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Thucydides Crap
Ceterum censeo Sinisem esse delendam
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I enjoy a simplistic historical analogy as much as the next blogger, but “Thucydides Trap” doesn’t cut it for me.

Thucydides Trap” is the “conflict inevitable between incumbent and rising empires” thing, tracing back to Thucydides’ analysis, the first example of the IR deep dive, which sidestepped the proximate cause of the Peloponnesian War (Athens was d*cking with Corinth!) and concluded that Sparta observed the rising power of Athens, got freaked out, and that’s how the fisticuffs started.

the_peloponnesian_war__431___404_bc__by_hms_endeavour-d5a56fn-1024x782

For Sparta, substitute “United States” and for Athens, slot in “China”. You get the picture.

“Trap” for me has the liability of sneaking in the passive voice for matters of human agency. “Nations” don’t get “trapped” into war. “People” “make” “war” based on perceptions of patriotic necessity or rational albeit amoral or immoral expectations of advantage.

Instead of a Greek tragedy of hubris and “inevitable war”, let’s go Roman and rat-f*cky, look at the Punic Wars, and Cato the Elder’s statement: “Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam , which translates as, “Ya know, I think we should eliminate Carthage.”

Cato the Elder tacked this catchphrase onto every speech he gave in the Senate, regardless of the topic, because he really wanted to see Carthage destroyed. Not because Carthage was an imperial threat to Rome. It was because Carthage, which had been flat on its behind after losing the first two Punic Wars, was finally starting to pull itself together and Cato abhorred the idea of dealing with Carthage as a peer interlocutor.

carthaginianempire

To characterize Carthage as an imminent threat (or opportunity), Cato on one occasion shook plump, fresh figs out of his toga onto the floor of the Senate, figs that came from Carthage, a mere three days away by sea.

ChinaCato Take it away, Wikipedia!

In 149 BC, in an attempt to draw Carthage into open conflict, Rome made a series of escalating demands, one being the surrender of three hundred children of the nobility as hostages, and finally ending with the near-impossible demand that the city be demolished and rebuilt away from the coast, deeper into Africa. When the Carthaginians refused this last demand, Rome declared the Third Punic War.”

The Third Punic War didn’t go any better for the Carthaginians than the first two; after a three-year siege, Carthage was conquered, sacked, razed, depopulated, and its earth reputedly sown with salt (that’s where that meme comes from) so nothing else could ever arise there.

This state of affairs—imperial aggrandizement expressed in opportunistic wars of choice—doesn’t sound particularly noble, which is maybe we hear more about Thucydides than Cato the Elder when looking for US-China analogies.

But I think that’s where we’re at. (I reproduce Cato’s declaration at the beginning of the post with a twist; see if you can spot it, classicists!)

Messing with the PRC is good politics, good geopolitics, and good (defense-related) business, not necessarily a matter of necessity. To a similar though, in my opinion, lesser extent, playing up an existential rivalry with the US is a handy tool for the CCP and PLA to keep their internal and regional adversaries in line.

None of the previous imperial competitions involved nuclear weapons; today rising and risen nuclear powers don’t regard the destruction of their competitors via war a viable option.

But that doesn’t mean we can’t have competition, limited war, and unlimited human tragedy by other means. That’s a direction that US hawks are energetically pushing China policy in anticipation of a Clinton presidency, judging by the announcement by both Democratic neo-libs and Republican neo-cons (which I must confess caught me by surprise) that liberal internationalism (the West) is locked in struggle with revisionist authoritarianism (you know who) for the future of the world.

From the classicist to modern ends of the spectrum, from Thucydides to Marx, this kind of dichotomy points to a preordained outcome:

This is the topic of my most recent piece at Asia Times: Eagle Has Landed: China Better Hunker Down for Next Decade.

There isn’t “a trap”. There’s a choice.

If we end up in a war with the PRC, it’s because we want it and they want it.

Something to be remembered and acknowledged.

(Republished from China Matters by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: History • Tags: China, Greece 
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  1. bob sykes says:

    Only one side has to want it. China can impose on us a war we don’t want (and can’t win).

    • Replies: @Quartermaster
  2. denk says:

    * Eagle Has Landed: China Better Hunker Down for Next Decade.*

    the vultures are gathering, the barbarians are at the gate.

    *If we end up in a war with the PRC, it’s because we want it and they want it.*

    If we end up in a war with the PRC, it’s because the cabal wants it, half of the murkkans enjoy it and the other half dont give a rat ass.

  3. Thought for the day: When the Chinese ‘invade’ they build islands, ports, and airstrips in open waters near their homeland. When the USA ‘invades’ it destroys cities and infrastructure and kills tens of thousands of people many thousands of miles away.

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  4. Ivan K. says: • Website

    That thing with the salt is a myth.

    I agree with the main point, and I wonder how the will for war with China squares with moving your businesses, your industry to China.

  5. This article seems a little too much like, what’s the phrase, utter nonsense.

    First off, Euros (that includes white Americans) invade, conquer, seize. That’s how we (used to) do. Chinese seep, manipulate, corrupt. That’s how they (still) do. Our way is more glorious. Their way is more successful.

    Second, it is the Chinese who have a saying (while we yammer on about human rights and friendly competition and community of nations): There cannot be a wolf and a tiger on the same mountain.

    Third, the combination of Confucian ancestor worship and Chinese obsession with “face” makes the Chinese thirst for total war unquenchable except by total war.

    Fourth, the Chinese will win unless we implement a major social policy change soon. Chinese social policy now favors child-bearing among the most financially successful Chinese, i.e., the highest IQ segment of the population. We pay our lowest IQ citizens to pop out another semi-retard every ten months. We are doomed unless:

    For every lovely on the dole,
    Mandatory birth control.

  6. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    UK and France avoided war after the fall of Napoleon. Yet both were rising powers.

    I don’t think it’s war that the US Glob really wants.

    US just wants to increase paranoia about Russia and China to keep its puppets on its side.

    If US policy is “Russia and China are okay”, then its satellites will grow closer to other major powers.

    But by making Russia and China out to be threats, US is saying to its whores, “You better remain my bitch.”

    But most important is the Jewish factor.

    China is Chinese ruled.
    Russia is Russian ruled.

    US is only 2% Jewish but Jewish-ruled.

    It is majority-elite nations vs minority-elite nation.

    Jews hate the idea of a great power ruled by majority-elites.

    So, Jews push homo-stuff all over, thus idealizing the concept of minority-elite supremacy.

    It’s not about ‘gay rights’ but ‘gay might-is-right’. With the backing of Jews, homos are fellow-rulers of the world, and Jews seek out homo-collaborators all over the world.

  7. Fear is a reaction: Courage is a choice.

  8. Max Payne says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Third, the combination of Confucian ancestor worship and Chinese obsession with “face” makes the Chinese thirst for total war unquenchable except by total war.

    Talk about nonsense.

    Having worked in the PRC as an expat for a few years I’ll tell you right now there is no such thing as Chinese “saving face”. My brother refused to stay in China for longer than 3 days because of the barbarity which the Chinese have yet to overcome.

    And it was a lot worse 10 years ago, people spitting on the floor in the elevators, mothers holding their children over public trash cans to defecate themselves, shameless beggars the likes of which would make beggars of India and other third world shit holes seem like civilized gentlemen.

    As for war between US and China…. come on…. be realistic…. war between China and the US will never happen.

    [MORE]

    Billionaires in the US are not going to bomb the factories that produce everything at maximum record profit, and billionaires in China are not going to bomb their customers. There is a REAL fetish in China to buy things from outside of China. If you go to a designer clothing store in China (1st tier city like Shanghai or Beijing) nothing is made in Vietnam, China, Korea, Indonesia. It all comes from Turkey, Romania, or some other Western state. Shit just last year I saw more BMWs and Mercedes in Shanghai than I did in any other Western city I’ve worked in.

  9. denk says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    u can improve on the murkkan gene pool by shooting yourself !

  10. denk says:
    @Max Payne

    recently a murkkan troll smugly declared,
    *luckily unitedsnake isnt like current day china* [sic]

    so i told him, * after three centuries the murkkans just managed to ‘progress’ to yuan dynasty [ghengis khan],
    god knows how long it’d take them to evolve into current day china, if ever. !
    hehehehe

    • Replies: @Craig Nelsen
  11. denk says:
    @Priss Factor

    to hell with the ‘joos’ .
    dont blame on the ‘neocons’ either !
    murkka is rotten from bottom up.
    just read the comments

  12. @Max Payne

    The Chinese are not obsessed with saving face? Well, maybe you are right, and everyone else in the world throughout history who have had any dealings with the Chinese and the Chinese themselves are wrong.

    • Replies: @dahoit
  13. @denk

    Except Ghengis Khan wasn’t even Chinese. Oops!

  14. Marcus says:

    Is China really a rising power or does it just look that way because the US’ decline has accelerated?

    • Replies: @dahoit
  15. Marcus says:
    @Max Payne

    Deng Xiaoping even used a spittoon when meeting with foreign dignitaries

  16. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Third, the combination of Confucian ancestor worship and Chinese obsession with “face” makes the Chinese thirst for total war unquenchable except by total war.

    I’m not sure I understand the connection between paganism and “face” and a “thirst for total war”. It seems to me that monotheisms and their secular descendents like liberal internationalism possess more of a will to total war. Furthermore, most Chinese wars have been relatively limited border conflicts or wars over dynastic succession, rather than total war.

  17. @Anonymous

    The Chinese (and by that I mean the ethnic Han) have, what, the fourth largest land mass and densely populated, at that. They didn’t appropriate it in a vacuum. They absorbed it. But they hadn’t met anything like us before (and by us I mean whites) we sailed up and inflicted a massive loss of face.

    The Chinese have defined themselves by “not the West” ever since. From their point of view, it is an untenable situation for the Middle Kingdom.

    The Chinese are radical communitarians (Confucius) and, because of their ancestor-worship (Confucius again), the communitarianism runs both horizontally (to extend throughout the Chinese diaspora) and vertically (throughout history).

    If an ABC (American-born Chinese) loses face in the United States today, all Chinese everywhere lose face.

    If the Chinese lost face in the Opium Wars, the Chinese born in Guangzhou in 1960 loses face to the British.

    I was in Beijing in 1997 during the handover of Hong Kong. It was celebrated in Beijing as a military victory, complete with military parades and weeks of televised gloating.

    Ever heard of the Burning of the Summer Palace?

    You will.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  18. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Yes, I’ve heard of the burning of the summer palace, and I’m familiar with Chinese history. Most of China’s extensive land mass at the frontier was established by the Manchu Qing Dynasty, not the Han. I’m also familiar with Confucianism, paganism, and communitarianism, and I’m not sure what any of those have to do with “total war”. China is obviously “not the West” by definition, so I’m not sure what you mean by them defining themselves that way, and why that is untenable. I also recall hearing about Beijing celebrating the return of Hong Kong. I fail to see why that is unusual or significant.

  19. denk says:

    to murkkans like max/marcus,

    i have more respect for an ‘uncouthed’ man who works for an honest living, than a murderer in gucci suit…. that means all 44 potus since 1875.
    u can bet the next one would be same, gauranteed.
    perhaps u’ve a different kind of ‘value’ over there in the land of the ‘free.’ ?
    hehehe

    as for neilsen,
    like i say, 44 war criminals potus since 1875, plus psychopaths the likes of rice, nulan, mccain….couldnt’ve rose outta a vaccum, there must be a ready supply of such gene pool from where they came.
    for evidence u dont’ve to look beyond the comments here.

  20. @Priss Factor

    France was the rising power of the 17th century and the top dog of the 18th. The profound social, political and military innovations of the revolution and Napoleonic eras gave them one last over the top hurrah to make a bid for hegemony that outstripped the dreams of Louis XIV by a wide margin.

    From 1815, France was a declining power. It was not especially obvious for the first generation or so as the concert system gave them a huge role, but:

    1. The dominant powers in Europe diplomatically and financially were Britain and Russia prior to the Crimean war, with Britain becoming the paymaster of liberal powers [often including France] and Russia the backer of the various Holy Alliance or holy alliance like systems in the centre and east. The Metternich system of Austria/Germany was underwritten by Russian power. Prussia in those years was arguably a Russian satellite state. These systems were not stable, but the relationships kept following this pattern until the diplomatic crisis of the 1850s saw Britain and France rally to Turkey’s side and beat Russia in battle, pushing Russia out of its top chair and largely out of diplomatic play for much of a generation.

    2. After that, Russia returned to a major place at first by its renewed alliance with Prussia/Germany, by then the new emerging power. At this time France’s decline had started to become obvious, had started driving its panicky and strategically defensive policies [this did not preclude provocations- they were not clever], and all of this became crystal clear in 1870-71. Later, when Russia allied with France against Germany, there was a case to be made that both Russia and France needed to ally against Germany, the rising power. There was also a case that Russia was a rising power itself [this was the German fear, and plausible]. France was the declining power that needed help to get revenge.

    3. France was able to build a much larger colonial empire than before. But there are two considerations. In part, this was a replacement for by then unfeasible European ambitions that France recognized it could not longer aspire to. It was also possible only because in doing so France was now operating largely within a British dominated international system and part of a colonialist race in which the British sanctioned other powers doing so but were very far ahead themselves. France clashed with them, negotiations were made, and overall the big picture went Britain’s way. In the 18th century, by contrast, France had been contending with Britain for supremacy from the Americas to the Mediterranean to India, and in Europe Britain was scrambling to pay allies to contain French power.

    The Napoleonic wars cost France hugely in money, resources and above all manpower, and started it down a road of demographic decline- France had hit 20 million in Louis XIV’s reign, and was well into the 18th century or more the most populous country in Europe. It outstripped even the population of the vast Russian empire until later than one might think [sucker was empty compared to today]. France’s population growth in the 19th century was much much weaker and incomparable to the huge population gains of Russia, Germany, or Britain. And, similarly, its industrialization was later, slower and more haphazard than Britain or Germany.

    France has been playing strategic and geopolitical defence, scrambling for allies to do it, for 200 years. They have not always done badly, of course. But their greatest success was WW1, and the means required ultimately ended up being an even bigger demographic and cultural own-goal.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  21. @Anonymous

    Well I know too little about the larger processes by which the Han people sinicized so much larger an area than their original Yellow river/northern plain homelands, but assume it to have been a complicated process of warring, colonization and cultural assimilation by which the south came to be so elementally Chinese, if still a cluster of regional cultures and much smaller minorities. That’s just iron-age imperial success in its most magnificent form.

    But Chinese military history from the warring states through most imperial dynasties offers many examples of war waged to the utmost of iron-age capabilities, with the aim of wholly eliminating rival states and their social systems [when not the same as the victor], large scale massacre, sacking, depopulation or removals, the works. And casualty levels to back it up. I gather the Yuan conquest of Sung [I am aware Mongols were not Chinese- I wouldn't want to claim the Han are the only ones capable of all this; but Yuan is a part of the recognized history of the Chinese state] teetered on the edge of being a genocidal war as a matter of policy, and certainly stacked up appropriate death tolls in practice. The more ancient Han war against the Xiongnu ultimately worked best when waged with large scale demographic goals in mind.

    None of which makes it total war by modern standards- they didn’t have the kit for that yet. But it was some of the best total war possible for a preindustrial civilization.

    On the other hand, that doesn’t mean they had a “thirst for total war”. That notion is ridiculous. They just had a long history of very advanced civilization and large populations available to kill or be killed at need using all the abilities of that civilization. Respect.

  22. @Anonymous

    Quite agree with all that. I would, though, appreciate the Chinese not whining indefinitely about that incident. The US doesn’t whine to Britain about the burning of the White House, nor am I aware of many other countries still complaining about that kind of behaviour after 200 years. Plenty of sackings and burnings in conflicts elsewhere in the early 19th century too. I appreciate China’s sense of its own longevity, but there need to be limits.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Ivan
    , @dearieme
  23. I’m not sure the Punic analogy holds.

    Taking the longer view, Carthage had been a peer competitor of Rome for over a century before it was destroyed, and at the start of their rivalry Carthage was the older, richer, larger, and more powerful big dog, which had organized the western Mediterranean basin largely to its advantage and had many of the Greek colonies as allies, and Rome the rising upstart power that had just secured its own hinterland in Italy.

    Their clash in the first war was one between rough equals over a divided sphere of influence, in which Rome was the newcomer feeling its oats. That would make Sicily and its surrounding waters the equivalent of the South China Sea, with Rome as China.

    In the second war, Rome had beaten Carthage and reduced it to strategically weaker position but it was still powerful, rich, commanded fleet and army, and had gained a new empire in Spain, making it still an equal contest in sufficient ways.

    In the third war taken in isolation, your analogy is better but there is the opposite problem- Carthage was much weaker than Rome by then and if Rome is to be cast as the US, then Carthage better fits Japan circa 1985 than China now. Perhaps more seriously, I would suggest that any analogy should not take the third war in isolation but needs to take the whole competition between Rome and Carthage into account as I suggest above. Rome was not an old power crushing a rising rival, but the risen power finishing off the former leader of the regional interstate system.

    That would suggest an analogy to what China [Rome] does to the US [Carthage] a century or so from now, presuming China does continue to rise, does aspire to be the leader of the world system, and there is still a US in 2116 [all debatable propositions, especially the degree to which China would even want to take on the role of the US at all or have any desire to eliminate its statehood and culture let alone peoples- as nuisances perhaps, but I don't get the impression of them as genocidal global imperialists. They just want to rule Italy, control its surrounding waters, and dictate the management of neighbouring states, so to speak].

    • Replies: @animalogic
    , @ChrisD
  24. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @random observer

    That’s in part due to the fact that it’s a part of the founding narrative and mythology of the modern Chinese nation and state, precipitating the decline of the last imperial dynasty and the establishment of the first modern Chinese nation-state. Whereas US elites have gradually supplanted America’s traditional founding narrative based on fighting British tyranny with a post-national one based on immigration and contemporary liberalism.

  25. While not an exact translation, the sense of Cato’s original Latin is more along the lines of this:

    “Now, as far as the rest of this stuff is concerned, it is my opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.”

    This is as much to say, “We are never going to come to a conclusive resolution of the issues we are discussing here as long as Carthage remains a rival.” This expansive sense of the famous quote explains why Cato was able to end every speech with it and not sound slightly daffy. It was not some idiotic mantra; it was a rather rational, albeit somewhat grease-ballish point. There is no similar rivalry between the US and China.

  26. Ivan says:
    @random observer

    They haven’t stopped whining over the Opium “Wars” either. When I first came across it in Thomas Pynchon’s Gravity’s Rainbow, I thought I would never see a more perfect example of British perfidy. Imagine my surprise, when I found out that opium was legally obtainable in China, from the Silk Road region and was subject to taxation as every luxury was, and had been so since the late 18th century. By the time the British, as usually happens when the Protestant Christian conscience is awakened – “Opium is keeping China from Christ” – finally put a stop this unseemly trade at the end of the 19th century, opium was wholly supplied from within China by Chinese entrepreneurs themselves. But you don’t see the Chinese making a song and dance about this internal trade which had in course of time grown manifold.

    • Replies: @dahoit
    , @animalogic
  27. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    USA likened to Sparta? Really? You joke, right? Americans fool themselves and try to fool anybody else, assuming that the world is full with mere idiots, of even worse standing than them. USA has been great in many, and still is in some, albeit increasingly fewer domains. But military prowess of prime quality had never been part of the precedents, no matter how much Americans would like to think otherwise. What is USA, seen from outside world: a bunch of salesmen pretending to be warriors, and even more believing in their own delusion with a jumbo size arrogance. Any nation/state/power which pretends to be truly martial has to prove itself before asserting any such kind of allegation. And yet we still wait to contemplate something akin to a second Punic War (or Eastern front during WW2). A simple skirmish such as Alamo (or name any other small battles Americans like so much to recite as icons; Little Big Horn; San Jacinto, Hamburger Hill, name it); of which any (and I mean it, any) Eurasian power had undergone thousands times over during its history and would not even dare to boast about for simple fact it would be ridiculed; can’t constitute a comparable feat. An eagle (even bald) taken as symbol does not make any power, the copy-cat of Rome; which was by the way magnificent during its own Republican era and awful as an empire. In fact, taking all data into account, (and of course provided to be logic and objective) USA is much closer to Carthage in almost every aspect, yet Yankees are not willing (naturally) to acknowledge the truth. Woe to vanquished, isn’t it?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  28. @Max Payne

    Good comment. I agree that the idea that Chinese thirst for total war is baloney. The Chinese I’ve dealt with are much too practical for that for one thing.

    Whoever made the claim should offer some evidence to support it. Good luck to them!

  29. Rehmat says:

    I’m sorry Peter Lee by quoting Israeli propaganda source Wikipedia you totally ruined your credibility.

    Last year, Greek foreign minister Nikos Kotzias delivered a speech at the University of Tehran in which he called the Islamic Republic and China the new emerging powers.

    “We live in ever-changing world extending from the Atlantic to Pacific Ocean. The shift of power is happening from the West to the East to a degree today, new powers and countries with long histories like Iran and China are emerging in the world,” Kotzias said.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/30/greek-fm-iran-and-china-are-new-emerging-powers/

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  30. neutral says:

    Things would have been different had Carthage and Rome both had nuclear weapons. The same applies to the USA and China, Americans are ultimately cowards and they will not go to war with China, they will pick on other targets instead.

  31. Dr. X says:

    There isn’t going to be any “war with China.” What — are all the hippies with “Free Tibet” bumper stickers going to get a haircut and join the Marine Corps and invade nuclear-armed China, with 1.5 billion people?

    If there’s going to be any “war” at all, it’ll be some kind of light naval skirmish prompted by the stupidity, arrogance, and fecklessness of idiots like Obama and his little college-girl twats like Nuland, Harf, Psaki — and of course Hitlery.

    These are the people who insisted on bear-baiting Russia 25 years after the Cold War ended. And that idiotic “reset button” thing in which Lavrov laughed at Clinton right to her face. Then they announced — announced, mind you like a move in some kind of a board game — an “Asia pivot.”

    What in the hell kind of stupidity is that? “Hi, Asians, now we’re going to “pivot” to confront you?” Good God… there won’t be any war because the Chinese and the Russians are too busy laughing at the stupid American girls who read a book in college, so they think they know how to run the world.

    How many Monica Lewinsky jokes do you think the Chinese and Russians will be telling each other in their capitols when President Hillary comes for an official state visit?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  32. Tom Welsh says:

    “If we end up in a war with the PRC, it’s because we want it and they want it”.

    Sounds nice, but it’s not true. All it takes to start a war is ONE side that is determined to fight. If the other side doesn’t want to fight, they simply lose.

    The history of the world since 1945 could be seen as the story of the USA forcing wars on countries that didn’t want to fight.

    • Agree: animalogic
    • Replies: @denk
  33. pyrrhus says:
    @Max Payne

    From a purely military standpoint, I don’t see how the US could attack China or Russia conventionally with any hope of success, or public support, while a nuclear attack would mean the end of the world…

    • Replies: @annamaria
  34. joe webb says:

    Historical analogues are dicey. But….Think about Marathon and Persian Empire’s threat to Greece. Greece woke up, in large part due to Themistocles. Athens then built a fleet, which they dd not have at the time.

    The rest is Western History as opposed to Oriental Despotism, which now threatens us again.

    China is an oriental despotism with an emperor and yes men. always will be so cuz always has been. Chinkdom.

    What to do? Isolate and keep the ICBMs on Red Alert. No more trade, no more globalism, etc. Ally with White Europe.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Anonymous
  35. denk says:
    @joe webb

    if u and craig nelsen pass for ‘high iq murkkans’ then china has nothing to worry about.

    otoh, knowing that morons like these are squatting on the largest pile of nukes in the world send a cold down my spine !

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/10/18/its-no-longer-god-bless-the-usa-its-god-help-the-usa/

    • Replies: @joe webb
  36. @bob sykes

    Depends on what you mean by win. The US has the ability to remove every Chinese ship from the surface of the oceans. Without trade, China collapses. The PLA Navy would go fairly quickly as well. We don’t have to put one pair of boots ashore in Asia to utterly humiliate them.

  37. joe webb says:
    @denk

    denkie…very well reasoned. jw

  38. dahoit says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Sinophobic nonsense.The Chinese are civilized,and work at human connections,while we kill them.
    We are doomed if we continue on the Zionist global prison slave campaign.

    • Replies: @joe webb
    , @Wizard of Oz
  39. dahoit says:
    @Quartermaster

    The Chinese ships carry goods America needs,as we’ve committed suicide for Zionist profit.
    Sounds self defeating.:)

    • Replies: @denk
  40. dahoit says:
    @Ivan

    The British opium trade was designed to keep the Chinese in a permanent nod.
    You don’t think that is terrible,an outside force keeping the Chinese in addiction for their trade?Yeah,Opium was commonplace in China,but not used as imperialist design.
    Typical greedy scum European criminals.

  41. dahoit says:
    @Craig Nelsen

    Isn’t it America trying to save face by denying neocon disaster in the ME by doubling down?
    No time for losers because we are the chumpions of the world..

  42. dahoit says:
    @Marcus

    About a month ago in the Graun they had a pictorial about China and the Pearl River Delta.
    The most amazing transformation in the shortest time in world history,and just an inkling(As our neolibcons can’t let US see Chinese advancement,it diminishes US completely)of the miracle of modern China and CapCom.

  43. denk says:
    @dahoit

    qm and nelsen both enjoy ‘humiliating’ people , bloody sadists
    these two.

    good post and…..good nite. !

  44. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @joe webb

    That analogy makes more sense with the US as the Persian Empire. The Persian Empire meddling in western Asia Minor and the Aegean is analogous to America’s meddling in the western Pacific and the China Seas.

  45. annamaria says:
    @Anonymous

    true.
    And this is what is substituted for statesmanship in Congress today:
    A plumb fledging of Bush the Lesser is talking about the defense of fatherland: http://burgess.house.gov/news/documentsingle.aspx?Documentid=398103power-
    These power-lustful warmongers have been pumping trillions of the US taxpayers money into the wars of aggression in the Middle East and now they are alarmed like small children (that played with fire without adults supervision) that the “system is blinking red”

  46. annamaria says:
    @pyrrhus

    “…I don’t see how the US could attack China or Russia conventionally with any hope of success…”

    Two points:
    1. The belligerents speeches are primarily designed to extract more taxpayers’ money for MIC.
    2. The incessant poking of the bear and dragon has been creating a climate of mistrust that could eventually lead to a hot war, whether the US want this hot war or not. The responsibility for the approaching disaster belongs totally to persons of ‘easy virtue’ in the US Congress – as well as to the puppeteers that are so detached from the real world that they are not able to comprehend a situation when NONE and NOTHING will be able to salvage the planet and save humankind. The psychopaths are fantastically effective in making their lives nice, but the human society is not able to survive without following the voice of altruists. Unfortunately, the existing power system favors psychopaths.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  47. @Jus' Sayin'...

    Mongolia? Tibet? East Turkestan (“Xinjiang”)?

    Both the US and Chinese governments are lying, murdering brutes.

    • Replies: @denk
  48. dearieme says:
    @random observer

    Burning the White House was entirely understandable retaliation for the Americans burning York, as Toronto was then called.

  49. dearieme says:
    @dahoit

    You are being hysterical. Opium was legal in Britain.

  50. Philip Owen [AKA "Soarintothesky"] says:
    @Priss Factor

    Most working class Russians are convinced Russia is ruled by Jews. Putin is their only defender.

  51. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Whatever China does, it should forget about ‘super-culturalism’.

    What is it?

    Watch this video:

    The crazy German bitch says Germany must take in all these darkies to turn Germany into a ‘super-cultural’ state. Super-cultural? What in the hell is that?

    Sweden talks of becoming a Moral Superpower.

    Germany talks of becoming a ‘Supercultural nation.

    Is repressed Swedish Viking aggression seeking outlet through Moral Crusade(though this is more about having the world invade Sweden than vice versa.)

    Is repressed German chauvinism finding an outlet through this idea of Super-Culturalism or Uber-Culturalism? If they can’t invade other nations and build the city of Germania, maybe they can build a Super-Cultural Germany that is a World unto itself.

    Now, just what is a ‘super-cultural state?

    Does diversity lead to super-culturalism? Didn’t USSR try that already? What happened to USSR?
    How did diversity work out for Yugoslavia?
    And how come diverse nations in Latin America, North Africa, and Central Asia are no great shakes?

    I would hardly call them super-anything.

    When Germany was homogeneous, it produced Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Goethe, Brahms, Wagner, Nietzsche, and etc. Those were superb cultural figures.

    What did Peru or Venezuela produce with their supercultural diversity?

  52. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    {U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad}

    Fifty one U.S. diplomats think America should launch military strikes against the Syrian government.

    Can you believe this statement BY American CRIMINALS AND BABY KILLERS WHO HAVE KILLED MILLIONS OF MUSLIMS for geopolitical gain and ‘Greater Israel’, where intends to partition Iraq, Syria and other countries to control the region. Can you believe these criminals are changing the map using FALSE FLAG OPERATION, began by 9/11, designed and implemented by the USG/Israel , to use as pretext to invade Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria, Pakistan, killing millions of Muslims, including thousands of scientists.
    How all these crimes against humanity can take place with no serious objection from the population? The education system of the US breeds ignorant ‘citizen’ who are complicit in USG’s crimes against humanity.

    Now, it is obvious that Orlando terror LIKE 9/11, was A FALSE FLAG terror, to prepare the dumb population to accept yet another war crime against humanity. This time Syria is a target. How stupid one can get to go with bunch of lunatics.
    What are Russia and China going to do? Are these countries going to cooperate with these criminals again? Russia and China are responsible for fall of Libya because they agreed UN be used to attack Libya like in the past for some petty concessions. But I warn you china and Russia, you will be attack and no one will shed a drop of tear if YOU CONTINUE with the status quo.
    China always goes with her PETTY INTEREST, and Russia is not doing much. The main factor in defeating ISIS is Hezbollah fighters, Iran and to some extend air strike by Russian, but China has done sh*t.
    People of the world are fed up with China and Russia and demanding to do more to destroy these criminals as soon as possible to save the planet. At least, these two countries must speed up the CULTUREAL WAR, some angry and disappointed people are saying.

    THE WORLD IS FED UP AND IS NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE. BOMB THESE BASTARDS IF THEY DARE TO BOMB SYRIA. Another Libya should NOT happend. The American war criminals HAVE KILLED more than 500 MILLIONS of world population SO FAR. When this arrogant racist population is going to stop?

    FED UP, FED UP, FED UP.

    Russia and China should bomb these criminals if they dare to bomb Syria. US must f*ck off from the middle east NOW. What are these criminals doing there except killing the population on a daily basis?

    Andre Vltchek writes:

    {Alternatives are not discussed in the mainstream, anymore. The search for a better world, for more humanistic concepts, is almost totally abandoned; at least in the West and in its colonies and ‘client” states.
    It as if this horrid nightmare, into which the world had been forced into by the global Western dictatorship, is the only imaginable future for our human race.
    It is not. And there are two great countries on this planet, Russia and China, which can offer many alternatives. They are strong enough to withstand all the pressure from the West. They have hearts, brains; they have the know-how and resources to offer alternatives and to re-start millennia old, essential discussions about the future of our humanity.}

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/russia-and-china-have-to-step-up-the-ideological-war-against-imperialism/5530788

    • Replies: @denk
    , @Wizard of Oz
  53. Ivan says:
    @dahoit

    The British could have a monopoly only if

    a) They could seal off the Chinese borders.
    b) Ensure that opium was not grown in China.

    Both of which conditions were not met. The Chinese were addicted for their own reasons. The British were addicted to tea; does anyone condemn the British for their tea-drinking? They had opium addicts of their own. De Quincey the famous authour for one. In those days and for a long time after into the fifties, opium was legally obtainable in the form of an ingredient in over-the-counter medicines. My advice is to look for another example of British imperialistic avarice. Turning a barren rock like Hong Kong into a competitor to Shanghai for instance.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @denk
  54. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Ivan

    The Chinese government tried to end the opium trade, which is what precipitated the Opium Wars. The issue was sovereignty as well as the social ills of large scale opium addiction. The British opium trade trafficked in opium grown in India into China and increased the supply of opium, and the British went to war in order to continue the trade when the Chinese government tried to stop it.

  55. denk says:
    @RadicalCenter

    wow, its morons galore here !

    the ‘wasting of fallujah‘ is now into ‘iteration four’ already.
    to think that max payne has the gall to call chinese ‘barbarians,’
    hehehehe

  56. denk says:
    @Ivan

    the chinese wanted to rid themselves of the opium plague.
    the qing court burned tons of opium, sent a letter to the queen to stop its opium trade.
    the queen replied with gun boats up the yangze.
    so its the chinese own fault ?

    i heard your dad loved ussr so much he gave u a soviet name innit ?
    he must be turning in his grave to see u becoming a fukus apologist. !
    hehehehe

  57. denk says:
    @Anonymous

    barking up the wrong tree aint u ?
    china is under siege by the new ‘sixteen nations alliance‘, its bracing for another round of murkkan
    provocations. check the redneck qm’s post.
    who should china appeal for help ?

    the only way is a rev in the homeland of the ‘free’,
    but dont hold your breath if the likes of qm, nelsen, jw, max payne here are any indication .

    p.s.
    do i know u in moa per chance ?

  58. denk says:
    @Tom Welsh

    ‘If we end up in a war with the PRC, it’s because we want it and they want it‘ [sic]

    the author has this knack of springing some ‘nasty surprises’
    from time to time.
    i called him out in the first post.

  59. joe webb says:
    @dahoit

    chinks as civilized is only true in chink context of what civilization means. Chinks do work at human connections as they are very social, very collectivistic, very much group oriented.

    They travel in packs, like other collectivists…negroes, and mexers, etc. Whites are about Principles while chinks are about social ties. I am an acquaintance of a Chinese female MD, very ‘assimilated’ to US culture. She never talks about anything but social stuff. Politics and other subjects which are based on Principle, she does not get.

    Chinks have no Principle, it is all personal, social, family, and finally personal power which then leads naturally to despotism. Democracy,Free Speech and relative democracy in social life they don’t get at all. Bow down to Authority, keep your mouth shut. I once had a chink doc and we got into some argument about something….finally he said, I just do what I am told. Chinkdom in a few words.

    You never see a chink off by himself Thinking and getting away from other people. It is not in them. This is another way of saying that all they have is Sensation, like all collectivists, and dumber Whites as well. Social relations are sensation all the time. Principle flys out the window with the extreme subjectivity of this kind of Being. Of course, they can study technical subjects, etc. and are slightly smarter than Whites, but they flunk the genuine Humanity test of inter-subjectivity, the I-Thou relationship, the thinking AND feeling dialectic in human social intercourse. All orientals are like that. Gossip, games, shopping , sex, …that is it, somewhat like dumb whites who have no real sense of a separate and responsible self.

    No principles, just haggling, Fairness? ha ha. Lie , cheat , and steal around Silicon Valley…I get reports from folks who work around and with them…tech stuff.

    J Communism was a great fit for them, still is, along with mad-dog capitalism…to get rich is glorious…one of the latter day Maoist slogans. You can bet that near 100% of the money rich chinks toss around here is very dirty . Slave labor, cheating, lying, etc.
    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  60. @Quartermaster

    Rubbish. Chinese trade, even before it opens up the Silk Road, doesn’t depend on Chinese ships.

  61. @random observer

    The Rome / Carthage analogy to the US /China is indeed open to question.
    It breaks down immediately when you consider that Carthage and Rome had fought wars of near annihilation. It’s hard to over estimate the fear Roman’s felt in the years after the second Punic war. In retrospect we may disagree, but Romans’ genuinely felt they had come within a hair’s width of effective destruction by Hannibal.
    The US and China have no such fraught history.
    Whether China or the US is rising or falling is secondary to the simple fact that the US admits NO equals. The US admits only subservience (Israel is the exception to the rule). US–China conflict is largely in the hands of the US: China has no need for war, it’s plans are economic and diplomatic (in the medium term). Of course, if the US wants to shove conflict down China’s throat, China will probably have to respond accordingly. God help us.

  62. @Ivan

    Yes, imagine Chinese capitalists exploiting the massive opium market in large part created by Britain. Imagine ! Of course, what’s good for the goose…and all that….

  63. @annamaria

    You are quite right
    AnnaMarina. Loved your “easy virtue” characterisation of Congress …

  64. @dahoit

    Rubbish. The opium trade was a commercial operation. You might as well say the American government pushed railroads across America to allow control of the Amerindians. What comics do you rely on for your historical factoids?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Johann Ricke
  65. @random observer

    A useful contribution. Thank you. I would be interested in the detail of how and why France’s population growth slowed so much after 1800 compared to the UK for over 80 years and Germany till 1914. It wasn’t emigration unlike Ireland after 1845. Was it like the stasis in England from 1600 to about 1650 – whatever caused that?

    • Replies: @5371
    , @helena
  66. @Rehmat

    How naive cam you be? (It’s some of the kids in Islamabad’s turn again is it?).

    The Greek foreign minister must have been wanting a loan from Iran’s newly released funds, or maybe an honorary doctorate. Iran doesn’t even have the Sunni states’ soaring populations.

  67. @Dr. X

    I like your penultimate pivot paragraph: good point.

  68. @dahoit

    When did the Chinese become “civilised” as you put it? And which Chinese? Are you somehow imagining a Chinese government free from the populist eruptions that flare up in democracies?

  69. @Anonymous

    I don’t know why I bothered reading that illiterate almost crazed rant but it does suggest a question, namely, how do you get that 500 million figure?

  70. 5371 says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    [why France’s population growth slowed so much after 1800]

    Coitus interruptus.

    [stasis in England from 1600 to about 1650]

    It was 1640 to 1740, more or less. England had filled up, relatively speaking, and people reacted, as they had done in tougher times for three centuries, by delaying marriage.

  71. helena says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “stasis in England from 1600 to about 1650 – whatever caused that?”

    PRT

  72. joe webb says:

    more Reason and Principle

    w: NYTimes.com: Britain Asks if Tone of ‘Brexit’ Campaign Made Violence Inevitable ( Who sounded the first ‘tone’ ? )

    To: Joe Webb
    Sent: Saturday, June 18, 2016 8:50 AM
    Subject: Fw: NYTimes.com: Britain Asks if Tone of ‘Brexit’ Campaign Made Violence Inevitable ( Who sounded the first ‘tone’ ? )

    [MORE]

    ““What we are just seeing generally is a very disturbing shift in British politics,” said Simon Tilford, the deputy director of the Center for European Reform, which favors British membership. “It is quite upsetting to me what is happening.”

    The ‘tone’ of the nursery song was first sounded well over a half-century ago. It is the johnny-one-note of We Are All Equal. Pick a castrato high register tone, the song of children about 7 years old. Daaaaaaaaaa, sort of like Ommmmmmmm, the Eastern Dopiness tone of It’s All Gooddddddd, like the current cliche of dopy new age and other white dopes.

    Then add the abrasive baritone of the guy who just assassinated the English pol singing lullabies to the migrants:
    Suspect in British Lawmaker’s Killing: ‘My Name Is Death to Traitors’

    Suspect in British Lawmaker’s Killing: ‘My Name Is Death to Traitors’
    By Kimiko De Freytas-Tamura
    Thomas Mair, 52, who has been charged with murdering Jo Cox, a member of Parliament, made the remark during a br…

    He may be a mental health case, but those are the kinds of people who first react to substantial threats to their sense of familiarity and relative well-being. Death to Traitors is a pretty good moniker. What are traitors anyway?

    A traitor in the most obvious sense is a betrayer of one’s country. What is a country? Merely the accumulated truths/conventions of thousands of years of practical experience in an environment of a single race of people. This is so obvious that you have to be a nut-case not to see it. Various countries/races have had Diverse experiences due to differences in just about everything in Environments. These differences over the long haul, select or de-select genes. One environment favors x genes, and another environment discourages such genes. This does not take place over a few hundred years, but over thousands and tens of thousands of years, like the global North’s cold climate making brain demands on folks, while life in the global South, has not made such demands. Hence, general stupidity and violent tendencies in the Global South.

    The “culture” of one’s country is relatively unique. Hence Difference and genuine Diversity. The children of Paradise, only to be seen in the West, Think that they can alter tens of thousands of years’ forming of character in a particular people or race. They Think they can do this because the Think. Man Thinks, God (Nature) Laughs

    When the evidence nowadays of complete Failure not only of the Darkies, both in their own historic environments buit also when thrown into the Our White Environments, the Children of Paradise find it very ‘upsetting’ per above, and ‘disturbing.” Children throwing tantrums comes to mind. Throw in the Pride of Liberals (think Eating of the apple from the Tree of Knowledge, and Apple’s logo of the apple with a bite out of it….Pride of Clickers.)

    It it ain’t broke , don’t fix it, also comes to mind. Of course, it is not only screwball Thinking, restricted to Whites cuz of our excessive Altruism Quotient, and pampering in childhood, where everyone gets a trophy for just showing up which gives us a large dose of Entitlement feelings, it is also international capitalism whose structural requirements include “don’t use the word nigger, it’s bad for business. Expanded money opportunities are only for the smarter folks who have gone to college, and learned the catechisms of Liberalism. Ordinary folks snigger at the “Intellectuals” who have dreamed up Equality. Ordinary folks have adjusted to reality, they know they are not College Material and thus are spared the Opportunism of business and professional hustlers. And of crazy Thinking.

    This gets me to why such a loser as Equality, and especially Racial Equality is attractive to many folks. What is also going on is a refusal to SEE differences, connect the dots, and start reasoning one’s way to First Principles. Principle generally means an idea and formulation that makes sense of the facts. Secondly, it has the ethical aspect of honor for standing up for Right and resisting Wrong.

    Equality banishes Thought. Hence we are in the Age of Whatever. What’s the difference between apathy and ignorance? I don’t know,…I don’t care.

    Parsing out Reality is hard work, particularly when living in a soft totalitarianism like today’s Liberalism, where the Lies are Everywhere. Man is a social animal, which means we want to get into the herd and not be tossed out and maybe trampled to boot.

    All non-Whites fly to the herd and never Think about Principle, both aspects. Only Whites have developed this ability to Reason and establish principles, like free speech, etc.
    The Coloreds are just a collectivistic herd. This is especially true of chinks. There has never been Liberty among the Chinks, or any other People of Color. They cannot Think like Whites, it is not in them. They are just herd animals.

    Joe Webb

    Britain Asks if Tone of ‘Brexit’ Campaign Made Violence Inevitable
    BY STEVEN ERLANGER

    The killing of Jo Cox, a politician in favor of remaining in the European Union, has put a focus on the anti-immigrant tactics some in the “Leave” campaign have employed.
    .

  73. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    It wasn’t purely commercial. Geopolitics was involved at the outset, with the British government concerned about its trade deficit and seeing the opium trade as an avenue to both get more out of India and to reverse its deficit. And it continued to be geopolitical when the British government went to war following the Chinese government’s attempts to end the trade.

  74. It has always been that the greatest danger to the US is Peace which must be destroyed at all costs.

  75. Seraphim says:
    @dahoit

    The Opium wars were not so much about consumption of opium as such, but about the hemorrhage of silver from Britain to China to pay for the tea, to which the Brits became addicted, and for the porcelain (China!) they were drinking it from. As the Chinese did not import anything from England, Brits had to pay with silver.

  76. denk says:

    jw, wz and their cohorts…

    while your military goons are raining bombs , drones on women, children on a daily basis,
    you and your ilks are commiting murder in broad daylight here…of the english language !

    when cheerleaders of the *murder inc* yammer on about ‘principle’, ‘civilised’, ‘human rights’ blah blah blah,
    they’re rendering such phrases totally meaningless.

    take craig nelsen’s rant for example, every word is an inversion of reality.
    ‘those chinese confusianists [sic] want total war with the biggest and meanest mofo on earth’
    well he just passed the psychopath test !
    *def of a psychopath, one who can look u straight in the eyes while mouthing utter nonsense*

    nelsen complained that ‘while we yammer on human rights, rule of law…the ‘amoral’ chicoms cornered all the markets.
    ‘yammer” is the word, the only true word in his rant, except he forgot to add…
    ‘while we yammer on human rights, rules of law AND BOMBING WEDDING PARTIES, FUNNERAL
    PROCESS, EXECUTING ‘DOUBLE TAPPING’ TO MAKE SURE THERE ARE NO SURVIVERS AT THE SAME TIME’ !

    45 psychopaths as potus [including the next one, u can bet on it] cant be a bug, its a feature !
    cuz there’s a ready supply at home !

    murkka has been at war 93% of time since birth, .
    how did it manage such a ‘magnificent’ feat ?
    forget about the joos, the neocons, u cant go on like this without a solid support at home,
    my guess is 93% at least !
    its the murkkan psyche at work.
    its all about ‘humiliating’ peoples to ‘show them who’s the boss around here.’
    [that ‘humiliating’ word were used many times in this thread alone

    not convinced ?
    why is it that during every election campaign candidates all try to outdo the others in ‘talking macho’ on foreign policy, proposing to ‘get tough on some countries’, promising to ‘teach someone a lesson’ ?
    cuz such rheotorics pull in votes, even the msm pundits say it.
    promising to ‘bludgeon someone’ get you plenty of votes in murkka !
    enuff said.

  77. joe webb says:

    I had an engaging conversation with a half -Chinese, half White middle aged guy a few days ago.

    He listened to my argument about how Chinese (and the rest of the world except the white world) are collectivistic, very social, have never invented liberty, cannot think about Principle, and are especially greedy, the Chinese that is. And yes, he agreed that only Whites are individualistic. He also despises immigration , especially Chinese immigration…talks about all their welfare rip-offs, and he is going to vote for Trump.

    He agreed with my entire argument….and related his experiences with chinese family members who are trying to cheat him out of money left by his Dad,and so on. He calls these off-the-boat chinese…”communists.” Funny.

    He was also very curious about the Jews….and wanted me to explain it to him . I did. ahhhh-soh.

    He understood the argument about collectivistic herd behavior vs. individualist behavior that includes assertion of Principle. There are no principles for Chinese, he said, It is all just gregariousness and wheel and dealing. They don’t care about freedom , rights, etc. It is all family stuff, and politics is just smash and grab.

    This was all his stuff, not mine. The white man in the woodpile got him some redeeming genes. Reminds me of a Berkeley liberal White female a year or two ago who joined a chat when she heard me talking about HBD, socio-biology, etc. She said she had taken some classes at Berkeley on this stuff. Wanted to know what I thought about the Chinese. I said that the Silicon Valley liberals that I occasionally talk to pretty much say the same thing …they lie, cheat, and steal. She then exclaimed…they are rapacious! her word. Growing up in Berzerkeley, working in a ‘service organization’ with all the silly white people….and starting to figure it out. She left the conversation saying it was all “. bringing her down….”

    The Truth will set you Free but first it will bring you down, or make you angry.

    My father’s day spent with my two year old granddaughter…ball of blonde, blue eyed fire. Also did not start to walk until 13th months plus a week or so. means she will be pretty smart probably. Spectacular, and beautiful of course. Gerber baby. Bragging Rights of course. White is Beautiful.

    Whites are the most beautiful race on the planet and the shit people want to kill us. Look at Venezuela…Brownness demanding more Free Money.

    Joe Webb

  78. joe webb says:

    I would add , about the truth making you free, that it is very true for yours truly. I spent years if not decades trying it figure it out from a basically leftish view of things (family script, then the Vietnam Days, and Negro Insurrection. I did not know any Negroes….and naturally figured that they were just like me and you other Whites. Nope.)

    Since I have received the blessings of Darwin, Evolution, Global South vs. Global North, IQ race difference, and temperament race difference, and generally all hunky-dory science of a biological nature…it is almost all genetics…Identical twin studies, etc…Plus…

    Figuring It All Out…I have been set Free. free at last. And I feel ripe. Scoff and resent and call me names if you want, all you resenters out there, but this is the way it is for yours truly. Also, it does not hurt that I still attract 20 year olds…females of the Whiteness type, plus assorted Others, like chink women…they have no loyalty to their race, and are totally opportunistic.

    In that regard I have asked a couple Chinese gals why you see so many Chinese (around here) gals with Whtie guys. Two different incidents..two exactly the same responses.: The White guys treat you better, for the chinese men it is all just business.

    Oh yeah, and per the Unz article a while back, Whites also invented kissing…the discovery of profound inter-subjectivity; other races now do it, but their hearts are elsewhere…near the genitals, or on business, or politics… Whites also invented the
    Private as opposed to the Public. For the collectivists, it is all the same, to put it simply, Equal.
    Take the Left..please…and their totalitarian claim that the Personal is Political…lots of murder in that formulation.
    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @denk
  79. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @joe webb

    Also, it does not hurt that I still attract 20 year olds…females of the Whiteness type, plus assorted Others, like chink women…they have no loyalty to their race, and are totally opportunistic.

    You said you’re 75 years old. Are you sure all these 20 year old girls are attracted to you rather than just being polite and friendly to an older gentleman who’s old enough to be their grandfather? Also if the Chinese are so collectivistic and stick together, why are all these China girls so disloyal and trying to be with you?

  80. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @joe webb

    As a chink, I can assure you that we are very capable of individualism and introversion. Meanwhile whites seem to me to be very strange and primitive, mostly because of their solipsism. Their inability to imagine that anyone but themselves are capable of complex thought is very infantile.

    • Replies: @Seraphim
  81. denk says:
    @joe webb

    * There are no principles for Chinese, he said, It is all just gregariousness and wheel and dealing. They don’t care about freedom , rights, etc. It is all family stuff, and politics is just smash and grab.*

    so u post two long rants just to confirm my point,
    u’r a certified psychopath.
    im not calling u name, this is according to whitemen’s psychology theory,
    by whitemen’s def., a psychopath is ….
    someone who accuse others of what he’s doing himself.
    a robber crying robbery. !

    *Whites are the most beautiful race on the planet and the shit people want to kill us. Look at Venezuela…Brownness demanding more Free Money.*

    this man is raving mad, why is he here instead of in some asylum ?
    yet he’s no different from the 45 elected potus so far, he might even end up in wh one of this day.
    murkka scare the hell outta me.

  82. Seraphim says:
    @Anonymous

    @Their inability to imagine that anyone but themselves are capable of complex thought is very infantile.

    In that case (jw) it appears to be “second childhood”. It was a ‘polite’ term for the current scientific term which is senile dementia. In some people, inappropriate sexual behavior occurs at this stage.

  83. joe webb says:

    so, the central point that I have argued is that oriental despotism in China and the rest of the world to boot, characterizes the China experience, etc. None of you guys have been able to muster an argument to refute my point.

    Second, ‘complex thought’ is possible for higher IQ folks, like Chinese, Japanese, and Koreans, but the personality factors of extreme collectivism/herdism, prevents any such ‘complex thought’ about Liberty and Free Speech, and Democratic political norms, etc. from emerging. A corollary of this, is that you folks are extremely anti-democratic socially and politically. You rank one-another from 1 to 10….while Whites tend to much less of that. This is a form of love, with which you folks are also psychologically not fitted for…that is, social love or the Christian charity, disinterested love, love without , shall we say, money concerns, by which you folks are plagued, greed, that is.

    (What was that word my Berkeley informant used, the Berzerkeley liberal white women….oh yeah, “rapacious.” That is what you are per everybody I talk to. Including the half Chink I reported on as well. Of course, he is half White and thus possesses some mental traits that allows him to perceive your rapacity.)

    If it is not in the biological mental constitution, the trait, it is just not there. Hence, Whites who possess it, and are the only race to possess it, explains the phenomenon of world wide despotism in politics, outside the White world.

    Let me further explain that relative democratic norms are personality based, not intellectually based. Whites in Germania, the Vikings, and the Greco-Roman world, and later the even more democratic (Stoicism)Hellenistic world, were expressing their cave-man adjustments to social and environmental reality of the last, say 30 thousand years of evolution under circumstances of relative lack of competition for resources in Europe…lots of game, etc. and the need to interact with other cave-man groups of the Neolithic, and thus worked out cooperative arrangements that led to altruism, cooperation, and democratic norms. Relative is the key word.

    Then, say, about 5 thousand years ago in the Pontic Steppes, etc. we were never regimented or enslaved, although we did later enslave others. Like everybody else probably..

    So while Asians also evolved higher intelligence under the snow and ice conditions of the North, what with the probable end of the Ice Age about 10 thousand years ago, the conditions supporting the development of psychological traits favoring not only cooperation, but independence/individualism, were lacking for them.

    That may sound pretty impressionistic, but that seems to be the only explanation for the differences between the evolved psychology of Whites, vs. the Asians, and the Darkies generally.

    Also, per the article last year at UR on wheat agriculture vs. rice agriculture and 5 thousand years of the demands of rice agriculture…extreme cooperation, vs. the relative independence of individuals growing wheat, can further explain why you Asians are collectivist. Also one could deploy this argument to the Fertile Crescent and the demands of agriculture there…more regimentation, etc. This article tagged it with “bio-cultural coevolution.”

    So you can deploy your ad hominem arguments , because that is what extreme social gossipers do, or you can try to Think about it. But you cannot. You are mentally unfitted for it, and for that you are excused on biological grounds, but that will not prevent us Whites getting you shipped back to your despotic homeland.

    By the way, I could be demented, the “de” suggests that something has been lost, but you folks are beyond any kind of salvation of the White type. You don’t have the trait, and never will have it. Of course there is always room for outliers, like the White-in-the-woodpile, who can plant the seed of altruism and democratic and Christian love in those without it.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  84. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @joe webb

    Joe,
    By the way, I could be demented, the “de” suggests that something has been lost, but you folks are beyond any kind of salvation of the White type.”

    This “White type” your brother-in- salvation?

    http://gawker.com/this-shirtless-mountain-dew-motherfucker-is-the-living-1782370385

  85. Joe Wong says:
    @Quartermaster

    People said USA has a most lethal weapon in world that nobody can beat, it is called “big mouth loose cannon” brigade, it seems you are a member of that brigade but a low rank one.

    • Replies: @joe webb
  86. joe webb says:
    @Joe Wong

    it seems like you still do not have an argument. NO argument, get personal.

    That fit s my general analysis of Principle vs. Social Conformism.

    (The moderator is saving you from a more complete analysis) And, the’ loose cannon’ to an Asian is the Worst Possible Thing. You guys just do what you are told, something a chinese doc said about himself when we were arguing about something. He lost the argument, but appealed to Authority, the Emperor, and prostrated himself in the dust.

    By the way, the reason Asians commit suicide a fair amount is that Losing Face means the Social has overwhelmed them, the social condemnation. Whites tend not to do that, loss of face.

    When it comes to Principle, a White can stand up to social condemnation much better than Asians because we can invoke Principle. You guys don’t have Principles, so when ostracized, etc. you are just plain kicked-off the bus and do not have inner resources to stiffen your backbones.

    “If thou art privy to thy country’s fate, which happily, foreknowing, may avoid, speak.” Hamlet. Something you guys don’t understand. You understand Country as in spying for China, but you do not understand Speak.

    Joe Webb

  87. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    From Thucydides to Cato to China. Whew. Lions and tigers and bears, o my. What happened in ancient Greece reminds me more of today’s fracas between the globalists and the nationalists than traditional geopolitics. I think more and more people are deciding they like having their own countries instead of being ruled by nameless, faceless bureaucrats with no interest in any particular place or people. Just like in ancient Greece advocates for or against the aristocracy came to blows in every polis, while the Persians watched from the sidelines hoping to cash in on the turmoil by plying politicians with cash. In the end that didn’t work out so well for anyone. Alexander came along and that was the end of the preclassical era for both Persia and independent Greece. We have Medizers too, and an authoritarian state (Russia/Sparta) opposed to a democratic state (America/Athens). Once the Persians were out of the picture Rome was free to consolidate their rule in the Western Mediterranean by wiping out Carthage. Maybe we have a Macedonia somewhere waiting in the wings. I’m getting too old to have any hope of seeing how this will work out, but I would like to see a policy adopted in the West of Islamo delenda est. In the meantime I wonder if any gays have thought of blowing up mosques?

  88. joe webb says:

    humanitarian question: with our cousins inside or not?? Medizers is not quite it, but close. We have genuine traitors to country and race. and they claim the moral high ground of One World.

    One bullet each for them, no torture. JW

  89. joe webb says:

    And it all apparently started with stoicism which was largely a reaction to petty nationalisms.

    We need a world-wide racial nationalism, a racial communitarianism. If there is going to be war, and there does not have to be war, if people just wake-up to our biological necessities, then let it be race war…a solid biological foundation is thereby provided.

    JW

  90. denk says:

    jw n co.

    i grew up with murkkan comics ,ww2 shoot them krauts, tarzan, david crockket shoot them injuns etc and brit ww2 comics [blackn white]. when i grew older i watched lots of murkkans films , dirty harry, magnicent seven, steve mcqueen, the lot.
    i mourned the challenger disaster, ‘we’r all murkkans now’ [sic] ,cheer the assault on tiny grenada. cuz like everbody else the papers i read all took their ‘news’ from cnn, reuters, aft etc., they told us grenada was a threat to murkka cuz the cubans were building a military airport . besides, there were murkkan medical students there whose lives were in jeopardy.
    looking back, a fucking ‘anglophile’ living in a bubble of delusion.
    a ‘mushroom’ like most murkkans today, ‘kept in the dark and fed bushit all day’.

    that bubble burst in 1998, the yr i got a 2nd hand pc with win95 on it. yeah i discovered internet at the age of 46 , not very savvy eh, im not the kind of folks who’d queue up overnite to get an iphone !
    . antiwar.com was my introduction to the alternate media, it had tons of kickass writers like charley reese [rip], harry browne [rip], chalmers johnson [rip], raimondo seems to lose that fire in the belly these days, or what ? [3]
    one week into it my view of the world was turned upside down by the daily expose’ of western shenanigans, hypocrisy and its epic crimes against humanities. i learned of the made in washington genocides in indonesia, vn, cambodia and laos. grenada was a fucking fraud, so was the attack on panama, the gulf of tonkin …in fact the murkka’s fraudulant wars goes right back to the sinking of the maIne false flag.
    to put a long story short, i outgrew my ‘anglophile’ fantasy.

    during the lead up to the attack on ex yugo, after reading expose after expose of murkkaN shenanigans,
    with its false pretext torn to shreds, i was telling myself ‘their game is up, no way washington is gonna to attack yugo.’
    yet they did, 78 days of carpet bombing taking out hospitals, markets, residence, civi factories.
    they got away with it, yugo was dismembered as planned.

    i heard the tonnage of bombs dropped on yugo exceeded those dropped during the entire ww2 !
    u’d find such ‘overkill’ repeated in the attack on iraq, afghan, libya, syria, yet these are child’s play compared to the carpet bombing of nam, laos, cambodia, wiping out three generations of ‘shit’ people.
    why, its as if someone’s godown was bursting, he’s trying to off load his stockpile of bombs and missiles! [1]

    washington has never looked back since.
    the same pattern was to repeat over and over again, in iraq, afghan, libya, syria etc.
    the west led by the unitedsnake wanted to attack a sovereign country for resource grab or geopolitical ‘great game’. they manufactured a crisis, responded with feinted outrage and barge in to ‘save life’.
    its like an arsonist who started a fire, sounded the alarm , then came back to the crime scene in firemen’s grab to offer his ‘service’ ….usually by pouring more kerosine on the fire !!

    what about the expose’ in alternate sites, all those analysis, , appeals, outrage, ?
    a fat lot of good !
    the assholes proceeded with their plan and got away with it, every single time.
    problem, outrage, solution.
    lather, rinse, repeat.
    kinda like a rapist committing his crime in broad daylight, with tv camermen recording his criminal acts, media analysing, anticipating and lambasting his every move except….no cops show up to stop him. !!!
    its almost surreal .
    this is your vaunted ‘freedom of expression’ , your ‘democracy ‘ at work ?

    whitemen’s ‘democracy’..
    ‘hey boys n gals, you can bitch all u want, just dont mess with daddy’s work ok!’ [2]

    the cabal is currently waging proxy wars on two front with russia and china.
    the same old playbook, manufactured crisis, manufactured outrage, finally the reluctant sheriff got himself
    ‘dragged into’ another conflict by the ‘international community’, screaming and kicking !

    how do the assholes managed to pull it off in 235 yrs outta its 240 yrs history ?
    courtesy of self righteous, chest thumping, white supremacists like u, jw, craig nelsen, qm, max payne…

    ‘ whitemen are ‘beautiful’ !!
    but u dispense the worst kind of shit on those ‘shitty’ people in venezuela etc.
    from what i gathered, its all about ‘we the ubermenchen vs them the undermenchen’.
    bombing ‘shit’ people is dandy, god says so !
    if not for gents like ron unz, i’d have written whitemen off wholesale.

    how long have u been hanging around in alternate sites like unz ?
    unlike those who get all their daily rations from the faux news etc, aka the ‘mushrooms’, u’ve been informed, u know what has been done in your name all over the world. there’s no excuse !
    how many fallujahs has been committed on a daily basis ?

    but truth is not your objective, u stare right thru the evidence as if its not there.
    the only reason u hang around alternate sites is to uphold your ‘whitemen honor’, defending the indisfensible !

    i found out the truth very late , almost wasted fifty yrs of my life.
    but late is better than never i guess.
    when will the truth ever set u free ???

    [2]

    http://sainthoward.blogspot.com/2014/12/putting-saints-in-jail.html

  91. joe webb says:

    I should have made it clear, a White racial nationalism that is “international”…Europe, N. America, etc.

    JW

  92. @Wizard of Oz

    Rubbish. The opium trade was a commercial operation. You might as well say the American government pushed railroads across America to allow control of the Amerindians. What comics do you rely on for your historical factoids?

    What’s not generally understood is that opium was legal and widely available worldwide. It was only in the early 20th century that opium was outlawed along with other narcotic drugs and alcohol in the US. Opium dens abounded everywhere ethnic Chinese settled outside of China, yet those self-same Chinese prospered. Note also that opium grown within China itself remained legal, so the idea that that foreigners were plotting to force opium upon the Chinese is disingenuous. In practice, the Chinese authorities had an issue with opium consumption only if the opium were foreign in origin.

    • Replies: @joe webb
    , @Anonymous
  93. joe webb says:
    @Johann Ricke

    the chink, hidden from view, unleashes his hatreds. funny. No accountability, just spew your spleen.

    Whites invented liberty, and you don’t know what it is. You don’t have the White genes, but you are greedy little fellas, rapacious.

    Joe Webb

  94. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Johann Ricke

    The British government was concerned about its trade deficit and saw the opium trade as an avenue to both get more out of India and to reverse its deficit. And the British government went to war following the Chinese government’s attempts to ban the import of opium in order to continue the trade, so obviously the British did force the importation of opium. The forced importation of opium increased the supply of opium in China, and diminished national sovereignty.

  95. ChrisD says:
    @random observer

    Agreed. The analogy also breaks down when you consider a basic, albeit fundamental, difference – geography. Make no mistake, demographics might be destiny but geography is history and the US-China relationship is one of proxy war not direct conflict, much like the USSR post WW2 except China liberalised to compete with Murica and compete with rival economies (ping Japan and Korea). China have also been ruled by committee for decades so their warfare tactics are fairly mundane if not conservative. The breakthrough was the South China Sea innovation which, in my opinion, was the brainchild of the Chinese military not the government arm. In any case, Carthage was an existential threat to Rome due to geography and the wildcard – Hannibal. Those two factors are not present in the US-Murica rivalry.

  96. @Max Payne

    Have you been to the United States recently? In China, mothers may hold their infants over trash cans to defecate, but at least they are infants and at least it’s in trash cans. Here we have adults doing it right on the sidewalk.

    Besides, if you imagine that the reason people spit is because they don’t care about saving face, then you you don’t understand face-saving.

  97. @Anonymous

    What I meant by “total war” was that the Chinese thirst for revenge will not be sated by eclipsing our economy or besting us at the Olympics or making our fighter jets run away. It has to be full-on military victory.

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