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The Myth of Hispanic Crime
Talk TV sensationalists and axe-grinding ideologues have fallen for a myth of immigrant lawlessness.
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TAC-HispanicCrime1ViewAsPDF2 According to Lou Dobbs, “a third of the prison population in this country is estimated to be illegal aliens,” and Glenn Beck regularly warns of “an illegal alien crime wave.” Congressman Tom Tancredo insists, “The face of illegal immigration on our borders is one of murder, one of drug smuggling, one of vandalism for all the communities along the border, and one of infiltration of people coming into this country for purposes to do us great harm.” Michelle Malkin adds an even more terrifying note, calling our borders “open channels not only for illegal aliens and drug smugglers, but terrorists, too.” Even as far back as 2000, the highly regarded General Social Survey found that 73 percent of Americans believed that immigration caused higher crime rates, a level of concern considerably greater than fears about job losses or social unity.

As Latino gangs have gained notoriety in the United States—particularly MS-13, dubbed the “The World’s Most Dangerous Gang” by usually restrained National Geographic—images of violent foreigners have come to dominate much of the national debate on immigration policy. A perception has taken root in the minds of the American public and many elected leaders that the greatest threat posed by mass immigration is crime.

In recent decades, most immigrants have been Hispanic; Asians, who constitute the other large portion of the inflow, are generally regarded as economically successful and law-abiding. Although many Hispanics are American-born, the vast majority still comes from a relatively recent immigrant background. So to a considerable extent, popular concerns about immigrant crime and popular concerns about Hispanic crime amount to the same thing. While fears of perceived racial insensitivity may force many critics to choose their words carefully, widespread belief that Hispanics have high or perhaps very high crime rates seems to exist.

But is this correct? Or are these concerns rooted in the same excitable and ideological mindset that produced endless stories of Saddam’s notorious WMD, with activists and their media accomplices passing along rumors and personal beliefs in pursuit of a political agenda rather than bothering to determine the facts? Does America face a Hispanic crime problem or merely a Hispanic crime hoax?

Personal experiences are no substitute for detailed investigation, but they sometimes provide a useful reality check. Since the early 1990s, I’ve lived in Silicon Valley, a region in which people of white European ancestry are a relatively small minority, separately outnumbered by both Asians and Hispanics, with many of the latter quite poor and often here illegally. On any given day, more than half of the people I encounter in Palo Alto are Hispanics from immigrant backgrounds. Yet my area of the country has exceptionally low crime rates and virtually no serious ethnic conflict. This confounds the expectations of many of my East Coast friends.

Prior to moving back to my native California, I lived for five years in Jackson Heights, Queens, one of the most heavily immigrant and ethnically diverse parts of New York City. There as well, white Europeans were a small minority and immigrants from various Latin American countries were the largest ethnic group, close to an absolute majority of the local population. On a typical afternoon or evening, probably 80 percent of the people walking the streets of my neighborhood were non-white, and on dozens of occasions I returned home from Manhattan on a late-night train, the only white face in the subway car. Yet in all my years of living there, I never encountered a hostile or menacing situation, let alone suffered an actual criminal attack. Hardly what one would expect from television images, let alone the wild claims made by conservative magazines or talk radio. The “thousands of brutal assailants and terrorists” City Journal’s Heather Mac Donald finds among our immigrant population must have moved into someone else’s neighborhood.

So were my personal experiences atypical? Or are the media and conservative movement portrayals so completely wrong? Hispanics will constitute a quarter of the American population within a generation or two according to current demographic projections, so this is an important issue for the future of our country.

The obvious way to answer the question is to consult the public FBI Uniform Crime Report database, which provides aggregated information on the race of all criminal suspects throughout America. Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. Therefore, indirect means must be used to estimate the crime rate of Hispanics compared to whites. (Throughout this essay, “white” shall refer to non-Hispanic whites.)

One metric to examine might be relative incarceration rates, since most people who begin a life of criminal activity end up behind bars sooner or later—usually sooner. Furthermore, since so much of prison violence is along racial lines, correctional authorities are careful to record the ethnicity of individual inmates, and the aggregate data is made available annually by the Bureau of Justice Statistics. Indeed, over the years, prison-reform groups such as The Sentencing Project, as well as various federal judges, have used this official data to criticize the prison system for its massive overrepresentation of racial minorities among inmates relative to their share of the population.[1]“Uneven Justice: State Rates of Incarceration by Race and Ethnicity,” Marc Mauer and Ryan S. King, July 2007, The Sentencing Project.

If we examine the data in the most recent 2008 BJS report, published in December 2009, we discover the total Hispanic incarceration rate, while far below that of blacks, is still almost 150 percent above the white average, having fallen a little from the 170 percent figure in 2000.[2]“Prisoners in 2008,” William J. Sabol, Heather C. West, and Matthew Cooper, December 2009, Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin. So perhaps those fearful commentators are right and Hispanics commit crimes at roughly two-and-a-half times the rate of whites in America.

The traditional liberal explanation for this would be that Hispanics are considerably poorer than whites, that poverty and racism cause crime, and that a white-dominated criminal justice system is likely to be biased against suspects of a darker hue. There may or may not be some truth in these common liberal arguments, but since the name of this magazine is The American Conservative, let us put them aside at least for now and consider other possible factors.

ORDER IT NOW

The most obvious of these are age and gender. An overwhelming fraction of serious crime is committed by the young, young males in particular. This has been the case throughout recorded history and remains true everywhere in today’s world. Almost all American crimes are committed by individuals aged 15-44, with the age range 18-29 representing the sharp peak of criminal activity. Also, the 14-to-1 ratio of males to females in the U.S. prison system provides a sense of just how heavily crime is a male phenomenon; for violent offenses, the ratio is even higher.

And as it happens, the age distribution in America for Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites is quite different. The median age for Hispanics is around 27, near the absolute peak of the prime-crime age range. But the median white age is over 40, putting nearly half the white population above the likely age range for committing crimes. While it is certainly true that Hispanic 23-year-olds have much greater criminal tendencies than white 45-year-olds, a more useful question is the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites of the same age. Also, many Hispanics are immigrants, and since immigrants are more likely to be male, there will be a gender skew in the general Hispanic population. Therefore, let us consider the Hispanic imprisonment rate relative to the number of males in the high-crime age range.

Suddenly the numbers change quite a bit, with the relative Hispanic-to-white total incarceration rate dropping by a third or more for several of the age cohorts. But even these lower figures may still be a bit misleading. As a recent front page New York Times story pointed out, over half of all federal prosecutions these days are for immigration-related offenses, and since a huge fraction of illegal immigrants are from south of the border, the 10 percent or so of U.S. prison inmates who are in federal custody might significantly distort our ethnic imprisonment statistics.[3]“Immigration Enforcement Fuels Rise in U.S. Cases,” John Schwartz, December 21, 2009, New York Times. Anyway, offenses such as robbery, rape, murder, burglary, assault, and theft are almost always prosecuted in state courts, so it makes sense to separate these street crimes from cases of illegal nannies convicted of illegal nannying.

Another important reason to focus on state-level imprisonment data is the evidence of vast differences among regional criminal-justice systems due to various cultural and political factors. For example, whites in Oklahoma are incarcerated at a rate almost 300 percent higher than whites in New Jersey, and while some of this disparity may result from the greater criminal tendencies of white Oklahomans, it seems likely that the harshness of the local courts and sentencing guidelines may also play an important role. We should therefore try to compare Hispanic incarceration rates with those for whites on a state-by-state basis so as to minimize the impact of differences in local criminal-justice systems.

The most recent BJS publications do not provide state-by-state incarceration data broken down by ethnicity, but the 2005 BJS Bulletin did exactly that, and while relative Hispanic incarceration rates have fallen somewhat in the past five years, the drop has not been large. Therefore, we should be able to use the 2005 figures with confidence.[4]“Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2005,” Paige M. Harrison and Allen J. Beck, May 2006, Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin.

Our first discovery is that even before adjusting for age, the overall Hispanic incarceration rate drops from 150 percent above the white rate down to just 80 percent above, presumably reflecting the exclusion of immigration-related federal offenses. We can now use census data to estimate the number of prime-crime-age young males in the two groups, and since there is some uncertainty in deciding which age range is most appropriate for normalization purposes, we should probably explore the results with several different choices, such as 18-29, 15-34, and 15-44.[5]American Ethnicity calculations are derived from the data provided by the Census Bureau, based on the 2000 Census for that year or the interim American Community Surveys for 2005-2008, available at http://factfinder.census.gov. (Many observers believe that the number of Hispanic illegal immigrants in America is sharply underestimated by the government; if so, this would correspondingly reduce the relative Hispanic imprisonment rate.)

The overall age-adjusted national imprisonment rates are shown in Chart 1. Hispanic incarceration rates are now between 13 and 31 percent above the white average, depending upon which age range we choose for normalization purposes. By contrast, the claims of extremely high relative black incarceration rates widely publicized several years ago by The Sentencing Project remain correct even after these age adjustments.

HispanicCrime-chart1

Next, if we examine the relative age-adjusted Hispanic imprisonment rate for individual states, we find huge variations. In a number of states, the Hispanic rate is below the white rate, sometimes far below. For example, whites in West Virginia, Arkansas, and Louisiana are imprisoned at three to four times the Hispanic rate relative to their share of the crime-age population. To some degree, this reflects the time-lag impact of the recent arrival of large numbers of Hispanics in these locations, since most of the white convicts entered prison years ago, but such low relative rates of Hispanic incarceration are still intriguing. And even in Florida, where Hispanics have been a large fraction of the total population for decades, the white age-adjusted imprisonment rate is still twice as high as the Hispanic rate.

Furthermore, contrary to official bureaucratic categories, Hispanics are hardly a monolithic ethnic group and actually exhibit large variations in their cultural traditions based on country of origin. The very low Hispanic imprisonment rate in Florida may reflect the considerable economic and social success of the Cuban community centered there. Another set of obvious outliers are the states of the Northeast, primarily the New York/New England region, in which relative Hispanic imprisonment rates generally run two to three times higher than the national Hispanic average, as shown in Chart 2. These exceptionally high Hispanic incarceration rates probably reflect the considerable social and economic difficulties long experienced by the large Puerto Rican and Dominican communities that have settled in that region.

HispanicCrime-chart2

The high incarceration rate for these Caribbean Hispanics may partially explain general perceptions of Hispanic crime rates. A large proportion of America’s intellectual, media, and political elite lives in the Northeast, in cities like New York and Boston, and if the Hispanics traditionally living in those areas have unusually high rates of criminal activity, there would be a natural if mistaken tendency to assume that this same pattern also applied to Hispanic groups throughout the country.

But outside the Northeast, the vast majority of Hispanics are Meso-American, being either from Mexico or Central America. Chart 3 summarizes the very different relative imprisonment rates for these groups by focusing on the most heavily Hispanic states outside the Northeast.

HispanicCrime-chart3

Moreover, if we consider weighted-average age-adjusted Hispanic imprisonment ratios excluding those outlying cases of the Northeastern states, we discover that the remaining figure moves into close parity with white incarceration rates. (See Chart 4.) Since Hispanics are still considerably poorer than whites, this is a striking result. Also, crime rates are always higher in densely populated urban areas than in suburbs or rural communities, and since Hispanics are three times as likely as whites to live in cities, their relatively low imprisonment rates become even more surprising.

HispanicCrime-chart4

Another important point to emphasize is the wide disparity in white incarceration rates throughout the country, even when adjusted relative to the number of whites in high-crime age ranges. For example, age-adjusted imprisonment rates for whites in large Southern states such as Florida, Texas, and Georgia may be 200 percent or even 300 percent higher than those for whites in large Northeastern or Midwestern states such as New York, New Jersey, or Illinois, as shown in Chart 5. Although it is impossible to disentangle completely how much of this gap may be due to higher criminality and how much due to harsher judicial systems, it seems likely that both play important roles. So even if the age-adjusted Hispanic incarceration rate is somewhat above the white rate—perhaps 15 percent higher on average—it still falls close to the center of the overall white distribution.

HispanicCrime-chart5

The substantial regional or cultural differences in apparent white criminality are easily illustrated when we consider the age-adjusted Hispanic/white incarceration ratios in the two most heavily Hispanic states, California and Texas, which together contain roughly half of all Hispanics living in the United States. If we normalize the incarceration rate to the number of males aged 15-34, California Hispanics are imprisoned at 9 percent above the local white rate, while Texas Hispanics are imprisoned at 14 percent below the local white rate. Since California is one of America’s most liberal “pro-minority” states and Texas one of the most staunchly “law-and-order” conservative ones, and the Hispanics in both states are overwhelmingly Mexican, these somewhat unexpected imprisonment ratios probably reflect the relative criminality of the local white populations more than anything else.

Another important question is to what degree Hispanic criminal activity is influenced by immigration status. While there is a widespread popular impression that immigrants, especially illegal immigrants, have a propensity for violent crime, actual studies almost invariably come to the opposite conclusion: for almost every ethnic group, Hispanic or otherwise, immigrant generations have lower rates of criminal behavior than their American-born children. This has resulted in concerned speculation that even if Hispanic crime rates today are relatively low, this situation may be temporary, and once the Hispanic population shifts from being mostly immigrant to mostly native-born, crime rates might skyrocket. A 2006 Migration Policy Institute study estimated that imprisonment rates are some eight times higher for American-born citizens of Mexican ancestry than for their immigrant co-ethnics.[6]“Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men,” Ruben G. Rumbaut, Roberto G. Gonzales, Golnaz Komaie, and Charlie V. Morgan, June 1, 2006, Migration Policy Institute. If we can expect Mexican-American crime rates to rise 700 percent in the next generation, we should be very alarmed indeed.

But there are good reasons to doubt the plausibility of that horrific scenario. First, contrary to popular belief, the majority of today’s Hispanics are already American-born, and this is certainly true of those in the highest-crime age groups. For example, two-thirds of today’s Latinos aged 18-24 are American citizens by birth. This figure has risen from less than half 20 years ago, while crime rates have simultaneously plummeted nationwide, with relative Hispanic imprisonment rates also dropping significantly since 2000. If American-born Mexicans and Central Americans had the exceptionally high crime rates suggested in that 2006 study, it is strange that we have seen no evidence of this either in the trends of national crime data or in imprisonment statistics.

The major difficulty with the study’s evidence is that while prisons have an easy time gathering ethnicity data, determining the immigration status of convicts is far more difficult, and is generally based on self-reporting. Not surprisingly, most convicted felons are not eager to reveal their lack of citizenship and then face deportation once their sentences are completed, so the numbers must be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, a November 2009 paper by Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan for the Center for Immigration Studies raised serious doubts about the accuracy of these federal immigrant-imprisonment statistics, both based on the doubtful methodology employed and the huge, anomalous swings that occur on an ongoing basis.[7]“Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue,” Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan, November 2009, Center for Immigration Studies. For example, the official data seems to show a 28 percent decline in the number of incarcerated immigrants between 1990 and 2000, even as the total number of immigrants grew 59 percent, then a sudden 146 percent rise in incarcerated immigrants from 2000 to 2007, a period when immigrant numbers grew only 22 percent. Such changes seem highly implausible and lead to serious doubts that the gap between immigrant Hispanic and American-born Hispanic criminality is anywhere near as great as has been portrayed. Besides, since perhaps two-thirds of today’s highest-crime-age Hispanic population is already American-born, there is a strong upper bound on how much crime rates would rise in the future as that fraction gradually rises to three-quarters or more.

Aside from these imprisonment rates, perhaps we can also gain insight into Hispanic criminality from the crime rates themselves. As mentioned before, the federal statistics on the ethnicity of criminals are unreliable, but by matching the geographical distribution of crime with census data on Hispanic population percentages, we can gain strong circumstantial evidence about the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites.

ORDER IT NOW

The smaller the geographical unit we use, the more accurate our analysis will be. But while ethnicity rates can be found for individual zip codes, crime is reported by precinct, and matching these entirely different organizational units would be a major research undertaking. At the opposite end of the spectrum, doing calculations based on entire states provides little information since the populations and geographies are so large and often diverse, and important relationships would tend to remain hidden. The best compromise between effort and accuracy is to focus on America’s larger cities, for which both crime and ethnicity data are readily available. Furthermore, crime rates are much higher in densely populated urban areas, so by confining our analysis to these, we are eliminating some of the bias that would occur if we compared crime rates in rural areas with those in urban ones. The U.S. has fewer than 80 cities with populations of 250,000 or more, and of these, less than half are major cities with at least half a million inhabitants. Such small data sets are reasonably easy to analyze.

Take five minutes to consider the list of America’s urban crime rates provided on Wikipedia, and you will notice an intriguing pattern.[8]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States _cities_by_crime_rate, January 5, 2010, Wikipedia. Nearly all of the most heavily Latino cities have low or even extremely low crime rates, and virtually none have rates much above the national average. Eighty percent Latino El Paso has the lowest homicide and robbery rates of any major city in the continental United States. This is not what we would expect to find if Hispanics had crime rates far higher than whites. Individual cities may certainly have anomalously low crime rates for a variety of reasons, but the overall trend of crime rates compared to ethnicity seems unmistakable.

But let us explore white and Hispanic crime rates in a more systematic fashion, drawing our data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.[9]Urban crime rates are derived from the data provided by the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, available at http://fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm. Consider the five whitest cities in America: Colorado Springs, Colorado; Fort Wayne, Indiana; Portland, Oregon; Lexington, Kentucky; and Lincoln, Nebraska. These cities’ populations average 76 percent white, 9 percent Hispanic, and 8 percent black. Their crime rates are generally far below the national urban average, with less than half the homicide and robbery rates and a 30 percent lower violent-crime rate. Perhaps we can consider these figures as a reasonable approximation to the general “white urban crime rate.” These crime averages may be partly due to the local black and Hispanic populations, but since these cities are so overwhelmingly white, this estimate for the white crime rates is about as close as we can hope to get.

One difficulty we encounter is that these heavily white cities are extremely small in population, with three of the five barely registering over the 250,000 threshold required even to be included in our urban analysis and the average size being less than half that for most cities in our list. But augmenting this list with larger, less white cities would introduce other inaccuracies, so we have no choice but to use these small-city white-crime figures as a benchmark, although with considerable caution.

Now let us consider the five most Hispanic cities in America: Corpus Christi, Texas; San Antonio, Texas; Miami, Florida; Santa Ana, California; and El Paso, Texas. Together they total over 3 million in population, averaging 68 percent Hispanic, 22 percent white, and 6 percent black. The ethnicities and crime rates of these cities are displayed in Chart 6.

HispanicCrime-chart6

Overall, the crime rates for these most heavily Hispanic cities are generally low, with violent crime 10 percent below the national urban average and the homicide rate 40 percent lower. On the other hand, the crime rates are still well above those of the white cities we considered above. In fact, the white homicide and violent crime rates are almost one-third lower. This provides some evidence for a higher Hispanic crime rate.

But this evidence is not particularly strong. First, the Hispanic cities are much larger than the white ones, with nearly double the average population. Also, Miami is an extreme outlier, with nearly twice as much crime as the other four Hispanic cities, and shifts the average considerably. If we exclude Miami, half the difference between the crime rates of the most Hispanic and the whitest cities disappears.

Even more striking, the average crime rates for the two most Hispanic cities on our list—Santa Ana and El Paso, each 80 percent Hispanic—are actually below our white urban average, and below the very low crime figures for 86 percent white Lincoln, the single whitest city in the nation. So although some heavily Hispanic cities have higher crime rates than some heavily white ones, the pattern seems very mixed.

Furthermore, if we consider the overall list of American cities, it is easy to find a number of those with sizable Hispanic populations—30, 40, 50 percent or more Hispanic—that have crime rates below our white urban average. If Hispanic crime rates were much higher than those for whites, this would seem very unlikely.

Similar evidence emerges if we restrict our analysis to major cities of half a million people or more and compare the average crime rates for the five most heavily Hispanic cities—Albuquerque, Dallas, Los Angeles, San Antonio, and El Paso—to the those of the five whitest—Oklahoma City, Columbus, Indianapolis, Seattle, and Portland. This time, the more Hispanic cities are the ones with the lower crime rates—10 percent below the white cities in homicide and 15 percent lower in violent crime. A particularly remarkable result is that gigantic Los Angeles—50 percent Hispanic and frequently perceived as a dangerous urban hellhole—has violent crime rates close to those of Portland, Oregon, the whitest major city in the nation at 74 percent. The Hispanic cities and their crime rates are displayed in Chart 7.

HispanicCrime-chart7

Here’s a final example, much closer to home. Consider two large and comparable American cities—San Jose, California and Seattle, Washington. Both are located on the West Coast, are overwhelmingly suburban and generally affluent, earn their living from the technology industry, are politically liberal, and have small black populations. Seattle is one of the whitest cities in America at 70 percent, with Asians being the largest minority; Hispanics number only 5 percent. By contrast, San Jose is over 50 percent larger in size and although mostly white and Asian, is one-third Hispanic, with a large number of impoverished illegal immigrants. Seattle’s crime rate is indeed low, but the crime rate in San Jose is actually much lower: one-third lower for homicide or violent crime in general and with less than half the robbery rate. In fact, none of the most heavily white major cities in America have crime rates anywhere near as low as one-third Hispanic San Jose.

These individual city comparisons may be quantitatively extended to urban crime rates in general by calculating the weighted-average correlation coefficient between the Hispanic percentage of a city and its various crime rates and performing the same calculation for the white-plus-Asian percentage as well. (Asians are a very small population in most cities, so it is convenient to combine them with whites; since all studies show Asians tend to have much lower crime rates than whites, this will tend to reduce the apparent white crime rate.) Whereas all the previous urban crime figures quoted were from 2008, the latest year available, we can obtain the separate correlations for the last several years in order to consider trends over time.

As Charts 8-13 indicate, the Hispanic and white-plus-Asian crime correlation rates are usually quite close and in many cases have converged to almost identical values, at least since 2005. Moreover, we must remember that all these ethnic percentage rates refer to the total population rather than the percentage of young males in the high-crime years for each group, and as mentioned earlier, the age distributions for Hispanics and whites are very different. In fact, if we repeat these same correlation calculations for the population of males aged 18-29, the Hispanic and white rates substantially diverge, with young Hispanics usually being associated with significantly lower urban crime rates.

HispanicCrime-chart8

HispanicCrime-chart9

HispanicCrime-chart10

HispanicCrime-chart11

HispanicCrime-chart12

HispanicCrime-chart13

A reasonable question arises: are all of these crime rates actual, or might they be statistical artifacts produced by widespread underreporting of crime in heavily Hispanic areas? We cannot absolutely eliminate this possibility, but for homicides the reporting rate is always close to 100 percent, and since for all these cities the homicide and other serious crime rates tend to follow very similar patterns, there is no evidence that any of these racial patterns were warped by substantial underreporting.

Finally, let us consider the historical crime trends in my native Los Angeles, America’s second-largest city. During the middle of the 20th century, it was by far America’s whitest large city—roughly 80 percent white European by ancestry—and was generally regarded as America’s middle-class suburban paradise. But as the decades went by, LA increasingly became a byword for violence, crime, and ethnic conflict, with the deadly Watts and Rodney King racial riots filling television screens across the country. These enormously negative social changes coincided exactly with the population becoming less white, and although relatively few analysts were willing to suggest a direct causal relationship, I suspect it was noticed by all but the most obtuse observers. As early as 1982, a future LA served as the setting for Ridley Scott’s dystopian film “Blade Runner,” in which violence, poverty, and sudden death for a vast non-white immigrant population exist side by side with the sybaritic luxury of a tiny remaining white elite.

Since then, these ethnic demographic trends have continued apace, and Los Angeles today ranks as America’s least white European large city. Half of the population is Hispanic, and many of these are impoverished illegal immigrants and their families. Yet all crime rates have been falling steadily over the last two decades, with homicide dropping a further 18 percent just last year. As Chart 14 illustrates, most major crime categories are now back down to where they were in the early 1960s, when the population really did look very much like the actors appearing in “Dragnet” and “Leave It to Beaver.” And indeed, violent crime is now roughly the same as for Portland, Oregon, America’s whitest major city.

HispanicCrime-chart14

This Los Angeles example also raises important questions about the official claims that Latino youths have exceptionally high rates of gang membership, 1800 percent higher than for whites. Los Angeles supposedly has among the worst Hispanic gang problems, yet the city’s actual crime rates are roughly the same as what they were back in the lily-white days of the early 1960s. So if these local gangs aren’t committing much crime, what exactly is the definition of a “gang”?

A cynical observer might draw a connection between the hundreds of millions of dollars the federal government distributes each year for gang-prevention programs and the zeal with which local officials uncover the severity of their gang problems. In the case of Los Angeles, public officials have held January press conferences each of the last several years hailing the unprecedented drops in serious crime rates. They often follow these up a few months later with contrary press conferences on the horrific state of local gang violence and the desperate need for increased federal funds to cope with this scourge. If the federal government pays cities to find gang problems, many city officials will surely oblige them.

Admittedly, all of the arguments presented here are somewhat statistical and circumstantial. Correlation does not prove causality, and it might be possible to come up with a complex and detailed set of ad hoc theories and counter-arguments to explain away the vast mass of apparent evidence indicating relatively low Hispanic crime rates. But such an approach places the burden of proof on the wrong side.

The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America’s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the “null hypothesis,” namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.

ORDER IT NOW

We must bear in mind that most Hispanics are still of very recent immigrant origins and thus are considerably poorer than the average American. There actually does exist a connection between poverty and crime, even if liberals make such a claim, and since today’s Hispanic population has roughly the same crime rate as far more affluent whites, there is every reason to expect that this crime rate will drop further as Hispanics continue to move up the economic ladder. As the American Enterprise Institute’s Douglas Besharov pointed out in an important but insufficiently noticed October 2007 New York Times column, the last decade or two have seen an extremely rapid economic advance for most of America’s Hispanic population.[10]“The Rio Grande Rises,” Douglas J. Besharov, October 1, 2007, New York Times. This rise may be connected with the simultaneous and unexpectedly rapid drop in urban crime rates throughout the country.

Meanwhile, the national debate over immigration remains contentious. Restrictionists can provide numerous completely legitimate arguments in favor of their position, ranging from economic competition and cultural conflict to national overpopulation and environmental degradation. But they will discredit these by including unsubstantiated claims about crime. Conservatives have traditionally prided themselves on being realists, dealing with the world as it is rather than attempting to force it to conform to a pre-existing ideological framework. But just as many on the Right succumbed to a fantastical foreign policy that makes the world much more dangerous than it needs to be, some have also accepted the myth that Hispanic immigrants and their children have high crime rates. Such an argument may have considerable emotional appeal, but there is very little hard evidence behind it.

__________________________________________

Ron Unz is publisher of The American Conservative . He thanks Razib Khan for his assistance in obtaining the crime and ethnicity data from several public websites and for running the cross correlations of the data.

References

[1] “Uneven Justice: State Rates of Incarceration by Race and Ethnicity,” Marc Mauer and Ryan S. King, July 2007, The Sentencing Project.

[2] “Prisoners in 2008,” William J. Sabol, Heather C. West, and Matthew Cooper, December 2009, Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin.

[3] “Immigration Enforcement Fuels Rise in U.S. Cases,” John Schwartz, December 21, 2009, New York Times.

[4] “Prison and Jail Inmates at Midyear 2005,” Paige M. Harrison and Allen J. Beck, May 2006, Bureau of Justice Statistics Bulletin.

[5] American Ethnicity calculations are derived from the data provided by the Census Bureau, based on the 2000 Census for that year or the interim American Community Surveys for 2005-2008, available at http://factfinder.census.gov.

[6] “Debunking the Myth of Immigrant Criminality: Imprisonment Among First- and Second-Generation Young Men,” Ruben G. Rumbaut, Roberto G. Gonzales, Golnaz Komaie, and Charlie V. Morgan, June 1, 2006, Migration Policy Institute.

[7] “Immigration and Crime: Assessing a Conflicted Issue,” Steven A. Camarota and Jessica M. Vaughan, November 2009, Center for Immigration Studies.

[8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States _cities_by_crime_rate, January 5, 2010, Wikipedia.

[9] Urban crime rates are derived from the data provided by the FBI’s Uniform Crime Report, available at http://fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm.

[10] “The Rio Grande Rises,” Douglas J. Besharov, October 1, 2007, New York Times.

(Republished from The American Conservative by permission of author or representative)
 
The Hispanic Crime Series
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  1. A tour de force from Mr Unz – brilliant!

    This article is a welcome corrective to an old rule of mine I’ve called the “WSJ principle”, that any article which cites statistics in support of an argument invariably fails to supply the actual statistics needed to support it.

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    • Replies: @Leon Berton
    "Illegals and non-citizens make up 3% and 8% of the population, respectively, but commit at least 22% to 37% of the murders.

    Illegals likely commit murder at about 10 times the rate of all U.S. inhabitants."

    For support from GAO numbers, read:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/illegal_aliens_murder_at_a_much_higher_rate_than_us_citizens_do.html
    , @Father O'Hara
    Could Sailer look it over and give us his take?I don't think I could get thru that big Magilla.
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    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    Until somebody explains that to me, I will continue to act accordingly, and avoid heavily meso-American areas, as I suspect most people do.
    , @Fred K
    Obviously white. Also, I once unknowingly swam in shark infested waters and was not attacked. I therefore conclude that sharks pose no danger to humans whatsoever.
    , @candid_observer
    I look at these 10 most wanted, and, from the names, it's obvious that 9 of the 10 are Hispanic.

    I look at the demographics of Texas, and I find that the proportion of the population that is Hispanic is 34%.

    I consult my handy-dandy binomial distribution calculator, and I find that the probability of such an outcome by chance, assuming equal rates of really, really bad criminal perpetration, is 0.0004007. That is, basically impossible.

    In fact, just to wring some further numbers out of this sample, Hispanics would have to commit at least 61% of these sorts of crimes in order for the probability that 9 out of 10 would turn up on this list would be Hispanic to be p=.05. But at that rate, using the simplified assumption that everyone in Texas was either white or Hispanic, Hispanics would be committing these crimes at a rate of (.61/.34)/(.39/.66)=3.0 times that of whites. Now of course this sample is massively underpowered, so that it may very reasonably be a much higher number (in fact, of course, the most probable number would be a rate of over 10 times that of whites) -- but it's striking how much even such a tiny and underpowered sample seems to imply.

    While of course this example is rather cherry picked, the real problem is that we seem to encounter so many of these sorts of examples when we look at police logs, etc.

    And of course the real virtue of examples like this is that it is we ourselves who can effectively decide who fits which category, based, for example, on obvious ethnic characteristics of names. We don't have to go through the plainly and deliberately distorted filter of governmental statistics.

    We can believe, in this case, what our own eyes are telling us.

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  3. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics):

    Come to Chicago; live (if you do) for 3 days and I’ll tell you about my
    now virtually all–Hispanic neighorhood which has destroyed what used to be–
    ii.e. a place I grew up that was: clean, no gang signs carved into old tree trunks,
    no graffiti almost every building you look, no acid-marred storefronts, no wandering
    (and threatening) gang-bangers walking and hanging out on your streets,
    no horrendous gang-land style crime like assasinations,, no next door neighbors who have been
    arrested for major drug-dealing w. the cartels in Mexico, no
    epidemic of stray dogs and cats and even chickens (and I’ve
    been told by police, goats and horses found in garages), no huge
    gang wars with the blacks (most likely causing the majority of
    shootings of black children), no rampant theft and attacks on
    the elderly robbing them and knocking them down, and children coming home from school
    being beat up for a cell phone. I could go on and on. And it happened when Bush contracted
    w. the then Mexican el president, Fox, and let loose the legion of immigrants to run helter-
    skelter across America, tearing down the American middle-class, while the politicos (who DO
    have an agenda that suits them so there is NO loyalty anymore for America) seduce these
    violent, greedy, mobs (until one day the plug WILL be pulled on them too) and give them every form of welfare and concession– even over American citizens– or they take it anyway by starting
    up criminal enterprise here. Yeah, Unz, you come here…if you dare. Meantime, your lies in defense of trash are meaningless….

    Read More
    • Replies: @John Rebel
    Ron Unz is hispanic? Are you sure about that?
    , @rod1963
    It's more than just crime. It's a quality of life issue. I've lived in California long enough to watch it transform and degrade thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.

    Importing millions of low IQ 3rd worlders has done nothing to improve California, only ruin it and drive the productive class out of state. Our schools, prisons, hospitals are full of illegals who are carried at great cost by the state. Their presence degrades towns and cities across the state once they grow in numbers. They are not a positive influence.

    And their kids, they really aren't fit for STEM or even graduating high school. They don't care about education and really aren't teachable either beyond say 6th grade level or less.

    But when you can afford to live in exclusive neighborhoods where the average house sells for $3 million and change. Well you certainly will have a much more positive view of things than the people living in Arleta, Sylmar or East LA. Mr Unz certainly doesn't have to worry whether it's safe to walk at night or what neighborhoods to avoid.

    As for crime. Here in CA, we have 3 strikes and pro-active policing to keep a lid on the Mexican and black gang violence. This has protected the average person to a large extent,who don't have the option of living in very exclusive areas that automatically weed out everything from Section 8 homes to clown house for illegals.

    But the continuing crime and quality of life issues are driving blacks and Mexicans out of Los Angeles to more rural areas and in the process degrading them as well.

    My town was a nice one, nice working class community. Back in the late 60's up to the mid 70's until Los Angeles dumped their human refuse on us, you couldn't ask for a better rural community. We didn't need to lock our homes or cars. Then came the low income apartments, illegals - not to many at first. But when Grey Davis came in, so did the illegals and it's never stopped since then. That's when everything went to hell.

    Now it's over half Mexican and a dump. Cock and dog fighting are common. We have at least 3000 gangsters in the valley, probably a lot more. All the night clubs have had to shut down because of the Black and Mexican problems. Most of the Mexicans are on some form of public assistance or scamming the system in some manner. Some public schools have been converted to Spanish speaking only schools with very limited curriculum because of the influx of illegals and their kids.

    We didn't have this when we were a white community with a handful of blacks.
    , @DNA
    They won't listen here. Too busy running the USA into the ditch.
    , @woodNfish

    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics)
     
    This is part of the problem. There is no such thing as a hispanic race, it is a phony political designation created to give Spanish speaking citizens more welfare and political recognition. The leftist latino activists in the early 1970s were arguing for Spanish speaking citizens to be recognized as a single homogenous group. They got what they wanted even though the group has nothing in common among its member groups. Mexican descendants are not white European Spanish, nor are white European Spanish descendants the same as Puerto Ricans and Cuban descendants. These people only share the Spanish language, not a common culture. Even so, but they are all considered to be "hispanics". It was a phony BS designation from the start and it should be done away with.
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  4. Joe Webb says:

    “by matching the geographical distribution of crime with census data on Hispanic population percentages, we can gain strong circumstantial evidence about the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites.”
    and, “admittedly, all of the arguments presented here are somewhat statistical and circumstantial.”

    Back in 2005 or so I did two reports on San Mateo Co. and Santa Clara Co (home of Palo Alto, etc).

    I found the Hispanic crime rate around 3 plus times higher than White crime while the black crime was off the charts…values like 30 and 35 times higher for rape and robbery. However, these counties are almost without White working class folks, their having been driven out by low-wage mexicans.

    So, my numbers are only true for these counties. Additionally, the local news runs about 15 to 1 in crime rates…with Whites being 1 vs. mexicans at 15. They also excel at sex crime like child molesting, while blacks don’t do that, they prefer raping women to children. Blacks are almost gone from around here but when they show up for crime, like a recent home invasion in Palo Alto…well, that is where the 30 to 1 figures come in.

    Redwood City is commonly reported now to be about 40 % mexican. Redwood City is the county seat of San Mateo Co. We are building a new jail to house mexicans. If you go into the courts in Redwood City, it is wall to wall mexicans in the halls. The only Whites appear to be lawyers.

    My personal experience with mexicans is ok…in cafes, stores, etc. They are almost always polite and deferential…a sign of their collectivism and need for a patron, as well as their friendly nature, at least for the time being while they lack political clout….sort of , as they now or will soon outnumber Whites.

    Here is the problem. Like Ron, I too used State of California, DoJ statistics and the US census data from year 2000. I do not believe that the census data is accurate. Realistically, with , say, half the mexicans being illegal, there is every incentive to underreport numbers, especially when 2 or more families are in the same house or apartment.(which itself violates local health codes. When I called the Health Dept with this and a question about sewer rates being a giveaway to houses packed with mexicans, the response I got was; “what do you want, us to be Gestapos?,” Television.

    A possible way out of this numbers problem is to look at all Hispanic schools, both for calculating the number of crime age young males, but also for a possibly very rewarding discovery of how Mexicans behave in the school, compared to Whites or Blacks. This latter suggestion could be considered a proxy for real crime rates, since like White or Black bad school behavior, Mexican bad behavior could be linked up with undistorted census numbers of Blacks and Whites.

    Thus if school A was all White, and school B was almost all Black, and the schools were then scored for their numbers of incidents of bad behavior, those scores could be correlated with crime numbers reported by States (not the Feds per their shall we say, impaired methodology that vastly under-reports Hispanic crime.) on White vs. Black crime. This would be a simple computation

    Then , like a rudimentary algebra, the putative real crime rate of Mexicans could be intelligently guessed. This would thereby avoid the vagaries of census data on Mexicans.

    When I did my crime reports a few years ago, I noted that the biggest problem was exactly how many crime age Mexicans there actually were. I did not know and neither did anybody else that I called. Of course, the schools did not want to talk about it, etc. I also stated, in all fairness, that the mexican local crime age demographic might be larger than the White. I could not get that info either, all of which leads me to suspect a Mexican and a liberal in the woodpile.

    Joe Webb

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    • Replies: @Fred K
    Mexico vs Finland (overwhelmingly white)

    Homicides:

    Mexico, 21.5 per 100,000 people.
    Finland, 1.6 per 100,000 people.

    Source
    http://country-facts.findthedata.com/compare/2-94/Mexico-vs-Finland:
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  5. On any given day, more than half of the people I encounter in Palo Alto are Hispanics from immigrant backgrounds.

    Palo Alto according to the census is majority 64% white and only 6% hispanic. California as a whole is 38% hispanic, so your town has 1/6 hispanic rate of your state.

    The nearby city of San Jose better fits the description with 43% white minority and 33% hispanic nearer state average. Of course, you choose not to live in this city of a million and white minority and prefer the commuting-distance small town of 64 thousand with 2/3 white majority and 6% hispanic. Its called white flight.

    I lived for five years in Jackson Heights, Queens, one of the most heavily immigrant and ethnically diverse parts of New York City.

    Jackson Heights is 50% white and only 3% black. You can get more diverse in Manhattan suburbs than 3% black.

    Palo Alto (city), California
    Pop 64,409
    White 64.2%
    Hispanic or Latino 6.2%
    Black 1.9%


    Nearby San Jose:

    Pop 952,576
    White 42.8%
    Hispanic 33.2%

    Jackson Heights, NY
    White 50%
    African American 3%

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  6. A particularly remarkable result is that gigantic Los Angeles—50 percent Hispanic and frequently perceived as a dangerous urban hellhole—has violent crime rates close to those of Portland, Oregon, the whitest major city in the nation at 74 percent.

    If, according to the statistics, Portland is as bad as LA, that would make me doubt the whole thesis, that according to statics, hispanics and whites have the same crime rate.

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  7. conatus says:

    This is a great paragraph and very persuasive:
    “And as it happens, the age distribution in America for Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites is quite different. The median age for Hispanics is around 27, near the absolute peak of the prime-crime age range. But the median white age is over 40, putting nearly half the white population above the likely age range for committing crimes. While it is certainly true that Hispanic 23-year-olds have much greater criminal tendencies than white 45-year-olds, a more useful question is the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites of the same age. Also, many Hispanics are immigrants, and since immigrants are more likely to be male, there will be a gender skew in the general Hispanic population. Therefore, let us consider the Hispanic imprisonment rate relative to the number of males in the high-crime age range.”

    My only question would echo Ann Coulter, if Hispanic crime is benign why does the Government and the Media make it so hard to find the numbers? Like she says, if they can count the number of rental units with no balustrades on the stairs why can’t they count Hispanics? When I was younger I has access to Nexis and I was never able to find decent numbers. I am no statistician so I need someone to spoon feed me the corralled statistics and I was surprised there was no one out there with a spoon.

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    • Replies: @Brohemius
    Ann Coulter is a "Christian Zionist" with only a passing familiarity with the Christian part. She knows that if she wants to keep appearing on TV she has to refrain from criticizing black people, individually and as a group. So, she blames all America's social pathologies, ultimately, on the Catholic Church. You see, black folks sometimes behave badly because, earlier in America's history, they lived in the same neighborhoods as Irish people! And, as we all know, the Irish are Catholic! And Mexicans commit crimes because they believe in a Catholic-style extended family! And black folks can't really be evil 'cause they're mostly Baptists!

    How she ever got blacklisted by National review I'll never know. It seems she fits in wonderfully with Richard Brookheiser and all the other anti-Catholics there.

    She's running from the truth about the U.S.A. as hard as she can. But both time and truth will ultimately overtake her, as they do all of us.
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  8. Dahlia says:

    The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America’s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the “null hypothesis,” namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.

    As a Southerner, I’m pulling rank on all y’all here ;) We know our Blacks, Hispanics, and Rednecks… This is exactly correct that Hispanics are slightly more law-abiding than Southern Whites. Rednecks are rowdier than Hispanics, more likely to get into drunken fights and whatnot. My own redneck step-grandfather as an old man served time for manslaughter (self-defense, but he put himself in the situation by jawing off so just 2.5 years). Like Waylon Jennings once sang, “Just some good ol’ boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law since the day they was born.”

    Lower Class and under Blacks are a completely different class and I often get the sense that Steve and those out West just do not get *this* on that visceral, bone level.
    (I also wonder about the knowledge here among commenters about 19th century gangs in England and especially America as well as their effect on the body politic.
    The Irish immigrant gangs were much worse than anything we’ve experienced and the Know Nothing Party still had limited success.)

    It takes a fascist police force plus killer instincts among the rest of us to keep things tolerable here in Dixie. We don’t get the luxury of being soft or enjoying the nicer things in life that New England has, especially those who are poorer. Hispanics may or may not litter a campground, but it won’t stop anyone else from going. I cannot say the same for the public springs near here that were a favorite of kids because of the, ahem, not Hispanics.

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    • Replies: @Kyle a
    Hispanics are slightly more law abiding than southern rednecks...... You got some numbers to support that claim? Probably not. And the Irish immigrant gangs are not even close to wreaking the havoc that the mexican and Latino sets have blessed our country with. You got something against rednecks? Or is your mexican old man growing restless that you havnt yet taken the plunge so he can get his credentials ?
    , @OilcanFloyd
    I don't know, Dahlai. I'm also a Southerner, and I don't see Hispanics making life better. They are easier to get along with than Blacks, but that's not saying much.
    , @e
    Dahlia,

    Wish is were just litter (which is bad enough.)

    Here in CA, unless you live on the Coast, you see daily what the flood of Mexicans and Central Americans has done to this state on every level.

    I'll take some good ole boys (who used to be quite common in the Central Valley where my sister lives--I live in the East Bay Area) any day.
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  9. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    There is some problem with gangs and drug trade, but yes, the problem is terribly overblown.

    From my personal experience, Mexicans are far less problematic than blacks and even some whites.

    And the data back it up if we control for economic status.

    But it is still permissible to put down Mexicans in the way it is not with blacks, Jews, and homos.

    There is no special word for anti-Mexican feelings like ‘racist’, ‘antisemitic’, or ‘homophobic’.
    To be sure, ‘racist’ can apply to hostile feelings toward any race, but it only stings when blacks are the issue. There isn’t much brouhaha about ‘racist’ attitudes toward Mexicans, Arabs, Chinese, Iranians, Russians, Palestinians, and especially ‘privileged white gentile males’.

    If crime should be the main barometer of who gets to stay in the US, we should have a policy of trying to send blacks to other nations or giving them a nation of their own so they won’t mess with other races. And stop all immigration from black nations, with the possible exception of Igbos from Nigeria who seem to be of higher quality.

    But crime or no crime, the main reason for opposing immigration should be the Loss of White America.
    Suppose every immigrant from the Third World wwere nice and well-behaved and smart and productive. Does that mean US and EU should open the floodgates to the Third World?
    NO! A nation isn’t just about economic growth but history, heritage, culture, and identity. If you fill up a nation with vastly different peoples, the history/heritage/culture/identity will change.

    Look what happened to Palestine as the result of massive influx of Jews.
    Look what happened to Kosovo as the result of massive influx of Albanians.
    Look what happened to Texas(once a part of Mexico) as the result of massive influx of Anglo-Americans.

    A nation is more than about jobs and money. It is about the kind of people who lived there, have roots there, and whose ancestors are buried there.

    But whites in both US and EU have forgotten this because they are forbidden to value their own identity, revere their own history(written negatively as history of oppression and exploitation that requires endless apologies and redemption), and have become mentally addicted to junky disposable pop culture where values and meanings change according to what is hot on TV, which are the latest pop songs, and what kinds of TV ads flood prime time and late night programs.

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    • Replies: @Kyle a
    The problem has more to do than just crime. The monies invested in these poor souls is stagger nig . And the money not invested, but stolen, by the way of taxes, to care for, incarcerate and educate this clan is numbing. We could fix many things wrong in this country if it weren't for the financial burden placed on us by the vast majority of this underclass
    , @Anonymous
    Exactly, Mexicans are terrific, but why on earth should they be brought en mass into the United States ...I just don't get it (?)

    Even from the perspective of Mexicans... Why uproot them from thier own nation

    If it's a humanitarian gesture, why not look for ways to assist in helping Mexico in running thier nation better.

    It's a very odd thing. The success of the U.S. Is really rooted to a large degree on its Anglo Saxon patrimony and political traditions, but it seems like there is a massive effort to destroy and discredit these traditions.

    But at the same time there is a flood Mexicans looking to come an take advantage of this success.

    They are really destroying everything they should be emulating.

    What magic does Texas or Southern California possess that Mexico doesn't? It seems like the same sort of soil?

    Let America keep its ethnic and cultural soul. Let Mexico do the same, there is no reason they can't be happy and successful in thier own nation.
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  10. That statistical crime shrinks as white percentage shrinks is merely a symptom of 3rd world tolerance of dysfunction. Just like reducing the police force lowers crime too….in your statistics.

    Somehow, magically, the overwhelming majority of suspects I see being booked in a suburban, 85+% white, Midwest community are black and hispanic. Yes, I know, it must be racism…

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  11. Ron always likes to talk about cities like El Paso and San Jose when discussing Hispanic crime, but you never hear him mention Stockton, CA, even though it’s the 13th largest city in California and the 4th largest in California’s Central Valley.

    Until very recently, Stockton was the only American city ranked in the top twenty for homicide that did not have a black population larger than the U.S. average of 13 percent.

    The demographics for Stockton in 2010 were…

    Non-Hispanic Whites – 22.9%

    Blacks – 12.2%

    Hispanics – 40.3%

    Asians – 21.5%

    The other cities in the top ten were Detroit (83% black), New Orleans (60%), St Louis (48%), Baltimore (63%), Newark (52%), Oakland (28%), Kansas City (30%), Philadelphia (44%), and Cleveland (53%).

    Stockton is certainly unique in being ranked so high for its homicide rate (#7 in the country in 2012) without having a correspondingly high black population, but there are two other cities in California, with a similar size and demographic makeup as Stockton, which also have usually high homicide rates for cities without disproportionately large black populations.

    The two cities are Fresno (27th highest homicide rate among cities in the country) and Bakersfield (32nd). Fresno is the 5th largest city in California, while Bakersfield is 9th.

    Non-Hispanic whites and blacks make up only 30 percent and 8 percent, respectively, of Fresno’s population, and 38 percent and 8 percent of Bakersfield’s.

    I googled Ron’s name and Stockton, and came up with a nary a word Ron has wrote about the city in relation to Hispanic crime. The same was true of Bakersfield and Fresno.

    But then I stuck in El Paso behind Ron’s name and several hits came up about the issue of Hispanic crime.

    I guess we just see what we want to see.

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    • Replies: @Kyle a
    And the Central Valley gets only the finest of the mexican immigrants .
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  12. D. K. says:

    Let us pretend, purely for the sake of argument, that Mr. Unz’ controversial hypothesis is correct.

    So what?!?

    We are not importing Latin Americans– legally and, especially, illegally– who otherwise match the demographics of White Americans; nor shall we ever!

    The salient issue is not what Hispanic immigrants would be like, crime-wise, if they otherwise matched the demographics of White America. The salient issue (inter alia!) is whether Hispanic immigrants, as they actually are, raise or lower the crime rates in America.

    Hispanic immigrants tend to be disproportionately male. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be young adults. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poor. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be unskilled. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be (Third World) rural folk migrating to urban locations in our (First World) country. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poorly educated. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be stupid. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    What do you think, Mr. Unz? Or, should we submit the overarching salient question to Marilyn vos Savant at “Parade” magazine?!?

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    • Replies: @Brother John
    Ultimately, as the ever-popular and world-famous Ms Coulter asks: Is it good for those already here?
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  13. By the way, if you skim that Wikipedia table I provided in my last post, you’ll see that Stockton, Fresno, and Bakersfield (as well as San Jose and Oakland) are all in the top ten in the country for motor vehicle theft.

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  14. @Anonymous
    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics):

    Come to Chicago; live (if you do) for 3 days and I'll tell you about my
    now virtually all--Hispanic neighorhood which has destroyed what used to be--
    ii.e. a place I grew up that was: clean, no gang signs carved into old tree trunks,
    no graffiti almost every building you look, no acid-marred storefronts, no wandering
    (and threatening) gang-bangers walking and hanging out on your streets,
    no horrendous gang-land style crime like assasinations,, no next door neighbors who have been
    arrested for major drug-dealing w. the cartels in Mexico, no
    epidemic of stray dogs and cats and even chickens (and I've
    been told by police, goats and horses found in garages), no huge
    gang wars with the blacks (most likely causing the majority of
    shootings of black children), no rampant theft and attacks on
    the elderly robbing them and knocking them down, and children coming home from school
    being beat up for a cell phone. I could go on and on. And it happened when Bush contracted
    w. the then Mexican el president, Fox, and let loose the legion of immigrants to run helter-
    skelter across America, tearing down the American middle-class, while the politicos (who DO
    have an agenda that suits them so there is NO loyalty anymore for America) seduce these
    violent, greedy, mobs (until one day the plug WILL be pulled on them too) and give them every form of welfare and concession-- even over American citizens-- or they take it anyway by starting
    up criminal enterprise here. Yeah, Unz, you come here...if you dare. Meantime, your lies in defense of trash are meaningless....

    Ron Unz is hispanic? Are you sure about that?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I believe it's a Hispanic surname. "Unz" like many other Hispanic surnames, ends with a "z".
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  15. Lot says:

    Hispanic incarceration rates are now between 13 and 31 percent above the white average, depending upon which age range we choose for normalization purposes

    I don’t think an up to 31% higher incarceration rate is insignificant at all.

    You briefly note but don’t try develop, that the whites in each age group have, on average, more time in the United States to commit crimes.

    Thus a native white jailed for the first time at 25 is counted equally as a Hispanic 25-year-old who is jailed the same year as his arrival. But the white guy was only incarcerated after 7 years as an adult in the USA, so his per year incarceration rate is 1/7 of the immigrant’s.

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  16. anon says: • Disclaimer

    It’s possible for both to be true i.e. hispanics having the same or lower crime rate than whites *and* for hispanic immigration into a previously white neighborhood to spark a crime wave.

    Crime is heavily skewed to young males so if mass blue collar immigration is skewed to young males then it will lead to a lot of crime.

    If you have a neighborhood with a 1000 people from population A containing 100 young males and then you add another 100 young males from population B then for a population increase of only 10% crime would close to double.

    Not only would standard crime close to double simply because of the doubling of young men the gender disparity itself has consequences that lead to violent crime: gangs, violent competition over females, rape and forced prostitution.

    Once the original population are driven out and the demographics of the immigrant population normalize then crime rates can fall.

    (That doesn’t help the victims of the crime wave part of the process or the people who were forced out of their homes but it is useful info for the 1%.)

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  17. Lot says:

    I am also concerned that mass unskilled Latin American immigration drives crime up generally, regardless of the race of who commits it.

    It is pretty well established that new immigrants, having risked or paid a lot to come to the USA, tend to keep their heads down and avoid activity that could get them deported.

    In taking many of the limited and declining number of low-skill jobs from low-skill natives, however, such immigrants drive up crime rates of low-skill natives.

    The number of working-age men who are simply not in the labor force–not working and not looking for work–keeps growing. This is the group responsible for most crime and social disorder, and a tight market for low-skill men would serve to occupy their idle hands that otherwise would be doing the devil’s work.

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  18. M_Young says:

    Here are the murder rates for Portland, 2009-2013, from City Data dot com (spot checks agree with other sources)

    3.4, 3.9, 3.4, 3.3, 2.3 , mean 3.26

    Here are the relevant figure for Santa Ana

    7.4, 8.2, 4.0, 3.3, 3.9, mean 5.36

    Note the differences in means, note that four out of five times Santa Ana’s murder rate was far above that of Portland, and that Portland’s black population of about 6.3% is 6.3 times that of Santa Ana’s (indeed, a recent (April 2015) triple homicide in the Rose City was committed by you know who). Note also that Portland is much much more of a city, with a gritty Port area, old industrial buildings etc.

    Santa Ana is a green, treelined city of mid-Century moderns, with a gentrifying downtown and some light industry. If it has ‘high densities’ it is because 2-3 ‘Hispanic’ families crowd into houses originally meant for single family dwellings. Density may be a contributing factor in ‘Hispanic’ crime, but since it pretty much comes with mass Mexican/Central American mass migration and so is hardly an ‘independent’ factor from a policy standpoint. Note also that the surrounding or near, much whiter suburbs of Tustin, Costa Mesa, Aliso Viejo, etc have incredibly low crime rates (Tustin had a per 100,000 averageof 1 murder per year 2009-2013). Such cities aren’t wealthy enclaves; but what passes for working class white in today’s California.

    Investigating heavily Hispanic neighborhoods/suburbs like South Gate or Huntington Park will give the same results.

    http://homicide.latimes.com/neighborhood/huntington-park/year/all

    Read More
    • Replies: @Lot
    Good points.

    However, as Steve Sailer has noted, Southern California whites are very law-abiding, more than US whites in general. So they may not be a fair comparison group.

    Costa Mesa is really far from a "working class" area from what I've seen there. I don't think there really are any "working class" nearly all white areas left in Southern California. Probably the closest thing would be someplace like Temecula in SB and Riverside County, not Orange. The whitest parts of Southern California are mostly very wealthy coastal areas and older upper-middle-class distant suburbs with a low percentage of crime-age males.
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  19. anon says: • Disclaimer

    If crime rates in blue collar neighborhoods are partly a function of ethnic conflict for territory then hispanic crime rates should peak where they are displacing black people.

    (and then drop back after they are displaced e.g. LA)

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  20. Kyle a says:
    @Dahlia

    The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America’s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the “null hypothesis,” namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.

     

    As a Southerner, I'm pulling rank on all y'all here ;) We know our Blacks, Hispanics, and Rednecks... This is exactly correct that Hispanics are slightly more law-abiding than Southern Whites. Rednecks are rowdier than Hispanics, more likely to get into drunken fights and whatnot. My own redneck step-grandfather as an old man served time for manslaughter (self-defense, but he put himself in the situation by jawing off so just 2.5 years). Like Waylon Jennings once sang, "Just some good ol' boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law since the day they was born."

    Lower Class and under Blacks are a completely different class and I often get the sense that Steve and those out West just do not get *this* on that visceral, bone level.
    (I also wonder about the knowledge here among commenters about 19th century gangs in England and especially America as well as their effect on the body politic.
    The Irish immigrant gangs were much worse than anything we've experienced and the Know Nothing Party still had limited success.)

    It takes a fascist police force plus killer instincts among the rest of us to keep things tolerable here in Dixie. We don't get the luxury of being soft or enjoying the nicer things in life that New England has, especially those who are poorer. Hispanics may or may not litter a campground, but it won't stop anyone else from going. I cannot say the same for the public springs near here that were a favorite of kids because of the, ahem, not Hispanics.

    Hispanics are slightly more law abiding than southern rednecks…… You got some numbers to support that claim? Probably not. And the Irish immigrant gangs are not even close to wreaking the havoc that the mexican and Latino sets have blessed our country with. You got something against rednecks? Or is your mexican old man growing restless that you havnt yet taken the plunge so he can get his credentials ?

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  21. Lot says:

    Beyond the types of crimes that get you sent to prison, there is the issue of DUI:

    https://www.duicentral.com/dui-statistics/ethnicity/

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  22. Kyle a says:
    @Priss Factor
    There is some problem with gangs and drug trade, but yes, the problem is terribly overblown.

    From my personal experience, Mexicans are far less problematic than blacks and even some whites.

    And the data back it up if we control for economic status.

    But it is still permissible to put down Mexicans in the way it is not with blacks, Jews, and homos.

    There is no special word for anti-Mexican feelings like 'racist', 'antisemitic', or 'homophobic'.
    To be sure, 'racist' can apply to hostile feelings toward any race, but it only stings when blacks are the issue. There isn't much brouhaha about 'racist' attitudes toward Mexicans, Arabs, Chinese, Iranians, Russians, Palestinians, and especially 'privileged white gentile males'.

    If crime should be the main barometer of who gets to stay in the US, we should have a policy of trying to send blacks to other nations or giving them a nation of their own so they won't mess with other races. And stop all immigration from black nations, with the possible exception of Igbos from Nigeria who seem to be of higher quality.

    But crime or no crime, the main reason for opposing immigration should be the Loss of White America.
    Suppose every immigrant from the Third World wwere nice and well-behaved and smart and productive. Does that mean US and EU should open the floodgates to the Third World?
    NO! A nation isn't just about economic growth but history, heritage, culture, and identity. If you fill up a nation with vastly different peoples, the history/heritage/culture/identity will change.

    Look what happened to Palestine as the result of massive influx of Jews.
    Look what happened to Kosovo as the result of massive influx of Albanians.
    Look what happened to Texas(once a part of Mexico) as the result of massive influx of Anglo-Americans.

    A nation is more than about jobs and money. It is about the kind of people who lived there, have roots there, and whose ancestors are buried there.

    But whites in both US and EU have forgotten this because they are forbidden to value their own identity, revere their own history(written negatively as history of oppression and exploitation that requires endless apologies and redemption), and have become mentally addicted to junky disposable pop culture where values and meanings change according to what is hot on TV, which are the latest pop songs, and what kinds of TV ads flood prime time and late night programs.

    The problem has more to do than just crime. The monies invested in these poor souls is stagger nig . And the money not invested, but stolen, by the way of taxes, to care for, incarcerate and educate this clan is numbing. We could fix many things wrong in this country if it weren’t for the financial burden placed on us by the vast majority of this underclass

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  23. Kyle a says:
    @Pincher Martin
    Ron always likes to talk about cities like El Paso and San Jose when discussing Hispanic crime, but you never hear him mention Stockton, CA, even though it's the 13th largest city in California and the 4th largest in California's Central Valley.

    Until very recently, Stockton was the only American city ranked in the top twenty for homicide that did not have a black population larger than the U.S. average of 13 percent.

    The demographics for Stockton in 2010 were...

    Non-Hispanic Whites - 22.9%

    Blacks - 12.2%

    Hispanics - 40.3%

    Asians - 21.5%

    The other cities in the top ten were Detroit (83% black), New Orleans (60%), St Louis (48%), Baltimore (63%), Newark (52%), Oakland (28%), Kansas City (30%), Philadelphia (44%), and Cleveland (53%).

    Stockton is certainly unique in being ranked so high for its homicide rate (#7 in the country in 2012) without having a correspondingly high black population, but there are two other cities in California, with a similar size and demographic makeup as Stockton, which also have usually high homicide rates for cities without disproportionately large black populations.

    The two cities are Fresno (27th highest homicide rate among cities in the country) and Bakersfield (32nd). Fresno is the 5th largest city in California, while Bakersfield is 9th.

    Non-Hispanic whites and blacks make up only 30 percent and 8 percent, respectively, of Fresno's population, and 38 percent and 8 percent of Bakersfield's.

    I googled Ron's name and Stockton, and came up with a nary a word Ron has wrote about the city in relation to Hispanic crime. The same was true of Bakersfield and Fresno.

    But then I stuck in El Paso behind Ron's name and several hits came up about the issue of Hispanic crime.

    I guess we just see what we want to see.

    And the Central Valley gets only the finest of the mexican immigrants .

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  24. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @John Rebel
    Ron Unz is hispanic? Are you sure about that?

    I believe it’s a Hispanic surname. “Unz” like many other Hispanic surnames, ends with a “z”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @JJ
    Ron Unz's ethnic heritage is Israeli-Russian (Jewish).

    I think his analysis of the statistics is persuasive.
    , @Apolitical
    Unz is a Hispanic surname? Try Germanic. Don't just make stuff up to suit your paranoia.
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  25. M_Young says:

    And here are some anecdotes — a lot of anecdotes about crimes; the petty, just not following the rules, non-violent, won’t show up in any stats crime that makes places deteriorate

    An alpine creek that reeks
    Budget cuts hinder law enforcement along San Gabriel River
    September 30, 2012|Louis Sahagun
    Email
    Share

    [Pastor Juan Morales, left, prays after baptizing a worshiper in the East Fork of the San Gabriel River.]

    “Thousands of picnickers and gold prospectors park every weekend along a two-lane road overlooking the East Fork of the San Gabriel River, then trundle down to the mountain creek with ice chests, boomboxes, shovels, sluice boxes and baby carriers strung with diapers.

    They litter, light campfires, defecate in the wild, dig for gold and engage in many other banned activities along the river. U.S. Forest Service rangers try in vain to curtail the abuses but are hopelessly outnumbered.”

    Read More
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  26. Lot says:

    Here are two other factors that will tend to understate Hispanic crime rates:

    1. It is well established that most crime in intra-racial, and further that immigrants are less likely to trust the police and report crime, and on top of this illegal immigrants fear any contact with the police. Thus, a Hispanic committing a crime will tend to have a Hispanic victim who is much less likely to report the crime. The criminal, even if arrested, will still then be less likely to have a willing and cooperating complainant and witness(es) to testify against him.

    2. Illegal immigrants who commit crimes are frequently deported upon becoming eligible for early release. Natives are not, but are instead placed on parole upon early release. Parole, however, is often revoked for reasons that do not involve additional crime, or at least additional serious crime: e.g., not showing up to the PO meeting, testing positive for marijuana, associating with the wrong people, etc. Thus, on average, illegal immigrants will be more likely to only be incarcerated for their sentence minus early parole release, while natives will, for the same crime, have some additional period of incarceration associated with their rate of parole revocation.

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  27. Lot says:
    @M_Young
    Here are the murder rates for Portland, 2009-2013, from City Data dot com (spot checks agree with other sources)

    3.4, 3.9, 3.4, 3.3, 2.3 , mean 3.26

    Here are the relevant figure for Santa Ana

    7.4, 8.2, 4.0, 3.3, 3.9, mean 5.36

    Note the differences in means, note that four out of five times Santa Ana's murder rate was far above that of Portland, and that Portland's black population of about 6.3% is 6.3 times that of Santa Ana's (indeed, a recent (April 2015) triple homicide in the Rose City was committed by you know who). Note also that Portland is much much more of a city, with a gritty Port area, old industrial buildings etc.

    Santa Ana is a green, treelined city of mid-Century moderns, with a gentrifying downtown and some light industry. If it has 'high densities' it is because 2-3 'Hispanic' families crowd into houses originally meant for single family dwellings. Density may be a contributing factor in 'Hispanic' crime, but since it pretty much comes with mass Mexican/Central American mass migration and so is hardly an 'independent' factor from a policy standpoint. Note also that the surrounding or near, much whiter suburbs of Tustin, Costa Mesa, Aliso Viejo, etc have incredibly low crime rates (Tustin had a per 100,000 averageof 1 murder per year 2009-2013). Such cities aren't wealthy enclaves; but what passes for working class white in today's California.

    Investigating heavily Hispanic neighborhoods/suburbs like South Gate or Huntington Park will give the same results.

    http://homicide.latimes.com/neighborhood/huntington-park/year/all

    Good points.

    However, as Steve Sailer has noted, Southern California whites are very law-abiding, more than US whites in general. So they may not be a fair comparison group.

    Costa Mesa is really far from a “working class” area from what I’ve seen there. I don’t think there really are any “working class” nearly all white areas left in Southern California. Probably the closest thing would be someplace like Temecula in SB and Riverside County, not Orange. The whitest parts of Southern California are mostly very wealthy coastal areas and older upper-middle-class distant suburbs with a low percentage of crime-age males.

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  28. rod1963 says:
    @Anonymous
    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics):

    Come to Chicago; live (if you do) for 3 days and I'll tell you about my
    now virtually all--Hispanic neighorhood which has destroyed what used to be--
    ii.e. a place I grew up that was: clean, no gang signs carved into old tree trunks,
    no graffiti almost every building you look, no acid-marred storefronts, no wandering
    (and threatening) gang-bangers walking and hanging out on your streets,
    no horrendous gang-land style crime like assasinations,, no next door neighbors who have been
    arrested for major drug-dealing w. the cartels in Mexico, no
    epidemic of stray dogs and cats and even chickens (and I've
    been told by police, goats and horses found in garages), no huge
    gang wars with the blacks (most likely causing the majority of
    shootings of black children), no rampant theft and attacks on
    the elderly robbing them and knocking them down, and children coming home from school
    being beat up for a cell phone. I could go on and on. And it happened when Bush contracted
    w. the then Mexican el president, Fox, and let loose the legion of immigrants to run helter-
    skelter across America, tearing down the American middle-class, while the politicos (who DO
    have an agenda that suits them so there is NO loyalty anymore for America) seduce these
    violent, greedy, mobs (until one day the plug WILL be pulled on them too) and give them every form of welfare and concession-- even over American citizens-- or they take it anyway by starting
    up criminal enterprise here. Yeah, Unz, you come here...if you dare. Meantime, your lies in defense of trash are meaningless....

    It’s more than just crime. It’s a quality of life issue. I’ve lived in California long enough to watch it transform and degrade thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.

    Importing millions of low IQ 3rd worlders has done nothing to improve California, only ruin it and drive the productive class out of state. Our schools, prisons, hospitals are full of illegals who are carried at great cost by the state. Their presence degrades towns and cities across the state once they grow in numbers. They are not a positive influence.

    And their kids, they really aren’t fit for STEM or even graduating high school. They don’t care about education and really aren’t teachable either beyond say 6th grade level or less.

    But when you can afford to live in exclusive neighborhoods where the average house sells for $3 million and change. Well you certainly will have a much more positive view of things than the people living in Arleta, Sylmar or East LA. Mr Unz certainly doesn’t have to worry whether it’s safe to walk at night or what neighborhoods to avoid.

    As for crime. Here in CA, we have 3 strikes and pro-active policing to keep a lid on the Mexican and black gang violence. This has protected the average person to a large extent,who don’t have the option of living in very exclusive areas that automatically weed out everything from Section 8 homes to clown house for illegals.

    But the continuing crime and quality of life issues are driving blacks and Mexicans out of Los Angeles to more rural areas and in the process degrading them as well.

    My town was a nice one, nice working class community. Back in the late 60′s up to the mid 70′s until Los Angeles dumped their human refuse on us, you couldn’t ask for a better rural community. We didn’t need to lock our homes or cars. Then came the low income apartments, illegals – not to many at first. But when Grey Davis came in, so did the illegals and it’s never stopped since then. That’s when everything went to hell.

    Now it’s over half Mexican and a dump. Cock and dog fighting are common. We have at least 3000 gangsters in the valley, probably a lot more. All the night clubs have had to shut down because of the Black and Mexican problems. Most of the Mexicans are on some form of public assistance or scamming the system in some manner. Some public schools have been converted to Spanish speaking only schools with very limited curriculum because of the influx of illegals and their kids.

    We didn’t have this when we were a white community with a handful of blacks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous

    thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.
     
    They've been using that number without change for the past fifteen years as though nothing has happened since then. They've been coming and coming every year. Who knows what the actual number is by now, it's all underground and covered over. Anecdotally, people all across this country report the massive growth of the Hispanic population everywhere, in places they weren't in before, in public school systems, social service agencies, jails, etc. And don't leave out all the anchor children, beneficiaries of their parents illegal presence. Don't believe the bs number of illegals that they give out.
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  29. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Mr Unz could be right , sorta but it may be a matter of percentages. It doesn’t take many people to have a crime wave. I’ve read that of the 66 million population of Iraq only about 60-70k were actual insurgent fighters but kept our military there for over 10 yrs. Only about 1500 dedicated IRA terrorists /fighters kept the British in N. Ireland for over 3 decades.
    The crime may not be homicides but I think in Hispanic neighborhoods theft and robbery is rampant. Cars and homes broken in to and the like

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  30. Hispanic crime, my dear Mr. Unz, is just one ravenous head of the many ravenous heads of the Imminvasion Hydra. Some of those other heads are: imminvaders’ depression of Americans’ wages for ever scarcer jobs; imminvaders’ net cost to Americans of the of welfare which imminvaders’ gobble and whose value exceeds the imminvaders’ “contribution” to us and to our country; imminvaders’ driving up real estate and rental costs; Putnam’s findings of “Diversity” reducing social trust – even among us native-born Americans; cultural displacement and dispossession of Americans and American culture; imminvasion’s enormous and irresistible temptations to our Dear Rulers and plutocrats to engage in lucrative corruption at the expense of Americans.

    Hence the point is this: we Americans and our country never needed to import anyone beyond the pre-1965 immigration standards of 1924. I was alive back then, and back then we were One People – successfully and harmoniously assimilated and possessed of a shared culture and customs – who had a crackling good, best-ever country that we lived in. Today we are being forced to watch our Dear Rulers flush what’s left of what used to be our country – and us – down history’s toilet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    Hispanic crime... is just one ravenous head of the many ravenous heads of the Imminvasion Hydra.

    This.

    I don't get Ron's logic here. Crime is like an open wound on your leg. Just because the open wound brought by immigrants is no worse than the open wound you already have, we should be happy and want more. Sheesh. No wonder we are so lost as a country.
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  31. Sean1 says:

    Excellent article and especially an excellent, easy-to-read analysis. Immigration is still broken, though, regardless of either claims of conservatives and liberals regarding Hispanics/Latinos.

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  32. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    There is some problem with gangs and drug trade, but yes, the problem is terribly overblown.

    From my personal experience, Mexicans are far less problematic than blacks and even some whites.

    And the data back it up if we control for economic status.

    But it is still permissible to put down Mexicans in the way it is not with blacks, Jews, and homos.

    There is no special word for anti-Mexican feelings like 'racist', 'antisemitic', or 'homophobic'.
    To be sure, 'racist' can apply to hostile feelings toward any race, but it only stings when blacks are the issue. There isn't much brouhaha about 'racist' attitudes toward Mexicans, Arabs, Chinese, Iranians, Russians, Palestinians, and especially 'privileged white gentile males'.

    If crime should be the main barometer of who gets to stay in the US, we should have a policy of trying to send blacks to other nations or giving them a nation of their own so they won't mess with other races. And stop all immigration from black nations, with the possible exception of Igbos from Nigeria who seem to be of higher quality.

    But crime or no crime, the main reason for opposing immigration should be the Loss of White America.
    Suppose every immigrant from the Third World wwere nice and well-behaved and smart and productive. Does that mean US and EU should open the floodgates to the Third World?
    NO! A nation isn't just about economic growth but history, heritage, culture, and identity. If you fill up a nation with vastly different peoples, the history/heritage/culture/identity will change.

    Look what happened to Palestine as the result of massive influx of Jews.
    Look what happened to Kosovo as the result of massive influx of Albanians.
    Look what happened to Texas(once a part of Mexico) as the result of massive influx of Anglo-Americans.

    A nation is more than about jobs and money. It is about the kind of people who lived there, have roots there, and whose ancestors are buried there.

    But whites in both US and EU have forgotten this because they are forbidden to value their own identity, revere their own history(written negatively as history of oppression and exploitation that requires endless apologies and redemption), and have become mentally addicted to junky disposable pop culture where values and meanings change according to what is hot on TV, which are the latest pop songs, and what kinds of TV ads flood prime time and late night programs.

    Exactly, Mexicans are terrific, but why on earth should they be brought en mass into the United States …I just don’t get it (?)

    Even from the perspective of Mexicans… Why uproot them from thier own nation

    If it’s a humanitarian gesture, why not look for ways to assist in helping Mexico in running thier nation better.

    It’s a very odd thing. The success of the U.S. Is really rooted to a large degree on its Anglo Saxon patrimony and political traditions, but it seems like there is a massive effort to destroy and discredit these traditions.

    But at the same time there is a flood Mexicans looking to come an take advantage of this success.

    They are really destroying everything they should be emulating.

    What magic does Texas or Southern California possess that Mexico doesn’t? It seems like the same sort of soil?

    Let America keep its ethnic and cultural soul. Let Mexico do the same, there is no reason they can’t be happy and successful in thier own nation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Anti-Gnostic
    I suspect the crime stats are deeply flawed, as indicated by that fugitive page from Texas law enforcement.

    Leaving aside the crime issue, mass Hispanic immigration is a net zero or worse. All those hardworking sheetrock hangers and pine straw spreaders will be disabled by age 55. Four foot tall, muffin-topped Aztecas don't outmarry, so they'll be a permanent underclass just like in their homelands. They promulgate a ridiculous, juvenile culture. About the only plus is, as somebody mentioned, they are buffer zones for blacks.

    People make nations and cultures, not geographic coordinates. I like living in white America. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I'd move there.
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  33. Realist says:

    In the United States:

    What per cent of blacks are incarcerated?

    What per cent of Hispanics are incarcerated?

    What per cent of whites are incarcerated?

    Those are the numbers that matter.

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  34. Sunbeam says:

    “Hispanics are slightly more law abiding than southern rednecks……”

    Another Southerner here. They probably are, but I am too old for the bar scene, and I don’t hang out with hispanics. But yes, I think the statement is valid.

    You got some numbers to disprove that claim? Probably not.

    And as another anecdote I was actually surprised when I found out blacks were supposed to be prone to drug and substance abuse.

    They always seemed like lightweights in that category to me.

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  35. @philip gahtan
    are these fellas white or hispanic
    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    Until somebody explains that to me, I will continue to act accordingly, and avoid heavily meso-American areas, as I suspect most people do.

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  36. “hispanic” is useless term anyway. I guess black hispanics have similar crime rates to non-hispanic blacks, for whites the same. and maybe mestizo hispanics have crime rates more similar to some kind of white-asian mixed people, which reflects their heritage.
    I have the strong feeling that especially hispanics from mexiko are used as scapegoats when people want to avoid taking about black violence.

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  37. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @rod1963
    It's more than just crime. It's a quality of life issue. I've lived in California long enough to watch it transform and degrade thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.

    Importing millions of low IQ 3rd worlders has done nothing to improve California, only ruin it and drive the productive class out of state. Our schools, prisons, hospitals are full of illegals who are carried at great cost by the state. Their presence degrades towns and cities across the state once they grow in numbers. They are not a positive influence.

    And their kids, they really aren't fit for STEM or even graduating high school. They don't care about education and really aren't teachable either beyond say 6th grade level or less.

    But when you can afford to live in exclusive neighborhoods where the average house sells for $3 million and change. Well you certainly will have a much more positive view of things than the people living in Arleta, Sylmar or East LA. Mr Unz certainly doesn't have to worry whether it's safe to walk at night or what neighborhoods to avoid.

    As for crime. Here in CA, we have 3 strikes and pro-active policing to keep a lid on the Mexican and black gang violence. This has protected the average person to a large extent,who don't have the option of living in very exclusive areas that automatically weed out everything from Section 8 homes to clown house for illegals.

    But the continuing crime and quality of life issues are driving blacks and Mexicans out of Los Angeles to more rural areas and in the process degrading them as well.

    My town was a nice one, nice working class community. Back in the late 60's up to the mid 70's until Los Angeles dumped their human refuse on us, you couldn't ask for a better rural community. We didn't need to lock our homes or cars. Then came the low income apartments, illegals - not to many at first. But when Grey Davis came in, so did the illegals and it's never stopped since then. That's when everything went to hell.

    Now it's over half Mexican and a dump. Cock and dog fighting are common. We have at least 3000 gangsters in the valley, probably a lot more. All the night clubs have had to shut down because of the Black and Mexican problems. Most of the Mexicans are on some form of public assistance or scamming the system in some manner. Some public schools have been converted to Spanish speaking only schools with very limited curriculum because of the influx of illegals and their kids.

    We didn't have this when we were a white community with a handful of blacks.

    thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.

    They’ve been using that number without change for the past fifteen years as though nothing has happened since then. They’ve been coming and coming every year. Who knows what the actual number is by now, it’s all underground and covered over. Anecdotally, people all across this country report the massive growth of the Hispanic population everywhere, in places they weren’t in before, in public school systems, social service agencies, jails, etc. And don’t leave out all the anchor children, beneficiaries of their parents illegal presence. Don’t believe the bs number of illegals that they give out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @rod1963
    I agree with everything you said.

    Undoubtedly it's much higher and when you factor in all the anchor babies and their natural high birth rate they are breeding like mad. This is all kept out of the MSM.

    Of course it's made easier for them because the government takes cares of their needs in the form of SNAP cards, SSI disability(you ought to see the local SS office - full of illegals who can't speak a word of English applying), free medical, housing and education.
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  38. It’s a myth because it’s “just 80 percent above” the white rate? The complaint is not about so called Hispanics, but the illegal alien criminal element that Trump mentions, to his peril. If I were wanted for crimes in Mexico I’d head north, and if I were unemployed or sickly or disabled, I’d make it to the border and yell asylum when arrested 10 yards past the border, dragging along a 5-year niece for insurance. Then I’d await my head of the line entry to free housing, food stamps, SSI disability, free medical ect. If anyone objects, I’ll tell them they are racist and illegally register to vote to thank those who helped me because no one can ask me for an ID or proof of citizenship, because that is racist.

    Read More
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  39. Mr. Unz,

    So what? They are illegal aliens. GET THEM OUT!!!

    Read More
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  40. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I used to work in a federal agency (not ICE) where I would see large numbers, extremely large numbers, of non-citizen criminals allowed to go free because of failure to identify individuals due to language barriers and various aliases and bogus Mexican Consular IDs (I saw firsthand that the Mexico government was running this criminal relocation program). And even when we could identify someone with serious federal felony warrants we couldn’t get them picked up because the local cops would run NCIC checks and not find them. When we implored them they would say it’s not their problem, it’s the Feds problem, and let the criminal go. And, btw, if not in NCIC would mean not in FBI crime stats. If people knew what was really going on they would require grief counseling and/or a mental hospital with a rubber room.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous

    If people knew what was really going on...
     
    All this has come from the very top and transcends the party affiliation of whoever is in the White House. The Mexican government has also been heavily involved in offloading their surplus population on us. At the lower levels of the various bureaucracies employee's hands are tied despite what they might think about what's going on. It engenders a 'not my job', 'let somebody else handle it' attitude.
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  41. bomag says:
    @Auntie Analogue
    Hispanic crime, my dear Mr. Unz, is just one ravenous head of the many ravenous heads of the Imminvasion Hydra. Some of those other heads are: imminvaders' depression of Americans' wages for ever scarcer jobs; imminvaders' net cost to Americans of the of welfare which imminvaders' gobble and whose value exceeds the imminvaders' "contribution" to us and to our country; imminvaders' driving up real estate and rental costs; Putnam's findings of "Diversity" reducing social trust - even among us native-born Americans; cultural displacement and dispossession of Americans and American culture; imminvasion's enormous and irresistible temptations to our Dear Rulers and plutocrats to engage in lucrative corruption at the expense of Americans.

    Hence the point is this: we Americans and our country never needed to import anyone beyond the pre-1965 immigration standards of 1924. I was alive back then, and back then we were One People - successfully and harmoniously assimilated and possessed of a shared culture and customs - who had a crackling good, best-ever country that we lived in. Today we are being forced to watch our Dear Rulers flush what's left of what used to be our country - and us - down history's toilet.

    Hispanic crime… is just one ravenous head of the many ravenous heads of the Imminvasion Hydra.

    This.

    I don’t get Ron’s logic here. Crime is like an open wound on your leg. Just because the open wound brought by immigrants is no worse than the open wound you already have, we should be happy and want more. Sheesh. No wonder we are so lost as a country.

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  42. C says:

    Can someone answer this question before I read this: Does Ron acknowledge that the classification of “Hispanics” varies greatly on a case by case basis? I.e. in my state, you can have two guys named Rodriguez who have committed murder and have the exact same (brown) skin tone and yet one guy will be labeled white and the other will be labelled Hispanic? Seriously, look up prisoners in your state and see what I mean. And that some states just lump Hispanics into the white group as a whole?

    Hispanic crime is nearly impossible to figure out because of discrepancies such as this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    Ron acknowledges this:

    Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. Therefore, indirect means must be used to estimate the crime rate of Hispanics compared to whites... One metric to examine might be relative incarceration rates, since most people who begin a life of criminal activity end up behind bars sooner or later—usually sooner. Furthermore, since so much of prison violence is along racial lines, correctional authorities are careful to record the ethnicity of individual inmates, and the aggregate data is made available annually by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    Depending on correction officials to "carefully to record the ethnicity of individual inmates" is a bit dicey in my experience. They are under the same PC pressures as the rest of the Cathedral drones.

    , @officious intermeddler

    look up prisoners in your state
     
    I did this. It appears to me that the prisons are reporting ethnicity correctly.

    I checked the New York State Department of Corrections website. http://nysdoccslookup.doccs.ny.gov/kinqw00. It allows you to enter a name and generate a list of all prisoners with that name, showing the ethnicity of each. Because (as they say), Hispanics may be of any race, prisoners identified as Hispanic may be shown with a subclassification such as “Hispanic/White,” “Hispanic/Black,” “Hispanic/Native American” or “Hispanic/Other." I found 89 prisoners named Juan Perez, of whom 88 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 34 cases) and 1 was classified as “White.” There were 49 named John, Johnny, Johnnie or Jonathan Perez, of whom 48 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 18 cases) and 1 as “Black."

    I then checked the New York City Department of Corrections website. http://a073-ils-web.nyc.gov/inmatelookup/pages/common/find.jsf. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given name, but the list does not show ethnicity. To get that information, you need to click on each prisoner's name individually. The NYC website seems to recognize only 4 ethnicities: White, Black, Asian and Other. There were 5 prisoners named Juan Perez or John Perez. All of them were listed as “Other.” Since that number was small, I did a spot check of 40 other prisoners with the surname, “Perez." I found that 39 of them were classified as "Other" and one was classified as "Black."

    I also checked the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website. http://offender.tdcj.texas.gov/OffenderSearch/index.jsp. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given surname and first initial, showing the ethnicity of each prisoner. I found 203 prisoners named “J. Perez,” of which 196 were “Hispanic,” 6 were “White” and 1 was “Indian."

    The website of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation does not show information about ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx.

    However, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department website does show ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx. There were 226 prisoners named "Juan Perez.” Every single one of them was classified as "Hispanic." There were 72 prisoners named "John Perez." All of them were also classified as "Hispanic."

    By itself, this information doesn't tell us anything about rates of criminality among Hispanics. But it certainly indicates that, at least in New York, Texas and California, prison officials are not playing politically correct games with classification. They are correctly identifying Hispanic prisoners as such.

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  43. @Stephen Gould
    A tour de force from Mr Unz - brilliant!

    This article is a welcome corrective to an old rule of mine I've called the "WSJ principle", that any article which cites statistics in support of an argument invariably fails to supply the actual statistics needed to support it.

    “Illegals and non-citizens make up 3% and 8% of the population, respectively, but commit at least 22% to 37% of the murders.

    Illegals likely commit murder at about 10 times the rate of all U.S. inhabitants.”

    For support from GAO numbers, read:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/illegal_aliens_murder_at_a_much_higher_rate_than_us_citizens_do.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff
    You just proved Mr. Gould’s point.
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  44. Realist says:

    How does letting more low IQ people into the US help this country?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    Well, Ron would say that Hispanics are not low IQ, but more like the Irish, and that any generation now we'll start seeing convergence.
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  45. Esteemed Mr. Unz,

    With all respect, statistics and demographics are irrelevant to this issue. What matters is that the border is essentially open and unmonitored. If one additional criminal enters the United States through it, then that’s one more criminal than we would otherwise have had.

    Each person should be checked before being allowed entry. That will not prevent all crime by immigrants, but it will reduce it.

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  46. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I live in the Boston area. I’m always reading about these myths. This morning I read about an 11-year old girl sexually assaulted at a public pool in Waltham by a myth (an illegal Guatemalan myth). A stabbing at a motel in Wrentham by a myth. A heroin trafficking ring in Lawrence by a myth. Ron Unz needs to get his head out of his ass and go to his local courthouse and read the docket sheet that day. It is chock-full of myths, some heinous myths and myths involving firearms.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    ...go to his local courthouse and read the docket sheet that day.

    Every courtroom I've been close to all over this country has had a large requirement for translators.
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  47. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    I used to work in a federal agency (not ICE) where I would see large numbers, extremely large numbers, of non-citizen criminals allowed to go free because of failure to identify individuals due to language barriers and various aliases and bogus Mexican Consular IDs (I saw firsthand that the Mexico government was running this criminal relocation program). And even when we could identify someone with serious federal felony warrants we couldn't get them picked up because the local cops would run NCIC checks and not find them. When we implored them they would say it's not their problem, it's the Feds problem, and let the criminal go. And, btw, if not in NCIC would mean not in FBI crime stats. If people knew what was really going on they would require grief counseling and/or a mental hospital with a rubber room.

    If people knew what was really going on…

    All this has come from the very top and transcends the party affiliation of whoever is in the White House. The Mexican government has also been heavily involved in offloading their surplus population on us. At the lower levels of the various bureaucracies employee’s hands are tied despite what they might think about what’s going on. It engenders a ‘not my job’, ‘let somebody else handle it’ attitude.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    All this has come from the very top and transcends the party affiliation of whoever is in the White House. The Mexican government has also been heavily involved in offloading their surplus population on us. At the lower levels of the various bureaucracies employee’s hands are tied despite what they might think about what’s going on. It engenders a ‘not my job’, ‘let somebody else handle it’ attitude.
     
    One of the biggest ports of entry was LAS (Vegas airport). Wave after wave of fifty/hundred at a time. All with Mexican Consular IDs, with a Spanish-speaking handler, and they all knew the magic phrase to tell U.S. officials to be automatically allowed free passage. And on the other side no one gives a shit either. I would try to broach the subject with coworkers and quickly got the feeling I was making them uncomfortable, a question asker in an order-following Fed bureaucracy. Even the retired military officers who talked a good game of protecting America and American interests, were pussies about even talking about it lest it derail their cushy six-figure careers "protecting America". All of this was under G.W. Bush by the way.

    I have little confidence in Ron Unz's analysis, he is not privy to the information I saw daily.

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  48. @Realist
    How does letting more low IQ people into the US help this country?

    Well, Ron would say that Hispanics are not low IQ, but more like the Irish, and that any generation now we’ll start seeing convergence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    Then Ron would be wrong.
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  49. Biff says:

    Just to paraphrase most of the comments:

    “No Unz! You’re just wrong, wrong WRONG!, In addition to that, I just can’t stand the sight of THEM!!”

    Read More
    • Replies: @bomag
    To paraphrase Biff:

    --My side is winning, to the point where we can just declare victory and mock the losers. That the arc of accomplishments by the civilized West is coming to an end doesn't bother me. I don't look that far ahead.--
    , @rod1963
    No, he's trying to convince people who have direct and long term experience with Mexicans that they aren't a blight on American society.

    Problem is they are a blight. They add nothing to our society except problems, many problems and are very costly. When there is enough of them here and they gain political power they will turn large parts of the U.S. into Mexico complete with drug cartel presence.
    , @anon
    If mass immigration is skewed to young males then they will create a crime wave.

    It's not complicated.

    The people who support mass immigration don't care about all the white people who get raped and murdered during the high crime immigration phase as long as the end result after that phase is ok (for them).

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  50. Biff says:
    @Leon Berton
    "Illegals and non-citizens make up 3% and 8% of the population, respectively, but commit at least 22% to 37% of the murders.

    Illegals likely commit murder at about 10 times the rate of all U.S. inhabitants."

    For support from GAO numbers, read:

    http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2015/07/illegal_aliens_murder_at_a_much_higher_rate_than_us_citizens_do.html

    You just proved Mr. Gould’s point.

    Read More
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  51. bomag says:
    @C
    Can someone answer this question before I read this: Does Ron acknowledge that the classification of "Hispanics" varies greatly on a case by case basis? I.e. in my state, you can have two guys named Rodriguez who have committed murder and have the exact same (brown) skin tone and yet one guy will be labeled white and the other will be labelled Hispanic? Seriously, look up prisoners in your state and see what I mean. And that some states just lump Hispanics into the white group as a whole?

    Hispanic crime is nearly impossible to figure out because of discrepancies such as this.

    Ron acknowledges this:

    Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. Therefore, indirect means must be used to estimate the crime rate of Hispanics compared to whites… One metric to examine might be relative incarceration rates, since most people who begin a life of criminal activity end up behind bars sooner or later—usually sooner. Furthermore, since so much of prison violence is along racial lines, correctional authorities are careful to record the ethnicity of individual inmates, and the aggregate data is made available annually by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    Depending on correction officials to “carefully to record the ethnicity of individual inmates” is a bit dicey in my experience. They are under the same PC pressures as the rest of the Cathedral drones.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. "

    This has been a problem for quite awhile.
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  52. schmenz says:

    As the author noted, personal experience is not definitive but it does help in gaining an understanding.

    Here is Milwaukee we have two large non-white minorities, blacks and Hispanics. While I do see evidence of Hispanic crime I still feel relatively safe being in a predominantly Hispanic neighborhood. But no one unless he is insane would stroll through a typical black area at any time of the day or night. This is the daily reality that we experience here. Local crime rates confirm this handily.

    One factor in the difference in crime rates between blacks and Hispanics would, I think, be the vestigial Catholicism still found among the Spanish. I suspect their crime rates would go even lower if the Church would stop making nice with “the world” and go back to the strong teachings it had before its “glorious revolution” in the 1960s.

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  53. bomag says:
    @Biff
    Just to paraphrase most of the comments:

    "No Unz! You’re just wrong, wrong WRONG!, In addition to that, I just can’t stand the sight of THEM!!"

    To paraphrase Biff:

    –My side is winning, to the point where we can just declare victory and mock the losers. That the arc of accomplishments by the civilized West is coming to an end doesn’t bother me. I don’t look that far ahead.–

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff

    That the arc of accomplishments by the civilized West is coming to an end doesn’t bother me.
     
    Coercion via militarism? Yea, that one can go by the way of the Dodo...
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  54. bomag says:
    @Anonymous
    I live in the Boston area. I'm always reading about these myths. This morning I read about an 11-year old girl sexually assaulted at a public pool in Waltham by a myth (an illegal Guatemalan myth). A stabbing at a motel in Wrentham by a myth. A heroin trafficking ring in Lawrence by a myth. Ron Unz needs to get his head out of his ass and go to his local courthouse and read the docket sheet that day. It is chock-full of myths, some heinous myths and myths involving firearms.

    …go to his local courthouse and read the docket sheet that day.

    Every courtroom I’ve been close to all over this country has had a large requirement for translators.

    Read More
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  55. I don’t know about the charts, graphs and official records, but I do know that the town where I grew up is a far worse place now that hispanics make up a large part of the population. Hispanics run the drug trade, and they use real gangs to distribute, rather than local losers wishing to score with high school and college girls while they delay becoming adults for a few more years.

    When charts, graphs and official records don’t reflect reality, I assume they are inaccurate and ignore them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Existential Confusion

    "I don’t know about the charts, graphs and official records, but I do know that the town where I grew up is a far worse place now that hispanics make up a large part of the population."
     
    I have exactly the same experience. I guess we are just two uninlightened cretins, who are to stupid to understand that we should believe statistics, not our own experiences. Statistics are reality.
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  56. fnn says:

    I’m against Mexican immigration because I hate littering and dog fighting. Here in Costa Rica dog fighting is a despised activity-though there is a lot of littering.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "I hate littering and dog fighting. "

    Dog fighting is big with blacks also....entertainment for low lifes.

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  57. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anonymous

    If people knew what was really going on...
     
    All this has come from the very top and transcends the party affiliation of whoever is in the White House. The Mexican government has also been heavily involved in offloading their surplus population on us. At the lower levels of the various bureaucracies employee's hands are tied despite what they might think about what's going on. It engenders a 'not my job', 'let somebody else handle it' attitude.

    All this has come from the very top and transcends the party affiliation of whoever is in the White House. The Mexican government has also been heavily involved in offloading their surplus population on us. At the lower levels of the various bureaucracies employee’s hands are tied despite what they might think about what’s going on. It engenders a ‘not my job’, ‘let somebody else handle it’ attitude.

    One of the biggest ports of entry was LAS (Vegas airport). Wave after wave of fifty/hundred at a time. All with Mexican Consular IDs, with a Spanish-speaking handler, and they all knew the magic phrase to tell U.S. officials to be automatically allowed free passage. And on the other side no one gives a shit either. I would try to broach the subject with coworkers and quickly got the feeling I was making them uncomfortable, a question asker in an order-following Fed bureaucracy. Even the retired military officers who talked a good game of protecting America and American interests, were pussies about even talking about it lest it derail their cushy six-figure careers “protecting America”. All of this was under G.W. Bush by the way.

    I have little confidence in Ron Unz’s analysis, he is not privy to the information I saw daily.

    Read More
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  58. Mr. Unz’s experiences in the Bay Area parallel those of my own. I have never felt uncomfortable around large numbers of Hispanics. Indeed, in my current line of work, I work with them a lot whenever I’m on customer site (I’m an automation/control system engineer).

    My personal observations are that most Hispanics are comparable to blue collar whites in terms of behavior and personality traits.

    Read More
    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "Mr. Unz’s experiences in the Bay Area parallel those of my own [sic]."

    Well, yeah. Mr. Unz's experiences are those of a wealthy Master of the Universe, for whom Hispanics work as compliant gardeners, maids &c.

    He never knew what it was like being a prole like me, growing up in Santa Fe, New Mexico, amongst the greasers & the gang-bangers, with "gringo," "joto" & "maricon" ever on their lips.
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  59. @Dahlia

    The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America’s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the “null hypothesis,” namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.

     

    As a Southerner, I'm pulling rank on all y'all here ;) We know our Blacks, Hispanics, and Rednecks... This is exactly correct that Hispanics are slightly more law-abiding than Southern Whites. Rednecks are rowdier than Hispanics, more likely to get into drunken fights and whatnot. My own redneck step-grandfather as an old man served time for manslaughter (self-defense, but he put himself in the situation by jawing off so just 2.5 years). Like Waylon Jennings once sang, "Just some good ol' boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law since the day they was born."

    Lower Class and under Blacks are a completely different class and I often get the sense that Steve and those out West just do not get *this* on that visceral, bone level.
    (I also wonder about the knowledge here among commenters about 19th century gangs in England and especially America as well as their effect on the body politic.
    The Irish immigrant gangs were much worse than anything we've experienced and the Know Nothing Party still had limited success.)

    It takes a fascist police force plus killer instincts among the rest of us to keep things tolerable here in Dixie. We don't get the luxury of being soft or enjoying the nicer things in life that New England has, especially those who are poorer. Hispanics may or may not litter a campground, but it won't stop anyone else from going. I cannot say the same for the public springs near here that were a favorite of kids because of the, ahem, not Hispanics.

    I don’t know, Dahlai. I’m also a Southerner, and I don’t see Hispanics making life better. They are easier to get along with than Blacks, but that’s not saying much.

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  60. Sean says:

    While this may all be correct, the behaviour of future masses of 2nd and 3rd generation Hispanic immigrants can’t be extrapolated from current trends with any confidence. The US murder rate fell precipitously among blacks with the reduction of the proportion of the population that was young (men). The effect of immigration is going to be in the opposite direction ie, a youth bulge. Quantity has a quality all of its own, and that is the essence of Hispanic immigration.

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  61. JJ says: • Website
    @Anonymous
    I believe it's a Hispanic surname. "Unz" like many other Hispanic surnames, ends with a "z".

    Ron Unz’s ethnic heritage is Israeli-Russian (Jewish).

    I think his analysis of the statistics is persuasive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    "Ron Unz’s ethnic heritage is Israeli-Russian (Jewish)"

    Israel now there's a country with open borders.
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  62. rod1963 says:
    @anonymous

    thanks to importations of 10 million illegal aliens from South of the border.
     
    They've been using that number without change for the past fifteen years as though nothing has happened since then. They've been coming and coming every year. Who knows what the actual number is by now, it's all underground and covered over. Anecdotally, people all across this country report the massive growth of the Hispanic population everywhere, in places they weren't in before, in public school systems, social service agencies, jails, etc. And don't leave out all the anchor children, beneficiaries of their parents illegal presence. Don't believe the bs number of illegals that they give out.

    I agree with everything you said.

    Undoubtedly it’s much higher and when you factor in all the anchor babies and their natural high birth rate they are breeding like mad. This is all kept out of the MSM.

    Of course it’s made easier for them because the government takes cares of their needs in the form of SNAP cards, SSI disability(you ought to see the local SS office – full of illegals who can’t speak a word of English applying), free medical, housing and education.

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  63. @Anonymous
    Exactly, Mexicans are terrific, but why on earth should they be brought en mass into the United States ...I just don't get it (?)

    Even from the perspective of Mexicans... Why uproot them from thier own nation

    If it's a humanitarian gesture, why not look for ways to assist in helping Mexico in running thier nation better.

    It's a very odd thing. The success of the U.S. Is really rooted to a large degree on its Anglo Saxon patrimony and political traditions, but it seems like there is a massive effort to destroy and discredit these traditions.

    But at the same time there is a flood Mexicans looking to come an take advantage of this success.

    They are really destroying everything they should be emulating.

    What magic does Texas or Southern California possess that Mexico doesn't? It seems like the same sort of soil?

    Let America keep its ethnic and cultural soul. Let Mexico do the same, there is no reason they can't be happy and successful in thier own nation.

    I suspect the crime stats are deeply flawed, as indicated by that fugitive page from Texas law enforcement.

    Leaving aside the crime issue, mass Hispanic immigration is a net zero or worse. All those hardworking sheetrock hangers and pine straw spreaders will be disabled by age 55. Four foot tall, muffin-topped Aztecas don’t outmarry, so they’ll be a permanent underclass just like in their homelands. They promulgate a ridiculous, juvenile culture. About the only plus is, as somebody mentioned, they are buffer zones for blacks.

    People make nations and cultures, not geographic coordinates. I like living in white America. If I wanted to live in Mexico, I’d move there.

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  64. Biff says:
    @bomag
    To paraphrase Biff:

    --My side is winning, to the point where we can just declare victory and mock the losers. That the arc of accomplishments by the civilized West is coming to an end doesn't bother me. I don't look that far ahead.--

    That the arc of accomplishments by the civilized West is coming to an end doesn’t bother me.

    Coercion via militarism? Yea, that one can go by the way of the Dodo…

    Read More
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  65. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Was this study commissioned by El Chapo?

    Read More
    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    "Was this study commissioned by El Chapo?"

    Best line so far.
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  66. I think Ron’s analysis of the statistics is persuasive, too, and none of the criticisms here of his statistical methods seem very weighty. However, I must say that it doesn’t seem true or accord with my own anecdotal experience. Like Ron, I lived in Queens, near Jackson Heights. When I was robbed at gunpoint, two cops, one black and one Puerto Rican, came to take my report. The black cop’s first question was, “The guy with the gun, was he black or was he Hispanic?” I laughed and asked, “Are those the only two choices?” He shrugged and said, “It is what it is.”

    On the other hand, it’s worth noting that the answer was “black,” so I wasn’t in fact a victim of Hispanic crime that time.

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "I think Ron’s analysis of the statistics is persuasive"

    That is a mistake. RKU's analysis of the statistics is only persuasive if you're taking him on trust instead of paying close attention.

    Take a look at the very first graph in the article. Do you see nothing wrong there?

    If you won't take it from me, would you take it from Jason Richwine?
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  67. J1234 says:

    From the article:

    Personal experiences are no substitute for detailed investigation, but they sometimes provide a useful reality check. Since the early 1990s, I’ve lived in Silicon Valley, a region in which people of white European ancestry are a relatively small minority, separately outnumbered by both Asians and Hispanics, with many of the latter quite poor and often here illegally. On any given day, more than half of the people I encounter in Palo Alto are Hispanics from immigrant backgrounds. Yet my area of the country has exceptionally low crime rates and virtually no serious ethnic conflict. This confounds the expectations of many of my East Coast friends.

    But let us explore white and Hispanic crime rates in a more systematic fashion, drawing our data from the FBI Uniform Crime Report.[9] Consider the five whitest cities in America: Colorado Springs, Colorado; Fort Wayne, Indiana; Portland, Oregon; Lexington, Kentucky; and Lincoln, Nebraska. These cities’ populations average 76 percent white, 9 percent Hispanic, and 8 percent black. Their crime rates are generally far below the national urban average, with less than half the homicide and robbery rates and a 30 percent lower violent-crime rate. Perhaps we can consider these figures as a reasonable approximation to the general “white urban crime rate.” These crime averages may be partly due to the local black and Hispanic populations, but since these cities are so overwhelmingly white, this estimate for the white crime rates is about as close as we can hope to get.

    And I’ve personally known two people who were murdered, randomly, by Hispanics or Hispanic gangs. ONE OF THEM IN LINCOLN, NEBRASKA. Haven’t known anyone murdered by whites.

    The problem with Ron Unz is that he believes these to be the only statistics that matters. I understand that he wants to set right some wrong impressions about Hispanic crime rates, and that’s good. But he needs to try to understand something himself. The high crime/murder rates in Mexico and the incredibly high murder rates in Central America (the highest in the world) mean something, too. A whole lot, in fact. He seems to be drawing (or implying) conclusions that are bigger than his evidence.

    Imbedded in his logic is another myth…the myth of people who immigrate to US being touched by some sort of magic wand when they cross the border and becoming just like all other Americans. As I’ve said in previous posts, Hondurans are the fastest growing segment of illegal immigration to the US, and Honduras has the highest murder rate in the world. No magic wand is going to change that. The implication that immigrants from Honduras won’t be any more inclined to violence than immigrants from, say, Finland or Norway, is kind of silly.

    Can’t find lots of news articles about Lincoln murders. In the articles I find, Hispanics are definitely overrepresented.

    http://www.1011now.com/home/headlines/One-man-Dead-in-Early-Morning-Shooting-211668671.html

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  68. @Anonymous
    Was this study commissioned by El Chapo?

    “Was this study commissioned by El Chapo?”

    Best line so far.

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  69. syonredux says:
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  70. rod1963 says:
    @Biff
    Just to paraphrase most of the comments:

    "No Unz! You’re just wrong, wrong WRONG!, In addition to that, I just can’t stand the sight of THEM!!"

    No, he’s trying to convince people who have direct and long term experience with Mexicans that they aren’t a blight on American society.

    Problem is they are a blight. They add nothing to our society except problems, many problems and are very costly. When there is enough of them here and they gain political power they will turn large parts of the U.S. into Mexico complete with drug cartel presence.

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  71. @Anonymous
    I believe it's a Hispanic surname. "Unz" like many other Hispanic surnames, ends with a "z".

    Unz is a Hispanic surname? Try Germanic. Don’t just make stuff up to suit your paranoia.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Gonzalez", "Ramirez", "Suarez", "Chavez", etc. Hispanic surnames such as "Unz" tend to end with a "z".
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  72. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Biff
    Just to paraphrase most of the comments:

    "No Unz! You’re just wrong, wrong WRONG!, In addition to that, I just can’t stand the sight of THEM!!"

    If mass immigration is skewed to young males then they will create a crime wave.

    It’s not complicated.

    The people who support mass immigration don’t care about all the white people who get raped and murdered during the high crime immigration phase as long as the end result after that phase is ok (for them).

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    • Replies: @Biff

    The people who support mass immigration don’t care about all the white people who get raped and murdered
     
    Am I supposed to care about white people getting raped and murdered? Am I supposed to care about the brown people getting bombed in Asia? Am I supposed to care about the Israelis or the Palestinians or the Israelis and the Palestinians? Am I supposed to care about the Tamil Tigers? Am I supposed to care about the Buddhists killing the Muslims in Myanmar? Why am I supposed to care about things I have no control over? Where is it written that I’m even supposed to care? Or is it better just to be a Nihilist?
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  73. Mr. Unz’s article depends on government statistics. Imagine, someone actually relying on statistics whose only real purposes are and always have been to merely to get politicians reelected.

    One only has to spend a little time in public schools for instance to discover just how fraudulent these reported statistics are.

    Under reporting of minority misbehavior in schools began in earnest way back in the Bill Clinton administration and continued through the immigrant friendly Bush the Younger regime. When Obama reached office this sort of under representation went on steroids because of the threats coming out of the office of Eric Holder in the Justice Department and the fear of accompanying and expensive lawsuits lodge against local school boards. There have been increasingly active attempts among school administrators to cover up the racial makeup of disruptive behavior. An example is that when first generation Spanish speaking Hispanics might be classified as being Hispanic, second generation Hispanic misbehavior is often “accidentally classified” as being white misbehavior simply because the perpetrators speak English.

    Misbehavior that used to warrant expulsions or at least suspensions such as assaults on school staff and students, particularly black on white assaults, are now longer punished in such ways. Offenders are either left in class to further disrupt in situations usually overseen by novice teachers or they are “punished” by placement in various “time out” settings within the school. These time “time out settings” are essentially jails, most often overseen by uniformed public or private police, within the school. By doing this the schools are no longer subject to reporting off campus suspensions and expulsion of minorities to government officials.

    A short review of crime statistics in Paris, France give us an indication of just how fraudulent crime statistics can be. If one were to review the statistics for the outlying Moroccan majority neighborhoods that ring Paris, one would get the impression that they are far safer than they actually are. What has happened is that the french police have actually given up on law enforcement in these areas and have essentially ceded control over to local warlords. The police (usually new recruits) might supposedly patrol these areas in their cars but this is a sham because they keep their eyes looking straight forward while doing so. When the situation in these neighborhoods became a little too out of control, the local police contact the local warlord and tell him to get him get the situation more subdued or he might just be arrested and replaced by a rival warlord who is better at maintaining order and hence not embarrassing the police Of course these local warlord don’t maintain any sort of statistic database so the criminal behavior essentially become invisible to all but them.

    The same situation occurs in minority neighborhoods in the US. Police, ever fearful or costly lawsuits, simply ignore low level street crime. Hookers and pushers on street corners in a place like Oakland, Ca, are not arrested. Instead police rely on “community outreach programs” wherein “recovering” gang members are used to correct the most aberrant behavior in exchange for various favors, financial and otherwise.

    Ferguson, Missouri is destined to be an area where whites simply disappear where upon “community outreach” programs take the place of actual police enforcement (just like in Detroit.)

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    "One only has to spend a little time in public schools for instance to discover just how fraudulent these reported statistics are."

    This.
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  74. Realist says:
    @Pincher Martin
    Well, Ron would say that Hispanics are not low IQ, but more like the Irish, and that any generation now we'll start seeing convergence.

    Then Ron would be wrong.

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  75. vinteuil says:

    This article spawned a lengthy online discussion, at the time.

    Unz doesn’t link to any of that. Could that be because he got totally pwned?

    Anybody who thinks that Unz’s statistics can be relied upon need only take a quick look at Fig. 1.

    Here’s how he explained his “method” in coming up with that absurd chart:

    “Since the BJS state+local incarceration data is unfortunately stratified neither by age nor gender, I was forced to develop a methodology to adjust these figures for the age and gender differences of the relevant ethnic populations…my approach was simply to divide the total number of inmates by the total high-crime-age male population for each ethnic group to produce an age-adjusted incarceration rate…”

    I mean, just think about that, a bit, and compare the results to reality. Admittedly, a lot of 18-29 year old blacks are incarcerated at any given time – but 28,000 out of 100,000?

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    • Replies: @vinteuil
    That said, the main weakness of Unz's piece is its constant reliance on apples-to-oranges comparisons. He finds some examples of heavily white cities with relatively high reported crime rates and some examples of heavily Hispanic cities with relative low reported crime rates. But so what? The real question is: what are the relative rates of criminality of whites & Hispanics *within each of these cities?*
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  76. e says:
    @Dahlia

    The evidence presented here powerfully refutes the widespread popular belief that America’s Hispanics have high crime rates. Instead, their criminality seems to fall near the center of the white national distribution, being somewhat higher than white New Englanders but somewhat lower than white Southerners. Taken as a whole, the mass of statistical evidence constitutes strong support for the “null hypothesis,” namely that Hispanics have approximately the same crime rates as whites of the same age.

     

    As a Southerner, I'm pulling rank on all y'all here ;) We know our Blacks, Hispanics, and Rednecks... This is exactly correct that Hispanics are slightly more law-abiding than Southern Whites. Rednecks are rowdier than Hispanics, more likely to get into drunken fights and whatnot. My own redneck step-grandfather as an old man served time for manslaughter (self-defense, but he put himself in the situation by jawing off so just 2.5 years). Like Waylon Jennings once sang, "Just some good ol' boys, never meaning no harm, beats all you never saw, been in trouble with the law since the day they was born."

    Lower Class and under Blacks are a completely different class and I often get the sense that Steve and those out West just do not get *this* on that visceral, bone level.
    (I also wonder about the knowledge here among commenters about 19th century gangs in England and especially America as well as their effect on the body politic.
    The Irish immigrant gangs were much worse than anything we've experienced and the Know Nothing Party still had limited success.)

    It takes a fascist police force plus killer instincts among the rest of us to keep things tolerable here in Dixie. We don't get the luxury of being soft or enjoying the nicer things in life that New England has, especially those who are poorer. Hispanics may or may not litter a campground, but it won't stop anyone else from going. I cannot say the same for the public springs near here that were a favorite of kids because of the, ahem, not Hispanics.

    Dahlia,

    Wish is were just litter (which is bad enough.)

    Here in CA, unless you live on the Coast, you see daily what the flood of Mexicans and Central Americans has done to this state on every level.

    I’ll take some good ole boys (who used to be quite common in the Central Valley where my sister lives–I live in the East Bay Area) any day.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    I live in a place referred to as "Little Tijuana".

    They do like to litter, unfortunately.

    Here are the new DOJ stats with Hispanics finally broken out for the first time along with good commentary by Jared Taylor from July 1st:
    http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/#.VZRyhIzJgao.twitter

    According to these figures, Hispanics are 26 percent more likely than whites to commit violent crimes. This calculation can now be made only because DOJ has finally released data about Hispanic offenders. If the department continues to collect data on Hispanic offenders it will also be possible to determine why Hispanic incarceration rates are higher than those for whites–whether they are caused by higher offence rates or by the fact that Hispanics are a younger population with a higher percentage in high-crime age groups.

     

    My big issue is that conservatives not discredit on themselves on Hispanic crime so that well-founded and important truths we tell about race and culture don't get dismissed.

    Here is the what I believe we all have to worry about and which scares me so: Our elites are repeating what they did starting in the 60s and are putting the criminals in charge. Jasper Spires, the murderer of the SJW Kevin Sutherland in Washington D.C., *owned* D.C. and acted accordingly. There has been in an uptick in violent crime everywhere. Here in the South, the liberals are trying their best to neuter us, displace us from being charge, just as they have done to themselves in their own cities.
    They do not see their folly and see resistance as evil.
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  77. vinteuil says:
    @vinteuil
    This article spawned a lengthy online discussion, at the time.

    Unz doesn't link to any of that. Could that be because he got totally pwned?

    Anybody who thinks that Unz's statistics can be relied upon need only take a quick look at Fig. 1.

    Here's how he explained his "method" in coming up with that absurd chart:

    "Since the BJS state+local incarceration data is unfortunately stratified neither by age nor gender, I was forced to develop a methodology to adjust these figures for the age and gender differences of the relevant ethnic populations...my approach was simply to divide the total number of inmates by the total high-crime-age male population for each ethnic group to produce an age-adjusted incarceration rate..."

    I mean, just think about that, a bit, and compare the results to reality. Admittedly, a lot of 18-29 year old blacks are incarcerated at any given time - but 28,000 out of 100,000?

    That said, the main weakness of Unz’s piece is its constant reliance on apples-to-oranges comparisons. He finds some examples of heavily white cities with relatively high reported crime rates and some examples of heavily Hispanic cities with relative low reported crime rates. But so what? The real question is: what are the relative rates of criminality of whites & Hispanics *within each of these cities?*

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  78. Realist says:
    @bomag
    Ron acknowledges this:

    Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. Therefore, indirect means must be used to estimate the crime rate of Hispanics compared to whites... One metric to examine might be relative incarceration rates, since most people who begin a life of criminal activity end up behind bars sooner or later—usually sooner. Furthermore, since so much of prison violence is along racial lines, correctional authorities are careful to record the ethnicity of individual inmates, and the aggregate data is made available annually by the Bureau of Justice Statistics.

    Depending on correction officials to "carefully to record the ethnicity of individual inmates" is a bit dicey in my experience. They are under the same PC pressures as the rest of the Cathedral drones.

    “Unfortunately, there’s a problem: Hispanic criminals are sometimes reported as “white” and sometimes not, rendering the federal crime data almost useless. ”

    This has been a problem for quite awhile.

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  79. Realist says:
    @fnn
    I'm against Mexican immigration because I hate littering and dog fighting. Here in Costa Rica dog fighting is a despised activity-though there is a lot of littering.

    “I hate littering and dog fighting. ”

    Dog fighting is big with blacks also….entertainment for low lifes.

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  80. Truth says:

    Hey Ron, do you and Fred ever double-date?

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  81. Realist says:
    @JJ
    Ron Unz's ethnic heritage is Israeli-Russian (Jewish).

    I think his analysis of the statistics is persuasive.

    “Ron Unz’s ethnic heritage is Israeli-Russian (Jewish)”

    Israel now there’s a country with open borders.

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  82. @C
    Can someone answer this question before I read this: Does Ron acknowledge that the classification of "Hispanics" varies greatly on a case by case basis? I.e. in my state, you can have two guys named Rodriguez who have committed murder and have the exact same (brown) skin tone and yet one guy will be labeled white and the other will be labelled Hispanic? Seriously, look up prisoners in your state and see what I mean. And that some states just lump Hispanics into the white group as a whole?

    Hispanic crime is nearly impossible to figure out because of discrepancies such as this.

    look up prisoners in your state

    I did this. It appears to me that the prisons are reporting ethnicity correctly.

    I checked the New York State Department of Corrections website. http://nysdoccslookup.doccs.ny.gov/kinqw00. It allows you to enter a name and generate a list of all prisoners with that name, showing the ethnicity of each. Because (as they say), Hispanics may be of any race, prisoners identified as Hispanic may be shown with a subclassification such as “Hispanic/White,” “Hispanic/Black,” “Hispanic/Native American” or “Hispanic/Other.” I found 89 prisoners named Juan Perez, of whom 88 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 34 cases) and 1 was classified as “White.” There were 49 named John, Johnny, Johnnie or Jonathan Perez, of whom 48 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 18 cases) and 1 as “Black.”

    I then checked the New York City Department of Corrections website. http://a073-ils-web.nyc.gov/inmatelookup/pages/common/find.jsf. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given name, but the list does not show ethnicity. To get that information, you need to click on each prisoner’s name individually. The NYC website seems to recognize only 4 ethnicities: White, Black, Asian and Other. There were 5 prisoners named Juan Perez or John Perez. All of them were listed as “Other.” Since that number was small, I did a spot check of 40 other prisoners with the surname, “Perez.” I found that 39 of them were classified as “Other” and one was classified as “Black.”

    I also checked the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website. http://offender.tdcj.texas.gov/OffenderSearch/index.jsp. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given surname and first initial, showing the ethnicity of each prisoner. I found 203 prisoners named “J. Perez,” of which 196 were “Hispanic,” 6 were “White” and 1 was “Indian.”

    The website of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation does not show information about ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx.

    However, the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department website does show ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx. There were 226 prisoners named “Juan Perez.” Every single one of them was classified as “Hispanic.” There were 72 prisoners named “John Perez.” All of them were also classified as “Hispanic.”

    By itself, this information doesn’t tell us anything about rates of criminality among Hispanics. But it certainly indicates that, at least in New York, Texas and California, prison officials are not playing politically correct games with classification. They are correctly identifying Hispanic prisoners as such.

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    The correct link for the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department: http://app4.lasd.org/iic/iverifysearch.cfm
    , @officious intermeddler
    A friend pointed out a problem with my methodology for New York City. In the other data bases, I used two names - Juan Perez and John Perez - in order to see whether an English-sounding first name would result in a prisoner named Perez being classified as non-Hispanic. With New York State, Texas and Los Angeles, there were many examples of both names and the answer was that the English-sounding name did not result in misreporting of ethnicity.

    With NYC, there weren't enough Juan and John Perezes to do that, so I spot-checked other Perezes. My friend points out that my selection wasn't random. I typed in various names - Luis, Rafael, Jose, etc - and checked classification of ethnicity for those names. However, the names that I chose were all stereotypically Hispanic and all were men's names. When he chose a truly random sample of 30 (Rodriguezes, rather than Perezes) he found that 21 were classified as Hispanic, 8 as White and 1 as Unknown. Men with English first names were generally classified as White and men with Spanish first names were generally classified as Other. Also, women were mostly classified as White, whether their first names were English or Spanish.

    One explanation of this could be deliberate massaging of numbers by prison officials. Another could just be a tendency of low-level admitting officers to accept female prisoners' self-classifications as white, to accept male prisoners' self-classification if their first name was English and to reject males' self-classification if their first name was Spanish.
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  83. vinteuil says:
    @officious intermeddler
    I think Ron's analysis of the statistics is persuasive, too, and none of the criticisms here of his statistical methods seem very weighty. However, I must say that it doesn't seem true or accord with my own anecdotal experience. Like Ron, I lived in Queens, near Jackson Heights. When I was robbed at gunpoint, two cops, one black and one Puerto Rican, came to take my report. The black cop's first question was, "The guy with the gun, was he black or was he Hispanic?" I laughed and asked, "Are those the only two choices?" He shrugged and said, "It is what it is."

    On the other hand, it's worth noting that the answer was "black," so I wasn't in fact a victim of Hispanic crime that time.

    “I think Ron’s analysis of the statistics is persuasive”

    That is a mistake. RKU’s analysis of the statistics is only persuasive if you’re taking him on trust instead of paying close attention.

    Take a look at the very first graph in the article. Do you see nothing wrong there?

    If you won’t take it from me, would you take it from Jason Richwine?

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    I should have said that the logic behind his manipulation of the data was persuasive to me. About the quality of his underlying data, I know nothing. The first graph surprised me, but I often learn surprising facts. That by itself doesn't invalidate his conclusions.

    I have read that Jason Richwine has attacked Ron Unz's source data. The articles mentioning his analysis are unclear about whether he also attacked Unz's logic. I haven't found a working link to his articles. Do you have one?
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  84. Realist says:

    Ron has sure drawn out a lot of his liberal buddies.

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  85. @OilcanFloyd
    I don't know about the charts, graphs and official records, but I do know that the town where I grew up is a far worse place now that hispanics make up a large part of the population. Hispanics run the drug trade, and they use real gangs to distribute, rather than local losers wishing to score with high school and college girls while they delay becoming adults for a few more years.

    When charts, graphs and official records don't reflect reality, I assume they are inaccurate and ignore them.

    “I don’t know about the charts, graphs and official records, but I do know that the town where I grew up is a far worse place now that hispanics make up a large part of the population.”

    I have exactly the same experience. I guess we are just two uninlightened cretins, who are to stupid to understand that we should believe statistics, not our own experiences. Statistics are reality.

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    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    "I have exactly the same experience. I guess we are just two uninlightened cretins, who are to stupid to understand that we should believe statistics, not our own experiences. Statistics are reality."

    I'd be curious to know what the stats are in my hometown these days. It's now a far worse place visually and in every other way. I read in the paper while visiting a few years back that one of the local elementary schools had a 75% student turnover the previous year, and that national gangs are now recruiting in the middle and high schools. I graduated high school with half of my kindergarten class (some of the others went to a neighboring high school) and getting caught chewing gum in class was a big deal for everyone but the stoners in high school. Bodies have been found in the woods where I used to safely play, and sirens blare at all hours now when I visit. It's pretty obvious to anyone still living in the area what has changed and why.
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  86. vinteuil says:
    @Abelard Lindsey
    Mr. Unz's experiences in the Bay Area parallel those of my own. I have never felt uncomfortable around large numbers of Hispanics. Indeed, in my current line of work, I work with them a lot whenever I'm on customer site (I'm an automation/control system engineer).

    My personal observations are that most Hispanics are comparable to blue collar whites in terms of behavior and personality traits.

    “Mr. Unz’s experiences in the Bay Area parallel those of my own [sic].”

    Well, yeah. Mr. Unz’s experiences are those of a wealthy Master of the Universe, for whom Hispanics work as compliant gardeners, maids &c.

    He never knew what it was like being a prole like me, growing up in Santa Fe, New Mexico, amongst the greasers & the gang-bangers, with “gringo,” “joto” & “maricon” ever on their lips.

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  87. As I have said in other comments, I am a guy from Spain (Europe) and I have lived in Central America for the last 15 years or so. I write from Central America right now. I lived one year in the States.

    I used to be one of those guys that believed in statistics, even if they were against common sense. Not anymore. As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

    No way white people has a criminal rate similar to that of Mexican and Central American people. NO WAY. I am in a country where everybody is scared about gangs, where the government signed a “truce” with gangs, where traditionally conflicts were resolved using guns, where some guys have died because they get drunk and they shoot each other, where some people disappear and nobody knows where they are (the brother of a friend of mine). Some years ago, one of my students appeared on the beach, his body dismembered. We never figured out what happened.

    Of course, it is not that bad if you know how to protect yourself and most people are nice people. But, a criminal rate like the white US people? Give me a break! People here has a tradition of solving conflicts with violence because the State has been historically weak.

    You could also give statistics proving than men and women have the same height on average. Who are you going to believe? Statistics or your lying eyes?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Of course, it is not that bad if you know how to protect yourself and most people are nice people. But, a criminal rate like the white US people? Give me a break! People here has a tradition of solving conflicts with violence because the State has been historically weak.
     
    I've watched a lot of video out of Mexico, Central America, South America. Every American needs to see the reality, the brutality, of life there. You will see a mob brutally beating a kid and dousing him with gasoline and burning him alive for the equivalent of a misdemeanor theft. And you'll see grandmothers in the crowd cheering. Shocking stuff and entirely alien (pun intended) to European civilized culture and certainly to my prosperous suburb of Boston. I see this stuff and then in my day-to-day life I will talk with upper-middle class, 30-ish yuppie mothers with a couple of above-average kids and she'll seem pained over the lack of diversity of her community and so anxious to promote greater NAM diversity. She and he (beta cognitive-elite husband) will support politics and social policies to bring this NAM diversity about. Not specifically to their neighborhood, but to the U.S. in general.
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  88. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Apolitical
    Unz is a Hispanic surname? Try Germanic. Don't just make stuff up to suit your paranoia.

    “Gonzalez”, “Ramirez”, “Suarez”, “Chavez”, etc. Hispanic surnames such as “Unz” tend to end with a “z”.

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  89. @officious intermeddler

    look up prisoners in your state
     
    I did this. It appears to me that the prisons are reporting ethnicity correctly.

    I checked the New York State Department of Corrections website. http://nysdoccslookup.doccs.ny.gov/kinqw00. It allows you to enter a name and generate a list of all prisoners with that name, showing the ethnicity of each. Because (as they say), Hispanics may be of any race, prisoners identified as Hispanic may be shown with a subclassification such as “Hispanic/White,” “Hispanic/Black,” “Hispanic/Native American” or “Hispanic/Other." I found 89 prisoners named Juan Perez, of whom 88 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 34 cases) and 1 was classified as “White.” There were 49 named John, Johnny, Johnnie or Jonathan Perez, of whom 48 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 18 cases) and 1 as “Black."

    I then checked the New York City Department of Corrections website. http://a073-ils-web.nyc.gov/inmatelookup/pages/common/find.jsf. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given name, but the list does not show ethnicity. To get that information, you need to click on each prisoner's name individually. The NYC website seems to recognize only 4 ethnicities: White, Black, Asian and Other. There were 5 prisoners named Juan Perez or John Perez. All of them were listed as “Other.” Since that number was small, I did a spot check of 40 other prisoners with the surname, “Perez." I found that 39 of them were classified as "Other" and one was classified as "Black."

    I also checked the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website. http://offender.tdcj.texas.gov/OffenderSearch/index.jsp. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given surname and first initial, showing the ethnicity of each prisoner. I found 203 prisoners named “J. Perez,” of which 196 were “Hispanic,” 6 were “White” and 1 was “Indian."

    The website of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation does not show information about ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx.

    However, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department website does show ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx. There were 226 prisoners named "Juan Perez.” Every single one of them was classified as "Hispanic." There were 72 prisoners named "John Perez." All of them were also classified as "Hispanic."

    By itself, this information doesn't tell us anything about rates of criminality among Hispanics. But it certainly indicates that, at least in New York, Texas and California, prison officials are not playing politically correct games with classification. They are correctly identifying Hispanic prisoners as such.

    The correct link for the Los Angeles County Sheriff’s Department: http://app4.lasd.org/iic/iverifysearch.cfm

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  90. vinteuil says:
    @rabbitbait
    Mr. Unz's article depends on government statistics. Imagine, someone actually relying on statistics whose only real purposes are and always have been to merely to get politicians reelected.

    One only has to spend a little time in public schools for instance to discover just how fraudulent these reported statistics are.

    Under reporting of minority misbehavior in schools began in earnest way back in the Bill Clinton administration and continued through the immigrant friendly Bush the Younger regime. When Obama reached office this sort of under representation went on steroids because of the threats coming out of the office of Eric Holder in the Justice Department and the fear of accompanying and expensive lawsuits lodge against local school boards. There have been increasingly active attempts among school administrators to cover up the racial makeup of disruptive behavior. An example is that when first generation Spanish speaking Hispanics might be classified as being Hispanic, second generation Hispanic misbehavior is often "accidentally classified" as being white misbehavior simply because the perpetrators speak English.

    Misbehavior that used to warrant expulsions or at least suspensions such as assaults on school staff and students, particularly black on white assaults, are now longer punished in such ways. Offenders are either left in class to further disrupt in situations usually overseen by novice teachers or they are "punished" by placement in various "time out" settings within the school. These time "time out settings" are essentially jails, most often overseen by uniformed public or private police, within the school. By doing this the schools are no longer subject to reporting off campus suspensions and expulsion of minorities to government officials.

    A short review of crime statistics in Paris, France give us an indication of just how fraudulent crime statistics can be. If one were to review the statistics for the outlying Moroccan majority neighborhoods that ring Paris, one would get the impression that they are far safer than they actually are. What has happened is that the french police have actually given up on law enforcement in these areas and have essentially ceded control over to local warlords. The police (usually new recruits) might supposedly patrol these areas in their cars but this is a sham because they keep their eyes looking straight forward while doing so. When the situation in these neighborhoods became a little too out of control, the local police contact the local warlord and tell him to get him get the situation more subdued or he might just be arrested and replaced by a rival warlord who is better at maintaining order and hence not embarrassing the police Of course these local warlord don't maintain any sort of statistic database so the criminal behavior essentially become invisible to all but them.

    The same situation occurs in minority neighborhoods in the US. Police, ever fearful or costly lawsuits, simply ignore low level street crime. Hookers and pushers on street corners in a place like Oakland, Ca, are not arrested. Instead police rely on "community outreach programs" wherein "recovering" gang members are used to correct the most aberrant behavior in exchange for various favors, financial and otherwise.

    Ferguson, Missouri is destined to be an area where whites simply disappear where upon "community outreach" programs take the place of actual police enforcement (just like in Detroit.)

    “One only has to spend a little time in public schools for instance to discover just how fraudulent these reported statistics are.”

    This.

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  91. Dahlia says:
    @e
    Dahlia,

    Wish is were just litter (which is bad enough.)

    Here in CA, unless you live on the Coast, you see daily what the flood of Mexicans and Central Americans has done to this state on every level.

    I'll take some good ole boys (who used to be quite common in the Central Valley where my sister lives--I live in the East Bay Area) any day.

    I live in a place referred to as “Little Tijuana”.

    They do like to litter, unfortunately.

    Here are the new DOJ stats with Hispanics finally broken out for the first time along with good commentary by Jared Taylor from July 1st:

    http://www.amren.com/news/2015/07/new-doj-statistics-on-race-and-violent-crime/#.VZRyhIzJgao.twitter

    According to these figures, Hispanics are 26 percent more likely than whites to commit violent crimes. This calculation can now be made only because DOJ has finally released data about Hispanic offenders. If the department continues to collect data on Hispanic offenders it will also be possible to determine why Hispanic incarceration rates are higher than those for whites–whether they are caused by higher offence rates or by the fact that Hispanics are a younger population with a higher percentage in high-crime age groups.

    My big issue is that conservatives not discredit on themselves on Hispanic crime so that well-founded and important truths we tell about race and culture don’t get dismissed.

    Here is the what I believe we all have to worry about and which scares me so: Our elites are repeating what they did starting in the 60s and are putting the criminals in charge. Jasper Spires, the murderer of the SJW Kevin Sutherland in Washington D.C., *owned* D.C. and acted accordingly. There has been in an uptick in violent crime everywhere. Here in the South, the liberals are trying their best to neuter us, displace us from being charge, just as they have done to themselves in their own cities.
    They do not see their folly and see resistance as evil.

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  92. @vinteuil
    "I think Ron’s analysis of the statistics is persuasive"

    That is a mistake. RKU's analysis of the statistics is only persuasive if you're taking him on trust instead of paying close attention.

    Take a look at the very first graph in the article. Do you see nothing wrong there?

    If you won't take it from me, would you take it from Jason Richwine?

    I should have said that the logic behind his manipulation of the data was persuasive to me. About the quality of his underlying data, I know nothing. The first graph surprised me, but I often learn surprising facts. That by itself doesn’t invalidate his conclusions.

    I have read that Jason Richwine has attacked Ron Unz’s source data. The articles mentioning his analysis are unclear about whether he also attacked Unz’s logic. I haven’t found a working link to his articles. Do you have one?

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  93. @officious intermeddler

    look up prisoners in your state
     
    I did this. It appears to me that the prisons are reporting ethnicity correctly.

    I checked the New York State Department of Corrections website. http://nysdoccslookup.doccs.ny.gov/kinqw00. It allows you to enter a name and generate a list of all prisoners with that name, showing the ethnicity of each. Because (as they say), Hispanics may be of any race, prisoners identified as Hispanic may be shown with a subclassification such as “Hispanic/White,” “Hispanic/Black,” “Hispanic/Native American” or “Hispanic/Other." I found 89 prisoners named Juan Perez, of whom 88 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 34 cases) and 1 was classified as “White.” There were 49 named John, Johnny, Johnnie or Jonathan Perez, of whom 48 were classified as “Hispanic” (with a subclassification added in 18 cases) and 1 as “Black."

    I then checked the New York City Department of Corrections website. http://a073-ils-web.nyc.gov/inmatelookup/pages/common/find.jsf. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given name, but the list does not show ethnicity. To get that information, you need to click on each prisoner's name individually. The NYC website seems to recognize only 4 ethnicities: White, Black, Asian and Other. There were 5 prisoners named Juan Perez or John Perez. All of them were listed as “Other.” Since that number was small, I did a spot check of 40 other prisoners with the surname, “Perez." I found that 39 of them were classified as "Other" and one was classified as "Black."

    I also checked the Texas Department of Criminal Justice website. http://offender.tdcj.texas.gov/OffenderSearch/index.jsp. That website generates a list of all prisoners with a given surname and first initial, showing the ethnicity of each prisoner. I found 203 prisoners named “J. Perez,” of which 196 were “Hispanic,” 6 were “White” and 1 was “Indian."

    The website of the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation does not show information about ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx.

    However, the Los Angeles County Sheriff's Department website does show ethnicity. http://inmatelocator.cdcr.ca.gov/search.aspx. There were 226 prisoners named "Juan Perez.” Every single one of them was classified as "Hispanic." There were 72 prisoners named "John Perez." All of them were also classified as "Hispanic."

    By itself, this information doesn't tell us anything about rates of criminality among Hispanics. But it certainly indicates that, at least in New York, Texas and California, prison officials are not playing politically correct games with classification. They are correctly identifying Hispanic prisoners as such.

    A friend pointed out a problem with my methodology for New York City. In the other data bases, I used two names – Juan Perez and John Perez – in order to see whether an English-sounding first name would result in a prisoner named Perez being classified as non-Hispanic. With New York State, Texas and Los Angeles, there were many examples of both names and the answer was that the English-sounding name did not result in misreporting of ethnicity.

    With NYC, there weren’t enough Juan and John Perezes to do that, so I spot-checked other Perezes. My friend points out that my selection wasn’t random. I typed in various names – Luis, Rafael, Jose, etc – and checked classification of ethnicity for those names. However, the names that I chose were all stereotypically Hispanic and all were men’s names. When he chose a truly random sample of 30 (Rodriguezes, rather than Perezes) he found that 21 were classified as Hispanic, 8 as White and 1 as Unknown. Men with English first names were generally classified as White and men with Spanish first names were generally classified as Other. Also, women were mostly classified as White, whether their first names were English or Spanish.

    One explanation of this could be deliberate massaging of numbers by prison officials. Another could just be a tendency of low-level admitting officers to accept female prisoners’ self-classifications as white, to accept male prisoners’ self-classification if their first name was English and to reject males’ self-classification if their first name was Spanish.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    How was Charlie Sheen classified, the last time that he beat up one of his wives or girlfriends, during one of his many drug-and-alcohol-fueled binges?

    "Hispanic" is a government-coined term-of-art, referring to a cultural "ethnicity" related to the Spanish language. It is not a race, as the U.S. Census itself carefully explains. Most Hispanics in the United States officially claim to be white, racially, even though most of them are mestizos, and many of them are simply Amerindians; most of the others claim their national origin or extraction (e.g., Mexican) as their "race."

    Look at the Texas most-wanted list, and tell me how they are not fudging the demographic data....
    , @Lot
    I did the same sort of check five years ago in San Diego, and about 40% of Hispanic surnamed people were classified as white.

    When I checked again just now, this no longer seems to be the case. I typed in random common Spanish surnames, and less than 5% were white.

    However, if you look here:

    http://apps.ocfl.net/bailbond/Default.asp

    and type in a common Spanish name, about 90% of the results will be white, even for dark mestizos. They have no Hispanic category at all.

    For Orange Co, CA, they have a category called "Mexican-Latin American" and most all Spanish surnames are under this category.

    In summary, based on your searches and mine, this issue is slowly resolving itself, but the more accurate local data is going to take a while to get aggregated into national statistics.
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  94. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @imnobody00
    As I have said in other comments, I am a guy from Spain (Europe) and I have lived in Central America for the last 15 years or so. I write from Central America right now. I lived one year in the States.

    I used to be one of those guys that believed in statistics, even if they were against common sense. Not anymore. As Mark Twain said, there are lies, damned lies and statistics.

    No way white people has a criminal rate similar to that of Mexican and Central American people. NO WAY. I am in a country where everybody is scared about gangs, where the government signed a "truce" with gangs, where traditionally conflicts were resolved using guns, where some guys have died because they get drunk and they shoot each other, where some people disappear and nobody knows where they are (the brother of a friend of mine). Some years ago, one of my students appeared on the beach, his body dismembered. We never figured out what happened.

    Of course, it is not that bad if you know how to protect yourself and most people are nice people. But, a criminal rate like the white US people? Give me a break! People here has a tradition of solving conflicts with violence because the State has been historically weak.

    You could also give statistics proving than men and women have the same height on average. Who are you going to believe? Statistics or your lying eyes?

    Of course, it is not that bad if you know how to protect yourself and most people are nice people. But, a criminal rate like the white US people? Give me a break! People here has a tradition of solving conflicts with violence because the State has been historically weak.

    I’ve watched a lot of video out of Mexico, Central America, South America. Every American needs to see the reality, the brutality, of life there. You will see a mob brutally beating a kid and dousing him with gasoline and burning him alive for the equivalent of a misdemeanor theft. And you’ll see grandmothers in the crowd cheering. Shocking stuff and entirely alien (pun intended) to European civilized culture and certainly to my prosperous suburb of Boston. I see this stuff and then in my day-to-day life I will talk with upper-middle class, 30-ish yuppie mothers with a couple of above-average kids and she’ll seem pained over the lack of diversity of her community and so anxious to promote greater NAM diversity. She and he (beta cognitive-elite husband) will support politics and social policies to bring this NAM diversity about. Not specifically to their neighborhood, but to the U.S. in general.

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  95. They tend to end in -ez so Unz is not a Spanish name.

    - ez initially meant “son of” but now it’s only part of the last name.

    - “Pérez” (son of “Pero”, old version of “Pedro”, Spanish for “Peter”).

    - “González” (son of Gonzalo)

    - “Martínez” (son of Martín).

    “Un” is not a first name and “z” is not a last name suffix. “Unz” is not a Spanish name, at all.

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  96. Ron

    What gives with the Name for posting? Having been Bob all my life and for as long as Unz Review has been around I am now told Bob is someone else and I have to be someone else to post here. In a world where Summers, the Derb, and Hunt can get taken down in a SJW hate storm a little anonymity seems well advised for a working stiff like me. I have to answer to my International employer for any kind of perceived hate thought I might express as my annual diversity training reminds me.

    [Although we had always encouraged commenters to select somewhat distinctive handles, there has been a growing problem of multiple commenters using the same simple name, which potentially causes a great deal of confusion. Therefore, a couple of weeks ago we implemented a subsystem that attempts to prevent this, and I'd assume that "Bob" was automatically assigned to a more prolific recent commenter. If you're agreeable, we can assign you the new handle "Bob1" and attempt to reassign most or all of your old comments to it.]

    Even if we accept parity criminality it doesn’t change the fact that vast numbers of those young men and somewhat lesser numbers of women, children, and oldsters have abused us by being here when they have no right to be. We are not wrong to resent ALL the crime of people who have no right to be here regardless of the rate they commit it at. How is it going selling this idea of parity criminality over on West Hunter?

    To the vast majority of illegals that are just doing what it takes to look after their families I extend my sympathy they have a hard road. For the Republican moneyed interest that sees cheap labor (direct & indirect), and the Democratic interest that see future secure voters I have none. Instead for the later despicable duo I have a slow burning rage.

    Thanks
    Bob

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    • Replies: @Bob who can be any Bob
    Thanks for the offer, but please don’t feel the need. Who would want to be tied to the thoughts of a cretin like that Bob.
    , @Anonymous
    How about 'Robert'?
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  97. Fred K says:
    @philip gahtan
    are these fellas white or hispanic
    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    Obviously white. Also, I once unknowingly swam in shark infested waters and was not attacked. I therefore conclude that sharks pose no danger to humans whatsoever.

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  98. D. K. says:
    @officious intermeddler
    A friend pointed out a problem with my methodology for New York City. In the other data bases, I used two names - Juan Perez and John Perez - in order to see whether an English-sounding first name would result in a prisoner named Perez being classified as non-Hispanic. With New York State, Texas and Los Angeles, there were many examples of both names and the answer was that the English-sounding name did not result in misreporting of ethnicity.

    With NYC, there weren't enough Juan and John Perezes to do that, so I spot-checked other Perezes. My friend points out that my selection wasn't random. I typed in various names - Luis, Rafael, Jose, etc - and checked classification of ethnicity for those names. However, the names that I chose were all stereotypically Hispanic and all were men's names. When he chose a truly random sample of 30 (Rodriguezes, rather than Perezes) he found that 21 were classified as Hispanic, 8 as White and 1 as Unknown. Men with English first names were generally classified as White and men with Spanish first names were generally classified as Other. Also, women were mostly classified as White, whether their first names were English or Spanish.

    One explanation of this could be deliberate massaging of numbers by prison officials. Another could just be a tendency of low-level admitting officers to accept female prisoners' self-classifications as white, to accept male prisoners' self-classification if their first name was English and to reject males' self-classification if their first name was Spanish.

    How was Charlie Sheen classified, the last time that he beat up one of his wives or girlfriends, during one of his many drug-and-alcohol-fueled binges?

    “Hispanic” is a government-coined term-of-art, referring to a cultural “ethnicity” related to the Spanish language. It is not a race, as the U.S. Census itself carefully explains. Most Hispanics in the United States officially claim to be white, racially, even though most of them are mestizos, and many of them are simply Amerindians; most of the others claim their national origin or extraction (e.g., Mexican) as their “race.”

    Look at the Texas most-wanted list, and tell me how they are not fudging the demographic data….

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    We're talking about the prison data that Ron Unz used and whether that has been fudged. In Texas, it appears not to have been. He didn't use most wanted list data.
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  99. Fred K says:
    @Joe Webb
    "by matching the geographical distribution of crime with census data on Hispanic population percentages, we can gain strong circumstantial evidence about the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites."
    and, "admittedly, all of the arguments presented here are somewhat statistical and circumstantial."

    Back in 2005 or so I did two reports on San Mateo Co. and Santa Clara Co (home of Palo Alto, etc).

    I found the Hispanic crime rate around 3 plus times higher than White crime while the black crime was off the charts...values like 30 and 35 times higher for rape and robbery. However, these counties are almost without White working class folks, their having been driven out by low-wage mexicans.

    So, my numbers are only true for these counties. Additionally, the local news runs about 15 to 1 in crime rates...with Whites being 1 vs. mexicans at 15. They also excel at sex crime like child molesting, while blacks don't do that, they prefer raping women to children. Blacks are almost gone from around here but when they show up for crime, like a recent home invasion in Palo Alto...well, that is where the 30 to 1 figures come in.

    Redwood City is commonly reported now to be about 40 % mexican. Redwood City is the county seat of San Mateo Co. We are building a new jail to house mexicans. If you go into the courts in Redwood City, it is wall to wall mexicans in the halls. The only Whites appear to be lawyers.

    My personal experience with mexicans is ok...in cafes, stores, etc. They are almost always polite and deferential...a sign of their collectivism and need for a patron, as well as their friendly nature, at least for the time being while they lack political clout....sort of , as they now or will soon outnumber Whites.

    Here is the problem. Like Ron, I too used State of California, DoJ statistics and the US census data from year 2000. I do not believe that the census data is accurate. Realistically, with , say, half the mexicans being illegal, there is every incentive to underreport numbers, especially when 2 or more families are in the same house or apartment.(which itself violates local health codes. When I called the Health Dept with this and a question about sewer rates being a giveaway to houses packed with mexicans, the response I got was; "what do you want, us to be Gestapos?," Television.

    A possible way out of this numbers problem is to look at all Hispanic schools, both for calculating the number of crime age young males, but also for a possibly very rewarding discovery of how Mexicans behave in the school, compared to Whites or Blacks. This latter suggestion could be considered a proxy for real crime rates, since like White or Black bad school behavior, Mexican bad behavior could be linked up with undistorted census numbers of Blacks and Whites.

    Thus if school A was all White, and school B was almost all Black, and the schools were then scored for their numbers of incidents of bad behavior, those scores could be correlated with crime numbers reported by States (not the Feds per their shall we say, impaired methodology that vastly under-reports Hispanic crime.) on White vs. Black crime. This would be a simple computation

    Then , like a rudimentary algebra, the putative real crime rate of Mexicans could be intelligently guessed. This would thereby avoid the vagaries of census data on Mexicans.

    When I did my crime reports a few years ago, I noted that the biggest problem was exactly how many crime age Mexicans there actually were. I did not know and neither did anybody else that I called. Of course, the schools did not want to talk about it, etc. I also stated, in all fairness, that the mexican local crime age demographic might be larger than the White. I could not get that info either, all of which leads me to suspect a Mexican and a liberal in the woodpile.

    Joe Webb

    Mexico vs Finland (overwhelmingly white)

    Homicides:

    Mexico, 21.5 per 100,000 people.
    Finland, 1.6 per 100,000 people.

    Source

    http://country-facts.findthedata.com/compare/2-94/Mexico-vs-Finland:

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  100. M_Young says:

    ““Un” is not a first name and “z” is not a last name suffix. “Unz” is not a Spanish name, at all.”

    Un(e)z, son of none.

    PS you forget Cartmenez, hijo del carretero.

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  101. @D. K.
    How was Charlie Sheen classified, the last time that he beat up one of his wives or girlfriends, during one of his many drug-and-alcohol-fueled binges?

    "Hispanic" is a government-coined term-of-art, referring to a cultural "ethnicity" related to the Spanish language. It is not a race, as the U.S. Census itself carefully explains. Most Hispanics in the United States officially claim to be white, racially, even though most of them are mestizos, and many of them are simply Amerindians; most of the others claim their national origin or extraction (e.g., Mexican) as their "race."

    Look at the Texas most-wanted list, and tell me how they are not fudging the demographic data....

    We’re talking about the prison data that Ron Unz used and whether that has been fudged. In Texas, it appears not to have been. He didn’t use most wanted list data.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California's criminal-justice authorities classify him? How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?
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  102. D. K. says:
    @officious intermeddler
    We're talking about the prison data that Ron Unz used and whether that has been fudged. In Texas, it appears not to have been. He didn't use most wanted list data.

    Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California’s criminal-justice authorities classify him? How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California’s criminal-justice authorities classify him?"

    Charlie Sheen's paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen's mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Sheen
    , @officious intermeddler
    Is immigration of Hispanics a good idea? My own view is that it is not. I think allowing massive Hispanic immigration into the United States has been a mistake. I am in favor of restricting further Hispanic immigration.

    But that is not the question I was answering in my previous posts. Several commenters here have stated, as if it were a known fact, that prison authorities are fudging the data by classifying Hispanic prisoners as white. I've read similar accusations by several conservative writers whom I admire. One commenter said, "Check it out for your own state." So I did. For my home state of New York, I did a quick check and found, somewhat to my surprise, that prison officials here appear not to be doing that. I also checked California or Texas, the two states with the largest Hispanic populations, and found that prison officials there also appear to be playing it straight.

    How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?
     
    It didn't try to. My "methodology," if you want to call it that, was as I described in my earlier posts. Since you asked, though, I just now checked inmates with the English surname, "Smith," in the New York State data base. Of the first 100, excluding duplicate names with the same birthday (who I assumed to be the same person), 2 were classified as Unknown, 7 as Hispanic, 16 as White and 75 as Black. Out of curiosity, I also checked, "Zimmerman." I got tired after the first 25 prisoners, but of that number, 2 were classified as Hispanic, 10 as White and 13 as Black. Because I expect that the names Smith and Zimmerman are rare among Hispanics, these results suggest to me, again, that New York State prison authorities are not fudging their numbers.

    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named "J Smith," 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were "James Christopher Smith," "James R. Smith," "Jeffery Jordan Smith," "Jerry L. Smith" and "Jonathan Smith," so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding. There were no prisoners named "Juan Smith" or "Jose Smith." Similarly, in Los Angeles, there were 119 prisoners named "John Smith," and 5 of them were Hispanic.

    I don't know whether the numbers support Unz's conclusions, but I don't see any reason to think the numbers are fudged. If someone believes otherwise, he can do his own check, using any methodology that he thinks is better.
    , @Nico
    The obvious problem with any analysis of numbers on the term "Hispanic" is that the troublemakers (excepting perhaps certain Argentine and Brazilian Mafiosi) seem to be very largely of mestizo and mulatto and/or Indian and black stock. These are the groups most people on here object to, and there is no way to count or identify these ones reliably apart from having a third-party census observer tally them up visually due to the longstanding Latin American tradition of obfuscating one's Indian and black lineage even in the face of clear phenotypical evidence to the contrary of one's claims.

    I for one would be thrilled to see the "Hispanic/Latino" category busted up and its members assigned to their respective racial categories in any such studies, but in the present circumstances I am well aware that this would only serve to create a skewed picture of "whites," as the photos of the 10 Most Wanted Fugitives in Texas make abundantly clear.
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  103. Fred K says:

    Now wait a minute, a definite trend is emerging here:

    Mexico vs Poland (99% white)

    Mexico, 21.5 homicides per 100,000 people.
    Poland, 1.2 homicides per 100,000 people.

    In fact, when compared to every all white country, Mexico has a much higher crime index.
    Gee. Who’d a thunk it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @J1234

    In fact, when compared to every all white country, Mexico has a much higher crime index.
     
    Yes, I'm not reading through all of Unz's stuff, because - from what I can tell - he seems to ignore international statistics regarding crime, and seems to go along with the mythology that the US has a calming effect on third world immigrants who come here. I'm also ignoring it because he went out looking for stats to validate a political viewpoint, and came up with this stuff.


    https://www.youtube.com/wat
    ch?v=TFw5fQZJlU8

    Yes, he makes several good points, but falls short.
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  104. @Bob who is still Bob
    Ron

    What gives with the Name for posting? Having been Bob all my life and for as long as Unz Review has been around I am now told Bob is someone else and I have to be someone else to post here. In a world where Summers, the Derb, and Hunt can get taken down in a SJW hate storm a little anonymity seems well advised for a working stiff like me. I have to answer to my International employer for any kind of perceived hate thought I might express as my annual diversity training reminds me.

    [Although we had always encouraged commenters to select somewhat distinctive handles, there has been a growing problem of multiple commenters using the same simple name, which potentially causes a great deal of confusion. Therefore, a couple of weeks ago we implemented a subsystem that attempts to prevent this, and I'd assume that "Bob" was automatically assigned to a more prolific recent commenter. If you're agreeable, we can assign you the new handle "Bob1" and attempt to reassign most or all of your old comments to it.]



    Even if we accept parity criminality it doesn’t change the fact that vast numbers of those young men and somewhat lesser numbers of women, children, and oldsters have abused us by being here when they have no right to be. We are not wrong to resent ALL the crime of people who have no right to be here regardless of the rate they commit it at. How is it going selling this idea of parity criminality over on West Hunter?

    To the vast majority of illegals that are just doing what it takes to look after their families I extend my sympathy they have a hard road. For the Republican moneyed interest that sees cheap labor (direct & indirect), and the Democratic interest that see future secure voters I have none. Instead for the later despicable duo I have a slow burning rage.

    Thanks
    Bob

    Thanks for the offer, but please don’t feel the need. Who would want to be tied to the thoughts of a cretin like that Bob.

    Read More
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  105. Fred K says:

    Ron is Jewish. What difference does that make? If his facts are correct that is all that matters. However, like I said, comparing crime rates of Mexico to countries whose populations are upwards of 95% white tells a different story than what is presented here. It is as most of us would expect — Mexicans commit much more crime.

    Read More
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  106. fnn says:

    The stats don’t matter given that there’s quite obviously a large, nasty and very powerful criminal element in the Mexican population. No doubt it’s a small percentage of the total, but it’s big enough to cause a lot of trouble. So I think it’s time for the US to say that it already has enough Mexicans.

    Read More
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  107. Oldvannes says:

    Crime aside, what about the affect upon our Anglo Saxon European culture? When you were born, Ron, the number of people checking off the box/line for “race – color” Latino or Brown was around 1 million. Today it is around 50 million. When is enough enough?

    Read More
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  108. Biff says:
    @anon
    If mass immigration is skewed to young males then they will create a crime wave.

    It's not complicated.

    The people who support mass immigration don't care about all the white people who get raped and murdered during the high crime immigration phase as long as the end result after that phase is ok (for them).

    The people who support mass immigration don’t care about all the white people who get raped and murdered

    Am I supposed to care about white people getting raped and murdered? Am I supposed to care about the brown people getting bombed in Asia? Am I supposed to care about the Israelis or the Palestinians or the Israelis and the Palestinians? Am I supposed to care about the Tamil Tigers? Am I supposed to care about the Buddhists killing the Muslims in Myanmar? Why am I supposed to care about things I have no control over? Where is it written that I’m even supposed to care? Or is it better just to be a Nihilist?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    Raw nerve?

    Mass immigration, especially illegal, is skewed to young males. This gets lots of people raped and killed who otherwise wouldn't have been.

    If you support it you're an accessory.
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  109. The reason this column exists is because Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass. Apparently he was so ass hurt about it he felt the need to run to spergoid “Baffle em with bullshit” style autist reasoning.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Realist
    After reviewing some of Steve's past columns it would appear that Steve does not agree with Ron on the subject of Mexican IQ
    , @officious intermeddler

    Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass.
     
    Unz must be an awfully nice guy. If I owned the website, as he does, I'd be more inclined to shut down the thread than to allow myself to be chased off it.
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  110. Ron Unz says:

    Well, I’m quite gratified at the overwhelming response to my republished Hispanic Crime article, and it’s also nice to see that nothing much has changed, and the participants seem about 95% hostile, just like they originally were back in 2010. I’m unfortunately too preoccupied with my software work right now to closely review the comments, let alone respond to them individually, but I thought I should provide a few more things.

    During that extended 2010 debate, many dozens of lengthy critiques of my analysis were published all around the internet, and I addressed the points they raised in a long series of follow-up columns, which also contained links to all those attacks. Indeed, one of those—”A Guide to the Debate”—provided a round-up of everything said on the subject. All of this material is conveniently linked just below the bottom of my article, so any of you who find my 5,700 word article leaves you with a unsatisfied appetite for “more” can easily access another 100,000 words of harsh attacks and 10,000 words of my rejoinders.

    Also, in my brief introduction, I’d suggested that various types of additional data has subsequently come out supporting my conclusions, but had neglected to mention them. Here are a few of the examples:

    (1) During the 2010 debate, I discovered that PPIC, California’s leading non-partisan policy thinktank, had gained access to the exact demographics of CA’s prison population and performed an age-adjusted ethnic analysis, fairly similar to my own (they apparently used a somewhat different age-adjustment methodology). Not only does California’s huge Hispanic population dwarf that of any other state, but the long history of severe prison violence stark along ethnic/racial lines means CA probably constitutes the “Gold standard” for correctly classifying prison inmates. Here’s the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you’ll notice looks pretty similar to my own:

    http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_806ABCC.pdf#page=5

    (2) One of the most renowned racialist bloggers in quantative matters styles himself “La Griffe du Lion,” and he had always claimed that his calculations proved that Hispanics had many times the crime rates of whites. When I once or twice raised questions about his methodology, he rudely dismissed my doubts in an insulting fashion.

    Then in 2012, he published a major article analyzing the criminality of whites and Hispanics using a new and far more sophisticated methodology somewhat similar to my own, and found that the two groups indeed had approximately similar crime rates:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-hispanic-crime-a-postscript/

    (3) Most recently, Heather Mac Donald managed to obtain the Justice Department data showing the actual breakdown of U.S. white and Hispanic criminal suspects as identified by their victims, previously hidden data which had for many years been the subject of angry speculation. As it happens, the data seems to be almost precisely what I had predicted using the indirect methods I was forced to use in my article:

    http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/07/01/justice_departments_hidden_race_data.html

    (4) A week or two ago, when I had a little more time, I actively participated in a lengthy debate on this same Hispanic Crime topic in a different thread. So you might want to take a look at my responses there:

    http://www.unz.com/forum/violent-crime-drops-again-in-california/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     
    , @Lot

    If we normalize the incarceration rate to the number of males aged 15-34, California Hispanics are imprisoned at 9 percent above the local white rate ... Here’s the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you’ll notice looks pretty similar to my own:
     
    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.

    That's pretty significant if you ask me. And it would be an even bigger gap if it were not for the fact that victims of Latino crimes are less likely to report the perp to the police because of police distrust and/or fear of deportation.

    What's the true gap? 50% higher? 70% higher?
    , @Alex M
    "Conservatives" convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn't even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can't be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
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  111. @D. K.
    Let us pretend, purely for the sake of argument, that Mr. Unz' controversial hypothesis is correct.

    So what?!?

    We are not importing Latin Americans-- legally and, especially, illegally-- who otherwise match the demographics of White Americans; nor shall we ever!

    The salient issue is not what Hispanic immigrants would be like, crime-wise, if they otherwise matched the demographics of White America. The salient issue (inter alia!) is whether Hispanic immigrants, as they actually are, raise or lower the crime rates in America.

    Hispanic immigrants tend to be disproportionately male. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be young adults. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poor. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be unskilled. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be (Third World) rural folk migrating to urban locations in our (First World) country. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poorly educated. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be stupid. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    What do you think, Mr. Unz? Or, should we submit the overarching salient question to Marilyn vos Savant at "Parade" magazine?!?

    Ultimately, as the ever-popular and world-famous Ms Coulter asks: Is it good for those already here?

    Read More
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  112. @philip gahtan
    are these fellas white or hispanic
    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    I look at these 10 most wanted, and, from the names, it’s obvious that 9 of the 10 are Hispanic.

    I look at the demographics of Texas, and I find that the proportion of the population that is Hispanic is 34%.

    I consult my handy-dandy binomial distribution calculator, and I find that the probability of such an outcome by chance, assuming equal rates of really, really bad criminal perpetration, is 0.0004007. That is, basically impossible.

    In fact, just to wring some further numbers out of this sample, Hispanics would have to commit at least 61% of these sorts of crimes in order for the probability that 9 out of 10 would turn up on this list would be Hispanic to be p=.05. But at that rate, using the simplified assumption that everyone in Texas was either white or Hispanic, Hispanics would be committing these crimes at a rate of (.61/.34)/(.39/.66)=3.0 times that of whites. Now of course this sample is massively underpowered, so that it may very reasonably be a much higher number (in fact, of course, the most probable number would be a rate of over 10 times that of whites) — but it’s striking how much even such a tiny and underpowered sample seems to imply.

    While of course this example is rather cherry picked, the real problem is that we seem to encounter so many of these sorts of examples when we look at police logs, etc.

    And of course the real virtue of examples like this is that it is we ourselves who can effectively decide who fits which category, based, for example, on obvious ethnic characteristics of names. We don’t have to go through the plainly and deliberately distorted filter of governmental statistics.

    We can believe, in this case, what our own eyes are telling us.

    Read More
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  113. J1234 says:
    @Fred K
    Now wait a minute, a definite trend is emerging here:

    Mexico vs Poland (99% white)

    Mexico, 21.5 homicides per 100,000 people.
    Poland, 1.2 homicides per 100,000 people.

    In fact, when compared to every all white country, Mexico has a much higher crime index.
    Gee. Who'd a thunk it?

    In fact, when compared to every all white country, Mexico has a much higher crime index.

    Yes, I’m not reading through all of Unz’s stuff, because – from what I can tell – he seems to ignore international statistics regarding crime, and seems to go along with the mythology that the US has a calming effect on third world immigrants who come here. I’m also ignoring it because he went out looking for stats to validate a political viewpoint, and came up with this stuff.

    https://www.youtube.com/wat

    ch?v=TFw5fQZJlU8

    Yes, he makes several good points, but falls short.

    Read More
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  114. Father O'Hara [AKA "rihanna"] says:
    @Stephen Gould
    A tour de force from Mr Unz - brilliant!

    This article is a welcome corrective to an old rule of mine I've called the "WSJ principle", that any article which cites statistics in support of an argument invariably fails to supply the actual statistics needed to support it.

    Could Sailer look it over and give us his take?I don’t think I could get thru that big Magilla.

    Read More
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  115. Dahlia says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm quite gratified at the overwhelming response to my republished Hispanic Crime article, and it's also nice to see that nothing much has changed, and the participants seem about 95% hostile, just like they originally were back in 2010. I'm unfortunately too preoccupied with my software work right now to closely review the comments, let alone respond to them individually, but I thought I should provide a few more things.

    During that extended 2010 debate, many dozens of lengthy critiques of my analysis were published all around the internet, and I addressed the points they raised in a long series of follow-up columns, which also contained links to all those attacks. Indeed, one of those---"A Guide to the Debate"---provided a round-up of everything said on the subject. All of this material is conveniently linked just below the bottom of my article, so any of you who find my 5,700 word article leaves you with a unsatisfied appetite for "more" can easily access another 100,000 words of harsh attacks and 10,000 words of my rejoinders.

    Also, in my brief introduction, I'd suggested that various types of additional data has subsequently come out supporting my conclusions, but had neglected to mention them. Here are a few of the examples:

    (1) During the 2010 debate, I discovered that PPIC, California's leading non-partisan policy thinktank, had gained access to the exact demographics of CA's prison population and performed an age-adjusted ethnic analysis, fairly similar to my own (they apparently used a somewhat different age-adjustment methodology). Not only does California's huge Hispanic population dwarf that of any other state, but the long history of severe prison violence stark along ethnic/racial lines means CA probably constitutes the "Gold standard" for correctly classifying prison inmates. Here's the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you'll notice looks pretty similar to my own:

    http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_806ABCC.pdf#page=5

    (2) One of the most renowned racialist bloggers in quantative matters styles himself "La Griffe du Lion," and he had always claimed that his calculations proved that Hispanics had many times the crime rates of whites. When I once or twice raised questions about his methodology, he rudely dismissed my doubts in an insulting fashion.

    Then in 2012, he published a major article analyzing the criminality of whites and Hispanics using a new and far more sophisticated methodology somewhat similar to my own, and found that the two groups indeed had approximately similar crime rates:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-hispanic-crime-a-postscript/

    (3) Most recently, Heather Mac Donald managed to obtain the Justice Department data showing the actual breakdown of U.S. white and Hispanic criminal suspects as identified by their victims, previously hidden data which had for many years been the subject of angry speculation. As it happens, the data seems to be almost precisely what I had predicted using the indirect methods I was forced to use in my article:

    http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/07/01/justice_departments_hidden_race_data.html

    (4) A week or two ago, when I had a little more time, I actively participated in a lengthy debate on this same Hispanic Crime topic in a different thread. So you might want to take a look at my responses there:

    http://www.unz.com/forum/violent-crime-drops-again-in-california/

    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    The big difference is Hispanic crime is mainly gang related. I don't think this age adjustment flies. When did guys in the east coast mafia retire and stop committing crime? Yeah, some OGs might be allowed to stop but most are probably behind the scenes in the drug trade with the younger guys doing the street level dealing.
    , @Pincher Martin
    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes.

    But for Hispanics, the perception of race is often wildly at odds with the identification of race. Many Hispanics look either white or black, but still identify as Hispanic.

    So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)? Because the lower that number goes, the higher their perceived crime rate will be.

    , @MarkinLA
    One other thing about Hispanic gang related crime. Given their lack of educational achievement, what do you think is the likely occupation for these gang bangers should they get out of the joint?
    , @anon

    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
     
    Yes, you're missing something very obvious.

    Two populations can have the exact same crime rate but if disproportionately young males of one population immigrate into the territory of the other population then the crime rate will be massively higher.

    Once the original population has been driven out and replaced then the crime rate will drop back to the default.

    It's only complicated for the people who don't want to see.
    , @Jeff77450
    What you and Ron are (consistently) missing is that a great many Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos are identified/listed as "white" and that distorts the statistics.

    https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    Whites are probably overrepresented in the crime-statistics and H/L/C's are almost certainly underrepresented.
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  116. Realist says:
    @Jack Hanson
    The reason this column exists is because Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass. Apparently he was so ass hurt about it he felt the need to run to spergoid "Baffle em with bullshit" style autist reasoning.

    After reviewing some of Steve’s past columns it would appear that Steve does not agree with Ron on the subject of Mexican IQ

    Read More
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  117. Lot says:
    @officious intermeddler
    A friend pointed out a problem with my methodology for New York City. In the other data bases, I used two names - Juan Perez and John Perez - in order to see whether an English-sounding first name would result in a prisoner named Perez being classified as non-Hispanic. With New York State, Texas and Los Angeles, there were many examples of both names and the answer was that the English-sounding name did not result in misreporting of ethnicity.

    With NYC, there weren't enough Juan and John Perezes to do that, so I spot-checked other Perezes. My friend points out that my selection wasn't random. I typed in various names - Luis, Rafael, Jose, etc - and checked classification of ethnicity for those names. However, the names that I chose were all stereotypically Hispanic and all were men's names. When he chose a truly random sample of 30 (Rodriguezes, rather than Perezes) he found that 21 were classified as Hispanic, 8 as White and 1 as Unknown. Men with English first names were generally classified as White and men with Spanish first names were generally classified as Other. Also, women were mostly classified as White, whether their first names were English or Spanish.

    One explanation of this could be deliberate massaging of numbers by prison officials. Another could just be a tendency of low-level admitting officers to accept female prisoners' self-classifications as white, to accept male prisoners' self-classification if their first name was English and to reject males' self-classification if their first name was Spanish.

    I did the same sort of check five years ago in San Diego, and about 40% of Hispanic surnamed people were classified as white.

    When I checked again just now, this no longer seems to be the case. I typed in random common Spanish surnames, and less than 5% were white.

    However, if you look here:

    http://apps.ocfl.net/bailbond/Default.asp

    and type in a common Spanish name, about 90% of the results will be white, even for dark mestizos. They have no Hispanic category at all.

    For Orange Co, CA, they have a category called “Mexican-Latin American” and most all Spanish surnames are under this category.

    In summary, based on your searches and mine, this issue is slowly resolving itself, but the more accurate local data is going to take a while to get aggregated into national statistics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @officious intermeddler

    They have no Hispanic category at all.
     
    Also a problem in New York City, and I'm sure in many other jurisdictions. I looked at my original hometown's data base, and the only classifications permitted are "White" and "Black." People who are neither just have a blank in the column for race.
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  118. Lot says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm quite gratified at the overwhelming response to my republished Hispanic Crime article, and it's also nice to see that nothing much has changed, and the participants seem about 95% hostile, just like they originally were back in 2010. I'm unfortunately too preoccupied with my software work right now to closely review the comments, let alone respond to them individually, but I thought I should provide a few more things.

    During that extended 2010 debate, many dozens of lengthy critiques of my analysis were published all around the internet, and I addressed the points they raised in a long series of follow-up columns, which also contained links to all those attacks. Indeed, one of those---"A Guide to the Debate"---provided a round-up of everything said on the subject. All of this material is conveniently linked just below the bottom of my article, so any of you who find my 5,700 word article leaves you with a unsatisfied appetite for "more" can easily access another 100,000 words of harsh attacks and 10,000 words of my rejoinders.

    Also, in my brief introduction, I'd suggested that various types of additional data has subsequently come out supporting my conclusions, but had neglected to mention them. Here are a few of the examples:

    (1) During the 2010 debate, I discovered that PPIC, California's leading non-partisan policy thinktank, had gained access to the exact demographics of CA's prison population and performed an age-adjusted ethnic analysis, fairly similar to my own (they apparently used a somewhat different age-adjustment methodology). Not only does California's huge Hispanic population dwarf that of any other state, but the long history of severe prison violence stark along ethnic/racial lines means CA probably constitutes the "Gold standard" for correctly classifying prison inmates. Here's the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you'll notice looks pretty similar to my own:

    http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_806ABCC.pdf#page=5

    (2) One of the most renowned racialist bloggers in quantative matters styles himself "La Griffe du Lion," and he had always claimed that his calculations proved that Hispanics had many times the crime rates of whites. When I once or twice raised questions about his methodology, he rudely dismissed my doubts in an insulting fashion.

    Then in 2012, he published a major article analyzing the criminality of whites and Hispanics using a new and far more sophisticated methodology somewhat similar to my own, and found that the two groups indeed had approximately similar crime rates:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-hispanic-crime-a-postscript/

    (3) Most recently, Heather Mac Donald managed to obtain the Justice Department data showing the actual breakdown of U.S. white and Hispanic criminal suspects as identified by their victims, previously hidden data which had for many years been the subject of angry speculation. As it happens, the data seems to be almost precisely what I had predicted using the indirect methods I was forced to use in my article:

    http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/07/01/justice_departments_hidden_race_data.html

    (4) A week or two ago, when I had a little more time, I actively participated in a lengthy debate on this same Hispanic Crime topic in a different thread. So you might want to take a look at my responses there:

    http://www.unz.com/forum/violent-crime-drops-again-in-california/

    If we normalize the incarceration rate to the number of males aged 15-34, California Hispanics are imprisoned at 9 percent above the local white rate … Here’s the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you’ll notice looks pretty similar to my own:

    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.

    That’s pretty significant if you ask me. And it would be an even bigger gap if it were not for the fact that victims of Latino crimes are less likely to report the perp to the police because of police distrust and/or fear of deportation.

    What’s the true gap? 50% higher? 70% higher?

    Read More
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  119. HA says:
    @D. K.
    Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California's criminal-justice authorities classify him? How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?

    “Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California’s criminal-justice authorities classify him?”

    Charlie Sheen’s paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen’s mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Sheen

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    I was well aware of Martin Sheen's parentage. According to the American government, he, and all of his American descendants, are Hispanic Americans-- entitled to all of the benefits, set-asides and preferences attendant thereunto! I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own "Hispanic" background (according to the American government's definition, whether or not to that of any particular dictionary), just as his famous father is. If you think that Charlie Sheen's own children will not avail themselves of checking the available box, when they eventually apply to elite colleges, or for prestigious job openings, thereafter, you just might wish to think again....
    , @HA
    "I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own "Hispanic" background... as his famous father is."

    His father named his kids Emilio, Ramón, Carlos, and Renée. And all but one of them chose to keep the name Estevez. The one that did not -- guess who that is? -- has children named Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max. If you think Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic background as his father is, then again, our score-keeping is just as suspect as those who conveniently classify Mexican drug lords as white.
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  120. MarkinLA says:
    @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     

    The big difference is Hispanic crime is mainly gang related. I don’t think this age adjustment flies. When did guys in the east coast mafia retire and stop committing crime? Yeah, some OGs might be allowed to stop but most are probably behind the scenes in the drug trade with the younger guys doing the street level dealing.

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  121. @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     

    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes.

    But for Hispanics, the perception of race is often wildly at odds with the identification of race. Many Hispanics look either white or black, but still identify as Hispanic.

    So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)? Because the lower that number goes, the higher their perceived crime rate will be.

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    • Replies: @Dahlia
    I don't know, it seems a little graspy...

    I *do* believe people should believe their lying eyes. Reading over the comments, I sympathize with all those who just don't see what Ron (or I) see.

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss: Many Southern Whites can be very, very naughty.
    Think Florida Man and Florida Woman in addition to rednecks. There are rednecks, a few, who are so hateful that running across them would make one want to firebomb the South.
    Most of them, like Hispanics, just hurt each other, though; inner group feuding. Not much for smash and grab or knock-out game.

    It was too depressing to mention in my first comment, but my sister-in-law is currently waiting to see if she'll be facing manslaughter charges (don't ask)... so trust me: I know my rednecks and Florida people.
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  122. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Biff

    The people who support mass immigration don’t care about all the white people who get raped and murdered
     
    Am I supposed to care about white people getting raped and murdered? Am I supposed to care about the brown people getting bombed in Asia? Am I supposed to care about the Israelis or the Palestinians or the Israelis and the Palestinians? Am I supposed to care about the Tamil Tigers? Am I supposed to care about the Buddhists killing the Muslims in Myanmar? Why am I supposed to care about things I have no control over? Where is it written that I’m even supposed to care? Or is it better just to be a Nihilist?

    Raw nerve?

    Mass immigration, especially illegal, is skewed to young males. This gets lots of people raped and killed who otherwise wouldn’t have been.

    If you support it you’re an accessory.

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  123. MarkinLA says:
    @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     

    One other thing about Hispanic gang related crime. Given their lack of educational achievement, what do you think is the likely occupation for these gang bangers should they get out of the joint?

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  124. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     

    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.

    Yes, you’re missing something very obvious.

    Two populations can have the exact same crime rate but if disproportionately young males of one population immigrate into the territory of the other population then the crime rate will be massively higher.

    Once the original population has been driven out and replaced then the crime rate will drop back to the default.

    It’s only complicated for the people who don’t want to see.

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  125. @D. K.
    Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California's criminal-justice authorities classify him? How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?

    Is immigration of Hispanics a good idea? My own view is that it is not. I think allowing massive Hispanic immigration into the United States has been a mistake. I am in favor of restricting further Hispanic immigration.

    But that is not the question I was answering in my previous posts. Several commenters here have stated, as if it were a known fact, that prison authorities are fudging the data by classifying Hispanic prisoners as white. I’ve read similar accusations by several conservative writers whom I admire. One commenter said, “Check it out for your own state.” So I did. For my home state of New York, I did a quick check and found, somewhat to my surprise, that prison officials here appear not to be doing that. I also checked California or Texas, the two states with the largest Hispanic populations, and found that prison officials there also appear to be playing it straight.

    How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?

    It didn’t try to. My “methodology,” if you want to call it that, was as I described in my earlier posts. Since you asked, though, I just now checked inmates with the English surname, “Smith,” in the New York State data base. Of the first 100, excluding duplicate names with the same birthday (who I assumed to be the same person), 2 were classified as Unknown, 7 as Hispanic, 16 as White and 75 as Black. Out of curiosity, I also checked, “Zimmerman.” I got tired after the first 25 prisoners, but of that number, 2 were classified as Hispanic, 10 as White and 13 as Black. Because I expect that the names Smith and Zimmerman are rare among Hispanics, these results suggest to me, again, that New York State prison authorities are not fudging their numbers.

    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding. There were no prisoners named “Juan Smith” or “Jose Smith.” Similarly, in Los Angeles, there were 119 prisoners named “John Smith,” and 5 of them were Hispanic.

    I don’t know whether the numbers support Unz’s conclusions, but I don’t see any reason to think the numbers are fudged. If someone believes otherwise, he can do his own check, using any methodology that he thinks is better.

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    My friend nagged me to do the same exercise for New York City, for the sake of completeness: 28 Smiths, of which 25 were Black and 3 were Other (possibly Hispanic, although 1 of the 3 had an Indian from India first name). There were 4 Zimmermans: 2 Black and 2 Other.
    , @D. K.
    My point was that Hispanics are not necessarily identifiable either by race or by surname.

    One of my sisters had a Spanish surname, for the better part of twenty years. Her husband was a Mexican American; their kids were Mexican Americans. My sister was, then, as before and since, neither Mexican American nor Hispanic.

    I have a brother who has been a parish priest in El Salvador for over thirty years. He has dual citizenship, here and there. He intends to be buried there. His race has not changed. His name merely has added our mother's Slovak maiden name after our father's English surname, in the Latin-American tradition. Nonetheless, he now is an Hispanic American, along with his being an European-American Salvadoran. He now is permanently part of a Latin American nation and its Hispanic culture, just as President Alberto Fujimori's parents once were, after they had migrated from Japan to Peru.

    As far as I am concerned, 'Jeb' Bush is now an Hispanic American, too. I believe that he thinks so, as well, and that his claim that he registered as such, in Florida, by mistake was a not-so-[W]hite lie that he felt was quite necessary, for his presidential ambitions to continue to unfold, since the concocted conception of "Hispanics" as an actual and separate race is now so strong in America-- the Martin and Charlie Sheens of this world notwithstanding!
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  126. @Lot
    I did the same sort of check five years ago in San Diego, and about 40% of Hispanic surnamed people were classified as white.

    When I checked again just now, this no longer seems to be the case. I typed in random common Spanish surnames, and less than 5% were white.

    However, if you look here:

    http://apps.ocfl.net/bailbond/Default.asp

    and type in a common Spanish name, about 90% of the results will be white, even for dark mestizos. They have no Hispanic category at all.

    For Orange Co, CA, they have a category called "Mexican-Latin American" and most all Spanish surnames are under this category.

    In summary, based on your searches and mine, this issue is slowly resolving itself, but the more accurate local data is going to take a while to get aggregated into national statistics.

    They have no Hispanic category at all.

    Also a problem in New York City, and I’m sure in many other jurisdictions. I looked at my original hometown’s data base, and the only classifications permitted are “White” and “Black.” People who are neither just have a blank in the column for race.

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    • Replies: @drconatus
    I don't trust any government racial categories at all since recently having my first child and seeing the birth certificate forms (New York).

    There is one section for White Hispanics vs Non-White Hispanics. (WTF is that?) The next section contains the rest: White, Black, Native American, and 13(!) flavors of Asian. So according to NYC, Japanese and Koreans are different ethnicities, but Swedes and Saudis are the same. This is laughable. Either have really broad categories that would be obvious to everyone, or many many more specific ones.

    I'll reiterate what a lot of others already wrote: many local demographic statistics are invalid due to the fluidity of hispanics identifying as white. This skews the analysis in this post in ways that render it meaningless.

    I've lost respect for Unz after this obvious exercise in mental yoga to try to disprove my lying eyes.
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  127. Dahlia says:
    @Pincher Martin
    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes.

    But for Hispanics, the perception of race is often wildly at odds with the identification of race. Many Hispanics look either white or black, but still identify as Hispanic.

    So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)? Because the lower that number goes, the higher their perceived crime rate will be.

    I don’t know, it seems a little graspy…

    I *do* believe people should believe their lying eyes. Reading over the comments, I sympathize with all those who just don’t see what Ron (or I) see.

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss: Many Southern Whites can be very, very naughty.
    Think Florida Man and Florida Woman in addition to rednecks. There are rednecks, a few, who are so hateful that running across them would make one want to firebomb the South.
    Most of them, like Hispanics, just hurt each other, though; inner group feuding. Not much for smash and grab or knock-out game.

    It was too depressing to mention in my first comment, but my sister-in-law is currently waiting to see if she’ll be facing manslaughter charges (don’t ask)… so trust me: I know my rednecks and Florida people.

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    • Replies: @anon

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss
     
    They're not missing anything*.

    If two populations have exactly the same crime rate but the initial wave of immigration from one to the other into a new town or neighborhood is always disproportionately young males then there will be a rolling spike in violence and crime at the forward edge of the advance declining again as the original population is driven out by that spike in crime and violence.

    (*although they are chasing a red rag down a rabbit hole)

    , @Pincher Martin
    You do understand that a non-trivial percentage of people who identify as Hispanic are not Mestizo, and thus do not appear to the average white American to be Hispanic at all.

    Think of Cameron Diaz or Senator Menendez of New Jersey or Christina Aguilera or even Andy Garcia. With the possible exception of Garcia, if you met them in the street and did not know their surnames, you would consider them white Europeans.

    Half of all Hispanics in the country identify as white, even if some of these white Hispanics are identifiable to the eye of the typical non-Hispanic white American as Mestizo. Still, even with those white wanna-bes, a significant number of people in the country identify as Hispanic culturally without appearing to be Hispanic in the way most white and black Americans identify people as Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo).

    And I'm not including people like Martin Sheen and Christy Turlington, who also identify as Hispanic because they had a Spanish-speaking parent, but who most Americans would never guess in a thousand years were Hispanic.

    And then there are the black Hispanics. If someone who looks like Sammy Sosa punches you in the face, are you going to tell the cops you were assaulted by a Hispanic or a black man?

    This is very different from the situation with people who identify as blacks, whites, and Asians in the U.S., the vast majority of whom are more sharply demarcated, physically, by their continental origins.

    So in Ron's exercise, we have this huge number of Hispanics of all races (53 million) - many of whom we know are just whites and blacks who come from Spanish-Speaking countries - that we are dividing by this much narrower base of criminals who appear to be Mestizo. That kind of calculation is bound to push the Hispanic crime rate down.

    But drop the 53 million U.S. Hispanics by just 15 million (28 percent drop), and suddenly that Mestizo crime rate looks a lot different.
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  128. Retired says:

    Unz, You live in Palo Alto, the protected west side of 101. Some how I guess you live in the hills near the Palo Alto Country Club, 10 miles from the abode of any hispinic.

    Some time, after dark, walk down University Ave from newly getrified Whiskey Gulch down to where it meets up with Highway 84. Walk out to the old Dumbarton bridge where the fishing pier was closed down due to the violent drug trade. Or was than a different non-violent NAM race? Then, if you are still ambulatory, walk back. Write a column about that.

    And if you still have body and what soul you have left together, take a drive down highway 99 from Merced to Fresno. I call it Norte Mexcio. Stop and visit Victor Hanson south of Fresno and get his POV on hispanic crime.
    If you had children, where would you send them, Nixon Elementary or the Ravenswood School district, or perhaps Castro Elementary in Mtn View?
    BTW I used to live a mile north of Whiskey Gulch, then we fled south where it was safe to walk at night. When our child was 12 we went to a private school rather than the local middle school where there was a police car parked out front every day (35%+ Mexican)
    Now we live way out of town but still with a bunch of latinos thanks to Section 8.

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  129. @Jack Hanson
    The reason this column exists is because Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass. Apparently he was so ass hurt about it he felt the need to run to spergoid "Baffle em with bullshit" style autist reasoning.

    Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass.

    Unz must be an awfully nice guy. If I owned the website, as he does, I’d be more inclined to shut down the thread than to allow myself to be chased off it.

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    • Replies: @Realist
    It was Steve's thread.
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  130. I’m not a statistician, so I’m not going to argue whether the stats are wrong or not. I’ll just state that I’ve never seen or heard of Hispanic immigration making a nice area better, or not worse. Hispanic immigration largely destroys schools, neighborhoods, the job market, standard of living, wages, hospitals/health care, quality of work, spirit of community, cultural cohesion and just about everything else that makes a nice community nice before they move in.

    FWIW, I don’t buy the stats claiming that the Hispanic crime rate is no higher than that of Whites, but it shouldn’t matter since the two groups are largely incompatible and shouldn’t be forced together. I consider people who put the needs and welfare of foreigners above those of their fellow citizens to be traitors, and much more so than if they just sold out the political class.

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    • Replies: @Existential Confusion
    An axiom comes to mind, "Figures don't lie but liars figure." That could easily be changed to - statistics don't lie but liars manipulate statistics. While I do not believe Mr. Unz is a liar, I do believe that he is both basing his conclusions on suspect data, and manipulating the methodology to support his preferred conclusions.

    The "adjustment" for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets. Who, in their right mind, believes there is no manipulation of the data collected by the government? The government data does not at all reflect the reality that us peasants, who live in urban areas with high concentrations of illeagals, have to deal with on a daily basis.

    This reminds me of the old story about the wife coming home and finding her husband in bed with another woman. When the wife angrily confronts her husband he defends himself by saying, “Woman? What woman? Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”
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  131. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Dahlia
    I don't know, it seems a little graspy...

    I *do* believe people should believe their lying eyes. Reading over the comments, I sympathize with all those who just don't see what Ron (or I) see.

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss: Many Southern Whites can be very, very naughty.
    Think Florida Man and Florida Woman in addition to rednecks. There are rednecks, a few, who are so hateful that running across them would make one want to firebomb the South.
    Most of them, like Hispanics, just hurt each other, though; inner group feuding. Not much for smash and grab or knock-out game.

    It was too depressing to mention in my first comment, but my sister-in-law is currently waiting to see if she'll be facing manslaughter charges (don't ask)... so trust me: I know my rednecks and Florida people.

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss

    They’re not missing anything*.

    If two populations have exactly the same crime rate but the initial wave of immigration from one to the other into a new town or neighborhood is always disproportionately young males then there will be a rolling spike in violence and crime at the forward edge of the advance declining again as the original population is driven out by that spike in crime and violence.

    (*although they are chasing a red rag down a rabbit hole)

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  132. @officious intermeddler
    Is immigration of Hispanics a good idea? My own view is that it is not. I think allowing massive Hispanic immigration into the United States has been a mistake. I am in favor of restricting further Hispanic immigration.

    But that is not the question I was answering in my previous posts. Several commenters here have stated, as if it were a known fact, that prison authorities are fudging the data by classifying Hispanic prisoners as white. I've read similar accusations by several conservative writers whom I admire. One commenter said, "Check it out for your own state." So I did. For my home state of New York, I did a quick check and found, somewhat to my surprise, that prison officials here appear not to be doing that. I also checked California or Texas, the two states with the largest Hispanic populations, and found that prison officials there also appear to be playing it straight.

    How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?
     
    It didn't try to. My "methodology," if you want to call it that, was as I described in my earlier posts. Since you asked, though, I just now checked inmates with the English surname, "Smith," in the New York State data base. Of the first 100, excluding duplicate names with the same birthday (who I assumed to be the same person), 2 were classified as Unknown, 7 as Hispanic, 16 as White and 75 as Black. Out of curiosity, I also checked, "Zimmerman." I got tired after the first 25 prisoners, but of that number, 2 were classified as Hispanic, 10 as White and 13 as Black. Because I expect that the names Smith and Zimmerman are rare among Hispanics, these results suggest to me, again, that New York State prison authorities are not fudging their numbers.

    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named "J Smith," 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were "James Christopher Smith," "James R. Smith," "Jeffery Jordan Smith," "Jerry L. Smith" and "Jonathan Smith," so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding. There were no prisoners named "Juan Smith" or "Jose Smith." Similarly, in Los Angeles, there were 119 prisoners named "John Smith," and 5 of them were Hispanic.

    I don't know whether the numbers support Unz's conclusions, but I don't see any reason to think the numbers are fudged. If someone believes otherwise, he can do his own check, using any methodology that he thinks is better.

    My friend nagged me to do the same exercise for New York City, for the sake of completeness: 28 Smiths, of which 25 were Black and 3 were Other (possibly Hispanic, although 1 of the 3 had an Indian from India first name). There were 4 Zimmermans: 2 Black and 2 Other.

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  133. Realist says:
    @officious intermeddler

    Unz tried this disingenuous sophistry in a Steve Sailer thread and got chased off with the red ass.
     
    Unz must be an awfully nice guy. If I owned the website, as he does, I'd be more inclined to shut down the thread than to allow myself to be chased off it.

    It was Steve’s thread.

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  134. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California’s criminal-justice authorities classify him?"

    Charlie Sheen's paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen's mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Sheen

    I was well aware of Martin Sheen’s parentage. According to the American government, he, and all of his American descendants, are Hispanic Americans– entitled to all of the benefits, set-asides and preferences attendant thereunto! I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own “Hispanic” background (according to the American government’s definition, whether or not to that of any particular dictionary), just as his famous father is. If you think that Charlie Sheen’s own children will not avail themselves of checking the available box, when they eventually apply to elite colleges, or for prestigious job openings, thereafter, you just might wish to think again….

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  135. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Bob who is still Bob
    Ron

    What gives with the Name for posting? Having been Bob all my life and for as long as Unz Review has been around I am now told Bob is someone else and I have to be someone else to post here. In a world where Summers, the Derb, and Hunt can get taken down in a SJW hate storm a little anonymity seems well advised for a working stiff like me. I have to answer to my International employer for any kind of perceived hate thought I might express as my annual diversity training reminds me.

    [Although we had always encouraged commenters to select somewhat distinctive handles, there has been a growing problem of multiple commenters using the same simple name, which potentially causes a great deal of confusion. Therefore, a couple of weeks ago we implemented a subsystem that attempts to prevent this, and I'd assume that "Bob" was automatically assigned to a more prolific recent commenter. If you're agreeable, we can assign you the new handle "Bob1" and attempt to reassign most or all of your old comments to it.]



    Even if we accept parity criminality it doesn’t change the fact that vast numbers of those young men and somewhat lesser numbers of women, children, and oldsters have abused us by being here when they have no right to be. We are not wrong to resent ALL the crime of people who have no right to be here regardless of the rate they commit it at. How is it going selling this idea of parity criminality over on West Hunter?

    To the vast majority of illegals that are just doing what it takes to look after their families I extend my sympathy they have a hard road. For the Republican moneyed interest that sees cheap labor (direct & indirect), and the Democratic interest that see future secure voters I have none. Instead for the later despicable duo I have a slow burning rage.

    Thanks
    Bob

    How about ‘Robert’?

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    • Replies: @Bob who is also Robert
    @Anonymous

    Well yes, but only my Grandmother and my Mother when she is mad use that. The same goes for Bobby, only my Grandmother and a couple of childhood friends use that.
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  136. Alex M says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, I'm quite gratified at the overwhelming response to my republished Hispanic Crime article, and it's also nice to see that nothing much has changed, and the participants seem about 95% hostile, just like they originally were back in 2010. I'm unfortunately too preoccupied with my software work right now to closely review the comments, let alone respond to them individually, but I thought I should provide a few more things.

    During that extended 2010 debate, many dozens of lengthy critiques of my analysis were published all around the internet, and I addressed the points they raised in a long series of follow-up columns, which also contained links to all those attacks. Indeed, one of those---"A Guide to the Debate"---provided a round-up of everything said on the subject. All of this material is conveniently linked just below the bottom of my article, so any of you who find my 5,700 word article leaves you with a unsatisfied appetite for "more" can easily access another 100,000 words of harsh attacks and 10,000 words of my rejoinders.

    Also, in my brief introduction, I'd suggested that various types of additional data has subsequently come out supporting my conclusions, but had neglected to mention them. Here are a few of the examples:

    (1) During the 2010 debate, I discovered that PPIC, California's leading non-partisan policy thinktank, had gained access to the exact demographics of CA's prison population and performed an age-adjusted ethnic analysis, fairly similar to my own (they apparently used a somewhat different age-adjustment methodology). Not only does California's huge Hispanic population dwarf that of any other state, but the long history of severe prison violence stark along ethnic/racial lines means CA probably constitutes the "Gold standard" for correctly classifying prison inmates. Here's the link to the PPIC graph showing ethnic incarceration rates, which you'll notice looks pretty similar to my own:

    http://www.ppic.org/content/pubs/cacounts/CC_806ABCC.pdf#page=5

    (2) One of the most renowned racialist bloggers in quantative matters styles himself "La Griffe du Lion," and he had always claimed that his calculations proved that Hispanics had many times the crime rates of whites. When I once or twice raised questions about his methodology, he rudely dismissed my doubts in an insulting fashion.

    Then in 2012, he published a major article analyzing the criminality of whites and Hispanics using a new and far more sophisticated methodology somewhat similar to my own, and found that the two groups indeed had approximately similar crime rates:

    http://www.unz.com/runz/unz-on-hispanic-crime-a-postscript/

    (3) Most recently, Heather Mac Donald managed to obtain the Justice Department data showing the actual breakdown of U.S. white and Hispanic criminal suspects as identified by their victims, previously hidden data which had for many years been the subject of angry speculation. As it happens, the data seems to be almost precisely what I had predicted using the indirect methods I was forced to use in my article:

    http://www.realclearpolicy.com/blog/2015/07/01/justice_departments_hidden_race_data.html

    (4) A week or two ago, when I had a little more time, I actively participated in a lengthy debate on this same Hispanic Crime topic in a different thread. So you might want to take a look at my responses there:

    http://www.unz.com/forum/violent-crime-drops-again-in-california/

    “Conservatives” convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn’t even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Yeah, Republicans licking Hispanics asses almost as much as Democrats has done so much for Republicans in the last 30 years hasn't it? Just like when Reagan amnestied them and they voted even more for the Democrats and now California is lost forever.

    Maybe if we gave every Hispanic in Mexico and central America welfare and let them vote in our elections the Republicans might get 30% of the new Hispanic vote. I'll bet that would help.
    , @Pincher Martin
    Oh you just quiver with moral unctuousness, don't you, Alex?
    , @D. K.
    I am neither a Republican nor a conservative, nor have I ever been. I oppose mass immigration, altogether, on principle-- not just for the United States, but for any nation. I would be against the mass immigration of unassimilable Third Worlders to my country, regardless. I am not required to favor turning my own country into a Third World hellhole, just to appease an existing minority of ethnocentrics who maliciously desire for their own kind to become the majority, and their own language and culture to replace the founding and existing ones that my own ancestors bequethed to their own progeny. Hispanic immigrants who wish to live in a Spanish-speaking country, with an attendant Hispanic culture, should have stayed where they were. Hispanic Americans who care more about their ethnic kin in Latin America than about America, and the vast majority of their own fellow Americans, are Americans that America can well do without.

    (By the way, if you wish to pay for a qualified psychometrician, I would be very happy to take the MMPI, alongside you, and then compare our respective results to see who is the more psychologically well-adjusted, between the two of us. Feel free to look for an illegal alien licensed as such by the State of California....)

    , @Nico
    After a number of years living in Miami, I can accept that there are certain categories of Hispanics who are very unlikely to commit crimes, and probably less likely than the majority of whites. Having said that, the trend is not uniform, as my pot-dealing white or mostly-white-mulatto (*probably* the former) Cuban former roommate from suburban Miami will attest to, but you get outliers in every field.

    What I cannot accept is the assertion that the present invasion of mostly mulatto and mestizo immigrants, with the non-white element predominating in all but the Puerto Ricans, is not going to add up to a huge plague of violent crime akin to what this demographic wrecks in its home country of Mexico.

    As for this:

    the conservative base of the Republican Party... are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
     
    Go spend some time in a barrio on either side of the Rio Grande and then come back and tell me who are the "dangerous reactionary kooks." (Hint: don't let your sister go outside unaccompanied.)
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  137. D. K. says:
    @officious intermeddler
    Is immigration of Hispanics a good idea? My own view is that it is not. I think allowing massive Hispanic immigration into the United States has been a mistake. I am in favor of restricting further Hispanic immigration.

    But that is not the question I was answering in my previous posts. Several commenters here have stated, as if it were a known fact, that prison authorities are fudging the data by classifying Hispanic prisoners as white. I've read similar accusations by several conservative writers whom I admire. One commenter said, "Check it out for your own state." So I did. For my home state of New York, I did a quick check and found, somewhat to my surprise, that prison officials here appear not to be doing that. I also checked California or Texas, the two states with the largest Hispanic populations, and found that prison officials there also appear to be playing it straight.

    How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?
     
    It didn't try to. My "methodology," if you want to call it that, was as I described in my earlier posts. Since you asked, though, I just now checked inmates with the English surname, "Smith," in the New York State data base. Of the first 100, excluding duplicate names with the same birthday (who I assumed to be the same person), 2 were classified as Unknown, 7 as Hispanic, 16 as White and 75 as Black. Out of curiosity, I also checked, "Zimmerman." I got tired after the first 25 prisoners, but of that number, 2 were classified as Hispanic, 10 as White and 13 as Black. Because I expect that the names Smith and Zimmerman are rare among Hispanics, these results suggest to me, again, that New York State prison authorities are not fudging their numbers.

    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named "J Smith," 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were "James Christopher Smith," "James R. Smith," "Jeffery Jordan Smith," "Jerry L. Smith" and "Jonathan Smith," so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding. There were no prisoners named "Juan Smith" or "Jose Smith." Similarly, in Los Angeles, there were 119 prisoners named "John Smith," and 5 of them were Hispanic.

    I don't know whether the numbers support Unz's conclusions, but I don't see any reason to think the numbers are fudged. If someone believes otherwise, he can do his own check, using any methodology that he thinks is better.

    My point was that Hispanics are not necessarily identifiable either by race or by surname.

    One of my sisters had a Spanish surname, for the better part of twenty years. Her husband was a Mexican American; their kids were Mexican Americans. My sister was, then, as before and since, neither Mexican American nor Hispanic.

    I have a brother who has been a parish priest in El Salvador for over thirty years. He has dual citizenship, here and there. He intends to be buried there. His race has not changed. His name merely has added our mother’s Slovak maiden name after our father’s English surname, in the Latin-American tradition. Nonetheless, he now is an Hispanic American, along with his being an European-American Salvadoran. He now is permanently part of a Latin American nation and its Hispanic culture, just as President Alberto Fujimori’s parents once were, after they had migrated from Japan to Peru.

    As far as I am concerned, ‘Jeb’ Bush is now an Hispanic American, too. I believe that he thinks so, as well, and that his claim that he registered as such, in Florida, by mistake was a not-so-[W]hite lie that he felt was quite necessary, for his presidential ambitions to continue to unfold, since the concocted conception of “Hispanics” as an actual and separate race is now so strong in America– the Martin and Charlie Sheens of this world notwithstanding!

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    All of that is true enough, but it has nothing to do with whether prison officials are fudging the data, which is what I have been (rather single-mindedly) talking about.
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  138. MarkinLA says:
    @Alex M
    "Conservatives" convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn't even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can't be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    Yeah, Republicans licking Hispanics asses almost as much as Democrats has done so much for Republicans in the last 30 years hasn’t it? Just like when Reagan amnestied them and they voted even more for the Democrats and now California is lost forever.

    Maybe if we gave every Hispanic in Mexico and central America welfare and let them vote in our elections the Republicans might get 30% of the new Hispanic vote. I’ll bet that would help.

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  139. @Dahlia
    I don't know, it seems a little graspy...

    I *do* believe people should believe their lying eyes. Reading over the comments, I sympathize with all those who just don't see what Ron (or I) see.

    Here is what I think is the big thing commenters miss: Many Southern Whites can be very, very naughty.
    Think Florida Man and Florida Woman in addition to rednecks. There are rednecks, a few, who are so hateful that running across them would make one want to firebomb the South.
    Most of them, like Hispanics, just hurt each other, though; inner group feuding. Not much for smash and grab or knock-out game.

    It was too depressing to mention in my first comment, but my sister-in-law is currently waiting to see if she'll be facing manslaughter charges (don't ask)... so trust me: I know my rednecks and Florida people.

    You do understand that a non-trivial percentage of people who identify as Hispanic are not Mestizo, and thus do not appear to the average white American to be Hispanic at all.

    Think of Cameron Diaz or Senator Menendez of New Jersey or Christina Aguilera or even Andy Garcia. With the possible exception of Garcia, if you met them in the street and did not know their surnames, you would consider them white Europeans.

    Half of all Hispanics in the country identify as white, even if some of these white Hispanics are identifiable to the eye of the typical non-Hispanic white American as Mestizo. Still, even with those white wanna-bes, a significant number of people in the country identify as Hispanic culturally without appearing to be Hispanic in the way most white and black Americans identify people as Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo).

    And I’m not including people like Martin Sheen and Christy Turlington, who also identify as Hispanic because they had a Spanish-speaking parent, but who most Americans would never guess in a thousand years were Hispanic.

    And then there are the black Hispanics. If someone who looks like Sammy Sosa punches you in the face, are you going to tell the cops you were assaulted by a Hispanic or a black man?

    This is very different from the situation with people who identify as blacks, whites, and Asians in the U.S., the vast majority of whom are more sharply demarcated, physically, by their continental origins.

    So in Ron’s exercise, we have this huge number of Hispanics of all races (53 million) – many of whom we know are just whites and blacks who come from Spanish-Speaking countries – that we are dividing by this much narrower base of criminals who appear to be Mestizo. That kind of calculation is bound to push the Hispanic crime rate down.

    But drop the 53 million U.S. Hispanics by just 15 million (28 percent drop), and suddenly that Mestizo crime rate looks a lot different.

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  140. @Alex M
    "Conservatives" convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn't even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can't be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    Oh you just quiver with moral unctuousness, don’t you, Alex?

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  141. D. K. says:
    @Alex M
    "Conservatives" convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn't even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can't be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    I am neither a Republican nor a conservative, nor have I ever been. I oppose mass immigration, altogether, on principle– not just for the United States, but for any nation. I would be against the mass immigration of unassimilable Third Worlders to my country, regardless. I am not required to favor turning my own country into a Third World hellhole, just to appease an existing minority of ethnocentrics who maliciously desire for their own kind to become the majority, and their own language and culture to replace the founding and existing ones that my own ancestors bequethed to their own progeny. Hispanic immigrants who wish to live in a Spanish-speaking country, with an attendant Hispanic culture, should have stayed where they were. Hispanic Americans who care more about their ethnic kin in Latin America than about America, and the vast majority of their own fellow Americans, are Americans that America can well do without.

    (By the way, if you wish to pay for a qualified psychometrician, I would be very happy to take the MMPI, alongside you, and then compare our respective results to see who is the more psychologically well-adjusted, between the two of us. Feel free to look for an illegal alien licensed as such by the State of California….)

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  142. @D. K.
    My point was that Hispanics are not necessarily identifiable either by race or by surname.

    One of my sisters had a Spanish surname, for the better part of twenty years. Her husband was a Mexican American; their kids were Mexican Americans. My sister was, then, as before and since, neither Mexican American nor Hispanic.

    I have a brother who has been a parish priest in El Salvador for over thirty years. He has dual citizenship, here and there. He intends to be buried there. His race has not changed. His name merely has added our mother's Slovak maiden name after our father's English surname, in the Latin-American tradition. Nonetheless, he now is an Hispanic American, along with his being an European-American Salvadoran. He now is permanently part of a Latin American nation and its Hispanic culture, just as President Alberto Fujimori's parents once were, after they had migrated from Japan to Peru.

    As far as I am concerned, 'Jeb' Bush is now an Hispanic American, too. I believe that he thinks so, as well, and that his claim that he registered as such, in Florida, by mistake was a not-so-[W]hite lie that he felt was quite necessary, for his presidential ambitions to continue to unfold, since the concocted conception of "Hispanics" as an actual and separate race is now so strong in America-- the Martin and Charlie Sheens of this world notwithstanding!

    All of that is true enough, but it has nothing to do with whether prison officials are fudging the data, which is what I have been (rather single-mindedly) talking about.

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    • Replies: @C
    This is what I'm talking about.

    http://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2.aspx

    Again, I dunno about the states you researched, but for Michigan, Hispanic crime is definitely not up to code.
    , @C
    I also did some more digging:
    Florida is a lot like Michigan, with many Hispanics being classified as white.
    http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/search.asp

    In New Jersey, while searching the surname Rodriguez ages 18-29, around 4-6 inmates on each page were classified as "white". If that held up, we are talking about 20-30% of Hispanic crime being attributed to white Americans.

    https://www20.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/results?pg=3&col2Srt=2&h=70086

    In Georgia, most of the Rodriguez hits get classified as "Unknown" or "Other".
    http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp?Institution=

    If I had to hazard a guess, I think its a good bet that reported Hispanic crime is being underestimated at 10-20%.
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  143. duderino says:

    I grew up with a Mexican friend. He was overly macho about starting fights and always wanted to drink. In ninth grade, it was exciting because his parents let us drink. Now he’s 30 and nothing has changed. My impression of many young Mexicans is like him. Not a serious threat by himself, but the wrong crowd could rile him into doing almost anything. He, like many Mexicans, is likable in person. But if he and his 20 closest relatives moved to the neighborhood, I’d be checking the real estate listings quick.

    Sketchy is the word. People just say dangerous when they go to a poor black neighborhood. Sketchy means I probably won’t get mugged, but the state of the neighborhood tells you there’s a lot of people living in a state of low conscientiousness. The yards are a little junky. Their are a lot of chained up pit bulls. Music is blaring. The cars are a whole lot fancier than the houses. That doesn’t make them bad people. It’s a bad trait for a whole society though.

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  144. Nico says: • Website

    Before all you Hispanophiles get all ga-ga over what this data reveals for your position on things, I would just like to point out that Ron Unz’s lengthy articles are not exactly known for making credible additions to your list of citations, as exemplified by the dressing-down in the link above. Very characteristically of Harvard graduates, Unz spills quite a lot of ink/wastes a lot of breath in the service of obfuscantism – I suspect not deliberately in his case, but that makes little difference to the end product.

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  145. Nico says:
    @Alex M
    "Conservatives" convulse when presented with the facts about Hispanic crime rates. Even that Robert VerBruggen fellow from RealClearPolicy only begrudgingly accepts the facts. He didn't even mention how much more urban than whites Hispanics are. And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can't be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    After a number of years living in Miami, I can accept that there are certain categories of Hispanics who are very unlikely to commit crimes, and probably less likely than the majority of whites. Having said that, the trend is not uniform, as my pot-dealing white or mostly-white-mulatto (*probably* the former) Cuban former roommate from suburban Miami will attest to, but you get outliers in every field.

    What I cannot accept is the assertion that the present invasion of mostly mulatto and mestizo immigrants, with the non-white element predominating in all but the Puerto Ricans, is not going to add up to a huge plague of violent crime akin to what this demographic wrecks in its home country of Mexico.

    As for this:

    the conservative base of the Republican Party… are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    Go spend some time in a barrio on either side of the Rio Grande and then come back and tell me who are the “dangerous reactionary kooks.” (Hint: don’t let your sister go outside unaccompanied.)

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  146. Nico says:
    @D. K.
    Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California's criminal-justice authorities classify him? How did your own methodology account for Hispanics who do not carry Spanish surnames?

    The obvious problem with any analysis of numbers on the term “Hispanic” is that the troublemakers (excepting perhaps certain Argentine and Brazilian Mafiosi) seem to be very largely of mestizo and mulatto and/or Indian and black stock. These are the groups most people on here object to, and there is no way to count or identify these ones reliably apart from having a third-party census observer tally them up visually due to the longstanding Latin American tradition of obfuscating one’s Indian and black lineage even in the face of clear phenotypical evidence to the contrary of one’s claims.

    I for one would be thrilled to see the “Hispanic/Latino” category busted up and its members assigned to their respective racial categories in any such studies, but in the present circumstances I am well aware that this would only serve to create a skewed picture of “whites,” as the photos of the 10 Most Wanted Fugitives in Texas make abundantly clear.

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  147. Ragno says:

    Interesting article.

    Tony Bologna and his two sons Michael and Matthew would surely beg to differ with your many charts, graphs and anecdotal examples if they hadn’t been murdered by an MS-13 gang member :

    A jury convicted Ramos in May of murdering San Francisco residents Tony Bologna, 48, and his sons Michael, 20, and Matthew, 16, on an Excelsior neighborhood street after mistaking at least one of the sons for a gang rival. The killings on June 22, 2008, gained national attention after reports that city juvenile-justice officials, relying on San Francisco’s sanctuary-city policy, had twice shielded Ramos, a suspected illegal immigrant from El Salvador, from possible deportation after he committed a gang-related assault and an attempted robbery as a minor.

    That gang-related assault being another murder.

    It’s been said, and said, yet apparently it requires more saying: if they’re coming in illegally, then even one violent criminal is one too many.

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  148. @OilcanFloyd
    I'm not a statistician, so I'm not going to argue whether the stats are wrong or not. I'll just state that I've never seen or heard of Hispanic immigration making a nice area better, or not worse. Hispanic immigration largely destroys schools, neighborhoods, the job market, standard of living, wages, hospitals/health care, quality of work, spirit of community, cultural cohesion and just about everything else that makes a nice community nice before they move in.

    FWIW, I don't buy the stats claiming that the Hispanic crime rate is no higher than that of Whites, but it shouldn't matter since the two groups are largely incompatible and shouldn't be forced together. I consider people who put the needs and welfare of foreigners above those of their fellow citizens to be traitors, and much more so than if they just sold out the political class.

    An axiom comes to mind, “Figures don’t lie but liars figure.” That could easily be changed to – statistics don’t lie but liars manipulate statistics. While I do not believe Mr. Unz is a liar, I do believe that he is both basing his conclusions on suspect data, and manipulating the methodology to support his preferred conclusions.

    The “adjustment” for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets. Who, in their right mind, believes there is no manipulation of the data collected by the government? The government data does not at all reflect the reality that us peasants, who live in urban areas with high concentrations of illeagals, have to deal with on a daily basis.

    This reminds me of the old story about the wife coming home and finding her husband in bed with another woman. When the wife angrily confronts her husband he defends himself by saying, “Woman? What woman? Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    Yes, if you want to compare the crime of one group with another and you think Hispanics are over-represented because of their age then instead of adjusting for age in some way simply get the crime statistics for 27 year old whites. That is the real calculation. Of course, then the Hispanic crime apologist will start talking about poverty or lack of education.

    If it isn't available then you aren't comparing apples to apples because what constitutes crime that gets you locked up changes all the time and only what is happening right now can make a valid comparison. 50 years ago prisons had lots of people in them for smoking a joint.
    , @vinteuil
    "The adjustment for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets."

    Precisely so. The single biggest problem with illegal Mexican immigrants is that they are, overwhelmingly, young men, right in the middle of their prime crime-prone years.

    But RKU seems to think that's a good reason to let them off easy - I guess 'cause he doesn't think they're all that much worse than red-neck proles.
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  149. Big Bill says:

    Yet in all my years of living there, I never encountered a hostile or menacing situation, let alone suffered an actual criminal attack. [] So were my personal experiences atypical?

    No, your experiences were not “atypical”. A “typical” experience is one that, say, 80%+ of the people experience. Murder is not “typical”, nor is armed robbery, or rape, or burglary, or theft, for example — even in South Africa.

    Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over. That leaves tens of thousands that have not been butchered. Butchered farmers are not “typical”. Being tortured by Stalin’s secret police was not “typical” in Russia, nor was being sent to the Gulag. It is not “typical” to be shot in the White House, nor is it “typical” to be shot in the ghettoes of Johannesburg.

    In the towns I grew up in, we never locked our doors. People would freely come and go. We would step into a neighbor’s vacant house to borrow a cup of sugar. There had been no murders, rapes or armed robberies for the better part of a century. We left the keys in our cars and never locked them. Yet all it would take would be one very, VERY “atypical” unsolved murder to change all that for the entire town — instantly. Would you tell them their fears were foolish since there had only been one “atypical” murder in 80 years?

    In many European cities until 40 or 50 years ago, women could walk home alone at 3 AM in what felt to them to be perfect safety. Crime was not “typical” then, nor is it “typical” now, yet European women would not dream of walking home alone at 3AM now. Are they irrational?

    How many “atypical” murders, rapes, and robberies does it take? Imagine just one 12 year old girl is abducted and raped in your small city. The defense attorney later explains that such abductions are “just a part of Mexican/Mestizo culture” and “we have to understand the defendant’s behavior in light of his culture and how he was raised”. So what are we to think of the Mestizos working across the street from our children’s playground? Surely such attacks are “atypical”, even rare, but should we not even think about the potential danger? Should we not even calculate the odds? And should we not calculate the desirability of more and more people of this alien culture living among us?

    Let us take our guidance from them. Look at the houses they live in. Do they have barred windows? Yards with 6 foot fences around them? Pit bulls? Double locks on their doors? Do they (in Mexico) have brick walls around their houses with shards of broken glass cemented on top? Why? Because they are afraid of nice Anglos breaking in? Maybe Mormon missionaries? Or because they are afraid of their own people? And if THEY are afraid of their own people, shouldn’t we be? Even if the crime they fear is not “typical”?

    I, too, lived in New York City, on the ground floor of an apartment building in Riverdale. I experienced no crime, but I had a steel door with two high-tech locks, a deabolt, and steel fences (with padlocks) over each window when I moved in. It felt like a prison. Crime was “atypical” in my building and neighborhood. Should I have removed the locks? Should I have left the window fences open?

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    • Replies: @bomag
    Good comment.

    Lost in this analysis, and indicated in other comments, is that much of what makes up a community is the nature of low level crime; that which does not generate a statutory charge that results in incarceration: lack of insurance; littering; non-compliance with regulation; etc.

    Also here is the social bullying by Ron Unz that we often get from Social Justice Warriors. We don't like what we see happening to our community and culture; so we complain about something like increased crime; and Ron comes around with a narrow study that shows we are just wrong. The implication here is that we should shut up because we are wrong in our perception of crime, and we are probably wrong about everything else that doesn't comport with the Narrative; so we are supposed to just sit here and take whatever comes our way without complaint, 'cause everybody's equal; and if not the Central Powers will enact regulation that will equalize us; and besides, the native people suck anyway; they are boring, everything they've done can be done by others; etc; blah blah blah.
    , @Retired
    Brilliant!
    , @Truth
    "Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over"

    Well, according to wikipedia, your numbers are a little,...misleading

    "South African farmers have suffered from attacks for many years, especially wealthier farmers.[1] Fact checking organisation Africa Check has “Whites are far less likely to be murdered than their black or coloured counterparts,” Lizette Lancaster, who manages the Institute for Security Studies crime and justice hub, told Africa Check. This is supported by an analysis of a national sample of 1378 murder dockets conducted by police in 2009. In 86.9% of the cases, the victims were Africans. Whites accounted for 1.8% of the cases (although whites make up 8.85% of the population).."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks
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  150. C says:
    @officious intermeddler
    All of that is true enough, but it has nothing to do with whether prison officials are fudging the data, which is what I have been (rather single-mindedly) talking about.

    This is what I’m talking about.

    http://mdocweb.state.mi.us/OTIS2/otis2.aspx

    Again, I dunno about the states you researched, but for Michigan, Hispanic crime is definitely not up to code.

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  151. C says:
    @officious intermeddler
    All of that is true enough, but it has nothing to do with whether prison officials are fudging the data, which is what I have been (rather single-mindedly) talking about.

    I also did some more digging:
    Florida is a lot like Michigan, with many Hispanics being classified as white.

    http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/search.asp

    In New Jersey, while searching the surname Rodriguez ages 18-29, around 4-6 inmates on each page were classified as “white”. If that held up, we are talking about 20-30% of Hispanic crime being attributed to white Americans.

    https://www20.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/results?pg=3&col2Srt=2&h=70086

    In Georgia, most of the Rodriguez hits get classified as “Unknown” or “Other”.

    http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp?Institution=

    If I had to hazard a guess, I think its a good bet that reported Hispanic crime is being underestimated at 10-20%.

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    • Replies: @officious intermeddler
    The Florida, New Jersey and Georgia sites are also helpful because they have pictures of the inmates, unlike New York, Texas and California, which just have lists of names. You can look at the pictures and decide for yourself whether the person looks white. I wonder if you agree with my own impressions:

    In Florida, there was a very large number of inmates with Spanish surnames who were classified as white. I would say that about half to two-thirds of them actually do look white. (For some reason, my search for "Rodriguez" turned up a lot of Spanish surnames other than Rodriguez.)

    In New Jersey, there was a large number of inmates names named J Rodriguez who are classified as white. Almost all of them actually look Hispanic. (Searching for "Rodriguez" alone without the initial J yielded an error message saying that my search had turned up too many names.)

    In Georgia, the very large majority of the inmates named Rodriquez were classified as unknown. Most of them looked Hispanic, although a surprising (to me) number of them looked as if they were white or could have passed for white. On the other hand, a lot of those photos seemed to be overexposed, resulting in lighter-looking skin. There were not very many Rodriguezes classified as white, and I thought almost all of them actually looked white, with not just light skin but white-looking features.

    Do you know which states Ron Unz used in his sample? And did he try to double-check the data in this way or something similar? I've already spent more time on this thread than I reasonably should have, so I'm not planning to go back and read his article again to find out. If you're feeling more energetic than me, I'd be curious to know..

    , @officious intermeddler
    By the way, thanks for actually doing some digging. I don't have any emotional investment in the answer to the question of whether the numbers are being fudged. But it drives me nuts when people respond to actual data with emotional appeals instead of with other data.
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  152. MarkinLA says:
    @Existential Confusion
    An axiom comes to mind, "Figures don't lie but liars figure." That could easily be changed to - statistics don't lie but liars manipulate statistics. While I do not believe Mr. Unz is a liar, I do believe that he is both basing his conclusions on suspect data, and manipulating the methodology to support his preferred conclusions.

    The "adjustment" for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets. Who, in their right mind, believes there is no manipulation of the data collected by the government? The government data does not at all reflect the reality that us peasants, who live in urban areas with high concentrations of illeagals, have to deal with on a daily basis.

    This reminds me of the old story about the wife coming home and finding her husband in bed with another woman. When the wife angrily confronts her husband he defends himself by saying, “Woman? What woman? Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”

    Yes, if you want to compare the crime of one group with another and you think Hispanics are over-represented because of their age then instead of adjusting for age in some way simply get the crime statistics for 27 year old whites. That is the real calculation. Of course, then the Hispanic crime apologist will start talking about poverty or lack of education.

    If it isn’t available then you aren’t comparing apples to apples because what constitutes crime that gets you locked up changes all the time and only what is happening right now can make a valid comparison. 50 years ago prisons had lots of people in them for smoking a joint.

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  153. MarkinLA says:

    One thing that should be noted is how many of our gang member criminals have been deported and are back in Mexico and central America and not in our prisons. Many are actually in prison back home. What would the Hispanic incarceration rate be if they weren’t deported?

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  154. drconatus says:
    @officious intermeddler

    They have no Hispanic category at all.
     
    Also a problem in New York City, and I'm sure in many other jurisdictions. I looked at my original hometown's data base, and the only classifications permitted are "White" and "Black." People who are neither just have a blank in the column for race.

    I don’t trust any government racial categories at all since recently having my first child and seeing the birth certificate forms (New York).

    There is one section for White Hispanics vs Non-White Hispanics. (WTF is that?) The next section contains the rest: White, Black, Native American, and 13(!) flavors of Asian. So according to NYC, Japanese and Koreans are different ethnicities, but Swedes and Saudis are the same. This is laughable. Either have really broad categories that would be obvious to everyone, or many many more specific ones.

    I’ll reiterate what a lot of others already wrote: many local demographic statistics are invalid due to the fluidity of hispanics identifying as white. This skews the analysis in this post in ways that render it meaningless.

    I’ve lost respect for Unz after this obvious exercise in mental yoga to try to disprove my lying eyes.

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  155. MarkinLA says:

    If you think about it, incarceration rates are not even valid since younger offenders will be given leniency while a long time loser will be incarcerated on any minor charge to get him out of the neighborhood, at least for awhile. Given that that offender is more likely white or black that will skew the results toward Hispanics being less crime prone. The LA county jail is so overcrowded that people getting a 90 day or less sentence are released after they are processed.

    What happens to the illegal alien sentenced for a serious misdemeanor (well now Obama hands him the key to the city but before that) compared to a citizen. The illegal may be given a suspended sentence and handed over to ICE while the citizen is put away.

    All of these issues add up so that the only real way to compare apples to apples is the court conviction information (although that too can be skewed by illegals voluntarily leaving with no court verdict as we saw in the sanctuary case recently where the old marijuana case was dropped)

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  156. There is one section for White Hispanics vs Non-White Hispanics. (WTF is that?)

    King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were White Hispanics.
    Sammy Davis, Jr. was a Non-White Hispanic.

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  157. bomag says:
    @Big Bill

    Yet in all my years of living there, I never encountered a hostile or menacing situation, let alone suffered an actual criminal attack. [] So were my personal experiences atypical?
     
    No, your experiences were not "atypical". A "typical" experience is one that, say, 80%+ of the people experience. Murder is not "typical", nor is armed robbery, or rape, or burglary, or theft, for example -- even in South Africa.

    Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over. That leaves tens of thousands that have not been butchered. Butchered farmers are not "typical". Being tortured by Stalin's secret police was not "typical" in Russia, nor was being sent to the Gulag. It is not "typical" to be shot in the White House, nor is it "typical" to be shot in the ghettoes of Johannesburg.

    In the towns I grew up in, we never locked our doors. People would freely come and go. We would step into a neighbor's vacant house to borrow a cup of sugar. There had been no murders, rapes or armed robberies for the better part of a century. We left the keys in our cars and never locked them. Yet all it would take would be one very, VERY "atypical" unsolved murder to change all that for the entire town -- instantly. Would you tell them their fears were foolish since there had only been one "atypical" murder in 80 years?

    In many European cities until 40 or 50 years ago, women could walk home alone at 3 AM in what felt to them to be perfect safety. Crime was not "typical" then, nor is it "typical" now, yet European women would not dream of walking home alone at 3AM now. Are they irrational?

    How many "atypical" murders, rapes, and robberies does it take? Imagine just one 12 year old girl is abducted and raped in your small city. The defense attorney later explains that such abductions are "just a part of Mexican/Mestizo culture" and "we have to understand the defendant's behavior in light of his culture and how he was raised". So what are we to think of the Mestizos working across the street from our children's playground? Surely such attacks are "atypical", even rare, but should we not even think about the potential danger? Should we not even calculate the odds? And should we not calculate the desirability of more and more people of this alien culture living among us?

    Let us take our guidance from them. Look at the houses they live in. Do they have barred windows? Yards with 6 foot fences around them? Pit bulls? Double locks on their doors? Do they (in Mexico) have brick walls around their houses with shards of broken glass cemented on top? Why? Because they are afraid of nice Anglos breaking in? Maybe Mormon missionaries? Or because they are afraid of their own people? And if THEY are afraid of their own people, shouldn't we be? Even if the crime they fear is not "typical"?

    I, too, lived in New York City, on the ground floor of an apartment building in Riverdale. I experienced no crime, but I had a steel door with two high-tech locks, a deabolt, and steel fences (with padlocks) over each window when I moved in. It felt like a prison. Crime was "atypical" in my building and neighborhood. Should I have removed the locks? Should I have left the window fences open?

    Good comment.

    Lost in this analysis, and indicated in other comments, is that much of what makes up a community is the nature of low level crime; that which does not generate a statutory charge that results in incarceration: lack of insurance; littering; non-compliance with regulation; etc.

    Also here is the social bullying by Ron Unz that we often get from Social Justice Warriors. We don’t like what we see happening to our community and culture; so we complain about something like increased crime; and Ron comes around with a narrow study that shows we are just wrong. The implication here is that we should shut up because we are wrong in our perception of crime, and we are probably wrong about everything else that doesn’t comport with the Narrative; so we are supposed to just sit here and take whatever comes our way without complaint, ’cause everybody’s equal; and if not the Central Powers will enact regulation that will equalize us; and besides, the native people suck anyway; they are boring, everything they’ve done can be done by others; etc; blah blah blah.

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  158. HA says:
    @HA
    "Charlie Sheen is Hispanic. How did California’s criminal-justice authorities classify him?"

    Charlie Sheen's paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen's mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Sheen

    “I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own “Hispanic” background… as his famous father is.”

    His father named his kids Emilio, Ramón, Carlos, and Renée. And all but one of them chose to keep the name Estevez. The one that did not — guess who that is? — has children named Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max. If you think Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic background as his father is, then again, our score-keeping is just as suspect as those who conveniently classify Mexican drug lords as white.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    In the first place, I did not opine that Charlie Sheen was as proud of his Hispanic heritage as his father, Martin, is of his own; instead, I merely said that I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own. I am sorry if your own English comprehension is so poor that you cannot distinguish between those two claims. I am not particularly proud of my being half-Slovak, either, in the way that my late mother was very proud of her being a first-generation, native-born Slovak American. I generally think of myself as just a generic American-- or, increasingly, as a generic European American-- since, unlike my mother, I myself am descended from a large number of different European nationalities. That certainly does not mean, however, that I am ashamed of my being half-Slovak, nor that I would try to conceal the fact that I am half-Slovak. Martin Sheen is half-Spanish and half-Irish, and very proud of both halves. Being a first-generation, native-born American, it is hardly surprising if he is more proud of his own immigrant roots than his son Charlie, or any of Charlie's many siblings, is of his own more-attenuated roots in Europe.

    I assume that Charlie Sheen took his own stage name because (a) he was proud to be following in his famous father's footsteps, and he wanted to acknowledge that professional heritage; and, (b) just like his actor-father before him, he did not wish to be typecast or pigeonholed by Hollywood. Neither motivation would suggest any shame on his part at his having a paternal grandfather that emigrated from Spain. I believe that his actor-brother, Emilio, has publicly stated that he did not change his name to Sheen, for professional purposes, precisely because he did not want to be seen as trying to ride on the coattails of his famous father's successful acting career. Both decisions seem quite reasonable to me; neither suggests to me that either ethnic pride or ethnomasochism played an appreciable role in either decision.

    As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen's supposed ethnomasochism-- the fact that he did not give each of his one-eighth-Spanish children a decidedly Spanish Christian name-- along with the fact that he had non-Hispanic wives who just might have had some minor input into the naming of their respective children, I would note that you chose not to list the Christian names of any of Martin Sheen's other grandchildren, from his several other children. Is it just possible that not all of those one-eighth-Spanish grandchildren bear decidedly Spanish Christian names, either?
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  159. @C
    I also did some more digging:
    Florida is a lot like Michigan, with many Hispanics being classified as white.
    http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/search.asp

    In New Jersey, while searching the surname Rodriguez ages 18-29, around 4-6 inmates on each page were classified as "white". If that held up, we are talking about 20-30% of Hispanic crime being attributed to white Americans.

    https://www20.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/results?pg=3&col2Srt=2&h=70086

    In Georgia, most of the Rodriguez hits get classified as "Unknown" or "Other".
    http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp?Institution=

    If I had to hazard a guess, I think its a good bet that reported Hispanic crime is being underestimated at 10-20%.

    The Florida, New Jersey and Georgia sites are also helpful because they have pictures of the inmates, unlike New York, Texas and California, which just have lists of names. You can look at the pictures and decide for yourself whether the person looks white. I wonder if you agree with my own impressions:

    In Florida, there was a very large number of inmates with Spanish surnames who were classified as white. I would say that about half to two-thirds of them actually do look white. (For some reason, my search for “Rodriguez” turned up a lot of Spanish surnames other than Rodriguez.)

    In New Jersey, there was a large number of inmates names named J Rodriguez who are classified as white. Almost all of them actually look Hispanic. (Searching for “Rodriguez” alone without the initial J yielded an error message saying that my search had turned up too many names.)

    In Georgia, the very large majority of the inmates named Rodriquez were classified as unknown. Most of them looked Hispanic, although a surprising (to me) number of them looked as if they were white or could have passed for white. On the other hand, a lot of those photos seemed to be overexposed, resulting in lighter-looking skin. There were not very many Rodriguezes classified as white, and I thought almost all of them actually looked white, with not just light skin but white-looking features.

    Do you know which states Ron Unz used in his sample? And did he try to double-check the data in this way or something similar? I’ve already spent more time on this thread than I reasonably should have, so I’m not planning to go back and read his article again to find out. If you’re feeling more energetic than me, I’d be curious to know..

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    • Replies: @C
    In the graph with the most states that shows white-Hispanic incarceration rates 18-29, he has Florida, but doesn't have Georgia, Michigan or New Jersey. I also checked Virginia and Virginia classified the few Hispanics they had almost always as white.

    Also, he uses Georgia and Florida as examples of states where Hispanics have lower incarceration rates than whites, when its very clear that that data is flawed.

    For me, like a lot of people on this thread, I know what I see: Hispanics come to a place and said place gets worse. Its really that simple. But what I dislike about Unz is he thinks that by throwing a volume of graphs and charts at things means he is right (look at his disgustingly snide and smug comment), when an internet commenter can prove in 10 minutes that the data he is using is obviously flawed.
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  160. @C
    I also did some more digging:
    Florida is a lot like Michigan, with many Hispanics being classified as white.
    http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/search.asp

    In New Jersey, while searching the surname Rodriguez ages 18-29, around 4-6 inmates on each page were classified as "white". If that held up, we are talking about 20-30% of Hispanic crime being attributed to white Americans.

    https://www20.state.nj.us/DOC_Inmate/results?pg=3&col2Srt=2&h=70086

    In Georgia, most of the Rodriguez hits get classified as "Unknown" or "Other".
    http://www.dcor.state.ga.us/GDC/OffenderQuery/jsp/OffQryForm.jsp?Institution=

    If I had to hazard a guess, I think its a good bet that reported Hispanic crime is being underestimated at 10-20%.

    By the way, thanks for actually doing some digging. I don’t have any emotional investment in the answer to the question of whether the numbers are being fudged. But it drives me nuts when people respond to actual data with emotional appeals instead of with other data.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    It is not an emotional appeal to point out that manipulating statistics to pretend that a minority population has the same age and sex distributions as the majority population is methodologically bogus, when the issue at hand is not the innate criminality of those respective populations, but instead the relative amount of crime for which that minority is now responsible, compared to the majority. As my own initial comment, above, essentially asked: What do the actual demographics of Hispanics in America, generally, Hispanic immigrants to America, particularly, and Hispanic illegal aliens in America, especially, suggest about their expected crime rates, here? Since Mr. Unz is not about to regulate the incoming hordes so that their (non-ethnic) demographics-- not just for age and sex, but for IQ, education, social status, etc.-- match the existing demographics of White America, it is utterly irrelevant what those hordes would act like, here, if they actually did match our demographics!
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  161. Who gets shot in America?

    Google “State Variation in Hospital Use and Cost of Firearm Assault Injury, 2010”. It’s 10 pages long. The below information appears in a graph on page four.

    Rate of Male Firearm Assault Injury Hospital Use per 100,000 (for those age 15-34)

    Arizona
    White 89.4
    Black 392.6
    Hispanic 235.7 (2.6x the white rate)

    California
    White 40.3
    Black 683.2
    Hispanic 173.3 (4x the white rate)

    Maryland
    White 12.6
    Black 522.4
    Hispanic 72.9 (almost 6x the white rate)

    New Jersey
    White 5.3
    Black 521.5
    Hispanic 91.3 (17x the white rate)

    North Carolina
    White 32.1
    Black 492.6
    Hispanic 195.5 (6x the white rate)

    Wisconsin
    White 7.4
    Black 554.4
    Hispanic 106.2 (14x the white rate)

    Getting shot is directly related to crime and social/family dysfunction.

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    • Replies: @C
    But, but, but didn't you see all of Ron's pretty charts and graphs????
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  162. From the Atlanta area…

    http://www.wsbtv.com/news/news/local/lawrenceville-woman-attacked-sexually-assaulted-he/nmyZB/

    Lawrenceville woman attacked, sexually assaulted in her yard

    It happened just before noon on July 11 in the Twin Branches subdivision off Braselton Highway. They described the man as a Hispanic male, medium complexion and stocky, weighing about 175 lbs. They believe he is in his mid-30s or early-40s. He was wearing a yellow-and-white striped short-sleeve polo shirt, blue jeans, black glasses and a red baseball cap. Police are urging neighbors to be extra cautious and aware. They say it is a very unusual crime because of the time of day and the brazen approach taken by the suspect.

    Gwinnett County heading up into Hall County, a long-time white majority bedroom community (no longer), is now known as a major eastern US hub of Mexican cartel illegal drug distribution hence, a rather large and growing illegal population. But I suppose the author of this post (together with Jeb!) would believe that this is all a figment of our collective imagination.

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  163. C says:
    @officious intermeddler
    The Florida, New Jersey and Georgia sites are also helpful because they have pictures of the inmates, unlike New York, Texas and California, which just have lists of names. You can look at the pictures and decide for yourself whether the person looks white. I wonder if you agree with my own impressions:

    In Florida, there was a very large number of inmates with Spanish surnames who were classified as white. I would say that about half to two-thirds of them actually do look white. (For some reason, my search for "Rodriguez" turned up a lot of Spanish surnames other than Rodriguez.)

    In New Jersey, there was a large number of inmates names named J Rodriguez who are classified as white. Almost all of them actually look Hispanic. (Searching for "Rodriguez" alone without the initial J yielded an error message saying that my search had turned up too many names.)

    In Georgia, the very large majority of the inmates named Rodriquez were classified as unknown. Most of them looked Hispanic, although a surprising (to me) number of them looked as if they were white or could have passed for white. On the other hand, a lot of those photos seemed to be overexposed, resulting in lighter-looking skin. There were not very many Rodriguezes classified as white, and I thought almost all of them actually looked white, with not just light skin but white-looking features.

    Do you know which states Ron Unz used in his sample? And did he try to double-check the data in this way or something similar? I've already spent more time on this thread than I reasonably should have, so I'm not planning to go back and read his article again to find out. If you're feeling more energetic than me, I'd be curious to know..

    In the graph with the most states that shows white-Hispanic incarceration rates 18-29, he has Florida, but doesn’t have Georgia, Michigan or New Jersey. I also checked Virginia and Virginia classified the few Hispanics they had almost always as white.

    Also, he uses Georgia and Florida as examples of states where Hispanics have lower incarceration rates than whites, when its very clear that that data is flawed.

    For me, like a lot of people on this thread, I know what I see: Hispanics come to a place and said place gets worse. Its really that simple. But what I dislike about Unz is he thinks that by throwing a volume of graphs and charts at things means he is right (look at his disgustingly snide and smug comment), when an internet commenter can prove in 10 minutes that the data he is using is obviously flawed.

    Read More
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  164. C says:
    @North Carolina Resident
    Who gets shot in America?

    Google “State Variation in Hospital Use and Cost of Firearm Assault Injury, 2010”. It’s 10 pages long. The below information appears in a graph on page four.

    Rate of Male Firearm Assault Injury Hospital Use per 100,000 (for those age 15-34)

    Arizona
    White 89.4
    Black 392.6
    Hispanic 235.7 (2.6x the white rate)

    California
    White 40.3
    Black 683.2
    Hispanic 173.3 (4x the white rate)

    Maryland
    White 12.6
    Black 522.4
    Hispanic 72.9 (almost 6x the white rate)

    New Jersey
    White 5.3
    Black 521.5
    Hispanic 91.3 (17x the white rate)

    North Carolina
    White 32.1
    Black 492.6
    Hispanic 195.5 (6x the white rate)

    Wisconsin
    White 7.4
    Black 554.4
    Hispanic 106.2 (14x the white rate)


    Getting shot is directly related to crime and social/family dysfunction.

    But, but, but didn’t you see all of Ron’s pretty charts and graphs????

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  165. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I’m sure you can play all sort of games with statistics when you have an IQ of 214. 30% of the FBI’s most wanted are illegal Hispanics. LA’s most wanted are a bunch of Mexicans. The Hispanic neighborhoods everywhere I’ve lived are crime-ridden dumps (but better than the black areas). I’ve gotten into altercations with Mexicans when they demanded that I give them fish that I catch that are out of season or over/under size limits (they have much less respect for laws).
    I’ll believe my lying eyes.

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    • Replies: @bomag
    I’m sure you can play all sort of games...

    Yeah, I don't get Ron Unz here. It is usually the Left/Libs who tell us that immigrants/minorities are crime free holy people; only committing an offense at the behest of White privilege; and we better not say anything else. Ron seems anxious to validate that narrative; maybe to gain cred with the other side so he can bargain for some concession elsewhere; a concession that will never be made.
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  166. D. K. says:
    @officious intermeddler
    By the way, thanks for actually doing some digging. I don't have any emotional investment in the answer to the question of whether the numbers are being fudged. But it drives me nuts when people respond to actual data with emotional appeals instead of with other data.

    It is not an emotional appeal to point out that manipulating statistics to pretend that a minority population has the same age and sex distributions as the majority population is methodologically bogus, when the issue at hand is not the innate criminality of those respective populations, but instead the relative amount of crime for which that minority is now responsible, compared to the majority. As my own initial comment, above, essentially asked: What do the actual demographics of Hispanics in America, generally, Hispanic immigrants to America, particularly, and Hispanic illegal aliens in America, especially, suggest about their expected crime rates, here? Since Mr. Unz is not about to regulate the incoming hordes so that their (non-ethnic) demographics– not just for age and sex, but for IQ, education, social status, etc.– match the existing demographics of White America, it is utterly irrelevant what those hordes would act like, here, if they actually did match our demographics!

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  167. bomag says:
    @Anonymous
    I’m sure you can play all sort of games with statistics when you have an IQ of 214. 30% of the FBI’s most wanted are illegal Hispanics. LA’s most wanted are a bunch of Mexicans. The Hispanic neighborhoods everywhere I’ve lived are crime-ridden dumps (but better than the black areas). I’ve gotten into altercations with Mexicans when they demanded that I give them fish that I catch that are out of season or over/under size limits (they have much less respect for laws).
    I’ll believe my lying eyes.

    I’m sure you can play all sort of games…

    Yeah, I don’t get Ron Unz here. It is usually the Left/Libs who tell us that immigrants/minorities are crime free holy people; only committing an offense at the behest of White privilege; and we better not say anything else. Ron seems anxious to validate that narrative; maybe to gain cred with the other side so he can bargain for some concession elsewhere; a concession that will never be made.

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  168. Retired says:
    @Big Bill

    Yet in all my years of living there, I never encountered a hostile or menacing situation, let alone suffered an actual criminal attack. [] So were my personal experiences atypical?
     
    No, your experiences were not "atypical". A "typical" experience is one that, say, 80%+ of the people experience. Murder is not "typical", nor is armed robbery, or rape, or burglary, or theft, for example -- even in South Africa.

    Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over. That leaves tens of thousands that have not been butchered. Butchered farmers are not "typical". Being tortured by Stalin's secret police was not "typical" in Russia, nor was being sent to the Gulag. It is not "typical" to be shot in the White House, nor is it "typical" to be shot in the ghettoes of Johannesburg.

    In the towns I grew up in, we never locked our doors. People would freely come and go. We would step into a neighbor's vacant house to borrow a cup of sugar. There had been no murders, rapes or armed robberies for the better part of a century. We left the keys in our cars and never locked them. Yet all it would take would be one very, VERY "atypical" unsolved murder to change all that for the entire town -- instantly. Would you tell them their fears were foolish since there had only been one "atypical" murder in 80 years?

    In many European cities until 40 or 50 years ago, women could walk home alone at 3 AM in what felt to them to be perfect safety. Crime was not "typical" then, nor is it "typical" now, yet European women would not dream of walking home alone at 3AM now. Are they irrational?

    How many "atypical" murders, rapes, and robberies does it take? Imagine just one 12 year old girl is abducted and raped in your small city. The defense attorney later explains that such abductions are "just a part of Mexican/Mestizo culture" and "we have to understand the defendant's behavior in light of his culture and how he was raised". So what are we to think of the Mestizos working across the street from our children's playground? Surely such attacks are "atypical", even rare, but should we not even think about the potential danger? Should we not even calculate the odds? And should we not calculate the desirability of more and more people of this alien culture living among us?

    Let us take our guidance from them. Look at the houses they live in. Do they have barred windows? Yards with 6 foot fences around them? Pit bulls? Double locks on their doors? Do they (in Mexico) have brick walls around their houses with shards of broken glass cemented on top? Why? Because they are afraid of nice Anglos breaking in? Maybe Mormon missionaries? Or because they are afraid of their own people? And if THEY are afraid of their own people, shouldn't we be? Even if the crime they fear is not "typical"?

    I, too, lived in New York City, on the ground floor of an apartment building in Riverdale. I experienced no crime, but I had a steel door with two high-tech locks, a deabolt, and steel fences (with padlocks) over each window when I moved in. It felt like a prison. Crime was "atypical" in my building and neighborhood. Should I have removed the locks? Should I have left the window fences open?

    Brilliant!

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  169. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own "Hispanic" background... as his famous father is."

    His father named his kids Emilio, Ramón, Carlos, and Renée. And all but one of them chose to keep the name Estevez. The one that did not -- guess who that is? -- has children named Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max. If you think Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic background as his father is, then again, our score-keeping is just as suspect as those who conveniently classify Mexican drug lords as white.

    In the first place, I did not opine that Charlie Sheen was as proud of his Hispanic heritage as his father, Martin, is of his own; instead, I merely said that I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own. I am sorry if your own English comprehension is so poor that you cannot distinguish between those two claims. I am not particularly proud of my being half-Slovak, either, in the way that my late mother was very proud of her being a first-generation, native-born Slovak American. I generally think of myself as just a generic American– or, increasingly, as a generic European American– since, unlike my mother, I myself am descended from a large number of different European nationalities. That certainly does not mean, however, that I am ashamed of my being half-Slovak, nor that I would try to conceal the fact that I am half-Slovak. Martin Sheen is half-Spanish and half-Irish, and very proud of both halves. Being a first-generation, native-born American, it is hardly surprising if he is more proud of his own immigrant roots than his son Charlie, or any of Charlie’s many siblings, is of his own more-attenuated roots in Europe.

    I assume that Charlie Sheen took his own stage name because (a) he was proud to be following in his famous father’s footsteps, and he wanted to acknowledge that professional heritage; and, (b) just like his actor-father before him, he did not wish to be typecast or pigeonholed by Hollywood. Neither motivation would suggest any shame on his part at his having a paternal grandfather that emigrated from Spain. I believe that his actor-brother, Emilio, has publicly stated that he did not change his name to Sheen, for professional purposes, precisely because he did not want to be seen as trying to ride on the coattails of his famous father’s successful acting career. Both decisions seem quite reasonable to me; neither suggests to me that either ethnic pride or ethnomasochism played an appreciable role in either decision.

    As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen’s supposed ethnomasochism– the fact that he did not give each of his one-eighth-Spanish children a decidedly Spanish Christian name– along with the fact that he had non-Hispanic wives who just might have had some minor input into the naming of their respective children, I would note that you chose not to list the Christian names of any of Martin Sheen’s other grandchildren, from his several other children. Is it just possible that not all of those one-eighth-Spanish grandchildren bear decidedly Spanish Christian names, either?

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    • Replies: @HA
    "...I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own..."

    Had you had any evidence of that, I think you would have provided it in your 400 word reply. As it is, the "I generally think" and "I assume" and "I am sure" amount to little in the way of counterpoint. And as for Charlie Sheen's brother, note that in addition to keeping Estevez, he also chose not to change Emilio to Miles, or whatever, unlike Carlos, who in addition to dropping Estevez decided to go with Charlie.


    "...As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen’s supposed ethnomasochism..."

    You think I anywhere claimed or supposed that Charlie Sheen was an ethnomasochist simply because he picked a more generically American name? In the very same post in which you accuse me of lacking reading comprehension? I think we can call it day right there.

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  170. vinteuil says:
    @Existential Confusion
    An axiom comes to mind, "Figures don't lie but liars figure." That could easily be changed to - statistics don't lie but liars manipulate statistics. While I do not believe Mr. Unz is a liar, I do believe that he is both basing his conclusions on suspect data, and manipulating the methodology to support his preferred conclusions.

    The "adjustment" for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets. Who, in their right mind, believes there is no manipulation of the data collected by the government? The government data does not at all reflect the reality that us peasants, who live in urban areas with high concentrations of illeagals, have to deal with on a daily basis.

    This reminds me of the old story about the wife coming home and finding her husband in bed with another woman. When the wife angrily confronts her husband he defends himself by saying, “Woman? What woman? Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?”

    “The adjustment for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets.”

    Precisely so. The single biggest problem with illegal Mexican immigrants is that they are, overwhelmingly, young men, right in the middle of their prime crime-prone years.

    But RKU seems to think that’s a good reason to let them off easy – I guess ’cause he doesn’t think they’re all that much worse than red-neck proles.

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    • Replies: @Retired
    That's why the crime rate is so low in Mexico, a more balanced demographic and all the young men coming here to earn an honest living.
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  171. Retired says:
    @vinteuil
    "The adjustment for age is a primary problem. Why would there need to be an adjustment for age if Mr. Unz was not working towards supporting a personal view, as opposed to reflecting the reality of crime on the streets."

    Precisely so. The single biggest problem with illegal Mexican immigrants is that they are, overwhelmingly, young men, right in the middle of their prime crime-prone years.

    But RKU seems to think that's a good reason to let them off easy - I guess 'cause he doesn't think they're all that much worse than red-neck proles.

    That’s why the crime rate is so low in Mexico, a more balanced demographic and all the young men coming here to earn an honest living.

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  172. Ron Unz was very pro-immigration as far back as 1999. He offered to fund a pro-immigration book.
    See another Ron Unz site, OneNation.org. Article entitled “This Man Controls California Ron Unz’s Improbable Assault on the Powers That Be in California”, by Matthew Miller, New Republic, July 19, 1999.

    {snip}
    Flush for the first time, Unz dipped into the policy arena. He called writer Peter Salins out of the blue and offered to fund a pro-immigration book that would expand on a piece Salins had written for the new republic. “It was funny,” Unz recalls, “because, when I contacted him, it took me the longest time to explain to him that I was interested in giving him money for the book because he … thought I was asking him for money to do a book.”
    {snip}

    It seems to me Ron’s article from 2010 is an attempt to justify his long-held opinion.

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  173. Nice try, but the point isn’t the overall Hispanic crime rate; it’s the crime rate among Hispanic illegal immigrants — putting aside the fact that being an illegal alien is still a crime, at least until the next executive order.

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  174. Mike1 says:

    The main thing that Ron seems to be missing is that violence in the Hispanic world is very much an inside game. As a white guy you are outside the system. Crime is typically directed at people from your own group.

    That is why black people scare white people. They are happy to direct violence (or the appearance of it) outside their world to get their way.

    I travel with my family in Mexico through territory that US Mexicans are terrified of. They have real reasons to be scared because they might be confused for an enemy. I may as well not exist.

    The savage violence in Mexico is real. It is here in the same way. Anyone with actual links to the Hispanic community knows this. Walking around saying “well my gardener seems nice” (basically Ron’s argument) is so naive as to be humorous. They are friendly people. As a community they are also pretty awful.

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  175. Ron Unz says:

    Well, I’ve still very busy with my software work, but with over 20,000 words of mostly hostile commentary, I should provide at least a few scattered responses.

    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over. The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.

    Thanks so much, Dahlia. Those long-secret DOJ statistics seemed pretty decisive to me as well, though obviously not to most of the agitated commenters here. I think I first heard about them from Jared Taylor, who dropped me a congratulatory note.

    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the [California] rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.

    Actually, those are the *male* incarceration rates. If you look more carefully at the PPIC report, Hispanic females are substantially *less* likely to be incarcerated than white females, which somewhat reduces the aggregate racial imbalance. My own calculations for California, discussed in my paper and subsequent columns, had shown that even after age-adjustment California Hispanics were somewhat more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and the PPIC estimate is about 10% higher than my own. Throughout my paper, my estimates were necessarily imprecise, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if they were off by 10% or so. So you might want to adjust all my national incarceration estimates by 10%.

    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes…So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)?

    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look “Hispanic” or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding.

    Thanks for your very helpful effort in trying to validate the ethnic incarceration data in Texas, California, and New York; I had no idea any such prison websites existed. It certainly does seem to indicate that the official ethnic classification data is reasonably accurate.

    And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.

    Thanks, Alex. But frankly I totally gave up on the Republicans about a dozen years ago…

    OVERALL:

    Once again, I’d like to emphasize that I’ve *never* claimed that Hispanics had *exactly* the same crime rates as whites—the data just isn’t strong enough for that. Instead, the data strongly indicates that Hispanics have *approximately* the same crime rates of whites of the same age and gender, say within 20-25% or so. But keep in mind that whites from one part of the country appear to have crime rates 100-150% higher than whites from another part of the country, so Hispanics seem pretty close to the center of the white crime distribution curve.

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    • Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look “Hispanic” or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.
     
    Look, Ron, you're inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator, and so of course your Hispanic crime rate is going to be low.

    Do you really believe that denominator of 53 million U.S. Hispanics are all people who look Mestizo? Fully half of those Hispanics identify as white, and if even just half of that number really look white, you still have more than twelve million Hispanics in the country who could easily pass.

    When Americans talk about the high crime rate of Hispanics, they aren't talking about people who look like Charlie Sheen or Senator Menendez or Ricky Martin. They're talking about people who look Mestizo. Yet because you've added in the several million Sheens, Menedezes, and Martins to your calculation, you've artificially driven down the Hispanic crime rate that Americans actually perceive.
    , @bomag
    Ron Unz, your analysis dismisses federal incarceration. Dismisses it snarkily as "illegal nannies convicted of illegal nannying."

    Complaining about Hispanic crime is a proxy for complaining about quality of life issues. Collected stats might reflect similar violent crime levels, but they do not capture the low level anti-social activities that reduce the quality of life.

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: "agitated commenters", " mentally deranged reactionary kooks". Thanks for even more boot in the face.
    , @Bob who Razib says is such an asshole
    I hope you would accept that it is not agitated comment for people to resent ALL the crime of people who have no right to be here irrespective of the rate at which they commit it. Each one is a crime that should not be happening in our society. Perhaps I am wrong, but the point of your Hispanic criminal parity articles seems to be that we should just get over it and accept the huge wave of Hispanic illegal immigration and get with an amnesty program. If I am wrong in that please accept my apology.

    I have previously suggested a new immigration policy open to all Mexicans and Canadians that can pass a criminal background check. With employment conditions that they be paid at least 1.5 times the US minimum wage and extra employment taxes to be used to offset the impact to US workers displaced and full citizenship after 5 years of employment. With this policy we can then see how many jobs there really are that Americans just wont do.
    , @North Carolina Resident
    Ron
    Referencing post 175, specifically your reply to officious intermeddler - It is not that White criminals are incorrectly classified as Hispanics. Hispanics are incorrectly classified as White. You can see for yourself in less than five minutes.

    Go to the Federal Bureau of Prisons web site, www dot BOP dot gov. Choose Inmates, Find an Inmate, Find by Name. Randomly select Spanish first and last names.
    I used Juan, Jose, Carlos, Pedro, Garcia, Lopez and Rodriguez. Nearly 100% are White. A tiny fraction are Black. There are no Hispanics. In fact, the four Race categories are American Indian, Asian, Black, and White. Hispanic is not a category.
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  176. Google University of Florida Shoplifting Study.

    http://news.ufl.edu/archive/2005/08/study-shows-shoplifters-more-readily-identified-by-behavior-not-race.html

    “Overall, blacks and Hispanics were no more likely than whites to steal merchandise. However, when race and gender were examined by subcategory, Hispanic females stole the most, shoplifting at more than seven times the rate of white females, he said.” (“He” is Richard Hollinger, a UF criminologist and one of the study’s researchers.)

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  177. @Ron Unz
    Well, I've still very busy with my software work, but with over 20,000 words of mostly hostile commentary, I should provide at least a few scattered responses.

    @Dahlia


    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over. The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
     
    Thanks so much, Dahlia. Those long-secret DOJ statistics seemed pretty decisive to me as well, though obviously not to most of the agitated commenters here. I think I first heard about them from Jared Taylor, who dropped me a congratulatory note.

    @Lot


    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the [California] rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.
     
    Actually, those are the *male* incarceration rates. If you look more carefully at the PPIC report, Hispanic females are substantially *less* likely to be incarcerated than white females, which somewhat reduces the aggregate racial imbalance. My own calculations for California, discussed in my paper and subsequent columns, had shown that even after age-adjustment California Hispanics were somewhat more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and the PPIC estimate is about 10% higher than my own. Throughout my paper, my estimates were necessarily imprecise, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were off by 10% or so. So you might want to adjust all my national incarceration estimates by 10%.

    @Pincher Martin


    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes...So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)?
     
    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look "Hispanic" or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    @officious intermeddler


    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding.
     
    Thanks for your very helpful effort in trying to validate the ethnic incarceration data in Texas, California, and New York; I had no idea any such prison websites existed. It certainly does seem to indicate that the official ethnic classification data is reasonably accurate.

    @Alex M


    And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
     
    Thanks, Alex. But frankly I totally gave up on the Republicans about a dozen years ago...


    OVERALL:

    Once again, I'd like to emphasize that I've *never* claimed that Hispanics had *exactly* the same crime rates as whites---the data just isn't strong enough for that. Instead, the data strongly indicates that Hispanics have *approximately* the same crime rates of whites of the same age and gender, say within 20-25% or so. But keep in mind that whites from one part of the country appear to have crime rates 100-150% higher than whites from another part of the country, so Hispanics seem pretty close to the center of the white crime distribution curve.

    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look “Hispanic” or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    Look, Ron, you’re inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator, and so of course your Hispanic crime rate is going to be low.

    Do you really believe that denominator of 53 million U.S. Hispanics are all people who look Mestizo? Fully half of those Hispanics identify as white, and if even just half of that number really look white, you still have more than twelve million Hispanics in the country who could easily pass.

    When Americans talk about the high crime rate of Hispanics, they aren’t talking about people who look like Charlie Sheen or Senator Menendez or Ricky Martin. They’re talking about people who look Mestizo. Yet because you’ve added in the several million Sheens, Menedezes, and Martins to your calculation, you’ve artificially driven down the Hispanic crime rate that Americans actually perceive.

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    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    There's a simple way to get around the problem of ethnic underreporting and misreporting.

    1. Create a data base of large American cities.
    2. Input the ethnic demographics of each city.
    3. Run a correlation between ethnic makeup and crime rate.

    This method doesn't rely on classification biases.

    La Griffe did run the correlation and he found Hispanics and whites have similar crime rates. Blacks were higher. Asians were lower.
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  178. @Existential Confusion

    "I don’t know about the charts, graphs and official records, but I do know that the town where I grew up is a far worse place now that hispanics make up a large part of the population."
     
    I have exactly the same experience. I guess we are just two uninlightened cretins, who are to stupid to understand that we should believe statistics, not our own experiences. Statistics are reality.

    “I have exactly the same experience. I guess we are just two uninlightened cretins, who are to stupid to understand that we should believe statistics, not our own experiences. Statistics are reality.”

    I’d be curious to know what the stats are in my hometown these days. It’s now a far worse place visually and in every other way. I read in the paper while visiting a few years back that one of the local elementary schools had a 75% student turnover the previous year, and that national gangs are now recruiting in the middle and high schools. I graduated high school with half of my kindergarten class (some of the others went to a neighboring high school) and getting caught chewing gum in class was a big deal for everyone but the stoners in high school. Bodies have been found in the woods where I used to safely play, and sirens blare at all hours now when I visit. It’s pretty obvious to anyone still living in the area what has changed and why.

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  179. @Pincher Martin

    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look “Hispanic” or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.
     
    Look, Ron, you're inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator, and so of course your Hispanic crime rate is going to be low.

    Do you really believe that denominator of 53 million U.S. Hispanics are all people who look Mestizo? Fully half of those Hispanics identify as white, and if even just half of that number really look white, you still have more than twelve million Hispanics in the country who could easily pass.

    When Americans talk about the high crime rate of Hispanics, they aren't talking about people who look like Charlie Sheen or Senator Menendez or Ricky Martin. They're talking about people who look Mestizo. Yet because you've added in the several million Sheens, Menedezes, and Martins to your calculation, you've artificially driven down the Hispanic crime rate that Americans actually perceive.

    There’s a simple way to get around the problem of ethnic underreporting and misreporting.

    1. Create a data base of large American cities.
    2. Input the ethnic demographics of each city.
    3. Run a correlation between ethnic makeup and crime rate.

    This method doesn’t rely on classification biases.

    La Griffe did run the correlation and he found Hispanics and whites have similar crime rates. Blacks were higher. Asians were lower.

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    • Replies: @Pincher Martin
    Johnny Walker,

    The same problem remains. La Griffe didn't fix anything.

    More than any other major ethnic identity in the United States, Hispanic is both a social construction and a specific physical type. It refers both to Spanish speakers (and the recent descendants of Spanish speakers) who belong to different races *and* to a specific racial category that is readily identifiable as mestizo because the people in it have a heavy dose of Native American ancestry.

    These non-mestizo Hispanics are not minor exceptions in the way we might occasionally hear of some Asian, white, or black American who can pass for an individual of another race. They represent a significant if still decidedly minority portion of the U.S. Hispanic population. Neither Ron nor La Griffe's calculations consider that problem.

    Most Hispanics in the U.S. are clearly identifiable as mestizo, but there are still millions who are not. These people may not look as Anglo as, say, this lady, but even Freddie Prinze Jr looks European in a way that is not necessarily associated with anything having to do with Spain and its former colonies. Prinze could pass for an Italian or even a Frenchman.

    So when Americans worry about Hispanic crime, they're obviously not talking about these Hispanic groups who blend so easily into the U.S. white population. They're talking about the visible Mestizo underclass. This large group is poorer, less intelligent, and almost certainly more inclined to criminal activity than what - for lack of a better word - I'll call white Hispanic groups. More importantly, they're easily identifiable as Hispanic in a way some Hispanics are not.

    When someone from a group like this steals your car, they could be a third-generation American and speak unaccented English, and you could still easily identity them as Hispanic. But in the less likely case that a younger version of someone from this group steals your car, you're not likely to identify them as Hispanic.

    , @Pincher Martin
    To follow up, here's the problem with VerBruggen's (and Ron's) analysis.

    He uses "victim surveys" which rely on the *perceived* race/Hispanic origin of the offender, but then divides it by the U.S. Census numbers which allow for anyone to identity as Hispanic.

    So we get...


    Perceived Hispanic offenders ÷ Self-identified Hispanics in U.S. population = low Hispanic crime rate.
     
    But what if we were able to make the calculation in this way?

    Perceived Hispanic offenders ÷ *Perceived* number of Hispanics in U.S. population = much higher Hispanic crime rate.
     
    The key to just how much higher comes down to how many Americans identify as Hispanic on their census form, but still look either white or black to most other Americans.

    I have no idea what that number is, but I'm guessing it's probably in the high millions. I do know that half of all Hispanics in the U.S. identify as white. Even if many of those "whites" still look mestizo, that would still leave millions who do not.

    Like I said, Ron is "...inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator..." to come up with the Hispanic crime rate he likes.

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  180. @JohnnyWalker123
    There's a simple way to get around the problem of ethnic underreporting and misreporting.

    1. Create a data base of large American cities.
    2. Input the ethnic demographics of each city.
    3. Run a correlation between ethnic makeup and crime rate.

    This method doesn't rely on classification biases.

    La Griffe did run the correlation and he found Hispanics and whites have similar crime rates. Blacks were higher. Asians were lower.

    Johnny Walker,

    The same problem remains. La Griffe didn’t fix anything.

    More than any other major ethnic identity in the United States, Hispanic is both a social construction and a specific physical type. It refers both to Spanish speakers (and the recent descendants of Spanish speakers) who belong to different races *and* to a specific racial category that is readily identifiable as mestizo because the people in it have a heavy dose of Native American ancestry.

    These non-mestizo Hispanics are not minor exceptions in the way we might occasionally hear of some Asian, white, or black American who can pass for an individual of another race. They represent a significant if still decidedly minority portion of the U.S. Hispanic population. Neither Ron nor La Griffe’s calculations consider that problem.

    Most Hispanics in the U.S. are clearly identifiable as mestizo, but there are still millions who are not. These people may not look as Anglo as, say, this lady, but even Freddie Prinze Jr looks European in a way that is not necessarily associated with anything having to do with Spain and its former colonies. Prinze could pass for an Italian or even a Frenchman.

    So when Americans worry about Hispanic crime, they’re obviously not talking about these Hispanic groups who blend so easily into the U.S. white population. They’re talking about the visible Mestizo underclass. This large group is poorer, less intelligent, and almost certainly more inclined to criminal activity than what – for lack of a better word – I’ll call white Hispanic groups. More importantly, they’re easily identifiable as Hispanic in a way some Hispanics are not.

    When someone from a group like this steals your car, they could be a third-generation American and speak unaccented English, and you could still easily identity them as Hispanic. But in the less likely case that a younger version of someone from this group steals your car, you’re not likely to identify them as Hispanic.

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  181. Truth says:
    @Big Bill

    Yet in all my years of living there, I never encountered a hostile or menacing situation, let alone suffered an actual criminal attack. [] So were my personal experiences atypical?
     
    No, your experiences were not "atypical". A "typical" experience is one that, say, 80%+ of the people experience. Murder is not "typical", nor is armed robbery, or rape, or burglary, or theft, for example -- even in South Africa.

    Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over. That leaves tens of thousands that have not been butchered. Butchered farmers are not "typical". Being tortured by Stalin's secret police was not "typical" in Russia, nor was being sent to the Gulag. It is not "typical" to be shot in the White House, nor is it "typical" to be shot in the ghettoes of Johannesburg.

    In the towns I grew up in, we never locked our doors. People would freely come and go. We would step into a neighbor's vacant house to borrow a cup of sugar. There had been no murders, rapes or armed robberies for the better part of a century. We left the keys in our cars and never locked them. Yet all it would take would be one very, VERY "atypical" unsolved murder to change all that for the entire town -- instantly. Would you tell them their fears were foolish since there had only been one "atypical" murder in 80 years?

    In many European cities until 40 or 50 years ago, women could walk home alone at 3 AM in what felt to them to be perfect safety. Crime was not "typical" then, nor is it "typical" now, yet European women would not dream of walking home alone at 3AM now. Are they irrational?

    How many "atypical" murders, rapes, and robberies does it take? Imagine just one 12 year old girl is abducted and raped in your small city. The defense attorney later explains that such abductions are "just a part of Mexican/Mestizo culture" and "we have to understand the defendant's behavior in light of his culture and how he was raised". So what are we to think of the Mestizos working across the street from our children's playground? Surely such attacks are "atypical", even rare, but should we not even think about the potential danger? Should we not even calculate the odds? And should we not calculate the desirability of more and more people of this alien culture living among us?

    Let us take our guidance from them. Look at the houses they live in. Do they have barred windows? Yards with 6 foot fences around them? Pit bulls? Double locks on their doors? Do they (in Mexico) have brick walls around their houses with shards of broken glass cemented on top? Why? Because they are afraid of nice Anglos breaking in? Maybe Mormon missionaries? Or because they are afraid of their own people? And if THEY are afraid of their own people, shouldn't we be? Even if the crime they fear is not "typical"?

    I, too, lived in New York City, on the ground floor of an apartment building in Riverdale. I experienced no crime, but I had a steel door with two high-tech locks, a deabolt, and steel fences (with padlocks) over each window when I moved in. It felt like a prison. Crime was "atypical" in my building and neighborhood. Should I have removed the locks? Should I have left the window fences open?

    “Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over”

    Well, according to wikipedia, your numbers are a little,…misleading

    “South African farmers have suffered from attacks for many years, especially wealthier farmers.[1] Fact checking organisation Africa Check has “Whites are far less likely to be murdered than their black or coloured counterparts,” Lizette Lancaster, who manages the Institute for Security Studies crime and justice hub, told Africa Check. This is supported by an analysis of a national sample of 1378 murder dockets conducted by police in 2009. In 86.9% of the cases, the victims were Africans. Whites accounted for 1.8% of the cases (although whites make up 8.85% of the population)..”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

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    • Replies: @bomag
    Well, according to wikipedia, your numbers are a little,…misleading

    So everything is cool in South Africa? It is a nice place to live? It is now your model of what a society should be?

    It looks like they are running out of white people to victimize. Tsk.

    From your link: According to media reports, as of December 2011, approximately 3,158 – 3,811 South African farmers have been murdered in these attacks.

    I suspect that someone is designated a South African farmer in the media only if they are white.

    Your cited passage was of all murder dockets. Considering that there about 20,000 murders a year in SA, that leaves 400 whites a year going early to the great beyond. It has been 20 years since the end of apartheid, so 8000 whites in total. Half being farmers seems to be in the ball park.

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  182. bomag says:
    @Truth
    "Only 4000 white farmers have been butchered in South Africa since Mandela took over"

    Well, according to wikipedia, your numbers are a little,...misleading

    "South African farmers have suffered from attacks for many years, especially wealthier farmers.[1] Fact checking organisation Africa Check has “Whites are far less likely to be murdered than their black or coloured counterparts,” Lizette Lancaster, who manages the Institute for Security Studies crime and justice hub, told Africa Check. This is supported by an analysis of a national sample of 1378 murder dockets conducted by police in 2009. In 86.9% of the cases, the victims were Africans. Whites accounted for 1.8% of the cases (although whites make up 8.85% of the population).."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_African_farm_attacks

    Well, according to wikipedia, your numbers are a little,…misleading

    So everything is cool in South Africa? It is a nice place to live? It is now your model of what a society should be?

    It looks like they are running out of white people to victimize. Tsk.

    From your link: According to media reports, as of December 2011, approximately 3,158 – 3,811 South African farmers have been murdered in these attacks.

    I suspect that someone is designated a South African farmer in the media only if they are white.

    Your cited passage was of all murder dockets. Considering that there about 20,000 murders a year in SA, that leaves 400 whites a year going early to the great beyond. It has been 20 years since the end of apartheid, so 8000 whites in total. Half being farmers seems to be in the ball park.

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  183. bomag says:
    @Ron Unz
    Well, I've still very busy with my software work, but with over 20,000 words of mostly hostile commentary, I should provide at least a few scattered responses.

    @Dahlia


    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over. The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
     
    Thanks so much, Dahlia. Those long-secret DOJ statistics seemed pretty decisive to me as well, though obviously not to most of the agitated commenters here. I think I first heard about them from Jared Taylor, who dropped me a congratulatory note.

    @Lot


    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the [California] rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.
     
    Actually, those are the *male* incarceration rates. If you look more carefully at the PPIC report, Hispanic females are substantially *less* likely to be incarcerated than white females, which somewhat reduces the aggregate racial imbalance. My own calculations for California, discussed in my paper and subsequent columns, had shown that even after age-adjustment California Hispanics were somewhat more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and the PPIC estimate is about 10% higher than my own. Throughout my paper, my estimates were necessarily imprecise, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were off by 10% or so. So you might want to adjust all my national incarceration estimates by 10%.

    @Pincher Martin


    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes...So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)?
     
    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look "Hispanic" or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    @officious intermeddler


    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding.
     
    Thanks for your very helpful effort in trying to validate the ethnic incarceration data in Texas, California, and New York; I had no idea any such prison websites existed. It certainly does seem to indicate that the official ethnic classification data is reasonably accurate.

    @Alex M


    And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
     
    Thanks, Alex. But frankly I totally gave up on the Republicans about a dozen years ago...


    OVERALL:

    Once again, I'd like to emphasize that I've *never* claimed that Hispanics had *exactly* the same crime rates as whites---the data just isn't strong enough for that. Instead, the data strongly indicates that Hispanics have *approximately* the same crime rates of whites of the same age and gender, say within 20-25% or so. But keep in mind that whites from one part of the country appear to have crime rates 100-150% higher than whites from another part of the country, so Hispanics seem pretty close to the center of the white crime distribution curve.

    Ron Unz, your analysis dismisses federal incarceration. Dismisses it snarkily as “illegal nannies convicted of illegal nannying.”

    Complaining about Hispanic crime is a proxy for complaining about quality of life issues. Collected stats might reflect similar violent crime levels, but they do not capture the low level anti-social activities that reduce the quality of life.

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: “agitated commenters”, ” mentally deranged reactionary kooks”. Thanks for even more boot in the face.

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    • Replies: @Existential Confusion

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: “agitated commenters”, ” mentally deranged reactionary kooks”. Thanks for even more boot in the face.
     
    The problem with all you ungrateful peasants is that you have to learn to stop questioning your betters. They know what’s best for you. Just turn up your unwashed faces to receive their wisdom as it falls upon you like the gentle rain, at least that’s what they want you to think - while they piss down your neck.
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  184. @JohnnyWalker123
    There's a simple way to get around the problem of ethnic underreporting and misreporting.

    1. Create a data base of large American cities.
    2. Input the ethnic demographics of each city.
    3. Run a correlation between ethnic makeup and crime rate.

    This method doesn't rely on classification biases.

    La Griffe did run the correlation and he found Hispanics and whites have similar crime rates. Blacks were higher. Asians were lower.

    To follow up, here’s the problem with VerBruggen’s (and Ron’s) analysis.

    He uses “victim surveys” which rely on the *perceived* race/Hispanic origin of the offender, but then divides it by the U.S. Census numbers which allow for anyone to identity as Hispanic.

    So we get…

    Perceived Hispanic offenders ÷ Self-identified Hispanics in U.S. population = low Hispanic crime rate.

    But what if we were able to make the calculation in this way?

    Perceived Hispanic offenders ÷ *Perceived* number of Hispanics in U.S. population = much higher Hispanic crime rate.

    The key to just how much higher comes down to how many Americans identify as Hispanic on their census form, but still look either white or black to most other Americans.

    I have no idea what that number is, but I’m guessing it’s probably in the high millions. I do know that half of all Hispanics in the U.S. identify as white. Even if many of those “whites” still look mestizo, that would still leave millions who do not.

    Like I said, Ron is “…inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator…” to come up with the Hispanic crime rate he likes.

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  185. Aurelius says:

    Gee, I am so relieved that illegal Mexican immigrants commit a similar number of crimes as whites in the same age range! This changes the ongoing demographic replacement of whites, how?

    I would not want the country to be overrun by peaceful Asians either.

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    • Replies: @Nico

    I would not want the country to be overrun by peaceful Asians either.
     
    To paraphrase Thomas Fleming from a few years back: "If we could invite 500 million Martians to settle in the United States, and they were all intelligent, hard-working, law-abiding and respectful, would that be a good thing for this nation, and if so what do you mean by 'nation'?"
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  186. This may sound dumb, but is there a way to identify offenders by their national origin or the national origin of their parents and grandparents? Can that be reliably tracked. Most hispanics are first and second generation.

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  187. HA says:
    @D. K.
    In the first place, I did not opine that Charlie Sheen was as proud of his Hispanic heritage as his father, Martin, is of his own; instead, I merely said that I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own. I am sorry if your own English comprehension is so poor that you cannot distinguish between those two claims. I am not particularly proud of my being half-Slovak, either, in the way that my late mother was very proud of her being a first-generation, native-born Slovak American. I generally think of myself as just a generic American-- or, increasingly, as a generic European American-- since, unlike my mother, I myself am descended from a large number of different European nationalities. That certainly does not mean, however, that I am ashamed of my being half-Slovak, nor that I would try to conceal the fact that I am half-Slovak. Martin Sheen is half-Spanish and half-Irish, and very proud of both halves. Being a first-generation, native-born American, it is hardly surprising if he is more proud of his own immigrant roots than his son Charlie, or any of Charlie's many siblings, is of his own more-attenuated roots in Europe.

    I assume that Charlie Sheen took his own stage name because (a) he was proud to be following in his famous father's footsteps, and he wanted to acknowledge that professional heritage; and, (b) just like his actor-father before him, he did not wish to be typecast or pigeonholed by Hollywood. Neither motivation would suggest any shame on his part at his having a paternal grandfather that emigrated from Spain. I believe that his actor-brother, Emilio, has publicly stated that he did not change his name to Sheen, for professional purposes, precisely because he did not want to be seen as trying to ride on the coattails of his famous father's successful acting career. Both decisions seem quite reasonable to me; neither suggests to me that either ethnic pride or ethnomasochism played an appreciable role in either decision.

    As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen's supposed ethnomasochism-- the fact that he did not give each of his one-eighth-Spanish children a decidedly Spanish Christian name-- along with the fact that he had non-Hispanic wives who just might have had some minor input into the naming of their respective children, I would note that you chose not to list the Christian names of any of Martin Sheen's other grandchildren, from his several other children. Is it just possible that not all of those one-eighth-Spanish grandchildren bear decidedly Spanish Christian names, either?

    “…I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own…”

    Had you had any evidence of that, I think you would have provided it in your 400 word reply. As it is, the “I generally think” and “I assume” and “I am sure” amount to little in the way of counterpoint. And as for Charlie Sheen’s brother, note that in addition to keeping Estevez, he also chose not to change Emilio to Miles, or whatever, unlike Carlos, who in addition to dropping Estevez decided to go with Charlie.

    “…As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen’s supposed ethnomasochism…”

    You think I anywhere claimed or supposed that Charlie Sheen was an ethnomasochist simply because he picked a more generically American name? In the very same post in which you accuse me of lacking reading comprehension? I think we can call it day right there.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    You yourself provided not a shred of credible evidence that Charlie Sheen is any less proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage than are his many siblings-- or even his father, come to that! His father took a stage name for a very practical reason; there is no reason to assume that Charlie Sheen, following in his famous actor-father's footsteps, did any different. His father-- whose legal name is still his original Spanish-language birth name-- gave his children Spanish names while his own immigrant-Spanish father was still alive (d. 1974); his immigrant-Irish mother had died when Martin Sheen was about eleven years old. Charlie Sheen has children from a high-school girlfriend and two of his three wives, none of whom have Spanish names themselves; he and those three women declined to give any of their one-eighth-Spanish children Spanish Christian names. Oh, the horror! The self-abnegation!! The cultural genocide on display in this one-quarter-Spanish man-of-color's diseased and self-hating mind!!! Meanwhile, if you look at the names of Charlie Sheen's nephews and nieces, sired or birthed by his own siblings, you will find that those who have retained the Estevez name professionally (none of whom, of course, is anywhere near as successful as either of the two practical-minded actors in the family who renamed themselves Sheen, for professional purposes!) have produced several offspring; only one girl was given a decidedly Spanish Christian name. That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage-- the whole purpose of the exercise, for those here wishing to recheck the tape, having been to discredit my notion that Charlie Sheen's criminal record should have been tallied in the "Brown" bin, rather than in the "White" bin, by the authorities in California and New York (and wherever else he might have been arrested, during his colorful and celebrated private life).
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  188. @bomag
    Ron Unz, your analysis dismisses federal incarceration. Dismisses it snarkily as "illegal nannies convicted of illegal nannying."

    Complaining about Hispanic crime is a proxy for complaining about quality of life issues. Collected stats might reflect similar violent crime levels, but they do not capture the low level anti-social activities that reduce the quality of life.

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: "agitated commenters", " mentally deranged reactionary kooks". Thanks for even more boot in the face.

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: “agitated commenters”, ” mentally deranged reactionary kooks”. Thanks for even more boot in the face.

    The problem with all you ungrateful peasants is that you have to learn to stop questioning your betters. They know what’s best for you. Just turn up your unwashed faces to receive their wisdom as it falls upon you like the gentle rain, at least that’s what they want you to think – while they piss down your neck.

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    • Replies: @OilcanFloyd
    That should be on a t-shirt.
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  189. @Existential Confusion

    And we get the usual mockery and dismissal of our concerns: “agitated commenters”, ” mentally deranged reactionary kooks”. Thanks for even more boot in the face.
     
    The problem with all you ungrateful peasants is that you have to learn to stop questioning your betters. They know what’s best for you. Just turn up your unwashed faces to receive their wisdom as it falls upon you like the gentle rain, at least that’s what they want you to think - while they piss down your neck.

    That should be on a t-shirt.

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  190. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "...I was sure that he was proud of his, as his father is of his own..."

    Had you had any evidence of that, I think you would have provided it in your 400 word reply. As it is, the "I generally think" and "I assume" and "I am sure" amount to little in the way of counterpoint. And as for Charlie Sheen's brother, note that in addition to keeping Estevez, he also chose not to change Emilio to Miles, or whatever, unlike Carlos, who in addition to dropping Estevez decided to go with Charlie.


    "...As for your proffered evidence for Charlie Sheen’s supposed ethnomasochism..."

    You think I anywhere claimed or supposed that Charlie Sheen was an ethnomasochist simply because he picked a more generically American name? In the very same post in which you accuse me of lacking reading comprehension? I think we can call it day right there.

    You yourself provided not a shred of credible evidence that Charlie Sheen is any less proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage than are his many siblings– or even his father, come to that! His father took a stage name for a very practical reason; there is no reason to assume that Charlie Sheen, following in his famous actor-father’s footsteps, did any different. His father– whose legal name is still his original Spanish-language birth name– gave his children Spanish names while his own immigrant-Spanish father was still alive (d. 1974); his immigrant-Irish mother had died when Martin Sheen was about eleven years old. Charlie Sheen has children from a high-school girlfriend and two of his three wives, none of whom have Spanish names themselves; he and those three women declined to give any of their one-eighth-Spanish children Spanish Christian names. Oh, the horror! The self-abnegation!! The cultural genocide on display in this one-quarter-Spanish man-of-color’s diseased and self-hating mind!!! Meanwhile, if you look at the names of Charlie Sheen’s nephews and nieces, sired or birthed by his own siblings, you will find that those who have retained the Estevez name professionally (none of whom, of course, is anywhere near as successful as either of the two practical-minded actors in the family who renamed themselves Sheen, for professional purposes!) have produced several offspring; only one girl was given a decidedly Spanish Christian name. That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage– the whole purpose of the exercise, for those here wishing to recheck the tape, having been to discredit my notion that Charlie Sheen’s criminal record should have been tallied in the “Brown” bin, rather than in the “White” bin, by the authorities in California and New York (and wherever else he might have been arrested, during his colorful and celebrated private life).

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    From the Wikipedia.org entry for Martin Sheen:

    ***

    Sheen became a grandfather at age 43 when his son Emilio had a son named Taylor Levi with his girlfriend, Carey Salley. Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, the other nine being: Paloma Rae (from Emilio), Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max (from Charlie) and Katherine, Luis Jr. and Christopher (from Ramon) and one great-granddaughter Luna (from Cassandra).[54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62]

    ***

    So, I should have noted that "Luis Jr." was named after his father Ramon's own middle name, and then credited that as a decidedly (albeit not uniquely) Spanish Christian name (even if it is more likely just the result of paternal pride, rather than of ethnic pride in Ramon's Spanish heritage), bringing the non-Charlie total to two out of five grandchildren of Martin Sheen with decidedly Spanish Christian names (although, on the other hand, I do not believe that Paloma Rae's middle name has any connection to Spanish or to Spain itself!?!). Lola, however, turns out, most often, to be a Spanish dimunutive for Dolores; so, I should have credited Charlie himself with one out of five children with a decidedly Spanish Christian name, making the score, to date, 2-1 rather than 1-0, naming-wise. In addition, Charlie's oldest child, a bastard daughter, bears (or, at least, bore) his original Spanish surname of Estevez; and, her own child bears the Spanish or Italian Christian (?) name of Luna, as well. All in all, not much in the way of evidence that Carlos, among the four offspring of Martin Sheen (ne Estevez) and his wife, has been any less attached to his own Spanish heritage than his siblings are to theirs, as someone snidely insinuated, above!

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  191. Nico says:
    @Aurelius
    Gee, I am so relieved that illegal Mexican immigrants commit a similar number of crimes as whites in the same age range! This changes the ongoing demographic replacement of whites, how?

    I would not want the country to be overrun by peaceful Asians either.

    I would not want the country to be overrun by peaceful Asians either.

    To paraphrase Thomas Fleming from a few years back: “If we could invite 500 million Martians to settle in the United States, and they were all intelligent, hard-working, law-abiding and respectful, would that be a good thing for this nation, and if so what do you mean by ‘nation’?”

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  192. D. K. says:
    @D. K.
    You yourself provided not a shred of credible evidence that Charlie Sheen is any less proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage than are his many siblings-- or even his father, come to that! His father took a stage name for a very practical reason; there is no reason to assume that Charlie Sheen, following in his famous actor-father's footsteps, did any different. His father-- whose legal name is still his original Spanish-language birth name-- gave his children Spanish names while his own immigrant-Spanish father was still alive (d. 1974); his immigrant-Irish mother had died when Martin Sheen was about eleven years old. Charlie Sheen has children from a high-school girlfriend and two of his three wives, none of whom have Spanish names themselves; he and those three women declined to give any of their one-eighth-Spanish children Spanish Christian names. Oh, the horror! The self-abnegation!! The cultural genocide on display in this one-quarter-Spanish man-of-color's diseased and self-hating mind!!! Meanwhile, if you look at the names of Charlie Sheen's nephews and nieces, sired or birthed by his own siblings, you will find that those who have retained the Estevez name professionally (none of whom, of course, is anywhere near as successful as either of the two practical-minded actors in the family who renamed themselves Sheen, for professional purposes!) have produced several offspring; only one girl was given a decidedly Spanish Christian name. That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish, and thus (in the eyes of our government) Hispanic, heritage-- the whole purpose of the exercise, for those here wishing to recheck the tape, having been to discredit my notion that Charlie Sheen's criminal record should have been tallied in the "Brown" bin, rather than in the "White" bin, by the authorities in California and New York (and wherever else he might have been arrested, during his colorful and celebrated private life).

    From the Wikipedia.org entry for Martin Sheen:

    ***

    Sheen became a grandfather at age 43 when his son Emilio had a son named Taylor Levi with his girlfriend, Carey Salley. Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, the other nine being: Paloma Rae (from Emilio), Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max (from Charlie) and Katherine, Luis Jr. and Christopher (from Ramon) and one great-granddaughter Luna (from Cassandra).[54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62]

    ***

    So, I should have noted that “Luis Jr.” was named after his father Ramon’s own middle name, and then credited that as a decidedly (albeit not uniquely) Spanish Christian name (even if it is more likely just the result of paternal pride, rather than of ethnic pride in Ramon’s Spanish heritage), bringing the non-Charlie total to two out of five grandchildren of Martin Sheen with decidedly Spanish Christian names (although, on the other hand, I do not believe that Paloma Rae’s middle name has any connection to Spanish or to Spain itself!?!). Lola, however, turns out, most often, to be a Spanish dimunutive for Dolores; so, I should have credited Charlie himself with one out of five children with a decidedly Spanish Christian name, making the score, to date, 2-1 rather than 1-0, naming-wise. In addition, Charlie’s oldest child, a bastard daughter, bears (or, at least, bore) his original Spanish surname of Estevez; and, her own child bears the Spanish or Italian Christian (?) name of Luna, as well. All in all, not much in the way of evidence that Carlos, among the four offspring of Martin Sheen (ne Estevez) and his wife, has been any less attached to his own Spanish heritage than his siblings are to theirs, as someone snidely insinuated, above!

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    • Replies: @HA
    "Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, ..."

    I'm afraid changing the subject will not help. The original claim was that Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father. Absent of any direct pipeline into Charlie Sheen's mind, I countered with the data at hand, i.e., pointing out the names of Charlie's kids in comparison with the names his father chose for Charlie and his siblings. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by bringing in the names of Martin Sheen's other grandchildren, not to mention loaded hysterical words like self-hating, abnegation, and ethnomasochism, but I suspect you have simply decided to thrash about and blow smoke, as opposed to admitting your original claim has little that you can provide to back it.


    "That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish,..."

    Again -- look to your own reading comprehension before criticizing that of others. I nowhere claimed that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish anything. I merely pointed out that the evidence I gave indicates that the pride his father has is evidently greater, so that claiming that their pride is the same is going out on a limb. Whether that amounts to Charlie Sheen not being proud, or simply being less proud than someone else, is a separate matter. Given all the drama you're introducing, this seems to touching a nerve or something. Perhaps if you stick to what was actually said, you'll be able to calm down.

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  193. HA says:
    @D. K.
    From the Wikipedia.org entry for Martin Sheen:

    ***

    Sheen became a grandfather at age 43 when his son Emilio had a son named Taylor Levi with his girlfriend, Carey Salley. Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, the other nine being: Paloma Rae (from Emilio), Cassandra, Sam J, Lola Rose, Bob and Max (from Charlie) and Katherine, Luis Jr. and Christopher (from Ramon) and one great-granddaughter Luna (from Cassandra).[54][55][56][57][58][59][60][61][62]

    ***

    So, I should have noted that "Luis Jr." was named after his father Ramon's own middle name, and then credited that as a decidedly (albeit not uniquely) Spanish Christian name (even if it is more likely just the result of paternal pride, rather than of ethnic pride in Ramon's Spanish heritage), bringing the non-Charlie total to two out of five grandchildren of Martin Sheen with decidedly Spanish Christian names (although, on the other hand, I do not believe that Paloma Rae's middle name has any connection to Spanish or to Spain itself!?!). Lola, however, turns out, most often, to be a Spanish dimunutive for Dolores; so, I should have credited Charlie himself with one out of five children with a decidedly Spanish Christian name, making the score, to date, 2-1 rather than 1-0, naming-wise. In addition, Charlie's oldest child, a bastard daughter, bears (or, at least, bore) his original Spanish surname of Estevez; and, her own child bears the Spanish or Italian Christian (?) name of Luna, as well. All in all, not much in the way of evidence that Carlos, among the four offspring of Martin Sheen (ne Estevez) and his wife, has been any less attached to his own Spanish heritage than his siblings are to theirs, as someone snidely insinuated, above!

    “Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, …”

    I’m afraid changing the subject will not help. The original claim was that Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father. Absent of any direct pipeline into Charlie Sheen’s mind, I countered with the data at hand, i.e., pointing out the names of Charlie’s kids in comparison with the names his father chose for Charlie and his siblings. I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove by bringing in the names of Martin Sheen’s other grandchildren, not to mention loaded hysterical words like self-hating, abnegation, and ethnomasochism, but I suspect you have simply decided to thrash about and blow smoke, as opposed to admitting your original claim has little that you can provide to back it.

    “That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish,…”

    Again — look to your own reading comprehension before criticizing that of others. I nowhere claimed that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish anything. I merely pointed out that the evidence I gave indicates that the pride his father has is evidently greater, so that claiming that their pride is the same is going out on a limb. Whether that amounts to Charlie Sheen not being proud, or simply being less proud than someone else, is a separate matter. Given all the drama you’re introducing, this seems to touching a nerve or something. Perhaps if you stick to what was actually said, you’ll be able to calm down.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    No, that was not my original claim. Even as to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, that was not my original claim. My original claim was that Charlie Sheen was an Hispanic, and should have been accounted for as such, during his multiple arrests for his violent and otherwise notorious criminal behavior. You, then, piped in, as follows:

    "Charlie Sheen’s paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen’s mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping."

    Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, is an Hispanic American, according to the government's own definition of that term. Ergo, when he is arrested and convicted, those statistics should be tallied in the "Brown" bin, rather than in the "White" bin-- despite the fact that he actually is ethnically European and racially "[W]hite" (as even most mestizos in the United States claim to be!). To call Spanish Americans "Hispanics," when lauding them, and then to turn around and claim that they are European Americans who should not be classified as "Hispanics," when they commit crimes, is nothing but rank hypocrisy and sophistry.

    As to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis his father, Martin Sheen, I subsequently said-- after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage, inasmuch as he had changed his name (after his father's own stage name!) and did not name all of his children with Spanish Christian names (only one-- plus a bastard bearing his Spanish surname!), as his own father had-- the following:

    "I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own 'Hispanic' background (according to the American government’s definition, whether or not to that of any particular dictionary), just as his famous father is."

    Illiterately, you took that as a claim that Charlie Sheen, who is a second-generation American of one-fourth Spanish descent, was just as proud of his Spanish heritage as his father, Martin Sheen, who is a first-generation American of one-half Spanish descent, was of his own. Someone fully literate in the English language would have realized that the phrase "just as his famous father is" refers to a similarity in kind, and not necessarily one of degree. If I had meant that the degree of the affection was the same in each man, with my being fully literate in English, and a university graduate in the subject, I would have written instead that Charlie Sheen was "quite proud of his own 'Hispanic' background . . . , just as much as his famous father" was.

    Now, despite my explaining, earlier, what my above-quoted claim did and did not mean, and even explaining at length why I would not necessarily expect Charlie Sheen's attachment to his own Spanish background to be equal to his father's attachment to his even-more-significant Spanish background (even contrasting how I and my own mother feel and felt, respectively, about being Slovak Americans), you again claim that my own "original claim" was that Charlie Sheen "is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father." So, in addition to your being semiliterate, you also are patently dishonest. "Helluva job, Brownie!"

    (By the way, as of a bit earlier, 'Sean' has been patiently waiting, for a full three months now, for your latest rebuttal to his (and my) ludicrous theory that Rudy Guede, and Rudy Guede alone, was responsible for the vicious rape and murder of a young British student, Meredith Kercher, in Perugia, Italy, back on All Saints Day evening, in 2007....)
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  194. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "Sheen has a total of ten grandchildren, ..."

    I'm afraid changing the subject will not help. The original claim was that Charlie Sheen is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father. Absent of any direct pipeline into Charlie Sheen's mind, I countered with the data at hand, i.e., pointing out the names of Charlie's kids in comparison with the names his father chose for Charlie and his siblings. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by bringing in the names of Martin Sheen's other grandchildren, not to mention loaded hysterical words like self-hating, abnegation, and ethnomasochism, but I suspect you have simply decided to thrash about and blow smoke, as opposed to admitting your original claim has little that you can provide to back it.


    "That is the sum total of your evidence that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish,..."

    Again -- look to your own reading comprehension before criticizing that of others. I nowhere claimed that Charlie Sheen is not proud of his Spanish anything. I merely pointed out that the evidence I gave indicates that the pride his father has is evidently greater, so that claiming that their pride is the same is going out on a limb. Whether that amounts to Charlie Sheen not being proud, or simply being less proud than someone else, is a separate matter. Given all the drama you're introducing, this seems to touching a nerve or something. Perhaps if you stick to what was actually said, you'll be able to calm down.

    No, that was not my original claim. Even as to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, that was not my original claim. My original claim was that Charlie Sheen was an Hispanic, and should have been accounted for as such, during his multiple arrests for his violent and otherwise notorious criminal behavior. You, then, piped in, as follows:

    “Charlie Sheen’s paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen’s mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping.”

    Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, is an Hispanic American, according to the government’s own definition of that term. Ergo, when he is arrested and convicted, those statistics should be tallied in the “Brown” bin, rather than in the “White” bin– despite the fact that he actually is ethnically European and racially “[W]hite” (as even most mestizos in the United States claim to be!). To call Spanish Americans “Hispanics,” when lauding them, and then to turn around and claim that they are European Americans who should not be classified as “Hispanics,” when they commit crimes, is nothing but rank hypocrisy and sophistry.

    As to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis his father, Martin Sheen, I subsequently said– after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage, inasmuch as he had changed his name (after his father’s own stage name!) and did not name all of his children with Spanish Christian names (only one– plus a bastard bearing his Spanish surname!), as his own father had– the following:

    “I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own ‘Hispanic’ background (according to the American government’s definition, whether or not to that of any particular dictionary), just as his famous father is.”

    Illiterately, you took that as a claim that Charlie Sheen, who is a second-generation American of one-fourth Spanish descent, was just as proud of his Spanish heritage as his father, Martin Sheen, who is a first-generation American of one-half Spanish descent, was of his own. Someone fully literate in the English language would have realized that the phrase “just as his famous father is” refers to a similarity in kind, and not necessarily one of degree. If I had meant that the degree of the affection was the same in each man, with my being fully literate in English, and a university graduate in the subject, I would have written instead that Charlie Sheen was “quite proud of his own ‘Hispanic’ background . . . , just as much as his famous father” was.

    Now, despite my explaining, earlier, what my above-quoted claim did and did not mean, and even explaining at length why I would not necessarily expect Charlie Sheen’s attachment to his own Spanish background to be equal to his father’s attachment to his even-more-significant Spanish background (even contrasting how I and my own mother feel and felt, respectively, about being Slovak Americans), you again claim that my own “original claim” was that Charlie Sheen “is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father.” So, in addition to your being semiliterate, you also are patently dishonest. “Helluva job, Brownie!”

    (By the way, as of a bit earlier, ‘Sean’ has been patiently waiting, for a full three months now, for your latest rebuttal to his (and my) ludicrous theory that Rudy Guede, and Rudy Guede alone, was responsible for the vicious rape and murder of a young British student, Meredith Kercher, in Perugia, Italy, back on All Saints Day evening, in 2007….)

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    You are correct as far as the kick-off comment being about whether Charlie Sheen should be classed as white or Hispanic. My apologies for that. That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com.

    "....after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage..."

    And back we go, down the rabbit hole. I nowhere insinuated that. And whatever demons you're trying to confront by your overwrought introduction of self-hating, abnegation, ethnomasochism, etc., into the conversation, maybe it's time to crawl out back into the real world. And you can argue all day about whether "just as his famous father is" means "just as much as his famous father is" or doesn't, but given the fact that you are able to shift around semantics whenever it suits you, I'm just going to stick with what you originally said. I have no idea how proud Charlie Sheen is of his Spanish heritage in absolute terms (and the same goes for his father) and I suspect you don't either; I only maintain that based on the evidence at hand, comparing the son's to his father's -- and again, I leave it to others to determine whether you did exactly that -- is a stretch.

    As for Guede, you're again twisting things around. Nowhere did I claim that he was not the only murderer. I believe he was. Therefore, claiming that I am trying to rebut "your and Sean's" theory about him being the sole murderer is at best, tendentious. My point all along that thread was that I believed that it was understandable for the Italian police to initially suspect Knox; however, I also maintained that after the DNA evidence came back (and the bleach clean-up story went nowhere) they should have let her go. And after Sean started into the same kind of racial profiling that helped get Knox into hot water in the first place (apparently, he's able to discern whether someone is guilty of slapping someone else based on a stare as evidenced by a single photograph -- at least if they're Italian), I didn't see much to be added. In hindsight, I gave him (and, apparently, you) far more attention than he deserved.

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  195. HA says:
    @D. K.
    No, that was not my original claim. Even as to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, that was not my original claim. My original claim was that Charlie Sheen was an Hispanic, and should have been accounted for as such, during his multiple arrests for his violent and otherwise notorious criminal behavior. You, then, piped in, as follows:

    "Charlie Sheen’s paternal grandfather is an immigrant from Spain who married an Irish immigrant. Sheen’s mother (nee Templeton) is Southern Baptist. Therefore, despite the fact that his birth-name is Carlos Estevez, insisting that he should be classified as Hispanic is not going to add much credibility to your ethnic score-keeping."

    Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, is an Hispanic American, according to the government's own definition of that term. Ergo, when he is arrested and convicted, those statistics should be tallied in the "Brown" bin, rather than in the "White" bin-- despite the fact that he actually is ethnically European and racially "[W]hite" (as even most mestizos in the United States claim to be!). To call Spanish Americans "Hispanics," when lauding them, and then to turn around and claim that they are European Americans who should not be classified as "Hispanics," when they commit crimes, is nothing but rank hypocrisy and sophistry.

    As to Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis his father, Martin Sheen, I subsequently said-- after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage, inasmuch as he had changed his name (after his father's own stage name!) and did not name all of his children with Spanish Christian names (only one-- plus a bastard bearing his Spanish surname!), as his own father had-- the following:

    "I am quite confident that Charlie Sheen is quite proud of his own 'Hispanic' background (according to the American government’s definition, whether or not to that of any particular dictionary), just as his famous father is."

    Illiterately, you took that as a claim that Charlie Sheen, who is a second-generation American of one-fourth Spanish descent, was just as proud of his Spanish heritage as his father, Martin Sheen, who is a first-generation American of one-half Spanish descent, was of his own. Someone fully literate in the English language would have realized that the phrase "just as his famous father is" refers to a similarity in kind, and not necessarily one of degree. If I had meant that the degree of the affection was the same in each man, with my being fully literate in English, and a university graduate in the subject, I would have written instead that Charlie Sheen was "quite proud of his own 'Hispanic' background . . . , just as much as his famous father" was.

    Now, despite my explaining, earlier, what my above-quoted claim did and did not mean, and even explaining at length why I would not necessarily expect Charlie Sheen's attachment to his own Spanish background to be equal to his father's attachment to his even-more-significant Spanish background (even contrasting how I and my own mother feel and felt, respectively, about being Slovak Americans), you again claim that my own "original claim" was that Charlie Sheen "is as proud of his Hispanic heritage as is his father." So, in addition to your being semiliterate, you also are patently dishonest. "Helluva job, Brownie!"

    (By the way, as of a bit earlier, 'Sean' has been patiently waiting, for a full three months now, for your latest rebuttal to his (and my) ludicrous theory that Rudy Guede, and Rudy Guede alone, was responsible for the vicious rape and murder of a young British student, Meredith Kercher, in Perugia, Italy, back on All Saints Day evening, in 2007....)

    You are correct as far as the kick-off comment being about whether Charlie Sheen should be classed as white or Hispanic. My apologies for that. That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com.

    “….after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage…”

    And back we go, down the rabbit hole. I nowhere insinuated that. And whatever demons you’re trying to confront by your overwrought introduction of self-hating, abnegation, ethnomasochism, etc., into the conversation, maybe it’s time to crawl out back into the real world. And you can argue all day about whether “just as his famous father is” means “just as much as his famous father is” or doesn’t, but given the fact that you are able to shift around semantics whenever it suits you, I’m just going to stick with what you originally said. I have no idea how proud Charlie Sheen is of his Spanish heritage in absolute terms (and the same goes for his father) and I suspect you don’t either; I only maintain that based on the evidence at hand, comparing the son’s to his father’s — and again, I leave it to others to determine whether you did exactly that — is a stretch.

    As for Guede, you’re again twisting things around. Nowhere did I claim that he was not the only murderer. I believe he was. Therefore, claiming that I am trying to rebut “your and Sean’s” theory about him being the sole murderer is at best, tendentious. My point all along that thread was that I believed that it was understandable for the Italian police to initially suspect Knox; however, I also maintained that after the DNA evidence came back (and the bleach clean-up story went nowhere) they should have let her go. And after Sean started into the same kind of racial profiling that helped get Knox into hot water in the first place (apparently, he’s able to discern whether someone is guilty of slapping someone else based on a stare as evidenced by a single photograph — at least if they’re Italian), I didn’t see much to be added. In hindsight, I gave him (and, apparently, you) far more attention than he deserved.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    That's right, an important public intellectual like you should not be wasting his invaluable time on someone such as I....
    , @D. K.
    P.S. By the way, when you wrote . . .

    ***

    "That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com."

    ***

    . . . to whom precisely were you referring?
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  196. D. K. says:
    @HA
    You are correct as far as the kick-off comment being about whether Charlie Sheen should be classed as white or Hispanic. My apologies for that. That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com.

    "....after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage..."

    And back we go, down the rabbit hole. I nowhere insinuated that. And whatever demons you're trying to confront by your overwrought introduction of self-hating, abnegation, ethnomasochism, etc., into the conversation, maybe it's time to crawl out back into the real world. And you can argue all day about whether "just as his famous father is" means "just as much as his famous father is" or doesn't, but given the fact that you are able to shift around semantics whenever it suits you, I'm just going to stick with what you originally said. I have no idea how proud Charlie Sheen is of his Spanish heritage in absolute terms (and the same goes for his father) and I suspect you don't either; I only maintain that based on the evidence at hand, comparing the son's to his father's -- and again, I leave it to others to determine whether you did exactly that -- is a stretch.

    As for Guede, you're again twisting things around. Nowhere did I claim that he was not the only murderer. I believe he was. Therefore, claiming that I am trying to rebut "your and Sean's" theory about him being the sole murderer is at best, tendentious. My point all along that thread was that I believed that it was understandable for the Italian police to initially suspect Knox; however, I also maintained that after the DNA evidence came back (and the bleach clean-up story went nowhere) they should have let her go. And after Sean started into the same kind of racial profiling that helped get Knox into hot water in the first place (apparently, he's able to discern whether someone is guilty of slapping someone else based on a stare as evidenced by a single photograph -- at least if they're Italian), I didn't see much to be added. In hindsight, I gave him (and, apparently, you) far more attention than he deserved.

    That’s right, an important public intellectual like you should not be wasting his invaluable time on someone such as I….

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "...an important public intellectual like you..."

    Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues -- including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else -- that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That's it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion.

    As for whom I'm referring to, let me simply state the following, however wildly you choose to twist it: I do have a problem with government officials who use slippery definitions of Hispanic whose net effect is to inflate the crime statistics of non-Hispanic whites. (Though in cases where the government allows people to self-identify as they choose, some of that slipperiness is both understandable and unavoidable.) But in the particular case of Charlie Sheen, an individual who is merely 1/4 Spanish (and not even colonial Spanish) and who has, for whatever reasons, dispensed with his nominal connections to that already small region of his family tree, I'm not going to get upset as you apparently are if his particular criminal record gets classified as white instead of Hispanic. If you disagree, that is your perogative, but we might as well leave it at that. Given what has transpired already, I'm pessimistic about what could possibly gained by trying to dissect the matter even further.

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  197. D. K. says:
    @HA
    You are correct as far as the kick-off comment being about whether Charlie Sheen should be classed as white or Hispanic. My apologies for that. That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com.

    "....after you insinuated that Charlie was not proud of his Spanish heritage..."

    And back we go, down the rabbit hole. I nowhere insinuated that. And whatever demons you're trying to confront by your overwrought introduction of self-hating, abnegation, ethnomasochism, etc., into the conversation, maybe it's time to crawl out back into the real world. And you can argue all day about whether "just as his famous father is" means "just as much as his famous father is" or doesn't, but given the fact that you are able to shift around semantics whenever it suits you, I'm just going to stick with what you originally said. I have no idea how proud Charlie Sheen is of his Spanish heritage in absolute terms (and the same goes for his father) and I suspect you don't either; I only maintain that based on the evidence at hand, comparing the son's to his father's -- and again, I leave it to others to determine whether you did exactly that -- is a stretch.

    As for Guede, you're again twisting things around. Nowhere did I claim that he was not the only murderer. I believe he was. Therefore, claiming that I am trying to rebut "your and Sean's" theory about him being the sole murderer is at best, tendentious. My point all along that thread was that I believed that it was understandable for the Italian police to initially suspect Knox; however, I also maintained that after the DNA evidence came back (and the bleach clean-up story went nowhere) they should have let her go. And after Sean started into the same kind of racial profiling that helped get Knox into hot water in the first place (apparently, he's able to discern whether someone is guilty of slapping someone else based on a stare as evidenced by a single photograph -- at least if they're Italian), I didn't see much to be added. In hindsight, I gave him (and, apparently, you) far more attention than he deserved.

    P.S. By the way, when you wrote . . .

    ***

    “That being said, I stand by my claim that those who only want to classify people as Hispanic when it suits them are not worth listening to, whether they be governmental officials blowing smoke about crime, or comment-makers on unz.com.”

    ***

    . . . to whom precisely were you referring?

    Read More
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  198. I don’t know about your town but take a look at who is committing the crimes in my town!

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/

    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    No, exactly eight out of the twenty-five homicide suspects have Spanish names (seven of whom are pictured, with each of those seven appearing to be a mestizo); and, lo and behold, each of those eight also is explicitly listed, there, as being an Hispanic. Eight out of twenty-five (8/25) equals exactly thirty-two percent (32%) of that linked page's listed homicide suspects-- which is damn close to a third, and, last time that I checked, marginally higher than the percentage of Chicago's currently resident population that is of Hispanic descent.
    , @Existential Confusion

    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.
     
    These individuals have all been arrested for suspicion of murder. My count differs, I count 8 latin, 2 (maybe) middle eastern, and the rest black. So I guess the takeaway is that without the "hispanics" 8 of the 25 murders would not have been committed, and if the South had won the war - hmm.
    , @Pincher Martin

    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.
     
    Eight of the first twenty-five suspects on that list are Hispanic. I know that because they're actually identified as Hispanic. So, no, not all three races are represented equally, but perhaps you were being cute.

    Only five out of the first one-hundred are identified as white, while fourteen of the first one-hundred are identified as Hispanic.

    Of the next one-hundred suspects on the list, with surnames that start with the letters D to J, twenty-one are identified as Hispanic and one as Hispanic-black, while only six are identified as white.

    In the next one hundred, sixteen are Hispanic and eight are white.

    And the list then finishes out with sixteen Hispanic names and ten whites.

    Total?

    67 Hispanics and 29 whites are on Chicago's list of homicide suspects. And too many blacks to count.

    , @Existential Confusion
    Here is the web address to the mug shots of recent arrests in Los Angeles County, Page 1:
    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/

    (Sorry, being a Luddite I do not know how to insert an active link, you will have to copy and paste)

    On the first page there are 24 people, of those 24, 17 surnames appear to be "Hispanic," funny thing, when you click on the record, under race it says N/A.

    I guess all the VICTIMS, of these hard working family people, just didn't allow for age adjustments, and official government statistics that prove there is nothing to fear from immigration.

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  199. D. K. says:
    @europeasant
    I don't know about your town but take a look at who is committing the crimes in my town!

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/


    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    No, exactly eight out of the twenty-five homicide suspects have Spanish names (seven of whom are pictured, with each of those seven appearing to be a mestizo); and, lo and behold, each of those eight also is explicitly listed, there, as being an Hispanic. Eight out of twenty-five (8/25) equals exactly thirty-two percent (32%) of that linked page’s listed homicide suspects– which is damn close to a third, and, last time that I checked, marginally higher than the percentage of Chicago’s currently resident population that is of Hispanic descent.

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  200. @europeasant
    I don't know about your town but take a look at who is committing the crimes in my town!

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/


    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    These individuals have all been arrested for suspicion of murder. My count differs, I count 8 latin, 2 (maybe) middle eastern, and the rest black. So I guess the takeaway is that without the “hispanics” 8 of the 25 murders would not have been committed, and if the South had won the war – hmm.

    Read More
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  201. @europeasant
    I don't know about your town but take a look at who is committing the crimes in my town!

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/


    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    Eight of the first twenty-five suspects on that list are Hispanic. I know that because they’re actually identified as Hispanic. So, no, not all three races are represented equally, but perhaps you were being cute.

    Only five out of the first one-hundred are identified as white, while fourteen of the first one-hundred are identified as Hispanic.

    Of the next one-hundred suspects on the list, with surnames that start with the letters D to J, twenty-one are identified as Hispanic and one as Hispanic-black, while only six are identified as white.

    In the next one hundred, sixteen are Hispanic and eight are white.

    And the list then finishes out with sixteen Hispanic names and ten whites.

    Total?

    67 Hispanics and 29 whites are on Chicago’s list of homicide suspects. And too many blacks to count.

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  202. @europeasant
    I don't know about your town but take a look at who is committing the crimes in my town!

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/


    Out of about 25 individuals 6 appear to be Hispanic. All three races are equally represented in the towns demographics.

    Here is the web address to the mug shots of recent arrests in Los Angeles County, Page 1:

    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/

    (Sorry, being a Luddite I do not know how to insert an active link, you will have to copy and paste)

    On the first page there are 24 people, of those 24, 17 surnames appear to be “Hispanic,” funny thing, when you click on the record, under race it says N/A.

    I guess all the VICTIMS, of these hard working family people, just didn’t allow for age adjustments, and official government statistics that prove there is nothing to fear from immigration.

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    • Replies: @Existential Confusion
    Damn - wrong link, here is the correct link:
    http://jail.com/arrest-records/los-angeles-county-ca
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  203. @Existential Confusion
    Here is the web address to the mug shots of recent arrests in Los Angeles County, Page 1:
    http://homicides.suntimes.com/suspects/

    (Sorry, being a Luddite I do not know how to insert an active link, you will have to copy and paste)

    On the first page there are 24 people, of those 24, 17 surnames appear to be "Hispanic," funny thing, when you click on the record, under race it says N/A.

    I guess all the VICTIMS, of these hard working family people, just didn't allow for age adjustments, and official government statistics that prove there is nothing to fear from immigration.

    Damn – wrong link, here is the correct link:

    http://jail.com/arrest-records/los-angeles-county-ca

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  204. HA says:
    @D. K.
    That's right, an important public intellectual like you should not be wasting his invaluable time on someone such as I....

    “…an important public intellectual like you…”

    Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues — including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else — that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That’s it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion.

    As for whom I’m referring to, let me simply state the following, however wildly you choose to twist it: I do have a problem with government officials who use slippery definitions of Hispanic whose net effect is to inflate the crime statistics of non-Hispanic whites. (Though in cases where the government allows people to self-identify as they choose, some of that slipperiness is both understandable and unavoidable.) But in the particular case of Charlie Sheen, an individual who is merely 1/4 Spanish (and not even colonial Spanish) and who has, for whatever reasons, dispensed with his nominal connections to that already small region of his family tree, I’m not going to get upset as you apparently are if his particular criminal record gets classified as white instead of Hispanic. If you disagree, that is your perogative, but we might as well leave it at that. Given what has transpired already, I’m pessimistic about what could possibly gained by trying to dissect the matter even further.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    You could have done likewise, several comments ago; yet, you return, time and again, to repeat the same nonsense and lies. I promptly cleared up your misunderstanding of my plain English about Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, explaining what I did and did not mean; yet, you continued to claim that I had said that their respective affections for their Spanish backgrounds were necessarily of equal strength. As anyone reviewing the tape may see, this all began because you interjected yourself in an exchange between me and another commenter-- and, you did so because you were too dense to see why I had brought up Charlie Sheen, in the first place: to point out that "Hispanic" is a government-concocted "ethnic" category that has nothing to do with race, and really nothing to do with ethnicity, in its normal sense of people sharing a common gene pool from living for a long period of time among people from that same gene pool. Labeling people as being of the same "ethnic" background, merely because they all come from, or are descended from, Spanish-speaking societies, is as ludicrous as claiming that all people from, or descended from, French-speaking societies thereby have the same "ethnic" background-- be they French, Belgian, Swiss, Quebecois, Cajuns, Creoles, Haitians, Nigeriens, Vietnamese, or any of the many other groups that do, or did, have a French culture. In other words, I am down on "Hispanic," irrespective of how I feel about so-called Hispanics, individually (like my own priestly brother and former brother-in-law, both noted by me, above) or collectively. Since the category exists, despite my objections, however, I insist that it be applied fully and fairly-- including when Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, beats up one of his women, or trashes one of his luxury hotel rooms! If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way, perhaps you are the boy who needs counseling!?!
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  205. anon says: • Disclaimer

    If two populations have exactly the same crime rate with exactly the same skew to young blue collar males and mass immigration is also skewed to young blue collar males then the crime rate in any town or neighborhood will go up dramatically as immigration starts – because immigration is adding large numbers of extra young males – and go down again after the original population are driven out.

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  206. Gee, awfully sorry, but Ann Coulter just exploded your so-called “data” and “studies.” Even you can find that site, I suspect.

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  207. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "...an important public intellectual like you..."

    Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues -- including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else -- that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That's it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion.

    As for whom I'm referring to, let me simply state the following, however wildly you choose to twist it: I do have a problem with government officials who use slippery definitions of Hispanic whose net effect is to inflate the crime statistics of non-Hispanic whites. (Though in cases where the government allows people to self-identify as they choose, some of that slipperiness is both understandable and unavoidable.) But in the particular case of Charlie Sheen, an individual who is merely 1/4 Spanish (and not even colonial Spanish) and who has, for whatever reasons, dispensed with his nominal connections to that already small region of his family tree, I'm not going to get upset as you apparently are if his particular criminal record gets classified as white instead of Hispanic. If you disagree, that is your perogative, but we might as well leave it at that. Given what has transpired already, I'm pessimistic about what could possibly gained by trying to dissect the matter even further.

    You could have done likewise, several comments ago; yet, you return, time and again, to repeat the same nonsense and lies. I promptly cleared up your misunderstanding of my plain English about Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, explaining what I did and did not mean; yet, you continued to claim that I had said that their respective affections for their Spanish backgrounds were necessarily of equal strength. As anyone reviewing the tape may see, this all began because you interjected yourself in an exchange between me and another commenter– and, you did so because you were too dense to see why I had brought up Charlie Sheen, in the first place: to point out that “Hispanic” is a government-concocted “ethnic” category that has nothing to do with race, and really nothing to do with ethnicity, in its normal sense of people sharing a common gene pool from living for a long period of time among people from that same gene pool. Labeling people as being of the same “ethnic” background, merely because they all come from, or are descended from, Spanish-speaking societies, is as ludicrous as claiming that all people from, or descended from, French-speaking societies thereby have the same “ethnic” background– be they French, Belgian, Swiss, Quebecois, Cajuns, Creoles, Haitians, Nigeriens, Vietnamese, or any of the many other groups that do, or did, have a French culture. In other words, I am down on “Hispanic,” irrespective of how I feel about so-called Hispanics, individually (like my own priestly brother and former brother-in-law, both noted by me, above) or collectively. Since the category exists, despite my objections, however, I insist that it be applied fully and fairly– including when Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, beats up one of his women, or trashes one of his luxury hotel rooms! If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way, perhaps you are the boy who needs counseling!?!

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way,..."


    Yeah, right. Because that's the only possible way to interpret my remark. And so exactly like what we've come to expect from you.

    Reading comprehension indeed.

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  208. @Anonymous
    How about 'Robert'?

    Well yes, but only my Grandmother and my Mother when she is mad use that. The same goes for Bobby, only my Grandmother and a couple of childhood friends use that.

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  209. @Ron Unz
    Well, I've still very busy with my software work, but with over 20,000 words of mostly hostile commentary, I should provide at least a few scattered responses.

    @Dahlia


    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over. The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
     
    Thanks so much, Dahlia. Those long-secret DOJ statistics seemed pretty decisive to me as well, though obviously not to most of the agitated commenters here. I think I first heard about them from Jared Taylor, who dropped me a congratulatory note.

    @Lot


    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the [California] rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.
     
    Actually, those are the *male* incarceration rates. If you look more carefully at the PPIC report, Hispanic females are substantially *less* likely to be incarcerated than white females, which somewhat reduces the aggregate racial imbalance. My own calculations for California, discussed in my paper and subsequent columns, had shown that even after age-adjustment California Hispanics were somewhat more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and the PPIC estimate is about 10% higher than my own. Throughout my paper, my estimates were necessarily imprecise, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were off by 10% or so. So you might want to adjust all my national incarceration estimates by 10%.

    @Pincher Martin


    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes...So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)?
     
    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look "Hispanic" or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    @officious intermeddler


    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding.
     
    Thanks for your very helpful effort in trying to validate the ethnic incarceration data in Texas, California, and New York; I had no idea any such prison websites existed. It certainly does seem to indicate that the official ethnic classification data is reasonably accurate.

    @Alex M


    And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
     
    Thanks, Alex. But frankly I totally gave up on the Republicans about a dozen years ago...


    OVERALL:

    Once again, I'd like to emphasize that I've *never* claimed that Hispanics had *exactly* the same crime rates as whites---the data just isn't strong enough for that. Instead, the data strongly indicates that Hispanics have *approximately* the same crime rates of whites of the same age and gender, say within 20-25% or so. But keep in mind that whites from one part of the country appear to have crime rates 100-150% higher than whites from another part of the country, so Hispanics seem pretty close to the center of the white crime distribution curve.

    I hope you would accept that it is not agitated comment for people to resent ALL the crime of people who have no right to be here irrespective of the rate at which they commit it. Each one is a crime that should not be happening in our society. Perhaps I am wrong, but the point of your Hispanic criminal parity articles seems to be that we should just get over it and accept the huge wave of Hispanic illegal immigration and get with an amnesty program. If I am wrong in that please accept my apology.

    I have previously suggested a new immigration policy open to all Mexicans and Canadians that can pass a criminal background check. With employment conditions that they be paid at least 1.5 times the US minimum wage and extra employment taxes to be used to offset the impact to US workers displaced and full citizenship after 5 years of employment. With this policy we can then see how many jobs there really are that Americans just wont do.

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  210. HA says:
    @D. K.
    You could have done likewise, several comments ago; yet, you return, time and again, to repeat the same nonsense and lies. I promptly cleared up your misunderstanding of my plain English about Charlie Sheen vis-a-vis Martin Sheen, explaining what I did and did not mean; yet, you continued to claim that I had said that their respective affections for their Spanish backgrounds were necessarily of equal strength. As anyone reviewing the tape may see, this all began because you interjected yourself in an exchange between me and another commenter-- and, you did so because you were too dense to see why I had brought up Charlie Sheen, in the first place: to point out that "Hispanic" is a government-concocted "ethnic" category that has nothing to do with race, and really nothing to do with ethnicity, in its normal sense of people sharing a common gene pool from living for a long period of time among people from that same gene pool. Labeling people as being of the same "ethnic" background, merely because they all come from, or are descended from, Spanish-speaking societies, is as ludicrous as claiming that all people from, or descended from, French-speaking societies thereby have the same "ethnic" background-- be they French, Belgian, Swiss, Quebecois, Cajuns, Creoles, Haitians, Nigeriens, Vietnamese, or any of the many other groups that do, or did, have a French culture. In other words, I am down on "Hispanic," irrespective of how I feel about so-called Hispanics, individually (like my own priestly brother and former brother-in-law, both noted by me, above) or collectively. Since the category exists, despite my objections, however, I insist that it be applied fully and fairly-- including when Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, beats up one of his women, or trashes one of his luxury hotel rooms! If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way, perhaps you are the boy who needs counseling!?!

    “If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way,…”

    Yeah, right. Because that’s the only possible way to interpret my remark. And so exactly like what we’ve come to expect from you.

    Reading comprehension indeed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    ***

    "Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues — including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else — that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That’s it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion."

    ***

    You expressly listed "connections to partial Slovak roots" (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp) as being one of the many issues that you find "somewhat disturbing." Your statement, quoted in full above, speaks for itself, vis-a-vis my own rejoinder, Zippi. You should praise Allah that your concluding claim, at least, is true. For this supposedly being a discussion that you simply "have no wish to pursue," you sure do seem to be inveterately incapable of resisting your own preternatural need to return to your own rhetorical vomit. "That's it." Indeed....
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  211. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "If you have a phobia about us Slovaks, by the way,..."


    Yeah, right. Because that's the only possible way to interpret my remark. And so exactly like what we've come to expect from you.

    Reading comprehension indeed.

    ***

    “Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues — including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else — that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That’s it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion.”

    ***

    You expressly listed “connections to partial Slovak roots” (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp) as being one of the many issues that you find “somewhat disturbing.” Your statement, quoted in full above, speaks for itself, vis-a-vis my own rejoinder, Zippi. You should praise Allah that your concluding claim, at least, is true. For this supposedly being a discussion that you simply “have no wish to pursue,” you sure do seem to be inveterately incapable of resisting your own preternatural need to return to your own rhetorical vomit. “That’s it.” Indeed….

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "Slovak roots” (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp)..."

    No I got it. That, juxtaposed with all the talk about ethnomasochism and self-hating was indeed what I found disturbing enough to suggest that counseling on the topic of how to deal with your own ethnicity might be a better use of your time than focusing on Charlie Sheen's (and while you're at it, you might also get reading comprehension thing looked into).

    However, your issues would be as disturbing if you were half-Peruvian as opposed to being half-Slovak. That being the case, see if you can guess who it is I really find disturbing in all this. (Hint: it is not your Slovak mother, though maybe the counselor will want to look into that as well.)

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  212. HA says:
    @D. K.
    ***

    "Again with the fervid misrepresentations. I have no wish to pursue a discussion that is leading nowhere and, instead, keeps returning to completely unrelated and somewhat disturbing issues — including ethnomasochism, self-hating, abnegation, connections to partial Slovak roots, Italian death-stares, and who knows what else — that are perhaps more suitable for counseling. That’s it. One does not need to be an intellectual of any kind to come to that conclusion."

    ***

    You expressly listed "connections to partial Slovak roots" (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp) as being one of the many issues that you find "somewhat disturbing." Your statement, quoted in full above, speaks for itself, vis-a-vis my own rejoinder, Zippi. You should praise Allah that your concluding claim, at least, is true. For this supposedly being a discussion that you simply "have no wish to pursue," you sure do seem to be inveterately incapable of resisting your own preternatural need to return to your own rhetorical vomit. "That's it." Indeed....

    “Slovak roots” (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp)…”

    No I got it. That, juxtaposed with all the talk about ethnomasochism and self-hating was indeed what I found disturbing enough to suggest that counseling on the topic of how to deal with your own ethnicity might be a better use of your time than focusing on Charlie Sheen’s (and while you’re at it, you might also get reading comprehension thing looked into).

    However, your issues would be as disturbing if you were half-Peruvian as opposed to being half-Slovak. That being the case, see if you can guess who it is I really find disturbing in all this. (Hint: it is not your Slovak mother, though maybe the counselor will want to look into that as well.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion, you seem quite incapable of not doing so. Since my own M.S. degree is in Personality & Social Psychology, rather than in Clinical Psychology, however, I will forego making a diagnosis of my own. If you wish to accept the offer that I made, above, to another commenter, regarding the MMPI, though, I would be happy to oblige....
    , @D. K.
    For convenience's sake-- and for those observers who do not wish to go scrolling back through scores of earlier comments, here-- this is exactly what I wrote, above, about my own heritage:

    ***

    "I am not particularly proud of my being half-Slovak, either, in the way that my late mother was very proud of her being a first-generation, native-born Slovak American. I generally think of myself as just a generic American– or, increasingly, as a generic European American– since, unlike my mother, I myself am descended from a large number of different European nationalities. That certainly does not mean, however, that I am ashamed of my being half-Slovak, nor that I would try to conceal the fact that I am half-Slovak."

    ***

    That anyone would claim to find that statement by me to be "somewhat disturbing," I will leave to those other observers, here, to mull over....

    As for my also writing, above, in my immediately subsequent reply . . .

    ***

    "Oh, the horror! The self-abnegation!! The cultural genocide on display in this one-quarter-Spanish man-of-color’s diseased and self-hating mind!!!"

    ***

    . . . I had assumed that anyone with a three-digit IQ would recognize this hyperbolic sarcasm as being directed at someone other than Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, himself. My mistake, apparently, was in assuming that everyone commenting here actually had such an IQ....
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  213. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "Slovak roots” (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp)..."

    No I got it. That, juxtaposed with all the talk about ethnomasochism and self-hating was indeed what I found disturbing enough to suggest that counseling on the topic of how to deal with your own ethnicity might be a better use of your time than focusing on Charlie Sheen's (and while you're at it, you might also get reading comprehension thing looked into).

    However, your issues would be as disturbing if you were half-Peruvian as opposed to being half-Slovak. That being the case, see if you can guess who it is I really find disturbing in all this. (Hint: it is not your Slovak mother, though maybe the counselor will want to look into that as well.)

    For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion, you seem quite incapable of not doing so. Since my own M.S. degree is in Personality & Social Psychology, rather than in Clinical Psychology, however, I will forego making a diagnosis of my own. If you wish to accept the offer that I made, above, to another commenter, regarding the MMPI, though, I would be happy to oblige….

    Read More
    • Replies: @HA
    "For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion,..."

    You may have a point there, and I do like to work things through to the bitter end, to an extent that would perhaps best be curtailed, though I was also talking about the Knox discussion. In any case, for now, I'll continue to manage my time according to my own needs and whims, thanks anyway.

    And as for the rest of your TMI tirade, if you wish to continue insisting that introducing terms like self-hatred, ethnomasochism, and abnegation were perfectly relevant segues to the topic at hand, and that they indicate something more about Charlie Sheen than they do about you, well, let me make a wild guess and say that your psychology credentials did not include a minor in self-awareness.

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  214. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "Slovak roots” (i.e., my own, in an analogy of mine that you were obviously too stupid to grasp)..."

    No I got it. That, juxtaposed with all the talk about ethnomasochism and self-hating was indeed what I found disturbing enough to suggest that counseling on the topic of how to deal with your own ethnicity might be a better use of your time than focusing on Charlie Sheen's (and while you're at it, you might also get reading comprehension thing looked into).

    However, your issues would be as disturbing if you were half-Peruvian as opposed to being half-Slovak. That being the case, see if you can guess who it is I really find disturbing in all this. (Hint: it is not your Slovak mother, though maybe the counselor will want to look into that as well.)

    For convenience’s sake– and for those observers who do not wish to go scrolling back through scores of earlier comments, here– this is exactly what I wrote, above, about my own heritage:

    ***

    “I am not particularly proud of my being half-Slovak, either, in the way that my late mother was very proud of her being a first-generation, native-born Slovak American. I generally think of myself as just a generic American– or, increasingly, as a generic European American– since, unlike my mother, I myself am descended from a large number of different European nationalities. That certainly does not mean, however, that I am ashamed of my being half-Slovak, nor that I would try to conceal the fact that I am half-Slovak.”

    ***

    That anyone would claim to find that statement by me to be “somewhat disturbing,” I will leave to those other observers, here, to mull over….

    As for my also writing, above, in my immediately subsequent reply . . .

    ***

    “Oh, the horror! The self-abnegation!! The cultural genocide on display in this one-quarter-Spanish man-of-color’s diseased and self-hating mind!!!”

    ***

    . . . I had assumed that anyone with a three-digit IQ would recognize this hyperbolic sarcasm as being directed at someone other than Charlie Sheen, ne Carlos Estevez, himself. My mistake, apparently, was in assuming that everyone commenting here actually had such an IQ….

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  215. HA says:
    @D. K.
    For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion, you seem quite incapable of not doing so. Since my own M.S. degree is in Personality & Social Psychology, rather than in Clinical Psychology, however, I will forego making a diagnosis of my own. If you wish to accept the offer that I made, above, to another commenter, regarding the MMPI, though, I would be happy to oblige....

    “For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion,…”

    You may have a point there, and I do like to work things through to the bitter end, to an extent that would perhaps best be curtailed, though I was also talking about the Knox discussion. In any case, for now, I’ll continue to manage my time according to my own needs and whims, thanks anyway.

    And as for the rest of your TMI tirade, if you wish to continue insisting that introducing terms like self-hatred, ethnomasochism, and abnegation were perfectly relevant segues to the topic at hand, and that they indicate something more about Charlie Sheen than they do about you, well, let me make a wild guess and say that your psychology credentials did not include a minor in self-awareness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @D. K.
    Even after my making it explicit, you still do not get it! I was making fun of you, Zippi, not Charlie Sheen. He, at least, is an alcoholic and a drug addict, inter alia; what the hell is your excuse?!? As for your obdurate presence, here, in the face of your surfeit of parting words, it is merely as I said, above: you are dishonest, as well as semiliterate. And, no, you were not "talking about the Knox discussion," which we both left, over three months ago, now; shall I scroll up and cull every quote where you claimed that you had had enough of THIS discussion, Baron Ziphausen? As Amanda Knox herself might well explain to Rudy Guede, in a few years, after he is released from prison, and then allowed to immigrate to America: "VAFFANCULO!"
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  216. D. K. says:
    @HA
    "For someone who has stated, several times, above, that he has no desire to continue this ongoing discussion,..."

    You may have a point there, and I do like to work things through to the bitter end, to an extent that would perhaps best be curtailed, though I was also talking about the Knox discussion. In any case, for now, I'll continue to manage my time according to my own needs and whims, thanks anyway.

    And as for the rest of your TMI tirade, if you wish to continue insisting that introducing terms like self-hatred, ethnomasochism, and abnegation were perfectly relevant segues to the topic at hand, and that they indicate something more about Charlie Sheen than they do about you, well, let me make a wild guess and say that your psychology credentials did not include a minor in self-awareness.

    Even after my making it explicit, you still do not get it! I was making fun of you, Zippi, not Charlie Sheen. He, at least, is an alcoholic and a drug addict, inter alia; what the hell is your excuse?!? As for your obdurate presence, here, in the face of your surfeit of parting words, it is merely as I said, above: you are dishonest, as well as semiliterate. And, no, you were not “talking about the Knox discussion,” which we both left, over three months ago, now; shall I scroll up and cull every quote where you claimed that you had had enough of THIS discussion, Baron Ziphausen? As Amanda Knox herself might well explain to Rudy Guede, in a few years, after he is released from prison, and then allowed to immigrate to America: “VAFFANCULO!”

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    • Replies: @HA
    "... I was making fun of you, Zippi, not Charlie Sheen...."

    That is a good point. In light of that, let me revise my last sentence:


    And as for the rest of your TMI tirade, if you wish to continue insisting that introducing terms like self-hatred, ethnomasochism, and abnegation were perfectly relevant segues to the topic at hand, and that they indicate something more about Charlie Sheen (or me) than they do about you, well, let me make a wild guess and say that your psychology credentials did not include a minor in self-awareness.
     
    Sorry I had to spell that out for you, but there we are. And cull away to your heart's content, but as previously noted, I will continue to manage my responses and my time as my needs and my whims dictate. I do get a certain amusement out of your ongoing conniption.
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  217. HA says:
    @D. K.
    Even after my making it explicit, you still do not get it! I was making fun of you, Zippi, not Charlie Sheen. He, at least, is an alcoholic and a drug addict, inter alia; what the hell is your excuse?!? As for your obdurate presence, here, in the face of your surfeit of parting words, it is merely as I said, above: you are dishonest, as well as semiliterate. And, no, you were not "talking about the Knox discussion," which we both left, over three months ago, now; shall I scroll up and cull every quote where you claimed that you had had enough of THIS discussion, Baron Ziphausen? As Amanda Knox herself might well explain to Rudy Guede, in a few years, after he is released from prison, and then allowed to immigrate to America: "VAFFANCULO!"

    “… I was making fun of you, Zippi, not Charlie Sheen….”

    That is a good point. In light of that, let me revise my last sentence:

    And as for the rest of your TMI tirade, if you wish to continue insisting that introducing terms like self-hatred, ethnomasochism, and abnegation were perfectly relevant segues to the topic at hand, and that they indicate something more about Charlie Sheen (or me) than they do about you, well, let me make a wild guess and say that your psychology credentials did not include a minor in self-awareness.

    Sorry I had to spell that out for you, but there we are. And cull away to your heart’s content, but as previously noted, I will continue to manage my responses and my time as my needs and my whims dictate. I do get a certain amusement out of your ongoing conniption.

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  218. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis. Instead we get endless – and pointless – discussions about Charlie Sheen’s children. Yeah, totally relevant.

    This also exposes a lot of white nationalists to have no real arguments on immigration other than scare-tactics. If you don’t have any postive arguments for endogamy, and white self-determination that are standing on their own, then you have nothing, as evidenced by this comment thread.

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    • Replies: @bomag
    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.

    Why are we compelled to even entertain the thesis? Just because a foreign invading force has the same crime rate as the natives, why should the natives accept an unlimited number of the invaders?

    ... white nationalists... no real arguments...

    One can be against immigration and not be a white nationalists, a notion that does not register in your damaged brain. Current Hispanic residents of the US poll substantially in favor of limiting immigration.

    What you sneeringly admit here is that immigration is damaging, damaging to white Americans, and this gives you great pleasure.
    , @Existential Confusion

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.
     
    You refute a thesis by the presentation of facts that refute the facts or conclusions of the thesis. Numerous posts have accomplished that admirably, you either have not read them or choose to believe whatever fits your internal narrative. This article is less a thesis than a piece of social justice propaganda.

    Instead we get endless – and pointless – discussions about Charlie Sheen’s children. Yeah, totally relevant.
     
    Creating a straw man, by singling out the posts of a couple of individuals engaged in personal bickering over a tangential subject, as representative of the opposition viewpoint is a tedious tactic.
    , @Pincher Martin

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.
     
    Ron doesn't have a quantitative argument. His model is garbage in, garbage out. He relies on selective evidence which changes the definition of a Hispanic depending on what he's looking at.

    You can read my posts at #177, #180, and #184 to see what I'm getting at.

    From the tone of your posts, though, I wonder if you were really coming here looking for "quantitative arguments" or if you were just coming here to get your moral outrage on.
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  219. bomag says:
    @Anon
    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis. Instead we get endless - and pointless - discussions about Charlie Sheen's children. Yeah, totally relevant.

    This also exposes a lot of white nationalists to have no real arguments on immigration other than scare-tactics. If you don't have any postive arguments for endogamy, and white self-determination that are standing on their own, then you have nothing, as evidenced by this comment thread.

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.

    Why are we compelled to even entertain the thesis? Just because a foreign invading force has the same crime rate as the natives, why should the natives accept an unlimited number of the invaders?

    … white nationalists… no real arguments…

    One can be against immigration and not be a white nationalists, a notion that does not register in your damaged brain. Current Hispanic residents of the US poll substantially in favor of limiting immigration.

    What you sneeringly admit here is that immigration is damaging, damaging to white Americans, and this gives you great pleasure.

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  220. pyrrhus says:

    Total nonsense, as those of us who have access to police crime statistics well know. For a more meticulous debunking, http://www.vdare.com/articles/ann-coulter-every-pro-immigration-claim-is-a-lie-especially-about-immigrant-crime

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  221. @Anon
    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis. Instead we get endless - and pointless - discussions about Charlie Sheen's children. Yeah, totally relevant.

    This also exposes a lot of white nationalists to have no real arguments on immigration other than scare-tactics. If you don't have any postive arguments for endogamy, and white self-determination that are standing on their own, then you have nothing, as evidenced by this comment thread.

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.

    You refute a thesis by the presentation of facts that refute the facts or conclusions of the thesis. Numerous posts have accomplished that admirably, you either have not read them or choose to believe whatever fits your internal narrative. This article is less a thesis than a piece of social justice propaganda.

    Instead we get endless – and pointless – discussions about Charlie Sheen’s children. Yeah, totally relevant.

    Creating a straw man, by singling out the posts of a couple of individuals engaged in personal bickering over a tangential subject, as representative of the opposition viewpoint is a tedious tactic.

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    • Replies: @D. K.
    I was attacked by someone who still does not grasp why I ever raised the name of Charlie Sheen-- even after having it explained, several times! Regardless, no one on Mr. Unz' side has attempted, to date, to answer the salient questions that I raised for him in my very first comment, above:

    ***

    Hispanic immigrants tend to be disproportionately male. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be young adults. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poor. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be unskilled. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be (Third World) rural folk migrating to urban locations in our (First World) country. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poorly educated. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be stupid. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    ***

    In other words, even if the mythical race of "Hispanics" were presumed, for the sake of argument, to be intrinsically criminal to precisely the same degree as "White" Americans (i.e., Americans of solely indigenous-European descent), the ongoing immigrant invasion from Latin America, and especially from Mexico and Central America, still would be expected to bring with it an upsurge in crime.
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  222. @Anon
    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis. Instead we get endless - and pointless - discussions about Charlie Sheen's children. Yeah, totally relevant.

    This also exposes a lot of white nationalists to have no real arguments on immigration other than scare-tactics. If you don't have any postive arguments for endogamy, and white self-determination that are standing on their own, then you have nothing, as evidenced by this comment thread.

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.

    Ron doesn’t have a quantitative argument. His model is garbage in, garbage out. He relies on selective evidence which changes the definition of a Hispanic depending on what he’s looking at.

    You can read my posts at #177, #180, and #184 to see what I’m getting at.

    From the tone of your posts, though, I wonder if you were really coming here looking for “quantitative arguments” or if you were just coming here to get your moral outrage on.

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  223. D. K. says:
    @Existential Confusion

    So I see nobody has really carried out a lot of quantitative arguments against this thesis.
     
    You refute a thesis by the presentation of facts that refute the facts or conclusions of the thesis. Numerous posts have accomplished that admirably, you either have not read them or choose to believe whatever fits your internal narrative. This article is less a thesis than a piece of social justice propaganda.

    Instead we get endless – and pointless – discussions about Charlie Sheen’s children. Yeah, totally relevant.
     
    Creating a straw man, by singling out the posts of a couple of individuals engaged in personal bickering over a tangential subject, as representative of the opposition viewpoint is a tedious tactic.

    I was attacked by someone who still does not grasp why I ever raised the name of Charlie Sheen– even after having it explained, several times! Regardless, no one on Mr. Unz’ side has attempted, to date, to answer the salient questions that I raised for him in my very first comment, above:

    ***

    Hispanic immigrants tend to be disproportionately male. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be young adults. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poor. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be unskilled. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be (Third World) rural folk migrating to urban locations in our (First World) country. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be poorly educated. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    They tend to be stupid. Does that tend to raise or lower our crime rates?

    ***

    In other words, even if the mythical race of “Hispanics” were presumed, for the sake of argument, to be intrinsically criminal to precisely the same degree as “White” Americans (i.e., Americans of solely indigenous-European descent), the ongoing immigrant invasion from Latin America, and especially from Mexico and Central America, still would be expected to bring with it an upsurge in crime.

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  224. @Ron Unz
    Well, I've still very busy with my software work, but with over 20,000 words of mostly hostile commentary, I should provide at least a few scattered responses.

    @Dahlia


    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over. The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
     
    Thanks so much, Dahlia. Those long-secret DOJ statistics seemed pretty decisive to me as well, though obviously not to most of the agitated commenters here. I think I first heard about them from Jared Taylor, who dropped me a congratulatory note.

    @Lot


    Adjusting for age, but not for the other factors that understate Latino crime rates relative to incarceration rates, the [California] rate per PPIC is 770 per 100,000 whites, 1,141 per 100,000 Latinos. So the Latino incarceration rate is 32.5% higher than it is for whites.
     
    Actually, those are the *male* incarceration rates. If you look more carefully at the PPIC report, Hispanic females are substantially *less* likely to be incarcerated than white females, which somewhat reduces the aggregate racial imbalance. My own calculations for California, discussed in my paper and subsequent columns, had shown that even after age-adjustment California Hispanics were somewhat more likely to be incarcerated than whites, and the PPIC estimate is about 10% higher than my own. Throughout my paper, my estimates were necessarily imprecise, and it wouldn't surprise me in the least if they were off by 10% or so. So you might want to adjust all my national incarceration estimates by 10%.

    @Pincher Martin


    The mistake you and Ron are making is that you believe that by taking the *perceived* ethnicity of the offender and dividing it by the number of *self-identified* Hispanics, you can get an accurate rate for the frequency Hispanics commit violent crimes...So the question you have to ask yourself is, how many of those 53 million U.S. Hispanics in the 2012-13 census actually look Hispanic (i.e., Mestizo)?
     
    Look, the overwhelming majority of Hispanics look "Hispanic" or have Hispanic accents, and this overwhelmingly applies to Hispanic street criminals, as identified by their victims. Perhaps a few Charlie Sheen-looking Hispanics are mugging and robbing people and being misidentified as white, but I doubt the numbers are large enough to make a significant difference in the statistics.

    @officious intermeddler


    I spent 5 minutes each on the Texas and Los Angeles websites. In Texas, of the 200 or so prisoners named “J Smith,” 5 were Hispanic. Not a large number, but on the other hand, their names were “James Christopher Smith,” “James R. Smith,” “Jeffery Jordan Smith,” “Jerry L. Smith” and “Jonathan Smith,” so if Texas authorities were inclined to hide Hispanics, those 5 would have been good candidates for hiding.
     
    Thanks for your very helpful effort in trying to validate the ethnic incarceration data in Texas, California, and New York; I had no idea any such prison websites existed. It certainly does seem to indicate that the official ethnic classification data is reasonably accurate.

    @Alex M


    And by the way, I feel for you Ron. After a couple of decades of trying to help Republicans/conservatives carefully maneuver the Hispanic immigration issue, you can’t be feeling to good that absolutely nothing has changed about the conservative base of the Republican party, they are still just mentally deranged reactionary kooks.
     
    Thanks, Alex. But frankly I totally gave up on the Republicans about a dozen years ago...


    OVERALL:

    Once again, I'd like to emphasize that I've *never* claimed that Hispanics had *exactly* the same crime rates as whites---the data just isn't strong enough for that. Instead, the data strongly indicates that Hispanics have *approximately* the same crime rates of whites of the same age and gender, say within 20-25% or so. But keep in mind that whites from one part of the country appear to have crime rates 100-150% higher than whites from another part of the country, so Hispanics seem pretty close to the center of the white crime distribution curve.

    Ron
    Referencing post 175, specifically your reply to officious intermeddler – It is not that White criminals are incorrectly classified as Hispanics. Hispanics are incorrectly classified as White. You can see for yourself in less than five minutes.

    Go to the Federal Bureau of Prisons web site, www dot BOP dot gov. Choose Inmates, Find an Inmate, Find by Name. Randomly select Spanish first and last names.
    I used Juan, Jose, Carlos, Pedro, Garcia, Lopez and Rodriguez. Nearly 100% are White. A tiny fraction are Black. There are no Hispanics. In fact, the four Race categories are American Indian, Asian, Black, and White. Hispanic is not a category.

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    • Replies: @Pincher Martin

    Referencing post 175, specifically your reply to officious intermeddler – It is not that White criminals are incorrectly classified as Hispanics. Hispanics are incorrectly classified as White. You can see for yourself in less than five minutes.
     
    Well, I accused Ron of “…inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator….”

    You have focused on another example of why that's true, but my example is also correct. There are millions of self-identified Hispanics in the U.S. who do not look mestizo.

    Ron busily goes about his social science projects looking for proof that his pet theories are correct, and when he finds any evidence in support of his ideas, he declares his own profundity and stops looking for any proof to the contrary.
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  225. @North Carolina Resident
    Ron
    Referencing post 175, specifically your reply to officious intermeddler - It is not that White criminals are incorrectly classified as Hispanics. Hispanics are incorrectly classified as White. You can see for yourself in less than five minutes.

    Go to the Federal Bureau of Prisons web site, www dot BOP dot gov. Choose Inmates, Find an Inmate, Find by Name. Randomly select Spanish first and last names.
    I used Juan, Jose, Carlos, Pedro, Garcia, Lopez and Rodriguez. Nearly 100% are White. A tiny fraction are Black. There are no Hispanics. In fact, the four Race categories are American Indian, Asian, Black, and White. Hispanic is not a category.

    Referencing post 175, specifically your reply to officious intermeddler – It is not that White criminals are incorrectly classified as Hispanics. Hispanics are incorrectly classified as White. You can see for yourself in less than five minutes.

    Well, I accused Ron of “…inflating the Hispanic denominator and suppressing the Hispanic numerator….”

    You have focused on another example of why that’s true, but my example is also correct. There are millions of self-identified Hispanics in the U.S. who do not look mestizo.

    Ron busily goes about his social science projects looking for proof that his pet theories are correct, and when he finds any evidence in support of his ideas, he declares his own profundity and stops looking for any proof to the contrary.

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  226. Here are many examples of Hispanic criminals being categorized as White. You can find countless more.

    I’m on vacation in the Outer Banks of NC and found this nearby paper online.

    The Greenville, NC (population 89,000), Daily Reflector online edition can be found at http://www.reflector.com. Select News drop down arrow (upper left corner), and then select Jail Bookings. You can scroll through or use search box.

    According to police reports, everyone below is WHITE. (Even the few Arab names I saw are considered WHITE.) All have photos. They are not White or Caucasian by anyone’s definition.

    Christopher Rodriguez, WHITE male. Arrested July 19, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Assault On A Female

    Alejandro Morales, WHITE male. Arrested July 18, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Driving While Impaired.

    Francisco Gomez Alaniz, WHITE male. Arrested July 16, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Driving While License Revoked. Prior charges include Communicating Threats and Carrying a Concealed Weapon.

    Raul Angel Ramos, WHITE male. Arrested July 16, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Driving While Impaired. Previously charged with DWI on 9-10-2014

    Jose Eric Mendoza-Lopez, WHITE male. Arrested July 15, 2015. Charges: Misdemeanor Probation Violations (two counts)

    Jose Abraham Gongora-Piza, WHITE male. Arrested July 14, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Resisting Public Officer. Prior charges include Misdemeanor Assault On A Child Under 12 and Assault On A Female

    Candido Escondria-Gayosso, WHITE male. Arrested July 13, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Driving While Impaired. Previously charged with Driving While License Revoked on 10-23-2013

    Martin Palacios Rios, WHITE male. Age 22. Arrested July 13, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Simple Assault.

    Martin Palacios Grimaldo, WHITE male. Age 42. Arrested July 13, 2015. Charge: Felony Assault With A Deadly Weapon Serious Injury. Are these two father and son?

    Esteban Fuentes-Sanchez, WHITE male. Arrested July 12, 2015. Charge: Misdemeanor Assault On A Female

    Mark Castro, WHITE male. Arrested 7-10-15. Charges: Six Misdemeanors: DWI Alcohol, DWLR, Drive Wrong Way, Three Counts Failure to Appear (on previous charges) DWLR, Speeding in excess of 35 MPH, Expired Registration Card/Tag

    Javier Hernandez, WHITE male. Arrested 7-10-15. Charges: Three Misdemeanors: Carry Concealed Weapon, Consume Alcohol under 19, Resisting Public Officer.

    Cesar Humberto Gonzalez-Angel, WHITE male. Arrested 7-8-15. Charges: Nine Felonies all for selling cocaine

    White male. Arrested 7-3-15. Charge: DWI. Prior charges: DWI Alcohol (8-2-14), DWI (11-25-13)

    Notice any patterns? Assault, Driving While Impaired, Assault on a Female, Driving with License Revoked, Assault, Driving While Impaired

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  227. MarkinLA says:

    Looks like some more of Unz’ model minority at it again.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/group-of-taggers-suspected-of-fatally-shooting-man-in-orange-county-california/

    I surely do remember all those white 20 something vandals shooting people who told them to stop back in the day. Yeah, those Hispanics are just like whites!

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  228. DNA says:
    @Anonymous
    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics):

    Come to Chicago; live (if you do) for 3 days and I'll tell you about my
    now virtually all--Hispanic neighorhood which has destroyed what used to be--
    ii.e. a place I grew up that was: clean, no gang signs carved into old tree trunks,
    no graffiti almost every building you look, no acid-marred storefronts, no wandering
    (and threatening) gang-bangers walking and hanging out on your streets,
    no horrendous gang-land style crime like assasinations,, no next door neighbors who have been
    arrested for major drug-dealing w. the cartels in Mexico, no
    epidemic of stray dogs and cats and even chickens (and I've
    been told by police, goats and horses found in garages), no huge
    gang wars with the blacks (most likely causing the majority of
    shootings of black children), no rampant theft and attacks on
    the elderly robbing them and knocking them down, and children coming home from school
    being beat up for a cell phone. I could go on and on. And it happened when Bush contracted
    w. the then Mexican el president, Fox, and let loose the legion of immigrants to run helter-
    skelter across America, tearing down the American middle-class, while the politicos (who DO
    have an agenda that suits them so there is NO loyalty anymore for America) seduce these
    violent, greedy, mobs (until one day the plug WILL be pulled on them too) and give them every form of welfare and concession-- even over American citizens-- or they take it anyway by starting
    up criminal enterprise here. Yeah, Unz, you come here...if you dare. Meantime, your lies in defense of trash are meaningless....

    They won’t listen here. Too busy running the USA into the ditch.

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  229. Discard says:

    As a rule, Mexicans do not have the deep hatred of Whites that many Blacks do. They will steal your car or burglarize your house if you’re not home, but they won’t beat or kill you, generally. They usually limit their killing to friends, enemies, and family. I worked for a while at Garfield High School, which proudly graduates 10 percent of their entering 9th graders, but I never felt threatened at all.

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    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome


    They usually limit their killing to friends, enemies, and family.

     

    Do they consider those opposed to immigration to be enemies?

    Univision dumps Trump, cancels Miss USA over his comments about Mexicans

    Donald Trump beefs up security after El Chapo death threat


    “Keep f–king around and I’m gonna make you swallow your whore words you f–king whitey milks–tter,” the user @ElChap0Gusman taunted Trump in the menacing message, which reached hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers.

     

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  230. @Discard
    As a rule, Mexicans do not have the deep hatred of Whites that many Blacks do. They will steal your car or burglarize your house if you're not home, but they won't beat or kill you, generally. They usually limit their killing to friends, enemies, and family. I worked for a while at Garfield High School, which proudly graduates 10 percent of their entering 9th graders, but I never felt threatened at all.

    They usually limit their killing to friends, enemies, and family.

    Do they consider those opposed to immigration to be enemies?

    Univision dumps Trump, cancels Miss USA over his comments about Mexicans

    Donald Trump beefs up security after El Chapo death threat

    “Keep f–king around and I’m gonna make you swallow your whore words you f–king whitey milks–tter,” the user @ElChap0Gusman taunted Trump in the menacing message, which reached hundreds of thousands of Twitter followers.

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  231. Jeff77450 says:
    @Dahlia
    Unless I am missing something, the debate is over.
    The release of the more detailed DOJ stats ends all the guesswork, Ron won.
    I excerpted Jared Taylor above and this is from Real Clear Politics which Ron linked:

    Whites 14 per 1,000
    Blacks 40 per 1,000
    Hispanics 18 per 1,000
    So, Hispanics have a higher rate than whites — almost 30 percent higher. But Hispanics also tend to be younger. In the 2012-13 Census data, 41 percent of Hispanics are age 16-40, compared with 30 percent of whites and 36 percent of blacks. So, relative to whites, Hispanics are about 30 percent more likely to commit violent crimes, but also about 30 percent more likely to be in the age range where violent crimes are most common.
     

    What you and Ron are (consistently) missing is that a great many Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos are identified/listed as “white” and that distorts the statistics.

    https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    Whites are probably overrepresented in the crime-statistics and H/L/C’s are almost certainly underrepresented.

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    • Replies: @Jeff77450
    https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten
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  232. Jeff77450 says:
    @Jeff77450
    What you and Ron are (consistently) missing is that a great many Hispanics/Latinos/Chicanos are identified/listed as "white" and that distorts the statistics.

    https://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx

    Whites are probably overrepresented in the crime-statistics and H/L/C's are almost certainly underrepresented.
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  233. And then there’s this top ten, from the 2nd comment:

    http://www.txdps.state.tx.us/Texas10MostWanted/fugitives.aspx .

    Presumably this changes regularly. Right now the names are Dominguez, Jimenez, Cruz, Osborn, Alaniz, Aguirre, DeLeon, Lopez, Rodriguez and Arevalo. Osborn looks white, the rest brown. All are identified as “White”, so their contribution to the “Hispanic” crime rate is uncertain.

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  234. 123 says:

    Americans are violent wherever they come from and wherever they go. It’s cultural and that culture is a terrible disease poisoning the world.

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  235. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I bet the commenters here would hate to find out that the US’s first admiral was Hispanic David Farragut “Damn the torpedoes!! Full Speed ahead!!

    They would also hate to find out that many Mexicans under Spain fought for the 13 colonies under General Bernardo De Galvez the then Louisiana governor.
    In fact,Gen.Bernardo De Galvez’s front is sometimes called the Hispanic Western,SouthWestern front.
    Hispanics kept Britain at bay from invading from the West through Canada and the South through Florida.
    Hispanics along with locals and even freed Blacks pushed the British out of Central US back into Canada and pushed the British out of Mobile and Florida securing the flanks for Washington.
    For this,at George Washington’s invitation Gen.Bernardo De Galvez rode to Washington;s right at the very first 4th of July parade,not Lafayette.

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  236. This is a good analysis of why hispanic immigrants don’t have a much different crime rate than Americans, adjusting for things like living in a city, age, and sex. But that’s misleading. When we let in hispanic immigrants, we’re letting in poor, poorly educated, urban, young, men. What the analysis shows is that it’s fine to let in rich old ladies from Mexico, which is true. But that’s not the policy question.

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  237. Penelope says:

    I’m sorry, don’t mean to be argumentative, but I don’t see that it’s helpful to me if I’m a crime victim to reflect that it wouldn’t have occurred if the perp had been either 45 and/or female.
    I suppose this is an interesting theoretical question which might mitigate against racism: Do Hispanics commit more crime than comparably aged, comparably sexed, comparably wealthy whites?

    But it’s a bit of a floating abstraction for most of us, since we’ve no ability to change those characteristics among our city’s Hispanics. The relevant question for us is simply “Does the influx of Hispanic immigrants increase crime in our neighborhoods?” Many newspapers have a weekly crime/arrest/court feature. The names are mostly Spanish.

    In the interest of full disclosure, I like the Mexican culture, have visited & lived there, speak the language fluently. The last time that I was there I rented a house & had six families as neighbors. Each of the six had a family member who had fled to the other side of the border after running into problems with the police– 4 of them for murder.

    Twice while I visited a different Mexican village 20 years ago a murder was commited– one by a 14 year old boy who had stabbed a friend. Another by a nice man whom I knew.

    These occurrences were in the state of Jalisco. When I spent 4 months in Nyarit I was told of two previous killings: One of a judge & his guests in the very house I was renting. The other of a man who had become a sniper and killed several people; the cause was a resentment since childhood against a particular schoolmate, but then he continued inexplicably to shoot at others too.

    When I lived in Venice, California I was the last person to speak to a successful Mexican who owned one auto repair shop and was thinking of opening another, he told me. Later that afternoon he went to the workplace of his lover who lived across the street. He shot her dead & then himself. He was around 40.

    These are my sole experiences with violent crime. You would have a tough time convincing me that there is not among Mexicans an increased predilection to escalating violent emotion rather than tamping it down. Perhaps it has to do w the willingness to feel emotion– positive as well as negative: they are a very warm people who display almost family feeling towards others upon short acquaintance.

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  238. woodNfish says:

    All illegal aliens are criminals by virtue of the fact they are here illegally. I don’t care what their reasons were for violating our immigration laws and I don’t care how many kids they’ve had since they’ve been here. They are here illegally and their children have no legal right to citizenship either. Deport them.

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  239. woodNfish says:
    @Anonymous
    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics):

    Come to Chicago; live (if you do) for 3 days and I'll tell you about my
    now virtually all--Hispanic neighorhood which has destroyed what used to be--
    ii.e. a place I grew up that was: clean, no gang signs carved into old tree trunks,
    no graffiti almost every building you look, no acid-marred storefronts, no wandering
    (and threatening) gang-bangers walking and hanging out on your streets,
    no horrendous gang-land style crime like assasinations,, no next door neighbors who have been
    arrested for major drug-dealing w. the cartels in Mexico, no
    epidemic of stray dogs and cats and even chickens (and I've
    been told by police, goats and horses found in garages), no huge
    gang wars with the blacks (most likely causing the majority of
    shootings of black children), no rampant theft and attacks on
    the elderly robbing them and knocking them down, and children coming home from school
    being beat up for a cell phone. I could go on and on. And it happened when Bush contracted
    w. the then Mexican el president, Fox, and let loose the legion of immigrants to run helter-
    skelter across America, tearing down the American middle-class, while the politicos (who DO
    have an agenda that suits them so there is NO loyalty anymore for America) seduce these
    violent, greedy, mobs (until one day the plug WILL be pulled on them too) and give them every form of welfare and concession-- even over American citizens-- or they take it anyway by starting
    up criminal enterprise here. Yeah, Unz, you come here...if you dare. Meantime, your lies in defense of trash are meaningless....

    Ron Unz (a Hispanic writing about Hispanics)

    This is part of the problem. There is no such thing as a hispanic race, it is a phony political designation created to give Spanish speaking citizens more welfare and political recognition. The leftist latino activists in the early 1970s were arguing for Spanish speaking citizens to be recognized as a single homogenous group. They got what they wanted even though the group has nothing in common among its member groups. Mexican descendants are not white European Spanish, nor are white European Spanish descendants the same as Puerto Ricans and Cuban descendants. These people only share the Spanish language, not a common culture. Even so, but they are all considered to be “hispanics”. It was a phony BS designation from the start and it should be done away with.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    The Hispanic race or classificationwas created by executive order of president Nixon in late 1969 in time for the 1970 census. It was invented by the Ford Foundation and its front groups MALDEF and LARAZA
    Nixon of course obeyed the orders of the Ford Foundation because that's the purpose of American Presidents; to obey the powers that be.
    Affirmative action was included in Nixon's executive order and confirmed by a couple lawsuits in the next few years.

    That is why I detest seeing Pat Buchanan still pushing his book about how Nixon won the Presidency. I was 26 when Nixon was elected. My thing is anti affirmative action and in my expert opinion Nixon was the worst President for Whites.

    Affirmative action, section 8, the opening to China, were all done by President Nixon.
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  240. Crime is about malicious damage, hurt, misappropriation of property, etc according to the individual doing the deed as opposed to his ethnic or racial affiliation.

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  241. kikz says:

    hispanic crime a myth.. yeah….right.. sure… http://www.newnation.org/NNN-news-invasion.html and.. who bothers to utilize weighted averages and statistical analysis with what 7 charts.. then quotes wiki as a reliable reference???????????????????????????? gimme a break……

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    • Replies: @HispanicTexan
    Most of theses mugshots are either illegal aliens or second generation Americans. Makes sense because Mexico is somewhat anarchy and violent as Syria. Second generation Americans have lower education, because their parents don't speak English.

    I descend from several generations ago during New Spain before Texas was Mexico. Many Hispanics are like that in South Texas. Most of Hispanics in South Texas don't speak Spanish at all. I notice that most of violent monolingual English speaking Hispanics are either in street or prison gangs. They usually commit crimes on each others. Better stay away from them, because who knows what they are thinking in their head. Their idea of respect is warped.

    Rapists and predators, they are rather individual. I could send you a link of long list of mugshots showing white pedophiles. Longer than illegal aliens, because this is a white country. There are more white serial killers. Mexican serial killers kill for cartels, and motivated by money. White serial killers kill for hobby.

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  242. I learned something from this article. Thanks Ron Unz. I would not have guessed that hispanic crime is really not that much higher than white crime.

    There are multiple confounds to this study that make the picture far cloudier than is portrayed by Ron Unz which is no fault of his, it simply is a very complex picture. Hispanics are quite obviously incredibly variable so that lumping them all together isn’t very useful. Still, a picture emerges far different than normal stereotypes. Latinos of Mexican descent commit far less crime in this country than southern white trash, I find that interesting and amusing.

    I particularly appreciated the comments of Pincher Martin, he has a scholarly approach. I would however respond to his interesting critique that latino crime rates are artificially lowered because a lot of so called latinos in name only. Wouldn’t that be counter balanced by the higher crime rates of latinos that are of african american?

    All in all one of the best articles I have read here at Unz review for quite some time because I found it thought provoking. New immigrants aren’t coming here to rape and plunder, as The Donald says, they are coming here to work and get ahead.

    The comment section over here at Unz review is sadly lacking in scholarly approach, come on people, pick up your game or STFU.

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  243. Brohemius says:
    @conatus
    This is a great paragraph and very persuasive:
    "And as it happens, the age distribution in America for Hispanics and non-Hispanic whites is quite different. The median age for Hispanics is around 27, near the absolute peak of the prime-crime age range. But the median white age is over 40, putting nearly half the white population above the likely age range for committing crimes. While it is certainly true that Hispanic 23-year-olds have much greater criminal tendencies than white 45-year-olds, a more useful question is the relative criminality of Hispanics and whites of the same age. Also, many Hispanics are immigrants, and since immigrants are more likely to be male, there will be a gender skew in the general Hispanic population. Therefore, let us consider the Hispanic imprisonment rate relative to the number of males in the high-crime age range."

    My only question would echo Ann Coulter, if Hispanic crime is benign why does the Government and the Media make it so hard to find the numbers? Like she says, if they can count the number of rental units with no balustrades on the stairs why can't they count Hispanics? When I was younger I has access to Nexis and I was never able to find decent numbers. I am no statistician so I need someone to spoon feed me the corralled statistics and I was surprised there was no one out there with a spoon.

    Ann Coulter is a “Christian Zionist” with only a passing familiarity with the Christian part. She knows that if she wants to keep appearing on TV she has to refrain from criticizing black people, individually and as a group. So, she blames all America’s social pathologies, ultimately, on the Catholic Church. You see, black folks sometimes behave badly because, earlier in America’s history, they lived in the same neighborhoods as Irish people! And, as we all know, the Irish are Catholic! And Mexicans commit crimes because they believe in a Catholic-style extended family! And black folks can’t really be evil ’cause they’re mostly Baptists!

    How she ever got blacklisted by National review I’ll never know. It seems she fits in wonderfully with Richard Brookheiser and all the other anti-Catholics there.

    She’s running from the truth about the U.S.A. as hard as she can. But both time and truth will ultimately overtake her, as they do all of us.

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  244. Written from your palatial estate in Santa Ana, California, no doubt.

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