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What Should We Do About Crimea?
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Is Crimea about to explode? The mainstream media reports that Russia has amassed troops on the border with Ukraine and may be spoiling for a fight. The Russians claim to have stopped a Ukrainian sabotage team that snuck into Crimea to attack key infrastructure. The Russian military is holding exercises in Crimea and Russian President Vladimir Putin made a visit to the peninsula at the end of the week.

The Ukrainians have complained to their western supporters that a full-scale Russian invasion is coming, and Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko said he may have to rule by martial law due to the Russian threat.

Though the US media pins the blame exclusively on Russia for these tensions, in reality there is plenty of blame to go around. We do know that the US government has been involved with “regime change” in Ukraine repeatedly since the break up of the Soviet Union. The US was deeply involved with the “Orange Revolution” that overthrew elected president Viktor Yanukovych in 2005. And we know that the US government was heavily involved in another coup that overthrew the same elected Yanukovych again in 2014.

How do we know that the US was behind the 2014 coup? For one, we have the intercepted telephone call between US Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland and US Ambassador to Ukraine, Geoffrey Pyatt. In the recording, the two US officials are plotting to remove the elected government and discussing which US puppet they will put in place.

You would think such undiplomatic behavior could get diplomats fired, but sadly in today’s State Department it can actually get you promoted! Nuland is widely expected to get a big promotion – perhaps to even Secretary of State – in a Hillary Clinton administration, and Geoffrey Pyatt has just moved up to an Ambassadorship in Athens.

Ambassador Pyatt can’t seem to control himself: Just as tensions were peaking between Russia and Ukraine over Crimea this month, he published a series of Tweets urging Ukraine to take back Crimea. Is this how our diplomats overseas should be acting? Should they be promoting actions they know will lead to war?

When the mainstream media discusses Crimea they are all lock-step: that’s the peninsula Putin annexed. Never do they mention that there was a referendum in which the vast majority of the population (who are mostly ethnic Russians) voted to join Russia. The US media never reports on this referendum because it produced results that Washington doesn’t like. How arrogant it must sound to the rest of the world that Washington reserves the right to approve or disapprove elections thousands of miles away – meanwhile we find out from the DNC hacked files that we don’t have a lot of room to criticize elections overseas.

What should we do about Ukraine and Russia? We should stop egging Ukraine on, we should stop subsidizing the government in Kiev, we should stop NATO exercises on the Russian border, we should end sanctions, we should return to diplomacy, we should send the policy of “regime change” to the dustbin of history. The idea that we would be facing the prospect of World War III over which flag flies above a tiny finger of land that most US politicians couldn’t find on a map is utterly ridiculous. When are we going to come to our senses?

(Reprinted from The Ron Paul Institute by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Ukraine 
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  1. I suggest giving all the neocons rifles and sending them to Ukraine to take Crimea back.

    A neocon human wave attack sounds nice except that they’re not human.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {I suggest giving all the neocons rifles and sending them to Ukraine to take Crimea back.}

    Very well said.

    {A neocon human wave attack sounds nice except that they’re not human.}

    It's OK: I understand reptiles bleed and die from hot-lead poising same as humans. So, by all means: let us all humans cheer for the neocons to launch a reptile wave attack in Crimea, so they can be properly cauterized and rendered harmless.
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  2. @Drapetomaniac
    I suggest giving all the neocons rifles and sending them to Ukraine to take Crimea back.

    A neocon human wave attack sounds nice except that they're not human.

    {I suggest giving all the neocons rifles and sending them to Ukraine to take Crimea back.}

    Very well said.

    {A neocon human wave attack sounds nice except that they’re not human.}

    It’s OK: I understand reptiles bleed and die from hot-lead poising same as humans. So, by all means: let us all humans cheer for the neocons to launch a reptile wave attack in Crimea, so they can be properly cauterized and rendered harmless.

    Read More
  3. You can view the verbiage the Neocons spew forth over the Crimea as nothing more than hot air. In reality, any Ukrainian attack on the Crimea would be quickly repulsed. If the forces included US or Nato support, however, then the consequences would be very serious indeed.
    All the more important that President Trump is elected in November.

    Read More
  4. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Jewish Supremacists are just as evil as the Nazis.

    I’m guessing there are many Jews who are appalled by this kind of behavior. Thank Todd for Stephen Cohen. But a lot of Jews don’t seem to mind, and there are more of them in top echelons of government.

    Read More
  5. Ambassador Pyatt can’t seem to control himself: Just as tensions were peaking between Russia and Ukraine over Crimea this month, he published a series of Tweets urging Ukraine to take back Crimea. Is this how our diplomats overseas should be acting? Should they be promoting actions they know will lead to war?

    Why don’t other countries have this problem?

    The Chinese ambassador to Russia isn’t telling them to march into Kiev. The Russian ambassador to Israel isn’t telling them to steal some more Palestinian land. The British high commissioner in India isn’t telling them to attack Kashmir.

    Read More
  6. I suppose we could set a good example and set Hawaii free.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Not to worry, Hawaii will eventually be majority Filipino, albeit much later than Guam, which is farther down that path. I don't know where "Hawaiians"' loyalties will lie then, but we will find out.

    Presumably the coming Chinese naval blockade will resolve that issue for all of us. Not entirely joking.
  7. Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane. The evidence against Russia is quite stark. From Crimea to the Donbas, to MH-17, to now, Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine and get it back under his thumb. The Ukrainians disagree, vehemently, with that idea and have had national aspirations since Nevsky murdered the Prince of Ukraine at Kazan. Paul would deny them their identity.

    The US is not “egging” on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. There is evidence that Soros was involved with supporting Maidan, not US FedGov. Ukraine may have to fight for their freedom and for their national aspirations. Supporting them in that is not “egging” anyone on. Putin, on the other hand, needs to get back into his own borders and mind his own business. The biggest threat to Russia is her own criminal element, of which Putin is a part.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WorkingClass
    You are a liar!
    , @The Alarmist

    "The US is not “egging” on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. "
     
    Yeah, that whole "F*ck the EU" and "Yats is our guy" phone call by Vicky Nudlemann is conclusive evidence that the US had absolutely nothing to do with the overthrow of the elected Government (not just President, but also much of the Parliament).
    , @bluedog
    Lol hear you go again,of course we the U.S. didn't create the failed state known as the Ukraine,we didn't fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government and its just our imagination that Vicky said "fuck the E.U. Yats" is our man, why is it simply our imagination because LMAO it was Putin again and again and again.!!!.!!!
    , @RadicalCenter
    Are you a GS-15, or less well compensated than that?
  8. Step away from the computer, NOW! Sir. Unplug it and kindly carry it to the curb. Thank you.

    Read More
  9. @Quartermaster
    Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane. The evidence against Russia is quite stark. From Crimea to the Donbas, to MH-17, to now, Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine and get it back under his thumb. The Ukrainians disagree, vehemently, with that idea and have had national aspirations since Nevsky murdered the Prince of Ukraine at Kazan. Paul would deny them their identity.

    The US is not "egging" on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. There is evidence that Soros was involved with supporting Maidan, not US FedGov. Ukraine may have to fight for their freedom and for their national aspirations. Supporting them in that is not "egging" anyone on. Putin, on the other hand, needs to get back into his own borders and mind his own business. The biggest threat to Russia is her own criminal element, of which Putin is a part.

    You are a liar!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    You simply refuse to look out the window and think for yourself. The truth is out there as it's escaped captivity. You have to be willing to think for yourself and not swallow the propaganda that Ron Paul has absorbed and spews.

    When you know the truth, then you can judge if someone is liar. Not until.
  10. @Quartermaster
    Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane. The evidence against Russia is quite stark. From Crimea to the Donbas, to MH-17, to now, Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine and get it back under his thumb. The Ukrainians disagree, vehemently, with that idea and have had national aspirations since Nevsky murdered the Prince of Ukraine at Kazan. Paul would deny them their identity.

    The US is not "egging" on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. There is evidence that Soros was involved with supporting Maidan, not US FedGov. Ukraine may have to fight for their freedom and for their national aspirations. Supporting them in that is not "egging" anyone on. Putin, on the other hand, needs to get back into his own borders and mind his own business. The biggest threat to Russia is her own criminal element, of which Putin is a part.

    “The US is not “egging” on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. “

    Yeah, that whole “F*ck the EU” and “Yats is our guy” phone call by Vicky Nudlemann is conclusive evidence that the US had absolutely nothing to do with the overthrow of the elected Government (not just President, but also much of the Parliament).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Quartermaster
    Both you and Working Class are idiots who refuse to actually get out and investigate things for yourself. You're simply too willing to swallow the conspiracy theories of idiots like Ron Paul and others.

    The people of Ukraine don't want to be back under Russia. They remember, all too well, the discrimination they, and other minorities, suffered under a Russian dominated Soviet Union and tsarist Empire. Even Soros had to do little when Yanukovich was betraying them to Russia to raise any sort of protest. Yanukovich didn't learn the first time when he was thrown out by the Orange Revolution (where are Putin then when the CIA actually was involved?).

    The US hasn't had to egg anyone on in Ukraine. They're quite capable of rising themselves, as they've shown at Maidan.
  11. Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane.

    Nobody is talking about giving all of Ukraine back to the Russians.

    However, the border between Ukraine and Russia makes no sense by any objective standard. If a Martian came to Earth and was asked to draw the border between Ukraine and Russia, there’s no way he’d select the current border.

    It’s usually better to let these things work themselves out. Ukraine would not be so intransigent if they knew they were on their own. They would have to settle.

    Read More
  12. @NoseytheDuke
    Step away from the computer, NOW! Sir. Unplug it and kindly carry it to the curb. Thank you.

    That comment was meant for Quartermaster.

    Read More
  13. @The Alarmist

    "The US is not “egging” on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. "
     
    Yeah, that whole "F*ck the EU" and "Yats is our guy" phone call by Vicky Nudlemann is conclusive evidence that the US had absolutely nothing to do with the overthrow of the elected Government (not just President, but also much of the Parliament).

    Both you and Working Class are idiots who refuse to actually get out and investigate things for yourself. You’re simply too willing to swallow the conspiracy theories of idiots like Ron Paul and others.

    The people of Ukraine don’t want to be back under Russia. They remember, all too well, the discrimination they, and other minorities, suffered under a Russian dominated Soviet Union and tsarist Empire. Even Soros had to do little when Yanukovich was betraying them to Russia to raise any sort of protest. Yanukovich didn’t learn the first time when he was thrown out by the Orange Revolution (where are Putin then when the CIA actually was involved?).

    The US hasn’t had to egg anyone on in Ukraine. They’re quite capable of rising themselves, as they’ve shown at Maidan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Both you and Working Class are idiots ...."
     
    Your opinion, sir. I will refrain from such a blatant appraisal of you.

    "The people of Ukraine don’t want to be back under Russia."
     
    The people of Crimea, once a part of Ukraine, decided in a relatively fair election that they did indeed want to be a part of Russia.

    I think of referenda like these while I watch my ballot being swallowed by the good old Diebold and wonder if it might be better for the US to adopt a paper ballot and purple-ink finger tagging process to ensure my vote in US elections gets the proper weight it deserves.

    I also wonder, when trolled by people like you, if you have any sense that saying the Crimean referendum is illegitimate does not at all comport with the opinion held by the likes of you that the Kosovar referendum was a legitimate basis for separating that geography from its parent country, Serbia.
  14. @WorkingClass
    You are a liar!

    You simply refuse to look out the window and think for yourself. The truth is out there as it’s escaped captivity. You have to be willing to think for yourself and not swallow the propaganda that Ron Paul has absorbed and spews.

    When you know the truth, then you can judge if someone is liar. Not until.

    Read More
  15. @Quartermaster
    Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane. The evidence against Russia is quite stark. From Crimea to the Donbas, to MH-17, to now, Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine and get it back under his thumb. The Ukrainians disagree, vehemently, with that idea and have had national aspirations since Nevsky murdered the Prince of Ukraine at Kazan. Paul would deny them their identity.

    The US is not "egging" on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. There is evidence that Soros was involved with supporting Maidan, not US FedGov. Ukraine may have to fight for their freedom and for their national aspirations. Supporting them in that is not "egging" anyone on. Putin, on the other hand, needs to get back into his own borders and mind his own business. The biggest threat to Russia is her own criminal element, of which Putin is a part.

    Lol hear you go again,of course we the U.S. didn’t create the failed state known as the Ukraine,we didn’t fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government and its just our imagination that Vicky said “fuck the E.U. Yats” is our man, why is it simply our imagination because LMAO it was Putin again and again and again.!!!.!!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    U.S. didn’t create the failed state known as the Ukraine
     
    Correct. Ukraine emerged from the collapsed USSR as a former republic of the USSR. It was no more created by the USA than were other former republics such as Russia, Uzbekistan, Latvia, Georgia, Armenia, etc.

    we didn’t fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government
     
    Correct. The "$5 billion" referred to the total amount of aide given to Ukraine since independence in 1991. Actual quote is here: "“Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ”

    The money went not only to support civil society initiatives but stuff like containing Chernobyl, medical equipment, etc.

    Naive pro-Russians who swallow whatever Russian propaganda says believe that $ 5 billion was spent in 2013 and 2014 to overthrow Yanukovich. Sure, in 1991 the USA predicted that Yanukovich would become president 20 years later so they were already spending money to overthrow him. :-)

    As for elected government - Yanukovich was indeed elected legitimately. He then did a lot of illegitimate things, becoming a de facto dictator. If Obama decided to take over the Supreme Court, cancel the Republican Congress and fixed election rules so he could control it despite losing the congressional midterm elections, giving himself total power over the country, would you condemn his overthrow because he had once been "elected"?

    If Ron Paul has no problem with Russia grabbing territory in Ukraine because it has Russian speakers, he should also declare that in principle he would have no problem with Mexico one day just seizing California, Texas or other regions once they achieve Mexican majorities. Cause international laws, borders don't really matter.
  16. @Quartermaster
    You simply refuse to look out the window and think for yourself. The truth is out there as it's escaped captivity. You have to be willing to think for yourself and not swallow the propaganda that Ron Paul has absorbed and spews.

    When you know the truth, then you can judge if someone is liar. Not until.

    You are a liar!

    Read More
  17. @bluedog
    Lol hear you go again,of course we the U.S. didn't create the failed state known as the Ukraine,we didn't fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government and its just our imagination that Vicky said "fuck the E.U. Yats" is our man, why is it simply our imagination because LMAO it was Putin again and again and again.!!!.!!!

    U.S. didn’t create the failed state known as the Ukraine

    Correct. Ukraine emerged from the collapsed USSR as a former republic of the USSR. It was no more created by the USA than were other former republics such as Russia, Uzbekistan, Latvia, Georgia, Armenia, etc.

    we didn’t fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government

    Correct. The “$5 billion” referred to the total amount of aide given to Ukraine since independence in 1991. Actual quote is here: ““Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government – all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ”

    The money went not only to support civil society initiatives but stuff like containing Chernobyl, medical equipment, etc.

    Naive pro-Russians who swallow whatever Russian propaganda says believe that $ 5 billion was spent in 2013 and 2014 to overthrow Yanukovich. Sure, in 1991 the USA predicted that Yanukovich would become president 20 years later so they were already spending money to overthrow him. :-)

    As for elected government – Yanukovich was indeed elected legitimately. He then did a lot of illegitimate things, becoming a de facto dictator. If Obama decided to take over the Supreme Court, cancel the Republican Congress and fixed election rules so he could control it despite losing the congressional midterm elections, giving himself total power over the country, would you condemn his overthrow because he had once been “elected”?

    If Ron Paul has no problem with Russia grabbing territory in Ukraine because it has Russian speakers, he should also declare that in principle he would have no problem with Mexico one day just seizing California, Texas or other regions once they achieve Mexican majorities. Cause international laws, borders don’t really matter.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    In fact, whether you agree with Ron Paul on this one or not, force is always what matters in the end, not international law. So-called international law is written, interpreted , and enforced (or not enforced) by the most powerful countries, period.

    A world-bestriding China, by the way, is not going to care about the opinions of Russians, Americans, or anyone else when they decide they need ukraine's incredibly fertile farmland, the Russian East's minerals or water supplies or simply open space, or Nigeria's oil.
    , @jtgw
    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites. I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don't want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him. Whether or not it was justified for Ukrainians to overthrow him does not mean we are justified in meddling in other countries' affairs and spending American taxpayer dollars on regime change. In any case, it's hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.
  18. @The Alarmist
    I suppose we could set a good example and set Hawaii free.

    Not to worry, Hawaii will eventually be majority Filipino, albeit much later than Guam, which is farther down that path. I don’t know where “Hawaiians”‘ loyalties will lie then, but we will find out.

    Presumably the coming Chinese naval blockade will resolve that issue for all of us. Not entirely joking.

    Read More
  19. @Quartermaster
    Shorter Ron Paul: Just give Ukraine back to the Russians.

    Paul got no traction as a POTUS candidate because his foreign policy ideas are simply insane. The evidence against Russia is quite stark. From Crimea to the Donbas, to MH-17, to now, Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine and get it back under his thumb. The Ukrainians disagree, vehemently, with that idea and have had national aspirations since Nevsky murdered the Prince of Ukraine at Kazan. Paul would deny them their identity.

    The US is not "egging" on Ukraine, nor was the US government involved with Maidan. There is evidence that Soros was involved with supporting Maidan, not US FedGov. Ukraine may have to fight for their freedom and for their national aspirations. Supporting them in that is not "egging" anyone on. Putin, on the other hand, needs to get back into his own borders and mind his own business. The biggest threat to Russia is her own criminal element, of which Putin is a part.

    Are you a GS-15, or less well compensated than that?

    Read More
  20. @AP

    U.S. didn’t create the failed state known as the Ukraine
     
    Correct. Ukraine emerged from the collapsed USSR as a former republic of the USSR. It was no more created by the USA than were other former republics such as Russia, Uzbekistan, Latvia, Georgia, Armenia, etc.

    we didn’t fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government
     
    Correct. The "$5 billion" referred to the total amount of aide given to Ukraine since independence in 1991. Actual quote is here: "“Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ”

    The money went not only to support civil society initiatives but stuff like containing Chernobyl, medical equipment, etc.

    Naive pro-Russians who swallow whatever Russian propaganda says believe that $ 5 billion was spent in 2013 and 2014 to overthrow Yanukovich. Sure, in 1991 the USA predicted that Yanukovich would become president 20 years later so they were already spending money to overthrow him. :-)

    As for elected government - Yanukovich was indeed elected legitimately. He then did a lot of illegitimate things, becoming a de facto dictator. If Obama decided to take over the Supreme Court, cancel the Republican Congress and fixed election rules so he could control it despite losing the congressional midterm elections, giving himself total power over the country, would you condemn his overthrow because he had once been "elected"?

    If Ron Paul has no problem with Russia grabbing territory in Ukraine because it has Russian speakers, he should also declare that in principle he would have no problem with Mexico one day just seizing California, Texas or other regions once they achieve Mexican majorities. Cause international laws, borders don't really matter.

    In fact, whether you agree with Ron Paul on this one or not, force is always what matters in the end, not international law. So-called international law is written, interpreted , and enforced (or not enforced) by the most powerful countries, period.

    A world-bestriding China, by the way, is not going to care about the opinions of Russians, Americans, or anyone else when they decide they need ukraine’s incredibly fertile farmland, the Russian East’s minerals or water supplies or simply open space, or Nigeria’s oil.

    Read More
  21. @AP

    U.S. didn’t create the failed state known as the Ukraine
     
    Correct. Ukraine emerged from the collapsed USSR as a former republic of the USSR. It was no more created by the USA than were other former republics such as Russia, Uzbekistan, Latvia, Georgia, Armenia, etc.

    we didn’t fund to the tune of $5 billion dollars the overthrow of an elected government
     
    Correct. The "$5 billion" referred to the total amount of aide given to Ukraine since independence in 1991. Actual quote is here: "“Since the declaration of Ukrainian independence in 1991, the United States supported the Ukrainians in the development of democratic institutions and skills in promoting civil society and a good form of government - all that is necessary to achieve the objectives of Ukraine’s European. We have invested more than 5 billion dollars to help Ukraine to achieve these and other goals. ”

    The money went not only to support civil society initiatives but stuff like containing Chernobyl, medical equipment, etc.

    Naive pro-Russians who swallow whatever Russian propaganda says believe that $ 5 billion was spent in 2013 and 2014 to overthrow Yanukovich. Sure, in 1991 the USA predicted that Yanukovich would become president 20 years later so they were already spending money to overthrow him. :-)

    As for elected government - Yanukovich was indeed elected legitimately. He then did a lot of illegitimate things, becoming a de facto dictator. If Obama decided to take over the Supreme Court, cancel the Republican Congress and fixed election rules so he could control it despite losing the congressional midterm elections, giving himself total power over the country, would you condemn his overthrow because he had once been "elected"?

    If Ron Paul has no problem with Russia grabbing territory in Ukraine because it has Russian speakers, he should also declare that in principle he would have no problem with Mexico one day just seizing California, Texas or other regions once they achieve Mexican majorities. Cause international laws, borders don't really matter.

    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites. I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don’t want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him. Whether or not it was justified for Ukrainians to overthrow him does not mean we are justified in meddling in other countries’ affairs and spending American taxpayer dollars on regime change. In any case, it’s hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP

    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites.
     
    I agree. But two wrongs don't make a right. Ukraine, by the way, for obvious reasons, did not recognize Kosovo.

    I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don’t want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).
     
    Although I disagree on this, I respect your consistency. You are no hypocrite.

    Personally, I prefer precedence for natives, within reason (if natives are down to 5% of the population, there is nothing one can do - but if they are a still-healthy 40% of whatever, it's a different story).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him.
     
    Its role was comparable to, but on a much smaller scale, than, French support for America's war of independence. In addition to spending hundreds of millions of dollars in today's money, the French supplied a naval blockade, actual troops on the ground, etc. to help the Americans. Yet, normal people do not describe the American Revolution as a French plot or French coup.

    In any case, it’s hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.
     
    Two years is too early to make such a judgement. Ukraine's economy has now stabilized.
  22. @Quartermaster
    Both you and Working Class are idiots who refuse to actually get out and investigate things for yourself. You're simply too willing to swallow the conspiracy theories of idiots like Ron Paul and others.

    The people of Ukraine don't want to be back under Russia. They remember, all too well, the discrimination they, and other minorities, suffered under a Russian dominated Soviet Union and tsarist Empire. Even Soros had to do little when Yanukovich was betraying them to Russia to raise any sort of protest. Yanukovich didn't learn the first time when he was thrown out by the Orange Revolution (where are Putin then when the CIA actually was involved?).

    The US hasn't had to egg anyone on in Ukraine. They're quite capable of rising themselves, as they've shown at Maidan.

    “Both you and Working Class are idiots ….”

    Your opinion, sir. I will refrain from such a blatant appraisal of you.

    “The people of Ukraine don’t want to be back under Russia.”

    The people of Crimea, once a part of Ukraine, decided in a relatively fair election that they did indeed want to be a part of Russia.

    I think of referenda like these while I watch my ballot being swallowed by the good old Diebold and wonder if it might be better for the US to adopt a paper ballot and purple-ink finger tagging process to ensure my vote in US elections gets the proper weight it deserves.

    I also wonder, when trolled by people like you, if you have any sense that saying the Crimean referendum is illegitimate does not at all comport with the opinion held by the likes of you that the Kosovar referendum was a legitimate basis for separating that geography from its parent country, Serbia.

    Read More
  23. @jtgw
    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites. I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don't want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him. Whether or not it was justified for Ukrainians to overthrow him does not mean we are justified in meddling in other countries' affairs and spending American taxpayer dollars on regime change. In any case, it's hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.

    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites.

    I agree. But two wrongs don’t make a right. Ukraine, by the way, for obvious reasons, did not recognize Kosovo.

    I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don’t want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).

    Although I disagree on this, I respect your consistency. You are no hypocrite.

    Personally, I prefer precedence for natives, within reason (if natives are down to 5% of the population, there is nothing one can do – but if they are a still-healthy 40% of whatever, it’s a different story).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him.

    Its role was comparable to, but on a much smaller scale, than, French support for America’s war of independence. In addition to spending hundreds of millions of dollars in today’s money, the French supplied a naval blockade, actual troops on the ground, etc. to help the Americans. Yet, normal people do not describe the American Revolution as a French plot or French coup.

    In any case, it’s hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.

    Two years is too early to make such a judgement. Ukraine’s economy has now stabilized.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jtgw
    The problem in Ukraine is that some Ukrainians want to align with the EU and NATO and the US and others with Russia. Since both sides can't be pleased, the sensible thing is to let them go their separate ways or figure out a compromise among themselves. I don't see a good reason why the US should try to fix things so that all Ukrainians are forced to come to our side.
  24. @AP

    The US already threw out the principle of unchangeable borders when they helped Kosovo break away from Serbia. Now they are just hypocrites.
     
    I agree. But two wrongs don't make a right. Ukraine, by the way, for obvious reasons, did not recognize Kosovo.

    I happen to agree with Ron Paul on the right to self-determination, and yes that includes the right of some US states to secede and join other countries, if they wish (if we don’t want them to get Mexican majorities and vote for secession, then of course we should stop Mexican immigration, but we also know places like Texas may have their own reasons for wanting to secede).
     
    Although I disagree on this, I respect your consistency. You are no hypocrite.

    Personally, I prefer precedence for natives, within reason (if natives are down to 5% of the population, there is nothing one can do - but if they are a still-healthy 40% of whatever, it's a different story).

    Nobody is saying the US has spent all that aid just on overthrowing Yanukovich, but you cannot deny that the US did play a significant role in overthrowing him.
     
    Its role was comparable to, but on a much smaller scale, than, French support for America's war of independence. In addition to spending hundreds of millions of dollars in today's money, the French supplied a naval blockade, actual troops on the ground, etc. to help the Americans. Yet, normal people do not describe the American Revolution as a French plot or French coup.

    In any case, it’s hard to argue that all that aid to Ukraine was anything other than a total waste of money, given what a wreck the place has become.
     
    Two years is too early to make such a judgement. Ukraine's economy has now stabilized.

    The problem in Ukraine is that some Ukrainians want to align with the EU and NATO and the US and others with Russia. Since both sides can’t be pleased, the sensible thing is to let them go their separate ways or figure out a compromise among themselves. I don’t see a good reason why the US should try to fix things so that all Ukrainians are forced to come to our side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @AP
    The most hardcore pro-Russian areas in Ukraine (Crimea and urban Donbas) have already left. It makes little sense to try to reintegrate them.

    There are still pro-Russian areas in Ukraine but these are less extremely so, and there is a generation gap (younger Ukrainians are more pro-Western, pensioners nostalgic for the USSR pro-Russian). In the remaining pro-Russian areas the youth are about evenly divided. With time, these areas will become pro-Ukrainian too.
    , @Drapetomaniac
    Your comment is the essence of panarchism.

    Let a person be free from the political beliefs of others.
  25. @jtgw
    The problem in Ukraine is that some Ukrainians want to align with the EU and NATO and the US and others with Russia. Since both sides can't be pleased, the sensible thing is to let them go their separate ways or figure out a compromise among themselves. I don't see a good reason why the US should try to fix things so that all Ukrainians are forced to come to our side.

    The most hardcore pro-Russian areas in Ukraine (Crimea and urban Donbas) have already left. It makes little sense to try to reintegrate them.

    There are still pro-Russian areas in Ukraine but these are less extremely so, and there is a generation gap (younger Ukrainians are more pro-Western, pensioners nostalgic for the USSR pro-Russian). In the remaining pro-Russian areas the youth are about evenly divided. With time, these areas will become pro-Ukrainian too.

    Read More
  26. @jtgw
    The problem in Ukraine is that some Ukrainians want to align with the EU and NATO and the US and others with Russia. Since both sides can't be pleased, the sensible thing is to let them go their separate ways or figure out a compromise among themselves. I don't see a good reason why the US should try to fix things so that all Ukrainians are forced to come to our side.

    Your comment is the essence of panarchism.

    Let a person be free from the political beliefs of others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jtgw
    Not sure what you mean or whether you were trying to compliment or insult me but your first comment leads me to believe we agree on not intervening in Ukraine.
  27. @Drapetomaniac
    Your comment is the essence of panarchism.

    Let a person be free from the political beliefs of others.

    Not sure what you mean or whether you were trying to compliment or insult me but your first comment leads me to believe we agree on not intervening in Ukraine.

    Read More
  28. Philip Owen [AKA "Soarintothesky"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    It would be pointless to try and recover Crimea militarily at this moment. It would be very unlikely to succeed and it would meet deep hostility from most of the population. If the Ukraine government has any sanity then it would not do so. The sanity of Ukrainian politics is of course, particularly questionable. Wait 15 years. Oil consumers like the EU, Turkey, India and even Japan are beginning a long boom. Russia, a major producer will lose its shine.

    Read More
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