The Unz Review - Mobile
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 Philip Giraldi ArchiveBlogview
Reining In Government Surveillance
A New Year's Wish
surveillance 2

“Terrorism” might well be the word one encounters most in the international media. The reaction to recent incidents has been hysterical coupled with demands for an apocalyptic violent response. At this point with the old year ending and the new one about to begin, it would perhaps be fruitful to examine both the reality of terror and an appropriate reaction to whatever transnational threats might be regarded as genuine.

One of America’s founding fathers Benjamin Franklin once observed that those who would trade their liberty for security will wind up with neither. Franklin understood that once freedoms are bartered away they will never return while complete security is a fiction, an unobtainable objective that will inevitably only be pursued by increasing the unaccountable powers of the police and government. Make no mistake terrorism does not go away even if one lives in a police state because those who use terror can always strike at a soft or unprotected target as they did recently in Paris and San Bernardino. Terror is a tool used by the weak against the strong, manifested in our generation by non-state actors who ultimately seek to change governments by using fear as a weapon. All groups that we consider terrorists are political even if they mask their activity in religion or culture as their ultimate intention is to replace an existing regime with themselves.

But, inevitably, it is more complicated than that due to causality. The United States experiences international as opposed to domestic terrorism because it is waging a series of wars in a number of predominantly Muslim nations overseas. So while domestic terrorists seek to subvert the established order by generating fear and uncertainty, foreign and mostly Islamic terrorists are more directly motivated by revenge, even if their leaders are also simultaneously trying to take over or establish regimes in countries in the Middle East.

Either way, the development demands a national security response. So how do we preserve our liberties, most particularly freedom of speech and association, while at the same time dealing with organized gangs seeking to gain control over the instruments of state supplemented by mass murderers wanting revenge for U.S. foreign policy? In spite of the fact that fewer than 45 Americans have been killed by Islamist terror since 9/11 while many more have been killed by fellow citizens with personal or group agendas, the focus of legislation and the government response has been on Islamic militants and domestic mass murderers are generally treated as criminals.

America’s response to the international variety of terror has included the passage of two Patriot Acts that have permitted law enforcement to monitor previously protected communications by citizens as well as Military Commissions Act and sections of the Authorization to Use Military Force that allow military tribunals and unlimited detention. The Patriot Act’s best publicized initiative was the National Security Agency’s electronic mass spying. The program involved electronic espionage directed against both foreign heads of state and millions of Americans and foreigners but it reportedly only produced one actual terrorism lead in over ten years of trying.

Another Patriot Act feature was the National Security Letter, which allowed Federal Bureau of Investigation agents to obtain personal information without having to go through a judge or providing any evidence of probable cause. Under penalty of imprisonment, the recipient of a NSL was not allowed to reveal that he or she had been served with the letter, meaning that the process was both unrestrained by any rule of law and secretive.

Both Patriot Act features have now been modified under public and media pressure resulting from the Edward Snowden revelations but the government can still access metadata on citizens through the carriers, which are required to retain the information, and it still has a free hand to investigate what it regards as “terrorism cases” with very few restrictions. In effect, government snooping has been outsourced to the communications service providers.

And if the increasing government invasion of privacy is measured by results one has to consider the broadly construed war on terror to be a failure. Groups using the terror tactic are actually proliferating due to other policy failures, most notably the U.S. led western efforts to change regimes in the Middle East, Asia and North Africa which have destroyed existing state structures and have resulted in power vacuums that militants are able to fill. And actual terror attacks in the United States have not been foiled by extra police powers to read our mail and intercept our phone calls. The Boston marathon bombing was not prevented even though useful information was provided to Washington by Russia, intelligence that was not acted upon.

In fact most terrorist arrests in the United States consist of individuals who have not actually done anything. They are being arrested for what they might do or for voicing opinions that once upon a time might have been considered freedom of speech or association. Indeed, countries like France have already selectively criminalized certain types of speech and associations that they categorize as either hate crimes or threatening national security without any impact whatsoever on hindering the activities of those who choose to employ terror.

Currently spokesmen for the national security community in the United States are complaining about commercially available apps that encrypt communications, blaming both Paris and San Bernardino on the inability to read more private messages. But they fail to make a case that new powers would actually make any difference as the people who use terrorist tactics have been through this drill before and are adept at changing how they make contact and communicate with each other. They are usually at least one step ahead of the authorities.

With a presidential election looming, it is perhaps a good time to carry out a complete rethink of how personal freedom and national security should interact even if no candidate is actually willing to discuss such an issue. In principle security and liberty are in perpetual conflict but they can coexist under certain conditions where everyone understands the rules and is willing to play by them. Freedom versus security should always come down on the side of freedom and I say that for a reason that might strike many as odd. I believe that a community that does not think the police and government are spying on it will in fact prove an asset in any struggle against those using terror because it will not fear going to the authorities if something suspicious is occurring. Police sources in the United States confirm that local Muslim communities have been very cooperative as long as they do not feel that they are being coerced or spied upon.

To create a new normal for the liberty vs security risk vs gain matrix I would first repeal the Patriot and Military Commission Acts because they are in fact both unconstitutional and counterproductive. Claims that they have prevented numerous terrorist acts generally turn out to be either baseless or a deliberate distortion of developments that favor such analysis. The new laws have accomplished little beyond sustaining huge dysfunctional police-style bureaucracies and denying fundamental liberties to honest citizens that only serve to validate the propaganda coming out of groups like ISIS.

To deal with those using terror tactics I would return to a rule of law. An absence of rule of law or flexibility in administering it inevitably leads to abuse of citizen rights by the government. The police should indeed be able to read my emails or listen in on my phone calls but only after they have gone to a judge for permission to do so and have demonstrated probable cause. The police should also be able to arrest me for cause but they must only be able to hold be for a fixed and brief period of time without filing charges. The FBI ought to be able to conduct sting operations against me if I am suspected of planning a terrorist act but they should not be allowed to introduce a paid informant, as they currently do, to encourage or even enable my act of violence. That used to be referred to as entrapment but now it is standard procedure.

And another aspect of government control of information that is little discussed is the covert and semi-overt attempts by the Administration to influence how developments are perceived by the voters. That essentially requires lying to the public to conceal what is taking place or to create fear that justifies harsh responses. Fearmongering by government sources is currently playing out regarding San Bernardino, coupled with demands for new police powers.

Sometimes the distortion amounts to a spinning of the news, which might be referred to by an intelligence related expression which is “perception management.” When the government uses its channels to journalists to convince the public that a war is necessary, as it did in Iraq and attempted to do in Syria, it amounts to a curtailment of the public’s right to know what the nation’s elected officials are doing on its behalf.

And when you do invade someone’s privacy or pressure the media to be silent with either an Official Secrets Act in Britain or a citation of State Secrets Privilege as in the United States there must be transparency to the process. A judge must be convinced that there is a legitimate national security issue at stake and he should not be acting alone. Recent proposed reforms of the National Security Agency and the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that authorizes some of its more sensitive operations included the appointment of something like an ombudsman tasked solely with defending the constitutional rights of the accused. Unfortunately, that role was made voluntary only when the court asks for it, but it should be standard operating procedure and a good example of how national security can be advanced while also protecting individual rights.

Most Americans would accept that a principal government role is to protect the people from harm initiated by foreign states and non-government players but most would also insist that the Bill of Rights affords fundamental liberties that must be maintained. Setting limits that are clearly understood on the government is one way to accomplish both. Secret government that abides by no rules is the enemy of the U.S. Constitution. In the upcoming election year, when all of the House of Representatives and many Senators will be elected as well as the president, it is essential that candidates be made aware that the abuse of power and its encroachment on personal freedoms that has taken place over the past fifteen years can no longer be tolerated.

 
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>
Of Related Interest
shutterstock_586359323
Hacked cellphone
The danger lies in what might be coming next
shutterstock_268622315
Police Nationwide Are Secretly Exploiting Intrusive Technologies With the Feds’ Complicity
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
[Filtered by Reply Thread]
  1. Good stuff, Phil, all of it. I’d note the very fact there have been proposals by members of government for a citizens advocate at the FISA court is an admission placing that court outside of our constitution. In that case, what we are dealing with at the highest institutions of government is not the rule of law but extra-constitutional order known as ‘color of law’ (to clarify your essay in legal terms.)

    Mr. Snowden has brought home to us that, while we Americans do not yet live in a police state or tyranny, we are well along in building the infrastructure on which either could be instantly erected if our leaders decided to do so. No longer protected by the law, our freedoms now depend on the self-restraint of men and women in authority, many of them in uniform. History protests that if one builds a turnkey totalitarian state, those who hold the keys will eventually turn them -Chas Freeman

    http://chasfreeman.net/snowden-and-snooping/

    It’s only a matter of time -

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc.
    AgreeDisagreeLOLTroll
    These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Troll, or LOL with the selected comment. They are only available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also only be used once per hour.
    Sharing Comment via Twitter
    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/reining-in-government-surveillance/#comment-1275097
    More... This Commenter Display All Comments
  2. Amen to that, Mr Giraldi.

    Amen to that !

    PS. Have “you ” ever thought of running for President?…..You would have my vote in a “New York minute”.

    Read More
  3. Currently spokesmen for the national security community in the United States are complaining about commercially available apps that encrypt communications

    I would like to explain something regarding this debate. When the Government complains about encrypted communications, do not assume that encryption presents any barrier to the Government observing your communications. The problem is that, when all communications are encrypted, they cannot listen to everyone as easily as before encryption. The best analogy is to imagine a country in which everybody always kept the front door unlocked. The Government Goons could walk into any house any time they like. Encryption is like some or most people starting to lock up their houses. The Government Goons can stick pick the locks or bust the front door down, but this makes surveillance more obvious and it costs more time and money. With powerful computers and experts at its disposal, the Government can break almost any encryption, but at cost. One could say exactly the same for any skillful information thief.

    If you do not encrypt your communications, this is truly similar to leaving your front door unlocked. The thieves may be happy with the loot they got next door, but eventually they will reach you. The Government essentially wants you to leave your front door open so that anyone could walk in, including “the protectors”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    You are correct Kiza - the government can break into any encryption system given sufficient time and effort. That "effort" is what they wish to avoid and it is why they prefer a legally mandated backdoor that enables them to circumvent the encryption completely or unencrypted communications that they can tap into at will.
    , @WorkingClass
    When you encrypt your communications, unless everybody does it, you are painting a target on your back.
    , @Bob Forsberg
    alexander and Kiza - The more people who understand your thoughts, the safer we are in the long run. Giving up our liberties to make law enforcement's job easier is insanity.
  4. @Kiza

    Currently spokesmen for the national security community in the United States are complaining about commercially available apps that encrypt communications
     
    I would like to explain something regarding this debate. When the Government complains about encrypted communications, do not assume that encryption presents any barrier to the Government observing your communications. The problem is that, when all communications are encrypted, they cannot listen to everyone as easily as before encryption. The best analogy is to imagine a country in which everybody always kept the front door unlocked. The Government Goons could walk into any house any time they like. Encryption is like some or most people starting to lock up their houses. The Government Goons can stick pick the locks or bust the front door down, but this makes surveillance more obvious and it costs more time and money. With powerful computers and experts at its disposal, the Government can break almost any encryption, but at cost. One could say exactly the same for any skillful information thief.

    If you do not encrypt your communications, this is truly similar to leaving your front door unlocked. The thieves may be happy with the loot they got next door, but eventually they will reach you. The Government essentially wants you to leave your front door open so that anyone could walk in, including "the protectors".

    You are correct Kiza – the government can break into any encryption system given sufficient time and effort. That “effort” is what they wish to avoid and it is why they prefer a legally mandated backdoor that enables them to circumvent the encryption completely or unencrypted communications that they can tap into at will.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    That “effort” is what they wish to avoid
     
    Disagree.

    Breaking in is big business, a major new industry.

    Since about October 2015 US administration mouthpieces and political candidates have been laying the foundation for the public offering of a high tech company founded 10 years ago in Palo Alto by the founder of PayPal and an otherwise directionless philosophy major who studied Habermas at the Frankfurt School. CIA was and is a major sponsor of Palantir from the beginning; it now has a DC presence next door to NCTC in Arlington, VA, where Obama spoke a week or so ago. http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/-President-Obama-Counterterrorism-Effort-39-The-Very-Best-39-In-The-World-243167.shtml

    Hillary Clinton has gone so far as to name the company -- Palantir -- as one of the new companies that will "help keep us safe and interrupt ISIS use of social media."

    http://www.franchiseherald.com/articles/47816/20151228/palantir-technologies-raises-another-880-million-now-valued-at-about-20-billion.htm
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I think encryption could be made effectively government proof. It is surely just a question of the number of digits. If computers can do a trillion digits a second testing and the encryption has another 12 (decimal) zeros the time to crack the encryption would surely be far too great - 1,000,000,000,000 ÷ 3600 hours. Or can someone convict me of gross error with expert testimony?

    On surer ground I suggest that surveillance should not be regarded as the problem but misuse of information obtained by covert surveillance. As deterrent on the one hand and compensation on the other massive damages awards facilitated by meticulous record keeping ought to help keep surveillance under control.
    , @Kiza
    Following up with the analogy of encryption being like a lock on your door and having two options to open:
    1) break down the front door - its equivalent in the information world is "brute-force attack", using computing power to find a key or a password, or
    2) pick the lock - its equivalent in the information world is "intelligent attack", knowing the weakness of the lock/encryption algorithm and using this knowledge to open.

    Also, remembering that there are three parties involved in this game:
    1) you, the owner of information
    2) government, which wants to have your information
    3) information thieves, who want to use your information.

    The information thieves usually do not have resources to do brute-force breaking, although most information thieves are opportunists who use weak passwords (equivalent to a window on your house left open) to break in.

    A legally mandated backdoor, also called a master-key, is a major problem for multiple reasons:
    1) even a confirmation that a backdoor exists is most useful to the information thieves to try to find it,
    2) a back-door/master-key breaks the pattern, creates wrinkles in the pattern of encryption and usually leaves traces behind, which can help with intelligent breaking,
    3) governments are not famous for information security - who safeguards the backdoor/master-key, who has access to it, under which conditions can this key be used (imagine a reverse Snowden),
    4) once a back-door is found by information thieves, all encryption of this same kind has been picked; who will pay the cost of replacement, which could run into many hundreds of millions of dollars, even billions,
    5) an encryption back door becomes a holly grail for any party wanting to have access to a broad scope of information - from foreign intelligence to information thieves.

    Overall, a built-in back-door/master-key is a terribly, terribly bad idea. This is even if we could trust the Government to use it only for fighting terrorism and not for political and revenue purposes. Just remember the accusations that the Democrats in the IRS forced audits on the Republicans or vice versa.

    Therefore, encryption back-door is direct enabler of a surveillance state, effectively, a repackaged ban on encryption.

  5. Dear Giraldi – “Terrorism” is a disputed term just like Holocaust. Both have political agenda. So, one has to take its definition with a grain of salt.

    Historically it were the Americans who introduced ‘suicide culture’ in the Muslim world. It was US Commodore Edward Preble, commanding officer of the Third Mediterranean Squadron, who sent a booby-trapped USS Intrepid into bay at Tripole on September 4, 1804. Lt. Richard Sommers along with other Navy crew volunteered to carry-on that suicidal mission for their country and religion.

    Shyam Chand, a former minister of Haryana state (India) and author of “Saffron Fascism” – in his article “Terrorism Inc.: Nexus between CIA and Mossad”, published in Mainstream Weekly, November 16, 2008 – stated: “How is that Zionist Americans and Israeli Jews are connected to so many things involving murders, single and plural? How is that the same Israeli security firm was in-charge of all 9/11 airports as well as the London Tube and Madrid train station at the time of attack? Informed research points the finger of accusation to the same group of people. It turns out that the number of people murdered makes the Holocaust Industry victims bigger killers than victims……. Fone Fakers were invented by CIA and Mossad before 9/11 which was an inside job of both of them. The same Fone Fakers are used in India. Innocent people are arrested on the basis of calls made through these Fone Fakers…… Not only the nexus between the RSS and Mossad worth investigation, our defense co-operation with Israel needs reconsideration before the ominous shadow of Mossad falls on our defense forces.”

    A few years ago, The Washington Times reported that the US State Department for the first time listed four Jewish websites on its list of “Foreign Terrorist Organizations”.

    http://rehmat1.com/2009/08/10/terrorism-theirs-and-ours/

    Read More
  6. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment
    @Philip Giraldi
    You are correct Kiza - the government can break into any encryption system given sufficient time and effort. That "effort" is what they wish to avoid and it is why they prefer a legally mandated backdoor that enables them to circumvent the encryption completely or unencrypted communications that they can tap into at will.

    That “effort” is what they wish to avoid

    Disagree.

    Breaking in is big business, a major new industry.

    Since about October 2015 US administration mouthpieces and political candidates have been laying the foundation for the public offering of a high tech company founded 10 years ago in Palo Alto by the founder of PayPal and an otherwise directionless philosophy major who studied Habermas at the Frankfurt School. CIA was and is a major sponsor of Palantir from the beginning; it now has a DC presence next door to NCTC in Arlington, VA, where Obama spoke a week or so ago. http://www.abc22now.com/news/top-stories/stories/-President-Obama-Counterterrorism-Effort-39-The-Very-Best-39-In-The-World-243167.shtml

    Hillary Clinton has gone so far as to name the company — Palantir — as one of the new companies that will “help keep us safe and interrupt ISIS use of social media.”

    http://www.franchiseherald.com/articles/47816/20151228/palantir-technologies-raises-another-880-million-now-valued-at-about-20-billion.htm

    Read More
  7. Its actually weird, in Japan the local police in small and mid-size towns pretty much knows about everything and everyone through the community grapevine, which is the reason why crime in Japan is so low and people actually prefer it this way.

    Read More
  8. @Philip Giraldi
    You are correct Kiza - the government can break into any encryption system given sufficient time and effort. That "effort" is what they wish to avoid and it is why they prefer a legally mandated backdoor that enables them to circumvent the encryption completely or unencrypted communications that they can tap into at will.

    I think encryption could be made effectively government proof. It is surely just a question of the number of digits. If computers can do a trillion digits a second testing and the encryption has another 12 (decimal) zeros the time to crack the encryption would surely be far too great – 1,000,000,000,000 ÷ 3600 hours. Or can someone convict me of gross error with expert testimony?

    On surer ground I suggest that surveillance should not be regarded as the problem but misuse of information obtained by covert surveillance. As deterrent on the one hand and compensation on the other massive damages awards facilitated by meticulous record keeping ought to help keep surveillance under control.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    P=NP? [set of verifiable problems if soluble by a computer in polynomial time] riddle in computer science/mathematics, has not yet been solved, but the formal proof is likely being worked on feverishly [Its a version of Godel's conjecture, IIT Bombay alum apparently had some success showing that P /= NP, which has later been toned down some]. If this is indeed solved then all encryptions are breakable.
  9. The fear of Big Brother will be almost a fond memory when Big Sister has been running the show for a couple of years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff
    Hillary Clinton is clearly the most dangerous person in any room.
  10. @Kiza

    Currently spokesmen for the national security community in the United States are complaining about commercially available apps that encrypt communications
     
    I would like to explain something regarding this debate. When the Government complains about encrypted communications, do not assume that encryption presents any barrier to the Government observing your communications. The problem is that, when all communications are encrypted, they cannot listen to everyone as easily as before encryption. The best analogy is to imagine a country in which everybody always kept the front door unlocked. The Government Goons could walk into any house any time they like. Encryption is like some or most people starting to lock up their houses. The Government Goons can stick pick the locks or bust the front door down, but this makes surveillance more obvious and it costs more time and money. With powerful computers and experts at its disposal, the Government can break almost any encryption, but at cost. One could say exactly the same for any skillful information thief.

    If you do not encrypt your communications, this is truly similar to leaving your front door unlocked. The thieves may be happy with the loot they got next door, but eventually they will reach you. The Government essentially wants you to leave your front door open so that anyone could walk in, including "the protectors".

    When you encrypt your communications, unless everybody does it, you are painting a target on your back.

    Read More
  11. I’m not so sure that even when a judge is involved to hear cases of probable cause and whatnot that we would be any better off. While there are still honorable men sitting in judge’s chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants.

    I don’t see any workable solution, alas.

    Great article though.

    Read More
    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    " . . . While there are still honorable men sitting in judge's chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants. . . ."

    The Bill of Rights, the laws, and "black letter" legal principles don't amount to shit unless the "lawyer who knew a politician" applies them without fear or favor. Of course, the civil liberties-destroying hacks on the U.S. Supreme Shysters, and judges like Jay Bybee (!), offer no reason for hope. . . .
    , @Wizard of Oz
    To a foreigner who nonetheless lives in an Anglophone Common Law jurisdiction the idea of judges being elected and, above all having to be re-elected, is appalling. We see judges as properly appointed by an Attorney General or other law officer like the Lord Chancellor (as he/she used to be) who is much more concerned with professional opinion than any contribution from senior political figures - though the whole government is commonly involved in the sense that it would be the Governor in Council or equivalent that makes the appointment. Their independence is guaranteed by tenure which is very hard to break before predetermined retiring age, if any. They may not drop long held prejudices but it would be unlikely that the decisions of a judge would have any relationship to the views or interests of whoever appointed him 10 years earlier (or 10 months usually).
    , @Carroll Price
    I disagree. Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. When it comes to promotions to the next level, what few honorable judges there are, stay where they are.
  12. We citizens of the US live in a Warfare/Police State.
    Until military spending in the US is cut by well over 50% it will not change and the surveillance state will continue to grow and the warfare state will murder millions more.

    Read More
  13. @Kiza

    Currently spokesmen for the national security community in the United States are complaining about commercially available apps that encrypt communications
     
    I would like to explain something regarding this debate. When the Government complains about encrypted communications, do not assume that encryption presents any barrier to the Government observing your communications. The problem is that, when all communications are encrypted, they cannot listen to everyone as easily as before encryption. The best analogy is to imagine a country in which everybody always kept the front door unlocked. The Government Goons could walk into any house any time they like. Encryption is like some or most people starting to lock up their houses. The Government Goons can stick pick the locks or bust the front door down, but this makes surveillance more obvious and it costs more time and money. With powerful computers and experts at its disposal, the Government can break almost any encryption, but at cost. One could say exactly the same for any skillful information thief.

    If you do not encrypt your communications, this is truly similar to leaving your front door unlocked. The thieves may be happy with the loot they got next door, but eventually they will reach you. The Government essentially wants you to leave your front door open so that anyone could walk in, including "the protectors".

    alexander and Kiza – The more people who understand your thoughts, the safer we are in the long run. Giving up our liberties to make law enforcement’s job easier is insanity.

    Read More
  14. not only is DC watching, listening, reading, collecting,

    DC is stealing, murdering, lying, warmongering.

    so many wishes for 2016

    none will get better

    only worse

    amurderka is the true nazi state (with israel) that jewry has created germany to have been.

    jewry/DC is the the true hitler of jewry’s fevered imagination. not poor adolph.

    Read More
  15. Terror is a tool used by the weak against the strong, manifested in our generation by

    I don’t think so. I think terrorism is a tool used by the strong. It’s typically state sponsored. Who funds ISIS?

    non-state actors who ultimately seek to change governments by using fear as a weapon.

    Aren’t you just casually introducing assumptions here that you never demonstrated? How do you know they’re “non-state actors”?

    The fact is that there is a real research literature on these questions that argues that these events are orchestrated by State actors. Now, if all those researchers are wrong, you surely have to present some argument that they are wrong. (And I mean, a real argument, not just saying “Oh, those guys are conspiracy theorists!”)

    But not only that, there is a very clear precedent for this sort of wave of terrorism being false flag. that is Operation Gladio in Italy. It is well established that this was false flag terrorism.

    The United States experiences international as opposed to domestic terrorism because it is waging a series of wars in a number of predominantly Muslim nations overseas.

    Well, again, that’s just one theory. The other theory is that the political faction behind the wars on Muslim countries perpetrate false flag terrorism to facilitate their wars. If that is the case, you’ve got your causality ass backwards.

    Now, obviously I subscribe to the alternate theory, that this is Gladio B essentially. It seems to be what fits the facts. But if you argue the other side, you have to make an argument, it seems to me.

    So, from my perspective, your article is just a complete misdirection. The real fundamental issue is that none of the State surveillance is going to work to stop these terrorist incidents if they are State operations in the first place! If, broadly speaking, it’s the very same State actors who have the surveillance powers who are carrying out these acts, then obviously giving these same people enhanced surveillance powers won’t stop these incidents! Of course not! That’s the real point, no?

    Read More
  16. @Wizard of Oz
    I think encryption could be made effectively government proof. It is surely just a question of the number of digits. If computers can do a trillion digits a second testing and the encryption has another 12 (decimal) zeros the time to crack the encryption would surely be far too great - 1,000,000,000,000 ÷ 3600 hours. Or can someone convict me of gross error with expert testimony?

    On surer ground I suggest that surveillance should not be regarded as the problem but misuse of information obtained by covert surveillance. As deterrent on the one hand and compensation on the other massive damages awards facilitated by meticulous record keeping ought to help keep surveillance under control.

    P=NP? [set of verifiable problems if soluble by a computer in polynomial time] riddle in computer science/mathematics, has not yet been solved, but the formal proof is likely being worked on feverishly [Its a version of Godel's conjecture, IIT Bombay alum apparently had some success showing that P /= NP, which has later been toned down some]. If this is indeed solved then all encryptions are breakable.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    P=NP?
     
    For those who are unfamiliar with these terms, here's a high level definition:

    The P versus NP problem... asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_versus_NP_problem
     
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you Sam for the flattery. I gave up the idea of being a mathematician about the age of 13 when I read about Gauss as a boy in Bell's "Men of Mathematics" [*could* that sexist title be correctly remembered?]. But I did notice that "polynomial" was the key word. Before I turned to Wikip geokat62 assisted with a link from which I linked to the article on polynomial in this context and decided after a while not to use up the mental energy needed for about three years tussle with the tax man.

    But I infer that we are a long way from being able to crack all encryptions because it is my understanding that "polynomial" effectually means finite and possibly non-exponential.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you Sam for the flattery. I gave up the idea of being a mathematician about the age of 13 when I read about Gauss as a boy in Bell's "Men of Mathematics" [*could* that sexist title be correctly remembered?]. But I did notice that "polynomial" was the key word. Before I turned to Wikip geokat62 assisted with a link from which I linked to the article on polynomial in this context and decided after a while not to use up the mental energy needed for about three years tussle with the tax man.

    But I infer that we are a long way from being able to crack all encryptions because it is my understanding that "polynomial" effectually means finite and possibly non-exponential.
  17. @JEC
    The fear of Big Brother will be almost a fond memory when Big Sister has been running the show for a couple of years.

    Hillary Clinton is clearly the most dangerous person in any room.

    Read More
  18. Do you government lovers out there realize how many trillions of hours of people’s lives are wasted each year dealing with the evil insanity that is government? Government has always been everything bad in society writ large and it always will be.

    You, the idiots who want government, are the problem, not government itself.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    What do you include within the definition of "government" that is the problem?

    For example, I have long thought there was much to be said for mercenary armies whose soldiers are at least likely to keep POWs alive and not act out of ethnic hate. But are they part of government or only the employing paymaster bureaucrats and their bosses?

    Put the other way what are the necessary features of government that you would concede? And if it would be different for tiny Bhutan, homogeneous Japan or vast and multiracial USA or Russia what would be the decisive reasons for necessary difference?
  19. curious, where are all the americans in the cia, nsa, fbi, others?
    how easily these “patriots” lost sight of the constitution and became thugs.
    give ‘em a pay check and several doses of lies and we have programmed robots with power.

    figured at least a few traitors would end up in the potomac.

    apparently only a gay bradley manning has balls enough to be a man while all the above put him/her into prison.

    Read More
  20. Why is the NSA controlled by generals and admirals – why is the US military spying on US citizens.

    Isn’t there a law against military incursion into private citizens affairs?

    Read More
  21. good stuff as usual

    I just don’t like the word ‘terror’ being used exclusively to describe what non-governmental criminals do.

    When the Stern and Irgun gangs were bombing hotels and butchering villagers, it was called terrorism, and that’s what they were doing, trying to instill a general sense of terror in their victims in order to achieve submission to their agenda. But how is that any different now that they’re doing the same thing these days in Gaza? As the white phosphorus burns the children’s flesh, is it any less terrifying that it’s being done by a recognized (at least by some) government? The intention is still the same, to use terror to effect submission. But why is it called terror only when non-recognized governments do it?

    What was Shock and Awe if not terror[ism]? Certainly it was intended to and did instill widespread terror in the general public to, how did you put it.. “.. seek to change governments by using fear as a weapon.” But it’s not terror[ism]?

    When our government assassinated Michael Hastings in a fireball, was that not terrorism? To terrify any other journalists that might want to print stories that could bring the terrorists in DC down?

    Either the word “terror” means what it means or it doesn’t. And certainly what was done to Fallujah was terrifying, and at least as murderous and criminal as anything any lone ‘terrorist’ has ever done.

    but I guess that’s all just semantics

    In the upcoming election year, when all of the House of Representatives and many Senators will be elected as well as the president, it is essential that candidates be made aware that the abuse of power and its encroachment on personal freedoms that has taken place over the past fifteen years can no longer be tolerated.

    Personally, I like to think that any politician that would betray his oath to our Constitution would be terrified to do so. Literally.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ......

    On December 29, 2015, Israel’s Supreme Court of Appeal showered its Talmudic mercy over former PM Ehud Olmert (2006-09) by reducing his jail term from six years to 18 months. Olmert must be counting his blessing of being ‘G-d’s Chosen People’ considering more than 700 Palestinian minors are caged in Israel’s rotten jail cells without any trail.

    Eighteen months ago, the Supreme Court had sentenced Olmert for six year over charges of receiving millions of shekels in bribery as Mayor of Jerusalem (1993-2003).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/12/30/ex-israeli-pm-goes-to-prison/
  22. @Sam Shama
    P=NP? [set of verifiable problems if soluble by a computer in polynomial time] riddle in computer science/mathematics, has not yet been solved, but the formal proof is likely being worked on feverishly [Its a version of Godel's conjecture, IIT Bombay alum apparently had some success showing that P /= NP, which has later been toned down some]. If this is indeed solved then all encryptions are breakable.

    P=NP?

    For those who are unfamiliar with these terms, here’s a high level definition:

    The P versus NP problem… asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_versus_NP_problem

    Read More
  23. @Drapetomaniac
    Do you government lovers out there realize how many trillions of hours of people's lives are wasted each year dealing with the evil insanity that is government? Government has always been everything bad in society writ large and it always will be.

    You, the idiots who want government, are the problem, not government itself.

    What do you include within the definition of “government” that is the problem?

    For example, I have long thought there was much to be said for mercenary armies whose soldiers are at least likely to keep POWs alive and not act out of ethnic hate. But are they part of government or only the employing paymaster bureaucrats and their bosses?

    Put the other way what are the necessary features of government that you would concede? And if it would be different for tiny Bhutan, homogeneous Japan or vast and multiracial USA or Russia what would be the decisive reasons for necessary difference?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    Government lovers = the idiot mob that that turns everyone's life over to the psychopaths that are called government.

    There are no necessary features of government. The tiny benefit that government accidentally produces can be provide by a free market and if you don't agree then allow those who do to be free of your need to 'govern' them.

    Of course government lovers would loathe to do that. Oh, the moral indignation.
  24. @Philip Giraldi
    You are correct Kiza - the government can break into any encryption system given sufficient time and effort. That "effort" is what they wish to avoid and it is why they prefer a legally mandated backdoor that enables them to circumvent the encryption completely or unencrypted communications that they can tap into at will.

    Following up with the analogy of encryption being like a lock on your door and having two options to open:
    1) break down the front door – its equivalent in the information world is “brute-force attack”, using computing power to find a key or a password, or
    2) pick the lock – its equivalent in the information world is “intelligent attack”, knowing the weakness of the lock/encryption algorithm and using this knowledge to open.

    Also, remembering that there are three parties involved in this game:
    1) you, the owner of information
    2) government, which wants to have your information
    3) information thieves, who want to use your information.

    The information thieves usually do not have resources to do brute-force breaking, although most information thieves are opportunists who use weak passwords (equivalent to a window on your house left open) to break in.

    A legally mandated backdoor, also called a master-key, is a major problem for multiple reasons:
    1) even a confirmation that a backdoor exists is most useful to the information thieves to try to find it,
    2) a back-door/master-key breaks the pattern, creates wrinkles in the pattern of encryption and usually leaves traces behind, which can help with intelligent breaking,
    3) governments are not famous for information security – who safeguards the backdoor/master-key, who has access to it, under which conditions can this key be used (imagine a reverse Snowden),
    4) once a back-door is found by information thieves, all encryption of this same kind has been picked; who will pay the cost of replacement, which could run into many hundreds of millions of dollars, even billions,
    5) an encryption back door becomes a holly grail for any party wanting to have access to a broad scope of information – from foreign intelligence to information thieves.

    Overall, a built-in back-door/master-key is a terribly, terribly bad idea. This is even if we could trust the Government to use it only for fighting terrorism and not for political and revenue purposes. Just remember the accusations that the Democrats in the IRS forced audits on the Republicans or vice versa.

    Therefore, encryption back-door is direct enabler of a surveillance state, effectively, a repackaged ban on encryption.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    Hi Kiza

    I went looking for a story from some years back on an osx fix that apple had left unrepaired for years. Didn't find it but did find this...

    http://www.theheraldbusinessjournal.com/article/20141112/BIZ02/141119611

    ...on system vulnerabilities that went 'undetected' for decades.

    My observation would be, by the time personalities like James Comey are demanding 100% access, likely it's a smokescreen and they've probably had access already for a very long time.

    Insofar as encryption, no matter how sophisticated or strong, wouldn't it only require a simple key-log trojan to be defeated?

    My assumption has been (for a very long time) if the government wants it, they have it. On the other hand, 'they' won't always know what they want; insofar as any individuals who've, for whatever reasons or circumstance, managed to keep their profile under the radar. There is simply too much stuff to look through.
  25. @Sam Shama
    P=NP? [set of verifiable problems if soluble by a computer in polynomial time] riddle in computer science/mathematics, has not yet been solved, but the formal proof is likely being worked on feverishly [Its a version of Godel's conjecture, IIT Bombay alum apparently had some success showing that P /= NP, which has later been toned down some]. If this is indeed solved then all encryptions are breakable.

    Thank you Sam for the flattery. I gave up the idea of being a mathematician about the age of 13 when I read about Gauss as a boy in Bell’s “Men of Mathematics” [*could* that sexist title be correctly remembered?]. But I did notice that “polynomial” was the key word. Before I turned to Wikip geokat62 assisted with a link from which I linked to the article on polynomial in this context and decided after a while not to use up the mental energy needed for about three years tussle with the tax man.

    But I infer that we are a long way from being able to crack all encryptions because it is my understanding that “polynomial” effectually means finite and possibly non-exponential.

    Read More
  26. @Sam Shama
    P=NP? [set of verifiable problems if soluble by a computer in polynomial time] riddle in computer science/mathematics, has not yet been solved, but the formal proof is likely being worked on feverishly [Its a version of Godel's conjecture, IIT Bombay alum apparently had some success showing that P /= NP, which has later been toned down some]. If this is indeed solved then all encryptions are breakable.

    Thank you Sam for the flattery. I gave up the idea of being a mathematician about the age of 13 when I read about Gauss as a boy in Bell’s “Men of Mathematics” [*could* that sexist title be correctly remembered?]. But I did notice that “polynomial” was the key word. Before I turned to Wikip geokat62 assisted with a link from which I linked to the article on polynomial in this context and decided after a while not to use up the mental energy needed for about three years tussle with the tax man.

    But I infer that we are a long way from being able to crack all encryptions because it is my understanding that “polynomial” effectually means finite and possibly non-exponential.

    Read More
  27. @geokat62

    P=NP?
     
    For those who are unfamiliar with these terms, here's a high level definition:

    The P versus NP problem... asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_versus_NP_problem
     

    Thanks. See #24

    Read More
  28. @Rurik
    good stuff as usual

    I just don't like the word 'terror' being used exclusively to describe what non-governmental criminals do.

    When the Stern and Irgun gangs were bombing hotels and butchering villagers, it was called terrorism, and that's what they were doing, trying to instill a general sense of terror in their victims in order to achieve submission to their agenda. But how is that any different now that they're doing the same thing these days in Gaza? As the white phosphorus burns the children's flesh, is it any less terrifying that it's being done by a recognized (at least by some) government? The intention is still the same, to use terror to effect submission. But why is it called terror only when non-recognized governments do it?

    What was Shock and Awe if not terror[ism]? Certainly it was intended to and did instill widespread terror in the general public to, how did you put it.. ".. seek to change governments by using fear as a weapon." But it's not terror[ism]?

    When our government assassinated Michael Hastings in a fireball, was that not terrorism? To terrify any other journalists that might want to print stories that could bring the terrorists in DC down?

    Either the word "terror" means what it means or it doesn't. And certainly what was done to Fallujah was terrifying, and at least as murderous and criminal as anything any lone 'terrorist' has ever done.

    but I guess that's all just semantics

    In the upcoming election year, when all of the House of Representatives and many Senators will be elected as well as the president, it is essential that candidates be made aware that the abuse of power and its encroachment on personal freedoms that has taken place over the past fifteen years can no longer be tolerated.
     
    Personally, I like to think that any politician that would betray his oath to our Constitution would be terrified to do so. Literally.

    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ……

    On December 29, 2015, Israel’s Supreme Court of Appeal showered its Talmudic mercy over former PM Ehud Olmert (2006-09) by reducing his jail term from six years to 18 months. Olmert must be counting his blessing of being ‘G-d’s Chosen People’ considering more than 700 Palestinian minors are caged in Israel’s rotten jail cells without any trail.

    Eighteen months ago, the Supreme Court had sentenced Olmert for six year over charges of receiving millions of shekels in bribery as Mayor of Jerusalem (1993-2003).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/12/30/ex-israeli-pm-goes-to-prison/

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    You know Rehmat,

    I wonder if you took a poll in the United States...an honest poll....and asked every American whether they thought it would constitute a "crime" for a twelve year old kid to pick up a stone and throw it at the bulldozer of an occupying army, coming onto his families property to bulldoze his families home that had been in his family for 12 generations ?

    I wonder what they would say....don't you?

    , @Sam Shama
    Rehmat,

    First, most of your comment is off-topic.
    Are you disappointed that Olmert's sentence was reduced? That happened simply due to a lack of evidence in one of the several complaints. Israel has a very well functioning judiciary [unlike some of the political parties, of which, I am not an admirer in the least].

    Where do you hail from [USA? Pakistan, Turkey?] and has your country ever witnessed a President or a PM getting gaoled?

    Show me a nation that has a flawless judiciary. You might also know this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran

    My post has nothing in disagreement regarding the the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons - a condition I deplore - but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary, one which apparently, failed to punish a top politician is transparently and wilfully mendacious.

    , @Rurik

    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ……
     
    I agree Rehmat

    even more mysterious is people's eternal fealty to the existence of their Gods in the face of all evidence to the contrary

    But then, how much of religion is based on eternal and spiritual truths vs. how much is raw tribalism?

    How much of the hostility between Sunnis and Shiites is a consequence of the fact that most Sunnis are ethically Arabs and most Shiites are ethically Persians or Alawites or others?

    Did the animals who tortured Gadhafi to death do so because he was an apostate to Islam, or because of ancient and intractable tribal hostilities?

    You seem like the perfect person to make these queries to, if you don't mine my asking..
  29. @Rehmat
    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ......

    On December 29, 2015, Israel’s Supreme Court of Appeal showered its Talmudic mercy over former PM Ehud Olmert (2006-09) by reducing his jail term from six years to 18 months. Olmert must be counting his blessing of being ‘G-d’s Chosen People’ considering more than 700 Palestinian minors are caged in Israel’s rotten jail cells without any trail.

    Eighteen months ago, the Supreme Court had sentenced Olmert for six year over charges of receiving millions of shekels in bribery as Mayor of Jerusalem (1993-2003).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/12/30/ex-israeli-pm-goes-to-prison/

    You know Rehmat,

    I wonder if you took a poll in the United States…an honest poll….and asked every American whether they thought it would constitute a “crime” for a twelve year old kid to pick up a stone and throw it at the bulldozer of an occupying army, coming onto his families property to bulldoze his families home that had been in his family for 12 generations ?

    I wonder what they would say….don’t you?

    Read More
  30. Your wish is my command!

    “Likewise for the glut of extraneous information. With so much useless information clouding your psyche, it is nearly impossible to make an informed and rational decision. We are lead to believe, by various sources, that every story has multiple explanations, whether or not that is the case. This information overload may eventually turn off the receiver to such a degree that they simply stop listening. With each person shutting down mentally at the introduction of more meaningless information, the populace becomes that much more apathetic, until you have a society best described as numb.” http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Nov06/Adams21.htm

    Apply Pink Floyd logic and you are now comfotably numb and you can file this one under N. You do the ashes to ashes and we’ll do the dust to dust.

    “Last stop on a long journey, as yet another human being returns to the vast nothingness that is the beginning and intothe dust that is always the end.”

    Read More
  31. @schmenz
    I'm not so sure that even when a judge is involved to hear cases of probable cause and whatnot that we would be any better off. While there are still honorable men sitting in judge's chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants.

    I don't see any workable solution, alas.

    Great article though.

    ” . . . While there are still honorable men sitting in judge’s chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants. . . .”

    The Bill of Rights, the laws, and “black letter” legal principles don’t amount to shit unless the “lawyer who knew a politician” applies them without fear or favor. Of course, the civil liberties-destroying hacks on the U.S. Supreme Shysters, and judges like Jay Bybee (!), offer no reason for hope. . . .

    Read More
    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Ron, if you are tuned in, how is "Orville H. Larson" able to Agree with "Orville H. Larson"?
  32. “it is essential that candidates be made aware that the abuse of power and its encroachment on personal freedoms that has taken place over the past fifteen years can no longer be tolerated.”

    If the candidates’ and mainstream media agenda were the same as yours and mine, Phil, it would be essential that abuses of power no longer be tolerated. Instead it’s not just optional, but opt-out. The objective of the best bankrolled candidates is to seek to encroach ever more on our liberties, to further abuse our freedoms in order to enhance their power and ultimately those of their sponsors.

    Read More
  33. @Wizard of Oz
    What do you include within the definition of "government" that is the problem?

    For example, I have long thought there was much to be said for mercenary armies whose soldiers are at least likely to keep POWs alive and not act out of ethnic hate. But are they part of government or only the employing paymaster bureaucrats and their bosses?

    Put the other way what are the necessary features of government that you would concede? And if it would be different for tiny Bhutan, homogeneous Japan or vast and multiracial USA or Russia what would be the decisive reasons for necessary difference?

    Government lovers = the idiot mob that that turns everyone’s life over to the psychopaths that are called government.

    There are no necessary features of government. The tiny benefit that government accidentally produces can be provide by a free market and if you don’t agree then allow those who do to be free of your need to ‘govern’ them.

    Of course government lovers would loathe to do that. Oh, the moral indignation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Your reply reminds me of the splendid bit of Irishry:

    A. "Can you please tell me the way from here to Dublin"
    B. "Well I wouldn't be starting from here".

    In your case I had better not ask you to say what is needed for good government.
  34. @Drapetomaniac
    Government lovers = the idiot mob that that turns everyone's life over to the psychopaths that are called government.

    There are no necessary features of government. The tiny benefit that government accidentally produces can be provide by a free market and if you don't agree then allow those who do to be free of your need to 'govern' them.

    Of course government lovers would loathe to do that. Oh, the moral indignation.

    Your reply reminds me of the splendid bit of Irishry:

    A. “Can you please tell me the way from here to Dublin”
    B. “Well I wouldn’t be starting from here”.

    In your case I had better not ask you to say what is needed for good government.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Bill Jones
    Several years ago I was driving in (I think it was Brazil) and asked a local for directions.
    What was given included "turn right at the tree where the policeman was killed".
  35. @Orville H. Larson
    " . . . While there are still honorable men sitting in judge's chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants. . . ."

    The Bill of Rights, the laws, and "black letter" legal principles don't amount to shit unless the "lawyer who knew a politician" applies them without fear or favor. Of course, the civil liberties-destroying hacks on the U.S. Supreme Shysters, and judges like Jay Bybee (!), offer no reason for hope. . . .

    Ron, if you are tuned in, how is “Orville H. Larson” able to Agree with “Orville H. Larson”?

    Read More
  36. @schmenz
    I'm not so sure that even when a judge is involved to hear cases of probable cause and whatnot that we would be any better off. While there are still honorable men sitting in judge's chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants.

    I don't see any workable solution, alas.

    Great article though.

    To a foreigner who nonetheless lives in an Anglophone Common Law jurisdiction the idea of judges being elected and, above all having to be re-elected, is appalling. We see judges as properly appointed by an Attorney General or other law officer like the Lord Chancellor (as he/she used to be) who is much more concerned with professional opinion than any contribution from senior political figures – though the whole government is commonly involved in the sense that it would be the Governor in Council or equivalent that makes the appointment. Their independence is guaranteed by tenure which is very hard to break before predetermined retiring age, if any. They may not drop long held prejudices but it would be unlikely that the decisions of a judge would have any relationship to the views or interests of whoever appointed him 10 years earlier (or 10 months usually).

    Read More
  37. @Kiza
    Following up with the analogy of encryption being like a lock on your door and having two options to open:
    1) break down the front door - its equivalent in the information world is "brute-force attack", using computing power to find a key or a password, or
    2) pick the lock - its equivalent in the information world is "intelligent attack", knowing the weakness of the lock/encryption algorithm and using this knowledge to open.

    Also, remembering that there are three parties involved in this game:
    1) you, the owner of information
    2) government, which wants to have your information
    3) information thieves, who want to use your information.

    The information thieves usually do not have resources to do brute-force breaking, although most information thieves are opportunists who use weak passwords (equivalent to a window on your house left open) to break in.

    A legally mandated backdoor, also called a master-key, is a major problem for multiple reasons:
    1) even a confirmation that a backdoor exists is most useful to the information thieves to try to find it,
    2) a back-door/master-key breaks the pattern, creates wrinkles in the pattern of encryption and usually leaves traces behind, which can help with intelligent breaking,
    3) governments are not famous for information security - who safeguards the backdoor/master-key, who has access to it, under which conditions can this key be used (imagine a reverse Snowden),
    4) once a back-door is found by information thieves, all encryption of this same kind has been picked; who will pay the cost of replacement, which could run into many hundreds of millions of dollars, even billions,
    5) an encryption back door becomes a holly grail for any party wanting to have access to a broad scope of information - from foreign intelligence to information thieves.

    Overall, a built-in back-door/master-key is a terribly, terribly bad idea. This is even if we could trust the Government to use it only for fighting terrorism and not for political and revenue purposes. Just remember the accusations that the Democrats in the IRS forced audits on the Republicans or vice versa.

    Therefore, encryption back-door is direct enabler of a surveillance state, effectively, a repackaged ban on encryption.

    Hi Kiza

    I went looking for a story from some years back on an osx fix that apple had left unrepaired for years. Didn’t find it but did find this…

    http://www.theheraldbusinessjournal.com/article/20141112/BIZ02/141119611

    …on system vulnerabilities that went ‘undetected’ for decades.

    My observation would be, by the time personalities like James Comey are demanding 100% access, likely it’s a smokescreen and they’ve probably had access already for a very long time.

    Insofar as encryption, no matter how sophisticated or strong, wouldn’t it only require a simple key-log trojan to be defeated?

    My assumption has been (for a very long time) if the government wants it, they have it. On the other hand, ‘they’ won’t always know what they want; insofar as any individuals who’ve, for whatever reasons or circumstance, managed to keep their profile under the radar. There is simply too much stuff to look through.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    You over-rate Federal employees, with State employees being far worse. If you ever meet and converse with a few, you quickly realize that most are well below average intelligence and most are entirely void of ambition. Which explains why working for the government is one of the few things they could ever be successful at doing.
  38. As much as my knowledge stretches you are correct on all your assumptions. Especially that back doors have existed as long as commercial encryption products. It worked on a simple principle that if your product did not have a back door for the authorities, then your company would get tax audited etc. To my knowledge only the open source PGP software did not have any intentional back door.

    Almost all encryption is also using a password, thus dropping a key-logger onto target’s computer is one of the simplest ways to circumvent, instead of breaking, the encryption.

    There is a belief that both DOS/Windows and OSX have back doors for the authorities, probably other computer operating systems as well.

    However, Comey is truthful that he wants a super-easy access to everybody’s communications, because they do not want to have to break encryption before storing info. If they can get a back-door to all encrypted communications, then it becomes the same for them as if there was no encryption. I believe that they are even more interested in communications then in files on users’ computers.

    Finally, encryption is a dual use technology, treated similarly to nuclear technology. The encryption used commercially (e.g. in browsers) is a significantly lower grade than the military encryption. They want commercial encryption to be strong enough to protect us from low level information thieves, but not strong enough to make it difficult or impossible for them to monitor and collect.

    Read More
  39. @geokat62

    P=NP?
     
    For those who are unfamiliar with these terms, here's a high level definition:

    The P versus NP problem... asks whether every problem whose solution can be quickly verified by a computer can also be quickly solved by a computer.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/P_versus_NP_problem
     

    Thanks Geo, for the link.

    Read More
  40. @Rehmat
    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ......

    On December 29, 2015, Israel’s Supreme Court of Appeal showered its Talmudic mercy over former PM Ehud Olmert (2006-09) by reducing his jail term from six years to 18 months. Olmert must be counting his blessing of being ‘G-d’s Chosen People’ considering more than 700 Palestinian minors are caged in Israel’s rotten jail cells without any trail.

    Eighteen months ago, the Supreme Court had sentenced Olmert for six year over charges of receiving millions of shekels in bribery as Mayor of Jerusalem (1993-2003).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/12/30/ex-israeli-pm-goes-to-prison/

    Rehmat,

    First, most of your comment is off-topic.
    Are you disappointed that Olmert’s sentence was reduced? That happened simply due to a lack of evidence in one of the several complaints. Israel has a very well functioning judiciary [unlike some of the political parties, of which, I am not an admirer in the least].

    Where do you hail from [USA? Pakistan, Turkey?] and has your country ever witnessed a President or a PM getting gaoled?

    Show me a nation that has a flawless judiciary. You might also know this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran

    My post has nothing in disagreement regarding the the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons – a condition I deplore – but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary, one which apparently, failed to punish a top politician is transparently and wilfully mendacious.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hey Sam,

    Nice to see you back and in the mosh pit of ideas here at the Unz.

    the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons – a condition I deplore – but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary..
     
    um, well.. if your judiciary doesn't consider the people whom it presumes to judge, as even having any rights at all, well then I for one have no problem at all considering such a "judiciary" as at least "fatally compromised", indeed in the extreme.

    I kind of sense that there are some who believe that the rights of someone like Olmert are somehow rather more sacrosanct than the rights of a Palestinian teenager picked up for being a Palestinian teenager and subjected to torture and indefinite detention with no rights to a lawyer or anything else but the capricious and whims of his jailers.

    For me calling such a "judicial" system flawed is an understatement. I'd prefer to call it a stain upon the very idea of justice. A mockery of every notion of human justice and fairness. A bitter reminder that in some parts of the world there is no such thing as even the pretense of justice. And any suggestion to the contrary, I'd even call "willfully mendacious".
    , @Ronald Thomas West
    Hi again Sam

    It was a pleasure to see Olmert will be going to jail. A rare event outside of coup governments jailing or killing their predecessors as an insurance policy. Insofar as comparisons respecting 'democracy' and the 'rule of law' in relation to impunity, it recalls Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzalez indicted by a Texas grand jury for racketeering and outcome where Cheney didn't even bother to send a lawyer (he apparently only needed make a phone call, at most) to get the indictment thrown out... it was dismissed with a warning from the judge to the prosecutor to "never" pursue the case again. By comparison, Israeli justice looks pretty good just now with Olmert reporting to Israel's penal system for incarceration. Even if he gets the 'country club' detention, it still says something.

    On account of Bibi & company's behaviors, people from the outside tend to forget Israelis are not entirely made up of dyed in the wool criminals and it's always been a habit of people in the west to throw stones from their glass houses. Would I like to see certain Israeli figures jailed for crimes against the Palestinians? Sure. Will that happen? It doesn't seem likely, but it seem just as unlikely we will see the likes of Bush and Blair jailed for crimes against the Iraqis resulting in perhaps as many as a million collateral deaths. Democracy is a beast in its own right where too often it is sociopaths are those most motivated to rise & rule. And when they do, whether Bibi outsourcing his assassinations of Iranians nuclear scientists to MeK via blackmail, or Obama meeting with John Brennan on "Kill List Tuesdays" when deciding who will live or die in a regime of extrajudicial assassinations, it a hard fact one is no superior to the other in relation to the rule of law.

    Then, we can look at the institution of law by comparison. In the USA SCOTUS Chief Justice John Roberts appoints judges to the extra-constitutional FISA court and no one utters a word about it, not so much as any pointed criticism from any fellow SC justice, nothing from the bar association head, no senator, NOT ONE SINGLE person of significance in the machine stands up and says one word. It can't hurt to mention here Chief Justice Roberts is only once removed from Dick Cheney, Robert's champion for his nomination and confirmation to the United States Supreme Court had been Cheney's Vice Presidential legal counsel Shannen Coffin (a close personal friend of Roberts.)

    In Israel, on the other hand, rather than a totally co-opted (corrupted) Supreme Court, you have a court that is undermined and often ignored by corrupt politicians (and in some cases my recollection is, by the military.) Here is a fair essay on the matter.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/tel-aviv-government-refuses-to-implement-israeli-supreme-court-ruling/20153

    The sharp prejudice we see in the comments is hardly fair to Israel by comparison to say, Britain or the USA. All are corrupt. All struggle with similar democratic issues. If the shrill left in the USA can be safely ignored (those few sane persons surviving on the right may as well have drowned for all the opportunity they have to be heard), in Israel those sane voices are simply not reported on outside of Israel. In the meanwhile, you're engaging people here at Unz with little more than anti-Semitic reptilian reflex with semi-rational voice over, little different to our politicians. Hardly balanced or fair but then life has never been balanced or fair... here is a tongue-in-check example:

    "Both the elves and the reindeer made another accusation against Claus: that he discriminated in favour of children from rich families, who invariably got better and more expensive gifts than those of poor families, no matter how good or bad they’d been" (credit to 'Bill the Butcher')

    My point is, in matters of impunity, we're all more or less equal. Olmert goes to jail, that's a positive, but Bibi ignores and undermines the Israeli Supreme Court. In the USA? No one goes to jail and the Supreme Court appears to be in the pocket of the criminal regime with upholding the 'national security' and 'state secrets' doctrines which determine the most egregious crimes will never be heard before a competent jurisdiction and no one challenges the criminally complicit chief justice who appoint judges to a patently unconstitutional FISA institution. On top of that, I doubt democracy can be salvaged in a scenario where the populaces are becoming so radicalized, demagogues bring the greatest appeal to those who've yet to disengage (tune out) on the right or in the alternative, on the left are so self deceived they hold up a 70 years old murderer of entire nations as a logical choice for a first female president (following on the extrajudicial assassinations of a 'Black' or 'nobel drone' president who has always been more culturally White than Black.)

    I would offer the following quote to describe western culture generally, most of the authors at Unz and almost the entire body of commenters here at Phil's blog..

    “Their judgment was based more upon blind wishing than upon any sound pre-vision; for it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use sovereign reason to thrust aside what they do not fancy” -Thucydides

    ...aside from those Christian supremacist and other knee-jerk anti-Semites who're actually somewhat a step lower than the use of sovereign reason in their self-deceit:

    “You can’t convince a chimpanzee to give you a banana with the promise it will get 20 more bananas in chimpanzee heaven. It won’t do it. But humans will” -Yuval Noah Harari

  41. @Rehmat
    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ......

    On December 29, 2015, Israel’s Supreme Court of Appeal showered its Talmudic mercy over former PM Ehud Olmert (2006-09) by reducing his jail term from six years to 18 months. Olmert must be counting his blessing of being ‘G-d’s Chosen People’ considering more than 700 Palestinian minors are caged in Israel’s rotten jail cells without any trail.

    Eighteen months ago, the Supreme Court had sentenced Olmert for six year over charges of receiving millions of shekels in bribery as Mayor of Jerusalem (1993-2003).

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/12/30/ex-israeli-pm-goes-to-prison/

    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ……

    I agree Rehmat

    even more mysterious is people’s eternal fealty to the existence of their Gods in the face of all evidence to the contrary

    But then, how much of religion is based on eternal and spiritual truths vs. how much is raw tribalism?

    How much of the hostility between Sunnis and Shiites is a consequence of the fact that most Sunnis are ethically Arabs and most Shiites are ethically Persians or Alawites or others?

    Did the animals who tortured Gadhafi to death do so because he was an apostate to Islam, or because of ancient and intractable tribal hostilities?

    You seem like the perfect person to make these queries to, if you don’t mine my asking..

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting question about assessing whether religion or ethnicity is the bigger dividing criterion BUT... I think your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs I believe. But, more to the point is the fact that Pakistan is overwhelmingly Sunni and has a bigger population than the Arab countries. Also Turkey is predominantly Sunni and, maybe, though I am not sure, Indonesia which has the biggest Muslim population of any single country I believe. Bangladesh?? Not Shia anyway. The Kurds are more Kurd than Sunni I guess and Hamas is probably Sunni but supported by Iran. I forgot Egypt which I suppose is mostly Sunni and Arab but no bigger than Turkey so my question re premise remains.
  42. @Sam Shama
    Rehmat,

    First, most of your comment is off-topic.
    Are you disappointed that Olmert's sentence was reduced? That happened simply due to a lack of evidence in one of the several complaints. Israel has a very well functioning judiciary [unlike some of the political parties, of which, I am not an admirer in the least].

    Where do you hail from [USA? Pakistan, Turkey?] and has your country ever witnessed a President or a PM getting gaoled?

    Show me a nation that has a flawless judiciary. You might also know this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran

    My post has nothing in disagreement regarding the the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons - a condition I deplore - but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary, one which apparently, failed to punish a top politician is transparently and wilfully mendacious.

    Hey Sam,

    Nice to see you back and in the mosh pit of ideas here at the Unz.

    the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons – a condition I deplore – but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary..

    um, well.. if your judiciary doesn’t consider the people whom it presumes to judge, as even having any rights at all, well then I for one have no problem at all considering such a “judiciary” as at least “fatally compromised”, indeed in the extreme.

    I kind of sense that there are some who believe that the rights of someone like Olmert are somehow rather more sacrosanct than the rights of a Palestinian teenager picked up for being a Palestinian teenager and subjected to torture and indefinite detention with no rights to a lawyer or anything else but the capricious and whims of his jailers.

    For me calling such a “judicial” system flawed is an understatement. I’d prefer to call it a stain upon the very idea of justice. A mockery of every notion of human justice and fairness. A bitter reminder that in some parts of the world there is no such thing as even the pretense of justice. And any suggestion to the contrary, I’d even call “willfully mendacious”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I am aware that your dearest wish is to inhabit in an Utopia of your own creation. I don't eagerly or patiently await the manufacture of your brand.

    In the meantime the premise of my comment was rather straightforward. In the case of Olmert, justice was delivered in spadefuls. That sort of thing tends not to happen in the ME, other than as the vengeful outcome of a military coup.

    [Also as far as I can recall, no POTUS or British PM has ever been incarcerated, do you? Nor could I search and find a Jewish or Christian judge of the Supreme Court in KSA, Iran, Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan. Nor, btw have I spotted you deploring the condition of justice in the said nations. Odd that.]

    Israeli law as it applies to Palestinian youth leaves much to be desired [ a separate matter altogether, and ought to be explored in the context of much of the history of Law actually], yet it is incumbent on those who wish not be gaoled, to not throw stones; on the other hand, if getting incarcerated is the goal, [a time-honoured political gesture], then stone-throwing is a rather efficient means to that end!

  43. Tim Cook of Apple says that sometime in the next 10 years or so, we’ll be transitioning to a fully digital system of money. That will take surveillance to a whole new level. They will be tracking every purchase you make and every place you make it.

    They will scan for whatever is the “undesirable behavior” of the given moment and if you’re one of the ones misbehaving, you’ll find your accounts and cards are shut down. You’ll probably need a lawyer to unscrew it for you – and it’ll probably take months – or more.

    If you have ever considered heading for the hills and becoming a survivalist, the time is now – while you can still take what you have with you.

    The founders were dealing with a King… ruling by divine right… and he was nowhere near as invasive and oppressive as the Federal government we already have. What’s around the corner is going to be even worse.

    Read More
  44. @Rurik
    Hey Sam,

    Nice to see you back and in the mosh pit of ideas here at the Unz.

    the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons – a condition I deplore – but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary..
     
    um, well.. if your judiciary doesn't consider the people whom it presumes to judge, as even having any rights at all, well then I for one have no problem at all considering such a "judiciary" as at least "fatally compromised", indeed in the extreme.

    I kind of sense that there are some who believe that the rights of someone like Olmert are somehow rather more sacrosanct than the rights of a Palestinian teenager picked up for being a Palestinian teenager and subjected to torture and indefinite detention with no rights to a lawyer or anything else but the capricious and whims of his jailers.

    For me calling such a "judicial" system flawed is an understatement. I'd prefer to call it a stain upon the very idea of justice. A mockery of every notion of human justice and fairness. A bitter reminder that in some parts of the world there is no such thing as even the pretense of justice. And any suggestion to the contrary, I'd even call "willfully mendacious".

    I am aware that your dearest wish is to inhabit in an Utopia of your own creation. I don’t eagerly or patiently await the manufacture of your brand.

    In the meantime the premise of my comment was rather straightforward. In the case of Olmert, justice was delivered in spadefuls. That sort of thing tends not to happen in the ME, other than as the vengeful outcome of a military coup.

    [Also as far as I can recall, no POTUS or British PM has ever been incarcerated, do you? Nor could I search and find a Jewish or Christian judge of the Supreme Court in KSA, Iran, Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan. Nor, btw have I spotted you deploring the condition of justice in the said nations. Odd that.]

    Israeli law as it applies to Palestinian youth leaves much to be desired [ a separate matter altogether, and ought to be explored in the context of much of the history of Law actually], yet it is incumbent on those who wish not be gaoled, to not throw stones; on the other hand, if getting incarcerated is the goal, [a time-honoured political gesture], then stone-throwing is a rather efficient means to that end!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Sam,

    Don't know about you Jews being so smart. Our Clinton president and his lovely wife have amassed 150 million personally and another 150 in their family foundation (slush fund). (Bill raped many women to boot. (Hillary too)). They will never see jail. Now that's a country!

    Art
  45. the manufacture of your brand.

    I suppose whatever that would be could be glimmered from the entirety of my posts here at the Unz. ~ Universal self-determination, wherever possible. Uniform justice and respect for human rights even including the rights of non-humans. – (I consider it appalling the way animals are treated as if they’re objects)

    A respect for the planet and all things with a iron imperative not to fuck it all up too much for those who will come after. That kind of thing. I guess you could call that ‘my brand’.

    In the meantime the premise of my comment was rather straightforward. In the case of Olmert, justice was delivered in spadefuls.

    I haven’t followed the case that closely, so if you say he was treated as he should have been, that’s good enough for me.

    Nor, btw have I spotted you deploring the condition of justice in the said nations. Odd that.]

    this is a common complaint, that too many people are too critical of Israel when others in the region are also guilty of human rights abuses. But what one must understand is that it wasn’t the West that imposed Islam on the Middle East, it was the West that imposed Israel on the Middle East, but it was done so because the intention was that Israel was to be a “shining light unto the nations”. A beacon of tolerance and Godliness and kindness and sort of like that Utopia you talk about. The Christian world was outraged at the cruelty of the Holocaust, and felt sympathy for the Jews of the Bible who were driven out by the Romans. So they put on blinders to the injustice done to the Palestinians and allowed the Jewish state, with the caveat that the Pals were to be treated with decency and have their own lands and state as well. But that’s not how the Jews are acting, are they? They trying to steal all the land and they treat the Palestinians horribly, so much so that it tweaks the very same sensibilities of the Christian West that were so horrified by the Holocaust. The West wanted to do something to make amends for the Holocaust, not create another one. So that is one of the reasons Israeli behavior is rightfully condemned. Also because the things they do, like “Cast Lead” and drop white phosphorous and shoot children for sport, and harvest organs from murdered teenagers and tolerate white slavery in the brothels and blow up little boys playing on the beach. I don’t see even the most repressive or reactionary Muslim governments in the Middle East doing things like that. Also it’s the sickening hypocrisy of Jews as they’re relentless in their finger pointing at the white Christian world for human rights abuses both real and imagined. We’re all supposed to genuflect as Bibi insinuates we’re all Nazis and we’re all guilty, while he has his boot on the necks of Palestinian women and children even as he lectures us all. It’s quite beyond the pale, this blindingly uber-obnoxious hypocrisy and arrogance or, what is it they call it.. chutzpa?

    yet it is incumbent on those who wish not be gaoled, to not throw stones; on the other hand, if getting incarcerated is the goal, [a time-honoured political gesture], then stone-throwing is a rather efficient means to that end!

    Your own word damn you Sam. Since every single person on the planet who isn’t under the thrall of that delusional sickness ZioNazism feels nothing but pity for the simple if futile acts of defiance by that indomitable human sprit that stands proudly resisting the eternal fiends of tyranny and oppression. From Gandhi to those men during the Hungarian resistance to the man standing in front of the Chinese tank. They are the ones humanity honors and looks up to. The Rachel Corries of the world, NOT the IDF bulldozer driver, (or his apologists).
    For a smart guy, you have a lot to learn about human nature Sam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    whatever that would be could be glimmered from the entirety of my posts here at the Unz. ~ Universal self-determination, wherever possible. Uniform justice and respect for human rights even including the rights of non-humans. – (I consider it appalling the way animals are treated as if they’re objects)
     
    So be it, and therefore you might consider delivering the arrows of that "Universal" wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?

    ....A beacon of tolerance and Godliness and kindness and sort of like that Utopia
     
    But...but I thought you White Christian Supremacists considered the Jewish G'd to be an entirely vengeful chappie. [I am not very religious, and think that the idea of a kind God has little or nothing to distinguish itself from the basic human quality of empathy - brushing aside altogether the inconvenient contradictory qualities]

    The Christian world was outraged at the cruelty of the Holocaust
     

    But, but....but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn. So everything you say after that, as it depends on the Holocaust is basically disingenuous.

    drop white phosphorous and shoot children for sport, and harvest organs from murdered teenagers and tolerate white slavery in the brothels and blow up little boys playing on the beach
     
    Use of white phosphorous was utterly reprehensible and illegal in urban/civilian areas. On an entirely separate matter, Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to "protect" these arsenals.

    Also it’s the sickening hypocrisy of Jews as they’re relentless in their finger pointing at the white Christian world for human rights abuses both real and imagined. We’re all supposed to genuflect as Bibi insinuates we’re all Nazis
     
    Is it true? Can you point me in the direction where a Jew or Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren't you Rurik the invincible? Are you a Nazi? Again from recollection you and S2C seemed to have been happily engaged in a danse de joie singing praises to the NSDAP.

    It’s quite beyond the pale, this blindingly uber-obnoxious hypocrisy and arrogance or, what is it they call it.. chutzpa?
     
    Is it called "self projection" perhaps?

    Your own word damn you Sam. Since every single person on the planet who isn’t under the thrall of that delusional sickness ZioNazism feels nothing but pity for the simple if futile acts of defiance by that indomitable human sprit that stands proudly resisting the eternal fiends of tyranny and oppression. From Gandhi to those men during the Hungarian resistance to the man standing in front of the Chinese tank. They are the ones humanity honors and looks up to. The Rachel Corries of the world, NOT the IDF bulldozer driver, (or his apologists).

     

    This is where hyperbole get the better of an otherwise reasonable argument. That the IDF is engaged in some form of repression is incontrovertible. Equating it to the systematic, brutal Nazi regime's methods does not a reasonable argument make. Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don't we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?

    I support a 1SS, in which Pals and Jews have equal rights under the law. I do not support affirmative action beyond a reasonable initial compensation, to a large swathe of the Pal population. For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea. Unfortunately I don't think you have any idea what the leadership of the Pals, or the Pals themselves are up to. I see some faint sounds of promise....however we shall see.

    "The indomitable human spirit" ....lofty sentiment, but its untrue.


    For a smart guy, you have a lot to learn about human nature Sam
     
    I have a great deal to learn about many things. I have been wrong about some aspects of the deep state. Understanding human nature? Not so much.
  46. @Sam Shama
    Rehmat,

    First, most of your comment is off-topic.
    Are you disappointed that Olmert's sentence was reduced? That happened simply due to a lack of evidence in one of the several complaints. Israel has a very well functioning judiciary [unlike some of the political parties, of which, I am not an admirer in the least].

    Where do you hail from [USA? Pakistan, Turkey?] and has your country ever witnessed a President or a PM getting gaoled?

    Show me a nation that has a flawless judiciary. You might also know this:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salim_Joubran

    My post has nothing in disagreement regarding the the lot of Palestinian youth incarcerated in Israeli prisons - a condition I deplore - but from that to concluding a fatally compromised judiciary, one which apparently, failed to punish a top politician is transparently and wilfully mendacious.

    Hi again Sam

    It was a pleasure to see Olmert will be going to jail. A rare event outside of coup governments jailing or killing their predecessors as an insurance policy. Insofar as comparisons respecting ‘democracy’ and the ‘rule of law’ in relation to impunity, it recalls Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzalez indicted by a Texas grand jury for racketeering and outcome where Cheney didn’t even bother to send a lawyer (he apparently only needed make a phone call, at most) to get the indictment thrown out… it was dismissed with a warning from the judge to the prosecutor to “never” pursue the case again. By comparison, Israeli justice looks pretty good just now with Olmert reporting to Israel’s penal system for incarceration. Even if he gets the ‘country club’ detention, it still says something.

    On account of Bibi & company’s behaviors, people from the outside tend to forget Israelis are not entirely made up of dyed in the wool criminals and it’s always been a habit of people in the west to throw stones from their glass houses. Would I like to see certain Israeli figures jailed for crimes against the Palestinians? Sure. Will that happen? It doesn’t seem likely, but it seem just as unlikely we will see the likes of Bush and Blair jailed for crimes against the Iraqis resulting in perhaps as many as a million collateral deaths. Democracy is a beast in its own right where too often it is sociopaths are those most motivated to rise & rule. And when they do, whether Bibi outsourcing his assassinations of Iranians nuclear scientists to MeK via blackmail, or Obama meeting with John Brennan on “Kill List Tuesdays” when deciding who will live or die in a regime of extrajudicial assassinations, it a hard fact one is no superior to the other in relation to the rule of law.

    Then, we can look at the institution of law by comparison. In the USA SCOTUS Chief Justice John Roberts appoints judges to the extra-constitutional FISA court and no one utters a word about it, not so much as any pointed criticism from any fellow SC justice, nothing from the bar association head, no senator, NOT ONE SINGLE person of significance in the machine stands up and says one word. It can’t hurt to mention here Chief Justice Roberts is only once removed from Dick Cheney, Robert’s champion for his nomination and confirmation to the United States Supreme Court had been Cheney’s Vice Presidential legal counsel Shannen Coffin (a close personal friend of Roberts.)

    In Israel, on the other hand, rather than a totally co-opted (corrupted) Supreme Court, you have a court that is undermined and often ignored by corrupt politicians (and in some cases my recollection is, by the military.) Here is a fair essay on the matter.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/tel-aviv-government-refuses-to-implement-israeli-supreme-court-ruling/20153

    The sharp prejudice we see in the comments is hardly fair to Israel by comparison to say, Britain or the USA. All are corrupt. All struggle with similar democratic issues. If the shrill left in the USA can be safely ignored (those few sane persons surviving on the right may as well have drowned for all the opportunity they have to be heard), in Israel those sane voices are simply not reported on outside of Israel. In the meanwhile, you’re engaging people here at Unz with little more than anti-Semitic reptilian reflex with semi-rational voice over, little different to our politicians. Hardly balanced or fair but then life has never been balanced or fair… here is a tongue-in-check example:

    “Both the elves and the reindeer made another accusation against Claus: that he discriminated in favour of children from rich families, who invariably got better and more expensive gifts than those of poor families, no matter how good or bad they’d been” (credit to ‘Bill the Butcher’)

    My point is, in matters of impunity, we’re all more or less equal. Olmert goes to jail, that’s a positive, but Bibi ignores and undermines the Israeli Supreme Court. In the USA? No one goes to jail and the Supreme Court appears to be in the pocket of the criminal regime with upholding the ‘national security’ and ‘state secrets’ doctrines which determine the most egregious crimes will never be heard before a competent jurisdiction and no one challenges the criminally complicit chief justice who appoint judges to a patently unconstitutional FISA institution. On top of that, I doubt democracy can be salvaged in a scenario where the populaces are becoming so radicalized, demagogues bring the greatest appeal to those who’ve yet to disengage (tune out) on the right or in the alternative, on the left are so self deceived they hold up a 70 years old murderer of entire nations as a logical choice for a first female president (following on the extrajudicial assassinations of a ‘Black’ or ‘nobel drone’ president who has always been more culturally White than Black.)

    I would offer the following quote to describe western culture generally, most of the authors at Unz and almost the entire body of commenters here at Phil’s blog..

    “Their judgment was based more upon blind wishing than upon any sound pre-vision; for it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use sovereign reason to thrust aside what they do not fancy” -Thucydides

    …aside from those Christian supremacist and other knee-jerk anti-Semites who’re actually somewhat a step lower than the use of sovereign reason in their self-deceit:

    “You can’t convince a chimpanzee to give you a banana with the promise it will get 20 more bananas in chimpanzee heaven. It won’t do it. But humans will” -Yuval Noah Harari

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hey Ron,
    As always a pleasure.

    I say this for the benefit of many on this board, [and not a drop of useless flattery intended for him], but the reason I find Ron's writings useful [and often humourous to boot] is that he approaches most topics with considerable knowledge, self-reflection and balance.

    Its remarkable [as I came back to this board during these holidays] that so few, appear to modify or change their minds ever! Even when faced with logic, numbers or evidence.

  47. @Rurik

    the manufacture of your brand.
     
    I suppose whatever that would be could be glimmered from the entirety of my posts here at the Unz. ~ Universal self-determination, wherever possible. Uniform justice and respect for human rights even including the rights of non-humans. - (I consider it appalling the way animals are treated as if they're objects)

    A respect for the planet and all things with a iron imperative not to fuck it all up too much for those who will come after. That kind of thing. I guess you could call that 'my brand'.

    In the meantime the premise of my comment was rather straightforward. In the case of Olmert, justice was delivered in spadefuls.
     
    I haven't followed the case that closely, so if you say he was treated as he should have been, that's good enough for me.

    Nor, btw have I spotted you deploring the condition of justice in the said nations. Odd that.]
     
    this is a common complaint, that too many people are too critical of Israel when others in the region are also guilty of human rights abuses. But what one must understand is that it wasn't the West that imposed Islam on the Middle East, it was the West that imposed Israel on the Middle East, but it was done so because the intention was that Israel was to be a "shining light unto the nations". A beacon of tolerance and Godliness and kindness and sort of like that Utopia you talk about. The Christian world was outraged at the cruelty of the Holocaust, and felt sympathy for the Jews of the Bible who were driven out by the Romans. So they put on blinders to the injustice done to the Palestinians and allowed the Jewish state, with the caveat that the Pals were to be treated with decency and have their own lands and state as well. But that's not how the Jews are acting, are they? They trying to steal all the land and they treat the Palestinians horribly, so much so that it tweaks the very same sensibilities of the Christian West that were so horrified by the Holocaust. The West wanted to do something to make amends for the Holocaust, not create another one. So that is one of the reasons Israeli behavior is rightfully condemned. Also because the things they do, like "Cast Lead" and drop white phosphorous and shoot children for sport, and harvest organs from murdered teenagers and tolerate white slavery in the brothels and blow up little boys playing on the beach. I don't see even the most repressive or reactionary Muslim governments in the Middle East doing things like that. Also it's the sickening hypocrisy of Jews as they're relentless in their finger pointing at the white Christian world for human rights abuses both real and imagined. We're all supposed to genuflect as Bibi insinuates we're all Nazis and we're all guilty, while he has his boot on the necks of Palestinian women and children even as he lectures us all. It's quite beyond the pale, this blindingly uber-obnoxious hypocrisy and arrogance or, what is it they call it.. chutzpa?

    yet it is incumbent on those who wish not be gaoled, to not throw stones; on the other hand, if getting incarcerated is the goal, [a time-honoured political gesture], then stone-throwing is a rather efficient means to that end!
     
    Your own word damn you Sam. Since every single person on the planet who isn't under the thrall of that delusional sickness ZioNazism feels nothing but pity for the simple if futile acts of defiance by that indomitable human sprit that stands proudly resisting the eternal fiends of tyranny and oppression. From Gandhi to those men during the Hungarian resistance to the man standing in front of the Chinese tank. They are the ones humanity honors and looks up to. The Rachel Corries of the world, NOT the IDF bulldozer driver, (or his apologists).
    For a smart guy, you have a lot to learn about human nature Sam.

    whatever that would be could be glimmered from the entirety of my posts here at the Unz. ~ Universal self-determination, wherever possible. Uniform justice and respect for human rights even including the rights of non-humans. – (I consider it appalling the way animals are treated as if they’re objects)

    So be it, and therefore you might consider delivering the arrows of that “Universal” wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?

    ….A beacon of tolerance and Godliness and kindness and sort of like that Utopia

    But…but I thought you White Christian Supremacists considered the Jewish G’d to be an entirely vengeful chappie. [I am not very religious, and think that the idea of a kind God has little or nothing to distinguish itself from the basic human quality of empathy - brushing aside altogether the inconvenient contradictory qualities]

    The Christian world was outraged at the cruelty of the Holocaust

    But, but….but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn. So everything you say after that, as it depends on the Holocaust is basically disingenuous.

    drop white phosphorous and shoot children for sport, and harvest organs from murdered teenagers and tolerate white slavery in the brothels and blow up little boys playing on the beach

    Use of white phosphorous was utterly reprehensible and illegal in urban/civilian areas. On an entirely separate matter, Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to “protect” these arsenals.

    Also it’s the sickening hypocrisy of Jews as they’re relentless in their finger pointing at the white Christian world for human rights abuses both real and imagined. We’re all supposed to genuflect as Bibi insinuates we’re all Nazis

    Is it true? Can you point me in the direction where a Jew or Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren’t you Rurik the invincible? Are you a Nazi? Again from recollection you and S2C seemed to have been happily engaged in a danse de joie singing praises to the NSDAP.

    It’s quite beyond the pale, this blindingly uber-obnoxious hypocrisy and arrogance or, what is it they call it.. chutzpa?

    Is it called “self projection” perhaps?

    Your own word damn you Sam. Since every single person on the planet who isn’t under the thrall of that delusional sickness ZioNazism feels nothing but pity for the simple if futile acts of defiance by that indomitable human sprit that stands proudly resisting the eternal fiends of tyranny and oppression. From Gandhi to those men during the Hungarian resistance to the man standing in front of the Chinese tank. They are the ones humanity honors and looks up to. The Rachel Corries of the world, NOT the IDF bulldozer driver, (or his apologists).

    This is where hyperbole get the better of an otherwise reasonable argument. That the IDF is engaged in some form of repression is incontrovertible. Equating it to the systematic, brutal Nazi regime’s methods does not a reasonable argument make. Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don’t we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?

    I support a 1SS, in which Pals and Jews have equal rights under the law. I do not support affirmative action beyond a reasonable initial compensation, to a large swathe of the Pal population. For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea. Unfortunately I don’t think you have any idea what the leadership of the Pals, or the Pals themselves are up to. I see some faint sounds of promise….however we shall see.

    “The indomitable human spirit” ….lofty sentiment, but its untrue.

    For a smart guy, you have a lot to learn about human nature Sam

    I have a great deal to learn about many things. I have been wrong about some aspects of the deep state. Understanding human nature? Not so much.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    you might consider delivering the arrows of that “Universal” wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?
     
    when my government sends them billions of dollars each year and weapons to slaughter their oppressed citizens with, then perhaps I will

    you White Christian Supremacists
     
    you're out of your mind Sam if you're trying to call me such things. Nowhere have I expressed even a hint of such sympathies. Hardly. But then you're not beyond the occasional smear now are you? ; )

    considered the Jewish G’d to be an entirely vengeful chappie.
     
    yes, but that is in the literal sense, and we enlightened Westerners were optimistically hoping the Jews had evolved beyond the stone age tribalism of the religions of the past. Perhaps we were just projecting.

    But, but….but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn.
     
    No Sam, what I said is that if every person who has some doubt about some detail of the Holocaust is going to be smeared and excoriated dishonestly as a quote "Holocaust Denier", as if they said the whole thing was a fraud- then all people of good will who didn't think it was right to force fealty to any dogma should all demand that they call us all Holocaust Deniers, that's what I said. Because I think putting 87 year old ladies in prison for having a doubt about the official version of the Holocaust is an abomination to reason. Perhaps soon they'll say that anyone who has any doubts about the official version of 911 is a '911 denier' and subject to arrest and imprisonment, and if so, well then I hope you'll count me among them. Even tho it's obvious that the Holocaust happened and that 911 happened, because they don't want any questions raised, they think they can cow us all with these ridiculous smears, and intimidate us all into silence. But that has never been my nature ; )

    Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to “protect” these arsenals.
     
    ahh. I see. I get it now. ; )

    Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren’t you Rurik
     
    not exclusively mind you, but anyone with even one brain cell clinking in their skulls knows of the Jewish crys of 'eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years'!, and we all watched the endless Hollywood movies impugning all white people for slavery and how Washington and all the other dead white men were all evil, and other such rot. And you're right, being Rurik, it riles my blood to see all the sniveling. It's revolting.

    Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don’t we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?
     
    How about we take account of our own souls?

    For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea.
     
    you sound like Bibi; the prerequisite for any peace talks require the Pals to forsake their rights to return or any viable state, blah, blah , blah...

    Understanding human nature? Not so much.
     
    we're all learning that
  48. @Ronald Thomas West
    Hi again Sam

    It was a pleasure to see Olmert will be going to jail. A rare event outside of coup governments jailing or killing their predecessors as an insurance policy. Insofar as comparisons respecting 'democracy' and the 'rule of law' in relation to impunity, it recalls Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzalez indicted by a Texas grand jury for racketeering and outcome where Cheney didn't even bother to send a lawyer (he apparently only needed make a phone call, at most) to get the indictment thrown out... it was dismissed with a warning from the judge to the prosecutor to "never" pursue the case again. By comparison, Israeli justice looks pretty good just now with Olmert reporting to Israel's penal system for incarceration. Even if he gets the 'country club' detention, it still says something.

    On account of Bibi & company's behaviors, people from the outside tend to forget Israelis are not entirely made up of dyed in the wool criminals and it's always been a habit of people in the west to throw stones from their glass houses. Would I like to see certain Israeli figures jailed for crimes against the Palestinians? Sure. Will that happen? It doesn't seem likely, but it seem just as unlikely we will see the likes of Bush and Blair jailed for crimes against the Iraqis resulting in perhaps as many as a million collateral deaths. Democracy is a beast in its own right where too often it is sociopaths are those most motivated to rise & rule. And when they do, whether Bibi outsourcing his assassinations of Iranians nuclear scientists to MeK via blackmail, or Obama meeting with John Brennan on "Kill List Tuesdays" when deciding who will live or die in a regime of extrajudicial assassinations, it a hard fact one is no superior to the other in relation to the rule of law.

    Then, we can look at the institution of law by comparison. In the USA SCOTUS Chief Justice John Roberts appoints judges to the extra-constitutional FISA court and no one utters a word about it, not so much as any pointed criticism from any fellow SC justice, nothing from the bar association head, no senator, NOT ONE SINGLE person of significance in the machine stands up and says one word. It can't hurt to mention here Chief Justice Roberts is only once removed from Dick Cheney, Robert's champion for his nomination and confirmation to the United States Supreme Court had been Cheney's Vice Presidential legal counsel Shannen Coffin (a close personal friend of Roberts.)

    In Israel, on the other hand, rather than a totally co-opted (corrupted) Supreme Court, you have a court that is undermined and often ignored by corrupt politicians (and in some cases my recollection is, by the military.) Here is a fair essay on the matter.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/tel-aviv-government-refuses-to-implement-israeli-supreme-court-ruling/20153

    The sharp prejudice we see in the comments is hardly fair to Israel by comparison to say, Britain or the USA. All are corrupt. All struggle with similar democratic issues. If the shrill left in the USA can be safely ignored (those few sane persons surviving on the right may as well have drowned for all the opportunity they have to be heard), in Israel those sane voices are simply not reported on outside of Israel. In the meanwhile, you're engaging people here at Unz with little more than anti-Semitic reptilian reflex with semi-rational voice over, little different to our politicians. Hardly balanced or fair but then life has never been balanced or fair... here is a tongue-in-check example:

    "Both the elves and the reindeer made another accusation against Claus: that he discriminated in favour of children from rich families, who invariably got better and more expensive gifts than those of poor families, no matter how good or bad they’d been" (credit to 'Bill the Butcher')

    My point is, in matters of impunity, we're all more or less equal. Olmert goes to jail, that's a positive, but Bibi ignores and undermines the Israeli Supreme Court. In the USA? No one goes to jail and the Supreme Court appears to be in the pocket of the criminal regime with upholding the 'national security' and 'state secrets' doctrines which determine the most egregious crimes will never be heard before a competent jurisdiction and no one challenges the criminally complicit chief justice who appoint judges to a patently unconstitutional FISA institution. On top of that, I doubt democracy can be salvaged in a scenario where the populaces are becoming so radicalized, demagogues bring the greatest appeal to those who've yet to disengage (tune out) on the right or in the alternative, on the left are so self deceived they hold up a 70 years old murderer of entire nations as a logical choice for a first female president (following on the extrajudicial assassinations of a 'Black' or 'nobel drone' president who has always been more culturally White than Black.)

    I would offer the following quote to describe western culture generally, most of the authors at Unz and almost the entire body of commenters here at Phil's blog..

    “Their judgment was based more upon blind wishing than upon any sound pre-vision; for it is a habit of mankind to entrust to careless hope what they long for, and to use sovereign reason to thrust aside what they do not fancy” -Thucydides

    ...aside from those Christian supremacist and other knee-jerk anti-Semites who're actually somewhat a step lower than the use of sovereign reason in their self-deceit:

    “You can’t convince a chimpanzee to give you a banana with the promise it will get 20 more bananas in chimpanzee heaven. It won’t do it. But humans will” -Yuval Noah Harari

    Hey Ron,
    As always a pleasure.

    I say this for the benefit of many on this board, [and not a drop of useless flattery intended for him], but the reason I find Ron’s writings useful [and often humourous to boot] is that he approaches most topics with considerable knowledge, self-reflection and balance.

    Its remarkable [as I came back to this board during these holidays] that so few, appear to modify or change their minds ever! Even when faced with logic, numbers or evidence.

    Read More
  49. Well hello Ronald,

    The sharp prejudice we see in the comments is hardly fair to Israel by comparison to say, Britain or the USA.

    Welly well. So the genocidal temperament of the Zionists are no different than the average American or Brit- who also have to suffer under the treacheries of Zionists and their stooges and apologists. If you’re an American, perhaps one who would like to see Dick Cheney at the Hague or on the scaffold, you’re just as guilty as Dick Cheney because he and the rest of the neocon, Zionist war criminals have coopted your government. Never mind that Dick Cheney must certainly be one of the most hated men in the West, and Bibi seems to be loved like no other in Israel, to Ronny, there is moral equivalency between American who hate these wars and vote in every single case to stop them, but then always have them foisted upon us by Zionist traitors. ‘So what’ says Ronny, we’re just as guilty as if we’d had dropped the bombs or done the water boarding personally.

    I will admit that you’re right about the corruption of the West by the murderous, war criminal Zionists, but to blame that on the people of the west, who’re appalled by it all, is not just dishonest, but betrays a deeper psychological pathos, perhaps not unrelated to the Zionists themselves, who you are openly trying (pathetically) to defend with your duplicitous comparisons. There is no comparison between the way the Zionists treat the Palestinians and the way American or the Brits treat their minorities. If an American right winger was filmed on the top of a building with a sniper rifle shooting black children for fun, the outrage would be universal. The calls for such a person to be tried and executed would be universal. There wouldn’t be one single man or woman in the US or England that would even try in a million years to defend that kind of thing. No sane American anyways, but you sure would attempt to impugn these good people as being that murderous and full of hate, wouldn’t you Ron? What does that tell us?

    Again, it’s true our governments in the West are corrupted totally and absolutely by the agents of Zionism, but to blame that on the people of the West is wrong and dishonest and atrocious and contemptible in the extreme.

    And to imply that because the governments of the US and England are corrupt and murderous, (and they are) is to imply that the people of the US and England are just as murderous and corrupt, and just as genocidal and racist and callously indifferent to human life as the Israelis are towards Palestinians, is vile, twisted and wicked. Because the American people are not like that at all. Just take the case of Freddie Gray, who was an African American ne’er-do-well and drug dealer. And he was treated by the police much the way the IDF treats Palestinians, but rather than mock his cruel death, the officers responsible are being charged with murder, as they should be. And hopefully they’ll be made examples of. Now what are the chances a similar result would happed to an IDFer who caused the cruel death of a Palestinian? Eh Ronny?

    But you can go on making apologies for the way the Israelis treat the Palestinians by suggesting it’s just business as usual in the West Ron, if it consoles you. But as you do so, it also gives people a window into your own soul, and the terrifying demons that must surly haunt it.

    Read More
  50. @Sam Shama
    I am aware that your dearest wish is to inhabit in an Utopia of your own creation. I don't eagerly or patiently await the manufacture of your brand.

    In the meantime the premise of my comment was rather straightforward. In the case of Olmert, justice was delivered in spadefuls. That sort of thing tends not to happen in the ME, other than as the vengeful outcome of a military coup.

    [Also as far as I can recall, no POTUS or British PM has ever been incarcerated, do you? Nor could I search and find a Jewish or Christian judge of the Supreme Court in KSA, Iran, Turkey, Egypt or Pakistan. Nor, btw have I spotted you deploring the condition of justice in the said nations. Odd that.]

    Israeli law as it applies to Palestinian youth leaves much to be desired [ a separate matter altogether, and ought to be explored in the context of much of the history of Law actually], yet it is incumbent on those who wish not be gaoled, to not throw stones; on the other hand, if getting incarcerated is the goal, [a time-honoured political gesture], then stone-throwing is a rather efficient means to that end!

    Sam,

    Don’t know about you Jews being so smart. Our Clinton president and his lovely wife have amassed 150 million personally and another 150 in their family foundation (slush fund). (Bill raped many women to boot. (Hillary too)). They will never see jail. Now that’s a country!

    Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I have never claimed, nor believe that jews are smarter [its a very difficult trait to define] than any other community [just the basic facts - they are on the average better educated in the USA and Ashkenazis have a higher average IQ, with the right tail of the distribution being quite remarkable. However I certainly do not subscribe to IQ being a great determinant of success].

    I am afraid I don't follow what Clintons' amassing of wealth has to do with this. In general I would speculate that amassing wealth is perhaps only very weakly correlated with smarts.
    , @Carroll Price
    Art,
    You make a very valid comparison. How many know criminals within the US government have ever suffered so much as a weak indictment for their criminal conduct? To name only two, torturer enablers, Roberto Gonzales and John Yoo are still running around scot-free.
  51. @Sam Shama

    whatever that would be could be glimmered from the entirety of my posts here at the Unz. ~ Universal self-determination, wherever possible. Uniform justice and respect for human rights even including the rights of non-humans. – (I consider it appalling the way animals are treated as if they’re objects)
     
    So be it, and therefore you might consider delivering the arrows of that "Universal" wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?

    ....A beacon of tolerance and Godliness and kindness and sort of like that Utopia
     
    But...but I thought you White Christian Supremacists considered the Jewish G'd to be an entirely vengeful chappie. [I am not very religious, and think that the idea of a kind God has little or nothing to distinguish itself from the basic human quality of empathy - brushing aside altogether the inconvenient contradictory qualities]

    The Christian world was outraged at the cruelty of the Holocaust
     

    But, but....but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn. So everything you say after that, as it depends on the Holocaust is basically disingenuous.

    drop white phosphorous and shoot children for sport, and harvest organs from murdered teenagers and tolerate white slavery in the brothels and blow up little boys playing on the beach
     
    Use of white phosphorous was utterly reprehensible and illegal in urban/civilian areas. On an entirely separate matter, Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to "protect" these arsenals.

    Also it’s the sickening hypocrisy of Jews as they’re relentless in their finger pointing at the white Christian world for human rights abuses both real and imagined. We’re all supposed to genuflect as Bibi insinuates we’re all Nazis
     
    Is it true? Can you point me in the direction where a Jew or Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren't you Rurik the invincible? Are you a Nazi? Again from recollection you and S2C seemed to have been happily engaged in a danse de joie singing praises to the NSDAP.

    It’s quite beyond the pale, this blindingly uber-obnoxious hypocrisy and arrogance or, what is it they call it.. chutzpa?
     
    Is it called "self projection" perhaps?

    Your own word damn you Sam. Since every single person on the planet who isn’t under the thrall of that delusional sickness ZioNazism feels nothing but pity for the simple if futile acts of defiance by that indomitable human sprit that stands proudly resisting the eternal fiends of tyranny and oppression. From Gandhi to those men during the Hungarian resistance to the man standing in front of the Chinese tank. They are the ones humanity honors and looks up to. The Rachel Corries of the world, NOT the IDF bulldozer driver, (or his apologists).

     

    This is where hyperbole get the better of an otherwise reasonable argument. That the IDF is engaged in some form of repression is incontrovertible. Equating it to the systematic, brutal Nazi regime's methods does not a reasonable argument make. Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don't we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?

    I support a 1SS, in which Pals and Jews have equal rights under the law. I do not support affirmative action beyond a reasonable initial compensation, to a large swathe of the Pal population. For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea. Unfortunately I don't think you have any idea what the leadership of the Pals, or the Pals themselves are up to. I see some faint sounds of promise....however we shall see.

    "The indomitable human spirit" ....lofty sentiment, but its untrue.


    For a smart guy, you have a lot to learn about human nature Sam
     
    I have a great deal to learn about many things. I have been wrong about some aspects of the deep state. Understanding human nature? Not so much.

    you might consider delivering the arrows of that “Universal” wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?

    when my government sends them billions of dollars each year and weapons to slaughter their oppressed citizens with, then perhaps I will

    you White Christian Supremacists

    you’re out of your mind Sam if you’re trying to call me such things. Nowhere have I expressed even a hint of such sympathies. Hardly. But then you’re not beyond the occasional smear now are you? ; )

    considered the Jewish G’d to be an entirely vengeful chappie.

    yes, but that is in the literal sense, and we enlightened Westerners were optimistically hoping the Jews had evolved beyond the stone age tribalism of the religions of the past. Perhaps we were just projecting.

    But, but….but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn.

    No Sam, what I said is that if every person who has some doubt about some detail of the Holocaust is going to be smeared and excoriated dishonestly as a quote “Holocaust Denier”, as if they said the whole thing was a fraud- then all people of good will who didn’t think it was right to force fealty to any dogma should all demand that they call us all Holocaust Deniers, that’s what I said. Because I think putting 87 year old ladies in prison for having a doubt about the official version of the Holocaust is an abomination to reason. Perhaps soon they’ll say that anyone who has any doubts about the official version of 911 is a ’911 denier’ and subject to arrest and imprisonment, and if so, well then I hope you’ll count me among them. Even tho it’s obvious that the Holocaust happened and that 911 happened, because they don’t want any questions raised, they think they can cow us all with these ridiculous smears, and intimidate us all into silence. But that has never been my nature ; )

    Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to “protect” these arsenals.

    ahh. I see. I get it now. ; )

    Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren’t you Rurik

    not exclusively mind you, but anyone with even one brain cell clinking in their skulls knows of the Jewish crys of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!, and we all watched the endless Hollywood movies impugning all white people for slavery and how Washington and all the other dead white men were all evil, and other such rot. And you’re right, being Rurik, it riles my blood to see all the sniveling. It’s revolting.

    Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don’t we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?

    How about we take account of our own souls?

    For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea.

    you sound like Bibi; the prerequisite for any peace talks require the Pals to forsake their rights to return or any viable state, blah, blah , blah…

    Understanding human nature? Not so much.

    we’re all learning that

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Failed on each count; if you bothered to examine the internal inconsistencies of your approach.

    Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to respond to basic rants, unsupported by evidence ["Jewish crys [sic]of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!...." etc], or transparently dodging the requirement imposed by your self-admitted ownership of Universal morality and wisdom [" I will when my government sends......" the same government that is both the object of your disdain and the convenient cover for your dodges, as it suits]

    bye for now.

  52. @Rurik

    you might consider delivering the arrows of that “Universal” wisdom to KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., for universality demands it, does it not?
     
    when my government sends them billions of dollars each year and weapons to slaughter their oppressed citizens with, then perhaps I will

    you White Christian Supremacists
     
    you're out of your mind Sam if you're trying to call me such things. Nowhere have I expressed even a hint of such sympathies. Hardly. But then you're not beyond the occasional smear now are you? ; )

    considered the Jewish G’d to be an entirely vengeful chappie.
     
    yes, but that is in the literal sense, and we enlightened Westerners were optimistically hoping the Jews had evolved beyond the stone age tribalism of the religions of the past. Perhaps we were just projecting.

    But, but….but, I struggle. My recollection is that you considered the Holocaust to be a wholly false construct, to be denied at every turn.
     
    No Sam, what I said is that if every person who has some doubt about some detail of the Holocaust is going to be smeared and excoriated dishonestly as a quote "Holocaust Denier", as if they said the whole thing was a fraud- then all people of good will who didn't think it was right to force fealty to any dogma should all demand that they call us all Holocaust Deniers, that's what I said. Because I think putting 87 year old ladies in prison for having a doubt about the official version of the Holocaust is an abomination to reason. Perhaps soon they'll say that anyone who has any doubts about the official version of 911 is a '911 denier' and subject to arrest and imprisonment, and if so, well then I hope you'll count me among them. Even tho it's obvious that the Holocaust happened and that 911 happened, because they don't want any questions raised, they think they can cow us all with these ridiculous smears, and intimidate us all into silence. But that has never been my nature ; )

    Hamas was storing and launching rockets from schools and hospitals, and forcibly detaining civilians at these sites to “protect” these arsenals.
     
    ahh. I see. I get it now. ; )

    Jews were exclusively doing the finger pointing, if at all? And who may one ask, compels you to genuflect before Bibi? Aren’t you Rurik
     
    not exclusively mind you, but anyone with even one brain cell clinking in their skulls knows of the Jewish crys of 'eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years'!, and we all watched the endless Hollywood movies impugning all white people for slavery and how Washington and all the other dead white men were all evil, and other such rot. And you're right, being Rurik, it riles my blood to see all the sniveling. It's revolting.

    Killing each other is a part of the human DNA, and why don’t we start taking an account of which nation/peoples/religions have killed how many?
     
    How about we take account of our own souls?

    For that to happen, an essential condition is for all potential citizens to embrace the idea.
     
    you sound like Bibi; the prerequisite for any peace talks require the Pals to forsake their rights to return or any viable state, blah, blah , blah...

    Understanding human nature? Not so much.
     
    we're all learning that

    Failed on each count; if you bothered to examine the internal inconsistencies of your approach.

    Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to respond to basic rants, unsupported by evidence ["Jewish crys [sic]of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!….” etc], or transparently dodging the requirement imposed by your self-admitted ownership of Universal morality and wisdom [" I will when my government sends......" the same government that is both the object of your disdain and the convenient cover for your dodges, as it suits]

    bye for now.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    ; )

    I still hold out hope for you Sam

    and my words, all of them, I leave for the reader to judge
    , @Ronald Thomas West
    Getting criticized by Rurik and his ilk is like a badge of honor (I didn't read beyond his first lines.) Sort of like a certain cartoonist getting banned by Turkey's Erdogan... one could be truly proud of that. But then we knew cretins crawl out from under rocks, whether in low places or high office, actually that's normal. Maybe Rurik has a secret crush on Bibi and that clashes with denial in relation to his sexual identity .. making for an involuntary, angry anti-Semite ;0)
  53. @Sam Shama
    Failed on each count; if you bothered to examine the internal inconsistencies of your approach.

    Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to respond to basic rants, unsupported by evidence ["Jewish crys [sic]of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!...." etc], or transparently dodging the requirement imposed by your self-admitted ownership of Universal morality and wisdom [" I will when my government sends......" the same government that is both the object of your disdain and the convenient cover for your dodges, as it suits]

    bye for now.

    ; )

    I still hold out hope for you Sam

    and my words, all of them, I leave for the reader to judge

    Read More
  54. @Sam Shama
    Failed on each count; if you bothered to examine the internal inconsistencies of your approach.

    Since I have neither the time, nor the inclination to respond to basic rants, unsupported by evidence ["Jewish crys [sic]of ‘eternal persecution by the terrible Christians for two thousand years’!...." etc], or transparently dodging the requirement imposed by your self-admitted ownership of Universal morality and wisdom [" I will when my government sends......" the same government that is both the object of your disdain and the convenient cover for your dodges, as it suits]

    bye for now.

    Getting criticized by Rurik and his ilk is like a badge of honor (I didn’t read beyond his first lines.) Sort of like a certain cartoonist getting banned by Turkey’s Erdogan… one could be truly proud of that. But then we knew cretins crawl out from under rocks, whether in low places or high office, actually that’s normal. Maybe Rurik has a secret crush on Bibi and that clashes with denial in relation to his sexual identity .. making for an involuntary, angry anti-Semite ;0)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    I don't need to criticize you Ronald, your words do more damage to your character than I could or would want to contribute to.

    I just think it's a shame that such intelligent fellows as you and Sam are so myopically and terminally tribal. In Sam's case for his perceived tribe, and in your case, against Western (European/Christian/whatever) peoples. Yours is a kind of anti-tribal - tribalism. I'm reminded of those white orcs from those Tolkien movies who're smarter than the grunting dark orcs but still full of hate and bloodlust, if not more so - it's just much more focused.



    Anyways, it's always fun ; )

    now go ahead and call me a homosexual or some other thing like you always do : )
  55. @Ronald Thomas West
    Getting criticized by Rurik and his ilk is like a badge of honor (I didn't read beyond his first lines.) Sort of like a certain cartoonist getting banned by Turkey's Erdogan... one could be truly proud of that. But then we knew cretins crawl out from under rocks, whether in low places or high office, actually that's normal. Maybe Rurik has a secret crush on Bibi and that clashes with denial in relation to his sexual identity .. making for an involuntary, angry anti-Semite ;0)

    I don’t need to criticize you Ronald, your words do more damage to your character than I could or would want to contribute to.

    I just think it’s a shame that such intelligent fellows as you and Sam are so myopically and terminally tribal. In Sam’s case for his perceived tribe, and in your case, against Western (European/Christian/whatever) peoples. Yours is a kind of anti-tribal – tribalism. I’m reminded of those white orcs from those Tolkien movies who’re smarter than the grunting dark orcs but still full of hate and bloodlust, if not more so – it’s just much more focused.

    Anyways, it’s always fun ; )

    now go ahead and call me a homosexual or some other thing like you always do : )

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    If unquestioningly submitting to the notion that "the Jew is at the root of all ills", is the litmus test, then I am afraid I am tribal.
  56. @Art
    Sam,

    Don't know about you Jews being so smart. Our Clinton president and his lovely wife have amassed 150 million personally and another 150 in their family foundation (slush fund). (Bill raped many women to boot. (Hillary too)). They will never see jail. Now that's a country!

    Art

    I have never claimed, nor believe that jews are smarter [its a very difficult trait to define] than any other community [just the basic facts - they are on the average better educated in the USA and Ashkenazis have a higher average IQ, with the right tail of the distribution being quite remarkable. However I certainly do not subscribe to IQ being a great determinant of success].

    I am afraid I don’t follow what Clintons’ amassing of wealth has to do with this. In general I would speculate that amassing wealth is perhaps only very weakly correlated with smarts.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    Sam - I was more hoping to make funny then make a statement on intelligence. I failed - sad me! -- Art
  57. Sam, I hope you don’t mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice… and all that).

    If it’s true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I’d have to say that Rurik’s soul shines as bright as the north star.

    Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik’s ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik’s hands, as well… when he repeatedly called me a “goat” for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

    My 2 cents, Sam.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hi Geo,
    Don't mind at all. If you vouch for him I'll accept it. I can't claim any capacity to peer into the souls of people, but can perhaps conjure it. Soul-wise I think we are all on safe ground. Call me eccentric if you wish, I actually don't like many of my friends, but rather do enjoy jousting words with clever blokes[Rurik is one]. [in all seriousness, its worth reiterating my preference for RTW's nuanced approach in most matters; and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh? :-) ]
    , @RobinG
    SAM'S USE OF "CHOMSKY DEFLECTION"

    Hi Geo.
    The "Chomsky Deflection" is calling someone a hypocrite for singling out Israel. It's been publically debated and debunked. Now, I haven't read all Rurik said, he's too long-winded, and he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is 'the worst' or words to that effect. But his point is defensible.

    Americans have every right to single out Israel because, unlike every other man-made Hell-hole, Israel is openly and unapologetically supported by our government. This makes us (the ostensible government by the people) directly responsible, via military and financial aid, UN votes and vetoes, for all the crimes the Zionist state has committed and is committing. Some of us don't like it (or being scammed into wars for Israel's benefit, but that's a slightly different argument). In fact we are disgusted, ashamed, angry, etc., and we have a greater responsibility to address this.

    So, even though I have had disagreements with Rurik on other topics, I support his justification for targeting Israel. I hope Sam can understand that.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    I find myself having read some of Rurik's stuff appreciatively and have just replied to one of his posts so I struggle to remember why, early on, I had him on my short list of Commenters to Ignore. I suppose it was the intemperate language which had extended sometimes to casting doubt on his capacity for rational thought. You mention WTC 7 and it could well have been his furious passion on that subject and our naïve stupidity in not seeing it his way which was the big off-put. It is interesting how often intelligent people can let themselves down as persuaders because they become so sure about something on inadequate evidence and get frustrated and furious at their consequent inability to prove what they are so certain about. Of course that tendency is built in to a creature that ran Inquisitions and burned witches (just for two of a hundred examples) and no doubt is closely associated with the ability of teams and tribes to bond. I so dislike false certainties and bad arguments (including ones thought sufficient but just missing something) that I think I will do my poor best at the bonding business by the human equivalents of defleaing which for me includes being willing to play handicap matches with almost anyone at my tennis club. (Handicap? Yup. Court/Real/Royal tennis).
    , @Rurik
    I suspect geo that we are simply of a like mind in many respects. A shared esteem for the ancient virtues of veracity for instance. ~A love for the truth.~ But yet I'm none the less humbled (floored ; ) by your generous forbearance.

    I hope I can endeavor to aspire to a small shred of such an honor, coming as it is, from you.
  58. @Rurik
    I don't need to criticize you Ronald, your words do more damage to your character than I could or would want to contribute to.

    I just think it's a shame that such intelligent fellows as you and Sam are so myopically and terminally tribal. In Sam's case for his perceived tribe, and in your case, against Western (European/Christian/whatever) peoples. Yours is a kind of anti-tribal - tribalism. I'm reminded of those white orcs from those Tolkien movies who're smarter than the grunting dark orcs but still full of hate and bloodlust, if not more so - it's just much more focused.



    Anyways, it's always fun ; )

    now go ahead and call me a homosexual or some other thing like you always do : )

    If unquestioningly submitting to the notion that “the Jew is at the root of all ills”, is the litmus test, then I am afraid I am tribal.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hi Sam,

    “the Jew is at the root of all ills”
     
    hmm, that little ditty is in quotes. Almost like you're quoting me. But you would never do that now would you Sam, put nasty words in my mouth and imply I said something really dumb and objectionable, would you?

    And for the record, 'the Jew" is not at the root of all ills. Sometimes I think there's some of them that'd like to think so. As if they were a Dr. Evil of sorts with megalomaniacal fantasies of controlling the world. But it's not so. They just wield unfair and often negative influence over a lot of the West today, especially when it comes to Israel or wars or wars for Israel, and for that, I do not give them a pass. But then again, neither do a lot of Jews, who also happen to be some of the best voices against the madness and evil of these wars.
  59. @Sam Shama
    I have never claimed, nor believe that jews are smarter [its a very difficult trait to define] than any other community [just the basic facts - they are on the average better educated in the USA and Ashkenazis have a higher average IQ, with the right tail of the distribution being quite remarkable. However I certainly do not subscribe to IQ being a great determinant of success].

    I am afraid I don't follow what Clintons' amassing of wealth has to do with this. In general I would speculate that amassing wealth is perhaps only very weakly correlated with smarts.

    Sam – I was more hoping to make funny then make a statement on intelligence. I failed – sad me! — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Ah got it! I did suspect that you were needling us for allowing the Clintons' to amass wealth which would have better served remaining in the pockets of us sheenies. :-)
  60. @geokat62
    Sam, I hope you don't mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice... and all that).

    If it's true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I'd have to say that Rurik's soul shines as bright as the north star.

    Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik's ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik's hands, as well... when he repeatedly called me a "goat" for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

    My 2 cents, Sam.

    Hi Geo,
    Don’t mind at all. If you vouch for him I’ll accept it. I can’t claim any capacity to peer into the souls of people, but can perhaps conjure it. Soul-wise I think we are all on safe ground. Call me eccentric if you wish, I actually don’t like many of my friends, but rather do enjoy jousting words with clever blokes[Rurik is one]. [in all seriousness, its worth reiterating my preference for RTW's nuanced approach in most matters; and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh? :-) ]

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    ...and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh?
     
    Sam, if I wanted to see the exchange of crude punches, I'd tune into the UFC. What I enjoy most about coming here at Unz, is the exchange of ideas and arguments in a forceful, yet respectful, manner. These are the qualities I look for most in the person with home I'm debating. You definitely possess them... can't say the same for your friend.
  61. @Art
    Sam - I was more hoping to make funny then make a statement on intelligence. I failed - sad me! -- Art

    Ah got it! I did suspect that you were needling us for allowing the Clintons’ to amass wealth which would have better served remaining in the pockets of us sheenies. :-)

    Read More
  62. @geokat62
    Sam, I hope you don't mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice... and all that).

    If it's true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I'd have to say that Rurik's soul shines as bright as the north star.

    Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik's ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik's hands, as well... when he repeatedly called me a "goat" for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

    My 2 cents, Sam.

    SAM’S USE OF “CHOMSKY DEFLECTION”

    Hi Geo.
    The “Chomsky Deflection” is calling someone a hypocrite for singling out Israel. It’s been publically debated and debunked. Now, I haven’t read all Rurik said, he’s too long-winded, and he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect. But his point is defensible.

    Americans have every right to single out Israel because, unlike every other man-made Hell-hole, Israel is openly and unapologetically supported by our government. This makes us (the ostensible government by the people) directly responsible, via military and financial aid, UN votes and vetoes, for all the crimes the Zionist state has committed and is committing. Some of us don’t like it (or being scammed into wars for Israel’s benefit, but that’s a slightly different argument). In fact we are disgusted, ashamed, angry, etc., and we have a greater responsibility to address this.

    So, even though I have had disagreements with Rurik on other topics, I support his justification for targeting Israel. I hope Sam can understand that.

    Read More
    • Agree: geokat62
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    "The Chomsky Deflection" - sounds like a chess strategy Robin, one whose existence and efficacy I was unaware of ; until now, that is. The criticism should be self-evident. Nevertheless, after having just verified Chomsky's arguments, I discovered that Rurik's reply was the precise version drawn from the stock in trade handbook of SJW brigades.

    I don't mind at all that you support his position [why should I?], however, if you follow my argument carefully, you will notice that I was simply insisting that he practice and accordingly diversify his self-proclaimed universality of choice, morality etc. occasionally away from his exclusive target. I hope you see that. It isn't at all that Israel should be shielded from criticism, but if one preaches the universality of lofty principles, they ought be invariant under all schemes, in other words, universal. Chomsky's was not a response to universality and therefore subject to your criticism.

    (Furthermore, ever make an accounting of why America gives so much money to so many foreign nations [Israel being the largest]? And why did all the great colonial powers do the very same? I am sure you have an answer in mind, but I suspect it is simpler than the reality.)
    , @Rurik
    Hi Robin,

    I'll try not to be too long-winded. I know I'm often guilty of that ; )

    he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect.
     
    for the record, Israel is "the worst" offender of the use of American foreign aid by using it to oppress and torment and murder innocent people whose only 'crime' is that they exist on their own land. Just so we're straight on that ; )

    his justification for targeting Israel.
     
    but I wince at that characterization of "targeting" anyone. I'm not targeting them, I'm criticizing them. I want them to stop murdering and humiliating people. I want them to stop targeting children in the crosshairs of their sniper rifles and shooting them with ammunition I'm forced to help pay for. - And then claim I'm morally complicit in the crime. That I and all other Americans are just as bad as they are. No, we're not!
  63. @Sam Shama
    Hi Geo,
    Don't mind at all. If you vouch for him I'll accept it. I can't claim any capacity to peer into the souls of people, but can perhaps conjure it. Soul-wise I think we are all on safe ground. Call me eccentric if you wish, I actually don't like many of my friends, but rather do enjoy jousting words with clever blokes[Rurik is one]. [in all seriousness, its worth reiterating my preference for RTW's nuanced approach in most matters; and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh? :-) ]

    …and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh?

    Sam, if I wanted to see the exchange of crude punches, I’d tune into the UFC. What I enjoy most about coming here at Unz, is the exchange of ideas and arguments in a forceful, yet respectful, manner. These are the qualities I look for most in the person with home I’m debating. You definitely possess them… can’t say the same for your friend.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Point taken, but I don't think RTW is ever crude. Biting humour? Yes.

    Also haven't you noticed, that here at the UR, politeness is a tradition observed more in its breach than in its observance?
  64. @Wizard of Oz
    Your reply reminds me of the splendid bit of Irishry:

    A. "Can you please tell me the way from here to Dublin"
    B. "Well I wouldn't be starting from here".

    In your case I had better not ask you to say what is needed for good government.

    Several years ago I was driving in (I think it was Brazil) and asked a local for directions.
    What was given included “turn right at the tree where the policeman was killed”.

    Read More
  65. @Rurik

    God has mysterious ways to punish criminals ……
     
    I agree Rehmat

    even more mysterious is people's eternal fealty to the existence of their Gods in the face of all evidence to the contrary

    But then, how much of religion is based on eternal and spiritual truths vs. how much is raw tribalism?

    How much of the hostility between Sunnis and Shiites is a consequence of the fact that most Sunnis are ethically Arabs and most Shiites are ethically Persians or Alawites or others?

    Did the animals who tortured Gadhafi to death do so because he was an apostate to Islam, or because of ancient and intractable tribal hostilities?

    You seem like the perfect person to make these queries to, if you don't mine my asking..

    Interesting question about assessing whether religion or ethnicity is the bigger dividing criterion BUT… I think your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs I believe. But, more to the point is the fact that Pakistan is overwhelmingly Sunni and has a bigger population than the Arab countries. Also Turkey is predominantly Sunni and, maybe, though I am not sure, Indonesia which has the biggest Muslim population of any single country I believe. Bangladesh?? Not Shia anyway. The Kurds are more Kurd than Sunni I guess and Hamas is probably Sunni but supported by Iran. I forgot Egypt which I suppose is mostly Sunni and Arab but no bigger than Turkey so my question re premise remains.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hello Wizard,

    your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs
     
    yes, you're right, the Alawites are Arabs, but yet they seem a bit removed somehow from the Arabs farther to the east, it seems to me. And just as the indigenous citizens of Europe are all European, yet there are distinct and often hostile sub-groups among them. Sort of the same way the Irish and English have seemed to use religion (Catholic vs. Protestant) to exacerbate what might otherwise simply be a tribal conflict between the tribes of England and the tribes of Ireland.

    So if you forget for the moment all the other Sunni Muslims in Pakistan or Indonesia, and concentrate for the purposes of the query on the greater Levant, is it possible that the divide between Sunni and Shiite has tribal motivations?

    Or, on a related note, is it possible that the hostilities between Pakistan and India are not wholly due to religion, but also include tribal realities?
  66. @RobinG
    SAM'S USE OF "CHOMSKY DEFLECTION"

    Hi Geo.
    The "Chomsky Deflection" is calling someone a hypocrite for singling out Israel. It's been publically debated and debunked. Now, I haven't read all Rurik said, he's too long-winded, and he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is 'the worst' or words to that effect. But his point is defensible.

    Americans have every right to single out Israel because, unlike every other man-made Hell-hole, Israel is openly and unapologetically supported by our government. This makes us (the ostensible government by the people) directly responsible, via military and financial aid, UN votes and vetoes, for all the crimes the Zionist state has committed and is committing. Some of us don't like it (or being scammed into wars for Israel's benefit, but that's a slightly different argument). In fact we are disgusted, ashamed, angry, etc., and we have a greater responsibility to address this.

    So, even though I have had disagreements with Rurik on other topics, I support his justification for targeting Israel. I hope Sam can understand that.

    “The Chomsky Deflection” – sounds like a chess strategy Robin, one whose existence and efficacy I was unaware of ; until now, that is. The criticism should be self-evident. Nevertheless, after having just verified Chomsky’s arguments, I discovered that Rurik’s reply was the precise version drawn from the stock in trade handbook of SJW brigades.

    I don’t mind at all that you support his position [why should I?], however, if you follow my argument carefully, you will notice that I was simply insisting that he practice and accordingly diversify his self-proclaimed universality of choice, morality etc. occasionally away from his exclusive target. I hope you see that. It isn’t at all that Israel should be shielded from criticism, but if one preaches the universality of lofty principles, they ought be invariant under all schemes, in other words, universal. Chomsky’s was not a response to universality and therefore subject to your criticism.

    (Furthermore, ever make an accounting of why America gives so much money to so many foreign nations [Israel being the largest]? And why did all the great colonial powers do the very same? I am sure you have an answer in mind, but I suspect it is simpler than the reality.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I don't want to let down the reputation of the empire on which the sun never set Sam but your closing parenthetical par. surprised me. Actually on two grounds but take the idea of the great colonial powers giving much money to foreign nations as the first surprise in itself.

    Britain subsidised many foreign nations in its 18th and 19th century wars but that doesn't seem to be what you had in mind. Nor should the European colonial powers be given credit for the missionary activity which actually helped their subjects. Spain in particular, was almost wholly extractive apart from its conferring the gift of the Catholic faith on the heathen. France probably did more through government to educate its colonial subjects than Britain although clearly Indians got huge and valuable doses of western education once the Brits ruled India.

    Maybe the word "gives" should be the starting point because it suggests no quid pro quo, or even an expectation of one. So what do the "givers" demand in return, what do they expect, how much institutional inertia is built in to the system including employment of jobsworths in NGOs, departments of state and at or under the UN?

    Apart from making politicians and many voters feel good when giving (other people's) money to save starving Ethiopian children I suppose the logic of the welfare state flows over to world citizenship especially for those of Christian background (and possibly Muslim if their countries were richer: as the Saudi financed madrassas suggests). Ancient Judaism didn't show strong feelings for non Jews but modern Jewry has presumably internalised Enlightenment values and certainly seen how the big man business applies everywhere, not just amongst medieval aristocrats and pig owning Papuan chiefs but self-made businessmen too so Jews now famously reach out with charitable giving to all the people of the countries they live in. (Yes, "famously" perhaps does imply "not anonymously" but there is a very good argument that humble anonymous giving is not necessarily the best in effect because it doesn't inspire others to give),
  67. @geokat62

    ...and he has been known not to hold back punches on occasion, eh?
     
    Sam, if I wanted to see the exchange of crude punches, I'd tune into the UFC. What I enjoy most about coming here at Unz, is the exchange of ideas and arguments in a forceful, yet respectful, manner. These are the qualities I look for most in the person with home I'm debating. You definitely possess them... can't say the same for your friend.

    Point taken, but I don’t think RTW is ever crude. Biting humour? Yes.

    Also haven’t you noticed, that here at the UR, politeness is a tradition observed more in its breach than in its observance?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    Hello Sam

    I notice the party most vocal about ‘gentlemanly behaviors’ continues with a desultory fire from beyond the truce line. If indeed I have on occasion or two been guilty of being ‘crude’ it shouldn’t require rocket science to understand why. How is it, do you suppose, we can have an agreement suggested by the one party, accepted by the 2nd party (meself) and said 1st party cannot sit still and observe the agreement? It’s like so many of the neo-Platonic pansies who, when setting up a debate with rules made to suit themselves, endlessly object to any point that does not suit their fancy, even to the death of the matter under discussion, and that’s the rule they embrace; no matter they took a hit, like the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail, denial is paramount, for instance in a case where a truce is repeatedly violated by the one party claiming the high ground of 'gentlemanly' behaviors .. but isn’t keeping to one’s word the very pinnacle of the ‘gentlemanly’ concept? (rhetorical question.)

    One would think that, because of my indigenous philosophical background, a Mormon, taking offense at the consequent necessary, culturally integrated humor in debate required of myself to be true to my origins, has labelled this errant soul a ‘new world’ meshumad ;o)

    On related topic, due to certainty my recent (you found to be "balanced") more lengthy than typical comment would draw sufficient disapprobation, I've blogged it at my page with some amendments and a swipe at Plato in new conclusion :D

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2015/12/30/throwing-stones-from-glass-houses/

    Cheers!

  68. gaza exceeds all crimes imputed to the nazis. not the actual nazis but the much worse fictional nazis created in the fevered brains of jews.

    nazis had hospitals for its work camps inmates. jews bomb hospitals, ambulances, doctors, patients. of course some patients are created to be organ donors. lots of bad organs the jews have.

    in the judaized/zionized west, the jew is behind the curtain and controlling, influencing, creating – wars, corrupt politicians, corrupt judiciary, corrupt banks, corrupt govt agencies, corrupt media, corrupt academia.

    then there is degraded art and literature and cinema and tv and radio. all reduced to trash which is the level of jew art. art brought down to the level of the jew and proclaimed “art”.

    then we have that monstrous wall snaking throughout the west bank. created by snakes to steal land, water, destroy communities, families.

    so much of this done by a collective whose god is themselves. they are the higher authority. a few believe in a god outside the collective – a small, incomplete g-d. this g-d would be the devil.

    then there is a separate class for the murderers of olive trees. these insane thugs do know that olive trees have a long history, a long, truthful memory.

    this memory has to be destroyed by the fakes, frauds, aliens. the people whose entire history is a fiction.

    all funded by u.s. taxpayers dollars.

    Read More
  69. @geokat62
    Sam, I hope you don't mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice... and all that).

    If it's true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I'd have to say that Rurik's soul shines as bright as the north star.

    Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik's ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik's hands, as well... when he repeatedly called me a "goat" for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

    My 2 cents, Sam.

    I find myself having read some of Rurik’s stuff appreciatively and have just replied to one of his posts so I struggle to remember why, early on, I had him on my short list of Commenters to Ignore. I suppose it was the intemperate language which had extended sometimes to casting doubt on his capacity for rational thought. You mention WTC 7 and it could well have been his furious passion on that subject and our naïve stupidity in not seeing it his way which was the big off-put. It is interesting how often intelligent people can let themselves down as persuaders because they become so sure about something on inadequate evidence and get frustrated and furious at their consequent inability to prove what they are so certain about. Of course that tendency is built in to a creature that ran Inquisitions and burned witches (just for two of a hundred examples) and no doubt is closely associated with the ability of teams and tribes to bond. I so dislike false certainties and bad arguments (including ones thought sufficient but just missing something) that I think I will do my poor best at the bonding business by the human equivalents of defleaing which for me includes being willing to play handicap matches with almost anyone at my tennis club. (Handicap? Yup. Court/Real/Royal tennis).

    Read More
  70. @Sam Shama
    "The Chomsky Deflection" - sounds like a chess strategy Robin, one whose existence and efficacy I was unaware of ; until now, that is. The criticism should be self-evident. Nevertheless, after having just verified Chomsky's arguments, I discovered that Rurik's reply was the precise version drawn from the stock in trade handbook of SJW brigades.

    I don't mind at all that you support his position [why should I?], however, if you follow my argument carefully, you will notice that I was simply insisting that he practice and accordingly diversify his self-proclaimed universality of choice, morality etc. occasionally away from his exclusive target. I hope you see that. It isn't at all that Israel should be shielded from criticism, but if one preaches the universality of lofty principles, they ought be invariant under all schemes, in other words, universal. Chomsky's was not a response to universality and therefore subject to your criticism.

    (Furthermore, ever make an accounting of why America gives so much money to so many foreign nations [Israel being the largest]? And why did all the great colonial powers do the very same? I am sure you have an answer in mind, but I suspect it is simpler than the reality.)

    I don’t want to let down the reputation of the empire on which the sun never set Sam but your closing parenthetical par. surprised me. Actually on two grounds but take the idea of the great colonial powers giving much money to foreign nations as the first surprise in itself.

    Britain subsidised many foreign nations in its 18th and 19th century wars but that doesn’t seem to be what you had in mind. Nor should the European colonial powers be given credit for the missionary activity which actually helped their subjects. Spain in particular, was almost wholly extractive apart from its conferring the gift of the Catholic faith on the heathen. France probably did more through government to educate its colonial subjects than Britain although clearly Indians got huge and valuable doses of western education once the Brits ruled India.

    Maybe the word “gives” should be the starting point because it suggests no quid pro quo, or even an expectation of one. So what do the “givers” demand in return, what do they expect, how much institutional inertia is built in to the system including employment of jobsworths in NGOs, departments of state and at or under the UN?

    Apart from making politicians and many voters feel good when giving (other people’s) money to save starving Ethiopian children I suppose the logic of the welfare state flows over to world citizenship especially for those of Christian background (and possibly Muslim if their countries were richer: as the Saudi financed madrassas suggests). Ancient Judaism didn’t show strong feelings for non Jews but modern Jewry has presumably internalised Enlightenment values and certainly seen how the big man business applies everywhere, not just amongst medieval aristocrats and pig owning Papuan chiefs but self-made businessmen too so Jews now famously reach out with charitable giving to all the people of the countries they live in. (Yes, “famously” perhaps does imply “not anonymously” but there is a very good argument that humble anonymous giving is not necessarily the best in effect because it doesn’t inspire others to give),

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I reckon the Spanish were the most extractive, followed by the Portuguese and French, yet I would not paint with the same brush nor brand exiguous, the contributions of the British to their colonial subjects. I do realise that my position stands sharply discordant with the received view of colonialism, but there it is, after weighing the subsequent events and conditions of many of its former colonies, I remain firm in the conclusion that the British system imparted benefits far beyond the scope of simple arithmetical calculus.

    More to the point, Britain had great expenditures on conquering armies and most of the taxes collected financed local expenditures and therefore benefited the local economies. While gold, mahogany and spices were shipped back home, it couldn't economically justify having empire. And you don't need to control a country to operate commercially: E.g., international companies extract oil in the Third World today, paying off the local dictator. It is true that the process of conquest, starting with the East India Company's own army, was mostly aimed at forcing local nabobs to agree to trade, one would have thought the nabobs would realize the value of free trade, but apparently they saw no more benefit in trade than robbing or heavily taxing it. Still, you don't need to control a country to trade with it, and conquest is expensive. So why did their Majesties' governments do this for a few centuries? [The answer to this has certain implications for the USA-Israel-UK dynamic]

    To be contd.

  71. The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews installed at virtually every level of the US government, including the Pentagon. Certainly, there’s no other group of people whose activities can be traced directly to the sorry state of affairs in which this country finds itself today.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews
     
    Or, those Others afflicted by Astigmatism with the advancement of years.
  72. @geokat62
    Sam, I hope you don't mind my interjecting at this point, but you know me (passion for truth and justice... and all that).

    If it's true that one can take the measure of a man by gauging the quality of his soul, then based on my albeit limited interactions with these two individuals, but more importantly based on the content of their comments, I'd have to say that Rurik's soul shines as bright as the north star.

    Now before someone accuses me of bias (of being Rurik's ilk), just remember that I suffered verbal abuse at Rurik's hands, as well... when he repeatedly called me a "goat" for not agreeing with him that building 7 was an inside job.

    My 2 cents, Sam.

    I suspect geo that we are simply of a like mind in many respects. A shared esteem for the ancient virtues of veracity for instance. ~A love for the truth.~ But yet I’m none the less humbled (floored ; ) by your generous forbearance.

    I hope I can endeavor to aspire to a small shred of such an honor, coming as it is, from you.

    Read More
  73. @Sam Shama
    If unquestioningly submitting to the notion that "the Jew is at the root of all ills", is the litmus test, then I am afraid I am tribal.

    Hi Sam,

    “the Jew is at the root of all ills”

    hmm, that little ditty is in quotes. Almost like you’re quoting me. But you would never do that now would you Sam, put nasty words in my mouth and imply I said something really dumb and objectionable, would you?

    And for the record, ‘the Jew” is not at the root of all ills. Sometimes I think there’s some of them that’d like to think so. As if they were a Dr. Evil of sorts with megalomaniacal fantasies of controlling the world. But it’s not so. They just wield unfair and often negative influence over a lot of the West today, especially when it comes to Israel or wars or wars for Israel, and for that, I do not give them a pass. But then again, neither do a lot of Jews, who also happen to be some of the best voices against the madness and evil of these wars.

    Read More
  74. @RobinG
    SAM'S USE OF "CHOMSKY DEFLECTION"

    Hi Geo.
    The "Chomsky Deflection" is calling someone a hypocrite for singling out Israel. It's been publically debated and debunked. Now, I haven't read all Rurik said, he's too long-winded, and he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is 'the worst' or words to that effect. But his point is defensible.

    Americans have every right to single out Israel because, unlike every other man-made Hell-hole, Israel is openly and unapologetically supported by our government. This makes us (the ostensible government by the people) directly responsible, via military and financial aid, UN votes and vetoes, for all the crimes the Zionist state has committed and is committing. Some of us don't like it (or being scammed into wars for Israel's benefit, but that's a slightly different argument). In fact we are disgusted, ashamed, angry, etc., and we have a greater responsibility to address this.

    So, even though I have had disagreements with Rurik on other topics, I support his justification for targeting Israel. I hope Sam can understand that.

    Hi Robin,

    I’ll try not to be too long-winded. I know I’m often guilty of that ; )

    he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect.

    for the record, Israel is “the worst” offender of the use of American foreign aid by using it to oppress and torment and murder innocent people whose only ‘crime’ is that they exist on their own land. Just so we’re straight on that ; )

    his justification for targeting Israel.

    but I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone. I’m not targeting them, I’m criticizing them. I want them to stop murdering and humiliating people. I want them to stop targeting children in the crosshairs of their sniper rifles and shooting them with ammunition I’m forced to help pay for. – And then claim I’m morally complicit in the crime. That I and all other Americans are just as bad as they are. No, we’re not!

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    "I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone"

    If you insist. But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam's "KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., ". No objection here, they deserve it. I'd like to stop thinking about Israel, but unfortunately they've made themselves the schwerpunkt. Also, I think Sam (purposely?) misconstrued your use of "universal". Whatever. He's quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move! :)
  75. @schmenz
    I'm not so sure that even when a judge is involved to hear cases of probable cause and whatnot that we would be any better off. While there are still honorable men sitting in judge's chairs far too many of them are hacks and lickspittles, or mere political appointees who can be counted on to give Big Brother anything he wants.

    I don't see any workable solution, alas.

    Great article though.

    I disagree. Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. When it comes to promotions to the next level, what few honorable judges there are, stay where they are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    " . . . Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. . . ."

    Federal judges are creatures of politics. They're ex-political hacks, ex-campaign managers, personal friends of U.S. senators, and the like. And, yes, some of them--like the infamous Jay Bybee of the torture bullshit--get their judgeships for "services rendered," as it were.

    In any case, there's nothing special about "a lawyer who knew a politician."
  76. @Wizard of Oz
    I don't want to let down the reputation of the empire on which the sun never set Sam but your closing parenthetical par. surprised me. Actually on two grounds but take the idea of the great colonial powers giving much money to foreign nations as the first surprise in itself.

    Britain subsidised many foreign nations in its 18th and 19th century wars but that doesn't seem to be what you had in mind. Nor should the European colonial powers be given credit for the missionary activity which actually helped their subjects. Spain in particular, was almost wholly extractive apart from its conferring the gift of the Catholic faith on the heathen. France probably did more through government to educate its colonial subjects than Britain although clearly Indians got huge and valuable doses of western education once the Brits ruled India.

    Maybe the word "gives" should be the starting point because it suggests no quid pro quo, or even an expectation of one. So what do the "givers" demand in return, what do they expect, how much institutional inertia is built in to the system including employment of jobsworths in NGOs, departments of state and at or under the UN?

    Apart from making politicians and many voters feel good when giving (other people's) money to save starving Ethiopian children I suppose the logic of the welfare state flows over to world citizenship especially for those of Christian background (and possibly Muslim if their countries were richer: as the Saudi financed madrassas suggests). Ancient Judaism didn't show strong feelings for non Jews but modern Jewry has presumably internalised Enlightenment values and certainly seen how the big man business applies everywhere, not just amongst medieval aristocrats and pig owning Papuan chiefs but self-made businessmen too so Jews now famously reach out with charitable giving to all the people of the countries they live in. (Yes, "famously" perhaps does imply "not anonymously" but there is a very good argument that humble anonymous giving is not necessarily the best in effect because it doesn't inspire others to give),

    I reckon the Spanish were the most extractive, followed by the Portuguese and French, yet I would not paint with the same brush nor brand exiguous, the contributions of the British to their colonial subjects. I do realise that my position stands sharply discordant with the received view of colonialism, but there it is, after weighing the subsequent events and conditions of many of its former colonies, I remain firm in the conclusion that the British system imparted benefits far beyond the scope of simple arithmetical calculus.

    More to the point, Britain had great expenditures on conquering armies and most of the taxes collected financed local expenditures and therefore benefited the local economies. While gold, mahogany and spices were shipped back home, it couldn’t economically justify having empire. And you don’t need to control a country to operate commercially: E.g., international companies extract oil in the Third World today, paying off the local dictator. It is true that the process of conquest, starting with the East India Company’s own army, was mostly aimed at forcing local nabobs to agree to trade, one would have thought the nabobs would realize the value of free trade, but apparently they saw no more benefit in trade than robbing or heavily taxing it. Still, you don’t need to control a country to trade with it, and conquest is expensive. So why did their Majesties’ governments do this for a few centuries? [The answer to this has certain implications for the USA-Israel-UK dynamic]

    To be contd.

    Read More
  77. @Carroll Price
    The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews installed at virtually every level of the US government, including the Pentagon. Certainly, there's no other group of people whose activities can be traced directly to the sorry state of affairs in which this country finds itself today.

    The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews

    Or, those Others afflicted by Astigmatism with the advancement of years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    I see you're back Sam. Things a little slow these days with the loan shark business? But not to worry. Since most business are somewhat seasonal, things are bound to pick up once those deferred payments become due on Feb. 1st.
  78. @Sam Shama
    Point taken, but I don't think RTW is ever crude. Biting humour? Yes.

    Also haven't you noticed, that here at the UR, politeness is a tradition observed more in its breach than in its observance?

    Hello Sam

    I notice the party most vocal about ‘gentlemanly behaviors’ continues with a desultory fire from beyond the truce line. If indeed I have on occasion or two been guilty of being ‘crude’ it shouldn’t require rocket science to understand why. How is it, do you suppose, we can have an agreement suggested by the one party, accepted by the 2nd party (meself) and said 1st party cannot sit still and observe the agreement? It’s like so many of the neo-Platonic pansies who, when setting up a debate with rules made to suit themselves, endlessly object to any point that does not suit their fancy, even to the death of the matter under discussion, and that’s the rule they embrace; no matter they took a hit, like the Black Knight in Monty Python’s Holy Grail, denial is paramount, for instance in a case where a truce is repeatedly violated by the one party claiming the high ground of ‘gentlemanly’ behaviors .. but isn’t keeping to one’s word the very pinnacle of the ‘gentlemanly’ concept? (rhetorical question.)

    One would think that, because of my indigenous philosophical background, a Mormon, taking offense at the consequent necessary, culturally integrated humor in debate required of myself to be true to my origins, has labelled this errant soul a ‘new world’ meshumad ;o)

    On related topic, due to certainty my recent (you found to be “balanced”) more lengthy than typical comment would draw sufficient disapprobation, I’ve blogged it at my page with some amendments and a swipe at Plato in new conclusion :D

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2015/12/30/throwing-stones-from-glass-houses/

    Cheers!

    Read More
  79. @Ronald Thomas West
    Hi Kiza

    I went looking for a story from some years back on an osx fix that apple had left unrepaired for years. Didn't find it but did find this...

    http://www.theheraldbusinessjournal.com/article/20141112/BIZ02/141119611

    ...on system vulnerabilities that went 'undetected' for decades.

    My observation would be, by the time personalities like James Comey are demanding 100% access, likely it's a smokescreen and they've probably had access already for a very long time.

    Insofar as encryption, no matter how sophisticated or strong, wouldn't it only require a simple key-log trojan to be defeated?

    My assumption has been (for a very long time) if the government wants it, they have it. On the other hand, 'they' won't always know what they want; insofar as any individuals who've, for whatever reasons or circumstance, managed to keep their profile under the radar. There is simply too much stuff to look through.

    You over-rate Federal employees, with State employees being far worse. If you ever meet and converse with a few, you quickly realize that most are well below average intelligence and most are entirely void of ambition. Which explains why working for the government is one of the few things they could ever be successful at doing.

    Read More
  80. @Art
    Sam,

    Don't know about you Jews being so smart. Our Clinton president and his lovely wife have amassed 150 million personally and another 150 in their family foundation (slush fund). (Bill raped many women to boot. (Hillary too)). They will never see jail. Now that's a country!

    Art

    Art,
    You make a very valid comparison. How many know criminals within the US government have ever suffered so much as a weak indictment for their criminal conduct? To name only two, torturer enablers, Roberto Gonzales and John Yoo are still running around scot-free.

    Read More
  81. @Rurik
    Hi Robin,

    I'll try not to be too long-winded. I know I'm often guilty of that ; )

    he may have cocked it up by saying Israel is ‘the worst’ or words to that effect.
     
    for the record, Israel is "the worst" offender of the use of American foreign aid by using it to oppress and torment and murder innocent people whose only 'crime' is that they exist on their own land. Just so we're straight on that ; )

    his justification for targeting Israel.
     
    but I wince at that characterization of "targeting" anyone. I'm not targeting them, I'm criticizing them. I want them to stop murdering and humiliating people. I want them to stop targeting children in the crosshairs of their sniper rifles and shooting them with ammunition I'm forced to help pay for. - And then claim I'm morally complicit in the crime. That I and all other Americans are just as bad as they are. No, we're not!

    “I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone”

    If you insist. But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam’s “KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., “. No objection here, they deserve it. I’d like to stop thinking about Israel, but unfortunately they’ve made themselves the schwerpunkt. Also, I think Sam (purposely?) misconstrued your use of “universal”. Whatever. He’s quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move! :)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hello Robin,
    my Chess game is not where I should wish it, but I must say, that little Allemande-ish, felt oddly effective; wonder if Rurik agrees.....:-)
  82. @Wizard of Oz
    Interesting question about assessing whether religion or ethnicity is the bigger dividing criterion BUT... I think your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs I believe. But, more to the point is the fact that Pakistan is overwhelmingly Sunni and has a bigger population than the Arab countries. Also Turkey is predominantly Sunni and, maybe, though I am not sure, Indonesia which has the biggest Muslim population of any single country I believe. Bangladesh?? Not Shia anyway. The Kurds are more Kurd than Sunni I guess and Hamas is probably Sunni but supported by Iran. I forgot Egypt which I suppose is mostly Sunni and Arab but no bigger than Turkey so my question re premise remains.

    Hello Wizard,

    your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs

    yes, you’re right, the Alawites are Arabs, but yet they seem a bit removed somehow from the Arabs farther to the east, it seems to me. And just as the indigenous citizens of Europe are all European, yet there are distinct and often hostile sub-groups among them. Sort of the same way the Irish and English have seemed to use religion (Catholic vs. Protestant) to exacerbate what might otherwise simply be a tribal conflict between the tribes of England and the tribes of Ireland.

    So if you forget for the moment all the other Sunni Muslims in Pakistan or Indonesia, and concentrate for the purposes of the query on the greater Levant, is it possible that the divide between Sunni and Shiite has tribal motivations?

    Or, on a related note, is it possible that the hostilities between Pakistan and India are not wholly due to religion, but also include tribal realities?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You certainly open up the scope of "tribalism". Within India alone you could probably find as many consciously distinct "tribes" as in the rest of Eurasia including far more than those called "tribal(s)" in India.

    To examine the questions you raise I think I would start with finding some universals like "team spirit" and its possibly vicarious version in sporting fan groups on the evo-psycholological side and near universals like shared economic conditions or interests on the possibly next most important side. Then one might look at conditions for crossovers like Indians of all religions and ethnicities supporting their cricket team against Pakistan and everyone else... Come to think of it that leads to thoughts about diverting the unthinking instinctive masses into relatively harmless "tribalisms" thereby perhaps creating a struggle for young souls between grim jihadist preaching Imams and the charismatic head coach of the All Arabia Football Confederation...

  83. But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam’s “KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., “. No objection here, they deserve it.

    If it appears I criticize Israel most, that is a shame, because they’re not the ones I feel are most deserving of reprobation. Rather it is the likes of Clinton and Bush, Hagee and Woolsey, Obama and McCain whom I’m most appalled at. They make Bibi look like an angel by comparison.

    Whatever. He’s quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move! :)

    you’re often rather oblique in your schwerpunkt Robin ; )

    Read More
  84. @Sam Shama

    The only terrorist Americans have to fear are the of 5th column, dual loyalist, Zionist Jews
     
    Or, those Others afflicted by Astigmatism with the advancement of years.

    I see you’re back Sam. Things a little slow these days with the loan shark business? But not to worry. Since most business are somewhat seasonal, things are bound to pick up once those deferred payments become due on Feb. 1st.

    Read More
  85. Phil, Two things I hope are constructive:

    1) There is no conflict “in principle” between security and liberty. You either have both or neither. The key is to remember that you are the only one that can keep yourself safe from the government.

    2) You are a writer now. Learn how to use a f-ing comma! Geezus. Seriously if some writer became a spy and never tried to learn a damn thing about it, you would point and laugh. So why are you torturing me with this amateur bullshit? You are a hard man to parse, sir.

    Macroman

    Read More
  86. KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    You can n’t surveil everybody.

    “That the very same people who support surveillance of Americans and vehemently denounce efforts by civil libertarians to end the NSA’s scooping up our data indiscriminately are now screaming foul when confronted with their own canoodling with Israeli foreign agents is the kind of hypocrisy we have come to expect from this crowd. Spying on ordinary Americans is fine with them, but when it comes to stopping Israeli espionage – well, that’s just not cool.”

    http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2015/12/31/mossad-caucus-exposed/

    Read More
  87. @Rurik
    Hello Wizard,

    your premise is wrong in suggesting that most Sunni are Arab and most Shia Persian or Alawite. The Alawites in Syria are Arabs
     
    yes, you're right, the Alawites are Arabs, but yet they seem a bit removed somehow from the Arabs farther to the east, it seems to me. And just as the indigenous citizens of Europe are all European, yet there are distinct and often hostile sub-groups among them. Sort of the same way the Irish and English have seemed to use religion (Catholic vs. Protestant) to exacerbate what might otherwise simply be a tribal conflict between the tribes of England and the tribes of Ireland.

    So if you forget for the moment all the other Sunni Muslims in Pakistan or Indonesia, and concentrate for the purposes of the query on the greater Levant, is it possible that the divide between Sunni and Shiite has tribal motivations?

    Or, on a related note, is it possible that the hostilities between Pakistan and India are not wholly due to religion, but also include tribal realities?

    You certainly open up the scope of “tribalism”. Within India alone you could probably find as many consciously distinct “tribes” as in the rest of Eurasia including far more than those called “tribal(s)” in India.

    To examine the questions you raise I think I would start with finding some universals like “team spirit” and its possibly vicarious version in sporting fan groups on the evo-psycholological side and near universals like shared economic conditions or interests on the possibly next most important side. Then one might look at conditions for crossovers like Indians of all religions and ethnicities supporting their cricket team against Pakistan and everyone else… Come to think of it that leads to thoughts about diverting the unthinking instinctive masses into relatively harmless “tribalisms” thereby perhaps creating a struggle for young souls between grim jihadist preaching Imams and the charismatic head coach of the All Arabia Football Confederation…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    Several years ago, a man who had been born and raised in India told me there's at least 7 different languages spoken in India. He made the comment that, generally speaking, if you leave your own province to enter another, you will very likely be unable to converse with local people due to their language being completely different from your own. It appears that English has emerged as somewhat of a universal language of the country, although many rural dwellers never learn English, or any other language, than their own.
  88. You’re right about the soccer teams, especially in places like Ireland.

    So for the purposes of simplicity, let’s leave out the Kurds and Turks and let’s just limit the scope of the question to today’s conflict between the Sunnis and the Shiites fighting in Syria.

    Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam, (some silly rift from the seventh century over Muhammad’s heirs) or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.

    here’s a map of the ethnic breakdown of Syria

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/08/Levant_Ethnicity_lg-smaller1-zoom.jpg

    as with all of these that I could find, they all draw a distinct division between the Sunni Muslims who appear to inhabit much of the eastern and central mass of Syria, and the Alawites and others who appear to inhabit the Western coast on the Med.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fff_282.jpg

    Again, all the information I can find on the particulars seems to draw an identifiable ethic distinction between the Sunni Arabs (who are likely closely related to the Sunnis of Saudi Arabia for instance, or the Sunnis of Iraq) vs. the Alawites who are distinct.

    Yet, I don’t think this ethnic (tribal) divide is ever mentioned. They always color the conflict as being a religious one between Sunni and Shiite. But I suspect there’s more to the story.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam,... or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.
     
    Happy New Year, Rurik.

    I guess I, along with everyone else, simply assumed the Sunni and Alawite of Syria were ethnic Arabs. You are the first to question this assumption, as far as I know. I did a little digging and here's one reference I managed to find:

    Alawites are ethnic Arabs and members of a Shi'ite sect located in the eastern Mediterranean region, whose syncretic and secretive religious practices have historically made them suspect to Sunni religious authorities. United under the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, under the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon (1923-1943), they became divided when the borders of the modern Middle East were drawn up.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/william-eichler/turkey’s-arab-alawites-and-syrian-conflict
     
    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.
  89. @Wizard of Oz
    You certainly open up the scope of "tribalism". Within India alone you could probably find as many consciously distinct "tribes" as in the rest of Eurasia including far more than those called "tribal(s)" in India.

    To examine the questions you raise I think I would start with finding some universals like "team spirit" and its possibly vicarious version in sporting fan groups on the evo-psycholological side and near universals like shared economic conditions or interests on the possibly next most important side. Then one might look at conditions for crossovers like Indians of all religions and ethnicities supporting their cricket team against Pakistan and everyone else... Come to think of it that leads to thoughts about diverting the unthinking instinctive masses into relatively harmless "tribalisms" thereby perhaps creating a struggle for young souls between grim jihadist preaching Imams and the charismatic head coach of the All Arabia Football Confederation...

    Several years ago, a man who had been born and raised in India told me there’s at least 7 different languages spoken in India. He made the comment that, generally speaking, if you leave your own province to enter another, you will very likely be unable to converse with local people due to their language being completely different from your own. It appears that English has emerged as somewhat of a universal language of the country, although many rural dwellers never learn English, or any other language, than their own.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Did he have a thick accent? I think you may have misheard:) What about "at least 700 languages"?
  90. @Rurik
    You're right about the soccer teams, especially in places like Ireland.

    So for the purposes of simplicity, let's leave out the Kurds and Turks and let's just limit the scope of the question to today's conflict between the Sunnis and the Shiites fighting in Syria.

    Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam, (some silly rift from the seventh century over Muhammad's heirs) or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.

    here's a map of the ethnic breakdown of Syria

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/files/2013/08/Levant_Ethnicity_lg-smaller1-zoom.jpg

    as with all of these that I could find, they all draw a distinct division between the Sunni Muslims who appear to inhabit much of the eastern and central mass of Syria, and the Alawites and others who appear to inhabit the Western coast on the Med.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/fff_282.jpg

    Again, all the information I can find on the particulars seems to draw an identifiable ethic distinction between the Sunni Arabs (who are likely closely related to the Sunnis of Saudi Arabia for instance, or the Sunnis of Iraq) vs. the Alawites who are distinct.

    Yet, I don't think this ethnic (tribal) divide is ever mentioned. They always color the conflict as being a religious one between Sunni and Shiite. But I suspect there's more to the story.

    Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam,… or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.

    Happy New Year, Rurik.

    I guess I, along with everyone else, simply assumed the Sunni and Alawite of Syria were ethnic Arabs. You are the first to question this assumption, as far as I know. I did a little digging and here’s one reference I managed to find:

    Alawites are ethnic Arabs and members of a Shi’ite sect located in the eastern Mediterranean region, whose syncretic and secretive religious practices have historically made them suspect to Sunni religious authorities. United under the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, under the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon (1923-1943), they became divided when the borders of the modern Middle East were drawn up.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/william-eichler/turkey’s-arab-alawites-and-syrian-conflict

    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Happy New Year Geo!

    let's make it a great one shall we

    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.
     
    from this sentence, I would have to say not very:

    "The Syrian conflict is a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government".

    this sounds to me like exactly the way they would dishonestly and predictably characterize the conflict in Ukraine as "a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government" - The "tyrannical" government being Vlad Putin. While ignoring that the foundations to the conflict are between ethnic Ukrainians vs. ethnic Russians- and territory and resources and tribalism and historical grievances, and so forth. Things almost never mentioned, but are at the heart of the conflict. And more to the point, are being cynically manipulated for the agenda and greater designs of the Fiend.

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?
  91. @geokat62

    Are they fighting over the particulars of Islam,... or are they fighting over ancient to contemporary tribal (ethnic) differences and hatreds? And the religion is window dressing.
     
    Happy New Year, Rurik.

    I guess I, along with everyone else, simply assumed the Sunni and Alawite of Syria were ethnic Arabs. You are the first to question this assumption, as far as I know. I did a little digging and here's one reference I managed to find:

    Alawites are ethnic Arabs and members of a Shi'ite sect located in the eastern Mediterranean region, whose syncretic and secretive religious practices have historically made them suspect to Sunni religious authorities. United under the Ottoman Empire and, for a time, under the French Mandate for Syria and the Lebanon (1923-1943), they became divided when the borders of the modern Middle East were drawn up.

    https://www.opendemocracy.net/arab-awakening/william-eichler/turkey’s-arab-alawites-and-syrian-conflict
     
    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.

    Happy New Year Geo!

    let’s make it a great one shall we

    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.

    from this sentence, I would have to say not very:

    “The Syrian conflict is a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government”.

    this sounds to me like exactly the way they would dishonestly and predictably characterize the conflict in Ukraine as “a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government” – The “tyrannical” government being Vlad Putin. While ignoring that the foundations to the conflict are between ethnic Ukrainians vs. ethnic Russians- and territory and resources and tribalism and historical grievances, and so forth. Things almost never mentioned, but are at the heart of the conflict. And more to the point, are being cynically manipulated for the agenda and greater designs of the Fiend.

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?
     
    I think you know where I stand on that matter, Rurik.

    As you know, my overriding concern is to discover the truth. So I was merely trying to confirm one way or the other whether Alawite Syrians are ethnically distinct from Sunni Syrians. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If anyone else could shed some light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.
  92. @Rurik
    Happy New Year Geo!

    let's make it a great one shall we

    Not sure how reliable this source is, however.
     
    from this sentence, I would have to say not very:

    "The Syrian conflict is a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government".

    this sounds to me like exactly the way they would dishonestly and predictably characterize the conflict in Ukraine as "a democratic struggle against a tyrannical government" - The "tyrannical" government being Vlad Putin. While ignoring that the foundations to the conflict are between ethnic Ukrainians vs. ethnic Russians- and territory and resources and tribalism and historical grievances, and so forth. Things almost never mentioned, but are at the heart of the conflict. And more to the point, are being cynically manipulated for the agenda and greater designs of the Fiend.

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?

    I think you know where I stand on that matter, Rurik.

    As you know, my overriding concern is to discover the truth. So I was merely trying to confirm one way or the other whether Alawite Syrians are ethnically distinct from Sunni Syrians. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If anyone else could shed some light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bondo
    my view, question irrelevant

    right now all syrians of whatever group, region are syrian.

    before the appearance of the fiend, they managed to live together, intermarry as happened in iraq before the fiend appeared there
    , @Rurik
    a laudable agenda Geo,

    in and of itself

    no less so than stopping more of the senseless bloodshed and I think you'd agree
  93. @geokat62

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?
     
    I think you know where I stand on that matter, Rurik.

    As you know, my overriding concern is to discover the truth. So I was merely trying to confirm one way or the other whether Alawite Syrians are ethnically distinct from Sunni Syrians. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If anyone else could shed some light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

    my view, question irrelevant

    right now all syrians of whatever group, region are syrian.

    before the appearance of the fiend, they managed to live together, intermarry as happened in iraq before the fiend appeared there

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    agreed bondo,

    but the only reason it's become significant at all is because the Fiend is using those ethnic and religious fault lines to foment their strife and wars with..

    just like they do everywhere. Always.

    war and strife and hatred are mother's milk to the Fiend

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5203/5340709553_2afe6f9940_z.jpg
  94. @geokat62

    Perhaps the better we all understand these things, the better we can all work to thwart the hell-spawn agenda of the Fiend. No?
     
    I think you know where I stand on that matter, Rurik.

    As you know, my overriding concern is to discover the truth. So I was merely trying to confirm one way or the other whether Alawite Syrians are ethnically distinct from Sunni Syrians. Nothing more, nothing less.

    If anyone else could shed some light on this matter, it would be greatly appreciated.

    a laudable agenda Geo,

    in and of itself

    no less so than stopping more of the senseless bloodshed and I think you’d agree

    Read More
  95. @bondo
    my view, question irrelevant

    right now all syrians of whatever group, region are syrian.

    before the appearance of the fiend, they managed to live together, intermarry as happened in iraq before the fiend appeared there

    agreed bondo,

    but the only reason it’s become significant at all is because the Fiend is using those ethnic and religious fault lines to foment their strife and wars with..

    just like they do everywhere. Always.

    war and strife and hatred are mother’s milk to the Fiend

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5203/5340709553_2afe6f9940_z.jpg

    Read More
  96. @Rurik
    agreed bondo,

    but the only reason it's become significant at all is because the Fiend is using those ethnic and religious fault lines to foment their strife and wars with..

    just like they do everywhere. Always.

    war and strife and hatred are mother's milk to the Fiend

    http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5203/5340709553_2afe6f9940_z.jpg

    yes

    Read More
  97. @Carroll Price
    Several years ago, a man who had been born and raised in India told me there's at least 7 different languages spoken in India. He made the comment that, generally speaking, if you leave your own province to enter another, you will very likely be unable to converse with local people due to their language being completely different from your own. It appears that English has emerged as somewhat of a universal language of the country, although many rural dwellers never learn English, or any other language, than their own.

    Did he have a thick accent? I think you may have misheard:) What about “at least 700 languages”?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Kiza
    As usual, you type about things you do not know much about. For you, language and a dialect are the same thing. India may have 700 dialects, but definitely not 700 languages, similar to China which have about 50 dialects of one Chinese language.
  98. @Carroll Price
    I disagree. Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. When it comes to promotions to the next level, what few honorable judges there are, stay where they are.

    ” . . . Judgeships, particularly on the federal level, are highly sought-after political prizes awarded only to those who faithfully serve the interest of the State. . . .”

    Federal judges are creatures of politics. They’re ex-political hacks, ex-campaign managers, personal friends of U.S. senators, and the like. And, yes, some of them–like the infamous Jay Bybee of the torture bullshit–get their judgeships for “services rendered,” as it were.

    In any case, there’s nothing special about “a lawyer who knew a politician.”

    Read More
  99. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    I think people in awakening mood to know the surround situation that real truth. Especially the abc of israeli penetration in decisive US foreign politics as well as domestic politics THAT harming genuine US interest, dragging US people into uncertainty.

    Read More
  100. @RobinG
    "I wince at that characterization of “targeting” anyone"

    If you insist. But you do aim most of your criticism at Israel, as opposed to Sam's "KSA, Turkey, Iran, Pakistan etc., ". No objection here, they deserve it. I'd like to stop thinking about Israel, but unfortunately they've made themselves the schwerpunkt. Also, I think Sam (purposely?) misconstrued your use of "universal". Whatever. He's quite right: the Chomsky Deflection is a chess move! :)

    Hello Robin,
    my Chess game is not where I should wish it, but I must say, that little Allemande-ish, felt oddly effective; wonder if Rurik agrees…..:-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Sam,

    I'm trying to reply (4 times now). If this goes through, I'll follow with a gambit.
    , @RobinG
    Michael Flynn's opening gambit was his "willful decision" comment. This 'lost leader' gained him sympathy with the anti-chaos and anti-regime-change crowds, and some misplaced confidence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccdeANvo2bg
    Ex-DIA boss Michael Flynn: White House took "willful decision" to fund, train Syria Islamists ISIS

    The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion.
  101. @Sam Shama
    Hello Robin,
    my Chess game is not where I should wish it, but I must say, that little Allemande-ish, felt oddly effective; wonder if Rurik agrees.....:-)

    Sam,

    I’m trying to reply (4 times now). If this goes through, I’ll follow with a gambit.

    Read More
  102. @Wizard of Oz
    Did he have a thick accent? I think you may have misheard:) What about "at least 700 languages"?

    As usual, you type about things you do not know much about. For you, language and a dialect are the same thing. India may have 700 dialects, but definitely not 700 languages, similar to China which have about 50 dialects of one Chinese language.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Is your command of English such that you know the saying about Pots and Kettles?

    Your command of language and logic appear to be of the same order as your prudence and your conversational courtesy. E.g. You don't seem to have noticed that I was asking whether Carroll Price had heard correctly. I could have added a query as to whether he had been told that there were at least 7 language groups but it is not idiomatic to describe someone as speaking a language group.

    If you seriously wish to flaunt pretended knowledge you might care to do something important by taking on Wikipedia, Google and the Hindustan Times. Try searching for "How many different languages in India" and you need not make a fool of yourself again over something as simple to check before opening your mouth as a would-be know-all. True there is a lot to be said about languages and dialects, just as there is about what defines a biological species, but you need to equip yourself for the discussion if you are not to stick out like a boorish and boring sore thumb. (Try practising on why Ukrainian and Russian and/or the old mother tongue of Belarus are different languages or just dialects).

    Nor do you help your case by asserting as if it related to my conversation with Carroll Price that Chinese is one language with "about 50 dialects". True there is one written language in a couple of forms which allows written communication between Chinese people whose languages (or varieties of Chinese, or dialects) are mutually incomprehensible when spoken but you could only regard Cantonese and Putongha (Mandarin or Standard Chinese) as the same language if you were willing to call Russian and French - or Polish to avoid silly quibbles - the same language.

    "For you language and dialect are the same thing"!!! That clumsiness is a clue to me, as is your "similar to China which have [sic]" that English is not your first language. True? Or are you just sufficiently lacking in courtesy and common sense to start a dispute over language without making sure you get your own contribution right?
  103. @Sam Shama
    Hello Robin,
    my Chess game is not where I should wish it, but I must say, that little Allemande-ish, felt oddly effective; wonder if Rurik agrees.....:-)

    Michael Flynn’s opening gambit was his “willful decision” comment. This ‘lost leader’ gained him sympathy with the anti-chaos and anti-regime-change crowds, and some misplaced confidence.

    Ex-DIA boss Michael Flynn: White House took “willful decision” to fund, train Syria Islamists ISIS

    The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    Hello Robin,

    [The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion]
     

    Gainsaying or otherwise whitewashing the transparent motivation of neocons, is a reprobate's labour; and being well stocked in them, the Beltway toils quite indefatigably at it. Which is why the likes of Flynn are a vanishing breed.

    I hold the view that neocons carry version 2.x of the same gene that has found expression in humans from the time homo habilis (?) started including flesh in their diet. With perhaps a mutation or two.

    I will submit to you, that in the ranks of their leadership, are a disproportionate number of jews, [I wonder why?] which then begs the question, as to what the far vaster intelligentsia of gentiles busy with? Even if the hoi polloi are utterly unaware of the state of affairs, what, one is compelled to ask, are the gentile leadership up to? [here I am making the untenable concession that all jewish leaders are 'Israel firsters']. Are gentile leaders all corrupted, mountebanks to the woman [ :-) ] , and entirely compromised by jewish financial power? Or is it that they happen to share the same gene, and financial succour is a mere detail?

    These questions have plagued me for some time, and my early thoughts lead me to believe, that ascribing all ills to "Israel-firsting" is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

  104. @Kiza
    As usual, you type about things you do not know much about. For you, language and a dialect are the same thing. India may have 700 dialects, but definitely not 700 languages, similar to China which have about 50 dialects of one Chinese language.

    Is your command of English such that you know the saying about Pots and Kettles?

    Your command of language and logic appear to be of the same order as your prudence and your conversational courtesy. E.g. You don’t seem to have noticed that I was asking whether Carroll Price had heard correctly. I could have added a query as to whether he had been told that there were at least 7 language groups but it is not idiomatic to describe someone as speaking a language group.

    If you seriously wish to flaunt pretended knowledge you might care to do something important by taking on Wikipedia, Google and the Hindustan Times. Try searching for “How many different languages in India” and you need not make a fool of yourself again over something as simple to check before opening your mouth as a would-be know-all. True there is a lot to be said about languages and dialects, just as there is about what defines a biological species, but you need to equip yourself for the discussion if you are not to stick out like a boorish and boring sore thumb. (Try practising on why Ukrainian and Russian and/or the old mother tongue of Belarus are different languages or just dialects).

    Nor do you help your case by asserting as if it related to my conversation with Carroll Price that Chinese is one language with “about 50 dialects”. True there is one written language in a couple of forms which allows written communication between Chinese people whose languages (or varieties of Chinese, or dialects) are mutually incomprehensible when spoken but you could only regard Cantonese and Putongha (Mandarin or Standard Chinese) as the same language if you were willing to call Russian and French – or Polish to avoid silly quibbles – the same language.

    “For you language and dialect are the same thing”!!! That clumsiness is a clue to me, as is your “similar to China which have [sic]” that English is not your first language. True? Or are you just sufficiently lacking in courtesy and common sense to start a dispute over language without making sure you get your own contribution right?

    Read More
  105. @RobinG
    Michael Flynn's opening gambit was his "willful decision" comment. This 'lost leader' gained him sympathy with the anti-chaos and anti-regime-change crowds, and some misplaced confidence.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccdeANvo2bg
    Ex-DIA boss Michael Flynn: White House took "willful decision" to fund, train Syria Islamists ISIS

    The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion.

    Hello Robin,

    [The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion]

    Gainsaying or otherwise whitewashing the transparent motivation of neocons, is a reprobate’s labour; and being well stocked in them, the Beltway toils quite indefatigably at it. Which is why the likes of Flynn are a vanishing breed.

    I hold the view that neocons carry version 2.x of the same gene that has found expression in humans from the time homo habilis (?) started including flesh in their diet. With perhaps a mutation or two.

    I will submit to you, that in the ranks of their leadership, are a disproportionate number of jews, [I wonder why?] which then begs the question, as to what the far vaster intelligentsia of gentiles busy with? Even if the hoi polloi are utterly unaware of the state of affairs, what, one is compelled to ask, are the gentile leadership up to? [here I am making the untenable concession that all jewish leaders are 'Israel firsters']. Are gentile leaders all corrupted, mountebanks to the woman [ :-) ] , and entirely compromised by jewish financial power? Or is it that they happen to share the same gene, and financial succour is a mere detail?

    These questions have plagued me for some time, and my early thoughts lead me to believe, that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    ... that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.
     
    Happy New Year, Sam.

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters? What I, and most others, are ascribing to the neocons/Israel firsters is their decision to lobby the US gov't to implement their game plan - i.e., to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know what the consequences of that decision have been, don't we? Trillions of taxpayer dollars wasted, over a million lives lost, and millions more displaced from their homes.

    And just wait till the "darling of the neocons" takes power in January 2017 and puts the finishing touches to their game plan... the Israel firsters will be cackling almost as loud as Killary.
  106. @Sam Shama
    Hello Robin,

    [The anti-war warriors were now primed for subversion]
     

    Gainsaying or otherwise whitewashing the transparent motivation of neocons, is a reprobate's labour; and being well stocked in them, the Beltway toils quite indefatigably at it. Which is why the likes of Flynn are a vanishing breed.

    I hold the view that neocons carry version 2.x of the same gene that has found expression in humans from the time homo habilis (?) started including flesh in their diet. With perhaps a mutation or two.

    I will submit to you, that in the ranks of their leadership, are a disproportionate number of jews, [I wonder why?] which then begs the question, as to what the far vaster intelligentsia of gentiles busy with? Even if the hoi polloi are utterly unaware of the state of affairs, what, one is compelled to ask, are the gentile leadership up to? [here I am making the untenable concession that all jewish leaders are 'Israel firsters']. Are gentile leaders all corrupted, mountebanks to the woman [ :-) ] , and entirely compromised by jewish financial power? Or is it that they happen to share the same gene, and financial succour is a mere detail?

    These questions have plagued me for some time, and my early thoughts lead me to believe, that ascribing all ills to "Israel-firsting" is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

    … that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.

    Happy New Year, Sam.

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters? What I, and most others, are ascribing to the neocons/Israel firsters is their decision to lobby the US gov’t to implement their game plan – i.e., to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know what the consequences of that decision have been, don’t we? Trillions of taxpayer dollars wasted, over a million lives lost, and millions more displaced from their homes.

    And just wait till the “darling of the neocons” takes power in January 2017 and puts the finishing touches to their game plan… the Israel firsters will be cackling almost as loud as Killary.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters?
     
    Hi Geo,
    you are not, nor Robin. Many on this forum are, and far too many for me to list, as any cursory count on a random day will bear this assertion out, I am quite sure. Yet my observation is not at all to afford any particularist support for Israel's position, as much as it is to identify a likely error committed as a result of such a position. For it fails to recognise the seminal source of our troubles. A win for Hillary? Are we counting Bernie quite out?. My preference is for Trump. In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America's foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

    Much to think about.
    , @RobinG
    Geo, I've lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

    Paul Pillar explains why the Iranian missile tests are NOT a violation of the JCPOA or any other agreement.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/03/hyping-more-fears-about-iran/
    Hyping More Fears about Iran


    What can we call the Saudi move, castling? ;(
  107. @geokat62

    ... that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.
     
    Happy New Year, Sam.

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters? What I, and most others, are ascribing to the neocons/Israel firsters is their decision to lobby the US gov't to implement their game plan - i.e., to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know what the consequences of that decision have been, don't we? Trillions of taxpayer dollars wasted, over a million lives lost, and millions more displaced from their homes.

    And just wait till the "darling of the neocons" takes power in January 2017 and puts the finishing touches to their game plan... the Israel firsters will be cackling almost as loud as Killary.

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters?

    Hi Geo,
    you are not, nor Robin. Many on this forum are, and far too many for me to list, as any cursory count on a random day will bear this assertion out, I am quite sure. Yet my observation is not at all to afford any particularist support for Israel’s position, as much as it is to identify a likely error committed as a result of such a position. For it fails to recognise the seminal source of our troubles. A win for Hillary? Are we counting Bernie quite out?. My preference is for Trump. In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

    Much to think about.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Sam, you are right. This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn't know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn't you know, the next day someone at UR did just that. You said, "...I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively." Well, that word exclusively does it: of course not. Many motives are in play, and sometimes they converge. (I've so far restrained myself from berating human nature.)

    Now, I'll try posting this w/o the link, in case that's what the problem is. (I've tried to post this several times..) This is at The Saker's blog, where the commenters astutely deconstruct Flynn's lies, from his mission to Moscow. Knight to Rook 4.
    "Interview of Michael T. Flynn, retired United States Army lieutenant general, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)"
    , @geokat62

    In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.
     
    Sam, from one absolute statement to the next. While I agree that not all US FP is driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively, I think a strong case could be made (and has been made, see M&W) that the Zionist project is the primary beneficiary of US MENA policy.
  108. @Sam Shama

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters?
     
    Hi Geo,
    you are not, nor Robin. Many on this forum are, and far too many for me to list, as any cursory count on a random day will bear this assertion out, I am quite sure. Yet my observation is not at all to afford any particularist support for Israel's position, as much as it is to identify a likely error committed as a result of such a position. For it fails to recognise the seminal source of our troubles. A win for Hillary? Are we counting Bernie quite out?. My preference is for Trump. In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America's foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

    Much to think about.

    Sam, you are right. This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that. You said, “…I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.” Well, that word exclusively does it: of course not. Many motives are in play, and sometimes they converge. (I’ve so far restrained myself from berating human nature.)

    Now, I’ll try posting this w/o the link, in case that’s what the problem is. (I’ve tried to post this several times..) This is at The Saker’s blog, where the commenters astutely deconstruct Flynn’s lies, from his mission to Moscow. Knight to Rook 4.
    “Interview of Michael T. Flynn, retired United States Army lieutenant general, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that.
     
    wow Robin, that's rather extraordinary!

    I've been going around here recently saying that no one in their right mind would ever deny the Holocaust happened. In fact that is specifically why I was mocking the very use of the meaningless pejorative Holocaust "denier" as ludicrous because it's always used dishonestly to smear honest people like the ones your friend mentioned - "critics of various aspects of the Holocaust". But that was because I had never imagined anyone could be as ignorant as to deny the very existence of the Holocaust!

    Who was this fool who said it was all a total fraud. I'd can't wait to get a piece of them!
  109. @geokat62

    ... that ascribing all ills to “Israel-firsting” is flawed empiricism, untouched by the critique of reason.
     
    Happy New Year, Sam.

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters? What I, and most others, are ascribing to the neocons/Israel firsters is their decision to lobby the US gov't to implement their game plan - i.e., to remake the ME by regime changing those countries deemed hostile to the Zionist project, all in an effort to enhance the security of the villa in the jungle.

    Nothing more, nothing less. And we all know what the consequences of that decision have been, don't we? Trillions of taxpayer dollars wasted, over a million lives lost, and millions more displaced from their homes.

    And just wait till the "darling of the neocons" takes power in January 2017 and puts the finishing touches to their game plan... the Israel firsters will be cackling almost as loud as Killary.

    Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

    Paul Pillar explains why the Iranian missile tests are NOT a violation of the JCPOA or any other agreement.

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/03/hyping-more-fears-about-iran/

    Hyping More Fears about Iran

    What can we call the Saudi move, castling? ;(

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.
     
    I commend you on your efforts, Robin. But my skepticism was based on the reality that the US political system is completely corrupted... and the fact that only 3 co-sponsors will willing to support this initiative bears this out. That's why I'm in favour of a "root and branch" approach. Listen, my offer of a free coffee still stands. Let me know if you'd like to be added to my Million Man March, A Declaration of Independence from Israel, scheduled for the summer of 2020.
  110. @RobinG
    Sam, you are right. This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn't know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn't you know, the next day someone at UR did just that. You said, "...I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively." Well, that word exclusively does it: of course not. Many motives are in play, and sometimes they converge. (I've so far restrained myself from berating human nature.)

    Now, I'll try posting this w/o the link, in case that's what the problem is. (I've tried to post this several times..) This is at The Saker's blog, where the commenters astutely deconstruct Flynn's lies, from his mission to Moscow. Knight to Rook 4.
    "Interview of Michael T. Flynn, retired United States Army lieutenant general, former director of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)"

    This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that.

    wow Robin, that’s rather extraordinary!

    I’ve been going around here recently saying that no one in their right mind would ever deny the Holocaust happened. In fact that is specifically why I was mocking the very use of the meaningless pejorative Holocaust “denier” as ludicrous because it’s always used dishonestly to smear honest people like the ones your friend mentioned – “critics of various aspects of the Holocaust”. But that was because I had never imagined anyone could be as ignorant as to deny the very existence of the Holocaust!

    Who was this fool who said it was all a total fraud. I’d can’t wait to get a piece of them!

    Read More
  111. @Sam Shama

    Could you tell us who is ascribing all ills to Israel firsters?
     
    Hi Geo,
    you are not, nor Robin. Many on this forum are, and far too many for me to list, as any cursory count on a random day will bear this assertion out, I am quite sure. Yet my observation is not at all to afford any particularist support for Israel's position, as much as it is to identify a likely error committed as a result of such a position. For it fails to recognise the seminal source of our troubles. A win for Hillary? Are we counting Bernie quite out?. My preference is for Trump. In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America's foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

    Much to think about.

    In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.

    Sam, from one absolute statement to the next. While I agree that not all US FP is driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively, I think a strong case could be made (and has been made, see M&W) that the Zionist project is the primary beneficiary of US MENA policy.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    I am re-reading M&W. Will be back in the fullness of time if I have anything useful to offer
  112. @RobinG
    Geo, I've lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

    Paul Pillar explains why the Iranian missile tests are NOT a violation of the JCPOA or any other agreement.
    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/01/03/hyping-more-fears-about-iran/
    Hyping More Fears about Iran


    What can we call the Saudi move, castling? ;(

    Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.

    I commend you on your efforts, Robin. But my skepticism was based on the reality that the US political system is completely corrupted… and the fact that only 3 co-sponsors will willing to support this initiative bears this out. That’s why I’m in favour of a “root and branch” approach. Listen, my offer of a free coffee still stands. Let me know if you’d like to be added to my Million Man March, A Declaration of Independence from Israel, scheduled for the summer of 2020.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Geo,

    This will be a learning experience for both of us. First off, you sound like it's over, but it's still just begun. Next week (I've been promised) Tulsi Gabbard will circulate a "Dear Colleague" letter. That's the standard way to appeal for co-sponsors. No time-line has yet been determined. (The Speaker of the House designates how long the bill will remain in committee.) Indeed, this may come to naught, but I'm not throwing in the towel before the first round.

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.) Are you just crossing the border to rant and rail, or do you have a plan? The Spring protest season is ramping up. April 20 is the AIPAC convention. One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself. It's grown into quite a scene, and this year there will be a rally at the White House followed by a march to the Convention Center. Not that the MSM cares, and not that the general public will notice.

    Only one man has ever succeeded in getting the million. This year, the 10th anniversary, he had at least half a million, which MSM dismissed as a weak showing. I'll take my free coffee in 2021, to celebrate the peaceful dissolution of the state of Israel.
  113. @Rurik

    This week I told a friend that although there are critics of various aspects of the Holocaust, I didn’t know of anyone who denied it outright. Wouldn’t you know, the next day someone at UR did just that.
     
    wow Robin, that's rather extraordinary!

    I've been going around here recently saying that no one in their right mind would ever deny the Holocaust happened. In fact that is specifically why I was mocking the very use of the meaningless pejorative Holocaust "denier" as ludicrous because it's always used dishonestly to smear honest people like the ones your friend mentioned - "critics of various aspects of the Holocaust". But that was because I had never imagined anyone could be as ignorant as to deny the very existence of the Holocaust!

    Who was this fool who said it was all a total fraud. I'd can't wait to get a piece of them!

    Read More
  114. @geokat62

    In any case I am yet to be convinced that all of America’s foreign policy is being driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively.
     
    Sam, from one absolute statement to the next. While I agree that not all US FP is driven for the benefit of Israel exclusively, I think a strong case could be made (and has been made, see M&W) that the Zionist project is the primary beneficiary of US MENA policy.

    I am re-reading M&W. Will be back in the fullness of time if I have anything useful to offer

    Read More
  115. @geokat62

    Geo, I’ve lost my Christmas wager, but onward.
     
    I commend you on your efforts, Robin. But my skepticism was based on the reality that the US political system is completely corrupted... and the fact that only 3 co-sponsors will willing to support this initiative bears this out. That's why I'm in favour of a "root and branch" approach. Listen, my offer of a free coffee still stands. Let me know if you'd like to be added to my Million Man March, A Declaration of Independence from Israel, scheduled for the summer of 2020.

    Geo,

    This will be a learning experience for both of us. First off, you sound like it’s over, but it’s still just begun. Next week (I’ve been promised) Tulsi Gabbard will circulate a “Dear Colleague” letter. That’s the standard way to appeal for co-sponsors. No time-line has yet been determined. (The Speaker of the House designates how long the bill will remain in committee.) Indeed, this may come to naught, but I’m not throwing in the towel before the first round.

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.) Are you just crossing the border to rant and rail, or do you have a plan? The Spring protest season is ramping up. April 20 is the AIPAC convention. One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself. It’s grown into quite a scene, and this year there will be a rally at the White House followed by a march to the Convention Center. Not that the MSM cares, and not that the general public will notice.

    Only one man has ever succeeded in getting the million. This year, the 10th anniversary, he had at least half a million, which MSM dismissed as a weak showing. I’ll take my free coffee in 2021, to celebrate the peaceful dissolution of the state of Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.)
     
    I thought the name of the campaign indicates quite clearly what we'll be demanding... "A Declaration of Independence from Israel," no?

    And here are the top 10 demands we'll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself.
     
    Once again, I commend you for your activism. Not sure why you're not willing to participate in this proposed March. If we could get a few key people to spearhead this initiative, we could try and rally support from those who are anti-war. A good starting point would be to appeal to readers of Unz, Antiwar.com, Mondoweiss, Boiling Frogs, and Consortiun News. As I indicated before, perhaps it would make sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead on something like this. All we need is for someone to get the snowball rolling.

    In the meantime, good luck with the “Dear Colleague” letters. Hopefully, you'll get to double digits before the current session of Congress ends.
  116. @RobinG
    Geo,

    This will be a learning experience for both of us. First off, you sound like it's over, but it's still just begun. Next week (I've been promised) Tulsi Gabbard will circulate a "Dear Colleague" letter. That's the standard way to appeal for co-sponsors. No time-line has yet been determined. (The Speaker of the House designates how long the bill will remain in committee.) Indeed, this may come to naught, but I'm not throwing in the towel before the first round.

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.) Are you just crossing the border to rant and rail, or do you have a plan? The Spring protest season is ramping up. April 20 is the AIPAC convention. One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself. It's grown into quite a scene, and this year there will be a rally at the White House followed by a march to the Convention Center. Not that the MSM cares, and not that the general public will notice.

    Only one man has ever succeeded in getting the million. This year, the 10th anniversary, he had at least half a million, which MSM dismissed as a weak showing. I'll take my free coffee in 2021, to celebrate the peaceful dissolution of the state of Israel.

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.)

    I thought the name of the campaign indicates quite clearly what we’ll be demanding… “A Declaration of Independence from Israel,” no?

    And here are the top 10 demands we’ll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself.

    Once again, I commend you for your activism. Not sure why you’re not willing to participate in this proposed March. If we could get a few key people to spearhead this initiative, we could try and rally support from those who are anti-war. A good starting point would be to appeal to readers of Unz, Antiwar.com, Mondoweiss, Boiling Frogs, and Consortiun News. As I indicated before, perhaps it would make sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead on something like this. All we need is for someone to get the snowball rolling.

    In the meantime, good luck with the “Dear Colleague” letters. Hopefully, you’ll get to double digits before the current session of Congress ends.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    OK, those are solid demands. (Sorry if I missed that. Did you list those before?) And since you've pushed back to 2020, seems like enough lead time. BTW, I never said I wouldn't join your parade. I just mentioned some difficulties of the task, plus the questionable effectiveness of the march itself. But as an element of a campaign (you may hope/believe the crowning element) it's fine.

    You have a big challenge. Probably the biggest part is education about the Israel Lobby influence. Things are coming more in the open, but there are also the vehement deniers, and those with the most toxic influence are people like Chomsky. So there's cognitive dissonance in all directions, plus the covert Zionists who are embedded within the "Palestinian Solidarity" movement itself. (You might want to talk to Alison Weir.)

    Second, you'll probably find that everyone has their own schtick. When you meet actively engaged people and pitch your idea, chances are they will say, "That's great; now here's what I'm doing..." And they'll proceed to tell you about their upcoming conference or trip to N.Korea. So you're going to have to take leadership, and create some sort of team, make strategy including social media --FB, twitter, a website, etc. And it will be hard for you to remain anonymous. (Are you an American fugitive up there?... Do you know Arthur Topham?)

    You'll find allies. Grant Smith (director of IRMEP, the Institute for Reasearch: Middle Eastern Policy) is hard core. Check out his work. He's organizing this year's Israel Lobby Conference, "Israel's Influence: Good or Bad for America?", March 18 at the National Press Club. Grant has plenty of experience with FOIA requests, lawsuits, etc. If you just take your "2. all foreign agents must register under FARA", that's quite a briar patch.

    I didn't put any links here b/c for the past week I can't usually post them to UNZ. (Small amount of paranoia setting in.) Best of luck.
    , @SolontoCroesus
    Do you have a think-tank, geokat62?

    Do you publish position papers, distribute them to congressional staffers, etc?

    do you have some organizing mechanisms, a 501 to collect donations, etc? How can someone get in touch with you to turn a cyber/internet campaign into real live 'boots on the ground'?
  117. @geokat62

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.)
     
    I thought the name of the campaign indicates quite clearly what we'll be demanding... "A Declaration of Independence from Israel," no?

    And here are the top 10 demands we'll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself.
     
    Once again, I commend you for your activism. Not sure why you're not willing to participate in this proposed March. If we could get a few key people to spearhead this initiative, we could try and rally support from those who are anti-war. A good starting point would be to appeal to readers of Unz, Antiwar.com, Mondoweiss, Boiling Frogs, and Consortiun News. As I indicated before, perhaps it would make sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead on something like this. All we need is for someone to get the snowball rolling.

    In the meantime, good luck with the “Dear Colleague” letters. Hopefully, you'll get to double digits before the current session of Congress ends.

    OK, those are solid demands. (Sorry if I missed that. Did you list those before?) And since you’ve pushed back to 2020, seems like enough lead time. BTW, I never said I wouldn’t join your parade. I just mentioned some difficulties of the task, plus the questionable effectiveness of the march itself. But as an element of a campaign (you may hope/believe the crowning element) it’s fine.

    You have a big challenge. Probably the biggest part is education about the Israel Lobby influence. Things are coming more in the open, but there are also the vehement deniers, and those with the most toxic influence are people like Chomsky. So there’s cognitive dissonance in all directions, plus the covert Zionists who are embedded within the “Palestinian Solidarity” movement itself. (You might want to talk to Alison Weir.)

    Second, you’ll probably find that everyone has their own schtick. When you meet actively engaged people and pitch your idea, chances are they will say, “That’s great; now here’s what I’m doing…” And they’ll proceed to tell you about their upcoming conference or trip to N.Korea. So you’re going to have to take leadership, and create some sort of team, make strategy including social media –FB, twitter, a website, etc. And it will be hard for you to remain anonymous. (Are you an American fugitive up there?… Do you know Arthur Topham?)

    You’ll find allies. Grant Smith (director of IRMEP, the Institute for Reasearch: Middle Eastern Policy) is hard core. Check out his work. He’s organizing this year’s Israel Lobby Conference, “Israel’s Influence: Good or Bad for America?”, March 18 at the National Press Club. Grant has plenty of experience with FOIA requests, lawsuits, etc. If you just take your “2. all foreign agents must register under FARA”, that’s quite a briar patch.

    I didn’t put any links here b/c for the past week I can’t usually post them to UNZ. (Small amount of paranoia setting in.) Best of luck.

    Read More
  118. @geokat62

    As for 2020, you have yet to declare the demand of your march. (Power yields nothing without a demand.)
     
    I thought the name of the campaign indicates quite clearly what we'll be demanding... "A Declaration of Independence from Israel," no?

    And here are the top 10 demands we'll be making to break free from Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the facilitators of torture must be brought to justice
    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    One year not so long ago, the only protesters were Neturai Karta and myself.
     
    Once again, I commend you for your activism. Not sure why you're not willing to participate in this proposed March. If we could get a few key people to spearhead this initiative, we could try and rally support from those who are anti-war. A good starting point would be to appeal to readers of Unz, Antiwar.com, Mondoweiss, Boiling Frogs, and Consortiun News. As I indicated before, perhaps it would make sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead on something like this. All we need is for someone to get the snowball rolling.

    In the meantime, good luck with the “Dear Colleague” letters. Hopefully, you'll get to double digits before the current session of Congress ends.

    Do you have a think-tank, geokat62?

    Do you publish position papers, distribute them to congressional staffers, etc?

    do you have some organizing mechanisms, a 501 to collect donations, etc? How can someone get in touch with you to turn a cyber/internet campaign into real live ‘boots on the ground’?

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
    sorry -- I'm confused about which of you, Robin and/or geokat62, is organizing marches or lobbying Congress.



    Having participated in some Code Pink contra-AIPAC activities, I no longer put much stock in street activism. Whatever else one can say about the Israel lobbies, they are organized and effective; their practices are useful models from which to pick and choose effective elements, and I don't see AIPAC using street protest since the Jewish Veterans march in 1933. True, that started a major snowball rolling . . .

    Of course, the I lobbies have a lot of money -- in Der Judenstaat Theodor Herzl wrote of the "terrible power of the purse" that was key to Jewish triumph (not necessarily success, but coming out on top) since at least the 1880s.
    I'm a student of the authentic Machiavelli; he scorned the use of wealth to gain power and considered power gained by throwing wealth around to be ephemeral and oppressive. Machiavelli dedicated his life to -- "would trade his soul for " -- a republic in which the people of his beloved Florence freely participated in and supported their own government. People power, a dynamic uniting the support of the people committed to virtu with their leadership, was his crusade. A prince who failed to gain that support was doomed to failure.

    I don't think the Israel lobby has the authentic support of the American people; if they did, it would not be so essential that so much wealth be expended to lie to the American people so relentlessly; lying is not a quality of manly courage -- virtu.
    , @geokat62
    Very good questions, S2C and RobinG.

    I'm just this schmuck who is trying to make a difference by proposing an idea that might get people to call for real change.

    As for making this thing happen, I realize that it is not a trivial matter. That's why I suggested that it might make more sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead in organizing such an event.

    Alternatively, I am also willing to meet up with a few other fellow travellers to brainstorm how to turn this idea into reality.

    Given how corrupted the political process has become, I am convinced that real change will only come from the grassroots.
  119. @SolontoCroesus
    Do you have a think-tank, geokat62?

    Do you publish position papers, distribute them to congressional staffers, etc?

    do you have some organizing mechanisms, a 501 to collect donations, etc? How can someone get in touch with you to turn a cyber/internet campaign into real live 'boots on the ground'?

    sorry — I’m confused about which of you, Robin and/or geokat62, is organizing marches or lobbying Congress.

    Having participated in some Code Pink contra-AIPAC activities, I no longer put much stock in street activism. Whatever else one can say about the Israel lobbies, they are organized and effective; their practices are useful models from which to pick and choose effective elements, and I don’t see AIPAC using street protest since the Jewish Veterans march in 1933. True, that started a major snowball rolling . . .

    Of course, the I lobbies have a lot of money — in Der Judenstaat Theodor Herzl wrote of the “terrible power of the purse” that was key to Jewish triumph (not necessarily success, but coming out on top) since at least the 1880s.
    I’m a student of the authentic Machiavelli; he scorned the use of wealth to gain power and considered power gained by throwing wealth around to be ephemeral and oppressive. Machiavelli dedicated his life to — “would trade his soul for ” — a republic in which the people of his beloved Florence freely participated in and supported their own government. People power, a dynamic uniting the support of the people committed to virtu with their leadership, was his crusade. A prince who failed to gain that support was doomed to failure.

    I don’t think the Israel lobby has the authentic support of the American people; if they did, it would not be so essential that so much wealth be expended to lie to the American people so relentlessly; lying is not a quality of manly courage — virtu.

    Read More
  120. @SolontoCroesus
    Do you have a think-tank, geokat62?

    Do you publish position papers, distribute them to congressional staffers, etc?

    do you have some organizing mechanisms, a 501 to collect donations, etc? How can someone get in touch with you to turn a cyber/internet campaign into real live 'boots on the ground'?

    Very good questions, S2C and RobinG.

    I’m just this schmuck who is trying to make a difference by proposing an idea that might get people to call for real change.

    As for making this thing happen, I realize that it is not a trivial matter. That’s why I suggested that it might make more sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead in organizing such an event.

    Alternatively, I am also willing to meet up with a few other fellow travellers to brainstorm how to turn this idea into reality.

    Given how corrupted the political process has become, I am convinced that real change will only come from the grassroots.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    You're going to have to elevate yourself from 'schmuck'. Don't underestimate yourself. (Remember Erin Brockovich.)

    As for the Council for the National Interest, you asked, Phil didn't answer. (Have you asked him thru the CNI or other email/phone contact, or just here anonymously?) My guess is that Phil is already doing what he finds most suitable and effective for himself. He is educating people through his writing and speaking.

    Meeting up can be done electronically. Besides the internet, there are services like FreeConferenceCall.com which may also apply in Canada.
  121. (my New Year’s resolution was to stop obsessively commenting on Unz. Maybe next year.)

    Thinking about the whole Million Man March thing, and how it’s not something AIPAC does —

    This scene from Gandhi

    Phil Giraldi, Grant Smith – and so many others — have already taken leadership positions.

    It’s not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

    That’s what virtu is.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    It’s not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

    That’s what virtu is.
     
    Couldn't agree more. btw - the list is growing exponentially:

    geokat62
    SolontoCroesus
    Alexander
    RobinG

    Let me know if others would like for me to add their name to this list. And remember, if you act now, the first 13 get a coffee on me.
  122. @geokat62
    Very good questions, S2C and RobinG.

    I'm just this schmuck who is trying to make a difference by proposing an idea that might get people to call for real change.

    As for making this thing happen, I realize that it is not a trivial matter. That's why I suggested that it might make more sense for the Council for the National Interest to take the lead in organizing such an event.

    Alternatively, I am also willing to meet up with a few other fellow travellers to brainstorm how to turn this idea into reality.

    Given how corrupted the political process has become, I am convinced that real change will only come from the grassroots.

    You’re going to have to elevate yourself from ‘schmuck’. Don’t underestimate yourself. (Remember Erin Brockovich.)

    As for the Council for the National Interest, you asked, Phil didn’t answer. (Have you asked him thru the CNI or other email/phone contact, or just here anonymously?) My guess is that Phil is already doing what he finds most suitable and effective for himself. He is educating people through his writing and speaking.

    Meeting up can be done electronically. Besides the internet, there are services like FreeConferenceCall.com which may also apply in Canada.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Robin, Solon, geokat - Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac). And it would be nice to hear some conservative voices. The problem with the progressives on this issue is that they are completely into feel good, patting each other on the back for what nice people they are. Many of the so-called anti-occupation groups are also coopted by their own leaders who serve as gatekeepers to keep things under control and make sure that no one is getting feisty. What is needed is feisty, some serious confrontation with the Israel-Jewish-Christian Zionist groups accusing them directly of the treasonous activity that they are engaged in.
    , @geokat62

    Meeting up can be done electronically.
     
    This issue is so important to me, I'm willing to do my part to ensure its success.
  123. @RobinG
    You're going to have to elevate yourself from 'schmuck'. Don't underestimate yourself. (Remember Erin Brockovich.)

    As for the Council for the National Interest, you asked, Phil didn't answer. (Have you asked him thru the CNI or other email/phone contact, or just here anonymously?) My guess is that Phil is already doing what he finds most suitable and effective for himself. He is educating people through his writing and speaking.

    Meeting up can be done electronically. Besides the internet, there are services like FreeConferenceCall.com which may also apply in Canada.

    Robin, Solon, geokat – Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac). And it would be nice to hear some conservative voices. The problem with the progressives on this issue is that they are completely into feel good, patting each other on the back for what nice people they are. Many of the so-called anti-occupation groups are also coopted by their own leaders who serve as gatekeepers to keep things under control and make sure that no one is getting feisty. What is needed is feisty, some serious confrontation with the Israel-Jewish-Christian Zionist groups accusing them directly of the treasonous activity that they are engaged in.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac).
     
    Phil, glad to hear you think the idea has merit. My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their "remaking the ME" game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact. Whether it should coincide with the AIPAC conference or held during the dog days of summer, I'll leave it to the strategic planners to decide.

    My 2 cents.
    , @SolontoCroesus
    Thanks for the list -- and the coffee offer -- geokat62, and for the encouragement, Phil. "Feisty," absolutely, but no hip-hop, yelling or cheerleading, s'il vous plaît.

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

    there were some impressive speakers at The American Conservative Summit on Realism and Restraint


    I would suggest we start planning for next year, before Killary or anybody else gets to kill more people. Ed Royce is gearing up to impose more sanctions -- actually, an ultimatum -- on Iran. He & his ilk have to be named, shamed, and stopped.

    There should be books and their authors, and cut-out sessions where authors talk about their books.

    There should be a take-away: Marchers should not only be educated and energized, they should be armed with a program -- maybe the 'syllabus' for a Salon that they could host in their own living rooms back home. The energy needs to get pumped up in DC but spread out over the nation. Each March participant must become an educator in his/her own neighborhood -- Each One Teach One.
  124. @Philip Giraldi
    Robin, Solon, geokat - Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac). And it would be nice to hear some conservative voices. The problem with the progressives on this issue is that they are completely into feel good, patting each other on the back for what nice people they are. Many of the so-called anti-occupation groups are also coopted by their own leaders who serve as gatekeepers to keep things under control and make sure that no one is getting feisty. What is needed is feisty, some serious confrontation with the Israel-Jewish-Christian Zionist groups accusing them directly of the treasonous activity that they are engaged in.

    I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac).

    Phil, glad to hear you think the idea has merit. My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact. Whether it should coincide with the AIPAC conference or held during the dog days of summer, I’ll leave it to the strategic planners to decide.

    My 2 cents.

    Read More
  125. @RobinG
    You're going to have to elevate yourself from 'schmuck'. Don't underestimate yourself. (Remember Erin Brockovich.)

    As for the Council for the National Interest, you asked, Phil didn't answer. (Have you asked him thru the CNI or other email/phone contact, or just here anonymously?) My guess is that Phil is already doing what he finds most suitable and effective for himself. He is educating people through his writing and speaking.

    Meeting up can be done electronically. Besides the internet, there are services like FreeConferenceCall.com which may also apply in Canada.

    Meeting up can be done electronically.

    This issue is so important to me, I’m willing to do my part to ensure its success.

    Read More
  126. @SolontoCroesus
    (my New Year's resolution was to stop obsessively commenting on Unz. Maybe next year.)

    Thinking about the whole Million Man March thing, and how it's not something AIPAC does --

    This scene from Gandhi

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrHNig2aIjQ

    Phil Giraldi, Grant Smith - and so many others -- have already taken leadership positions.

    It's not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

    That's what virtu is.

    It’s not for us to ask them to take the blows if we are not willing to march with them.

    That’s what virtu is.

    Couldn’t agree more. btw – the list is growing exponentially:

    geokat62
    SolontoCroesus
    Alexander
    RobinG

    Let me know if others would like for me to add their name to this list. And remember, if you act now, the first 13 get a coffee on me.

    Read More
  127. @Philip Giraldi
    Robin, Solon, geokat - Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year (it should coincide if at all possible with aipac). And it would be nice to hear some conservative voices. The problem with the progressives on this issue is that they are completely into feel good, patting each other on the back for what nice people they are. Many of the so-called anti-occupation groups are also coopted by their own leaders who serve as gatekeepers to keep things under control and make sure that no one is getting feisty. What is needed is feisty, some serious confrontation with the Israel-Jewish-Christian Zionist groups accusing them directly of the treasonous activity that they are engaged in.

    Thanks for the list — and the coffee offer — geokat62, and for the encouragement, Phil. “Feisty,” absolutely, but no hip-hop, yelling or cheerleading, s’il vous plaît.

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

    there were some impressive speakers at The American Conservative Summit on Realism and Restraint

    I would suggest we start planning for next year, before Killary or anybody else gets to kill more people. Ed Royce is gearing up to impose more sanctions — actually, an ultimatum — on Iran. He & his ilk have to be named, shamed, and stopped.

    There should be books and their authors, and cut-out sessions where authors talk about their books.

    There should be a take-away: Marchers should not only be educated and energized, they should be armed with a program — maybe the ‘syllabus’ for a Salon that they could host in their own living rooms back home. The energy needs to get pumped up in DC but spread out over the nation. Each March participant must become an educator in his/her own neighborhood — Each One Teach One.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.
     
    I like most of your recommendations, S2C. I'm a little skeptical of the one year timeframe for two reasons that are related to ensuring the greatest turnout possible:

    1) sufficient time to organize such an event

    2) knowing that under a new administration things will deteriorate even further, such that more Americans will be convinced that something must be done

    As for a speakers list, here are my preliminary recommendations:

    Phillip Giraldi of CNI
    Alison Weir of CNI
    Congressman Paul Findley of CNI
    Profs. Mearsheimer & Walt
    Phillip Weiss of Mondoweiss
    Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com
    Sibel Edmonds of Boiling Frogs
    Ray McGovern, former CIA Analyst
    Robert Parry of Consortium News

    I''m sure others will kindly point out some key people I've left out.
    , @geokat62
    Further to the appropriate timing for this event, here's my response to RobinG on another thread:

    RobinG: If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

    geokat62: You’re right, of course, Robin. That’s why I’m suggesting 2020. I think the Lobby will do the heavy lifting for us during the intervening years. Just watch how enthusiastically Killary will implement the final chapters of their “remaking the ME” game plan. The evidence will be so overwhelming that even Avery and annamarina will have to admit the neocons/Israel firsters bear primary responsibility. Ironically, time and The Lobby are on our side.
     
  128. @SolontoCroesus
    Thanks for the list -- and the coffee offer -- geokat62, and for the encouragement, Phil. "Feisty," absolutely, but no hip-hop, yelling or cheerleading, s'il vous plaît.

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

    there were some impressive speakers at The American Conservative Summit on Realism and Restraint


    I would suggest we start planning for next year, before Killary or anybody else gets to kill more people. Ed Royce is gearing up to impose more sanctions -- actually, an ultimatum -- on Iran. He & his ilk have to be named, shamed, and stopped.

    There should be books and their authors, and cut-out sessions where authors talk about their books.

    There should be a take-away: Marchers should not only be educated and energized, they should be armed with a program -- maybe the 'syllabus' for a Salon that they could host in their own living rooms back home. The energy needs to get pumped up in DC but spread out over the nation. Each March participant must become an educator in his/her own neighborhood -- Each One Teach One.

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

    I like most of your recommendations, S2C. I’m a little skeptical of the one year timeframe for two reasons that are related to ensuring the greatest turnout possible:

    1) sufficient time to organize such an event

    2) knowing that under a new administration things will deteriorate even further, such that more Americans will be convinced that something must be done

    As for a speakers list, here are my preliminary recommendations:

    Phillip Giraldi of CNI
    Alison Weir of CNI
    Congressman Paul Findley of CNI
    Profs. Mearsheimer & Walt
    Phillip Weiss of Mondoweiss
    Justin Raimondo of Antiwar.com
    Sibel Edmonds of Boiling Frogs
    Ray McGovern, former CIA Analyst
    Robert Parry of Consortium News

    I”m sure others will kindly point out some key people I’ve left out.

    Read More
  129. @SolontoCroesus
    Thanks for the list -- and the coffee offer -- geokat62, and for the encouragement, Phil. "Feisty," absolutely, but no hip-hop, yelling or cheerleading, s'il vous plaît.

    Another list to start: people who should speak at this important event.

    there were some impressive speakers at The American Conservative Summit on Realism and Restraint


    I would suggest we start planning for next year, before Killary or anybody else gets to kill more people. Ed Royce is gearing up to impose more sanctions -- actually, an ultimatum -- on Iran. He & his ilk have to be named, shamed, and stopped.

    There should be books and their authors, and cut-out sessions where authors talk about their books.

    There should be a take-away: Marchers should not only be educated and energized, they should be armed with a program -- maybe the 'syllabus' for a Salon that they could host in their own living rooms back home. The energy needs to get pumped up in DC but spread out over the nation. Each March participant must become an educator in his/her own neighborhood -- Each One Teach One.

    Further to the appropriate timing for this event, here’s my response to RobinG on another thread:

    RobinG: If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

    geokat62: You’re right, of course, Robin. That’s why I’m suggesting 2020. I think the Lobby will do the heavy lifting for us during the intervening years. Just watch how enthusiastically Killary will implement the final chapters of their “remaking the ME” game plan. The evidence will be so overwhelming that even Avery and annamarina will have to admit the neocons/Israel firsters bear primary responsibility. Ironically, time and The Lobby are on our side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Geo, it may take until 2020 to prepare a million people, but part of that preparation is having preliminary events. I'm with S2C on this. Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency. Enlightening the general public needs outreach, diplomacy, psychology. It's a project. And while S2C is right that you can't win by street actions, they have their place.

    Put your thinking cap on. How about some sort of cyber-conference this fall?

    Brainstorming also means looking around to see what's going on, what you can build on. The Israel Lobby conference people - a good mix of conservatives and progressives (Phil has presented there) - have done tremendous work. This year, they moved up their day of seminars from April to March 18, to coincide with the AIPAC conference. This is the 3rd annual conference. (The first one was filmed and archived by CSPAN. The second, not. They probably got the word from Zion.)

    ISRAEL'S INFLUENCE: Good or Bad for America?
    http://www.israelsinfluence.org/
    Washington, DC - March 18, 2016 at the National Press Club
  130. @geokat62
    Further to the appropriate timing for this event, here's my response to RobinG on another thread:

    RobinG: If you want a million people in 2020, a lot more folks have to wake up to the Israel Lobby between now and then.

    geokat62: You’re right, of course, Robin. That’s why I’m suggesting 2020. I think the Lobby will do the heavy lifting for us during the intervening years. Just watch how enthusiastically Killary will implement the final chapters of their “remaking the ME” game plan. The evidence will be so overwhelming that even Avery and annamarina will have to admit the neocons/Israel firsters bear primary responsibility. Ironically, time and The Lobby are on our side.
     

    Geo, it may take until 2020 to prepare a million people, but part of that preparation is having preliminary events. I’m with S2C on this. Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency. Enlightening the general public needs outreach, diplomacy, psychology. It’s a project. And while S2C is right that you can’t win by street actions, they have their place.

    Put your thinking cap on. How about some sort of cyber-conference this fall?

    Brainstorming also means looking around to see what’s going on, what you can build on. The Israel Lobby conference people – a good mix of conservatives and progressives (Phil has presented there) – have done tremendous work. This year, they moved up their day of seminars from April to March 18, to coincide with the AIPAC conference. This is the 3rd annual conference. (The first one was filmed and archived by CSPAN. The second, not. They probably got the word from Zion.)

    ISRAEL’S INFLUENCE: Good or Bad for America?

    http://www.israelsinfluence.org/

    Washington, DC – March 18, 2016 at the National Press Club

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.
     
    Look, Robin, how do I put this delicately, I'm well aware of the urgency... that's why I come here and try to convince others that something must be done. I don't believe I suggested anywhere that this event such preclude other preliminary events. By all means, these events should continue to take place. My suggestion is that the optimal timing for a million person march on DC would be in 2020, and I still stand by that. That's it. And just because I reside north of the border doesn't mean that I value human life any less than those that reside south of the 49th parallel.

    If we're going to have any success in organizing this event, we're going to have to be a little more respectful to one another... wouldn't you agree?
  131. @RobinG
    Geo, it may take until 2020 to prepare a million people, but part of that preparation is having preliminary events. I'm with S2C on this. Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency. Enlightening the general public needs outreach, diplomacy, psychology. It's a project. And while S2C is right that you can't win by street actions, they have their place.

    Put your thinking cap on. How about some sort of cyber-conference this fall?

    Brainstorming also means looking around to see what's going on, what you can build on. The Israel Lobby conference people - a good mix of conservatives and progressives (Phil has presented there) - have done tremendous work. This year, they moved up their day of seminars from April to March 18, to coincide with the AIPAC conference. This is the 3rd annual conference. (The first one was filmed and archived by CSPAN. The second, not. They probably got the word from Zion.)

    ISRAEL'S INFLUENCE: Good or Bad for America?
    http://www.israelsinfluence.org/
    Washington, DC - March 18, 2016 at the National Press Club

    Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.

    Look, Robin, how do I put this delicately, I’m well aware of the urgency… that’s why I come here and try to convince others that something must be done. I don’t believe I suggested anywhere that this event such preclude other preliminary events. By all means, these events should continue to take place. My suggestion is that the optimal timing for a million person march on DC would be in 2020, and I still stand by that. That’s it. And just because I reside north of the border doesn’t mean that I value human life any less than those that reside south of the 49th parallel.

    If we’re going to have any success in organizing this event, we’re going to have to be a little more respectful to one another… wouldn’t you agree?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Hi Geo,

    I don't think RobinG was being disrespectful.....just honest.

    2020 may be the earliest date at which a massive, well coordinated "march" on Washington, could be organized to have a meaningful impact.... and there is no reason ( given that doing something as opposed to nothing is always a better course) not to strive for it.

    But by 2020, the Israel/Palestine conflict, which many have argued, is the epicenter of all the conflicts in the middle east, may have resolved itself in the complete dissolution of Palestine.

    As a matter of fact, the "ship" of the internationally mandated two state solution, may have already sailed "off the cliff" on the heels of the most recent Neocon" stymying efforts" at the last U.N.Security Council vote on Palestinian statehood in 2012.

    Palestine was able to achieve " non-member observer status" with an overwhelming majority vote of 138 to 9 in the U.N.General Assembly, but unable to cross over the Rubicon into statehood, due to the "mysterious" 9-8 vote (against) in the U.N.S.C.

    It will be fascinating to see, if the vote comes up again in the Security Council before President Obama has completed his term, whether the US will "abstain" from the veto, and allow true Palestinian "statehood" to enter into existence.

    This would have the most profound impact on" Greater" Israels illegal settlement enterprise, since much of it has underpinned its expansion , and the argument for it, on the grounds that there is "no" Palestine ....and never will be.

    Whatever the outcome, it may well be that the United States, in allowing its stewardship to have been commandeered by the Neocons, will collapse from " sheer" insolvency, having expended too much money that it doesn't have...fighting wars of aggression , on behalf of Israel , against countries that never attacked us.

    Protecting Israel from" extermination", may be grounds for many in the US to take an aggressive posture towards Israels "enemies". Protecting Israels desire to "exterminate" Palestine, on the other hand, should never be (and never have become) one of them.

    , @RobinG
    Geo, I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your perspective for the next 4 years, but this struck me as a little too cynical: "My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact." Not your usual altruism that I'm used to.

    "Keeping the powder dry" doesn't sound like active engagement. Giving Killery time may mean killing another few hundred thousand or more. As far as maximum impact, that's debatable on 2 scores.
    First, you're assuming Americans might care if some foreign countries are destroyed. Some will care, but since most don't now unless US boys are killed, and since the wars are increasingly fought by mercenaries, proxies and drones, I don't foresee any general outrage.
    Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

    So, I apologize for my childish un-PC-ness of calling you Canadian. You could be in downtown Damascus and suggest giving the K-Woman time to make things worse, and I would have been just as disappointed.

    Phil Giraldi wrote. "Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year..."
     
    The obvious implication is that March of 2017 is not too soon. (The less obvious implication is that it is "worth trying" as part of an overall strategy.)

    Now that I've probably made things worse, maybe Alexander will smooth things over by reminding us of his low opinion of Israeli character. ;) I think it's great you want to do this, Geo, and I'll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people. Even among veteran pro-Palestinian campaigners, there is often a surprising lack of knowledge of the Israel Lobby.
    http://al-awda.org/
    also sponsored by ANSWER
    http://www.answercoalition.org/national_march_on_washington_d_c_to_support_palestine
    National March on Washington D.C. to Support Palestine
    March 20, 2015 at 12pm - 5pm
  132. @geokat62

    Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.
     
    Look, Robin, how do I put this delicately, I'm well aware of the urgency... that's why I come here and try to convince others that something must be done. I don't believe I suggested anywhere that this event such preclude other preliminary events. By all means, these events should continue to take place. My suggestion is that the optimal timing for a million person march on DC would be in 2020, and I still stand by that. That's it. And just because I reside north of the border doesn't mean that I value human life any less than those that reside south of the 49th parallel.

    If we're going to have any success in organizing this event, we're going to have to be a little more respectful to one another... wouldn't you agree?

    Hi Geo,

    I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.

    2020 may be the earliest date at which a massive, well coordinated “march” on Washington, could be organized to have a meaningful impact…. and there is no reason ( given that doing something as opposed to nothing is always a better course) not to strive for it.

    But by 2020, the Israel/Palestine conflict, which many have argued, is the epicenter of all the conflicts in the middle east, may have resolved itself in the complete dissolution of Palestine.

    As a matter of fact, the “ship” of the internationally mandated two state solution, may have already sailed “off the cliff” on the heels of the most recent Neocon” stymying efforts” at the last U.N.Security Council vote on Palestinian statehood in 2012.

    Palestine was able to achieve ” non-member observer status” with an overwhelming majority vote of 138 to 9 in the U.N.General Assembly, but unable to cross over the Rubicon into statehood, due to the “mysterious” 9-8 vote (against) in the U.N.S.C.

    It will be fascinating to see, if the vote comes up again in the Security Council before President Obama has completed his term, whether the US will “abstain” from the veto, and allow true Palestinian “statehood” to enter into existence.

    This would have the most profound impact on” Greater” Israels illegal settlement enterprise, since much of it has underpinned its expansion , and the argument for it, on the grounds that there is “no” Palestine ….and never will be.

    Whatever the outcome, it may well be that the United States, in allowing its stewardship to have been commandeered by the Neocons, will collapse from ” sheer” insolvency, having expended too much money that it doesn’t have…fighting wars of aggression , on behalf of Israel , against countries that never attacked us.

    Protecting Israel from” extermination”, may be grounds for many in the US to take an aggressive posture towards Israels “enemies”. Protecting Israels desire to “exterminate” Palestine, on the other hand, should never be (and never have become) one of them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.
     
    So just so we're clear, if you are saying you're in agreement with Robin that it makes more sense to schedule the million person march for 2017, while I think it will impact the size of the turnout, I'm ok with that. I don't have a problem with people suggesting that it should be held sooner than waiting another 4 years, given the urgency of people dying. What I took issue with and still do is saying the following: "Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency."

    See the difference?
  133. @alexander
    Hi Geo,

    I don't think RobinG was being disrespectful.....just honest.

    2020 may be the earliest date at which a massive, well coordinated "march" on Washington, could be organized to have a meaningful impact.... and there is no reason ( given that doing something as opposed to nothing is always a better course) not to strive for it.

    But by 2020, the Israel/Palestine conflict, which many have argued, is the epicenter of all the conflicts in the middle east, may have resolved itself in the complete dissolution of Palestine.

    As a matter of fact, the "ship" of the internationally mandated two state solution, may have already sailed "off the cliff" on the heels of the most recent Neocon" stymying efforts" at the last U.N.Security Council vote on Palestinian statehood in 2012.

    Palestine was able to achieve " non-member observer status" with an overwhelming majority vote of 138 to 9 in the U.N.General Assembly, but unable to cross over the Rubicon into statehood, due to the "mysterious" 9-8 vote (against) in the U.N.S.C.

    It will be fascinating to see, if the vote comes up again in the Security Council before President Obama has completed his term, whether the US will "abstain" from the veto, and allow true Palestinian "statehood" to enter into existence.

    This would have the most profound impact on" Greater" Israels illegal settlement enterprise, since much of it has underpinned its expansion , and the argument for it, on the grounds that there is "no" Palestine ....and never will be.

    Whatever the outcome, it may well be that the United States, in allowing its stewardship to have been commandeered by the Neocons, will collapse from " sheer" insolvency, having expended too much money that it doesn't have...fighting wars of aggression , on behalf of Israel , against countries that never attacked us.

    Protecting Israel from" extermination", may be grounds for many in the US to take an aggressive posture towards Israels "enemies". Protecting Israels desire to "exterminate" Palestine, on the other hand, should never be (and never have become) one of them.

    I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.

    So just so we’re clear, if you are saying you’re in agreement with Robin that it makes more sense to schedule the million person march for 2017, while I think it will impact the size of the turnout, I’m ok with that. I don’t have a problem with people suggesting that it should be held sooner than waiting another 4 years, given the urgency of people dying. What I took issue with and still do is saying the following: “Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.”

    See the difference?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    I see the difference, Geo.

    Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

    I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington...tomorrow.....it will still not have the impact that our President can have....through the powers we have granted him....in acting in a profound way to alter the outcome of this conflict.

    I hate to say it, but the President of the United States carries the torch of human justice for all Americans right now.....what he does with it, if anything at all, remains to be seen.
    , @alexander
    Geo,

    Another idea that might have more impact, faster,is to target the next U.N.S.C .session on Israel/Palestine and put together an online petition....signed by 30 million people (.or more)..and send it to the White House.....that might give a little impetus to the POTUS.....to carry the day on Palestinian statehood......I don't know ?

    I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ? I think they have thought about that more than you have given them credit for.

    Would " total war" break out in the West Bank.?...would Gaza undergo another devastating "blitzkrieg"....one that doesn't"stop"this time , until Israel runs out of ordnance ?

    Need I remind you that King Bibi's Israel is, if nothing else, a true "killing machine "....with its finger on the trigger just ready to go.

    The United States "desire" for a negotiated solution" is not" just" in deference to the will of the Israel Lobby (that doesn't want one), but an understanding that absence "a peace deal " everyone can live with, the amount of killing likely to occur, might reach unconscionable proportions,very fast...like two million dead (mostly Palestinians)inside of three weeks....maybe more.

    This level of bloodletting...will overwhelm the" Arab street" with profound indignation, anger and a near unquenchable desire for vengeance....leading to massive upheavals in most of the world.

    Things, as bad as they are, could get much, much worse... very rapidly.

    So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

    Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

    I am sure he is all ears.

  134. @geokat62

    I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.
     
    So just so we're clear, if you are saying you're in agreement with Robin that it makes more sense to schedule the million person march for 2017, while I think it will impact the size of the turnout, I'm ok with that. I don't have a problem with people suggesting that it should be held sooner than waiting another 4 years, given the urgency of people dying. What I took issue with and still do is saying the following: "Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency."

    See the difference?

    I see the difference, Geo.

    Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

    I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington…tomorrow…..it will still not have the impact that our President can have….through the powers we have granted him….in acting in a profound way to alter the outcome of this conflict.

    I hate to say it, but the President of the United States carries the torch of human justice for all Americans right now…..what he does with it, if anything at all, remains to be seen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.
     
    I guess Robin is the only one who can tell us what she really meant by it.

    As far as your comment:

    I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington…tomorrow…..it will still not have the impact that our President can have
     
    While a march of significant numbers will not have an immediate effect, I believe it would make a significant statement that the game can no longer be played the same way. It will demonstrate that a large segment of the American public are no longer willing to abide by the special relationship and, with the 10 demands we'll be making, it will provide policy makers a clear indication of the reforms that are required to steer the ship back in the right direction. But for all this to happen, it is imperative that a significant number of people attend the march. That's why I'm advocating 2020, but if there is a consensus that 2017 is preferable, I'll still show up.
  135. @alexander
    I see the difference, Geo.

    Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

    I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington...tomorrow.....it will still not have the impact that our President can have....through the powers we have granted him....in acting in a profound way to alter the outcome of this conflict.

    I hate to say it, but the President of the United States carries the torch of human justice for all Americans right now.....what he does with it, if anything at all, remains to be seen.

    Again she sees the urgency. I think that is all she meant by it.

    I guess Robin is the only one who can tell us what she really meant by it.

    As far as your comment:

    I think if there was a 300 million man march on Washington…tomorrow…..it will still not have the impact that our President can have

    While a march of significant numbers will not have an immediate effect, I believe it would make a significant statement that the game can no longer be played the same way. It will demonstrate that a large segment of the American public are no longer willing to abide by the special relationship and, with the 10 demands we’ll be making, it will provide policy makers a clear indication of the reforms that are required to steer the ship back in the right direction. But for all this to happen, it is imperative that a significant number of people attend the march. That’s why I’m advocating 2020, but if there is a consensus that 2017 is preferable, I’ll still show up.

    Read More
  136. @geokat62

    I don’t think RobinG was being disrespectful…..just honest.
     
    So just so we're clear, if you are saying you're in agreement with Robin that it makes more sense to schedule the million person march for 2017, while I think it will impact the size of the turnout, I'm ok with that. I don't have a problem with people suggesting that it should be held sooner than waiting another 4 years, given the urgency of people dying. What I took issue with and still do is saying the following: "Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency."

    See the difference?

    Geo,

    Another idea that might have more impact, faster,is to target the next U.N.S.C .session on Israel/Palestine and put together an online petition….signed by 30 million people (.or more)..and send it to the White House…..that might give a little impetus to the POTUS…..to carry the day on Palestinian statehood……I don’t know ?

    I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ? I think they have thought about that more than you have given them credit for.

    Would ” total war” break out in the West Bank.?…would Gaza undergo another devastating “blitzkrieg”….one that doesn’t”stop”this time , until Israel runs out of ordnance ?

    Need I remind you that King Bibi’s Israel is, if nothing else, a true “killing machine “….with its finger on the trigger just ready to go.

    The United States “desire” for a negotiated solution” is not” just” in deference to the will of the Israel Lobby (that doesn’t want one), but an understanding that absence “a peace deal ” everyone can live with, the amount of killing likely to occur, might reach unconscionable proportions,very fast…like two million dead (mostly Palestinians)inside of three weeks….maybe more.

    This level of bloodletting…will overwhelm the” Arab street” with profound indignation, anger and a near unquenchable desire for vengeance….leading to massive upheavals in most of the world.

    Things, as bad as they are, could get much, much worse… very rapidly.

    So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

    Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

    I am sure he is all ears.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ?...

    Would ” total war” break out in the West Bank.?
     
    Let's be clear, under present circumstances - i.e., the tight stranglehold the Lobby has on Congress and WH, the President and the State Department can't wipe their bottoms without the Lobby's permission.

    Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?
     
    Not sure about November, but here's how the process of breaking this stranglehold has to unfold:

    1. The American people must be convinced that the special relationship is detrimental to their interests (and so the great significance of the march).

    2. The people must relentlessly demand from their representatives that all 10 of these demands must be met, nothing less.

    3. With the support of the people behind them, US representatives must make clear to the Israelis that if they do not reach a mutually agreeable resolution to the conflict within a fixed timeframe, all support - financial, military, diplomatic - will be terminated.

    So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.
     
    It does indeed, Alexander. And, for the sake of peace, the Israelis must be forced to pay one.
  137. @alexander
    Geo,

    Another idea that might have more impact, faster,is to target the next U.N.S.C .session on Israel/Palestine and put together an online petition....signed by 30 million people (.or more)..and send it to the White House.....that might give a little impetus to the POTUS.....to carry the day on Palestinian statehood......I don't know ?

    I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ? I think they have thought about that more than you have given them credit for.

    Would " total war" break out in the West Bank.?...would Gaza undergo another devastating "blitzkrieg"....one that doesn't"stop"this time , until Israel runs out of ordnance ?

    Need I remind you that King Bibi's Israel is, if nothing else, a true "killing machine "....with its finger on the trigger just ready to go.

    The United States "desire" for a negotiated solution" is not" just" in deference to the will of the Israel Lobby (that doesn't want one), but an understanding that absence "a peace deal " everyone can live with, the amount of killing likely to occur, might reach unconscionable proportions,very fast...like two million dead (mostly Palestinians)inside of three weeks....maybe more.

    This level of bloodletting...will overwhelm the" Arab street" with profound indignation, anger and a near unquenchable desire for vengeance....leading to massive upheavals in most of the world.

    Things, as bad as they are, could get much, much worse... very rapidly.

    So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

    Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

    I am sure he is all ears.

    I think the fear the President, as well as the State Department might have, is what would happen the day after Palestine is recognized as a state ?…

    Would ” total war” break out in the West Bank.?

    Let’s be clear, under present circumstances – i.e., the tight stranglehold the Lobby has on Congress and WH, the President and the State Department can’t wipe their bottoms without the Lobby’s permission.

    Got any ideas for the President between now and November ?

    Not sure about November, but here’s how the process of breaking this stranglehold has to unfold:

    1. The American people must be convinced that the special relationship is detrimental to their interests (and so the great significance of the march).

    2. The people must relentlessly demand from their representatives that all 10 of these demands must be met, nothing less.

    3. With the support of the people behind them, US representatives must make clear to the Israelis that if they do not reach a mutually agreeable resolution to the conflict within a fixed timeframe, all support – financial, military, diplomatic – will be terminated.

    So it seems, Geo, any solution has its price.

    It does indeed, Alexander. And, for the sake of peace, the Israelis must be forced to pay one.

    Read More
  138. @geokat62

    Waiting 4 years may be fine for you, somewhere in Canada, but people are dying so there is urgency.
     
    Look, Robin, how do I put this delicately, I'm well aware of the urgency... that's why I come here and try to convince others that something must be done. I don't believe I suggested anywhere that this event such preclude other preliminary events. By all means, these events should continue to take place. My suggestion is that the optimal timing for a million person march on DC would be in 2020, and I still stand by that. That's it. And just because I reside north of the border doesn't mean that I value human life any less than those that reside south of the 49th parallel.

    If we're going to have any success in organizing this event, we're going to have to be a little more respectful to one another... wouldn't you agree?

    Geo, I’m sorry if I’ve misunderstood your perspective for the next 4 years, but this struck me as a little too cynical: “My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact.” Not your usual altruism that I’m used to.

    “Keeping the powder dry” doesn’t sound like active engagement. Giving Killery time may mean killing another few hundred thousand or more. As far as maximum impact, that’s debatable on 2 scores.
    First, you’re assuming Americans might care if some foreign countries are destroyed. Some will care, but since most don’t now unless US boys are killed, and since the wars are increasingly fought by mercenaries, proxies and drones, I don’t foresee any general outrage.
    Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

    So, I apologize for my childish un-PC-ness of calling you Canadian. You could be in downtown Damascus and suggest giving the K-Woman time to make things worse, and I would have been just as disappointed.

    Phil Giraldi wrote. “Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year…”

    The obvious implication is that March of 2017 is not too soon. (The less obvious implication is that it is “worth trying” as part of an overall strategy.)

    Now that I’ve probably made things worse, maybe Alexander will smooth things over by reminding us of his low opinion of Israeli character. ;) I think it’s great you want to do this, Geo, and I’ll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people. Even among veteran pro-Palestinian campaigners, there is often a surprising lack of knowledge of the Israel Lobby.

    http://al-awda.org/

    also sponsored by ANSWER

    http://www.answercoalition.org/national_march_on_washington_d_c_to_support_palestine

    National March on Washington D.C. to Support Palestine
    March 20, 2015 at 12pm – 5pm

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Whatever statements I have made which would evince you of my "low" opinion of Israeli "character", I wish I could argue it the other way. RobinG.

    But perhaps its finding out what facts are what...that determine how high an opinion one should have of anybody.

    If one is taught all throughout school that the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Jews from Nazi Germany constitutes an evil, heinous crime against humanity...which I believe it is.

    Then what is one to make of the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the state of Israel at the time of its inception ?

    What is one to make of it ?

    If one is taught all throughout school that the "land grabbing" or "Lebensraum-ing" of territory by the Nazis is also an "evil" crime against humanity, outlawed by civilization.

    What is one to make of the "land grabbing " or "lebensraum-ing" of the Palestinian territories by the state of Israel and its settlement enterprise ?

    What is one to make of that ?

    It seems to me that two wrongs can never make a right....so if it was wrong to have happened to the Jews...and it was...how can it be "right " to have happened (and be happening) to the Palestinians?

    Pointing out this profound moral contradiction should be essential to establishing behavioral norms that are acceptable to all civilization, not exclusive to some, and irrelevant to others.

    If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself....why is that my fault ?

    I did not" create "the moral standards by which states and their behavior should be judged.

    The idea of applying them "selectively" undermines the notion of having any moral standards at all. Doesn't it ?
  139. “Keeping the powder dry” doesn’t sound like active engagement.

    A big march and active engagement don’t have to be mutually exclusive. As I’ve indicated before, the regularly scheduled anti-Lobby activities should continue per usual. My only point is if there a desire to organize a mass protest, the likelihood of pulling it off for next year is relatively small, IMHO.

    Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

    While it’s true that the big marches in 2003 did not prevent the invasion of Iraq, they made a big statement that despite the optics of the “Coalition of the Willing” the general public of these countries did not support the destruction of Iraq.

    The same thing holds true for our “Pink Recolution”… it may not defeat the Lobby the next day but by raising awareness of the general public, the night flower will be forced to come into the light.

    I think it’s great you want to do this, Geo, and I’ll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people.

    I appreciate your support Robin and I will take your advice and follow-up with the groups you provided me.

    And, finally, as I indicated to Alexander, I believe breaking the Lobby’s stranglehold on US foreign policy hinges on 3 things:

    1. Raising the awareness of the American people about the role of the Lobby (hence the importance of both regular and a large engagement).

    2. Demanding from representatives that all 10 of the demands must be met, nothing less.

    3. Making it clear to the Israelis that if they do not reach a mutually agreeable deal within a specified time period, all support – military, financial, diplomatic – will be terminated.

    So the game plan is rather straight forward.. that’s the easy part. The hard part is finding the right group of people to implement it.

    Read More
  140. Great. Here’s a thought on how you could, temporarily at least, preserve your anonymity. If you make a website, people can use the ‘contact’ function. From there, you can decide if you want to make a private email group, which would facilitate discussion.

    There are free website options: many use WordPress. I’ve never done it. Perhaps S2C or someone else here could give you some tech advice, if you need it. (We don’t know your experience, your age, your financial situation – but it’s better than mine if you can travel all the way to DC for a coffee!!!

    Now explain please, why Pink Revolution? It’s a revolution all right, but pink has numerous dubious associations. Perhaps a name should have maximum SEO (search engine optimization) for effective marketing.

    “A Declaration of Independence from Israel,” is the title of your list of demands….

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62
    I like your idea of a private email group, but I would need a little assistance with how to setup my own website... so any tech advice is welcome.

    Now explain please, why Pink Revolution?
     
    I came up with that name in a moment of flippancy, when I responded to a comment in another thread:

    Two words: people power.

    Remember the neocons with their colour revolutions? Well, the US is overdue for its own colour revolution. As a tribute to the neocon’s Trotskyist roots, we should dub it the “pink revolution.”

    In that spirit, I invite you to join the Pink Revolution scheduled for the summer of 2020 in DC, A Declaration of Independence from Israel.
     
    So for marketing purposes, I agree that it should be dropped.
  141. @RobinG
    Great. Here's a thought on how you could, temporarily at least, preserve your anonymity. If you make a website, people can use the 'contact' function. From there, you can decide if you want to make a private email group, which would facilitate discussion.

    There are free website options: many use Wordpress. I've never done it. Perhaps S2C or someone else here could give you some tech advice, if you need it. (We don't know your experience, your age, your financial situation - but it's better than mine if you can travel all the way to DC for a coffee!!!

    Now explain please, why Pink Revolution? It's a revolution all right, but pink has numerous dubious associations. Perhaps a name should have maximum SEO (search engine optimization) for effective marketing.

    “A Declaration of Independence from Israel,” is the title of your list of demands....

    I like your idea of a private email group, but I would need a little assistance with how to setup my own website… so any tech advice is welcome.

    Now explain please, why Pink Revolution?

    I came up with that name in a moment of flippancy, when I responded to a comment in another thread:

    Two words: people power.

    Remember the neocons with their colour revolutions? Well, the US is overdue for its own colour revolution. As a tribute to the neocon’s Trotskyist roots, we should dub it the “pink revolution.”

    In that spirit, I invite you to join the Pink Revolution scheduled for the summer of 2020 in DC, A Declaration of Independence from Israel.

    So for marketing purposes, I agree that it should be dropped.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Geo,

    Take a look at the comment(#145) I sent to RobinG.

    The testimony given by David Sheen, that I refer to, might well be worth your time, too.

    The "link" might also supply you with an additional " list" of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your "million man march" on D.C.

    Check it out.
  142. @RobinG
    Geo, I'm sorry if I've misunderstood your perspective for the next 4 years, but this struck me as a little too cynical: "My recommendation would be to keep the powder dry for a few more years to allow Killery enough time to put the finishing touches to their “remaking the ME” game plan, so having a march sometime in 2020 would have maximum impact." Not your usual altruism that I'm used to.

    "Keeping the powder dry" doesn't sound like active engagement. Giving Killery time may mean killing another few hundred thousand or more. As far as maximum impact, that's debatable on 2 scores.
    First, you're assuming Americans might care if some foreign countries are destroyed. Some will care, but since most don't now unless US boys are killed, and since the wars are increasingly fought by mercenaries, proxies and drones, I don't foresee any general outrage.
    Second, you put too much faith in a big march. In 2003 millions marched (more in Europe than here, of course) but Bush still invaded Iraq.

    So, I apologize for my childish un-PC-ness of calling you Canadian. You could be in downtown Damascus and suggest giving the K-Woman time to make things worse, and I would have been just as disappointed.

    Phil Giraldi wrote. "Actually I think something like a million (person) march on Washington to protest against the Israel relationship is a good idea and probably worth trying but I fear we are too close to the aipac conference to be able to organize it and pull it off this year..."
     
    The obvious implication is that March of 2017 is not too soon. (The less obvious implication is that it is "worth trying" as part of an overall strategy.)

    Now that I've probably made things worse, maybe Alexander will smooth things over by reminding us of his low opinion of Israeli character. ;) I think it's great you want to do this, Geo, and I'll help you in any way I can. BTW, as I said on another thread, there will be an AIPAC protest march this year. You should contact these people. Even among veteran pro-Palestinian campaigners, there is often a surprising lack of knowledge of the Israel Lobby.
    http://al-awda.org/
    also sponsored by ANSWER
    http://www.answercoalition.org/national_march_on_washington_d_c_to_support_palestine
    National March on Washington D.C. to Support Palestine
    March 20, 2015 at 12pm - 5pm

    Whatever statements I have made which would evince you of my “low” opinion of Israeli “character”, I wish I could argue it the other way. RobinG.

    But perhaps its finding out what facts are what…that determine how high an opinion one should have of anybody.

    If one is taught all throughout school that the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Jews from Nazi Germany constitutes an evil, heinous crime against humanity…which I believe it is.

    Then what is one to make of the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the state of Israel at the time of its inception ?

    What is one to make of it ?

    If one is taught all throughout school that the “land grabbing” or “Lebensraum-ing” of territory by the Nazis is also an “evil” crime against humanity, outlawed by civilization.

    What is one to make of the “land grabbing ” or “lebensraum-ing” of the Palestinian territories by the state of Israel and its settlement enterprise ?

    What is one to make of that ?

    It seems to me that two wrongs can never make a right….so if it was wrong to have happened to the Jews…and it was…how can it be “right ” to have happened (and be happening) to the Palestinians?

    Pointing out this profound moral contradiction should be essential to establishing behavioral norms that are acceptable to all civilization, not exclusive to some, and irrelevant to others.

    If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself….why is that my fault ?

    I did not” create “the moral standards by which states and their behavior should be judged.

    The idea of applying them “selectively” undermines the notion of having any moral standards at all. Doesn’t it ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG

    If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself….why is that my fault ?
     
    So who said it was your fault? I was referring to your premise that the Israelis would massacre a few million Palestinians to prevent any challenge to their Jewish majority state. I'd say that was a pretty strong indictment of Israeli character.
  143. @alexander
    Whatever statements I have made which would evince you of my "low" opinion of Israeli "character", I wish I could argue it the other way. RobinG.

    But perhaps its finding out what facts are what...that determine how high an opinion one should have of anybody.

    If one is taught all throughout school that the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Jews from Nazi Germany constitutes an evil, heinous crime against humanity...which I believe it is.

    Then what is one to make of the ethnic cleansing and expulsion of Palestinians from the state of Israel at the time of its inception ?

    What is one to make of it ?

    If one is taught all throughout school that the "land grabbing" or "Lebensraum-ing" of territory by the Nazis is also an "evil" crime against humanity, outlawed by civilization.

    What is one to make of the "land grabbing " or "lebensraum-ing" of the Palestinian territories by the state of Israel and its settlement enterprise ?

    What is one to make of that ?

    It seems to me that two wrongs can never make a right....so if it was wrong to have happened to the Jews...and it was...how can it be "right " to have happened (and be happening) to the Palestinians?

    Pointing out this profound moral contradiction should be essential to establishing behavioral norms that are acceptable to all civilization, not exclusive to some, and irrelevant to others.

    If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself....why is that my fault ?

    I did not" create "the moral standards by which states and their behavior should be judged.

    The idea of applying them "selectively" undermines the notion of having any moral standards at all. Doesn't it ?

    If questioning these contradictions impugns the high moral character the State of Israel claims for itself….why is that my fault ?

    So who said it was your fault? I was referring to your premise that the Israelis would massacre a few million Palestinians to prevent any challenge to their Jewish majority state. I’d say that was a pretty strong indictment of Israeli character.

    Read More
  144. If you haven’t had a chance…..take a look at the testimony given by “David Sheen, Russell Tribunal 2014″ on You tube , It seems to depict, pretty fairly, what is going on inside Israeli society.
    I had to watch it several times….just to try and absorb the level of ” hate”,” terroristic extremism” and” fascistic supremacism” emanating from within the very “centers” of Israels current political and religious power structures.

    It seem shocking to me, given the integrity of Mr Sheens’ testimony, and what the United States is “supposed to” stand for, that “any” American representative in Congress would stand for Mr Netanyahu ( in his most recent oratory for war) even once, let alone thirty five times….absolutely shocking!

    There is something terribly , terribly wrong.

    “David Sheen, Russell Tribunal 2014″ Youtube.

    Check it out ,RobinG ,and let me know what you think.

    Read More
  145. @geokat62
    I like your idea of a private email group, but I would need a little assistance with how to setup my own website... so any tech advice is welcome.

    Now explain please, why Pink Revolution?
     
    I came up with that name in a moment of flippancy, when I responded to a comment in another thread:

    Two words: people power.

    Remember the neocons with their colour revolutions? Well, the US is overdue for its own colour revolution. As a tribute to the neocon’s Trotskyist roots, we should dub it the “pink revolution.”

    In that spirit, I invite you to join the Pink Revolution scheduled for the summer of 2020 in DC, A Declaration of Independence from Israel.
     
    So for marketing purposes, I agree that it should be dropped.

    Geo,

    Take a look at the comment(#145) I sent to RobinG.

    The testimony given by David Sheen, that I refer to, might well be worth your time, too.

    The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.

    Check it out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @geokat62

    The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.
     
    Thanks for sharing, Alexander. I wasn't aware of the Russell Tribunal 2014.

    Two comments about the video:

    1. I liked the reaction of one of the members of the panel, Ken Loach, I believe, who @29:30 says:

    I think we're all deeply shocked by what you showed us. And I just want to say in passing, we don't see this side of Israel in our reporting, we don't see it on our televisions. And it is very interesting that this is really kept quite private within Israel.
     
    2. As for potential speakers, I definitely would invite Roger Waters to the mass rally. He seems like a man with tremendous compassion, has an excellent command of the English language, and, as a member of a popular rock band (Pink Floyd), he would be a popular draw.
  146. @alexander
    Geo,

    Take a look at the comment(#145) I sent to RobinG.

    The testimony given by David Sheen, that I refer to, might well be worth your time, too.

    The "link" might also supply you with an additional " list" of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your "million man march" on D.C.

    Check it out.

    The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.

    Thanks for sharing, Alexander. I wasn’t aware of the Russell Tribunal 2014.

    Two comments about the video:

    1. I liked the reaction of one of the members of the panel, Ken Loach, I believe, who @29:30 says:

    I think we’re all deeply shocked by what you showed us. And I just want to say in passing, we don’t see this side of Israel in our reporting, we don’t see it on our televisions. And it is very interesting that this is really kept quite private within Israel.

    2. As for potential speakers, I definitely would invite Roger Waters to the mass rally. He seems like a man with tremendous compassion, has an excellent command of the English language, and, as a member of a popular rock band (Pink Floyd), he would be a popular draw.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Glad you checked out the link, Geo.


    I felt just the same as Ken Loach, after hearing Davids testimony.

    As I told RobinG, I had to listen to it, several times over, to actually try to absorb what I was hearing.

    I do think Roger Waters would be an excellent addition to your roster.

    I wonder how aware our President is, of these recent manifestations of (what could only be described as) a "Genocidal" Judeo-Fascist Supremacism creeping over and into what was once, perhaps, a more tolerant democratic Israel in search of a just resolution to its conflicts ?

    I wonder how" aware" our Congress and our State Department is also ?

    Don't you?

    .

  147. @geokat62

    The “link” might also supply you with an additional ” list” of persons who would likely be willing to speak at your “million man march” on D.C.
     
    Thanks for sharing, Alexander. I wasn't aware of the Russell Tribunal 2014.

    Two comments about the video:

    1. I liked the reaction of one of the members of the panel, Ken Loach, I believe, who @29:30 says:

    I think we're all deeply shocked by what you showed us. And I just want to say in passing, we don't see this side of Israel in our reporting, we don't see it on our televisions. And it is very interesting that this is really kept quite private within Israel.
     
    2. As for potential speakers, I definitely would invite Roger Waters to the mass rally. He seems like a man with tremendous compassion, has an excellent command of the English language, and, as a member of a popular rock band (Pink Floyd), he would be a popular draw.

    Glad you checked out the link, Geo.

    I felt just the same as Ken Loach, after hearing Davids testimony.

    As I told RobinG, I had to listen to it, several times over, to actually try to absorb what I was hearing.

    I do think Roger Waters would be an excellent addition to your roster.

    I wonder how aware our President is, of these recent manifestations of (what could only be described as) a “Genocidal” Judeo-Fascist Supremacism creeping over and into what was once, perhaps, a more tolerant democratic Israel in search of a just resolution to its conflicts ?

    I wonder how” aware” our Congress and our State Department is also ?

    Don’t you?

    .

    Read More
  148. Anonymous says:     Show CommentNext New Comment

    The American Reinvestment and Recovery Act and the brain initiative are the worst scams ever perpetrated on the American people. Former U. S. Surgeon General Regina Benjamin Warns: Biochips Hazardous to Your Health: Warning, biochips may cause behavioral changes and high suicide rates. State Attorney Generals are to revoke the licenses of doctors and dentists that implant chips in patients. Chip used illegally for GPS, tracking, organized crime, communication and torture. Virginia state police have been implanting citizens without their knowledge and consent for years and they are dying! Check out William and Mary’s site to see the torture enabled by the biochip and the Active Denial System. See Terrorism and Mental Health by Amin Gadit or A Note on Uberveillance by MG & Katina Michael or Safeguards in a World of Ambient Intelligence by Springer or Mind Control, Microchip Implants and Cybernetics. Check out the audio spotlight by Holosonics. The truth is the biochip works like a sim card. It received pulsed modulated laser beams and millimeter wave which it converts into electromagnetic waves that your brain interprets into digital images and sound. It then takes what your brain sees and hears and converts electromagnetic waves into digital and acoustic waves that a computer translates into audio and video. In other words, it allows law enforcement to see what you see, hear what you hear and communicate directly with your brain.

    “Former Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) director and now Google Executive, Regina E. Dugan, has unveiled a super small, ingestible microchip that we can all be expected to swallow by 2017. “A means of authentication,” she calls it, also called an electronic tattoo, which takes NSA spying to whole new levels. She talks of the ‘mechanical mismatch problem between machines and humans,’ and specifically targets 10 – 20 year olds in her rant about the wonderful qualities of this new technology that can stretch in the human body and still be functional. Hailed as a ‘critical shift for research and medicine,’ these biochips would not only allow full access to insurance companies and government agencies to our pharmaceutical med-taking compliancy (or lack thereof), but also a host of other aspects of our lives which are truly none of their business, and certainly an extension of the removal of our freedoms and rights.” Google News

    The ARRA authorizes payments to the states in an effort to encourage Medicaid Providers to adopt and use “certified EHR technology” aka biochips. ARRA will match Medicaid $5 for every $1 a state provides. Hospitals are paid $2 million to create “crisis stabilization wards” (Gitmo’s) where state police torture people – even unto death. They stopped my heart 90 times in 6 hours. Virginia Beach EMT’s were called to the scene.
    Mary E. Schloendorff, v. The Society of New York Hospital 105 N. E. 92, 93 (N. Y. 1914) Justice Cardozo states, “every human being of adult years and sound mind has a right to determine what shall be done with his own body; and a surgeon who performs an operation without his patient’s consent, commits an assault, for which he is liable in damages. (Pratt v Davis, 224 Ill. 300; Mohr v Williams, 95 Minn. 261.)

    This case precedent requires police to falsely arrest you or kidnap you and call you a mental health patient in order to force the implant on you. You can also be forced to have a biochip if you have an infectious disease – like Eboli or Aids. Coalition of Justice vs the City of Hampton, VA settled a case out of court for $500,000 and removal of the biochip. Torture is punishable by $1,000 per day up to $2 million; Medical battery is worth $2.05 million.

    They told my family it was the brain initiative. I checked with the oversight board, and it is not! Mark Warner told me it was research with the Active Denial System by the College of William and Mary, the USAF, and state and local law enforcement. It is called IBEX and it is excruciating.

    Read More
Current Commenter says:

Leave a Reply - Comments on articles more than two weeks old will be judged much more strictly on quality and tone


 Remember My InformationWhy?
 Email Replies to my Comment
Submitted comments become the property of The Unz Review and may be republished elsewhere at the sole discretion of the latter
Subscribe to This Comment Thread via RSS Subscribe to All Philip Giraldi Comments via RSS
Personal Classics
A Modern Guernica Enabled by Washington
Pressuring Candidates Even Before They Are Nominated
But is it even a friend?
The gagged whistleblower goes on the record.
Today’s CIA serves contractors and bureaucrats—not the nation.
Pay no mind to the Mossad agent on the line.