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Where to Go with Turkey
Erdogan's electoral fraud must be challenged
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The dizzying spiral of incompetent military and political interventions carried out by Washington in the Middle East suggests strongly that the best U.S. foreign policy would be one that is essentially inert. One only has to look at the inherent contradictions in what appears to be the Trump Administration policy towards Syria to understand how the United States has somehow gone down a path that leads nowhere. Last week, NATO member and nominal U.S. ally Turkey bombed Kurdish militiamen operating against ISIS in Iraq and Syria. Iraq is an American ally and one group of Kurds that suffered twenty fatalities was being advised by U.S. special forces. The Kurds, who are reported to be the most effective soldiers in the American supported pushback against ISIS, are described by the Turkish government as terrorists. No Americans were killed in the Turkish bombing but that was more a matter of luck than any benign intention on the part of the Turks.

Turkish and American policies are largely out of sync because they have different goals. The Trump campaign’s stated Middle Eastern policy, which has already been modified, was to destroy ISIS without any further entanglement in the region. Turkey’s objective has been from the beginning to forestall any creation of an independent Kurdish state near its border that might serve as a haven for what it describes as terrorism from the PKK and other related groups. All other interests are secondary and it has cooperated with ISIS as well as with al-Ansar when it has felt that to be desirable.

Both Washington and Ankara do now agree that it is necessary to replace the government of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, which, if anything, exemplifies the essential unreality of what the two nations are seeking to accomplish. Washington has, in doing so, inserted itself more deeply into the Syrian quagmire while at the same time seeking to hobble the most effective force against ISIS, which is the Syrian military. And, as collateral damage, it has harmed, possibly beyond repair, the relationship with Russia.

Turkey, for its part, would wind up with a Syria that will lack a strong central government and will produce the devolution into tribal and religio-ethnic units that will undoubtedly include a Kurdish self-rule region similar to that which has developed in neighboring Iraq. Both Washington and Ankara have therefore come down on a policy alignment that cannot be successful without major direct intervention and retention of ground troops along the lines of Afghanistan that will wind up creating even greater problems as the entire situation unravels.

Turkey is undeniably a major player in the Middle East. With a large and relatively well-educated population and a diversified industrial base, it possesses a powerful and well-equipped army. It would be considered important in any reckoning, but it also benefits from geography as a bridge between Europe and Asia, between the Muslim and Christian worlds. For the United States and Western Europe there is another dimension as Turkey is also part of NATO, a treaty that has as Article 5 a key mandate compelling all alliance members to come to the aid of any one member that is attacked. It is referred to as “collective defense.”

Article 5 is particularly important as Turkey has already tried to stage a false flag attack on the part of Syria as well as a shoot-down of a Russian warplane to draw the NATO alliance in on its war to bring down al-Assad. Incredibly, in the false flag attempt on a shrine in Syria guarded by Turkish soldiers, Erdogan and his security chief were willing to kill their own troops to accomplish that end. Erdogan has also threatened to invade and occupy parts of neighboring Iraq and Syria to “protect Turks.” Turkey also has supported ISIS when it suited its government to do so and has reportedly been a supplier of sarin gas to rebels inside Syria.

Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s recent margin of victory in a referendum that will grant him near dictatorial powers was razor thin. It was run under a national state of emergency controlled by Erdogan, who worked relentlessly to heighten both xenophobia and the fears of the voters over terrorism. The actual result was nevertheless obtained through nationwide organized fraud, with policemen and local officials standing inside polling stations and demanding that voters mark their ballots in front of them to insure “yes” votes. Even some Kurdish parts of Turkey apparently and mysteriously wound up with large numbers of votes for Erdogan, the man who has called them terrorists and waged a bloody campaign of repression in the country’s southeast. The Stockholm Center for Freedom noted “widespread and systematic election fraud, violent incidents and scandalous steps taken by the biased Supreme Board of Elections.” Germany has called for an inquiry into the allegations of election fraud.

European observers noted critically that in the lead-up to the voting the Turkish public was subjected to an unrelenting barrage of propaganda supporting Erdogan, a reflection of the fact that the potential opposition media had either been shut down or cowed into submission. Opposition rallies were banned and opposition demonstrators were beaten and arrested. When the German and Dutch governments refused to allow Turkish government officials to hold massive rallies of expatriate Turks in their countries, Erdogan called them Nazis, vowed revenge, and threatened to unleash terrorism in Europe.

The first foreign leader to call Erdogan and congratulate him on his win was President Donald Trump and it is also reported that Erdogan will be making a state visit to Washington later this month. Instead of a warm welcome, the United States government should be taking steps to boot Turkey out of NATO and minimize various aspects of its relationship with Ankara.

Erdogan has deliberately and cynically destroyed democracy in Turkey. In the aftermath of the recent referendum he immediately moved to arrest even more citizens who have criticized him and to fire nearly 4,000 more government employees, referring to them as traitors. He is an autocrat who might even better be described as a megalomaniac driven to promote policies that are both self-serving and erratic that rely on incendiary populist appeals to maintain power. He heads an increasingly corrupt regime and has ruthlessly sacrificed his own people to his own ambition while opening the door to a new wave of terror within Turkey itself.

Erdogan has done much of this by exploiting an apparent coup against him in July 2016, which he might have known about in advance. The coup plotters, drawn from the military, appear to have been appalled by the domestic and international violence unleashed by Erdogan, calling themselves a “peace at home council.” Erdogan took advantage of the coup by staging mass arrests and granting to himself emergency powers, an authority that has since been extended and which he still exploits.

Erdogan has been jailing journalists for the past four years on charges of treason and has made it a crime to criticize himself. Thirty journalists from the opposition newspaper Zaman are now facing life in prison sentencing from courts that will do whatever the president wants and there have also been demands from Erdogan to reinstate the death penalty for “traitors.” Turkish citizens who demonstrate against his grandiose building projects are called “terrorists” before being arrested, beaten and shot. He has fired judges and policemen who have tried to investigate various crimes connected to large scale corruption involving his immediate family and key supporters. He has fired and jailed elected and appointed government officials, including parliamentarians. He has promoted his own particular strict brand of Islam and has introduced Islamic legislation in violation of the Turkish constitution, built new mosques and religious schools and shut down much secular education. The new government approved curriculum in schools is to be based on religion and relies on teachers approved for their piety.

Since July, Erdogan has rounded up and arrested more than 160,000 Turks, including 47,000 who have been sent to prison. Many suffered from the misfortunate of appearing on an “enemies” list, which clearly was prepared and ready before the coup. Some of those arrested are being tortured to produce confessions implicating others. More than 140,000 other Turks have lost their jobs in purges at universities, hospitals, schools and military bases. Turkish Consulates and Embassies abroad have been ordered by Ankara to compile lists of local Turks who might be considered “disloyal” to the president. Owning the wrong kind of book or having attended a suspect school has been enough to ruin someone’s life and, at one point, even possessing a dollar bill was considered a sign that one was part of a conspiracy. Some have compared today’s Turkey to an “open air prison.”

The social media are being shut down or censored and both emails and phone calls are being monitored by the formidably effective Turkish Military Intelligence Service (MIT). Demonstrators brave enough to go against Erdogan are treated as enemies of the state, some being arrested in the middle of the night, and the once powerful Turkish military is being turned into a version of an Islamic militia with its leaders owing both their positions and loyalty to the president.

The Stalinist-style purge list includes a large part of Turkey’s educated elite and is being driven by both class and the rural-urban divide, with Erdogan’s own rock solid political support coming from the deeply religious but poorly educated Anatolians. Ironically, in terms of European and American interests, it is the more cosmopolitan Turks who are most supportive of western values and democracy and it is they who will suffer most. In the recent referendum, all the major cities in Turkey voted against Erdogan while the rural countryside went solidly for him. Throw in the fraud and it was enough for the “new Sultan” to declare victory.

I am a great admirer of the Turkish people and it is unfortunately true that quite ordinary Turks will inevitably be the ones who will pay the price most in the “new Turkey” of Erdogan. U.S. interests relating to an increasingly demanding and abrasive Turkey are largely limited to the use of Incirlik Airbase to bomb Syria. Against that, Turkey offers little or nothing to the effort to eliminate terrorist groups from the region as it is more interested in killing Kurds than Sunni radicals, with whom it has enjoyed friendly relations. It is time to cut back on the tie that binds both at NATO in Brussels and in Washington unless political prisoners are released and basic rights are restored. Erdogan has become a loose cannon on deck, a short-term asset in permitting access to an airbase, but a major liability in almost every other respect. As democracy vanishes in Ankara it is time to get back to basics. Washington should respect the right of every country to select the kind of government it wants and it should maintain friendly relations whenever possible, but that doesn’t mean we Americans have to provide our seal of approval on the process.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Recep Tayyip Erdogan, Turkey 
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  1. The advice offered in the commentary would be reasonable, except that the yankee imperium itself has degenerated into a sort of sham democracy and deep state dictatorship itself.

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  2. In our public discours, that which Erdogan is actually doing is what Putin is being accused of doing; with the correspondingly disproportionate response.

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  3. In the same way that the ancestors bent before the will of Kemal Ataturk, so will the current generation bend before Tayyip Erdogan. And why is that so bad? He is the champion of the periphery, just like Marine Le Pen, and perhaps like Trump [was]. The periphery must be included for a nation to remain a nation. Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

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    • Replies: @Randal

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.
     
    Spot on, imo.
    , @Kiza
    This rural idille which you describe could be valid if not for the neo-Ottoman ambitions of Erdogan - he wants to re-establish the empire of which he would be the sultan. Luckily the character is a totally crooked dill and he will destroy Turkey before he and his band of marry crooks could restore anything. Turkey is already economically imploding thanks to instability generated by Erdogan - this is where you are unintentionally correct - Erdogan is similar to Trump, but he has nothing similar with Le Pen, who is a genuine article.

    Perhaps, by your measurements, when Erdogan kills Turkish soldiers to blame this on Syrian Assad, this is "authentic".
    , @Talha
    Hey Cato,

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic.
     
    Being a traditional Muslim, I'm all for this and think we should stay the hell out, but I have two particular concerns:
    1) I hope extremists vigilantes or mobs are not allowed free reign to oppress minorities
    2) That this consolidation of power was not done by principle and rule of law, but by manipulation and heavy handedness

    This is exactly what I despised about the secular nationalists under Attaturk, so why should I approve it now simply because an Islam-oriented government does it. Simply due to a change of hats/turbans?

    Peace.

    , @anon
    "Turkey will become a little less European".

    Turkey was never a European country. Its return to despotism is consistent with being an Islamic country.
  4. No more foreign interference on sovereign nations.
    If the Anatolians want him out, let them do it themselves.
    No more CIA coups.
    And actually “bend to the will” of Erdogan is a CHOICE of Western Nations, as they could very well act like they must in the first place and reject anything that’s not of their National interests.

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    • Agree: Alden
    • Replies: @Man on the street
    Actually, from the beginning our media reported that Turkey is strictly a secular nation, and it has an Islamic candidate, who is running against the Secular system. The presstitude however, did not have a tone of indignation or reported the dismay of our CIA or NATO?

    In other words, the US deep state acquiesced with the Islamization of Turkey. If the CIA was unhappy with such candidate, that POS would never have been in office.
  5. Erdogan seems to think he will get on better with Trump than with Obama (Erdogan is conveniently forgetting Trump’s appeals to anti-Islam feeling). It is true that Trump and Erdogan are both demagogic blowhards with rather similar personalities. Whether this will be enough to ensure a beautiful relationship is doubtful.

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    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @Randal

    Erdogan seems to think he will get on better with Trump than with Obama (Erdogan is conveniently forgetting Trump’s appeals to anti-Islam feeling).
     
    Trump clearly has no personal animus against islam or against muslim people per se, bearing in mind his numerous muslim personal and business contacts around the world. The "appeals to anti-Islam feeling" are just political campaign rhetoric, and Erdogan knows that full well.

    Erdogan and Trump will get on fine so long as their interests don't conflict too sharply.
    , @German_reader
    Trump's foreign policy hasn't really shown any clear, general "anti-Islam" direction so far...many people around him are obsessed with Iran, but there's no talk of a general clash with Islam. The US has even escalated its support for Saudi-Arabia's war in Yemen, despite Saudi-Arabia being one of the most important centres of Sunni extremism.
  6. What’s the proposal ?

    My Dutch hairdressser, a ‘Turk’ born here, he does my hair for the last twelve years, is a devout Muslim.
    I did discuss politics with him, until maybe a year ago, when we discovered that Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as ‘our president’.
    My hairdresser explained to me how Atatürk, who in 1920 or so created the Turkish state, against the intentions of France, USA, GB and Greece, estranged the Turkish people from religion.

    He’s right, Atatürk did anything possible to westernise Turkey, forbade even the fez, British hat makers made fortunes exporting hats.
    A devout Turkish Islamic girl, speaking from Istanbul, in perfect english, explained how Erdogan had liberated her, now she can attend university wearing her religious symbol, he head scarf.

    Stalin tried to eradicate religion, he failed, Putin is more sensible, he cooperates with the Russian orthodox catholic church.
    Erdogan does the same, in my opinion.

    Islam cannot separate civil laws from religious laws, to me it is their problem, I regret what’s happening there, but I do not see how we could interfere.
    Or if we did, it would not have the opposite effect.
    I do hope that in time even Muslims will understand that a religious society cannot bring prosperity, but it may take dozens of years, even more.
    In the meantime, I hope that conditions in jails will improve, and the death penalty will be an exception
    But even the USA still has the death penalty.

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig

    Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as ‘our president’.
     
    In a speech given in Germany in 2008 to a group of German-Turks, Erdogan called assimilation "cultural genocide".
    , @Didi
    There once was a not-so-devout Turkish teenage girl in the Netherlands whose parents had betrothed her to a man living in Turkey without her consent. She had never met him and refused to leave the Netherlands (If I remember correctly this happened in Rotterdam). The case might not have gone to court if it had not been for her classmates who created a national ruckus. When it did go to court the Salomonic judge gave the parents two options. Either y' all leave and go to Turkey or remain in the Netherlands and obey Dutch laws meaning: annul the betrothal and let the girl consent when needed. Of course the parents "kozen eieren voor hun geld" and remained in the Netherlands.
    My point? With Turkey developing in the direction of a theocracy it is more than ever needed that violations of Dutch family laws by Turkish families (and Dutch of course too) are not tolerated by the justice department.
    , @Moi
    I take it you have a problem with an overwhelmingly Muslim nation trying to live by the principles of its faith (even as we crow about our Christian-Judaic "values.)

    You neither know anything about Islam or about the history of Islam. However, do try and not display your racism and ignorance.
    , @Alden
    Strange that a ferocious Calvinist anti Catholic should support conservative anti liberal modernism Islam.
  7. Phil, as someone with a long background on Turkey, I wonder if you can answer what I think is the core question about Erdogan with respect to Syria: what did he think would happen?

    When he started this war and let thousands of Islamists cross into Syria, and set about trying to unseat Assad- what did he think the Kurds in Northern Syria were going to do? The Kurds that Syria had been brutally suppressing for fifty years? What did he think would happen when Assad left?

    And what does he think will happen now, when ISIS is beaten? Who does he think will rule in the Kurdish areas of Syria?

    Is there any outcome that doesn’t result in a PKK surrogate statelet on Turkey’s southern border? Or does he plan to simply annex all this territory- and take in a hornet’s nest of additional Kurds?

    You describe the Kurds as Turkey’s number one issue. Well, if so, why did that number one issue take a back seat to ejecting Assad and promoting Islamism, to the point where those Kurds are now a completely insoluble problem for Turkey, one that could have been predicted in 2011 just by glancing at a map?

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    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week...
  8. Whoa, you sound like you don’t like Mr Erdogan much.

    Some have compared today’s Turkey to an “open air prison.”

    Sure. But ‘some’ always say all kinds of things.

    Even some Kurdish parts of Turkey apparently and mysteriously wound up with large numbers of votes for Erdogan, the man who has called them terrorists…

    I’m not an expert in all things Erdogan, but I would be very much surprised if he called all Kurds terrorists… Also, to assume that all Turkish Kurds must vote the same way seems very patronizing and a bit prejudiced. I imagine there must be a fair number of Kurds who prefer stability over turmoil.

    Erdogan has deliberately and cynically destroyed democracy in Turkey.

    But ‘democracy’ is only possible where the society is stable, and all its major groups are willing to compromise. Without these preconditions, ‘democracy’ is likely to exacerbate the problems, and lead to chaos…

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan is prone to make overheated statements, sometimes in a calculated way (the Europe spat) and sometimes not, and in the referendum campaign he went as far as to say that voting No was support for "terrorism". He backtracked on this later but it is a good example of his style. He was trying to mobilise Turkish nationalism for his ends, and addressing an ethnic Turkish audience he is quite capable of chauvinist rhetoric - since the summer of 2015 he has been making a pitch to Islamic-Turkish nationalism whereas prior to that he seemed to be trying to attract Kurdish support. Erdogan's speechifying is full of emotional manipulation and far-fetched claims.

    Prior to his rapprochement with Russia, he made numerous attacks on the Russians as being accomplices of the "criminal Assad", and it can be argued that he and his acolytes helped whip up the climate in which the Russian ambassador Karlov was gunned down last December. Then he had the gall to complain about "provocational statements" when no less a person than Recep Tayyip Erdogan was responsible for a good many of them.
    , @Uebersetzer
    https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/05/03/aggravated-life-sentence-sought-for-comedian-jailed-over-gulen-links/

    This kind of thing doesn't really improve "security" in Turkey, it merely spreads the pall of fear that is one of the main attributes of a tyranny.
    Erdogan is of course Turkey's greatest comedian and may be mobilising the judicial system to persecute potential challengers to the title.
  9. The best thing Erdogan did was to rebuke the Zionist Entity way back when. It’s been all down hill for the pigmy ever since.
    I agree, for the most part, with ‘John Doe’ and ‘Cato’ above.
    Death to Neocons…I just thought I’d add that in. (Grin)

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  10. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Erdogan this, Erdogan that… if somebody doesn’t tow the western line. This from an “expert” whose nation elected one of the most odious human beings, to the highest office on earth? Let’s not even begin about his past job with the most evil organisation on earth.

    No matter what PG voices in his articles, it is people like him, who have fucked up this world so much. Has he, along with his spy-pals, done anything to stop the carnage in the ME?

    If they have, it is clearly not working.

    “…it is the more cosmopolitan Turks who are most supportive of western values and democracy…”
    Western values? You mean the increasing state of decadence and godlessness? How is that a good thing?

    Perhaps the stupid need others to help them from themselves?

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    • Troll: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Perhaps Anonymous needs another website to vent his spleen on. You know nothing about me and what my "past job" entailed. If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.
  11. Erdogan’s electoral fraud must be challenged

    Not by foreigners (ie Americans like Giraldi or Brits like me).

    How they are governed is the Turks’ business and nobody else’s.

    Washington should respect the right of every country to select the kind of government it wants and it should maintain friendly relations whenever possible, but that doesn’t mean we Americans have to provide our seal of approval on the process.

    Indeed.

    For sure Turkey should be neither in NATO nor even prospectively in the EU, but that’s because, respectively, NATO is a redundant and now positively harmful, self-perpetuating bureaucracy that ought to have been wound up when its basic reason for existence vanished in 1991, and because Europe’s core identity is Christian, or nowadays post-Christian, and it should exclude substantial muslim countries on principle. Not as an expression of US disapproval of Turkey’s internal system of governance.

    If you are going to start making policy based upon judgements on foreign countries’ internal governance, you should be making an example of Saudi Arabia first.

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  12. @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan seems to think he will get on better with Trump than with Obama (Erdogan is conveniently forgetting Trump's appeals to anti-Islam feeling). It is true that Trump and Erdogan are both demagogic blowhards with rather similar personalities. Whether this will be enough to ensure a beautiful relationship is doubtful.

    Erdogan seems to think he will get on better with Trump than with Obama (Erdogan is conveniently forgetting Trump’s appeals to anti-Islam feeling).

    Trump clearly has no personal animus against islam or against muslim people per se, bearing in mind his numerous muslim personal and business contacts around the world. The “appeals to anti-Islam feeling” are just political campaign rhetoric, and Erdogan knows that full well.

    Erdogan and Trump will get on fine so long as their interests don’t conflict too sharply.

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  13. @Cato
    In the same way that the ancestors bent before the will of Kemal Ataturk, so will the current generation bend before Tayyip Erdogan. And why is that so bad? He is the champion of the periphery, just like Marine Le Pen, and perhaps like Trump [was]. The periphery must be included for a nation to remain a nation. Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    Spot on, imo.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment "authentic" autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?
    , @SolontoCroesus

    Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.
     
    Define romantic.

    Were Bolsheviks "romantic"? Was Trotsky?
  14. @Cato
    In the same way that the ancestors bent before the will of Kemal Ataturk, so will the current generation bend before Tayyip Erdogan. And why is that so bad? He is the champion of the periphery, just like Marine Le Pen, and perhaps like Trump [was]. The periphery must be included for a nation to remain a nation. Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    This rural idille which you describe could be valid if not for the neo-Ottoman ambitions of Erdogan – he wants to re-establish the empire of which he would be the sultan. Luckily the character is a totally crooked dill and he will destroy Turkey before he and his band of marry crooks could restore anything. Turkey is already economically imploding thanks to instability generated by Erdogan – this is where you are unintentionally correct – Erdogan is similar to Trump, but he has nothing similar with Le Pen, who is a genuine article.

    Perhaps, by your measurements, when Erdogan kills Turkish soldiers to blame this on Syrian Assad, this is “authentic”.

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  15. I wonder why Mr Giraldi tends to attract all these regular unz fools (Mao and Z-man) and trolls to his articles. For some reason these two categories are so keen to put a comment up under his articles. In the past, I thought it was only the Hasbara trolls that he seemed to attract, now the Erdogan trolls feel invited as well. Total pollution.

    Great question Duglarri, I hope Mr Giraldi answers.

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    All Unz commenters in good faith appreciate Mr. Giraldi's writing

    He only replies to comments that are revelant and opposed.

    Steve Sailer, Anatoly. Ilana Mercer, a few others reply to us BTL proles.

    Ilana has stopped, because people (including me, once) ask about the clear contradiction between her father's role in what she rails against and what she rails against.

    Most never reply to a comment, no matter how pertinent the comment.
  16. @Duglarri
    Phil, as someone with a long background on Turkey, I wonder if you can answer what I think is the core question about Erdogan with respect to Syria: what did he think would happen?

    When he started this war and let thousands of Islamists cross into Syria, and set about trying to unseat Assad- what did he think the Kurds in Northern Syria were going to do? The Kurds that Syria had been brutally suppressing for fifty years? What did he think would happen when Assad left?

    And what does he think will happen now, when ISIS is beaten? Who does he think will rule in the Kurdish areas of Syria?

    Is there any outcome that doesn't result in a PKK surrogate statelet on Turkey's southern border? Or does he plan to simply annex all this territory- and take in a hornet's nest of additional Kurds?

    You describe the Kurds as Turkey's number one issue. Well, if so, why did that number one issue take a back seat to ejecting Assad and promoting Islamism, to the point where those Kurds are now a completely insoluble problem for Turkey, one that could have been predicted in 2011 just by glancing at a map?

    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week…

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    I look forward to your new article in the amconmag Mr Giraldi. The topic you promise to cover is one of the most interesting: what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria? They surely have not given up just because Assad has been defeating their proxy terrorists.

    Is it not ironic how US bombs Syrians and endangers the Russians and soon after Turkey bombs the Kurds and endangers the US troops? A kind of immediate cosmic payback.
    , @Uebersetzer
    I agree with this. The AKP lost its overall majority in the June 2015 election, though it was still the largest party, and most commentators attribute this to the HDP entering parliament. This was the first time the AKP's run of election sentences was interrupted and within about five weeks Erdogan turned on the HDP. The two events were close to one another in chronological terms, and the one very likely led to the other.
    , @chris
    Of course, he would have been greatly encouraged in his decision to let loose on Syria by the axis of mayhem, Israel, the US, and the Saudis.

    The word "cakewalk" would have featured prominently in the back room consultations.
    , @Apolonius
    I have read somewhere that Erdogan and Assad had good relations, even had holidays together.. Maybe reason for Erdogan´s self-defeating politics about Syria are actually, personal? Quarelled with Assad on vacation?
  17. @jilles dykstra
    What's the proposal ?

    My Dutch hairdressser, a 'Turk' born here, he does my hair for the last twelve years, is a devout Muslim.
    I did discuss politics with him, until maybe a year ago, when we discovered that Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as 'our president'.
    My hairdresser explained to me how Atatürk, who in 1920 or so created the Turkish state, against the intentions of France, USA, GB and Greece, estranged the Turkish people from religion.

    He's right, Atatürk did anything possible to westernise Turkey, forbade even the fez, British hat makers made fortunes exporting hats.
    A devout Turkish Islamic girl, speaking from Istanbul, in perfect english, explained how Erdogan had liberated her, now she can attend university wearing her religious symbol, he head scarf.

    Stalin tried to eradicate religion, he failed, Putin is more sensible, he cooperates with the Russian orthodox catholic church.
    Erdogan does the same, in my opinion.

    Islam cannot separate civil laws from religious laws, to me it is their problem, I regret what's happening there, but I do not see how we could interfere.
    Or if we did, it would not have the opposite effect.
    I do hope that in time even Muslims will understand that a religious society cannot bring prosperity, but it may take dozens of years, even more.
    In the meantime, I hope that conditions in jails will improve, and the death penalty will be an exception
    But even the USA still has the death penalty.

    Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as ‘our president’.

    In a speech given in Germany in 2008 to a group of German-Turks, Erdogan called assimilation “cultural genocide”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    One aspect of the Erdogan problem is that even Dutch citizens of Turkish descent are seen by him as his citizens, the problem is aggravated because many Dutch 'Turks' have the same, in real Dutch eyes, weird idea.
    Therefore the double nationality, one cannot even dissociate oneself from the Turkish nationality, is hotly debated all over W Europe.
    Israel and Morocco also have the opinion that one always remains either Israeli or Moroccan.

    The Kurd problem is a real problem, my hairdresser says contemptuously 'they want a third of Turkey'.
    The Balkan peoples alas have a long history of being unable te live together.
    The fault in the Turkish Kurdish problem rests on both sides, in my view, Kurds in the past often fought among themselves.
    But indeed, Atatürk betrayed them, Kurds fought on his side against GB, France and Greece, they got nothing in return.

    In my view there is no reason at all for the west to interfere in Turkey, let them sort out their own business.
    Russia I do not see as any threat, I welcome weakening of NATO.
  18. Erdogan … might even better be described as a megalomaniac driven to promote policies that are both self-serving and erratic that rely on incendiary populist appeals to maintain power. He heads an increasingly corrupt regime …

    Hmmm, it sounds as if he and the Trumpster have more than a few things in common and may likely get along famously, with or without sharing a beautiful chocolate cake .

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  19. @Philip Giraldi
    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week...

    I look forward to your new article in the amconmag Mr Giraldi. The topic you promise to cover is one of the most interesting: what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria? They surely have not given up just because Assad has been defeating their proxy terrorists.

    Is it not ironic how US bombs Syrians and endangers the Russians and soon after Turkey bombs the Kurds and endangers the US troops? A kind of immediate cosmic payback.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria?
     
    when I first started to research this issue, [specifically the war on Syria and Turkey's involvement], I discovered that the maps of Syria that I found on the net were noticeably different- in that some of them included what is called the Hatay Province, and some didn't.

    The Hatay is a very nice piece of real estate right on the Med that has always been historically Syrian going back to antiquity even before the days of Alexander the Great and continuing thought the Ottoman Empire, but it seems that during a French occupation and colonial treachery revolving around WWII, it was handed to Turkey in a fixed 'referendum' that Syria never recognized and doesn't even today. Kind of like England handing Palestine away for reasons of imperial expedience.

    Anyways this is a map of Syria that shows Syria intact.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/syrian/Map.gif

    they're increasingly rare when surfing the net from the West.

    here's a more typical map that shows the province carved off

    http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/asia/Syria-physical-map.gif

    a sugar coated Western version that claims it's Turkish territory

    http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hatay_Province

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    Israel obviously wants the Golan, and anything else it can steal. Turkey wants to have the Hatay as undisputed territory, and anything else it can steal on its Southern borders.

    the Saudis want to destroy all non-Wahhabi regimes that threaten its uber-corrupt domination from the eastern regions of the greater Levant and 'put it to' its rival Iran by destroying an Iranian ally.

    The ZUSA (congressional whores and sadly, the potus) just wants to pander to Israel in any way, shape or form that it can.

    It tomorrow, somehow it was members of the Alawite sect who suddenly controlled the Federal Reserve Bank and consequently our media and institutions, then the 'A'USA would immediately demand that Israel get out of the Golan and the occupied territories and Turkey get out of the Hatay and Kurdistan would find its border secure by NATO and there'd be peace.

    But they don't. And the US congress being perfect whore$, it's Syria that is being carved apart. (or was until Vlad put a stop to the brazen rapine)

    I think you and most people know all of this, but I'm just chiming in here point out the obvious I guess.
  20. Jan 21, 2017 Turkey Terror Spike: Operation Gladio B Targets Turkey’s Erdogan

    Sibel Edmonds examines the recent increase of terror attacks in Turkey, who is behind the attacks and why.

    Read More
  21. @Philip Giraldi
    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week...

    I agree with this. The AKP lost its overall majority in the June 2015 election, though it was still the largest party, and most commentators attribute this to the HDP entering parliament. This was the first time the AKP’s run of election sentences was interrupted and within about five weeks Erdogan turned on the HDP. The two events were close to one another in chronological terms, and the one very likely led to the other.

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  22. anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    Erdogan’s family was exposed as racketeering in stolen Syrian oil, buying it from ISIS and thus putting money in the coffers of the terrorists, the same terrorists everyone is supposedly fighting. Not much of an ally there. Wonder how many millions they’ve enriched themselves with by this. They’ve also been funneling jihadi fighters into the Syrian conflict as well as weaponizing so-called refugees against Europe. Again, not the actions of a friend.
    Is it the policy of the US to create a Kurdish state carved out of the countries in which they live? If so then that’s opposed by all of the affected states and they’d try to thwart that, Turkey included. More likely the US is merely exploiting the Kurds as cannon-fodder and will drop them when no longer needed as has been done previously. As Kissinger explained, foreign policy isn’t to be confused with missionary work.
    Ataturk tried to bring the country into the modern world. The gains are being eroded as Erdogan tries to return to a mythical glorious past that doesn’t exist anymore. It being a member of NATO is an artifact of the cold war and may be outdated. Historically Turkey has been an enemy of Europe and the west and it being an “ally” can now be seen as a blip in time as it reverts back.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Indeed the Kurds should be warned about the probability of being let down by the US. At least when the Brits let down friends in Aden they had pretty well been exhausted by successive wars and colonial insurgencies.
  23. The Middle East was most stable under Turkish hegemony for many centuries. Turkey is the Sunni defense against Iranian Shiia expansionism. Erdogan need international support.

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    • Troll: Kiza
    • Replies: @Alden
    You are absolutely right that Turkey stabilized the ME for centuries. But turkey was always an enemy of Europe from its slave raiding to the constant successful attempts to expand into Europe.
  24. Why should Turkey be democratic in the first place? Ataturk was wrong. It’s not in their culture or history, probably for good reason.

    There is actually much to be learned from Turkish style nationalism, especially how they deal with leftists. If European leaders were anything like Erdogan, they wouldn’t have their migrant/diversity crisis. Letting cosmopolitan urbanites decide the fate of a nation is essentially national suicide.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Turkey has a huge migrant/diversity crisis - three million Syrian refugees. There are clashes on an almost weekly basis between them now and indigenous Turks in southern Turkish cities like Mersin and Adana.
    I suppose European leaders are not like Erdogan because they do not see Adenoid Hynkel as an appropriate role model.
  25. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Whoa, you sound like you don't like Mr Erdogan much.

    Some have compared today’s Turkey to an “open air prison.”
     
    Sure. But 'some' always say all kinds of things.

    Even some Kurdish parts of Turkey apparently and mysteriously wound up with large numbers of votes for Erdogan, the man who has called them terrorists...
     
    I'm not an expert in all things Erdogan, but I would be very much surprised if he called all Kurds terrorists... Also, to assume that all Turkish Kurds must vote the same way seems very patronizing and a bit prejudiced. I imagine there must be a fair number of Kurds who prefer stability over turmoil.

    Erdogan has deliberately and cynically destroyed democracy in Turkey.
     
    But 'democracy' is only possible where the society is stable, and all its major groups are willing to compromise. Without these preconditions, 'democracy' is likely to exacerbate the problems, and lead to chaos...

    Erdogan is prone to make overheated statements, sometimes in a calculated way (the Europe spat) and sometimes not, and in the referendum campaign he went as far as to say that voting No was support for “terrorism”. He backtracked on this later but it is a good example of his style. He was trying to mobilise Turkish nationalism for his ends, and addressing an ethnic Turkish audience he is quite capable of chauvinist rhetoric – since the summer of 2015 he has been making a pitch to Islamic-Turkish nationalism whereas prior to that he seemed to be trying to attract Kurdish support. Erdogan’s speechifying is full of emotional manipulation and far-fetched claims.

    Prior to his rapprochement with Russia, he made numerous attacks on the Russians as being accomplices of the “criminal Assad”, and it can be argued that he and his acolytes helped whip up the climate in which the Russian ambassador Karlov was gunned down last December. Then he had the gall to complain about “provocational statements” when no less a person than Recep Tayyip Erdogan was responsible for a good many of them.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    The interesting thing for me that never in my now long life I saw a madman take control of a country and a people.
    Of course one can suppose that more present day politicians are crazy, especially in Brussels, Verhofstadt seems the most crazy, but it is not as obvious.
    If Merkel is a psychiatric case, it may well be, Kohl said so already around 2002, she wants 'to change Germany forever', one may also think that Hollande is far from any reality, as were, before the elections, our Dutch socialist politicians, but the rants of Erdogan are very special.
  26. …he immediately moved to arrest even more citizens who have criticized him …

    I wonder if he more closely resembles John Adams, Lincoln or Wilson.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Or FDR, Eugene Doubs died in prison for unamerican activities.
    Or E.D.Morel, arrested in GB during WWI, he died a few years after the war, from the harsh treatment in jail.
  27. @Anonymous
    Erdogan this, Erdogan that... if somebody doesn't tow the western line. This from an "expert" whose nation elected one of the most odious human beings, to the highest office on earth? Let's not even begin about his past job with the most evil organisation on earth.

    No matter what PG voices in his articles, it is people like him, who have fucked up this world so much. Has he, along with his spy-pals, done anything to stop the carnage in the ME?

    If they have, it is clearly not working.

    "...it is the more cosmopolitan Turks who are most supportive of western values and democracy..."
    Western values? You mean the increasing state of decadence and godlessness? How is that a good thing?

    Perhaps the stupid need others to help them from themselves?

    Perhaps Anonymous needs another website to vent his spleen on. You know nothing about me and what my “past job” entailed. If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete
    While I, for what little it's worth, appreciate your presence here and many of the views you express, and while I am annoyed by those who troll these pages with baseless opinions, may I suggest that the "anonymous" to whom you are responding made some good points and asked some excellent questions and I would expect of man of your experience and professionalism to make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    By doing that, at a minimum, you could no doubt provide some worthwhile insights while burnishing your image.

    In the unlikely case you give a bleep, writing him off as a one merely venting his spleen probably isn't the sort of reply that will gain you much respect, and certainly doesn't address any of his legitimate concerns in a valid manner.


    If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.
     
    It probably isn't the fact that you and "our"country exist that gives some of us so much heartburn, but what most of the "leaders" have always done, but I suspect you already know that.
  28. @Seamus Padraig

    Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as ‘our president’.
     
    In a speech given in Germany in 2008 to a group of German-Turks, Erdogan called assimilation "cultural genocide".

    One aspect of the Erdogan problem is that even Dutch citizens of Turkish descent are seen by him as his citizens, the problem is aggravated because many Dutch ‘Turks’ have the same, in real Dutch eyes, weird idea.
    Therefore the double nationality, one cannot even dissociate oneself from the Turkish nationality, is hotly debated all over W Europe.
    Israel and Morocco also have the opinion that one always remains either Israeli or Moroccan.

    The Kurd problem is a real problem, my hairdresser says contemptuously ‘they want a third of Turkey’.
    The Balkan peoples alas have a long history of being unable te live together.
    The fault in the Turkish Kurdish problem rests on both sides, in my view, Kurds in the past often fought among themselves.
    But indeed, Atatürk betrayed them, Kurds fought on his side against GB, France and Greece, they got nothing in return.

    In my view there is no reason at all for the west to interfere in Turkey, let them sort out their own business.
    Russia I do not see as any threat, I welcome weakening of NATO.

    Read More
    • Replies: @frayedthread

    But indeed, Atatürk betrayed them, Kurds fought on his side against GB, France and Greece, they got nothing in return.
     
    Hey they got to help kill off the Armenians and Greeks, so that must have felt good no?
  29. @jacques sheete

    ...he immediately moved to arrest even more citizens who have criticized him ...
     
    I wonder if he more closely resembles John Adams, Lincoln or Wilson.

    Or FDR, Eugene Doubs died in prison for unamerican activities.
    Or E.D.Morel, arrested in GB during WWI, he died a few years after the war, from the harsh treatment in jail.

    Read More
  30. @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan is prone to make overheated statements, sometimes in a calculated way (the Europe spat) and sometimes not, and in the referendum campaign he went as far as to say that voting No was support for "terrorism". He backtracked on this later but it is a good example of his style. He was trying to mobilise Turkish nationalism for his ends, and addressing an ethnic Turkish audience he is quite capable of chauvinist rhetoric - since the summer of 2015 he has been making a pitch to Islamic-Turkish nationalism whereas prior to that he seemed to be trying to attract Kurdish support. Erdogan's speechifying is full of emotional manipulation and far-fetched claims.

    Prior to his rapprochement with Russia, he made numerous attacks on the Russians as being accomplices of the "criminal Assad", and it can be argued that he and his acolytes helped whip up the climate in which the Russian ambassador Karlov was gunned down last December. Then he had the gall to complain about "provocational statements" when no less a person than Recep Tayyip Erdogan was responsible for a good many of them.

    The interesting thing for me that never in my now long life I saw a madman take control of a country and a people.
    Of course one can suppose that more present day politicians are crazy, especially in Brussels, Verhofstadt seems the most crazy, but it is not as obvious.
    If Merkel is a psychiatric case, it may well be, Kohl said so already around 2002, she wants ‘to change Germany forever’, one may also think that Hollande is far from any reality, as were, before the elections, our Dutch socialist politicians, but the rants of Erdogan are very special.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    The novel The Manchurian Candidate by Richard Condon has the chief brainwasher Yen Lo making these fascinating comments in a lecture: "With their dedicated sense of personal mission... with their innate ability to falsify hampering conditions of the past to prevent unwanted distortion of the future, with that relentless, protective cunning that places the whole world, in revolving turn, into position as their enemies, paranoiacs simply had to be placed in the elite stock of any leader pool." Frankly, this is Erdogan he is talking about.
  31. @Jason Liu
    Why should Turkey be democratic in the first place? Ataturk was wrong. It's not in their culture or history, probably for good reason.

    There is actually much to be learned from Turkish style nationalism, especially how they deal with leftists. If European leaders were anything like Erdogan, they wouldn't have their migrant/diversity crisis. Letting cosmopolitan urbanites decide the fate of a nation is essentially national suicide.

    Turkey has a huge migrant/diversity crisis – three million Syrian refugees. There are clashes on an almost weekly basis between them now and indigenous Turks in southern Turkish cities like Mersin and Adana.
    I suppose European leaders are not like Erdogan because they do not see Adenoid Hynkel as an appropriate role model.

    Read More
  32. @Philip Giraldi
    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week...

    Of course, he would have been greatly encouraged in his decision to let loose on Syria by the axis of mayhem, Israel, the US, and the Saudis.

    The word “cakewalk” would have featured prominently in the back room consultations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @chris
    This would definitely have been a coordinated effort between the 3 conspirators, as alluded to in Biden's famous quote where he disingenuously laments the channeling of money and weapons from "our allies" into the hands of Alqueda, Alnusra, etc.

    And when I refer to the 3 conspirators, then the plan cannot ever have come from DC; we're just the muscle in this organization, the brains and big plans must, by necessity come from the ex-furniture salesman, Bibi. It would be inconceivable that any plans in his back yard would be laid out by some stupid goy.
  33. Or FDR, Eugene Doubs died in prison for unamerican activities.

    True, and that despite the fact, (if remember correctly), that none other than Eleanor Roosevelt lobbied to get him freed.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    If you mean Eugene Debs, he died in 1926. He was released under Harding, who to his credit was less into persecuting dissent than Wilson had been.
  34. @chris
    Of course, he would have been greatly encouraged in his decision to let loose on Syria by the axis of mayhem, Israel, the US, and the Saudis.

    The word "cakewalk" would have featured prominently in the back room consultations.

    This would definitely have been a coordinated effort between the 3 conspirators, as alluded to in Biden’s famous quote where he disingenuously laments the channeling of money and weapons from “our allies” into the hands of Alqueda, Alnusra, etc.

    And when I refer to the 3 conspirators, then the plan cannot ever have come from DC; we’re just the muscle in this organization, the brains and big plans must, by necessity come from the ex-furniture salesman, Bibi. It would be inconceivable that any plans in his back yard would be laid out by some stupid goy.

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  35. @Philip Giraldi
    Perhaps Anonymous needs another website to vent his spleen on. You know nothing about me and what my "past job" entailed. If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.

    While I, for what little it’s worth, appreciate your presence here and many of the views you express, and while I am annoyed by those who troll these pages with baseless opinions, may I suggest that the “anonymous” to whom you are responding made some good points and asked some excellent questions and I would expect of man of your experience and professionalism to make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    By doing that, at a minimum, you could no doubt provide some worthwhile insights while burnishing your image.

    In the unlikely case you give a bleep, writing him off as a one merely venting his spleen probably isn’t the sort of reply that will gain you much respect, and certainly doesn’t address any of his legitimate concerns in a valid manner.

    If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.

    It probably isn’t the fact that you and “our”country exist that gives some of us so much heartburn, but what most of the “leaders” have always done, but I suspect you already know that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Would you care to articulate in plain unambiguous words what "good points" and "excellent questions" you think justify your demanding answers from PG. I can see none.
    , @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Jacques. Perhaps you failed to note how personally offensive Anonymous (not anonymous) was? There is no room for that here or anywhere else.
    , @Rurik

    make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.
     
    I have to agree with PG here, because the questions were certainly not asked 'somewhat respectfully'

    the commenter suggests that every person who ever worked for the CIA is complicit with the evil things the CIA is notorious for. I can't accept that, since I suspect that most CIA personnel are not privy to the really nasty things some of them at the top do - like assassinating a personal hero of mine- Dr. Udo Ulfkotte.

    or Gary Webb

    or Michael Hastings...

    or running a heroin trafficking operation out of Afghanistan

    or so many other things, like the chemical attacks in Syria or the JFK assassination or 9/11

    but if someone would ask Mr. Giraldi in a respectful way to expound on these things, (if he hasn't already), then that would, I suspect, make for some very intriguing reading

  36. @Kiza
    I wonder why Mr Giraldi tends to attract all these regular unz fools (Mao and Z-man) and trolls to his articles. For some reason these two categories are so keen to put a comment up under his articles. In the past, I thought it was only the Hasbara trolls that he seemed to attract, now the Erdogan trolls feel invited as well. Total pollution.

    Great question Duglarri, I hope Mr Giraldi answers.

    All Unz commenters in good faith appreciate Mr. Giraldi’s writing

    He only replies to comments that are revelant and opposed.

    Steve Sailer, Anatoly. Ilana Mercer, a few others reply to us BTL proles.

    Ilana has stopped, because people (including me, once) ask about the clear contradiction between her father’s role in what she rails against and what she rails against.

    Most never reply to a comment, no matter how pertinent the comment.

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  37. Expel Turkey from NATO, invite Russia to join.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Marine le Pen is attacked by a USA interviewer for lending money from a Hungarian Russian bank, despite the fact that no French bank would lend her money.
    NATO is not for defense, it is for aggression, expanding the USA empire.
    , @L.K
    No. NATO must be dismantled, as it should have been after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
    NATO is merely a tool for ZUSA's imperialism.
    It must END.
    , @chris
    Good idea in principle but how about exchanging us with Russia?

    Best solution of all, as stated by the other commentator, is to just take it behind the barn, and ... putting it out of our misery.
  38. @Randal

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.
     
    Spot on, imo.

    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    The problem is, what should be done about it? At least half of Turkey supports Erdogan's system, quite enthusiastically so. Obviously all of this is very bad for secular people and for minorities like Alevis, but apart from maybe offering asylum to émigrés if (or when?) Erdogan gets really into persecution mode, the West probably can't do that much...given how nationalist many Turks are, any outside interference will lead to a massive backlash.
    , @Anon

    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness
     
    As opposed to what? Modern Enlightenment "authentic" autocratic Turkishness?
    , @Randal

    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?
     
    I find fault with the idea that we are entitled to interfere in the governance of a foreign nation.

    I find fault with plenty of things about how many countries are run internally, but the only ones I allow myself to believe I'm entitled to interfere in are my own, those with whom my country is unhealthily closely entangled (such as the US, and the EU regions), and those that might constitute a real, imminent and serious threat to my own country (of which there are none today).

    people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?
     
    First, Turks are not Europeans and never will be, so long as they remain Turks.

    Second, there is no such thing as a European citizenship and I fervently hope there never will be, or at least that if the currently threatened United States of Europe ever does come to pass, it doesn't subordinate my own country.

    Third, many of the consequences of the ideals you parade have been disastrous - the normalisation of homosexual activity, the ending of freedom of political association and freedom of speech under "antiracist" and "hate speech" provisions, the enablement of mass immigration and the suppression of resistance to it. If other nations see that and choose not to travel the same path, who can honestly blame them?
  39. @Randal

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.
     
    Spot on, imo.

    Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    Define romantic.

    Were Bolsheviks “romantic”? Was Trotsky?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Yes. As disciples of Marx they inherited through him the historical romanticism of Hegel, which in its Marxist-Leninist interpretation produced their worst crimes.
  40. @anonymous
    Erdogan's family was exposed as racketeering in stolen Syrian oil, buying it from ISIS and thus putting money in the coffers of the terrorists, the same terrorists everyone is supposedly fighting. Not much of an ally there. Wonder how many millions they've enriched themselves with by this. They've also been funneling jihadi fighters into the Syrian conflict as well as weaponizing so-called refugees against Europe. Again, not the actions of a friend.
    Is it the policy of the US to create a Kurdish state carved out of the countries in which they live? If so then that's opposed by all of the affected states and they'd try to thwart that, Turkey included. More likely the US is merely exploiting the Kurds as cannon-fodder and will drop them when no longer needed as has been done previously. As Kissinger explained, foreign policy isn't to be confused with missionary work.
    Ataturk tried to bring the country into the modern world. The gains are being eroded as Erdogan tries to return to a mythical glorious past that doesn't exist anymore. It being a member of NATO is an artifact of the cold war and may be outdated. Historically Turkey has been an enemy of Europe and the west and it being an "ally" can now be seen as a blip in time as it reverts back.

    Indeed the Kurds should be warned about the probability of being let down by the US. At least when the Brits let down friends in Aden they had pretty well been exhausted by successive wars and colonial insurgencies.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    The USA already let them down, after an insurrection against Saddam.
    Same with the Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq.
    Saddam took drastic measures, drained the unique swamps, now UNESCO I believe tries to re create them.
    Great country, the USA, in death and destruction.
    Thesiger described these Marsh Arabs.
  41. @jacques sheete
    While I, for what little it's worth, appreciate your presence here and many of the views you express, and while I am annoyed by those who troll these pages with baseless opinions, may I suggest that the "anonymous" to whom you are responding made some good points and asked some excellent questions and I would expect of man of your experience and professionalism to make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    By doing that, at a minimum, you could no doubt provide some worthwhile insights while burnishing your image.

    In the unlikely case you give a bleep, writing him off as a one merely venting his spleen probably isn't the sort of reply that will gain you much respect, and certainly doesn't address any of his legitimate concerns in a valid manner.


    If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.
     
    It probably isn't the fact that you and "our"country exist that gives some of us so much heartburn, but what most of the "leaders" have always done, but I suspect you already know that.

    Would you care to articulate in plain unambiguous words what “good points” and “excellent questions” you think justify your demanding answers from PG. I can see none.

    Read More
  42. @jacques sheete
    While I, for what little it's worth, appreciate your presence here and many of the views you express, and while I am annoyed by those who troll these pages with baseless opinions, may I suggest that the "anonymous" to whom you are responding made some good points and asked some excellent questions and I would expect of man of your experience and professionalism to make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    By doing that, at a minimum, you could no doubt provide some worthwhile insights while burnishing your image.

    In the unlikely case you give a bleep, writing him off as a one merely venting his spleen probably isn't the sort of reply that will gain you much respect, and certainly doesn't address any of his legitimate concerns in a valid manner.


    If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.
     
    It probably isn't the fact that you and "our"country exist that gives some of us so much heartburn, but what most of the "leaders" have always done, but I suspect you already know that.

    Thanks Jacques. Perhaps you failed to note how personally offensive Anonymous (not anonymous) was? There is no room for that here or anywhere else.

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  43. @jacques sheete

    Or FDR, Eugene Doubs died in prison for unamerican activities.
     
    True, and that despite the fact, (if remember correctly), that none other than Eleanor Roosevelt lobbied to get him freed.

    If you mean Eugene Debs, he died in 1926. He was released under Harding, who to his credit was less into persecuting dissent than Wilson had been.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    I may have written the name wrong, but he was a USA trade union leader opposed to war.
    In 1938, or 1939, he was condemned for un American activities, ten years in jail, where he died.
  44. @Kiza
    I look forward to your new article in the amconmag Mr Giraldi. The topic you promise to cover is one of the most interesting: what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria? They surely have not given up just because Assad has been defeating their proxy terrorists.

    Is it not ironic how US bombs Syrians and endangers the Russians and soon after Turkey bombs the Kurds and endangers the US troops? A kind of immediate cosmic payback.

    what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria?

    when I first started to research this issue, [specifically the war on Syria and Turkey's involvement], I discovered that the maps of Syria that I found on the net were noticeably different- in that some of them included what is called the Hatay Province, and some didn’t.

    The Hatay is a very nice piece of real estate right on the Med that has always been historically Syrian going back to antiquity even before the days of Alexander the Great and continuing thought the Ottoman Empire, but it seems that during a French occupation and colonial treachery revolving around WWII, it was handed to Turkey in a fixed ‘referendum’ that Syria never recognized and doesn’t even today. Kind of like England handing Palestine away for reasons of imperial expedience.

    Anyways this is a map of Syria that shows Syria intact.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/syrian/Map.gif

    they’re increasingly rare when surfing the net from the West.

    here’s a more typical map that shows the province carved off

    http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/asia/Syria-physical-map.gif

    a sugar coated Western version that claims it’s Turkish territory

    http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hatay_Province

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    Israel obviously wants the Golan, and anything else it can steal. Turkey wants to have the Hatay as undisputed territory, and anything else it can steal on its Southern borders.

    the Saudis want to destroy all non-Wahhabi regimes that threaten its uber-corrupt domination from the eastern regions of the greater Levant and ‘put it to’ its rival Iran by destroying an Iranian ally.

    The ZUSA (congressional whores and sadly, the potus) just wants to pander to Israel in any way, shape or form that it can.

    It tomorrow, somehow it was members of the Alawite sect who suddenly controlled the Federal Reserve Bank and consequently our media and institutions, then the ‘A’USA would immediately demand that Israel get out of the Golan and the occupied territories and Turkey get out of the Hatay and Kurdistan would find its border secure by NATO and there’d be peace.

    But they don’t. And the US congress being perfect whore$, it’s Syria that is being carved apart. (or was until Vlad put a stop to the brazen rapine)

    I think you and most people know all of this, but I’m just chiming in here point out the obvious I guess.

    Read More
    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    DESTABILISATION
    , @Rurik
    oops, my map of Syria intact didn't work

    here's one that shows Syria with the Hatay province carved off, and one with Syria intact

    (I hope this one works ; )

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vd1k5R2x_ms/S1jRGogCeCI/AAAAAAAAAuI/Q4OgXSOVkYg/s400/twosyrias.jpg
    , @Rurik

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.
     
    not that it needs saying, because everyone here already knows it..

    but just for the record, what is not said but understood by all, is that..

    the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth...

    ... *and* see her reduced to smoking rubble and a dystopian hell on earth of misery and stone age tribalism for generations to come, just like Libya or Iraq or everywhere else the Fiend has left the smell of sulfur in the air. And to use Syria as a stepping stone to do the same to Iran and eventually Russia...

    I was just assuming everyone here already knows all of that, but I figured I'd just mention it for the record.

    ;)
  45. @John Gruskos
    Expel Turkey from NATO, invite Russia to join.

    Marine le Pen is attacked by a USA interviewer for lending money from a Hungarian Russian bank, despite the fact that no French bank would lend her money.
    NATO is not for defense, it is for aggression, expanding the USA empire.

    Read More
  46. Washington recently tried to kill Erdogan and it is now clear that the EU doesn’t want him. Erdogan is Putin’s problem now. That Turkey remains in NATO demonstrates that the alliance is a fraud. Trump kissing Erdogan’s ass wont change anything. Both men are nuts and neither can be trusted.

    Read More
  47. @jilles dykstra
    The interesting thing for me that never in my now long life I saw a madman take control of a country and a people.
    Of course one can suppose that more present day politicians are crazy, especially in Brussels, Verhofstadt seems the most crazy, but it is not as obvious.
    If Merkel is a psychiatric case, it may well be, Kohl said so already around 2002, she wants 'to change Germany forever', one may also think that Hollande is far from any reality, as were, before the elections, our Dutch socialist politicians, but the rants of Erdogan are very special.

    The novel The Manchurian Candidate by Richard Condon has the chief brainwasher Yen Lo making these fascinating comments in a lecture: “With their dedicated sense of personal mission… with their innate ability to falsify hampering conditions of the past to prevent unwanted distortion of the future, with that relentless, protective cunning that places the whole world, in revolving turn, into position as their enemies, paranoiacs simply had to be placed in the elite stock of any leader pool.” Frankly, this is Erdogan he is talking about.

    Read More
  48. @Uebersetzer
    If you mean Eugene Debs, he died in 1926. He was released under Harding, who to his credit was less into persecuting dissent than Wilson had been.

    I may have written the name wrong, but he was a USA trade union leader opposed to war.
    In 1938, or 1939, he was condemned for un American activities, ten years in jail, where he died.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Doesn't sound like anyone I have heard of, if it isn't the Socialist Eugene Debs who died in 1926.
  49. @Wizard of Oz
    Indeed the Kurds should be warned about the probability of being let down by the US. At least when the Brits let down friends in Aden they had pretty well been exhausted by successive wars and colonial insurgencies.

    The USA already let them down, after an insurrection against Saddam.
    Same with the Marsh Arabs in the south of Iraq.
    Saddam took drastic measures, drained the unique swamps, now UNESCO I believe tries to re create them.
    Great country, the USA, in death and destruction.
    Thesiger described these Marsh Arabs.

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  50. @Rurik

    what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria?
     
    when I first started to research this issue, [specifically the war on Syria and Turkey's involvement], I discovered that the maps of Syria that I found on the net were noticeably different- in that some of them included what is called the Hatay Province, and some didn't.

    The Hatay is a very nice piece of real estate right on the Med that has always been historically Syrian going back to antiquity even before the days of Alexander the Great and continuing thought the Ottoman Empire, but it seems that during a French occupation and colonial treachery revolving around WWII, it was handed to Turkey in a fixed 'referendum' that Syria never recognized and doesn't even today. Kind of like England handing Palestine away for reasons of imperial expedience.

    Anyways this is a map of Syria that shows Syria intact.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/syrian/Map.gif

    they're increasingly rare when surfing the net from the West.

    here's a more typical map that shows the province carved off

    http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/asia/Syria-physical-map.gif

    a sugar coated Western version that claims it's Turkish territory

    http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hatay_Province

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    Israel obviously wants the Golan, and anything else it can steal. Turkey wants to have the Hatay as undisputed territory, and anything else it can steal on its Southern borders.

    the Saudis want to destroy all non-Wahhabi regimes that threaten its uber-corrupt domination from the eastern regions of the greater Levant and 'put it to' its rival Iran by destroying an Iranian ally.

    The ZUSA (congressional whores and sadly, the potus) just wants to pander to Israel in any way, shape or form that it can.

    It tomorrow, somehow it was members of the Alawite sect who suddenly controlled the Federal Reserve Bank and consequently our media and institutions, then the 'A'USA would immediately demand that Israel get out of the Golan and the occupied territories and Turkey get out of the Hatay and Kurdistan would find its border secure by NATO and there'd be peace.

    But they don't. And the US congress being perfect whore$, it's Syria that is being carved apart. (or was until Vlad put a stop to the brazen rapine)

    I think you and most people know all of this, but I'm just chiming in here point out the obvious I guess.

    DESTABILISATION

    Read More
  51. Erdogan has done a great job of crushing the forces of modernity and Globalism in Turkey.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Umm, you do know though that Erdogan is quite anti-Jewish and anti-Israel? He even invited Hamas delegates to some AKP party conference a few years ago. I don't think you should regard Erdogan's "anti-globalism" (it isn't really, he's just in favour of a different form of globalism...) as being in your interests.
  52. The first place to go with Turkey is to understand its role in the false flag chemical weapons attack at East Ghouta back in 2013. According to Turkish MPs Ali Seker, and Eren Erdem, the sarin gas was supplied to Syrian militants by Turkish interests:

    Two Turkish lawmakers from the Republican People’s Party (CHP) have provided documents showing that the ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) was linked to the use of chemical agents by militants operating in Syria, Press TV reports.
    [...]
    Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a key member of the AKP and then prime minister, claimed at the time that the chemical attacks in Syria were carried out by the government. The recent revelations, however, show that chemical materials may have been transferred to the militants with the knowledge of the AKP leaders.

    http://www.presstv.com/DetailFa/2015/10/27/435215/Turkey-lawmakers-CHP-Syria-sarin-gas

    “Turkey had evidently armed the al-Nusra front with sarin gas. In June 2013, there was an investigation by the US intelligence services, which you can read, that clearly says, ‘we know that Turkey has equipped the al-Nusra front and other groups with sarin gas and they are producing sarin gas themselves.’”

    Lueders told viewers that Turkish journalists including the former editor of Cumhuriyet Can Dundar, who is currently exiled in Germany, had reported the weapons deliveries. “All journalists in Turkey who have reported about this are either in prison or in exile,” he said.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2017/04/09/russia-attack-a-false-flag/

    So much for the myth that the various U.S. intelligence and security services never do anything good.

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  53. @John Gruskos
    Expel Turkey from NATO, invite Russia to join.

    No. NATO must be dismantled, as it should have been after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
    NATO is merely a tool for ZUSA’s imperialism.
    It must END.

    Read More
  54. @jilles dykstra
    I may have written the name wrong, but he was a USA trade union leader opposed to war.
    In 1938, or 1939, he was condemned for un American activities, ten years in jail, where he died.

    Doesn’t sound like anyone I have heard of, if it isn’t the Socialist Eugene Debs who died in 1926.

    Read More
  55. Uhhh…is anybody paying attention to what’s happening in Macedonia?

    Things are really coming to a head there:

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-a-country-descending-into-lawlessness-05-02-2017

    I can see it being a match that lights things up; you’ve got a 60%+ Macedonian (Christian), 25%+ Albanian (Muslim) mix and ethnic nationalists are attacking the elected government that chose an Albanian as its head.

    Those Balkan areas are just powder kegs.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    No new thing under the sun. The PTB have been pursuing a Balkanization strategy in the Balkans for about 25 years now, just as they have been doing in the middle east. Like Montenegro and Serbia, Macedonia has refused to apply for NATO membership, so they have been slated for destruction by Washington and Brussels?
  56. @Rurik

    what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria?
     
    when I first started to research this issue, [specifically the war on Syria and Turkey's involvement], I discovered that the maps of Syria that I found on the net were noticeably different- in that some of them included what is called the Hatay Province, and some didn't.

    The Hatay is a very nice piece of real estate right on the Med that has always been historically Syrian going back to antiquity even before the days of Alexander the Great and continuing thought the Ottoman Empire, but it seems that during a French occupation and colonial treachery revolving around WWII, it was handed to Turkey in a fixed 'referendum' that Syria never recognized and doesn't even today. Kind of like England handing Palestine away for reasons of imperial expedience.

    Anyways this is a map of Syria that shows Syria intact.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/syrian/Map.gif

    they're increasingly rare when surfing the net from the West.

    here's a more typical map that shows the province carved off

    http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/asia/Syria-physical-map.gif

    a sugar coated Western version that claims it's Turkish territory

    http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hatay_Province

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    Israel obviously wants the Golan, and anything else it can steal. Turkey wants to have the Hatay as undisputed territory, and anything else it can steal on its Southern borders.

    the Saudis want to destroy all non-Wahhabi regimes that threaten its uber-corrupt domination from the eastern regions of the greater Levant and 'put it to' its rival Iran by destroying an Iranian ally.

    The ZUSA (congressional whores and sadly, the potus) just wants to pander to Israel in any way, shape or form that it can.

    It tomorrow, somehow it was members of the Alawite sect who suddenly controlled the Federal Reserve Bank and consequently our media and institutions, then the 'A'USA would immediately demand that Israel get out of the Golan and the occupied territories and Turkey get out of the Hatay and Kurdistan would find its border secure by NATO and there'd be peace.

    But they don't. And the US congress being perfect whore$, it's Syria that is being carved apart. (or was until Vlad put a stop to the brazen rapine)

    I think you and most people know all of this, but I'm just chiming in here point out the obvious I guess.

    oops, my map of Syria intact didn’t work

    here’s one that shows Syria with the Hatay province carved off, and one with Syria intact

    (I hope this one works ; )

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_vd1k5R2x_ms/S1jRGogCeCI/AAAAAAAAAuI/Q4OgXSOVkYg/s400/twosyrias.jpg

    Read More
  57. @Cato
    In the same way that the ancestors bent before the will of Kemal Ataturk, so will the current generation bend before Tayyip Erdogan. And why is that so bad? He is the champion of the periphery, just like Marine Le Pen, and perhaps like Trump [was]. The periphery must be included for a nation to remain a nation. Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    Hey Cato,

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic.

    Being a traditional Muslim, I’m all for this and think we should stay the hell out, but I have two particular concerns:
    1) I hope extremists vigilantes or mobs are not allowed free reign to oppress minorities
    2) That this consolidation of power was not done by principle and rule of law, but by manipulation and heavy handedness

    This is exactly what I despised about the secular nationalists under Attaturk, so why should I approve it now simply because an Islam-oriented government does it. Simply due to a change of hats/turbans?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @truthtellerAryan
    Hi Talha,
    Totally agree, one oppressor (secular), replaced by another (supposedly pious), with the same vengeance against the original native people of the land (Kurds), while hoarding as much power as the previous thugs. The cowards in the west have their lips sealed. A bully can only go after the weak and defenseless (remember bullies in primary schools). One is a dictator (not our puppet), and the other one is an ally (our puppet). Hypocrites!!!
  58. Realistically speaking, not much we can do about what Erdogan does within Turkish borders, at least without neocon nuttery that always just makes things worse, whatever you think of Erdogan and his policies. Sorry, Kemalists, Ataturk’s legacy was fun while it lasted, but the last couple of years have made quite clear that the AKP now dominates the state bureaucracy and the lower levels of the military: not much to be done about that. For the forseeable future, Turkey is going to be looking to the Ottomans (who Erdogan has invoked in speeches) for inspiration, not Ataturk. Learning to live with Erdogan doesn’t mean, however, that you invite him into the EU. It would be kind of nice if we didn’t have EU leaders openly encouraging the Turks in Europe not to assimilate. However, Erdogan is going to use Merkel’s migrant folly to his advantage…

    Would also be quite nice if we stopped cooperating with his ambitions-and that of the Sauds-in Syria. Beltway policy toward Turkey is either stuck in the 1970s-Pentagon, the GOP, etc-or you had people like Obama who actually favored the new Ankara over saner, more secular alternatives. Our policy in Syria can in part be blamed upon Obama’s thinking in 2012, prompted by the young idealists of his White House, that the Muslim Brotherhood/Erdogan axis was the wave of the future and their course in Syria in our best interests. That immediately collapsed the following year after the coup in Cairo, but by that point, the pissing contest with Putin had already started.

    The commenters upthread on how European Turks are very pro-Erdogan: definitely agree. They tended to originate from the Anatolian hinterland where Erdogan’s support stems from. If you walk through certain sections of Berlin or Frankfurt, you will constantly see Turkish flags and AKP posters. Interestingly enough, the more secular Turks in the western extremes of the country tend to really despise their exports to Europe, often in outright racial terms-”dark Turks”, they call them-and decline identification with them. The truly amazing story is that it took so long for the parts of Turkey away from Istanbul and the Greek islands so long to assert themselves against the Kemalist establishment, considering the numbers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Laugh Track

    Sorry, Kemalists, Ataturk’s legacy was fun while it lasted, but the last couple of years have made quite clear that the AKP now dominates the state bureaucracy and the lower levels of the military: not much to be done about that. For the forseeable future, Turkey is going to be looking to the Ottomans (who Erdogan has invoked in speeches) for inspiration, not Ataturk.
     
    Seems to me that Erdogan, who is crazy like a fox, has taken the Turkish nationalism that Ataturk drummed-in and simply flipped it on its head. Under Kemalism it was a secular nationalism with the Turkish flag on the wall next to portraits of Ataturk. Now under AKP Islamism, it is the Turkish flag on the wall next to portraits of Erdogan. Until the AKP took power, the flag represented secular "modern" Turkey. Now it represents religious conservative Turkey. Or so it seems to me.
    , @Uebersetzer
    "European Turks" are not overwhelmingly for Erdogan - the referendum suggested, for example, that the "Turkish" diaspora in Britain that voted was 80% No. Alevis are disproportionately prone to emigrate, and this has long been the case - it has something to do with their vulnerable status in Turkey, which was the case even before Erdogan. They usually voted No in the referendum.
    Even though Yes was in front among those in Germany, there are enough Erdogan opponents to mean that the German state's fears about violent clashes within the huge diaspora in Germany have a basis in reality.
  59. @Talha
    Uhhh...is anybody paying attention to what's happening in Macedonia?

    Things are really coming to a head there:
    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-a-country-descending-into-lawlessness-05-02-2017

    I can see it being a match that lights things up; you've got a 60%+ Macedonian (Christian), 25%+ Albanian (Muslim) mix and ethnic nationalists are attacking the elected government that chose an Albanian as its head.

    Those Balkan areas are just powder kegs.

    Peace.

    No new thing under the sun. The PTB have been pursuing a Balkanization strategy in the Balkans for about 25 years now, just as they have been doing in the middle east. Like Montenegro and Serbia, Macedonia has refused to apply for NATO membership, so they have been slated for destruction by Washington and Brussels?

    Read More
  60. Good comment, I agree with most of it. Erdogan’s clearly a dangerous megalomaniac who’s intent on creating an autocratic system and has played a destabilizing role in the region with his support for Islamists. He’s also made his hostile intentions towards Europe very clear. There isn’t really much of a basis for partnership or alliance with Turkey under those conditions. But the EU probably won’t take strong measures because Erdogan will threaten to unleash a new refugee wave, and Merkel’s Germany has shown before that blackmail works for Turkey.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    A new immigration wave will be the end of the EU, each state closing its borders.
  61. @John Gruskos
    Expel Turkey from NATO, invite Russia to join.

    Good idea in principle but how about exchanging us with Russia?

    Best solution of all, as stated by the other commentator, is to just take it behind the barn, and … putting it out of our misery.

    Read More
  62. @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan seems to think he will get on better with Trump than with Obama (Erdogan is conveniently forgetting Trump's appeals to anti-Islam feeling). It is true that Trump and Erdogan are both demagogic blowhards with rather similar personalities. Whether this will be enough to ensure a beautiful relationship is doubtful.

    Trump’s foreign policy hasn’t really shown any clear, general “anti-Islam” direction so far…many people around him are obsessed with Iran, but there’s no talk of a general clash with Islam. The US has even escalated its support for Saudi-Arabia’s war in Yemen, despite Saudi-Arabia being one of the most important centres of Sunni extremism.

    Read More
  63. @Wizard of Oz
    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment "authentic" autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    The problem is, what should be done about it? At least half of Turkey supports Erdogan’s system, quite enthusiastically so. Obviously all of this is very bad for secular people and for minorities like Alevis, but apart from maybe offering asylum to émigrés if (or when?) Erdogan gets really into persecution mode, the West probably can’t do that much…given how nationalist many Turks are, any outside interference will lead to a massive backlash.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees? At least a quarter of those persecuted by Erdogan ought to fit into our societies well enough. That would be good practice for looking after Egypt's Copts.
  64. @Greasy William
    Erdogan has done a great job of crushing the forces of modernity and Globalism in Turkey.

    Umm, you do know though that Erdogan is quite anti-Jewish and anti-Israel? He even invited Hamas delegates to some AKP party conference a few years ago. I don’t think you should regard Erdogan’s “anti-globalism” (it isn’t really, he’s just in favour of a different form of globalism…) as being in your interests.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William
    1. Erdogan isn't really anti Jewish, and he is actually less anti Israel than the secular Turks.

    2. Turkey's policies towards the Jews and Israel have no effect in the great scheme of things, but as a psuedo Western country, Turkey does have an impact on Western culture. If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.
  65. anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Cato
    In the same way that the ancestors bent before the will of Kemal Ataturk, so will the current generation bend before Tayyip Erdogan. And why is that so bad? He is the champion of the periphery, just like Marine Le Pen, and perhaps like Trump [was]. The periphery must be included for a nation to remain a nation. Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic. Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.

    “Turkey will become a little less European”.

    Turkey was never a European country. Its return to despotism is consistent with being an Islamic country.

    Read More
  66. Erdogan is a strong counterweight to the Iranian regime. They will come to blows eventually.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    'Erdogan is a strong counterweight to the Iranian regime. They will come to blows eventually'
    So hopes zionist shill, naro!
    Always hoping others will fight your wars for you, eh?
    Like ZUSA in Iraq and the takfiri mercenaries in Syria...
  67. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Wizard of Oz
    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment "authentic" autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness

    As opposed to what? Modern Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness?

    Read More
  68. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @SolontoCroesus

    Only the neocons, with their romantic notions of governance, could possibly find fault with this.
     
    Define romantic.

    Were Bolsheviks "romantic"? Was Trotsky?

    Yes. As disciples of Marx they inherited through him the historical romanticism of Hegel, which in its Marxist-Leninist interpretation produced their worst crimes.

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  69. @nebulafox
    Realistically speaking, not much we can do about what Erdogan does within Turkish borders, at least without neocon nuttery that always just makes things worse, whatever you think of Erdogan and his policies. Sorry, Kemalists, Ataturk's legacy was fun while it lasted, but the last couple of years have made quite clear that the AKP now dominates the state bureaucracy and the lower levels of the military: not much to be done about that. For the forseeable future, Turkey is going to be looking to the Ottomans (who Erdogan has invoked in speeches) for inspiration, not Ataturk. Learning to live with Erdogan doesn't mean, however, that you invite him into the EU. It would be kind of nice if we didn't have EU leaders openly encouraging the Turks in Europe not to assimilate. However, Erdogan is going to use Merkel's migrant folly to his advantage...

    Would also be quite nice if we stopped cooperating with his ambitions-and that of the Sauds-in Syria. Beltway policy toward Turkey is either stuck in the 1970s-Pentagon, the GOP, etc-or you had people like Obama who actually favored the new Ankara over saner, more secular alternatives. Our policy in Syria can in part be blamed upon Obama's thinking in 2012, prompted by the young idealists of his White House, that the Muslim Brotherhood/Erdogan axis was the wave of the future and their course in Syria in our best interests. That immediately collapsed the following year after the coup in Cairo, but by that point, the pissing contest with Putin had already started.

    The commenters upthread on how European Turks are very pro-Erdogan: definitely agree. They tended to originate from the Anatolian hinterland where Erdogan's support stems from. If you walk through certain sections of Berlin or Frankfurt, you will constantly see Turkish flags and AKP posters. Interestingly enough, the more secular Turks in the western extremes of the country tend to really despise their exports to Europe, often in outright racial terms-"dark Turks", they call them-and decline identification with them. The truly amazing story is that it took so long for the parts of Turkey away from Istanbul and the Greek islands so long to assert themselves against the Kemalist establishment, considering the numbers.

    Sorry, Kemalists, Ataturk’s legacy was fun while it lasted, but the last couple of years have made quite clear that the AKP now dominates the state bureaucracy and the lower levels of the military: not much to be done about that. For the forseeable future, Turkey is going to be looking to the Ottomans (who Erdogan has invoked in speeches) for inspiration, not Ataturk.

    Seems to me that Erdogan, who is crazy like a fox, has taken the Turkish nationalism that Ataturk drummed-in and simply flipped it on its head. Under Kemalism it was a secular nationalism with the Turkish flag on the wall next to portraits of Ataturk. Now under AKP Islamism, it is the Turkish flag on the wall next to portraits of Erdogan. Until the AKP took power, the flag represented secular “modern” Turkey. Now it represents religious conservative Turkey. Or so it seems to me.

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  70. I am a great admirer of the Turkish people and it is unfortunately true that quite ordinary Turks will inevitably be the ones who will pay the price most in the “new Turkey” of Erdogan.

    The thing is, a great many “ordinary Turks”, likely a majority, SUPPORT Erdogan. Evidently, they DO NOT want democracy. So it may be the case that “ordinary Turks” get the government they deserve, good or bad.

    P.S. Turkey has never been European. It merely had European possessions.

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  71. Perhaps the biggest change the AKP and Erdogan have brought since 2002 to Turkey has been moving Turkey away from a secular state pretending to be European back to its roots which are a mixture of Turkic and Persian culture combined with Islam. A move which I think is correct, Turkey is not and never will be a European nation, whatever secular Turks may think, the culture and heritage of Turkey is West Asian entirely, no nation whose primary religion is Islam and whose dominant culture came from Central Asia and was then infused with Persian and Arabic influences can be European, this just a fantasy certain liberals both within and without have held of Turkey for too long, hopefully they will be disabused of this view in the coming years.

    Also, whatever one may think of Erdogan’s politics, he is the first Turkish leader under which Turkey has seen real economic convergence with the west, of course all the credit cannot go to him, but some must, Turkey’s GDP per capita was stuck at around 30% of US levels from the 1920′s until 2000, all the westernizing secular governments failed to achieve any economic convergence whatsoever, under Erdogan however, Turkey’s GDP per capita by 2016 had risen to 43% of US levels on a PPP basis.

    Turkey’s GDP per capita as a % of America in PPP terms, data from the IMF:
    1980: 29%
    1990: 31%
    2000: 29%
    2016: 43%

    Turkey’s GDP per capita as of 2016 is around $25,000 higher then nations like Chile and only 5 – 10% below the level of nations like Poland and Russia, both of which are on the cusp of becoming fully developed nations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    The economic gains have been going into reverse in recent years. Something that has long held back Turkey is the huge military/security establishment, and some of the economic improvement was down to the early Erdogan years being relatively pacific, with declines in the armed forces establishment and good relations being pursued for a time with most neighbours. Also there have been huge building projects but these have depended on economic and political stability and good links to neighbours, things no longer guaranteed under Erdogan.
  72. @German_reader
    The problem is, what should be done about it? At least half of Turkey supports Erdogan's system, quite enthusiastically so. Obviously all of this is very bad for secular people and for minorities like Alevis, but apart from maybe offering asylum to émigrés if (or when?) Erdogan gets really into persecution mode, the West probably can't do that much...given how nationalist many Turks are, any outside interference will lead to a massive backlash.

    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees? At least a quarter of those persecuted by Erdogan ought to fit into our societies well enough. That would be good practice for looking after Egypt’s Copts.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    I can't say I'm looking forward to the prospect since I'm not a fan of mass immigration in general. On the other hand, the way things are going in Turkey, I can understand secular people, moderates etc. who want to get out of there, and this might actually be a case where asylum is justified.
    It's all very sad that it has come to this.
    , @jilles dykstra
    We do not want further destabilisation of our cultures.
    , @Rurik

    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees?
     
    http://beckyweltoncmp.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/stereotype-jew.gif
  73. @Wizard of Oz
    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees? At least a quarter of those persecuted by Erdogan ought to fit into our societies well enough. That would be good practice for looking after Egypt's Copts.

    I can’t say I’m looking forward to the prospect since I’m not a fan of mass immigration in general. On the other hand, the way things are going in Turkey, I can understand secular people, moderates etc. who want to get out of there, and this might actually be a case where asylum is justified.
    It’s all very sad that it has come to this.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Actually, numbers aside, some Turkish refugees from Erdogan might be good for European countries like the Huguenots in the 17th century and Jews in the 1930s in the UK.
  74. @German_reader
    I can't say I'm looking forward to the prospect since I'm not a fan of mass immigration in general. On the other hand, the way things are going in Turkey, I can understand secular people, moderates etc. who want to get out of there, and this might actually be a case where asylum is justified.
    It's all very sad that it has come to this.

    Actually, numbers aside, some Turkish refugees from Erdogan might be good for European countries like the Huguenots in the 17th century and Jews in the 1930s in the UK.

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Might be the case, at least they would know from personal experience that Islamism as a political programme is something to be feared and resisted.
    , @L.K
    LOL!
    Hey, shill, have you ever considered working as a clown for a circus?
  75. @nebulafox
    Realistically speaking, not much we can do about what Erdogan does within Turkish borders, at least without neocon nuttery that always just makes things worse, whatever you think of Erdogan and his policies. Sorry, Kemalists, Ataturk's legacy was fun while it lasted, but the last couple of years have made quite clear that the AKP now dominates the state bureaucracy and the lower levels of the military: not much to be done about that. For the forseeable future, Turkey is going to be looking to the Ottomans (who Erdogan has invoked in speeches) for inspiration, not Ataturk. Learning to live with Erdogan doesn't mean, however, that you invite him into the EU. It would be kind of nice if we didn't have EU leaders openly encouraging the Turks in Europe not to assimilate. However, Erdogan is going to use Merkel's migrant folly to his advantage...

    Would also be quite nice if we stopped cooperating with his ambitions-and that of the Sauds-in Syria. Beltway policy toward Turkey is either stuck in the 1970s-Pentagon, the GOP, etc-or you had people like Obama who actually favored the new Ankara over saner, more secular alternatives. Our policy in Syria can in part be blamed upon Obama's thinking in 2012, prompted by the young idealists of his White House, that the Muslim Brotherhood/Erdogan axis was the wave of the future and their course in Syria in our best interests. That immediately collapsed the following year after the coup in Cairo, but by that point, the pissing contest with Putin had already started.

    The commenters upthread on how European Turks are very pro-Erdogan: definitely agree. They tended to originate from the Anatolian hinterland where Erdogan's support stems from. If you walk through certain sections of Berlin or Frankfurt, you will constantly see Turkish flags and AKP posters. Interestingly enough, the more secular Turks in the western extremes of the country tend to really despise their exports to Europe, often in outright racial terms-"dark Turks", they call them-and decline identification with them. The truly amazing story is that it took so long for the parts of Turkey away from Istanbul and the Greek islands so long to assert themselves against the Kemalist establishment, considering the numbers.

    “European Turks” are not overwhelmingly for Erdogan – the referendum suggested, for example, that the “Turkish” diaspora in Britain that voted was 80% No. Alevis are disproportionately prone to emigrate, and this has long been the case – it has something to do with their vulnerable status in Turkey, which was the case even before Erdogan. They usually voted No in the referendum.
    Even though Yes was in front among those in Germany, there are enough Erdogan opponents to mean that the German state’s fears about violent clashes within the huge diaspora in Germany have a basis in reality.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    In the Netherlands about half voted for Erdogan, far too many in our view.
  76. @Annatar
    Perhaps the biggest change the AKP and Erdogan have brought since 2002 to Turkey has been moving Turkey away from a secular state pretending to be European back to its roots which are a mixture of Turkic and Persian culture combined with Islam. A move which I think is correct, Turkey is not and never will be a European nation, whatever secular Turks may think, the culture and heritage of Turkey is West Asian entirely, no nation whose primary religion is Islam and whose dominant culture came from Central Asia and was then infused with Persian and Arabic influences can be European, this just a fantasy certain liberals both within and without have held of Turkey for too long, hopefully they will be disabused of this view in the coming years.

    Also, whatever one may think of Erdogan's politics, he is the first Turkish leader under which Turkey has seen real economic convergence with the west, of course all the credit cannot go to him, but some must, Turkey's GDP per capita was stuck at around 30% of US levels from the 1920's until 2000, all the westernizing secular governments failed to achieve any economic convergence whatsoever, under Erdogan however, Turkey's GDP per capita by 2016 had risen to 43% of US levels on a PPP basis.

    Turkey's GDP per capita as a % of America in PPP terms, data from the IMF:
    1980: 29%
    1990: 31%
    2000: 29%
    2016: 43%

    Turkey's GDP per capita as of 2016 is around $25,000 higher then nations like Chile and only 5 - 10% below the level of nations like Poland and Russia, both of which are on the cusp of becoming fully developed nations.

    The economic gains have been going into reverse in recent years. Something that has long held back Turkey is the huge military/security establishment, and some of the economic improvement was down to the early Erdogan years being relatively pacific, with declines in the armed forces establishment and good relations being pursued for a time with most neighbours. Also there have been huge building projects but these have depended on economic and political stability and good links to neighbours, things no longer guaranteed under Erdogan.

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  77. […] “Where to Go with Turkey” (Giraldi).  The Zio-Americans and their minions won’t do anything, so it is up to the Turks themselves, probably through a military assassination. […]

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  78. @Uebersetzer
    "European Turks" are not overwhelmingly for Erdogan - the referendum suggested, for example, that the "Turkish" diaspora in Britain that voted was 80% No. Alevis are disproportionately prone to emigrate, and this has long been the case - it has something to do with their vulnerable status in Turkey, which was the case even before Erdogan. They usually voted No in the referendum.
    Even though Yes was in front among those in Germany, there are enough Erdogan opponents to mean that the German state's fears about violent clashes within the huge diaspora in Germany have a basis in reality.

    In the Netherlands about half voted for Erdogan, far too many in our view.

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  79. @Wizard of Oz
    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees? At least a quarter of those persecuted by Erdogan ought to fit into our societies well enough. That would be good practice for looking after Egypt's Copts.

    We do not want further destabilisation of our cultures.

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  80. @German_reader
    Good comment, I agree with most of it. Erdogan's clearly a dangerous megalomaniac who's intent on creating an autocratic system and has played a destabilizing role in the region with his support for Islamists. He's also made his hostile intentions towards Europe very clear. There isn't really much of a basis for partnership or alliance with Turkey under those conditions. But the EU probably won't take strong measures because Erdogan will threaten to unleash a new refugee wave, and Merkel's Germany has shown before that blackmail works for Turkey.

    A new immigration wave will be the end of the EU, each state closing its borders.

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  81. @German_reader
    Umm, you do know though that Erdogan is quite anti-Jewish and anti-Israel? He even invited Hamas delegates to some AKP party conference a few years ago. I don't think you should regard Erdogan's "anti-globalism" (it isn't really, he's just in favour of a different form of globalism...) as being in your interests.

    1. Erdogan isn’t really anti Jewish, and he is actually less anti Israel than the secular Turks.

    2. Turkey’s policies towards the Jews and Israel have no effect in the great scheme of things, but as a psuedo Western country, Turkey does have an impact on Western culture. If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.
     
    I don't really follow your logic here. Maybe there won't be gay pride parades in Berlin one day anymore (because Muslims have expelled all the gays from the city...young Muslim males like beating gays up)...but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners??? I can't see that...even most right-wingers find Erdogan pretty repellent.
    , @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan and his acolytes actually are anti-Semitic, but this does not necessarily mean anti-Israel. When there was a cold war with Israel (apparently), Turkish-Israeli trade actually increased. It is likely that Erdogan's somewhat paranoiac mind actually believes every word in The Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion (incidentally, a book I have actually seen included in book club lists in Turkey) but he may think that normalising relations with Israel will take some off the heat off.
    I think making money and not getting overthrown supersede every other motivation or belief Erdogan may have.
  82. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    “Ironically, in terms of European and American interests, it is the more cosmopolitan Turks who are most supportive of western values and democracy and it is they who will suffer most.”

    And what would these ‘western values’ be? Homomania that destroys lives of those who don’t bake ‘gay wedding cake’? Sticking homo symbols in churches? Teaching kids homo-propaganda in schools? Promotion of rap thug culture and jungle fever? Feminism that hates on men, and men being reduced to a bunch of pansies? Using PC to colonize minds? Colleges overrun with PC? Journalists as pressitutes of the War Lobby? Did you see Brian Williams waxing poetic about those ‘beautiful’ missiles. So much for democratic media.

    I loathe Erdogan who is megalomaniacal and sticking his nose into other nations all the time. Also, it is true that he is undermining democracy. But what does it mean to be ‘democratic’ in the 21st century? To have leaders like Justin Trudeau, Macron, Merkel, and that globalist turd in Austria? Is democratic Sweden better off than Turkey? If democracy leads to current Sweden, who needs it? And what kind of democracy does the US have? What kind of free press does it have? People elected Trump the nationalist but the Deep State got to him and he’s now just another globo-cuck. So much for democracy.

    I’m not defending Erdogan or current Turkey, and I think things look pretty dire. But if the alternative is ‘western values’ and emulating current West, I don’t see Erdoganism as worse.
    It’s bad but anything that fends of current Western Decadence is a good.

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    • Agree: Annatar, Randal
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    It's one thing to point to problems in "democracies" that make one consider why we call them democracies or that the essentials or essential virtues of dempocracy are, and one can point, for example at colonial Hong Kong as showing that rule of law and democracy are not the same thing.... But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric? (And amazingly I see Agrees from some who must have ovetlooked most of the excess). I see that you hate the globalists and I can see how the globalism which - at least in the short term - benefits the rich and has led to support for Brexit, Trump and Le Pen but what has that got to do with Sweden, softheaded as it is about what kind of refugees can fit into Swedish society?
  83. I’m not defending Erdogan or the current situation in Turkey, and I think things look pretty dire. But if the alternative is ‘western values’ and emulating ‘the’ current West, I don’t see Erdoganism as worse.
    It’s bad but anything that fends off ‘the Jew run’ Western Decadence ‘of today’ is a good ‘thing’.

    That pretty much ends this debate.

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  84. @Mao Cheng Ji
    Whoa, you sound like you don't like Mr Erdogan much.

    Some have compared today’s Turkey to an “open air prison.”
     
    Sure. But 'some' always say all kinds of things.

    Even some Kurdish parts of Turkey apparently and mysteriously wound up with large numbers of votes for Erdogan, the man who has called them terrorists...
     
    I'm not an expert in all things Erdogan, but I would be very much surprised if he called all Kurds terrorists... Also, to assume that all Turkish Kurds must vote the same way seems very patronizing and a bit prejudiced. I imagine there must be a fair number of Kurds who prefer stability over turmoil.

    Erdogan has deliberately and cynically destroyed democracy in Turkey.
     
    But 'democracy' is only possible where the society is stable, and all its major groups are willing to compromise. Without these preconditions, 'democracy' is likely to exacerbate the problems, and lead to chaos...

    https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/05/03/aggravated-life-sentence-sought-for-comedian-jailed-over-gulen-links/

    This kind of thing doesn’t really improve “security” in Turkey, it merely spreads the pall of fear that is one of the main attributes of a tyranny.
    Erdogan is of course Turkey’s greatest comedian and may be mobilising the judicial system to persecute potential challengers to the title.

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  85. My list was too short, the Derb will always reply to a sane comment, and is a pleasant correspondent, Rabid Khan would always reply with abuse, but he did react, not that I ever bothered him.

    His nasty replies were frequently justified by the commentor being a moron, but not always so.

    Thompson will reply, if a point worth a reply is made. Mr. Giraldi, too, he knows a lot more about what he is talking about than most of us, so he only replies to a very good point, perhaps sometimes, it seems, because he knows who the poster is.

    Fisk, Petras, Arriba! Chomsky, many others, never deign to reply BTL. Petras does seem to react at times, but never posts BTL.

    So, the people seen as unpeople are the nice people.

    It is a shame that the lovely Ilana cannot confront her father’s role in her narrative of Into the Cannibal’s Pot. It makes it very easy to interpret all of her words as fake.

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    • Replies: @German_reader
    "Fisk, Petras, Arriba! Chomsky, many others, never deign to reply BTL. Petras does seem to react at times, but never posts BTL."

    I don't think the people you mention even look at the site here, I'd say UNZ just republishes their articles which had originally been published elsewhere (e.g. Fisk and Cockburn in the Independent). It's not surprising they never reply.
  86. @Wizard of Oz
    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment "authentic" autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    You can find no fault with pre modern pre Enlightenment “authentic” autocratic Turkishness taking over the lives of millions of people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    I find fault with the idea that we are entitled to interfere in the governance of a foreign nation.

    I find fault with plenty of things about how many countries are run internally, but the only ones I allow myself to believe I’m entitled to interfere in are my own, those with whom my country is unhealthily closely entangled (such as the US, and the EU regions), and those that might constitute a real, imminent and serious threat to my own country (of which there are none today).

    people who could well be fe!low citizens of Europeans, with respect for civil liberties, religious freedom, civil society, rule of law etc.?

    First, Turks are not Europeans and never will be, so long as they remain Turks.

    Second, there is no such thing as a European citizenship and I fervently hope there never will be, or at least that if the currently threatened United States of Europe ever does come to pass, it doesn’t subordinate my own country.

    Third, many of the consequences of the ideals you parade have been disastrous – the normalisation of homosexual activity, the ending of freedom of political association and freedom of speech under “antiracist” and “hate speech” provisions, the enablement of mass immigration and the suppression of resistance to it. If other nations see that and choose not to travel the same path, who can honestly blame them?

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  87. @Wizard of Oz
    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees? At least a quarter of those persecuted by Erdogan ought to fit into our societies well enough. That would be good practice for looking after Egypt's Copts.

    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees?

    http://beckyweltoncmp.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/stereotype-jew.gif

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Really?! I think you should think hard about what you just did.
  88. @Rurik

    what do the US ally (Turkey) and masters (Israel and Saudis) want in Syria and from Syria?
     
    when I first started to research this issue, [specifically the war on Syria and Turkey's involvement], I discovered that the maps of Syria that I found on the net were noticeably different- in that some of them included what is called the Hatay Province, and some didn't.

    The Hatay is a very nice piece of real estate right on the Med that has always been historically Syrian going back to antiquity even before the days of Alexander the Great and continuing thought the Ottoman Empire, but it seems that during a French occupation and colonial treachery revolving around WWII, it was handed to Turkey in a fixed 'referendum' that Syria never recognized and doesn't even today. Kind of like England handing Palestine away for reasons of imperial expedience.

    Anyways this is a map of Syria that shows Syria intact.

    http://www.angelfire.com/ma3/syrian/Map.gif

    they're increasingly rare when surfing the net from the West.

    here's a more typical map that shows the province carved off

    http://www.ezilon.com/maps/images/asia/Syria-physical-map.gif

    a sugar coated Western version that claims it's Turkish territory

    http://www.wow.com/wiki/Hatay_Province

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    Israel obviously wants the Golan, and anything else it can steal. Turkey wants to have the Hatay as undisputed territory, and anything else it can steal on its Southern borders.

    the Saudis want to destroy all non-Wahhabi regimes that threaten its uber-corrupt domination from the eastern regions of the greater Levant and 'put it to' its rival Iran by destroying an Iranian ally.

    The ZUSA (congressional whores and sadly, the potus) just wants to pander to Israel in any way, shape or form that it can.

    It tomorrow, somehow it was members of the Alawite sect who suddenly controlled the Federal Reserve Bank and consequently our media and institutions, then the 'A'USA would immediately demand that Israel get out of the Golan and the occupied territories and Turkey get out of the Hatay and Kurdistan would find its border secure by NATO and there'd be peace.

    But they don't. And the US congress being perfect whore$, it's Syria that is being carved apart. (or was until Vlad put a stop to the brazen rapine)

    I think you and most people know all of this, but I'm just chiming in here point out the obvious I guess.

    anyways the point is just to point out that what you already know, and that is that the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth.

    not that it needs saying, because everyone here already knows it..

    but just for the record, what is not said but understood by all, is that..

    the agenda in Syria is to steal her land and resources and wealth…

    *and* see her reduced to smoking rubble and a dystopian hell on earth of misery and stone age tribalism for generations to come, just like Libya or Iraq or everywhere else the Fiend has left the smell of sulfur in the air. And to use Syria as a stepping stone to do the same to Iran and eventually Russia…

    I was just assuming everyone here already knows all of that, but I figured I’d just mention it for the record.

    ;)

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  89. “Erdogan’s electoral fraud must be challenged”

    If it does, let the Turks do it. Why do the arm chair generals here always want to interfere in another country’s affairs? Apparently, they are not interested in their own country’s problems. There’s some quote from someone famous about removing the beam from your own eye first. What a novel idea. Take care of your own problems and let some country on the other side of the world take care of theirs. If they don’t, too bad, so sad.

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  90. @jacques sheete
    While I, for what little it's worth, appreciate your presence here and many of the views you express, and while I am annoyed by those who troll these pages with baseless opinions, may I suggest that the "anonymous" to whom you are responding made some good points and asked some excellent questions and I would expect of man of your experience and professionalism to make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    By doing that, at a minimum, you could no doubt provide some worthwhile insights while burnishing your image.

    In the unlikely case you give a bleep, writing him off as a one merely venting his spleen probably isn't the sort of reply that will gain you much respect, and certainly doesn't address any of his legitimate concerns in a valid manner.


    If you are so revolted by the fact that I and my country exist perhaps you should not bother to visit here.
     
    It probably isn't the fact that you and "our"country exist that gives some of us so much heartburn, but what most of the "leaders" have always done, but I suspect you already know that.

    make an attempt to answer him/her at least somewhat respectfully.

    I have to agree with PG here, because the questions were certainly not asked ‘somewhat respectfully’

    the commenter suggests that every person who ever worked for the CIA is complicit with the evil things the CIA is notorious for. I can’t accept that, since I suspect that most CIA personnel are not privy to the really nasty things some of them at the top do – like assassinating a personal hero of mine- Dr. Udo Ulfkotte.

    or Gary Webb

    or Michael Hastings…

    or running a heroin trafficking operation out of Afghanistan

    or so many other things, like the chemical attacks in Syria or the JFK assassination or 9/11

    but if someone would ask Mr. Giraldi in a respectful way to expound on these things, (if he hasn’t already), then that would, I suspect, make for some very intriguing reading

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  91. @Rurik

    How about welcoming a few million Turkish refugees?
     
    http://beckyweltoncmp.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/stereotype-jew.gif

    Really?! I think you should think hard about what you just did.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    I'm very, very, very, Very sorry!!

    it was completely appropriate !!!!

    those kinds of stereotypes are hate crimes! and No One should ever be permitted to engage in those kinds of scurrilous antics for the purposes of so-called "humor" !

    that was so far beyond the pale as to outrage all normal, genteel sensibilities and I hope the moderator here will find cause to delete that terrible, unforgivable, horrid lapse of decorum on my part immediately !!!!! [not]

    there are some forms of "humor" that must never, EVER be tolerated!, and anyone who engages in such frolics must be excoriated and excommunicated and extolled!

  92. @Sam Shama
    Really?! I think you should think hard about what you just did.

    I’m very, very, very, Very sorry!!

    it was completely appropriate !!!!

    those kinds of stereotypes are hate crimes! and No One should ever be permitted to engage in those kinds of scurrilous antics for the purposes of so-called “humor” !

    that was so far beyond the pale as to outrage all normal, genteel sensibilities and I hope the moderator here will find cause to delete that terrible, unforgivable, horrid lapse of decorum on my part immediately !!!!! [not]

    there are some forms of “humor” that must never, EVER be tolerated!, and anyone who engages in such frolics must be excoriated and excommunicated and extolled!

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    • LOL: SolontoCroesus, Z-man
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Good G'd man, quite the eruption. I had merely intended to underscore the lowbrow nature of that "joke", not typical of you at all; no comments on how the peanut gallery received it.
    , @iffen
    that was so far beyond the pale

    Speaking of the Pale, there is some very desirable real estate there compared to the West Bank.

    What's the Hebrew word for irredentist?

  93. @Che Guava
    My list was too short, the Derb will always reply to a sane comment, and is a pleasant correspondent, Rabid Khan would always reply with abuse, but he did react, not that I ever bothered him.

    His nasty replies were frequently justified by the commentor being a moron, but not always so.

    Thompson will reply, if a point worth a reply is made. Mr. Giraldi, too, he knows a lot more about what he is talking about than most of us, so he only replies to a very good point, perhaps sometimes, it seems, because he knows who the poster is.

    Fisk, Petras, Arriba! Chomsky, many others, never deign to reply BTL. Petras does seem to react at times, but never posts BTL.

    So, the people seen as unpeople are the nice people.

    It is a shame that the lovely Ilana cannot confront her father's role in her narrative of Into the Cannibal's Pot. It makes it very easy to interpret all of her words as fake.

    “Fisk, Petras, Arriba! Chomsky, many others, never deign to reply BTL. Petras does seem to react at times, but never posts BTL.”

    I don’t think the people you mention even look at the site here, I’d say UNZ just republishes their articles which had originally been published elsewhere (e.g. Fisk and Cockburn in the Independent). It’s not surprising they never reply.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Well, I am not in the association that Mr. Unz runs, though I think that it is pretty good and would like to help more.

    As far as I know, your point is badly wrong. Except for the articles specifically written for unz.com, the agent or writer is contacted for permission. I made a comment earlier in the last 24 hrs that may have annoyed Ilana Mercer, she is fairly major, she does engage with commentors at times.

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer, others, they are likely to reply to a revelant comment.

    Fisk, Arriba! Chomsky (never heard of her before here) etc. know that they are published here, but choose to ignore any potential debate.
  94. @Greasy William
    1. Erdogan isn't really anti Jewish, and he is actually less anti Israel than the secular Turks.

    2. Turkey's policies towards the Jews and Israel have no effect in the great scheme of things, but as a psuedo Western country, Turkey does have an impact on Western culture. If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.

    If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.

    I don’t really follow your logic here. Maybe there won’t be gay pride parades in Berlin one day anymore (because Muslims have expelled all the gays from the city…young Muslim males like beating gays up)…but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners??? I can’t see that…even most right-wingers find Erdogan pretty repellent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Greasy William

    …but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners???
     
    It's symbolic. Turkey is the first somewhat Western country where "progress" is being reversed. We've seen a real rollback of gay and women's rights in Turkey under Erdogan.

    I don't know how much you guys know about Obama in Germany, but he once said "The arc of history bends towards justice". This is a line American Leftists quote frequently; they believe that they are "on the right side of history". Turkey is the first concrete proof that all of the gains they have made over the last 70 years are only a temporary blip and that ultimately the Right will return to power and destroy everything the Left loves.
  95. @Wizard of Oz
    Actually, numbers aside, some Turkish refugees from Erdogan might be good for European countries like the Huguenots in the 17th century and Jews in the 1930s in the UK.

    Might be the case, at least they would know from personal experience that Islamism as a political programme is something to be feared and resisted.

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  96. All of this actually suits both Erdogan and the EU very well inasmuch as neither ever wanted Turkey in the EU and Erdogan’s conduct puts Turkey’s EU application on the back burner. Someone pointed above to the difference in treatment of Putin and Erdogan. That cuts both ways. Mr Giraldi spends a great deal of time justifying Putin’s conduct and his core argument: “kick Turkey out of NATO” has been a classic of the pro-Putin camp ever since the Turks shot down a Russian plane. My reading of this article is therefore that it isn’t really about Turkey, it’s about Putin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Apolonius
    My reading of your post is therefore that YOU are obsessed with Putin.
    Giraldi didn´t even mention his name once in all article.
    It seems that you miss articles of Nebojsa Malic, to keep you acute
    , @Kiza
    No Putin here this time, sorry. It is called the Putin Derangement Syndrome (PDS) and, as a sufferer, you should seek qualified medical assistance. The good doctor will prescribe you abstinence from MSM, because you have been consuming too much sewage from the Main Sewerage Media.
  97. @jilles dykstra
    What's the proposal ?

    My Dutch hairdressser, a 'Turk' born here, he does my hair for the last twelve years, is a devout Muslim.
    I did discuss politics with him, until maybe a year ago, when we discovered that Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as 'our president'.
    My hairdresser explained to me how Atatürk, who in 1920 or so created the Turkish state, against the intentions of France, USA, GB and Greece, estranged the Turkish people from religion.

    He's right, Atatürk did anything possible to westernise Turkey, forbade even the fez, British hat makers made fortunes exporting hats.
    A devout Turkish Islamic girl, speaking from Istanbul, in perfect english, explained how Erdogan had liberated her, now she can attend university wearing her religious symbol, he head scarf.

    Stalin tried to eradicate religion, he failed, Putin is more sensible, he cooperates with the Russian orthodox catholic church.
    Erdogan does the same, in my opinion.

    Islam cannot separate civil laws from religious laws, to me it is their problem, I regret what's happening there, but I do not see how we could interfere.
    Or if we did, it would not have the opposite effect.
    I do hope that in time even Muslims will understand that a religious society cannot bring prosperity, but it may take dozens of years, even more.
    In the meantime, I hope that conditions in jails will improve, and the death penalty will be an exception
    But even the USA still has the death penalty.

    There once was a not-so-devout Turkish teenage girl in the Netherlands whose parents had betrothed her to a man living in Turkey without her consent. She had never met him and refused to leave the Netherlands (If I remember correctly this happened in Rotterdam). The case might not have gone to court if it had not been for her classmates who created a national ruckus. When it did go to court the Salomonic judge gave the parents two options. Either y’ all leave and go to Turkey or remain in the Netherlands and obey Dutch laws meaning: annul the betrothal and let the girl consent when needed. Of course the parents “kozen eieren voor hun geld” and remained in the Netherlands.
    My point? With Turkey developing in the direction of a theocracy it is more than ever needed that violations of Dutch family laws by Turkish families (and Dutch of course too) are not tolerated by the justice department.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Didi,

    Consent for the marriage by the bride is required by the Shariah - there is no dissenting opinion on this. The Dutch court is only enforcing what the sacred law already demands - good for them, I hope they keep it up.

    Peace.
  98. @Greasy William
    1. Erdogan isn't really anti Jewish, and he is actually less anti Israel than the secular Turks.

    2. Turkey's policies towards the Jews and Israel have no effect in the great scheme of things, but as a psuedo Western country, Turkey does have an impact on Western culture. If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.

    Erdogan and his acolytes actually are anti-Semitic, but this does not necessarily mean anti-Israel. When there was a cold war with Israel (apparently), Turkish-Israeli trade actually increased. It is likely that Erdogan’s somewhat paranoiac mind actually believes every word in The Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion (incidentally, a book I have actually seen included in book club lists in Turkey) but he may think that normalising relations with Israel will take some off the heat off.
    I think making money and not getting overthrown supersede every other motivation or belief Erdogan may have.

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  99. For those who did not live through the ravages of WW2 in Europe it must be impossible to understand why most of us in Europe did welcome NATO, the Common Market, and then the EU. We may have been a bit naive but the effect has been good: no more blitzkrieg, no more carpet bombing of cities, no more arrest and deportation to concentration camps of Jews and political opponents of regimes, no more indentured and slave labor, and much more.
    If one ignores the mini states such as Andorra, four European countries of the time were not involved in WW2 and Turkey was one of these.
    And Brexit is a surly if not immoral denial of what has changed. Britain no longer rules the waves and London is definitely no longer the banking center of the world.
    That is also why every “exiter” is a dangerous pied piper.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Turkey declared war on Germany in early 1945, when the issue was no longer in doubt. After tolerating them at first, in 1944 it had begun arresting Turkish advocates of joining the Axis. The previous year there had been a delegation of Turkish army officers observing the battle of Kursk from the German side, but they probably went back to Ankara and reported that Germany was slowly but surely losing the war.
  100. @Didi
    There once was a not-so-devout Turkish teenage girl in the Netherlands whose parents had betrothed her to a man living in Turkey without her consent. She had never met him and refused to leave the Netherlands (If I remember correctly this happened in Rotterdam). The case might not have gone to court if it had not been for her classmates who created a national ruckus. When it did go to court the Salomonic judge gave the parents two options. Either y' all leave and go to Turkey or remain in the Netherlands and obey Dutch laws meaning: annul the betrothal and let the girl consent when needed. Of course the parents "kozen eieren voor hun geld" and remained in the Netherlands.
    My point? With Turkey developing in the direction of a theocracy it is more than ever needed that violations of Dutch family laws by Turkish families (and Dutch of course too) are not tolerated by the justice department.

    Hey Didi,

    Consent for the marriage by the bride is required by the Shariah – there is no dissenting opinion on this. The Dutch court is only enforcing what the sacred law already demands – good for them, I hope they keep it up.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Apolonius
    As there are no dissenting opinions that many muslim girls not respecting wishes of their families, are thrown out of house, and much worse, even killed. It is sharia, as well?
  101. @Rurik
    I'm very, very, very, Very sorry!!

    it was completely appropriate !!!!

    those kinds of stereotypes are hate crimes! and No One should ever be permitted to engage in those kinds of scurrilous antics for the purposes of so-called "humor" !

    that was so far beyond the pale as to outrage all normal, genteel sensibilities and I hope the moderator here will find cause to delete that terrible, unforgivable, horrid lapse of decorum on my part immediately !!!!! [not]

    there are some forms of "humor" that must never, EVER be tolerated!, and anyone who engages in such frolics must be excoriated and excommunicated and extolled!

    Good G’d man, quite the eruption. I had merely intended to underscore the lowbrow nature of that “joke”, not typical of you at all; no comments on how the peanut gallery received it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    I had merely intended to underscore the lowbrow nature of that “joke”
     
    no problem Sam

    but I suspect it tweaked you because it was so uncomfortably apropos

    there really does seem to be a kneejerk insistence / imperative from (too many) Jews- that Israel engage in ethnic purity to the point of ethnic cleansing, while simultaneously insisting that all white nations do the opposite. And it's that glaring double standard and rank hypocrisy that creates the stereotypes like that cartoon caricature, no?

  102. @Wizard of Oz
    Actually, numbers aside, some Turkish refugees from Erdogan might be good for European countries like the Huguenots in the 17th century and Jews in the 1930s in the UK.

    LOL!
    Hey, shill, have you ever considered working as a clown for a circus?

    Read More
  103. @jilles dykstra
    What's the proposal ?

    My Dutch hairdressser, a 'Turk' born here, he does my hair for the last twelve years, is a devout Muslim.
    I did discuss politics with him, until maybe a year ago, when we discovered that Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as 'our president'.
    My hairdresser explained to me how Atatürk, who in 1920 or so created the Turkish state, against the intentions of France, USA, GB and Greece, estranged the Turkish people from religion.

    He's right, Atatürk did anything possible to westernise Turkey, forbade even the fez, British hat makers made fortunes exporting hats.
    A devout Turkish Islamic girl, speaking from Istanbul, in perfect english, explained how Erdogan had liberated her, now she can attend university wearing her religious symbol, he head scarf.

    Stalin tried to eradicate religion, he failed, Putin is more sensible, he cooperates with the Russian orthodox catholic church.
    Erdogan does the same, in my opinion.

    Islam cannot separate civil laws from religious laws, to me it is their problem, I regret what's happening there, but I do not see how we could interfere.
    Or if we did, it would not have the opposite effect.
    I do hope that in time even Muslims will understand that a religious society cannot bring prosperity, but it may take dozens of years, even more.
    In the meantime, I hope that conditions in jails will improve, and the death penalty will be an exception
    But even the USA still has the death penalty.

    I take it you have a problem with an overwhelmingly Muslim nation trying to live by the principles of its faith (even as we crow about our Christian-Judaic “values.)

    You neither know anything about Islam or about the history of Islam. However, do try and not display your racism and ignorance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Where to begin. Oh boy.

    First, Islam is not a race, and there are Muslims of all races.

    Second, you'll never find me (and many other unz commenters) crowing about anything "Christian-Judaic." In any event, the propaganda term, in the USA and Canada at least, is Judeo-Christian.

    Third, yes, sane people have a problem with Islam. But that doesn't mean we want nonMuslims governments to invade, bomb, sanction, or threaten Muslim countries. We don't.
  104. @naro
    Erdogan is a strong counterweight to the Iranian regime. They will come to blows eventually.

    ‘Erdogan is a strong counterweight to the Iranian regime. They will come to blows eventually’
    So hopes zionist shill, naro!
    Always hoping others will fight your wars for you, eh?
    Like ZUSA in Iraq and the takfiri mercenaries in Syria…

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  105. @didi
    For those who did not live through the ravages of WW2 in Europe it must be impossible to understand why most of us in Europe did welcome NATO, the Common Market, and then the EU. We may have been a bit naive but the effect has been good: no more blitzkrieg, no more carpet bombing of cities, no more arrest and deportation to concentration camps of Jews and political opponents of regimes, no more indentured and slave labor, and much more.
    If one ignores the mini states such as Andorra, four European countries of the time were not involved in WW2 and Turkey was one of these.
    And Brexit is a surly if not immoral denial of what has changed. Britain no longer rules the waves and London is definitely no longer the banking center of the world.
    That is also why every "exiter" is a dangerous pied piper.

    Turkey declared war on Germany in early 1945, when the issue was no longer in doubt. After tolerating them at first, in 1944 it had begun arresting Turkish advocates of joining the Axis. The previous year there had been a delegation of Turkish army officers observing the battle of Kursk from the German side, but they probably went back to Ankara and reported that Germany was slowly but surely losing the war.

    Read More
  106. @Philip Giraldi
    Erdogan played the Kurdish card for domestic political reasons, i.e. he needed to delegitimize the major largely Kurdish party that opposed his policies. He probably thought that getting rid of al-Assad would be quick and easy resulting in a chaotic situation along his border that he would be able to control but he was wrong on both counts. As you note, the situation has been completely misread by Erdogan and his associates and there is no easy way out. It will be interesting to see what Erdogan and Trump will have to talk about. BTW I will have a piece exploring Turkish motives (as well as those of Israel and the Saudis) on The American Conservative site later this week...

    I have read somewhere that Erdogan and Assad had good relations, even had holidays together.. Maybe reason for Erdogan´s self-defeating politics about Syria are actually, personal? Quarelled with Assad on vacation?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    Erdogan visited Assad in early 2011 and up to shortly after that they seemed to get on. I think Erdogan believed Assad would "democratise" and hand over to people who would make Syria a Turkish satellite, and when fighting started he assumed Assad would quickly be overthrown.
    Assad himself has claimed Erdogan was misinformed by his then foreign minister, Davutoglu.
  107. @Talha
    Hey Didi,

    Consent for the marriage by the bride is required by the Shariah - there is no dissenting opinion on this. The Dutch court is only enforcing what the sacred law already demands - good for them, I hope they keep it up.

    Peace.

    As there are no dissenting opinions that many muslim girls not respecting wishes of their families, are thrown out of house, and much worse, even killed. It is sharia, as well?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Apolonius,

    Find me the Muslim scholars who approve of this behavior then we can talk - the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, the Shariah requires also that the father (or guardian [wali]) approves of the marriage - thus it legally accommodates both sides' concerns; the bride and the guardian. And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent.

    I'm actually glad that if Muslims in the West will not live up to the standards of behavior required by the sacred law that the secular authorities will enforce it on them anyway - that's awesome. Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions.

    Peace.
  108. @Michael Kenny
    All of this actually suits both Erdogan and the EU very well inasmuch as neither ever wanted Turkey in the EU and Erdogan's conduct puts Turkey's EU application on the back burner. Someone pointed above to the difference in treatment of Putin and Erdogan. That cuts both ways. Mr Giraldi spends a great deal of time justifying Putin's conduct and his core argument: "kick Turkey out of NATO" has been a classic of the pro-Putin camp ever since the Turks shot down a Russian plane. My reading of this article is therefore that it isn't really about Turkey, it's about Putin.

    My reading of your post is therefore that YOU are obsessed with Putin.
    Giraldi didn´t even mention his name once in all article.
    It seems that you miss articles of Nebojsa Malic, to keep you acute

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Apolonius, you are quite right. My article is about Turkey. I have written about Russian elsewhere. I note this evening that Turkey is now threatening to attack US troops who are accompanying Kurds in Syria and Iraq. Nice. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/3/turkey-threatens-strike-us-forces-partnered-kurdis/
  109. @Apolonius
    As there are no dissenting opinions that many muslim girls not respecting wishes of their families, are thrown out of house, and much worse, even killed. It is sharia, as well?

    Hey Apolonius,

    Find me the Muslim scholars who approve of this behavior then we can talk – the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, the Shariah requires also that the father (or guardian [wali]) approves of the marriage – thus it legally accommodates both sides’ concerns; the bride and the guardian. And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent.

    I’m actually glad that if Muslims in the West will not live up to the standards of behavior required by the sacred law that the secular authorities will enforce it on them anyway – that’s awesome. Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Apolonius
    "And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent."
    You are trying to say that girls cant get married without consent of guardian?
    So, girls are basically idiots, because their choice has to be confirmed first by guardian? Until some age, or always?
    Thank you for some useful information. Let us stop about sharia and religion: it is very old story, all the same arguments..... At least good thing that we don´t kill each other about it . Or..
    , @Dave Bowman

    Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions
     
    Let me get this straight: You're saying that it is now the responsibility of "Western governments" to safeguard the moral consciences of Moslems (who consider themselves, just like their blood-cousins the Jews, to be the most "devout" people on earth) -by REVOKING for them and everyone else the Western democratic freedoms we have taken for granted for centuries in our own lands - Instead of it being each and every MOSLEM's own individual responsibility in whatever country he or she lives in, to develop moral fibre and safeguard his OWN conscience, by intelligent and sincere personal decision-making ?

    I always believed based on a wealth of personal experience that most Moslems were lying, cheating, duplicitous, immoral, worthless humbugs and hypocrites, but your barely-believable, utterly moral-free, finger-pointing chutzpah here just takes my breath away.

    I thank God every day that I wasn't born Moslem.
  110. @Talha
    Hey Apolonius,

    Find me the Muslim scholars who approve of this behavior then we can talk - the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, the Shariah requires also that the father (or guardian [wali]) approves of the marriage - thus it legally accommodates both sides' concerns; the bride and the guardian. And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent.

    I'm actually glad that if Muslims in the West will not live up to the standards of behavior required by the sacred law that the secular authorities will enforce it on them anyway - that's awesome. Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions.

    Peace.

    “And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent.”
    You are trying to say that girls cant get married without consent of guardian?
    So, girls are basically idiots, because their choice has to be confirmed first by guardian? Until some age, or always?
    Thank you for some useful information. Let us stop about sharia and religion: it is very old story, all the same arguments….. At least good thing that we don´t kill each other about it . Or..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Apolonius,

    You are trying to say that girls cant get married without consent of guardian?
     
    Correct, in most schools of jurisprudence.

    In the school I - and most Muslims - follow (Hanafi), she can but it can be annulled if the guardian has legitimate reason they can bring to the court (so it is only slightly different than the other schools).


    So, girls are basically idiots
     
    No - if they were, they would not be given a voice. Their consent is legally necessary, thus they have 50% share in the matter and 100% share in the case they don't make a bad decision. The guardian is legally in a position to look out for her interests in case she is about to make a bad decision. Trust me, there are plenty of fathers in the West that wish they could legally stop someone from seeing their daughter; Islam simply gives them the ability to exercise that option.

    Most fathers and daughters that have a healthy relationship come to a mutual understanding and decision without much fanfare. The legalities kick in if there is a tug-of-war.


    Until some age, or always?
     
    Always - menfolk are supposed to look out for the interests of their women in all stages of their life. That is part of what being a man is. It is only post-modern society who doesn't understand this.

    Thank you for some useful information.
     
    We aims to please.

    Peace.

  111. @Sam Shama
    Good G'd man, quite the eruption. I had merely intended to underscore the lowbrow nature of that "joke", not typical of you at all; no comments on how the peanut gallery received it.

    I had merely intended to underscore the lowbrow nature of that “joke”

    no problem Sam

    but I suspect it tweaked you because it was so uncomfortably apropos

    there really does seem to be a kneejerk insistence / imperative from (too many) Jews- that Israel engage in ethnic purity to the point of ethnic cleansing, while simultaneously insisting that all white nations do the opposite. And it’s that glaring double standard and rank hypocrisy that creates the stereotypes like that cartoon caricature, no?

    Read More
  112. @Apolonius
    My reading of your post is therefore that YOU are obsessed with Putin.
    Giraldi didn´t even mention his name once in all article.
    It seems that you miss articles of Nebojsa Malic, to keep you acute

    Thanks Apolonius, you are quite right. My article is about Turkey. I have written about Russian elsewhere. I note this evening that Turkey is now threatening to attack US troops who are accompanying Kurds in Syria and Iraq. Nice. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/3/turkey-threatens-strike-us-forces-partnered-kurdis/

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Mr. Giraldi,

    Neither the Turks nor the American troops have ANY business being in Syria... or in Iraq for that matter
    Both are in Syria illegally, against International Law.
    The only troops that were invited by the Syrian government to help fight the various Takfiri groups backed by ZUSA itself and its various partners in crime, are those of Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

    ZUSA is using the opportunistic Kurds to try to dismember Syria.

    Mr. Giraldi, the excuse to fight ISIS is merely the pretext to carry on with the destruction of Syria.
    After all, ZUSA helped nurture/create ISIS, as that DIA leaked document, plus ZUSA's own fake war on ISIS, amply reveal. Recall that after months of ZUSAs alleged air campaign against ISIS, the group only grew... it took Russian airstrikes and the Iranian backed PMU to finally start pushing DAESH back, and really degrade them.

    Furthermore, ZUSA has been fully supporting, if indirectly, the Nusra Front, now 'Tahrir al-Sham'. ZUSA's government has, in fact, done its utmost, to shield Nusra from Syrian and its allies attacks, under the excuse that its own illegal armed terrorists are too entangled, i.e, fight together, with Nusra... which is true btw.
    In 2016, Jürgen Todenhöfer interviewed an Al-Nusra Commander, who stated: "The Americans stand on our side".

    Despite all the artificial focus on DAESH, the Nusra gang is actually more dangerous to Syria.
  113. @Apolonius
    "And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent."
    You are trying to say that girls cant get married without consent of guardian?
    So, girls are basically idiots, because their choice has to be confirmed first by guardian? Until some age, or always?
    Thank you for some useful information. Let us stop about sharia and religion: it is very old story, all the same arguments..... At least good thing that we don´t kill each other about it . Or..

    Hey Apolonius,

    You are trying to say that girls cant get married without consent of guardian?

    Correct, in most schools of jurisprudence.

    In the school I – and most Muslims – follow (Hanafi), she can but it can be annulled if the guardian has legitimate reason they can bring to the court (so it is only slightly different than the other schools).

    So, girls are basically idiots

    No – if they were, they would not be given a voice. Their consent is legally necessary, thus they have 50% share in the matter and 100% share in the case they don’t make a bad decision. The guardian is legally in a position to look out for her interests in case she is about to make a bad decision. Trust me, there are plenty of fathers in the West that wish they could legally stop someone from seeing their daughter; Islam simply gives them the ability to exercise that option.

    Most fathers and daughters that have a healthy relationship come to a mutual understanding and decision without much fanfare. The legalities kick in if there is a tug-of-war.

    Until some age, or always?

    Always – menfolk are supposed to look out for the interests of their women in all stages of their life. That is part of what being a man is. It is only post-modern society who doesn’t understand this.

    Thank you for some useful information.

    We aims to please.

    Peace.

    Read More
  114. @Apolonius
    I have read somewhere that Erdogan and Assad had good relations, even had holidays together.. Maybe reason for Erdogan´s self-defeating politics about Syria are actually, personal? Quarelled with Assad on vacation?

    Erdogan visited Assad in early 2011 and up to shortly after that they seemed to get on. I think Erdogan believed Assad would “democratise” and hand over to people who would make Syria a Turkish satellite, and when fighting started he assumed Assad would quickly be overthrown.
    Assad himself has claimed Erdogan was misinformed by his then foreign minister, Davutoglu.

    Read More
  115. If Turkey, under Erdogan’s leadership/dictatorship, wishes to to become a closed, Islamist society then that’s their prerogative, but they shouldn’t expect the EU to welcome them with open arms. There is simply no common interests or common culture between the two and Erdogan’s recent actions are only driving them further apart.

    The problem this poses to Europe is that Turkey has a decent sized diaspora population throughout Western Europe with a passionate attachment to mother Turkey. So if Erdogan becomes implacably hostile to Europe he might encourage the diaspora Turks likewise or they may follow his lead to show their loyalty to him. If that happens then European leaders will need to grow some spine and begin deporting Turks.

    Personally, I think Erdogan wishes to colonize Europe through his visa free travel scheme that he’s been demanding for the last 2-3 years.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    I don't think Erdogan has any plans to take over Europe, even at his most deranged (and I think he is at least a little bit nuts). He is capable of using some of his followers in Europe as a force multiplier, which is why some of his imams in Germany face espionage charges and a number of them have reportedly skipped bail and fled to Turkey.
    He has actually left Europe's Turkish minority more vulnerable than before, as the referendum showed how many are out of sync with typical European attitudes, but the AKP government is inclined to think its diapora should return to Turkey anyway.
  116. @Anon
    "Ironically, in terms of European and American interests, it is the more cosmopolitan Turks who are most supportive of western values and democracy and it is they who will suffer most."

    And what would these 'western values' be? Homomania that destroys lives of those who don't bake 'gay wedding cake'? Sticking homo symbols in churches? Teaching kids homo-propaganda in schools? Promotion of rap thug culture and jungle fever? Feminism that hates on men, and men being reduced to a bunch of pansies? Using PC to colonize minds? Colleges overrun with PC? Journalists as pressitutes of the War Lobby? Did you see Brian Williams waxing poetic about those 'beautiful' missiles. So much for democratic media.

    I loathe Erdogan who is megalomaniacal and sticking his nose into other nations all the time. Also, it is true that he is undermining democracy. But what does it mean to be 'democratic' in the 21st century? To have leaders like Justin Trudeau, Macron, Merkel, and that globalist turd in Austria? Is democratic Sweden better off than Turkey? If democracy leads to current Sweden, who needs it? And what kind of democracy does the US have? What kind of free press does it have? People elected Trump the nationalist but the Deep State got to him and he's now just another globo-cuck. So much for democracy.

    I'm not defending Erdogan or current Turkey, and I think things look pretty dire. But if the alternative is 'western values' and emulating current West, I don't see Erdoganism as worse.
    It's bad but anything that fends of current Western Decadence is a good.

    It’s one thing to point to problems in “democracies” that make one consider why we call them democracies or that the essentials or essential virtues of dempocracy are, and one can point, for example at colonial Hong Kong as showing that rule of law and democracy are not the same thing…. But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric? (And amazingly I see Agrees from some who must have ovetlooked most of the excess). I see that you hate the globalists and I can see how the globalism which – at least in the short term – benefits the rich and has led to support for Brexit, Trump and Le Pen but what has that got to do with Sweden, softheaded as it is about what kind of refugees can fit into Swedish society?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric?

    Sweden as it once was a paradise. I would choose that over Sweden.

    But Sweden decided to castrate its men and invite tons of Africans and Muslims. It is now in suicide mode. Sure, the nice parts of Sweden are still nicer than any part of Turkey. But Sweden is getting more and more un-nice, and I don't mean just politically. I mean demographically.

    I agree that the Turks are politically nasty and brutal. But they believe in Turkishness. So, nice or un-nice, Turks will be Turks. But will Swedes be masters of their own nation in 50 yrs? I doubt it.

    Turks have the Will to be Turks. Swedes have lost the Will to be Swedes.

    No matter now nice a people and nation, without will to identity and land, it is game over.
  117. Hi PG, great article and informative, but Erdogan never threatened Europeans with terrorism. It’s great to tell the truth, but there’s no need to manufacture up “facts”

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    No, Erdogan, whose overheated statements I have referred to on several occasions, has several times made remarks that at least tend in that direction. Basically, when he is ranting at his own followers about Europe allegedly providing a haven for terrorists, he says it would serve them right to get attacked, and then often couples this with threats to turn refugees loose on Europe, with the implication that some of these will be terrorists. You do not get the blatant smoking gun of "I will command ISIS/Al Qaeda to attack European targets", any more than you will get him or his acolytes saying outright "I will call on my forces to deliberately target Americans in Syria". No, Americans might get hit "accidentally". We are at the level of Don Corleone making offers that can't be refused, not Don Corleone specifically giving an order in public to leave Khartoum's head in Jack Woltz's bedroom.
    , @Philip Giraldi
    After several European governments refused to allow Turkish officials to hold electoral rallies in their countries, Erdogan said "If Europe continues this way, no European in any part of the world can walk safely on the streets." Of course that can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I would take it as a threat to somehow unleash a wave of terror against Europeans.
  118. @German_reader

    If today there are no Gay Pride parades in Istanbul, tomorrow there will be no Gay Pride parades in Berlin.
     
    I don't really follow your logic here. Maybe there won't be gay pride parades in Berlin one day anymore (because Muslims have expelled all the gays from the city...young Muslim males like beating gays up)...but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners??? I can't see that...even most right-wingers find Erdogan pretty repellent.

    …but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners???

    It’s symbolic. Turkey is the first somewhat Western country where “progress” is being reversed. We’ve seen a real rollback of gay and women’s rights in Turkey under Erdogan.

    I don’t know how much you guys know about Obama in Germany, but he once said “The arc of history bends towards justice”. This is a line American Leftists quote frequently; they believe that they are “on the right side of history”. Turkey is the first concrete proof that all of the gains they have made over the last 70 years are only a temporary blip and that ultimately the Right will return to power and destroy everything the Left loves.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Turkey is the first somewhat Western country where “progress” is being reversed.
     
    Yes, but in the process Turkey will cease to be even "somewhat Western". It will simply become another unstable, dysfunctional part of the Islamic world. I don't see how that will serve as an inspiration or role model for anyone but Islamists.
    Agree with you about Obama though. His progressive platitudes were really annoying.
  119. @Michael Kenny
    All of this actually suits both Erdogan and the EU very well inasmuch as neither ever wanted Turkey in the EU and Erdogan's conduct puts Turkey's EU application on the back burner. Someone pointed above to the difference in treatment of Putin and Erdogan. That cuts both ways. Mr Giraldi spends a great deal of time justifying Putin's conduct and his core argument: "kick Turkey out of NATO" has been a classic of the pro-Putin camp ever since the Turks shot down a Russian plane. My reading of this article is therefore that it isn't really about Turkey, it's about Putin.

    No Putin here this time, sorry. It is called the Putin Derangement Syndrome (PDS) and, as a sufferer, you should seek qualified medical assistance. The good doctor will prescribe you abstinence from MSM, because you have been consuming too much sewage from the Main Sewerage Media.

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  120. Anon says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Wizard of Oz
    It's one thing to point to problems in "democracies" that make one consider why we call them democracies or that the essentials or essential virtues of dempocracy are, and one can point, for example at colonial Hong Kong as showing that rule of law and democracy are not the same thing.... But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric? (And amazingly I see Agrees from some who must have ovetlooked most of the excess). I see that you hate the globalists and I can see how the globalism which - at least in the short term - benefits the rich and has led to support for Brexit, Trump and Le Pen but what has that got to do with Sweden, softheaded as it is about what kind of refugees can fit into Swedish society?

    But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric?

    Sweden as it once was a paradise. I would choose that over Sweden.

    But Sweden decided to castrate its men and invite tons of Africans and Muslims. It is now in suicide mode. Sure, the nice parts of Sweden are still nicer than any part of Turkey. But Sweden is getting more and more un-nice, and I don’t mean just politically. I mean demographically.

    I agree that the Turks are politically nasty and brutal. But they believe in Turkishness. So, nice or un-nice, Turks will be Turks. But will Swedes be masters of their own nation in 50 yrs? I doubt it.

    Turks have the Will to be Turks. Swedes have lost the Will to be Swedes.

    No matter now nice a people and nation, without will to identity and land, it is game over.

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    A significant minority actually have the will to be Kurds, one of the reasons for Turkey's internal tension and instability. The special vitriol of Turkish nationalism is partly down to so many not "really" being Turks.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    My main objection is thst your judgment is premature because it is hard to believe the Swedes will continue to be so blind and foolish. But I concede your point about the Swedes having lost any will to be Swedes as the admittedly small sample of Swedes that I came across when visiting Stockholm last year, with particular attention to its Muslim community, was pathetically lacking in any sense of Swedishness that was something of value.
  121. @truthtellerAryan
    Hi PG, great article and informative, but Erdogan never threatened Europeans with terrorism. It's great to tell the truth, but there's no need to manufacture up "facts"

    No, Erdogan, whose overheated statements I have referred to on several occasions, has several times made remarks that at least tend in that direction. Basically, when he is ranting at his own followers about Europe allegedly providing a haven for terrorists, he says it would serve them right to get attacked, and then often couples this with threats to turn refugees loose on Europe, with the implication that some of these will be terrorists. You do not get the blatant smoking gun of “I will command ISIS/Al Qaeda to attack European targets”, any more than you will get him or his acolytes saying outright “I will call on my forces to deliberately target Americans in Syria”. No, Americans might get hit “accidentally”. We are at the level of Don Corleone making offers that can’t be refused, not Don Corleone specifically giving an order in public to leave Khartoum’s head in Jack Woltz’s bedroom.

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  122. @KenH
    If Turkey, under Erdogan's leadership/dictatorship, wishes to to become a closed, Islamist society then that's their prerogative, but they shouldn't expect the EU to welcome them with open arms. There is simply no common interests or common culture between the two and Erdogan's recent actions are only driving them further apart.

    The problem this poses to Europe is that Turkey has a decent sized diaspora population throughout Western Europe with a passionate attachment to mother Turkey. So if Erdogan becomes implacably hostile to Europe he might encourage the diaspora Turks likewise or they may follow his lead to show their loyalty to him. If that happens then European leaders will need to grow some spine and begin deporting Turks.

    Personally, I think Erdogan wishes to colonize Europe through his visa free travel scheme that he's been demanding for the last 2-3 years.

    I don’t think Erdogan has any plans to take over Europe, even at his most deranged (and I think he is at least a little bit nuts). He is capable of using some of his followers in Europe as a force multiplier, which is why some of his imams in Germany face espionage charges and a number of them have reportedly skipped bail and fled to Turkey.
    He has actually left Europe’s Turkish minority more vulnerable than before, as the referendum showed how many are out of sync with typical European attitudes, but the AKP government is inclined to think its diapora should return to Turkey anyway.

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  123. @Anon
    But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric?

    Sweden as it once was a paradise. I would choose that over Sweden.

    But Sweden decided to castrate its men and invite tons of Africans and Muslims. It is now in suicide mode. Sure, the nice parts of Sweden are still nicer than any part of Turkey. But Sweden is getting more and more un-nice, and I don't mean just politically. I mean demographically.

    I agree that the Turks are politically nasty and brutal. But they believe in Turkishness. So, nice or un-nice, Turks will be Turks. But will Swedes be masters of their own nation in 50 yrs? I doubt it.

    Turks have the Will to be Turks. Swedes have lost the Will to be Swedes.

    No matter now nice a people and nation, without will to identity and land, it is game over.

    A significant minority actually have the will to be Kurds, one of the reasons for Turkey’s internal tension and instability. The special vitriol of Turkish nationalism is partly down to so many not “really” being Turks.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    And the Kurds have a much higher birthrate than the Turks do they not?
  124. @truthtellerAryan
    Hi PG, great article and informative, but Erdogan never threatened Europeans with terrorism. It's great to tell the truth, but there's no need to manufacture up "facts"

    After several European governments refused to allow Turkish officials to hold electoral rallies in their countries, Erdogan said “If Europe continues this way, no European in any part of the world can walk safely on the streets.” Of course that can be interpreted in a number of ways, but I would take it as a threat to somehow unleash a wave of terror against Europeans.

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  125. @Rurik
    I'm very, very, very, Very sorry!!

    it was completely appropriate !!!!

    those kinds of stereotypes are hate crimes! and No One should ever be permitted to engage in those kinds of scurrilous antics for the purposes of so-called "humor" !

    that was so far beyond the pale as to outrage all normal, genteel sensibilities and I hope the moderator here will find cause to delete that terrible, unforgivable, horrid lapse of decorum on my part immediately !!!!! [not]

    there are some forms of "humor" that must never, EVER be tolerated!, and anyone who engages in such frolics must be excoriated and excommunicated and extolled!

    that was so far beyond the pale

    Speaking of the Pale, there is some very desirable real estate there compared to the West Bank.

    What’s the Hebrew word for irredentist?

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Well, if anyone you would know it would be you.
    , @Rurik

    What’s the Hebrew word for irredentist?
     
    Hamas
  126. @Greasy William

    …but you think Turkey has some sort of cultural influence on Westerners???
     
    It's symbolic. Turkey is the first somewhat Western country where "progress" is being reversed. We've seen a real rollback of gay and women's rights in Turkey under Erdogan.

    I don't know how much you guys know about Obama in Germany, but he once said "The arc of history bends towards justice". This is a line American Leftists quote frequently; they believe that they are "on the right side of history". Turkey is the first concrete proof that all of the gains they have made over the last 70 years are only a temporary blip and that ultimately the Right will return to power and destroy everything the Left loves.

    Turkey is the first somewhat Western country where “progress” is being reversed.

    Yes, but in the process Turkey will cease to be even “somewhat Western”. It will simply become another unstable, dysfunctional part of the Islamic world. I don’t see how that will serve as an inspiration or role model for anyone but Islamists.
    Agree with you about Obama though. His progressive platitudes were really annoying.

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  127. Erdogan’s electoral fraud must be challenged

    Maybe, but that is up to the Turkish people and none of our business.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Isn't there some distance between going to war or fostering armed insurgency and doing absolutely nothing in word pr deed even abstention to show disapproval and put some pressure on. Would you invite into your house someone you knew had deceitfully deprived his siblings of their fair share of a family inheritance or would you say "none of my business, it's a family fight and he may get away with it in court mostly because it will cost too much for the siblings he has impoverished to take him on"?
    , @Alden
    Exactly my opinion re Giraldi's idea that we should control Turkish elections. Maybe America should look into electoral fraud and other problems in our electoral process.

    For instance, the state of Georgia Elections Commission discovered that homeland security hacked into the electoral databases of every county in Georgia.

    That is unprecedented. Then there is the register to vote via a mail in card. These cards are in every post office, public library, community center, and most state and local government offices. Anyone can pick up 10, 20 or 50 of these cards and fill them out with a different name but the same address.
    Then check "I want to vote by mail instead of in person". The mail in ballots in all those names will arrive a few weeks before the election. Simply fill them out and but back in the mail.

    And, viola anyone in America whether a citizen or legal or illegal immigrant can vote under numerous names in an election without fear of any investigation.

    Occasionally a postal carrier will send an email to the local elections commissions that he or she has delivered 60 mail in ballots under 60 different names to a one bedroom apartment but investigations are never done.

    Maybe America should clean up its own house before reforming the rest of the world.

    True story from before my state had mail in voter registration cards on the counters of every government building for anyone to take.

    Back in the olden days we had to actually go down to an elections office to register to vote.

    My sister and her husband lived in Geany at the time and my house was their official US address. My sister was a teacher and every summer would visit me often with European friends.

    Well, one year she wanted to register to vote of course by absentee ballot from her house in Germany. So she went down to the registrar of voters with her passport, California drivers license and international dr license.

    She came back absolutely shocked that she was not asked for any form of identification or proof of address and just given the registration and absentee ballot forms.

    So her friends decided to see if they could register to vote in American elections. Same thing, no request for identification, no request for proof of address. One was German and had no accent. But the other two were English and had noticeable accents.

    They all received their absentee ballots in Germany and all voted against President Reagan in both his elections.

  128. @Uebersetzer
    A significant minority actually have the will to be Kurds, one of the reasons for Turkey's internal tension and instability. The special vitriol of Turkish nationalism is partly down to so many not "really" being Turks.

    And the Kurds have a much higher birthrate than the Turks do they not?

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    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
    More than double the rate, if Wikipedia is to be believed. (Kurds I have met tend to regard two children in a family to be a ridiculously small number.) Kurdish areas are both poorer and more feudal than most other parts of Turkey, and that tends to mean a higher birth rate. Erdogan has encouraged Turks to have more children, perhaps to try and stave off the population time bomb.
  129. @woodNfish

    Erdogan's electoral fraud must be challenged
     
    Maybe, but that is up to the Turkish people and none of our business.

    Isn’t there some distance between going to war or fostering armed insurgency and doing absolutely nothing in word pr deed even abstention to show disapproval and put some pressure on. Would you invite into your house someone you knew had deceitfully deprived his siblings of their fair share of a family inheritance or would you say “none of my business, it’s a family fight and he may get away with it in court mostly because it will cost too much for the siblings he has impoverished to take him on”?

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    • Replies: @woodNfish
    Turkey is a sovereign country with a sovereign people. It is their business if they want Erdogan or not, and their business to deal with it however they decide. It has nothing to do with us. If you want to join a fight against Erdogan as a mercenary, be my guest, but don't involve my family, my country or my money.
  130. @Anon
    But, really, how can you possibly consider Sweden worse off than Turkey the police state? Carried awsy with your rhetoric?

    Sweden as it once was a paradise. I would choose that over Sweden.

    But Sweden decided to castrate its men and invite tons of Africans and Muslims. It is now in suicide mode. Sure, the nice parts of Sweden are still nicer than any part of Turkey. But Sweden is getting more and more un-nice, and I don't mean just politically. I mean demographically.

    I agree that the Turks are politically nasty and brutal. But they believe in Turkishness. So, nice or un-nice, Turks will be Turks. But will Swedes be masters of their own nation in 50 yrs? I doubt it.

    Turks have the Will to be Turks. Swedes have lost the Will to be Swedes.

    No matter now nice a people and nation, without will to identity and land, it is game over.

    My main objection is thst your judgment is premature because it is hard to believe the Swedes will continue to be so blind and foolish. But I concede your point about the Swedes having lost any will to be Swedes as the admittedly small sample of Swedes that I came across when visiting Stockholm last year, with particular attention to its Muslim community, was pathetically lacking in any sense of Swedishness that was something of value.

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  131. @Wizard of Oz
    Isn't there some distance between going to war or fostering armed insurgency and doing absolutely nothing in word pr deed even abstention to show disapproval and put some pressure on. Would you invite into your house someone you knew had deceitfully deprived his siblings of their fair share of a family inheritance or would you say "none of my business, it's a family fight and he may get away with it in court mostly because it will cost too much for the siblings he has impoverished to take him on"?

    Turkey is a sovereign country with a sovereign people. It is their business if they want Erdogan or not, and their business to deal with it however they decide. It has nothing to do with us. If you want to join a fight against Erdogan as a mercenary, be my guest, but don’t involve my family, my country or my money.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You have repeated yourself and just imagined what I might have been willing to support as I said nothing to suggest support for your imagined mer8cenary activity.

    What about (just to give you a concrete example) privately organised boycotts of Turkish exports or sporting teams.

    Can you explain why Turkey's sovereignty should affect your judgment on that?

    Try thinking of your neighbouring state's sovereign government administering criminal justice and prisons in a way which means people are convicted according to the local laws administered by a notoriously corrupt police force and cowardly judgea and then treated inhumanely without any regard for their human rights or health.

  132. @iffen
    that was so far beyond the pale

    Speaking of the Pale, there is some very desirable real estate there compared to the West Bank.

    What's the Hebrew word for irredentist?

    Well, if anyone you would know it would be you.

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  133. @Wizard of Oz
    And the Kurds have a much higher birthrate than the Turks do they not?

    More than double the rate, if Wikipedia is to be believed. (Kurds I have met tend to regard two children in a family to be a ridiculously small number.) Kurdish areas are both poorer and more feudal than most other parts of Turkey, and that tends to mean a higher birth rate. Erdogan has encouraged Turks to have more children, perhaps to try and stave off the population time bomb.

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  134. @iffen
    that was so far beyond the pale

    Speaking of the Pale, there is some very desirable real estate there compared to the West Bank.

    What's the Hebrew word for irredentist?

    What’s the Hebrew word for irredentist?

    Hamas

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  135. @woodNfish
    Turkey is a sovereign country with a sovereign people. It is their business if they want Erdogan or not, and their business to deal with it however they decide. It has nothing to do with us. If you want to join a fight against Erdogan as a mercenary, be my guest, but don't involve my family, my country or my money.

    You have repeated yourself and just imagined what I might have been willing to support as I said nothing to suggest support for your imagined mer8cenary activity.

    What about (just to give you a concrete example) privately organised boycotts of Turkish exports or sporting teams.

    Can you explain why Turkey’s sovereignty should affect your judgment on that?

    Try thinking of your neighbouring state’s sovereign government administering criminal justice and prisons in a way which means people are convicted according to the local laws administered by a notoriously corrupt police force and cowardly judgea and then treated inhumanely without any regard for their human rights or health.

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  136. @German_reader
    "Fisk, Petras, Arriba! Chomsky, many others, never deign to reply BTL. Petras does seem to react at times, but never posts BTL."

    I don't think the people you mention even look at the site here, I'd say UNZ just republishes their articles which had originally been published elsewhere (e.g. Fisk and Cockburn in the Independent). It's not surprising they never reply.

    Well, I am not in the association that Mr. Unz runs, though I think that it is pretty good and would like to help more.

    As far as I know, your point is badly wrong. Except for the articles specifically written for unz.com, the agent or writer is contacted for permission. I made a comment earlier in the last 24 hrs that may have annoyed Ilana Mercer, she is fairly major, she does engage with commentors at times.

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer, others, they are likely to reply to a revelant comment.

    Fisk, Arriba! Chomsky (never heard of her before here) etc. know that they are published here, but choose to ignore any potential debate.

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    • Replies: @German_reader

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer
     
    Yes, but their content (apart from Derbyshire's who probably just pops in here now and then because he reads Sailer) is specifically created for this site. There just is no reason for someone like Cockburn to reply to something here.
    Anyway, if you think I'm wrong, ask Ron Unz about this, maybe he can clarify matters to your satisfaction.
  137. @Moi
    I take it you have a problem with an overwhelmingly Muslim nation trying to live by the principles of its faith (even as we crow about our Christian-Judaic "values.)

    You neither know anything about Islam or about the history of Islam. However, do try and not display your racism and ignorance.

    Where to begin. Oh boy.

    First, Islam is not a race, and there are Muslims of all races.

    Second, you’ll never find me (and many other unz commenters) crowing about anything “Christian-Judaic.” In any event, the propaganda term, in the USA and Canada at least, is Judeo-Christian.

    Third, yes, sane people have a problem with Islam. But that doesn’t mean we want nonMuslims governments to invade, bomb, sanction, or threaten Muslim countries. We don’t.

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  138. @JohnDoe
    No more foreign interference on sovereign nations.
    If the Anatolians want him out, let them do it themselves.
    No more CIA coups.
    And actually "bend to the will" of Erdogan is a CHOICE of Western Nations, as they could very well act like they must in the first place and reject anything that's not of their National interests.

    Actually, from the beginning our media reported that Turkey is strictly a secular nation, and it has an Islamic candidate, who is running against the Secular system. The presstitude however, did not have a tone of indignation or reported the dismay of our CIA or NATO?

    In other words, the US deep state acquiesced with the Islamization of Turkey. If the CIA was unhappy with such candidate, that POS would never have been in office.

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  139. @Che Guava
    Well, I am not in the association that Mr. Unz runs, though I think that it is pretty good and would like to help more.

    As far as I know, your point is badly wrong. Except for the articles specifically written for unz.com, the agent or writer is contacted for permission. I made a comment earlier in the last 24 hrs that may have annoyed Ilana Mercer, she is fairly major, she does engage with commentors at times.

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer, others, they are likely to reply to a revelant comment.

    Fisk, Arriba! Chomsky (never heard of her before here) etc. know that they are published here, but choose to ignore any potential debate.

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer

    Yes, but their content (apart from Derbyshire’s who probably just pops in here now and then because he reads Sailer) is specifically created for this site. There just is no reason for someone like Cockburn to reply to something here.
    Anyway, if you think I’m wrong, ask Ron Unz about this, maybe he can clarify matters to your satisfaction.

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    • Replies: @Che Guava
    I don't think I mentioned Cnckburn, so that is your interpolation.

    It is an interesting addition to the list, because, while Fisk is not an idiot as a commentator, it is easy to see that Patrhck Cockburn is far braver in actually being on the ground and reporting from direct knowledge. As he points out, reporting from a 'rebel' area is a death wish. This is why we only get lies from liars (like the 'white helmets').
  140. @Talha
    Hey Cato,

    Turkey will become a little less European, but a lot more authentic.
     
    Being a traditional Muslim, I'm all for this and think we should stay the hell out, but I have two particular concerns:
    1) I hope extremists vigilantes or mobs are not allowed free reign to oppress minorities
    2) That this consolidation of power was not done by principle and rule of law, but by manipulation and heavy handedness

    This is exactly what I despised about the secular nationalists under Attaturk, so why should I approve it now simply because an Islam-oriented government does it. Simply due to a change of hats/turbans?

    Peace.

    Hi Talha,
    Totally agree, one oppressor (secular), replaced by another (supposedly pious), with the same vengeance against the original native people of the land (Kurds), while hoarding as much power as the previous thugs. The cowards in the west have their lips sealed. A bully can only go after the weak and defenseless (remember bullies in primary schools). One is a dictator (not our puppet), and the other one is an ally (our puppet). Hypocrites!!!

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  141. @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Apolonius, you are quite right. My article is about Turkey. I have written about Russian elsewhere. I note this evening that Turkey is now threatening to attack US troops who are accompanying Kurds in Syria and Iraq. Nice. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/may/3/turkey-threatens-strike-us-forces-partnered-kurdis/

    Mr. Giraldi,

    Neither the Turks nor the American troops have ANY business being in Syria… or in Iraq for that matter
    Both are in Syria illegally, against International Law.
    The only troops that were invited by the Syrian government to help fight the various Takfiri groups backed by ZUSA itself and its various partners in crime, are those of Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

    ZUSA is using the opportunistic Kurds to try to dismember Syria.

    Mr. Giraldi, the excuse to fight ISIS is merely the pretext to carry on with the destruction of Syria.
    After all, ZUSA helped nurture/create ISIS, as that DIA leaked document, plus ZUSA’s own fake war on ISIS, amply reveal. Recall that after months of ZUSAs alleged air campaign against ISIS, the group only grew… it took Russian airstrikes and the Iranian backed PMU to finally start pushing DAESH back, and really degrade them.

    Furthermore, ZUSA has been fully supporting, if indirectly, the Nusra Front, now ‘Tahrir al-Sham’. ZUSA’s government has, in fact, done its utmost, to shield Nusra from Syrian and its allies attacks, under the excuse that its own illegal armed terrorists are too entangled, i.e, fight together, with Nusra… which is true btw.
    In 2016, Jürgen Todenhöfer interviewed an Al-Nusra Commander, who stated: “The Americans stand on our side”.

    Despite all the artificial focus on DAESH, the Nusra gang is actually more dangerous to Syria.

    Read More
    • Agree: Rurik, Kiza
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    I have NEVER approved of the presence of US or Turkish troops in Syria - quite the contrary. I am merely identifying the excuse being used by the US and Turkey to be there. That is not an endorsement of their arguments.
  142. Hi Phil

    Another 100+ judges and prosecutors fired with charges pending:

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/turkey-sacks-107-judges-and-prosecutors-linked-to-gulen/2017/05/05/6b79afdc-31ab-11e7-a335-fa0ae1940305_story.html?utm_term=.7ad1b0de1017

    Well over 4,000 fired to now in this category. The ‘sultan’ appears well on his way to becoming a one man politburo where policy demand servicing Erdogan’s paranoia supersede rule of law

    Read More
  143. @L.K
    Mr. Giraldi,

    Neither the Turks nor the American troops have ANY business being in Syria... or in Iraq for that matter
    Both are in Syria illegally, against International Law.
    The only troops that were invited by the Syrian government to help fight the various Takfiri groups backed by ZUSA itself and its various partners in crime, are those of Russia, Iran and Hezbollah.

    ZUSA is using the opportunistic Kurds to try to dismember Syria.

    Mr. Giraldi, the excuse to fight ISIS is merely the pretext to carry on with the destruction of Syria.
    After all, ZUSA helped nurture/create ISIS, as that DIA leaked document, plus ZUSA's own fake war on ISIS, amply reveal. Recall that after months of ZUSAs alleged air campaign against ISIS, the group only grew... it took Russian airstrikes and the Iranian backed PMU to finally start pushing DAESH back, and really degrade them.

    Furthermore, ZUSA has been fully supporting, if indirectly, the Nusra Front, now 'Tahrir al-Sham'. ZUSA's government has, in fact, done its utmost, to shield Nusra from Syrian and its allies attacks, under the excuse that its own illegal armed terrorists are too entangled, i.e, fight together, with Nusra... which is true btw.
    In 2016, Jürgen Todenhöfer interviewed an Al-Nusra Commander, who stated: "The Americans stand on our side".

    Despite all the artificial focus on DAESH, the Nusra gang is actually more dangerous to Syria.

    I have NEVER approved of the presence of US or Turkish troops in Syria – quite the contrary. I am merely identifying the excuse being used by the US and Turkey to be there. That is not an endorsement of their arguments.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Hello Mr.Giraldi,

    That's ok, I never said you did.

    Unfortunately, most people don't quite understand that ZUSA has been de facto allied with terrorists in Syria, going so far as propping them up, however indirectly or covertly.
    This from the start.
    So, I was pointing these facts out.
    Late in Obama's second term, ZUSA, angry that Syria and allies had liberated the part of Aleppo under Al-Qaeda and friends, deliberately launched air strikes on a strategic SAA position in Deir Ezzor, under long ISIS siege, and wiped them out, paving the way for ISIS to take this high ground over the military airport, the only significant supply line for the embattled Syrian troops and 150 K plus civilians. This gave ISIS fire control over the airport.
    Do you remember that?
    The idea was clearly to help ISIS take Deir Ezzor. So far, this has been prevented by the stiff and skilled resistance of the SAA backed by local militiamen, led by the 'mad Druze', General Issam Zahreddine.
    ZUSA continues to use ISIS, it appears that it is trying its best to flush isis forces towards besieged Deir Ezzor and also central Homs province. Disgusting.
    If there were more Americans like you, Mr. Giraldi, ZUSA might have a chance at becoming a normal country... it could even become USA as opposed to ZUSA! :-)
    Best wishes.
  144. @German_reader

    Sailer, Dinh. Derb, Karlin, Giraldi, Mercer
     
    Yes, but their content (apart from Derbyshire's who probably just pops in here now and then because he reads Sailer) is specifically created for this site. There just is no reason for someone like Cockburn to reply to something here.
    Anyway, if you think I'm wrong, ask Ron Unz about this, maybe he can clarify matters to your satisfaction.

    I don’t think I mentioned Cnckburn, so that is your interpolation.

    It is an interesting addition to the list, because, while Fisk is not an idiot as a commentator, it is easy to see that Patrhck Cockburn is far braver in actually being on the ground and reporting from direct knowledge. As he points out, reporting from a ‘rebel’ area is a death wish. This is why we only get lies from liars (like the ‘white helmets’).

    Read More
    • Replies: @German_reader
    Agree, I find Cockburn quite informative as well, one of the few sources about the current situation in Syria/Iraq where I get the impression we get close to what's really going on there. Sadly pretty much an exception in the mainstream media.
  145. @Che Guava
    I don't think I mentioned Cnckburn, so that is your interpolation.

    It is an interesting addition to the list, because, while Fisk is not an idiot as a commentator, it is easy to see that Patrhck Cockburn is far braver in actually being on the ground and reporting from direct knowledge. As he points out, reporting from a 'rebel' area is a death wish. This is why we only get lies from liars (like the 'white helmets').

    Agree, I find Cockburn quite informative as well, one of the few sources about the current situation in Syria/Iraq where I get the impression we get close to what’s really going on there. Sadly pretty much an exception in the mainstream media.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Che Guava
    Ha ha, I am bored and work tomorrow, but

    Cockburn > Fisk > Margolis.

    Or perhaps, Fisk and Margolis are on the same level, just different lines.
  146. https://www.turkishminute.com/2017/05/05/arabic-signboards-being-removed-in-various-turkish-provinces/

    Chauvinism has never been a scoundrel’s last resort in Turkey, and the AKP has probably noticed that Syrian refugees are not terribly popular and that many Turks associate the AKP with them, so this is probably why signs are being taken down.

    Read More
  147. @Philip Giraldi
    I have NEVER approved of the presence of US or Turkish troops in Syria - quite the contrary. I am merely identifying the excuse being used by the US and Turkey to be there. That is not an endorsement of their arguments.

    Hello Mr.Giraldi,

    That’s ok, I never said you did.

    Unfortunately, most people don’t quite understand that ZUSA has been de facto allied with terrorists in Syria, going so far as propping them up, however indirectly or covertly.
    This from the start.
    So, I was pointing these facts out.
    Late in Obama’s second term, ZUSA, angry that Syria and allies had liberated the part of Aleppo under Al-Qaeda and friends, deliberately launched air strikes on a strategic SAA position in Deir Ezzor, under long ISIS siege, and wiped them out, paving the way for ISIS to take this high ground over the military airport, the only significant supply line for the embattled Syrian troops and 150 K plus civilians. This gave ISIS fire control over the airport.
    Do you remember that?
    The idea was clearly to help ISIS take Deir Ezzor. So far, this has been prevented by the stiff and skilled resistance of the SAA backed by local militiamen, led by the ‘mad Druze’, General Issam Zahreddine.
    ZUSA continues to use ISIS, it appears that it is trying its best to flush isis forces towards besieged Deir Ezzor and also central Homs province. Disgusting.
    If there were more Americans like you, Mr. Giraldi, ZUSA might have a chance at becoming a normal country… it could even become USA as opposed to ZUSA! :-)
    Best wishes.

    Read More
  148. Welcome to politics Islamic-fascist style. Coming to a European and an American continent near you very soon.

    Read More
  149. @Talha
    Hey Apolonius,

    Find me the Muslim scholars who approve of this behavior then we can talk - the burden of proof is on you. Otherwise, the Shariah requires also that the father (or guardian [wali]) approves of the marriage - thus it legally accommodates both sides' concerns; the bride and the guardian. And it has a mechanism for the guardian to be able to take the marriage to the court/judge and have it annulled if his opposition to it is grounded in legitimate concerns and the girl just went off and got married without his consent.

    I'm actually glad that if Muslims in the West will not live up to the standards of behavior required by the sacred law that the secular authorities will enforce it on them anyway - that's awesome. Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions.

    Peace.

    Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions

    Let me get this straight: You’re saying that it is now the responsibility of “Western governments” to safeguard the moral consciences of Moslems (who consider themselves, just like their blood-cousins the Jews, to be the most “devout” people on earth) -by REVOKING for them and everyone else the Western democratic freedoms we have taken for granted for centuries in our own lands – Instead of it being each and every MOSLEM’s own individual responsibility in whatever country he or she lives in, to develop moral fibre and safeguard his OWN conscience, by intelligent and sincere personal decision-making ?

    I always believed based on a wealth of personal experience that most Moslems were lying, cheating, duplicitous, immoral, worthless humbugs and hypocrites, but your barely-believable, utterly moral-free, finger-pointing chutzpah here just takes my breath away.

    I thank God every day that I wasn’t born Moslem.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Dave B,

    You’re saying
     
    Nope. Anybody who knows me would know I was being facetious. you didn't pick up on it - that's fine. Even if I was actually serious - nobody could objectively read this into my words.

    REVOKING for them and everyone else
     
    The rest of your comment (insults really) is based on the primary incorrect understanding so needs no further elaboration.

    You don't seem to want to dialog, you want a punching bag...not interested.

    Peace.

  150. @anon
    "Turkey will become a little less European".

    Turkey was never a European country. Its return to despotism is consistent with being an Islamic country.

    So simple, and yet so profound.

    Read More
  151. Must be challenged? WHY?

    Erdogan rules with the consent of his own people. They came out en masse to defend him against a Soros coup. That’s real democracy.

    Let’s worry about our own frauds for once. We won’t, of course. Not until DC and NYC are taken off the earth. Soon, please.

    Read More
  152. @German_reader
    Agree, I find Cockburn quite informative as well, one of the few sources about the current situation in Syria/Iraq where I get the impression we get close to what's really going on there. Sadly pretty much an exception in the mainstream media.

    Ha ha, I am bored and work tomorrow, but

    Cockburn > Fisk > Margolis.

    Or perhaps, Fisk and Margolis are on the same level, just different lines.

    Read More
  153. @Dave Bowman

    Maybe someday Western governments will likewise prohibit the sale of alcohol and pornography to Muslims in their jurisdictions
     
    Let me get this straight: You're saying that it is now the responsibility of "Western governments" to safeguard the moral consciences of Moslems (who consider themselves, just like their blood-cousins the Jews, to be the most "devout" people on earth) -by REVOKING for them and everyone else the Western democratic freedoms we have taken for granted for centuries in our own lands - Instead of it being each and every MOSLEM's own individual responsibility in whatever country he or she lives in, to develop moral fibre and safeguard his OWN conscience, by intelligent and sincere personal decision-making ?

    I always believed based on a wealth of personal experience that most Moslems were lying, cheating, duplicitous, immoral, worthless humbugs and hypocrites, but your barely-believable, utterly moral-free, finger-pointing chutzpah here just takes my breath away.

    I thank God every day that I wasn't born Moslem.

    Hey Dave B,

    You’re saying

    Nope. Anybody who knows me would know I was being facetious. you didn’t pick up on it – that’s fine. Even if I was actually serious – nobody could objectively read this into my words.

    REVOKING for them and everyone else

    The rest of your comment (insults really) is based on the primary incorrect understanding so needs no further elaboration.

    You don’t seem to want to dialog, you want a punching bag…not interested.

    Peace.

    Read More
  154. @naro
    The Middle East was most stable under Turkish hegemony for many centuries. Turkey is the Sunni defense against Iranian Shiia expansionism. Erdogan need international support.

    You are absolutely right that Turkey stabilized the ME for centuries. But turkey was always an enemy of Europe from its slave raiding to the constant successful attempts to expand into Europe.

    Read More
  155. @jilles dykstra
    What's the proposal ?

    My Dutch hairdressser, a 'Turk' born here, he does my hair for the last twelve years, is a devout Muslim.
    I did discuss politics with him, until maybe a year ago, when we discovered that Dutch born Turks are more Turkish than Turkish immigrants, they now have an own political party, DENK, that states that assimilation is superfluous, and talks about Erdogan as 'our president'.
    My hairdresser explained to me how Atatürk, who in 1920 or so created the Turkish state, against the intentions of France, USA, GB and Greece, estranged the Turkish people from religion.

    He's right, Atatürk did anything possible to westernise Turkey, forbade even the fez, British hat makers made fortunes exporting hats.
    A devout Turkish Islamic girl, speaking from Istanbul, in perfect english, explained how Erdogan had liberated her, now she can attend university wearing her religious symbol, he head scarf.

    Stalin tried to eradicate religion, he failed, Putin is more sensible, he cooperates with the Russian orthodox catholic church.
    Erdogan does the same, in my opinion.

    Islam cannot separate civil laws from religious laws, to me it is their problem, I regret what's happening there, but I do not see how we could interfere.
    Or if we did, it would not have the opposite effect.
    I do hope that in time even Muslims will understand that a religious society cannot bring prosperity, but it may take dozens of years, even more.
    In the meantime, I hope that conditions in jails will improve, and the death penalty will be an exception
    But even the USA still has the death penalty.

    Strange that a ferocious Calvinist anti Catholic should support conservative anti liberal modernism Islam.

    Read More
  156. @woodNfish

    Erdogan's electoral fraud must be challenged
     
    Maybe, but that is up to the Turkish people and none of our business.

    Exactly my opinion re Giraldi’s idea that we should control Turkish elections. Maybe America should look into electoral fraud and other problems in our electoral process.

    For instance, the state of Georgia Elections Commission discovered that homeland security hacked into the electoral databases of every county in Georgia.

    That is unprecedented. Then there is the register to vote via a mail in card. These cards are in every post office, public library, community center, and most state and local government offices. Anyone can pick up 10, 20 or 50 of these cards and fill them out with a different name but the same address.
    Then check “I want to vote by mail instead of in person”. The mail in ballots in all those names will arrive a few weeks before the election. Simply fill them out and but back in the mail.

    And, viola anyone in America whether a citizen or legal or illegal immigrant can vote under numerous names in an election without fear of any investigation.

    Occasionally a postal carrier will send an email to the local elections commissions that he or she has delivered 60 mail in ballots under 60 different names to a one bedroom apartment but investigations are never done.

    Maybe America should clean up its own house before reforming the rest of the world.

    True story from before my state had mail in voter registration cards on the counters of every government building for anyone to take.

    Back in the olden days we had to actually go down to an elections office to register to vote.

    My sister and her husband lived in Geany at the time and my house was their official US address. My sister was a teacher and every summer would visit me often with European friends.

    Well, one year she wanted to register to vote of course by absentee ballot from her house in Germany. So she went down to the registrar of voters with her passport, California drivers license and international dr license.

    She came back absolutely shocked that she was not asked for any form of identification or proof of address and just given the registration and absentee ballot forms.

    So her friends decided to see if they could register to vote in American elections. Same thing, no request for identification, no request for proof of address. One was German and had no accent. But the other two were English and had noticeable accents.

    They all received their absentee ballots in Germany and all voted against President Reagan in both his elections.

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  157. @jilles dykstra
    One aspect of the Erdogan problem is that even Dutch citizens of Turkish descent are seen by him as his citizens, the problem is aggravated because many Dutch 'Turks' have the same, in real Dutch eyes, weird idea.
    Therefore the double nationality, one cannot even dissociate oneself from the Turkish nationality, is hotly debated all over W Europe.
    Israel and Morocco also have the opinion that one always remains either Israeli or Moroccan.

    The Kurd problem is a real problem, my hairdresser says contemptuously 'they want a third of Turkey'.
    The Balkan peoples alas have a long history of being unable te live together.
    The fault in the Turkish Kurdish problem rests on both sides, in my view, Kurds in the past often fought among themselves.
    But indeed, Atatürk betrayed them, Kurds fought on his side against GB, France and Greece, they got nothing in return.

    In my view there is no reason at all for the west to interfere in Turkey, let them sort out their own business.
    Russia I do not see as any threat, I welcome weakening of NATO.

    But indeed, Atatürk betrayed them, Kurds fought on his side against GB, France and Greece, they got nothing in return.

    Hey they got to help kill off the Armenians and Greeks, so that must have felt good no?

    Read More
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