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The Obstacle to Peace
Washington's Role as Israel's Enabler
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The persistence of the Israel-Palestine conflict together with its clash of civilizations subplot invites inquiry far beyond the simplistic explanation that it is about two peoples seeking to occupy the same land at the same time. It has spawned hundreds of books and articles, some well informed and others purely polemical. Scores of “experts,” most of whom are advocates for one side or the other, are part of a seemingly vast industry that seeks to understand what has happened in the past and tries to come to grips with what is currently taking place. Some pundits even look ahead, rejecting the view that the conflict is intractable and floating plans to bring about some kind of a solution that is acceptable to both sides as well as to the neighboring and sometimes not-so-neighboring governments that have inexorably been drawn in to the dispute.

Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that, deconstructing the prevailing narrative on the Middle East while also explaining in meticulous and fully documented detail why and how a succession of United States administrations has actually become the greatest impediment to a just settlement that would benefit both Palestinians and Israelis. Washington, which pretends to be part of a possible solution, is actually the problem.

Hammond is an award winning investigative journalist and the editor of Foreign Policy Journal. Along the way to his central thesis his book provides an exhaustive history of the Israel-Palestine relationship which, to be sure, will interest many readers. But it is his insight into how Washington’s blatant hypocrisy has been the most significant factor making peace between the two parties impossible that gets to the real heart of the matter.

The United States has for many years appeared to promote a peaceful and mutually beneficial “two state solution” to the conflict between Jews and Arabs. That in theory means that there should be two independent nations existing side by side, one made up largely of Palestinian Arabs and the other mostly consisting of Israeli Jews. That would seem to be a reasonable outcome and one that many fair minded individuals would comfortably endorse. Much of the world has, in fact, gone along with that formula, allowing the United States to take the lead in what have been remarkably unproductive peace talks.

Failure at the negotiating table has been largely due to the fact that there is a flaw in the arrangement, which is that Washington has gone along with and repeatedly echoes the Israeli insistence that both confidence building and final arrangements should be the product of bilateral negotiations between the two sides.

Tying all attempts at conflict resolution to obligatory bilateral negotiations mean that Israel has de facto been able to postpone any real movement towards a peace agreement and basically to reject the entire two state concept. Richard Falk describes the process as a “holding operation” that is not intended to produce results while the inexorable Israeli settling of the West Bank continues under the radar. That it works that way is because one side, the Israelis, representing a unified and powerful state that actually occupies much of the other side’s territory, is able to call the shots, exercising its will relatively freely, accepting or refusing to accommodate even reasonable proposals by the Palestinian negotiators sitting across the table.

Even so, and in spite of the asymmetry in power, as it is in Israel’s own long term interest to come to some kind of arrangement with the Palestinians, the two sides might well have taken reasonable steps to narrow the differences between themselves and move towards an agreement. That they did not come to an understanding was due to the other flaw in the arrangement, which was that Washington has never served as an even-handed broker between Palestinian and Israeli. It has always favored the latter, quite understandably, reflective of the powerful Jewish interests in the United States versus the almost non-existent and essentially voiceless Arab-American lobby. The bond between Washington and Tel Aviv has frequently been described as a “special relationship” even though it does not commit Israel in any way to take any action favored by Washington. Quite the contrary in reality, but the belief on the part of many Establishment Americans that there is something “special” persists, frequently embellished with other fulsome expressions like “greatest ally” and “best friend.”

Washington knows very well but will never acknowledge that phony peace talks provide cover for Israeli expansion on the ground that will make a Palestinian state impossible to achieve. Indeed, Israel could not possibly continue its settlement policy, which is opposed by nearly all the world, without American tacit support. And the White House’s role as Israel’s patron and de facto collaborator has materially affected the ongoing discussion on what to do in a number of other ways. It has, for example, effectively empowered the political hard right wing in Israel by permitting Tel Aviv to take popular but extreme positions knowing that there will be no consequences.

Washington has also framed the actual peace talks, when they occur, in such a way as to always turn back to the “negotiations between the two sides” formula which puts the control back in Israel’s hands. Regarding those negotiations, it never pressures Israel in any way and always claims to “have Israel’s back.” Even mild rebukes about new settlement building are always balanced and made irrelevant by simultaneously accusing the Palestinians of “creating obstacles” and “incitement.”

Beyond its own internal discipline on the issue, the United States will not allow anyone else to pressure Israel either. It has blocked attempts by the Palestinians to upgrade their status in the United Nations or to obtain access to the International Criminal Court. Congress and the White House have both together and individually taken steps to sanction perfectly legal and non-violent Palestinian attempts to put economic pressure on Israel through the Boycott, Divest and Sanction (BDS) movement.

Hammond sees a Washington that has been so thoroughly subverted by Israeli interests that it has no wiggle room to behave independently on any issue viewed as important to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. By using its United Nations veto the State Department has consistently provided Israel with protective political cover whenever it behaves badly, insuring that there will no consequences whatsoever if the Netanyahu government continues to steal Arab land and expand its own authority on the West Bank. Protecting Israel is the norm even when its actions damage actual American interests. When General David Petraeus spoke candidly in 2010, saying that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians was endangering American soldiers operating in the Middle East, he was quickly forced to recant.

Hammond also examines in some detail the role of the U.S. punditry and media in sustaining the imbalance in the public perception about Israel vs. Palestine. Israel’s actual language and its propagandistic viewpoint in describing the conflict are adopted not only by the federal government but also by mainstream journalists and think tank “experts.” As Hammond puts it, “they choose not to see” that the entire two-state formula is a sham deliberately intended to serve as a delaying tactic. As part of the process Arabs are regularly diminished as human beings, invariably being described in negative terms, suggesting that they have to somehow politically mature if they ever want to achieve statehood. Those Palestinians who are brave enough to attack Israeli soldiers are always described as “terrorists,” which resonates with a western audience that both associates terror with Muslims and is predisposed to be fearful of attacks at home sourced to the instability in the Middle East.

In the U.S. media the illegal Israeli occupation of much of the West Bank and nearly all of East Jerusalem is rarely mentioned and the right of an occupied people to resist under international law is never discussed. And when peace talks inevitably break down it is always because Israel “has no one to negotiate with” or “because the Palestinians have turned down a generous offer” or have been “rejectionist” not because Israel has a vested interested in jawing interminably while it continues to build settlements that create facts on the ground that will eventually be used to justify a takeover of nearly all the West Bank.

Hammond demonstrates how the Israeli-U.S.-media nexus works in practice in relationship to the devastating 2008-9 Operation Cast Lead attack on Gaza. Israel provoked the crisis, announced that diplomatic options had broken down, applied more pressure until there was a response, and then exercised an overwhelming military option, killing 1400 Gazans including possibly as many as 400 children. The U.S. government supported the Israeli action as “going after terrorists” and “legitimate defense” while the mainstream media followed suit. Bear in mind that Gaza had no army of any kind and its vulnerable civilians had virtually no means to resist the Israeli attack, which included a number of documented war crimes.

Jeremy Hammond’s website includes additional reviews and commentary on Obstacles to Peace. He has written his book in an attempt to inform the American public about what is really going on in the Middle East. He seeks to empower his fellow citizens to emphatically reject the actions of the government, the mainstream media and the host of think tank experts who have pretty much had things their own way for fifty years. May he find success. To my mind his book is essential reading on Israel-Palestine, joining the classic John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, Steven Sniegoski’s The Transparent Cabal and Alison Weir’s Against Our Better Judgement. The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine 
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  1. anon • Disclaimer says:

    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

  2. The absurdity of the notion that sacrificing Israel or the Alter of Muslim rage is beyond credulity. What ever imperfection and or even venality arising out of the capture of US policy by the neoco, NWO elites, sacrificing Israel will no more appease these mad dogs than the Munich accords appeased Hitler.

    • Replies: @Wally
    , @Anonymous
  3. RobinG says:

    This I like:

    “the Zionists had no legal authority for their unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948.

    The UN’s acceptance of Israel’s territorial conquest as a fait accompli and admission of Israel as a member in the wake of the war did not confer ex post facto legal authority for that declaration or justify the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population.

    There’s an entire section in the book, by the way, about Israel’s UN membership, and how the UN violated the UN Charter and prejudiced the rights of the Palestinians”

    Jeremy Hammond

    The “state of Israel” is an illegal construct, and the sooner it’s deconstructed (peacefully dismantled), the better.

    • Replies: @TJM
    , @TJM
    , @Sam Shama
  4. What’s uniquely problematic about the “special relationship” is its immense depth, its vast reach and its intense gravitational pull. This is no small matter.

    The Israeli lobby may be centered in Washington, but it’s tentacles stretch worldwide. Moreover, Jews are–pound-for-pound–the world’s most educated, wealthy, cohesive, savvy and influential sect. This makes The Lobby uniquely powerful. And ‘unique’ is, in this case, no exaggeration.

    Even the ancient Romans complained about their haughty arrogance.

    And for millions of Jews throughout the world, Jewish security is inseparable from Israel’s. And Israel is on a world-class winning streak.

    Whereas other powerful and well-funded lobbies such as the NRA and the AARP are largely transparent and strictly domestic, the ‘Israeli lobby’ has no national boundaries. It also binds together individual identity with a group security in a fashion that is unparalleled.

    Toss in a race-oriented religion, supremely-high intelligence, historic grievance, economic power and stratospheric levels of ethnocentrism, and what we’ve got on our hands is a hornet’s nest of entitlement, resentment and hubris. These are God’s Chosen People.

    You may not believe it, but they do.

    And from the ashes of The Holocaust rose the downtrodden and the indestructible Jewish people. Innocent and suffering. Always innocent.

    That’s the modern outline anyway. And it packs a punch.

    By contrast, Americans who identify as White are routinely depicted as ‘racists’ and scoundrels. Only Hollywood could manufacture and sustain such a narrative.

    If the Jews aren’t the world’s most glorious and cohesive tribe, then who is?

    Similarly, their cultural and political footprint is humongous.

    World Jewry (including Israel) constitutes the world’s foremost superpower. The craven conduct of America’s entire governing class proves this.

    The overriding influence of Zionism in the West goes a long way towards explaining why there is not one prominent public figure who will critically examine Jewish power at length or explore Jewish wealth and privilege openly. It doesn’t happen. It can’t.

    Plus, there’s the opaque but vaguely recognizable network of shadowy and covert pro-Zionist organizations which never rest and which span the globe. Israeli surveillance, sabotage and intelligence-gathering is both revered and reviled. Jewish agency can be ruthless.

    America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.

  5. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    “It’s All for Israel”

    “Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel’s targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria. Iraq is stronger than Syria. In the short run it is Iraqi power which constitutes the greatest threat to Israel. An Iraqi-Iranian war will tear Iraq apart and cause its downfall at home even before it is able to organize a struggle on a wide front against us. Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation will assist us in the short run and will shorten the way to the more important aim of breaking up Iraq into denominations as in Syria and in Lebanon. In Iraq, a division into provinces along ethnic/religious lines as in Syria during Ottoman times is possible. So, three (or more) states will exist around the three major cities: Basra, Baghdad and Mosul, and Shi’ite areas in the south will separate from the Sunni and Kurdish north. It is possible that the present Iranian-Iraqi confrontation will deepen this polarization.” (A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties, Oded Yinon, monabaker.com)

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/20/its-all-for-israel/

    Shouldn’t Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed for the glory of Eretz Israel?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  6. Rehmat says:

    Jeremy Hammond doesn’t mention any thing new. Anyone who has studied the Zionist occupation of once a Muslim-majority Palestine from some objective source knows that United States along with USSR and Britain played part of midwives for the creation, arming, and supporting to this day the “shitty little Zionist entity”.

    In August 2009, I pulled Jeremy Hammond’s dirty pants by criticizing his interview with Pakistan’s ISI chief Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul. In order to hide his ‘Crypto Zionist’ credentials, Jeremy Hammond, wrote a lengthy article, entitled, “Rehmat’s Delusional World”.

    Iran’s Islamists are the only ones who have shown the guts to help Palestinians financially and morally – risking the wrath of world powers controlled by the Zionist Judeo-Christianity.

    The United States and Britain have long turned into Israel’s colonies. They along with Russia have lost their will to challenge the Zionist regime to even postpone building new illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem captured by the Jewish army in June 1967. In 2010, David Makovsky, of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a close associate of Dennis Ross, Obama’s chief adviser on the Middle East, disclosed that Obama wrote a letter to Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze the settlements for two months in return for a series of extraordinarily generous offers to Israel, many of them at the expense of the Palestinians. The offer was rejected by Netanyahu.

    Last year, Obama promised to increase US $3 billions annual military aid to $4.5 billions if the dude keep his mouth shut over the so-called P5+1 and Iran nuclear agreement. Ironically, Netanyahu got the increase without shutting his big mouth.

    US-born American anti-war activist, Dr. Dahlia Wasfi MD, in a 2008 speech (watch below) claims that the United states is totally occupied by Israel through Jewish lobby groups and Jewish oligarchs who buy US politicians as we saw during the recent AIPAC conference.

    Dr. Wasfi explains how the current bloodshed in the Middle East was started by the US, Israel, UK, and their regional clients to weaken the Muslim countries surrounding the Zionist entity for the benefit of Israel.

    Wasfi was born to an American Jewish mother and a Muslim Iraqi father in 1971. She is married to Ross Caputi, a US Marine, who fought in Iraq……

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/03/27/dahlia-wasfi-us-is-under-israeli-occupation/

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  7. TJM says:
    @anon

    WHAT, “one conflict involves Jews”, in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute…and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with “Black Lives Matter”. Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @MMM
    , @Wally
    , @Wizard of Oz
  8. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Greg Bacon

    “Shouldn’t Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed…”

    Americans are not conscripted. If a knothead is stupid enough to go in the military, they will always get what they always get. Wars will not stop until the people simply refuse to participate.

  9. annamaria says:
    @anon

    Let’s stay on point. It is not just a state of Israel –– it is zionism X neocons = Ziocons –– the parasitoids on the living hapless body of the US, which are the topic of this article.
    After killing thousands of hundreds innocent civilians in the Middle East and destroying whatever economic stability the US had before the US-initiated wars and regime changes in the Middle East, the US have been actively supporting the alleged 9/11 culprits, Al Qaeda, to help Israelis to get the Golan Heights and to destroy another formerly functioning M.E. state. See Yinon Plan: http://www.voltairenet.org/article186019.html

    “US Senator: “We Have Never Done Anything More Loathsome or Despicable Than What We’re Doing in Syria.”
    “Senator Richard Black and Janice Kortkamp discuss the shameful situation in Syria, where the US government is actively arming and funding Al Nusra (Al Qaeda) and “conduits” (“moderates”), blending them together, and then using this model to exterminate the Syrian population.”

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/07/us-senator-we-have-never-done-anything.html

    No wonder that the despicable war criminal Wolfowitz and the hateful Kagans support Mrs. Clinton for president; she is always ready for initiating another slaughter in the Middle East (and Ukraine) on cue from her handlers.

  10. TJM says:
    @RobinG

    “Mad dogs”, do you mean the Israeli’s?

    Where do you think you are that you can speak such lies and get away with it. Israel and its rabid supporters IS the reason their is conflict in the Middle East.

    Zionist Jews work tirelessly to create conflict in the Middle East. Everyone knows Iran has no nukes, but that does not stop the mad dog Netanyahu from pushing for war with Iran. Just like he did with Iraq. And within and without of the US governemnt, Zionist Jew forces work to create conflict with Russia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general, and anyone who stands in their way of global financial domination.

    Just look at he Bretix vote, the Zionist were trying to work their magic to scare the Brits into staying in their NWO, but the Brits said NO. Interesting FACT, the EU gives preferential trade deal with ISRAEL, even though it is against their charter, and give no such sweetheart deals to any other member.

    Hollywood, which is undeniably Zionist Jew, promotes hate of both Christians, Muslims, and Russians, while promoting sex, violence and greed to an unassuming public.

    Zionism is the greatest force for evil on the planet, and everything form Wikileaks to Google can back that statement up!

    • Replies: @RobinG
  11. atheo says: • Website

    Jeremy has been a stalwart denier of the power of the Israel lobby. Vehement insistence on the fallacious “war for oil” dogma.

    Any critique of Israel coming from Hammond should be viewed as a limited hangout intended to obscure Jewish power within western establishments.

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  12. @anon

    “dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.”

    But the “one that involves Jews” is much the bigger strategic problem for the US. That’s the difference.

    The “one that involves Jews” is the one that is, over time, inexorably alienating the US from the Arabs and those who are sympathetic to the dispossession of the Palestinians, especially other Muslim states such as Iran and Turkey, the two natural regional leaders.

    The “one that involves Jews” is the one that is creating strategic space for Russia and, in the long term much more challengingly, for China.

    You make the standard, sophistic pro-Israel argument, an deliberately opaque conflation of moral and strategic “reasoning” that has no goal other than to promote the welfare of Israel as you understand it.

    You represent the destructive parasitism that Phil Giraldi makes reference to in his last paragraph.

  13. @anon

    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    On Sept 12, 2002 Benjamin Netanyahu urged a US congressional committee to attack Iraq.
    Therefore, it’s reasonable — essential, really, to include the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq among the “wars that involve Jews” and deaths resulting from those wars.

    From Michael Eisenstadt’s recent comments on C Span, it’s also reasonable to conclude that the war in Syria “involves Jews,” therefore the 250,000 to 400,000 deaths and the massive displacement and destabilization of Syrians can be attributed at least in part to “Jewish involvement.”

    Further, Eisenstadt’s core message — his Luntzian talking points — urged that the USA “remain involved, must remain involved, has to remain involved” in the debacles in the Middle East for years, decades, perhaps several generations to come, to “support our allies,” and as every American knows from the first slap he experiences across his behind, Israel is “America’s ally,” with whom the USA has a “special relationship,” nunc et in aeternum, co-terminus with Jewish involvement in wars and consequent deaths.

    Own it.

    • Replies: @Sherman
  14. TJM says:
    @RobinG

    There is no such thing as peaceful anything when you are dealing with Israeli’s. That is the great mistake of the West, they and their institutions are infested with Zionists, and they wonder why everything is going so poorly. But when you look at those pulling the strings, like a George Soros, or Bill Krystal, and those writing the legislation for the puppet politicians, you see the face of the Zionist.

    The man who pushed for the war ON Iraq, the men who wrote the sanctions on Iran, the persons who pushed for the conflict in Ukraine, the man who wrote the “Patriot Act”, or the men who work to justify the changes in American understanding of the Constitution and our Freedoms, the men who work to open our borders, the men who wrote the immigration “reform act”, the men who worked to undermine Glass- Steagler…and so much more. America is profoundly influenced by Zionist Jews, that in itself is concerning, but its the fact that we are NOT allowed to discuss this influence, even deny its existence is the most destructive.

  15. @Mark Green

    “America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.”

    The only thing that will change it, sadly, is a crisis of the American system. If the Chinese are successful in building a parallel global financial structure that ends US financial hegemony, it will unleash a catastrophic economic situation in which the US can no longer live beyond its means via the imperial tribute it exacts through dollar and treasury bill dominance. In the chaos that follow, the position of the Jews will become extremely perilous.

    Only that eventuality will create conditions–that is, conditions of intense suffering and instability in the US–that would allow for the termination of Jewish power as it now exists–hence, in large part, the panicky, aggressive anti-Chinese campaign that has been launched since the 2008 financial crisis.

  16. TJM says:
    @Mark Green

    Great post, one question though, as for their winning streak, would you not consider the Syrian conflict a loss for the “tribe”?

    As well, Kiev seems not to be working out as they planned or Turkey.

    Everyplace where Zionist Jews have spread their influence the nations have declined, and no better example of this is America.

    They control the media, entertainment, Hollywood, Wall Street, the Fed, Washington…and they are destroying the rest of the nation through the use of mas immigration.

    They have a desire for conflict, and are pushing idiot America to engage in a conflict with Russia and China. Things are changing with the internet, the word is getting out, even though they try and control that too. the question is, is it too late?

  17. Sherman says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Rehmat
  18. @Sherman

    Is this by-now tedious rejoinder your admission that you are unable to, or incapable of, refuting any of the stated facts about Jewish involvement in wars in Iraq and Syria?

    • Replies: @Sherman
  19. What is usually neglected in all the “Jews are at fault” stuff that is spewed with great energy is the Muslim ideology of the Umma. The Land of Israel was occupied by Muslims during the conquest that began immediately after Mohamed’s death. The position if Muslims is that whatever was Muslim land is eternally Muslim land. Consequently, there can be no peace unless either Israel pushed into the Sea, or Islam is destroyed.

    The idea that the Jews are at fault is utter nonsense. Muslims will allow no compromise and have repeatedly stated that the two state “solution” is simply a way station on the way to the ultimate goal, the total destruction of Israel.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai. The Israelis struck because they new they would be overwhelmed if they did not. The Arabs lost in 6 days.

    You may be like Rehmat and think it’s all “da Jooooos,” but the facts tell a much different story. The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    This all comes down to Muslim recalcitrance, and they will not give up until Israel is no more. God, however, made a promise to Abraham and that promise will be kept. Muslims are preaching a lie, and they will bang their heads on a wall that God erected many years ago. That land is Israel’s home, and it will remain so.

  20. Sherman says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Rejoinder?

    Who taught you such a big word?

    Not only are you a neo-Nazi psycho but you’re also pretentious.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @annamaria
  21. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Phil….just write it.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  22. Art says:
    @Quartermaster

    The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    Quartermaster,

    You personally are a prime example of why the Jew are so disrespected by the world. You have no compunction about telling an in your face lie.

    The treatment of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities is nothing sort of criminal.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv’s use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists

    Art

  23. Rehmat says:
    @Sherman

    Why any Christian would respect todays Jews, who never existed when the four GOSPELs were authored? However, as the time passes, the Gentile from North Africa and Asia converted to Israelite faith in the 4th and 10th centuries to loot and corrupt the Christian lands in the West.

    The ‘Semite fraud’ runs in the self-denial Zionist Jew blood. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech at UN General Assembly last year was all about Iran’s nuclear program. That’s didn’t surprise pro-Iran diplomats listening to Netanyahu parroting, but what surprised many observers was the absence of two pro-Israel Crypto Jews; US secretary of state John Kerry, and US ambassador to UN Samantha Power.

    Elliot Abrams, former White House Jew aid and a war criminal, did notice this anti-Israel gesture. Abrams, who is now a senior fellow at Jewish-controlled CFR, excused fellow Jew Kerry, but blasted Power at CFR’s website Pressure Points on October 2, 2015. “As for Samantha Power, one has to wonder what was running through her mind when she was instructed to stay away. Is this really why she left the academic and intellectual life– to be used by the Obama administration to insult and damage Israel?,” he wrote….

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/10/netanyahu-obama-and-bible-hate-jews/

  24. alexander says:
    @Quartermaster

    These are interesting observations, Quartermaster.

    There are, no doubt, many Muslim countries who do not accept the existence of the state of Israel, no matter where its borders are.

    (most of which have been thoroughly “pulverized” over the last 15 years)

    But there are many Muslim countries that DO accept the state of Israel, and many more who have acquiesced to its existence since 1948.

    The Arab peace initiative of 2002 recognizes the full rights of Israels existence within its mandated international borders.

    The Arab peace initiative fully conforms to all the parameters of the “two-state” solution.

    Israel CAN claim these initiatives are a smokescreen , and that the Muslims will take first advantage to attack and overwhelm Israel should they be given the time and the opportunity.

    But what if they don’t ?

    What if the initiative is authentic ?

    What if most of the Muslim world HAS accepted the state of Israel ?

    Why not take a chance at peace ?

    Is there so much Israel stands to lose except for the West Bank and the Golan Heights, which are not recognized as part of Israel by the world community, anyway ?

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  25. @Sherman

    STILL unable to refute the stated facts regarding “Jewish involvement” in wars in Iraq and Syria. Doubling-down use of ad hominem.
    Signaling desperation.

    I don’t know much about debate & argument; I used to be a judge at debate tournaments when one of our kids was on a team that won national championships, but I wasn’t very good at it — the kids talked way too fast. But I did get the impression that the point of argument/debate was to present information that contradicted the adversary’s; or to demonstrate how the adversary’s evidence or logic was fallacious, etc.

    Your comments are a corollary to “if your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail.” The “nails” that you see all around you are, um, nailing you to the wall of mendacity — (oops, too big a word? I didn’t want to be crude and say something like, pack of stupid lies, but it means pretty much the same thing) — that a certain group has constructed over the past century or so; you’re unable to remove the nails, nor to free yourself from being bound by them, so you lash out, futilely, as it were, with the only hammer you’ve got: childish ad hominem. Funny how it’s almost like a signed confession.

    • Replies: @Clyde
  26. @alexander

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?

    neon light-worthy.

    great comment.

  27. MMM says:
    @TJM

    “EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS!”

    That is very true, and you will never read that in the Zionist owned and controlled propaganda aka Mainstream Media, and phony alternative media.

    ‘The Obstacle to Peace’ featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for “Israel” and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    The world is waking up and finding out the names of what it is sick to death of — what has made it sick. And they are everywhere.

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
    , @Lee
  28. RobinG says:
    @TJM

    Dis you intend this reply for #2 Joe Martin? (Those are not my mad dogs.)

  29. nickels says:

    There will be no peace until western Catholics ally with Russian Orthodoxy and forcibly remove the Hebrewites from the land of the saviour, reinstate Koine Greek and establish the rule of a united Catholic/Orthodox society in the Holy Lands.

  30. RobinG says:
    @Anonymous

    Indeed, Phil, write the book on “actual damage that Israel has done to the United States” but don’t limit it to theft and spying and snaring into unnecessary wars. Give some attention to their assault on the essence of this country, the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    OUR CIVIL RIGHTS ARE THREATENED BY ISRAEL

    Israel’s US Lobby hates the free speech of our 1st Amendment. On Monday the CA legislature was scheduled to vote on the anti-BDS AB 2844. (Anyone know how that went?) State laws like AB 2844 are attacks on our right to free expression. In Europe today, and Canada, there are laws prohibiting perceived anti-Semitism. If laws like AB 2844 are enacted that curtail meaningful criticism of Israel, we are on the way to restriction of open discussion such as we enjoy at Unz Review.

    COROLLARY: THE 2ND AMENDMENT PRECEDENT

    The recent attempt to use the ‘No Fly, No Buy’ list to abrogate gun rights was a vicious, lazy and stupid assault on all our civil rights. Those fools thought they could use the Orlando debacle to push through unconstitutional restrictions. No-Fly, No Buy is based on a secret list compiled by the FBI. Please imagine a secret list of “Persons critical of Israel” who will be summarily prohibited from publishing or speaking in public. (Maybe barred from internet or social media access.) If you note that a Canadian was recently sentenced to jail for posting writings on the web deemed anti-Semitic, you know this is not far-fetched.

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
  31. I was only 17 years old when I realized almost everything that is wrong in the middle east is because of israel.

    if arabs ever want control of their own lands and lives, their only choice is to get rich and get better arms. basically strong enough where they can even resist the us military.

    it is hard with their leaders getting assassinated left and right, still they must try.

  32. schmenz says:

    Articles like this – and it is a fine article, by the way – depress me terribly. But as depressing as the situation is over there this article, by Steven Sniegoski, is even more depressing:

    http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/ (click on “New Article by Steven Sniegoski”)

    If what Sniegoski says is true, then Russia is dumber than I thought and there will never be any hope for the Palestinians.

  33. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    As creation of states go, importantly during the period over which colonial powers were drawing and re-drawing national boundaries, Israel’s was as exemplary an application of legal process as one might hope to feature. For example, the legal force material to the creation of separate states in the Indian subcontinent, was, in the final analysis, drawn of the “legal framework” and subsequent bequeathal of the body of relevant laws from HMG. And, not to put too fine a point on it, the United Nations had no influence in the matter whatsoever, other than in the capacity of an observer in population movements during the partition.

    In Israel’s case, the U.N. voted, [how the votes were cajoled is fodder for speculation and intrigue for fertile minds], yet its authority stands. There is little to benefit from rehashing the various wars: civil, international and aggressive, fought by the various populations on the expiry of the Mandate and thereafter.

    Dismantlement of the state therefore, is neither legal nor practical, nor possible without grievous consequences. Time and grey matter better spent formulating avenues which circumvent Bibi’s grip; on the Israeli population, and via their rulers, on the KSA and the Gulf. This is the only way I see forward to the 1SS with full rights for Arab citizens and no right of return, which is a non-starter for not just Israel but for the BDS’ers as well.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  34. annamaria says:
    @Sherman

    I apologize for the intrusion into your conversation with SolontoCroesus, but was not it a member of Kagans clan that cooperated with Ukrainian neonazis on behalf of the US government? There is also an famous Mr. Kolomojsky, a Ukrainian/Israeli citizen that used to finance Ukrainian neonazis in the course of the Kiev-initiated civil war. There was even an auto-da-fe in Odessa, which involved Mr. Kolomojsky’ employees from Azov battalion. In the US, Mr. Kolomojsky was warmly greeted by WSJ, a pro-Israel entity.
    Where was the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC when of the US have started the collaboration with the neonazis? These Jewish organizations were silent when Nuland-Kagan fraternized with Ukrainian neonazis and when Israel traded Syrian oil with ISIS and provided med. treatment for ISIS jihadis.
    Actually, to a certain extend, I sympathize with you. Ziocons have no honor and no conscience. The lost tribe. In no measure they should be mistaken for Schweitzer, Einstein, Arendt and other amazing individuals produced by Jewish people living among other cultures than Jewish.
    Ziocons have become a planetary menace because of their power over the US governance.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  35. RobinG says:

    ISRAELI THINK-TANK SUPPORTS ISLAMIC STATE (ISIL)
    “The Western distaste for IS brutality and immorality should not obfuscate strategic clarity.”

    Of course, the Zionist penchant for weakening its neighbors takes precedence over mass murder, the destruction of a nation (Syria) and the destabilization of Europe. Their fraudulent demonization of Iran has unfortunately reached Trump’s ears. (Sad, but still more than cancelled by Hilligula’s fraudulent demonization of Putin and Russia.)

    BESA Center Perspectives Paper No. 353, August 2, 2016
    The Destruction of Islamic State is a Strategic Mistake

    http://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/destruction-islamic-state-strategic-mistake/

    • Replies: @Talha
  36. annamaria says:
    @annamaria

    correction: an infamous Mr. Kolomojsky

  37. @Sam Shama

    I hope Gucci has these in your size, Sam — https://www.gucci.com/us/en/pr/women/womens-shoes/womens-sandals/leather-studded-sandal-p-425930CQXL06476?gclid=CIbNp7Hj6c4CFckfhgod6LUG9w

    Given the way you dig in your heels in an attempt to sustain a narrative that started out on a slippery slope, you’re going to need high, stout heels and leather studs just to hang on as Team Israel loses the tug-of-war and is inexorably pulled into the mud pit.

    It was difficult to suggest Italian style: I hate to see anything Italian end up in the muck and mud, but on the other hand, only the best for our friend Sam.

    Rallegramenti per il tuo secondo posto finale

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  38. […] is executive director of the Council for the National Interested. This piece was published by the Unz Review on August 30, […]

  39. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I hadn’t any inkling that you were into women’s wear and cross-dressing; would’ve expected a preference for lederhosen, even paired with jackboots, more your style. I pass no judgement on tastes of course.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  40. @Rehmat

    Jeremy Hammond doesn’t mention any thing new.

    How would you know? You’d have to actually read the book.

  41. @Sam Shama

    Lederhosen??

    And hide these hard-won abs?

    re the cross-dressing thing — No aspersions intended: I was only thinking of you and your need for strong heels to dig in, all other avenues of extricating zionism from its morass being on the skids.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  42. @atheo

    Perhaps you should read the book before judging it. You could learn a great deal about why US policy toward the Israel-Palestine conflict is what it is if you did so.

  43. @Quartermaster

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.

    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine — by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the “Jewish state” of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel’s own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel — an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Sam Shama
    , @Karl
  44. @MMM

    ‘The Obstacle to Peace’ featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for “Israel” and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    I welcome you to read it to be able to be in a position to judge that for yourself (as opposed to judging it based on your opinion of someone who has written a blurb for it). You mentioned the role of the mainstream media, which Obstacle to Peace focuses heavily on, showing how it systematically deceives people about the true nature of the conflict.

  45. @nickels

    Most “Roman Catholics” in the USA today are Mexican or Latin American, and they neither know nor care about eastern Orthodoxy.

    Why God would possibly care about “Koine Greek” or any other particular language being “reinstated”, is difficult to fathom.

    I do agree, however, that all white and western peoples should demand that their governments ally with Russia against the threats of Islam and China.

    • Replies: @nickels
  46. RobinG says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    Typo……. June 5 attack on Egypt, not Israel.

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  47. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I only remark on this, the solitary instance when a misidentified defence of zionism and kitschy Italian [redundant distinction it may well be] women’s footwear were suddenly co-deposited in a political commentary.

    A projection of preferences was the only logical conclusion possible. I shall speak no more of the matter :-)

  48. nickels says:
    @RadicalCenter

    I am beginning to think the whole Neocon obsession with continuing the cold war against Russia even after its over is exactly because they don’t want western Christians to link up with Orthodox Russian Christians.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  49. @RobinG

    Yes, thank you! Unfortunately, no way to edit to correct it, but quite a critical error! That should have of course read:

    The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Egypt despite Israel’s own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel…

    Thanks again for catching.

  50. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    What did it then create? The first movement of a symphony? Which is arguably true and the allegro was seized upon by the Israeli leadership for the rest of the work. A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
    , @Art
  51. @Sam Shama

    What did it then create?

    Resolution 181 created nothing. Nor, again, did it confer any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of the existence of the state of Israel.

    A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    This statement assumes Israel was created partially from UN resolutions. Again, this is false.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  52. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.

    Nonsensical propaganda created to sustain supremacist Jews / Zionism.

    Your position rests upon the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’, a profoundly false & laughable premise.

    There is Hitler with the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ and there is Hitler without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    http://www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Jews have been marketing the ’6,000,000′ lie since 1869:

    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
  53. Wally says: • Website
    @TJM

    The talented Mel Gibson nailed it.

    And actions of Jews prove it.

    see:
    Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189

    and:
    The Zionist attempt to control language.
    The Israel Project’s 2009 GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY

    https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf

    and:
    The commander behind the pro-Israel student troops on U.S. college campuses

    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.709014

    and:
    Israel tech site paying “interns” to covertly plant stories in social media

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-tech-site-paying-interns-covertly-plant-stories-social-media

    and:
    Israeli students to get $2,000 to spread state propaganda on Facebook

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook

  54. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That’s all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in “nation-building” you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    “deconstruction” and “peaceful dismantlement” of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?

  55. Michael Eisenstadt, director of MidEast Policy for WINEP, the AIPAC think tank that is also home to Dennis Ross, was guest on C Span Washington Journal to discuss what US policy should be going forward. https://www.c-span.org/video/?414130-5/washington-journal-michael-eisenstadt-middle-east-policy

    Eisenstadt urged that US “remain engaged” — for several decades if not forever, to “protect American interests and allies in the region.”

    Numerous callers to the program took the contrary view: USA should mind its own business and not attempt to impose its will or its culture on the peoples of the Middle East; they should be left alone to solve their own problems.

    Several of those callers said that “US interventions had caused nothing but death, destruction and instability for the people in the region, and erosion of rights and of security for the American people.”

    “What good has come from any of the US incursions in the region?” asked several callers of Eisenstadt.

    He responded:

    Has intervention ever worked? I would argue first of all in the ’73 war, where we actually threatened to intervene in response to perceived threats of the Soviets at the time, it was actually truly brilliant because it enabled us to help —enabled us to ensure an [unambiguous outcome to the ’73 war, which enabled, enabled Sadat eventually to seek peace with Israel and Sadat’s Egypt to become a close ally of the United States.

    So I think the ’73 war is a very good example of how American diplomatic and threatened military intervention actually bore tremendous results, both in terms of American interests and I would argue, for stability in the region.

    Eisenstadt's response was particularly tone-deaf, in view of his own comments earlier: While reviewing the comments he had heard on a recent trip to the region, Eisenstadt said,

    "[I heard criticisms from Gulf Arabs of] our perceived abandonment of President Mubarak of Egypt once you had the Arab Spring in Cairo.

    Now I —- my, my come back to this is that, you know, we had no choice. I mean what are we going to do? Intervene and send the 82nd Airborne into Tahir Square in order to, y’know, enable Mubarak to keep his position? So I think there would be criticisms on that count that were unfair and we are just going to differ with our allies.”

    (SIDEBAR: This comment reminded me of a refrain Bennie Morris relied upon to salve his conscience regarding the massacres of Palestinian Arabs that his “revisionist history” research had uncovered: “Our backs were to the wall,” Morris pleaded. “Our backs were to the wall; all we could do was kill the Arabs, we had no choice. Oh — and rape, too; Israelis did a lot of raping. But our backs were to the wall.”)

    A few minutes later, in response to a question from the audience as to “whether Egypt will devolve into chaos like Libya, Syria, and Iraq,” Eisenstadt responded:

    “Right now, it looks like Sisi has a firm grip, but there are signs that that could change at any time as a result of an assassination or possible coup. Things are not going great in Cairo . . .
    It provides a great case in which from our point of view, there are a lot of things unpalatable in terms of the way he is prosecuting the fight against ISIL. On the other hand, we have seen in the past what happens when they get rid of authoritarian leaders and what often follows is worse. We have a horrible choice there.”

    This statement is particularly revealing in light of a comment that former Mossad agent and Israeli foreign policy consultant to Netanyahu Yossi Alpher made in Washington, DC in 2015. Alpher conceded that Sisi was a “military dictator” who was oppressing the very same young Egyptians who had risked their lives to oust Mubarak, and that as they grew older there would be simmering resentment of the dictator Sisi, but “We Israelis must do what is in our interest, and Sisi keeping a lid on Egypt is good for Israel.”
    “Our backs were to the wall.”

    The one consistency in Eisenstadt’s notions about Egypt is, Is it good for Israel?

    Humiliating Sadat, a strong, popular Egyptian leader, was a good thing — for Israel.
    Removing the strong-man puppet that exercised American-enforced control over Egypt was not a good thing because it resulted in too much power to the people, a situation that was quickly remedied by the overthrow of Morsi and his replacement with another strong man/puppet dictator who keeps the lid on Egypt — good for Israel.

  56. @Wally

    Quite the racist moron you are. Come on tell us just where all those 12 million people disappeared to? Got any pics of your SS tattoos you can show us?

    • Replies: @Wally
  57. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    Legalities aside, creating Israel has been a giant mistake that has brought a new tension to the whole world. Your Jews said that they would make the desert bloom – well the obvious result is blood and hate in the ME, Europe, and America. As many people have died as a result of Israel, as Jews that were killed in WWII. As you know, we are not even close to the beginning of the end of the killing.

    We see your fellow hasbaraists express a desire for much more death. In the last election, Netanyahu promised no peace, and the Jews voted him.

    You say Israel does wrong – but it is obvious that you defend it over the best interests of the country that you live within.

    You are not the average hasbaraist. What are we to think? What are your true desires?

    Art

  58. gdpbull says:

    The Jewish leaders are largely in denial that anti-semitism is rising in the US, which is their current favorite country next to Israel. Eventually, it will be undeniable. They will then begin to get nervous and start looking for their next favorite country to hopefully influence to be Israel’s protector. And it will become more obvious that the US is gradually becoming third world and will eventually be unable to protect Israel in any case. A hundred years from now, we will be much like Brazil. I estimate that about fifty years from now the (((((DiamondGoldSilversteinmanwitzbergs))))) will be starting to migrate in a big way to their new favorite country, probably China.

  59. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    One step at a time, and by pressure on all fronts.

    Here’s a reminder. On August 8 a case was filed in Federal court challenging the legality of U.S. aid to Israel.

    Lawsuit Claims Aid to Nuclear Israel Illegal Under Symington Glenn Amendments

    http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/lawsuit-claims-aid-to-nuclear-israel-illegal-under-symington-glenn-amendments/

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  60. @Sam Shama

    ah, Sam, not only do the shoes fit and function for digging in heels, they’re useful for backpedaling — the glorification/normalization of zionism is contrary to other positions you have taken.

    States come and states go: Italy was invaded, occupied, oppressed, rebelled, restored, re-invaded a dozen times or more. Similar things happened to Persia. Germans have been decimated by wars — you should know that: Jews played a vanguard role in bringing about their destruction. They rose again, smaller bit of land, but still German.

    Why isn’t it reasonable that a state whose existence has come about at the expense — the devastating expense of most of its neighbors as well as hundreds of thousands of people in far distant lands who have been boonswoggled into financing and supporting it — bleeding for it, paying for it — why shouldn’t such an unpleasant blot on the globe be subjected to reformation, with extreme prejudice if need be? After all, doesn’t the US use its military might and financial power to alter the “behavior” of other states that have spent the last 3000 years in their own footprint, minding pretty much their own business until someone comes along who thinks their “behavior” needs to be changed?

    Can you think of any state more in need of behavioral adjustment than Israel?

    As for your “everybody does it” argument — did your learn that in one of your PhD courses? Surely that was not handed down to you in the 60% of Jewish genes that are from those kitschy Italians.

    Kitschy — is that Sicilian dialect, or Apulia?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  61. Actually America appears to be Israel’s servant.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  62. @Sam Shama

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets…

    No, the racist, colonialist premises of Resolution 181 and the partition plan’s explicit rejection of the right of the Arab majority of Palestine to self-determination is not “as good as it gets”. As good as it gets would entail respecting the equal rights of all parties. As good as it gets would have been for the independence of Palestine to be recognized and a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation, which is precisely what the Arabs proposed, but which was rejected both by the Zionists and their Western imperialist benefactors.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  63. @Wayne Pacific

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval? http://www.unz.com/article/the-obstacle-to-peace/#comment-1548509

    Care to name a state created on principles of serially exploiting, then destroying, its selected superpower protector-state?

    It’s “in Jewish DNA:” Jews must have a superpower servant.

    As Israelis learned after 2,000 years of Diaspora to think in sovereign terms anchored in the country’s geostrategic reality, they recalled that throughout their earlier sovereign history, in biblical times, they had always sought to make alliances with strong powers in the extended neighborhood to ensure survival. Not accidentally, many of the periphery states and peoples — Iran, Ethiopia, the Kurds, the Maronites — had roots in the Middle East.

    The ancient Hebrews had learned to develop, in the words of former Mossad head Ephraim Halevy, “a regional great power strategy.” During the days of the prophets, they turned toward either Babylon or Egypt.** In more modern times, World War I, a small vanguard of strategic innovators, the Nili underground, led the transition from an Ottoman to a British orientation. “This is embedded in the DNA of the Jewish people: it must always rely on certain regional and international actors.” Modern Israel’s founders also realized that a sovereign Hebrew state or states had existed in the Holy Land for but a few centuries of over 1,000 years of pre-Diaspora Israelite presence. This was a chilling warning to the modern state’s founders of just how fragile the Jewish state’s long-term prospects were. https://www.amazon.com/Periphery-Israels-Search-Middle-Allies/dp/1442231017

    ** The ancient Hebrews slaughtered the first-born of their Egyptian protectors/allies, stole their treasure and killed their leaders.
    The ancient Hebrews overthrew the leadership of the Babylonian (Persian) guarantor of Hebrew security, stole their treasure and slaughtered their key leaders, his family, and 70,000 of its citizens.
    Upon acquiring Palestine from the British, the not-so-ancient Hebrews bombed their headquarters and aroused enmity between the British and the Arabs until the British threw up their hands and left.
    The Jewish State relied on Iran for its periphery protection until Iranians claimed their own right to self-determination. Jews left Iran in a snit and have been gunning for Iran ever since, killing its young scientists, ginning up wars involving Iran then profiting from them; working through US financial institutions to destroy Iran’s economy.

    Why should the people of USA expect any different treatment?
    Read what it says: “It is in the Jewish people’s DNA . . .”

  64. Noizpots says:

    Excellent review. I will buy the book ASAP. “The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.”

    Write it Phil. Who better than you to be able to relay these facts!

  65. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    That aid should be stopped as I’ve repeated endlessly. It makes little economic difference for Israel, but just you watch the bleats that will come out of – Egypt, Jordan, and a whole host of others.

    Look I am unimpressed by these lawsuits. Many of these and other complaints have been filed in the past based on obscure draws on the legal code. Won’t go anywhere.

    You haven’t addressed any of the other questions I posed:

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    and what do you mean by “dismantlement”?

    • Replies: @RobinG
  66. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    States have come and gone, so what? Are you in search of the eternal abode? I prefer to deal with reality and make the best of it.

    The only thing in need of reformation is your undying love for two equally matched [and equally departed] clowns. Herr Schiklgruber who shot himself in gothic tradition, and that primping pipsqueak who ended hung upside down above a service station on the square.

    Which states are you referring to when blithely asserting “3000 years in their footprint” or something like that? Oh wait, it must be your adopted homeland n’est pas? Sorry but their movements westwards were squelched almost always by the Greeks and Romans. They did go all the way east to India though.

    Well certainly you are free to use all your powers to influence U.S. policy, why don’t you? The state and it machinery are the products of majoritarianism – warts and all. So I don’t see what your imagined obstacles are…..

    I am mostly Austrian plus 25% ME genetically [and U.K. culturally], so not a fan of overpriced Italian kitsch [don't take it personally], if you must know, my preferred wear are genuine articles made by Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes :-)

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  67. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Norway, 1905.

    “Peaceful dismantlement” is the mantra of those Rabbis that most other Jews love to hate. My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.

    You’re not impressed with lawsuits because you’re confident the Courts are fixed. This case isn’t against all foreign aid, just aid to nuclear armed Israel. Since they don’t need it, it’s symbolic, and losing it would be very symbolic. Forcing the US and Israel to comply with the law would be a landmark precedent.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  68. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around. Since I have no wish to be pulled into another quagmire of “discussions” I’ll end it by observing the following:

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it. Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace. Aware of the Arabs’ past aggressions, Resolution 181, in paragraph C, called on the Security Council to:

    “Determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution
    .”

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  69. Karl says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    > having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai

    incorrect.

    “On 23 May 1967, Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage”

    as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  70. iffen says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation

    Nothing like being the first one on the block to have a shiny new gadget.

  71. @Sam Shama

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around.

    This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn’t follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book. Phil Giraldi has actually read it and has found the opposite: “Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that….”

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it.

    Once again, Resolution 181 was not a “blueprint for peace”, but a blueprint for war. The UN, like the League of Nations before it, in no small part helped to create the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Again, the Arabs were certainly right to reject the proposed partition, which, again, was premised on the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace.

    I don’t know what “efforts to bring peace” you are referring to (again, the UN General Assembly greatly contributed to the conflict by seeking to accommodate the Zionist project by rejecting the rights of the majority population, a direct violation of the Charter under which the Assembly was operating), but this narrative of events assumes legitimacy of the unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel by the Zionist leadership on May 14, 1948. It had none. While the declaration did not define the borders of the territory they were claiming, it did falsely cite Resolution 181 as granting legal authority, thus implying a “Jewish state” within the area of the proposed partition. Yet, as you’ll learn in more detail in the book, at the time the Jewish community owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine. The majority Arab population owned more land in every single district, including Jaffa, which included Tel Aviv.

    The “Jewish state” of Israel was emphatically not established through any legitimate political process, but by violence and the ethnic cleansing of most of the Arab population from their homes. Your characterization of the Arab states as the aggressors is belied by the fact that, by the time they managed to muster a military response after the unilateral and invalid May 14 declaration, a quarter of a million Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed from areas that became part of Israel.

    The UN, of course, like the British, stood by and watched the ethnic cleansing of Palestine unfold, watched as hundreds of thousands of Arabs became refugees as they fled from their homes for fear of further massacres like that at Deir Yassin or were expelled by Zionist forces, and did nothing to stop it. Some “efforts to bring peace”!

    Seems to me you could learn a great deal indeed by reading Obstacle to Peace; namely, how what you think you know about the origins of the conflict just isn’t so.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  72. @Karl

    Karl, you say my statement that the CIA noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai is “incorrect”. The facts are as I’ve stated them. Here’s a relevant excerpt from the book:

    Indeed, on May 23, 1967, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented President Lyndon B. Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that, in the event of war, Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.” In a document titled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR [the United Arab Republic, as Egypt was then known] struck first.” The latter, however, was judged unlikely to occur. The CIA also assessed that the Egyptian military had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel’s military would have little trouble breaching: “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period.” Although the Arabs had numerical superiority in terms of military hardware, “Nonetheless, the IDF maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations.”

    The Mossad nevertheless relayed an intelligence estimate to Washington claiming that Israel would be outgunned. The CIA’s response was to inform policymakers, “We do not believe that the Israeli appreciation … was a serious estimate of the sort they would submit to their own high officials”; rather, it was “probably a gambit intended to influence the US” to “provide military supplies”, “make more public commitments to Israel”, “approve Israeli military initiatives”, and “put more pressure on Nasser.” President Johnson wasn’t buying it; he told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, “All of our intelligence people are unanimous that if the UAR attacks, you will whip hell out of them.” But it was clear to the US intelligence community that it would be Israel, not Egypt, who would start the war. Helms sent a message to Johnson on June 2 correctly predicting that Israel would likely launch its planned attack within a matter of days.

    Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA, had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai.

    • Replies: @Karl
  73. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.

    Quite the irrational lemming you are.

    Jews say those millions went to enormous mass graves which they have not, cannot show us.

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    The massive numbers of so called “survivor$” are living testimony to fraudulence of the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
  74. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one’s fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy – with all its warts – her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    “Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!”, I shall be reminded. “True”, I should then respond, “and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it”. Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should’ve had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the “JEW” flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their’s is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf’s Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @alexander
    , @iffen
    , @Art
  75. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some

    Thank goodness! Sometimes the reading some of your comments elicited worry on my part. I was afraid you could be like some of the poor unfortunate conversos during the Spanish Inquisition. The ones who likely said things like, “Greetings my brothers in Christ. Why the excessive stock of firewood? Are we expecting a severe winter?”

    • Replies: @schmenz
  76. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    [This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn’t follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book.]

    First, avian species can be confusing owing to fervour, in which case the less we speak of logic in these matters the better off we shall remain. Second, ordering the book was in intention more a token of support and less a signal of any expected revelation: histories of my kin, knowledge of the state’s triumphs, tribulations and failures, I concede to none.

    [tb contd....]

  77. schmenz says:
    @iffen

    “The poor unfortunate conversos” who had lots of fun undermining the Church in Spain, coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government, growing filthy rich over the backs of unsuspecting non-converso Spaniards, and even enjoying a little frat party in LaGuardia with a consecrated Host and a young Spanish child.

    You can read it all in Walsh’s “Isabella of Spain” if you want to.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Wizard of Oz
  78. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    If you do believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist as a “democracy” (warts and all) with a substantive Jewish majority, one where they can control their own destiny……..How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    Do the Palestinians not also have the right to a “state” of their own ?

    Don’t Palestinians have a right to build their own ‘democracy’ , warts and all, with a substantive Palestinian majority , where they can control their own destiny ?

    We understand that the collapse of the Peace process has ,for the most part, meant the collapse of the “two state solution”, which ( in reality) is a euphemism for the dissolution of the state of Palestine and the triumph of a Greater Israel over all of Judea and Samaria ?

    Isn’t that what it means ?

    If we are spending any time, here, being honest, isn’t what we are all witnessing is the extermination of the state of Palestine ?

    Isn’t that what is really coming to pass ?

    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Will the Muslim world, as well as the entire world community ever accept this ?

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  79. iffen says:
    @schmenz

    coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government

    It is my understanding that the documentation for this is lacking. That said, it would not be surprising, in fact, should be expected, considering the many documented instances of collaboration by other minority groups with the Muslim invaders, for example, the Copts in Egypt.

    • Replies: @schmenz
  80. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    They are exempted from compulsory military service.

    Don’t you mean prohibited from?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  81. @Wally

    Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Poland. I’ve seen Auschwitz. I’ve seen the crematoria. And despite your lies yes they have found more than one of the mass burial pits in Poland and western Ukraine. People like you are sad little people who never have and never will accomplish anything with their lives so you rant and rave about foolish conspiracies to try and draw attention to themselves. I know it must be tough going through life with an IQ if only 80 or so.

    So I will leave you with a quote from Alois Brunner, Adolph Eichmann’s personal secretary. He escaped to Syria and in his last published interview before he died he was asked if he had any regrets. His only remark was “We didn’t kill enough Jews.”

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Wally
  82. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I continue to be surprised to read about the “obstacles” to peace in Palestine/Israel. After more than one hundred and thirty years of Jewish conquest – crawling and otherwise – why would anyone think that the Jews came to make peace? They came to take over Palestine and that is exactly what they have been doing now for all these years. The conquest has never ended in all of Palestine west of the Jordan river. Israel is a colonialist settlement of a particularly militaristic and dangerous ilk.

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil. The Suez canal after all, was not built for the purposes of a leisurely boat ride but for the purposes of trade and military links between England and her empire in Asia. The acquisition and promotion of Palestine as a colonial settlement has harmed immeasurably and simultaneously, both its local population and the entire Middle East rendering the body politic of the African Asian congruent territories fractured, fragmented and politically and militarily weak states, and in most cases, ineffective vis-a-vis the Jewish state.
    This has always been the purpose of the presence of the Jewish state in Palestine located at the cultural, historical and geo-political crossroad of the region.

    What kind of a peace does the West have in mind? One thing for sure is the requirement that the 1948 expelled Palestinian population, many of whom still remain refugees, relinquish their natural rights to their homeland. A good beginning that is! And why? Because the West and the Jews want it that way.

    The current western framework of discourse concerning Palestine is incorrect, misleading and the proof is in the pudding – it has led to a dead end and it remains a dead end. For the Palestinians unfortunately this is not a metaphor. The powerbrokers could have done whatever they wanted to ameliorate the situation but of course, have not done so as it is simply not in their interests.

    The issue is not whether the actions taken by the US over the years have been good for the US citizenry, because they are not the main concern of its government. Its government has more important interests to serve, and serve them it does.

    To the best of my understanding the only solution is a dissolution of the Jewish state qua state, the recognition of the right of return to the Palestinians, the payment of reparations to the Palestinians and the possibility of a reunion of this part of the Middle East into Al-Shams one again.

    In the present constellation of power, this is a pipe dream. However, if the US loses its power, then the situation on the ground here will most definitely become other than what it is today.

  83. schmenz says:
    @iffen

    Thanks for the reply.

    Actually, all the documentation for it is found in that amazing book I mentioned. When author Walsh was in Spain doing research he found a number volumes of books containing vital information that had never been read since the time of Isabella. He had to take his pen knife and carefully slit open the folded pages.

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    • Replies: @iffen
  84. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Martin Jr.

    > > Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Disney world. I’ve seen a princess’s castle . I’ve sat in a teacup that twirls around, fast. < <

    A twirling teacup and a princess's castle are reflections of a concrete historic reality just as much as Auschwich and crematoria are; all of them are constructed artifacts based on a fantastical narrative spun of a febrile if not demented imagination.

  85. @Mark Green

    America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding.

    If the goyim would wake up and get a clue about how unyielding it is and what the attitudes towards them are, they’d probably perish from shock. I’d say it’s relentless to the point of psychotic obsession. It certainly is a phenomenon to behold.

    Sometimes I think the only hope for us untermenschen is their constant hatred for one another, but then I wake up.

    The inimitable and very worthwhile Uri Avnery does a fine job of describing the loathing in this short article.:

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1469209537

  86. @Anonymous

    Now those are comments with substance!

    While I have held this view for some time, I have never before seen or heard it expressed.:

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil.

    Plus it’s undoubtedly a haven for the international mafia, which, unfortunately for religious Jews, seems to have misappropriated the label so’s to play the victim card.

    There must be a reason that some things are never mentioned! ;)

    • Replies: @dissident israeli
  87. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy.

    Why is there no Labor party in Israel – the one party that at least made noises about peace? Politics in Israel are controlled by Zionists and that means no peace. The tie to your vibrant Jewish democracy is hate for its non-Jew citizens and neighbors. That Jewish character weakness, extends also to each other. (Israel will implode one day.)

    Israel politics is just like American politics – no matter who you vote for – the outcome is the same. More power for the Big Jews.

    “Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!”, I shall be reminded. “True”, I should then respond, “and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it”.

    So you are saying that Israel does not need AIPAC and the ADL – that is total BS. Without the backing of the US government, Israel would be under total sanctions by the UN. No one would trade with it.

    Sorry Sam, but your comment is feel good poppycock sunshine BS – yada yada yada.

    Art

  88. iffen says:
    @schmenz

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    I have bought it for my e-reader.

    I have to finish the book that I am reading now and SPQR is definitely next in line. After that I will give consideration to Isabella.

  89. @Anonymous

    You might consider a good psychiatrist.

  90. “Israel refused to recognize an Israeli nationality at the country’s establishment in 1948, making an unusual distinction between “citizenship” and “nationality.” Although all Israelis qualify as “citizens of Israel,” the state is defined as belonging to the “Jewish nation,” meaning not only the 5.6 million Israeli Jews but also more than seven million Jews in the diaspora.

    Critics say the special status of Jewish nationality has been a way to undermine the citizenship rights of non-Jews in Israel, especially the fifth of the population who are Arab. Some 30 laws in Israel specifically privilege Jews, including in the areas of immigration rights, naturalization, access to land and employment.

    Arab leaders have also long complained that indications of “Arab” nationality on ID cards make it easy for police and government officials to target Arab citizens for harsher treatment.”

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/lawsuit-challenges-israels-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767

  91. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    The 2SS is realistically dead. I would say that were it to be considered seriously, land swaps and a fund with ample resources are critically indicated. However I think the Pals would make a hash of it. Its a tall order.

    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Alexander, I cringe at words like ‘extermination’. I suppose worldview, save those held tenaciously by a small group of determined souls is rather fickle. As I have always stated, Jewish populations had prospered and arguably enjoyed its golden years under Muslim rule, though I hardly think the poisoned environment today, would allow a large muslim majority to cohabit with Jews in a common nation-state, thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Not necessarily.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Art
  92. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Minorities are exempted, but volunteers [there are considerable numbers and all muslim soldiers can take their oaths using the Koran] are accepted; indeed there are minority units for Bedouim, while Druzim and Christians serve alongside Jewish soldiers in many groups.

  93. imbroglio says:

    Let’s assume the worst of Israel as Girardi always does. IAIF: It’s all…

    Are the two states to be geographic entities? If so, what land mass shall each entity occupy? Perhaps the U.N. or some international consensus will delineate these geographical entities based on… UN Resolution 242? The pre-1967 borders? Something else? And what are the proper boundaries of Palestine within which Israel will form a part and a Palestinian state will form the remainder? The Balfour map? The Sykes/Picot map? Biblical Palestine?

    Or are the two states to occupy the same land mass with Israelis being citizens of Israel and Palestinians being citizens of Palestine, two nations under one geographical roof, a Middle Eastern, pre-Pakistani Punjab?

    Both arrangements could theoretically work.

    What goes unsaid in these polemics posing as analyses is the belief shared by many, including some number of Palestinians, that Israel is an abscess on the body of Dar el Islam whose existence cannot be tolerated under any circumstances. The Palestinians may be the darlings of the anti-Israel crowd, but they’re not the darlings of their Arab and Persian neighbors. They’re caught in the crossfire of competing hegemons neither of which is the U.S./Israel and would continue to be caught in the crossfire if Israel were gone up in smoke. A Palestinian Palestine, with or without Israel for a neighbor and with America far away and no longer involved, may likely be a failed state from the get go, dependent, for its survival, on those who may not have its well-being at heart.

    And what about amnesty for the Israeli settlers who may find themselves incorporated into a Palestinian state geographically defined? Make it to the U.S., establish residence here for some time, start a family, learn English, become a Tejano or Calijano and you’ve become an American “on the ground.” Fine. Let’s see if there’ll be the same welcome for Palestinian Jews.

  94. @nickels

    I share your supposition in that regard.

  95. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    So basically the “Two State solution ” is dead.

    But really what you are saying is ….. the State of Palestine is dead.

    Because we both know the state of Israel is very much alive, very powerful ,and more than capable of defending itself .

    It is really just one state, the state of Palestine , which is being eradicated .

    No?

    Hence the ‘extermination’ of the state of Palestine is REALLY what we are talking about,when we discuss the death of the “two state solution”.

    Although you may cringe at the use of the word…it is the correct word to use.

    The state of Israel is systematically ‘exterminating’ the state of Palestine.

    or ….Israel(and its illegal settlement enterprise) has , more or less ,exterminated the state of Palestine in the exact same way the Nazi’s exterminated the Jews ?

    And I suppose, quite tragically, Israel, in achieving its “greater state”, has had to become everything it has always most despised.

    No?

    Isn’t this the truth of the matter, Sam, however much it might make you “cringe”……. to say so?

    If its not, how isn’t it?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  96. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.

    Lemming Joe loves his Potemkin Village of “Auschwitz”.

    Actually my IQ was tested at 152, and yours, Joe?

    No one says there weren’t labor camps and crematorium for typhus abatement, so what, Joe?

    The Allies had labor camps for Japanese/Americans, crematoriums exist in every town, small and large, so what, Joe?

    There is only the typical Zionist lies of finding mass graves.

    There is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Read the facts about the laughable & impossible ‘gas chambers’:
    Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

    see:
    Alois Brunner debunked here:

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9071

    Think you know what your talking about? Have an enormous ‘mass grave to show everyone? Then do it.
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Step up and be a man, Joe.

  97. @Jacques Sheete

    Actually some of the religious Jews ARE the Mafia. And yes, you are right. It is not by accident that the so-called “Balfour Declaration” was a letter addressed to Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschild were most definitely the leading international bankers at the time, that is to say in 1917. And they might still be. My thinking is that actually Palestine was promised to THEM, as bankers whose function is to producer credit at interest for governments out of thin air, through the privately-owned central banks which are linked through the Bank of International Settlement in Basel, Switzerland.

    Owning a country – Israel – provided, and provides them with powers no other banking family or banking concern has – until today. And it provides cover for whatever nefarious dealings they have – eg funding DAESH etc.

  98. skrik says:

    Given their predilection for ‘interventions’ (= illegal invasions) to murder for spoil, dissident israeli’s ‘geo-strategic’ ambitions of F+UK/US/Zs as part-explanation can be provisionally accepted.

    Evidence: 1st Zionist Congress, Pre-WW1 conversion of British war-ships to oil and the Gallipoli imbroglio (both Churchill), the disgraceful Balfour declaration, US “stupendous source of strategic power” and ‘mini-me-too’ French (i.e. Sykes–Picot, say).

    Given their predilection for lying and cheating, the ‘murdering for soil’ ambitions of Jews as part-explanation can be provisionally accepted.

    Evidence: Herzl’s coveting = dispossession by “expropriation,” Jabotinsky’s ‘colonisation by force’ and Ben-Gurion’s actual outright admission: “We must see the situation for what it is. … we are the attackers and the Arabs are those defending themselves. They are living in the country and own the land, …”

    Given the *non-semite* origins of Askenazis (self-converted ‘Judaic’ reffos from the steppes north of the Caucasus), the ‘ancestral lands’ and especially ‘god promised it to us’ memes are seen to be not just as some sort of ‘errors’ but totally cynical, filthy lies.

    Evidence: Turco Finn by race, *no* god.

    Then, ‘legals:’

    Land is ‘alienable’ but only by free and fair exchange.

    “A fair exchange is no robbery” + “Don’t touch things not yours” + “Thou shalt not steal” plus finally “Thieves may never prosper” means that the I/J/Z-plex perpetrators (heirs and successors), ditto accessories (living off the proceeds of crime (= all non-native residents in the ‘illegitimate entity’), criminal supporters (= rogue-regimes like F+UK/US, corrupt&venal MSM+PFBCs plus hasbarats, sayanim and other such trolls etc.)) to be arrested, tried then punished.

    As Mr Hammond wrote, UNGA181 did not apportion any land to any alien invaders but more, was refused consideration by the UNSC and so *is not law*. Also, those aggressive, unwanted immigrants only managed to purchase a miserable ~6% of pre-Herzl Palestine, mostly of poor quality at extortionate prices from ‘absentee landlords;’ the natives mainly refused to sell. Now, inalienable rights in UDHR:

    Article 3.
    • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
    Article 17.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
    • (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

    Lemma: inalienable adjective unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.

    Refer also to UNSC242, inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.

    Fazit: The Palestinian ELO/Os (= erstwhile legal owner/occupiers) *may not* surrender, neither their property nor their lives, nor may their land be improperly alienated = non-native interlopers to vacate their squats = leave. My suggestion: RoR+R*3 = Right of Return + Revest, Reparations and Reconciliation which roughly parallels applicable UNGA194 bits, usually re-passed yearly.

    Musing: As Oscar Peterson points out above, as long as the ‘balance of power’ remains in rogue-regime = criminal tyrants’ hands, no improvement can be expected. Therefore, the most important Q is: Where is the decent, countervailing (non-violent) force-for-good?

  99. schmenz says:
    @Anonymous

    Thank you for this brutally honest evaluation.

  100. @Wally

    I don’t engaged with the mentally deranged.

  101. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    Shama has finally shown his true Jew colors.

    He believes that the worlds Jews can get away with obliterating Palestine. “Not necessarily” says it all.

    Shama has been conning us all this time. His expressed sympathies for Palestinians were lies.

    He thinks his Jew controlled US government and MSM can surmount a backlash against his Jew tribe. That in the long run, people will not disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine.

    Never ever trust the words of a Jew.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  102. Lee says:

    There can never be peace between Israel and the Palestinians regardless of who the Palestinian leader is. Arafat stated to Bill Clinton after the Oslo Peace talks when 98% of what Arafat wanted had been agreed by the Jews he stated ‘my religion does not permit me to recognise Israel’. Why is this ? because the Koran states that once land has Muslims living on it, it becomes Islamic territory FOREVER.
    A year ago ISIS stated their next objective was to reclaim the ISLAMIC TERRITORY of the Iberian Peninsular (Spain)! QED

  103. Lee says:
    @MMM

    No, conflict starts against Jews but is ignored this hatred just grows until it engulfs everyone by which time millions have died. It is similar to the millions of Christians being killed by Muslims in Indonesia, Mali, Nigeria Somalia, Pakistan, recently Bangladesh and the World stays silent. There is enough hatred in our World without writing books that encourage it.
    Answer me this question: Gaza 2008 all the Jews ethnically cleansed, roads, houses and infrastructure left intact. a lot of financial Aid given to Gaza by UN/US/EEC. All utilities gas, water etc supplied by Israel. All the crossings open. Three weeks later the first rocket into Israel FROM Gaza.WHY??

    • Replies: @richard vajs
  104. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I’ll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn’t inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Art
    , @alexander
  105. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hi Sam,

    I have been following your comments. I find it impossible to reconcile the following two statements by you.

    I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    thus my opposition to a RoR.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  106. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.
    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    RoR if it applies to all potential claimants ex- [Israel+WB] will easily cause havoc.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @iffen
  107. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    p.s. Once again Shama cunningly and hopelessly points to NO solution but extinction of the Palestinian people – the fascist Zionist Jew solution.

  108. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.

    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    Once again Shama offers smoke – the Zionist government will NEVER give full rights to Palestinians. Israel would have to stop being Zionist.

    Here is Shama’s solution:

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  109. Incitatus says:

    I wish I could say there’s a lot new in this article.
    • The US Government is in bed with Likkud Israel (big surprise there);
    • The US Press filters out the Palestinian view (again big surprise);
    • The US Press routinely adopts pejorative terminology (terrorist, terror tunnels, etc);
    • The US Press favors Israel and has long abandoned attempts to fairly portray the situation;
    • Peace talks are phony PR routines enabling irrevocable colonization;

    US aid to Israel is a nexus of US subsidies for US defense industries. Israel is our proxy. We furnish weapons and ordinance gratis. We protect Israel at the UN and elsewhere when they use those weapons. Should it be a surprise that Israel’s easiest choice in dealing with unpleasant neighbors and unruly occupied peoples is force? American subsidizes force – not peace. Why? Because it benefits the same companies that produce bloated, dysfunctional weapons like the F-35 and Littoral Combat ship.

    Colt Arms built a whole Hartford neighborhood based on weapons. The demise of the Plains Indians in the late 19C followed. Sound familiar? We’re subsidizing Israelis to do the same to the Palestinians. What a surprise.

    Want to reform Israel? Fine. Maybe reforming ourselves is the place to start.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Sam Shama
  110. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    “Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes”

    Hi Sam,

    No slick Italian loafers & ubiquitous off-the-rack, overpriced Armanis?
    Couldn’t agree more
    But surely
    John Lobb and Anderson & Sheppard?
    Question:
    Harvie & Hudson or Tunbull & Asser?

    To say nothing of Montecristo #1s from Robert Lewis in St. James.
    Fond memories from the 70s-80s.

    All the best.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  111. @Lee

    Lee,
    Have you ever wondered why if Israel controls Occupied Palestine’s borders, why would Israel block food stuff like macaroni and building material such as cement but let in rocket parts? Seriously, Israel will not allow the Palestinians to have sufficient calories in foods like macaroni – (better they should be physically weak); or allow in cement -( better they should live in destroyed hovels like wild dogs); yet let in rocket fuel and steering components. Of course, the truth is that rocket parts are not let in. So where do the rockets come from?
    The obvious truth is that Israel makes these rockets and launches them themselves. A few IDF troops go out into the desert and covertly launch these crude rockets into portions of Israel where the rockets can do no harm. And then—- the Israeli officials (knowing the whole farce) determine that the Palestinians must pay (again). This is the cue for Israeli jets to go bomb the s-it out of unarmed Palestine and the cue to the Deadbeat “settlers” to go rip off some more land.
    I have relatives living in Israel – they are mooching, lying bastards without honor. They will eventually have the whole deal to themselves – and what a piece of justice that will be – having to live and fight with a–holes just like themselves.

  112. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    Art,

    Still selling the same-old, same-old? Isn’t it exhausting?

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    • Sunspots;
    • Global Climate Change;
    • MIddle Age Hair Loss:
    • Takata Air Bag Failures;
    • Tooth Decay and Cavities;
    • The ZIka Virus;
    • Sink Holes in Florida;
    • Bad Breath;
    • Corns and Warts;

    Well, you get the idea.

    Remember, the Reichsminister expects all caps, and a lot more frequently.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Sam Shama
  113. William says:
    @anon

    Many countries, especially poor, third world countries, commit barbarities. Savagery is not isolated to the Middle East. But there is a significant difference between the Sudan or Papua New Guinea and Israel. Israel is composed of Jews from around the world, most from the highly civilized and educated countries of Europe or from the U.S. or from Russia and Eastern Europe generally. Many Jewish scientists educated in major universities world wide now teach in world class universities in Israel.This is an advantage of enormous proportions.
    Another major difference is that the U.S. has made Israel a major military power and provides significant financial support. Many third world countries still struggle to attain a modicum of modern civilization, but Israel, highly educated and politically supported by the U.S. is a bitter, brutal, un-civilized barbaric occupier of lands conquered with the most modern weapons of war, all supplied by the U.S. Most Americans don’t know it, but I, along with most of the world, see Israel as a pernicious, war-like, aggressive little nation preening itself on power supplied by an ignorant America. Israel is the state that doesn’t fit in anywhere. Only Israel has to wall itself off against the rest of the world, relying on airlines for entrance and egress. Nothing lasts forever, and the bloody history of Israel demonstrates this clearly. Exile and finally destruction by Rome should remind us that history repeats itself. Sometimes a country may fatten on stolen lands or spoils of conquest, but eventually things change. And I am afraid that in the coming years, Israel very harsh reprisals willforce Israel to repent of its barbarism.

  114. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I don’t understand how a person could be considered to have “full rights” if they are unable to return to ancestral land from which they have been driven.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Wizard of Oz
  115. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    Poor Shama – he was upset when I repeated what I heard the Little Jew hasbaras chanting in the basement of Hasbara Central — JEW, JEW, JEW.

    I asked him why he was upset with the use of capital letters.

    As is most often the case, he did not answer my perfectly innocent question. (I think he resents someone asking him (a mighty Jew) any question about his behavior.)

    Poor Little Jew Shama – he is so smart – but when it comes to Israel he is always let down by Israeli behavior – they are always on the wrong side modern history. It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.

    • Replies: @L.K
  116. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Hi Incitatus,

    In fairness we owe this wonderfully diverting sidebar to our fellow-in-arms S2C. “Wherefore I touch silver to crystal: you Sir, are hereby recognised for providing a relief deeply sought”

    John Lobb, oh god of course. Couldn’t do better. They used to make bespoke paddocks [equestrian] and I still have my old pair from a decade ago. Indestructible.

    Anderson and Sheppard. Ditto. “Kingsman: the secret service” shot in premises I believe. A ‘must own’ which I don’t, and need to remedy that deficit.

    Harv & Hud or ‘Bull & Ass? Both terrific but feet to fire I’d favour the former.

    Montechristo #1, paired with a [suitably young :-) ] McCallan or Balvenie? ! Heavenly.

    btw, do you perhaps know Widow Jane? Astonishing Bourbon I tried recently, and quid for quid, unbeatable.

    Cheers.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Incitatus
  117. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hi Iffen,
    Have you looked at the numbers and what that entails? Sure I could be disingenuous and tell you why not, let everyone that can claim ancestral lineage in [and honestly I've often thought "why not?"]

    Reality might intrude. Mexico owned some small portion of land out there in the west didn’t they? Would you, could you, let them all be neighbours in your ‘hood mon ami? [wouldn't that blurry your little peeps?]

    • Replies: @iffen
  118. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    LOL. I see see you are responding to dear old Art. I had clapped in irons and back to the ‘CTI’ gaol last week.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  119. L.K says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus, thinking itself ‘smart’, goes: “Israel is our proxy”

    Cute! Where did u learn that, Chomsky?

    Try ‘Zusa is Israel’s bitch & a Zio playground’, and you’ll be a little closer to the actual facts.

    Having read a few of your posts I gotta tell you you are full of shit.

    But you knew that already.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  120. @Sam Shama

    Soviet policy was to liquidate the educated Poles. At first, Soviet authorities called on the peasants, who were predominantly Ukrainian or Belorussian, to “settle accounts” with Polish landlords and take what they wanted. This led to a short but brutal period of murder and robbery perpetrated by the worst elements. At the same time, Soviet NKVD (security) officers shot many Polish landowners, officers, teachers, priests, judges, administrators, policemen, border guards, etc., out of hand, according to lists prepared beforehand. …
    Some Jews, especially young men and women with Communist sympathies, cooperated with the Soviets. They became prominent in the new local militia and helped Soviet authorities in hunting down Polish political leaders and administrators. These pro-Communist Jews were highly visible in oppressing the Poles.

    Historian Peter Stachura offers the following perspective on these events:

    Polish attitudes towards the Jews, however, may well have been negatively shaped, in the first instance, by irrefutable evidence that comparatively large numbers of them in Eastern Poland not only rejoiced in 1939 at the fall of the Second Republic but also welcomed with enthusiasm the invading Red Army. Jews of this type willingly became officials of the Soviet regime there, becoming involved in the widespread reprisals and atrocities that were committed against ethnic Poles, especially those of the educated and propertied classes. As Soviet Bolshevik commissars, believing that the day of their national and class liberation had arrived, these Jews often proved to be the most fanatical, intent on the effective de-polonisation of the Eastern Provinces.

    Apparently, for the British in 1939, “boots on the ground” meant they sent shoes to fulfill their commitment to defend Poland.

    Let’s take a poll: what shoes did Sam Shama’s Jewish fellow tribesmen wear as they killed Poles?

    1. Grenson Albert
    2. John Lobb *
    3. John Lobb paddocks (equestrian) for when the blood ran particularly deep
    4. Anderson & Sheppard

    Hugo Boss outfitted the Wehrmacht.
    Did Jews wore Gieves and Hawkes as they slaughtered Poles?

    1. Yes, in gratitude to Britain for putting boots on the ground
    2. No, Gieves & Hawkes is bourgeoisie; no self-respecting Communist killer would so disgrace himself.

    What shirt is most suitable for Jews on a fanatic killing spree?

    1. Harvie & Hudson
    2. Tunbull & Asser

    Should a fine Montecristo #1 be indulged before the slaughter, or after the blood has run?

    1. Before
    2. After

    Which malt whiskey should accompany that smoke after you’ve smoked your quota of Poles?
    1. McCallan
    2. Balvenie

    Finally, since surely no high-class Jew like Sam Shama would want to give offense, should a Jew consider it in bad taste to celebrate the slaughter of the flower of Polish manhood by drinking Widow Jane, an Astonishing Bourbon?

  121. L.K says:
    @Art

    Art: “It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.”

    Hey Art,

    That is correct,
    one of the zio’s “new” tactic is to say things like: ‘ oh, so what if we took the Palestinian’s lands? Human History is full of cases of conquest, yada, yada’.

    That was then, this is now. It so happens that when the zionist entity of israel was created trough wars of conquest, terrorism and ethnic cleansing, such things had already been outlawed by International Law.

    Of course, jew supremacists don’t give a damn about International Law… neither does D.C.
    Perfect partners in crime.

    The destruction that we see in Syria now, is also to a decisive degree a result of zio schemes.

    The zionists are fully behind this whole synthetic ‘War on Terror’, 100% zio manufactured.

    These folks r 100% certified scum!

  122. L.K says:

    P.Giraldi wrote:

    The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.

    You may have missed the work done by Grant F. Smith:

    Spy Trade: How Israel’s Lobby Undermines America’s Economy

    https://www.amazon.com/Spy-Trade-Israels-Undermines-Americas/dp/0976443716/ref=la_B001JRXLHM_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472790089&sr=1-3

    In the midst of both the Iran-Contra affair and the Jonathan Pollard espionage incident, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the Israeli embassy conducted a spectacular clandestine operation against American industries and workers; it has so far cost the US economy $71 billion and a hundred thousand jobs each year by shutting down or diverting US exports. More than a dissection of the tactics used by Israel and its lobby to evade justice, Spy Trade provides strategies for ending criminal immunity and restoring American governance.

  123. @Art

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    If you care to answer relevantly remember that the disturbance you were prima facie referring to was near eternal war.

    As I haven’t studied the context properly I can’t be sure what counts for you as the destruction of Palestine. There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps you mean that the descendants of the Arab people living in the British/UN Mandate Palestine before 1948** who are unwillingly landless and denied any rights within Israel will find it finally certain because of Israeli opposition that they will never have one or two substantial connected territories in which one or two independent political entities can prosper under their own good givernment. Is that it? Then who is going to maintain the eternal war at any level beyond what occurs in the occupied territories/West Bank now? Or is that level of violence on both sides what you have in mind? How does it compare with the situation in Kashmir by the way? Do you think someone other than the Indians and Pakistanis is going to disturb themselves because of that stand off which dates back to 1948?

    **You could take 1967 as an alternative starting point.

    • Replies: @Art
  124. @Wally

    Your claim to a 152 IQ might be bad for your credit on UR but it could be just the right starting point if you wanted to conceive, research, promote and manage what David Irving and others have failed to do, namely the overthrow of the accepted Holocaust story. Surely you could go to the Iranians and point out that now they have their money back from the Great Satan they can afford to fund the overthrow of one of Zionism’s supporting myths. And “here I am” you might say “with a one in a thousand + IQ and peer reviewed publications to back my claims as an evaluator of evidence I offer you the chance to overthrow the great Zionist myth for no more than $10 million (less than a reconnaisance aircraft) to fund my research team”.

    So what would have to be read and followed up with whatever kind of investigation was appropriate?

    The Wannsee conference would be a big one and all its supposedly validating connections dating back to all the anti-Jewish laws and further to Mein Kampf.

    Then there would be the best stats available on pre 1940 and post WW2 Jewish population in Europe.

    All the transcripts of trial evidence, all known and relevant diaries on both (all) sides; transcripts of the recorded conversations of German POWs of the British.

    Tens of tihousands of personal accounts including those by prison guards.

    Orders for chemicals to IG Farben etc. Train timetables and records which were for apparently non military purposes.

    All the photos and accounts of mass shootings by or in areas controlled by the Nazis.

    There’s a lot of stuff which needs to be overturned to destroy the essential Holocaust story. So why not send a prospectus to Teheran and start recruiting your research team?

    • Replies: @Wally
  125. @Anonymous

    For want of sufficient interest in the subject it had not occurred to me to consider what the non humanitarian interests of the original financiers of Zionist settlement might have been. An obvious question to ask of course.

    A less general question is whether the local population was harmed by the original Zionist settlements? What is the evidence for that?

    As I understand it quite a lot of Arabs were attracted to “Palestine” by the business created by the Zionists. If so, are you saying that was harmful to “locals”?

    Styling yourself “dissident israeli” is intriguing. Are you Jewish or Arab or a mixture? :-)

  126. @Anonymous

    Since “Anonymous” could be the pseudonym of more than one person it is surely reasonable to expect an honest commenter to use the Anon or equivalent moniker only for the kind of legitimate reason that our host outlined long ago. That would typically be to maintain cordial relations between academic colleagues when a dissenting view is being expressed: not when just delivering free wheeling insult.

  127. @schmenz

    As I thought that conversos became such long after any Muslim invasions I looked at the Wikipedia and Britannica accounts and I am still surprised by your implied chronology.

    Most Jews converted apparently after pogroms in Christian Spain in 1391 but were discriminated against anyway therafter, and even after the expulsion of the remaining unconverted Jews in 1492. As they tended to be urban doctors, lawyers and merchants much more than those of pure gentile descent it is not particularly surprising

    • Replies: @schmenz
  128. @nickels

    Is that the same as saying that it is 99.99 per cent certain that there will be no peace or merely 99 per cent certain?

  129. @TJM

    “AMERICA HAD NO ENEMIES…” So the creation of Israell triggered the blockade of Berlin and need for the air lift???

  130. @iffen

    15 or even 12 years is a fairly common period for limitation of legal action to recover land. Usual exceptions include the plaintiff being under a disability so that time only begins to run when the potential plaintiff ceases to be under a disability – typically turning 18 or 21.

    You might say that the Palestinian refugees were and are effectively under a disability but, though I am merely speculating, i suspect that the correct analysis is that they could have sued in an Israeli court even without being in Israel (and is there any chance they would NOT have been able to engage an Israeli lawyer on a contingency fee?) but that the real problem was that they had no provable titles to the land. Very few people did under the Ottomans and I don’t know how that may have changed under the mandate.

    In the end compensation for deprivation of their land would be the right remedy because the very existence of compulsory acquisition powers by governments shows that private ownership is not absolutely sacrosanct against the public good and it would be hard to argue that the public good was best served by taking the Jewish owned farm, with or without compensation, and dividing it 10 ways per stirpes amongst the descendants of the deceased Palestinian farmer who was dispossessed in1948.

  131. @Sam Shama

    Art’s relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Sam Shama
    , @Incitatus
  132. Incitatus says:
    @L.K

    Ah, the reptilian L.K slithers into view.

    I’m sorry I’ve disappointed you. I’m a great fan of yours. You’ve been quite muted lately. Bund meetings keeping you too busy? White sheets and hood at the cleaners? Cutting timber for cross burning taking most of your time?

    I congratulate you on such a clear demonstration of the inverse relationship between hate and brains – you’re amply endowed with the former and not much of the latter.

    But you knew that already.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  133. schmenz says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Relying on Wikipedia is probably not the best idea if you want cold, hard historical facts. In the world of Wikipedia the Jews are always suffering pogroms and their persecutors are always Christians. History is not so simple as that. Better to rely on the work of men who would spend literally years digging out the facts.

    Walsh isn’t the only author who has dispelled the infamous Black Legend against Spain but he is certainly one of the most thorough.

    • Replies: @iffen
  134. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.

    What a disgusting notion.

    Australia — isn’t that the place that you might call Britain’s garbage pit? Where proper Brits — those fine folks who Napoleon called a ‘nation of shopkeepers’ — dumped their unwanted, incapable, and incorrigible? Did they fetch a good price from some “rich Jews”?

    Embedded in Muslim culture is the notion of hospitality: people are human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  135. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hi Sam,

    Agree on Harvie & Hudson. Some of mine, perfectly serviceable, are over 40 years old!

    Never got into single malts I’m ashamed to say. Especially since UDV was a client years ago. Fun to show up in their office on Thursdays at 4 (product tasting time for staff and guests). They had some pretty exotic nectar, but I had too little time to capitalize on the educational opportunity.

    I’ll keep on lookout for Widow Jane

    All the best.

  136. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hi Sam,

    In your comment #92, you make the point that in the present,(not some time in the future) the “two state solution” is realistically dead.

    Which we both understand as saying the State of Palestine is dead.

    Are you saying, now, it’s NOT ?

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?

    Is this a modern day version of (Palestinian State) “holocaust denial” with the shoe now on the other foot ?

    Isn’t it the gods honest truth , that nobody, today, is going to move even ONE settler out of Palestine (understood as east of the green line.)

    Are you going to ?

    Is King Bibi ?

    Is Prince Avigdor ?

    Is Princess Ayelet ?

    Is Queen Hillary or King Donald ?

    My understanding, as of yesterday, is that not only are the settlements NOT being dismantled , but actually fully “legalized”, by Israel,(for whatever that’s worth) and there are hundreds more in tow.

    So ‘Greater’ Israel has , indeed, exterminated ‘untermenchen’ Palestine.

    Is that correct , Sam ?

    (I suppose we could, each of us, encapsulate this in more flowery prose….but what for ?)

    And if it is the case, what is the moral to the story ?

    What should we teach our children ?

    You seem to muster an acknowledgement that Palestinians should have some ‘rights’ within the newly formed Greater Israel.

    But why feel that way if you cannot even muster the Palestinians ‘right’ to have their own ‘state’ ?

    Why not just let the permanent underclass of Palestinians roam around, stateless, homeless, and without any rights ,whatsoever ?

    Like a virtual army of the living dead ?

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Sam Shama
  137. @Anon

    There are both factual and logical problem with your reply and I suspect that you are trying out for a place on the Rehmat team. But let me just test you with this: was the Baathist tyrant Saddam Hussein your idea of someone who embodied, exhibited or was likely to be ruled by the virtuous notions in your last paragraph?

  138. iffen says:
    @schmenz

    There are two separate questions to answer here.

    Did the Jews aid the initial Muslim conquest?

    Did the Jews (as conversos) seek to undermine the Reconquista?

    • Replies: @schmenz
  139. @Incitatus

    Why do you think he knows it?

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  140. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Actually, we have had a mestizo family in the hood for a couple of years. They seem to be devoted family people; little Pepe never plays in the street unless a parent is right there.

    I think a case can be made that pre 1948 is different from post 1948. We can put the former in the forced relocations as a result of WWII. Although, at some point a line has to be drawn. Can we put the 1990 Balkans into that category? I think that it is difficult to justify the later and current WB dislocations.

  141. schmenz says:
    @iffen

    While Isabella was fighting the Muslim hordes in Spain many prominent Jews, both the conversos and the marranos, were in fact conniving with the invaders. Jewish Conversos were, at least in a general sense, initially believers but under the influence of the “marranos” reverted back to their Jewish belief and practices. The Jewish (and Muslim) marranos on the other hand were false Christians and only outwardly converted for the benefits it would bring them and for the cover it would give them while they worked to undermine the State.

    Like recommending a good Hitchcock movie I don’t want to say too much and “give away the ending” so I hope you find time to read Walsh.

    Walsh in his books is not attempting to create hatred between Christians and Jews but merely to set the record straight. For that reason alone his books are well worth studying.

  142. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Every word true. I used to get rather choleric on this subject [the US-Israel arms nexus] when I was younger, but the years and a better study of history, cured my zeal; pity I lost that warm glow of self-indulgent piety though.

    My comment earlier this year:

    http://www.unz.com/imercer/trump-doesnt-need-to-talk-like-a-conservative/#comment-1363155

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  143. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Hi Wiz & Iffen #141
    Compensation is a sound idea for Palestinians displaced in 1948. I don’t presume you read all my posts, but if you did, I am, gently put, somewhat emotional on the subject. I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers who would not countenance a recognition of the Pals as genetic cousins, being deaf and mute as well, when compensation is mentioned. Its equally [and understandably] true that tens of thousands with dubious claims seek shelter in Israel. The populations which currently dwell in the WB, have, imho, strong claims for citizenship; they are de facto citizens and Israel is charged with their welfare. However, the state cannot admit greater numbers from neighbouring Arab nations. For them, strong verification and compensation is indicated. I have approached institutions and individuals which might have influence, the sentiment returned is ambivalent at best, economic recovery in EZ and US, stated as pivotal factors.

    • Replies: @iffen
  144. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers

    What’s going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Sam Shama
  145. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen

    “What’s going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?”

    ask Greasy William

  146. L.K says:

    Given the trend of lies/obfuscation/propaganda carried out by Jews and their operatives re how the zio settler entity came about, it is always important to tell the truth about it.
    Alan Hart, a former BBC reporter and author of several books on the israel/Palestine conflict, had this to say on its creation:

    [...]In the name of pragmatism, willingness to “merely to recognise” Israel – meaning to accept and live in peace with an Israel inside its pre-June ’67 borders – has long been the formal Palestinian and all-Arab position. Why does it stop short of recognising Israel’s “right to exist”, and why, really, does it matter so much to Zionism that Palestinians recognise this right?

    The answer is in the following.

    According to history as written by the winner, Zionism, Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN Partition Resolution of 29 November 1947. This is propaganda nonsense.

    - In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.
    -Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a proposal – meaning that it could have no effect, would not become policy, unless approved by the Security Council.
    -The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the U.S. knew that, if approved, it could only be implemented by force given the extent of Arab and other Muslim opposition to it; and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.
    -So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine – after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away, effectively surrendering to Zionist terrorism – was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the U.S. was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence – actually in defiance of the will of the organised international community, including the Truman administration.
    The truth of the time was that the Zionist state, which came into being mainly as a consequence of pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist UNLESS … Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

    And that legitimacy was the only thing the Zionists could not and cannot take from the Palestinians by force.[...]

  147. L.K says:

    The excelent book by Alison Weir, ‘Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel’, should be mandatory reading to understand how already back then the zio power configuration managed to overun the opinion of top US diplomatic and military experts, who were against the creation of ‘Israel’ in Palestine as something that would hurt US national interests:

    Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts.

    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Better-Judgment-History/dp/149591092X/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=19JR3DHTRA4PJXH5607X

    The following excellent historical summary of what transpired in Palestine can be found @ Weir’s website;

    http://ifamericansknew.org/history/

    Take a look at the map showing the loss of Palestinian land since 1947!

    Another important book was written by Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe, titled ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’.

    Renowned Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe’s groundbreaking book revisits the formation of the State of Israel. Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.

    https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472836869&sr=1-1

  148. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently.

    • Replies: @Art
  149. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire.

    Hey Wiz,

    Weasel words.

    Here are the realities of your non-people – of your people with no identity.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv’s use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists.

    more:

    Tell us jerk — who’s children are being tortured?

    7,000,000,000 people say they are Palestinian.

    Can you see no wrong – are you human – do you Jew share any morals with humanity?

    Art

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  150. L.K says:

    Also, Israel is hardly self-sufficient; it has aways been heavily subsidized.
    One historian wrote:

    “Israel has never been self-supporting. It has always required massive subsidies from the outside – above all from the United States. Total direct US aid to Israel has amounted to well over $140 billion (in 2003 dollars). In addition, Germany and other European states and companies have paid out many billions in ‘restitution,’ and wealthy Jewish communities, especially in the US, have provided substantial financial assistance.”

    The above is actually just a part of it, there is much more.
    Take a look at the info in the new book ‘Big Israel: How Israel’s Lobby Moves America’, by Grant F. Smith.

    While some informed voters know the U.S. provides more foreign aid to Israel than any other country, the total flow of charitable, tax dollar, military aid, intelligence and “opportunity cost” are unknown to those footing the bill—and the lobby is determined to keep it that way.[...]
    Big Israel reveals how staid, respectable and bona fide social welfare organizations transformed themselves into a networked lobby for a foreign country—inflicting immense damage on average Americans.

  151. @Art

    That’s rather a long snd rambling way of saying “Yes” to my assimption about who you meant. But what about answering the more difficult questions?

    • Replies: @Art
  152. Art says:
    @alexander

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?

    alexander,

    A great comment. No reply from the hasbara shock troops.

    They can never answer the truth of Zionism and fascist Israel, can they?

    They have a thousand million weasel words – but two short truthful sentences stymies them.

    Not a lifetime of schooling at Hasbara U (Jew culture) can dispel the evil that is Israel.

    Art

    • Replies: @alexander
  153. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently. (i.e., Israeli citizens)

    Those “truly good” Jews voted for no peace.

    Their supreme leader, their Biggest Jew – Netanyahu – said “NO peace with the Palestinians” and the Little Jews voted for him in droves.

    Mr. Shama is so proud of them.

    He wants a Zionist final solution just as they do.

    • Replies: @L.K
  154. Wally says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    Laughable nonsense.

    Each & every one of your slimy Zionist manufactured points has been debunked in spades, but you haven’t the balls to debate. You’re a coward.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    http://www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable ‘holocaust’ storyline is the message.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  155. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    When the Zionist Jews obliterate Palestine – will the world cower – or will good prevail over evil.

    It seems that you and Mr. Shama are willing to find out.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  156. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    Hi Alexander,
    I am not sure if I’ll ever be able to address all your questions, my meagre pen might prove unequal to the task. The answers to all your questions are based on basic morality, and therefore entirely obvious. I’ll only say this, if its of any help: nations and civilisations have constantly undergone conquests, subjugation, annexation, genetic subsumation and indeed massacres. In the relative scheme as these things go, I’d say what the creation of Israel had wrought is small. Which is why I object to the term ‘extermination’. Its nothing of the sort. Who cares if a nation called ‘Palestine’ remains? What is most important is that the people are cared for in a modern state. Where are proto-gothic states Gothi, Markomani, Chatti, Rugii, etc? All subsumed in Germany and Switzerland and others, no?

    What I’d like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB. The rest of it is mostly intellectual tussle.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Wizard of Oz
  157. alexander says:
    @Art

    I think its very difficult,in a genuine way, for many to accept what is happening to Palestine.

    I don’t think Sam is an exception.

    The eventual “two state solution’ was always the accepted fact, by most people who believe in Israel and wanted a reasonable outcome to its conflicts.

    But its death, which is the the death of Palestine (alone) is not so easy for many who depended on believing in it and the justness of its outcome.

    I understand how difficult it is to discuss, but in the same breath I don’t see the “peace process” revived any time soon, if ever.

    Do you ?

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn’t this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    Israel has made no effort to furnish a peace plan of its own, and none of the initiatives out there, to a reasonable resolution (to all this )ever even makes it out of the the batters box.

    So its a sad state of affairs for the victims and the victors, too.

    • Replies: @Art
  158. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    What I’d like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB.

    Mr Shama’s con goes on – Zionism will never let that happen and he knows it. If he was really serious about Palestinian citizenship he would acknowledge the Zionist problem.

    Here is the real Mr Shama.

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    “Not necessarily” expresses a hoped for successful outcome to the Zionist final solution.

  159. Art says:
    @alexander

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn’t this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    alexander,

    Mr. Shama may be part of the US K-Street Jews – I think that when push comes to shove, that they are trying to save themselves not Palestinians. They are preparing for a backlash.

    I believe that Zionism is a manifestation of Jew culture – a 100% manifestation of Jew think.

    K-Street meagerly protests – but never in a meaningful way. They never win with congress.

    I believe they are false flag rearguard action that covers up for AIPAC and the ADL. When things go bad, they will become the face of Judaism that their MSM will present to the America public.

    The true well-meaning Jew willing to fight Zionism is rare thing.

    Art

    p.s. Feeling sorry for the Jews is manna to the Zionists. The truth is they know what they are doing – everything is calculated.

    p.s. Sorry for the miserable bleak assessment – but it is all true.

  160. @Art

    You haven’t understood the first thing about current concerns have you? Perhaps the sound of chest beating prevents you hearing.

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!

    • Replies: @Art
  161. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Palestinians should be compensated. Subsidies spent flooding the region with weapons would be much better spent on such aid. Sadly, Lockheed Martin and the death lobby don’t market the appropriate peacetime products (at least ones that are as profitable).

    “the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them [Palestinians]?”

    There’re probably as many answers (clan kinship, religious sect, etc.) as peoples. The easy one that comes to mind, however, is they pissed off the Sabahs (Kuwait) and Sauds (KSA) by rooting for Saddam in the first Gulf War. In the 70s-80s Palestinian expats in the Gulf held premier professional positions and commanded great esteem. With war, and the very visible shenanigans of their West Bank and Gaza cousins, they were summarily deported. It was a great pity – they are talented people and deserve much better.

  162. @Wally

    If what I said was nonsense you certainly haven’t used those IQ points to show it. The challenge is not to run a website but to produce a coherent thoroughly researched body of work such as a much extended coroner”s inquest.

    You seem obsessed with the figureof 6 million but the murdering of millions of Jews by the Nazi regime doesn’t have to have ended in 6 million having been killed to be true.

    Another irrelevant obsession is those mass graves that you keep on repeating are fundamental to some Jews’ Holocaust version. Maybe some particular examples are wrong but there are plenty of bodies that have been found from the early shootings. And one wouldn’t expect to find mass graves of those who had been cremated.

    • Replies: @Wally
  163. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Good point. I’m chastened by exposure as an optimist.

  164. @Sam Shama

    Are you sure that resting your answers on basic morality makes them obvious? Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law? Basic perhaps but not the Islamic way I think, except amongst Muslims.

    What do you think the agreed content of basic morality consists of?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  165. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one – and I mean no one – should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud – responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO’s been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end – a tragic figure – he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware – it’s depressing): ‘Incendies’ first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

  166. L.K says:
    @Art

    Hey Art,
    It has already been determined by serious scholars, including Jewish ones, that it’s Israel which does not negotiage in good faith and does not want a 2 state solution.
    - It’s Israel, almost everytime, that causes the ‘wars’ in Gaza.

    The book ‘Method and Madness: The Hidden Story of Israel’s Assaults on Gaza’, by Norman G. Finkelstein, a well known Jewish scholar (New York and London: OR Books, 2014), addresses these matters.

    Finkelstein writes in the preface that ‘a trio of themes form the connective tissue of the book’s narrative’.
    First, each attack on Gaza was preceded by a pattern of deliberate Israeli provocations leading to Hamas retaliation by means of largely ineffectual rockets, which Israel then exploited as a pretext. Second, in each case, Israel managed to evade accountability from the international community. Third, each massacre ended in a stalemate and the continuation of the siege of Gaza.

    Israel’s motivations have also remained consistent. Whereas Israel presents its offensives as reluctant responses to Palestinian aggression, the truth, Finkelstein argues, is precisely the opposite.

    Israel’s provocations and attacks typically follow Palestinian ‘peace offensives’—peace overtures that undermine Israel’s pretexts for rejecting a two-state solution and hence threaten it with the prospect of having to give up land in the West Bank. To forestall an unwelcome peace, Israel instigates a war and brands the Palestinians as ‘terrorists’ with whom no peace can be made. Finkelstein traces this pattern back to the 1982 war on Lebanon and takes the phrase ‘peace offensive’ from an Israeli analyst writing at the time.

  167. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi “lebensraum”, back in time to “manifest destiny” to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.

    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?

  168. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    [Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law?]

    Basic morality: I’d still cling to the kernel that all human life is equal, attaching no tertiary clauses.

    Its an idea more honoured in the breach than in the observance, over the march of our Time. Is it true that all human life is equal? Only if we insist. Logic precludes it.

    Yet accepting that logic surely awakens emotions, the shades of which we cannot peg with equanimity. For most, that’s the logic of machines, of barren waste, a loss of spirit and soul. For others, dial a different time, a rousing tune with a gifted tongue, and barren waste it is no longer, but in fact the gates of the abode of their gods flung wide, ready for the cleansing fire to come.

    So insist we must, those gates remain unopened.

    Stepping away from all the foregoing poppycock, I’d say we insist on a rules-based society. Land, if we see it as a non-depreciating asset, an asset which is only as good as its current tenants tend it, then most of our problems are moot. Only labour and its derivative, capital, have value and therefore the tenancy of any group is bounded by the quality and quantity of their inputs; you may prosper or perish all in accordance to your work.

    I only ask those rules be tempered with a spirit of generosity.

  169. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    As cogent an accounting of what’s going on in Israel as I’ve seen anywhere; keenly appreciated the rapier insight with which you cut through all the bs.

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time.

    and

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    I tip my hat.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  170. @alexander

    Are you just saying that the Israelis can find no justification by saying that what they are doing is at least no worse nor less justifiable as an ambition than Ĺebensraum and Manifest Destiny? If so then I would agree because it is only recently that the impulse to send one’s multiplying population into new lands so that they can all be fed has been shown to be totally unnecessary. On the other hand neither Hitler’s Germany nor 19th century America were threatened with extinction by neighbours so maybe the issues are just different.

    No doubt a number of the settlers would be just as genocidally racialist as Hitler’s Germans proved to be in Eastern Europe but a combination of world opinion (remembering how small and weak Israel is compared to 1930s Germany), genuine humanism, and Jews being much less likely than 30s Germans to obey governments meekly i suggest are all distinguishing features that must affect the extent to which Israeli politicians can hope to exclude Palestinians from the West Bank.

    • Replies: @alexander
  171. @Incitatus

    I have not seen much of Palestinian Palestine. Indeed I have spent as much (small amount of) time talking to very p***ed off Bedouins in Israel as to West Bank Palestinians. But one of my Australian politician friends, a former government minister with strong principles, though belonging of course to a party which supported Israel in most things, was savage about the way he saw Palestinians treated on the West Bank.

    Nonetheless I wonder why you think it lamentable that many or most “colonists/settlers” would like to see the Palestinians emigrate voluntarily. Why wouldn’t the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)? Was the creation of Liberia such an abhorrent idea (without the benefit of knowing about its late 20th century condition)? It’s surely completely different from attempting to make life so unbearable that they would leave as seems to have been Hitler’s original plan for German Jews.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Incitatus
  172. iffen says:
    @alexander

    cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi “lebensraum”,

    Obviously this lebensraum business was nothing but a lot of Nazi propaganda. The Germans have plenty of room for everybody in their country as evidenced by today’s immigration.

  173. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    Hence there can be no one state solution. The Palestinians would be an eternal 5th column. Sam says they should have equal rights and citizenship. Could they be Chief of Staff, engage in strategic planning, exercise police power in Orthodox communities, carry the football? None of that works except the eternal enemy part.

    As for two states, think Gaza on a grand scale. I suppose after the US tidies up all the states that it has built in the ME and around the world it could build a Palestinian one.

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met).

    I have said this before. Mine is a lot cruder. These 88s don’t give a ff about the Palestinians.

    But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding.

    It is nearly impossible for a reasonable opposition to get traction. Leaving aside arguments of undue influence of Jews in the media and politics, we can see that the existence of neo-Nazis which can be hung around the neck of legitimate opposition is deadly. We can see the effectiveness of this tactic currently with Clinton tying Trump to the alt-right. You have said before that you suspect SC2 is a mole. I suspect many of them. People accuse Jews of continually playing the Holocaust card, I think this neo-Nazi card is pretty potent as well.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  174. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    alexander,

    Interesting question. I’ll try to do it justice.

    In the early days we bought land for trade goods (e.g. Manhattan). It’s good policy when you’re outnumbered by natives. Plus natives become addicted to your trade goods. Ever increasing numbers of colonists, foreign diseases, technology, rum and brandy, and trade dependancy enabled colonists to change their leverage.

    Manifest Destiny was the consensus that colonials were entitled to the full width of the continent, and no foreign power should intrude on that right. Settlement subsidization followed, and development (railroads, etc) changed native life forever. Killing natives outright was less preferable than simply making them move west and, finally onto land no one else wanted. Generally Americans lost little sleep over any moral issues. Been to a reservation lately?

    It’s not a pretty record. On the other hand, Natives weren’t always the ‘noble savages’ of legend. 17C genocidal tribal wars, slavery, and incredibly cruel torture was not infrequent. Many tribes/clans simply didn’t like each other.

    “If you do not believe this [Israeli] behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not?”

    Let me start by saying I trust you believe one of Hitler’s goals was lebensraum. Some on UNZ don’t. It’s well documented in many sources. Adolf’s vision for natives wasn’t reservations. It was extermination. First by inducing famine, exposure, or terminal forced labor. Second, by direct murder. Let Adolf speak for himself:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! …[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy…I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Nice guy wasn’t he? 20,000 – 25,000 civilians died in Warsaw that September (the same number killed by Allies at Dresden 1944). Adolf really picked up the pace after Barbarossa (22 Jun 1941). Nazi murder went wholesale.

    Let me sum up. Manifest Destiny: displacement, theft of land, limiting/ending native ways of living, and hostile military treatment (including some massacres). Nazi policy: extermination by induced or direct means.

    If you find words by an Israeli head of state, and action that reveals direct genocidal policy, I’ll gladly adopt the Lebensraum parity. Manifest Destiny seems more accurate, and it’s bad enough.

    Let me ask you a question. Why the need equate one with the other? Why drag the tired old Nazis into it? Provoking passionate reactions (for or against) usually ends rational discourse. Do you simply want to accuse Israelis of being Nazis? How does that help Palestinians?

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @alexander
    , @alexander
  175. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    This is a fair comment wizard.

    I think the situation is different in Israel.

    Most Americans who support the settlement enterprise (and we know there are over a dozen billionaires in the US who underwrite it on a daily basis) are quite eager to make the comparison between Greater Israels settlers expanding ‘eastward’ over Palestine and the 18th (and 19th) century early American colonists expanding ‘westward’ over North America.

    This is a welcome comparison. It is almost always “encouraged” when discussions of the settlement enterprise are engaged among the elites in the power centers of the US.

    Even liberal websites like “Mondoweiss” refer to Israels expansionist tendencies as “Settler Colonialism” either deliberately or subliminally harking back to the age of Manifest Destiny which created the United States through westward expansion.

    “See”, Israelis say, “we are just like you (the US) were, two hundred years ago, same thing, different dates”.

    But everybody and their uncle , avoids, like the PLAGUE, comparisons made to the ‘odious’ Nazi “Lebensraum”.

    NO, NO, big taboo!

    What is so funny about all this, is the conscious ,deliberate “Leap-frogging” over the ENTIRE NAZI ERA, when discourse ( and comparisons) of Israeli land grabs takes place.

    Its as though “lebensraum”, the central tenet of Nazi expansionism, has simply “vanished” from history in ANY and ALL comparative discussions of Israels policies.

    For the record,the greatest distinction between “Manifest Destiny” and Israeli “land grabs”which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a “supreme international crime” to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn’t a ‘crime’ at all.

    Whereas what makes all ‘land conquering’ and ‘land taking’ a criminal act TODAY,was precisely the outcome of WWII and the universal condemnation of Nazi ‘ethnic cleansing’ and Nazi “lebensraum”.

    The hinge on the legitimacy / illegitimacy of such behavior was precisely the universal sets of laws and treaties instituted after WWII, in direct response to the Third Reich’s desire for war, conquest and domination.

    • Replies: @Art
  176. Art says:
    @alexander

    For the record,the greatest distinction between “Manifest Destiny” and Israeli “land grabs”which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a “supreme international crime” to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn’t a ‘crime’ at all.

    Private property was not taken by the American settler. The Jews in Palestine/Israel are taking private property. Shame shame. (The Jew in America cry bloody murder if their private property is taken.)

    The American settler and the American Indian where engaged in a clash of civilizations. One required 10,000 acres to sustain an individual, the other required 100 acres to sustain an individual. The outcome was more a matter of physics then morality. That is NOT the case in Israel.

    p.s. The number of American settlers killed by Indians and the number of Indians killed by settlers are not that far apart. The major killing of Indians was done by the US government. Shame shame.

    p.s. There were Indian treaty lands taken by government – again Shame.

  177. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!

    Unbelievable – when have I made a comment that does not lament the theft of Palestine.

    p.s. Sorry but a good number of your comments are gibberish. Too many words that cloud what you want to say.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  178. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Why wouldn’t the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)?

    Gee – where have we heard that before?

    Art: The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    #108

  179. alexander says:

    You are right on that, Art.

    The Palestinians have recognized and owned private property for generations.

    It is also my understanding they were quite adept at agricultural innovations.

    Didn’t the famous Jaffa orange emerge out of Palestine? It was considered the most stable and most delicious of all oranges…Isn’t that correct ?

    But I guess most of Jaffa is Tel Aviv now.

    (I suppose you can put that in your “shame” cap, too)

    I think you can still buy Jaffa oranges in Lebanon and Cyprus, but maybe its not quite the same .

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  180. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Thanks Sam.

    Having just finished ‘Devil’s Diary’ I have a couple entertaining Rosenberg stories/quotes typical of Third Reich ‘leadership’. I hope to share them soon, but regret my current lack of time.

    Best for the holiday.

  181. Incitatus says:
    @iffen

    Hi iffen,

    To me a paradox of any ‘universal’ religious state is that the founding faith needs by definition keep a decisive majority (and remain universal). I’ve heard target figures of 80% for Israel, below which everyone gets very nervous.

    Blumenthal’s work (‘Goliath’ and ‘The 51 Day War’) make any viable one/two state solutions seem unlikely. Minimum denominational figures restrict a one state solution. I’d back Sam on the full citizenship option, but I don’t see it happening.

    I agree the two state solution is Gaza(s) on steroids, at best a Bantustan. Most options I’ve seen agree on keeping the West Bank in some form or another, few of them good for Palestinians. I think it’s wrong. I also think Manifest Destiny was wrong. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what I think. The issue lies with the Israelis and Palestinians. I don’t envy either.

    Quick thoughts on measures that might staunch some of the poison (in random order):

    • Demolition: end collective punishment or equally enforce the policy – this means demolish the houses of the terrorists that burned-to-death the Palestinian boy and the family, or end the policy once and for all;
    • Treat crimes equally: i.e. increase investigation and indictments for crimes on Palestinians (some ridiculous figure like 2% actually go to trial, and fewer result in convictions);
    • Stop ‘mowing the lawn’ (i.e. deliberate incitement and quick, overwhelming repression);
    • Highways: open restricted highways to all;
    • Checkpoints: eliminate the intrusive, unnecessary choke holds on Palestinians and give them back some dignity;
    • Tax revenues: stop using Palestinian tax retainage as a weapon to force policy compliance;
    • Water rights: distribute on a more equitable basis and eliminate preferential subsidies for exclusive groups;
    • End targeted assassination, visibly recommit to legal due process;
    • Summarily fire any cabinet minister who characterizes any minority as ‘little snakes’ or the like (especially a justice minister);
    • Demilitarize policy: force need not be the first option;
    • Tone down the rhetoric on Iran;
    • End West Bank colonization (that’s not going to happen).

    Plymouth (1620) and the Massachusetts Bay Colony (1630) were both largely religious enterprises. RCs risked death if found proselytizing. Condemnation and distrust of RCs and others endured for centuries. Eventually conditions moderated, but it took generations. It’d be nice to think that could happen in Israel sometime in the future. Who knows?

    I agree with your take on the 88s. In fact, Avery makes some of my favorite comments.

    Opposition to Likkud. It’d be great if the full range of coverage found in Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, and other Israeli sources showed up in our press. I don’t know if that’d improve opposition chances in Israel (the politics of shrill division seem to work too well for Likkud et.al.). But at least Americans might have a chance to appreciate a much wider range of Israeli opinion.

    The confluence of our pandering representatives, AIPAC, skewed press coverage, and big contributors seems equally unhealthy for Israel and the US. I favor limiting campaign duration and restricting election funding, sunlight on contributors, contribution limits, a ban on corporate funding of any type, ending tax exemption for think tank lobbyists, reversal of Citizens United, etc.

    Though rushed by family commitments, I hope some of this makes sense.

    Best for the holiday.

  182. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    No surprise the Bedouins were upset – it seems to congenital judging by their cousins in Jordan and KSA. Jordan had to ban transporting camels in open pickups (too many fell onto the road and/or onto other vehicles). In KSA they favored the small, cheap pickups. None really acclimated to driving, so one saw wrecks lodged in the most unusual places. Other drivers regarded them as ‘kamikazes.’

    Years ago I saw Midge Decter interviewed on C-Span. She said, with a totally straight face, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. I’ve heard it many times since then. Removing their identity is the first step in a process that strips them of their rights. I’m sure Midge harbored no homicidal desire. By disconnecting them from any right to the land, she probably just wants them to go away (or, at worst, remain an invisible people). Many I’ve since seen interviewed share that attitude.

    PS. I admire you for attempting to labor in Wally’s barren vineyard. Alas, he seems intent on producing such a bitter vintage.

    All the best.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  183. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts’ “Eichmann in Jerusalem” might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of “Jews” out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was ‘to remove’ the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the “final” solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its “unwanted” Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing “removal” and “transfer” and “demographics”, and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the “Juden” problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

  184. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus,

    I don’t want to “accuse” anybody of anything.

    I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.

    Wouldn’t you agree ?

    If there is one certainty to the most resonant narratives of the second half of the 20th century it was the abomination that Germany became, in its adoption of the totalitarian, supremacist, and militant Nazi initiatives.

    These include, above all else, the belief in lebensraum and war.

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Do you NOT agree with this assessment, Incitatus ?

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Incitatus
  185. @Art

    I know you can’t stand long sentences whose punctuation and subordinated clauses have to be attended to (and sometimes inferred or repaired when the writer has been careless) but it should not have been beyond you to understand that it was not your views of the treatment of and policy towards Palestinians that was in issue but your understanding of what Philip Giraldi had written – or maybe just your willingness to look beyond your own thoughts and attend to what he wrote.

  186. @alexander

    You are no doubt right that “Palestinians have recognised….. private property for generations” and no doubt too “owned” it in some sense. But if you are actually basing such statements on knowledge would you care to summarise your understanding of the law with respect to real or immovable property in Palestine over recent centuries. You are no doubt aware of tbe problems associated with settlements of Bedouin in the northern Negev. When I came across that and the denying of title even to former Bedouin IDF servicemen I discovered that freehold title under the Ottomans seemed to have been very limited and that, possibly, much of it was lawfully acquired around what is now Tel Aviv for the early Zionist settlers. Can you enlarge or improve on this?

    • Replies: @alexander
  187. @alexander

    You seem to have changed the subject. First you bring Lebensraum then, when you don’t like the answer you take on the precise dating of Hitler’s move from princilally wanting to grt Jews out of Germany to his firmiing up the extermination of Jews and killing of untermenschen generally. (I have just seen a dico on the beginning of WW2 in Poland with plenty of convincing ethnic Grrman as well as Polish witnesses (including Otto Frank’s son) that is consistent with that August 1939 speech to army officers in its detailing of the deliberate decapitation of Polish society so that only the lower classes would be left to do the menial work.

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @alexander
  188. @Incitatus

    One rationaisation for labouring in any of the barren vineyards is, especially if reclining with smartphone in hand rather than doing anything that a spouse or parent might applaud, that it allows one to apply rigorous editorial checking to one’s arguments that one wants to regard as clearly correct.

    As to the Palestinians as a people I have speculated that they have been created in the last 100 years, mostly since 1947. I wonder how much Christian Palestinians identify with Muslim Palestinians now. But that is btw compared with the consequences of the explosion of Palestinian population. Given that nearly all would need to live in cities or at least large well connected towns and that any ancestral farms and villages would be unrecognisable and unavailable even for family reunions what viable possibilities are there for Palestinian Palestine?

    Maybe it would be a good start to create a number of heavily subsidised Bantustans with a view to them becoming Hong Kongs or Shenzhens. At least alcohol wouldn’t be the destructive force that it is for Australian Aborigines and other pre-pre-modern people and maybe the innocently pacific business of busineas could take over. The necessary subsidies for several decades would be better than some class action type compensation.

  189. Art says:
    @alexander

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Gee – is that not Israel today – 2016?

    Hitler was 75 years ago – done that – what about Netanyahu and Israel today – are they not the center of endless ongoing ME wars?

    Of course the hasbara types are doing their job – diverting attention to WWII and Jews – and away from their victims the Palestinian people and the many others in the ME.

    Pushing more war – demanding more death – how do these bastards sleep?

  190. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    What I think you should do first is quit your preachy tone. No one is “diddling”, whatever that word is meant to convey, but “removal”, “transfer” are terms that just escaped from your own rear end. I don’t think you understood much at all of what I, Incitatus, Iffen or Wiz have been saying. I also think that you don’t possess an iota of ability to approach geo-political subjects with an analytical eye, being stuck on your “lebensraum, lebensraum, lebensraum”. What makes you think Incitatus or I haven’t read Arendt? Just because he doesn’t start with her premise? Do you mean to imply that your own writings are some species of brilliant historical insight?

    So what if I said “Oh right you are, Alexander! It is LEBENSRAUM!!!” Brilliant, what next?!! Any solutions or prescriptive ideas?

    It’s idiotic ranting.

  191. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    You must be smoking some powerful botanics to even think that Israel’s policy would devolve from a push for “Lebensraum” [there, happy?] to killing millions in work/death camps. You should give this nonsense a rest.

    • Replies: @alexander
  192. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Wizard.

    I am not familiar with the specific land titles or the history of ownership of the Negev by the Bedouin.I have not studied it so I can’t comment on it .

    But, for the record, I will cite a different example that is a reasonable form of behavior.

    Lets assume a Palestinian family has owned a 40 acre farm just north of Hebron. They grows olives and have been doing so for seven generations. An Israeli farmer would really like to acquire the Palestinian land. So he makes an offer to buy it. If the Palestinian accepts the offer, fine. If he doesn’t , he doesn’t.

    And that’s it. End of story.

    The Israeli doesn’t have the RIGHT to then set the Palestinians olive trees on FIRE ,and the IDF do not have the RIGHT to then bulldoze his house, to claim the land for “target practice”.

    In regards to land titles, deeds and historic surveys belonging to Palestinians, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Irgun and/or the Stern gang made sure to blow up nearly every “records office” and “building department” during the brutal ethnic cleansings’ of 1948.

    This would have been done with the specific intent to exterminate the legitimacy of Palestinian claims to the lands Israel wanted to seize, and permanently “muddy the waters” on who owned what and where.

    Does this make sense to you ?

  193. Karl says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    > Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA

    tell that story to the longshoremen in Eilat who were laid off for the duration of the blockade.

    We will not trust our children’s lives to CIA estimates.

    If you want to do that…. go for it.

    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
  194. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    No, I didn’t change the subject, Wizard.

    I merely pointed out to Incitatus that “population transfers” of the “Juden” were the first order of business for Hitlers Germany, not liquidation, and Adolph Eichmann was the guy who facilitated it.

    Incitatus made the incorrect point that Nazi Germany, UNLIKE Israel, was interested in the Genocide not “removal” of Jews, whereas Israel is interested in the “removal” (of Palestinians) not their Genocide.

    In fact, this is totally inaccurate. Relocating the “Juden” was an industry unto itself for quite some time,in Nazi Germany. Hitler wanted Germany to be “Judenrein”( free of Jews).

    The Holocaust was the “de facto” result of Nazi Germany’s inability to find places to ship the untermenchen, so they just started to kill them.

    Arendts “Eichmann in Jerusalem” fleshes it out, pretty succinctly, from the horses mouth, Eichmann himself.

    It really is quite disgusting, the whole damn thing. Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.

  195. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking “powerful botanicals” for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my “preachy tone”. please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The “diddling” I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe “Greater”Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite ‘put off ‘ by your “out of the gate” certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted “terror groups” a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with “predisposed” ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

  196. @alexander

    Yes, if there were land titles or records such as you hypothesise I have to agree with you that it would have been amongst the Stern Gang’s and Irgun’s minor crimes, and perfectly rational for them to have destroyed those records. But I am still curious about the title situation. From my imperfect knowledge I think the likelihood of there being any formal title at law for the Palestinians who had olive groves might have been slight but I wouldn’t be surprised if long possession wasn’t recognised as giving a form of ownership that the courts would protect both under the mandate and under the Ottomans before them. Still the seventh generation olive growers would have been a small minority of the Arab population of Palestine by the 1940s.

    • Replies: @alexander
  197. @alexander

    Where is there any sign that a Palestinian polity is likely (that is >50% probability) to be a viable entity like say Singapore, Hong Kong or even Macau?

    OK to maintain consistency I think they might be able to make a go of a collection of city states heavily subsidised for 30 years and with business friendly constitutions.

  198. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    I note you don’t address Adolf’s:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! …[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy…I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Show me similar policy in Israel and maybe I’ll listen.

    You offer no suggestions on what Israelis and Palestinians could do to improve the situation. Not interested? You proffer rigid, phony metaphors that end discussion before it begins. Your dialectic showcases your devotion to – you guessed it – Nazi Germany. Haven’t we been here before?

    I might be tempted to address your stirring interpretation of history, but you haven’t responded to Adolf’s above-mentioned quote. At the risk of being tiresome, show me any comperable Israeli policy. It seems you simply want to scourge Israelis with your version of the Horst Wessel Lied.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @alexander
  199. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    alexander,

    “I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.”

    Another invitaion to Planet Germania, which holds you firmly in it’s embace.

    • Replies: @alexander
  200. @alexander

    The nomadic Bedouin were split amongst several nations when national borders were created in the former Ottoman Empire. Apparently 17000 in Israel in 1949 have become 250,000 now and they tend to live in shanty towns where the leading males may all have several wives bearing children and drawing welfare benefits. You could regard it as one of those problems the generally able people running Israel have allowed to creep up on them without their paying attention while they attended to more urgent or immediately important problems (unfortunately including negotiating coalitions with small extremist parties….). I think the Ethiopian (Falasha) population is about half that of the Bedouin btw & fwiw.

  201. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    alexander

    “It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with “predisposed” ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.”

    Thank you. It’s the best example of projection I’ve seen in some time.

  202. @Karl

    We will not trust our children’s lives to CIA estimates.

    And, like I also said, Israel’s own intelligence assessed there was no threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel. Another relevant excerpt from Obstacle to Peace (the paragraph just preceding the above excerpt regarding the US’s intelligence assessment):

    Oren himself documented in his book that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian first-strike on Israel, much less a genocidal threat to Israel’s very existence. “Had Egypt intended to attack Israel immediately,” he wrote a couple of pages later, “the army’s advance into Sinai would have been conducted as quietly as possible, at night. Instead, by acting conspicuously, [Egyptian President Gamal Abdel] Nasser sent a double message to Israel: Egypt had no aggressive designs, but neither would it suffer any Israeli aggression against Syria.” Oren admitted further that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”. To launch an attack on Israel under present conditions, “Nasser would have to be deranged”; the conditions under which a sane Nasser might do so were “most unlikely” to occur.

    Israel’s attack on Egypt on June 5 was, under international law, aggression, “the supreme international crime” as defined at Nuremberg.

  203. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    [The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?]

    It matters not at all what I wish. Its simple enough for me to sit here on a New York morning, tap the keyboard and proclaim that Jews, as we had in the past, can cohabit as a minority in a muslim majority state. But you see, I am not the one living there [although I did for months at a stretch in the past]. There is not a chance of the Israeli population, as far as the eye can see, of accepting a condition where they are a minority; the odds are even vanishingly smaller that Hamas, Hezbollah etc. would simply allow for an orderly large scale population movement, were the RoR instituted, without inflicting bloodshed of the type reminiscent of the killing fields. Why you ask? Since most of these terrorist organisations would have absolutely nothing to do with a negotiated peace.

    Their entire raison d’etre, their funding, is inextricably bound to a permanent refugee class in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. Just as Incitatus remarked in one of his earlier posts, Palestinians were actually accepted and viewed with sympathy and welcomed in some of the Gulf nations. No longer. No Arab nation wants them for fear of contaminating their native populations with Palestinian angst, militancy and fervour. So the KSA [among the many other great things they do], Iran and others, are perfectly content to send monies to Hamas, Hezbollah and other smaller irritants to maintain a constant state of manageable turmoil.

    And you have Likkud in Israel. A conglomerate of hard-line, ultra religious nuts who would not countenance any compromise. You also have a large secular population whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building, and a thriving one which compares favourably with Europe but beset with a paucity of land. A people which has built a state, does not voluntarily hand over its controls to another on an appeal to morality alone.

    Which is why I think, hard as it may be, an U.S. led initiative to vest the WBPals with citizenship w/o the RoR is possibly the most realistic scenario.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Art
  204. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    You may be right on that,Wizard.

    I simply don’t know enough about it, to state a case in either direction.

  205. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus,

    your comment:

    “Show me a similar policy in Israel and maybe I will listen”

    Hmmmm….

    How about the infamous quote from our good Mr. Arnon Sofer ,whose chief occupation seemed to be diagnosing the eternal demographic threat presented by the Palestinians. He was/is known among many (within the Knesset) as the “Arab counter”.

    “…..We will have to KILL and KILL and KILL. All day, Every day.if we don’t KILL we will cease to exist.”

    Doesn’t sound like a “policy” of transfer to me, does it sound like one to you ?

  206. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    I agree with most of your points, Sam.

    But I don’t see how allowing the right of Palestinians refugees to return to the homes they were forced out of, in 1948, would unleash a killing fields scenario emanating from either Hezbollah or Hamas ?

    It really doesn’t make any sense.

    Hezbollah was founded as a highly capable guerilla group, whose primary function was to PUSH Israel out of Southern Lebanon.(why Israel sought to conquer southern Lebanon in the first place,is anyone’s guess)

    I would imagine they, as well as Hamas, would be happy as clams if the Palestinians were allowed to return to their lands in peace.

    It would be a cause for celebration among the entire Arab world.

    If I see a killing fields scenario,emanating from anywhere, its from the IDF ,to “mow the lawn” once and for all, of all the returning Palestinians, rather than let them reclaim their homes and upend the sacred demographic of Israels Jewish majority.

    This makes all the sense in the world, to me.

    It doesn’t to you ?

  207. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Hmmm, Incitatus.

    Sounds like a bit of denial on your part? Wouldn’t you say?

    If you cannot face up to what Germany became under Adolph Hitler, how can you face up to a militant totalitarian fascism emerging anywhere ?

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  208. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    For the record, Incitatus,

    I have offered numerous times ,on the Unz review, a way forward, in peace, for everyone.

    I have dealt with every single outstanding issue to the conflict, that I know of.

    If you would like me to restate it, I will.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  209. @alexander

    Nah…..It won’t wash. A mad Baruch Goldstein type in the Knesset that hardly anyone’s heard of versus the Chancellor of the German Reich!

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @SolontoCroesus
  210. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Perhaps you, Sam and Incitatus should all spend the twenty minutes to view David Sheen’s testimony before the Russell tribunal in 2014, it does a much better job in pulling back the curtain on these”supremacist” tendencies which have been bubbling up in Israel for quite some time.

    The link is posted on You tube . Its “David Sheen- Russell Tribunal -2014″

    It’s very easy to access.

    It is shocking in its forthrightness, and even more shocking in its recounting of how the “Children of the Holocaust” are beginning to behave.

    Not a pretty picture.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Sam Shama
  211. @Wizard of Oz

    Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?

    According to Josef Goebbels’ diary, Hitler was not in Berlin on Aug 22 1939, he was at his private, mountain retreat in Berghof. Hitler did not meet with his military commanders at Berghof but in Berlin.

    Since we know beyond a doubt that a lot of lies and false “quotes” have been attributed to Hitler, it’s important to fully authenticate a statement, especially one such as the one you cited, upon which so much of your argument depends.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    , @Incitatus
  212. @alexander

    I may get round to it but I don’t need it to convince me that there are a lot of nasty savages in Israel. I will take some convincing though that government policy is anywhere near that of the Nazis or could become so (accepting that nothing is impossible…). As I hsve said there is far more free speech and dissent in Israel, there is genuine liberalism and they are a small country which can’t afford to outrage all other countries.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Art
  213. @SolontoCroesus

    I am sure you have noticed that Incitatus producedcthe quote and I have merely picked it up with the observation that it is significant enough for Alexander to need to deal with – assuming it to be a true quote in the absence of challenge. It wouldn’t surprise me in the least if it was made up. Indeed it is almost too perfect a specimen.

    It’s almost worse if he didn’t say it because it would tend to justify the great Prof Holdswotth’s dedication of the 1945 volume of his History of English Law in which he referred to the incorrigible savagery of the German race.

  214. @Wizard of Oz

    The dedication was to the memory of his son Flight Lieutenant R.W.R. [?] Holdsworth who had been killed in the battle to defend civilisation from the incorrigible savagery of the German race [I quote from memory] – a sentiment perhaps justified by German behaviour in Poland as soon as they had a chance to start decapitation snd killing patriots.

    • Replies: @Art
  215. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    You also have a large secular population (i.e., Israelis) whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building

    Hey Shama – nice bate and switch hasbara.

    Here is Jew “nation building” — here is the face of the Jew that Palestinians see.

    Neglecting settlers violence

    Published on Aug 31, 2016
    In contradiction of extremely low conviction rates, settler violence against Palestinians is at least a weekly occurrence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_WN0Q9KQY

    This stench is on you.

  216. @Wizard of Oz

    I have merely picked it up

    weasel.

    Youbased your claim on the statement; is it your customary practice to rest your case on evidence plucked out of thin air? (OTOH, to converse w/ Alexander is to contend w/ hot air and little else).

    —–

    the great Prof Holdswotth’s dedication of the 1945 volume of his History of English Law in which he referred to the incorrigible savagery of the German race.

    Department of mote and beam:

    Late Victorian Holocausts: El Nino Famines and the Making of the Third World by Mike Davis : “. . . focuses on three zones of drought and subsequent famine: India, Northern China; and Northeastern Brazil. All were affected by the same global climatic factors that caused massive crop failures, and all experienced brutal famines that decimated local populations. But the effects of drought were magnified in each case because of singularly destructive policies promulgated by different ruling elites.

    Davis argues that the seeds of underdevelopment in what later became known as the Third World were sown in this era of High Imperialism, as the price for capitalist modernization was paid in the currency of millions ofpeasants’ lives.

    The Great Famine & Genocide in Iran 1917-1919, by Mohammad Gholi Majd “At least 8–10 million Iranians out of a population of 18–20 million died of starvation and disease during the famine of 1917–1919. The Iranian holocaust was the biggest calamity of World War I and one of the worst genocides of the 20th century . . . The conquest by Great Britain of the vast area stretching from India to Egypt in World War I is one of the great colonial conquests of history . . . Within that context . . . [neutral] Iran suffered its greatest calamity in its recorded history. . . .Iran was invaded and occupied by Great Britain and Russia both in World War I and World War II. In both wars, Russia invaded northern Iran . . . and Great Britain invaded western, . . .southern . . .and eastern Iran. “

    Bengal Famine Of 1943 – A Man-Made Holocaust BY Joseph Lazzaro “When British Prime Minister David Cameron expressed regret this week for the Jallianwala Bagh massacre of 1919 in Amritsar (in which at least 400 unarmed Indian men, women and children were massacred by British soldiers), he omitted any reference to Britain’s role in a far greater tragedy of colonial India: the Bengal famine of 1943.

    Seventy years ago, at least 3 million people died from starvation and malnutrition during a famine in the Indian province of Bengal — a partly man-made disaster that has been largely forgotten by the world beyond northeastern India.”

    The Politics ofHunger: The Allied Blockade ofGermany, 1915-1919, C. Paul Vincent “States throughout history have persisted in severely encumbering and even prohibiting international trade. Seldom, however, can the consequences of such an effort-the obvious immediate results as well as the likely long-range ones-have been as devastating as in the case of the Allied (really, British) naval blockade of Germany in the First World War. This hunger blockade belongs to the category of forgotten state atrocities of the twentieth century. (Similarly, who now remembers the tens of thousands of Biafrans starved to death during the war of independence through the policy of the Nigerian generals supported by the British government?) “

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  217. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    The dedication was to the memory of his son Flight Lieutenant R.W.R. [?] Holdsworth who had been killed in the battle to defend civilisation … yada … yada … yada

    Wiz,

    You take up people’s mind with meaningless dribble – you divert people’s mind from our current fascists.

    You write this so that Jews can kill Palestinians – you are a propagandist – a hasbaraist – a Zionist shill.

    You write for the fascist Jew fatherland just like Josef Goebbels did for Hitler.

    Art

  218. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I hope to God you are right , Wizard.

    But it does not look good, at the moment.

    It looks bad.

  219. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I will take some convincing though that government policy is anywhere near that of the Nazis or could become so

    Israel is a country with 200 hidden nukes and a leader that promises NO peace.

    What part of the big picture do you not get – what is not to fear?

    How dangerous do you want it?

    What will it take for you to acknowledge the real potential danger?

    p.s. Add to that the actual Jewish coercion of the Western states and what is the potential for a WWII type conflagration?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  220. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    Was Sofer (as commander) instructing the IDF general staff? Did they slaughter 20,000-25,000 civilians within a single city the same month? And millions in the following years?

    You’ll have to better, alexander.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @alexander
  221. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    “If you cannot face up to what Germany became under Adolph Hitler, how can you face up to a militant totalitarian fascism emerging anywhere?”

    Yet another one-way ticket to your first love – Nazi Germany. Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Führer?

    As I said in #199, you haven’t come up with comparable people/policies. Let me guess. Kindly Adolf didn’t mean it, or his generals (in this case only) ignored his commands. He wanted natives to depart for picturesque eastern Edens, and Jews to Madagascar.

    Prove it.

    By the way, its ‘Adolf’, not ‘Adolph’.

  222. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    “I have offered numerous times ,on the Unz review, a way forward, in peace, for everyone.
    I have dealt with every single outstanding issue to the conflict, that I know of.
    If you would like me to restate it, I will.”

    Please, by all means.

    • Replies: @alexander
  223. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    “Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?”

    Shirer: ‘Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ p.532;
    Evans: ‘The Third Reich at War’ p.11;
    Wittman & Kinney: ‘The Devil’s Diary’ p.246.

    The quote is from 21 Aug 1939.

    Say hello to Joe for me. No need to ask how Magda and the kids are doing.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Sam Shama
  224. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    “I think you need to do your homework a little better.
    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts’ “Eichmann in Jerusalem” might help.”

    I read Arednt in the early 70s. As I recall, her point was how banal mass-murders were, rather like file clerks. I have news for you – even file clerks seek to minimize their crimes.

    I’m afraid to ask, but I suppose I must. Have you read Bettina Stangneth’s recent “Eichmann Before Jerusalem’? Peter Malkin’s ‘Eichmann in My Hands’? Lipstadt’s ‘The Eichmann Trial’? Wolfram Wette’s ‘The Wehrmacht’? Christopher R. Browning’s ‘Ordinary Men’, ‘The Origins of the Final Solution’, and ‘Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers’? Richard Rhodes ‘Masters of Death’? Timothy Snyder’s ‘Black Earth’ and ‘Bloodlands’? Raul Hilberg’s ‘The Destruction of the European Jews’ (three volumes)? Rudolf Höß’s ‘Commandant of Auschwitz’? Ian Kershaw’s ‘Hitler, the Germans, and The Final Solution’?

    I’m sure you have. Helpful tip: work on your comprehension skills.

    • Replies: @alexander
  225. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    Was Sofer (as commander) instructing the IDF general staff? Did they slaughter 20,000-25,000 civilians within a single city the same month? And millions in the following years?

    Saying a small wrong is ok or justified because of a previous bigger wrong is the work of an ignoramus.

    Let us hope that we do not repeat WWII.

    That is why we oppose the leader of Israel who says no to peace, and has 200 nukes and the US congress to back it up.

    That is what good people with honest intellectual natures do.

    p.s. Giving succor to Netanyahu is fools work.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  226. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    I am really beginning to believe that you Alexander, are engaged in some sort of organised and planned bs. David Sheen?!! Are you serious? I don’t want to waste my time writing a lengthy reply, but he is a liar and a really stupid one at that. He dupes American audiences by completely misrepresenting Hebrew language articles. Do you read Hebrew? If you did I could send you the articles he linked to, and you’d see what a halfwit slimeball he is. Enough.

    Listen there are lunatics in the settler community to be sure, even a large number of them, but this fellow Sheen went around saying things he attributed to Netanyahu [not a saint] which any person with their wits about them, WOULD KNOW, NO SANE PM WOULD UTTER!!. And no matter what you think of Netanyahu, he is not stupid nor insane.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @alexander
  227. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Obviously your holocaust denials extend well into Palestinian territory ,too, Mein Fuhrer.

    I guess Mr. Sofer being a full fledged fascist exterminator is hunky dory with you, so long as its the Palestinians who are slated for extermination ?

    What a paragon of utter hypocrisy you have made yourself out to be.

    You ask for any example, however remote, to indicate an intent to kill Palestinians on the part of Israelis.

    I provide you with one ( just one)….and what do you do?

    Kick in with your shameful denialist fraud.

    I expected more from you Incitatus.

  228. @Incitatus

    Both R H S Stolfi and the (odious, lying bastard antisemite holocaust denier convicted felon) David Irving have argued that most purported biographies of Hitler are incestuous: they echo one another’s work and frequently do not do their own research in primary sources. Some — such as Max Hastings — hire researchers to produce material from which they compose histories. In Hastings’ case, those franchises have earned him a knighthood from the queen whose feathers he stroked in the desired direction.

    I’ve not checked two of the three books you cite in order to determine their context and source for the quote, but I shall.

    As for Shirer, I do not consider him credible. When he wrote Rise and Fall he was broke and in a fierce dispute with Edward R. Murrow, himself an Allied propagandist. The mood Shirer was writing into was suffused with Allied triumphalism and deep hatred of Germans/Germany/Nazis; Shirer wrote to appeal to a market that would be pleased to read that Allies wore White hats and Nazis the blackest of black.

    We know that so-called evidence used to hang men at Nuremberg was forged, distorted, cherry picked or tortured out of someone; so information from Nuremberg trials is also suspect.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
    , @Sam Shama
  229. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    “Say hello to Joe for me” LOL

    btw: Just took delivery of ‘Babi Yar’. About 40% of the way through Shirer

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  230. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    “President Obama is going to ‘come out and throw a lot of spears’ at Tuesday’s upcoming debate.”

    That’s an interesting choice of words from former Governor Sanford. In fact, it is a phrase that we’ve never heard used to describe debate.

    “[Illegal Immigrants] can go out there and multiply like rats I guess.” – Assemblyman Curry Todd

    “Boy.”

    This was the term Jeff Sessions used to address one of his judicial assistants who was well over eighteen and happened to be African-American.

    Then there are the luminaries like Robert Byrd, Grand Master of the KKK or something. The list can go on and on.

    So would you Alexander, then call the USA, from north to south, east to west, a racist nation ruled by a racist government?

    • Replies: @alexander
  231. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    Art,

    I guess I missed something (happens more often the older I get).

    Show me where I said a “small wrong is ok or justified because of a previous bigger wrong.”

    I detest Bibi and Likkud. Show me what “succor” I’ve given them, please.

    You don’t really care about Bibi, Israelis, or (least of all) Palestinians. You just want to continue your Wagnarian moral epic. The phrase that comes to mind is ‘one trick pony’.

    BTW: The Reichsminister is very disappointed. Remember, all capitals and much more frequently.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Sam Shama
    , @Art
    , @Art
  232. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Shama – let people see who is truthful – you or Sheen.

  233. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Incitatus,

    YOU made the point, and it was a wholly bogus one, that Nazi Germany NEVER engaged in the “transfer” of Jews out of Germany.

    Maybe you should re-read your “list”of books.

    Study up well…..and then get back to me with some FACTS about how you insist the deportation and “transfer” of Jews from Nazi Germany, never happened.

    Because it was Eichmann’s own testimony on trial in which he stated for the record, this is “exactly” what he did.

    I suppose its hard for you to admit when you are so pitifully wrong. But I don’t care about that.

    The essential point is that Israel’s TRANSFER of Palestinians out of “Jerusalem” is an EXACT CARBON COPY of the Nazi’s transfer of Jews out of Germany.

    And it was the Nazis failure to successfully expunge the ‘Juden” from their Fatherland which led to the” final solution”.

    I certainly am not happy this is the case, but I am not in denial about it.

    Furthermore, if you don’t believe it should function as a “cautionary tale” in the brutal dispossession the Palestinians are forced to undergo, every day,please tell me why it shouldn’t ?

    I am all ears to know.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  234. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    “We know that so-called evidence used to hang men at Nuremberg was forged, distorted, cherry picked or tortured out of someone; so information from Nuremberg trials is also suspect.”

    Prove it.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  235. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Nothing in Shirer’s work is without [mostly] primary evidence/documentation. Where he offers his own opinion, he notes explicitly. In the very first chapter he discussed the issue of temporal distance of his work from the events of WW2. He addresses the inevitable criticism by noting the uniqueness of meticulous documentation, data and living testimonies which the overwhelming body of history pre-dating 3rd Reich’s did not benefit from, requiring much more time for proper seasoning. Furthermore,i t would appear logical as time progresses, writing the history of various periods of e.g., the 20th and 21st centuries need not be held to the waiting-time conventions of the past.

  236. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    I detest Bibi and Likkud. Show me what “succor” I’ve given them, please.

    “Bibi” is a term of endearment – a term of innocence – a tern of normalness – it gives succor to the devil.

  237. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Consign this fellow to the “Commenters to ignore” Box you’ll find at the top left of the comment section, in the shape of a button. I’ve done it. He’s the creation of another poster here and plays the part of the pious Christian with a visceral hatred for Jews. He can be entertaining in the same way one might enjoy watching a performing simian, but tire quickly of the limited act.

  238. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    From 9-11 up to today, the US has royally screwed the pooch in every way shape and form.

    Never has our country been in such a catastrophic state of affairs, since the Neocons took over the shop in 2001.

    Its a moral, ethical ,constitutional and fiscal disaster,….. An absolute catastrophic disaster.

    Boy, I wish it weren’t so. I would love it if it weren’t so.

    Do I think the country is “racist” ?

    I think there are no shortages of racists out there, but it seems like a reasonably diverse population on the whole.

    I think the Neocons have done a superb job in selling their Islamophobia to the US.

    It reminds me of the superb job the Nazis did, in selling their antisemitism to the Germans.

    Wouldn’t you say so too, Sam ?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  239. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    You don’t really care about Bibi, Israelis, or (least of all) Palestinians. You just want to continue your Wagnarian moral epic. The phrase that comes to mind is ‘one trick pony’.

    How about this phrase “the pot calling the kettle black?”

    Hmm – yourself, Shama, Wiz, and iffen are not “one trick ponys” – Really!

  240. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    Two tidbits on Rosenberg (Nazi ‘philosopher’ and second most popular author in Germany). He fled north from Berlin at the end of the war and joined new Führer Dönitz and company at Flensburg. Dismissed by Dönitz (there wasn’t any Ost to administer), he went for a walk, fell, and was hospitalized. He blamed his accident on an old ankle injury. Speer had a different explanation:

    “He [Rosenberg] was found almost lifeless. He spoke of having poisoned himself, and a suicide attempt was suspected, but it turned out that he was merely drunk.”
    -Albert Speer ‘Inside the Third Reich’ p.496; ‘Devil’s Diary’ p.388

    The second assessment seems pretty accurate:

    “It was Rosenberg, the intellectual high priest of the “master race,” who provided the doctrine of hatred which gave the impetus for the annihilation of Jewry, and who put his infidel theories into practice against the Eastern Occupied Territories. His woolly philosophy also added boredom to the long list of Nazi atrocities.”
    -Justice Robert H. Jackson

    Few better portraits of Nazi Leadership exist.

    All the best.

  241. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    “…get back to me with some FACTS about how you insist the deportation and “transfer” of Jews from Nazi Germany, never happened.”

    Show me where I thus espoused. Quotes please.

    I am all ears to know.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  242. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    Mostly in agreement. Racists exist in every nation, US, Israel, Europe, Asia you name it.

  243. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    You don’t really care about Bibi, Israelis, or (least of all) Palestinians.

    That is total conjecture on your part. How can you honestly say that – I have made comment after comment lamenting the treatment of Palestinians? Doesn’t the effort to do so, show some caring?

    Your slamming me is intellectually weak. You give no rational for your statement.

    Israeli Jewish Zionist fascism deserves complete condemnation

  244. @Incitatus

    It’s mystifying why so many find it so necessary to define Zionism and the actions Zionist Jews have been taking against Palestinians since at least 1917, in terms of German National Socialism.

    The modern Zionist movement/zionism pre-existed Nazism / NSDAP by at least 40 years; zionism and its racist oppression of Palestinian Arabs has perdured for over one hundred years.

    Zionism might be one of the most complex — and I would argue, fascinating — phenomenon in modern history; study of zionism requires at least a nodding acquaintance with the histories of Russia, Poland, Germany, France, Italy, Ottoman empire, Persia/Iran, Britain, the Old Testament, and numerous philosophical models, from Nietzsche to Hegel to Schmitt to Machiavelli.

    Nazism really ought to be studied, robustly and objectively but in its own context and on its own terms and in its own quite narrow timeframe. That timeframe fits within the much broader scope of Zionism. In many ways Nazism is a creature — and a necessary one at that — of zionism.

    Nazism was conquered through war waged to a military unconditional surrender in 1945, but the cultural genocide of Germany continued for at least another five years (see, for example, Books as Weapons, and Capturing the German Eye, chronicles of the psychological war carried on against the German people by the Allies, predominantly US-based Jews ) if it can be said to have ever ended.

    Zionism has completely different characteristics and behaviors from Nazism.
    Nazis did not infiltrate the governments and political processes of Britain and the USA for over 50 years, but zionists/Jews have and still do.
    The initial actions of Nazism were a defense of their own homeland against mass migration; against the attempts to Communize German political life; against attempts to destroy Germany’s economy; and against the persecution of ethnic Germans resident in states where they were a minority.
    Zionism is a totally different entity: it forthrightly has — and continues to seek — to implant Jews in the lands of another people.

    Zionism is sui generis; it must be defined and discussed on its own terms.

    Consistent resort to comparison of zionism and Israel’s behavior to Nazism muddies the waters; it distracts the debate and it is a losing proposition (and the proposition of losers). Nothing could be more satisfying to the hasbara community than to push the conversation to an argument over Nazism, therefore, that practice has got to be rejected out of hand.

    Accusations have been hurled that some here don’t really care about the Palestinians, etc. I suppose I’m on the edge of that camp: my main concern is for the integrity of the United States, which has been exploited by zionists since the Wilson administration, a situation that might well have reached the point of no return.

    If one must resort to Nazi analogies, it might be instructive to consider how the German people experienced the impact of Jewish financiers who flocked to Germany shortly after German unification; how Jewish migration to Germany overwhelmed the German economy and society; how Jewish dominance in German media, the academy, political life, and entertainment undermined and proved antithetical to German values; and how the machinations of Jewish zionist leaders such as Weizmann, Brandeis, Frankfurter, Rothschilds and others did, indeed act as a stab in the back to the German people, with whom Jews had lived for centuries, but whom Jews willingly sacrificed in order to acquire Palestine from the British;
    and
    how all of these experiences and practices are being repeated, by Israel Firsters, against the interests of the American people.
    We are Germany.

    The question then becomes, will the American people rise up to reclaim their nationhood from these antithetical influences that replicate the experiences of the German people, 1881 – 1945 and beyond, or is the extent of the subornation of American culture, Constitutional republicanism, and America-first nationalism greater than anything the USA can recover from?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  245. @Incitatus

    How many examples do you require?

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  246. alexander says:
    @Incitatus

    Okay incitatus, here goes.

    The “best” solution I could come up with, in regards to the Golan Heights ,was that Israel should offer to “lease it” from Syria, on a hundred year basis. Much like Hong Kong was leased to the Brits.

    Israel would pay a small royalty to Syria for whatever minerals or resources it extracts, and a holding fee, every decade or so.

    Syria doesn’t LOSE the Golan , and yet, Israel gets to KEEP it. And both countries have made PEACE ,not war, over the issue.

    Maybe the Israelis could throw in a few free lift tickets for Mount Hermon (to sweeten the pot)

    A MUCH better solution (in my mind) than the Neocons brutal dismemberment of Syria, we are all witnessing today

    Much better, and much less horrific too.

    In regards to the rebuilding of Solomon’s Temple, by all means, what a fantastic idea.

    But why does it have to be built right on TOP of the Dome of the Rock. ? That seems like such an incendiary thing to do, I would, by all means, build it ,but pick a better spot.

    And if you are asking me, in all honesty, whether the Jews deserve a state of their own, I would have to say they do, certainly after the Holocaust they do. Jews should have the right to control their own destiny, no doubt about it.

    But it is wholly unethical for me to claim the right for Jews to have their own state, and somehow claim the Palestinians DON’T have the same right ?

    Of course they do!

    Sorry, the Palestinians deserve a state of their own, and after the Nakba, no less so.

    The “right of return”, which is an authentic right, should be negotiated. The Palestinians who give up their “right” to return to their home in what is NOW Israel, should be compensated(handsomely) and allowed to resettle in the Palestinian state, East of the green line.

    The Israel settlements, East of the green line, should have to choose between one of three options, 1)abandonment, 2) merging with Israel West of the green line, OR 3) being incorporated into the Palestinian state and have to pay taxes to Palestine and obey the Palestinian laws of the land.

    Whatever settlements that choose to merge with Israel, should pay fair compensation to Palestine
    for Palestinian loss of land and resources, or provide a land swap of equal value.

    I think Gaza should offer Israel a percentage of its substantial gas reserves which exist in its territorial waters, in exchange for Israel sharing its desalinization technology as well as Israel agreeing to help rebuild Gaza’s decimated infrastructure.

    I think Jerusalem should be governed by a wholly independent tribunal .
    Those members should constitute a third Israeli, a third Palestinian, and a third UN appointees.

    All proceeds from tourism into a Jerusalem “at peace” should be fairly divided between Israel and Palestine.

    Peace brings enormous security and liberty for everybody (not to mention substantial tourist revenues).

    Perpetual war just breeds hate ,fear, terror and death. (not so good , even if you are the winner)

    So those were my suggestions, Incitatus , for whatever they are worth.

    • Replies: @Anynomous
    , @Incitatus
  247. @SolontoCroesus

    I”m too busy to check minutely but I can’t recall anything which justifies your effectively contradicting me with the words “you based your claim on the statement”. What claim did I base on what “statement”? Of course I treated it, unquestioned as it was until you raised the issue of its provenance, as nice neat shorthand support for what there is plenty of other evidence for.

    Why didn’t *you* take it up immediately with Incitatus?

    Moreover you don’t seem to have grasped the point I made about the Holdsworth dedication by someone who must have known over 40+ years and perhaps been disappointed by German scholars and former Rhodes Scholars but noted what their military people had unleashed on Belgium in 1914 and then Poland in 1939 and onwards. My point was that, to the extent that you don’t blame Hitler you must blame the ordinary German for their treatment of the conquered to the East (and West to a lesser extent). My upper class German hosts (actually not the less educated Mutti so much) when I was a student learning German wouldn’t have disagreed. It was with them that I learned of the still vast hinterland of relatively primitive peasantry which existed long after WW2 and was fine when it meant a maid in peasant costume came in from her village on the other side of the forest (now cut down) every morning. One only has to look at Britain’s soccer hooligans to see similar potential for savagery and be prompted to think that Britain’s blessed “sceptred isle” had a few bits of happenstance going for it that didn’t put it to Germany’s tests despite your mote and beam citations. The dual loss of class prestige in Britain and the reversal of its eugenic breeding for several hundred years until about 1875 are enough cause for gloom about Anglo civilisation considering its state in the US. (I am a bit hopeful that Australia’s smart Chinese and Indians will offset our downgrading by the boring-rather-than-nasty self-serving enjoyers of others’ productivity and enterprise. That will do for Anglo civilisation for me).

    As to your mote and beam section which I have just glanced at so far I don’t think famines and blockades are in the same category as executions and massacres and I am sure you know that this also conforms to traditional intuitions about morality. (And you don’t mention the U boat campaigns of both World Wars as relevant on your terms). As to Amritsar I note that General Dyer was not treated as a blameless functionary by the British government (House of Commons committee?? Cp. Warren Hastings in the 18th century and by contrast nothing done about Otto Frank in the 20th by his government just a telephone call away). Moreover “British soldiers” is at best misleading as they were – from memory – Indians though General Dyer was in command.

  248. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Joe Martin Jr.

    I probably agree with you on the matter at hand.

    Never the less, you namecall “mad dogs” all Muslims. If this were said of all Jews, what would your reaction be?
    I am against namecalling “mad dogs” all groups of humans on earth.

    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
  249. Anynomous says:
    @alexander

    I can hardly recall reading anything more balanced and wise than this.

    Too bad humans (specially those who hold the knife by the handle, or feel they do) are governed by will-to-power, instead of wisdom.
    They prefer to war and suffer rather than make peace accepting limits to their power, and enjoy existence, as much as it is enjoyable.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @alexander
  250. @Art

    Words have meanings and contexts which help to define the meaning of what is said. Try to deal with what is said rather than what is boiling round in your fevered imagination.

  251. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    How easily the flights of your colourful mind at once traverse millennia, yet remain stuck on the tarmac as they posit Zionism’s seeding in the philosophies of Hegel, Nietzsche – and oh yes, Machiavelli, the prince you admire, and whose ‘virtu’[if memory serves] you’ve exhorted good leaders and nations follow in rejection of jewish thinking….and wait for it …presto! in a 180 degree turn, jewish zionism is now in part, a creature of Machiavellian thought! – I think these travels rather more require worm-holes, than mere aircraft.

    Having thus established all the philosophy, travelled a worm-hole, and a paragraph or two, Zionism then is gravely announced to be sui generis.

    Have you been applying yourself rather generously to a Widow Jane?

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Incitatus
  252. @Anonymous

    I’ve wired and traveled extensively in the Muslim world from Morocco to Indonesia and the level or irrationality and blind hatred far surpasses that than I have found in any other parts of the world. I don’t see Jews or Christians locking people in cages and setting them on fire. I don’t see them conducting mass beheadings in the name of their religion. I don’t see them maintaining sexual slavery prisons. I don’t see them flying airplanes into buildings. I don’t see them running over women and children in the street. So if I choose to call them mad dogs it’s because I see plenty of evidence to back it up. Islam is a death cult. Has been since it’s very inception.

  253. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anynomous

    I can hardly recall reading anything more balanced and wise than this.

    not since Chamberlain acquiesced to Hitler taking possession of the Sudetenland and declaring it Peace In Our Time.

    Well done, Neville. Encouraging thieves to retain their spoils because it is “better than the rightful owner fighting over it” just goes to prove how wrong Churchill was.

  254. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Now wait a minute, Sam.

    Are you stating, for the record, that David Sheen’s testimony before the Russell Tribunal in 2014 was wholly contrived and fraudulent clap trap?

    Is this what you are saying ?

    Did you view it on you tube ?

    Please tell me what he says, in this testimony, that is fraudulent ?

    I am curious to know.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  255. alexander says:
    @Anynomous

    Thanks Anonymous,

    Imagine what it would be like for the region, and the world, if this conflict was thoroughly resolved.

    If security and freedom are our most valued possessions, isn’t a lasting Peace, above all else, their greatest guarantor ?

    • Replies: @Art
  256. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    Alexander
    My impression of you is of a compassionate and smart person.

    Sheen and his ilk [Blumenthal comes a close second], activist-pugilists have created a lucrative niche living in Israel. They live in the state and focus only on the racists [there are more than a few] and never have anything balanced to say.

    I think Sheen pulled some stunt where he and Blumenthal pursued a poor lefty German lawmaker in the Bundestag until he took refuge in the bathroom. Their full bellicosity and bile were on display. After that incident the parliament banned the two from appearing in the vicinity.

    I am unimpressed, and whatever they are trying to sell won’t gain purchase in a meaningful way.

  257. Art says:
    @alexander

    If security and freedom are our most valued possessions, isn’t a lasting Peace, above all else, their greatest guarantor ?

    Apparently not for Israel – here is a very interesting article about occupation and peace within political Israel. In Israel the left and right are divided over peace (two state) or occupation. It is the Euro Jews (for two state) against the ME Jews (for occupation). Ashkenazi vs. Sephardic.

    This article is about a possible civil war between the two.

    Israel’s “rapidly approaching” civil war

    By Uri Avnery

    From the article:

    A lot of Israelis have begun to talk of “two Jewish societies” in Israel, some even talk about “two Jewish peoples” within the Israeli Jewish nation.

    What holds them together?

    The conflict, of course. The occupation. The perpetual state of war.

    http://www.redressonline.com/2016/09/israels-rapidly-approaching-civil-war/

  258. De Gaulle says:

    Peace obstacles from middle east are new look at old European problems. Allow me to explain.
    Jews do not all think or act alike. Why does American press pretend that to be the case?
    There are Jews who are honorable and there are Jews who are despicable, and there are many strains for example Ashkenazim, Haredim, Sephardim, Mizrahim and Hasidim.
    One inadequately explored part of Jewish history and impact on the world is the historical contribution to animus in Europe. Some Jews in Poland – Lithuania made life worse for fellow Jews because they defrauded and abused Poles and Litwaks, and Russians, and Ukranians. All Jews suffer from reactions to that, and wonder why they suffer if their family did nothing bad. Should they turn on fellow Jews who defraud and abuse, or would their community turn on them? That is the age old question from eastern Europe and a question again in the middle east.
    Should a Jew feel guilty because an Oligarch stole, or a coin clipper or usurer hurt people? Does it hurt the world or heal the world to look at community issues, or hush them up and demonize askers?

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @SolontoCroesus
  259. RobinG says:
    @De Gaulle

    “All Jews suffer from reactions to that, and wonder why they suffer if their family did nothing bad.”
    This is also Art’s essential point, that “Little (honorable) Jews” will suffer because of acts of “Big (despicable) Jews.

    You follow up with the telling idiom “turn on.” (“Should they turn on fellow Jews who defraud and abuse, or would their community turn on them?”)
    Any criticism within the tribe is seen as disloyalty, so most refrain due to fear of ostracism. Does their silence mean assent? Many members of the local synagogue are ashamed of Israel’s behavior, yet they keep the big banner outside that says they support Israel.

  260. @De Gaulle

    I first became aware of the tensions between diverse Jewish ethnic groups through a history of Jews in Pittsburgh: German Jews settled in Pittsburgh quite early and became prosperous. Eastern European Jews came later and were tolerated, sometimes shunned by the now-upper-class German Jews. This came to public notice when a Russian Jewess became mayor of the City — and a very effective administrator. Local histories of Jews in Pittsburgh discussed the conflicts the migration of E. European Jews, and the success of one of that number, created in the already established Jewish community. It’s still there, to an extent: German & Sephardic Jews live in the finest part of town; the second largest group in Section 8 housing is Russian Jews.

    The German people, Hitler, and German government officials also understood that dichotomy.

    Evidence:

    http://www.jta.org/1933/05/26/archive/nazi-jewish-policies-political-not-religious-dr-luther-asserts

    26 May 1933 Mt Vernon NY

    A strong defense of the anti-Semitic policies of the Nazi regime in Germany was made here last night by Dr. Hans Luther, German ambsasador to this country.
    . . .
    Prejudice against the Jews, he said, was due to their tendency toward movements of a communistic nature, and to the fact that nearly fifty percent of the government officails have been Jews, although the total Jewish population was only one percent. He denied emphatically that there had been any “atrocities”.

    He asserted that limitation of Jewish influence in Germany was being conducted with the greatest possible consideration toward the old native Jewish families who, he said; had proven themselves good Germans and indicated that it was directed against the Eastern European Jews who had overflooded the country since the War.

    Zionist zealots like Rabbi Stephen Wise & Samuel Untermyer exacerbated the situation for Jews in Germany.

  261. Wally says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz

    More infantile propaganda from you, essentially a witchcraft believer. Your impossible world is nothing but a primitive religion, false idols, shrines, the works. LOL!!

    There are NO enormous excavated mass graves as alleged, period. Why do you ignore physical reality?
    If you could actually show excavated enormous mass graves then you would, you cannot.
    If you think you can then try posting them here:
    forum.codoh.com

    http://www.codoh.com has links to countless well researched works, i.e.:
    Air Photo Evidence

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/27-ape.pdf

    more:
    see research which demolishes the impossible ’6M Jews’canard:
    ‘Holocaust Handbooks’

    http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1

    see ‘holocaust’ debunking videos:

    Questioning the Holocaust: Why We Believed (Part 1 of 2)

    http://codoh.com/library/document/4056/

    The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax

    http://codoh.com/library/document/3286/

    Holocaust, Hate Speech & Were the Germans so Stupid?

    http://codoh.com/library/document/1530/

    3D Imagery Demonstrates the Auschwitz Hole Hoax

    http://codoh.com/library/document/3920/

    The Majdanek Gas Chamber Myth

    http://codoh.com/library/document/3343/

    Auschwitz—The Surprising Hidden Truth

    http://codoh.com/library/document/1527

    http://codoh.com/news/3359/

    Curated Lies
    The Auschwitz Museum’s Misrepresentations, Distortions and Deceptions
    By Carlo Mattogno

    And why do you want 6M Jews to be dead? Revisionist don’t, I don’t.

    We bring you good news.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  262. Incitatus says:
    @alexander

    alexander,

    Sorry to have delayed reading #248. I suspect we may agree in many areas. Let me respond in order:

    • Golan Heights. Israel should cede it in return for permanent peace with Syria. But you’re right – that’s not going to happen. Leasing seems reasonable for both sides. The only loose end is whether Syrian refugees could return to Israeli administered territory. If not, they should be compensated by Israel.
    • Neocons: Those who launched the 2003 Iraq War (neocons and others, all the way to the top), should be indicted and tried for war crimes. Conspiracy against peace, launching aggressive war. Other crimes (incitement through false op-eds and news, torture, war profiteering, etc.) should also be prosecuted. Advocates for military intervention in Libya and Syria should be indicted for similar crimes.
    • Syria: disengage from conflict, stop aiding rebels, render secure nonmilitary aid to refugee safe havens for the duration. Emphasize education: kids are the future. Ban weapons shipments to the region. Sy Hersh and Robert Fisk make more sense than our administration.
    • Temple Mount: The Haram esh-Sharif should be maintained intact. Demolition schemes should be condemned as vile extremism. Advocates should be charged with sedition.
    • Palestinian State: Pals deserve either a viable, independent state or handsome compensation (or both). [see text below]
    • Settlements (colonies): first link any/all US aid to ceasing new construction and condemn them in the UN. Second, your alternates are reasonable.
    • Jerusalem: tribunal governance (Israelis, Pals, & UN) seems fair;
    • Tourism revenues equally distributed (Jews & Pals) seems fair;

    Likkud Israel won’t consider a viable, independent Pal state on occupied territory. It’s also worried about losing the ‘battle of the bedroom’ (Pal birth rates and higher demographic growth). How can it remain a Jewish state if outnumbered by non-Jewish citizens? For that reason the ‘right of return’ (which I favor) won’t happen. That’s the Likkud starting position.

    I’ve long supported Green Line borders and an independent Pal state. Are there interim measures that improve their economy, status, and dignity? What begins as a supervised Pal state could, with trust based on mutual performance, become an independent state in future. It’d take time, but it’s possible.

    Measures Israel should consider (some from #182):
    • Adopt a Constitution and Bill of Rights: codify equal rights (Jews & Pals);
    • Equally enforce the law, investigations, and prosecutions (Jews & Pals);
    • End targeted assassination: visibly commit to legal due process;
    • End indefinite detention without charge;
    • End incitement/repression policy (‘mowing the lawn’);
    • Demolition: end or equally enforce collective punishment (Jews & Pals);
    • Summarily dismiss government officials and employees for racist comments;
    • Adopt a zero tolerance policy on racism (Jews & Pals, etc.);
    • Education: equalize government support (Jews & Pals);
    • Promote educational outreach between both sides (Jews & Pals);
    • Equally enforce building codes and permits (Jews & Pals);
    • Require true buyer identification in all real estate transactions;
    • End preferential subsidies for Jewish settlers or extend them to Pals;
    • Highways: open access to all (Jews & Pals);
    • Checkpoints: reduce the number and eliminate punitive treatment of Pals;
    • Tax Revenues: stop coercive retainaige of Pal funds;
    • Water Rights: distribute equally, end preferential quotas and subsidies;
    • End governmental religious subsidies (Jews & Pals);
    • Ease Gaza’s economic embargo and allow more imports/exports;
    • Demilitarize policy: force should be the last option;
    • Prioritize improving relations with Lebanon, Syria and Iran, tone-down aggressive language;

    Measures the USA should consider:
    • Reduce/end free weapons and munitions for Israel (and Egypt);
    • Withdraw Israel’s carte blanche at the UN and link support to actual performance;
    • Stop forwarding Meta Data collected on individual Pal-American citizens to Israel;
    • Require AIPAC register as a foreign lobbyist;
    • Promote diverse, balanced news coverage of Israel and Palestine.

    Measures the Palestinians should consider:
    • Enforce a nonviolent code of conduct: end stone throwing, knife attacks, etc;
    • Adopt a zero tolerance policy on racism;
    • Summarily dismiss government officials and employees for racist comments;
    • Ban religious incitement to violence;
    • Outlaw paramilitary attacks and rockets fired into Israel.

    Each side can exercise reciprocal rights to add/modify/veto items. Most will never happen. But negotiations start somewhere.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Art
  263. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    A belated well done Sam! Enjoyed every word.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  264. Incitatus says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I’m no historian. The genealogical standard seems fair enough. Three independent, reputable sources.

    Reputable: i.e. peer-reviewed and respected; widely published and scrutinized; has direct knowledge of events or able to substantiate them beyond doubt; verifiable through credible sources; impartial/unbiased in character and temperament.

  265. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    An opening master list for negotiations.

    I’d for the longest time held hope for the 2SS, relinquishing it when Bibi was re-elected, its fate further sealed with the elevation of that demon Lieberman to defence ministership.. I reckon I fear what you fear, which is that short of a forceful American withdrawal of support, things get worse before they get better. I had written a few months back that IDF general staff and senior leadership are the ones to be supported – even though it appeared counterintuitive to most here on UR – for meaningful change to occur in Israel.

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/how-russia-is-preparing-for-wwiii/?highlight=IDF#comment-1435351

    http://www.unz.com/article/fifty-one-foreign-service-officers-cant-be-wrong/?highlight=IDF#comment-1464000

    • Replies: @Incitatus
    , @RobinG
  266. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Thanks Incitatus. My training in is maths and econ, lacking history and philosophy. So I try to read what people write, carefully, but am frequently reduced to scratching my head.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  267. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    • Palestinian State: Pals deserve either a viable, independent state or handsome compensation (or both)

    There is ONLY one solution to the Right of Return for the Palestinians, and that is that their rights are bought out with money (big money – yearly money) – PERIOD.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  268. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Thanks Sam.

    I had similar 2SS hopes, but facts on the ground necessarily affect my position. Maybe it’s possible after trust is established? In 30 years? So the problem is how to incrementally establish trust, tiny step by tiny step, for both sides. If possible, it won’t be easy. But focusing on specific complaints and potential improvements sets a pragmatic agenda.

    I blank on comparable historical precedents. Cyprus since 1974 isn’t helpful. The best I can think of is French Canada after the fall of Montréal (1760). Habitants were guaranteed freedom of religion and a large degree of economic continuity in return for a loyalty oath. Brits (outnumbered by their new subjects) were prudent. The test came almost immediately with Pontiac’s War (1763-66). Despite the lure of re-visiting the lost war, most habitants stayed loyal to their oaths. There were subsequent bumps on the way (e.g. Patriot’s War 1837-38). But today Québec is a vital, contributing part of Canada with full citizen rights. Periodic votes for independence have thus far been unsuccessful. Who would have guessed it in 1760?

    All the best

  269. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    I’m afraid my poor, barren scalp shows the effects of similar puzzlement.

  270. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    Art

    How about blaming the NE drought on Israel?

    Just trying to be helpful.

    To be honest, the Reichsminister’s been unpleasantly vocal lately at Hasbara Central, and we’d appreciate your help in putting his shade to rest.

    Remember: all caps and very, very often.

  271. @Wally

    at are the allegations of mass graves that you dispute? Who has made these allegations and where? I am not aware that mass graves would be needed for regular deposits of ashes so I am really not sure what you or anyone else is getting excited about. Presumably Babi Yar – 30,000 approx on 29 September 1941 – counts as a mass grave however????

  272. @Mark Green

    DISAGREE on this part of your otherwise important comment: imo you handicap yourself and other activists by overemphasizing so-called Jewish intellectual superiority.

    At least recognize that such a claim is an overgeneralization, and that it gives the group that Jeff Gates refers to as a “criminal gang” more leverage over their opposition than they are entitled to, or that is beneficial to the necessary project of undoing their criminal dominance over US culture (among other societies, as you noted).

    Just now I can’t stop thinking about the conversation between De Gaulle & RobinG: http://www.unz.com/article/the-obstacle-to-peace/#comment-1556829

    One inadequately explored part of Jewish history and impact on the world is the historical contribution to animus in Europe. Some Jews in Poland – Lithuania made life worse for fellow Jews because they defrauded and abused Poles and Litwaks, and Russians, and Ukranians. All Jews suffer from reactions to that, and wonder why they suffer if their family did nothing bad.

    Vladimir Jabotinsky expressed similar sentiments: he was appalled at the conditions of his “brethren” in states east of his native Odessa. (Jabotinsky was far more fond of the Romans and of Mussolini.)

    Arthur Ruppin, the German Jew who “produced Hebrew culture in Palestine” made a similar appraisal: Eastern European Jews were of less desirable “human material” for creating the “new Jew” that would colonize Berlin-on-the – Meditarranean in Palestine.

    Polish Jews are qualitatively different from Jews who remained in the Middle East – South Asia; some studies say the latter group measures a lower average IQ; they’re also less deceptive and cunning.

    One popular historian of Jewish life since the 18th century observed that Polish society had not developed the social, political, and economic structures that were a necessary condition to democratization and industrialization, hence Poland remained backward as the British and Germans advanced and leap-frogged each other in industrial and cultural development. That is why so many Polish Jews flocked to Germany: the Poland where the majority of Jews in Europe dwelt was a cultural and economic backwater. Jews had been there since about 1200 AD. If Jews were so intellectually gifted, why didn’t they bring their talents to bear on Polish society?

    It’s worth noting that a majority of Israel’s founders and present leaders are from Poland-Lithuania-Russia-Hungary, and that most of the Jewish neocons in the USA are as well. If they (or their parents) were educated in Europe, chances are they went to German or Austrian universities, or Russian universities, which were conducted on German or French or Italian models.

    Ashkenazi (meaning strictly German) Jews had a far higher survival rate than either Polish – Russian – Lithuanian or Hungarian Jews; that’s not an accident: German Jews were wealthier, more likely to be educated, and more desirable as migrants to Palestine or to USA. East European Jews were, apparently, considered expendable by Jewish leaders, since they did not take the same pains to remove Polish and Russian Jews from fields that were far more deadly, far earlier, as they did for German Jews beginning in Feb. 1933. Jews emerged from a shepherding tradition: they culled the herd; the smartest and wealthiest survived.

    To the extent that “Jews are smarter,” the above are some of the reasons why.

    To arrive at a fair comparison of relative intellectual achievement, a similar back-of-the-envelope assessment of other European ethnics, and Americans, in the context of the separate challenges and opportunities they experienced in the WWI, inter-war, and WWII and beyond eras is essential, unless one subscribes to a racialist notion of intelligence, which, imho, tells less than half of the story.

  273. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Its one of those days, flak incoming from all directions… but this is for you, Sam. (I hope the link to Ronnie Barkan’s posting of video works.) More later.

    https://www.facebook.com/BDSBarkan/videos/vb.1535858456655016/1795416750699184/?type=2&theater

  274. Art says:

    To be honest, the Reichsminister’s been unpleasantly vocal lately at Hasbara Central, and we’d appreciate your help in putting his shade to rest.

    Incitatus,

    Sorry but here in a corner office on the top floor of Hasbara Central, I do not have time for Nazi ghosts. We are serious hasbaraists up here. (Hmm – guess that is why you are in in the basement and I am on the top floor – hmm, guess someone has to do the low level work.)

    Art

    p.s. Just got my bonus check – man am I in the shekels.

    p.s. Need a loam? I’ll make you a deal – you get the family interest rate (wink-wink).

    p.s. Ya – I know – “what a guy I am.” (Thanks for saying it.)

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  275. Blake says:
    @Quartermaster

    The UN General Assembly partition was a recommendation only. They referred it to the Security Council – UN body where resolutions are ratified into law – where it died. It was then that ‘israel’ declared itself into existence on stolen ethnically cleansed – under the barrel of a terrorist gun – on stolen Palestinian land.

    UN cannot take land from one and give to another it can make recommendations and if both sides agree it can be ratified in the SC into law. That did not happen here.

    Furthermore, when ‘israel’ was accepted into the UN on CONDITIONS – which it agreed to but has never adhered to – surely after 68 yrs it should be expelled! Why is it being treated with kid gloves.

  276. Blake says:

    Hate to say it but there is a bunch of Europeans on here either telling Palestinians what they should do or propagandists for the European zionists gloating at their crimes in the heist of Palestine. I only care what the natives think. We always seem to know whats best for everyone hence the messed up world we live in. If a country wants to be independent of American foreign policy they get invaded.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  277. Art says:

    To whom it may concern,

    A peace plan for Palestine/Israel.

    The first most unsolvable problem in the Palestine/Israel confrontation is the Right of Return for the Palestinian people. Clearly the Palestinians have a moral right to the use of their property. Just as clearly Israel will never allow the Palestinians to return. Clearly Israel is in the wrong. It has to do something for these people.

    The only way out of this dilemma is for Israel to buy out the Palestinian peoples Rights of Return. A clear contractual bargain must be made – money for rights. The payment must be substantial and payed over many years, and final. The Palestinians must leave and emigrate elsewhere. This same bargain must be offered the Arabs who live in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza.

    For those Arabs who wish to stay in Israel, they must be given 100% citizenship. The same in a one state solution. If there is two state solution – Palestine must have all the access rights that all nations enjoy.

    The second most insolvable problem is security. The Jeffersonian ideal of a village society did not flourish in Israel. The ideal of a Jewish kibbutz society has not born fruit. Instead Zionist Israel has become a marshal pariah in the ME. It has made so many enemies that it justifiably fears for its security. Its military is what holds Israel together. This requires a permanent state of belligerence with the world. It has come to the point that politically “peace” is voted against by the Israeli people. Israeli belligerence is escalating. A nation with 200 hidden nukes is destabilizing for the whole world.

    One state or two state – the following must happen. The Security Council of UN created Israel – clearly it created a military monster. The permanent members of the UN Security Council must step up and guaranty Israeli security by taking over the military responsibility for its protection. The US, UK, France, Russia, and China must guaranty Israel’s security. That is the only way to save the Jews from themselves.

    Art

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Incitatus
  278. RobinG says:
    @Blake

    “…there is a bunch of Europeans on here either telling Palestinians what they should do or propagandists for the European zionists…”

    Quite right, and it smells like both.

    Take for example, ‘aid should be conditional on settlements’ blah blah blah. Settlements are irrelevant. The US shouldn’t be giving aid to nuclear armed Israel, period. And that’s actually about the only thing everybody here agrees on.

    US (that’s us) should take responsibility for its own actions, and there’s no better place to start than cutting off all aid to Israel. They don’t need it, they act worse because of it, and it makes us complicit in their crimes.

    A lawsuit was filed in Federal Court in August for this pupose…

    http://www.courthousenews.com/2016/08/10/on-eve-of-aid-boost-researcher-flags-israels-clandestine-nukes.htm

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
  279. RobinG says:
    @Art

    Right of return is the heart of Palestine’s struggle.

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/right-return-heart-palestines-struggle/17856

    “No leader can surrender Palestinians’ right to return after 68 years of exile.”

  280. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    Art,

    An interesting post (seriously).

    Compensation should be offered Palestinians in lieu the right of return. A tax on revenues from newly discovered energy fields could finance the program. Recipients should make assurances that funds won’t simply be used to finance terrorism from neighboring states.

    If Israel withdraws to the Green Line, Palestinians should be allowed to return to Gaza and the West Bank and establish their own state. That’s preferable, but unlikely while Likkud’s in the drivers seat.

    Gaza and the West Bank Palestinians should be citizens if permanently incorporated in Israel. It’d take time. Meanwhile, both sides should make concessions that lead to trust and stop the bloodshed.

    Why are UNSC member guarantees of Israeli security necessary? In return for surrendering it’s nukes? It’s doubtful that’ll happen. If the goal is to reduce Israel’s “state of belligerence” (which I abhor), normalizing relations with Lebanon and Syria would be a start. The UNSC should condemn the belligerence of any country. In Israel’s case, the US should no longer veto legitimate resolutions.

    Eliminating free US weapons would also help. Three-quarters of our aid to Israel goes to US defense contractors, so it’s really a subsidy for our bloated industry. It’ll rise to 100% if aid increases as per current negotiations.

    • Replies: @Art
  281. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    I’ll look for you at Hasbara Central. They don’t let us up very often, but I can always use a loan.

  282. Art says:
    @Incitatus

    I clicked the link in Robin’s #275 comment – it was most revealing and disturbing. It showed that Israel is manic about its future. Those women on the link were totally hyper over BDS destroying Israel – it was sick. Their mouths went a mile a minute – there was no reflective thought – just paranoid brainstem charge after thoughtless brainstem charge. Israel is operating on its brainstem.

    And it showed that Netanyahu actually has great influence over the Zionist Jews in Israel. I see no hope that Israel can right itself. To remain in power, it is obvious that the Zionists have to keep the manic fear ball rolling.

    The only thing that can turn around Israel is the Jew diaspora in the Western states.

    These Jews have a defensive self-interest in shutting down Zionist adventurism.

    They need to get with it before it is too late.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  283. Incitatus says:

    Max Blumenthal’s work (‘Goliath’ and ‘The 51 Day War’) shows the alarming growth of extremism. It facilitates parties like Likkud and their allies, who then use incidents to incite still higher levels. A dangerous, self feeding cycle.

    An antidote may be to concentrate on small, achievable steps that improve life for all. If one responds to extremist rhetoric with similar sentiment nothing tends to change.

    As the saying goes, ‘an eye for an eye’ leads to a world full of blind men.

  284. anon • Disclaimer says:

    musing –

    Jimmy Carter, of all people, is perhaps the greatest, or at least one of the first great obstacles to peace between I & P: he paved the way for the holocasut museum in Washington DC. he admitted the Trojan Horse.

    the greatest obstacle to peace between I and P is USA, that continues to fund Israel’s psych pathology.

    proposals about dividing land this way or that; signing contracts this way or that — these are just Sykes-Picot 3.0; Oslo 4.0. Israel does not honor contracts or treaties any more than USA honors treaties it does not like; Israel responds only to brute force — that’s what Israelis telegraph when neocons say “Iran, or Islam, or ISIS or whomever respect only force.”

    Similarly, what is required to settle I & P are some of those other Luntzian catch-phrases that were current in years past: “change the hearts and minds.” “sanction them until they change their behavior;” “sanction them until the regime is toppled and a new regime takes charge;” “keep punishing them until they come to the table.”

    Israelis — and many many Jews — have neural pathways made of concrete. They need to be blown to bits and reassembled: lose the fake persecution complex: nobody cares about you that much to want only to hurt Jews.
    Stop thinking that getting away with cheating someone is clever: people will resent it eventually.
    Stop thinking you can get away with lying indefinitely: you know how the saying goes, about fooling all of the people some of the time, etc. Well, you’ve maxed out. You should recognize the signs, it’s happened before.

    Jews need an attitude correction.
    If Jewish attitudes do not change, nothing will change, nothing will improve. If Jews think the status quo is sustainable indefinitely, see above: You can fool some of the people . . .

    A US president who truly wants to make the USA a free nation committed to its own best interests will imitate FDR: demand unconditional surrender of Netanyahu, the destruction of the zionist political structure, the Dresdening of settlements, and sustained de-zionisation of the Jewish people, just as was done to the German people for a decade and more after the war ended.

    • Replies: @anon
  285. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    heh heh heh

    lips to ears –

    Obama grows a spine:

    Rumor is circulating that a significant diplomatic proclamation is discreetly brewing in the Oval Office. Should this rumor come to pass, it will mark a level of diplomatic perfidy not seen since the backstabbing that took place at the Munich Conference in September 1938.

    The surprise introduction by the United States of a UN Security Council resolution to establish parameters for territorial concession in Judea and Samaria – without the input or consent of Israel – should hardly be viewed as unlikely in view of Obama’s flagrant circumvention of Congress to consummate his Iran deal. Seeking to cement his imprimatur, Obama isn’t above using the UN as a cudgel to deliver this parting kiss to Congress. http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/294638-lone-wolf-at-the-un

    the jewish press is enraged, so enraged that it’s making comparisons to Munich (no, wait — that happens every second day). well, anyway: jews is mad, they’ve been back stabbed.

    CALL THE WHITE HOUSE
    CALL YOUR CONGRESSMAN

    give them your SUPPORT for USA imposing a peace on Israel — “liberate” Israel just the way USA liberated Germany and Iraq (& tell ‘em to frog march the Conference of Jewish Presidents & ship em to Gitmo).

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/contact/write-or-call

    Call the President
    PHONE NUMBERS
    Comments: 202-456-1111
    Switchboard: 202-456-1414

    TTY/TTD
    Comments: 202-456-6213
    Visitor’s Office: 202-456-2121

    Write a letter to the President
    Here are a few simple things you can do to make sure your message gets to the White House as quickly as possible.

    If possible, email us! This is the fastest way to get your message to President Obama.

    If you write a letter, please consider typing it on an 8 1/2 by 11 inch sheet of paper. If you hand-write your letter, please consider using pen and writing as neatly as possible.

    Please include your return address on your letter as well as your envelope. If you have an email address, please consider including that as well.

    And finally, be sure to include the full address of the White House to make sure your message gets to us as quickly and directly as possible:
    The White House
    1600 Pennsylvania Avenue NW
    Washington, DC 20500

    .

  286. RobinG says:
    @Art

    Hi Art,

    You may be right. You may be completely right, but words like “only” don’t sit well with me. The Western Jews may have a big influence, but it’s a little dicey since Israelis resent outside advice from anyone.

    According to Uri Avnery, change may come from within, as in civil war. I don’t really follow his logic (do you know if he’s right about the Ashkenazim-Sephardim split? Bibi and so many of the militants have been eastern Europeans, so it seems a false generalization to me. Anyone know?) This has already been posted at Unz, and it’s interesting.

    http://uriavnery.com/en/hatur.html

    About the video (thanks for watching) you said, “Those women on the link were hyper over BDS destroying Israel.” It looks that way, and their hysteria and the money that Israel is putting into fighting BDS is cited by BDS activists as proof that their campaign is meaningful and successful. On the other hand some, like Gilad Atzmon, say that BDS has no teeth and is being run by “anti-Zionist Zionists” in a theater-op of ‘good Jews vs. bad Jews’ that ensures no real progress.

    IMO they’re both half-right. Gilad is so esoteric that he’s of no use in the real world, and he so stridently attacks some decent people that I wonder what his game really is, if he even knows. (My anti-Zionist Israeli friend calls him an idiot, and that’s pretty apt.) Meanwhile, BDS is not really a threat (and apparently was not what changed S. Africa, either), but at least it keeps the issue in the press. So, could those hyper Israeli women just be faking it for the public?

    Then there’s always the Black Swan possibility. Jewish author Jonathan Safran Foer’s new Jewish novel, “Here I Am” is being heavily promoted and celebrated (but not at the New Republic where it got a harsh panning). A feature of the book is a serious earthquake in Israel, so the protagonist gets to reflect even more on his Jewishness. He apparently doesn’t go to Israel to help.

    I don’t plan to read Foer’s book. (If I want a dose of Jewish angst and narcissistic naval-gazing, I can read a few comments at MondoWeiss.) But if Foer is really today’s Golden Jewish Writer it may actually affect the psyche of many American Jews, who knows in what direction.

    • Replies: @Art
    , @Art
    , @Sam Shama
  287. Talha says:
    @RobinG

    Dear RobinG,

    I had not been paying much attention to this article, but glad I read through it and some of the comments.

    Great link – scary stuff – thanks for sharing!

    Peace.

  288. Art says:
    @RobinG

    RobinG,

    Those women in your comment #275 are indicative of the Zionist Jew culture. They were manic and hyper. They were 100% sure that the world has intentions to kill them and Israel. They had masterful command of their rapid fear laden speech. They knew their alarming anxiety ridden subject well. Was this heartfelt or political? For sure it is standard Israeli Zionist politics (24/7/365).

    With that said, most every Israeli Zionist Jew (about 95%) are a nanosecond away from paranoia. Why do they irrationally fear all the world? Is it nature or nurture? Is it genetics or culture? It is most definitely in large part – nurture and culture.

    I believe that most every 5-year-old Israeli child has been terrorized by his family and culture. They have been subjected to psychological fearmongering at a tender age. They have been mentally traumatized by the spoken drum beat, that the world wants to kill them. Their brains are modified by this trauma. All childhood trauma leaves one scarred for life. These fears lay dormant in their subconscious. It leaves them with an irrational fear based rational for the rest of their lives. These children will be morally deficient for life. It allows them to strike back with thoughtless abandon. Does that not describe most Israelis?

    Is this true of Western diaspora Jews also – yes but to lesser degree – depending on how Christian the nation is. Christian philosophical culture does moderate some tribal hate.

    Art

    p.s. What part genetic nature plays in all this, is another worthy subject.

  289. Art says:
    @RobinG

    Gilad is so esoteric that he’s of no use in the real world, and he so stridently attacks some decent people that I wonder what his game really is, if he even knows. (My anti-Zionist Israeli friend calls him an idiot, and that’s pretty apt.)

    Robin,

    May I disagree. Gilad gets it. He is different from most Jews who attack Zionist Israel. Most Jews that attack Israel, attack the actions of Zionism – Gilad attacks the very foundation of Zionism – he attacks cultural Jewish tribalism.

    He says that Zionism is the logical offspring of functional foundational tribal Judaism. He finds Zionism to be evil. Gilad has renounced his religious and tribal Judaism.

    The attacks on him are horrendous – I doubt that he gives back in kind.

    Here is an article from his web site:

    The Wondering Jesse by Gilad Atzmon

    January 18, 2012 / Gilad Atzmon

    This week, Jesse Lieberfeld an11th-grade American Jewish teenager won the Dietrich College’s 2012 Martin Luther King, Jr. Writing Awards for composing a beautiful piece about his own moral awakening and journey away from Judaism.

    “I once belonged to a wonderful religion. I belonged to a religion that allows those of us who believe in it to feel that we are the greatest people in the world—and feel sorry for ourselves at the same time,” says young Jesse. However, it seems that it didn’t take too long before Jesse found out for himself that what he was part of was neither flattering or glorious.

    Jewish tribal cultural indoctrination is a full-on, comprehensive process. “Although I was fortunate enough to have parents who did not try to force me into any one set of beliefs, being Jewish was in no way possible to escape growing up”, says Jesse. “It was constantly reinforced at every holiday, every service, and every encounter with the rest of my relatives.”

    Inherent to the culture and its maintenance is self-love. “I was forever reminded how intelligent my family was, how important it was to remember where we had come from, and to be proud of all the suffering our people had overcome in order to finally achieve their dream in the perfect society of Israel.”

    More:

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/the-wondering-jesse-by-gilad-atzmon.html

    Art

    • Replies: @RobinG
  290. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    [Gilad "Atzmo-" = Gilad by "himself" ] is mad. Robin, I shall tell you very simply where I stand these days. I am against organised Jewish groups like AIPAC, yet I cannot in good faith claim I support efforts which openly seed hatred of Jewish people. Many such organisations seem to pop up with regularity, with the intent to oppose Zionism, but their true spots show upon a light wash.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Art
  291. RobinG says:
    @Art

    Art, let me try to explain.

    Yes, Gilad gets it, but he doesn’t know what to do with it. He makes some insightful observations, and I’ve posted several of his writings here at UR. But if you watch any of his talks on youtube, you’ll see that when asked for solutions, he throws up his hands and says that he’s a philosopher, he identifies the situation, but it’s not his job to offer solution. Not only is he not an activist, but he “hates activists and activism.” All this with a shrug of the shoulders.

    So, he derides ‘solidarity’ groups like Jewish Voice for Peace and all pro-Palestinian activists in general as ineffectual dupes. He has along list of Jewish gatekeepers (Max Blumenthal for example) and he mercilessly criticizes BDS, but he has nothing constructive to offer. He may have renounced Judaism, but he’s still “the Jew’s Jew” (as he immodestly declares, the product of Rabbinical selective breeding). This is why I say he’s of no use in the real world.

    Yes, there are ugly attacks on Gilad, but not only by defenders of Zionism. Many simply believe he is counterproductive.

    Here at UR, this bubble of rarified air, you’ll find sparring partners to debate contentious subjects. But thanks to Gary “AND WHAT IS ALEPPO” Johnson, we have a glimpse of the political range of the American general public. If you take Gilad’s analyses into the real public (i.e. not UR) you’ll be written off as anti-Semitic, shunned, ignored. You may complain that they’ve been brainwashed by the Holocaust Religion, but that’s just the point. They are brainwashed, and they will ignore you.

    This may be the essential problem/question of strategy. How to address the public? Do you advocate shock therapy? I don’t see you winning many friends and converts with the Little Jew approach, unless you have untold silent observers. Until now, I’m more of the ‘meet them where they are’ philosophy. And IMO, if some disinterested party first or only encounters Max Blumenthal, that’s so much better than nothing.

    PS
    Your comment at #290 is, sadly, all too true. Yet isn’t there an Israeli elite that knows they are using fear for control of their own people? Like the famous story of air raid sirens going off and the (journalist?) being told, there’s nothing to worry about, and realizing it was just to frighten the Israeli populace.

    If those women are the marionettes, there’s still someone pulling the strings. Or has the fear virus become self-replicating?

    • Replies: @Art
  292. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    LOL. “Mad” is both relative and subjective. I prefer idiot. He tries to parse Jews into political, religious, etc., applauds Judaism while he decries Jewishness. He is evasive, exhibiting the same slipperiness he condemns, and routinely cuts off the nose to spite the face. The average person is bewildered by this apparent tail-chasing.

    .

  293. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    [Gilad "Atzmo-" = Gilad by "himself" ] is mad.

    Mr Shama calling an opponent of Zionism “mad” is standard fare – hasbara 101 – his granny taught him that one, when he was 5.

    Really – how many times do we hear that we are crazy for opposing Jews?

    p.s. A Jew has to be a little “mad” to take on his tribesman – right?

    p.s. The brilliant Mr Shama needs to pic up his game a little – “mad” is boring.

    p.s. I guess is you are terrorized by your parents and culture when you are little – it is hard to break the rhetorical mold.

    p.s. It is so mean to traumatize children with fears that everyone wants to kill them.

    p.s. It effects their whole lives. They will never have the courage to believe what their eyes see. Their subconscious will always override their logical brains.

    p.s. Truly we must feel sorry for the likes of Little Jew Shama.

  294. Art says:
    @RobinG

    Your comment at #290 is, sadly, all too true. Yet isn’t there an Israeli elite that knows they are using fear for control of their own people? Like the famous story of air raid sirens going off and the (journalist?) being told, there’s nothing to worry about, and realizing it was just to frighten the Israeli populace.

    If those women are the marionettes, there’s still someone pulling the strings. Or has the fear virus become self-replicating?

    People don’t understand the power that Big Jew Zionism has over the world – they do not comprehend or get the scope of Zionist power to shut people up.

    Example. No political leader of any country on the planet will question Israel’s 200 nukes. There is good reason for that – if they said “Israel 200 nukes” their political and social and economic lives would be over. Think about that – think about the evil behind that power.

    Where does evil Zionism come from? Clearly it is a manifestation of Jew religious tribal culture – there is no other possibility.

    Part of that Big Jew power is derived from their willingness to manipulate their own children. They traumatize their children at an early age into supporting Zionism all their lives. They tell them that everyone hates them and wants to kill them. They trigger a lifelong deep subconscious fear of the rest of humanity.

    Thus we get someone like Sam Shama – a brilliant mature man who knows that Israel is doing wrong – yet when some Gentile says something negative – Shama reflexively says “they hate us”. He cannot help himself – he is a lifelong prisoner of the Big Jews.

  295. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Thus we get someone like Sam Shama – a brilliant mature man who knows that Israel is doing wrong – yet when some Gentile says something negative – Shama reflexively says “they hate us”. He cannot help himself – he is a lifelong prisoner of the Big Jews.

    I was at hardware store awhile ago, parked next to a guy who was struggling to get a door into the trunk of his beater Ford or some damn thing, while managing the older gent with him. I offered to help — put the thing in my pickup & followed him to his house. The old guy came with me — insurance, I guess, that I would not drive off w/ the door!

    The old man did not speak English. They were poor Russian Jews. We got to destination — a run-down duplex in a shabby but respectable part of town — unloaded the door & the old man. The young man was very grateful — gave me his card: “any time you want a massage, just come to me, I’ve got a table in my back room.”

    Sam Shama’s “brilliance” and urbanity depend on loyalty to the tribe. Jews like Shama don’t hobnob with folks like those poor Russian Jews driving a beater to their run-down apartment and trying to make a living by massaging people’s backs. Austrian Jews are not Russian Jews.

    Sam won’t step out of line because his identity is wrapped up in chooseness, the foundation of the zionist narrative, and to contradict Jewish exceptionalism is to place his identity in jeopardy.

    “Freedom’s just another word for nuthin’ left to lose,” and Sam has too much to lose.

    That’s an insight Gideon Levy offered the audience at the National Press Club in 2015: http://israellobbyus.org/transcripts/4.2Gideon_Levy2.htm

    “we have to face reality, and reality is that there is no chance for a change from within the Israeli society—no way. I’ll try to explain why. But if this is the case, the only hope is for an international intervention, and the only hope is from this place, from Washington, from the United States, from the EU, only from there. Because the Israeli society is by far today too brainwashed; life in Israel is by far too good.

    And Israel, let’s face it, is a society which lives in denial, totally disconnected with reality. Would it be a private person, I would recommend either medications or hospitalization, because people who lose connection with reality might be very dangerous either to themselves or to society. “

    Israelis and Jews like Unz forum’s own Sam, is the policeman Javert, come to arrest Monsieur Madeleine:

    The deformity of triumph overspread that narrow brow. All the demonstrations of horror which a satisfied face can afford were there. . . .

    Javert was in heaven at that moment. Without putting the thing clearly to himself, but with a confused intuition of the necessity of his presence and of his success, he, Javert, personified justice, light, and truth in their celestial function of crushing out evil. Behind him and around him, at an infinite distance, he had authority, reason, the case judged, the legal conscience, the public prosecution, all the stars; he was protecting order, he was causing the law to yield up its thunders, he was avenging society, he was lending a helping hand to the absolute, he was standing erect in the midst of a glory. There existed in his victory a remnant of defiance and of combat. Erect, haughty, brilliant, he flaunted abroad in open day the superhuman bestiality of a ferocious archangel. The terrible shadow of the action which he was accomplishing caused the vague flash of the social sword to be visible in his clenched fist; happy and indignant, he held his heel upon crime, vice, rebellion, perdition, hell; he was radiant, he exterminated, he smiled, and there was an incontestable grandeur in this monstrous Saint Michael.

    Javert, though frightful, had nothing ignoble about him.

    Probity, sincerity, candor, conviction, the sense of duty, are things which may become hideous when wrongly directed; but which, even when hideous, remain grand: their majesty, the majesty peculiar to the human conscience, clings to them in the midst of horror; they are virtues which have one vice,—error.

    The honest, pitiless joy of a fanatic in the full flood of his atrocity preserves a certain lugubriously venerable radiance. Without himself suspecting the fact, Javert in his formidable happiness was to be pitied, as is every ignorant man who triumphs. Nothing could be so poignant and so terrible as this face, wherein was displayed all that may be designated as the evil of the good.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Art
  296. Sam Shama says:
    @anonymous

    What’s all this? What have I done now to deserve this notoriety?

    Allright I’ll play, S2C/Robin/Art:

    Took a few seconds to recover from the first blush of ‘well, jolly good prose for a comments section’ to ‘It’s Hugo, and I am Javert!’

    So, how shall I compose my reply? In late 19th century stylish hand, Mockney or American’ish?

    This ‘Javert’ of undeserved infamy is a man deeply wronged, of jealous glory he seeks not, nor the contentments of parched legalism, recompense and pride in the refinements of polite Austrian society over the ancestral squalor of Russian Jewry. The worst that could be said of him was his unrequited yearning for a Holy Land in peace.

    Well I suppose I’d better switch to normal. I’m not the least bit tribal, not in any more meaningful a way than S2C is an Italian romanticist, Art a Christian pacifist or Robin…well Robin I suspect is the sincere-most in our sorry lot!

    I am truly befuddled as to why you should endow me with so much probity [when I am universally picked a scoundrel by my "friends" :-) ] which alas, I am then directed to recognise, is all in the benefit of an error! Which one? That I object to yet another round of meaningless, devious legalism over 1948? You must have noticed that my stand on 1967 is somewhat different on that score, do you not? I am simply choosing to apply a strong dose of realism to the awful mix we have on our hands in the ME.

    The drama thickens. I am now to be pitied for my exquisite confusion. Well I’ll say. Please explain, or I shall be forced to apply myself to something a bit stronger than Widow Jane this evening.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  297. Art says:
    @anonymous

    Comment # — Sam Shama.

    Shama: I am against organised Jewish groups like AIPAC, yet I cannot in good faith claim I support efforts which openly seed hatred of Jewish people. Many such organisations seem to pop up with regularity, with the intent to oppose Zionism, but their true spots show upon a light wash.

    Mr. Shama demonstrates his zombie Jewish nature – he is useless – he cannot see – he cannot think – he has no moral compass. To him – to oppose Jew Zionism – is to hate a Jew (ipso facto – “you can see their spots”). In his zombie mind it is not Zionist actions that are hated – it is primordial hate for Jews. He says that hate for Jews is a priory to their actions. Of course this is not rational – rational people see cause and effect – they see that one thing leads to another.

    Hmm – he learned this dishonesty when he was five – it was drummed into him by his parents and his Big Jew culture.

    The Big Jews traumatize their children into a lifelong servitude to Zionism. It is drummed into them before they have the intellectual capacity to question what they are being told. They are lost as rational people by the age of 10.

    When you tell children that people want to kill them – you are terrorizing them – PERIOD.

    Shame on the Jew culture!

  298. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    You may not realize it, Sam, but you are speaking from power, not realism. What you consider insurmountable (1948) is only temporary.

    “Impossible is not a fact, it’s an opinion.” Muhammad Ali

    What I regret about S2C is the tenacious bigotry. Why the derision of eastern Jews? Is this a corollary to Aryan attitude toward Slavs? Or an endorsing of alleged Zionist scheme to cull the herd? Yesterday, when Sophie Shevardnadze interviewed Nassim Taleb he made the point that 14 of the top 20 innovators in the world today are Russians. (But no longer in Russia. He was talking about brain drain.) According to Taleb, Russians have a far greater percentage of innovators (job and money creators) than any other nationality – and what do you bet a good percentage of them are eastern Jews? Personally, I know many wonderful and brilliant Jews of bloodlands origin. Anyway, I don’t subscribe to that prejudice.

    Sam, your yearning for peace is meaningless if it is a Pax Judaica, a pacification by suppression or expulsion, but I don’t think you mean it that way. Too bad you’re so resigned to old mistakes and injustices.

    I’d like to qualify (for Art) my remark about Max B. It refers to encountering his book or his better writings. If one only saw his attacks on Atzmon, it would not be net positive. Wouldn’t you know, Gilad just came out with a great piece. (Must have heard us talking.)

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/2016/9/12/is-bibi-a-lizard

    “Jews see racism everywhere, simply because they attribute their own racism to others. So, Netanyahu, in accusing others of ethnic cleansing, is simply projecting his own symptoms onto the Palestinians.” etc.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  299. @RobinG

    What I regret about S2C is the tenacious bigotry. Why the derision of eastern Jews? Is this a corollary to Aryan attitude toward Slavs? Or an endorsing of alleged Zionist scheme to cull the herd?

    I grew up in a predominantly Polish-Slavic neighborhood & environment (are Hungarians Slavs? I don’t really know — when they began to arrive on my block in the mid-’50s we called them DPs, which I later found out means “Displaced Persons”); I do know that my elementary school teachers were Polish nuns, that my schoolmates were predominantly Polish — I have never had an Italian schoolmate or even an Italian close friend; my friends mirrored my schoolmate — Polish, Slavic, and Irish (the diocese was run by Irish bishop and clergy and the Catholic high schools I attended were run by Irishmen/women. One of my closest friends was of Polish origin, who went on to complete a bachelor’s at MIT followed by U Chicago law degree. I don’t think I knew any actual Jewish people though I remember thinking from time to time that I wished I could be part of what my child’s mind imagined to be a large and close Jewish family. I did not have that kind of a family experience — the rowdy Italian family of Alan Alda’s videographed reminiscence did not exist in my Polish-DP-Irish neighborhood.

    I suppose what I resent most about Sam is that he has a Granny who tells him about her life. I never did. My body does not have the memory of my granny holding me on her lap or hugging me. I don’t have any idea what my grandparents’ lives were like — hell, I don’t have much of an idea of what my parents lives were like — not their childhoods, or their growing up, nor their experiences in Depression, in War. My Dad never talked about it, so I only lately imagine what it must have been like for him to have come back from the war, wounded, permanently disabled, and orphaned — his father died while Dad was in a military hospital somewhere in N Africa. I have Dad’s duffel bag; he listed his ports-of-call; I trace them to try to imagine what it must have been like for a 19-year old kid to have left his home for the North African campaign that Rick Atkinson explains was “wisely chosen by FDR” as a training ground, to teach young American conscripts to “hate Germans enough to kill them.” Years and years of Catholic indoctrination have taught me that I’m not supposed to hate, but it’s tempting to hate Rick Atkinson for proclaiming that teaching people like my father to “hate enough to kill” was “wise,” and that that whole epoch in American history is worthy of being composed as “America’s great epic.” I think it’s America’s great disgrace, and that Franklin Delano Roosevelt was one of the most evil people on the planet, who led the USA down a path that radically, treasonously diverged from what was envisioned — as an ideal, to be sure — by its founders.
    This morning Gideon Rose spent 30 minutes on C Span insisting that the US must remain on the path that Roosevelt created https://www.c-span.org/video/?414569-5/washington-journal-foreign-affairs-editor-gideon-rose A majority of callers opposed that notion.

    I also resent that I got such a piss-poor education — the Polish nuns were not trained to teach, they were trained as domestics: in those days, nuns functioned as housekeepers for the priests etc. Those nuns who were trained as educators had been killed in Poland, either by Germans or by Russians. Whichever, the educated class ended up dead. I can still recite my prayers in Polish and the Baltimore catechism from cover to cover, but those skills do not impress babes at the local pub, nor do they appear in most Help Wanted postings.

    But Louis Brandeis took pains to ensure that German Jews were removed from Germany because he knew — in 1933 when he issued the directive — that Germany was to be scourged. Even tho Russo-Polish Jews were already threatened by Communist purges that cost the lives of many millions, Brandeis directed that German Jews should migrate. A Mormon newsletter from the era covered the migration of European Jews under a series of articles titled, “The Jews are on the March — Again!” The migration of Jews, especially German Jews, in the 1930s was voluntary — at least from the pov of what Art would call the “big Jews.” German (and Austrian) Jews were the elites; the Jewish community had invested in their young and had taken pains to educate them — in institutions the German and Austrian people established. Sam is a beneficiary of that complex, multi-generational, multi-confessional (i.e. Jewish commitment plus European institutions) investment. That young non-Jewish Germans were displaced from their own institutions by Jews was one of the major points of friction between Germans and Jews from a time shortly after German unification, a date which coincides with the peak of the quadrupling of the Jewish population in Eastern Europe — and the rise of the Haskalah movement and of modern zionism. As I understand the migratory pattern, for nearly 70 years Germany was something like a way-station for Eastern European Jews, to the disadvantage of many, many native Germans (I may be wrong but I think I’ve got the general outline close to accurate).

    I’m sorry that my “tenacious bigotry” offends you, RobinG. I suppose that at my age I should be well past an identity crisis, but in fact I’m still trying to figure out where a person fits who was born into an Italian family, educated in Polish-Irish-Catholic institutions, married into Mennonite/WASP culture which endowed our own children with tremendous opportunity and success; has become impressed with the dignity of Iranian culture, and is learning just enough to be dangerous but terribly afraid that the same demon that possessed Franklin Roosevelt, seeks to destroy the rest of the Middle East and then Iran in just the way Germany was destroyed (and that my own Italian heritage was marginalized).

    Atzmon has produced some penetrating insights into Jewish attitudes. In the piece you linked he expands, a bit, on Freudian concepts of projection. He has not yet taken the leap (that to my mind is obvious, even unavoidable) that the evils that were ascribed to Germany, Hitler, and NSDAP were projections of the racialist, supremacist and lebensraum-ian ideology that defines zionism. Israeli-ist behavior today is compelling evidence that the holocaust narrative is false; it is a set of evils projected onto Nazis of what Jews carried out, or set in motion against Germans, Poles, Arabs, Palestinians, Libyans, Syrians; soon-to-be carried out against Iranians, and if the pattern is taken to its logical conclusion , will ultimately be visited upon the American people.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  300. @SolontoCroesus

    PS meant to address the references to “Aryan” and to “Slavs” in your statement, RobinG –

    1. I believe that Hitler and NSDAP used “Aryan” as a cultural marker. For years and years we filled out forms and were asked to identify as “Negro” or “Caucasian.” “Caucasian” is the same as Aryan — geographically and linguistically. Germans called themselves “Nordic” and “Aryans” because that is what they were/are. Semites are not Aryans; they are different. Semitic origins are in the land of Ur, not the Caucasus. I suspect that the concept of projection applies doubly to claims that Nazis were “racist” and “antisemitic.” What so many Jews want least is to be thought an Arab, a Semite:

    At the end of every Hebrew sentence that you utter
    There sits an Arab smoking his hookah,
    Even if it’s begun in Siberia
    Or in Hollywood, with Hava Nagilah.

    (-Gil Eyal in The Disenchantment of the Orient)

    Herzl’s zionist vision was for Jews to live like Western Europeans in the Levant, and to bring “Western Civilization” to the benighted indigenous people — among them, native Jews. Herzl did not decamp to Ur, nor did Ruppin establish Arab culture in Palestine, or build Tel Aviv to mimic an Arab city.

    2. From an admittedly not very close reading of Mein Kampf (it’s a long book, additionally burdened by the many notes by moderators who attempt to redefine Hitler’s thoughts), my impression is that Hitler’s grievance with “Slavs” was political, not ethnic: Slavs represented the Austro-Hungarian empire, which was thought oppressive by many of the peoples under its sway, including Hitler’s native Linz. A lot of people sought to get shed of Austro-Hungarian dominance.

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