The Unz Review: An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 BlogviewPhilip Giraldi Archive
The Missing 28 Pages
America's "allies" pursue their own agendas
🔊 Listen RSS
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used once per hour.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

The redacted 28 pages describing the Saudi Arabian role in 9/11 have become somewhat of a political football. At this point, I suspect the Obama Administration is doing a damage assessment on them to determine whether they will in any way hurt Democratic electoral prospects in November. As the missing pages will likely lead to increased speculation about a major cover-up carried out by the George W. Bush Administration, Obama’s political advisers would likely be inclined to convince him to release the document if he is at all hesitating.

If the pages are released there will significant foreign policy fallout. There have already been demands that the Saudi government be considered fair game for remedial lawsuits in U.S. courts by filed by families of victims of 9/11. There is currently a bill in Congress specifically authorizing such action. Riyadh has already responded to it by threatening massive retaliation if official Washington does not take steps to prohibit such legal action, including the warning that it might consider selling off its $750 billion in American based assets, which might produce a surge in U.S. interest rates. Washington has up until now specifically protected Saudi Arabia in U.S. courts by having the State Department intercede and grant it sovereign immunity, a privilege not extended to the Palestinian Authority and to Iran, both of which have been hammered by adverse judgements in Manhattan courtrooms.

Given leaks from individuals who have either read the 28 pages or who have been informed of the contents it is pretty clear what will be revealed. The Saudi government, concerned lest al-Qaeda begin directing its activity against the Kingdom and Royal Family, was engaged in a program of bribing the group and even covertly supporting it as long as it carried out its actions somewhere else. This meant in practice that the Saudis were paying a modern equivalent of Danegeld to Osama bin Laden and not asking too many questions. In addition to the secret payments from the government, the 9/11 Commission also determined that a number of Islamic charities funded by individual Saudis as well as some prominent members of the Royal Family were also subsidizing al-Qaeda. In some cases, that the ostensibly charitable giving was clearly intended to aid extremist Sunni groups like al-Qaeda should have been clear to the donors, though such a link is necessarily difficult to demonstrate.

Some of the money that wound up in the hands of the 9/11 terrorists, 15 out of 19 of whom were Saudis, came through what is referred to as cut-out channels from the Saudi Embassy in Washington, where Prince Bandar bin Khalid al-Faisal was Ambassador. Nearly $130,000 appear to have wound up in the hands of two of the hijackers Nawaq al-Hazmi and Khalid al-Midhar, sums originating from the Embassy in Washington and the Saudi Consulate General in Los Angeles. Much of the money came from the personal bank account of Bandar’s wife Princess Haifa bint Faisal and also through the Embassy’s religious affairs office. Princess Haifa’s contributions were directed through a cut-out associate in California and wound up in the possession of Osama al- Bayoumi, a suspected Saudi intelligence operative, who in turn supported the hijackers. Princess Haifa’s checks were made out in small amounts of $3,500 per month.

After 9/11 occurred Prince Bandar was one of the first visitors to the Bush White House. The Justice Department immediately halted any investigation into the Saudi activity while the Administration took steps to fly official Saudis and members of the bin Laden family out of the country. A recent New York Post article identifies by name a number of FBI special agents who were astonished when they were told to stop looking at the Saudis as they were convinced that major leads in the investigation led directly to the Saudi Embassy. According to the agents and other sources, the White House effectively blocked inquiry into any possible Saudi role in 9/11.

Those who have read the 28 pages seem to agree that the top levels of the Saudi government, which means the King and Crown Prince and their cabinet, were uninvolved in the money transfers, but that does not preclude Saudi intelligence service and lower level bureaucratic involvement as part of an ongoing clandestine relationship with al-Qaeda. But even so, given the possible blowback, it should be considered probable that there was no intention on the part of Saudi officials to support an active terrorist plot unfolding in the United States. And the end recipients of other funding that wound up in the hands of hijackers might have been unknown to the donors and unrelated to any direct support of al-Qaeda, meaning that the 28 pages are likely little more than a series of allegations. Princess Haifa’s payments that could have supported two terrorists might, for example, have been conceived by her as being purely charitable, as some Saudi sources have suggested, and not part of some nefarious scheme.

And, of course, the big question is motive. That Saudi Arabia might be bribing a home grown terrorist group to leave it alone is perhaps not surprising, but if they were supporting that group knowing that it was planning a major terrorist attack in the United States that would be something quite different. Lacking Saudi government internal documents, I would imagine the 28 pages will be unable to determine whether or not that was the case and one might well assume that it would have been insanity for the Saudis to support such an initiative.

Another revelation from the discussion of the 28 pages, which reportedly constituted the entire “foreign involvement” section of the 592 page 9/11 Committee report, was that there was indeed no investigation of anyone but the Saudis. I have long argued that there were other plausible players in the drama, to include the Israelis, who were running a massive spying ring in the United States directed against Arabs and some of whom were seen celebrating as the twin towers went down. And there were also the Pakistanis, who appear to have facilitated the travel of several of the hijackers.

The five “dancing Israeli” celebrants, who turned out to be employees of an Israeli-owned moving company in New Jersey, were arrested after 9/11 and held in Brooklyn, initially on charges relating to visa fraud. FBI interrogators questioned them for more than two months. Several were held in solitary confinement so they could not communicate with each other and two of them were given repeated polygraph exams, which they failed when claiming that they were nothing more than students working summer jobs. The two men that the FBI focused on most intensively were believed to be Mossad staff officers and the other three were volunteers helping with surveillance. After 71 days, the Bush White House intervened, ordering the Israelis to be released and deported. They later complained about their treatment and sued the United States government.

There have also been unsubstantiated allegations that Pakistan might have helped fund or even carry out 9/11, but a stronger case can be made regarding the hijackers being known to the Pakistani Intelligence Service (ISI). Several of the alleged perpetrators of 9/11 spent considerable time in Pakistan prior to the attack and it is unlikely that ISI would have missed their presence or the opportunity to recruit them as sources.

It should surprise no one that the Saudis, Israelis and Pakistanis should all be pursuing their own agendas without regard for the interests of the United States and no one should get too exercised about it. One only has to look at contemporary Syria to realize that no one is playing straight there for all the talk of there being a “coalition” against ISIS. But one nevertheless has to ask why the White House did not demand a thorough investigation of possible foreign involvement after 9/11 and why only the 28 pages on the Saudis appeared in the final report. What if the Saudis were funding al-Qaeda or if the Israelis suspected something was about to happen, even if neither knew the details of an impending terrorist attack in the U.S.? What if the Bush Administration subsequently covered up those unpleasant revelations for various reasons? There should certainly be a reckoning, even now, and some people formerly in the government might well be good candidates for trial and imprisonment relating to their actions at that time. The American public is paying the bills and bearing the burdens of our fractured foreign and national security policies so it deserves a level of honesty from its government. As 9/11 has only served as a prelude to much worse slaughter and dislocation all around the world, much of it excused over what occurred on September 11th, 2001, it is past time for the people to learn what really happened on that day.

 
Hide 220 CommentsLeave a Comment
220 Comments to "The Missing 28 Pages"
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
    []
  1. MEexpert says:

    For a foreign affairs wonk like Philip Giraldi the mistake is astonishing. The ambassador at the time was none other than Bandar bin Sultan not Bandar bin Khalid. Furthermore, Mr. Giraldi seems to be trying to exonerate the Saudi government from any blame for 9/11.

    Also, what about the 30 Israelis that were detained and later released. Carl Cameron of the Fox news reported on this incidence on Brit Hume broadcast. The report was later withdrawn and disappeared from the Fox News website and the internet.

    Personally, I think the whole thing was masterminded by the Israelis.

    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @Monty Ahwazi
  2. Pepe ‘le Pew’ Escobar reckons the threat to prosecute saudis for 9/11 is a US tactic to force the Kingdom to pull out of the Doha deal that would have pushed prices back up, favouring Russia. The Saudis countered by threatening to dump hundreds of billions of T bonds..

  3. Oh goodie. A 9/11 thread. I can hardly wait.

  4. tris says:

    Saudi is just a smoke-screen for the real perps. Saudi do not have the capability to pull off such a huge event. Its obvious who has. They used Saudi as cover, working through their US institutions and personnel. If the Saudi’s were to be exposed, and turn around and finger the real perps, we will hear that Saudi are being anti-semitic again.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @stickman
  5. Kiza says:

    What happened on that day was a conspiracy. If it was a conspiracy, then anyone can have own theory and the government’s one is the least likely to be true. My theory is that 911 was a co-production between US citizens, Israelis and Saudis. The US individuals involved would have been the usual dual citizens, the Israelis involved would have been Mossad for the sake of getting the US to serve their interests better and the Saudis for religious/ideological reasons.

    The only amazing thing is how much fluff the MSM produce to obfuscate the simplest method of deduction – cui bono. Who benefited from 911 is the one who did it! We need no report to tell us this.

    • Replies: @stickman
  6. Rehmat says:

    It’s interesting to note that while the US lawmakers and courts have came to the conclusion that Iranian assets frozen in US banks should be used to pay for the so-called “expulsion” of Jews from Arab countries (Iran is not an Arab nation), they don’t believe that Israel was created over expulsion of over 700,000 Native Muslims and Christian Palestinians in 1948-49.

    Last week, 83 bipartisan Senators of 100-members US Senate, sent a letter to Barack Obama to sign a new US-Israel annual military aid package worth $4 to 4.5 billion up from the current $3.1 billion, immediately to help the Zionist entity defend its right to exist. The letter was authored by Senators Lindsey Graham, John McCain, Chris Coons and Richard Blumenthal. GOP presidential candidate Ted Cruz was among the signatories. For some reasons, Bernie Sanders did not sign the letter.

    During the same period of time, Senators Chris Murphy, Rand Paul and Richard Blumenthal have introduced a bipartisan bill that will put new conditions on the sale of military hardware to Saudi ‘royals’. The bill doesn’t call for a ban on military exchange with Riyadh. However, it does demand that US president must verify that US-made military equipment wouldn’t be used against civilians…..

    The September 11, 2001 terrorist attack in United States have been blamed on many countries, such as, Afghanistan, Iraq, Pakistan, and Iran by American lawmakers and country’s pro-Israel, anti-Muslim media in the past. Lately, Saudi ‘royals’ have been added to the list.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/04/26/83-us-senators-against-military-sale-to-saudi-arabia/

  7. Rurik says: • Website

    the 9/11 Commission also determined

    Mr. Giraldi, how can you even mention the Commission with a straight face?

    as if it had any more validity than the Warren Commission

    Israel and the neocons did 911 and you’d have to be a human ostrich not to know that by now. (which, I suspect you do)

    here’s a running link to 911

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/category/911#axzz46w01YC1m

    here’s one on the “Saudis did 9-11” silliness

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/debunksaudis.php#axzz46w4VXpuc

    the real question vis-a-vis all this talk of these ’28 pages’ is what manner of treachery are they up to now?

    ‘they hate us for our freedoms’, Saddam, 911 and WMDs!’, Osama and his 19 henchmen! Kuwaiti incubators! The Gulf of Tonkin!

    everything they say is a lie, and people still act like they have any credibility

    • Replies: @stickman
  8. A couple more relevant points:

    Members of the Bush team publicly supported the need for a “Pearl Harbor” event to unleash American military power to subdue the Middle East.

    The Saudi Ambassador was known as “Bandar Bush” because he was so close to the Bush family.

    Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the alleged 9-11 mastermind, at least that’s what we are told.
    The 9-11 Commission complained that they were never allowed to interview him. He remains at Gitmo without trial or media access for over a decade now.

    Several FBI agents publicly complained that FBI Headquarters refused to allow them to pursue investigations of Arabs oddly attending flight schools.

    And from my blog:

    March 2002 – Former CIA agent is CIA watchdog

    The US Congress has been dragging its feet about conducting hearings into the CIA’s failure to detect anything about the 9-11 attacks. Nothing much is expected since the House Intelligence Committee Chairman is a former CIA agent. Peter Goss grew up in Connecticut, graduated from Yale, served as an Intelligence officer in the US Army, and then became a Central Intelligence Agency Clandestine Services Officer. Ten years later, he retired early due to “illness” and moved to Florida to accept an appointment to fill a vacant spot as a county commissioner. No one has ever explained why the Democratic Governor of Florida at the time, Bob Graham, would appoint an “ill” Republican with no local government experience from Connecticut to a position in South Florida.

    Goss somehow accumulated a lot of money to run for Congress in South Florida, and then became chairman of the committee which oversees CIA activities. I’d think the other 434 members of the House would feel uncomfortable with this arrangement, but they may have no say. His counterpart in the US Senate is Bob Graham, the man who gave the sickly Goss his Florida appointment, and later became a Senator and is now chairman of the Senate Intelligence Committee. According to Carl Hulse of the New York Times (2-17-02 article), Goss and Graham were together on the morning of 9-11 meeting with the chief of the Pakistani intelligence service, whom they had met while traveling together to the region a few weeks earlier.

    Apr 16, 2016 – The Newest 9-11 Truther

    Since the 9-11 attacks, anyone who questions the official government story is ridiculed and called a “truther” by our CIA-Corporate controlled media. If you read details, you find the official story has many improbable and even impossible events. The official 9-11 Commission was appointed by President Bush and included only long-time loyal government officials. Nevertheless, even they complained that evidence was withheld. They were not even allowed to interview the supposed mastermind of the operation who is detained without trial or media access at Gitmo.

    Even parts of the final 9-11 Commission Report remain classified. That massive report skips many key areas. For example, there is no mention of the collapse of the third tower, the 47-story 7-WTC, located a football field away from the twin towers. It was not hit by an aircraft yet collapsed after it was evacuated, but no decent explanation was ever produced.
    Donald Trump said he doubts the 9-11 story, and now former CIA agent and former Republican Senator Bob Graham is a crazy truther. In a recent “60 Minutes” interview, he said:

    “I think it is implausible to believe that 19 people, most of whom didn’t speak English, most of whom had never been in the United States before, many of whom didn’t have a high school education– could’ve carried out such a complicated task without some support from within the United States.”

    Note Bob Graham was “detained” by the FBI last year for questioning.

    http://www.tampabay.com/news/perspective/why-did-the-fbi-detain-bob-graham/2240486

    It seems that Mr. Graham is getting old and troubled about the cover-up. If Obama doesn’t release the 28 pages, Mr. Graham might, unless he has “an accident” before that.

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @Anonymous
  9. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The members of the 9-11 commission themselves stated that they were shortchanged and prevented from doing a complete job hence it’s surprising that it even produced these 28 pages. It’s pretty clear that group of hijackers were scouted out, recruited and trained by a network with greater capabilities than some charismatic leader living in the mountains of Afghanistan. Of course any foreign government would be fearful of any ‘blowback’ from being exposed as having been involved in something like this unless they’d been assured beforehand by those in the US government that they would be shielded from such exposure. The US government, or a faction within it, needed a Reichstag fire event in order to embark upon it’s course of major war, Homeland Security and using the US treasury as their own private piggy bank. In my opinion that faction within the US government contracted with SA to provide a terrorist event on our territory using foreign stooges who would also conveniently die. Two days after 9-11 Bandar and Bush were hanging out together, laughing and smoking cigars and, as mentioned, Saudi nationals were allowed to exit the country quickly. The whole thing smells of collusion between the US and the other players. The Americans killed on 9-11 were pawns in the game just as the Gulf of Tonkin fakery led to the death of millions of people.

    • Replies: @bluedog
  10. Tom Welsh says:

    “Washington has up until now specifically protected Saudi Arabia in U.S. courts by having the State Department intercede and grant it sovereign immunity, a privilege not extended to the Palestinian Authority and to Iran…”

    Although I am not a lawyer, this seems a curious way of putting it. My understanding is that the USA’s Foreign Sovereign Immunities Act (FSIA) automatically renders all foreign governments immune to lawsuit in US courts, except in certain commercial disputes. Since when have laws passed by Congress been subject to the grace and favour of the State Department to become operative? And why does an American judge believe that the FSIA does not apply to the government of Iran?

  11. As 9/11 has only served as a prelude to much worse slaughter and dislocation all around the world, much of it excused over what occurred on September 11th, 2001, it is past time for the people to learn what really happened on that day.

    Amen to that.

  12. annamaria says:
    @tris

    “It should surprise no one that the Saudis, Israelis and Pakistanis should all be pursuing their own agendas without regard for the interests of the United States and no one should get too exercised about it. One only has to look at contemporary Syria to realize that no one is playing straight there for all the talk of there being a “coalition” against ISIS.”

    The weakening of ISIS by the joined Russian/Syrian forces had alarmed the Lobby to such a degree that the Israel-firsters have been applying a massive pressure on the US government to send American troops to stop the Syria’s progress toward restoration of Syrian sovereignty. Add to that the Israelis’ cordial oil-trading with ISIS (damaged by Russians’ revelations) and Israelis providing medical care for ISIS’ “freedom fighters.” The situation in Syria has made bare the perfidious use of the US resources by Israel for Israel’ goals of establishing the mythological Greater Israel, humanity be damned. The tragedies of Iraq, Libya, and Syria are directly related to the Lobby’ vicious, supremacist plans of subjugating the US to the interests of Israel.
    Lunatics.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-usa-syria-idUSKCN0XL0ZE
    chronic violation of Syrian space by Israel: http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-1.713873

    • Agree: Rurik
    • Replies: @stickman
  13. stickman says:
    @Kiza

    On track. Indeed it had to be a three-way freeway. Bear in mind that Cheney and Rumsfeld, though technically white guys, were big in with the neo-trotskyist neocon agents of the Rothschild crime family.

  14. stickman says:
    @Rurik

    Giraldi appears to be yet another of those presstitutes who dissemble and obfuscate in order to maintain “professional” respectability and status. As a recovering journalist, i can safely aver that there is no integrity and a whole lot of raw umber noses in the “profession” of professing what propounds to be truth as to the reality of events.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Jacques Sheete
  15. stickman says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    The truth will out. Thanks for adding to the body of truths and insights. Yes, Graham appears to be getting a bit vulnerable.

  16. stickman says:
    @Tom Welsh

    Anybody care to guess whether that “American” judge happens to be a committed Zionist OR is one of the many U$ puppet regime officials who are caught up in nets of bribery and/or blackmail, most particularly “under age” honeypots.

  17. stickman says:
    @annamaria

    Israel just happens to be the private project, lovechild, of the Rothschild crime family. It is the site of their desired NWO capitol, Jerusalem.

    As the Rothschilds and their unindicted co-conspirator fellow bankster families such as the Rockefellers, Schiffs, Lazards, Warburgs and a handful of others work their financial control networks over governments, media, institutions of “higher” learning, corporations and other totally corrupted institutions; it becomes more and more obvious that the Zionist state is the #1 protected entity in world affairs.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  18. Art says:

    Much of the money came from the personal bank account of Bandar’s wife Princess Haifa bint Faisal and also through the Embassy’s religious affairs office. Princess Haifa’s contributions were directed through a cut-out associate in California and wound up in the possession of Osama al- Bayoumi, a suspected Saudi intelligence operative, who in turn supported the hijackers. Princess Haifa’s checks were made out in small amounts of $3,500 per month.

    Covering this up is treason.

    Covering this up then starting a war is beyond treason.

    The Bush name will always be dirt!

  19. mtn cur says:

    All governments who prove capable of anything should not be surprised when they are blamed for everything whether they happen to be the real culprits or not. Indeed, I suspect most high level power junkies enjoy the “shock and awe” of have no limits to doing evil with impunity. Shades of the ape thrashing the bones with a femur to the dulcet tones of “Also Sprach Zarathustra.”

  20. woodNfish says:

    There should certainly be a reckoning, even now, and some people formerly in the government might well be good candidates for trial and imprisonment execution relating to their actions at that time.

    Fixed!

  21. Those of us with a few miles under out belts can remember Mexico playing the same game. They were fine with all manner of Marxist revolutionary skullduggery in the Americas, just so long as it wasn’t directed at Mexico itself. When Mexican students revolted, out came the carbines.

  22. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    Was 9/11 preventable?

    Answer:Yes, with 100 percent certainty!!!!!!!!!!!!

    How?

    Answer:no passage of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act….2)A National Origins Immigration Policy that completely excluded all Muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!…9/11=0 probability of ever occurring.

    Question:Why are Muslims being imported into the US legally?

    Answer:So they can vote whitey into a violently persecuted racial minority on Nov 8 2016….And this is far worse-by many orders of magnitude than what happened on 9/11….

    The 9/11 Truther Movement is a Treasonous Cabal….Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth founder Richard Gage is a well known enthusiast for importing legal immigrant Muslims…as is Paul Craig Roberts.

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @dahoit
  23. Biff says:

    Two planes brought down three towers.
    It all makes perfect sense.

  24. We’ll get the real story about 9/11 somewhere around 80 to 100 years after we get the real story about Pearl Harbor.

    • Replies: @Noizpots
    , @Carroll Price
  25. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:
    @Biff

    Biff Tard

    9/11 Truthers such as you run the spectrum from psychotic delusionals who droll on themselves in public parks to creatures with a very nasty political agenda.

    It is going on 15 years since 9/11. I have followed the debate with the 9/11 Truthers for this long. There have been point-by-point-pain staking detailed refutations of 9/11 Truther “Science” for nearly 15 years-by people who actually have advanced engineering and physics degrees. Any one with access to the internet can google these very detailed refutations of the 9/11 Truthers.

    The 9/11 Truthers couldn’t even get it right on the engineering and physics of collapse of the Twin Towers..therefore everything else the Truthers jibber jabber about gets dismissed as more Truther sewage. And much of what 9/11 Truthers have said post-9/11 is vicious slander of the Family Members of people who died on 9/11…real sickos.

    I just found out recently that 9/11 Truthers like to call up Structural Engineering Firms in NYC to challenge working-highly experienced structural engineers to debates about the collapse of the TT and Building 7. The Structural Engineer who gets the phone call from the 9/11 Truther immediately switches on the intercom so all the other engineers at the company can hear the exchange with the 9/11 Truther. Its weekly comedy hour at the Structural Engineering Firm.

    The Structural Engineer who gets the phone call does a detailed point-by-point refutation of Truther “Science” and “Facts” with the 9/11 Truther on the phone-line. The 9/11 Truther hangs up in frustration, and everyone at the Structural Engineering Firm has a belly-laugh.

    Richard Gage-founder of Architects and Engineers for Truth-should contact the top 10 Engineering departments in the US and offer to make a scientific presentation of 9/11 Truther “Science” to these top 10 Engineering departments for peer review in seminars.

    I personally despise 9/11 Truthers. They are a TREASONOUS CABAL of DUNCES that wants to flood the US with legal immigrant Muslims….Michigan can’t become Muslim Majority fast enough for them.

    9/11 Truther “Science” is “Scientific” Sewage

    9/11 is a massive indictment of the passage of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act..post-1965 Immigration Policy….and the stupidity of the US White Male Population that was much more interested in Fantasy “What a Stud Football” Football than to the growing menace-miasma of evil of a rapidly growing Muslim population in the US-post-passage of the 1965 Immigration Reform Act.

    9/11 was completely avoidable.

  26. Biff says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Well that was a good laugh. Keep it coming…

  27. stickman says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Yer gonna hafta back up those accusations vs Gage and Roberts with something more than simple sayso.

  28. stickman says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    So does “Groovy” believe in the official government conspiracy theory of 19 Arabs with boxcutters shutting down U$ air defenses for upwards of two HOURS? Perhaps he also believes that an airliner magically penetrated through four rings of the Pentagram comprised of steel reinforced concrete and separated by open space. I wonder what HIS structural engineers think of that one. Is this guy a paid disinformation agent or simply some out to lunch babbler?

  29. annamaria says:
    @stickman

    “Israel just happens to be the private project, lovechild, of the Rothschild crime family. It is the site of their desired NWO capitol, Jerusalem.”

    This private project could well end up with a nuclear Armageddon.
    They do not teach nuclear physics to banksters and silver-spooners. Moreover, the spoiled brats are accustomed to have their mess cleaned up on demand at once; they are not able to figure out a crisis that would go beyond anybody’ control and a nuclear conflict would be exactly that kind of disaster. The unnatural selection of weeding out the brightest and honest and independent-minded in the government by using money and power (hence the US oligarchy) could result in the most stupid decisions prompted by the war profiteers (MIC) and religion-poisoned lunatics and tribalists (AIPAC) in high places.

  30. @MEexpert

    I agree with you! It is impossible for the Israelis to talk about 9/11 politically. They have made a deal with the Saudi to train their military personnel and in return the Saudis to heavily campaign against the release of the 28 pages! I believe the stink sh#t is bigger than what Phil is stating!

  31. Any government that claims a right to secrecy over its affairs is going to use lying as a policy. After that, the number of liars will continually grow.

    Hopefully now there are enough pathological liars who have the goods on each other for government to fail.

    • Replies: @stickman
  32. Agent76 says:

    (Jan.1998) US history – “How Jimmy Carter I Started the Mujahideen” – Zbigniew Brzezinski, National Security Advisor 1977-1981

    “Q: The former director of the CIA, Robert Gates, stated in his memoirs [“From the Shadows”], that American intelligence services began to aid the Mujahadeen in Afghanistan 6 months before the Soviet intervention. In this period you were the national security adviser to President Carter.

    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=a13_1240427874

    Zbigniew Brzezinski Taliban Pakistan Afghanistan pep talk 1979

    In 1979 Carters National Security Advisor, Zbigniew Brzezinski went into Pakistans border regions with Afghanistan to give a little pep talk to some prospective majehadeen (Holy Warriors).

  33. Agent76 says:

    Sep 11, 2013 9/11 In A Nutshell as James Corbett presents this 5 minute parody of the official conspiracy theory of 9/11

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @Max Payne
  34. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountian"] says:
    @stickman

    If you don’t agree with the nutty 9/11 Truthers…you are part of the VAST Bush Family CONSPIRACY…Orchestrated by the ghost of Prescott Bush from his THRONE in the dark and dank basement of the Yale Skull and Bones Club.

    And all the fine engineering details of Prescott Bush’s knocking down of the TT and Building 7 can be found in the Bush Family’s favorite book…according to the late Alex Cockburn…”250 Fart Jokes” which the Ghost of Prescott Bush and his Engineering Team used as their 9/11 technical manual. If only the MIT Engineering Department could get their hands and such advanced engineering technology!!!!

    • Replies: @stickman
  35. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Mountain"] says:

    JFK

    1)Agitated for the demographic annihilation of The Historic Native Born White American Majority in a book he wrote when he as a US Congressman.

    2)Ignited the Cuban Missile Crisis when he ordered terrorists attacks on the Cuban Civilian population

    3)The Cuban Missile Crisis which was ignited by JFK brought the US and Russian to within seconds of permanent thermonuclear extinction. We were all saved by a Commie Russian Naval Commander named Vitali Ahkipov

    4)The 1965 Immigration Reform Act was reprobate Teddy’s permanent monument of demographic extermination to his brother JFK….

    5)Don’t forget JFK and school busing=Irish Catholic Teenage Girls raped in Black Urban Boston High Schools.

  36. War for Blair Mountain [AKA "Groovy Battle for Blair Moutain"] says:
    @stickman

    stickman

    Gage spoke at a Nation of Islam Conference. Paul Craig Roberts has been nothing but a stream of:”those poor innocent Muslim “Americans”” in his psychotic commentary.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    , @L.K
    , @bunga
  37. bluedog says:
    @anonymous

    I think that faction is referred to as the ‘deep state”[email protected]@@

  38. stickman says:

    On a personal basis i have read most of Roberts’ essays over the past few years and have yet to encounter “those poor innocent Muslim ‘Americans’”.

  39. stickman says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Disinformational nonsense. Also Alex Cockburn was a 911 Denialist. It was my major gripe with Counterpunch whilst he was still vertical. Been a bit leery of that website ever since. Many of that bunch are unreconstructed Marxoids and some are (gasp) liberals.

  40. stickman says:
    @Drapetomaniac

    Your opening statement makes for an excellent axiom.

    • Agree: Carroll Price
  41. stickman says:
    @Agent76

    Corbett presents a tour de force. Best precis ever. Everybody viewing this should share with every e.m. address they possess.
    Thanks for sharing.

  42. hbm says:

    I’m with Phil in that I’m reluctant to go full “nanothermite and Israelis Building 7” on 9/11, but I wouldn’t rule out Israelis playing a role it (even substantially more of one than just surveilling the hijackers and not saying anything), and wouldn’t be surprised at any revelations of Bush Gang involvement.

    But surely multiple nominally American Jews in Congress (and probably Neocon shabbos goyim, too) have read the pages and reported to Tel Aviv (and Riyadh) about their contents. Realizing this, I find it hard to believe that the folks in charge of what was once our country and media would have allowed the movement to declassify them gain this much momentum and get so far. Bob Graham has always hinted that other nations besides Saudi Arabia were in them. The Truthers of course know with certainty that this means Israel. I’ve always assumed Bob Graham was telling the truth.

    For what it’s worth, Sibel Edmonds (whom I once dismissed as at least half a charlatan but she immediately afterwards ended up being dead right about Dennis Hastert), has suggested that Turkey is actually the other country in question, and the ATC– the American Turkish Council– which she describes as basically an Israeli lobbying outfit in disguise and stuffed with the same bunch of lovable Jewish Neocons, played a major role in 9/11 and is one of if not the “other nation” mentioned in the pages.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  43. Svigor says:

    Saudi is just a smoke-screen for the real perps. Saudi do not have the capability to pull off such a huge event. Its obvious who has. They used Saudi as cover, working through their US institutions and personnel. If the Saudi’s were to be exposed, and turn around and finger the real perps, we will hear that Saudi are being anti-semitic again.

    I pull my punches against Israel for nobody, but this seems far-fetched to me. Arguments like “Saudis don’t have the capability” (BS, it was a pretty low-tech attack) and “obviously Israel does” (implying that they’re among the few who do, more BS) are particularly stupid, but par for the troofer course.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  44. Svigor says:

    Answer:So they can vote whitey into a violently persecuted racial minority on Nov 8 2016….And this is far worse-by many orders of magnitude than what happened on 9/11….

    The 9/11 Truther Movement is a Treasonous Cabal….Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth founder Richard Gage is a well known enthusiast for importing legal immigrant Muslims…as is Paul Craig Roberts.

    More like the regime refuses to stop importing Muslims because that would be the camel’s nose inside the tent. They don’t depend on Muslim votes, but they can’t go letting YT get the idea that he controls his own immigration policy the way Israeli Jews do, either.

    Plus the race-replacement project in Europe does depend on Muslims.

  45. Slowly and relentlessly, I garbage can one “expert” after another after they make dimwit statements like this as if they were fact.

    “Some of the money that wound up in the hands of the 9/11 terrorists, 15 out of 19 of whom were Saudis…”

    Evidence please! (N.B.:Your credibility is at stake.)

    Good grief…

    • Replies: @Art
  46. Svigor says:

    Criminal negligence, quite apart from any direct involvement, is what the US gov’t is guilty of. Any moron is smart enough to reinforce cockpit doors and put protocols in place to prevent hijackings and subsequent suicide attacks.

    But the US gov’t wasn’t.

  47. geokat62 says:
    @stickman

    Giraldi appears to be yet another of those presstitutes…

    Careful there, stickman. I’ve been following Giraldi for over two years now and I can assure you he’s the polar opposite of “those presstitutes.” Might I suggest you aim before you shoot, next time?

  48. @Svigor

    The controlled demolition of the THREE WTC buildings was anything but a low tech attack. In fact it was the most difficult series of demolitions ever undertaken and was effected meticulously within a very short space of time. Add to that that it was all done in secret in a high occupancy location under threat of exposure and you have to conclude that the Saudis lacked the know how and resources to do it. They rely on foreigners to do most complex undertakings done in SA itself.

  49. @War for Blair Mountain

    And your “logic” is? Since when was idiocy considered groovy?

  50. dcite says:
    @stickman

    Does not matter if Groovy believes. Thumping the MSM bible of government-approved-scripts for every game-changing event, is a dirty job and somebody has to do it, forever and ever and ever. Amen.

    • Replies: @stickman
  51. Art says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    Slowly and relentlessly, I garbage can one “expert” after another after they make dimwit statements like this as if they were fact.

    Say – why are these pages hidden, if there is zero truth to them?

    Why should we believe the Saudis – look at how they are fighting this disclosure – they sure act like this is true.

    p.s. Hmm — slowly and relentlessly you may find yourself all alone.

    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
  52. utu says:

    “look at how they are fighting this disclosure ” – They did not know what they were getting in to. They did not know that men they provided for the US-Israeli operation would be used as patsies. They found out it on 9/11 when it was too late.

    I always believed that Sen. Graham did not mean Saudis in his original statements.

  53. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Carlton Meyer

    Do you have the links to the 60 minutes by the way.?

  54. @War for Blair Mountain

    Who let you out of the youtube comments section?

  55. L.K says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    “Groovy Battle for Blair Moutain” = Garbage in, Garbage out.

    • Replies: @bunga
  56. Any course of action by the Saudis will have been taken at the direction or, at the very least, approval of the Israelis and their neo-con allies in the U.S.

  57. @geokat62

    He says he’s a “recovering journalist”. Don’t you suspect that he’s an unsuccessful and now unemployable wannabe journalist?

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @NoseytheDuke
  58. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    NO hijackers ever boarded planes on 911. For God’s sake let’s bring ourselves up to date with current knowledge. And to add: NO commercial planes ever flew into any buildings on 911.

    The Saudi story is a pure diversion from the actions of Israeli Mossad and the CIA.

  59. Thanks PG for a sober assessment of the probabilities. Not that it has given the maddies a moment’s pause.

  60. @War for Blair Mountain

    If anyone is drooling on themselves, it is you sunshine. Your little spiel just ran the gamut of garbage trollery and mish mash of dishonest propaganda tactics we have come to expect in those 15 years and absent any real answer to the facts gradually established and contextualised by 9/11 Truth orgs and individuals, despite the incredible level of misinformation and swamps of ignorance. Which has been the only response, from the outset. You are too late, the public long since passed the point of no return. The nonsense of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory and it’s inside job status has become part of common consciousness. Beyond your reach now, you became redundant, pointless, back by 2006-7 to be honest.

    What really has surprised me is how common the realisation of Israel’s primary involvement has grown at the same time.

  61. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    WTC7 “No plane” 9.8m/s/s freefall
    The B-Thing “ISRAELI Art project”
    GELITIN.net “ISRAELI Art students”
    The E-Team “planted the nanothermite”
    Donald “$2.3 Trillion” Rumsfeld
    Rabbi DOV “I took all the money” ZAKEIM
    Dick “The order stands” Cheney
    George “I saw the first plane on TV” Bush
    Larry “Pull it” SILVERSTEIN
    Bibi “9/11 good for Israel” Satanyahoo
    urban MOving SyStems incorpArateD

  62. @Art

    “p.s. Hmm — slowly and relentlessly you may find yourself all alone.”

    Gee, I guess that’ll teach me to question the accepted mythology.

    • Replies: @Art
  63. alexander says:

    Dear Phil,

    Looking back on all the countries we have “actually” destroyed or attacked, as payback for 9-11, perhaps we should consider what the 28 pages “should say”…Not what they do..

    Here’s a script:

    “On September 11, 2001 , The evil Iraqi people, along with the help of the evil Libyan people, the evil Syrian people, the evil Iranian people, the evil Palestinian people , the evil Lebanese people and the evil Russians all conspired together, hired some evil terrorists and hijacked and crashed those planes into the W.T.C. and the Pentagon.. so we would get really angry and bomb them all.”

    There, I feel better now…..Don’t you ?

  64. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    NO commercial planes ever flew into any buildings on 911.

    Every time the subject of 9-11 comes up there’s the appearance of all sorts of comments that are so out of left field that the effect is to muddy the water and cast a shadow over the entire field of 9-11 inquiry. This seems to be an intentional effort to discredit the subject. Then their counterparts come on and point to someone claiming that 9-11 was really one big hologram, or something else that’s outlandish, and say see, they’re just a bunch of nuts, forget about it. It’s like an act between two groups who seem as though they’re diametrically opposed but are really part of the same team. There must be some internet software alerting these people that 9-11 is being discussed somewhere and they dive right in. 9-11 is a subject that needs scrutiny and shouldn’t be derailed by those with dishonest motives.

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @alexander
  65. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    My central point remains. Giraldi qualifies as a liberal. That could mean he’s potentially a truth-telling radical whose testes have yet to descend. In case you haven’t noticed, Geocat, we are in a war. The war is for the minds of humanity ~ for clear and open consciousness. My feeling is that Giraldi is not opening up as much as he could. He is knowledgeable and not a bad communicator. But he does not seem to tie some important laces together. Again, my take is that he is concerned about maintaining “acceptable” professional status.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  66. stickman says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Blizzard of Ooze grasps at straws. I was fired from my last JOB as a journalist in May of 73. Immediately following that event i published my own monthly for 5.5 years. While most publications develop their revenue stream based on 90% advertising sales and 10% sale of product, mine was at the least a perfect reversal. It was a populist publication which drew sufficient popular support to support me and partly support an associate.

    In later years i published one more newspaper and a magazine. Reason why i call myself a “recovering journalist” is that nowadays the profession requires the color of nasal appendage which i do not possess. Matters have gotten immeasurably worse since 1973. “Presstitute” or “media whore” best describes virtually every corporate journalist who deals with hard news. We are not in Kansas anymore, Toto. An H.L. Mencken could not possibly find employment in ANY corporate organ today.

  67. stickman says:
    @anonymous

    Months ago Congre$$ approved funding for informational warfare to be committed by a congeries of Alphabet Agencies. Then you get the $ayanim and Ha$barfa working directly for Mo$$ad. There are plenty of paid agents, and even ideologically-committed volunteers out there whose assignments firstly include muddying the waters on 911.

    Those of us who are committed to truth and enlightenment have long come to a conscious realization that some bad actors, all ultimately minions for the ruling banksters, have long controlled the U$ puppet regime and that the gunsmoke from 911 still reeks in our nostrils and with the exception of the terminally deluded pop-kultch addicts and the self-inflicted cognitively dissonant ~ is now commonly realized by most conscious Americans.

  68. alexander says:
    @anonymous

    It is interesting how legitimate inquiry into 9-11 gets sabotaged by over-the-top, mysterious “faux” truthers in expressing unhinged and outlandish claims.

    if there is a deliberate purpose to it, it is to intermingle and smear “good thinking” with hair brain schemes ,and discredit ,by proxy, the whole bunch.

    It works.

    Like take #7, nearly anybody worth their salt can just watch the building go down and understand with crystal clarity, it collapses in a way so identical to a controlled demolition , that the chances are it was one.

    But once you conflate that “solid” argument with” faux holograms” and “image splicing” and all that ya da ya da,
    It serves to muddy the waters, and dilute the potency of a strong argument.

    It is a technique ,or tactic, I have seen (used in a different way),to discredit the good, by taking a stand against it , and supplanting the correct argument, with a bogus one, and then undermining the bogus one as though it were the good.

    Its clever.

  69. Moi says:

    Neither the Saudis nor OBL had the capability to carry out 9/11.

  70. geokat62 says:
    @stickman

    My central point remains. Giraldi qualifies as a libera.l

    I really don’t know much about PG’s politics… and I really don’t care. btw – are you suggesting that conservatives have a monopoly on truth-telling? What I do know is that PG is an American patriot – i.e., he puts the interests of America first. While the left and right may disagree on what policies are in America’s best interests, I have no issue standing by any American who puts his country’s interest first, regardless of where they happen to fall on the political spectrum. Rather than demonizing these American patriots, our efforts are better spent outing the real traitors – i.e., those who are prepared to sell their country for 50 pieces of silver, wouldn’t you agree?

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @stickman
  71. Saudis? Israelis? Turks? Pakistanis? I’m more interested in knowing exactly who the Americans are that authored and/or participated in the events of 9/11.

  72. @Moi

    Neither the Saudis nor OBL had the capability to carry out 9/11.

    just the money. KSA was the financier.
    Israel + CIA = planning.
    US military & other mid-level functionaries were likely the working stiffs, just doing their job, who acted as pieces of the mosaic to implement the plan.
    The 19 + OBL were the patsies + scapegoat.

    isn’t that self-evident?

    isn’t it time, and isn’t there a place, a database, a sticky website where such self-evident conclusions can be posted to form the foundational doctrine, so that 15 years-on American patriots don’t have to argue over the fundamentals?

    Isn’t it time we stopped eating our own and started confidently and critically advancing our own claims and arguments rather than spending our time and energy dodging bullshit?

    This is our country, dammit.

    • Replies: @Junior
  73. Art says:
    @Jacques Sheete

    Art: “p.s. Hmm — slowly and relentlessly you may find yourself all alone.”

    jacque: Gee, I guess that’ll teach me to question the accepted mythology.

    Sorry – I am confused – do you believe the government story on 9/11 or not?

  74. Max Payne says:
    @Agent76

    Ah the cave fortresses of Afghanistan. Brings back memories.

    “There isn’t just one of those, there are many of those”
    -Rumsfeld

    You’d have to be a special type of retard to have fallen for that one.

    As for 9/11 I don’t know enough to know who did what. I know Mohammedans are stupid as hell and the success of the operation against the worlds greatest empire (in known history) seems unlikely.

    BUT I also know how incompetent the US government and military is and it’s inability to achieve any objectives (or create an environment of security) in any adventure it pursues.

    It’s like the story of Dumb and Dumber.

  75. This whole 28 pages thing is a stupid sideshow. 911 was planned and carried out at least in part by officials of the US. This much is incontrovertible. It is so easy to say this is true because of one simple detail: the light poles.

    People in Arlington can tell you where the plane was on 911, since it was directly above their heads and close enough to make them cower in fear. They can tell you the path the plane took as it flew towards the Pentagon. They do this in “National Security Alert,” which is possibly the best doco on 911 for this one reason: the light poles.

    Witnesses on the ground can show you on a map where the plane flew that day. The light poles the “plane” knocked over are on the other side of town. Not only did the plane not knock them over, SOMEONE ELSE DID. Game over.

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Wizard of Oz
  76. bunga says:
    @L.K

    a lot of vomitus and detritus from the rectum draining down the plateau surrounded by mountains

  77. Oy vey, no way goy!!! Arabs planned this all alone with no help at all in a third world environment!

  78. bunga says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Hey Moron get something useful to talk .

    nation of Islam was born in America

  79. alexander says:
    @AnotherLover

    I think in many ways you are right about the irrelevance of the 28 pages, certainly at this late date when most of the damage has been done.

    Lets look at the facts:

    In 1999 we had a 5.7 trillion National debt and we were running a 200 billion surplus.

    Our GDP was nearly double our national debt…something like 9.5 trillion…

    We had a strong middle class, a good size elite, and a solid financial footing as a nation.

    More importantly, the constitution mattered, and the law mattered.

    We were a free society.

    We had no shortage of problems, mind you, but on the whole we were still the United States. Past presidents like Washington, or Jefferson would have recognized us.

    Fast forward to 2016 (today) and we find that we are all living in “Neocon America”. a psuedo- totalitarian police state, run by and for the oligarchs, and dedicated to perpetual” wars of aggression”

    They have created an obscene 19 trillion dollar national debt (over three times what it was fifteen years ago), and are running a deficit of 600 billion per year,( whittled down a bit (thanks Obama)from the trillions in overage during the Iraq war years.).

    Our National debt now “exceeds” our GDP by something like 600 billion,

    and our constitution is gone, eviscerated.

    So, too, is our middle class.

    More of our nations wealth has poured into the hands of the 1% than even during the age of the robber barons..
    .Every candidate running for office is a wholly owned subsidiary of the oligarchs in the back room, entrenching , right out of the gate, the perpetuation of the status quo.

    Privacy , like telling the truth, is a thing of the past.

    Our news programs and journals are fraudulent, and whenever those at the top commit horrendous crimes…the point to all is that they get away with it.

    The State apparatus, is no longer concerned with the betterment of society, or creating a vibrant, dynamic and free republic, its chief concern is constructing the narratives for creating, and sustaining ” perpetual war”, ( while banking the mega profits at the taxpayers expense.).

    Even Bernie Sanders is a “war machine” candidate.

    This seems like pretty much of a done deal, to me. The United States, as we knew it, has gone the way of …………..Palestine.

    Do the “28 pages” really matter at all, at this late date ?

    I doubt it.

    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @WorkingClass
  80. @alexander

    It’s too late for the Empire. It was long ago too late for the Republic. But it’s never too late for the truth. That why I’m a truther.

    • Replies: @alexander
  81. Junior [AKA "Jr."] says:

    Mr. Giraldi,

    I am EXTREMELY disappointed with this article. Everyone knows that Iraq did 9/11. Please stop with the revisionist history!

    – Jr. 😉

    • Replies: @Max Payne
  82. Junior [AKA "Jr."] says:
    @Tom Welsh

    And why does an American judge believe that the FSIA does not apply to the government of Iran?

    For the same bullshit reason that the FARA Act(Foreign Agent Registration Act) apparently doesn’t apply to the government of Israel.

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2009/05/the-azc-aipac-and-fara.html

  83. @geokat62

    He’s just put his foot in it further with his response to my comment on his “recovering journalist” self-description. I doubt that he knows any serious journalists, editors, producers etc. and, even more important, even if he tried he wouldn’t have access to those influential people that he fantasises about. He wouldn’t even have known that Richard Perle when sought for an interview by the BBC on the Iraq war at its outset demanded an outrageous fee just to illustrate the details that truther types don’t even know they’re ignorant of.

    • Replies: @stickman
  84. @AnotherLover

    Please explain this extraordinary picture you paint of the plane heading for the Pentagon knocking over light poles some miles away!! This is a leg pull presumably…

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  85. Junior [AKA "Jr."] says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Isn’t it time we stopped eating our own and started confidently and critically advancing our own claims and arguments rather than spending our time and energy dodging bullshit?

    This is our country, dammit.

    Right on, gramps! RIGHT! ON!

  86. Max Payne says:
    @Junior

    I am EXTREMELY disappointed with this article. Everyone knows that Putin did 9/11. Please stop with the revisionist history!

    I went ahead and fixed that for ya.

  87. stickman says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “serious journalists”? Oh please. I caught enough whiffs of that type around my first university’s daily ~ almost every one of them j-school types and even back in the 60’s they were nothing more than brown-nosing careerists, toeing the party line. Or do you want to try and convince me that today’s presstitutes are a cut above?

    Not one single major institution in this ruptured Republic is without layer upon layer of corruption ~ generally adherent to those conceiving themselves as being that Eye of Horus on the stinky backside of the $1 “Federal” Reserve note. Try and name me one institution which is not filled with careerists, climbers and clingers and i’ll shoot that argument down so fast your arguments will look like a whirlpool of whirligigs.

    As for Richard Perle, we are talking pure filth.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  88. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    By using the term “liberal” i am not falling into the false dichotomy of left/right. Though i may have overstated matters by limning Girardi into that worldview; i firmly believe that liberals as i understand the concept, are so economically lamed that they dare not open up fully and tell it all like they see it. “Minnesota nice”, i understand. It is a matter of conformity into the adjustment racket, which happens to be a shell game being run by the .0000001%.

    Harry Truman got to be an official 33rd Degree Mason by being “cooperative”, particularly in establishment of the N$A, the CIA and the Department of “Defense”. Capisce? Truman was also the SOB who enabled the establishment of the Zionist State on primarily stolen Palestinian Land. The U$ puppet regime “leaned” on essentially every little country in Central and South America as well as those European regimes which were being drawn into the Marshall Plan.

    Except for paleocons, the likes of Patrick Buchanan and Paul Craig Roberts; today’s self-styled “conservatives” are nothing more than corporate statists. Benito Mussolini had a favored name for that arrangement. He called it Fascism.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  89. geokat62 says:
    @stickman

    Though i may have overstated matters by limning Girardi into that worldview…

    No, you definitely overstated matters… that’s why I think you owe the man an apology. As I said before, I’ve read every single one of his articles that have been posted here at UR over the last two years and I, and I’m sure most others, will attest to the fact that PG pulls back no punches in his articles. That’s why he has such a loyal following, he’s earned it by speaking truth to power. As I said before, you attacked the wrong guy.

    • Agree: Talha, Sam Shama
    • Replies: @stickman
    , @Rurik
  90. @Wizard of Oz

    I understood stickman to mean that he could no longer stomach the compromises required to be a “successful” journalist. I didn’t infer from his post that he lacked the capabilities to be one, and anyway, his posts generally make good sense and make a worthwhile contribution here, unlike your own comments which seem mainly to serve your own pathetic and desperate need to appear wise and superior.

    I forget who it was who stated “It is no measure of success to be well adjusted in a profoundly sick society”, but the statement holds true now more than ever.

    I have previously referred to you as one of those HIQI types that Jonathan Revusky wrote about but you’ve now convinced me that I was being much too generous.

    • Replies: @stickman
  91. @Wizard of Oz

    I don’t know about light poles miles away but there is no question that whatever hit the Pentagon was not a plane. Pictures taken immediately following the strike reveal a hole much smaller than such a plane, also there were glass windowpanes intact where a plane would have struck and a complete absence of any wreckage from a crashed plane either within or adjacent to the building.

    No plane could have penetrated the buildings to the depth that whatever penetrated it did. Look at the pictures and ask yourself if you trust your own eyes. The area was promptly covered over by huge truckloads of sand and soil, is that not strange?

    It was almost certainly a missile rather than a plane that struck so why the deception by the government?

    By a strange coincidence the Pentagon strike conveniently destroyed vast amounts of records making impossible the uncovering of probable fraud and theft of billions of dollars of missing taxpayer money. Some people smell a rodent.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  92. bondo says:
    @bondo

    in addition to pics watch this re wtc7

    david hooper, “anatomy of a great deception”

  93. stickman says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Interestingly, congruently, i just finished reading Douglas Herman in his provocative blog, “Striking at the Roots”. He made the argument, with which i fully concur, that the lodestar of his blog, Henry David Thoreau, would in no wise be even considered for publication in today’s mainscream (my term) media.

    Thoreau, Emerson, Whitman. We had genuine heroes in the 19th Century. None of them would be acceptable in the contemporary world of fiction propounded to be revealed truth as exemplified by The NYT, the New Yorker, the WaPo and even Atlantic Monthly. Even the Nation would likely look askance at such uncredentialed autodidacts espousing points of view which are not sufficiently P.C.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  94. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    After reading more of Giraldi’s writings i will determine whether or not your boldfacing of the words “may have” was truly an occasion of overstatement on my part or on yours. Averring that he “pulls no punches” is a manifestly bold assertion, for which i will need more written evidence from Mr. Giraldi himself.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  95. geokat62 says:
    @stickman

    Averring that he “pulls no punches” is a manifestly bold assertion, for which i will need more written evidence from Mr. Giraldi himself.

    Fair enough. But there is no need to wait for future articles. Here’s a link to all 607 of his articles posted here at Unz going back to 2003.

    http://www.unz.com/author/philip-giraldi/

    Why don’t you sample a few and tell us if he is guilty of “pulling his punches.”

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @stickman
  96. @stickman

    That’s one of my concerns as well. I’ve learned to get real suspicious when most everyone is singing the same tune, the tune this time being the chorus of demonization of the Saudi elite, not that I’m wasting a lot of concern for them.

    Most of the comments over at another Unz article at, http://www.unz.com/pcockburn/saudi-arabia-may-be-in-for-a-nasty-shock/, are pretty good and many seem to be calling it for what it likely is. I.e., not only is blame is being deflected to the Saudi ruling elite out of proportion to its likely involvement, but it’s probably being set up to be run directly by the usual gangsters. For whatever reason, their usefulness as proxies appears to be nearing the end.

    Haven’t we seen similar scenarios repeated ad nauseum?

  97. @stickman

    Yes stickman, you have to wonder at the “thinking” behind such a puffed up fool who refers to “serious” journalists when there are constant revelations about how these same “serious news” providers covered up and buried so many truly serious stories including ones that might have exposed the truth about JFK, Tonkin Gulf, 9/11, anthrax, weapons of mass destruction, Syrian gas attacks to name just a small number.

    Equally, when people try to flaunt their vast “knowledge” about economics to convince people that national debt doesn’t matter. One wonders why such fools would even come to The Unz Review other than to cause mischief and to attempt to embellish their self image.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Wizard of Oz
  98. @geokat62

    Giraldi identified himself as a Conservative in this talk last year.

  99. L.K says:

    Former US marine Ken O’Keefe breaks down the 28 redacted pgs:
    Basically, what Ken says, and i fully agree, is that it is a diversion;
    It serves the purpose to divert attention from the real culprits: the Zionists and American traitors who carried out the 9-11 false flag attacks.

    • Replies: @schmenz
  100. Sam Shama says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Equally, when people try to flaunt their vast “knowledge”

    Or, indeed those so wrapped in self-righteous zeal, fail entirely to distinguish between evidence and articles of faith. Nobler a soul than your Grace, one labours to find.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  101. schmenz says:
    @L.K

    The sounds plausible to me as well, LK.

  102. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    the fact that PG pulls back no punches in his articles.

    Geo, give the guy a break. Of course PG pulls punches. He knows damn well that 911 was done by Mossad and the CIA and assorted scum in the US and British governments and media. We all know that, (at least I hope we all do ; )

    But for all of PG’s nuanced dancing on that razor’s edge of ‘respectability’ vs. hard truth, those of us that have been reading him for long enough to read between his lines, can see that his heart is certainly in the right place. But it took me a while to see that too.

    It’s a difficult thing to know where to come out with guns blazing when it comes to the truth, especially if you operate with a stain of ‘respectability’, and especially if your career depends on that ‘respectability’. There are very many of us who figure people like Ron Paul, Pat Buchannan and others are certainly aware that the 911 Commission is an insulting joke. Even guys like Hunter Thompson said professional journalists would never dare tell the truth. It’d be the end of them. So a certain leeway is expected I guess, and should be given. (but it took me a long while to figure that out, and I did my share of railing against so-called journalists who it seemed to me were spending more energy obfuscating the truth than speaking it.

    that’s my two cents

    BTW, I rather enjoy the meme that’s going around that the import of these ‘redacted pages’ means that the Saudi’s are about to be tossed under the bus. A more vile regime it’s hard to imagine. May they rot in hell.

    Cheers

    • Replies: @geokat62
  103. @Sam Shama

    People like Stickman and NoseytheDuke to name only a few of the truther types that swarm to UR seem to suffer severe problems with elementary logic inasmuch as they generalise and then can’t allow for the possibility of exceptions, or even the obvious fact of exceptions (assuming their rule) to anyone with open eyes. Presumably they are at least mental recluses, very isolated from reality. I am sure you knew, as I do, journalists, editors and producers who are financially independent enough to pursue their principled aims and dreams and who, just as a member of the Bar may proudly uphold the great traditions of ensuring representation even for the reviled, rejoice in the valiant-for-truth role of the investigative journalist. (And, frankly, some just like showing off; including the lazy fabulists like Jayson Blair).

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Sam Shama
    , @stickman
  104. @NoseytheDuke

    Who says “national debt doesn’t matter”? I haven’t noticed that on UR. Perhaps you could give some honest quotes to show that it isn’t something you have misunderstood or choose to misrepresent.

  105. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I am sure you knew, as I do, journalists, editors and producers who are financially independent enough to pursue their principled aims and dreams

    and who, just as a member of the Bar may proudly uphold the great traditions of ensuring representation even for the reviled,

    rejoice in the valiant-for-truth role of the investigative journalist

    lazy fabulists

    really?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  106. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    [journalists, editors and producers who are financially independent enough to pursue their principled aims and dreams and who, just as a member of the Bar may proudly uphold the great traditions of ensuring representation even for the reviled, rejoice in the valiant-for-truth role of the investigative journalist.]

    Quite so, and were our truthers to pause a moment and reflect on the bounty provided by the web, where “everything goes” is literally first principles, and on the basis of which they exercise their liberty to inflict instant judgement on all and sundry, they should find themselves happier souls, if only left undisturbed by inconvenient facts. It is a relatively simple matter for those prefer to keep a somewhat open mind, to realise that generalising without the burden of formal proof is facile, especially when it is done anonymously, yet an altogether different kettle of fish presenting it to the wider audience of a pedigreed, internationally respected platform, where the consequences of presenting half-baked items, and more to point if discovered to be so flawed, retribution will swiftly follow.

    All of which is not lionise all of the MSM, but rather a guarded endorsement of venues like the UR, where a diverse, well-informed readership keeps nonsense at bay.

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @Wizard of Oz
  107. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    Geo, give the guy a break.

    So, Rurik, this guy comes along and makes the following remark: “Giraldi appears to be yet another of those presstitutes,” and you think he deserves a break? I don’t think so.

    There are very many of us who figure people like Ron Paul, Pat Buchannan and others are certainly aware that the 911 Commission is an insulting joke.

    If you recall, your good buddy JR previously asserted the same thing about Ron Paul, to which Giraldi provided the following response:

    I would not want to speak for Dr. Paul, but my recollection is that he clearly believed that 9/11 was being exploited by the Bush Administration and its neocon managers to create a state of permanent war that would lead to the overthrow of every non-pliable Muslim regime in the Middle East. He saw the series of wars that resulted as completely contrived and not in America’s interest. Several of his books have made the point that the United States has provoked blowback overseas by its aggressive military presence in numerous countries and he, like many others, has noted that 9/11 was at least in part a response to that US presence. I think it is an accurate assessment to opine that 9/11 was in large part caused by US policies and actions. Against that, I am personally an agnostic on the truther narrative but I do find certain elements in it highly plausible. Even accepting that the US (and Israeli) role in 9/11 might have been, shall we say, proactive there still might have been other elements at play. The “innocent America attacked by Muslim radicals” narrative is a favorite of Republicans and many Democrats but it is the product of tunnel vision.

    As you well know, I happen to share the same views on this topic.

    A more vile regime it’s hard to imagine.

    I can easily imagine a regime that is more vile. I think you like to refer to it as the fiend.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  108. @Anonymous

    and no records of the four planes leaving the airports on Sept 11 2001 and forgotten–Boston Airport tower manager admitted he destroyed all the videos by dumping tearing them disposing them throughout airport’s garbage bins.
    Also reported the planes were asked to divert to hangers for repair.
    I suspect that the Passengers and crew were gassed to death and bodies sent to rendering plants.

  109. I read one comment which wrongly accused G.W. Bush-“Need A New Pearl Harbor Event”
    Not true—Bill Clinton’s Regime had a lot to do with the planned event >In 1999– term was introduced for the need and memo to Bill Clinton.
    I am very surprised that that UNZ would allow most comments connecting Israel and America in pulling off 9/11 caper.

  110. Due to its complexity and scope, 9/11 required massive levels of untraceable financial support. Most of which apparently came from Saudi Arabia. Including huge sums paid to Israel in exchange for providing technical assistance (producing fake passports for fake hi-jackers, acquisition and placement of thermite, wiring 3 building with demolition charges, programming flight controllers on 4 airliners etc), funds with which to pay 4.7 billion dollars to insurance companies for paying Larry Silverstein for the loss of his buildings without first conducting investigations into what was obviously an insurance/financial fraud of gigantic proportions – etc, etc, etc.

    • Replies: @stickman
  111. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    The 28 pages! The 28 pages! What about the effing 28 pages?

    There are so many questions about what the Americans themselves, and their closest pals, quite obviously knew about the incident before it happened. And, how about the other building which came down? It couldn’t all be because of the so-called terrorists.

    Does anybody think, “the 28 pages,” will mention anything about the complicity of Americans and their bosom buddies?

    All the pages will do is point to the Arabs, the easiest-to-accept fall guys for the west. Then everyone who has been waiting will line up to sue the “ragheads.”

  112. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    makes the following remark: “Giraldi appears to be yet another of those presstitutes,” and you think he deserves a break? I don’t think so.

    When I first read PG’s articles I too wondered if he was just another presstitute. Even in the article above he speaks of the 911 Commission as if it had a shred of credibility. Giraldi is (ex)-CIA, right? So how can he not know the Commission was a fraud? And then he talks of Osama as if he was the real Emanuel Goldstein boogey man he’s (laughably) been made out to be. It’s like you’re reading the NYT or something.

    So yea, I get why some people who’re uninitiated with PG could get the wrong idea.

    that 9/11 was at least in part a response to that US presence. I think it is an accurate assessment to opine that 9/11 was in large part caused by US policies and actions.

    he’s dissembling

    I am personally an agnostic on the truther narrative but I do find certain elements in it highly plausible.

    ahh, and the “truth” comes out!

    he knows the official narrative is a stinking pile of manure. But he has better sense than to say so. He wants to continue to be considered mainstream and get invited to fancy press dinners and such. I suppose I don’t blame him, because like I said, once you learn to read between his lines, then it becomes clear he’s trying to out the psychopaths who’ve taken over our government (and media). But first you have to get through the dissembling.

    As you well know, I happen to share the same views on this topic.

    which I don’t understand, because you’re posting here anonymously, and so you can’t be trying to preserve your name on some invitation list. We here posting with fake names can howl the truth with bullhorns!

    I can easily imagine a regime that is more vile. I think you like to refer to it as the fiend.

    Saudi Arabia qualifies. They’re satanic and their corruption is legendary. They just murdered a Shiite cleric because he was too honorable to exist for such a satanic regime. They are in bed with the Zionists who’ve been raining down horrors and humiliations upon the Arab and Muslim world for generations, and have been busy lately funding sub-human head slicers in Syria while bombing civilians in Yemen. They aligned with the regime of the Shah when *SAVAK was torturing everyone in sight and terrorizing the entire Iranian population for decades. There seems to be no depravity that these fiends won’t slink to.

    So yea, I have no problem considering the vile scum running Saudi Arabia as the worst kind of lowlife, POS you’ll find anywhere. (you wouldn’t catch me bowing to one of them, that’s for sure ; )

    .

    *The FAS list of SAVAK torture methods included “electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails.” [25]

    and that’s the stuff we know about

    • Replies: @geokat62
  113. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    When I first read PG’s articles I too wondered if he was just another presstitute.

    Wondering is ok, Rurik. But you didn’t come out and insult him with a disparaging remark, did you?

    … he knows the official narrative is a stinking pile of manure. But he has better sense than to say so. He wants to continue to be considered mainstream and get invited to fancy press dinners and such.

    Come on, Rurik. If Giraldi were so concerned about getting invited to black tie events, why would he be writing all these articles bashing the Lobby?

    … which I don’t understand, because you’re posting here anonymously, and so you can’t be trying to preserve your name on some invitation list.

    The great atheist philosopher Bertrand Russell was once asked what he would say if he found himself standing before God on the judgement day and God asked him, “Why didn’t you believe in Me?” Russell replied, “I would say, ‘Not enough evidence, God! Not enough evidence!’”

    And Russell elaborated on the risks associated with believing that something is true on the basis of insufficient evidence:

    What a man believes upon grossly insufficient evidence is an index into his desires — desires of which he himself is often unconscious. If a man is offered a fact which goes against his instincts, he will scrutinize it closely, and unless the evidence is overwhelming, he will refuse to believe it. If, on the other hand, he is offered something which affords a reason for acting in accordance to his instincts, he will accept it even on the slightest evidence. The origin of myths is explained in this way.

    *The FAS list of SAVAK torture methods included “electric shock, whipping, beating, inserting broken glass and pouring boiling water into the rectum, tying weights to the testicles, and the extraction of teeth and nails.” [25]

    and that’s the stuff we know about

    And we also know some other stuff about SAVAK:.

    Israel’s Mossad spy agency also assisted in training SAVAK agents in the arts of interrogation, surveillance and torture.

    http://www.ibtimes.com/irans-feared-savak-norman-schwarzkopfs-father-had-greater-impact-middle-east-affairs-976502

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @Rurik
  114. dahoit says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Sheesh.As if its the Muslims destroying our Constitution,nation and control our traitor pols.
    Zionism is our bane and enemy.

  115. stickman says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Shades of Petronius, the Arbiter of Morals and Keeper of the Faith for the much beloved Nero, Imperator Romanus.

    Exceptionalism is the name of the Domain is the claim of Blizzard of Ooze, when it comes to heart-based, yet intellectually espoused expositions of truth as one sees it, which is highly off-putting to the academicist mind. Possession of the magical “open sesame” to the realm of reality is yet another domain claim made by this poseur.

    Member of the Bar, eh? That would be Temple Bar, i presume ~ one of the multifarious tentacles of City of London ~ lair of the Beast.

  116. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    Perhaps Sam the Sham is not acquainted with the phenomena of love at first sight or the converse of instant detestation. These factors are a reality of the human condition. They are not readily provable by normative scientific methodologies such as quantification and repeatability under laboratory conditions.

    So it is with Sam’s “inconvenient facts”. Giraldi may well be on the side of the angels, but on reading the essay my first impression had very little to do with the entire corpus of his prior work; rather my judgement at the time was based on the impressionistic observation that he was hacking away at the branches rather than grubbing out the roots of our contemporary impositional reality of rule by the .0000001% and the putative identities of these entities.

    “Generalising (British spelling) without the burden of formal proof is facile” is a dead giveaway of an academicist approach. There is something morally repulsive about the evident intellectual hubris currently a la mode amongst academics and their ilk. When academic institutions are deeply corrupted entities, keenly influenced by the largesse of jocktivities supporting alumni and governmental and corporate grants; such institutions of “higher” learning no longer provide a platform of preference for open minds and intuitive thinkers.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  117. stickman says:
    @Carroll Price

    Some good, original observations.

  118. @Tom Welsh

    And why does an American judge believe that the FSIA does not apply to the government of Iran?

    The answer is simple. It’s because the entire US judicial system (local, state and federal, including the US Supreme Court) are all under the control of Zionist Jews, who also dictate what’s being taught in every university law school in the US and western Europe.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  119. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    Geokat still has panties in a knot over a “disparging remark”. Giraldi and i had a brief exchange of notes after all of that and i can say that we arrived at a form of modus vivendi. But as an avowed defender of the realm and keeper of the records, Geo cannot get his hooks out of this new poster who has not yet paid his full dues as a member of the ‘fraternity’.

    Another atheist philosopher? Perhaps. Like economics, atheism is but a dismal science, much indebted to Rene Des Cartes (who did receive one of his more important insights in a dream); Jeremy Bentham in his ultimately deserved desiccated state; and the egregious Charles Darwin, whose THEORY of evolution devolves deeper and deeper into the dreads of the underworld, the more it is exposed to historical analysis. Then we come to Karl Marx and his theories of scientific materialism and suchlike rationalistic nonsense. As has been pointed out by those schooled in quantum physics, rationalism based on the nostrums of “scientific” materialism, is but a 19th Century model and has been found to be quite void of ineffable insight.

    Cosmic Consciousness is neither quantifiable, nor capable of being successively tested under laboratory conditions. Some self-styled arbiters of intellectual acceptability are still mired in the morasses of moral certitude based on nothing more substantial than thin air. Mad Donna sings for them as the penultimate “Material Girl”.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  120. @War for Blair Mountain

    I was just wondering when a Zionist troll would materialize.

  121. @The Alarmist

    9/11 is similar to the JFK murder and Pearl Harbor in that most of the major participants and beneficiaries of all three crimes have been identified, with Israel and Zionist Jews being the major participates and beneficiaries in all three cases. Due to Jewish control over the MSM the only thing lacking is the complete absence of anything approaching a meaningful investigation.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  122. @hbm

    Rest assured that there’s nothing in the 28 pages that would shed any real light on the details surrounding 9/11. At this point, the 28 pages are being introduced to serve as a smoke screen to divert attention away from Israel’s obvious involvement in 9/11, along with attention away from the failing US dollar.

    • Replies: @hbm
  123. Sam Shama says:
    @stickman

    Are you upset?

    Its not a good condition to be in, especially in your seventh decade. Also befuddling; it is not typical with advancing years to pen opinions based on ‘first impressions’, exactly congruent with my charge of ‘inflicting instant judgement’.

    You noticed my British spelling [how perspicacious!] just as I diagnosed your thruther cholera.

    And, I am not an academic [nor an academicist, whatever that is, unless you meant academician].

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @stickman
  124. @Anonymous

    I partially agree. Without a doubt, the airliners would have been directed to their targets by the on-board flight controllers which had been re-programmed to perform that specific job. Ask any commercial airline pilot and he or she will tell you that pre-programmed flight controllers installed as standard equipment on all airliners are capable of flying planes to specific GPS locations with much greater accuracy and precision than that of the most skillful pilot could ever hope to accomplish. The hi-jacker scenario is BS nonsense. There would have been no need for hi-jackers.

  125. Sam Shama says:
    @stickman

    Suspicious looking word salad and I am not a buyer. Perhaps you smoked it earlier, mate.

    • Replies: @stickman
  126. geokat62 says:
    @stickman

    Geokat still has panties in a knot…

    How did you know I wore panties? I thought you said you were a former journalist, but I’m starting to suspect you’re just a replacement for Edward Snowden’s old job at the NSA.

    Giraldi and i had a brief exchange of notes after all of that and i can say that we arrived at a form of modus vivendi.

    Glad to hear it.

    Geo cannot get his hooks out of this new poster who has not yet paid his full dues as a member of the ‘fraternity’.

    Since you reached a rapprochement with Giraldi, consider the hooks officially removed.

    Another atheist philosopher?

    Now, with respect to the remainder of your post, I haven’t the foggiest idea what your talking about. Care to clearly state what your personal creed is with respect to science and religion?

    • Replies: @stickman
  127. @Moi

    gramps,
    Here it is all in one article, with no wild theories etc. As I said in an earlier post, all the main participates are known and many of the details. The only thing lacking is a real investigation. Which will not occur as long as the perpetuators of the crime remain in charge of investigating themselves. It’s that simple. https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it

  128. @NoseytheDuke

    As to whether a plane or a missile struck the Pentagon, or whether an airliner crashed into the ground near Somerset, PA is immaterial. Arguing over specific details that can never be proven one way or the other distracts from the fact that 9/11 was an inside job, the details of which will never be known or understood unless a meaningful investigation is conducted by those not involved in the crime. Since they accomplish nothing, endless haggling over questionable details should stop.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  129. @Carroll Price

    Would you care to spell out the part played by Zionist Jews in Pearl Harbour given with names, motives and methods?

    Presumably you start with the common view that Roosevelt wanted to get the US into the war started by Germany and that the Axis agreement made provocation of Japan (albeit well justified by Japan’s treatment of China) a workable way to go. Whether he knew any detail about the actual attack beforehand isn’t critical to this thesis is it? Obviously Jews in America would have supported Roosevelt’s foreign policy but who were your Zionist Jews and how did they insert themselves into the action do as to bring about Pearl Harbour?

    And what did they have to do with JFK’s murder snd why?

  130. @Carroll Price

    With Scalia still on SCOTUS there were 6 Catholics out of 9 judges.

    How does that fit with your thesis about Zionist control?

    And what subjects and what doctrines in law schools do you say are dictated by Zionist Jews? I am not aware for example of any changes over 120 years or so in the teaching of subjects that I used to teach like Legal History (Magna Carta, Statute of Uses, Chancery courts jurisdiction etc etc), Contract, Torts, etc. so what are you saying? What law school did you attend? With which are you familiar?

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  131. @Rurik

    I see in your links two pictures of people who presumably you cite irrelevantly as exceptions to my merely ststistical generalisations and one link that is a dud and won’t work. Would you care to expose further the eorkings of your own mind on my argument?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  132. @Sam Shama

    Of course I agree with what you have written – except for “where a diverse, well-informed, readership keeps nonsense at bay” – because sadly I think only Dr Pangloss could ignore the swarming of ever more maddies to UR, Stickman and NosytheDuke being the latest without displacing any of the old screamers.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  133. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    ‘Not enough evidence

    but that’s what we’re saying Geo

    that’s our point! We’re being expected to believe an outrageously ludicrous absurdity. That a steel and concrete building can >poof< into nothing because some office furniture was on fire. And that journalists can know before it happed that it's going to happen, just well.. they all guessed it! Yea, they just were really lucky, and guessed that this impossibility would happen right {before} it did.

    What we're saying is that is preposterous, and that we're not bloody fools. If you want to tell us that pigs can fly (to use JR's analogy), then we need some proof of this. Otherwise, we're saying the official account is bullshit.

    That's all.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    , @geokat62
  134. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Now Sam, please don’t assume that age brings wisdom or discretion. Plenty of the elderly are just erratic old cranks.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  135. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    here your [partial] quote

    I am sure you knew, as I do, journalists, editors and producers who are financially independent enough to pursue their principled aims and dreams and who, just as a member of the Bar may proudly uphold the great traditions of ensuring representation even for the reviled, rejoice in the valiant-for-truth role of the investigative journalist

    then I posted a picture of Michael Hastings to underscore “the valiant-for-truth role of the investigative journalist”. Because he was murdered for real investigative journalism, and his murder covered up by the murderers and his employer, The Rolling Stones ragazine.

    I did that to point out the level of principled and independent journalism today, when the best of them are burned alive for asking the wrong questions. And then where are all the “journalists, editors and producers who are financially independent enough to pursue their principled” traditions of finding out what happened to one of their own? Why hasn’t there been one mainstream investigative journalist willing to look into that story? Eh wiz?

    Any thoughts on that?

    as for the last link, just try it again. Sometimes it takes twice clicking on it. It’s an image of the NYT reporting on Syria’s use of chemical weapons that like everything else, the NYT lies about.

    That’s what our mainstream journalists do today. They tell official lies and run cover for the super-criminals and war pigs running the fecal gov. Wouldn’t you agree?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  136. Sam Shama says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    LOL. It actually brings back memories of operattas with granny; she was Pangloss to my Candide, according to some!

  137. Will the missing 28 pages prove a controlled demolition, the planes were actually holographic, the towers were painted in nano-thermite, and that jet fuel totally doesn’t melt steel?

    /sarcasm

    • Replies: @dcite
  138. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Doesn’t always does it?

    Well I suppose the ending words of Billie Jean then, for old stickman to listen to?

    “..strong advice, remember to always think twice”

    • Replies: @stickman
  139. dcite says:
    @Sean the Neon Caucasian

    They should have discovered that jet fuel melts steel so quickly and easily, at a much earlier date. Might have saved the steel industry in this country with its sheer innovation. Does anyone REALLY believe 19 Arabs (many of whom were still alive years later, and the country of Saudi Arabia sued the FBI over their misidentity) with box cutters subdued all the passengers including rather tall and hefty men (one of whom was an American with dual Israeli citizenship, and was a trained assassin) and all this orchestrated by a lone critter (and old Bush family buddy) OBL, dying of diabetes in a cave in Afghanistan. Truly, future generations will curse us when they are finished laughing at us, for us letting our “leaders” lead us into temptation and hell.
    This was a freaking Hollyweird script. You can just see them sitting around thinking up “let it roll” dialogue and good Christian American folk heroes whose families are oddly forgotten. I don’t know exactly what brought the towers down, but down they were, in about the two minutes it took me to glance at the tv screen as my government building was being evacuated. I think I believed the official story for about 2 days.

  140. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    Mid-Springtime is a busy season on the homestead. Still wood to cut and stack. Rockwork to be done. Gardening. Raking. It goes on and on. So i try to stick to current material in my net time. Perhaps in mid-Summer when things have slowed down i’ll find the time to check up on some of those 607 articles. I know that i have already read some of Giraldi’s work on various alternative sites. Thanx for the link.

  141. @Wizard of Oz

    That’s 6 Catholics and 3 Jews, with a 4th Jew to be added within the next few months. Resulting in that most curious of statistics relating to Jews, who represent less than 2% of the US population, comprising 44 percent of the Supreme Court judges who make final decisions connected with contentious issues that directly affect 100 percent of the American people. As to changes in legal philosophy obtain a 1930 and a 20012 edition law dictionary and take a look at the drastic changes that have been made in legal definitions too numerous to mention. As to law schools with which I am familiar, I am familiar with the Law School of common Sense which I attended for the past 75 years, and one which you obviously know nothing about.

  142. Sam Shama says:
    @stickman

    [Try and name me one institution which is not filled with careerists, climbers and clingers and i’ll shoot that argument down so fast ,,,]

    The Buddhist Association of America?

    • Replies: @stickman
  143. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hah! Sam the Sham finds a hook. Some folks (usually P.C. types) call that ageism. In this instance they are on target. So who’s upset already? It upsets Sam that i’m calling his sham. Somehow he manages to equate a single propensity towards Anglicized spelling with cholera? Somebody’s a bit short on original ideas, methinks.

    Though admittedly a neologism, “academicist” succinctly describes one who is ensorcelled by the poses and pretenses of the academic world, particularly those who proudly claim the status of “social scientists”. The very term is totally oxymoronic and most academics (with numerous exceptions among those who ply the pathways of hard sciences) as well as them that have lost their capacity for discernment as well as any claim to common sense are firmly attached to the intellectual deficiencies revealed by a desperate clinging to false standards of social analysis.

  144. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam the Sham prefers meat hot off the barbie to word salad, as he terms intellectualized discourse. Sad.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  145. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    Personal creed: Oh my. Don’t think i have one. Classically i am NOT a believer.

    One of my friends happens to be a recovering Trotskyite ~ though still an ardent Marxist. He is also a Positivist, an Existentialist and a “scientific materialist”. He believes there are no such phenomena as chemtrails. He also believes the official government/MSmedia conspiracy theory of 19 Arabs with boxcutters magically able to shut down U$ air defenses for upwards of two hours. He may even believe that Mohammed Atta’s pristine passport magically wafted down on the sidewalks of New York on 911. He most manifestly does NOT believe in any such “silliness” as reincarnation or anything quite as “unscientific” as spirituality. Yet, despite numerous quarrels, we do remain friends.

    My friend does have problems with the dislodgement of materialist viewpoints by the majority of quantum physicists. My friend, now approaching his mid seventies, recently blurted out to me that “I’m getting old”. You see, he believes that any possible afterlife and interdimensional possibility are nothing but fictions. He lives in fear of his own future.

  146. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    A bit of advise for Sam the Sham from Bob Dylan: “He not busy being born is busy dying”.

  147. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    Perhaps i should have signified MAJOR institution. You had to dig deep for that one. Just goes to tell.

  148. Sam Shama says:
    @stickman

    Though admittedly a neologism, “academicist” succinctly describes one who is ensorcelled by the poses and pretenses of the academic world, particularly those who proudly claim the status of “social scientists”

    and

    word salad, as he terms intellectualized discourse.

    Oh I say, please do stop, won’t you?!!! LMAO

    “word salad” was clearly unequal to the task at hand; more like last week’s dead mutton with Haggis. Pray where do you get these words?

    For your benefit I blockquote from Fowler’s “King’s English”

    Any one who wishes to become a good writer should endeavour, before he allows himself to be tempted by the more showy qualities, to be direct, simple, brief, vigorous, and lucid.
    This general principle may be translated into practical rules in the domain of vocabulary as follows :
    1.Prefer the familiar word to the far-fetched.
    2.Prefer the concrete word to the abstract.
    3.Prefer the single word to the circumlocution.
    4.Prefer the short word to the long.
    5.Prefer the Saxon word to the Romance.

    Also, I don’t do social science, God’s work more like it. And I think we all are getting rather a suntan by the rays of your intellect.

    • Replies: @stickman
  149. @Carroll Price

    I disagree. In order for a tipping point of awareness to be reached amongst the general public there first has to be an complete awareness of the impossibility of the official narrative and anger at being lied to. Only then can there be a groundswell of demand for a new and open investigation.

    The WTC 7 collapse, the pictures taken immediately after the Pentagon attack and the total absence of any debris at Shanksville serve to do just that, if you believe you eyes, that is.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  150. @Rurik

    I agree with you Rurik. It puzzles me why fence straddling columnist who would like to avoid being banished into everlasting obscurity by the Establish, while at the same time, wishing to appear honest and on the level to un-brainwashed readers, would not simply insert the word alleged immediately in front of all statements of “fact” incessantly repeated as such by Establishment propagandist who are paid big money for doing just that. For example, why not simply write or say: alleged hi-jackers, alleged terrorist, alleged holocaust, alleged 6 million etc. etc. The long and short of it, is that nothing becomes a fact simply because MSM hacks and government propagandist report it as fact.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  151. Sam Shama says:
    @Carroll Price

    Idiots. Don’t think the Donald will care.

  152. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    If you want to tell us that pigs can fly (to use JR’s analogy), then we need some proof of this. Otherwise, we’re saying the official account is bullshit.

    Forget about what I have to tell you. Let’s listen to what Dylan Avery, the creator of the Loose Change films, has to say about the MIHOP hypothesis:

    And though questions still linger about 9/11,… he no longer tortures himself with speculation. “In my truly angry times, in 2005 or 2006, if you asked if the Bush administration planned the attacks, I would have said, ‘Fuck yeah’.”

    But now?

    “I don’t think Bush could plan a bowl of cereal,” he says.

    http://www.vocativ.com/usa/us-politics/rapid-rise-fall-dylan-avery/

    Here’s a glimpse into Dylan Avery’s recovery process:

    The Conspiracy Hangover (p.52 of 83)

    “Dude, I said that in 2005. I said that in 2005, you guys on the Internet are still bickering over things I said six years ago! … You have no life. You have no life. You have no life.” – Dylan Avery, 11 September 2011

    Naturally, there is a downside to the mnemonic appeal used by the Truth Movement. Now that the conspiracy theory has peaked, many Truthers find it incredibly difficult to walk away, or even to change their beliefs. Their behavior in these final stages of the conspiracy theory provides additional evidence of mental fixation brought about and encouraged by the Internet. This fixation can go far beyond the usual limits of stubbornness or even obsessive-compulsive behavior. If anything, it more closely resembles an addiction.

    Dylan Avery gives us a particularly crisp example. After the debacle of Loose Change: Final Cut, he announced his departure from the Truth Movement, intending to move on to more ordinary film projects. At the time, there were those who doubted he had ever been a Truther to begin with, instead suspecting he had merely exploited the Movement to make a name for himself. Likewise, there were skeptics who argued he had only been in it for the money, and was now departing after his gamble had failed. But whatever his true motivation, it was called The Final Cut long before it flopped – come success or failure, it was time to move on.

    Except he returned soon afterward. In September 2009 he created yet another version, called Loose Change: An American Coup, which was no more successful than its predecessor. And in September 2011 he recanted again, telling Jeremy Stahl that he was now merely focused on why the Government hadn’t prevented the (presumably legitimate) terrorist attack, a position completely incompatible with tales of missing jetliners, explosives, and international media complicity featured in his movies. He remarks that he had been “sucked in” much more than he should have been. Later, when asked in person to clarify his new ideas at the tenth anniversary memorial, he merely stated that he believed in a cover-up, and beyond that, “what I believe doesn’t matter… I don’t use ‘inside job.’” The conclusion we draw from this portrait is that he still hasn’t escaped, even though he seems to know he should.

    http://www.911myths.com/tgitc_1_0_final.pdf

  153. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Fascinating. Wasn’t aware of this. Thanks Geo.

  154. stickman says:
    @Sam Shama

    Like H. L. Mencken i prefer American English to that of the King, or your bloody Quean for that matter. When dealing with a pair of pseudo-intellectuals, i do tend to use one fifty-dollar word to replace half a dozen $5 words. Unfortunately, they went whistling over your head.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @stickman
  155. Rurik says:
    @Carroll Price

    For example, why not simply write or say: alleged hi-jackers, alleged terrorist, alleged holocaust…

    I think we’re moving in that direction Carroll, but I also believe it’s a little drastic to hope for some of these people to start openly doubting the holy Holocaust. Which is of course, the very foundation of the religion of the West these days. We’re all supposed to genuflect to the ‘six million’, and wallow in contrition for what ‘we’ve’ done. Just look at any who don’t blubber their fealty to the holy Holocaust. Men like Jean-Marie Le Pen are smeared and charged and fined (just recently another €30,000)- not for doubting the gas chambers, but for simply suggesting they weren’t the defining moment in human history.

    Some sixty million+ people were slaughtered or burned alive or raped and hacked to pieces in that Jewish/banker/Zionist orchestrated collective insanity- yet the people of the West are warned not to honor the memory of our ancestors who died so horribly and heroically, because the imposed narrative (under threat of arrest and prison) is that evil Germans and assorted evil white Christians tried to kill god on earth (because we’re fundamentally evil). And we must all stare aghast at what we’ve done, and must be punished accordingly by being slowly genocided and spiritually bludgeoned with guilt so that Never Again! can white folks be allowed to control their own destiny.

    If they suspect you of trying to denigrate this enforced religion of the West, you’ll get the David Duke treatment and be scourged and hounded from all corners (if not fined and jailed in many countries of the dying [being murdered] West). Same with doubting 911. That handiwork of theirs was quite the gamble, and they’re betting on being able to bribe and bully this atrocity into yet another victory over the stupid goyim.

    So I’m satisfied at the tepid if somewhat nuanced take on these things by men like Giraldi, even if it seems a little mousy. I’m saying these things anonymously, and I have little to lose by doing so, so I’ll accept that people like Phil and Ron Paul and others are simply not willing to give the rebel yell and tell these assorted liars and intellectual thugs to eat shit, because they have too much to lose by doing so, and the collective narrative is not quite ready for that yet.

    But we’re getting there Carroll. We’re getting there 😉

    • Agree: SolontoCroesus
  156. @Rurik

    I’ve never been a journalist but I’ve known hundreds of then (including TV journalists, presenters and producers, and editors) some of them very well. Some lazily decide to accept the advantages they think are available to them by not upsetting ministers or their senior staff but the general rule, at least in Australia, is that they are competitive and therefore keen to be the ones who disclose something big and different. Despite my friends generally regarding our ABC, like the BBC, as left wing, it is at least independent of those who would try to use money to buy favour.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  157. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Forget about what I have to tell you. Let’s listen to what Dylan Avery, the creator of the Loose Change films, has to say

    Why?!

    did he come up with some evidence for how pigs can fly?

    “I don’t think Bush could plan a bowl of cereal,” he says.

    OH!!

    Well, that changes everything!

    If Bush is a (universally considered) imbecile, then of course pigs can fly!

    I guess the assumption is that if the chimp didn’t personally orchestrate the entire thing = then it must have been the man in the cave in Afghanistan with the laptop and his nineteen henchmen (who couldn’t fly a Cessna)!

    If Bush didn’t shut down NORAD and SACs = then it must have been Osama!

    If Bush didn’t wire the buildings for demolition personally, or at least supervise it all = then it must have been Osama!

    Geo, nobody cares what one guy has to say. There is no one person of persons upon whom the whole truth movement is hinged. Individuals and personalities don’t matter one whit. There are charlatans and opportunists everywhere on every issue. Who gives a damn if one of them careens into ‘pigs can fly!’, and then back to ‘no they can’t, and then back to ‘yes they can’. It has exactly zero bearing on anything.

    The facts are pigs can’t fly. Steel buildings don’t vaporize from the inside out instantaneously. There is no rationalization that can make that impossibility into a possibility. No. It can not happen. And no amount of celebrities or academics or ‘scientists or politicians or movie makers can change that.

    That’s where we are. Pigs can’t fly.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  158. @geokat62

    The conclusion we draw from this portrait is that he still hasn’t escaped, even though he seems to know he should.

    Escaped from what — from belief in the government narrative or from a belief that the government narrative is false?

    The Four Horseman video documentary opens with an introduction of the concept of “controlling the cognitive map.” —

    “Elites try to stay in power; they do so not only by controlling the means of production but by controlling the cognitive map — the way we think. What really matters in that regard is not so much what is said in public but what is left undebated, unsaid.

    “For centuries gatekeepers have manipulated our cognitive map.”

    In 1989, when the WorldWideWeb went public, “a tsunami of information became freely available. . . an event as momentous as Gutenberg’s press [in Western Europe].”

    Think of the WWW as a kind of antibiotic.

    If one can view the government narrative as the ongoing effort by elites to control the cognitive map as a viral infection; and conceptualize Avery’s work to resist or expel that infection, then perhaps his current state of confusion is the result of failing to take the full cycle of antibiotics; or perhaps antibiotics have lost their effectiveness through overuse.

    Poor Avery is in a state where he can’t be certain if he’s got a viral infection or if he’s relieved of it.

    I’m no physician; I still use the peasant remedies learned from my Mother: hot orange juice, honey and whiskey; a salt bag around the throat; Vicks Vapo-Rub in a tea kettle of water on a hot plate to steam the room, and under the covers until the germs are sweated out, that’s the ticket.

    Or you can inoculate yourself. I recommend the C Span vaccine: its advantages are that it is deemed the “most trustworthy” of all American media outlets. Take this dose, for example: Lisa Curtis of Heritage Foundation holding forth on what the US should do to “defeat ISIS” in Syria.
    http://www.c-span.org/video/?408478-3/washington-journal-lisa-curtis-us-strategy-isis

    Take notes; put the conversation under the microscope; count the germs, assess their character. Observe how your cognitive immune system responds.
    A few examples:

    “US is adopting the Israeli tactic of “knocking on the roof” of locations they intend to destroy.”
    What does your immune system (aka value system) think of that?

    ~30 min, “Russia is not helpful in this fight; the Russians do not share our goals.”
    Test that against some other medicines, like Moon of Alabama, for instance — http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/04/syria-russia-rejects-kerrys-new-attempts-to-shield-the-terrorists.html
    Which internet/antibiotic seems to have the purest ingredients, more likely to cure what ails your cognitive map?

    31 min into the interview a caller identified himself as a WWII veteran and asserted that “Saddam was killed by his own people.”
    Curtis agreed: “The people of Iraq hated Saddam, they really hated him. The USA hunted him down, then the Iraqi people tried him and executed him.”

    Is that the reality, or did Curtis just administer a booster shot to a poison pill?
    If the “people of Iraq” hated Saddam so intensely, why did he remain alive from 1991, when G H W Bush & his team were “99% certain the people of Iraq would side with US and overthrow Saddam,” until the last day of 2006 when Saddam was hanged?

    Why did it take US operatives to find Saddam rather than the Iraqi people?
    That little germ is cognitively toxic, Ms. Curtis. Bad medicine.

    What are Curtis’s credentials? Anyone can mouth off, but not everyone gets on C Span, and C Span is supposed to be the best.
    Curtis is from Fort Wayne, Indiana — salt of the earth stuff; soft voice, matronly demeanor. She works for Heritage Foundation; she was on Richard Lugar’s staff; she’s worked in Senate Foreign Relations and for State Department on South Asia affairs. She’s no dummy and she’s plugged in. She’s got a terrific bedside manner.

    If someone with all the high-level access, skills, and connections of Lisa Curtis, and the Powellian credibility factor of C Span, can lie to you so blatantly, why should you believe or entrust your cognitive health to anybody in similar positions, including wrt 9/11?

    That’s just 30 minutes of exposure to one low-level medic operating out of a very high-level US government cognitive map-adjustment facility, C Span. If your granddaughter were sick, would you take her to the equivalent of (Dr.) Lisa Curtis at the C Span wellness center?

    Try the orange juice and Vicks.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  159. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Despite my friends generally regarding our ABC, like the BBC, as left wing, it is at least independent of those who would try to use money to buy favour.

    what I’m saying Wizard is that the press in the West is not controlled by people with lots of money per se. Rather the press in the West has become controlled by the state. If I wanted to run an ad doubting some aspect of the Holocaust, there is no mainstream media outlet in the controlled West that would allow me to do that. I could show “art” like a crucifix in a bucket of piss, and I’d be celebrated, but to question some aspect of the Holocaust will not be tolerated in the Western press for any amount of money.

    Here’s a video that sort of lays it all out..

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Wizard of Oz
  160. Sam Shama says:
    @stickman

    When dealing with a pair of pseudo-intellectuals, i do tend to use one fifty-dollar word to replace half a dozen $5 words.

    The word ‘Projection’ is available cost-free, and duly applied.
    cheers.

  161. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik,

    re: the Holocaust, I will freely concede that I am prickly, and only so for the reason of hearing first-hand accounts of it from my grandmother. Stories like those are not easily compartmentalised in the human brain. To repeat my stand on the matter, it is of small importance to me what the precise number of Jews killed were [6m or 600k]; the fact is a great many souls were were sent on their way to meet the Maker. So, Jews remember their own, and so should Russians, Germans, Poles, Norwegians, etc., the reason being obvious: a cautionary device that serves as a reminder against repetition.

    I don’t count myself amongst those who would see the destruction of religion [by Marxists and Trotskyites], of institutions, of culture, of common memory, as if by merely doing so, one rapidly summons great ‘good’ – without bothering to define this ‘good’. The Marxists in particular, you’ll notice, need to be a bit savage. To paraphrase Keynes, it isn’t quite enough for them to love their fellow men, but rather compulsory that the cadre possess a certain hatred for them as well. And that, I might posit, is the source of savaging the idea of the Christ; after two thousand years its all ‘Art’.

    As far as the Holocaust is concerned, I am sure its really a question of time, time over which it fades from common memory to the point where excoriating its details, even irreverently, will be ‘Art’ as well, although I hardly think its going to take a couple of millenia.

  162. @NoseytheDuke

    Well duke you do sorta make a point, but why can’t we all just settle on condemning the entire 9/11 narrative for the fairy tale it is. What’s the point of hammering away on specific details of a story containing gaps and holes large enough to drive an aircraft carrier through? Immature kids might argue over the exact size and location of the bean-stalk that jack climbed, but is that a conversation any adult with an IQ larger than his waist size would engage in?

  163. Must reading for those who still believe Israel never has and “would not be the first to introduce” nukes to ME:

    Eric Margolis: Remember the Golan Heights?

    During the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, Syrian forces had surprised Israel and were fast approaching the edge of the steep Golan Heights, captured by Israel during the 1967 war. It seemed as if Syrian armor and infantry would retake Golan, then pour down into Israeli Galilee.

    Soviet recon satellites observed Israel moving its nuclear-armed, 500km-range Jericho missiles out of protective caves and onto their launch pads. At the same time, Israel was seen loading nuclear bombs on their US-supplied F-4 fighter-bombers at Tel Nof airbase.

    Believing Israel was about to use nuclear weapons against Syria and Egypt, Moscow put huge pressure on both to rein in their advancing forces. Damascus, already in range of Israeli artillery on Golan, ordered its armored forces on Golan to halt, allowing Israel to mount powerful counter-attacks and retake the strategic heights.

  164. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Orange juice, Vix and a sufficient quantity of cynicism. Nevertheless, a very well expressed post.

  165. @geokat62

    So tell me geo, how in hell does one go about unlearning what he’s learned. For instance, I’m struggling right now with trying to unlearn what I learned about the holohoax. And to make matters worse, just a few days ago, a friend of mine told me I’d just as well stop trying, accompanied by a quote uttered by some obscure thinker that went something like; “Once expanded the human mind can be contracted again.” So what am I supposed to do?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  166. stickman says:
    @stickman

    Retroprojection is the equivalent of rejection.

  167. @Sam Shama

    As far as the Holocaust is concerned, I am sure its really a question of time, time over which it fades from common memory to the point where excoriating its details, even irreverently, will be ‘Art’ as well, although I hardly think its going to take a couple of millenia.

    I would bet my pay-day loan profits on it. After several thousand years, millions of well-intentioned Christians recite the miracle of the Garden of Eden, the Virgin Birth, and Jews fleeing Egypt by way of the Red Sea and on dry land as gospel truth. For the same reason they believe hundreds of other tall tales written down by Jewish scribes and trotted out to the gullible fact. Which maybe partially explains why large numbers of dim-wits among us accept the 9/11 fairly tale as proven fact.

  168. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    The facts are pigs can’t fly. Steel buildings don’t vaporize from the inside out instantaneously. There is no rationalization that can make that impossibility into a possibility. No. It can not happen.

    Look, Rurik, as you know, we’ve already thoroughly debated this issue on another thread. Rather than rehashing it here, suffice to say that I cited the evidence presented by a rocket scientist at NASA (Ryan Mackey) who says it can happen and provides the scientific explanation for how it happened, in painstaking detail. He rebuts each and every one of the Truthers “what about this” points, on the basis of the available evidence and using the principles of structural engineering.

    I highly recommend UNZ readers to go through it, all of it, to reach their own conclusions.

    https://sites.google.com/site/911guide/ryanmackey

    • Replies: @stickman
    , @L.K
    , @Rurik
  169. geokat62 says:
    @Carroll Price

    So tell me geo, how in hell does one go about unlearning what he’s learned

    .

    Well, CP, since we’re not talking about mathematical equations but hypotheses about physical events and their causes, I think it’s more accurate to ask “how in hell does one go about unbelieving what one’s come to believe?”

    And the answer to that question is a simple one: investigating a subject sufficiently well to be in a position to draw the proper conclusions, on the basis of the available evidence.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  170. geokat62 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    If someone with all the high-level access, skills, and connections of Lisa Curtis, and the Powellian credibility factor of C Span, can lie to you so blatantly, why should you believe or entrust your cognitive health to anybody in similar positions, including wrt 9/11?

    So which of the two hypotheses – LIHOP or MIHOP – do you subscribe to, S2C, and why? Also, please cite the evidence upon which you base your preferred hypothesis.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  171. @geokat62

    And the answer to that question is a simple one: investigating a subject sufficiently well to be in a position to draw the proper conclusions, on the basis of the available evidence.

    Which I have done since about 2009. Leading me to the inescapable conclusion (based on mathematical equations and hypotheses about physical events and their causes) confirms that like Santa Clause and Alice In Wonderland, the official version of 9/11 is a fairy tale. That and nothing more.

  172. @Rurik

    UTYour Holocaust advertisement example suggests a big retreat by you from a more extravagant full blown attack on media. After all there is nothing hidden about such formal or informal rules. In sime countries it is a matter of necessarily public legislation. In others it is current PC, also well known. It is also well known thst other countries and cultures contest the conventional Western view of the Holocaust. So it really falls within the general range of exceptions to the free speech rules that all Western countries follow in some degree, though without full blooded First Amendment protection.

    Truther views if the media involve much more profound mind control! And mind control is very far from achieved with a majority of the media people I know. Many would rejoice in shamelessly saying “I was totally wrong in my rejection of the story that a travelling band of Transgender comedians was used to infiltrate the WTC unnoticed and plant the thermite bit by bit from their makeup bags”.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  173. @geokat62

    LIHOP ?? MIHOP??
    I don’t eat pancakes.

    Sorry, I don’t understand what you are referring to.

    If it’s about 9/11, I have not spent much time and effort researching the topic, nor do I feel a compelling need to do so. I know the US-Israel government narrative is a fraud; I don’t know exactly what happened and who did it; I do know it did not happen as government sources / elites have claimed it did — this Panorama video docu iimplicates neocons persuasively http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article8581.htm

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jilA-ZeBUI4#t=81

    I do know that Benjamin Netanyahu & his father, whom Avigail Abarbanel has diagnosed as a psychopath, rolled out the blueprint for the GWOT in July 1979, so I consider 9/11 and all that flows from it one more element in the 100-year long zionist criminal enterprise (just listened to Jeff Gates discuss his book, Guilt By Association — useful information:)

    On a related topic — there’s an interesting discussion at SicSemperTyrannis — http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/04/syrian-iraqi-armies-launch-joint-campaign-to-defeat-isis-analysis-ttg.html

    The basis is a report from Al Masdar News that the Iraqi army and Assad’s Syrian Army are working together, from opposite directions, to drive ISIS out of Syrian desert regions:

    The SAA continues their offensive from Palmyra towards Deir Ez-Zor while the Iraqi Army and Popular Mobilization Forces have taken Hit and are on the outskirts of Al-Baghdadi. The goal is to meet up at the border crossing at Al-Qa’im.

    It is claimed that the ambitious scheme is coordinated by Tehran.

    The participants on Lang’s blog are knowledgeable and credible –unlike Lisa Curtis on C Span this morning.
    When John Kerry’s feverish diplomacy with Russia concerning Syria, is viewed through Moon of Alabama’s perspective, http://www.moonofalabama.org/2016/04/syria-russia-rejects-kerrys-new-attempts-to-shield-the-terrorists.html

    and combined with the Al Masdar News report, qualified by the expressed skepticism and nuanced explanations offered by SicSemperTyrannis participants, especially Twisted Genius, who is active military I believe;

    and Babak Makkinejad http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2016/04/syrian-iraqi-armies-launch-joint-campaign-to-defeat-isis-analysis-ttg.html#comment-6a00d8341c72e153ef01bb08f249fb970d ,

    one begins to understand why the Washington elite – C-Span propaganda machine felt compelled to call upon the Heritage Foundation representative to reinforce in the great unwashed the cognitive distortions that Syria, Russia, Iran = evil and USA, Israel are on the side of the angels.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  174. geokat62 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    LIHOP ?? MIHOP??

    LIHOP = Let It Happen on Purpose
    MIHOP = Make It Happen on Purpose
    IHOP = International House of Pancakes

    I don’t know exactly what happened and who did it; I do know it did not happen as government sources / elites have claimed it did…

    I’m ok with that. What I take issue with is when those in the Truther Community (TC) who claim it is OBVIOUS that 9/11 was an inside job – i.e., it was MIHOP. And they say that it is OBVIOUS it was controlled demolition (CD) that brought down all 3 bldgs. And if you don’t agree that it is OBVIOUS then you must be one of those fools who believe that PIGS CAN FLY.

    As I’ve indicated in a previous post, Rurik and I have already debated this topic on another thread. I’ll leave you with this exchange which clearly outlines my views on 9/11:

    Hi, Rurik. As I’ve indicated before, I have no difficulty “going there.” If this weren’t true then why do I accept the Liberty was a deliberate attack that the American gov’t participated in covering up, or that the Bush administration lied about WMD, or the LBJ administration lied about the GofT, or that I reject the official narrative about who was responsible for the anthrax attacks that were carried out soon after 9/11, or the Obama administration lied about the use of chemical weapons by the Assad regime? If I had this so-called “iron sphere” of protective armor, none of these things should have been able to penetrate it.

    No, it has nothing to do with an impenetrable suit of armor. It has more to do with the requirement that a preponderance of evidence is needed to tip the scales in favour of one direction, rather than the other. I tend to accept that all these other incidents occurred because there was a preponderance of evidence to support it. That’s not the case for the LIHOP or MIHOP propositions. As I’ve indicated before, while I support an independent investigation into the role the Israelis played before, during, and after the events on 9/11, I am still skeptical of these propositions put forward by the TM.

    What would it take to convince me? To begin with, a lengthy rebuttal of Ryan Mackey’s 306-page paper, “Debunking 9/11 Debunking.” Specifically, I would like to see someone provide a detailed response to each of the following criticisms he makes regarding several of DRG’s claims:

    As we come to the end of this long section, let us summarize and correct the many and repeated errors made by Dr. Griffin:
     While rare, progressive collapse is a danger long understood by the structural engineering community, and not a new concept invented by NIST.

     NIST did not need to consider the late stages of building collapse in any detail, since earlier calculations demonstrated a total collapse was virtually inevitable once the impact floors collapsed.

     A total collapse is expected even without any damage or significant heating to areas well below the impact floors, because even if undamaged, the lower floors are not strong enough to dissipate the momentum of the falling section.

     Dr. Griffin’s claims that the collapses took 9 and 11 seconds are based on a misreading of the NIST FAQ, and video confirms that the collapses took several seconds longer, which is not “faster than free-fall” or even “virtually free-fall.”

     Dr. Griffin’s estimate of 45 seconds for total collapse is based on his unsupported estimate of one half-second per floor, and his belief that the collapse would not accelerate, somehow counteracting the acceleration due to gravity.

     The only support for his 45-second collapse time comes from Dr. Wood, whose analysis violates conservation of momentum and is totally indefensible.

     While it is true that some mass was lost in the form of dust, analysis of the dust reveals few heavy construction materials, and there is no evidence that this was a significant effect with respect to collapse time or speed.

     There is no credible evidence for explosions as the towers collapsed.

    Each of the points he makes above are falsifiable and therefore easily refuted by those who have a sounder knowledge of physics, especially structural engineering, than Mackey does.

    Finally, I’d like to see DRG finally accept an invitation to debate Ryan Mackey in an open forum… and debate these facts… and may the best man win!

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  175. @geokat62

    Geokat. The summation of your ridiculous diatribe is that the world may be flat after all. What a relief that must be for the Neanderthals amongst us.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  176. geokat62 says:
    @Carroll Price

    Geokat. The summation of your ridiculous diatribe is that the world may be flat after all. What a relief that must be for the Neanderthals amongst us.

    What can I say, CP, I guess it’s OBVIOUS that I’m just a Neaderthal making these ridiculous diatribes. I just wish I could be as serious as you Truther Homo sapiens.

    So, CP, just out of curiousity: do you think all 3 bldgs were brought down by nano-thermite or were the bldgs actually holograms that were never really impacted by commercial airplanes and the passengers on board all 4 planes were gassed to death so no one could leak the OBVIOUS truth to us Neanderthals?

    So, by all means, please do enlighten us Neanderthals, won’t you?

  177. @geokat62

    I can never get past the first three paragraphs of a Razib Khan article, so I’m working thru a MOOC, Introduction to Biology
    https://courses.edx.org/courses/course-v1:MITx+7.00x_3+2T2015/courseware/Week_1/Introduction/
    lectures by Eric Landers.

    Lesson 1, Landers said it’s likely homo sapiens mated with Neanderthals way back when; a guy named Trinkaus published an article in 2010 that showed that most of us homo sapiens have about 4% Neanderthal DNA.

    So you’re just tapping your inner Neanderthal, geokat62.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  178. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Neanderthals were according to most scientists, possessing of a much larger brain, therefore a far greater capacity to analyse without the reliance of a larger group. Be it so noted.

    Someone wise once said “Always trust those who say they are seeking the truth, and always doubt those who claim they have found the truth”

  179. @geokat62

    Go back to your crayons and coloring book.

  180. stickman says:
    @geokat62

    You trust somebody employed at NASA?

  181. L.K says:
    @geokat62

    Geokat, your beloved Ryan Mackey is nothing if not a cheap propagandist for the RIDICULOUS official 9-11 story, shame on you for bringing up this quack.

    His BS has been demolished already, for example;

    http://www.journalof911studies.com/letters/b/MackeyLetter.pdf
    http://911research.wtc7.net/reviews/mackey/

    If memory serves, it was also u, who brought up popular mechanics to shore up the crumbling official dossier, so here they were taken apart:
    Debunking the Real 9/11 Myths: Why Popular Mechanics Can’t Face up to Reality – Part 1
    http://www1.ae911truth.org/en/news-section/41-articles/604-debunking-the-real-911-myths-why-popular-mechanics-cant-face-up-to-reality-part-1.html

    Yeah, geokat, we all get it by now, in your world, pigs do fly…

    • Replies: @geokat62
  182. L.K says:

    The official 9-11 story is r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s and doesn’t have a leg to stand on.

    Few know that several of the high level 9-11 commissioners exhibited serious doubts as to the work of the commission.
    So did some CIA vets.
    Here are some quotes:

    Michael Scheuer, 22-year CIA veteran, Chief of the CIA’s Bin ladens unit at the counter-terrorism center 1996-99.
    On Fox News (10/09/10), Judge Andrew Napolitano asked Scheuer, “ Was the 9/11 Commission report a whitewash?”
    Scheuer replied, “ It was a WHITEWASH AND A LIE from top to bottom”.

    Robert Baer, 21-year CIA vet, considered by famous investigative journalist Seymour Hersh as ‘perhaps the best on-the-ground field officer in the middle east’.
    During an interview on the Tom Hartmann show(6/09/06), Hartmann asked him: “are you of the opinion there was an aspect of inside job to 9-11 within the US government?”

    Baer replied: “ There is that possibility. The evidence POINTS AT IT.”

    Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) – who led the 9/11 staff’s inquiry – said “At some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened“. He also said “I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.” And he said: “It’s almost a culture of concealment, for lack of a better word. There were interviews made at the FAA’s New York center the night of 9/11 and those tapes were destroyed. The CIA tapes of the interrogations were destroyed. The story of 9/11 itself, to put it mildly, was distorted and was completely different from the way things happened”.
    Farmer also said that the 9-11 commission executive director, Philip Zelikow(a ZIONIST), sent a small group of insiders a secret document outlining the commission’s PREDETERMINED conclusions.

    9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .” He also said that the investigation depended too heavily on the accounts of Al Qaeda detainees who were physically coerced into talking.

    9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton said “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, and that the 9/11 debate should continue ”

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”

  183. hbm says:
    @Carroll Price

    The Israel-did-9/11 fanatics will never be satisfied unless the giant post-hoc narrative they constructed is revealed to be true to the letter– and they might not even be satisfied then.

  184. geokat62 says:

    Yeah, geokat, we all get it by now, in your world, pigs do fly…

    I’m not ignoring you guys, I’m just a little busy today roasting a lamb on the spit, in celebration of Orthodox Easter. I’ll get back to those who’ve commented on my posts with a more fulsome response as soon as I finish putting away my crayons and colouring book… and stop flying my kite, which happens to be in the shape of a pig.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  185. @Carroll Price

    Brennan is spreading misinformation so Obama can refuse to release the pages because they are not confirmed information. The evidence for a close Saudi tie to the conspirators is irrefutable. The question of what the Saudi intentions were/are is probably unanswerable as they are not talking. Brennan is Obama’s stooge when it comes to creating fantasies that serve the Administration’s purposes, which in this case is to bury 9/11 completely as both Republicans and Democrats would look really bad if all the truth about it were to be revealed.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  186. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Steel buildings don’t vaporize from the inside out instantaneously. There is no rationalization that can make that impossibility into a possibility.

    Look, Rurik, as you know, we’ve already thoroughly debated this issue on another thread. Rather than rehashing it here, suffice to say that I cited the evidence presented by a rocket scientist at NASA (Ryan Mackey) who says it can happen and provides the scientific explanation for how it happened, in painstaking detail.

    >>sigh<<

    then I go to your more recent response with quotes from this "scientist"

    NIST did not need to consider the late stages of building collapse in any detail, since earlier calculations demonstrated a total collapse was virtually inevitable once the impact floors collapsed.

    is he even talking about building seven?! Or is he trying, (as usual) to obfuscate with idiocy regarding the other buildings?

    Ok, fine. So you and the sceient believe that modern steel frame buildings can vaporize from the inside out instantaneously, and the “scientist” even goes as far as to suggest that “total” collapse of buildings once they’re damaged is “inevitable”. Even tho we know of gobs of buildings where a controlled demolition goes wrong and even these buildings don’t do a “total” collapse. They fall over.

    But whatever. Let’s just pretend that if a modern steel frame building is damaged, even slightly = well then a total vaporization of it’s entire structure is not just possible, or likely, but “inevitable”, even tho it’s never happened in the history of the universe until late in the day on 911. Never mind all that. We’ll pretend like all of that is true.

    But then how do you explain how the media knew before hand that building seven was going to fall?

    watch them reading the explanation for how this happened, and tell me someone didn’t know that building was going to come down. Maybe it was your “scientist” who calculated that it’s vaporization was inevitable, once it had been damaged..

  187. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Huh?

    into the vino perchance wiz?

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  188. Rurik says:
    @Philip Giraldi

    The evidence for a close Saudi tie to the conspirators is irrefutable.

    which “conspirators” PG?

    I wonder what James Woolsey would say…

    (he’s my hero ; )

  189. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    their fellow men, but rather compulsory that the cadre possess a certain hatred for them as well.

    what else can explain things like fomenting world wars and gulags and Gitmos and “Casting Lead’ in Gaza and destroying country after country in the Middle East?

    Then, like Michael Vick with his dogs, they foist incompatible peoples into the same living space and watch with Michael Vick’s eyes as the blood fest plays out for their amusement.

    What is that if not a hatred of humanity?

    They have all the money in the world. They’re by far the most well off minority in the Western world. They do far better than even the majority. But that’s not enough! They have to watch others suffer and die and live in misery and humiliation. They have to foist strife and see hatreds unfold and push and push and push until people are ready to burst at the endless outrages and wars and tribal human dog fights in the streets.

    What is with that incessant, seemingly congenital need to hate others? Is it the religion?

    Why not just continue to amass wealth and perks galore? Why mash their host’s face in the mud until the rage is bursting and then they’re looking for an exit strategy- in places like France, where they had it so well. But they can’t leave it at that. They have some strange imperative to shit on their host, and push them into far-right survival mode. And I just consider this a curious and unfortunate trait, no?

  190. @Rurik

    Since you evidently lack the powers of observation or imagination to notice that a clumsy thumb on a smartphone produces the typos that were rather too frequent in my post – and that can have many innocent explanations – I invite you to turn to consideration of what you could, if attempting in good faith to understand, easily take in and respond to with a substantial answer, if you have one.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  191. @Rurik

    Reference to WTC 7 is to me as a disinterested (and largely uninterested) outsider the litmus test of a truther’s willingness to pay honest and diligent attention to evidence and logic.

    There is no sensible theory consistent with any of the truther nominations of the villains which involves planning to have WTC 7 burn all day and collapse.

    Furthermore there is plenty of evidence littering the www showing WTC 7 as having been set on fire early after the planes hit the towers presumably by something burning hitting it, then burning inside all day until the structure collapsed. (Presumably the fires would have set off explosives much earlier).

  192. Rurik says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I wasn’t talking about your typos Wizard, that’d be pretty brazen of me, knowing how badly I spell

    rather it was the rather peculiar language towards the end..

    UTYour Holocaust advertisement example suggests a big retreat by you from a more extravagant full blown attack on media

    No, my Holocaust example cuts precisely to the quick of my attack on big media, and the corruption behind it.

    After all there is nothing hidden about such formal or informal rules.

    nothing could be less true Wiz. The dishonestly of the Shoah and implied perpetual debt owed to Jews in general by that scam is not only hidden, but verboten to even mention.

    In sime countries it is a matter of necessarily public legislation. In others it is current PC, also well known. It is also well known thst other countries and cultures contest the conventional Western view of the Holocaust. So it really falls within the general range of exceptions to the free speech rules that all Western countries follow in some degree, though without full blooded First Amendment protection.

    Don’t you mean “free speech” rules?

    And why is that Wiz? Could our lack of free speech regarding the Holocaust have something to do with Jewish subversion of our open discourse on important matters of consequence? A sort of, imposed pall upon what we’re allowed to talk about? Why are there laws against asking questions about it in so many countries? Why do they put 85 year old ladies, (who’ve never had so much as a parking ticket), in prison for asking questions?

    Truther views if the media involve much more profound mind control! And mind control is very far from achieved with a majority of the media people I know. Many would rejoice in shamelessly saying “I was totally wrong in my rejection of the story that a travelling band of Transgender comedians was used to infiltrate the WTC unnoticed and plant the thermite bit by bit from their makeup bags”.

    this is where I figured you should have corked the bottle 😉

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  193. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    So you and the sceient believe that modern steel frame buildings can vaporize from the inside out instantaneously, and the “scientist” even goes as far as to suggest that “total” collapse of buildings once they’re damaged is “inevitable”… Maybe it was your “scientist” who calculated that it’s vaporization was inevitable, once it had been damaged..

    So, Rurik, the official narrative is bogus, I get it. And these are your two strongest arguments for why you’re convinced 9/11 was an inside job. While this admittedly is the “smoking gun,” to clinch your case, you still need to prove whose finger prints are on the gun. And what do Truthers point to to establish whose finger prints are on the gun? They say that because bldg 7 collapsed without being hit by a plane, all 3 bldgs must have been brought down by Controlled Demolition (CD). And since there is no audible evidence to support this assertion, they have to come up with an alternative explanation – i.e., it is OBVIOUS that nano-thermite must have been the magical substance that brought down all 3 bldgs.

    But here’s the hurdle the Truthers need to overcome for all the childish Neanderthals to arrive at the same conclusion that these adult Homo sapiens have arrived at:

    The thermite hypothesis implies that we must find large pools of formerly molten iron in the debris pile – the leftover puddle from the thermite device itself. There are no such blobs or pools of iron. Since, as Drs. Griffin and Jones suggest, the fires in the debris pile were not hot enough to melt steel, they should also not be hot enough to melt these iron blobs, and thus they would be expected to survive indefinitely. The amount of thermite required is also large, since approximately 140 kg of thermite is needed to melt each ton of steel, assuming perfect heating efficiency and no losses whatsoever due to thermal conductivity in the steel itself. We should, therefore, expect to find literally tons of formerly melted iron blobs in the debris pile. We have found none. Similarly, Dr. Griffin himself has presented no hard evidence of melted iron, even though he is clearly motivated to do so. – Ryan Mackie (NASA rocket scientist)

    You Truthers provide a satisfactory answer to this question and I’ll put down my crayons and colouring book and stop flying my kite that’s in the shape of a pig.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Jonathan Revusky
  194. geokat62 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    48th Annual Lewes Delaware Good Friday Kite Festival & 2nd Annual Easter Egg Hunt

    Thanks, but Orthodox Christians don’t do egg hunts.

    • Replies: @Carroll Price
  195. geokat62 says:
    @L.K

    [Ryan Mackey’s] BS has been demolished already, for example;

    Both Kevin Ryan’s and Jim Hoffman’s criticism were rebutted by Ryan Mackey in his revised white paper. My sense is that, to make this sort of comment, you must not have read all 306 pages of his updated paper. Give it a read, it’s a good one.

    Geokat, your beloved Ryan Mackey is nothing if not a cheap propagandist for the RIDICULOUS official 9-11 story, shame on you for bringing up this quack.

    And your beloved Kevin Ryan is nothing but a beacon of truth and a stellar example of those peddling the OBVIOUS inside job, kudos to you for bringing up this expert in environmental testing:

    Kevin Ryan’s position at Underwriters Laboratories was that of environmental testing, not structural certification or fire engineering. He was fired shortly after writing this letter, which he copied to Dr. Griffin among others, and which appeared in public shortly thereafter:

    “UL does not certify structural steel, such as the beams, columns and trusses used in World Trade Center,” said Paul M. Baker, the company’s spokesman.

    Ryan was fired, Baker said, because he “expressed his own opinions as though they were institutional opinions and beliefs of UL.”

    “The contents of the argument itself are spurious at best, and frankly, they’re just wrong,” Baker said. – p. 192 of the white paper

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
  196. @Rurik

    Even if the collapse was “inevitable” (which it wasn’t) the buildings still wouldn’t have collapsed accordion-style into a nice neat pile ready for shipment to China. Anyone who watches a real-time video of building 7 collapsing into it’s own footprint at free-fall acceleration and does not recognize a classic controlled demolition is an idiot (sorry for being so direct but that’s the only appropriate word for it). Due to being educated in science and technology, a full 90 percent of Europeans know without a doubt, that all e buildings coming down on 9/11 were brought down by controlled demolition. Roughly 60 percent of Americans (the same idiots who can’t name the capital city of the state they live in, or find the US on a map) are the only people on earth ignorant enough to buy the official story.

  197. @geokat62

    My in-laws are Orthodox Christians and they do egg hunts at our house. They like it too. So either they’re being hypocrites, or you’re full of s**t. I suspect the latter.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  198. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    good lord

    The amount of thermite required is also large, since approximately 140 kg of thermite is needed to melt each ton of steel,

    is he suggesting that the anyone is saying that the entire building’s steel beams were melted down?!

    Nobody is saying that the entire building’s steel was melted down at the moment of collapse. Just that enough thermite was used to cut the beams so that they’d fall into nice piles that could be efficiently and quickly and quietly scurried away to be shipped off and then melted down in China, including the massive blobs of melted steel (from the cut beams)

    that was also whisked away and then re-melted down).

    We should, therefore, expect to find literally tons of formerly melted iron blobs in the debris pile. We have found none

    did he go to China and look at the steel and the forensic evidence of the most heinous crime ever committed on US soil before it was all destroyed so that it could never be investigated?

    Not to mention the evidence of an engineering impossibility

    Dr. Griffin himself has presented no hard evidence of melted iron, even though he is clearly motivated to do so.

    this sack of shit is casting aspersions upon the motivations of a hero, while protecting the fiends who commuted this singular crime

    and are therefor not just responsible for the lives lost that day

    but are also responsible for all the deaths and destroyed lives and destroyed countries and Constitutional treasons the American people have been subjected to, as a direct consequence of those men’s crimes, (and their apologists like this “$cientist” who’s trying to cover it all up and misdirect the blame to innocent people who’re trying to find out who really did this.

    No?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  199. @Rurik

    A school friend of mine who got prizes for history and became a public service lawyer (and probably voted Labor – not my party – except when feeling cranky) got dislodged from his long time secretaryship of the state civil liberties union because of his questioning or denying of the received Holocaust story and/or support for the denialist Frederick Toben (the one who got himself gaoled in Germany) and I don’t suppose it was just the many Jews in that organisation who ousted him. So you can see I am well aware of PC matters which would be of particular concern to you.

    What I see you as contending is that the PC prohibitions on the sayable – quite apart from the obvious legislated prohibitions in a few countries (not many in relation to the Holocaust contrary to what I think you are asserting fwiw) – are the product of organised Jewish pressure and manoeuvring. To complete your case with credibility I think you would have to concede that the educated and other opinion makers are quite conscious of what may be true but unsayable and to be avoided so that it is somehow the witholding of well known truths (or at least possible but unmentionable truths) from the great unwashed which does the damage that ultimately perverts American and some other countries’ policies.

    Or maybe it just works through the economics of Congress membership? The money required to stay elected through primaries and house elections is utterly corrupting apart from the odd rich candidate. Then the uncorrupted who want support for legislation have to be sensitive to the ownership of each Congressman, be it AIPAC, biofuels or the defence industry – or all of them. Am I closer to your thesis?

  200. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Carroll Price

    plz tell me Pastor Anderson of Marching to Zion fame got his divinity degree out of a Cracker Jax box, and his three followers have no access to the outside world.

    otherwise we are well & truly f*%Kd

  201. geokat62 says:
    @Carroll Price

    My in-laws are Orthodox Christians and they do egg hunts at our house. They like it too.

    They may like it, but that doesn’t mean it’s an Orthodox tradition.

    Orthodox Christians do have traditions that do indeed involve eggs, such as painting and tapping them, but not hunting for them. This is a Protestant Christian tradition:

    Lizette Larson-Miller, a professor with the Graduate Theological Union of Berkeley, traces the specific custom of the Easter egg hunt to the Protestant Christian Reformer Martin Luther, stating “We know that Martin Luther had Easter egg hunts where the men hid the eggs for the women and children, and it probably has this connection back to this idea of eggs being the tomb.”

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egg_hunt

    So either they’re being hypocrites, or you’re full of s**t. I suspect the latter.

    I agree that someone is full of s**t, but it ain’t me, CP.

  202. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    … did he go to China and look at the steel and the forensic evidence…

    No, Rurik, his analysis was based on the samples recovered from WTC7:

    [MORE]

    As a result, the samples recovered from WTC 7 do not prove any extraordinary temperatures. Having said that, the existence of the eutectic mixture was a surprise to many scientists, and remains one of the details not fully understood to this day. What it is definitely not, however, is evidence of explosives.

    Dr. Griffin claims that it is evidence of explosives, based on extremely simple reasoning:

    “The journal further suggested the significance of the discovery by pointing out the presence of sulfur in this eutectic reaction… This point is especially significant because, as Steven Jones has pointed out, sulfur is a common ingredient in explosives.”

    This reasoning is also particularly specious. There are innumerable sources of sulfur that do not involve explosives, such as diesel fuel for emergency generators, sulfuric acid found in batteries and uninterruptible power supplies, possibly gypsum wallboard, and even human bodies. On the other hand, sulfur is an ingredient in some low explosives such as black powder, but it is not part of TNT, RDX (and by inference C-4), HMX, PETN, nitroglycerin, dynamite, or any other common or suitable explosive that the author is aware of, with the possible exception of ANFO if the fuel oil just happened to include a high sulfur content. Confused by this statement, we search Dr. Griffin’s reference to Dr. Steven Jones, which leads to page 35 of his whitepaper entitled “Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Completely Collapse?” We do not find any mention of sulfur or explosives on page 35, but we believe we have the correct passage on page 20, which reads as follows:

    “Finally, sulfidation was observed in structural steel samples found from both WTC7 and one of the WTC Towers, as reported in Appendix C in the FEMA report. It is quite possible that more than one type of cutter-charge was involved on 9/11, e.g., HMX, RDX and thermate in some combination. While gypsum in the buildings is a source of sulfur, it is highly unlikely that this sulfur could find its way into the structural steel in such a way as to form a eutectic. The evidence for the use of some variant of thermite such as sulfur-containing thermate in the destruction of the WTC Towers and building 7 is sufficiently compelling to warrant serious investigation.”

    It is clear that Dr. Jones does not claim sulfur is a sign of explosives after all. Instead, he believes the sulfur signal comes from “thermate,” which is not an explosive, but merely an incendiary. In the passage above, Dr. Jones – like Dr. Griffin – appears to be leaning towards a complicated scenario involving both explosives and incendiaries, although his reasoning can be refuted quickly: His evidence for incendiaries is the sulfidized steel. However, Dr. Biederman et al. proved that the steel experienced temperatures no higher than 850 oC, and would melt, destroying the mixture, at 940 oC. Thermite and thermate burn at temperatures far higher than this, therefore they could not possibly have left this sulfidized steel as evidence. Thermate also contains barium – roughly ten times as much barium as sulfur, in the form of barium nitrate before ignition – and there is no evidence of barium. Dr. Jones is therefore simply wrong. Dr. Griffin, for his part, seems to have misunderstood Dr. Jones, confusing thermate with explosives in a bid to support his own, still completely unsupported, controlled demolition hypothesis. – p.101, On Debunking 9/11 Debunking

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @Rurik
  203. alexander says:
    @geokat62

    You know, Geo,

    Sometimes the truth of the matter reveals itself, through the conduct and actions of the state “after the fact”, and not before.

    After 9-11, there was a crystal clear mandate from the American people to bring the perpetrators responsible, to justice.

    There was no mandate to invade and destroy an entire country that never attacked us.

    We know, to a certainty today, an enormous amount of fraud was foisted upon us to goad us into invading Iraq:

    The bogus “imminent WMD threat ”
    The fallacious attribution of the “anthrax attack” to Saddam.
    The pernicious “yellow cake from Niger” lie.
    The erroneous linkage of Saddam to Al Qaeda,
    Etc, etc…

    We are also well aware that Afghanistan admitted to having Bin Laden, and would release him into US custody were we to furnish the “evidence” of his involvement in 9-11.

    Why didn’t we just furnish “the evidence”, take him into custody, try him, and convict him ?

    Instead, we invaded Afghanistan, did a “bone crushing” job in the first few months, then ( quite mysteriously) allowed Bin laden to escape by “dropping the ball” in Tora Bora,…. made an abrupt left turn,….. and invaded Iraq.

    How exactly do you explain this behavior, Geo ?

    Having a clear understanding of the massive defrauding campaign, to deceive us into invading Iraq, does not bode well, at all, when reflecting on the “integrity” of the 9-11 narratives.

    Does it ?

    Rurik is 100% within his rights,( given the penchant of that administration to be decidedly less than truthful with the American people) to allow his skepticism to reflect back on the events of 9-11, too, and question the “authoritas” underpinning that narrative.

    Where, exactly, does the fraud begin, Geo ?

    ( Why is there any fraud anyway ?)

    And if we cannot be sure, it begs the question of why ANY of the pages of the 9-11 report were “redacted” in the first place.

    Doesn’t it ?

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
  204. @geokat62

    Both Kevin Ryan’s and Jim Hoffman’s criticism were rebutted by Ryan Mackey in his revised white paper.

    Oh really? I don’t think so. I glanced through that a while back and both critiques were so devastating that I doubt that Mackey had any serious counter-rebuttal. The fact is that the Ryan Mackey stuff is such total crap that it largely rebuts itself.

    My sense is that, to make this sort of comment, you must not have read all 306 pages of his updated paper. Give it a read, it’s a good one.

    OMG, what an ass-clown you are. Still going on with this line of bullshit: “Oh, you didn’t read Herr Doktor Quack’s 306 page treatise on the flying pigs. You must read it! It’s brilliant!”

    Now, I note that you do not explicitly claim that you yourself read all 306 pages of that garbage. Obviously, one would infer that you had, but you don’t explicit say you did.

    Did you? Yes or no? (I’m holding my breath here waiting for an answer…..)

    • Replies: @geokat62
  205. @geokat62

    You Truthers provide a satisfactory answer to this question and I’ll put down my crayons and colouring book

    I have now asked you maybe a half a dozen times the following question: What, in your view is the strongest evidence available that the government story is true, i.e. that these attacks were orchestrated by a religious fanatic in Afghanistan?

    Not only have you never provided a “satisfactory answer”, you have never even attempted to answer.

    Nonetheless, you write various things simply assuming that the Bin Laden story is true, like saying that, to understand why 9/11 happened, you have to read Osama Bin Laden’s “Letter to America” or some such thing, that probably wasn’t even written by Osama Bin Laden since he was already dead anyway, but never mind. Even if he did write the “Letter to America” who cares, if there is no proof that he had anything to do with 9/11 anyway.

    So you just assume things, like that Bin Laden was behind it and if somebody asks you what the proof is, you just ALWAYS walk away.

    As for “truthers”, truthers are demanding a new investigation. That’s what the petition on the Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth is calling for, a new investigation. So they are not saying that they absolutely have all the answers. You’re completely misrepresenting the debate. Of course, at another point, you said you wanted an investigation of the Israeli involvement in 9/11, or foreknowledge, so you are in favor of some sort of investigation.

    What you don’t want, apparently, is an investigation of the buildings being blown up. You’re like somebody who says he wants an investigation into the JFK assassination but doesn’t want to investigate anybody getting shot.

    And then you keep pushing this Ryan Mackey garbage, like “Have you read all 306 pages of…”

    Rurik (at least a couple of months ago) still was arguing that you are an honest person. I don’t see how he can believe this. There is no way that an honest person would behave the way you do. You are some sort of shill. You must be.

  206. @alexander

    Why didn’t we just furnish “the evidence”, take him into custody, try him, and convict him ?

    Well, obviously, because there is no “evidence”. This Geokat shill you are talking to, he knows perfectly well that there is no evidence. I’ve asked him so many times what the evidence for the Bin Laden story is and he always refuses to answer.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  207. @Sam Shama

    To repeat my stand on the matter, it is of small importance to me what the precise number of Jews killed were [6m or 600k]; the fact is a great many souls were were sent on their way to meet the Maker.

    Sam, I’m going to address you know as if there is a sensible, reasonable (and yes, HONEST) person inside you struggling to get out. I am addressing that better you, in other words, okay?

    Look, what you are saying above, that it doesn’t matter whether 6 million or 600 thousand Jews were killed…. this makes me cringe. Obviously, any honest person of a minimal level of intelligence knows that it matters. It really does.

    Look, I currently live in a town of about 100,000 people. If, hypothetically, there was a tragedy in which a large number of people from this town died, a massacre or a plague or whatever, it would matter greatly whether 90,000 people died or 9,000 died. Even granting that for the people who die, it doesn’t matter, they’re dead, but from the point of view of understanding the event, it obviously matters greatly. Because if it was the larger number, 90,000 out of 100,000 people, means the town afterwards was a ghost town. If 9,000 people died, it would be very traumatic for that community, but life would simply continue.

    To come to some basic understanding of the tragedy, yes, you would have to know whether the death toll really was the 90,000 or more like the lower figure, because it would be crucial in terms of just getting your head around the event.

    The events in Europe in the early 1940’s are not really different from that. If there were, let’s say 8 million Jews in Nazi occupied Europe, it matters very very much, in terms of one’s basic understanding of the event, whether 6 million were killed or 600,000.

    I know you didn’t come up with this line of horseshit yourself. You’re repeating some line that you obviously didn’t think about too much. So think about it and you will realize that what I am saying to you is true.

    You should really really refrain from this. Because the people saying stuff like this, that it doesn’t matter whether 6 million died or 600,000 — such people are saying this with an intent to deceive. Obviously it matters.

    Sam, you are a guy who kind of wears his Jewishness on his sleeve and you get angry when people ascribe negative characteristics to Jews and so forth. If you wear your Jewishness on your sleeve and engage in this kind of blatantly dishonest discourse, and then complain if people say Jews are dishonest, I think this really gets to be untenable.

    Well, regardless of the Jewishness issue, you should really find it in yourself to uphold higher standards of honesty. I’m hardly a perfect person, but on these pages, I do try to maintain a high level of honesty and you might really consider moving more in that direction yourself.

    Anyway, some of the same people who say that it doesn’t matter whether it was 6 million or 600,000 because every single life is priceless blah blah will very vindictively go after anybody who does try to say it was more like the lower figure. So they’ll say it doesn’t matter but then…

    Anyway, the whole line that the number doesn’t matter, at least to anybody with any sense, reeks of dishonesty. You’re repeating nonsense that comes from very very dodgy people. You should really try to do better.

  208. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    As a result, the samples recovered from WTC 7 do not prove any extraordinary temperatures.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  209. Rurik says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    hey fellas,

    Why didn’t we just furnish “the evidence”, take him into custody, try him, and convict him ?

    Well, obviously, because there is no “evidence”.

    “The reason why 9/11 is not mentioned on Usama Bin Laden’s Most Wanted page is because the FBI has no hard evidence connecting Bin Laden to 9/11.”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/fbi-says-no-hard-evidence-connecting-bin-laden-to-9-11/2623

    I put the reason some people can’t ‘go there’ when it comes to 911 is the sheer moral terror of accepting, even in part, that your very government would do something so unspeakably monstrous. It numbs them to the marrow of their spine, and it should.

    It means our gov is run by psychopaths so evil they make axe murderers look like amateurs. They make Charles Manson look like a girl scout by comparison. And when you realize that, where do you go from there?

    What would you do when you realize the people you trust to keep you safe and protected- like your parents when you’re a child or your government- like to lock people into rooms and set them on fire? Like they did at Waco, and like they did on 911. It changes the wiring in your brain, and you are never the same person again. Imagine if your father or brother was John Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy. Imagine the moral horror of realizing and trying to deal with that.

    I suspect it’s something like that that prevents otherwise intelligent people from accepting what was done on 911, and by whom.

  210. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    Ah yes, the Molten Steel video. Here’s what Ryan Mackey has to say about the molten steel hypothesis (he devotes 6 pages, pp. 82-87, to it in a section entitled Molten Metal in the WTC Basements):

    [MORE]

    Dr. Griffin begins by claiming that Dr. John Gross, one of the NIST project leads, ignored credible reports of molten steel. Dr. Griffin cites an Internet video, but the video may be misleading – in the video, Dr. Gross’s response is cut in mid-sentence, and it is impossible to evaluate whether or not he is being fairly quoted.

    Whether or not Dr. Gross accurately represented NIST’s investigation, Dr. Griffin’s argument has two critical flaws. First, regardless of witness comments, there is no way for them to have identified molten metal as steel, and there is no corroborating evidence that steel itself had melted. Second, even if there was irrefutable evidence of molten steel, this fact would not support a controlled demolition hypothesis.

    More recently, Mr. Loizeaux stated to Mr. Ron Wieck, in another telephone conversation, that he “was in no position to see the molten metal and would not have been able to judge whether it was steel or not.” Since this is a flat contradiction of Bollyn’s claim, we should view his claim as suspect.

    Dr. Griffin now returns to the various statements in the NIST FAQ, attempting to show that NIST neglected critical evidence. Dr. Griffin’s argument is summarized as follows:

    NIST reports that there is no evidence of steel melting prior to collapse of the towers.

    Dr. Griffin argues that, since molten steel (“or iron;” he further confuses the issue here) was found in the debris pile, it had to have come from somewhere, and NIST claims it didn’t come from the fire.

    NIST states that the condition of steel found in the debris pile is not relevant to the question of what caused the collapses.

    Dr. Griffin disagrees, claiming that steel found in a molten state is evidence that the same steel was cut by explosives.

    This entire argument is wrong. As we have seen above, there is in fact no evidence, apart from a few uncorroborated and speculative statements from non-experts, that steel was ever melted, either before, during, or after the WTC collapses. Those few witness statements all reflect the debris pile, not the Towers prior to collapse, thus there is no evidence whatsoever of melted steel before the collapses. NIST is correct in this regard.

    Dr. Griffin (and each of his quoted sources) continues to confuse melted steel with melted metal, and he even brings up melted iron at one point (impossible; iron melts at a higher temperature than structural steel). The existence of melted metal, as noted previously, is not the least bit surprising – aluminum cladding, electrical wiring, aircraft components, and even some office furniture would be expected to melt over a wide area, and even Dr. Griffin admits the fire could have reached this temperature.

    Furthermore, the presence of melted metal (or even melted steel) in the debris pile does not guarantee that such metal was melted prior to the collapse. As we have seen, the pile burned fiercely for weeks on end. It is possible, even likely, for these temperatures to have been much higher than the fire temperatures prior to collapse. This is why NIST correctly states that the condition of steel in the debris pile does not necessarily reflect its condition before the collapse. Supposing there was molten steel found in the debris pile, it would not prove that there was molten steel present at any point while the Towers were still standing.

    Finally, Dr. Griffin’s assertion that molten steel suggests explosives is baffling. Explosives, particularly those used in real controlled demolitions, do not melt steel. They destroy steel through impulse, and the very brief shock only heats the steel slightly, that heating caused by internal friction rather than heat from the explosives themselves…

    Rejoining Dr. Griffin’s argument, he next continues his reasoning that NIST erred by not considering the possibility of explosives. Citing James Fetzer, he argues that the molten metal in the debris pile is “relevant” to the collapse, because the debris pile was caused by the collapse. NIST, again, has stated that since it showed the collapses could have occurred without explosives, and there is no evidence of explosives, it needed not consider explosives. On this basis, Dr. Griffin accuses NIST of circular reasoning. It is perhaps best to consider Dr. Griffin’s unedited words:

    We have here a perfectly circular argument: NIST articulated its theory. Critics responded that this theory did not explain the molten metal. NIST replied that the molten metal was irrelevant because it plays no role in NIST’s theory, which accounts for the collapses entirely in terms of impact damage and fire.

    There are several logical errors in this chain of reasoning as well. First, the NIST theory does explain the molten metal – melted aluminum and other substances, in large quantities, are predicted by the NIST model. Second, this does play a role in the NIST theory, because this verifies NIST’s claim that the fires were hot enough to weaken (but not melt) the structural steel. Third, Dr. Griffin has misinterpreted NIST’s response – once again, NIST states that, because of the mechanics of collapse and because the debris pile burned hotly for weeks, structural steel and other materials retrieved from the pile were expected to be slightly or severely more damaged than they would have been just prior to collapse.

    Dr. Fetzer’s comment that the collapse and the debris pile are “related” is naãve – while the collapse did lead to the debris pile, the debris pile cannot be reconstructed to explain the collapse. Evidence was damaged and destroyed over time, and this process is irreversible. Similarly, Dr. Griffin’s contention that the NIST theory does not explain all of the observed evidence is wrong. He has no hard evidence for molten steel, and other molten materials are predicted by NIST’s theory.

    Dr. Griffin closes this item with another quote from Dr. Jones, and another confusion between molten steel and molten metal:

    It would be interesting if underground fires could somehow produce molten steel, but then there should be historical examples of this effect, since there have been many large fires in numerous buildings. But no such examples have been found. It is not enough to argue hypothetically that fires could possibly cause all three pools of molten metal. One needs at least one previous example.

    To this, the author can only restate that there is no hard evidence of molten steel. The fires in the debris of the WTC Towers were exceptional and almost without precedent; however, until we have a sample of this allegedly melted steel, there is little point trying to prove that melted steel was possible. Since not even Dr. Jones or Dr. Griffin can point us to an actual remnant of melted steel, no matter how small, we must conclude that this was at best a highly local phenomenon. Otherwise we would expect to see a great deal of melted steel, given that over 10% of the debris was steel and that it sat burning for weeks.

  211. geokat62 says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    (I’m holding my breath here waiting for an answer…..)

    And I’m holding my breath here waiting for you to accept the RoE….

Current Commenter
says:

Leave a Reply - Comments on articles more than two weeks old will be judged much more strictly on quality and tone


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Philip Giraldi Comments via RSS
Personal Classics
A Modern Guernica Enabled by Washington
Pressuring Candidates Even Before They Are Nominated
But is it even a friend?
The gagged whistleblower goes on the record.
Today’s CIA serves contractors and bureaucrats—not the nation.
Pay no mind to the Mossad agent on the line.