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ISIS Must be Destroyed?
But how do we do it?
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The Paris terrorist attack is already bearing bitter fruit. Some wannabe presidential candidates are outdoing each other on how feckless they would be with the lives of American soldiers whose “boots” would be on the ground, while others are proposing shutting down Mosques in the United States, creating internment camps, expanding “hate crime” legislation, generating government databases of Muslims, issuing Muslim ID cards and increasing the ability of the government to spy on all citizens. There have also been calls both in Europe and the U.S. to block the entry of any refugees coming from the Middle East as well as proposals to only admit Christians. GOP Presidential aspirant Ben Carson has called Syrian refugees “rabid dogs” and a Texan politician has described them as rattlesnakes. Hillary Clinton’s top financial backer Israeli Haim Saban has called for “more scrutiny” of Muslims in the United States. The head of the CIA is warning that more ISIS terrorist attacks are “in the pipeline,” which may or may not be true as John Brennan has certainly lied to us in the past and presumably will continue to do so in the future. He is certainly contradicted by the FBI’s James Comey who claims that there is no evidence of any current terrorist plot.

The usual crowd of non-interventionists led by Ron Paul and the not-in-my backyard libertarian punditry is arguing that because U.S. involvement in the Middle East has hitherto been such a disaster no replication of failed policies can possibly be desirable. They point out that the neocons, whose broad agenda is regime change for Muslim governments on behalf of Israel, are braying for war and if they are on one side it behooves the rest of us to line up on the other. Having watched Bill Kristol with his Cheshire cat grin on Sunday morning talk television calling for more war please, I would have to concede that the critics have a point.

Indeed, the foreign policies of both George W. Bush and Barack Obama have been disastrous, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that this time around a rethink about what the persistence of ISIS might mean both to the region and world might not be in order. And even a neocon can be right once in a while, if one discounts his or her motives. Last Tuesday’s Washington Post lead editorial on a neocon dominated opinion page noted correctly that there are a number of “options” between the current incrementalism and all out invasion before stupidly advocating as a priority ousting Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

Not coincidentally, that formula is precisely what the Israeli government would prefer and that demonstrates exactly what is wrong with the neocons. Even when they get something nearly right ideology and Israel trump all other considerations and they wind up with the wrong answer. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who is no doubt delighted by the Paris attacks just as he was after 9/11 because it commits the western powers to a war against Islam and renders invisible Israel’s continuous abuse of the Palestinians, leads the way in actually believing that removing al-Assad is an imperative in spite of the far greater threat represented by ISIS.

But first, a short examination of why ISIS is different is in order. ISIS is arguably the creation of the power vacuum that the United States allowed to develop in the Middle East after it invaded Iraq and then took steps to destabilize the government of Syria. Conceding that, the arguments that the non-interventionists make for not engaging in further meddling in the region have a certain cogency, but the actual threat represented by ISIS must be considered without getting bogged down in what might have been.

It has been noted that without the attacks in Paris there would be no worldwide outrage over ISIS. That is correct because, inevitably, the Western media and its home grown sympathies dominate on the world stage. The overwhelming majority of ISIS victims are, however, Muslims, nearly eighty of whom were killed in bombings in Lebanon and Iraq over the two days prior to Paris, while thousands more Iraqis and Syrians have been executed and buried in mass graves. And then there is the downing of the Russian airliner which killed nearly twice as many people as died in France. There was little expression of solidarity coming out of that, again a tribute to the dominance of the western media which views Russia as a pariah and hardly takes notice of dead Muslims.

The objections being made against taking steps to drive ISIS from its “Caliphate” in Syria-Iraq fall into two categories. One is that a U.S. or NATO led (amounting to the same thing) effort will be both costly and open ended while its chance of achieving real success might be considered debatable in a situation in which there are no real American interests at stake. Second is the likelihood of blowback, that foreign troops on Syrian and Iraqi soil will only destabilize the region further. Likewise, if predominantly Shia military forces (Iran, Lebanon and Iraq) are part of the effort it will only lead to more sectarian strife as ISIS is a Sunni movement. Both objections suggest that terrorism coming out of the Middle East would continue in any event while a new western-backed intrusion into the Arab heartland would motivate many otherwise uncommitted Muslims to back ISIS as it will be seen as a righteous Islamic resistance to the hostile Europeans and Americans.

Let us accept that terrorism will not disappear. It is a weapon of the weak and disenfranchised against those who are strong and at least nominally in control so it will always be with us. Complete security for any society is, in any event, impossible even in a police state. And if ISIS is defeated and denied a homeland of sorts it will scatter and operated through franchises much like al-Qaeda did after the conquest of Afghanistan by U.S. forces and the Northern Alliance while the root cause that has fed Middle Eastern terrorism, the complete shattering of state authority throughout the region due to wars initiated by Washington and Israel, is not going away any time soon.

So if U.S. intervention in the Middle East and south Asia has proven catastrophic and terrorism will not be ended why is it different this time? It is different because ISIS can no longer be contained. It has been able to elevate its game, shifting from a regional source of disorder to a genuine international threat able to send cadres of terrorists into Europe and force hundreds of thousands of refugees to flee their homes. This is not to say that ISIS is able to overthrow any western government, but its ability to mount terrorist attacks worldwide including a capability to bring down airliners and stage simultaneous multiple attacks on a city with sophisticated security thousands of miles away has been a game changer. And it has been able to take advantage of a migrant and refugee crisis that it helped create to distribute its supporters all over Europe and presumably elsewhere, including the United States. Indeed, though the U.S. is a more difficult target than France for a number of reasons, i.e. no land border with the Middle East and a relatively assimilated Muslim population, as a former intelligence officer I well understand that no target is impossible. Far from it. Recent news reports tell of the arrest of five Syrians in Honduras seeking to travel to the United States on stolen Greek passports. And there is a considerable advantage once a would-be terrorist gets inside the U.S. in that it is easy to get hold of weapons and ammunition while soft targets that consist of large numbers of civilians can be found anywhere.

So I consider ISIS to be a genuine threat that must somehow again be contained or even pushed back because removing the group from its occupied territory and forcing it to go on the run will cut it off from its funding and ability to attract and train recruits. It will complicate how it communicates and will disrupt or possibly even destroy its ability to act internationally. But at the same time I accept the arguments being made against any kind of European or American intervention to accomplish that end, which means that the best strategy is to assist local actors with some actual skin in the game to do the pushing with logistical and intelligence assistance as well as air support from the western powers and Russia. Deploying U.S. military forward observers to maximize the efficiency of the airpower already in place would be risky for those involved but would have a considerable impact.

Tightening the ring around ISIS means including all the local players without exception – Syria, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq as well as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. If the Sunni states can pull together a reliable ground force to do the job, so much the better but the objective would be to put unrelenting pressure on ISIS to hasten its eventual demise. It could and probably should all be accomplished under the aegis of the United Nations, which certainly has the authority to sanction a group that has carved out an illegal entity from two existing states, that has carried out numerous war crimes and atrocities, and that is engaged in downing airliners and attacking civilians. A U.N. imprimatur would also authorize the military action against ISIS that the United States has already been undertaking illegally.

Syrian and Iraqi sovereignty must be restored as a sine qua non once ISIS is expelled since the pervasive instability of the region has derived from a lack of legitimate government authority. And a negotiated settlement for Syria that will eventually ease the departure of al-Assad within a stable framework is essential, possibly godfathered by the Russians. Meanwhile the countries sitting on the fence or openly financing and egging ISIS on – which means the Saudis, some Gulf States and Israel – should be made to understand the folly of their current policies. They should be pressured either to keep out of the conflict or finally recognize where their real interests lie. At a minimum, their hypocrisy and inhumanity should be exposed.

I write all of the above as a committed anti-interventionist who otherwise believes that the last really good war the United States has fought ended in 1781 at Yorktown. In my opinion that would still be the case but for the fact that ISIS, cult-like and apocalyptic, has changed the paradigm for terrorism, genuinely putting the “terror” back into it. Even al-Qaeda did not line up hundreds of prisoners and execute them, did not burn people alive and do beheadings. It did not kill seventy helpless Yazidi older women before dumping them in a mass grave because they were “useless” while taking the younger women with them to serve as sex slaves. I do believe ISIS to be both an abomination and a global menace that all nations should unite to suppress. If we do not do something now, the threat will not go away, it will only get worse and many more Americans, Europeans and Arabs will inevitably die as a result.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, History • Tags: ISIS. Terrorism 
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  1. joe webb says:

    here’s how: All Isis suspects (that means who have been watched for some time, etc.) are deported, with tattoos on their feet for future identification.

    This includes all suspected jihadists, regardless of brand name.

    All muzzies who show up at demos in favor of the Jihadists also to be cleaned out and sent home, maybe spared the tattoos.

    No muzzie worship in the streets.

    No more welfare of any sort for Muzzies.

    Any Muzzie found with , horrors…seditious texts, etc…to be deported, in other words no free speech for them.

    All muzzies to be offered a free one-way ticket home. They can take their possessions.

    Any and all threats of public disorder or violence…deported summarily.

    No muzzie dress, no raghead gear, no tents, etc.

    No public funds spent on muzzle education, cultural, religious, or any other thing.

    All muzzies to attend Western Propaganda 101 courses. If they disparage western standards like free speech…deport them without further ado.

    In other words, Repression. If this does not work there will be massive violence directed against them.

    I am the first to note that the Israelies and their agents in the US are the root cause of all this problem. However, nothing can be done about that now.

    I also note that Arab or Persian Strong Man rule is the norm for Orienetal Despotism. Therefore any attempt to ‘build democratic states’ is a fools’ errand or jewish subbversion.

    etc. Joe Webb

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Fran Macadam
    , @KA
    , @bunga
  2. Maj. Kong says:

    The best scenario for the U.S. is to negotiate with Assad to make him a client state of Russia only, and not Iran. Supposedly that’s why fmr. Speaker Pelosi visited Damascus in 2007.

    Failing that, an Iranian ground intervention, or an invasion of Iranian-supported Iraqi Shias, will happen when ISIS can’t be defeated from the air. Hezbollah is tapped out, anything further and their domestic enemies will do them in.

    Syrian and Iraqi sovereignty must be restored as a sine qua non once ISIS is expelled since the pervasive instability of the region has derived from a lack of legitimate government authority.

    That is a clear mistake, Syria and Iraq are artificial states that don’t reflect ethnoreligious realities on the ground. Their borders serve the interests of a long ago British Empire, to prevent the Turks from becoming powerful again, which has now failed.

    I believe that the increase in ISIS plots in the West is indicative of failure on their part. They want to raise a distraction from their home territory. When ISIS emerged after the capture of Mosul, they were encouraging Muslims in Western countries to join them in the Middle East, not carry out attacks at “home”.

    The proper domestic solution for the US and other Western countries, is to shut down all immigration. That would avoid the argument of “discrimination” against a particular religious group. The religious minorities should be armed, not admitted. When this war dies down, we should begin repatriation.

    • Replies: @Quartermaster
  3. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Russia appears to be the only sane force opposing the diabolical machinations of the Western decision makers. The Chinese are ball-less with low T. Europe (East and West) is America’s bitch and will do what America wants. To use an analogy of this relationship, America is like the Playboy Mansion, with stained carpet, 80’s decor, and a 90-year fart gobbling Viagra to get an unnatural hard-on to pretend he can satisfy the 20-something money-grubbing whores who still flock there expecting to get a lot more out of the relationship than they, well, put out.

    Now that’s a war room! Inside Russia’s fortified triple-decker operations base sitting on a maze of secret tunnels where Putin masterminds strikes on ISIS

    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
  4. Leftist conservative [AKA "radical_centrist"] says: • Website

    if the West were to shut down immigration, pull our troops and money away from the middle east, then ISIS will go away.

    Also, who cares? ISIS is just a media boogeyman being used by corp/gov/media as propaganda to create more war propaganda.

    Who cares about the Big Bad ISIS? Not me.

  5. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Fair analysis. I think ISIS needs to be wiped out and that starts by allying with Russia and becoming cooperative with Iran and Shi’ite forces to wipe out extremist groups like AQ, al Nusra and IS. Once those groups are levelled by shelling, troops and sea-to-land bombardment, Assad needs to be retained, and Iraq needs to have some symbolic Head of State, probably a Baathist again, but one whose cabinet is made up of both Shias and Sunnis.

    Those pre-requisites are critical. We also need to be tougher with Qatar and the Saudis in their financing of Wahabbists and Salafists who end up at the top-tiers of ISIS or AQ.

    Finally, Europe needs a completely shut immigration policy, turning back boats like they did in Australia (successfully) and closing all southern and eastern borders with higher levels of customs security. Those who come here illegally are detained and deported to refugee camps in Lebannon, Jordan, or Turkey. The Gulf States also need to be pressured to take some refugees from neighbouring countries.

    I would like to take Christian refugees but it’s difficult to prove if they are or not. Many pretend to be Christians and are actually hard-line Islamists. So the solution is far from simple but one is required nevertheless, and my view is to close the borders.

  6. “No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it”-Albert Einstein

    I think that quote is at the core of the ISIS problem. Clearly it is the current western leadership and its apparatchiks created the problem if ISIS according to this declassified 2012 Defense Intelligence Agency report:

    Then (2012) Defense Intelligence Agency boss General Mike Flynn speaks to the very same document (to al-Jazeera)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SG3j8OYKgn4

    General Flynn clearly states the rise of ISIS had been, in his thinking “willful” and a “policy decision”

    The Turks shooting down a Russian combat jet on the border of Syria this morning (while raising the specter of NATO) hardly points to any change in policy concerning the overthrow of Assad in relation to combating ISIS. Why does Assad have to go at this point? Maybe its because the powers who’ve destroyed Syria are, at this point, terrified of consequences over what they’ve done if Assad were to remain. However nonsensical (stupid actually) was the employ of ISIS to overthrow Assad, they will want cover for what has transpired to now. That said, cowards don’t make particularly effective leaders.

  7. alexander says:

    Dear Mr Giraldi,

    You are absolutely correct…we need to stop ISIS….and a global effort based on cooperation between the US and Russia will likely have the most powerful , durable effect.

    Will that happen ?..I doubt it.

    The second most potent tool to stop ISIS would be to track down every “funding source” for ISIS in the US…that would mean going after every known “advocate” for “regime change “in Syria and Iraq to begin with.

    Since that may well include all “The Clean Break “strategists who championed using proxy forces to roll back Syria from the get go…..at the top of the list, would be many members of AIPAC ,Most Neocon’s and more than a handful of their billionaire backers ..

    Will that happen ?…..I doubt it .

    The third most potent tool for taking the fight to ISIS…would be to “actually” remove “Hezbollah” from our ‘terror watch list”… “arm” them to the teeth..and let them go to work. ..They are, without doubt, the most hard nosed, grittiest and skilled fighters in the region ..They would go after ISIS with a vengeance…..and my guess is we would see results, very fast.

    With Russian logistical support for the Syrian Army coming from the East… US logistical support for Hezbollah coming from the West…and all funding for ISIS cut off in the middle… …we would be mopping up most of ISIS inside of one year…

    Will that happen ?…….I doubt it.

    Since the three most “effective” ways to defeat ISIS, that I can see :

    – Arresting all the” Syria regime changers ” ( who sponsored ISIS ) and their” funding” sources in the US,

    – Thorough cooperation with Russia on every viable level ,

    – “de-listing, “unchaining” and equipping “Hezbollah” and letting them go hog wild on ISIS,

    are, in fact, the three things “least likely” to happen…..

    we should all be prepared for a long , hard , very stupid , and very expensive slog.

  8. “Tightening the ring around ISIS means including all the local players without exception – Syria, Lebanon, Hezbollah, Iran, Turkey, Egypt, Jordan and Iraq as well as Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States. ”

    No, first on the menu is the local players on Western soil. Stop the undertow of Muslims into Europe and the United States and Canada. Then, clean out the players here, on Western soil. It is beyond clear Muslims are a hostile, hateful menace. Even those that don’t do the deeds cheer on and support and finance those Muslims that do perform their ugly deeds in the name of Islam. They are a collective lost cause. These are facts. Deport them without prejudice, eliminate all resistance, remove them in ruthless fashion from First World populations. Just make it so. Saudi, Kuwait, Syria, Iraq and others these folks are THEIR problems but instead, we’ve taken the problem, a deadly one, onto our own soil into our own midst. Just look what the cost.

    No other solution bears inspection. Why bother waiting for the threat to come up the walk to your front door when the threat is already inside the house? It’s that simple. Otherwise, and maybe this decision has been made, accept the fact that we’re going to have to take a beating once in awhile.

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  9. neutral says:

    ISIS is supported by Turkey, Qatar and Saudi Arabia, unless you tackle those countries first, nothing can be achieved.

  10. geokat62 says:

    Meanwhile the countries sitting on the fence or openly financing and egging ISIS on – which means the Saudis, some Gulf States and Israel – should be made to understand the folly of their current policies.

    Phil, doesn’t this get at the heart of the larger question: should the US be pursuing the neocon strategy of remaking the ME in an effort to make the jungle a little safer for the villa?

    Isn’t IS a sub-plot of this larger story? If so, why not tackle the bigger issue, head on?

    If they “should be made to understand the folly of their current policies,” then I’d recommend going “whole hog.”

  11. geokat62 says:
    @joe webb

    I am the first to note that the Israelies and their agents in the US are the root cause of all this problem. However, nothing can be done about that now.

    So rather than dealing with the root cause, as you rightly identified it, we have no other recourse than to treat the symptoms with band-aid solutions?

    I say people of the US need to take a page from the people of the Phillipines when they exercised “People Power” and marched on the palace of president Ferdinand Marcos demanding his resignation. Or the people of the former soviet republics who rallied together demanding an end to authoritarian rule.

    The American people need to organize a million man march on Washington DC demanding their liberation from Zionist rule.

    And they should all carry placards with the following proposals for ending Zionist rule:

    1. public money for public elections
    2. all foreign agents must register under FARA
    3. no more wars for Israel
    4. end the occupation, now
    5. the perpetrators of the illegal invasion of Iraq must be brought to justice
    6. the perpetrators of torture must be brought to justice

    I’ll leave it to others to add to this list.

    [MORE]

    P.S. Leading members of the George W Bush administration along with Blair and the leading neocons/Israel firsters must be brought to justice for the crime of launching an aggressive war against Iraq. The names of the leading neocon/Israel firsters are:

    Paul Wolfowitz
    Richard Perle
    Abram Shulsky
    Douglas Feith
    Lewis Scooter Libby
    Judith Miller
    Michael Ledeen
    The Kagan clan, incl. Victoria Nudelman
    The Kristol clan
    The Podhoretz clan
    David and Meyrav Wurmser
    Paul Bremer
    Joe Lieberman
    Chuck Schumer
    Alan Dershowitz
    John Hagee
    Pat Robertson
    Eternal World Television Network (EWTN)
    Elliot Abrams
    William Luti
    Eliot A. Cohen
    Eliot Engel
    Charles Krauthammer
    David Frum
    David Horowitz
    Ken Pollack
    Walter Slocombe
    John Bolton
    Jennifer Rubin
    Joshua Muravchik
    Michael Rubin
    Frank Gaffney
    Ed Royce
    Daniel Pipes
    Marc Grossman
    James Woolsey
    Michael Chertoff
    Sheldon Adelson
    Rudy Giuliani
    Newt Gingrich

    The names of the torture facilitators are:

    Bruce Jessen
    James Mitchell
    Alberto Gonzales
    Timothy Flanigan
    John Yoo
    John Rizzo
    Jay Bybee
    Ricardo Sanchez
    Robert Delahunty

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @joe webb
  12. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    A few more addenda:

    7. no dual citizens in positions of high office
    8. Israel must become a signatory of the NPT
    9. no more tribute paid to Israel
    10. no more UN vetoes for Israel

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
  13. What all those unattached young men, those future jihadiis need, is girlfriends. They inhabit a part of the world that has an enormous man-woman problem. I suggest the situation be defused with an insertion of a bevy of hookers, no, no, I mean escorts. Sensual, available, nubile young women who for a fee, a generous one, provide human comfort to a generation of restless, frustrated young men.
    That sort of proactive subversion coupled with removal of Western influences from that unhappy region might save the day. And more than a few lives.

  14. This Is Our Home [AKA "Robert Rediger"] says:

    Phillip Giraldi’s worldview:

    1. Invade the world invite the world, to spite Israel.

    2. Destroy Europe to spite Israel.

    3. Destroy America to spite Israel.

    Basically, as long as it is to spite Israel then he backs it.

    Sensible, sane Europeans and Americans must disagree. We should ignore Israel, save our militaries for self-defence and protect our homelands from colonisation.

    Geokat’s worldview: ‘Europeans and Americans go away and kill yourselves and take Israel down with you so that my people can take your stuff with no effort.’

  15. @Maj. Kong

    Sikes-Picot was a serious mistake post WW1. Even the Ottoman kept what we called Iraq as 3 separate provinces, and for very good reason. Sad to think an Ottoman Musloid Caliph had more sense than the highly educated westerners that destroyed the Ottoman Empire.

    • Replies: @This Is Our Home
  16. This Is Our Home [AKA "Robert Rediger"] says:
    @Quartermaster

    Sikes-Picot was a serious mistake post WW1. Even the Ottoman kept what we called Iraq as 3 separate provinces, and for very good reason. Sad to think an Ottoman Musloid Caliph had more sense than the highly educated westerners that destroyed the Ottoman Empire.

    It made perfect sense for ‘divide and rule.’

  17. Rehmat says:

    I’m sure Mr. Giraldi knows the answer. Remove the Zionist cancer from the area, and all the regional bloodshed would stop in no time.

    The US vice-President Joe Biden, a blind supporter of Israel in his own words (watch a video below), has finally admitted that Washington has no problem with Iran’s nuclear program. It wants a regime change in Tehran because that’s what Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu and powerful Jewish lobby groups in the US want.

    “The only thing that would satisfy (US-Iran nuclear) deal opponents including Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu, is “a regime change” that could only come with US power,” Biden said in September 2015 in an address at the Ahavath Achim synagogue in Atlanta.

    http://rehmat1.com/2015/09/05/joe-biden-netanyahu-wants-a-regime-change-in-tehran/

  18. The U.S. has established itself as thoroughly duplicitous so that everyone in that region or playing a role there know that there is at least a figurative “list” that each of them is on for eventual regime change. This includes Saudi Arabia, Russia, and Iran. Consequently, no one has an incentive to help the U.S. create orderly conditions where the regime change plan can continue unimpeded. With all that is going on, the U.S. insists Assad must go after we helped light the fuse which blew Syria up. It’s our M.O., as well established with Iraq, Ukraine, and elsewhere. We make no secret of our long term plans. Government and non-government commentators routinely identify any potential effective allies such as Iran or Russia as the enemy which will have to be dealt with eventually, even when saying they can be used for the moment. Our lying deceitful government, bent upon total “full spectrum” military domination, has become the enemy of the world if by enemy it is meant who causes the most harm. Sixty million displaced people in the mideast now as a direct result of the West’s, to include Israeli, policies since Sykes-Picot but accelerating with 9/11 is evidence of that. How much strength and recruits did ISIS gain with the 2014 Israeli attack on Gaza, fully backed by the U.S.? Unless open season on Muslims and other governments by the U.S., aided by NATO partners ceases, a global insurgency against U.S. military rule and its willing allies will continue on an ever growing global scale, regardless of how many or whose “boots are on the ground” in Syria, unless the U.S. with all its machinations is not involved and allows an organic resolution to come about, even with involvement by Assad’s allies who are now seen as more honest than the U.S.

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
  19. Sherman says:

    “Some wannabe presidential candidates”

    Huh?

    The folks Giraldi is referring to are already presidential candidates. They are not “wannabe” presidential candidates.

    This sentence makes no sense, just as most of Gialdi’s analysis makes no sense.

  20. ISIS is supported by Israel, Turkey, and the gulf states all of which are supported by Washington. All “we” have to do is withdraw “our” support and ISIS will be completely destroyed by the Russia/Iran alliance. Unfortunately, Imperial aggression around the world including the Middle East will continue until the Empire collapses from it’s own stupidity.

    Now the Turks have entered the war against Russia in Syria. I take this to mean that Washington is willing to go to war with Russia (and China) to achieve it’s mad dream of ruling the world by force of arms. The American people have no say in this matter. We can pray. We can duck and cover. That’s about it.

  21. RobinG says:

    Turkey Downs a Russian SU-24 Jet Fighter

    Instead of effectively cooperating against DAESH, our presumed ally Turkey is shooting down the Russians. This is a big move in the wrong direction.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/us-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUSKBN0TD0IR20151124#RAvS3jFdHoX8qyvw.97

  22. Rurik says:

    due to wars initiated by Washington and Israel, is not going away any time soon.

    … ISIS can no longer be contained.

    Russian warplane is shot down by Turkey

    http://news.sky.com/story/1593241/putin-downing-of-jet-a-stab-in-the-back

    ISIS can not be contained because the Zio-west are using them as their pawns and storm-troopers in their, by now, obvious agenda

    So I consider ISIS to be a genuine threat that must somehow again be contained or even pushed back

    how about we just stop funding and arming them?

    It’s clear that ISIS exists because our leaders want them to exist. Israel is already drilling in the Golan Heights, Turkey demands the Hatay Province. ISIS is obviously a tool of greatThe Zio-Agenda

    If the Sunni states can pull together a reliable ground force to do the job, … on ISIS to hasten its eventual demise.

    the Sunni states love ISIS. That’s were all the sub-human head slicers are coming from. ISIS is funded and manned in large part by the Sunni states. Why would they want to harm the vanguard of their own deeply held aspiration – the Gadhafi-like lynching of the hated Assad and the wholesale slaughter of his Alawite tribe and assorted Christians and apostates?

    Syrian and Iraqi sovereignty must be restored as a sine qua non

    YES!

    And a negotiated settlement for Syria that will eventually ease the departure of al-Assad within a stable framework is essential, possibly godfathered by the Russians.

    WTF?

    so now you’re also demanding that ‘Assad has to go’?! What about the Syrian people? Do they have a say?

    Meanwhile the countries sitting on the fence or openly financing and egging ISIS on – which means the Saudis, some Gulf States and Israel – should be made to understand the folly of their current policies. They should be pressured either to keep out of the conflict or finally recognize where their real interests lie. At a minimum, their hypocrisy and inhumanity should be exposed.

    once you get rid of Assad and Israel claims the Golan it’s mission completed, then they’d have little reason to continue this monstrous charade

    I do believe ISIS to be both an abomination and a global menace that all nations should unite to suppress.

    I agree Mr. G.,

    but ISIS is our (Zio-western) creation. They exist for the express purpose of removing the legal government of Assad. It is because Putin’s Russia is protecting that government that (with NATO backing) Turkey (apparently) just shot down a Russian plane.

    this could get ugly

    and the battle lines are thus

    Israel wants the Golan Heights, that’s why they’re aligned with the Sunnis and Turks who all have their own less than noble agenda. The west will do whatever Bibi and the rest of the Zionists like Bill Kristol demand. That is clear.

    So now this conflict is getting closer and closer to Master-Blaster on one side, and Putin and Assad and sanity and International Rule of Law (that I’m nostalgic for) on the other.

    • Replies: @Karl
  23. @Robert Magill

    Yeah, and I know of a chick with suitable talent–Monica Lewinsky! She could pleasure would-be jihadiis just as she pleasured “Blow Job Bill” Clinton.

  24. joe webb says:
    @geokat62

    for your pleasure, google Uncle Sam and Joe Webb and see my avatar Uncle Sam with his sign, ” I want you to die for Israel”, and, “Israel sings: Onward Christian Soldiers.”

    This helped in the early 2000’s to destroy the SF nitwit peacenik innocence and their showing up for the peace/love marches organized by Trotskyist ANSWER (Jewish Becker Bros ). The peaceniks were at instructed by thousands of leaflets that uncle Sam distributed detailing the whole deal, starting with the neocons. This continued for about 3 years.

    Joe Webb

    PS, we are a couple years away from people marching on Washington/jews with pitchforks.

    Furthermore, I am for total evacuation of muzzles from Europe, just as I am for same with meters here. However, we are still a couple years away from that.

    I do thank Nature however for mexers as opposed to muzzies or Congolese, etc.

  25. joe webb says:

    from American Renaissance, Nov 20. news section

    “According to the Reuters survey, 58 percent Americans say they “don’t identify with what America has become.” While Republicans and Independents are the most likely to agree with this statement, even 45 percent of Democrats share this feeling.

    More than half of Americans, 53 percent, say they “feel like a stranger” in their own country.

    strangers in a very strange land.

    correction above to muzzies and mexers. pretty soon spellcheck will be programmed to purge anything hateful…hoo boy.Joe Webb

  26. Unfortunately Phil your armchair is not the one the neocon civil generals are pitching their war from. John Bolton has today an editorial in the New York Times in which he specifically calls for the elimination of much of Syria and Iraq. That the area happens to be Islamic State gives legs to the theory that the west has not really been interested in defeating ISIS so much as trying to use it as a stalking horse through less than all out attacks only in certain areas that threaten western holdings. I recall Putin’s comments that his “partners” seemed to be enabling it so it would accomplish regime change aims, without a clear plan on how they were going to eliminate it once it had accomplished its purpose for them. Now that Turkey has intentionally shot down a Russian jet attacking ISIS, something which is hard to believe could have occurred without consulting NATO and the United States for permission, it becomes clear, just as Ash Carter put it last week, that Russia is our adversary and ISIS is not a threat.

    I sympathize with your intent, which if as you describe, it were actually to happen that way. But it won’t. It’s like Just War Theory which defines why and how a war is to be declared and conducted. The reality is that there hasn’t been a single one waged that ever followed those precepts. Obviously those waging war have their plans and justifications. It’s ironic that the derision over Saddam’s comments about “the mother of all battles” is looming now, driven in a major way by his Ba’athist officers who are ISIS’ commanders.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @Kiza
  27. @joe webb

    “I also note that Arab or Persian Strong Man rule is the norm for Orienetal Despotism. Therefore any attempt to ‘build democratic states’ is a fools’ errand or jewish subbversion.”

    From your agenda, I see you favor despotism and strong arm tactics here as well, the overthrow of our democracy and constitution. What a tangled Webb you weave.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @joe webb
  28. @Anonymous

    Pithy, thanks. A better description of the current situation than almost all of the billions of words written about it previously.

    I would only add that what is occurring is no better or moral than when the dupes couldn’t VOTE. Thanks VOTERS for endorsing the absolute insanity that is government. Your misshapen mindset aligns nicely with the misshapen mindset of your Lords and Masters.

  29. @Robert Magill

    Sort of move Paradise from the afterlife to the here and now?

    • Replies: @RobinG
  30. @Jim Christian

    “Jim Christian” :

    Dude, you are about as Christian as Judas.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @geokat62
  31. joe webb says:

    Having just finished my re-read of the Iliad, I wonder about the ancient northern hunter-gatherers, the subsequent meeting up with near east farmers, and then finally the meeting-up with the Indo-Europeans who were basically tough guys with military based social organization, and relative egalitarianism, as in military careers open to talent, all of whom per Kevin MacDonald’s talks and his work on a new book, interbred to form …

    The White Man.

    I am not at all clear on the putative Indo-Europeans. I have understood that they were probably out of the same cradle around present day Ukraine, that sent Latins and Greeks south about 1 to 2 thousand years before Christ.

    This is a great subject and could be addressed by Mr. Frost and others who are pretty well informed .

    There was a story yesterday on new DNA evidence in this regard (NYT ). This evidence puts man in Europe earlier than was commonly believed…about 41000 years ago.
    My re-read of the Iliad seems to place Mycennae and Troy, etc. in the category of these military societies. High Individualism, martial spirit, and Personalism…that is, Law comes from the personality of the top guy, who must possess substantial human relations skills to keep it all together. Priam remarks that he had 50 sons…19 as I recall by his wife, and the rest by concubines. Daughters are unremarked . my kind of guy.

    Now instead of Hectors, we got femi-commies and eunuchs, and some of the latter are even on this list.

    Joe Webb

  32. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website

    Now that Turkey has intentionally shot down a Russian jet attacking ISIS, something which is hard to believe could have occurred without consulting NATO and the United States for permission, it becomes clear, just as Ash Carter put it last week, that Russia is our adversary and ISIS is not a threat.

    Fran, even Kissinger conceded that the main goal of the West is to break Russia.

    http://nationalinterest.org/feature/the-interview-henry-kissinger-13615

    Nothing new here, the same as the fact that most “Western” media are supporting, sometimes openly, often tacitly, terrorism as long as it is directed against Russia. The real reasons for that could be a very interesting subject of study but this issue doesn’t get much traction in “academe” for a number of reasons. I do disagree, somewhat, with your assessment of the “war theory”, since contingencies are precisely what true military and intelligence professionals are dealing with;-) It is fascinating, though, to observe how the whole “western” circus is being unmasked.

  33. RobinG says:
    @Fran Macadam

    The Paradise fantasy doesn’t involve camp-followers. Stick to your own myths.

    Much as Sophie tries to steer to dumb stereotypes, Atran holds his course:
    https://www.rt.com/shows/sophieco/322242-isis-paris-attacks-war/
    ISIS sings the same tune Hitler did, promising Utopia in the end – Terrorism researcher

  34. Jim says:

    The sensible policy for Europe to follow is to stop any further immigration of Moslems and begin expelling the Moslem population in Europe back to where they came from.

    It is all very well to destroy ISIS but they will just be replaced by another group. Islam and the West are fundamentally incompatible.

  35. RobinG says:

    What would it take to just get this thru committee? (If Turkey hasn’t already made this irrelevant. Was the shoot down approved, or ordered, by US/NATO?)
    http://gabbard.house.gov/index.php/press-releases/520-reps-tulsi-gabbard-austin-scott-introduce-legislation-to-end-illegal-u-s-war-to-overthrow-syrian-government-of-assad

    Reps. Tulsi Gabbard, Austin Scott Introduce Legislation to End Illegal U.S. War to Overthrow Syrian Government of Assad
    November 19, 2015

    Washington, DC—Today, Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D-HI) and Rep. Austin Scott (R-GA), both members of the House Armed Services Committee, introduced H.R. 4108, a bipartisan bill to end U.S. efforts to overthrow the Syrian Arab Republic led by President Bashar al-Assad.

    Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard, a twice-deployed combat veteran, said the intent of the bill is to “Bring an immediate end to the illegal, counter-productive war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad.”

    Rep. Tulsi Gabbard explained,“The U.S. is waging two wars in Syria. The first is the war against ISIS and other Islamic extremists, which Congress authorized after the terrorist attack on 9/11. The second war is the illegal war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad.

    “The war to overthrow Assad is counter-productive because it actually helps ISIS and other Islamic extremists achieve their goal of overthrowing the Syrian government of Assad and taking control of all of Syria—which will simply increase human suffering in the region, exacerbate the refugee crisis, and pose a greater threat to the world. Also, the war to overthrow Assad is illegal because Congress never authorized it.”

    Congressman Austin Scott said, “Our primary mission should be the war against ISIS, al Qaeda, and radical Islamic extremists that have operations both inside and outside of Syria and Iraq. Those groups have carried out attacks on American allies, and are currently threatening attacks on our homeland. This represents a clear and present danger to our citizens, and I support eliminating these radical Islamic terrorists through any means necessary. Working to remove Assad at this stage is counter-productive to what I believe our primary mission should be.”

    Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard said, “Here are 10 reasons the U.S. must end its war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad:

    1. Because if we succeed in overthrowing the Syrian government of Assad, it will open the door for ISIS, al-Qaeda, and other Islamic extremists to take over all of Syria. There will be genocide and suffering on a scale beyond our imagination. These Islamic extremists will take over all the weaponry, infrastructure, and military hardware of the Syrian army and be more dangerous than ever before.

    2. Because overthrowing the Syrian government of Assad is the goal of ISIS, al-Qaeda, and other Islamic extremist groups. We should not be allying ourselves with these Islamic extremists by helping them achieve their goal because it is against the security interests of the United States and all of civilization.

    3. Because the money and weapons the CIA is providing to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad are going directly or indirectly into the hands of the Islamic extremist groups, including al-Qaeda affiliates, al-Nusra, Ahrar al-Sham, and others who are the actual enemies of the United States. These groups make up close to 90 percent of the so-called opposition forces, and are the most dominant fighters on the ground.

    4. Because our efforts to overthrow Assad have increased and will continue to increase the strength of ISIS and other Islamic extremists, thus making them a bigger regional and global threat.

    5. Because this war has exacerbated the chaos and carnage in Syria and, along with the terror inflicted by ISIS and other Islamic extremist groups fighting to take over Syria, continues to increase the number of Syrians forced to flee their country.

    6. Because we should learn from our past mistakes in Iraq and Libya that U.S. wars to overthrow secular dictators (Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi) cause even more chaos and human suffering and open the door for Islamic extremists to take over in those countries.

    7. Because the U.S. has no credible government or government leader ready to bring order, security, and freedom to the people of Syria.

    8. Because even the ‘best case’ scenario—that the U.S. successfully overthrows the Syrian government of Assad—would obligate the United States to spend trillions of dollars and the lives of American service members in the futile effort to create a new Syria. This is what we have been trying to do in Iraq for twelve years, and we still have not succeeded. The situation in Syria will be much more difficult than in Iraq.

    9. Because our war against the Syrian government of Assad is interfering with our being one-pointedly focused on the war to defeat ISIS, al-Qaeda, and the other Islamic extremists who are our actual enemy.

    10. Because our war to overthrow the Assad government puts us in direct conflict with Russia and increases the likelihood of war between the United States and Russia and the possibility of another world war.”

    Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard said, “To destroy ISIS will take international alliances. If we are serious about defeating ISIS and solving the refugee problem, we’ll work in partnership with Russia, France, and anyone else who is serious about destroying ISIS and affiliated Islamic extremist organizations worldwide.

    “The problem is, because the U.S. is trying to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad and Russia is supporting the government of Assad, it is impossible for us to have an effective, cooperative relationship with Russia in our mutual fight against ISIS. Our focus on overthrowing Assad is interfering with our ability to destroy ISIS.”

    “We must immediately end the illegal, counter-productive war to overthrow the Syrian government of Assad and ally ourselves with any countries willing to focus on destroying the Islamic extremists who pose a genuine threat to civilization,” Congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard concluded.

  36. annamaria says:

    Why was Turkey so comfortable and self-assured when shooting the Russian plane fighting ISIS? Upon shooting down the plane, Turkey had first contacted NATO, leaving a question: who are the Turkey handlers at NATO? And let’s see how the US and Israel address the situation when a supporter of ISIS – Turkey – attacks the enemy of ISIS – Russia. For now, the US, EU, and Israel site with Turkey: http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-turkey-russian-plane-20151124-story.html
    It seems that the War of Terror has never been the war on terror but a war on the US’ taxpayers’ pockets and on human rights. The “collateral damage” has been growing

    • Replies: @Rurik
  37. ISIS is something to bomb. It is the perfect enemy for our war profiteers. It is weak and evil. The Sunni Arabs are going to reign in the terrorist as much as Israel is going to reign in their settlers. All the great powers including the US and Russia are too chicken to deal with these states as they deserve. I stopped taking things seriously at that part in the article. We might as well put our faith in god or ask Santa to make ISIS go away. If people in the Middle East value their lives they’d be heading to Western Europe. No one is going to drop bombs on them there.

    ISIS is the creation of the Neocons when they fired the Iraqi government and put the Shia in power. It is the product of American intervention in Syria and Libya. It is the product of the Sunni Arab policy goal of destroying the Shia and their allies. ISIS provides a reason for the US Empire to loot the American treasury. Why would our war profiteers want to kill off this lucrative boogeyman?

    On a serious note. How many dead Russian soldiers killed by NATO does it take to start World War III?

  38. Sam Shama says:

    Dr Giraldi,
    I passionately agree with nearly every word you wrote here. I would like to offer a few additional observations:

    For the limited engagement (air support and logistics to local actors) that you propose, it is imperative that a citizens’ movement in this country in the form of an organised internet petition, possibly supplemented by a march to Washington (as geokat suggested) should have a core set of demands:
    (a) No American direct involvement in the war that is unfolding under any circumstances unless a recognised state actor provides legitimate casus belli [the chances of which are remote]

    (b) The UR provides a great forum for Americans to get educated on the matter, but it might be difficult for many to glean the basic factors which affect the immediate objectives at hand, viz. prophylactic actions against a war.

    (c) All citizens directly write to their Congressmen and Senators on this website to forcefully urge them to endorse this viewpoint on the website as a permanent public record. This would act much like a public referendum on the matter.

    (d) Urge Congressmen and Senators to stop any and all incitement against Muslims in this country [the UR is plastered with so much bile including articles that propose reverse-engineered rubbish like ‘Terrorism Quotients’ etc.]

    (2) Saudi Arabia and its salafist partners in the Gulf are hell-bent on destroying Syria, eliminating Russian/Iranian influence [this is an old fight after all] that they seem totally oblivious to their budgetary situation, which is already showing incredible strain with the price of oil hitting lows as they keep defending its peg to the USD like a cornered animal. That peg will break within 1 or 2 years at most. This will cause havoc in the ME, as the princes will scuttle their country and the salafists will gain.

    I propose another website (possibly hosted by Unz Review, for which I am willing to contribute to the utmost of my abilities and urge others to consider it as well) in which American citizens unreservedly tell the Saudis, Turks and Israelis to come to their senses, retrace their steps and know in no uncertain terms the mind of the American public.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  39. @Fran Macadam

    Well, Fran, it’s my last name. Nonetheless, what isn’t Christian about defending the culture? We Christians have been down this road before, this is an ugly undertow that seems to back up into the drain every 1000 years or so. Said undertow’s removal circa-600AD, I believe, enabled the modern age, so while I WISH and WANT (like the French) for the undertow to assimilate, I know the opposite is reality. And so, a culture that wants to protect itself must eliminate the undertow.

    Not that I run around playing Christian (except at the butcher and baker when I write the check), but what is un-Christian about that, Fran?

    Uh-oh, are yew one-a-them Leftee-feminists? Is that your objection?

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  40. Qasim says:

    It seems to me that desperate times call for more drastic measures.

    Some of the commenters have already brought up the Sykes-Picot agreements. Perhaps the source of the matter has to be dealt with if any decisive solution is to emerge.

    For example, what if the West gave Turkey the green light to just annex Syria? And provided them billions of dollars to buy the necessary weapons and repatriate the refugees?

    Turkey and Erdogan would get to partially revive their Ottoman empire and remove the hated Assad. The majority Sunnis would get to be ruled by their co-religionists and a relatively prosperous country. The Turks would then also have a good reason to completely wipe out ISIS. As long as the Alawites are given guarantees for their safety, it seems like a win-win, no?

    All throughout history, borders changed. The post WWII ethos that they should for the most part remain inviolable seems to me like the policy of extinguishing every forest fire in the National Parks in the West. It just leads to the leaf litter building and building until some massive inferno almost incinerates everything.

  41. @Fran Macadam

    Hi Fran

    Your level comments are welcome in a more typical environment of western male ego priapism found in this forum. Noting yourself as one of the few sane voices in this venue, I’ll offer some proposed insight:

    When the middle east was ‘decolonized’ (in name only) there were artificial boundaries left behind resembling those of the American Indian reservations where tribes with a long history of mutual animosity were forced into cohabitation. Secular strongmen kept a lid on the religious animosity between Shia and Sunni (the main and most problematic rivalry) in a region with an otherwise naturally decentralized body politic represented in various tribes and clans with local tradition of authority. There is no nation state tradition per se in the sense we know in ‘the west.’

    The folly of attempting to impose western style (liberal) democracy on what amount to artificial entities to begin with (‘states’ comprised of arbitrary, colonial era drawn borders, incorporating peoples with longstanding differences and simmering animosities) is certain to see profound consequence. As much as it might be an undesirable short term and self-centered interest of less than noble parties to break these artificial entities up, the reality is any previous delicate balance has been so deeply compromised and poisoned, and the historic animosity between the areas indigenous rivals so stirred, there is no going back to the old status quo. ‘All the king’s horses and all the king’s men won’t put this humpty back together again.’

    In the short term, America’s neo-cons (and neo-liberals) have, in a sense, won. But what? No one can predict where, when or what is going to come of this incredibly stupid gambit where the attempted overthrow of Assad was so great a fascination of converging, short-sighted interests, to go so far as to knowingly allow, nay, actually make that fostering, the rise of Islamic State.

    Sunni Iraq is de facto broken off from Shia Iraq, Sunni Syria is effectively broken off from Alawite and Christian Syria and the Kurds, the largest stateless ethnic group in the world, is a wild card determined to have what they should have been allowed in the beginning, their own nation-state. Most Kurds are in Turkey with sizable populations in Iraq, Iran and Syria. Kurd national aspirations trump their largely Sunni religious affiliation. Erdogan, reflecting a long time Turkish chauvinism in relation to other ethnic groups, has destroyed what little rapprochement had been accomplished with not only its own Kurdish population, but has alienated the Kurds of Syria and Iraq.

    Phil’s ‘destroying ISIS but how?’ has to take the long view where all of these complications are in play. Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia and Qatar all might give lip service to reasonable solution but the only solution they actually desire is Assad’s ouster and a compliant puppet to replace him. Meanwhile, the western powers have so much ego invested, they can hardly stand to turn a new page if they can’t write the script, although the ‘chickens come home to roost’ in Paris might have slapped some sense into Hollande, but we won’t know that for certain right away.

    That sole, overarching fact is, international law and the United Nations, based in western traditions, are no match for the forces released with the meddling in this region by the the no less than incredible stupidity of the western powers leadership. When the dust settles, let’s just hope it’s not radioactive –

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @L.K
  42. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    Turkey had first contacted NATO, leaving a question: who are the Turkey handlers at NATO?

    I doubt Turkey was the one to place the phone call. I don’t think someone there said, ‘hey, the Ruskies are killing our mercs, and it’s pissing us off. Can we shoot down one of their planes’?

    Rather, I suspect that at the highest levels of Zio-NATO, some typical thugs were thinking of the best way to punish Putin since blowing up the Russian jet didn’t seem to make much of a dent. So probably this guy

    called this guy

    and told him to have his crew take out a Sukhoi

    then he probably called John Kerry and told him what they’d decided to do

    It seems that the War of Terror has never been the war on terror but a war on the US’ taxpayers’ pockets and on human rights.

    The War on Terror is a war on any and all resistance to greater Zionism, which intends us all to eventually be treated like the ultimate terrorists themselves; the Palestinians.

    Already we have the check points and Israeli trained brutal and murderous police and a total surveillance state. Already we have rendition and torture camps and assassinations of American citizens by drone or otherwise if they are deemed a “terrorist”. Even sixteen year old American boys.

    Already millions of Iraqi and Syrians and Libyans are Pakistanis don’t know when the Hellfire missiles will rain down from the sky on their wedding or funeral if a guest is a known “terrorist”

    And if anyone objects to the tactics of the War on Terror, then that makes them a terrorist too.

    They know there’s going to be resistance as the rest of the world are increasinlyg going to be treated like Palestinians. I was listening to the radio earlier saying that France has become an absolute police state following the Paris attack. Perhaps it was a French 911 in more ways than one. Perhaps it will be used to put invisible chains on the French people and crack down on any resistance to the state.

    Resistance to the state is terrorism. And the War on Terror is a war on any who might resist the absolute power of the (Zio) state.

    that is what the Project for a New American Century is all about

    • Replies: @annamaria
  43. […] [Giraldi’s] ‘destroying ISIS but how?’ has to take the long view where all of these complications are in play. Turkey, Israel, Saudi […]

  44. @Qasim

    Syrian Sunnis being predominantly Arab, there is no way they would accept being ruled by Turks or being annexed. The Saudis allied with the British to defeat the Sunni Ottoman Empire that had control of a large swathe of Saudi Arabia. You also have to factor in the Syrian and Iraqi Kurds who will not want Turkey increasing its landmass.

    • Replies: @Qasim
  45. RobinG says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    RTW,
    Did you hear Obama’s remarks on downed jet today? A thinly veiled “Russia got what they deserved and there’s more where that came from if they don’t stop bombing ‘our’ rebels.”

    It looks like he’s endorsing the Turks. I didn’t here any regrets. Call for more coordination means, ‘Do what we tell you.”

    As far as radioactive, with all the depleted uranium the US uses,, the dust of the fertile crescent is already contaminated for millennia.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  46. Kiza says:
    @Fran Macadam

    It is not a “stalking horse” then a Trojan horse, Fran.

    The West is using ISIS as a Trojan horse, as a justification for smashing Syria up. In other words, the West will go into Syria to fight ISIS and it will end up fighting the Syrian Government and the Russians.

    I have been predicting Turkish and Israeli army moving into Syria since ISIS attacked Paris. ISIS had its chance to bring down the Syrian Government, now ISIS, Al Nusra and other “US moderate terrorists” have to move aside for the big boys to finish the job. This shoot-down is to provoke Russia to respond, which would then give Casus Belli to the Coalition of the Sponsors of Terrorism. It is Russia against Israel, US, Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Qatar and possibly the rest of NATO: UK, France, Germany, Italy …

    All the rest is simply the floating stuff in the Western MSM sewerage channels. The Western cattle are being dragged into this war by the nose ring because the Western rulers are not able to manage their own countries without pillaging foreign countries. They create money out of thin air and then go steal someone’s property to justify the existence of the new money (thus “create” assets such as oil, water, arable land).

  47. Rurik says:

    Turkey’s Erdogan schools us all on international protocols and norms as they concern short-term border crossings

    Turkey PM Erdogan issues Syria border warning

    “A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he told Parliament at the time.

    Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom

    ‘Disregard for international norms’

    In a statement, the alliance’s 28 members said the shooting down of the plane was “unacceptable” and they stood together with Turkey “in the spirit of strong solidarity”.

    Nato Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen said: “It is another example of the Syrian authorities’ disregard for international norms. Nato allies will remain seized of developments.”

    Earlier, in a letter to the UN Security Council, Turkey described the shooting down of its reconnaissance plane as a “hostile act” and “a serious threat to peace and security in the region”.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-18584872

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Kiza
  48. The reality is that ISIS is doing Holy work:

    1. The destruction of the remnants of Arab Christendom
    2. The destruction of the Shiite Arabs
    3. The destruction of Secular Arab culture

    The Jews number one enemy for the past 1800+ years has been middle eastern Christians. Whereas the Jewish-Muslim conflict is basically a political one over the Land of Israel, the conflict with the middle eastern Christians is racial. Middle Eastern Christians have been waging war on the Jews for over 1800 years and hence are destined for complete annihilation. It is imperative that Jews support ISIS in their Holy mission of cleansing our region of this filth.

    ISIS is also battling Shiites and Secular Arabs, who while not racial enemies like the Arab Christians, are still enemies who should be destroyed.

    Is ISIS itself an enemy of the Jews? I don’t think they necessarily are. They are religious, not nationalist, so they will be more likely to accept Jewish sovereignty over the totality of the Land of Israel, also they know that they need our support to protect them from the Russians and Iranians.

    Certainly the rapes and tortures that ISIS carries out are deplorable and their terrorism against the West must cease, but they are still serving a very important purpose within the region itself.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Karl
    , @schmenz
  49. geokat62 says:
    @Fran Macadam

    Dude, you are about as Christian as Judas.

    “Dude”? Fran, I didn’t think you had it in ‘ya… I like it.

  50. annamaria says:
    @Rurik

    The US have been ruled by the faux elites made of money-changers and war profiteers. The proud nation has been reduced to a political brothel.
    http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1665.htm
    http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm

    • Replies: @Rurik
  51. joe webb says:
    @Fran Macadam

    how did you knot up your brain to come up with that one?..not twists, just knots.

    “Overthrow our democracy and constitution”? You’re an idiot.

    Joe Webb

    PS I guess my sarcasm is lost on the simple-minded. The Arabs are not capable of democracy, meaning elections, etc. The reason for that is their 85 average IQ, and their clan/ tribe based social organization which precludes larger circles of Trust, large enough to make a nation-state possible.

    They are also part of the Magian Culture Area, which is totalitarian in White and Western terms, magical thinking oriented, incapable of Principled thinking outside of religion. Principled thinking includes the ability to think about the principle as well. Muzzies, and probably most Arab Christians as well, but I dunno here, Believe Totally, and without any critical or doubt type mental process.

    As for the Webb I weave …another idiot statement. There is nothing tangled in an evolutionary perspective. It is arguably incorrect, possibly, but so simple in conception and in application as to avoid the traps and confusions of all Philosophy and Religious clap-trap.

    Tangled…gibberish is what non-evolution based thinking and speaking is.
    The worst I can be called is a “biologistic” reductionist. There could be something in that. However the genes carry enough material to be beyond any simplistic conception or Idea.

    Therein lies the possibilities of high emotional functioning, or what some call “spirituality.” Trouble with those folks in my experience is that they are usually on the dumber side, and are in large fact deficit. You name it…they usually don’t know. Probably like you.

    Joe Webb

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  52. @Jim Christian

    “Nonetheless, what isn’t Christian about defending the culture?”

    The culture I’m surrounded by is not only anti-Christian, it is effectively contraculture. One of Secretary of State’s Kerry’s favorites is Masha Gessen, the woman “wed” to another woman, who lamented that “unfortunately, for now, bombing Moscow is off the table.” She has made no bones about the objective of her cohort, now culturally and politically ascendant, is to not just redefine marriage, but abolish it. Now a major part of the animus is not the lack of democracy in imperfect Russia (which doesn’t bother these folks in regard to unsavory allies) but that it is illegal to distribute propaganda extolling perversion to children. Massa is not affected, being an emigre and having adopted a child who is captive to being taught her own views.

    I am, however, all for defending lives. I would support defending Christian culture, and do, but that is not the majority culture nor is it the one being propagated.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  53. annamaria says:
    @Greasy WIlliam

    ISIS has committed zero hostile actions towards Israel.

  54. @Qasim

    “As long as the Alawites are given guarantees for their safety, it seems like a win-win, no?”

    The only ‘guarantor’ of that safety in play is the Assad government.

  55. annamaria says:
    @RobinG

    “A thinly veiled “Russia got what they deserved and there’s more where that came from if they don’t stop bombing ‘our’ rebels. … It looks like he’s endorsing the Turks.”

    The shooting seems as an active support for Mr. Ash Carter’ threats towards Russia. It is highly doubtful that Turkey would have ever dared to attack the RF if not the US encouragement. The US/Israel need ISIS (Daesh). ISIS is the US/Israel’ creation (and an expensive one) and the Russian attacks on ISIS have been causing a tremendous distress to the deciders in DC and Tel-Aviv.
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/oct/08/russia-pay-price-syrian-airstrikes-ashton-carter-us-defence-secretary

    • Replies: @RobinG
  56. annamaria says:

    A total disgrace:
    “Rather than rebuke Turkey, a NATO member, for its reckless behavior – or express sympathy to the Russians – Obama instead asserted that “Turkey, like every country, has a right to defend its territory and its airspace.” It was another one of Obama’s breathtaking moments of hypocrisy, since he has repeatedly violated the territorial integrity of various countries, including in Syria where he has authorized bombing without the government’s permission and has armed rebels fighting to overthrow Syria’s secular regime.
    … Obama, during the news conference, seemed more interested in demonstrating his disdain for Putin, referring to him at one point by his last name only, without the usual use of a courtesy title, and demeaning the size of Putin’s coalition in helping Syria battle the jihadist rebels. “We’ve got a coalition of 65 countries who have been active in pushing back against ISIL for quite some time,” Obama said, citing the involvement of countries around the world. “Russia right now is a coalition of two, Iran and Russia, supporting [Syrian President Bashar al-] Assad.”
    However, there have been doubts about the seriousness of Obama’s coalition, which includes Sunni countries, such as Saudi Arabia and Turkey, which have been covertly supporting some of the jihadist elements, including Al Qaeda’s Nusra Front and its ally, Ahrar al-Sham.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2015/11/24/turkey-provokes-russia-with-shoot-down/

  57. Qasim says:
    @greysquirrell

    It is true that the Arabs sided with the Allies in WWI and revolted against the Turks.

    But it is also true that the Arabs acquiesced to Turkish rule for many centuries.

    And the Arabs were led to believe that they would be rewarded after the war with a large unified Arab state, not to be dissected into a bunch of horribly jumbled pieces.

    If the other options for Syrian Sunnis are being oppressed by Alawites or being ruled by ISIS psychos, are we sure they would still reject Turkish hegemony? I wonder.

    As for Kurds, perhaps the major border redrawing that needs to take place could include a homeland for them as well.

    In the immediate term this is admittedly fanciful thinking, but I would assume something like this will happen eventually.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  58. @joe webb

    Take some advice from namesake Jack Webb as Sgt. Friday and stick to “Just the facts, Ma’am”!

  59. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik, good point about the turkish jet shot down by Syria in 2012.
    Most egregious double standarts. Plus, the turk jet was really up to no good.

    Obviously enough, Turkey(and all the others; US, Israel, France, UK, Saudis, Catar, Jordan,e tc) have been fighting an illegal proxy war against Syria since day one.

    I generally like Mr.Giraldi’s writings but this time his analysis has been terribly flawed and, in fact, largely disconnected from reality.

    Rurik, you have written some very good criticism of Mr.Giraldi’s article. I’ll try adding a few more points later.

    Also, there should be a LOT MORE discussion on the leaked DIA document, former DIA Chief Michael Flynn statements and various wikileaks cables which prove beyond a doubt the US engineered, long ago, the overthrow of the LEGITIMATE Syrian government.

    The U.S. did not just turn a blind eye to the issue of its allies creating DAESH/ISIS but, as the Defense Intelligence Chief General Flynn stated, took a “willful decision” to facilitate this.

    The DIA document states:

    THERE IS THE POSSIBILITY OF ESTABLISHING A DECLARED OR UNDECLARED SALAFIST PRINCIPALITY IN EASTERN SYRIA (HASAKA AND DER ZOR), AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SUPPORTING POWERS TO THE OPPOSITION WANT, IN ORDER TO ISOLATE THE SYRIAN REGIME, WHICH IS CONSIDERED THE STRATEGIC DEPTH OF THE SHIA EXPANSION (IRAQ AND IRAN)

    ISI COULD ALSO DECLARE AN ISLAMIC STATE THROUGH ITS UNION WITH OTHER TERRORIST ORGANIZATIONS IN IRAQ AND SYRIA,….

    The “supporting powers” are earlier listed (in 7 B) as:

    “Western countries, the Gulf States and Turkey”

    By Western countries one should understand this to be mainly(but not only) the USA, UK and France.

  60. Karl says:
    @Rurik

    >>> Israel wants the Golan Heights

    West Golan became Israeli territory proper – two generations ago. All along, up till now, the Golani Druze have been VERY careful to not become any serious nuisance to the IDF. The Golan Druze have been less rock-the-boat-y than leftists in TelAviv. It is of utmost importance to know that the Druze religion does NOT lend itself to any craziness, as 85% of the tribe is not even allowed to study the liturgy or “gospels”. It `is a VERY hierarchical religion. We will NOT be seeing any change in this percolating up from below, as this rule allows young Druze men to easily “get away” with violating nominal rules like – ban on alcohol, ban on dating non-Druze girls, travel to the fleshpots of Europe/NorthAmerica/Thailand

    In recent months, the Golani Druze are opting to adopt Israeli citizenship. It went from a drip, to a trickle, to a small but constant stream. The possibility of doing well by (e.g.) attending medical school in Damascus, etc, are just a memory now. A Syrian passport is rather worthless nowadays! Whereas with your Israeli passpoft, you can do exciting things like make off-the-books money in kiosks in American malls, fuck American mall-rat sluts, etc.

    A few weeks ago, the Druze battalion was indicated for dis-establishment as part of some over-all defense budget trims. Israeli Druze youth nowadays speak Hebrew so well, that they prefer to select more status-y straight-Hebrew battalions. It’s better for job networking, post-conscript duty. It gets you into nicer villages that are closer to the upper-crust of Industrial parks – less commute time. When you marry and settle down – Israeli law allows the town councils of villages & small townships to VOTE on who may buy property there-in. If the City Assessor’s kid does Reserve duty alongside you- it helps a lot.

    For the same financial reason, the Chief of Staff requested to dis-establish the Beduin Trackers unit. This unit is fabled – the request might not fly.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Rurik
  61. L.K says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Ronald Thomas West:
    “Sunni Syria is effectively broken off from Alawite and Christian Syria”

    This is NOT true. Even Lattakia is mostly Sunni. The majority of the Syrian armed forces and paramilitaries are Sunni as is most of the Syrian government.
    Le Figaro poll: Over 70% want Syria’s Assad to remain in power
    https://www.rt.com/politics/official-word/320261-assad-france-poll-figaro/
    Obviously this includes large numbers of Sunnis and this has been true from the start as revealed by the Guardians J.Steele.
    Here is the Syrian government: Bashar Al-Assad – Alawi, Asmaa` Al-Akras-Al-Assad, First Lady – SUNNI, Dr. Najaah Al-‘Attaar(a woman) – Vice President – SUNNI, Waleed Al-Mu’allim – Foreign Minister – SUNNI, Dr. Faysal Miqdaad – Deputy Foreign Minister – SUNNI,
    Maj. Gen. Muhammad Ibraaheem Al-Sha’aar – Interior Minister and heads 3 security services – SUNNI , Lt. General Fahd Jaassim Al-Furayj – Defense Minister – SUNNI, Lt. General Talaal Tlaas – Deputy Defense Minister – SUNNI, Dr. Waa’il Naadir Al-Halaqi – Prime Minister – SUNNI, ‘Abdullah Al-Ahmar – Deputy Secretary of the Ba’ath Party Pan Arab Command – SUNNI, Lt. General ‘Ali ‘Abdullah Ayyoob – Chief of the Syrian General Staff – ALAWI, ‘Umraan Al-Zu’bi – Minister of Information – SUNNI, Dr. Bashshaar Al-Ja’afari – Syrian Permanent Delegate to the U.N. – SUNNI, Muhammad Jihaad Al-Lahhaam – Speak of the Parliament – SUNNI, Maj. General Muhammad Mahalla – Director of Military Intelligence – SUNNI,
    Maj. General Nazeeh Hassoon – Director of Political Security – SUNNI, Lt. Gen. Ali Mamlook – Special National Security Adviser to the President – SUNNI, Dr. Buthayna Sha’baan – Special Advisor to the President on Foreign Affairs and the Palace spokeswoman – ALAWI.

    So much for the “Alawi regime”.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @KA
  62. Karl says:
    @Greasy WIlliam

    >>> our region

    post a scan of your teudat-zehoot, or STFU and go back to your EBT card -funded cheetohs

    The IDF ===publishes== its own edition of the New Testament, for swearing-in Christian recruits.

    The Aramaic Maronite church in Galilee receives an annual allowance from the Israel Ministry of Religion. Its priests are fully sanctioned to solemnize weddings.

    • Replies: @greysquirrell
  63. geokat62 says:
    @Karl

    Karl, Hasbara has become much less effective thanks to the Internet.

    Here are just two case in points:

    West Golan became Israeli territory proper – two generations ago.

    “Israel passed the Golan Heights Law extending Israeli law and administration throughout the territory in 1981. This move was condemned by the United Nations Security Council in UN Resolution 497, which said that “the Israeli decision to impose its laws, jurisdiction and administration in the occupied Syrian Golan Heights is null and void and without international legal effect.” Israel states it has a right to retain the Golan, citing the text of UN Resolution 242, which calls for “safe and recognised boundaries free from threats or acts of force”. However, the international community reject Israeli claims to title to the territory and regards it as sovereign Syrian territory.”

    In recent months, the Golani Druze are opting to adopt Israeli citizenship. It went from a drip, to a trickle, to a small but constant stream.

    Approximately 10% of Syrian Golan Druze have accepted Israeli citizenship.

  64. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Your’s is by far the best post on all comments boards I have seen since the incident:

    Erdogan: “A short-term border violation can never be a pretext for an attack,” he told Parliament at the time. Mr Erdogan spoke of Turkey’s “rage” at the decision to shoot down the F-4 Phantom. ‘Disregard for international norms’”

    Let me quickly summarize the Western MSM propaganda sewerage channels:
    1) The initial Western sewerage was taken from Turkish “news”, that the Russian plane fell into Turkey, this was quickly changed once it became obvious that the Russian plane was shot-down over Syria and fell 4 km away from the border.
    2) The next sewerage through the channels was that the Russian pilots were killed by Turkmen. Now these “Turkmen” are actually Al Nusra (Al Qaeda) armed by the US, even with the state of the art TOW missiles, which were used to shoot down a Russian rescue helicopter and kill its pilot. Insistence on their nationality instead of their terrorist affiliation is a diversion from the fact who killed the Russian pilots – the direct US terrorist proxies in Syria.
    3) The initial Turkey sourced “news” was that the Russian plane, according to Turkish radar did circles and circles inside Turkish airspace, spending 6 minutes, during which time 10 warnings were issued to the Russian plane. This “news” also disappeared and was replaced with an “airspace violation by Russia”.
    4) The latest Western sewerage is the attack on Russia for “excessively aggressive talk”. Russia, suck it up, shut up and behave.

    BBC is, as usual, the loudest dog in the Western alliance, the same BBC which was so outraged at the shoot-down of the Turkish F4 which deeply and deliberately penetrated the Syrian airspace a few years ago.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  65. RobinG says:
    @annamaria

    Speech of the Chief of the Main Operational Directorate of the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces Lt.Gen. Sergei Rudskoy on provocative actions of the Turkish Air Force
    http://eng.mil.ru/en/news_page/country/more.htm?id=12066682%40egNews

    Five minute speech includes,
    “Now the General Staff is elaborating additional security measures for the Russian airbase.

    First: All the activities of the attack aviation will be carried out only under cover of fighter aircraft.

    Second: Air defence will be reinforced. For that purpose, the Moskva cruiser equipped with air defence system Fort analogous to the S-300 one will go to the shore zone of Latakia. Russian Defence Ministry warns that all the potentially dangerous targets will be destroyed.

    Third: Contacts with Turkey will be terminated at the military level.”

  66. Kiza says:
    @Kiza

    Ok, here is an update on the Western sewerage MSM channels.

    The MSM propagandists have gotten ahead of themselves. The Western power structure decided to dial down the temperature of the sewerage in its propaganda channels. Russia is not being blamed for the “violation” any more, all such articles have disappeared from online editions and have been replaced with “both sides are to blame”, “both sides should calm-down”.

    It is obvious that the Western power structure believes that the Russian leadership has not reached the bottom of its stupidity yet – there is still room to fool the Russians into a “Coalition for fighting ISIS”. It would be the Coalition of the Sponsors of Terrorism repackaged into the “Coalition for fighting ISIS”. Good luck Russia with that.

    Does Russia realize that all three Russian pilots (including one rescue helicopter pilot) were killed with US made guns, bullets and missiles (the anti-tank TOW missile against the rescue helicopter), supplied to the “moderate” head-choppers (Al Nusra/Qaeda “Turkmen”) directly by the US!!!!!!!

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  67. @L.K

    Secular Sunnis in an internal political arrangement contrasted to the reality of the sectarian nature of what’s actually happening on the ground is something you overlook. Looking forward, in the case of Assad’s removal, there is past example of reality; where are Saddam’s Sunni officers post ‘regime change’? Look no farther than ISIS. And that 70% of Syrians poll … where do you suppose it was conducted? Exterior to Assad’s sphere of control? I doubt it (and the expression ‘statistics don’t lie’ is probably the biggest lie since virgin birth.)

    • Replies: @L.K
  68. @Fran Macadam

    Concur, Fran. I suppose the culture has surely moved on from Christianity, the majority of us anyway. But Fran, I survey the culture of the United States that I joined the U.S. Navy from in 1976 and compare it to the culture of 2015 and I can assure you, my patriotic pangs have flown. We are beset with a culture very different and self-destructive to its own interest and the interests of 1/2 the population in favor of the other half. The land is worth defending, the children, certainly not the women who have named men monsters and the culture “Rape”. Such critters do not deserve defending, so I would not serve our armed services again.

    Maybe I took this attitude when it became a sin of the Patriarchy to hold a door open for a woman or offer a seat on the Metro to a lady, acts of chivalry, not chauvinism. Culture. When one’s culture begins to hate one, one tends to feel less fuzzy. As for the “social issues”, women and men and how they interact in the bedroom, that is all peripheral. But when the fighting/defensive arm of your culture (men) is beset with insult from within by the women of that culture we men are a little less warm and fuzzy about defending the womenfolk. Issues for another day, but perhaps instructive.

    On the street however, I would fight. When monsters with guns appear from no where and kill with impunity, someone had better be available to fight, the citizens themselves. Isreal could offer good examples. In the U.S., and in both cases in Paris recently, the police are mostly for mopping up the aftermath. Now, in America, I am armed. In Paris, maybe they should rethink the laws that make France a most draconian anti-gun society, a society where the Muslims are armed to a level surpassing the local police.

    Culture (including your land and cities) either is or is not worth defending and cultures, their ruling classes and their citizens had better make decisions quickly about what will be defended and what surrendered/tolerated. This does not end well.

    Cheers, Fran

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  69. @Jim Christian

    I was a staunch Cold Warrior who served on the civilian side of the industry/military collaboration through the Armed Forces Communications and Electronics Association. Once the Cold War ended, I was thoroughly disillusioned as the corporate side began selling advanced systems to totalitarian governments to make up for the wind down and the peace dividend. I feel a lot of us true believers have been betrayed by a corporate side that was never loyal to any principle other than maximum profit – to the detriment of most Americans.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  70. @Kiza

    Kiza,

    Russia surely realizes the sources of the weaponry. They will cope. In Iraq, our troops were blown up, our efforts ruined and wasted by the products of Russian and Iranian weaponry. It goes on to this day. Saddam’s weapons were surely consumed in short order, yet for ten years against our troops and all the years since, against each other after our departure, the weapons, explosives and detonators flow, the wars go on.

    Russia understands, we understand. Nothing personal, just business. And like every group of fools dipping their oar into the turmoil of Middle East warfare, we and they always think we will get away clean, our “goals” will be met without being drawn into the tar pit. Russia is merely the latest.

    The war for Russia is to prop up their client, Assad as a favor to Iran, Russia’s best customer for all the toys of war. But as for the “war” against ISIS, the war is not there for the West, certainly not on the ground. The war against ISIS is back home against an embedded enemy in our midst that strikes at the time and place of their own choosing. One can argue that on your own soil it is war, or it is a law enforcement issue, but the trouble for the West is on our own soil. It is not paranoia. They really are trying to kill us. And our President refusing to recognize the issue is not of assistance. But then, he never has, no surprise there.

    This does not end well. Actually, this will not end, ever.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Kiza
  71. @Karl

    The Israelis have been trying to create a wedge between Christian Palestinians and Muslim Palestinians , so not surprising they would try to entice Christians and make some outward signs of tolerance towards Christianity. Yet covertly the Israeli government does its best to hinder Christians. It just can’t be seen to do it openly because American evangelicals would start to question their support for Israel.

  72. @Fran Macadam

    Fran,

    Ah yes, Cold Warriors, simpler times. I was a carrier flight deck rat in an A-6 Intruder squadron aboard Nimitz 76-81. Fast planes, crashes, Russian trawlers, Iranian Hostage rescue that rescued no one, but that was Carter’s Navy and the beginning of my hatred of Islam and Iran. We were asking for big trouble letting them get away with that and Islam has delivered in spectacular fashion. At least we patrolled the Mediterranean then. Pummeling Syria would be a simpler issue with carriers in the Med off the Syrian Coast with heavy tactical air, 200 miles from their targets. If you control the skies, you eliminate misunderstandings of the untidy sort that occurred yesterday between Turkey and the Soviets, err, Russians. But you cannot control the skies when your air assets are in Saudi and Kuwait 1200 miles from the targets and theater in general. You need tactical air operating off carriers in close off the Mediterranean coast of Syria, period.

    Problem is, we don’t use our carriers for war anymore, they’re pier side offices for the employment of single mothers who refuse to go to sea and as you said, for arms manufacturers to enrich themselves. Look at the carrier-based F-35 program for evidence. Like our lady-sailors, we have spent billions on the F-35 for a useless, non-operating, non-deployable resource. Four carriers in Norfolk and their associated squadrons in Oceana, Virginia Naval Air Station and even with tactical air from carriers so badly needed at this juncture, they are unavailable, not mission capable. The problem is, what to do with the children of the single mothers that make up the crew in Naval Aviation today? They won’t deploy, they will not go aboard if the ship is leaving.

    What serious person supports this? Our military is a jobs program for single mothers and wealthy arms manufacturers. We could easily cut up half our carriers, because why support these ships when they cannot be used? But then, how would we support the single mothers of Naval Air? Major problem and only you and I, here, are discussing it. No one mentions the juxtaposition of heavy-presence carrier-based tactical air in-close to the theater vs the present strategy of long-range stray bombing runs with no overall control of the theater. Carriers could solve all this if only they could put to sea. The Naval Air Emperor wears no clothes and there is no one noticing.

    Good Day, Fran. I concur, but these are sensitive issues and discussed at pay grades far higher than ours. But here at the grass roots, people are thinking and discussing and this is good. Here’s hoping some of it catches an influential eye somehow. An excellent subject for Mr. Trump to take up. “President Obama, where are the carriers”? At least force them to admit the truth of Naval Aviation that exists today.

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  73. Jason Liu says:

    How many westerners does ISIS kill per year?

    In the context of civilization vs civilization, the West vs Islam may be worth discussing. But if that were the case, then there’s no reason why the discussion should be limited to terrorism.

    Barring that, most of the west’s problems are internal.

  74. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    “Nothing personal, just business.”
    Actually, the whole “War on Terror” (14 years and ticking) has been about getting personal. See Bush’ wet kisses with Saudi princes and see the overwhelming presence of Zionists (Israel-firsters) among the US decision-makers and main propagandists.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  75. Kiza says:
    @Jim Christian

    Jim, you better talk with your Fran, she is your match. I am not tolerant of your BS: the Russians supplied weapons to the Iraqi resistance????

    In Iraq, our troops were blown up, our efforts ruined and wasted by the products of Russian and Iranian weaponry.

    I wish. Just another exceptionally brainwashed vet Murican with straw instead of a brain! If you had any brains you would have never joined the US military to be a human killer drone. What the hell are you blabbering about?

    The war for Russia is to prop up their client, Assad as a favor to Iran, Russia’s best customer for all the toys of war.

    You are criticizing Russia for selling weapons to Iran from the US, the biggest seller or weapons in the World??? The seller of weapons to the most vile regimes in the World, such as the Saudi!?
    I will ignore your BS in the future, go play with yourself.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @schmenz
  76. @Jim Christian

    The President himself has invoked “beyond my pay grade” as an excuse for why the buck doesn’t stop at his desk. I no longer believe in the benign world policeman theory – it’s all about what policies the donorists buy from the politicians and then have a kind of Pinkerton mob deployed as enforcers. All those years when we denied the obvious, simply because it was the calumny of the enemy, that there is such a thing as American imperialism. That’s where the bucks end up.

    None of it is in service to the security of our people or to spread democracy abroad. Empire undermines all our old liberties. Whatever has been lately fought for, is in no way preserving liberty at home. Invade the world – invite the world, the inevitable degradation of every empire that ever was – quickly the enemy of the domestic tranquility necessary for living in peace and freedom. But our leaders are all clueless now, addled in their rainbow light shows as much as they are in their pre-emptive and counterproductive military strategies. I’m afraid that it is well beyond all their paygrades.

    • Replies: @Bill Jones
  77. @annamaria

    Well, between the (relatively) gentlemanly agreements between men of honor during the Cold War, arrangements between Russian Air and trawlers and U.S. Navy carriers, agreements and protocols between the Soviets and Americans in the air war over Vietnam in which both sides lost pilots and planes by the hand of the other. Also, the cat and mouse games under the ocean surface between submarine forces, some of which resulted in the loss of ships and crews, even those were gentlemen bumping each other, nothing personal. These arrangements, agreements and protocols prevented skirmishes and contact from erupting into a nuclear war. Nothing personal, keep your cool. And so they did.

    As for Islam, AnnaMarina, I could not concur more heartily. Islam vs the West is a dirty business. We’re searching for a gentleman’s agreement, some honor, some way not to have to kill them all, but there is no honor under Islam. Iraq is a good example. When they don’t have Americans to murder, they kill each other. Now, they have Soviets in place to kill. I fully expect Soviet soldiers to start being killed via the IEDs and bullets in the back that menaced our troops, courtesy of their new “allies”, the Syrians. There is no honor, there is no give and take. It’s all certified under the Koran, including rape of children. The Muslim culture is tailor-built to do murder, it is savage and the only way to deal with it is to sink to their level. Sooner or later, it’s us or it’s them. The sooner we own up to this truth, the sooner we get on with what needs to be done.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  78. Kiza says:

    There are two opposite explanations for this shoot-down of a Russian bomber by the Turkish fighter jets:
    1) a remaining anti-Erdogan faction in the Turkish military wanted to challenge Erdogan’s hold on power by involving him into a fight with Russia,
    2) Erdogan’s son is the key oil smuggling player on the Turkish side and this is a revenge for Russia destroying recently some 1000 oil smuggling trucks destined for Turkey.
    The Russian bombers should have never come close to the Turkish or Israeli border without fighter jet escort, an agreement or not. But, it appears that Putin actually believed in his agreement with the US and let bombers fly without escort. The US did not shoot-down Russian bombers it sicked Turkey to do so.
    But,
    1) The Russian bomber jet was shot-down by a fighter jet and missile supplied to Turkey by the US.
    2) Two Russian pilots paid with their lives. One of the bomber pilots died from the guns and bullets supplied by the US to Syrian terrorists.
    3) The rescue helicopter pilot died from a US made missile supplied to the “moderate” head-choppers of Syria.

    US, US, US, always US (on behalf of Israel).

    But could anyone even imagine Turkey challenging Russia without asking Washington for permission first? Yet, it appears from Obama’s slightly confused first reaction that he was not the one who approved the shoot-down. Obviously, the Turks knew who runs the show in Washington and asked the right people for permission (the neocons and their CIA).

    BTW, the companies buying Syrian and Iraqi oil smuggled by ISIS to Erdogan’s son in Turkey are US and EU oil companies, for example Glencore, Vitol, Trafigura, Nobel, Mercuria and so on.

    So, these countries are now going to repackage themselves from a Coalition of the Sponsor of Terrorism into an Anti-ISIS Coalition? And get Russia involved in their club of exceptional nations?

  79. Who is this “We”?

  80. L.K says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Well Thomas, fact of the matter is that the vast majority of displaced persons in Syria have moved NOT abroad, but to government held areas, including provinces such as Lattakia and Tartous.
    In Aleppo, even “rebel” commanders admitted long ago that most people hated them and supported the government.
    The Guardian’s Martin Chulov visiting terrorist occupied eastern Aleppo, wrote:
    “Those who remain in eastern Aleppo, roughly 40,000 from a prewar population estimated at about a million, have been without electricity or running water for more than a year.”

    Many of these are the terrorists(“rebels”) families. What about the government held parts of Aleppo?
    A recent Reuters report gives the number of inhabitants there:
    “The road is the army’s supply route to government-held western parts of Aleppo, home to around 2 million people.”

    Aleppo is massively Sunni. So is Damascus and most of the other government held areas.

    It is actually a matter of common sense to see that if the vast majority of Syrias sunnis had joined the many tens of thousands of foreign fighters also trying to overthrow the government, all backed by a logistical/training effort by powerful countries, incl usa, which dwarf even what zusa engineered against the soviets in Afghanistan in the 80s, the Syrian government and State would have long been destroyed.

    You & others might benefit from reading former US marine Brad Hoff’s experiences in Syria:

    A Marine in Syria
    Silhouettes of Beauty and Coexistence before the Devastation
    https://medium.com/news-politics/a-marine-in-syria-d06ff67c203c#.cw7lkv540

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  81. @Kiza

    Yes, I will criticize Russian arms dealers for selling to Iraq and our enemies there, even after Saddam, an enormous arms store.

    Where would you imagine Migs, T-72 Tanks, AK-47 rifles AA, and SAM-2 Soviet anti-air missiles and billions of rounds of ammunition come from? Rocket-Propelled grenades, all Russian in origin. Military-Grade plastic explosives and Russian triggers. All from Russian Arms dealers operating under the authority of the Soviet leftover arms industry with permission of present-day government. Iraq was Russian-armed from the ground up. Did Putin drive the trucks with weapons? I suspect not, but I assure you, Mr. Putin has been generous to his own pockets over the years from arms sales, as he is now to Iran. As he now equips Syria with SA-300 Anti-Air SAMs and a long list of other weapons.

    Now, you may call my head a straw-bin if you wish Sir, you may ignore my unpleasant truths. But one must look at your record of senseless insult left behind here and wonder but one thing: For whom do you work that you find such offense at simple truth?

    Good Day to you, Sir.

    • Replies: @voicum
  82. Rurik says:
    @Karl

    West Golan became Israeli territory proper – two generations ago.

    well I guess that’s an improvement on claiming it was given to you two thousand years ago

    but it’s funny to see how that works. You just tell yourself that something you covet is yours and then pretend that everyone else is supposed to agree, especially the people who’re the rightful owners, huh?

    Golani Druze have been VERY careful to not become any serious nuisance to the IDF.

    how careful would they be if my country decided to stop funding and providing advanced military equipment and most important of all, decided to pull support for Israel’s genocidal gangsterism?

    How many children would the brave IDF shoot with high powered rifles then ..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUibXSgILv0

    hunkered down on rooftops were it not for the ‘special relationship’ Israel has with the US?

    hmm

    Whereas with your Israeli passpoft, you can do exciting things like make off-the-books money in kiosks in American malls, fuck American mall-rat sluts, etc.

    quite a glimpse into the kind of brave and charming people were giving billions to and fighting their wars for

    Israeli law allows the town councils of villages & small townships to VOTE on who may buy property there-in.

    I guess that’s what they call fair housing in Israel. Sort of gives new meaning to the phrase ‘the only democracy in the Middle East, eh?

    so this is why we’re demanding the removal of Assad. So guys like this and his buddies in Israel can take possession of land that doesn’t and never belonged to them. Our entire western “civilization” is willing to slaughter untold hundreds of thousands or even millions, destroying entire countries and creating massive refugee catastrophes that are destabilizing the entire western world and imposing hell on earth in places like Libya and Iraq and now Syria, all so guys like this and Bibi can take possession of some land with oil under it.

    Reminds me of when Madeleine Albright said the deaths due to lack of medicine of 5,000,000 Iraqi children was “worth it”

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  83. @Qasim

    If proof were needed of Arab intellectual inferiority, their wholesale buying of the lies of Britain in WWI pretty much does it.

  84. @L.K

    You might pay closer attention to parties with no vested interest in manipulating the data and problems with methodologies:

    IDMC’s figure is based on figures provided by the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA), whose estimated that at 7.6 million people were internally displaced inside Syria, half of them children, as of May 2015 (OCHA, June 2015). OCHA’s estimates are based on information gathered from the Syrian authorities, in particular the Syrian Red Crescent, Ministry of Social Affairs and Labour, the Ministry of Agriculture and Agrarian reform, the Ministry of Local Administration, as well as various UN agencies such as UNRWA, UNHCR, and WFP. In opposition controlled areas OCHA has had to also rely on NGOs active in these areas and local authorities. This means that the data collection has been politically tainted by reliance on parties to the conflict that have themselves played a central role in causing displacement. Furthermore, sources relied upon use different methodologies to estimate the number of IDPs in various locations

    Monitoring of internal displacement in Syria has been seriously hampered by the volatility of the frontlines and the intensity of the conflict. The scale and nature of displacement have been additional challenges: not only have they significantly affected all governorates of Syria, but people have also been displaced multiple times over the past three years. Data gathering has also been consistently complicated by the authorities’ denial of access to certain areas, including besieged cities, and the fact that there are hard-to-reach areas under the control of armed opposition groups. Estimates do not include secondary movements nor returns. Disaggregated data is unavailable.

    IDP estimates have been produced by OCHA for each annual SHARP and some of their mid-year review. These figures were not projections, but a snapshot of the situation in the months leading up to their release. In December 2013, OCHA estimated the number of IDPs in Syria at 6.5 million, and the figure remained unchanged for eight months before actually dropping to 6.45 million in July 2014 (SHARP). While this decrease can be partly explained by the constant flow of Syrian seeking refuge abroad, during the same period fighting, notably around Aleppo had displaced an additional 1.4 million (SNAP). Despite – but possibly because of – the immense scale of internal displacement, the task of confirming IDP figures in the midst of a civil war continues to be a serious challenge. Four years into the conflict, the picture of displacement remains patchy

    http://www.internal-displacement.org/middle-east-and-north-africa/syria/figures-analysis

    As well the sectarian nature of the conflict:

    Before rushing to judgment, one must note that the actions of the pro-regime forces, however offensive, are typically driven by fear rather than by bloodlust. These pro-government factions are collections of Alawites, Christians, and other minority groups, who believe correctly that a Sunni takeover would lead to massacre, exile, and abuse for their respective peoples. As longtime Western liaison to the Assad regime, Trinity University Professor David Lesch explained to the HPR, “the shabbiha is motivated by survival, by the belief that if the Sunnis come to power, they’d be wiped out. Unfortunately, this fear is not unfounded… this is a cycle that’s been repeated throughout Middle Eastern history.”

    After half a century of Alawite domination, the Sunni majority is also driven by fear of marginalization and abuse. Thus, what political scientists call an “ethnic security dilemma” has now taken hold of Syrian society, as multiple groups attempt to destroy one another in a self-defeating, but self-perpetuating effort to ensure their own security.

    Confounding Western moral stereotypes, the Christian component of these pro-regime forces is as much a party to the security dilemma as any other actor. Though the group had been largely insulated from the pernicious elements of Syrian society by the relatively secular Assad regime, 2.1 million Christians now find themselves among the victims of lurid Sunni violence. The Syrian Orthodox Church for instance has described an “ongoing ethnic cleansing” against Christians by the Free Syrian Army, and has claimed that Islamists of the al-Faruq brigade have expelled 90 percent of Christians from Homs, confiscating their possessions in the process.

    http://www.iop.harvard.edu/gangs-syria

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @RobinG
  85. Rurik says:
    @annamaria

    The proud nation has been reduced to a political brothel.

    the eye or Mordor

    either the world’s people will find a way to end the Fed

    or the future will be an Orwellian nightmare

    it’s really that simple

  86. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Whatever happened to Al-Qaeda? They were blamed for the 9-11 attack and were the declared reason for was called the ‘war on terror’. They were worked into every conceivable news report, even ones that were on unrelated subjects. Now all one hears anything about is IS. Did AQ join IS, did they just evaporate, are they now our ‘moderate’ allies, what? There seems to be a confusing welter of groups all over, names that pop up and then disappear. Is it all really IS?

  87. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    [How many children would the brave IDF shoot with high powered rifles then ……]

    You are an idiot or a paid liar. That video is a fake.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  88. @anonymous

    IS splintered from Al Qaida and took on a life of its own. Al Qaida in Syria is the al-Nusra front that David Petraeus recently suggested assisting in its fight with IS. The so-called ‘Free Syrian Army’ (the USA darling) coordinates with a range of Salafist groups and in fact seems more of a front to give jihadis ‘moderate’ political cover than anything else. You should find this follows an interesting read:

    http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syria-moderate-rebels-20151012-story.html

  89. annamaria says:
    @anonymous

    “Did AQ join IS, did they just evaporate, are they now our ‘moderate’ allies, what?”
    The latter:
    “U.S.-backed Syrian rebels gave gear to al-Qaeda group” http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/09/26/us-backed-rebels-give-arms-al-qaeda-group/72831840/
    “Should US Ally with Al Qaeda in Syria?” https://consortiumnews.com/2015/10/01/should-us-ally-with-al-qaeda-in-syria/
    “Israel Tempted to ally with Al-Qaeda in Syria” http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/years-israel-tempted.html
    “Wall Street Journal: Israel Caught Red-handed Aiding al-Qaeda in Syria” http://www.globalresearch.ca/israeli-army-admits-aiding-al-qaeda-in-syria/5441122

  90. @anonymous

    David Petraeus is their cheerleader in Syria: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/08/31/petraeus-use-al-qaeda-fighters-to-beat-isis.html?via=twitter_page

    Qatar is trying to re-brand them as moderates by having Al Nusra dissociate itself from the parent organization: http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/03/04/uk-mideast-crisis-nusra-insight-idUKKBN0M00G620150304

    The US likes to keep the term “terrorist” vague so it can bomb whoever it pleases in the 3rd world.

    • Replies: @Orville H. Larson
    , @Kiza
  91. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    “The Muslim culture is tailor-built to do murder, it is savage and the only way to deal with it is to sink to their level. Sooner or later, it’s us or it’s them. The sooner we own up to this truth, the sooner we get on with what needs to be done.”

    Then leave “them” alone and stop wet-kissing the Saudis and to arm Qatar (and other “moderates” affiliated with Al Qaida), and enough already of improving the Halliburton base line. Perhaps you are not aware, but your characterization of all Muslims as savages fits perfectly the PNAC agenda.
    Some short summaries of the he Project for the New American Century that has been implemented on the US dime and limb:
    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2013/01/17/911-pnac-perps-still-whining-for-us-to-fight-israels-wars/ “9/11 PNAC perps still whining for US to fight Israel’s wars”
    http://www.oldamericancentury.org/pnac.htm
    “Of the twenty-five people who signed the PNAC’s founding statement of principles, ten went on to serve in the administration of U.S. President George W. Bush, including Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and Paul Wolfowitz. It [PNAC] was replaced by new think-tank Foreign Policy Initiative, co-founded by Kristol and Kagan in 2009.” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century

    “We’re searching for a gentleman’s agreement…” It is highly doubtful that the Krystol’ and Kagan’ families (as well as Cheney’, Feith’, and Wolfowitz’) include any gentlemen.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  92. @Fran Macadam

    ” spread democracy abroad.”

    What sort of moron believes that is a legitimate function of the US government?

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  93. @Johnny F. Ive

    “The US likes to keep the term “terrorist” vague so it can bomb whoever it pleases in the 3rd world.”

    An excellent point.

  94. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    what’s fake about it?

    and what’s the big deal?

    the brave IDF shoot children playing all the time

    http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/4-palestinian-kids-killed-in-front-of-reporters.html

    look at these terrorists existentially threatening the brave IDF !

    who can blame the courageous IDF who use generously supplied American munitions to protect themselves from these dangerous terrorists

    or maybe these boys were all human shields! Yea, that’s it. They were human shields and it’s the terrorists fault who forced the lion-hearted and valiant IDF soldiers to kill them from a safe distance.

    • Replies: @alexander
  95. @annamaria

    Annamarina,

    I was referring to military courtesies by military men, extended to other military men. Haliburton, Lockheed, that whole crew, they direct all in the end. And, the Saudis do as they do, as they’re told.

    But this situation with Islam does not end well. It has nothing to do with tender sensibilities such as “Not All Muslims Are Like That”. Not all are, but the ones that aren’t like that fully support those that ARE like that. Hence, they need to go. As I’ve always said, our parents of the WW2 generation would have cleaned up Islam and put them right back in the sandbox. They would have interned them, taken their property, caged them and deported them. And it would have been over in say, a year, tops. That’s what happened to folks that attacked America back then. This is what Muslims do to outsiders in their lands, by my measure, now that we know what they are, that’s exactly what we owe them. Showing them love and consideration isn’t returning same from them.

    But we’re sensitive. Well, how’s sensitive working? It isn’t. We get them out of our societies post-haste or we lose. Now you can say we can’t do that, but then I come right back and say if you do not, they will own the European Continent sooner, rather than later. Islam is not sensitive, they’re a savage rape culture, a real one. They don’t care about murdering our women and children, I suggest we not worry about theirs. It’s fine to say we can’t take care of this when in fact we can, but all I can say is, if we don’t, they win. If you’re content to hand everything over, just say so. Not you, necessarily, but anyone that pulls the culturally-sensitive thing. We should demonstrate the same savagery toward Islam that Islam extends to us.

    The piano player should have started with, Imagine, no womens rights, it’s easy to do. Islamic victory over Europe means the end of science, women’s rights, law, property, pretty much everything. Think of that.

    Good Day.

  96. Kiza says:
    @Johnny F. Ive

    The point is that, according to the US and Zio definition, a terrorist is anyone who shoots at US or Israeli soldiers. In the MSM, every now and then some US, British or Israeli general calls guerrilla opponents of his soldiers terrorists just because they shot back. Thus, the US, British and Israeli soldiers have been terrorized. The implication is that Usrael soldiers wet their pants out of terror when a guerrilla fighter shoots back at them.

    Thus the new definition, terrorists are not those who terrorize civilians, such as the Paris attack, then anyone who challenges the US/British/Israeli interests.

  97. schmenz says:
    @Kiza

    Kiza,

    As Jim says, he is a former military man. That is a mindset that is hard to crawl out from under. It explains why he sees the picture in black and white, good guy vs bad guy mode. America is always the good guy, the exceptional nation, the city shining on a hill, etc.

    Note this instructive comment from Jim:

    “…there is no honor under Islam. Iraq is a good example. When they don’t have Americans to murder, they kill each other. Now, they have Soviets in place to kill. I fully expect Soviet soldiers to start being killed via the IEDs and bullets in the back that menaced our troops, courtesy of their new “allies”, the Syrians.”

    How does one go about explaining to Jim that the Russians aren’t Soviet anymore? How does one explain to him that there are different sects in Islam? You see there the problem with the typical military mindset. Careful logical thought has been all but beaten out of them – not all, to be sure. But far too many.

    There are many former military in my own family and they refuse to look at the issues clearly as well. Rational argument does not work, believe me.

    • Replies: @Kiza
    , @Jim Christian
  98. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian

    We should demonstrate the same savagery toward Islam that Islam extends to us.

    I think you have things backwards. Thank goodness the Muslims haven’t demonstrated a fraction of the savagery towards us that we (due to the Lobby) have extended to them.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @Avery
  99. @geokat62

    Yes, you’re right, I’ve got it backwards. Of course. Thank goodness for those benevolent Muslims. Whatever could I have been thinking? Caliphates are good. The Koran is gentle and peaceful. ISIS is just a bunch of crazy kids, they don’t really MEAN anything. We, the West, we’re the bad ones.

    Good evening, Geokat. Enjoy the liberal Kool-Aid.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @geokat62
    , @annamaria
  100. Kiza says:
    @schmenz

    Dear schmenz,

    I wasted time before, trying to educate one of those brainwashed US drones with only minimal signs of intelligence and almost no knowledge except a few clichés she (it was a female marine) had been fed by her Usrael regime. This is how I learned that the effort is futile and not to waste my time any more trying to enlighten those. Those creatures are drones programmed to kill or be killed and they are good at it. Trying to have opinions for them is like fish being out of water, their comfort zone is the zone of implanted clichés.

    Now, as soon as I read a regime implanted cliché, I just tell them to go play with themselves.

    Not every ex-US military is a brainwashed moron, rarely some exceptionally intelligent and knowledgeable people wonder in and and out the organization and come here to comment. The best example is Mr Ronald Thomas West. Therefore, the intelligence of the US military (and most other militaries) is a low mean Bell Curve with some exceptional outliers.

    Rational argument does not work, believe me.

    The comments and opinions of the brainless and brainwashed morons deserve no discussion.

  101. alexander says:
    @Rurik

    Dear Rurik,

    I believe the number is 20 %…..it might be 25……but I think it is closer to 20%.

    Twenty percent of what you may ask ?

    Twenty percent is the “tolerable allowance”‘ of Palestinians, as a percentage of the total demographic that” Greater Israel’”will probably accept within its borders from the “river to the sea.’

    I think that there are many Israelis who would prefer ten percent( and an increasingly surprising amount who genuinely aspire to Zero percent.)

    What does that mean , though, 20% ?

    It means that for” Greater Israel” to retain an acceptable 80% Jewish majority within “all” the lands from the river to the sea……

    they will have to exterminate over four million Palestinians to achieve a threshold demographic that is well within their acceptable ” minority” limit.

    So your “snipers from the rooftop liquidating Palestinian kids” falls well within the larger framework goals of Greater Israel,….or whats known today, in growing parlance’s of influence, as “Judea and Samaria.”

    Don’t get me wrong, Israel is working all the other angles too….trying to cut deals with Jordan and Egypt….offering “one time lump sum payments ” to various refugee groups if they forfeit their right of return…..etc…etc…they are working it….they are….

    and it is an” ever evolving dynamic”….

    But the bottom line…..they really do not want much more than two million Palestinians living in what they plan as Greater Israel.

    So there is going to be a lot of killing going on…. a lot.

    There are nearly four million Palestinians, who, if they seek to retain their basic human right to return to the homes they (or their families) were forced out of, are targeted for extermination…

    that means Four million designated “terrorists” whose only “real” crime was not being born “Jewish”.

    Their very “living” ….is a” terrorist act.”

    That’s why the video is not a fake, because it makes too much sense within the “greater plan”, for it not to be…

    Does that ring true for you Rurik …. However tragic it might be ?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  102. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Jim Christian

    Generally, agree. Especially the last paragraph.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  103. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian

    Hi Jim,

    We, the West, we’re the bad ones.

    what west?

    where is the West?!

    the countries of the former, putative West were known for one thing more than any other, and that is The Rule of Law.

    it’s what defined us and made us great. It’s what gave people opportunity and allowed us to create enlightened cultural renaissances and industrial revolutions that were the envy of the world. We created the pinnacle of human achievement that is human freedom by demanding that monarchs respect the rule of law and the Magna Carta. Remember that?

    but all of that is gone now Jim. We cravenly tossed it all away. We allowed political scoundrels and liars and criminals to cow us into obedient fear. We went looking for monsters to destroy and gave up the rule of law and our freedoms here at home. We became that sniveling coward that Thomas Paine spoke of

    “If ye love wealth better than liberty,
    the tranquility of servitude
    better than the animating contest of freedom,
    go home from us in peace.
    We ask not your counsels or your arms.
    Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
    May your chains set lightly upon you,
    and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen.”

    After 911 we allowed our leaders to treat us like dogs. And we licked their hand, hoping that they would protect us and keep us safe from the ‘terrorists’. We stopped being Western men and became Zio-worms. Going around bombing and destroying country after country that had nothing to do with 911 or anything else. In so doing, we earned the righteous hatred of the Muslim world. They didn’t come here Jim, we went over there. Even if you believe the absurdity that it was Osama and his nineteen henchmen that perpetrated that attack, they were all Saudis Jim. We haven’t done anything to Saudi Arabia except give them wet kisses (as one of the posters here pointed out), or had our leader bow down to them like the dogs that America and the west has become.

    I’m reminded of the words of B. Franklin: “Those who give up their liberty for more security neither deserve liberty nor security”.

    That’s us Jim. That’s what’s become of the western man. A gutless, dishonest coward and mass-murderer who bombs innocents to assuage his fear. A piss-stained people who’ve given away a freedom that was earned in blood and bequeathed by a people infinitely better than the ones who that gift was lavished upon, only to have it tossed away as too inconvenient to carry. Better a cage of lies than the harsh and bitter struggle for truth that freedom requires as its price.

    So, as the Muslims and everyone else pours in to fill the streets and wombs and cafes and buildings of a once noble and thriving civilization who lost its soul and its nerve, we can only stand by and watch with a wry sense of amazement at the feeding frenzy.

    A people without the guts or integrity to demand that their greatest gift and most treasured possession, The Rule of Law not be tossed away because they’re scared and don’t want to get hurt, don’t deserve to pass on their genes Jim. That’s just the way things are and have always been.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
    , @Sam Shama
  104. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,
    How is this for a start… short and sweet.

    TEXT OF H.R. 4108 — To prohibit the use of funds for the provision of assistance to Syrian opposition groups and individuals.

    IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

    November 19, 2015

    Ms. GABBARD (for herself and Mr. AUSTIN SCOTT of Georgia) introduced the following bill; which was referred to the Committee on Armed Services, and in addition to the Select Committee on Intelligence (Permanent Select) and Foreign Affairs, for a period to be subsequently determined by the Speaker, in each case for consideration of such provisions as fall within the jurisdiction of the committee concerned

    A BILL

    To prohibit the use of funds for the provision of assistance to Syrian opposition groups and individuals.

    Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

    SECTION 1. PROHIBITION ON PROVISION OF ASSISTANCE TO SYRIAN OPPOSITION GROUPS AND INDIVIDUALS.

    Notwithstanding any other provision of law, funds available to the Central Intelligence Agency, the Department of Defense, or any other agency or entity of the United States involved in intelligence activities, or to the National Security Council or its staff may not be obligated or expended to provide assistance, including training, equipment, supplies, stipends, construction of training and associated facilities, and sustainment, to any element of the Syrian opposition or to any other Syrian group or individual seeking to overthrow the government of the Syrian Arab Republic, unless, after the date of the enactment of this Act, funds are specifically authorized to be appropriated and appropriated by law for such purpose.

    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/z?c114:H.R.4108:

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  105. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian

    Enjoy the liberal Kool-Aid.

    Speaking of Kool-Aid, ever since 9/11, how many Muslims are the AngloZionists responsible for killing through their neocon policy of remaking the ME, and how many westerners have the Muslims killed through “terrorist” attacks?

    Let’s see if you can answer that question, truthfully.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  106. Avery says:
    @geokat62

    {Thank goodness the Muslims haven’t demonstrated a fraction of the savagery towards us that we (due to the Lobby) have extended to them.}

    geokat62 :
    which Muslims are you talking about ?
    what era: modern times, historically, what ?
    and who is “we”: Americans, Europeans, the West, Christians ?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  107. @schmenz

    Schmenz,

    We military men see things in Black and White, day and night, right and wrong. That’s how you stay alive, in combat and on my beloved flight decks. Do wrong, tolerate wrong, get dead. Rules written in blood, men understand these things better than do women.

    These issues aren’t shades of gray, pardon the pun. Sure, SOME Muslims and SOME sects and SOME individuals aren’t enabling their brothers to blow us up. But which ones? When? How will they do it? We don’t have the luxury of finding out. By the time we find out, thousands are dead.

    The notions and protests to my solution to the problem are the shades of gray that the French are suffering as we speak. We either get these folks out of our societies wholesale, lock stock and barrel, or we will lose our societies to them. That includes women’s rights, science, any other religion, and a million other things we permit and they do not. Care to guess how long the alphabet soup of sexual depravity in the West will last under Sharia Law?

    In short, Muslims are in this fight for keeps. These people do not mean to lose. And populations that maintain sympathetic shades of gray lose to Islam. It’s all there to see, but seeing is disturbing. I understand, but because we are disturbed by what must be done doesn’t remove the necessity.

    Choose your sensitivities over survival, Islam is most grateful, I assure you.

    Good evening.

  108. @Andrei Martyanov

    We simply don’t have the luxury of sympathy. These are not sympathetic folk, Muslims.

    Good evening.

  109. Rurik says:
    @alexander

    Does that ring true for you Rurik …. However tragic it might be ?

    Oh yes alexander, indeed it does

    in fact it is due to this agenda of greater Zion that I believe my country has been engaged in illegal wars of aggression on Israel’s neighbors since before even this century began.

    I’m quite well aware of the agenda and how it manifests in the real world. It’s why there is such terrible strife right now in Syria. It’s why America and the “Master-Blaster” (as I see it ; )

    occupied west are sticking pointed sticks into the Russian bear.

    It’s why our capital in DC is a den of snakes and liars and traitors to this country and its people. Because they don’t honor the Constitution but rather serve Israel as its boot-licking rabid dog. That’s brutally obvious for even the most dim of the populace today.

    But I don’t believe those brave soldiers are shooting those boys to reduce their numbers. I suspect that the reason they take pot shots like that are for the fun of it and to induce a kind of all pervasive terror in the Palestinian population. It makes them feel potent and virile to see the people live in terror of them, the big bad IDF and men like Bibi, who want to be seen as scary and big and macho. It’s all part of their psychological inner narrative, that they’re like a modern day David and are serving out their vengeful god’s wrath to the Philistines and Canaanites. I suppose it’s like what the brown-shirts felt as they beat up Jewish shop-keeps and tormented Jewish girls on the streets.

    Yes, it all rings all too true

  110. Sam Shama says:
    @Jim Christian

    Mr Christian Sir,
    I have been reading this site for some time now and I think you are doing a favor to some of these characters here. They have no clue about what Islam is like and how they value life in the middle east. I did two tours (Afghanistan) and my brother is active duty now in the Marines. Despite our problems in these United States we still remain the freest country. Given half a chance all the muslims would run to the U.S., but they would create hell here. I grew up in a tolerant family that loves this country (4 generations in the USAF) and if there is one thing our dad taught us is love the country, warts and all. So I can’t stand these characters bad-mouthing the U.S. and not a clue about the enemy.

    Thank you for your service

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  111. @geokat62

    Kat,

    None of that matters. It just doesn’t matter. We didn’t kill enough because still, they kill us. What happened in the past is in the past. What matters is going forward, which is the more important society. We must pick one. Bromides, sensitivities and excuses are smokescreens. Kat, you have to pick one. Western society or Islamic Caliphate. That is your choice, there will be no coexistence. You must pick one. They have.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  112. geokat62 says:
    @Avery

    See response #108 above for context.

  113. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    “ISIS is just a bunch of crazy kids…”
    Look who is the ISIS daddy. There is even a known birthday for the “bunch.” By the way, it is curious how carefully Jim Christian has been avoiding any mention of PNAC and Yinon Plan in relation to the current Middle East madness. Nobody wants to invite ISIS (even the “moderate” ones) to the US. Yet everybody understands the origin of ISIS: its birthday followed the benevolent Christians’ coming to the Middle East with the superior weaponry. “Democracy on the march,” Condi Rice style. Approved by Mr. Cheney (the five-draft-deferments guy).

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  114. @Rurik

    You’re right. Western civilization, all the scoundrels, may Islam win out and wipe out the murderous capitalists.

    Hey, it’s a choice.

  115. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Hey Robin,

    I like it very much. Concrete action is what we need. [clearly you have the skills to draw up proposed Bills for congressional review and vote] . Let’s keep thinking and putting it up in front of people.

    cheers

    • Replies: @RobinG
  116. @Sam Shama

    Diana,

    The characters bad-mouthing America haven’t the imagination to consider life under a caliphate. They need to read up on the new “Islamic “patriarchy tormenting women on the streets of Sweden. Islam is a true rape culture, it breeds at a rate of 3:1 over Western/feminist women and it is a culture on the move. Liberals that defend Islam are like the old saying, “A liberal is a Conservative than hasn’t been mugged yet”.

    Islam stops being tolerable when you have experienced the intolerance up close and personal. At that point, you want none of it in your neighborhood. It has to be experienced to be despised, again, if you have insufficient empathy for those in the intolerant grip. It always amazed me the number of Western, first-world women that stick up for Islam. It makes me wonder if they long for a day when men were strong, dominant and made all the decisions for women. Well, that day is coming and these particular men, Islamics, will have no use for Third-Wave feminist doctrine.

    Nuff said, except thanks also for your service. Yours was considerably more harrowing than mine, except for a couple of crashes and fires on those carrier decks. Shit happens fast in that bizz, especially at night. It happens fast always if it’s bad, eh? Happy Thanksgiving and Merry Christmas (yeah, Anti-Christians, I said it), best of luck to you and yours, Marine.

    Good Evening.

  117. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    What are you talking about? UBL did not blow up our city on 9/11? You must be on drugs. Let me give you a quote which my grandpa used to say. (It is so true today about the muslim enemy)

    ‘Those who are the slowest to arm are going to find the quickest path to enjoy the bounties of heaven’

    You don’t sound like you ever served your country in uniform. Did you?

    • Replies: @alexander
    , @L.K
  118. KA says:

    “If, in this context, defeating the Islamic State means restoring to power Mr. Assad in Syria and Iran’s puppets in Iraq, that outcome is neither feasible nor desirable. Rather than striving to recreate the post-World War I map, Washington should recognize the new geopolitics. The best alternative to the Islamic State in northeastern Syria and western Iraq is a new, independent Sunni state

    This “Sunni-stan” has economic potential as an oil producer (subject to negotiation with the Kurds, to be sure), and could be a bulwark against both Mr. Assad and Iran-allied Baghdad.

    ake no mistake, this new Sunni state’s government is unlikely to be a Jeffersonian democracy for many years. But this is a region where alternatives to secular military or semi-authoritarian governments are scarce. Security and stability are sufficient ambitions”

    John Bolton in NYT
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/opinion/john-bolton-to-defeat-isis-create-a-sunni-state.html?_r=0

    Bolton knows what he is talking and what game plan he is referencing to. This has been an active ongoing plan from the days of the temporary setbacks of the NeoCons in Lebanon and Syria in around 2003 onwards(November 18, 2005
    Faking the Case Against Syria

    by
    by TRISH SCHUH http://www.counterpunch.org/2005/11/18/faking-the-case-against-syria/

    . I like his yearnings for “security and stability”

    From ZEROHEDGE

    “…there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist Principality in eastern Syria (Hasaka and Der Zor), and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want, in order to isolate the Syrian regime, which is considered the strategic depth of the Shia expansion (Iraq and Iran).”

    in a leaked diplomatic cable sent in 2006 by acting Deputy Chief of Mission in Syria William Roebuck which contained the following “advice” on how to go about destabilizing the Assad government:

    PLAY ON SUNNI FEARS OF IRANIAN INFLUENCE: …..”

    For Russia’s part, Putin, Lavrov, and Maria Zarakhova contend that the US is deliberately pursuing a policy designed not to destroy the group, but merely to contain it. …

    but The New York Times is out claiming that according to current and former officials who spoke on the condition of anonymity, US Central Command may have been involved in a year long effort to obscure the fact that America’s strategy to combat ISIS simply was not effective

    As The Times puts it, “at the least, the prospect that senior officials intentionally skewed intelligence conclusions has raised questions about how much Mr. Obama, Congress and the public can believe the military’s assessments.” -http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-11-22/isis-coverup-us-centcom-accused-lying-president-congress-public-about-airstrikes-gro

  119. geokat62 says:

    Is it just me or are others starting to smell something fishy, again. I’m getting the sense the MFA are at it again, sending over posters who have interesting monikers hyping up their supposed military service and bad mouthing Islam.
    You got to hand it to them, they never give up.

  120. Sam Shama says:
    @Jim Christian

    You got it sir! Yup the bad shit happens fast (Kunduz was some hell). I am sure you saw more’n enough in yours.

    Happy Turkey Day and Merry Christmas to you and your family as well.

  121. Andrei Martyanov [AKA "SmoothieX12"] says: • Website
    @Jim Christian

    Jim,

    here I have to disagree with you. “Bad-mouthing America”, which committed a war crime in removing one of the last secular Arab dictators, while killing, misplacing and making miserable millions of innocent Arabs can not be denied. Especially, since it was done on the fully false pre-text. This, however, does not remove a serious and a legitimate issue of Islam and its fundamental incompatibility with European civilization.

  122. @annamaria

    Annamaria,

    None of that matters. Not Bush, not Rice, not Obama. How we got here does not matter. You refuse to pick a doctrine to live under Western-style feminism, or Islamic Caliphate.

    That damage is now done. Iraq was toppled by Bush, 5 Arab leaders were toppled during the “Arab Spring” under Obama. All that is too bad. And none of it matters.

    We either stop the bleeding and clear these folks out of our societies or we allow them to take them over. Islam is not as good at coexisting are you are. On the bright side, however, when Islam does take over and the Caliphate IS instituted, I get my male privilege back. Given that, I don’t know why I argue against Islam with ideological, spoiled, petulant little girls on these pages.

    Good evening..

    • Replies: @KA
    , @annamaria
  123. Avery says:

    Poor, poor, innocent nomad Turks.

    All the fault of Yahoodies.
    IslamoFascist Neo-Ottoman Sultan Erdogan and his nomad gang completely innocent.
    Turks are not supporting ISIS: of course not.
    Erdogan’s son is not involved in the the trade of stolen Syrian oil: of course not.
    Lying ,thieving, backstabbing nomad Turks always blaming others for their crimes.

    So why are nomad Turks still occupying 40% of Cyprus ?

  124. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian

    Kat, you have to pick one. Western society or Islamic Caliphate.

    This is exactly the false dichotomy Zionists would like to present to the dumb goy.

    What is not explicitly stated but implied is that a “Western society” means a world in which western governments unquestionably subscribe to the Zionist game plan of remaking the ME, by regime changing those countries that are deemed hostile to the Zionist project.

    So we are asked to choose between this so-called Western society and the evil Caliphate. I say, no thanks. I choose, instead, a pre-9/11 world order – i.e., no to the Clean Break and no to the Caliphate. End the occupation now… end the corrupting special relationship now… and adhere to international law.

  125. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    ” As I’ve always said, our parents of the WW2 generation would have cleaned up Islam and put them right back in the sandbox.”
    But the current generation of US/EU/Israel deciders accepts the islamists as either the dearest friends (see Bush wet kisses with Saudis) or pliable “moderates” (the useful Al Qaida warriors). The Western coalition needs ISIS to confront Russian Federation. You may do not like Muslims but they are currently better friends for the US/EU/Israel than the Russians that fight the ISIS.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/25/provoking-russia-2/
    “It is unlikely that Turkey would have shot down a Russian fighter jet without some consultation with its US NATO ally. It has been clear since Russia’s first bombing campaigns in Syria in September that the there was great potential for an “accident” that could lead to conflict between the US and Russia.” The war profiteers need wars and they hate those whose presence could endanger the continuity of the wars. Hence the visceral hatred by the US/Israel neocons for Putin (if you are not aware, Putin is not a Muslim but a Christian).

  126. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    ??????? Sam, I just posted this here, I didn’t write it. H.R. 4108 was introduced and referred to committee(s) on Friday — and apparently will need tremendous citizen pressure to get voted out of committee and onto the House floor. How can we help? For example, a friend on mine posted this on his FB:

    NATO is arming ISIS terrorists. Turkey is the NATO conduit and the CIA runs the operation.

    The terrorists who blew up Paris, blew up a Russian passenger jet, who chop off heads, execute non-believers, and rape children are funded by Turkey. Turkey gives ISIS sanctuary, provides ISIS mercenaries hospital care, buys ISIS oil, allows ISIS recruits to transit from Turkey into Syria, hosts ISIS terrorist training camps on its soild next to Syria, and provides ISIS armaments. Now Turkey shoots down planes that attack ISIS.

    Turkey is the site of one of the largest US airbases in the world at Incirlik.Turkey is one of the greatest recipients of US financial and military “aid.” President Obama said Turkey “had the right to defend its territory” when Turkey shot down a Russian bomber over Syria that had attacked the ISIS terrorists.

    If you don’t like the spread of terrorism and the threat of terrorists you need to tell President Obama. Ask your Representative to stop supporting ISIS by cosponsoring HR4108.

    The Syrian refugees are fleeing ISIS terror, sponsored by the USA.

    Copy and paste this link if you want to see documentation of ISIS weapons based on serial numbers and sources.

    conflictarm.com/…/2014/09/Dispatch_IS_Iraq_Syria_Weapons.pdf

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  127. KA says:

    This is an alarmingly dangerous schizophrenic situation . It is no less insane unpredictable and criminal than what the world was subjected to by the deep-state at the twilight days of the psychopath Dulles who in CIA was operating against De Gulle,Algeria,and JFK after fiasco in Cuba but after successful operation in Iran,Guatemala, and Congo . Libya ,Yemen,and Somalia are the success story of the Neo Cons . Putin over Syria is facing De Gaulle moment over Algeria .

  128. Kiza says:

    The downing of the Russian bomber jet is a clear act of war by Turkey and its backer the US, after the US signed an agreement with Russia on coordination of air-forces.

    If Russia chooses to ignore the death of its two people, one pilot and one marine at the hands of the proxies of its “partners”, well that is their choice.

    If Russia chooses to ignore that the pilot and the marine were killed by the US weapons supplied to terrorists, well that is their choice.

    It was the US/Israel/Turkey sponsored terrorist proxies which brought down the Russian airliner. If Russia chooses to ignore 224 dead Russians, including babies, well that is their choice.

    Russia cannot be in the Coalition of the Sponsors of Terrorism now re-branded into “Anti-ISIS Coalition”. If Russia chooses to join thus rebranded civilian killing gang, well that is their choice.

    That would be the last straw, I sincerely hope that the Russian leadership will not.

    The West already wages war on Russia, but it appears that the Russians have not noticed yet.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  129. KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:
    @Jim Christian

    I think that we tried. Bush spoke of God and God given mandate to bring new set of experiences and behaviors to middle eastern people all the time and he thought he would be welcomed as the Europeans were by Natives of S America ,according to Pope . Boykin got fired up and dreamt of facing the anti Christ Muslim God in Somalia . His fellow believers Ethipia and Kenya joined to secure the realm for the Chrstian God in Somalia . Graham sent busloads of Bible to Jordan for shipping to hungry Iraqi souls . Tom DeLay was thunderin g at different prayer breakfast to move the baptization process faster .International Bible Society published a Scripture booklet for Iraqi refugees . Mr Hagee proved that he never slept when the issue of preaching by violence got some tailwind from the fellow faithful . It did not matter if it were Iran ,Iraq or Libya.or Pakistan. In between the prisoners of Abu Gharib and Guantanamo and Bagrahm were reminded periodically why Muslim god was failing to protect the innocents from sexual attacks,canine attacks,sodomy and Koran going down the toilet .

    It didnot work The Iraqi natives didnot turn out to be the Natives of Latin America or Africa . They did not run . They did not agree to another two hundred years of Monroe Doctrine and servitude.
    So the game plan changed. The vicious ,criminals and opportunists were selected and given the aura of Islamic scholar and fighters to save the day for the empire . They are fool cruel and they pray . The dangerous combination the empire like since it suits the purpose of demonizing the Islam for the consumption of the Evangelical fool and advance the causes that otherwise could have been achieved more peacefully had the native converted .

    It just didn’t happen.
    It didn’t happen in Phillipnes . Ann Coulter is painfully aware of that failures in Miandano.

  130. L.K says:
    @Jim Christian

    Nah Jim “Christian”, Your government and its allies have CREATED ISIS.
    The US Department of Intelligence Agency (DIA) documented it. See previous post.

    The US government and its client states have also created and nurtured the various al-ciada groups that preceded it.

    You are just too cowardly and/or dishonest to admit it.

    The US and its allies/vassals are the worse terrorists in the world, by far

    The director of the National Security Agency under Ronald Reagan, Lt. General William Odom, noted:

    “Because the United States itself has a long record of supporting terrorists and using terrorist tactics, the slogans of today’s war on terrorism merely makes the United States look hypocritical to the rest of the world.”

    Odom also said:

    “By any measure the US has long used terrorism. In ‘78-79 the Senate was trying to pass a law against international terrorism – in every version they produced, the lawyers said the US would be in violation.”

    Buahhahahahahhaa

    Even the Washington Post reported in 2010:

    “The United States has long been an exporter of terrorism, according to a secret CIA analysis released Wednesday by the Web site WikiLeaks.”

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  131. RobinG says:
    @Kiza

    The Russians aren’t ignoring anything. It’s a long game. Why are you goading? Want them to do something stupid? Well, maybe this will make you happy:

    The Russian Air Force base in Latakia will be reinforced with S-400 SAM system, which will soon be deployed there, Russia’s Defense Minister Sergey Shoigu said on Wednesday.

    “S-400 will be deployed on Khmeimim airbase in Syria,” Shoigu said at a Defense Ministry meeting.

    Earlier on Tuesday, the Russian Su-24 was shot down by a Turkish F-16 fighter jet near the Turkish-Syrian border. One pilot died in the incident. The second one was rescued and brought to the Russian airbase in Latakia.
    Moscow maintains the jet did not violate Turkey’s airspace. It ditched on Syria’s territory four kilometers from the border.

    Shortly afterwards, the MoD announced three steps to be taken following the attack on the Russian Su-24 bomber, including providing aerial cover by fighter jets for every airstrike, boosting air defense by deploying guided missile cruisers off the Latakia coast, and suspending all military-to-military contacts with Turkey.

    The S-400 is Russia’s most advanced anti-aircraft defense system. It is as an upgrade of the S-300 Growler family, designed and developed by Almaz Antei. The S-400 is employed to ensure air defense using long- and medium-range missiles that can hit aerial targets at ranges up to 400 kilometers.

    The S-400 is capable of hitting tactical and strategic aircraft as well as ballistic and cruise missiles. The system includes a set of radars, missile launchers and command posts, and is operated solely by the Russian military.
    An S-400 “Triumf” antiaircraft missile system. © Kirill Kallinikov

    An S-400 “Triumf” antiaircraft missile system.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  132. Kiza says:
    @RobinG

    I am not goading, but for you to understand, here is a repeat of my comment to PCR article on the shoot-down on this same website:

    Of course this was an act of war, but not by Turkey then by US. It was the US which signed an agreement with Russia on NATO’s behalf, to avoid conflict in the air within the so called “anti-ISIS Coalition”. Then the US sicked its Turkish dogs onto undefended Russian bombers (undefended because Putin believed the agreement). Nobody consulted Obama, he is just a gentleman of color sitting in the White House, enjoying his Nobel Peace Prize. So the Turks asked the US Neocon/Zionist leadership and got permission to shoot. Putin ended up with a huge egg on his face (he called it “knife in the back”) and two dead Russian officers for trusting US. The Neocons/Zionists would have done this even just to enjoy the sight of Putin looking like an idiot in front of the whole World, because he dispossessed so many of them of their Russian loot under Yeltsin.

    Therefore, my main point is that the Russians/Putin should have never trusted the US (where the neocons are the real decision makers). But Russian lives appear cheap. To save on costs, they sent bombers without fighter escort (I could not believe this when I read it). The Russian planes should have never approached within 100 km of Turkey or Israel without fighter escort, because these two countries have been acting as ISIS airforces from the moment they started their aggression on Syria.

    Now, I am not against Russia at all, but let us hope that this was the final wake up call for the leadership to know who they are dealing with. Once the Russian leadership stops talking about the (non-existent) “International Law”, I will acknowledge the Russian progress in mental development. Till then keep putting your pilots on the altar of stupidity. You should also appreciate that the point of my previous write up was for Russia to avoid entanglement into any “Coalition” BS.

    PS. I have seen the news of S400 on RT many hours ago. Better late than never. It will be a great field of battle test for a relatively new system.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  133. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    “We either stop the bleeding and clear these folks out of our societies or we allow them to take them over.”
    “We” have been squeezing “these folks” from their society to “ours” for 14 years. To clear “them out” from “our” society would require a massive intrusion of both the secret police and “vigilant citizens.” Instead of punishing the limited number of perpetrators of the crimes, including the defacement of the US Constitution by the same bunch of criminals (the war profiteers), you propose to eliminate millions of people for their adherence to their traditions. Sounds like Final Solution, this time initiated by the empire of Federal Reserve.
    A short note: You do aware about the changes in a status of female education in Libya and Syria after the PNAC/AIPAC plans went there in action? You see, the Saudis and Qatar are “our” allies and they are for Caliphate, very actively…

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  134. KA [AKA "Carthage"] says:
    @joe webb

    The group, which calls itself the Bureau of American Islamic Relations, staged an armed protest outside an Islamic centre in the Dallas suburb of Irving last Saturday. “We’re here protesting Syrian refugees coming to America, protesting the Islamisation of America,” David Wright, a spokesman, told local FOX4 News.

    “Many Muslims in the community felt targeted by the event, which came after the Irving mayor, Beth Van Duyne, made waves in the rightwing media by making references to an Islamic dispute mediation panel that wrongly became characterised as an “illegal Sharia court”.
    http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/nov/25/anti-muslim-group-publishes-names-texas

    It has started . Your or that of Carson/Huckabee/Fox group ‘s collective dreams are be becoming 5th dimensional ,kaleidoscopic in experiences .
    This lends itself to minor confusion like the ignorance of the knowledge that there are hundreds of mediatory Jewish,Christian and Native Indian religious courts already in US and Canada.
    But ignorance is great . It protects faltering and shattered ego. It protects the fragile existence under the shadows of the crony militaristic capitalism of the thuggery .This is why the pendulum moves in the narrow arc of extremism of two types,secular and religious . Look at Eric Prince guy of Blackwater , a devout Christisn who did the biddings for Bush cronies following 911 and who now does the chores of the royal gulf montachs after that Christian 911 Muslim narrative stopped paying him for his food on the table .
    Now the Muslim monarchs couldn’t get enough IS or true bred American Christisn and has to descend on the green Christian jungle of Columbia to get the best killers money can buy.

    -UAE Dispatches Colombian Mercenaries to Yemen
    Emiratis Aimed to Create Second Army Out of Latin America
    by Jason Ditz, November 25, 2015-

    http://news.antiwar.com/2015/11/25/uae-dispatches-colombian-mercenaries-to-yemen/

    It seems your confusion allows you to believe that the Christian faith gets momentarily suspended among these mercenaries when they conduct their lucrative bloody business .
    This id what we could rename as ” knowledgable ignorance” . The inconsistencies have to fit in with the Western Chritisn zeitgeist . We tell stories to children at night. Don’t we? It has to be Santa Clause who brings the booty and it has to be a demon who organizes the looting
    We have seen that temporary suspension on numerous occasions for last few hundred years lasting every time few years . That momentary hysterical possession of the body and the mind by the demon and suspension of fdivinity can definitely explain not only these Texans but their masters just round the corner where Bush cronies sat down and carved up the Middle East plans few years back as follow up to Sykes Picot original suspecsipn of morality ,ethics,and legality.

  135. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Yeah realised it. I was rushing yesterday. I am going to meet with our man in Congress with a few others.

    Thanks Robin

    • Replies: @geokat62
  136. KA [AKA "carthage"] says:
    @L.K

    Thanks
    for exposing the widely held assumption as wrong

    ( but assumption helps . Look at Carson or Trump . The lies on 911 dancing and cheering Muslim have been mytholized instantly after they were birthed few weeks ago possibly by the same crowd pleasers who throng to Town Hall meeting not to question corruption destruction,cronyism,and ignorance but to confront shadow bogey man hiding in between the bricks of the collapsing Detroit buildings which can easily serve as metaphor for the large swath of Ohio,Virginia,Missouri and Nevada or Albama’s hopeless future . They confront the fake because they never learn to identify the real let alone confront it )

    • Replies: @Fran Macadam
  137. annamaria says:

    A repost of a commentary by David Habakkuk on Sic Semper Tyrannis:

    “While there are currently only 73 comments on the CBS report – not enough on which to base any strong conclusions – I do note that the same acute suspicion of Turkey and scepticism one finds in Britain are apparent, even in much more muted form.
    From the top rated comment: ‘It’s pretty pathetic when a NATO ally, a muslim country, is itching for a superpower conflict and you have to look to Russia for a reasonable deescalating response.’
    Someone might perhaps point out to Obama that his comments about the Russian priority being to attack ‘the moderate opposition that might be future members of an inclusive Syrian government’ are being read against the background of the videos from the incident.
    The sight of insurgents machine-gunning the Russian pilots as they parachuted down, the chants of ‘Allahu Akbar’ next to the dead pilot, and the American-made TOW missile attacking the Russian helicopter, are hardly such as to convince people that those involved might be ‘future members of an inclusive Syrian government‘.
    The only possible response would seem to be that which has been – apparently erroneously – attributed to Mark Twain: ‘Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on, or by imbeciles who really mean it.’
    And it seems to me that recent events are pushing more and more people to the suspicion that, while the ‘front men’ may appear ‘imbeciles’, behind them are ‘smart people who are putting us on.’ My own view is that this is largely wrong, but it is important to try to be clear about perceptions.
    If the collapse of the credibility of Western leaders here was evident in the comments on the ‘MailOnline’ site to which I linked yesterday, it is even more apparent in those on their report of the rescue of the second pilot from the Su-24.
    The second ‘best-rated’ comment says that the Russians ‘are attacking a group that the whole world is meant to be against! It just shows you! That not everyone wants Isis destroyed.’ (Currently, 3,123 approvals, 219 disapprovals.)
    That makes the underlying uncertainty and anxiety clear: People do not seem to be doing all they can to fight the ‘Islamic State’ – why is this?
    Slightly further down on the list of ‘best rated’ comments: ‘Good to know one has made it out! Salute to you sir! And the lads who helped him.’ (2182 approvals, 34 disapprovals.) And then there is: ‘Praise be to God for the rescue of this heroic pilot by very brave and skilled men! Rest in peace to his two comrades in arms murdered yesterday.’ (1460 approvals, 60 disapprovals.)
    There is, I think, only one way to read this: Putin and his people, unlike our leaders, really do want these people destroyed. Whatever their faults, they are not lying mendacious toerags, such as we increasingly suspect our leaders to be. Their soldiers are fighting the good fight, and deserve honour for doing so.
    (See http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3333117/Downed-Russian-pilot-picked-Syrian-army-envoy.html#comments)
    And the growing suspicion that Western leaders are not really serious about fighting the ‘Islamic State’, and the uncertainty about how this is to be explained, is not simply found in comments on the ‘Mail Online’ site.
    Yesterday, a discussion was also going on the ‘Financial Times’ site of an article by their chief foreign affairs commentator, Gideon Rachman, entitled ‘A case for rapprochement with Russia.’ The article was itself interesting, in that it represented a significant move away from the neo-con ‘high horse’ on which Rachman had traditionally ridden.
    The top-rated commenter, calling himself ‘LostForWords’, picked up his repetition of the familiar claim that ‘Mr Assad’s brutality has served as a rallying cry for Sunni Arabs and helped the jihadi cause’. He responded:
    ‘How much longer are you going to peddle this pathetic lie. The jihadis were sent to Syria by the jihadis’ State Department backers, and for the same reason they were sent to Libya, – to destabilise a country that that has long been marked for “regime-change” by the neo-cons. Assad’s “brutality”, like Gadaffi’s, was merely the reaction that was planned ahead of the insurgence, so that he could be blamed for attacking his own people. If you can’t tell the truth, it’s better not to print anything.’
    (See https://next.ft.com/content/2c99affa-91c6-11e5-94e6-c5413829caa5#comments . m Unfortunately, the article is behind a subscription wall, and registering only gets one 3 articles a month, so for most people it’s not worth the bother.)
    Now one is not dealing here with a mass audience: there are 30 recommendations, rather than more than 23,000 – the current level for the ‘Mail’ report to which I linked. But the way that the basically ‘Borgista’ line of the ‘FT’ has progressively lost credibility with commenters – and at some points is beginning to waver – really is startling. The contrast to a year ago is dramatic.
    The critical point that the ‘MailOnline’ and ‘FT’ comments have in common, however, is that they indicate a developing suspicion that the apparent lack of seriousness of the powers that be in the West about combating the ‘Islamic State’ indicates that they do may not really want it defeated – and may have been strongly complicit in its creation.
    I am feeling my way here, but there are indications that, if Western élites do not wise up, a perception of them as being in hoc to essentially alien political agendas – in particular a bizarre alliance of Sunni Wahabist and Zionist – for whom terrorism is a useful tool and the odd hundred dead in the Bataclan collateral damage may gain quite widespread currency. The potential political implications are explosive.”

  138. @annamaria

    AnnaM,

    Again, that’s the past, the future is now and what to do about the situation in France, now, today, going forward. How we got here from there doesn’t much matter. We now have a situation and there’s no sense looking in the rear-view when the danger is in the windshield, approaching at high velocity.

    I know Bush screwed up. Bill Clinton screwed some things up. Reagan, Carter, going clear back to Ike, mistakes were made in the Middle East in the quest for oil that brought us to where we are today. And today, none of that matters anymore.

    Final solution? Well, I don’t say go Hitleresque, but if you have culture that is a threat in your midst, it might make sense to quarantine the threat so it doesn’t break into the public square. It all depends on your bent. If you want to live in peace and pass on a safe culture to your kids, you do what needs doing to preserve a culture worth preserving. On the other hand, if not, then we have the answer. But with Islam, there’s no compromise, no slack, no forgiveness. You merely decide which system you prefer to live and die under and make your choices. Pretty simple stuff as I said and none of it has anything to do with the past. The threat is real, it’s today and yesterday does not matter.

    Happy Thanksgiving on and all.

    • Replies: @bunga
    , @bunga
    , @annamaria
  139. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    I am going to meet with our man in Congress…

    Sam, do me a favour and try bouncing my million man march idea off of him. See if he is willing to be a keynote speaker.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @RobinG
  140. @L.K

    Fine, LK. And what do we do now, going forward? And why do you celebrate failure? I don’t deny the failures, but sure as Hell, I didn’t contribute to them. But now that children and citizens are murdered, why do those that point at faulty government celebrate in the face of murder and mayhem with “Buahhahahahahhaa”? What is the matter with you?

    As for the WashPost, NYTimes and the rest, they’re dead-dino media, they’re irrelevant outside the Beltway, that’s I-495. Actually, outside of Old Town Alexandria and Arlington and Bethesda, I hadn’t seen a copy of the Post hitting any driveway for 10 years before I flew off to Boston in 2009. Wretched place, Washington. Grew up there, it was a nice town, but Liberals ruined it. Ah well.

    Feel vindicated, pointing out the failures that result in the murders of men, women and children? I might remind some of you folks that Barak Hussein Obama has been in the White House for north of 7 years now. Where is the love of Islam? How’s the reset with Russia going? How’s the world these days? No better than when the man I blamed for our troubles 10 years ago when he tipped over Iraq, Mr. Bush. But time is vicious when wasted. And we’d better figure out what to do about the Islamic undertow into the West and quickly. I suspect a surrender is in the works.

    But I figure, hell, when Islam takes over and wipes out Feminism, I get my Male Privilege back. Why do I argue in favor of Western Civilization with the Liberals that will be wiped out in any case? If Western-based feminist liberals and their eunuch men and the alphabet stew of sexual depravity aren’t interested in saving this wretched culture, really, why should I?

    I surrender and defer to said feminist liberals and their eunuch, cuckolded men. Allah Akbar.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  141. bunga says:
    @Jim Christian

    “Again, that’s the past, the future is now and what to do about the situation in France, ”
    This morning is already “past” per your watch and the decade or century before this or the one before the last is “now” according your calender.

  142. bunga says:
    @joe webb

    When hate is the final product , any ingredient could work.
    look at Harris .He can be as good as Carson. Strong man in debate on No God and strong man on debate for 7th day God

    “Harris, chatting with neocon Doug Marry, speaks highly of Carson’s approach to fighting “jihadists”:
    “Given a choice between Noam Chomsky and Ben Carson, in terms of the totality of their understanding of what’s happening now in the world, I’d vote for Ben Carson every time. Ben Carson is a dangerously deluded religious imbecile.…the fact that he is a candidate for president is a scandal…but at the very least he can be counted on to sort of get this one right. He understands that jihadists are the enemy.”

    Sam Harris listens to Ben Carson and thinks he makes sense on Middle East policy.

    http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/sam-harris-thinks-ben-carson-understands-middle-east-better-noam-chomsky

  143. bunga says:
    @Jim Christian

    “I know Bush screwed up. Bill Clinton screwed some things up. Reagan, Carter, going clear back to Ike, mistakes were made in the Middle East in the quest for oil that brought us to where we are today. And today, none of that matters anymore.

    Yesterday does not matter”

    It matters to a lot of people including those who got trapped in Libyan violence form sub Saharan Africa .

    911 still matters to the stupid GOP intellectually challenged dwarfs and Democrat war hawk . It still resonates with the Texan drug addicts and wife beaters looking for moral masculine redemption of masculinity upset with Paris attacks 6000 miles away ( reminiscent of some Indonesian getting all shook up over tortures in Abu Ghraib )

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  144. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    “If you want to live in peace and pass on a safe culture to your kids, you do what needs doing to preserve a culture worth preserving.”
    Exactly. Look who is fighting the liver-eaters and who is protecting them. The threat is indeed real, and, surprisingly, it is not the Empire of Federal Reserve that has been fighting that threat but the former Empire of Evil. Something had changed dramatically since the last year in Ukraine. To make it absolutely clear, there are powerful forces that do not want a secular and tolerant Middle East; hence the destruction of the functioning and religiously-tolerant states of Iraq, Syria, and Libya. There are quite obvious and strong reasons why the Middle East has become the hotbed of Wahhabism. You care about the future of our children? – Then look who has been benefitting from the Middle Eastern mess. The same powers want your irritation and imagination to continue the carnage in the Middle East (and beyond). The same powers are totally oblivious to the well-being of (ordinary) Europeans and Americans, including our children.

  145. @bunga

    Nope. None of it matters, not a wit. All that matters is the future. Paris of November 13, 2015 no longer matters.

    All that matters is the future.

  146. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    you’ve sure got their number Kiza

    It will be a great field of battle test for a relatively new system.

    I hope they don’t get used. I hope this thing de-escalates. I’d even say (as if it were mine to give) ‘hey, Israel, go ahead and take the Golan Heights’ if it would bring peace and eventually sanity.

    But sadly by now I’m all too aware of their mentality and know that they’d only see the capitulation as weakness and demand more and more and more and more …..

    So Putin is now in the less than pleasant position of being the world’s only hope against the insane hubris and infinite thuggish hegemony of this lot and sort of humanities last hope and only statesman on the world’s stage in this new century, as the usual suspects do all they can to make this one as bloody and horrific as the last one.

    I wish him God speed, but also realize that they’re hoping that he does something rash, so they can have the excuse to do what they do.

    Putin should have never trusted the US (where the neocons are the real decision makers).

    I don’t think he trusts them. How could he? But he has to deal with them. But how do you deal with the devil himself?

    .

    .

    .

    (on a lighter note I hope everyone is enjoying the holiday ; )

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Kiza
  147. @Bill Jones

    I don’t know who actually believes it, whatever the PR cover, but the practical accomplishment is without fail surely the opposite. It appears, therefore, that a number of influential “morons” must actually believe in democracy destruction.

  148. “Someone might perhaps point out to Obama that his comments about the Russian priority being to attack ‘the moderate opposition that might be future members of an inclusive Syrian government’ are being read against the background of the videos from the incident.
    The sight of insurgents machine-gunning the Russian pilots as they parachuted down, the chants of ‘Allahu Akbar’ next to the dead pilot, and the American-made TOW missile attacking the Russian helicopter, are hardly such as to convince people that those involved might be ‘future members of an inclusive Syrian government‘.”

    You got it. I watched that celebratory murder video taken by the “moderate” head choppers. I wouldn’t be inviting them into any government I’d want. They make the old Soviet and Cuban revolutionaries look positively civilized.

    Our own Deep State governance has become congenitally incapable of being honest with its own people.

    • Replies: @annamaria
  149. @KA

    Somebody was celebrating the towers going down, over in New Jersey.

    We watched the replays that day, starting with the plane hitting the second tower. Intermingled among all the reports in network coverage, was video of persons apparently celebrating the terrible event.

    I recall commenting to those also watching, that is dangerous footage to be airing, as it could incite a riot.

    Not long after, it was no longer reported on and not aired.

    Subsequently, there was some question of what nationality it was of those who had celebrated. There was even speculation that it had been Israelis – and that a significant number of Israelis who were engaged in spying pretending to be “art students” were subsequently deported.

    Who knows who they were? After all, even the Iranian President instead expressed condolences. And we know that the only commercial craft allowed to fly out with airspace shut down was a Saudi contingent who wanted to avoid questioning, at a point when the public didn’t know that the attack was carried out by Saudis.

    I think the successful candidacy of Trump reveals the low estate of our decrepit democracy-cum-oligarchy. However, we could do even worse than Trump, given the other candidates and we likely will.

    But Trump’s memory doesn’t fail him. There was disturbing video aired at the time of the attacks that appeared to show people celebrating across in New Jersey. I saw it.

    What’s in those 28 redacted pages?

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  150. @Fran Macadam

    “What’s in those 28 redacted pages?”

    It’s been called “28 pages of misdirection.”

    Very likely those pages will legitimately incriminate the Saudis but possibly they also are what intelligence agencies (and agents) use to blackmail. The game can work something like this; Suppose I blew your operatives cover to derail some action and didn’t want blow-back. If I have something even bigger to release (like the 28 pages) you’d be hesitant to come after me. That sort of dirty play can take any number of convoluted iterations and maybe there’s some demand or threat aimed at the Saudis to try and make them conform to a certain line or behavior with a threatened release.

    Now, if those 28 pages are about to be exposed, probably there is an agenda. What that agenda is, is almost certainly unknown to to us mere mortals.

  151. annamaria says:
    @Fran Macadam

    “Our own Deep State governance has become congenitally incapable of being honest with its own people.”
    They are not be able to be honest with themselves. Look like a zombie ant infected with fungus.

  152. annamaria says:

    Calling a spade a spade:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/2015/11/26/turkey-shoot-the-rage-of-the-impotent-in-syria/
    “At 9.30am on Tuesday morning, a Russian SU-24 jet was shot down by Turkish fighter planes. Its pilots were then allegedly killed by Syrian Turkmen anti-government militias, with the body of one paraded on camera in a video that was immediately posted on youtube. Turkey claimed the jet had encroached on Turkish airspace, but Russia maintains the plane was shot down well inside Syrian territory, 4km from the Turkish border. Rather than calling Russia to defuse any tension arising from the attack, Turkey then immediately called an emergency NATO meeting to ramp it up – “as if we shot down their plane”, Putin commented, “and not they ours”…
    Russia’s direct entry into the Syrian conflict two months ago has caused utter panic in the ‘regime change’ camp. Belying all their ‘anti-ISIS’ rhetoric, the US and Britain were openly horrified that Russia might actually be putting up an effective fight against the group and restoring governmental authority to the ungoverned spaces in which it thrives. Immediately, the West began warning of ‘blowback’ to Russia, and ramping up advanced arms shipments to the insurgency. Within a month, a Russian passenger plane was blown up, with ISIS claiming responsibility and British Foreign Minister Philip Hammond calling the attack a “warning shot”. It was a “shot” alright, aimed not only at Russia, but also at her allies; the downing of the plane on Egyptian soil was a deliberate act of economic war against the Egyptian tourist industry, a punishment for Egypt’s support for Russia and Syria and its choking off of fighters to Syria since Sisi came to power. ..
    Russia has embarked on a major campaign against ISIS’ reportedly 1000-strong oil tanker fleet which is so crucial to the group’s financial success. As the Institute for the Study of War reported, “Russian military chief of staff Col. Gen. Andrey Kartapolov announced on November 18 “Russian warplanes are now flying on a free hunt” against ISIS-operated oil tanker trucks traveling back and forth from Syria and Iraq, claiming that Russian strikes had destroyed over 500 ISIS-operated oil trucks in the past “several days.”” This massive dent in the group’s oil transporting capacity even shamed the US into belatedly and somewhat half-heartedly launching similar attacks of their own. The smashing of ISIS’ oil industry will not only be a blow to the entire death squad project, but will directly affect Turkey, widely thought to be involved in the transportation of ISIS-produced oil, and even Erdogan’s family itself, as it is the company run by his son Bilal that is believed to be running the illicit trade.”

  153. annamaria says:

    Very sad. And what a Day of Shame for the US.

    “…an air navigator of the Russian SU-24 frontline bomber which was shot down by the Turks, gave his first interview with Russian media, in which he stated that there is no way that his plane violated Turkish airspace: “No. It is not possible, not even for one second. Especially because we were flying at around 6.000 meters, the weather was clear, as we say in our jargon a day in a million, our whole flight up to the moment that the rocket hit us was completely under my control. I saw the border and our exact location perfectly both on the map and on the surroundings. There was not even the threat of crossing over into Turkey – he told reporters. We have carried out combat missions there many times, we know the area inside out, we perform combat missions and return on the reverse route to the air base. As the navigator, I know practically every elevation over there. I can even navigate without instruments “– he said.
    The pilot said that the Turkish missile hit the plane suddenly and it was not possible for the crew to avoid it and there was no advance warning from the Turkish side. In fact there were no warnings at all – not by radio traffic and not visually, there was just no contact. … the missile suddenly came at the tail of the plane.”

    Turkey: “Our military attache was informed that it was impossible to hand over any materials regarding the attack on the Russian plane by a Turkish F-16 on November 24″

    • Replies: @annamaria
  154. annamaria says:
    @annamaria

    The missed links:
    http://inserbia.info/today/2015/11/turkey-denies-releasing-recordings-of-contacts-with-downed-russian-su-24/
    “Turkish authorities have informed the Russian military attache that they did not provide the media with audio recordings of alleged radio contacts between their F-16 fighter and the downed Russian Su-24 aircraft, the Russian Defense Ministry said Thursday… If so, this confirms yet again that the recordings of the Turkish pilots’ contacts with our crew that emerged today are another fake,” Maj. Gen. Konashenkov told reporters. “Our military attache was informed that it was impossible to hand over any materials regarding the attack on the Russian plane by a Turkish F-16 on November 24,” the spokesman said

    http://thesaker.is/the-air-navigator-of-the-su24-i-have-a-debt-to-repay-for-the-commander/

  155. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian

    Fine, LK. And what do we do now, going forward?

    I’m always amused when I see someone saying what amounts to that Monty Python moment in The Holy Grail

    ‘who cares who killed who?”

    while Iraq, Libya and other places are in smoking ruins and we’re doing the same to Syria and Ukraine today

    I don’t think it’s myopia that prevents Jim here from making a connection between the wholesale slaughter and aggressive wars America has been waging on behalf of Israel in the Middle East and some of the consequent problems we’re having with Islam.

    here, let me help Jim

    illegally bombing and destroying and mass-murdering and torturing and raping children in front of their mothers and imposing assorted head slicing sub-human cannibals and AK waving stone age animals on otherwise civilized, relatively secular societies = problems

    OK?

    Can you try at least to make that synaptic connection?

    if you want to rail about the problems the occupied west is having with Islam due to the insanity it (Amerika) has been displaying in the world; bombing unthreatening countries willy-nilly and ignoring all known principles of international law or simple human decency, why not try looking in a mirror Jim?

    If America and the American government and the American people had not decided to act like the world’s biggest assholes the world has known since Hitler and Stalin and Mao were imposing their brand of statecraft on the planet, then perhaps the Syrians and Libyans and America’s creation ISIS wouldn’t be in the news today, eh?

    I have a word for you Jim

    maybe you’ve never heard it, but here goes

    neocon

    it sort of means new-conservative in a way, but in reality what it describes is a group of ideological people who are responsible for all of the bullshit that you’re railing about. It is the neocons that are foisting all the wars and slaughter and mayhem. It is the neocons that will do ANYTHING for Israel’s Likud Nazis. It is the neocons who are demanding massive immigration of everyone into Western countries. For simplicities sake, they’re also known as Zionists Jim. Or more to the point, uber-Zionists, because they don’t just want a homeland for the world’s Jews, but rather want to turn the world into a reverse Holocaust where they get their revenge on Muslims and Nazis (that would be you Jim) and everyone else who has failed to bow down appropriately to their god-like greatness as they see it.

    So Jim, if you want to rail about all the problems with Muslims and their backward ways, then please do look at who is behind all the strife in the Muslim world today. When you fail to examine why things are the way they are and just cry like baby about the status quo, then you’ll never be able so solve anything. You have to look at the causes of a problem in order to find a solution. And blubbering about Muslims being in Europe and being upset and how we should all be mad at them looks monumentally stupid when you seem unwilling or unable to see the causes of it all.

    .
    .
    that’s enough for me

    time to enjoy the holiday : )

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  156. RobinG says:
    @Rurik

    Evidence of Hasbara ??

    “I’d even say … ‘hey, Israel, go ahead and take the Golan Heights’ if it would bring peace..”

    Chamberlain had nothing on you for appeasement. Or is this what you’re working for all along?

    • Agree: Ronald Thomas West
    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @Rurik
  157. @RobinG

    “Evidence of Hasbara ??”

    Been saying it should be as plain as day (for quite some time)

    • Replies: @RobinG
  158. Rurik says:
    @RobinG

    OK fine!

    I’m a Hasbara! You uncovered my evil schemes!

    kudos, you and the genius RTW

    darn it all! my dastardly plans are foiled again !

    >>><<<

    what does that mean anyways? that I'm some paid Israeli operative infesting Internet forums with my disinformation and clever duel personality psyops?

    it almost sounds fun if it weren't for every single word I've written since I've been here has been an attempt to expose Zionist treachery in one form or another. Rather odd don't you think that I'm being accused of actually working for Bibi and the crew. Is that why I've tried to show that Israel knew that 911 was going down and didn't warn us? Ahh, but you see, that's all a part of my shtick! I act like I’m opposed to the wars only because I want you to believe that I am so I can secretly work to undermine the peace movement!

    *drats!* They are on to me!

    but let me ask you Robin, let’s pretend that all this strife and horrors and wars could end. And let’s pretend that IF Bibi and the Zionists and Likudniks and assorted neocons and war mongers would all be magically mollified if the world were to find some way to solve the problems that vex us all by handing over control to Israel of the Golan Heights, (that they are in control of today anyways).

    would you still demand that the price is too high and that we need to take this to WWIII to keep that land putatively under Syrian control?

    would you send your children (if you have any) or other people’s children to die for that land?

    would you?

    now, I’ve already admitted that it would solve nothing, so the suggestion was just academic, but IF it could, and IF it were mine to give, and IF the world could find a way to make it agreeable to the people who live there, then I would think it would solve a lot of problems. No?

    but as I said, it wouldn’t solve anything and would only make things unimaginably worse

    but then, you can never trust the words that I’m typing right now

    because I’m really playing you all with my infinitely clever little ruse ; )

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @Clyde
  159. RobinG says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    RTW, what is your impression of Jr.? I haven’t paid so much attention, but lately he and Rurik have been acting as a tag team: Rurik makes some flamboyant perhaps anti-Semitic remarks, then Jr. comes along to say, now, now, mustn’t do that! They could be in league, or the same person, or it could be unwitting. (This isn’t even addressing what Jr. has said to me.)

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  160. @Rurik

    Relax and enjoy some humor:

    Bibi: I’m Benjamin Netanyahu but you can just call me Bibi. I’m a failed Jewish comedian who couldn’t get his foot in the door anywhere on Kazinczy Street in Budapest. My recent best joke is inviting Europe’s Jews to migrate en mass to Israel because that should make them feel safer. I’ll lottery them all tickets onto buses that might not see knife attacks, to visit cafés that possibly won’t explode, while I pose as a waiter who asks ‘is anything all right?’ And yes, we provide everyone in Israel with gas masks in case of chemical weapons attack; which also should work well against this reeking sulfur … oy gevalt … I’ve never encountered anything so stink! When I breathe through my mouth, I can taste it!! My addiction is junk-food & ice cream delivered to my office and my persona is the number one nuclear armed madman geopolitics has to take seriously. My goal is to keep the computerized vote fraud in Israel undetected and undermine investigations into related MOSSAD linked organized crime propping up my ruling coalition

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2013/08/22/demons-anonymous/

    Before people notice you present as a case of ‘the lady doth protest too much’ ; )

  161. @RobinG

    No opinion, I’ve not paid attention to their interactions. Other than that, I notice Jr has made some astute observations … however not speaking of Jr, I have noticed what appear to be ‘tag team’ commenters but not putting much energy into wrestling with it, just time to time banging on the more annoying (to me) prima facie hasbara, Rurik being at the top of my list just recently –

  162. voicum says:
    @Jim Christian

    jim, the ramble that you think is ‘informed ‘writting has nothing in common w. the truth.

    • Replies: @Jim Christian
  163. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Dear Diana,

    Since when do you have to be in “uniform ” to serve our country ?

    Rurik, like hundreds of millions of other Americans, serves his country in the way he knows best…..
    by speaking his mind.

    Perhaps in your insinuation that he not ,

    it is you who is serving it less, than he.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  164. KA says:

    Unless the banks and the big financial houses who turn the black money white are confronted ,IS woud continue to terrorize people globally long after their last man is blown into pieces .

    “Sapin ( French Finance minister ) also said that, considering the reputation of the City of London, he would be “vigilant” on the U.K.’s implementation of EU-agreed measures to clamp down on money laundering and exchange financial information on shady transactions or individuals.”

    http://www.politico.eu/article/france-demands-help-in-choking-off-terrorism-funding/

    https://medium.com/insurge-intelligence/death-drugs-and-hsbc-355ed9ef5316#.q5ajccd31

  165. @voicum

    Voic,

    These “rambles” are the complications of the issues, they are quite informed, and you can’t arrive at the truth without you consider these things. You can’t blame Bush for everything (not that I’m defending Bush, either of them) and just walk away with these issues unsolved as the apologists for radical Islam have done all over these pages. Sooner or later, we have to deal with them because sure as I type, they’re dealing with us. Fight or flight, we have to pick one.

    And you say?

    • Replies: @annamaria
  166. @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    The Neocons wrecked everything. Where do I support Neocons? I didn’t support the Arab Spring, the tipping of Saddam, nor even the no-fly zones that wore out my beloved Naval Air for 8 or 10 years under Bush1 and Clinton. Here nor there at this point, none of it matters. And I’ve said many times, not one more bomb need be dropped on Syria in the name of France. France’s, really all of Western Europe’s problem, is within Western Europe. They have a decision to make. They can live under Islam, or Western culture. Caliphate or Feminist Liberalism/Socialism. It’s that simple. Now that we let it get to a point our parents never would have, Europe must consider now, how to live and under what condition.

    Holy mackerel, what a rant, Rurik. I want no revenge, I want the problem solved. We don’t owe Syrians a place in the first world. It isn’t our problem. Importing third world overpopulation into a First World that has been told for 40 years not to overpopulate is hugely unfair to Europe and the United States for one thing. This has nothing to do with Republican or Democrat. It has to do with National survival. Islam needs to be cleared out of Paris because they aren’t a culture that assimilates. That’s all I’m saying and it’s all I’ve said. Since we didn’t solve the problem like the grownups of the WW2 generation, we now have decisions to make. Kick the can down the road all you want, someone always throws it back at us/

    But that’s ok, spout the Left Wing talking points all you like, it makes you feel relevant, I suppose. Post all the neocon history and cutie-pie references to Nazis and Conservatives you want. There is a serious problem facing the West that is beyond all that came before and has only to do with going forward. Considering the past is useless unless you’re still playing the Blame Game, a completely childish endeavor that does nothing to solve the problem.

    Caliphate or Feminist Liberal/Socialist society. Pick one. Sooner than anyone likes, it will be imposed on you. And the multicultural style of life will undergo serious reconsideration. It isn’t quite real enough yet. But it will be.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Rurik
  167. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Honestly, I am not sure why other people interpret you as Hasbara, I did not notice “Israel-first” in your comments yet. But if you are Hasbara, then shame on you (and all of them).

    Ok, now that Hasbara is out-of-the-way, here is a first small payback to the Turks. A Turkish an-announced “humanitarian” convoy got hit by an “unknown” airforce in Northern Syria, yesterday. Neither the Turks, nor the Russians commented officially.

    https://www.rt.com/news/323538-turkey-convoy-syria-attack/

    But, the Russians are showing some signs of mental advancement, as per what I wrote to RobinG:
    1) they are starting to behave like Israelis – do not officially accept responsibility for any of the hits,
    2) the article shows some signs of humor.

    The finishing paragraph is a masterpiece:

    Neither Turkish, nor Russian authorities have yet commented on the incident. However, before the Azaz incident Tayyip Erdogan commented on an event that took place in 2013, when a Turkish security service convoy was stopped on the way to the Bayırbucak region in northwestern Syria. The Turkish president said: “If there were any weapons, then what? And if there weren’t, what would change?

    I sincerely wish that this brilliant paragraph was not written but some RT foreign staffer, then by a Russian, it would be a desired proof of the Russian mental progress. I do get apoplexy when I hear a Russian general talk about the “International Law”.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @RobinG
    , @Rurik
  168. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    Geo, you have to carefully pick your battles with “million man marches”. It’s harder than (you?) most people think to get anybody on the street, much less in DC, for something that doesn’t directly affect their pocketbook or their physical person. There are few genuine activists, and it’s best not to use them unless you can really be effective. (Not to mention the time, energy, and travel money spent by the marchers.)

    Marches here are a dime a dozen, and they’re only reported in MSM if some faction of the puppet-masters wants it. You must be real clear what you’re marching for. Also realize that it would take time to campaign for it. We’re in a bubble here at Unz. (One of many.) How many “normal” American’s aren’t stuck in the ‘Putin bad, we’re good’ propaganda matrix?

    While Tulsi Gabbard’s bill, H.R. 4108, may seem small, it’s a toe-in-the-door for sanity. But it calls for procedure, not marches. Citizen delegations to the state offices of members of the House Committee on Armed Services would be more effective (IMO) than random people in the street. Appointments must be made in advance to meet the actual Member when he/she is in the home District.
    http://armedservices.house.gov/index.cfm/members

    I’m not an expert on procedure, but some things are unpredictable. The timing — how long the bill will be in committee before they vote on it — is at the discretion of the Speaker of the House. (If you’re following a particular Bill, there’s plenty of uncertainty and hurry-up-and-wait.) The Bill has also been sent to Committees on Intelligence (Permanent Select), and Foreign Affairs. Can it get to the Floor through any one of them? (I’m asking.)

    Another idea would be to get one or more of the Presidential candidates to champion the bill. I doubt anyone will say, “Gee, we’ve been backing DAESH all along, and that was wrong, and we should stop now.” So H.R. 4108 may be as good as it gets.

    I’ll stop here for now. Happy Thanksgiving.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkher6ceaA
    U.S. Congresswoman: CIA Must Stop Illegal, Counterproductive War to Overthrow Assad
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHkher6ceaA

    • Agree: Kiza
    • Replies: @geokat62
  169. Sam Shama says:
    @alexander

    Yeah I know that you don’t need to. But our uniform is a symbol of pride in our country and to give it your best. What do you know about what the enemy in the middle east? They are a frigging motivated enemy and their religion teaches them that. Have you seen them up close? I have and you really got no idea what you are talking about when you are supporting them and dissing the United States. Same goes for your pal. The day when you face the muslim enemy’s bullets, like the folks in Paris just did, you get to know what every soldier does. Look at the bs that your pal is writing. He supports the enemy and the Russians. Yeah I know we have our problems in this country with a few things, but you gotta choose your side, come hell or high water, just like Mr Christian is telling you. The muslims are born with this and ditto Russkies, and they are not going to give you a medal if they win, because you wrote flattering pieces on the internet. You guys are in some kind of non-reality.

    • Replies: @alexander
  170. geokat62 says:
    @Jim Christian

    Islam needs to be cleared out of Paris because they aren’t a culture that assimilates.

    Sounds very reminiscent of something the Nazis may have said:

    Judaism needs to be cleared out of Berlin because they aren’t a culture that assimilates.

  171. L.K says:
    @Kiza

    Well, Kiza, obviously Rurik is NOT hasbara at all.

    That is precisely the reason certain douchebags like RTW are smearing the guy.

  172. RobinG says:
    @Kiza

    Kiza, this is Rurik, @150, which is why I said “Evidence of Hasbara?”

    I’d even say (as if it were mine to give) ‘hey, Israel, go ahead and take the Golan Heights’ if it would bring peace and eventually sanity.

    It’s not his to give away, and why is it his to think like that?

    Now, about the convoy, it was asked and answered in the Q&A after the press conference. Putin took responsibility and said it was not registered as ‘humanitarian’.
    Yes, Hollande’s mission there is to coopt the Russians, but I don’t see them falling for it.

    (BTW, good analysis of Cockburn’s deception.)

    • Replies: @Kiza
  173. L.K says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Hmm.. you r just too full of yourself and arrogant to concede a point.

    Obviously the “rebels”, basically ALL of them, are sunni extremists, many r syrians and also plenty of foreigners from some 100 countries.

    This does NOT change the fact that a very LARGE number of sunni syrians support the government and make up over half of the military.
    Even Robert Fisk ended up admitting the syrian army,. including the officer corps is mostly sunni, after trying for a while to push the notion that at least the officers were almost all alawites.

    The sources i’ve mentioned are all hostile to Syria, Mr.hubris, er, RTW.

    Here’s another one for ya:

    On the CBC Radio Show ‘As It Happens’, Karen Koning AbuZayd, a former U.S. diplomat und member of the UN independent panel investigating human rights violations in Syria, is interviewed about the latest UN Human Rights Council report re the situation in Syria.
    At 5:35 min into the audio with regard to a question about a possible indictment of Assad a comparison is made to Milosovic and Serbia. There Karen Abuzayd, who was involved with Bosnia, says:

    “… Milosovic had a lot of his population strongly behind him, throughout, until the end, until now I would say, and the same goes for President Assad – there’s quite a number of the population, maybe as many as half, if not more, who stand behind him.”

  174. L.K says:

    Dr.Paul Craig Roberts, a great American, has coined the term “dumbsh*t Americans”, to refer to a very large % of the extremely ignorant US population.

    Well folks, Dr.PCR ‘dumbsh*t American’ award must go to Diana and Jim “Christian”!

    🙂

  175. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,

    Please see my reply (to Geo) @172.

    Happy Thanksgiving to you as well.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  176. L.K says:
    @Sam Shama

    Diana,

    NO, UBL did NOT blow up ‘your city’ on 9-11, there is not the slightest evidence connecting him to 9-11.
    He actually even denied any involvement in and/or knowledge of the attacks in 2 or 3 interviews, one to Al-Jazeera, before having to flee the US airstrikes.

    The culprits for the 9-11 terror attacks are free and have been enjoying life, in fact, many in Zamerica itself.

    Btw, you have won the PCR award. Check it out!

    • Replies: @alexander
  177. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    It’s harder than (you?) most people think to get anybody on the street, much less in DC, for something that doesn’t directly affect their pocketbook or their physical person.

    I’m not so sure that the neocon policy of remaking the ME will not end up directly affecting the American people.

    The recent shoot down of a Russian bomber plane, the threats from Carl Gershman (President of NED) who once wrote:

    “Russians, too, face a choice, and Putin may find himself on the losing end not just in the near abroad but within Russia itself”

    … the provocations in Ukraine, all of which make it abundantly clear the neocons are intent on realizing their dream of initiating WW4 (they regard the Cold War as WW3).

    According to James Woolsey:

    The United States is engaged in World War 4, and that it could continue for years. This fourth world war, I think, will last considerably longer than either World Wars I or II did for us. Hopefully not the full four-plus decades of the Cold War…

    As we move toward a new Middle East over the years and, I think, over the decades to come … we will make a lot of people very nervous.

    According to Norman Podhoretz, in How to Win World War IV (which appeared in Commentary shortly after 9/11):

    [WW4], in turn, would finally give adherents of Islam a chance to set their feet on the path to greater freedom and greater prosperity – and, not so incidentally, to make their peace with the existence of Israel.

    If WW4 doesn’t motivate the American people to take to the streets, I don’t know what will.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  178. RobinG says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Could you (briefly) clarify what u and L.K. are debating? He seems to accuse you (@177) of things you never said, or did I miss that?

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  179. Kiza says:
    @RobinG

    Thanks RobinG for the compliment, please go soft on Rurik. We have to be tolerant of the small differences and sometimes just errors in expressing ourselves. I hope that you understand that I was just a bit of a hothead when I wrote my “goading comment” and that I really wanted to emphasize that there is no such thing as an “Anti-ISIS Alliance” and there never will be. US is the bad cop, France is the good cop, and Turkey is the police dog.

    Likewise, for Rurik. My best friend actually made a very similar comment to Rurik’s, but its meaning was “I want to save my ass, forget about what is right and what is wrong”. Would you enforce the true ownership of the Golan Heights at the expense of a Global Nuclear War? This is a shitty selfish pragmatism, but that is human, no trace of Hasbara in it. This is also how I understood Rurik’s comment. The Hasbara army is everywhere, but let us not turn paranoid about it – because then they win.

    Finally, I really liked your suggestions to geokat and a wonderful observation that unz.com is a bubble, just like the Washington groupthink bubble, but opposite in its orientation. Ain’t that a truth, all thanks to Mr Unz. Have a great reminder of the vacation.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  180. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    Why are you saying this to me? Go try it on at your local supermarket, where they don’t know what a neocon is. I’m trying to discuss practical strategy, and you come back with anti-war 101.

    Of course I don’t know where you live, so I suppose I shouldn’t assume that, but I can tell you the only people in the street (Black Lives Matter) have no clue what went on in Ukraine. Some, “….neocon policy of remaking the ME will not **end up directly affecting the American people. ” is totally obscure. You are talking apples and oranges. Plus the ME is too far away, and all they want here is security and good weather for shopping. And all the ‘active’ people, rallying around their presidential candidates, are getting nothing but war whoops and seem happy with that. I hope I’m not wasting my breath here.

    “Dr.Paul Craig Roberts, a great American, has coined the term “dumbsh*t Americans”, = Highly relevant!! You can hope for folks to take to the street, or you can use the available political tools.

    **It’s already affecting them, if they’d connect the dots. Don’t hold your breath.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  181. geokat62 says:

    I’m trying to discuss practical strategy, and you come back with anti-war 101

    So your practical strategy (Tulsi Gabbard’s bill, H.R. 4108 and Citizen delegations to the state offices) is going to bring an end to WW4 and eliminate the neocon/Israel firsters' stranglehold on US foreign policy?

    I'm not holding my breath.

    • Replies: @RobinG
  182. annamaria says:
    @Jim Christian

    there are no “apologists for radical Islam” on Unz Review pages.

    When people see a wrong path taken, they react to that by criticizing the leaders. If you have any hopes for the future of your kids and grandkids, you should better start trying to avoid the catastrophe of the WWIII that the war profiteers, “chosen,” and Bible Belt have been pushing upon humanity.
    You see, the US knew the flight path of plane downed by Turkey; the details were provided to the US by Russians. And then the US had provided the details to Turkey so that Turkey could shoot down the Russian plane (that was fighting Daesh) by using the US-made F-16.
    So lets’ name the apologists for radical Islam among the US’ best friends, such as the NATO member Turkey, the Saudis, Qatar, Israel (caught by providing care for jihadis), and finally, the City of London/Wall Street.
    http://news.yahoo.com/us-knew-flight-path-plane-downed-turkey-putin-202631534.html
    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=edc_1404314221

  183. Kiza says:
    @RobinG

    Sorry to interfere into your good discussion guys, I would like to add one anecdote.

    The place I come from once had a very admired leader who later became a king, because he has done some great things for the country for which he was highly admired. Unfortunately, he was also a great scumbag, liar and manipulator of everything and everybody (not only of the national enemy). Thus, his statement which is most remembered in history is one, in a booming voice from a pulpit: “Oh My Great People … !!!” and in a low voice to his entourage: “Cattle of mine…” This is the true meaning of politics, and the exact approach of the neocons/ziocons to the US and other Western citizens. If people only knew what is being done in their name!? But they do not and care not. Give them American Idol, more money to shop, that is throw them a few left over bones from the imperial adventures and you can turn foreign countries into rivers of blood, as much as they care. Just like in Ancient Rome?

    The Western rulers know this governance formula very well, yet they are stuffing up the system and making too many people pissed off, so much that pitchforks may come out one day, maybe. Till then, the Lobby rules through CIA and NSA. In other words, it has to get much worse to get any better. I hope not by means of a Global Nuclear War.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  184. RobinG says:
    @geokat62

    No, it’s not a grand solution, but it would force a public discussion. It would be one step among many. It beats waiting for a critical mass to take to the streets, and it might also encourage that.

    Plus, who knows what other wheels are in motion, Back in 2013 (when we didn’t bomb Syria) the demonstrations were a factor, but the deciding force was probably General Dempsey.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  185. @RobinG

    Early on I conceded Assad has secular (and I should have added, as well many non-Arab) Sunnis who support the regime. I provided evidence of the politicization of the data and methodology problems concerning internally displaced (with links to the materials I cite) so he might rethink his ridiculous assertions the Assad regime is of Sunni component to a degree that would nullify the fact of a break between Alawite/Christian Syria and Sunni Syria. As well I provided a good analysis of the sectarian nature of the war by a group of Harvard graduate students (@85) to back my assertion (@42 to Fran) Sunni Syria has been broken away from Alawite/Christian Syria.

    L.K.’s quoting @ 177 “President Assad – there’s quite a number of the population, maybe as many as half, if not more, who stand behind him” would seem at odds with his assertions. If roughly half of the population were behind Assad, it follows when LK asserts this includes a particularly a large proportion of the Sunni population, it doesn’t add up. Syria is (or was, pre-refugee) about 15% non-Sunni Muslim (mainly Alawite and closely related Shia), about 10% non-Arab aligned Sunni Kurds (a VERY FEW of them are al-Qaida types) and roughly 10% Christian. There are about one to two million (using the problematic refugee statistics) externally displaced refugees in Turkey, and a million or so each in Jordan and Lebanon. With the exception of Lebanon, where it would be a mix, it’s likely a safe assumption most of the externally displaced in those countries would be Sunni Arabs and a few Sunni Turkmen (a tiny minority in Syria.) Turkey is generally hostile to non-Sunnis as well as Sunni Kurds, Jordan is predominately Sunni Arab and Lebanon is mixed but would be attractive to many of the ethnic Palestinians from Syria. As well, the Syria-Palestinian Sunni population appears to be divided in its loyalties.

    Given the preceding, its difficult to imagine LK’s assertions could be accurate and what he consistently avoids is my context pointing to the sectarian nature of the conflict. Certainly there will be few Christians, Shia and Alawite left in the larger areas of Syria controlled by Sunni extremist militia and just as likely it can assumed many Sunni Arabs who wished to have no part in the conflict overtaking their areas would find exile in surrounding countries preferable to being internally displaced in the areas controlled by Assad where the indigenous population is largely Alawite, Shia and Christian. Also, internally displaced Christians from elsewhere in Syria would largely be sheltering in ‘regime’ controlled territory.

    It follows, the Sunnis sheltering with Assad’s people would be largely non-Arab Sunnis, some secular Sunnis and they would not constitute the near majority or majority of Assad’s support that LK has asserted. He’s in it for the argument rather than the facts and now we’ve sorted that, here’s to his intelligence level, he can chose to be liberal or conservative, makes no never-mind to me:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2014/10/09/liberals/

    Insofar as Rurik,, it’s amazing he has otherwise demonstrably intelligent people sticking up for him with his anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi undertones. Quite the accomplishment, that.

  186. @Ronald Thomas West

    ps

    RE my stating “Insofar as Rurik,, it’s amazing he has otherwise demonstrably intelligent people sticking up for him with his anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi undertones. Quite the accomplishment, that”

    I should have added the thought even if he were perchance not Hasbara, he couldn’t be doing the Hasbara a bigger favor than embedding his views in Phil’s comments forum –

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @Rurik
  187. alexander says:
    @Sam Shama

    Dear Diana,

    Just several days prior to the attacks on Paris, ISIS launched a vicious terror attack in Lebanon, killing 43 and wounding 300 more.

    Is your “solution” then ,to bomb the Lebanese?…..they are mostly Muslim ?

    Just several days before that, a Russian passenger jet was attacked by ISIS…blowing 224 innocent people out of the sky…

    Is your “solution” there, to bomb the Russians ?……they are mostly Christian ?

    Before we put troops on the ground, anywhere in the world, to lay down their lives for our country……I want us to be sure we get the facts right on why we are there and just who the enemy is ?

    Don’t you ?

  188. Rurik says:
    @Jim Christian

    10 years under Bush1 and Clinton. Here nor there at this point, none of it matters.

    but it does Jim

    the way things are today are a direct consequence of what was done yesterday. We can not escape the realities that we’ve created.

    dropped on Syria in the name of France. France’s, really all of Western Europe’s problem, is within Western Europe.

    But Western Europe takes its marching orders from Washington, DC. You have got to know that. If DC didn’t want Syria bombed, they wouldn’t have been bombed. If DC didn’t want ISIS created out of the carnage of Iraq and Libya, they (our leaders in DC) would not have armed and funded those savages. They are our Frankenstein’s monster. We must accept our responsibility for them, as long as it’s our government that continues to protect and arm and fund them.

    They have a decision to make. They can live under Islam, or Western culture. Caliphate or Feminist Liberalism/Socialism. It’s that simple.

    They must do what DC tells them to do. If Germany decided to expel the Muslims from its lands, they’d have to answer to DC, don’t you see? We still occupy that country. They don’t fart unless it’s with permission. What do you suppose would be the reaction to Germany loading up its Muslims into train cars and shipping them out of the country? Hollywood and our entire media and our politicians would all be apoplectic with white-fisted, crimson faced rage. The entire (occupied) western world would screech NAIZIS with one voice. There’d be demands of boycotts and S. African type pariah state isolation. Followed by threats and talk of extremist right wing terrorists in Germany targeting Americans and the French and British. Don’t you see Jim? The dying West is not committing suicide, it’s being murdered.

    Now that we let it get to a point our parents never would have, Europe must consider now, how to live and under what condition.

    the world is the way it is because of the way our parents left it to us

    WWII’s outcome determined how things were going to be going forward. And the main thing that was determined is that there is no place in the world for white racism. White racism and white racists (redundant) who want to keep their countries white = Nazis

    or haven’t you been paying attention?

    We don’t owe Syrians a place in the first world. It isn’t our problem

    it was us that destroyed Syria Jim. America and her Israeli first neocons. Is it moral to deliberately destroy people’s countries and then cynically watch those people die in the rubble? But on one thing I agree with you here is that it wasn’t Germany that did that. Germany is no longer the country of exceptional people. Today that is America or USA! to be more specific. And if there were a karma’ all those Syrians should be resettled in the Hamptons and Martha’s Vineyard and the wealthy suburbs surrounding Washington, DC. Not Germany. But then as I mentioned, Germany is a vassal state, and they’re Nazis too, so they (and all white [racist] countries) must suffer the consequences of their racism Jim. (with the glaring exception of Israel who must do the opposite of what all the Christian white countries are forced to do- for their own good ; )

    Since we didn’t solve the problem like the grownups of the WW2 generation, we now have decisions to make.

    as I said, it was the WW2 generation that left us with the paradigm that whiteness = racism

    and our collective guilt for slavery and the Holocaust

    that’s their legacy to us

    that’s why things are the way they are Jim

  189. alexander says:
    @L.K

    L.K.

    I have to agree with you on this one….considering the fact the FBI does too.

    UBL was on the top of our “terror watch list” in connection to the attack on the USS Cole while it was harbored in the port of Aden, Yemen, in 2000.

    Al Qaeda claimed responsibility for the attack.

    When the FBI was questioned as to why the 9-11 attacks were not included in the Bin Laden dossier….they said there was simply no evidence to support the claim.

    I remember reading it , like, nine years ago.

  190. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    Honestly, I am not sure why other people interpret you as Hasbara,

    actually I find it kind of hilarious

    this from the clearly hysterical Robin:

    I’d even say (as if it were mine to give) ‘hey, Israel, go ahead and take the Golan Heights’ if it would bring peace and eventually sanity.

    It’s not his to give away, and why is it his to think like that?

    if you read my specific reply to her @162, you see that when she says “It’s not his to give away, and why is it his to think like that?”, it almost seems like she’s becoming unhinged.

    anyways

    I do get apoplexy when I hear a Russian general talk about the “International Law”.

    I can only assume they’re aiming their words at Asia and places that still consider the phrase relevant. And or being wry.

  191. geokat62 says:
    @Kiza

    In other words, it has to get much worse to get any better. I hope not by means of a Global Nuclear War.

    I agree completely… and I have written as much in many previous comments. If we are to believe the pundits, given the current and foreseeable demographics in the USA, it appears the presidency will be a lock-in for the Democrats. This means that Killery (the darling of the neocons) will be the next president, which more or less guarantees things will get a lot worse. Maybe that’s why Joe Webb has predicted people will be taking to the streets with pitchforks in 3 or so years.

    • Replies: @Kiza
  192. Rurik says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    his anti-Semitic and neo-Nazi undertones.

    wait a minute! I thought I was an Israeli Hasbara troll?

    so now I’m an anti-Semite and Nazi?!

    which is it Custer?

  193. Rurik says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    I should have added the thought even if he were perchance not Hasbara

    Oh my lord!

    why don’t you just admit that you don’t agree with my point of view and don’t much care for the way I make mush of some of your arguments?

    It’d be more dignified than your preposterous and hysterical lunacies about how I’m a paid Israeli troll or a Nazi or an anti-Semite or a double-agent Jacobin, or is it Jacobite?

    just say it! I don’t like Rurik because I’m Ronal Thomas West and I’m smaaart and I want some respect !

  194. geokat62 says:
    @RobinG

    No, it’s not a grand solution…

    Glad we see eye to eye on this one. Look, with a population of ~320 million people, mobilizing 1 million people should be within the realm of possibility. I even think Phil’s organization, The Council for the National Interest, whose president is Alison Weir and whose Executive Director is our very own Phil Giraldi, could take the lead in organizing such an event. Just imagine the impact it would have if 1 million Americans were to converge on Washington DC carrying placards with the 10 proposals for change I suggested. Now I agree that the timing is not quite right under an Obama Administration, but as I alluded to in a previous comment to Kiza, a Killery administration is more or less a shoe-in… so well into her first term, she should be putting the finishing touches on implementing the final stages of the neocon strategy of remaking the ME. This should be the optimal time to act, which should provide ample time for planning such an event.

    What do you think, Phil. Do you see any merit in this suggestion… or am I just dreaming in Technicolor?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  195. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    Hi Kiza,

    for the record:

    Would you enforce the true ownership of the Golan Heights at the expense of a Global Nuclear War? This is a shitty selfish pragmatism,

    I personally have nothing to fear for myself from any of this. I am very far removed from any and all of the immediate or potential consequences of these wars and insanity.

    It isn’t because I’m afraid of getting hurt by these wars that I post here. Rather, it’s because I know why they’re being waged and by whom and I also know enough about history to know why and by whom the wars and bloody insanity of the last century were fought- and I’m horrified at all the mindless, needless suffering and slaughter of all of these wars for the fun and profit of a few while innocent people are ground up like so much meat.

    If it were a righteous war fought for noble reasons, I suspect I’d be the very first in line. I don’t and never have shirked a fight. It’s not my nature to be timid. But I’m older now and so I’m doing my fighting at a computer keyboard, but I’m not typing to save my own arse, but to try to keep my species from acting like the upright walking apes that lurk in their hindbrain. We just aren’t that far removed from the jungle Kiza. Scratch a human and there’s a barred canine toothed savage just under the surface. Only today he’s got mini-nukes at the press of a megalomaniacal ethno-centrism tribalism on steroids id button. It’s not an optimistic picture.

    so, hopefully our better angels will prevail

    and I’m just trying to be one small voice in the wilderness urging humanity to listen to those soft if persistent words of reason and rationality and simple human decency

    • Replies: @Kiza
  196. Kiza says:
    @geokat62

    The only way I can envisage people in the US getting out on he streets with pitchforks is if their bank balances, their pensions, their medical insurance and everything else disappear. The way things are now, this is almost certain rather than possible. The system is so broke, that it is not funny. And instead of being corrected, the system is continuously being made worse and pillaged in so many additional ways. There is no way in this universe that the current Federal Reserve managed financial system could survive for much longer. There will be huge financial fireworks, after which anything is possible.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  197. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Hi Robin, RTW, Geo and Kiza,
    I was just going over these exchanges between you folks and surely we realise that the path we choose to follow, is the true one to the civilising process. I think geokat’s idea of a million man march to DC would be a daunting task (but I can’t be sure, since I have never been involved in any such). I am an incrementalist and feel that small steps are preferable, which over time can lead to that grander goal. Of course, I might be wrong.

    In New York, every social event I attend, I sense that many of influence are in the early grips of that primeval urge to let loose the dogs of war. This in the City of the liberal, anti-war and of the enlightened class! The Paris incident is on everyone’s mind. Obama is seen as a man quite inconsequential at the moment and the preparations are being made for Hillary to shape the world according to the images of choice.

    Robin’s observation regarding the ecosystem of UR being a bit of a bubble I feel is basically accurate. I say this upon noting the reactions of people when I espouse the thoughts and positions I glean from PG’s articles and your comments. I am increasingly confronted either with mild annoyance or outright hostility.

    So my basic contention is that it will take time for people to see the light.

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @geokat62
  198. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    Please accept my apology for a misunderstanding, my comment of “shitty selfish pragmatism” was related to my friend’s opinion (he is a friend, so I could say it to him and he pays me back) . I had no idea about your motive for making a similar statement. I can now try to understand based on your explanation.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  199. L.K says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    RTW goes: “He’s in it for the argument rather than the facts”

    You r projecting your tendencies upon my humble person.

    RTW goes: “It follows, the Sunnis sheltering with Assad’s people would be largely non-Arab Sunnis, some secular Sunnis and they would not constitute the near majority or majority of Assad’s support that LK has asserted.”

    What a silly person you are!! You have simply ignored all the evidence I have advanced which contradicts your beliefs. Obviously the majority who support Assad are a collection of minorities and Syrian Sunnis, both secular & religious moderates.

    Who are then the sunnis who r a majority in the Syrian Army and NDF? Kurds?
    Take my hand, so u don’t fall flat on your face; they are syrian sunni Arabs.
    There are few kurds with the SAA and NDF, they have formed their own militia.
    I remember reading at RT a report by a Russian female reporter who was embedded with Syrian Army soldiers in Darayya, a mid-sized city near Damascus which had a sunni arab majority(like Damascus itself). Almost all of the people fled the terrorists towards government held areas. The russian reporter stated that she had found many devout sunni arab soldiers among the syiran troops fighting Nusra and other bandits at Darayya.

    Riddle me this: Why is ZUSA so adamant that Assad must go? Why not agree with an internationally monitored election in Syria in which Assad would be allowed to participate?

    The reason is simple: Zusa and its partners in crime fear Assad would very likely WIN such an election.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
  200. Sam Shama says:
    @Kiza

    Hi Kiza,
    I agree that people in the U.S. will react when pocketbooks are hurt. However that outcome is not when the economy has 4-5%% measured official unemployment or 15% real underemployment subsidised by the state. That is the case now, by design. A massive war (read 10% of GDP spent might change that, but the direction of that change is uncertain)

    The reasons are simple. It has been well known in the western economic model that about a 2% core inflation with about 10-15% of the population underemployed (with the dole) is the ideal state of the world, one in which upheavals are almost guaranteed to be absent. The fact is the US can follow fiscal and distributive policies that can credibly generate a 3%+ real growth in output. At 3%+ real growth the US is really unassailable. Most people don’t realise that because they cannot see relative potentials. At 3%+ growth it adds about a 1/3 of a Germany, 1/2 of a Russian and factors of smaller european economies each year! The scale of U.S is not comparable on a historical basis. China is larger and will overtake in size, but both countries suffer from huge mis-allocations and it affects them in varying degrees.

    I will say this: regardless of what you think about the organisation of Central banks, that is what the world chose decades ago and the effects are what we witness and experience today. No matter if you believe that “Jews are getting their pockets stuffed with money given to them by the CBs”, the overall fact is undeniable.

    A simple model might help illustrate the matter: Suppose we have an island with 1000 inhabitants including a King who issues “money” to be used for exchanging goods and services amongst his people. The King claims a percentage of all exchanges (therefore the output) produced each year to provide public goods (roads, army, etc). Its an island in a steady state condition. Due to technological advances the goods and services produced had far outstripped what people could consume and more and more got saved. They were saved in the form of the King’s currency, sitting in the King’s vault. Prices of all goods and services fall, and they keep falling.

    The King is in a quandary. Despite the fact that there are great savings, people are generally unhappy. Why? He wonders. How can I make them happier? Well one way is to print more money, thus reducing its value relative to all goods and make people go and exchange their savings for goods!

    So he does that. He prints money. And then some more. But strangely the price of goods do not go up and nor the value of the currency go down!

    It has been a decade since he tried that experiment but the results are the same. Until one day it strikes him that the savings are only in the names of about 50 people in the Island, who are fat, old and debauched. They could not consume any more. The 950 others had food and shelter, but were strained in their lives. They had no power to change the savings structure. The King then gets the eureka moment and realises that redistribution of lop-sided savings is the only true answer. Increasing currency supply will do nothing since (1) production of goods and services outstrip demand by all 1000 taken together and (2) the fat cannot consume any more (3) The King realises that he cannot bring about the change since his authority to engage in re-distribution was taken away a long time ago and vested in the hands of something called the Congress.

    • Replies: @Ronald Thomas West
    , @Kiza
  201. anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    Due to technological advances the goods and services produced had far outstripped what people could consume and more and more got saved.

    or, more accurately, due to a fundamental, systemic flaw in the model

    Alan Greenspan, 2008: there is a flaw in the model . . .”

    (3) The King realises that he cannot bring about the change since his authority to engage in re-distribution was taken away a long time ago and vested in has been found out; the jig is up. The People, wielding pitchforks, wrest power from the hands of something called the Congress.

  202. Rurik says:

    Why not agree with an internationally monitored election in Syria in which Assad would be allowed to participate?

    they’d never allow it LK

    All of the available polling that has been done by Western polling firms in Syria has indicated strongly that the current President of Syria, Bashar al-Assad, would easily win any free and fair election in that country.

    the United States Government demands that Assad be simply removed from office, and not allowed on the ballot, if an election for President is to be held at all in Syria.

    http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/11/u-s-demands-there-be-no-democracy-in-syria.html

    regardless of the will of the people

    when Gadhafi was running Libya, it was the most prosperous state on the African continent, and so NATO and the ZioUS decided that he had to go, so they sent bombers and they killed him and today Libya is a failed state by every metric. So the US and our politicians and media are all silent and happy about it now. Job well done and all of that.

    The Shah was perhaps the most hated man to ever lead a state, but the ZioUS kept their quisling and his SAVAK there as long as they could. Democracy you know ; )
    Heck, speaking of SAVAK, they run their own known torture camp at Gitmo these days.

    we’ve come a long way in a very short time from the America I grew up in.

    today the regime in Kabul is one of the most corrupt the world has ever known, (and that’s saying a lot!), but the ZioUS keeps them propped up and sending the CIA trafficked super cheap heroin to every corner of the western world’s children they can.

    Putin’s popularity is in the high 80 percentiles. But if the ZioUS could do it, who doubts they’d assassinate him and impose another Yeltsin type drunken stooge so they could loot the country dry again?

    it vexes me that my country is run by fiends that are hell bent on imposing an Orwellian nightmare on the planet’s people

    • Replies: @L.K
  203. annamaria says:
    @Sam Shama

    “Obama is seen as a man quite inconsequential at the moment and the preparations are being made for Hillary to shape the world according to the images of choice.”

    It is highly doubtful that Mrs. Clinton of Kiev & Benghazi fame (and other “Putin is new Hitler” revelations) is able to contribute anything positive. Not only because she has been reshaped by the Borg into a subhuman, but also because she and Obama are subservient to the CIA. This is a security state. See the use of Turkey as a patsy to shoot the Russian jet that was fighting ISIS. The details of the jet’s path (time and location) were provided to the US. It seems that the US “services” have organized the “event.” Turkey was left to suffer consequences.
    http://magiclougie.blogspot.com/2015/11/russian-president-says-usa-knew.html

  204. @L.K

    Riddle me this: Why is ZUSA so adamant that Assad must go? Why not agree with an internationally monitored election in Syria in which Assad would be allowed to participate?

    1) With the minorities behind Assad together with a minority of the majority Sunni Arab Syrians, Assad would likely make it a close election. But if he won or lost, the losing side would not accept the outcome. That’s the nature of aggravated sectarianism. And it is why Syria is a broken state where a ‘majority of minorities’ regime survives; Alawite/Shia, Christian, non-Arab Sunni and a minority made up of secular Sunni Arabs.

    2) ‘Assad must go’ (from ’empire’ point of view) because he’s not a compliant western puppet.

    3) ‘Assad must go’ because the ego of the western leaders can’t bear to humiliated.

    4) ‘Assad must go’ because the Israelis, Saudis, Turks and Qatari leadership are terrified of what he’d be inclined to try and do to them when/if he could turn his attention their way with a Syria (or surviving piece of it) firmly aligned with Hezbollah and Iran. An ‘eye for an eye’ is the regional mantra.

    ^ the preceding are not listed in a particular order for any reason, they’re all pretty much equal.

  205. Kiza says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hello Sam, sorry I am in a different time zone, so I could not reply immediately.

    I do agree with your simple story. However, firstly, I would challenge your notion that the king’s Minister of Finance was so uneducated and dumb that he did not know beforehand that by printing so much new money and giving it to the chosen, he would not manage to create inflation, as the deflation continued. Did he not know that printing money and giving it to 5 chosen subject (not 50 out of a thousand), he would create a two tier market:
    1) asset inflation and
    2) ordinary goods deflation?
    All of a sudden, the chosen have too much money and nothing new to spend it on. So their old favorites: the stocks, the expensive artworks, the islands in the Pacific etc – their prices explode. All the while all other goods keep sinking in price. Of course, to the troubles of the other 995 citizens one could add that they have no jobs any more because the kingdom’s industry has been outsourced by the chosen 5 to the kingdom of Katai and other kingdoms beyond the sea. The problem is not industrial overproduction, the problem is the falling income of the 995.

    So, what is the solution? Taking money from 5 and giving it to 995? Printing new money and giving it to 995 this time (which the Finance Minister called “helicopter money”, whilst giving it to the chosen 5 before it was a “trailer truck money”)?

    Well, printing money to manipulate values is wrong by the definition of money as means of exchange. The only thing the king can be sure of is that printing money will cause distortions, as it always has. Printing of money is the re-distribution of wealth, primarily from those who believe in king’s money (the 995), to those 5 who do not believe in it and convert it into assets as soon as they get it. This will only lead to no-one believing in the king’s money any more. The 5 can manipulate things only so much, until the 995 wisen up.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  206. Kiza says:
    @Rurik

    GMO Turkey, pfuuj. The feasters will spend the night in the toilets with upset stomachs.

  207. Sam Shama says:
    @Kiza

    Hey Kiza,
    No big deal about the time zones.

    Remember though the distortion in extreme uneven savings (wealth) started much before the king started “money printing” in a large scale. That distortion was due to the tax laws (and others) that greatly favoured the 50 (or the 5 in your example). The King’s Finance Minister was guilty………

    • Replies: @Kiza
  208. Kiza says:
    @Sam Shama

    Agreed. But, your story also goes bad at the beginning – it was not a kingdom. A king would have taken a much better care of the state finances and the taxes. As a friend of mine says: “a king means one thief and his small entourage sucking the blood of us peasants, but a pretend democracy means a whole class of thieves sucking us dry.” Thus, your 50 is more realistic than my 5. It is a class of financial leaches.

    But, let us wait for this:

    The 5 can manipulate things only so much, until the 995 wisen up.

    that is, for the pitchforks to come out in the kingdom. It should not be too long now, not because they will wisen up then because a complete system crash and total loss of everything they have will wake them up.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  209. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    I don’t see why militarily supporting the sovereign Syrian government against armed separatist movements (including ISIS and the Kurds, among others) would in any manner constitute “meddling”. On the contrary, it would represent an effort to stabilize the region. Thus far all the US has done is invade Middle Eastern nations and underwrite insurgencies — hence the present murderous mess.

  210. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Judging by Phil’s silence, I have no other choice but to conclude that RobinG’s practical strategy of introducing bills and citizen delegations to state offices is the preferred route to take.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  211. Sam Shama says:
    @Ronald Thomas West

    Thanks Ron. I keep trying to make people understand that I have no hidden agenda when I try to present the operations of the Fed (which is ‘cloaked’ with so much mystery) and separate its monetary policy from the malfeasance of Congress. Some day….

  212. Sam Shama says:
    @Kiza

    Hey Kiza,
    Well yes a benevolent king is much more preferable (I have thought so for some time and which is why I wish for a strong POTUS). Our ‘democracy’ is badly damaged and I cannot see a clear path out of the quagmire.

    I doubt if pitchforks (real or rhetorical) will come out in the U.S. People are more or less well-fed, clueless and lazy….

    • Replies: @Kiza
  213. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    … and the preparations are being made for Hillary…

    So, Sam, do you agree with me the gatekeepers will never allow a strong POTUS, like your revered Donald, to assume power?

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  214. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    That is the shape of things to come; or at least the shape of things desired by the NY gliterati. I still hold hope….

  215. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Sam, while we disagree about many things, I still respect you for being honest.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  216. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    It appears that People Power may not be dead, after all:

    Thousands attend protests against UK air strikes against Syria.

    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/nov/28/thousands-attend-protests-against-uk-airstrikes-on-syria

    Now, if we can only get the American people to get their minds off of the Kardashians, fantasy sports, and their favourite sitcom, there may be hope.

  217. Clyde says:
    @Rurik

    it almost sounds fun if it weren’t for every single word I’ve written since I’ve been here has been an attempt to expose Zionist treachery in one form or another. Rather odd don’t you think that I’m being accused of actually working for Bibi and the crew.

    Does the Likud pay by the word? Because you are rather windy.

  218. Kilo 4/11 says:

    “ISIS is arguably the creation of the power vacuum that the United States allowed to develop in the Middle East after it invaded Iraq and then took steps to destabilize the government of Syria.”

    Mr. Giraldi, a sincere question – anything to this, or just Israeli propaganda?:

    “Radical Islamism began with the invasion of the USSR into Afghanistan,” the Israeli analyst says. “All the more radical Islamists including Ben Laden came out of the struggle with the Soviet Union. The second push to the growth of radicalism was given by the invasion of Russia into Chechnya.” In both cases, the Islamists saw Moscow as the enemy.
    At the same time, “the largest number of ISIS militants are being recruited from Russia and the other countries of the post-Soviet space,” he says. “In part, this is connected with the fact that over the course of many years, the Russian special services have ‘pushed’ their own Islamists toward Syria and Iraq, putting before them the choice: emigration or jail or murder.”
    %99%20in%20Creation%20of%20ISIS%20than%20Stalin%20did%20in%20Rise%20of%20Nazis,%20Shmulyevich%20Says.htm
    (Sorry, blew the link; it’s from the Interpreter last week)

  219. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    Geo thanks.

    I must tell you though, reading UR is not a particularly soothing experience for jewish individuals, even ones that are against the uber-zionist enterprise. You have people like Rurik, among many others, whose sympathies are clearly with fascists and neo-nazis, and are waiting for the day when jews can be lined up and shot. All that is wrong, negative or disagreeable, all of it, and I mean it quite literally, in their reckoning, has at least a jewish instigator in the background. This is what the old-timers have been warning me about. In the end the world is composed of tribals, no matter how hard they wax loquaciously about fighting injustice, intolerance etc.

    This place is getting to be rather too much of an anti-jewish sewer for me, and I think I am going to use my free time in other pursuits.

    So I bid you Adieu, to Phil Giraldi, Ron Unz, Fran McAdam, RobinG, RTW, annamarina, Kiza, Seamus Padraig, and all others I have had the privilege to interact with. Many of you are dedicated, moral individuals and I wish you all the best.

    Sam

  220. Kiza says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam, the problem is not only with “Democracy” then with “Presidency” too. A kingdom is inheritable, thus the king is a parasite who wants to leave behind a lively host for his genetic progeny to feast upon. The President rips-off whatever he can over his presidency (or makes favors to the class of financial leaches whose paybacks his first generation offspring will enjoy).

    An enlightened inheritable autocracy would be the best social system ever invented, if it were not for the famous “Third Generation Curse”, the progressive genetic decline of progeny. Thus the social system gets cursed by the biology: a great king is followed by a mediocre king, followed by a moron.

    There are some good discussions on such topics here on unz.com.

  221. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    I understand, Sam.

    UR won’t be quite the same without you. I must admit to looking forward to coming home from work to read especially your responses to most of my comments.

    When you wrote, “I do not support any longer what passes for Zionism, nor am I willing to pine for what it used to be. It is an immoral cause,” I knew that you too were a dedicated, moral individual.

    I wish you all the best, Sam.

    It was indeed a privilege debating with such a formidable Balliolite.

  222. Art says:
    @Jim Christian

    “The characters bad-mouthing America haven’t the imagination to consider life under a caliphate”

    Hey Jim,

    Stop the BS – you say we must chose between a warmonger US government run by the Zionist Jew or a caliphate run by Wahhabism.

    Good people chose neither!

    Art

  223. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    “This is what the old-timers have been warning me about. In the end the world is composed of tribals, no matter how hard they wax loquaciously about fighting injustice, intolerance etc.”

    Sam,

    You disappoint me – you have given up the good fight. Your old-timers are wrong – they bring evil – it is they who thrive on hate – can’t you see that the country those old-timers have created, is the picture of combative evil tribalism. Most tribal countries are not like Israel.

    ”We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.”

    Clearly, you do not believe in those words Sam. Your old-timers believe the opposite.

    There is so much more that could be said – but why?

    Sam – I think you should leave us – go to Israel – you are home there.

    Sadly – Art

  224. @Sam Shama

    Sam, I try to engage with the issues Phil brings up in his articles, which is generally a productive and educational experience. I’m not sure what to make of the subsequent commentary bar fight scene that is chairs being thrown about and mirrors behind the bar being broken but I assume it has some entertainment value for those participating, as if they are in a Sam Peckinpah movie. I have to admit, I don’t get the over the top hysterical anti semitism; Jewish people really do run the gamut as far as character and morality are concerned, so they will be represented among the best and the worst of humanity, as are all any of us are related to. I have to guess there is a proportion of genuine nuts who post, encouraged because they can, and some number of hasbarists anxious to encourage them in it to tar the main articles by association, since the issues raised there aren’t as easily dismissed.

  225. RobinG says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam,
    No one can blame you for escaping the sewer of the comment section, but, like all cesspools, it is roiling with both nutrients and pathogens. Your reason, that it’s getting too anti-Semitic, is funny. I’ve only been here since July, but the vitriol has been pretty level. Plus, while Jews may get the brunt, (either real or 2nd degree hasbara, as Fran suggested) this is not a soothing place for anybody. Even if you’re not on the nationality/ideology/religion hit-list, any sane, moral, ethical person must feel disheartened that there is such overt hate in the world — and in our chosen corner of the world.

    But take heart and slough off the trash-talk. (I always wondered what my mother’s dating preferences had to do with volley-ball.) It’s too easy to be a big man behind a keyboard. And just as they risk nothing with their slings and arrows, you are at a safe distance. (BTW, there are good reasons for being anonymous online: I don’t want these creeps knowing where I live.) Also, as a Jew, you are less likely to be the victim of hate-induced violence than Blacks or Latinos or Muslims, or haven’t you noticed that venom here at UR?

    There seems to have been an arc to your story here. At first you were critical of Phil (castigating him as anti-Semitic?), but now you bid him a respectful farewell. And thus, after your sojourn among the sewer rats, you return to your tribe. Perhaps your mission here is accomplished.

    The question is, what was the overall effect of your being here? How is the vociferous squabbling of the commenters perceived by the greater community of readers (presumably a much larger group)? Do these debates serve any useful purpose? (I.E., is there any point to your checking back once in a while?) Because a friend of mine admonished me about the futility of getting sucked into a cyber black hole. Your leaving has made me itchy to do likewise.

    Ron Unz, or Phil, can you tell us how many distinct readers there were of this article, for instance? And any other available data. Thanks.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Sam Shama
  226. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    “All of the available polling that has been done by Western polling firms in Syria has indicated strongly that the current President of Syria, Bashar al-Assad, would easily win any free and fair election in that country.”

    Exactly, Rurik. Obviously the US elites don’t give a damn about Democracy anyway, otherwise they would not be busy destroying it at home in the first place!

    Rurik writes: “it vexes me that my country is run by fiends that are hell bent on imposing an Orwellian nightmare on the planet’s people”

    A pity there are way too few americans who realize that, a real pity.

    One thing that makes most americans so insouciant about the actions of those fiends you mention, is the fact that ZUSA has been fighting its numerous wars of Empire in other peoples countries. Americans don’t know what its like to have their country devastated by modern war.
    The other thing is the end of the draft. All the avg zamerican has to do in order to be a good ‘patriot’, is to put on a ‘i support our military’ bumper sticker and that’s about it.
    Some professional soldier will go off and murder for the fiends who hold power under some BS mikey mouse propaganda stunt.
    However, if those fiends in power keep poking the bear – and the dragon – it may yet turn ugly for the avg john doe in zamerica.
    Russia for one has the capacity of turning zusa into so much radioactive wasteland.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  227. L.K says:
    @RobinG

    robingG goes: “Because a friend of mine admonished me about the futility of getting sucked into a cyber black hole. Your leaving has made me itchy to do likewise.”

    Yawwnnn, since according to u, the comment section here is a “sewer”, and the tribalist sam shama leaving(after so much whining) has made u ‘itchy to do likewise’, just go away.
    No need to annouce it.

  228. Kiza says:
    @Sam Shama

    Sam, comm on, please do not give up. I wrote before that unz.com is a long run search for truth, not a battle.

    There are some a-holes here, so what!? Maybe to suggest the wisdom of Mr Unz to include button: “Commenters to Ignore”. Mr Unz does not want to filter out anyone and this is the correct approach. Thus anti-semites and Hasbara should be treated according to our sensibilities.

    BTW, Rurik claims that there are two Ruriks posting here. This is not impossible, I know that some Hasbara has taken my nick on another zine and started posting rubbish.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  229. Sam Shama says:
    @RobinG

    Hi Robin/Geo/Fran/Kiza/Art
    Not entirely weaned off UR, I decided to check this page, and I find these kind words, insightful words from you, Robin, Fran, Geokat, Kiza and Art [although Art prefers a healthy distance separating my presence, cyber miles not sufficing, by nautical ones, all the way to Tel Aviv!]

    My sojourn here was indeed something of an arc, the beginnings marked by quite a baptism by fire [can a jew be baptised?] for I was recommended to this webzine by a gentleman with a wicked sense of humour [“a really valuable collection, should you seek a calming read after work“]. He being rather familiar with my liberal and non-ethnic proclivities, wanted to provide me with a taste of viewpoints somewhat discordant with my own! I started off with subterfuge, arguing the uber-zionist positions, noting the counterarguments, until I decided to shed the disguise [you can ask Geokat]. Pleasantly though, I encountered many sterling individuals. It is as you said ” roiling with both nutrients and pathogens”.

    I think I will take your suggestion and check in on occasion and see if there is anything I can contribute. [I doubt if any soul will revise their views, even on the face of evidence].

    P.S.: When I alluded to tribalism, my intention was to point readers to the fact that a random sampling of commentary at the UR will surely demonstrate that jews are not the solitary group of offenders.

    I however remain steadfast in my view that the Lobby being extraordinarily powerful, and therefore a deleterious influence on the American fabric, needs to be checked. That is my endeavour – to any smallish extent I can influence that outcome.

    • Replies: @geokat62
  230. @Sam Shama

    As high an opinion you have of your talents, Shama, you will never surpass the Bard (even if he was a goyische) — in this case, when it comes to whiny Judaic kvetching, self-pity..

    So you should probably have written:

    I am a Jew. Hath not a Jew eyes? Hath not a Jew hands,
    (etcetera, etcetera)
    If you prick us, do we not bleed? (etcetera, etcetera)

    Poor Shylock, the moneylender. Such a sweet guy. And everybody hated his guts just for being a Jew. Oy vey…

    So, you’re really not going to grace our presence any more, Shama? Really? If you’re leaving, maybe you could take that Geokat slimeball with you as well…

    So I bid you Adieu

    Good riddance to bad rubbish.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Sam Shama
    , @geokat62
  231. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    You have people like Rurik, among many others, whose sympathies are clearly with fascists and neo-nazis, and are waiting for the day when jews can be lined up and shot

    well, if you’re allowed to say that, and behind my back

    then let me just say to you Sam , fuck you

    you’re a (known, exposed) liar and a sniveling coward

    crawl off to your little crybaby hole, having been exposed as an unscrupulous liar and coward and dishonest human turd that you are- just because I say some things that are true that you don’t like me saying

    create your own little sandbox and then talk to yourself and create imaginary opponents that can say ‘the Jews control the Fed’, and then you can ban them and screech red-faced at your computer screen “anti-Semite! Nazi! until you’re blue in the face

    or .. you can try honest, respectful discourse that allows for people telling the truth about things even if you don’t want them to be able to, and you can try to counter those things with thoughtful and well-reasoned arguments, but that would mean accepting on occasion that you’re mistaken about some things- but your tender little ego just can’t deal with that, can it? Better to try to smear people’s good names with outrages lies and disgusting character attacks.
    But that’s the beauty of an Internet forum, is that when you tell lies about someone else, they can call you on it. Huh?

  232. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    Hey LK,

    Occasionally I’ll check my name for replies to me so I can reply back if that’s being called for. But often I don’t see other’s replies (like yours), just so you know.

    I stumbled back here just sort of curious how it all ended

    Anyways, I agree with all you say. Americans are hopelessly dis-informed, and it isn’t because they’re evil, but because they’re sheep, like most people. Our leadership is a different story however ; )

  233. Rurik says:
    @Kiza

    Hi Kiza,

    as you once mentioned, these discussions often turn too personal and become a distraction

    but when people like Sam start saying that I want to see all Jews lined up against a wall and shot, then I am forced to point out what a lying POS he is.

    Poor Sam wants to have the power to control the parameters of discussion, and say certain things are off limits, and that if you cross those limits as he sees them, then he wants you to come into harm. Well that’s all it takes for someone like me. Tell me I;m not allowed to say or think certain thoughts that are verboten, and yep, that’s right! That’s exactly where you’ll find me. Every time. ; )

    in this thread there wasn’t anyone posting as me but me. I said everything I’ve said here (I think, I didn’t go back and check) but so far as I know I’ve been the only person posting as Rurik for some time here at Unz, and I stand by every word. Proudly and unapologetically.

    Every

    Word

    And will continue to do so unless someone can show how I’m in error

    but what will not work, what will never work is when some arrogant asshole thinks he has the right to shut down ideas that he considers beyond the pale. And thinks that threats or smears or outrageous lies are the way to do it.

    No

    I don’t respond to smears or threats or lies

    no matter how many the sniveling little coward wants to spew

    for the record ; )

    .

    {with apologies for bad language, but I don’t think anything I said was even close to the rotten, craven, disgusting lies and blood libel smears that were said about me}

  234. Rurik says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    whiny Judaic kvetching, self-pity..

    so beautifully said you must have been channeling the Bard himself

    well done JR!

    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky
  235. Sam Shama says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    The pitfalls of quoting Shakespeare, especially when employed by the uncouth and unread, is an unpleasant yet instructive moment. I know my Shakespeare.

    It falls on me therefore, Revusky, to inform you farbisener shmuck, that in the “Merchant”, Shakespeare started out by unrelentingly chastising the Jew. Except in that part you quoted. That was the turnaround, when he clearly rose above religious bigotry, and continued to do so afterwards.

    Fool.

    Of course you and your ilk would not comprehend civility if it were presented to you on a platter, as you predictably mistake for self-pity, my hat-tip in acknowledgement to commenters I admire.

    So Josephus Revusky, I say to you [and only Hebrew does justice here] : you are a menuval ve ben zona.

  236. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    … the Lobby being extraordinarily powerful…

    Once again, Sam, thanks for acknowleging the truth.

    • Agree: Kiza
  237. geokat62 says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    If you’re leaving, maybe you could take that Geokat slimeball with you as well…

    Hi, Sam. Glad you decided to check in on us on occasion. Perhaps you wouldn’t mind reminding one of your biggest admirers that my offer still stands: all he has to do is accept the RoE I proposed and the dance can begin. Not sure what is preventing him from accepting… accept fear.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  238. Sam Shama says:
    @geokat62

    So reminded.

    Revusky take your pills such that your foul mouth is in check according to the Rules of Engagement, and as agreed previously by your sidekick, Rue the Brick

  239. ISIS, or better yet, “thugs with great social media”, a modern marketing strategy and the ideology of Islam, are impossible to destroy in the grand scheme of things. ISIS, by its present name, will be mowed down but like bn Laden and his strategists, they will move underground, merge with others who carry out the same ideology that caused them to spring up in the first place.
    Most of the incentives for ISIS came from US sharing of porcess and C3 while fighting alSadr. US purposely used Sunni militias and allies to fight back and many at the time aserted that this will come back to haunt US strategy at the time. When USA promised equity to all, Shia government refused to acknowledge Sunni political aim within the power structure.

    Fast forward to last week with the beheading of a Shia cleric in Saudi Arabia, and Iranians protesting the incident, the religious index went up 10 points and more with the addition of Saudi destruction of Yemen and the destruction of Shia elements. The Shi’ite has hit the fan and USA is still in Saudi Arabia and things are hotting up, to say the least.

    Too many inequities exist for ISIS to disappear as if nothing is wrong. Saddam kept these factions in order adn now there is no one to control the bad fellows so we reap what was sown, sadly!

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