isolated targets (such as vehicle columns). This would indicate an awareness that the most lucrative targets are already too well defended. Eventually, the number of air sorties would be gradually replaced by cruise and ballistic missiles strikes. Underlying it all would be a shift from offensive air operations to force protection which, in turn, would give the Syrians, Iranians, and Hezbollah a much easier environment to operate in. But the necessary first step for any of that to happen would be to dramatically increase the capability of Syrian air defenses.

Hezbollah has, for decades, very successfully operated under total Israeli air supremacy and their experience of this kind of operations would be invaluable to the Syrians until they sufficiently built up their air defense capabilities.

Conclusion: is counter-escalation really the only option?

Frankly, I am starting to believe that the Empire has decided to attempt a partial “reconquista” of Syria, even Macron is making some noises about striking the Syrians to “punish” them for their use of (non-existing) chemical weapons. At the very least, the US wants to make the Russians pay as high a price as possible for their role in Syria. Further US goals in Syria include:

  • The imposition of a de-facto partition of Syria by taking under control the Syrian territory east of the Euphrates river (we could call that “plan C version 3.0”)
  • The theft of the gas fields located in northeastern Syria
  • The creation of a US-controlled staging area from which Kurdish, good terrorist and bad terrorist operations can be planned and executed
  • The sabotaging of any Russian-backed peace negotiations
  • The support for Israeli operations against Iranian and Hezbollah forces in Lebanon and Syria
  • Engaging in regular attacks against Syrian forces attempting to liberate their country from foreign invaders
  • Presenting the invasion and occupation of Syria as one of the “victories” promised by Trump to the MIC and the Israel lobby

So far the Russian response to this developing strategy has been a rather a passive one and the current escalation strongly suggests that a new approach might be needed. The shooting down of the Israeli F-16 is a good first step, but much more needs to be done to dramatically increase the costs the Empire will have to pay for is policies towards Syria. The increase in the number of Russian commentators and analysts demanding a stronger reaction to the current provocations might be a sign that something is in the making.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: American Military, Russia, Syria, Turkey 
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  1. The proliferation of SAMs and MANPADs can only lead to eventual blowback and in a big way. I’d hate to hear of more innocent civilians killed on commercial flights as with MH17 but it doesn’t take the ownership of a deluxe model crystal ball to say that at some point it will happen, either in the US or EU. Should El Al planes be hit it would be very damaging for Israel’s reputation and economy and likewise the US. I’m of the opinion that Russia would face less of a threat but would still run risks. This is all for what?

    • Replies: @yurivku
    , @G. B.
  2. one way or another – first via ISIS and other Sunni terrorists, now via the Kurds – the Jews are determined to use Syria to spark a final White-on-White (‘Murka vs. Russia) World Massacre. And unless Putin puts his foot down fairly soon, (((they))) are likely to get away with it.

    • Agree: Druid
    • Replies: @Paulv
    , @hunor
  3. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Trump will slaughter the Russians if they try anything.

    • LOL: bluedog
  4. Mr T says:

    To the Saker,

    Do you think the US may eventually end up in a Dien Bien Phu situation in Syria ?
    An isolated outpost dependent on air control, gradually being strangled by ground forces ?

    Taher

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  5. Ma Laoshi says:

    All nicely argued, but are these even new developments. The impunity for US/IL air assets over Syria has been a huge problem for Russia’s stated goals there for two years already, and giving Syrians the tools to defend their own airspace has always been an obvious remedy. That this has not happened would suggest that the Kremlin doesn’t *want* to do this–that for some reason, they are willing accomplices to the partition of Syria. Someone once opened my eyes by saying “When Putin and Lavrov are talking about their American partners, we should take them at their word.”

    • Agree: Spisarevski
    • Replies: @Randal
    , @polskijoe
  6. yurivku says:

    Third, there are presidential elections coming up in Russia and the Americans are still desperately holding on to their sophomoric notion that if they create trouble for Putin (sanctions or body bags from Syria) they can somehow negatively impact his popularity in Russia (in reality they achieve the opposite effect, but they are too dull and ignorant to realize that).

    No, they have succeeded a little. Many of us are blaming Putin for he did not react on these hostile actions from ZUS. I in particular, time where people believed in Clever Plan of Putin (Хитрый план Путина = ХПП) is over. Now it looks as a weakness and lack of determination.

    But this will not get people to vote for US-oriented candidates, contrary it will upper the support of anti US forces.

    Step two: saturating Syria with mobile modern short/middle range air defenses

    Yes. Putin should at least supply SAA with modern antiaircraft solutions (Pantsir-S1, S-300, S-400, MANPADs). But I’m afraid he won’t. The story of Putin’s counteraction to ZUS hostility it’s a story of retreats (sanctions, diplomacy, … now Syria) with only couple of exclusions, the main is Crimea and the second is the very beginning of Syrian battle.

    So far the Russian response to this developing strategy has been a rather a passive one and the current escalation strongly suggests that a new approach might be needed.

    Yes, and it should be done immediately.

  7. yurivku says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I’d hate to hear of more innocent civilians killed on commercial flights as with MH17

    Nobody wants it, but ZUS already did enough for making that possible almost anywhere.
    It’s time to fight back. It’s the only language ZUS understands.

  8. Randal says:

    Frankly, I am starting to believe that the Empire has decided to attempt a partial “reconquista” of Syria, even Macron is making some noises about striking the Syrians to “punish” them for their use of (non-existing) chemical weapons.

    This is my own impression as well, and Saker’s suggested response of beefing up and unleashing Syrian air defences to deny Israel and the US their current free (albeit illegal) access to the use of air power over Syria seems the most sensible one. It’s not without costs and risks, but the alternative is letting the US and its proxies continue to get away with murder (both literally and figuratively).

    Whether Putin has the bottle for it remains to be seen.

    There is a counter-intuitive but in many ways an ideal solution for Russia to counter the US invasion of Syria: involve the Turks.
    …..
    The other obvious risk is that any anti-Kurdish operation can turn into yet another partition of Syria, this time by the Turks.

    Yes, the more Turkish involvement in Syrian territory is encouraged by the Russians and Syrian government, the harder it will be to get them out afterwards.

    At the moment it appears the Turkish/US relationship hangs by the thread of an informal separation of the Kurds in Afrin and Turkish operations against them from the Kurds further east and US backing for them. The US is desperately hoping the Turks will get bogged down in Afrin and that the fighting won’t spread to the eastern Kurdish controlled areas.

    The longer the fighting goes on and the more Turkish soldiers die in fighting in Afrin thanks to support from Kurds further east, the shakier that is likely to get. Alternatively, if Turkish plans for controlling and ethnically rebalancing Afrin become real, it might be the Kurds in the east who have to escalate. Either way works.

    The Turks are not interested in helping Assad or, for that matter, Putin and they don’t care what happens to Syria as long as *their* Kurdish problem is under control.

    Sadly this is far from the truth, it appears. Erdogan seems to have a real animus against Assad, based presumably on his muslim brotherhood sympathies versus Assad’s secularist approach, and if he can do the Syrian government harm he will do so.

    However, this does appear to be very much secondary in Turkish eyes (and therefore Erdogan’s eyes) to the existential threat posed by Kurdish nationalism. Erdogan and Turkey can and will swallow their dislike of Assad’s secularism if they have to. They cannot and will not swallow Kurdish nationalism.

  9. You know you’re making bad decisions when John Bolton praises them. From yesterday:

    “I’m willing to bet that U.S. forces had no clue there were ‘Russian mercenaries’ there, but nonetheless, if these press reports are true, it looks like Americans have killed Russians,” he pointed out, speculating that the incident was among the subjects discussed by President Donald Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin in their phone call over the weekend.

    “I have to say, the Russians—at least publicly so far—seem to have behaved responsibly, Bolton added. “They did admit they had ‘mercenaries,’ quote-unquote, there. They didn’t overreact to it. That’s about the best sign from Russia, frankly, I’ve seen in a long time.

  10. In fact, I believe the US-Turkish relationship is so bad and so one-sided that I see a Turkish attack on a Kurdish (or “good terrorist”) column/position with embedded US Special Forces far more likely than a US attack on a Turkish army column.

    They may be bad but NO, Turkey is not leaving NATO nor realistically moves towards Russia. Turks will continue to play with US but they inevitably will return “home” controlled for now by US. Erdogan plays his game and Russians are keenly aware of that.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  11. @Mr T

    Do you think the US may eventually end up in a Dien Bien Phu situation in Syria ?
    An isolated outpost dependent on air control, gradually being strangled by ground forces ?

    I am not Saker but you nailed it–this is precisely where it is all going.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Johnj
  12. Randal says:
    @Ma Laoshi

    That this has not happened would suggest that the Kremlin doesn’t *want* to do this–that for some reason, they are willing accomplices to the partition of Syria. Someone once opened my eyes by saying “When Putin and Lavrov are talking about their American partners, we should take them at their word.”

    Well, yes and no. It’s hardly as if providing the Syrians with the kind of air defences that will stand up to Israeli and US attacks is easy or cost-free. Quite the contrary – the response of both Israel and the US to attacks on their aircraft will undoubtedly be attacks on the air defences concerned, and likely very effective ones. There will be considerable costs of replacing destroyed equipment and retraining operators, let alone dealing with the political and diplomatic consequences of Russian operators (or “instructors”) getting killed. Russia will likely have to stand nose to nose with the superpower again, to deter outright open war against Syria. With the first shot down US plane much of the anti-war American political and public opinion will melt away, because Americans in general are infantile about things like that and can never accept that other people can hit them back even when the US government is pummeling them constantly. That’s “unprovoked aggression” for Americans. And who knows how Trump would react, since (as his missile murder of Syrians last year in response to some nasty photos demonstrated) he is pretty infantile himself..

    It’s not just a simple matter of giving them some stuff and declaring Syrian air space closed to Israelis and US aircraft.

    And motivation does come into it as well – Russia is not eager to fall out irrevocably with the Israelis. For that matter I think the Israelis would rather not fall out with the Russians openly. It’s the logic of the situation that is driving them in that direction regardless – the Israeli determination to overthrow Assad in order to pursue their obsessive aggression against Hezbollah and Iran, coming into collision with Russian determination to prevent another US-backed regime change of one of their remaining allies.

    No need for rather fanciful theories about secret Russian and US collusion to partition Syria – though it might well be that both come to believe that is necessary, being the best they each can get if neither ultimately can defeat the other.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Ma Laoshi
  13. @yurivku

    Yes. Putin should at least supply SAA with modern antiaircraft solutions (Pantsir-S1, S-300, S-400, MANPADs). But I’m afraid he won’t.

    It is a bit more complicated, OK–it is much more complicated than this. What most people miss here is the fact that “localization” of Syrian AD is already in progress. What is known for sure at this stage, February 2018:

    1. Syrian AD has been fully (I underscore–fully, that means not just voice commands, but all data-links, CEC–Cooperative Engagement Capability, EW “inclusion”, C3, the works etc.).

    2. The “Sale” of S-400 to Syria can easily be arranged by declaring of “contractual transfer” of S-400 in Masyaf.

    3. AD capabilities of Russia and Syria in the last 3-4 months grew significantly, to put it mildly. The capability is already there, as I wrote in the other thread–some photos from Syria confirm that there is a presence of Buk-M2 in Syria. This is enormously capable system. How many? Well, sure as hell not one.

    The build up is three and it is clear and confirmed. I doubt that this indicates any kind of “retreats”, “passivity” etc. Now comes the question like this: what happens when this whole AD thing lights up as a Christmas Tree with all of its EW and radar capability? Well, I can say only one thing–both Israeli AF and USAF assets will be grounded. Is it a time to do it today? NO. Why no–is a separate issue, wars are not fought by the grand gestures, they are fought for political objectives and political objective now is more than just Syria, however important, for Russia.

    • Replies: @yurivku
    , @yurivku
  14. Kirt says:

    Why don’t the Russians just pull out of Syria? This would have to wait until after the Russian elections, of course, and could be combined with upping the supply of weapons to Assad’s forces. Such a move would be bad for the Syrians, but nothing in the near future is going to be good for the Syrians since Israel and the US are determined to continue tormenting that poor country and not allowing it any respite from war in which to rebuild.

    But it would be good for the Russians and for the Iranians if they followed suit. The US, Israel and Turkey would be left with endless guerrilla wars against local factions as well as clashes among themselves – particularly involving Turkey. Russia would only lose a few overextended bases and could concentrate on its near abroad, which is a much more important Russian interest. I feel sorry for the Middle Eastern victims of US and Israeli aggression but at this time, I think Russia should concentrate on building itself up rather than getting stuck in another quagmire.

    • Replies: @Randal
  15. Randal says:
    @Kirt

    Why don’t the Russians just pull out of Syria?

    Because the very good reasons for getting involved there in the first place still apply.

    First, fighting jihadists in Syria is better than fighting them in the Caucasus with backing from victorious jihadis in Syria (as the Syrians suffered from having to fight victorious jihadist backing from Libya after the US and its European proxies “regime changed” that country into a jihadist-riddled chaotic realm of war).

    Second, because once the US has regime changed one country it doesn’t sit back and rest on its laurels – it transfers its efforts to the next one. In the end, aggression based like the US’s on a universalist ideology of world transformation cannot be appeased or ignored – it must be confronted or it will push further until it triumphs everywhere. It cannot do otherwise.

    • Replies: @Kirt
  16. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Well again clever plan of Putin … sorry Andrei, I have alot to say, but tonight I’m on phone, so I, probably, will, later. Now I just say – disagree. And not only me. Needless to say I’ll vote for Grudinin.

  17. Kirt says:
    @Randal

    Where exactly has the US triumphed recently? It’s one thing to change a regime, quite another to actually control a country and get something profitable out of it. And I don’t buy the argument that it is better to fight jihadists far away than close to home either with respect to the US or Russia. Better to fight on your own turf than on your enemy’s where you have to deal with long and vulnerable supply lines to distant and vulnerable bases against local forces which know the lay of the land and have the extra motivation of defending their own homes.

    • Replies: @Randal
  18. Randal says:
    @Kirt

    The US doesn’t need to control the places it regime changes to achieve its goals – reducing them to bloody chaos is perfectly sufficient for the purposes of those influencing US policy. The example you are asking for was given in my comment to which you were replying – Libya.

    As for whether it’s better to fight them over there than to fight them over here, clearly it depends upon the circumstances. For the US that case when it is made by neocon and militarist warmongers is usually a lie because the US is uniquely (albeit not completely) protected in its position of continental security, and attacks upon the US and its forces almost invariably stem entirely from prior US aggressive interventionism. Russia does not have that luxury, and furthermore Russia’s jihadist and other enemies are backed, pushed and enabled by the resources of the world’s only superpower, with military and “black” subversion budgets bigger than most countries’ entire state budgets.

    In the case of Syria, clearly Russia has the advantage of operating in cooperation with an existing legitimate government which evidently retains broad popular support. Given the tiny costs and trivial casualties sustained so far, it’s a long, long way from the “quagmire” you rather propagandistically tried to describe it as. So far, at any rate.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  19. @yurivku

    That’s exactly what the West would like you to do.

    Here is a hint why: Soviet Union was feared, Soviet Union was respected, Soviet Union always retaliated in kind, no one was messing with Soviet Union.
    Where is Soviet Union now?

    Please, think about it.

  20. Jackieeagle says: • Website

    So far little attention has been paid to the recent Putin-Bibi phone call, but what if Putin simply advised Bibi that he was adding S-400s and Pantsirs to the air defences of all bases where Russian personnel is operating?

  21. yurivku says:
    @Simpleguest

    You think you are clever, you think you are smart. I think differently, would you like to know what exactly? Think about it

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  22. Ma Laoshi says:
    @Randal

    Your point about the unpredictable costs of defending Syrian airspace is well taken. But “anti-war opinion” in the US — you’re kidding, right? Part of Trump’s genius, such as it is, is his realization that the anti-war sentiment of his base always was wafer-thin. Mostly, his deplorables didn’t like/trust somebody like Obama prosecuting what they felt were rightfully Republican wars–just like Democrats were immediately OK with Bush’s wars once Obama took over. Trump voters *like* the drumbeat against Iran because of religion, and against Venezuela because of “socialism”. Meanwhile, the Democrats never really moved on after Hillary and clamor for much, much more, while that Sanders fella–well at his age, who can really make out what he’s mumbling these days.

    Who can know the future, but there is another side to this: when The Donald and Bibi get a nice pile of dead bodies delivered to their doorstep, for the first time they’d be under pressure to explain to their voters what the hell they’re doing and supporting again in Syria. Of those two, only Trump could realistically carry out massive strikes on Syria militarily, but I doubt he could do it politically if the other side is willing to hit back hard.

    I disagree with your characterization of Trump’s missile strike. Yes I’ve read Hersh, but even if I trust him I certainly don’t trust his sources. Trump may or may not be an overage infant, but this was a US Government decision by ruthless, experienced generals, to do something kinetic and probe the adversary’s reaction. The absence of a sufficiently severe reaction contributed to the present mess.

    Yes the Russian-Israeli relationship is delicate, but Israelis can play Middle Eastern theater with the best of them, and it shouldn’t be taken at face value. They like to bomb Syria when they can get away with it; when you stop them they’ll yell “Holocaust, holocaust” as they always do, and then they’ll move on. Longer term, Israelis have to learn that their security is linked to the security of other peoples in the region, and a comprehensive agreement should be negotiated. Jews hate this idea of mutuality for racial reasons, so they must be forced to accept it.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  23. @yurivku

    As a Russian, I agree and the only reason Putin took Crimea was to avoid paying political price for the loss of Ukraine, i.e. save himself from being overthrown. At the end of the day, this regime’s main (only) concern is self-preservation – I think most of us can see this now.

    • Replies: @Miro23
    , @Vojkan
  24. @yurivku

    Here is a superb essay by Patrick Bahzad at Colonel Lang’s Blog. I think you may find it interesting. BTW, operational summary done on the superb level by Patrick.

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2018/02/seven-years-into-the-civil-war-what-is-left-of-the-syrian-arab-army-.html

  25. @Simpleguest

    Soviet Union was voluntarily abolished by its own leaders and people, who were both convinced at the time that the West was their friend. I know it sounds crazy when I put it this way, but that’s exactly what happened!

    It was a stupid, left-wing system that died because it was left-wing and stupid, not because it was too assertive on the international stage.

  26. Vidi says:
    @Randal

    The US doesn’t need to control the places it regime changes to achieve its goals – reducing them to bloody chaos is perfectly sufficient for the purposes of those influencing US policy. The example you are asking for was given in my comment to which you were replying – Libya.

    The U.S. needs to profit from its military excursions, which means controlling the places it invades. (And stealing them blind, the usual modus operandum of an empire.) An unprofitable military will bankrupt the country.

    The U.S. is rich enough to survive a few disasters like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, but not indefinitely.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @utu
    , @RobinG
    , @Biff
  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    It may be already happening. Looks like Russia got whooped much worse than they admitted – http://www.businessinsider.com/russia-mercenaries-testing-us-lost-300-troops-reports-2018-2?amp%3Butm_medium=referral&utm_source=quora

    • Replies: @bluedog
  28. Cyrano says:
    @Vidi

    Thank God U.S. is not Germany or Russia. If it was the Germans or the Russians spending that kind of money on the military, they would have taken over the solar system by now at least. Instead, U.S. can’t win control even over a lousy earth. So much for the greatest military.

  29. FB says:

    Ok…so there’s a lot to unpack here…starting with the idea that Russia is being increasingly bitchslapped by the US in Syria and is doing nothing about it…

    This article proceeds on the assumption that everything we know about the US air attack on Pro-Syrian forces…which included some Russian military contractors…is in plain sight…

    This is not the case…information from any battlefield is tightly controlled by all sides…with the very minimum of facts made available…and that after a certain ‘pause’ period in order for the respective sides to craft their ‘official’ stories…

    When we examine some details that may not be generally known…it may become clear that the US strike was one of desperation…not provocation…

    For one thing…the idea of the SDF as some monolithic force is pure farce…like any US-quilted ‘coalition’ this patchwork is extremely fragile…consisting of Kurds, some local Arab tribes that previously supported ISIS…and almost certainly some valuable ISIS commanders and top fighters…

    Most important here…there are also other Arab tribes from the Euphrates Valley area that are enemies of both the Kurds and the Arab tribes that have gone over to the SDF…

    One such tribe is the Al Bakara tribe which reportedly suffered heavily from the US bombardment…

    ‘…the Arab al-Bakara tribe announced in an official statement that dozens of its sons were killed in the US-led coalition airstrikes on the SAA…

    Al-Bakara also vowed in its official statement to continue its fight against ISIS, the US-led coalition and the US-backed Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) and described the three forces as “occupiers” and “terrorists”…’

    We recall that the Al-Bakara tribe defected from the SDF last November…

    It’s also known that the oil and gas fields are still in play…and not firmly in the grasp of the US and their Kurdish proxies…

    It’s not clear what exactly is going on…but there have been rumors of the pro-Syrian tribes cutting a deal with the SAA and these tribal militias to walk in and take over…this in fact may have been what was under way when the US decided to strike…

    In other words there is a lot of stuff happening there that is flying under the public radar…

    If the US had to resort to an air massacre in order to keep those energy fields from falling out of its grasp…then that is only going to make things worse for them in the long run…as usual they are slowly but surely making enemies out of everybody…

    Then there is this author’s simplistic take on Russia using the Turks as a battering ram against the US…even going so far as fanciful thinking about Turks targeting US forces…

    Again this is a gross oversimplification that is also dangerous…

    The Turks have their own very dangerous ideas about Afrin and that entire Northeast corner of Syria…where they already have a sizable presence after last year’s ‘Euphrates Shield’ operation…

    Erdogan speaks openly about taking that entire region and ‘giving it back to its rightful owners’…

    Those rightful owners being the three million Syrian jihadi sympathizers who fled Syria as the SAA routed their strongholds…

    Putting all those ‘civilians’ there under Turkish protection amounts to the long-sought northern Syria Safe Haven that the US has also been talking up since practically the beginning…

    This would be even more catastrophic for Syria’s territorial integrity than even the US land grab east of the Euphrates…which has no long term chance for survival…as one commenter here aptly drew a comparison with the Dien Bien Phu situation in Vietnam…

    So the idea of the Turks overrunning Afrin is very dangerous…there are constant reports and rumors that the Afrin Kurds are on the brink of coming to terms with the SAA so the SAA can come in and proclaim Syrian sovereignty over the area…

    In this scenario…backed by Russian diplomatic and military guarantees…the Turks would have no choice but to retreat…their raison d’etre would be gone if the Kurdish Afrin is in the Syrian fold…

    Right now Tillerson is in Ankara and you can be sure that there is lots of talk going on…for the US there is no problem with the Turks taking over Afrin and setting up their ‘safe zone’…

    The only problem is how to make this not look like a total sellout of the Afrin Kurds…

    So let’s be realistic here…Erdogan is nobody’s attack dog but his own…and he even has common cause with the US for that ‘safe zone’…

    The only question is when the Afrin Kurds are going to come to their senses and let the SAA take over…with Russian guarantee of course…

    Right now they seem to be willing to try to hold out but they are getting pasted pretty bad…they may even have some silly notions that the US will make Turkey back off…as if…

    So for the Russians it’s a waiting game…there is no need to panic…and even less need to paint events as Russians turning the other cheek…

    Certainly we can assume with pretty good confidence that a some US specops and ‘advisers’ have been wiped out in Idlib during the big SAA and Tiger Forces advance there in recent weeks…not to mention the deadly Russian precision strikes after the Su25 downing…

    • Replies: @Anon
  30. How does the US supply the troops in northeast Syria?

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  31. Eagle Eye says:

    OT but perhaps interesting that the Maidan operation is seeing more sunlight. Not new on this site, but we are now seeing the MSM getting in on the act, with exposure through two prestigious sources (WSJ journalist writing in Times Literary Supplement) as detailed by Peter Hitchens in :

    Now it starts to come out – Kiev’s 2014 ‘revolution’ was achieved by ‘heavily-armed thugs’, many of them ‘neo-Nazi’

    For some years now I have been pointing out that the supposedly wondrous ‘People Power’ revolution in Kiev in February 2014 was in fact a violent putsch, backed by foreign powers and involving some pretty nasty elements.

    I get a lot of mockery and spite for this.

    Well, I would just like to draw readers’ attention to a powerful letter in this week’s Times Literary Supplement (TLS), over the name of David Roman, a Wall Street Journal reporter.

    You may access it (partially) here:

    https://www.the-tls.co.uk/articles/private/letters-to-the-editor-162/

    It begins (in response to a book review in an earlier edition of the TLS) ;

    ‘As a Wall Street Journal correspondent who helped to cover the revolution and its aftermath, I must correct the impression left by her review that a courageous popular response to armed repression led to victory for the protesters. On the contrary, on the last days of February 2014, armed thugs – many, if not most, heavily armed far-right and neo-Nazi activists from western Ukraine – stormed Maidan square, killing and capturing police officers and forcing the hand of a government that, as well as being unpopular, was bankrupt and diplomatically isolated’.

    http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/2018/02/now-it-starts-to-come-out-kievs-2014-revolution-was-achieved-by-heavily-armed-thugs-many-of-them-neo.html

    • Agree: RobinG
  32. @yurivku

    I am sympathetic to what Russia is trying to achieve.
    I also happen to think that the best thing, for the moment, is for you to stick to your president.
    There’s nothing more to it.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @yurivku
  33. bluedog says:
    @Anonymous

    Strange I thought you were intelligent enough to separate fact from propaganda rather than perpetuating it,I guess I was wrong for that’s already been outed as nothing but propaganda….

  34. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Simpleguest

    Such arguments are simple-minded: Individualism, loyalty, and consumerism are but a few of the values deriving from bourgeois culture used to blind the average Russian from the actual poverty of the class that exploit them. For the poor and working classes, these values work against our best interests. That we practice them without understanding only serves to keep us subjected to domination by capitalist classes.

    An essential aspect of revolutionary nationalist struggle is to identify and reject bourgeois values that perpetuate our oppression, exploitation and degradation, and though sabotaged previously by capitalists, many Russians are realizing that progress toward communism can only be impeded and false consciousness by current actors will not blind the working masses. It is important has to realize we have only one choice: to strengthen its revolutionary consciousness, to reject the temptations of becoming more bourgeois and the natural concerns of its class mentality, to identify itself with the working classes and not to oppose the normal development of the process of revolution. This means that in order to truly fulfill the role in the national liberation struggle, the revolutionary petty bourgeoisie MUST BE CAPABLE OF COMMITTING SUICIDE AS A CLASS IN ORDER TO BE REBORN AS REVOLUTIONARY WORKERS, completely identified with the deepest aspirations of the people to which they belong!

    • Replies: @JohnnyRVF
  35. @Felix Keverich

    True, the Soviet Union was voluntarily dismantled, but I think that the main contributing factor for its demise were its internal demographics. I will leave it at that, since this is not the topic of our discussion.

    Returning to present day Russian Federation, it is much weaker entity compared to the Soviet Union, solely based on its much smaller population.

    As I replied to “yurivky” earlier, I am sympathetic to Russia and I think it’s best that they, for the time being, stick to their president. That’s all.

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
  36. Then, go ahead and ruin your country, once again.

    • Replies: @Simpleguest
  37. @Simpleguest

    This was addressed to Anonimus #35.

  38. El Dato says:
    @Anonymous

    Shopped pics or GTFO!

    Yeah, I know. The US Wehrmacht already killed over 9000 Russkies in one sortie etc. etc.

  39. It is taking too long for Trump and Putin to realize that the only sane solution to the Syria mess is a joint US/ Russian invasion of Israel. It would probably take 12 hours to roll up the IDF and hang Netanyahu, if that long.

    We must steel ourselves in our resolve to settle this business.

    • Agree: renfro, Cloak And Dagger
    • LOL: yurivku
    • Replies: @redmudhooch
  40. Hafez you fool! What did you leave behind?

    If you had instituted a strict 2-child-per-couple & free abortion-choice and your son kept that rule in the 2010s there wouldn’t have been 21 million “Syrians”. There might have been only 12 – 15 million Syrians in 2011.

    In 2010 your nation would have a GDP per capita of around 4/5000 USD with an unemployment of around 10% – 15% and 2.2 child per women.

    When your son took over in 2000, his government would have enjoy much more legitimacy and that would have make room for strong reforms leading to a booming decade right around 2010.

    Or you could have learned from the South-Koreans started deep reform right around 1985/1990. Then your son would currently be treated like the foreigners treat the Vietnamese/Indonesian leadership – courted by all major-powers and friends with all middle-powers.

    Your nation’s GDP-per-capita would even rival that of Turkeys with around 8/10000USD and an unemployment of around 5% and fertility of 1.8 child per woman in 2010.

    The Isrealis would think twice taking on a Syrian Armed Force, which would enjoy a budget of 3-5 billion USD per year.

    Look even the mighty Chinese think twice about taking on the puny Vietnamese forces, who have 4,5 billion USD.

    Hafez I forgive you for Hama, but fate & historians will never forgive you and other 20th century-leaders, who refused to enforce a strict family-planning and didn’t allow free abortion.

    You nation, Congo-Kinshasa and Yemen are first nations to wrecked by Young Angry Men and foreign vultures. Many others will follow.

    At least some of the foreign vultures are being swamped by Young Angry Men from the countries, the vultures tear apart.

    Who knew the Confucian century was sparked in an abortion-clinic in Busan, became a blaze in a family-planning office in Chengdu and became an undenialable truth in a condom-factory near Haiphong.

    It’s easy to be remembered as a great statesman. Just shed Young Angry Men’s blood! It’s easy when these men are still 8 weeks old fetuses!

  41. @Twodees Partain

    Agreed, it becomes more obvious every day who is the problem, but its not just Israel as a country.
    The MIC, Wall St, International Corporations, Banksters, Big Pharma, NGOs, Think Tanks, Foundations, Institutes, Education system, AIPAC, ALL Foreign Lobbies, Zionists, Christian Zionists, MSM, I could go on and on……….The CABAL!
    Geez Loise the swamp is deep….
    I start to think it is hopeless sometimes, but then I remember that the truth will always come out, GOOD always overcomes evil, eventually.
    People always ask the military guys “what keeps them up at night?” I will tell you that the TRUTH is what keeps them up at night, and Americans coming together to defeat them, that is why they try so damn hard to divide us, to make us hate each other…
    Thats all they have, lies and hate, and we, as Americans, and as human beings, can overcome that, that is one thing that they CAN”T control, unless we allow them to.
    Keep your head up, and help spread the truth, talk to everyone you know, and go to other websites and pass on your knowledge. We will win. We are winning, you can tell that they are in panic mode.

  42. @Simpleguest

    Returning to present day Russian Federation, it is much weaker entity compared to the Soviet Union, solely based on its much smaller population.

    Are you serious? Russia is much weaker entity because most Uzbeks now live outside of its borders? LMAO

    It is certainly a stronger country than Iran, which successfully endured confrontation with the entire Western world for decades. Russian leaders do not need to cower in fear of US.

  43. utu says:
    @Vidi

    The U.S. is rich enough to survive a few disasters like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, but not indefinitely.

    Disasters? Everything went according to the plan. Not the plan you have read in the newspapers. The real plan.

    • Agree: RobinG, Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Vidi
  44. RobinG says:
    @Vidi

    “The U.S. needs to profit from its military excursions…”

    No, it just needs to stop anyone else from profiting. Currently, the prime target for denial of resources is China, but…..

    “Historically, Saudi Arabia has been seen as a pivotal country in the United States’ Middle East energy strategies, which formed a core template of Cold War-era politics to keep the former Soviet Union out of the region.” M.K. Bhadrakumar|

    Not to mention depressing the nations it regime changes or invades.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  45. “In the case of the downing of the SU-25, no overt accusations have been made, but many experts have stated that the altitude at which the SU-25 was hit strongly suggests a rather modern MANPAD of a type not typically seen in Syria.”

    There is audio evidence at this link:

    http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/18216/russian-su-25-frogfoot-attack-jet-shot-down-in-syria

    The last video in that article, after: This video may show the MANPADS launch:

    The missile is launched, and a voice gets excited as the missile locks on to the aircraft’s heat, and he starts chanting “got him… got him… got him” in American English.

    How long until Russian manpads show up in Afghanistan and Iraq to down American aircraft?

    • Replies: @utu
  46. oscar says:

    if us arms isis and al nusra what would happen if taliban got surge weapons from an unknown player, usa would not have bandwidth

    also russians should stop obsessing with “ukronazis”let them have territories as compensation for russian shabas goim complicity in the judeo communist massacre of millions white ukranian christians desecalate stupid war populate eastern russia instead

    • Replies: @Byrresheim
  47. FB says:

    ‘…The other option for the Russians would be to offer upgrades (software and missile) to the existing Syrian air defense systems, especially their road-mobile 2K12 Kub and 9K37 Buk systems…’

    Another commenter noted @14 that Syrian air defenses have already been upgraded…

    We are not privy to what exactly has been supplied but it worked well enough to take down an IAF F16 that invaded Syria’s airspace…

    Reportedly several more IAF aircraft were damaged in the missile volley…including an F15 [the big guy] which was forced to make an emergency landing…

    The Israelis were decisively beaten back…no small feat considering the proficiency of their pilots…who spend untold hours training specifically for these kinds of missions…

    The talk about Kubs and Pantsirs is not really relevant here…these are short-range point defense systems designed mainly to protect ground forces from air attack…

    They do offer the advantage of mobility…and we recall that a Pantsir downed a Turkish F4 in 2012…

    But a lone ’60s era Phantom is not the same as a massed Israeli attack that is going to make use of AWACS [Grumman E2 Hawkeye] as well as airborne jamming and standoff missiles targeting SAM radars [HARMs]…

    Considering the size of this attack…a full squadron strength…this was a full-on attack that no doubt used all of the above capabilities and was meticulously planned and trained…and they got their ass kicked…

    So what’s going on…?

    Clearly there was some heavy duty air defense on display here…

    Let’s break this down…the S200 is the Big Guy in the Syrian arsenal…despite its age [service entry 1967]…this rocket is a beast…

    Until very recently…with the introduction of the 400 km range 40N6 in 2015 [the big gun in the S400]…the S200 still held the world record for range at 160 nautical miles [300 km]…

    Its maximum speed of 2.5 km per second is actually faster than the S400 rockets at 2 km/s…this due mainly to its liquid fuel engine which will always outperform solid fuel rockets of a given weight…due to their higher specific impulse…

    So the S200 is a formidable rocket…

    The other key component of a SAM system is the radar…or radars…

    The legacy engagement radar on the S200 is the 5N62 Square Pair…a mechanically steered unit that can be broken down and transported…but does not really qualify as ‘mobile’…

    However…as the Russians developed their third and fourth generations SAMs…they came up with much more powerful and mobile radars…the S300 replaced the Square Pair with the 5N63 ‘Flap Lid’…which is a phased array radar that scans electronically in elevation…and rotates mechanically for azimuth…

    ‘…The 5N63 was a huge generational leap in technology from the…Square Pair mechanically steered and scanned engagement radars on preceding V-PVO SAMs.

    With electronic beam steering, very low sidelobes and a narrow pencil beam mainlobe, the… phased array is more difficult to detect and track by an aircraft’s warning receiver when not directly painted by the radar, and vastly more difficult to jam…’

    The 5N63 and its successors are fully mobile for five minute shoot and scoot…its mobile command post has the capability to control S200 batteries…

    This radar or even the newest version 92N2E Grave Stone used on the S400 would be a formidable pairing with the mighty S200 rocket…

    Clearly something is going on with Syrian air defenses…there is no question that they beat back a very strong Israeli assault…and inflicted what amounts to unacceptable damage for a single operation of this size…

    It is also worth noting that the human element is even more important than the hardware…always has…always will be…

    ‘…RULE 1: Weapons are not the most important ingredient in winning wars.
    People come first; ideas are second and hardware is only third…’

    Pierre Sprey…designer of the A10 and F16…[page 101...]

    ‘…After 1973’s crushing 80-to-1 victory by Israelis flying F-4s and Mirages against Arab pilots flying MiGs, the commander of the Israeli Air Force (IAF), Gen. Mordecai Hod, famously remarked that the outcome would have been the same if both sides had swapped planes.

    He was exactly correct, simply because the IAF had the most rigorous system in the world for filtering out all but the most gifted pilots. In every war, it’s the few superb pilots that win the air battle.

    A tiny handful of such pilots have dominated every air-to-air battleground since World War I: roughly 10 percent of all pilots (the “hawks”) score 60 percent to 80 percent of the dogfight kills; the other 90 percent of pilots (“doves”) are the fodder for the hawks of the opposing side. Technical performance differences between opposing fighter planes pale in comparison…’

    ‘…Submarine warfare is strikingly similar: the best 10 percent of the skippers account for the majority of the tonnage sunk…’

    Sprey could have added SAM crews to that list…

    The 250′th Air Defense Missile Brigade…headed by Colonel Zoltan Dani…scored all three Serb kills in the Nato air war against Yugoslavia…

    This unit took out not only a ‘stealth’ F117 Nighthawk flown by Lt. Colonel Dale Zelko…but heavily damaged another F117 that staggered back to Aviano but never flew again…and also downed the F16 of then Lt. Colonel David Goldfein…now General Goldfein and USAF Chief of Staff…

    Here is Zelko’s canopy in the Belgrade Aviation Museum…

    And here is the Goldfein trophy…at same location…

    So for all the hoopla about the Russians needing to quickly sell S300s and S400s to Syria…there is much more to consider…the Serbs did just fine with completely ancient equipment…one brigade was a ‘hawk’…

    Judging by the beating the Syrian air defenses laid on the Israeli raiders…it is almost certain that the specific issues of equipment upgrades…and more important…crew training has made some major leaps and bounds…

    • Replies: @Paranam Kid
    , @Eagle Eye
  48. Vidi says:
    @utu

    Disasters? Everything went according to the plan. Not the plan you have read in the newspapers. The real plan.

    I doubt the “real plan” was to give Afghanistan back to the Taliban, and give Iran extra influence in Iraq and Syria, which is what is happening now, in spades.

    So you can stop fooling yourself, Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya were all disasters. Expensive disasters, in both blood and treasure. More of these will bankrupt the Empire.

    You may think it’ll be cheap to foment chaos. But that is so only at first, because conflicts have a habit of escalating. If the U.S. gets sucked into the Middle Eastern quagmire, as Israel plainly wants, things will get very, very expensive — and probably terminal for the Empire.

    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
  49. Vidi says:
    @RobinG

    No, it just needs to stop anyone else from profiting. Currently, the prime target for denial of resources is China, but…..

    You may fool yourself into thinking that chaos and denial will be cheap. But you’ll be going counter to the interests of the countries in question — who want peace and prosperity — so eventually the U.S. will have to step in directly, and that’ll be expensive and probably terminal for the Empire.

    Not to mention depressing the nations it regime changes or invades.

    You aren’t even pretending to care for the people in those countries. See how morally depraved the U.S. has become.

  50. utu says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    How long until Russian manpads show up in Afghanistan and Iraq to down American aircraft?

    Good question. There should have been there long time ago.

  51. yurivku says:
    @Simpleguest

    Ok, I’m sorry for being rude. Excuse me.

    I also happen to think that the best thing, for the moment, is for you to stick to your president.

    But please let me deside myself where to stick to. BTW I already mentioned that I’m not Putin’s supporter.

  52. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It is a bit more complicated, OK–it is much more complicated than this. What most people miss here is the fact that “localization” of Syrian AD is already in progress. What is known for sure at this stage, February 2018:

    Well, it is complicated. And I said – “should at least supply “. There is also an option to hit ourself with S-400 … those aircrafts which are present in Syria illegally and which are bombing our ally.

    Now comes the question like this: what happens when this whole AD thing lights up as a Christmas Tree with all of its EW and radar capability? Well, I can say only one thing–both Israeli AF and USAF assets will be grounded.

    Just dreams. I think all the SAA has is S-200 old complex and probably some obsolete BUKs.
    Otherwise not a single Israelis jet was grounded, but many of those.
    What about S-200, I was taught of their structure when was studying in Baumanka (Moscow High Technical School named after Bauman) and in 1982-1984 I was called to Soviet Army and serving as an officer in S-200 selfchecking division. It was top secret this time, but now it’s obsolet. It has range of 200km, could use nuk warhead, an active homing head and liquid-propellant engine.

    Active homing makes it difficult to use now when effecive reflection square of aircrafts decreased significantly. And I beleive it’s not very effective.
    So why not to supply S-300 and new BUK M3 and Pantsir ?
    It’s lack of political will, I think.

    Is it a time to do it today? NO. Why no–is a separate issue, wars are not fought by the grand gestures, they are fought for political objectives and political objective now is more than just Syria, however important, for Russia.

    But I think YES. Moreover it should be done ASAP until too late. ZUS getting more and more insane and can limit our options to just one – full scale war with using ALL types of weapons.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Andrei Martyanov
  53. yurivku says:
    @Ma Laoshi

    Trump may or may not be an overage infant, but this was a US Government decision by ruthless, experienced generals, to do something kinetic and probe the adversary’s reaction. The absence of a sufficiently severe reaction contributed to the present mess.

    Exactly

    Longer term, Israelis have to learn that their security is linked to the security of other peoples in the region, and a comprehensive agreement should be negotiated.

    Agree.
    And everybody should know (including brave moron Macron) that their actions, including stupid words, should be payed for. In full scale.

  54. @Anonymous

    Of course he will, when he will be so depressed that the only good option open to him will be getting roasted himself. But it is indeed more comforting for certain people to believe in fairy tales of the like you spin here.

  55. @FB

    Wow FB, that’s quite an analysis. Your reasoning makes sense, but I am left with 1 question: why has it taken the Syrians 35 years to down their 1st Israel fighter jet? If, like you say, people and ideas come 1st and 2nd respectively and can do a lot with even outdated equipment like the Serbs did, then why only now in the case of Syria? Surely the Syrians are not any less capable than the Serbs, esp. having had the Russians on their soil for much longer than this war.

    • Replies: @FB
  56. FB says:
    @Paranam Kid

    Couple of reasons…

    First…the Israeli pilots are some of the best around…as Sprey mentioned in that snippet I quoted…

    They are a tough adversary…they train all the time against missions like this…they have had opportunity to train against earlier S300 SAMs…since Greece [a Nato member] has had the s300 for 20 years [obviously a earlier generation not fully representative of current gear]…as do some other countries like India which cooperate with Israel…[Indian pilots are said to be very tough also...and they fly the latest Russian equipment like the big Flankers...]

    Second…the Syrian air defenses are just now coming back to life…at the beginning of the war when Syria was losing…they actually a lost a lot of AD equipment and personnel…

    Even before the war…the Syrians were not known as either great pilots or air defense crews…

    The Serbs were on a different level than the Syrians…they battled all of Nato to a draw for 78 days against a 1,000 plane armada…

    ‘…Serbian combat power remained substantially intact. The number of sorties generated by the NATO forces, particularly the United States Air Force, left them short of spare parts and munitions, required increased maintenance, and a force reduced in effective size due to the decreased fatigue life of many aircraft.

    This virtual attrition, with little relative destruction of the opposing forces, has shown that the Serbian military strategy was successful…’

    I have talked at length about the Serb air war as well as military pilot training in other comments…

    The Syrians are now presumably getting top notch training from the Russians…we note that Israel has not tried to attempt another raid into Syrian airspace since that spanking…their so-called retaliatory strike after the F16 downing was careful not to stray very deep into Syrian airspace…if at all…

    My point about the hardware was that those old Soviet systems were and still are very capable in the right hands…

    The rockets [missiles] have kinematic performance…ie speed and agility…that are generally speaking a match for what you get today in the S300/400…

    The big improvement has been in radars…but like I pointed out those new radars can control the older rockets…

    Another point worth noting is that the S200 rockets, while formidable, are launched from stationary emplacements…however it should be noted that attacks on air defenses target the radio emitters…ie the radars…not the launchers which give off no signal to home in on…and usually those launch sites are very well camouflaged…

    Those new radars from the S300/400 generation that can control the S200 rockets are fully shoot and scoot mobile…so the SAM survivability is greatly increased in the face of enemy SEAD [suppression of enemy air defense...]

    We recall that Israel was making big noises about taking out all of Syria’s air defenses…and look what happened when they tried…

    Long story short Syria was a patsy for the tough Israeli Air Force for a long time…both before and after the war…but clearly this is now changing…

    You can be sure that in military circles in Tel Aviv, Washington and other Nato capitals…there is much consternation going on right now about what happened in the skies over Syria last week…

    • Replies: @Kotlin
  57. FB says:
    @yurivku

    Here’s what you said about the S200…

    ‘…It has range of 200km, could use nuk warhead, an active homing head and liquid-propellant engine.

    Active homing makes it difficult to use now when effective reflection square of aircrafts decreased significantly. And I believe it’s not very effective…’

    Everything you said is wrong…

    Somehow you missed my #48…

    I already mentioned the S200 exceptional range…300 km…and kinematic performance [2500 meter per second]…faster than any of the S400 missiles…and more range than anything but the biggest 40N6 S400 missile which was introduced only in 2015…

    The S200 was a remarkable technological achievement for the time and it stayed in service with Soviet and Russian PVO [air defense] until the 1990s…

    The semi-active seeker in the nose of the missile [not fully active as you state] was a huge advance over the previous generations S75 and S125 SAMs which had no on-board seeker and used command-link guidance from the ground radar [battery engagement radar]…

    This type of seeker is still used in the most recent generation of SAM missiles…so your comments about not working against aircraft with reduced radar cross section are quite silly…

    Here is what the S200 seeker looks like…

    The seeker radar also used what was then a breakthrough technique called continuous wave frequency modulation [CWFM]…instead of pulsed waves…this required sophisticated computing power for that era…

    CWFM is also much more difficult to interfere with and therefore more resistant to electronic countermeasures…this radar technology is still in use in the newest generation systems…but was unique to the S200 at that era…

    With the on-board radar seeker…the chance of hitting the target is greatly increased…that’s a fact…

    The reason is that the seeker sends target location signals back to the ground-based engagement radar via downlink transmitter…

    This type of system is called track via missile…or TVM…

    ‘…The TVM system relays to the ground station radar data produced by the missile seeker, and offers better jam resistance and accuracy against a pure command link guidance package, especially as the missile nears the target…’

    That’s why TVM is universally used today…clearly you have no idea what you are talking about…

    As I already mentioned…the S200 batteries can be controlled by the newer phased array radars from the S300/400…

    The S200 also carried on board a sophisticated three-axis inertial autopilot…another technology milestone for that era…the 5A43 autopilot is employed to fly the missile along a programmed flight profile without the characteristic energy wasting deviations typical of the earlier S-75 and S-125 designs…

    As for the liquid fuel engine…this actually has some significant advantages…

    The Isayev 5D67 engine is a fantastic engine in the Russian tradition from legendary designer A.M. Isayev…

    It could be throttled from 30 percent to 100 percent power…something that’s impossible with solid rocket motors…which are basically just a big firecracker…ie the casing is stuffed with solid propellant and once it starts to burn there is no way to control it…the hot gas exits the nozzle out the bottom and that’s it…

    For an interceptor missile the ability to throttle is important…a target aircraft will try to evade a pursuing missile by out-turning it…

    The aircraft can bleed off energy in the turn and tighten its turn increasingly until the missile is no longer able to keep up such a tight turn…

    Turning radius increase with speed…so if your missile can slow down by throttling down the engine…you decrease the turn radius and that target airplane cannot get away from you…

    It is too bad that contemporary interceptor missile design has switched completely to solid rockets…the only real advantage being ease of use…they are basically foolproof…

    But a liquid rocket will always have a performance advantage…ie a higher specific impulse…

    Look at the speeds of some interceptors…the S200 reaches 2.5 km/s…S400 only 2 km/s…the SM3 Block 1A/B reaches 3 km/s mainly because it carries no warhead…ie it is hit to kill interceptor…

    The S200 carries a 217 kg warhead…that’s nearly 500 lb…without that warhead the S200 would reach nearly 4 km/s…[I would have to work out the exact math...]

    Any way you look at it the S200 was a fantastic achievement for its time…especially the rocket…which in my view is still as good as anything out there today…

    By networking these S200 batteries with the latest Russian radars…which are total beasts…those Syrian S200s are very potent weapons indeed…especially in the right hands…

    • Replies: @Cloak And Dagger
  58. @yurivku

    Just dreams. I think all the SAA has is S-200 old complex and probably some obsolete BUKs.

    1.SAA has a significant number of Pantsir-S1.
    2. Buk, especially BukM1 and especially M2 are NOT obsolete–these are thoroughly modern systems but what you meant was probably Kub systems, which SAA also does have–those are obsolete.

    https://southfront.org/syrian-air-defense-forces-buk-surface-to-air-missile-system-photo/

    3. S-200 is an old and obsolete complex yet, it did a job of shooting down IAF F-16, as did old Soviet S-125 which downed F-117 in Yougoslavia.

    4. REAL, which is now confirmed, integration of Syrian AD into Russian AD makes, considering the most difficult part of ANY air-defense operation–tracking, targeting, lock-on, firing solution, much-much easier.

    But I think YES. Moreover it should be done ASAP until too late.

    Wars are not fought like this. Otherwise Red Army wouldn’t win at Stalingrad and Kursk. Grandiose gestures and instant gratification from “giving them hell”–is not a viable strategy. In fact, it is a road to defeat.

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  59. @The Cleaner

    Through Iraq or Jordan. By land or air.

  60. polskijoe says:
    @Ma Laoshi

    You may be right (who knows).

    Syria used to be controlled by France/UK wasnt it? (dont know much about it).
    Both France and UK are still mini imperialist minded. But generally the US is the king of that.

    Perhaps Syria will split into three?
    a)Israel-US
    b)Turkey
    c)Syria-Russia-Iran?

    that would effectlively be a win for Greater Israel. If Putin is agreeing with this that would be sad.
    the Brits/US want Iran too. Israel wants to destroy Iran.
    throw in Lebanon, Jordan, and plans move forward.

    Atm a heavily conventional strike on Israel would destroy it.
    But give them much more land, and they move to become a power.

  61. polskijoe says:
    @Felix Keverich

    I agree, the largest reason the SU fell was because of certain leaders inside the SU who want it.
    They thought the West would be friends.

    The game was called “convergence”. The same thing Lenin and Trotsky wanted.
    West and Russia join into one. However, Lenin and Trotsky were opposed by Anglo Tory imperialists.
    but supported by Fabian Socialists, and Jewish capitalists.

    Stalin prevented this. And he was the reason the Cold War started. He rejected the Baruch Plan.

    I think SU economy was actually not so bad (inside the USSR, not satelites),
    but a little too much spending on military.

    • Replies: @El Dato
  62. Now we hear of Russian casualties in the US raid on a Syrian column (along with widely exaggerated claims of “hundreds” of killed Russians)… Killing Russians “on the margins”, so to speak, either with plausible deniability or, alternatively, killing Russians private contractors is much safer and thus far more tempting option.

    Lies! Russophobic propaganda! We (that is, Martyanov) know thatmost likely, there were no real Russian casualties.

    So when is Martyanov going to call out The Saker for being “an ignorant amateur” who “doubles down on his pseudo-military BS and continued to push his agenda which is Russophobic“?

    • Replies: @El Dato
    , @Anonymous
  63. @Simpleguest

    Soviet union is not around for different reason directly opposite to what you just wrote. Soviet elites sold put own country and people and gave USA everything for nothing.

  64. @Felix Keverich

    Do not tell we Soviet people. Majority was against it. It is your personal opinion. I was against it and so was everybody I knew personally. Elites indeed sold us. But they were barking upon wrong tree, the tree that already passed its prime and was dying. We are seeing the process right now of this system death. Our resources bought them some 15-20 years but all good things come to end. They were living on debt already in i0s and now they sold future of grandkids too. If you believe this is not stupid crazy system I seriously doubt your intelligence.

    • Replies: @plonialmoni
  65. El Dato says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    There is no need to for drama mode.

    I don’t see “Russophobic” – unless Russians can’t die?

  66. El Dato says:
    @polskijoe

    I think SU economy was actually not so bad (inside the USSR, not satelites),
    but a little too much spending on military.

    On the contrary, it was pretty bad. Control economy does that to you, it considers everything as an exercise in military planning.

    Empty stores, scant infrastructure, shit quality, things that will be delivered “next year”, and most of the exchange going underground while nobody believes what’s coming out of the ministries.

    Then you end with grandiose bullshit projects. And disasters like Chernobyl (where radioactive foodstuff is not taken off the marked but “mixed for dilution” in the rest)

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Sergey Krieger
  67. @Andrei Martyanov

    Emotionally, Andrei , I am with Yuri, but if emotions removed I have to agree with you. However, I do think it is important not to overplay patience thing. Timing of well placed punch is also important and I do wonder is there will be will to act when time is right.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  68. paullll says:

    This article is sheer nonsense from start to end. Well I gave up reading half way through, so maybe – to be completely fair – plain truth somehow broke through at the end.

    Look, international law is dead letter at this point and Snaker knows it. Might makes Right is the only international law at this point in world history (as so often before – always ends badly). Turkey, the US and Israel are all unremovable from Syria at this point, unless Russia confronts them, which it clearly will never do. Syria has already been largely carved up at this point and the assembled feasters are simply quarreling at the table. This includes Russia, of course. Iran will probably be excluded from the feast before too long.

    If Russia had really wanted to champion Syria’s sovereignty in any real way, Putin would have provided the best of weapons, including AA, from the beginning to Assad. Once he stepped into the war he would have pushed on when there was a decisive advantage, bringing the war to a decisive close; but every time such an advantage was achieved, he called a truce so that the enemies of Assad could regroup, create new strategies and weapon up. Syria was always destined to be dinner and Assad to be dessert. By insincerely championing the Syrian government, Russia simply bought a seat at the table.

    The proxy forces have mostly been pushed aside now. The major players have taken off their masks and have taken seats at the table. Forks and knives are in play.

    The suggestion Snaker makes that Russia could provide AA to Syria at this point is obvious beyond obvious. What is equally obvious is that Russia will do no such thing. The logic for giving Assad the means to actually defend Syria was much stronger earlier in the war and Russia kept promising and kept delivering nothing.

    Right now Syria is being eaten alive and Assad is on his way to the plate. Erdogan seems to be the most frolicsome dancer at the feast, now kissing Putin, now kissing the US, more light on his feet than you’d think to look at him. What fun. What horrors unleashed. What grand lies told. The Hegemon stands a little taller every day as the Syrian endgame plays out and the next killing ground is prepared. Will it be Ukraine? Will it be Venezuela? Will it be Iran? Stay tuned.

  69. FB says:
    @El Dato

    It’s rare to see so much bullshit packed into one post…

    Everything you just said about the Soviet Union is pure VOA propaganda crap…

    And since it is a certainty that you have never been to the USSR yourself…I can only imagine what a fool it takes to pop off about something he has never even seen…

  70. @El Dato

    You would do a great favor by talking about things you know instead of spreading stale second hand BS.

    • Agree: FB
  71. RobinG says:
    @paullll

    Wow. This is brilliantly written. I hope you are wrong, but I can’t argue with your reasoning.

    • LOL: FB
  72. FB says:
    @paullll

    I’m guessing this is the mushroom trip take on Syria…?

  73. FB says:

    More information trickling in on that IAF F16 downing…

    From Alex Fishman, Israeli defense correspondent, in the Yediot Ahoronot newspaper…

    ‘…One of the [Israeli] planes was hit by the two barrages of 27 Syrian surface-to-air missiles… which is a huge achievement for the Syrian army, and embarrassing for the IAF, since the electronic warfare systems that envelope the plane were supposed to have provided protection from a barrage of missiles…

    The IAF is going to have to conduct an in-depth technical-intelligence inquiry to determine: are the Syrians in possession of systems that are capable of bypassing the Israeli warning and jamming systems?

    Have the Syrians developed a new technique that the IAF is unaware of?

    It was reported that the pilots did not radio in any alert that an enemy missile had locked onto their plane. In principle, they were supposed to report that. They might have been preoccupied.

    But there is also the more severe possibility that they were unaware of the missile that had locked onto them—which leads to the question of why they didn’t know, and only realized the severity of the damage after they had been hit and were forced to bail out…’

    That English translation from the Hebrew by former British diplomat Alistair Crooke in an interesting article today…

    I had mentioned in my #48…about the phased array S300/400 engagement radar…

    ‘…With electronic beam steering, very low sidelobes and a narrow pencil beam mainlobe, the… phased array is more difficult to detect and track by an aircraft’s warning receiver when not directly painted by the radar, and vastly more difficult to jam…’

    We know from Russian MoD pronouncements that these advanced Russian radars are integrated into the Syrian air defense system…and I had already given some technical info on how these radars are designed to control legacy S200 batteries…

    Also we note that there were two barrages…targeting only two aircraft…out of a total of eight…

    ‘…On Monday, the Yedioth Ahronoth daily also reported that another fighter jet was also targeted by the Syrian anti-aircraft missiles in the same barrage but managed to escape…’

    This second plane may have been that F15 that was reportedly hit but managed an emergency landing…that snippet from a Times of Israel article here…

    So we can see from this info that only two planes were actually targeted [although each with a substantial barrage]…resulting in one shot down…and another reportedly hit but not brought down…

    Not a bad result at all…

    We also note the perplexity about why no [or little] warning from the plane’s radar warning receiver [RWR]…

    Well…this is how SAM designers earn their paycheck…the Russians have been perfecting their S300/400 SAMs…especially the crucial radars for several decades now…

    That Times of Israel article notes…

    ‘…Israel hasn’t had true air superiority in the region since late 2015, when Russia decided to install an S-400 missile defense battery in Syria powerful enough to track the vast majority of Israeli airspace.

    Since then, Israel has effectively been operating in Syria by the grace of Moscow…

    “A fly can’t buzz above Syria without Russian consent nowadays,” an Israeli defense official told the International Crisis Group think tank after the S-400 was installed…’

    The Israelis were cautioned repeatedly by Putin himself to cut it out with the aerial harrassment on Syria…but they didn’t listen…the Syrians themselves fired off a couple of warning shots in recent months…but the Israelis still didn’t listen…

    Now the Syrians…piggybacking on the massive Russian radars to which their S200s are connected…decided to take an actual shot at two airplanes…here is the result…

    Also that F16 was brought down in Israeli airspace…and it does not seem clear whether any of those IAF aircraft actually entered Syrian airspace at any time…we note the comment about the plane’s high altitude to make sure the missile it was lobbing into Syria obtained maximum range…

    If they had raided into Syrian territory…they would have flown low to evade radar…

    Of course the IAF mouthpieces are talking tough in public…but I would bet dollars to donuts that they are singing a far different tune behind closed doors…

    • Replies: @Avery
  74. FB says:

    Just a further note about the significance of bringing down that plane in Israeli airspace…

    This illustrates the long reach of the Syrian SAMs…this seems to be a case of the usual Israeli tactic of lobbing missiles into Syria from outside Syrian airspace…

    To bring down a plane at that distance is actually quite a feat…we recall the warning issued by General Igor Konashenkov some months ago during a flare-up with the US that they would be ‘surprised’ at the reach of the Russian SAMs…if they were ever fired in anger…

    Clearly Konashenkov wasn’t bluffing…

    • Replies: @skrik
  75. utu says:
    @paullll

    Once he stepped into the war he would have pushed on when there was a decisive advantage, bringing the war to a decisive close; but every time such an advantage was achieved, he called a truce so that the enemies of Assad could regroup, create new strategies and weapon up.

    Very true.

  76. Biff says:
    @Vidi

    The U.S. is rich enough to survive a few disasters like Afghanistan, Iraq, and Libya, but not indefinitely.

    Disasters are the objective. Israeli’s have been for years planning the destabilization of neighboring governments to sow kaos, and then move into those areas in the name of security and ‘Greater Israel’. They’re just getting to dumb Americans to do the expensive dirty work.

    • Agree: utu, RobinG, renfro
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @Vidi
  77. Yes! The right thing to do is to let Turkey do what it wants to do.
    In the mean time Iranian and Syrian forces should rearm and regroup with Russia’s help.

  78. sarz says:

    This is a contest that Russia (and even China) cannot afford to lose. Neither can the AngloZionist empire. But it is a fight that Trump’s nation needs to ‘lose’. Just look up his campaign foreign policy manifesto. I have suggested, for some time, that this is a “fucking moron” game, and that Putin, Xi and Kim are in the know. So are the masters of the empire and their Neocon agents. That’s why no resource is being held back to bring Trump down. The Saker thinks the idea that Trump is throwing the game is simply ridiculous, but in tbe meantime his article on the possible names to be sanctioned mentioned this very possibility (among others), that in addition to doing no real damage it was an answer to Putin’s prayer of getting oligarch money back to tbe safety of Russia, and having tbis sort of attack on Putin will help his electoral margin. Trump seems to be playing a weak hand strongly, but of course there is the danger of setting off a major war.

  79. @FB

    This is awesome information! Thank you!

  80. It’s going to be a Mexican showdown, when Russians arms the Syrians and Iranians and the Taliban in Afghanistan. This would be in direct retaliation to Amerikkkan arming of the Kiev thugs with lethal weapons. Let’s see if the Amerikkans and their Israeli thugs can stand pain as well. Putin has to, and will escalate. He wants to do it when he’s ready, just not when others expect to draw him in.

    • Agree: TT
  81. @Vidi

    But getting “sucked into the Middle Eastern quagmire” and staying there permanently is Washington’s goal. As long as there are “terrorists” operating there, they have an excuse to stay. This strategy serves several purposes:

    A. It denies control of them to any other power, such as Russia or China.

    B. These territories can be used to destabilize other neighboring states, if necessary (think Pakistan, Iran or Central Asia.)

    C. It gives US special forces bases of operations for covert action or reconnaissance against those same neighboring states.

    And what if some clever country like Iran manages to gain influence over one of these states, as it did in Iraq? Well, in Washingtonland, that would constitute a Crisis!!! and an Iranian act of aggression!!! demanding a response. In short, they would then have a justification for–you guessed it!–yet another intervention in the ME.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  82. @paullll

    Even though I’m biased in Putin’s favor and would like to think more highly of him than this, I must confess I’ve had the same thought myself.

  83. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Chub said that a russian ship will be targeted and radar installations as well.the signal for this will be the downing of a su fighter jet.march in march.for sure the stratergy of the enemy of my enemy is his friends friend that is developing in syria and lebanon in an effort to pressure israel is entering the realm of the unknown.

  84. Miro23 says:
    @Felix Keverich

    As a Russian, I agree and the only reason Putin took Crimea was to avoid paying political price for the loss of Ukraine, i.e. save himself from being overthrown. At the end of the day, this regime’s main (only) concern is self-preservation – I think most of us can see this now.

    Following the “self-preservation” line, the different actors here have different interests:

    Putin – Along with his generals, Putin’s surely concerned about the orchestrated anti-Russia propaganda emanating from the US Deep State. He’s aware that the same kind of anti-Iraq propaganda proceeded the Iraq war, and now the US/Israel are again ratcheting up the tension in Syria. There are enormous risks in all this, so maybe Syria is a real life demonstration to the US that Russia has the technical capability to defend itself against a strike on Russia itself. Also, resistance to the US wins points in contested upcoming elections.

    Erdogan – Erdogan knows that Gulenist coup attempt was cooked up by the Israel/CIA Deep State. It was plain to see how US forces stationed at Incirlik (joint US/Turkish airbase) carefully looked the other way while Gulenist forces used the base as a headquarters to launch sorties against NATO ally Turkey’s legitimately elected government and legitimate president (Erdogan). So, Erdogan is no friend of the US Zioglob, and a strong response to the Kurds is also essential for his political survival, given years of insurgency in Eastern Turkey and the new CIA/Deep State idea of an independent Kurdish state in Iraq/Syria (Turkey? Iran?).

    Trump – Trump was elected on no more ME wars, and he was probably pushing the political limit with his cruise missile strike on a Syrian air base. If he supported full US engagement in a Syrian war it would probably be political suicide. On the other hand, he is increasingly being pushed by a rabid crowd of Zionist urgently requiring the US to knock out Syria, and then Iran, while they’re also setting up Russia (Russian hacking). So, a good question for Trump is whether his “self-preservation” lies with the US public or the Deep State.

    Israel – For Israel’s Likudniks, the US is an prime asset that needs to be exploited, and it’s the only way they can get to destroy Syria and Iran, which they want to happen ASAP. Russia is getting in the way so the US Zionist media demonizes Russia, and equally, US nationalist opposition is developing into a problem (wouldn’t have been under anointed candidate HRC) so the Deep State has to turn the screws on US dissidents and ramp up totalitarianism.

    US Public – “Self-preservation” here means refusing to accept confrontations with Syria, Iran, Turkey and Russia (and rather seeking improved relations with these countries) plus facing off the Deep State. Inevitably this means the Public as The Public (not their “representatives”) on the streets of American cities with a general and personal demonstration of their rejection of the ME wars and the Deep State – although its doubtful that they’re capable of it.

    • Replies: @TT
  85. skrik says:
    @FB

    Just a further note about the significance of bringing down that plane in Israeli airspace

    Err – surely the entire action, from AA-launch to ‘hit’ *must* have taken place wholly *within* Syrian airspace, for the ‘simple’ reason that hitting an IDF warplane within Israeli airspace would cause all sorts of ructions? Like, say, great swarms of IDF ['D' = offence] tanks pouring out through the Fulda – err, Golan Gap?

    The way I would see it is a) the IDF warplanes’ incursion into Syria, b) their firing of attack-rockets, c) the IDF warplanes turning to return ‘home’ THEN d) getting hit from behind without notice, but being pointed in the return direction ejecting, allowing the crash to take place outside Syria.

    Not so BTW, many thanks for your detailed, helpful explications. rgds

    • Replies: @FB
  86. skrik says:
    @paullll

    The Hegemon stands a little taller every day as the Syrian endgame plays out and the next killing ground is prepared

    With all due respect, I think this is hubris, and rather gives you away as a US/Z propagandist. A little bit of ‘evidence’ is that Syria, with Russian assistance, just brought down one of the IDF’s ‘finest’ warplanes while reputedly damaging a 2nd, and apart from the immediate blind-rage response, the IDF warplanes seem to be parking rather than flying, at least not in Syria’s direction. Another little bit of ‘evidence’ is that no person of compassion could write what you have done here, without collapsing from guilt, despair and/or other more ‘normal’ reaction.

  87. Avery says:
    @FB

    {‘…With electronic beam steering, very low sidelobes and a narrow pencil beam mainlobe, the… phased array is more difficult to detect and track by an aircraft’s warning receiver when not directly painted by the radar, and vastly more difficult to jam…’}

    OK. Makes sense, for the search radar

    But the final homing of the S-200 missile is done by the on-board radar, correct?
    And that one is pretty old radar, unless that was upgrade too.
    If it was old radar, why was it not detected by the F-16?

    • Replies: @wayfarer
  88. Joe Hide says:

    A better solution is easy. Just strongly encourage the continuing and escalating removal of opportunistic, pyschopath, pedophile, control freaks from power. This began in force in the U.S. ever since the Trump Era began (Although generally not exposed to the public), and is going world wide. This is the Enormous “Elephant in the room”, not the Israeli, Russian, and other influences on our politics. Generations and decades will pass for complete changes to occur. Patience and the slow game are the great virtues among those who know this.

  89. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Andrei Martyanov

    What Is your analysis of Strelkov/Girkin comments that hundreds or Wagner were killed in US assault?

  90. @Sergey Krieger

    I seriously doubt the intelligence of people who say “I seriously doubt your intelligence.”

  91. wayfarer says:
    @Avery

    U.S. fighter aircraft may be capable of supersonic flying speeds of Mach 2.4, but hypersonic engines are now pushing ground-to-air missiles at Mach 6.0.

    I would imagine intercept equations, are primarily balanced by speed and distance, giving ground-to-air missiles a significant advantage over fighter aircraft, in most cases.

    source: http://www.news.com.au/technology/china-declares-success-of-hypervelocity-missile-program/news-story/f85c269edd0eb804ac6509486633cb4c

    • Replies: @Avery
  92. “Events in Syria have recently clearly taken a turn for the worse [sic!] and there is an increasing amount of evidence that the Russian task force in Syria is being targeted by a systematic campaign of “harassing attacks””. Now, that’s good news! I share the author’s view that the US strategy in Syria, whether new or otherwise, is “to punish the Russians as much as possible short of an overt US attack on Russian forces”. Such a strategy makes clear that Putin is now irreversibly bogged down in Syria and is in fact a sitting duck. The US can lower the boom on him at any time by re-launching the war and there’s nothing he can do but put up with it. If he wants to attack US or Israeli forces, he will be blamed for the escalation. The author, of course, is trying to puff up Putin but as he seems to admit, counter-escalation or tacit capitulation are really the only options for Putin. Also, as is clear from some of the comments, nobody doubts that all this is really “about” Ukraine. “Fight him in Syria so as not to have to fight him in Ukraine”. That’s Putin’s conundrum. To get a deal in Syria, he has to abandon Ukraine, but the only reason he waded into the Syrian civil war was to avoid having to abandon Ukraine. If he has to abandon Ukraine, then a deal in Syria is useless to him. His only choice is which foot he’s going to shoot himself in.

    • Troll: bluedog
  93. Avery says:
    @wayfarer

    I was not asking about speed.

    I am no expert, but the way I understand how these things work, is that the search radar first finds it in the skies and sends the missile into that narrow space where the target is. Then the missile has to home in on the target to detonate in close proximity or preferably impact the target to destroy or damage it. The other jet that was damaged most likely got hit with shrapnel of the exploding warhead of the missile, but not close enough to bring it down.

    Back to homing: missiles home in either via IR (Sidewinder), radar, optical, or combination thereof.
    See #58 ‘Here is what the S200 seeker looks like…’

    Clearly, if the picture is accurate, S-200 homes in via a radar.
    So the question was: if it still carries an old radar, how is it that F-16′s modern ECW did not detect it before it impacted?

    • Replies: @wayfarer
    , @FB
  94. What I admire about Putin that he never lets himself to be provoked.
    On the other hand, he is determined not the let the west succeed in gradually getting more and more countries under their control, until the moment is ripe to take Russia, one way or another.
    The strategists in Washington must have very blood pressures with such an opponent.
    No trick succeeds, until now, on the contrary, shooting down an Israeli airplane, the first in 35 years, must give them a very high heartbeat, in addition.
    Netanyahu’s screaming about Iran, does it impress anyone, except himself ?

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  95. wayfarer says:
    @Avery

    DRFM Jamming Suppression for Radar Exploiting Linear Frequency Modulation Transmission.

    Abstract: Digital radio frequency memory (DRFM) jamming is difficult to eliminate if it enters a radar system from the main lobe. A novel processing scheme for radar using linear frequency modulation waveform is proposed to accomplish target detection in asynchronous false target scenarios in accordance with the incoherent characteristic of the jamming signals. The technique of fractional Fourier transformation is adopted to transform the received signals with different time delays into single frequencies, then the target is estimated by a type of modified multiple signal classification approach. The difference of the estimated frequencies among the multiple transmitting period is used to discriminate the true and false echoes. In the end, order statistic constant false alarm rate approach is applied to target detection. The results of computer simulations show that the performance of the proposed scheme is superior to the conventional pulse compression processing in radar.

    source: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8059367/

    Well the answers to your questions, can be found somewhere within the rapidly morphing field of electrical engineering and computer science. You could begin your investigation with the paper above.

    Although the discussion below, probably offers a simpler path to the questions/answers you seek.

    “If fighter jets can jam radars, then how can air defense systems counter hostilities?”

    source: https://www.quora.com/If-fighter-jets-can-jam-radars-then-how-can-air-defense-systems-counter-hostilities

  96. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:

    Anon from TN
    Well, the US/Israeli plan to break Syria into many impotent Bantustans failed. The way I see it, there are two options now. One, Syria is divided in two by Russia and the US, like Germany and Korea after WWII. Two, Syria is preserved as a unified secular country, like it was before 2011. Option one is the current situation on the ground. Option two would require that Russia (possibly using Syrians, Iranians, and/or Hezlbollah as proxies) openly confronts the US and its vassals in Syria. So far I am not sure which option Putin will choose. He usually avoids direct confrontations with the US, but does not hesitate to smear US proxies over the wall (e.g., Ossetia, Abkhazia, Crimea, Western Syria).

  97. There seems to be an echo in here.

    Putin didn’t smear anyone over the wall in Crimea. Russian forces were already legally stationed there and simply came out to prevent the US sponsored thuggery and murders such as what happened in Odessa. The Crimean people themselves voted overwhelmingly to rejoin Russia. There was no violence like what occurred elsewhere in Ukraine.

    I’m fairly sure that you do know this but this small correction is justified lest dangerous propaganda be nourished and allowed to grow.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  98. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @The Scalpel

    Anon from TN
    That particular fake (which first appeared on the web page of “Kiev journalist” Vladimir Moskalenko: surprise, surprise!) was debunked in many ways. First, the last names look suspicious: every one ends with “ov”, “ev”, or “in”, not a single one having other ending, which is virtually impossible in a list of 70 names in Russia, be it the queue at the physician’s office or the list of military personnel. Second, too many names in the list sound old-fashioned, which is also unrealistic. Quite a few names were clearly manufactured from the names of Russian writers and other well-known people. Third, the term “section commander” is used, which is never used in the Russian Army, but was already used in previous fakes concocted by Ukrainian secret police. So, with the probability approaching 100% this was a fake concocted by Ukrainian secret services, pretty ham-handed, as usual.

    • Replies: @Vojkan
  99. Vidi says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    But getting “sucked into the Middle Eastern quagmire” and staying there permanently is Washington’s goal.

    No, it’s the goal of the U.S. Zionists, who work mostly for Israel’s benefit. Most Americans probably don’t even know where Israel is, much less care. The U.S.’s fundamental interest is to not become an economic disaster, which is what it would be if it’s suckered into the Middle East.

  100. Vojkan says:

    Step two is mandatory if the Russian want to finish the job in Syria.

  101. Erdogan is a day late and a dollar short — five years too late in fact. Time was to expand the New Shithole Caliphate into Syria when there were no Russkie or ‘Murican boots on the ground.

    Of coutse, the ErdoOil & Family extraction and theft racket had to take precedence. Kleptoislam is never more harmlessly engaged than when it is making money.

  102. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    DailyMail reports “dozens” of Russians killed. Since they are there supposedly on their own the Russian government is not obligated to them. The Americans did this as a provocative taunt, avoiding a direct clash with the official Russian presence but nevertheless killing the Russian mercs for some sort of demonstration effect. Since as we all now know that the various rebels were a creation of the US and it’s allies there’s a good chance that some US special forces were killed in Russian bombardments as they were embedded with the rebels. The US wouldn’t be able to acknowledge that it had personnel with AQ or ISIS but it’s apparent those groups had a lot of guidance from outside and from within.
    It’s not clear what the US thinks it’s doing right now. Since it’s original plan hasn’t worked out perhaps just sabotaging the rebuilding of the Syrian state is it’s goal. This recent incident can’t help but increase the pressure on Putin to respond in some way. Nothing good can come of all this. The US made a decision to draw up and side with some of the worst criminal Islamic fanatics and has thus put itself on the side of anti-civilization, anti-humanity forces. The US has turned into a rogue regime.

  103. Vojkan says:
    @AnonFromTN

    What strikes me about the Ukies is how amateurish they are. The world has changed since such implausible tricks were pulled in the former Yugoslavia. Are they really such halfwits?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  104. @jilles dykstra

    You must! And I say you must immediately contact a doctor about your stuttering.

  105. Vojkan says:
    @Felix Keverich

    As a Serb, if I were Putin I would have done nothing differently than him regarding Ukraine. Sometimes what we feel and what is real are two different things. He did what was necessary and possible.

  106. Vidi says:
    @Biff

    Disasters are the objective. Israeli’s have been for years planning the destabilization of neighboring governments to sow kaos, and then move into those areas in the name of security and ‘Greater Israel’. They’re just getting to dumb Americans to do the expensive dirty work.

    That’s what Israel wants: to sucker the U.S. into doing the “expensive dirty work”. However, they are using up the U.S.; according to Nobel-winning economist Joseph Stiglitz, the war in Iraq cost the U.S. over three trillion dollars. And that is just the one invasion. If America’s suckered into the Middle East again (as Israel keeps trying to do), that will be the end of the Empire.

  107. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Vojkan

    Anon from TN
    I know quite a few people with normal intelligence born in Ukraine. However, they either left that unfortunate country, or play deaf and dumb, if they remain there. I had two nephews in Ukraine, now one lives in Russia and one in the Netherlands. The post-coup “leadership” may be genuinely dumb, or may just pretend that they believe their own lies. After all, Poroshenko and Co successfully enrich themselves stealing with both hands, so they have no interest in upsetting the situation. They do think about the future, though, and I am sure they prepare for it. As the leader of Ukrainian Radical party and the member of Rada Oleg Lyashko said some time ago, “those, whose plane does not take off in time, will be hanged”. That’s a pretty realistic prediction, suggesting reasonable intelligence. However, the fact that the same sniper scenario that was previously used in Saraevo and Deraa, Syria, was used again in Kiev in 2014 and yielded desired result suggests that there is a significant fraction of the population with clinically low IQ.

    • Agree: yurivku
  108. Vojkan says:

    People were excusable back then in the mid 1990s for not knowing the deception played before their eyes. After all the proven lies since then – Kosovo – Iraq – Libya – now Syria – it’s just despairing that they still swallow the “official” stories.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  109. Rurik says:
    @paullll

    Turkey, the US and Israel are all unremovable from Syria at this point, unless Russia confronts them, which it clearly will never do. Syria has already been largely carved up at this point and the assembled feasters are simply quarreling at the table. This includes Russia, of course. Iran will probably be excluded from the feast before too long.

    You’re trying to equate Iran and Russia (acting in good faith at the behest of Syria, and in full compliance with all International Laws)

    vs.

    The rogue regimes (the Fiend) acting (as usual) in violation of all known precepts of International Law (not to mention all notions of simply decency and honor).

    The ZUS and Israel and Turkey (and Saudi Arabia and others) are illegitimate actors in the region. They are in violation of International Law, which Russia is *defending*, not violating.

    To equate Russia in Syria with the known criminal ZUS/Israeli regime, is like equating a man (Putin) who has come to the defense of a person being raped (Assad), and beaten the rapist (Bibi) away, and while consoling her and giving her his overcoat and offering her a ride home or to a hospital, you would shout that he’s as bad as the rapist, because he too is now in her (Syria’s) company!

    One is a violator and criminal, and the other is a welcomed savior and benefactor. If the rape victim eventually asks her savior in for a cup of coffee, his behavior if he accepts, is not the same as the rapist. There is a very significant difference that apparently escapes you.

    he would have pushed on when there was a decisive advantage, bringing the war to a decisive close; but every time such an advantage was achieved, he called a truce

    you’re equating diplomacy and statecraft vs. unilateral belligerence- with treachery

    Pretending that Putin could have demanded an unilateral end to the conflict by a sheer use of force, is asinine. It ignores that the ZUS has been salivating for any pretext at all to accuse Putin’s Russia of aggression. It ignores Turkey and Saudi Arabia and Israel. Putin has danced a diplomatic razor’s edge, with careful use of force vs. restraint which characterizes his unique statesman-like genius.

    We all know how eager the ZUS congress was and is to slobber all over Bibi’s private parts. Especially when Obama/Hillary was in the White House. And bomb any and all nations into the stone age at the drop of a hat, if it would mean the Jewish lobby in the ZUS would grant them another term.

    We all know that Putin went along with the Fiend’s serial destruction of nation after nation.. but then Syria was just a bridge too far for Putin, and yes, it may have had something to do with Russia’s national interests; International Law being one of them. Or it may have had to do with Putin being the only adult left on the world’s stage who still had the wherewithal to thwart the slathering beast’s drooling reign of death and destruction over a beleaguered planet.

    Based on your metric, the destabilization of Ukraine is also partly Russia’s fault, (since they’ve been reluctantly dragged into that as well), but we all know that to be absurd.

    The proxy forces have mostly been pushed aside now. The major players have taken off their masks and have taken seats at the table. Forks and knives are in play.

    there is some truth to this, as Bibi is increasingly being forced to confront Putin. Since the goal all along has been Israel’s design to see Syria destabilized and dismembered so that she could steal the Golan Heights, and also to get the ZUS to destroy Iran for it.

    Turkey and Saudi and others are simply the jackals and vultures who figured they’d too get to peck at Syria’s bones, since the beast was off the leash, and there’d be plenty of morsels of a murdered Syria to scavenge from.

    The logic for giving Assad the means to actually defend Syria was much stronger earlier in the war and Russia kept promising and kept delivering nothing.

    this is contradictory

    Russia has all but secured Syria’s sovereignty. The reason the ZUS is still there, is presumably to guarantee that Israel can steal the Golan, and also to act as a bulwark against Iran’s ascendancy in Syria, Lebanon. Eventually it will come down to the Golan Heights. Either Israel can steal it, or not.

    The ‘Kurdish state’, the ongoing strife between Saudi and Iran, the coquettish Erdogan, making eyes at Russia and the ZUS alternatively, are all just proxies and remoras, opportunistically dining on the scraps as the Fiend wages its vicious campaign for unilateral domination of the planet, with the few heroic nations (Russia most of all) willing to oppose it, to retain some semblance of International Law, and order.

    The Hegemon stands a little taller every day as the Syrian endgame plays out and the next killing ground is prepared. Will it be Ukraine?

    No, the “Hegemon: (Fiend) stands a little more slumped each day. Bibi is looking more and more like a ridiculous cretin on the world’s stage, erroneously and foolishly calling the Golan Heights ‘Israeli airspace’.

    http://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/WATCH-LIVE-Netanyahu-addresses-Munich-Security-Conference-542917

    He’s becoming a joke, and being increasingly mocked on the world’s stage.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/polish-pm-rebuked-for-holocaust-remark/ar-BBJgyaS

    As Hillary is laughed off into her obscurity, and Tillerson’s words are like so much chaff in the wind, it is Russia (and Iran and Syria and all people of good will) and the world community that stand a little taller every day. And the great zio-whore, who has been menacing the people of the planet, and raining down horrors upon horrors, is beginning to reap what it has sowed for generations now.

    Let’s hope Israel sends in a few dozen more fighters into Syria, and sees them all get shot out of the sky.

    I suspect that even the bullied and bribed men and women of the ZUS congress would quietly try to hide their smiles. As most of the rest of the planet would cheer to the heavens at the wonderful news!

  110. FB says:
    @Avery

    ‘…Clearly, if the picture is accurate, S-200 homes in via a radar.

    So the question was: if it still carries an old radar, how is it that F-16′s modern ECW did not detect it before it impacted?..’

    Well that’s the Big Question that the Israelis are asking…isn’t it…?

    It would be useful for anyone following my technical comments to click through those links and read those artcles…btw…

    Not that it answers this particular question…

    Here I will go over some of the technical specifics and more details and offer a method of operating this SAM system in a way that might do what it seems to have done…ie got the missile close enough without setting off the target aircraft’s radar warning receiver…

    First a review of what I said in my #58…

    The radar that is carried in the nose of the S200 and pictured there works in conjunction with the Engagement Radar…

    Your mention of acquisition radar…which is used as a first step to locate the targets…is really irrelevant here…yes these are used but they will never set off the RWR since they are just basically scanning the skies…

    The RWR is designed to go off only when there is a radar lock on the airplane…that means that the engagement radar has fixed a very narrow and powerful radio beam on the airplane…

    The RWR is designed like that for a very logical reason…obviously you don’t want it going off all the time…only when you are under actual attack…

    That is why I have not discussed acquisition radars…because…although they are an important part of the overall air defense picture…they are not relevant to the discussion of how the legacy S200 missiles can be made to do things that only modern S300/400 systems are thought able to do…

    Your mention of such is only confusing the picture…

    Let’s review what I have discussed briefly…the new and very powerful phased array engagement radars used on the S300/400 can control the legacy S200…

    The S200 works by means of both its engagement radar and the onboard radar in the missile nosecone…that onboard seeker sends signals back to the engagement radar that helps get a better fix…think of it as two eyes better than one…

    I had already talked about this technique…which is called track via missile or TVM…and it is used on all modern SAMs…

    Now you are assuming that just because that onboard radar seeker is ‘old’ that it is not effective…this is not how things work…old tech can be very effective when used in a particular way…and I will try to explain what I think happened here…and why those targeted Israeli pilots did not see the missiles coming…[or saw them only when it was already too late...]

    We step back here and note from that article I quoted…where the Israeli defense correspondent talks about the lack of warning…

    ‘…It was reported that the pilots did not radio in any alert that an enemy missile had locked onto their plane. In principle, they were supposed to report that. They might have been preoccupied.

    But there is also the more severe possibility that they were unaware of the missile that had locked onto them—which leads to the question of why they didn’t know, and only realized the severity of the damage after they had been hit and were forced to bail out…’

    Now…not going on the radio to report a missile lock doesn’t mean anything because obviously the pilot is first trying to fly the airplane and escape the pursuing missile…and not sit and talk on the radio…

    Issuing a quick radio report may be done in cases where there is a lock-on but no apparent missile threat…and only after making sure the coast is clear…the pilot can then go on the radio and report the lock…[this is a cat and mouse game that goes on all the time...]

    But what this does tell us is that the two-man crew of that F16 had very little time…if any…once they became aware of the missile…it was all over maybe even before they could initiate evasive maneuvers [by the sound of it...]

    The way the story is told by Fishman…I would say it is probable that their RWR went off with maybe a few seconds before impact…giving almost no reaction time to take evasive maneuvers…but we have no way of knowing the exact details…

    Ie did the RWR even go off…?

    And if so…did they have time to even begin evasive maneuvers…?

    Being forced to guess here I would say that it sounds like a situation where the RWR probably did go off…but with precious little time before the bang…

    I say this because it would be very difficult for a SAM engagement radar to behave in such a stealthy way as to lock on without setting off any warning at all in the target aircraft…

    Of course this is the ultimate objective of SAM designers…obviously they are trying to come up with a technical solution that will do just that…sneak up on the airplane and boom…without any warning…

    However…this may be difficult to achieve…at some point that pursuing missile needs a very strong radar signal [lock] on that target airplane in order to make the precise intercept fix…

    I would say a realistic objective is to get that missile quite close without giving it away…that by the time the engagement radar locks on…it is too late…the RWR goes off…and a couple seconds later it’s lights out…

    This is indeed possible…and I will describe such a prospective technique as follows…

    In a word…this technique is called data fusion…and is already used in Russian SAMs…although not to my knowledge with respect to engagement radars per se…

    The data fusion technique has been developed for low-frequency anti-stealth radars…such as these…

    What we’re looking at here is the Nebo SVU…an anti-stealth radar complex consisting of three radars of differing wavelengths in the foreground and a data fusion system in the background…each mounted on its own mobile chassis…and fully shoot and scoot capable…

    A little bit of background…low frequency radar waves…ie long wavelength…are effective at seeing ‘stealth’ aircraft at long distances…this is because stealth aircraft design is largely based on geometric shaping of the airframe…and when the radio wavelength is physically longer than the features of the airplane…ie the tail or wing etc…then the stealth geometry doesn’t work and the radar sees it just fine…

    Incidentally…this branch of physics was developed by Russian academic Petr Ufimtsev in the early 1960s…when he published the seminal work…Method of Edge Waves in the Physical Theory of Diffraction…

    The Russians saw little value in this work and allowed it to be published…in 1971 this book was translated into English with the same title by the U.S. Air Force…[still available free online from USAF if anyone wants a link...]

    ‘…A stealth engineer at Lockheed, Denys Overholser, had read the publication and realized that Ufimtsev had created the mathematical theory and tools to do finite analysis of radar reflection…

    This discovery inspired and had a big role in the design of the first true stealth aircraft, the Lockheed F-117.

    Northrop also used Ufimtsev’s work to program super computers to predict the radar reflection of the B-2 bomber…’

    That’s why Ufimtsev…who later went on to teach at UCLA is known as the ‘father of stealth’…he basically invented this entire branch of physics…

    Little sidebar there…but back to the question at hand…

    So we have that big radar on the right hand side of the picture that is in the VHF band…same as TV…and with the same kind of ‘yagi’ antennas…this is in the two-meter band wavelength and can see through the stealth shaping without problem…

    However…the problem with low frequency radar is low resolution…

    It cannot get a very precise fix on that airplane…just the general area…

    Now what happens is that this info is passed on to the next shorter wavelength radar…the L-band in the middle foreground of the picture…which focuses on the area provided by the VHF band…and gets a more precise location fix…

    That location data is again passed on to the S-band radar in the left of the picture…which does the same thing…knowing already on what sector to focus…it gets an even more finely resolved location fix…

    The S-band is actually a short enough wavelength to use as an engagement radar…ie it can produce a very thin beam that is very precise and can guide a missile to the target…

    However…in this case it doesn’t necessarily guide the missile shot…at least not by itself…[that's why this this whole complex is classed as an Acquisition radar system...]

    Like I said earlier…typically…the acquisition radar hands off the target location data to the actual engagement radar…which for the S400 is the 92N6E ‘Grave Stone’…which operates in an even shorter wavelength [higher frequency]…the X and Ku bands…

    These frequencies can produce a very sharp, thin radio beam with very fine resolution of the target location and movement…they can make this thin radio beam because the wavelength is in the millimeter range…

    The 92N6E is a more evolved and much more powerful version of the 5N63 ‘Flap Lid’ phased array first introduced on the earliest generation S300…here is what the Grave Stone looks like…

    What happens here is that the Grave Stone engagement radar now has a very precise location to home in on…and it can focus all of its electrical power into a very small sector of the sky…because the other radars have already told it where to look…

    Now what happens next is the interesting part…like I said…the S-band part of the ‘acquisition’ complex is accurate enough to guide the missile shot…at least for midcourse guidance…as well as a datalink to the missile during its midcourse flight…

    The engagement radar takes over when the missile is in very close and closing for the kill…

    Now the advantage of all this is that the missile is basically sneaking up…because those lower-frequency radars aren’t able to produce that thin powerful radio beam that is going to set off the target aircraft RWR…which are tuned precisely for those thin, high frequency radio beams used by the engagement radar…

    And there is an additional bit of trickery involved here…remember that data fusion truck…?

    Well the idea of data fusion is to combine signals from a number of different radars…and combine that into a ‘virtual’ fix on the target…

    The US navy uses a similar scheme which they call cooperative engagement capability [CEC]…which collects and simultaneously fuses tracking data from multiple shipboard search radars…

    It is not clear how far the Russians have taken this concept…but the implication is obvious…using a number of radars in different locations that are datalinked together…it is possible to guide a missile shot to at least get close enough without having to lock on and give itself away…

    The fact that these radars are also using different wavelengths is an additional advantage…since the RWR will be tuned for a typical engagement radar frequency…ie the very precise and powerful high frequency [short wavelength] radio waves in the X and Ku spectrum…

    The upshot of all this is that the onboard radar on the S200 can be turned off until the very last moment…it turns on only when it is close enough that the kill is assured…and the reaction time is minimized…

    The Russians certainly have a lot of these very powerful radars in Syria…and, as of 2017, they are all networked together with the Syrian SAMs…

    Here is the statement from Chief of Staff and Deputy Commander of the Russian Aerospace Forces Major-General Sergey Meshcheryakov…

    ‘…Today, a unified, integrated air defense system has been set up in Syria.

    We have ensured the information and technical interlinkage of the Russian and Syrian air reconnaissance systems. All information on the situation in the air comes from Syrian radar stations to the control points of the Russian force grouping…’

    So that is the possible technical explanation as to how a supposedly ‘obsolete’ S200 [service entry 1967] was able to bring down one of two Israeli warplanes it targeted…and at quite an impressive range…

    A good overview is in this NYT op-ed piece by Ronen Bergman a senior correspondent for military and intelligence affairs at Israeli newspaper Yedioth Ahronoth…

    ‘…A minute and a half after the [Iranian] drone entered Israeli airspace, an Israeli Air Force attack helicopter shot it out of the sky.

    Simultaneously, eight Israeli fighter jets fired missiles at the drone’s command and control center at Tiyas, blowing it up, along with the Iranians manning the center. (Iran has denied that its drone was shot down or that its troops were killed.)

    The Syrian military, allied with Iran, responded by firing surface-to-air missiles at the Israeli jets.

    The missiles locked onto two Israeli aircraft. One of these managed to evade the rockets, but the other was hit by fragments of the exploding missile. The two-man crew ejected and landed in Israeli territory. One of them was gravely wounded…’

    The bigger picture is that we have just seen a game-changer in the region that reflects a new reality on the ground…as many observers have noted…including the above author…

    ‘…The events on Saturday made two things clear: First, Israel will no longer be able to act in Syria without limitations. The joint forces opposed to it will from now on react with vigor.

    Second, if anyone was not yet aware of it, Russia is the dominant power in the region…’

    This article…as well as the Crooke article and others I have linked to are strongly suggested reading…

    …especially for a number of clueless commenters here who seem to be getting their info from the disney channel…

  111. Avery says:
    @FB

    thanks for the detailed explanation.

  112. FB says:
    @skrik

    ‘…Err – surely the entire action, from AA-launch to ‘hit’ *must* have taken place wholly *within* Syrian airspace, for the ‘simple’ reason that hitting an IDF warplane within Israeli airspace would cause all sorts of ructions?..’

    Not so…

    Here is some of the available information from the Israeli press…which I have already pointed to previously…

    ‘…The initial assessments of the event indicate that the plane was brought down while flying over Israel after a large volley of anti-aircraft missiles — at least five, but possibly more — were fired at it, Conricus said.

    The army said it was still investigating if the plane was brought down because it was operating at a high altitude to ensure its bombs were hitting their targets, which made it easier for Syrian air defenses to spot and fire at it, and failed to react quickly enough, as was reported in Israeli media outlets on Sunday…’

    I had said exactly that in my #74…

    ‘…we note the comment about the plane’s high altitude to make sure the missile it was lobbing into Syria obtained maximum range…’

    Another report in a NYT op-ed piece by a well-known Israeli defense reporter…supports that scenario with additional detail…

    ‘…A minute and a half after the drone entered Israeli airspace, an Israeli Air Force attack helicopter shot it out of the sky.

    Simultaneously, eight Israeli fighter jets fired missiles at the drone’s command and control center at Tiyas, blowing it up, along with the Iranians manning the center. (Iran has denied that its drone was shot down or that its troops were killed.)

    The Syrian military, allied with Iran, responded by firing surface-to-air missiles at the Israeli jets.

    The missiles locked onto two Israeli aircraft. One of these managed to evade the rockets, but the other was hit by fragments of the exploding missile. The two-man crew ejected and landed in Israeli territory. One of them was gravely wounded…’

    By this account…the eight Israeli warplanes firing missiles into Syria happened ‘simultaneously’ with that drone being shot down…that means there was no time for a cross-border raid…

    So all indications are that Israel fired its missiles into Syria…as it has been doing for some time now…from outside of Syrian airspace…

    That still constitutes an act of war…and Syria had every right to target those attacking planes in Israeli airspace…

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @skrik
  113. @oscar

    Spot on.

    Again and again I am astonished by the complete lack of russian awareness of stalinist crimes.

    While there is absolutely no need to copy present-day Germany’s guilt-cult, a bit less noise about so called nazis and fascists might actually help the Russians to find solutions and even draw present enemies over to them.

    (I am not going to waste my time answering to irate Russians. I am no enemy of that nation, to the contrary, but if you insist on shutting your eyes fast, don’t complain about the occastional stubbed toe: it’s completely unnecessary.)

    • Agree: L.K
    • Troll: FB
  114. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Vojkan

    Anon from TN
    As American saying goes, “fool me once – shame on you, fool me twice –shame on me”. Unfortunately, a lot of people are so uninformed that they don’t even know that they are fooled by recycled and reused lies.

  115. @FB

    Comments like yours serve as a force multiplier on the already hefty Unz Review. Thanks.

    • Replies: @FB
  116. FB says:

    A significant development today on the Afrin front that was not totally unexpected…

    In my #30…I had said this…

    ‘…So the idea of the Turks overrunning Afrin is very dangerous…there are constant reports and rumors that the Afrin Kurds are on the brink of coming to terms with the SAA so the SAA can come in and proclaim Syrian sovereignty over the area…

    In this scenario…backed by Russian diplomatic and military guarantees…the Turks would have no choice but to retreat…their raison d’etre would be gone if the Kurdish Afrin is in the Syrian fold…’

    Well…now we have reports that this deal has been reached…and that SAA troops are expected to enter Afrin within the next 48 hours…

    A spokesman for the Kurdish PYD…the political wing of the YPG…said this…

    ‘…We are urging the Syrian army to come to protest the Syrian borders from the Turkish occupation. Afrin is part of Syria, that’s why we have called on the army to stand on guard of the border…

    We are calling on the army to help, because we’d love to preserve a unified Syria, as Turkey is seeking to annex the Syrian territories and make them part of its land, like it was with Aleksandretta sanjak [during the Ottoman Empire]…’

    This is another huge development…

    We see this coming on the heels of Tillerson’s visit to Ankara…where the Kurds had surely been hoping that Tillerson would have made some kind of deal with Erdogan to back off on the Afrin invasion…

    That never happened…surprise surprise…

    The Afrin Kurds clearly saw that the sellout was complete…they were being thrown to the Turkish wolves by their ‘buddy’ USA…

    Now the SDF-held Afrin region is being reintegrated into Syria…

    This is what happens when the US insists on pissing into the wind…

    This Afrin sellout will also not go unnoticed by the Kurds in Manbij and elsewhere throughout the SDF held area east of the Euphrates…

    It only illustrates the sheer and utter futility of the US position…

    Really the Turks are much more dangerous right now…if they succeed in taking over Afrin it would be a disaster…but that now seems more remote than ever…

    We must ask…is it really a coincidence that Erdogan launched this latest invasion of Syrian territory right at the same moment in time when the Turkish backed terrorists in Idlib are getting pasted by the SAA and Russian aviation…?

    I hardly think so…

    But here we see that all the stars are lining up now in Syria’s favor…the Idlib rats are getting wiped out…The Turks have made little progress in Afrin…and now as the SAA [supported by Russia] steps in to calm that down…the whole Turkish ‘Olive Branch’ will just be so much kindling for the fire…

    At the same time we have seen Israel reigned in by a firm and resolute Putin…

    I had quoted from this NYT op-ed in my previous technical posts…but the political dimension here is truly revealing…

    ‘…The response to the downing of the Israeli jet was intended to be a lot more violent.

    Israel has long maintained contingency plans for a huge offensive operation in Syria. On Saturday, the generals took them out of the drawer. But the Iranians and the Syrians, along with their Lebanese ally Hezbollah, realized that something like that was in the offing, and let it be known that they would not let it happen without responding. The Israelis heard this, but were not deterred. The Israel Defense Forces went on to a war footing.

    It soon became clear, though, who is calling the shots.

    The Israeli bombardments of the air base had been dangerously close to Russian forces.

    A furious phone call on Saturday morning from President Vladimir Putin of Russia was enough to make Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu of Israel cancel the plans…’

    Let there be no doubt who is calling the shots…and his name starts with VVP…

    • Replies: @Randal
  117. FB says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Thanks Nosey…

    Appreciate the kind words…

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  118. Kurds are the last proxy warriors of USA and so the last reason for US to be there,
    Kurds must lie down their arms.

  119. G. B. says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    EU’s new military pact poses no threat to NATO: Mogherini

    ”The European Union has dismissed a call by the United States “to include in written EU documents” that the North Atlantic Treaty Organization’s (NATO) role in protecting Europe would not be threatened by the EU’s newly-established massive military pact.”

    http://www.presstv.com/Detail/2018/02/16/552574/Mogherini-NATO-Sofia-PESCO-military-pact

  120. @FB

    I really should have said comments such as yours rather than like yours, since there are none like them. Cheers

    • Replies: @FB
  121. wayfarer says:
    @FB

    Interesting insight, thanks.

    Along the same line of inquiry, this appears to be a fascinating read.

    “How Radar Jamming & Deception Changed Warfare FOREVER (Plus Future Trends)”
    source: http://blog.bliley.com/radar-jamming-deception-electronic-warfare

  122. KenH says:

    I hope Putin and Russia craft a much stronger response as they’re starting to lose face and I’m starting to lose respect for them. I do believe these strikes resulting in small Russian losses are indeed intended to punish Russia for their support for Assad without pushing the envelope too far and make them think twice about continued support. I think the U.S. is hoping that Putin will conclude it’s no longer worth the risk of war with the them and just abandon Assad to the wolves.

    If Russia does not answer soon with proportional military responses then I think the U.S. will start upping the ante to see how much more they can humiliate Putin and Russia in the eyes of the allies.

  123. FB says:
    @FB

    Just an additional thought to tie up the loose end regarding the technicalities of that air engagement…

    Specifically regarding that second plane that managed to get away…

    We had heard unconfirmed reports that this was an F15…which was damaged enough to make an emergency landing…

    Obviously any info on this is not going to be made public and would be available only within the IAF community…if there is indeed any truth to the damage part…

    We do know from the Israeli press that this airplane was locked on but made good its escape…if it was indeed an F15 then that is a much more powerful airplane than the single-engine F16…especially that two-seat F16 version which main mission would be ground attack…with a weapons systems officer in the back seat…

    The F15 has a much higher thrust to weight ratio with its two big engines…and it would have a much better shot at escaping a SAM than an F16…

    But in the end it all comes down to the guy sitting in the driver’s seat…even with very little warning of an incoming shot…making the right move in a split second is often the difference…

    • Replies: @renfro
  124. FB says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Thanks again, Nosey…just trying to do my little part here in our collective search for the truth…

  125. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    lolz. Weapons aren’t going to determine what’s going to happen in Syria. Children play with plastic army men, tanks and jet planes and many adults are paid to do the same thing. Line up your army men!

  126. polskijoe says:
    @Byrresheim

    Putin did mention millions of dead/victims under Stalin and said its undeniable what happened.
    I think thats a good step.

    Its called “The Wall of Grief” or something.

    Certainly the Soviets did crimes and did murder millions. But many Westerners and neonazis/neoliberalcons exagerate them.

    Russians like Stalin because he stopped Hitler and did more than scum like Lenin/Trotsky. I believe around 50% of Russian view Stalin positively.
    Yet you will find many Russians also acknowledge he did crimes.

    Ive only seen hardcore Communists deny his crimes.

  127. @The Scalpel

    What Is your analysis of Strelkov/Girkin comments that hundreds or Wagner were killed in US assault?

    Girkin is NOT any reliable source for anything militarily related to Russia. He doesn’t have any qualifications for that.

  128. We had heard unconfirmed reports that this was an F15…which was damaged enough to make an emergency landing…

    Who knows, maybe it was another “bird strike” as with the previous F-35?

    • LOL: FB
  129. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Anon from TN
    You are right, Russian troops were in Crimea by Russian-Ukrainian bilateral agreement, and an overwhelming majority of Crimea residents (more than 80%, as was reluctantly acknowledged by Gallup and German company GfK, based on the polls they conducted after the referendum) wanted to join Russia. In fact, Crimea tried to get out of Ukraine ever since the breakup of the USSR in 1991. As Crimeans put it, in 2014 Russia did not betray them. Of course, there was no violence in Crimea: most people saw Russian solders as liberators. Then again, the situation was similar in Ossetia and Abkhazia: most people saw Georgians as occupiers and Russians as liberators, especially after Georgian troops started the war by shelling Tskhinval (Georgians called it Tskhinvali, which Ossetians saw as one of many affronts) and shooting civilians there.
    What I meant by smearing over the wall in Crimea is that more than 80% of the Ukrainian army personnel stationed in Crimea also switched sides and joined the Russian Army. Ukrainian politicians still feel hurt by this, inventing all sorts of implausible lies.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  130. @polskijoe

    Stalin was brutal, but Trotsky surely would have been worse, and I suspect many Russians recognize this. Even if it was only circumstances that forced Stalin to restore various symbols of Russian culture and nation, Trotsky doubtless would have destroyed these.

    • Agree: polskijoe
  131. @KenH

    I share these concerns but I suspect Putin understands that these attacks amount to, in the scheme of things, annoyances (as much as it would be nice to see the Americans get a dose of their own medicine). This issue is not just about Russia’s legitimate interests in the ME, it is also about defending Russia from subjugation by the Zio-American Imperium. Putin will not let Russia get dragged into a war they are not yet ready for, although I agree he often seems too trusting of the US.

  132. Lobotomized people walking in the wilderness.
    At least Jews kept their wits when they were wondering in the wilderness.

  133. @FB

    The data fusion technique has been developed for low-frequency anti-stealth radars…such as these…

    Facepalm.

    Data-fusion was developed for the averaging of heterogeneous sensors, from radar to optronics, and is profoundly mentioned in Alberts and Garstka large work on Net Centric Warfare.

    http://www.dodccrp.org/files/Alberts_NCW.pdf

    To start with page 144 and table on Sensor Network. Page 151 (Figure. 27) gives a P distribution. It was 20 + years ago.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @yurivku
    , @Eagle Eye
  134. @paullll

    Way to go dude.!

    Let’s see your King of the South do his shit…hey. Its Daniel 8 boy. You have set up your tents between the holy mountain and the sea. Come on big fella its time to lift your dukes up. Drag your sorry carcass to block.

  135. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘…Facepalm…’

    Yeah whatever Martyanov…

    Do you have an actual technical critique here…?

    Didn’t think so…

    The point of my explanation…from which you no doubt learned more than you care to admit…was not the abstract origins of the concept of ‘data fusion’ in general…but simply how it is applied to Russian radar networking…

    Anyway…thanks for the book link…

    Page 142 where it talks about radar data fusion…

    ‘…Sensor fusion enables measurements from two or more sensors to develop a composite track…

    The error ellipsoids that characterize the composite track converge much more rapidly to a level of accuracy that permits engagements (engagement quality awareness) when information from multiple sensors is available and utilized…’

    Basically what I explained quite nicely to the layman audience…

    Anyway…thanks for your helpful attitude…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  136. @KenH

    “War should be avoided whenever possible. A wise leader conserves his military strength.” Sun Tzu

    There’s more… “Victorious warriors win first and then go to war, while defeated warriors go to war first and then seek to win.” (Which one best describes the ZUSA?)

    “There is no instance of a nation benefitting from prolonged warfare.”

    That last one is a bonus one because it’s the one that even American chest-thumpers and fist pumpers (USA! USA! USA!) will come to accept, sooner or later. It’s the same logic by which people quit smoking AFTER they get cancer.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  137. wayfarer says:
    @paullll

    A banquet table, or a poker table where winner takes all.

    One can’t forget that wildcard, China.

    source: https://www.alaraby.co.uk/english/News/2017/11/29/China-to-deploy-Night-Tigers-to-Syria

  138. In the end Russia will be the winner. Russia has so much untapped resources that Russia can sit back and wait. In the end game Russia will have a little competition and it will be able set the prices of resources quite benevolently.

  139. @NoseytheDuke

    In my previous comment I wasn’t suggesting that KenH is a chest-thumper or a fist pumper, I was merely suggesting that Putin’s non response might actually be the stronger response.

  140. Paulv says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    Such garbage. Israel is the US’s Japan of the middle east. Its not all about the Jews.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  141. @polskijoe

    Stalin and the USSR also did more than the US and UK combined to defeat Hitler- the Russians had no choice after being invaded. The Americans and Brits had to travel by plane and ship to get to the ground fighting.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    , @Anon
  142. @Jesse James

    Hitler had no choice after Molotov’s visit to Berlin.

  143. @Paulv

    In 1948 the State Department was strongly against recognising Israel.
    They understood the consequences.
    Truman did recognise on his own.

  144. @polskijoe

    Read
    Morgan Philips Price (edited Tania Rose), ‘Dispatches from the Weimar Republic, Versailles and German Fascism’, London 1999
    starving Ukrainian families on railway stations, desperately trying to sell something in order to get food.

  145. @Byrresheim

    Are USA citizens aware of USA crimes ?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  146. skrik says:
    @FB

    and Syria had every right to target those attacking planes in Israeli airspace…

    That’s good to know, and thanks for the extended explanation – but I would like to point out that your quotes seem to be from the [questionable credibility] MSM – which is not to challenge your account in any way, just saying. The MSM gets their info, presumably, from the [even more questionable credibility] govt. and/or military, who have zero compunction to give us the true story. As all things these [sad] days, we have to evaluate everything. Soo, back to thanking you, and expect to see IDF pilots being a bit more circumspect vis-à-vis Syria?

    • Replies: @FB
  147. renfro says:
    @FB

    Really appreciate you sharing your expertise with us…good job!

    • Replies: @FB
  148. mcohen says:

    The oil and gas dispute in the med between israel and lebanon is starting to heat up with israel refusing russian “assistance” to market its oil and gas citing deals it has with the us.if israel turns into another vietnam with the big powers fighting over resources then i fear that a regional war will not turn out well for syria and lebanon.
    Obviously a deal to force israel to cede by trumps us government will be a stab in the back for israel.one has to wonder how long israel can cope with the present war of attrition and whether jews worldwide will have to step up and defend israel on the battlefield.that time is approaching and i urge jews to consider their options.

  149. yurivku says:
    @Sergey Krieger

    Well, Andrei did not convince me. All his arguments are well known it’s still Putin’s ( and Sun Tzu -) ) clever plan of war. I’m sure that it’s time to put the end of this creeping attack which US, having no resistance are committing, going more and more close to the point of no return.

    But because we (me and Andrei) already thrown all our cards on the desktop – I have no reason to repeat. Now the future will show everything and I don’t think we’ll have to wait long …

  150. hunor says:
    @Haxo Angmark

    Bingo that is the endgame, eliminate the capable goyim , and declare NWO.

  151. yurivku says:
    @AnonFromTN

    That’s true. Know it well having relatives in Crimea.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  152. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    For FB’s aggressive and rude style of bringing knowledge to dark masses and understanding that my English is not good enough to describe such complex technical thing – I would say that all this data fusion stuff probably has nothing to do with S-200.
    At least it has not 25-30 year ago. S-200 SAM being semi-active type shuold lock target before start and has not any possibilities to lock target after launch.

    I can assume that it was modified that way, but knowing well its internal structure I don’t beleive it.
    S-200 all the way to target should use the radar signal reflected from the target. So question why Israelis did not notice it stil is unclear.

    For S-300, s-400 yes, they get periodical trajectory corrections from phase radar and such story could be truethful.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @FB
  153. Randal says:
    @FB

    Well…now we have reports that this deal has been reached…and that SAA troops are expected to enter Afrin within the next 48 hours…

    I was rather sceptical of this when you suggested the other day that it would happen, so I’m somewhat surprised that it does seem to have come to pass (assuming deeds follow the words – not always the case in such matters).

    The reason I was sceptical is that if the Syrians back the Kurds actively (they seem to have been doing so more or less openly but unofficially from the start) in Afrin while the Kurds further east are still in bed with the Yanks, the Syrians lose their main leverage with the Kurds and likely lose the opportunities that would have been created by expansion of Turkish hostilities with the Kurds further east. The risk for the Syrians is that they now get locked into conflict with the Turks in Afrin while the US stays cosily embedded with the Kurds further east.

    It might be that they have a wider deal with the Kurds that involves the expulsion of US influence, but this seems unlikely. I doubt the Kurds in Afrin were yet desperate enough to agree to that, except perhaps on some future “never never” basis whereby they’d kick out the Yanks if and when the Syrians have shown they can successfully see off the Turks. But why trust the Kurds? Once the Turks are out of Afrin, what leverage would the Syrians have any more over the SDF Kurds?

    Surely the best approach would be to let the Kurds in Afrin stew and the conflict with the Turks deepen. Show the Turks out of Idlib but let them sit in Afrin until the Kurds generally are desperate enough to come to proper terms involving the wholesale expulsion of US forces and influence. If to the contrary the Syrians are willing to give up the “Turkish threat” leverage with the Kurds so soon, then it likely means they are confident that they can force the US out by other means probably involving putting pressure on them on the ground.

    Time will tell.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @FB
  154. @yurivku

    For FB’s aggressive and rude style of bringing knowledge

    He also missed in your post who you were and where you studied–but that is expected from him. He mostly spams all kinds of threads dealing even remotely with any weapons systems with open-source information and:

    At least it has not 25-30 year ago. S-200 SAM being semi-active type shuold lock target before start and has not any possibilities to lock target after launch.

    Most likely.

    So question why Israelis did not notice it stil is unclear.

    Because of operating in a dense EW environment with their SPO compromised, most likely.

  155. @FB

    but simply how it is applied to Russian radar networking…

    You obviously never heard of optronic channels which are present in any modern AD system nor, obviously, you understand how sensor networks work. Here is a basic illustration of all Eurofighter sensors involved in eliminating acquisition and targeting uncertainties–a main reason for evolution of sensor (data) fusion.

    Should you have known how Uspekh (1960s) or Legenda (late 1970s on) worked you wouldn’t write this amateur BS, and I quote:

    The data fusion technique has been developed for low-frequency anti-stealth radars…such as these…

    You also, most likely, never heard of other target acquisition, targeting and firing solutions based on means OTHER than radar, such as Liana providing geographic coordinates (among other targeting (TzU)) based on “visuals”. In fact there are some photos of even Legenda from 1980s providing visual tie in with geographic coordinates (lambda, phi) on targets, such as Carrier Battle Group. And, yes, I never-never dealt in my life with sensor fusion.;-) Like absolutely not, especially not on submarines which had and still do complexes which amount to, well, data fusion. I can even give you a hint–they give you uncertainties and probabilities, which, of course, you need to launch such things, among many, as Sea Launched Strategic Ballistic Missiles. But never mind, let’s say that you are right–sensor and data fusion was indeed created for “anti-stealth radar”. LOL.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Aedib
  156. yurivku says:

    He also missed in your post who you were and where you studied–but that is expected from him. He mostly spams all kinds of threads dealing even remotely with any weapons systems with open-source information

    Well, it doesn’t matter actually. I and I did a big mistake in my 1st post when called s-200 as active homing system while it’s semi-active. A lot of time passed.
    But I was once in Kazakhstan where we did training fired on rocket targets twice, two SAMs on each target and did those grounded. My role was to check if SAM is ok befor launch it.

    BTW, this time (1983) there were the only foreigners on poligon and those were Syrians -).
    The speed of those targets were close to real, but I’m not sure about an effective cross section (or what the proper term is). Good trained team always hit the target with the 1st SAM and 2nd SAM usually hit on pieces of target.
    But now when everything changed I’m not sure of those capabilites of S-200 SAMs.

    Because of operating in a dense EW environment with their SPO compromised, most likely.

    Well maybe but I don’t know what SPO stands for.

    But actually my statement is quite different – just *it not a right way to endlessly retreat*.
    It’s a time to fight back and Russia should show her real power.

  157. yurivku says:
    @yurivku

    BTW, this time (1983) there were the only foreigners on poligon and those were Syrians

    Probably I’ve put it badly – I meant that except Russians there were only Syrians.

  158. @yurivku

    what SPO stands for.

    Sistema Passivnogo Obnaruzhenia. Including but not limited to “radiation” alerts.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  159. skrik says:
    @FB

    2nd bite: cui bono?

    IF the IDF was in Syrian airspace THEN they’d hardly [= never!] admit it, since that would unmistakably mean that they would be pleading guilty to aggression.

    Obviously, a big “NO, NO!”

    Sooo, they – and the corrupt&venal, Z-loving MSM+PFBCs – all say the same: The Z-missiles were shot from within Israel, and that’s where the Syrian AA hit them!

    Yeah; sounds about right. The next “sooo” is that the Zs now accept that they can be targeted by Syria [or anyone else the Zs attack, like Gaza, etc.] in their own airspace – and will do nothing – except perhaps show alleged bits of an alleged Iranian drone in the MSC?

    Oh, yeah! Right on! Go, Zs! – Directly into the dustbin of history…

    • Replies: @RobinG
  160. FB says:
    @skrik

    ‘…but I would like to point out that your quotes seem to be from the [questionable credibility] MSM…’

    Not really…I pointed to this article by former British diplomat Alistair Crooke in the online journal Strategic Culture Foundation…which I believe is a Russian alternative media outfit…

    It is Crooke… a regular contributor to Strategic Culture… who relates the shootdown scenario as described by Alex Fishman in Hewbrew in the Israeli newspaper Ydioth Ahoronot…Fishman is one of Israel’s top defense and intelligence writers and is well trusted by his IDF sources…

    I also quoted another Israeli defense journalist…also with the same paper…but writing an op-ed in the NYT…as well as an article in English in the Times of Israel…

    This is the best we can do in terms of getting close to the story…I don’t know what you would suggest…?

    The Israeli press is actually a hell of a lot more honest than the US toilet paper…these guys are seasoned defense writers who are not going to pull any punches…

    In any case…their story makes sense…we don’t have any statements from Syria that those jets actually entered Syrian airspace…and we know for a fact that the Israelis have been lobbing missiles into Syria from outside its airspace for months now…ever since that incident where Syria fired at Israeli jets bugging out back to Israel…

    And Israel thinking they were safe doing this lobbing from outside Syria and that the Syrians wouldn’t fire on them unless they invaded their airspace…

    Well they were proven wrong…and the upshot is that Israel got a spanking…and if you read my follow on comments you would know that Israel had been planning full out war in retaliation…but Putin said ‘Nyet’…

    So I think this covers it…I have devoted considerable time and effort to your issue…

    • Replies: @skrik
  161. There is possibility that end game in Syria has already started.

    https://www.rt.com/news/419177-us-safety-zone-syria/

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  162. FB says:
    @renfro

    Thanks Renfro…glad the info was interesting and possibly of some use…

  163. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @yurivku

    Anon from TN
    I know people in Crimea, too. Besides, I visited it in 2015. What’s more, I have friends and relatives in many parts of Ukraine, in Lvov, Kiev, Lugansk (Lugansk People’s Republic now), Kharkov region, etc. Sane people in Ukraine know that Crimea never was Ukrainian and never will be.
    There is a popular joke in Ukraine: “We were told that when Putin comes everything will come crashing down. Everything came crashing down, but where is Putin?”

    • Replies: @yurivku
  164. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Anon from TN
    The term “aware” applies to no more than 5-10% of the US citizens. The rest can’t find any of the countries in the news on the map. School education is so dismal that most people sincerely believe that the world consists of three roughly equal parts: Main Street, out-of-town, and overseas. American classic is “How do you spell it correctly, Iran or Iraq?” It is no accident that CNN “journalists” placed Ukraine somewhere in Pakistan on air. Trump’s “Nambia” is another good example. Most people in the US don’t even know that Gambia or Zambia exist.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  165. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    There is possibility that end game in Syria has already started.

    Depends on what you define as the end game.

    • Replies: @yurivku
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
  166. yurivku says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I with my family visited Crimea right after the liberation happened in 2014.And I shared this smell of freedom which was widely spread overthere this time. People were happy so were us.

  167. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The French basically said; well that sucks. And packed it up and left.

    The question is, would we do the same? Reagan pulled the Marines out of Lebanon because he realized the craziness of the situation, but I’m not sure the people in charge of US policy know what the words “exit strategy” or “de-escalation” mean.

    It’s like someone walked into an insane asylum, left a pile of loaded weapons on the ground and proceeded to turn off the lights.

    Peace.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
  168. FB says:
    @Randal

    ‘…The reason I was sceptical is that if the Syrians back the Kurds actively (they seem to have been doing so more or less openly but unofficially from the start) in Afrin while the Kurds further east are still in bed with the Yanks, the Syrians lose their main leverage with the Kurds and likely lose the opportunities that would have been created by expansion of Turkish hostilities with the Kurds further east…

    That’s the problem right there…

    Do we actually know that the Turks ever had any intention of taking their fight against the SDF further east…or was this just bluff and bluster…?

    What we do know for a fact is that Erdogan has been openly touting his plan for resettling Afrin with its ‘rightful owners’…these presumably being the several million jihadist-symp0athizer ‘refugees’ sitting in Turkey…

    I pointed earlier to this excellent article…

    Turkey Establishing Long-Sought US “Safe Haven” in Northern Syria…

    This would be a nightmare scenario for Syria…as the Turks would never leave especially once they have a popular base there of Salafist-supporting public resettled there…

    Look at what is happening in the area between Afrin and Manbij which Turkey took over during its ‘Operation Euphrates Shield’…the schools are teaching the kids Turkish…the post office and other public services us Turkish as the official language etc…

    We recall that Erdogan started Euphrates Shield invasion of Syria right after the publicized kiss and make up with Putin…

    I seriously doubt Putin green-lighted this invasion…but whatever deal they made…having to do with bringing Turkey into the Astana process…which is a genuine diplomatic win for Putin and Syria…Erdog took maximum advantage…and I believe he blindsided Putin with that invasion…

    There is a common but in my view misplaced idea that Turkey is now somehow aligned with Russia…or even somehow under Putin’s control…

    This is very dangerous thinking…Erdogan still supports the head-choppers in Idlib and recently announced he will fund Ahrar al Sham and other terrorist groups that used to receive US bucks…but were cut off last December…

    Bringing the Afrin Kurds into the Syrian tent is a very good thing…

    As for what’s going to happen going forward with the rest of the SDF controlled area where the US is calling the shots…well time will tell as you say…but clearly the US position there is unsustainable…that Kurdish enclave has no chance to be viable in any way…

    Also we must lrecall that most of the territory of the Euphrates Valley belongs to Arab tribes…not Kurds…who are concentrated mostly along the border with Turkey…across from their Kurdish brethern there…

    There is little love lost between those Arabs and the Kurds…and some are just barely in that SDF ‘caolition’ by name only…

    This actually includes the tribes who have control of the oil and gas fields…the Koniko [Conoco] field is being held by a tribe that has been in negotiation for quite a while with the Syrian gov’t about handing over control of the field and gas infrastructure there…

    That handover was what was actually taking place when the US pulled that air strike massacre on the Al Bakari tribe…who were those pro-Syrian fighters mentioned in all the news reports…

    Bottom line is that taking Erdogan at his word is a fool’s game…I personally have no doubt that he never intended to attack Manbij or anything further east…his troops are already right next to Manbij in that Euphrates Shield area…why didn’t he hit at Manbij first…or at the same time…?

    It’s BS…Erdogan taking Afrin and setting up a terrorist ‘Safe Haven’ there that would undermine the Syrian state is probably the only point of agreement between Turkey and the US…

    To think otherwise is naive…

  169. skrik says:
    @FB

    devoted considerable time and effort

    I agree and I am thankful, also for the bits of your oeuvre ‘in here.’ Meanwhile, I posted a ’2nd bite’ some hours ago.

    I think that you and I share something: “our collective search for the truth.” thnx & rgds

  170. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    I’m afraid she’s using the generator of random sentences when commenting everything everywhere

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  171. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Martyanov…your petulance is on full display…

    Like I said…do you actually have a technical critique on what I said about that air engagement…?

    If so let’s hear it…otherwise stop wasting everyone’s time with obscure nonsense that has nothing to do with the subject at hand…ie how those ‘obsolete’ S200s managed to sneak up on the Israeli jets…

    Maybe you would like to offer your explanation…here is your chance…we are all waiting to hear your massive expertise…

    As for what I said about data fusion…it is absolutely correct…

    ‘…The data fusion technique has been developed for low-frequency anti-stealth radars…such as these…’

    That is 100 percent correct…please read those words…

    I never said nor implied in any way that this was the first application of data fusion…I only stated a correct fact that the Nebo SVU anti-stealth radar complex has been developed on the principle of data fusion…

    So stop your silly games…who could possibly take you seriously at this point…?

    You have an axe to grind with me because I debunked your silly article of several months ago where you claimed that the US would use a massive tomahawk salvo to knock out Russia’s integrated air defense system in Syria…

    Something only a total amateur would say…not knowing a single thing about SEAD [suppression of enemy air defenses]…or how that works…

    Now here you are sniping at me for giving folks here a good discussion…many of which have been kind enough to say ‘thanks’…

    You really should be ashamed of this childish behavior…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  172. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanx, now I see why I did not find this abbreviation in English list.

  173. RobinG says:
    @skrik

    “…… the Zs now accept that they can be targeted by Syria [or anyone else the Zs attack, like Gaza, etc.] in their own airspace – and will do nothing ….”

    Except that Israel bombed Gaza last week (after their jet loss), and no doubt are planning to ‘mow the grass’ again in the Spring.

    https://www.timesofisrael.com/israeli-jets-hit-gaza-after-overnight-rocket-attack/

    “Directly into the dustbin of history…” Well, a spiraling descent.

    • Replies: @skrik
  174. FB says:
    @yurivku

    ‘…For FB’s aggressive and rude style of bringing knowledge to dark masses…’

    What’s your problem…?

    I don’t remember ever even addressing you…I was responding to Avery in my #112…and I am only ever rude and aggressive with the neo-Nazis here…

    ‘…S-200 all the way to target should use the radar signal reflected from the target. So question why Israelis did not notice it stil is unclear…’

    Well…since you are so smart…why don’t you clear that up for us…?

    ‘…I would say that all this data fusion stuff probably has nothing to do with S-200.
    At least it has not 25-30 year ago…’

    Fine…that’s your opinion…and you back that up with what exactly…?

    In any case…I did not claim that data fusion was definitely involved here…I said this…

    ‘…So that is the possible technical explanation as to how a supposedly ‘obsolete’ S200 [service entry 1967] was able to bring down one of two Israeli warplanes it targeted…and at quite an impressive range…’

    And even before offering this explanation…I prefaced it as a ‘prospective’ technique…

    Unlike yourself…I adhere strictly to the scientific method…ie rely only on known facts…and present anything that is not a known fact as merely a possibility

    ‘…S-200 SAM being semi-active type shuold lock target before start and has not any possibilities to lock target after launch…’

    Any SAM missile can be launched ballistically…ie without any radar guidance whatsoever…the Serbs made hundreds of ballistic barrages from their 1950s era S125…and quite effectively…denying certain flight routes to the attacking aircraft…while not emitting radio signals and giving away their location…

    I also mentioned this fact…

    ‘…Further evolution of the S-300P design took place between 1995 and 1997, yielding the S-300PMU2/SA-10E Favorit system, later redesignated SA-20 Gargoyle, intended to compete directly against the Antey S-300V and Patriot PAC-2/3 systems as an Anti-Ballistic Missile system.

    The Favorit incorporates incrementally upgraded 30N6E2 Tomb Stone engagement radar.

    The Favorit’s new command post has the capability to control S-300PMU / SA-10, S-300PMU1 / SA-20 batteries, and also S-200VE/SA-5 Gammon batteries, relaying coordinates and commands to the 5N62VE Square Pair guidance and illumination radar…’

    We can safely assume that subsequent generations have only increased these capabilities…

    We also know this fact…

    ‘…Today, a unified integrated air defense system has been set up in Syria.

    We have ensured the information and technical interlinkage of the Russian and Syrian air reconnaissance systems.

    All information on the situation in the air comes from Syrian radar stations to the control points of the Russian force grouping…’

    …Russian Aerospace Forces Major-General Sergey Meshcheryakov…

    So we know that Russian radars are networked in Syria…and we know that the modern S300/400 system can command the S200 batteries…

    But you insist on arguing that the S200 is only able to operate as a standalone system as in 30 years ago…

    I do not know…nor does anyone outside the technical IADS operators in Syria…how exactly these various systems have been interlinked…and what operation procedures are possible…

    So we certainly cannot state with confidence what you said about the S200 not being able to lock at any point after launch…

    They are being controlled by the S300/400 command post…so you and anyone else is sepculating 100 percent when you say things with flat certainty…

    In any case any missile shot may lose lock at any time during flight and subsequently regain it…it depends on the proficiency of the operator…

    All we know is the result…S200 rockets took down one F16…apparently with little prior warning…[again...please explain that with your own theory] …

    And the second plane targeted was reportedly also hit…a very good result…and this at quite long range…

    So those results speak of a very effective SAM combat performance…a kill percentage of 50 percent…not even counting the second damaged plane…which could well be written off for all we know…

    And this against very good Israeli pilots…flying equipment with sophisticated warning and ECM…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @yurivku
  175. @FB

    I never said nor implied in any way that this was the first application of data fusion…I only stated a correct fact that the Nebo SVU anti-stealth radar complex has been developed on the principle of data fusion

    Really, but I think it is you who said that, surely not me, right? I quote you.

    ‘…The data fusion technique has been developed for low-frequency anti-stealth radars…such as these…’

    I repeat again. Data Fusion technique has been developed decades before there ever was any Nebo-M and it has nothing, zero to do with the band-width or specific radar, since it is primarily signal processing and mathematics issue.

    Read attentively what data fusion is. Say from here, from one of the professionals:

    http://fusion.isif.org/proceedings/fusion99CD/C-148.pdf?

    I’ll help you a bit by quoting this:

    Data fusion is very important and useful for target recognition and tracking. A system with multi-sensors can fuse data from different sensors to overcome the limitations in the system with single sensor, it can make use of the complementary and redundancy of data from different sensors to improve the precision and robustness of target recognition and tracking. Data fusion at characteristic level can combine characteristics from different sensors to improve the ability of target recognition

    In pure “radar” the so called “data fusion” is based on using different frequencies and ESM (Electronic Support Measures–such as providing targeting on “radiating” targets, passive) which are provided with the so called extrasystemic radar systems which have been in use since hell knows when. S-300 are designed as such and once digital processing capabilities reached ability to process large data arrays–around mid 1980s–every single AD system in Russia was effectively moved into data fusion paradigm. Nebo-M is not “Anti-stealth” it is just by the nature of its design it is capable to cover a huge array of targets, including hypersonic and ballistic ones, be them stealth or not. But so is S-400 is “anti-stealth”, and so is S-300. All modern radar, and sonar, and optronic systems are developed on “data fusion” principles everywhere–from ships to aircraft, to Air Defense. Most modern specifically Russian systems since late 1980s are created with this “data fusion” and extrasystemic capability which is a defining feature of whole Russian Air Defense. So all major Russian AD complexes are by definition “anti-stealth” (well, Nebo in particular is also scanning the near space) and “data fusion” capable since use multiple sensors, from variety of band-widths from different emitters-receivers, to ESM and other sensor capability.

    Now here you are sniping at me for giving folks here a good discussion…many of which have been kind enough to say ‘thanks’…

    I am not “sniping” at you but you certainly create a lot of informational noise with a lot of this noise being a fanboy copy-paste from different open pop-sources with much of it being booklets for arms exhibitions. But I think you don’t get it.

    Something only a total amateur

    I agree, I am a total amateur. ;-)

    P.S. Google Protivnik GE.

    • Replies: @FB
  176. @Andrei Martyanov

    I did decide not to engage in discussions on the site. And I am still faithful to this opinion.
    I was only enticing people to read that article with Lavrov’s declaration.
    In my opinion we are back to square one. I was watching an interview with Brennon, formal CIA chef.
    He was quite worrying about one thing only. That was there is possibility of increasing oil prices and by that increasing the influence of Russia. We do not know many things,
    But my guess will be that the fracking for oil in US is not really fulfilling the projected expectations.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  177. @FB

    What’s your problem…? I don’t remember ever even addressing you

    Did you communicate with holy spirit here?

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/escalation-in-syria-how-far-can-the-russians-be-pushed/#comment-2209053

    I can see why you may not remember things but you sure as hell tried to teach former AD professional and former Baumanka student (you probably can not even grasp what it is) by pasting a shit load of pop-sci facts and a bunch of your, mostly, incompetent speculations. I find it not only being problematic but, to be frank, really funny too.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Sergey Krieger
  178. skrik says:
    @RobinG

    Except that Israel bombed Gaza last week (after their jet loss),

    Yeah, well. OK; I ‘forgot’ that Gaza doesn’t have an AA system like Syria now does. In fact, as most of us know, Gaza is pretty-much – err, totally disarmed [apart from a few home-made 'penny' rockets, say]. So the Zs can attack at will, which they do. The BIG Q is why the rest of the world lets the Zs get away with it? – Mass murder to steal Lebensraum, for which mainly the US hanged many German ‘commanders’ after WW2? After which, many German scientists and technicians were moved to the US (Operation Paper Clip). After which, the US continued to build the world’s greatest military, which could stomp on the Zs any day of the week [to protect freedom and democracy, don't you know?] But they don’t; rather, they attack and destroy the Zs’ enemies, like Syria, say, or Libya, altogether the WC7in5, say. So the world’s greatest military [= US], and the world’s bravest, most honourable military [= Zs], team up to mass-murder basically helpless, innocent people, to steal those innocents’ resources, or just to be ‘hegemons’ [= biggest dicks on the block?]

    Great! That ‘spiraling’ could rattle its dags. rgds

  179. FB says:
    @Randal

    Further to my previous comment #170…

    Turkey is now backpedaling on its threats to invade Manbij…where the US troops are stationed…and conveniently after the Tillerson visit…

    ‘…Commenting on the possibility of a standoff with the US-backed Kurdish forces on the ground, he expressed hope that there would be no need to extend the offensive to Manbij, as all existing issues might be solved through dialogue…’

    Why am I not surprised…?

    At the same time Turkey has reacted furiously to the news of SAA entering Afrin…in that same sputnik article linked to above…

    So the picture is now crystal clear…

    1. The Turks and US are one the same page about Turkey taking over Afrin and creating a terrorist ‘Safe Haven’ that will undermine Syria…and possibly irreversibly fracture the country…with the Turks basically taking over northern Syria and staying forever…

    2. There will be no US-Turkey conflict in Manbij or anywhere else in Syria…ie the Turks and US are working hand in hand…only Putin is supposed to be the dummy…

    Well…the good thing is that it’s not going to work…Putin is no dummy and he will yank Erdog’s leash at the time of his choosing…just as he has yanked Netanyahoo’s leash in the last few days…

    • Replies: @Randal
  180. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Look Martyanov…don’t try to impress me with your pseudo-credentials…I know a total dweeb when I see one…

    You can brag all you want but you would not even get a five minute audience with me or my colleagues in person if you lived another 100 years…

    You have no idea who you are dealing with…and I post here for the benefit of the readers…many of whom appreciate my comments…not dweebs like you or Yurivku…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @yurivku
  181. Aedib says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Gentlemen, data fusion is a tool with a lot of applications. I used some data fusion algorithms in early 2000s to know what the hell was going on inside a bioreactor by fusing measurements from gas analyzers, electrodes and data from laboratory analysis. Anyway, is cool to know that it is used as an anti-stealth tool. Your discussion and arguments are awesome and extremely interesting.

  182. @FB

    but you would not even get a five minute audience with me or my colleagues in person if you lived another 100 years…

    I am so disappointed, how can I continue to live now? I was desperately planning on audience with you and your colleagues in person for years now. You, dream-crusher. Absolutely inhumane.

    • LOL: Twodees Partain
  183. @Aedib

    Gentlemen, data fusion is a tool with a lot of applications. I used some data fusion algorithms in early 2000s to know what the hell was going on inside a bioreactor by fusing measurements from gas analyzers

    Exactly, the whole data-fusion thing is a TOOL. It, naturally, has a wide range of applications in military field.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  184. @Andrei Martyanov

    I am reading you guys with great interest. It is technical stuff but looks like it determines how things on the ground in Syria and beyond will develop. Baumanka gives immediate attention. Even to get accepted there was a fit which only few and the best could achieve and bro graduate….

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  185. @Aedib

    Agree with you.

    Some of the technical data presented by FB can be found here:

    http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-Rus-Low-Band-Radars.html#Protivnik_GE

    I’d like to post two quotes from this page:

    1. “The idea of integrating three radars, each operating in a discrete band, is novel and clearly intended to provide a counter-VLO (very low observability – i.e. stealth) capability. A track fusion system in the KU (command unit) vehicle will be required ….”

    2. “The Nebo-M system is clearly designed to hunt the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter. The VHF-Band component of the system provides sector search and track functions, with the X-Band and L-Band components providing a fine track capability. By good placement of the radars relative to the threat axis, the L-Band and X-Band components illuminate the incoming target from angles where the target RCS is suboptimal. Attempts to jam the Nebo-M will be problematic, since all of these radars have a passive angle track capability against jammers, as a result of which usage of a jammer permits passive triangulation of the target using three angle track outputs. The RLM-S and RLM-D have better elevation tracking accuracy than the RLM-M, and therefore the Nebo M should be capable of producing high quality tracks suitable for midcourse guidance of modern SAMs and full trajectory guidance of legacy SAMs.”

    The conclusion in the last sentence of the second paragraph is very interesting, indeed.

    Anyway, I’d also like to thank all, especially FB, for providing an interesting, real event specific, narrative that incorporated the the above, otherwise, very dry technical data (with this I don’t imply that now we know for sure what happened).

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Andrei Martyanov
    , @FB
  186. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Look Martyanov…

    I don’t have time to play games with a dweeb…

    I challenged you to come up with a technical critique on several occasions but you have failed to do so…

    Instead you respond with all kinds of ‘chaff’ that is meaningless gibberish…this is what I expect from a person of your caliber…

    Your statement about all networked sensor systems…including radar…being by definition ‘data fusion’ is so vague as to be meaningless…

    You have diverted my discussion into a confusing morass where you want to argue word definitions…well I don’t want to play such silly games…

    My whole point was to try to tackle a technical problem of interest to readers here…how did the ‘obsolete’ Syrian S200 manage to sneak up on a top-notch Israeli pilot flying very good equipment…?

    Your histrionics here have not advanced that discussion by one millimeter…

    My mention of the Nebo multiband radar complex was done for a specific purpose…to illustrate how Russian networking doctrine can operate very flexibly in terms of guiding the missile to its target…

    According to Dr. Karlo Kopp…an acknowledged radar expert…in his technical analysis of the Nebo SVU…

    ‘…the [Nebo] radar has the required performance to cue an X-band 30N6E series engagement radar.

    If these systems are all networked following current Russian practice, the battery’s 54K6E series command post can launch the missiles remotely and datalink them to the aimpoint through most of the flight trajectory.

    When near enough, the missile switches to its own terminal homing seeker to complete the engagement…’

    That is exactly the possible scenario I described…in my #112…

    ‘…It is not clear how far the Russians have taken this concept…but the implication is obvious…using a number of radars in different locations that are datalinked together…it is possible to guide a missile shot to at least get close enough without having to lock on and give itself away…’

    And…

    ‘…The upshot of all this is that the onboard radar on the S200 can be turned off until the very last moment…it turns on only when it is close enough that the kill is assured…and the reaction time is minimized…’

    Again…I am not saying that this is what happened here…but I am confirming what is known as fact…as stated in Kopp’s comment above…and that a similar technique could have been used here…

    As for the Protivnik GE…please stop wasting time and making useless diversions…

    This L-band 3D surveillance radar was introduced in 1999…but has since been evolved into an AESA [active electronically scanned array] model that is part of the Nebo M complex I described to begin with…and is seen here in the foreground…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  187. @Sergey Krieger

    Baumanka gives immediate attention.

    Said Aminov, probably the best Russian language open-source resource on Air Defense issues, is also Baumanka graduate. But then again, Baumanka was and is a true crucible for best military-industrial engineering cadres in Russia.

  188. Randal says:
    @FB

    Well I look around today and I wonder what the situation really is. There’s no sign yet of any action by the Syrians, and no confirmation by the Kurds – in fact the BBC reported tonight that the YPG has denied any deal, contradicting previous reports of a Kurdish confirmation.

    I remain of the view that the last thing the Syrians will want is to be fighting the Turks in effect to protect the US/Kurdish deal. The concern for the Syrians is probably that the Turks are doing rather too well in Afrin.

    Certainly the Turks are out for themselves, not aligned with either US or Russian interests in Syria. The reason they are going for Afrin first before addressing the US-backed Kurds is mainly I suspect to put off the confrontation with the US which is more problematic for them than one with Syria and Russia. If they can get Afrin tied up, then they will likely move to put more pressure on the Kurds further east.

    The hope for Syria is that it would prove impossible to contain the fighting in Afrin despite the undoubted massive pressure from the US on both Turks and Kurds to avoid escalation in the east.

    We’ll see whether there will be an open confrontation between Syrian and Turkish forces in Afrin. I think if there is it will be a desperation move by the Syrians. Probably better in the long run for them to effectively (not formally, obviously) cede Afrin for the moment. They’ve got other fish to fry further south and east at the moment, and then Idlib will likely be the next item on the menu.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  189. Randal says:
    @yurivku

    It’s a time to fight back and Russia should show her real power.

    Well for a start it would be useful to put the little yapping French poodle back into its box:

    French neocon tries to adopt American-style lawless militarism

    Macron said last May that the use of chemical weapons would represent a “red line”. In a telephone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin on Friday expressed concern over signs that chlorine bombs had been used against civilians in Syria.

    “On chemical weapons, I set a red line and I reaffirm that red line,” Macron told reporters. “If we have proven evidence that chemical weapons proscribed in treaties are used, we will strike the place where they are made.”

    I hope Putin said straight out that French jets launching clearly illegal attacks on Syria in supposed response to supposed “chemical weapons use” will be shot down.

    Imo a public statement to that effect from Russia would have been beneficial. This idea that supposed chemical weapons uses and other “humanitarian” pretexts justify unilateral war needs to be stamped upon, unless the Russians have given up on it in the face of US lawlessness and are simply resigned to using it themselves when convenient.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @yurivku
  190. FB says:
    @Simpleguest

    Thank you for bringing some real data to the discussion…that is what I was hoping for…

    Yes…the page you linked to is from Dr. Karlo Kopp…a widely recognized expert on radar and Russian weapons systems in particular…

    That excerpt you quoted is at near the bottom of that long page you pointed to… under the heading ‘Multiband Radars’…and talks specifically about the Nebo M…which I have mentioned repeatedly…

    ‘…A track fusion system in the KU vehicle will be required, providing a capability analogous to the US Navy CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability)system…

    This technology was previously developed for the Salyut Poima E track fusion system and is now becoming mature…’

    That being in 2008…

    So what we see here…and what you pointed out is what I have been speculating also…this type of data fusion with the networked radars…[they don't necessarily need to be the specific ones in the Nebo complex...there is no reason why the same data fusion scheme would not work with other radar models...]

    …is that this is indeed a plausible modernization / upgrade path for legacy SAM batteries…and could conceivably provide the kind of impressive combat effectiveness on display in that air engagement under discussion…

    I have been careful to state that neither I nor anyone I know are privy to these tightly kept technical details…but I believe the discussion has been fruitful…

    [Of course that hasn't stopped some here from jumping in with combative statements and attempts to sow confusion rather than clarity...]

  191. Your statement about all networked sensor systems…including radar…being by definition ‘data fusion’ is so vague as to be meaningless…

    Ah, OK, now it is meaningless. But wasn’t it you who stated, and I quote, again:

    I never said nor implied in any way that this was the first application of data fusion…I only stated a correct fact that the Nebo SVU anti-stealth radar complex has been developed on the principle of data fusion

    I merely posit here that anyone who writes this amateurish crap has no idea, as it is the case with you, what he is talking about. “Data fusion” has been around for decades and every single Russian AD system which was developed is “capable” of “data fusion”. Again, by having specific algorithms and processing hardware I can unify several old S-125 with their ancient radar, plus get some other old AD systems into network and thus will create a situation with numerous sensors being “fused” in delivering their data–this whole thing was around for a while. Has ancient S-125 quoting you “been developed on the principle of data fusion” (c)? No. Yet, it can be fairly easily and inexpensively “integrated” to a C3 system which will be able to provide “data fusion”. Hell, throw in some other systems here. It is often goes in the media as “integrated” defense. I do not expect you to understand but, hey, no harm in trying. Here is the paper which discusses three cooperating radar involved in real time data-fusion. Each radar IS a separate sensor.

    https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/273e/01106624c4691534fcedcd0b7d142977016f.pdf

    Here is quote:

    Furthermore, the goal of data fusion is to operate on a combination of radar sensor measurements, features, track states, and object type and identification likelihoods to produce a single integrated air picture of the air space to a high degree of accuracy. Technologies that enable this synergistic fusion and interpretation of data at several levels from disparate, distributed radars and other sensors should enhance system acquisition, tracking and discrimination of threat objects in a cluttered environment and provide enhanced battle space awareness.

    If you pretend to know AD, as evidently you are trying to appear, then you should know that ALL modern Russian AD complexes are in effect legos since have the ability to be integrated in a network with any of them capable of data-fusion. Even in the initial stages of Russian interference in Syria with S-400 and S-300 being deployed there–I can tell you one thing for sure, they were immediately integrated, together with numerous Pantsyr systems into UNIFIED battle-space. I would assume that initially the whole thing was run through first S-400. Just to give you another “data fusion” sense–once A-50 would go on station both operators in A-50 and S-400, 300 network would see practically the same picture on displays of Operations Officers. But I don’t want to go into CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capabilities) since you are having trouble distinguishing between data-fusion “techniques” and Nebo whatever radar. Read an excellent and concise paper I gave a link to. But, whatever. ;-)

  192. @Simpleguest

    The Nebo-M system is clearly designed to hunt the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter.

    S-400 alone can deal with F-35 just fine. But it is a long story of explaining what is this Ps in the numerator of the Main Radar Equation. The phrase is a complete off the wall statement. Nebo was developed for, read here–it is in English–for a whole range of targets, including VLO. It was also designed for detection of ballistic and hypersonic targets.

    • Replies: @FB
  193. FB says:
    @Simpleguest

    Just want to add one more thought on that last sentence you drew attention to…

    ‘…the Nebo M should be capable of producing high quality tracks suitable for midcourse guidance of modern SAMs and full trajectory guidance of legacy SAMs…’

    That is really quite interesting…

    I had been describing a possible scenario where the onboard S200 seeker takes over near the target…but this tantalizing proposition is even more interesting…

    Ie…guiding the ‘legacy’ missile right to the target…without ever turning on its own seeker…

    Well…if that is possible…and it works…then certainly that would provide for a very stealthy missile approach to the target airplane…and possibly zero warning of any kind onboard the target aircraft…

  194. @FB

    I don’t have time to play games with a dweeb…

    OK, then play it with Foxtrot Alpha and I quote them about S-400:

    The S-400 can use multiple types of missiles, and can integrate with various sensor systems including older radars designed for later versions of the S-300 system. This trial appeared to test the system in a mobile expeditionary fashion, not where the S-400 unit is one of many surface-to-air missile systems and sensors that are tied together into a integrated air defense system (IADS).

    https://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/heres-russias-s-400-missile-system-in-action-and-heres-1746490022

    You see, S-400 can do this too. And so can later versions of S-300–you know, “data fusion”. But OK, I surrender.

    • Replies: @FB
  195. EugeneGur says:
    @Byrresheim

    Again and again I am astonished by the complete lack of russian awareness of stalinist crimes.

    This is the silliest thing to say and can only be explain by you complete ignorance. The Russians themselves denounces the crimes. Hundreds and hundreds of books have been published in Russia on the subject. The discussion of the matter has been going in our society in public and in private as long as I can remember. We’ve had theater plays, museum exhibition, historical studies, TV programs devotes to these events – you name it, we’ve had it. How much more awareness do you expect, talks about this every day at dinner?

    I think by the lack of awareness you mean that we don’t swallow everything the West throws at us, like “Stalin murdered millions”, “Stalin was worse than Hitler”, “Stalin murdered more people than anyone else” and similar garbage. We want to know the real numbers and real events, not fairy tales invented for specific political purposes.

    a bit less noise about so called nazis and fascists

    We remember well what the policy of not making noises once led to. So with your permission or without it, we’ll continue making noises, for nobody else seems to be willing to. You all appear perfectly fine with the Nazis.

    • Agree: RobinG, FB
    • Replies: @yurivku
  196. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Well Martyanov…now you are really making a laughingstock of yourself…

    Attacking everyone in sight…including a thoughtful contributor here who happened to do some digging for himself and unfortunately [and probably unintentionally] debunked your earlier BS directed at me…

    At least he was polite enough not to imply that you are blowing hot air…

    Your temperament is the problem here…you do appear to have some technical knowledge…but your style of debate is the cat-fight mode…

    You chose to muddy the waters about data fusion only to attack me…that is not a legitimate way to conduct technical debate…

    Your word games about data fusion are not doing anyone any good…

    Yes your statement about networking = data fusion is incorrect…

    Networking by itself is not data fusion…

    MiG31s were probably the first aircraft to have networked radars…30 years ago…but they were sharing radar data…not creating a composite target track as in data fusion…[although they may have evolved that capability by now...which would certainly make sense...]

    Same for Flankers directed by S300/400 radars on a ground course intercept to an enemy aircraft that does not yet show up on their onboard radar screen…

    Data fusion depends entirely on how intelligently the data processing system is architected…

    It takes time to develop these techniques…it takes real smarts on the part of the designers to develop those algorithms and software that is going to take data feeds from many different sensors and combine that in a way that is powerful and useful…

    This did not instantly happen as soon as two radars were data linked to one another…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  197. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    OMG…Tyler Rogoway…?

    Are you for real…?

    This guy has zero technical credentials of any kind…I doubt he could solve a right triangle…

  198. If the Russians actually “knew the enemy” (as Sun Tzu would advise), and they truly understood what was motivating the enemy, and the enemy’s goal, accordingly, they would launch everything they have in a surprise nuclear attack.

    I remember Putin making public statements (maybe it was back in 2011?) to the effect that the U.S. government would never be complicit in the 9/11 attacks, or something like that. If this is still his view then he has learned NOTHING, and he will suffer for it.

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @CanSpeccy
  199. pyrrhus says:
    @Anonymous

    Assuming that you are n9t being sarcastic, with what?

  200. Avery says:
    @Harold Smith

    {I remember Putin making public statements……}

    You can’t be serious: you actually think Putin would make public statements about what he actually knows or believes?

    {If the Russians actually “knew the enemy”……they would launch everything they have in a surprise nuclear attack.}

    Again: you can’t be serious.
    There is no such thing as ‘surprise nuclear attack’ when it comes to either US or RF.
    And in any case, even if (theoretically) Russia achieved total surprise and wiped out every US land based missile and nuke bomber, cruise missiles etc on the ground, and destroyed US, the US boomer fleet will remain intact and will also destroy Russia in a counter strike.

    Nobody wins.
    We all die.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  201. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    I remember Putin making public statements (maybe it was back in 2011?) to the effect that the U.S. government would never be complicit in the 9/11 attacks, or something like that. If this is still his view then he has learned NOTHING, and he will suffer for it.

    Governments blowing up high-rise towers and their occupants to promote a political agenda is not something the Russian Government is ever likely to want to discuss.

    • Replies: @FB
  202. FB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Hey thanks for that piece of ‘journalism’ from that fountain of credibility…GQ magazine…[har har...]

    Of course it was Putin that blew up those apartment buildings in Russia…the ol’ false flag and all…

    Of course the CIA sponsored Jihadists trying to take over Chechnya were too nice to do something like that…

    They only ever took over a school and killed a few hundred kids…a theater and killed a few hundred more innocents…a hospital…etc etc…

    But blowing up an apartment building…why that’s a step too far…

    Here’s William Engdahl on how Russia’s intel knows all about the CIA running terrorists into Chechnya…

    ‘…On April 26 Russia’s main national TV station, Rossiya 1, featured President Vladimir Putin in a documentary to the Russian people on the events of the recent period including the annexation of Crimea, the US coup d’etat in Ukraine, and the general state of relations with the United States and the EU. His words were frank. And in the middle of his remarks the Russian former KGB chief dropped a political bombshell that was known by Russian intelligence two decades ago.

    Putin stated bluntly that in his view the West would only be content in having a Russia weak, suffering and begging from the West, something clearly the Russian character is not disposed to.

    Then a short way into his remarks, the Russian President stated for the first time publicly something that Russian intelligence has known for almost two decades but kept silent until now, most probably in hopes of an era of better normalized Russia-US relations.

    Putin stated that the terror in Chechnya and in the Russian Caucasus in the early 1990’s was actively backed by the CIA and western Intelligence services to deliberately weaken Russia. He noted that the Russian FSB foreign intelligence had documentation of the US covert role without giving details…’

    You’re just a simple Russia hater…seen ‘em all before…

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  203. “Governments blowing up high-rise towers and their occupants to promote a political agenda is not something the Russian Government is ever likely to want to discuss.”

    But Putin DID actually “discuss” it. He could’ve given some kind of an ambiguous reply (IIRC he was responding to a question at a forum somewhere). He didn’t have to firmly defend the U.S. government’s outrageous “official story”.

    Let’s face it if the shoe were on the other foot, and some kind of catastrophic “terrorist attack” happened in Russia, and the Russian government’s version of events didn’t make sense, and there seemed to be a cover-up going on, and Russia was blaming the attack on the Ukranian government, for example, and massing troops on the border, what would the corrupt “West” be doing? Of course they’d be screaming…SCREAMING for an international investigation. They’d be blaming Putin and the Russian government for staging a false flag attack. The world would not hear the end of the accusations. Right?

    So to the extent Putin publicly said anything about 9/11, instead of demanding an international investigation, he helped Russia’s deadly implacable enemies by publicly supporting their absurd story.

    Anyway, the question is: After all that’s happened, does Putin actually still believe the U.S. governments “official story” about 9/11? Because if he does then he is unfamiliar with the true nature of the enemy and that puts him at a serious disadvantage.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  204. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Randal

    As French put it, Macron wants to be like Putin, but the leash gets in the way.

  205. @Avery

    “You can’t be serious: you actually think Putin would make public statements about what he actually knows or believes?”

    The corrupt “West” is publicly and repeatedly accusing its enemies du jour e.g., Putin and Assad, of everything under the sun, but Putin has a duty to sit there mute in the face of such interminable treachery and lies? Seriously?

    Putin should be on the world stage right now demanding an international investigation into 9/11. I think he’s being very foolish for not doing so, especially after the recent study by J. Leroy Hulsey et al. that proves beyond a doubt that the U.S. government is lying about the “collpse” of WTC7.

    “Again: you can’t be serious.
    There is no such thing as ‘surprise nuclear attack’ when it comes to either US or RF.
    And in any case, even if (theoretically) Russia achieved total surprise and wiped out every US land based missile and nuke bomber, cruise missiles etc on the ground, and destroyed US, the US boomer fleet will remain intact and will also destroy Russia in a counter strike.”

    It depends on the definition of “surprise”. Perhaps I should’ve worded it differently. Let’s say a massive “first strike” at a calculatedly unexpected time, giving the calculated least amount of forewarning possible. I was recalling a statement Putin made at the Valdai Summit in Sochi a few years ago. He said: “Fifty years ago, the streets of Leningrad taught me one thing: If a fight’s inevitable, you must strike first.”

    If he truly understood the Satanic evil that is the corrupt West, he would know that a fight is “inevitable”; it is most definitely coming whether he wants it or not.

    “Nobody wins.
    We all die.”

    Russia would appear to have two choices: (1) surrender, disarm, be enslaved and ultimately die anyway – an undignified death on its knees; or (2) take a chance and fight. Those are the only choices.

    Second, what is the purpose of Russia’s nuclear arsenal, missile defense systems and civil defense programs? Are they not in preparation to fight – and survive – a nuclear war? If surrender to the Satanic cult is the only way forward, they sure did waste a lot of time and money on all that stuff, didn’t they?

  206. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yeah, like he is an actual Russophobe.

    Sounds like you are just mad he calls out Zionists.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  207. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    You’re just a simple Russia hater…seen ‘em all before…

    My goodness. Never knew that til now.

    Here’s another source on the Russian apartment bombings:

    The bombings ceased after the Ryazan incident in which FSB agents were detected with a bag of white powder in the basement of an apartment block. The Russian Dumas forbade an investigation into the incident, and sealed relevant records for 75 years. They were blamed on Chechnyan separatists, and provided a casus belli for the invasion of Chechnya. Sergei Kovalev headed a commission but this hit trouble.

    Now I have to admit that I wasn’t actually present when the FSB agents were detected with a bag of white power in the basement of an apartment block, and so, yes, I acknowledge that the story could all be a lie, maybe cooked up to somehow discourage the Russians from questioning the Bush/Clinton’s own pending 9/11 atrocity. Still it’s worth bearing in mind that the Russian deep state may, in fact, be capable of dirty tricks as obscene as those of the US deep state, although I suppose that to a true Putin lover such as yourself, that idea is intolerable, even as a hypothesis.

    • Replies: @FB
  208. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    He [Putin] didn’t have to firmly defend the U.S. government’s outrageous “official story”.

    So why did he?

    Is he more stupid than most Americans who are convinced that 9/11 was in some fashion or other an inside job?

    I don’t think so.

    But his reaction makes perfect sense if he wishes to avoid a tit-for-tat exchange of accusations.

  209. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    Putin should be on the world stage right now demanding an international investigation into 9/11. I think he’s being very foolish for not doing so, especially after the recent study by J. Leroy Hulsey et al. that proves beyond a doubt that the U.S. government is lying about the “collpse” of WTC7.

    If, as you say, the Hulsey study “proves beyond a doubt that the U.S. government is lying about the “collpse” of WTC7,” and I agree that that study has credibility, especially in light of much other evidence, then why, indeed, would Putin not question the official 9/11 story?

    You say, because he is “very foolish.” But that is absurd. Putin is clearly one of the world’s smartest heads of state.

    So if he is not being “very foolish,” what alternative explanation is there for his not questioning the official 9/11 story? That the Russian deep state has its own 9/11-type story is the best hypothesis that I am aware of. But perhaps you or FB have a better one.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Harold Smith
  210. @Harold Smith

    Probably the reason Putin doesn’t speak frankly on 9-11 (he surely knows the US govt’s official account is a grotesque lie), and to a lesser extent about other incidents like MH17 (the Russians know what’s on the black boxes, so the Americans don’t dare make claims about them) is because he knows the time is not yet right to play that card. It would back the Americans (or least elements of the Deep State) into a corner, and there is no telling what they would do then. Time is on Russia’s side here, and it is in their interests to let things play out slowly.

  211. @Harold Smith

    Also, if Putin were to start talking about 9-11 now, he would lose some credibility, because in some sense this event is ancient history, he would be tarred as, if not a dreaded “conspiracy theorist”, then as someone flailing about to try and change the subject. He would provide much ammunition to the US propaganda organs to claim he is validating everything they’ve been saying about him, etc. At this stage, the question of what really happened on 9-11 is fairly tangential to Russian interests, so there is not much need for Putin to say anything but bland concurrences on it.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  212. Re. the FSB false flags in Moscow (amusing to see the usual suspects squeal about this; Team America, meet Team Russia), as appalling as these were, there is a big difference between doing something unseemly like this to justify corrective action in a border area vital to Russian interests, vs what the US did on 9-11, which led to a global war on “terror” that has led to untold death and suffering of millions. Whether Putin has dirty hands in this regard or not, it is nothing compared to the bloody hands of the US Empire.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  213. Let me interrupt the discussion (which is tending toward squabbling, unfortunately) with a question. Doesn’t Israel have two squadrons of F-35′s? If so, it’s hilarious they launched this attack with F-15′s and F-16′s. I thought F-35′s were invisible to radar! (sarcasm). Because they can’t accelerate or turn for sh_t, and they’re not invisible to radar except from the front to higher frequencies, and they have a high infrared signature, they are MORE vulnerable to SAMs, not less. (I say this hypothetically, I don’t accept it as proven yet.) But if the Israeli’s don’t venture their F-35′s over Syria after this, then Pierre Sprey is proven correct. He says the F-35 will destroy any air force that uses it. Also, didn’t a Russian general issue a challenge about “invisible” planes a while back?
    Am I correct that the lack of American or Israeli F-35 usage in this theater is a huge story? Please comment.

  214. FB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Really…if you are still peddling that ridiculous garbage that FSB bombed those apartment buildings…then there is no use even responding to you…

    Why…?… because this whiole cockamamie story is pure US agit-prop…the same US that used the CIA to bring terror and misery to the Chechen people for over a decade…

    Only die-hard Russophobes still cling to that apartment building nonsense…which is why are indeed a Russia hater…denials or not…

    And you come on here with a link to GQ and wikispooks…get lost loser…nobody wants to hear that crapola…

    How about this theory…the CIA planted those apartment building bombs…

    That’s a lot easier to believe and makes a lot more sense…

    And what about the Budyanovsk hospital hostage terror attack which left over 140 people dead…did the FSB do that too…?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budyonnovsk_hospital_hostage_crisis

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @CanSpeccy
    , @Anon
  215. I have another comment. Many commenters here appear to be foreigners who possibly don’t understand the American mentality. I’ll keep this short. Someone who wishes to defeat America (or the Anglo-zionist empire, whatever you want to call it) should know that the weak point is public opinion. Most Americans have never heard of Syria, and couldn’t find it on a map if their life depended on it. If someone were to capture an American pilot in Syria, or even some hapless gun bunny (that’s what American infantrymen call artillerymen), two things would happen. First, there would be an instinctive patriotic reaction. Second, people would start talking about Syria around water coolers. Inevitibly the question would arise “What the f___ are we doing in Syria?” If Joe Public knew the stuff his rulers were doing in his name, he might take the trouble to oppose it. The ziomedia keeps bad news on lockdown, but a clever adversary would figure out how to use the ziomedia’s own instincts against it. Throw some red meat to the neocons. They are so deluded they’d probably screw up and let the public know what is going on. All you have to do is capture someone. The rest you can fake. Get creative. Make the pilot (or whatever, or his double) attend the funeral of people he bombed. Use lot’s of ululating extras, exotic hair-rending, etc. Make the ziomedia bite on it. This is what the neocons do. Fight fire with fire.

    • Replies: @Anon
  216. Avery says:
    @Harold Smith

    {Russia would appear to have two choices: (1) surrender, disarm, be enslaved and ultimately die anyway – an undignified death on its knees; or (2) take a chance and fight. Those are the only choices.}

    Nope: those are not the only (two) choices.

    Russians neither think nor act that way: that way of thinking is American way, not Russian. Russians are slow to get into a fight, but they will go the distance once a fight is forced on them.
    They gain nothing by initiating a war, particularly with US.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  217. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    That the Russian deep state has its own 9/11-type story is the best hypothesis

    Not only a story but a skeleton(s) in the closet. When NATO began bombing Yugoslavia (March 1999) and Russia was meekly objecting I remember one young very eloquent Russian diplomat stating on US TV that from now on anything will go in diplomacy and also Russia will be able to start a war and the West will have no moral grounds to object. And lo and behold five months later in September 1999 apartment buildings in Russia (Buynaksk, Moscow and Volgodonsk) began to explode. There were glitches however:

    On 13 September, Russian Duma speaker Gennadiy Seleznyov made an announcement in Duma about receiving a report that another bombing had just happened in the city of Volgodonsk. The bombing indeed happened in the Volgodonsk, but only three days later, on 16 September.

    And in Ryazan the bomb was found and connection to FSB was established:

    The position of Russian authorities on the Ryazan incident changed significantly over time. Initially, it was declared by the FSB and federal government to be a real threat. However, after the people who planted the bomb were identified as FSB operatives, the official version changed to “security training”.

    On 1 October 1999 Russian troops entered Chechnya and the Second Chechen War on Russia’s term began.

    It possible that Americans and Israelis were so impressed with this operation that they decided to implement their own false flag which they did on September 11, 2001 almost exactly two years after Putin showed them the way.

    While there is a saying that there is no honor among thieves, the thieves have many other reasons to keep their promises to each other, like the promise to look the other way and keep their mouth shut.

    So I would not hold my breath that Putin may touch 9/11 story.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  218. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Another big difference is that the GWT has added several trillions to US debt and led to the very real impoverishment of a huge number of Americans while Russia’s economy appears to be growing at an impressive rate, of course the sanctions have helped too.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  219. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FB

    Really…if you are still peddling that ridiculous garbage that FSB bombed those apartment buildings…then there is no use even responding to you…

    I am peddling nothing, other than the opinion that:

    Governments blowing up high-rise towers and their occupants to promote a political agenda is not something the Russian Government is ever likely to want to discuss.

    And apparently, I am correct, since according to Harold Smith, above:

    [Putin] firmly defend the U.S. government’s outrageous “official story”

    In other words, he does not want to discuss “governments blowing up high-rise towers and their occupants to promote a political agenda.”

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  220. yurivku says:
    @Randal

    I hope Putin said straight out that French jets launching clearly illegal attacks on Syria in supposed response to supposed “chemical weapons use” will be shot down.

    I did not hear him saying something like that, but yes, he should. Any action and any word (like stupid moron Macron used) should be answered in punished. But he keeps silent even when state flag of Russia being desecrated like in UA recently and so on.

    Now it’s not a time for public statements, now it’s a time for actions.

  221. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    In the hope that FB does not come at me with another mistaken assumption about what I believe or who I hate, please note that my statement:

    That the Russian deep state has its own 9/11-type story is the best hypothesis

    ended with the words:

    that I am aware of.

    In other words, I not only labeled my interpretation a mere hypothesis, but indicated that it was a hypothesis offered only with diffidence.

    That said, your comment certainly adds an interesting perspective consistent with the interpretation I noted.

  222. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FB

    How about this theory…the CIA planted those apartment building bombs…

    seems a bit silly to me, since you offer no motive, and no plausible motive is apparent. So when you say:

    That’s a lot easier to believe and makes a lot more sense…

    you come across as both irrational and a hysteric, rather than an analyst.

    And what about the Budyanovsk hospital hostage terror attack which left over 140 people dead…did the FSB do that too…?

    I was not aware that anyone had claimed that the FSB did that too, neither am I aware of any reason why they might had done it. So I take it you just threw it in there in fit of irritation, without really thinking what you were saying.

    Do try to think things through rather than just going ballistic about anything that is not precisely in agreement with your own opinion. It will add to your credibility.

    • Replies: @utu
  223. utu says:
    @CanSpeccy

    you come across as both irrational and a hysteric

    You got it.

  224. yurivku says:
    @FB

    ‘…For FB’s aggressive and rude style of bringing knowledge to dark masses…’

    What’s your problem…?

    I don’t remember ever even addressing you…I was responding to Avery in my #112…and I am only ever rude and aggressive with the neo-Nazis here…

    I have no problems. But you are still proving your specific style of communications. I’m not a Nazy you know, I’m granson of soldier who ended war in Berlin, son of Soviet officer and officer in reserve myself. So it’s no reasons for you to be rude. But I’m not in a claim at all.
    As for Nazis, I’m actually going crazy myself when see some here.

    My knowledge of AA/AD is limited to S-200 and very 1st modification of S-300 and I did not refresh it for last 30 years. So I can be mistaken in some details. Sorry in advance. But (knowing of its architecture) what I am sure of:
    - S-200 SAM can’t be ruled by S-300 radar, at most S-300 can supply S-200 radar with coordinates of target(s), but after that all the job S-200 radar and its SAM will do;
    what I’ve found by your link – “The Favorit’s new command post has the capability to control S-300PMU / SA-10, S-300PMU1 / SA-20 batteries, and also S-200VE/SA-5 Gammon batteries, relaying coordinates and commands to the 5N62VE Square Pair guidance and illumination radar. ” that seems to confirm my assumptions.

    - no “data flushing” stuff can be used in S-200 complex
    - having in mind that S-200 radar should illuminate target all the time until it’s hit – we can see high requrements to power of illumination and a danger for S-200 radar itself. ‘Cause antiradar missiles have range equal or even bigger than range of S-200 SAM (ex. Delilah)

    Do you understand how S-200 SAM is starting? 1st of all operator manually points SAM to one of targets, then homing head says “ready to lock”, then operator press “Lock” button (АС – автосопровождение) and only after that SAM is ready to launch. If it loses target and unable to find it in some time – it’s going to selfdestruct (AFAIR).
    How, do you suppose, SAM can lock target on its way ?
    Idea to fire SAM as just a ballistic shell seems to me … well, strange and unreal.

    ‘…S-200 all the way to target should use the radar signal reflected from the target. So question why Israelis did not notice it stil is unclear…’

    Well…since you are so smart…why don’t you clear that up for us…?

    Look, unlike you I’m not trying to look smart, actually I’m trying to find answers on my questions and explain what I’m trying to say. From your posts I’ve found some information new to me (thank you) and confirmed some of my mistakes (sorry for that).

    As for this question I see only electronic warfare which said to be quite good in Russia and a factor of surprise for Israelis pilots.

    But getting back to very first of my post, I said:
    - S-200 is obsolete complex (but yes it can in some circumstances do its work) and Putin has to supply the new ones. After all it’s very sensitive itself for threats from anti-radar missiles and should be defended by Pantsirs (but it’s true for S-300, S-400 also in lesser degree).

    You said

    All we know is the result…S200 rockets took down one F16…apparently with little prior warning…[again...please explain that with your own theory] …

    And the second plane targeted was reportedly also hit…a very good result…and this at quite long range…

    So those results speak of a very effective SAM combat performance…a kill percentage of 50 percent…not even counting the second damaged plane…which could well be written off for all we know…

    All we know…it’s like Russian meddling in US elections – everybody knows, but nobody can’t prove.
    But I can prove that some US citizens are meddling in our election right here at UNZ -) (see my posts on our elections).

    All we know is that one plane was downed by some weapon that’s it. Everything except it are speculations. Was it S-200? Who knows. Was F-15 damaged? Who knows. How many jets were under attack? Same. What damage AA infrastructure suffered? We don’t know.
    So I don’t know where you get your 50% neither.
    For you probably everything is clear, for me it’s not. I’d be glad to hear that my lovely S-200 SAMs big and awkward built on electronic lamps (sic!!!) are good enough to fight with F-16, F-15 and probably F-35, but it needs to be proven.
    So that’s it .

    • Replies: @FB
  225. yurivku says:
    @FB

    You have no idea who you are dealing with…and I post here for the benefit of the readers…many of whom appreciate my comments…not dweebs like you or Yurivku…

    Ooo, I just came across this brilliant statement of yours. Congratulations. You are actually the best, even better than I initially assumed -).

    Well, now I have an idea who I’m dealing with and will stop dealing in order not to get dirty.

  226. yurivku says:
    @EugeneGur

    Agree. Thank you. As for me, when hearing something morons like Byrresheim saying, I usually can use only swearwords of the least decent sort.

  227. @CanSpeccy

    “If, as you say, the Hulsey study ‘proves beyond a doubt that the U.S. government is lying about the ‘collpse’ of WTC7,’ and I agree that that study has credibility, especially in light of much other evidence, then why, indeed, would Putin not question the official 9/11 story?”

    Because he’s foolish.

    “You say, because he is ‘very foolish.’

    Yes. If the shoe fits, wear it. Simple enough?

    “But that is absurd.”

    No it isn’t.

    “Putin is clearly one of the world’s smartest heads of state.”

    In your unfounded opinion that is. And I disagree. But let’s say he is “one of the world’s smartest heads of state” (and that’s not saying much); so what? Even “smart people” make foolish mistakes, no? Putin has even admitted to the *mistake* of trusting “the West”.

    “So if he is not being ‘very foolish,’ what alternative explanation is there for his not questioning the official 9/11 story?”

    There are three possibilities here: (1) foolishness (2) cowardice (i.e. can’t face the unpleasant implications); and (3) some combination of the two.

    “That the Russian deep state has its own 9/11-type story is the best hypothesis that I am aware of. But perhaps you or FB have a better one.”

    ROTFL! Show me some plausible alternate theory that doesn’t involve the U.S. government and its jewish-supremacist masters. You can’t; you’re just being contrary.

  228. @Beefcake the Mighty

    No; 9/11 is still very much relevant.

    Just a few months ago, an engineering team led by J. Leroy Hulsey, one of the most respected forensic structural engineers in the U.S., has scientifically proven that the U.S. government’s “story” that “fire” brought down WTC7, is a fraud, or at least, grossly in error.

    Before he became “president”, Orange Clown made noises about investigating 9/11, since it was never properly investigated. Now that he’s “president” and Hulsey et al. have handed him a perfect reason to investigate, he needs to be held accountable to his campaign intimations.

    And if Orange Clown continues to ignores the new evidence and refuses to investigate – then the international community led by UN Security Council members Russia and China need to speak for the whole world and demand an investigation.

    If the U.S. government sets itself up to judge the actions and the legitimacy of foreign governments, then it can and should be judged by the standards it ostensibly applies to others.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @jilles dykstra
  229. @Avery

    “Nope: those are not the only (two) choices.”

    Yes they are.

    “Russians neither think nor act that way: that way of thinking is American way, not Russian. Russians are slow to get into a fight, but they will go the distance once a fight is forced on them.”

    Apparently you completely misunderstand the situation. You actually cannot see that a “fight” has already been forced on Russia?

    “They gain nothing by initiating a war, particularly with US.”

    Once again, the war has already begun. Putin has so far avoided direct military confrontation with the U.S., but anyone who understands the true nature of the Satanic evil that rules the corrupt “West” must understand that Russia is in a fight for its life. The demon-possessed madmen that rule the West will do a global murder-suicide before they go down, and they are going down.

    • Agree: polskijoe
  230. @FB

    Networking by itself is not data fusion…

    LOL. Dude, stop evading the issue and deliberately commiting semantic fraud. I never said that networking by itself is a data fusion. This is what I said, and I quote:

    ALL modern Russian AD complexes are in effect legos since have the ability to be integrated in a network with any of them capable of data-fusion.

    You write, meanwhile:

    It takes time to develop these techniques…it takes real smarts on the part of the designers to develop those algorithms and software that is going to take data feeds from many different sensors and combine that in a way that is powerful and useful…

    Yes, yes–can you also write a poem about it, before finally completely drowning in sappy sentimental BS? I repeat:

    1. Data fusion was around for decades and it is just the matter of protocol of linking (in Russian–sopryazhenie) various sensors with their OUTPUTS (measurements) to a “processor” with aproprite soft (algorithms). So, spare me this BS about smart people–I know Soviet/Russian Military Industrial Complex on several orders of magnitude better than you ever will and yes, most of those people are not stupid.

    2. Nebo-M was not DEVELOPED, quoting you:

    I only stated a correct fact that the Nebo SVU anti-stealth radar complex has been developed on the principle of data fusion…

    It is NOT a correct fact since today ANY modern sensors from radar, optronic systems (FLIR, IRST, UV) to sonar to whatever else ALL are “capable” of data-fusion–because their outputs ARE “fusionable”. Nor was Nebo designed, in accordance to one of your sources statement “to hunt for F-35″. Russians are not complete idiots to blow massive funds to design a radar “to hunt” POS F-35 which is easily seen by any radar from S-300 to S-400 and even Irbis of SU-35 sees it just fine. Especially when one considers the fact that all Russia’s 4+ gen. fighters such as SU-35 have a… drum roll, still drumming, continuously drumming… data fusion which allows to fuse sensor outputs from Irbis, IRST, passive electronic means etc.

    Now comes this preposterous claim that IAF pilots didn’t know that they were tracked and locked on by S-200 (5 of them) missiles. I somehow don’t buy this, especially knowing Israeli’s propensity to grossly inflate their capabilities and skills–but that is just the matter of personal conviction and I could be wrong. Now to not waste the time I will respond to this:

    OMG…Tyler Rogoway…?

    The point was precisely about the fact that if this pop-war Alpha Foxtrot knows that S-400 does what it does it kinda adds to an argument. But then again, you are the guy, not me, who discovered new “tactics” by packing up AD complexes and running away once the salvo at the object of their defense is launched. So:

    You chose to muddy the waters about data fusion only to attack me…that is not a legitimate way to conduct technical debate…

    I think pointing out to an obvious fact that you have no idea on how data is fused (I gave you a couple competent papers on it, including fusing two radically heterogeneous sensors–radar and IR) is not “muddying of water”. But continuing to spew a truck load of nonsense here as you do is a good enough reason to call you out on your BS. If you want to learn about techniques of data-fusion and how outputs (or inputs–depending on POV) (measurements) interact, here is a good review:

    https://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2013/704504/

    or you can see what earth scientists in University of Idaho do with data fusion:

    https://webpages.uidaho.edu/for570/pdfs/for570/Evans-Fusion02012006.pdf

    So, now to completely close this discussion–here is a short excursion into the history of data-fusion, and I quote:

    Data fusion first appeared in the literature in the 1960s, as mathematical models for data manipulation. It was implemented in the US in the 1970s in the fields of robotics and defense. In 1986 the US Department of Defence established the Data Fusion Sub-Panel of the Joint Directors of Laboratories (JDL) to address some of the main issues in data fusion and chart the new field in an effort to unify the terminology and procedures. The present applications of data fusion span a wide range of areas: maintenance engineering[1], robotics[2], pattern recognition and radar tracking[3], mine detection[4] and other military applications[5],remote sensing[6], traffic control[7],[8], aerospace systems[9], law enforcement[10], medicine, finance, metrology [11], and geo-science.

    http://uhra.herts.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/2299/2246/902341.pdf?sequence=1

    Yes, I never-never dealt with data fusion in my life (wink, wink). ;-)

    • Replies: @FB
  231. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Harold Smith

    Before he became “president”, Orange Clown made noises about investigating 9/11, since it was never properly investigated. Now that he’s “president” and Hulsey et al. have handed him a perfect reason to investigate, he needs to be held accountable to his campaign intimations.

    Will never happen. Here’s the man you name the OC giving the official account of the Twin Towers’ Collapse on the day they came down, even going so far as to state (2 min 40 seconds plus) the temperature of the fires :

    the tremendous amounts of fuel that was dumped on the building and sixteen hundred degrees temperature. …

    President Trump is surely a man the deep state can trust.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    , @Sparkon
  232. https://kenfm.de/israel-in-der-militaerischen-sackgasse-i/

    Allerdings war der Abschuss der israelischen F-16 aus US-amerikanischer Produktion durch die syrische Luftabwehr – der erste Verlust der israelischen Luftwaffe durch Kampfeinwirkung seit 1982 – den israelischen Militärs tief unter die Haust gegangen. Denn der Abschuss der F-16 und der damit verloren gegangene „Nimbus der Unverletzlichkeit“ der israelischen Luftwaffe ist bei weitem nicht alles, was die Strategen im israelischen Generalsstab beunruhigt.

    Denn das syrische Militär hat neben der F-16, die in den syrischen Luftraum eingedrungen ist, auch 13 von insgesamt 18 israelischen Marschflugkörpern im Flug zerstört. Diese waren ebenfalls von israelischen Mehrzweckjägern, die sich illegal im (noch) sicheren libanesischen Luftraum befanden, auf militärische Ziele in Syrien abgefeuert worden, berichtete die russische Zeitung Iswestija am 14. Februar unter Berufung auf eine Quelle im syrischen Generalstab.

    Der Bericht fügte hinzu, dass den israelischen Raketen die Hauptaufmerksamkeit der syrischen Luftabwehr gegolten habe. Der Artikel lieferte auch zusätzliche Details über einen ähnlichen Vorfall, der sich bereits am 7. Februar 2018 ereignet hatte, als israelische Kampfflugzeuge mit weitreichenden Luft-Boden-Raketen vom Libanon aus Ziele in der Nähe von Damaskus angegriffen hatten. Dem Artikel zufolge wurden an diesem Tag sechs von acht israelischen Raketen zerstört.

    Short, it is not just the destruction of one Israeli plane, that worries Israel.
    13 out of 18 Israeli cruise missiles were also destroyed, Iswestija, Feb 14, Syrian sources.
    Already Feb 8 6 out of 8 Israeli cruise missiles were destroyed.

    What is fake, and what is truth, in all this, I do not know.

  233. Eagle Eye says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The term “fusion” and the diagram on p. 145 clearly indicate that “fusion” was – even back then – conceived as a rather more complex process than mere “averaging.”

  234. Vidi says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Another big difference is that the GWT has added several trillions to US debt and led to the very real impoverishment of a huge number of Americans while Russia’s economy appears to be growing at an impressive rate, of course the sanctions have helped too.

    And the Russians are set to grow much wealthier once their gas starts flowing to China, in a year or so. $800 billion will go a long way.

    This is why I think people like Sergey Krieger are being unfair when they say China is doing nothing. Eight hundred billion dollars — and several $trillion in OBOR — is not nothing. China did not have to do the gas deals. I think nuclear power plants would be better, and $800 billion would buy a lot of these plants, especially if China used mass-manufacturing techniques on them.

    In any case, any delusions the West has that Russia will be “isolated” are a joke, and will be even more amusing in a few years.

  235. Eagle Eye says:
    @FB

    Thanks for a detailed (and illustrated!) explanation that makes a lot of sense to intelligent but perhaps not specialist readers. The scenario is quite unusual: HOW DID A SUPERANNUATED SAM-2 MANAGE TO TAKE DOWN AN F-16 with sophisticated RWR?

    In fact, it seems conceivable that with highly accurate (ground-based) engagement radar support, the missile did not use its built-in homing radar at all and was effectively detonated by remote control.

    The new Russian radar installation in Syria may include radar transmitters and receivers that are widely separated. (In conventional radar installations, e.g. at an airport, a single antenna installation is switched between transmitter and receiver.) In particular, a receiver installation may have been placed close to the Israeli border for much greater accuracy.

    Without a transmitted signal, the receiver installation would be hard to locate and neutralize. On the other hand, a transmitter close to the border would be at risk of being taken down within minutes of activation.

    The Israelis, of course, will have been generally aware that they were operating much closer to the edge of the envelope (or beyond). Following recent events, there will certainly be some rethinking of tactics and perhaps of wider strategy.

    Domestic policy concerns will play a role, with IDF commanders and Israeli voters glancing nervously over Netanyahu’s shoulder at possible successors.

    • Replies: @FB
  236. @Eagle Eye

    The term “fusion” and the diagram on p. 145 clearly indicate that “fusion” was – even back then – conceived as a rather more complex process than mere “averaging.”

    I don’t even know where this comes from in terms of “averaging”, I never mentioned anything on that, I just merely pointed out to the main task of data-fusion of mitigating uncertainties. Figure 27, to which a specific reference was made on page 151 demonstrates clearly a rather dramatic reduction of errors between non-fused and fused sensors. Obviously it is not “averaging”. So, I am a little confused.

  237. Vidi says:

    I’m not sure what data fusion is, but that it emerged in the 1960′s reminds me of something.

    At about that time, astronomers starting using interferometry to combine the data collected by several radio telescopes into a single image of far higher resolution. Today’s VLBA (Very Long Baseline Array) acts like a single telescope whose width is 8600 km.

    So I wonder, does data fusion have anything to do with interferometry?

  238. @CanSpeccy

    Yes he is indeed a man that the deep state can trust. That’s probably a requirement for being selected as president. Every Trump supporter probably has a pet promise he heard Trump make while campaigning. Some may say that Trump must be held to his promise, though there appears to be no way to hold him to anything. Some insist that the promise they hold dear is being delivered already or is in process.

    Trump’s detractors, among whom are plenty of former supporters, point to their own pet promises and state that they have been betrayed. Trump seems to have made a lot of promises, or to have hinted at a lot of promises, during the campaign. If he keeps more than one or two of them I’ll be surprised.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  239. @Vidi

    At about that time, astronomers starting using interferometry to combine the data collected by several radio telescopes into a single image of far higher resolution

    I am a complete zero in interferometry but what you described sure as hell sounds like fusion.

    • Replies: @Vidi
  240. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Twodees Partain

    Trump seems to have made a lot of promises, or to have hinted at a lot of promises, during the campaign. If he keeps more than one or two of them I’ll be surprised.

    One promise he’s already kept has the ingenious feature of self-negation. I refer to the tax cut, which is being funded by an increased budget deficit, aka, a guarantee of future inflation. So don’t expect real wages to rise any time soon.

    What one can say in Trump’s favor is that he is not stupidly arrogant. He would never, like Hillary, piss on his own potential supporters, blue collar whites, calling them a basket of deplorables. Rather, Trump acknowledges the legitimate grievances of ordinary folks, in particular, their jobs being shipped overseas.

    On construction sites and in hotel kitchens, Trump, has rubbed shoulders with America’s working class and, like Winston Churchill who served with common soldiers in the trenches during WW1, he is surely capable of empathy for such people. In fact, like Churchill, he is surely sincerely for the underdog, just so long it is understood that he is the overdog.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  241. @Eagle Eye

    Never mind my previous response to you, you are right–I did write erroneously “averaging”, my apologies. I was wrong. It is NOT averaging, I agree with your correction. Thank you.

  242. FB says:
    @yurivku

    First of all…great respect for your grandfather who fought the Nazis…

    I’m not going to go into my family history here because I am posting anonymously…so I do not get into stuff like saying I have such and such credentials etc…

    Now about the part where you called me ‘rude’…

    This was for no reason…I looked at my #58 where I responded to you…

    The worst thing I said to you is this…

    ‘…That’s why TVM is universally used today…clearly you have no idea what you are talking about…’

    That is a fair…if somewhat harsh comment…considering that you made some major mistakes…first with the range of the rocket…and then with the type of missile seeker…

    Considering that you admit those mistakes yourself…then how are you justified in calling me rude…?

    I am always polite with everyone until they insult me first…

    Now you add this…

    ‘…Look, unlike you I’m not trying to look smart, actually I’m trying to find answers on my questions and explain what I’m trying to say…’

    That is neither an accurate nor fair description of my technical discussion here…again I have reason to feel needlessly insulted…

    I think many people would agree with that…[and maybe you missed it...but several people here welcomed my efforts which they saw as genuine...and not 'trying to look smart'...]

    Anyway…as to the technical discussion…I have said all along that we cannot be sure what happened…

    But it is you who is talking with much more certainty…you have just said that no data fusion could take place with the S200 and the new generation radars Russia has in Syria…

    Do you know this for a fact…?

    I don’t think so…because nobody outside the Russian and Syrian SAM crews knows this for a fact…and they’re not going to talk about those things…

    Let’s review some of the things that we do know…

    1. the rocket that brought down the plane was not an S300/400…because only Russia has those in Syria…and they certainly would not fire at Israeli planes in Israeli airspace…

    2. We can also be reasonably sure that it was not a Pantsir…first because of the range [the Israeli plane was hit inside Israeli airspace]…and second because of the big damage and ‘grave’ wounds to one of the F16 crew…

    That indicates a big explosion like the S200 217 kg blast fragmentation warhead with 37,000 fragments…not a small round like a Pantsir which would have to score a direct hit against a fighter-size aircraft to seriously damage it…

    That IAF F16 went down like a rock…that doesn’t happen from a pea shooter like the Pantsir…with its 20 kg warhead…

    Also the Pantsir missile is command-link guided…so in this case the radar would need a lock before firing the missile…which would have given the Israeli crew a fair bit of warning time…especially considering the range involved…

    So considering these facts that we do know…I think the only reasonable conclusion by means of deduction is that it was an S200 that brought down the plane…

    Also the media reports have said it was the S200 that brought down the plane…

    Now you have provided here a sequence for firing the S200…at least the way it was 30 years ago…

    However let us look in more detail at this process…because you have left out some important information…

    Let’s review first the basics of how semi-active radar homing [SARH] works…

    We see here that the engagement radar…in the case of the S200 the 5N62 Square Pair…sends a signal to the target…which bounces back to both the Square Pair…and the receive-only antenna in the S200 nosecone…

    That onboard antenna does not transmit any radio signal…it just listens…ie it is a passive radar…

    The system works on the bistatic radar principle…in which the transmitter and receiver are not in the same place…

    There are two advantages…

    1. this method is far more accurate over a long range…

    2. The receiver location is not known…since it doesn’t emit any signals that can be detected…only the transmitter location can be detected…this makes electronic interference much more difficult…

    So on the S200…the Square Pair illuminates the target and the signals bounce back to two radar receivers…one onboard the missile…and the other back to the Square Pair…

    The missile transmits its radar data [and flight information] back to the square pair also by means of downlink…that’s what the smaller antenna is for on the Square Pair…

    However…and this is a very important part of the process…

    The missile flight is a two-step guidance process…the semi-active radar homing is used only in the terminal phase…as I have said already…

    ‘…The missile uses radio illumination mid-course correction to fly towards the target…’

    You are correct that [in the legacy mode at least] the lock is done before the missile is launched…

    ‘…The seeker is tuned to the illuminator carrier and then locked on to the target while still on the launch rail (LOBL)…’

    Ie…lock on before launch…

    Now…it is also correct that the S300/400 radars do not directly control the S200…at least that I know of…and I never said they did…I said…as you quoted…that the S300/400 radars send their signals to first to the S300/400 command post…which then controls the Square Pair…

    The S200 command post does not command the S200 in this situation where the S200 is integrated into the IADS with the newer generation SAMs…

    This is what we know for a fact…

    Now…if there was no advantage to be gained from this arrangement…then why would they do it…?

    Obviously…having the big S300/400 radars…plus the sophisticated command and control post [which may indeed be capable of data fusion of a number of separate radars...as we know for sure that it does on the Nebo M]…

    Means there is much more possibilities…

    In fact…we do not know how those S200 missiles and Square Pair radars have been upgraded over the years…

    But we do know that they have been upgraded…every weapons systems is constantly upgraded throughout its service life…and since the S200 is still an operational system in many countries…we can be sure that Almaz Antey is providing upgrades even now…

    For example we know that the Iranians have upgraded their S200 to solid-state electronics…

    It is true that if the S200 in Syria is still working as it was originally designed as LOBL…then what you describe is how the missile would have to be launched…with a lock first…

    This would give a lot of time to the target aircraft…since the maximum flight time of the S200 is about three minutes…even at closer range a one-minute flight time from launch to intercept would be plenty of time for a targeted pilot to make a very tight turn…bleeding off speed as he turns…that would surely break the missile lock and defeat the shot…

    But that is not what happened here…

    So the scenario that I presented is in fact a possibility…knowing what we know about the Russian data fusion…and the fact that the new command posts control the legacy batteries when the systems are integrated…

    There are other possibilities…the radar warning receiver on a combat aircraft relies on a ‘library’ of radio signatures that are known threats…and these libraries are constantly updated as new signals are identified…[or perhaps supplied through intelligence gathering...]

    In this scenario…the S200 Square Pair radar might have guided the missile using a new type of radio frequency technique…

    Such a scenario would obviously involve a serious upgrade to the electronics of that radar…and inside the missile itself…

    But can we assume that nothing like this has been done…?

    Why would we…?

    Like I said already…the S200 rocket is still one of the best SAM rockets in the world…in my opinion it is better than any solid rocket because it has the ability to throttle down…ie slow down and speed up as needed…

    This is a very big deal in the end game of the engagement…the target pilot is going to be making a tight turn to bleed off speed…as he bleeds off speed his turn can become even tighter…

    A pursuing missile that cannot slow down is limited by physics to how tight it can turn…since it is going very fast…it means a large turn radius…

    In any case we can be reasonably sure of several things here…the S200 was used to take down this airplane…

    The rocket managed to sneak up on the airplane with much less warning than one would expect of the legacy S200 behavior…as you have described…and which I acknowledge and have further expanded on here…

    And…we have every reason to believe that the S200 could be upgraded quite effectively to function in a very powerful new way…especially as an integral part of the modern Russian IADS…

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  243. FB says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Thanks for adding to the discussion…and I’m glad you mentioned the bistatic or multistatic [in the case of a number of receivers] concept for radar…

    I mentioned this in my #246… before I got to your comment here…

    ‘…In fact, it seems conceivable that with highly accurate (ground-based) engagement radar support, the missile did not use its built-in homing radar at all and was effectively detonated by remote control…’

    I agree…there is nothing conceptually that would make this impossible…

    As I discuss in my reply to Yurivku…any such scenario would involve upgrades and modifications to the S200 missile and radar…but there is nothing there that would prove to be impossible…

  244. Cyrano says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Why is so difficult to believe both official stories – about 9/11 and the apartment building bombings in Moscow?

    Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar – as Ziggy used to say – unless you are Monica Lewinsky – then you can find some other uses for a cigar. But unless everybody on this site is a bimboeque Monica, there is no reason not to believe both official stories.

    Because the alternative “clever” conspiracy theories are just bonkers. Oh, yeah, that’s right, the US government had to bomb the WTC to get the well informed and really, really caring about global affairs US public on their side for the war on “terra”. How stupid is that?

    The US public could have been had with a far less riskier and less costly “lie” than the WTC bombing. All the US government had to say is that there are some unsavory characters in the Middle East that need to be taken care of, and the American public wouldn’t have cared less if it is a truth or a lie.

  245. @CanSpeccy

    ” like Winston Churchill who served with common soldiers in the trenches during WW1, ”

    Where and when did he do this ?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  246. @FB

    Quite interesting, as far as I’m able to understand all this.
    But, the story I saw, was that the Israeli plane was hit in Syrian airspace, but managed to fly back to Israel, where it crashed, after the two pilots had ejected themselves.
    One of them was badly wounded.
    If indeed the plane was able to fly back, then, in my view, it was not hit by a large detonation.
    Nor could a pilot have controlled the plane for some time.
    If one pilot can eject the other, no idea.

    • Replies: @FB
  247. @Harold Smith

    Anyone interested in sept 11, knows, in any case since 2004, that the towers were destroyed by explosives.
    The 47 story building even was blown up conventionally, with the explosives at the ground floor.
    How, in hindsight, the spin doctors managed to let the public believe, myself included, in my case for three years, that it was a Muslim terrorist act, is THE miracle of sept 11.
    Especially since the planned act went completely wrong, and last minute improvisation was needed.
    Sept 11 is no tribute to USA ingenuity.

    • Replies: @skrik
  248. Vidi says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    So it’s the separation of the radio receivers (what astronomers call “aperture”) that produces the improved resolution achieved by data fusion, not the use of different radio bands. That makes sense.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  249. utu says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Data averaging increases signal-to-noise ratio so probability or accuracy of detection is higher. It can be considered a data fusion method or system. This whole discussion about data fusion is conducted on semantical buzz words level. Using several senses like sight, hearing and smell our mind performs “data fusion” and creates a model of the world that is constantly being verified and adaptively modified. But how our mind actually does it is not that simple to answer.

    Basically the data fusion may refer just to algorithms that bring together data from several sensors including active sensors like radars and lidars and passive optical sensors and construct higher added value products about what is there, how far it is, where it is moving. Counter measures are there to confuse this algorithm and reduce the probability and accuracy of detection by distorting the signals the sensors receive, by adding extra signals and by creating background noise.

    The effectiveness of given data fusion system can be verified in the real wold scenarios when different countermeasures are active and deployed. No simulations or field tests will be as demanding as what the situation when engaging with the real enemy can provide.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  250. @Vidi

    So it’s the separation of the radio receivers (what astronomers call “aperture”) that produces the improved resolution achieved by data fusion, not the use of different radio bands. That makes sense.

    As I said–I have no knowledge of inreferometry, but synthetic aperture radar (and optics) are nothing new. I do, however, have to say that inputs of different radio-bands can also be “fused”.

  251. @utu

    Data averaging increases signal-to-noise ratio so probability or accuracy of detection is higher. It can be considered a data fusion method or system.

    Simple example. In navigation: position could be found by radar purely: bearing and range–two Lines of Position, not the best since of the lowered probability, but works. Both lines can be weighted and probabilistically assessed. In the same situation, instrumental errors of radar in terms of bearing are often higher than visual observation from repeater of course-indicator and optical device. Doing the same with visual bearing and radar range. Most of the time, position will be slightly different from radar derived position and most likely will have better probability. Again, this is just for the simplest of examples. Which position is better–here come those algorithms which both assess and predict the reliability. It is a complex issue, especially for three and more lines of position (three bearings, or three distances–again as an example) but fusion allows to mitigate or largely remove uncertanties which come with both human and instrumental errors. Processing power since late 1980s allows to process large arrays of data.

  252. Sparkon says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I don’t know if trust is exactly the right word.

    Unfortunately, the video you picked is not the best since it doesn’t include Trump’s unofficial comments about the “hole” in the WTC’s steel exterior, and his thoughts that “they” must have had a bomb, to be able to “go through that wall.”

    Trump’s remarks begin at about the 2:15 mark, after introduction by Alex Jones:

    “The steel. The reason the World Trade Center had such narrow windows is that in between all the windows, you had this steel on the outside of the building.

    That’s why when I first looked at it – you had big, heavy I-beams – when I first looked at it, I couldn’t believe it because there was a hole in the steel, and this was steel that was – you remember the width of the windows of the World Trade Center, folks, I think you know if you were ever up there, they were quite narrow, and in between was this heavy steel.

    I said, how could a plane, even a 767 or 747 or whatever it might have been, how could it possibly go through the steel?

    I happen to think that they had not only a plane, but they had bombs that exploded almost simultaneously, because I can’t imagine anything being able to go through that wall.”

    – Donald Trump
    Sept. 11, 2001

    Nor can I.

    Indeed, the cartoon-like airplane punch-outs in the steel facade of the building lead one inexorably to the no planes theory (NPT), and there are numerous other indications of jiggery pokery that day as well, including 767s flying too fast and maneuvering too sharply at low altitude, glitches in the videos broadcast that day, airborne cell phone calls, &c.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  253. @Cyrano

    Sorry but there is a saying in America, “follow the money” use it wisely. There are several motives for doing the FF on 9/11 and I disagree that the American public wouldn’t have cared about the waste of blood and treasure, ultimately several trillions worth, without the events of that day and the constant repetition of the replaying of highly charged video clips of the devastation.

    Silverstein received 4 billion in insurance claims, I believe. There was unprecedented short selling of stocks of the airlines and insurance companies involved (never followed up on). Cheyney and his MIC chums made sqillions. Political careers have been made on the back of it. The security state has become ever more empowered over its real enemy, the American people. The increased national debt will be enriching globalist bankers for evermore and the loss of constitutional rights and protections serves their interests under Morgan’s Law (2 reasons for everything, a good reason and the real reason) Global control.

    One thing that I learned, among other things, from reading The Last Investigation re JFK was that the best questions to ask in these cases are, who had the power to bypass the established layers of security? Who had the power to clamp a lid on and control events as they unfolded? and who had the power to insert the prearranged narrative into the mass media and the exclusion of competing narratives? Who had the power to control the investigation and effect a cover-up?

    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @Miro23
    , @renfro
  254. Eagle Eye says:
    @Vidi

    “Fusion” is a process to extract more value from the OUTPUTS of disparate systems (e.g. from different radar systems).

    Interferometry (at least conceptually) operates at a much lower level of processing by correlating the INPUT signal of different radio receivers to achieve higher resolution, noise resistance etc.

    Interferometry techniques CAN also be used to increase the resolution and improve other characteristics of radar systems. In fact, a modern “synthetic aperture” radar system as shown in the images above consists of an array of identical antenna elements in a grid pattern. One such system is visible mounted on the truck on the right. The other two trucks have similar arrays consisting of smaller elements encased on flat boxes. However, very long base line interferometry among distant radar installations (like the VLBA used by radio astronomers) does not seem to be in common use at present.

    In an antenna array, the signals sent out from individual antennas are phased (delayed) in such a fashion that the array as a whole produces a radio beam at a specific angle (azimuth and elevation). Beam direction can be switched electronically in a matter of microseconds by changing the phasing pattern for the array. The same phased-array technique can also be used to create a directional receive antenna.

    • Replies: @utu
  255. Cyrano says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I am sorry, but I am not convinced. US has waged so many wars – all of them based on blatant lies about protecting “democracy” or defending against communism.

    There is no need for US government to go to such extremes in order to win the approval of the public. US citizens simply don’t care about the world. In fact most Americans probably can’t even find the world on the map. All they care about is unobstructed access to McDonald and Wall Mart, and the world can go to hell.

    US government has sell too many wars to their domestic audience under the flimsiest of pretenses, for me to believe that Americans care what happens to some country in urgent need of democracy.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  256. utu says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Interferometry allows to measure the phase of the signal. EM wave needs both, i.e., amplitude and phase to describe it. In optical spectral range because the frequencies are high there is no way to measure phase directly and interferometry is used to mix two waves physically to create interference pattern that encodes phase change in amplitude (interference fringes) that can be measured. In radio wave interferometry this can be performed mathematically, i.e., the signals do not need to be mixed physically.

  257. @Cyrano

    “Why is so difficult to believe [the 'official story'] about 9/11?”

    Because (1) it’s collectively preposterous; (2) there’s never been an actual investigation; (3) the U.S. government has never proffered any evidence in support of its claims; (4) too many suspicious, otherwise inexplicable things have happened (or failed to happen); (5) the buildings were obviously brought down by controlled demolition; (5) too many people have been caught lying; (6) there is an obvious cover-up going on; etc., etc., etc.

    Only an imbecile would believe the “official” pack of lies.

    “Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar – as Ziggy used to say – unless you are Monica Lewinsky – then you can find some other uses for a cigar. But unless everybody on this site is a bimboeque Monica, there is no reason not to believe [the official story].”

    See above.

    “Because the alternative ‘clever’ conspiracy theories are just bonkers.”

    They’re nowhere near as “bonkers” as the government’s official conspiracy theory.

    “Oh, yeah, that’s right, the US government had to bomb the WTC to get the well informed and really, really caring about global affairs US public on their side for the war on “terra”. How stupid is that?”

    That’s pretty stupid. But why would you expect differently when the robust historical record proves that evil people generally ARE stupid? The war on terror is stupid; the war on drugs is stupid; the war on the constitution is stupid; the war on Afghanistan is stupid; the war on Iraq is stupid; the war on Libya is stupid; the war on Yemen is stupid; the war on Syria is stupid; etc. Do you see a pattern? Stupid is as stupid does.

    “The US public could have been had with a far less riskier and less costly “lie” than the WTC bombing.”

    In what sense was it “risky” for the perps? They knew beforehand that there would be no investigation no matter what (just like they knew there’d be no investigation when they attacked the USS Liberty). And “costly”? To whom? Maybe to the taxpayers and insurance companies, certainly not to the perps; for them it was profitable.

    “All the US government had to say is that there are some unsavory characters in the Middle East that need to be taken care of, and the American public wouldn’t have cared less if it is a truth or a lie.”

    9/11 was about much more than just ‘taking care of some unsavory characters in the Middle East’, and I’m sure the perps would respectfully disagree with you.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  258. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra

    ” like Winston Churchill who served with common soldiers in the trenches during WW1, ”

    Where and when did he do this ?

    Though it (Gallipoli) may have been the only decent strategic idea of the war, its planning and execution was a disaster and Churchill, in some ways a scapegoat, was demoted to Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, a meaningless position. Rather than sit by while the world tore itself apart, he resigned his post (though he remained a member of Parliament) and decided to rejoin his regiment in November 1915 at the age of 41. The last time he’d been in combat was in South Africa during the Second Boer War, 16 years earlier. It would be the present-day equivalent of the Secretary of Defense joining the front-line troops in Afghanistan.

    No one quite knew what to do with him. His official rank was Major, but Prime Minister Asquith and Sir John French, commander of British forces in France, thought he should have a brigade (more than 5,000 men). While waiting for his post, he spent December behind the lines. He made several forays to different sectors of the front to see the war first-hand and get the lay of the land. He even visited the French sector twice– oddly enough, it was considered unusual for such interest– and was presented with a French steel helmet which he would wear at the front, having judged it more practical than the British helmet. In any case, due to political pressures, he was given a battalion (less than a 1,000 men) and made a Lieutenant-Colonel instead of a Brigadier-General.

    On January 5, 1916, he took command of the 6th Royal Scots Fusiliers battalion of the Ninth Division, currently in reserve just behind the line. It had been involved in the battle of Loos in September and had suffered greatly. When Churchill took over, the battalion had been reduced from 1,000 men to less than 600, including many replacements who hadn’t experienced battle. They weren’t happy to hear that a fallen politician would be their new colonel.

    With typical Churchillian energy, he arranged for their de-lousing and took advantage of their three weeks in reserve to enhance their training. During that time, the men appreciated his lax application of discipline, despite disapproval from his superiors. He arranged sports and concerts. On January 27, the battalion took over its 1,000 yards of front at Ploegsteert, Belgium, known as “Plug Street” to the Tommies. While no offenses were launched in this sector during Churchill’s tenure, there was constant shell-fire and forays into no-man’s-land. Churchill set up his headquarters in a shell-battered farm behind the trenches. The barn was sandbagged, providing refuge when shells came in.

    When the battalion was in the line– it rotated six days in the trenches and six in immediate reserve– he and his officers would enter no-man’s-land through the barbed wire and visit the forward positions in shell craters to keep an eye on the enemy, yards away. At least one time he came under direct machine gun fire. Also, the farm itself was shelled frequently and the buildings occasionally were hit. One time, a shell landed on the house and a piece of shrapnel hit a lamp’s battery holder he was toying with. The shelling at the farm sometimes caused casualties. He constantly inspected the trenches, making sure they were as strong as possible.

    Source

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  259. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sparkon

    I don’t know if trust is exactly the right word.

    LOL

    Maybe, “relied upon,” would have been a better way of putting it: as in relied upon to understand that any inclination to blow the whistle on 9/11 could have lethal consequences — Trump presumably remembers J.F. Kennedy’s secret societies speech, and other indiscretions.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  260. @Cyrano

    That you remain unconvinced is your problem not mine. Judge Judy says, if it doesn’t make sense, it’s nonsense. Only utter fools accept the offical nonsense theory surrounding 9/11 whilst lying traitors just say that they do. I neither know nor do I care which it is in your case.

  261. ValmMond says:
    @Cyrano

    Have you ever wondered about the many anomalies of the official 9/11 story?
    Why didn’t Bush want any investigation?
    Why did members of the 9/11 commission claimed it was a fraud?
    Where are all the ‘black boxes’?
    What about the fact that ground zero burned for months and the steel was molten?
    Where are all the videos from the Pentagon? It was and still is the most surveilled piece of real-estate on the planet – where are the videos?!
    FBI is said to have visited every gas station and convenience store in the area and confiscated their surveillance video recordings. Why?
    Why were Israelis celebrating the planes hitting the buildings with video cameras set up?
    Does any of that bother you in the slightest?
    When you watch WTC7 collapse free fall, on its own foot print, does that bother you at all?
    Free fall – that means zero structural support.
    Zero structural resistance means the simultaneous disappearance of all of the 82 WTC7 supporting columns.
    Those are just a few questions.

  262. Miro23 says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    One thing that I learned, among other things, from reading The Last Investigation re JFK was that the best questions to ask in these cases are, who had the power to bypass the established layers of security? Who had the power to clamp a lid on and control events as they unfolded? and who had the power to insert the prearranged narrative into the mass media and the exclusion of competing narratives? Who had the power to control the investigation and effect a cover-up?

    Agreed that there are these two steps in the WTC 9/11 events:

    1) Technical and other proof that the towers didn’t fall due to fire.
    2) The question as to who had (has) the power to insert and maintain the prearranged fake narrative.

  263. @CanSpeccy

    Thanks for the explanation.
    Gallipoli, just Churchill believed that ship artillery could destroy fort artillery.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  264. @Miro23

    When governments commit crimes, they hardly ever come to light.
    There is no doubt in my mind that Churchill murdered Sikorsky, for example.

    David Irving, ‘Accident – The death of General Sikorsky’, 1979, München (German translation)

    Jan Ciechanowski, vormals polnischer Botschafter in den Vereinigten Staaten, ´Vergeblicher Sieg’, Zürich 1948 ( Defeat in Victory, New York, 1947)

    The last book mentions several aircraft ‘accidents’, with Sikorsky in the plane, that failed.
    De Gaulle during a long time refused to enter any allied plane, in WWII.

    JFK, read
    Harold Weisberg, ‘Whitewash – the report on the Warren Report’, 1965, 1966, New York

  265. Cyrano says:
    @Harold Smith

    All I can say to you and your fellow nutcases – conspiracy theorists – is that psychiatrists in your country don’t need to worry about their future – they’ll never go hungry. In case you nutcases need some food for thought – although I suspect that your brains are probably anorexic from starvation by now – here is something to chew on:

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2017/03/31/atlanta-bridge-collapse-shows-how-fire-defeats-concrete-steel/99877148/

  266. @Miro23

    A firm owned by a brother of Bush jr was responsible for security in the towers.
    Placing an explosive in the service room at each level would have been easy.
    Any terrorist knows how to explode bombs with a mobile phone.
    I suspect that the explosions were controlled from the 47 story building, in order to wipe all traces then later this building was blown up conventionally, at ground level.
    In order to ‘explain’ this a very complicated model was developed.
    Those who believe Bush, believe the model, those who think that Bush lied are of the opinion that for money you can get any report.

  267. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    the planned act went completely wrong, and last minute improvisation was needed

    Err, this might be ‘news to me.’ Can you please explain, in as much detail as is appropriate?

    Thanks in advance; this is a genuine request for information [as opposed to looking for trouble = not me]. rgds

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  268. @Cyrano

    You are an idiot or a liar – probably both – if you think that article has any relevance to 9-11.

  269. @Cyrano

    Just nutcases think that conspiracies do not exist.
    Now indeed, not often are conspiracies documented.

    There are two relatively recent exceptions:
    - the secret appendix to the August 1939 Ribbentrop Molotov agreement
    - the 1956 conspiracy between GB, France and Israel to attack Egypt.
    Ben Gurion wanted the conspiracy documented, the French kept their document.
    The Ribbentrop Molotov document was quite embarassing during Neurenberg show trial.

    Anyone who has read serious history books know that conspiracies are more the rule than the exception.
    One example
    Mario Toscano, ‘Designs in Diplomacy, Pages from European Diplomatic History in the Twentieth Century’, 1970 Baltimore
    But it is quite a job to unearth them, as the mentioned book demonstrates.

  270. @skrik

    None of the four ‘hijacked’ planes was used.
    The first plane that flew into a tower had a bulge under the plane that passenger planes do not have.
    The second plane had no windows.
    No big passenger plane flew into the Pentagon.
    No passenger plane crashed in Pennsylvania, the coroner declared that the plane had or was ‘atomised’ in the air, nothing like the Lockerby wreckage was to be seen, indeed.
    A Vietnam veteran in the vicinity thought he heard the firing of a air to ground missile.
    MH370 in all probability disappeared because control of the plane by the pilots was taken over from outside, the pilot tried to make contact by his mobile phone.
    This taking over from outside was already possible in 2001, but I suppose it failed.
    Where the four planes crashed, I have no idea.
    Cheyney knows, at the time he ‘accidentally’ was with NORAD to direct an excercise, as those who know NORAD say ‘it sees any bird flying over the USA’.

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @skrik
  271. @Cyrano

    “All I can say to you and your fellow nutcases…”

    Coming from you, knucklehead, that’s a great compliment. Thanks.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  272. skrik says:
    @Cyrano

    All I can say to you and your fellow nutcases – conspiracy theorists – is that psychiatrists …

    Perhaps you could afford to examine the observation, that when you point a finger at someone, three other fingers point back at you.

    I will start here with WTC7. I’m presuming that you’ve examined videos of the event, and have come to some conclusion *other* than what others see, namely ‘free fall.’ [Or at the very least, you have your own 'explanation,' in which case lets have it?] Not just free fall, mind you, but free fall almost entirely into its own ‘footprint.’ Yes, it did not fall *exactly* straight down – it tilted very slightly to the north, but only enough that the building across the street sustained *minor* damage, presumably from some upper part of WTC7 detaching as it collapsed.

    Visible on the videos is a) a penthouse collapses 1st, b) a ‘kink’ develops in the facade, but then c) the whole facade [and whatever else of the interior that was still standing], was seen to go into free-fall, basically in one single piece, result = a smouldering debris-pile with the bulk of the facade neatly arranged ‘on top’ of the pile, and that pile hardly crossing the boundary streets.

    Now, Cyrano may give an explanation other than [controlled] explosive demolition.

    NIST did try, but only after ‘pulling-teeth’ pressure was applied [by "conspiracy theorists" amongst others], and one interesting thing is NIST’s simulation output, which shows a) column79 leading the collapse, and then b) beneath it, a ‘spiral’ of collapsing beams. They claim to have stopped their simulation at that point; the rest being ‘history’ = the visible free fall collapse. Not so much BTW, all beams in WTC7, made out of steel and bolted together at each end at the vertices of an X,Y,Z 3D matrix [= totally normal construction], were designed to a) hold the building up, b) essentially forever, and c) *not* to collapse into a heap, even if d) tempted to do so by one ‘slipped of its seat’ column. One could expect the matrix might sag a bit – but not the whole to go into free fall?

    Now, my suggestion of how it could have been done. Using ‘shaped charges’ at the ends of each vertical beam, those beams were effectively rotated about their mid-points – creating an ‘air gap’ where they had been, allowing the free fall to begin. If this was started near street-level, then continued level for level upwards, the free fall collapse could continue until the collapsing upper section encountered the growing rubble-pile beneath. Explosions could still continue to disassemble the building, but free fall would transition to a slower descent for the remaining, visible upper part. The ‘wiring’ would be via WiFi/WLAN or such, since after the collapse started, any physical wires could not be guaranteed to ‘lose their integrity.’

    An interesting thing is that the ‘air gap’ would need space, and what better way than to lay the verticals, now turned horizontal, into a neat pile themselves, by arranging them to fall in a spiral – just like in NIST’s simulation! Posit: That simulation was adapted from the controlled demolition planning finite-element analysis. rgds

    • Agree: FB
  273. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    None of the four ‘hijacked’ planes was used

    With all due respect and keeping this friendly, since a) we are on the same basic side here plus b) the search for truth rules over all, IMHO it doesn’t matter what the planes were that hit WTCs 1 & 2, whether hijacked or not, or some other sort of ‘dummies.’ Some proof is that WTCs 1 & 2 did not fall due to aircraft collisions or the resulting fires but were pre-loaded with explosives [with or without nano-thermite], as was WTC7. Then I agree that it is most improbable to the point of impossible, that whatever hit the Pentagon, it was *not* the alleged regularly scheduled passenger airliner. Some proof: The holes never matched, more proof is the withheld videos. Then to Pennsylvania, and the crater that allegedly swallowed the 4th regularly scheduled passenger airliner without trace – don’t make me larf. After all that, none of the ‘standard narrative’ really matters, since one lie kills all credibility and the whole stinking 9/11 mess is redolent of massive lies. rgds

    • Agree: CanSpeccy
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  274. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    2nd bite; again with all due respect, but I don’t see where you answered re “last minute improvisation?” It Seems to me that whatever happened, it was most likely planned down to the tiniest detail? rgds

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  275. @jilles dykstra

    My understanding is that when Churchill first conceived of the bold plan there was no artillery then in place, they would have had the element of surprise and been able to land virtually unopposed. There was poor coordination between the Army and the Navy. The Navy feared mines had been laid and were afraid of losing ships so they held back. The resulting delay allowed the Turks to fortify and move their artillery in place on high ground and the rest is history. It was a debacle.

    Modern day Australian war-mongers have rewritten this as a time when the character of the nation was forged in adversity. It makes me want to puke every April 25th, Anzac Day, when the nation “celebrates” this great event as some sort of macabre victory. I feel very sad for those precious young lives wasted and for what? Nothing!

  276. FB says:
    @jilles dykstra

    ‘…But, the story I saw, was that the Israeli plane was hit in Syrian airspace, but managed to fly back to Israel, where it crashed, after the two pilots had ejected themselves…’

    Where did you see that…?

    The only thing we have actually ‘seen’ is that F16 plummetting straight down…

    There is no forward momentum whatsoever…which indicates a catastrophic in-flight break-up…indicating the plane was hit just moments before…

    This spot where the plane came down is near Harduf, Israel…which is well inside Israel…only about 15 km east of Haifa which is on the Med Sea coast…it is 40 km inland of the Israeli-occupied Golan Heights…and 60 km inland of the Syria proper…

    There is no way that an airplane that comes plummeting straight down will have flown for 60 km…

    Also if we look at the location of the nearest IAF airbase…it is the Ramat David Airbase…which is about 10 km due south of Harduf where the plane came down…

    That indicates the plane was flying on a south heading from Lebanon…which border is about 30 km north of Harduf…

    Had it been coming in from Syria…from the east… it would have been on the wrong heading to make the airport…missing to the north by more than 10 km…off-course by more than 20 degrees…no pilot would make such a navigation error…

    Those are facts we can deduce from the known location of the wreckage and the map of the area…without relying on information given out by the IAF…which has been contradictory…as is often the case with any military anywhere in the world…

    We also have the fact that the pilot was severely injured…and was on a respirator before regaining consciousness more than a day later…

    That means almost certainly that he was instantly wounded by flying shrapnel from the missile warhead…not after punching out…

    In this situation the WSO in the back seat can fly the airplane [he's a fully qualified pilot]…if it’s flyable…but he would know instantly that the pilot up front has been incapacitated…possibly dead…since the first thing after being hit they would have got on the cockpit intercom…

    Since the pilot was on a respirator and unconscious for 24 hours…he would have been unconscious at the time of the impact…unless the plane was flyable the WSO would have punched them both out of there…the ejection seats are synchronized so either of the crew pulling the lever will eject them both…

    So looking at the objective facts the idea that this airplane was hit in Syrian airspace is difficult to imagine…

    Secondarily we have the reports from what we could consider reliable and well connected defense reporters in the Israeli media…I have quoted from two of them… Alex Fishman and Ronen Bergman previously…and both report that the plane was hit inside Israeli airspace…

    So all signs point to a scenario where the airplane was returning to base from Lebanon…flying due south…as has been the practice of the Israelis for months now to lob missiles into Syria from Lebanese airspace…after the Russians put their foot down about the Israelis violating Syrian airspace…

    Also if we look at the map…we see that the Syrian Tiyas base which those Israeli planes had been targeting…supposedly because Iranians were operating surveillance drones out of there…[and the whole incident began with an Iranian drone supposedly 'violating' Israeli airspace by flying into the occupied Golan Heights...which is legally Syrian soil...]

    Tiyas is about halfway between Homs and Palmyra…and about 70 km east of the northern Lebanon …the Israelis might have targeted that base with standoff cruise missiles like the Delilah…which has a maximum range of 250 km…enough to reach Tiyas comfortably…

    Incidentally…this missile would not be used to target air defense radars since it does not have the ability to home in on radar signals like a HARM [high-speed anti-radiation missile]…

    Harms have much shorter range and the Israeli retaliation in which they claim to have hit several Syrian SAM sites would have used such a weapon…but the aircraft would have come in very low to avoid radar…and would definitely have to go into Syrian airspace to get those missiles close enough when launched form low altitude…I doubt they would attempt that after that surprise takedown of the F16…

    Anyway the Israeli claims of knocking out a large number of Syrian air defense sounds like pure BS [former British diplomat Alistair Crooke agrees]…

    Israel have shown no proof of that whatsoever…and US surveillance drones are in the air over Syria so that would not be difficult to get…if it existed…not to mention that Israel has now claimed for the umpteenth time to have destroyed ‘half’ of Syria’s air defenses…so they would have by now destroyed all of them several times over…

    The point is one cannot rely much on what is said by any military about just about any skirmish…the last thing they are going to do is to tell the truth…even if it is harmless or even if it’s to their benefit…that’s just how militaries work…their standard operating procedure is to lie lie lie…

    They are forced to change their story and start coming clean only after their contradictions become apparent and reporters start asking questions about stuff that doesn’t add up…

    This was on full display here…a report in the Times of Israel on Feb. 11…one day after the downing says this…

    ‘…According to IDF spokesperson Lt. Col. Jonathan Conricus, the F-16 was hit while flying in Syria during the raid, but managed to return to Israel, where its two pilots bailed out of the plane, which crashed into a field in the Jezreel Valley…’

    Brig. Gen. Tomer Bar, the Israeli Air Force’s second-in-command was quoted as saying this in the same article…

    ‘…the Israeli planes faced a massive barrage of Syrian anti-aircraft fire, which reportedly included at least four different types of Russian-made air defense systems, specifically the SA-5, SA-17, SA-6 and SA-3…’

    Well that’s everything including the kitchen sink…the SA5 is the S200…the SA17 is the BukM2…the SA3 is the 1950s era S125…and the SA6 is the 2K12 ‘Kub’…which entered service in 1970…

    Then the next day…Feb. 12…we have a completely different story from the IAF…in the same newspaper…

    ‘…The initial assessments of the event indicate that the plane was brought down while flying over Israel after a large volley of anti-aircraft missiles — at least five, but possibly more — were fired at it, Conricus said.

    The army said it was still investigating if the plane was brought down because it was operating at a high altitude to ensure its bombs were hitting their targets, which made it easier for Syrian air defenses to spot and fire at it, and failed to react quickly enough, as was reported in Israeli media outlets on Sunday…’

    This makes more sense and is consistent with the known facts about the plane’s flight path…where it came down…and the location of the airbase it was heading for…as well as the typical operating procedure of lobbing missiles from Lebanese airspace…

    In this scenario the only missile that could have brought it down at this long range is the S200…the Buk, while a powerful and mobile SAM system [its the successor of the Kub]…simply does not have the reach…maximum range is just 40 km…

    The Buk does have the advantage of full mobility…and like the Kub and Pantsir it carries its own engagement radar on the launcher chassis…which is tracked not wheeled…the later Buk versions using a quite capable phased array engagement radar…

    The Buk like all the other Russian SAMs of all sizes and ranges is designed for networking into an integrated air defense system…so it can make use of the the big S300/400 radars…

    Again we don’t know here just what kind of ‘trickery’ may be involved here with all this radar networking and possible data fusion…but certainly the possibility is there to achieve some very stealthy SAM shots with these kinds of sophisticated fusion techniques…

    Certainly a Buk could hit an F16 over Syria…but the question then is how would that plane have managed to fly for 100 km after being hit and the pilot incapacitated…?

    Clearly that plane was coming south from Lebanon…even if those planes hitting Tiyas had gone into Syrian airspace…they would have first flown north to the very north of Lebanon and then turned east into Syria from there…since Homs is just east of northern Lebanon and Tiyas is just further east of Homs…

    It would make no sense to enter Syria 100 km south by the Golan…and fly north right into the Damascus area…the most heavily defended airspace in Syria for sure…

    So again…looking at the map and where the known pieces of this puzzle are located gives a strong clue as to how this whole thing unfolded…

    Going even further…I would speculate that this was a pre-orchestrated attack by Israel…on the pretext of the Iranian surveillance drone supposedly flying into the Golan airspace…which Israel considers its own…despite it legally belonging to Syria…

    Why else would eight aircraft be in the air to ‘instantly’ launch missiles at Tiyas…?

    This ‘instantly’ was how the story was told by Ronen Bergman, a well connected Israeli defense reporter for the Yedioth Ahoronot newspaper…writing an op-ed in the NYT on Feb 12…two days after the shootdown…

    ‘…A minute and a half after the drone entered Israeli airspace, an Israeli Air Force attack helicopter shot it out of the sky.

    Simultaneously, eight Israeli fighter jets fired missiles at the drone’s command and control center at Tiyas, blowing it up, along with the Iranians manning the center…’

    How do eight Israeli jets just happen to ‘simultaneously’ be in northern Lebanon…the only logical place from which to launch cruise missiles at Tiyas…?

    The story can be pieced together quite nicely from all of this…

    The F16 was hit at a high altitude because it was lobbing missiles from Lebanon that could reach Tiyas…

    And those planes were already there on a mission…Iranian drone or not…in fact the Iranians deny there even was a drone of theirs in the area…a very real possibility…despite Netanyahoo waving an allegged piece of that drone at his Munich Security Conference appearance a couple days ago…

    Bottom line…I still say it’s an S200…and it probably hit that F16 after they had already crossed into Israel from Lebanon…

    Clearly that airplane was flying due south…as it would on returning from Lebanon…coming down due north of the Ramat David airbase…

    The way the plane is seen on video plummeting straight down tells us much about how this unfolded…it was not long before this video starts that that plane was hit…

  277. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    You always have good analysis with detailed weaponry knowledge. But don’t get into any argument with those Germans, you have no skill & patient for the trolls they enjoy playing on you.

  278. @FB

    I clearly remember a map, showing the plane’s path after being hit.
    It flew back to Israeli airspace, not in a straight line.
    Where I saw the map, do not now remember.
    May have been RT on internet.

  279. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Well Martyanov…

    As usual you have succeeded in making yourself look ridiculous…

    Which has not gone unnoticed by some of the contributors here…who have shown they know more about data fusion than you do…

    For example the contributor who corrected you on data averaging…and another who pointed out your word games…

    I’m not going to waste any more times on word games with you…

    If you are stating here that data fusion of networked radar systems has been a mature technology for three decades then point to some citations to prove that…

    Until then I will trust Dr. Carlo Kopp, a recognized expert on the subject of radar…[unlike yourself...a clown who distinguishes himself by making snarky remarks on internet chat boards...]

    ‘…The idea of integrating three radars, each operating in a discrete band, is novel and clearly intended to provide a counter-VLO capability.

    A track fusion system in the KU vehicle will be required, providing a capability analogous to the US Navy CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability)system. This technology was previously developed for the Salyut Poima E track fusion system and is now becoming mature…’

    That was written in 2008…with regard to the Nebo M multiband anti-stealth radar complex…

    Here is the KU command post vehicle that does that data fusion…

    And here is an illustration of the four component vehicles…the three radars and the command vehicle where the data fusion takes place…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  280. @skrik

    What I described to me is trying to make something out of a disaster.
    But opinions can differ.
    There is one thing to understand that Sept 11 was not a Muslim terrorist attack, it is quite something else to guess what really happened.

  281. @NoseytheDuke

    Henry Morgenthau, ‘Ambassador Morgenthau’s Story’, New York, 1918
    The artillery was shown to Morgenthau, as far as I remember before Churchill’s attack.

  282. @NoseytheDuke

    The lives were wasted to buy British support in case of a French attack

  283. @skrik

    It matters in so far as how one can fool many.

    • Replies: @skrik
  284. TT says:
    @yurivku

    As non Russian, in fact almost all people i know, esp from China, most admired your Pres Putin as a rare charismatic stateman in this chaotic world.

    Russia wise policies like gold reserve, healthy economy, revived superb military power, great resilience under USNato unprecedented aggression and sanction, increasing global influence, and shrewd grand plans with China(like Petrol Yuan, Obor, North sealanes…) to counter US hedgmon are sufficient to prove Putin & his team are performing excellently.

    Most countries will love to exchange their leaders with Mr. Putin upon Russian drop him, esp US & EU are filled with crooks now. If its aren’t broken, why fix it? Other politician may not have Putin’s shrewd cold mind to handle hot crazy USNato provocation, able to put up a excellent technocrats team and balance all powerful interest groups like now. There is no better dream for the West is a Putin downfall, replace with another pro-West Yeltsin or some clumsy wannabe to destabilize Russia.

    Certainly Russia has already well equipped Syria with comprehensive air defense system to protect its own troops & base, as in FB & Andrei comments.

    But Putin will not risk a war with US for the sake of Syria no matter how. Unless US attacked Russian openly to force Putin to retaliate as face saving, then its big trouble for the world. Similarly for US & Israel, they are testing Russian only, not ready for confrontation. Syria is just a pawn to big powers, no one give a damn how many million Syrians get slaughter.

    However, should US will to touch Russian motherland or even snatch an island, then you can be assured to see a very different Putin and Russian response.

    Reality is always cruel.

    • Agree: FB
  285. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    how one can fool many

    Quite.

    Sept 11 was not a Muslim terrorist attack

    Agreed.

    trying to make something out of a disaster

    Ah + ?

    IF WTC7 was pre-loaded with explosives – realistically, the only possible scenario, THEN so too were WTCs 1 & 2, which also explains the totally odd way those two ‘collapsed.’ At one point, the upper part of the tower with the TV mast tilted; one would expect a) that tilt to continue then b) that section to crash down as a single piece. Did not happen; it apparently ‘fell apart’ in mid-air. At another point, a remnant of one of the truly massive cores could be glimpsed through the smoke/dust – only to drop precipitously down and disappear. Now IMHO, the only way all of that could happen is a) by some agent either breaking in carrying explosives = aggression, then hard to hide the massive amount of work needed to complete the job – or b) being let in, in which case the work could proceed partly openly, disguised as re-wiring/installing new internet access, say, with new servers, cables, wiFi/WLAN etc. Maintenance-men in blue overalls are almost invisible, then there’s the elevator servicing allowing ‘behind the scenes’ and ‘ceiling crawl-space’ access. Being let in, of course is exactly ‘inside job’ = US covert services approval at the very least, most likely Z covert services approval, most likely access. Your onion may differ.

    But there’s proof; the way all the US ‘actors’ knew and ‘sincerely’ followed their ‘scripts.’

    OK, that’s my ‘take’ on the 9/11 conspiracy = inside-job. As such, the hijacker-patsies may have been the hardest bits to ‘arrange.’ But the whole show is ‘worthy’ of both its concept and execution – thanks, but “No, thanks!” to Hollywood, or some-such analogue. One has to give some sort of award to the ‘perfect’ WTC7 free fall collapse; superb!

    Back to

    how one can fool many

    are you familiar with what I term the Bernays haze?

    “The conscious and intelligent manipulation of the organized habits and opinions of the masses is an important element in democratic society. Those who manipulate this unseen mechanism of society constitute an invisible government which is the true ruling power of our country. We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of. This is a logical result of the way in which our democratic society is organized. Vast numbers of human beings must cooperate in this manner if they are to live together as a smoothly functioning society.”

    There is a lie in there, surrounding “must cooperate” – it’s simply not true – but worse, worst: “an invisible government.” The latter is what is termed ‘deep state’ tyranny; the foul, unelected and criminal puppet-string manipulators (part of the 1%).

    The lie-cloud they choke the sheople’s minds with is deliberately ‘spiced’ with scientifically designed psychological propaganda, and that’s what does the majority of dumbing-down damage.

    Ta ra! The Bernays haze. rgds.

  286. TT says:
    @Miro23

    US Public – “Self-preservation” here means refusing to accept confrontations with Syria, Iran, Turkey and Russia (and rather seeking improved relations with these countries) plus facing off the Deep State. Inevitably this means the Public as The Public (not their “representatives”) on the streets of American cities with a general and personal demonstration of their rejection of the ME wars and the Deep State – although its doubtful that they’re capable of it.

    They will go to street in big number demand equality if WH prohibit a LBGT man from sharing washroom with their wife & daughters, or propose a sane bill to block illegal migrants. Their representing congress men will fight vehemently. But never for wars, no matter how many wars each of their Potus have waged with lies and millions of innocent slaughtered. As long nothing touch their personal life in safe heaven America, they don’t give a damn.

    • Agree: RobinG
  287. FB says:
    @TT

    What a great comment TT…

    Y0u have encapsulated the whole situation very realistically…

    Clearly people around the world [I'm assuming you're from China] are not buying the US Kool Aid about Russia being a bankrupt country on its way down…

    The reality is just the opposite…US and West lead the world in one area only…self-delusion and self-aggrandizement…

    All while sliding down the toilet like an overweight turd…

    • Replies: @TT
  288. FB says:
    @yurivku

    ‘…Needless to say I’ll vote for Grudinin…’

    this explains a lot…thanks…

  289. Sparkon says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Right you are.

    By the balls might work too. Increasingly, I’m regarding Trump as simply the faux-populist front man for a cleverly compiled set of hot button issues used to market the rich, reality show TV personality to a certain segment of middle America. I never watched his show, and when I stumbled onto it by accident and watched a few seconds, The Donald came across as a rich and conceited windbag

    Already well before the election Bro Nat warned: All of Trump’s front row boys are Jews. Step by step, Trump has backed away from — or flip-flopped entirely — on most of his bullet points. The first to go was the so-called Birther issue.

    That slurpy sucking sound you hear is something going down the memory hole.

    I see this ongoing situation in Syria as very dangerous. There are U.S. boots on the ground. How many is anyone’s guess. I don’t think the U.S. has ever wavered from its stated goal of deposing Assad, and already the country is being carved up, while forces of several nations are illegally conducting military operations on sovereign Syrian soil.

    On two occasions already, Putin has tried to declare victory and draw down his forces in Syria. Most recently, he was reported to have visited the Russian Khmeimin air base in Dec. ’17, where he met with Assad.

    But, as Saker reports, Putin’s victory declaration was premature, and now stakes are being raised by ever more bold and aggressive moves by the United States in Syria, where it operates illegally and entirely in violation of the U.N. Charter, which the U.S. observes only when it serves America’s imperial agenda.

    In November 2017, the UN’s apparently ad hoc investigatory and reporting bodies declared that the Syrians were responsible for the alleged chemical weapons attack on Khan Shaykhun. The Russians protested that the inspectors hadn’t visited the Shayrat air base from which the attacked was alleged to have been launched. Additionally, the Russians said that the American had data that showed no Syrian planes approached Khan Shaykhun during the time of the attack.

    The April 7, 2017 U.S. Tomahawk missile attack on Shayrat air base was supposedly in retaliation for the alleged chemical weapons attack launched from that air base earlier on 4 April 2017. Unlike many commenting here, my take on the attack is that most if not virtually all of the Tomahawks hit their targets, and air operations from Shayrat were degraded for some time thereafter. So this Shayrat attack should be seen now in context of these more recent attacks targeting Russian assets in Syria coming more clearly into focus.

    Recently, that Khan Shaykhun card has been pushed off to the side, at least in the media, but it’s still sitting there, face up, for whenever loudmouth Nikki Haley chooses to put it back in play, or to wait for someone else to follow suit. So I learn with concern that the French attack poodle Macron has begun snarling on his leash, showing his teeth, and threatening to attack Syria if proof of chemical weapons usage emerges. By now, most of us understand that proof can be defined any way any one desires when making false accusations to legitimize regime change,

    This development is unsettlingly reminiscent of previous mad poodle Sarkozy’s response after Gaddafi threatened to blow the whistle on him, and it was the French who imposed a no-fly zone immediately thereafter that marked the beginning of the end for the Libyan ruler.

    Back to Trump on 9/11 from your video:

    I really feel that the importance of the location is such, the importance of the monument is such, that we have to rebuild…And again, not necessarily in the form of the two towers, but something has to be done that’s very big, and very majestic.

    Something monumental and majestic to represent the 2nd or even 3rd Temple maybe? After Solomon’s Temple (WTC 7) was destroyed, along with the pillars guarding Solomon’s Temple, Boaz and Jachin (WTC 1 and WTC 2), and the gold beneath the temple was stolen.

    Of course, all of this Kabbalistic symbology is so cryptic and esoteric that the right connections have been made only by a very few keen analytical minds honed on the arcane traditions.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @NoseytheDuke
  290. @FB

    As usual you have succeeded in making yourself look ridiculous…

    I am not afraid to look ridiculous–once in a while I do and I take it philosophically or laugh together with people.

    Which has not gone unnoticed by some of the contributors here…who have shown they know more about data fusion than you do…

    I am absolutely positive somebody does. I have no quarrels with it. As an example, I never pretended to be a surgeon and always defer to my surgeon’s opinion when he explains me the source of my pain in the ass and what to do with it. He simply knows more than me about it.

    For example the contributor who corrected you on data averaging…and another who pointed out your word games…

    I always appreciate people correcting me if it is of substance.

    If you are stating here that data fusion of networked radar systems has been a mature technology for three decades then point to some citations to prove that…

    I like how you again distort things, but, I agree with you on that, below, 100%

    I’m not going to waste any more times on word games with you…

    So, no word games. Thus, If you suggest that you know something about radar, here is a very-very basic problem for you:

    1. Give a 100 kilometer range LINEAR value of azimuth error for Nebo-M assuming chord—> length of arc it subtends.

    2. Linear value of resolution for the same range of 100 km.

    3. Show calculations.

    I know the numbers–easy, basic trigonometry needed. After that we may start discussing what is known as Average Error Probable for measurements and how their standard deviations transform into the Amplitudes and what is Kx and Z . It will have to be at some point of time the Gradient of the Vector of a Parameter. These are things which are “solved” in those fusion “controllers”, which also “run” a huge data base, including a vast library of instrumental errors characteristic to a specific “sensor” under different conditions. Tick-tock-tick-tock…

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
  291. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Jesse James

    Why did Germany so foolishly invade big Russia to open another front when its already engaging UK, France, US, etc. in war? Couldn’t it wait for decisive winning, then turn back to SU when had enough refreshments?

    Is below true as described in some articles?

    UK Churchill actually thought Germany was getting too powerful to threaten its dominating imperialism, so need to be destroyed by war. UK & France then attacked Germany for its invasion to Pole, but not to SU for doing the same invasion to Pole on the other half.

    Then SU was invited to attack Germany together 3wks later. Hitler noticed that and decided to preemptive SU by invading it.

    US noticed if Japan will to attack SU on east front, SU could be forced to withdraw to defend. Then Germany could win the war. So it forced Japan into bombing Pearl Harbour to justify a war declaration, and allowed SU a full attacked to Germany, the most decisive factor for Germany defeat.

    These SOBs started the WW2, and rewritten the history to put blame on Hitler and suppressed Germany till this day. Every new Chancellor has to report to US to sign an undertaking to abide US allied, until 2099. All Germany military, MSM, security, people propaganda are under US allied control.

  292. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sparkon

    I don’t think the U.S. has ever wavered from its stated goal of deposing Assad

    Trump’s election was just one more example of political “bait and switch” marketing to add to a very long list. Given the almost unbelievable ineptitude of the Clinton campaign, one has to wonder whether the Dems were complicit in the scam.

    There is a longstanding plan to take down Russia with the objective clearly to break it into Poroshenkite corruptionistans, the local oligarchs to receive a commission on the disposal of assets to Soros and friends, while NATO moves its missiles to the borders of China. The struggle in Syria, seems like a good opportunity for the Empire to size up the opponent, test their defensive missile capability, etc. Presumably Russia’s cautious reaction, the use of ancient missiles, etc., stems in part from a desire not to give too information much away.

    Altogether, Trump appears to be a fraud from snout to tail, as Mencken said of FDR. His function being, it would seem, to allow the deep state to discard its old and discredited frontmen (the Rapist-in-Chief, Hillary, the Bush, the Shrubs), and replace them with a self-declared “most militaristic” person, i.e., someone ready to nuke North Korea if necessary to show that the deep state for diversity, the destruction of Western civilization and global hegemony means business.

  293. RobinG says:
    @TT

    Yes, that’s how I see it, too.

    However, was not Putin in the loop when Medvedev made the [disastrous] decision to ABSTAIN from UNSC vote, thus enabling destruction of Libya? (China too, of course.)

    That [destruction of Libya] is what has precipitated all subsequent chaos -
    …..arms and jihadis to Syria
    ……arms to Boku Haram in Nigeria, etc.
    …..desperate migration to Europe
    _______of Africans – for whom Libya had been a destination before
    _______from Syria escaping ISIS

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @TT
    , @Simpleguest
    , @yurivku
  294. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    You’re just a simple Russia hater…seen ‘em all before…

    • Replies:

    He is a habitual foolish UK Anglo agitprop, out to spew his clowns circus government Russophobe propaganda wilfully even after their lies been exposed.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  295. skrik says:
    @RobinG

    was not Putin in the loop when Medvedev made the [disastrous] decision …

    Well, sure IIRC, Putin was PM to Medvedev’s president, but as to how far ‘in the loop’ or not, from recall the UNSC resolution called for a ‘no fly zone,’ which *may* have ‘blind sided’ both R and C. C had BIG investments and a big workforce in Libya, I recall 30,000 workers, say. The C-workers were emergency evacuated and C’s investments were lost. IF the Cs knew anything about US/EU intentions THEN why didn’t they veto?

    But since then Putin has ‘covertly’ supported E.Ukr against murdering Kiev, ‘reclaimed by referendum’ Crimea, entered the war in Syria to rescue Assad, updated Syria’s AA capability such that the Zs just ‘lost’ an F16. Not too shabby?

    Let me put that, another way: IMHO *without* Putin, the world would look much, much worse. rgds

    • Replies: @RobinG
  296. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Marky Mark

    I have another comment. Many commenters here appear to be foreigners who possibly don’t understand the American mentality. I’ll keep this short. Someone who wishes to defeat America (or the Anglo-zionist empire, whatever you want to call it) should know that the weak point is public opinion.

    Yah, after all the gossiping around water coolers, yanks go home and switch on their TV sewage pipe happily.

    What wars their gov unleashed in Syria, Iraq, Libya, Yemen, ….. who cares.

    Let’s vote in a new lying warmonger Potus from dem for a change…another from Rep… merry go round.

    This is American’s mentality beyond help.

    • Agree: yurivku
  297. @Anon

    Why did Germany so foolishly invade big Russia to open another front when its already engaging UK, France, US, etc. in war?

    What!? Germany didn’t “engage” US till December 7, 1941 and then formally only, by that time Germany was in USSR for 4.5 months. France and UK were dealt with by the end of June 1940, exactly one year BEFORE Germany invaded USSR. Britain was safely “packed” in her Islands with some small force in North Africa. I don’t see any big “engagements” for Hitler prior to invasion of USSR on 22 June 1941. Nazi Germany was pretty much doing everything on her own volition having most of Europe conquered.

    • Replies: @Anon
  298. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Well…you really are a sad clown aren’t you…?

    Resorting now to brain teasers in your never-ending bid to somehow attack me…

    No big deal…electrical engineering isn’t my field…but as you say this sounds like a simple trig problem…

    I will note first that you did not make any distinction between range resolution and bearing resolution…

    But anyway…

    The number given by Kopp for azimuth error for the Nebo SVU is 0.5 degree…

    If the range is 100 km we get an arc length for error of ~873 meters…

    We use circular sector math to get that result…

    Ie…arc length ‘s’ = theta * R

    …where theta is the angle of 0.5 deg and R is the radius of 100 km…

    In radians 0.5 deg = 0.0087266 rad…so we multiply that by 100 to get the 0.873 km or 873 m…

    Not sure what you mean by… ‘chord —> length of arc it subtends’…

    but the chord length ‘a’ is given by…2R * sin(1/2 theta)

    …which ends up as close to the same value as the arc length ‘s’…~0.873 km…or 873 meters…

    Reason is there is not much difference between theta and sin theta at such a small angle [theta = 0.5 deg]…or any trig function for that matter…

    we only start to see a difference after 5 significant digits at such a small angle…

    Now as to the resolution…

    In this case the elevation error is given as 1.5 degrees…which is 0.026 rad…

    So we use the same math for circular sectors…and we get an arc length ‘s’ of ~2.618 km…or 2,618 m…

    The chord length ‘a’ would again be within 5 significant digits of the arc length…since the angle theta = 1.5 deg is still very small…

    So to get the resolution in a plane we would use the chord lengths…not the arc lengths [since these would not be in a plane...]

    …but it doesn’t matter much for the numbers anyway because as I said for these very small angles…combined with the much larger radius… the chord length is almost the same value as the arc length…

    Anyway the resolution would be 2,618 m in elevation x 873 m in azimuth…at a range of 100 km…

    And here’s my ‘bonus’ addition…

    Since the range error given by Kopp is 200 m…we get a three dimensional resolution of…

    2,618 m height x 873 m width x 200 m depth…

    These figures seem to be consistent with what Kopp has computed and illustrated here as acquisition boxes…

    We note here his acquisition box for the Nebo SVU at 50 nautical mile range [92 km] is just slightly smaller than my computation for 100 km as per your problem…

    Ie…~2400 m x ~800 m x 200 m…

    And now if I may pose a little challenge myself…after all turnabout is fair play…

    This is something elementary from my area…aerospace…

    Please calculate the rocket velocity needed to reach a 200 km orbit…and if you possibly can…explain why the spacecraft stays in orbit at this speed…?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  299. @skrik

    ” Maintenance-men in blue overalls are almost invisible, then there’s the elevator servicing allowing ‘behind the scenes’ and ‘ceiling crawl-space’ access. ”

    A firm owned by a brother of Bush jr did the tower security, quite easy to place explosives, to be detonated by a radio signal, as any Afghan real terrorist knows how to do.
    Perfect free fall, alas no, the collapse was faster than Newtons laws allowed.
    The professor who calculated this was sent with early retirement.
    All in all, in my opinion a mess.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @skrik
  300. @Andrei Martyanov

    You are absolutely correct all it is finding the vector of the plane an then creating the vector of the missile to intersect the vector of the plane.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  301. TT says:
    @RobinG

    However, was not Putin in the loop when Medvedev made the [disastrous] decision to ABSTAIN from UNSC vote, thus enabling destruction of Libya? (China too, of course.)

    If i remember correctly, Russia actually voted for UN to authorize the No Fly Zone over Libya only under UKUSFr pressure(China not sure abstain or go with it), not invading & killing Gaddafi. Then the vultures swept in and started bombing….sodomized Gaddafi.

    Putin cried out loudly, this is not what the UN resolution agreed on and vowed to go against in future all UN Security Council Voting. He did some pain in the ass later to veto all USNato resolution for some time.

    China got to send in Navy to evacuate ten of thousands workers and lost all its multi billions oil & gas projects.

    Both Russia & China lost their hefty investments. Are they so stupid to vote for Libya destruction? USUKFr juz don’t care about UN resolution, like Iraq war WMD lies.

    You may wonder why Putin & Xi agreed to sanction NK with US demand? They are juz going thru motion to tie US to UN international law as much as they could, since without UN resolution passed, US will still unilaterally impose whatever it likes.

    Russia & China are buying time…. for the grand finale of Petrol Yuan. Pull out the right card, it will dominoes…. better than military confrontation.

  302. @RobinG

    “However, was not Putin in the loop when Medvedev made the [disastrous] decision to ABSTAIN
    from UNSC vote, thus enabling destruction of Libya? (China too, of course.)”

    Libya is too far away from Russia and too close to Western Europe for any meaningful Russian military assistance. According to many military experts, Russian military is simply not designed to operate more then 1000 km away from Russian borders. Even if vetoed, I am sure the West would have found a way to remove Gaddafi knowing full well that Russia can’t do anything about it. So, why use a veto when you can’t make good on your promise.

    I suspect there was a calculated expectation, too, that the West would mess things up, as it had already done in Iraq and Afghanistan. And indeed, the West readily obliged. For many, the destruction of Libya was the last straw that helped expose its duplicity and utter incompetence. After Libya, Russia had a string of arguments at hand: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya.

    It sure looks like a rational, albeit cold blooded, calculation on the part of the Russians (and the Chinese).

    Just my two cents.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @Randal
  303. Cyrano says:
    @Harold Smith

    All I can say is I would not want to be a politician in your country. You people are too smart, no one can fool you. What where they thinking trying to pull a scam like the WTC bombing on you geniuses? They clearly underestimated you.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  304. @AnonFromTN

    Most people in the US don’t even know that Gambia or Zambia exist.

    LOL. I didn’t either. After researching, I discovered Nambia, sorry, Zambia, is in Rhodesia.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  305. @Anon

    Bullitt, USA’s first ambassador in Moscow, the man who engineered the diplomatic recognition of the USSR in 1933, is supposed to have told Hoggan, in 1946 or 1947, that already in 1933 FDR and Stalin agreed war.
    Samuel Untermeyer may have negotiated with Stalin, after his war declaration, WJC, 1933, on Germany he travelled to Moscow several times.
    FDR’s still largely secret conversation with Churchill began also in 1933, at the time Churchill had no political influence.

    Bernard Baruch already in 1928 or 1929, when his friend Churchill told him he wanted to go into business, told him to stay in politics because he ‘saw great things for Churchill in the future’.
    These great things came, Churchill became the undertaker of the British empire.
    In vain, Baruch in 1946 proposed a world government.
    Baruch was the man who made it financially possible for FDR to enter politics.

    Chamberlain did not want war, however, he belonged to the 39ers who thought that GB was ready for war in 1939.
    Chamberlain’s dilemma was that GB no longer could defend the empire in the Mediterranean, the Far East and the Middle East, at the same time, too expensive.
    The Italian navy, Mussolini, was the threat in the ME.
    In the Far East, Japan was the problem.
    FDR refused to promise GB support in the Far East.
    The guarantees, especially Poland, were more or less panick measures.
    It is rumoured that Poland in August 1939 also got a guarantee from FDR.

    When tensions mounted in 1939 pro war Churchill entered the British cabinet.
    And indeed, FDR deliberately provoked Pearl Harbour, as another member of the America First Committee said to Lindhberg over the phone that Sunday ‘he (FDR) got us in (the war) through the back door (Japan)’.

    What I do not know if the Ribbentrop-Molotov agreement was known to FDR in advance.
    In any case, Hitler’s attack on Poland was a blunder, Von Ribbentrop had assured him that GB would not fight, dividing Poland with Stalin brought the Red Army to the German border.
    Molotov, when he visited Berlin, made it clear that Hitler was now at the mercy of Stalin.
    Thus the attack on the USSR, if Hitler knew that he attacked three weeks before Stalin’s planned attack, I do not know.

    Waiting to attack the USSR, after France had capitulated there was no threat in the west any more.
    GB had no army.

  306. RobinG says:
    @skrik

    “… IMHO *without* Putin, the world would look much, much worse.”

    Absolutely agreed. However, getting “blindsided” shouldn’t happen to reputed Grand Master world chess players. They had seen what happened under Bill Clinton’s “no-fly zone” in Iraq, and how Bush/Cheney ran the occupation there. No doubt Putin is much wiser now, (Xi also) but that was a very costly lesson.

    • Replies: @TT
  307. TT says:
    @FB

    Im not from China, Russia, NK, Syria, Myanmar…. but i defend them against the FUKUSFrInd lies. They should pay me $1/troll mssg….for i hv been freq labeled as chicom here. hehehehe…like Denk.

    Of course Russia is now economically better than all US EU, juz look at its negligible external debt(even paid off all Soviet debt), high reserve, gold backup, reduced GDP dependent on oil gas, strategic tied up with world largest market China in multi fronts,…its GDP is forecasted to grow into top5 in 20yrs while EU continue to slide.

    But West msm really demonized Putin badly like a evil petty liar. I almost fell for it, until i started to read/watch his speeches directly. Mann, this is no ordinary leader like China Pres Xi, but Putin is a showman himself in world stage, you Russians are fortunate he pull you up from the West formulated post-Soviet abyss.

    Mr Putin was young new horn when he was thrown into shithole, fighting formidable political enemies, oligarchs & West vultures with a disaster economy. Mr Xi is also facing formidable corrupted Jiang’s stooges all over hierarchy, but he is well seasoned Province Mayor(of hundred millions people) back with good predecessor Mr Hu Jintao and solid economy in systematic handover.

    Judge your leader by the outcome, not emotion and West propaganda. A powerful visionary leader with strong team like FM Larov that stand tall among all the West corrupted clowns who glorified LBGT.

    From:
    Poor Demoralized Weak Declining Corrupted Russia, pillage by West & Oligarchs with short lifespan, fall apart economy & military.

    To:
    Welloff Proud Strong Growing Cleaner Russia, standup to West & contained Oligarchs(every country has corruption & Oligarchs power play), long lifespan, stellar economy & superb military.

    What’s more to whine? Give me your Pres Putin, i will give you mine….then don’t cry… Hhhhhhh

    • Replies: @FB
    , @yurivku
  308. @FB

    The number given by Kopp for azimuth error for the Nebo SVU is 0.5 degree…

    I asked you for Nebo-M, but OK, SVU will do if to accept number you provide. I specifically asked for a linear measure, because this is how it “projects” itself. But say we use your number and if, and I specifically (with you it is a must) emphasize it, the issue is about data “fusion” in which weighted averages and Average Error Probable are the key in calculation of probabilities which define the “choice” of the parameter in its “fusion”(or integration) phase. So, formally you are correct in terms of simple geometry, but for any task of processing and “fusion” you are not there–I will explain it later why. Because the issue here is Azimuth (Bearing) and what you get is a rather poor “reliability”. So, taking number you presented and without going into the conversion to radians (absolutely not needed in this particular case), here is how solution will look like in actual numbers–the number is very close to yours–same geometry:

    L=2*R*tg (0.5/2) = 2*100 * 0.00436335=876 meters.

    So–how are you going to provide targeting with 800+ meters difference, let’s call it for now for the sake of argument, uncertainty? And here is where comes additional sensor and here where the data will be fused.

    Please calculate the rocket velocity needed to reach a 200 km orbit…and if you possibly can…explain why the spacecraft stays in orbit at this speed…?

    No, no–we are discussing your argument on data “fusion” and we only get started, because as you may have guessed, data for Nebo radar is given as maximum values and, as it is in radar, or in sonar operations, environment plays a crucial role in the operation. Radar requires such things, among many, as RLP (radio-waves permeability). So let’s keep an eye on the target. I already took upon myself to open some books, so let’s stick to the subject matter. The only reason I gave you this simple problem is to give a range of values with which we will operate to demonstrate in the most basic form how the data is fused.

    • Replies: @FB
  309. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    We are living in a fake news world for long time, everything we perceived is what we heard and read from others report.

    Anyhow, Hitler should have enough brain to wait for cleaning up UK & France(back by US material support) before taking on Russia such a big country with tough Siberia climate. Something must have driven him so desperately to divert a huge force to attack his ally with mutual non aggression treaty?

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @pogohere
  310. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    You are absolutely correct all it is finding the vector of the plane an then creating the vector of the missile to intersect the vector of the plane.

    Well…. Just follow my discussion with this FB fellow–the issue is data fusion, not development of firing solution. Data fusion starts with weighing and probabilistic assessment of a parameter (measurement).

  311. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Anon

    He is a habitual foolish UK Anglo agitprop

    You mean,not a Commie jackass like you and FB, a couple of twits unable to even offer the pretense of an argument to justify your crude insults.

    And too thick to understand that I was peddling nothing whatsoever about the FSB bombing apartment buildings other than the fact that the story, as it was already in currency, would obviously be used against Putin if he were to attack the US over 9/11.

    As for “Anglo,” I wonder what you mean by that. In any case, as pureblooded Celt, I find the designation offensive.

    Pathetic, but that’s about all one can expect from a gutless Anon. Sadly, it is apparently all one can expect from FB too, a childishly thin-skinned weapons fanatic.

    • Troll: FB
  312. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra

    Perfect free fall, alas no, the collapse was faster than Newtons laws allowed.
    The professor who calculated this was sent with early retirement.

    This sounds unlikely. Do you have a reference?

  313. Avery says:
    @Anon

    {Something must have driven him so desperately to divert a huge force to attack his ally with mutual non aggression treaty?}

    You are not joking, right?
    You really have no idea why Hitler invaded USSR?

    UK and France were a sideshow: Hitler never wanted war with either, but UK and France declared war after Hitler invaded Poland. Stalin invaded Poland later.
    Hitler invaded Poland to get closer to USSR and Stalin invaded Poland to have a buffer between Nazi Germany and USSR.

    Hitler never regarded USSR as his, quote ‘ally’.
    He regarded people of USSR, overwhelmingly Slavic peoples, as Untermenschen to be eventually exterminated and the endless, fertile lands West of the Urals be taken and settled by the alleged ‘Master Race’.

    Both Hitler and Stalin knew the non-aggression pact was phony, but pretended.
    Stalin knew Hitler would invade USSR eventually, but not in the summer of 1941: maybe late 1942 or early 1943. Stalin needed the non-aggression pact to prepare for the invasion he knew was coming.

    But Hitler outmaneuvered clever Stalin: when first reports of Nazi invasion started coming in, Stalin went into shock and depression. Generals on the front were pleading for orders, but nobody could reach him. Eventually he came out of it and the rest is history, as they say.

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @Cyrano
    , @Anon
    , @jilles dykstra
  314. AnonFromTN [AKA "Anon"] says:
    @Hippopotamusdrome

    Anon from TN
    Not bad, dude. Zambia used to be Northern Rhodesia a bit over 50 years ago. Southern Rhodesia is called Zimbabwe since 1980. Gambia is a narrow country along the Gambia river right in the middle of Senegal. You sure are on the same page as the US President, he just needs to find Nambia. Won’t be a problem, I am sure.

  315. TT says:
    @RobinG

    Do remember Russia & China were both not strong enough to interfer military to protect its interest and allies from US direct aggression. Their veto have little meaning for Iraq & Libya wars.

    But Russia has recovered substantially, and demonstrated its power in Syria war now.

    China is totally lacking in power projection, the only UNSC member without aircraft carrier and blue water navy for long time. Only very recently did it starts building up Navy.

    It had juz send a Navy fleet to protect its new FTA trade partner Mauritius Maldive under US & India military threat now. Also it helped Philippines defeated US despatched terrorists occupying one of its city. Libya war had reminded China, its expanding global interest needs strong military projection power to protect.

    We will see more such Russia-China military protection of their interests & allies in future, esp when China aircraft carriers operation matured.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  316. Cyrano says:
    @Avery

    Germany invaded the USSR because they needed lebensraum, the USSR invaded Germany in 1945 because the Red Army soldiers needed liebensraum.

    • Replies: @FB
  317. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Ok…now that you are done with the attack mode…at least you acknowledge that I correctly solved the problem…

    Now you are beginning to behave in a constructive way…

    Anyway the Nebo M is the later version and has better parameters all around…azimuth error is only 0.3 deg…elevation error is 1.3 deg…

    Plus it has a bigger aperture…etc…

    I don’t understand your math however…

    ‘…L=2*R*tg (0.5/2) = 2*100 * 0.00436335=876 meters…’

    That actually gives 872.67 m…same as what I got…check your arithmetic…

    ‘…So–how are you going to provide targeting with 800+ meters difference…’

    The Nebo is an acquisition radar…not an engagement radar…you can see in the acquistion boxes that the 64N6E has finer resolution…and it’s also an acquisition radar but in a higher S/X band frequency…

    The engagement radar will be the Grave Stone 92N6E…

    As for the fusion part…well that’s what I’m waiting to hear from you

    I am not an electrical engineer and I have never worked on radars…other than operating one in an aircraft…

    So my idea of fusion as I said already is vague on the details…but my understanding I believe is sound…that by combining signals from several radars…and by taking advantage of their different positions with respect to the target…then something useful can be achieved…

    Just how that is going to be accomplished is… I believe… by a very artful and clever design process…that is why I said that developing these kinds of techniques takes time…which you immediately mocked [in your usual way...]

    But anyway…if you want to carry forward with this discussion then I am game…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  318. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Avery

    Not joking, I read an article about Hitler forced to preemptive Stalin planned attack which make Hitler like a victim. Now I get better understanding. thanks for all comments.

    Hitler invaded Poland to get closer to USSR and Stalin invaded Poland to have a buffer between Nazi Germany and USSR.

    Wasn’t that what Hitler and Stalin agreement to split Poland before both start invading?

    • Replies: @Avery
  319. utu says:
    @Simpleguest

    It sure looks like a rational, albeit cold blooded, calculation on the part of the Russians (and the Chinese).

    The strong can afford to be irrational. Rationality is not a virtue for the weak. It is the only option. Even if 30,000 Chinese workers had to be evacuated from Libya.

  320. FB says:
    @TT

    Another excellent post…TT…

    You really have a very solid perspective…no question you are seeing through the FUKUS Fog of Lies and Bullshit…

    One correction though…I think you mentioned earlier that Medvedev voted for the Libya no fly zone when he was prez…he did not…he simply abstained…

    I remember Putin was quite upset when the bombing started…at one point using the word ‘Crusaders’…which I think was the perfect word to describe the pirates of FUKUS…

    • Replies: @TT
  321. FB says:
    @Cyrano

    ‘…Liebensraum…’

    What a classic you came up with there C…

    Only these were much cozier and warmer ‘living spaces’ than the vast fertile lands west of the Urals…

    PS: watch for the Stormfront gang to come stomping in here now…

    HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW HAW

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  322. @skrik

    I understand that a total power shutdown occurred in buildings 1 and 2, the first in the entire history of the WTC, very shortly prior to the events. This power shutdown was stated to be for “data cabling upgrades”. There is also the case of a large number of “art students” from Israel who were living secretly and illegally inside vacant office space, ostensibly for the purpose of selling art. I’ve also seen pictures online allegedly taken inside the vacant offices showing cardboard cartons with logos that have been said to indicate that the boxes contained detonators. I don’t save that sort of info but it’s out there if anybody cares to look.

  323. Cyrano says:
    @FB

    Thanks man, I am glad that you appreciate my sense of humor. My comment was also meant to point out that the Russians are better people than the Germans. The Germans were looking to steal someone’s land, while all the Russians were looking for – was to steal someone’s heart (OK, that one is a little bit of a stretch).

    • Replies: @FB
  324. @Sparkon

    I found this to be very interesting indeed and I wondered if you would be so kind as to recommend some reading material on the esoteric stuff? Thanks in anticipation.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  325. @Cyrano

    Whereas it would be a near impossibility to underestimate you.

    I’m still wondering why so much money is invested in building blast-furnaces to reach temperatures capable of melting steel when it’s clear (to you anyway) that simply burning kerosine and office furniture debris in a stiff breeze would melt steel sufficiently and at great savings. Thanks.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @Anonymous
  326. pogohere says: • Website
    @Anon

    “Hess and the Penguins: The Holocaust, Antarctica and the Strange Case of Rudolf Hess” by Joseph P Farrell

    In short: British elite decide to dump Churchill while Hess, Hitler’s main man, leads a faction to dump Hitler. Hess’s plane goes off course, and as a result, so do the 2 coups. Some royals have accidents. Some interested parties keep Hess or his double alive for a very long time.

  327. TT says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    There are simply tonnes of articles and sites have indisputably pointed out 911 is a set up false flag. From engineering point of view to that small missile blasted hole without any plane parts debris in Pentagon that was too small for a big Boeing plane impact.

    If someone refuse to accept facts, nothing will convince them unless another MMS BS start to claim so.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  328. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I’ve melted steel using the charcoal in my forge. That is basically just wood I piled in drum and burned real slow with the lid on, and if you’ve ever worked with steel you’d know that gets soft way before melting.

  329. Avery says:
    @Anon

    {Wasn’t that what Hitler and Stalin agreement to split Poland before both start invading?}

    Yes, there was an agreement between the two re Poland (…..but, obviously, each kept their reason to themselves.)

    {….which make Hitler like a victim}

    That is the reason neo-Hitlerite Hitler apologists and WW2 revisionists are peddling that debunked story.

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  330. TT says:
    @FB

    Medvedev look more like a transition pres for Putin. He don’t apear like in power or smart to me. Putin is juz typical cold KGB growing into grand master chess player now after 20yrs in office, his enemies should fear him from inside. Russia may have many excellent potential pres, but the last stupid thing to risk is to change Putin with another unproven one now to unstabilize whole power balance.

    Xi is skilled in 孙子兵法 SunTze, very quiet gentleman but carry a big stick and when he speak, like Mr DengXP, you better listen respectfully. So far, West dare not smear him in msm if you notice when they attack China.

    Putin & Xi are biding for time to prepare many killer strategies behind without confrontation with crazy USNato all these years, now we are seeing them dishing out plate by plate…starting from Petrol Yuan and high gold reserve backing currency to rip out US root. Without free money printing, military collapse.

    They have to strike at weakest point of US, in one Go fully prepared. That’s why US is hysteria reacting now, barking to all its hunting hounds to attack…so all lost direction start desperately howling Russophobe sinophobe…quite interesting to watch isn’t it.

    But little can they do now, military attack is suicidal with Russia-China alliance well prepared AA/AD defense, & nuke is MAD. Financially, both are partnership prepared with high gold & Forex reserve, Swift backup payment system, and literally self sufficient in everything. Trade sanction war has no bearing to Russia, and China simply too big to shake. The real appetizer juz started, the rest is Domino.

    Watch Putin charming EU hearts with his White European Christian WASP value, Xi with Confucian value. Take their wealth and win their hearts, everything follow automatically.

    Take a back seat to watch fireworks, but don’t take away our dear Pres Putin, you Russkies high on West Koolaid. Once US game over, you will have to beg real hard for Putin to stay…he might prefer spent his last ten yrs enjoy his life(with well deserve hidden billions wealth that all China leaders are rewarded for giving their life to country).

    • Replies: @utu
  331. Sparkon says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I was being entirely facetious and sarcastic in my last paragraph. You can learn as much as I know in a few hours with the terms in bold below used as search arguments.

    In fact, I am mostly ignorant of this entire mystic and occult realm myself, including the Kabbalah, and merely stumbled into this area fairly recently when for some reason I’ve forgotten I was reading about the Knights Templar, a Catholic military order founded in 1119, and that led to King Solomon’s temple, the pillars of Jachin and Boaz, and this story about gold and reputed secret knowledge that was buried beneath the temple, and which was discovered and spirited away by the KT during the Crusades. And so I was taken immediately by some seeming parallels or resemblance in these events, and similarities of these symbols.

    Meanwhile, some insist the official story is an unabashed lie and that another reason behind the 9-11 attacks was to pull off the biggest gold heist in history. One of the more outrageous claims along this vein comes from former mob boss Tony Gambino, who declared in a 2007 radio interview: “I know for a fact that Bush [and other] U.S. government leaders had prior knowledge and helped organize 9-11. They did it for many obvious reasons, one being to instigate a war in Iraq. But they also did it to get their hands on all the gold that was hidden below the [WTC].”

    http://americanfreepress.net/how-much-gold-was-under-wtc-complex/

    A key point is that these symbols — Solomon’s Temple, Jachin and Boaz, secret knowledge, gold treasure — have significance to both Freemasons and Jews, and possibly others, including the Founding Fathers

    Bottom line, I see 9/11 has probable occult meaning or significance, possibly as some kind of black magic ritual, complete with a big gold heist, and also to signal the beginning of the Global War on Terror, which in fact could easily be WWIII.

  332. @Anonymous

    Soft and melty doesn’t even remotely describe what happened to those buildings on 9-11.

  333. I love how the Team Russia clowns fly off the handle when the FSB false flag is brought up. Every bit the mewling simps their ostensible opponents on Team America are.

  334. @FB

    Thank you again for your expert and excellent analysis and logically reasoned conclusions. Your speculations are well-researched and a joy to read. We are fortunate to have your contributions in this forum.

    • Replies: @FB
  335. FB says:
    @Cyrano

    I have to agree with the others here on the 911 issue…

    Not going to speculate here about ghost planes etc…or how they might have done it…that’s not the point…point is the official story doesn’t add up…

    Others have mentioned the physics of those buildings pancaking and lots of top engineers and physicists have already done great work on that…

    I’m just going to comment briefly on the aeronautical perspective…

    That one plane coming in on one of the WTC buildings was said to be clocked by ATC radar going 510 knots at 1,000 ft altitude…

    Nobody I know that drives B757s and 767s for a living believes this airplane could reach that speed in the thick air down low…there is just not enough engine thrust…

    At its cruise height of 35,000 ft…going max cruise of mach 0.85…the airplane airspeed indicator on the instrument panel is going to be showing 290 knots…[true airspeed is 490 knots here...]

    That’s because the airspeed indicator works on the pitot principle using pitot tubes that measure the ram air…or total wind resistance working against the airplane…

    [it's like sticking your palm out the window of your car on the freeway and the force you feel on your palm is the dynamic pressure...although much smaller than that obviously...]

    At 35,000 ft the atmosphere is just 30 percent as dense as at sea level…the total wind resistance is called dynamic pressure and is about 300 pounds per square foot on a passenger jet cruising at M0.85…that’s why the airspeed indicator is showing 290 because to the pitot tube it feels like going 290 knots at SL…

    Going 510 knots at 1,000 ft height the dynamic pressure is 990 lb/ft^3…more than three times the wind resistance the airplane is working against at its cruise height and speed…

    That’s insane…

    I’m not sure the airframe could even withstand those stresses without breaking apart…for sure that is well over the maximum indicated and dive speeds by more than 100 knots…for which the plane was certified…

    Even a former Nasa flight director has come out and said this is bogus…you can read about it here…

    This guy has creds out the kazoo…37 year Nasa career…top guy in the AIAA with many papers published…

    Also the way those planes were maneuvered would take incredible skill…[and some luck added]…these are big airplanes of about 150 tons full-up weight…comparable to a B52…

    To fly one of these into the pentagon at a height of 50 ft or whatever…I don’t know anyone who thinks he could do that on the first shot…including top-notch military pilots…

    Remember that B52 that caught a wingtip and crashed at Fairchild AFB back in 1994…that guy was a known hot-dogger…look what happened as the spectators are heard ooing and aaing at his ‘awesome’ skill…

    You’re just not going to fly a big plane like that and get away with it…

    PS…here is a nifty atmospheric calculator you can use to check those numbers on dynamic pressure…

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  336. polskijoe says:
    @Cyrano

    Conspiracies exist.
    And several conspiracy theories turned out real.

    In fact people who believe no conspiracies are the same bad as those who believe everything is conspiracy.

    Im not an expert on 9/11, but there is a lot of shadey stuff there.
    With the owners, dancing Israelis, 3rd building, tests of staging attacks.

    • Replies: @Cyrano
  337. @TT

    Despite there being thousands of pics taken on 9/11 I have yet to see any showing anything like an aircraft part of any kind around the WTC. I would have expected something from the tail section at least falling to the ground but no, nothing. nada, zip, zilch etc.

    • Replies: @TT
  338. FB says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    Thanks for the kind words, my friend…

    We’re all in this quest for truth together here…

  339. RobinG says:
    @TT

    “Do remember Russia & China were both not strong enough to interfer military…”

    How is that relevant? Are you suggesting that voting NO in the UN would have obligated them to engage militarily? Is there a precedent for that? I don’t think so, but there’s plenty of precedent for ignoring UN resolutions, with no consequences. OTOH, the vote is a historical record of positions.

    Anyway, it’s old news, spilt milk, etc., and I appreciate your comments in general.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @yurivku
    , @JL
  340. Johnj says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The US is not France so a Dien Bien Phu is not going to happen. The US can bomb Asad and Syria anytime it wants to and Russia would not have a good response. So Russia is going to have to yield to US plans for Syria. It will be a forced partnership with Russia.

    No amount of air defense can prevent a massive offense from the air. There is no historical evidence for air defense stopping a massive offense. Saker is perhaps delusional, I don’t know.

  341. @Anonymous

    And for how long did the slow heating last? for a hour or more than that? I must have missed the lid on the WTC. Did your steel go from solid to a near liquid consistency in a second or two? Does your steel stay molten for a month after you’ve let the fire die out?

    Of course not! Do you understand just how stupid you appear?

    What sort of office material has the combustible quality of charcoal? Get real! I can understand how a person who has never worked with steel to be ignorant of how steel melts but a guy who owns a forge should understand that for the steel in an entire steel framed building to collapse the way all three did, the steel would have to reach the same super-hot temp throughout the building all at the same time for it to lose its total structural strength in an instant to collapse the way they did.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Anonymous
  342. Cyrano says:
    @polskijoe

    Of course conspiracies exist. I am not anti-conspiracist. I am same as you, my Polish brother, I am not an expert on WTC – as far as the technological feasibility study goes – but from a logical standpoint, the whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me.

    Why would the US government do such a thing? Is it that difficult to sell a war to the Americans? Heck, a five year old could do it. We are not exactly talking about the most peace-loving people on earth.

    When was the last time the Americans “rebelled” against a war? In the 60’s – about Vietnam? They took to rallies back then not because they gave a hoot about the Vietnamese and their suffering, but because too many of them were coming home in a form of parcels.

    They don’t care how many countries their democratically oriented government destroys. The US government could have gotten away with far less elaborate lie to convince the Americans that the war on terror is necessary. Do I look like a person sympathetic to the US government? I am not. And I am not defending them.

    It’s just that the people who think that the US government lies to them have chosen the worst example to prove their point. There are millions of instances where their government lied to them and are much easier to figure them out – if you have any brain at all – and they have chosen one of the rare examples where the US government is telling the truth to dispute it.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @skrik
  343. utu says:
    @TT

    In your scenarios Russia is the weakest link. Partly because they have no heart to go along with China for historical and psychological reasons. They are leveraging for a better offer from the Empire and the Chinese option is their last resort.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @TT
  344. TT says:
    @RobinG

    How is that relevant? Are you suggesting that voting NO in the UN would have obligated them to engage militarily?

    Very relevant, not obliged.

    FUKUS told Russia-China: look, if you veto our Libya No FLY Zone request to save our cockroaches, we gonna unilaterally attacked like Iraq war.

    When they abstained, vultures still bombed illegally. Putin protested with no action.

    China quietly evacuate 30,000 workers & write off billions. Don’t need beg for public humiliation. Juz go home set up blue water Navy.

    Now Russia veto against Fukus every chemical false flag accusation to Syria SAA, with its AirF present.

    Similarly, China will veto UNSC resolution against Mauritius. Its 15 vessels strong Navy already there to warn USIndia against any military intervention.

    I believe if Venezuela or Iran now come under direct threat, both will veto and sent in their military to protect their legit investments.

    Mao: “power emerge from gun barrel”, not mouth or bottom(my words)

    • Replies: @RobinG
  345. yurivku says:
    @TT

    Hi TT,
    it’s funny to read this

    As non Russian, in fact almost all people i know, esp from China, most admired your Pres Putin as a rare charismatic stateman in this chaotic world.

    and then this

    However, should US will to touch Russian motherland or even snatch an island, then you can be assured to see a very different Putin and Russian response.

    You, probably American, explain me, Russian, what MY Pres will do. Please concentrate on yours Pres and Co, do not meddle in our elections and selections.

    I did explain many times and not gonna repeat, you can read what I’ve already said above – It’s a time to hard reaction until too late.

    What about Putin – it’s easy to be clever when surrounded by imbeciles. Of cource he’s the best without any alternatives.
    But as always you, foreigners, having read few books are starting to teach us of our history, now you, knowing nothing of our life starting to make decisions of how we should behave in our future.

    Let us do it ourselves. And once again – Putin is (actually was) ok in international affairs, but he’s not at home.

    • Replies: @TT
  346. yurivku says:
    @RobinG

    However, was not Putin in the loop when Medvedev made the [disastrous] decision to ABSTAIN from UNSC vote, thus enabling destruction of Libya? (China too, of course.)

    Look Robin, this time I gonna lightly approve both. I think they were understanding the consequences, but feel not ready to fight. We all felt awfully that time.
    But now it’s a different case.

    And actually you have to blame not Putin, but US and EU. Those bastards have no excuses.

  347. @Avery

    ” He regarded people of USSR, overwhelmingly Slavic peoples, as Untermenschen to be eventually exterminated ”

    I admire those who can read other people’s minds.

    • Replies: @Avery
  348. @Avery

    I see Germans as victims since say 1914 until now.
    The German problem I see is simple, the most capable nation in the world, with no natural borders.

    • Replies: @Avery
  349. yurivku says:
    @TT

    From:
    Poor Demoralized Weak Declining Corrupted Russia, pillage by West & Oligarchs with short lifespan, fall apart economy & military.

    To:
    Welloff Proud Strong Growing Cleaner Russia, standup to West & contained Oligarchs(every country has corruption & Oligarchs power play), long lifespan, stellar economy & superb military.

    Yes, but his time is over.
    As this always happens he stick to power and trying to freeze the situation.

    Nobody, at least not me, deny his achivements, but it’s time to go further.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @TT
  350. yurivku says:
    @RobinG

    How is that relevant? Are you suggesting that voting NO in the UN would have obligated them to engage militarily? Is there a precedent for that? I don’t think so, but there’s plenty of precedent for ignoring UN resolutions, with no consequences. OTOH, the vote is a historical record of positions.

    Well I almost agree. But probably they were afraid of something we can see now – NoSoColdWar.
    For ZUS needs only a sign of disobedience. Remember for e.g. threats to UN from Nikky Haley.

  351. JL says:
    @RobinG

    It should be noted that the Libya UN vote caused a large, and uncharacteristically public, spat between Medvedev and Putin at the time. Putin deferred to the President, as per the Russian constitution, but was clearly not happy about it. Medvedev had some martial credibility after the Russo-Georgian War, which he formally headed up, but his political prospects were essentially destroyed by what happened in Libya.

    Incidentally, the Kosovo War, and Yeltsin’s inability to respond adequately, were the last straw for his regime, as well. It’s possible that Putin actually seriously considered leaving Medvedev on as his successor. However, the Russians, whether the public and/or elite, do not have tolerance for leaders that do not stand up to American imperialism and aggression.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  352. @Johnj

    Because the US was so much more successful at waging war in Vietnam than the French were, right?

    I’ve crisscrossed the US more times than I could count over many years and knew it well. I have enjoyed the generosity and affection from a great many of the people there so I genuinely don’t want them to suffer. Despite their obvious failings my hope is for a happy, healthy and prosperous America. Nevertheless, if things continue the way they are there will soon be a reckoning that will cause great destruction and suffering from which it will never be able to recover and the American masses will ultimately be mere serfs in their own land for a brutal ruling elite.

    Only Americans themselves can reign in this beast that has the nation by the throat and they must do it soon, whilst they still have the means. It won’t be easy either and I don’t profess to know the solutions but taking on Russia is a no win situation for all except for those who’ve planned to reduce America this way as a means to an end, the end being global domination.

  353. FB says:
    @yurivku

    ‘…Nobody, at least not me, deny his achievements, but it’s time to go further…’

    Yeah…like your Grub buddy is going to take anyone anywhere…

    TT isn’t even from Russia and neither am I…but he makes a hell of a lot more sense than most of the ‘Russians’ I see here…

    Shame…I’ve been to Russia and seen lots of smart people…where do the morons here come from…?

    • Replies: @yurivku
  354. skrik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Perfect free fall, alas no, the collapse was faster than Newtons laws allowed

    Ah! The supplier of the WTC7 ‘controlled demolition’ explosives must have been the same as the supplier of the Blieder drive, or at the least, one of its competitors?

    More seriously, opinions should have been well-formed by now [and some even 'set in concrete!']

    One of our remaining freedoms is to believe what one wishes to, but the concept ‘belief’ has dangers, not the least of which is belief in some ‘supernatural’ entity. According to the ‘conservation’ laws, energy/matter can neither be created nor destroyed; one ‘derivative result’ of that is that *no* communication with any putative supernatural is at all possible; any belief in the supernatural can only be done totally without basis = upon *no* evidence [let alone justification?] Just saying [Freedom! I won't!] – and moving on; there was *nothing* supernatural about the 3 WTC’s collapsing, and the ‘poster child’ is WTC7:

    I usually don’t ‘do’ video [high bandwidth & time cost, low density 'real' info content], but IF anyone still has doubts AND would like to see what I see as a ‘fair assessment’ AND only has time for one video THEN I recommend this one. rgds

  355. yurivku says:
    @FB

    Shame…I’ve been to Russia and seen lots of smart people…where do the morons here come from…?

    Stupid narcissistic moron. I ended up communicating with you, go communicate with fellow tribesmen.
    Looking at people like you I understand where imbeciles like McCain and N.Haley come from.

    • Troll: FB
  356. Randal says:
    @Simpleguest

    So, why use a veto when you can’t make good on your promise.

    Because that way you deny your opponents a legal figleaf, which is not nothing.

    A veto is not a promise of support.

    I suspect there was a calculated expectation, too, that the West would mess things up, as it had already done in Iraq and Afghanistan. And indeed, the West readily obliged. For many, the destruction of Libya was the last straw that helped expose its duplicity and utter incompetence. After Libya, Russia had a string of arguments at hand: Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya.

    It sure looks like a rational, albeit cold blooded, calculation on the part of the Russians (and the Chinese).

    No, my impression was that the Russians and Chinese abstained because they didn’t want to be portrayed as the unreasonable bad guys vetoing a resolution ostensibly so “humanitarian” and limited, and they simply didn’t expect the US sphere to abuse the pretext provided so immediately and so shamelessly. It was quite obvious the Russians and Chinese were both furious about it afterwards, and they notably changed their approach afterwards to be far less cooperative about such resolutions in Syria in particular.

    RobinG is correct imo that it was a clear mistake on their part, but they are only human after all.

    Neither the US regime nor the Russians, nor the Chinese, are superhuman calculating machines manipulating events with cunning certainty and infallible manipulation, as propagandists on each side tend to claim (about their own side or the other, according to need).

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Simpleguest
  357. FB says:

    Couple of Syria related news items this morning caught my eye…

    First this…Russian Sukhoi 57s spotted at Khmeimim…picture not great but clearly its the fifth-gen jet with its signature wing shape…

    Also four Su35s arrived plus the Beriev A50 AWACS aircraft…

    Looks like somebody decided to beef up a bit after that USAF cowboy stunt in Deir Ezzor…

    The F16 takedown might turn out to be the first domino…which would answer the question of how much crap is Russia going to take in Syria…?

    From what I know of the Russian character is that he will give you the first punch…but not the second…

    ————————————————————————————————

    Then from Germany we have this…

    ‘Thank you Mama Merkel’ says a Syrian ‘refugee’ who is getting a free house big enough for his TWO WIVES…[and a houseful of kids...]

    ‘…As a devout Muslim, Ahmad himself also sees no problem with having several wives as it’s in line with Sharia law, which he follows…’

    I have lived in Germany…housing is incredibly expensive…even a small flat…a big house like this… one guy on Twitter estimates rents for 7,500 Euro a month…sounds about right…

    Also getting welfare of course…

    Look at this lunkhead…he hasn’t skipped too many dinners by the look of that big meaty head…

    And guess what…he has a third wife in Syria…but he needs a ‘bigger house’ before bringing her over…

    He proudly tells the film crew that his goal is to have four wives and ten kids…

    Way to go Germany…in 20 years time Germans will be a minority in their own land…if they are even still allowed to stay there by their new Jihadi rulers…

    Also a note here for all those idiots who are yapping about Syria having a high birth rate in the past and this leading to economic problems and eventually war…

    Well what do you think would happen if guys like this…who obviously left Syria because their Jihadi John buddies were getting wiped out…actually took over the country…?

    This is the kind of Syrian ‘opposition’ we’re dealing with right here…and which the US and its EU puppets have been supporting with every dirty trick in the book…lying to their own people all the way…

    And just a little history lesson for the know-nothings that regularly pop up here spouting gas out their rear ends…

    Syria during French rule [right up to the 1950s]…did not allow contraception since it was illegal in Catholic France and every other French-ruled country…

    When the Baath party and Hafez Assad took over they immediately brought in birth control education and support…but didn’t force it…there was much resistance from the conservative Islam society on this and many other issues of modernization…

    Eventually the birth rate came down to where it is now about world median 2.5 kids per household…

    Same in Iraq and the Baath party there…these secular and progressive governments were the best thing that could ever have happened to the Arab world…but they were instant enemies of America which undermined them for years even during Soviet times…

    All because they were ‘socialist’…

    Today US is more insane than ever…why on earth would they support people like this…?

    One reason only…to spite Russia and China…

    The US would cut off its own arm just to bleed on Russia’s shirt…and that’s what they are doing…of course with their little toy puppets EU marching in lockstep…

    Well…pretty soon US will have no ‘arms’ left…literally…they are chopping them off left and right…

    And all this decades of undermining secular and progressive regimes in the Mideast was accomplished by fooling us the people with fairy tales about evil dictators killing their own people etc…

    All the while the CIA stirring up violent opposition movements in all those countries…then when the authorities try to restore order…it’s ‘killing their own people…’

    Then they came up with the WMD bogeyman…which is still being used to good propaganda effect in Syria…

    With these same Jihadi John scumbags cooking up ‘gas attacks’ where they don’t mind frying their own kids…or more likely kids of decent people in their midst who don’t happen to want to go along with them and their Radical Islam…

    It never ceases to amaze how stupid and gullible the sheeple have become…

    Even more incredible is turning on a US news channel and listening to the News Barbies reading out this utter bullshit in their signature aggressive voice tones…

    What I don’t understand is how these utter schmucks can believe their own BS…

    I just can’t get my head around the fact that someone who goes on TV to read news can be either so stupid or such a true Koolaid believer that he just tosses reality aside like a used napkin…

    Do they even realize how ridiculous they look…?

    And what about ‘president’ Dump…?

    The sackless wonder…who came in talking a big game and instantly turns into Howdy Doody…?

    Clearly the writing is on the wall…how much longer can this ridiculous excuse for a society…so deluded and so empty of any real substance…how long can this possibly last…?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  358. @FB

    “Nobody I know that drives B757s and 767s for a living believes this airplane could reach that speed in the thick air down low…there is just not enough engine thrust…”

    I’m not an aeronautical engineer, but from what I’ve read somewhere – although it’s risky and will most likely damage the engines – those planes might be able to reach those speeds at low altitude, for a little while at least, if they are descending.

    • Replies: @FB
  359. @FB

    I don’t understand your math however…

    1. Very easy, I calculated for a tangent line containing a mean value of the width (or length–depends of POV) of the rectangle which appears as the area (I deliberately omit here the third coordinate for simplicity–to avoid calculating volume, which is absolutely not necessary for example purposes), which gives a good grasp of the area of the rectangle ABCD, which is the “size” of the uncertainty for BOTH: azimuth and range. Since the numbers used are related to NEBO-VSU, the range error is not given but for the sake of example we may use Nebo-Ms range error given as 90 meters, so, for the sake of experiment let’s round it up to 100 (for ease of calculation) and it gives us an “area” of uncertainty of 876 *100=8, 760 sq. meters. This is roughly 8-9 football fields.

    I am not an electrical engineer and I have never worked on radars…other than operating one in an aircraft…

    That is beyond the point, I am no radar specialist myself despite the fact of vast experience in using it from navigation to weapons’ use. the issue of data fusion, as I already pointed out, is not about radar–it is about removing of the uncertainty based on data “integration” of which I gave a superb link to Castanedo’s rather easy to read piece about Data Fusion, plus other sources which list a vast range of data fusion applications. E.g.

    Data fusion is a multidisciplinary area that involves several fields, and it is difficult to establish a clear and strict classification. The employed methods and techniques can be divided according to the following criteria: (1)attending to the relations between the input data sources, as proposed by Durrant-Whyte [3]. These relations can be defined as (a) complementary, (b) redundant, or (3) cooperative data;(2)according to the input/output data types and their nature, as proposed by Dasarathy [4]; (3)following an abstraction level of the employed data: (a) raw measurement, (b) signals, and (c) characteristics or decisions;(4)based on the different data fusion levels defined by the JDL;(5)Depending on the architecture type: (a) centralized, (b) decentralized, or (c) distributed.

    It is a good primer. In this particular example it is going to be about addressing (mitigating) uncertainty by both redundant and complementary.

    Just how that is going to be accomplished is… I believe… by a very artful and clever design process…that is why I said that developing these kinds of techniques takes time…which you immediately mocked [in your usual way...]

    I am sorry, but that is not me who copies and pastes here pages upon pages of irrelevant pop-sci data.

    But anyway…if you want to carry forward with this discussion then I am game…

    By now it is not about discussion–it is about demonstrating on a greatly reduced in complexity, for people who read this, example of fusion.

    The Nebo is an acquisition radar…not an engagement radar…you can see in the acquistion boxes that the 64N6E has finer resolution…and it’s also an acquisition radar but in a higher S/X band frequency…

    The engagement radar will be the Grave Stone 92N6E…

    Again, Nebo is used merely as an example. So far, the example covers a classic two Lines of Position (aka Isolines–lines of equal parameter) , which are Azimuth (angle) and Range (circumference).

    at least you acknowledge that I correctly solved the problem…

    When people speak in substance, not platitudes and incompetent generalities, I always appreciate this. Got to run now, will continue later.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
    , @FB
    , @FB
  360. Avery says:
    @jilles dykstra

    {I see Germans as victims since say 1914 until now.}

    I am sure you do.
    All neo-Nazi, neo-Hitlerite apologists for Hitler and the Nazis see the Nazis as, quote, ‘victims’.
    Aren’t you the same delusional denialist that claimed in a thread that Armenians supposedly killed as many Turks during the Armenian Genocide as invading Muslim Turk savages murdered Armenians? I know your denialist ilk: in your delusional upside down universe the murderers are always the ‘victims’. Sure they are.

  361. @Johnj

    Andrei Martyanov in his article explained it really well what will happen if America gets that stupid idea to attack Russian forces in Syria. USA has got a lot of assets in ME which are within range of Russia stand off weaponry and considering loss of Russian assets in Syria to what USA will lose in case of this confrontation it is incomparable adding to this loss of status and face. Response would most likely not get limited by ME and another good target would be those anti missiles sites in Romania and Poland. I actually think those should be prime targets in any case.

  362. Avery says:
    @jilles dykstra

    {I admire those who can read other people’s minds.}

    I don’t admire, but am impressed by the ability of those like youse who can simultaneously live in a delusional universe created entirely in their own mind, and yet go about their daily activities like visiting web sites and posting comments. Fascinating.

  363. @Andrei Martyanov

    876 *100=8, 760 sq. meters

    Sorry, typo: lost one zero. 87600 sq. meters.

  364. FB says:

    You are still using the figure of 876 meters which is wrong…

    I pointed this out to you already that your own numbers give ~873 m

    ie…2* 100 * tan(0.5/2)= 2 * 100 * 0.00436335 = 0.87267 km…or ~873 m…

    By your tangent method or by my circular sector method the result is the same…so please acknowledge your error of 876 meters…

    ‘…I am sorry, but that is not me who copies and pastes here pages upon pages of irrelevant pop-sci data…’

    Once again you go back to your insulting manner…

    Describing my writings as pop-sci is neither accurate nor fair…I’m sure you realize that you are not dealing with an amateur here…

    I have done a good job explaining technical matters in an understandable way…and many people have responded in a very polite and positive way…

    I see no point in further discussing with you further if you are going to insist on gratuitous insults…not acknowledging your math errors…etc…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  365. @Cyrano

    “Of course conspiracies exist. I am not anti-conspiracist. I am same as you, my Polish brother, I am not an expert on WTC – as far as the technological feasibility study goes – but from a logical standpoint, the whole thing just doesn’t make sense to me.”

    You’re either being dishonest, or you’re speaking from pure ignorance.

    “Why would the US government do such a thing? Is it that difficult to sell a war to the Americans? Heck, a five year old could do it. We are not exactly talking about the most peace-loving people on earth.”

    You have no clue. 9/11 was about lots more than an illegal, immoral war against Iraq and/or Afghanistan. The PNACers had big plans. 9/11 was about replacing the “cold war” with another faux “war”; overthrowing the constitution; erecting a domestic police state; effectively consolidating power in the executive branch; and using U.S. military, economic and political power to beat the independent world into submission.

    You see, the demon-possessed madmen were in a panic because now that the “cold war” was apparently “ended” and the people were actually expecting some kind of a “peace dividend” as they’d been promised, how do you now reverse yourself and justify increased military spending, more wars and interventions (beyond Iraq and Afghanistan), etc.? 9/11 was somebody’s answer to that dilemma. It was the “New Pearl Harbor” that they demanded, planned and carried out.

    “When was the last time the Americans “rebelled” against a war? In the 60’s – about Vietnam? They took to rallies back then not because they gave a hoot about the Vietnamese and their suffering, but because too many of them were coming home in a form of parcels.”

    You’re either lying, or demonstrating your embarrassing ignorance. Many, many Americans were opposed to the Vietnam war; not just because of U.S. casualties but because it was immoral; because of the suffering and mass murder of Vietnamese people. Look up Martin Luther King; look up the “Kent State Shootings”; look up the “Weather Underground”; look up the “Pentagon Papers”. Martin Luther King spoke for millions of us…and that’s why they had to murder him.

    “They don’t care how many countries their democratically oriented government destroys. The US government could have gotten away with far less elaborate lie to convince the Americans that the war on terror is necessary. Do I look like a person sympathetic to the US government? I am not. And I am not defending them.”

    First of all, in a very meaningful sense there is actually no such thing as the “U.S. government”. To put it another way, the average person has no government representation whatsoever. The “U.S. government” is a puppet government under the complete control of a Satanic cult. It no longer has any moral or constitutional legitimacy whatsoever and exists solely to do the dirty work of the Satanists who control it. This is not only blatantly obvious to anyone paying attention, but it is also the fulfillment of Biblical prophecy; i.e., it’s become an “image of the beast.” If you don’t understand the Satanic nature of the faux “U.S. government”, your opinions on subjects such as 9/11 are basically worthless.

  366. FB says:
    @Harold Smith

    It could possibly reach that speed in a shallow dive…

    But even reaching that speed in a shallow dive at that low altitude could cause the airplane to come apart…especially after pulling up to level out…which would put huge stress on the wing…

    The 767 is certified for a maximum dive speed of 410 knots indicated…that’s 100 knots below the speed this aircraft supposedly reached…

    One of the things that is a very big issue at high speeds is so-called flutter…or aeroelasticity…

    This is an uncontrollable vibration of the wings or other major flying surfaces like the tail…ailerons etc…

    During certification flight testing the flight test crew spends a big portion of total flight time on flutter testing…increasing speed by tiny increments with each test flight…

    Because it is difficult to predict even with the most sophisticated computer models and even wind tunnel testing…

    Flutter can and does catch test pilots by surprise…there have been many deadly mishaps…these dive tests for flutter are the most dangerous part of flight testing…

    The flutter tests are always done at high altitude for safety…and will push the aircraft to a maximum mach number speed of about 0.96…

    At 35000 ft that’s a true airspeed of ~550 knots…but indicated airspeed is only about 335 knots at this altitude…and dynamic pressure is 322 lb/ft^2…

    At 510 knots at 1,000 ft altitude…the indicated airspeed is 503 knots…and the dynamic pressure is 855 lb/ft^2…a wind resistance nearly three times as high…

    Nobody has ever tested an airplane this size at this kind of flight condition…the wind resistance is just absolutely tremendous…and there is a real possibility that pieces could start coming off…including an engine…

    Also the airplane could be uncontrollable…it is a scenario that is difficult to imagine for any professional pilot…

    The idea that an amateur who has only taken a few flying lessons in a 2000 lb Cessna could fly an airplane at this speed and altitude in a controllable manner…and after pulling out of a dive without breaking the wings off…well that is difficult to imagine…

    • Replies: @skrik
  367. @FB

    I pointed this out to you already that your own numbers give ~873 m

    OK, 873. Somehow 876 got into my mind.

    Once again you go back to your insulting manner…

    Do you need me to quote you in this thread?

    But again, pointing out to you constantly posting here a truckload of irrelevant information is not insulting. I challenge what you post, not you personally. The solution is very simple–on some things you will be called out. If you don’t want to be called out–don’t present your fantasies as a fact. In one thread you spent days proving that it is normal MO of S-400 to move, in fact run, from the salvo instead of performing its main duty–repulse this salvo. Now you are beginning to constantly evade the fact that data fusion has been around for a very long time, not to mention that–your statement–Nebo-M (or whatever) was designed around data fusion. You still continue to present false facts. Such as this:

    Just how that is going to be accomplished is… I believe… by a very artful and clever design process…that is why I said that developing these kinds of techniques takes time…which you immediately mocked [in your usual way...]

    I repeat again, anything providing I/O is “capable” to be fused, yet you continue to present math concept and algorithms for which they were written (and are being improved as the time passes) as some kind of design feature. It is not. Any modern system, from sonar, to radar, to optronic runs on good enough processors (and architecture) which allows to simply upload the software and make it “fusion”-capable. The only thing one needs is I/O which such systems provide by definition. Look attentively at Castanedo’s bibliography and see for yourself years when concepts were already presented as structured concept. Do years of 1977, 1982 or 1988, as an example, say anything to you? Just a few.

    H. F. Durrant-Whyte, “Sensor models and multisensor integration,” International Journal of Robotics Research, vol. 7, no. 6, pp. 97–113, 1988. View at Google Scholar · View at Scopus

    S. Lloyd, “Least squares quantization in pcm,” IEEE Transactions on Information Theory, vol. 28, no. 2, pp. 129–137, 1982. View at Google Scholar · View at Scopus

    C. L. Morefield, “Application of 0-1 integer programming to multitarget tracking problems,” IEEE Transactions on Automatic Control, vol. 22, no. 3, pp. 302–312, 1977. View at Google Scholar · View at Scopus

    You still continue, though:

    I have done a good job explaining technical matters in an understandable way…and many people have responded in a very polite and positive way…

    I am very happy for you but explain to me how can one do a good job without even remote understanding of the processes one “explains”? Again, you are trying to “explain” here data processing which was around for ages and, in fact, first primitive data fusion was done by serious navigators (especially military ones) for ages combining and actually “fusing” heterogeneous inputs (measurements) doing this on weighted and probabilistic properties (and gradient-vectors) of Lines of Position (Isolines)–the same principles realized in radar, sonar etc. This is what I am trying to explain to people here–give me good Ethernet (or data link) to ancient S-75 with their digitized I/O and all data can be fused if one has decent enough processor and soft.

    Describing my writings as pop-sci is neither accurate nor fair…I’m sure you realize that you are not dealing with an amateur here…

    No, I didn’t realize this. But again, I don’t care if you are “professional” or amateur–I challenge crap which you post here as some kind of tactical and scientific wisdom, which it is even remotely not.

    I see no point in further discussing with you further if you are going to insist on gratuitous insults…not acknowledging your math errors…etc…

    I write for people here, not for you in particular–I merely used one of your fantasies (among number of them) to show people what data fusion is in principle. There is no “discussion” here–to discuss anything both parties have to have at least common understanding of the subject, which you do not have. Simple as that.

    • Replies: @FB
  368. RobinG says:
    @TT

    Fine, but you’re still not saying how Russia (or China) would have been worse off if they vetoed.

    • Replies: @TT
  369. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FB

    how much longer can this ridiculous excuse for a society…so deluded and so empty of any real substance…how long can this possibly last…?

    Well you’re the numbers guy. Figure it out. The Western nations, excluding their immigrant replacements like the polygamous fat-headed Syrian in Germany that you mention, have a fertility rate of less than two-thirds the replacement rate, and in Italy, Germany and Eastern Europe, the fertility rate is not much above half the replacement rate, yet the population of Europe is booming — just not with Europeans.

    But, in fact, the numbers have already been crunched. In Britain, an Oxford professor estimates 2060 as the year when Britons will be a minority in their own home. For European Americans, minority status, as heralded by the then Rapist-in-Chief in his 1998 commencement address at Portland State University will occur by 2040.

    So no need to ask how long “this ridiculous excuse for a society” can last. It’s finished. It is engaged in its final act: elite directed self-genocide.

    • Replies: @FB
  370. RobinG says:
    @JL

    Thank you. I seem to recall that, and it’s reassuring if I’m in agreement with VVP. Don’t know why TT and Yuri go on rationalizing what was bad judgment.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  371. skrik says:
    @Cyrano

    one of the rare examples where the US government is telling the truth

    Ooops! You are clearly using a wrong nom de plume; ‘be a real man’ and admit it: You are actually Joe King, eh?

  372. RobinG says:
    @Randal

    Very good post, insights, Randal.

    “….deny your opponents a legal figleaf, which is not nothing.”
    YES. That’s the fuckin’ point.

    “….they are only human …”
    Indeed. (sigh)

  373. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘…Very easy, I calculated for a tangent line containing a mean value of the width (or length–depends of POV) of the rectangle which appears as the area…’

    My method gets the same results in a simpler way…

    Here we solve for the arc length ‘s’ as I noted in my method…

    What you have done is solve for the length of the straight tangent line…

    The arc length is found by radius x the angle in radians…

    …which is 0.00872664625997165…

    That’s 15 significant digits the max for floating point ops under IEEE standard…

    We find the arc length by multiplying by the radius of 100 km x 1000 m per km…

    and get…872.664625997165 meters…

    Your tangent method gives…

    …2 x 100 x tan(0.5/2) x 1000 = 200,000 x 0.00436332312998582 = 872.664625997165 m

    The exact same result…

    multiplying that by the range error of 100 m gives 87,266.4625997165…

    That’s the maximum accuracy we can get with floating point…

    Rounded off that is 87,266 m^2…or ~87,300 m^2…

  374. FB says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I actually agree with you on this issue…must be your Celtic blood coming through for a change…

    It is suicide for the sheeple orchestrated by the scumbag elite…

    Everyone knows by now that Radical Islam’s Master Plan is a 100 year war against the ‘infidels’…

    And their method of choice…as every one of these meatheads will be happy to tell you… is to procreate like crazy until they drown us out…

    I’m not a racist and I have nothing actually against genuine refugees and some reasonable immigration where the demographics of the nation are not butchered…

    But this is insane…

  375. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @utu

    They[Russians] are leveraging for a better offer from the Empire and the Chinese option is their last resort.

    Better? The Empire offers only one deal: open borders, national suicide, and NATO occupation.

  376. skrik says:
    @FB

    Nobody has ever tested an airplane this size at this kind of flight condition…

    Interesting. Looks a bit like “What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?”

    Posit: The speed reports are lies. rgds

  377. yurivku says:
    @RobinG

    Just a sec, I.do not approve it, I just trying to explain the possible reasons

  378. @skrik

    “Posit: The speed reports are lies.”

    That seems to be the most plausible explanation.

  379. Wow. Okay. Was hoping for more discussion of Syria on this thread, but I suppose hope isn’t a plan.

    Over the past 72 hours, at least 310 have been killed in the area, with over 1,500 wounded. The wounded include over 700 in dire need of treatment, which naturally overwhelmed the hospitals in the area.

    The United Nations has denounced the bombardment, which has struck hospitals and other civilian infrastructure, saying such attacks could be war crimes.

    U.N. Secretary-General Antonio Guterres appealed for an “immediate suspension of all war activities in eastern Ghouta”. Speaking to the U.N. Security Council Guterres said residents were living in “hell on earth”.

    Guterres expressed support for a Swedish and Kuwaiti push for the 15-member council to demand a 30-day ceasefire in Syria. Diplomats said the council could vote on a draft resolution in the coming days. But Assad’s veto-wielding ally Russia has called the proposal “not realistic”.

    “We cannot simply decide that there is a ceasefire. That’s a long and complex process to achieve,” Russian U.N. Ambassador Vassily Nebenzia told Reuters of the draft ceasefire resolution.

    “But we are working on (the draft).”

    This report is a little hard to believe since Assad and the Russians only target terrorists and have never done anything wrong. Russia is a peace-loving nation, after all, always trying to stop the bloodshed.

    • Troll: FB, RobinG
    • Replies: @TT
  380. FB says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    ‘…But again, pointing out to you constantly posting here a truckload of irrelevant information…’

    ‘…don’t present your fantasies as a fact…’

    ‘…I am very happy for you but explain to me how can one do a good job without even remote understanding of the processes one “explains”?..’

    ‘…I challenge crap which you post here as some kind of tactical and scientific wisdom, which it is even remotely not…’

    ‘…I merely used one of your fantasies (among number of them) to show people what data fusion is in principle…’

    Well…that is quite the collection of arrogant insults…could be some kind of record for a single comment…

    My impression of you was clearly correct from the beginning…you have some limited amount of technical knowledge…but your ad hominem style does not jibe with any kind of professionalism…

    In my experience I have never interacted with people on this street level…because along with the bad manners always comes poor understanding of science…

    Types like you are a dime a dozen…they can never reach the major league level because they don’t understand that learning is a lifelong process…and it requires a certain amount of humility to learn…you don’t possess that quality…which is why you lash out like this…

    Everything you have said about me actually applies to you…

    ‘…In one thread you spent days proving that it is normal MO of S-400 to move, in fact run, from the salvo instead of performing its main duty–repulse this salvo…’

    No…it was you who wrote a completely ridiculous article where you posited that the US would attack the Russian IADS in Syria by means of a massive cruise missile salvo

    I pointed out that this is nonsensical and that cruise missiles are not and have never in history been used in a SEAD role…suppression of enemy air defenses…

    So your above statement is ridiculous to begin with…such a scenario of a cruise missile salvo and the S400 standing in their known positions and trying to repel that is pure fantasy…

    Repelling cruise missiles is not what they were designed for…they were designed for defending against air attacks by piloted [and specialized] aircraft trying to kill the SAMs and their radars…

    It is a fact that mobility is a key capability of third and fourth generation SAMs…that is why every component including the radars, launchers etc…is carried on highly mobile chassis…

    This makes the attacking SEAD job much much tougher…as every air combat practitioner and theoretician knows very well…

    Of course you weren’t happy that a major blunder on your part was exposed…but instead of learning from that…you continue on your way in trying to get into some kind of contest with me…which is exactly what I would expect a minor-leaguer to do…

    Now here with respect to the data fusion you revert back to your word games…

    ‘…I repeat again, anything providing I/O is “capable” to be fused, yet you continue to present math concept and algorithms for which they were written (and are being improved as the time passes) as some kind of design feature. It is not.

    Any modern system, from sonar, to radar, to optronic runs on good enough processors (and architecture) which allows to simply upload the software and make it “fusion”-capable…’

    Aha…now you have snagged yourself in your own web of BS…

    I have said from the beginning that being capable of networking is simply the pre-requisite to data fusion…and now you say… ‘sure just upload some software and make it fusion-capable…’

    But you present no insight into fusion whatsoever…which I was actually hoping and which is why I decided to overlook your rude behavior and see what you can offer…

    Well it turns out you offer nothing…

    ‘…data processing which was around for ages and, in fact, first primitive data fusion was done by serious navigators (especially military ones) for ages combining and actually “fusing” heterogeneous inputs (measurements)…

    …doing this on weighted and probabilistic properties (and gradient-vectors) of Lines of Position (Isolines)–the same principles realized in radar, sonar etc.

    This is what I am trying to explain to people here–give me good Ethernet (or data link) to ancient S-75 with their digitized I/O and all data can be fused if one has decent enough processor and soft[ware]…’

    What the heck does that add up to…?

    What does all that verbiage actually tell me about data fusion and any particular capability…especially with respect to SAMs…?

    Nothing…it’s a whole big nothingburger that’s what…

    ‘…all data can be fused…’

    Okay…we understand that…you have said that already 100 times…

    But what new capabilities do you now have as a result…?

    And…if possible for those of us who like to ‘look under the hood’…how are these capabilities achieved by fusing data…?

    You have said nothing about this…

    Well here is what I have already said…and I don’t pretend to be an expert on radar fusion…

    I said very clearly that the three radars in the Nebo complex…each operating on a different wavelength…and each positioned separately…could…by means of data fusion…produce a ‘virtual’ target track that is more precise than each of the radars simply being networked together…

    In the simple networking scenario…I described how starting with the lowest frequency and therefore least accurate radar…how that radar could cue the next higher frequency radar to focus its power on a specific sector already identified by the previous one…

    …thus allowing the second radar to focus more power on a smaller area than it would without being cued by the first radar…

    The third radar would follow the second in the same way…and again derive a benefit from being able to concentrate its power on a small area already identified instead of scattering its power by scanning the entire sky…

    This is how I understand a simple networking system…

    The data fusion is the next step whereby this process is enhanced by clever programming that not only cues the next radar…but actually creates a composite target track…or virtual target track if you will…

    This virtual target track would need to offer a better accuracy than could be achieved by just the sequential cuing method…in order for it to have any utility…

    That might be accomplished by means of knowing the characteristics of the various radars in the fusion system…and figuring out how to leverage those characteristics to create a combination [or composite] that is better than its constituent parts…ie some kind of synergy…

    For example using the multistatic principle already can yield some results along this line…for instance triangulation can be performed…and this result compared to the individual results…etc…

    So this is an example of how one might approach this…clearly it is something that is going to take time to evolve and develop techniques that will work well…

    So I had already defined quite specifically how I viewed the data fusion concept a number of posts ago…

    But you attacked this as ridiculous…and what have you now shown…?

    A big fat zero…

    ‘…I write for people here…’

    Well do us all a favor…and take a sabbatical…

    You have nothing to offer…I plainly see that and I state it clear as a bell…

    You have done absolutely zero to explain anything about data fusion in a coherent way…

    And since I expect you never will…I surely welcome your signing off on this subject…

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  381. @FB

    My method gets the same results in a simpler way…

    Facepalm. Since it is “simpler”, then you will have absolutely no difficulty explaining what is this and what its relation to data fusion:

    This extremely simplified “primer” (there is a trick to it in case of relation of the “parameters”) but it fits Dassarathy Classification of:

    data in-data out (DAI-DAO): this type is the most basic or elementary data fusion method that is considered in classification. This type of data fusion process inputs and outputs raw data; the results are typically more reliable or accurate. Data fusion at this level is conducted immediately after the data are gathered from the sensors. The algorithms employed at this level are based on signal and image processing algorithms;

    It has everything to do with PDF (not what you think) and was used for a long-long time. I’ll give you a hint–if you look under the radical, at radicant–you may find some familiar “faces”.

    • Replies: @utu
  382. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Most plastic I’ve seen burns way better that charcoal and steel doesn’t have to be “super hot” or whatever that is for you to work it. I could do that with forced air and old furniture. I don’t know about the rest of your post. What I can see is that steel loses its ability to support weight way before it melts and once that happens it goes from being a static load to a dynamic one with all the issues that entails.

    This sounds like your field of expertise though – the reading of crackpot websites, not structural engineering. Tell me more about how something has to “lose all structural strength in an instant” and be uniformly “super-hot” in order to collapse.

    • Agree: Cyrano
    • Replies: @FB
    , @Johnny Rico
    , @NoseytheDuke
  383. @Randal

    The Russian intervention in Syria shows what it takes to protect a country attacked by the West.

    And even there, Russia alone could not have done much if it were not for the Syrian army, Iran and various Shiite militias.

    With army degraded over years of neglect and sanctions, Gaddafi was doomed.
    Russia is not capable of projecting conventional power beyond the Levant and the Persian Gulf.

    When you have a really weak hand, you step back. It’s not superhuman thinking, it’s just “cold blooded” common sense. If your opponent screws up, it’s an added bonus.

    Finally, suppose they did veto the resolution.

    It is very possible that some “false flag” would have occurred to justify intervention without UN resolution (remember Syrian “red lines”).

    Russia was not going to be able to prove anything and stop the intervention. Moreover, it was going to be accused again that it protects “brutal murderers”, “tyrants” and so on, we know the script well.

    Abstention, in my opinion, turned better, since the West was again exposed “lying through its teeth” which for many was the final straw.

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Randal
  384. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @FB

    I don’t know about that stuff, but I’ve really enjoyed you two stepping on your dicks. Way more fun to read than the original article. You really aught to make a joint publication in an alternating format so you can keep taking pot shots at each other. It would be a hoot to read and maybe even informative.

    • Agree: bluedog
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  385. FB says:
    @Anonymous

    First off…how much effort does it take to come up with a handle in order to post here…?

    Having a ‘handle’ does not make you any less anonymous…

    I usually don’t reply to ‘anonymous’ commenters because too many in the fray gets confusing…

    ‘…This sounds like your field of expertise though – the reading of crackpot websites, not structural engineering. Tell me more about how something has to “lose all structural strength in an instant” and be uniformly “super-hot” in order to collapse…’

    Sure I will explain it to you…

    In order for any building to collapse into its own footprint…each and every one of its structural supports must be severed at precisely the same instant in time…

    Otherwise it will fall over to one side…not straight down…

    This is known to every structural engineer and the specialists that perform building demolition…

    The WTC towers had a somewhat unique structure in that they consisted of many more upright members than typical…It was several dozens… maybe more than 100…just from memory…[I'm sure someone here will have the exact data at hand...]

    That means that for the building to collapse into its own footprint each of those dozens of upright steel columns would have had to be severed at the exact same moment…

    Think of a three-legged stool…three legs is the minimum [tripod] amount of uprights that will give a stable structure…

    What happens if someone sits on the stool and one of the three legs gives way…?

    The person falls over in the direction of the leg that collapsed…

    Here is how that looks with a building…some more examples there too…[demolitions gone wrong]

    Also will note here…you are quite mouthy for a know-nothing…

    • Agree: Miro23
    • Replies: @renfro
  386. @FB

    And since I expect you never will…I surely welcome your signing off on this subject…

    Hm, first time I heard about signing off. In fact, look above–I specifically ask you about what is it that you are looking at. Spare me your verbose demagoguery, and tell me what is it you are looking for? I’ll give you an additional hint–it has everything to do with:

    Pd is the detection probability of the correct measurement, and Pg is the validation probability of a detected value.

    I again, defer to an excellent Castanedo’s review and point you to this Data Fusion Classification by JDL:

    (i)sources: the sources are in charge of providing the input data. Different types of sources can be employed, such as sensors, a priori information (references or geographic data), databases, and human inputs;(ii)human-computer interaction (HCI): HCI is an interface that allows inputs to the system from the operators and produces outputs to the operators. HCI includes queries, commands, and information on the obtained results and alarms;(iii)database management system: the database management system stores the provided information and the fused results. This system is a critical component because of the large amount of highly diverse information that is stored.

    At level (i), for what I posted (see formula), it used to be (see in bold) the use of tables and data bases, which had different storage modes–from paper to digital. Today, of course, everything could easily be, and it was done, moved into the almost fully automatic mode and it ranges from Combat Informational Control Systems (which are the best examples of data fusion since fuse every single sensor on-board) to “large” data fusion be it within complex or larger network. In fact, CEC (Cooperative Engagement Capability) where data is mutually fused (not just exchanged) on every node of the CEC network. I defer again to Castanedo:

    Depending on the architecture type: (a) centralized, (b) decentralized, or (c) distributed.

    In case of modern weapons most of the time we deal with (c)–distributed, which also means that every node is capable of “fusing” on its own and distribution of fused data is accesible by everyone. But back to simpler things.

    F.e. Here is a salvo of 3m54 from one of the Project 21631 MRK. You can easily see in the video both CO’s Console of the Combat Management System and larger Screen of the tactical situation display–all of the data there is fused. Not just in complementary mode but both redundant and cooperative. F.e, targets are tracked both by radar, sonar and visual simultaneously and are represented as a single, weighted and Probability Gate satisfying, symbol. In fact, depending on the a priori data bases of electronic, IR, UV, visual etc. signatures one can get not only a reliable (so called Trusted Probability) position of the target but know WHAT is this target, what it is doing and even who is in charge. All that is done using data fusion.

    And please, again, spare me your massive sets of words and answer the question. What is this formula?

    P.S. In the GKP (Main Command Post) of the ship in video there is a board which is closed by curtain, guess what it is used for?

  387. Randal says:
    @Simpleguest

    The Russian intervention in Syria shows what it takes to protect a country attacked by the West.

    And even there, Russia alone could not have done much if it were not for the Syrian army, Iran and various Shiite militias.

    With army degraded over years of neglect and sanctions, Gaddafi was doomed.
    Russia is not capable of projecting conventional power beyond the Levant and the Persian Gulf.

    When you have a really weak hand, you step back. It’s not superhuman thinking, it’s just “cold blooded” common sense. If your opponent screws up, it’s an added bonus.

    All of that is true, but utterly irrelevant to the issue under discussion. Once again, vetoing the resolution in no way implies any commitment to defend Libya, or indeed act in any way afterwards. It just denies the US and its poodles what they subsequently took as a legal authority for intervention.

    Finally, suppose they did veto the resolution.

    It is very possible that some “false flag” would have occurred to justify intervention without UN resolution (remember Syrian “red lines”).

    Russia was not going to be able to prove anything and stop the intervention.

    Again, this is true, but again not really relevant. At least forcing the US sphere to go to the effort of mounting a false flag or to openly flout international law again would have been beneficial in itself, and a lot more discrediting than what they did.

    Moreover, it was going to be accused again that it protects “brutal murderers”, “tyrants” and so on, we know the script well.

    Yes, that’s the reason they thought not vetoing the resolution was a good idea, not realising it would or could be so shamelessly exploited as it was, in the event.

    Abstention, in my opinion, turned better, since the West was again exposed “lying through its teeth” which for many was the final straw.

    No, most people who weren’t already alert to what is going on just swallowed the US sphere mass media propaganda that said the US’s poodles were “enforcing the UNSC resolution”. There was little criticism of the Libya operation until it emerged later what disastrous results it had.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @utu
  388. RobinG says:
    @Randal

    Agree 100%. Thank you for making a measured response, as all I could do is refrain from remarking on SimpleDeadFishGuest’s demonstrated ugliness of spirit.

  389. @Anonymous

    This sounds like your field of expertise though – the reading of crackpot websites

    Hahahaaaaaa! Outstanding. Thank you.

    My only question regarding FB is how he has any time left in the day to work on cloning Stalin. He writes literally a book’s worth of comments on UNZ every day. All in that creepy, serial-killer style.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  390. utu says:
    @Randal

    Abstention, in my opinion, turned better, since the West was again exposed “lying through its teeth” which for many was the final straw.

    This sounds like it came from the Russia’s-sh…t-does-not-stink camp.

  391. utu says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    How do you post equations here? Thanks.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  392. @utu

    How do you post equations here? Thanks.

    When at work (which I currently am), about to go home, I use Equation Editor in Word and then save Word file to PDF. PDF has a feature called Snap Shot, so basically I Snap Shot it and then paste into the Paint. Save as Jpg. If at home, I have Flash S3.0 and I can use many features there. But first method complex equation forms-wise is much preferred, to be honest. Then I post Jpeg in my blog and copy link location to the image. I am sure you can post image anywhere on net with their free file depositories. Hope it helps.

    • Replies: @utu
    , @yurivku
  393. FB says:

    I just can’t get over that fathead Syrian ‘refugee’ sitting in that big free house in Germany with his two wives…and six children…and drawing a welfare check…

    I can just imagine how the refugee processing interview went there in Germany…

    German Refugee Official:

    ‘…Could you tell us how you came to be a refugee…’

    Freeloading Fathead:

    ‘…Sure ma’am…you see a helicopter piloted by Assad himself dropped a barrel bomb full of Sarin Gas on our house…destroying it…but lucky the White Helmets were there to save my family and get us to Germany…’

    German Refugee Official…[choking back tears]:

    ‘…Oh you poor dears…well we certainly need more people like you right here in Shleswig-Holstein…don’t you worry about a thing…we have a nice big two-story house for you so your two wives can have separate floors…it only costs us about 7,500 euro a month to rent…[market value 1 million euro]…

    …and don’t you even think about working…even though you are 32 and look like you could outpull a Massey Ferguson tractor…you will be getting a nice big welfare check so you can go and buy all the Halal meat from your friendly neighborhood Jihadi butcher [who is also on welfare]…’

    Freeloading Fathead:

    ‘…Oh thank you Mama Merkel…may Allah bless you and all the nice German people…’

    Freeloading Fathead…[Chuckling to himself ]:

    ‘…These stupid kafirs are even dumber than my friend Jihadi John told me…who knows maybe later I can bonk one of these stupid German broads…after all it is our right by Allah…’

    And here is what happens when a poor Syrian Christian guy and his starving family show up for their interview…

    German Refugee Official:

    ‘…So please tell us how you became a refugee…’

    Poor Christian Guy:

    ‘…Well you see ma’am…the ISIS came to our town and killed half the people…including two of my sons…but we managed to escape and take shelter in the monastery until the Syrian gov’t troops arrived and chased ISIS away…’

    German Refugee Official:

    ‘…Hmm…I see…so you are not really a refugee in the true sense of the word…?’

    Poor Christian Guy…Speechless…mouth gaping…

    German Refugee Official:

    ‘…Soo…I think we really can’t help you at this time…have a nice trip to wherever it is you will be going and good luck…’

    This scenario would fit the known facts…since today Sweden is pushing a 30 day ceasefire in Syria becauase the Jihadi Johns in East Ghouta are getting pasted by the SAA…

    And for the last few days all we have been hearing on the fake news channels is how these poor Jihadi Johns with their multiple wives and kids are in dire need of a ceasefire and ‘humanitarian’ assistance…

    Not to mention more CIA weapons…since they are running out of shells with which they are bombarding pedestrians and children in Damascus city center…

    And of course the only ‘verfiable’ source for this ‘humanitarian’ catastrophe is…The White Helmets…[since the Jihadi Johns won't allow in any reporters unless they consent to have their head chopped off later...]

    • Replies: @FB
    , @NoseytheDuke
  394. utu says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Thanks. Perhaps you could try this to directly generate jpeg or png file with and explicit url. Should be much faster.

    https://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php

    But my question is about the format in comments here to embed the link?

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  395. FB says:
    @FB

    Here is that Freeloading Fathead…

    • Replies: @Sergey Krieger
  396. FB says:

    And here’s another hard-hitting piece of ‘journalism’ from CNN…

    Ambushing an elderly woman in front of her house and accusing her of ‘siding’ with Russian trolls…

    This is a private citizen…not a public figure…I guess anybody is fair game now in the ‘home of the free’…

    http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/20/media/internet-research-agency-unwitting-trump-supporters/index.html?sr=twCNN022018internet-research-agency-unwitting-trump-supporters0903PMStory

    ‘…Are you now…or have y0u ever been a Russian…?’

  397. @skrik

    As were the videos of the “highjackers” proceeding through boarding checkpoints, as were the pilot to ATC conversations, as were the passenger cell phone conversations to their loved ones and on and on it goes. Just about everything we’ve been told about it is lies and pure theatre. Too bad so many people can’t process the truth.

    There’s that beautiful quote at the beginning of the Zeitgeist film, “they shall find it difficult, they who have taken authority as truth rather than truth as authority” Gerald Massey.

  398. renfro says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Who had the power to control the investigation and effect a cover-up?

    Here’s a list of suspects……appointed by Johnson, he covered up the deliberate Israeli attack on the USS Liberty so what else would he cover up?

    Warren Committee

    Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States (chairman) (1891–1974)
    Richard Russell, Jr. (D-Georgia), U.S. Senator, (1897–1971)
    John Sherman Cooper (R-Kentucky), U.S. Senator (1901–1991)
    Hale Boggs (D-Louisiana), U.S. Representative, House Majority Whip (1914–1972)
    Gerald Ford (R-Michigan), U.S. Representative (later 38th President of the United States), House Minority Leader (1913–2006)
    Allen Welsh Dulles, former Director of Central Intelligence and head of the Central Intelligence Agency (1893–1969)
    John J. McCloy, former President of the World Bank (1895–1989)
    General counselJ. Lee Rankin (1907-1996)

    Assistant counselFrancis William Holbrooke Adams (1904-1990)
    Joseph A. Ball (1902-2000)
    David W. Belin (1928-1999)
    William T. Coleman, Jr. (1920-2017)
    Melvin Aron Eisenberg
    Burt W. Griffin
    Leon D. Hubert, Jr.
    Albert E. Jenner, Jr. (1907-1988)
    Wesley J. Liebeler
    Norman Redlich (1925-2011)
    W. David Slawson
    Arlen Specter (1930-2012)
    Samuel A. Stern
    Howard P. Willens (liaison with the Department of Justice)
    StaffPhilip Barson
    Edward A. Conroy
    John Hart Ely (1938-2003)
    Alfred Goldberg
    Murray J. Laulicht
    Arthur J. Marmor
    Richard M. Mosk (1939-2016)
    John J. O’Brien (1919-2001)
    Stuart R. Pollak (1937-)
    Alfredda Scobey
    Charles N. Shaffer, Jr.
    Lloyd L. Weinreb (1936-)

    *During the Kennedy Administration, Dulles faced increasing criticism. In autumn 1961, following the Bay of Pigs incident and Algiers putsch against Charles de Gaulle, Dulles and his entourage, including Deputy Director for Plans Richard M. Bissell Jr. and Deputy Director Charles Cabell, were forced to resign. On November 28, 1961, Kennedy presented Dulles with the National Security Medal at the CIA Headquarters in Langley, Virginia. The next day, November 29, the White House released a resignation letter signed by Dulles.[28]
    On November 29, 1963, President Lyndon Baines Johnson appointed Dulles as one of seven commissioners of the Warren Commission to investigate the assassination of the U.S. President John F. Kennedy. The appointment was later criticized by some historians, who have noted that Kennedy had fired him, and he was therefore unlikely to be impartial in passing the judgments charged to the Warren Commission.

  399. @Anonymous

    If you are the forge owning Anonymous then I have to ask why you use charcoal in your little forge and not plastic since waste plastic is abundant and (according to you) would provide greater heat?

    As for steel losing its structural strength when heated, try heating a piece of wire on the gas stove and you’ll see it quickly turns red or yellow and bends easily. Now try it with a kitchen knife and you’ll see it takes much longer. Now try with a tire iron from your garage, you’ll be advised to bring a stool to sit on as it will take a very long time and it will not bend easily. Now take a look at the thickness of those WTC steel support beams.

    I stated that they would have to turn to liquid instantly throughout the building in order to fall that way because if as you say the steel merely softened then the buildings would have twisted and slumped to one side or another.

    This is such basic stuff, one hardly needs a degree in physics to grasp it. Perhaps you could ask a local high school student to explain this to you. I’m not aware of it but there may even be a book called Basic Physics for Dummies.

    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
  400. @Johnny Rico

    Johnny Pobre, It’s none of your business how any Unz commenter chooses to spend their time but, thankfully for everyone here, you spend very little time on your comments and every second of it is wasted

    • Agree: FB
    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  401. renfro says:
    @FB

    That means that for the building to collapse into its own footprint each of those dozens of upright steel columns would have had to be severed at the exact same moment…

    I’m no engineer but part of my family is and builds skyscrapers, bridges and hospitals, etc..
    So my general knowledge from their conversations is that this is correct.
    Steel bends at a certain temp —so what are the chances that all the beams not only reached the bend temp at the same time but also the beams all bent and collapsed either inward or outward at the exact same time to cause the first falling floor to perfectly pancake down and not slant to one side or the other?

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
  402. @Anonymous

    It’s already been informative anyway. Clearly these are two very smart and highly educated individuals with a wealth of experience between them in their respective specialist fields. I have little doubt that were this conversation taking place face to face at some sort of convention there would be camaraderie and mutual respect. The internet facilitates some of the less pleasant aspects of communication but we less technical unz readers have benefitted by having a better understanding of some very complex systems, which probably is why we are here.

  403. @NoseytheDuke

    Haha, good one, you old drunk. Way to stand up for the resident crazy person.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  404. @renfro

    It is theorized that the jet fuel went down the elevator shafts and ignited. So the steel would have heated to like 1100 degrees or something at the same time on all the lower floors.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @Sparkon
  405. FB says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Holy Smokes…

    Thanks for those links Nosey…

    I have to admit I haven’t been following the migrant story much at all…so all of this is kind of ‘news to me…’

    Nothing surprising of course…

    Just want to make clear that there is nothing wrong with a nation having a sound and even generous social welfare system…I think it all ties into making society more equitable…which in fact even so-called ‘socialist’ governments are not doing much of…[as the one percent just scoops up all the cream...]

    But really had no idea of the abuses going on with the system in the UK…that is really unbelievable…

    I was reading some of those comments in that twitter thread on the German story…and what I could make out with my faltering German is how mild these comments are…nobody actually said a harsh word about this Freeloading Fathead…

    It’s as if the people in Germany are sort of stigmatized if they speak out that they will be lumped in the Far Right and the openly anti-migrant AfD party…which are laughably called racists and Nazis in German media…

    It’s all rather unreal…

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @NoseytheDuke
  406. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FB

    It’s as if the people in Germany are sort of stigmatized if they speak out

    Wow, you really are out of touch with what’s going on in Europe.

    In Europe, if you’re not for the destruction of your own nation by a combination of suppressed reproduction and mass replacement immigration, then you’re a far right wing extremist Nazi racist, as Britain’s Guardian newspaper makes clear.

  407. @NoseytheDuke

    “I’m not aware of it but there may even be a book called Basic Physics for Dummies.”

    Anyone who believes the “jet fuel melted the structural steel ” nonsense would probably need a book called “Very Simple Metallurgy For Anonymous Mongoloids”.

    Of course, then there’s the probability that he’d say the book was conspiracy theory propaganda.

  408. @Johnny Rico

    You have no clue as to my age, my alcohol consumption nor as to the mental health of FB, who has had several commenters expressing appreciation for his comments. So in other words, yet another of your clueless comments. At least you’re consistent. I imagine you get your approval from your right hand, and quite often.

    As to the fuel going down the elevator shafts despite the video of the large fireball of burning fuel OUTSIDE the building, how do you explain the instant melting of the structural steel all the way around the perimeter of the building? Sympathy for the inner core? Clueless again!

    No doubt there might be people with less brain wattage than yourself but I can’t think of anyone more willing to flaunt the fact with such zeal.

    Rico in name, pobre in nonce.

    • Replies: @Johnny Rico
    , @FB
  409. TT says:
    @Johnny Rico

    This report is a little(absolutely) hard to believe since Assad and the Russians only target (Fukus)terrorists and have never done anything wrong(stupidly for the Fukus to blame). Russia is a (more) peace-loving nation, after all, always trying to stop the bloodshed(by Fukus everywhere).

    Little John finally tell a Little truth….but need a little more clarification in bold.

    • LOL: FB
  410. @FB

    Real it is. I grew up in a lovely part of England, but to see it now it is hard to understand how or why. Many of these places are no go areas for white people too, especially at night.

    I currently live in Australia and it is happening here too and to even mention it is to be accused of being a hater, a racist, a neo-nazi or worse.

  411. TT says:
    @RobinG

    FUKUS told Russia-China: look, if you veto our Libya No FLY Zone request to save our cockroaches, we gonna unilaterally attacked like Iraq war.

    Read above. Russia & China juz hope that compliance will avoid all out invasion… a little hope from hopeless situation.

    To veto is sure disaster. To abstain, the vultures may juz do some mischief, get their meat(oil gas) and leave some bones(R&C infrastructures investment). But Fukus are hyenas, they chew up even the bones and destroyed everything.

    R&C learned, Only one language Fukus understand.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  412. FB says:
    @Johnny Rico

    ‘…It is theorized that the jet fuel went down the elevator shafts and ignited…’

    Theorized by who…Donald Duck…?

    An aluminum airplane hitting a steel building at 500 mph would vaporize a large part of the airplane instantly…not to mention the fuel…much of which was not only instantly atomized…but also instantly combusted in that huge fireball…

    I had a discussion at the time of the release of the NIST report with a friend who is a physicist [retired] at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory [the place where they design nuclear weapons...]

    So his grasp of thermodynamics [the science of energy] was impeccable…and he actually did up a very rigorous heat-balance analysis to explain how those steel beams could have reached a temperature where they become what is technically called a plastic state…ie it loses most of its strength…as our forge-genius has posited here…

    The analysis was indeed sound…as I expected from my friend and colleague…the only problem was…he didn’t know anything about airplanes and had no idea how much fuel a 767 actually carries…

    When I pointed that out to him…Oops…he then rejigged his analysis to take into account the heating value in the office furniture…which made the whole analysis fall apart…

    And even our forge-genius friend has remarked that getting charcoal very hot requires compressed air…even old blacksmiths couldn’t have done diddly without the bellows providing a compressed air source to get those coals red hot…[you can't have combustion without lots of air]…

    He had already taken into account the aluminum in the airframe which has a very high combustion temperature…but even accounting for the known mass of the airframe there would not be nearly enough heat energy to get that large a mass of steel beams to the required temperature…

    The heat balance analysis fell apart…missing the required amount of heat energy by an order of magnitude…[look the word up...]

    All of the consideration in the heat balance analysis was of the vaporized fuel setting in flame all the other combustibles…on the floors where the impact occurred…since it would have been impossible to have any fuel in liquid state after the crash whatsoever…

    But don’t take my word for it…check with Donald and Mickey first…

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
    , @Johnny Rico
  413. TT says:
    @yurivku

    Yuri, i always respect your choice and thinking. Only Russian should decide for Russia.

    What i wanted is to share outsiders view in midst of all chaos created by West.

    explain me, Russian, what MY Pres will do. Please concentrate on yours Pres and Co, do not meddle in our elections and selections.

    Putin is certainly not a teddy bear, look what he decided in Chechnya war, and Moscow opera house terrorists case. Syria war is complex & dangerous, but he executes it skillfully at min cost so far. 2yrs without boots and under Fukus sabotaged, the ISIS war is won.

    Aleppo siege had Fukus gone hysteria bcos a dozen of US Allied special advisors were caught inside. The 30pax (likely embeded with US Special Op) that shot down SU25 with Manpad, got wiped out. No one admits personnel losses bcos it means direct war.

    It will be a suicide for any Russia pres not to hit very hard if someone touch Russia land, even a tactical nuke war.

    It’s a time to hard reaction until too late.

    What about Putin – it’s easy to be clever when surrounded by imbeciles. Of cource he’s the best without any alternatives.

    LoL…Yuri you called that world most dignified Russia elite team imbeciles, then how am i gonna called the whole moronic West leaders & Generals now? You got one of world best FM, UN ambassador(KIA), Financial talented team, great generals,…didn’t know Russian imbeciles are so smart, if replaced with normal ones, all Russians will be drinking vodka in Mars now.

    Its worst time to chg Pres(hence entire Putin team) when Russia is facing existential threat from Fukus. You need a strong man, like Stalin, in crisis. After US empire collapse, ok let’s have some fun experiment.

    Putin & Co. will not take defeat lying down, it will kick all opponents. When two tigers fight to death, the Fukus vultures & hyenas got the final dinner. Anyhow, Putin will win with 70% i guess.

    Let us do it ourselves. And once again – Putin is (actually was) ok in international affairs, but he’s not at home.

    Sure, Russia is for Russians i repeat. My ex-Soviet & Russian friends remarked Putin is KGB aristocrat trained to survive the toughest, and he is not corrupted, but supra corrupted…hhhhhh.

    Every politicians is corrupted. See the outcome, take the money but give me a prosperous safe country. I can assured you with direct knowledge, in top5 corruption free countries, every leaders & top civil servants have min hundreds of millions in banks legally hidden. Would you pay peanut for worst crooks to run your countries against another countries best crooks? Only best crook can win another crook.

    And i would not think twice to swap my Pres with your pres Putin. Pick your choice, Trumps/May/Merkel/Macron/Turnbull,…any leaders in the world? 5 for 1, deal done.

  414. @FB

    The one that wants 4 wives and 20 Kids? Germans are really out of their freaking mind. They are either making sausages from donkeys or kissing donkeys ass. Cannot they just ride donkeys?

  415. TT says:
    @utu

    Partly because they have no heart to go along with China for historical and psychological reasons.

    They both knew history well… million of sqkm Siberia land & Mongolia independent …. . Wannabe Jiang settled all border issues to cut historical burden. pragmatic chicom. Only India is a b*tch nothing can satisfied, but a sledge hammer.

    They are leveraging for a better offer from the Empire and the Chinese option is their last resort.

    IMHO, yes… dizzy by exclusive G8, Intl Space Station, promised FDI….sweet dream future like first puppy love after SU divorced, singing we are one USNato white European Rich family…until…

    ..realized she was taken only as a foolish whore in endless rapes, so turn to honest rich Chinaman for marriage to save her sore ass now.

    Reality is always cruel. The yonder shore man you blindly love treat you like a bitch, the next door man you despise is your true bedfellows… Hhhhhhh

    • Replies: @FB
  416. yurivku says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    The step with pdf is unnecessary, there are many programs which can make screen shots, edit and save as jpg. E.g. SNAGIT, being on phone I can’t give you a link, but it’s easy to find.

    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov
  417. TT says:
    @yurivku

    My Art of War: On eve of existential WAR, do not change war proven commander in chief regardless how you dislike him. Win the war, and you can deal with him as you like…better than let enemy deal with you as they like. Learn from past China Emperor wisdom.

    Putin & co. either win by all means, or be destroyed by next Pres. KGB man knew the game, and he will shoot first if a fight is unavoidable.

    Endure… patient… after 20yrs of Putin good fck, what’s more to lose if to bear another 4yrs to bring down tyrant Uncle Scam that will rape all of us hysteria forever if PolarBear-Panda team lost the imminent cage fight.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  418. yurivku says:
    @TT

    How monotonous you are. Always the same Chinese wisdom and same advices. Can you understand that it’s our life and we are fed up with many things connected to Putin’s way of ruling. He was appointed by Yeltsin and there are some consequences of that. It would be much better if you’ll begin to improve your leadership and leave ours to us.

    • Replies: @TT
    , @Anon
  419. @utu

    But my question is about the format in comments here to embed the link?

    Just direct copy and paste into the post.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  420. @yurivku

    I am sure there are, but I am extremely conservative in terms of using what I have but I surely will take a look at SNAGIT.

  421. Sparkon says:
    @Johnny Rico

    The 767s that looked like they crashed into the WTC on 9/11 were modern — some might say magical — jet liners, so they were probably powered that day by smart fuel, which is kerosene with a twist that knows how to avoid burning when an airplane crashes, and instead can pour for awhile, and then ignite later, simultaneously where needed, as if by some irresistible impulse, electrical, mechanical, or fantastical.

    That unprecedented combustion versatility allowed the very smart jet fuel to pour all the way to the very bottom of the elevator shafts before igniting, because that is where the central core needed to be severed near the foundation in order to drop the structure into its own footprint, which feat required also the simultaneous cutting, severing, or melting — if you insist — of all the 244-some exterior box columns surrounding the building and framing those very narrow windows our man Trump was describing so accurately, folks, on 9/11 itself, so this fuel was very smart fuel indeed, and powerful too, to pour where needed, spread where needed, and burn with such intense, focused heat in all the right places that those towers just turned to hot jelly dust, and came crashing down, right on target, all neatly chopped, sectioned, and ready to be hauled off by Rudy’s crews, and put on a slow fast boat to China.

    Did I mention that these special 767s were equipped with cutting edge ginsu steak knife-quality leading edges on the wings? That devious modification enabled the ordinarily rather flimsy aluminum wings to slice through the exterior box columns like they were paper, the 1/4″ steel plate of the box columns clearly no match for the razor-sharp, virtually indestructible sword wings of the magic airplanes.

    • LOL: FB, bluedog
  422. @FB

    One of the first things that bothered me about 9/11 was the fact that South Tower “collapsed” only 56 minutes after it was hit. I remember doing some rough calculations at the time to get an idea of how much air would’ve been required to burn enough fuel to raise the temperature of one floor’s worth of thermal mass of steel and concrete from ambient temp. to 700 degrees C in only 56 minutes (assuming unlimited fuel availability, and assuming no heat losses by conduction, convection or radiation), and the number was huge.

    Then when I tried to account for some conservatively estimated heat losses, the number became ridiculous. The building would’ve had to be something akin to a blast furnace to produce that much heat in only 56 minutes time.

    Of course the “debunkers” came back with an argument that in essence claimed that the heat energy only went where it needed to go to efficiently bring down the building.

    • Replies: @FB
  423. @FB

    An aluminum airplane hitting a steel building at 500 mph would vaporize a large part of the airplane instantly…not to mention the fuel…much of which was not only instantly atomized…but also instantly combusted in that huge fireball…

    Really?

    I think you play fast and loose with terms like vaporize, instantly, and atomized.

    It wasn’t a “steel building.” It was a building that was composed of several materials, steel being one of them.

    You’ve conducted tests? I don’t think so. You are theorizing. You see what you believe. Not the other way around.

    I don’t know what happened. What I stated was theorized, I got from a five minute search of articles debunking your fabricated analysis.

    I don’t need to prove anything.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  424. TT says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    I remember reading a Globalresearch article long time ago, there were some highly suspicious pts:

    1. Few days before 911, Dick Cheney declared there was 5Trillions missing in Pentagon. Then the “plane” aimed precisely at Pentagon wing coincidentally where all these accountants & audit personnel responsible for tracking that 5T, everything were destroyed beyond tracing. Case closed.

    2. A small missile blasted hole in Pentagon too small for even the plane body to enter, with every plane debris atomized. Same jet fuel failed to melt down smaller bldg. All the tall lamp posts around Pentagon remained undamaged, means the Big Plane had to zoom in skillfully between lamp posts at below 30ft without wings to hit Pentagon.

    3. Not a single CTV cameras in Pentagon & surrounding buildings capture the plane hitting Pentagon, a highest security bldg under 24hrs surveillance that a drone fly by may cause a F16 interception.

    4. One of WTC lower building didn’t hit by plane, but also collapsed shortly later, exactly like the other two carefully demolished tall buildings. 911 report explanation was the two burning buildings had spread fire to it…but no jet fuel. If small plastic & furniture fire can collapse such strong building within few hours in its own footprint, we should see every steel beam structured buildings collapsed under fire similarly. Then why need expensive explosive demolition, just set up fire with some plastic bottles.

    • Replies: @Sparkon
  425. @NoseytheDuke

    I’m not sure what you are so angry over or what you are sputtering on about. I hope you can resolve some of those issues before you drink yourself to death.

  426. @Johnny Rico

    “I don’t need to prove anything.”

    You’ve already proved beyond a doubt that you are an idiot’s idiot. Nicely done too!

    You are mistaken (again) There is no anger in my comments to you, it is merely pity.

  427. TT says:
    @yurivku

    LoL. Pls pardon my monotonous, I only manage to learn some English & abit Chinese to read so rather limited knowledge to quote. But these ancient Chinese wisdoms are still very applicable isn’t it, even all US officers are compulsory to study SunTze Arts Of War. China is shaping the future world, I got to learn more to survive better.

    Next time i will try read some Russian, German or even Indian books to quote you… Hhhhhhh.

    My leaders are beyond hope, so i stop voting more than 20yrs ago. Wish you have a Good Pres to save Russia & the world.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  428. yurivku says:
    @TT

    Thank you, but I heard this wisdom from different people many times. So monotonous it’s not to you personally, but for all these people. It’s easy to use to explain everything. Let’s say that if fight is inevitable we have to strike first.

    And I see it’s inevitable. Time to strike. I’M sure of that so no need to try force change my pov.
    What abou our pres I’ve already said everything, have nothing to add

  429. RobinG says:
    @TT

    “To veto is sure disaster.”

    Yet again, nothing to support this, not even an argument.

    • Replies: @skrik
    , @TT
  430. Sparkon says:
    @TT

    1. Few days before 911, Dick Cheney declared there was 5Trillions missing in Pentagon.

    No, the so-called missing trillions were discussed by Sec. of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on 9/10/2001.

    ‘According to some estimates, we cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.’

    Presumably then, some other estimates would have shown that at least some of the money was tracked, so it is somewhat peculiar that Rumsfeld cited the estimates of tracking failure, rather than those other estimates apparently describing some tracking success, or a smaller amount of unaccounted or untracked funds, but it’s probably all just weasel words from Rummy anyway.

    And of course, the solution for missing money is more money.

    Also on 9/10/2001, news articles reported on a 68-page paper from the Army School of Advanced Military Studies (SAMS):

    Of the Mossad, the Israeli intelligence service, the SAMS officers say: “Wildcard. Ruthless and cunning. Has capability to target U.S. forces and make it look like a Palestinian/Arab act.”

    https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2001/sep/10/20010910-025319-6906r/

    • Replies: @TT
  431. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @yurivku

    Would you mind to share what really frustrated Russians under Putin ruling, when we see so much miraculous improvements over last 2 decades in every segments? I am curious.

    RT just show everything is fantastic about Russia, while Western msm is telling Russia is a shit, run for your life. Both seem extreme.

    • Replies: @yurivku
  432. RobinG says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Testing……………… (you mean copy/paste the link, yes?)

    • Replies: @Robjil
  433. yurivku says:
    @Anon

    Exactly, the truth is in between. But I already described everything. Try to check my postings here to TT, there is alink to this description. We do support Putin, but not in full scale

  434. Robjil says:
    @RobinG

    In “Solving 911″ by Chris Bollyn, he mentions the Mossad controlled traders and owners of New Jersey junkyards, who processed 250000 tons of 911 evidence, cut it up and sent it to Asian steel mills. This was evidence of the worst crime in US history, yet no real study of the evidence was ever done. All the evidence was destroyed instead on a massive scale. This is the smoking gun that proves beyond doubt that it was a Mossad/CIA deal. The CIA would not allow the Mossad to do this if the CIA did not approve of it. MI6 knew about it too. BBC said tower 7 fell down before it did.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  435. RobinG says:
    @Robjil

    Very suspicious, but check your definition of smoking gun.

    • Replies: @Robjil
  436. This makes a certain amount of sense, too.

    http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/jom/0112/eagar/eagar-0112.html

    Fire away.

    • Replies: @FB
    , @skrik
  437. FB says:
    @Harold Smith

    ‘…I remember doing some rough calculations at the time to get an idea of how much air would’ve been required to burn enough fuel to raise the temperature of one floor’s worth of thermal mass of steel and concrete from ambient temp. to 700 degrees C in only 56 minutes (assuming unlimited fuel availability, and assuming no heat losses by conduction, convection or radiation), and the number was huge…’

    Yes…that’s it exactly…

    It’s clear from your above that you know something about heat transfer…the key science here…[heat transfer being a specific discipline within the larger field of thermodynamics...]

    The key to the whole thing is the heat transfer required on the known mass of steel within those 244 uprights…

    [Thanks to Sparkon for providing the exact number and type of 'box columns' at his #429...]

    A simple example here for the non-technical folks…

    Let’s say you have a steel beam on your workbench of a given mass…and you also have an oxy-acetylene torch with a fuel supply of a given quantity…

    The amount of heat energy required to raise the temperature of that piece of steel to a specific value is a known function of the steel properties…it requires a certain amount of chemical fuel energy in those tanks to accomplish…

    If there is not enough fuel in your tanks for the task at hand…it will not be possible to accomplish the task…it’s basically that simple…

    What this tells us is that the heat balance analysis is the key approach to testing the NIST story…which posits that the heating energy available was indeed enough to sufficiently weaken the beams on those floors affected by the crash and where the fire was present…

    The collapse of those beams as they reached their plastic state then caused the buckling which allowed the floors above to collapse onto the impact site floors…

    So up to that point it is clearly a heat transfer problem…solvable by known methods which are used in the vast applications of heat transfer science in the modern world…

    Assuming that did indeed happen…from there it becomes a structural strength problem…technically a mechanics of materials problem…which is the domain of structural engineers…

    That is because the NIST posits that the momentum of the collapsing upper floors was sufficient to continue the subsequent pancaking of the floors below…right until the ground level…

    So we have clearly a two-step analysis process that we can apply to this problem…the first involving heat transfer…and the second involving structural mechanics…

    So the logical place to start is to verify the heat transfer numbers…this is where my physicist friend logically started…believe me when I say that if this guy threw in the towel on an energy problem then nobody is going to come up with a way [short of science fiction] that will support the heat balance numbers required…

    Your point about the 56 minutes is very important…because heat transfer does take time…we all know this by noticing that a pot of water does not begin to boil instantly…

    Also your point about the inevitable losses in any heat transfer process…no heat transfer process is 100 percent efficient…it is a physical impossibility due to the laws of thermodynamics and entropy [irreversible losses]…

    In fact heating by open flame has very low heat transfer coefficient…much of the heat is wasted without ever being transferred to the steel…

    Let’s zoom in here a little for a little more granularity…a torch on a steel beam will transfer heat from the hot gas to the steel by means of convection…which heats the surface of the steel…

    From there…the heat transfer propagates inward through the steel by means of thermal conduction…

    But that open flame will lose a large part of its energy by way of thermal radiation…the open flame is a very inefficient method of heat transfer…

    In fact…only a small percentage of the heat energy in that flame will actually be transferred to the steel…the rest wasted on radiation and heating of the surrounding air…

    A simple example of this is a fireplace…which is an open flame…something like 90 percent of the heat energy goes out the chimney as waste heat…

    A wood stove on the other hand is much more efficient…the heat is contained within the body of the stove…which heats up and then transfers that heat to the room by means of radiation…ie the hot steel of the stove radiates the energy throughout the room…

    This heat energy approach to the problem was what caused me to begin thinking also…it was my friend who approached me to review his thermo analysis to begin with…so that was the eye opener for me too…when you actually start seeing the numbers come up you get that ‘aha’ moment…

    Btw…this is one of the aspects that is somewhat underplayed in the critical literature as far as I can see…most of the criticism has to do with the structural analysis that followed…ie the collapse of the upper floors allegedly causing the rest of the structure to collapse in turn…

    This is certainly just as problematic for the official narrative…but for me the thermo aspects are the ‘elephant in the room’…this is where it all starts…

    Thanks for a very good comment…

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  438. FB says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    ‘…I imagine you get your approval from your right hand, and quite often…’

    [Burrito Toss...]

    Yes our ‘poor’ johnny on the spot is quite the specimen, no…?

    The idiot surely is one of the rare gifts of life…since where we would be without amusement…?

    Now… the ‘idiot’s idiot’…well that gift only comes along once in a very long while…let us be glad and enjoy…

  439. TT says:
    @Sparkon

    Sorry, memory is deteriorating with age & not using often. Also lazy to check.

  440. skrik says:
    @RobinG

    Yet again, nothing to support this,

    I can’t know, just how you think a veto here or there could possibly affect the outlaws’ outrages.

    But here is something ‘just in:’

    “Sergey Lavrov: Russia to vote for Syria truce at UN”

    Now, as we know, for at least the last week or so, the US/Z corrupt&venal MSM has been harping on Syria, supported by Russia, attacking the ‘enclave’ known as Eastern Ghouta. We see, on all the *taxpayer supported* broadcasters that I monitor, video of alleged atrocities, invariably blaming Assad & Co, often featuring ‘white helmets.’

    It all tells me, that the US/Z-sponsored jihadis in Eastern Ghouta are running out of ammunition, since they’ve shot it all into [overwhelmingly civilian!] Damascus, and need ‘reinforcements,’ certainly to be more easily done during a ‘truce.’ Now that Russia has apparently caved in to US/Z demands in this instance, we will just have to wait and see the outcome. All I can say is ‘good luck with that.’ rgds

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @FB
  441. Robjil says:
    @RobinG

    smoking gun
    noun
    Definition of smoking gun for English Language Learners

    : a piece of evidence that clearly proves who did something or shows how something happened

    Smoking gun works in this case.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  442. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @FB

    This tech stuff is all very interesting and all very well, but it won’t convince any but that tiny fraction of the population with the patience and ability to follow such arguments.

    More widely persuasive are the political facts.

    The desirability of a “new Pearl Harbor” as implied in the report of the Project for the New American Century.

    The ridiculous lies* by Shrub and Rice about no one expecting anyone to fly airplanes into buildings.

    The destruction or confiscation of all video evidence of the strike on the Pentagon.

    The refusal of the President to testify before the 9/11 Commission in public or under oath.

    The rejection by the Chair and legal counsel of the 9/11 Commission of their own report, which they stated by no means told the whole story and what story it told would need to be amended in the light of future research.

    NIST’s denial that Building 7 fell with an acceleration equal to that of gravity for several seconds, a lie they were forced to retract by a high school physics teacher.

    The absence of any disciplinary action against anyone for the failure of NORAD to intercept the high-jacked aircraft.

    Dick Cheney’s order not to intercept the plane heading for the Pentagon.

    And a few dozen other things.

    The immediate post-9/11 roll out of Shrub’s Nazi Enabling Act, aka the Patriot Act.

    And then there’s the date. Just a coincidence. LOL.

    _______

    * See: 9/11 report, Rice remarks in conflict

    • Replies: @FB
    , @NoseytheDuke
  443. RobinG says:
    @skrik

    Hmmm. Do you remember…. when they did the jihadi transfer out of East Aleppo, I don’t think UN was involved at all. Now it’s taken to a UN vote? Before, they sent the militants to Idlib. (Some chose to disarm, be reclaimed into Syria.) But now, where to put them, what to negotiate?

    As to the veto, it was covered in the tread. Someone else put it well….. deny France/US/NATO a figleaf of legality. It changes the historical record.

    • Replies: @skrik
  444. RobinG says:
    @Robjil

    You’re a top candidate to fail the LSAT.

    IF….. there had been an investigation that found chemical markers that were conclusively tied to Israel….

    …that would be a smoking gun.
    But there wasn’t, and there isn’t.

    (Hint….. this all stems from the basement dwellers’ [lack of] understanding of the word proof.)

    • Replies: @Robjil
    , @NoseytheDuke
  445. FB says:
    @skrik

    ‘…But here is something ‘just in:’