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Remembering the U.S.S. Liberty
The 50 year cover-up of a mass murder of U.S. servicemen orchestrated by Israel and its friends
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There has been a lot of media coverage mostly written by Israelis or American Jews regarding Israel’s “victory” fifty years ago during the so-called Six Days War directed against its Arab neighbors but I have yet to see an account that mentions the fate of the U.S.S. Liberty. Nevertheless, the Liberty is not forgotten. This Thursday at noon at Arlington National Cemetery there will be a small gathering for the annual coming together with the survivors and friends of the most decorated ship in the history of the U.S. Navy, a victim of a particularly brutal and unprovoked attack by Israel that has been covered up for half a century by the powers that be in Washington. The moving service will include reminiscences by surviving crew members plus the ringing of a ship’s bell for each one of the thirty-four American sailors, Marines and civilians that were killed in the deliberate Israeli air and sea onslaught that sought to sink the intelligence gathering ship and kill all its crew. Present will be a number of veterans like myself and other Americans who are committed to ensuring that the story of the Liberty will not die in hopes that someday the United States government will have the courage to acknowledge what actually happened on that fateful day.

The Liberty survivors who will be present in Arlington on Thursday will be fewer than usual because the crew is having its own 50th anniversary commemoration in Norfolk, Virginia, home of the U.S. Atlantic fleet. In truth the attack on the U.S.S. Liberty by Israeli warplanes and torpedo boats on June 8, 1967, has almost faded from memory, with a younger generation completely unaware that a United States naval vessel was once deliberately targeted and nearly sunk by America’s “greatest friend and ally” Israel. The attack was followed by a cover-up that demonstrated clearly that at least one president of the United States even back nearly fifty years ago valued his relationship with the state of Israel above his loyalty to his own country.

It was in truth the worst attack ever carried out on a U.S. Naval vessel in peace time. In addition to the death toll, 171 more of the crew were wounded in the two-hour assault, which was clearly intended to destroy the intelligence gathering vessel operating in international waters collecting information on the ongoing fighting between Israel and its Arab neighbors. The Israelis, whose planes had their Star of David markings covered up so Egypt could be blamed, attacked the ship repeatedly from the air and with gunboats from the sea. When one Israeli pilot hesitated, refusing to attack what was clearly an American ship, he was instructed to proceed anyway.

The most disgusting part of the tale relates to how U.S. warplanes sent to the Liberty’s aid from an aircraft carrier in the Mediterranean were called back by Defense Secretary Robert McNamara acting under orders from President Lyndon Baines Johnson, who declared that he would rather see the ship go to the bottom of the sea than embarrass his good friend Israel. Ironically, the first ship to reach the Liberty and offer assistance was from the Soviet Union, an offer that was declined.

Johnson reportedly feared Jewish influence over Congress and in the media, which might work together to block his “Great Society” legislative initiatives, not to mention his expected reelection bid in 1968. It was an early manifestation of the power of the Jewish lobby in American politics and foreign relations. One has to hope that both LBJ and McNamara are currently burning in hell.

The incredible courage and determination of the surviving crew was the only thing that kept the Liberty from sinking. The ship’s commanding officer Captain William McGonagle was awarded a Congressional Medal of Honor for his heroic role in keeping the ship afloat, though President Lyndon Baines Johnson broke with tradition and refused to hold the medal ceremony in the White House, also declining to award it personally, delegating that task to the Secretary of the Navy in a closed to the public presentation made at the Washington Navy Yard. The additional medals given to other crew members in the aftermath of the attack made the U.S.S. Liberty the most decorated ship based on a single engagement with hostile forces in the history of the United States Navy.

The cover-up of the attack began immediately. The Liberty crew was sworn to secrecy over the incident, as were the Naval dockyard workers in Malta, and even the men of the U.S.S. Davis, which had assisted the badly damaged Liberty to port were ordered to be silent. A hastily convened and conducted court of inquiry headed by Admiral John McCain acted under orders from Washington to declare the attack a case of mistaken identity. The inquiry’s senior legal counsel Captain Ward Boston, who subsequently declared the attack to be a “deliberate effort to sink an American ship and murder its entire crew,” also described how “President Lyndon Johnson and Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara ordered him to conclude that the attack was a case of ‘mistaken identity’ despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.” The court’s findings were rewritten and sections relating to Israeli war crimes, to include the machine gunning of life rafts, were excised. Following in his father’s footsteps, Senator John McCain of Arizona has used his position on the Senate Armed Services Committee to effectively block any reconvening of a board of inquiry to reexamine the evidence. Most of the documents relating to the Liberty incident have never been released to the public in spite of the 50 years that have passed since the attack took place.

The faux court of inquiry and the medals awarded in secret were only the first steps in the cover-up, which has persisted to this day, orchestrated by politicians and a media that seem to place Israel’s interests ahead of those of the United States. Liberty survivors have been finding it difficult even to make their case in public. In April 2016 a billboard that read “Help the USS Liberty Survivors – Attacked by Israel” was taken down in New Bedford Massachusetts. The billboard had been placed by the Honor Liberty Vets Organization and, as is normal practice, was paid for through a contractual arrangement that would require the billboard company to post the image for a fixed length of time. It was one of a number of billboards placed in different states. Inevitably, Israel’s well connected friends began to complain. One Jewish businessman threatened to take his business elsewhere, so the advertising company obligingly removed the billboard two weeks early.

After fifty years, the dwindling number of survivors of the Liberty are not looking for punishment or revenge. When asked, they will tell you that they only ask for accountability, that an impartial inquiry into the attack be convened and that the true story of what took place finally be revealed to the public.

That Congress is deaf to the pleas of the Liberty crew should surprise no one as the nation’s legislative body has been for years, as Pat Buchanan once put it, “Israeli occupied territory.” The Lobby’s ability to force Congress and even the presidency to submit to its will has been spelled out in some detail by critics, first by Paul Findley in They Dare to Speak Out, later by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in The Israel Lobby, in Alison Weir’s Against Our Better Judgment, and most recently in Kirk Beattie’s excellent Congress and the Shaping of the Middle East.

Government willingness at all levels to protect Israel even when it is killing Americans is remarkable, but it is symptom of the deep corruption that has generated a tendency to go to bat for Israel reflexively, even when it is damaging to U.S. interests and to the rights that American citizens are supposed to enjoy. I note particularly legislation currently working its way through Congress and numerous statehouses make it illegal for any federal or state funding to go to any entity that supports the Boycott, Divest and Sanction movement, better known as BDS. BDS is a way to put pressure on the Israeli government over its human rights abuses that is both non-violent and potentially effective. Israel’s supporters have labeled BDS as anti-Semitic and have had some success in making any criticism of Israel labeled a “hate crime.”

So the treatment of the U.S.S. Liberty should surprise no one in a country whose governing class has been for decades doing the bidding of the powerful lobby of a tiny client state that has been nothing but trouble and expense for the United States of America. Will it ever end? As the Israel Lobby currently controls the relevant parts of the federal government and much of the media, change is not likely to happen overnight, but there are some positive signs. The BDS movement is growing in spite of the pressure it is experiencing and will not go away. And opinion polls suggest that the American people are finally waking up to realize that they are sick and tired of the entire farce playing out in the Middle East under Israeli direction. Israel, which aggressively spies on us, kills our citizens and takes billions of dollars of our tax money which could be better spent here, is no friend of the United States and never has been. Just ask anyone who served on the U.S.S. Liberty.

 
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  1. Kyle McKenna [AKA "Mika-Non"] says:

    Just showing you Yanks who’s boss, that’s all.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    , @Pandos
  2. mcohen says:

    phil .why waste your time.the USS liberty was intercepted by soviet forces spying on communications between Russia and Egypt.it was attacked by aircraft piloted by Russian pilots,
    there is no way the USA would directly attack Russian forces in retaliation.it is all about proxy armies doing there bidding.

  3. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @mcohen

    Now that’s a new conspiracy theory.

    A few years ago, the Israeli pilot who led the attack on the USS Liberty was interviewed by the Jerusalem post. He said the sailers were lucky he didn’t have bombs on board, otherwise he would have sunk it.

    That always seemed an odd aspect of the story to me. If it were a deliberate attack, why leave survivors? Why not sink it? This wasn’t the Yamamoto, for heaven’s sake. It probably wouldn’t have taken more than one direct it from a 2000 pound bomb to sink it.

  4. Here’s the official USS Liberty survivors website, authored by the Navy servicemen that survived the Israeli attack:

    http://www.gtr5.com/

    On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

    The Attack

    After surveilling USS Liberty for more than nine hours with almost hourly aircraft overflights and radar tracking, the air and naval forces of Israel attacked our ship in international waters without warning. USS Liberty was identified as a US naval ship by Israeli reconnaissance aircraft nine hours before the attack and continuously tracked by Israeli radar and aircraft thereafter. Sailing in international waters at less than five knots, with no offensive armament, our ship was not a military threat to anyone.

    The Israeli forces attacked without warning and without attempting to contact us. Thirty four Americans were killed in the attack and another 174 were wounded. The ship, a $40-million dollar state-of-the-art signals intelligence platform, was later declared unsalvageable and sold for scrap.

    The Cover Up

    Despite a near-universal consensus that the Israeli attack was made with full knowledge that USS Liberty was a US Navy ship, the Johnson administration began an immediate cover-up of this fact. Though administration officers continued individually to characterize the attack as deliberate, the Johnson administration never sought the prosecution of the guilty parties or otherwise attempted to seek justice for the victims. They concealed and altered evidence in their effort to downplay the attack. Though they never formally accepted the Israeli explanation that it was an accident, they never pressed for a full investigation either. They simply allowed those responsible literally to get away with murder.

    In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law. In accordance with international law and treaties, the United States is obligated to investigate the allegations. So far, the United States has declined even to acknowledge that the report has been filed. The full text of the report can be found at http://www.gtr5.com/evidence/warcrimes.pdf

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  5. RobinG says:

    Yes, the Israelis intentionally attacked the USS Liberty. Whose idea was it?

    “That should tell you WE, the USA were expecting an attack and most likely Lyndon Johnson was in on the nefarious plot. So it looks like LBJ told the Israelis go ahead and sink the USS Liberty (miraculously it did not sink) and that will give us a pretext to enter the Six Day War on Israel’s side, launch an invasion of Egypt and depose Nassar who the USA did not like and who was too cozy with the USSR. In other words, LBJ was cooking up a Gulf of Tonkin type incident to justify a criminal Middle East war, based on a US sponsored false flag attack.”

    https://www.amazon.com/Operation-Cyanide-Bombing-Liberty-Nearly/dp/1904132197

    Operation Cyanide: How the Bombing of the USS Liberty Nearly Caused World War Three

  6. The further I learn about this grotesque, criminal incident the further I strongly suspect two things:
    1. It was a failed false flag; the purpose of which: to incriminate Egypt. The entire plot relied on the total destruction of the Liberty and it’s crew: no ship, no crew, no evidence. (The failed false flag hypothesis at least makes some sense of Israeli motives. Against this view: the Israelis failed, which may be interpreted as evidence that complete destruction was NOT the goal. Also, it might be thought how could the Israelis be SO stupid as to think, given the length of time from observation to concluded attack, that they could “get away with it”? But again, no ship, no crew, no evidence. The rest is denial and bullshit.)
    2. Which leads to the 2nd point ( harder to demonstrate ) that the highest level of the US Admin KNEW about this or “a” pending false flag attack by the Israelis. The speed – confidence – with which Macnamara calls off the jets, the well oiled cover up later, all, at least, suggest US foreknowledge. US complicity would also help explain why the Israelis weren’t that worried about radio traffic ID’ing their fighters.
    On even the bare facts the Liberty incident represented that even 50 years ago, the US government was in (treasonous ) thrall to a foreign power.

  7. JA139 says:

    a victim of a particularly brutal and unprovoked attack by Israel that has been covered up for half a century by the powers that be in Washington.

    The entire 6-day war was a particularly brutal and unprovoked attack by Israel against Egypt and other Arab states. Just as the Israeli government lied about the attack on the Liberty, they lied about being attacked by Egypt. When are the US populatation going to say enough and force the US government to stop supporting this mendacious, duplicious and brutal apartheid artificial Zionist colony in the Middle East?

  8. Katyn was in 1940, I suppose.
    Already at Nuremberg the USA and GB knew quite well that it was mass murder perpetrated by Stalin.
    Somewhere in the nineties Putin confirmed this.
    Pearl Harbour still has not been confirmed by the USA as deliberate provocation, Sept 11 fairy tales still are believed, near Amsterdam Airport, Schiphol, a wood has been planted with a tree for each of the MH17 victims.
    The responsibility for MH17 has not been ascertained to this day.
    Yet it seems that Ukraine is to blame, commercial flights were used to shield bombers against BUKs.
    MH370 will never be solved, I expect, yet the suspicion is against the USA, in the plane were two groups of Chinese experts on making planes invisible for radar.
    In Israel is a six million tree wood.
    Myths are very important in politics.
    The relatively few deaths of the Liberty are of no importance, except to the survivors.

    • Replies: @Agent76
  9. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Why American Jews Embraced Israel After the June 1967 War

  10. chris says:
    @mcohen

    What an ass.

    If this is true, why did the Israelis belatedly pay some reparations to the crew? When McNamara ordered a stop to the rescue effort and said he didn’t want to shame our ally, was he talking about the Soviet Union? Why, after the fall of the Soviet Union, were the US archives not unsealed in order to exonerate our greatest ally?

    BTW, does anyone else on your ward believe your theory?

    • LOL: dearieme
  11. DaveE says:

    The only thing more depressing than the Liberty attack is the complete lack of shame by the lying, degenerate hasbara crowd.

    You can set your watch to it, so reliable is its frequency. It just never ends, does it?

    • Replies: @HBM
  12. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    I get it. It was bad.

    But this Giraldi guy might once in a while also turn his eye to other players in the greater game.

    Like Russia, probably having shot down the Polish Leadership in Smolensk.

    Like the 1999 Apartment Bombings having been a Russian False Flag.

    • Replies: @Randal
    , @Bill
    , @Art
  13. Not to diminish the lives lost in the Liberty attack, but the same President and administration sacrificed the USS Pueblo six months later. What was that about? Did Johnson have it in for military arm of the intel community?

    • Replies: @Pueblo
  14. Ben_C says:

    Phil,

    You’re missing the big picture here… What about Israel’s “remarkable restraint” we’ve been told so much about?

    http://www.nationalreview.com/article/381726/tragedy-israel-rand-paul

  15. I firmly believe that among the elements central to this criminally psychotic operation was the Zionists’ “testing” of America. Success would mean that thenceforth the Zioentity would know that it had the U.S. in its pocket and under its control (control—>domination…) and essentially would have carte blanche to do anything it wanted to further its enterprise. Voila….

    Great commentary by Phil Giraldi! Justice for the fallen and the survivors of the Liberty! Oh — and Justice for Palestine!

    • Replies: @gcochran
  16. @Kyle McKenna

    Just showing you Yanks who’s boss, that’s all.

    Norman Finkelstein, de-mythologizing the 1967 war; in conversation with Phil Weiss and James North

    http://www.unz.com/nfinkelstein/to-live-or-to-perish/

    : My own hypothesis is, this is Israel’s big moment, the climactic of the Jewish people, a collective paroxysm-cum-orgasm. All the armed services want to get a piece of the action. The air force, the army, the navy.

    The navy hadn’t yet seen real combat. As the war was winding down, they were probably anxious to be part of this glorious chapter. To play their part in the Jewish people’s revenge on the goyim.

    Remember, the Israelis don’t just hate Arabs. They’re in an eternal war with all the goyim. All the goyim wanted the Jews dead. Just read Daniel Goldhagen if you have any doubts. The Americans are goyim. They refused entry to Jews fleeing the Holocaust; they didn’t bomb the railway tracks to Auschwitz; they, too, wanted all the Jews dead. Now they’re butting into our war, dispatching a spy ship into our waters, trying to restrain us in our moment of glory. Fuck the Americans! Fuck the goyim! Long live the Jews!

    Besides the Israeli air assault on the USS Liberty, the Israeli navy torpedoed the vessel. It got to share in the mock heroics and avenge the millennial suffering of the Jews. Everyone got their 15 minutes of drawing blood, in memoriam of the Jewish martyrs.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  17. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    After this savage and brutal attack by Israel against an American ship and nothing happened to Israel, they realized that they could now openly attack the USA, while having their MSM blame Muslims, so that Israel could bend and twist our foreign policy to do their bidding.

    Which led straight to the 9/11 False Flag, masterminded by Israel, with help from traitors in the WH, the Pentagon, CIA, FBI and NSA. With generous help from the Lying MSM.

    http://www.911history.de/aaannxyz_ch11_en.html

    America isn’t a free nation, we are living under the boot heel of Israeli tyranny.

    • Agree: Seamus Padraig
  18. Greg Bacon says: • Website
    @mcohen

    Is that what you were taught in your Yeshiva or you just peddling lies and propaganda? Your side has won, Israel is in full control of he USA, but idiotic comments like yours is helpful, for it will help to wake up Americans as to who is really in charge of the USA.

    • Agree: Z-man
  19. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @JA139

    Today, 6/5 the Senate passed a unanimous resolution to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem immediately. Trunp is still delaying. But for how long?

  20. mcohen says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    there is no shortage of hocus pocus amongst the great powers of the day.british officers sending Australian troops to there death at Gallipoli is another example

    snickity snick
    daisy has a dick
    standing on the corner
    turning a trick

    stand in line take your pick
    pearls for swine
    some are skinny some are thick
    bought by the dime

    what you see you never get
    where fools tread
    a slow horse dead bet
    on a path easily misled

    take out the trash
    gather wood for fire
    burn the lot to ash
    no truth from a liar.

    • Replies: @dearieme
  21. geokat62 says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    You beat me to the punch. I just finished reading the same MW article and was about to post it here. I couldn’t believe my eyes as I was reading the transcript of their casual conversation. Needless to say, my jaw dropped when I came to this part of their conversation.

    Let’s see how the hasbara tag team try to rationalize this explanation.

    • Replies: @mcohen
    , @anon
  22. Once again, Mr. Giraldi demonstrates his profound patriotism, and his stunning courage to speak the truth.

  23. LondonBob says:

    LBJ’s links to Israel were very deep and begin much earlier. That connection also explains how he became President.

    http://5tjt.com/our-first-jewish-president-lyndon-johnson-an-update/

    Interestingly Devin Nunes is tied in with the USS Liberty.

    In the award ceremony at the Visalia (California) office of Rep. Devin Nunes, the Republican congressman pinned the Silver Star next to the Purple Heart that Halbardier found in his home mailbox three years ago. Nunes said, “The government has kept this quiet I think for too long, and I felt as my constituent he [Halbardier] needed to get recognized for the services he made to his country.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2014/08/17/a-uss-libertys-heros-passing/

  24. n230099 says:

    Someone sure has a bug-up-their-butt about this. “War” is always a mess. Deal with it…we used to throw VC out the huey doors till the last one gave up what we wanted to hear. Now we buy our shirts and shoes from there. The time spent re-living the “Liberty” is time you will “never get back”.

  25. Che Guava says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    The ship you are thinking of is the Yamato.

    Yamamoto was the admiral who reluctantly but to the best of his ability led the attack on Pearl Harbour (very effective and brilliant, except for the mysteriously missing carriers) and various other actions until his later assassination by US presidential order.

    A military genius, and he knew what the absence of carriers meant.

    Using torpedo boats is equivalent to such a bomb as your pilot described, but the Liberty did not sink before the situation changed enough to make the Israelis back off.

    Your pilot sounds like a very poisonous person.

    • Replies: @Thirdeye
  26. dearieme says:
    @mcohen

    “british officers sending Australian troops to there death at Gallipoli is another example”

    Except of course there were more British deaths at Gallipoli than Australian. Indeed, there were more French deaths at Gallipoli than Australian.

    Your whataboutery isn’t very good.

  27. Che Guava says:
    @Lot

    Well, you certainly display obsession in gathering that list.

    • Replies: @Lot
  28. Hmmm, lots of busy little yids this morning!!! Hint: the party won’t last.

  29. Agent76 says:

    Jun 8, 2016 USS Liberty — the Real Story — as told by the survivors

  30. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    I haven’t read those links but I am addressing my reply to you because I suggested on an earlier thread that you ought to concede that Israel made a delibrrate attack on the Liberty but I am not 100 per cent convinced that it was an Israeli government decision at the highest level. That is because, for all the enthusiasm shown on UR there is very little reliable evidence about what happened and it occurs to me to try out a few thoughts.

    1. None of the motives suggested are so compelling that it has to be accepted. It follows that all of the suggested motives may be wrong and we therefore have to rely on objective facts and the inability to rule out certain motives;
    2. Some of the theories depend on Liberty being destroyed without evidence left behind or broadcast of how it happened. That’s problematic if one concedes how well the IDF’s professionals would understand how things go wrong in wars. The problem of credibility grows if you posit that a peripheral action like destroying the Liberty has to be 100 per cent perfect in destroying the ship and killing every las3t crew member before he can communicate with any outsider;
    3. Wouldn’t someone say “it’s a bit risky boss: some of our pilots are proud of being Yanks as well as Yids and then there are all those with Amrrican friends. Do you think they’)l all follow through and then do we trust them never to blab?”
    4. Then there is the simple fact that it would have been easy to sink Liberty on the first sighting with a couple of torpedoes and a couple of heavy bombs (and remember that we aren’t supposing that any serious reconnaissance is needed though one can do the never-falsified’s trick of imagining that they had to check that jamming was working or….). They didn’t so evidently there was some sort of stuff up involved.
    5. Finally, for the moment, there is no reason to believe that seeing the American flag would make the Israelis certain it was a US ship. The number of flights reported early on are consistent with time being taken to clear up uncertainty. What if the really big stuff up qas the failure of communications between the Israeli navy and the UD navy to confirm that it was a US ship? There are enough truly horrifying examples of friendly fire catsstrophes to make that seem plausible who doesn’t gape in awe at the competence of military people in action or cerebration.

    Of course the attacks were deliberate on the part of one pr more Israelis. And that is consistent with the later attempts to wrap it all up with a modest compensation payment.

    As for the Johnson Administration and Congress’s reluctance to make a big deal of it at the time, several factors have been mentioned which could have made silence to be preferable to full exposure of perhaps the US navy and Israel, especially if it wasn’t possible or wasn’t prudent to expose the deliberation of high Israeli givernment ministers in planning the attack. I would find it easy to believe that, during the Vietnam War embarrassing the armed forces was regarded as best avoided.

    But yes PG and all. It is surely time to declassify everything.

    • Replies: @American Shniper
    , @Lot
  31. mcohen says:
    @geokat62

    geokat
    should know that normal finkelstein has been a mossad operative for some time.a branch similar to 8100.you been had my cad.
    your hatred of Israel has blinded you to the fact that it was american military hardware that won the day.the 6 day war victory was just a spinoff.in a competing arms race against the soviets american military hardware proved superior.the Israeli s paid the price in blood for this marketing campaign. the rewards were more land.
    you and your fellow fake Palestinian supporters should suck it up the back passage and trump(et) it out your ears for that daily mind cleansing ritual

    • Replies: @Jon Halpenny
    , @geokat62
  32. A small detail in the USS Liberty tragedy. The ship was solid. If I am not mistaken the entire production run were called victory ships and they were cranked out at the rate of 1 a day after a certain point during WW2.

    If the ship wasn’t built by what used to be known as ‘ good old yankee knowledge’ plus quality materials and workmanship the conversation about today’s article might have been ” The Day that Egypt Sunk the USS Liberty”.

    Side note, I have a 1937 Studebaker on my property that was dropped off by a friend for “two weeks” 30 years ago. I had been sitting outside since 1958.

    All the frame, fenders and general structure are solid as a rock. The doors (with external hinges) open and shut with one finger. God the yanks built some good shit in the day.

    These days if you googled “1937 Studebaker” don’t be surprised if Alibaba.com comes up.

    Cheers-

    PS: mcohen, I think that your brains were in your foreskin.

  33. @mcohen

    Can you imagine the atrocities Israel had our service men and women committing against black and brown people let alone our white brothers and sisters if they can force our government to turn it’s back on WHITE service MEN, not white women, WHITE service men?

    The men who made this country what it is was murdered by Israeli’s with no consequences nor acknowledgement for over 50 years….WOW! And you want to make blacks your enemy?

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  34. @Anon

    Think about it. Who had anything to gain with the USS Liberty attack?

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Anon
  35. The Liberty incident was not covered up. It was investigated and the problem was that 6th Fleet HQ had informed the Israelis we did not have any ships in the region. Flying a false flag is not illegal under international law, as long as the ship is not engaged in hostilities.

    Israel admitted their mistake and paid reparations. Giraldi is simply promulgating a conspiracy theory.

  36. Randal says:
    @Anonymous

    Jesus Fucking Christ.

    I get it. It was bad.

    But this Giraldi guy might once in a while also turn his eye to other players in the greater game.

    Maybe he would do so more often, if the truth were actually allowed to be told about this incident, and if it could be properly recorded and commemorated, with appropriate apologies and accountability for the perpetrators rather than denials.

    Instead it has been suppressed, and those talking about it falsely accused of being anti-Semites and censored. I have witnessed this in action for decades, now.

    Face up properly to the truth, then you can complain about those who continue to “obsess” about the incident.

  37. nsa says:

    The vile Izzies and the even more vile Saud goat herders continue to bitch slap, and occasionally pimp stick, their fat stupid American whore. Venture a guess either could knock down skyscrapers in an American metropolis in broad daylight on national TV and get away with it…….

    • Replies: @L.K
  38. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @American Shniper

    You tell me. Who indeed could possibly have expected to benefit from such a botched operation? A nd what is the relevance of that rubbishy bit of propaganda that you linked?

  39. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Quartermaster

    If you are right about the 6th Fleet misinforming the Israelis that is the most explanatory fact in all UR’s waste of worda on the subject.

  40. Jake says:

    “The attack was followed by a cover-up that demonstrated clearly that at least one president of the United States even back nearly fifty years ago valued his relationship with the state of Israel above his loyalty to his own country.”

    Such things are a given as long as WASP culture has Jews around. The WASP Elites will always, ALWAYS, sacrifice the majority of white Christians they rule in order to help Jews.

    The problem for the Western World is that WASPs conquered the world, spreading their Judaizing heresies and pro-Semitic cultural values world wide. The temptation for every leader, hereditary or appointed or elected, was to act in accordance with WASP values, WASP decisions, in the hope it would make him and his country rich.

    If the English came to rule the world after going all pro-Semitic, maybe we can too!

    Whining about the US as lap Yorkie to Israel is a waste of time unless you also are knowledgeably proChristendom rather than pro-WASP. WASP culture will always produce Elites who will sell many, or most, of us out to remain BFF with Jews. WASP culture will also produce Elites that will romanticize Arabs and Islam, greatly preferring them the vast majority of white Christians.

    You cannot adequately deal with the many problems inherent in dealings with any Semites if you have not replaced WASP culture.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  41. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    PG, I would be interested in your comment on tbe points in #31 but, apart from that, since you aren’t one of the conspiracy mongers about Macnamara and LBJ, I wonder how you assess suggestions of active malevolent evil on their part against what is to be inferred about their characters and values from a very full public record. The Johnson of the Great Society, while a cunning and ruthless political operator, doesn’t strike me as a man who would lightly sacrifice American sailors, and Macnamara, even in the 1960s, doesn’t seem to have been at all likeĺy to have approved sending nuclear armed planes anywhere that could have involved nuking Cairo.

  42. The cynic in me wonders if the IDF made an analysis of whether there were any of the Chosen People on the Liberty before opening fire. That sounds like something they very well might have done, as they would probably be able to instantly get the crew manifest from one of their Pollard-like moles in the Navy.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @David In TN
  43. Mr. Anon says:
    @Lot

    This site is dedicated to covering things that others – the MSM in particular – do not. So why is it strange for Mr. Giraldi to bring some attention to the Liberty incident, given that it receives little attention elsewhere.

    By the way, why has there never even been a movie made about the U.S.S. Liberty? Movies have been made about other cold-war-era incidents at sea: The U.S.S. Pueblo incident and the defection of Simas Kudirka, for instance. So why has there never even been a made-for-TV movie about the U.S.S. Liberty? Even if it was just a mistake, it was a noteworthy one, was it not?

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @anon
    , @cucksworth
  44. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @American Shniper

    Didn’t you notice the rubbish in that video? One item has just come back to mind. That was the ridiculous charge that the Liberty had been let down because it waschours before help arrived. Obviously the sort of aircraft on the carrier, nuclear armed or not, were no use for rescue, so the question becomes how long it takes for naval ships to cover X hundred miles. Obvious question but you seem content to overlook it.

  45. Thirdeye says:
    @Che Guava

    Not that effective or brilliant. The fixation on battleship row was sophomoric. According to Admiral Nimitz, taking out the shore support facilities would have had a much greater impact on the US ability to wage war in the Pacific, forcing the US fleet to base its operations out of San Diego. That would have made it virtually impossible to project US power into the western Pacific during the crucial time in which the battles of the Coral Sea, Midway, and Guadalcanal took place.
    The Japanese also had an unrealized opportunity to seize Oahu because the land forces defending it were weak. As it was, most of the damaged ships were salvaged after sitting in the mud and they were facing obsolescence as first line assets with the battleship and carrier building program then underway.

  46. Z-man says:
    @JA139

    Not easy when the entire MSM including Fox is controlled by ‘them’.

  47. Eagle Eye says:
    @Joe Franklin

    In an ongoing effort to reveal the truth about the attack, the USS Liberty Veterans Association has filed with the Secretary of the Army in the manner prescribed by law a detailed, fully documented Report of War Crimes describing the circumstances of the attack on our ship and evidence that it was a crime under international law.

    With all due respect to the heroic sailors and civilian staff of the USS Liberty – they were sacrificed by the U.S. military to justify a war against Egypt. LBJ wanted war FOR HIS OWN PURPOSES, but apparently later pulled back. So much for the idea of LBJ being an Israeli puppet.

    Let’s look at a timeline:

    October 1956 – March 1957 Great Britain, France and Israel join to retake control of the Suez Canal. Eisenhower administration takes vigorous steps to force all three to retreat from Egypt.

    November 24, 1963 – Former (?) CIA agent Lee Harvey Oswald is murdered in LBJ’s home state of Texas. Oswald had earlier served as radio operator keeping in touch with Gary Powers during Powers’ overflights of the Soviet Union. Powers himself later confirmed this in a book. Powers later died when his helicopter crashed.

    Two days earlier, JFK had also been murdered in Texas, clearing the way for LBJ to become president.

    August 1964 – LBJ stages the “Gulf of Tonkin” incident to justify all-out U.S. involvement in the Vietnam War.

    June 1967 – LBJ and McNamara are kept informed in real time as the U.S. intelligence vessel USS Liberty is attacked and sunk by a combined air/sea attack. U.S. aircraft are scrambled but are recalled on personal orders from McNamara, almost certainly at LBJ’s instructions.

    The U.S. military command was throughout following the USS Liberty incident in real time through radar, radio, visual surveillance and intelligence sources in Israel and Egypt.

    January 1968 – Still not satisfied in his blood lust, LBJ stages yet another incident sacrificing a U.S. intelligence vessel, the USS Pueblo. This time, the aim is to provoke yet another confrontation with North Korea in the middle of the Vietnam war.

    CONCLUSION: Johnson wanted war, the more the better. War presents great opportunities for profiteering, and just as importantly, allows an administration to push through policies that would never be tolerated in peacetime.

    Fellow Democrats Woodrow Wilson (WW I), FDR (WW II) and Harry Truman (Korea) had shown how it’s done.

    • Replies: @Jus' Sayin'...
    , @chris
  48. Z-man says:
    @n230099

    No, the Liberty affair is one of the few ‘unadulterated’ examples that clearly shows that the Zionists are not our friends! So it must be kept ‘alive’!

  49. Attention: All UNZ Readers and Commenters

    SUBJECT: The Six-Day War and the attempted sinking of the USS Liberty by Israeli Defence Forces

    “What did the President Know, and When Did he Know It?”

    Feature Article: Of Treachery, Treason, Terror, Truth, and Liberty Forsaken (An American Tale) Part One (Part Two in 2 Days)

    http://poxamerikana.com/2017/05/08/of-treachery-treason-terror-truth-and-liberty-forsaken-an-american-tale-part-1/

    For those who’ve not seen my latest article above — the first instalment of a two parter, with the second part due June 8 — I trust you can all find time to read* and if you like what you read, then repost on your respective Facebook TLs, and otherwise circulate, republish, and/or Tweet as you see fit.

    Taking my cue from Phil Nelson’s new book, Remember the Liberty: Almost Sunk by Treason on the High Seas but incorporating numerous other sources, my comprehensive analysis and commentary on the Liberty tragedy and the Six-Day War in which it took place is I believe one of the most important topics I’ve attempted to cover. The real backstory behind both of these events is one that has rarely if ever been explored — much less exposed — in such depth. As a heads up, there is one especially shocking revelation (to be revealed in Part 2), that will test most folks ability to cope with cognitive dissonance. It changes the narrative completely.

  50. @Quartermaster

    yes yes indeed, it was all a tragic mistake.

    we know this because once the mistake was recognized (and the Israeli pilots had changed out of their orgasm-soaked panties), Israel rushed to aid the survivors of the Liberty. Riiiight.

    Among the dozen-and-a-half stupid and mendacious things Finkelstein says in the second part of the interview with the painfully p-a-t-i-e-n-t Aaron Mate (make that, Mat – ay, kinda like Benjamin Ni-tay / Netanyahu/Milikovsky) is that “Israel became an asset to USA.” http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/remembering-the-u-s-s-liberty-2/#comment-1896678

    He got it ass backward: LBJ was an asset of the Israelis

    (see Jeff Gates’s explication of how the “transgenerational criminal syndicate” aka zionists use assets https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlbN2GEYW9w&t=48s @5 min:
    “An Asset is Someone who has been profiled in sufficient depth, that if you put them in a time, place and circumstance you know within an acceptable range of probabilities that they will perform consistent with their personality profile.”

    What’s ‘er name Krim was in the White House to ensure that LBJ stayed on script; one imagines she had in her overnight bag photos of Jackie’s bloody pink suit, in the event LBJ was tempted to stray.

    Regarding Maté combined with the gush- rush of three aging Jewish scribblers to “set the record straight” — I’m not buying. English Outsider, A commenter on Pat Lang’s blog, analyzed a New York Times article that purported to “fairly” report on the situation in Aleppo. English Outsider, who appears to be a PR professional, argued that the NYTimes piece was a “narrative adjustment exercise”

    “That’s a polite way of saying that the press start out by giving us one story but later, when it becomes apparent that the story they were selling is nonsense, they have to try to move to the new story without us noticing the change. . . . you don’t have to be an expert to see that that NYT piece cited isn’t honest journalism.”

    And you don’t have to be an aromachologist to detect the bullshit in Finkelstein’s tall tales in the second Maté interview.

    As for Maté, he deserves an Emmy for his semi-penitent demeanor in the Finkelstein interviews. He’s had plenty of practice, having done reporting for Democracy Now and for The Intercept. MoonofAlabama posted this important take-down of the Intercept — Do Not Trust The Intercept or How To Burn A Source.

    Nor is mcohen’s claim that Finkelstein is Mossad (#32) persuasive: In Der Judenstaat, Theodor Herzl complained/warned:

    “We continue to produce an abundance of mediocre intellects who find no outlet, and this endangers our social position as much as does our increasing wealth. Educated Jews without means are now rapidly becoming Socialists. Hence we are certain to suffer very severely in the struggle between classes, because we stand in the most exposed position in the camps of both Socialists and capitalists. “

    This describes NF to a T, and also serves to explain the proliferation of think-tanks, set up to provide a paycheck for that legion of over-credentialed under-aware faux-intellects seeking relevance — and a pension.

    • Replies: @L.K
  51. Agent76 says:
    @jilles dykstra

    You must be a book reader and internet researcher. Good post Jilles Dykstra.

    Sep 5, 2016 9/11 Suspects: Rudy Giuliani

    Mayor Giuliani oversaw the illegal destruction of the 9/11 crime scene and is criminally liable for the deaths of hundreds of emergency workers for not passing on prior warnings about the collapses of the Twin Towers. It is no wonder, then, that the Fire Department of New York so passionately detest Giuliani for his actions in disgracing their fallen brothers and covering up the 9/11 crime.

    September 07, 2016 September 11, 2001: The 15th Anniversary of the Crime and Cover-up of the Century “What Really Happened”?

    The arrow points to a “squib” of exploding gas which is commonly seen with controlled demolitions. Some of the “splinters” seen (the only solid objects that did not pulverize into dust) are actually chunks of steel beams that were being exploded upward and laterally. The nicely-sectioned steel beams and girders were soon ordered by New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani to be trucked away and shipped to China – an order that constitutes disturbing a crime scene – which is a federal crime.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/september-11-2001-the-15th-anniversary-of-the-crime-and-cover-up-of-the-century/5544414

  52. @Quartermaster

    As if conspiracies do not exist !
    Few of them are well documented, but the 1956 GB, France Israel one against Egypt was.
    Ben Gurion wanted the conspiracy in writing, the French document was never destroyed.
    Helms, former CIA director, in a documentary on the Liberty, BBCW, confirmed the McNamara Israel conspiracy.

  53. HBM says:
    @DaveE

    One wonders how they might act if they were to achieve their long-term goals and there were no more goyim left to lie to or ones worth exploiting; none remaining to react against and thereby and fuel their behavior. What behaviors would they have left?

    Maybe they’d just switch-off like killer robots who’ve completed their mission.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  54. Rurik says:
    @Jake

    The WASP Elites will always, ALWAYS, sacrifice the majority of white Christians they rule in order to help Jews.

    IDK Jake

    it seems to me that the founders of this nation were wholly WASPs, yet had little to do with Jews per se. Benjamin Franklin, a WASP’s WASP, purportedly had this to say:

    “There is a great danger for the United State of America. This great danger is the Jew. Gentlemen, in every land the Jews have settled, they have depressed the moral level and lowered the degree of commercial honesty. They have remained apart and unassimilated; oppressed, they attempt to strangle the nation financially, as in the case of Portugal and Spain.

    For more than seventeen hundred years they have lamented their sorrowful fate — namely, that they have been driven out of their mother land; but, gentlemen, if the civilized world today should give them back Palestine and their property, they would immediately find pressing reason for not returning there. Why? Because they are vampires and vampires cannot live on other vampires –they cannot live among themselves. They must live among Christians and others who do not belong to their race.

    If they are not expelled from the United States by the Constitution within less than one hundred years, they will stream into this country in such numbers that they will rule and destroy us and change our form of Government for which we Americans shed our blood and sacrificed our life, property and personal freedom. If the Jews are not excluded within two hundred years, our children will be working in the field to feed Jews while they remain in the counting houses, gleefully rubbing their hands.

    I warn you, gentlemen, if you do not exclude the Jews forever, your children and your children’s children will curse you in their graves. Their ideas are not those of Americans, even when they lived among us for ten generations. The leopard cannot change his spots. The Jews are a danger to this land, and if they are allowed to enter, they will imperil our institutions. They should be excluded by the Constitution.”

    if you ‘Bing’ “benjamin franklin on Jews”

    every single page will start with the same Wiki page ‘debunking’ the speech

    every single page

    what other issue does Bing consider so important that they will start every page with the same article?

    anyways, it seems to me that the early days of this republic had little to do with Jews, other than as slave ship owners and money lenders. I remember how well the local WASPs treated Leo Frank, and it wasn’t with kid gloves.

    I suspect that the fealty to all things Jewish began with the charter of the Federal Reserve Bank, fully owed by international Jewish bankster$, and that was when all nations either bowed to all things Jewish, or were eventually forced to by relentless wars until they did. Germany being a prime example.

    I grew up in a WASP household of sorts, and there was no anti-Semitism for sure, but then there wasn’t any Judeophilia either. (no rapture bunnies in my WASPy childhood home, just Easter bunnies ; )

    [curious, I 'Binged' the 'protocols of zion'. The first page starts with a Wiki page 'debunking' the Protocols- as you'd expect. But by the second page it's gone. Not so the Franklin speech. Every Bing page on the Franklin speech starts with the Wiki page 'debunking' it]

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Eagle Eye
  55. Rurik says:
    @Rurik

    if you ‘Bing’ “benjamin franklin on Jews”

    every single page will start with the same Wiki page ‘debunking’ the speech

    if you’re going to try this, you have to remove the quotation marks for it to work ;)

  56. Eagle Eye says:
    @Rurik

    Benjamin Franklin, a WASP’s WASP, purportedly had this to say:

    The entire quoted passage is bunk as will be obvious to anyone who has ACTUALLY read political documents from the 18th and 19th century. Real Americans are familiar, for instance, with the Federalist Letters, and with some private correspondence both during the 18th century Revolutionary War and the 19th century Civil War.

    In the quoted passage, the reference to “Palestine” is anachronistic – the area was a non-descript Ottoman territory during Franklin’s life, part of the Beirut Villayet.

    Equally, the word “vampire” is a blatant anachronism. The whole vampire craze only started in the 19th century.

    The whole focus on Jews is also bizarre – there were very few Jews in the American colonies during Franklin’s lifetime.

    Lastly, the diction of the quoted passage is fake 19th century written in the 20th century. Ben Franklin died in 1790.

    Styles change. Nobody would mistake a Hank Williams song for a 1980s hit. The quoted passage sounds completely “off” in the same way, only more so.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @JoaoAlfaiate
  57. @mcohen

    As far as I know, the Israelis used mostly French equipment in the 1967 war.

    They also had British centurion tanks.

    • Replies: @Z-man
    , @mcohen
  58. gcochran says:
    @roberthstiver

    Well, that’s a rather risky test. Big downside.

    • Agree: Dave Pinsen
  59. Bill says:
    @Anonymous

    Yeah. Why don’t we ever hear any criticism of Russia here in the US? It’s odd.

  60. Z-man says:
    @Jon Halpenny

    The turn came after ’67 when America became Israel complete, 100% bitch. In the ’73 war the Egyptians and Syrians were doing ok against the Zionists, so much so that they begged Washington for more heavy resupplies witch turned their fortunes and then let to a cease fire. Nixon fucked up, he should have let them lose more before intervening to get a cease fire!

    • Replies: @anonHUN
  61. “One has to hope that both LBJ and McNamara are currently burning in hell.”

    I have it from a supposedly well connected source that Lyndon’s currently waiting in the wings, suspended by his ears for the interim.

    Norman Finkelstein was interviewed recently about The Liberty attack, and expressed his own non-mainstream but likely reasonable views of why the Israeli forces in the area decided to hit America, too – to establish who is in full military control and who isn’t.

  62. @Eagle Eye

    Hasbara. Cleverer than usual. Probably worth a bonus from Mossad. But still just Hasbara attempting to muddy the waters and draw attention away from the true villains.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    , @iffen
  63. Rurik says:
    @Eagle Eye

    quoted passage is bunk

    perhaps

    I did sort of think the reference to vampires sounded gauche for someone like Franklin

    but then in a way, just like the Protocols, it does seem to strike a resonant cord, eh?

    they have depressed the moral level and lowered the degree of commercial honesty. They have remained apart and unassimilated; … they attempt to strangle the nation financially

    they will stream into this country in such numbers that they will rule and destroy us and change our form of Government for which we Americans shed our blood and sacrificed our life, property and personal freedom.

    our children will be working in the field to feed Jews while they remain in the counting houses, gleefully rubbing their hands.

    I mean, isn’t Robert Rubin and Goldman Sach$ Inc. looting this nation blind?

    even if he didn’t say it, it was nonetheless prescient, no?

    for the record I don’t blame the Jews for doing anything that the venal, cowardly WASPs didn’t help them do. I just suspect that WASPs in general are not so much enamored of the Jews, as afraid of them. It’s isn’t Jewish treachery that is so unspeakably vile- as in the attack on the USS Liberty, but WASP cowardice and treason and sycophantic groveling, that’s so repulsive. I don’t blame the treacherous IDF as much as I blame the American government / military for countenancing the murder of their own, by a nation that receives untold billion$ of dollars in tribute
    Jared Kushner is not a cuck when he agitates for all things Zion, but rather it’s the step-n-fetch goyim congress that reek of pusillanimous pandering.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Anon
  64. @n230099

    Hasbara. They must be paying by the post instead of the word to get the USS Liberty scandal once again out of the public eye.

  65. L.K says:
    @nsa

    The zionists could do it and did it; the zaudis could not. at best they furnished the patsies.

  66. iffen says:
    @Rurik

    it does seem to strike a resonant cord, eh?

    Only if you are tone deaf.

    • Replies: @Anon
  67. How did the Zionist enterprise get away with the USS Liberty attack? How did they get away with the burning of the USIS library in Alexandria? And how did their supporters in the media (Ex. Judith Miller, Michael Gordon, etc.) and gov’t (Perle, Wolfowitz, Feith, etc.) escape entirely free of blame for ginning up a bunch of bogus info on Saddam’s WMD? And now these folks are doing their best to get Uncle Sam to destroy the Assad gov’t and take on the Iranians while risking war with Russia.

    If you have enough money (Edelson, Saban) to buy Congress and enough control of the MSM, it doesn’t matter whether you tell the truth or not. The Israelis could bomb Ceder Rapids, Iowa and half of Congress and most of the MSM would find reasons to justify the attack.

    The pen maybe mightier than the sword but the dollar is stronger than both.

    • Agree: anarchyst, L.K
  68. Rurik says:
    @n230099

    Deal with it

    yea, OK

    as you say “War” is always a mess

    deal with it and stop your crybaby whining already

  69. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    even if he didn’t say it, it was nonetheless prescient, no?

    It’s always a good idea to engage the brain (if you have one) before you open your mouth. Stupidest sentence in a post filled with nonsense. But then what can we expect from a melodramatic idiot. Try using words you actually understand.

  70. L.K says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    I think that in the case of Finkelstein, it has to do with the fact that though he tells some truths and has done some good research re Palestine, ultimately, he is a Jewish gatekeeper.
    Rarely if ever do we see Finkelstein discussing the influence of zionist lobbies distorting ZUS foreign policy and the zionist’s pervasive influence in media, finance, politics, etc.
    He sort of follows Chomsky, a big Jew gatekeeper.
    There is a pattern I think, if the Jews cannot exercise censorship over certain topics they don’t want people talking about, they try to control discourse in other ways, so they can obfuscate & misdirect, they are very good at infiltration too.
    Think Chomsky with his BS about wars for oil and he is the one who’s been pushing the notion Israel is some sort of M.E asset for ZUSA, which is pure nonsense.
    Finkelstein seems to be just parroting Chomsky in this regard.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  71. @Eagle Eye

    Perhaps Franklin never said about the Jews what he is purported to have said. Shall we then conclude that the passage is art imitating life?

  72. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @iffen

    Could be he is talking about the ‘cord’ he puts around his own neck when smoking dope. It resonates with his brain waves. The cord, not the chord.

  73. L.K says:

    So, what about 9-11, Mr. Giraldi?

    Are you guys going to allow it to become another USS Liberty?

    The official story is clearly bunk & zionist fingerprints are all over it.

    Regarding the matter of whether or not bin Laden and ‘al-Qaeda’ were even capable of orchestrating the 9-11 Attacks, author and professor David Ray Griffin, wrote:

    For prosecutors to prove that defendants committed a crime, they must show that they had the ability (as well as the motive and opportunity) to do so.
    But several political and military leaders from other countries have stated that bin Laden and al-Qaeda simply could not have carried out the attacks.
    General Leonid Ivashov, who in 2001 was the chief of staff for the Russian armed forces, wrote:

    “Only secret services and their current chiefs—or those retired but still having influence inside the state organizations—have the ability to plan, organize and conduct an operation of such magnitude…Osama bin Laden and “Al Qaeda” cannot be the organizers nor the performers of the September 11 attacks. They do not have the necessary organization, resources or leaders.”

    Similar statements have been made by Andreas von Bülow, the former state secretary of West Germany’s ministry of defense, by General Mirza Aslam Beg, former chief of staff of Pakistan’s army, and even General Musharraf, the president of Pakistan until recently.[109]

    This same point was also made by veteran CIA agent Milt Bearden. Speaking disparagingly of “the myth of Osama bin Laden” on CBS News the day after 9/11, Bearden said: “I was there [in Afghanistan] at the same time bin Laden was there. He was not the great warrior.” With regard to the widespread view that bin Laden was behind the attacks, he said: “This was a tremendously sophisticated operation against the United States—more sophisticated than anybody would have ascribed to Osama bin Laden.” Pointing out that a group capable of such a sophisticated attack would have had a way to cover their tracks, he added: “This group who was responsible for that, if they didn’t have an Osama bin Laden out there, they’d invent one, because he’s a terrific diversion.”[110]

  74. mcohen says:
    @Jon Halpenny

    American tanks and artillery.french jets.chinese toe jammers.

  75. L.K says:

    I wonder; the USS Liberty was attacked many years before I was even born…

    2017 now, and the Israeli attack remains largely unknown to zamericans… quite amazing and a testament to something hardly ever discussed; Jewish power… the Zionist Power Configuration…

    Before the USS Liberty, there was the Lavon Affair… probably even less zamericans heard of that one:

    Eight years after the bombing of the King David Hotel, the State of Israel carried out a series of false-flag terror bombings against U.S. and British libraries, theatres, and other government institutions in Egypt in a terror campaign designed to be blamed on Egyptian groups. This Israeli terror campaign of July 1954 is often referred to as the “Lavon Affair” after Pinhas Lavon, the Israeli defense minister at the time.

    In 2001, we had 9-11, instantly, and without any real investigation or proof, conveniently blamed on Bin Laden and Al-Qaeda. The new Pearl Harbor has zionist fingerprints all over it.
    The “investigation” was a complete farce, 100% a cover-up. Evidence quickly destroyed, lies planted by the zio controlled media framing “muslim terrorism”, and then the totally fraudulent and ongoing war on “Terror” was launched.

    Given that after so many decades there is still no clarity re the treacherous israeli attack on the USS Liberty and little talk of the Lavon ‘affair’, the zionist rats are probably confident 9-11 will be a repeat of previous zionist ops against ZUSA, their responsibility never revealed.

    People should take some time to read investigative journalist and author, C. Bollyn’s;
    “Solving 9-11: The Deception that Changed the World”:

    http://bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book

    Chapter III – America the Target: 9-11 and Israel’s History of False Flag Terrorism

    http://bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book#article_11279

    The Israeli Origin of 9/11 and the War on Terror
    May 8, 2017

    http://bollyn.com/#article_15904

  76. Eagle Eye says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Hasbara. Cleverer than usual. Probably worth a bonus from Mossad.

    Almost right. Actually, we all report to Major Utsli Gutsli of the Aman (military intelligence). :)

  77. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    He sort of follows Chomsky, a big Jew gatekeeper.

    yep

    If you want to know who is a genuinely patriotic Jewish American who puts integrity before Israel, then just find the Jews that are willing to tell the truth about the USS Liberty (as Mr Unz is with this website) or 9/11 – Alan Sabrosky

    if they’re not, then they’re likely gatekeepers, as you insightfully point out

    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
  78. anonHUN says:
    @Z-man

    ” Nixon fucked up, he should have let them lose more before intervening to get a cease fire!”

    Well Israel was about to nuke the Arabs in that war (they already had nukes in 1967 but weren’t needed as it turned out). If the US didn’t send those shipments of arms to cover their losses and had the war continue to go badly for Israel then they would have dropped the Bomb.

    • Agree: Z-man
  79. @L.K

    Sept 11 sophisticated ?
    It was a mess.
    The explosives in the Twin Towers went off too quickly after one another.
    Too much thermite was used, three weeks after sept 11 there still was molten iron in the basements.
    The 47 stories building was blown up with explosives on the ground floor.
    The four ‘hijacked’ planes could not be used.
    The first plane flying into a tower had a bubble under the plane that passenger planes do not have.
    The second plane had no windows.
    No plane crashed in Pennsylvania, just a rocket was fired from a jet.
    No passenger plane flew into the Pentagon, probably a remote controlled fighter with a missile underneath.
    The Sept 11 miracle was that despite the mess in general the public could be fooled.
    The public even believed that NORAD could not see planes with transponders switched off, did not see that Cheney ‘happened’ to be there to destroy the tapes on which the flights of the four ‘hijacked’ planes were recorded, and the other flights: the planes that did fly into the towers, the jet over Pennsylvania, and the jet that flew into the Pentagon.
    Where these planes came from, probably some secret CIA base.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  80. iffen says:
    @Jus' Sayin'...

    Probably worth a bonus from Mossad.

    This is just too sad, you anti-Semites can’t even get your basics correct.

    Jews don’t pay bonuses!

  81. @ Rurik,

    Be wary of the ‘anon’ or ‘anonymous’ posters. I think Ron Unz had a thread on posting practices and a few admonitions to that effect but I don’t recall if their was any established protocol.

    If being an ‘anonymous’ poster is properly played it can be an effective troll maneuver in that it could end up getting a serious poster playing ‘whack a mole’ and getting pissed off when the same drive by shooter may have been someone who was just bested in a scholarly discussion of facts while having an established (Unz,com) identity.

    Unless I am not aware of some rules having been put in place that is how I see a potential menace developing. Of course in an open forum there are always 1001 ways to subvert 1000 rules but still I think that if someone doesn’t establish an identity and stick to his/her guns- what is the point in having discussions?

    Cheers-

    • Agree: utu, bluedog
    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Wizard of Oz
  82. @Rurik

    As far as I know just Finkelstein and Pappe acknowledge how the zionist army in 1948 ethnically cleansed Palestine.
    Not Chomsky.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  83. Hi PG, we’re “crying crocodile tears”, that’s what the hasbara claim and are assured by our low lives cuck politicians, even prostitutes sometimes wake up to the pimp’s abuse and will do something. We have a museum and a memorial built in our soil to commemorate the hollowfuax that never happened here or doubtfully there. There are hundreds of channels on the idiot box these days, full of all garbage you can think of. On a daily basis there is at least ten shows on different channel that will have something about this hollow-fiction..
    Few years ago I read a book by Richard Burton, written in the 19th century. Part of the book talked about Jews in Europe, mainly eastern. He actually warned of “their practices towards the Magyar and Slavs concerning money lending (usury)” that dispossessed a lot of poor farmers of their property and everything that had been accumulated over generations. He went on to say , if these people can find any excuse or support from authority, they will not hesitate to finish off these “jews”. His prediction came very close at the beginning of last century.
    When USS Liberty was bombed, there was all kinds of excuses (same as the ones we hear to this day, concerning any crime committed by the tribe), but the whore(s) can never go against her pimp master. Have you ever seen any resolution at the United Colonial Nations being voted by U.S. of Israel that condemned actual and real crimes by that “shitty” country?
    If we are not gonna get justice committed against us (9/11 included), you think our slave cuckticians will care what happens to others?
    We are now fully trained (like robots) to serve the master pimp.. The pimp says attack that country, we do it, kill one of fellow prostitute, we do it. Forced slaves never obeyed like this. Quite phenomenal………

  84. Rurik says:
    @Timur The Lame

    Be wary of the ‘anon’ or ‘anonymous’ posters.

    there’s a reason they stay anonymous Timur

    they’re cowards and know better that to take on their betters using a specific sobriquet

    they’re like sniveling omega hyenas who whimper from a safe distance in frustration

    somehow they always remind me of Gollum

    cowardly, treacherous, covetous of The Lie, but far too craven to ever even so much as create an identity- that will be humiliated off the stage and see them slink even more bitterly into their bile

    Cheers

  85. chris says:
    @Quartermaster

    … the problem was that 6th Fleet HQ had informed the Israelis we did not have any ships in the region.
    Israel admitted their mistake and paid reparations.

    Err, if they were induced to make a mistake because of false information from the 6th fleet, why on earth would they ever pay any reparations?

    Do me a favor, when you make up crap like this the next time, have your mom check the logic before you publish the comment.

  86. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    So, what about 9-11, Mr. Giraldi?

    Are you guys going to allow it to become another USS Liberty?

    very powerful LK

    very salient

    it is of course the question of the century, literally

  87. Art says:
    @Anonymous

    I get it. It was bad.

    But this Giraldi guy might once in a while also turn his eye to other players in the greater game.

    Like Russia, probably having shot down the Polish Leadership in Smolensk.

    Like the 1999 Apartment Bombings having been a Russian False Flag.

    Oh yes – hasbara 101 – when all else fails – point out that in the last ten thousand years of human history, someone else did something worse than the Jew.

    In the evil doings realm – the Jew is always proudly second from the bottom.

    In the idealistic Christian world, second from the top is OK.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. Of course Anonymous’ comment is implicit admission of guilt.

  88. Art says:
    @L.K

    So, what about 9-11, Mr. Giraldi?

    Are you guys going to allow it to become another USS Liberty?

    Scratch 9/11 and it bleeds Jew!

    • Replies: @mcohen
  89. Art says:

    A hastily convened and conducted court of inquiry headed by Admiral John McCain acted under orders from Washington to declare the attack a case of mistaken identity.

    … … … …

    Following in his father’s footsteps, Senator John McCain of Arizona has used his position on the Senate Armed Services Committee to effectively block any reconvening of a board of inquiry to reexamine the evidence.

    Oh my – more proof of HBD genetic bad seed syndrome. Like father like son.

    Maybe the senator is blameless for his evil traitorous activities favoring Israel.

    NOT!

  90. RobinG says:
    @Mr. Anon

    “USS Liberty: Dead In The Water” (BBC Documentary 2002)

    • Replies: @Mr. Anon
  91. mcohen says:
    @Art

    9/11 was a false flag operatiom by the russians to weaken the usa position in the middle east which it has.donald trump who is anti russian is changing that.
    All those who accuse israel are commie bum boys running errands for putin.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @SolontoCroesus
    , @Art
  92. Rurik says:
    @jilles dykstra

    Chomsky.

    https://www.democracynow.org/2014/8/8/noam_chomsky_what_israel_is_doing

    he likes being a hero on campuss, so he’s mollified his views

  93. chris says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Nice try!

    Your beautiful theory doesn’t explain why Israel would ever have gone along with such a plan?
    Johnson: “ok, Moishe, you sink one of my ships and I’ll destroy Egypt for you, yeah, no, I’m not kidding”

    Back to the drawing board!

  94. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Thirdeye

    What if the Japanese hadn’t attacked Pearl Harbor at all, and just pursued their offensives in Southeast Asia?

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  95. Talha says:
    @mcohen

    Dude – I am loving your posts – LOOOL!

    Peace.

  96. chris says:
    @animalogic

    Yeah, I think both of your points are closer to the real truth than any theory which has been forwarded.

    The theory that they wanted to kill the Egyptian prisoners fails because all they would have had to do was attack the ship once and apologize; the crew would have been busy with rescue efforts for the rest of the day, and they could have gotten back to doing what they do best in peace.

    No, they staked out their victim all day for very good reasons and they would have also had to be absolutely sure that Johnson would let them get away with it.

    The plan was probably for the US to attack Egypt and keep the Soviets out and for them to secure the greater Israel in one fell swoop, then it all got messed up.

    No worries, it’s all happening at a more leisurely pace right now.

  97. @n230099

    ” Deal with it” : LBJ should have dealt with it.

    He should have glassed the shitty little country and the world would be a saner safer more prosperous place today.

  98. @Dave Pinsen

    The Japanese, of course, were just trying to free the Hawaiian people from the ilegal occupation of their Islands by the theiving Yankees.

  99. Eagle Eye says:
    @American Shniper

    You really don’t get it, do you?

    Let me spell it out to you: Lyndon B. Johnson wanted a war – any war – for fun and profit.

    It is absurd to imagine that the president of the most powerful nation on earth in 1967 would take orders from a barely half-developed country in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    Most likely, LBJ expressly ordered Israel to attack the USS Liberty to give himself an excuse to bomb Cairo. Quite possibly, his orders to bomb Cairo were defied by senior military or civilian leaders afraid of provoking WW III, thus necessitating an impromptu cover-up.

    Put yourself in the shoes of the Israeli leadership in 1967 – why would they risk massively antagonizing the U.S. in the middle of a risky war? The only reasonable explanations are:

    (1) Israel had been ordered by LBJ to sink the USS Liberty (see above). This kind of order would have to have come from LBJ personally, not McNamara, for the Israelis to take on the risk. (Remember the U.S. betrayal of irregular forces at the Bay of Pigs was a recent memory.)

    (2) The USS Liberty itself was a major problem for Israel, e.g. because it was passing key intelligence to Egypt and the Arabs.

    Given the extensive hush-up operations in the U.S. after the fact, (1) seems much more likely. This would also explain why senior U.S. brass went into overdrive concocting bizarre but coordinated stories to deflect attention from their own shameful involvement in the murder of Americans.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  100. @mcohen

    All those who accuse israel are commie bum boys running errands for putin.

    Jews and Commies — a match solidly endorsed by Norman Finkelstein.

    Susan Liebman Butler has also placed her heart and her loyalty at the feet of Josef Stalin, just like Finkelstein does.
    “But Stalin killed millions of Ukrainians — far more people than Hitler killed,” someone reminded Liebman-Butler.
    Replied Butler: “Stalin had to do it to preserve his vision, and besides, they were Kulaks.”
    (if you’re a Kulak — or a sailor on a US ship — your death is inconsequential.)

    https://www.c-span.org/video/?190721-1/dear-mr-stalin

    Although — as hateful as their attitudes are: i.e. Finkelstein endorses “the Jewish attitude: Never Forgive, Never Forget,” and allows latent passive-aggression to come to the fore when he “hypothesizes” that Israelis killed Americans on USS Liberty out of their “deep and eternal hatred for the goyim” — at least he and Liebman-Butler own their psychopathologies.

    Not so Ron and Allis Radosh. They figured out tout de suite which side of the bread was buttered; after immersing themselves in Communism when it was beneficial, they switched sides and ratted out their former fellows.

    What they all have in common that they turned their psychopathologies into a livelihood.

    ——–

    By the way: A couple weeks ago the Jewish mayor of Charlottesville supported removing Confederate statues from public places in the Home of Thomas Jefferson.
    But Jefferson’s University, University of Virginia in Charlottesville, dedicates a week to memorializing the holocaust, and nearby Richmond, Virginia has a museum to the holocaust.

    Harpy Nikki Haley removed the Confederate flag from public places in South Carolina.
    But South Carolina created a council to study the holocaust, —>

    South Carolina Council on the Holocaust

    “The work that the SC Council on the Holocaust does is so important for our students in South Carolina. Having a chance to discuss and reflect on the past gives students the tools to be better citizens for our future.”

    –Molly Spearman, State Superintendent of Education

    How many students in US taxpayer-supported schools are given “the chance to discuss and reflect on” Israel’s attack on the Liberty?

    How many US states have memorials to the 34 men who died on the Liberty?

    • Replies: @chris
  101. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Bragadocious

    Might be interesting to find out how many Tribesmen were on the Liberty while it was in the Indian Ocean and how many still aboard after it was deployed to the Mediterranean.

  102. Art says:
    @mcohen

    All those who accuse israel are commie bum boys running errands for putin.

    May I nominate you for hasbara TROLL of the day – excellent work (funny too – big smile).

    Peace — Art

  103. Eagle Eye says:
    @animalogic

    On even the bare facts the Liberty incident represented that even 50 years ago, the US government was in (treasonous ) thrall to a foreign power.

    With respect, this does not follow at all. The entire world (U.S., UK, France, Israel) treated the Suez Canal as a key geostrategic area. In the 1956/1957 Suez Canal Crisis, the U.S. intervened forcefully against the UK/French/Israeli alliance which had no option but to back down in the face of U.S. opposition.

    The U.S. was and is pursuing its own aims. That these aims are often contrary to the interests of 95% of the U.S. population does not change the fact that the power elite are vigorously furthering their own interests.

    “Cultural Marxists” love to say that “oppressed” groups have no “agency,” i.e. shit just happens to them, they are tossed helplessly in a roiling sea of events.

    Is it really a reasonable explanation of observed facts to assume that everything the U.S. does is dictated by a few people in a small, far-away country?

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @animalogic
    , @Anonymous
  104. @animalogic

    2. Which leads to the 2nd point ( harder to demonstrate ) that the highest level of the US Admin KNEW about this or “a” pending false flag attack by the Israelis.

    Harry McPherson was LBJ’s speechwriter.

    He was in Tel Aviv on the day/time the war went hot:

    Jeff Gates knew McPherson and interviewed him for his book, Guilt by Association.

    Here’s how Gates describes McPherson’s Tel Aviv experience: ( @ 10 min)

    Harry was on his way back from a visit to Viet Nam and wanted to stop in Israel. He asked “the Boss” [LBJ] if that was ok; Johnson said, Fine, just clear it with everyone.

    So he flew into the airport in Tel Aviv and the lights were off. He thought that was curious. He got a call at about 4:00 am from our [the U.S.] ambassador who said, “the war has started.” [McPherson] said, “What do you mean, the war, I just came from the war.” This was the ’67 war.

    The ambassador said, I’m going to pick you up, and they went to meet with Abba Eban, . . ., the Israeli ambassador, and then went to see the head of Israeli intelligence.

    And they said, What is it? Did the Egyptians just come across the border? And the guy changed the subject. They asked again, and the guy changed the subject again.

    About that time they heard these air raid sirens beginning to wail, and they said, Don’t you think we should go into the air raid shelter? And this head of Israeli intelligence looked at his watch and said, That won’t be necessary.

    And these two gentlemen looked at each other — Harry and the ambassador — . . . and they said, Oh my god! This was a put-up job; they had been setting up this attack on Egypt and took out the Egyptian air force — their entire air force — in about an hour and a half. There was no attack on Israel.

    So a very close advisor to LBJ was on the scene in Tel Aviv and witnessed first-hand and at the highest level that Israelis were manipulating and manufacturing the crisis.

  105. Incitatus says:
    @L.K

    “Are you guys going to allow it [9/11] to become another USS Liberty?”
    “I wonder; the USS Liberty was attacked many years before I was even born…”
    “Where these planes came from, probably some secret CIA base.”

    Ah, 9/11. The catnip of conspirator theorists. Never mind the USS Liberty. Meow!

    L.K, jilles, Rurik,

    You guys missed your own 9/11 boat. The best theory (my favorite):

    “Anyone who views the contemporaneous footage can see for himself that there were no “collapses” of skyscrapers on 9/11. WTC 1 and 2 did not “collapse”, nor were they demolished in a conventional manner. They were disintegrated, with most of their steel and concrete cores being converted to fine dust. The destruction of WTC 1 and 2 (not to mention the core of WTC6) was not due to jet fuel, airliner impacts, or conventional demolition materials. The Twin Towers were almost certainly brought down by small – or perhaps micro – nuclear weapons. No other scenario is even possible, given that the events had all the signatures of nuclear detonations…”
    -Mulegino1 #356 27oct16

    http://www.unz.com/article/911-truth/#new_comments

    Please confer. Can you get your act together? How’s a reader to know who to blame?

    Have any of you – in reality, not on a computer screen – actually demolished or built a building? Dumb question.

    Tell us the truth. Do you speak daily with Captain James Kirk and First Officer Spock? What do they tell you? 9/11 was a conspiracy?

    Pray to the Machine to ensure the continuity of electrical power for your illusions (see E. M. Forester ‘The Machine Stops’).

    In future please remember Mulegino1’s “small – or perhaps micro – nuclear weapons”. No reason to reinvent your 9/11 wheel.

    Mulegino1 – are you out there? Salute!

    ps – don’t worry, I’m a troll (i.e. burdened with real world experience, old enough to remember USS Liberty first hand).

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Anon
    , @iffen
  106. […] By Philip Giraldi Global Research, June 06, 2017 The Unz Review […]

  107. L.K says:
    @Eagle Eye

    We see what you are doing here, (zionist)Eagle, and it is NOT working…
    First of all, it is not a few people in a far away country, but an organic, extremely powerful, well funded and organized zionist 5th column inside ZUSA.
    Nobody is claiming that everything ZUSA does is bc of the zionists either; they are, however, the main drivers of US foreign policy in the M.E and often beyond it.
    P. Giraldi wrote in his above piece:

    That Congress is deaf to the pleas of the Liberty crew should surprise no one as the nation’s legislative body has been for years, as Pat Buchanan once put it, “Israeli occupied territory.” The Lobby’s ability to force Congress and even the presidency to submit to its will has been spelled out in some detail by critics, first by Paul Findley in They Dare to Speak Out, later by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt in The Israel Lobby, in Alison Weir’s Against Our Better Judgment, and most recently in Kirk Beattie’s excellent Congress and the Shaping of the Middle East.

    Your attempts at misdirection have been noted.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  108. @Bragadocious

    There were some Jews among the Liberty’s crew. One was an interviewee in a documentary I saw years ago.

    • Replies: @Bragadocious
  109. L.K says:
    @Incitatus

    Indeed, you are a troll… that is about the only thing you got right in your idiotic rant, inZitatus.

    Listen, imbecile, as far as conspiracies go, the US government official story re 9-11 IS a conspiracy theory, except it does not have a leg to stand on, it contains more holes than most Hollywood movie scripts…

    BTW, I hear there is a new flick that is right down your alley… ‘wonder woman’…
    Israeli lead, German villains, and the best part of it is…
    It is all fiction, much like the ridiculous holohoax & its mythical gas chambers, 6 trillion, nieh, nieh.

    • LOL: chris
    • Replies: @Incitatus
  110. […] The Unz Review: Remembering the U.S.S. Liberty. The 50 year cover-up of a mass murder of U.S. servi… […]

  111. @Eagle Eye

    “Is it really a reasonable explanation of observed facts to assume that everything the U.S. does is dictated by a few people in a small, far-away country?”
    In THIS case it IS a reasonable explanation: if the US has not been acting in Israeli interests for 50 years, then whose ? (Other than the obvious point that US elites 99% of the time see US/Israeli interests as identical.)

  112. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    You’re right about the wrong use of the word Palestine. In the 18th century Christians called it the Holy Land.

    Turk pirates and slave traders still roamed the Atlantic and the Mediterranean at the time so the Christian pilgrimages were few and far between till 1830s when France conquered Algeria.
    The Holy Land was pretty much ignored in Franklins time.

    This is just another example of Rurik’s “research ” by Wikepedia instead of the nearest university library. Even middle school children are told to not rely on wikepedia

  113. @HBM

    No. Factions will arise, they are there already, then they will turn on one another. Long knives etc.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  114. geokat62 says:
    @mcohen

    …. normal finkelstein has been a mossad operative for some time.

    Here is our Mossad agent doing some more under cover work:

  115. @David In TN

    I looked at the casualty list and found a Toth and a Mendle, both of which can be Jewish names….or not. I wonder how the Jews on board felt about this attack. Given the actions of LBJ, it seems the Jew card has definite credit limits — when you’re going against the “Jewish State.”

  116. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    What percentage of your average day do you spend obsessing over jews ?
    What does your family think about your obsession ? Answer honestly please.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  117. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Mr. Anon

    The MSM doesnt cover the Indonesian occupation and genocide in West Papua or Maluku. Nor do they cover the Moroccan occupation and war crimes in Western Sahara . The Turkish occupation of Cyprus is ignored by the MSM . The apartheid in all Islamic countries where converting to Christianity is a death penalty offense. Why does Giraldi ignore these stories but has a dozen posts about USS Liberty if he is interested in shedding light on MSM oversights and cover ups.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Art
    , @Mr. Anon
    , @chris
  118. @Bragadocious

    The Jewish Liberty survivor said the Israeli attack was deliberate. He felt the same way the other survivors did.

  119. Israel enjoys a unique ‘license to kill’. This includes its own benefactors. No nation or people is safe from this self-seeking, malevolent force.

    • Replies: @anon
  120. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Eagle Eye

    The difference between Pres Eisenhower 1956 and LBJ 1967 is that Eisenhower was independent of Jewish power. LBJ was totally owned by Jews in both foreign policy and domestic policy( 1965 immigration act, 1968 affirmative action act, EEOC, funding all sorts of black militant war on poverty programs, on and on).

    I don’t believe in any of the who killed JFK conspiracy theories, but in terms of who benefits, LBJs anti White domestic policies fulfilled the dreams of every NAACP Jew since 1910.

  121. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Mark Green

    Syria has killed more people in the past 3 years than Israel has in the past 100 years. In fact in October of 1982 alone , Syria killed more people than Israel has in the past 100 years. Talk about a license to kill ……..

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @MEexpert
  122. […] “Remembering the U.S.S. Liberty”.  The date, June 8, should be an American national holiday, Cuck Day. […]

  123. L.K says:
    @anon

    No, zionist shill, what is taking place in Syria is also a war for Israel;
    Zionist agents have been planning this proxy war, going back at least to 2006, according to Assange.
    ZUSA and its coalition of rogue states have been fighting a proxy war against Syria through the use of Salafist-Wahhabi extremists from all over the world, posing as Syrian “rebels”.
    Veteran CIA Ray McGovern, during a cross talk interview on Syria, at 1:14; The Elephant in the room re the reason for ZUSA’s regime change policies toward Syria: Israel

    Former US marine Ken O’Keefe on RT about al-ciada und isis in Syria, etc

    • Replies: @mcohen
    , @anon
  124. mcohen says:
    @L.K

    Lk

    “says syria is a war for israel”

    Is that right.

    Turkey is flooding europe with jihadis and europe has established a beachhead on the syrian coast.

    What part of pakistan you from

  125. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    C’mon lower case. Don’t pretend to be dumb. America is PG’s country and main interest. Also one should be grateful on UR to find someone writing about something which he might have a real claim to know more about than he and the average Amrrican does about Cyprus or West Irian.

  126. MEexpert says:
    @anon

    I didn’t know Israel existed 100 years ago. The killings in Syria are being done by Israel and her collaborators (ISIS, Al-Qaeda, Al-Nusra, Jabaht-al-Islam and the USA). License-to-kill; how about Israel murdering people all around the world with impunity. Any killing done by these guys, anywhere in the world, should be blamed on Israel. Any war the US is involved in the Middle East is for the benefit of Israel and therefore any killings due to that war belong to Israel.

    • Agree: Z-man, L.K, jacques sheete
    • Replies: @anon
  127. Lot says:
    @Che Guava

    Unz.com has a great search feature. Took about 90 seconds.

  128. Lot says:
    @Anon

    The whole “false flag” thing should be obviously wrong to you all. There is no way Israel ever could have framed Egypt for an attack on a US ship because, like Israel, like every other country then and now, nobody has any incentive to deliberately attack a US ship. Moreover, by the time of the attack, Israel had already won the war, and the USA was already quietly supporting Israel.

    And as Dave Pinsen pointed out, if Israel had intended to sink the Liberty, it would have done so quite easily.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Rurik
    , @JoaoAlfaiate
  129. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Incitatus

    You are being very naughty. With all the maddies for some reason gathered to froth on this thread a few vital fuses may be blown if too much stimulus is applied.

    Now that you are hete I would be pleased if you would turn your sane and analytical mind to #31 and #43.

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  130. Eagle Eye says:
    @Anonymous

    I don’t believe in any of the who killed JFK conspiracy theories, …

    So Jack is still alive?

    I take it you also would not believe “in any of the who killed Caesar conspiracy theories …” so Caesar too is still alive.

    Do conspiracies ever happen in your world? Or would all the conspirators have to sign a notarized certificate before the rest of us are allowed to say that there is a conspiracy?

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  131. @Anonymous

    Whitewash shows clearly that it was impossible that Oswald was the only one who shot.
    Kennedy was killed two weeks after he threatened Israel with not giving them weapons any more if they continued developing their atomic bomb.

    • Replies: @ANON
    , @Anonymous
  132. @Anonymous

    Its is asserted that Eisenhower was a jew.
    How he hated Germans can be read in
    James Bacque, ´Der geplante Tod, Deutsche Kriegsgefangene in amerikanischen und französischen Lagern 1945 – 1946, Frankfurt/M, 1989, 1994 (Other losses, Toronto, 1989).
    Eisenhower writes in a letter “we should have killed more Germans”.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  133. Pueblo says:
    @The Alarmist

    Why Pueblo? I had been a sigint ship equipped with brand new life recording technics of the full radio frequency spectrum buildt by Hewlett Packard. It included advanced IT processing equipment with a large magnetic-core storage unit. Hewlett Packard equipped the Pueblo for a field test of its technology for a major Pentagon bid free of charge. The competitor Raytheon organised a false flag to kill the Hewlett Packard bid (likely in cooperation with the US deep state which used the incident to trigger the Xmas bombings on North Vietnam) and subsequently to take over HP after the loss of this huge investment.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    , @The Alarmist
  134. Ram says:

    Today the US is completely SERVILE to the Zionist state following in the footsteps of McCain.

    Shameful.

  135. LondonBob says:
    @Anonymous

    I think LBJ was more than owned given his ancestry and his very early support and actions going back to Leo Frank and going into the 30s with his support for Jewish immigration. According to historian James M. Smallwood, Congressman Johnson used legal and sometimes illegal methods to smuggle ‘hundreds of Jews into Texas, using Galveston as the entry port. Enough money could buy false passports and fake visas in Cuba, Mexico and other Latin American countries . . . Johnson smuggled boatloads and planeloads of Jews into Texas. He hid them in the Texas National Youth Administration . . . Johnson saved at least four or five hundred Jews, possibly more.’

    During World War II Johnson attended a small Austin gathering to sell $65,000 in war bonds. According to Gomolak, Johnson and a Jewish friend called Novy then raised a very ‘substantial sum for arms for Jewish underground fighters in Palestine.’ One source cited by the historian reports that ‘Novy and Johnson had been secretly shipping heavy crates labeled ‘Texas Grapefruit’ – but containing arms – to Jewish underground ‘freedom fighters’ in Palestine.’

    For a description of LBJ’s backing for Israel, see Neff’s, ‘LBJ Was First to Align US with Israel’s Policies’, in the Washington Report on Middle East, Nov-Dec 1996 p. 96. His affinity for Israel is movingly described by the Senior Editor of the Jewish Press in his article ‘LBJ and Israel’, 7 Sept 2002.

    LBJ’s early backing for Israel can be found in the Senate Records, 1957-58, the Eisenhower Library and LBJ’s own Presidential Library. After the 1956 Suez debacle, Israel clung on to Gaza and Aquaba, despite demands from both the US and UN to quit. By the spring of 1957, UN Secretary General Dag Hammarskjöld was actively promoting UN sanctions against Israel as an aggressor nation and in defiance of UN Resolutions.

    The Israeli plan was scuppered in the US mainly by Senate Leader LBJ, who urged the State Dept. not to support sanctions ‘against a small country like Israel’ and rallied support in the Senate to block any legislation. (See New York Times of 20 February 1957 and, perhaps significantly, Louis Bloomfield’s monograph, ‘Egypt, Israel and the Gulf of Aquaba’.)

    Like JFK, his predecessor President Eisenhower was no advocate of ‘Israel, Right or Wrong’. LBJ and Eisenhower locked horns over Israel when Ike became heavily involved with the crisis over Israeli attempts to annex a Palestinian area around Banat Ya’qub in 1953 in order to divert water from the River Jordan. America stepped in to broker a deal. When the UN observers realised that the Israelis were ignoring their part of the agreement, Ike moved swiftly to revoke tax-deductible status of Jewish-Americans to Zionist organisations in order to force Israel to honour its obligations.

    Despite enormous pressure from US Jewish lobby groups, LBJ himself and claims that his policies were ‘anti-Semitic’, Eisenhower stood firm. When the Israeli government realised that their money supply really was going to dry up, they backed down and Ike restored aid. Full accounts are in the LBJ Library Archive and – from a more objective viewpoint – in the ‘jfk montreal’ site.

    Just one month after succeeding Kennedy, LBJ attended the December 1963 dedication of the Agudas Achim Synagogue in Austin. Novy opened the ceremony by saying Johnson, ‘We can’t thank him enough for all those Jews he got out of Germany during the days of Hitler.’

    • Replies: @Anon
  136. @Eagle Eye

    It is absurd to imagine that the president of the most powerful nation on earth in 1967 would take orders from a barely half-developed country in the Eastern Mediterranean.

    “Were going to be screening the Zapruder film for you after tonight dinner again Mr President”.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  137. anonHUN says:
    @Bragadocious

    Toth is a very common Hungarian surname, it actually means “Slovak”. Of course can be a jewish person, but not a typical jewish surname.

  138. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    The Liberty incident is just a modern day hook. It can take a while to wade through some of these.

    BTW, I answered my last question to you and I was not at all pleased with the answer. I have decided to assert my rights as a normal human being and not think about the implications.

  139. geokat62 says:
    @anon

    What percentage of your average day do you spend obsessing over jews ?

    Sorry, anon. What we’re obsessing about is power. And you have to admit organized Jewry wield tremendous power. Don’t you recall how many standing ovations King Bibi was treated to by the bought and paid for members of Congress? Don’t you recall how upset they were when Rand Paul’s applause was deemed less than enthusiastic? Informed people can’t help but notice who has disproportionate power and it is only to be expected that they feel obliged to point that out.

    Trust this answers your question.

    • Agree: Rurik
    • Replies: @anon
    , @alexander
  140. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    I’m not disagreeing with you so much as trying to insist on rigour. Your point about incentives to attack a US ship is expressed too loosely and begs the question.

    You need to argue IMO that Israel couldn’t have been engaging in a false flag operation because there was no way that it was going to be reported during the attack or afterwards that Liberty was being/had been attacked by Egyptian aircraft and, on the fantastic assumption that Liberty was quickly sunk and all on board killed, that this was going to be attributed to the Egyptians despite the fact that it was day three of the Six Day War and the Egyptian air force had been crippled on day 1.

    The more I think about the deeply flawed case on UR threads for a high level plot to destroy the Liberty and everyone on it the more unlikely it seems. If I was looking for a high level Israeli reason for putting it out of action I would look to something to do with the attack on the Golan Heights but I don’t see many of the enthusiasts on this thread wanting to look at that because they assume that Johnson and Macnamara are already in on the Israeli’s war plan. And how it would help the Israeli takeover and retention of the Golan Heights is hard to see.

    I am increasingly of the view that the Sixth Fleet denial to the Israelis that there was a US navy ship in the vicinity as alleged by one commenter, if true, could be critical to explaining most significant unknowns, not least what Johnson and Macnamara didn’t do or say.

    • Replies: @Lot
  141. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @LondonBob

    You undermine a plausible account of facts which suggest that Johnson was far from being an anti-Semite (for what that’s worth in tbe USS Liberty context) by a ridicukous assertion or suggestion that he was of politically signifixant (or indeed any significant) Jewish ancestry.

    Unlike a lot of politicians with some known Jewish ancestry in Anglophone countries who are /were by no means special friends of Isrsel or Jews it seems tbat LBJ behaved in character and as a person in helping to save European Jews seeking asylum in Texas in the late 30s. That is what one would expect of a clever increasingly professional politician like Johnson seeking to build coalitions of supporters, especially those connected to money and activism, and is consistent with his growing up amongst the poor and having sympafhy for the underdog. Also I recall a Houston based surgeon expressing enthusiasm for Mexican immigrants to offset the blacks. You could factor that kind of thinking into the young Democrat politician’s calculations, especislly if he was not a natural strong ally of the strict segregationists and wanted less hidebound allies.

  142. Che Guava says:
    @Thirdeye

    You have a good point, but the big surprise in that surprise attack (preceded by a declaration of war) was the absence of carriers.

    The fleet aviation did not have the capacity to break up wharves and so on.

    The target had been ships, and the more decisive of the USN ones were mysteriously in a Pacific gyre, doing nothing.

  143. Che Guava says:
    @Thirdeye

    You have a good point, but the big surprise in that surprise attack (preceded by a declaration of war) was the absence of carriers.

    The fleet aviation did not have the capacity to break up wharves and so on.

    The target had been ships, and the more decisive of the USN ones were mysteriously in a Pacific gyre, doing nothing.

  144. ANON • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra

    You are soundung madder. Take your meds and sit down calmly and think what you sound like when you connect a(n alleged) unconsummated threat to Israel about arms supply (as if the Israelis didn’t have French and other alternative sources of supply!) to a plot conceived and executed within two weeks to kill the President of the United States in Dallas by sniper fire. No diplimatic alternatives apparently, no revving up big Demicratic donors… if you’ve read all these books you cite its a pity you haven’t also learned to think critically.

  145. Rurik says:
    @Lot

    if Israel had intended to sink the Liberty, it would have done so quite easily.

    they tried, and the proof is they machine gunned the life boats, obviously intending for no Americans to survive.

    the sheer barrage of weapons used from both sea and air attest to Israel’s intention to sink the ship with all hands. That they were incompetent, and the Americans heroic, seems perfectly probable, all things considered.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Lot
  146. Reality.Israel bombed “Liberty” intentionally.Reality. America knows it.Reality.America can not and will not do any thing about it.
    Reality.America is a colony of Israel.Reality.America acquiesces to this reality. Reality.American law makers are all Israeli agents and tools.Reality.Americans in the know are aware of it.Others are differentiate. Those who know won’t raise their voice for fear of stigmatised and ostracised and their careers and life destroyed by the Zionist lobby while this cabal is looting America left right and center.
    Reality. America once a powerful nation has lost its identity.America’s identity is subsumed with in that of Israel.Even if they realise it Americans can do nothing about it.

    If any one wants what the lobby has been planing how to suck off the last drop of blood from America then betray read” Questions of Survival” Haaretz June 22/23 2006.It is only for information, because America can not prevent this treachery.
    It is very unlikely that this comment will be published.

  147. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    No you are obsessed with jews , but apparently you are ashamed of this fact and need to make excuses. sad . very sad. very very sad. You never answered if you espouse your obsession with jews outside of your posting career , in real life. If so what does your family think of your obsession.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @chris
  148. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @MEexpert

    The killings in Syria are being carried out by the minority alawite dictatorship (alawites are 10% of the Syrian poplulation) that siezed power in a coup and has never relinquished it. In one month in 1982 the Syrians killed more people than Israel has in the past 100 years. The killing done by Syria in the past 3 years is 20 X what Israel has done in 100 years.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  149. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @L.K

    Hey happy guy !!!!
    Actually the illegitimate Syrian Alawite government is killing its own Sunni population . Sure Sunni are coming to help their brothers , it is their obligation according to the holy Koran. You must be an Islamophobe.

    Syria is a dictatorship . The Alawite minority is 10% of population . Sunni is 70% of the population. The Assad dynasty seized power in a coup and has been a murderous dictatorship since.

    This Alawite murder machine is nothing new. Forget the half a million killed by Syria in the past few years. In October of 1982 alone the Syria dictatorship killed 30,000 people.

    • Replies: @Ben_C
  150. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Oh please, you’re just trying to start a fight. How could you possibly infer from my post that I believe Kennedy was not killed? There are at least 15 very plausible theories.

    One theory is that LBJ had Kennedy killed. Commentors on the USS Libeety thread had information I didn’t know before. I always assumed the Israelis just attacked the Liberty on their own.

    When the Liberty managed to alert the American base in Spain American Jews were on hand in Washington to order Macnanara to send the American planes back.

    From this thread I learned that LBJ, the Krims and Macnamara conspired with the Israelis to destroy Egypt before the 1967 war began.
    That information makes the LBJ and the Israelis killed Kennedy very plausible. That’s what I wrote, not that Kennedy was not killed.

    All the who killed Kennedy theories are very plausible. The all have excellent motives. All have thousands of pages of proofs. They all contradict each other.

    You need to read posts instead of jumping on a couple words to start a fight.

    After I read Assault on the Liberty I bought 12 copies and donated them to college libraries in my area. I hoped that young people would read it. It wasn’t much, but it’s more useful than nitpicking and starting fights while keyboard warrioring.

  151. geokat62 says:
    @anon

    No you are obsessed with jews

    Ok, if you say so.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  152. @Lot

    “…if Israel had intended to sink the Liberty, it would have done so quite easily.”

    Hogwash.

    The torpedo an Israeli PT boat fired clearly shows their intent was to sink the USS Liberty.

  153. @Dave Pinsen

    From your comment may I conclude that the U-Boats that fired torpedoes at allied vessels during the Battle of the Atlantic did not intend to sink them?

  154. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @geokat62

    Do NOT TRUST the zionist Jew ‘anon’. He is a zionist troll posting comments in support of the jewish zionist mass murder and act as one of the zionist liar to fool dummies. He is a pro criminal and terrorist Israel. Don’t engage with this zionist troll.

    Please read the following comments where he is defending a mass murderer zionist jew at Richard Falk website. Don’t engage this zionist criminal supporter of the zionist crime against humanity.

    {
    anan
    June 6, 2017 at 10:01 am #

    Dear Prof Falk, I find your dialogue with Fred Skolnik to be very informative, nuanced, subtle and helpful. Both of you are highly intelligent and historically informed. Please don’t ban Fred Skolnik; but rather continue your public dialogue with him, so that the rest of us can learn from it.

    I haven’t finished reading the entire chain between both of you; but am enjoying what I have read so far.

    Your blog is one of the few places where informed substantive discussions about Palestine take place with people of different perspectives. Thanks for this.

    I don’t think it is helpful to call Fred “Hasbara”.

    Fred Skolnik, I don’t think that Prof Falk is an enemy of Israelis and Jews. There are very real enemies of Israelis and Jews, including Salafi Jihadi extremists who want to wipe Israelis and Jews from the face of the earth. There are soft Islamists who want to establish Sharia all over Israel and the world. There are BDS campaigners who want to end Israel. Prof Falk does not belong to one of these camps. I don’t think there is any edge to impugning his motives. We cannot always agree, but we can disagree agreeably and respectfully.

    https://richardfalk.wordpress.com/2017/06/06/fred-skolnik-and-the-politics-of-vilification/#comments

    You can’t really support Hamas; unless you are misinformed about them. It is understandable that so many people around the world, around the muslim world, around the Arab world, from Palestine and Israel are suspicious of Hamas.

    Israeli fear of Hamas is justified. The Egyptians have similarly attacked the Ikhwan in their own country; with broad popular support.}

    Expose the zionist mass murderers ALL OVER THE WORLD.

  155. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    One has to excuse ‘lot’, as this insect is one of the most pathetic zionist liars commenting here.
    ‘Lot’ of sad little lies….
    Though the village Idiot who takes the cake is the mcohen dude! What an ass-clown!
    And what is it with all these anon/Anon/etc zio trolls?
    Can’t these scumbags at least pick a handle!? Well… I guess it’s all part of their cowardly little games, as another poster noted.

    As for 9-11, given the cowardice of those few zamericans who know better, to confront the manufactured Zio narrative, there is a good chance it’ll become another USS Liberty.

    Bollyn is a rarity, a real hero, and he has paid a heavy price for it.

    I have been portrayed as an anti-Semitic writer by the leading media networks simply because I dare to investigate the evidence of Israeli involvement in the terror attacks.

    The level of the personal attacks against me increased dramatically in August 2006, when a police assault by three unidentified heavily-armed men resulted in my right elbow being fractured and my being unjustifiably shocked with 50,000 volts from a police device known as a TASER. This outrageous and illegal assault occurred at my home in front of my wife and eight-year-old daughter.

    I was taken to jail and subsequently charged by the police with resisting arrest and aggravated assault, both misdemeanor charges.[...]
    In early June 2007, I was found guilty of both misdemeanors after a seriously flawed four-day trial in which the police were allowed to destroy the video evidence and then openly lied on the stand. My expert witness and evidence were not allowed to be presented by the Cook County judge, Hyman Riebman, a Zionist Jew.

    Interview: Sean Stone and Christopher Bollyn on 9/11, Israel & the Mossad

  156. L.K says:

    I mentioned several specialists in a previous post, who stated that the official Bin Laden/Al-Qaeda narrative was an impossible one. C. Bollyn talked to 2 other such Intel specialists;

    In Germany, I had the opportunity to interview Andreas von Bülow near Köln. Von Bülow, an author and former member of the Bundestag (the German parliament) served on the parliamentary commission which oversees the three branches of the German secret service. Von Bülow said he thought Israel’s intelligence service, Mossad, was behind the 9-11 attacks. These attacks, he said, were carried out to turn public opinion against the Arabs and boost military and security spending.

    “You don’t get the higher echelons,” von Bülow said, referring to the “architectural structure” which masterminds such terror attacks. At this level, he said, the organization doing the planning, such as Mossad, is primarily interested in affecting public opinion. The terrorists who actually commit the crimes are what von Bülow calls “the working level,” such as the nineteen Arabs who allegedly hijacked the planes on September 11. “The working level is part of the deception,” he said.

    “Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation,” he said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events. “Journalists don’t even raise the simplest questions,” he said. “Those who differ are labeled as crazy.”

    Eckehardt Werthebach, the former president of the Verfassungsschutz (a branch of German intelligence), told me that “the deathly precision” and “the magnitude of planning” behind the attacks would have needed “years of planning.” Such a sophisticated operation, Werthebach said, required the “fixed frame” of a state intelligence organization, something not found in a “loose group” of terrorists. Both Werthebach and von Bülow said the lack of a complete “blue ribbon” investigation, with congressional hearings, into the events of September 11 was incomprehensible. These men made more sense to me than anyone in the U.S. government or media.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Rurik
    , @Anonymous
  157. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @L.K

    Thanks.

    Question is how the master planners kept the low value stupid actors like Saudis and Pakistanis misinformed or clueless while getting the job done by them and while making sure these guys leave the foot prints easy for detection.

    I guess’s despite 50,00 being involved in Manhattan only few knew what was going on

    Correct me or fill me in with more information if I am wrong.

  158. chris says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    …South Carolina created a council to study the holocaust

    That’s ok because, as Joseph Sobran once put it, introducing Holocaust Studies into the US curriculum can only lead, in the near future, to … Remedial Holocaust Studies

  159. @Bragadocious

    Jews died in the King David bombing – the attackers probably considered it collateral damage or the death of collaborators with the British or whatever. I don’t think Jewish crew on the Liberty would deter the Israelis from whatever course of action they chose, whether it was a deliberate attack or a mistake at some level.

    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
  160. @NoseytheDuke

    A few years earlier LBJ had threatened the Greek ambassador after some dispute, telling him the USA was a giant and Greece was nothing and could be crushed if the USA wished. Indeed, a short time before the Liberty incident there was a military coup in Greece and the USA probably set it in motion.
    I don’t think the equivalents of AIPAC had a lock on processes in the USA in 1967, whatever may have been the case later.

  161. @Uebersetzer

    I believe there were one or two American Jews among the crew who were Hebrew translators

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  162. Lot says:
    @Anon

    Exactly. Blowing up a subway is a plausible false flag. Egypt deciding to just randomly destroy a US ship makes no sense. The US saved Egypt in the Suez Crisis. It would never randomly start a war. The fact it had its airforce mostly destroyed and the rest trying to run to safety or used defensively is on top of that.

  163. Lot says:
    @Rurik

    So Israel, able to defeat multiple Arab armies and airforces in a matter of days, was only able to kill about 1/5 of the people on an unarmed ship?

    This degree of paranoid retardation is kind of fascinating.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @anon
    , @Rurik
  164. Lot says:
    @Thirdeye

    Taking out shore support in a single very long range sneak attack is not realistic.

  165. @Philip Giraldi

    Very likely, if they were monitoring Israeli SIGINT, they would have Hebrew-language specialists on board and most would be from a Jewish background.

  166. OT,

    Is anyone experiencing their posts not showing up or being posted and then disappearing?
    I don’t suspect anything other than a technical glitch because a very benign post of mine went into the aether as well as the post to which I was responding to.

    Maybe mcohen got the job as moderator?

    Cheers-

  167. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    That’s not the way it works. Signit doesn’t listen to the information as it comes in. It goes to the pentagon and navy intelligence. Hebrew is the language of Israel. Most American Jews know only a little Hebrew, certainly not enough to interpret and understand as it came in.

    Hebrew interpreters would be far away in navy intelligence buildings and the pentagon.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  168. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    The one fact agreed upon by all sides is that the Israelis murdered 34 out of 294 aboard. That’s only about 10 percent not 1/5.

    Most histories of the incident agree that the Israelis intended to kill all 294. They were only dissuaded by the presence of a Russian ship in the area.

  169. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    .. Israel’s intelligence service, Mossad, was behind the 9-11 attacks. These attacks, he said, were carried out to turn public opinion against the Arabs and boost military and security spending.

    not only that LK, but also to turn the American people into Palestinians, with check points and treating us at the airports as if we’re all terrorists. Not to mention total surveillance of our every email or phone conversation, every text and every thing our ‘smart’ phone cameras see.

    Just as Ehud Barak predicted on 9/11, ‘nothing will be the same’

    these psychopathic fiends are so far beyond the Pale, that it boggles the mind.

    they slaughter our citizens in horrific balls of fire, then they tell the people in the other tower to return to their work stations and cubicles knowing the second plane is on its way, hoping for maximum casualties.

    “it’s very good” after all

    and then they set about systematically dismantling our hard-won Constitutional rights as they send off our young people as cannon fodder to die in illegal wars on innocent nations. Earning the well-deserved hatred of the entire Islamic world.

    charming people these zio-scum, eh?

    but far, far worse are the American politicians and media whores who enable them

    Bollyn as you point out is an true American patriot. Thanks for the links

  170. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @L.K

    Thanks. I’ve kept an open mind about 9/11. But the German information in your post convinced me that Israel destroyed the towers. The only other reasonable explanation was a Jewish lightening insurance fraud by Larry Silverstein. But I never could see how he could have managed to fly 2 planes into the buildings.

  171. Miro23 says:

    For 2 hours on June 8th 1967 the USA was at war with Israel and the USA won!!

    With great skill and courage the crew of the USS Liberty kept their ship afloat and managed to send out a distress signal while under intense attack by Jewish jets and torpedo boats aiming to sink them without a trace.

    The Israelis were finally obliged to pull back, and traitor* Johnson had to recall his “retaliation” attack on Egypt and also ensure that the USS Liberty story fast disappeared from circulation, the same as the surviving sailors.

    To draw some parallels:

    In London on the 5th of November 1605 conspirator Guy Fawkes was arrested guarding explosives placed under the House of Lords with which he and his fellow plotters planned to assassinate King James I.

    In thanksgiving for the arrest, Londoners lit bonfires around the city, and the following January just before the plotter’s execution , the 5th of November was made a public holiday and came to be known as “Guy Fawkes Night” (“Bonfire Night”), the point being that more than 400 years later the day is still celebrated (barbeques, drinks, bonfires and fireworks) and everyone learns again of the treason of Guy Fawkes.

    So, kudos to Americans who light bonfires on “Lyndon Baines Johnson Night” (8th June) to remember his treason and commemorate the heroism of the USS Liberty crew.

    * Traitor: Whether Johnson was blackmailed through Israeli knowledge of his part in the Kennedy assassination (Nelson 2011) or because he was their co-conspirator (Collins-Piper 1995) is irrelevant. The fact is that he knew of Operation Cyanide and the coming attack on the ship and collaborated.

  172. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Lot

    Yeah the difference between Giraldi’s commenters and Sailer’s commenters is quite jarring really. The guys here are stormfront level rejects. Pathetic , obsessed and sick people.

    I saw a guy on stormfront advise readers that it was real easy to watch 2 hour long youtube conspiracy videos. Simply watch it at the table while you are eating your meals !!!!!!!

    He was so obsessed and socially unaware of how embarrassing and retarded it was to admit something so pathetic. Giraldi’s commenters remind me of that guy.

    • Troll: L.K
    • Replies: @Lot
  173. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra

    I’ve been to Dallas and took the tour of the Book Depository building. I looked through the window at exactly where Kennedy was shot. I’ve only hunted and shot rifles a little bit. But even I, who still flinches when the rifle bangs into my shoulder could have made the shot especially with the rifle propped up on a stack of cartons as Oswald did. It’s only about 50 feet from the window to where the car was.

    For every theory about the Kennedy killing there is another theory contradicting the first theory.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  174. RobinG says:
    @anon

    Israel is 100% more responsible than Alawites for casualties in Syria. The shrill and desperate hasbara lies from Tel Aviv’s troll army are getting more ugly and more absurd while Israel becomes weaker and more reviled.

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/who-is-destroying-syria/

    Who Is Destroying Syria?
    The Arab Gulf States, Israel, and Turkey all prefer anarchy to Assad
    .
    By Philip Giraldi • May 3, 2017

    • Replies: @anon
  175. Rurik says:
    @Lot

    So Israel, able to defeat multiple Arab armies and airforces in a matter of days, was only able to kill about 1/5 of the people on an unarmed ship?

    the only way Israel could ever survive even one day is with American weapons and expertise, and of course their well documented treachery.

    they are notorious cowards and inept soldiers. Why else would they do all they could to get others to do their fighting for them?

    why else would Ariel Sharon use Lebanese Phalange militias to slaughter the women and children of Sabra and Shatila? There was the possibility that one of the women or children might have picked up a sharp object or table leg and throttled one of the little Zio-boyz with it. Better to hide from a distance and get others to fight for you, huh?

    Hell, even the Israeli government was so appalled at Sharon’s brazen cowardice that they charged him with a war crime for that little incident.

    Just look at how a few ragtag Hezbollah troops can defeat the entire IDF with a fraction of the weaponry and nearly infinite toys the IDF has courtesy the ZUSA tax payer, but it’s all for nothing when the weapons are in the hands of cowards and incompetents.

    look at em all huddled down on their bellies with a sniper rifle to shoot children from the roof top

    and then if that isn’t stomach turning enough, the brave IDF soldier even congratulates his colleague for shooting a child! Wow, what gallantry! What valor!

    I’m surprised the IDF got as far as they did with the USS Liberty, since it did have a machine gun on deck and a few of the officers had side arms. And who know if they were able to call for help. In fact, as I understand it, the reason the IDF called off the attack is because they heard that jets were scrambled to assist the Liberty, and they wanted no part of a fair fight. So sure, they tried to sink her with all hands, but endemic cowardice and notorious incompetence saved the day.

    • Replies: @anon
  176. Incitatus says:
    @Anon

    Anon,

    Not necessarily sane or analytical, but here goes:

    “…I am not…convinced that it [attack on the Liberty] was an Israeli…decision at the highest level…”

    We’re all guessing. Hard to believe the coordination of air force and navy wouldn’t rise to the highest IDF level, if not higher. Israel takes pride in competence, and there’s no reason to discount them. At the same time it’s doubtful they’d underestimate the force necessary to kill all witnesses and sink the ship if that was their goal. Could have been (they tried hard enough). Most concede the attack deliberate. Was it mistaken identity? That’s the question.

    “None of the motives suggested are so compelling…to be accepted…”

    Agreed. Conspiracies seem far fetched. Nuking Cairo? False flags? Israeli soldiers sworn to secrecy? LBJ or Macnamara planning involvement? Utter nonsense (my opinion).

    That said, this isn’t my first USS Liberty rodeo: http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/aipac-is-back-in-town/#new_comments
    post #225, #250, #268, #292, #316 (31 Mar – 4 Apr 2017)

    As stated there, ‘Attack on the Liberty’ and James Bamford’s ‘The Cover-Up’ (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/aug/08/israel) differ significantly from the official US and Israeli accounts. Some of Bamford’s points:

    IDF motive: To attack and sink an Egyptian destroyer steaming at 30 knots after it shelled El Arish.
    Bamford: Liberty was easily distinguished from a warship, lacked heavy guns and sprouted spy antenna masts. It was clearly marked (Latin markings, ensigns – sailors hoisted a second large ensign during the attack). It was steaming at 5 knots (top speed well below 30 knots). IDF surveilled Liberty regularly for over six hours prior to the attack, at one point with friendly acknowledgment. Crewman Larry Weaver: “I was actually able to wave to the co-pilot. He waved back and actually smiled at me – I could see him that well. There’s no question about it. They had seen the ship’s markings and the American flag.”

    IDF explanation: mistaken identity.
    Bamford: IDF prolonged close surveillance (including friendly acknowledgment), followed by communication jamming, cannon fire, machine guns, rockets, napalm, 1000-lb bombs, torpedoes, and strafing life rafts. An attack thus varied and sustained seems unlikely mistaken or authored by mistaken judgment on behalf of the Israeli commanders on site (let alone further up the chain).

    Was Israel truly regretful? Let Bamford tell it:

    “In the days following the attack, the Israeli government gave the US government a classified report that attempted to justify the claim that the attack was a mistake. On the basis of that same report, an Israeli court of inquiry completely exonerated the government and all those involved. No one was ever court-martialled, reduced in rank or even reprimanded. On the contrary, Israel chose instead to honour motor torpedo boat 203, which fired the deadly torpedo at the Liberty. The ship’s wheel and bell were placed on prominent display at the naval museum, among the maritime artefacts of which the Israeli navy was most proud.”

    Israel claims a grievous mistake, fails to find any fault, and enshrines torpedo boat 203 as heroic? Comments Anon?

    War unleashed is rarely rational. The ‘67 War was an audacious gamble for nascent Israel. Raw memories of Ike’s humbling restraint in Suez ‘56 may have been fresh. Why tolerate loose ends that risk defeat? Trust no one. Better to eliminate all unknowns, anything that imperils success. The universal war code: do all that’s necessary to win. Eliminate all unknowns. The rest will sort itself out. And so they did (my uneducated guess).

    “surely [it’s] time to declassify everything.”

    Couldn’t agree more.

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
    , @Anon
    , @Sam Shama
    , @iffen
  177. Eagle Eye says:
    @Pueblo

    Interesting background info re HP and USS Pueblo – thank you.

    However, the USS Pueblo was seized by North Korea, not North Vietnam.

  178. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @jilles dykstra

    What does Eisenhower’s alleged Jewish ancestry and hatred of Germans have to do with Eisenhower’s position on the attempted 1956 attempted Suez Canal takeover?

    Absolutely nothing

    So why did you post it except to show off your so called knowledge of Eisenhower? Having English relatives and having lived in Germany I know that “educated” Europeans consider all Americans to be ignorant morons from Hillbilly Holler.

  179. alexander says:
    @geokat62

    You raise a very profound point, Geo.

    Why is there an urgent NEED for a “special prosecutor” to investigate the influence of a foreign power on our political system ,when it ‘s RUSSIA, ……but No NEED whatsoever , when its King BIBI and Israel?

    Have any of our MSM outlets ever even broached this subject ?

    If not , why not ?

    Is the issue of “influence peddling” only germane when “some countries” are influential…but not OTHERS ?

    Who made THIS the law of the land?..Who says it’s “just” ?…..and why ?

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Miro23
  180. Incitatus says:
    @L.K

    “….troll…idiotic…rant…imbecile…holohoax… mythical gas chambers…6 trillion…”

    Catnip alert! Meow, meow, meow!

    “…it [the official 9/11 theory] contains more holes than most Hollywood movie scripts…”

    You’re the expert in movie scripts L.K. Indeed, rather too many of them?

    You posit the official story false, but award the GWBush administration superhuman powers without explaining any mechanics. Their explanation is blatant criminal negligence consistent with their total incompetence in Katrina and Iraq ‘03. How could such bumblers pull off an inside job on 9/11?

    More important, you vomit fantasy instead of pressing for criminal charges for admitted failures in the official 9/11 story (let alone conspiracy and aggressive war in Iraq ‘03). Really concerned, or is it just a little itch you like to scratch that makes you feel better?

    ‘Wonder Women’? She’s nothing on you!

  181. Eagle Eye says:
    @Incitatus

    [Anon] “…I am not…convinced that it [attack on the Liberty] was an Israeli…decision at the highest level…”

    We’re all guessing. Hard to believe the coordination of air force and navy wouldn’t rise to the highest IDF level, if not higher.

    With respect, I suspect the question was meant in a different sense.

    Everyone here seems to agree that the Israeli government intentionally ordered the coordinated air-sea attack on the USS Liberty – the attack does not seem to have been an instance of erroneous “friendly fire.”

    I read the question as asking whether the decision to attack was an Israeli decision in the sense that the idea originated with the Israeli government.

    The alternative, of course, would be that LBJ and McNamara ordered Israel to attack and sink the USS Liberty as a pretext to enable the U.S. to launch an attack – possibly nuclear – against Egypt. Under this scenario, the Israeli government would have received the U.S. order and “decided” to implement the U.S. order by issuing instructions to the respective IDF units that carried out the attack.

    Remember that we are talking about the same LBJ/McNamara who are KNOWN to have staged the Gulf of Tonkin spectacle (against North Vietnam) in 1964 and the USS Pueblo incident (against North Korea) in 1968.

    Two points need to be addressed by any theory seeking to explain what happened:

    (1) As I have pointed out many times, radar and radio surveillance technology in 1967 easily enabled the U.S. to identify the source of the coordinated attacks in real time. In addition, U.S. intelligence assets in Egypt and Israel would quickly have advised the U.S. of what actually happened.

    This means that the U.S. could not have been hoodwinked, nor would the Israeli government have thought for even a second that they would be able to hoodwink the U.S. leadership. Public statements from both sides may deny this, but the state of technology in 1967 makes any claim of U.S. ignorance laughable.

    (2) What did the Israeli government THINK the attack on an intelligence asset operated by their most important de facto ally would achieve?

    Again, whatever may have been said in public, the idea that the U.S. leadership would think for even a second that Egypt had attacked the USS Liberty is risible, so this could not have been the intention of the Israeli government unless one posits a sudden outbreak of collective insanity.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Miro23
    , @Incitatus
  182. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @RobinG

    Assad government did the killing.
    Alawites don’t have agency now ??

    The Alawite dictatorship has been a murder machine since Hafez illregaly seized power in a coup.

    In October of 1982 Syria killed more people than Israel has in the past 100 years. Syria also killed half a million people over the past 5 years. Syria,was also complicit in the Beirut bombing of a USA marine barracks that left hundreds of Americans killed.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  183. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Mr. Happy !!!!!
    To summarize your word salad :

    Israel controls the world while at the same time being inept cowards.

    Keep it up . You are making total sense !!!!!!

    • Replies: @Rurik
  184. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Quartermaster

    6 million for a 40 million ship plus 34 dead and 140 or so wounded is not really reparations.

    If Israel did not control the US, 34 wrongful death settlements and reimbursing military military care for the wounded would come to far more than 6 million. Israel didn’t pay the 6 million anyway. Craven US gave the 6 million compensation money to Israel. Then Israel graciously gave it back to America.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  185. Rurik says:
    @anon

    Israel controls the world while at the same time being inept cowards.

    they don’t control the world, but they do control our fecal congress and our media, and the only way they were able to pull that off is because Woodrow Wilson gave them the keys to our Treasury. Trust me “anon”, if I had access to trillions of dollars of wealth, that I could lend out to my buddies and force the American tax slave to pay me interest on the money I lent out, and could give my buddies interest free loans and tell them when to short certain markets and have the fecal gov bail me and my buddies out when our casino bets went bad, well then “anon”, I can promise you that there’d be some serious changes in the way business was conducted around here.

    All the war criminals would find themselves at the Hague but pronto.

    all the banksters would be in pound-arse prison for a combined thousands + years

    the American people would finally be able to vote on genuine patriots that serve their interests, and not the interests of a criminal foreign rogue state.

    so many things would change, if only I owned the Federal Reserve Bank instead of international Jewish supremacists.

    I’d return them to the 1948 borders and force them to compensate every single Palestinian for any and all property that the Jews have stolen from the Arabs. I’d force them to pay massive reparations for the myriad and heinous crimes they’ve committed over the decades.

    I’d do so many things “anon”. Every single deepstate agent responsible for the USS Liberty would be brought to justice, and hanged by the neck until they stopped dancing. Ditto 9/11.

    the media would return to informing the public honestly and entertaining them with art that exalts the human spirit, rather than squalid potty culture.

    there’s just so many things that would change if only our congress would coin our currency as the Constitution demands, rather than handing that privilege over to the world’s greediest banksters and notorious cowards.

    yea, when it comes to financial treachery and chicanery, my hat is off to the Jews. They’re second to none, and none come close. But in combat, something tells me I’d rather have a German or a Russian at me back. I’d prefer Max or Vlad if I’m going to be in a fight, and not Irving or Moshe so much.

    • Agree: anarchyst
    • Replies: @anon
  186. Art says:
    @anon

    Why does Giraldi ignore these stories but has a dozen posts about USS Liberty if he is interested in shedding light on MSM oversights and cover ups.

    Because – unlike YOU – he loves America FIRST.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. Your utter dishonesty is disgusting!

    p.s. Your comments screech JEW!

    • Agree: geokat62
    • Replies: @anon
  187. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    Because – unlike YOU – he loves America FIRST.

    Then he should be most upset with Syria , who was complicit in the marine barracks bombing in Beirut in 1982 . You see that had American casualties of 241 killed. USS Liberty only had casualties of 35 killed. Furthermore the barracks bombing was deliberate murder whereas USS Liberty was a mistake . Also USS Liberty was a very long time ago and nothing of the sort ever happened again from the Israelis. Conversely the Beirut bombing of US marines was more recent.So by every metric , Syria is far worse .

    p.s. Your comments screech JEW

    !
    That is superiour to your comments that screech : Loser , social outcast , mentally deranged , dim witted , friendless , mentally sick , obsessed with Jews and totally unhappy .

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Art
    , @Ivan
  188. Ben_C says:
    @anon

    anon,

    I assume this means that Assad is killing the majority of the Syrian Arab Army (SAA) and even his own wife as well?

    Your comments are so utterly absurd that I simply cannot respond further at this point…

  189. RobinG says:
    @alexander

    The investigation we need now is the murder of SETH RICH.

    The whole “Impeach Trump” campaign is focused on Russian connections and alleged Russian hacking of DNC emails. Whatever anyone thinks of our legally elected President Trump, it is the office of the Presidency that is being fraudulently attacked. The Trump-haters are suppressing any information about the murder of Seth Rich, who may have leaked the DNC emails in question. That would be a leak, not a hack, and it would throw the Dems’ corruption case into the toilet.

    Demand an investigation.

    Appoint a Special Prosecutor to investigate the murder of Seth Rich, the alleged Wikileaks email leaker.

    https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/petition/appoint-special-prosecutor-investigate-murder-seth-rich-alleged-wikileaks-email-leaker

    On July 10, 2016, Seth Rich was shot twice in the early morning as he walked back to his house in Washington D.C. Immediately after the crime, the death was called an armed robbery… but none of Seth Rich’s belongings were taken from him.

    Rod Wheeler, a private investigator hired by the family, said that there was evidence Seth Rich had contacted WikiLeaks and that law enforcement were covering this up. MSM is not covering this murder, instead pushing it to the side, so it is now up to us.

    The facts do not add up, law enforcement stopped covering the crime, and now it is time for us to fight for justice. Seth Rich deserves this.

  190. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Rurik

    they don’t control the world, but they do control our fecal congress and our media,

    What about the European governments and media ? They must be controlled by Jews as well.
    Surely they are only flooding their own countries with Muslims and provoking the native population not to procreate because of the hand of the Jew ?? And what about Turki and Libya? . Surely they are controlled by Jews as well , as they are the mechanism of flooding Europe with Muslims . Surely the good Muslims of Turki and Libya are not flooding Europe and impending white genocide on their own volition . Surely the Jew must be in control of that evil as well ?? Could inept cowards really pull all of this off so smoothly ??

    I’d return them to the 1948 borders and force them to compensate every single Palestinian for any and all property that the Jews have stolen from the Arabs. I’d force them to pay massive reparations for the myriad and heinous crimes they’ve committed over the decades

    Jordan is occupying 78% of Palestine. what would your plans be for them ?
    Tell me about the compensation package you would offer to the following countries that all receive US aid :
    Sudan -Occupation of Darfur -700,000 killed ; Indonesia – Occupation of Papua -500,000 killed.
    Turki-occupation of Kurdistan and Cyprus – 80,000 killed ; Morocco = Occupation of Western Sahara – 40,000 killed ; Entirety of Israel – Palestinian conflict – 23,000 killed

    • Replies: @Anonymous
    , @Rurik
  191. geokat62 says:
    @anon

    Then he should be most upset with Syria , who was complicit in the marine barracks bombing in Beirut in 1982 .

    Some background info on the incident that resulted in the deaths of hundreds of American troops:

    “American Marines, who had been dispatched to Lebanon as peacekeepers to oversee the PLO evacuation but then had departed, hastily returned after the Sabra and Shatila massacres. They were housed in a large warehouse complex near Beirut’s airport.

    Over the next year, American forces found themselves drawn into the worsening Lebanese civil war. A key moment occurred on Sept. 18, 1983, when Reagan’s national security adviser Robert McFarlane*, who was considered a staunch supporter of Israel, ordered U.S. warships to bombard Muslim targets inside Lebanon.

    As Gen. Colin Powell, then a top aide to Defense Secretary Weinberger, wrote in his memoir, “When the shells started falling on the Shiites, they assumed the American ‘referee’ had taken sides.” [See Powell’s My American Journey.]

    Muslim attacks on the Marines in Beirut soon escalated. On Oct. 23, 1983, two Shiite Muslims drove explosives-laden trucks into two buildings in Beirut, one housing French forces and the other the Marines. The blasts killed 241 Americans and 58 French.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/05/19/how-israel-out-foxed-us-presidents-5/

    * Just to underscore how pro-Israel Robert McFarlane is, he was among those who were calling for the release of Jonathan Pollard (in a Feb. 9 letter to President Obama).

  192. Lot says:
    @anon

    There is certainly a lot of overlap between Unz.com and Nazi websites. Andrew Joyce for example is popular at Stormfront, does Red Ice Radio, and Occidental Observer. Same for Kevin MacDonald.

    What is unique about Unz.com is that it combines both neo-Nazi and far left Muslimist anti-Semites like Alison Weir, Norman Finkelstein, and Jeffrey St. Clair, plus hard to categorize conspiracy kooks.

    • Replies: @Ben_C
  193. @mcohen

    The troll tried his wacko kunspiracy theery on another comment thread and said it was Russian MIGs. He doesn’t know that the attacking jets were Mirages, which Israel had.

    I agree with Mr Bacon and I hope the “cohen” keeps on preaching his mindless nonsense.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  194. Hibernian says:
    @Anonymous

    I don’t know about ships, but in the Cold War, Army translators went up in Air Force planes to pick out what was valuable enough to be sent to the analysts.

    • Replies: @Uebersetzer
  195. @NoseytheDuke

    You are correct.

    Josephus’ works describe a lot of that sort of thing. The old Cain and Abel deal deja vu “all over again,” and it will never, ever end.

  196. @Bragadocious

    Remember the Patria, for one.

  197. RobinG says:
    @jacques sheete

    JC – at least mcohen is entertaining. I think most Unz readers know that his fabrications are a parody of the MSM fake news. The really vile hasbarat is the “anon” creature.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
  198. Mr. Anon says:
    @anon

    Because Mr. Giraldi is an American (as most of the rest of us are) and the USS Liberty was an American naval vessel. Doesn’t that kind of make it interesting?…………….to us?

  199. @Anonymous

    Apparently it is such an easy shot that Oswald was actually able to make it while leaning against a Coke machine with a drink in his hand, in the canteen, a couple of floors below the area from which you claim the shot was made. Amazing!

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  200. @Hibernian

    It depends whether you think they were just there to record stuff to be translated back at the Pentagon etc. at relative leisure, or whether they were also listening and recording to SIGINT material in real time with personnel who understood Hebrew. But since it was a war zone I would bet there were personnel listening on the ship who could make a decision on the relative importance then and there on what was valuable and what not.

  201. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Eagle Eye

    No, Incitatus understood my questions well enough and gave in return reason to imagine the back and forth amongst the IDF tough guys who did such a botched job (whatever the job was intended to be). Remember btw that the IDF delegated authority more and with better justification than other countries’ forces.

  202. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @JA139

    The war wasn’t unprovoked. Egypt blockaded Israeli shipping the month before, mobilized its armed forces, and expelled UN peacekeepers, and otherwise acted as if it were going to launch a war against Israel with its ally Syria (some today say Nasser was just bluffing, but there was no indication of that at the time). Israel couldn’t keep its citizen army mobilized indefinitely, as that meant its economy was grinding to a halt, with nearly all of its military-age male workers under arms.

    Israel threw the first punch, but Egypt had taken its jacket off, blocked the door, gotten its boys behind it, and was pointing at Israel and yelling, “We’re going to kick your ass”.

  203. Miro23 says:
    @Eagle Eye

    Again, whatever may have been said in public, the idea that the U.S. leadership would think for even a second that Egypt had attacked the USS Liberty is risible, so this could not have been the intention of the Israeli government unless one posits a sudden outbreak of collective insanity.

    It’s not necessary to posit a “sudden outbreak of collective insanity”.

    Psychology is not a very reliable science, but a basic finding is that past behaviour is a useful predictor of future behaviour .

    Both Israel and Johnson had a record of staged False Flag attacks (Israel: the King David Hotel bombing and the Lavon Affair, and Johnson: Gulf of Tonkin – interestingly involving an American intelligence ship).

    The American leadership (i.e. Johnson & McNamara ) didn’t need to think for even a second that Egypt had attacked the USS Liberty. They knew they hadn’t, but what mattered was the public perception.

    As usual, the idea was to channel manufactured national outrage towards, war – exactly the same as 9/11 with its mountain of fakery. Israel and their client Johnson wanted the US involved in the 6 Day War, specifically at war with Egypt.

    Johnson was a traitor plain and simple. Philip F.Nelson makes a strong case that he was also at the centre of the Kennedy assassination (“LBJ: The Mastermind of the Kennedy Assassination”) https://www.amazon.com/LBJ-Mastermind-Assassination-Phillip-Nelson/dp/1620876108/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1496901862&sr=8-5&keywords=lbj

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  204. chesnut says:

    Sounds very sensationalist and anti-semitic. Geraldi ought to be ashamed of himself! Fake history and not to be believed. I’ve heard this before about intentional bombings and strafing on other past occasions. Total BS! Hitler and Saladin would be proud…

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  205. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    It is very unlikely that this comment will be published.

    They don’t censor nobody, like someone would say.
    Except when you say a bitter truth about a columnist or a journalist, that is.

  206. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    What proof do you have that Oswald was 2 floors down leaning against a coke machine when Kennedy was shot? If some book you read claimed that there are a thousand other books that claim Oswald wasn’t really Oswald but some sort of substitute or some other theory.
    Repeat, I took the tour and looked out the window and it was an easy shot from that window.

    There are so many contradictory theories I don’t believe any of them. The fact is someone shot Kennedy that day. You read a book that claimed Oswald was 2 floors down. You believe that book.
    If you read 5 books there are 5 different claims. If you read 50 books there are 50 different claims.

    There is a retired Australian cop who has a TV show about the killing. He claims 2 secret service men shot Kennedy. The driver of Kennedy’s car stopped the car, turned around and shot Kennedy with a hand gun. Then a secret service man in the front passenger seat of the car behind Kennedy’s car finished the job with a rifle.

    I think that theory is ridiculous but the Australian managed to get himself a TV show that runs fairly often. Then there is the theory that Mrs Kennedy’s second husband killed Kennedy.

    What is ludicrous are the endless discussions of ballistics and marksmanship by wimp journalists who never even saw any kind of firearm in their lives.

    You believe one theory, I don’t believe any of them. I don’t sneer at your theory so don’t sneer at my refusal to believe in any of them.
    But anyone who can point and pull could have made the shot from that window , even me.

    • Replies: @LondonBob
    , @Anon
  207. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    Rurik is right and you are dead wrong. Maybe someday some well armed backed by the government Anerican Indians will stomp into your house and give you and your family 1 hour to pack up and get out.

    When you go to work next day you are told you’ve been fired and only American Indians can work there.
    And when you go to the county clerk and mortgage bank for the deed and proof of property tax payments you are told that all your ownership records have conveniently disappeared.

    Arabs in what is now Israel owned real property. It was confiscated by armed soldiers without any compensation or pretense of eminent domain. The country of Jordan has nothing to do with the massive theft of real property within the boundaries of what is now Israel.

    “The Arabs fled Israel for Jordan. So what. Don’t you periodically leave your house for vacations? If you came back after a month’s absence and found strangers living in your home and all your ownership records erased would just meekly accept and move to another country? No you would not.

    So why do you expect the Arabs of Israel, not Jordan to just meekly accept the theft by force and violence of their real property?

    The theft was not the abstract concept of Jordan and Israel. It was the theft of millions parcels of real estate owned by individual Arabs within the boundaries of Israel.

    As the King of Saudi Arabia said, ” if the Jews deserve their own state because of what the Germans did during the war why not give the Jews Bavaria?”

  208. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Miro23

    How was the King David Hotel bombing a false flag? The Irgun warned of the attack ahead of time, and claimed responsibility after.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  209. @Dave Pinsen

    An American newspaper cartoon in 1971 or 1972 depicted Anwar Sadat confronting an unruffled Golda Meir while holding a bomb with a lit fuse, Sadat shouting “This is it, this is really it!” Then when the fuse nearly burns down, he becomes alarmed, pulls it out and starts up again with “This is it!” In fact Israel and Egypt were regularly exchanging gunfire over the Suez Canal at this time, but more serious hostilities were being threatened. However, this cartoon basically depicted Sadat as an absurd poltroon making empty threats to an unruffled Israel. The 1973 war was to show that the threat was not so empty, although 1967 had probably encouraged both Americans and Israelis to assume it was just Arab bluster and rhetoric. Whether Nasser’s threats in 1967 were more substantial is certainly a point for discussion.

  210. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anon

    What does Syria and Assad have to do with the attack on the liberty? Assad was only 2 years old when the Israelis murdered 34 navy personnel and destroyed a 40 million dollar ship.

    Please explain how Syria and Assad were involved when he was 2 years old.

  211. chris says:
    @anon

    No you are obsessed with jews

    You, yourself seem to be, buddy, calm down, there, Sigmund Fraud!

    As you know, the reason we’re discussing the topic is because your team is now firmly in control and taking us all along to hell in a hand basket. We just want to offer you our seats.

  212. chris says:
    @anon

    Simply because in none of these other crimes are we directly supporting the belligerents with billions and billions of dollars. These being our dollars and obligations, we want to register our disagreement.

  213. LondonBob says:
    @Anonymous

    It is interesting that all these years later that there are still efforts being made to obfuscate what happened. The crazy theories are good because it makes all the others look crazy. Also explains many of the comments Mr Giraldi’s pieces get spammed with.

  214. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Incitatus

    You’ve moved me back a little toward suspicion of conscious crime although I don’t think any inference can be drawn from subsequent Israeli insouciance. After all no one in the UK apart from Nicholsas Tolstoy – to his considerable cost – has done much to follow up honestly the British bdtrayal of Ukrainian POWs that were shamefully returned to the tender mercies of Stalin. Nothing surprising there.

    You have nicely dismissed the mad theories involving Johnson and Macnamara. My feeling is that Norman Finkelstein’s kind of explanation in terms of personalities and prejudices is the way to go. Even if his detail is wrong one should try and imagine the brief conversations between pepped up tough guys in a service where they took pride in making decisions swiftly and taking responsbility without referring everything upwards. “American flag? My grandmother can run you up an American flag! Our guys have it from the Sixth Fleet tbat there isn’t any US ship anywhere near…….. Looks like a spy ship with electronics all over?! WTF is it doing? Give it a buzz and see if it pisses off”………. “So what’s this effing ship up to?”…… “I’ve spoken to Avi who just said, use your own effing inititiative. Better to be safe than sorry. One thing’s sure it isn’t there to help us take Jerusalem….” Etc…

    • Replies: @Incitatus
  215. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Anonymous

    I’ve nevrr come across that crazy retired Australian cop story. Are you sure you ate not recalling imperfectly a much more plausible version from a retired Australian cop based on the work of an American firearms expert that suggests the fatal shot was the result of a completely accidental discharge of the weapon held by a substitute secret service man who was standing in the car behind Kennedy. One thing in favour of the theory is that it explained why no one would be keen for the truth to get out and why so much messing with the evidence occurred at several stages.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  216. Miro23 says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    How was the King David Hotel bombing a false flag? The Irgun warned of the attack ahead of time, and claimed responsibility after.

    Christopher Bollyn can explain it better than me:

    The Zionists also began using terrorism as a tactic against the West in the 1940s, carrying out false-flag terror attacks against the United States and Britain as far back as the bombing of Jerusalem’s King David Hotel on July 22, 1946. The bombing of the luxury hotel was ordered by Menachem Begin, the head of the Irgun, a Zionist terrorist organization during the 1930s and 1940s. Begin, a terrorist and avowed racist, later became prime minister of Israel, a position he held during the 1982 invasion of Lebanon, which was led by Ariel Sharon, then minister of defense. Begin had a Jewish supremacist view of the world, which he used to justify his crimes of terrorism and genocide. “[The Palestinians] are beasts walking on two legs,” Begin, then Prime Minister Begin, said in a speech to the Knesset, as quoted by the Israeli writer Amnon Kapeliouk in his article “Begin and the Beasts” published in the New Statesman of June 25, 1982.

    Menachem Begin, the Polish-born head of the terrorist gang Irgun, and the King David Hotel he ordered bombed in 1946. “Everything was coordinated with the Haganah,” Prime Minister Begin later told the Israel Broadcasting Authority.

    Irgun and Haganah terrorists, disguised as Arabs, set off seven large demolition bombs in the basement of the King David Hotel, which was the base for the British Secretariat and the military command in British-occupied Palestine. Ninety-one people were killed, most of them staff of the secretariat. The attack on the hotel was the deadliest attack against the British in the history of the Mandate. To this day, the Zionist bombing of the King David Hotel is the terrorist act which has caused the greatest number of casualties in the history of the Israeli-Arab conflict. Zionist extremists, however, are proud of the terrorist bombing as one of their actions that compelled the British to give up the Mandate over Palestine.

    David Ben Gurion, the head of the Haganah militia who advocated the use of terror as a tool, supported the bombing. Although the Haganah publicly condemned the bombing afterwards, many researchers insist that the Haganah directly authorized the bombing. “Everything was coordinated with the Haganah,” former prime minister and Irgun leader Menachem Begin declared in a film clip from the Israel Broadcasting Authority’s “Scroll of Fire” series.

    NETANYAHU’S SUPPORT FOR TERRORISTS

    Members of the Irgun, which carried out scores of terror bombings in the 1930s and 40s (and its political successors in the Likud party) hold the world view that “political violence and terrorism” are “legitimate tools in the Jewish national struggle for the Land of Israel,” according to Arie Perliger and Leonard Weinberg, authors of “Jewish Self Defense and Terrorist Groups Prior to the Establishment of the State of Israel: Roots and Traditions.”

    In July 2006, the former prime minister and leader of the Likud, Benjamin Netanyahu, attended a two-day 60th anniversary celebration of the King David Hotel bombing with former terrorists of the Irgun and Haganah. The event was organized by the Menachem Begin Heritage House, the University of Haifa, and the Association of IZL [Irgun] Fighters. The seminar was held “to mark the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel, Jerusalem, by members of the United Resistance Movement (Haganah and Irgun),” the Jerusalem Post noted in its pre-event notices. The Israeli newspaper specifically noted that members of the Haganah and Irgun had been involved in the terrorist bombing.

    One of the terrorists even led a tour of the hotel he had bombed. The fact that the American-educated right-wing politician and terror specialist, “Bibi” Netanyahu, had participated in a two-day event celebrating the bombing of the King David Hotel was reported in the Jerusalem Post, and in leading newspapers in Britain, France, and India – but not a single word about the event was printed in the controlled press of the United States, the nation supposedly fighting a “War on Terror.”

    “It’s very good,” said Benjamin Netanyahu on 9-11 about the attacks which were thought to have killed more than 10,000 Americans.

    Netanyahu’s conspicuous role as the main speaker at an event celebrating an act of terrorism was not reported in any U.S. newspaper until Patrick Buchanan mentioned it in his article entitled “Moral Culpability for Qana,” on August 2, 2006. Buchanan’s comments, however, appeared only in independent regional newspapers in Pittsburgh, Wyoming, and Ohio:

    Rubbing our noses in our own cravenness, “Bibi” Netanyahu took time out a week ago to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the terror attack on the King David Hotel by Menachem Begin’s Irgun, an attack that killed 92 people, among them British nurses. This was not a terrorist act, Bibi explained, because Irgun telephoned a 15-minute warning to the hotel before the bombs went off.

    Right. And those children in Qana should not have ignored Israeli leaflets warning them to clear out of southern Lebanon.

    Our Israeli friends appear to be playing us for fools.

    “TERRORISTS IN DISGUISE”

    In 1946, The Times (U.K.) described the Irgun as “terrorists in disguise.” Sarah Agassi, 80, was one of the “terrorists in disguise” involved in the bombing of the King David Hotel, it reported. She and a fellow agent had cased out the hotel. Her brother and other terrorists had disguised themselves as Arabs delivering milk and brought seven milk cans, each containing 50 kg. (110 lbs.) of explosives, into the basement of the hotel.

    So the “Arab Terrorists” did deliver a 15 minute warning prior to the explosions.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    , @Eagle Eye
  217. @Dave Pinsen

    Egypt blockaded Israeli shipping the month before, mobilized its armed forces

    By this standard, the residents of the occupied territories are completely justified in attacking Israel since Israel has blockaded those populations. Good to know.

    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
  218. Miro23 says:
    @alexander

    Why is there an urgent NEED for a “special prosecutor” to investigate the influence of a foreign power on our political system ,when it ‘s RUSSIA, ……but No NEED whatsoever , when its King BIBI and Israel?

    Have any of our MSM outlets ever even broached this subject ?

    If not , why not ?

    If not , why not? – Because the US is a Neo-Medieval society.

    Medieval Europe was run by an Aristocracy-Church alliance for their own interests. They had courts, prosecutors etc., however there was one law for the Aristocracy/Church and another for commoners.

    No Medieval “special prosecutor” with any sense was going to take up commoner complaints against members of the Aristocracy or the Church. The commoner was more likely to be arrested and taken out of circulation as a troublemaker or “heretic”.

    The US Congress is a sycophantic piece of window dressing with as much relevance as the old Soviet “Parliament” or Saddam Hussein’s “Elected Representatives”. For example, when Congress is addressed by Binjamín Natanyahu, members are required to clap loudly with standing ovations while they are being filmed.

    In this way, the lack of enthusiasm in Ran Paul clapping could be noted and a video handed to the MSM to deal with:

    Jennifer Rubin (Washington Post) Tweet 4th March 2015

    “Unenthused Rand Paul Lifelessly Applauds Bibi http://bit.ly/1Ef1wm8 OOps.. almost like he has been faking his support for Israel until now.”

    That was all that was needed to get him back into line. He said:

    “Israel is and has always been America’s friend and ally. I was pleased to hear Prime Minister Netanyahu’s speech to Congress today, and join him in calling for peace and standing together for our mutual interests,” Paul said.

    “It is important to work together to prevent a nuclear Iran, and the spread of Radical Islam,” he added.

  219. Sam Shama says:
    @Incitatus

    Hi Incitatus,
    Late entry here, but I skimmed over the many comments, none too surprising in that the same old emotions, mental afflictions etc are bubbling to the surface.

    I have, like you and others, read about the Liberty tragedy, including listening to the declassified recordings of the pilots’ exchanges during the incident.

    Quite right.We are all guessing the full contours of the plan and ultimate motives. Some things are clearer on the other hand.

    The exchanges between the pilots leave me with little doubt that the squadron leader was under orders to identify and then launch the attack. The identification part confused me since he appears quite determined to carry out an attack. One of the pilots clearly says “Ze Shelanu! Shelanu!” , meaning “It’s one of ours! Ours!“, indicating an American ship. The Sq. leader then ignores the pilot and orders the group to proceed with the attack pattern prompting yet another objection from the pilot, who is then told “Ata tachzor be hazara le bait” meaning, “So you head back home to the base“.The attack proceeded with the remaining planes under the knowledge that it was an Egyptian ship.

    I am fairly convinced the squadron leader was under orders to attack while also required to convey to his group that it was an Egyptian vessel based on intelligence (flawed). The solitary pilot’s identification of the American colours was, therefore, a hindrance to carry out objectives and dealt with via an order to return to base.

    What has never been clear to me, far from it in fact, as to why on earth Israel, at the time a nation striving hard to get into the best books of the USA, engage in an act so asymmetric in potential repercussions, upon a guaranteed post-mortem investigation!

    The Sq. leader was badly mistaken and he overrode the pilot’s identification. That much is clear. He was also under orders which directed him to be aware of the possibility of Egyptian vessels operating in subterfuge. It is also possible that he was required to convince his group that it was an Egyptian ship no matter what.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Art
    , @Incitatus
  220. Rurik says:
    @anon

    What about the European governments and media ? They must be controlled by Jews as well.

    sort of

    since the Fed (and consequently their agents at Goldman Sachs and the US Treasury, et al) gives the ‘international Jew’ unprecedented ‘power of the purse’ to materially align the US fecal government to their collective will- vis-a-vis Israel and the Eternal Wars and human migrations, etc.., it only stands to reason that these same International Jews at the EU and ECB are all working towards the same goals, no? The bolstering of Israel while at the exact same time the historic and irreversible destruction of Europe.

    why “anon”, would Germany build expensive modern submarines (capable of launching nukes on Germany) and hand them over to Israel for free… while at the same time morally participating in immoral wars of aggression on Israel’s well-earned enemies… while at the same time morally participating in a genocide, while at the same time facilitating a genocidal invasion of Germany that will rip Germany apart at the seams and cause unimaginable strife f0r generations to come?

    why would they do all of that, especially when all of it is extremely unpopular with the German people? Eh “anon”?

    so yea, obviously having control of the world’s reserve currency has given world Jewry terrible powers of the purse to destroy other people’s nations. Like France. Like England. Like N. America.

    Sure, their nefarious financial power is global in reach. There’s no doubt about that.

    Surely they are only flooding their own countries with Muslims and provoking the native population not to procreate because of the hand of the Jew ??

    basically, yea

    I won’t elaborate, but I think most educated people take that as a given.

    And what about Turki and Libya? . Surely they are controlled by Jews as well , as they are the mechanism of flooding Europe with Muslims

    Turkey and Libya can’t be put into the same narrative.

    Turkey is a Muslim country with delusions of Sultanic empire grandeur. Opportunistic, craven, they have wet dreams of invading Europe while at the same time abase themselves in supine genuflection begging Europe to pretend that they’re Europeans too.

    Whereas Libya was a regional success story run by a nationalistic patriot who created a miracle in Libya, until the Fiend came bashing in, and destroyed it all, and all of it to benefit Israel and the International central Banksters. Duh.

    Muslims of Turki and Libya are not flooding Europe and impending white genocide on their own volition . Surely the Jew must be in control of that evil as well ?? Could inept cowards really pull all of this off so smoothly ??

    it isn’t rocket science. If given the opportunity, all the world’s third world people would flood into the first world. Duh. The effect of the Jew is his use of unlimited money to corrupt the governments and media of the first world so that they open their gates. It’s the same thing they did to Spain in the eighth century. They insinuate themselves into a white society and then work feverishly to destroy it from the inside out. Nothing new under the sun “anon’. (speaking of endemic cowardice, why don’t you pick a handle so we can all track your ‘brave’ identity “anon”?)

    Jordan is occupying 78% of Palestine. what would your plans be for them ?

    Jordan is Arab, and are not genociding other Arabs. I have no interest or concerns about inter-Arab issues so long as I’m not dragged into them or otherwise forced to fund or vouchsafe one side or the other.

    Sudan -Occupation of Darfur -700,000 killed

    blah, blah, blah

    the reason the Zionist / Palestinian issue is critical is because it is the reason my country was dragged into WWI “anon”. (Did you know that? It’s called the Balfour Declaration. Check it out)

    Also it is arguably the reason the world was dragged into WWII. Right after the Nuremburg trial farce, where the world was lectured by the Allies on the evils of aggressive wars and ethnic cleansing, what happens but some Jewish terrorists start butchering and slaughtering Arab villagers in order to terrorize them off their ancient lands so that they could steal the land for themselves. This would be so notable, except that is was the world’s Jews that were screeching at Germany and everyone else for either facilitating or ignoring their ‘Holocaust’. You see?

    And so what’s been rather untenable ever since then, and particularly today, is to see these sanctimonious shitstains on the world’s stage believing that they can browbeat the rest of the world for their terrible suffering, and build all these museums to the evil of the Gentile world for allowing them to be genocided, even as these same shitstains perpetrate the exact same thing on people who are completely innocent, unlike the Jewish Bolshevik who Germany was fighting an existential battle for its very existence against.

    So there is a lot of history to all of this. And the Zio/Arab conflict is insinuated into our lives in a thousand different ways. The exact same Hollywood mogols who make Nazi films every week demonizing all Germans and Germany for the crimes of a few Nazis, are the same ones who work to facilitate the genocide and Nakba being committed in the holy land, ya see “anon’.

    It’s all tied in. And it underpins the Eternal Wars that are ripping the world apart and threatening a global nuclear holocaust. For real.

    There have been many terrible crimes and genocides throughout the decades and centuries “anon”, but none like the Zio one that is so wrought with hypocrisy, treachery, terrorism, human rights atrocities, and generations long humiliations of an incredibly put-upon people.

    I’d love to take these issues you bring up and flesh them out one by one. There’s a lot we can all learn together if we really want to get to the crux of these issues and solve them, at least philosophically. And then perchance we can lead a movement where the world will take notice and start to act in ways that are more sane and humane. I know you don’t approve of cowardly soldiers shooting children from rooftops “anon”. Who could possibly defend such craven, sniveling behavior?! So let’s shine a light on all of this, and together we can start to effect real change in the world. We can do our own version of Tikkun olam “anon”, starting right here on the Unz Review! ;)

    • Agree: anarchyst
  221. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Repeat, I don’t believe any theory as they get more and more ridiculous. One book more than 90o pages claims that the conspirators had surgeons standing by to alter the wounds between the time Kennedy died in Dallas and the time the body arrived in the autopsy room.
    Believe any theory you want, but why argue with me about the fact that I don’t believe anything other than Kennedy was killed by a gunshot in Dallas?

    Argue with someone who has a different theory than yours. Don’t argue with me who doesn’t believe any theories.

  222. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    What has never been clear to me, far from it in fact, as to why on earth Israel, at the time a nation striving hard to get into the best books of the USA, engage in an act so asymmetric in potential repercussions, upon a guaranteed post-mortem investigation!

    Hey Sam,

    it all makes total sense of you understand the intention was to sink the ship with all hands- which would mean there were no witnesses- which could mean they would be able to blame the whole cowardly act of murderous treachery on Egypt. And by doing so get the US to destroy Egypt for them.

    Can you imagine Israel perpetrating a murderous act of treachery as a false flag to get the US to destroy seven countries that Israel doesn’t like?

    Would that be incomprehensible in your view?

    IOW, would that be completely unprecedented and out of character from what you know about Zionists?

    (that’s a leading question btw ; )

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  223. @chesnut

    I’ve heard this before about intentional bombings and strafing on other past occasions. Total BS! Hitler and Saladin would be proud…

    Speaking of Hitler and fake news, I bet 99% of what you think you know about him is fake news.

    “… this entire myth, so prevalent then and even now about Hitler, and about the Japanese, is a tissue of fallacies from beginning to end. Every plank in this nightmare evidence is either completely untrue or not entirely the truth.

    If people should learn this intellectual fraud about Hitler’s Germany, then they will begin to ask questions, and searching questions…”

    - Murray Rothbard, Review of The Origins of the Second World War, 1966

    http://mises.org/daily/2592

    Isn’t it about time that some people should begin to question propaganda that’s three-quarters of a century old? Maybe it’s time to get over some stuff like some of the hasbara trolls have suggested.

    • Agree: L.K
  224. Art says:
    @anon

    p.s. Your comments screech JEW

    That is superiour to your comments that screech : Loser , social outcast , mentally deranged , dim witted , friendless , mentally sick , obsessed with Jews and totally unhappy .

    Here at the trailer park, next to the junk yard – I am low man on the debating scene. But every once in a while – my brain pops up with a truth – and I win the discussion.

    I see from your response that you are confounded and greatly disturbed by my simple truths about Israel and its supporters.

    One look at Israel – and we see what evil lurks in the Jew soul. Your wanton unjust treatment of the Palestinian people screams evil!

    My meager intellect can see that truth – too bad for you Jews – you will always lose to the truth.

    For the truth to not shine – requires coercion – and coercion bring hate – and so we see the history of the Jews.

    Peace — Art

  225. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Anon

    The retired Australian cop also claims that the driver of Kennedy’s car turned around and shot Kennedy with a handgun. As far as the soi disant firearms expert referred to in that show, there have been hundreds of people claiming to be firearms experts who have hundreds of different opinions about the weapon used.

    Don’t argue with me about my favorite theory. I don’t have one Argue with someone who believes a theory that contradicts your theory.

  226. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    I am fairly convinced the squadron leader was under orders to attack while also required to convey to his group that it was an Egyptian vessel based on intelligence (flawed).

    That was Israeli Jews – what about American Jews?

    We can be 100% convinced that a US president covered up the Jew attack.

    We can be 100% convinced that a US court covered up the Jew attack.

    We can be 100% convinced that the US military covered up the Jew attack.

    We can be 100% convinced that the US Jew MSM covered up the Jew attack.

    We can be 100% convinced that US Jews coerced all these people to cover up the Jew attack.

    Peace — Art

  227. Israel, which aggressively spies on us, kills our citizens and takes billions of dollars of our tax money which could be better spent here, is no friend of the United States and never has been. Just ask anyone who served on the U.S.S. Liberty.

    The same can be said of Jews in America who support/wield the power and force the issues. Jewish power is corrosive, whether it is in support for Israel or the destruction of the country that they call social justice. To hell with all of them.

  228. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,
    I am not much of a false flag aficionado. What I can say without any hesitation runs counter to, I’m sure, what many on this page believe, which is that in Israel, the people and the administrations are deeply anxious the US view and support remain on the side of the nation. [Note, Bibi's little act a few years ago, flexing his metaphorical muscle on the floors of Congress, was merely Bibi thumbing his nose at Obama and whipping up his political home base, all with the U.S. Congress' support which really by that point needed no encouragement to discredit Obama. That was in many ways an anomaly, never witnessed before, nor likely to be repeated in the future. ] .

    Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today, and therefore the notion that they would carry out a false flag of that scale is simply absurd.

  229. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today, and therefore the notion that they would carry out a false flag of that scale is simply absurd.

    False flag – or not false flag – there has been 50 years of cover up – shame on all the Jew who have coerced the American culture.

    This gross cover up has led to 9/11 and the Iraq war and all that has followed – Shame!

    You Jew are now working on an Iran war – Shame!

    Will there ever be peace with the Jew among us?

    Art

  230. @JA139

    You’re absolutely correct .. The entire 6-day war was a particularly brutal and unprovoked attack by Israel on Egypt and other Arab states. Just as the Israeli gov’t. lied about the attack on the Liberty, they lied about being attacked by Egypt.
    Egypt’s leader, Abdel Nasser, amassed his tanks and infantry somewhat close to the border with Israel, but he didn’t order them there to attack the Zionist Entity, he wanted to ensure that Egypt wouldn’t be attacked. Little did he know, that Israel would do just that.
    The USS Liberty, an Intelligence ship dispatched to the northern Mediterranean to gather information on the conflict and pass it back to Washington, DC. The Liberty remained in International waters the entire time it was situated off the Egyptian coast. However, Israeli boats and aircraft approached the vessel, from which a huge US flag waved in the breeze. Ignoring the flag, the IDF pilots and boaters launched their vicious attacks on the ship, killing 34 sailors and wounding 174. The motive? To drag the US into a war against the Arab states on Israel’s side .. However, as we all know now, that attempt failed.

  231. @Pueblo

    Too bad we didn’t have Trump + Twitter in the 1960′s, eh?

    “Lyin’ Lyndon, too beholden to Tel Aviv to care for the victims of the Liberty. Such a shame!”

    “Lyin’ Lyndon lets a beautiful ship with our wonderful boys fall to the Norks. Disgrace!”

  232. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Miro23

    Apparently, he can’t.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  233. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Chris Mallory

    Sure, and by your logic, you’re justified in attacking the U.S., because it has security checkpoints at airports. In fact, you could retroactively use it to justify 9/11.

    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
  234. Incitatus says:
    @Eagle Eye

    ee

    I agree the attack was cleared (leastwise post facto at the inquiry) at the highest level. But what was the order? To attack a US ship? Doubtful. More likely – neutralize all unknowns in the war zone with overwhelming force. The Liberty, given Suez ‘56 and it’s potential to feed intelligence to enemies, was – ultimately – an unknown.

    You assert “their most important de facto ally” was the USA. Doubt Israel thought they had (or could afford) any allies. In any case, their major aircraft supplier was France.

    A tiny country gambles all in attacking neighbors to obtain strategic objectives for posterity (existence). There are no fall backs: in the event of failure, defeat and extinction loom in their minds. Suez in ‘56 paints the US as unreliable, a source of disaster regardless of what LBJ might say.

    Can’t believe LBJ and McNamara were involved in any planning. Both knew how to sort out events to their best advantage after they happened. Loyalty to the USA is fine, but worthless if personal succession is jeopardized. Spin excuses and move on. They both deserve years in Hell.

    Don’t blame Israel. Well, that’s not quite true. They still haven’t produced a reasonable explanation for the incident. The victims deserve better.

  235. Incitatus says:
    @Anon

    “Norman Finkelstein’s kind of explanation in terms of personalities and prejudices is the way to go”

    Finkelstein’s interesting. ‘Holocaust Industry’ is compelling, though (my opinion) it doesn’t in any way mitigate the original monstrous crime. Many seek to use it thus. Not sure I wholly agree Israeli hatred of non-Jews figured per say in ‘67 and the Liberty.

    Maybe it was simpler? Time for us (Israelis) to turn tables on the world? Prove we’re a force to be feared and respected? Don’t depend on allies – there’s no such thing when one runs out of luck. Win at any cost! Eliminate any potential threat.

    How many IDF in ‘67 served in Suez ‘56? It’s a small country – probably most knew someone, if they didn’t themselves. Trust no one!

    Order of the day: take nothing for granted, eliminate any unknowns. Victory is the only thing that matters.

    Americans should expect nothing less going into battle for Uncle Sam.

    My best guess, but who knows?

  236. @Sam Shama

    Sam Shama: “Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today, and therefore the notion that they would carry out a false flag of that scale is simply absurd.”

    Well, Sam, how much influence did the Israelis have in 1954? Ever heard of the Lavon Affair? That’s when Mossad arranged to bomb the USIS library in Alexandria (and other western targets in Egypt) and blame the attacks on the Muslim Brotherhood:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

    .

  237. @Dave Pinsen

    Airport security checkpoints are not blockades that prohibit building supplies and most foodstuffs. It is the terrorist state of Israel that attacks aid ships bringing in food and medicine.

    Like a typical Israeli hypocrite you don’t like being held to the same standard to which you hold others.

  238. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today…

    According to this JPost article, she wielded roughly 80% of the influence she does today:

    In the 1960s and ’70s the legislators charged that American policy in the Middle East was too pro-Israel and that Congress was corrupted. In 1962 Fulbright launched an investigation of foreign lobbyists in Washington, attempting to force AIPAC to register as an agent of Israel rather than a domestic American lobby. His chief investigator was a journalist named Walter Pincus. (Today, Pincus, The Washington Post’s veteran national security reporter, helps cover the Jane Harman story and the Rosen-Weissman trial.) “Israel controls the United States Senate,” Fulbright told Face the Nation in 1973. “Around 80 percent are completely in support of Israel; anything Israel wants it gets. Jewish influence in the House of Representatives is even greater.”

    http://m.jpost.com/app/article/141281

    And we all know what happened to Senator Fulbright for all his troubles:

    Virtually every daily newspaper in the United States has carried a lengthy obituary on former Senate Foreign Relations Committee Chairman J. William Fulbright, who died Feb. 9. Missing from every account, however, even in “newspapers of record,” which devoted a half page or more to the life of this remarkable Arkansas Democrat, was any mention of his strongly felt and often voiced Middle East views, which were a major factor in his 1974 electoral defeat at the height of his power.

    The reason was not that he was critical of the role of the U.S. Central Intelligence Agency in propping up the shah of Iran for 26 years after he was nearly deposed in 1953, or the senator’s views of what he saw as excessive U.S. arms sales and transfers to Middle East countries. It was his outspoken views of an expansionist Israel and its all-powerful American lobby that were totally missing not only from his obituaries, but also from most mainstream press coverage of this eminent American leader during the final 20 years of his life.

    “So completely have many of our principal officeholders fallen under Israeli influence that they not only deny today the legitimacy of Palestinian national aspirations, but debate who more passionately opposes a Palestinian state,” wrote Senator Fulbright in his 1989 book, The Price of Empire. “The lobby can just about tell the president what to do when it comes to Israel.”

    http://www.washingtonreport.me/1995-april-may/u.s.-obituaries-on-senate-leader-j.-william-fulbright-omit-his-mideast-views.html

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  239. @Dave Pinsen

    David Pinsen states about the 1967 Arab-Israeli war: : “Egypt…acted as if it were going to launch a war against Israel with its ally Syria (some today say Nasser was just bluffing, but there was no indication of that at the time).”

    Daveed, if there was no indication that Nasir was bluffing, please explain what Yitzhak Rabin meant when he said in January of 1968:

    “I do not believe that Nasser wanted war. The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on 14 May would not have been enough to unleash an offensive against Israel. He knew it and we knew it.”

    • Replies: @L.K
  240. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Yes certainly, let’s include the weighty opinions of that segregationist and masked anti-Semite, why don’t we? Why stop there? George Scratchley Brown anyone? The Grand Mufti of the Klan perhaps?

    • Replies: @chris
    , @Anon
    , @geokat62
    , @Art
  241. Eagle Eye says:
    @L.K

    … an organic, extremely powerful, well funded and organized zionist 5th column …

    We are talking about 1967, not 2017. Back then neither Israel nor its backers in the U.S. had anywhere near the clout that their detractors attribute to them in 2017.

    In 1967, Israel was not in any real sense a U.S. ally. Israel’s fighter jets at the time were French Mirage. U.S. sales of armaments only started in 1968, i.e. after the 1967 war.

    Some 10 years earlier, Israel and its temporary allies UK and France had been forcefully rebuffed by the U.S. in the Suez Canal Crisis, and Israel as a whole was still working to become an advanced country and was still heavily influenced by socialist thinking.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  242. L.K says:
    @JoaoAlfaiate

    As former ME correspondent and author, Alan Hart, has stated about the 1967 war:
    “Still today, 48 years on, there are relatively few people who know the whole truth about how Israel set the stage for war in June 1967 to grab more Arab land. …
    And that was the main reason why the hawks, military and political, wanted Dayan as minister of defence (for which read attack) in a unity government. They knew he would take Israel to war to complete Zionism’s unfinished business of 1948 – grabbing more Arab land, including and especially the West Bank.”

    He provides many other quotes from Israeli officials and military commanders who dismissed the notion Israel was in any danger or that the war was of a preemptive nature:

    On 14 April 1971, a report in the Israeli newspaper Al-Hamishmar contained the following statement by Mordechai Bentov, a member of the wartime national government.

    “The entire story of the danger of extermination was invented in every detail and exaggerated to justify the annexation of new Arab territory.”

    On 4 April 1972, the Israeli newspaper Maariv contained the following statement by General Haim Bar-Lev, Rabin’s predecessor as chief of staff.

    “We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the Six Day War, and we had never thought of such a possibility.”

    In the same Israeli newspaper on the same day, General Ezer Weizmann, Chief of Operations during the war and a nephew of Chaim Weizmann, was quoted as saying the following.

    “There was never any danger of annihilation. This hypothesis has never been considered in any serious meeting.”

    In the spring of 1972, General Matetiyahu Peled, Chief of Logistical Command during the war and one of 12 members of Israel’s General Staff, addressed a political literary club in Tel Aviv. He said:

    “The thesis according to which the danger of genocide hung over us in June 1967, and according to which Israel was fighting for her very physical survival, was nothing but a bluff which was born and bred after the war.”

    And in a radio debate Peled said:

    “Israel was never in real danger and there was no evidence that Egypt had any intention of attacking Israel. Israeli intelligence knew that Egypt was not prepared for war.”

    In the same programme General Chaim Herzog (a former director of military intelligence, future Israeli ambassador to the UN and president of his state) said:

    “There was no danger of annihilation. Neither Israeli headquarters nor the Pentagon – as the memoirs of President Johnson proved – believed in this danger.”

  243. chris says:
    @Sam Shama

    Yeah, all the anti-Semites at the Jerusalem Post.
    LOL

  244. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Do you know anything about military (or naval or air force) matters? Even if you just considered what you know about big government or business organisations you would surely know that it is absurd to believe the IDF would do anything inessential to victory which requited that absolutely no witnesses survive or manage to get off detailed messages before they died.

  245. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Sam Shama

    I had only thought of Fulbright’s record as flawed, like LBJ’s, and no doubt many other’s, by having to go along with the South’s most primitive prejudices to stay elected. Anti-semite? Why do you say that? On what evidence? And doesvot mean that he was wrong about Jewish or Israeli influence?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  246. Miro23 says:
    @Dave Pinsen

    OK, well here’s an easier to read summary:

    IRGUN TERROR BOMBING OF THE KING DAVID HOTEL

    1) ) The hotel housed the central administrative offices of the post war British Mandate government of Palestine.

    2) Zionist terrorists disguised as Arab delivery men, waiters and workmen placed 7 milk churns loaded with 350kg of explosives against the main structural pillars of the building in the basement.

    3) The charges were detonated at 12.37hrs on 22nd July 1946, partially collapsing the hotel and killing 91 people.

    3) In July 2006 Netanyahu attended a celebration “to mark the 60th anniversary of the bombing of the King David Hotel” (organized by Menachem Begin Heritage House).

    4) He later went on to describe the 9/11 WTC terror bombings as “Very good for us”.

  247. @Sam Shama

    Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today, and therefore the notion that they would carry out a false flag of that scale is simply absurd.

    Anyone know the meaning of “non sequitur”?

    There are so many holes in your brief “non-kunspiracy theery” that I’ll be chuckling all day over it. Your comments do provide some entertainment value, so thanks!

  248. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Yes certainly, let’s include the weighty opinions of that segregationist and masked anti-Semite, why don’t we?

    Ok, Sam. Let’s assume you’re right about Senator Fulbright being a masked anti-Semite (although you don’t provide a single shred of evidence to support that charge). But what about this passage from the same J Post article:

    In the 1960s and ’70s the legislators charged that American policy in the Middle East was too pro-Israel and that Congress was corrupted.

    From this passage, isn’t it safe to infer that the good senator from Arkansas wasn’t alone in his views about the power of The Lobby?

  249. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Yes certainly, let’s include the weighty opinions of that segregationist and masked anti-Semite, why don’t we?

    Just following-up on your charge that senator Fulbright was a masked anti-Semite, Sam.

    And rather than relying on the KKK, I visited The American Jewish Council for Judaism website for more details on this matter. Here’s what the AJC had to say:

    Fulbright knew he would face serious political hazards by focusing on the Jewish Agency. The year before, he had been harshly attacked as anti-Israel for complaining that U.S. government aid to Israel exceeded aid to all the Arab states together. He told me years later (I interviewed him for my book on the Fulbright scholarship program) that the United States and Israel each had national interests which did not always coincide. For Zionist attackers, however, that was tantamount to anti-Semitism. Fulbright was not an anti-Semite — only, as columnist Dorothy Thompson once wrote, “by appointment.”

    When Fulbright returned to Arkansas to take part in a state-wide political campaign he was harassed at his fund-raiser. Zionists badgered him over his “anti-Israel” views. The decision to expose the Israeli lobby, according to Fulbright’s biographer Randall Bennett Woods, “was not Fulbright’s but [staffer Walter] Pincus’s, who was himself Jewish.” His investigation, writes Woods, “had revealed clearly that agents of the Jewish Agency and other American Zionists had violated provisions of the Foreign Agents Registration Act.”

    http://www.acjna.org/acjna/articles_detail.aspx?id=83

    btw – I was pleasantly surprised to see that the AJC made reference to that other masked anti-Semite, Dorothy Thompson. You remember Dorothy, don’t you, Sam?

    Here’s her wiki entry:

    Dorothy Celene Thompson (9 July 1893 – 30 January 1961) was an American journalist and radio broadcaster, who in 1939 was recognized by Time magazine as the second most influential woman in America next to Eleanor Roosevelt. She is notable as the first American journalist to be expelled from Nazi Germany in 1934 and as one of the few women news commentators on radio during the 1930s. She is regarded by some as the “First Lady of American Journalism.”

    After being feted as the second most influential woman in America, they did to Dorothy what they did to Helen Thomas:

    She spoke out against Hitler. For that, they made her a hero. She spoke up for Palestine. For that, they silenced her.

    https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/32196663/the-silencing-of-dorothy-thompson/community

    I must say, Sam, I am very pleased with your resoluteness in defending the indefensible. It provides us with ample opportunity to bring to light the truth about the nefarious nature of The Lobby. I just wanted to express my gratitude.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  250. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    in Israel, the people and the administrations are deeply anxious the US view and support remain on the side of the nation. [Note, Bibi’s little act a few years ago, flexing his metaphorical muscle on the floors of Congress, was merely Bibi thumbing his nose at Obama and whipping up his political home base, all with the U.S. Congress’ support which really by that point needed no encouragement to discredit Obama.

    Sam,

    Now please don’t tell me that you don’t see the raging contradiction in what you’re trying to say here. If Israel is sooo concerned about how they’re perceived in the US, then why would Bibi come to the US, where the citizens are extorted for billion$ of dollar every year to hand over as tribute, and mock the sitting president in his own capital?!

    Why would Bibi make a thunderous demonstration of Israel’s absolute domination of our sycophantic and treasonous congress if he was so “deeply anxious” about how Americans perceive Israel? That moment is written in stone as an ‘in your face’ political catastrophe. He simply wanted to massage his Zio-id. He wanted to be the ‘big man on stage’, and ‘damn the torpedoes’.

    The whole stunt was, for lack of a better word; stupid.

    Which is something else that needs to be said about the cowardly attack on the Liberty. It was beyond stupid. But this is the thing, Israel is very often stupid, aren’t they? It’s called hubris Sam, and few people on this planet suffer that affliction more than Israel and Israelis.

    Remember the Mossad agents that were arrested on 9/11 and held by the FBI for several months afterwards? Well what do these really ‘smart Jews’ do but go on Israeli television and admit that they were there to “document the event”. And thereby admitting to the world, and to the American people that they knew the attack was going to happen, and yet didn’t warn the Americans. How well did these ‘smart Jews’ think that was going to effect the ‘special relationship’ Sam? If all Israelis are sooo concerned about how their nation is perceived?

    Reminds me of how when Bibi was asked what he thought of the hideous and cowardly attacks on 9/11, when it blurted out “its very good”. Stupid Sam. So caught up in their own solipsistic world of hubris, that they can’t see beyond their egos and agendas.

    Which takes us to the cowardly attack on the Liberty. It may have been brazen, and even well planned, but it was also very, very stupid Sam. Dumb. Idiotic. And characteristic of Israel’s leadership. It seems there’s nothing about being Jewish per se that means they’re going to act intelligently, huh Sam?

    So yea, are the Israeli Zionists happy that Jewish money (looted from the Americans) finds its way back to the states to corrupt the US government and “Christian” churches into abasing themselves in abject obeisance to Israel? Yes, of course they are! But even as they’ve managed to turn our congress into a treasonous$ sewer, and tens of millions of “Christians’ into bloodthirsty apologists for murder and genocide… they still can’t resist their own brand of hubris and self-congratulation to the point of arrogance and irrationality. They’ve come to believe their own version of their specialness, and that their god is looking after them and blessing them in all their treachery and rapine. But he isn’t, is he. Rather he’s just a delusion of grandeur, and the Israelis just people, and often very stupid people at that.

    Back in 1967 Israel wielded not even 1% of the influence it does today, and therefore the notion that they would carry out a false flag of that scale is simply absurd.

    well Sam, all educated people know that the Zionists were able to drag America kicking and screaming into a war they didn’t want, all the way back to WWI. Fifty years before the cowardly attack on the Liberty, then if you extrapolate the trajectory of their influence from WWI to the craven and sniveling attack on the Liberty, when the potus would betray our own men in uniform to a treacherous ally turned enemy- out of fealty to a foreign power, then where would that put us today?

    No, they have their influence. They’re able to corrupt politicians and buy up the media and other sinister depravities of our institutions, but they can’t control it all. They can only control the illusion, and only do that insofar as they have a monopoly on the means of communication. As they had during WWI, and WWII, and during the attack on the Liberty. But today the Internet has changed the paradigm Sam, and the truth is ebbing out there. So when you suggest that their influence back then was only a fraction of what it is today, well then all I can tell you is that you’re wrong Sam. It was greater back then, when all they had to do is lie from three television networks and they had a lock. Today there are so many cable networks and Internet news sites and weblogs and other sources of information that they’re power is waning Sam. Just as any arguments in a vain and pathetic attempt to ‘justify’ what Israel did on June 8, 1967, are increasingly mocked as lies and shameless apologists for murder and a beyond heinous war crime.

    Just like 9/11

    • Agree: jacques sheete, L.K, chris
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  251. Ivan says:
    @anon

    St Reagan went into Lebanon to save the Israeli chestnuts. If the Israelis had kept up the butchery in Lebanon in pursuit of the PLO the Arabs including the Egyptians would have been forced to intervene. And the Americans came in with their heavy naval guns. If you were at the receiving end of those bombardments you too would want to kill your enemies. So the bombing of the Marine compound is the direct result of the invasion and destruction of Lebanon. Further the 20,000 figure for Homs is sheer exaggerations. You have to discount it by three quarters.

  252. Sam Shama says:
    @Anon

    Fullbright was far cleverer than the garden variety, Mearsheimer and Walt duo being the worthy successors. At some level, I don’t really mind all that much what they write or say, except to remark on those infrequent instances, when their rhetoric verges on innuendo. Still, I will recognise Fullbright and M&W as bright citizens of this nation; the shine dulled here and there.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Art
  253. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    “They”, Geokat, could simply be the voice of the people, as it were! Dorothy Thomas (could not locate a link; perhaps you’ll succeed) if memory serves, called Fullbright an antisemite only “by appointment”

    • Replies: @geokat62
  254. @Eagle Eye

    We are talking about 1967, not 2017. Back then neither Israel nor its backers in the U.S. had anywhere near the clout that their detractors attribute to them in 2017.

    While that contention may be true, some still had a lot of (undue) influence, long before 1967, and we’re still paying for their crimes today.

    Ever hear of Sidney Weinberg, the powerful Goldman Sachs banker, and his relationship with FDR and several subsequent US presidents? How about Bernard Baruch? Ever hear of him?

    How’s about Jacob Schiff, head of Kuhn Loeb Bank; -Paul Warburg, brother-in-law to Schiff; and Edward Mandell House? Those cats were apparently highly influential with Ol’ Woody Wilson, one of the original American butt boys for the type

    So, just because their clout was not as great a century ago as it is now, it appears irrational and devious to suggest that the power was minimal.

  255. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Dorothy Thomas (could not locate a link; perhaps you’ll succeed) if memory serves, called Fullbright an antisemite only “by appointment”

    Everything ok, Sam? Did you post this comment in haste?

    If I’m not mistaken, Sam, the “by appointment” remark attributed to Dorothy Thompson (not Thomas. That might explain why you could ) was meant to convey that the Lobby simply “appointed” senator Fulbright an anti-Semite – i.e., without any evidence to support it.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  256. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Too long for a full read on a Friday afternoon. You conveniently left out the last sentence from my paragraph. Anyway, you continue to trot out too many half truths and distortions to reply. One such being that TV interview with the Israelis, in which the translation from Hebrew reads quite differently than the original – shamelessly distorted, tenses changed, meanings altered etc. But why am I surprised…?

    • Replies: @chris
    , @Rurik
  257. chris says:
    @Sam Shama

    If you have no argumens, just pick some minor side point, pretend to knock it down with some WFW move, pump your fist 3x in the air and declare victory. Hope none of us notices.

    Fail!

  258. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Yes certainly, let’s include the weighty opinions of that segregationist and masked anti-Semite, why don’t we? (Fulbright)

    Oh my – heavens to Betsy – sacques res bleux – god help us – can this be —– a Jew is damming another for being a tribal segregationist?

    He who claims the god of the universe as his real estate agent – he who demands tribal squatter rights from all of humanity and beyond – he who demands an exclusive segregationist squatter state – he who refuses black immigration into his squatter state – he who is the font of tribal hate and war in the ME — snickers and demeans another segregationist? What balls.

    It is true – the Jew has no internal check on what he says – his words are bullets – his goal, nothing short of segregation from humanity.

    Peace — Art

  259. @Dave Pinsen

    I believe the Israelis were called off from the attack before they could finish off the survivors because American aircraft were on the way. If the US hadn’t finally sent “help” the butchering of the crew would have been completed and a brutal attack by “Egyptian forces” or whatever would have been the big story.

  260. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    What does masked mean? Is that a reference to his position on race relations, or is the anti-Semitism masked?

    Is there a stealth anti-Semitism?

    It might not be worth anything to anyone other than myself, but I am coming around to the view that some actors are not “genuine” anti-Semites, but rather for political purposes they allow themselves to become allied with that crowd.

  261. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Fulbright was far cleverer than the garden variety, Mearsheimer and Walt duo being the worthy successors.

    As segregationists go – your squatter Jewish state of Israel was not too nice to those Ethiopian black Jews.

    Apparently in Jew land, race is more important than religion.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. You Jews tell too many lies.

    p.s. You Jews are not very nice when we simple folk point out these prevarications.

  262. fitzGetty says:

    … what was the incident in the Middle East some decades ago where Israel failed to warn the US army of a deadly trap and American troops proceeded to be slaughtered by explosives ? at a hotel ? … ?

  263. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Yes, I did drum it out in haste. Apologies. Look, I happen to think rather not too highly of race segregationists, which is why I am wary of those segregationists, conveniently and emphatically absolved of antisemitism. I suspect given half a turn, and the right circumstances, they’d drop the mask. Segregation mainly targets race/inter-religious mixing which are purely personal choices and I don’t set much stock by appeals to those ideas. I am agnostic on the issue and consider people who agonise over them somewhat dull.

    Again, to be honest, I really do not care all that much if they are, but I am not required to treat their opinions as prima facie honest, without any circumspection.

    On the other thread, (Finkelstein’s), I noticed you agreed with S2C. Without too much hand-wringing over the matter, I take that as you giving a nod to the notion that Jews, in general, are driven by blood lust.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  264. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    I left off the last sentence because it was irrelevant. Why would you characterize that as ‘convenient’, did you suppose that last sentence was somehow cogent?

    here’s the video clip in question

    I can’t speak Hebrew but if anyone can, please translate for us. (Sam is not necessarily considered an objective source in this context. ; )

    but forget for the moment what they said on TV, and just consider that these guys were Israelis who knew what was going down, had their cameras set up, and more to the point, were celebrating and dancing and high-fiving each other at the sight of Americans being horrifically slaughtered.

    [Well, I guess in fairness, 'horrifically' is a subjective term. They might have characterized it as 'Americans being gloriously slaughtered', at least by their actions].

    what kind of ally (or human being) celebrates and dances around as civilian citizens of your country are immolated in a ball of fire?

    eh Sam?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  265. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Segregation mainly targets race/inter-religious mixing which are purely personal choices and I don’t set much stock by appeals to those ideas.

    I’m a little confused, Sam. Are you suggesting that for multicultural countries (i.e., European and European-derived countries), you oppose segregation b/c it’s a personal decision whether or not to mix racially. But for mono cultural countries (i.e., Israel), you favour segregation b/c it no longer is a personal decision?

    On the other thread, (Finkelstein’s), I noticed you agreed with S2C. Without too much hand-wringing over the matter, I take that as you giving a nod to the notion that Jews, in general, are driven by blood lust.

    As you may have inferred from some of my previous postings, I’m a big fan of NF, his opposition to BDS notwithstanding. I’ve even gone to see him speak at a seminar. I respect NF because he is someone who I believe is willing to speak the truth, even if he will be punished for doing so (he was denied tenure by DePaul U b/c Dershowitz influenced the BofT after being humiliated by Finkelstein in a couple of debates). Another thing I like about NF is his meticulous attention to detail. He has a very strong command of the historical facts and he presents his arguments in a very logical manner. With this in mind, I was literally shocked by what he had to say regarding the probable motivation for the attack on the USS Liberty. Now, to be fair to Finkelstein, he did freely admit this his explanation was “highly speculative and unorthodox.” That said, given the rigour of his thought process, I believe what he has to say merits consideration… even if it is based on pure speculation. My 2 cents.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  266. iffen says:
    @Incitatus

    Most concede the attack deliberate. Was it mistaken identity? That’s the question.

    “One of the more controversial events of the 1960s was the Israeli attack on the US Intelligence ship USS Liberty that was conducting intelligence operations off the Sinai coast when she was attacked by Israeli forces. Some of the controversy comes from allegations that the attack was deliberate and that the US colluded in it. In recent years, some of the signals pertaining to this tragedy have been released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty’s track chart and some intercepted Israeli messages. (ref-a)
    The idea of the attack on USS Liberty being deliberate always bothered me because the Israeli Air Force jets were not sent in loaded for sinking a ship (hence why they failed to sink it). They came in with small rockets and napalm bombs – those are ground-attack weapons.

    Stuart Slade has an alternative narrative I find more plausible – far more detailed, and revolving around Israeli incompetence and neglect of procedure

    The story of the attack on the USS Liberty started on June 2, 1967, when she left Rota in Spain for the Middle East. There, in addition to supplies, she had taken on three Marine Corps Arabic translators, augmenting the three NSA Russian-language experts already on board. At the time, she was operating under orders from the US Sixth Fleet to stay “outside an arc whose radius is 240 miles from [the Egyptian city of] Port Said.” This is where the first error of judgement took place. Her handlers in the National Security Agency ignored the order and directed the ship to a point just outside Egypt’s territorial waters, a mere 12.5 miles from Port Said. These orders were recently released by the National Archives and were apparently the result of a perceived need to intercept communications that were un-interceptable from the specified distance. The most significant of these were tactical dialogues between Egyptian officers and their Soviet advisers. At the time it was regarded as being essential to determine the depth of Soviet involvement in the Egyptian military operations (hence the embarkation of the additional translators).

    On hearing of the decision by the NSA handlers, the US Navy sent a total of five subsequent cables from their European headquarters, instructing the USS Liberty to pull back to at least 100 miles. This is where the second glitch came in. Those messages (also released from the National Archives) were misrouted via the Philippines, and none reached the ship in time. In fact, the JCS’ orders would not be received by the Liberty until June 9, by which time they would no longer be relevant. Whether the misrouting was an accident or an NSA effort to keep the ship on the close-in station longer remains unknown but there is strong circumstantial reason to believe that NSA had much to gain by such misrouting. The fact that the signals went via the Philippines is unchallenged; the interesting question is why and how.

    Approaching the Sinai coast at dawn on June 6, the Liberty’s skipper, Commander William L. McGonagle, was deeply concerned by the risk to his ship and requested a destroyer escort, only to be reminded by the commander of the Sixth Fleet that the “Liberty is a clearly marked United States ship in international waters … and not a reasonable subject for attack by any nation.” (National Archives) That’s glitch number three. It should be noted that the naval war was not going well for Israel at this point. The failure of the Israeli navy’s attacks on Egyptian and Syrian ports early in the war did little to assuage Israel’s fears. There was a very real fear in the Israeli command that Arab naval units (that outnumbered the Israeli fleet by 5:1) would launch attacks on the Israeli coast. Consequently, the IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should advise the Israelis of any ships operating in the area. The information provided by the US did not include the Liberty. While this was happening, Israel renewed its request that the United States assign a naval liaison officer to facilitate its communications with the US Navy. Previous to the outbreak of fighting, Israeli Ambassador Avraham Harman had warned the White House that “if war breaks out, we would have no telephone number to call, no code for plane recognition, and no way to get in touch with the U.S. Sixth Fleet.” The United States never approved the appointment of a liaison officer, nor did it inform Israel of the Liberty’s arrival in the area. That’s glitch number four.

    By June 8 the Liberty was patrolling between Port Said and Gaza, in a lane rarely used by commercial freighters and declared by Egypt as off-limits to neutral shipping. The track chart has also been released from the National Archives. It shows the Liberty starting from a position very close to the Egyptian coast and moving out to take up a racetrack pattern track off the Sinai coast. On June 8, just before six o’clock in the morning, an Israeli pilot reported finding a naval craft (“gray, bulky, with its bridge amidships”) 70 miles west of Gaza. Note that Israeli pilots were not trained for maritime attack or recon and, like most pilots, a ship was a ship was a ship. Nevertheless although he did not report seeing a flag, he did make out the hull marking “GTR-5,” which was enough for Israeli commanders to identify the ship as the USS Liberty and to mark it as a neutral vessel on their control board. It’s worth noting that this was a manual plot, not a computerized system as we would use today for the same job. Manual control boards quickly become overloaded with data and have to be cleaned of old information regularly. (Ref b)

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist. Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster. The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    Now the situation began to escalate very quickly. Less than a half-hour later, Israeli soldiers in the Sinai coastal town of El Arish heard a violent explosion. The cause was probably either a detonation in an ammunition dump or an expended munition cooking off. However, these were rear echelon soldiers, freshly recalled reservists and were on edge – which is a polite way of saying panicky. They assumed it was enemy action, artillery fire, and reported it as such. Glitch number six. Now we have the old wildfire scenario. Because the explosion was reported as artillery fire, people began to look for the source – which was unlikely to be on land due to the tactical circumstances. If you look for something hard enough, you’ll find it even if it isn’t there. So, when the Israelis saw a ship off the coast, they assumed it was the source of the artillery fire – a warship doing shore bombardment. Just to make life complex, both Egyptian and Israeli sources had reported shelling of the area by Egyptian warships the previous day. A check with the situation board showed no friendly units or neutral ships in the area so it had to be hostile. Glitch number seven. Again, sloppy, poorly-disciplined officers making assumptions they shouldn’t. Another grievous fault for which they should be hung, drawn and quartered.

    Rabin was seriously concerned that the shelling was a prelude to an amphibious landing that could outflank advancing Israeli troops. Since no fighter planes were available, the navy was asked to intercede, with the assumption that air cover would be provided later. More than half an hour passed without any response from naval headquarters in Haifa. The General Staff finally issued a rebuke: “The coast is being shelled and you – the navy – have done nothing.” Capt. Izzy Rahav in the operations room, needed no more prodding. He dispatched three torpedo boats of the 914th squadron, code-named “Pagoda,” to find the enemy vessel responsible for the bombardment and destroy it. The 914th consisted of three torpedo boats, the Peress, the Tahmass and the Yasoor. These were 60 ton craft built by France in the early 1950s (the last had entered service in 1956). They were armed with two 17.7 inch torpedo tubes, one 40 millimeter gun and four 20 millimeter weapons. They were powered by two Napier deltic diesels for a designed top speed of around 42 knots. By 1967, they were aging and had lost the top edge of their performance; their maximum speed was down to 36 knots in smooth water.

    The commander of those craft, Commander Udi Erell, had rules of engagement that precluded him from engaging any ship doing less than 20 knots – which, in 1967 meant pretty well every merchant ship in the world. However, now we have the mentality of FAC guys coming in. They tend to be young, enthusiastic – and reckless. This commander interpreted “don’t shoot at ships doing less than 20 knots” as “fire on any vessel going faster than 20 knots”. Glitch 8 quickly followed by Glitch 9. FAC skippers don’t really understand how much they get slowed down by even moderate seas when bigger ships don’t. He was doing 35 knots but was only catching the target slowly. Ensign Aharon Yifrah, combat information officer aboard the flagship of these torpedo boats miscalculated their target’s speed as 30 knots, not realizing sea conditions had slowed his real speed to around 25. Again we have the sloppy attitude of the Israeli Armed Forces entering the picture. A properly-kept track chart on the lead FAC would have shown something was not right with the picture. But keeping such charts is part of the administrivia that the Israelis affected to despise. Again, we also have to add in the attitude of the FAC commander. He WANTED that ship to be a legitimate target; the Israeli Navy was being overshadowed by the Army and Air Force and he wanted a victory. So he jumped to a wrong conclusion because that was a conclusion he wanted to jump to. Based on this false presumption, they prepared to attack. Ref – D

    Now we have horrible coincidences joining errors of judgement and technical glitches. The Liberty reached the end of her patrol racetrack and turned onto bearing 238 – putting her course back toward Egypt. The FAC skippers saw this and assumed their target was running for home. Worried they would lose their prey, they reported to the sitrep room that their target was now fleeing for home.

    Israeli naval commanders called up the air force and asked for help from whatever was available. What was available were two Mirages returning from a bombing strike, they were armed only with 30 millimeter cannons and air-to-air missiles and were very short on fuel. Had this been a deliberate attack they would have carried a warload better suited for attacking a ship. Making two passes at 3,000 feet, the formation commander reckoned that the ship was a “Z” or Hunt-class destroyer without the deck markings (a white cross on a red background) of the Israeli navy (which also operated both classes). The command pilot then spoke with air force commander Gen. Motti Hod, who asked him repeatedly whether he could see a flag. They failed to see either flags or markings on the ship. Not surprising, again these were pilots who were not trained for maritime operations and didn’t have any knowledge of naval operations or ship recognition. History is replete with examples of such pilots grotesquely misidentifying ships; although this was an error, it cannot be held against the pilots.

    After two low sweeps by the lead plane, at 1:58 p.m., the Mirages were cleared to attack. For want of anything more potent, they strafed the ship they saw. (by the way, its pure luck – good or ill – that they didn’t shoot up the Israeli FAC – they just hit the first ship they saw). The first salvos caught the Liberty’s crew in “stand-down” mode; several officers were sunning themselves on the deck, unaware of the Israeli jets bearing down on them. Before they could take shelter, rockets and 30-mm cannon shells stitched the ship from bow to stern, severing the antennas and setting oil drums on fire. Nine men were killed in the initial assault, and several times that number wounded, among them McGonagle.

    Minutes later came a second group of planes, Super-Mysteres, equally ill-suited for a naval engagement. They had been diverted from a strike against Egyptian infantry positions and carried napalm (but had been diverted going out, not coming back so had a decent fuel reserve). They dropped their canisters and one set fire to the deck, enshrouding the ship in smoke. The air attacks lasted 14 minutes; by 2:20 the aircraft had finished with their assault.

    It was at this junction that one Israeli pilot finally recognized Latin, not Arabic, letters on the hull. He made a desperate emergency call to the Israeli air controllers causing them to call off the action immediately. Now we have glitch ten. The Israeli communications system in 1967 was basically WW2 equipment that had been overhauled and modernized. It was already overloaded with running a fast-moving mobile war and , thanks to a breakdown in that communications system, the message to the Navy was caught in a backlog of calls waiting to go out. Classic case of too much flow down too small a pipeline. As a result, the order was very long delayed in reaching the navy; it finally made it to the FACs just after 4:00 pm. ref e

    It is at this point that we have a minor mystery. One of the major claims is that the Israelis were jamming US radio frequencies in order to prevent calls from help getting out. If true, this would be powerful evidence to suggest that the attack was deliberate. There are, however, serious problems with this assertion. Firstly, the Liberty was a specialist electronic warfare ship and carried advanced ECCM equipment; it is hard to see how she could have been closed down so comprehensively. Secondly, the Israeli capability in EW at this time was virtually non-existent; neither aircraft nor the torpedo boats carried any ECM equipment. Thirdly, the communications equipment on the Liberty was such that jamming equipment would have to be placed within a series of carefully-defined positions relative to the ship and fourthly, any jamming capable of taking down US Navy communications so comprehensively would have affected a wide area. No such jamming was reported anywhere else by anybody. This leaves only three possible explanations for the alleged jamming (1) The crewmen on Liberty who reported such jamming are lying, (2) the reports that crewmen made such claims are fabricated or (3) whatever happened wasn’t jamming. If we discount (1) we are left with either fabrication or something else. The accusations made against the Israelies feature extensive fabrication so (2) is certainly possible but the most likely explanation is that the Liberty had already been strafed and napalmed with over 800 holes in her. The entire superstructure of the ship, from the main deck to the bridge, was aflame.The “jamming” was probably simply battle damage that had knocked out the ships wave guides and antennas.

    There now followed a lull in the action that lasted for 24 minutes while the Israeli torpedo boats caught up with the Liberty. Think about the geometry of this. They are sailing out to attack a ship offshore that has just turned away from them. That means they are in a tail chase. Now the Liberty was rated at 17.7 knots – lets say she had cranked up her engines and was doing 16. The Israeli FAC are rated at 40 knots – meaning at best the closing speed is 24 knots. However, in any sort of rough sea its unlikely they were doing more than 30 knots and possibly were down to 25. So that gives us a closing speed of (at best) 16 knots and possibly as little as 8. However, at those speeds, the FAC are bouncing all over the place and are throwing up large clouds of spray. The vibration is intense and the noise is deafening. Incidently, these are not the modern 200 – 400 ton, 56-meter missile craft, they are 70 foot MTBs, 10 feet shorter than a US WW2 PT boat (albeit somewhat heavier that the 35 – 45 ton PT boats). Ref f

    Now its reasonable to assume the Liberty had her stern to the FAC. Think about this. The Flag is at the stern, the ship is heading away from the FAC that are chasing her from astern. That means they are seeing the Flag (if they see it at all) edge-on from the rear. Their only hope of recognizing it is if it flutters from side to side. So to state the Israelies must have seen the Flag, we have to ask the two guys on the bridge to recognize a fluttering flag edge-on from a range of 4 to 8 miles from a 60 ton speedboat bouncing around in a cloud of spray while being shaken to pieces by two 4,000 shaft horsepower diesels running flat out. Now add in that the Liberty had been hit by a tank of napalm and was burning – in other words there were clouds of black smoke around her making visibility intermittant. Suddenly, it doesn’t seem so easy does it? ref g

    At this point the Israeli flagship signaled “AA” – “identify yourself.” Due to damaged equipment, McGonagle could only reply in kind, AA, with a hand-held Aldis lamp. Now we have a weird coincidence – Udi Erell’s father had been in command of a 1956 operation where the Israeli Navy had captured the Egyptian destroyer Ibrahim al-Awwal. This ship had tried to pose as a neutral ship when the israeli force closed in and had also replied to the interrogatory AA by responding with a repeat AA. There is little doubt Udi Erell was familiar with that story as family history and was sure that he now faced an enemy ship.

    Now we have another glitch, number 11. One of the American sailors on board, disregarded Captain McGonagle’s order not to fire on the approaching craft, and opened up with a deck gun. (ref h) Another machinegun opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition. Erell repeatedly requested permission from naval headquarters to return fire. Rahav finally approved.

    The Israeli FAC skipper also jumped to the assumption that the ship in front of him was Egyptian (Glitch 12), consulted his intelligence manual, identified it as the Egyptian naval freighter El Quseir, This identification has been criticised on grounds that the El Quseir was smaller than the Liberty and lacked her distinctive antennas. In reality, the El Quseir was laid up in Alexandria and its asserted (without proof) that “the Israelies must have known that”. Its also pointed out (quite correctly) that the Israeli FAC had a copy of JFS on board. Consulting a copy of the relevent edition of that publication, it does indeed list both Liberty and El Quseir – but includes photographs of neither. Rather pathetically, those who dispute the identification point out that the El Quseir was painted silver rather than the Liberty’s Haze Gray. In reality, under the circumstances prevailing, telling the difference between dirty silver and shiny gray is very hard – especially since both would have taken on a blue tinge by reflection from the surrounding sea and sky. However, all thats irrelevent since we now have Glitch 13 – he wasn’t trying to find out “which ship is this” he was looking for “which Egyptian Ship looks most like the one in front of me”

    The FAC commander elected to fire torpedoes. Now lets look at those torpedoes. They are not modern 21 inch jobs. The FAC in question were armed with World War Two ex-Italian 17.7 inch torpedoes. These had a 440 pound warhead and had a speed of 30 knots to 8,000 meters (ref i) . Distinctly lacking in range speed and striking power. Also unguided; there is no way a torpedo like that is aimed at any specific part of the ship. At 2:45 the Israeli FAC fired five torpedoes at a range of 6,000 meters for a single hit at around 2:50. This killed 25 men almost all of them from the intelligence section.

    The torpedo boats then closed in and from 3:00 onwards circled the ship, from the stern spraying it with 20 millimeter and 40 millimeter gunfire. When they reached the bows, the captain of one boat saw “GTR-5″ on the hull. He immediately halted fire, extended help to the Liberty, and called for rescue helicopters. For the first time in the whole stupid story somebody did something right. Two Israeli Helicopters reached the Liberty and offered assistance. Erell, shouting through a bullhorn, also tried to communicate with the ship but Captain McGonagle refused to respond. Realizing, finally, that his assailants had been Israeli, he flagged the torpedo boats away and made a gesture that the Israelies describe as “obscene, but under the circumstances, understandable”. By 5:05 p.m., the Israelis had broken off contact, and the Liberty, navigating virtually without systems, with 34 dead and 171 wounded aboard, staggered out to sea.

    I must make it quite clear that I do not condone the Israeli conduct in this affair; their performance was lacking even the earliest signs of competance and their professional negligence was profoundly culpable. They screwed up royally and deserve all the blame that can be ladled over their brainless heads. But they didn’t do it deliberately. 13 bad mistakes, errors of judgement and horrible coincidences. Its right to be enraged with the Israelis for their sloppy staffwork, lax procedures and inattention to detail caused them to launch an attack against a neutral ship. It is indeed with them that the ultimate blame lies for it is the Israeli disregard for careful procedure and their deliberate neglect of proper administration that caused the disaster. Their arrogant assumption that they alone had the secret of how to run a modern war and nobody else knew any part of it was largely to blame for the tragedy. Martin Van Creveld describes the Israeli attitude to proper procedure and to administrative advice as being arrogant bordering on boorish and frequently deliberately bullying, rude and offensive. (ref j) The US Navy also has some share of the blame for there should have been a liaison officer to provide a direct point of contact. Even after she was hit, the Americans had difficulty locating the Liberty, the JCS placing it at “60-100 miles north of Egypt.” If neither the US Navy nor even the President of the United States could know where the Liberty was, it seems unreasonable to expect that the Israelis, in the thick of battle, should have been able to locate it. The NSA must carry its share for keeping the ship dangerously close to the enemy coast and ignoring navy advice.

    A year later the destroyer Eilat was sunk by the same combination of blundering incompetence, stupidity and arrogance (three Egyptian missiles had something to do with it as well). (ref k) . Indeed, for those investigating the attack on Liberty, the command disasters involved in the sinking of the Eilat should be required reading. The same factors of boorish arrogance, incompetence, inadequate command control, defective equipment and long-delayed communications make their miserable appearnace.

    Six years after the Liberty incident, another Israeli Navy warship, the Miznak went into action. She was on her way to assist Hanit that had run aground on a sandbar off the Sinai coast. The captain (Captain Barkai) gave orders for the Miznak to keep out of a 45 kilometer circle around Port Said due to the danger of missile attack. He then went to his cabin and slept. The second in command (Udi Erell) was duty officer in the CIC. He was dozing in the CIC Ops Chair when he was struck by the silence in room. The Ops crew were asleep. Worse, the Miznak was heading on a straight line for Port said and was already well within the 45 kilometer danger zone. EW was off, the radar watch was asleep, helm was asleep. And the instruments were telling the crew that Egyptian missile craft were coming out of port. Commander Erell literally kicked the CIC crew into wakefulness as Captain Moshe Tabak, the group commander sent an in-clear radio warning of an impending attack (in clear because Miznak had not responded to coded radio signals – cypher room was asleep as well). Udi Erell slammed the throttles forward personally and swung the boat through 180 degrees. As he did so he saw the launch signature of P-15 missiles on the horizon. Four P-15s had been fired by two Project 183R (Komar) FAC-M and were already on their way. One went into the sea when its gyros tumbled, a second went into the sea far astern, the third overshot and landed in the sea three miles ahead of Miznak and the fourth exploded in the sea 100 meters aft of Miznak. (ref l)

    Why is this incident so significant? Note the name of the operations officer on Mizhak – Udi Erell. In 1967 he had commanded a squadron of three FAC. Six years later, in 1973, he had been demoted to the ops officer of one such craft. Yet Udi Erell is the son of Shlomo Erell, the Chief of Staff of the Israeli Navy. Despite being VIP’s son, the Israeli Navy really busted Udi Erell’s chops. If it was a conspiracy they’d have found somebody else less well-connected to be the scapegoat.

    References:

    Ref a – Documents relating to the Liberty incident – papers released from the National Archives. This includes the Liberty track chart, transcripts of the Liberty signal log, intercepts of Israeli signals and statements by crew and captain. In short, the bulk of the declassified US official documentation.

    Ref b The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. This places great stress on the total obsolescence of the Israeli C3I system and the very poor command structure of the Israeli armed forces.

    Ref c Information from the Israeli side taken from evidence given at enquiries on the Liberty attack.

    Ref d Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch details the Israeli Navy;s appalling discipline and sloppy incompetance. The comments are all the more devastating because the author doesn’t realize the impact of the matters he’s relating.

    ref f Again, The Sword and The Olive details the hopelessly bad command structure of the Israeli Armed Forces.

    Ref f Janes Fighting Ships 1966 – 67. 3 of Israel’s FAC were old RN boats built in 1942, six were French built in 1950 and the most modern were three built in Italy in 1956

    ref g This is a point anybody with a speedboat can check for themselves.

    ref h Captain McGonagle’s statement to the Liberty Enquiry. National Archives.

    ref i Bagnasco Submarines of WW2 for details of these torpedoes.

    Ref j The Sword and the Olive by Martin van Creveld. It should be noted that four of Van Creveld’s sons have served in the IDF.

    ref k Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch The sheer incompetence surrounding the sinking of the Eilat is breathtaking – but another story. I believe that a US or UK skipper losing his ship in such a manner would be charged with manslaughter.

    Ref l Boats of Cherbourg by Abraham Rabinovitch (again). The Miznak story defies belief. Its impossible to conceive of any professional navy (or most amateur ones) behaving in such a manner. The story is given veracity by Rabinovitchs treatment of the events – his cast being it showed how hard the Israeli Navy was fighting. Van Creveld shows in The Sword and the Olive that even by 1973, the basic problems with the IDF command structure had not been fixed.”

  267. geokat62 says:

    What a wonderfully crafted tale. It kind of reminded me of the Lemeny Snicket series, A Series of Unfortunate Events. You know the one with 13 books, each with 13 chapters?

    I say that b/c this creative tale happens to have 13 glitches, the most entertaining of which is glitch #5 :

    Glitch number five and a biggie. This is the one that was the proximate cause of the disaster.

    At eleven o’clock in the morning, the watch at Israeli naval headquarters changed. The new officers, following procedures for removing old information and assuming the Liberty had sailed away, cleaned the board. For Israeli forces, the Liberty had ceased to exist… The Israeli officers here were culpably negligent in that they should have made sure a known US warship was out of the conflict area, not just assumed it was so. Unfortunately, the Israelis back then made a big thing out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines employed by more established armed forces. In fact, they derided such practices as being typical of hidebound reactionaries; the Israeli Military Forces didn’t need all that nonsense about correct procedure. That attitude doomed Liberty.

    This crew change scene conjures up the image of the popular Looney Tunes cartoon of Ralph E. Wolf and Sam Sheepdog clocking in at the beginning/end of their shift.

    First, we are told that the new officers who are following procedures manually cleaned the board so as to remove the unnecessary clutter of things like the position of sea vessels off the coast of eastern Mediterranean. Then, we are told that they removed the Liberty without confirming it had left the conflict area, because they simply assumed it had done so “out of their contempt for the routines, practices and doctrines.”

    So which is it? Do the officers diligently follow procedures or don’t they? This facile explanation seems to want to have it both ways.

  268. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    We’ve been over this Rurik. That video clip you posted is a laughable ham-job. Nothing can be heard over the ridiculous voice-over, and knowing Hebrew won’t matter. If I am not a reliable source in this context, you are not one either.

    http://www.unz.com/freed/legion-of-the-tinfoil-hat/#comment-1575017

    Follow that thread again.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  269. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Show me one post where I have advocated for segregation in Israel. Show it to me!!!

    Moreover, whether I do or do not is immaterial, since in Israel anyone can live anywhere, exactly as they do in practice. And I am not talking about the WB, where I have clearly expressed my position, so no need to launch into another “but this is what you do in Israel” meme.

    I did not ask you to elaborate on your respect for NF. I merely noted your unmistakeable position on the blood lust matter. As I said, I can decide for myself the sincerity of loudly proclaimed high-mindedness and the rest of the bollocks.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  270. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hi Iffen,

    Many thanks for this post. I plan to read it very carefully tomorrow as it will require my full attention. On your previous comment re: masked antisemitism, I think I am in agreement with you and I must say your conjecture makes a great deal of sense.

    Best

    • Replies: @iffen
  271. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Show me one post where I have advocated for segregation in Israel. Show it to me!!!

    You do realize how peculiar that sounds, don’t you, Sam?

    Isn’t Zionism by definition segregationist? And haven’t you repeatedly indicated you’re a self-declared Zionist? Doesn’t it, therefore, follow that you’re a segregationist?

    LOGIC WAS not given to the People of Israel on Mount Sinai, but handed down from Mount Olympus to the ancient Greeks. – Uri Avnery

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Sam Shama
  272. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I copied that from a comment that was posted here at planet Germania last year when the USS Liberty merry-go-round was in play. I regret that I did not record the handle of the original commenter.

    I should have read more of the comments and your meaning of masked would have been clear to me.

    My interest has been piqued by your comment on race and religious segregation. Can you give us some indication of the extent of your feelings and thoughts on the subject? What is your attitude toward the Amish? Do you shun fellow Jews who insist upon endogamy? You say it is a purely personal choice but surely you see that the crucial ramifications play out in the relations between and among groups. We have many ethnic, racial and religious groups that are maintained by segregation. Are you saying that you want all distinctions to disappear? Saying that you do not think highly of segregationists but are agnostic on the mechanism seems contradictory to me.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  273. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    What I realise is that you could not point to one instance of my advocating segregation. Therefore you resort to the familiar meme I was quite expecting. Amuse me, and tell me something new.

    I don’t believe you are moved one bit by any conditions, real or imagined, faced by Palestinians. How many Palestinians do you know personally? You, like a handful of others I’ve run across, have the one common motivator: Jew hatred. Cloaked in euphemisms, anti-Zionism being the latest version. Which is fine, since there is simply nothing in your hollow set of beliefs to cause harm to Jews. Humanity is much greater than lonely crypto-fascism, as has been demonstrated time and again in history. This too shall pass and children of Judea shall prevail. :-)

    Anything else? Oh yes, Avnery the helpful Jew gets trotted out when other options narrow. It’s remarkable how you chaps always need the Jew to make a point, however tenuous!

    Zionism. Why don’t you ask your favourite Jew NF what it means. He’s a Zionist.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Art
  274. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    You, like a handful of others I’ve run across, have the one common motivator: Jew hatred.

    So, Sam. Rather than trying to refute my arguments, you have finally decided to take the easy way out, by succumbing to the temptation of using the H-bomb against me, by pinning on me not the more common epithet of “antisemite,” but the more dramatic “Jew hater.” I must say it is very disappointing to see you stoop to that level. I thought you were a bigger man than that, but I was sadly mistaken.

    Perhaps your motivation for doing so was based on my reaction to one other commenter who leveled this same nasty charge against me (about my being capable of donning rubber boots so as not to get any blood on myself) and my refusing to engage with them in any future exchanges? Had you been a bigger man, Sam, you could have simply placed me on your Commenters To Ignore list, and be done with me.

    But, not to worry. I will continue to post my comments here at UR about the nefarious activities (both domestic and foreign) of The Lobby, as I’m confident they will continue apace… and I will do so until the Night Flower has been completely exposed to sunlight or until I die, whichever comes first. And I will do so with not an ounce of hatred in my spirit as, if you were an honest man, you would readily admit.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Sam Shama
    , @L.K
    , @iffen
  275. Incitatus says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hi Sam,

    Sorry to be so late, especially after your interesting post.

    Pilot and squadron leader transcripts make sense. Imagine the SL burdened with responsibility to eliminate doubtful entities. Did he imagine what could happen if Liberty was an enemy under a false flag and decide he couldn’t take the chance? After the decision there was no turning back – and the Israeli navy was drawn in.

    Don’t believe it was a deliberate attack on a US vessel. False flag theories of drawing the US into war against Egypt, and LBJ or McNamara preplanning are nonsense (my opinion). As are Finkelstein’s claims of nefarious Israeli malice against ‘goys’ and the like.

    Bamford (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/aug/08/israel) is creditable, but not sure wholly I agree with his take. Doubt if Israel worried about El Arish. They may have been concerned about war plan intelligence, but more as an unknown that could endanger success? The ethos of war is a pragmatic elimination of all threats. Threats include anything outside direct control. Especially as combat and the fog of war take a life of their own.

    LBJ and McNamara deserve scrutiny. The US military in ‘67 – especially flag rank – is not above criticism. Most accounts feature miscommunication, misinformation or underestimation of the danger. Possible US spy agency involvement adds still more complexity. Perhaps key in the cover up?

    Israeli exoneration of all involved and lack of reprimand is troubling, as is the honoring of MTB 203 in a museum. But not inexplicable. Every nation needs heroes, and the US certainly enshrines many with imperfect histories.

    Bottom line, we’re all guessing. Like to see the files released.

    Best

    • Replies: @Eagle Eye
  276. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    knowing Hebrew won’t matter

    aren’t they speaking Hebrew?!

    perhaps that’s not the best video, but surly what these men said on camera can be translated.

    as for the link, what was it that was said that you consider salient Sam?

  277. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    My interest has been piqued by your comment on race and religious segregation. Can you give us some indication of the extent of your feelings and thoughts on the subject? What is your attitude toward the Amish? Do you shun fellow Jews who insist upon endogamy? You say it is a purely personal choice but surely you see that the crucial ramifications play out in the relations between and among groups. We have many ethnic, racial and religious groups that are maintained by segregation. Are you saying that you want all distinctions to disappear? Saying that you do not think highly of segregationists but are agnostic on the mechanism seems contradictory to me.

    Hi Iffen,
    My feelings on the subject are straightforward. To each his own. Choose where you wish to dwell, raise your progeny, carry on the business of life. That ethnic clustering occurs is well understood, no great mystery there.

    What I cannot support is institutional segregation. The state may not codify it. It is that simple. Thus my attitude towards the Amish is one of perfect harmony. Likewise ultra-religious Jews. They live in worlds of their own creation, follow communal rules of their own making and harm none. If any of their behaviour clashes with the secular law, they should be held to rectify it.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @iffen
  278. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    And I will do so with not an ounce of hatred in my spirit as, if you were an honest man, you would readily admit.

    don’t worry Geo, the rest of us see what’s glaringly obvious

    for a Zionist like Sam to have the rancid nads to presume to point the finger at ‘segregationists’ is the height of hubris and megalomania and hypocrisy on acid. The rationalization is that the goyim are slated for blending while simultaneously Jews must keep their blood pure, and ‘chosen’, huh Sam?

    when Sam accuses you Geo, of Jew hatred, I can’t help but think of this cartoon

    they suffer this pathological delusion that they’re better than the rest of us, and that when we object to the corruption of our governments and institutions, the myriad and catastrophic wars they engage us all in, the serial financial swindles and the moral and spiritual sewage they force our children to swim in…

    and other stuff they do, like in Palestine and how they’ve been menacing Iran for so long, not to mention how they (the Mossad) used SAVAK to terrorize Iranians for so long, and all of it, all of it are things that we stupid goyim are supposed to just accept as part of our cow-like existence- that their hate-god put us all here for.

    and if we object to any of these things that yes, Jews are doing. (it isn’t Armenians that are forcing us into all these wars), then they screech ‘anti-Semite!!!!’, in the vain and pathetic hope that that will some how cow you into silence.

    but those days are long gone, and we can all see by reading these comments and exchanges just who the hate-consumed liars and genocidal creeps really are. ;)

    • Agree: geokat62
  279. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Truth and honesty, yes, indeed.

    I think I shall allow myself to paraphrase Chesterton when he observed: Truth is sacred and if you claim all too often that you are in possession of it, or that you tell it always, nobody will believe it.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  280. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    institutional segregation. The state may not codify it

    I happen to agree with this, but the problem today isn’t state codified segregation, but state codified integration (of white lands only)

    whereas in Israel, we have not just state codified segregation, but state codified terrorism of the indigenous population in an obvious attempt to make their lives so miserable that they’ll just leave en masse- the land to the sole ownership of Jews.

    and that sickening reality and double standard is what is pushing the world to the brink.

    and what is entirely untenable are the myriad liars and apologists who presume and pretend that Israel has any legitimacy in a modern day world with the Rule of Law; considering its racist policies of ethnic cleansing and land theft, while at the same time these duplicitous and arrogant Zionists (like Shmuley Boteach / is that your real name Sam?) presume to lecture the rest of the world on their reluctance to blend with Somalis and Mexicans and Haitians- and everyone else- into one big happy goyim hate-fest.

    such rank and rancid hypocrisy ought to be laughed off the stage, at best

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  281. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    What rambling, cringeworthy emissions you produce; no better compendium exists which any fifth form pupil might laughingly refer to, to witness the making of pastiche from a boor convinced of his own mastery.

    You should know, oafish White supremacists of your ilk are but an extreme fringe. You are insignificant and your rants are no more effective than the dachshund humping a table leg [thanks for the image, Incitatus :) ! ]. Why, even here at the UR, known for admitting the wildest of specimens, you find yourself tossed out on your fundaments by Anatoly Karlin!

    Into the CTI box, you go.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  282. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Truth and honesty, yes, indeed.

    There is no greater political truth than that The Night Flower is doing tremendous damage to the interests of the American people… and it will continue to do so until it is exposed to the light of day.

  283. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    poor widdle Sammy

    a Zionist with the rancid nads to call others ‘supremacists’

    heh he

  284. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    I don’t believe you are moved one bit by any conditions, real or imagined, faced by Palestinians. How many Palestinians do you know personally? You, like a handful of others I’ve run across, have the one common motivator: Jew hatred.

    Oh my – the Jew is getting desperate – anti-Semite is no longer doing the job – people are not cowering – the false charge “anti-Semite” is washing over us like water on a duck’s back. It is just a matter of time before “Jew hate” follows.

    You demean us with your imprudent words that say “we do not care about the Palestinians.” Make no mistake Jew – our sympathy for them is real. The full story of your diabolical cruelty will be reviled and known by all.

    But there is more. Our fate is tied to their fate. Our blood and treasure flows with theirs. Your coercion of the Palestinians means ME wars for us. Those are the facts. This too will be reviled and known by all.

    As to hate. We philosophical Christians “hate the sin – not the sinner.” We will not seek an “eye for an eye” like you Jews do. We are better, nicer, kinder people. Your problem is that we do not rule the world.

    Peace — Art

  285. Skeptikal says:
    @Anonymous

    Huh. That is similar to the USA paying Israel to aid in the settlement of Russian Jews in Israhell.
    The USA just keeps paying paying paying.

  286. Eagle Eye says:
    @iffen

    Very careful exposition that seems internally consistent and in line with parameters of human nature in an organizational (military) environment.

    Only point so far that I find doubtful:

    Another machinegun [on the USS Liberty] opened fire by itself when fired cooked off its ready-use ammunition.

    This sounds more like a convenient fiction, perhaps to avoid a witch hunt for a (well-connected?) second trigger-happy sailor.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Hibernian
  287. Eagle Eye says:
    @Incitatus

    Possible US spy agency involvement adds still more complexity. Perhaps key in the cover up?

    Perhaps the NSA at some level was moonlighting for the Egyptians and Arabs after all?

    Stranger things have been known to happen.

  288. Incitatus says:

    “Perhaps the NSA at some level was moonlighting for the Egyptians…”

    Wouldn’t be too surprising if they wanted to play both sides against each other. A less decisive outcome to assure both remained dependent superpower proxies. ‘In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king’ (apologies to Erasmus).

  289. Eagle Eye says:
    @Miro23

    Irgun and Haganah terrorists, disguised as Arabs, set off seven large demolition bombs in the basement of the King David Hotel, which was the base for the British Secretariat and the military command in British-occupied Palestine.

    That’s not what a “false flag operation” is. A false flag operation is an operation that is made to still appear after the fact as if it had been perpetrated by another party. Here, it would have been obvious to the British that the attack had been perpetrated by Irgun, not by any Arab group. The disguise as Arabs was only a temporary expedient to get past security, precisely because the British distrusted Jews. The second the explosion happened, the British will have realized that it was an Irgun/Haganah operation.

    The earlier “Lavon Affair” was a genuine false flag operation – bombings in Egypt were made to look as if they had been perpetrated by Muslim fundamentalists.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  290. Miro23 says:
    @Eagle Eye

    I would agree with that.

  291. @Mr. Anon

    Imagine if we made a movie about what really happened before and during 9-11.

  292. Mr. Anon says:
    @RobinG

    “USS Liberty: Dead In The Water” (BBC Documentary 2002)

    That’s nice and all – a documentary on British TV (which probably almost nobody in America ever saw) – but I would have expected at least a made-for-TV movie on American TV.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  293. iffen says:
    @Eagle Eye

    This sounds more like a convenient fiction, perhaps to avoid a witch hunt

    Possibly, I don’t have a clue. I am sure there are people with the knowledge and expertise that could say whether this is reasonable or not.

    Taken as a whole the narrative explains almost everything in a rational manner.

  294. RobinG says:
    @Mr. Anon

    “….. I would have expected at least a made-for-TV movie on American TV.”

    Why would you expect an American movie about USS Liberty? Cover up was wanted by both the US (state and Deep State) and Israel, so therefore by New York and Hollywood.

    Was the 50th anniversary even mentioned in the MSM? There certainly were no press in Arlington at the memorial service.

    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    , @Rurik
    , @iffen
  295. @RobinG

    The only press present was from the Spanish media and, unlike last year, there was no one present representing the Office of Naval Operations. Last year there was a rear admiral and her staff representing the Pentagon…

  296. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Choose where you wish to dwell, raise your progeny, carry on the business of life. That ethnic clustering occurs is well understood, no great mystery there.

    What I cannot support is institutional segregation. The state may not codify it. It is that simple.

    I wish to disagree and do not think that people who concern themselves with the subject are “dull.”

    The range of actions and behaviors in the enforcement of segregation and endogamy is a continuum that ranges from no support at all to execution for violation. The use of the coercive power of the state on behalf one group or another is just a detail, although I will allow that it is a prominent detail. Further, in that most political decisions are made to favor one group over another, whether one supports the use of the state’s coercive power in the matter mostly depends upon one’s group membership.

    Americans of Jewish origin played an important role in the ending of de jure segregation, if, in fact, there is a Jew-matrix, it is reasonable to assume that those changes benefited groups with strong endogamous behaviors not reliant upon state coercion.

    You will recall that one of the complaints from PG in his article on Elliot Abrams was the fact that Abrams is an open supporter of Jewish endogamy. As you point out, people cluster. Most people utilize in-group identifications when choosing partners and try to get their children to do the same. We Murcians do this and we all know that we do it, but you cannot expressly state it publically unless one is a member of a “protected and favored” group. The prohibition against publically stating the desire for endogamy by a person in a non-protected group is likely in the original ten commandments of PC culture.

    Anyway, as usual it comes down to jealousy. Jews have been maintaining an identity for some time and that success is envied by groups that are not as adept at maintaining a group identity or do not have a well defined identity.

    To say that you do not support codification of segregation is not a virtue; it is a partisan political choice.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  297. Rurik says:
    @RobinG

    Was the 50th anniversary even mentioned in the MSM? There certainly were no press in Arlington at the memorial service.

    this quote, like L.K.s musings if 9/11 was going to be this generation’s USS Liberty, is very powerful.

    will the victims (in both cases) be forgotten / mocked so that the rest of us can avoid controversy?

    one thing that is absolutely certain beyond any doubt whatsoever- is that as they got away with the USS Liberty so easily, it surely emboldened them (Zionists from the same government and for the same reasons) for their 9/11 stunt.

    and as sure as I’m sitting here.. as they got away with the USS Liberty, and then 9/11, and see 9/11 unfold exactly as they wanted it to, with their neighbors utterly destroyed by the bovine, USA! drooling golem, *they will do it again*.

    the only way to prevent these creeps from perpetrating yet another murderous, cowardly and treacherous false flag attack- is to hold them accountable for the last one.

    Thank you Mr. Giraldi for writing this article.

  298. iffen says:
    @iffen

    To restate this:

    Senator Fulbright is rebuked in a public forum for being a defender of racial segregation. Elliot Abrams is allowed to advocate without penalty in a public forum for Jewish endogamy. Jewish endogamy and advocacy of racial separation are two sides of the same coin.

  299. iffen says:
    @RobinG

    Was the 50th anniversary even mentioned in the MSM?

    Maybe it is nothing nefarious, just bad timing. It conflicts with the 50th anniversary of the Loving decision.

    • LOL: L.K
  300. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    I wish to disagree and do not think that people who concern themselves with the subject are “dull.”

    Certainly. To each his own, as I stated.

    ranges from no support at all to execution for violation.

    Execution for exogamy codified by the state? Can’t think of any countries. Perhaps in very primitive cultural pockets in Africa/Asia?

    Further, in that most political decisions are made to favor one group over another, whether one supports the use of the state’s coercive power in the matter mostly depends upon one’s group membership.

    Well, I’d agree with qualifications. Special interest groups in very large democracies can and do steer policy, but I’d argue these to be no more detrimental to society than religious and other factions of the past influencing the Sovereign. It is an extension of the individual striving to gain more economic resources. The reason why we cannot have equity (outcomes), although we may craft the system to provide equality of opportunity.

    Americans of Jewish origin played an important role in the ending of de jure segregation, if, in fact, there is a Jew-matrix, it is reasonable to assume that those changes benefited groups with strong endogamous behaviors not reliant upon state coercion.

    Yes, Jews were instrumental in that regard. On the endogamous behaviour aspect, I’d qualify the statement. Religious Jews are strongly endogamous. Secular Jews, not so much at all.

    http://www.pewforum.org/2013/10/01/jewish-american-beliefs-attitudes-culture-survey/

    Look at the intermarriage section, about halfway through. 79% of married Jews of no religion have a spouse who is not Jewish, compared with 36% among Jews by religion.

    You will recall that one of the complaints from PG in his article on Elliot Abrams was the fact that Abrams is an open supporter of Jewish endogamy.

    Abrams is free to advise according to his preferences, yet his advocacy has had an exiguous effect on group behaviour.

    ….but you cannot expressly state it publically unless one is a member of a “protected and favored” group.

    Let’s rephrase it concretely. A white person feels uncomfortable to state that they’d prefer to marry white? I think stating it is irrelevant, as marriage stats reveal preferences beyond any doubt. Most religious Jews would state unperturbed their preferences (which in fact would exclude secular Jews as well). Ditto the Amish. But I think the essentials for secular Christians and secular Jews, their relatively open approach on the matter, derives from a place of intellectual security: Mankind has been mixing much farther back than mere external markers or certainly religion; an undeniable log of events etched on our genome.

    The prohibition against publically stating the desire for endogamy by a person in a non-protected group is likely in the original ten commandments of PC culture.

    Most PC as practised today, particularly on campuses, is a source of humour for me. Where is it written certain groups may not state their endogamous preferences? Again, I feel secular people do not state it simply because they choose not to.

    Anyway, as usual it comes down to jealousy. Jews have been maintaining an identity for some time and that success is envied by groups that are not as adept at maintaining a group identity or do not have a well defined identity.

    You may be right on the jealousy aspect. A great deal of ink/pixels devoted (on these pages) to belabour lofty principles behind the euphemistic “anti-Zionism,” but one sees through it so easily. Do Jews have a better-defined identity than Italian Catholics? Wasps? Debatable.

    To say that you do not support codification of segregation is not a virtue; it is a partisan political choice.

    I do not see it as a sin either. If it happens to empathise with a political platform, it is so as a consequence of shared knowledge I spoke of earlier.

    Best

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
    , @Art
  301. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Where is it written certain groups may not state their endogamous preferences? Again, I feel secular people do not state it simply because they choose not to.

    This is nonsense, Sam.

    Any white person who publically states that they are against inter-racial marriage is finished as a public figure.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  302. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Execution for exogamy codified by the state? Can’t think of any countries. Perhaps in very primitive cultural pockets in Africa/Asia?

    No. Creation and maintenance of group identity. Endogamy is just one facet. Yes, people get killed every day for mating outside their group. Sometimes there are mass killings. They go by names like ethnic, sectarian, religious, etc. conflict.

    A white person feels uncomfortable to state that they’d prefer to marry white? I think stating it is irrelevant

    As I said, pure BS.

    Do Jews have a better-defined identity than Italian Catholics? Wasps? Debatable.

    Maybe this is the debate that we should be having.

  303. Remember the trial of Scott Peterson for the murder of his wife Laci and their unborn baby? It was probably the most publicized criminal trial since O.J. Simpson.

    When searching for internet MSM stories on the USS Liberty, I found a piece from the Modesto Bee. It turns out Laci’s stepfather, Ron Grantski, was a crewmen on the ship. Grantski is adamant the Liberty was deliberately attacked by the Israelis.

    Google “USS Liberty, Ron Grantski.”

    • Replies: @iffen
  304. iffen says:
    @David In TN

    Grantski is adamant the Liberty was deliberately attacked by the Israelis.

    This is framing with a loaded term to induce particular emotions and thoughts, whether by PG or any other participant or observer.

    Deliberate is not in question. No one is claiming that on a routine flight to nowhere in particular, the bomb bay doors on an Israeli plane accidentally opened, the bombs accidentally fell from the plane and in a freak occurence hit the USS Liberty.

  305. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Any white person who publically states that they are against inter-racial marriage is finished as a public figure.

    Very likely true. Yet we are not talking about public figures, but the revealed preferences of groups. Also, I am not aware of any Black public figure stating that publicly either. I could be wrong.

  306. Hibernian says:
    @Eagle Eye

    “Only point so far that I find doubtful:…”

    Talk about blaming the victim.

  307. Hibernian says:
    @iffen

    Disobedience to orders and cowardice are very serious offenses and forced to choose between them one might choose the one that gave the best chance of survival. Or, in the fog of war, he may not have heard the order.

    Your contempt for American enlisted men shows through clearly.

    • Replies: @iffen
  308. iffen says:
    @Hibernian

    Your contempt for American enlisted men shows

    I was an American enlisted man and proud of it to this day, so stick it up your a** sideways.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Hibernian
  309. L.K says:
    @geokat62

    Geokat,

    We have our differences, but I gotta tell you that I often follow your exchanges with the zionist rat, sham the shameless, and it never disappoints!

    This has never been truer than in your latest exchange, as you skillfully destroyed and humiliated Sham with irrefutable facts…

    As you repeatedly cornered the lying little rat & exposed him, you put a smile on my face.
    :-)
    I shall save this stuff!

  310. L.K says:
    @iffen

    village Idiot, ‘iffen’: ‘I was an American enlisted man and proud of it’

    pffffhahabuHAHAHAHA

    Always unintentionally funny!!

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  311. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    It occurs to me, perhaps a fuller treatment of this post is required. Primarily for your benefit, since you appear so doggedly and, may I say, with your all too familiar habit of quietly side-stepping questions I ask very specifically, skulking on to relatively irrelevant sub-points, all ending with a grand statement which to none but the dimmest of wits appear cogent. You are not the dimwit certainly, far from it, but there is an infestation of reptiles which, by natural design are dimwitted creatures.

    Since we are discussing a premise strictly legal in nature, state codified segregation, it is important to know the laws of the state under question. You do not. I do. The body of laws in Israel are secular, not halachic, and do not even in the minutest extent promote segregation. Arab citizens live with Jewish citizens wherever they wish. Arabs are 20% of the population and are full beneficiaries of the same rights a Jewish citizen enjoys, and then some in recognition of their minority status. There are prominent Arabs in significant spheres of the polity. Abdel Zuabi, Salim Joubran, etc. Do look them up. Not to mention the United List which gives full representation to Arabs in the Knesset.

    The Zionist state is not segregationist. Not by legal design, nor quod existit in terra. Understand this. Carefully. It aims to preserve a Jewish majority but does not segregate the minority. Thus your failure stems from illogic, and more importantly, confusing and conflating segregation with your pet peeves, and need one mention again, ignorance of the law.

    Palestinians are not Israeli citizens. The charter of Hamas and the received doctrine of the Pal leadership leaves no doubt: to wipe out the Jewish state or deluge it ethnically with the RoR. Both unacceptable to the state.

    This post I felt important, not merely to score any debating points but as an aid to those who would allow themselves the liberty to grandstand with little basis in fact or law.

    P.S. I repeat, show me where I have advocated for segregation and if you fail to show it, I’ll know the size of the “bigger man”

    P.P.S Do you support segregation?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @geokat62
  312. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Zionism is a nationalism.

    A nation can practice segregation or not, de jure or de facto, and the degree and intensity of the segregation can vary from one extreme to the other.

    Exclusion from full citizenship in a nation is a facet of segregation. What else would it be?

  313. Sam Shama says:

    Zionism is Nationalism, I agree, and I have nothing against Nationalism. Of the sane variety. There are minorities in every state and segregating them is not a practical idea. You’d be required to create thousands of new states, globally. Is that the goal? Far better in all regards for a state to keep its minorities at manageable levels (I hazard a guess, up to 20% is optimal) and encourage them to embrace the secular/scientific objectives of the modern nation. Not encourage excessive and special dependency on public resources.

    Arab Israelis are full citizens. A large majority of Israeli Arabs will agree (polls) they enjoy full legal equality, if not economic equity (which I’m afraid is an entirely different matter. Equality of outcomes are never possible).

    The status of Palestinians is a question which cannot be examined under the same framework of law, pending a political resolution.

    Does the U.S. practice de facto segregation? Depends. That Blacks and Hispanics are rare, even absent in certain neighbourhoods is an outcome explained by a variety of factors, financial, entrenched local practices, self-selection and lack of knowledge of the law. None of these has an easy remedy, if at all. But the law does not promote or exacerbate it. It should, and attempts to, do the reverse.

    • Replies: @iffen
  314. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    It aims to preserve a Jewish majority

    How is this different from Senator Fulbright supporting the limitations on black suffrage?

    The status of Palestinians is a question which cannot be examined under the same framework of law, pending a political resolution.

    This a little bit of a legalese fiction since Israel determines what is and what is not “Israel.”

    Does Israel build any housing projects on the West Bank for Israeli Arabs?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Sam Shama
  315. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    How is this different from Senator Fulbright supporting the limitations on black suffrage?

    You mean to say they are no different? What were the percentages of the respective populations? Do you mean to suggest suffrage has a positive effect on fecundity? If so, please send me the research.

    This a little bit of a legalese fiction since Israel determines what is and what is not “Israel.”

    What in your opinion were the circumstances which led to Israel’s presence in the WB?

    • Replies: @iffen
  316. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Does Israel build any housing projects on the West Bank for Israeli Arabs?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/06/opinion/naftali-bennett-for-israel-two-state-is-no-solution.html?_r=0

    In my former career as a high-tech entrepreneur, I saw how diverse people from different backgrounds could learn to work together in pursuit of economic prosperity. Already, there are 15 industrial zones in the West Bank where Israelis work alongside about 15,000 Palestinians. These zones pump about $300 million a year into the Palestinian economy. Imagine what another 15 industrial zones could do.”

    While I would not claim pure benevolence in Naftali’s plans, Israel tries. If Palestinians someday consent to act pragmatically, much can happen.

  317. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    How is this different from Senator Fulbright supporting the limitations on black suffrage?

    You mean to say they are no different? What were the percentages of the respective populations?

    It doesn’t matter whether a majority denies suffrage to a minority or a minority denies suffrage to a majority. Within the context of liberal representative democracy it is denial of political equality.

    This a little bit of a legalese fiction since Israel determines what is and what is not “Israel.”

    What in your opinion were the circumstances which led to Israel’s presence in the WB?

    I haven’t read on the subject in depth. I don’t know if it was self-defense or if Israel enticed and provoked. I don’t think it makes any material difference in the formation of my views.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  318. Sam Shama says:
    @L.K

    Do you laugh reptile? It’s a hiss. Do you know you are unintentionally repulsive? Which army did your reptilian ancestors serve? Seig Heil! Seig Heil! Hissed the reptile. They got their arses tanned and will be always, by the enlisted men of the U.S.

  319. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    It doesn’t matter whether a majority denies suffrage to a minority or a minority denies suffrage to a majority. Within the context of liberal representative democracy it is denial of political equality.

    Suffrage (or even desegregation) in itself was not so much the greater point of my reply #324, as was the quaint notion that somehow a majority loses its status, its numbers bested by the erstwhile minority greatly gaining in fecundity as a consequence of its newly acquired right. Iow, did voting suddenly unleash a suppressed capacity to breed?

    Once again, Israeli Arabs do have political equality, proportional to their popular vote.

    Palestinians are outside that nexus. Upon a political resolution they will and I think we are closer to it than ever before. When in history did a people defeated in a series of wars their side started at least in large part, get to write the political procedures and laws? You are asking of Israel a concession never previously witnessed.

    • Replies: @iffen
  320. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    You are asking of Israel a concession never previously witnessed.

    I am not asking Israel to do anything in particular. I am just pointing out that Israel is a “democracy” in the same way that the late 19th and early 20th century South was a “democracy.”

    You say that endogamy is a personal choice, but then you turn around and hold it against a person for making the choice that you disapprove of. If something is truly a personal choice you shouldn’t penalize a person for making a decision one way or another.

    I don’t understand your connection to fecundity. I doubt that the Israelis would allow the Israeli Arabs to take political control if their numbers pass Jewish Israelis in the future, so it is moot to take one side or the other.

    Do people in the WB settlements vote in Israeli elections?

    If the answer is yes, does everyone on the WB get to vote?

    I re-iterate that Israel draws the lines and decides who votes and who doesn’t.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  321. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    You say that endogamy is a personal choice, but then you turn around and hold it against a person for making the choice that you disapprove of. If something is truly a personal choice you shouldn’t penalize a person for making a decision one way or another.

    Show me where I disapproved or otherwise opposed a personal choice of endogamy. To each his own, I repeat, at the risk of sounding repetitive.

    I am just pointing out that Israel is a “democracy” in the same way that the late 19th and early 20th century South was a “democracy.”

    Yes. Trust me I like Southerners a great deal more in general than many in the NE. The Old South was an honest place and it was indeed a democracy. The world moves, at times forward and at others, backwards. Segregation just seemed an anachronism. The Southern Manifesto was an attempt to separate Blacks from mixing with Whites, a state of things which remains quite intact under desegregation. People reveal their preferences. No need for the state to enforce it. How many Whites marry Blacks? On the subject of the condition of Blacks I have some thoughts, mainly a model driven by their culture and the deleterious effects of AA. A discussion for another time perhaps…..

    I did not disagree that Israel draws the lines. And I reiterate that segregation does not exist in Israel. Israel wishes to preserve its majority Jewish status and that is a realistic concern. The South being overtaken by a majority Black population was never a concern.

    Look, on the whole, I am deeply persuaded by socially liberal libertarianism while embracing economic federalism and fiscal policy. For example, I consider laws such as the one compelling bakers to serve gay weddings, oppressive. But I won’t support a law which excludes a gay man from joining my golf club.

    • Replies: @iffen
  322. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Do people in the WB settlements vote in Israeli elections?

    If the answer is yes, does everyone on the WB get to vote?

    For example, I consider laws such as the one compelling bakers to serve gay weddings, oppressive. But I won’t support a law which excludes a gay man from joining my golf club.

    How about a HUD housing project on the adjacent block to your location?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  323. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    Do you support segregation?

    Sorry, Sam. I’d be delighted to answer this and the rest of your questions (without sidestepping any of them) on one condition: you unequivocally retract the ugly slur you directed at me – i.e., that I am motivated by Jew hatred.

    • Replies: @iffen
  324. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    the ugly slur

    Is there any other kind?

    You may not be a genuine Jew-hater, Geo, but I think that it would not be a stretch for you to fake it if you needed to.

  325. geokat62 says:

    You may not be a genuine Jew-hater, Geo, but I think that it would not be a stretch for you to fake it if you needed to.

    Kinda’ like you not being a genuine American patriot, iffen, but it wouldn’t be a stretch for you to fake it if you needed to?

    btw – I trust you wearing sackcloth and ashes when you wrote this comment?

    • Replies: @iffen
  326. Hibernian says:
    @iffen

    33rd ASG ILARNG Bagram Airfield Afghanistan April 2004 – March 2005

    It’s obvious that you feel a stronger bond with the IDF than the American armed forces in which you served, especially when you more or less agreed with your tag team buddy’s assertion that the ammo cook off was a cover story for a second sailor deciding on his own to fire on the Israelis.

    • Replies: @iffen
  327. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    You, a Canadian, continuously fret about the nature of an individual American’s patriotism, the uses of America’s “blood and treasure,” and most of all what dem Jews are up to now.

    You are not that good at thinking on your feet and you have that in common with most of your fellow travelers here. Best to stick to copying and pasting MondoWeiss. (As if we can’t find the site ourselves and read what we want.)

    I previously explained my loyalty scheme. (Write it down for future reference if you need to.)Unlike yours that apparently starts with Jews on one side and everyone else on the other, mine, as I told you, starts with family and expands from there to include community and eventually all Americans.

  328. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    [How about a HUD housing project on the adjacent block to your location?]

    Truthfully, it would be a coup for HUD to insert a project in my neck of the woods, but I do understand the gist of your question. Such a project would deal a blow to real estate values in my neighbourhood, flooding it with people least prepared to integrate well within existing norms. I would oppose it precisely the same way I opposed (with other residents, many of them Jewish) an invasion by Hasidim. I live in a neighbourhood fairly diverse: Waspy types, Jews, Italians, South Asians and East Asians. Its cultural mosaic a combination of traditional American values embraced happily by all. We wish it to remain so. The essence is in numbers.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
    , @iffen
  329. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    fairly diverse

    No rednecks? Hardly diverse. :)

  330. Sam Shama says:

    Got an ex-Texan and an ex-Arkansan :)

  331. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    (about my being capable of donning rubber boots so as not to get any blood on myself)

    incapable

    You could drop the pellets, not wear the rubber boots.

  332. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    You are clearly opposed to using the word segregation in reference to Israel and I am not going to insist that you agree with me. I see the distinctions that you make. I retain a difference of opinion on the matter and provide what I think are relevant comments.

    Hi Iffen,
    My feelings on the subject are straightforward. To each his own. Choose where you wish to dwell, raise your progeny, carry on the business of life. That ethnic clustering occurs is well understood, no great mystery there.

    What I cannot support is institutional segregation. The state may not codify it. It is that simple

    Fullbright was far cleverer than the garden variety, Mearsheimer and Walt duo being the worthy successors.

    Yes certainly, let’s include the weighty opinions of that segregationist and masked anti-Semite, why don’t we?

    Fulbright was a segregationist. Endogamy is a facet of segregation. You are condemning him for being a segregationist and I assume his anti-Israel remarks. Whether one supports the use of political power to enforce segregation and endogamy is a personal choice. He made two personal choices, one to support segregation and the second to use political power in the enforcement.

    Would you describe the marriage laws in Israel as a pure personal choice or state supported endogamy?

    You condemn Fulbright for having made decisions regarding segregation and endogamy that are very similar to those being made in Israel. You can’t hold that against him and not hold it against the political leaders in Israel.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  333. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    One last item and I will leave it and you alone.

    You have not answered the question on voting rights of the people living in the settlements on the WB.

    I know very little about actual conditions in Israel, but I know quite a bit about segregation in the South. One of the more useful political devices was racial gerrymandering.

    Of course we still have Supreme Court approved racial gerrymandering. Black districts are required at least 55% black, not 51-49%, but 65-70% black is too much and not constitutional. So much for your liberal democracy and state codified race law.

  334. iffen says:
    @Hibernian

    It’s obvious that you feel a stronger bond with the IDF

    If it was obvious wouldn’t I have noticed it?

    your tag team buddy’s

    Your concept of tag team is flawed.

    ammo cook off was a cover story

    I said I didn’t have a clue.

    In your spare time work on reading comprehension.

    • Replies: @Hibernian
  335. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Would you describe the marriage laws in Israel as a pure personal choice or state supported endogamy?

    Pure personal choice. Inter-religious marriages are not uncommon. A rabbi or a Muslim clergyman will likely not officiate, but the state offices will. Most people are endogamous. The state does support large religious families, a constant source of irritation for the secular.

    Whether one supports the use of political power to enforce segregation and endogamy is a personal choice.

    Yes, it is a personal choice and if you support the use of political power to promote it, then you should also accept the outcome of that process.

    You condemn Fulbright for having made decisions regarding segregation and endogamy that are very similar to those being made in Israel. You can’t hold that against him and not hold it against the political leaders in Israel.

    Once again, Israel does not segregate. Not by the law of the land. It has been attempted by politicians in Israel, soundly rejected in the past. I am sure many ultra-religious politicians support such an arrangement today, but I condemn them. It’s redundant. Revealed preferences.

    Best

  336. geokat62 says:

    What matters is not what one Zionist’s view is on the issue of segregation in Israel. What matters are the disturbing trends developing in the Jewish state, according to this recent poll:

    ALMOST HALF OF ISRAEL’S JEWS SUPPORT EXPELLING ARABS: POLL

    Almost half of Jewish Israelis support the idea of expelling Arabs from the country, according to a poll on the views of devout and secular Jews released on Tuesday that underlines the deep religious and ethnic divides within Israel.

    The poll, conducted by the nonpartisan, Washington D.C.-based Pew Research Center, found that 48 percent of Jewish Israelis agreed with the idea that Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel. Forty-six percent of those polled opposed such a move.

    The level of support among religious Israeli Jews was higher than the overall level of support. A total of 71 percent of practicing Jews—69 percent of ultra-Orthodox and 54 percent of traditional Jews—supported the expulsion of Arabs from Israeli territory.

    http://www.newsweek.com/almost-half-israeli-jews-support-expulsion-arabs-country-poll-435004

    And what is truly disturbing, if we are to believe what Greasy William predicted about demographic trends in the Jewish state, is that the proportion of Israeli Jews calling for expulsion will be significantly increasing in the not too distant future:

    But the fact that you think that contemporary Israelis are being excessively cruel to the Palestinians is so far beyond ridiculous it just beggars belief. The ONLY reason the Palestinian people still exist at all is because of the weakness and faithlessness of the Israeli secular population. A population that is rapidly disappearing.

    In 30 years, the Land of Israel will be ruled by the Torah True and then you won’t see any more “crimes” against the Palestinians because there simply will be no Palestinians at all. And there is nothing you can do about it.

    The Canaanites are all dead. The Palestinians will be joining them shortly. I pray only that you will live to see it.

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/hunger-striking-for-palestinian-rights/#comment-1885851

    Query: isn’t it rather peculiar that one Zionist would be emphasizing his opposition to segregation while subscribing to an ideology that is so racist by definition it ineluctably leads to a situation in which there is no minority left from which to segregate?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Rurik
    , @geokat62
  337. geokat62 says:

    You could drop the pellets, not wear the rubber boots.

    What’s with these former evangelicals? Hard to believe they truly believed Jesus loved them, when it’s abundantly clear they are so consumed by hate.

    • Replies: @iffen
  338. Ahh, I thought that since the ceremony was moved to Norfolk this year, there wouldn’t be one at Arlington. I would have attended as I’ve done in previous years. Bummer.

    Anyway, thanks for remembering and attending, Phil.

  339. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    I see you’ve adopted the ‘Svigor’ practice of humping table legs with the ‘clever’ unlinked replies. No matter.

    From the same Pew poll:

    “The majority of secular Jews oppose the expulsion of Arabs, with 58 percent against and 37 percent in favor. As expected, those who said they were aligned to the right wing within Israel were more supportive of the move than those who said they were in the center or left of Israeli politics.”

    Israel Central Bureau of Statistics shows that 8% of Israel’s Jewish population defines itself as ultra-Orthodox, 12% as Orthodox, 13% as traditional-religious, 25% as traditional, and 42% as secular, on a descending scale of religiosity.

    Secular Jews constitute the largest bloc. Traditionals shifted away from the secular, which explains the results of this poll, taken during a period when stabbing episodes by Palestinians were peaking. Ordinarily, traditional Jews would be solidly behind the secular. In addition, it matters even less given the opinions of the 20% minority were not included in the poll. They are citizens are they not? Most importantly, however, the Supreme Court of Israel and the intellectual leadership will remain with the secular as it always has. No Nobel winners, our ultra. Sometimes when even a large popular majority is deluded in their opinions, it is the leadership, the Court in particular, which shall determine the legality of any action. Here, even in the midst of stabbings, we do not quite have a Jewish majority supporting this nasty little idea let alone their actual ability to move the actionable needle. Remember Gaza? All the bloody lunatics wanted to stay put with the IDF guarding their derrieres. Did not happen. The secular law prevailed and shall always.

    Query: Isn’t it comedy that one Canadian, a self-declared White Supremacy sympathiser, all knowledge derived from copious doses of Jew-hating dreck, proposes to weigh in on all matters concerning Jews and the Jewish state? Does he live in his own country which rejects his narrow sympathies?

  340. iffen says:

    I see you’ve adopted the ‘Svigor’ practice of humping table legs with the ‘clever’ unlinked replies. No matter.

    Not linking to your comment is some sort of political sleight of hand statement. It says that I am responding to your comments, but not formally, so nothing is “official” and I cannot be held accountable. Its parallel is that I can constantly repeat 90% of the ravings and factoids of anti-Semites, but that absolutely is not evidence that “I” have any such tendencies.

    A total of 71 percent of practicing Jews—69 percent of ultra-Orthodox and 54 percent of traditional Jews—supported the expulsion of Arabs from Israeli territory.

    Well at least they don’t support segregation!

    Sorry, Sam, I couldn’t resist. :)

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  341. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Jesus’s love is un-conditional; he loves everyone, not so with humans.

    Jesus says we are to love Nazis. I couldn’t do it so I had to move on.

  342. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hi Iffen,

    :-)
    I’ve written previously about the populations turning more radical. However, the secular (non-practising) are still the largest bloc. I never claimed Israelis taken as a whole are ready to sing kumbaya with Pals. Many hate Arabs, and the sentiment is heartily reciprocated. The distinction lies in the observed behaviour of the largely secular and Traditional blocs, and, most importantly, the unmistakable stance of the Law.

  343. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Query: isn’t it rather peculiar that one Zionist would be emphasizing his opposition to segregation…

    ahh but Geo, didn’t you notice the not-so-subtle way he handled that?

    he simply disregarded all the Arabs that have been ethnically cleansed from their homes and farms and land as being unworthy of even mentioning, vis-a-vis the issue of segregation in Israel. Only the Arabs in Israel proper are of consequence, you see?

    The Arabs in the occupied territories don’t exist! They don’t matter, they don’t count, and so Sam can wax all progressive and humanist while advocating for a program of genocide in the holy land, by pretending that the Arab victims of Jewish treachery, theft and murder don’t even exit!

    Nice huh?

    and the fact that this kind of in-your-face hypocrisy, as he points his sanctimonious finger at ‘segregationists’, is I suspect why the expression, ‘beyond the Pale’, even exists.

    and make no mistake Geo, insofar as such brazen hubris is over the top, and offensive in the extreme, they will take great personal satisfaction at how their shameless arrogance and murderous dishonesty riles the sensibilities of honest people everywhere.

  344. @Timur The Lame

    I have come across at most 8 repeat commenters on UR whose contributions might be classed as part of “scholarly discussion”. Do you disagree?

    As to the anons who don’t meet the prima facie descriptions that Mr Unz announced I suggest that some may be hiding embarrassment at not being able to resist responding to the near demented.

  345. Hibernian says:
    @iffen

    There’s this thing called reading between the lines.

    • Replies: @iffen
  346. iffen says:
    @Hibernian

    There’s this thing called reading between the lines.

    There is such a thing, but some people are not any good at reading between the lines nor the actual lines.

  347. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Do Jews have a better-defined identity than Italian Catholics? Wasps?

    Clearly Jews have an identity that brings hate to them – they earn it.

    It makes no difference what land – Christian, Muslim, all others – eventually they become hated.

    Ask them! From birth, hate is sown into their minds. They crave the fight and the discord – it motivates their success. The hate they were taught by their elders, gives them license to cheat their host culture.

    From birth, they learn to falsely cry victim – when in truth, it is they who victimize their host culture.

    Peace — Art

    p.s. Jews are a curse on any land. Their parasitic divide and conquer tactics destroy nations.

  348. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Jonathon Cook has just shed some light on the next step of the Jewish state’s plan to “rid itself of the Palestinians”:

    UN last hurdle before Israel can rid itself of the Palestinians

    Israeli and US officials are in the process of jointly pre-empting Donald Trump’s supposed “ultimate deal” to end the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. They hope to demote the Palestinian issue to a footnote in international diplomacy…

    To protect its tiny ally, Washington is threatening to cut billions in US funding to the world body, plunging it into crisis and jeopardising peacekeeping and humanitarian operations.

    On the way to Israel, Haley stopped at the UN’s Human Rights Council in Geneva, demanding it end its “pathological” opposition to Israel’s decades of occupation and human rights violations – or the US would pull out of the agency…

    But worse is to come. Now the framework of international laws and institutions established after the Second World War is at risk of being dismembered.

    That danger was highlighted on Sunday, when it emerged that Netanyahu had urged Haley to dismantle another UN agency much loathed by Israel. UNRWA cares for more than five million Palestinian refugees across the region…

    UNRWA, Netanyahu says, “perpetuates” rather than solves their problems. He prefers that they become the responsibility of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), which looks after all other refugee populations.

    His demand is a monumental U-turn, 70 years in the making. In fact, it was Israel that in 1948 insisted on a separate UN refugee agency for the Palestinians*…

    On Monday Netanyahu announced his determination to block Europe from funding Israeli human rights organisations, the main watchdogs in the West Bank and a key data source for UN agencies. He now refuses to meet any world leader who talks to these rights groups.

    With Trump in the White House, a crisis-plagued Europe ever-more toothless and the Arab world in disarray, Netanyahu wants to seize this chance to clear the UN out of the way too.

    Global institutions such as the UN and the international law it upholds were created after the Second World War to protect the weakest and prevent a recurrence of the Holocaust’s horrors.

    Today, Netanyahu is prepared to risk it all, tearing down the post-war international order, if this act of colossal vandalism will finally rid him of the Palestinians.

    http://mondoweiss.net/2017/06/hurdle-before-palestinians/

    In light of these developments, it’s encouraging to know there are a few Zionists who are steadfast opponents of segregation in the Holy Land.

    [MORE]

    * UNRWA was created to prevent the Palestinians falling under the charge of UNHCR’s forerunner, the International Refugee Organisation. Israel was afraid that the IRO, formed in the immediate wake of the Second World War, would give Palestinian refugees the same prominence as European Jews fleeing Nazi atrocities.

    Israel did not want the two cases compared, especially as they were so intimately connected. It was the rise of Nazism that bolstered the Zionist case for a Jewish state in Palestine and Jewish refugees who were settled on lands from which Palestinians had just been expelled by Israel.

    Also, Israel was concerned that the IRO’s commitment to the principle of repatriation might force it to accept back the Palestinian refugees.

    Israel’s hope then was precisely that UNRWA would not solve the Palestinian refugee problem; rather, it would resolve itself. The idea was encapsulated in a Zionist adage: “The old will die and the young forget.”

    But millions of Palestinian descendants still clamour for a right of return. If they cannot forget, Netanyahu prefers that the world forget them.

    As bloody wars grip the Middle East, the best way to achieve that aim is to submerge the Palestinians among the world’s 65 million other refugees. Why worry about the Palestinian case when there are millions of Syrians newly displaced by war?

    But UNRWA poses a challenge, because it is so deeply entrenched in the region and insists on a just solution for Palestinian refugees.

    UNRWA’s huge staff includes 32,000 Palestinian administrators, teachers and doctors, many living in camps in the West Bank – Palestinian territory Netanyahu and Danon hunger for. The UN’s presence there is an impediment to annexation.

  349. geokat62 says:

    To those who wish to slur the few of us (who have the temerity to shed a little light on the machinations of The Lobby) as being motivated by racial supremacy, let me remind you that, according to Gilad Atzmon, it is the Zionist ideology that is steeped in racial supremacy.

    Here are a few excerpts from The Wandering Who:

    1. “My Grandfather believed in the revival of the pride of the ‘Jewish race’, and so did I in my very early days. Like my peers, I didn’t see the Palestinians around me. They were undoubtedly there –they fixed my father’s car for half the price, they built our houses, they cleaned the mess we left behind, they schlepped boxes in the local food store, but they always disappeared just before sunset and appeared again before dawn. We never socialised with them. We didn’t really understand who they were and what they stood for. Supremacy was brewed into our souls, we gazed at the world through racist, chauvinistic binoculars. And we felt no shame about it either.”

    2. “Unlike the Western Diaspora secular Jew, who struggles to establish a coherent continuum between Chosen-ness and a multi-ethnic open society, Israel permits a coherent and consistent symbolic interpretation of tribal supremacism, in which ‘love yourself as much as you hate everyone else’ becomes a pragmatic reality. The Israeli is capable of inflicting the ultimate pain on his or her neighbours. In order to understand the tribal concept of self-loving, we must first consider the concept of Chosen-ness. While the religious (Judaic) understanding of Chosen-ness is interpreted as a moral burden in which Jews are ordered by God to stand as an exemplary model of ethical behaviour, the secular Jewish interpretation has been reduced to a crude, ethno-centric, blood-orientated chauvinism. It encourages those ‘lucky’ enough to have a Jewish mother to love themselves blindly. In most cases, Israelis interpret their national homecoming as a legitimate dismissal of the elementary rights of the other. In many cases, it leads to animosity and even hatred, whether latent or manifest. This form of supremacy lies at the heart of the Zionist claim for Palestine, at the expense of its indigenous inhabitants…”

    3. “It also explains why newly-born Israel was quick to expel the vast majority of the Palestinian indigenous population just three years after the liberation of Auschwitz. These events have nothing to do with the colonialist nature of the Jewish state as some Marxist ideologists insist. They may have something to do with the racist, supremacist, chauvinist ideology that fuels Zionism…”

    4. “As much as such an idea is thrilling, we shouldn’t expect it to happen any time soon, for Israel is the Jewish state and Jewishness is an ethno-centric ideology driven by exclusiveness, exceptionalism, racial supremacy and a deep inherent inclination toward segregation. For Israel and Israelis to become people like other people, all traces of Jewish ideological superiority must be eliminated first. For the Jewish state to lead a peace initiative, Israel must be de-Zionised –it should first stop being the Jewish State.”

    5. “Can Jewish politics drift away from supremacy? Can Jews save themselves? My answer is simple: for Jewish ideology to universalise itself and for Jews to move on and emancipate themselves, a vigorous and honest process of self-reflection must take place.”

    6. “Zionism is a dynamic continuation of Jewish-ness: it is racist, exclusive, supremacist and self-centred, yet it is not Judaic. It has very little to do with Judaism. It may be messianic in a territorial sense, yet it lacks the Judaic divinity. In fact, in this sense, Zionism opposes Judaism.”

    I especially enjoyed reading point #4

    for Israel is the Jewish state and Jewishness is an ethno-centric ideology driven by exclusiveness, exceptionalism, racial supremacy and a deep inherent inclination toward segregation.

    Kind of puts the cherry on top of the previous discussions on segregation, doesn’t it? But, unfortunately, you have to be a truth-teller to admit such things… and some around here struggle to tell the truth.

    • Replies: @iffen
  350. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    To those who wish to slur the few of us (who have the temerity to shed a little light on the machinations of The Lobby) as being motivated by racial supremacy, let me remind you that, according to Gilad Atzmon, it is the Zionist ideology that is steeped in racial supremacy.

    the few of us

    Thank God there are only a few.

    I don’t mind you shining a light on the lobby/Lobby, but do you have to spend all of your blood and treasure to do it 24/7?

    being motivated by racial supremacy

    This is human nature. The question is whether one understands the motivation and whether one works to impair or limit the worse effects that can come to the fore in behavior and actions.

    according to Gilad Atzmon

    Finding a Jew who says xyz hasn’t carried all that much weight since Moses.

    In light of these developments, it’s encouraging to know there are a few Zionists who are steadfast opponents of segregation in the Holy Land.

    Sam denies that it exists, and is opposed to de jure segregation.

    you have to be a truth-teller to admit such things… and some around here struggle to tell the truth.

    Slur, slur, slur, ugly slur.

  351. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Land of the slaves and home of the cowards.

  352. @jilles dykstra

    As you make such confident assertions about matters that depend on your knowing and having good evidence for critical facts I take the opportunity of putting to you a group of related questions that appear to need answering.

    My impression is that conspiracy theories, true or false, didn’t start to arise from the facts available after 9/11 but on nitpicking the words of the 9/11 commission. If there were people who quickly saw an inside job or something equally nefarious in the days and weeks after the event they surely would have done some evidence gathering. Steel might be sold to China but that is irrelevant to the possibility of sampling of the debris to find thermite, or whatever else might be incriminating.

    So, did people voice cogent theories of wrongdoing other than that of the 19 Muslims – based perhaps on doubting that it really was aircraft that caused the damage or just a feeling about the way the towers fell, or because, as people much later commented, the BBC seemed to have the timing of events wrong wrt WTC7? If they did, why isn’t there evidence collected at the time to back up their suspicions? (Or did they collect it and find that it didn’t support their suspicions?). Or is it just the case that the 9/11 commission was so unconvincing to many people that it actually bred the conspiracy theories?

  353. Stan says:

    CrossTalk: Remembering USS Liberty

    Fifty years ago the American naval ship the USS Liberty was brutally attacked by Israeli aircraft. The attack on the Liberty was one of the worst assaults ever carried out on a U.S. Naval vessel in peace time – and committed by an allied country. Since then, the survivors of this unprovoked attack have been seeking justice.
    CrossTalking with Ken O’Keefe, Daniel McAdams, and Phillip F. Nelson

  354. U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry
    to inquire into the circumstances surrounding
    the armed attack on the USS Liberty (AGTR-5) on 8 June 1967
    [......]

    FINDINGS OF FACT

    [MORE]

    1. Available evidence combines to indicate the attack on LIBERTY on
    8 June was in fact a case of Mistaken identity.

    2. The Calm conditions and Slow ship speed may well have made the
    American Flag difficult to identify.

    3. The ship’s westerly heading at the time of attack – in the general
    direction of Egyptian ports may have reinforced elements of
    doubt in the minds of the several Israeli pilots who looked the
    ship over in the forenoon.

    4. The colors were shot down Early in the action and were replaced
    prior to the PT attack.

    5. The immediate confusion milling around astern followed by
    peaceful overtures by the attacking surface forces after launching
    only two torpedoes of the six presumed available (two
    on each PT boat), indicate these craft may well have identified
    the colors for the First time when they got in close enough to see clearly
    through the smoke and flames billowing, at times above the mast head.

    6. There are NO available indications that the attack was Intended
    against a U. S. Ship.

    7. LIBERTY’S position at the time of the attack has been previously
    ordered Changed farther to seaward by JCS; however, the messages
    relating to these changes were Not known to the ship before the attack took place.
    The reasons these messages were not known to the ship can be determined
    in all instances except for one. Since LIBERTY records and knowledgeable personnel
    were lost in the action, it is Impossible to determine the disposition of the message.

    8. The communication delays and mis-routing ERRORS which caused these several
    non-deliveries combined with delays in initiating follow-up actions on operational
    instructions received, all contributed to the Ship Itself being Unaware of plans and
    decisions made for her Repositioning. A detailed accounting of the five pertinent
    messages are attached as appendices one through five.
    [.......]
    and 44 More.
    [.......]

    [signatures]

    Isaac C Kidd
    Rear Admiral , U.S. Navy
    President

    Bernard J Lauff
    Captain, U.S. Navy
    member

    Bert S Atkinson , Jr.
    Captain, U.S. Navy
    member

    Ward Boston, Jr.
    Captain, U.S. Navy
    Counsel for the Court

  355. [CAPTAIN] MCGONAGLE:
    [......]
    “..I did not have an accurate ship’s position at this time, but I knew that to the left of the ship’s course at that time lie shoal waters and by turning to the left I would be approaching land closer than had been given me in directives which I held in that instant in time. I realized that if I attempted to turn to starboard, I would expose a larger target to the torpedo boats. I elected to maintain a heading of 283 at maximum speed.

    [MORE]

    When the boats reached an approximate range of 2,000 yards, the center boat of the formation was Signalling to us.

    Also, at this range, it appeared that they were flying an Israli (sic) flag. This was later verified. It was not possible to read the signals from the center torpedo boat because of the intermittent blocking of view by smoke and flames.
    At this time, I yelled to machine gun 51 to tell him to Hold Fire.
    I realized that there was a Possibility of the aircraft having been Israeli and the attack had been Conducted in Error.

    I wanted to Hold Fire to see if we could read the Signal from the torpedo boat and perhaps avoid additional damage and personnel injuries.

    The man on machine gun 51 fired a short burst at the boats Before he was able to understand what I was attempting to have him do. Instantly, on machine gun 51 opening fire machine gun 53 began firing at the center boat.
    From the starboard wing of the bridge, 03 level,
    I observed that the fire from machine gun 53 was extremely Effective and Blanketed the area and the center torpedo boat.

    It was not possible to get to mount 53 from the starboard wing of the bridge. I sent Mr. LUCAS around the port-side of the bridge, around to the skylights, to see if he could tell QUINTERO, whom I believed to be the gunner on machine gun 53, to hold fire until we were able to clarify the situation. He reported back in a few minutes in effect that he saw no one at mount 53.

    As far as the torpedo boats were concerned, I am sure that they felt They were under fire from the USS LIBERTY. At THIS time They opened fire with their gun mounts and in a matter of seconds one torpedo was noted crossing astern of the ship at about 25 yards.”…
    `

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