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The Obstacle to Peace
Washington's Role as Israel's Enabler
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The persistence of the Israel-Palestine conflict together with its clash of civilizations subplot invites inquiry far beyond the simplistic explanation that it is about two peoples seeking to occupy the same land at the same time. It has spawned hundreds of books and articles, some well informed and others purely polemical. Scores of “experts,” most of whom are advocates for one side or the other, are part of a seemingly vast industry that seeks to understand what has happened in the past and tries to come to grips with what is currently taking place. Some pundits even look ahead, rejecting the view that the conflict is intractable and floating plans to bring about some kind of a solution that is acceptable to both sides as well as to the neighboring and sometimes not-so-neighboring governments that have inexorably been drawn in to the dispute.

Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that, deconstructing the prevailing narrative on the Middle East while also explaining in meticulous and fully documented detail why and how a succession of United States administrations has actually become the greatest impediment to a just settlement that would benefit both Palestinians and Israelis. Washington, which pretends to be part of a possible solution, is actually the problem.

Hammond is an award winning investigative journalist and the editor of Foreign Policy Journal. Along the way to his central thesis his book provides an exhaustive history of the Israel-Palestine relationship which, to be sure, will interest many readers. But it is his insight into how Washington’s blatant hypocrisy has been the most significant factor making peace between the two parties impossible that gets to the real heart of the matter.

The United States has for many years appeared to promote a peaceful and mutually beneficial “two state solution” to the conflict between Jews and Arabs. That in theory means that there should be two independent nations existing side by side, one made up largely of Palestinian Arabs and the other mostly consisting of Israeli Jews. That would seem to be a reasonable outcome and one that many fair minded individuals would comfortably endorse. Much of the world has, in fact, gone along with that formula, allowing the United States to take the lead in what have been remarkably unproductive peace talks.

Failure at the negotiating table has been largely due to the fact that there is a flaw in the arrangement, which is that Washington has gone along with and repeatedly echoes the Israeli insistence that both confidence building and final arrangements should be the product of bilateral negotiations between the two sides.

Tying all attempts at conflict resolution to obligatory bilateral negotiations mean that Israel has de facto been able to postpone any real movement towards a peace agreement and basically to reject the entire two state concept. Richard Falk describes the process as a “holding operation” that is not intended to produce results while the inexorable Israeli settling of the West Bank continues under the radar. That it works that way is because one side, the Israelis, representing a unified and powerful state that actually occupies much of the other side’s territory, is able to call the shots, exercising its will relatively freely, accepting or refusing to accommodate even reasonable proposals by the Palestinian negotiators sitting across the table.

Even so, and in spite of the asymmetry in power, as it is in Israel’s own long term interest to come to some kind of arrangement with the Palestinians, the two sides might well have taken reasonable steps to narrow the differences between themselves and move towards an agreement. That they did not come to an understanding was due to the other flaw in the arrangement, which was that Washington has never served as an even-handed broker between Palestinian and Israeli. It has always favored the latter, quite understandably, reflective of the powerful Jewish interests in the United States versus the almost non-existent and essentially voiceless Arab-American lobby. The bond between Washington and Tel Aviv has frequently been described as a “special relationship” even though it does not commit Israel in any way to take any action favored by Washington. Quite the contrary in reality, but the belief on the part of many Establishment Americans that there is something “special” persists, frequently embellished with other fulsome expressions like “greatest ally” and “best friend.”

Washington knows very well but will never acknowledge that phony peace talks provide cover for Israeli expansion on the ground that will make a Palestinian state impossible to achieve. Indeed, Israel could not possibly continue its settlement policy, which is opposed by nearly all the world, without American tacit support. And the White House’s role as Israel’s patron and de facto collaborator has materially affected the ongoing discussion on what to do in a number of other ways. It has, for example, effectively empowered the political hard right wing in Israel by permitting Tel Aviv to take popular but extreme positions knowing that there will be no consequences.

Washington has also framed the actual peace talks, when they occur, in such a way as to always turn back to the “negotiations between the two sides” formula which puts the control back in Israel’s hands. Regarding those negotiations, it never pressures Israel in any way and always claims to “have Israel’s back.” Even mild rebukes about new settlement building are always balanced and made irrelevant by simultaneously accusing the Palestinians of “creating obstacles” and “incitement.”

Beyond its own internal discipline on the issue, the United States will not allow anyone else to pressure Israel either. It has blocked attempts by the Palestinians to upgrade their status in the United Nations or to obtain access to the International Criminal Court. Congress and the White House have both together and individually taken steps to sanction perfectly legal and non-violent Palestinian attempts to put economic pressure on Israel through the Boycott, Divest and Sanction (BDS) movement.

Hammond sees a Washington that has been so thoroughly subverted by Israeli interests that it has no wiggle room to behave independently on any issue viewed as important to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. By using its United Nations veto the State Department has consistently provided Israel with protective political cover whenever it behaves badly, insuring that there will no consequences whatsoever if the Netanyahu government continues to steal Arab land and expand its own authority on the West Bank. Protecting Israel is the norm even when its actions damage actual American interests. When General David Petraeus spoke candidly in 2010, saying that Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians was endangering American soldiers operating in the Middle East, he was quickly forced to recant.

Hammond also examines in some detail the role of the U.S. punditry and media in sustaining the imbalance in the public perception about Israel vs. Palestine. Israel’s actual language and its propagandistic viewpoint in describing the conflict are adopted not only by the federal government but also by mainstream journalists and think tank “experts.” As Hammond puts it, “they choose not to see” that the entire two-state formula is a sham deliberately intended to serve as a delaying tactic. As part of the process Arabs are regularly diminished as human beings, invariably being described in negative terms, suggesting that they have to somehow politically mature if they ever want to achieve statehood. Those Palestinians who are brave enough to attack Israeli soldiers are always described as “terrorists,” which resonates with a western audience that both associates terror with Muslims and is predisposed to be fearful of attacks at home sourced to the instability in the Middle East.

In the U.S. media the illegal Israeli occupation of much of the West Bank and nearly all of East Jerusalem is rarely mentioned and the right of an occupied people to resist under international law is never discussed. And when peace talks inevitably break down it is always because Israel “has no one to negotiate with” or “because the Palestinians have turned down a generous offer” or have been “rejectionist” not because Israel has a vested interested in jawing interminably while it continues to build settlements that create facts on the ground that will eventually be used to justify a takeover of nearly all the West Bank.

Hammond demonstrates how the Israeli-U.S.-media nexus works in practice in relationship to the devastating 2008-9 Operation Cast Lead attack on Gaza. Israel provoked the crisis, announced that diplomatic options had broken down, applied more pressure until there was a response, and then exercised an overwhelming military option, killing 1400 Gazans including possibly as many as 400 children. The U.S. government supported the Israeli action as “going after terrorists” and “legitimate defense” while the mainstream media followed suit. Bear in mind that Gaza had no army of any kind and its vulnerable civilians had virtually no means to resist the Israeli attack, which included a number of documented war crimes.

Jeremy Hammond’s website includes additional reviews and commentary on Obstacles to Peace. He has written his book in an attempt to inform the American public about what is really going on in the Middle East. He seeks to empower his fellow citizens to emphatically reject the actions of the government, the mainstream media and the host of think tank experts who have pretty much had things their own way for fifty years. May he find success. To my mind his book is essential reading on Israel-Palestine, joining the classic John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy, Steven Sniegoski’s The Transparent Cabal and Alison Weir’s Against Our Better Judgement. The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Israel Lobby, Israel/Palestine 
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  1. anon says: • Disclaimer

    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    Read More
    • Replies: @TJM
    WHAT, "one conflict involves Jews", in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute...and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with "Black Lives Matter". Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!
    , @annamaria
    Let's stay on point. It is not just a state of Israel –– it is zionism X neocons = Ziocons –– the parasitoids on the living hapless body of the US, which are the topic of this article.
    After killing thousands of hundreds innocent civilians in the Middle East and destroying whatever economic stability the US had before the US-initiated wars and regime changes in the Middle East, the US have been actively supporting the alleged 9/11 culprits, Al Qaeda, to help Israelis to get the Golan Heights and to destroy another formerly functioning M.E. state. See Yinon Plan: http://www.voltairenet.org/article186019.html

    "US Senator: "We Have Never Done Anything More Loathsome or Despicable Than What We're Doing in Syria."
    "Senator Richard Black and Janice Kortkamp discuss the shameful situation in Syria, where the US government is actively arming and funding Al Nusra (Al Qaeda) and "conduits" ("moderates"), blending them together, and then using this model to exterminate the Syrian population."
    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/07/us-senator-we-have-never-done-anything.html

    No wonder that the despicable war criminal Wolfowitz and the hateful Kagans support Mrs. Clinton for president; she is always ready for initiating another slaughter in the Middle East (and Ukraine) on cue from her handlers.
    , @Oscar Peterson

    "dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews."
     
    But the "one that involves Jews" is much the bigger strategic problem for the US. That's the difference.

    The "one that involves Jews" is the one that is, over time, inexorably alienating the US from the Arabs and those who are sympathetic to the dispossession of the Palestinians, especially other Muslim states such as Iran and Turkey, the two natural regional leaders.

    The "one that involves Jews" is the one that is creating strategic space for Russia and, in the long term much more challengingly, for China.

    You make the standard, sophistic pro-Israel argument, an deliberately opaque conflation of moral and strategic "reasoning" that has no goal other than to promote the welfare of Israel as you understand it.

    You represent the destructive parasitism that Phil Giraldi makes reference to in his last paragraph.
    , @SolontoCroesus

    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.
     
    On Sept 12, 2002 Benjamin Netanyahu urged a US congressional committee to attack Iraq.
    Therefore, it's reasonable -- essential, really, to include the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq among the "wars that involve Jews" and deaths resulting from those wars.

    From Michael Eisenstadt's recent comments on C Span, it's also reasonable to conclude that the war in Syria "involves Jews," therefore the 250,000 to 400,000 deaths and the massive displacement and destabilization of Syrians can be attributed at least in part to "Jewish involvement."

    Further, Eisenstadt's core message -- his Luntzian talking points -- urged that the USA "remain involved, must remain involved, has to remain involved" in the debacles in the Middle East for years, decades, perhaps several generations to come, to "support our allies," and as every American knows from the first slap he experiences across his behind, Israel is "America's ally," with whom the USA has a "special relationship," nunc et in aeternum, co-terminus with Jewish involvement in wars and consequent deaths.

    Own it.
    , @William
    Many countries, especially poor, third world countries, commit barbarities. Savagery is not isolated to the Middle East. But there is a significant difference between the Sudan or Papua New Guinea and Israel. Israel is composed of Jews from around the world, most from the highly civilized and educated countries of Europe or from the U.S. or from Russia and Eastern Europe generally. Many Jewish scientists educated in major universities world wide now teach in world class universities in Israel.This is an advantage of enormous proportions.
    Another major difference is that the U.S. has made Israel a major military power and provides significant financial support. Many third world countries still struggle to attain a modicum of modern civilization, but Israel, highly educated and politically supported by the U.S. is a bitter, brutal, un-civilized barbaric occupier of lands conquered with the most modern weapons of war, all supplied by the U.S. Most Americans don't know it, but I, along with most of the world, see Israel as a pernicious, war-like, aggressive little nation preening itself on power supplied by an ignorant America. Israel is the state that doesn't fit in anywhere. Only Israel has to wall itself off against the rest of the world, relying on airlines for entrance and egress. Nothing lasts forever, and the bloody history of Israel demonstrates this clearly. Exile and finally destruction by Rome should remind us that history repeats itself. Sometimes a country may fatten on stolen lands or spoils of conquest, but eventually things change. And I am afraid that in the coming years, Israel very harsh reprisals willforce Israel to repent of its barbarism.
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  2. The absurdity of the notion that sacrificing Israel or the Alter of Muslim rage is beyond credulity. What ever imperfection and or even venality arising out of the capture of US policy by the neoco, NWO elites, sacrificing Israel will no more appease these mad dogs than the Munich accords appeased Hitler.

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    • Replies: @Wally
    Nonsensical propaganda created to sustain supremacist Jews / Zionism.

    Your position rests upon the '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers', a profoundly false & laughable premise.

    There is Hitler with the mythological '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' and there is Hitler without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.


    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since 1869:

    http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/WhiteWolf722/TheSixMillionMyth.jpg

    , @Anonymous
    I probably agree with you on the matter at hand.

    Never the less, you namecall "mad dogs" all Muslims. If this were said of all Jews, what would your reaction be?
    I am against namecalling "mad dogs" all groups of humans on earth.
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  3. RobinG says:

    This I like:

    “the Zionists had no legal authority for their unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948.

    The UN’s acceptance of Israel’s territorial conquest as a fait accompli and admission of Israel as a member in the wake of the war did not confer ex post facto legal authority for that declaration or justify the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population.

    There’s an entire section in the book, by the way, about Israel’s UN membership, and how the UN violated the UN Charter and prejudiced the rights of the Palestinians”

    Jeremy Hammond

    The “state of Israel” is an illegal construct, and the sooner it’s deconstructed (peacefully dismantled), the better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TJM
    "Mad dogs", do you mean the Israeli's?

    Where do you think you are that you can speak such lies and get away with it. Israel and its rabid supporters IS the reason their is conflict in the Middle East.

    Zionist Jews work tirelessly to create conflict in the Middle East. Everyone knows Iran has no nukes, but that does not stop the mad dog Netanyahu from pushing for war with Iran. Just like he did with Iraq. And within and without of the US governemnt, Zionist Jew forces work to create conflict with Russia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general, and anyone who stands in their way of global financial domination.

    Just look at he Bretix vote, the Zionist were trying to work their magic to scare the Brits into staying in their NWO, but the Brits said NO. Interesting FACT, the EU gives preferential trade deal with ISRAEL, even though it is against their charter, and give no such sweetheart deals to any other member.

    Hollywood, which is undeniably Zionist Jew, promotes hate of both Christians, Muslims, and Russians, while promoting sex, violence and greed to an unassuming public.

    Zionism is the greatest force for evil on the planet, and everything form Wikileaks to Google can back that statement up!
    , @TJM
    There is no such thing as peaceful anything when you are dealing with Israeli's. That is the great mistake of the West, they and their institutions are infested with Zionists, and they wonder why everything is going so poorly. But when you look at those pulling the strings, like a George Soros, or Bill Krystal, and those writing the legislation for the puppet politicians, you see the face of the Zionist.

    The man who pushed for the war ON Iraq, the men who wrote the sanctions on Iran, the persons who pushed for the conflict in Ukraine, the man who wrote the "Patriot Act", or the men who work to justify the changes in American understanding of the Constitution and our Freedoms, the men who work to open our borders, the men who wrote the immigration "reform act", the men who worked to undermine Glass- Steagler...and so much more. America is profoundly influenced by Zionist Jews, that in itself is concerning, but its the fact that we are NOT allowed to discuss this influence, even deny its existence is the most destructive.
    , @Sam Shama
    As creation of states go, importantly during the period over which colonial powers were drawing and re-drawing national boundaries, Israel's was as exemplary an application of legal process as one might hope to feature. For example, the legal force material to the creation of separate states in the Indian subcontinent, was, in the final analysis, drawn of the "legal framework" and subsequent bequeathal of the body of relevant laws from HMG. And, not to put too fine a point on it, the United Nations had no influence in the matter whatsoever, other than in the capacity of an observer in population movements during the partition.

    In Israel's case, the U.N. voted, [how the votes were cajoled is fodder for speculation and intrigue for fertile minds], yet its authority stands. There is little to benefit from rehashing the various wars: civil, international and aggressive, fought by the various populations on the expiry of the Mandate and thereafter.

    Dismantlement of the state therefore, is neither legal nor practical, nor possible without grievous consequences. Time and grey matter better spent formulating avenues which circumvent Bibi's grip; on the Israeli population, and via their rulers, on the KSA and the Gulf. This is the only way I see forward to the 1SS with full rights for Arab citizens and no right of return, which is a non-starter for not just Israel but for the BDS'ers as well.

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  4. What’s uniquely problematic about the “special relationship” is its immense depth, its vast reach and its intense gravitational pull. This is no small matter.

    The Israeli lobby may be centered in Washington, but it’s tentacles stretch worldwide. Moreover, Jews are–pound-for-pound–the world’s most educated, wealthy, cohesive, savvy and influential sect. This makes The Lobby uniquely powerful. And ‘unique’ is, in this case, no exaggeration.

    Even the ancient Romans complained about their haughty arrogance.

    And for millions of Jews throughout the world, Jewish security is inseparable from Israel’s. And Israel is on a world-class winning streak.

    Whereas other powerful and well-funded lobbies such as the NRA and the AARP are largely transparent and strictly domestic, the ‘Israeli lobby’ has no national boundaries. It also binds together individual identity with a group security in a fashion that is unparalleled.

    Toss in a race-oriented religion, supremely-high intelligence, historic grievance, economic power and stratospheric levels of ethnocentrism, and what we’ve got on our hands is a hornet’s nest of entitlement, resentment and hubris. These are God’s Chosen People.

    You may not believe it, but they do.

    And from the ashes of The Holocaust rose the downtrodden and the indestructible Jewish people. Innocent and suffering. Always innocent.

    That’s the modern outline anyway. And it packs a punch.

    By contrast, Americans who identify as White are routinely depicted as ‘racists’ and scoundrels. Only Hollywood could manufacture and sustain such a narrative.

    If the Jews aren’t the world’s most glorious and cohesive tribe, then who is?

    Similarly, their cultural and political footprint is humongous.

    World Jewry (including Israel) constitutes the world’s foremost superpower. The craven conduct of America’s entire governing class proves this.

    The overriding influence of Zionism in the West goes a long way towards explaining why there is not one prominent public figure who will critically examine Jewish power at length or explore Jewish wealth and privilege openly. It doesn’t happen. It can’t.

    Plus, there’s the opaque but vaguely recognizable network of shadowy and covert pro-Zionist organizations which never rest and which span the globe. Israeli surveillance, sabotage and intelligence-gathering is both revered and reviled. Jewish agency can be ruthless.

    America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.

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    • Disagree: SolontoCroesus
    • Replies: @Oscar Peterson
    "America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change."

    The only thing that will change it, sadly, is a crisis of the American system. If the Chinese are successful in building a parallel global financial structure that ends US financial hegemony, it will unleash a catastrophic economic situation in which the US can no longer live beyond its means via the imperial tribute it exacts through dollar and treasury bill dominance. In the chaos that follow, the position of the Jews will become extremely perilous.

    Only that eventuality will create conditions--that is, conditions of intense suffering and instability in the US--that would allow for the termination of Jewish power as it now exists--hence, in large part, the panicky, aggressive anti-Chinese campaign that has been launched since the 2008 financial crisis.
    , @TJM
    Great post, one question though, as for their winning streak, would you not consider the Syrian conflict a loss for the "tribe"?

    As well, Kiev seems not to be working out as they planned or Turkey.

    Everyplace where Zionist Jews have spread their influence the nations have declined, and no better example of this is America.

    They control the media, entertainment, Hollywood, Wall Street, the Fed, Washington...and they are destroying the rest of the nation through the use of mas immigration.

    They have a desire for conflict, and are pushing idiot America to engage in a conflict with Russia and China. Things are changing with the internet, the word is getting out, even though they try and control that too. the question is, is it too late?
    , @Jacques Sheete

    America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding.
     
    If the goyim would wake up and get a clue about how unyielding it is and what the attitudes towards them are, they'd probably perish from shock. I'd say it's relentless to the point of psychotic obsession. It certainly is a phenomenon to behold.

    Sometimes I think the only hope for us untermenschen is their constant hatred for one another, but then I wake up.

    The inimitable and very worthwhile Uri Avnery does a fine job of describing the loathing in this short article.:

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1469209537

    , @SolontoCroesus
    DISAGREE on this part of your otherwise important comment: imo you handicap yourself and other activists by overemphasizing so-called Jewish intellectual superiority.

    At least recognize that such a claim is an overgeneralization, and that it gives the group that Jeff Gates refers to as a "criminal gang" more leverage over their opposition than they are entitled to, or that is beneficial to the necessary project of undoing their criminal dominance over US culture (among other societies, as you noted).

    Just now I can't stop thinking about the conversation between De Gaulle & RobinG: http://www.unz.com/article/the-obstacle-to-peace/#comment-1556829

    One inadequately explored part of Jewish history and impact on the world is the historical contribution to animus in Europe. Some Jews in Poland – Lithuania made life worse for fellow Jews because they defrauded and abused Poles and Litwaks, and Russians, and Ukranians. All Jews suffer from reactions to that, and wonder why they suffer if their family did nothing bad.
     
    Vladimir Jabotinsky expressed similar sentiments: he was appalled at the conditions of his "brethren" in states east of his native Odessa. (Jabotinsky was far more fond of the Romans and of Mussolini.)

    Arthur Ruppin, the German Jew who "produced Hebrew culture in Palestine" made a similar appraisal: Eastern European Jews were of less desirable "human material" for creating the "new Jew" that would colonize Berlin-on-the - Meditarranean in Palestine.

    Polish Jews are qualitatively different from Jews who remained in the Middle East - South Asia; some studies say the latter group measures a lower average IQ; they're also less deceptive and cunning.

    One popular historian of Jewish life since the 18th century observed that Polish society had not developed the social, political, and economic structures that were a necessary condition to democratization and industrialization, hence Poland remained backward as the British and Germans advanced and leap-frogged each other in industrial and cultural development. That is why so many Polish Jews flocked to Germany: the Poland where the majority of Jews in Europe dwelt was a cultural and economic backwater. Jews had been there since about 1200 AD. If Jews were so intellectually gifted, why didn't they bring their talents to bear on Polish society?

    It's worth noting that a majority of Israel's founders and present leaders are from Poland-Lithuania-Russia-Hungary, and that most of the Jewish neocons in the USA are as well. If they (or their parents) were educated in Europe, chances are they went to German or Austrian universities, or Russian universities, which were conducted on German or French or Italian models.

    Ashkenazi (meaning strictly German) Jews had a far higher survival rate than either Polish - Russian - Lithuanian or Hungarian Jews; that's not an accident: German Jews were wealthier, more likely to be educated, and more desirable as migrants to Palestine or to USA. East European Jews were, apparently, considered expendable by Jewish leaders, since they did not take the same pains to remove Polish and Russian Jews from fields that were far more deadly, far earlier, as they did for German Jews beginning in Feb. 1933. Jews emerged from a shepherding tradition: they culled the herd; the smartest and wealthiest survived.

    To the extent that "Jews are smarter," the above are some of the reasons why.

    To arrive at a fair comparison of relative intellectual achievement, a similar back-of-the-envelope assessment of other European ethnics, and Americans, in the context of the separate challenges and opportunities they experienced in the WWI, inter-war, and WWII and beyond eras is essential, unless one subscribes to a racialist notion of intelligence, which, imho, tells less than half of the story.
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  5. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    “It’s All for Israel”

    “Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel’s targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria. Iraq is stronger than Syria. In the short run it is Iraqi power which constitutes the greatest threat to Israel. An Iraqi-Iranian war will tear Iraq apart and cause its downfall at home even before it is able to organize a struggle on a wide front against us. Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation will assist us in the short run and will shorten the way to the more important aim of breaking up Iraq into denominations as in Syria and in Lebanon. In Iraq, a division into provinces along ethnic/religious lines as in Syria during Ottoman times is possible. So, three (or more) states will exist around the three major cities: Basra, Baghdad and Mosul, and Shi’ite areas in the south will separate from the Sunni and Kurdish north. It is possible that the present Iranian-Iraqi confrontation will deepen this polarization.” (A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties, Oded Yinon, monabaker.com)

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/20/its-all-for-israel/

    Shouldn’t Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed for the glory of Eretz Israel?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Shouldn’t Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed..."

    Americans are not conscripted. If a knothead is stupid enough to go in the military, they will always get what they always get. Wars will not stop until the people simply refuse to participate.
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  6. Rehmat says:

    Jeremy Hammond doesn’t mention any thing new. Anyone who has studied the Zionist occupation of once a Muslim-majority Palestine from some objective source knows that United States along with USSR and Britain played part of midwives for the creation, arming, and supporting to this day the “shitty little Zionist entity”.

    In August 2009, I pulled Jeremy Hammond’s dirty pants by criticizing his interview with Pakistan’s ISI chief Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul. In order to hide his ‘Crypto Zionist’ credentials, Jeremy Hammond, wrote a lengthy article, entitled, “Rehmat’s Delusional World”.

    Iran’s Islamists are the only ones who have shown the guts to help Palestinians financially and morally – risking the wrath of world powers controlled by the Zionist Judeo-Christianity.

    The United States and Britain have long turned into Israel’s colonies. They along with Russia have lost their will to challenge the Zionist regime to even postpone building new illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem captured by the Jewish army in June 1967. In 2010, David Makovsky, of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a close associate of Dennis Ross, Obama’s chief adviser on the Middle East, disclosed that Obama wrote a letter to Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze the settlements for two months in return for a series of extraordinarily generous offers to Israel, many of them at the expense of the Palestinians. The offer was rejected by Netanyahu.

    Last year, Obama promised to increase US $3 billions annual military aid to $4.5 billions if the dude keep his mouth shut over the so-called P5+1 and Iran nuclear agreement. Ironically, Netanyahu got the increase without shutting his big mouth.

    US-born American anti-war activist, Dr. Dahlia Wasfi MD, in a 2008 speech (watch below) claims that the United states is totally occupied by Israel through Jewish lobby groups and Jewish oligarchs who buy US politicians as we saw during the recent AIPAC conference.

    Dr. Wasfi explains how the current bloodshed in the Middle East was started by the US, Israel, UK, and their regional clients to weaken the Muslim countries surrounding the Zionist entity for the benefit of Israel.

    Wasfi was born to an American Jewish mother and a Muslim Iraqi father in 1971. She is married to Ross Caputi, a US Marine, who fought in Iraq……

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/03/27/dahlia-wasfi-us-is-under-israeli-occupation/

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    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond

    Jeremy Hammond doesn’t mention any thing new.
     
    How would you know? You'd have to actually read the book.
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  7. TJM says:
    @anon
    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    WHAT, “one conflict involves Jews”, in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute…and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with “Black Lives Matter”. Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!

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    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @MMM
    "EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS!"

    That is very true, and you will never read that in the Zionist owned and controlled propaganda aka Mainstream Media, and phony alternative media.

    'The Obstacle to Peace' featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for "Israel" and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    The world is waking up and finding out the names of what it is sick to death of -- what has made it sick. And they are everywhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpybzN0cLo

    , @Wally
    The talented Mel Gibson nailed it.

    And actions of Jews prove it.

    see:
    Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course
    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189
    and:
    The Zionist attempt to control language.
    The Israel Project’s 2009 GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY
    https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf
    and:
    The commander behind the pro-Israel student troops on U.S. college campuses
    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.709014
    and:
    Israel tech site paying “interns” to covertly plant stories in social media
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-tech-site-paying-interns-covertly-plant-stories-social-media
    and:
    Israeli students to get $2,000 to spread state propaganda on Facebook
    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook

    , @Wizard of Oz
    "AMERICA HAD NO ENEMIES..." So the creation of Israell triggered the blockade of Berlin and need for the air lift???
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  8. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Greg Bacon
    "It's All for Israel"

    “Iraq, rich in oil on the one hand and internally torn on the other, is guaranteed as a candidate for Israel’s targets. Its dissolution is even more important for us than that of Syria. Iraq is stronger than Syria. In the short run it is Iraqi power which constitutes the greatest threat to Israel. An Iraqi-Iranian war will tear Iraq apart and cause its downfall at home even before it is able to organize a struggle on a wide front against us. Every kind of inter-Arab confrontation will assist us in the short run and will shorten the way to the more important aim of breaking up Iraq into denominations as in Syria and in Lebanon. In Iraq, a division into provinces along ethnic/religious lines as in Syria during Ottoman times is possible. So, three (or more) states will exist around the three major cities: Basra, Baghdad and Mosul, and Shi’ite areas in the south will separate from the Sunni and Kurdish north. It is possible that the present Iranian-Iraqi confrontation will deepen this polarization.” (A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties, Oded Yinon, monabaker.com)

    http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/06/20/its-all-for-israel/

    Shouldn't Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed for the glory of Eretz Israel?

    “Shouldn’t Americans be proud that their sons and daughters are being sacrificed…”

    Americans are not conscripted. If a knothead is stupid enough to go in the military, they will always get what they always get. Wars will not stop until the people simply refuse to participate.

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  9. annamaria says:
    @anon
    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    Let’s stay on point. It is not just a state of Israel –– it is zionism X neocons = Ziocons –– the parasitoids on the living hapless body of the US, which are the topic of this article.
    After killing thousands of hundreds innocent civilians in the Middle East and destroying whatever economic stability the US had before the US-initiated wars and regime changes in the Middle East, the US have been actively supporting the alleged 9/11 culprits, Al Qaeda, to help Israelis to get the Golan Heights and to destroy another formerly functioning M.E. state. See Yinon Plan: http://www.voltairenet.org/article186019.html

    “US Senator: “We Have Never Done Anything More Loathsome or Despicable Than What We’re Doing in Syria.”
    “Senator Richard Black and Janice Kortkamp discuss the shameful situation in Syria, where the US government is actively arming and funding Al Nusra (Al Qaeda) and “conduits” (“moderates”), blending them together, and then using this model to exterminate the Syrian population.”

    http://www.fort-russ.com/2016/07/us-senator-we-have-never-done-anything.html

    No wonder that the despicable war criminal Wolfowitz and the hateful Kagans support Mrs. Clinton for president; she is always ready for initiating another slaughter in the Middle East (and Ukraine) on cue from her handlers.

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  10. TJM says:
    @RobinG
    This I like:

    "the Zionists had no legal authority for their unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948.

    The UN's acceptance of Israel's territorial conquest as a fait accompli and admission of Israel as a member in the wake of the war did not confer ex post facto legal authority for that declaration or justify the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population.

    There's an entire section in the book, by the way, about Israel's UN membership, and how the UN violated the UN Charter and prejudiced the rights of the Palestinians"

    Jeremy Hammond
     
    The "state of Israel" is an illegal construct, and the sooner it's deconstructed (peacefully dismantled), the better.

    “Mad dogs”, do you mean the Israeli’s?

    Where do you think you are that you can speak such lies and get away with it. Israel and its rabid supporters IS the reason their is conflict in the Middle East.

    Zionist Jews work tirelessly to create conflict in the Middle East. Everyone knows Iran has no nukes, but that does not stop the mad dog Netanyahu from pushing for war with Iran. Just like he did with Iraq. And within and without of the US governemnt, Zionist Jew forces work to create conflict with Russia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general, and anyone who stands in their way of global financial domination.

    Just look at he Bretix vote, the Zionist were trying to work their magic to scare the Brits into staying in their NWO, but the Brits said NO. Interesting FACT, the EU gives preferential trade deal with ISRAEL, even though it is against their charter, and give no such sweetheart deals to any other member.

    Hollywood, which is undeniably Zionist Jew, promotes hate of both Christians, Muslims, and Russians, while promoting sex, violence and greed to an unassuming public.

    Zionism is the greatest force for evil on the planet, and everything form Wikileaks to Google can back that statement up!

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Dis you intend this reply for #2 Joe Martin? (Those are not my mad dogs.)
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  11. atheo says: • Website

    Jeremy has been a stalwart denier of the power of the Israel lobby. Vehement insistence on the fallacious “war for oil” dogma.

    Any critique of Israel coming from Hammond should be viewed as a limited hangout intended to obscure Jewish power within western establishments.

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    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
    Perhaps you should read the book before judging it. You could learn a great deal about why US policy toward the Israel-Palestine conflict is what it is if you did so.
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  12. @anon
    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    “dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.”

    But the “one that involves Jews” is much the bigger strategic problem for the US. That’s the difference.

    The “one that involves Jews” is the one that is, over time, inexorably alienating the US from the Arabs and those who are sympathetic to the dispossession of the Palestinians, especially other Muslim states such as Iran and Turkey, the two natural regional leaders.

    The “one that involves Jews” is the one that is creating strategic space for Russia and, in the long term much more challengingly, for China.

    You make the standard, sophistic pro-Israel argument, an deliberately opaque conflation of moral and strategic “reasoning” that has no goal other than to promote the welfare of Israel as you understand it.

    You represent the destructive parasitism that Phil Giraldi makes reference to in his last paragraph.

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  13. @anon
    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    On Sept 12, 2002 Benjamin Netanyahu urged a US congressional committee to attack Iraq.
    Therefore, it’s reasonable — essential, really, to include the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq among the “wars that involve Jews” and deaths resulting from those wars.

    From Michael Eisenstadt’s recent comments on C Span, it’s also reasonable to conclude that the war in Syria “involves Jews,” therefore the 250,000 to 400,000 deaths and the massive displacement and destabilization of Syrians can be attributed at least in part to “Jewish involvement.”

    Further, Eisenstadt’s core message — his Luntzian talking points — urged that the USA “remain involved, must remain involved, has to remain involved” in the debacles in the Middle East for years, decades, perhaps several generations to come, to “support our allies,” and as every American knows from the first slap he experiences across his behind, Israel is “America’s ally,” with whom the USA has a “special relationship,” nunc et in aeternum, co-terminus with Jewish involvement in wars and consequent deaths.

    Own it.

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    • Replies: @Sherman
    What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?
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  14. TJM says:
    @RobinG
    This I like:

    "the Zionists had no legal authority for their unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948.

    The UN's acceptance of Israel's territorial conquest as a fait accompli and admission of Israel as a member in the wake of the war did not confer ex post facto legal authority for that declaration or justify the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population.

    There's an entire section in the book, by the way, about Israel's UN membership, and how the UN violated the UN Charter and prejudiced the rights of the Palestinians"

    Jeremy Hammond
     
    The "state of Israel" is an illegal construct, and the sooner it's deconstructed (peacefully dismantled), the better.

    There is no such thing as peaceful anything when you are dealing with Israeli’s. That is the great mistake of the West, they and their institutions are infested with Zionists, and they wonder why everything is going so poorly. But when you look at those pulling the strings, like a George Soros, or Bill Krystal, and those writing the legislation for the puppet politicians, you see the face of the Zionist.

    The man who pushed for the war ON Iraq, the men who wrote the sanctions on Iran, the persons who pushed for the conflict in Ukraine, the man who wrote the “Patriot Act”, or the men who work to justify the changes in American understanding of the Constitution and our Freedoms, the men who work to open our borders, the men who wrote the immigration “reform act”, the men who worked to undermine Glass- Steagler…and so much more. America is profoundly influenced by Zionist Jews, that in itself is concerning, but its the fact that we are NOT allowed to discuss this influence, even deny its existence is the most destructive.

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  15. @Mark Green
    What's uniquely problematic about the "special relationship" is its immense depth, its vast reach and its intense gravitational pull. This is no small matter.

    The Israeli lobby may be centered in Washington, but it's tentacles stretch worldwide. Moreover, Jews are--pound-for-pound--the world's most educated, wealthy, cohesive, savvy and influential sect. This makes The Lobby uniquely powerful. And 'unique' is, in this case, no exaggeration.

    Even the ancient Romans complained about their haughty arrogance.

    And for millions of Jews throughout the world, Jewish security is inseparable from Israel's. And Israel is on a world-class winning streak.

    Whereas other powerful and well-funded lobbies such as the NRA and the AARP are largely transparent and strictly domestic, the 'Israeli lobby' has no national boundaries. It also binds together individual identity with a group security in a fashion that is unparalleled.

    Toss in a race-oriented religion, supremely-high intelligence, historic grievance, economic power and stratospheric levels of ethnocentrism, and what we've got on our hands is a hornet's nest of entitlement, resentment and hubris. These are God's Chosen People.

    You may not believe it, but they do.

    And from the ashes of The Holocaust rose the downtrodden and the indestructible Jewish people. Innocent and suffering. Always innocent.

    That's the modern outline anyway. And it packs a punch.

    By contrast, Americans who identify as White are routinely depicted as 'racists' and scoundrels. Only Hollywood could manufacture and sustain such a narrative.

    If the Jews aren't the world's most glorious and cohesive tribe, then who is?

    Similarly, their cultural and political footprint is humongous.

    World Jewry (including Israel) constitutes the world's foremost superpower. The craven conduct of America's entire governing class proves this.

    The overriding influence of Zionism in the West goes a long way towards explaining why there is not one prominent public figure who will critically examine Jewish power at length or explore Jewish wealth and privilege openly. It doesn't happen. It can't.

    Plus, there's the opaque but vaguely recognizable network of shadowy and covert pro-Zionist organizations which never rest and which span the globe. Israeli surveillance, sabotage and intelligence-gathering is both revered and reviled. Jewish agency can be ruthless.

    America--and the world--has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.

    “America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.”

    The only thing that will change it, sadly, is a crisis of the American system. If the Chinese are successful in building a parallel global financial structure that ends US financial hegemony, it will unleash a catastrophic economic situation in which the US can no longer live beyond its means via the imperial tribute it exacts through dollar and treasury bill dominance. In the chaos that follow, the position of the Jews will become extremely perilous.

    Only that eventuality will create conditions–that is, conditions of intense suffering and instability in the US–that would allow for the termination of Jewish power as it now exists–hence, in large part, the panicky, aggressive anti-Chinese campaign that has been launched since the 2008 financial crisis.

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  16. TJM says:
    @Mark Green
    What's uniquely problematic about the "special relationship" is its immense depth, its vast reach and its intense gravitational pull. This is no small matter.

    The Israeli lobby may be centered in Washington, but it's tentacles stretch worldwide. Moreover, Jews are--pound-for-pound--the world's most educated, wealthy, cohesive, savvy and influential sect. This makes The Lobby uniquely powerful. And 'unique' is, in this case, no exaggeration.

    Even the ancient Romans complained about their haughty arrogance.

    And for millions of Jews throughout the world, Jewish security is inseparable from Israel's. And Israel is on a world-class winning streak.

    Whereas other powerful and well-funded lobbies such as the NRA and the AARP are largely transparent and strictly domestic, the 'Israeli lobby' has no national boundaries. It also binds together individual identity with a group security in a fashion that is unparalleled.

    Toss in a race-oriented religion, supremely-high intelligence, historic grievance, economic power and stratospheric levels of ethnocentrism, and what we've got on our hands is a hornet's nest of entitlement, resentment and hubris. These are God's Chosen People.

    You may not believe it, but they do.

    And from the ashes of The Holocaust rose the downtrodden and the indestructible Jewish people. Innocent and suffering. Always innocent.

    That's the modern outline anyway. And it packs a punch.

    By contrast, Americans who identify as White are routinely depicted as 'racists' and scoundrels. Only Hollywood could manufacture and sustain such a narrative.

    If the Jews aren't the world's most glorious and cohesive tribe, then who is?

    Similarly, their cultural and political footprint is humongous.

    World Jewry (including Israel) constitutes the world's foremost superpower. The craven conduct of America's entire governing class proves this.

    The overriding influence of Zionism in the West goes a long way towards explaining why there is not one prominent public figure who will critically examine Jewish power at length or explore Jewish wealth and privilege openly. It doesn't happen. It can't.

    Plus, there's the opaque but vaguely recognizable network of shadowy and covert pro-Zionist organizations which never rest and which span the globe. Israeli surveillance, sabotage and intelligence-gathering is both revered and reviled. Jewish agency can be ruthless.

    America--and the world--has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.

    Great post, one question though, as for their winning streak, would you not consider the Syrian conflict a loss for the “tribe”?

    As well, Kiev seems not to be working out as they planned or Turkey.

    Everyplace where Zionist Jews have spread their influence the nations have declined, and no better example of this is America.

    They control the media, entertainment, Hollywood, Wall Street, the Fed, Washington…and they are destroying the rest of the nation through the use of mas immigration.

    They have a desire for conflict, and are pushing idiot America to engage in a conflict with Russia and China. Things are changing with the internet, the word is getting out, even though they try and control that too. the question is, is it too late?

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  17. Sherman says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.
     
    On Sept 12, 2002 Benjamin Netanyahu urged a US congressional committee to attack Iraq.
    Therefore, it's reasonable -- essential, really, to include the hundreds of thousands of dead in Iraq among the "wars that involve Jews" and deaths resulting from those wars.

    From Michael Eisenstadt's recent comments on C Span, it's also reasonable to conclude that the war in Syria "involves Jews," therefore the 250,000 to 400,000 deaths and the massive displacement and destabilization of Syrians can be attributed at least in part to "Jewish involvement."

    Further, Eisenstadt's core message -- his Luntzian talking points -- urged that the USA "remain involved, must remain involved, has to remain involved" in the debacles in the Middle East for years, decades, perhaps several generations to come, to "support our allies," and as every American knows from the first slap he experiences across his behind, Israel is "America's ally," with whom the USA has a "special relationship," nunc et in aeternum, co-terminus with Jewish involvement in wars and consequent deaths.

    Own it.

    What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Is this by-now tedious rejoinder your admission that you are unable to, or incapable of, refuting any of the stated facts about Jewish involvement in wars in Iraq and Syria?
    , @Rehmat
    Why any Christian would respect todays Jews, who never existed when the four GOSPELs were authored? However, as the time passes, the Gentile from North Africa and Asia converted to Israelite faith in the 4th and 10th centuries to loot and corrupt the Christian lands in the West.

    The 'Semite fraud' runs in the self-denial Zionist Jew blood. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech at UN General Assembly last year was all about Iran’s nuclear program. That’s didn’t surprise pro-Iran diplomats listening to Netanyahu parroting, but what surprised many observers was the absence of two pro-Israel Crypto Jews; US secretary of state John Kerry, and US ambassador to UN Samantha Power.

    Elliot Abrams, former White House Jew aid and a war criminal, did notice this anti-Israel gesture. Abrams, who is now a senior fellow at Jewish-controlled CFR, excused fellow Jew Kerry, but blasted Power at CFR’s website Pressure Points on October 2, 2015. “As for Samantha Power, one has to wonder what was running through her mind when she was instructed to stay away. Is this really why she left the academic and intellectual life– to be used by the Obama administration to insult and damage Israel?,” he wrote....

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/10/netanyahu-obama-and-bible-hate-jews/
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  18. @Sherman
    What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?

    Is this by-now tedious rejoinder your admission that you are unable to, or incapable of, refuting any of the stated facts about Jewish involvement in wars in Iraq and Syria?

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    • Replies: @Sherman
    Rejoinder?

    Who taught you such a big word?

    Not only are you a neo-Nazi psycho but you're also pretentious.
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  19. What is usually neglected in all the “Jews are at fault” stuff that is spewed with great energy is the Muslim ideology of the Umma. The Land of Israel was occupied by Muslims during the conquest that began immediately after Mohamed’s death. The position if Muslims is that whatever was Muslim land is eternally Muslim land. Consequently, there can be no peace unless either Israel pushed into the Sea, or Islam is destroyed.

    The idea that the Jews are at fault is utter nonsense. Muslims will allow no compromise and have repeatedly stated that the two state “solution” is simply a way station on the way to the ultimate goal, the total destruction of Israel.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai. The Israelis struck because they new they would be overwhelmed if they did not. The Arabs lost in 6 days.

    You may be like Rehmat and think it’s all “da Jooooos,” but the facts tell a much different story. The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    This all comes down to Muslim recalcitrance, and they will not give up until Israel is no more. God, however, made a promise to Abraham and that promise will be kept. Muslims are preaching a lie, and they will bang their heads on a wall that God erected many years ago. That land is Israel’s home, and it will remain so.

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    • Replies: @Art
    The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    Quartermaster,

    You personally are a prime example of why the Jew are so disrespected by the world. You have no compunction about telling an in your face lie.

    The treatment of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities is nothing sort of criminal.


    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv's use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists

    https://vimeo.com/86575949
     

    Art
    , @alexander
    These are interesting observations, Quartermaster.


    There are, no doubt, many Muslim countries who do not accept the existence of the state of Israel, no matter where its borders are.

    (most of which have been thoroughly "pulverized" over the last 15 years)

    But there are many Muslim countries that DO accept the state of Israel, and many more who have acquiesced to its existence since 1948.

    The Arab peace initiative of 2002 recognizes the full rights of Israels existence within its mandated international borders.

    The Arab peace initiative fully conforms to all the parameters of the "two-state" solution.

    Israel CAN claim these initiatives are a smokescreen , and that the Muslims will take first advantage to attack and overwhelm Israel should they be given the time and the opportunity.


    But what if they don't ?

    What if the initiative is authentic ?

    What if most of the Muslim world HAS accepted the state of Israel ?

    Why not take a chance at peace ?

    Is there so much Israel stands to lose except for the West Bank and the Golan Heights, which are not recognized as part of Israel by the world community, anyway ?

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?
    , @Jeremy R. Hammond

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.
     
    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine -- by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the "Jewish state" of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel's own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel -- an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.
    , @Blake
    The UN General Assembly partition was a recommendation only. They referred it to the Security Council - UN body where resolutions are ratified into law - where it died. It was then that 'israel' declared itself into existence on stolen ethnically cleansed - under the barrel of a terrorist gun - on stolen Palestinian land.

    UN cannot take land from one and give to another it can make recommendations and if both sides agree it can be ratified in the SC into law. That did not happen here.

    Furthermore, when 'israel' was accepted into the UN on CONDITIONS - which it agreed to but has never adhered to - surely after 68 yrs it should be expelled! Why is it being treated with kid gloves.

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  20. Sherman says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    Is this by-now tedious rejoinder your admission that you are unable to, or incapable of, refuting any of the stated facts about Jewish involvement in wars in Iraq and Syria?

    Rejoinder?

    Who taught you such a big word?

    Not only are you a neo-Nazi psycho but you’re also pretentious.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    STILL unable to refute the stated facts regarding "Jewish involvement" in wars in Iraq and Syria. Doubling-down use of ad hominem.
    Signaling desperation.

    I don't know much about debate & argument; I used to be a judge at debate tournaments when one of our kids was on a team that won national championships, but I wasn't very good at it -- the kids talked way too fast. But I did get the impression that the point of argument/debate was to present information that contradicted the adversary's; or to demonstrate how the adversary's evidence or logic was fallacious, etc.

    Your comments are a corollary to "if your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail." The "nails" that you see all around you are, um, nailing you to the wall of mendacity -- (oops, too big a word? I didn't want to be crude and say something like, pack of stupid lies, but it means pretty much the same thing) -- that a certain group has constructed over the past century or so; you're unable to remove the nails, nor to free yourself from being bound by them, so you lash out, futilely, as it were, with the only hammer you've got: childish ad hominem. Funny how it's almost like a signed confession.
    , @annamaria
    I apologize for the intrusion into your conversation with SolontoCroesus, but was not it a member of Kagans clan that cooperated with Ukrainian neonazis on behalf of the US government? There is also an famous Mr. Kolomojsky, a Ukrainian/Israeli citizen that used to finance Ukrainian neonazis in the course of the Kiev-initiated civil war. There was even an auto-da-fe in Odessa, which involved Mr. Kolomojsky' employees from Azov battalion. In the US, Mr. Kolomojsky was warmly greeted by WSJ, a pro-Israel entity.
    Where was the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC when of the US have started the collaboration with the neonazis? These Jewish organizations were silent when Nuland-Kagan fraternized with Ukrainian neonazis and when Israel traded Syrian oil with ISIS and provided med. treatment for ISIS jihadis.
    Actually, to a certain extend, I sympathize with you. Ziocons have no honor and no conscience. The lost tribe. In no measure they should be mistaken for Schweitzer, Einstein, Arendt and other amazing individuals produced by Jewish people living among other cultures than Jewish.
    Ziocons have become a planetary menace because of their power over the US governance.
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  21. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Phil….just write it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Indeed, Phil, write the book on "actual damage that Israel has done to the United States" but don't limit it to theft and spying and snaring into unnecessary wars. Give some attention to their assault on the essence of this country, the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    OUR CIVIL RIGHTS ARE THREATENED BY ISRAEL

    Israel's US Lobby hates the free speech of our 1st Amendment. On Monday the CA legislature was scheduled to vote on the anti-BDS AB 2844. (Anyone know how that went?) State laws like AB 2844 are attacks on our right to free expression. In Europe today, and Canada, there are laws prohibiting perceived anti-Semitism. If laws like AB 2844 are enacted that curtail meaningful criticism of Israel, we are on the way to restriction of open discussion such as we enjoy at Unz Review.

    COROLLARY: THE 2ND AMENDMENT PRECEDENT

    The recent attempt to use the 'No Fly, No Buy' list to abrogate gun rights was a vicious, lazy and stupid assault on all our civil rights. Those fools thought they could use the Orlando debacle to push through unconstitutional restrictions. No-Fly, No Buy is based on a secret list compiled by the FBI. Please imagine a secret list of "Persons critical of Israel" who will be summarily prohibited from publishing or speaking in public. (Maybe barred from internet or social media access.) If you note that a Canadian was recently sentenced to jail for posting writings on the web deemed anti-Semitic, you know this is not far-fetched.
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  22. Art says:
    @Quartermaster
    What is usually neglected in all the "Jews are at fault" stuff that is spewed with great energy is the Muslim ideology of the Umma. The Land of Israel was occupied by Muslims during the conquest that began immediately after Mohamed's death. The position if Muslims is that whatever was Muslim land is eternally Muslim land. Consequently, there can be no peace unless either Israel pushed into the Sea, or Islam is destroyed.

    The idea that the Jews are at fault is utter nonsense. Muslims will allow no compromise and have repeatedly stated that the two state "solution" is simply a way station on the way to the ultimate goal, the total destruction of Israel.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai. The Israelis struck because they new they would be overwhelmed if they did not. The Arabs lost in 6 days.

    You may be like Rehmat and think it's all "da Jooooos," but the facts tell a much different story. The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    This all comes down to Muslim recalcitrance, and they will not give up until Israel is no more. God, however, made a promise to Abraham and that promise will be kept. Muslims are preaching a lie, and they will bang their heads on a wall that God erected many years ago. That land is Israel's home, and it will remain so.

    The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    Quartermaster,

    You personally are a prime example of why the Jew are so disrespected by the world. You have no compunction about telling an in your face lie.

    The treatment of Palestinian children by Israeli authorities is nothing sort of criminal.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv’s use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists

    Art

    Read More
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  23. Rehmat says:
    @Sherman
    What was that part about your parents teaching you to respect Jews?

    Why any Christian would respect todays Jews, who never existed when the four GOSPELs were authored? However, as the time passes, the Gentile from North Africa and Asia converted to Israelite faith in the 4th and 10th centuries to loot and corrupt the Christian lands in the West.

    The ‘Semite fraud’ runs in the self-denial Zionist Jew blood. For example, Benjamin Netanyahu’s speech at UN General Assembly last year was all about Iran’s nuclear program. That’s didn’t surprise pro-Iran diplomats listening to Netanyahu parroting, but what surprised many observers was the absence of two pro-Israel Crypto Jews; US secretary of state John Kerry, and US ambassador to UN Samantha Power.

    Elliot Abrams, former White House Jew aid and a war criminal, did notice this anti-Israel gesture. Abrams, who is now a senior fellow at Jewish-controlled CFR, excused fellow Jew Kerry, but blasted Power at CFR’s website Pressure Points on October 2, 2015. “As for Samantha Power, one has to wonder what was running through her mind when she was instructed to stay away. Is this really why she left the academic and intellectual life– to be used by the Obama administration to insult and damage Israel?,” he wrote….

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/10/netanyahu-obama-and-bible-hate-jews/

    Read More
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  24. alexander says:
    @Quartermaster
    What is usually neglected in all the "Jews are at fault" stuff that is spewed with great energy is the Muslim ideology of the Umma. The Land of Israel was occupied by Muslims during the conquest that began immediately after Mohamed's death. The position if Muslims is that whatever was Muslim land is eternally Muslim land. Consequently, there can be no peace unless either Israel pushed into the Sea, or Islam is destroyed.

    The idea that the Jews are at fault is utter nonsense. Muslims will allow no compromise and have repeatedly stated that the two state "solution" is simply a way station on the way to the ultimate goal, the total destruction of Israel.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai. The Israelis struck because they new they would be overwhelmed if they did not. The Arabs lost in 6 days.

    You may be like Rehmat and think it's all "da Jooooos," but the facts tell a much different story. The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    This all comes down to Muslim recalcitrance, and they will not give up until Israel is no more. God, however, made a promise to Abraham and that promise will be kept. Muslims are preaching a lie, and they will bang their heads on a wall that God erected many years ago. That land is Israel's home, and it will remain so.

    These are interesting observations, Quartermaster.

    There are, no doubt, many Muslim countries who do not accept the existence of the state of Israel, no matter where its borders are.

    (most of which have been thoroughly “pulverized” over the last 15 years)

    But there are many Muslim countries that DO accept the state of Israel, and many more who have acquiesced to its existence since 1948.

    The Arab peace initiative of 2002 recognizes the full rights of Israels existence within its mandated international borders.

    The Arab peace initiative fully conforms to all the parameters of the “two-state” solution.

    Israel CAN claim these initiatives are a smokescreen , and that the Muslims will take first advantage to attack and overwhelm Israel should they be given the time and the opportunity.

    But what if they don’t ?

    What if the initiative is authentic ?

    What if most of the Muslim world HAS accepted the state of Israel ?

    Why not take a chance at peace ?

    Is there so much Israel stands to lose except for the West Bank and the Golan Heights, which are not recognized as part of Israel by the world community, anyway ?

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?
     
    neon light-worthy.

    great comment.
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  25. @Sherman
    Rejoinder?

    Who taught you such a big word?

    Not only are you a neo-Nazi psycho but you're also pretentious.

    STILL unable to refute the stated facts regarding “Jewish involvement” in wars in Iraq and Syria. Doubling-down use of ad hominem.
    Signaling desperation.

    I don’t know much about debate & argument; I used to be a judge at debate tournaments when one of our kids was on a team that won national championships, but I wasn’t very good at it — the kids talked way too fast. But I did get the impression that the point of argument/debate was to present information that contradicted the adversary’s; or to demonstrate how the adversary’s evidence or logic was fallacious, etc.

    Your comments are a corollary to “if your only tool is a hammer, every problem is a nail.” The “nails” that you see all around you are, um, nailing you to the wall of mendacity — (oops, too big a word? I didn’t want to be crude and say something like, pack of stupid lies, but it means pretty much the same thing) — that a certain group has constructed over the past century or so; you’re unable to remove the nails, nor to free yourself from being bound by them, so you lash out, futilely, as it were, with the only hammer you’ve got: childish ad hominem. Funny how it’s almost like a signed confession.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Clyde
    fail! lugubrious fail!
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  26. @alexander
    These are interesting observations, Quartermaster.


    There are, no doubt, many Muslim countries who do not accept the existence of the state of Israel, no matter where its borders are.

    (most of which have been thoroughly "pulverized" over the last 15 years)

    But there are many Muslim countries that DO accept the state of Israel, and many more who have acquiesced to its existence since 1948.

    The Arab peace initiative of 2002 recognizes the full rights of Israels existence within its mandated international borders.

    The Arab peace initiative fully conforms to all the parameters of the "two-state" solution.

    Israel CAN claim these initiatives are a smokescreen , and that the Muslims will take first advantage to attack and overwhelm Israel should they be given the time and the opportunity.


    But what if they don't ?

    What if the initiative is authentic ?

    What if most of the Muslim world HAS accepted the state of Israel ?

    Why not take a chance at peace ?

    Is there so much Israel stands to lose except for the West Bank and the Golan Heights, which are not recognized as part of Israel by the world community, anyway ?

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?

    If, as you say, it is the Muslim world, NOT Israel, that wants conflict, why is it Israel has no Peace Plan and the Muslims do ?

    neon light-worthy.

    great comment.

    Read More
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  27. MMM says:
    @TJM
    WHAT, "one conflict involves Jews", in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute...and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with "Black Lives Matter". Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!

    “EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS!”

    That is very true, and you will never read that in the Zionist owned and controlled propaganda aka Mainstream Media, and phony alternative media.

    ‘The Obstacle to Peace’ featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for “Israel” and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    The world is waking up and finding out the names of what it is sick to death of — what has made it sick. And they are everywhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond

    ‘The Obstacle to Peace’ featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for “Israel” and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?
     
    I welcome you to read it to be able to be in a position to judge that for yourself (as opposed to judging it based on your opinion of someone who has written a blurb for it). You mentioned the role of the mainstream media, which Obstacle to Peace focuses heavily on, showing how it systematically deceives people about the true nature of the conflict.
    , @Lee
    No, conflict starts against Jews but is ignored this hatred just grows until it engulfs everyone by which time millions have died. It is similar to the millions of Christians being killed by Muslims in Indonesia, Mali, Nigeria Somalia, Pakistan, recently Bangladesh and the World stays silent. There is enough hatred in our World without writing books that encourage it.
    Answer me this question: Gaza 2008 all the Jews ethnically cleansed, roads, houses and infrastructure left intact. a lot of financial Aid given to Gaza by UN/US/EEC. All utilities gas, water etc supplied by Israel. All the crossings open. Three weeks later the first rocket into Israel FROM Gaza.WHY??
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  28. RobinG says:
    @TJM
    "Mad dogs", do you mean the Israeli's?

    Where do you think you are that you can speak such lies and get away with it. Israel and its rabid supporters IS the reason their is conflict in the Middle East.

    Zionist Jews work tirelessly to create conflict in the Middle East. Everyone knows Iran has no nukes, but that does not stop the mad dog Netanyahu from pushing for war with Iran. Just like he did with Iraq. And within and without of the US governemnt, Zionist Jew forces work to create conflict with Russia, Syria, Libya, Iraq, Iran, Muslims in general, and anyone who stands in their way of global financial domination.

    Just look at he Bretix vote, the Zionist were trying to work their magic to scare the Brits into staying in their NWO, but the Brits said NO. Interesting FACT, the EU gives preferential trade deal with ISRAEL, even though it is against their charter, and give no such sweetheart deals to any other member.

    Hollywood, which is undeniably Zionist Jew, promotes hate of both Christians, Muslims, and Russians, while promoting sex, violence and greed to an unassuming public.

    Zionism is the greatest force for evil on the planet, and everything form Wikileaks to Google can back that statement up!

    Dis you intend this reply for #2 Joe Martin? (Those are not my mad dogs.)

    Read More
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  29. nickels says:

    There will be no peace until western Catholics ally with Russian Orthodoxy and forcibly remove the Hebrewites from the land of the saviour, reinstate Koine Greek and establish the rule of a united Catholic/Orthodox society in the Holy Lands.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Most "Roman Catholics" in the USA today are Mexican or Latin American, and they neither know nor care about eastern Orthodoxy.

    Why God would possibly care about "Koine Greek" or any other particular language being "reinstated", is difficult to fathom.

    I do agree, however, that all white and western peoples should demand that their governments ally with Russia against the threats of Islam and China.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Is that the same as saying that it is 99.99 per cent certain that there will be no peace or merely 99 per cent certain?
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  30. RobinG says:
    @Anonymous
    Phil....just write it.

    Indeed, Phil, write the book on “actual damage that Israel has done to the United States” but don’t limit it to theft and spying and snaring into unnecessary wars. Give some attention to their assault on the essence of this country, the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

    OUR CIVIL RIGHTS ARE THREATENED BY ISRAEL

    Israel’s US Lobby hates the free speech of our 1st Amendment. On Monday the CA legislature was scheduled to vote on the anti-BDS AB 2844. (Anyone know how that went?) State laws like AB 2844 are attacks on our right to free expression. In Europe today, and Canada, there are laws prohibiting perceived anti-Semitism. If laws like AB 2844 are enacted that curtail meaningful criticism of Israel, we are on the way to restriction of open discussion such as we enjoy at Unz Review.

    COROLLARY: THE 2ND AMENDMENT PRECEDENT

    The recent attempt to use the ‘No Fly, No Buy’ list to abrogate gun rights was a vicious, lazy and stupid assault on all our civil rights. Those fools thought they could use the Orlando debacle to push through unconstitutional restrictions. No-Fly, No Buy is based on a secret list compiled by the FBI. Please imagine a secret list of “Persons critical of Israel” who will be summarily prohibited from publishing or speaking in public. (Maybe barred from internet or social media access.) If you note that a Canadian was recently sentenced to jail for posting writings on the web deemed anti-Semitic, you know this is not far-fetched.

    Read More
    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
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  31. I was only 17 years old when I realized almost everything that is wrong in the middle east is because of israel.

    if arabs ever want control of their own lands and lives, their only choice is to get rich and get better arms. basically strong enough where they can even resist the us military.

    it is hard with their leaders getting assassinated left and right, still they must try.

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  32. schmenz says:

    Articles like this – and it is a fine article, by the way – depress me terribly. But as depressing as the situation is over there this article, by Steven Sniegoski, is even more depressing:

    http://www.thornwalker.com/ditch/ (click on “New Article by Steven Sniegoski”)

    If what Sniegoski says is true, then Russia is dumber than I thought and there will never be any hope for the Palestinians.

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  33. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG
    This I like:

    "the Zionists had no legal authority for their unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel on May 14, 1948.

    The UN's acceptance of Israel's territorial conquest as a fait accompli and admission of Israel as a member in the wake of the war did not confer ex post facto legal authority for that declaration or justify the ethnic cleansing of the Arab population.

    There's an entire section in the book, by the way, about Israel's UN membership, and how the UN violated the UN Charter and prejudiced the rights of the Palestinians"

    Jeremy Hammond
     
    The "state of Israel" is an illegal construct, and the sooner it's deconstructed (peacefully dismantled), the better.

    As creation of states go, importantly during the period over which colonial powers were drawing and re-drawing national boundaries, Israel’s was as exemplary an application of legal process as one might hope to feature. For example, the legal force material to the creation of separate states in the Indian subcontinent, was, in the final analysis, drawn of the “legal framework” and subsequent bequeathal of the body of relevant laws from HMG. And, not to put too fine a point on it, the United Nations had no influence in the matter whatsoever, other than in the capacity of an observer in population movements during the partition.

    In Israel’s case, the U.N. voted, [how the votes were cajoled is fodder for speculation and intrigue for fertile minds], yet its authority stands. There is little to benefit from rehashing the various wars: civil, international and aggressive, fought by the various populations on the expiry of the Mandate and thereafter.

    Dismantlement of the state therefore, is neither legal nor practical, nor possible without grievous consequences. Time and grey matter better spent formulating avenues which circumvent Bibi’s grip; on the Israeli population, and via their rulers, on the KSA and the Gulf. This is the only way I see forward to the 1SS with full rights for Arab citizens and no right of return, which is a non-starter for not just Israel but for the BDS’ers as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    I hope Gucci has these in your size, Sam -- https://www.gucci.com/us/en/pr/women/womens-shoes/womens-sandals/leather-studded-sandal-p-425930CQXL06476?gclid=CIbNp7Hj6c4CFckfhgod6LUG9w

    Given the way you dig in your heels in an attempt to sustain a narrative that started out on a slippery slope, you're going to need high, stout heels and leather studs just to hang on as Team Israel loses the tug-of-war and is inexorably pulled into the mud pit.

    It was difficult to suggest Italian style: I hate to see anything Italian end up in the muck and mud, but on the other hand, only the best for our friend Sam.

    Rallegramenti per il tuo secondo posto finale
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  34. annamaria says:
    @Sherman
    Rejoinder?

    Who taught you such a big word?

    Not only are you a neo-Nazi psycho but you're also pretentious.

    I apologize for the intrusion into your conversation with SolontoCroesus, but was not it a member of Kagans clan that cooperated with Ukrainian neonazis on behalf of the US government? There is also an famous Mr. Kolomojsky, a Ukrainian/Israeli citizen that used to finance Ukrainian neonazis in the course of the Kiev-initiated civil war. There was even an auto-da-fe in Odessa, which involved Mr. Kolomojsky’ employees from Azov battalion. In the US, Mr. Kolomojsky was warmly greeted by WSJ, a pro-Israel entity.
    Where was the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC when of the US have started the collaboration with the neonazis? These Jewish organizations were silent when Nuland-Kagan fraternized with Ukrainian neonazis and when Israel traded Syrian oil with ISIS and provided med. treatment for ISIS jihadis.
    Actually, to a certain extend, I sympathize with you. Ziocons have no honor and no conscience. The lost tribe. In no measure they should be mistaken for Schweitzer, Einstein, Arendt and other amazing individuals produced by Jewish people living among other cultures than Jewish.
    Ziocons have become a planetary menace because of their power over the US governance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    correction: an infamous Mr. Kolomojsky
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  35. RobinG says:

    ISRAELI THINK-TANK SUPPORTS ISLAMIC STATE (ISIL)
    “The Western distaste for IS brutality and immorality should not obfuscate strategic clarity.”

    Of course, the Zionist penchant for weakening its neighbors takes precedence over mass murder, the destruction of a nation (Syria) and the destabilization of Europe. Their fraudulent demonization of Iran has unfortunately reached Trump’s ears. (Sad, but still more than cancelled by Hilligula’s fraudulent demonization of Putin and Russia.)

    BESA Center Perspectives Paper No. 353, August 2, 2016
    The Destruction of Islamic State is a Strategic Mistake

    http://besacenter.org/perspectives-papers/destruction-islamic-state-strategic-mistake/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Dear RobinG,

    I had not been paying much attention to this article, but glad I read through it and some of the comments.

    Great link - scary stuff - thanks for sharing!

    Peace.
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  36. annamaria says:
    @annamaria
    I apologize for the intrusion into your conversation with SolontoCroesus, but was not it a member of Kagans clan that cooperated with Ukrainian neonazis on behalf of the US government? There is also an famous Mr. Kolomojsky, a Ukrainian/Israeli citizen that used to finance Ukrainian neonazis in the course of the Kiev-initiated civil war. There was even an auto-da-fe in Odessa, which involved Mr. Kolomojsky' employees from Azov battalion. In the US, Mr. Kolomojsky was warmly greeted by WSJ, a pro-Israel entity.
    Where was the Anti-Defamation League and AIPAC when of the US have started the collaboration with the neonazis? These Jewish organizations were silent when Nuland-Kagan fraternized with Ukrainian neonazis and when Israel traded Syrian oil with ISIS and provided med. treatment for ISIS jihadis.
    Actually, to a certain extend, I sympathize with you. Ziocons have no honor and no conscience. The lost tribe. In no measure they should be mistaken for Schweitzer, Einstein, Arendt and other amazing individuals produced by Jewish people living among other cultures than Jewish.
    Ziocons have become a planetary menace because of their power over the US governance.

    correction: an infamous Mr. Kolomojsky

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  37. @Sam Shama
    As creation of states go, importantly during the period over which colonial powers were drawing and re-drawing national boundaries, Israel's was as exemplary an application of legal process as one might hope to feature. For example, the legal force material to the creation of separate states in the Indian subcontinent, was, in the final analysis, drawn of the "legal framework" and subsequent bequeathal of the body of relevant laws from HMG. And, not to put too fine a point on it, the United Nations had no influence in the matter whatsoever, other than in the capacity of an observer in population movements during the partition.

    In Israel's case, the U.N. voted, [how the votes were cajoled is fodder for speculation and intrigue for fertile minds], yet its authority stands. There is little to benefit from rehashing the various wars: civil, international and aggressive, fought by the various populations on the expiry of the Mandate and thereafter.

    Dismantlement of the state therefore, is neither legal nor practical, nor possible without grievous consequences. Time and grey matter better spent formulating avenues which circumvent Bibi's grip; on the Israeli population, and via their rulers, on the KSA and the Gulf. This is the only way I see forward to the 1SS with full rights for Arab citizens and no right of return, which is a non-starter for not just Israel but for the BDS'ers as well.

    I hope Gucci has these in your size, Sam — https://www.gucci.com/us/en/pr/women/womens-shoes/womens-sandals/leather-studded-sandal-p-425930CQXL06476?gclid=CIbNp7Hj6c4CFckfhgod6LUG9w

    Given the way you dig in your heels in an attempt to sustain a narrative that started out on a slippery slope, you’re going to need high, stout heels and leather studs just to hang on as Team Israel loses the tug-of-war and is inexorably pulled into the mud pit.

    It was difficult to suggest Italian style: I hate to see anything Italian end up in the muck and mud, but on the other hand, only the best for our friend Sam.

    Rallegramenti per il tuo secondo posto finale

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I hadn't any inkling that you were into women's wear and cross-dressing; would've expected a preference for lederhosen, even paired with jackboots, more your style. I pass no judgement on tastes of course.
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  38. […] is executive director of the Council for the National Interested. This piece was published by the Unz Review on August 30, […]

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  39. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    I hope Gucci has these in your size, Sam -- https://www.gucci.com/us/en/pr/women/womens-shoes/womens-sandals/leather-studded-sandal-p-425930CQXL06476?gclid=CIbNp7Hj6c4CFckfhgod6LUG9w

    Given the way you dig in your heels in an attempt to sustain a narrative that started out on a slippery slope, you're going to need high, stout heels and leather studs just to hang on as Team Israel loses the tug-of-war and is inexorably pulled into the mud pit.

    It was difficult to suggest Italian style: I hate to see anything Italian end up in the muck and mud, but on the other hand, only the best for our friend Sam.

    Rallegramenti per il tuo secondo posto finale

    I hadn’t any inkling that you were into women’s wear and cross-dressing; would’ve expected a preference for lederhosen, even paired with jackboots, more your style. I pass no judgement on tastes of course.

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    Lederhosen??

    And hide these hard-won abs?

    re the cross-dressing thing -- No aspersions intended: I was only thinking of you and your need for strong heels to dig in, all other avenues of extricating zionism from its morass being on the skids.
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  40. @Rehmat
    Jeremy Hammond doesn't mention any thing new. Anyone who has studied the Zionist occupation of once a Muslim-majority Palestine from some objective source knows that United States along with USSR and Britain played part of midwives for the creation, arming, and supporting to this day the "shitty little Zionist entity".

    In August 2009, I pulled Jeremy Hammond’s dirty pants by criticizing his interview with Pakistan's ISI chief Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul. In order to hide his 'Crypto Zionist' credentials, Jeremy Hammond, wrote a lengthy article, entitled, "Rehmat’s Delusional World".

    Iran's Islamists are the only ones who have shown the guts to help Palestinians financially and morally - risking the wrath of world powers controlled by the Zionist Judeo-Christianity.

    The United States and Britain have long turned into Israel's colonies. They along with Russia have lost their will to challenge the Zionist regime to even postpone building new illegal Jewish settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem captured by the Jewish army in June 1967. In 2010, David Makovsky, of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, a close associate of Dennis Ross, Obama’s chief adviser on the Middle East, disclosed that Obama wrote a letter to Benjamin Netanyahu to freeze the settlements for two months in return for a series of extraordinarily generous offers to Israel, many of them at the expense of the Palestinians. The offer was rejected by Netanyahu.

    Last year, Obama promised to increase US $3 billions annual military aid to $4.5 billions if the dude keep his mouth shut over the so-called P5+1 and Iran nuclear agreement. Ironically, Netanyahu got the increase without shutting his big mouth.

    US-born American anti-war activist, Dr. Dahlia Wasfi MD, in a 2008 speech (watch below) claims that the United states is totally occupied by Israel through Jewish lobby groups and Jewish oligarchs who buy US politicians as we saw during the recent AIPAC conference.

    Dr. Wasfi explains how the current bloodshed in the Middle East was started by the US, Israel, UK, and their regional clients to weaken the Muslim countries surrounding the Zionist entity for the benefit of Israel.

    Wasfi was born to an American Jewish mother and a Muslim Iraqi father in 1971. She is married to Ross Caputi, a US Marine, who fought in Iraq......

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/03/27/dahlia-wasfi-us-is-under-israeli-occupation/

    Jeremy Hammond doesn’t mention any thing new.

    How would you know? You’d have to actually read the book.

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  41. @Sam Shama
    I hadn't any inkling that you were into women's wear and cross-dressing; would've expected a preference for lederhosen, even paired with jackboots, more your style. I pass no judgement on tastes of course.

    Lederhosen??

    And hide these hard-won abs?

    re the cross-dressing thing — No aspersions intended: I was only thinking of you and your need for strong heels to dig in, all other avenues of extricating zionism from its morass being on the skids.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I only remark on this, the solitary instance when a misidentified defence of zionism and kitschy Italian [redundant distinction it may well be] women's footwear were suddenly co-deposited in a political commentary.

    A projection of preferences was the only logical conclusion possible. I shall speak no more of the matter :-)

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  42. @atheo
    Jeremy has been a stalwart denier of the power of the Israel lobby. Vehement insistence on the fallacious "war for oil" dogma.

    Any critique of Israel coming from Hammond should be viewed as a limited hangout intended to obscure Jewish power within western establishments.

    Perhaps you should read the book before judging it. You could learn a great deal about why US policy toward the Israel-Palestine conflict is what it is if you did so.

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  43. @Quartermaster
    What is usually neglected in all the "Jews are at fault" stuff that is spewed with great energy is the Muslim ideology of the Umma. The Land of Israel was occupied by Muslims during the conquest that began immediately after Mohamed's death. The position if Muslims is that whatever was Muslim land is eternally Muslim land. Consequently, there can be no peace unless either Israel pushed into the Sea, or Islam is destroyed.

    The idea that the Jews are at fault is utter nonsense. Muslims will allow no compromise and have repeatedly stated that the two state "solution" is simply a way station on the way to the ultimate goal, the total destruction of Israel.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai. The Israelis struck because they new they would be overwhelmed if they did not. The Arabs lost in 6 days.

    You may be like Rehmat and think it's all "da Jooooos," but the facts tell a much different story. The Israelis do all they can to prevent civilian causalities, while Arabs use kids as shields, as just one example.

    This all comes down to Muslim recalcitrance, and they will not give up until Israel is no more. God, however, made a promise to Abraham and that promise will be kept. Muslims are preaching a lie, and they will bang their heads on a wall that God erected many years ago. That land is Israel's home, and it will remain so.

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.

    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine — by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the “Jewish state” of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel’s own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel — an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.

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    • Replies: @RobinG
    Typo....... June 5 attack on Egypt, not Israel.
    , @Sam Shama

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.
     
    What did it then create? The first movement of a symphony? Which is arguably true and the allegro was seized upon by the Israeli leadership for the rest of the work. A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    , @Karl
    > having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai

    incorrect.

    "On 23 May 1967, Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage"

    as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War
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  44. @MMM
    "EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS!"

    That is very true, and you will never read that in the Zionist owned and controlled propaganda aka Mainstream Media, and phony alternative media.

    'The Obstacle to Peace' featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for "Israel" and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    The world is waking up and finding out the names of what it is sick to death of -- what has made it sick. And they are everywhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpybzN0cLo

    ‘The Obstacle to Peace’ featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for “Israel” and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    I welcome you to read it to be able to be in a position to judge that for yourself (as opposed to judging it based on your opinion of someone who has written a blurb for it). You mentioned the role of the mainstream media, which Obstacle to Peace focuses heavily on, showing how it systematically deceives people about the true nature of the conflict.

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  45. @nickels
    There will be no peace until western Catholics ally with Russian Orthodoxy and forcibly remove the Hebrewites from the land of the saviour, reinstate Koine Greek and establish the rule of a united Catholic/Orthodox society in the Holy Lands.

    Most “Roman Catholics” in the USA today are Mexican or Latin American, and they neither know nor care about eastern Orthodoxy.

    Why God would possibly care about “Koine Greek” or any other particular language being “reinstated”, is difficult to fathom.

    I do agree, however, that all white and western peoples should demand that their governments ally with Russia against the threats of Islam and China.

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    • Replies: @nickels
    I am beginning to think the whole Neocon obsession with continuing the cold war against Russia even after its over is exactly because they don't want western Christians to link up with Orthodox Russian Christians.
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  46. RobinG says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.
     
    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine -- by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the "Jewish state" of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel's own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel -- an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.

    Typo……. June 5 attack on Egypt, not Israel.

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    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
    Yes, thank you! Unfortunately, no way to edit to correct it, but quite a critical error! That should have of course read:

    The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Egypt despite Israel’s own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel...
     
    Thanks again for catching.
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  47. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    Lederhosen??

    And hide these hard-won abs?

    re the cross-dressing thing -- No aspersions intended: I was only thinking of you and your need for strong heels to dig in, all other avenues of extricating zionism from its morass being on the skids.

    I only remark on this, the solitary instance when a misidentified defence of zionism and kitschy Italian [redundant distinction it may well be] women’s footwear were suddenly co-deposited in a political commentary.

    A projection of preferences was the only logical conclusion possible. I shall speak no more of the matter :-)

    Read More
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  48. nickels says:
    @RadicalCenter
    Most "Roman Catholics" in the USA today are Mexican or Latin American, and they neither know nor care about eastern Orthodoxy.

    Why God would possibly care about "Koine Greek" or any other particular language being "reinstated", is difficult to fathom.

    I do agree, however, that all white and western peoples should demand that their governments ally with Russia against the threats of Islam and China.

    I am beginning to think the whole Neocon obsession with continuing the cold war against Russia even after its over is exactly because they don’t want western Christians to link up with Orthodox Russian Christians.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    I share your supposition in that regard.
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  49. @RobinG
    Typo....... June 5 attack on Egypt, not Israel.

    Yes, thank you! Unfortunately, no way to edit to correct it, but quite a critical error! That should have of course read:

    The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Egypt despite Israel’s own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel…

    Thanks again for catching.

    Read More
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  50. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.
     
    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine -- by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the "Jewish state" of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel's own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel -- an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    What did it then create? The first movement of a symphony? Which is arguably true and the allegro was seized upon by the Israeli leadership for the rest of the work. A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

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    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond

    What did it then create?
     
    Resolution 181 created nothing. Nor, again, did it confer any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of the existence of the state of Israel.

    A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.
     
    This statement assumes Israel was created partially from UN resolutions. Again, this is false.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.
     
    Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.
    , @Art
    Sam,

    Legalities aside, creating Israel has been a giant mistake that has brought a new tension to the whole world. Your Jews said that they would make the desert bloom - well the obvious result is blood and hate in the ME, Europe, and America. As many people have died as a result of Israel, as Jews that were killed in WWII. As you know, we are not even close to the beginning of the end of the killing.

    We see your fellow hasbaraists express a desire for much more death. In the last election, Netanyahu promised no peace, and the Jews voted him.

    You say Israel does wrong – but it is obvious that you defend it over the best interests of the country that you live within.

    You are not the average hasbaraist. What are we to think? What are your true desires?

    Art

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  51. @Sam Shama

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.
     
    What did it then create? The first movement of a symphony? Which is arguably true and the allegro was seized upon by the Israeli leadership for the rest of the work. A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    What did it then create?

    Resolution 181 created nothing. Nor, again, did it confer any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of the existence of the state of Israel.

    A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    This statement assumes Israel was created partially from UN resolutions. Again, this is false.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in "nation-building" you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    "deconstruction" and "peaceful dismantlement" of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?
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  52. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.
    The absurdity of the notion that sacrificing Israel or the Alter of Muslim rage is beyond credulity. What ever imperfection and or even venality arising out of the capture of US policy by the neoco, NWO elites, sacrificing Israel will no more appease these mad dogs than the Munich accords appeased Hitler.

    Nonsensical propaganda created to sustain supremacist Jews / Zionism.

    Your position rests upon the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’, a profoundly false & laughable premise.

    There is Hitler with the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ and there is Hitler without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    http://www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Jews have been marketing the ’6,000,000′ lie since 1869:

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
    Quite the racist moron you are. Come on tell us just where all those 12 million people disappeared to? Got any pics of your SS tattoos you can show us?
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  53. Wally says: • Website
    @TJM
    WHAT, "one conflict involves Jews", in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute...and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with "Black Lives Matter". Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!

    The talented Mel Gibson nailed it.

    And actions of Jews prove it.

    see:
    Zionist Wikipedia Editing Course

    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/139189

    and:
    The Zionist attempt to control language.
    The Israel Project’s 2009 GLOBAL LANGUAGE DICTIONARY

    https://www.transcend.org/tms/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/sf-israel-projects-2009-global-language-dictionary.pdf

    and:
    The commander behind the pro-Israel student troops on U.S. college campuses

    http://www.haaretz.com/misc/article-print-page//.premium-1.709014

    and:
    Israel tech site paying “interns” to covertly plant stories in social media

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/asa-winstanley/israel-tech-site-paying-interns-covertly-plant-stories-social-media

    and:
    Israeli students to get $2,000 to spread state propaganda on Facebook

    http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-students-get-2000-spread-state-propaganda-facebook

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  54. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    What did it then create?
     
    Resolution 181 created nothing. Nor, again, did it confer any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of the existence of the state of Israel.

    A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.
     
    This statement assumes Israel was created partially from UN resolutions. Again, this is false.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.
     
    Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That’s all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in “nation-building” you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    “deconstruction” and “peaceful dismantlement” of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    One step at a time, and by pressure on all fronts.

    Here's a reminder. On August 8 a case was filed in Federal court challenging the legality of U.S. aid to Israel.

    Lawsuit Claims Aid to Nuclear Israel Illegal Under Symington Glenn Amendments
    http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/lawsuit-claims-aid-to-nuclear-israel-illegal-under-symington-glenn-amendments/
    , @SolontoCroesus
    ah, Sam, not only do the shoes fit and function for digging in heels, they're useful for backpedaling -- the glorification/normalization of zionism is contrary to other positions you have taken.

    States come and states go: Italy was invaded, occupied, oppressed, rebelled, restored, re-invaded a dozen times or more. Similar things happened to Persia. Germans have been decimated by wars -- you should know that: Jews played a vanguard role in bringing about their destruction. They rose again, smaller bit of land, but still German.

    Why isn't it reasonable that a state whose existence has come about at the expense -- the devastating expense of most of its neighbors as well as hundreds of thousands of people in far distant lands who have been boonswoggled into financing and supporting it -- bleeding for it, paying for it -- why shouldn't such an unpleasant blot on the globe be subjected to reformation, with extreme prejudice if need be? After all, doesn't the US use its military might and financial power to alter the "behavior" of other states that have spent the last 3000 years in their own footprint, minding pretty much their own business until someone comes along who thinks their "behavior" needs to be changed?

    Can you think of any state more in need of behavioral adjustment than Israel?

    As for your "everybody does it" argument -- did your learn that in one of your PhD courses? Surely that was not handed down to you in the 60% of Jewish genes that are from those kitschy Italians.

    Kitschy -- is that Sicilian dialect, or Apulia?
    , @Jeremy R. Hammond

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets...
     
    No, the racist, colonialist premises of Resolution 181 and the partition plan's explicit rejection of the right of the Arab majority of Palestine to self-determination is not "as good as it gets". As good as it gets would entail respecting the equal rights of all parties. As good as it gets would have been for the independence of Palestine to be recognized and a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation, which is precisely what the Arabs proposed, but which was rejected both by the Zionists and their Western imperialist benefactors.
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  55. Michael Eisenstadt, director of MidEast Policy for WINEP, the AIPAC think tank that is also home to Dennis Ross, was guest on C Span Washington Journal to discuss what US policy should be going forward. https://www.c-span.org/video/?414130-5/washington-journal-michael-eisenstadt-middle-east-policy

    Eisenstadt urged that US “remain engaged” — for several decades if not forever, to “protect American interests and allies in the region.”

    Numerous callers to the program took the contrary view: USA should mind its own business and not attempt to impose its will or its culture on the peoples of the Middle East; they should be left alone to solve their own problems.

    Several of those callers said that “US interventions had caused nothing but death, destruction and instability for the people in the region, and erosion of rights and of security for the American people.”

    “What good has come from any of the US incursions in the region?” asked several callers of Eisenstadt.

    He responded:

    Has intervention ever worked? I would argue first of all in the ’73 war, where we actually threatened to intervene in response to perceived threats of the Soviets at the time, it was actually truly brilliant because it enabled us to help —enabled us to ensure an [unambiguous outcome to the ’73 war, which enabled, enabled Sadat eventually to seek peace with Israel and Sadat’s Egypt to become a close ally of the United States.

    So I think the ’73 war is a very good example of how American diplomatic and threatened military intervention actually bore tremendous results, both in terms of American interests and I would argue, for stability in the region.

    Eisenstadt's response was particularly tone-deaf, in view of his own comments earlier: While reviewing the comments he had heard on a recent trip to the region, Eisenstadt said,

    "[I heard criticisms from Gulf Arabs of] our perceived abandonment of President Mubarak of Egypt once you had the Arab Spring in Cairo.

    Now I —- my, my come back to this is that, you know, we had no choice. I mean what are we going to do? Intervene and send the 82nd Airborne into Tahir Square in order to, y’know, enable Mubarak to keep his position? So I think there would be criticisms on that count that were unfair and we are just going to differ with our allies.”

    (SIDEBAR: This comment reminded me of a refrain Bennie Morris relied upon to salve his conscience regarding the massacres of Palestinian Arabs that his “revisionist history” research had uncovered: “Our backs were to the wall,” Morris pleaded. “Our backs were to the wall; all we could do was kill the Arabs, we had no choice. Oh — and rape, too; Israelis did a lot of raping. But our backs were to the wall.”)

    A few minutes later, in response to a question from the audience as to “whether Egypt will devolve into chaos like Libya, Syria, and Iraq,” Eisenstadt responded:

    “Right now, it looks like Sisi has a firm grip, but there are signs that that could change at any time as a result of an assassination or possible coup. Things are not going great in Cairo . . .
    It provides a great case in which from our point of view, there are a lot of things unpalatable in terms of the way he is prosecuting the fight against ISIL. On the other hand, we have seen in the past what happens when they get rid of authoritarian leaders and what often follows is worse. We have a horrible choice there.”

    This statement is particularly revealing in light of a comment that former Mossad agent and Israeli foreign policy consultant to Netanyahu Yossi Alpher made in Washington, DC in 2015. Alpher conceded that Sisi was a “military dictator” who was oppressing the very same young Egyptians who had risked their lives to oust Mubarak, and that as they grew older there would be simmering resentment of the dictator Sisi, but “We Israelis must do what is in our interest, and Sisi keeping a lid on Egypt is good for Israel.”
    “Our backs were to the wall.”

    The one consistency in Eisenstadt’s notions about Egypt is, Is it good for Israel?

    Humiliating Sadat, a strong, popular Egyptian leader, was a good thing — for Israel.
    Removing the strong-man puppet that exercised American-enforced control over Egypt was not a good thing because it resulted in too much power to the people, a situation that was quickly remedied by the overthrow of Morsi and his replacement with another strong man/puppet dictator who keeps the lid on Egypt — good for Israel.

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  56. @Wally
    Nonsensical propaganda created to sustain supremacist Jews / Zionism.

    Your position rests upon the '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers', a profoundly false & laughable premise.

    There is Hitler with the mythological '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' and there is Hitler without the mythological ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.


    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    Jews have been marketing the '6,000,000' lie since 1869:

    http://i1117.photobucket.com/albums/k598/WhiteWolf722/TheSixMillionMyth.jpg

    Quite the racist moron you are. Come on tell us just where all those 12 million people disappeared to? Got any pics of your SS tattoos you can show us?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Quite the irrational lemming you are.

    Jews say those millions went to enormous mass graves which they have not, cannot show us.

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    The massive numbers of so called "survivor$" are living testimony to fraudulence of the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

    The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

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  57. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.
     
    What did it then create? The first movement of a symphony? Which is arguably true and the allegro was seized upon by the Israeli leadership for the rest of the work. A state is not an abstraction created from resolutions exclusively.

    You critically failed to mention [here, but perhaps accounted for in your book which I shall order] : The resolution was accepted by the Jews in Palestine, yet rejected by the Arabs in Palestine and the Arab states.

    Sam,

    Legalities aside, creating Israel has been a giant mistake that has brought a new tension to the whole world. Your Jews said that they would make the desert bloom – well the obvious result is blood and hate in the ME, Europe, and America. As many people have died as a result of Israel, as Jews that were killed in WWII. As you know, we are not even close to the beginning of the end of the killing.

    We see your fellow hasbaraists express a desire for much more death. In the last election, Netanyahu promised no peace, and the Jews voted him.

    You say Israel does wrong – but it is obvious that you defend it over the best interests of the country that you live within.

    You are not the average hasbaraist. What are we to think? What are your true desires?

    Art

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  58. gdpbull says:

    The Jewish leaders are largely in denial that anti-semitism is rising in the US, which is their current favorite country next to Israel. Eventually, it will be undeniable. They will then begin to get nervous and start looking for their next favorite country to hopefully influence to be Israel’s protector. And it will become more obvious that the US is gradually becoming third world and will eventually be unable to protect Israel in any case. A hundred years from now, we will be much like Brazil. I estimate that about fifty years from now the (((((DiamondGoldSilversteinmanwitzbergs))))) will be starting to migrate in a big way to their new favorite country, probably China.

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  59. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama
    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in "nation-building" you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    "deconstruction" and "peaceful dismantlement" of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?

    One step at a time, and by pressure on all fronts.

    Here’s a reminder. On August 8 a case was filed in Federal court challenging the legality of U.S. aid to Israel.

    Lawsuit Claims Aid to Nuclear Israel Illegal Under Symington Glenn Amendments

    http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/lawsuit-claims-aid-to-nuclear-israel-illegal-under-symington-glenn-amendments/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    That aid should be stopped as I've repeated endlessly. It makes little economic difference for Israel, but just you watch the bleats that will come out of - Egypt, Jordan, and a whole host of others.

    Look I am unimpressed by these lawsuits. Many of these and other complaints have been filed in the past based on obscure draws on the legal code. Won't go anywhere.

    You haven't addressed any of the other questions I posed:

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    and what do you mean by "dismantlement"?

     

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  60. @Sam Shama
    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in "nation-building" you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    "deconstruction" and "peaceful dismantlement" of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?

    ah, Sam, not only do the shoes fit and function for digging in heels, they’re useful for backpedaling — the glorification/normalization of zionism is contrary to other positions you have taken.

    States come and states go: Italy was invaded, occupied, oppressed, rebelled, restored, re-invaded a dozen times or more. Similar things happened to Persia. Germans have been decimated by wars — you should know that: Jews played a vanguard role in bringing about their destruction. They rose again, smaller bit of land, but still German.

    Why isn’t it reasonable that a state whose existence has come about at the expense — the devastating expense of most of its neighbors as well as hundreds of thousands of people in far distant lands who have been boonswoggled into financing and supporting it — bleeding for it, paying for it — why shouldn’t such an unpleasant blot on the globe be subjected to reformation, with extreme prejudice if need be? After all, doesn’t the US use its military might and financial power to alter the “behavior” of other states that have spent the last 3000 years in their own footprint, minding pretty much their own business until someone comes along who thinks their “behavior” needs to be changed?

    Can you think of any state more in need of behavioral adjustment than Israel?

    As for your “everybody does it” argument — did your learn that in one of your PhD courses? Surely that was not handed down to you in the 60% of Jewish genes that are from those kitschy Italians.

    Kitschy — is that Sicilian dialect, or Apulia?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    States have come and gone, so what? Are you in search of the eternal abode? I prefer to deal with reality and make the best of it.

    The only thing in need of reformation is your undying love for two equally matched [and equally departed] clowns. Herr Schiklgruber who shot himself in gothic tradition, and that primping pipsqueak who ended hung upside down above a service station on the square.

    Which states are you referring to when blithely asserting "3000 years in their footprint" or something like that? Oh wait, it must be your adopted homeland n'est pas? Sorry but their movements westwards were squelched almost always by the Greeks and Romans. They did go all the way east to India though.

    Well certainly you are free to use all your powers to influence U.S. policy, why don't you? The state and it machinery are the products of majoritarianism - warts and all. So I don't see what your imagined obstacles are.....

    I am mostly Austrian plus 25% ME genetically [and U.K. culturally], so not a fan of overpriced Italian kitsch [don't take it personally], if you must know, my preferred wear are genuine articles made by Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes :-)
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  61. Actually America appears to be Israel’s servant.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval? http://www.unz.com/article/the-obstacle-to-peace/#comment-1548509
     
    Care to name a state created on principles of serially exploiting, then destroying, its selected superpower protector-state?

    It's "in Jewish DNA:" Jews must have a superpower servant.

    As Israelis learned after 2,000 years of Diaspora to think in sovereign terms anchored in the country’s geostrategic reality, they recalled that throughout their earlier sovereign history, in biblical times, they had always sought to make alliances with strong powers in the extended neighborhood to ensure survival. Not accidentally, many of the periphery states and peoples — Iran, Ethiopia, the Kurds, the Maronites — had roots in the Middle East.

    The ancient Hebrews had learned to develop, in the words of former Mossad head Ephraim Halevy, “a regional great power strategy.” During the days of the prophets, they turned toward either Babylon or Egypt.** In more modern times, World War I, a small vanguard of strategic innovators, the Nili underground, led the transition from an Ottoman to a British orientation. “This is embedded in the DNA of the Jewish people: it must always rely on certain regional and international actors.” Modern Israel’s founders also realized that a sovereign Hebrew state or states had existed in the Holy Land for but a few centuries of over 1,000 years of pre-Diaspora Israelite presence. This was a chilling warning to the modern state’s founders of just how fragile the Jewish state’s long-term prospects were. https://www.amazon.com/Periphery-Israels-Search-Middle-Allies/dp/1442231017
     
    ** The ancient Hebrews slaughtered the first-born of their Egyptian protectors/allies, stole their treasure and killed their leaders.
    The ancient Hebrews overthrew the leadership of the Babylonian (Persian) guarantor of Hebrew security, stole their treasure and slaughtered their key leaders, his family, and 70,000 of its citizens.
    Upon acquiring Palestine from the British, the not-so-ancient Hebrews bombed their headquarters and aroused enmity between the British and the Arabs until the British threw up their hands and left.
    The Jewish State relied on Iran for its periphery protection until Iranians claimed their own right to self-determination. Jews left Iran in a snit and have been gunning for Iran ever since, killing its young scientists, ginning up wars involving Iran then profiting from them; working through US financial institutions to destroy Iran's economy.

    Why should the people of USA expect any different treatment?
    Read what it says: "It is in the Jewish people's DNA . . ."
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  62. @Sam Shama
    [Yes, I cover that in the book. As you will learn, the UN partition plan was inherently prejudicial to Arab majority and in fact, carrying on in the tradition of the League of Nations Mandate, was premised upon racist colonialism and the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.]

    That's all I needed to know. Thank you.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets, and more; if you are looking for greater international legitimacy in "nation-building" you would be barking up the wrong tree. 1967 was a calculus entirely different, and shines a dubious light on the nation.

    "deconstruction" and "peaceful dismantlement" of the state, as Robin advocates [and you do as well?] is, to use a legal term, funny. How do you do it? What channels? What happens to the populations?

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets…

    No, the racist, colonialist premises of Resolution 181 and the partition plan’s explicit rejection of the right of the Arab majority of Palestine to self-determination is not “as good as it gets”. As good as it gets would entail respecting the equal rights of all parties. As good as it gets would have been for the independence of Palestine to be recognized and a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation, which is precisely what the Arabs proposed, but which was rejected both by the Zionists and their Western imperialist benefactors.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of "colonial racism" etc you toss around. Since I have no wish to be pulled into another quagmire of "discussions" I'll end it by observing the following:

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it. Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace. Aware of the Arabs’ past aggressions, Resolution 181, in paragraph C, called on the Security Council to:

    “Determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution
    .”

    , @iffen
    a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation

    Nothing like being the first one on the block to have a shiny new gadget.
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  63. @Wayne Pacific
    Actually America appears to be Israel's servant.

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval? http://www.unz.com/article/the-obstacle-to-peace/#comment-1548509

    Care to name a state created on principles of serially exploiting, then destroying, its selected superpower protector-state?

    It’s “in Jewish DNA:” Jews must have a superpower servant.

    As Israelis learned after 2,000 years of Diaspora to think in sovereign terms anchored in the country’s geostrategic reality, they recalled that throughout their earlier sovereign history, in biblical times, they had always sought to make alliances with strong powers in the extended neighborhood to ensure survival. Not accidentally, many of the periphery states and peoples — Iran, Ethiopia, the Kurds, the Maronites — had roots in the Middle East.

    The ancient Hebrews had learned to develop, in the words of former Mossad head Ephraim Halevy, “a regional great power strategy.” During the days of the prophets, they turned toward either Babylon or Egypt.** In more modern times, World War I, a small vanguard of strategic innovators, the Nili underground, led the transition from an Ottoman to a British orientation. “This is embedded in the DNA of the Jewish people: it must always rely on certain regional and international actors.” Modern Israel’s founders also realized that a sovereign Hebrew state or states had existed in the Holy Land for but a few centuries of over 1,000 years of pre-Diaspora Israelite presence. This was a chilling warning to the modern state’s founders of just how fragile the Jewish state’s long-term prospects were. https://www.amazon.com/Periphery-Israels-Search-Middle-Allies/dp/1442231017

    ** The ancient Hebrews slaughtered the first-born of their Egyptian protectors/allies, stole their treasure and killed their leaders.
    The ancient Hebrews overthrew the leadership of the Babylonian (Persian) guarantor of Hebrew security, stole their treasure and slaughtered their key leaders, his family, and 70,000 of its citizens.
    Upon acquiring Palestine from the British, the not-so-ancient Hebrews bombed their headquarters and aroused enmity between the British and the Arabs until the British threw up their hands and left.
    The Jewish State relied on Iran for its periphery protection until Iranians claimed their own right to self-determination. Jews left Iran in a snit and have been gunning for Iran ever since, killing its young scientists, ginning up wars involving Iran then profiting from them; working through US financial institutions to destroy Iran’s economy.

    Why should the people of USA expect any different treatment?
    Read what it says: “It is in the Jewish people’s DNA . . .”

    Read More
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  64. Noizpots says:

    Excellent review. I will buy the book ASAP. “The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.”

    Write it Phil. Who better than you to be able to relay these facts!

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  65. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG
    One step at a time, and by pressure on all fronts.

    Here's a reminder. On August 8 a case was filed in Federal court challenging the legality of U.S. aid to Israel.

    Lawsuit Claims Aid to Nuclear Israel Illegal Under Symington Glenn Amendments
    http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/news/200/lawsuit-claims-aid-to-nuclear-israel-illegal-under-symington-glenn-amendments/

    That aid should be stopped as I’ve repeated endlessly. It makes little economic difference for Israel, but just you watch the bleats that will come out of – Egypt, Jordan, and a whole host of others.

    Look I am unimpressed by these lawsuits. Many of these and other complaints have been filed in the past based on obscure draws on the legal code. Won’t go anywhere.

    You haven’t addressed any of the other questions I posed:

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    and what do you mean by “dismantlement”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Norway, 1905.

    "Peaceful dismantlement" is the mantra of those Rabbis that most other Jews love to hate. My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.

    You're not impressed with lawsuits because you're confident the Courts are fixed. This case isn't against all foreign aid, just aid to nuclear armed Israel. Since they don't need it, it's symbolic, and losing it would be very symbolic. Forcing the US and Israel to comply with the law would be a landmark precedent.
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  66. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus
    ah, Sam, not only do the shoes fit and function for digging in heels, they're useful for backpedaling -- the glorification/normalization of zionism is contrary to other positions you have taken.

    States come and states go: Italy was invaded, occupied, oppressed, rebelled, restored, re-invaded a dozen times or more. Similar things happened to Persia. Germans have been decimated by wars -- you should know that: Jews played a vanguard role in bringing about their destruction. They rose again, smaller bit of land, but still German.

    Why isn't it reasonable that a state whose existence has come about at the expense -- the devastating expense of most of its neighbors as well as hundreds of thousands of people in far distant lands who have been boonswoggled into financing and supporting it -- bleeding for it, paying for it -- why shouldn't such an unpleasant blot on the globe be subjected to reformation, with extreme prejudice if need be? After all, doesn't the US use its military might and financial power to alter the "behavior" of other states that have spent the last 3000 years in their own footprint, minding pretty much their own business until someone comes along who thinks their "behavior" needs to be changed?

    Can you think of any state more in need of behavioral adjustment than Israel?

    As for your "everybody does it" argument -- did your learn that in one of your PhD courses? Surely that was not handed down to you in the 60% of Jewish genes that are from those kitschy Italians.

    Kitschy -- is that Sicilian dialect, or Apulia?

    States have come and gone, so what? Are you in search of the eternal abode? I prefer to deal with reality and make the best of it.

    The only thing in need of reformation is your undying love for two equally matched [and equally departed] clowns. Herr Schiklgruber who shot himself in gothic tradition, and that primping pipsqueak who ended hung upside down above a service station on the square.

    Which states are you referring to when blithely asserting “3000 years in their footprint” or something like that? Oh wait, it must be your adopted homeland n’est pas? Sorry but their movements westwards were squelched almost always by the Greeks and Romans. They did go all the way east to India though.

    Well certainly you are free to use all your powers to influence U.S. policy, why don’t you? The state and it machinery are the products of majoritarianism – warts and all. So I don’t see what your imagined obstacles are…..

    I am mostly Austrian plus 25% ME genetically [and U.K. culturally], so not a fan of overpriced Italian kitsch [don't take it personally], if you must know, my preferred wear are genuine articles made by Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus
    “Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes”

    Hi Sam,

    No slick Italian loafers & ubiquitous off-the-rack, overpriced Armanis?
    Couldn’t agree more
    But surely
    John Lobb and Anderson & Sheppard?
    Question:
    Harvie & Hudson or Tunbull & Asser?

    To say nothing of Montecristo #1s from Robert Lewis in St. James.
    Fond memories from the 70s-80s.

    All the best.
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  67. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama
    That aid should be stopped as I've repeated endlessly. It makes little economic difference for Israel, but just you watch the bleats that will come out of - Egypt, Jordan, and a whole host of others.

    Look I am unimpressed by these lawsuits. Many of these and other complaints have been filed in the past based on obscure draws on the legal code. Won't go anywhere.

    You haven't addressed any of the other questions I posed:

    Care to name a state created on principles of immaculate justice, by wise statesmen [and journalists] sitting around a table sagely nodding their approval or disapproval?

    and what do you mean by "dismantlement"?

     

    Norway, 1905.

    “Peaceful dismantlement” is the mantra of those Rabbis that most other Jews love to hate. My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.

    You’re not impressed with lawsuits because you’re confident the Courts are fixed. This case isn’t against all foreign aid, just aid to nuclear armed Israel. Since they don’t need it, it’s symbolic, and losing it would be very symbolic. Forcing the US and Israel to comply with the law would be a landmark precedent.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one's fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan't tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy - with all its warts - her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    "Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!", I shall be reminded. "True", I should then respond, "and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it". Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should've had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the "JEW" flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their's is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf's Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.
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  68. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets...
     
    No, the racist, colonialist premises of Resolution 181 and the partition plan's explicit rejection of the right of the Arab majority of Palestine to self-determination is not "as good as it gets". As good as it gets would entail respecting the equal rights of all parties. As good as it gets would have been for the independence of Palestine to be recognized and a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation, which is precisely what the Arabs proposed, but which was rejected both by the Zionists and their Western imperialist benefactors.

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around. Since I have no wish to be pulled into another quagmire of “discussions” I’ll end it by observing the following:

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it. Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace. Aware of the Arabs’ past aggressions, Resolution 181, in paragraph C, called on the Security Council to:

    “Determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution
    .”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around.
     
    This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn't follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book. Phil Giraldi has actually read it and has found the opposite: "Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that...."

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it.
     
    Once again, Resolution 181 was not a "blueprint for peace", but a blueprint for war. The UN, like the League of Nations before it, in no small part helped to create the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Again, the Arabs were certainly right to reject the proposed partition, which, again, was premised on the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace.
     
    I don't know what "efforts to bring peace" you are referring to (again, the UN General Assembly greatly contributed to the conflict by seeking to accommodate the Zionist project by rejecting the rights of the majority population, a direct violation of the Charter under which the Assembly was operating), but this narrative of events assumes legitimacy of the unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel by the Zionist leadership on May 14, 1948. It had none. While the declaration did not define the borders of the territory they were claiming, it did falsely cite Resolution 181 as granting legal authority, thus implying a "Jewish state" within the area of the proposed partition. Yet, as you'll learn in more detail in the book, at the time the Jewish community owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine. The majority Arab population owned more land in every single district, including Jaffa, which included Tel Aviv.

    The "Jewish state" of Israel was emphatically not established through any legitimate political process, but by violence and the ethnic cleansing of most of the Arab population from their homes. Your characterization of the Arab states as the aggressors is belied by the fact that, by the time they managed to muster a military response after the unilateral and invalid May 14 declaration, a quarter of a million Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed from areas that became part of Israel.

    The UN, of course, like the British, stood by and watched the ethnic cleansing of Palestine unfold, watched as hundreds of thousands of Arabs became refugees as they fled from their homes for fear of further massacres like that at Deir Yassin or were expelled by Zionist forces, and did nothing to stop it. Some "efforts to bring peace"!

    Seems to me you could learn a great deal indeed by reading Obstacle to Peace; namely, how what you think you know about the origins of the conflict just isn't so.
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  69. Karl says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    The UN passed a resolution on 29 November 1947 to establish Israel and called for all parties to do their part to carry it out. The British Mandate terminated at Midnight 14 May 1948. The state of Israel came into existence at that point. The idea that Israel is an illegal entity is, to put it bluntly, a lie.

    The Arab neighbors of Israel invaded shortly after the state was established, and Israel was able to survive with little outside aid. Those same Arab countries were setting up to try again in 1967, and lost in 6 days after Nasser ordered UN peacekeepers out of the Sinai and started moving troops into the Sinai.
     
    This is all among the nonsense (i.e., standard mainstream media narrative) that I demolish in the book, i.e.,:

    * Resolution 181 neither created Israel nor conferred any legal authority to the Zionist leadership for their unilateral declaration of its existence on May 14, 1948.

    * By the time the neighboring Arab states managed to muster a military response, a quarter of a million Arabs had already been ethnically cleansed from their homes in Palestine -- by the time it was over, 700,000 Arabs were ethnically cleansed in order for the "Jewish state" of Israel to be established.

    * The 1967 was begun by Israel on the morning of June 5 with a surprise attack on Israel despite Israel's own intelligence assessing that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel -- an assessment the CIA certainly concurred with, having noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai and having accurately predicted and informed Johnson that war was brewing, but that it would be Israel that would start it.

    > having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai

    incorrect.

    “On 23 May 1967, Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage”

    as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond
    Karl, you say my statement that the CIA noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai is "incorrect". The facts are as I've stated them. Here's a relevant excerpt from the book:

    Indeed, on May 23, 1967, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented President Lyndon B. Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that, in the event of war, Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.” In a document titled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR [the United Arab Republic, as Egypt was then known] struck first.” The latter, however, was judged unlikely to occur. The CIA also assessed that the Egyptian military had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel’s military would have little trouble breaching: “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period.” Although the Arabs had numerical superiority in terms of military hardware, “Nonetheless, the IDF maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations.”

    The Mossad nevertheless relayed an intelligence estimate to Washington claiming that Israel would be outgunned. The CIA’s response was to inform policymakers, “We do not believe that the Israeli appreciation … was a serious estimate of the sort they would submit to their own high officials”; rather, it was “probably a gambit intended to influence the US” to “provide military supplies”, “make more public commitments to Israel”, “approve Israeli military initiatives”, and “put more pressure on Nasser.” President Johnson wasn’t buying it; he told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, “All of our intelligence people are unanimous that if the UAR attacks, you will whip hell out of them.” But it was clear to the US intelligence community that it would be Israel, not Egypt, who would start the war. Helms sent a message to Johnson on June 2 correctly predicting that Israel would likely launch its planned attack within a matter of days.
     
    Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA, had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai.
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  70. iffen says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    Resolution 181 is as good as it gets...
     
    No, the racist, colonialist premises of Resolution 181 and the partition plan's explicit rejection of the right of the Arab majority of Palestine to self-determination is not "as good as it gets". As good as it gets would entail respecting the equal rights of all parties. As good as it gets would have been for the independence of Palestine to be recognized and a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation, which is precisely what the Arabs proposed, but which was rejected both by the Zionists and their Western imperialist benefactors.

    a democratic government instituted under a constitution respecting minority rights and guaranteeing minority representation

    Nothing like being the first one on the block to have a shiny new gadget.

    Read More
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  71. @Sam Shama
    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of "colonial racism" etc you toss around. Since I have no wish to be pulled into another quagmire of "discussions" I'll end it by observing the following:

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it. Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace. Aware of the Arabs’ past aggressions, Resolution 181, in paragraph C, called on the Security Council to:

    “Determine as a threat to the peace, breach of the peace or act of aggression, in accordance with Article 39 of the Charter, any attempt to alter by force the settlement envisaged by this resolution
    .”

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around.

    This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn’t follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book. Phil Giraldi has actually read it and has found the opposite: “Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that….”

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it.

    Once again, Resolution 181 was not a “blueprint for peace”, but a blueprint for war. The UN, like the League of Nations before it, in no small part helped to create the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Again, the Arabs were certainly right to reject the proposed partition, which, again, was premised on the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace.

    I don’t know what “efforts to bring peace” you are referring to (again, the UN General Assembly greatly contributed to the conflict by seeking to accommodate the Zionist project by rejecting the rights of the majority population, a direct violation of the Charter under which the Assembly was operating), but this narrative of events assumes legitimacy of the unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel by the Zionist leadership on May 14, 1948. It had none. While the declaration did not define the borders of the territory they were claiming, it did falsely cite Resolution 181 as granting legal authority, thus implying a “Jewish state” within the area of the proposed partition. Yet, as you’ll learn in more detail in the book, at the time the Jewish community owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine. The majority Arab population owned more land in every single district, including Jaffa, which included Tel Aviv.

    The “Jewish state” of Israel was emphatically not established through any legitimate political process, but by violence and the ethnic cleansing of most of the Arab population from their homes. Your characterization of the Arab states as the aggressors is belied by the fact that, by the time they managed to muster a military response after the unilateral and invalid May 14 declaration, a quarter of a million Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed from areas that became part of Israel.

    The UN, of course, like the British, stood by and watched the ethnic cleansing of Palestine unfold, watched as hundreds of thousands of Arabs became refugees as they fled from their homes for fear of further massacres like that at Deir Yassin or were expelled by Zionist forces, and did nothing to stop it. Some “efforts to bring peace”!

    Seems to me you could learn a great deal indeed by reading Obstacle to Peace; namely, how what you think you know about the origins of the conflict just isn’t so.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn’t follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book.]

    First, avian species can be confusing owing to fervour, in which case the less we speak of logic in these matters the better off we shall remain. Second, ordering the book was in intention more a token of support and less a signal of any expected revelation: histories of my kin, knowledge of the state's triumphs, tribulations and failures, I concede to none.

    [tb contd....]
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  72. @Karl
    > having noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai

    incorrect.

    "On 23 May 1967, Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran from Israeli vessel passage"

    as per: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origins_of_the_Six-Day_War

    Karl, you say my statement that the CIA noted that Egypt’s forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai is “incorrect”. The facts are as I’ve stated them. Here’s a relevant excerpt from the book:

    Indeed, on May 23, 1967, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented President Lyndon B. Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that, in the event of war, Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.” In a document titled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR [the United Arab Republic, as Egypt was then known] struck first.” The latter, however, was judged unlikely to occur. The CIA also assessed that the Egyptian military had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel’s military would have little trouble breaching: “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period.” Although the Arabs had numerical superiority in terms of military hardware, “Nonetheless, the IDF maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations.”

    The Mossad nevertheless relayed an intelligence estimate to Washington claiming that Israel would be outgunned. The CIA’s response was to inform policymakers, “We do not believe that the Israeli appreciation … was a serious estimate of the sort they would submit to their own high officials”; rather, it was “probably a gambit intended to influence the US” to “provide military supplies”, “make more public commitments to Israel”, “approve Israeli military initiatives”, and “put more pressure on Nasser.” President Johnson wasn’t buying it; he told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, “All of our intelligence people are unanimous that if the UAR attacks, you will whip hell out of them.” But it was clear to the US intelligence community that it would be Israel, not Egypt, who would start the war. Helms sent a message to Johnson on June 2 correctly predicting that Israel would likely launch its planned attack within a matter of days.

    Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA, had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Karl
    > Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA


    tell that story to the longshoremen in Eilat who were laid off for the duration of the blockade.

    We will not trust our children's lives to CIA estimates.

    If you want to do that.... go for it.
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  73. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.
    Quite the racist moron you are. Come on tell us just where all those 12 million people disappeared to? Got any pics of your SS tattoos you can show us?

    Quite the irrational lemming you are.

    Jews say those millions went to enormous mass graves which they have not, cannot show us.

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    The massive numbers of so called “survivor$” are living testimony to fraudulence of the impossible ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’.

    The ‘holocaust’ storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
    Listen ash hole. I've been to Poland. I've seen Auschwitz. I've seen the crematoria. And despite your lies yes they have found more than one of the mass burial pits in Poland and western Ukraine. People like you are sad little people who never have and never will accomplish anything with their lives so you rant and rave about foolish conspiracies to try and draw attention to themselves. I know it must be tough going through life with an IQ if only 80 or so.

    So I will leave you with a quote from Alois Brunner, Adolph Eichmann's personal secretary. He escaped to Syria and in his last published interview before he died he was asked if he had any regrets. His only remark was "We didn't kill enough Jews."
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  74. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG
    Norway, 1905.

    "Peaceful dismantlement" is the mantra of those Rabbis that most other Jews love to hate. My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.

    You're not impressed with lawsuits because you're confident the Courts are fixed. This case isn't against all foreign aid, just aid to nuclear armed Israel. Since they don't need it, it's symbolic, and losing it would be very symbolic. Forcing the US and Israel to comply with the law would be a landmark precedent.

    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one’s fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy – with all its warts – her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    “Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!”, I shall be reminded. “True”, I should then respond, “and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it”. Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should’ve had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the “JEW” flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their’s is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf’s Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some
     
    Thank goodness! Sometimes the reading some of your comments elicited worry on my part. I was afraid you could be like some of the poor unfortunate conversos during the Spanish Inquisition. The ones who likely said things like, "Greetings my brothers in Christ. Why the excessive stock of firewood? Are we expecting a severe winter?"
    , @alexander
    Sam,


    If you do believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist as a "democracy" (warts and all) with a substantive Jewish majority, one where they can control their own destiny........How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    Do the Palestinians not also have the right to a "state" of their own ?

    Don't Palestinians have a right to build their own 'democracy' , warts and all, with a substantive Palestinian majority , where they can control their own destiny ?

    We understand that the collapse of the Peace process has ,for the most part, meant the collapse of the "two state solution", which ( in reality) is a euphemism for the dissolution of the state of Palestine and the triumph of a Greater Israel over all of Judea and Samaria ?

    Isn't that what it means ?

    If we are spending any time, here, being honest, isn't what we are all witnessing is the extermination of the state of Palestine ?

    Isn't that what is really coming to pass ?


    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Will the Muslim world, as well as the entire world community ever accept this ?

    Doesn't the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near "eternal" war ?

    , @iffen
    They are exempted from compulsory military service.

    Don't you mean prohibited from?
    , @Art
    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy.

    Why is there no Labor party in Israel – the one party that at least made noises about peace? Politics in Israel are controlled by Zionists and that means no peace. The tie to your vibrant Jewish democracy is hate for its non-Jew citizens and neighbors. That Jewish character weakness, extends also to each other. (Israel will implode one day.)

    Israel politics is just like American politics – no matter who you vote for – the outcome is the same. More power for the Big Jews.

    “Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!”, I shall be reminded. “True”, I should then respond, “and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it”.

    So you are saying that Israel does not need AIPAC and the ADL – that is total BS. Without the backing of the US government, Israel would be under total sanctions by the UN. No one would trade with it.

    Sorry Sam, but your comment is feel good poppycock sunshine BS – yada yada yada.

    Art

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  75. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one's fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan't tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy - with all its warts - her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    "Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!", I shall be reminded. "True", I should then respond, "and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it". Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should've had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the "JEW" flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their's is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf's Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some

    Thank goodness! Sometimes the reading some of your comments elicited worry on my part. I was afraid you could be like some of the poor unfortunate conversos during the Spanish Inquisition. The ones who likely said things like, “Greetings my brothers in Christ. Why the excessive stock of firewood? Are we expecting a severe winter?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @schmenz
    "The poor unfortunate conversos" who had lots of fun undermining the Church in Spain, coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government, growing filthy rich over the backs of unsuspecting non-converso Spaniards, and even enjoying a little frat party in LaGuardia with a consecrated Host and a young Spanish child.

    You can read it all in Walsh's "Isabella of Spain" if you want to.
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  76. Sam Shama says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond

    As I said, I ordered your book, but expect to learn little new information in light of the all too platitudinous charges of “colonial racism” etc you toss around.
     
    This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn't follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book. Phil Giraldi has actually read it and has found the opposite: "Given the intense focus and the passions aroused by the conflict it is rare to find a book or article that says something new but Jeremy Hammond’s Obstacle to Peace: The U.S. Role in the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict does just that...."

    The resolution recognised the need for immediate Jewish statehood [and a parallel Arab state], but the blueprint for peace became a moot issue when the Arabs refused to accept it.
     
    Once again, Resolution 181 was not a "blueprint for peace", but a blueprint for war. The UN, like the League of Nations before it, in no small part helped to create the conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine. Again, the Arabs were certainly right to reject the proposed partition, which, again, was premised on the explicit rejection of their right to self-determination.

    Subsequently, de facto on the ground in the wake of Arab aggression [and Israel’s survival] became the basis for UN efforts to bring peace.
     
    I don't know what "efforts to bring peace" you are referring to (again, the UN General Assembly greatly contributed to the conflict by seeking to accommodate the Zionist project by rejecting the rights of the majority population, a direct violation of the Charter under which the Assembly was operating), but this narrative of events assumes legitimacy of the unilateral declaration of the existence of Israel by the Zionist leadership on May 14, 1948. It had none. While the declaration did not define the borders of the territory they were claiming, it did falsely cite Resolution 181 as granting legal authority, thus implying a "Jewish state" within the area of the proposed partition. Yet, as you'll learn in more detail in the book, at the time the Jewish community owned less than 7% of the land in Palestine. The majority Arab population owned more land in every single district, including Jaffa, which included Tel Aviv.

    The "Jewish state" of Israel was emphatically not established through any legitimate political process, but by violence and the ethnic cleansing of most of the Arab population from their homes. Your characterization of the Arab states as the aggressors is belied by the fact that, by the time they managed to muster a military response after the unilateral and invalid May 14 declaration, a quarter of a million Palestinians had already been ethnically cleansed from areas that became part of Israel.

    The UN, of course, like the British, stood by and watched the ethnic cleansing of Palestine unfold, watched as hundreds of thousands of Arabs became refugees as they fled from their homes for fear of further massacres like that at Deir Yassin or were expelled by Zionist forces, and did nothing to stop it. Some "efforts to bring peace"!

    Seems to me you could learn a great deal indeed by reading Obstacle to Peace; namely, how what you think you know about the origins of the conflict just isn't so.

    [This is highly illogical. It certainly doesn’t follow that since I call a duck a duck, so to speak, that therefore I offer little new knowledge or insight in the book.]

    First, avian species can be confusing owing to fervour, in which case the less we speak of logic in these matters the better off we shall remain. Second, ordering the book was in intention more a token of support and less a signal of any expected revelation: histories of my kin, knowledge of the state’s triumphs, tribulations and failures, I concede to none.

    [tb contd....]

    Read More
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  77. schmenz says:
    @iffen

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some
     
    Thank goodness! Sometimes the reading some of your comments elicited worry on my part. I was afraid you could be like some of the poor unfortunate conversos during the Spanish Inquisition. The ones who likely said things like, "Greetings my brothers in Christ. Why the excessive stock of firewood? Are we expecting a severe winter?"

    “The poor unfortunate conversos” who had lots of fun undermining the Church in Spain, coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government, growing filthy rich over the backs of unsuspecting non-converso Spaniards, and even enjoying a little frat party in LaGuardia with a consecrated Host and a young Spanish child.

    You can read it all in Walsh’s “Isabella of Spain” if you want to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government

    It is my understanding that the documentation for this is lacking. That said, it would not be surprising, in fact, should be expected, considering the many documented instances of collaboration by other minority groups with the Muslim invaders, for example, the Copts in Egypt.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    As I thought that conversos became such long after any Muslim invasions I looked at the Wikipedia and Britannica accounts and I am still surprised by your implied chronology.

    Most Jews converted apparently after pogroms in Christian Spain in 1391 but were discriminated against anyway therafter, and even after the expulsion of the remaining unconverted Jews in 1492. As they tended to be urban doctors, lawyers and merchants much more than those of pure gentile descent it is not particularly surprising
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  78. schmenz says:
    Read More
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  79. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama
    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one's fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan't tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy - with all its warts - her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    "Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!", I shall be reminded. "True", I should then respond, "and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it". Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should've had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the "JEW" flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their's is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf's Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    Sam,

    If you do believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist as a “democracy” (warts and all) with a substantive Jewish majority, one where they can control their own destiny……..How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    Do the Palestinians not also have the right to a “state” of their own ?

    Don’t Palestinians have a right to build their own ‘democracy’ , warts and all, with a substantive Palestinian majority , where they can control their own destiny ?

    We understand that the collapse of the Peace process has ,for the most part, meant the collapse of the “two state solution”, which ( in reality) is a euphemism for the dissolution of the state of Palestine and the triumph of a Greater Israel over all of Judea and Samaria ?

    Isn’t that what it means ?

    If we are spending any time, here, being honest, isn’t what we are all witnessing is the extermination of the state of Palestine ?

    Isn’t that what is really coming to pass ?

    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Will the Muslim world, as well as the entire world community ever accept this ?

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama


    How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

     

    The 2SS is realistically dead. I would say that were it to be considered seriously, land swaps and a fund with ample resources are critically indicated. However I think the Pals would make a hash of it. Its a tall order.


    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?
     
    Alexander, I cringe at words like 'extermination'. I suppose worldview, save those held tenaciously by a small group of determined souls is rather fickle. As I have always stated, Jewish populations had prospered and arguably enjoyed its golden years under Muslim rule, though I hardly think the poisoned environment today, would allow a large muslim majority to cohabit with Jews in a common nation-state, thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

     

    Not necessarily.
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  80. iffen says:
    @schmenz
    "The poor unfortunate conversos" who had lots of fun undermining the Church in Spain, coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government, growing filthy rich over the backs of unsuspecting non-converso Spaniards, and even enjoying a little frat party in LaGuardia with a consecrated Host and a young Spanish child.

    You can read it all in Walsh's "Isabella of Spain" if you want to.

    coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government

    It is my understanding that the documentation for this is lacking. That said, it would not be surprising, in fact, should be expected, considering the many documented instances of collaboration by other minority groups with the Muslim invaders, for example, the Copts in Egypt.

    Read More
    • Replies: @schmenz
    Thanks for the reply.

    Actually, all the documentation for it is found in that amazing book I mentioned. When author Walsh was in Spain doing research he found a number volumes of books containing vital information that had never been read since the time of Isabella. He had to take his pen knife and carefully slit open the folded pages.

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.
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  81. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one's fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan't tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy - with all its warts - her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    "Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!", I shall be reminded. "True", I should then respond, "and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it". Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should've had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the "JEW" flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their's is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf's Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    They are exempted from compulsory military service.

    Don’t you mean prohibited from?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Minorities are exempted, but volunteers [there are considerable numbers and all muslim soldiers can take their oaths using the Koran] are accepted; indeed there are minority units for Bedouim, while Druzim and Christians serve alongside Jewish soldiers in many groups.
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  82. @Wally
    Quite the irrational lemming you are.

    Jews say those millions went to enormous mass graves which they have not, cannot show us.

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    But note that there is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    The massive numbers of so called "survivor$" are living testimony to fraudulence of the impossible '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers'.

    The 'holocaust' storyline is one of the most easily debunked narratives ever contrived. That is why those who question it are arrested and persecuted. That is why violent, racist, & privileged Jewish supremacists demand censorship. What sort of truth is it that denies free speech and the freedom to seek the truth? Truth needs no protection from scrutiny.

    Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Poland. I’ve seen Auschwitz. I’ve seen the crematoria. And despite your lies yes they have found more than one of the mass burial pits in Poland and western Ukraine. People like you are sad little people who never have and never will accomplish anything with their lives so you rant and rave about foolish conspiracies to try and draw attention to themselves. I know it must be tough going through life with an IQ if only 80 or so.

    So I will leave you with a quote from Alois Brunner, Adolph Eichmann’s personal secretary. He escaped to Syria and in his last published interview before he died he was asked if he had any regrets. His only remark was “We didn’t kill enough Jews.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    > > Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Disney world. I’ve seen a princess's castle . I’ve sat in a teacup that twirls around, fast. < <

    A twirling teacup and a princess's castle are reflections of a concrete historic reality just as much as Auschwich and crematoria are; all of them are constructed artifacts based on a fantastical narrative spun of a febrile if not demented imagination.
    , @Wally
    Lemming Joe loves his Potemkin Village of "Auschwitz".

    Actually my IQ was tested at 152, and yours, Joe?

    No one says there weren't labor camps and crematorium for typhus abatement, so what, Joe?

    The Allies had labor camps for Japanese/Americans, crematoriums exist in every town, small and large, so what, Joe?

    There is only the typical Zionist lies of finding mass graves.

    There is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Read the facts about the laughable & impossible 'gas chambers':
    Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

    see:
    Alois Brunner debunked here:
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9071

    Think you know what your talking about? Have an enormous 'mass grave to show everyone? Then do it.
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    Step up and be a man, Joe.

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  83. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I continue to be surprised to read about the “obstacles” to peace in Palestine/Israel. After more than one hundred and thirty years of Jewish conquest – crawling and otherwise – why would anyone think that the Jews came to make peace? They came to take over Palestine and that is exactly what they have been doing now for all these years. The conquest has never ended in all of Palestine west of the Jordan river. Israel is a colonialist settlement of a particularly militaristic and dangerous ilk.

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil. The Suez canal after all, was not built for the purposes of a leisurely boat ride but for the purposes of trade and military links between England and her empire in Asia. The acquisition and promotion of Palestine as a colonial settlement has harmed immeasurably and simultaneously, both its local population and the entire Middle East rendering the body politic of the African Asian congruent territories fractured, fragmented and politically and militarily weak states, and in most cases, ineffective vis-a-vis the Jewish state.
    This has always been the purpose of the presence of the Jewish state in Palestine located at the cultural, historical and geo-political crossroad of the region.

    What kind of a peace does the West have in mind? One thing for sure is the requirement that the 1948 expelled Palestinian population, many of whom still remain refugees, relinquish their natural rights to their homeland. A good beginning that is! And why? Because the West and the Jews want it that way.

    The current western framework of discourse concerning Palestine is incorrect, misleading and the proof is in the pudding – it has led to a dead end and it remains a dead end. For the Palestinians unfortunately this is not a metaphor. The powerbrokers could have done whatever they wanted to ameliorate the situation but of course, have not done so as it is simply not in their interests.

    The issue is not whether the actions taken by the US over the years have been good for the US citizenry, because they are not the main concern of its government. Its government has more important interests to serve, and serve them it does.

    To the best of my understanding the only solution is a dissolution of the Jewish state qua state, the recognition of the right of return to the Palestinians, the payment of reparations to the Palestinians and the possibility of a reunion of this part of the Middle East into Al-Shams one again.

    In the present constellation of power, this is a pipe dream. However, if the US loses its power, then the situation on the ground here will most definitely become other than what it is today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    Now those are comments with substance!

    While I have held this view for some time, I have never before seen or heard it expressed.:


    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil.
     
    Plus it's undoubtedly a haven for the international mafia, which, unfortunately for religious Jews, seems to have misappropriated the label so’s to play the victim card.

    There must be a reason that some things are never mentioned! ;)

    , @schmenz
    Thank you for this brutally honest evaluation.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    For want of sufficient interest in the subject it had not occurred to me to consider what the non humanitarian interests of the original financiers of Zionist settlement might have been. An obvious question to ask of course.

    A less general question is whether the local population was harmed by the original Zionist settlements? What is the evidence for that?

    As I understand it quite a lot of Arabs were attracted to "Palestine" by the business created by the Zionists. If so, are you saying that was harmful to "locals"?

    Styling yourself "dissident israeli" is intriguing. Are you Jewish or Arab or a mixture? :-)

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  84. schmenz says:
    @iffen
    coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government

    It is my understanding that the documentation for this is lacking. That said, it would not be surprising, in fact, should be expected, considering the many documented instances of collaboration by other minority groups with the Muslim invaders, for example, the Copts in Egypt.

    Thanks for the reply.

    Actually, all the documentation for it is found in that amazing book I mentioned. When author Walsh was in Spain doing research he found a number volumes of books containing vital information that had never been read since the time of Isabella. He had to take his pen knife and carefully slit open the folded pages.

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    I have bought it for my e-reader.

    I have to finish the book that I am reading now and SPQR is definitely next in line. After that I will give consideration to Isabella.
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  85. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Joe Martin Jr.
    Listen ash hole. I've been to Poland. I've seen Auschwitz. I've seen the crematoria. And despite your lies yes they have found more than one of the mass burial pits in Poland and western Ukraine. People like you are sad little people who never have and never will accomplish anything with their lives so you rant and rave about foolish conspiracies to try and draw attention to themselves. I know it must be tough going through life with an IQ if only 80 or so.

    So I will leave you with a quote from Alois Brunner, Adolph Eichmann's personal secretary. He escaped to Syria and in his last published interview before he died he was asked if he had any regrets. His only remark was "We didn't kill enough Jews."

    > > Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Disney world. I’ve seen a princess’s castle . I’ve sat in a teacup that twirls around, fast. < <

    A twirling teacup and a princess's castle are reflections of a concrete historic reality just as much as Auschwich and crematoria are; all of them are constructed artifacts based on a fantastical narrative spun of a febrile if not demented imagination.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
    You might consider a good psychiatrist.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Since "Anonymous" could be the pseudonym of more than one person it is surely reasonable to expect an honest commenter to use the Anon or equivalent moniker only for the kind of legitimate reason that our host outlined long ago. That would typically be to maintain cordial relations between academic colleagues when a dissenting view is being expressed: not when just delivering free wheeling insult.
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  86. @Mark Green
    What's uniquely problematic about the "special relationship" is its immense depth, its vast reach and its intense gravitational pull. This is no small matter.

    The Israeli lobby may be centered in Washington, but it's tentacles stretch worldwide. Moreover, Jews are--pound-for-pound--the world's most educated, wealthy, cohesive, savvy and influential sect. This makes The Lobby uniquely powerful. And 'unique' is, in this case, no exaggeration.

    Even the ancient Romans complained about their haughty arrogance.

    And for millions of Jews throughout the world, Jewish security is inseparable from Israel's. And Israel is on a world-class winning streak.

    Whereas other powerful and well-funded lobbies such as the NRA and the AARP are largely transparent and strictly domestic, the 'Israeli lobby' has no national boundaries. It also binds together individual identity with a group security in a fashion that is unparalleled.

    Toss in a race-oriented religion, supremely-high intelligence, historic grievance, economic power and stratospheric levels of ethnocentrism, and what we've got on our hands is a hornet's nest of entitlement, resentment and hubris. These are God's Chosen People.

    You may not believe it, but they do.

    And from the ashes of The Holocaust rose the downtrodden and the indestructible Jewish people. Innocent and suffering. Always innocent.

    That's the modern outline anyway. And it packs a punch.

    By contrast, Americans who identify as White are routinely depicted as 'racists' and scoundrels. Only Hollywood could manufacture and sustain such a narrative.

    If the Jews aren't the world's most glorious and cohesive tribe, then who is?

    Similarly, their cultural and political footprint is humongous.

    World Jewry (including Israel) constitutes the world's foremost superpower. The craven conduct of America's entire governing class proves this.

    The overriding influence of Zionism in the West goes a long way towards explaining why there is not one prominent public figure who will critically examine Jewish power at length or explore Jewish wealth and privilege openly. It doesn't happen. It can't.

    Plus, there's the opaque but vaguely recognizable network of shadowy and covert pro-Zionist organizations which never rest and which span the globe. Israeli surveillance, sabotage and intelligence-gathering is both revered and reviled. Jewish agency can be ruthless.

    America--and the world--has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding. This dangerous condition will not soon change.

    America–and the world–has a huge problem on its hands. Jewish power is on the rise. And it is unyielding.

    If the goyim would wake up and get a clue about how unyielding it is and what the attitudes towards them are, they’d probably perish from shock. I’d say it’s relentless to the point of psychotic obsession. It certainly is a phenomenon to behold.

    Sometimes I think the only hope for us untermenschen is their constant hatred for one another, but then I wake up.

    The inimitable and very worthwhile Uri Avnery does a fine job of describing the loathing in this short article.:

    http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1469209537

    Read More
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  87. @Anonymous
    I continue to be surprised to read about the "obstacles" to peace in Palestine/Israel. After more than one hundred and thirty years of Jewish conquest - crawling and otherwise - why would anyone think that the Jews came to make peace? They came to take over Palestine and that is exactly what they have been doing now for all these years. The conquest has never ended in all of Palestine west of the Jordan river. Israel is a colonialist settlement of a particularly militaristic and dangerous ilk.

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil. The Suez canal after all, was not built for the purposes of a leisurely boat ride but for the purposes of trade and military links between England and her empire in Asia. The acquisition and promotion of Palestine as a colonial settlement has harmed immeasurably and simultaneously, both its local population and the entire Middle East rendering the body politic of the African Asian congruent territories fractured, fragmented and politically and militarily weak states, and in most cases, ineffective vis-a-vis the Jewish state.
    This has always been the purpose of the presence of the Jewish state in Palestine located at the cultural, historical and geo-political crossroad of the region.

    What kind of a peace does the West have in mind? One thing for sure is the requirement that the 1948 expelled Palestinian population, many of whom still remain refugees, relinquish their natural rights to their homeland. A good beginning that is! And why? Because the West and the Jews want it that way.

    The current western framework of discourse concerning Palestine is incorrect, misleading and the proof is in the pudding - it has led to a dead end and it remains a dead end. For the Palestinians unfortunately this is not a metaphor. The powerbrokers could have done whatever they wanted to ameliorate the situation but of course, have not done so as it is simply not in their interests.

    The issue is not whether the actions taken by the US over the years have been good for the US citizenry, because they are not the main concern of its government. Its government has more important interests to serve, and serve them it does.

    To the best of my understanding the only solution is a dissolution of the Jewish state qua state, the recognition of the right of return to the Palestinians, the payment of reparations to the Palestinians and the possibility of a reunion of this part of the Middle East into Al-Shams one again.

    In the present constellation of power, this is a pipe dream. However, if the US loses its power, then the situation on the ground here will most definitely become other than what it is today.

    Now those are comments with substance!

    While I have held this view for some time, I have never before seen or heard it expressed.:

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil.

    Plus it’s undoubtedly a haven for the international mafia, which, unfortunately for religious Jews, seems to have misappropriated the label so’s to play the victim card.

    There must be a reason that some things are never mentioned! ;)

    Read More
    • Replies: @dissident israeli
    Actually some of the religious Jews ARE the Mafia. And yes, you are right. It is not by accident that the so-called "Balfour Declaration" was a letter addressed to Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschild were most definitely the leading international bankers at the time, that is to say in 1917. And they might still be. My thinking is that actually Palestine was promised to THEM, as bankers whose function is to producer credit at interest for governments out of thin air, through the privately-owned central banks which are linked through the Bank of International Settlement in Basel, Switzerland.

    Owning a country - Israel - provided, and provides them with powers no other banking family or banking concern has - until today. And it provides cover for whatever nefarious dealings they have - eg funding DAESH etc.
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  88. Art says:
    @Sam Shama
    [My allusion was simply an indication that it need not be violent. Transition to democracy, thus ending a Jewish supremacist state is, in many minds, an end of Israel.]

    Its important for a semblance of objectivity regarding the views of one's fellow commentators to prevail in these threads. It is in that spirit I had hoped, my positions on these matters would be reckoned by you, and others; and it is in that spirit I recognise your sincerity, Robin. I shan't tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy - with all its warts - her Arab citizens [distinct from Palestinians, but hold that thought] enjoy full representation in the Knesset [the Arab List arguably, has more influence than their population proportions would imply] , have full access to education, healthcare, employment and social security. They are exempted from compulsory military service. Now, Palestinians in the WB deserve identical treatment; but those are not the magical ramifications of calling for a dissolution of the State, a state which I daresay has been built and cherished by her Jewish citizenry.

    It is the unenviable side of the debate I assume here at the UR, but it is one that needs a voice. I am aware when I say that the nation has been built by her Jewish citizens, a cloud of witnesses will rise in opposition and precious few in favour.

    "Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!", I shall be reminded. "True", I should then respond, "and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it". Yet, were thriving states the creations of foreign largesse alone, we should've had a handful in our midst in the middle east, Lady Providence surely a better substitute for the foreign benefactor, and attaches not a string!

    I remain circumspect of the true intentions of some [not you], for all too often their masks had slipped and the tall tales of the "JEW" flowed effortlessly from their lips. Their's is the concoction brewed from the myths of Egypt and Persia, mixed with a heavy helping of Adolf's Weltanshauung.

    I reject it.

    Nor shall I tire telling that Israel has a vibrant democracy.

    Why is there no Labor party in Israel – the one party that at least made noises about peace? Politics in Israel are controlled by Zionists and that means no peace. The tie to your vibrant Jewish democracy is hate for its non-Jew citizens and neighbors. That Jewish character weakness, extends also to each other. (Israel will implode one day.)

    Israel politics is just like American politics – no matter who you vote for – the outcome is the same. More power for the Big Jews.

    “Israel has received $250b cumulatively over the years from USA!”, I shall be reminded. “True”, I should then respond, “and do take away the $3b/year and we will be the better for it”.

    So you are saying that Israel does not need AIPAC and the ADL – that is total BS. Without the backing of the US government, Israel would be under total sanctions by the UN. No one would trade with it.

    Sorry Sam, but your comment is feel good poppycock sunshine BS – yada yada yada.

    Art

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  89. iffen says:
    @schmenz
    Thanks for the reply.

    Actually, all the documentation for it is found in that amazing book I mentioned. When author Walsh was in Spain doing research he found a number volumes of books containing vital information that had never been read since the time of Isabella. He had to take his pen knife and carefully slit open the folded pages.

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    Extraordinary book. I highly recommend it.

    I have bought it for my e-reader.

    I have to finish the book that I am reading now and SPQR is definitely next in line. After that I will give consideration to Isabella.

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  90. @Anonymous
    > > Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Disney world. I’ve seen a princess's castle . I’ve sat in a teacup that twirls around, fast. < <

    A twirling teacup and a princess's castle are reflections of a concrete historic reality just as much as Auschwich and crematoria are; all of them are constructed artifacts based on a fantastical narrative spun of a febrile if not demented imagination.

    You might consider a good psychiatrist.

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  91. “Israel refused to recognize an Israeli nationality at the country’s establishment in 1948, making an unusual distinction between “citizenship” and “nationality.” Although all Israelis qualify as “citizens of Israel,” the state is defined as belonging to the “Jewish nation,” meaning not only the 5.6 million Israeli Jews but also more than seven million Jews in the diaspora.

    Critics say the special status of Jewish nationality has been a way to undermine the citizenship rights of non-Jews in Israel, especially the fifth of the population who are Arab. Some 30 laws in Israel specifically privilege Jews, including in the areas of immigration rights, naturalization, access to land and employment.

    Arab leaders have also long complained that indications of “Arab” nationality on ID cards make it easy for police and government officials to target Arab citizens for harsher treatment.”

    https://electronicintifada.net/content/lawsuit-challenges-israels-discriminatory-citizenship-definition/8767

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  92. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    Sam,


    If you do believe that the state of Israel has a right to exist as a "democracy" (warts and all) with a substantive Jewish majority, one where they can control their own destiny........How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    Do the Palestinians not also have the right to a "state" of their own ?

    Don't Palestinians have a right to build their own 'democracy' , warts and all, with a substantive Palestinian majority , where they can control their own destiny ?

    We understand that the collapse of the Peace process has ,for the most part, meant the collapse of the "two state solution", which ( in reality) is a euphemism for the dissolution of the state of Palestine and the triumph of a Greater Israel over all of Judea and Samaria ?

    Isn't that what it means ?

    If we are spending any time, here, being honest, isn't what we are all witnessing is the extermination of the state of Palestine ?

    Isn't that what is really coming to pass ?


    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Will the Muslim world, as well as the entire world community ever accept this ?

    Doesn't the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near "eternal" war ?

    How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

    The 2SS is realistically dead. I would say that were it to be considered seriously, land swaps and a fund with ample resources are critically indicated. However I think the Pals would make a hash of it. Its a tall order.

    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?

    Alexander, I cringe at words like ‘extermination’. I suppose worldview, save those held tenaciously by a small group of determined souls is rather fickle. As I have always stated, Jewish populations had prospered and arguably enjoyed its golden years under Muslim rule, though I hardly think the poisoned environment today, would allow a large muslim majority to cohabit with Jews in a common nation-state, thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Not necessarily.

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    • Replies: @alexander
    Sam,

    So basically the "Two State solution " is dead.

    But really what you are saying is ..... the State of Palestine is dead.

    Because we both know the state of Israel is very much alive, very powerful ,and more than capable of defending itself .

    It is really just one state, the state of Palestine , which is being eradicated .

    No?

    Hence the 'extermination' of the state of Palestine is REALLY what we are talking about,when we discuss the death of the "two state solution".

    Although you may cringe at the use of the word...it is the correct word to use.

    The state of Israel is systematically 'exterminating' the state of Palestine.

    or ....Israel(and its illegal settlement enterprise) has , more or less ,exterminated the state of Palestine in the exact same way the Nazi's exterminated the Jews ?

    And I suppose, quite tragically, Israel, in achieving its "greater state", has had to become everything it has always most despised.

    No?

    Isn't this the truth of the matter, Sam, however much it might make you "cringe"....... to say so?

    If its not, how isn't it?
    , @Art

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.
     
    Shama has finally shown his true Jew colors.

    He believes that the worlds Jews can get away with obliterating Palestine. “Not necessarily” says it all.

    Shama has been conning us all this time. His expressed sympathies for Palestinians were lies.

    He thinks his Jew controlled US government and MSM can surmount a backlash against his Jew tribe. That in the long run, people will not disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine.

    Never ever trust the words of a Jew.
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  93. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen
    They are exempted from compulsory military service.

    Don't you mean prohibited from?

    Minorities are exempted, but volunteers [there are considerable numbers and all muslim soldiers can take their oaths using the Koran] are accepted; indeed there are minority units for Bedouim, while Druzim and Christians serve alongside Jewish soldiers in many groups.

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  94. imbroglio says:

    Let’s assume the worst of Israel as Girardi always does. IAIF: It’s all…

    Are the two states to be geographic entities? If so, what land mass shall each entity occupy? Perhaps the U.N. or some international consensus will delineate these geographical entities based on… UN Resolution 242? The pre-1967 borders? Something else? And what are the proper boundaries of Palestine within which Israel will form a part and a Palestinian state will form the remainder? The Balfour map? The Sykes/Picot map? Biblical Palestine?

    Or are the two states to occupy the same land mass with Israelis being citizens of Israel and Palestinians being citizens of Palestine, two nations under one geographical roof, a Middle Eastern, pre-Pakistani Punjab?

    Both arrangements could theoretically work.

    What goes unsaid in these polemics posing as analyses is the belief shared by many, including some number of Palestinians, that Israel is an abscess on the body of Dar el Islam whose existence cannot be tolerated under any circumstances. The Palestinians may be the darlings of the anti-Israel crowd, but they’re not the darlings of their Arab and Persian neighbors. They’re caught in the crossfire of competing hegemons neither of which is the U.S./Israel and would continue to be caught in the crossfire if Israel were gone up in smoke. A Palestinian Palestine, with or without Israel for a neighbor and with America far away and no longer involved, may likely be a failed state from the get go, dependent, for its survival, on those who may not have its well-being at heart.

    And what about amnesty for the Israeli settlers who may find themselves incorporated into a Palestinian state geographically defined? Make it to the U.S., establish residence here for some time, start a family, learn English, become a Tejano or Calijano and you’ve become an American “on the ground.” Fine. Let’s see if there’ll be the same welcome for Palestinian Jews.

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  95. @nickels
    I am beginning to think the whole Neocon obsession with continuing the cold war against Russia even after its over is exactly because they don't want western Christians to link up with Orthodox Russian Christians.

    I share your supposition in that regard.

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  96. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama


    How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

     

    The 2SS is realistically dead. I would say that were it to be considered seriously, land swaps and a fund with ample resources are critically indicated. However I think the Pals would make a hash of it. Its a tall order.


    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?
     
    Alexander, I cringe at words like 'extermination'. I suppose worldview, save those held tenaciously by a small group of determined souls is rather fickle. As I have always stated, Jewish populations had prospered and arguably enjoyed its golden years under Muslim rule, though I hardly think the poisoned environment today, would allow a large muslim majority to cohabit with Jews in a common nation-state, thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

     

    Not necessarily.

    Sam,

    So basically the “Two State solution ” is dead.

    But really what you are saying is ….. the State of Palestine is dead.

    Because we both know the state of Israel is very much alive, very powerful ,and more than capable of defending itself .

    It is really just one state, the state of Palestine , which is being eradicated .

    No?

    Hence the ‘extermination’ of the state of Palestine is REALLY what we are talking about,when we discuss the death of the “two state solution”.

    Although you may cringe at the use of the word…it is the correct word to use.

    The state of Israel is systematically ‘exterminating’ the state of Palestine.

    or ….Israel(and its illegal settlement enterprise) has , more or less ,exterminated the state of Palestine in the exact same way the Nazi’s exterminated the Jews ?

    And I suppose, quite tragically, Israel, in achieving its “greater state”, has had to become everything it has always most despised.

    No?

    Isn’t this the truth of the matter, Sam, however much it might make you “cringe”……. to say so?

    If its not, how isn’t it?

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    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I'll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn't inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]
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  97. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Martin Jr.
    Listen ash hole. I've been to Poland. I've seen Auschwitz. I've seen the crematoria. And despite your lies yes they have found more than one of the mass burial pits in Poland and western Ukraine. People like you are sad little people who never have and never will accomplish anything with their lives so you rant and rave about foolish conspiracies to try and draw attention to themselves. I know it must be tough going through life with an IQ if only 80 or so.

    So I will leave you with a quote from Alois Brunner, Adolph Eichmann's personal secretary. He escaped to Syria and in his last published interview before he died he was asked if he had any regrets. His only remark was "We didn't kill enough Jews."

    Lemming Joe loves his Potemkin Village of “Auschwitz”.

    Actually my IQ was tested at 152, and yours, Joe?

    No one says there weren’t labor camps and crematorium for typhus abatement, so what, Joe?

    The Allies had labor camps for Japanese/Americans, crematoriums exist in every town, small and large, so what, Joe?

    There is only the typical Zionist lies of finding mass graves.

    There is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Read the facts about the laughable & impossible ‘gas chambers’:
    Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

    see:
    Alois Brunner debunked here:

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9071

    Think you know what your talking about? Have an enormous ‘mass grave to show everyone? Then do it.
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    Step up and be a man, Joe.

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    • Replies: @Joe Martin Jr.
    I don't engaged with the mentally deranged.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Your claim to a 152 IQ might be bad for your credit on UR but it could be just the right starting point if you wanted to conceive, research, promote and manage what David Irving and others have failed to do, namely the overthrow of the accepted Holocaust story. Surely you could go to the Iranians and point out that now they have their money back from the Great Satan they can afford to fund the overthrow of one of Zionism's supporting myths. And "here I am" you might say "with a one in a thousand + IQ and peer reviewed publications to back my claims as an evaluator of evidence I offer you the chance to overthrow the great Zionist myth for no more than $10 million (less than a reconnaisance aircraft) to fund my research team".

    So what would have to be read and followed up with whatever kind of investigation was appropriate?

    The Wannsee conference would be a big one and all its supposedly validating connections dating back to all the anti-Jewish laws and further to Mein Kampf.

    Then there would be the best stats available on pre 1940 and post WW2 Jewish population in Europe.

    All the transcripts of trial evidence, all known and relevant diaries on both (all) sides; transcripts of the recorded conversations of German POWs of the British.

    Tens of tihousands of personal accounts including those by prison guards.

    Orders for chemicals to IG Farben etc. Train timetables and records which were for apparently non military purposes.

    All the photos and accounts of mass shootings by or in areas controlled by the Nazis.

    There's a lot of stuff which needs to be overturned to destroy the essential Holocaust story. So why not send a prospectus to Teheran and start recruiting your research team?
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  98. @Jacques Sheete
    Now those are comments with substance!

    While I have held this view for some time, I have never before seen or heard it expressed.:


    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil.
     
    Plus it's undoubtedly a haven for the international mafia, which, unfortunately for religious Jews, seems to have misappropriated the label so’s to play the victim card.

    There must be a reason that some things are never mentioned! ;)

    Actually some of the religious Jews ARE the Mafia. And yes, you are right. It is not by accident that the so-called “Balfour Declaration” was a letter addressed to Lionel Rothschild. The Rothschild were most definitely the leading international bankers at the time, that is to say in 1917. And they might still be. My thinking is that actually Palestine was promised to THEM, as bankers whose function is to producer credit at interest for governments out of thin air, through the privately-owned central banks which are linked through the Bank of International Settlement in Basel, Switzerland.

    Owning a country – Israel – provided, and provides them with powers no other banking family or banking concern has – until today. And it provides cover for whatever nefarious dealings they have – eg funding DAESH etc.

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  99. skrik says:

    Given their predilection for ‘interventions’ (= illegal invasions) to murder for spoil, dissident israeli’s ‘geo-strategic’ ambitions of F+UK/US/Zs as part-explanation can be provisionally accepted.

    Evidence: 1st Zionist Congress, Pre-WW1 conversion of British war-ships to oil and the Gallipoli imbroglio (both Churchill), the disgraceful Balfour declaration, US “stupendous source of strategic power” and ‘mini-me-too’ French (i.e. Sykes–Picot, say).

    Given their predilection for lying and cheating, the ‘murdering for soil’ ambitions of Jews as part-explanation can be provisionally accepted.

    Evidence: Herzl’s coveting = dispossession by “expropriation,” Jabotinsky’s ‘colonisation by force’ and Ben-Gurion’s actual outright admission: “We must see the situation for what it is. … we are the attackers and the Arabs are those defending themselves. They are living in the country and own the land, …”

    Given the *non-semite* origins of Askenazis (self-converted ‘Judaic’ reffos from the steppes north of the Caucasus), the ‘ancestral lands’ and especially ‘god promised it to us’ memes are seen to be not just as some sort of ‘errors’ but totally cynical, filthy lies.

    Evidence: Turco Finn by race, *no* god.

    Then, ‘legals:’

    Land is ‘alienable’ but only by free and fair exchange.

    “A fair exchange is no robbery” + “Don’t touch things not yours” + “Thou shalt not steal” plus finally “Thieves may never prosper” means that the I/J/Z-plex perpetrators (heirs and successors), ditto accessories (living off the proceeds of crime (= all non-native residents in the ‘illegitimate entity’), criminal supporters (= rogue-regimes like F+UK/US, corrupt&venal MSM+PFBCs plus hasbarats, sayanim and other such trolls etc.)) to be arrested, tried then punished.

    As Mr Hammond wrote, UNGA181 did not apportion any land to any alien invaders but more, was refused consideration by the UNSC and so *is not law*. Also, those aggressive, unwanted immigrants only managed to purchase a miserable ~6% of pre-Herzl Palestine, mostly of poor quality at extortionate prices from ‘absentee landlords;’ the natives mainly refused to sell. Now, inalienable rights in UDHR:

    Article 3.
    • Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.
    Article 17.
    • (1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.
    • (2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

    Lemma: inalienable adjective unable to be taken away from or given away by the possessor.

    Refer also to UNSC242, inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war.

    Fazit: The Palestinian ELO/Os (= erstwhile legal owner/occupiers) *may not* surrender, neither their property nor their lives, nor may their land be improperly alienated = non-native interlopers to vacate their squats = leave. My suggestion: RoR+R*3 = Right of Return + Revest, Reparations and Reconciliation which roughly parallels applicable UNGA194 bits, usually re-passed yearly.

    Musing: As Oscar Peterson points out above, as long as the ‘balance of power’ remains in rogue-regime = criminal tyrants’ hands, no improvement can be expected. Therefore, the most important Q is: Where is the decent, countervailing (non-violent) force-for-good?

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  100. schmenz says:
    @Anonymous
    I continue to be surprised to read about the "obstacles" to peace in Palestine/Israel. After more than one hundred and thirty years of Jewish conquest - crawling and otherwise - why would anyone think that the Jews came to make peace? They came to take over Palestine and that is exactly what they have been doing now for all these years. The conquest has never ended in all of Palestine west of the Jordan river. Israel is a colonialist settlement of a particularly militaristic and dangerous ilk.

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil. The Suez canal after all, was not built for the purposes of a leisurely boat ride but for the purposes of trade and military links between England and her empire in Asia. The acquisition and promotion of Palestine as a colonial settlement has harmed immeasurably and simultaneously, both its local population and the entire Middle East rendering the body politic of the African Asian congruent territories fractured, fragmented and politically and militarily weak states, and in most cases, ineffective vis-a-vis the Jewish state.
    This has always been the purpose of the presence of the Jewish state in Palestine located at the cultural, historical and geo-political crossroad of the region.

    What kind of a peace does the West have in mind? One thing for sure is the requirement that the 1948 expelled Palestinian population, many of whom still remain refugees, relinquish their natural rights to their homeland. A good beginning that is! And why? Because the West and the Jews want it that way.

    The current western framework of discourse concerning Palestine is incorrect, misleading and the proof is in the pudding - it has led to a dead end and it remains a dead end. For the Palestinians unfortunately this is not a metaphor. The powerbrokers could have done whatever they wanted to ameliorate the situation but of course, have not done so as it is simply not in their interests.

    The issue is not whether the actions taken by the US over the years have been good for the US citizenry, because they are not the main concern of its government. Its government has more important interests to serve, and serve them it does.

    To the best of my understanding the only solution is a dissolution of the Jewish state qua state, the recognition of the right of return to the Palestinians, the payment of reparations to the Palestinians and the possibility of a reunion of this part of the Middle East into Al-Shams one again.

    In the present constellation of power, this is a pipe dream. However, if the US loses its power, then the situation on the ground here will most definitely become other than what it is today.

    Thank you for this brutally honest evaluation.

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  101. @Wally
    Lemming Joe loves his Potemkin Village of "Auschwitz".

    Actually my IQ was tested at 152, and yours, Joe?

    No one says there weren't labor camps and crematorium for typhus abatement, so what, Joe?

    The Allies had labor camps for Japanese/Americans, crematoriums exist in every town, small and large, so what, Joe?

    There is only the typical Zionist lies of finding mass graves.

    There is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Read the facts about the laughable & impossible 'gas chambers':
    Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

    see:
    Alois Brunner debunked here:
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9071

    Think you know what your talking about? Have an enormous 'mass grave to show everyone? Then do it.
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    Step up and be a man, Joe.

    I don’t engaged with the mentally deranged.

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  102. Art says:
    @Sam Shama


    How do you view the existence of a Palestinian state, east of the green line ?

     

    The 2SS is realistically dead. I would say that were it to be considered seriously, land swaps and a fund with ample resources are critically indicated. However I think the Pals would make a hash of it. Its a tall order.


    Lets go further for a moment and lets imagine that Palestine is fully exterminated by Israel ( for it seems no force on earth can restrain the settler enterprise, or remove it, once it is in place).

    How will the world view the extinguishing of Palestine, by Israel ?
     
    Alexander, I cringe at words like 'extermination'. I suppose worldview, save those held tenaciously by a small group of determined souls is rather fickle. As I have always stated, Jewish populations had prospered and arguably enjoyed its golden years under Muslim rule, though I hardly think the poisoned environment today, would allow a large muslim majority to cohabit with Jews in a common nation-state, thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

     

    Not necessarily.

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    Shama has finally shown his true Jew colors.

    He believes that the worlds Jews can get away with obliterating Palestine. “Not necessarily” says it all.

    Shama has been conning us all this time. His expressed sympathies for Palestinians were lies.

    He thinks his Jew controlled US government and MSM can surmount a backlash against his Jew tribe. That in the long run, people will not disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine.

    Never ever trust the words of a Jew.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* "disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine". What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    If you care to answer relevantly remember that the disturbance you were prima facie referring to was near eternal war.

    As I haven't studied the context properly I can't be sure what counts for you as the destruction of Palestine. There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps you mean that the descendants of the Arab people living in the British/UN Mandate Palestine before 1948** who are unwillingly landless and denied any rights within Israel will find it finally certain because of Israeli opposition that they will never have one or two substantial connected territories in which one or two independent political entities can prosper under their own good givernment. Is that it? Then who is going to maintain the eternal war at any level beyond what occurs in the occupied territories/West Bank now? Or is that level of violence on both sides what you have in mind? How does it compare with the situation in Kashmir by the way? Do you think someone other than the Indians and Pakistanis is going to disturb themselves because of that stand off which dates back to 1948?

    **You could take 1967 as an alternative starting point.
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  103. Lee says:

    There can never be peace between Israel and the Palestinians regardless of who the Palestinian leader is. Arafat stated to Bill Clinton after the Oslo Peace talks when 98% of what Arafat wanted had been agreed by the Jews he stated ‘my religion does not permit me to recognise Israel’. Why is this ? because the Koran states that once land has Muslims living on it, it becomes Islamic territory FOREVER.
    A year ago ISIS stated their next objective was to reclaim the ISLAMIC TERRITORY of the Iberian Peninsular (Spain)! QED

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  104. Lee says:
    @MMM
    "EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS!"

    That is very true, and you will never read that in the Zionist owned and controlled propaganda aka Mainstream Media, and phony alternative media.

    'The Obstacle to Peace' featured here is suspect because Noam Chomsky, gatekeeper for "Israel" and linguistic saboteur has endorsed it. Is it entirely honest?

    The world is waking up and finding out the names of what it is sick to death of -- what has made it sick. And they are everywhere.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPpybzN0cLo

    No, conflict starts against Jews but is ignored this hatred just grows until it engulfs everyone by which time millions have died. It is similar to the millions of Christians being killed by Muslims in Indonesia, Mali, Nigeria Somalia, Pakistan, recently Bangladesh and the World stays silent. There is enough hatred in our World without writing books that encourage it.
    Answer me this question: Gaza 2008 all the Jews ethnically cleansed, roads, houses and infrastructure left intact. a lot of financial Aid given to Gaza by UN/US/EEC. All utilities gas, water etc supplied by Israel. All the crossings open. Three weeks later the first rocket into Israel FROM Gaza.WHY??

    Read More
    • Replies: @richard vajs
    Lee,
    Have you ever wondered why if Israel controls Occupied Palestine's borders, why would Israel block food stuff like macaroni and building material such as cement but let in rocket parts? Seriously, Israel will not allow the Palestinians to have sufficient calories in foods like macaroni - (better they should be physically weak); or allow in cement -( better they should live in destroyed hovels like wild dogs); yet let in rocket fuel and steering components. Of course, the truth is that rocket parts are not let in. So where do the rockets come from?
    The obvious truth is that Israel makes these rockets and launches them themselves. A few IDF troops go out into the desert and covertly launch these crude rockets into portions of Israel where the rockets can do no harm. And then---- the Israeli officials (knowing the whole farce) determine that the Palestinians must pay (again). This is the cue for Israeli jets to go bomb the s-it out of unarmed Palestine and the cue to the Deadbeat "settlers" to go rip off some more land.
    I have relatives living in Israel - they are mooching, lying bastards without honor. They will eventually have the whole deal to themselves - and what a piece of justice that will be - having to live and fight with a--holes just like themselves.
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  105. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    Sam,

    So basically the "Two State solution " is dead.

    But really what you are saying is ..... the State of Palestine is dead.

    Because we both know the state of Israel is very much alive, very powerful ,and more than capable of defending itself .

    It is really just one state, the state of Palestine , which is being eradicated .

    No?

    Hence the 'extermination' of the state of Palestine is REALLY what we are talking about,when we discuss the death of the "two state solution".

    Although you may cringe at the use of the word...it is the correct word to use.

    The state of Israel is systematically 'exterminating' the state of Palestine.

    or ....Israel(and its illegal settlement enterprise) has , more or less ,exterminated the state of Palestine in the exact same way the Nazi's exterminated the Jews ?

    And I suppose, quite tragically, Israel, in achieving its "greater state", has had to become everything it has always most despised.

    No?

    Isn't this the truth of the matter, Sam, however much it might make you "cringe"....... to say so?

    If its not, how isn't it?

    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I’ll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn’t inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Hi Sam,

    I have been following your comments. I find it impossible to reconcile the following two statements by you.

    I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    thus my opposition to a RoR.
    , @Art
    The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    p.s. Once again Shama cunningly and hopelessly points to NO solution but extinction of the Palestinian people – the fascist Zionist Jew solution.
    , @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    In your comment #92, you make the point that in the present,(not some time in the future) the "two state solution" is realistically dead.

    Which we both understand as saying the State of Palestine is dead.

    Are you saying, now, it's NOT ?

    Is the point of this to be in 'denial' of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the "exterminator"or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the "exterminatee" ?

    Is this a modern day version of (Palestinian State) "holocaust denial" with the shoe now on the other foot ?

    Isn't it the gods honest truth , that nobody, today, is going to move even ONE settler out of Palestine (understood as east of the green line.)

    Are you going to ?

    Is King Bibi ?

    Is Prince Avigdor ?

    Is Princess Ayelet ?

    Is Queen Hillary or King Donald ?

    My understanding, as of yesterday, is that not only are the settlements NOT being dismantled , but actually fully "legalized", by Israel,(for whatever that's worth) and there are hundreds more in tow.

    So 'Greater' Israel has , indeed, exterminated 'untermenchen' Palestine.


    Is that correct , Sam ?

    (I suppose we could, each of us, encapsulate this in more flowery prose....but what for ?)

    And if it is the case, what is the moral to the story ?

    What should we teach our children ?

    You seem to muster an acknowledgement that Palestinians should have some 'rights' within the newly formed Greater Israel.

    But why feel that way if you cannot even muster the Palestinians 'right' to have their own 'state' ?

    Why not just let the permanent underclass of Palestinians roam around, stateless, homeless, and without any rights ,whatsoever ?

    Like a virtual army of the living dead ?
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  106. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I'll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn't inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]

    Hi Sam,

    I have been following your comments. I find it impossible to reconcile the following two statements by you.

    I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    thus my opposition to a RoR.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + "citizen" Arabs in WB currently.
    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    RoR if it applies to all potential claimants ex- [Israel+WB] will easily cause havoc.
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  107. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen
    Hi Sam,

    I have been following your comments. I find it impossible to reconcile the following two statements by you.

    I shan’t tire telling that the State of Israel needs new thinking regarding her citizens of Arab ancestry, that they deserve all the rights, privileges, and duties, bestowed on her Jewish ones.

    thus my opposition to a RoR.

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.
    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    RoR if it applies to all potential claimants ex- [Israel+WB] will easily cause havoc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.

    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.
     

    Once again Shama offers smoke - the Zionist government will NEVER give full rights to Palestinians. Israel would have to stop being Zionist.

    Here is Shama's solution:


    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.
     

    , @iffen
    I don't understand how a person could be considered to have "full rights" if they are unable to return to ancestral land from which they have been driven.
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  108. Art says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I'll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn't inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]

    The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    p.s. Once again Shama cunningly and hopelessly points to NO solution but extinction of the Palestinian people – the fascist Zionist Jew solution.

    Read More
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  109. Art says:
    @Sam Shama
    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + "citizen" Arabs in WB currently.
    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    RoR if it applies to all potential claimants ex- [Israel+WB] will easily cause havoc.

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.

    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    Once again Shama offers smoke – the Zionist government will NEVER give full rights to Palestinians. Israel would have to stop being Zionist.

    Here is Shama’s solution:

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Art,

    Still selling the same-old, same-old? Isn’t it exhausting?

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    • Sunspots;
    • Global Climate Change;
    • MIddle Age Hair Loss:
    • Takata Air Bag Failures;
    • Tooth Decay and Cavities;
    • The ZIka Virus;
    • Sink Holes in Florida;
    • Bad Breath;
    • Corns and Warts;

    Well, you get the idea.

    Remember, the Reichsminister expects all caps, and a lot more frequently.
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  110. Incitatus says:

    I wish I could say there’s a lot new in this article.
    • The US Government is in bed with Likkud Israel (big surprise there);
    • The US Press filters out the Palestinian view (again big surprise);
    • The US Press routinely adopts pejorative terminology (terrorist, terror tunnels, etc);
    • The US Press favors Israel and has long abandoned attempts to fairly portray the situation;
    • Peace talks are phony PR routines enabling irrevocable colonization;

    US aid to Israel is a nexus of US subsidies for US defense industries. Israel is our proxy. We furnish weapons and ordinance gratis. We protect Israel at the UN and elsewhere when they use those weapons. Should it be a surprise that Israel’s easiest choice in dealing with unpleasant neighbors and unruly occupied peoples is force? American subsidizes force – not peace. Why? Because it benefits the same companies that produce bloated, dysfunctional weapons like the F-35 and Littoral Combat ship.

    Colt Arms built a whole Hartford neighborhood based on weapons. The demise of the Plains Indians in the late 19C followed. Sound familiar? We’re subsidizing Israelis to do the same to the Palestinians. What a surprise.

    Want to reform Israel? Fine. Maybe reforming ourselves is the place to start.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Incitatus, thinking itself 'smart', goes: "Israel is our proxy"

    Cute! Where did u learn that, Chomsky?

    Try 'Zusa is Israel's bitch & a Zio playground', and you'll be a little closer to the actual facts.

    Having read a few of your posts I gotta tell you you are full of shit.

    But you knew that already.
    , @Sam Shama
    Every word true. I used to get rather choleric on this subject [the US-Israel arms nexus] when I was younger, but the years and a better study of history, cured my zeal; pity I lost that warm glow of self-indulgent piety though.

    My comment earlier this year:

    http://www.unz.com/imercer/trump-doesnt-need-to-talk-like-a-conservative/#comment-1363155
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  111. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama
    States have come and gone, so what? Are you in search of the eternal abode? I prefer to deal with reality and make the best of it.

    The only thing in need of reformation is your undying love for two equally matched [and equally departed] clowns. Herr Schiklgruber who shot himself in gothic tradition, and that primping pipsqueak who ended hung upside down above a service station on the square.

    Which states are you referring to when blithely asserting "3000 years in their footprint" or something like that? Oh wait, it must be your adopted homeland n'est pas? Sorry but their movements westwards were squelched almost always by the Greeks and Romans. They did go all the way east to India though.

    Well certainly you are free to use all your powers to influence U.S. policy, why don't you? The state and it machinery are the products of majoritarianism - warts and all. So I don't see what your imagined obstacles are.....

    I am mostly Austrian plus 25% ME genetically [and U.K. culturally], so not a fan of overpriced Italian kitsch [don't take it personally], if you must know, my preferred wear are genuine articles made by Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes :-)

    “Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes”

    Hi Sam,

    No slick Italian loafers & ubiquitous off-the-rack, overpriced Armanis?
    Couldn’t agree more
    But surely
    John Lobb and Anderson & Sheppard?
    Question:
    Harvie & Hudson or Tunbull & Asser?

    To say nothing of Montecristo #1s from Robert Lewis in St. James.
    Fond memories from the 70s-80s.

    All the best.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Incitatus,

    In fairness we owe this wonderfully diverting sidebar to our fellow-in-arms S2C. "Wherefore I touch silver to crystal: you Sir, are hereby recognised for providing a relief deeply sought"

    John Lobb, oh god of course. Couldn't do better. They used to make bespoke paddocks [equestrian] and I still have my old pair from a decade ago. Indestructible.

    Anderson and Sheppard. Ditto. "Kingsman: the secret service" shot in premises I believe. A 'must own' which I don't, and need to remedy that deficit.

    Harv & Hud or 'Bull & Ass? Both terrific but feet to fire I'd favour the former.

    Montechristo #1, paired with a [suitably young :-) ] McCallan or Balvenie? ! Heavenly.

    btw, do you perhaps know Widow Jane? Astonishing Bourbon I tried recently, and quid for quid, unbeatable.

    Cheers.

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  112. @Lee
    No, conflict starts against Jews but is ignored this hatred just grows until it engulfs everyone by which time millions have died. It is similar to the millions of Christians being killed by Muslims in Indonesia, Mali, Nigeria Somalia, Pakistan, recently Bangladesh and the World stays silent. There is enough hatred in our World without writing books that encourage it.
    Answer me this question: Gaza 2008 all the Jews ethnically cleansed, roads, houses and infrastructure left intact. a lot of financial Aid given to Gaza by UN/US/EEC. All utilities gas, water etc supplied by Israel. All the crossings open. Three weeks later the first rocket into Israel FROM Gaza.WHY??

    Lee,
    Have you ever wondered why if Israel controls Occupied Palestine’s borders, why would Israel block food stuff like macaroni and building material such as cement but let in rocket parts? Seriously, Israel will not allow the Palestinians to have sufficient calories in foods like macaroni – (better they should be physically weak); or allow in cement -( better they should live in destroyed hovels like wild dogs); yet let in rocket fuel and steering components. Of course, the truth is that rocket parts are not let in. So where do the rockets come from?
    The obvious truth is that Israel makes these rockets and launches them themselves. A few IDF troops go out into the desert and covertly launch these crude rockets into portions of Israel where the rockets can do no harm. And then—- the Israeli officials (knowing the whole farce) determine that the Palestinians must pay (again). This is the cue for Israeli jets to go bomb the s-it out of unarmed Palestine and the cue to the Deadbeat “settlers” to go rip off some more land.
    I have relatives living in Israel – they are mooching, lying bastards without honor. They will eventually have the whole deal to themselves – and what a piece of justice that will be – having to live and fight with a–holes just like themselves.

    Read More
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  113. Incitatus says:
    @Art

    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + “citizen” Arabs in WB currently.

    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.
     

    Once again Shama offers smoke - the Zionist government will NEVER give full rights to Palestinians. Israel would have to stop being Zionist.

    Here is Shama's solution:


    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.
     

    Art,

    Still selling the same-old, same-old? Isn’t it exhausting?

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    • Sunspots;
    • Global Climate Change;
    • MIddle Age Hair Loss:
    • Takata Air Bag Failures;
    • Tooth Decay and Cavities;
    • The ZIka Virus;
    • Sink Holes in Florida;
    • Bad Breath;
    • Corns and Warts;

    Well, you get the idea.

    Remember, the Reichsminister expects all caps, and a lot more frequently.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    Poor Shama – he was upset when I repeated what I heard the Little Jew hasbaras chanting in the basement of Hasbara Central -- JEW, JEW, JEW.

    I asked him why he was upset with the use of capital letters.

    As is most often the case, he did not answer my perfectly innocent question. (I think he resents someone asking him (a mighty Jew) any question about his behavior.)

    Poor Little Jew Shama – he is so smart – but when it comes to Israel he is always let down by Israeli behavior – they are always on the wrong side modern history. It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.

    , @Sam Shama
    LOL. I see see you are responding to dear old Art. I had clapped in irons and back to the 'CTI' gaol last week.
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  114. William says:
    @anon
    BS
    bigger fish to fry than Israel.
    dozens of conflicts in the world.
    all involve muslms. 1 involves jews.

    muslims ,whether they be palestinians , pakistanis, sudanese, or indonesians are incompatible with any other group.

    sudanese commit genocide in occupued darfur: 1 million plus killed

    indonesia commit genocide in occupied papua 500,000 plus killed.

    israel palestinian conflict 22,000 killed

    Many countries, especially poor, third world countries, commit barbarities. Savagery is not isolated to the Middle East. But there is a significant difference between the Sudan or Papua New Guinea and Israel. Israel is composed of Jews from around the world, most from the highly civilized and educated countries of Europe or from the U.S. or from Russia and Eastern Europe generally. Many Jewish scientists educated in major universities world wide now teach in world class universities in Israel.This is an advantage of enormous proportions.
    Another major difference is that the U.S. has made Israel a major military power and provides significant financial support. Many third world countries still struggle to attain a modicum of modern civilization, but Israel, highly educated and politically supported by the U.S. is a bitter, brutal, un-civilized barbaric occupier of lands conquered with the most modern weapons of war, all supplied by the U.S. Most Americans don’t know it, but I, along with most of the world, see Israel as a pernicious, war-like, aggressive little nation preening itself on power supplied by an ignorant America. Israel is the state that doesn’t fit in anywhere. Only Israel has to wall itself off against the rest of the world, relying on airlines for entrance and egress. Nothing lasts forever, and the bloody history of Israel demonstrates this clearly. Exile and finally destruction by Rome should remind us that history repeats itself. Sometimes a country may fatten on stolen lands or spoils of conquest, but eventually things change. And I am afraid that in the coming years, Israel very harsh reprisals willforce Israel to repent of its barbarism.

    Read More
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  115. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    All citizens of Arab ancestry != citizen Arabs inside the green line + "citizen" Arabs in WB currently.
    That should change. Offer full rights to all WB Pals.

    RoR if it applies to all potential claimants ex- [Israel+WB] will easily cause havoc.

    I don’t understand how a person could be considered to have “full rights” if they are unable to return to ancestral land from which they have been driven.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Iffen,
    Have you looked at the numbers and what that entails? Sure I could be disingenuous and tell you why not, let everyone that can claim ancestral lineage in [and honestly I've often thought "why not?"]

    Reality might intrude. Mexico owned some small portion of land out there in the west didn't they? Would you, could you, let them all be neighbours in your 'hood mon ami? [wouldn't that blurry your little peeps?]

    , @Wizard of Oz
    15 or even 12 years is a fairly common period for limitation of legal action to recover land. Usual exceptions include the plaintiff being under a disability so that time only begins to run when the potential plaintiff ceases to be under a disability - typically turning 18 or 21.

    You might say that the Palestinian refugees were and are effectively under a disability but, though I am merely speculating, i suspect that the correct analysis is that they could have sued in an Israeli court even without being in Israel (and is there any chance they would NOT have been able to engage an Israeli lawyer on a contingency fee?) but that the real problem was that they had no provable titles to the land. Very few people did under the Ottomans and I don't know how that may have changed under the mandate.

    In the end compensation for deprivation of their land would be the right remedy because the very existence of compulsory acquisition powers by governments shows that private ownership is not absolutely sacrosanct against the public good and it would be hard to argue that the public good was best served by taking the Jewish owned farm, with or without compensation, and dividing it 10 ways per stirpes amongst the descendants of the deceased Palestinian farmer who was dispossessed in1948.
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  116. Art says:
    @Incitatus
    Art,

    Still selling the same-old, same-old? Isn’t it exhausting?

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    • Sunspots;
    • Global Climate Change;
    • MIddle Age Hair Loss:
    • Takata Air Bag Failures;
    • Tooth Decay and Cavities;
    • The ZIka Virus;
    • Sink Holes in Florida;
    • Bad Breath;
    • Corns and Warts;

    Well, you get the idea.

    Remember, the Reichsminister expects all caps, and a lot more frequently.

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    Poor Shama – he was upset when I repeated what I heard the Little Jew hasbaras chanting in the basement of Hasbara Central — JEW, JEW, JEW.

    I asked him why he was upset with the use of capital letters.

    As is most often the case, he did not answer my perfectly innocent question. (I think he resents someone asking him (a mighty Jew) any question about his behavior.)

    Poor Little Jew Shama – he is so smart – but when it comes to Israel he is always let down by Israeli behavior – they are always on the wrong side modern history. It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Art: "It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD."

    Hey Art,

    That is correct,
    one of the zio's "new" tactic is to say things like: ' oh, so what if we took the Palestinian's lands? Human History is full of cases of conquest, yada, yada'.

    That was then, this is now. It so happens that when the zionist entity of israel was created trough wars of conquest, terrorism and ethnic cleansing, such things had already been outlawed by International Law.

    Of course, jew supremacists don't give a damn about International Law... neither does D.C.
    Perfect partners in crime.

    The destruction that we see in Syria now, is also to a decisive degree a result of zio schemes.

    The zionists are fully behind this whole synthetic 'War on Terror', 100% zio manufactured.

    These folks r 100% certified scum!
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  117. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus
    “Grenson Albert and Gieves and Hawkes”

    Hi Sam,

    No slick Italian loafers & ubiquitous off-the-rack, overpriced Armanis?
    Couldn’t agree more
    But surely
    John Lobb and Anderson & Sheppard?
    Question:
    Harvie & Hudson or Tunbull & Asser?

    To say nothing of Montecristo #1s from Robert Lewis in St. James.
    Fond memories from the 70s-80s.

    All the best.

    Hi Incitatus,

    In fairness we owe this wonderfully diverting sidebar to our fellow-in-arms S2C. “Wherefore I touch silver to crystal: you Sir, are hereby recognised for providing a relief deeply sought”

    John Lobb, oh god of course. Couldn’t do better. They used to make bespoke paddocks [equestrian] and I still have my old pair from a decade ago. Indestructible.

    Anderson and Sheppard. Ditto. “Kingsman: the secret service” shot in premises I believe. A ‘must own’ which I don’t, and need to remedy that deficit.

    Harv & Hud or ‘Bull & Ass? Both terrific but feet to fire I’d favour the former.

    Montechristo #1, paired with a [suitably young :-) ] McCallan or Balvenie? ! Heavenly.

    btw, do you perhaps know Widow Jane? Astonishing Bourbon I tried recently, and quid for quid, unbeatable.

    Cheers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    Soviet policy was to liquidate the educated Poles. At first, Soviet authorities called on the peasants, who were predominantly Ukrainian or Belorussian, to “settle accounts” with Polish landlords and take what they wanted. This led to a short but brutal period of murder and robbery perpetrated by the worst elements. At the same time, Soviet NKVD (security) officers shot many Polish landowners, officers, teachers, priests, judges, administrators, policemen, border guards, etc., out of hand, according to lists prepared beforehand. …
    Some Jews, especially young men and women with Communist sympathies, cooperated with the Soviets. They became prominent in the new local militia and helped Soviet authorities in hunting down Polish political leaders and administrators. These pro-Communist Jews were highly visible in oppressing the Poles.

    Historian Peter Stachura offers the following perspective on these events:

    Polish attitudes towards the Jews, however, may well have been negatively shaped, in the first instance, by irrefutable evidence that comparatively large numbers of them in Eastern Poland not only rejoiced in 1939 at the fall of the Second Republic but also welcomed with enthusiasm the invading Red Army. Jews of this type willingly became officials of the Soviet regime there, becoming involved in the widespread reprisals and atrocities that were committed against ethnic Poles, especially those of the educated and propertied classes. As Soviet Bolshevik commissars, believing that the day of their national and class liberation had arrived, these Jews often proved to be the most fanatical, intent on the effective de-polonisation of the Eastern Provinces.
     
    Apparently, for the British in 1939, "boots on the ground" meant they sent shoes to fulfill their commitment to defend Poland.

    Let's take a poll: what shoes did Sam Shama's Jewish fellow tribesmen wear as they killed Poles?

    1. Grenson Albert
    2. John Lobb *
    3. John Lobb paddocks (equestrian) for when the blood ran particularly deep
    4. Anderson & Sheppard

    Hugo Boss outfitted the Wehrmacht.
    Did Jews wore Gieves and Hawkes as they slaughtered Poles?

    1. Yes, in gratitude to Britain for putting boots on the ground
    2. No, Gieves & Hawkes is bourgeoisie; no self-respecting Communist killer would so disgrace himself.



    What shirt is most suitable for Jews on a fanatic killing spree?

    1. Harvie & Hudson
    2. Tunbull & Asser

    Should a fine Montecristo #1 be indulged before the slaughter, or after the blood has run?

    1. Before
    2. After

    Which malt whiskey should accompany that smoke after you've smoked your quota of Poles?
    1. McCallan
    2. Balvenie

    Finally, since surely no high-class Jew like Sam Shama would want to give offense, should a Jew consider it in bad taste to celebrate the slaughter of the flower of Polish manhood by drinking Widow Jane, an Astonishing Bourbon?
    , @Incitatus
    Hi Sam,

    Agree on Harvie & Hudson. Some of mine, perfectly serviceable, are over 40 years old!

    Never got into single malts I’m ashamed to say. Especially since UDV was a client years ago. Fun to show up in their office on Thursdays at 4 (product tasting time for staff and guests). They had some pretty exotic nectar, but I had too little time to capitalize on the educational opportunity.

    I’ll keep on lookout for Widow Jane

    All the best.
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  118. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen
    I don't understand how a person could be considered to have "full rights" if they are unable to return to ancestral land from which they have been driven.

    Hi Iffen,
    Have you looked at the numbers and what that entails? Sure I could be disingenuous and tell you why not, let everyone that can claim ancestral lineage in [and honestly I've often thought "why not?"]

    Reality might intrude. Mexico owned some small portion of land out there in the west didn’t they? Would you, could you, let them all be neighbours in your ‘hood mon ami? [wouldn't that blurry your little peeps?]

    Read More
    • Replies: @iffen
    Actually, we have had a mestizo family in the hood for a couple of years. They seem to be devoted family people; little Pepe never plays in the street unless a parent is right there.

    I think a case can be made that pre 1948 is different from post 1948. We can put the former in the forced relocations as a result of WWII. Although, at some point a line has to be drawn. Can we put the 1990 Balkans into that category? I think that it is difficult to justify the later and current WB dislocations.
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  119. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus
    Art,

    Still selling the same-old, same-old? Isn’t it exhausting?

    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    • Sunspots;
    • Global Climate Change;
    • MIddle Age Hair Loss:
    • Takata Air Bag Failures;
    • Tooth Decay and Cavities;
    • The ZIka Virus;
    • Sink Holes in Florida;
    • Bad Breath;
    • Corns and Warts;

    Well, you get the idea.

    Remember, the Reichsminister expects all caps, and a lot more frequently.

    LOL. I see see you are responding to dear old Art. I had clapped in irons and back to the ‘CTI’ gaol last week.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Art's relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq's Sunni or secular rulers didn't do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn't happen/couldn't have happened.

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  120. L.K says:
    @Incitatus
    I wish I could say there's a lot new in this article.
    • The US Government is in bed with Likkud Israel (big surprise there);
    • The US Press filters out the Palestinian view (again big surprise);
    • The US Press routinely adopts pejorative terminology (terrorist, terror tunnels, etc);
    • The US Press favors Israel and has long abandoned attempts to fairly portray the situation;
    • Peace talks are phony PR routines enabling irrevocable colonization;

    US aid to Israel is a nexus of US subsidies for US defense industries. Israel is our proxy. We furnish weapons and ordinance gratis. We protect Israel at the UN and elsewhere when they use those weapons. Should it be a surprise that Israel's easiest choice in dealing with unpleasant neighbors and unruly occupied peoples is force? American subsidizes force - not peace. Why? Because it benefits the same companies that produce bloated, dysfunctional weapons like the F-35 and Littoral Combat ship.

    Colt Arms built a whole Hartford neighborhood based on weapons. The demise of the Plains Indians in the late 19C followed. Sound familiar? We’re subsidizing Israelis to do the same to the Palestinians. What a surprise.

    Want to reform Israel? Fine. Maybe reforming ourselves is the place to start.

    Incitatus, thinking itself ‘smart’, goes: “Israel is our proxy”

    Cute! Where did u learn that, Chomsky?

    Try ‘Zusa is Israel’s bitch & a Zio playground’, and you’ll be a little closer to the actual facts.

    Having read a few of your posts I gotta tell you you are full of shit.

    But you knew that already.

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    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Ah, the reptilian L.K slithers into view.

    I’m sorry I’ve disappointed you. I’m a great fan of yours. You’ve been quite muted lately. Bund meetings keeping you too busy? White sheets and hood at the cleaners? Cutting timber for cross burning taking most of your time?

    I congratulate you on such a clear demonstration of the inverse relationship between hate and brains - you’re amply endowed with the former and not much of the latter.

    But you knew that already.
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  121. @Sam Shama
    Hi Incitatus,

    In fairness we owe this wonderfully diverting sidebar to our fellow-in-arms S2C. "Wherefore I touch silver to crystal: you Sir, are hereby recognised for providing a relief deeply sought"

    John Lobb, oh god of course. Couldn't do better. They used to make bespoke paddocks [equestrian] and I still have my old pair from a decade ago. Indestructible.

    Anderson and Sheppard. Ditto. "Kingsman: the secret service" shot in premises I believe. A 'must own' which I don't, and need to remedy that deficit.

    Harv & Hud or 'Bull & Ass? Both terrific but feet to fire I'd favour the former.

    Montechristo #1, paired with a [suitably young :-) ] McCallan or Balvenie? ! Heavenly.

    btw, do you perhaps know Widow Jane? Astonishing Bourbon I tried recently, and quid for quid, unbeatable.

    Cheers.

    Soviet policy was to liquidate the educated Poles. At first, Soviet authorities called on the peasants, who were predominantly Ukrainian or Belorussian, to “settle accounts” with Polish landlords and take what they wanted. This led to a short but brutal period of murder and robbery perpetrated by the worst elements. At the same time, Soviet NKVD (security) officers shot many Polish landowners, officers, teachers, priests, judges, administrators, policemen, border guards, etc., out of hand, according to lists prepared beforehand. …
    Some Jews, especially young men and women with Communist sympathies, cooperated with the Soviets. They became prominent in the new local militia and helped Soviet authorities in hunting down Polish political leaders and administrators. These pro-Communist Jews were highly visible in oppressing the Poles.

    Historian Peter Stachura offers the following perspective on these events:

    Polish attitudes towards the Jews, however, may well have been negatively shaped, in the first instance, by irrefutable evidence that comparatively large numbers of them in Eastern Poland not only rejoiced in 1939 at the fall of the Second Republic but also welcomed with enthusiasm the invading Red Army. Jews of this type willingly became officials of the Soviet regime there, becoming involved in the widespread reprisals and atrocities that were committed against ethnic Poles, especially those of the educated and propertied classes. As Soviet Bolshevik commissars, believing that the day of their national and class liberation had arrived, these Jews often proved to be the most fanatical, intent on the effective de-polonisation of the Eastern Provinces.

    Apparently, for the British in 1939, “boots on the ground” meant they sent shoes to fulfill their commitment to defend Poland.

    Let’s take a poll: what shoes did Sam Shama’s Jewish fellow tribesmen wear as they killed Poles?

    1. Grenson Albert
    2. John Lobb *
    3. John Lobb paddocks (equestrian) for when the blood ran particularly deep
    4. Anderson & Sheppard

    Hugo Boss outfitted the Wehrmacht.
    Did Jews wore Gieves and Hawkes as they slaughtered Poles?

    1. Yes, in gratitude to Britain for putting boots on the ground
    2. No, Gieves & Hawkes is bourgeoisie; no self-respecting Communist killer would so disgrace himself.

    What shirt is most suitable for Jews on a fanatic killing spree?

    1. Harvie & Hudson
    2. Tunbull & Asser

    Should a fine Montecristo #1 be indulged before the slaughter, or after the blood has run?

    1. Before
    2. After

    Which malt whiskey should accompany that smoke after you’ve smoked your quota of Poles?
    1. McCallan
    2. Balvenie

    Finally, since surely no high-class Jew like Sam Shama would want to give offense, should a Jew consider it in bad taste to celebrate the slaughter of the flower of Polish manhood by drinking Widow Jane, an Astonishing Bourbon?

    Read More
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  122. L.K says:
    @Art
    How about some new material? How about JEWS, JEWS, JEWS are responsible for:

    Poor Shama – he was upset when I repeated what I heard the Little Jew hasbaras chanting in the basement of Hasbara Central -- JEW, JEW, JEW.

    I asked him why he was upset with the use of capital letters.

    As is most often the case, he did not answer my perfectly innocent question. (I think he resents someone asking him (a mighty Jew) any question about his behavior.)

    Poor Little Jew Shama – he is so smart – but when it comes to Israel he is always let down by Israeli behavior – they are always on the wrong side modern history. It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.

    Art: “It is hard to defend 3,000 BC behavior in the year 2,016 AD.”

    Hey Art,

    That is correct,
    one of the zio’s “new” tactic is to say things like: ‘ oh, so what if we took the Palestinian’s lands? Human History is full of cases of conquest, yada, yada’.

    That was then, this is now. It so happens that when the zionist entity of israel was created trough wars of conquest, terrorism and ethnic cleansing, such things had already been outlawed by International Law.

    Of course, jew supremacists don’t give a damn about International Law… neither does D.C.
    Perfect partners in crime.

    The destruction that we see in Syria now, is also to a decisive degree a result of zio schemes.

    The zionists are fully behind this whole synthetic ‘War on Terror’, 100% zio manufactured.

    These folks r 100% certified scum!

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  123. L.K says:

    P.Giraldi wrote:

    The only thing still missing is an in-depth exploration of the actual damage that Israel has done to the United States with its spying, technology theft, subornation of congress and generally parasitic behavior. I might write that one.

    You may have missed the work done by Grant F. Smith:

    Spy Trade: How Israel’s Lobby Undermines America’s Economy

    https://www.amazon.com/Spy-Trade-Israels-Undermines-Americas/dp/0976443716/ref=la_B001JRXLHM_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472790089&sr=1-3

    In the midst of both the Iran-Contra affair and the Jonathan Pollard espionage incident, the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) and the Israeli embassy conducted a spectacular clandestine operation against American industries and workers; it has so far cost the US economy $71 billion and a hundred thousand jobs each year by shutting down or diverting US exports. More than a dissection of the tactics used by Israel and its lobby to evade justice, Spy Trade provides strategies for ending criminal immunity and restoring American governance.

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  124. @Art

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?

    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.
     
    Shama has finally shown his true Jew colors.

    He believes that the worlds Jews can get away with obliterating Palestine. “Not necessarily” says it all.

    Shama has been conning us all this time. His expressed sympathies for Palestinians were lies.

    He thinks his Jew controlled US government and MSM can surmount a backlash against his Jew tribe. That in the long run, people will not disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine.

    Never ever trust the words of a Jew.

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    If you care to answer relevantly remember that the disturbance you were prima facie referring to was near eternal war.

    As I haven’t studied the context properly I can’t be sure what counts for you as the destruction of Palestine. There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps you mean that the descendants of the Arab people living in the British/UN Mandate Palestine before 1948** who are unwillingly landless and denied any rights within Israel will find it finally certain because of Israeli opposition that they will never have one or two substantial connected territories in which one or two independent political entities can prosper under their own good givernment. Is that it? Then who is going to maintain the eternal war at any level beyond what occurs in the occupied territories/West Bank now? Or is that level of violence on both sides what you have in mind? How does it compare with the situation in Kashmir by the way? Do you think someone other than the Indians and Pakistanis is going to disturb themselves because of that stand off which dates back to 1948?

    **You could take 1967 as an alternative starting point.

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    • Replies: @Art
    There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire.

    Hey Wiz,

    Weasel words.

    Here are the realities of your non-people - of your people with no identity.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv's use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists.


    more:

    https://vimeo.com/86575949

     

    Tell us jerk --- who’s children are being tortured?

    7,000,000,000 people say they are Palestinian.

    Can you see no wrong - are you human - do you Jew share any morals with humanity?

    Art
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  125. @Wally
    Lemming Joe loves his Potemkin Village of "Auschwitz".

    Actually my IQ was tested at 152, and yours, Joe?

    No one says there weren't labor camps and crematorium for typhus abatement, so what, Joe?

    The Allies had labor camps for Japanese/Americans, crematoriums exist in every town, small and large, so what, Joe?

    There is only the typical Zionist lies of finding mass graves.

    There is not a single verifiable excavated mass grave that can actually be SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    Read the facts about the laughable & impossible 'gas chambers':
    Cyanide Chemistry at Auschwitz
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4111

    see:
    Alois Brunner debunked here:
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9071

    Think you know what your talking about? Have an enormous 'mass grave to show everyone? Then do it.
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    Step up and be a man, Joe.

    Your claim to a 152 IQ might be bad for your credit on UR but it could be just the right starting point if you wanted to conceive, research, promote and manage what David Irving and others have failed to do, namely the overthrow of the accepted Holocaust story. Surely you could go to the Iranians and point out that now they have their money back from the Great Satan they can afford to fund the overthrow of one of Zionism’s supporting myths. And “here I am” you might say “with a one in a thousand + IQ and peer reviewed publications to back my claims as an evaluator of evidence I offer you the chance to overthrow the great Zionist myth for no more than $10 million (less than a reconnaisance aircraft) to fund my research team”.

    So what would have to be read and followed up with whatever kind of investigation was appropriate?

    The Wannsee conference would be a big one and all its supposedly validating connections dating back to all the anti-Jewish laws and further to Mein Kampf.

    Then there would be the best stats available on pre 1940 and post WW2 Jewish population in Europe.

    All the transcripts of trial evidence, all known and relevant diaries on both (all) sides; transcripts of the recorded conversations of German POWs of the British.

    Tens of tihousands of personal accounts including those by prison guards.

    Orders for chemicals to IG Farben etc. Train timetables and records which were for apparently non military purposes.

    All the photos and accounts of mass shootings by or in areas controlled by the Nazis.

    There’s a lot of stuff which needs to be overturned to destroy the essential Holocaust story. So why not send a prospectus to Teheran and start recruiting your research team?

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    • Replies: @Wally
    Laughable nonsense.

    Each & every one of your slimy Zionist manufactured points has been debunked in spades, but you haven't the balls to debate. You're a coward.

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.


    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     

    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.
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  126. @Anonymous
    I continue to be surprised to read about the "obstacles" to peace in Palestine/Israel. After more than one hundred and thirty years of Jewish conquest - crawling and otherwise - why would anyone think that the Jews came to make peace? They came to take over Palestine and that is exactly what they have been doing now for all these years. The conquest has never ended in all of Palestine west of the Jordan river. Israel is a colonialist settlement of a particularly militaristic and dangerous ilk.

    The Jews came to Palestine as a bridgehead for geo-strategic interests, trade and banking and control of the natural resource of the region, oil. The Suez canal after all, was not built for the purposes of a leisurely boat ride but for the purposes of trade and military links between England and her empire in Asia. The acquisition and promotion of Palestine as a colonial settlement has harmed immeasurably and simultaneously, both its local population and the entire Middle East rendering the body politic of the African Asian congruent territories fractured, fragmented and politically and militarily weak states, and in most cases, ineffective vis-a-vis the Jewish state.
    This has always been the purpose of the presence of the Jewish state in Palestine located at the cultural, historical and geo-political crossroad of the region.

    What kind of a peace does the West have in mind? One thing for sure is the requirement that the 1948 expelled Palestinian population, many of whom still remain refugees, relinquish their natural rights to their homeland. A good beginning that is! And why? Because the West and the Jews want it that way.

    The current western framework of discourse concerning Palestine is incorrect, misleading and the proof is in the pudding - it has led to a dead end and it remains a dead end. For the Palestinians unfortunately this is not a metaphor. The powerbrokers could have done whatever they wanted to ameliorate the situation but of course, have not done so as it is simply not in their interests.

    The issue is not whether the actions taken by the US over the years have been good for the US citizenry, because they are not the main concern of its government. Its government has more important interests to serve, and serve them it does.

    To the best of my understanding the only solution is a dissolution of the Jewish state qua state, the recognition of the right of return to the Palestinians, the payment of reparations to the Palestinians and the possibility of a reunion of this part of the Middle East into Al-Shams one again.

    In the present constellation of power, this is a pipe dream. However, if the US loses its power, then the situation on the ground here will most definitely become other than what it is today.

    For want of sufficient interest in the subject it had not occurred to me to consider what the non humanitarian interests of the original financiers of Zionist settlement might have been. An obvious question to ask of course.

    A less general question is whether the local population was harmed by the original Zionist settlements? What is the evidence for that?

    As I understand it quite a lot of Arabs were attracted to “Palestine” by the business created by the Zionists. If so, are you saying that was harmful to “locals”?

    Styling yourself “dissident israeli” is intriguing. Are you Jewish or Arab or a mixture? :-)

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  127. @Anonymous
    > > Listen ash hole. I’ve been to Disney world. I’ve seen a princess's castle . I’ve sat in a teacup that twirls around, fast. < <

    A twirling teacup and a princess's castle are reflections of a concrete historic reality just as much as Auschwich and crematoria are; all of them are constructed artifacts based on a fantastical narrative spun of a febrile if not demented imagination.

    Since “Anonymous” could be the pseudonym of more than one person it is surely reasonable to expect an honest commenter to use the Anon or equivalent moniker only for the kind of legitimate reason that our host outlined long ago. That would typically be to maintain cordial relations between academic colleagues when a dissenting view is being expressed: not when just delivering free wheeling insult.

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  128. @schmenz
    "The poor unfortunate conversos" who had lots of fun undermining the Church in Spain, coordinating with Muslim invaders, committing treason against the Spanish government, growing filthy rich over the backs of unsuspecting non-converso Spaniards, and even enjoying a little frat party in LaGuardia with a consecrated Host and a young Spanish child.

    You can read it all in Walsh's "Isabella of Spain" if you want to.

    As I thought that conversos became such long after any Muslim invasions I looked at the Wikipedia and Britannica accounts and I am still surprised by your implied chronology.

    Most Jews converted apparently after pogroms in Christian Spain in 1391 but were discriminated against anyway therafter, and even after the expulsion of the remaining unconverted Jews in 1492. As they tended to be urban doctors, lawyers and merchants much more than those of pure gentile descent it is not particularly surprising

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    • Replies: @schmenz
    Relying on Wikipedia is probably not the best idea if you want cold, hard historical facts. In the world of Wikipedia the Jews are always suffering pogroms and their persecutors are always Christians. History is not so simple as that. Better to rely on the work of men who would spend literally years digging out the facts.

    Walsh isn't the only author who has dispelled the infamous Black Legend against Spain but he is certainly one of the most thorough.
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  129. @nickels
    There will be no peace until western Catholics ally with Russian Orthodoxy and forcibly remove the Hebrewites from the land of the saviour, reinstate Koine Greek and establish the rule of a united Catholic/Orthodox society in the Holy Lands.

    Is that the same as saying that it is 99.99 per cent certain that there will be no peace or merely 99 per cent certain?

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  130. @TJM
    WHAT, "one conflict involves Jews", in your Zionist dreams!

    EVERY CONFLICT INVOLVES JEWS! Look at the filth behind Ukraine, Gloria Nuland and her filthy Zionist Husband Robert Kagan, The oligarchs who push for that conflict, George Soros and Igor Kolomoisky, both Zionist Jews.

    AIPAC demanded America attack Iraq, and demanded we attack Syria, Libya and Iran.

    Council of Foreign relation, the Atlantic Group, Wilson Center, AIPAC, J-Street, American Enterprise Institute, The Brookings Institute...and on and on ALL ZIONIST JEW organizations that push for war around the world.

    As for Palestinians you Zionist freak, are the ones being persecuted, the very idea that THEY are the cause the conflict with Israel is absolutely insane.

    news flash freak, the reason much of the Muslims world is in chaos is because Zionist Jews are working tirelessly to produce THAT CONFLICT, just like they do here in America with "Black Lives Matter". Sorry to rain on you incredible lies, but America had NO ENEMIES BEFORE ISRAEL WAS CREATED!

    “AMERICA HAD NO ENEMIES…” So the creation of Israell triggered the blockade of Berlin and need for the air lift???

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  131. @iffen
    I don't understand how a person could be considered to have "full rights" if they are unable to return to ancestral land from which they have been driven.

    15 or even 12 years is a fairly common period for limitation of legal action to recover land. Usual exceptions include the plaintiff being under a disability so that time only begins to run when the potential plaintiff ceases to be under a disability – typically turning 18 or 21.

    You might say that the Palestinian refugees were and are effectively under a disability but, though I am merely speculating, i suspect that the correct analysis is that they could have sued in an Israeli court even without being in Israel (and is there any chance they would NOT have been able to engage an Israeli lawyer on a contingency fee?) but that the real problem was that they had no provable titles to the land. Very few people did under the Ottomans and I don’t know how that may have changed under the mandate.

    In the end compensation for deprivation of their land would be the right remedy because the very existence of compulsory acquisition powers by governments shows that private ownership is not absolutely sacrosanct against the public good and it would be hard to argue that the public good was best served by taking the Jewish owned farm, with or without compensation, and dividing it 10 ways per stirpes amongst the descendants of the deceased Palestinian farmer who was dispossessed in1948.

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  132. @Sam Shama
    LOL. I see see you are responding to dear old Art. I had clapped in irons and back to the 'CTI' gaol last week.

    Art’s relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.


    What a disgusting notion.

    Australia -- isn't that the place that you might call Britain's garbage pit? Where proper Brits -- those fine folks who Napoleon called a 'nation of shopkeepers' -- dumped their unwanted, incapable, and incorrigible? Did they fetch a good price from some "rich Jews"?

    Embedded in Muslim culture is the notion of hospitality: people are human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.
    , @Sam Shama
    Hi Wiz & Iffen #141
    Compensation is a sound idea for Palestinians displaced in 1948. I don't presume you read all my posts, but if you did, I am, gently put, somewhat emotional on the subject. I cannot suffer the ultra "religious" wankers who would not countenance a recognition of the Pals as genetic cousins, being deaf and mute as well, when compensation is mentioned. Its equally [and understandably] true that tens of thousands with dubious claims seek shelter in Israel. The populations which currently dwell in the WB, have, imho, strong claims for citizenship; they are de facto citizens and Israel is charged with their welfare. However, the state cannot admit greater numbers from neighbouring Arab nations. For them, strong verification and compensation is indicated. I have approached institutions and individuals which might have influence, the sentiment returned is ambivalent at best, economic recovery in EZ and US, stated as pivotal factors.
    , @Incitatus
    Palestinians should be compensated. Subsidies spent flooding the region with weapons would be much better spent on such aid. Sadly, Lockheed Martin and the death lobby don’t market the appropriate peacetime products (at least ones that are as profitable).

    “the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them [Palestinians]?”

    There’re probably as many answers (clan kinship, religious sect, etc.) as peoples. The easy one that comes to mind, however, is they pissed off the Sabahs (Kuwait) and Sauds (KSA) by rooting for Saddam in the first Gulf War. In the 70s-80s Palestinian expats in the Gulf held premier professional positions and commanded great esteem. With war, and the very visible shenanigans of their West Bank and Gaza cousins, they were summarily deported. It was a great pity - they are talented people and deserve much better.
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  133. Incitatus says:
    @L.K
    Incitatus, thinking itself 'smart', goes: "Israel is our proxy"

    Cute! Where did u learn that, Chomsky?

    Try 'Zusa is Israel's bitch & a Zio playground', and you'll be a little closer to the actual facts.

    Having read a few of your posts I gotta tell you you are full of shit.

    But you knew that already.

    Ah, the reptilian L.K slithers into view.

    I’m sorry I’ve disappointed you. I’m a great fan of yours. You’ve been quite muted lately. Bund meetings keeping you too busy? White sheets and hood at the cleaners? Cutting timber for cross burning taking most of your time?

    I congratulate you on such a clear demonstration of the inverse relationship between hate and brains – you’re amply endowed with the former and not much of the latter.

    But you knew that already.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Why do you think he knows it?
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  134. schmenz says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    As I thought that conversos became such long after any Muslim invasions I looked at the Wikipedia and Britannica accounts and I am still surprised by your implied chronology.

    Most Jews converted apparently after pogroms in Christian Spain in 1391 but were discriminated against anyway therafter, and even after the expulsion of the remaining unconverted Jews in 1492. As they tended to be urban doctors, lawyers and merchants much more than those of pure gentile descent it is not particularly surprising

    Relying on Wikipedia is probably not the best idea if you want cold, hard historical facts. In the world of Wikipedia the Jews are always suffering pogroms and their persecutors are always Christians. History is not so simple as that. Better to rely on the work of men who would spend literally years digging out the facts.

    Walsh isn’t the only author who has dispelled the infamous Black Legend against Spain but he is certainly one of the most thorough.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    There are two separate questions to answer here.

    Did the Jews aid the initial Muslim conquest?

    Did the Jews (as conversos) seek to undermine the Reconquista?
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  135. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wizard of Oz
    Art's relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq's Sunni or secular rulers didn't do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn't happen/couldn't have happened.

    why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.

    What a disgusting notion.

    Australia — isn’t that the place that you might call Britain’s garbage pit? Where proper Brits — those fine folks who Napoleon called a ‘nation of shopkeepers’ — dumped their unwanted, incapable, and incorrigible? Did they fetch a good price from some “rich Jews”?

    Embedded in Muslim culture is the notion of hospitality: people are human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    There are both factual and logical problem with your reply and I suspect that you are trying out for a place on the Rehmat team. But let me just test you with this: was the Baathist tyrant Saddam Hussein your idea of someone who embodied, exhibited or was likely to be ruled by the virtuous notions in your last paragraph?
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  136. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Incitatus,

    In fairness we owe this wonderfully diverting sidebar to our fellow-in-arms S2C. "Wherefore I touch silver to crystal: you Sir, are hereby recognised for providing a relief deeply sought"

    John Lobb, oh god of course. Couldn't do better. They used to make bespoke paddocks [equestrian] and I still have my old pair from a decade ago. Indestructible.

    Anderson and Sheppard. Ditto. "Kingsman: the secret service" shot in premises I believe. A 'must own' which I don't, and need to remedy that deficit.

    Harv & Hud or 'Bull & Ass? Both terrific but feet to fire I'd favour the former.

    Montechristo #1, paired with a [suitably young :-) ] McCallan or Balvenie? ! Heavenly.

    btw, do you perhaps know Widow Jane? Astonishing Bourbon I tried recently, and quid for quid, unbeatable.

    Cheers.

    Hi Sam,

    Agree on Harvie & Hudson. Some of mine, perfectly serviceable, are over 40 years old!

    Never got into single malts I’m ashamed to say. Especially since UDV was a client years ago. Fun to show up in their office on Thursdays at 4 (product tasting time for staff and guests). They had some pretty exotic nectar, but I had too little time to capitalize on the educational opportunity.

    I’ll keep on lookout for Widow Jane

    All the best.

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  137. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I can only think so far into the future. I'll ask you some questions.

    1. What do you want? 1SS or 2SS?

    2. Do you think there is any inclination in the U.S./Israel/Europe to structure a fund of the size needed to nurture an incipient Palestinian state? [I have so far found the appetite vanishingly small and what private investment flow to the WB occurs, is mostly from a breed of rare Israeli investors. Governments and international bodies are reeling from their own troubles or perfectly content to see the Eurozone recover substantially first]

    3. What is your view of the Palestinian leadership?

    4. What do you think would be the population reallocation preferences of Israeli Arabs were a new state formed?

    There are many more, but those are the basic ones. As peoples go, I reckon it is possible though difficult for Jew and Arab to live together, and eternal war isn't inevitable. Although some around here [ devotees of Hegel e.g. might disagree]

    Hi Sam,

    In your comment #92, you make the point that in the present,(not some time in the future) the “two state solution” is realistically dead.

    Which we both understand as saying the State of Palestine is dead.

    Are you saying, now, it’s NOT ?

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?

    Is this a modern day version of (Palestinian State) “holocaust denial” with the shoe now on the other foot ?

    Isn’t it the gods honest truth , that nobody, today, is going to move even ONE settler out of Palestine (understood as east of the green line.)

    Are you going to ?

    Is King Bibi ?

    Is Prince Avigdor ?

    Is Princess Ayelet ?

    Is Queen Hillary or King Donald ?

    My understanding, as of yesterday, is that not only are the settlements NOT being dismantled , but actually fully “legalized”, by Israel,(for whatever that’s worth) and there are hundreds more in tow.

    So ‘Greater’ Israel has , indeed, exterminated ‘untermenchen’ Palestine.

    Is that correct , Sam ?

    (I suppose we could, each of us, encapsulate this in more flowery prose….but what for ?)

    And if it is the case, what is the moral to the story ?

    What should we teach our children ?

    You seem to muster an acknowledgement that Palestinians should have some ‘rights’ within the newly formed Greater Israel.

    But why feel that way if you cannot even muster the Palestinians ‘right’ to have their own ‘state’ ?

    Why not just let the permanent underclass of Palestinians roam around, stateless, homeless, and without any rights ,whatsoever ?

    Like a virtual army of the living dead ?

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    • Replies: @Art

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?


    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?
     

    alexander,

    A great comment. No reply from the hasbara shock troops.

    They can never answer the truth of Zionism and fascist Israel, can they?

    They have a thousand million weasel words – but two short truthful sentences stymies them.

    Not a lifetime of schooling at Hasbara U (Jew culture) can dispel the evil that is Israel.

    Art

    , @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I am not sure if I'll ever be able to address all your questions, my meagre pen might prove unequal to the task. The answers to all your questions are based on basic morality, and therefore entirely obvious. I'll only say this, if its of any help: nations and civilisations have constantly undergone conquests, subjugation, annexation, genetic subsumation and indeed massacres. In the relative scheme as these things go, I'd say what the creation of Israel had wrought is small. Which is why I object to the term 'extermination'. Its nothing of the sort. Who cares if a nation called 'Palestine' remains? What is most important is that the people are cared for in a modern state. Where are proto-gothic states Gothi, Markomani, Chatti, Rugii, etc? All subsumed in Germany and Switzerland and others, no?

    What I'd like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB. The rest of it is mostly intellectual tussle.

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  138. @Anon
    why Iraq’s Sunni or secular rulers didn’t do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn’t happen/couldn’t have happened.


    What a disgusting notion.

    Australia -- isn't that the place that you might call Britain's garbage pit? Where proper Brits -- those fine folks who Napoleon called a 'nation of shopkeepers' -- dumped their unwanted, incapable, and incorrigible? Did they fetch a good price from some "rich Jews"?

    Embedded in Muslim culture is the notion of hospitality: people are human beings, not commodities to be bought and sold.

    There are both factual and logical problem with your reply and I suspect that you are trying out for a place on the Rehmat team. But let me just test you with this: was the Baathist tyrant Saddam Hussein your idea of someone who embodied, exhibited or was likely to be ruled by the virtuous notions in your last paragraph?

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  139. iffen says:
    @schmenz
    Relying on Wikipedia is probably not the best idea if you want cold, hard historical facts. In the world of Wikipedia the Jews are always suffering pogroms and their persecutors are always Christians. History is not so simple as that. Better to rely on the work of men who would spend literally years digging out the facts.

    Walsh isn't the only author who has dispelled the infamous Black Legend against Spain but he is certainly one of the most thorough.

    There are two separate questions to answer here.

    Did the Jews aid the initial Muslim conquest?

    Did the Jews (as conversos) seek to undermine the Reconquista?

    Read More
    • Replies: @schmenz
    While Isabella was fighting the Muslim hordes in Spain many prominent Jews, both the conversos and the marranos, were in fact conniving with the invaders. Jewish Conversos were, at least in a general sense, initially believers but under the influence of the "marranos" reverted back to their Jewish belief and practices. The Jewish (and Muslim) marranos on the other hand were false Christians and only outwardly converted for the benefits it would bring them and for the cover it would give them while they worked to undermine the State.

    Like recommending a good Hitchcock movie I don't want to say too much and "give away the ending" so I hope you find time to read Walsh.

    Walsh in his books is not attempting to create hatred between Christians and Jews but merely to set the record straight. For that reason alone his books are well worth studying.

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  140. @Incitatus
    Ah, the reptilian L.K slithers into view.

    I’m sorry I’ve disappointed you. I’m a great fan of yours. You’ve been quite muted lately. Bund meetings keeping you too busy? White sheets and hood at the cleaners? Cutting timber for cross burning taking most of your time?

    I congratulate you on such a clear demonstration of the inverse relationship between hate and brains - you’re amply endowed with the former and not much of the latter.

    But you knew that already.

    Why do you think he knows it?

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    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Good point. I’m chastened by exposure as an optimist.
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  141. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Iffen,
    Have you looked at the numbers and what that entails? Sure I could be disingenuous and tell you why not, let everyone that can claim ancestral lineage in [and honestly I've often thought "why not?"]

    Reality might intrude. Mexico owned some small portion of land out there in the west didn't they? Would you, could you, let them all be neighbours in your 'hood mon ami? [wouldn't that blurry your little peeps?]

    Actually, we have had a mestizo family in the hood for a couple of years. They seem to be devoted family people; little Pepe never plays in the street unless a parent is right there.

    I think a case can be made that pre 1948 is different from post 1948. We can put the former in the forced relocations as a result of WWII. Although, at some point a line has to be drawn. Can we put the 1990 Balkans into that category? I think that it is difficult to justify the later and current WB dislocations.

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  142. schmenz says:
    @iffen
    There are two separate questions to answer here.

    Did the Jews aid the initial Muslim conquest?

    Did the Jews (as conversos) seek to undermine the Reconquista?

    While Isabella was fighting the Muslim hordes in Spain many prominent Jews, both the conversos and the marranos, were in fact conniving with the invaders. Jewish Conversos were, at least in a general sense, initially believers but under the influence of the “marranos” reverted back to their Jewish belief and practices. The Jewish (and Muslim) marranos on the other hand were false Christians and only outwardly converted for the benefits it would bring them and for the cover it would give them while they worked to undermine the State.

    Like recommending a good Hitchcock movie I don’t want to say too much and “give away the ending” so I hope you find time to read Walsh.

    Walsh in his books is not attempting to create hatred between Christians and Jews but merely to set the record straight. For that reason alone his books are well worth studying.

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  143. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus
    I wish I could say there's a lot new in this article.
    • The US Government is in bed with Likkud Israel (big surprise there);
    • The US Press filters out the Palestinian view (again big surprise);
    • The US Press routinely adopts pejorative terminology (terrorist, terror tunnels, etc);
    • The US Press favors Israel and has long abandoned attempts to fairly portray the situation;
    • Peace talks are phony PR routines enabling irrevocable colonization;

    US aid to Israel is a nexus of US subsidies for US defense industries. Israel is our proxy. We furnish weapons and ordinance gratis. We protect Israel at the UN and elsewhere when they use those weapons. Should it be a surprise that Israel's easiest choice in dealing with unpleasant neighbors and unruly occupied peoples is force? American subsidizes force - not peace. Why? Because it benefits the same companies that produce bloated, dysfunctional weapons like the F-35 and Littoral Combat ship.

    Colt Arms built a whole Hartford neighborhood based on weapons. The demise of the Plains Indians in the late 19C followed. Sound familiar? We’re subsidizing Israelis to do the same to the Palestinians. What a surprise.

    Want to reform Israel? Fine. Maybe reforming ourselves is the place to start.

    Every word true. I used to get rather choleric on this subject [the US-Israel arms nexus] when I was younger, but the years and a better study of history, cured my zeal; pity I lost that warm glow of self-indulgent piety though.

    My comment earlier this year:

    http://www.unz.com/imercer/trump-doesnt-need-to-talk-like-a-conservative/#comment-1363155

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    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one - and I mean no one - should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud - responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO's been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end - a tragic figure - he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware - it's depressing): 'Incendies' first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.
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  144. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Art's relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq's Sunni or secular rulers didn't do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn't happen/couldn't have happened.

    Hi Wiz & Iffen #141
    Compensation is a sound idea for Palestinians displaced in 1948. I don’t presume you read all my posts, but if you did, I am, gently put, somewhat emotional on the subject. I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers who would not countenance a recognition of the Pals as genetic cousins, being deaf and mute as well, when compensation is mentioned. Its equally [and understandably] true that tens of thousands with dubious claims seek shelter in Israel. The populations which currently dwell in the WB, have, imho, strong claims for citizenship; they are de facto citizens and Israel is charged with their welfare. However, the state cannot admit greater numbers from neighbouring Arab nations. For them, strong verification and compensation is indicated. I have approached institutions and individuals which might have influence, the sentiment returned is ambivalent at best, economic recovery in EZ and US, stated as pivotal factors.

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    • Replies: @iffen
    I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers

    What's going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?
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  145. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Wiz & Iffen #141
    Compensation is a sound idea for Palestinians displaced in 1948. I don't presume you read all my posts, but if you did, I am, gently put, somewhat emotional on the subject. I cannot suffer the ultra "religious" wankers who would not countenance a recognition of the Pals as genetic cousins, being deaf and mute as well, when compensation is mentioned. Its equally [and understandably] true that tens of thousands with dubious claims seek shelter in Israel. The populations which currently dwell in the WB, have, imho, strong claims for citizenship; they are de facto citizens and Israel is charged with their welfare. However, the state cannot admit greater numbers from neighbouring Arab nations. For them, strong verification and compensation is indicated. I have approached institutions and individuals which might have influence, the sentiment returned is ambivalent at best, economic recovery in EZ and US, stated as pivotal factors.

    I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers

    What’s going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?

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    • Replies: @anon
    "What’s going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?"

    ask Greasy William
    , @Sam Shama
    They won't. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently.
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  146. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @iffen
    I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers

    What's going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?

    “What’s going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?”

    ask Greasy William

    Read More
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  147. L.K says:

    Given the trend of lies/obfuscation/propaganda carried out by Jews and their operatives re how the zio settler entity came about, it is always important to tell the truth about it.
    Alan Hart, a former BBC reporter and author of several books on the israel/Palestine conflict, had this to say on its creation:

    [...]In the name of pragmatism, willingness to “merely to recognise” Israel – meaning to accept and live in peace with an Israel inside its pre-June ’67 borders – has long been the formal Palestinian and all-Arab position. Why does it stop short of recognising Israel’s “right to exist”, and why, really, does it matter so much to Zionism that Palestinians recognise this right?

    The answer is in the following.

    According to history as written by the winner, Zionism, Israel was given its birth certificate and thus legitimacy by the UN Partition Resolution of 29 November 1947. This is propaganda nonsense.

    - In the first place the UN without the consent of the majority of the people of Palestine did not have the right to decide to partition Palestine or assign any part of its territory to a minority of alien immigrants in order for them to establish a state of their own.
    -Despite that, by the narrowest of margins, and only after a rigged vote, the UN General Assembly did pass a resolution to partition Palestine and create two states, one Arab, one Jewish, with Jerusalem not part of either. But the General Assembly resolution was only a proposal – meaning that it could have no effect, would not become policy, unless approved by the Security Council.
    -The truth is that the General Assembly’s partition proposal never went to the Security Council for consideration. Why not? Because the U.S. knew that, if approved, it could only be implemented by force given the extent of Arab and other Muslim opposition to it; and President Truman was not prepared to use force to partition Palestine.
    -So the partition plan was vitiated (became invalid) and the question of what the hell to do about Palestine – after Britain had made a mess of it and walked away, effectively surrendering to Zionist terrorism – was taken back to the General Assembly for more discussion. The option favoured and proposed by the U.S. was temporary UN Trusteeship. It was while the General Assembly was debating what do that Israel unilaterally declared itself to be in existence – actually in defiance of the will of the organised international community, including the Truman administration.
    The truth of the time was that the Zionist state, which came into being mainly as a consequence of pre-planned ethnic cleansing, had no right to exist and, more to the point, could have no right to exist UNLESS … Unless it was recognised and legitimized by those who were dispossessed of their land and their rights during the creation of the Zionist state. In international law only the Palestinians could give Israel the legitimacy it craved.

    And that legitimacy was the only thing the Zionists could not and cannot take from the Palestinians by force.[...]

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  148. L.K says:

    The excelent book by Alison Weir, ‘Against Our Better Judgment: The Hidden History of How the U.S. Was Used to Create Israel’, should be mandatory reading to understand how already back then the zio power configuration managed to overun the opinion of top US diplomatic and military experts, who were against the creation of ‘Israel’ in Palestine as something that would hurt US national interests:

    Few Americans today are aware that US support enabled the creation of modern Israel. Even fewer know that US politicians pushed this policy over the forceful objections of top diplomatic and military experts.

    https://www.amazon.com/Against-Our-Better-Judgment-History/dp/149591092X/ref=pd_sim_14_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=19JR3DHTRA4PJXH5607X

    The following excellent historical summary of what transpired in Palestine can be found @ Weir’s website;

    http://ifamericansknew.org/history/

    Take a look at the map showing the loss of Palestinian land since 1947!

    Another important book was written by Israeli Historian Ilan Pappe, titled ‘The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine’.

    Renowned Israeli historian, Ilan Pappe’s groundbreaking book revisits the formation of the State of Israel. Between 1947 and 1949, over 400 Palestinian villages were deliberately destroyed, civilians were massacred and around a million men, women, and children were expelled from their homes at gunpoint.

    https://www.amazon.com/Ethnic-Cleansing-Palestine-Ilan-Pappe/dp/1851685553/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1472836869&sr=1-1

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  149. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen
    I cannot suffer the ultra “religious” wankers

    What's going to happen when these types take complete control of Israel?

    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently.

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    • Replies: @Art
    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently. (i.e., Israeli citizens)

    Those "truly good" Jews voted for no peace.

    Their supreme leader, their Biggest Jew - Netanyahu - said "NO peace with the Palestinians" and the Little Jews voted for him in droves.

    Mr. Shama is so proud of them.

    He wants a Zionist final solution just as they do.
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  150. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* "disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine". What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    If you care to answer relevantly remember that the disturbance you were prima facie referring to was near eternal war.

    As I haven't studied the context properly I can't be sure what counts for you as the destruction of Palestine. There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire. Perhaps you mean that the descendants of the Arab people living in the British/UN Mandate Palestine before 1948** who are unwillingly landless and denied any rights within Israel will find it finally certain because of Israeli opposition that they will never have one or two substantial connected territories in which one or two independent political entities can prosper under their own good givernment. Is that it? Then who is going to maintain the eternal war at any level beyond what occurs in the occupied territories/West Bank now? Or is that level of violence on both sides what you have in mind? How does it compare with the situation in Kashmir by the way? Do you think someone other than the Indians and Pakistanis is going to disturb themselves because of that stand off which dates back to 1948?

    **You could take 1967 as an alternative starting point.

    There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire.

    Hey Wiz,

    Weasel words.

    Here are the realities of your non-people – of your people with no identity.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv’s use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists.

    more:

    Tell us jerk — who’s children are being tortured?

    7,000,000,000 people say they are Palestinian.

    Can you see no wrong – are you human – do you Jew share any morals with humanity?

    Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    That's rather a long snd rambling way of saying "Yes" to my assimption about who you meant. But what about answering the more difficult questions?
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  151. L.K says:

    Also, Israel is hardly self-sufficient; it has aways been heavily subsidized.
    One historian wrote:

    “Israel has never been self-supporting. It has always required massive subsidies from the outside – above all from the United States. Total direct US aid to Israel has amounted to well over $140 billion (in 2003 dollars). In addition, Germany and other European states and companies have paid out many billions in ‘restitution,’ and wealthy Jewish communities, especially in the US, have provided substantial financial assistance.”

    The above is actually just a part of it, there is much more.
    Take a look at the info in the new book ‘Big Israel: How Israel’s Lobby Moves America’, by Grant F. Smith.

    While some informed voters know the U.S. provides more foreign aid to Israel than any other country, the total flow of charitable, tax dollar, military aid, intelligence and “opportunity cost” are unknown to those footing the bill—and the lobby is determined to keep it that way.[...]
    Big Israel reveals how staid, respectable and bona fide social welfare organizations transformed themselves into a networked lobby for a foreign country—inflicting immense damage on average Americans.

    Read More
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  152. @Art
    There was a Palestine 2000 years ago but not I think under the Ottoman Empire.

    Hey Wiz,

    Weasel words.

    Here are the realities of your non-people - of your people with no identity.

    Australian film ‘Stone Cold Justice’ on Israel’s torture of Palestinian children

    A film which has been produced by a group of Australian journalists has sparked an international outcry against Israel after it explicitly detailed Tel Aviv's use of torture against Palestinian children.

    The film, titled ‘Stone Cold Justice’ documents how Palestinian children, who have been arrested and detained by Israeli forces, are subjected to physical abuse, torture and forced into false confessions and pushed into gathering intelligence on Palestinian activists.


    more:

    https://vimeo.com/86575949

     

    Tell us jerk --- who’s children are being tortured?

    7,000,000,000 people say they are Palestinian.

    Can you see no wrong - are you human - do you Jew share any morals with humanity?

    Art

    That’s rather a long snd rambling way of saying “Yes” to my assimption about who you meant. But what about answering the more difficult questions?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?
     
    When the Zionist Jews obliterate Palestine – will the world cower – or will good prevail over evil.

    It seems that you and Mr. Shama are willing to find out.
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  153. Art says:
    @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    In your comment #92, you make the point that in the present,(not some time in the future) the "two state solution" is realistically dead.

    Which we both understand as saying the State of Palestine is dead.

    Are you saying, now, it's NOT ?

    Is the point of this to be in 'denial' of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the "exterminator"or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the "exterminatee" ?

    Is this a modern day version of (Palestinian State) "holocaust denial" with the shoe now on the other foot ?

    Isn't it the gods honest truth , that nobody, today, is going to move even ONE settler out of Palestine (understood as east of the green line.)

    Are you going to ?

    Is King Bibi ?

    Is Prince Avigdor ?

    Is Princess Ayelet ?

    Is Queen Hillary or King Donald ?

    My understanding, as of yesterday, is that not only are the settlements NOT being dismantled , but actually fully "legalized", by Israel,(for whatever that's worth) and there are hundreds more in tow.

    So 'Greater' Israel has , indeed, exterminated 'untermenchen' Palestine.


    Is that correct , Sam ?

    (I suppose we could, each of us, encapsulate this in more flowery prose....but what for ?)

    And if it is the case, what is the moral to the story ?

    What should we teach our children ?

    You seem to muster an acknowledgement that Palestinians should have some 'rights' within the newly formed Greater Israel.

    But why feel that way if you cannot even muster the Palestinians 'right' to have their own 'state' ?

    Why not just let the permanent underclass of Palestinians roam around, stateless, homeless, and without any rights ,whatsoever ?

    Like a virtual army of the living dead ?

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?

    alexander,

    A great comment. No reply from the hasbara shock troops.

    They can never answer the truth of Zionism and fascist Israel, can they?

    They have a thousand million weasel words – but two short truthful sentences stymies them.

    Not a lifetime of schooling at Hasbara U (Jew culture) can dispel the evil that is Israel.

    Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I think its very difficult,in a genuine way, for many to accept what is happening to Palestine.

    I don't think Sam is an exception.

    The eventual "two state solution' was always the accepted fact, by most people who believe in Israel and wanted a reasonable outcome to its conflicts.

    But its death, which is the the death of Palestine (alone) is not so easy for many who depended on believing in it and the justness of its outcome.

    I understand how difficult it is to discuss, but in the same breath I don't see the "peace process" revived any time soon, if ever.

    Do you ?

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn't this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    Israel has made no effort to furnish a peace plan of its own, and none of the initiatives out there, to a reasonable resolution (to all this )ever even makes it out of the the batters box.

    So its a sad state of affairs for the victims and the victors, too.
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  154. Art says:
    @Sam Shama
    They won't. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently.

    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently. (i.e., Israeli citizens)

    Those “truly good” Jews voted for no peace.

    Their supreme leader, their Biggest Jew – Netanyahu – said “NO peace with the Palestinians” and the Little Jews voted for him in droves.

    Mr. Shama is so proud of them.

    He wants a Zionist final solution just as they do.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Hey Art,
    It has already been determined by serious scholars, including Jewish ones, that it's Israel which does not negotiage in good faith and does not want a 2 state solution.
    - It's Israel, almost everytime, that causes the 'wars' in Gaza.


    The book 'Method and Madness: The Hidden Story of Israel’s Assaults on Gaza', by Norman G. Finkelstein, a well known Jewish scholar (New York and London: OR Books, 2014), addresses these matters.


    Finkelstein writes in the preface that ‘a trio of themes form the connective tissue of the book’s narrative’.
    First, each attack on Gaza was preceded by a pattern of deliberate Israeli provocations leading to Hamas retaliation by means of largely ineffectual rockets, which Israel then exploited as a pretext. Second, in each case, Israel managed to evade accountability from the international community. Third, each massacre ended in a stalemate and the continuation of the siege of Gaza.

    Israel’s motivations have also remained consistent. Whereas Israel presents its offensives as reluctant responses to Palestinian aggression, the truth, Finkelstein argues, is precisely the opposite.

    Israel’s provocations and attacks typically follow Palestinian ‘peace offensives’—peace overtures that undermine Israel’s pretexts for rejecting a two-state solution and hence threaten it with the prospect of having to give up land in the West Bank. To forestall an unwelcome peace, Israel instigates a war and brands the Palestinians as ‘terrorists’ with whom no peace can be made. Finkelstein traces this pattern back to the 1982 war on Lebanon and takes the phrase ‘peace offensive’ from an Israeli analyst writing at the time.

     

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  155. Wally says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz
    Your claim to a 152 IQ might be bad for your credit on UR but it could be just the right starting point if you wanted to conceive, research, promote and manage what David Irving and others have failed to do, namely the overthrow of the accepted Holocaust story. Surely you could go to the Iranians and point out that now they have their money back from the Great Satan they can afford to fund the overthrow of one of Zionism's supporting myths. And "here I am" you might say "with a one in a thousand + IQ and peer reviewed publications to back my claims as an evaluator of evidence I offer you the chance to overthrow the great Zionist myth for no more than $10 million (less than a reconnaisance aircraft) to fund my research team".

    So what would have to be read and followed up with whatever kind of investigation was appropriate?

    The Wannsee conference would be a big one and all its supposedly validating connections dating back to all the anti-Jewish laws and further to Mein Kampf.

    Then there would be the best stats available on pre 1940 and post WW2 Jewish population in Europe.

    All the transcripts of trial evidence, all known and relevant diaries on both (all) sides; transcripts of the recorded conversations of German POWs of the British.

    Tens of tihousands of personal accounts including those by prison guards.

    Orders for chemicals to IG Farben etc. Train timetables and records which were for apparently non military purposes.

    All the photos and accounts of mass shootings by or in areas controlled by the Nazis.

    There's a lot of stuff which needs to be overturned to destroy the essential Holocaust story. So why not send a prospectus to Teheran and start recruiting your research team?

    Laughable nonsense.

    Each & every one of your slimy Zionist manufactured points has been debunked in spades, but you haven’t the balls to debate. You’re a coward.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:
    http://www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable ‘holocaust’ storyline is the message.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If what I said was nonsense you certainly haven't used those IQ points to show it. The challenge is not to run a website but to produce a coherent thoroughly researched body of work such as a much extended coroner"s inquest.

    You seem obsessed with the figureof 6 million but the murdering of millions of Jews by the Nazi regime doesn't have to have ended in 6 million having been killed to be true.

    Another irrelevant obsession is those mass graves that you keep on repeating are fundamental to some Jews' Holocaust version. Maybe some particular examples are wrong but there are plenty of bodies that have been found from the early shootings. And one wouldn't expect to find mass graves of those who had been cremated.
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  156. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    That's rather a long snd rambling way of saying "Yes" to my assimption about who you meant. But what about answering the more difficult questions?

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?

    When the Zionist Jews obliterate Palestine – will the world cower – or will good prevail over evil.

    It seems that you and Mr. Shama are willing to find out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You haven't understood the first thing about current concerns have you? Perhaps the sound of chest beating prevents you hearing.

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don't seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi's article!
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  157. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    Hi Sam,

    In your comment #92, you make the point that in the present,(not some time in the future) the "two state solution" is realistically dead.

    Which we both understand as saying the State of Palestine is dead.

    Are you saying, now, it's NOT ?

    Is the point of this to be in 'denial' of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?

    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the "exterminator"or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the "exterminatee" ?

    Is this a modern day version of (Palestinian State) "holocaust denial" with the shoe now on the other foot ?

    Isn't it the gods honest truth , that nobody, today, is going to move even ONE settler out of Palestine (understood as east of the green line.)

    Are you going to ?

    Is King Bibi ?

    Is Prince Avigdor ?

    Is Princess Ayelet ?

    Is Queen Hillary or King Donald ?

    My understanding, as of yesterday, is that not only are the settlements NOT being dismantled , but actually fully "legalized", by Israel,(for whatever that's worth) and there are hundreds more in tow.

    So 'Greater' Israel has , indeed, exterminated 'untermenchen' Palestine.


    Is that correct , Sam ?

    (I suppose we could, each of us, encapsulate this in more flowery prose....but what for ?)

    And if it is the case, what is the moral to the story ?

    What should we teach our children ?

    You seem to muster an acknowledgement that Palestinians should have some 'rights' within the newly formed Greater Israel.

    But why feel that way if you cannot even muster the Palestinians 'right' to have their own 'state' ?

    Why not just let the permanent underclass of Palestinians roam around, stateless, homeless, and without any rights ,whatsoever ?

    Like a virtual army of the living dead ?

    Hi Alexander,
    I am not sure if I’ll ever be able to address all your questions, my meagre pen might prove unequal to the task. The answers to all your questions are based on basic morality, and therefore entirely obvious. I’ll only say this, if its of any help: nations and civilisations have constantly undergone conquests, subjugation, annexation, genetic subsumation and indeed massacres. In the relative scheme as these things go, I’d say what the creation of Israel had wrought is small. Which is why I object to the term ‘extermination’. Its nothing of the sort. Who cares if a nation called ‘Palestine’ remains? What is most important is that the people are cared for in a modern state. Where are proto-gothic states Gothi, Markomani, Chatti, Rugii, etc? All subsumed in Germany and Switzerland and others, no?

    What I’d like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB. The rest of it is mostly intellectual tussle.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    What I’d like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB.

    Mr Shama's con goes on - Zionism will never let that happen and he knows it. If he was really serious about Palestinian citizenship he would acknowledge the Zionist problem.

    Here is the real Mr Shama.

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.
     
    “Not necessarily” expresses a hoped for successful outcome to the Zionist final solution.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Are you sure that resting your answers on basic morality makes them obvious? Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law? Basic perhaps but not the Islamic way I think, except amongst Muslims.

    What do you think the agreed content of basic morality consists of?
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  158. alexander says:
    @Art

    Is the point of this to be in ‘denial’ of the extermination of the state of Palestine, because it is difficult to discuss ?


    Is it painful to recognize Israel as the “exterminator”or just difficult to recognize Palestine as the “exterminatee” ?
     

    alexander,

    A great comment. No reply from the hasbara shock troops.

    They can never answer the truth of Zionism and fascist Israel, can they?

    They have a thousand million weasel words – but two short truthful sentences stymies them.

    Not a lifetime of schooling at Hasbara U (Jew culture) can dispel the evil that is Israel.

    Art

    I think its very difficult,in a genuine way, for many to accept what is happening to Palestine.

    I don’t think Sam is an exception.

    The eventual “two state solution’ was always the accepted fact, by most people who believe in Israel and wanted a reasonable outcome to its conflicts.

    But its death, which is the the death of Palestine (alone) is not so easy for many who depended on believing in it and the justness of its outcome.

    I understand how difficult it is to discuss, but in the same breath I don’t see the “peace process” revived any time soon, if ever.

    Do you ?

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn’t this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    Israel has made no effort to furnish a peace plan of its own, and none of the initiatives out there, to a reasonable resolution (to all this )ever even makes it out of the the batters box.

    So its a sad state of affairs for the victims and the victors, too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn’t this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.
     
    alexander,

    Mr. Shama may be part of the US K-Street Jews - I think that when push comes to shove, that they are trying to save themselves not Palestinians. They are preparing for a backlash.

    I believe that Zionism is a manifestation of Jew culture - a 100% manifestation of Jew think.

    K-Street meagerly protests – but never in a meaningful way. They never win with congress.

    I believe they are false flag rearguard action that covers up for AIPAC and the ADL. When things go bad, they will become the face of Judaism that their MSM will present to the America public.

    The true well-meaning Jew willing to fight Zionism is rare thing.

    Art

    p.s. Feeling sorry for the Jews is manna to the Zionists. The truth is they know what they are doing - everything is calculated.

    p.s. Sorry for the miserable bleak assessment – but it is all true.
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  159. Art says:
    @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I am not sure if I'll ever be able to address all your questions, my meagre pen might prove unequal to the task. The answers to all your questions are based on basic morality, and therefore entirely obvious. I'll only say this, if its of any help: nations and civilisations have constantly undergone conquests, subjugation, annexation, genetic subsumation and indeed massacres. In the relative scheme as these things go, I'd say what the creation of Israel had wrought is small. Which is why I object to the term 'extermination'. Its nothing of the sort. Who cares if a nation called 'Palestine' remains? What is most important is that the people are cared for in a modern state. Where are proto-gothic states Gothi, Markomani, Chatti, Rugii, etc? All subsumed in Germany and Switzerland and others, no?

    What I'd like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB. The rest of it is mostly intellectual tussle.

    What I’d like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB.

    Mr Shama’s con goes on – Zionism will never let that happen and he knows it. If he was really serious about Palestinian citizenship he would acknowledge the Zionist problem.

    Here is the real Mr Shama.

    alexander: Doesn’t the complete dissolution of Palestine portend a permanent state of war, for as far as the eye can see ?
    A state of near “eternal” war ?

    Shama: Not necessarily.

    “Not necessarily” expresses a hoped for successful outcome to the Zionist final solution.

    Read More
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  160. Art says:
    @alexander
    I think its very difficult,in a genuine way, for many to accept what is happening to Palestine.

    I don't think Sam is an exception.

    The eventual "two state solution' was always the accepted fact, by most people who believe in Israel and wanted a reasonable outcome to its conflicts.

    But its death, which is the the death of Palestine (alone) is not so easy for many who depended on believing in it and the justness of its outcome.

    I understand how difficult it is to discuss, but in the same breath I don't see the "peace process" revived any time soon, if ever.

    Do you ?

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn't this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    Israel has made no effort to furnish a peace plan of its own, and none of the initiatives out there, to a reasonable resolution (to all this )ever even makes it out of the the batters box.

    So its a sad state of affairs for the victims and the victors, too.

    And I do not see anything else but a doubling down and acceleration of the settlement enterprise.

    Isn’t this what you see too , Art ?

    So Sam must see it also.

    alexander,

    Mr. Shama may be part of the US K-Street Jews – I think that when push comes to shove, that they are trying to save themselves not Palestinians. They are preparing for a backlash.

    I believe that Zionism is a manifestation of Jew culture – a 100% manifestation of Jew think.

    K-Street meagerly protests – but never in a meaningful way. They never win with congress.

    I believe they are false flag rearguard action that covers up for AIPAC and the ADL. When things go bad, they will become the face of Judaism that their MSM will present to the America public.

    The true well-meaning Jew willing to fight Zionism is rare thing.

    Art

    p.s. Feeling sorry for the Jews is manna to the Zionists. The truth is they know what they are doing – everything is calculated.

    p.s. Sorry for the miserable bleak assessment – but it is all true.

    Read More
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  161. @Art

    Why do you think that in the long run people *will* “disturb their lives over the total destruction of Palestine”. What is the historical or socio-psychological evidence you rely on to give you belief in that? By Americans not least?
     
    When the Zionist Jews obliterate Palestine – will the world cower – or will good prevail over evil.

    It seems that you and Mr. Shama are willing to find out.

    You haven’t understood the first thing about current concerns have you? Perhaps the sound of chest beating prevents you hearing.

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!
     
    Unbelievable - when have I made a comment that does not lament the theft of Palestine.

    p.s. Sorry but a good number of your comments are gibberish. Too many words that cloud what you want to say.
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  162. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Art's relatively sane point about compensation for Palestinian refugees and their descendants raises the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them. And it raises the particular hypothetical as to why Iraq's Sunni or secular rulers didn't do a deal with Israel and rich Jews to settle Palestinians in Iraq so as to boost Sunni numbers in a Shia majority state.

    Fantasy no doubt but I wonder what the best reason is why it didn't happen/couldn't have happened.

    Palestinians should be compensated. Subsidies spent flooding the region with weapons would be much better spent on such aid. Sadly, Lockheed Martin and the death lobby don’t market the appropriate peacetime products (at least ones that are as profitable).

    “the old question about why Arab countries have done so little for them [Palestinians]?”

    There’re probably as many answers (clan kinship, religious sect, etc.) as peoples. The easy one that comes to mind, however, is they pissed off the Sabahs (Kuwait) and Sauds (KSA) by rooting for Saddam in the first Gulf War. In the 70s-80s Palestinian expats in the Gulf held premier professional positions and commanded great esteem. With war, and the very visible shenanigans of their West Bank and Gaza cousins, they were summarily deported. It was a great pity – they are talented people and deserve much better.

    Read More
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  163. @Wally
    Laughable nonsense.

    Each & every one of your slimy Zionist manufactured points has been debunked in spades, but you haven't the balls to debate. You're a coward.

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    www.codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, or 250,000 at Sobibor) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.


    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

    - Gerard Menuhin / Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     

    Revisionists are just the messengers, the absurd impossibility of the laughable 'holocaust' storyline is the message.

    If what I said was nonsense you certainly haven’t used those IQ points to show it. The challenge is not to run a website but to produce a coherent thoroughly researched body of work such as a much extended coroner”s inquest.

    You seem obsessed with the figureof 6 million but the murdering of millions of Jews by the Nazi regime doesn’t have to have ended in 6 million having been killed to be true.

    Another irrelevant obsession is those mass graves that you keep on repeating are fundamental to some Jews’ Holocaust version. Maybe some particular examples are wrong but there are plenty of bodies that have been found from the early shootings. And one wouldn’t expect to find mass graves of those who had been cremated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    More infantile propaganda from you, essentially a witchcraft believer. Your impossible world is nothing but a primitive religion, false idols, shrines, the works. LOL!!

    There are NO enormous excavated mass graves as alleged, period. Why do you ignore physical reality?
    If you could actually show excavated enormous mass graves then you would, you cannot.
    If you think you can then try posting them here:
    forum.codoh.com

    www.codoh.com has links to countless well researched works, i.e.:
    Air Photo Evidence
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/27-ape.pdf
    more:
    see research which demolishes the impossible '6M Jews'canard:
    'Holocaust Handbooks'
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/index.php?main_page=1
    http://holocausthandbooks.com/dl/Holocaust-Handbooks-1min-640x360.mp4

    see 'holocaust' debunking videos:

    Questioning the Holocaust: Why We Believed (Part 1 of 2)
    http://codoh.com/library/document/4056/

    The Treblinka Archaeology Hoax
    http://codoh.com/library/document/3286/

    Holocaust, Hate Speech & Were the Germans so Stupid?
    http://codoh.com/library/document/1530/

    3D Imagery Demonstrates the Auschwitz Hole Hoax
    http://codoh.com/library/document/3920/

    The Majdanek Gas Chamber Myth
    http://codoh.com/library/document/3343/

    Auschwitz—The Surprising Hidden Truth
    http://codoh.com/library/document/1527

    http://codoh.com/news/3359/
    Curated Lies
    The Auschwitz Museum’s Misrepresentations, Distortions and Deceptions
    By Carlo Mattogno

    And why do you want 6M Jews to be dead? Revisionist don't, I don't.

    We bring you good news.

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  164. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Why do you think he knows it?

    Good point. I’m chastened by exposure as an optimist.

    Read More
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  165. @Sam Shama
    Hi Alexander,
    I am not sure if I'll ever be able to address all your questions, my meagre pen might prove unequal to the task. The answers to all your questions are based on basic morality, and therefore entirely obvious. I'll only say this, if its of any help: nations and civilisations have constantly undergone conquests, subjugation, annexation, genetic subsumation and indeed massacres. In the relative scheme as these things go, I'd say what the creation of Israel had wrought is small. Which is why I object to the term 'extermination'. Its nothing of the sort. Who cares if a nation called 'Palestine' remains? What is most important is that the people are cared for in a modern state. Where are proto-gothic states Gothi, Markomani, Chatti, Rugii, etc? All subsumed in Germany and Switzerland and others, no?

    What I'd like to see concretely, is a vesting of citizenship to existing Pals in the WB. The rest of it is mostly intellectual tussle.

    Are you sure that resting your answers on basic morality makes them obvious? Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law? Basic perhaps but not the Islamic way I think, except amongst Muslims.

    What do you think the agreed content of basic morality consists of?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law?]

    Basic morality: I'd still cling to the kernel that all human life is equal, attaching no tertiary clauses.

    Its an idea more honoured in the breach than in the observance, over the march of our Time. Is it true that all human life is equal? Only if we insist. Logic precludes it.

    Yet accepting that logic surely awakens emotions, the shades of which we cannot peg with equanimity. For most, that's the logic of machines, of barren waste, a loss of spirit and soul. For others, dial a different time, a rousing tune with a gifted tongue, and barren waste it is no longer, but in fact the gates of the abode of their gods flung wide, ready for the cleansing fire to come.

    So insist we must, those gates remain unopened.

    Stepping away from all the foregoing poppycock, I'd say we insist on a rules-based society. Land, if we see it as a non-depreciating asset, an asset which is only as good as its current tenants tend it, then most of our problems are moot. Only labour and its derivative, capital, have value and therefore the tenancy of any group is bounded by the quality and quantity of their inputs; you may prosper or perish all in accordance to your work.

    I only ask those rules be tempered with a spirit of generosity.
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  166. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama
    Every word true. I used to get rather choleric on this subject [the US-Israel arms nexus] when I was younger, but the years and a better study of history, cured my zeal; pity I lost that warm glow of self-indulgent piety though.

    My comment earlier this year:

    http://www.unz.com/imercer/trump-doesnt-need-to-talk-like-a-conservative/#comment-1363155

    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one – and I mean no one – should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud – responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO’s been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end – a tragic figure – he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware – it’s depressing): ‘Incendies’ first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi "lebensraum", back in time to "manifest destiny" to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.


    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi "lebensraum", please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?
    , @Sam Shama
    As cogent an accounting of what's going on in Israel as I've seen anywhere; keenly appreciated the rapier insight with which you cut through all the bs.



    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time.
     
    and

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

     


     
    I tip my hat.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I have not seen much of Palestinian Palestine. Indeed I have spent as much (small amount of) time talking to very p***ed off Bedouins in Israel as to West Bank Palestinians. But one of my Australian politician friends, a former government minister with strong principles, though belonging of course to a party which supported Israel in most things, was savage about the way he saw Palestinians treated on the West Bank.

    Nonetheless I wonder why you think it lamentable that many or most "colonists/settlers" would like to see the Palestinians emigrate voluntarily. Why wouldn't the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)? Was the creation of Liberia such an abhorrent idea (without the benefit of knowing about its late 20th century condition)? It's surely completely different from attempting to make life so unbearable that they would leave as seems to have been Hitler's original plan for German Jews.

    , @iffen
    I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    Hence there can be no one state solution. The Palestinians would be an eternal 5th column. Sam says they should have equal rights and citizenship. Could they be Chief of Staff, engage in strategic planning, exercise police power in Orthodox communities, carry the football? None of that works except the eternal enemy part.

    As for two states, think Gaza on a grand scale. I suppose after the US tidies up all the states that it has built in the ME and around the world it could build a Palestinian one.

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met).

    I have said this before. Mine is a lot cruder. These 88s don’t give a ff about the Palestinians.

    But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding.

    It is nearly impossible for a reasonable opposition to get traction. Leaving aside arguments of undue influence of Jews in the media and politics, we can see that the existence of neo-Nazis which can be hung around the neck of legitimate opposition is deadly. We can see the effectiveness of this tactic currently with Clinton tying Trump to the alt-right. You have said before that you suspect SC2 is a mole. I suspect many of them. People accuse Jews of continually playing the Holocaust card, I think this neo-Nazi card is pretty potent as well.
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  167. L.K says:
    @Art
    They won’t. Truly good religious folks are also aplenty, both those and secular portions show very healthy population growth recently. (i.e., Israeli citizens)

    Those "truly good" Jews voted for no peace.

    Their supreme leader, their Biggest Jew - Netanyahu - said "NO peace with the Palestinians" and the Little Jews voted for him in droves.

    Mr. Shama is so proud of them.

    He wants a Zionist final solution just as they do.

    Hey Art,
    It has already been determined by serious scholars, including Jewish ones, that it’s Israel which does not negotiage in good faith and does not want a 2 state solution.
    - It’s Israel, almost everytime, that causes the ‘wars’ in Gaza.

    The book ‘Method and Madness: The Hidden Story of Israel’s Assaults on Gaza’, by Norman G. Finkelstein, a well known Jewish scholar (New York and London: OR Books, 2014), addresses these matters.

    Finkelstein writes in the preface that ‘a trio of themes form the connective tissue of the book’s narrative’.
    First, each attack on Gaza was preceded by a pattern of deliberate Israeli provocations leading to Hamas retaliation by means of largely ineffectual rockets, which Israel then exploited as a pretext. Second, in each case, Israel managed to evade accountability from the international community. Third, each massacre ended in a stalemate and the continuation of the siege of Gaza.

    Israel’s motivations have also remained consistent. Whereas Israel presents its offensives as reluctant responses to Palestinian aggression, the truth, Finkelstein argues, is precisely the opposite.

    Israel’s provocations and attacks typically follow Palestinian ‘peace offensives’—peace overtures that undermine Israel’s pretexts for rejecting a two-state solution and hence threaten it with the prospect of having to give up land in the West Bank. To forestall an unwelcome peace, Israel instigates a war and brands the Palestinians as ‘terrorists’ with whom no peace can be made. Finkelstein traces this pattern back to the 1982 war on Lebanon and takes the phrase ‘peace offensive’ from an Israeli analyst writing at the time.

    Read More
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  168. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one - and I mean no one - should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud - responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO's been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end - a tragic figure - he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware - it's depressing): 'Incendies' first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi “lebensraum”, back in time to “manifest destiny” to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.

    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Are you just saying that the Israelis can find no justification by saying that what they are doing is at least no worse nor less justifiable as an ambition than Ĺebensraum and Manifest Destiny? If so then I would agree because it is only recently that the impulse to send one's multiplying population into new lands so that they can all be fed has been shown to be totally unnecessary. On the other hand neither Hitler's Germany nor 19th century America were threatened with extinction by neighbours so maybe the issues are just different.

    No doubt a number of the settlers would be just as genocidally racialist as Hitler's Germans proved to be in Eastern Europe but a combination of world opinion (remembering how small and weak Israel is compared to 1930s Germany), genuine humanism, and Jews being much less likely than 30s Germans to obey governments meekly i suggest are all distinguishing features that must affect the extent to which Israeli politicians can hope to exclude Palestinians from the West Bank.
    , @iffen
    cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi “lebensraum”,

    Obviously this lebensraum business was nothing but a lot of Nazi propaganda. The Germans have plenty of room for everybody in their country as evidenced by today's immigration.
    , @Incitatus
    alexander,

    Interesting question. I’ll try to do it justice.

    In the early days we bought land for trade goods (e.g. Manhattan). It’s good policy when you’re outnumbered by natives. Plus natives become addicted to your trade goods. Ever increasing numbers of colonists, foreign diseases, technology, rum and brandy, and trade dependancy enabled colonists to change their leverage.

    Manifest Destiny was the consensus that colonials were entitled to the full width of the continent, and no foreign power should intrude on that right. Settlement subsidization followed, and development (railroads, etc) changed native life forever. Killing natives outright was less preferable than simply making them move west and, finally onto land no one else wanted. Generally Americans lost little sleep over any moral issues. Been to a reservation lately?

    It’s not a pretty record. On the other hand, Natives weren’t always the ‘noble savages’ of legend. 17C genocidal tribal wars, slavery, and incredibly cruel torture was not infrequent. Many tribes/clans simply didn’t like each other.

    “If you do not believe this [Israeli] behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not?”
     
    Let me start by saying I trust you believe one of Hitler’s goals was lebensraum. Some on UNZ don’t. It’s well documented in many sources. Adolf’s vision for natives wasn’t reservations. It was extermination. First by inducing famine, exposure, or terminal forced labor. Second, by direct murder. Let Adolf speak for himself:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Nice guy wasn’t he? 20,000 - 25,000 civilians died in Warsaw that September (the same number killed by Allies at Dresden 1944). Adolf really picked up the pace after Barbarossa (22 Jun 1941). Nazi murder went wholesale.

    Let me sum up. Manifest Destiny: displacement, theft of land, limiting/ending native ways of living, and hostile military treatment (including some massacres). Nazi policy: extermination by induced or direct means.

    If you find words by an Israeli head of state, and action that reveals direct genocidal policy, I’ll gladly adopt the Lebensraum parity. Manifest Destiny seems more accurate, and it’s bad enough.

    Let me ask you a question. Why the need equate one with the other? Why drag the tired old Nazis into it? Provoking passionate reactions (for or against) usually ends rational discourse. Do you simply want to accuse Israelis of being Nazis? How does that help Palestinians?
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  169. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Are you sure that resting your answers on basic morality makes them obvious? Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law? Basic perhaps but not the Islamic way I think, except amongst Muslims.

    What do you think the agreed content of basic morality consists of?

    [Even assuming the facts are clear there can be different version of basic morality can there not? Equality before the law?]

    Basic morality: I’d still cling to the kernel that all human life is equal, attaching no tertiary clauses.

    Its an idea more honoured in the breach than in the observance, over the march of our Time. Is it true that all human life is equal? Only if we insist. Logic precludes it.

    Yet accepting that logic surely awakens emotions, the shades of which we cannot peg with equanimity. For most, that’s the logic of machines, of barren waste, a loss of spirit and soul. For others, dial a different time, a rousing tune with a gifted tongue, and barren waste it is no longer, but in fact the gates of the abode of their gods flung wide, ready for the cleansing fire to come.

    So insist we must, those gates remain unopened.

    Stepping away from all the foregoing poppycock, I’d say we insist on a rules-based society. Land, if we see it as a non-depreciating asset, an asset which is only as good as its current tenants tend it, then most of our problems are moot. Only labour and its derivative, capital, have value and therefore the tenancy of any group is bounded by the quality and quantity of their inputs; you may prosper or perish all in accordance to your work.

    I only ask those rules be tempered with a spirit of generosity.

    Read More
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  170. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus
    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one - and I mean no one - should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud - responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO's been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end - a tragic figure - he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware - it's depressing): 'Incendies' first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

    As cogent an accounting of what’s going on in Israel as I’ve seen anywhere; keenly appreciated the rapier insight with which you cut through all the bs.

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time.

    and

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    I tip my hat.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Thanks Sam.

    Having just finished ‘Devil’s Diary’ I have a couple entertaining Rosenberg stories/quotes typical of Third Reich 'leadership'. I hope to share them soon, but regret my current lack of time.

    Best for the holiday.
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  171. @alexander
    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi "lebensraum", back in time to "manifest destiny" to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.


    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi "lebensraum", please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?

    Are you just saying that the Israelis can find no justification by saying that what they are doing is at least no worse nor less justifiable as an ambition than Ĺebensraum and Manifest Destiny? If so then I would agree because it is only recently that the impulse to send one’s multiplying population into new lands so that they can all be fed has been shown to be totally unnecessary. On the other hand neither Hitler’s Germany nor 19th century America were threatened with extinction by neighbours so maybe the issues are just different.

    No doubt a number of the settlers would be just as genocidally racialist as Hitler’s Germans proved to be in Eastern Europe but a combination of world opinion (remembering how small and weak Israel is compared to 1930s Germany), genuine humanism, and Jews being much less likely than 30s Germans to obey governments meekly i suggest are all distinguishing features that must affect the extent to which Israeli politicians can hope to exclude Palestinians from the West Bank.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    This is a fair comment wizard.

    I think the situation is different in Israel.

    Most Americans who support the settlement enterprise (and we know there are over a dozen billionaires in the US who underwrite it on a daily basis) are quite eager to make the comparison between Greater Israels settlers expanding 'eastward' over Palestine and the 18th (and 19th) century early American colonists expanding 'westward' over North America.

    This is a welcome comparison. It is almost always "encouraged" when discussions of the settlement enterprise are engaged among the elites in the power centers of the US.

    Even liberal websites like "Mondoweiss" refer to Israels expansionist tendencies as "Settler Colonialism" either deliberately or subliminally harking back to the age of Manifest Destiny which created the United States through westward expansion.

    "See", Israelis say, "we are just like you (the US) were, two hundred years ago, same thing, different dates".

    But everybody and their uncle , avoids, like the PLAGUE, comparisons made to the 'odious' Nazi "Lebensraum".

    NO, NO, big taboo!

    What is so funny about all this, is the conscious ,deliberate "Leap-frogging" over the ENTIRE NAZI ERA, when discourse ( and comparisons) of Israeli land grabs takes place.

    Its as though "lebensraum", the central tenet of Nazi expansionism, has simply "vanished" from history in ANY and ALL comparative discussions of Israels policies.

    For the record,the greatest distinction between "Manifest Destiny" and Israeli "land grabs"which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a "supreme international crime" to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn't a 'crime' at all.

    Whereas what makes all 'land conquering' and 'land taking' a criminal act TODAY,was precisely the outcome of WWII and the universal condemnation of Nazi 'ethnic cleansing' and Nazi "lebensraum".

    The hinge on the legitimacy / illegitimacy of such behavior was precisely the universal sets of laws and treaties instituted after WWII, in direct response to the Third Reich's desire for war, conquest and domination.
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  172. @Incitatus
    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one - and I mean no one - should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud - responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO's been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end - a tragic figure - he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware - it's depressing): 'Incendies' first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

    I have not seen much of Palestinian Palestine. Indeed I have spent as much (small amount of) time talking to very p***ed off Bedouins in Israel as to West Bank Palestinians. But one of my Australian politician friends, a former government minister with strong principles, though belonging of course to a party which supported Israel in most things, was savage about the way he saw Palestinians treated on the West Bank.

    Nonetheless I wonder why you think it lamentable that many or most “colonists/settlers” would like to see the Palestinians emigrate voluntarily. Why wouldn’t the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)? Was the creation of Liberia such an abhorrent idea (without the benefit of knowing about its late 20th century condition)? It’s surely completely different from attempting to make life so unbearable that they would leave as seems to have been Hitler’s original plan for German Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Why wouldn’t the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)?
     
    Gee - where have we heard that before?

    Art: The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    #108

     
    , @Incitatus
    No surprise the Bedouins were upset - it seems to congenital judging by their cousins in Jordan and KSA. Jordan had to ban transporting camels in open pickups (too many fell onto the road and/or onto other vehicles). In KSA they favored the small, cheap pickups. None really acclimated to driving, so one saw wrecks lodged in the most unusual places. Other drivers regarded them as 'kamikazes.’

    Years ago I saw Midge Decter interviewed on C-Span. She said, with a totally straight face, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. I’ve heard it many times since then. Removing their identity is the first step in a process that strips them of their rights. I’m sure Midge harbored no homicidal desire. By disconnecting them from any right to the land, she probably just wants them to go away (or, at worst, remain an invisible people). Many I've since seen interviewed share that attitude.

    PS. I admire you for attempting to labor in Wally’s barren vineyard. Alas, he seems intent on producing such a bitter vintage.

    All the best.
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  173. iffen says:
    @alexander
    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi "lebensraum", back in time to "manifest destiny" to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.


    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi "lebensraum", please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?

    cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi “lebensraum”,

    Obviously this lebensraum business was nothing but a lot of Nazi propaganda. The Germans have plenty of room for everybody in their country as evidenced by today’s immigration.

    Read More
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  174. iffen says:
    @Incitatus
    Sam,

    I saw my first Palestinian refuge camp in Jordan in the mid-70s and spent twenty+ subsequent years an indignant advocate for justice. No one - and I mean no one - should live in such hopeless squaller.

    Age brings pragmatism. I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    There’s more than enough blame to go around. I think US is number one. Likkud - responsible for decades long diplomatic paralysis, colonization and disingenuous rhetoric -is number two. But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding. In other words, the US owns it.

    Palestinians deserve blame as well. The PLO's been co-opted as a proxy by Likkud. Nazis corrupted Adam Czerniakow and the Warsaw Judenrat. Czerniakow had little choice of course. But the most human urge is the primal wish to survive with a pay check (Czerniakow killed himself in the end - a tragic figure - he finally realized the Nazis were going to kill all Jews anyway).

    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time. Lamentably I think many/most? would like Palestinians to voluntarily emigrate elsewhere (Jordan? Iraq?). I also think Israel won’t give up the West Bank (any more than we abandoned Manifest Destiny). I don’t think it’s right. But what I think doesn’t matter. It is what it is.

    Looking carefully at the future is the only path. Those that dwell in assessing blame and scourging past behavior (on behalf of any participant) usually have ulterior motives. On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

    A great Canadian film (beware - it's depressing): 'Incendies' first screened in 2010. Aeschylus takes on Lebanon and the Mideast.

    I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    Hence there can be no one state solution. The Palestinians would be an eternal 5th column. Sam says they should have equal rights and citizenship. Could they be Chief of Staff, engage in strategic planning, exercise police power in Orthodox communities, carry the football? None of that works except the eternal enemy part.

    As for two states, think Gaza on a grand scale. I suppose after the US tidies up all the states that it has built in the ME and around the world it could build a Palestinian one.

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met).

    I have said this before. Mine is a lot cruder. These 88s don’t give a ff about the Palestinians.

    But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding.

    It is nearly impossible for a reasonable opposition to get traction. Leaving aside arguments of undue influence of Jews in the media and politics, we can see that the existence of neo-Nazis which can be hung around the neck of legitimate opposition is deadly. We can see the effectiveness of this tactic currently with Clinton tying Trump to the alt-right. You have said before that you suspect SC2 is a mole. I suspect many of them. People accuse Jews of continually playing the Holocaust card, I think this neo-Nazi card is pretty potent as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus
    Hi iffen,

    To me a paradox of any ‘universal’ religious state is that the founding faith needs by definition keep a decisive majority (and remain universal). I’ve heard target figures of 80% for Israel, below which everyone gets very nervous.

    Blumenthal’s work (‘Goliath’ and ‘The 51 Day War’) make any viable one/two state solutions seem unlikely. Minimum denominational figures restrict a one state solution. I’d back Sam on the full citizenship option, but I don’t see it happening.

    I agree the two state solution is Gaza(s) on steroids, at best a Bantustan. Most options I’ve seen agree on keeping the West Bank in some form or another, few of them good for Palestinians. I think it’s wrong. I also think Manifest Destiny was wrong. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what I think. The issue lies with the Israelis and Palestinians. I don’t envy either.

    Quick thoughts on measures that might staunch some of the poison (in random order):

    • Demolition: end collective punishment or equally enforce the policy - this means demolish the houses of the terrorists that burned-to-death the Palestinian boy and the family, or end the policy once and for all;
    • Treat crimes equally: i.e. increase investigation and indictments for crimes on Palestinians (some ridiculous figure like 2% actually go to trial, and fewer result in convictions);
    • Stop ‘mowing the lawn’ (i.e. deliberate incitement and quick, overwhelming repression);
    • Highways: open restricted highways to all;
    • Checkpoints: eliminate the intrusive, unnecessary choke holds on Palestinians and give them back some dignity;
    • Tax revenues: stop using Palestinian tax retainage as a weapon to force policy compliance;
    • Water rights: distribute on a more equitable basis and eliminate preferential subsidies for exclusive groups;
    • End targeted assassination, visibly recommit to legal due process;
    • Summarily fire any cabinet minister who characterizes any minority as ‘little snakes’ or the like (especially a justice minister);
    • Demilitarize policy: force need not be the first option;
    • Tone down the rhetoric on Iran;
    • End West Bank colonization (that’s not going to happen).

    Plymouth (1620) and the Massachusetts Bay Colony (1630) were both largely religious enterprises. RCs risked death if found proselytizing. Condemnation and distrust of RCs and others endured for centuries. Eventually conditions moderated, but it took generations. It’d be nice to think that could happen in Israel sometime in the future. Who knows?

    I agree with your take on the 88s. In fact, Avery makes some of my favorite comments.

    Opposition to Likkud. It’d be great if the full range of coverage found in Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, and other Israeli sources showed up in our press. I don’t know if that'd improve opposition chances in Israel (the politics of shrill division seem to work too well for Likkud et.al.). But at least Americans might have a chance to appreciate a much wider range of Israeli opinion.

    The confluence of our pandering representatives, AIPAC, skewed press coverage, and big contributors seems equally unhealthy for Israel and the US. I favor limiting campaign duration and restricting election funding, sunlight on contributors, contribution limits, a ban on corporate funding of any type, ending tax exemption for think tank lobbyists, reversal of Citizens United, etc.

    Though rushed by family commitments, I hope some of this makes sense.

    Best for the holiday.
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  175. Incitatus says:
    @alexander
    I think this is a pretty good comment, Incitatus.

    But when will you , Sam , and whomever else, cease and desist in leap -frogging , over Nazi "lebensraum", back in time to "manifest destiny" to describe Israels rapacious land-grabbing ?

    It really is a profound and disingenuous form of denial.


    If you do not believe this behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi "lebensraum", please explain how it is not ?

    Do you purposely avoid the much more contemporary Nazi equivalent, for political reasons, to try to make Israel feel better about itself, when it steals Palestinian land and forces the Palestinians out ?

    Is that the point of it?

    alexander,

    Interesting question. I’ll try to do it justice.

    In the early days we bought land for trade goods (e.g. Manhattan). It’s good policy when you’re outnumbered by natives. Plus natives become addicted to your trade goods. Ever increasing numbers of colonists, foreign diseases, technology, rum and brandy, and trade dependancy enabled colonists to change their leverage.

    Manifest Destiny was the consensus that colonials were entitled to the full width of the continent, and no foreign power should intrude on that right. Settlement subsidization followed, and development (railroads, etc) changed native life forever. Killing natives outright was less preferable than simply making them move west and, finally onto land no one else wanted. Generally Americans lost little sleep over any moral issues. Been to a reservation lately?

    It’s not a pretty record. On the other hand, Natives weren’t always the ‘noble savages’ of legend. 17C genocidal tribal wars, slavery, and incredibly cruel torture was not infrequent. Many tribes/clans simply didn’t like each other.

    “If you do not believe this [Israeli] behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not?”

    Let me start by saying I trust you believe one of Hitler’s goals was lebensraum. Some on UNZ don’t. It’s well documented in many sources. Adolf’s vision for natives wasn’t reservations. It was extermination. First by inducing famine, exposure, or terminal forced labor. Second, by direct murder. Let Adolf speak for himself:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! …[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy…I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Nice guy wasn’t he? 20,000 – 25,000 civilians died in Warsaw that September (the same number killed by Allies at Dresden 1944). Adolf really picked up the pace after Barbarossa (22 Jun 1941). Nazi murder went wholesale.

    Let me sum up. Manifest Destiny: displacement, theft of land, limiting/ending native ways of living, and hostile military treatment (including some massacres). Nazi policy: extermination by induced or direct means.

    If you find words by an Israeli head of state, and action that reveals direct genocidal policy, I’ll gladly adopt the Lebensraum parity. Manifest Destiny seems more accurate, and it’s bad enough.

    Let me ask you a question. Why the need equate one with the other? Why drag the tired old Nazis into it? Provoking passionate reactions (for or against) usually ends rational discourse. Do you simply want to accuse Israelis of being Nazis? How does that help Palestinians?

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    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts' "Eichmann in Jerusalem" might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of "Jews" out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was 'to remove' the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the "final" solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its "unwanted" Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing "removal" and "transfer" and "demographics", and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the "Juden" problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.
    , @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I don't want to "accuse" anybody of anything.

    I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it ...to AVOID it ever happening again.

    Wouldn't you agree ?

    If there is one certainty to the most resonant narratives of the second half of the 20th century it was the abomination that Germany became, in its adoption of the totalitarian, supremacist, and militant Nazi initiatives.

    These include, above all else, the belief in lebensraum and war.

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Do you NOT agree with this assessment, Incitatus ?
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  176. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Are you just saying that the Israelis can find no justification by saying that what they are doing is at least no worse nor less justifiable as an ambition than Ĺebensraum and Manifest Destiny? If so then I would agree because it is only recently that the impulse to send one's multiplying population into new lands so that they can all be fed has been shown to be totally unnecessary. On the other hand neither Hitler's Germany nor 19th century America were threatened with extinction by neighbours so maybe the issues are just different.

    No doubt a number of the settlers would be just as genocidally racialist as Hitler's Germans proved to be in Eastern Europe but a combination of world opinion (remembering how small and weak Israel is compared to 1930s Germany), genuine humanism, and Jews being much less likely than 30s Germans to obey governments meekly i suggest are all distinguishing features that must affect the extent to which Israeli politicians can hope to exclude Palestinians from the West Bank.

    This is a fair comment wizard.

    I think the situation is different in Israel.

    Most Americans who support the settlement enterprise (and we know there are over a dozen billionaires in the US who underwrite it on a daily basis) are quite eager to make the comparison between Greater Israels settlers expanding ‘eastward’ over Palestine and the 18th (and 19th) century early American colonists expanding ‘westward’ over North America.

    This is a welcome comparison. It is almost always “encouraged” when discussions of the settlement enterprise are engaged among the elites in the power centers of the US.

    Even liberal websites like “Mondoweiss” refer to Israels expansionist tendencies as “Settler Colonialism” either deliberately or subliminally harking back to the age of Manifest Destiny which created the United States through westward expansion.

    “See”, Israelis say, “we are just like you (the US) were, two hundred years ago, same thing, different dates”.

    But everybody and their uncle , avoids, like the PLAGUE, comparisons made to the ‘odious’ Nazi “Lebensraum”.

    NO, NO, big taboo!

    What is so funny about all this, is the conscious ,deliberate “Leap-frogging” over the ENTIRE NAZI ERA, when discourse ( and comparisons) of Israeli land grabs takes place.

    Its as though “lebensraum”, the central tenet of Nazi expansionism, has simply “vanished” from history in ANY and ALL comparative discussions of Israels policies.

    For the record,the greatest distinction between “Manifest Destiny” and Israeli “land grabs”which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a “supreme international crime” to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn’t a ‘crime’ at all.

    Whereas what makes all ‘land conquering’ and ‘land taking’ a criminal act TODAY,was precisely the outcome of WWII and the universal condemnation of Nazi ‘ethnic cleansing’ and Nazi “lebensraum”.

    The hinge on the legitimacy / illegitimacy of such behavior was precisely the universal sets of laws and treaties instituted after WWII, in direct response to the Third Reich’s desire for war, conquest and domination.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    For the record,the greatest distinction between “Manifest Destiny” and Israeli “land grabs”which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a “supreme international crime” to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn’t a ‘crime’ at all.
     

    Private property was not taken by the American settler. The Jews in Palestine/Israel are taking private property. Shame shame. (The Jew in America cry bloody murder if their private property is taken.)

    The American settler and the American Indian where engaged in a clash of civilizations. One required 10,000 acres to sustain an individual, the other required 100 acres to sustain an individual. The outcome was more a matter of physics then morality. That is NOT the case in Israel.

    p.s. The number of American settlers killed by Indians and the number of Indians killed by settlers are not that far apart. The major killing of Indians was done by the US government. Shame shame.

    p.s. There were Indian treaty lands taken by government - again Shame.

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  177. Art says:
    @alexander
    This is a fair comment wizard.

    I think the situation is different in Israel.

    Most Americans who support the settlement enterprise (and we know there are over a dozen billionaires in the US who underwrite it on a daily basis) are quite eager to make the comparison between Greater Israels settlers expanding 'eastward' over Palestine and the 18th (and 19th) century early American colonists expanding 'westward' over North America.

    This is a welcome comparison. It is almost always "encouraged" when discussions of the settlement enterprise are engaged among the elites in the power centers of the US.

    Even liberal websites like "Mondoweiss" refer to Israels expansionist tendencies as "Settler Colonialism" either deliberately or subliminally harking back to the age of Manifest Destiny which created the United States through westward expansion.

    "See", Israelis say, "we are just like you (the US) were, two hundred years ago, same thing, different dates".

    But everybody and their uncle , avoids, like the PLAGUE, comparisons made to the 'odious' Nazi "Lebensraum".

    NO, NO, big taboo!

    What is so funny about all this, is the conscious ,deliberate "Leap-frogging" over the ENTIRE NAZI ERA, when discourse ( and comparisons) of Israeli land grabs takes place.

    Its as though "lebensraum", the central tenet of Nazi expansionism, has simply "vanished" from history in ANY and ALL comparative discussions of Israels policies.

    For the record,the greatest distinction between "Manifest Destiny" and Israeli "land grabs"which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a "supreme international crime" to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn't a 'crime' at all.

    Whereas what makes all 'land conquering' and 'land taking' a criminal act TODAY,was precisely the outcome of WWII and the universal condemnation of Nazi 'ethnic cleansing' and Nazi "lebensraum".

    The hinge on the legitimacy / illegitimacy of such behavior was precisely the universal sets of laws and treaties instituted after WWII, in direct response to the Third Reich's desire for war, conquest and domination.

    For the record,the greatest distinction between “Manifest Destiny” and Israeli “land grabs”which no one cares to admit, is that when the the American settlers expanded westward, even allowing for the brutal carnage of the native Americans, it was not a “supreme international crime” to do so.

    As a matter of fact, it wasn’t a ‘crime’ at all.

    Private property was not taken by the American settler. The Jews in Palestine/Israel are taking private property. Shame shame. (The Jew in America cry bloody murder if their private property is taken.)

    The American settler and the American Indian where engaged in a clash of civilizations. One required 10,000 acres to sustain an individual, the other required 100 acres to sustain an individual. The outcome was more a matter of physics then morality. That is NOT the case in Israel.

    p.s. The number of American settlers killed by Indians and the number of Indians killed by settlers are not that far apart. The major killing of Indians was done by the US government. Shame shame.

    p.s. There were Indian treaty lands taken by government – again Shame.

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  178. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    You haven't understood the first thing about current concerns have you? Perhaps the sound of chest beating prevents you hearing.

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don't seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi's article!

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!

    Unbelievable – when have I made a comment that does not lament the theft of Palestine.

    p.s. Sorry but a good number of your comments are gibberish. Too many words that cloud what you want to say.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I know you can't stand long sentences whose punctuation and subordinated clauses have to be attended to (and sometimes inferred or repaired when the writer has been careless) but it should not have been beyond you to understand that it was not your views of the treatment of and policy towards Palestinians that was in issue but your understanding of what Philip Giraldi had written - or maybe just your willingness to look beyond your own thoughts and attend to what he wrote.
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  179. Art says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I have not seen much of Palestinian Palestine. Indeed I have spent as much (small amount of) time talking to very p***ed off Bedouins in Israel as to West Bank Palestinians. But one of my Australian politician friends, a former government minister with strong principles, though belonging of course to a party which supported Israel in most things, was savage about the way he saw Palestinians treated on the West Bank.

    Nonetheless I wonder why you think it lamentable that many or most "colonists/settlers" would like to see the Palestinians emigrate voluntarily. Why wouldn't the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)? Was the creation of Liberia such an abhorrent idea (without the benefit of knowing about its late 20th century condition)? It's surely completely different from attempting to make life so unbearable that they would leave as seems to have been Hitler's original plan for German Jews.

    Why wouldn’t the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)?

    Gee – where have we heard that before?

    Art: The hate received by the Israelis from the Palestinians is totally earned. It will take generations for that hate to dissipate.

    There is only one solution – that is for the Palestinian people to sue the world’s Jews for compensation for the lose of home and freedom.

    The compensation should be so great that they will be accepted elsewhere with open arms. The compensation would be stretched out over many years.

    #108

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  180. alexander says:

    You are right on that, Art.

    The Palestinians have recognized and owned private property for generations.

    It is also my understanding they were quite adept at agricultural innovations.

    Didn’t the famous Jaffa orange emerge out of Palestine? It was considered the most stable and most delicious of all oranges…Isn’t that correct ?

    But I guess most of Jaffa is Tel Aviv now.

    (I suppose you can put that in your “shame” cap, too)

    I think you can still buy Jaffa oranges in Lebanon and Cyprus, but maybe its not quite the same .

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You are no doubt right that "Palestinians have recognised..... private property for generations" and no doubt too "owned" it in some sense. But if you are actually basing such statements on knowledge would you care to summarise your understanding of the law with respect to real or immovable property in Palestine over recent centuries. You are no doubt aware of tbe problems associated with settlements of Bedouin in the northern Negev. When I came across that and the denying of title even to former Bedouin IDF servicemen I discovered that freehold title under the Ottomans seemed to have been very limited and that, possibly, much of it was lawfully acquired around what is now Tel Aviv for the early Zionist settlers. Can you enlarge or improve on this?
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  181. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama
    As cogent an accounting of what's going on in Israel as I've seen anywhere; keenly appreciated the rapier insight with which you cut through all the bs.



    I don’t believe, in my wildest nightmares, Israel has any such ambition. Though, some of the colonists/settlers give me pause from time to time.
     
    and

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met). I think they’re more concerned with the former than the latter.

     


     
    I tip my hat.

    Thanks Sam.

    Having just finished ‘Devil’s Diary’ I have a couple entertaining Rosenberg stories/quotes typical of Third Reich ‘leadership’. I hope to share them soon, but regret my current lack of time.

    Best for the holiday.

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  182. Incitatus says:
    @iffen
    I still think the (understandable) hate hatched generation after generation in such conditions is tragic in Hellenic proportions. In short, the poison will leech out.

    Hence there can be no one state solution. The Palestinians would be an eternal 5th column. Sam says they should have equal rights and citizenship. Could they be Chief of Staff, engage in strategic planning, exercise police power in Orthodox communities, carry the football? None of that works except the eternal enemy part.

    As for two states, think Gaza on a grand scale. I suppose after the US tidies up all the states that it has built in the ME and around the world it could build a Palestinian one.

    On UNZ, that seems to attract those who’d first like to exonerate the odious Third Reich and equate it with justice for Palestinians (few of whom they’ve probably ever met).

    I have said this before. Mine is a lot cruder. These 88s don’t give a ff about the Palestinians.

    But I think Likkud wouldn’t have a chance without Uncle Sam’s indulgence and funding.

    It is nearly impossible for a reasonable opposition to get traction. Leaving aside arguments of undue influence of Jews in the media and politics, we can see that the existence of neo-Nazis which can be hung around the neck of legitimate opposition is deadly. We can see the effectiveness of this tactic currently with Clinton tying Trump to the alt-right. You have said before that you suspect SC2 is a mole. I suspect many of them. People accuse Jews of continually playing the Holocaust card, I think this neo-Nazi card is pretty potent as well.

    Hi iffen,

    To me a paradox of any ‘universal’ religious state is that the founding faith needs by definition keep a decisive majority (and remain universal). I’ve heard target figures of 80% for Israel, below which everyone gets very nervous.

    Blumenthal’s work (‘Goliath’ and ‘The 51 Day War’) make any viable one/two state solutions seem unlikely. Minimum denominational figures restrict a one state solution. I’d back Sam on the full citizenship option, but I don’t see it happening.

    I agree the two state solution is Gaza(s) on steroids, at best a Bantustan. Most options I’ve seen agree on keeping the West Bank in some form or another, few of them good for Palestinians. I think it’s wrong. I also think Manifest Destiny was wrong. In the end, it really doesn’t matter what I think. The issue lies with the Israelis and Palestinians. I don’t envy either.

    Quick thoughts on measures that might staunch some of the poison (in random order):

    • Demolition: end collective punishment or equally enforce the policy – this means demolish the houses of the terrorists that burned-to-death the Palestinian boy and the family, or end the policy once and for all;
    • Treat crimes equally: i.e. increase investigation and indictments for crimes on Palestinians (some ridiculous figure like 2% actually go to trial, and fewer result in convictions);
    • Stop ‘mowing the lawn’ (i.e. deliberate incitement and quick, overwhelming repression);
    • Highways: open restricted highways to all;
    • Checkpoints: eliminate the intrusive, unnecessary choke holds on Palestinians and give them back some dignity;
    • Tax revenues: stop using Palestinian tax retainage as a weapon to force policy compliance;
    • Water rights: distribute on a more equitable basis and eliminate preferential subsidies for exclusive groups;
    • End targeted assassination, visibly recommit to legal due process;
    • Summarily fire any cabinet minister who characterizes any minority as ‘little snakes’ or the like (especially a justice minister);
    • Demilitarize policy: force need not be the first option;
    • Tone down the rhetoric on Iran;
    • End West Bank colonization (that’s not going to happen).

    Plymouth (1620) and the Massachusetts Bay Colony (1630) were both largely religious enterprises. RCs risked death if found proselytizing. Condemnation and distrust of RCs and others endured for centuries. Eventually conditions moderated, but it took generations. It’d be nice to think that could happen in Israel sometime in the future. Who knows?

    I agree with your take on the 88s. In fact, Avery makes some of my favorite comments.

    Opposition to Likkud. It’d be great if the full range of coverage found in Haaretz, The Jerusalem Post, the Times of Israel, and other Israeli sources showed up in our press. I don’t know if that’d improve opposition chances in Israel (the politics of shrill division seem to work too well for Likkud et.al.). But at least Americans might have a chance to appreciate a much wider range of Israeli opinion.

    The confluence of our pandering representatives, AIPAC, skewed press coverage, and big contributors seems equally unhealthy for Israel and the US. I favor limiting campaign duration and restricting election funding, sunlight on contributors, contribution limits, a ban on corporate funding of any type, ending tax exemption for think tank lobbyists, reversal of Citizens United, etc.

    Though rushed by family commitments, I hope some of this makes sense.

    Best for the holiday.

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  183. Incitatus says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I have not seen much of Palestinian Palestine. Indeed I have spent as much (small amount of) time talking to very p***ed off Bedouins in Israel as to West Bank Palestinians. But one of my Australian politician friends, a former government minister with strong principles, though belonging of course to a party which supported Israel in most things, was savage about the way he saw Palestinians treated on the West Bank.

    Nonetheless I wonder why you think it lamentable that many or most "colonists/settlers" would like to see the Palestinians emigrate voluntarily. Why wouldn't the whole pacific world sigh with relief if the 100 richest people in the world made it worthwhile all round for 80 per cent of the Palestinians to move to countries that would welcome them (or the money anyway)? Was the creation of Liberia such an abhorrent idea (without the benefit of knowing about its late 20th century condition)? It's surely completely different from attempting to make life so unbearable that they would leave as seems to have been Hitler's original plan for German Jews.

    No surprise the Bedouins were upset – it seems to congenital judging by their cousins in Jordan and KSA. Jordan had to ban transporting camels in open pickups (too many fell onto the road and/or onto other vehicles). In KSA they favored the small, cheap pickups. None really acclimated to driving, so one saw wrecks lodged in the most unusual places. Other drivers regarded them as ‘kamikazes.’

    Years ago I saw Midge Decter interviewed on C-Span. She said, with a totally straight face, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. I’ve heard it many times since then. Removing their identity is the first step in a process that strips them of their rights. I’m sure Midge harbored no homicidal desire. By disconnecting them from any right to the land, she probably just wants them to go away (or, at worst, remain an invisible people). Many I’ve since seen interviewed share that attitude.

    PS. I admire you for attempting to labor in Wally’s barren vineyard. Alas, he seems intent on producing such a bitter vintage.

    All the best.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    One rationaisation for labouring in any of the barren vineyards is, especially if reclining with smartphone in hand rather than doing anything that a spouse or parent might applaud, that it allows one to apply rigorous editorial checking to one's arguments that one wants to regard as clearly correct.

    As to the Palestinians as a people I have speculated that they have been created in the last 100 years, mostly since 1947. I wonder how much Christian Palestinians identify with Muslim Palestinians now. But that is btw compared with the consequences of the explosion of Palestinian population. Given that nearly all would need to live in cities or at least large well connected towns and that any ancestral farms and villages would be unrecognisable and unavailable even for family reunions what viable possibilities are there for Palestinian Palestine?

    Maybe it would be a good start to create a number of heavily subsidised Bantustans with a view to them becoming Hong Kongs or Shenzhens. At least alcohol wouldn't be the destructive force that it is for Australian Aborigines and other pre-pre-modern people and maybe the innocently pacific business of busineas could take over. The necessary subsidies for several decades would be better than some class action type compensation.

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  184. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    alexander,

    Interesting question. I’ll try to do it justice.

    In the early days we bought land for trade goods (e.g. Manhattan). It’s good policy when you’re outnumbered by natives. Plus natives become addicted to your trade goods. Ever increasing numbers of colonists, foreign diseases, technology, rum and brandy, and trade dependancy enabled colonists to change their leverage.

    Manifest Destiny was the consensus that colonials were entitled to the full width of the continent, and no foreign power should intrude on that right. Settlement subsidization followed, and development (railroads, etc) changed native life forever. Killing natives outright was less preferable than simply making them move west and, finally onto land no one else wanted. Generally Americans lost little sleep over any moral issues. Been to a reservation lately?

    It’s not a pretty record. On the other hand, Natives weren’t always the ‘noble savages’ of legend. 17C genocidal tribal wars, slavery, and incredibly cruel torture was not infrequent. Many tribes/clans simply didn’t like each other.

    “If you do not believe this [Israeli] behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not?”
     
    Let me start by saying I trust you believe one of Hitler’s goals was lebensraum. Some on UNZ don’t. It’s well documented in many sources. Adolf’s vision for natives wasn’t reservations. It was extermination. First by inducing famine, exposure, or terminal forced labor. Second, by direct murder. Let Adolf speak for himself:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Nice guy wasn’t he? 20,000 - 25,000 civilians died in Warsaw that September (the same number killed by Allies at Dresden 1944). Adolf really picked up the pace after Barbarossa (22 Jun 1941). Nazi murder went wholesale.

    Let me sum up. Manifest Destiny: displacement, theft of land, limiting/ending native ways of living, and hostile military treatment (including some massacres). Nazi policy: extermination by induced or direct means.

    If you find words by an Israeli head of state, and action that reveals direct genocidal policy, I’ll gladly adopt the Lebensraum parity. Manifest Destiny seems more accurate, and it’s bad enough.

    Let me ask you a question. Why the need equate one with the other? Why drag the tired old Nazis into it? Provoking passionate reactions (for or against) usually ends rational discourse. Do you simply want to accuse Israelis of being Nazis? How does that help Palestinians?

    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts’ “Eichmann in Jerusalem” might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of “Jews” out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was ‘to remove’ the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the “final” solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its “unwanted” Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing “removal” and “transfer” and “demographics”, and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the “Juden” problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You seem to have changed the subject. First you bring Lebensraum then, when you don't like the answer you take on the precise dating of Hitler's move from princilally wanting to grt Jews out of Germany to his firmiing up the extermination of Jews and killing of untermenschen generally. (I have just seen a dico on the beginning of WW2 in Poland with plenty of convincing ethnic Grrman as well as Polish witnesses (including Otto Frank's son) that is consistent with that August 1939 speech to army officers in its detailing of the deliberate decapitation of Polish society so that only the lower classes would be left to do the menial work.
    , @Sam Shama
    What I think you should do first is quit your preachy tone. No one is "diddling", whatever that word is meant to convey, but "removal", "transfer" are terms that just escaped from your own rear end. I don't think you understood much at all of what I, Incitatus, Iffen or Wiz have been saying. I also think that you don't possess an iota of ability to approach geo-political subjects with an analytical eye, being stuck on your "lebensraum, lebensraum, lebensraum". What makes you think Incitatus or I haven't read Arendt? Just because he doesn't start with her premise? Do you mean to imply that your own writings are some species of brilliant historical insight?


    So what if I said "Oh right you are, Alexander! It is LEBENSRAUM!!!" Brilliant, what next?!! Any solutions or prescriptive ideas?

    It's idiotic ranting.

    , @Sam Shama
    You must be smoking some powerful botanics to even think that Israel's policy would devolve from a push for "Lebensraum" [there, happy?] to killing millions in work/death camps. You should give this nonsense a rest.
    , @Incitatus
    I note you don’t address Adolf’s:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Show me similar policy in Israel and maybe I’ll listen.

    You offer no suggestions on what Israelis and Palestinians could do to improve the situation. Not interested? You proffer rigid, phony metaphors that end discussion before it begins. Your dialectic showcases your devotion to - you guessed it - Nazi Germany. Haven't we been here before?

    I might be tempted to address your stirring interpretation of history, but you haven’t responded to Adolf’s above-mentioned quote. At the risk of being tiresome, show me any comperable Israeli policy. It seems you simply want to scourge Israelis with your version of the Horst Wessel Lied.
    , @Incitatus

    “I think you need to do your homework a little better.
    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts’ “Eichmann in Jerusalem” might help.”

     
    I read Arednt in the early 70s. As I recall, her point was how banal mass-murders were, rather like file clerks. I have news for you - even file clerks seek to minimize their crimes.

    I’m afraid to ask, but I suppose I must. Have you read Bettina Stangneth’s recent “Eichmann Before Jerusalem’? Peter Malkin’s ‘Eichmann in My Hands’? Lipstadt’s ‘The Eichmann Trial’? Wolfram Wette’s ‘The Wehrmacht’? Christopher R. Browning’s ‘Ordinary Men’, ‘The Origins of the Final Solution’, and ‘Nazi Policy, Jewish Workers, German Killers’? Richard Rhodes ‘Masters of Death’? Timothy Snyder’s ‘Black Earth’ and ‘Bloodlands’? Raul Hilberg’s ‘The Destruction of the European Jews’ (three volumes)? Rudolf Höß’s ‘Commandant of Auschwitz’? Ian Kershaw’s ‘Hitler, the Germans, and The Final Solution’?

    I’m sure you have. Helpful tip: work on your comprehension skills.
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  185. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    alexander,

    Interesting question. I’ll try to do it justice.

    In the early days we bought land for trade goods (e.g. Manhattan). It’s good policy when you’re outnumbered by natives. Plus natives become addicted to your trade goods. Ever increasing numbers of colonists, foreign diseases, technology, rum and brandy, and trade dependancy enabled colonists to change their leverage.

    Manifest Destiny was the consensus that colonials were entitled to the full width of the continent, and no foreign power should intrude on that right. Settlement subsidization followed, and development (railroads, etc) changed native life forever. Killing natives outright was less preferable than simply making them move west and, finally onto land no one else wanted. Generally Americans lost little sleep over any moral issues. Been to a reservation lately?

    It’s not a pretty record. On the other hand, Natives weren’t always the ‘noble savages’ of legend. 17C genocidal tribal wars, slavery, and incredibly cruel torture was not infrequent. Many tribes/clans simply didn’t like each other.

    “If you do not believe this [Israeli] behavior is exactly, in every way, shape and form, the equivalent to Nazi “lebensraum”, please explain how it is not?”
     
    Let me start by saying I trust you believe one of Hitler’s goals was lebensraum. Some on UNZ don’t. It’s well documented in many sources. Adolf’s vision for natives wasn’t reservations. It was extermination. First by inducing famine, exposure, or terminal forced labor. Second, by direct murder. Let Adolf speak for himself:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Nice guy wasn’t he? 20,000 - 25,000 civilians died in Warsaw that September (the same number killed by Allies at Dresden 1944). Adolf really picked up the pace after Barbarossa (22 Jun 1941). Nazi murder went wholesale.

    Let me sum up. Manifest Destiny: displacement, theft of land, limiting/ending native ways of living, and hostile military treatment (including some massacres). Nazi policy: extermination by induced or direct means.

    If you find words by an Israeli head of state, and action that reveals direct genocidal policy, I’ll gladly adopt the Lebensraum parity. Manifest Destiny seems more accurate, and it’s bad enough.

    Let me ask you a question. Why the need equate one with the other? Why drag the tired old Nazis into it? Provoking passionate reactions (for or against) usually ends rational discourse. Do you simply want to accuse Israelis of being Nazis? How does that help Palestinians?

    Incitatus,

    I don’t want to “accuse” anybody of anything.

    I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.

    Wouldn’t you agree ?

    If there is one certainty to the most resonant narratives of the second half of the 20th century it was the abomination that Germany became, in its adoption of the totalitarian, supremacist, and militant Nazi initiatives.

    These include, above all else, the belief in lebensraum and war.

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Do you NOT agree with this assessment, Incitatus ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.
     

    Gee - is that not Israel today - 2016?

    Hitler was 75 years ago - done that - what about Netanyahu and Israel today - are they not the center of endless ongoing ME wars?

    Of course the hasbara types are doing their job - diverting attention to WWII and Jews - and away from their victims the Palestinian people and the many others in the ME.

    Pushing more war - demanding more death - how do these bastards sleep?

    , @Incitatus
    alexander,

    “I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.”
     
    Another invitaion to Planet Germania, which holds you firmly in it’s embace.
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  186. @Art

    Many fear that the current strategy is for Palestine (by whatever precise definition anyone chooses) to be chipped and whittled away until, eventually, on the ground ii will be hard to see what Palestine is or might be. You don’t seem to have read or understood Mr. Giraldi’s article!
     
    Unbelievable - when have I made a comment that does not lament the theft of Palestine.

    p.s. Sorry but a good number of your comments are gibberish. Too many words that cloud what you want to say.

    I know you can’t stand long sentences whose punctuation and subordinated clauses have to be attended to (and sometimes inferred or repaired when the writer has been careless) but it should not have been beyond you to understand that it was not your views of the treatment of and policy towards Palestinians that was in issue but your understanding of what Philip Giraldi had written – or maybe just your willingness to look beyond your own thoughts and attend to what he wrote.

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  187. @alexander
    You are right on that, Art.

    The Palestinians have recognized and owned private property for generations.

    It is also my understanding they were quite adept at agricultural innovations.

    Didn't the famous Jaffa orange emerge out of Palestine? It was considered the most stable and most delicious of all oranges...Isn't that correct ?

    But I guess most of Jaffa is Tel Aviv now.

    (I suppose you can put that in your "shame" cap, too)

    I think you can still buy Jaffa oranges in Lebanon and Cyprus, but maybe its not quite the same .

    You are no doubt right that “Palestinians have recognised….. private property for generations” and no doubt too “owned” it in some sense. But if you are actually basing such statements on knowledge would you care to summarise your understanding of the law with respect to real or immovable property in Palestine over recent centuries. You are no doubt aware of tbe problems associated with settlements of Bedouin in the northern Negev. When I came across that and the denying of title even to former Bedouin IDF servicemen I discovered that freehold title under the Ottomans seemed to have been very limited and that, possibly, much of it was lawfully acquired around what is now Tel Aviv for the early Zionist settlers. Can you enlarge or improve on this?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Wizard.

    I am not familiar with the specific land titles or the history of ownership of the Negev by the Bedouin.I have not studied it so I can't comment on it .

    But, for the record, I will cite a different example that is a reasonable form of behavior.

    Lets assume a Palestinian family has owned a 40 acre farm just north of Hebron. They grows olives and have been doing so for seven generations. An Israeli farmer would really like to acquire the Palestinian land. So he makes an offer to buy it. If the Palestinian accepts the offer, fine. If he doesn't , he doesn't.

    And that's it. End of story.

    The Israeli doesn't have the RIGHT to then set the Palestinians olive trees on FIRE ,and the IDF do not have the RIGHT to then bulldoze his house, to claim the land for "target practice".

    In regards to land titles, deeds and historic surveys belonging to Palestinians, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Irgun and/or the Stern gang made sure to blow up nearly every "records office" and "building department" during the brutal ethnic cleansings' of 1948.

    This would have been done with the specific intent to exterminate the legitimacy of Palestinian claims to the lands Israel wanted to seize, and permanently "muddy the waters" on who owned what and where.

    Does this make sense to you ?
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  188. @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts' "Eichmann in Jerusalem" might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of "Jews" out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was 'to remove' the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the "final" solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its "unwanted" Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing "removal" and "transfer" and "demographics", and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the "Juden" problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

    You seem to have changed the subject. First you bring Lebensraum then, when you don’t like the answer you take on the precise dating of Hitler’s move from princilally wanting to grt Jews out of Germany to his firmiing up the extermination of Jews and killing of untermenschen generally. (I have just seen a dico on the beginning of WW2 in Poland with plenty of convincing ethnic Grrman as well as Polish witnesses (including Otto Frank’s son) that is consistent with that August 1939 speech to army officers in its detailing of the deliberate decapitation of Polish society so that only the lower classes would be left to do the menial work.

    Read More
    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @alexander
    No, I didn't change the subject, Wizard.

    I merely pointed out to Incitatus that "population transfers" of the "Juden" were the first order of business for Hitlers Germany, not liquidation, and Adolph Eichmann was the guy who facilitated it.

    Incitatus made the incorrect point that Nazi Germany, UNLIKE Israel, was interested in the Genocide not "removal" of Jews, whereas Israel is interested in the "removal" (of Palestinians) not their Genocide.

    In fact, this is totally inaccurate. Relocating the "Juden" was an industry unto itself for quite some time,in Nazi Germany. Hitler wanted Germany to be "Judenrein"( free of Jews).

    The Holocaust was the "de facto" result of Nazi Germany's inability to find places to ship the untermenchen, so they just started to kill them.

    Arendts "Eichmann in Jerusalem" fleshes it out, pretty succinctly, from the horses mouth, Eichmann himself.

    It really is quite disgusting, the whole damn thing. Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.
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  189. @Incitatus
    No surprise the Bedouins were upset - it seems to congenital judging by their cousins in Jordan and KSA. Jordan had to ban transporting camels in open pickups (too many fell onto the road and/or onto other vehicles). In KSA they favored the small, cheap pickups. None really acclimated to driving, so one saw wrecks lodged in the most unusual places. Other drivers regarded them as 'kamikazes.’

    Years ago I saw Midge Decter interviewed on C-Span. She said, with a totally straight face, there’s no such thing as a Palestinian. I’ve heard it many times since then. Removing their identity is the first step in a process that strips them of their rights. I’m sure Midge harbored no homicidal desire. By disconnecting them from any right to the land, she probably just wants them to go away (or, at worst, remain an invisible people). Many I've since seen interviewed share that attitude.

    PS. I admire you for attempting to labor in Wally’s barren vineyard. Alas, he seems intent on producing such a bitter vintage.

    All the best.

    One rationaisation for labouring in any of the barren vineyards is, especially if reclining with smartphone in hand rather than doing anything that a spouse or parent might applaud, that it allows one to apply rigorous editorial checking to one’s arguments that one wants to regard as clearly correct.

    As to the Palestinians as a people I have speculated that they have been created in the last 100 years, mostly since 1947. I wonder how much Christian Palestinians identify with Muslim Palestinians now. But that is btw compared with the consequences of the explosion of Palestinian population. Given that nearly all would need to live in cities or at least large well connected towns and that any ancestral farms and villages would be unrecognisable and unavailable even for family reunions what viable possibilities are there for Palestinian Palestine?

    Maybe it would be a good start to create a number of heavily subsidised Bantustans with a view to them becoming Hong Kongs or Shenzhens. At least alcohol wouldn’t be the destructive force that it is for Australian Aborigines and other pre-pre-modern people and maybe the innocently pacific business of busineas could take over. The necessary subsidies for several decades would be better than some class action type compensation.

    Read More
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  190. Art says:
    @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I don't want to "accuse" anybody of anything.

    I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it ...to AVOID it ever happening again.

    Wouldn't you agree ?

    If there is one certainty to the most resonant narratives of the second half of the 20th century it was the abomination that Germany became, in its adoption of the totalitarian, supremacist, and militant Nazi initiatives.

    These include, above all else, the belief in lebensraum and war.

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Do you NOT agree with this assessment, Incitatus ?

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Gee – is that not Israel today – 2016?

    Hitler was 75 years ago – done that – what about Netanyahu and Israel today – are they not the center of endless ongoing ME wars?

    Of course the hasbara types are doing their job – diverting attention to WWII and Jews – and away from their victims the Palestinian people and the many others in the ME.

    Pushing more war – demanding more death – how do these bastards sleep?

    Read More
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  191. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts' "Eichmann in Jerusalem" might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of "Jews" out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was 'to remove' the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the "final" solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its "unwanted" Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing "removal" and "transfer" and "demographics", and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the "Juden" problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

    What I think you should do first is quit your preachy tone. No one is “diddling”, whatever that word is meant to convey, but “removal”, “transfer” are terms that just escaped from your own rear end. I don’t think you understood much at all of what I, Incitatus, Iffen or Wiz have been saying. I also think that you don’t possess an iota of ability to approach geo-political subjects with an analytical eye, being stuck on your “lebensraum, lebensraum, lebensraum”. What makes you think Incitatus or I haven’t read Arendt? Just because he doesn’t start with her premise? Do you mean to imply that your own writings are some species of brilliant historical insight?

    So what if I said “Oh right you are, Alexander! It is LEBENSRAUM!!!” Brilliant, what next?!! Any solutions or prescriptive ideas?

    It’s idiotic ranting.

    Read More
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  192. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts' "Eichmann in Jerusalem" might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of "Jews" out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was 'to remove' the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the "final" solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its "unwanted" Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing "removal" and "transfer" and "demographics", and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the "Juden" problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

    You must be smoking some powerful botanics to even think that Israel’s policy would devolve from a push for “Lebensraum” [there, happy?] to killing millions in work/death camps. You should give this nonsense a rest.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking "powerful botanicals" for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my "preachy tone". please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the "democratic state" in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The "diddling" I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe "Greater"Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite 'put off ' by your "out of the gate" certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted "terror groups" a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with "predisposed" ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

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  193. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    You are no doubt right that "Palestinians have recognised..... private property for generations" and no doubt too "owned" it in some sense. But if you are actually basing such statements on knowledge would you care to summarise your understanding of the law with respect to real or immovable property in Palestine over recent centuries. You are no doubt aware of tbe problems associated with settlements of Bedouin in the northern Negev. When I came across that and the denying of title even to former Bedouin IDF servicemen I discovered that freehold title under the Ottomans seemed to have been very limited and that, possibly, much of it was lawfully acquired around what is now Tel Aviv for the early Zionist settlers. Can you enlarge or improve on this?

    Wizard.

    I am not familiar with the specific land titles or the history of ownership of the Negev by the Bedouin.I have not studied it so I can’t comment on it .

    But, for the record, I will cite a different example that is a reasonable form of behavior.

    Lets assume a Palestinian family has owned a 40 acre farm just north of Hebron. They grows olives and have been doing so for seven generations. An Israeli farmer would really like to acquire the Palestinian land. So he makes an offer to buy it. If the Palestinian accepts the offer, fine. If he doesn’t , he doesn’t.

    And that’s it. End of story.

    The Israeli doesn’t have the RIGHT to then set the Palestinians olive trees on FIRE ,and the IDF do not have the RIGHT to then bulldoze his house, to claim the land for “target practice”.

    In regards to land titles, deeds and historic surveys belonging to Palestinians, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Irgun and/or the Stern gang made sure to blow up nearly every “records office” and “building department” during the brutal ethnic cleansings’ of 1948.

    This would have been done with the specific intent to exterminate the legitimacy of Palestinian claims to the lands Israel wanted to seize, and permanently “muddy the waters” on who owned what and where.

    Does this make sense to you ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Yes, if there were land titles or records such as you hypothesise I have to agree with you that it would have been amongst the Stern Gang's and Irgun's minor crimes, and perfectly rational for them to have destroyed those records. But I am still curious about the title situation. From my imperfect knowledge I think the likelihood of there being any formal title at law for the Palestinians who had olive groves might have been slight but I wouldn't be surprised if long possession wasn't recognised as giving a form of ownership that the courts would protect both under the mandate and under the Ottomans before them. Still the seventh generation olive growers would have been a small minority of the Arab population of Palestine by the 1940s.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    The nomadic Bedouin were split amongst several nations when national borders were created in the former Ottoman Empire. Apparently 17000 in Israel in 1949 have become 250,000 now and they tend to live in shanty towns where the leading males may all have several wives bearing children and drawing welfare benefits. You could regard it as one of those problems the generally able people running Israel have allowed to creep up on them without their paying attention while they attended to more urgent or immediately important problems (unfortunately including negotiating coalitions with small extremist parties....). I think the Ethiopian (Falasha) population is about half that of the Bedouin btw & fwiw.
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  194. Karl says:
    @Jeremy R. Hammond
    Karl, you say my statement that the CIA noted that Egypt's forces had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai is "incorrect". The facts are as I've stated them. Here's a relevant excerpt from the book:

    Indeed, on May 23, 1967, Director of Central Intelligence Richard Helms presented President Lyndon B. Johnson with the CIA’s assessment that, in the event of war, Israel could “defend successfully against simultaneous Arab attacks on all fronts … or hold on any three fronts while mounting successfully a major offensive on the fourth.” In a document titled “Military Capabilities of Israel and the Arab States”, the CIA assessed that “Israel could almost certainly attain air supremacy over the Sinai Peninsula in less than 24 hours after taking the initiative or in two or three days if the UAR [the United Arab Republic, as Egypt was then known] struck first.” The latter, however, was judged unlikely to occur. The CIA also assessed that the Egyptian military had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai Peninsula, which Israel’s military would have little trouble breaching: “Armored striking forces could breach the UAR’s double defense line in the Sinai in three to four days and drive the Egyptians west of the Suez Canal in seven to nine days. Israel could contain any attacks by Syria or Jordan during this period.” Although the Arabs had numerical superiority in terms of military hardware, “Nonetheless, the IDF maintain qualitative superiority over the Arab armed forces in almost all aspects of combat operations.”

    The Mossad nevertheless relayed an intelligence estimate to Washington claiming that Israel would be outgunned. The CIA’s response was to inform policymakers, “We do not believe that the Israeli appreciation … was a serious estimate of the sort they would submit to their own high officials”; rather, it was “probably a gambit intended to influence the US” to “provide military supplies”, “make more public commitments to Israel”, “approve Israeli military initiatives”, and “put more pressure on Nasser.” President Johnson wasn’t buying it; he told Israeli Foreign Minister Abba Eban, “All of our intelligence people are unanimous that if the UAR attacks, you will whip hell out of them.” But it was clear to the US intelligence community that it would be Israel, not Egypt, who would start the war. Helms sent a message to Johnson on June 2 correctly predicting that Israel would likely launch its planned attack within a matter of days.
     
    Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA, had taken up defensive positions in the Sinai.

    > Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA

    tell that story to the longshoremen in Eilat who were laid off for the duration of the blockade.

    We will not trust our children’s lives to CIA estimates.

    If you want to do that…. go for it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jeremy R. Hammond

    We will not trust our children’s lives to CIA estimates.
     
    And, like I also said, Israel's own intelligence assessed there was no threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel. Another relevant excerpt from Obstacle to Peace (the paragraph just preceding the above excerpt regarding the US's intelligence assessment):

    Oren himself documented in his book that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian first-strike on Israel, much less a genocidal threat to Israel’s very existence. “Had Egypt intended to attack Israel immediately,” he wrote a couple of pages later, “the army’s advance into Sinai would have been conducted as quietly as possible, at night. Instead, by acting conspicuously, [Egyptian President Gamal Abdel] Nasser sent a double message to Israel: Egypt had no aggressive designs, but neither would it suffer any Israeli aggression against Syria.” Oren admitted further that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”. To launch an attack on Israel under present conditions, “Nasser would have to be deranged”; the conditions under which a sane Nasser might do so were “most unlikely” to occur.
     
    Israel's attack on Egypt on June 5 was, under international law, aggression, "the supreme international crime" as defined at Nuremberg.
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  195. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    You seem to have changed the subject. First you bring Lebensraum then, when you don't like the answer you take on the precise dating of Hitler's move from princilally wanting to grt Jews out of Germany to his firmiing up the extermination of Jews and killing of untermenschen generally. (I have just seen a dico on the beginning of WW2 in Poland with plenty of convincing ethnic Grrman as well as Polish witnesses (including Otto Frank's son) that is consistent with that August 1939 speech to army officers in its detailing of the deliberate decapitation of Polish society so that only the lower classes would be left to do the menial work.

    No, I didn’t change the subject, Wizard.

    I merely pointed out to Incitatus that “population transfers” of the “Juden” were the first order of business for Hitlers Germany, not liquidation, and Adolph Eichmann was the guy who facilitated it.

    Incitatus made the incorrect point that Nazi Germany, UNLIKE Israel, was interested in the Genocide not “removal” of Jews, whereas Israel is interested in the “removal” (of Palestinians) not their Genocide.

    In fact, this is totally inaccurate. Relocating the “Juden” was an industry unto itself for quite some time,in Nazi Germany. Hitler wanted Germany to be “Judenrein”( free of Jews).

    The Holocaust was the “de facto” result of Nazi Germany’s inability to find places to ship the untermenchen, so they just started to kill them.

    Arendts “Eichmann in Jerusalem” fleshes it out, pretty succinctly, from the horses mouth, Eichmann himself.

    It really is quite disgusting, the whole damn thing. Makes me sick to my stomach thinking about it.

    Read More
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  196. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama
    You must be smoking some powerful botanics to even think that Israel's policy would devolve from a push for "Lebensraum" [there, happy?] to killing millions in work/death camps. You should give this nonsense a rest.

    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking “powerful botanicals” for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my “preachy tone”. please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The “diddling” I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe “Greater”Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite ‘put off ‘ by your “out of the gate” certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted “terror groups” a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with “predisposed” ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Where is there any sign that a Palestinian polity is likely (that is >50% probability) to be a viable entity like say Singapore, Hong Kong or even Macau?

    OK to maintain consistency I think they might be able to make a go of a collection of city states heavily subsidised for 30 years and with business friendly constitutions.

    , @Incitatus
    alexander

    "It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with “predisposed” ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.”
     
    Thank you. It’s the best example of projection I’ve seen in some time.
    , @Sam Shama

    [The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?]
     
    It matters not at all what I wish. Its simple enough for me to sit here on a New York morning, tap the keyboard and proclaim that Jews, as we had in the past, can cohabit as a minority in a muslim majority state. But you see, I am not the one living there [although I did for months at a stretch in the past]. There is not a chance of the Israeli population, as far as the eye can see, of accepting a condition where they are a minority; the odds are even vanishingly smaller that Hamas, Hezbollah etc. would simply allow for an orderly large scale population movement, were the RoR instituted, without inflicting bloodshed of the type reminiscent of the killing fields. Why you ask? Since most of these terrorist organisations would have absolutely nothing to do with a negotiated peace.

    Their entire raison d'etre, their funding, is inextricably bound to a permanent refugee class in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. Just as Incitatus remarked in one of his earlier posts, Palestinians were actually accepted and viewed with sympathy and welcomed in some of the Gulf nations. No longer. No Arab nation wants them for fear of contaminating their native populations with Palestinian angst, militancy and fervour. So the KSA [among the many other great things they do], Iran and others, are perfectly content to send monies to Hamas, Hezbollah and other smaller irritants to maintain a constant state of manageable turmoil.

    And you have Likkud in Israel. A conglomerate of hard-line, ultra religious nuts who would not countenance any compromise. You also have a large secular population whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building, and a thriving one which compares favourably with Europe but beset with a paucity of land. A people which has built a state, does not voluntarily hand over its controls to another on an appeal to morality alone.

    Which is why I think, hard as it may be, an U.S. led initiative to vest the WBPals with citizenship w/o the RoR is possibly the most realistic scenario.
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  197. @alexander
    Wizard.

    I am not familiar with the specific land titles or the history of ownership of the Negev by the Bedouin.I have not studied it so I can't comment on it .

    But, for the record, I will cite a different example that is a reasonable form of behavior.

    Lets assume a Palestinian family has owned a 40 acre farm just north of Hebron. They grows olives and have been doing so for seven generations. An Israeli farmer would really like to acquire the Palestinian land. So he makes an offer to buy it. If the Palestinian accepts the offer, fine. If he doesn't , he doesn't.

    And that's it. End of story.

    The Israeli doesn't have the RIGHT to then set the Palestinians olive trees on FIRE ,and the IDF do not have the RIGHT to then bulldoze his house, to claim the land for "target practice".

    In regards to land titles, deeds and historic surveys belonging to Palestinians, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Irgun and/or the Stern gang made sure to blow up nearly every "records office" and "building department" during the brutal ethnic cleansings' of 1948.

    This would have been done with the specific intent to exterminate the legitimacy of Palestinian claims to the lands Israel wanted to seize, and permanently "muddy the waters" on who owned what and where.

    Does this make sense to you ?

    Yes, if there were land titles or records such as you hypothesise I have to agree with you that it would have been amongst the Stern Gang’s and Irgun’s minor crimes, and perfectly rational for them to have destroyed those records. But I am still curious about the title situation. From my imperfect knowledge I think the likelihood of there being any formal title at law for the Palestinians who had olive groves might have been slight but I wouldn’t be surprised if long possession wasn’t recognised as giving a form of ownership that the courts would protect both under the mandate and under the Ottomans before them. Still the seventh generation olive growers would have been a small minority of the Arab population of Palestine by the 1940s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    You may be right on that,Wizard.

    I simply don't know enough about it, to state a case in either direction.
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  198. @alexander
    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking "powerful botanicals" for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my "preachy tone". please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the "democratic state" in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The "diddling" I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe "Greater"Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite 'put off ' by your "out of the gate" certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted "terror groups" a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with "predisposed" ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

    Where is there any sign that a Palestinian polity is likely (that is >50% probability) to be a viable entity like say Singapore, Hong Kong or even Macau?

    OK to maintain consistency I think they might be able to make a go of a collection of city states heavily subsidised for 30 years and with business friendly constitutions.

    Read More
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  199. Incitatus says:
    @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I think you need to do your homework a little better.

    Perhaps a quick read through of Hannah Arendts' "Eichmann in Jerusalem" might help .

    The central point was that TRANSFER of "Jews" out of Nazi Germany was the initial Nazi plan, NOT genocide.

    Adolf Eichmann was the lead bureaucrat in charge of the whole operation.

    The original plan of the Nazis was 'to remove' the Jews from Germany, not kill them.

    Tragically, genocide, we all know, did indeed become the "final" solution.

    This should be a cautionary tale for how Israel treats its "unwanted" Palestinians.

    I am shocked how it passes over your and Sams heads, wholly unnoticed.

    Both you and Sam have been diddling about, discussing "removal" and "transfer" and "demographics", and are completely oblivious to how similar you sound to how the Nazis treated the "Juden" problem.

    Pretty shameful stuff, if I do say so myself.

    I note you don’t address Adolf’s:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! …[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy…I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Show me similar policy in Israel and maybe I’ll listen.

    You offer no suggestions on what Israelis and Palestinians could do to improve the situation. Not interested? You proffer rigid, phony metaphors that end discussion before it begins. Your dialectic showcases your devotion to – you guessed it – Nazi Germany. Haven’t we been here before?

    I might be tempted to address your stirring interpretation of history, but you haven’t responded to Adolf’s above-mentioned quote. At the risk of being tiresome, show me any comperable Israeli policy. It seems you simply want to scourge Israelis with your version of the Horst Wessel Lied.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Incitatus,

    your comment:

    "Show me a similar policy in Israel and maybe I will listen"

    Hmmmm....

    How about the infamous quote from our good Mr. Arnon Sofer ,whose chief occupation seemed to be diagnosing the eternal demographic threat presented by the Palestinians. He was/is known among many (within the Knesset) as the "Arab counter".

    ".....We will have to KILL and KILL and KILL. All day, Every day.if we don't KILL we will cease to exist."

    Doesn't sound like a "policy" of transfer to me, does it sound like one to you ?
    , @alexander
    For the record, Incitatus,

    I have offered numerous times ,on the Unz review, a way forward, in peace, for everyone.

    I have dealt with every single outstanding issue to the conflict, that I know of.

    If you would like me to restate it, I will.
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  200. Incitatus says:
    @alexander
    Incitatus,

    I don't want to "accuse" anybody of anything.

    I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it ...to AVOID it ever happening again.

    Wouldn't you agree ?

    If there is one certainty to the most resonant narratives of the second half of the 20th century it was the abomination that Germany became, in its adoption of the totalitarian, supremacist, and militant Nazi initiatives.

    These include, above all else, the belief in lebensraum and war.

    It is a horrible thing when a country is overwhelmed with false propaganda and led into committing heinous crimes like war of aggression, ethnic cleansing, the transfer and warehousing of unwanted ethnic groups, mass surveillance, gestapo like police procedures, and a militant belief in the exceptional power of the state to both supplant the supreme rights of the individual and to endeavor to conquer the world.

    This is the exact definition of what Germany became, under Hitler.

    Do you NOT agree with this assessment, Incitatus ?

    alexander,

    “I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.”

    Another invitaion to Planet Germania, which holds you firmly in it’s embace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Hmmm, Incitatus.

    Sounds like a bit of denial on your part? Wouldn't you say?

    If you cannot face up to what Germany became under Adolph Hitler, how can you face up to a militant totalitarian fascism emerging anywhere ?
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  201. @alexander
    Wizard.

    I am not familiar with the specific land titles or the history of ownership of the Negev by the Bedouin.I have not studied it so I can't comment on it .

    But, for the record, I will cite a different example that is a reasonable form of behavior.

    Lets assume a Palestinian family has owned a 40 acre farm just north of Hebron. They grows olives and have been doing so for seven generations. An Israeli farmer would really like to acquire the Palestinian land. So he makes an offer to buy it. If the Palestinian accepts the offer, fine. If he doesn't , he doesn't.

    And that's it. End of story.

    The Israeli doesn't have the RIGHT to then set the Palestinians olive trees on FIRE ,and the IDF do not have the RIGHT to then bulldoze his house, to claim the land for "target practice".

    In regards to land titles, deeds and historic surveys belonging to Palestinians, I would not be surprised, at all, if the Irgun and/or the Stern gang made sure to blow up nearly every "records office" and "building department" during the brutal ethnic cleansings' of 1948.

    This would have been done with the specific intent to exterminate the legitimacy of Palestinian claims to the lands Israel wanted to seize, and permanently "muddy the waters" on who owned what and where.

    Does this make sense to you ?

    The nomadic Bedouin were split amongst several nations when national borders were created in the former Ottoman Empire. Apparently 17000 in Israel in 1949 have become 250,000 now and they tend to live in shanty towns where the leading males may all have several wives bearing children and drawing welfare benefits. You could regard it as one of those problems the generally able people running Israel have allowed to creep up on them without their paying attention while they attended to more urgent or immediately important problems (unfortunately including negotiating coalitions with small extremist parties….). I think the Ethiopian (Falasha) population is about half that of the Bedouin btw & fwiw.

    Read More
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  202. Incitatus says:
    @alexander
    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking "powerful botanicals" for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my "preachy tone". please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the "democratic state" in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The "diddling" I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe "Greater"Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite 'put off ' by your "out of the gate" certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted "terror groups" a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with "predisposed" ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

    alexander

    “It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with “predisposed” ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.”

    Thank you. It’s the best example of projection I’ve seen in some time.

    Read More
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  203. @Karl
    > Like I said, Egyptian forces, as observed by the CIA


    tell that story to the longshoremen in Eilat who were laid off for the duration of the blockade.

    We will not trust our children's lives to CIA estimates.

    If you want to do that.... go for it.

    We will not trust our children’s lives to CIA estimates.

    And, like I also said, Israel’s own intelligence assessed there was no threat of an Egyptian attack on Israel. Another relevant excerpt from Obstacle to Peace (the paragraph just preceding the above excerpt regarding the US’s intelligence assessment):

    Oren himself documented in his book that there was no imminent threat of an Egyptian first-strike on Israel, much less a genocidal threat to Israel’s very existence. “Had Egypt intended to attack Israel immediately,” he wrote a couple of pages later, “the army’s advance into Sinai would have been conducted as quietly as possible, at night. Instead, by acting conspicuously, [Egyptian President Gamal Abdel] Nasser sent a double message to Israel: Egypt had no aggressive designs, but neither would it suffer any Israeli aggression against Syria.” Oren admitted further that “By all reports Israel received from the Americans, and according to its own intelligence, Nasser had no interest in bloodshed”. To launch an attack on Israel under present conditions, “Nasser would have to be deranged”; the conditions under which a sane Nasser might do so were “most unlikely” to occur.

    Israel’s attack on Egypt on June 5 was, under international law, aggression, “the supreme international crime” as defined at Nuremberg.

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  204. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander
    You know, Sam,

    Sometimes I wish I had been smoking "powerful botanicals" for the last twenty years, not having my nose to the grind , trying to flesh all this sh#t out.

    But on your last comment to me about my "preachy tone". please lets not make me the overlord in the equation, because I am not.

    Your comments about resolving the Palestine/Israel issues seem to center around demographics.

    The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the "democratic state" in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?

    The "diddling" I was referring to, is your back and forth with Incitatus on the threshold tolerances for Palestinian (demographic) inclusion.

    As though Maybe "Greater"Israel (the Greater Jewish state) could withstand a 20% minority of Palestinians, but not much more.

    I get it, I see it, I understand it.

    I was also quite 'put off ' by your "out of the gate" certainty the Palestinians could simply not manage a state of their own, that it would devolve, ever so rapidly, into a breeding ground for thousands of sorted "terror groups" a la Gaza, and nothing more.

    This is the most base form of supremacist claptrap one can read.

    It really is a sad state of affairs when ones mind is so littered with "predisposed" ideologies, it cannot get itself off the mat.

    Pretty disappointing ,Sam, I have to say.

    [The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?]

    It matters not at all what I wish. Its simple enough for me to sit here on a New York morning, tap the keyboard and proclaim that Jews, as we had in the past, can cohabit as a minority in a muslim majority state. But you see, I am not the one living there [although I did for months at a stretch in the past]. There is not a chance of the Israeli population, as far as the eye can see, of accepting a condition where they are a minority; the odds are even vanishingly smaller that Hamas, Hezbollah etc. would simply allow for an orderly large scale population movement, were the RoR instituted, without inflicting bloodshed of the type reminiscent of the killing fields. Why you ask? Since most of these terrorist organisations would have absolutely nothing to do with a negotiated peace.

    Their entire raison d’etre, their funding, is inextricably bound to a permanent refugee class in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. Just as Incitatus remarked in one of his earlier posts, Palestinians were actually accepted and viewed with sympathy and welcomed in some of the Gulf nations. No longer. No Arab nation wants them for fear of contaminating their native populations with Palestinian angst, militancy and fervour. So the KSA [among the many other great things they do], Iran and others, are perfectly content to send monies to Hamas, Hezbollah and other smaller irritants to maintain a constant state of manageable turmoil.

    And you have Likkud in Israel. A conglomerate of hard-line, ultra religious nuts who would not countenance any compromise. You also have a large secular population whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building, and a thriving one which compares favourably with Europe but beset with a paucity of land. A people which has built a state, does not voluntarily hand over its controls to another on an appeal to morality alone.

    Which is why I think, hard as it may be, an U.S. led initiative to vest the WBPals with citizenship w/o the RoR is possibly the most realistic scenario.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I agree with most of your points, Sam.

    But I don't see how allowing the right of Palestinians refugees to return to the homes they were forced out of, in 1948, would unleash a killing fields scenario emanating from either Hezbollah or Hamas ?

    It really doesn't make any sense.

    Hezbollah was founded as a highly capable guerilla group, whose primary function was to PUSH Israel out of Southern Lebanon.(why Israel sought to conquer southern Lebanon in the first place,is anyone's guess)

    I would imagine they, as well as Hamas, would be happy as clams if the Palestinians were allowed to return to their lands in peace.

    It would be a cause for celebration among the entire Arab world.

    If I see a killing fields scenario,emanating from anywhere, its from the IDF ,to "mow the lawn" once and for all, of all the returning Palestinians, rather than let them reclaim their homes and upend the sacred demographic of Israels Jewish majority.

    This makes all the sense in the world, to me.

    It doesn't to you ?
    , @Art
    You also have a large secular population (i.e., Israelis) whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building

    Hey Shama - nice bate and switch hasbara.

    Here is Jew "nation building" --- here is the face of the Jew that Palestinians see.


    Neglecting settlers violence

    Published on Aug 31, 2016
    In contradiction of extremely low conviction rates, settler violence against Palestinians is at least a weekly occurrence in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Us_WN0Q9KQY
     

    This stench is on you.
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  205. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Yes, if there were land titles or records such as you hypothesise I have to agree with you that it would have been amongst the Stern Gang's and Irgun's minor crimes, and perfectly rational for them to have destroyed those records. But I am still curious about the title situation. From my imperfect knowledge I think the likelihood of there being any formal title at law for the Palestinians who had olive groves might have been slight but I wouldn't be surprised if long possession wasn't recognised as giving a form of ownership that the courts would protect both under the mandate and under the Ottomans before them. Still the seventh generation olive growers would have been a small minority of the Arab population of Palestine by the 1940s.

    You may be right on that,Wizard.

    I simply don’t know enough about it, to state a case in either direction.

    Read More
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  206. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    I note you don’t address Adolf’s:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Show me similar policy in Israel and maybe I’ll listen.

    You offer no suggestions on what Israelis and Palestinians could do to improve the situation. Not interested? You proffer rigid, phony metaphors that end discussion before it begins. Your dialectic showcases your devotion to - you guessed it - Nazi Germany. Haven't we been here before?

    I might be tempted to address your stirring interpretation of history, but you haven’t responded to Adolf’s above-mentioned quote. At the risk of being tiresome, show me any comperable Israeli policy. It seems you simply want to scourge Israelis with your version of the Horst Wessel Lied.

    Incitatus,

    your comment:

    “Show me a similar policy in Israel and maybe I will listen”

    Hmmmm….

    How about the infamous quote from our good Mr. Arnon Sofer ,whose chief occupation seemed to be diagnosing the eternal demographic threat presented by the Palestinians. He was/is known among many (within the Knesset) as the “Arab counter”.

    “…..We will have to KILL and KILL and KILL. All day, Every day.if we don’t KILL we will cease to exist.”

    Doesn’t sound like a “policy” of transfer to me, does it sound like one to you ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Nah.....It won't wash. A mad Baruch Goldstein type in the Knesset that hardly anyone's heard of versus the Chancellor of the German Reich!
    , @Incitatus
    Was Sofer (as commander) instructing the IDF general staff? Did they slaughter 20,000-25,000 civilians within a single city the same month? And millions in the following years?

    You’ll have to better, alexander.
    , @Sam Shama

    "President Obama is going to 'come out and throw a lot of spears' at Tuesday's upcoming debate."

    That's an interesting choice of words from former Governor Sanford. In fact, it is a phrase that we've never heard used to describe debate.

    "[Illegal Immigrants] can go out there and multiply like rats I guess." - Assemblyman Curry Todd

    "Boy."

    This was the term Jeff Sessions used to address one of his judicial assistants who was well over eighteen and happened to be African-American.

    Then there are the luminaries like Robert Byrd, Grand Master of the KKK or something. The list can go on and on.
     

    So would you Alexander, then call the USA, from north to south, east to west, a racist nation ruled by a racist government?
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  207. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    [The clearest priority you have, is for the newly formed Greater Israel to maintain a substantial majority of Jews.

    Allowing the several million Palestinian refugees(and their descendants) to return home, is a nonstarter for you, for the very simple fact it would thoroughly upend the demographics of the “democratic state” in favor of the Palestinians.

    Jews will never ALLOW themselves to become the minority party in a Greater Israel.

    Right ?]
     
    It matters not at all what I wish. Its simple enough for me to sit here on a New York morning, tap the keyboard and proclaim that Jews, as we had in the past, can cohabit as a minority in a muslim majority state. But you see, I am not the one living there [although I did for months at a stretch in the past]. There is not a chance of the Israeli population, as far as the eye can see, of accepting a condition where they are a minority; the odds are even vanishingly smaller that Hamas, Hezbollah etc. would simply allow for an orderly large scale population movement, were the RoR instituted, without inflicting bloodshed of the type reminiscent of the killing fields. Why you ask? Since most of these terrorist organisations would have absolutely nothing to do with a negotiated peace.

    Their entire raison d'etre, their funding, is inextricably bound to a permanent refugee class in Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt and Gaza. Just as Incitatus remarked in one of his earlier posts, Palestinians were actually accepted and viewed with sympathy and welcomed in some of the Gulf nations. No longer. No Arab nation wants them for fear of contaminating their native populations with Palestinian angst, militancy and fervour. So the KSA [among the many other great things they do], Iran and others, are perfectly content to send monies to Hamas, Hezbollah and other smaller irritants to maintain a constant state of manageable turmoil.

    And you have Likkud in Israel. A conglomerate of hard-line, ultra religious nuts who would not countenance any compromise. You also have a large secular population whose DNA consists of the heritage of nation building, and a thriving one which compares favourably with Europe but beset with a paucity of land. A people which has built a state, does not voluntarily hand over its controls to another on an appeal to morality alone.

    Which is why I think, hard as it may be, an U.S. led initiative to vest the WBPals with citizenship w/o the RoR is possibly the most realistic scenario.

    I agree with most of your points, Sam.

    But I don’t see how allowing the right of Palestinians refugees to return to the homes they were forced out of, in 1948, would unleash a killing fields scenario emanating from either Hezbollah or Hamas ?

    It really doesn’t make any sense.

    Hezbollah was founded as a highly capable guerilla group, whose primary function was to PUSH Israel out of Southern Lebanon.(why Israel sought to conquer southern Lebanon in the first place,is anyone’s guess)

    I would imagine they, as well as Hamas, would be happy as clams if the Palestinians were allowed to return to their lands in peace.

    It would be a cause for celebration among the entire Arab world.

    If I see a killing fields scenario,emanating from anywhere, its from the IDF ,to “mow the lawn” once and for all, of all the returning Palestinians, rather than let them reclaim their homes and upend the sacred demographic of Israels Jewish majority.

    This makes all the sense in the world, to me.

    It doesn’t to you ?

    Read More
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  208. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    alexander,

    “I want us all to LOOK at what happened, honestly, to Germany under the Nazi regime, that we should all UNDERSTAND it …to AVOID it ever happening again.”
     
    Another invitaion to Planet Germania, which holds you firmly in it’s embace.

    Hmmm, Incitatus.

    Sounds like a bit of denial on your part? Wouldn’t you say?

    If you cannot face up to what Germany became under Adolph Hitler, how can you face up to a militant totalitarian fascism emerging anywhere ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus

    “If you cannot face up to what Germany became under Adolph Hitler, how can you face up to a militant totalitarian fascism emerging anywhere?”
     
    Yet another one-way ticket to your first love - Nazi Germany. Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Führer?

    As I said in #199, you haven’t come up with comparable people/policies. Let me guess. Kindly Adolf didn’t mean it, or his generals (in this case only) ignored his commands. He wanted natives to depart for picturesque eastern Edens, and Jews to Madagascar.

    Prove it.

    By the way, its ‘Adolf’, not ‘Adolph’.
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  209. alexander says:
    @Incitatus
    I note you don’t address Adolf’s:

    “Close your hearts to pity! Act brutally!..Be harsh and remorseless! Be steeled against all signs of compassion! ...[I want] the physical annihilation of the enemy...I have put my Death’s Head formations at the lead with the command to send man, woman, and child of Polish descent and language to their deaths, pitilessly and remorselessly.”-Adolf Hitler address to military commanders 21 Aug 1939

    Show me similar policy in Israel and maybe I’ll listen.

    You offer no suggestions on what Israelis and Palestinians could do to improve the situation. Not interested? You proffer rigid, phony metaphors that end discussion before it begins. Your dialectic showcases your devotion to - you guessed it - Nazi Germany. Haven't we been here before?

    I might be tempted to address your stirring interpretation of history, but you haven’t responded to Adolf’s above-mentioned quote. At the risk of being tiresome, show me any comperable Israeli policy. It seems you simply want to scourge Israelis with your version of the Horst Wessel Lied.

    For the record, Incitatus,

    I have offered numerous times ,on the Unz review, a way forward, in peace, for everyone.

    I have dealt with every single outstanding issue to the conflict, that I know of.

    If you would like me to restate it, I will.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Incitatus

    “I have offered numerous times ,on the Unz review, a way forward, in peace, for everyone.
    I have dealt with every single outstanding issue to the conflict, that I know of.
    If you would like me to restate it, I will.”

     
    Please, by all means.
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  210. @alexander
    Incitatus,

    your comment:

    "Show me a similar policy in Israel and maybe I will listen"

    Hmmmm....

    How about the infamous quote from our good Mr. Arnon Sofer ,whose chief occupation seemed to be diagnosing the eternal demographic threat presented by the Palestinians. He was/is known among many (within the Knesset) as the "Arab counter".

    ".....We will have to KILL and KILL and KILL. All day, Every day.if we don't KILL we will cease to exist."

    Doesn't sound like a "policy" of transfer to me, does it sound like one to you ?

    Nah…..It won’t wash. A mad Baruch Goldstein type in the Knesset that hardly anyone’s heard of versus the Chancellor of the German Reich!

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Perhaps you, Sam and Incitatus should all spend the twenty minutes to view David Sheen's testimony before the Russell tribunal in 2014, it does a much better job in pulling back the curtain on these"supremacist" tendencies which have been bubbling up in Israel for quite some time.

    The link is posted on You tube . Its "David Sheen- Russell Tribunal -2014"


    It's very easy to access.

    It is shocking in its forthrightness, and even more shocking in its recounting of how the "Children of the Holocaust" are beginning to behave.

    Not a pretty picture.
    , @SolontoCroesus
    Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?

    According to Josef Goebbels' diary, Hitler was not in Berlin on Aug 22 1939, he was at his private, mountain retreat in Berghof. Hitler did not meet with his military commanders at Berghof but in Berlin.

    Since we know beyond a doubt that a lot of lies and false "quotes" have been attributed to Hitler, it's important to fully authenticate a statement, especially one such as the one you cited, upon which so much of your argument depends.
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  211. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Nah.....It won't wash. A mad Baruch Goldstein type in the Knesset that hardly anyone's heard of versus the Chancellor of the German Reich!

    Perhaps you, Sam and Incitatus should all spend the twenty minutes to view David Sheen’s testimony before the Russell tribunal in 2014, it does a much better job in pulling back the curtain on these”supremacist” tendencies which have been bubbling up in Israel for quite some time.

    The link is posted on You tube . Its “David Sheen- Russell Tribunal -2014″

    It’s very easy to access.

    It is shocking in its forthrightness, and even more shocking in its recounting of how the “Children of the Holocaust” are beginning to behave.

    Not a pretty picture.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I may get round to it but I don't need it to convince me that there are a lot of nasty savages in Israel. I will take some convincing though that government policy is anywhere near that of the Nazis or could become so (accepting that nothing is impossible...). As I hsve said there is far more free speech and dissent in Israel, there is genuine liberalism and they are a small country which can't afford to outrage all other countries.
    , @Sam Shama
    I am really beginning to believe that you Alexander, are engaged in some sort of organised and planned bs. David Sheen?!! Are you serious? I don't want to waste my time writing a lengthy reply, but he is a liar and a really stupid one at that. He dupes American audiences by completely misrepresenting Hebrew language articles. Do you read Hebrew? If you did I could send you the articles he linked to, and you'd see what a halfwit slimeball he is. Enough.

    Listen there are lunatics in the settler community to be sure, even a large number of them, but this fellow Sheen went around saying things he attributed to Netanyahu [not a saint] which any person with their wits about them, WOULD KNOW, NO SANE PM WOULD UTTER!!. And no matter what you think of Netanyahu, he is not stupid nor insane.
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  212. @Wizard of Oz
    Nah.....It won't wash. A mad Baruch Goldstein type in the Knesset that hardly anyone's heard of versus the Chancellor of the German Reich!

    Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?

    According to Josef Goebbels’ diary, Hitler was not in Berlin on Aug 22 1939, he was at his private, mountain retreat in Berghof. Hitler did not meet with his military commanders at Berghof but in Berlin.

    Since we know beyond a doubt that a lot of lies and false “quotes” have been attributed to Hitler, it’s important to fully authenticate a statement, especially one such as the one you cited, upon which so much of your argument depends.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I am sure you have noticed that Incitatus producedcthe quote and I have merely picked it up with the observation that it is significant enough for Alexander to need to deal with - assuming it to be a true quote in the absence of challenge. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if it was made up. Indeed it is almost too perfect a specimen.

    It's almost worse if he didn't say it because it would tend to justify the great Prof Holdswotth's dedication of the 1945 volume of his History of English Law in which he referred to the incorrigible savagery of the German race.

    , @Incitatus

    “Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?”
     
    Shirer: ‘Rise and Fall of the Third Reich’ p.532;
    Evans: ‘The Third Reich at War’ p.11;
    Wittman & Kinney: ‘The Devil’s Diary’ p.246.

    The quote is from 21 Aug 1939.

    Say hello to Joe for me. No need to ask how Magda and the kids are doing.
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  213. @alexander
    Perhaps you, Sam and Incitatus should all spend the twenty minutes to view David Sheen's testimony before the Russell tribunal in 2014, it does a much better job in pulling back the curtain on these"supremacist" tendencies which have been bubbling up in Israel for quite some time.

    The link is posted on You tube . Its "David Sheen- Russell Tribunal -2014"


    It's very easy to access.

    It is shocking in its forthrightness, and even more shocking in its recounting of how the "Children of the Holocaust" are beginning to behave.

    Not a pretty picture.

    I may get round to it but I don’t need it to convince me that there are a lot of nasty savages in Israel. I will take some convincing though that government policy is anywhere near that of the Nazis or could become so (accepting that nothing is impossible…). As I hsve said there is far more free speech and dissent in Israel, there is genuine liberalism and they are a small country which can’t afford to outrage all other countries.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I hope to God you are right , Wizard.

    But it does not look good, at the moment.

    It looks bad.

    , @Art
    I will take some convincing though that government policy is anywhere near that of the Nazis or could become so

    Israel is a country with 200 hidden nukes and a leader that promises NO peace.

    What part of the big picture do you not get - what is not to fear?

    How dangerous do you want it?

    What will it take for you to acknowledge the real potential danger?

    p.s. Add to that the actual Jewish coercion of the Western states and what is the potential for a WWII type conflagration?
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  214. @SolontoCroesus
    Can you authenticate that statement by the chancellor of the Third Reich, upon which you so heavily rely?

    According to Josef Goebbels' diary, Hitler was not in Berlin on Aug 22