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The Tale of the Brothers Awan
Debbie Wasserman-Schultz in the middle of a new scandal
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There has been surprisingly little media follow-up on the story about the July 25th Dulles Airport arrest of House of Representatives’ employed Pakistani-American IT specialist Imran Awan, who was detained for bank fraud while he was allegedly fleeing to Pakistan. The mainstream media somewhat predictably produced minimal press coverage before the story died. The speed at which the news vanished has prompted some observers, including Breitbart, to sound the alarm over a suspected cover-up of possible exposure of classified information or even espionage that just might be part of the story that we are now calling Russiagate.

To be sure, the tale is a strange one with plenty of unsavory links. Thirty-seven year old Awan, his wife, sister-in-law and two brothers Abid and Jamal worked as IT administrators, full and part-time, for between 30 and 80 congressmen, all Democrats, including former Democratic National Committee (DNC) chairman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. They did not have security clearances and it is not even certain that they were in any way checked out before being hired. Nor were their claimed skills at IT administration confirmed as their work pattern reportedly turned out to consist more of absences than time spent in the House offices. One congressional IT staffer described them as “ghost employees.”

At one point, Imran brought into the House as a colleague one Rao Abbas, someone to whom he owed money, best distinguished by his being recently fired by McDonald’s. Abbas lived in the basement of a house owned by Imran’s wife as a rental property. He may have had no qualifications at all to perform IT but the congressmen in question did not seem to notice. Abbas wound up working, on the rare occasions that he went into the building, in the office of Congressman Patrick Murphy, who was at the time a member of the House Intelligence Committee as well as for Florida Congressman Theo Deutch. He was paid $250,000.

To cover for all the non-working but on the payroll employees, Imran also hired a high school friend Haseeb Rana, who actually did know something about computers. Rana reportedly did “all the work” and kept wanting to quit for that reason. It was also against House rules for an IT administrator to fill in for someone else, as Rana routinely did, since each such employee had be personally registered by the congressman.

The Awans and their two friends were all taken on as salaried employees of the House of Representatives at senior civil service level paygrades of ca. $165,000 annually, which normally is what is paid to highly experienced senior managers or chiefs of staff. Imran’s younger brother Jamal was only twenty years old when he was hired at that level in 2014.

The process of granting security clearances to Congressional staff is not exactly transparent, but it is not unlike the procedures for other government agencies. The office seeking the clearance for a staff member must put in a request, some kind of investigation follows, and the applicant must then sign a non-disclosure agreement before the authorization is granted. Sometimes Congress pushes the process by demanding that its staff have access above and beyond the normal “need to know.” In March 2016, for example, eight Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee requested that their staffs be given access to top secret sensitive compartmented information.

It is not known if the Awans, who were working for several Intelligence Committee members simultaneously, would have been involved or had access to the computers able to pull up classified material being used by those staffers, but Buzzfeed, in its initial reporting on the investigation of the Awans family, repeated the concerns of a Congressman that the suspects might have “had access to the House of Representatives’ entire computer network.” Indeed, it is difficult to imagine that that was not the case. In office environments, the IT administrators routinely ask for passwords if they are checking out the system. WikiLeaks emails confirm that Imran certainly had passwords relating to Congressman Debbie Wasserman-Schultz as well as to others on her staff.

Congress paid the Awans more than $4 million between 2004 and 2016 at their $165,000 salary level, a sum that some sources suggest to be three or four times higher than the norm for government contractor IT specialists performing similar work at the same level of alleged competency. Four of the Awans were among the 500 highest paid of the 15,000 congressional staffers. The considerable and consistent level of overpayment has not been explained by the congressmen involved. In spite of all that income being generated, Imran Awan declared bankruptcy in 2010 claiming losses of $1 million on a car business that he owned in Falls Church Virginia that ran up debts and borrowed money that it failed to repay. The business was named Cars International A, abbreviated on its business cards as CIA.

The Awans family also was noted for its brushes with the law and internal discord, though it is doubtful if the congressional employers were aware of their outside-of-the-office behavior. The brothers were on the receiving end of a number of traffic citations, including DUI, and were constantly scheming to generate income, including what must have been a hilarious phone conversation to their credit union in which Imran pretended to be his own wife in order to wire money to Pakistan. They were on bad terms with their father and step-mother, including forging a document to cheat their step-mother of an insurance payment and even holding her “captive” so she could not see their dying father. Their father even changed his last name to dissociate himself from them.

As of February 2016, the Awans came under suspicion for having set up an operation involving double billing as well as the theft and reselling of government owned computer equipment. It was also believed that they had somehow obtained entry to much of the House of Representatives’ computer network as well as to other information in the individual offices’ separate computer systems that they were in theory not allowed to access. The Capitol Hill Police began an investigation and quietly alerted the congressmen involved that there might be a problem. Most stopped employing the Awan family members and associates, but Wasserman-Schultz kept Imran on the payroll until the day after he was actually arrested.

Some of those defending the Awans, to include Wasserman-Schultz and the family lawyer, have insisted that he and his family were the victims of “an anti-Muslim, right-wing smear job,” though there is no actual evidence to suggest that is the case. They also claim that the bank fraud that led to the arrest, in which Imran obtained a home equity loan for $165,000 from the Congressional Federal Credit Union based on a house that he owned and claimed to live in in Lorton Virginia, was largely a misunderstanding It has been described as something “extremely minor” by his lawyer Chris Gowen, a high priced Washington attorney who has worked for the Clintons personally, the Clinton Foundation and the Clinton Global Initiative.

It turned out that Imran and his wife no longer lived in the house which had been turned into a rental property, a clear case of bank fraud. The Awans had tenants in the house, an ex-Marine and his Naval officer wife, who were very suspicious about a large quantity of what appeared to be government sourced computer equipment and supplies, all material that had been left behind by the owners. They contacted the FBI, which discovered hard drives that appeared to have been deliberately destroyed.

The FBI is certainly interested in the theft of government computers but it is also looking into the possibility that the Awans were using their ability to access and possibly exploit sensitive information stored in the House of Representatives’ computer network as well as through Wasserman-Schultz’s iPad, which Imran had access to and was connected to the Democratic National Committee server. It is believed that Imran sent stolen government files to a remote personal server. It may have been located in his former residence in Lorton Virginia, where the smashed equipment was found, or as far away as Pakistan. As Imran Awan is a dual-national, born in Pakistan, the possibility of espionage also had to be considered. By some accounts the Awan family traveled back to Pakistan frequently, where Imran was treated royally by local officialdom, suggesting that he may have been doing favors for the not very friendly government in Islamabad.

Considering the possible criminal activity that Imran and his family might have been engaged in and which was still under investigation, the Capitol Police and FBI determined that he should be stopped in his attempt to flee to Pakistan. The charge that Awan was actually arrested on at the airport, bank fraud, was an easy way to hold him as it was well documented. It allows the other more serious investigations to continue, so the argument that Imran Awan is only being held over a minor matter is not necessarily correct.

Awans had wired the credit union money and some cash of his own to Pakistan, as part of a $283,000 transfer that was made in January. His wife Hina Alvi also left the U.S. two months later. She was searched by Customs officers and it was determined that she had on her $12,400 in cash. She also had with her their three children, and numerous boxes containing household goods and clothing. It was clear that she did not intend to come back but there has been no explanation why she was even allowed to leave since carrying more than $10,000 out of the country without reporting it is a felony.

As Imran Awan reportedly had access to Wasserman-Schultz’s iPad, he presumably also was able to see the incriminating Hillary Clinton emails. He used a laptop in her office as well that was, according to investigators, concealed in an “unused crevice” in the Rayburn House Office Building. It is currently being examined by police but Wasserman-Schultz tried strenuously to recover it before it could be looked at. She pressured the Chief of the Capitol Police Matthew Verderosa to return it, threatening him by saying “you should expect that there will be consequences.” Initially Wasserman-Schultz refused to cooperate with the police, refusing to provide her passwords and not permitting them to open her computers, but Fox News reports that she has recently apparently allowed the authorities to do a scan.

There is another odd connection of Imran Awan that goes back to the neocon circle around Paul Wolfowitz during the Iraq War. In late 2002 and early 2003, Wolfowitz regularly met secretly with a group of Iraqi expatriates who resided in the Washington area and were opponents of the Saddam Hussein regime. The Iraqis had not been in their country of birth for many years but they claimed to have regular contact with well-informed family members and political allies. The Iraqi advisers provided Wolfowitz with a now-familiar refrain, i.e. that the Iraqi people would rise up to support invading Americans and overthrow the hated Saddam. They would greet their liberators with bouquets of flowers and shouts of joy.

The Iraqis were headed by one Dr. Ali A. al-Attar, born in Baghdad to Iranian parents in 1963, a 1989 graduate of the American University of Beirut Faculty of Medicine. He subsequently emigrated to the United States and set up a practice in internal medicine in Greenbelt Maryland, a suburb of Washington D.C. Al-Attar eventually expanded his business to include nine practices that he wholly or partly owned in Virginia and Maryland but he eventually lost his license due to “questionable billing practices” as well as “unprofessional conduct” due to having sex with patients

Al-Attar was investigated by the FBI and eventually indicted for large scale health care fraud in 2008-9, which included charging insurance companies more than $2.3 million for services their patients did not actually receive with many of the false claims using names of diplomats and employees enrolled in a group plan at the Egyptian Embassy in Washington. In one case, the doctors claimed an embassy employee visited three of their clinics every 26 days between May 2007 and August 2008 to have the same testing done each time. The insurance company paid the doctors $55,000 for more than 400 nonexistent procedures for the one patient alone.

Dr. Ali A. Al-Attar fled the United States after the indictment to avoid arrest and imprisonment and is now considered a fugitive from justice. Late in 2012 he was observed in Beirut Lebanon conversing with a Hezbollah official. Al-Attar is of interest in this case because he appears to have been a friend of Imran Awan and also loaned him $100,000, which was never repaid. The FBI is currently looking into any possible international espionage specifically involving the two men as Awan and his associates clearly had access to classified information while working in the House of Representatives that would have been of interest to any number of foreign governments.

The Imran Awan case is certainly of considerable interest not only for what the investigation eventually turns up but also for what it reveals about how things actually work in congress and in the government more generally speaking. I don’t know which of the allegations about what might have taken place are true, but there is certainly a lot to consider. Whether the case is investigated and prosecuted without fear or favor will depend on the Department of Justice and FBI, but I for one was appalled to learn that the official who quite likely will oversee the investigation of the Awans is one Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz. If that should actually occur, it would be a huge conflict of interest and it has to be wondered if Wasserman would have the integrity to recuse himself.

There are many questions regarding the Awan case. One might reasonably ask how foreign-born IT specialists are selected and vetted prior to being significantly overpaid and allowed to work on computers in congressional offices. And the ability of those same individuals to keep working even after the relevant congressmen have been warned that their employee was under investigation has to be explained beyond Wasserman-Schultz’s comment that Awan had not committed any crime, which may have been true but one would expect congressmen to err on the side of caution over an issue that could easily have national security ramifications. And how does a recently bankrupt and unemployed Imran Awan wind up with a high-priced lawyer to defend him who is associated with the Clintons? Would that kind of lawyer even take a relatively minor bank fraud case if that were all that is involved? Finally, there are the lingering concerns about the unfortunately well-established Russiagate narrative. Did the Russians really hack into the DNC or were there other possibilities, to include some kind of inside job, a “leak,” carried out by someone working for the government or DNC for reasons that have yet to be determined, possibly even someone actually employed by DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz? There are certainly many issues that the public needs to know more about and so far, there are not enough answers.

[An earlier version of this article appeared on The American Conservative on August 3rd]

 
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  1. It should come as no surprise to anyone that the law is only meant for we ordinary citizens and not for the elite. Those of us who are silently hoping for the indictment of Debbie and Hillary are sure to be sorely disappointed.

    There is no justice anymore in these United States whose domestic and foreign policies are controlled by the deep state. Some days can be so bleak…

    Read More
    • Agree: Sowhat
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Actually, the whole Awan-US Congress case is about the High Treason. No security clearances. The open access to the classified documents of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (oh the irony!) and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
    There are should be arrests made of those congresspeople who allowed the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity by inviting and financing the non-qualified personnel (fraudulent hiring).
    An important question is, who pays Chris Gowen, a very expensive and well-connected lawyer, for the defense of the documented fraudster and possible spy.
    That Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz oversees the investigation is a scandal of gigantic proportions.
    Those making the presstituting peeps about Russiangate should be from now on pummelled with the facts of the Tale of the Brothers Awan.
    , @Sowhat
    I agreed but it sure would be nice if Sessions would get her...and her brother.
    , @Man on the street
    The killing of Seth Rich is not in the news. The killing of AG Lynch pilot is not in the news, the scandal of theft from Haity charity funds by the Clinton crime family is not in the news. The funding of Hillary election campaign by Qatar and Saudi Arabia is not in the news. The American Uranium given to the Russian by the Clintons is not in the news. I can go on and on. My point is our population has been converted to robots. The media will tell them to get angry, and they get angry. They tell them to think sh't happen, and they will disregard theft and murder. Our media is the number one enemy to this republic. Trump should save the nukes; instead of bombing N.Korea, he should bomb The NY Times and the Washington Post? Our destruction is coming from within! Idiots like McCain, for example should be behind bars in Guantanamo?
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  2. Ace says:

    Foreign-born people should be barred for life from holding any kind of security clearance. I mean in the highly unlikely event I were to become a Chinese citizen (and be 40 years younger), would the Chinese be so stupid as to give me a clearance and allow me to work in a key government office?

    Obviously not but forget”obviously” when we’re talking about the U.S.A.

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    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Foreign-born people should be barred for life from holding any kind of security clearance.
     
    Several years ago, I was denied employment in an aerospace company because I was considered a security risk for having relatives abroad. This was done in spite of the fact that I was already working for the same company in another division. In the end, I had the last laugh, because a week later a company employee, a native born white American, was arrested for passing out secret information.
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  3. Ivy says:

    Where is the outrage? Where is the coverage? Wolf, Anderson, Jake, Erin, anybody at CNN? Of course, I don’t expect them to acknowledge the issue.

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    • Agree: David
    • Replies: @Tinker
    If you really want to know what is going on with the Awan Bros., DWS, DNC, Hilary, Dem Congressmen go to this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZnOS1O6k0
    IT IS AMAZING WHAT ISN'T BEING COVERED BY THE MSM
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  4. The Department of Justice needs to do its job looking at the Clintons, the DNC, Wasserman-Schultz, Donna Brazile and others. The stench of corruption is appalling, and the Russia thing looks more like a fraudulent story to keep the pressure off, particularly since the phony dossier which started it was compiled at the behest of a political consultancy which usually works for the same crowd. I think it is about time that Mueller’s fishing expedition be closed down and the necessary draining of the swamp be commenced.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Here is an excellent report, expert and measured, on the stupid and fast-melting Russiangate. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-10/new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-year’s-dnc-hack

    "On the evening of July 5, 2016, 1,976 megabytes of data were downloaded from the DNC’s server. The operation took 87 seconds. This yields a transfer rate of 22.7 megabytes per second.
    These statistics are matters of record and essential to disproving the hack theory. No Internet service provider, such as a hacker would have had to use in mid-2016, was capable of downloading data at this speed. Compounding this contradiction, Guccifer claimed to have run his hack from Romania, which, for numerous reasons technically called delivery overheads, would slow down the speed of a hack even further from maximum achievable speeds.
    In addition, there is the adulteration of the documents Guccifer 2.0 posted on June 15, when he made his first appearance. This came to light when researchers penetrated what Folden calls Guccifer’s top layer of metadata and analyzed what was in the layers beneath. They found that the first five files Guccifer made public had each been run, via ordinary cut-and-paste, through a single template that effectively immersed them in what could plausibly be cast as Russian fingerprints. They were not: The Russian markings were artificially inserted prior to posting. “It’s clear,” another forensics investigator self-identified as HET, wrote in a report on this question, “that metadata was deliberately altered and documents were deliberately pasted into a Russianified [W]ord document with Russian language settings and style headings.”
    Behind the ICA lie other indefensible realities. The FBI has never examined the DNC’s computer servers—an omission that is beyond preposterous. It has instead relied on the reports produced by Crowdstrike, a firm that drips with conflicting interests well beyond the fact that it is in the DNC’s employ. Dmitri Alperovitch, its co-founder and chief technology officer, is on the record as vigorously anti-Russian. He is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, which suffers the same prejudice. Problems such as this are many."

    Who has been conducting the forensics: "The chief researchers active on the DNC case are four: William Binney, formerly the NSA’s technical director for world geopolitical and military analysis and designer of many agency programs now in use; Kirk Wiebe, formerly a senior analyst at the NSA’s SIGINT Automation Research Center; Edward Loomis, formerly technical director in the NSA’s Office of Signal Processing; and Ray McGovern, an intelligence analyst for nearly three decades and formerly chief of the CIA’s Soviet Foreign Policy Branch. Most of these men have decades of experience in matters concerning Russian intelligence and the related technologies." No ziocons. Quelle surprise!

    Well, a group of loyal Americans with the highest expertise in techs on one side and an opportunistic Jewish Russophobe on the other. Alperovitch joins Debby and her brother Mr. Wasserman, who has been also in charge of the investigation into the murder of Seth Righ, as a main suspect in the slanderous and highly dangerous Russiangate. Other brainless and Israel-minded Democrats are with Debby for now.

    Seth Rich (January 3, 1989 – July 10, 2016) was an American employee for the Democratic National Committee (DNC) who was fatally shot in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. His murder is unsolved. Debby' brother Mr. Wasserman has been in charge of the stalled investigation.
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  5. Occam’s razor … she schtupped him, and she must have really enjoyed it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Good God, I'd rather have my nuts bit off by a Doberman than consort with that witch.
    , @Alden
    I don't think Debbie and Awan had anything sexual going on. They were ghost employees who seldom showed up. They probably bribed Debbie to get the job and then gave her kickbacks from their salaries and bank loans. That is standard hiring and retention practice in turd world countries.

    They are plenty of do nothing ghost employees in government jobs in DC. Usually its a wife employed by another congress critter. Or not really employed or working, just on the payroll. All the City of Chicago Alderman and Cook County Ill Supervisors had such an arrangement of do nothing wives and relatives on each other's payrolls. The Chicago Sun Times and Tribune were not totally PR agencies for the Demorats at the time so it was a big scandal. Nothing was done of course. Maybe some of the wives and relatives showed up for "work" for a couple weeks, but it continued.

    As far as I know, Nancy Pelosi's children don't seem to have real careers. They sort of drift from some bogus city job to another.
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  6. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    This whole affair sounds like it is more subversion by the ones who control Congress, the Israeli lobbying arm, AIPAC.

    Two reasons for that statement: One is that the MSM, largely owned by American Jews, have barely mentioned this affair and Two, Wasserman-Schultz is one of AIPAC’s Big Guns, the one they use to subvert Congress to Israel’s will.

    Read More
    • Replies: @hooodathunkit

    Occam's sledgehammer - there is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.
     
    So we end up with the shorter Greg Bacon: Imran Awan* is a transgender eevuljo0o operative from Lahore ('the whore') working in the perverted Zionist cause of trans-xism under the direction of the transgender homo-jooo leader Debbie Wasserman (Debbie Was-a-Man) Shultz. In a global conspiracy to corrupt the seed of American . . . etc.

    .
    *Jooo feminine name Awan is Adam and Eve's daughter, who was Abel's sister and lover, and after killing him, Cain had children by her. Incest, murder, double-incest, flight to the east (Pakistan, former jooo land of Nod) to escape justice. It all fits; if you mangle the facts hard enough.
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  7. @The Alarmist
    Occam's razor ... she schtupped him, and she must have really enjoyed it.

    Good God, I’d rather have my nuts bit off by a Doberman than consort with that witch.

    Read More
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  8. Fall of 1979….Iranian students take US Embassy staff and workers hostage in Tehran Iran…

    In response, young Pakistani Muslim Men storm the US Embassy in Karachi Pakistan and hack to death a 19 year old US Marine from Patchogue Long Island……

    Don’t be shocked if the young Pakistani Men who murdered this teenage US Marine 1)have come to the US legally….2)are Democratic Party Voters voting The Historic Native Born White American Majority into a violently persecuted White racial minority within the borders of America….and 3) one of their sons is a Pakistani Muslim “American” West Point Cadet who represents West Point as a color guard at the Super Bowl because there have been too many White Male West Point Color Guards representing West Point Military Academy at past Super Bowls……”AINT THAT AMERICA!!!!….”YOU AND MOHAMMAD…..”

    Pakistani Muslims on Native Born White Christian American Living and Breeding Space?…Who the F ordered this sewage?….Emanuel Cellar?…..Ted Kennedy?….Jacob Javitts?…..Chuck Schumer?

    “AINT THAT AMERICA!!!….YOU AND MOHAMMAD….”

    Read More
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  9. So what the F exactly is MAGA!!!

    ANSWER:MAGA!!!!=0 Pakistani Muslim LEGAL IMMIGRANTS FOREVER!!!+mass expulsion of all Pakistani Muslim “Americans” out of…off of Native Born White Christian American Living and Breeding Space=America…

    Hindu-Sihk India has 250 thousand Indian Troops guarding the India-Pakistan border….go to google images and have a look….

    John Cougar Melloncrap:”AINT THAT AMERICA…..YOU AND KHIZIR KHAN!!!!

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  10. Somebody should write a movie script based on this. It would be better than American Hustle – call it Pakistani Hustle, maybe.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    The pitch would start with, "It's the Sopranos meet the Simpsons."
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  11. annamaria says:
    @Cloak And Dagger
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that the law is only meant for we ordinary citizens and not for the elite. Those of us who are silently hoping for the indictment of Debbie and Hillary are sure to be sorely disappointed.

    There is no justice anymore in these United States whose domestic and foreign policies are controlled by the deep state. Some days can be so bleak...

    Actually, the whole Awan-US Congress case is about the High Treason. No security clearances. The open access to the classified documents of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (oh the irony!) and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
    There are should be arrests made of those congresspeople who allowed the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity by inviting and financing the non-qualified personnel (fraudulent hiring).
    An important question is, who pays Chris Gowen, a very expensive and well-connected lawyer, for the defense of the documented fraudster and possible spy.
    That Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz oversees the investigation is a scandal of gigantic proportions.
    Those making the presstituting peeps about Russiangate should be from now on pummelled with the facts of the Tale of the Brothers Awan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    Yes, one can't help noticing the ongoing Tsunami of Russiagate babble as compared to the remarkable silence concerning actual fraud, security, and treason issues raised by this Awan Brothers scandal.
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  12. To put it in more immediate terms:

    Suppose the police arrest an employee of Mrs. S’s liquor distributorship. They tell Mrs. S that they arrested the guy because they got a tip that he was embezzling from the business, and they further tell Mrs. S that they’ve seized the employee’s loaner laptop as evidence.

    Instead of saying, “Good! Let me know what else you find out about that bastard!” Mrs. S says, “You’d better return that laptop to me, or there will be consequences!”

    What does that tell us? Does it raise any questions about the true nature of Mrs. S’s business?

    Read More
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  13. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    This is a staggering story. What a load of incompetence and coverup. This government is a total sieve. Of course those people were spying. Even if they didn’t want to spy, for whatever reason, the Pakistani government could surely find ways to ‘convince’ them to do so. Most of these politicians appear to be so clueless that it’s difficult to comprehend. It’s just a carnival of taxpayer ripoff in DC.

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    • Replies: @Sowhat
    It could possibly be a case of intensional incompetence. There are a huge number of people IN Congress that are totally committed to destruction from within. The Trojan Horse has been within the gates for a surprising number of years. Trevor Loudon has an interesting video on Amazon titled The Enemies (inclde the "s") Within. If accurate, it IS intensional incompetence. It may be on Youtube as well.
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  14. @Dana Thompson
    Somebody should write a movie script based on this. It would be better than American Hustle - call it Pakistani Hustle, maybe.

    The pitch would start with, “It’s the Sopranos meet the Simpsons.”

    Read More
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  15. I for one was appalled to learn that the official who quite likely will oversee the investigation of the Awans is one Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.

    Yup. And guess what? As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!

    When the hell are Trump and Sessions going to get serious about going after these freaks?

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    • Agree: Rurik, Ivy
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!"

    Amazing. How come that the name "Wasserman" has become spread over the major ongoing DC scandals: The leak of the DNC emails (the pseudo-Russiangate), the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair), and finally, the death of Seth Rich, a DNC employee who went into contact with Wikileaks re the DNC machinations. Looks like American "democracy on the march," Clinton style.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-steven-wasserman-accused-burying-seth-rich-case/
    "The Seth Rich Case: Nucleus of An American Coup Attempt:" http://www.phillip-butler.com/seth-rich-case/

    , @Ace
    An Assistant DA is ultimately responsible for what the DA tells him to be responsible for.
    , @Eagle Eye

    As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!
     
    In a recent broadcast, Michael Savage suddenly savaged what he called "fake news from the right" such as the Seth Rich murder, Pizzagate (which he misrepresented as relating to hookers), etc. The presentation seemed curiously disengaged.

    My guess is that Savage and his family were physically threatened.
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  16. The essence of Debbie Wasserman Schultz=The mass extermination of Christian Russia+the mass extermination of The Historic Native Born White Christian American Majority…..this explains everything….

    Read More
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  17. What if the Awan brothers are “cutouts” for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the “deep state” panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the “deep state” was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn’t had time to consider “Plan B” in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener’s sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous “deep state” Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it’s called, “Debbie Does Dulles”, and its stars include “Many Talented Celebrities”? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I’m guessing the odds are pretty long. I’m betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she’ll file that affidavit if she has to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clark Westwood

    What if the “deep state” panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the “deep state” was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried?
     
    I think those two in particular are beyond the "what if" stage.
    , @Joe Tedesky
    I'm sorry F.G., but what if all the various narratives, which are being supplied to the Seth Rich murder end up only being a way of hiding the truth within plain sight, so as to make it hard to distinguish between the real, and the phony, narratives which have been put in place, as to only confuse us truth seekers? This is how 'conspiracy theories' are made to become conspiracy theories.
    , @Norcal
    F. G. Sanford so good to find you here!
    , @Hibernian
    Your channeling of Judge Nap gets kind of old after about 5 sentences.
    , @Skeptikal
    FG:

    I can follow your story until here.
    "What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit?"

    Why do"planning stages" predate Bush-Chency admin?
    Planning stages of what?
    Not sure what you are saying also with the Russia-Gate /Clinton-Gate thing.
    Nor with the "One side refuses to fold" and the sworn affadavit?

    Can you flesh this out for me? Thanks.
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  18. annamaria says:

    Killing freedom of speech in America, one google search at a time: http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/08/08/google-committed-suppression-free-speech/
    “According to reports, Google works hand in hand with the NSA and CIA to expand unconstitutional spying on everyone everywhere and to suppress independent and dissenting thought and expression. For example, on July 31, the World Socialist Web Site reported that “Between April and June, Google completed a major revision of its search engine that sharply curtails public access to Internet web sites that operate independently of the corporate and state-controlled media. Since the implementation of the changes, many left wing, anti-war and progressive web sites have experienced a sharp fall in traffic generated by Google searches.” https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2017/07/31/goog-j31.html

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-11-01/wikileaks-reveals-googles-strategic-plan-help-democrats-win-election: “Wikileaks Reveals Google’s “Strategic Plan” To Help Democrats Win The Election, Track Voters”

    Read More
    • Agree: chris
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  19. annamaria says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I for one was appalled to learn that the official who quite likely will oversee the investigation of the Awans is one Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
     
    Yup. And guess what? As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder ... 13 months on and still no leads!

    When the hell are Trump and Sessions going to get serious about going after these freaks?

    “As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!”

    Amazing. How come that the name “Wasserman” has become spread over the major ongoing DC scandals: The leak of the DNC emails (the pseudo-Russiangate), the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair), and finally, the death of Seth Rich, a DNC employee who went into contact with Wikileaks re the DNC machinations. Looks like American “democracy on the march,” Clinton style.

    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-steven-wasserman-accused-burying-seth-rich-case/

    “The Seth Rich Case: Nucleus of An American Coup Attempt:” http://www.phillip-butler.com/seth-rich-case/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair)
     
    and the Trump Justice Dept. seems to have zero interest in it

    I suspect this and other reasons- like the serial leaks from the highest levels of the intelligence agencies are why Trump is becoming openly exasperated with Sessions

    I suspect that Sessions knows that too much exposure of back-room dealings of the deepstate (with perhaps the Senate), would be potentially inconvenient.

    when Lindsey Graham! came to Jeff Sessions defense, I sort of knew then that Jeff Sessions is a deepstate asset

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/27/lindsey-graham-warns-donald-trump-firing-jeff-sess/
    , @EdwardM
    Where is Mr. Wasserman's boss, the U.S. Attorney for D.C.? Oh, right, it's an Obama holdover. Why hasn't President Trump put his own person in this critical job? (Apparently he has nominated someone but as usual the Senate is in no hurry to approve him. Nothing would stop DOJ from firing the current guy and placing the Trump nominee in an acting position, just as Obama did with the incumbent.)

    This story would be hilarious if it weren't so serious. The quintessential example of foreigners from corrupt societies learning quickly how to work our system. We have to give the Awans credit for milking liberal banks' and Democrats' foreigner- and Muslim-worship (combined with sheer stupidity) to refrain from asking any questions.
    , @chris
    Maybe it should be called Wassergate.
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  20. @Greg Bacon
    This whole affair sounds like it is more subversion by the ones who control Congress, the Israeli lobbying arm, AIPAC.

    Two reasons for that statement: One is that the MSM, largely owned by American Jews, have barely mentioned this affair and Two, Wasserman-Schultz is one of AIPAC's Big Guns, the one they use to subvert Congress to Israel's will.

    Occam’s sledgehammer – there is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.

    So we end up with the shorter Greg Bacon: Imran Awan* is a transgender eevuljo0o operative from Lahore (‘the whore’) working in the perverted Zionist cause of trans-xism under the direction of the transgender homo-jooo leader Debbie Wasserman (Debbie Was-a-Man) Shultz. In a global conspiracy to corrupt the seed of American . . . etc.

    .
    *Jooo feminine name Awan is Adam and Eve’s daughter, who was Abel’s sister and lover, and after killing him, Cain had children by her. Incest, murder, double-incest, flight to the east (Pakistan, former jooo land of Nod) to escape justice. It all fits; if you mangle the facts hard enough.

    Read More
    • LOL: iffen
    • Troll: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    There is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.
     
    It required no mangling at all. It fit right in.
    , @Greg Bacon
    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM, has Congress sit up and beg for treats and has gotten the WH under their control, you'll know where this story leads.

    Aided by these ridiculous stories coming out that McMasters is some kind of secret jihad lover and that Shariah law is about to be imposed on the USA, without knowing that the Judaic Noahide Laws already have been passed into law by a craven Congress, then you might see what is really going on.
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  21. @F. G. Sanford
    What if the Awan brothers are "cutouts" for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the "deep state" panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the "deep state" was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn't had time to consider "Plan B" in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener's sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous "deep state" Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it's called, "Debbie Does Dulles", and its stars include "Many Talented Celebrities"? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I'm guessing the odds are pretty long. I'm betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she'll file that affidavit if she has to.

    What if the “deep state” panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the “deep state” was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried?

    I think those two in particular are beyond the “what if” stage.

    Read More
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  22. densa says:

    Thanks for this article that adds some pieces of the puzzle, especially with al-Attar and the Clinton lawyer. Obviously this was not a low-level screw up. I really want to learn more about the hiring process.

    Read More
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  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @hooodathunkit

    Occam's sledgehammer - there is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.
     
    So we end up with the shorter Greg Bacon: Imran Awan* is a transgender eevuljo0o operative from Lahore ('the whore') working in the perverted Zionist cause of trans-xism under the direction of the transgender homo-jooo leader Debbie Wasserman (Debbie Was-a-Man) Shultz. In a global conspiracy to corrupt the seed of American . . . etc.

    .
    *Jooo feminine name Awan is Adam and Eve's daughter, who was Abel's sister and lover, and after killing him, Cain had children by her. Incest, murder, double-incest, flight to the east (Pakistan, former jooo land of Nod) to escape justice. It all fits; if you mangle the facts hard enough.

    There is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.

    It required no mangling at all. It fit right in.

    Read More
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  24. Greg Bacon says: • Website
    @hooodathunkit

    Occam's sledgehammer - there is nothing so simple or straightforward that it cannot be mangled to force-fit the eevuljoos narrative.
     
    So we end up with the shorter Greg Bacon: Imran Awan* is a transgender eevuljo0o operative from Lahore ('the whore') working in the perverted Zionist cause of trans-xism under the direction of the transgender homo-jooo leader Debbie Wasserman (Debbie Was-a-Man) Shultz. In a global conspiracy to corrupt the seed of American . . . etc.

    .
    *Jooo feminine name Awan is Adam and Eve's daughter, who was Abel's sister and lover, and after killing him, Cain had children by her. Incest, murder, double-incest, flight to the east (Pakistan, former jooo land of Nod) to escape justice. It all fits; if you mangle the facts hard enough.

    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM, has Congress sit up and beg for treats and has gotten the WH under their control, you’ll know where this story leads.

    Aided by these ridiculous stories coming out that McMasters is some kind of secret jihad lover and that Shariah law is about to be imposed on the USA, without knowing that the Judaic Noahide Laws already have been passed into law by a craven Congress, then you might see what is really going on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM
     
    yea sure. They even brag about it

    but for an impertinent goyim to suspect that they'd actually use all that ill-gotten power to effect policies that are somehow beneficial to the tribe, is nothing less than a blood libel and anti-Semitic canard/smear!

    sure, ((they)) control the Fed and the Treasury and congress and the media, but that has NOTHING! to do with congresses' sycophantic groveling to Bibi! Or our serial wars for Israel!!

    who they all abase themselves to because Bibi is the leader of the only democracy in the Middle East!!! And as such, is our most important ally in the fight against Global Terror!!!!

    Just because Israel attacked our NSA ship in international waters and tried to sink it with all hands, was only done because just like with the Holocaust, if they don't take action, the rest of the world will sit on their hands as the Jews are all pushed into the sea by the terrorists/Palestinians!!! Just like they did when the Jews were being pushed into the ovens!!

    So of course they had to attack the USS Liberty! Of course they had to do 9/11, because the American people were too apathetic and anti-Semitic to care about Israel's existential crisis! If it weren't for 9/11, the American people would have been perfectly fine allowing Saddam to toss babies out of incubators and threaten Israel! They had to do it to get the lazy, self-absorbed anti-Semitic Americas to fight!!

    can you blame them?!

    just look at how anti-Semitic Americans are still! To this day pointing out how Jews control the banks and courts and universities .. as if that had some negative significance! Of course they control those things, but to pretend as if that fact has any significance whatsoever, is to prove that the Jews are right, and that there lingers in every white American a dormant Nazi! And so of course they have to use that control to marginalize the dormant Nazis who will one day want to remove the Jews from those positions of power! Just like the Nuremburg laws! So you see, it's a circular prophesy. To point out that Jews control these things, is to prove that you're a Nazi, and which makes it imperative that Jews control these things...

    , @Wizard of Oz
    Sorry, without mention of the Deep State this is like a discussion of Gravity which purports to be complete but its only got Einstein on one side, a d no one to represent Quantum Physics. You leave readers in a black hole.
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  25. Rurik says:
    @annamaria
    "As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!"

    Amazing. How come that the name "Wasserman" has become spread over the major ongoing DC scandals: The leak of the DNC emails (the pseudo-Russiangate), the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair), and finally, the death of Seth Rich, a DNC employee who went into contact with Wikileaks re the DNC machinations. Looks like American "democracy on the march," Clinton style.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-steven-wasserman-accused-burying-seth-rich-case/
    "The Seth Rich Case: Nucleus of An American Coup Attempt:" http://www.phillip-butler.com/seth-rich-case/

    the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair)

    and the Trump Justice Dept. seems to have zero interest in it

    I suspect this and other reasons- like the serial leaks from the highest levels of the intelligence agencies are why Trump is becoming openly exasperated with Sessions

    I suspect that Sessions knows that too much exposure of back-room dealings of the deepstate (with perhaps the Senate), would be potentially inconvenient.

    when Lindsey Graham! came to Jeff Sessions defense, I sort of knew then that Jeff Sessions is a deepstate asset

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/jul/27/lindsey-graham-warns-donald-trump-firing-jeff-sess/

    Read More
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  26. @F. G. Sanford
    What if the Awan brothers are "cutouts" for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the "deep state" panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the "deep state" was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn't had time to consider "Plan B" in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener's sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous "deep state" Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it's called, "Debbie Does Dulles", and its stars include "Many Talented Celebrities"? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I'm guessing the odds are pretty long. I'm betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she'll file that affidavit if she has to.

    I’m sorry F.G., but what if all the various narratives, which are being supplied to the Seth Rich murder end up only being a way of hiding the truth within plain sight, so as to make it hard to distinguish between the real, and the phony, narratives which have been put in place, as to only confuse us truth seekers? This is how ‘conspiracy theories’ are made to become conspiracy theories.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    F.G. said "What if the Awan brothers are “cutouts” for another intelligence agency?" But of course. They're perfect patsies, just like in our most famous "conspiracy theory" dubbed case.

    Were the Awan brothers really gathering intelligence for Pakistan’s ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence)? And was the ISI on secret contract with the C.I.A.?

    http://cosmicconvergence.org/?p=20927

    AWANGATE: A CIA Black Operation That Used Pakistan’s ISI To Do The Dirty Work While MOSSAD’s Inside Woman Directs
     
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  27. There has been surprisingly little media follow-up on the story about the July 25th Dulles Airport arrest of House of Representatives’ employed Pakistani-American IT specialist Imran Awan

    Cuz it’s J-Media.

    Read More
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  28. Rurik says:
    @Greg Bacon
    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM, has Congress sit up and beg for treats and has gotten the WH under their control, you'll know where this story leads.

    Aided by these ridiculous stories coming out that McMasters is some kind of secret jihad lover and that Shariah law is about to be imposed on the USA, without knowing that the Judaic Noahide Laws already have been passed into law by a craven Congress, then you might see what is really going on.

    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM

    yea sure. They even brag about it

    but for an impertinent goyim to suspect that they’d actually use all that ill-gotten power to effect policies that are somehow beneficial to the tribe, is nothing less than a blood libel and anti-Semitic canard/smear!

    sure, ((they)) control the Fed and the Treasury and congress and the media, but that has NOTHING! to do with congresses’ sycophantic groveling to Bibi! Or our serial wars for Israel!!

    who they all abase themselves to because Bibi is the leader of the only democracy in the Middle East!!! And as such, is our most important ally in the fight against Global Terror!!!!

    Just because Israel attacked our NSA ship in international waters and tried to sink it with all hands, was only done because just like with the Holocaust, if they don’t take action, the rest of the world will sit on their hands as the Jews are all pushed into the sea by the terrorists/Palestinians!!! Just like they did when the Jews were being pushed into the ovens!!

    So of course they had to attack the USS Liberty! Of course they had to do 9/11, because the American people were too apathetic and anti-Semitic to care about Israel’s existential crisis! If it weren’t for 9/11, the American people would have been perfectly fine allowing Saddam to toss babies out of incubators and threaten Israel! They had to do it to get the lazy, self-absorbed anti-Semitic Americas to fight!!

    can you blame them?!

    just look at how anti-Semitic Americans are still! To this day pointing out how Jews control the banks and courts and universities .. as if that had some negative significance! Of course they control those things, but to pretend as if that fact has any significance whatsoever, is to prove that the Jews are right, and that there lingers in every white American a dormant Nazi! And so of course they have to use that control to marginalize the dormant Nazis who will one day want to remove the Jews from those positions of power! Just like the Nuremburg laws! So you see, it’s a circular prophesy. To point out that Jews control these things, is to prove that you’re a Nazi, and which makes it imperative that Jews control these things…

    Read More
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  29. Phil wrote:

    “Sometimes Congress pushes the process by demanding that its staff have access above and beyond the normal “need to know.” In March 2016, for example, eight Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee requested that their staffs be given access to top secret sensitive compartmented information.”

    The linked article on “Atheist Conservative” (under ‘requested’ ) appears to be based on Giraldi’s research. It’s opening paragraph:

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz, erstwhile chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, employed Imran Awan, a Hezbollah-connected Muslim from Pakistan, [sic] as her information technology aide.

    further down, it once again bold-faces a “Hezbollah connection.”

    wtf?

    –> Wasserman-Schultz knowingly employed Hezbollah??

    –> “Hezbollah” was tossed in to sex up the intrigue??

    –> Did Giraldi make the Hezbollah connection or was it inserted by the blogger at theAtheist Conservative?

    As for this reader: Pending better evidence, I’m skeptical of a Hezbollah connection: if MSM could use this scandal to further demonize Iran (via Hezbollah), they would have done so.

    btw, The Awan scandal came up on C Span the other day, when Jonathan Turley, a regular guest who comments on matters involving criminal law, discussed the Russia investigation. 17 min. into Turley’s stint, a caller from South Carolina posited questions about Browder/the Magnitsky Act, and about the Awan – Wasserman-Schultz situation https://www.c-span.org/video/?431977-5/washington-journal-jonathan-turley-discusses-russia-investigation .

    In a two-minute response, Turley summarized much of the information that Giraldi included in this article; he pointed ever-so-gently to a “bit of a bias” in media coverage:

    “There has been a little bias, particularly on exclusion of other stories;

    Turley recounted the salient facts of the case and pointed to its many entanglements; Turley stated unequivocally:

    “People on Capitol Hill . . . [if] You are going to start investigating influence on U. S. elections, [then] be fair and look at that with regard to the Pakistani issue, that involves Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and couple other House members. . . . The caller is absolutely right, that should be getting a lot more attention.”

    Turley concluded his response to the Caller from South Carolina:

    I agree with the caller: I don’t understand why this is not on the front page.

    Turley’s response took about 2 minutes, ending at 20.48 with the declaration that this was an important story that “should be on the front page.”

    How did (frequently over-caffeinated) moderator Greta Brawner respond?
    By 20.48 1/2 Brawner had queued up the next call.

    How did C Span’s team of crack journalists follow up to the statement, “This should be getting a lot more attention?”

    C Span’s trademark 3-hour Washington Journal program opens each morning with a question to the audience, drawn from the day’s important news or issues. For the first 30- to 60-minutes of the program, and the last 30 minutes, callers react to that question/issue.

    Since August 1, 2017, when Turley made his comments about the importance of the Wasserman-Schultz-Awan scandal, here are the questions C Span has considered important to raise to its audience:

    Aug 2 2017 Paul Orgel
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s use of Twitter.
    8:08AM Affordable Care Act Insurance Market Stabilization Efforts
    9:06AM Delphine Metcalf-Foster on Supporting Disabled Veterans
    9:29AM Open Phones, Part 2
    10:03AM FBI Headquarters Consolidation

    ————-
    Aug 3 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s announcement that he would back a Senate Republican bill aimed at reducing legal immigration by targeting the number of green cards that are issued each year. Dean DeChiaro, speaking by phone, talked about some of the details of the legislation. 

    8:04AM Pete Sepp and Adam Posen on Tax Reform
    9:03AM Lisa Collins on North Korea Nuclear Program

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:03AM Wildlfire Reduction

    11:59AM Atlantic Council Discussion on Cybersecurity
    ————
    Aug 4 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the decision by special counsel Robert Mueller to convene a grand jury in the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

    8:03AM Dinesh D’Souza on The Big Lie
    8:50AM Rashad Robinson on Affirmative Action
    9:32AM Open Phones, Part 2
    9:37AM Carrie Johnson on Leak Investigations
    ———-
    Aug 5 2017 Kimberly Atkins
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1
    Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on the U.S. economy.

    8:01AM Eugene O’Donnell on Presiden Trump’s Policing Comments
    8:33AM Jared Genser on Protections for U.S. Citizens Overseas***
    9:04AM Scott Jashick on Affirmative Action in College Admissions
    9:34AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:01AM Combating ISIS and Protecting Minority Groups in Iraq

    ————-
    Aug 6 2017 [Peter Slen]
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments from Republicans on the question: “How is President Trump doing?”
    8:04AM Samuel Charap on U.S.-Russia Relations
    8:35AM Jose Miguel Cruz on Transnational Gangs
    9:05AM David Beckworth on the Inflation Rate
    9:33AM Open Phones, Part 2

    ————

    Aug 7 2017 Paul Orgel
    6:59AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewers to offer their messages to Congress on tax reform. Telephone lines were split by income levels.
    8:02AM Stephen Moore and Heidi Shierholz on the U.S. Economy
    8:56AM Charles Johnson on the Cost of Combating ISIS
    9:30AM Open Phones, Part 2
    ———-

    Aug 8 2017 Pedro Echevarria
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the questions “Is legal immigration good or bad for the economy?”
    8:03AM John Fund on President Trump and the Republican Legislative Agenda

    8:32AM Vanita Gupta on Civil Rights in the Trump Era

    9:03AM Anand Parekh on the Opioid Crisis

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2

    It’s possible the Wasserman-Schultz – Awan scandal was raised subsequently by a caller to C Span, but as the above schedule of C Span Washington Journal programming displays, if the American people wanted to in-depth information about the Awans, they’d do better to tune in to RT, where Dr. Phil Giraldi explained the case and labeled it “the scandal of the century”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection? Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan. Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?
    , @Seamus Padraig

    Pending better evidence, I’m skeptical of a Hezbollah connection: if MSM could use this scandal to further demonize Iran (via Hezbollah), they would have done so.
     
    I'm skeptical, too. Awan is from Pakistan, and the overwhelming majority of Pakis are Sunni. But Hezbollah is famously a Shiite resistance movement, so why would there be a connection between them?

    Pending a better investigation, I'm going to assume this is hasbara.
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  30. Biff says:

    n no explanation why she was even allowed to leave since carrying more than $10,000 out of the country without reporting it is a felony.

    Not a felony, but a mere civil infraction.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Not reporting carrying more than $10k across the border can be either a criminal charge with fines up to $500k and jail time, or a civil violation which often results in all unreported assets being seized and forfeit and possibly with a civil penalty of up to the amount forfeit, or even both criminal and civil. The fact that she was allowed to go on her way with her cash shows an unusual deference to the lady.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  31. EdwardM says:
    @annamaria
    "As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!"

    Amazing. How come that the name "Wasserman" has become spread over the major ongoing DC scandals: The leak of the DNC emails (the pseudo-Russiangate), the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair), and finally, the death of Seth Rich, a DNC employee who went into contact with Wikileaks re the DNC machinations. Looks like American "democracy on the march," Clinton style.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-steven-wasserman-accused-burying-seth-rich-case/
    "The Seth Rich Case: Nucleus of An American Coup Attempt:" http://www.phillip-butler.com/seth-rich-case/

    Where is Mr. Wasserman’s boss, the U.S. Attorney for D.C.? Oh, right, it’s an Obama holdover. Why hasn’t President Trump put his own person in this critical job? (Apparently he has nominated someone but as usual the Senate is in no hurry to approve him. Nothing would stop DOJ from firing the current guy and placing the Trump nominee in an acting position, just as Obama did with the incumbent.)

    This story would be hilarious if it weren’t so serious. The quintessential example of foreigners from corrupt societies learning quickly how to work our system. We have to give the Awans credit for milking liberal banks’ and Democrats’ foreigner- and Muslim-worship (combined with sheer stupidity) to refrain from asking any questions.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    There is no Muslim-worship among the ziocons at DNC, who got caught in the Awan affair. The Muslim card is a desperate argument for the currently unstoppable process of investigation. Whether Mr. Wasserman or his boss or Clintons' lawyer defending Awan for the undisclosed amount of money, the train is moving and the word Treason is in the air.
    The most serious detail of the Awan affair is the violation of the protocol re classified information: The Awan family had no security clearance, there was no documentation of the confirmation of the previous employment and no records for their relevant education/training. Just to reiterate: the family (with a history of fraud and suspicious connections) has an open access to the classified documents of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
    Wasserman-Schultz has been directly involved in the greatest breach of the national cybersecurity. She tried to impede the investigation and she kept the fraudsters on the US-taxpayers-paid payroll up to the day of the arrest of the main culprit. She did that despite being warned by the police. She should be stripped already of her security clearance and arrested for the breach that was done on her watch and with her active help.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  32. MEexpert says:
    @Ace
    Foreign-born people should be barred for life from holding any kind of security clearance. I mean in the highly unlikely event I were to become a Chinese citizen (and be 40 years younger), would the Chinese be so stupid as to give me a clearance and allow me to work in a key government office?

    Obviously not but forget"obviously" when we're talking about the U.S.A.

    Foreign-born people should be barred for life from holding any kind of security clearance.

    Several years ago, I was denied employment in an aerospace company because I was considered a security risk for having relatives abroad. This was done in spite of the fact that I was already working for the same company in another division. In the end, I had the last laugh, because a week later a company employee, a native born white American, was arrested for passing out secret information.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ace
    It's all about minimizing risk. My respect for Sikhs would make me inclined to grant security clearances to them liberally. My overall position, however, is that we have let in far too many foreigners than sane persons would and are stupidly phlegmatic about leaving illegals here to "make a life for themselves" or "make a contribution" (at the expense of native born Americans).

    You were entitled to the last laugh indeed. We do not lack for native born white Americans. In fact, they are the source of our fundamental problems.
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  33. Debbie Wasserman Schultz wouldn’t even be a viable political candidate in America 2000-2017 if:

    1)The cockroach JFK had not allowed the Cubans into South Florida

    2)If the 1965 Immigration Reform Act had not passed

    3)If a National Origins Immigration Policy had been implemented that excluded all nonwhites…

    This Paki Muslim “American” computer server scandal and 9/11 would never have occured …and America would still be 90 percent Native Born White American….

    Read More
    • Agree: Ace
    • Replies: @Hibernian
    Don't think Cuban immigration to Miami helped leftists like Wasserman-Schultz. Sure some of the voted for her and others like her, especially later arrivals. Mostly they provided support for the Diaz-Balart brothers, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and Marco Rubio.
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  34. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    Phil wrote:

    "Sometimes Congress pushes the process by demanding that its staff have access above and beyond the normal “need to know.” In March 2016, for example, eight Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee requested that their staffs be given access to top secret sensitive compartmented information."
     
    The linked article on "Atheist Conservative" (under 'requested' ) appears to be based on Giraldi's research. It's opening paragraph:

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz, erstwhile chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, employed Imran Awan, a Hezbollah-connected Muslim from Pakistan, [sic] as her information technology aide.
     
    further down, it once again bold-faces a "Hezbollah connection."

    wtf?

    --> Wasserman-Schultz knowingly employed Hezbollah??

    --> "Hezbollah" was tossed in to sex up the intrigue??

    --> Did Giraldi make the Hezbollah connection or was it inserted by the blogger at theAtheist Conservative?

    As for this reader: Pending better evidence, I'm skeptical of a Hezbollah connection: if MSM could use this scandal to further demonize Iran (via Hezbollah), they would have done so.

    ---

    btw, The Awan scandal came up on C Span the other day, when Jonathan Turley, a regular guest who comments on matters involving criminal law, discussed the Russia investigation. 17 min. into Turley's stint, a caller from South Carolina posited questions about Browder/the Magnitsky Act, and about the Awan - Wasserman-Schultz situation https://www.c-span.org/video/?431977-5/washington-journal-jonathan-turley-discusses-russia-investigation .

    In a two-minute response, Turley summarized much of the information that Giraldi included in this article; he pointed ever-so-gently to a "bit of a bias" in media coverage:


    "There has been a little bias, particularly on exclusion of other stories;
     
    Turley recounted the salient facts of the case and pointed to its many entanglements; Turley stated unequivocally:

    "People on Capitol Hill . . . [if] You are going to start investigating influence on U. S. elections, [then] be fair and look at that with regard to the Pakistani issue, that involves Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and couple other House members. . . . The caller is absolutely right, that should be getting a lot more attention."
     
    Turley concluded his response to the Caller from South Carolina:

    I agree with the caller: I don’t understand why this is not on the front page.
     
    Turley's response took about 2 minutes, ending at 20.48 with the declaration that this was an important story that "should be on the front page."

    How did (frequently over-caffeinated) moderator Greta Brawner respond?
    By 20.48 1/2 Brawner had queued up the next call.

    How did C Span's team of crack journalists follow up to the statement, "This should be getting a lot more attention?"

    C Span's trademark 3-hour Washington Journal program opens each morning with a question to the audience, drawn from the day's important news or issues. For the first 30- to 60-minutes of the program, and the last 30 minutes, callers react to that question/issue.

    Since August 1, 2017, when Turley made his comments about the importance of the Wasserman-Schultz-Awan scandal, here are the questions C Span has considered important to raise to its audience:


    Aug 2 2017 Paul Orgel
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s use of Twitter.
    8:08AM Affordable Care Act Insurance Market Stabilization Efforts
    9:06AM Delphine Metcalf-Foster on Supporting Disabled Veterans
    9:29AM Open Phones, Part 2
    10:03AM FBI Headquarters Consolidation

    ————-
    Aug 3 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s announcement that he would back a Senate Republican bill aimed at reducing legal immigration by targeting the number of green cards that are issued each year. Dean DeChiaro, speaking by phone, talked about some of the details of the legislation. 

    8:04AM Pete Sepp and Adam Posen on Tax Reform
    9:03AM Lisa Collins on North Korea Nuclear Program

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:03AM Wildlfire Reduction

    11:59AM Atlantic Council Discussion on Cybersecurity
    ————
    Aug 4 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the decision by special counsel Robert Mueller to convene a grand jury in the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

    8:03AM Dinesh D'Souza on The Big Lie
    8:50AM Rashad Robinson on Affirmative Action
    9:32AM Open Phones, Part 2
    9:37AM Carrie Johnson on Leak Investigations
    ———-
    Aug 5 2017 Kimberly Atkins
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1
    Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on the U.S. economy.

    8:01AM Eugene O'Donnell on Presiden Trump's Policing Comments
    8:33AM Jared Genser on Protections for U.S. Citizens Overseas***

    9:04AM Scott Jashick on Affirmative Action in College Admissions
    9:34AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:01AM Combating ISIS and Protecting Minority Groups in Iraq

    ————-
    Aug 6 2017 [Peter Slen]
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments from Republicans on the question: “How is President Trump doing?”
    8:04AM Samuel Charap on U.S.-Russia Relations
    8:35AM Jose Miguel Cruz on Transnational Gangs
    9:05AM David Beckworth on the Inflation Rate
    9:33AM Open Phones, Part 2

    ————

    Aug 7 2017 Paul Orgel
    6:59AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewers to offer their messages to Congress on tax reform. Telephone lines were split by income levels.
    8:02AM Stephen Moore and Heidi Shierholz on the U.S. Economy
    8:56AM Charles Johnson on the Cost of Combating ISIS
    9:30AM Open Phones, Part 2
    ———-

    Aug 8 2017 Pedro Echevarria
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the questions “Is legal immigration good or bad for the economy?”
    8:03AM John Fund on President Trump and the Republican Legislative Agenda

    8:32AM Vanita Gupta on Civil Rights in the Trump Era

    9:03AM Anand Parekh on the Opioid Crisis

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2
     

    It's possible the Wasserman-Schultz - Awan scandal was raised subsequently by a caller to C Span, but as the above schedule of C Span Washington Journal programming displays, if the American people wanted to in-depth information about the Awans, they'd do better to tune in to RT, where Dr. Phil Giraldi explained the case and labeled it "the scandal of the century"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olPhsVwMmuU

    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection? Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan. Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection?
     
    Read what was written: LACK of evidence -- in the face of the logic of antipathies -- prompts the skepticism.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?
     
    Israel shares borders with Lebanon, which is home to Hezbollah; it was at Israel's instigation that Hezbollah came into being.
    Does that constitute "evidence" that Israel supports Hezbollah and is also/likewise complicit in Wassergate (h/t Chris @ #35)?
    Or do you prefer that Israel's involvement be airbrushed away?
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Please revisit your reference to Pakistan (Sunni) and Iran (Shia) being next to each other (as are Ukraine and Russia and North and South Korea etc) and try and make that comment meet your usual standards.
    , @MEexpert

    Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan.
     
    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn't mean he is a Hezbollah operative.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah.
     
    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.
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  35. chris says:
    @annamaria
    "As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!"

    Amazing. How come that the name "Wasserman" has become spread over the major ongoing DC scandals: The leak of the DNC emails (the pseudo-Russiangate), the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity (Awan affair), and finally, the death of Seth Rich, a DNC employee who went into contact with Wikileaks re the DNC machinations. Looks like American "democracy on the march," Clinton style.
    http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2017/05/debbie-wasserman-schultzs-brother-steven-wasserman-accused-burying-seth-rich-case/
    "The Seth Rich Case: Nucleus of An American Coup Attempt:" http://www.phillip-butler.com/seth-rich-case/

    Maybe it should be called Wassergate.

    Read More
    • LOL: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Wassergate. Great suggestion.
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  36. Norcal says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    What if the Awan brothers are "cutouts" for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the "deep state" panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the "deep state" was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn't had time to consider "Plan B" in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener's sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous "deep state" Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it's called, "Debbie Does Dulles", and its stars include "Many Talented Celebrities"? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I'm guessing the odds are pretty long. I'm betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she'll file that affidavit if she has to.

    F. G. Sanford so good to find you here!

    Read More
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  37. annamaria says:
    @EdwardM
    Where is Mr. Wasserman's boss, the U.S. Attorney for D.C.? Oh, right, it's an Obama holdover. Why hasn't President Trump put his own person in this critical job? (Apparently he has nominated someone but as usual the Senate is in no hurry to approve him. Nothing would stop DOJ from firing the current guy and placing the Trump nominee in an acting position, just as Obama did with the incumbent.)

    This story would be hilarious if it weren't so serious. The quintessential example of foreigners from corrupt societies learning quickly how to work our system. We have to give the Awans credit for milking liberal banks' and Democrats' foreigner- and Muslim-worship (combined with sheer stupidity) to refrain from asking any questions.

    There is no Muslim-worship among the ziocons at DNC, who got caught in the Awan affair. The Muslim card is a desperate argument for the currently unstoppable process of investigation. Whether Mr. Wasserman or his boss or Clintons’ lawyer defending Awan for the undisclosed amount of money, the train is moving and the word Treason is in the air.
    The most serious detail of the Awan affair is the violation of the protocol re classified information: The Awan family had no security clearance, there was no documentation of the confirmation of the previous employment and no records for their relevant education/training. Just to reiterate: the family (with a history of fraud and suspicious connections) has an open access to the classified documents of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
    Wasserman-Schultz has been directly involved in the greatest breach of the national cybersecurity. She tried to impede the investigation and she kept the fraudsters on the US-taxpayers-paid payroll up to the day of the arrest of the main culprit. She did that despite being warned by the police. She should be stripped already of her security clearance and arrested for the breach that was done on her watch and with her active help.

    Read More
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  38. annamaria says:
    @chris
    Maybe it should be called Wassergate.

    Wassergate. Great suggestion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Wassergate. Great suggestion.
     
    I prefer Zion-gate.
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  39. Ace says:
    @MEexpert

    Foreign-born people should be barred for life from holding any kind of security clearance.
     
    Several years ago, I was denied employment in an aerospace company because I was considered a security risk for having relatives abroad. This was done in spite of the fact that I was already working for the same company in another division. In the end, I had the last laugh, because a week later a company employee, a native born white American, was arrested for passing out secret information.

    It’s all about minimizing risk. My respect for Sikhs would make me inclined to grant security clearances to them liberally. My overall position, however, is that we have let in far too many foreigners than sane persons would and are stupidly phlegmatic about leaving illegals here to “make a life for themselves” or “make a contribution” (at the expense of native born Americans).

    You were entitled to the last laugh indeed. We do not lack for native born white Americans. In fact, they are the source of our fundamental problems.

    Read More
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  40. annamaria says:

    The Kagans’ clan triumph in Ukraine: http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/08/neo-nazi-commander-running-for.html
    “The creator and ex-commander of the Neo- Nazi “Azov” battalion Andrei Biletsky has announced his running for president of Ukraine.”
    This Biletsky: http://www.fort-russ.com/2017/04/ukrainian-nazi-leader-threatens-new.html
    This deserves a special new addition for the Holocaust Museums.

    Read More
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  41. Ace says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I for one was appalled to learn that the official who quite likely will oversee the investigation of the Awans is one Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
     
    Yup. And guess what? As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder ... 13 months on and still no leads!

    When the hell are Trump and Sessions going to get serious about going after these freaks?

    An Assistant DA is ultimately responsible for what the DA tells him to be responsible for.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    His boss, no doubt, is also an Obama flunkee.
    , @Alden
    Why would an ADA who prosecutes bank fraud investigate a murder? In a big city like DC the DA's office has several departments. Does anyone know if the DA's investigators are even investigating?

    Generally, the DA's office doesn't get involved until the police have a suspect and presentable evidence.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  42. @SolontoCroesus
    Phil wrote:

    "Sometimes Congress pushes the process by demanding that its staff have access above and beyond the normal “need to know.” In March 2016, for example, eight Democrats on the House Intelligence Committee requested that their staffs be given access to top secret sensitive compartmented information."
     
    The linked article on "Atheist Conservative" (under 'requested' ) appears to be based on Giraldi's research. It's opening paragraph:

    Debbie Wasserman Schultz, erstwhile chairperson of the Democratic National Committee, employed Imran Awan, a Hezbollah-connected Muslim from Pakistan, [sic] as her information technology aide.
     
    further down, it once again bold-faces a "Hezbollah connection."

    wtf?

    --> Wasserman-Schultz knowingly employed Hezbollah??

    --> "Hezbollah" was tossed in to sex up the intrigue??

    --> Did Giraldi make the Hezbollah connection or was it inserted by the blogger at theAtheist Conservative?

    As for this reader: Pending better evidence, I'm skeptical of a Hezbollah connection: if MSM could use this scandal to further demonize Iran (via Hezbollah), they would have done so.

    ---

    btw, The Awan scandal came up on C Span the other day, when Jonathan Turley, a regular guest who comments on matters involving criminal law, discussed the Russia investigation. 17 min. into Turley's stint, a caller from South Carolina posited questions about Browder/the Magnitsky Act, and about the Awan - Wasserman-Schultz situation https://www.c-span.org/video/?431977-5/washington-journal-jonathan-turley-discusses-russia-investigation .

    In a two-minute response, Turley summarized much of the information that Giraldi included in this article; he pointed ever-so-gently to a "bit of a bias" in media coverage:


    "There has been a little bias, particularly on exclusion of other stories;
     
    Turley recounted the salient facts of the case and pointed to its many entanglements; Turley stated unequivocally:

    "People on Capitol Hill . . . [if] You are going to start investigating influence on U. S. elections, [then] be fair and look at that with regard to the Pakistani issue, that involves Debbie Wasserman-Schultz and couple other House members. . . . The caller is absolutely right, that should be getting a lot more attention."
     
    Turley concluded his response to the Caller from South Carolina:

    I agree with the caller: I don’t understand why this is not on the front page.
     
    Turley's response took about 2 minutes, ending at 20.48 with the declaration that this was an important story that "should be on the front page."

    How did (frequently over-caffeinated) moderator Greta Brawner respond?
    By 20.48 1/2 Brawner had queued up the next call.

    How did C Span's team of crack journalists follow up to the statement, "This should be getting a lot more attention?"

    C Span's trademark 3-hour Washington Journal program opens each morning with a question to the audience, drawn from the day's important news or issues. For the first 30- to 60-minutes of the program, and the last 30 minutes, callers react to that question/issue.

    Since August 1, 2017, when Turley made his comments about the importance of the Wasserman-Schultz-Awan scandal, here are the questions C Span has considered important to raise to its audience:


    Aug 2 2017 Paul Orgel
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s use of Twitter.
    8:08AM Affordable Care Act Insurance Market Stabilization Efforts
    9:06AM Delphine Metcalf-Foster on Supporting Disabled Veterans
    9:29AM Open Phones, Part 2
    10:03AM FBI Headquarters Consolidation

    ————-
    Aug 3 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on President Trump’s announcement that he would back a Senate Republican bill aimed at reducing legal immigration by targeting the number of green cards that are issued each year. Dean DeChiaro, speaking by phone, talked about some of the details of the legislation. 

    8:04AM Pete Sepp and Adam Posen on Tax Reform
    9:03AM Lisa Collins on North Korea Nuclear Program

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:03AM Wildlfire Reduction

    11:59AM Atlantic Council Discussion on Cybersecurity
    ————
    Aug 4 2017 John McArdle
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the decision by special counsel Robert Mueller to convene a grand jury in the investigation into Russian interference in the 2016 presidential election.

    8:03AM Dinesh D'Souza on The Big Lie
    8:50AM Rashad Robinson on Affirmative Action
    9:32AM Open Phones, Part 2
    9:37AM Carrie Johnson on Leak Investigations
    ———-
    Aug 5 2017 Kimberly Atkins
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1
    Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments on the U.S. economy.

    8:01AM Eugene O'Donnell on Presiden Trump's Policing Comments
    8:33AM Jared Genser on Protections for U.S. Citizens Overseas***

    9:04AM Scott Jashick on Affirmative Action in College Admissions
    9:34AM Open Phones, Part 2

    10:01AM Combating ISIS and Protecting Minority Groups in Iraq

    ————-
    Aug 6 2017 [Peter Slen]
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer calls and social media comments from Republicans on the question: “How is President Trump doing?”
    8:04AM Samuel Charap on U.S.-Russia Relations
    8:35AM Jose Miguel Cruz on Transnational Gangs
    9:05AM David Beckworth on the Inflation Rate
    9:33AM Open Phones, Part 2

    ————

    Aug 7 2017 Paul Orgel
    6:59AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewers to offer their messages to Congress on tax reform. Telephone lines were split by income levels.
    8:02AM Stephen Moore and Heidi Shierholz on the U.S. Economy
    8:56AM Charles Johnson on the Cost of Combating ISIS
    9:30AM Open Phones, Part 2
    ———-

    Aug 8 2017 Pedro Echevarria
    7:00AM Open Phones, Part 1 Telephone lines were open for viewer comments on the questions “Is legal immigration good or bad for the economy?”
    8:03AM John Fund on President Trump and the Republican Legislative Agenda

    8:32AM Vanita Gupta on Civil Rights in the Trump Era

    9:03AM Anand Parekh on the Opioid Crisis

    9:35AM Open Phones, Part 2
     

    It's possible the Wasserman-Schultz - Awan scandal was raised subsequently by a caller to C Span, but as the above schedule of C Span Washington Journal programming displays, if the American people wanted to in-depth information about the Awans, they'd do better to tune in to RT, where Dr. Phil Giraldi explained the case and labeled it "the scandal of the century"

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olPhsVwMmuU

    Pending better evidence, I’m skeptical of a Hezbollah connection: if MSM could use this scandal to further demonize Iran (via Hezbollah), they would have done so.

    I’m skeptical, too. Awan is from Pakistan, and the overwhelming majority of Pakis are Sunni. But Hezbollah is famously a Shiite resistance movement, so why would there be a connection between them?

    Pending a better investigation, I’m going to assume this is hasbara.

    Read More
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  43. @Ace
    An Assistant DA is ultimately responsible for what the DA tells him to be responsible for.

    His boss, no doubt, is also an Obama flunkee.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ace
    That's entirely possible given Trump's bewildering indifference to personnel matters.

    He appears to have been hamstrung at the outset, eschewing both philosophical leadership and staffing up with loyalists. His director of personnel is a bad joke but Trump simply doesn't see it or care. He made a point of saying how he hires good people and lets them run but competent isn't the same thing as loyal or otherwise appropriate.
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  44. @Biff

    n no explanation why she was even allowed to leave since carrying more than $10,000 out of the country without reporting it is a felony.
     
    Not a felony, but a mere civil infraction.

    Not reporting carrying more than $10k across the border can be either a criminal charge with fines up to $500k and jail time, or a civil violation which often results in all unreported assets being seized and forfeit and possibly with a civil penalty of up to the amount forfeit, or even both criminal and civil. The fact that she was allowed to go on her way with her cash shows an unusual deference to the lady.

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  45. Ace says:
    @Seamus Padraig
    His boss, no doubt, is also an Obama flunkee.

    That’s entirely possible given Trump’s bewildering indifference to personnel matters.

    He appears to have been hamstrung at the outset, eschewing both philosophical leadership and staffing up with loyalists. His director of personnel is a bad joke but Trump simply doesn’t see it or care. He made a point of saying how he hires good people and lets them run but competent isn’t the same thing as loyal or otherwise appropriate.

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  46. Sowhat says:
    @Cloak And Dagger
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that the law is only meant for we ordinary citizens and not for the elite. Those of us who are silently hoping for the indictment of Debbie and Hillary are sure to be sorely disappointed.

    There is no justice anymore in these United States whose domestic and foreign policies are controlled by the deep state. Some days can be so bleak...

    I agreed but it sure would be nice if Sessions would get her…and her brother.

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    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    I just saw this posted. Don't know if it is completely true but it fits with other information. Devastating.

    http://truepundit.com/exclusive-fbi-debbie-wasserman-schultz-pressured-congressional-bank-to-give-illicit-loan-to-imran-awan-and-wife/

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  47. Sowhat says:
    @anonymous
    This is a staggering story. What a load of incompetence and coverup. This government is a total sieve. Of course those people were spying. Even if they didn't want to spy, for whatever reason, the Pakistani government could surely find ways to 'convince' them to do so. Most of these politicians appear to be so clueless that it's difficult to comprehend. It's just a carnival of taxpayer ripoff in DC.

    It could possibly be a case of intensional incompetence. There are a huge number of people IN Congress that are totally committed to destruction from within. The Trojan Horse has been within the gates for a surprising number of years. Trevor Loudon has an interesting video on Amazon titled The Enemies (inclde the “s”) Within. If accurate, it IS intensional incompetence. It may be on Youtube as well.

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  48. La (w)hore Pakistan is most likely in bed with her pimp du jour, China and using the Pakis working for the US Congress to secure data to be passed on to their handlers at ISI who in turn, pass it on to Beijing. And let’s not forget the Saudis…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    I think you are absolutely right that the Pakis passed on information to China and any other country willing to pay for it.
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  49. @Sowhat
    I agreed but it sure would be nice if Sessions would get her...and her brother.

    I just saw this posted. Don’t know if it is completely true but it fits with other information. Devastating.

    http://truepundit.com/exclusive-fbi-debbie-wasserman-schultz-pressured-congressional-bank-to-give-illicit-loan-to-imran-awan-and-wife/

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  50. RobinG says:
    @Joe Tedesky
    I'm sorry F.G., but what if all the various narratives, which are being supplied to the Seth Rich murder end up only being a way of hiding the truth within plain sight, so as to make it hard to distinguish between the real, and the phony, narratives which have been put in place, as to only confuse us truth seekers? This is how 'conspiracy theories' are made to become conspiracy theories.

    F.G. said “What if the Awan brothers are “cutouts” for another intelligence agency?” But of course. They’re perfect patsies, just like in our most famous “conspiracy theory” dubbed case.

    Were the Awan brothers really gathering intelligence for Pakistan’s ISI (Inter-Services Intelligence)? And was the ISI on secret contract with the C.I.A.?

    http://cosmicconvergence.org/?p=20927

    AWANGATE: A CIA Black Operation That Used Pakistan’s ISI To Do The Dirty Work While MOSSAD’s Inside Woman Directs

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  51. Eagle Eye says:
    @Seamus Padraig

    I for one was appalled to learn that the official who quite likely will oversee the investigation of the Awans is one Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz.
     
    Yup. And guess what? As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder ... 13 months on and still no leads!

    When the hell are Trump and Sessions going to get serious about going after these freaks?

    As Assistant DA for DC, Wasserman is also ultimately responsible for investigating the Seth Rich murder … 13 months on and still no leads!

    In a recent broadcast, Michael Savage suddenly savaged what he called “fake news from the right” such as the Seth Rich murder, Pizzagate (which he misrepresented as relating to hookers), etc. The presentation seemed curiously disengaged.

    My guess is that Savage and his family were physically threatened.

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    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
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  52. @Sam Shama
    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection? Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan. Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?

    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection?

    Read what was written: LACK of evidence — in the face of the logic of antipathies — prompts the skepticism.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?

    Israel shares borders with Lebanon, which is home to Hezbollah; it was at Israel’s instigation that Hezbollah came into being.
    Does that constitute “evidence” that Israel supports Hezbollah and is also/likewise complicit in Wassergate (h/t Chris @ #35)?
    Or do you prefer that Israel’s involvement be airbrushed away?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    The relevant passage is:

    Ali A. Al-Attar fled the United States after the indictment to avoid arrest and imprisonment and is now considered a fugitive from justice. Late in 2012 he was observed in Beirut Lebanon conversing with a Hezbollah official. Al-Attar is of interest in this case because he appears to have been a friend of Imran Awan and also loaned him $100,000, which was never repaid. The FBI is currently looking into any possible international espionage specifically involving the two men as Awan and his associates clearly had access to classified information while working in the House of Representatives that would have been of interest to any number of foreign governments.
     
    You think that line of inquiry should not be pursued? To me, that would amount to negligence of serious proportions.

    Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Pakistani Hezb-ul-mujahideen and Tehreek e-Islam all co-operate with a fluidity, ignoring any Shia-Sunni divide [although not particularly important in this context, Imran Awan might even be Shia, as many Pakistanis are]. A security breach of Congressional computers will consider all those angles.

    Iran, funds all of them, in greater or lesser degrees.

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  53. geokat62 says:
    @annamaria
    Wassergate. Great suggestion.

    Wassergate. Great suggestion.

    I prefer Zion-gate.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    I prefer Zion-gate.

    Every. Damn. Time.
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  54. Alden says:
    @Pachyderm Pachyderma
    La (w)hore Pakistan is most likely in bed with her pimp du jour, China and using the Pakis working for the US Congress to secure data to be passed on to their handlers at ISI who in turn, pass it on to Beijing. And let's not forget the Saudis...

    I think you are absolutely right that the Pakis passed on information to China and any other country willing to pay for it.

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  55. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection?
     
    Read what was written: LACK of evidence -- in the face of the logic of antipathies -- prompts the skepticism.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?
     
    Israel shares borders with Lebanon, which is home to Hezbollah; it was at Israel's instigation that Hezbollah came into being.
    Does that constitute "evidence" that Israel supports Hezbollah and is also/likewise complicit in Wassergate (h/t Chris @ #35)?
    Or do you prefer that Israel's involvement be airbrushed away?

    The relevant passage is:

    Ali A. Al-Attar fled the United States after the indictment to avoid arrest and imprisonment and is now considered a fugitive from justice. Late in 2012 he was observed in Beirut Lebanon conversing with a Hezbollah official. Al-Attar is of interest in this case because he appears to have been a friend of Imran Awan and also loaned him $100,000, which was never repaid. The FBI is currently looking into any possible international espionage specifically involving the two men as Awan and his associates clearly had access to classified information while working in the House of Representatives that would have been of interest to any number of foreign governments.

    You think that line of inquiry should not be pursued? To me, that would amount to negligence of serious proportions.

    Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Pakistani Hezb-ul-mujahideen and Tehreek e-Islam all co-operate with a fluidity, ignoring any Shia-Sunni divide [although not particularly important in this context, Imran Awan might even be Shia, as many Pakistanis are]. A security breach of Congressional computers will consider all those angles.

    Iran, funds all of them, in greater or lesser degrees.

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  56. @Greg Bacon
    If you know who controls the FED, the US Treasury, Hollywood, the MSM, has Congress sit up and beg for treats and has gotten the WH under their control, you'll know where this story leads.

    Aided by these ridiculous stories coming out that McMasters is some kind of secret jihad lover and that Shariah law is about to be imposed on the USA, without knowing that the Judaic Noahide Laws already have been passed into law by a craven Congress, then you might see what is really going on.

    Sorry, without mention of the Deep State this is like a discussion of Gravity which purports to be complete but its only got Einstein on one side, a d no one to represent Quantum Physics. You leave readers in a black hole.

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  57. Hibernian says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    What if the Awan brothers are "cutouts" for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the "deep state" panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the "deep state" was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn't had time to consider "Plan B" in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener's sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous "deep state" Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it's called, "Debbie Does Dulles", and its stars include "Many Talented Celebrities"? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I'm guessing the odds are pretty long. I'm betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she'll file that affidavit if she has to.

    Your channeling of Judge Nap gets kind of old after about 5 sentences.

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  58. Hibernian says:
    @War for Blair Mountain
    Debbie Wasserman Schultz wouldn't even be a viable political candidate in America 2000-2017 if:


    1)The cockroach JFK had not allowed the Cubans into South Florida


    2)If the 1965 Immigration Reform Act had not passed


    3)If a National Origins Immigration Policy had been implemented that excluded all nonwhites...


    This Paki Muslim "American" computer server scandal and 9/11 would never have occured ...and America would still be 90 percent Native Born White American....

    Don’t think Cuban immigration to Miami helped leftists like Wasserman-Schultz. Sure some of the voted for her and others like her, especially later arrivals. Mostly they provided support for the Diaz-Balart brothers, Ileana Ros-Lehtinen, and Marco Rubio.

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  59. @Sam Shama
    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection? Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan. Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?

    Please revisit your reference to Pakistan (Sunni) and Iran (Shia) being next to each other (as are Ukraine and Russia and North and South Korea etc) and try and make that comment meet your usual standards.

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  60. notanon says:

    It was also believed that they had somehow obtained entry to much of the House of Representatives’ computer network as well as to other information in the individual offices’ separate computer systems that they were in theory not allowed to access.

    If they were spying on Sanders’ campaign for DWS then Seth Rich’s leaks could ultimately lead to them giving them a motive.

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  61. Talha says:

    Ha ha!!! Pakistan zindabad! All your base are belong us!!!

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  62. Alden says:
    @Ace
    An Assistant DA is ultimately responsible for what the DA tells him to be responsible for.

    Why would an ADA who prosecutes bank fraud investigate a murder? In a big city like DC the DA’s office has several departments. Does anyone know if the DA’s investigators are even investigating?

    Generally, the DA’s office doesn’t get involved until the police have a suspect and presentable evidence.

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    • Replies: @Ace
    I hate to say much about D.C. as it has some weird features being the seat of government. In general, I think you're right. I expect prosecutors to rely on specialists in their offices to handle murder cases. Nor are they are lightly to be taken on by defense counsel. Crimes involving banks are of great interest to DOJ and the FBI. I don't know what bank-related offenses might be handled by state prosecutors.

    I don't know if there's an active investigation of Rich's murder. The former detective hired by his family seemed to be getting the run around from the police at one point. I get the impression that no one is hugely interested in the murder from what some commenters have said. It seems highly unlikely he was killed in the course of a robbery "that went bad" as the libs like to say.
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  63. Ace says:
    @Alden
    Why would an ADA who prosecutes bank fraud investigate a murder? In a big city like DC the DA's office has several departments. Does anyone know if the DA's investigators are even investigating?

    Generally, the DA's office doesn't get involved until the police have a suspect and presentable evidence.

    I hate to say much about D.C. as it has some weird features being the seat of government. In general, I think you’re right. I expect prosecutors to rely on specialists in their offices to handle murder cases. Nor are they are lightly to be taken on by defense counsel. Crimes involving banks are of great interest to DOJ and the FBI. I don’t know what bank-related offenses might be handled by state prosecutors.

    I don’t know if there’s an active investigation of Rich’s murder. The former detective hired by his family seemed to be getting the run around from the police at one point. I get the impression that no one is hugely interested in the murder from what some commenters have said. It seems highly unlikely he was killed in the course of a robbery “that went bad” as the libs like to say.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Highly unlikely. Libs. Right. This is for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovBsfVxmqw
    With SETH RICH INVESTIGATOR & Citizen Journalist @RealMattCouch LIVE in Washington DC
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  64. RobinG says:
    @Ace
    I hate to say much about D.C. as it has some weird features being the seat of government. In general, I think you're right. I expect prosecutors to rely on specialists in their offices to handle murder cases. Nor are they are lightly to be taken on by defense counsel. Crimes involving banks are of great interest to DOJ and the FBI. I don't know what bank-related offenses might be handled by state prosecutors.

    I don't know if there's an active investigation of Rich's murder. The former detective hired by his family seemed to be getting the run around from the police at one point. I get the impression that no one is hugely interested in the murder from what some commenters have said. It seems highly unlikely he was killed in the course of a robbery "that went bad" as the libs like to say.

    Highly unlikely. Libs. Right. This is for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovBsfVxmqw

    With SETH RICH INVESTIGATOR & Citizen Journalist @RealMattCouch LIVE in Washington DC

    Read More
    • Replies: @Man on the street
    The issue about Seth Rich, and the complete silenced media about it makes people who rightly distrusted the libturds create stories. The narratives of Silverstein purchase of WTC on the cheap, and the Asbestos issues of these towers, and the melting point of steel have never been discussed by the media, thus the people are free to create theories.

    Cover ups are done for reasons. Idiots who think that our population is 100% stupid, are mistaken, there are at least 10% of America who have some brain, and interest in knowing the truth.
    , @Skeptikal
    Jeez, after a minute I can see why this is "citizen journalism" and no way "professional level journalism." Get it together, guys. I am waiting for some news.
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  65. MEexpert says:
    @Sam Shama
    What evidence prompts your scepticism about the Hezbollah connection? Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan. Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah. You want all that to be airbrushed away?

    Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan.

    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn’t mean he is a Hezbollah operative.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah.

    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn’t mean he is a Hezbollah operative.
     
    The two questions are basically irrelevant on an internet forum, so desist from pablum of the type. FinCEN inquiries are of vital relevance here, particularly those concerning Lebanese Canadian Bank, Al-Attar's (an Iranian born Iraqi citizen) contacts with Haitham Rmeiti.

    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.
     
    Israel's geographical position amidst hostile neighbours, all of whom are Muslim, is a bit different than the one I mentioned, without going into too much depth.[ Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin. Let's not make this discussion devolve into this trope of "Israel helps ISIS!"]

    This is most likely an ISI infiltration of U.S Congressional data with Hezbollah (Iran) as imprimaturs.

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  66. dcite says:

    It seems highly unlikely he was killed in the course of a robbery “that went bad” as the libs like to say.

    Robbery is ok to liberals, depending on the demographics of the perp and victim. However, even they find it harder to be so positive about murder, so that’s a “robbery gone bad.”
    Even intelligent people like the detective use that absurd term without thinking.

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    • Replies: @Alden
    This is only circumstantial evidence. But the fact that the shooting took place at 4:19 AM is circumstantial evidence that it wasn't an ordinary street crime.
    By 4 AM the victims and criminals are home in bed. There's a big surge of street crime between 2 and 3 AM when the bars and clubs close and customers and employees go home. But after 3 almost nothing.

    And nothing normal like phone and wallet was stolen. It would take less than a minute to start searching for wallet etc. Although there is no way of knowing what Rich was carrying and if anything was taken.

    A nurse claims Rich was expected to recover and the death in the hospital was suspicious.

    Whoever had him killed is very arrogant and sure of themselves. They expected to just shoot him and get away with it. And they succeeded.
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  67. She radiates insanity, and one can barely imagine the storms and pandemonia passing through her deranged mind.
    And the great tragedy is lunatics such as her are pulling the strings in this country.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” Scoiety member since 1973, airborne qualified US army Vet, and pro Jazz artist.

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  68. Sam Shama says:
    @MEexpert

    Al-Attar is a known Hezbollah operative with a connection to Awan.
     
    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn't mean he is a Hezbollah operative.

    Pakistan is next door to Iran which finances Hezbollah.
     
    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.

    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn’t mean he is a Hezbollah operative.

    The two questions are basically irrelevant on an internet forum, so desist from pablum of the type. FinCEN inquiries are of vital relevance here, particularly those concerning Lebanese Canadian Bank, Al-Attar’s (an Iranian born Iraqi citizen) contacts with Haitham Rmeiti.

    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.

    Israel’s geographical position amidst hostile neighbours, all of whom are Muslim, is a bit different than the one I mentioned, without going into too much depth.[ Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin. Let's not make this discussion devolve into this trope of "Israel helps ISIS!"]

    This is most likely an ISI infiltration of U.S Congressional data with Hezbollah (Iran) as imprimaturs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin.
     
    You must be joking. Help, like the one the Israeli soldier gave to the injured palestinian by shooting him point blank or when Israeli soldiers prevent palestinians from going to hospitals and let them die on the road. Abbas is on Israeli payroll. Israel needs to keep him alive to be used in the future.

    Let's not make this discussion devolve into this trope of "Israel helps ISIS!"]
     
    Why not? It is a fact. Israel has been helping injured ISIS terrorists and sending them back to the battle front. Truth hurts.
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  69. MEexpert says:
    @Sam Shama

    And you know this, how? Do you have personal knowledge of it? Just because someone was seen talking to a Hezbollah member in Beirut doesn’t mean he is a Hezbollah operative.
     
    The two questions are basically irrelevant on an internet forum, so desist from pablum of the type. FinCEN inquiries are of vital relevance here, particularly those concerning Lebanese Canadian Bank, Al-Attar's (an Iranian born Iraqi citizen) contacts with Haitham Rmeiti.

    Just like Israel is next door to Syria, Iraq, and Lebanon and gives all kinds of assistance to ISIS.
     
    Israel's geographical position amidst hostile neighbours, all of whom are Muslim, is a bit different than the one I mentioned, without going into too much depth.[ Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin. Let's not make this discussion devolve into this trope of "Israel helps ISIS!"]

    This is most likely an ISI infiltration of U.S Congressional data with Hezbollah (Iran) as imprimaturs.

    Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin.

    You must be joking. Help, like the one the Israeli soldier gave to the injured palestinian by shooting him point blank or when Israeli soldiers prevent palestinians from going to hospitals and let them die on the road. Abbas is on Israeli payroll. Israel needs to keep him alive to be used in the future.

    Let’s not make this discussion devolve into this trope of “Israel helps ISIS!”]

    Why not? It is a fact. Israel has been helping injured ISIS terrorists and sending them back to the battle front. Truth hurts.

    Read More
    • Agree: chris
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court. This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA's and Hamas' payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood. The Trump administration has asked the PA to discontinue this policy.

    I was speaking about Israeli doctors, especially those operating from her northern border, not vengeful halfwits.

    No further discussion on this matter will be forthcoming from me, so, by all means, feel free to rant on.

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  70. @Cloak And Dagger
    It should come as no surprise to anyone that the law is only meant for we ordinary citizens and not for the elite. Those of us who are silently hoping for the indictment of Debbie and Hillary are sure to be sorely disappointed.

    There is no justice anymore in these United States whose domestic and foreign policies are controlled by the deep state. Some days can be so bleak...

    The killing of Seth Rich is not in the news. The killing of AG Lynch pilot is not in the news, the scandal of theft from Haity charity funds by the Clinton crime family is not in the news. The funding of Hillary election campaign by Qatar and Saudi Arabia is not in the news. The American Uranium given to the Russian by the Clintons is not in the news. I can go on and on. My point is our population has been converted to robots. The media will tell them to get angry, and they get angry. They tell them to think sh’t happen, and they will disregard theft and murder. Our media is the number one enemy to this republic. Trump should save the nukes; instead of bombing N.Korea, he should bomb The NY Times and the Washington Post? Our destruction is coming from within! Idiots like McCain, for example should be behind bars in Guantanamo?

    Read More
    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    Look haven't you figured out yet that the US/world Media is simply the propaganda arm of the DNC, and they, the DNC agents/operatives within the media, most certainly will not implicate their own scoundrels involved in any of these numerous crimes, period.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro Jazz musician.

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  71. @RobinG
    Highly unlikely. Libs. Right. This is for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovBsfVxmqw
    With SETH RICH INVESTIGATOR & Citizen Journalist @RealMattCouch LIVE in Washington DC

    The issue about Seth Rich, and the complete silenced media about it makes people who rightly distrusted the libturds create stories. The narratives of Silverstein purchase of WTC on the cheap, and the Asbestos issues of these towers, and the melting point of steel have never been discussed by the media, thus the people are free to create theories.

    Cover ups are done for reasons. Idiots who think that our population is 100% stupid, are mistaken, there are at least 10% of America who have some brain, and interest in knowing the truth.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Alden
    Steel and other metal doesn't have to actually melt to become useless. Steel just has to soften enough to bend under the weight of 30 stories and a tower will come down. . Even railroad tracks become soft enough to bend in ordinary heat waves of 100F+. Lots of cookware is not supposed to go in ovens with temperatures over 500F. Baking pans often get warped even in 375 F ovens after a while. I don't know enough about engineering and physics to have an opinion about the steel columns that supported the towers. But I do know about jewish lightning and the NYC tradition of insurance fraud to believe Silverstein was in on it. I suspect he gave a major kick back of the insurance payment to whoever arranged the attack on the WTC.

    Does anyone know if the columns were steel or just some kind of iron steel mix?
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  72. Sam Shama says:
    @MEexpert

    Israeli doctors aid any and all injured or otherwise in need of medical assistance, including the life-saving procedures performed on PA chief Abbas and his kin.
     
    You must be joking. Help, like the one the Israeli soldier gave to the injured palestinian by shooting him point blank or when Israeli soldiers prevent palestinians from going to hospitals and let them die on the road. Abbas is on Israeli payroll. Israel needs to keep him alive to be used in the future.

    Let's not make this discussion devolve into this trope of "Israel helps ISIS!"]
     
    Why not? It is a fact. Israel has been helping injured ISIS terrorists and sending them back to the battle front. Truth hurts.

    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court. This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA’s and Hamas’ payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood. The Trump administration has asked the PA to discontinue this policy.

    I was speaking about Israeli doctors, especially those operating from her northern border, not vengeful halfwits.

    No further discussion on this matter will be forthcoming from me, so, by all means, feel free to rant on.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court.
     
    Typical hit and run behavior of Zionists. Say your piece and run. Not going to let you get away with it.

    Elor Azaria is a national hero in Israel. His appeal may have been rejected by the court but there is a petition being circulated for clemency for him, which has Netanyahu's full support. It is almost certain that he will soon be freed.

    This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA’s and Hamas’ payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood.
     
    PA gets its money from Israel as Mahmoud Abbas is on Israel's payroll. Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. Now they are heroes. Hamas is fighting for the land stolen by the Zionists. Only a demented mind will call them terrorists.

    Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make the truth go away.
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  73. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Wassergate. Great suggestion.
     
    I prefer Zion-gate.

    I prefer Zion-gate.

    Every. Damn. Time.

    Read More
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  74. Alden says:
    @dcite

    It seems highly unlikely he was killed in the course of a robbery “that went bad” as the libs like to say.
     
    Robbery is ok to liberals, depending on the demographics of the perp and victim. However, even they find it harder to be so positive about murder, so that's a "robbery gone bad."
    Even intelligent people like the detective use that absurd term without thinking.

    This is only circumstantial evidence. But the fact that the shooting took place at 4:19 AM is circumstantial evidence that it wasn’t an ordinary street crime.
    By 4 AM the victims and criminals are home in bed. There’s a big surge of street crime between 2 and 3 AM when the bars and clubs close and customers and employees go home. But after 3 almost nothing.

    And nothing normal like phone and wallet was stolen. It would take less than a minute to start searching for wallet etc. Although there is no way of knowing what Rich was carrying and if anything was taken.

    A nurse claims Rich was expected to recover and the death in the hospital was suspicious.

    Whoever had him killed is very arrogant and sure of themselves. They expected to just shoot him and get away with it. And they succeeded.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    "
    They expected to just shoot him and get away with it. And they succeeded."
    The shooters must have been amateurs.
    A professional would have killed with the first shot.
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  75. Alden says:
    @Man on the street
    The issue about Seth Rich, and the complete silenced media about it makes people who rightly distrusted the libturds create stories. The narratives of Silverstein purchase of WTC on the cheap, and the Asbestos issues of these towers, and the melting point of steel have never been discussed by the media, thus the people are free to create theories.

    Cover ups are done for reasons. Idiots who think that our population is 100% stupid, are mistaken, there are at least 10% of America who have some brain, and interest in knowing the truth.

    Steel and other metal doesn’t have to actually melt to become useless. Steel just has to soften enough to bend under the weight of 30 stories and a tower will come down. . Even railroad tracks become soft enough to bend in ordinary heat waves of 100F+. Lots of cookware is not supposed to go in ovens with temperatures over 500F. Baking pans often get warped even in 375 F ovens after a while. I don’t know enough about engineering and physics to have an opinion about the steel columns that supported the towers. But I do know about jewish lightning and the NYC tradition of insurance fraud to believe Silverstein was in on it. I suspect he gave a major kick back of the insurance payment to whoever arranged the attack on the WTC.

    Does anyone know if the columns were steel or just some kind of iron steel mix?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    Steel is an alloy of aluminum and iron.
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  76. @Man on the street
    The killing of Seth Rich is not in the news. The killing of AG Lynch pilot is not in the news, the scandal of theft from Haity charity funds by the Clinton crime family is not in the news. The funding of Hillary election campaign by Qatar and Saudi Arabia is not in the news. The American Uranium given to the Russian by the Clintons is not in the news. I can go on and on. My point is our population has been converted to robots. The media will tell them to get angry, and they get angry. They tell them to think sh't happen, and they will disregard theft and murder. Our media is the number one enemy to this republic. Trump should save the nukes; instead of bombing N.Korea, he should bomb The NY Times and the Washington Post? Our destruction is coming from within! Idiots like McCain, for example should be behind bars in Guantanamo?

    Look haven’t you figured out yet that the US/world Media is simply the propaganda arm of the DNC, and they, the DNC agents/operatives within the media, most certainly will not implicate their own scoundrels involved in any of these numerous crimes, period.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro Jazz musician.

    Read More
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  77. Alden says:
    @The Alarmist
    Occam's razor ... she schtupped him, and she must have really enjoyed it.

    I don’t think Debbie and Awan had anything sexual going on. They were ghost employees who seldom showed up. They probably bribed Debbie to get the job and then gave her kickbacks from their salaries and bank loans. That is standard hiring and retention practice in turd world countries.

    They are plenty of do nothing ghost employees in government jobs in DC. Usually its a wife employed by another congress critter. Or not really employed or working, just on the payroll. All the City of Chicago Alderman and Cook County Ill Supervisors had such an arrangement of do nothing wives and relatives on each other’s payrolls. The Chicago Sun Times and Tribune were not totally PR agencies for the Demorats at the time so it was a big scandal. Nothing was done of course. Maybe some of the wives and relatives showed up for “work” for a couple weeks, but it continued.

    As far as I know, Nancy Pelosi’s children don’t seem to have real careers. They sort of drift from some bogus city job to another.

    Read More
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  78. Skeptikal says:
    @annamaria
    Actually, the whole Awan-US Congress case is about the High Treason. No security clearances. The open access to the classified documents of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (oh the irony!) and the House Committee on Foreign Affairs. http://dailycaller.com/2017/02/04/exclusive-house-intelligence-it-staffers-fired-in-computer-security-probe/
    There are should be arrests made of those congresspeople who allowed the greatest breach in the national cybersecurity by inviting and financing the non-qualified personnel (fraudulent hiring).
    An important question is, who pays Chris Gowen, a very expensive and well-connected lawyer, for the defense of the documented fraudster and possible spy.
    That Steven Wasserman, Assistant Attorney for the District of Columbia, the brother of Debbie Wasserman-Schultz oversees the investigation is a scandal of gigantic proportions.
    Those making the presstituting peeps about Russiangate should be from now on pummelled with the facts of the Tale of the Brothers Awan.

    Yes, one can’t help noticing the ongoing Tsunami of Russiagate babble as compared to the remarkable silence concerning actual fraud, security, and treason issues raised by this Awan Brothers scandal.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sowhat
    • Replies: @annamaria
    On a different but related theme, there is more news on the Kagans' clan' triumph in Ukraine: "Ukraine hollows out," http://theduran.com/ukraine-hollows-out/
    "Since independence and especially since the Maidan coup Ukraine has experienced a population collapse unprecedented in post Second World War Europe.
    ....
    The economic and demographic collapse of Ukraine puts it in an extremely weak position compared to all of its neighbors: Ukraine is now in all aspects much weaker than the smaller Romania, Slovakia and Hungary. The main problem, however, may come from Poland, which has not forgotten that almost 100,000 km² of the West of Ukraine used to belong to Poland until 1939. The relations between the two countries are already getting sour because of the glorification of Ukrainian nationalists and Ukrainian Waffen-SS volunteers, who massacred not only Jews but also many Poles. There is no risk of war between the two countries in a foreseeable future, but Poland, America’s most servile vassal in Eastern Europe, knows how easy it can be to invade another country in the name of democracy and Western values and get away with it. This may be far-fetched, but more simply if millions of West-Ukrainians live in Poland and obtain Polish citizenship, Ukraine might very well become Poland’s vassal state. Hiding the real demographic disaster might prevent Polish politicians from even planning such a take-over."
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  79. Skeptikal says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    What if the Awan brothers are "cutouts" for another intelligence agency? What if Seth Rich leaked the emails, and they exposed Hillary Clinton to prosecution? What if the "deep state" panicked because it could no longer control the narrative? What if Comey dragged his feet on a slam-dunk investigation because the "deep state" was sure Clinton would win, and it could all be buried? What if they hadn't had time to consider "Plan B" in time to head off investigation of Clinton Foundation fraud? What if they never expected that Anthony Wiener's sexting would get his computer seized by the NYPD? What if the whole story extends back to the Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus? What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit? What if Mueller is the historical analogue of John J. McCloy, the anonymous "deep state" Chairman of the Board? What if this is just a plot in the latest episode of war pornography? What if it's called, "Debbie Does Dulles", and its stars include "Many Talented Celebrities"? What are the chances that somebody important goes to jail? I'm guessing the odds are pretty long. I'm betting Hillary has the goods on all of them, and she'll file that affidavit if she has to.

    FG:

    I can follow your story until here.
    “What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit?”

    Why do”planning stages” predate Bush-Chency admin?
    Planning stages of what?
    Not sure what you are saying also with the Russia-Gate /Clinton-Gate thing.
    Nor with the “One side refuses to fold” and the sworn affadavit?

    Can you flesh this out for me? Thanks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @F. G. Sanford
    Simply go to YouTube and re-watch that interview with Matt Lauer. "Me in handcuffs will never happen...cackle, cackle, cackle!" You gotta quit being so...skeptical. What could she possibly know that makes her bulletproof? It's not the least bit difficult to figure out.
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  80. Tinker says:
    @Ivy
    Where is the outrage? Where is the coverage? Wolf, Anderson, Jake, Erin, anybody at CNN? Of course, I don't expect them to acknowledge the issue.

    If you really want to know what is going on with the Awan Bros., DWS, DNC, Hilary, Dem Congressmen go to this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZnOS1O6k0
    IT IS AMAZING WHAT ISN’T BEING COVERED BY THE MSM

    Read More
    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    How about giving us some bullet points of what the video says? Or is this just clickbait?

    Some people prefer to READ.
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  81. MEexpert says:
    @Sam Shama
    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court. This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA's and Hamas' payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood. The Trump administration has asked the PA to discontinue this policy.

    I was speaking about Israeli doctors, especially those operating from her northern border, not vengeful halfwits.

    No further discussion on this matter will be forthcoming from me, so, by all means, feel free to rant on.

    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court.

    Typical hit and run behavior of Zionists. Say your piece and run. Not going to let you get away with it.

    Elor Azaria is a national hero in Israel. His appeal may have been rejected by the court but there is a petition being circulated for clemency for him, which has Netanyahu’s full support. It is almost certain that he will soon be freed.

    This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA’s and Hamas’ payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood.

    PA gets its money from Israel as Mahmoud Abbas is on Israel’s payroll. Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. Now they are heroes. Hamas is fighting for the land stolen by the Zionists. Only a demented mind will call them terrorists.

    Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make the truth go away.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Begin etc "wete all terrorists". But "only a demented mind will call them [Hamas] terrorists". Que?!
    , @Skeptikal
    " Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. "
    Yes, also Moshe Arens--all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
    This is off-topic for this thread on Seth Rich, but . . . Begin and Co. were all terrorists.
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  82. @Alden
    Steel and other metal doesn't have to actually melt to become useless. Steel just has to soften enough to bend under the weight of 30 stories and a tower will come down. . Even railroad tracks become soft enough to bend in ordinary heat waves of 100F+. Lots of cookware is not supposed to go in ovens with temperatures over 500F. Baking pans often get warped even in 375 F ovens after a while. I don't know enough about engineering and physics to have an opinion about the steel columns that supported the towers. But I do know about jewish lightning and the NYC tradition of insurance fraud to believe Silverstein was in on it. I suspect he gave a major kick back of the insurance payment to whoever arranged the attack on the WTC.

    Does anyone know if the columns were steel or just some kind of iron steel mix?

    Steel is an alloy of aluminum and iron.

    Read More
    • Replies: @F. G. Sanford
    Steel is iron and carbon, not an "alloy", but some steel is prepared by alloying iron with tungsten or other metals. Stainless steel is mostly nickel. Railroad tracks don't "melt" due to hot weather, but they may warp on the ties due to linear expansion. That is rare and does not generally result in permanent deformation. And, steel cannot melt in a kerosene fire. If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!
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  83. @Skeptikal
    FG:

    I can follow your story until here.
    "What if somebody realizes that the planning stages had to predate the Bush-Cheney administration? What if Russia-gate and Clinton-gate are playing out as two hands in a game of strip poker? What if one side refuses to fold? What if Hillary threatens to file a sworn affidavit?"

    Why do"planning stages" predate Bush-Chency admin?
    Planning stages of what?
    Not sure what you are saying also with the Russia-Gate /Clinton-Gate thing.
    Nor with the "One side refuses to fold" and the sworn affadavit?

    Can you flesh this out for me? Thanks.

    Simply go to YouTube and re-watch that interview with Matt Lauer. “Me in handcuffs will never happen…cackle, cackle, cackle!” You gotta quit being so…skeptical. What could she possibly know that makes her bulletproof? It’s not the least bit difficult to figure out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    This doesn't answer my basic question, which is not meant to be hostile. Just a question.
    So, comment about "don't be so skeptical" is pointless comment.
    I am not be sceptical; I am being ignorant. Big difference. But not getting further infos out of F.G.
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  84. @Seamus Padraig
    Steel is an alloy of aluminum and iron.

    Steel is iron and carbon, not an “alloy”, but some steel is prepared by alloying iron with tungsten or other metals. Stainless steel is mostly nickel. Railroad tracks don’t “melt” due to hot weather, but they may warp on the ties due to linear expansion. That is rare and does not generally result in permanent deformation. And, steel cannot melt in a kerosene fire. If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn't subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.
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  85. annamaria says:
    @Skeptikal
    Yes, one can't help noticing the ongoing Tsunami of Russiagate babble as compared to the remarkable silence concerning actual fraud, security, and treason issues raised by this Awan Brothers scandal.

    On a different but related theme, there is more news on the Kagans’ clan’ triumph in Ukraine: “Ukraine hollows out,” http://theduran.com/ukraine-hollows-out/
    “Since independence and especially since the Maidan coup Ukraine has experienced a population collapse unprecedented in post Second World War Europe.
    ….
    The economic and demographic collapse of Ukraine puts it in an extremely weak position compared to all of its neighbors: Ukraine is now in all aspects much weaker than the smaller Romania, Slovakia and Hungary. The main problem, however, may come from Poland, which has not forgotten that almost 100,000 km² of the West of Ukraine used to belong to Poland until 1939. The relations between the two countries are already getting sour because of the glorification of Ukrainian nationalists and Ukrainian Waffen-SS volunteers, who massacred not only Jews but also many Poles. There is no risk of war between the two countries in a foreseeable future, but Poland, America’s most servile vassal in Eastern Europe, knows how easy it can be to invade another country in the name of democracy and Western values and get away with it. This may be far-fetched, but more simply if millions of West-Ukrainians live in Poland and obtain Polish citizenship, Ukraine might very well become Poland’s vassal state. Hiding the real demographic disaster might prevent Polish politicians from even planning such a take-over.”

    Read More
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  86. MarkinLA says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    Steel is iron and carbon, not an "alloy", but some steel is prepared by alloying iron with tungsten or other metals. Stainless steel is mostly nickel. Railroad tracks don't "melt" due to hot weather, but they may warp on the ties due to linear expansion. That is rare and does not generally result in permanent deformation. And, steel cannot melt in a kerosene fire. If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn’t subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    Read More
    • Replies: @F. G. Sanford
    It doesn't matter how many tons of kerosene or how long it burns, kerosene can't get close to hot enough. And in the self- cleaning mode, your oven is way hotter than 500F. But have at it if you will, some people believe in the Easter Bunny too. That doesn't change the fact that rabbits don't lay eggs.
    , @Alden
    My self cleaning oven manual says it cleans at 800 degrees.
    , @dcite

    over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.
     
    I know it wouldn't look like a knife through soft butter or an animated cartoon with special effects direct from Hollywood. Nor would the Tower collapse into a neat footprint like a well-bred Victorian lady fainting in coils, one of the mysteries the Mock Turtle confided to Alice in Wonderland.

    But better minds than mine have taken a look at all that, over these past 16 years, and concluded, no, it would not have happened like the Official Commission says.
    , @Anon
    This is such a basic point that it's just astounding to me that anyone bothers to argue otherwise. The Twin Towers were subjected to a severe impact and a major fire. They weren't built to withstand something like that.

    And yes, they were built to withstand impact from a plane, but not a plane going at top speed and the expectation was that 50% it would be a plane nearly out of fuel and on its way to land to LaGuardia, Newark, or Kennedy.
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  87. Eagle Eye says:
    @Tinker
    If you really want to know what is going on with the Awan Bros., DWS, DNC, Hilary, Dem Congressmen go to this link https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lZnOS1O6k0
    IT IS AMAZING WHAT ISN'T BEING COVERED BY THE MSM

    How about giving us some bullet points of what the video says? Or is this just clickbait?

    Some people prefer to READ.

    Read More
    • Agree: Alden
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  88. @MarkinLA
    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn't subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    It doesn’t matter how many tons of kerosene or how long it burns, kerosene can’t get close to hot enough. And in the self- cleaning mode, your oven is way hotter than 500F. But have at it if you will, some people believe in the Easter Bunny too. That doesn’t change the fact that rabbits don’t lay eggs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    550 or 800 isn't anywhere close to a constant burning flame. At 800 it is still cycling on and off.
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  89. Skeptikal says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    Simply go to YouTube and re-watch that interview with Matt Lauer. "Me in handcuffs will never happen...cackle, cackle, cackle!" You gotta quit being so...skeptical. What could she possibly know that makes her bulletproof? It's not the least bit difficult to figure out.

    This doesn’t answer my basic question, which is not meant to be hostile. Just a question.
    So, comment about “don’t be so skeptical” is pointless comment.
    I am not be sceptical; I am being ignorant. Big difference. But not getting further infos out of F.G.

    Read More
    • Replies: @F. G. Sanford
    No, you are not ignorant. You are obviously a nice person and quite intelligent. You are also probably more curious than skeptical, but no need to split hairs. I can suggest a line of reasoning, but I cannot go further than that. A man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still. Most people are beyond convincing once they have drawn a conclusion. Consider the timeline. That's as far as I'm willing to go. If Hillary Clinton goes to jail, that will prove I was wrong.
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  90. Skeptikal says:
    @RobinG
    Highly unlikely. Libs. Right. This is for you.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XovBsfVxmqw
    With SETH RICH INVESTIGATOR & Citizen Journalist @RealMattCouch LIVE in Washington DC

    Jeez, after a minute I can see why this is “citizen journalism” and no way “professional level journalism.” Get it together, guys. I am waiting for some news.

    Read More
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  91. @Skeptikal
    This doesn't answer my basic question, which is not meant to be hostile. Just a question.
    So, comment about "don't be so skeptical" is pointless comment.
    I am not be sceptical; I am being ignorant. Big difference. But not getting further infos out of F.G.

    No, you are not ignorant. You are obviously a nice person and quite intelligent. You are also probably more curious than skeptical, but no need to split hairs. I can suggest a line of reasoning, but I cannot go further than that. A man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still. Most people are beyond convincing once they have drawn a conclusion. Consider the timeline. That’s as far as I’m willing to go. If Hillary Clinton goes to jail, that will prove I was wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    You, too, are probably "quite intelligent." And you also sound somewhat coy.
    That is why I don't understand why you don't answer my basic questions, which is, how you get to "planned before Cheney-Bush." And what, precisely, was planned before Cheney-Bush?
    Spit it out, man!
    , @Skeptikal
    Dear Mr. FG:
    You are funny with your "quite intelligent" and "nice person."
    Only the more intelligent can assess the less or "quite."
    You actually thought I was serious when I said "I am ignorant."
    I meant: In this context, as I cannot follow all of your argument.
    You sound like you take yourself very seriously indeed and have quite a high opinion of yourself!!
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  92. Alden says:
    @MarkinLA
    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn't subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    My self cleaning oven manual says it cleans at 800 degrees.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    It still cycles on and off to maintain 800 degrees. If it didn't it would have temperatures close to those of a kiln. Well it wouldn't get that hot because your house would be on fire long before that.
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  93. @MEexpert

    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court.
     
    Typical hit and run behavior of Zionists. Say your piece and run. Not going to let you get away with it.

    Elor Azaria is a national hero in Israel. His appeal may have been rejected by the court but there is a petition being circulated for clemency for him, which has Netanyahu's full support. It is almost certain that he will soon be freed.

    This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA’s and Hamas’ payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood.
     
    PA gets its money from Israel as Mahmoud Abbas is on Israel's payroll. Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. Now they are heroes. Hamas is fighting for the land stolen by the Zionists. Only a demented mind will call them terrorists.

    Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make the truth go away.

    Begin etc “wete all terrorists”. But “only a demented mind will call them [Hamas] terrorists”. Que?!

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  94. Skeptikal says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    No, you are not ignorant. You are obviously a nice person and quite intelligent. You are also probably more curious than skeptical, but no need to split hairs. I can suggest a line of reasoning, but I cannot go further than that. A man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still. Most people are beyond convincing once they have drawn a conclusion. Consider the timeline. That's as far as I'm willing to go. If Hillary Clinton goes to jail, that will prove I was wrong.

    You, too, are probably “quite intelligent.” And you also sound somewhat coy.
    That is why I don’t understand why you don’t answer my basic questions, which is, how you get to “planned before Cheney-Bush.” And what, precisely, was planned before Cheney-Bush?
    Spit it out, man!

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    PNAC, for one thing.
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  95. RobinG says:
    @Skeptikal
    You, too, are probably "quite intelligent." And you also sound somewhat coy.
    That is why I don't understand why you don't answer my basic questions, which is, how you get to "planned before Cheney-Bush." And what, precisely, was planned before Cheney-Bush?
    Spit it out, man!

    PNAC, for one thing.

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    • Replies: @Skeptikal
    So you are saying there is a direct line between the PNAC and the Seth Rich thing?
    That Seth Rich derailed the PNAC plan?Or, you are saying that Hillary's election was integral to the PNAC plan to continue to take over the world and sideline Russia, and SEth Rich queered her election.
    Is that the point?
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  96. Skeptikal says:
    @RobinG
    PNAC, for one thing.

    So you are saying there is a direct line between the PNAC and the Seth Rich thing?
    That Seth Rich derailed the PNAC plan?Or, you are saying that Hillary’s election was integral to the PNAC plan to continue to take over the world and sideline Russia, and SEth Rich queered her election.
    Is that the point?

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Sorry, I spoke out of turn.. Maybe FG will explain about his "... Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus?"
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  97. RobinG says:
    @Skeptikal
    So you are saying there is a direct line between the PNAC and the Seth Rich thing?
    That Seth Rich derailed the PNAC plan?Or, you are saying that Hillary's election was integral to the PNAC plan to continue to take over the world and sideline Russia, and SEth Rich queered her election.
    Is that the point?

    Sorry, I spoke out of turn.. Maybe FG will explain about his “… Mueller, Wolfowitz, Clarke and Tenet cabal, and all of their think-tank gurus?”

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  98. Skeptikal says:
    @MEexpert

    Elor Azaria has been stripped-off of his IDF service record [a highly punitive action, tantamount to social ostracism], convicted and gaoled, his appeals rejected by the military court.
     
    Typical hit and run behavior of Zionists. Say your piece and run. Not going to let you get away with it.

    Elor Azaria is a national hero in Israel. His appeal may have been rejected by the court but there is a petition being circulated for clemency for him, which has Netanyahu's full support. It is almost certain that he will soon be freed.

    This stands in contrast to the rewards and pension payments made to terrorists on PA’s and Hamas’ payrolls who view murder as a means of earning a comfortable livelihood.
     
    PA gets its money from Israel as Mahmoud Abbas is on Israel's payroll. Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. Now they are heroes. Hamas is fighting for the land stolen by the Zionists. Only a demented mind will call them terrorists.

    Sticking your head in the sand is not going to make the truth go away.

    ” Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. ”
    Yes, also Moshe Arens–all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
    This is off-topic for this thread on Seth Rich, but . . . Begin and Co. were all terrorists.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth
     
    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people's land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft -- before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people's land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them 'title' to another people's land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it's quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel's work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann's movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: "The Ritchie Boys" were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions -- including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

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  99. Skeptikal says:
    @Alden
    This is only circumstantial evidence. But the fact that the shooting took place at 4:19 AM is circumstantial evidence that it wasn't an ordinary street crime.
    By 4 AM the victims and criminals are home in bed. There's a big surge of street crime between 2 and 3 AM when the bars and clubs close and customers and employees go home. But after 3 almost nothing.

    And nothing normal like phone and wallet was stolen. It would take less than a minute to start searching for wallet etc. Although there is no way of knowing what Rich was carrying and if anything was taken.

    A nurse claims Rich was expected to recover and the death in the hospital was suspicious.

    Whoever had him killed is very arrogant and sure of themselves. They expected to just shoot him and get away with it. And they succeeded.


    They expected to just shoot him and get away with it. And they succeeded.”
    The shooters must have been amateurs.
    A professional would have killed with the first shot.

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  100. annamaria says:

    A picture of a man trusted by the US Congress: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryVavTF6hR0
    This swindler, tax evader, and scoundrel, who single-handedly propelled Magnitsky Act through the clueless US Congress, is running like a petty thief (that he is at his heart) from a subpoena. https://consortiumnews.com/2017/08/09/how-congress-learns-about-russia/

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  101. geokat62 says:

    Late-breaking news:

    Israel Held Secret Talks With US, Russia to Object to Syria Ceasefire

    Israel Complains Calm in Syria Benefits Iran

    Israeli officials and other diplomats familiar with the situation are finally detailing the circumstances regarding the lead-up to the southern Syrian ceasefire agreement reached between the US and Russia, revealing secret talks were held in Amman and in an unnamed European capital city about the plan beforehand.

    Israeli officials were involved in the talks, and unsurprising given their public position since the ceasefire was announced, made clear they were unconditionally opposed to the ceasefire agreement, and objected to the creation of safe zones to limit combat in the areas.

    The reason for Israel’s opposition to the ceasefire similarly appears to have been exactly what they’ve complained about since, that the[y] believe any calm in Syria necessarily benefits Iran, and that anything that might conceivably move toward ending the Syria War must hand Iran some sort of specific defeat.

    It is this Iran-centric view of the Syrian conflict, despite Iran having a fairly limited involvement in it, which has led Israeli military officials to say they don’t want ISIS to lose in Syria, and since the ceasefire’s announcement that they are prepared to join the conflict simply to ensure that Iran, by which they mean the Shi’ite government, doesn’t win.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2017/08/09/israel-held-secret-talks-with-us-russia-to-object-to-syria-ceasefire/

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  102. Skeptikal says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    No, you are not ignorant. You are obviously a nice person and quite intelligent. You are also probably more curious than skeptical, but no need to split hairs. I can suggest a line of reasoning, but I cannot go further than that. A man convinced against his will is a man of the same opinion still. Most people are beyond convincing once they have drawn a conclusion. Consider the timeline. That's as far as I'm willing to go. If Hillary Clinton goes to jail, that will prove I was wrong.

    Dear Mr. FG:
    You are funny with your “quite intelligent” and “nice person.”
    Only the more intelligent can assess the less or “quite.”
    You actually thought I was serious when I said “I am ignorant.”
    I meant: In this context, as I cannot follow all of your argument.
    You sound like you take yourself very seriously indeed and have quite a high opinion of yourself!!

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  103. geokat62 says:

    The latest developments in Zion-gate. It appears the Israel-firsters have managed to partner with the R2Pers to create a new think tank, a successor to PNAC, called (in true Orwellian fashion) the Alliance for Securing (Regime Change… er I mean) Democracy.

    The emerging unholy alliance between hawkish Democrats and neoconservatives

    President Trump’s gibes about the failure of our foreign policy establishment and his call for a still rudimentary “America first” policy have led hawkish Republican neoconservatives to close ranks with “indispensable nation” Democrats. A remarkably unrepentant establishment has moved to resistance. If the United States is to avoid the limited choice between the delusional and the disastrous, a new progressive stance on foreign policy is utterly imperative.

    The neocons — led by the likes of Bill Kristol, Max Boot and Dick Cheney — were the ideological motor behind President George W. Bush’s invasion of Iraq, the worst foreign policy debacle since the Vietnam War. The indispensable-nation crowd — personified by Hillary Clinton, Madeleine Albright and Michele Flournoy — were initial supporters of the Iraq War, championed President Barack Obama’s “surge” in Afghanistan and helped orchestrate the disastrous regime change in Libya. Neither the neocons nor the indispensable-nation crowd has been instructed nor daunted by failure.

    Illustrative of their emerging alliance, as Glenn Greenwald reports, is yet another Beltway foreign policy initiative: the Alliance for Securing Democracy. The Alliance describes itself as a “bipartisan, transatlantic initiative” focused on Russia. Its purpose is to “develop comprehensive strategies to defend against, deter and raise the costs on Russian and other actors,” while working to “expose Vladimir Putin’s ongoing efforts to subvert democracy in the United States and Europe.” Consider this an updated version of Kristol and Robert Kagan’s 1997 Project for the New American Century, which fulminated for the invasion of Iraq. The Alliance’s advisory council includes Jake Sullivan, Clinton’s foreign policy adviser, and Mike Morell, acting CIA director under Obama. They sit comfortably with Kristol, Mike Chertoff, homeland security secretary under Bush, and hawkish former Republican congressman Mike Rogers. With a record of catastrophic foreign policy fiascoes, the establishment comes together to strike back.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/the-emerging-unholy-alliance-between-hawkish-democrats-and-neoconservatives/2017/08/08/3c1c7676-7bb5-11e7-9d08-b79f191668ed_story.html?utm_term=.1fb5ce8dae75

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  104. geokat62 says:

    This one is for Corvy, who is still expecting the Lugenpresse of Weimerica (e.g.,. the NYT and WaPo) to print these kinds of stories on their respective front pages:

    How a Free Syrian Army Unit Uncovered the Rebels’ Israeli Connection and Switched Sides

    Founded as one of the dizzying array of fighting units in Syria’s six-year civil war, the genesis of the Golan Brigade was one of the most remarkable. The brigade was established in 2014 by Syrian fighters who had defected from the Free Syrian Army rebel group after they made a shocking discovery: their unit had been coordinating with the Israelis.

    After switching sides to support the Syrian government, they witnessed the Israeli military providing direct air cover for attacks launched against them by Al Qaeda. The Israelis even tried to kill Majed on several occasions before Al Qaeda’s Syrian franchise, Nusra, finally did him in.

    This July, I met veterans of the Golan Brigade and heard their stories. They painted a picture of the war that stood almost entirely at odds with the dominant narrative of the conflict spun out in Western mainstream media. And this is perhaps why they have received so little attention.

    http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/free-syrian-army-unit-uncovered-rebels-israeli-connection-and-switched-sides#.WYs-wm7xJGk.twitter

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Israel needs ISIS to secure the Golan Heights. This is why Israelis do not want to see ISIS defeated and this is why Russians are vilified by the MSM ziocon presstitutes. The US servile brass jumps on Israelis order to please AIPAC. https://www.rt.com/op-edge/399108-us-lies-russia-nato/
    "In September 2015, following an official request by the Syrian government for military assistance against Islamic State fighters on its territory, Russia entered the fray. Before Russia's grand entrance, ISIS had managed to not only put up stiff resistance against US-led forces; they also managed to operate a lucrative oil exporting business. Russia wasted no time putting this operation out of business, while helping Syria liberate major ISIS strongholds, including Palmyra and Aleppo.

    Despite Russian military successes in Syria with regards to eliminating ISIS, the US has stubbornly refused to help Russia in its efforts. This became apparent last summer when Moscow urged Washington to provide it with the location and coordinates of fighting forces to avoid incidents and prevent any accidental strikes on those groups fighting ISIS and Jabhat Al Nusra.
    The US inexplicably refused to share those coordinates.

    "As a result, terrorists in Syria are actively regrouping, and tensions are soaring again. It cannot continue this way indefinitely," the head of the Russian General Staff Valery Gerasimov said, adding that the Russian Defense Ministry had supplied the US with a list of its terrorist targets.

    Gerasimov then pointed the finger at the US for double standards concerning what constitutes ceasefire violations. "In their opinion, missile bombardments of Syrian government troops and communities by militants should be considered by all as ‘insignificant violations’ of the ceasefire. But any proportionate response to the militants by the Syrian military is at once declared as disproportionate strikes on the opposition," Gerasimov said.

    In April, the Trump administration launched a military strike - the first US attack on Syrian military assets - on the Syrian government's Al-Shayrat air base in response to unsubstantiated claims the Syrian government used chemical weapons that killed civilians in Idlib Province.

    The tragedy of the Syrian six-year civil war is that so much violence and bloodshed could have been avoided had the United States welcomed Russia's willingness to join the fight against terrorism in the country. Instead, Washington has chosen a path that attempts to punish Russia, I believe, for interfering in yet another US attempt at regime change in yet another sovereign state. That is the real source of US contempt for Russia at this particular juncture in bilateral relations between the nuclear powers. Not some imaginary "hacking of the US elections," or "Russian aggression." That's just media camouflage."

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  105. annamaria says:
    @geokat62
    This one is for Corvy, who is still expecting the Lugenpresse of Weimerica (e.g.,. the NYT and WaPo) to print these kinds of stories on their respective front pages:

    How a Free Syrian Army Unit Uncovered the Rebels’ Israeli Connection and Switched Sides

    Founded as one of the dizzying array of fighting units in Syria’s six-year civil war, the genesis of the Golan Brigade was one of the most remarkable. The brigade was established in 2014 by Syrian fighters who had defected from the Free Syrian Army rebel group after they made a shocking discovery: their unit had been coordinating with the Israelis.

    After switching sides to support the Syrian government, they witnessed the Israeli military providing direct air cover for attacks launched against them by Al Qaeda. The Israelis even tried to kill Majed on several occasions before Al Qaeda’s Syrian franchise, Nusra, finally did him in.

    This July, I met veterans of the Golan Brigade and heard their stories. They painted a picture of the war that stood almost entirely at odds with the dominant narrative of the conflict spun out in Western mainstream media. And this is perhaps why they have received so little attention.

    http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/free-syrian-army-unit-uncovered-rebels-israeli-connection-and-switched-sides#.WYs-wm7xJGk.twitter
     

    Israel needs ISIS to secure the Golan Heights. This is why Israelis do not want to see ISIS defeated and this is why Russians are vilified by the MSM ziocon presstitutes. The US servile brass jumps on Israelis order to please AIPAC. https://www.rt.com/op-edge/399108-us-lies-russia-nato/
    “In September 2015, following an official request by the Syrian government for military assistance against Islamic State fighters on its territory, Russia entered the fray. Before Russia’s grand entrance, ISIS had managed to not only put up stiff resistance against US-led forces; they also managed to operate a lucrative oil exporting business. Russia wasted no time putting this operation out of business, while helping Syria liberate major ISIS strongholds, including Palmyra and Aleppo.

    Despite Russian military successes in Syria with regards to eliminating ISIS, the US has stubbornly refused to help Russia in its efforts. This became apparent last summer when Moscow urged Washington to provide it with the location and coordinates of fighting forces to avoid incidents and prevent any accidental strikes on those groups fighting ISIS and Jabhat Al Nusra.
    The US inexplicably refused to share those coordinates.

    “As a result, terrorists in Syria are actively regrouping, and tensions are soaring again. It cannot continue this way indefinitely,” the head of the Russian General Staff Valery Gerasimov said, adding that the Russian Defense Ministry had supplied the US with a list of its terrorist targets.

    Gerasimov then pointed the finger at the US for double standards concerning what constitutes ceasefire violations. “In their opinion, missile bombardments of Syrian government troops and communities by militants should be considered by all as ‘insignificant violations’ of the ceasefire. But any proportionate response to the militants by the Syrian military is at once declared as disproportionate strikes on the opposition,” Gerasimov said.

    In April, the Trump administration launched a military strike – the first US attack on Syrian military assets – on the Syrian government’s Al-Shayrat air base in response to unsubstantiated claims the Syrian government used chemical weapons that killed civilians in Idlib Province.

    The tragedy of the Syrian six-year civil war is that so much violence and bloodshed could have been avoided had the United States welcomed Russia’s willingness to join the fight against terrorism in the country. Instead, Washington has chosen a path that attempts to punish Russia, I believe, for interfering in yet another US attempt at regime change in yet another sovereign state. That is the real source of US contempt for Russia at this particular juncture in bilateral relations between the nuclear powers. Not some imaginary “hacking of the US elections,” or “Russian aggression.” That’s just media camouflage.”

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  106. annamaria says:

    The US is ruled by AIPAC in cahoot with war profiteers of Cheney kind: http://www.businessinsider.com/israel-grants-golan-heights-oil-license-2013-2

    “Israel has granted a U.S. company the first license to explore for oil and gas in the occupied Golan Heights, John Reed of the Financial Times reports.

    A local subsidiary of the New York-listed company Genie Energy — which is advised by former vice president Dick Cheney and whose shareholders include Jacob Rothschild and Rupert Murdoch — will now have exclusive rights to a 153-square mile radius in the southern part of the Golan Heights.

    That geographic location will likely prove controversial. Israel seized the Golan Heights in the Six-Day War in 1967 and annexed the territory in 1981. Its administration of the area — which is not recognized by international law — has been mostly peaceful until the Syrian civil war broke out 23 months ago.

    “This action is mostly political – it’s an attempt to deepen Israeli commitment to the occupied Golan Heights,” Israeli political analyst Yaron Ezrahi told FT. “The timing is directly related to the fact that the Syrian government is dealing with violence and chaos and is not free to deal with this problem.”

    The Syrian tragedy — and the whole history of the US “humanitarian intervention” in the Middle East — brings to mind the Holocaust Museums. The state of Israel is living through moral death. The Lobby stinks from the rot.

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  107. “Did the Russians really hack into the DNC or were there other possibilities, to include some kind of inside job, a “leak,” carried out by someone working for the government or DNC for reasons that have yet to be determined, possibly even someone actually employed by DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz?”

    Craig Murray said it was a leak as far back as 2016 and stated he’d met the leaker with all subsequent clues pointing to Seth Rich (the old ‘it’s a leak not a hack’ story that seemed to bug Robin G to no end.) Now, just a week or so ago a recording had been released wherein Seymour Hersh states ‘Russiagate’ is a creation of John Brennan’s imagination and names the leaker as DNC computer technician Seth Rich, it would seem altogether independently of Craig Murray:

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/seymour-hersh-phone-call-russiagate-disinformation/230531/

    ps, for Robin G, I see you’re still pushing the same stoner-citizen ‘journalists’ (they come across like they smoke WAY too much weed) that couldn’t find their own butt-cheeks with both hands… jeeez… what’s up with that? Afraid of succinct reporting on Seth Rich?

    So, what’s up with the writers at Unz.com? Nothing on the Seymour Hersh recording where he flat out states the FBI KNOWS Seth Rich dumped the DNC mail on wikileaks and the Russia story is a CIA invention? ? ?? ???

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    A link to Hersh's recording was on Unz's homepage for a week.
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  108. Rurik says:

    the FBI KNOWS Seth Rich dumped the DNC mail on wikileaks and the Russia story is a CIA invention?

    we all know that because we all know by now that the FBI had no interest in looking at the DNC servers and computers. When the Federal Bureau of Investigations showed no interest in INVESTIGATING Federal crimes, it was obvious.

    just as the ‘Russian’ lunacy is all obvious

    what isn’t so obvious are the motivating factors…

    is Trump part of a rogue deepstate breakaway faction?

    are there elements inside the CIA/FBI/NSA etc.. that whisked Trump into office because they really hate Hillary that much?

    those are the kinds of questions that we don’t know..

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  109. annamaria says:

    Smart bribing: “Fifty-three members of US Congress off to Israel for their annual brainwashing” http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/47573.htm
    “A decade ago, the House banned groups from paying for extended trips as part of the fallout from the scandal over lobbyist Jack Abramoff. But a loophole allowed educational foundations to pick up the tab. The Israel trips are estimated at $10,000 per person.
    “Members of Congress feel indebted to someone who provides them with a week’s long vacation. It’s lobbying and it’s more effective than direct lobbying on Capitol Hill,” Craig Holman of the watchdog group Public Citizen, who helped draft the 2007 laws, told the Tampa Bay Times in 2013.
    “This is not what lobbying should be about,” Holman said. “It should be about providing information and expertise so lawmakers can make better decisions, not trying to buy their favors with gifts and travel junkets.”

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  110. dcite says:
    @MarkinLA
    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn't subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    I know it wouldn’t look like a knife through soft butter or an animated cartoon with special effects direct from Hollywood. Nor would the Tower collapse into a neat footprint like a well-bred Victorian lady fainting in coils, one of the mysteries the Mock Turtle confided to Alice in Wonderland.

    But better minds than mine have taken a look at all that, over these past 16 years, and concluded, no, it would not have happened like the Official Commission says.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    There is plenty of material ejected sideways as the building comes down. Maybe you really didn't look too hard at the video. Of course, most of it comes straight down - that is what gravity does. It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.
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  111. cn13 says:

    Can I please give a shout out Debbie’s hairstylist!!!

    Now that is the gift that keeps on giving.

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  112. @Skeptikal
    " Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. "
    Yes, also Moshe Arens--all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
    This is off-topic for this thread on Seth Rich, but . . . Begin and Co. were all terrorists.

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth

    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people’s land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft — before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them ‘title’ to another people’s land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it’s quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel’s work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann’s movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: “The Ritchie Boys” were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions — including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler's troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I'll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    , @Mulegino1
    When so called "terrorist" tactics are employed, it all depends upon the context in which they occur.

    When the Zionists decapitated British soldiers, and slaughtered Arab women and children in Palestine they were "Zionist pioneers" and "Freedom fighters." When the Soviet partisans or the French Maquis murdered, tortured and mutilated members of the Axis forces, they were hailed as patriotic heroes. When the right type of Wahhabi monsters cut off the heads of Christians, Shiites and Allawites (not to mention ordinary Sunnis) they are "moderate rebels." When the Chief Rabbi of the Sephardim declares non-Jews to be mere beasts of burdens and animals, he is applauded.

    On the other hand, the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front who execute prisoners as a reprisal for partisan attacks are labelled as "mass murderers." When Hezbollah drives the IDF from Lebanese soil, it is labelled as a "terrorist organization." When Assad acts to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Syria, he is called a dictator.

    We in the west live in a very kosher world.

    , @Sam Shama
    "Grundmann's movement", "Aryan Jesus", "Jewish Influence in German Religious Life", and wait, I am struck especially, by this priceless howler, "a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted "

    "Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own."

    No, of course, they didn't. They used Love and poetry; with eyes firmly fixed on the future, the occasional Messerschmitt and Panzer, they waltzed in peace into Austria, Sudetenland, Belgium, .........I forget; can you remind me?

    I admire your indefatigable industry to try your hand at comedy. Carry on. Beware though, humourist, unrequited comics are known to end up as bitter old men.

    , @Skeptikal
    Darn it, I SAID . . .
    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, **youth organizations connected to a political party*I)
    So what is your problem?
    Just read and quote the whole sentence, not a fragment, before you go off on a tear defending the Hitler Youth because they didn't steal land in Palestine. I didn't say that they did. I said that these groups had the fanaticism of youth.
    Jeez.
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  113. Avery says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth
     
    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people's land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft -- before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people's land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them 'title' to another people's land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it's quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel's work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann's movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: "The Ritchie Boys" were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions -- including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler’s troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I’ll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union. In other words, the second greatest invasion force in history preempted the greatest. But that is old news. It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their "Great Patriotic War" in peace and leave them be. Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945, but they emerged with their soul intact. On the other hand, Western and Central Europe, which also suffered horribly, did not. They handed over their European culture, heritage and soul for a pot of Zionist-Yankee porridge, for which they are currently suffering the pains of damnation.
    , @Skeptikal
    When I said:
    no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth

    I didn't mean that all youth groups are the same in their aims or activities.
    I merely meant that when I learned of the Betar organization I was struck by the fact that a number of political parties in approximately the same period created youth organizations that channeled the zeal and energy and self-conviction that is typical of adolescents into carrying out the program of a state party. One could also cite the Red Guards in this context.

    I am half German myself and I do feel that the NS episode, while still far from fully understood in the sense of how Hitler was used by outside powers, in its result created a situation where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to reflexively dump on Germans and Germany. Especially if they (the dumpers) are American Jews. Even though, obviously, a lot of Germans were Jewish. I also feel that Merkel was nuts to open the borders to all migrants. It is pretty ironic because the German govt does not recognize many people whose parents were forced to flee the country in the thirties as German, but hundreds of thousands of migrants are being welcomed and helped to establish new lives in Germany. But that is a whole nother story.

    , @Skeptikal
    "And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?"
    Where are you getting this????
    Whenever Hitler enters the conversation, rationality and logic seem to fly out the door.
    BTW Hitler was not German.
    Jeez.
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    It's time for your meds.
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  114. Mulegino1 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth
     
    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people's land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft -- before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people's land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them 'title' to another people's land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it's quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel's work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann's movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: "The Ritchie Boys" were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions -- including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

    When so called “terrorist” tactics are employed, it all depends upon the context in which they occur.

    When the Zionists decapitated British soldiers, and slaughtered Arab women and children in Palestine they were “Zionist pioneers” and “Freedom fighters.” When the Soviet partisans or the French Maquis murdered, tortured and mutilated members of the Axis forces, they were hailed as patriotic heroes. When the right type of Wahhabi monsters cut off the heads of Christians, Shiites and Allawites (not to mention ordinary Sunnis) they are “moderate rebels.” When the Chief Rabbi of the Sephardim declares non-Jews to be mere beasts of burdens and animals, he is applauded.

    On the other hand, the Einsatzgruppen on the Eastern Front who execute prisoners as a reprisal for partisan attacks are labelled as “mass murderers.” When Hezbollah drives the IDF from Lebanese soil, it is labelled as a “terrorist organization.” When Assad acts to defend the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Syria, he is called a dictator.

    We in the west live in a very kosher world.

    Read More
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  115. Mulegino1 says:
    @Avery
    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler's troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I'll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union. In other words, the second greatest invasion force in history preempted the greatest. But that is old news. It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their “Great Patriotic War” in peace and leave them be. Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945, but they emerged with their soul intact. On the other hand, Western and Central Europe, which also suffered horribly, did not. They handed over their European culture, heritage and soul for a pot of Zionist-Yankee porridge, for which they are currently suffering the pains of damnation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their “Great Patriotic War” in peace and leave them be.
     
    no, we can't because it's their celebrating and chest-thumping that is causing alarm in Eastern Europe, and opening the door to the Fiend/Bolshevik/Zio-war pigs/International Banksters ... to do it all over again.

    Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945,
     
    but more to the point they suffered after the war was over as Stalin's agenda became known to the world once and for all, and when he gobbled up Eastern Europe and obviously wanted it all, Germany most of all, it became OBVIOUS that Hitler and the Nazis were right all along, and that Stalin and the Bolsheviks were hell bent in global domination. Duh

    that Eastern Europe still has its nads intact, is only because ((they're)) over here (in the West) now, and doing what they do- destroying culture and replacing spirituality with sewage and leading their armies...

    http://i.imgur.com/Y98M416.jpg

    if for no other reason than seeing what France and Sweden and England have become, and more to the point, where they're going! - that's all the motivation anyone should need to know that Hitler had a point!
    , @MarkinLA
    If Germany was defending Europe it could have been more successful by simply creating an alliance with all the countries on the border of the USSR with Germany as the leader. German military technological superiority in a dug in position would have withstood any Red Army invasion.
    , @Anon
    Interesting. So you concede that the Einsatzgruppen executed prisoners in reprisals. That's encouraging. Who were these prisoners? Were they soldiers or civilians or some mix? Were they limited in age? What number of Soviet people were the Einsatzgruppen happy to execute in response to a partisan attack?
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  116. Rurik says:
    @Mulegino1
    What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union. In other words, the second greatest invasion force in history preempted the greatest. But that is old news. It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their "Great Patriotic War" in peace and leave them be. Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945, but they emerged with their soul intact. On the other hand, Western and Central Europe, which also suffered horribly, did not. They handed over their European culture, heritage and soul for a pot of Zionist-Yankee porridge, for which they are currently suffering the pains of damnation.

    It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their “Great Patriotic War” in peace and leave them be.

    no, we can’t because it’s their celebrating and chest-thumping that is causing alarm in Eastern Europe, and opening the door to the Fiend/Bolshevik/Zio-war pigs/International Banksters … to do it all over again.

    Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945,

    but more to the point they suffered after the war was over as Stalin’s agenda became known to the world once and for all, and when he gobbled up Eastern Europe and obviously wanted it all, Germany most of all, it became OBVIOUS that Hitler and the Nazis were right all along, and that Stalin and the Bolsheviks were hell bent in global domination. Duh

    that Eastern Europe still has its nads intact, is only because ((they’re)) over here (in the West) now, and doing what they do- destroying culture and replacing spirituality with sewage and leading their armies…

    if for no other reason than seeing what France and Sweden and England have become, and more to the point, where they’re going! – that’s all the motivation anyone should need to know that Hitler had a point!

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  117. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth
     
    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people's land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft -- before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people's land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them 'title' to another people's land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it's quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel's work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann's movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: "The Ritchie Boys" were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions -- including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

    “Grundmann’s movement”, “Aryan Jesus”, “Jewish Influence in German Religious Life”, and wait, I am struck especially, by this priceless howler, “a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted

    “Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.”

    No, of course, they didn’t. They used Love and poetry; with eyes firmly fixed on the future, the occasional Messerschmitt and Panzer, they waltzed in peace into Austria, Sudetenland, Belgium, ………I forget; can you remind me?

    I admire your indefatigable industry to try your hand at comedy. Carry on. Beware though, humourist, unrequited comics are known to end up as bitter old men.

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    • Troll: SolontoCroesus
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  118. MarkinLA says:
    @F. G. Sanford
    It doesn't matter how many tons of kerosene or how long it burns, kerosene can't get close to hot enough. And in the self- cleaning mode, your oven is way hotter than 500F. But have at it if you will, some people believe in the Easter Bunny too. That doesn't change the fact that rabbits don't lay eggs.

    550 or 800 isn’t anywhere close to a constant burning flame. At 800 it is still cycling on and off.

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  119. MarkinLA says:
    @dcite

    over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.
     
    I know it wouldn't look like a knife through soft butter or an animated cartoon with special effects direct from Hollywood. Nor would the Tower collapse into a neat footprint like a well-bred Victorian lady fainting in coils, one of the mysteries the Mock Turtle confided to Alice in Wonderland.

    But better minds than mine have taken a look at all that, over these past 16 years, and concluded, no, it would not have happened like the Official Commission says.

    There is plenty of material ejected sideways as the building comes down. Maybe you really didn’t look too hard at the video. Of course, most of it comes straight down – that is what gravity does. It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sparkon

    It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.
     
    This is fascinating what you can learn at Unz.com: most of the building "comes straight down," you say, but some of it bounces on out of there with a spin, when it hit something hard.

    Indeed, that is some powerful spin, not that you ignored dcite's good points to raise your own flimsy ones, or anything, but you are entirely free, of course to flesh this all out for us, so we may see how it works.

    , @dcite

    Maybe you really didn’t look too hard at the video.
     
    OK. I'll take a harder look-see. I guess we have to trust nobody did a C.D. Jackson on it. Nevertheless, is amazing in these Change-the-Game disaster events with political implications, that things fall-in-place so well. They happen after breakfast or lunch, and yet full bios of the perps are available for the evening news; passports drop like gentle rain from blazing infernos above, blessing those that find with such quick solutions to what could have been an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
    Several of the "hijackers" were truly shocked (not "shocked! shocked!") by their notoriety, as they were still alive and well in Saudi Arabia and they sued the FBI. One young man could not fly at all and had lost his passport in Colorado.
    I prefer Instant Karma to Imagine but in another observation, Lennon was spot on: mostly insane people run the world. The most successful just hide it better than Ms. Debbie W-S.
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  120. MarkinLA says:
    @Alden
    My self cleaning oven manual says it cleans at 800 degrees.

    It still cycles on and off to maintain 800 degrees. If it didn’t it would have temperatures close to those of a kiln. Well it wouldn’t get that hot because your house would be on fire long before that.

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  121. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1
    What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union. In other words, the second greatest invasion force in history preempted the greatest. But that is old news. It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their "Great Patriotic War" in peace and leave them be. Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945, but they emerged with their soul intact. On the other hand, Western and Central Europe, which also suffered horribly, did not. They handed over their European culture, heritage and soul for a pot of Zionist-Yankee porridge, for which they are currently suffering the pains of damnation.

    If Germany was defending Europe it could have been more successful by simply creating an alliance with all the countries on the border of the USSR with Germany as the leader. German military technological superiority in a dug in position would have withstood any Red Army invasion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {German military technological superiority in a dug in position would have withstood any Red Army invasion}

    Exactly.

    This was proven by actual events in WW2.
    After the massive defeat at Stalingrad, when the strategic initiative shifted to the Red Army, and Wehrmacht started their long retreat back to Berlin, they still fought doggedly.

    Even with about 80% of their best and toughest men, and ~80% of their hardware lost on the Eastern front, Wehrmacht withdrew in good fighting order from USSR territory and managed to give a bloody nose to the pursuing Red Army on more than one occasion.

    No WW2 army would be able to break through an intact Wehrmacht if they dug in and defended Germany. They were so good, that they conquered all of Europe in a few months and reached all the way to the Volga river, about 3,000 klicks from Berlin.

    France, a major European military power, which had more and better artillery and tanks than Germany, lasted less than 2 months,

    , @Hippopotamusdrome
    Poland was invited to join the Anti-Comintern Pact, but they turned it down.
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  122. Skeptikal says:
    @Avery
    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler's troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I'll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    When I said:
    no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth

    I didn’t mean that all youth groups are the same in their aims or activities.
    I merely meant that when I learned of the Betar organization I was struck by the fact that a number of political parties in approximately the same period created youth organizations that channeled the zeal and energy and self-conviction that is typical of adolescents into carrying out the program of a state party. One could also cite the Red Guards in this context.

    I am half German myself and I do feel that the NS episode, while still far from fully understood in the sense of how Hitler was used by outside powers, in its result created a situation where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to reflexively dump on Germans and Germany. Especially if they (the dumpers) are American Jews. Even though, obviously, a lot of Germans were Jewish. I also feel that Merkel was nuts to open the borders to all migrants. It is pretty ironic because the German govt does not recognize many people whose parents were forced to flee the country in the thirties as German, but hundreds of thousands of migrants are being welcomed and helped to establish new lives in Germany. But that is a whole nother story.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    About the Awans as possible cutouts -

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/pakistans-military-cooperation-with-israel/
    "During the last three decades, Israel and Pakistan had a constructive rapprochement to coordinate their stances on the Afghan issue and exchange military information. There was a turning point in the country’s foreign policy, when Pakistan worked closely with Israel..."

    That is, if the whole thing doesn't peter out as minor financial crime.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " Where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to dump on Germans and Germany"

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a "von", a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) , I would wager to say that many Americans are aware of the one central fact pertaining to German culture and that being that the Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    They simply cannot keep their mouths shut regarding the internal politics of other nations and their incessant critique' of US conditions such as the madness regarding the election of DT has reached the state of manic obcession.

    They do not know wtf they are blathering about with such absurd claims as : the USA has no social systems or social assistance programs.

    And then there is their lunatic hyping of themselves as Poets and thinkers : "Dichter und Denker", when fact is that during the enlightenment the only " Dichter und Denker" in the "Fürstentümer" were the court mentored Philosophers, composers, etc, the German folk itself having consisted of illiterate farmers, mine workers etc.

    One could go on and on with the problems surrounding this most neurotic folk and nation, so let it be said : They are their one worst enemies.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet , and pro Jazz musician
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  123. Skeptikal says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth
     
    Disagree.

    Revisionist zionists used terror to steal other people's land and manipulated other governments to be complicit in the theft -- before turning on those other governments and kicking them out.

    Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people's land but rather defending their own.

    Zionist Jews were/are ideologically driven by a contrived supremacist narrative cynically linked to Hebrew scripture that granted them 'title' to another people's land, and the right to take it by force and deceit.

    As Unz readers know (or should be aware by now), the opening shot of WWII was fired only after all other means of defending Germans who were being abused in territory that Versailles sliced off of Germany and gave to Poland: NS attempted to negotiate if not return of that territory, then at least transit through the region, and protection for German-Speaking citizens of now-Poland. This scenario is nothing like what Jews were attempting in Palestine.

    Furthermore, and ironically, Germans in the NS era are roundly denounced as antisemites for seeking to amplify a Christian creed from which Hebrew scripture influence is extracted (see The Aryan Jesus:
    Christian Theologians and the Bible in Nazi Germany , http://press.princeton.edu/titles/8820.html ) In other words, German Christians in Germany attempted to define their own Christian beliefs in a way that distinguished them from Jews.

    It seems that due to a hasbaratic process that magnifies Jewish interpretations and silences all alternative information, it's quite difficult to find information about Walter Grundmann and the Christian movement he led; Susannah Heschel's work sucks all the oxygen out of research into Grundmann's movement, the Institute for the Study and Eradication of Jewish Influence on German Religious Life.

    PS Jewish terrorists did not operate only in Palestine: "The Ritchie Boys" were German Jews who became members of US military forces and were deployed back to Germany to subvert, spy upon, and carry out sabotage on Germany. They were among those who gathered the tons of German documents now in US archives; Ritchie Boys were key participants in Nuremberg prosecutions -- including torture, falsification of documents & witnesses, etc.

    Darn it, I SAID . . .
    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, **youth organizations connected to a political party*I)
    So what is your problem?
    Just read and quote the whole sentence, not a fragment, before you go off on a tear defending the Hitler Youth because they didn’t steal land in Palestine. I didn’t say that they did. I said that these groups had the fanaticism of youth.
    Jeez.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    imo Zionism was a far greater and obviously longer-lasting evil than National Socialism.

    I also consider knee-jerk comparisons to Hitler/Nazees where H & Nazees are the definition of evil to be childish, simplistic, and counterproductive.

    Employing such rhetoric does the fiend's work for it.

    PS the zionists who infiltrated Germany, raised havoc in Palestine and drove out the legitimate owners of that place were not teenagers sowing their oats, they were and still are terrorists.

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  124. Skeptikal says:
    @Avery
    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler's troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I'll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    “And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?”
    Where are you getting this????
    Whenever Hitler enters the conversation, rationality and logic seem to fly out the door.
    BTW Hitler was not German.
    Jeez.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {Where are you getting this????}

    I am getting this by reading comments @unz when WW2 is discussed.
    For many years and many different threads.
    There are several posters, who I assume to be of German descent or sympathizers of Nazis/Hitler, who post comments defending Hitler's invasion of USSR.
    You can see one in this thread: [Mulegino1].

    {What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union.}

    (a bogus excuse, having been debunked by many historians, notably David M. Glantz, an American military historian.)

    Read poster [MarkinLA] reply #121, and tell us if poster [Mulegino1] is not nostalgic for Hitler.

    Yeah, Hitler was not German-German: he was Austrian, a Germanic ethnos.
    Aaaand.....80 million German-Germans followed and obeyed him: all the way to the Gates of Hell.
    Napoleon was not French: he was Corsican, but we don't say Corsica invaded e.g. Russia: France and the Grande Arme did.


    Oh,almost forgot: "Jeeze Lousie".
    So, there.

    , @Skeptikal
    Excuse me, Avery.
    I am not part of "And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him."
    So, give it a rest.
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  125. Sparkon says:
    @MarkinLA
    There is plenty of material ejected sideways as the building comes down. Maybe you really didn't look too hard at the video. Of course, most of it comes straight down - that is what gravity does. It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.

    It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.

    This is fascinating what you can learn at Unz.com: most of the building “comes straight down,” you say, but some of it bounces on out of there with a spin, when it hit something hard.

    Indeed, that is some powerful spin, not that you ignored dcite’s good points to raise your own flimsy ones, or anything, but you are entirely free, of course to flesh this all out for us, so we may see how it works.

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    • Replies: @MarkinLA
    What was dcite's "good" point, that some people smarter than him believed the big conspiracy? We have plenty of bullshit "science" in the social sciences. All these "better minds than mine" that exist in those places have given us most of our really stupid social policies.

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that? When I say bounces - everything that lands on something else has some bounce even if it is microscopic.
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  126. RobinG says:
    @Skeptikal
    When I said:
    no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth

    I didn't mean that all youth groups are the same in their aims or activities.
    I merely meant that when I learned of the Betar organization I was struck by the fact that a number of political parties in approximately the same period created youth organizations that channeled the zeal and energy and self-conviction that is typical of adolescents into carrying out the program of a state party. One could also cite the Red Guards in this context.

    I am half German myself and I do feel that the NS episode, while still far from fully understood in the sense of how Hitler was used by outside powers, in its result created a situation where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to reflexively dump on Germans and Germany. Especially if they (the dumpers) are American Jews. Even though, obviously, a lot of Germans were Jewish. I also feel that Merkel was nuts to open the borders to all migrants. It is pretty ironic because the German govt does not recognize many people whose parents were forced to flee the country in the thirties as German, but hundreds of thousands of migrants are being welcomed and helped to establish new lives in Germany. But that is a whole nother story.

    About the Awans as possible cutouts -

    http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/pakistans-military-cooperation-with-israel/

    “During the last three decades, Israel and Pakistan had a constructive rapprochement to coordinate their stances on the Afghan issue and exchange military information. There was a turning point in the country’s foreign policy, when Pakistan worked closely with Israel…”

    That is, if the whole thing doesn’t peter out as minor financial crime.

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  127. annamaria says:
    @exiled off mainstreet
    The Department of Justice needs to do its job looking at the Clintons, the DNC, Wasserman-Schultz, Donna Brazile and others. The stench of corruption is appalling, and the Russia thing looks more like a fraudulent story to keep the pressure off, particularly since the phony dossier which started it was compiled at the behest of a political consultancy which usually works for the same crowd. I think it is about time that Mueller's fishing expedition be closed down and the necessary draining of the swamp be commenced.

    Here is an excellent report, expert and measured, on the stupid and fast-melting Russiangate. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-10/new-report-raises-big-questions-about-last-year’s-dnc-hack

    “On the evening of July 5, 2016, 1,976 megabytes of data were downloaded from the DNC’s server. The operation took 87 seconds. This yields a transfer rate of 22.7 megabytes per second.
    These statistics are matters of record and essential to disproving the hack theory. No Internet service provider, such as a hacker would have had to use in mid-2016, was capable of downloading data at this speed. Compounding this contradiction, Guccifer claimed to have run his hack from Romania, which, for numerous reasons technically called delivery overheads, would slow down the speed of a hack even further from maximum achievable speeds.
    In addition, there is the adulteration of the documents Guccifer 2.0 posted on June 15, when he made his first appearance. This came to light when researchers penetrated what Folden calls Guccifer’s top layer of metadata and analyzed what was in the layers beneath. They found that the first five files Guccifer made public had each been run, via ordinary cut-and-paste, through a single template that effectively immersed them in what could plausibly be cast as Russian fingerprints. They were not: The Russian markings were artificially inserted prior to posting. “It’s clear,” another forensics investigator self-identified as HET, wrote in a report on this question, “that metadata was deliberately altered and documents were deliberately pasted into a Russianified [W]ord document with Russian language settings and style headings.”
    Behind the ICA lie other indefensible realities. The FBI has never examined the DNC’s computer servers—an omission that is beyond preposterous. It has instead relied on the reports produced by Crowdstrike, a firm that drips with conflicting interests well beyond the fact that it is in the DNC’s employ. Dmitri Alperovitch, its co-founder and chief technology officer, is on the record as vigorously anti-Russian. He is a senior fellow at the Atlantic Council, which suffers the same prejudice. Problems such as this are many.”

    Who has been conducting the forensics: “The chief researchers active on the DNC case are four: William Binney, formerly the NSA’s technical director for world geopolitical and military analysis and designer of many agency programs now in use; Kirk Wiebe, formerly a senior analyst at the NSA’s SIGINT Automation Research Center; Edward Loomis, formerly technical director in the NSA’s Office of Signal Processing; and Ray McGovern, an intelligence analyst for nearly three decades and formerly chief of the CIA’s Soviet Foreign Policy Branch. Most of these men have decades of experience in matters concerning Russian intelligence and the related technologies.” No ziocons. Quelle surprise!

    Well, a group of loyal Americans with the highest expertise in techs on one side and an opportunistic Jewish Russophobe on the other. Alperovitch joins Debby and her brother Mr. Wasserman, who has been also in charge of the investigation into the murder of Seth Righ, as a main suspect in the slanderous and highly dangerous Russiangate. Other brainless and Israel-minded Democrats are with Debby for now.

    Seth Rich (January 3, 1989 – July 10, 2016) was an American employee for the Democratic National Committee (DNC) who was fatally shot in the Bloomingdale neighborhood of Washington, D.C. His murder is unsolved. Debby’ brother Mr. Wasserman has been in charge of the stalled investigation.

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  128. Avery says:
    @Skeptikal
    "And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?"
    Where are you getting this????
    Whenever Hitler enters the conversation, rationality and logic seem to fly out the door.
    BTW Hitler was not German.
    Jeez.

    {Where are you getting this????}

    I am getting this by reading comments @unz when WW2 is discussed.
    For many years and many different threads.
    There are several posters, who I assume to be of German descent or sympathizers of Nazis/Hitler, who post comments defending Hitler’s invasion of USSR.
    You can see one in this thread: [Mulegino1].

    {What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union.}

    (a bogus excuse, having been debunked by many historians, notably David M. Glantz, an American military historian.)

    Read poster [MarkinLA] reply #121, and tell us if poster [Mulegino1] is not nostalgic for Hitler.

    Yeah, Hitler was not German-German: he was Austrian, a Germanic ethnos.
    Aaaand…..80 million German-Germans followed and obeyed him: all the way to the Gates of Hell.
    Napoleon was not French: he was Corsican, but we don’t say Corsica invaded e.g. Russia: France and the Grande Arme did.

    Oh,almost forgot: “Jeeze Lousie”.
    So, there.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    1. For those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: contemplate for a few minutes a pithy piece posted by Pat Lang a month ago: "Analysis is not advocacy." Those who can learn and grow from such an insight, will.

    2. re the extended/distended/distorted discussion re a comparison of Revisionist zionists and Hitler Youth:

    ” Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. ”
    Yes, also Moshe Arens–all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
     
    especially the bolded statement that's caused such agita:

    "(no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party)"

    The only similarity I see is that both groups were young/teenagers. More appropriately, esp. in the case of Jabotinskyites, RZs were young-to slightly older adults, many with superior educations obtained in Germany, Austria, USA, Rome -- in the case of Vladimir Jabotinsky hisself: jabotinsky's friend and biographer, J. Schectman (iirc) recorded that young Vlad found and grounded his "spiritual being" in Rome, where he was an ardent admirer of Mussolini.

    While young Jabotinsky was reveling in the Russian literature of his home town of Odessa -- where he disdained most association with things Jewish -- then traveling to Rome to immerse himself in studies at universities there, future "Hitler Youth" were living in squalor, their bodies displaying rickets, intellectual deficiencies and other impacts of malnourishment in their youths, brought about by starvation blockades imposed on German civilians -- women and children -- by those guardians of civilization, the British, with a little help from Chaim Weizmann and his cohort who traded German children for a "Homeland for Jews in Palestine." (Jews have a long history of taking out their revenge fantasies on other people's children ***)

    I don't think "Hitler Youth" were "self-righteous bullies." Aware of their background and context (i.e. attempting to do analysis, not advocacy), I perceive them as teenagers whose childhood had presaged a bleak future; they were given a new lease on life, a new future, by organization, inspiration and discipline delivered by the NS government [there was a film clip of a German who had been a youth in the NSDAP era, who reflected in positive terms on his life as a Hitler youth. I can no longer find it via a google search. Perhaps Wally can help??]

    Die Fahne Hoch tells the story the Hitler Youth vested in; the lyrics contain a remembrance of their dead comrade, Horst Wessel; they valorize the "brown battalion" and "SS" who cleared the streets of what had been frequent riots involving "the Red Front" and reactionaries; the lyrics rejoice that the "days of freedom and of bread" were at hand; the German people were unified and had hope under the Stars and Stripes -- oops, I mean under the German battle flag with its swastika symbol. Maybe Avery or Skeptikal or even Wiz of Oz can correct my deluded impression, but I don't see any line or sentiment in Die Fahne Hoch that reflects hatred, or the intent to "dash infant's heads against the rocks" [see *** below], yet early in 1933, James Waterman Wise, son of Rabbi Stephen Wise, wrote and published a book titled Swastika; http://www.unz.org/Pub/WiseJames-1933 (full text https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000417009;view=1up;seq=13 ) it opens with these words:

    "By decree issued in Berlin March 12, 1933, the Nazi banner together with that of the Old Empire was proclaimed the flag of Germany. Upon it was inscribed the Swastika -- symbolizing hatred of the Jew -- and in that sign the new German Government, with Hitler at its head, declared and is waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens."
     
    The first chapter is titled, The Advance Guard of Hate.

    Those opening words, penned sometime between March 12, 1933 and May, 1933, are even more interesting when juxtaposed with a conversation their author's father, Rabbi Stephen Wise, had with then-supreme court justice, ultra-zionist and hofjuden Louis Brandeis sometime in the first two weeks of February, 1933: Brandeis directed Wise that "All Jews must leave Germany . . . I urge that no Jew remain in Germany."
    "How shall all 587,000 Jews should be removed from Germany," replied Wise, incredulous.
    "I urge that no Jew remain in Germany," Brandeis repeated. [see "The Challenging Years," an autobiography, by Rabbi Stephen Wise].

    Makes good sense, you say: Jews in Germany were in grievous peril; of course the 'leader' of zionist Jews would direct that they flee that peril.

    BUT: (1) According the Breitman and Lichtman in "FDR and the Jews," in 1933, Jews in Germany were not only not in a perilous status but the situation of Jews in Germany was calmed by NSDAP: after a short period in which power was consolidated, "NSDAP quelled physical violence against Jews . . . No Jew was sent to a concentration camp until late in 1938."

    (2) According to Francis Nicosia in Zionism and anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany, Jewish zionists from Palestine (the Mossad el-Aliyeh bet) worked openly with Gestapo and other German government authorities to assist German Jews to migrate to Palestine. If Germans were so driven by Jew-hatred that they were "waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens," why were they not killing them on the spot?

    (3) The real threat to Jews was taking place in Poland, home to about 3 million Jews, as well as Russia: in the wake of turmoil in those East European locales, Jews from both of these states clamored to get to Germany. The narrative spun around Herschel Grynszpan reflects the tensions between Jews in Poland, the Polish government, and the quest to migrate to Germany.
    Why didn't Brandeis direct that Jews from Poland be aided to leave Poland and migrate to Palestine?

    (4) Waterman Wise's book calls the Swastika the "symbol of Jew hatred."
    Interesting factoid: According to Ernst ("Putzi") Hanfstaengl, Harvard grad, lunch companion to Franklin Roosevelt, financial backer of the enterprise that published "Mein Kampf" and angel to Adolf Hitler who encouraged him to write the book and later rescued him in the aftermath of the Beer hall Putsch, the "Heil, Hitler" chant was based on a Harvard football cheer, and the bold Red, White and Black Swastika banner that inspired so much fear in Waterman Wise bears an extremely close similarity to banners that dominated the Harvard campus in that era. Harvard's banner symbolizes Hatred of Jews? Who knew?

    (5) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, by combining readings from Vladimir Jabotinsky's staunch vision for the resettlement of "ALL diaspora Jews in Palestine," and Edwin Black's explanations of the dire economic situation of the zionist project in Palestine, exacerbated by British Mandate rules that only wealthy Jews could enter the land -- and only German Jews had that kind of wealth -- it's possible to understand a more try-to-reality version of Brandeis's directive that "All Jews must leave Germany." It was about the money (and the fanatic zionist ideology).



    ----
    *** Many people know the first part of Psalm 137:
    "By the streams of Babylon we sat and wept
    When we remembered Zion . . .
    If I forget thee o Zion may my right hand be forgotten . . ."

    But have you read the entire psalm to its last lines?

    "Daughter Babylon [Germany, Palestine, Iran], doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks."


    In WWI, exactly what did Germany do to Jews that should demand "repayment"? What has Iran done to Jews?

    What's really significant, from my perspective, about Psalm 137 is the fact that it is the basis of Verdi's opera, Nabucco, and the iconic choral, "Va, pensiero," considered by many Italians to be an unofficial Italian 'national anthem.' Verdi subtly but completely reframed Psalm 137: Where the Hebrew psalmist says, "We will hang up our harps and NOT sing our songs," Verdi says:


    Arpa d'or dei fatidici vati,
    perché muta dal salice pendi?
    Le memorie nel petto raccendi,
    ci favella del tempo che fu!


    Golden harp of the prophetic wise men,
    why hang so silently from the willows?
    Rekindle the memories in our hearts,
    tell us about the times gone by!

    And while the Hebrew psalmist concludes his prayer --

    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.


    Verdi prays:

    o t'ispiri il Signore un concento
    che ne infonda al patire virtù!


    [Let us] be inspired by the Lord
    to fortify us to endure our suffering!


    See the essential difference?
    (Notice especially the word, virtù, and recognize that virtù -- manly courage -- was one of Machiavelli's key concepts. Machiavelli wrote that when a state had completely lost its communal virtu, the only possibility for redeeming the state was the creation of a temporary dictatorship willing to take the harsh measures necessary. As both Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen state in their treatments of The Prince, Machiavelli's most admired model was Moses, who was willing to- and did- direct the killing of Jews in order to achieve the conquest of Canaan, the Promised land. )

    Go a step further: I know zip of musicology, but I'm aware of the power of Orpheus, i.e. the salvific power of the harp/music/song: the Hebrew psalmist says, "ain't no way we're going to let foreigners in on our salvific song, or the mystical power of our harp; no, we'll kill your children THEN we'll sing our song to rejoice in our triumph!

    Verdi, and my Italian forebears urge: Sing your songs NOW, when you are so utterly in need of encouragement toward the salvation of your homeland, "so beautiful yet so lost" --

    Oh, mia patria sì bella e perduta!
    Oh, membranza sì cara e fatal!




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laSuOwGgVvQ

    But there's still one more aspect to a comparison of Psalm 137 to Va, pensiero:

    I discovered it through this duet -- Pavarotti and an Italian popular songster singing a (bastardized) version of Va, Pensiero:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bt9RTMDvX4

    Zucchero claims his style is inspired by American R&B, but listen beyond the (obvious) gap in talent between him and Pavarotti, to the words they sing.

    Here's the Zucchero version of Verdi's version of Psalm 137:

    Reach the land find the place
    Where all children go
    Everynight after listening to this lullaby.

    There you'll find their heroes alive
    Protecting their innocence
    Bless them all 'cos their simple soul
    is so pure and wonderful.

    Va' pensiero sull'ali dorate
    Let this beautiful dream carry on
    For all night long.

    Lend them your golden wings
    Every fear will fly away
    Take them by the hand
    Help'em find an easy way

    Lead them back to the light, back to the light
    Where they once used to belong
    Where they can remain
    Children as long as they want.


    The Hebrew Psalmist says, "Kill their children!"

    Verdi says: "Inspire us with manly courage to reclaim our homeland, so beautiful and lost."

    Zuccharo sings: "Help 'em find an easy way . . . Where they can be children as long as they want."

    Draw your own conclusions.

    What do you wish for your children
    -- that they grow up sufficiently motivated to take revenge on other people's children for the (fantasized) wrongs committed against you?

    -- that they grow up steeped in the beauty and possibilities of their homeland, and courageous enough to bring about its revitalization?

    -- that they remain children as long as they want, living in a magical dream world ?

    Hey, on a roll here: Just started reading Dinesh D'Souza's paean to the Jewish holocaust narrative, "The Big Lie." (irony alert). Don't have it at my elbow just now, but I recall that D.D'S. included in his litany of Nazee offenses was the so-called NS national anthem, "Die Fahne Hoch."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T0qDDo1Dk

    D.D'S. belittles the death of Horst Wessel and asserts that the song drafted by Goebbels is an anthem of hate.
    I don't get it.
    Compare Die Fahne Hoch to, say, Toby Keith's "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" --
    does it make you proud to belt out, "We'll put a boot in your eye, It's the American Way" ?

    Which category of "Va, Pensiero" and the salvific power of song does Toby Keith reflect?
    Which category of the salvific power of song does "Die Fahne Hoch" reflect?
    Why are Jews like ADL and their sycophants like Dinesh D'Souza so afraid of "Die Fahne Hoch?"
    , @Mulegino1
    No, David Glantz did not debunk the very palpable fact that the Soviets were preparing a massive invasion of Europe, scheduled for sometime in the summer or early fall of 1941:

    The Red Army was not a "staggering colossus" as the title of Glantz's book implies. The Soviets crushed the Japanese in the Battle of Khalkin Gol in 1939, and- despite taking heavy casualties in the Winter War against Finland- did manage to breach the Mannerheim Line, an extremely formidable and fortified defense.

    The facts on the ground demonstrate quite convincingly that the Soviets were preparing for a massive invasion, with the bulk of their ground forces placed in the Lvov and Byalistock Salients along an east to west axis - perfect for offensive warfare, absolutely disastrous if preempted - which was indeed the case. That is the real reason for the vast encirclements of entire armies and the netting of huge amounts of prisoners during the first few weeks of Barbarossa. The Wehrmacht would never have been able to breach a fortified and strengthened Stalin Line.
    , @Hippopotamusdrome


    There are several posters ... who post comments defending Hitler’s invasion of USSR.

     

    Do you defend America's invasion of USSR?

    American Intervention in Northern Russia,
    1918-1919


    American Expeditionary Forces in Siberia, Russia | 1918-1920 | US Army Documentary
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  129. Avery says:
    @MarkinLA
    If Germany was defending Europe it could have been more successful by simply creating an alliance with all the countries on the border of the USSR with Germany as the leader. German military technological superiority in a dug in position would have withstood any Red Army invasion.

    {German military technological superiority in a dug in position would have withstood any Red Army invasion}

    Exactly.

    This was proven by actual events in WW2.
    After the massive defeat at Stalingrad, when the strategic initiative shifted to the Red Army, and Wehrmacht started their long retreat back to Berlin, they still fought doggedly.

    Even with about 80% of their best and toughest men, and ~80% of their hardware lost on the Eastern front, Wehrmacht withdrew in good fighting order from USSR territory and managed to give a bloody nose to the pursuing Red Army on more than one occasion.

    No WW2 army would be able to break through an intact Wehrmacht if they dug in and defended Germany. They were so good, that they conquered all of Europe in a few months and reached all the way to the Volga river, about 3,000 klicks from Berlin.

    France, a major European military power, which had more and better artillery and tanks than Germany, lasted less than 2 months,

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  130. Excal says:

    So what’s the big deal? They sound like pretty typical US corporate IT people to me.

    Read More
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  131. @Skeptikal
    When I said:
    no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth

    I didn't mean that all youth groups are the same in their aims or activities.
    I merely meant that when I learned of the Betar organization I was struck by the fact that a number of political parties in approximately the same period created youth organizations that channeled the zeal and energy and self-conviction that is typical of adolescents into carrying out the program of a state party. One could also cite the Red Guards in this context.

    I am half German myself and I do feel that the NS episode, while still far from fully understood in the sense of how Hitler was used by outside powers, in its result created a situation where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to reflexively dump on Germans and Germany. Especially if they (the dumpers) are American Jews. Even though, obviously, a lot of Germans were Jewish. I also feel that Merkel was nuts to open the borders to all migrants. It is pretty ironic because the German govt does not recognize many people whose parents were forced to flee the country in the thirties as German, but hundreds of thousands of migrants are being welcomed and helped to establish new lives in Germany. But that is a whole nother story.

    ” Where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to dump on Germans and Germany”

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a “von”, a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) , I would wager to say that many Americans are aware of the one central fact pertaining to German culture and that being that the Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    They simply cannot keep their mouths shut regarding the internal politics of other nations and their incessant critique’ of US conditions such as the madness regarding the election of DT has reached the state of manic obcession.

    They do not know wtf they are blathering about with such absurd claims as : the USA has no social systems or social assistance programs.

    And then there is their lunatic hyping of themselves as Poets and thinkers : “Dichter und Denker”, when fact is that during the enlightenment the only ” Dichter und Denker” in the “Fürstentümer” were the court mentored Philosophers, composers, etc, the German folk itself having consisted of illiterate farmers, mine workers etc.

    One could go on and on with the problems surrounding this most neurotic folk and nation, so let it be said : They are their one worst enemies.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet , and pro Jazz musician

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.
     
    LOL. Exceeded on by Jews :-)
    , @Skeptikal
    Sorry you had such bad luck with your marriages
    It is true that a lot of Germans are the Besserwisser types.
    Especially Prussians . . .
    But as for the rest of your bill of particulars,
    1. What I said, and
    2. Sorry you had such bad luck in your marriages. Wonder why you kept marrying Germans!!!
    , @MEexpert

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a “von”, a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) ,
     
    Couldn't hold to your women.

    It is because of all that "FAKE JAZZ."
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  132. @Ronald Thomas West
    "Did the Russians really hack into the DNC or were there other possibilities, to include some kind of inside job, a “leak,” carried out by someone working for the government or DNC for reasons that have yet to be determined, possibly even someone actually employed by DNC chair Debbie Wasserman-Schultz?"

    Craig Murray said it was a leak as far back as 2016 and stated he'd met the leaker with all subsequent clues pointing to Seth Rich (the old 'it's a leak not a hack' story that seemed to bug Robin G to no end.) Now, just a week or so ago a recording had been released wherein Seymour Hersh states 'Russiagate' is a creation of John Brennan's imagination and names the leaker as DNC computer technician Seth Rich, it would seem altogether independently of Craig Murray:

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/seymour-hersh-phone-call-russiagate-disinformation/230531/

    ps, for Robin G, I see you're still pushing the same stoner-citizen 'journalists' (they come across like they smoke WAY too much weed) that couldn't find their own butt-cheeks with both hands... jeeez... what's up with that? Afraid of succinct reporting on Seth Rich?

    So, what's up with the writers at Unz.com? Nothing on the Seymour Hersh recording where he flat out states the FBI KNOWS Seth Rich dumped the DNC mail on wikileaks and the Russia story is a CIA invention? ? ?? ???

    A link to Hersh’s recording was on Unz’s homepage for a week.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    Good to know, thanks. But it should still be there - and someone should be writing about it -
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  133. Sam Shama says:
    @Authenticjazzman
    " Where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to dump on Germans and Germany"

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a "von", a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) , I would wager to say that many Americans are aware of the one central fact pertaining to German culture and that being that the Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    They simply cannot keep their mouths shut regarding the internal politics of other nations and their incessant critique' of US conditions such as the madness regarding the election of DT has reached the state of manic obcession.

    They do not know wtf they are blathering about with such absurd claims as : the USA has no social systems or social assistance programs.

    And then there is their lunatic hyping of themselves as Poets and thinkers : "Dichter und Denker", when fact is that during the enlightenment the only " Dichter und Denker" in the "Fürstentümer" were the court mentored Philosophers, composers, etc, the German folk itself having consisted of illiterate farmers, mine workers etc.

    One could go on and on with the problems surrounding this most neurotic folk and nation, so let it be said : They are their one worst enemies.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet , and pro Jazz musician

    Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    LOL. Exceeded on by Jews :-)

    Read More
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  134. @Avery
    {Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}

    You are not serious, are you?

    What were Hitler's troops doing in Stalingrad*?
    Defending their own?

    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.

    Hitler _would_ have been defending his own if he had stayed in Germany and had satisfied himself with the legitimate claim to German populated Sudetenland.

    About those Hitler youth: after the Red Army ground up 80% of invading Wehrmacht and rolled into Berlin, only Hitlerjugend and senior citizens were left to defend the 1,000 year Reich of the alleged Master Race against thems Untermenschen of the East.

    Not my place to give advice to Germans, but I'll do it anyway:
    (have great admiration for German people and German civilization, save for the Nazi gang).
    Instead of venerating Hitler and his delusional gang, you guys need to treat him like dirt.
    He is the worst thing that could have happened to the highly civilized German people.
    Because of what Hitler did, Germans today are thoroughly neutered people and Germany today is a Neocon occupied country being slowly but relentlessly Islamized.
    How long before Germans cease to exit as a distinct ethnos?

    And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?
    Heil Hitler!
    Zeig Heil!

    _____________
    * btw: bonus question; how many klicks is Berlin from Stalingrad (Volgograd today), would you know?

    It’s time for your meds.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {It’s time for your meds.}

    Another highly original diagnosis by our old friend Dr. Bovine, M.D.
    It's time for you to go back into the barn and to continue chewing your daily allotment of hay.

    Moo.

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  135. Skeptikal says:
    @Authenticjazzman
    " Where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to dump on Germans and Germany"

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a "von", a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) , I would wager to say that many Americans are aware of the one central fact pertaining to German culture and that being that the Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    They simply cannot keep their mouths shut regarding the internal politics of other nations and their incessant critique' of US conditions such as the madness regarding the election of DT has reached the state of manic obcession.

    They do not know wtf they are blathering about with such absurd claims as : the USA has no social systems or social assistance programs.

    And then there is their lunatic hyping of themselves as Poets and thinkers : "Dichter und Denker", when fact is that during the enlightenment the only " Dichter und Denker" in the "Fürstentümer" were the court mentored Philosophers, composers, etc, the German folk itself having consisted of illiterate farmers, mine workers etc.

    One could go on and on with the problems surrounding this most neurotic folk and nation, so let it be said : They are their one worst enemies.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet , and pro Jazz musician

    Sorry you had such bad luck with your marriages
    It is true that a lot of Germans are the Besserwisser types.
    Especially Prussians . . .
    But as for the rest of your bill of particulars,
    1. What I said, and
    2. Sorry you had such bad luck in your marriages. Wonder why you kept marrying Germans!!!

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  136. Skeptikal says:
    @Skeptikal
    "And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him?"
    Where are you getting this????
    Whenever Hitler enters the conversation, rationality and logic seem to fly out the door.
    BTW Hitler was not German.
    Jeez.

    Excuse me, Avery.
    I am not part of “And you Germans are still nostalgic for Hitler and defend him.”
    So, give it a rest.

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  137. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union. In other words, the second greatest invasion force in history preempted the greatest. But that is old news. It is time to let the Russians to celebrate their "Great Patriotic War" in peace and leave them be. Eastern Europe and the Balkans suffered horribly during the great conflict of 1939-1945, but they emerged with their soul intact. On the other hand, Western and Central Europe, which also suffered horribly, did not. They handed over their European culture, heritage and soul for a pot of Zionist-Yankee porridge, for which they are currently suffering the pains of damnation.

    Interesting. So you concede that the Einsatzgruppen executed prisoners in reprisals. That’s encouraging. Who were these prisoners? Were they soldiers or civilians or some mix? Were they limited in age? What number of Soviet people were the Einsatzgruppen happy to execute in response to a partisan attack?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Far less than the 2M commonly cited.
    , @Mulegino1
    It does not matter, in a legal sense, who they were, since reprisal executions of hostages in response to illegal partisan activity were not against the Hague Convention in force at the time. Insofar as the execution of "children" goes, no doubt a lot of minors were shot. This is not shocking, since many so called "children" were actively engaged in partisan activity. We are not talking about toddlers or very small children, we are talking about adolescents. In any case, if the Germans were taken to task for the execution of so called "children", why were the Allies never taken to task for the mass incineration of men, women and children in the horrendous area bombing campaigns, which DELIBERATELY, and with malice aforethought, targeted them? The answer is simple: the Allies won and the Axis lost, the victors write the (recently post hoc) history books and the vanquished are subject to egregious double standards of so called " justice. "
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  138. MarkinLA says:
    @Sparkon

    It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.
     
    This is fascinating what you can learn at Unz.com: most of the building "comes straight down," you say, but some of it bounces on out of there with a spin, when it hit something hard.

    Indeed, that is some powerful spin, not that you ignored dcite's good points to raise your own flimsy ones, or anything, but you are entirely free, of course to flesh this all out for us, so we may see how it works.

    What was dcite’s “good” point, that some people smarter than him believed the big conspiracy? We have plenty of bullshit “science” in the social sciences. All these “better minds than mine” that exist in those places have given us most of our really stupid social policies.

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that? When I say bounces – everything that lands on something else has some bounce even if it is microscopic.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sparkon

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that?
     
    https://truthandshadows.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/wtc-1-cropped.jpg

    Yes, I do not believe it.

    In the photo, the top 30-some floors of the south tower are still intact, but they have disassociated themselves from the rest of the building, and have been rotated in relationship to it.

    For this to happen, the building's central core must have been severed, and some additional kicker force applied to it above the break, so that the central core remaining in the top portion is out of alignment with the central core in the remainder of the structure.

    It is said that each of the towers weighed 500,000 tons, while a fully fueled 767-200's max gross take-off weight was 157 tons.

    Because the WTC towers' construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    The method of construction makes it difficult to calculate the weight of that ~30-floor segment of WTC 2, except to say it is about 25% of the building's height, and must have weighed more than 50,000 but less than 125,000 tons.

    Therefore, some very powerful force had to be applied to the top portion of the building seen tilting over in the photograph to get the structure into that position, and in the absence of some counter-force to stop it, the rotation should have continued.

    Do you think that the 157 ton airplane -- even at the alleged 500 mph -- had enough energy to sever the building's central core, and provide the rotational force to top 30 floors, after using a lot of energy to slice through the building's cage-like steel box column exterior?

    I don't think the airplane could do that.

    It is certainly possible that powerful charges could sever the central core of the twin towers in as many places as desired, with additional kicker charges to nudge these sections aside so that the entire structure falls into its own footprint, but only a relatively slight displacement of the central core would be necessary to ensure that result, while the photo depicts a much more radical displacement of the building's entire top, which would have required a much more powerful -- but entirely unnecessary -- charge.

    Of course it is conceivable that these images are fake, generated with CGI. Certainly, the airplane videos must be.
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  139. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @MarkinLA
    If steel were so vulnerable to high temperature, your self-cleaning oven would be a lump of slag by now. Cheers!

    Your oven isn't subject to high temperatures. 550 degrees F is nothing. You forget that your oven cycles on and off to maintain a relatively low heat. There is no way to know for a fact what will happen when something over 100 tons slams into a building going 500 MPH and burns tons of jet fuel causing the steel to soften while still having to support 30 floors of a building.

    This is such a basic point that it’s just astounding to me that anyone bothers to argue otherwise. The Twin Towers were subjected to a severe impact and a major fire. They weren’t built to withstand something like that.

    And yes, they were built to withstand impact from a plane, but not a plane going at top speed and the expectation was that 50% it would be a plane nearly out of fuel and on its way to land to LaGuardia, Newark, or Kennedy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Therefore the official account should be uncritically accepted without questioning?
    , @Mulegino1
    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2" of structural steel (1/4" plus 1/4" thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2" of steel plating - say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.
    , @Skeptikal
    That is BS.
    Babbling.
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  140. Osten says:

    Besserwisser?
    Nein, Besserpinkler!

    Read More
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  141. @Anon
    Interesting. So you concede that the Einsatzgruppen executed prisoners in reprisals. That's encouraging. Who were these prisoners? Were they soldiers or civilians or some mix? Were they limited in age? What number of Soviet people were the Einsatzgruppen happy to execute in response to a partisan attack?

    Far less than the 2M commonly cited.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    I don't think anyone is claiming two million. Also, I don't think a number as low as 400k is taking into account anything past December 1941
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  142. @Anon
    This is such a basic point that it's just astounding to me that anyone bothers to argue otherwise. The Twin Towers were subjected to a severe impact and a major fire. They weren't built to withstand something like that.

    And yes, they were built to withstand impact from a plane, but not a plane going at top speed and the expectation was that 50% it would be a plane nearly out of fuel and on its way to land to LaGuardia, Newark, or Kennedy.

    Therefore the official account should be uncritically accepted without questioning?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Strawman
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  143. MEexpert says:
    @Authenticjazzman
    " Where people who understand nothing of German history and culture feel entitled to dump on Germans and Germany"

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a "von", a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) , I would wager to say that many Americans are aware of the one central fact pertaining to German culture and that being that the Germans are the most overbearing obnoxious know-it-all :

    BESSERWISSER

    on this insane planet.

    They simply cannot keep their mouths shut regarding the internal politics of other nations and their incessant critique' of US conditions such as the madness regarding the election of DT has reached the state of manic obcession.

    They do not know wtf they are blathering about with such absurd claims as : the USA has no social systems or social assistance programs.

    And then there is their lunatic hyping of themselves as Poets and thinkers : "Dichter und Denker", when fact is that during the enlightenment the only " Dichter und Denker" in the "Fürstentümer" were the court mentored Philosophers, composers, etc, the German folk itself having consisted of illiterate farmers, mine workers etc.

    One could go on and on with the problems surrounding this most neurotic folk and nation, so let it be said : They are their one worst enemies.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet , and pro Jazz musician

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a “von”, a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) ,

    Couldn’t hold to your women.

    It is because of all that “FAKE JAZZ.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    " Couldn't hold your women"

    " It is because of all that FAKE JAZZ"

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

    How witty and original. You missed your calling as a stand up comic

    I held on to the last one and she is the best of all , so things worked out just right.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.
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  144. @Seamus Padraig
    A link to Hersh's recording was on Unz's homepage for a week.

    Good to know, thanks. But it should still be there – and someone should be writing about it -

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  145. Sparkon says:
    @MarkinLA
    What was dcite's "good" point, that some people smarter than him believed the big conspiracy? We have plenty of bullshit "science" in the social sciences. All these "better minds than mine" that exist in those places have given us most of our really stupid social policies.

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that? When I say bounces - everything that lands on something else has some bounce even if it is microscopic.

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that?

    Yes, I do not believe it.

    In the photo, the top 30-some floors of the south tower are still intact, but they have disassociated themselves from the rest of the building, and have been rotated in relationship to it.

    For this to happen, the building’s central core must have been severed, and some additional kicker force applied to it above the break, so that the central core remaining in the top portion is out of alignment with the central core in the remainder of the structure.

    It is said that each of the towers weighed 500,000 tons, while a fully fueled 767-200′s max gross take-off weight was 157 tons.

    Because the WTC towers’ construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    The method of construction makes it difficult to calculate the weight of that ~30-floor segment of WTC 2, except to say it is about 25% of the building’s height, and must have weighed more than 50,000 but less than 125,000 tons.

    Therefore, some very powerful force had to be applied to the top portion of the building seen tilting over in the photograph to get the structure into that position, and in the absence of some counter-force to stop it, the rotation should have continued.

    Do you think that the 157 ton airplane — even at the alleged 500 mph — had enough energy to sever the building’s central core, and provide the rotational force to top 30 floors, after using a lot of energy to slice through the building’s cage-like steel box column exterior?

    I don’t think the airplane could do that.

    It is certainly possible that powerful charges could sever the central core of the twin towers in as many places as desired, with additional kicker charges to nudge these sections aside so that the entire structure falls into its own footprint, but only a relatively slight displacement of the central core would be necessary to ensure that result, while the photo depicts a much more radical displacement of the building’s entire top, which would have required a much more powerful — but entirely unnecessary — charge.

    Of course it is conceivable that these images are fake, generated with CGI. Certainly, the airplane videos must be.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dcite
    Yes, it is impossible for a building that size to be totally dustified in a few minutes by one or two planes. Totally nonsense. The true perps of this event screwed up big-time. Only the treasonous MSM saved their hides, as it continues to do. An employee of 20 years in the building, Wm. Rodriguez, heard explosions before the planes hit. He was interviewed for hours by the commission "studying" the event, and his testimony did not appear in the final report. Same sort of thing as happened with the Warren Commission. They always use the same M.O. with varying degrees of success depending on the media and the courage and determination of the true investigators.
    Anyone who dismisses many years of serious research and warranted questions as "conspiracy theory" immediately loses any credibility. "Conspiracy theory" was a term invented by the CIA after the JFK assassination in response to questioning the absurd Warren Commission headed by, Allen Dulles, an expert in psychological warfare and sworn enemy of the man whose murder he was supposed to be investigating. If someone is satisfied with the conclusions of Official Government Reports, I wouldn't trust them to investigator the death of my cat. And the conspiracy "theorists" (read facts) are the crazy ones? The media has made us think stupidly and insanely with huge holes in the final product, assuming we all have holes in our heads. I think it was who Orwell who said the lies of the media would be mostly lies of omission. How very prescient.
    , @MarkinLA
    Because the WTC towers’ construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    They can if they are moving downward like a pile driver.

    One floor does not support the entire weight of the building above the floor. They are attached to the main superstructure which supports the weight of all the floors. However, the attachment points for each floor only support the weight of a floor and the necessary safety margin. The force of the top of the building coming down on an intact floor like a pile driver is enough to sever the attachment points of that floor. The pile driver has just added more mass to itself and it's velocity was not slowed enough to compensate so it has even more energy as it shears off floor after floor until the whole building is down.

    Why then isn't the superstructure still standing? Because this huge mass of I beams, cement, and other debris pushing outward in all directions has pushed, twisted, and squashed it in into numerous failure modes.
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  146. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    Interesting. So you concede that the Einsatzgruppen executed prisoners in reprisals. That's encouraging. Who were these prisoners? Were they soldiers or civilians or some mix? Were they limited in age? What number of Soviet people were the Einsatzgruppen happy to execute in response to a partisan attack?

    It does not matter, in a legal sense, who they were, since reprisal executions of hostages in response to illegal partisan activity were not against the Hague Convention in force at the time. Insofar as the execution of “children” goes, no doubt a lot of minors were shot. This is not shocking, since many so called “children” were actively engaged in partisan activity. We are not talking about toddlers or very small children, we are talking about adolescents. In any case, if the Germans were taken to task for the execution of so called “children”, why were the Allies never taken to task for the mass incineration of men, women and children in the horrendous area bombing campaigns, which DELIBERATELY, and with malice aforethought, targeted them? The answer is simple: the Allies won and the Axis lost, the victors write the (recently post hoc) history books and the vanquished are subject to egregious double standards of so called ” justice. “

    Read More
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  147. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    This is such a basic point that it's just astounding to me that anyone bothers to argue otherwise. The Twin Towers were subjected to a severe impact and a major fire. They weren't built to withstand something like that.

    And yes, they were built to withstand impact from a plane, but not a plane going at top speed and the expectation was that 50% it would be a plane nearly out of fuel and on its way to land to LaGuardia, Newark, or Kennedy.

    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2″ of structural steel (1/4″ plus 1/4″ thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2″ of steel plating – say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon

    It does not matter, in a legal sense, who they were, since reprisal executions of hostages in response to illegal partisan activity were not against the Hague Convention in force at the time.
     
    It does matter, because if the partisans seized were predominantly or entirely Jewish, predominantly or entirely non-military, and composed of a population including women, children, and the elderly, then it isn't a reprisal anymore.

    Insofar as the execution of “children” goes, no doubt a lot of minors were shot. This is not shocking, since many so called “children” were actively engaged in partisan activity. We are not talking about toddlers or very small children, we are talking about adolescents.
     
    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group's own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    In any case, if the Germans were taken to task for the execution of so called “children...”
     
    Don't change the topic.
    , @Anon
    And your qualifications to give opinions about this is based on what? A half-hour of internet research?
    , @Anon
    By the way, the sum total of physics training I've had is a year of physics in high school, some thirty years ago. But I do know enough to remember the core equation at the basis of physics, which is

    f = m * a

    where f=force, m=mass, and a=acceleration.

    So it absolutely freaking matter which body is in motion and which isn't when a collision happens.
    , @MarkinLA
    A body in motion - any body has kinetic energy equal to 1/2 times it's mass times it's velocity squared. 100 tons of an airplane traveling at 500 miles an hours is a lot of kinetic energy. This energy damages the supports by bending them, knocking holes in them, and this energy is converted to heat energy when it compresses the metal it contacts and when it compresses itself.

    If you knew about the armor piercing bullets you pretend to, you would know that they penetrate the steel by compressing it to the point that it becomes molten. The back part of the bullet is still moving forward and pushes the molten steel out of the way. This same conversion of kinetic energy to heat is going on when the aircraft slams into the major structural components of the building. Of course, with such a large cross-sectional area, the heat generated isn't enough to melt steel by itself but that heat is added to the heat generated by the burning jet fuel.

    It doesn't matter if the material penetrating the steel was made out of wood or tungsten as long as the projectile has the necessary energy to compress the steel to a molten state. It would just have to go extremely fast for a piece of wood to penetrate steel as compared to tungsten. Where the material would come into the discussion is that a denser material would have a smaller cross section and the pressure at the impact point would be much higher for the same mass. The idea that an airplane weighing 100 tons going 500 miles an hour should disintegrate at the side of the building without penetration, cartoon style, is something only somebody who has never taken any physics at any level could believe.
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  148. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2" of structural steel (1/4" plus 1/4" thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2" of steel plating - say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.

    It does not matter, in a legal sense, who they were, since reprisal executions of hostages in response to illegal partisan activity were not against the Hague Convention in force at the time.

    It does matter, because if the partisans seized were predominantly or entirely Jewish, predominantly or entirely non-military, and composed of a population including women, children, and the elderly, then it isn’t a reprisal anymore.

    Insofar as the execution of “children” goes, no doubt a lot of minors were shot. This is not shocking, since many so called “children” were actively engaged in partisan activity. We are not talking about toddlers or very small children, we are talking about adolescents.

    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group’s own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    In any case, if the Germans were taken to task for the execution of so called “children…”

    Don’t change the topic.

    Read More
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  149. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2" of structural steel (1/4" plus 1/4" thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2" of steel plating - say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.

    And your qualifications to give opinions about this is based on what? A half-hour of internet research?

    Read More
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  150. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2" of structural steel (1/4" plus 1/4" thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2" of steel plating - say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.

    By the way, the sum total of physics training I’ve had is a year of physics in high school, some thirty years ago. But I do know enough to remember the core equation at the basis of physics, which is

    f = m * a

    where f=force, m=mass, and a=acceleration.

    So it absolutely freaking matter which body is in motion and which isn’t when a collision happens.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You are right of course that it may matter whuch is in motion but you would have to get a figure for acceleration for the plane which was not apporeciably accelerating when it struck. Tentatively I would concoct a fantastically high figure for acceleration out of the rate of decdleration calculated from where the plane's centre of mass was at the moment it hit to where it was in one second or whatever it was after it hit and had stopped. But maybe kinetic eñergy is more to ths point. The formula KE= 1/2 mv^2 where v is velocity makes your point very well since the building had no kinetic energy and the plane, because its high velocity is squares, has a great deal. The steel tube upright members which were on the outside edge of the buidings to maximise lettable space provided what may be regarded as friction to slow down the aircraft and generate enormous heat.

    BTW if any of the truthers are still with us who scoffed at some relatively recent research and theorising which suggested the explosive qualities of aluminium at high temperature, at least in the presence of water, may have been responsible for some sound of explosion claimed to be heard by firemen, I invite them to consider some long obfuscated historical facts. First, there is no evidence that there is no evidence that the second explosion which hastened the sinking of the Lusitania was caused by a torpedo Second, there is strong evidence that it was caused by the explosion of aluminium powder which the ship was carrying (and maybe might have made the sinking justifiable if the Germans had known about it, which they obviously didn't).
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  151. @Skeptikal
    Darn it, I SAID . . .
    (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, **youth organizations connected to a political party*I)
    So what is your problem?
    Just read and quote the whole sentence, not a fragment, before you go off on a tear defending the Hitler Youth because they didn't steal land in Palestine. I didn't say that they did. I said that these groups had the fanaticism of youth.
    Jeez.

    imo Zionism was a far greater and obviously longer-lasting evil than National Socialism.

    I also consider knee-jerk comparisons to Hitler/Nazees where H & Nazees are the definition of evil to be childish, simplistic, and counterproductive.

    Employing such rhetoric does the fiend’s work for it.

    PS the zionists who infiltrated Germany, raised havoc in Palestine and drove out the legitimate owners of that place were not teenagers sowing their oats, they were and still are terrorists.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Yes, as is proved by the collision of a semi truck with a concrete wall. Since the semi-truck is in motion and the concrete wall is at rest, the semi-truck will simply obliterate the wall and pass through unscathed. Good grief! Have you ever seen what a mere collision with a bird in flight at cruising speed can do to the nose or fuselage of a 767? Do you seriously believe that the gigantic peripheral columns made of structural steel and designed to withstand hurricane winds would simply give way to a hollow aluminum tube? Why don't the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?
    , @Mulegino1
    The murder of over 400,000 human beings would have required enormous mass graves with over 40 times the surface area of those at Katyn. Where are these mass graves located? Only a fool could believe in these falsified "Einsatzgruppen Reports" with their grossly exaggerated claims.

    How were these mass executions carried out- with atomic bombs or area bombing of massed prisoners in fields? Do you realize the absolute impossibility of a few thousand Einsatzgruppen personnel herding or gathering 400,000 people like cattle and murdering them? What you describe is a logistical impossibility, more fit for a Gulliver's Travels like fantasy than for a realistic military operation.

    Marshal Von Manstein's attorney, Paget, made mincemeat of these utterly ridiculous claims in the trial of the Marshal. They are no more credible than the use of atomic bombs to kill Jews en masse (claimed by Justice Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg IMT), the "steam chamber" at Treblinka II or the "electrified floor" at Belzec. Those who believe this nonsense must have been victims of the so called "pedal driven brain bashing machine", also claimed at the IMT.
    , @Skeptikal
    "were not teenagers sowing their oats" ---this comes from you, not from me.
    Typical straw man type of argument.
    Or, in this case, oat boy
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  152. Mulegino1 says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    imo Zionism was a far greater and obviously longer-lasting evil than National Socialism.

    I also consider knee-jerk comparisons to Hitler/Nazees where H & Nazees are the definition of evil to be childish, simplistic, and counterproductive.

    Employing such rhetoric does the fiend's work for it.

    PS the zionists who infiltrated Germany, raised havoc in Palestine and drove out the legitimate owners of that place were not teenagers sowing their oats, they were and still are terrorists.

    Yes, as is proved by the collision of a semi truck with a concrete wall. Since the semi-truck is in motion and the concrete wall is at rest, the semi-truck will simply obliterate the wall and pass through unscathed. Good grief! Have you ever seen what a mere collision with a bird in flight at cruising speed can do to the nose or fuselage of a 767? Do you seriously believe that the gigantic peripheral columns made of structural steel and designed to withstand hurricane winds would simply give way to a hollow aluminum tube? Why don’t the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Because force requires both mass and acceleration.
    , @MarkinLA
    Why don’t the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?

    Take a look at reloading tables. Lighter bullets take more powder and have higher velocity but they lose power quicker. Even a solid aluminum bullet would require so much powder that it could not be put in a typical cartridge that a soldier could carry. In addition, after a few hundreds yards it would have lost so much energy that it would be useless in combat.
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  153. Mulegino1 says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    imo Zionism was a far greater and obviously longer-lasting evil than National Socialism.

    I also consider knee-jerk comparisons to Hitler/Nazees where H & Nazees are the definition of evil to be childish, simplistic, and counterproductive.

    Employing such rhetoric does the fiend's work for it.

    PS the zionists who infiltrated Germany, raised havoc in Palestine and drove out the legitimate owners of that place were not teenagers sowing their oats, they were and still are terrorists.

    The murder of over 400,000 human beings would have required enormous mass graves with over 40 times the surface area of those at Katyn. Where are these mass graves located? Only a fool could believe in these falsified “Einsatzgruppen Reports” with their grossly exaggerated claims.

    How were these mass executions carried out- with atomic bombs or area bombing of massed prisoners in fields? Do you realize the absolute impossibility of a few thousand Einsatzgruppen personnel herding or gathering 400,000 people like cattle and murdering them? What you describe is a logistical impossibility, more fit for a Gulliver’s Travels like fantasy than for a realistic military operation.

    Marshal Von Manstein’s attorney, Paget, made mincemeat of these utterly ridiculous claims in the trial of the Marshal. They are no more credible than the use of atomic bombs to kill Jews en masse (claimed by Justice Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg IMT), the “steam chamber” at Treblinka II or the “electrified floor” at Belzec. Those who believe this nonsense must have been victims of the so called “pedal driven brain bashing machine”, also claimed at the IMT.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Gee, I was asking about a single Lithuanian town. I figured we could resolve that one and move on from there.

    Or you could just admit that you think that it was fine for the Nazis to shoot a whole village of innocent Jewish people and cut out the middle man. After all, you do have Codreanu for your Disqus avatar.

    Your choice.
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    Are you referring to the estimate made by Reynouard and Kollerstrom, based on the actual Einsatzgruppen reports and not the obviously exaggerated summaries sent to Berlin? (The 400K number.)

    Regardless, it is clear from these reports that these shootings (justifiable or not) always took place in the context of anti-partisan actions and specific acts against German forces. I.e., they were driven by the exigencies of war on the eastern front, and NOT some master "extermination plan".
    , @Skeptikal
    The Einsatzgruppen went from village to village.
    Not necessary to "herd" thousands of people
    Just a few hundred at a time. 'I don't think you really know much about this, in your eagerness to defend Einsatzgruppen.
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  154. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    Yes, as is proved by the collision of a semi truck with a concrete wall. Since the semi-truck is in motion and the concrete wall is at rest, the semi-truck will simply obliterate the wall and pass through unscathed. Good grief! Have you ever seen what a mere collision with a bird in flight at cruising speed can do to the nose or fuselage of a 767? Do you seriously believe that the gigantic peripheral columns made of structural steel and designed to withstand hurricane winds would simply give way to a hollow aluminum tube? Why don't the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?

    Because force requires both mass and acceleration.

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Yes. And? There is an equal- and opposite- reaction. Which is why, when a semi truck crashes into a concrete wall at 70 mph, it does not effortlessly break the wall and pass through it. Generally, the truck loses, even though the wall is at rest. And a light, mostly hollow 767 fuselage is no semi-truck.
    , @annamaria
    What you wrote has no sense in the context of the discussion. Except if you want to litter the Unz forum with debris.
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  155. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    The murder of over 400,000 human beings would have required enormous mass graves with over 40 times the surface area of those at Katyn. Where are these mass graves located? Only a fool could believe in these falsified "Einsatzgruppen Reports" with their grossly exaggerated claims.

    How were these mass executions carried out- with atomic bombs or area bombing of massed prisoners in fields? Do you realize the absolute impossibility of a few thousand Einsatzgruppen personnel herding or gathering 400,000 people like cattle and murdering them? What you describe is a logistical impossibility, more fit for a Gulliver's Travels like fantasy than for a realistic military operation.

    Marshal Von Manstein's attorney, Paget, made mincemeat of these utterly ridiculous claims in the trial of the Marshal. They are no more credible than the use of atomic bombs to kill Jews en masse (claimed by Justice Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg IMT), the "steam chamber" at Treblinka II or the "electrified floor" at Belzec. Those who believe this nonsense must have been victims of the so called "pedal driven brain bashing machine", also claimed at the IMT.

    Gee, I was asking about a single Lithuanian town. I figured we could resolve that one and move on from there.

    Or you could just admit that you think that it was fine for the Nazis to shoot a whole village of innocent Jewish people and cut out the middle man. After all, you do have Codreanu for your Disqus avatar.

    Your choice.

    Read More
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  156. @Mulegino1
    The murder of over 400,000 human beings would have required enormous mass graves with over 40 times the surface area of those at Katyn. Where are these mass graves located? Only a fool could believe in these falsified "Einsatzgruppen Reports" with their grossly exaggerated claims.

    How were these mass executions carried out- with atomic bombs or area bombing of massed prisoners in fields? Do you realize the absolute impossibility of a few thousand Einsatzgruppen personnel herding or gathering 400,000 people like cattle and murdering them? What you describe is a logistical impossibility, more fit for a Gulliver's Travels like fantasy than for a realistic military operation.

    Marshal Von Manstein's attorney, Paget, made mincemeat of these utterly ridiculous claims in the trial of the Marshal. They are no more credible than the use of atomic bombs to kill Jews en masse (claimed by Justice Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg IMT), the "steam chamber" at Treblinka II or the "electrified floor" at Belzec. Those who believe this nonsense must have been victims of the so called "pedal driven brain bashing machine", also claimed at the IMT.

    Are you referring to the estimate made by Reynouard and Kollerstrom, based on the actual Einsatzgruppen reports and not the obviously exaggerated summaries sent to Berlin? (The 400K number.)

    Regardless, it is clear from these reports that these shootings (justifiable or not) always took place in the context of anti-partisan actions and specific acts against German forces. I.e., they were driven by the exigencies of war on the eastern front, and NOT some master “extermination plan”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Do you have any idea of the logistical impossibility of a few thousand troops armed mainly with small arms executing 400000 people over the period of a few days? Not even the deadliest battles of the First World War- which involved massed troop formations of tens of thousands of men charging fortified trenches defended by light machine guns- over open ground- accounted for such an enormous amount of casualties in such a short time. Yet we are led to believe that a few thousand Einsatzgruppen troops armed with small arms, operating over an area as big as the US west of the Rockies, were able to achieve these miracles of homicide simply because- well it was the "Holocaust!"

    Just answer these questions:

    Where were the exact places of execution?

    How were the alleged victims transported to the areas of execution? The Wehrmacht was 80% horse driven. It is hard to envision the Germans diverting precious trucks for this purpose with a war raging just to the east.

    Where are the bodies buried?

    If you claim that the bodies were originally buried, then dug up and cremated on open air pyres, then state specific locations and describe the methods, including the massive excavations and disposal of earth which would have been necessary to bury and dispose of so many bodies- not to mention the massive amounts of dried, cured, firewood necessary for such a thing.

    , @Anon
    Really? The Jäger report lists more than 100 mass shootings. You want to tell me there were 100+ partisan incidents in Lithuania in six months time with virtually no Soviet presence and a pro-Nazi population?
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    Correction: Verbeke, not Kollerstrom.
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  157. Mulegino1 says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Are you referring to the estimate made by Reynouard and Kollerstrom, based on the actual Einsatzgruppen reports and not the obviously exaggerated summaries sent to Berlin? (The 400K number.)

    Regardless, it is clear from these reports that these shootings (justifiable or not) always took place in the context of anti-partisan actions and specific acts against German forces. I.e., they were driven by the exigencies of war on the eastern front, and NOT some master "extermination plan".

    Do you have any idea of the logistical impossibility of a few thousand troops armed mainly with small arms executing 400000 people over the period of a few days? Not even the deadliest battles of the First World War- which involved massed troop formations of tens of thousands of men charging fortified trenches defended by light machine guns- over open ground- accounted for such an enormous amount of casualties in such a short time. Yet we are led to believe that a few thousand Einsatzgruppen troops armed with small arms, operating over an area as big as the US west of the Rockies, were able to achieve these miracles of homicide simply because- well it was the “Holocaust!”

    Just answer these questions:

    Where were the exact places of execution?

    How were the alleged victims transported to the areas of execution? The Wehrmacht was 80% horse driven. It is hard to envision the Germans diverting precious trucks for this purpose with a war raging just to the east.

    Where are the bodies buried?

    If you claim that the bodies were originally buried, then dug up and cremated on open air pyres, then state specific locations and describe the methods, including the massive excavations and disposal of earth which would have been necessary to bury and dispose of so many bodies- not to mention the massive amounts of dried, cured, firewood necessary for such a thing.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Agreed, the official numbers are clearly fantastical, but there is little doubt that mass shootings took place. What do you make of Reynouard's work on this?

    https://archive.org/details/VincentReynouardLesEinsatzgruppenPartie4JugesEtHistoriensPrisEnFlagrantDelitDeMensonges
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    And please, I greatly admire your posts here and elsewhere, but no one is claiming 400K were killed in a matter of days. That number is for the entire period of operation. This does not help legitimate revisionism.
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  158. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    Because force requires both mass and acceleration.

    Yes. And? There is an equal- and opposite- reaction. Which is why, when a semi truck crashes into a concrete wall at 70 mph, it does not effortlessly break the wall and pass through it. Generally, the truck loses, even though the wall is at rest. And a light, mostly hollow 767 fuselage is no semi-truck.

    Read More
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  159. Skeptikal says:
    @Anon
    This is such a basic point that it's just astounding to me that anyone bothers to argue otherwise. The Twin Towers were subjected to a severe impact and a major fire. They weren't built to withstand something like that.

    And yes, they were built to withstand impact from a plane, but not a plane going at top speed and the expectation was that 50% it would be a plane nearly out of fuel and on its way to land to LaGuardia, Newark, or Kennedy.

    That is BS.
    Babbling.

    Read More
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  160. Skeptikal says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    imo Zionism was a far greater and obviously longer-lasting evil than National Socialism.

    I also consider knee-jerk comparisons to Hitler/Nazees where H & Nazees are the definition of evil to be childish, simplistic, and counterproductive.

    Employing such rhetoric does the fiend's work for it.

    PS the zionists who infiltrated Germany, raised havoc in Palestine and drove out the legitimate owners of that place were not teenagers sowing their oats, they were and still are terrorists.

    “were not teenagers sowing their oats” —this comes from you, not from me.
    Typical straw man type of argument.
    Or, in this case, oat boy

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  161. Skeptikal says:
    @Mulegino1
    The murder of over 400,000 human beings would have required enormous mass graves with over 40 times the surface area of those at Katyn. Where are these mass graves located? Only a fool could believe in these falsified "Einsatzgruppen Reports" with their grossly exaggerated claims.

    How were these mass executions carried out- with atomic bombs or area bombing of massed prisoners in fields? Do you realize the absolute impossibility of a few thousand Einsatzgruppen personnel herding or gathering 400,000 people like cattle and murdering them? What you describe is a logistical impossibility, more fit for a Gulliver's Travels like fantasy than for a realistic military operation.

    Marshal Von Manstein's attorney, Paget, made mincemeat of these utterly ridiculous claims in the trial of the Marshal. They are no more credible than the use of atomic bombs to kill Jews en masse (claimed by Justice Robert Jackson at the Nuremberg IMT), the "steam chamber" at Treblinka II or the "electrified floor" at Belzec. Those who believe this nonsense must have been victims of the so called "pedal driven brain bashing machine", also claimed at the IMT.

    The Einsatzgruppen went from village to village.
    Not necessary to “herd” thousands of people
    Just a few hundred at a time. ‘I don’t think you really know much about this, in your eagerness to defend Einsatzgruppen.

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  162. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Are you referring to the estimate made by Reynouard and Kollerstrom, based on the actual Einsatzgruppen reports and not the obviously exaggerated summaries sent to Berlin? (The 400K number.)

    Regardless, it is clear from these reports that these shootings (justifiable or not) always took place in the context of anti-partisan actions and specific acts against German forces. I.e., they were driven by the exigencies of war on the eastern front, and NOT some master "extermination plan".

    Really? The Jäger report lists more than 100 mass shootings. You want to tell me there were 100+ partisan incidents in Lithuania in six months time with virtually no Soviet presence and a pro-Nazi population?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Jaeger report is of dubious validity.

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=8510
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  163. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Therefore the official account should be uncritically accepted without questioning?

    Strawman

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  164. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Far less than the 2M commonly cited.

    I don’t think anyone is claiming two million. Also, I don’t think a number as low as 400k is taking into account anything past December 1941

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Hilberg does. At any rate the actual official number tends to be quite fluid, whatever relative component is needed to get to the magical total number of 6M.
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  165. @Anon
    Really? The Jäger report lists more than 100 mass shootings. You want to tell me there were 100+ partisan incidents in Lithuania in six months time with virtually no Soviet presence and a pro-Nazi population?

    The Jaeger report is of dubious validity.

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=8510

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Don't waste my time with CODOH links. Go big or go home
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  166. @Mulegino1
    Do you have any idea of the logistical impossibility of a few thousand troops armed mainly with small arms executing 400000 people over the period of a few days? Not even the deadliest battles of the First World War- which involved massed troop formations of tens of thousands of men charging fortified trenches defended by light machine guns- over open ground- accounted for such an enormous amount of casualties in such a short time. Yet we are led to believe that a few thousand Einsatzgruppen troops armed with small arms, operating over an area as big as the US west of the Rockies, were able to achieve these miracles of homicide simply because- well it was the "Holocaust!"

    Just answer these questions:

    Where were the exact places of execution?

    How were the alleged victims transported to the areas of execution? The Wehrmacht was 80% horse driven. It is hard to envision the Germans diverting precious trucks for this purpose with a war raging just to the east.

    Where are the bodies buried?

    If you claim that the bodies were originally buried, then dug up and cremated on open air pyres, then state specific locations and describe the methods, including the massive excavations and disposal of earth which would have been necessary to bury and dispose of so many bodies- not to mention the massive amounts of dried, cured, firewood necessary for such a thing.

    Agreed, the official numbers are clearly fantastical, but there is little doubt that mass shootings took place. What do you make of Reynouard’s work on this?

    https://archive.org/details/VincentReynouardLesEinsatzgruppenPartie4JugesEtHistoriensPrisEnFlagrantDelitDeMensonges

    Read More
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  167. @Mulegino1
    Do you have any idea of the logistical impossibility of a few thousand troops armed mainly with small arms executing 400000 people over the period of a few days? Not even the deadliest battles of the First World War- which involved massed troop formations of tens of thousands of men charging fortified trenches defended by light machine guns- over open ground- accounted for such an enormous amount of casualties in such a short time. Yet we are led to believe that a few thousand Einsatzgruppen troops armed with small arms, operating over an area as big as the US west of the Rockies, were able to achieve these miracles of homicide simply because- well it was the "Holocaust!"

    Just answer these questions:

    Where were the exact places of execution?

    How were the alleged victims transported to the areas of execution? The Wehrmacht was 80% horse driven. It is hard to envision the Germans diverting precious trucks for this purpose with a war raging just to the east.

    Where are the bodies buried?

    If you claim that the bodies were originally buried, then dug up and cremated on open air pyres, then state specific locations and describe the methods, including the massive excavations and disposal of earth which would have been necessary to bury and dispose of so many bodies- not to mention the massive amounts of dried, cured, firewood necessary for such a thing.

    And please, I greatly admire your posts here and elsewhere, but no one is claiming 400K were killed in a matter of days. That number is for the entire period of operation. This does not help legitimate revisionism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Sorry about that, I was replying to Anon who listed the figures wrong. He listed 446,600 or so women and 1,200 children or something like that. He may have meant to write 446 women which would be tenable. The anti-partisan warfare was vicious, but the Germans never behaved any worse- and considerably better- than the Soviets and the western Allies when it came to the treatment of the civilian population.
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  168. @Anon
    I don't think anyone is claiming two million. Also, I don't think a number as low as 400k is taking into account anything past December 1941

    Hilberg does. At any rate the actual official number tends to be quite fluid, whatever relative component is needed to get to the magical total number of 6M.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    There is no doubt that the war on the Eastern Front became increasingly brutal and that the Axis forces committed excesses and a certain number of atrocities. However- are there any as deliberately vicious -
    (discounting the excesses of the Red Army) to compare with those committed by, say, the French Moroccan troops under the Free French General Juin who were given free reign to rape the women in the villages surrounding Monte Cassino? According to most accounts, the western Allied occupiers behaved much worse than the soldiers of the Wehrmacht in France, Italy, Belgium, etc.
    , @Anon
    No, Hilberg claims half that amount.
    , @Skeptikal
    Yes, 2 million of the 4 million total are thought to have been the victims of Einsatztkommandos operating in occupied countries.
    This figure is used by Louis Snyder, Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, which I think is considered a pretty good source. He says, "These formations [Einsatzgruppen, Einsatzkommandos, Einsatztruppen] were given the task of supervising the Final Solution of the Jewish problem by extermination. Together with other elements of hte Security Police, they were responsible for the deaths of 2 million of the estimated 6 million Jews killed."

    However he also says that they were "charged with destroying Communists, partisans, saboteurs, and Jews on the eastern front."

    They also participated in wiping out whole villages.
    Wikipedia has this:
    "Under the direction of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler and the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, the Einsatzgruppen operated in territories occupied by the German armed forces following the invasion of Poland in September 1939 and Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union) launched from occupied Poland in June 1941. The Einsatzgruppen worked hand-in-hand with the Orpo Police Battalions on the Eastern Front to carry out operations ranging from the murder of a few people to operations which lasted over two or more days, such as the massacre at Babi Yar with 33,771 Jews killed in two days, and the Rumbula massacre (with about 25,000 killed in two days of shooting). As ordered by Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, the Wehrmacht cooperated with the Einsatzgruppen and provided logistical support for their operations. Historian Raul Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen and related auxiliary troops killed more than two million people, including 1.3 million Jews. The total number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust is estimated at 5.5 to 6 million people."

    With such numbers it wouldn't take long to add up to 400,000.
    Not to forget, the Einsatzgruppen were active before the extermination camps were up and running. The primary locus for Einsatzgruppen activities were Poland and Ukraine (Babi Yar was the extermiantion of the ca. 37,000 Jews of Kiev). Ukraine was to be cleared of population except for remaining slave labor, so a lot of Ukrainians were victims of the Einsatzkommandos.

    In a way, it is no wonder the Ukrainians of today seem to be sort of demented. It is really inconceivable what the parents and families of current adults experienced in their lives. As we know, trauma is not banished with death but lives on in various forms in the children of the traumatized.
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  169. @Beefcake the Mighty
    Are you referring to the estimate made by Reynouard and Kollerstrom, based on the actual Einsatzgruppen reports and not the obviously exaggerated summaries sent to Berlin? (The 400K number.)

    Regardless, it is clear from these reports that these shootings (justifiable or not) always took place in the context of anti-partisan actions and specific acts against German forces. I.e., they were driven by the exigencies of war on the eastern front, and NOT some master "extermination plan".

    Correction: Verbeke, not Kollerstrom.

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  170. Mulegino1 says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    And please, I greatly admire your posts here and elsewhere, but no one is claiming 400K were killed in a matter of days. That number is for the entire period of operation. This does not help legitimate revisionism.

    Sorry about that, I was replying to Anon who listed the figures wrong. He listed 446,600 or so women and 1,200 children or something like that. He may have meant to write 446 women which would be tenable. The anti-partisan warfare was vicious, but the Germans never behaved any worse- and considerably better- than the Soviets and the western Allies when it came to the treatment of the civilian population.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    No worries, I sort of assumed you were replying to his typo.

    What you say here is to me the main point: many German actions were undoubtedly war crimes, but they took place in the context of a war they neither wanted nor were prepared to wage. What happened to the Jews in WW2 is comparable to what happened to the Armenians in WW1: a great national tragedy, but hardly "heavens darkening" stuff non-Jews must eternally atone for. (One difference of course being, there were no elite Armenians in the halls of power in the West agitating for war, ordinary Jews paid a huge price for these mens' actions.)
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  171. @Mulegino1
    Sorry about that, I was replying to Anon who listed the figures wrong. He listed 446,600 or so women and 1,200 children or something like that. He may have meant to write 446 women which would be tenable. The anti-partisan warfare was vicious, but the Germans never behaved any worse- and considerably better- than the Soviets and the western Allies when it came to the treatment of the civilian population.

    No worries, I sort of assumed you were replying to his typo.

    What you say here is to me the main point: many German actions were undoubtedly war crimes, but they took place in the context of a war they neither wanted nor were prepared to wage. What happened to the Jews in WW2 is comparable to what happened to the Armenians in WW1: a great national tragedy, but hardly “heavens darkening” stuff non-Jews must eternally atone for. (One difference of course being, there were no elite Armenians in the halls of power in the West agitating for war, ordinary Jews paid a huge price for these mens’ actions.)

    Read More
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  172. Mulegino1 says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Hilberg does. At any rate the actual official number tends to be quite fluid, whatever relative component is needed to get to the magical total number of 6M.

    There is no doubt that the war on the Eastern Front became increasingly brutal and that the Axis forces committed excesses and a certain number of atrocities. However- are there any as deliberately vicious -
    (discounting the excesses of the Red Army) to compare with those committed by, say, the French Moroccan troops under the Free French General Juin who were given free reign to rape the women in the villages surrounding Monte Cassino? According to most accounts, the western Allied occupiers behaved much worse than the soldiers of the Wehrmacht in France, Italy, Belgium, etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    To repeat, with correction:

    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466 men, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group’s own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    Once we're done with this town, we can go to the next. We can do all 100 if you like and then move onto Latvia.

    Or you can just admit that it's ok with you that the Nazis killed innocent Jews. It's you with Codreanu as your Disqus avatar.

    Your call.
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  173. It should also be said: the Anglo-American treatment of non-combatants was far, far worse than anything the Germans could realistically be accused of, and unlike the Soviets they had absolutely no cause for vengefulness nor ameliorating context. The U.K. and US were the true villains of the war.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    They were indeed. Germany was demonized for responding forcefully to Polish aggression, bellicosity and intransigence - which included total mobilization of the Polish armed forces before the Germans mobilized their own, as well as outright calls for war and the Polish occupation of Berlin. In response, England and France declared war on Germany for its war with (not on) Poland, yet completely ignored the Soviet invasion of Poland which occurred a few weeks later (not to mention the subsequent Soviet invasion of Finland, and the forced annexation of the Baltic states).

    The Anglo-Americans were never called to account for invading and wrecking most of Western Europe and killing (and raping and looting) many more innocent civilians in the process than the Germans were ever accused of. But that was "liberation."
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  174. Avery says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    It's time for your meds.

    {It’s time for your meds.}

    Another highly original diagnosis by our old friend Dr. Bovine, M.D.
    It’s time for you to go back into the barn and to continue chewing your daily allotment of hay.

    Moo.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Some people just won't accept sound medical advice, apparently.
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  175. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Jaeger report is of dubious validity.

    https://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=8510

    Don’t waste my time with CODOH links. Go big or go home

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    ok
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  176. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Hilberg does. At any rate the actual official number tends to be quite fluid, whatever relative component is needed to get to the magical total number of 6M.

    No, Hilberg claims half that amount.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    No, I believe he does say 2M. Perhaps you are nitpicking over the Einzatgruppen proper or some other German police group?
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  177. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    There is no doubt that the war on the Eastern Front became increasingly brutal and that the Axis forces committed excesses and a certain number of atrocities. However- are there any as deliberately vicious -
    (discounting the excesses of the Red Army) to compare with those committed by, say, the French Moroccan troops under the Free French General Juin who were given free reign to rape the women in the villages surrounding Monte Cassino? According to most accounts, the western Allied occupiers behaved much worse than the soldiers of the Wehrmacht in France, Italy, Belgium, etc.

    To repeat, with correction:

    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466 men, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group’s own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    Once we’re done with this town, we can go to the next. We can do all 100 if you like and then move onto Latvia.

    Or you can just admit that it’s ok with you that the Nazis killed innocent Jews. It’s you with Codreanu as your Disqus avatar.

    Your call.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    If you had posted correct numbers in the first place, I would indeed have conceded that sporadic reprisal massacres of this magnitude did take place. Again, context is of extreme importance.
    There was a horrendous struggle going on in the east and the partisans started it with their illegal atrocities against the Axis troops, so reprisals were taken against the civilian population. Women and adolescents were also involved in partisan activity, and it is most likely that most males of military age were already at the front, so the remaining civilian population in the towns would consist of women and children, including minors. There is also no question that Jews supported such activity, just as they supported the Bolshevik tyranny which their coreligionists imposed upon the people of these regions, which led to the spontaneous "pogroms" in the Baltic countries during the German advance. The Germans did not conduct, nor in most cases, even encourage such actions; their only crime was standing aside and letting them take place.

    We know with absolute certitude that the Soviets committed far worse atrocities than anything realistically imputed to the Axis (in the European theater). And we also know that it was the British- and not the Germans- who began the policy of deliberately targeting the civilian population of Europe. The western Allies killed far more French and Italian civilians with their aerial bombing; they committed more rapes, stole and looted far more. Where is the moral outrage at these "holocausts"?

    The behavior of German troops in the occupied France was, from all accounts, quite exemplary, especially compared to that of their Allied opponents.

    Of course, when the discipline of history is fraught with such egregious double standards and duplicity, it becomes useless.

    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    A sufficient response is that ugly happen in war and the eastern front was particularly ugly. Even if the account of this event is accurate, I cannot understand why it is more noteworthy than the TENS of thousands of civilians killed by the Americans (safely high above the ground) at places like Dresden or Nagasaki.

    But your proposal is simply pointless, because you provide absolutely no context. As Reynouard and Verbeke these actions, however excessive, took place in the course of anti-partisan activities, which were accordingly noted. For example, here

    http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/situationreport88.html

    we see that acts were investigated and individuals cleared, including asylum inmates who posed a general threat to public health. (There was a war going on, after all.). This hardly sounds like a grand extermination plan, although it is undoubtedly unpleasant stuff (as war always is).

    Raseinai is merely noted in that link, so I cannot comment there, but in generally you propose a rather silly game.
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  178. @Avery
    {It’s time for your meds.}

    Another highly original diagnosis by our old friend Dr. Bovine, M.D.
    It's time for you to go back into the barn and to continue chewing your daily allotment of hay.

    Moo.

    Some people just won’t accept sound medical advice, apparently.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Some people.....}

    It would be highly irregular for people to take any kind of advice from a ruminant such as you, Dr. Bovine, M.D.
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  179. Avery says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Some people just won't accept sound medical advice, apparently.

    {Some people…..}

    It would be highly irregular for people to take any kind of advice from a ruminant such as you, Dr. Bovine, M.D.

    Read More
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  180. @MEexpert

    Okay myself, a Michigan born and raised and from a german standpoint : redneck hillbilly who spent forty years in Germany, married three German women , a “von”, a medical doctor, and a teacher (Gymnasium Lehrerin now retired) ,
     
    Couldn't hold to your women.

    It is because of all that "FAKE JAZZ."

    ” Couldn’t hold your women”

    ” It is because of all that FAKE JAZZ”

    HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA

    How witty and original. You missed your calling as a stand up comic

    I held on to the last one and she is the best of all , so things worked out just right.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.

    Read More
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  181. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    To repeat, with correction:

    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466 men, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group’s own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    Once we're done with this town, we can go to the next. We can do all 100 if you like and then move onto Latvia.

    Or you can just admit that it's ok with you that the Nazis killed innocent Jews. It's you with Codreanu as your Disqus avatar.

    Your call.

    If you had posted correct numbers in the first place, I would indeed have conceded that sporadic reprisal massacres of this magnitude did take place. Again, context is of extreme importance.
    There was a horrendous struggle going on in the east and the partisans started it with their illegal atrocities against the Axis troops, so reprisals were taken against the civilian population. Women and adolescents were also involved in partisan activity, and it is most likely that most males of military age were already at the front, so the remaining civilian population in the towns would consist of women and children, including minors. There is also no question that Jews supported such activity, just as they supported the Bolshevik tyranny which their coreligionists imposed upon the people of these regions, which led to the spontaneous “pogroms” in the Baltic countries during the German advance. The Germans did not conduct, nor in most cases, even encourage such actions; their only crime was standing aside and letting them take place.

    We know with absolute certitude that the Soviets committed far worse atrocities than anything realistically imputed to the Axis (in the European theater). And we also know that it was the British- and not the Germans- who began the policy of deliberately targeting the civilian population of Europe. The western Allies killed far more French and Italian civilians with their aerial bombing; they committed more rapes, stole and looted far more. Where is the moral outrage at these “holocausts”?

    The behavior of German troops in the occupied France was, from all accounts, quite exemplary, especially compared to that of their Allied opponents.

    Of course, when the discipline of history is fraught with such egregious double standards and duplicity, it becomes useless.

    Read More
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  182. Mulegino1 says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    It should also be said: the Anglo-American treatment of non-combatants was far, far worse than anything the Germans could realistically be accused of, and unlike the Soviets they had absolutely no cause for vengefulness nor ameliorating context. The U.K. and US were the true villains of the war.

    They were indeed. Germany was demonized for responding forcefully to Polish aggression, bellicosity and intransigence – which included total mobilization of the Polish armed forces before the Germans mobilized their own, as well as outright calls for war and the Polish occupation of Berlin. In response, England and France declared war on Germany for its war with (not on) Poland, yet completely ignored the Soviet invasion of Poland which occurred a few weeks later (not to mention the subsequent Soviet invasion of Finland, and the forced annexation of the Baltic states).

    The Anglo-Americans were never called to account for invading and wrecking most of Western Europe and killing (and raping and looting) many more innocent civilians in the process than the Germans were ever accused of. But that was “liberation.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    I'm curious to know why you can't seem to stay on topic. I'm talking about one town. You claim that this was a reprisal. OK, great: Tell me what the specific partisan activity was that caused this to occur. When responding, bear in mind that this event occurred a scare three months into Barbarossa, that the Red Army had overwhelmingly fled in the face of the invasion, and that the native population was overwhelmingly pro-German.

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they're Jews, Mr. "I have Codreanu as my avatar." The choice remains yours.

    Thanks in advance.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " and (raping) and looting"

    You are crazy , and talking shit.

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was "raping" of innocent women in war zones.

    No denying there were such rare and severely punished incidents, but such as wrought upon the civilian female population of Germany by the Russians : Did not happen.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet and pro Jazz musician.
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  183. dcite says:
    @MarkinLA
    There is plenty of material ejected sideways as the building comes down. Maybe you really didn't look too hard at the video. Of course, most of it comes straight down - that is what gravity does. It only ejects sideways because it hits something hard and bounces which imparts a spin.

    Maybe you really didn’t look too hard at the video.

    OK. I’ll take a harder look-see. I guess we have to trust nobody did a C.D. Jackson on it. Nevertheless, is amazing in these Change-the-Game disaster events with political implications, that things fall-in-place so well. They happen after breakfast or lunch, and yet full bios of the perps are available for the evening news; passports drop like gentle rain from blazing infernos above, blessing those that find with such quick solutions to what could have been an enigma wrapped in a mystery.
    Several of the “hijackers” were truly shocked (not “shocked! shocked!”) by their notoriety, as they were still alive and well in Saudi Arabia and they sued the FBI. One young man could not fly at all and had lost his passport in Colorado.
    I prefer Instant Karma to Imagine but in another observation, Lennon was spot on: mostly insane people run the world. The most successful just hide it better than Ms. Debbie W-S.

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  184. @Anon
    To repeat, with correction:

    So between August 18 and 22, 1941, Einsatzgruppe A conducted operations in Raseiniai and according to their own records, they killed 466 men, 440 women, and 1,020 children. This is from the group’s own report. You would need to explain why the ratio of men to women is pretty much 1 and why the ratio of children to parents is closer to 2:1, which would be the average number of children.

    Once we're done with this town, we can go to the next. We can do all 100 if you like and then move onto Latvia.

    Or you can just admit that it's ok with you that the Nazis killed innocent Jews. It's you with Codreanu as your Disqus avatar.

    Your call.

    A sufficient response is that ugly happen in war and the eastern front was particularly ugly. Even if the account of this event is accurate, I cannot understand why it is more noteworthy than the TENS of thousands of civilians killed by the Americans (safely high above the ground) at places like Dresden or Nagasaki.

    But your proposal is simply pointless, because you provide absolutely no context. As Reynouard and Verbeke these actions, however excessive, took place in the course of anti-partisan activities, which were accordingly noted. For example, here

    http://www.holocaustresearchproject.org/einsatz/situationreport88.html

    we see that acts were investigated and individuals cleared, including asylum inmates who posed a general threat to public health. (There was a war going on, after all.). This hardly sounds like a grand extermination plan, although it is undoubtedly unpleasant stuff (as war always is).

    Raseinai is merely noted in that link, so I cannot comment there, but in generally you propose a rather silly game.

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  185. @Anon
    Don't waste my time with CODOH links. Go big or go home

    ok

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  186. @Anon
    No, Hilberg claims half that amount.

    No, I believe he does say 2M. Perhaps you are nitpicking over the Einzatgruppen proper or some other German police group?

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    • Replies: @Anon
    Turns out we're both wrong. Hilberg puts open air shootings in the USSR by all perpetrators at 1.3 million.
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  187. dcite says:
    @Sparkon

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that?
     
    https://truthandshadows.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/wtc-1-cropped.jpg

    Yes, I do not believe it.

    In the photo, the top 30-some floors of the south tower are still intact, but they have disassociated themselves from the rest of the building, and have been rotated in relationship to it.

    For this to happen, the building's central core must have been severed, and some additional kicker force applied to it above the break, so that the central core remaining in the top portion is out of alignment with the central core in the remainder of the structure.

    It is said that each of the towers weighed 500,000 tons, while a fully fueled 767-200's max gross take-off weight was 157 tons.

    Because the WTC towers' construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    The method of construction makes it difficult to calculate the weight of that ~30-floor segment of WTC 2, except to say it is about 25% of the building's height, and must have weighed more than 50,000 but less than 125,000 tons.

    Therefore, some very powerful force had to be applied to the top portion of the building seen tilting over in the photograph to get the structure into that position, and in the absence of some counter-force to stop it, the rotation should have continued.

    Do you think that the 157 ton airplane -- even at the alleged 500 mph -- had enough energy to sever the building's central core, and provide the rotational force to top 30 floors, after using a lot of energy to slice through the building's cage-like steel box column exterior?

    I don't think the airplane could do that.

    It is certainly possible that powerful charges could sever the central core of the twin towers in as many places as desired, with additional kicker charges to nudge these sections aside so that the entire structure falls into its own footprint, but only a relatively slight displacement of the central core would be necessary to ensure that result, while the photo depicts a much more radical displacement of the building's entire top, which would have required a much more powerful -- but entirely unnecessary -- charge.

    Of course it is conceivable that these images are fake, generated with CGI. Certainly, the airplane videos must be.

    Yes, it is impossible for a building that size to be totally dustified in a few minutes by one or two planes. Totally nonsense. The true perps of this event screwed up big-time. Only the treasonous MSM saved their hides, as it continues to do. An employee of 20 years in the building, Wm. Rodriguez, heard explosions before the planes hit. He was interviewed for hours by the commission “studying” the event, and his testimony did not appear in the final report. Same sort of thing as happened with the Warren Commission. They always use the same M.O. with varying degrees of success depending on the media and the courage and determination of the true investigators.
    Anyone who dismisses many years of serious research and warranted questions as “conspiracy theory” immediately loses any credibility. “Conspiracy theory” was a term invented by the CIA after the JFK assassination in response to questioning the absurd Warren Commission headed by, Allen Dulles, an expert in psychological warfare and sworn enemy of the man whose murder he was supposed to be investigating. If someone is satisfied with the conclusions of Official Government Reports, I wouldn’t trust them to investigator the death of my cat. And the conspiracy “theorists” (read facts) are the crazy ones? The media has made us think stupidly and insanely with huge holes in the final product, assuming we all have holes in our heads. I think it was who Orwell who said the lies of the media would be mostly lies of omission. How very prescient.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    It is interesting that Allen Dulles legacy is his subversive and considerable anti-democratic and pro-fascism influence which, in the long run, has profoundly hurt the US. It does make some minor justice to the legacy of Dulles that Imran Awan was arrested at the Dulles airport. The history of ziocon influence on the US policies is inseparable from the history of Dulles' CIA. The incompetence of the CIA is traced to Dulles as well because of his cult unaccountability.
    https://theintercept.com/2015/11/02/the-deepest-state-the-safari-club-allen-dulles-and-the-devils-chessboard/
    Dulles' dictum, “Democracy only works if the so-called intelligent people make it work. You can’t sit back and let democracy run itself,” has been taken in earnest by the US deciders -- who did not "sit" indeed. As a result, we have a pre-nuclear-war situation, the devastating rule of banksters and war-profiteers, and the voiceless US citizenry (see single-payer bill killed in California by the Democrats). The official reports on the JFK murder and on the 9/11 "event" have too many holes to trust the thoroughly corrupt and incompetent puppets in the US Congress.
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  188. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    They were indeed. Germany was demonized for responding forcefully to Polish aggression, bellicosity and intransigence - which included total mobilization of the Polish armed forces before the Germans mobilized their own, as well as outright calls for war and the Polish occupation of Berlin. In response, England and France declared war on Germany for its war with (not on) Poland, yet completely ignored the Soviet invasion of Poland which occurred a few weeks later (not to mention the subsequent Soviet invasion of Finland, and the forced annexation of the Baltic states).

    The Anglo-Americans were never called to account for invading and wrecking most of Western Europe and killing (and raping and looting) many more innocent civilians in the process than the Germans were ever accused of. But that was "liberation."

    I’m curious to know why you can’t seem to stay on topic. I’m talking about one town. You claim that this was a reprisal. OK, great: Tell me what the specific partisan activity was that caused this to occur. When responding, bear in mind that this event occurred a scare three months into Barbarossa, that the Red Army had overwhelmingly fled in the face of the invasion, and that the native population was overwhelmingly pro-German.

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they’re Jews, Mr. “I have Codreanu as my avatar.” The choice remains yours.

    Thanks in advance.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Soviets committed war crimes and resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare from the very beginning of Barbarossa, the fact that these particular shootings took place three months into the war is irrelevant.

    And don't be asinine, no one is "ok" with these kinds of things. Rational people can try to understand the overall context of historical events without having to resort to emotionalism, religious conviction, etc.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they’re Jews,
     

    iow, the deaths of millions of other people -- innocent civilians or disarmed enemy combatants or turned warriors (i.e. Italian army) are of no account unless they are Jewish.


    I remember the tune, "Dondi," about an Italian kid orphaned in WWII. I understand that thousands of Italian children were orphaned in WWII.

    The other day I searched for statistics on "Italian orphans WWII."

    Here's what the first hit says:
    http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/dc/cou/ita/ita-wo.html


    Large numbers of children were displaced as well as many orphaned. We have very few details on the dimensions of the problem. We know more about the measures taken by Italian authorities to deal with it at this time. We do known that an Irish priest, influenced by Father Flanigan's Boys' Town, organized Boys' Republic in 1945. The Catrtholic Church had programs to support war orphans. In many cases this meant children who had lost their fathers and the moter was unable to support them. Many were taken care of by extended Italian families. But larger numbers of children were on their own or with mothers who could not support them.
     
    The second hit is to the same website and reports substantially the same story: not much is known; the Catholic Church helped some, but mostly Italian children were on their own.

    The third and fourth hits provide information about


    "a magnificent villa [at Selvino, called Sciesopoli ] that once housed 800 Jewish children orphaned by the Holocaust. . . .
    Designed by architect Paolo Vieti-Violi in 1933, the building included dormitories, refectories, a cinema, an infirmary, a swimming pool and a 17,000-square-meter park. During the Mussolini regime, it had served as an institute for fascist youth.** . . .
     
    It was organized and run under direction of British forces . . .

    As noted below, the 800 Jewish children were either rescued from "German death camps" or gathered from "ghettoes and concentration camps". Take you pick: as long as the Jewish kids are described as "victims of Holocaust ™ -- i.e. living, breathing, superannuated survivors of the process of being wholly destroyed by fire -- the description is accurate. Also as noted below, Italian orphans were assuredly not victims, they were fascists.


    “Imagine, inside the building there was a cinema hall and a swimming pool. And it was in the Alps. It was really something for us,” says Burnstein, who is now 85 and lives in Israel. “We were mainly taught general knowledge and Hebrew. The brigade soldiers ran the studies. When we arrived in Israel we were already speaking Hebrew fluently.”
    Sciesopoli provided a shelter to Jewish orphans until 1948; by then, most of the children had found their way to prestate Israel. Vital was the help of the Milan Jewish community, the Milan municipality, the Jewish Brigade, the Jewish Agency, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, Youth Aliyah and former partisans.
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.582759"
     
    The purpose of the article in Haaretz is to raise the alarm that "Today, plans are afoot to tear the place down and build a tourist resort. . . They hope an international Jewish foundation will help them buy the property and work together on a renovation project. . . .to preserve its memory as a haven to Holocaust survivors. . . .
    “We asked the regional council to establish a working group ... for a rescue project that would include a memorial to the ‘children of Selvino,’” Cavallarin told Haaretz.
    "

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.582759

    from wikipedia, "Salvino children" --

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvino_children


    The Selvino children were a group of approximately 810 Jewish children orphaned by the Holocaust,[1] rescued after World War II from ghettos and concentration camps
     
    compare:

    the “Sciesopoli” became known as the “Jewish Colony ”. As reported in documents: “the biggest orphanage in Italy and one of the largest in Europe…” approximately 800 Jewish children who survived the Nazi death camps were cared for in the building named Sciesopoli.
     
    http://www.valbrembana.eu/en/poi/sciesopoli-dNSfwKYeyW-en

    But what happened to the thousands of Italian children who were orphaned by war?

    They got kicked out of the facility created for them.
    In exchange they got a song. And a movie.
    Such a deal.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ys4jQLFhkFQ

    --
    ** "institute for fascist youth" -- " A former Fascist children's home called Sciesopol . . . The facility had been constructed in the 1932-1934s (the colony was inaugurated on June 11, 1933, built by the architect of sports facilities Paolo Vietti Violi) as a "sports palace" or gymnasium and training center for athletes." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvino_children

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  189. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    No, I believe he does say 2M. Perhaps you are nitpicking over the Einzatgruppen proper or some other German police group?

    Turns out we’re both wrong. Hilberg puts open air shootings in the USSR by all perpetrators at 1.3 million.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Fair enough, but other sources put the number at 2M. As I said, it's somewhat fluid (not to mention unrealistic), only the 6M number appears engraved in stone.
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  190. @Anon
    I'm curious to know why you can't seem to stay on topic. I'm talking about one town. You claim that this was a reprisal. OK, great: Tell me what the specific partisan activity was that caused this to occur. When responding, bear in mind that this event occurred a scare three months into Barbarossa, that the Red Army had overwhelmingly fled in the face of the invasion, and that the native population was overwhelmingly pro-German.

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they're Jews, Mr. "I have Codreanu as my avatar." The choice remains yours.

    Thanks in advance.

    The Soviets committed war crimes and resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare from the very beginning of Barbarossa, the fact that these particular shootings took place three months into the war is irrelevant.

    And don’t be asinine, no one is “ok” with these kinds of things. Rational people can try to understand the overall context of historical events without having to resort to emotionalism, religious conviction, etc.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    I rather think Mulegino1 is fine with these things. His hero Codreanu was chanting "kill the Jews" long before the war began. That's why he won't answer. Being honest would alienate allies like you.
    , @MarkinLA
    resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare

    What is illegal about it, there was no peace treaty. In addition, the German were brutal to the Slavs since they didn't think it would matter.
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  191. @Anon
    Turns out we're both wrong. Hilberg puts open air shootings in the USSR by all perpetrators at 1.3 million.

    Fair enough, but other sources put the number at 2M. As I said, it’s somewhat fluid (not to mention unrealistic), only the 6M number appears engraved in stone.

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  192. @Avery
    {Where are you getting this????}

    I am getting this by reading comments @unz when WW2 is discussed.
    For many years and many different threads.
    There are several posters, who I assume to be of German descent or sympathizers of Nazis/Hitler, who post comments defending Hitler's invasion of USSR.
    You can see one in this thread: [Mulegino1].

    {What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union.}

    (a bogus excuse, having been debunked by many historians, notably David M. Glantz, an American military historian.)

    Read poster [MarkinLA] reply #121, and tell us if poster [Mulegino1] is not nostalgic for Hitler.

    Yeah, Hitler was not German-German: he was Austrian, a Germanic ethnos.
    Aaaand.....80 million German-Germans followed and obeyed him: all the way to the Gates of Hell.
    Napoleon was not French: he was Corsican, but we don't say Corsica invaded e.g. Russia: France and the Grande Arme did.


    Oh,almost forgot: "Jeeze Lousie".
    So, there.

    1. For those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: contemplate for a few minutes a pithy piece posted by Pat Lang a month ago: “Analysis is not advocacy.” Those who can learn and grow from such an insight, will.

    2. re the extended/distended/distorted discussion re a comparison of Revisionist zionists and Hitler Youth:

    ” Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. ”
    Yes, also Moshe Arens–all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.

    especially the bolded statement that’s caused such agita:

    “(no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party)”

    The only similarity I see is that both groups were young/teenagers. More appropriately, esp. in the case of Jabotinskyites, RZs were young-to slightly older adults, many with superior educations obtained in Germany, Austria, USA, Rome — in the case of Vladimir Jabotinsky hisself: jabotinsky’s friend and biographer, J. Schectman (iirc) recorded that young Vlad found and grounded his “spiritual being” in Rome, where he was an ardent admirer of Mussolini.

    While young Jabotinsky was reveling in the Russian literature of his home town of Odessa — where he disdained most association with things Jewish — then traveling to Rome to immerse himself in studies at universities there, future “Hitler Youth” were living in squalor, their bodies displaying rickets, intellectual deficiencies and other impacts of malnourishment in their youths, brought about by starvation blockades imposed on German civilians — women and children — by those guardians of civilization, the British, with a little help from Chaim Weizmann and his cohort who traded German children for a “Homeland for Jews in Palestine.” (Jews have a long history of taking out their revenge fantasies on other people’s children ***)

    I don’t think “Hitler Youth” were “self-righteous bullies.” Aware of their background and context (i.e. attempting to do analysis, not advocacy), I perceive them as teenagers whose childhood had presaged a bleak future; they were given a new lease on life, a new future, by organization, inspiration and discipline delivered by the NS government [there was a film clip of a German who had been a youth in the NSDAP era, who reflected in positive terms on his life as a Hitler youth. I can no longer find it via a google search. Perhaps Wally can help??]

    Die Fahne Hoch tells the story the Hitler Youth vested in; the lyrics contain a remembrance of their dead comrade, Horst Wessel; they valorize the “brown battalion” and “SS” who cleared the streets of what had been frequent riots involving “the Red Front” and reactionaries; the lyrics rejoice that the “days of freedom and of bread” were at hand; the German people were unified and had hope under the Stars and Stripes — oops, I mean under the German battle flag with its swastika symbol. Maybe Avery or Skeptikal or even Wiz of Oz can correct my deluded impression, but I don’t see any line or sentiment in Die Fahne Hoch that reflects hatred, or the intent to “dash infant’s heads against the rocks” [see *** below], yet early in 1933, James Waterman Wise, son of Rabbi Stephen Wise, wrote and published a book titled Swastika; http://www.unz.org/Pub/WiseJames-1933 (full text https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000417009;view=1up;seq=13 ) it opens with these words:

    “By decree issued in Berlin March 12, 1933, the Nazi banner together with that of the Old Empire was proclaimed the flag of Germany. Upon it was inscribed the Swastika — symbolizing hatred of the Jew – and in that sign the new German Government, with Hitler at its head, declared and is waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens.”

    The first chapter is titled, The Advance Guard of Hate.

    Those opening words, penned sometime between March 12, 1933 and May, 1933, are even more interesting when juxtaposed with a conversation their author’s father, Rabbi Stephen Wise, had with then-supreme court justice, ultra-zionist and hofjuden Louis Brandeis sometime in the first two weeks of February, 1933: Brandeis directed Wise that “All Jews must leave Germany . . . I urge that no Jew remain in Germany.”
    “How shall all 587,000 Jews should be removed from Germany,” replied Wise, incredulous.
    “I urge that no Jew remain in Germany,” Brandeis repeated. [see "The Challenging Years," an autobiography, by Rabbi Stephen Wise].

    Makes good sense, you say: Jews in Germany were in grievous peril; of course the ‘leader’ of zionist Jews would direct that they flee that peril.

    BUT: (1) According the Breitman and Lichtman in “FDR and the Jews,” in 1933, Jews in Germany were not only not in a perilous status but the situation of Jews in Germany was calmed by NSDAP: after a short period in which power was consolidated, “NSDAP quelled physical violence against Jews . . . No Jew was sent to a concentration camp until late in 1938.”

    (2) According to Francis Nicosia in Zionism and anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany, Jewish zionists from Palestine (the Mossad el-Aliyeh bet) worked openly with Gestapo and other German government authorities to assist German Jews to migrate to Palestine. If Germans were so driven by Jew-hatred that they were “waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens,” why were they not killing them on the spot?

    (3) The real threat to Jews was taking place in Poland, home to about 3 million Jews, as well as Russia: in the wake of turmoil in those East European locales, Jews from both of these states clamored to get to Germany. The narrative spun around Herschel Grynszpan reflects the tensions between Jews in Poland, the Polish government, and the quest to migrate to Germany.
    Why didn’t Brandeis direct that Jews from Poland be aided to leave Poland and migrate to Palestine?

    (4) Waterman Wise’s book calls the Swastika the “symbol of Jew hatred.”
    Interesting factoid: According to Ernst (“Putzi”) Hanfstaengl, Harvard grad, lunch companion to Franklin Roosevelt, financial backer of the enterprise that published “Mein Kampf” and angel to Adolf Hitler who encouraged him to write the book and later rescued him in the aftermath of the Beer hall Putsch, the “Heil, Hitler” chant was based on a Harvard football cheer, and the bold Red, White and Black Swastika banner that inspired so much fear in Waterman Wise bears an extremely close similarity to banners that dominated the Harvard campus in that era. Harvard’s banner symbolizes Hatred of Jews? Who knew?

    (5) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, by combining readings from Vladimir Jabotinsky’s staunch vision for the resettlement of “ALL diaspora Jews in Palestine,” and Edwin Black’s explanations of the dire economic situation of the zionist project in Palestine, exacerbated by British Mandate rules that only wealthy Jews could enter the land — and only German Jews had that kind of wealth — it’s possible to understand a more try-to-reality version of Brandeis’s directive that “All Jews must leave Germany.” It was about the money (and the fanatic zionist ideology).

    [MORE]

    —-
    *** Many people know the first part of Psalm 137:
    “By the streams of Babylon we sat and wept
    When we remembered Zion . . .
    If I forget thee o Zion may my right hand be forgotten . . .”

    But have you read the entire psalm to its last lines?

    “Daughter Babylon [Germany, Palestine, Iran], doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.”

    In WWI, exactly what did Germany do to Jews that should demand “repayment”? What has Iran done to Jews?

    What’s really significant, from my perspective, about Psalm 137 is the fact that it is the basis of Verdi’s opera, Nabucco, and the iconic choral, “Va, pensiero,” considered by many Italians to be an unofficial Italian ‘national anthem.’ Verdi subtly but completely reframed Psalm 137: Where the Hebrew psalmist says, “We will hang up our harps and NOT sing our songs,” Verdi says:

    Arpa d’or dei fatidici vati,
    perché muta dal salice pendi?
    Le memorie nel petto raccendi,
    ci favella del tempo che fu!

    Golden harp of the prophetic wise men,
    why hang so silently from the willows?
    Rekindle the memories in our hearts,
    tell us about the times gone by!

    And while the Hebrew psalmist concludes his prayer —

    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.

    Verdi prays:

    o t’ispiri il Signore un concento
    che ne infonda al patire virtù!

    [Let us] be inspired by the Lord
    to fortify us to endure our suffering!

    See the essential difference?
    (Notice especially the word, virtù, and recognize that virtù — manly courage — was one of Machiavelli’s key concepts. Machiavelli wrote that when a state had completely lost its communal virtu, the only possibility for redeeming the state was the creation of a temporary dictatorship willing to take the harsh measures necessary. As both Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen state in their treatments of The Prince, Machiavelli’s most admired model was Moses, who was willing to- and did- direct the killing of Jews in order to achieve the conquest of Canaan, the Promised land. )

    Go a step further: I know zip of musicology, but I’m aware of the power of Orpheus, i.e. the salvific power of the harp/music/song: the Hebrew psalmist says, “ain’t no way we’re going to let foreigners in on our salvific song, or the mystical power of our harp; no, we’ll kill your children THEN we’ll sing our song to rejoice in our triumph!

    Verdi, and my Italian forebears urge: Sing your songs NOW, when you are so utterly in need of encouragement toward the salvation of your homeland, “so beautiful yet so lost” —

    Oh, mia patria sì bella e perduta!
    Oh, membranza sì cara e fatal!

    But there’s still one more aspect to a comparison of Psalm 137 to Va, pensiero:

    I discovered it through this duet — Pavarotti and an Italian popular songster singing a (bastardized) version of Va, Pensiero:

    Zucchero claims his style is inspired by American R&B, but listen beyond the (obvious) gap in talent between him and Pavarotti, to the words they sing.

    Here’s the Zucchero version of Verdi’s version of Psalm 137:

    Reach the land find the place
    Where all children go
    Everynight after listening to this lullaby.

    There you’ll find their heroes alive
    Protecting their innocence
    Bless them all ‘cos their simple soul
    is so pure and wonderful.

    Va’ pensiero sull’ali dorate
    Let this beautiful dream carry on
    For all night long.

    Lend them your golden wings
    Every fear will fly away
    Take them by the hand
    Help’em find an easy way

    Lead them back to the light, back to the light
    Where they once used to belong
    Where they can remain
    Children as long as they want.

    The Hebrew Psalmist says, “Kill their children!”

    Verdi says: “Inspire us with manly courage to reclaim our homeland, so beautiful and lost.”

    Zuccharo sings: “Help ‘em find an easy way . . . Where they can be children as long as they want.”

    Draw your own conclusions.

    What do you wish for your children
    – that they grow up sufficiently motivated to take revenge on other people’s children for the (fantasized) wrongs committed against you?

    – that they grow up steeped in the beauty and possibilities of their homeland, and courageous enough to bring about its revitalization?

    – that they remain children as long as they want, living in a magical dream world ?

    Hey, on a roll here: Just started reading Dinesh D’Souza’s paean to the Jewish holocaust narrative, “The Big Lie.” (irony alert). Don’t have it at my elbow just now, but I recall that D.D’S. included in his litany of Nazee offenses was the so-called NS national anthem, “Die Fahne Hoch.”

    D.D’S. belittles the death of Horst Wessel and asserts that the song drafted by Goebbels is an anthem of hate.
    I don’t get it.
    Compare Die Fahne Hoch to, say, Toby Keith’s “Courtesy of the Red White and Blue” —
    does it make you proud to belt out, “We’ll put a boot in your eye, It’s the American Way” ?

    Which category of “Va, Pensiero” and the salvific power of song does Toby Keith reflect?
    Which category of the salvific power of song does “Die Fahne Hoch” reflect?
    Why are Jews like ADL and their sycophants like Dinesh D’Souza so afraid of “Die Fahne Hoch?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    You needn't have written your very long post with ample references to Jews: I am not Jewish.
    I am of Armenian descent. Not my fight: lots of Jewish posters to discuss with you what you call {......those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: }

    (I suppose you consider yours truly so suffering from said syndrome?: you don't have to be PC; you can tell it to my face)

    My interest in Hitler and Nazis is their invasion of USSR (Armenia SSR was part of USSR then and lots and lots of Armenians from throughout USSR fought and KIA fighting Nazi invaders, including very high ranking officers)**.

    All you had to do was entertain my original query, and not go on a Jewish tangent*.

    You wrote:
    [{Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}]

    I wrote:
    [You are not serious, are you?
    What were Hitler’s troops doing in Stalingrad?
    Defending their own?
    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.]

    Again, what were Hitler's troops doing on the banks of Volga river, ~3,000 kilometers East of Berlin?
    And murdering ~15 million Soviet civilians and 10 million Soviet troops KIA is no syndrome: it is a fact.

    ___________
    * I know all about Jewish-American Neocons, Jewish-American NGOs (e.g. ADL) who are working with Turks to deny the Armenian Genocide, State of Israel helping Azerbaijan/Turkbaijan to exterminate indigenous Armenians of Artsakh (aka Nagorno-Karabagh),....I know it all.
    But I am discussing WW2 and invasion of USSR here, not the history of Jews.

    ** [During World War II, Marshal Bagramyan was the first non-Slavic military officer to become a commander of a Front. He was among several Armenians in the Soviet Army who held the highest proportion of high-ranking officers in the Soviet military during the war.] (Wiki)

    , @Rurik
    http://www.unz.com/proberts/tyranny-at-nuremberg/

    good read on allied treachery and lies following WWII


    In 1940 Jackson was US Attorney General. He addressed federal prosecutors and warned them against “picking the man and then putting investigators to work, to pin some offense on him. It is in this realm—in which the prosecutor picks some person whom he dislikes or desires to embarrass, or selects some group of unpopular persons and then looks for an offense—that the greatest danger of abuse of prosecuting power lies. It is here that law enforcement becomes personal, and the real crime becomes that of being unpopular with the predominant or governing group, being attached to the wrong political views or being personally obnoxious to, or in the way of, the prosecutor himself.”
     
    I wonder if PCR was thinking in the back of his mind about Robert Mueller's use of the law to destroy an unpopular person (and scores of millions of deplorables and irredeemables) and then looks for an 'offense' to convict them of?

    how much would you like to bet that they'd love to crush some testicles (like they did to the Nazi defendants) in order to get some confessions?
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  193. @Anon
    I'm curious to know why you can't seem to stay on topic. I'm talking about one town. You claim that this was a reprisal. OK, great: Tell me what the specific partisan activity was that caused this to occur. When responding, bear in mind that this event occurred a scare three months into Barbarossa, that the Red Army had overwhelmingly fled in the face of the invasion, and that the native population was overwhelmingly pro-German.

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they're Jews, Mr. "I have Codreanu as my avatar." The choice remains yours.

    Thanks in advance.

    Try this time to remain limited to this town and to German crimes against Jews. You and I are both aware of the context.

    Or you can just admit that killing of a whole town of innocent people is ok with you provided they’re Jews,

    iow, the deaths of millions of other people — innocent civilians or disarmed enemy combatants or turned warriors (i.e. Italian army) are of no account unless they are Jewish.

    I remember the tune, “Dondi,” about an Italian kid orphaned in WWII. I understand that thousands of Italian children were orphaned in WWII.

    The other day I searched for statistics on “Italian orphans WWII.”

    Here’s what the first hit says:

    http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/dc/cou/ita/ita-wo.html

    Large numbers of children were displaced as well as many orphaned. We have very few details on the dimensions of the problem. We know more about the measures taken by Italian authorities to deal with it at this time. We do known that an Irish priest, influenced by Father Flanigan’s Boys’ Town, organized Boys’ Republic in 1945. The Catrtholic Church had programs to support war orphans. In many cases this meant children who had lost their fathers and the moter was unable to support them. Many were taken care of by extended Italian families. But larger numbers of children were on their own or with mothers who could not support them.

    The second hit is to the same website and reports substantially the same story: not much is known; the Catholic Church helped some, but mostly Italian children were on their own.

    The third and fourth hits provide information about

    “a magnificent villa [at Selvino, called Sciesopoli ] that once housed 800 Jewish children orphaned by the Holocaust. . . .
    Designed by architect Paolo Vieti-Violi in 1933, the building included dormitories, refectories, a cinema, an infirmary, a swimming pool and a 17,000-square-meter park. During the Mussolini regime, it had served as an institute for fascist youth.** . . .

    It was organized and run under direction of British forces . . .

    As noted below, the 800 Jewish children were either rescued from “German death camps” or gathered from “ghettoes and concentration camps”. Take you pick: as long as the Jewish kids are described as “victims of Holocaust ™ — i.e. living, breathing, superannuated survivors of the process of being wholly destroyed by fire — the description is accurate. Also as noted below, Italian orphans were assuredly not victims, they were fascists.

    “Imagine, inside the building there was a cinema hall and a swimming pool. And it was in the Alps. It was really something for us,” says Burnstein, who is now 85 and lives in Israel. “We were mainly taught general knowledge and Hebrew. The brigade soldiers ran the studies. When we arrived in Israel we were already speaking Hebrew fluently.”
    Sciesopoli provided a shelter to Jewish orphans until 1948; by then, most of the children had found their way to prestate Israel. Vital was the help of the Milan Jewish community, the Milan municipality, the Jewish Brigade, the Jewish Agency, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee, Youth Aliyah and former partisans.
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.582759″

    The purpose of the article in Haaretz is to raise the alarm that “Today, plans are afoot to tear the place down and build a tourist resort. . . They hope an international Jewish foundation will help them buy the property and work together on a renovation project. . . .to preserve its memory as a haven to Holocaust survivors. . . .
    “We asked the regional council to establish a working group … for a rescue project that would include a memorial to the ‘children of Selvino,’” Cavallarin told Haaretz.

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/.premium-1.582759

    from wikipedia, “Salvino children” –

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvino_children

    The Selvino children were a group of approximately 810 Jewish children orphaned by the Holocaust,[1] rescued after World War II from ghettos and concentration camps

    compare:

    the “Sciesopoli” became known as the “Jewish Colony ”. As reported in documents: “the biggest orphanage in Italy and one of the largest in Europe…” approximately 800 Jewish children who survived the Nazi death camps were cared for in the building named Sciesopoli.

    http://www.valbrembana.eu/en/poi/sciesopoli-dNSfwKYeyW-en

    But what happened to the thousands of Italian children who were orphaned by war?

    They got kicked out of the facility created for them.
    In exchange they got a song. And a movie.
    Such a deal.


    ** “institute for fascist youth” — ” A former Fascist children’s home called Sciesopol . . . The facility had been constructed in the 1932-1934s (the colony was inaugurated on June 11, 1933, built by the architect of sports facilities Paolo Vietti Violi) as a “sports palace” or gymnasium and training center for athletes.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selvino_children

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  194. Avery says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    1. For those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: contemplate for a few minutes a pithy piece posted by Pat Lang a month ago: "Analysis is not advocacy." Those who can learn and grow from such an insight, will.

    2. re the extended/distended/distorted discussion re a comparison of Revisionist zionists and Hitler Youth:

    ” Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. ”
    Yes, also Moshe Arens–all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
     
    especially the bolded statement that's caused such agita:

    "(no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party)"

    The only similarity I see is that both groups were young/teenagers. More appropriately, esp. in the case of Jabotinskyites, RZs were young-to slightly older adults, many with superior educations obtained in Germany, Austria, USA, Rome -- in the case of Vladimir Jabotinsky hisself: jabotinsky's friend and biographer, J. Schectman (iirc) recorded that young Vlad found and grounded his "spiritual being" in Rome, where he was an ardent admirer of Mussolini.

    While young Jabotinsky was reveling in the Russian literature of his home town of Odessa -- where he disdained most association with things Jewish -- then traveling to Rome to immerse himself in studies at universities there, future "Hitler Youth" were living in squalor, their bodies displaying rickets, intellectual deficiencies and other impacts of malnourishment in their youths, brought about by starvation blockades imposed on German civilians -- women and children -- by those guardians of civilization, the British, with a little help from Chaim Weizmann and his cohort who traded German children for a "Homeland for Jews in Palestine." (Jews have a long history of taking out their revenge fantasies on other people's children ***)

    I don't think "Hitler Youth" were "self-righteous bullies." Aware of their background and context (i.e. attempting to do analysis, not advocacy), I perceive them as teenagers whose childhood had presaged a bleak future; they were given a new lease on life, a new future, by organization, inspiration and discipline delivered by the NS government [there was a film clip of a German who had been a youth in the NSDAP era, who reflected in positive terms on his life as a Hitler youth. I can no longer find it via a google search. Perhaps Wally can help??]

    Die Fahne Hoch tells the story the Hitler Youth vested in; the lyrics contain a remembrance of their dead comrade, Horst Wessel; they valorize the "brown battalion" and "SS" who cleared the streets of what had been frequent riots involving "the Red Front" and reactionaries; the lyrics rejoice that the "days of freedom and of bread" were at hand; the German people were unified and had hope under the Stars and Stripes -- oops, I mean under the German battle flag with its swastika symbol. Maybe Avery or Skeptikal or even Wiz of Oz can correct my deluded impression, but I don't see any line or sentiment in Die Fahne Hoch that reflects hatred, or the intent to "dash infant's heads against the rocks" [see *** below], yet early in 1933, James Waterman Wise, son of Rabbi Stephen Wise, wrote and published a book titled Swastika; http://www.unz.org/Pub/WiseJames-1933 (full text https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000417009;view=1up;seq=13 ) it opens with these words:

    "By decree issued in Berlin March 12, 1933, the Nazi banner together with that of the Old Empire was proclaimed the flag of Germany. Upon it was inscribed the Swastika -- symbolizing hatred of the Jew -- and in that sign the new German Government, with Hitler at its head, declared and is waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens."
     
    The first chapter is titled, The Advance Guard of Hate.

    Those opening words, penned sometime between March 12, 1933 and May, 1933, are even more interesting when juxtaposed with a conversation their author's father, Rabbi Stephen Wise, had with then-supreme court justice, ultra-zionist and hofjuden Louis Brandeis sometime in the first two weeks of February, 1933: Brandeis directed Wise that "All Jews must leave Germany . . . I urge that no Jew remain in Germany."
    "How shall all 587,000 Jews should be removed from Germany," replied Wise, incredulous.
    "I urge that no Jew remain in Germany," Brandeis repeated. [see "The Challenging Years," an autobiography, by Rabbi Stephen Wise].

    Makes good sense, you say: Jews in Germany were in grievous peril; of course the 'leader' of zionist Jews would direct that they flee that peril.

    BUT: (1) According the Breitman and Lichtman in "FDR and the Jews," in 1933, Jews in Germany were not only not in a perilous status but the situation of Jews in Germany was calmed by NSDAP: after a short period in which power was consolidated, "NSDAP quelled physical violence against Jews . . . No Jew was sent to a concentration camp until late in 1938."

    (2) According to Francis Nicosia in Zionism and anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany, Jewish zionists from Palestine (the Mossad el-Aliyeh bet) worked openly with Gestapo and other German government authorities to assist German Jews to migrate to Palestine. If Germans were so driven by Jew-hatred that they were "waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens," why were they not killing them on the spot?

    (3) The real threat to Jews was taking place in Poland, home to about 3 million Jews, as well as Russia: in the wake of turmoil in those East European locales, Jews from both of these states clamored to get to Germany. The narrative spun around Herschel Grynszpan reflects the tensions between Jews in Poland, the Polish government, and the quest to migrate to Germany.
    Why didn't Brandeis direct that Jews from Poland be aided to leave Poland and migrate to Palestine?

    (4) Waterman Wise's book calls the Swastika the "symbol of Jew hatred."
    Interesting factoid: According to Ernst ("Putzi") Hanfstaengl, Harvard grad, lunch companion to Franklin Roosevelt, financial backer of the enterprise that published "Mein Kampf" and angel to Adolf Hitler who encouraged him to write the book and later rescued him in the aftermath of the Beer hall Putsch, the "Heil, Hitler" chant was based on a Harvard football cheer, and the bold Red, White and Black Swastika banner that inspired so much fear in Waterman Wise bears an extremely close similarity to banners that dominated the Harvard campus in that era. Harvard's banner symbolizes Hatred of Jews? Who knew?

    (5) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, by combining readings from Vladimir Jabotinsky's staunch vision for the resettlement of "ALL diaspora Jews in Palestine," and Edwin Black's explanations of the dire economic situation of the zionist project in Palestine, exacerbated by British Mandate rules that only wealthy Jews could enter the land -- and only German Jews had that kind of wealth -- it's possible to understand a more try-to-reality version of Brandeis's directive that "All Jews must leave Germany." It was about the money (and the fanatic zionist ideology).



    ----
    *** Many people know the first part of Psalm 137:
    "By the streams of Babylon we sat and wept
    When we remembered Zion . . .
    If I forget thee o Zion may my right hand be forgotten . . ."

    But have you read the entire psalm to its last lines?

    "Daughter Babylon [Germany, Palestine, Iran], doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks."


    In WWI, exactly what did Germany do to Jews that should demand "repayment"? What has Iran done to Jews?

    What's really significant, from my perspective, about Psalm 137 is the fact that it is the basis of Verdi's opera, Nabucco, and the iconic choral, "Va, pensiero," considered by many Italians to be an unofficial Italian 'national anthem.' Verdi subtly but completely reframed Psalm 137: Where the Hebrew psalmist says, "We will hang up our harps and NOT sing our songs," Verdi says:


    Arpa d'or dei fatidici vati,
    perché muta dal salice pendi?
    Le memorie nel petto raccendi,
    ci favella del tempo che fu!


    Golden harp of the prophetic wise men,
    why hang so silently from the willows?
    Rekindle the memories in our hearts,
    tell us about the times gone by!

    And while the Hebrew psalmist concludes his prayer --

    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.


    Verdi prays:

    o t'ispiri il Signore un concento
    che ne infonda al patire virtù!


    [Let us] be inspired by the Lord
    to fortify us to endure our suffering!


    See the essential difference?
    (Notice especially the word, virtù, and recognize that virtù -- manly courage -- was one of Machiavelli's key concepts. Machiavelli wrote that when a state had completely lost its communal virtu, the only possibility for redeeming the state was the creation of a temporary dictatorship willing to take the harsh measures necessary. As both Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen state in their treatments of The Prince, Machiavelli's most admired model was Moses, who was willing to- and did- direct the killing of Jews in order to achieve the conquest of Canaan, the Promised land. )

    Go a step further: I know zip of musicology, but I'm aware of the power of Orpheus, i.e. the salvific power of the harp/music/song: the Hebrew psalmist says, "ain't no way we're going to let foreigners in on our salvific song, or the mystical power of our harp; no, we'll kill your children THEN we'll sing our song to rejoice in our triumph!

    Verdi, and my Italian forebears urge: Sing your songs NOW, when you are so utterly in need of encouragement toward the salvation of your homeland, "so beautiful yet so lost" --

    Oh, mia patria sì bella e perduta!
    Oh, membranza sì cara e fatal!




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laSuOwGgVvQ

    But there's still one more aspect to a comparison of Psalm 137 to Va, pensiero:

    I discovered it through this duet -- Pavarotti and an Italian popular songster singing a (bastardized) version of Va, Pensiero:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bt9RTMDvX4

    Zucchero claims his style is inspired by American R&B, but listen beyond the (obvious) gap in talent between him and Pavarotti, to the words they sing.

    Here's the Zucchero version of Verdi's version of Psalm 137:

    Reach the land find the place
    Where all children go
    Everynight after listening to this lullaby.

    There you'll find their heroes alive
    Protecting their innocence
    Bless them all 'cos their simple soul
    is so pure and wonderful.

    Va' pensiero sull'ali dorate
    Let this beautiful dream carry on
    For all night long.

    Lend them your golden wings
    Every fear will fly away
    Take them by the hand
    Help'em find an easy way

    Lead them back to the light, back to the light
    Where they once used to belong
    Where they can remain
    Children as long as they want.


    The Hebrew Psalmist says, "Kill their children!"

    Verdi says: "Inspire us with manly courage to reclaim our homeland, so beautiful and lost."

    Zuccharo sings: "Help 'em find an easy way . . . Where they can be children as long as they want."

    Draw your own conclusions.

    What do you wish for your children
    -- that they grow up sufficiently motivated to take revenge on other people's children for the (fantasized) wrongs committed against you?

    -- that they grow up steeped in the beauty and possibilities of their homeland, and courageous enough to bring about its revitalization?

    -- that they remain children as long as they want, living in a magical dream world ?

    Hey, on a roll here: Just started reading Dinesh D'Souza's paean to the Jewish holocaust narrative, "The Big Lie." (irony alert). Don't have it at my elbow just now, but I recall that D.D'S. included in his litany of Nazee offenses was the so-called NS national anthem, "Die Fahne Hoch."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T0qDDo1Dk

    D.D'S. belittles the death of Horst Wessel and asserts that the song drafted by Goebbels is an anthem of hate.
    I don't get it.
    Compare Die Fahne Hoch to, say, Toby Keith's "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" --
    does it make you proud to belt out, "We'll put a boot in your eye, It's the American Way" ?

    Which category of "Va, Pensiero" and the salvific power of song does Toby Keith reflect?
    Which category of the salvific power of song does "Die Fahne Hoch" reflect?
    Why are Jews like ADL and their sycophants like Dinesh D'Souza so afraid of "Die Fahne Hoch?"

    You needn’t have written your very long post with ample references to Jews: I am not Jewish.
    I am of Armenian descent. Not my fight: lots of Jewish posters to discuss with you what you call {……those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: }

    (I suppose you consider yours truly so suffering from said syndrome?: you don’t have to be PC; you can tell it to my face)

    My interest in Hitler and Nazis is their invasion of USSR (Armenia SSR was part of USSR then and lots and lots of Armenians from throughout USSR fought and KIA fighting Nazi invaders, including very high ranking officers)**.

    All you had to do was entertain my original query, and not go on a Jewish tangent*.

    You wrote:
    [{Hitler Youth did not use terror, they used discipline. Their goal was not stealing other people’s land but rather defending their own.}]

    I wrote:
    [You are not serious, are you?
    What were Hitler’s troops doing in Stalingrad?
    Defending their own?
    And of course Hitler was defending his own when he invaded USSR and killed millions of Slavic civilians,
    And of course there was no such thing as Lebensraum.]

    Again, what were Hitler’s troops doing on the banks of Volga river, ~3,000 kilometers East of Berlin?
    And murdering ~15 million Soviet civilians and 10 million Soviet troops KIA is no syndrome: it is a fact.

    ___________
    * I know all about Jewish-American Neocons, Jewish-American NGOs (e.g. ADL) who are working with Turks to deny the Armenian Genocide, State of Israel helping Azerbaijan/Turkbaijan to exterminate indigenous Armenians of Artsakh (aka Nagorno-Karabagh),….I know it all.
    But I am discussing WW2 and invasion of USSR here, not the history of Jews.

    ** [During World War II, Marshal Bagramyan was the first non-Slavic military officer to become a commander of a Front. He was among several Armenians in the Soviet Army who held the highest proportion of high-ranking officers in the Soviet military during the war.] (Wiki)

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  195. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Soviets committed war crimes and resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare from the very beginning of Barbarossa, the fact that these particular shootings took place three months into the war is irrelevant.

    And don't be asinine, no one is "ok" with these kinds of things. Rational people can try to understand the overall context of historical events without having to resort to emotionalism, religious conviction, etc.

    I rather think Mulegino1 is fine with these things. His hero Codreanu was chanting “kill the Jews” long before the war began. That’s why he won’t answer. Being honest would alienate allies like you.

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Do you seriously think that I am ashamed or apologetic about having Codreanu as my avatar? Forget that. Codreanu was a true fighter for his people and ultimately paid for that with his life. That is more than most of the imbecilic lumpen prole infotainment consumers can say about those they admire, with their football jerseys evincing their admiration of athletes named Keishan, Devall or Tyrone.

    Who are your role models? Ellen De Generes? Kanye West? The cast of "The View"?
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  196. @Mulegino1
    They were indeed. Germany was demonized for responding forcefully to Polish aggression, bellicosity and intransigence - which included total mobilization of the Polish armed forces before the Germans mobilized their own, as well as outright calls for war and the Polish occupation of Berlin. In response, England and France declared war on Germany for its war with (not on) Poland, yet completely ignored the Soviet invasion of Poland which occurred a few weeks later (not to mention the subsequent Soviet invasion of Finland, and the forced annexation of the Baltic states).

    The Anglo-Americans were never called to account for invading and wrecking most of Western Europe and killing (and raping and looting) many more innocent civilians in the process than the Germans were ever accused of. But that was "liberation."

    ” and (raping) and looting”

    You are crazy , and talking shit.

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was “raping” of innocent women in war zones.

    No denying there were such rare and severely punished incidents, but such as wrought upon the civilian female population of Germany by the Russians : Did not happen.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet and pro Jazz musician.

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    Of course nothing is comparable to what the Red Army (not necessarily Russians) did to the women of Germany, but the western Allies did their fair share of raping and looting. I suggest you check out the book: "What Soldiers Do." Also, how do you explain the mass rape of the Italian women in the villages in the vicinity of Monte Cassino (the destruction of which is another example of Allied barbarism)?
    They were carried out by Moroccan troops encouraged to do so by the "Free French" General Jouin. The whole b.s. "Private Ryan" liberation narrative is crap. The only things liberated by the Anglo-Americans were the lives, real estate and possessions of Western and Central Europeans- from their rightful possessors.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was “raping” of innocent women in war zones.
     
    Germany's 'brown babies' go in search of their American fathers: The extraordinary story of thousands of wartime children born to German mothers and black GIs
    By Daily Mail Reporter
    21 November 2011
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064446/Germanys-brown-babies-search-American-fathers.html#ixzz4pawfy4l8

    'Brown babies' in postwar Europe : the Italian case
     
    PATRIARCA, Silvana
    http://cadmus.eui.eu/handle/1814/41165
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  197. annamaria says:
    @Anon
    Because force requires both mass and acceleration.

    What you wrote has no sense in the context of the discussion. Except if you want to litter the Unz forum with debris.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    You're kidding, right?

    To bring down a building requires force.

    Force, according to the most basic principle in physics, is equal to mass times acceleration.

    Both a building and a plane have made. Only one has acceleration.

    Can't make it any more relevant for you. Sorry.
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  198. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @annamaria
    What you wrote has no sense in the context of the discussion. Except if you want to litter the Unz forum with debris.

    You’re kidding, right?

    To bring down a building requires force.

    Force, according to the most basic principle in physics, is equal to mass times acceleration.

    Both a building and a plane have made. Only one has acceleration.

    Can’t make it any more relevant for you. Sorry.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    "Both a building and a plane have made." - ?!

    Have you considered the direction of the force? Why don't you first read the experts -- the physicists', chemists', architects', and mechanical engineers' reports -- before presenting the "basic principle in physics?"

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  199. annamaria says:
    @dcite
    Yes, it is impossible for a building that size to be totally dustified in a few minutes by one or two planes. Totally nonsense. The true perps of this event screwed up big-time. Only the treasonous MSM saved their hides, as it continues to do. An employee of 20 years in the building, Wm. Rodriguez, heard explosions before the planes hit. He was interviewed for hours by the commission "studying" the event, and his testimony did not appear in the final report. Same sort of thing as happened with the Warren Commission. They always use the same M.O. with varying degrees of success depending on the media and the courage and determination of the true investigators.
    Anyone who dismisses many years of serious research and warranted questions as "conspiracy theory" immediately loses any credibility. "Conspiracy theory" was a term invented by the CIA after the JFK assassination in response to questioning the absurd Warren Commission headed by, Allen Dulles, an expert in psychological warfare and sworn enemy of the man whose murder he was supposed to be investigating. If someone is satisfied with the conclusions of Official Government Reports, I wouldn't trust them to investigator the death of my cat. And the conspiracy "theorists" (read facts) are the crazy ones? The media has made us think stupidly and insanely with huge holes in the final product, assuming we all have holes in our heads. I think it was who Orwell who said the lies of the media would be mostly lies of omission. How very prescient.

    It is interesting that Allen Dulles legacy is his subversive and considerable anti-democratic and pro-fascism influence which, in the long run, has profoundly hurt the US. It does make some minor justice to the legacy of Dulles that Imran Awan was arrested at the Dulles airport. The history of ziocon influence on the US policies is inseparable from the history of Dulles’ CIA. The incompetence of the CIA is traced to Dulles as well because of his cult unaccountability.

    https://theintercept.com/2015/11/02/the-deepest-state-the-safari-club-allen-dulles-and-the-devils-chessboard/

    Dulles’ dictum, “Democracy only works if the so-called intelligent people make it work. You can’t sit back and let democracy run itself,” has been taken in earnest by the US deciders — who did not “sit” indeed. As a result, we have a pre-nuclear-war situation, the devastating rule of banksters and war-profiteers, and the voiceless US citizenry (see single-payer bill killed in California by the Democrats). The official reports on the JFK murder and on the 9/11 “event” have too many holes to trust the thoroughly corrupt and incompetent puppets in the US Congress.

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    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    Great link, thank you annamaria. Few people grasp the extent of the Dulles brothers' legacy at CIA and especially the Dulles legacy at Germany's BND ... where Germany's intelligence agency is in possession of a 'captured' executive -
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  200. Actually, I wonder if they had a lot of spring in their back, or just an agile tongue: who will help me decide.

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  201. Mulegino1 says:
    @Authenticjazzman
    " and (raping) and looting"

    You are crazy , and talking shit.

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was "raping" of innocent women in war zones.

    No denying there were such rare and severely punished incidents, but such as wrought upon the civilian female population of Germany by the Russians : Did not happen.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet and pro Jazz musician.

    Of course nothing is comparable to what the Red Army (not necessarily Russians) did to the women of Germany, but the western Allies did their fair share of raping and looting. I suggest you check out the book: “What Soldiers Do.” Also, how do you explain the mass rape of the Italian women in the villages in the vicinity of Monte Cassino (the destruction of which is another example of Allied barbarism)?
    They were carried out by Moroccan troops encouraged to do so by the “Free French” General Jouin. The whole b.s. “Private Ryan” liberation narrative is crap. The only things liberated by the Anglo-Americans were the lives, real estate and possessions of Western and Central Europeans- from their rightful possessors.

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    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    The "Mass raping" of Italian women by French/Moroccan troops has nothing to do with American soldiers, who did NOT engage in such crimes.

    You are twisting facts and concocting implications to fit your viewpoint.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army vet, and pro Jazz artist.
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  202. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    I rather think Mulegino1 is fine with these things. His hero Codreanu was chanting "kill the Jews" long before the war began. That's why he won't answer. Being honest would alienate allies like you.

    Do you seriously think that I am ashamed or apologetic about having Codreanu as my avatar? Forget that. Codreanu was a true fighter for his people and ultimately paid for that with his life. That is more than most of the imbecilic lumpen prole infotainment consumers can say about those they admire, with their football jerseys evincing their admiration of athletes named Keishan, Devall or Tyrone.

    Who are your role models? Ellen De Generes? Kanye West? The cast of “The View”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    No, I think you're ashamed to say clearly that you think Nazis shooting dozens of Jews is all right with you under any circumstances, which is what Codreanu himself believed.

    So say it.
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  203. annamaria says:
    @Anon
    You're kidding, right?

    To bring down a building requires force.

    Force, according to the most basic principle in physics, is equal to mass times acceleration.

    Both a building and a plane have made. Only one has acceleration.

    Can't make it any more relevant for you. Sorry.

    “Both a building and a plane have made.” – ?!

    Have you considered the direction of the force? Why don’t you first read the experts — the physicists’, chemists’, architects’, and mechanical engineers’ reports — before presenting the “basic principle in physics?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Because unless you're a physicist, you should start with basic principles.
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  204. Rurik says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    1. For those here who suffer from HDSⒸ [Hitler Derangement Syndrome]: contemplate for a few minutes a pithy piece posted by Pat Lang a month ago: "Analysis is not advocacy." Those who can learn and grow from such an insight, will.

    2. re the extended/distended/distorted discussion re a comparison of Revisionist zionists and Hitler Youth:

    ” Ben-Gorian , Begin, Sharon, and Shamir were all terrorists. ”
    Yes, also Moshe Arens–all of the top guys. Some of them were in the Revisionist Zionist youth group Betar, inspired by Jabotinksy, who was their hero. Revisionist Zionism was not religious. The impetus for the Jewish state *used* the religion as a pretext for their militant state, without actually believing in it. Self-righteous bandits, actually. Some had emigrated to the USA, were educated here, enjoyed the advantages of US citizenship etc., then returned as young fanatics to Palestine (no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party). There they deliberately founded their camps outside the areas where Jews had already settled/bought land, I think they called it the Jerusalem Corridor. That is, the aim was to provoke and harass and terrorize established Palestinian villages, near water supplies, etc. The project for the new Jewish caliphate can in many respects be compared to the ISIS project for a new caliphate.
     
    especially the bolded statement that's caused such agita:

    "(no different in character from other fanatical youth groups such as the Hitler Youth or the Komsomol, youth organizations connected to a political party)"

    The only similarity I see is that both groups were young/teenagers. More appropriately, esp. in the case of Jabotinskyites, RZs were young-to slightly older adults, many with superior educations obtained in Germany, Austria, USA, Rome -- in the case of Vladimir Jabotinsky hisself: jabotinsky's friend and biographer, J. Schectman (iirc) recorded that young Vlad found and grounded his "spiritual being" in Rome, where he was an ardent admirer of Mussolini.

    While young Jabotinsky was reveling in the Russian literature of his home town of Odessa -- where he disdained most association with things Jewish -- then traveling to Rome to immerse himself in studies at universities there, future "Hitler Youth" were living in squalor, their bodies displaying rickets, intellectual deficiencies and other impacts of malnourishment in their youths, brought about by starvation blockades imposed on German civilians -- women and children -- by those guardians of civilization, the British, with a little help from Chaim Weizmann and his cohort who traded German children for a "Homeland for Jews in Palestine." (Jews have a long history of taking out their revenge fantasies on other people's children ***)

    I don't think "Hitler Youth" were "self-righteous bullies." Aware of their background and context (i.e. attempting to do analysis, not advocacy), I perceive them as teenagers whose childhood had presaged a bleak future; they were given a new lease on life, a new future, by organization, inspiration and discipline delivered by the NS government [there was a film clip of a German who had been a youth in the NSDAP era, who reflected in positive terms on his life as a Hitler youth. I can no longer find it via a google search. Perhaps Wally can help??]

    Die Fahne Hoch tells the story the Hitler Youth vested in; the lyrics contain a remembrance of their dead comrade, Horst Wessel; they valorize the "brown battalion" and "SS" who cleared the streets of what had been frequent riots involving "the Red Front" and reactionaries; the lyrics rejoice that the "days of freedom and of bread" were at hand; the German people were unified and had hope under the Stars and Stripes -- oops, I mean under the German battle flag with its swastika symbol. Maybe Avery or Skeptikal or even Wiz of Oz can correct my deluded impression, but I don't see any line or sentiment in Die Fahne Hoch that reflects hatred, or the intent to "dash infant's heads against the rocks" [see *** below], yet early in 1933, James Waterman Wise, son of Rabbi Stephen Wise, wrote and published a book titled Swastika; http://www.unz.org/Pub/WiseJames-1933 (full text https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=uva.x000417009;view=1up;seq=13 ) it opens with these words:

    "By decree issued in Berlin March 12, 1933, the Nazi banner together with that of the Old Empire was proclaimed the flag of Germany. Upon it was inscribed the Swastika -- symbolizing hatred of the Jew -- and in that sign the new German Government, with Hitler at its head, declared and is waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens."
     
    The first chapter is titled, The Advance Guard of Hate.

    Those opening words, penned sometime between March 12, 1933 and May, 1933, are even more interesting when juxtaposed with a conversation their author's father, Rabbi Stephen Wise, had with then-supreme court justice, ultra-zionist and hofjuden Louis Brandeis sometime in the first two weeks of February, 1933: Brandeis directed Wise that "All Jews must leave Germany . . . I urge that no Jew remain in Germany."
    "How shall all 587,000 Jews should be removed from Germany," replied Wise, incredulous.
    "I urge that no Jew remain in Germany," Brandeis repeated. [see "The Challenging Years," an autobiography, by Rabbi Stephen Wise].

    Makes good sense, you say: Jews in Germany were in grievous peril; of course the 'leader' of zionist Jews would direct that they flee that peril.

    BUT: (1) According the Breitman and Lichtman in "FDR and the Jews," in 1933, Jews in Germany were not only not in a perilous status but the situation of Jews in Germany was calmed by NSDAP: after a short period in which power was consolidated, "NSDAP quelled physical violence against Jews . . . No Jew was sent to a concentration camp until late in 1938."

    (2) According to Francis Nicosia in Zionism and anti-Semitism in Nazi Germany, Jewish zionists from Palestine (the Mossad el-Aliyeh bet) worked openly with Gestapo and other German government authorities to assist German Jews to migrate to Palestine. If Germans were so driven by Jew-hatred that they were "waging official and relentless war upon 600,000 of its own citizens," why were they not killing them on the spot?

    (3) The real threat to Jews was taking place in Poland, home to about 3 million Jews, as well as Russia: in the wake of turmoil in those East European locales, Jews from both of these states clamored to get to Germany. The narrative spun around Herschel Grynszpan reflects the tensions between Jews in Poland, the Polish government, and the quest to migrate to Germany.
    Why didn't Brandeis direct that Jews from Poland be aided to leave Poland and migrate to Palestine?

    (4) Waterman Wise's book calls the Swastika the "symbol of Jew hatred."
    Interesting factoid: According to Ernst ("Putzi") Hanfstaengl, Harvard grad, lunch companion to Franklin Roosevelt, financial backer of the enterprise that published "Mein Kampf" and angel to Adolf Hitler who encouraged him to write the book and later rescued him in the aftermath of the Beer hall Putsch, the "Heil, Hitler" chant was based on a Harvard football cheer, and the bold Red, White and Black Swastika banner that inspired so much fear in Waterman Wise bears an extremely close similarity to banners that dominated the Harvard campus in that era. Harvard's banner symbolizes Hatred of Jews? Who knew?

    (5) Finally, and perhaps most importantly, by combining readings from Vladimir Jabotinsky's staunch vision for the resettlement of "ALL diaspora Jews in Palestine," and Edwin Black's explanations of the dire economic situation of the zionist project in Palestine, exacerbated by British Mandate rules that only wealthy Jews could enter the land -- and only German Jews had that kind of wealth -- it's possible to understand a more try-to-reality version of Brandeis's directive that "All Jews must leave Germany." It was about the money (and the fanatic zionist ideology).



    ----
    *** Many people know the first part of Psalm 137:
    "By the streams of Babylon we sat and wept
    When we remembered Zion . . .
    If I forget thee o Zion may my right hand be forgotten . . ."

    But have you read the entire psalm to its last lines?

    "Daughter Babylon [Germany, Palestine, Iran], doomed to destruction,
    happy is the one who repays you
    according to what you have done to us.
    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks."


    In WWI, exactly what did Germany do to Jews that should demand "repayment"? What has Iran done to Jews?

    What's really significant, from my perspective, about Psalm 137 is the fact that it is the basis of Verdi's opera, Nabucco, and the iconic choral, "Va, pensiero," considered by many Italians to be an unofficial Italian 'national anthem.' Verdi subtly but completely reframed Psalm 137: Where the Hebrew psalmist says, "We will hang up our harps and NOT sing our songs," Verdi says:


    Arpa d'or dei fatidici vati,
    perché muta dal salice pendi?
    Le memorie nel petto raccendi,
    ci favella del tempo che fu!


    Golden harp of the prophetic wise men,
    why hang so silently from the willows?
    Rekindle the memories in our hearts,
    tell us about the times gone by!

    And while the Hebrew psalmist concludes his prayer --

    Happy is the one who seizes your infants
    and dashes them against the rocks.


    Verdi prays:

    o t'ispiri il Signore un concento
    che ne infonda al patire virtù!


    [Let us] be inspired by the Lord
    to fortify us to endure our suffering!


    See the essential difference?
    (Notice especially the word, virtù, and recognize that virtù -- manly courage -- was one of Machiavelli's key concepts. Machiavelli wrote that when a state had completely lost its communal virtu, the only possibility for redeeming the state was the creation of a temporary dictatorship willing to take the harsh measures necessary. As both Leo Strauss and Michael Ledeen state in their treatments of The Prince, Machiavelli's most admired model was Moses, who was willing to- and did- direct the killing of Jews in order to achieve the conquest of Canaan, the Promised land. )

    Go a step further: I know zip of musicology, but I'm aware of the power of Orpheus, i.e. the salvific power of the harp/music/song: the Hebrew psalmist says, "ain't no way we're going to let foreigners in on our salvific song, or the mystical power of our harp; no, we'll kill your children THEN we'll sing our song to rejoice in our triumph!

    Verdi, and my Italian forebears urge: Sing your songs NOW, when you are so utterly in need of encouragement toward the salvation of your homeland, "so beautiful yet so lost" --

    Oh, mia patria sì bella e perduta!
    Oh, membranza sì cara e fatal!




    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laSuOwGgVvQ

    But there's still one more aspect to a comparison of Psalm 137 to Va, pensiero:

    I discovered it through this duet -- Pavarotti and an Italian popular songster singing a (bastardized) version of Va, Pensiero:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6bt9RTMDvX4

    Zucchero claims his style is inspired by American R&B, but listen beyond the (obvious) gap in talent between him and Pavarotti, to the words they sing.

    Here's the Zucchero version of Verdi's version of Psalm 137:

    Reach the land find the place
    Where all children go
    Everynight after listening to this lullaby.

    There you'll find their heroes alive
    Protecting their innocence
    Bless them all 'cos their simple soul
    is so pure and wonderful.

    Va' pensiero sull'ali dorate
    Let this beautiful dream carry on
    For all night long.

    Lend them your golden wings
    Every fear will fly away
    Take them by the hand
    Help'em find an easy way

    Lead them back to the light, back to the light
    Where they once used to belong
    Where they can remain
    Children as long as they want.


    The Hebrew Psalmist says, "Kill their children!"

    Verdi says: "Inspire us with manly courage to reclaim our homeland, so beautiful and lost."

    Zuccharo sings: "Help 'em find an easy way . . . Where they can be children as long as they want."

    Draw your own conclusions.

    What do you wish for your children
    -- that they grow up sufficiently motivated to take revenge on other people's children for the (fantasized) wrongs committed against you?

    -- that they grow up steeped in the beauty and possibilities of their homeland, and courageous enough to bring about its revitalization?

    -- that they remain children as long as they want, living in a magical dream world ?

    Hey, on a roll here: Just started reading Dinesh D'Souza's paean to the Jewish holocaust narrative, "The Big Lie." (irony alert). Don't have it at my elbow just now, but I recall that D.D'S. included in his litany of Nazee offenses was the so-called NS national anthem, "Die Fahne Hoch."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2T0qDDo1Dk

    D.D'S. belittles the death of Horst Wessel and asserts that the song drafted by Goebbels is an anthem of hate.
    I don't get it.
    Compare Die Fahne Hoch to, say, Toby Keith's "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" --
    does it make you proud to belt out, "We'll put a boot in your eye, It's the American Way" ?

    Which category of "Va, Pensiero" and the salvific power of song does Toby Keith reflect?
    Which category of the salvific power of song does "Die Fahne Hoch" reflect?
    Why are Jews like ADL and their sycophants like Dinesh D'Souza so afraid of "Die Fahne Hoch?"

    http://www.unz.com/proberts/tyranny-at-nuremberg/

    good read on allied treachery and lies following WWII

    In 1940 Jackson was US Attorney General. He addressed federal prosecutors and warned them against “picking the man and then putting investigators to work, to pin some offense on him. It is in this realm—in which the prosecutor picks some person whom he dislikes or desires to embarrass, or selects some group of unpopular persons and then looks for an offense—that the greatest danger of abuse of prosecuting power lies. It is here that law enforcement becomes personal, and the real crime becomes that of being unpopular with the predominant or governing group, being attached to the wrong political views or being personally obnoxious to, or in the way of, the prosecutor himself.”

    I wonder if PCR was thinking in the back of his mind about Robert Mueller’s use of the law to destroy an unpopular person (and scores of millions of deplorables and irredeemables) and then looks for an ‘offense’ to convict them of?

    how much would you like to bet that they’d love to crush some testicles (like they did to the Nazi defendants) in order to get some confessions?

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  205. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Mulegino1
    Do you seriously think that I am ashamed or apologetic about having Codreanu as my avatar? Forget that. Codreanu was a true fighter for his people and ultimately paid for that with his life. That is more than most of the imbecilic lumpen prole infotainment consumers can say about those they admire, with their football jerseys evincing their admiration of athletes named Keishan, Devall or Tyrone.

    Who are your role models? Ellen De Generes? Kanye West? The cast of "The View"?

    No, I think you’re ashamed to say clearly that you think Nazis shooting dozens of Jews is all right with you under any circumstances, which is what Codreanu himself believed.

    So say it.

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    I think that you're ashamed to admit that the Allies burning hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to death in the great incendiary raids, deliberately strafing civilians and refugee columns, not to mention carrying out the greatest mass rape in recorded history is far worse in quantitative terms than the reprisal executions carried out on a scale lower by orders of magnitude in response to horrendous, vicious and in many cases sadistic partisan activity. Just say so.
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  206. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @annamaria
    "Both a building and a plane have made." - ?!

    Have you considered the direction of the force? Why don't you first read the experts -- the physicists', chemists', architects', and mechanical engineers' reports -- before presenting the "basic principle in physics?"

    Because unless you’re a physicist, you should start with basic principles.

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  207. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1
    You obviously do not understand the principles of ballistics or the Third Law of motion, which states that, for every reaction, there is an equal and opposite reaction. Therefore the alleged plane hitting the skyscraper framed with structural steel at 500 plus mph is no different than the steel framed skyscraper hitting the plane at 500 mph.

    Therefore, if you accept the official story, you must believe that what is an essence a hollow aluminum tube, and the fragile aluminum wings (whose tips are so delicate they cannot even carry fuel) can penetrate 1/2" of structural steel (1/4" plus 1/4" thick at the alleged point of impact) which is what the box column peripheral columns were composed of at that height. Anyone who knows anything about ballistics knows that this is total b.s. To illustrate this, consider an armor piercing round capable of penetrating 1/2" of steel plating - say a 7.56 x54R. It has a hardened, sharp tip, a hardened alloy jacket and a solid steel core. Compare this to the nose and fuselage of a Boeing 767, which can be easily damaged by colliding with birds in flight, birds, which to my knowledge, are not composed of anything like structural steel. The official legend is merely a ridiculous fairy tale to present to lobotomized infotainment consumers who are absorbed in sports and entertainment and who never ask questions about anything important.

    A body in motion – any body has kinetic energy equal to 1/2 times it’s mass times it’s velocity squared. 100 tons of an airplane traveling at 500 miles an hours is a lot of kinetic energy. This energy damages the supports by bending them, knocking holes in them, and this energy is converted to heat energy when it compresses the metal it contacts and when it compresses itself.

    If you knew about the armor piercing bullets you pretend to, you would know that they penetrate the steel by compressing it to the point that it becomes molten. The back part of the bullet is still moving forward and pushes the molten steel out of the way. This same conversion of kinetic energy to heat is going on when the aircraft slams into the major structural components of the building. Of course, with such a large cross-sectional area, the heat generated isn’t enough to melt steel by itself but that heat is added to the heat generated by the burning jet fuel.

    It doesn’t matter if the material penetrating the steel was made out of wood or tungsten as long as the projectile has the necessary energy to compress the steel to a molten state. It would just have to go extremely fast for a piece of wood to penetrate steel as compared to tungsten. Where the material would come into the discussion is that a denser material would have a smaller cross section and the pressure at the impact point would be much higher for the same mass. The idea that an airplane weighing 100 tons going 500 miles an hour should disintegrate at the side of the building without penetration, cartoon style, is something only somebody who has never taken any physics at any level could believe.

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  208. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1
    Yes, as is proved by the collision of a semi truck with a concrete wall. Since the semi-truck is in motion and the concrete wall is at rest, the semi-truck will simply obliterate the wall and pass through unscathed. Good grief! Have you ever seen what a mere collision with a bird in flight at cruising speed can do to the nose or fuselage of a 767? Do you seriously believe that the gigantic peripheral columns made of structural steel and designed to withstand hurricane winds would simply give way to a hollow aluminum tube? Why don't the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?

    Why don’t the ammunition manufacturers make armor piercing ammunition with hollow aluminum bullets, since they would be much lighter and have a greater velocity with respect to their target?

    Take a look at reloading tables. Lighter bullets take more powder and have higher velocity but they lose power quicker. Even a solid aluminum bullet would require so much powder that it could not be put in a typical cartridge that a soldier could carry. In addition, after a few hundreds yards it would have lost so much energy that it would be useless in combat.

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  209. MarkinLA says:
    @Sparkon

    You do realize that the top portion of the building is coming down and it does hit a part of the building still intact or are you going to disbelieve that?
     
    https://truthandshadows.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/wtc-1-cropped.jpg

    Yes, I do not believe it.

    In the photo, the top 30-some floors of the south tower are still intact, but they have disassociated themselves from the rest of the building, and have been rotated in relationship to it.

    For this to happen, the building's central core must have been severed, and some additional kicker force applied to it above the break, so that the central core remaining in the top portion is out of alignment with the central core in the remainder of the structure.

    It is said that each of the towers weighed 500,000 tons, while a fully fueled 767-200's max gross take-off weight was 157 tons.

    Because the WTC towers' construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    The method of construction makes it difficult to calculate the weight of that ~30-floor segment of WTC 2, except to say it is about 25% of the building's height, and must have weighed more than 50,000 but less than 125,000 tons.

    Therefore, some very powerful force had to be applied to the top portion of the building seen tilting over in the photograph to get the structure into that position, and in the absence of some counter-force to stop it, the rotation should have continued.

    Do you think that the 157 ton airplane -- even at the alleged 500 mph -- had enough energy to sever the building's central core, and provide the rotational force to top 30 floors, after using a lot of energy to slice through the building's cage-like steel box column exterior?

    I don't think the airplane could do that.

    It is certainly possible that powerful charges could sever the central core of the twin towers in as many places as desired, with additional kicker charges to nudge these sections aside so that the entire structure falls into its own footprint, but only a relatively slight displacement of the central core would be necessary to ensure that result, while the photo depicts a much more radical displacement of the building's entire top, which would have required a much more powerful -- but entirely unnecessary -- charge.

    Of course it is conceivable that these images are fake, generated with CGI. Certainly, the airplane videos must be.

    Because the WTC towers’ construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    They can if they are moving downward like a pile driver.

    One floor does not support the entire weight of the building above the floor. They are attached to the main superstructure which supports the weight of all the floors. However, the attachment points for each floor only support the weight of a floor and the necessary safety margin. The force of the top of the building coming down on an intact floor like a pile driver is enough to sever the attachment points of that floor. The pile driver has just added more mass to itself and it’s velocity was not slowed enough to compensate so it has even more energy as it shears off floor after floor until the whole building is down.

    Why then isn’t the superstructure still standing? Because this huge mass of I beams, cement, and other debris pushing outward in all directions has pushed, twisted, and squashed it in into numerous failure modes.

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    • Replies: @Sparkon
    No, the lighter top floors cannot crush the much heavier and stronger lower floors, no matter how furiously you wave your hands.

    Recall that those upper 30 floors had been sitting there peacefully for 30 years without crushing anything. Even disconnected from the rest of the building, the only force acting on the upper section is gravity, same as it was before, so this entire conjecture is complete nonsense.

    https://911planeshoax.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/perimeter-box-coulmns1.png
    Steel box columns 2.5" thick at the bottom, 0.25" near the top. The "pile driver" is rubbish.

    And anyway, before you can have your fanciful lightweight pile driver, you've got to explain how the top of WTC 2 got disconnected from the rest of the building in the first place, as we see in the image I posted upstream, in my #145.

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-tale-of-the-brothers-awan/#comment-1964605

    That involved not only cutting the central core, but also severing most if not all of the 244 exterior 14" steel box columns.

    Even a 767 with cutting edge wings going 500 mph -- as fast as a speeding BB -- wouldn't be able to swing those razor sharp magic flying slicers around to get all the perimeter columns, in addition to the massive central core, and just cut off the entire top of the building like that, would it?

    Armor piercing rounds are made of the hardest materials available, including DU, and they are propelled to very high speeds with muzzle velocity approaching 4,000 mph, or 5,600 fps.

    500 mph is 733 fps, BB gun velocity. So it's a soft metal, not going that fast, encountering hard steel.

    The target consisted of a block of reinforced concrete 7 m square and 3.66 m thick with a total mass of 469 tons (almost 25 times the weight of the military jet). At impact a portion of each wing and tail was sheared off. The remainder of the aircraft was completely destroyed during the impact. Pieces were dispersed over a large area; the dispersion of the water which was to simulate the kerosene, however, was relatively small. Due to the fact that the reinforced concrete wall was mounted on top of an airbearing platform, it was only slightly damaged – with concrete spalling at the front face of the target. The penetration depth caused by the engines was 60 mm and that caused by the fuselage was 20 mm.
     
    https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/aircraft-impact-damage-on-movable-concrete-block-vs-non-movable-concrete-block.495223/

    So the engines penetrated to a depth of ~2.5", the fuselage -- substantially less. Of course, the jet-sled Phantom didn't have the steak knife wings, so there's that.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    He is just one of the many truthers who are simply incapable of understanding such clear explanation.. Whether it has anything to do with the religious nature of their beliefs would be interesting to investigate. No doubt they wouldn't have been easily put off belief in prophets ascending into heaven.
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  210. MarkinLA says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    The Soviets committed war crimes and resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare from the very beginning of Barbarossa, the fact that these particular shootings took place three months into the war is irrelevant.

    And don't be asinine, no one is "ok" with these kinds of things. Rational people can try to understand the overall context of historical events without having to resort to emotionalism, religious conviction, etc.

    resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare

    What is illegal about it, there was no peace treaty. In addition, the German were brutal to the Slavs since they didn’t think it would matter.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Illegal according to the conventions of war at the time re. non-uniformed combatants; reprisal shootings for such acts were also carried out by the British and Americans in Italy. Not that we really need to discuss how the British historically dealt with resistance in India and Africa to their empire, do we?
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  211. glitch says:

    How did a thread about the brothers Awan get turned into holocaust arguminutia?

    Classic thread jack guys, but seriously over done.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Probably because the Awan caper is part of an overall milieu of a Jewish ruling class in the US, and the holocaust as an official orthodoxy is obviously part of that power structure.
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  212. @MarkinLA
    resorted to (illegal) partisan warfare

    What is illegal about it, there was no peace treaty. In addition, the German were brutal to the Slavs since they didn't think it would matter.

    Illegal according to the conventions of war at the time re. non-uniformed combatants; reprisal shootings for such acts were also carried out by the British and Americans in Italy. Not that we really need to discuss how the British historically dealt with resistance in India and Africa to their empire, do we?

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  213. @glitch
    How did a thread about the brothers Awan get turned into holocaust arguminutia?

    Classic thread jack guys, but seriously over done.

    Probably because the Awan caper is part of an overall milieu of a Jewish ruling class in the US, and the holocaust as an official orthodoxy is obviously part of that power structure.

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  214. @Authenticjazzman
    " and (raping) and looting"

    You are crazy , and talking shit.

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was "raping" of innocent women in war zones.

    No denying there were such rare and severely punished incidents, but such as wrought upon the civilian female population of Germany by the Russians : Did not happen.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" Society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet and pro Jazz musician.

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was “raping” of innocent women in war zones.

    Germany’s ‘brown babies’ go in search of their American fathers: The extraordinary story of thousands of wartime children born to German mothers and black GIs
    By Daily Mail Reporter
    21 November 2011

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064446/Germanys-brown-babies-search-American-fathers.html#ixzz4pawfy4l8

    ‘Brown babies’ in postwar Europe : the Italian case

    PATRIARCA, Silvana

    http://cadmus.eui.eu/handle/1814/41165

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    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    These "brown babies", and white american fathered babies after the war in Germany, Italy, GB, France, were most definitely not the result of "Rape", rather the liasons between GIs and multitudes of european women who were trying to make it to the US as a so-called war-brides.

    In war ravished Europe the conditions were horrid and the big dream for the impoverished populations was to somehow make it to the US, and one of the avenues was to find a GI and cross the Atlantic as a "war-bride", however many of the relationships dissipated due to the tough demands of military life, and the girls were left behind with their Kids, who were by the way entitled to US citizenship, which many of these now adults hold.

    I was stationed in post-war Germany and France and there most certainly was no talk of "Rape" having been the cause of the manifestation of of these american-fathered children.
    A GI convicted of rape could have been sentenced to death.

    Oh Yeah just why the hell would the now adult "brown-babies" go searching for the the guys who supposedly "Raped" their mother? This all pure nonsense and you know it yourself.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society members since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.
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  215. Sparkon says:
    @MarkinLA
    Because the WTC towers’ construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    They can if they are moving downward like a pile driver.

    One floor does not support the entire weight of the building above the floor. They are attached to the main superstructure which supports the weight of all the floors. However, the attachment points for each floor only support the weight of a floor and the necessary safety margin. The force of the top of the building coming down on an intact floor like a pile driver is enough to sever the attachment points of that floor. The pile driver has just added more mass to itself and it's velocity was not slowed enough to compensate so it has even more energy as it shears off floor after floor until the whole building is down.

    Why then isn't the superstructure still standing? Because this huge mass of I beams, cement, and other debris pushing outward in all directions has pushed, twisted, and squashed it in into numerous failure modes.

    No, the lighter top floors cannot crush the much heavier and stronger lower floors, no matter how furiously you wave your hands.

    Recall that those upper 30 floors had been sitting there peacefully for 30 years without crushing anything. Even disconnected from the rest of the building, the only force acting on the upper section is gravity, same as it was before, so this entire conjecture is complete nonsense.


    Steel box columns 2.5″ thick at the bottom, 0.25″ near the top. The “pile driver” is rubbish.

    And anyway, before you can have your fanciful lightweight pile driver, you’ve got to explain how the top of WTC 2 got disconnected from the rest of the building in the first place, as we see in the image I posted upstream, in my #145.

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-tale-of-the-brothers-awan/#comment-1964605

    That involved not only cutting the central core, but also severing most if not all of the 244 exterior 14″ steel box columns.

    Even a 767 with cutting edge wings going 500 mph — as fast as a speeding BB — wouldn’t be able to swing those razor sharp magic flying slicers around to get all the perimeter columns, in addition to the massive central core, and just cut off the entire top of the building like that, would it?

    Armor piercing rounds are made of the hardest materials available, including DU, and they are propelled to very high speeds with muzzle velocity approaching 4,000 mph, or 5,600 fps.

    500 mph is 733 fps, BB gun velocity. So it’s a soft metal, not going that fast, encountering hard steel.

    The target consisted of a block of reinforced concrete 7 m square and 3.66 m thick with a total mass of 469 tons (almost 25 times the weight of the military jet). At impact a portion of each wing and tail was sheared off. The remainder of the aircraft was completely destroyed during the impact. Pieces were dispersed over a large area; the dispersion of the water which was to simulate the kerosene, however, was relatively small. Due to the fact that the reinforced concrete wall was mounted on top of an airbearing platform, it was only slightly damaged – with concrete spalling at the front face of the target. The penetration depth caused by the engines was 60 mm and that caused by the fuselage was 20 mm.

    https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/aircraft-impact-damage-on-movable-concrete-block-vs-non-movable-concrete-block.495223/

    So the engines penetrated to a depth of ~2.5″, the fuselage — substantially less. Of course, the jet-sled Phantom didn’t have the steak knife wings, so there’s that.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You only seem to know only how to be simply and obviously wrong in many words. The idea that the top of the building had to be disconnected from the lower floors to achieve destructive momentum under gravity is sbsurd. There simply had to be sufficient weakening of support to allow the weight of the upper floors above to overcome any remaining weak structural resistance where fire had been weakening the steel.

    Your blather about light weight upper stories and heavier solider lower stories is just irrlevant crap which you have no chance of supporting with facts so I wonder if it is even worth inviting you to consuder the killer argument against the nonsense you have just spouted. That is the implications of WTC 2 comung down much sooner after the impact of the plane under the weight of 24 to 32 floors than WTC 1 under the werght of 11 to 15 floors.
    , @MarkinLA
    Armor piercing rounds are made of the hardest materials available, including DU, and they are propelled to very high speeds with muzzle velocity approaching 4,000 mph, or 5,600 fps.

    Total BS. NO armor piercing bullet for a rifle carried by soldiers goes faster than 3300 fps for a M-16 and 2800 fps for a .308 rifle.

    The superstructure is carrying the weight of the all the floors which are only connected to it with enough material to carry the weight of the floor plus a safety margin. Those connection points are sheared off by the mass that is coming down.

    Comparing a small military jet hitting concrete to a 100 ton airliner hitting a building is a dumb comparison.
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  216. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I hate to have to repeat myself — really I do — but as the top floors are falling, they are gaining mass (due to the increased amount of falling material) and acceleration (9.8 m per s^2), thus adding significant force as they fall.

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  217. @annamaria
    It is interesting that Allen Dulles legacy is his subversive and considerable anti-democratic and pro-fascism influence which, in the long run, has profoundly hurt the US. It does make some minor justice to the legacy of Dulles that Imran Awan was arrested at the Dulles airport. The history of ziocon influence on the US policies is inseparable from the history of Dulles' CIA. The incompetence of the CIA is traced to Dulles as well because of his cult unaccountability.
    https://theintercept.com/2015/11/02/the-deepest-state-the-safari-club-allen-dulles-and-the-devils-chessboard/
    Dulles' dictum, “Democracy only works if the so-called intelligent people make it work. You can’t sit back and let democracy run itself,” has been taken in earnest by the US deciders -- who did not "sit" indeed. As a result, we have a pre-nuclear-war situation, the devastating rule of banksters and war-profiteers, and the voiceless US citizenry (see single-payer bill killed in California by the Democrats). The official reports on the JFK murder and on the 9/11 "event" have too many holes to trust the thoroughly corrupt and incompetent puppets in the US Congress.

    Great link, thank you annamaria. Few people grasp the extent of the Dulles brothers’ legacy at CIA and especially the Dulles legacy at Germany’s BND … where Germany’s intelligence agency is in possession of a ‘captured’ executive -

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    From Paul Craig Roberts: "Here is David Irving’s account of his arrest, trial, and imprisonment in Austria. His conviction was overturned by a higher court, and he was released. http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Banged/up.pdf

    "On December 5, 1975, while researching Hitler’s War, I had asked Professor Hilberg, “Is there any acceptable evidence linking Hitler himself with the order to exterminate European Jews?” I added that there was of course enough evidence linking Hitler with the killing of Russian Jews and with the deportation of the European Jews to the East.
    Professor Hilberg [Austrian-born Jewish-American political scientist and historian] replied that he too now believed there was no such Hitler extermination order: “Possibly, the destruction of the Jews was so drastic that it could only have occurred in an organic, evolutionary process, from vagueness to specify city, and in a very real administrative sense, from the bottom up."
    ---------------------------
    "On January 13, 1993 a Munich court fines me thirty thousand marks, around $25,000, for stating that the gas chamber shown to tourists at Auschwitz, the Nazi “death camp,” is a post-war fake. Poland has since confirmed that it was built in 1948. Despite this, countries around the world have used this “conviction”.

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  218. @SolontoCroesus

    If there is one thing American soldiers were not guilty of that is/was “raping” of innocent women in war zones.
     
    Germany's 'brown babies' go in search of their American fathers: The extraordinary story of thousands of wartime children born to German mothers and black GIs
    By Daily Mail Reporter
    21 November 2011
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2064446/Germanys-brown-babies-search-American-fathers.html#ixzz4pawfy4l8

    'Brown babies' in postwar Europe : the Italian case
     
    PATRIARCA, Silvana
    http://cadmus.eui.eu/handle/1814/41165

    These “brown babies”, and white american fathered babies after the war in Germany, Italy, GB, France, were most definitely not the result of “Rape”, rather the liasons between GIs and multitudes of european women who were trying to make it to the US as a so-called war-brides.

    In war ravished Europe the conditions were horrid and the big dream for the impoverished populations was to somehow make it to the US, and one of the avenues was to find a GI and cross the Atlantic as a “war-bride”, however many of the relationships dissipated due to the tough demands of military life, and the girls were left behind with their Kids, who were by the way entitled to US citizenship, which many of these now adults hold.

    I was stationed in post-war Germany and France and there most certainly was no talk of “Rape” having been the cause of the manifestation of of these american-fathered children.
    A GI convicted of rape could have been sentenced to death.

    Oh Yeah just why the hell would the now adult “brown-babies” go searching for the the guys who supposedly “Raped” their mother? This all pure nonsense and you know it yourself.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society members since 1973, airborne qualified US Army Vet, and pro jazz musician.

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  219. @Mulegino1
    Of course nothing is comparable to what the Red Army (not necessarily Russians) did to the women of Germany, but the western Allies did their fair share of raping and looting. I suggest you check out the book: "What Soldiers Do." Also, how do you explain the mass rape of the Italian women in the villages in the vicinity of Monte Cassino (the destruction of which is another example of Allied barbarism)?
    They were carried out by Moroccan troops encouraged to do so by the "Free French" General Jouin. The whole b.s. "Private Ryan" liberation narrative is crap. The only things liberated by the Anglo-Americans were the lives, real estate and possessions of Western and Central Europeans- from their rightful possessors.

    The “Mass raping” of Italian women by French/Moroccan troops has nothing to do with American soldiers, who did NOT engage in such crimes.

    You are twisting facts and concocting implications to fit your viewpoint.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army vet, and pro Jazz artist.

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  220. Skeptikal says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Hilberg does. At any rate the actual official number tends to be quite fluid, whatever relative component is needed to get to the magical total number of 6M.

    Yes, 2 million of the 4 million total are thought to have been the victims of Einsatztkommandos operating in occupied countries.
    This figure is used by Louis Snyder, Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, which I think is considered a pretty good source. He says, “These formations [Einsatzgruppen, Einsatzkommandos, Einsatztruppen] were given the task of supervising the Final Solution of the Jewish problem by extermination. Together with other elements of hte Security Police, they were responsible for the deaths of 2 million of the estimated 6 million Jews killed.”

    However he also says that they were “charged with destroying Communists, partisans, saboteurs, and Jews on the eastern front.”

    They also participated in wiping out whole villages.
    Wikipedia has this:
    “Under the direction of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler and the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, the Einsatzgruppen operated in territories occupied by the German armed forces following the invasion of Poland in September 1939 and Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union) launched from occupied Poland in June 1941. The Einsatzgruppen worked hand-in-hand with the Orpo Police Battalions on the Eastern Front to carry out operations ranging from the murder of a few people to operations which lasted over two or more days, such as the massacre at Babi Yar with 33,771 Jews killed in two days, and the Rumbula massacre (with about 25,000 killed in two days of shooting). As ordered by Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, the Wehrmacht cooperated with the Einsatzgruppen and provided logistical support for their operations. Historian Raul Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen and related auxiliary troops killed more than two million people, including 1.3 million Jews. The total number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust is estimated at 5.5 to 6 million people.”

    With such numbers it wouldn’t take long to add up to 400,000.
    Not to forget, the Einsatzgruppen were active before the extermination camps were up and running. The primary locus for Einsatzgruppen activities were Poland and Ukraine (Babi Yar was the extermiantion of the ca. 37,000 Jews of Kiev). Ukraine was to be cleared of population except for remaining slave labor, so a lot of Ukrainians were victims of the Einsatzkommandos.

    In a way, it is no wonder the Ukrainians of today seem to be sort of demented. It is really inconceivable what the parents and families of current adults experienced in their lives. As we know, trauma is not banished with death but lives on in various forms in the children of the traumatized.

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    • Replies: @Mulegino1
    I am not familiar with the particulars of the Rumbula massacre, but the tale of 33,000 plus Jews at Babi Yar appears to be a complete hoax. When the German Army occupied Kiev, there were detonations of bombs which had been planted in advance and which killed dozens of the occupation forces. There were some reprisal shootings for these illegal partisan actions, but nothing like 33,000.

    The whole narrative of Babi Yar is ridiculous: the story goes that the Germans marched the Jews to the ravine, shot them down, buried them and then dug up the bodies during the infamous "Aktion 1005" and burned all of the bodies to ashes on tombstones from a Jewish cemetery. The whole thing is nonsense. Such a massive operation would have required considerable earth moving equipment, hundreds of thousands of pounds of dried, cured firewood and the additional necessity of disposing of the cremated remains. Yet, aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of the ravine in the immediate aftermath of the alleged massive cremation operations show nothing; no major topographical disturbances no traces of the huge amount of wood ash, no mounds of earth, and no access roads into the ravine. Like many of the grossly exaggerated claims of the Holohoax Industry, Babi Yar is just another free invention of Soviet propaganda.

    Nobody questions the fact that there were reprisal shootings carried out by the Einsatzgruppen or that the anti-partisan activity fully reciprocated the brutal (and in many instances sadistic and cruel) actions of the partisans, but it is likely that the numbers of victims of the alleged "Holocaust by bullets" has been exaggerated a hundred fold.
    , @Authenticjazzman
    " As we know, trauma is not banished with death but lives on in various forms in the children of the traumatized"

    Just who the hell is "We" : I don't identify with this theory because it is simply not true, although it is another obnoxious and false concept propagated by the worst BS artists on this planet : Shrinks : Psychiatrists and Psychologists.

    Children of "Traumatized" parents, if removed from the scene or conditions or cause of their parent's trauma, bear no remnants whatsoever of their parents Trauma.

    Authenticjazzman "Mensa" society member since 1973, airborne qualified US Army vet and pro Jazz artist.
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  221. @Anon
    By the way, the sum total of physics training I've had is a year of physics in high school, some thirty years ago. But I do know enough to remember the core equation at the basis of physics, which is

    f = m * a

    where f=force, m=mass, and a=acceleration.

    So it absolutely freaking matter which body is in motion and which isn't when a collision happens.

    You are right of course that it may matter whuch is in motion but you would have to get a figure for acceleration for the plane which was not apporeciably accelerating when it struck. Tentatively I would concoct a fantastically high figure for acceleration out of the rate of decdleration calculated from where the plane’s centre of mass was at the moment it hit to where it was in one second or whatever it was after it hit and had stopped. But maybe kinetic eñergy is more to ths point. The formula KE= 1/2 mv^2 where v is velocity makes your point very well since the building had no kinetic energy and the plane, because its high velocity is squares, has a great deal. The steel tube upright members which were on the outside edge of the buidings to maximise lettable space provided what may be regarded as friction to slow down the aircraft and generate enormous heat.

    BTW if any of the truthers are still with us who scoffed at some relatively recent research and theorising which suggested the explosive qualities of aluminium at high temperature, at least in the presence of water, may have been responsible for some sound of explosion claimed to be heard by firemen, I invite them to consider some long obfuscated historical facts. First, there is no evidence that there is no evidence that the second explosion which hastened the sinking of the Lusitania was caused by a torpedo Second, there is strong evidence that it was caused by the explosion of aluminium powder which the ship was carrying (and maybe might have made the sinking justifiable if the Germans had known about it, which they obviously didn’t).

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  222. @Sparkon
    No, the lighter top floors cannot crush the much heavier and stronger lower floors, no matter how furiously you wave your hands.

    Recall that those upper 30 floors had been sitting there peacefully for 30 years without crushing anything. Even disconnected from the rest of the building, the only force acting on the upper section is gravity, same as it was before, so this entire conjecture is complete nonsense.

    https://911planeshoax.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/perimeter-box-coulmns1.png
    Steel box columns 2.5" thick at the bottom, 0.25" near the top. The "pile driver" is rubbish.

    And anyway, before you can have your fanciful lightweight pile driver, you've got to explain how the top of WTC 2 got disconnected from the rest of the building in the first place, as we see in the image I posted upstream, in my #145.

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/the-tale-of-the-brothers-awan/#comment-1964605

    That involved not only cutting the central core, but also severing most if not all of the 244 exterior 14" steel box columns.

    Even a 767 with cutting edge wings going 500 mph -- as fast as a speeding BB -- wouldn't be able to swing those razor sharp magic flying slicers around to get all the perimeter columns, in addition to the massive central core, and just cut off the entire top of the building like that, would it?

    Armor piercing rounds are made of the hardest materials available, including DU, and they are propelled to very high speeds with muzzle velocity approaching 4,000 mph, or 5,600 fps.

    500 mph is 733 fps, BB gun velocity. So it's a soft metal, not going that fast, encountering hard steel.

    The target consisted of a block of reinforced concrete 7 m square and 3.66 m thick with a total mass of 469 tons (almost 25 times the weight of the military jet). At impact a portion of each wing and tail was sheared off. The remainder of the aircraft was completely destroyed during the impact. Pieces were dispersed over a large area; the dispersion of the water which was to simulate the kerosene, however, was relatively small. Due to the fact that the reinforced concrete wall was mounted on top of an airbearing platform, it was only slightly damaged – with concrete spalling at the front face of the target. The penetration depth caused by the engines was 60 mm and that caused by the fuselage was 20 mm.
     
    https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/aircraft-impact-damage-on-movable-concrete-block-vs-non-movable-concrete-block.495223/

    So the engines penetrated to a depth of ~2.5", the fuselage -- substantially less. Of course, the jet-sled Phantom didn't have the steak knife wings, so there's that.

    You only seem to know only how to be simply and obviously wrong in many words. The idea that the top of the building had to be disconnected from the lower floors to achieve destructive momentum under gravity is sbsurd. There simply had to be sufficient weakening of support to allow the weight of the upper floors above to overcome any remaining weak structural resistance where fire had been weakening the steel.

    Your blather about light weight upper stories and heavier solider lower stories is just irrlevant crap which you have no chance of supporting with facts so I wonder if it is even worth inviting you to consuder the killer argument against the nonsense you have just spouted. That is the implications of WTC 2 comung down much sooner after the impact of the plane under the weight of 24 to 32 floors than WTC 1 under the werght of 11 to 15 floors.

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  223. @MarkinLA
    Because the WTC towers’ construction was lighter toward the top, and much more massive toward the ground, there is no way that the lighter upper floors could possibly crush the much stronger lower floors.

    They can if they are moving downward like a pile driver.

    One floor does not support the entire weight of the building above the floor. They are attached to the main superstructure which supports the weight of all the floors. However, the attachment points for each floor only support the weight of a floor and the necessary safety margin. The force of the top of the building coming down on an intact floor like a pile driver is enough to sever the attachment points of that floor. The pile driver has just added more mass to itself and it's velocity was not slowed enough to compensate so it has even more energy as it shears off floor after floor until the whole building is down.

    Why then isn't the superstructure still standing? Because this huge mass of I beams, cement, and other debris pushing outward in all directions has pushed, twisted, and squashed it in into numerous failure modes.

    He is just one of the many truthers who are simply incapable of understanding such clear explanation.. Whether it has anything to do with the religious nature of their beliefs would be interesting to investigate. No doubt they wouldn’t have been easily put off belief in prophets ascending into heaven.

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  224. annamaria says:
    @Ronald Thomas West
    Great link, thank you annamaria. Few people grasp the extent of the Dulles brothers' legacy at CIA and especially the Dulles legacy at Germany's BND ... where Germany's intelligence agency is in possession of a 'captured' executive -

    From Paul Craig Roberts: “Here is David Irving’s account of his arrest, trial, and imprisonment in Austria. His conviction was overturned by a higher court, and he was released. http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Banged/up.pdf

    “On December 5, 1975, while researching Hitler’s War, I had asked Professor Hilberg, “Is there any acceptable evidence linking Hitler himself with the order to exterminate European Jews?” I added that there was of course enough evidence linking Hitler with the killing of Russian Jews and with the deportation of the European Jews to the East.
    Professor Hilberg [Austrian-born Jewish-American political scientist and historian] replied that he too now believed there was no such Hitler extermination order: “Possibly, the destruction of the Jews was so drastic that it could only have occurred in an organic, evolutionary process, from vagueness to specify city, and in a very real administrative sense, from the bottom up.”
    —————————
    “On January 13, 1993 a Munich court fines me thirty thousand marks, around $25,000, for stating that the gas chamber shown to tourists at Auschwitz, the Nazi “death camp,” is a post-war fake. Poland has since confirmed that it was built in 1948. Despite this, countries around the world have used this “conviction”.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Indeed, the glaring lack of any kind of forensic or documentary evidence to support the very striking claims of the official narrative is precisely why Hilberg claims that Nazi officials essentially employed telepathy (a "meeting of the minds") to carry out genocide. That planners during total war would be able to conduct operations this way is a little unbelievable, to put it mildly.
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  225. @annamaria
    From Paul Craig Roberts: "Here is David Irving’s account of his arrest, trial, and imprisonment in Austria. His conviction was overturned by a higher court, and he was released. http://www.fpp.co.uk/books/Banged/up.pdf

    "On December 5, 1975, while researching Hitler’s War, I had asked Professor Hilberg, “Is there any acceptable evidence linking Hitler himself with the order to exterminate European Jews?” I added that there was of course enough evidence linking Hitler with the killing of Russian Jews and with the deportation of the European Jews to the East.
    Professor Hilberg [Austrian-born Jewish-American political scientist and historian] replied that he too now believed there was no such Hitler extermination order: “Possibly, the destruction of the Jews was so drastic that it could only have occurred in an organic, evolutionary process, from vagueness to specify city, and in a very real administrative sense, from the bottom up."
    ---------------------------
    "On January 13, 1993 a Munich court fines me thirty thousand marks, around $25,000, for stating that the gas chamber shown to tourists at Auschwitz, the Nazi “death camp,” is a post-war fake. Poland has since confirmed that it was built in 1948. Despite this, countries around the world have used this “conviction”.

    Indeed, the glaring lack of any kind of forensic or documentary evidence to support the very striking claims of the official narrative is precisely why Hilberg claims that Nazi officials essentially employed telepathy (a “meeting of the minds”) to carry out genocide. That planners during total war would be able to conduct operations this way is a little unbelievable, to put it mildly.

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  226. Mulegino1 says:
    @Skeptikal
    Yes, 2 million of the 4 million total are thought to have been the victims of Einsatztkommandos operating in occupied countries.
    This figure is used by Louis Snyder, Encyclopedia of the Third Reich, which I think is considered a pretty good source. He says, "These formations [Einsatzgruppen, Einsatzkommandos, Einsatztruppen] were given the task of supervising the Final Solution of the Jewish problem by extermination. Together with other elements of hte Security Police, they were responsible for the deaths of 2 million of the estimated 6 million Jews killed."

    However he also says that they were "charged with destroying Communists, partisans, saboteurs, and Jews on the eastern front."

    They also participated in wiping out whole villages.
    Wikipedia has this:
    "Under the direction of Reichsführer-SS Heinrich Himmler and the supervision of SS-Obergruppenführer Reinhard Heydrich, the Einsatzgruppen operated in territories occupied by the German armed forces following the invasion of Poland in September 1939 and Operation Barbarossa (the invasion of the Soviet Union) launched from occupied Poland in June 1941. The Einsatzgruppen worked hand-in-hand with the Orpo Police Battalions on the Eastern Front to carry out operations ranging from the murder of a few people to operations which lasted over two or more days, such as the massacre at Babi Yar with 33,771 Jews killed in two days, and the Rumbula massacre (with about 25,000 killed in two days of shooting). As ordered by Nazi leader Adolf Hitler, the Wehrmacht cooperated with the Einsatzgruppen and provided logistical support for their operations. Historian Raul Hilberg estimates that between 1941 and 1945 the Einsatzgruppen and related auxiliary troops killed more than two million people, including 1.3 million Jews. The total number of Jews murdered during the Holocaust is estimated at 5.5 to 6 million people."

    With such numbers it wouldn't take long to add up to 400,000.
    Not to forget, the Einsatzgruppen were active before the extermination camps were up and running. The primary locus for Einsatzgruppen activities were Poland and Ukraine (Babi Yar was the extermiantion of the ca. 37,000 Jews of Kiev). Ukraine was to be cleared of population except for remaining slave labor, so a lot of Ukrainians were victims of the Einsatzkommandos.

    In a way, it is no wonder the Ukrainians of today seem to be sort of demented. It is really inconceivable what the parents and families of current adults experienced in their lives. As we know, trauma is not banished with death but lives on in various forms in the children of the traumatized.

    I am not familiar with the particulars of the Rumbula massacre, but the tale of 33,000 plus Jews at Babi Yar appears to be a complete hoax. When the German Army occupied Kiev, there were detonations of bombs which had been planted in advance and which killed dozens of the occupation forces. There were some reprisal shootings for these illegal partisan actions, but nothing like 33,000.

    The whole narrative of Babi Yar is ridiculous: the story goes that the Germans marched the Jews to the ravine, shot them down, buried them and then dug up the bodies during the infamous “Aktion 1005″ and burned all of the bodies to ashes on tombstones from a Jewish cemetery. The whole thing is nonsense. Such a massive operation would have required considerable earth moving equipment, hundreds of thousands of pounds of dried, cured firewood and the additional necessity of disposing of the cremated remains. Yet, aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of the ravine in the immediate aftermath of the alleged massive cremation operations show nothing; no major topographical disturbances no traces of the huge amount of wood ash, no mounds of earth, and no access roads into the ravine. Like many of the grossly exaggerated claims of the Holohoax Industry, Babi Yar is just another free invention of Soviet propaganda.

    Nobody questions the fact that there were reprisal shootings carried out by the Einsatzgruppen or that the anti-partisan activity fully reciprocated the brutal (and in many instances sadistic and cruel) actions of the partisans, but it is likely that the numbers of victims of the alleged “Holocaust by bullets” has been exaggerated a hundred fold.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Yes. Even if we grant something like 1-2K people were shot at Babi Yar (to pick just a plausible number at random, keep in mind the official narrative claims 150K (!), Jews and non-Jews, were shot there over the entire course of the war), as you note, this was in response to a bombing of German HQ. Something the Americans would howl about terrorism if it happened to them.

    Again, it needs to be repeated, apparently: however harsh and brutal German actions were, they were wartime contingencies and NOT an extermination plan. Why are some people ok with 1000's of Jews shot at Babi Yar, but not 100K Japanese killed in the fire-bombing of Tokyo? (Never mind, I know the answer.)
    , @Anon
    Rumbula is among the best documented war crimes in human history. There are reams of testimony from perpetrators, bystanders, and survivors, not to mention a documentary record that puts the whole event essentially beyond denial. Himmler's service calendar remarks on the events repeatedly. When Aktion 1005 went to Riga and dug up bodies and burned them, the city stank for days, as witnesses still alive today can attest. To deny what happened at Rumbula would be the height of stupidity.

    So it follows: If the Nazis were willing to shoot thousands of Jews at Rumbula, then what makes you think they'd have held their fire at Babi Yar?
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  227. Mulegino1 says:
    @Anon
    No, I think you're ashamed to say clearly that you think Nazis shooting dozens of Jews is all right with you under any circumstances, which is what Codreanu himself believed.

    So say it.

    I think that you’re ashamed to admit that the Allies burning hundreds of thousands of men, women and children to death in the great incendiary raids, deliberately strafing civilians and refugee columns, not to mention carrying out the greatest mass rape in recorded history is far worse in quantitative terms than the reprisal executions carried out on a scale lower by orders of magnitude in response to horrendous, vicious and in many cases sadistic partisan activity. Just say so.

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  228. Mulegino1 says:
    @Avery
    {Where are you getting this????}

    I am getting this by reading comments @unz when WW2 is discussed.
    For many years and many different threads.
    There are several posters, who I assume to be of German descent or sympathizers of Nazis/Hitler, who post comments defending Hitler's invasion of USSR.
    You can see one in this thread: [Mulegino1].

    {What were the soldiers of the Wehrmacht doing in Stalingrad? It is called defending Europa. It started in June of 1941, when Germany and its allies delivered a preemptive strike against massive Soviet formations staging for an invasion of Europe along the western frontiers of the Soviet Union.}

    (a bogus excuse, having been debunked by many historians, notably David M. Glantz, an American military historian.)

    Read poster [MarkinLA] reply #121, and tell us if poster [Mulegino1] is not nostalgic for Hitler.

    Yeah, Hitler was not German-German: he was Austrian, a Germanic ethnos.
    Aaaand.....80 million German-Germans followed and obeyed him: all the way to the Gates of Hell.
    Napoleon was not French: he was Corsican, but we don't say Corsica invaded e.g. Russia: France and the Grande Arme did.


    Oh,almost forgot: "Jeeze Lousie".
    So, there.

    No, David Glantz did not debunk the very palpable fact that the Soviets were preparing a massive invasion of Europe, scheduled for sometime in the summer or early fall of 1941:

    The Red Army was not a “staggering colossus” as the title of Glantz’s book implies. The Soviets crushed the Japanese in the Battle of Khalkin Gol in 1939, and- despite taking heavy casualties in the Winter War against Finland- did manage to breach the Mannerheim Line, an extremely formidable and fortified defense.

    The facts on the ground demonstrate quite convincingly that the Soviets were preparing for a massive invasion, with the bulk of their ground forces placed in the Lvov and Byalistock Salients along an east to west axis – perfect for offensive warfare, absolutely disastrous if preempted – which was indeed the case. That is the real reason for the vast encirclements of entire armies and the netting of huge amounts of prisoners during the first few weeks of Barbarossa. The Wehrmacht would never have been able to breach a fortified and strengthened Stalin Line.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Also, Glantz (or anyone else) did not have anything like unfettered access to post-Soviet war archives, and does not claim so (although he does not exactly try to disabuse popular impressions to the contrary).
    , @Avery
    {No, David Glantz did not debunk...}

    Yes he did.

    And neither Finnish nor Imperial Japanese military were in the league of the Wehrmacht.
    Wehrmacht conquered all of France in less than 2 months.French at the time had far more artillery pieces and more and better tanks than the Wehrmacht.Both had the same number of men/divisions.
    They lasted all of 46 days.

    { the Winter War against Finland....}

    The war against Finland was a disaster for the Red Army.
    It eventually prevailed against tiny Finland by sheer numbers alone.
    Soviet losses in men were about 4X-5X that of Finland.
    It was bloodbath for the Red Army.
    Hitler partly based his miscalculation of Red Army strength on its disastrous performance in the Winter War.

    "We only have to kick in the door and the whole rotten structure will come crashing down."
    —Adolf Hitler, just before Operation Barbarossa.

    Hardly the evaluation of a military force that could conquer Nazi Germany.


    {That is the real reason for the vast encirclements of entire armies....}


    The real reason was that Stalin was shocked and paralyzed for hours/days when Hitler launched Barbarossa. For several hours as reports came in of Nazis crossing the border, Stalin refused to believe it was real, thought it was a provocation, and forbade Red Army from shooting back.

    When he realized the invasion was real, he irrationally and in full panic refused to allow Red Army divisions to fall back, hallucinating that that would stop the Blitzkrieg. Millions of Red Army troops were encircled and either wiped out or taken prisoner (....to be later murdered by Nazi invaders: deliberately starved to death).

    That was the real reason for the vast encirclement of entire Red Armies.
    And the real reason for Hitler's invasion of USSR was Lebensraum: subject Slavic Untermenschen to genocide and then populate the depopulated Slavic lands with Germanic peoples.

    , @Anon
    I'm not afraid to say any of that, with the exception of the last part. Obviously the crimes committed by the Allies against civilian populations were on a massive scale and crimes against humanity for which there is no excuse. But to claim they were "far worse" than what the Nazis did to whole populations (with the exception of the Soviet rape campaign, which I submit is equally awful) is just blindingly dumb.

    So I'm perfectly able to admit that "my side" did things for which there is no excuse.

    You, on the other hand, will use a photo of a murderous Jew hater as your avatar but not admit that the actions the Nazis committed that would form the natural culmination of Codreanu's words are absolutely fine by you. That makes you a coward, and a miserable one at that. I'd respect you for being honest if you just said it, which you won't. And that makes you pathetic to boot.
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  229. @Mulegino1
    I am not familiar with the particulars of the Rumbula massacre, but the tale of 33,000 plus Jews at Babi Yar appears to be a complete hoax. When the German Army occupied Kiev, there were detonations of bombs which had been planted in advance and which killed dozens of the occupation forces. There were some reprisal shootings for these illegal partisan actions, but nothing like 33,000.

    The whole narrative of Babi Yar is ridiculous: the story goes that the Germans marched the Jews to the ravine, shot them down, buried them and then dug up the bodies during the infamous "Aktion 1005" and burned all of the bodies to ashes on tombstones from a Jewish cemetery. The whole thing is nonsense. Such a massive operation would have required considerable earth moving equipment, hundreds of thousands of pounds of dried, cured firewood and the additional necessity of disposing of the cremated remains. Yet, aerial reconnaissance photographs taken of the ravine in the immediate aftermath of the alleged massive cremation operations show nothing; no major topographical disturbances no traces of the huge amount of wood ash, no mounds of earth, and no access roads into the ravine. Like many of the grossly exaggerated claims of the Holohoax Industry, Babi Yar is just another free invention of Soviet propaganda.