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Turkey Is Lying
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Tyler Durden at Zero Hedge has posted the flight paths of the Russian aircraft according to Turkey and to Russia.

We know that Turkey is lying for three reasons.

One reason is that NATO governments lie every time that they open their mouths.

A second reason is that Turkey’s claim that the SU-24 was in Turkey’s airspace for 17 seconds but only traveled 1.15 miles means that the SU-24 was flying at stall speed! The entire Western media was too incompetent to do the basic math!

A third reason is that, assuming Turkey’s claim of a 17 second airspace violation is true, 17 seconds is not long enough for a Turkish pilot to get clearance for such a serious and reckless act as shooting down a Russian military aircraft. If the SU-24 was flying at a normal speed rather than one that would be unable to keep the aircraft aloft, the alleged airspace vioation would not have been long enough to be noticed. A shootdown had to have been pre-arranged. The Turks, knowing that the Russians were foolishly trusting to the agreement that there be no air to air encounters, told pilots to look for an opportunity. In my recent article, I gave a reason for this reckless act:

Turkey’s explanation to the UN Security Council gives itself away as a lie. The letter states: “This morning (24 November) 2 SU-24 planes, the nationality of which are unknown have approached Turkish national airspace. The Planes in quesion have been warned 10 times during a period of 5 minutes via ‘Emergency’ channel and asked to change their headings south immediately.”

As SU-24 are Russian aircraft, as Turkey is able to identify that the aircraft are SU-24s, how then can the nationality of the aircraft be unknown? Would Turkey risk shooting down a US or Israeli aircraft by firing at an unknown aircraft? If the SU-24 takes 17 seconds to fly 1.15 miles, the SU-24s would have only traveled 20.29 miles in five minutes. Does anyone believe that a supersonic aircraft can fly at stall speed for 17 seconds, much less for five minutes?

Do not expect any truth from any Western government or from any Western media. Governments and media know that the Western populations are uneducated, unaware, and can be relied upon to accept any preposterous story. In the West the Matrix has a firm grip. The Russians need to wake up to this fact.


NPR this morning confirmed that the media is a government propaganda organ. The Diane Rehm show on NPR presented us with a group of talking heads. Only one was informed, a professor at the Middle East Institute of the London School of Economics. The rest of the “experts” were the typical dumbshit Americans. They repeated all of the lies. “Russia is attacking everyone except ISIS.” How can there be anyone but ISIS to attack when the US general overseeing the area recently told Congress that “only 5” of our trained “rebels” remained? Yet the myth of “moderate rebels” is kept alive by these liars.

“The refugees are fleeing the brutal Assad.” Notice that it is always Assad who is brutal, not ISIS which has cut out opponents hearts and eaten them and routinely cuts off peoples heads and commits the most atrocious atrocities. Here we have “experts” blaming Assad. The “experts” said that the refugees are fleeing from Assad not from ISIS. The refugee problem is Assad’s fault, not the faut of ISIS. It is all Assad’s fault because he doesn’t give up and turn Syria over to Washington’s ISIS henchmen.

There was no acknowledgement from the “experts” that ISIS is a Washington creation or that until the Paris attack Washington was strongly backing ISIS with both words and weapons against the Russian air attacks that caught both Washington and ISIS off guard. This is extraordinary considering the fact that US responsibility for ISIS was acknowledged on TV by the former head of the Pentagon’s Defense Intelligence Agency.

Gullible Americans who give money to NPR are supporting lies and propaganda that have resulted in the deaths and dislocation of millions of peoples and that are leading to WWIII. The Western media whores are complicit in the crimes, because they fail their responsibility to hold government accountable and make it impossible for valid information to reach people. The Western media serves as cheerleaders for death and destruction.

(Republished from by permission of author or representative)
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Russia, Syria, Turkey 
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  1. Do not expect any truth from any Western government or from any Western media.

    I don’t. But why do they even care what I think. Is my piece of shit government afraid of me?

  2. attonn says:

    Turks ambushed Russians. They already released recordings of their “warnings”, and all one can hear there is “You are approaching Turkish airspace” repeated multiple times, never “You are in Turkish airspace”. Not once. This was an act of war. God bless Putin for having a cool head. I’d already nuked Istanbul.

  3. @attonn

    The world rejoices at that, especially considering that Turkey’s capital is Ankara, not Istanbul.

    • Replies: @Realist
  4. Realist says:

    “I don’t. But why do they even care what I think. Is my piece of shit government afraid of me?”

    Not at all. They lie through habit and convenience.

    • Replies: @WorkingClass
  5. Realist says:

    Strange that the Turks would communicate with Russians in English.

    • Replies: @Honorary Thief
  6. Realist says:

    Is there some rule that you can only nuke a countries capitol?

    Istanbul is more populous than Ankara.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  7. @Realist

    Yes of course. I feel better now.

  8. @Realist

    But also more civilised and European. Besides it is a treasure house of antiquity and of the Ottoman era

  9. @attonn

    Interesting. Not I suppose an act of war in a clear legal sense but homicide or assault which the Turks had obviously decided to commit as soon as the aircraft entered airspace which gave them colourable excuse. Not surprising that the warnings were in Englis is it? It’s certainly the only international language of aviation and even military pilots would be expected to know enough English.

  10. While serving on the USS Enterprise and the USS Coral, it was common knowledge that F-14s and F-18’s catch 3rd wire at 125mph. That’s much closer to “stall” speed.
    Small detail.
    Please keep up the great work.

  11. Kiza says:

    If you ever visited Istambul, you would have known that about 10% of its population are Russian. But not Ankara.

    Of course this was an act of war, but not by Turkey then by US. It was the US which signed an agreement with Russia on NATO’s behalf, to avoid conflict in the air within the so called “anti-ISIS Coalition”. Then the US sicked its Turkish dogs onto undefended Russian bombers (undefended because Putin believed the US). Nobody consulted Obama, he is just a gentleman of color sitting in the White House, enjoying his Nobel Peace Prize. So the Turks asked the US Neocon/Zionist leadership and got permission to shoot. Putin ended up with a huge egg on his face (he called it “knife in the back”) and two dead Russian officers for trusting US. The Neocons/Zionists would have done this even just to enjoy the sight of Putin looking like an idiot in front of the whole World.

    That is the whole story.

    I regret that this cancer called Wizard of Oz is in remission.

    • Replies: @sean stark
  12. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Why the fuss?
    Flying jets is dangerous.

    The Turks have downed aircraft before:

  13. These particular Turkish-backed rebels were not actually ISIS, though I’m not sure that makes much difference. Yes the Turks clearly ambushed and shot down the plane over Syria, it probably never entered Turkish air space. The Turks treat northern Syria as their own.

  14. alexander says:

    Dear Mr Roberts,

    It has become almost second nature for me,( having had to do it much too often over the past decade) to “watch” the N.Y.Times cobbling together their “narrative” on the incident.

    It really is amazing how ensconced in politicized verbiage the paper of note has become.

    ” Narrative molding” seems to be the preeminent craft at work these days, as opposed to “objective journalism” which, like so many of the other finer things the United States once stood for, died on 9-11.

    But it is fascinating to witness the dynamics at work….and watch them revising and ejecting, reconstituting and omitting narratives for narratives until one congeals into the most satisfying” perception management” editorial….for the moment.

    In this case,one that in the end would ” no doubt “denote and project an acceptable…reasonable…and perhaps even ” moral” ground for Turkey’s belligerent actions.

    Massaging “this”, trimming “that”, adding “this” and ejecting “that”….

    The initial narrative….”Turkey having the right to defend itself….quickly collapsing into Turkey having the right to defend the “Turk men”( in northern Syria) …. collapsing again into the bizarre certainty Russia is not attacking ISIS..collapsing once more into a “renewed” uncertainty where Turkey ends and Syria begins…collapsing again into Turkeys position on the Ukraine”…and somehow working its way into a psuedo justification for the murky act of terror sabotage that shut down the electrical grid in most of Crimea.


    It stands to reason , Post-Paris, the most telling and perhaps most pernicious narrative the “Times” will fight the hardest to control , is which” terror groups” constitute ISIS and which do not…

    but safe to say to all, with unabashed certainty , whichever “terror groups” they decide can be perceptually morphed or un-morphed into ISIS given the time , tide, and inclination it can never be….never ever….and forever never be…..

    ” The Five Dancing Israelis”.

    • Replies: @sean stark
  15. Fake Name says:

    What was Turkey’s ostensible motive? I cannot believe it was to draw the USA and Russia into a fight since 1) such a fight would be conducted on Turkish soil and reduce the country to smoking rubble, and 2) Turkey cannot possibly believe the totally unreliable USA would honor its NATO commitment to defend them against Russia.

    So if it was a planned shootdown, why did the Turks do it?

    • Replies: @Paul Craig Roberts
  16. @Fake Name

    A friend, George Abert, suggested a reason why the Turks shot down the Russian fighter-bomber over Syria. The Russians have a technology that they recently demonstrated against the newest US missile cruiser and Israel’s US jet fighters. The technology shuts down the communication systems of hostile forces, leaving them blind. He wonders if the Russian aircraft was shot down in order to encourage the Russians to use its unknown technology whenever Russian aircraft are in the vicinity of NATO and Israeli aircraft. He bets that the US has sent every Raven and ELINT specialist to the area in hopes that Russia’s use of the technology will allow them to learn enough about the system to duplicate it or learn how to block it.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @sean stark
  17. @Realist

    English is the international language of aviation.

    • Agree: tbraton
  18. Svigor says:

    Maybe the Turks just wanted to make the Russians back off their frontiers. Maybe they wanted to impair Russian efficiency by forcing them to send fighter escorts with every bomber. Maybe both. Maybe they wanted to show their ass to make the US stop taking them for granted. Etc.

  19. map says:

    The Su-24 has a stall speed of 243 mph?

  20. @WorkingClass

    ” . . . Is my piece of shit government afraid of me?”

    No, it’s not afraid of you–it just doesn’t give a good Goddamn for you. Hell, the U.S Government is owned by every big interest–Israel, military-industrial complex, Wall Street, et al.–with deep pockets.

    Joe Sixpack doesn’t matter.

  21. @attonn

    ” . . . This was an act of war. God bless Putin for having a cool head. I’d already nuked Istanbul.”

    If the Russian aircraft was in international airspace when the Turks pulled the trigger–well, that doesn’t look good. . . .

    I agree with you about Vlad Putin’s “cool head.” Looks like mature adults are in charge in Moscow (unlike the problem children in Washington, District of Corruption).

    Nuke a civilian city over something like this? Hell, no! Vlad would be justified in demanding an apology and compensation. If they aren’t forthcoming, he could hit a Turkish military target.

  22. Hbm says:

    Putin somehow made the mistake of trusting the West again; his ground attack aircraft were flying without fighter escort.

    I think it’s worth noting that we know about the “17 seconds” from the Turkish letter to the UN leaked almost immedeately by Wikileaks. We surely would have a very different official story about how long the Russian plane was in Turkish airspace if it weren’t for that.

    I also wonder about Lavrov claiming very early on that the plane was shot down by a surface to air missile, and about what reasons– other than being misinformed– he might have had to do so.

  23. Kiza says:
    @Paul Craig Roberts

    Dear Mr Roberts, I am an absolute and complete fan of yours.

    Please let me offer a few more thoughts about this thesis of your friend. What was most impressive about the Russian EMI (Electro-magnetic Impulse) jammer used on USS Donald Cook was that it was mounted on an ordinary, serially produced Russian jet. The West has similar military technology, but it is not even close in size and energy demands to be so portable. The Western EMI jammer could be mounted on a series of trailer trucks or on a ship, but never on an ordinary jet. You would then understand the difference in usability.

    The classical electronic jammers disable the enemies electronics temporarily, but the EMI jammer actually burns enemy’s electronics: I heard that Donald Cook sailors used oars to get to the nearest Romanian port, lol.

    The best known source of EMI are the nuclear explosions and there are tactical nuclear weapons which are optimized for EMI production.

    However, I would be skeptical about this being the main reason for the shoot-down. It is relatively clear that the shoot-down was a strategic US move on Russia, not a tactical one. I have written about the motives elsewhere, but some of the possibilities could be summed up as:
    1) By the Turks themselves, to revenge the destruction of so many oil tankers owned by Bilal Erdogan and the whole Erdogan family, smuggling ISIS oil from Iraq and Syria; the Russian bombardment is destroying expensive oil tankers owned by the family, not by ISIS, and driving the Erdogan family bankrupt.
    2) By the CIA, to sabotage Turkish Stream pipeline and the high value exchange between two countries (nuclear power plant project, Turkish exports to Russia etc).
    3) By the CIA, to get Russia to arm the Kurds, instead of doing this themselves (NATO members working against each other).
    4) By the CIA, to isolate Russia from Syria by forcing an aggressive Russian response and involving NATO; Turkey approaching NATO as if a Turkish jet was shot-down is indicative of this plan. A Turkish blockade of Dardanelles would isolate the Russian troops in Syria from Russia, force Russia to use the Baltic Route under control of NATO,
    and so on.

    In summary, the primary reasons are strategic reasons, not tactical.

    • Replies: @tbraton
  24. tbraton says:

    “1) By the Turks themselves, to revenge the destruction of so many oil tankers owned by Bilal Erdogan and the whole Erdogan family, smuggling ISIS oil from Iraq and Syria; the Russian bombardment is destroying expensive oil tankers owned by the family, not by ISIS, and driving the Erdogan family bankrupt.”

    Very good point. There had to be a reason why nearly a year and a half after declaring his intent to “degrade, destroy and defeat ISIS,” Obama had refrained from attacking the oil tankers carrying oil from ISIS facilities to Turkey, thus providing ISIS with the bulk of its revenue. The excuses given that the U.S. refrained because the drivers were innocent civilians or that it didn’t want to hurt the environment just didn’t hold up. After all, once the Russians started attacking the oil tankers, the U.S. suddenly pushed those great concerns aside and started attacking the oil tankers too. BTW, if anybody wants to read up on the Erdogen family’s connection to ISIS, here is something I found: Ironically, it appears that there is a very real connection between climate change and terrorism, just as Obama has asserted, but not quite in the way he intended.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  25. tbraton says:

    @Paul Craig Roberts

    Nice piece, Mr. Roberts. It’s a real shame that our MSM no longer bother to analyze the simple facts and present honest reporting. It’s amazing what simple little facts will tell you if you take the trouble to think about them.

  26. @Paul Craig Roberts

    There’s usually at least three reasons for every strategic chess move….that’s likely one. Nice call.
    Obviously, it was a bad move politically.
    Even Turks are outraged.

  27. @Kiza

    One dead officer, one dead rescue marine, two downed aircraft.
    Putin looks great. A patient, uncommonly competent leader yet dedicated to peace…and to winning in Syria and not starting a war with nato. The whole world is impressed, even his enemies.
    No eggs,..Kiza.”

  28. @alexander

    HaHaHa…sound judgement, five stars.

  29. Paul Craig Roberts’ explanation is pure donkey dung. He bases it on three “facts”, all of which are wrong.

    The allegation that NATO always lies while naively assuming Russia is always truthful is unsupported and uncalled for; it is a conclusion leading to his later convoluted ‘conclusion.’

    Roberts can’t master the most basic grammar-school math: the SU-24 —a plane that takes off and lands at 145 mph— was traveling from a minimum of 240 mph up to around 500 mph (590 mph by geomety disregarding the SU-24’s turning radius). He only pays attention to the 1.15 mile linear figure and completely disregards the 1.3 mile depth of the SU-24’s travel. Despite his later obfuscation, “stall speed” wasn’t involved. IMO he made a km/hr to mph conversion error and now won’t walk it back, but the fact remains that what he states as fact is absolutely wrong.

    Finally Roberts assumes (again!) the Turks could only begin the targeting authorization process only at the split second the Russian crossed the border; a fact not in evidence. To begin with, any command would have established authorization scenarios before the Russians (American, French, British, Syrian, etc) planes were flying; that’s part of the military responsibility. Then there’s the problem that the Russian plane had previously transited the area, flying an oval ‘racetrack’ pattern. [Russia’s explanation does not confirm or deny this, a tacit admission ] In any case, authorization may have been made long before the incursion that resulted in the shootdown; perhaps even days or weeks before.

    But allowing for Turkish lies (and we should) the plain fact is their radar —any radar— does not stop at the border, and the SU-24’s bearing would have been obvious long before the penetration of Turkish airspace. Far enough out the local officers would easily make the call if it wasn’t pre-approved and that was the procedure. Unlike the movies, these nations don’t have to call Washington and have a ‘conversation’ or a legal committee review before taking action. An on-site authorization would take 2-5 seconds: “Bad guys inside”, “Hit em but stay in”. Roberts’ assumption on any difficulty with authorization is hokem.

    IMO Turkey is pushing the envelope, putting nationals on the Syrian ground to screen against attacks. Perhaps even to grab a bit of unsecured territory. But that doesn’t change the fact that Robert’s is wrong, more wrong, and even more wrong.

    PS – There are dozens, maybe even a hundred, US airmen who died —and at least as many Soviets— ‘border pushing’ during the cold war period; insignificant airspace trespasses. Neither side acknowledges the incursion, and they are listed as malfunctions, pilot error, or simply training accidents.

  30. Kiza says:

    I would only be sceptical that even now the US attacks oil tankers. The amount of lying by the West is simply beyond comprehension of ordinary citizens. Best propaganda comes in stories, and dropping leaflets to warn drivers and then buzzing the trucks with low overflight is a really nice and touching storystory. It makes the good lie more believable.

    The second thing I read in the Western MSM is that Russia started copying US attacks on oil tankers. Almost as if they were copyrighted by the US and the Russian pirates were copying the US intellectual property.

    Therefore, there is something for everyone, you can chose your favorite story.

    Even if it did attack oil tankers, the US would have been careful not to attack Erdogan Co. oil tankers then someone else’s. Why piss off your best dogs?

    • Replies: @tbraton
  31. tbraton says:

    Your skepticism is certainly justified after the vast array of lies we have been told. I was merely repeating what we have been told by U.S. authorities. One of these days I may be proven right. I am also looking forward to winning the lottery one day.

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