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Erdogan Takes Control
A phony coup is today's Reichstag fire
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There has been some utter nonsense coming out about the Turkish coup of last weekend. Some absurdly see the hand of the CIA working together with Pennsylvania exile Fethullah Gulen to bring down the Turkish government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a hypothesis that greatly exaggerates the capabilities and intentions of both the Agency and Gulen’s “Hizmet” Movement. Other analysts have swallowed hook line and sinker the narrative of heroic resistance against a military takeover being promoted by the government in Ankara. Surprisingly, these assessments come from observers who have previously in other contexts not hesitated to note how governments dissimulate and shape stories to suit their agendas. Today in Turkey we see developing the myth of the proud and devout Anatolian peasants standing up for their Man when confronted by the Turkish elites seeking to bring him down.

I have considerable respect for those who believe that a military coup to overthrow an elected civilian government is always wrong but Erdogan is no innocent and if anyone is paying attention at all he or she would note that the Turkish president has done more damage to democracy in Turkey than anyone living. Recep Tayyip Erdogan is an autocrat who might even better be described as a megalomaniac driven to promote policies that are both self-serving and erratic that rely on incendiary populist appeals to maintain power. He heads an increasingly corrupt regime and has ruthlessly sacrificed his own people to his own ambition, effectively declaring war on the Kurdish minority living in Turkey and secretly dealing with and even supporting terrorists while also, ironically, opening the door to a new wave of terror within Turkey itself. Erdogan has personally embroiled his country in an incomprehensible and ultimately disastrous fashion in neighboring Syria. The coup plotters appear to have been appalled by the domestic and international violence unleashed by Erdogan, calling themselves a “peace at home council.”

Erdogan has been jailing journalists for the past three years on charges of treason and has made it a crime to criticize himself. Turkish citizens who demonstrate against his grandiose building projects are called “terrorists” before being arrested, beaten and shot. He has fired judges and policemen who have tried to investigate various crimes connected to his family and key supporters. He has tried assiduously to “reform” the Turkish constitution to place all power in his hands. He has promoted his own particular brand of Islam and has introduced Islamic legislation in violation of the secular constitution. And most recently he has rounded up and arrested 20,000 Turks who have the misfortunate of appearing on his “enemies” list, which clearly was prepared and ready before the coup. Some of those arrested are being tortured to produce confessions implicating others.

The Stalinist-style purge list includes a large part of Turkey’s educated elite and is being driven by both class and the rural-urban divide, with Erdogan’s own rock solid support coming from the deeply religious but poorly educated Anatolians who have in the past twenty years moved in large numbers from their farms to the cities. That means that both class and religion cards will be dealt by Erdogan over the next ninety days to enhance his support, creating a potentially explosive mixture as the traditional elite will not go quietly if it is being pushed into irrelevancy. Religiosity will surely become a litmus test to determine political reliability.

Many will get swept up as part of Erdogan’s revenge. For example, a businessman friend of mine from Istanbul has been “detained” during the past week. His crime? He is basically apolitical but a known supporter of a secular opposition party. Turkish democracy is being gutted by Erdogan while Western Europe and Washington look on, clearly nervous about what is developing.

Given the immediate and devastating government response to the coup, I feel confident in my belief that the uprising was basically a set-up. Erdogan and his government have been warning for months about the possibility of a coup, so the event itself should surprise no one. It is now certain that there was a military intervention in fact being plotted, apparently supported mostly by Kemalists in the military who advocate a secular state and are alarmed by aspects of Erdogan foreign policy, to include the collaboration with terrorist groups and the hostility towards Russia and Syria.

There was also surely an element of concern over the deteriorating Turkish economy with European fear of terrorism wrecking the tourism industry, an issue linked to Ankara’s meddling in Syria and Erdogan’s personal vendetta against the leading Kurdish political party the Peoples’ Democratic Party (HDP). Many observers and even government officials when speaking off the record have also been criticizing the Erdogan-driven breakdown in the truce that up until recently prevailed with the domestic Kurdish minority and its armed wing the PKK.

A cowed Turkish parliament has voted three months of emergency powers to Erdogan. He will use that authority to destroy his opposition in parliament and further muzzle both what remains of the independent media as well as the meddlesome foreign journalists reporting from Turkey. The social media are being shut down or censored and both emails and phone calls are being monitored by the formidably effective Turkish Military Intelligence Service (MIT). Demonstrators brave enough to go against Erdogan will be treated as enemies of the state and the once powerful Turkish military will be turned into some version of an Islamic militia with its leaders owing both their positions and loyalty to the president. Hundreds of schools and even universities that Erdogan has linked to Gulen, rightly or wrongly, have been closed and thousands of teachers have been fired. The schools will reopen eventually with a government approved religious curriculum being taught by approved teachers.

Erdogan had ten good years as prime minister but then he became convinced of his own political invulnerability and moved over to the dark side. Anyone who rejoices in his surviving a possible military coup should think twice about where he is taking Turkey since it is clear that the president will not let slip a good opportunity to eliminate all his enemies. And the average hard working decent Turk will eventually be the loser as the economy continues to slide and the trappings of a police state become ever more visible. Erdogan is frog marching his country down a road where there is only darkness at the other end.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy, Ideology • Tags: Erdogan, Fethullah Gulen, Turkey 
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  1. Clear headed as usual Phil and given your own considerable experience in Turkey, irrefutable. It’s a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.

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    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    It’s a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.
     
    What about all the people who voted for him?
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  2. Ben_C says:

    Not to say I know exactly what happened here, but plotting and attempting a coup d’état when the head of the “état” the plotters are trying to overthrow is conveniently on vacation—far away from everything—and even does a phone interview on state TV during the entire affair… Well, when something like this happens, it all seems a little suspicious to me (to say the least).

    But hey, that’s just me…and like I said, I certainly don’t know what exactly happened here. Perhaps these were just some of the dumbest coup plotters in history.

    Who knows?

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  3. Intellectually, the average social media consumer was born yesterday, and Erdogan’s iPhone appeal to restore democracy is taken at face value.

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  4. Wally says:

    A shame Giraldi relies on the old & discredited ‘Reichstag fire’ canard.
    see:

    [MORE]

    http://www.ihr.org/mwreport/2011-07-06

    The Reichstag Fire: A Nazi ‘False Flag’ Operation?
    July 6, 2011

    One of the most enduring myths of our age is the story that the Nazis set the Reichstag building on fire as a “false flag” operation to generate popular support for measures of the Hitler government to suppress dissent and consolidate power. Even some prominent historians have accepted the often repeated smear, which was invented and vigorously promoted by Communists, that Goering and other Nazi officials set the German parliament building ablaze on Feb. 27, 1933, and then cynically blamed the crime on enemies. But as Weber explains in this broadcast, the basic facts are now well established: A young Dutch Communist, Marinus van der Lubbe, acted alone in setting the Reichstag fire.
    13 MB / 32 kbps mono / 0 hour 56 min.

    David Irving says:

    The communists manufactured evidence to throw the blame off their man Van der Lubbe who started the fire. The Goebbels diary which I found in the Moscow archives in June 1992 proves that he and Hitler were astonished at the news that the building was on fire. The most reliable account of the fire is by Fritz Tobias (below right), who died this year.” That is his book The Reichstag Fire.

    at:

    http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2012/160612.html

    and:

    http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/08/01/Reichstagsbrand.html
    From “Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich” (London, 1996)

    THIS year, 1933, was however the year of the Big Lie. On Monday evening February 27 occurred one of the most controversial episodes of the whole era. Hitler had come to dine with the Goebbels family. Shortly, Goebbels was called away to take a phone call from Hitler’s friend Ernst ‘Putzi’ Hanfstaengl, a well-known prankster. Hanfstaengl shouted excitedy that the Reichstag building was on fire. Since Goebbels had twitted him with a phone call only days before, he ignored the call. Hanfstaengl phoned again, this time to report that he could see flames leaping out of the Reichstag’s cupola.

    Hitler and Goebbels tried to phone the Reichstag; nobody answered– small wonder, because a phone call to the Brandenburg Gate police station confirmed that the Reichstag was on fire. They drove off at top speed down the Charlottenburg Chaussee.

    Afterwards the world’s press clamoured that the Nazis themselves had started the blaze. With this author’s discovery of the missing Goebbels Diary entries in Moscow, that version is finally laid to rest. He, Hitler, and Göring were equally stunned by the news.

    Hitler summons me to the Kaiserhof [the unpublished entry begins]. He’s enthusiastic about my [radio] commentaries. Says Munich and Nuremberg were really great… Hitler fabulous as always… Back home to work. Much to do. At nine P.M. Hitler and Auwi [Prince August-Wilhelm] come over. Music and gossip. Then Hanfstaengl phones: says the Reichstag’s burning. What an imagination! But turns out to be true. Race straight down there with Hitler. The entire building a mass of flames. [We] go in. Göring follows. Papen, whose acquaintance I thus make, is also there. Thirty arson sites. Fires set by the communists. Göring rampant, Hitler raging, Papen clear-headed. The main assembly chamber a picture of devastation. So take action now! … To work! Hitler consults with Papen. We meet back at the Kaiserhof. Everybody beaming. This was the last straw. Now we’re well away. Culprit caught, a twenty-four year old Dutch communist.

    ‘He’s being interrogated now,’ Göring told them. ‘We decided straight away,’ Goebbels related at the subsequent trial, ‘to ban the communist press and later the social democrat press too, and to take the top communist officials into custody.’

    Göring ordered the S.A. to stand by in case of an all-out communist uprising. At midnight Hitler and Goebbels hurried over to the Völkischer Beobachter’s Berlin office. It took half an hour even to get into the sleeping building, and more time was wasted while printworkers, compositors and a surly sub-editor were found. There was no sign of Rosenberg himself, the editor. Devouring the proofs of the next day’s edition, Hitler finally found the sensational news tucked away in the Berlin in Brief column (‘Fire damage to the Reichstag’). ‘Man, are you mad,’ he shouted at the subeditor. ‘This is an event on a colossal scale!’

    We drove over to the VB [Goebbels' diary continues]. It is really badly laid out. Hitler sets to work there straight away. I dictate a new gau poster and a fabulous article … During the night all communist party officials are arrested. Entire communist and social democrat press banned. Good work done… Over to Hitler at Kaiserhof. He’s delighted with my article. It is half-past five in the morning… Two S.A. men shot in Berlin. To sleep at seven. Three hours. Then straight back to work !

    The fire was a Godsend to the Nazi radicals. Goebbels was already disquieted by the speed with which Hitler and even Göring were succumbing to Hindenburg’s bourgeois spell. This lone communist fire-raiser had rescued the revolution. During the night he sent for the journalist Alfred-Ingemar Berndt to take down a fiery press release. Goebbels’ press release announced the sweeping arrests, and described the Reichstag fire as a communist beacon, a signal for a marxist insurrection. This was as much a lie as the claim by Jewish and communist agencies worldwide that the Nazis had staged the fire. Even the authoritative Manchester Guardian published a dispatch from an anonymous special correspondent alleging that Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels had foregathered in Berlin that evening ‘awaiting their fire.’

    The world’s press readily copied this Big Lie, and historians in time adopted it from them.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Great point.

    The Nazis-burned-the-Reichstagg meme was a skillful covert influence operation by the Comintern's genius of influence and propaganda, Willi Muenzenberg. His operation resulted in the "Brown Book," which is the source of Giraldi's mistaken claim here.

    Muenzenberg went on to run the most successful covert influence operation in history--the operations to infiltrate and destroy American cultural transmission belts. This operation ultimately created American Political Correctness--the results took longer than Willi expected, but have devastated our country.

    A couple of resources:
    http://www.unite.it/UniTE/Engine/RAServeFile.php/f/File_Prof/CARLI_702/rabinbach-Reichstag.pdf

    " Not until 1959–60, when the German newsmagazine
    Der Spiegelpublished a five-part series based on the research of the nonacademic
    historian Fritz Tobias, were the Brown Book’s falsifications and misrepre-
    sentations exposed. A few years later most professional historians were per
    -suaded that Tobias’s research was sound—the Brown Book had been discred-
    ited (at least in the Federal Republic of Germany), and the thesis of a “lone”
    arsonist widely accepted. "

    http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Willi_M%C3%BCnzenberg

    http://willingaccomplices.com/
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  5. utu says:

    Is Giraldi looking for a job with some neocon think tank or media outfit?

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    • Replies: @anon
    ya think ,
    i mean he didnt even blame jews in this one. wtf ???
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  6. I have read the article three times looking for some evidence or at least some assumptions supporting the claim of a faked coup but I have not found any. What I did find was a lot of ridiculous claims like the one that CIA is incapable of organizing an overthrow of a government. Really? Another one says there was no heroic resistance on the part of the people. I suppose in the eyes of the author the death of more than two hundred civilians is a clear sign of cowardice.

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    • Replies: @Seamus Padraig
    I don't know that Giraldi ever claimed with certainty that the coup was faked--though he did kind of imply it. I think he was just trying to exonerate the CIA (his ex-employer) of any responsibility.
    , @KA
    "t is possible that the false flag operation produced no information of value and the CIA lost interest in it. "
    ".........................

    "Also, nothing in those reports provides any reason to disbelieve the possibility that the CIA, the CTC and the agency’s top management hid a false flag operation that went wrong. Anyone involved in such a false flag operation would have good reason to hide it"






    Richard Clarke

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/28-pages-questions-alleged-saudi-spy-cia/story?id=40697425




    If Richard Clarke could openly write about possibility of failed false flag operations by CIA and CTC, then it can be assumed these events are not aberration but par for the course .
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  7. Erdogan has been jailing journalists for the past three years on charges of treason and has made it a crime to criticize himself.

    He did not make it a crime to criticize himself. The law is in effect since 1980′s, do your research.

    And most recently he has rounded up and arrested 20,000 Turks who have the misfortunate of appearing on his “enemies” list, which clearly was prepared and ready before the coup.

    There was an ongoing investigation about Gulen followers, and arrest warrants had been made just before the coup attempt. This is the clearest sign that the coup is real, the officers, knowing that they would lose their positions, tried to grab power.

    And i really do not understand the people saying this coup is staged. The ruling party and the president enjoyed a solid support, polls suggested the ruling party had 51-52 percent support before the coup, and the parliamentary elections are nearly 4 years ahead. There is no need for a “staged coup”, because they are not in danger of losing majority in parliament.

    That 20.000 number includes a lot of people that have been released or will be released shortly. For example, 1200 conscripts that have been arrested after the coup, have been released since because they had no connection to the attempt.

    But you only see number of arrested, because it fits a certain narrative. Released soldiers, not.

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    • Agree: Regnum Nostrum
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Remember Sibel Edmonds? "The recent failed military coup was a desperate NATO attempt to stifle the emerging Turkey/Russia bond, NATO wants to see more war in Syria. now Sibel Edmond provides the details" Gilad Atzmon

    Newsbud Breaking News: Turkey’s Coup Plotters are Members of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps

    Turkish Government Issues an Official Request to NBC News Demanding Immediate Public Apology

    US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt
     
    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/
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  8. Yes, the perfect US ally.

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  9. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    In all of the fear, hate, worry, not much is being said about the Donmeh who are supposedly crypto-Jews. And, there are “Gifts” from the West such as Christian-Zionists, Fundamentalists, and their ilk. If an internal conflict is present, then sooner or later, there will be religious conflict directly behind economic and political conflict. The major players in the West want a piece of Turkey, one way or another.

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  10. The Sultan is pursing a non liberal model…democratically. There’s no doubt he has the support from the masses now.

    What I should like to know is where Phil gets the idea this wasn’t a an attempted CIA job? We know one of the key nodes of the uprising was Incirlik airbase where the US has a foothold. We know the military is the most pro-Western Turkish institution. We know it’s deeply penetrated by US agents, and the Turkish deep state has close relations with the American one. We know Obama considered the sultan a ‘failed authoritarian’. We know the state department waited until they saw which way the wind was blowing before they ‘condemned’ the coup. We know Western media published fictive accounts of Erdogan seeking asylum. We know Russia and Iran gave their unqualified support to the Sultan during and after the coup. I wonder why that was?

    This doesn’t make Erdogan good (but if he wants to set up a non-Wahabi traditional Islamic society, why shouldn’t he?), it simply makes it a fact that the US wanted the sultan replaced by the military.

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    • Agree: Carroll Price
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    What I should like to know is where Phil gets the idea this wasn’t a an attempted CIA job?
     
    I think the article is disinfo. Also an attempt at damage control.
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  11. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Today’s Reichtag fire: I think this was a ”stress test” (ie a warm up by the CIA NATO Gulenists to see how the country reacts) in preparation for the REAL coup to come, in order to create civil war and spread division and chaos until Syria becomes involved.

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  12. @Fran Macadam
    Clear headed as usual Phil and given your own considerable experience in Turkey, irrefutable. It's a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.

    It’s a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.

    What about all the people who voted for him?

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ....so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a "faux coup" designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of "perpetual" warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine's eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country's role in the Syria fiasco.

    The "faux coup" has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.


    Like our "9-11", a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,....... and a great day for Israel.
    , @edNels


    If your BSD is still working, You might realize that Democracy is a failed concept.

    At it's best, it works to deflect culpability back to the populace who are the ones most hurt. and at its best, it is a leaky sieve, and the thing is full of holes… or so to say, it's a complete fake like Bush by Stupreme Court after loosing to… what's his name, he invented the internet and stuff… ?
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  13. @Lemurmaniac
    The Sultan is pursing a non liberal model...democratically. There's no doubt he has the support from the masses now.

    What I should like to know is where Phil gets the idea this wasn't a an attempted CIA job? We know one of the key nodes of the uprising was Incirlik airbase where the US has a foothold. We know the military is the most pro-Western Turkish institution. We know it's deeply penetrated by US agents, and the Turkish deep state has close relations with the American one. We know Obama considered the sultan a 'failed authoritarian'. We know the state department waited until they saw which way the wind was blowing before they 'condemned' the coup. We know Western media published fictive accounts of Erdogan seeking asylum. We know Russia and Iran gave their unqualified support to the Sultan during and after the coup. I wonder why that was?

    This doesn't make Erdogan good (but if he wants to set up a non-Wahabi traditional Islamic society, why shouldn't he?), it simply makes it a fact that the US wanted the sultan replaced by the military.

    What I should like to know is where Phil gets the idea this wasn’t a an attempted CIA job?

    I think the article is disinfo. Also an attempt at damage control.

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    • Replies: @utu
    "Also an attempt at damage control." - Sometimes the deep state is forced to call to actions the agents of influence who have the highest credibility among the opponents. Even at risk compromising agent's cover and credibility.
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  14. Erdo says:

    Turkey is an interesting country where everyone is called Turk, I think this is due to their constitution, but people who are not ethnically Turk object to this and calling everyone Turk has unintended consequences as show in this article e.g. “he has rounded up and arrested 20,000 Turks “. How does he know these people are Turks? I suspect most of them are ethnic Kurds, not Turks.

    Both PKK and Gulen movements are predominantly Kurdish, although some Turks exists in their ranks. Both of these movements are making efforts to infiltrate state to influence government policies to their benefit, and both of them are working towards establishment of a Kurdish state with USA support but by using different means.

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    • Replies: @Carroll Price
    Name one country (including the US) where everyone considers himself a loyal subject to the regime in charge.
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  15. Rehmat says:

    Nothing wrong getting a helping hand from friends like CIA, Mossad and MI6, Dr. Giraldi.

    War on Syria must go on for the Zionist regime ….

    City of Damascus is finally liberated of the US-Israel-Saudi Arabia funded Wahhabi insurgency. People are returning to city suburbs once occupied by pro-Israel al-Nusra and Washington’s so-called “moderate rebels”. The city and the residents are rebuilding the ancient city destroyed by the US and its regional allies for Bashar al-Assad support for Lebanese Hibullah and Tehran.

    No one knows how long this calm will lost as both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump are a regime change in Damascus by all means. Why? Because the Zionist regime wants foreign powers to Balkanize Syria on ethnic basis such as Kurdistan, Alawistan, Druzistan, and an anti-Iran Sunni Syria.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/07/26/peace-in-damascus-after-5-years-of-israels-proxy-war/

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  16. alexander says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    It’s a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.
     
    What about all the people who voted for him?

    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ….so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a “faux coup” designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of “perpetual” warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine’s eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country’s role in the Syria fiasco.

    The “faux coup” has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.

    Like our “9-11″, a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,……. and a great day for Israel.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    The “faux coup” has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.
     
    I guess we'll see Alexander..

    it's very difficult to know who the players are behind things like this, but once they start implementing policies, then we'll know

    we all know who the scumfucks are:

    Israel

    NATO/US (Israel's bitch)

    ISIS (Israel's dogs)

    Turkey - pre-coup

    and all the other crooks and scum (Saudis) trying to destabilize and carve up Syria

    if the sultan has changed course, (and we'll know this soon enough), and stops his overt efforts to destabilize Syria, then I think we can rest assured that he has seen the light and is now aligning with Russia and the principles of international law and decency.

    But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse

    by their works we shall know them
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Your suggestion that Erdogan is "a tool for the powers that be" is new to me. Can you elaborate on who it is that manipulate him as a tool, how it is done and what their policies and objectives are?

    To my simple view he appears as a Hitler with differences of ideology which are not very different but have references to Allah attached.

    My opening question is the substance of this, not my comparison with Hitler.
    , @Anonymous
    Your post is ridiculous. You claim that the failed coup "is great for Israel!" Even a baby wouldn't utter such nonsense! Some thing tells me that you are really sad about the failed coup, perhaps because you rightly feel it was real loss for Israel.
    , @Carroll Price
    So, for a change, a "brutal authoritarian dictator" beat the CIA to the punch. Things are looking up.
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  17. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I don’t think “apolitical” means what you think it means.

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  18. KA says:

    Turkey has embraced the Bush -Cheney ‘s doctrines that have gutted the constitution ,international obligation, and essentially have turned illegal u authorized pre emptive wars on Muslims across the globe as normal insignificant routine occurrences to be expected and not to be questioned .
    Turkey can’t but America can plod on doing what it has been doing g for 15 yrs because economic and military reasons and because of stronger institutions . Actually the descent down the dark side emerged more than 25 yrs ago,it started when US visualized the 1st gulf war as a antidote toVietnam Syndrome .
    America like Turkey is divided and shows more than one fissure zones and conflict lines .
    Only America is much more dangerous . A coup on ideological lines have taken place over last 30 yrs since the end of Cold War in America . It has increasingly got worst . Only now citizenry is reacting but reacting destructively and randomly looking for enemies and solutions in most bizarre places that will only exacerbate and accelerate the downward journey.
    Tutkey is most likely will become calmer ,less aggressive,less pompous and less involved abroad while it at home Turkey will turn into so something like Pakistan and Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Caterina
    Still blaming Bush? Good lord.
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  19. @Regnum Nostrum
    I have read the article three times looking for some evidence or at least some assumptions supporting the claim of a faked coup but I have not found any. What I did find was a lot of ridiculous claims like the one that CIA is incapable of organizing an overthrow of a government. Really? Another one says there was no heroic resistance on the part of the people. I suppose in the eyes of the author the death of more than two hundred civilians is a clear sign of cowardice.

    I don’t know that Giraldi ever claimed with certainty that the coup was faked–though he did kind of imply it. I think he was just trying to exonerate the CIA (his ex-employer) of any responsibility.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Seamus - Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency's Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.
    , @Oscar Peterson
    To me, the problem is that the title of the article, wherein the coup is described as "phony," doesn't quite match the content, where Phil Giraldi says that there was a Kemalist military intervention--which means coup to me. It may be that Erdogan knew about this coup all along and perhaps worked to trigger it.
    Of course, while Erdogan has become disastrous for Turkey, it can be said that he allowed himself to be sucked into the real "dark side," US plans to restructure the Middle East. The invasion of Iraq, destabilization of Syria and Libya and endless hyping of the Arab Spring all contributed to the warping of Erdogan's judgment. I don't think we can simply write off his behavior as having gone over to "the dark side." This is the real world, not Star Wars.
    Amazing to remember that he seemed poised to possibly succeed in overcoming the Turkish-Kurish problem before Syria.
    US policy in the ME is like a black hole.
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  20. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The Ghouta chemical attack that killed hundreds of civilians, including many children, was carried out by Turkish agents according to investigative journalist Seymour Hersh. It was a false flag intended to provide justification for the US to officially intervene in Syria, more than it already had, and start it’s usual bombing campaign. Photos of the pathetic remains of the dead infants were circulated to help drive this endeavor. Erdogan had to know and approve of this heinous crime to be carried out. This is just one example of the kind of swine he and all the rest of his gang really are, gangsters willing to do anything without the slightest regard for human life. It’s already known how his family profited from the oil business they had going with ISIS, his use of the public treasury to build a gargantuan presidential palace for himself and so on, on and on it goes. At this point it’s hard to know exactly what took place there with this coup. However, it’s clear that nothing is beyond their willingness to do so nothing can be ruled out. Nothing is unthinkable for those people, absolutely nothing.

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  21. @Seamus Padraig
    I don't know that Giraldi ever claimed with certainty that the coup was faked--though he did kind of imply it. I think he was just trying to exonerate the CIA (his ex-employer) of any responsibility.

    Seamus – Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency’s Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bunga
    Stronger military dependent on USA like Pakistan ,Nigeria, a lot of African countries are in reality and until 1980 S Korea was and most of Latin American countries were ,do not need coup. They are already there .
    When the military is poorer and less powerful like it was in Kryzgistan and Libya - the countries become candidate for Color Revolution

    So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution
    , @Regnum Nostrum

    CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey.
     
    Using Fethullah Gülen's contacts the CIA was quite capable of staging a coup in Turkey. Actually it was capable of doing much more than that. Do not try to paint that organization as a bunch of innocent, bumbling choir boys in this particular instance. I was suspicious after the shooting down of the Russian jet fighter which conveniently happened at the time when Russia and Turkey were getting quite close together. That event destroyed good relations between Turkey and Russia. I proposed in my comment to withhold judgement of the whole affair until we know who ordered the shooting. Well now we know. After some time the relationship between Erdogan and Putin starts to improve again and suddenly we have an attempted coup. Strange indeed. Ask yourself who would be against good relations between Russia and Turkey. Actually ask yourself who has been trying so hard to turn every Russian neighbour into the enemy of the Russian people.
    , @Verymuchalive
    Elsewhere, I was bemoaning the poor quality of Patrick Cockburn's articles on Turkey and beseeching your employer Mr Unz to employ someone who could speak the language and who understood the culture. I know that you can speak Russian and Italian amongst other languages. I knew that you had lived and worked in Turkey, but was surprised to discover that you can speak Turkish too.
    I should not have been. Your article is informative and well-written, unlike Mr Cockburn's. You do not write on Turkey very often. Turkey is an important and interesting part of the world. Could you not recommend to Mr Unz some knowledgeable person to write informative articles on Turkey when you are unable.
    Any chance, mate?
    , @Richard Steven Hack
    Phil, it might not have been the CIA directly, but Sibel Edmonds is claiming that three of the military units involved in the coup were members of NATO's reaction force, and Turkey itself is claiming that a former US general was involved in the coup and may have been the individual who leaked to NBC the fake news that Erdogan was flying to Germany for asylum. Turkey has asked NBC to apologize for that evident attempt to manipulate events during the coup.

    Then there is the fact that Obama was strangely silent during the coup, with Kerry merely saying the US would work with whoever ended up in power. This was taken by a LOT of people as quiet support for the coup..

    The fire that started near the US air base may also be significant.

    So if the CIA was not the lead on this, perhaps it was the Pentagon working with NATO?

    Of course, all of this could be disinformation spread by Erdogan to enable his distancing himself from the US more to give himself more of a free hand. Erdogan seems to be willing to do a 180 and make nice with Russia, Iran, and even the Assad government. People are saying this means he's dumping the West and turning East.
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  22. Rurik says:
    @alexander
    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ....so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a "faux coup" designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of "perpetual" warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine's eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country's role in the Syria fiasco.

    The "faux coup" has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.


    Like our "9-11", a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,....... and a great day for Israel.

    The “faux coup” has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    I guess we’ll see Alexander..

    it’s very difficult to know who the players are behind things like this, but once they start implementing policies, then we’ll know

    we all know who the scumfucks are:

    Israel

    NATO/US (Israel’s bitch)

    ISIS (Israel’s dogs)

    Turkey – pre-coup

    and all the other crooks and scum (Saudis) trying to destabilize and carve up Syria

    if the sultan has changed course, (and we’ll know this soon enough), and stops his overt efforts to destabilize Syria, then I think we can rest assured that he has seen the light and is now aligning with Russia and the principles of international law and decency.

    But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse

    by their works we shall know them

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Its a sad day for Turkey, any way you slice it.

    Emergency powers ..... brutal crackdowns.....mass arrests.....school closings ......executions......Not all the good stuff to write home about.

    It seems like "police state fascism" , spreading like a plague in the wake of terror events, coups, and what have you , is becoming the new normal.

    All the elixirs that went into concocting our post "9-11" world seem to be re-potion-ed and served up to suitable countries everywhere around the world.

    Like a formula that not only works well for those who despise free societies, but provides a never ending financial boon to the security industries that thrive on it.

    I am hard pressed to see this "coup event" and its aftermath as anything more then a spread of this disease, in one more form.

    The idea that this event indicates an Erdogan who has had a moral "epiphany" and has thrown off the yolk of his pernicious handlers, would be a welcome outcome, but given his recent track record ,I am pretty skeptical, Rurik.

    But as you said, we shall see.
    , @utu
    "But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse." - Very good point.
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  23. Marcus says:

    Why would the US want Erdogan out, because he’s apparently seeking rapprochement with Russia? Possible I suppose, but he’s been a reliable ally for the most part.

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  24. @Seamus Padraig
    I don't know that Giraldi ever claimed with certainty that the coup was faked--though he did kind of imply it. I think he was just trying to exonerate the CIA (his ex-employer) of any responsibility.

    To me, the problem is that the title of the article, wherein the coup is described as “phony,” doesn’t quite match the content, where Phil Giraldi says that there was a Kemalist military intervention–which means coup to me. It may be that Erdogan knew about this coup all along and perhaps worked to trigger it.
    Of course, while Erdogan has become disastrous for Turkey, it can be said that he allowed himself to be sucked into the real “dark side,” US plans to restructure the Middle East. The invasion of Iraq, destabilization of Syria and Libya and endless hyping of the Arab Spring all contributed to the warping of Erdogan’s judgment. I don’t think we can simply write off his behavior as having gone over to “the dark side.” This is the real world, not Star Wars.
    Amazing to remember that he seemed poised to possibly succeed in overcoming the Turkish-Kurish problem before Syria.
    US policy in the ME is like a black hole.

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  25. Jim Bovard says: • Website

    Excellent piece, Phil! I hope this gets reposted far & wide.

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  26. alexander says:
    @Rurik

    The “faux coup” has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.
     
    I guess we'll see Alexander..

    it's very difficult to know who the players are behind things like this, but once they start implementing policies, then we'll know

    we all know who the scumfucks are:

    Israel

    NATO/US (Israel's bitch)

    ISIS (Israel's dogs)

    Turkey - pre-coup

    and all the other crooks and scum (Saudis) trying to destabilize and carve up Syria

    if the sultan has changed course, (and we'll know this soon enough), and stops his overt efforts to destabilize Syria, then I think we can rest assured that he has seen the light and is now aligning with Russia and the principles of international law and decency.

    But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse

    by their works we shall know them

    Its a sad day for Turkey, any way you slice it.

    Emergency powers ….. brutal crackdowns…..mass arrests…..school closings ……executions……Not all the good stuff to write home about.

    It seems like “police state fascism” , spreading like a plague in the wake of terror events, coups, and what have you , is becoming the new normal.

    All the elixirs that went into concocting our post “9-11″ world seem to be re-potion-ed and served up to suitable countries everywhere around the world.

    Like a formula that not only works well for those who despise free societies, but provides a never ending financial boon to the security industries that thrive on it.

    I am hard pressed to see this “coup event” and its aftermath as anything more then a spread of this disease, in one more form.

    The idea that this event indicates an Erdogan who has had a moral “epiphany” and has thrown off the yolk of his pernicious handlers, would be a welcome outcome, but given his recent track record ,I am pretty skeptical, Rurik.

    But as you said, we shall see.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Seems to me with so many random acts of violence occurring and by means of using increasingly simple tools, knives, cars and trucks, the idea is for these acts to increase until a tipping point is reached with people demanding a machine gun armed cop on every street corner for our own protection. By an amazing coincidence police state fascism will likely take over at about the same time as a financial meltdown occurs.
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  27. utu says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    What I should like to know is where Phil gets the idea this wasn’t a an attempted CIA job?
     
    I think the article is disinfo. Also an attempt at damage control.

    “Also an attempt at damage control.” – Sometimes the deep state is forced to call to actions the agents of influence who have the highest credibility among the opponents. Even at risk compromising agent’s cover and credibility.

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  28. utu says:
    @Rurik

    The “faux coup” has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.
     
    I guess we'll see Alexander..

    it's very difficult to know who the players are behind things like this, but once they start implementing policies, then we'll know

    we all know who the scumfucks are:

    Israel

    NATO/US (Israel's bitch)

    ISIS (Israel's dogs)

    Turkey - pre-coup

    and all the other crooks and scum (Saudis) trying to destabilize and carve up Syria

    if the sultan has changed course, (and we'll know this soon enough), and stops his overt efforts to destabilize Syria, then I think we can rest assured that he has seen the light and is now aligning with Russia and the principles of international law and decency.

    But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse

    by their works we shall know them

    “But if he continues to foment terrorism and regime change in Syria, then we can all be sure the coup was a ruse.” – Very good point.

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  29. Talha says:

    Some of those arrested are being tortured to produce confessions implicating others.

    Sigh…another Middle Eastern dictatorship that tortures its own people. I had really high hopes for Turkey in the early 2000′s, but it seems they are trading a secular repressive regime for an ‘islamic’ repressive regime. Maybe all the other dictator’s will high-five him at the next OIC – “Way to go Erdy! Show those (preferred epithet) who’s boss!”

    How far we’ve fallen…It is reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab (ra) said, “By Allah! A man is not detained in Islam without just witnesses.” – reported in the Muwatta of Imam Malik

    “There is general agreement on the principle that confession obtained under duress is null and void.” Imams Malik, Ghazali and Saraskhsi (may God grant them a lofty status) are quoted for their respective schools.
    Criminal Justice in Islam: Judicial Procedure in the Shari’a

    Once they start to undermine judicial safeguards that have been outlined from the 8th (8th!) century, they lose legitimacy with me in trying to push that they are ‘guardians of a new Islamic era’.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    It is reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab (ra) said, "By Allah! A man is not detained in Islam without just witnesses."– reported in the Muwatta of Imam Malik.

    Torah said 2,000 years before: "If one kills a fellow human for personal reason, he killed the entire humanity."

    Why Israeli government killed 100,000 young Sephardic Jews with heavy doses of nuclear radiation?

    On August 14, 2004 – Israel’s Channel 10 showed a documentary 100,000 Radiation, exposing the ugliest secret of Israel’s Labor Zionist founders; the deliberate mass radiation poisoning of nearly all Sephardi youths. In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba flew to America and returned with 7 x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

    They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today. To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on “school trips” and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, the many of the rest developed cancers that killed them over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer’s disease, chronic headaches and psychosis.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/09/01/can-jews-kill-jews/
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  30. Rehmat says:
    @Talha

    Some of those arrested are being tortured to produce confessions implicating others.
     
    Sigh...another Middle Eastern dictatorship that tortures its own people. I had really high hopes for Turkey in the early 2000's, but it seems they are trading a secular repressive regime for an 'islamic' repressive regime. Maybe all the other dictator's will high-five him at the next OIC - "Way to go Erdy! Show those (preferred epithet) who's boss!"

    How far we've fallen...It is reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab (ra) said, "By Allah! A man is not detained in Islam without just witnesses." - reported in the Muwatta of Imam Malik

    "There is general agreement on the principle that confession obtained under duress is null and void." Imams Malik, Ghazali and Saraskhsi (may God grant them a lofty status) are quoted for their respective schools.
    Criminal Justice in Islam: Judicial Procedure in the Shari'a

    Once they start to undermine judicial safeguards that have been outlined from the 8th (8th!) century, they lose legitimacy with me in trying to push that they are 'guardians of a new Islamic era'.

    Peace.

    It is reported that Umar Ibn al-Khattab (ra) said, “By Allah! A man is not detained in Islam without just witnesses.”– reported in the Muwatta of Imam Malik.

    Torah said 2,000 years before: “If one kills a fellow human for personal reason, he killed the entire humanity.”

    Why Israeli government killed 100,000 young Sephardic Jews with heavy doses of nuclear radiation?

    On August 14, 2004 – Israel’s Channel 10 showed a documentary 100,000 Radiation, exposing the ugliest secret of Israel’s Labor Zionist founders; the deliberate mass radiation poisoning of nearly all Sephardi youths. In 1951, the director general of the Israeli Health Ministry, Dr. Chaim Sheba flew to America and returned with 7 x-ray machines, supplied to him by the American army.

    They were to be used in a mass atomic experiment with an entire generation of Sephardi youths to be used as guinea pigs. Every Sephardi child was to be given 35,000 times the maximum dose of x-rays through his head. For doing so, the American government paid the Israeli government 300 million Israeli liras a year. The entire Health budget was 60 million liras. The money paid by the Americans is equivalent to billions of dollars today. To fool the parents of the victims, the children were taken away on “school trips” and their parents were later told the x-rays were a treatment for the scourge of scalpal ringworm. 6,000 of the children died shortly after their doses were given, the many of the rest developed cancers that killed them over time and are still killing them now. While living, the victims suffered from disorders such as epilepsy, amnesia, Alzheimer’s disease, chronic headaches and psychosis.

    https://rehmat1.com/2010/09/01/can-jews-kill-jews/

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  31. bunga says:
    @Philip Giraldi
    Seamus - Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency's Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.

    Stronger military dependent on USA like Pakistan ,Nigeria, a lot of African countries are in reality and until 1980 S Korea was and most of Latin American countries were ,do not need coup. They are already there .
    When the military is poorer and less powerful like it was in Kryzgistan and Libya – the countries become candidate for Color Revolution

    So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    "So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution"

    What is Diversity?

    People of Color Revolution?

    Main colors seem to be homo 'rainbow'.
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  32. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    It’s a mystery how anybody could see this tyrant as anything but an anti-democratic dictator.
     
    What about all the people who voted for him?

    If your BSD is still working, You might realize that Democracy is a failed concept.

    At it’s best, it works to deflect culpability back to the populace who are the ones most hurt. and at its best, it is a leaky sieve, and the thing is full of holes… or so to say, it’s a complete fake like Bush by Stupreme Court after loosing to… what’s his name, he invented the internet and stuff… ?

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  33. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Erdogan is loathsome, I agree, but he is still better than any European leader.

    At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.

    He doesn’t allow masses of Africans to come to turkey and act like this:

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/25/blmr-protesters-torch-french-town/

    Erdogan acted horribly with Syria, but keep in the mind the real masterminds of the destruction of the Arab world have been the GLOB.

    If every EU nation had someone like Erdogan, it’d be much better.

    Orban is an exception to the EU rule, and thank todd for that.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.}

    What the eff is the so-called "Turkishness"?

    'Turks' are squatters in Asia Minor.
    Genocidal Uyguroğlar criminals.


    "Turkishness" ? What the f___ is that?
    The so-called 'Turks' are a nomadic tribe from Uyguristan, squatting on Christian lands.
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  34. Marcus says:

    For the Syrian rebels, Turkey has been a major benefactor, if not their most important. The chaos in Turkey, however, in the aftermath of its failed coup is likely to distract the government in Ankara from the conflict in Syria. From the rebels’ perspective, the timing could not be worse: At the moment, they are both heavily dependent on Turkish aid and under extreme pressure from their foes.

    https://www.stratfor.com/analysis/syrias-rebels-lose-support-when-they-need-it-most

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  35. Avery says:
    @Priss Factor
    Erdogan is loathsome, I agree, but he is still better than any European leader.

    At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.

    He doesn't allow masses of Africans to come to turkey and act like this:

    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/07/25/blmr-protesters-torch-french-town/

    Erdogan acted horribly with Syria, but keep in the mind the real masterminds of the destruction of the Arab world have been the GLOB.

    If every EU nation had someone like Erdogan, it'd be much better.

    Orban is an exception to the EU rule, and thank todd for that.

    {At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.}

    What the eff is the so-called “Turkishness”?

    ‘Turks’ are squatters in Asia Minor.
    Genocidal Uyguroğlar criminals.

    “Turkishness” ? What the f___ is that?
    The so-called ‘Turks’ are a nomadic tribe from Uyguristan, squatting on Christian lands.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    He is for squatter-barbarian power.
    , @Eagle
    Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population. So, how can you make claim that this land for Christian and this land is not? The planet is land and water mass, and humans are like like seeds in the wind. you never know where they will take root.
    You can't lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.
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  36. Caterina says: • Website

    Barackbar has insured the 50 US nukes will fall into the hands of Erdogan’s minions. This is what they planned when BHO last visited Turkey in Nov 2015.

    Never forget: Bill Clinton used Hazel O’Leary to hand the Chinese our MD-88 nuclear missile guidance tech.

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  37. Caterina says: • Website
    @KA
    Turkey has embraced the Bush -Cheney 's doctrines that have gutted the constitution ,international obligation, and essentially have turned illegal u authorized pre emptive wars on Muslims across the globe as normal insignificant routine occurrences to be expected and not to be questioned .
    Turkey can't but America can plod on doing what it has been doing g for 15 yrs because economic and military reasons and because of stronger institutions . Actually the descent down the dark side emerged more than 25 yrs ago,it started when US visualized the 1st gulf war as a antidote toVietnam Syndrome .
    America like Turkey is divided and shows more than one fissure zones and conflict lines .
    Only America is much more dangerous . A coup on ideological lines have taken place over last 30 yrs since the end of Cold War in America . It has increasingly got worst . Only now citizenry is reacting but reacting destructively and randomly looking for enemies and solutions in most bizarre places that will only exacerbate and accelerate the downward journey.
    Tutkey is most likely will become calmer ,less aggressive,less pompous and less involved abroad while it at home Turkey will turn into so something like Pakistan and Israel.

    Still blaming Bush? Good lord.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KA
    Do you blame the hijackers for thevmental health breadown , anger,anxiety and in some cases slow death of the police officers and firefighters who were exposed to 911 ?
    Do you place the blame for agent orange victim to Gulf war ?
    Do you blame the the war architects from Kennedy to Nixon for ruined lives of Vietnamese and Cambodians? I do.
    Do you blame the sun exposure for the skin cancers? I do.

    Yes , I blame that maggot .It doesn't mean I don't blame other fleas and sharks
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  38. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    @Avery
    {At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.}

    What the eff is the so-called "Turkishness"?

    'Turks' are squatters in Asia Minor.
    Genocidal Uyguroğlar criminals.


    "Turkishness" ? What the f___ is that?
    The so-called 'Turks' are a nomadic tribe from Uyguristan, squatting on Christian lands.

    He is for squatter-barbarian power.

    Read More
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  39. @Philip Giraldi
    Seamus - Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency's Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.

    CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey.

    Using Fethullah Gülen’s contacts the CIA was quite capable of staging a coup in Turkey. Actually it was capable of doing much more than that. Do not try to paint that organization as a bunch of innocent, bumbling choir boys in this particular instance. I was suspicious after the shooting down of the Russian jet fighter which conveniently happened at the time when Russia and Turkey were getting quite close together. That event destroyed good relations between Turkey and Russia. I proposed in my comment to withhold judgement of the whole affair until we know who ordered the shooting. Well now we know. After some time the relationship between Erdogan and Putin starts to improve again and suddenly we have an attempted coup. Strange indeed. Ask yourself who would be against good relations between Russia and Turkey. Actually ask yourself who has been trying so hard to turn every Russian neighbour into the enemy of the Russian people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    CIA might have been pro-coup, but that doesn't mean it had a hand in it.

    The question is... which side is the military on and what does it stand for?

    Even opponents of Erdogan don't know.

    Also, linking nationalism with militarism gives the impression that nationalism has to be forced on Turkey thru force of arms.
    So, Erdogan wins even with the nationalist card since he has the support of masses in the street.

    , @bunga
    Thanks for the Interesting and pertinent observations.

    Before Erdogan turned into a rogue interventionist , he was doing something that the Master did not like- working with Brazil for a negotiated settlement of Iran affairs that was scuttled after full support were received and identical demands from US were met
    Then there was Maariv - Gaza flotilla where an American lost his life

    In addition there was some tentative efforts to bring Kurds and Iraq together on Erdogan's part

    He then faced a big proto color revolution - Gezi ( I think that was the name ) in his own turfs

    He has not forgot those events and he knows what rules bind the world together .

    I am sure if he were responsible for the shooting of the Russian pilot then he was also certain that help would be on its way from the west .

    West has financed and manufactured the worst crisis after second Iraq war intentionally by upping ante, supporting rogues criminal fanatics, and marginalizing any meaningful efforts for negotiated outcome and then blaming Turkey Jordan and S Arab for mayhem and for fanaticism .
    Question is what would have happened to them if they did nit follow the script?
    Ask Zia Ul Haque of Pakistan and ask Mushrafo and check with US /west's behaviors in other parts of the worlds
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  40. Marcus says:

    It looks like the non-IS jihadis (and maybe IS as well) are collapsing without Turkish support, the Syrian army has nearly completed the capture of Aleppo

    http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20160726/1043630709/syria-nusra-aleppo.html

    Read More
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  41. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    To be fair to Erdogan, suppose there was an attempted military coup in America or Germany, and suppose it had failed.

    I can guarantee massive purges, hysteria, shaming, and blacklisting.

    Dylann Roof was some nut kid who acted on his own, but the PWB(powers that be) used that as excuse to wage total war on southern heritage.

    Zimmerman and the Fergison cop were exonerated, but the powers that be(even Obama) exploited it to spread BLM terror and even the murder of white police officers.

    Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, but US used it as excuse to spread wars all over the Middle East.
    And who created the mess in Ukraine, even with the support of neo-nazi elements?

    Homomania destroys careers and lives with full blessing of PC-brainwashed kids.

    Erdogan is really small potaters in all this.

    If US military moved on Obama and failed in its coup, what Erdogan is doing would look like child’s play. And Lib Media would call for total massive purge of all ‘racist’ and ‘nationalist’ elements.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Anonymny,

    your quote,

    " Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11...."

    No, he did not.

    When you consider the mandate of the American people was crystal clear.....to bring the perpetrators of 9-11 to justice, it is truly a bizarre miscarriage that we invaded and destroyed an entire country that never attacked us.

    It is so bizarre in fact, it leaves any thinking person wondering what it is we stand for.

    Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe's house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter....then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever .

    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?

    Are you the same person you were before....Are we the same Nation ?

    And if we have changed, how have we changed ?

    How do we engage ourselves and the world now that we have been deceived into murdering those who did not attack us ?

    How do regain our sense of equilibrium , our sense of justice, and our sense of collective destiny, given the fact of this tragedy ?.

    It seems it would be somehow bound up with bringing those who deceived us .....to justice ?

    It cannot turn back time, or bring back the lives to those who have lost them... but it might create a kind of closure for the United States, we can regain at least part of our selves once those who have defrauded us into committing the act of murder have been brought to heel.

    Your thoughts ?
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  42. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    @Regnum Nostrum

    CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey.
     
    Using Fethullah Gülen's contacts the CIA was quite capable of staging a coup in Turkey. Actually it was capable of doing much more than that. Do not try to paint that organization as a bunch of innocent, bumbling choir boys in this particular instance. I was suspicious after the shooting down of the Russian jet fighter which conveniently happened at the time when Russia and Turkey were getting quite close together. That event destroyed good relations between Turkey and Russia. I proposed in my comment to withhold judgement of the whole affair until we know who ordered the shooting. Well now we know. After some time the relationship between Erdogan and Putin starts to improve again and suddenly we have an attempted coup. Strange indeed. Ask yourself who would be against good relations between Russia and Turkey. Actually ask yourself who has been trying so hard to turn every Russian neighbour into the enemy of the Russian people.

    CIA might have been pro-coup, but that doesn’t mean it had a hand in it.

    The question is… which side is the military on and what does it stand for?

    Even opponents of Erdogan don’t know.

    Also, linking nationalism with militarism gives the impression that nationalism has to be forced on Turkey thru force of arms.
    So, Erdogan wins even with the nationalist card since he has the support of masses in the street.

    Read More
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  43. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website
    @bunga
    Stronger military dependent on USA like Pakistan ,Nigeria, a lot of African countries are in reality and until 1980 S Korea was and most of Latin American countries were ,do not need coup. They are already there .
    When the military is poorer and less powerful like it was in Kryzgistan and Libya - the countries become candidate for Color Revolution

    So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution

    “So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution”

    What is Diversity?

    People of Color Revolution?

    Main colors seem to be homo ‘rainbow’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-26/israel-s-culture-war-is-getting-ugly

    Israel's Culture War Is Getting Ugly

    check out the photo --
    rainbow/SoD flag,
    fat lady in stripe dress

    which one's teh ugly?
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  44. @Philip Giraldi
    Seamus - Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency's Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.

    Elsewhere, I was bemoaning the poor quality of Patrick Cockburn’s articles on Turkey and beseeching your employer Mr Unz to employ someone who could speak the language and who understood the culture. I know that you can speak Russian and Italian amongst other languages. I knew that you had lived and worked in Turkey, but was surprised to discover that you can speak Turkish too.
    I should not have been. Your article is informative and well-written, unlike Mr Cockburn’s. You do not write on Turkey very often. Turkey is an important and interesting part of the world. Could you not recommend to Mr Unz some knowledgeable person to write informative articles on Turkey when you are unable.
    Any chance, mate?

    Read More
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  45. bunga says:
    @Regnum Nostrum

    CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey.
     
    Using Fethullah Gülen's contacts the CIA was quite capable of staging a coup in Turkey. Actually it was capable of doing much more than that. Do not try to paint that organization as a bunch of innocent, bumbling choir boys in this particular instance. I was suspicious after the shooting down of the Russian jet fighter which conveniently happened at the time when Russia and Turkey were getting quite close together. That event destroyed good relations between Turkey and Russia. I proposed in my comment to withhold judgement of the whole affair until we know who ordered the shooting. Well now we know. After some time the relationship between Erdogan and Putin starts to improve again and suddenly we have an attempted coup. Strange indeed. Ask yourself who would be against good relations between Russia and Turkey. Actually ask yourself who has been trying so hard to turn every Russian neighbour into the enemy of the Russian people.

    Thanks for the Interesting and pertinent observations.

    Before Erdogan turned into a rogue interventionist , he was doing something that the Master did not like- working with Brazil for a negotiated settlement of Iran affairs that was scuttled after full support were received and identical demands from US were met
    Then there was Maariv – Gaza flotilla where an American lost his life

    In addition there was some tentative efforts to bring Kurds and Iraq together on Erdogan’s part

    He then faced a big proto color revolution – Gezi ( I think that was the name ) in his own turfs

    He has not forgot those events and he knows what rules bind the world together .

    I am sure if he were responsible for the shooting of the Russian pilot then he was also certain that help would be on its way from the west .

    West has financed and manufactured the worst crisis after second Iraq war intentionally by upping ante, supporting rogues criminal fanatics, and marginalizing any meaningful efforts for negotiated outcome and then blaming Turkey Jordan and S Arab for mayhem and for fanaticism .
    Question is what would have happened to them if they did nit follow the script?
    Ask Zia Ul Haque of Pakistan and ask Mushrafo and check with US /west’s behaviors in other parts of the worlds

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG

    General John F. Campbell, 59, was "one of the top figures who organized and managed the soldiers behind the failed coup attempt in Turkey," ....
    According to Yeni Safak, Campbell "also managed more than $2 billion in transactions via UBA Bank in Nigeria by using CIA links to distribute among the pro-coup military personnel in Turkey."
     
    https://www.rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato-coup-turkey/
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  46. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Well, give Turkey some credit.

    At least it’s not South Korea, which should be called Chicken.

    Read More
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  47. DaveE says:

    Of course those being rounded up are “the elite” and educated. They’re the Donmeh Jews and effendi who have ruled Turkey for as long as it’s been called Turkey, at minimum.

    The “elite” attempted a coup in order to “borrow” the Turkish Army for operations aimed at saving The Greater Israel Project in Syria, which Putin has very nearly shut down. And yes, Mr Giraldi, they had a lot of help from their “western” friends, as they always do.

    Gulen is clearly CIA so to say he was not involved is just a little thin.

    I mean, for cryin’ out loud, some things really are as obvious as they seem. You know who runs the CIA as well as anyone.

    Who you jivin’ with this cosmic debris?

    Read More
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  48. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    Erdogan says the coup attempt was a godsend for giving him the room to purge enemies and traitors.

    Maybe white Europeans should see the massive invasion of Europe as a godsend or godtest for revival of patriotism and nationalism.

    What is happening is a coup d’race, a wholesale attempt to overthrow an entire race of people for GLOB supremacism.

    Read More
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  49. alexander says:
    @Priss Factor
    To be fair to Erdogan, suppose there was an attempted military coup in America or Germany, and suppose it had failed.

    I can guarantee massive purges, hysteria, shaming, and blacklisting.

    Dylann Roof was some nut kid who acted on his own, but the PWB(powers that be) used that as excuse to wage total war on southern heritage.

    Zimmerman and the Fergison cop were exonerated, but the powers that be(even Obama) exploited it to spread BLM terror and even the murder of white police officers.

    Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11, but US used it as excuse to spread wars all over the Middle East.
    And who created the mess in Ukraine, even with the support of neo-nazi elements?

    Homomania destroys careers and lives with full blessing of PC-brainwashed kids.

    Erdogan is really small potaters in all this.

    If US military moved on Obama and failed in its coup, what Erdogan is doing would look like child's play. And Lib Media would call for total massive purge of all 'racist' and 'nationalist' elements.

    Anonymny,

    your quote,

    ” Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11….”

    No, he did not.

    When you consider the mandate of the American people was crystal clear…..to bring the perpetrators of 9-11 to justice, it is truly a bizarre miscarriage that we invaded and destroyed an entire country that never attacked us.

    It is so bizarre in fact, it leaves any thinking person wondering what it is we stand for.

    Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe’s house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter….then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever .

    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?

    Are you the same person you were before….Are we the same Nation ?

    And if we have changed, how have we changed ?

    How do we engage ourselves and the world now that we have been deceived into murdering those who did not attack us ?

    How do regain our sense of equilibrium , our sense of justice, and our sense of collective destiny, given the fact of this tragedy ?.

    It seems it would be somehow bound up with bringing those who deceived us …..to justice ?

    It cannot turn back time, or bring back the lives to those who have lost them… but it might create a kind of closure for the United States, we can regain at least part of our selves once those who have defrauded us into committing the act of murder have been brought to heel.

    Your thoughts ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    well said, Alexander.

    I'd add this:

    Congresspeople trip over themselves to acknowledge, "We were misinformed; the war was a mistake."

    OK

    So what does one do when a mistake is discovered, or it becomes known that one took an action based on mistaken [mistaken my ass; they were lies -ed] information?

    Do you continue to pursue the original agenda?

    Or do you apologize deeply, make reparations, and LEAVE.
    , @Priss Factor
    "Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe’s house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter….then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever.
    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?"

    Actually, it is worse.

    If you really believed Joe was responsible and destroyed his house out of genuine mistake, there was at least the sincerity of intention. Upon discovering your tragic mistake carried out in a state of rage, you can apologize and pay reparations.

    But suppose you knew Joe had nothing to do with it but made up a whole bunch of lies because Joe happens to be hated by some powerful people whose support and money you want on your side.

    So, suppose you spread lies about Joe and destroyed his house purely for opportunistic reasons.

    Your scenario is awful, but it is tragic. One can become morally enraged and do crazy things.
    But it is at least understandable from an emotional viewpoint. People become unhinged when wronged. It is all too human.

    But in the alternative scenario, there is only cold-blooded cynicism. It was based not on blind rage but cold-blooded calculation. It is purest gangsterism.

    And that is what happened with Iraq War. Those who pushed it knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They weren't mistaken. They were out to fool us. They weren't so much serving American people's demand for justice as fanning populist flames to take the war from Afghanistan to Iraq. (Go shopping and outsource your rage to us who will take care of it by expanding the War on Terror to.... Iraq.)

    GOP wanted to win over the Jews, and by remaking the Middle East according to Neocon plan(with blessing of even NYT), it gamble on the war.
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  50. RobinG says:
    @A Concerned Citizen

    Erdogan has been jailing journalists for the past three years on charges of treason and has made it a crime to criticize himself.
     
    He did not make it a crime to criticize himself. The law is in effect since 1980's, do your research.

    And most recently he has rounded up and arrested 20,000 Turks who have the misfortunate of appearing on his “enemies” list, which clearly was prepared and ready before the coup.
     
    There was an ongoing investigation about Gulen followers, and arrest warrants had been made just before the coup attempt. This is the clearest sign that the coup is real, the officers, knowing that they would lose their positions, tried to grab power.

    And i really do not understand the people saying this coup is staged. The ruling party and the president enjoyed a solid support, polls suggested the ruling party had 51-52 percent support before the coup, and the parliamentary elections are nearly 4 years ahead. There is no need for a "staged coup", because they are not in danger of losing majority in parliament.

    That 20.000 number includes a lot of people that have been released or will be released shortly. For example, 1200 conscripts that have been arrested after the coup, have been released since because they had no connection to the attempt.

    But you only see number of arrested, because it fits a certain narrative. Released soldiers, not.

    Remember Sibel Edmonds? “The recent failed military coup was a desperate NATO attempt to stifle the emerging Turkey/Russia bond, NATO wants to see more war in Syria. now Sibel Edmond provides the details” Gilad Atzmon

    Newsbud Breaking News: Turkey’s Coup Plotters are Members of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps

    Turkish Government Issues an Official Request to NBC News Demanding Immediate Public Apology

    US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt

    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    "US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt" - Giraldi works for Campbell or just scandalous on his own?
    , @A Concerned Citizen
    Yes, i know her pretty well. I am going to show you a video, of her, explaining this stuff, the relationship between Gulen and Erdogan, and why CIA decided to get rid of him:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WAiAFqXPwZ8

    Mark the date. It is January 2014!

    Personally, i believe this is a battle between NATO backed forces and Eurasianists within the military.

    Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, a growing number of Turkish officials, both civilian and military, think that Turkey should cooperate with Russia, China, Iran and Central Asian Republics.

    They think that remaining loyal to the U.S is unnecessary, because the reason that forced Turkey to join NATO no longer exists.

    The first coup after 1991 aimed at the prime minister Erbakan, who was both anti American and Anti EU.

    In 2002, prime minister Ecevit, who was opposing the invasion of Iraq, soundly defeated in elections after a heavy economic crisis. I remember how mainstream Turkish media demonized him, they were preparing the public for the newcomer.

    Erdogan apparently got along with the US for the first 10 years. "Western media praises Erdogan" was a weekly occurence in pro-government media. Indeed, i read hundreds of op-eds and columns about how he makes Turkey a better place.

    Then, they turned on him. Why? It is partly explained by Sibel Edmonds in the video. I will add a few things.

    Erdogan tried to buy a Chinese missile defence system. A big mistake, you should only buy these from NATO's Military-Industrial Complex.

    He said" Enough with this EU guys, they are playing with us for more than 50 years. Let's join Shangai Cooperation Organisation instead" Which shows he is leaning on Eurasianist side.

    Later, the very good relations between Turkey and Russia has been severed by the downing of the Russian jet. And guess what? The pilot that shot down the jet, is one of the guys that bombed the Turkish capital in coup attempt. He has been arrested.

    He fired the former prime minister Davutoglu, who was the mastermind of Syrian policy, and replaced him with Binali Yildirim. After that, Turkish Russian relations has been restored(despite all efforts to break it) ,and just 3 days before coup, this happened:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/turkey-pm-greatest-goal-is-to-improve-relations-with-syria-and-iraq

    The complete reversal of Syrian policy, that was too much for them.

    So, a coup happened after that, when the Turks signalling the end of Syrian war and much more close relationship with its southern neighbours and Russia. It is all clear to me that this coup was a "course correction" for the Turks, to make them loyal to the NATO again.
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  51. RobinG says:
    @bunga
    Thanks for the Interesting and pertinent observations.

    Before Erdogan turned into a rogue interventionist , he was doing something that the Master did not like- working with Brazil for a negotiated settlement of Iran affairs that was scuttled after full support were received and identical demands from US were met
    Then there was Maariv - Gaza flotilla where an American lost his life

    In addition there was some tentative efforts to bring Kurds and Iraq together on Erdogan's part

    He then faced a big proto color revolution - Gezi ( I think that was the name ) in his own turfs

    He has not forgot those events and he knows what rules bind the world together .

    I am sure if he were responsible for the shooting of the Russian pilot then he was also certain that help would be on its way from the west .

    West has financed and manufactured the worst crisis after second Iraq war intentionally by upping ante, supporting rogues criminal fanatics, and marginalizing any meaningful efforts for negotiated outcome and then blaming Turkey Jordan and S Arab for mayhem and for fanaticism .
    Question is what would have happened to them if they did nit follow the script?
    Ask Zia Ul Haque of Pakistan and ask Mushrafo and check with US /west's behaviors in other parts of the worlds

    General John F. Campbell, 59, was “one of the top figures who organized and managed the soldiers behind the failed coup attempt in Turkey,” ….
    According to Yeni Safak, Campbell “also managed more than $2 billion in transactions via UBA Bank in Nigeria by using CIA links to distribute among the pro-coup military personnel in Turkey.”

    https://www.rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato-coup-turkey/

    Read More
    • Replies: @5371
    [UBA Bank in Nigeria]

    After the sudden death of these coup plotters in a helicopter accident, they will have left a large inheritance for anyone willing to share his account details to get hold of.
    , @bunga
    Nothing is impossible I think impossibility is a construct thrust upon us banning us to think outside the box.

    It was I think in 2007 when the planes with missile and nuclear bomb went missing for hours and after the exposures people started dying quickly in most mysterious circumstances
    The entire episode was some kind of inattention per the Bush Cheney gang
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  52. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    "So Turkey is inviting a future Color Revolution"

    What is Diversity?

    People of Color Revolution?

    Main colors seem to be homo 'rainbow'.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-07-26/israel-s-culture-war-is-getting-ugly

    Israel’s Culture War Is Getting Ugly

    check out the photo —
    rainbow/SoD flag,
    fat lady in stripe dress

    which one’s teh ugly?

    Read More
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  53. fnn says:

    It’s already on the Wikipedia list of autogolpes:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-coup

    Read More
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  54. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @alexander
    Anonymny,

    your quote,

    " Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11...."

    No, he did not.

    When you consider the mandate of the American people was crystal clear.....to bring the perpetrators of 9-11 to justice, it is truly a bizarre miscarriage that we invaded and destroyed an entire country that never attacked us.

    It is so bizarre in fact, it leaves any thinking person wondering what it is we stand for.

    Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe's house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter....then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever .

    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?

    Are you the same person you were before....Are we the same Nation ?

    And if we have changed, how have we changed ?

    How do we engage ourselves and the world now that we have been deceived into murdering those who did not attack us ?

    How do regain our sense of equilibrium , our sense of justice, and our sense of collective destiny, given the fact of this tragedy ?.

    It seems it would be somehow bound up with bringing those who deceived us .....to justice ?

    It cannot turn back time, or bring back the lives to those who have lost them... but it might create a kind of closure for the United States, we can regain at least part of our selves once those who have defrauded us into committing the act of murder have been brought to heel.

    Your thoughts ?

    well said, Alexander.

    I’d add this:

    Congresspeople trip over themselves to acknowledge, “We were misinformed; the war was a mistake.”

    OK

    So what does one do when a mistake is discovered, or it becomes known that one took an action based on mistaken [mistaken my ass; they were lies -ed] information?

    Do you continue to pursue the original agenda?

    Or do you apologize deeply, make reparations, and LEAVE.

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  55. Art says:

    The one good thing that can be said about the failed coup in Turkey is that the country is still together.

    If the military had won – the Israeli Jews would have been able to break up the country – that has been their goal since 1948.

    Another failed ME state is NOT what the world needs.

    Erdogan bad – a shattered Turkey worse.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {Erdogan bad – a shattered Turkey worse.}

    No: shattered Turkey great.
    Criminal, genocidal, terrorist, IslamoFascist nomad state of 'Turkey' has no legal right to exist.
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  56. Eagle says:
    @Avery
    {At the very least, he fights for Turkishness.}

    What the eff is the so-called "Turkishness"?

    'Turks' are squatters in Asia Minor.
    Genocidal Uyguroğlar criminals.


    "Turkishness" ? What the f___ is that?
    The so-called 'Turks' are a nomadic tribe from Uyguristan, squatting on Christian lands.

    Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population. So, how can you make claim that this land for Christian and this land is not? The planet is land and water mass, and humans are like like seeds in the wind. you never know where they will take root.
    You can’t lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    humans are like like seeds in the wind
     
    speak for yourself

    human are not like animals, we are animals

    and like all territorial animals, we either defend our territory or we relinquish it to other animals/tribes/prides

    just like any apes or lions or men

    you can consider yourself a seed if that suits you, but please, speak for yourself ;)
    , @Avery
    {Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population.}

    You have no idea what you are bloviating about.
    Turkic nomad tribes were _not_ Mongols.
    And all your other vacuous assertions are also false.

    {You can’t lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.}

    If you can't lay claim on a piece of "dirt", can I come and claim your house? Or maybe you are homeless, living under a bridge.

    Also, if nothing belongs to anyone, can I come and take what little you may or may not have? Can I take your worthless life? After all, you too will pass on and nothing belongs to you, or me, or to Joe Blow....nothing does anyway: Yes?

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  57. Avery says:
    @Art
    The one good thing that can be said about the failed coup in Turkey is that the country is still together.

    If the military had won – the Israeli Jews would have been able to break up the country – that has been their goal since 1948.

    Another failed ME state is NOT what the world needs.

    Erdogan bad – a shattered Turkey worse.

    {Erdogan bad – a shattered Turkey worse.}

    No: shattered Turkey great.
    Criminal, genocidal, terrorist, IslamoFascist nomad state of ‘Turkey’ has no legal right to exist.

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  58. Clyde says:

    #1 No Jews or Israel involved in this coup and Erdogans heavy handed response
    #2 Mr Giraldi did not mention that Erdogan’s regime is a kleptocracy that is making Erdogan and his family and his cronies billionaires and millionaires. Islamic fundamentalism purity is the ideological cover used for this massive rip off
    #3 Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation. What is the most democratic Muslim nation these days?

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    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    What is the most democratic Muslim nation these days?
     
    Iran

    Only two Muslim countries in the Middle East have long experience with democracy: Iran and Turkey. They are logical partners for the United States. Reset: Iran, Turkey, and America's Future, by Stephen Kinzer
     
    Iran

    By reviving memories of an ousted leader, Iran's protesters are signalling they want to win reform without US intervention
    , @Art
    Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation.

    What good is democracy if you use it steal the private property of a people who lived in the same place for 2,000 years? Voting to do so shows the character of the voters. Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.

    p.s. A stain far greater then the over hyped holocaust.
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  59. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:
    @alexander
    Anonymny,

    your quote,

    " Hussein had nothing to do with 9-11...."

    No, he did not.

    When you consider the mandate of the American people was crystal clear.....to bring the perpetrators of 9-11 to justice, it is truly a bizarre miscarriage that we invaded and destroyed an entire country that never attacked us.

    It is so bizarre in fact, it leaves any thinking person wondering what it is we stand for.

    Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe's house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter....then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever .

    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?

    Are you the same person you were before....Are we the same Nation ?

    And if we have changed, how have we changed ?

    How do we engage ourselves and the world now that we have been deceived into murdering those who did not attack us ?

    How do regain our sense of equilibrium , our sense of justice, and our sense of collective destiny, given the fact of this tragedy ?.

    It seems it would be somehow bound up with bringing those who deceived us .....to justice ?

    It cannot turn back time, or bring back the lives to those who have lost them... but it might create a kind of closure for the United States, we can regain at least part of our selves once those who have defrauded us into committing the act of murder have been brought to heel.

    Your thoughts ?

    “Consider that you deliberately blow up Joe’s house (and everybody in it), thinking that he ran over and killed your daughter….then you find out, after the fact, that he had nothing to do with the death of your daughter, whatsoever.
    Having realized this, what is it you have now become ?”

    Actually, it is worse.

    If you really believed Joe was responsible and destroyed his house out of genuine mistake, there was at least the sincerity of intention. Upon discovering your tragic mistake carried out in a state of rage, you can apologize and pay reparations.

    But suppose you knew Joe had nothing to do with it but made up a whole bunch of lies because Joe happens to be hated by some powerful people whose support and money you want on your side.

    So, suppose you spread lies about Joe and destroyed his house purely for opportunistic reasons.

    Your scenario is awful, but it is tragic. One can become morally enraged and do crazy things.
    But it is at least understandable from an emotional viewpoint. People become unhinged when wronged. It is all too human.

    But in the alternative scenario, there is only cold-blooded cynicism. It was based not on blind rage but cold-blooded calculation. It is purest gangsterism.

    And that is what happened with Iraq War. Those who pushed it knew Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. They weren’t mistaken. They were out to fool us. They weren’t so much serving American people’s demand for justice as fanning populist flames to take the war from Afghanistan to Iraq. (Go shopping and outsource your rage to us who will take care of it by expanding the War on Terror to…. Iraq.)

    GOP wanted to win over the Jews, and by remaking the Middle East according to Neocon plan(with blessing of even NYT), it gamble on the war.

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  60. @Clyde
    #1 No Jews or Israel involved in this coup and Erdogans heavy handed response
    #2 Mr Giraldi did not mention that Erdogan's regime is a kleptocracy that is making Erdogan and his family and his cronies billionaires and millionaires. Islamic fundamentalism purity is the ideological cover used for this massive rip off
    #3 Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation. What is the most democratic Muslim nation these days?

    What is the most democratic Muslim nation these days?

    Iran

    Only two Muslim countries in the Middle East have long experience with democracy: Iran and Turkey. They are logical partners for the United States. Reset: Iran, Turkey, and America’s Future, by Stephen Kinzer

    Iran

    By reviving memories of an ousted leader, Iran’s protesters are signalling they want to win reform without US intervention

    Read More
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  61. utu says:
    @RobinG
    Remember Sibel Edmonds? "The recent failed military coup was a desperate NATO attempt to stifle the emerging Turkey/Russia bond, NATO wants to see more war in Syria. now Sibel Edmond provides the details" Gilad Atzmon

    Newsbud Breaking News: Turkey’s Coup Plotters are Members of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps

    Turkish Government Issues an Official Request to NBC News Demanding Immediate Public Apology

    US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt
     
    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/

    “US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt” – Giraldi works for Campbell or just scandalous on his own?

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  62. Rurik says:
    @Eagle
    Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population. So, how can you make claim that this land for Christian and this land is not? The planet is land and water mass, and humans are like like seeds in the wind. you never know where they will take root.
    You can't lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.

    humans are like like seeds in the wind

    speak for yourself

    human are not like animals, we are animals

    and like all territorial animals, we either defend our territory or we relinquish it to other animals/tribes/prides

    just like any apes or lions or men

    you can consider yourself a seed if that suits you, but please, speak for yourself ;)

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    • Replies: @helena
    Good point. Only yesterday some liberal was referring to Trump supporters as not up with 'the times' as if 'the times' were an environmental influence devoid of human agency. And so you're right to flag up this analogy. Liberals/leftists/progs see humans as seeds dispersed across the planet; seeds which can be planted, watered, hoed, by ideology. What liberals/leftists/progs aim at with their social engineering is a plantation of people. But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.
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  63. KA says:
    @Caterina
    Still blaming Bush? Good lord.

    Do you blame the hijackers for thevmental health breadown , anger,anxiety and in some cases slow death of the police officers and firefighters who were exposed to 911 ?
    Do you place the blame for agent orange victim to Gulf war ?
    Do you blame the the war architects from Kennedy to Nixon for ruined lives of Vietnamese and Cambodians? I do.
    Do you blame the sun exposure for the skin cancers? I do.

    Yes , I blame that maggot .It doesn’t mean I don’t blame other fleas and sharks

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  64. @RobinG
    Remember Sibel Edmonds? "The recent failed military coup was a desperate NATO attempt to stifle the emerging Turkey/Russia bond, NATO wants to see more war in Syria. now Sibel Edmond provides the details" Gilad Atzmon

    Newsbud Breaking News: Turkey’s Coup Plotters are Members of NATO’s Rapid Deployable Corps

    Turkish Government Issues an Official Request to NBC News Demanding Immediate Public Apology

    US General Campbell: The ‘Likely’ NBC News Source in its Scandalous False Reporting on the Turkey Coup Attempt
     
    http://www.boilingfrogspost.com/

    Yes, i know her pretty well. I am going to show you a video, of her, explaining this stuff, the relationship between Gulen and Erdogan, and why CIA decided to get rid of him:

    Mark the date. It is January 2014!

    Personally, i believe this is a battle between NATO backed forces and Eurasianists within the military.

    Since the dissolution of the Soviet Union, a growing number of Turkish officials, both civilian and military, think that Turkey should cooperate with Russia, China, Iran and Central Asian Republics.

    They think that remaining loyal to the U.S is unnecessary, because the reason that forced Turkey to join NATO no longer exists.

    The first coup after 1991 aimed at the prime minister Erbakan, who was both anti American and Anti EU.

    In 2002, prime minister Ecevit, who was opposing the invasion of Iraq, soundly defeated in elections after a heavy economic crisis. I remember how mainstream Turkish media demonized him, they were preparing the public for the newcomer.

    Erdogan apparently got along with the US for the first 10 years. “Western media praises Erdogan” was a weekly occurence in pro-government media. Indeed, i read hundreds of op-eds and columns about how he makes Turkey a better place.

    Then, they turned on him. Why? It is partly explained by Sibel Edmonds in the video. I will add a few things.

    Erdogan tried to buy a Chinese missile defence system. A big mistake, you should only buy these from NATO’s Military-Industrial Complex.

    He said” Enough with this EU guys, they are playing with us for more than 50 years. Let’s join Shangai Cooperation Organisation instead” Which shows he is leaning on Eurasianist side.

    Later, the very good relations between Turkey and Russia has been severed by the downing of the Russian jet. And guess what? The pilot that shot down the jet, is one of the guys that bombed the Turkish capital in coup attempt. He has been arrested.

    He fired the former prime minister Davutoglu, who was the mastermind of Syrian policy, and replaced him with Binali Yildirim. After that, Turkish Russian relations has been restored(despite all efforts to break it) ,and just 3 days before coup, this happened:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/13/turkey-pm-greatest-goal-is-to-improve-relations-with-syria-and-iraq

    The complete reversal of Syrian policy, that was too much for them.

    So, a coup happened after that, when the Turks signalling the end of Syrian war and much more close relationship with its southern neighbours and Russia. It is all clear to me that this coup was a “course correction” for the Turks, to make them loyal to the NATO again.

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  65. “Some absurdly see the hand of the CIA working together with Pennsylvania exile Fethullah Gulen to bring down the Turkish government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a hypothesis that greatly exaggerates the capabilities and intentions of both the Agency and Gulen’s “Hizmet” Movement”

    Giraldi is off his rocker once again. Orchestrating a coup against a foreign government with the help of a wealthy and powerful asset with deep links inside the government they wish to overthrow is definitely not out of the reach of the CIA. He is so desperate to believe this nonsense, he’s seeing chem-trails and false flags everywhere. Considering the sheer scope of this coup attempt, it’s just impossible to believe that any kind of false flag of this scale could be covered up for long. As for intention, the US government has quite often acted irrationally and incompetently, so I’m not surprised that they may have done so once again.

    “Surprisingly, these assessments come from observers who have previously in other contexts not hesitated to note how governments dissimulate and shape stories to suit their agendas.”

    And that’s exactly what’s happening here. Propagating the ridiculous false flag conspiracy theory would definitely benefit the US government if it had a hand in what happened in Turkey.

    “Recep Tayyip Erdogan is an autocrat who might even better be described as a megalomaniac driven to promote policies that are both self-serving and erratic that rely on incendiary populist appeals to maintain power. He heads an increasingly corrupt regime and has ruthlessly sacrificed his own people to his own ambition”

    And that sums up why Giraldi believes the false flag conspiracy theory: he doesn’t like the guy personally. Erdogan = bad; therefore, coup-attempt = Erdogan’s fault. Everything he said could be true, but none of that proves that this was a false flag. The fact that Erdogan has exploited an ill-considered and illegal coup-attempt to strengthen his hold on power also doesn’t prove what Giraldi thinks it does.

    “The coup plotters appear to have been appalled by the domestic and international violence unleashed by Erdogan, calling themselves a “peace at home council.”

    1. Obviously, anyone risking death to illegally overthrow a democratically-elected government is going to claim the moral high ground, but I tend to be more skeptical and not just take anyone at their word. For all Giraldi knows, they were promised great wealth and military promotions should they have succeeded.

    2. Wait, if this was a false-flag, then why would there be any “real” coup-plotters worth quoting? Why would Erdogan bad-mouth himself in such a realistic way? Why wouldn’t he have engineered a coup with people spouting Kurdish-separatist propaganda, or something else equally unlikely but equally in character with the guy organizing the false-flag? Is Erdogan really that intelligent?

    “Today in Turkey we see developing the myth of the proud and devout Anatolian peasants standing up for their Man when confronted by the Turkish elites seeking to bring him down.”

    But isn’t that what happened? Pictures and videos of it are everywhere. A group in the Turkish establishment, unrepresentative of the Turkish majority, tried to overthrow the leader they elected and were rebuffed by hordes of protesters. I’ve seen video of it. Seems real enough to me….unless that too was staged (don’t even go there).

    In this poorly-written rant, Giraldi offers absolutely ZERO evidence to suggest that the Turkish coup attempt was a false flag. All he does is list reasons to hate Turkey’s president as if they were evidence. The entire article is nothing but a list of reasons to not like Erdogan, period.

    Isn’t it convenient that this conspiracy theory just happens to fit Giraldi’s world-view? It reminds me of the saying, “when you become obsessed with the enemy, you become the enemy.” In this case it might as well be, “when you become obsessed with conspiracy theories, you see conspiracy theories everywhere.” Perhaps, there is a legitimate conspiracy here, but if there is, it lies with the American government and not with a tin-pot Turk bestowed with God-like ability to manage impossibly complex coups.

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  66. KA says:
    @Regnum Nostrum
    I have read the article three times looking for some evidence or at least some assumptions supporting the claim of a faked coup but I have not found any. What I did find was a lot of ridiculous claims like the one that CIA is incapable of organizing an overthrow of a government. Really? Another one says there was no heroic resistance on the part of the people. I suppose in the eyes of the author the death of more than two hundred civilians is a clear sign of cowardice.

    “t is possible that the false flag operation produced no information of value and the CIA lost interest in it. ”
    “…………………….

    “Also, nothing in those reports provides any reason to disbelieve the possibility that the CIA, the CTC and the agency’s top management hid a false flag operation that went wrong. Anyone involved in such a false flag operation would have good reason to hide it”

    Richard Clarke

    http://abcnews.go.com/International/28-pages-questions-alleged-saudi-spy-cia/story?id=40697425

    If Richard Clarke could openly write about possibility of failed false flag operations by CIA and CTC, then it can be assumed these events are not aberration but par for the course .

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  67. Avery says:
    @Eagle
    Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population. So, how can you make claim that this land for Christian and this land is not? The planet is land and water mass, and humans are like like seeds in the wind. you never know where they will take root.
    You can't lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.

    {Uyguroglar? Spelling wrong and the history that goes along with it. It is your Christian brethren lives in Turkey today and converted long ago. You are right, there is no such thing as A Turk. The word originated from Chinese and stuck. The invaders were Mongols and their numbers were less the 20% of the total population. They no longer exist, dissolved into indigenous population.}

    You have no idea what you are bloviating about.
    Turkic nomad tribes were _not_ Mongols.
    And all your other vacuous assertions are also false.

    {You can’t lay a claim on a piece of dirt. You too will pass on and nothing will belong to you, nothing does anyway.}

    If you can’t lay claim on a piece of “dirt”, can I come and claim your house? Or maybe you are homeless, living under a bridge.

    Also, if nothing belongs to anyone, can I come and take what little you may or may not have? Can I take your worthless life? After all, you too will pass on and nothing belongs to you, or me, or to Joe Blow….nothing does anyway: Yes?

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  68. AndrewR says:

    Why didnt the coup plotters capture or kill him before attempting the coup? Did they not foresee him telling his Anatolian hordes to quash the voup?

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    • Replies: @Simon in London
    They tried, but misstimed and ended up with coup in Istambul starting a couple hours before Erdogan hit team was due to get him, giving him enough time to escape.

    People don't magically become more competent when engaged in conspiracy.
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  69. Cato says:

    What is this with unz.com and Turkey? First Eric Margolis and now the otherwise highly reliable Phil Giraldi. No one accepts the story coming out of Turkey, a story which to me has all the hallmarks of truth. The Gulen people have in fact managed to plant their cadre all over the military, police, and public education. They did this by stealing the civil service exams and university admissions exams, and then prepping peasant kids from Anatolia so that they would become among the top scorers. The story now coming out (see the latest issues of Hurriyet) is that, since the 1990s, over 70% of military academy cadets were Gulenists. Why they chose this moment to strike is still unclear. Perhaps trying to fulfill a prophecy (they believe that Gulen’s successor will introduce sharia). Or perhaps at the urging of the Americans (Erdogan has pissed everyone off, including America). But the coup clearly has nothing to do with the seculars, who are a spent force in Turkish politics, and everything to do with the Gulen cult.

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    • Replies: @Art

    The Gulen people have in fact managed to plant their cadre all over the military, police, and public education.
     
    One has to be a fool to think that the US government does not know every time that this Gulen clown passes gas. And what the US knows the Israelis know. Two to one, this Gulen and the Mossad are thick as thieves.

    Things are not going good for Israel in Syria – the Israeli are close to the Kurds – it is time to fracture Turkey and Syria for the benefit of Israel - period.

    Kudos to Obama for not going along with it.

    , @Simon in London
    I agree, but I think the Gulenists do hope to appeal to the secularist remnants that share their anti-Erdoganism.

    Also I've no idea why CIA involvement is implausible - they do this often enough! Maybe Giraldi missed Erdogan's overtures to Russia immediately prior to the coup...

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  70. @alexander
    Its a sad day for Turkey, any way you slice it.

    Emergency powers ..... brutal crackdowns.....mass arrests.....school closings ......executions......Not all the good stuff to write home about.

    It seems like "police state fascism" , spreading like a plague in the wake of terror events, coups, and what have you , is becoming the new normal.

    All the elixirs that went into concocting our post "9-11" world seem to be re-potion-ed and served up to suitable countries everywhere around the world.

    Like a formula that not only works well for those who despise free societies, but provides a never ending financial boon to the security industries that thrive on it.

    I am hard pressed to see this "coup event" and its aftermath as anything more then a spread of this disease, in one more form.

    The idea that this event indicates an Erdogan who has had a moral "epiphany" and has thrown off the yolk of his pernicious handlers, would be a welcome outcome, but given his recent track record ,I am pretty skeptical, Rurik.

    But as you said, we shall see.

    Seems to me with so many random acts of violence occurring and by means of using increasingly simple tools, knives, cars and trucks, the idea is for these acts to increase until a tipping point is reached with people demanding a machine gun armed cop on every street corner for our own protection. By an amazing coincidence police state fascism will likely take over at about the same time as a financial meltdown occurs.

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  71. Art says:
    @Clyde
    #1 No Jews or Israel involved in this coup and Erdogans heavy handed response
    #2 Mr Giraldi did not mention that Erdogan's regime is a kleptocracy that is making Erdogan and his family and his cronies billionaires and millionaires. Islamic fundamentalism purity is the ideological cover used for this massive rip off
    #3 Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation. What is the most democratic Muslim nation these days?

    Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation.

    What good is democracy if you use it steal the private property of a people who lived in the same place for 2,000 years? Voting to do so shows the character of the voters. Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.

    p.s. A stain far greater then the over hyped holocaust.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.

    The nomad Turkic invaders from East Asia are still squatting in Cyprus.
    The 40% Turks occupy has been completely ethnically cleansed of its indigenous Cypriot Greeks.
    Before that, nomad Turks murdered and ethnically cleansed most of the indigenous peoples of the lands now occupied by nomad Turks.

    At least some Israelis/Jews have a historic link to Judea.
    What historic link do nomad Turks from Uyguristan have to Asia Minor?
    Since the founding of Israel, Israelis have murdered or killed maybe 25,000 Palestinians max: civilian and combatant.

    Invadonomad Turks have murdered about 4 million indigenous Christians of Asia Minor since 1915, almost all defenseless civilians: Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks.
    , @Clyde

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.
     
    NOPE! Arab nations kicked out 800,000 Jews so the accounts are even. Islam is the world most virulent and long lasting imperialism. Germans are idiots for allowing in one million plus Muslim migrants last summer. The opposite should be happening where Islamic nation are getting de-Islamized and neutered.
    You are jealous of the Jews holding back Muslim imperialism while the European saps cave in to it
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  72. @alexander
    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ....so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a "faux coup" designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of "perpetual" warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine's eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country's role in the Syria fiasco.

    The "faux coup" has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.


    Like our "9-11", a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,....... and a great day for Israel.

    Your suggestion that Erdogan is “a tool for the powers that be” is new to me. Can you elaborate on who it is that manipulate him as a tool, how it is done and what their policies and objectives are?

    To my simple view he appears as a Hitler with differences of ideology which are not very different but have references to Allah attached.

    My opening question is the substance of this, not my comparison with Hitler.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Turkey, under Erdogan, has played handmaiden to the systematic destruction of all the countries that form what you might call the "Shia Crescent".

    Stretching from Beirut to Tehran, the arc of countries that forms the crescent, and their destruction, have been the primary goal of the Neocons and Israel for the last two decades (at least)

    This would include Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, as well as Iran.

    In case you hadn't noticed, Turkey has played a pivotal role in the destruction of these countries, first in providing logistical support and a base of operations for the catastrophic US invasion of Iraq, and most recently acting as the lead scalpel in the dismemberment of Syria.

    For Israel to succeed in its master plan to exterminate any viable state of Palestine as well as steal, forever, the Golan Heights from Syria, meant that it had to nullify the potential hurting power of all those countries most likely to resist and most supportive of the Palestinian cause.

    The destruction of Iraq, the dismemberment of Syria, the bombing of Lebanon and the brutal sanctions on Iran have all occurred simultaneously with the total collapse of the peace process,the annexation of the Palestinian territories beyond the green line, and the pulverization of Gaza.

    Haven't you noticed any of this ?

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  73. Art says:
    @Cato
    What is this with unz.com and Turkey? First Eric Margolis and now the otherwise highly reliable Phil Giraldi. No one accepts the story coming out of Turkey, a story which to me has all the hallmarks of truth. The Gulen people have in fact managed to plant their cadre all over the military, police, and public education. They did this by stealing the civil service exams and university admissions exams, and then prepping peasant kids from Anatolia so that they would become among the top scorers. The story now coming out (see the latest issues of Hurriyet) is that, since the 1990s, over 70% of military academy cadets were Gulenists. Why they chose this moment to strike is still unclear. Perhaps trying to fulfill a prophecy (they believe that Gulen's successor will introduce sharia). Or perhaps at the urging of the Americans (Erdogan has pissed everyone off, including America). But the coup clearly has nothing to do with the seculars, who are a spent force in Turkish politics, and everything to do with the Gulen cult.

    The Gulen people have in fact managed to plant their cadre all over the military, police, and public education.

    One has to be a fool to think that the US government does not know every time that this Gulen clown passes gas. And what the US knows the Israelis know. Two to one, this Gulen and the Mossad are thick as thieves.

    Things are not going good for Israel in Syria – the Israeli are close to the Kurds – it is time to fracture Turkey and Syria for the benefit of Israel – period.

    Kudos to Obama for not going along with it.

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  74. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says: • Website

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3709082/Migration-kills-Chilling-chalk-body-outlines-fake-blood-vile-notes-left-German-train-stations-far-Right-group-fires-warning-refugees.html

    Well, shame on the ‘far right’ groups for creating fake murder-crime scenes.

    I guess it’s better for far-left groups to create REAL murder-crime scenes all over EU with their support of mass immigration to feed their PC moral vanity as ‘good whites’ against ‘bad whites’.

    Read More
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  75. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @alexander
    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ....so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a "faux coup" designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of "perpetual" warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine's eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country's role in the Syria fiasco.

    The "faux coup" has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.


    Like our "9-11", a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,....... and a great day for Israel.

    Your post is ridiculous. You claim that the failed coup “is great for Israel!” Even a baby wouldn’t utter such nonsense! Some thing tells me that you are really sad about the failed coup, perhaps because you rightly feel it was real loss for Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Well Jim, everyone is entitled to their opinion.




    PS. Except I suppose all those BDS'ers, .......THEIR opinion simply will not do.
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  76. 5371 says:
    @RobinG

    General John F. Campbell, 59, was "one of the top figures who organized and managed the soldiers behind the failed coup attempt in Turkey," ....
    According to Yeni Safak, Campbell "also managed more than $2 billion in transactions via UBA Bank in Nigeria by using CIA links to distribute among the pro-coup military personnel in Turkey."
     
    https://www.rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato-coup-turkey/

    [UBA Bank in Nigeria]

    After the sudden death of these coup plotters in a helicopter accident, they will have left a large inheritance for anyone willing to share his account details to get hold of.

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  77. Weird – the article itself is reasonable, but in no way supports the ‘phony’ false flag coup claim in the title – which is a line being perpetuated by mainstream Western media.
    Reality:

    1. Erdogan is nasty.
    2. Coup attempt was real.

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  78. @AndrewR
    Why didnt the coup plotters capture or kill him before attempting the coup? Did they not foresee him telling his Anatolian hordes to quash the voup?

    They tried, but misstimed and ended up with coup in Istambul starting a couple hours before Erdogan hit team was due to get him, giving him enough time to escape.

    People don’t magically become more competent when engaged in conspiracy.

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  79. @Cato
    What is this with unz.com and Turkey? First Eric Margolis and now the otherwise highly reliable Phil Giraldi. No one accepts the story coming out of Turkey, a story which to me has all the hallmarks of truth. The Gulen people have in fact managed to plant their cadre all over the military, police, and public education. They did this by stealing the civil service exams and university admissions exams, and then prepping peasant kids from Anatolia so that they would become among the top scorers. The story now coming out (see the latest issues of Hurriyet) is that, since the 1990s, over 70% of military academy cadets were Gulenists. Why they chose this moment to strike is still unclear. Perhaps trying to fulfill a prophecy (they believe that Gulen's successor will introduce sharia). Or perhaps at the urging of the Americans (Erdogan has pissed everyone off, including America). But the coup clearly has nothing to do with the seculars, who are a spent force in Turkish politics, and everything to do with the Gulen cult.

    I agree, but I think the Gulenists do hope to appeal to the secularist remnants that share their anti-Erdoganism.

    Also I’ve no idea why CIA involvement is implausible – they do this often enough! Maybe Giraldi missed Erdogan’s overtures to Russia immediately prior to the coup…

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    • Replies: @Cato
    I thought about the Russia thing. But it was not only rapprochement with Russia, it was also rapprochement with Israel. Obviously a very deep game--the kind every player in the region prides themselves on playing. Inshallah Trump gets us out of there!
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  80. Avery says:
    @Art
    Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation.

    What good is democracy if you use it steal the private property of a people who lived in the same place for 2,000 years? Voting to do so shows the character of the voters. Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.

    p.s. A stain far greater then the over hyped holocaust.

    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.

    The nomad Turkic invaders from East Asia are still squatting in Cyprus.
    The 40% Turks occupy has been completely ethnically cleansed of its indigenous Cypriot Greeks.
    Before that, nomad Turks murdered and ethnically cleansed most of the indigenous peoples of the lands now occupied by nomad Turks.

    At least some Israelis/Jews have a historic link to Judea.
    What historic link do nomad Turks from Uyguristan have to Asia Minor?
    Since the founding of Israel, Israelis have murdered or killed maybe 25,000 Palestinians max: civilian and combatant.

    Invadonomad Turks have murdered about 4 million indigenous Christians of Asia Minor since 1915, almost all defenseless civilians: Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks.

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    • Replies: @Art

    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.
     

    Wiki:
    International pressure led to a ceasefire, and by then 37% of the island had been taken over by the Turks and 180,000 Greek Cypriots had been evicted from their homes in the north.[110] At the same time, around 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved to the areas under the control of the Turkish Forces and settled in the properties of the displaced Greek Cypriots. There are 1,534 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots missing as a result of the fighting.

    The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.

    How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world's Jews?

    How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.

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  81. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    Wonderful Corbet report

    I sure liked Sibel’s remark about how you can learn something from listening to the lair MSM…
    you hear that bs, and you think about the bs… and you can figure… go figure.

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  82. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    what Sibel said… is So great!

    she said it is a possibility that that guy.. Ergodan.. he as a chance, he is in the position to be a ”mench” he has it in his hands, he might be a mench… he could be a HERO!

    Now you and me can’t do that today or tomorw… But he… That guy… could be a Hero… Ugly ass that he is… Erdogan Ergodan… what ever… He can be the next hero… and go out with a good story…. unlike most of us.. (you or me… ), No I sure didn’t do much to say anything about in this life time of mine…

    Sibel is too much

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  83. alexander says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Your suggestion that Erdogan is "a tool for the powers that be" is new to me. Can you elaborate on who it is that manipulate him as a tool, how it is done and what their policies and objectives are?

    To my simple view he appears as a Hitler with differences of ideology which are not very different but have references to Allah attached.

    My opening question is the substance of this, not my comparison with Hitler.

    Turkey, under Erdogan, has played handmaiden to the systematic destruction of all the countries that form what you might call the “Shia Crescent”.

    Stretching from Beirut to Tehran, the arc of countries that forms the crescent, and their destruction, have been the primary goal of the Neocons and Israel for the last two decades (at least)

    This would include Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, as well as Iran.

    In case you hadn’t noticed, Turkey has played a pivotal role in the destruction of these countries, first in providing logistical support and a base of operations for the catastrophic US invasion of Iraq, and most recently acting as the lead scalpel in the dismemberment of Syria.

    For Israel to succeed in its master plan to exterminate any viable state of Palestine as well as steal, forever, the Golan Heights from Syria, meant that it had to nullify the potential hurting power of all those countries most likely to resist and most supportive of the Palestinian cause.

    The destruction of Iraq, the dismemberment of Syria, the bombing of Lebanon and the brutal sanctions on Iran have all occurred simultaneously with the total collapse of the peace process,the annexation of the Palestinian territories beyond the green line, and the pulverization of Gaza.

    Haven’t you noticed any of this ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    That's all very interesting, but haven't *you* noticed that it doesn't answer my question unless "post hos propter hoc" is no longer fallacious.

    As to the facts, my recollection is that Turkey was very uncoopetative with US invasion plans in 2003.

    And, anyway, isn't the would-be Ottoman revivalist naturally keen on much of the ssme fragmentation of Arab states as Israel without any string pulling by "powers that be"?

    , @anonymous
    good points, Alexander

    but

    twice Erdogan acted out against the imperial masters (US-Israel)

    remember when Erdogan chastised Shimon Peres for Israel's attacks on the Mavimarmara, that killed mostly Turks, including a Turkish-American? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/30/turkish-prime-minister-gaza-davos


    and remember when in 2010 Turkey cooperated with Brazil to negotiate a deal to sequester Iran's nukes, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/world/middleeast/17iran.html?_r=0

    but Her Honor (term used loosely) Hill Clinton strangled the baby in its cradle http://www.thenational.ae/world/us-rejects-iran-nuclear-deal-brokered-by-turkey-and-brazil-and-sets-up-new-sanctions

    So -- Turkey has acted contrary to US interests and demands, and has been forced to back down from those acts of independence.
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  84. alexander says:
    @Anonymous
    Your post is ridiculous. You claim that the failed coup "is great for Israel!" Even a baby wouldn't utter such nonsense! Some thing tells me that you are really sad about the failed coup, perhaps because you rightly feel it was real loss for Israel.

    Well Jim, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

    PS. Except I suppose all those BDS’ers, …….THEIR opinion simply will not do.

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  85. Clyde says:
    @Art
    Israel is a democratic paradise compared to Turkey which used to be called the most democratic Muslim nation.

    What good is democracy if you use it steal the private property of a people who lived in the same place for 2,000 years? Voting to do so shows the character of the voters. Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.

    p.s. A stain far greater then the over hyped holocaust.

    Palestine will always be a stain on the Jew people.

    NOPE! Arab nations kicked out 800,000 Jews so the accounts are even. Islam is the world most virulent and long lasting imperialism. Germans are idiots for allowing in one million plus Muslim migrants last summer. The opposite should be happening where Islamic nation are getting de-Islamized and neutered.
    You are jealous of the Jews holding back Muslim imperialism while the European saps cave in to it

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  86. helena says:
    @Rurik

    humans are like like seeds in the wind
     
    speak for yourself

    human are not like animals, we are animals

    and like all territorial animals, we either defend our territory or we relinquish it to other animals/tribes/prides

    just like any apes or lions or men

    you can consider yourself a seed if that suits you, but please, speak for yourself ;)

    Good point. Only yesterday some liberal was referring to Trump supporters as not up with ‘the times’ as if ‘the times’ were an environmental influence devoid of human agency. And so you’re right to flag up this analogy. Liberals/leftists/progs see humans as seeds dispersed across the planet; seeds which can be planted, watered, hoed, by ideology. What liberals/leftists/progs aim at with their social engineering is a plantation of people. But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.
     
    I agree Helena

    it is territorial and hegemonic

    but the disease of liberalism, being spread by the liberal media, (much like tossing plague contaminated meat into the village well), it's creating zombies of the European/Western civilization's people. Islam doesn't even need a sword to conquer the lands of Europe or North America/Oceana. Liberalism has simply rendered the people of the West into sniveling cowards and moral cretins, unwilling to defend even their lands or their very children from the barbarism and violence visited upon them by the invaders, both Islamic and otherwise.

    we're told that migrations simply happen, and why should we care

    just ask the Amerindian how well that worked out for him. (at least they fought back!)

    but liberalism would have us all groveling before our conquerors, and tossing rose pedals before their army's marching feet. Mustering anger only at those among them who were "racist' enough to question the wisdom of being replaced in their ancient lands. Demanding that 'of course white people must all be replaced! They're racists!!! Let them blow away like so many seeds on the dirt.

    And for the disease of liberalism, I really don't know if there is even a cure. I keep going back to this story

    http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/06/leftist-norwegian-politician-gets-raped-by-somalian-begs-for-him-not-to-be-deported/

    to remind myself the nature of the liberal, and how it isn't enough that he be brutally raped, but that he demands it for all his "racist" countrymen as well. I'll bet he prays for a Norwegian Robert Mugabe every day.

    it seems that the liberal has become the quintessential anti-man. And where a normal man would want to defend his family and tribe and see them prosper, the anti-man/liberal wants to see them humiliated and genocided off the planet.

    I'll say this.. if I had a deadly enemy, the first thing I'd like to see is for them to have a media controlled by liberals/Jews. I wouldn't even have to get out of my chair to see them crushed.
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  87. utu says:

    The false flag theory that Erdogan did it himself and blames it on some guy in Pennsylvania, CIA, America is the only false flag theory that gets traction in MSM in the US and Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    The false flag theory that Erdogan did it himself and blames it on some guy in Pennsylvania, CIA, America is the only false flag theory that gets traction in MSM
     
    the first time I head of the false flag conspiracy was from none other than James Woolsey on TV right as the coup was happening.

    I remember being struck by the fact that Woolsey (of all people) was actually giving credence to a conspiracy theory. But he wasn't necessarily suggesting that it was valid or not, just saying that it was what some people were saying. But wow, right during the coup!

    Woolsey, in case some people don't know, it the absolute, ultimate traitor and treasonous bastard befouling the very air we all breath with the putrescence of his rotten and obscene existence

    the former head of the CIA, there isn't one outrage against decency or truth that Woolsey hasn't pugnaciously vomited out of his lying, murderous face

    I'm sure PG would agree

    in the contest for worst human being on the planet, with Dick Cheney and John McCain and Hillary all competing, I give the award to none other than that most loathsome of human abominations against all decency and truth; the peerless ~ James Woolsey
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  88. Anonymous says: • Website • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    A shame Giraldi relies on the old & discredited 'Reichstag fire' canard.
    see:

    http://www.ihr.org/mwreport/2011-07-06

    The Reichstag Fire: A Nazi ‘False Flag’ Operation?
    July 6, 2011

    One of the most enduring myths of our age is the story that the Nazis set the Reichstag building on fire as a “false flag” operation to generate popular support for measures of the Hitler government to suppress dissent and consolidate power. Even some prominent historians have accepted the often repeated smear, which was invented and vigorously promoted by Communists, that Goering and other Nazi officials set the German parliament building ablaze on Feb. 27, 1933, and then cynically blamed the crime on enemies. But as Weber explains in this broadcast, the basic facts are now well established: A young Dutch Communist, Marinus van der Lubbe, acted alone in setting the Reichstag fire.
    13 MB / 32 kbps mono / 0 hour 56 min.
     
    David Irving says:


    The communists manufactured evidence to throw the blame off their man Van der Lubbe who started the fire. The Goebbels diary which I found in the Moscow archives in June 1992 proves that he and Hitler were astonished at the news that the building was on fire. The most reliable account of the fire is by Fritz Tobias (below right), who died this year." That is his book The Reichstag Fire.
    http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/10/06/images/Irving_Tobias_600.jpg
    at:
    http://www.fpp.co.uk/docs/Irving/RadDi/2012/160612.html
     
    and:

    http://www.fpp.co.uk/online/08/01/Reichstagsbrand.html
    From "Goebbels. Mastermind of the Third Reich" (London, 1996)

    THIS year, 1933, was however the year of the Big Lie. On Monday evening February 27 occurred one of the most controversial episodes of the whole era. Hitler had come to dine with the Goebbels family. Shortly, Goebbels was called away to take a phone call from Hitler's friend Ernst 'Putzi' Hanfstaengl, a well-known prankster. Hanfstaengl shouted excitedy that the Reichstag building was on fire. Since Goebbels had twitted him with a phone call only days before, he ignored the call. Hanfstaengl phoned again, this time to report that he could see flames leaping out of the Reichstag's cupola.

    Hitler and Goebbels tried to phone the Reichstag; nobody answered-- small wonder, because a phone call to the Brandenburg Gate police station confirmed that the Reichstag was on fire. They drove off at top speed down the Charlottenburg Chaussee.

    Afterwards the world's press clamoured that the Nazis themselves had started the blaze. With this author's discovery of the missing Goebbels Diary entries in Moscow, that version is finally laid to rest. He, Hitler, and Göring were equally stunned by the news.

    Hitler summons me to the Kaiserhof [the unpublished entry begins]. He's enthusiastic about my [radio] commentaries. Says Munich and Nuremberg were really great... Hitler fabulous as always... Back home to work. Much to do. At nine P.M. Hitler and Auwi [Prince August-Wilhelm] come over. Music and gossip. Then Hanfstaengl phones: says the Reichstag's burning. What an imagination! But turns out to be true. Race straight down there with Hitler. The entire building a mass of flames. [We] go in. Göring follows. Papen, whose acquaintance I thus make, is also there. Thirty arson sites. Fires set by the communists. Göring rampant, Hitler raging, Papen clear-headed. The main assembly chamber a picture of devastation. So take action now! ... To work! Hitler consults with Papen. We meet back at the Kaiserhof. Everybody beaming. This was the last straw. Now we're well away. Culprit caught, a twenty-four year old Dutch communist.

    'He's being interrogated now,' Göring told them. 'We decided straight away,' Goebbels related at the subsequent trial, 'to ban the communist press and later the social democrat press too, and to take the top communist officials into custody.'

    Göring ordered the S.A. to stand by in case of an all-out communist uprising. At midnight Hitler and Goebbels hurried over to the Völkischer Beobachter's Berlin office. It took half an hour even to get into the sleeping building, and more time was wasted while printworkers, compositors and a surly sub-editor were found. There was no sign of Rosenberg himself, the editor. Devouring the proofs of the next day's edition, Hitler finally found the sensational news tucked away in the Berlin in Brief column ('Fire damage to the Reichstag'). 'Man, are you mad,' he shouted at the subeditor. 'This is an event on a colossal scale!'

    We drove over to the VB [Goebbels' diary continues]. It is really badly laid out. Hitler sets to work there straight away. I dictate a new gau poster and a fabulous article ... During the night all communist party officials are arrested. Entire communist and social democrat press banned. Good work done... Over to Hitler at Kaiserhof. He's delighted with my article. It is half-past five in the morning... Two S.A. men shot in Berlin. To sleep at seven. Three hours. Then straight back to work !

    The fire was a Godsend to the Nazi radicals. Goebbels was already disquieted by the speed with which Hitler and even Göring were succumbing to Hindenburg's bourgeois spell. This lone communist fire-raiser had rescued the revolution. During the night he sent for the journalist Alfred-Ingemar Berndt to take down a fiery press release. Goebbels' press release announced the sweeping arrests, and described the Reichstag fire as a communist beacon, a signal for a marxist insurrection. This was as much a lie as the claim by Jewish and communist agencies worldwide that the Nazis had staged the fire. Even the authoritative Manchester Guardian published a dispatch from an anonymous special correspondent alleging that Hitler, Göring, and Goebbels had foregathered in Berlin that evening 'awaiting their fire.'

    The world's press readily copied this Big Lie, and historians in time adopted it from them.
     

    Great point.

    The Nazis-burned-the-Reichstagg meme was a skillful covert influence operation by the Comintern’s genius of influence and propaganda, Willi Muenzenberg. His operation resulted in the “Brown Book,” which is the source of Giraldi’s mistaken claim here.

    Muenzenberg went on to run the most successful covert influence operation in history–the operations to infiltrate and destroy American cultural transmission belts. This operation ultimately created American Political Correctness–the results took longer than Willi expected, but have devastated our country.

    A couple of resources:

    http://www.unite.it/UniTE/Engine/RAServeFile.php/f/File_Prof/CARLI_702/rabinbach-Reichstag.pdf

    ” Not until 1959–60, when the German newsmagazine
    Der Spiegelpublished a five-part series based on the research of the nonacademic
    historian Fritz Tobias, were the Brown Book’s falsifications and misrepre-
    sentations exposed. A few years later most professional historians were per
    -suaded that Tobias’s research was sound—the Brown Book had been discred-
    ited (at least in the Federal Republic of Germany), and the thesis of a “lone”
    arsonist widely accepted. ”

    http://en.metapedia.org/wiki/Willi_M%C3%BCnzenberg

    http://willingaccomplices.com/

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  89. @alexander
    Turkey, under Erdogan, has played handmaiden to the systematic destruction of all the countries that form what you might call the "Shia Crescent".

    Stretching from Beirut to Tehran, the arc of countries that forms the crescent, and their destruction, have been the primary goal of the Neocons and Israel for the last two decades (at least)

    This would include Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, as well as Iran.

    In case you hadn't noticed, Turkey has played a pivotal role in the destruction of these countries, first in providing logistical support and a base of operations for the catastrophic US invasion of Iraq, and most recently acting as the lead scalpel in the dismemberment of Syria.

    For Israel to succeed in its master plan to exterminate any viable state of Palestine as well as steal, forever, the Golan Heights from Syria, meant that it had to nullify the potential hurting power of all those countries most likely to resist and most supportive of the Palestinian cause.

    The destruction of Iraq, the dismemberment of Syria, the bombing of Lebanon and the brutal sanctions on Iran have all occurred simultaneously with the total collapse of the peace process,the annexation of the Palestinian territories beyond the green line, and the pulverization of Gaza.

    Haven't you noticed any of this ?

    That’s all very interesting, but haven’t *you* noticed that it doesn’t answer my question unless “post hos propter hoc” is no longer fallacious.

    As to the facts, my recollection is that Turkey was very uncoopetative with US invasion plans in 2003.

    And, anyway, isn’t the would-be Ottoman revivalist naturally keen on much of the ssme fragmentation of Arab states as Israel without any string pulling by “powers that be”?

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  90. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @alexander
    Turkey, under Erdogan, has played handmaiden to the systematic destruction of all the countries that form what you might call the "Shia Crescent".

    Stretching from Beirut to Tehran, the arc of countries that forms the crescent, and their destruction, have been the primary goal of the Neocons and Israel for the last two decades (at least)

    This would include Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon, as well as Iran.

    In case you hadn't noticed, Turkey has played a pivotal role in the destruction of these countries, first in providing logistical support and a base of operations for the catastrophic US invasion of Iraq, and most recently acting as the lead scalpel in the dismemberment of Syria.

    For Israel to succeed in its master plan to exterminate any viable state of Palestine as well as steal, forever, the Golan Heights from Syria, meant that it had to nullify the potential hurting power of all those countries most likely to resist and most supportive of the Palestinian cause.

    The destruction of Iraq, the dismemberment of Syria, the bombing of Lebanon and the brutal sanctions on Iran have all occurred simultaneously with the total collapse of the peace process,the annexation of the Palestinian territories beyond the green line, and the pulverization of Gaza.

    Haven't you noticed any of this ?

    good points, Alexander

    but

    twice Erdogan acted out against the imperial masters (US-Israel)

    remember when Erdogan chastised Shimon Peres for Israel’s attacks on the Mavimarmara, that killed mostly Turks, including a Turkish-American? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2009/jan/30/turkish-prime-minister-gaza-davos

    and remember when in 2010 Turkey cooperated with Brazil to negotiate a deal to sequester Iran’s nukes, http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/17/world/middleeast/17iran.html?_r=0

    but Her Honor (term used loosely) Hill Clinton strangled the baby in its cradle http://www.thenational.ae/world/us-rejects-iran-nuclear-deal-brokered-by-turkey-and-brazil-and-sets-up-new-sanctions

    So — Turkey has acted contrary to US interests and demands, and has been forced to back down from those acts of independence.

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  91. Maybe Erdogan’s decision to allow Turkey to act as a bottle-neck used to slow White, Christianized Europe from being submerged under floods of radical Muslim immigrants was too much for the one-worlder lobby to accept

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  92. Rurik says:
    @helena
    Good point. Only yesterday some liberal was referring to Trump supporters as not up with 'the times' as if 'the times' were an environmental influence devoid of human agency. And so you're right to flag up this analogy. Liberals/leftists/progs see humans as seeds dispersed across the planet; seeds which can be planted, watered, hoed, by ideology. What liberals/leftists/progs aim at with their social engineering is a plantation of people. But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.

    But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.

    I agree Helena

    it is territorial and hegemonic

    but the disease of liberalism, being spread by the liberal media, (much like tossing plague contaminated meat into the village well), it’s creating zombies of the European/Western civilization’s people. Islam doesn’t even need a sword to conquer the lands of Europe or North America/Oceana. Liberalism has simply rendered the people of the West into sniveling cowards and moral cretins, unwilling to defend even their lands or their very children from the barbarism and violence visited upon them by the invaders, both Islamic and otherwise.

    we’re told that migrations simply happen, and why should we care

    just ask the Amerindian how well that worked out for him. (at least they fought back!)

    but liberalism would have us all groveling before our conquerors, and tossing rose pedals before their army’s marching feet. Mustering anger only at those among them who were “racist’ enough to question the wisdom of being replaced in their ancient lands. Demanding that ‘of course white people must all be replaced! They’re racists!!! Let them blow away like so many seeds on the dirt.

    And for the disease of liberalism, I really don’t know if there is even a cure. I keep going back to this story

    http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/06/leftist-norwegian-politician-gets-raped-by-somalian-begs-for-him-not-to-be-deported/

    to remind myself the nature of the liberal, and how it isn’t enough that he be brutally raped, but that he demands it for all his “racist” countrymen as well. I’ll bet he prays for a Norwegian Robert Mugabe every day.

    it seems that the liberal has become the quintessential anti-man. And where a normal man would want to defend his family and tribe and see them prosper, the anti-man/liberal wants to see them humiliated and genocided off the planet.

    I’ll say this.. if I had a deadly enemy, the first thing I’d like to see is for them to have a media controlled by liberals/Jews. I wouldn’t even have to get out of my chair to see them crushed.

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    • Replies: @helena
    Indeed.

    "to remind myself the nature of the liberal"

    it's a disease of affluence; but not of greed. those who achieve high incomes because they think about money every waking moment have no specific link to liberalism other than the benefit to business of cheap employees through migration. but those who have risen through status and the professions and find themselves able to afford all the little luxuries in life, embrace liberalism as a form of unconscious penance.

    "where a normal man would want to defend his family and tribe and see them prosper, the anti-man/liberal wants to see them humiliated and genocided off the planet."

    most liberals, the followers, simply do not understand demographics so they don't see genocide looming. They don't believe genocide is possible because subconsciously, such white liberals are supremacists but they delude themselves that their superiority is based on their liberal morals. leaders of cultural liberalism is a different story.

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  93. @alexander
    What about em, JR ?

    This coup attempt was so feeble, ....so poorly conceived and executed from the start, one is hard pressed NOT to recognize it is a "faux coup" designed by Erdogan to preempt a genuine insurrection (that may well have been in its infancy) and expand his autocratic powers.

    And it worked like a charm.

    Fraud and fakery are the order of the day.

    Like a disease spreading over the earth, fraud has become THE essential tool of the powerful.

    It looks like the once psuedo-venerable Erdogan is taking his seat behind leaders like SISI of Egypt, as a dictator/tool of the elite class of "perpetual" warmongers.

    And it is a sad day for all of us, this is the case.

    Lets not downplay Erdogans reconciliation deal with King Bibi, leading up to this.

    Clearly Erdogan , like Sisi, has kissed the Palestinians goodbye, welcoming Palestine's eventual dissolution into nothingness.

    One more Muslim leader acquiescing to the extermination of the state of Palestine, while aiding and abetting in the dismemberment of Syria, too.

    The Turks have become increasingly aware of this abandonment, and they are none too happy about it, OR their country's role in the Syria fiasco.

    The "faux coup" has worked, and the crackdown ensures Erdogan will continue to function as a tool for the powers that be.

    As an act of preemption designed to prepare the way for an iron handed dictatorship over the Turkish people once they become aware of where they are headed, it was highly successful.


    Like our "9-11", a sad day for humanity, decency and democracy,....... and a great day for Israel.

    So, for a change, a “brutal authoritarian dictator” beat the CIA to the punch. Things are looking up.

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  94. @Erdo
    Turkey is an interesting country where everyone is called Turk, I think this is due to their constitution, but people who are not ethnically Turk object to this and calling everyone Turk has unintended consequences as show in this article e.g. "he has rounded up and arrested 20,000 Turks ". How does he know these people are Turks? I suspect most of them are ethnic Kurds, not Turks.

    Both PKK and Gulen movements are predominantly Kurdish, although some Turks exists in their ranks. Both of these movements are making efforts to infiltrate state to influence government policies to their benefit, and both of them are working towards establishment of a Kurdish state with USA support but by using different means.

    Name one country (including the US) where everyone considers himself a loyal subject to the regime in charge.

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  95. Rurik says:
    @utu
    The false flag theory that Erdogan did it himself and blames it on some guy in Pennsylvania, CIA, America is the only false flag theory that gets traction in MSM in the US and Israel.

    The false flag theory that Erdogan did it himself and blames it on some guy in Pennsylvania, CIA, America is the only false flag theory that gets traction in MSM

    the first time I head of the false flag conspiracy was from none other than James Woolsey on TV right as the coup was happening.

    I remember being struck by the fact that Woolsey (of all people) was actually giving credence to a conspiracy theory. But he wasn’t necessarily suggesting that it was valid or not, just saying that it was what some people were saying. But wow, right during the coup!

    Woolsey, in case some people don’t know, it the absolute, ultimate traitor and treasonous bastard befouling the very air we all breath with the putrescence of his rotten and obscene existence

    the former head of the CIA, there isn’t one outrage against decency or truth that Woolsey hasn’t pugnaciously vomited out of his lying, murderous face

    I’m sure PG would agree

    in the contest for worst human being on the planet, with Dick Cheney and John McCain and Hillary all competing, I give the award to none other than that most loathsome of human abominations against all decency and truth; the peerless ~ James Woolsey

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  96. hbm says:

    Campbell reportedly turned-down a job from the excreable Ashton Carter to run AFRICOM. Is it too conspiratorial and jejune to think that Campbell’s alleged use of a Nigerian bank to send Gulenites in Turkey funds might be significant? Campbell currently works for Michael Chertoff at defense contractor BAE Systems. He recently received praise in a Washington Post piece and, as others have noted, “Erdogan staged the coup against himself” is the only narrative the MSM deals in. All the Neocon flags are up and flying. However awful he is, I’m cautiously leaning towards believing Erdogan’s version of events.

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    • Replies: @Art
    Campbell currently works for Michael Chertoff at defense contractor BAE Systems.

    Chertoff is a big dog in the Jewish deep state in America. His hands are all over the 9/11 cover up.

    100 to 1 that Gulen is a puppet of the Jews.
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  97. Art says:
    @Avery
    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.

    The nomad Turkic invaders from East Asia are still squatting in Cyprus.
    The 40% Turks occupy has been completely ethnically cleansed of its indigenous Cypriot Greeks.
    Before that, nomad Turks murdered and ethnically cleansed most of the indigenous peoples of the lands now occupied by nomad Turks.

    At least some Israelis/Jews have a historic link to Judea.
    What historic link do nomad Turks from Uyguristan have to Asia Minor?
    Since the founding of Israel, Israelis have murdered or killed maybe 25,000 Palestinians max: civilian and combatant.

    Invadonomad Turks have murdered about 4 million indigenous Christians of Asia Minor since 1915, almost all defenseless civilians: Armenians, Assyrians and Pontic Greeks.

    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.

    Wiki:
    International pressure led to a ceasefire, and by then 37% of the island had been taken over by the Turks and 180,000 Greek Cypriots had been evicted from their homes in the north.[110] At the same time, around 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved to the areas under the control of the Turkish Forces and settled in the properties of the displaced Greek Cypriots. There are 1,534 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots missing as a result of the fighting.

    The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.

    How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world’s Jews?

    How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    You posed a question, and I gave a factual answer that Turk did do that within the last 60 years. Here it is again:

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    {The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.}

    Yes I am sure there are lots of stories.
    What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?


    {How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world’s Jews?}

    So, first it was the State of Israel - democracy and all that - and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda, you decided to expand to the world’s Jews?.

    {How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.}

    I don't know: I am not a Jew.
    But if I were, I would not worry too much about a 'stain'.
    If Turkophile people like you do not consider the Genocide of ~4 million Christians by Turks and the invasion of Cyprus by Turks a stain, then what Israel is doing to Palestinians cannot possibly be considered a, quote, 'stain', by the standards that you seem to gauge peoples.

    , @bunga
    Turkey did a great job I support what Turkey did in 1974 and I don't give a hoot what any rabid mad mountain goat says otherwise
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  98. Art says:
    @hbm
    Campbell reportedly turned-down a job from the excreable Ashton Carter to run AFRICOM. Is it too conspiratorial and jejune to think that Campbell's alleged use of a Nigerian bank to send Gulenites in Turkey funds might be significant? Campbell currently works for Michael Chertoff at defense contractor BAE Systems. He recently received praise in a Washington Post piece and, as others have noted, "Erdogan staged the coup against himself" is the only narrative the MSM deals in. All the Neocon flags are up and flying. However awful he is, I'm cautiously leaning towards believing Erdogan's version of events.

    Campbell currently works for Michael Chertoff at defense contractor BAE Systems.

    Chertoff is a big dog in the Jewish deep state in America. His hands are all over the 9/11 cover up.

    100 to 1 that Gulen is a puppet of the Jews.

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  99. @Philip Giraldi
    Seamus - Check out my articles on CIA both here and at The American Conservative. I have been highly critical of them, so much so that I have received a number of threats to cease and desist. CIA certainly is capable of staging a coup but not in Turkey. I lived there, worked there, speak Turkish, still have high level friends there and was a senior officer in the Agency's Turkish station. Even though we worked closely with Turkish intelligence MIT we were followed constantly, our phones were tapped and were treated like enemies. We had no contact with anyone who might have been regarded as political and certainly with no military officers because the Turks would have gotten very, very upset and would retaliate. The very thought of getting engaged enough to set up a coup is laughable. It is my understanding that the current CIA-Turkish relationship is even worse now then it was back in my time.

    Phil, it might not have been the CIA directly, but Sibel Edmonds is claiming that three of the military units involved in the coup were members of NATO’s reaction force, and Turkey itself is claiming that a former US general was involved in the coup and may have been the individual who leaked to NBC the fake news that Erdogan was flying to Germany for asylum. Turkey has asked NBC to apologize for that evident attempt to manipulate events during the coup.

    Then there is the fact that Obama was strangely silent during the coup, with Kerry merely saying the US would work with whoever ended up in power. This was taken by a LOT of people as quiet support for the coup..

    The fire that started near the US air base may also be significant.

    So if the CIA was not the lead on this, perhaps it was the Pentagon working with NATO?

    Of course, all of this could be disinformation spread by Erdogan to enable his distancing himself from the US more to give himself more of a free hand. Erdogan seems to be willing to do a 180 and make nice with Russia, Iran, and even the Assad government. People are saying this means he’s dumping the West and turning East.

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    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Richard. There is a lot of information flying around, most of it difficult to source and much of it coming out of the Erdogan government and its tame media. I continue to believe that this coup was not unknown to the Erdogan government as it was developing. As they would have had to obtain support from major military units the conspirators must have approached senior generals and it is unthinkable that nobody would have reported such an approach up the food chain. Admittedly the plotters knew they were about to get arrested and moved up the timetable, which threw everything off but I am convinced that this was no secret. Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved in this but you will have to take my word for it (or not). I know exactly how CIA works and what its limitations in a place like Turkey are and I also know quite a bit about the Gulen movement and its own liabilities. At this point I expect the Erdogan government will be obtaining hundreds of confessions using torture so the story on what happened and how will get even more muddy.

    I do not believe for a second that the warming relationship of Ankara with Russia had anything to do with this. Turkey and Russia had friendly relations prior to the shootdown of the plane last December so this is nothing new. Likewise the Turkish war with Syria is very unpopular inside Turkey and it was probably inevitable that Erdogan would have to engage is some kind of reset.

    The Pentagon cannot legally undertake covert actions but that doesn't mean a retired general could not get up to mischief. Understand that there are all kinds of conflicting agendas playing out here but I would not necessarily latch on to any of them or seek simple explanations.

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  100. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Alas, this was indeed a Washington inspired coup d’etat gone wrong. When Erdogan gave orders for that Russian SU-24 to be shot down, most people in Turkey – military included – were none to pleased by this, not wishing to have a nuclear armed Russia as an enemy. The second shock came after the British left the EU, after which Erdogan turned towards Russia, and getting a coup d’etat in response. However, this coup was sloppy. Washington took it for granted that it would succeed, like all the previous ones. It did not, as many in the Turkish military were none too happy in having Russia as an enemy and fighting Washingtons wars. Thats why it failed. By now its pretty obvious.

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  101. @Richard Steven Hack
    Phil, it might not have been the CIA directly, but Sibel Edmonds is claiming that three of the military units involved in the coup were members of NATO's reaction force, and Turkey itself is claiming that a former US general was involved in the coup and may have been the individual who leaked to NBC the fake news that Erdogan was flying to Germany for asylum. Turkey has asked NBC to apologize for that evident attempt to manipulate events during the coup.

    Then there is the fact that Obama was strangely silent during the coup, with Kerry merely saying the US would work with whoever ended up in power. This was taken by a LOT of people as quiet support for the coup..

    The fire that started near the US air base may also be significant.

    So if the CIA was not the lead on this, perhaps it was the Pentagon working with NATO?

    Of course, all of this could be disinformation spread by Erdogan to enable his distancing himself from the US more to give himself more of a free hand. Erdogan seems to be willing to do a 180 and make nice with Russia, Iran, and even the Assad government. People are saying this means he's dumping the West and turning East.

    Thanks Richard. There is a lot of information flying around, most of it difficult to source and much of it coming out of the Erdogan government and its tame media. I continue to believe that this coup was not unknown to the Erdogan government as it was developing. As they would have had to obtain support from major military units the conspirators must have approached senior generals and it is unthinkable that nobody would have reported such an approach up the food chain. Admittedly the plotters knew they were about to get arrested and moved up the timetable, which threw everything off but I am convinced that this was no secret. Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved in this but you will have to take my word for it (or not). I know exactly how CIA works and what its limitations in a place like Turkey are and I also know quite a bit about the Gulen movement and its own liabilities. At this point I expect the Erdogan government will be obtaining hundreds of confessions using torture so the story on what happened and how will get even more muddy.

    I do not believe for a second that the warming relationship of Ankara with Russia had anything to do with this. Turkey and Russia had friendly relations prior to the shootdown of the plane last December so this is nothing new. Likewise the Turkish war with Syria is very unpopular inside Turkey and it was probably inevitable that Erdogan would have to engage is some kind of reset.

    The Pentagon cannot legally undertake covert actions but that doesn’t mean a retired general could not get up to mischief. Understand that there are all kinds of conflicting agendas playing out here but I would not necessarily latch on to any of them or seek simple explanations.

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    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Check this out: https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-planning-anti-gulen-army-purge-coup-minister-145249850.html
    , @RobinG
    But Phil, it seems like you are seeking to simplify the explanation by ruling out possible US intelligence or Gulenist involvement, as in, "Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved..." Just as a matter of principle, I'm not a fan of absolutes.

    Here's a thoughtful article by Jonathan Marshall. I'll quote one paragraph, just to annoy Avery...

    "Despite condemnation by other European powers, the ruthless Greek junta held onto power until 1974. It fell only after sponsoring a reckless coup against the government of Cyprus, which prompted Turkey to invade and occupy much of the island."
     
    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/27/coups-inside-nato-a-disturbing-history/
    Coups Inside NATO: A Disturbing History
    , @Krollchem
    My view is that this was a real coup by units of three regiments of Turkey's NATO rapid reaction force and others most closely related to NATO command. As I recall the general in charge was a military attache in Israel and was awarded the US medal of valor.

    Likewise the Reichstag Fire was created by a communist and not by a false flag operation. See "Crisis Actors and a Reichstag Fire" for details:
    http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilon-theory/crisis-actors-reichstag-fire/

    Operations/foundations under Gulen and Soros will be dismantled in Turkey and the CIA project for Central Asia and the Middle East will be delayed. Overall a grand success against the globalists, not unlike the defeat of the Hanseatic League (see Barbara Tuchman's book the Calamitous Fourteenth Century). See also:
    https://www.schillerinstitute.org/fidelio_archive/1998/fidv07n03-1998Fa/fidv07n03-1998Fa_047-a_not_so_distant_mirror_the_less.pdf

    I am sure you will recall Bill Clinton's famous mid-1990s rant that this is a war between tribalism and globalism. As the call to action by the Turkish Mosques showed, a nation state (however flawed) is favored over abstract globalism under a Western elite.
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  102. @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Richard. There is a lot of information flying around, most of it difficult to source and much of it coming out of the Erdogan government and its tame media. I continue to believe that this coup was not unknown to the Erdogan government as it was developing. As they would have had to obtain support from major military units the conspirators must have approached senior generals and it is unthinkable that nobody would have reported such an approach up the food chain. Admittedly the plotters knew they were about to get arrested and moved up the timetable, which threw everything off but I am convinced that this was no secret. Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved in this but you will have to take my word for it (or not). I know exactly how CIA works and what its limitations in a place like Turkey are and I also know quite a bit about the Gulen movement and its own liabilities. At this point I expect the Erdogan government will be obtaining hundreds of confessions using torture so the story on what happened and how will get even more muddy.

    I do not believe for a second that the warming relationship of Ankara with Russia had anything to do with this. Turkey and Russia had friendly relations prior to the shootdown of the plane last December so this is nothing new. Likewise the Turkish war with Syria is very unpopular inside Turkey and it was probably inevitable that Erdogan would have to engage is some kind of reset.

    The Pentagon cannot legally undertake covert actions but that doesn't mean a retired general could not get up to mischief. Understand that there are all kinds of conflicting agendas playing out here but I would not necessarily latch on to any of them or seek simple explanations.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Phil,

    Looks like the purge is even wider than just Turkey:
    http://www.dw.com/en/secular-pakistanis-resist-turkeys-authoritarian-demands/a-19427773

    We'll see how this works out - I've read both reports that Pakistan is cooperating and that it is resisting.

    Peace.
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  103. Avery says:
    @Art

    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.
     

    Wiki:
    International pressure led to a ceasefire, and by then 37% of the island had been taken over by the Turks and 180,000 Greek Cypriots had been evicted from their homes in the north.[110] At the same time, around 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved to the areas under the control of the Turkish Forces and settled in the properties of the displaced Greek Cypriots. There are 1,534 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots missing as a result of the fighting.

    The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.

    How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world's Jews?

    How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.

    You posed a question, and I gave a factual answer that Turk did do that within the last 60 years. Here it is again:

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    {The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.}

    Yes I am sure there are lots of stories.
    What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?


    {How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world’s Jews?}

    So, first it was the State of Israel – democracy and all that – and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda, you decided to expand to the world’s Jews?.

    {How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.}

    I don’t know: I am not a Jew.
    But if I were, I would not worry too much about a ‘stain’.
    If Turkophile people like you do not consider the Genocide of ~4 million Christians by Turks and the invasion of Cyprus by Turks a stain, then what Israel is doing to Palestinians cannot possibly be considered a, quote, ‘stain’, by the standards that you seem to gauge peoples.

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    • Replies: @Art
    and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda

    Your egotistical claims aside - The Stain of Palestine will follow the Jews for stealing Palestine.

    Every day it grows to the detriment of the whole tribe.

    p.s. They do not have the intellectual makeup to see their future – too bad for them.
    , @L.K
    Avery, the sad armenian LIAR repeats his lies like a bloody broken record: "What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?"

    Boy, you lie with such obstinacy and ease, you would make Pinocchio blush...

    As you know perfectly well, Turks from Turkey are NOT from 'Uyguristan', rather they are largely turkified Anatolians, i.e. , the indigenous population of the area.

    From your beloved wikipedia, Pinocchio, er, avery:

    "An early form of Turkification occurred in the time of the Seljuk Empire among the indigenous peoples of Anatolia, involving religious conversion, cultural and linguistic assimilation, and interethnic relationships, reflected in the indigenous Anatolian background of most modern Turkish people."

     

    The most current Genetics Studies, as you know full well, demonstrate that Central Asian contribution in the Turkish people from Turkey is relatively SMALL.

    According to a 2012 study on ethnic Turkish people, "Turkish population has a close genetic similarity to Middle Eastern and European populations and some degree of similarity to South Asian and Central Asian populations."

     

    Another study from 2014:

    "The study led by Can Alkan of University of Washington, Seattle has been published in the journal BMC genomics. The authors of the study show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations."

     

    But the following is really funny, Avery:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia's bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Buhahahahahahhaha
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  104. Talha says:
    @Philip Giraldi
    Check this out: https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-planning-anti-gulen-army-purge-coup-minister-145249850.html

    Hey Phil,

    Looks like the purge is even wider than just Turkey:

    http://www.dw.com/en/secular-pakistanis-resist-turkeys-authoritarian-demands/a-19427773

    We’ll see how this works out – I’ve read both reports that Pakistan is cooperating and that it is resisting.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @bunga
    "He expected the West to turn a blind eye to grave human rights violations in Pakistan, as he believed he was doing a favor to the US by fighting its proxy war in Afghanistan." http://www.dw.com/en/secular-pakistanis-resist-turkeys-authoritarian-demands/a-19427773

    1 How could one fight a war against foreigner without either nationalism or religion or some kind of collective identity "?
    Afghanistan has one identity- a mixture of clan and religion .

    2 West did not turn a blind eye They kept it wide open and instructed Pakistan what and how to do it West has been doing it since 1900


    "Ibn Saud had entered the war early in January 1915 on the side of the British, but was quickly defeated ----Actually, the Sharif let it be known that he will never sell out Palestine to the Empire’s Balfour Declaration; he will never acquiescence to the establishment of Zionism in Palestine or accept the new random borders drawn across Arabia by British and French imperialists. For their part the British began referring to him as an ‘obstructionist’, a ‘nuisance’ and of having a ‘recalcitrant’ attitude.

    The British let it be known to the Sharif that they were prepared to take drastic measures to bring about his approval of the new reality regardless of the service that he had rendered them during the War---When financial bribery failed to persuade the Sharif, Lawrence threatened him with an Ibn Saud takeover.

    In between negotiating with the Sharif, Lawrence made the time to visit other leaders in the Arabian peninsula and informed them that they if they don’t tow the British line and avoid entering into an alliance with the Sharif, the Empire will unleash Ibn Saud and his Wahhabis who after all is at Britain’s ‘beck and call’.[6]

    Churchill informed Abdullah that he should persuade “his father to accept the Palestine mandate and sign a treaty to such effect,” if not “the British would unleash Ibn Saud against Hijaz.”[7] In the meantime the British were planning to unleash Ibn Saud on the ruler of Ha’il, Ibn Rashid. -"


    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/01/zionism-kingdom-arabia/#sthash.hOOfU0Lg.dpuf

    Unleash ,they did . They would have found another Hekymater and another Zia if Zia did not do what he was told to do. Keep in mind that interference against Afghanistan started not in early 1979 but in 1973

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  105. helena says:
    @Rurik

    But we are animals, territorial animals. The advance of islamic civilisation is obviously territorial; as was the advance of european civilisation in its day.
     
    I agree Helena

    it is territorial and hegemonic

    but the disease of liberalism, being spread by the liberal media, (much like tossing plague contaminated meat into the village well), it's creating zombies of the European/Western civilization's people. Islam doesn't even need a sword to conquer the lands of Europe or North America/Oceana. Liberalism has simply rendered the people of the West into sniveling cowards and moral cretins, unwilling to defend even their lands or their very children from the barbarism and violence visited upon them by the invaders, both Islamic and otherwise.

    we're told that migrations simply happen, and why should we care

    just ask the Amerindian how well that worked out for him. (at least they fought back!)

    but liberalism would have us all groveling before our conquerors, and tossing rose pedals before their army's marching feet. Mustering anger only at those among them who were "racist' enough to question the wisdom of being replaced in their ancient lands. Demanding that 'of course white people must all be replaced! They're racists!!! Let them blow away like so many seeds on the dirt.

    And for the disease of liberalism, I really don't know if there is even a cure. I keep going back to this story

    http://dailycaller.com/2016/04/06/leftist-norwegian-politician-gets-raped-by-somalian-begs-for-him-not-to-be-deported/

    to remind myself the nature of the liberal, and how it isn't enough that he be brutally raped, but that he demands it for all his "racist" countrymen as well. I'll bet he prays for a Norwegian Robert Mugabe every day.

    it seems that the liberal has become the quintessential anti-man. And where a normal man would want to defend his family and tribe and see them prosper, the anti-man/liberal wants to see them humiliated and genocided off the planet.

    I'll say this.. if I had a deadly enemy, the first thing I'd like to see is for them to have a media controlled by liberals/Jews. I wouldn't even have to get out of my chair to see them crushed.

    Indeed.

    “to remind myself the nature of the liberal”

    it’s a disease of affluence; but not of greed. those who achieve high incomes because they think about money every waking moment have no specific link to liberalism other than the benefit to business of cheap employees through migration. but those who have risen through status and the professions and find themselves able to afford all the little luxuries in life, embrace liberalism as a form of unconscious penance.

    “where a normal man would want to defend his family and tribe and see them prosper, the anti-man/liberal wants to see them humiliated and genocided off the planet.”

    most liberals, the followers, simply do not understand demographics so they don’t see genocide looming. They don’t believe genocide is possible because subconsciously, such white liberals are supremacists but they delude themselves that their superiority is based on their liberal morals. leaders of cultural liberalism is a different story.

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  106. bunga says:
    @RobinG

    General John F. Campbell, 59, was "one of the top figures who organized and managed the soldiers behind the failed coup attempt in Turkey," ....
    According to Yeni Safak, Campbell "also managed more than $2 billion in transactions via UBA Bank in Nigeria by using CIA links to distribute among the pro-coup military personnel in Turkey."
     
    https://www.rt.com/news/353126-campbell-nato-coup-turkey/

    Nothing is impossible I think impossibility is a construct thrust upon us banning us to think outside the box.

    It was I think in 2007 when the planes with missile and nuclear bomb went missing for hours and after the exposures people started dying quickly in most mysterious circumstances
    The entire episode was some kind of inattention per the Bush Cheney gang

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  107. bunga says:
    @Talha
    Hey Phil,

    Looks like the purge is even wider than just Turkey:
    http://www.dw.com/en/secular-pakistanis-resist-turkeys-authoritarian-demands/a-19427773

    We'll see how this works out - I've read both reports that Pakistan is cooperating and that it is resisting.

    Peace.

    “He expected the West to turn a blind eye to grave human rights violations in Pakistan, as he believed he was doing a favor to the US by fighting its proxy war in Afghanistan.” http://www.dw.com/en/secular-pakistanis-resist-turkeys-authoritarian-demands/a-19427773

    1 How could one fight a war against foreigner without either nationalism or religion or some kind of collective identity “?
    Afghanistan has one identity- a mixture of clan and religion .

    2 West did not turn a blind eye They kept it wide open and instructed Pakistan what and how to do it West has been doing it since 1900

    “Ibn Saud had entered the war early in January 1915 on the side of the British, but was quickly defeated —-Actually, the Sharif let it be known that he will never sell out Palestine to the Empire’s Balfour Declaration; he will never acquiescence to the establishment of Zionism in Palestine or accept the new random borders drawn across Arabia by British and French imperialists. For their part the British began referring to him as an ‘obstructionist’, a ‘nuisance’ and of having a ‘recalcitrant’ attitude.

    The British let it be known to the Sharif that they were prepared to take drastic measures to bring about his approval of the new reality regardless of the service that he had rendered them during the War—When financial bribery failed to persuade the Sharif, Lawrence threatened him with an Ibn Saud takeover.

    In between negotiating with the Sharif, Lawrence made the time to visit other leaders in the Arabian peninsula and informed them that they if they don’t tow the British line and avoid entering into an alliance with the Sharif, the Empire will unleash Ibn Saud and his Wahhabis who after all is at Britain’s ‘beck and call’.[6]

    Churchill informed Abdullah that he should persuade “his father to accept the Palestine mandate and sign a treaty to such effect,” if not “the British would unleash Ibn Saud against Hijaz.”[7] In the meantime the British were planning to unleash Ibn Saud on the ruler of Ha’il, Ibn Rashid. -”

    - See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2016/01/zionism-kingdom-arabia/#sthash.hOOfU0Lg.dpuf

    Unleash ,they did . They would have found another Hekymater and another Zia if Zia did not do what he was told to do. Keep in mind that interference against Afghanistan started not in early 1979 but in 1973

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  108. Bianca says:

    Neoconese comes in so many hues and different colors of smoke. It is not our business to determine the type of government Turkey will have. Enough already with “dictators’ and “tyrants” and all the “Hitlers” we imagine we see anytime a policy of any country is not to our liking. Turkey’s public opinions have not altered much in a decade. Lately, they have been even more anti-American, as the history of “secular” generals coups inspired by NATO are still vivid in their conscience. And the surveys have been conducted by American pollsters. Trump has it right — we are not to install “democracy” anywhere, as those countries have no experience with it, and did not ask us to impose it on them. Thus, preventing a coup by a minority that would impose its will on the vast majority of population — is a good thing. Pushing Turkey to get boots on the ground in Syria, and helping “the rebels’ caused the split inside the ruling party, and the pro-intervention, neo-ottomans lead by Davutoglu, lost. The next day, the new prime minister announced changes of policy towards Russia, Syria and Egypt. Clearly, letting Turkey disengage itself from Syrian mess — was the cause for a hastily put together coup. And it may have succeeded had it not been for the entire government and the deputies, along with the heads of administration — quite accidentally found themselves in the Parliament building, Friday evening when people are normally at home with their families before starting another work week. The government was well defended and the building was never in serious danger of falling to the coup forces. The rest is history.

    But can we stop with neocon laden adjectives, and stop imagining we run the world. As for general Campbell, is he the one that was linked to the Tampa socialite of interesting background, the one who pointed out the love interest of General Petraeus? Somehow, the thousands of e-mails he shared with her, were quickly forgotten.

    The best advice one can give to Hillary, is to never use e-mail. Let somebody else do it for her.

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  109. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    Well what the hell do anybody expect from Turd worlders, well, didn’t old Bernard Shaw say that: the inclusion of the …”savage to the civilized world would be the Savagization of the Civilized world, “] not as was the intent

    And I say that, because everywhere they want to expand NATO, and expand the EU, and really get down to it, it is taking everybody in the civilized west down to a lower level, or as we used to say LCD, I’m not math wizard, but when I took a couple of courses where math was needed, even I had to learn it… and gladly did,

    oh, that stands for: lowest common denominator… brainiac youngsters.

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  110. Cato says:
    @Simon in London
    I agree, but I think the Gulenists do hope to appeal to the secularist remnants that share their anti-Erdoganism.

    Also I've no idea why CIA involvement is implausible - they do this often enough! Maybe Giraldi missed Erdogan's overtures to Russia immediately prior to the coup...

    I thought about the Russia thing. But it was not only rapprochement with Russia, it was also rapprochement with Israel. Obviously a very deep game–the kind every player in the region prides themselves on playing. Inshallah Trump gets us out of there!

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  111. Art says:
    @Avery
    You posed a question, and I gave a factual answer that Turk did do that within the last 60 years. Here it is again:

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    {The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.}

    Yes I am sure there are lots of stories.
    What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?


    {How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world’s Jews?}

    So, first it was the State of Israel - democracy and all that - and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda, you decided to expand to the world’s Jews?.

    {How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.}

    I don't know: I am not a Jew.
    But if I were, I would not worry too much about a 'stain'.
    If Turkophile people like you do not consider the Genocide of ~4 million Christians by Turks and the invasion of Cyprus by Turks a stain, then what Israel is doing to Palestinians cannot possibly be considered a, quote, 'stain', by the standards that you seem to gauge peoples.

    and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda

    Your egotistical claims aside – The Stain of Palestine will follow the Jews for stealing Palestine.

    Every day it grows to the detriment of the whole tribe.

    p.s. They do not have the intellectual makeup to see their future – too bad for them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Your egotistical claims aside.....}

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    Yep, me catching you in a boldface lie sure is an egotistical claim.

    p.s. how old are you son?
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  112. Jason Liu says:

    I still don’t see what the big deal is. Erdogan, no matter his flaws, mostly acts in the interests of his own identity groups: Turks and Muslims. Gotta purge the traitors every once in a while, or they start to disrupt the body politic. Screw democracy and liberal values.

    If some European conservative leaders were to do this in their country, you probably wouldn’t have so many social problems.

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  113. Avery says:
    @Art
    and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda

    Your egotistical claims aside - The Stain of Palestine will follow the Jews for stealing Palestine.

    Every day it grows to the detriment of the whole tribe.

    p.s. They do not have the intellectual makeup to see their future – too bad for them.

    {Your egotistical claims aside…..}

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    Yep, me catching you in a boldface lie sure is an egotistical claim.

    p.s. how old are you son?

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  114. RobinG says:
    @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Richard. There is a lot of information flying around, most of it difficult to source and much of it coming out of the Erdogan government and its tame media. I continue to believe that this coup was not unknown to the Erdogan government as it was developing. As they would have had to obtain support from major military units the conspirators must have approached senior generals and it is unthinkable that nobody would have reported such an approach up the food chain. Admittedly the plotters knew they were about to get arrested and moved up the timetable, which threw everything off but I am convinced that this was no secret. Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved in this but you will have to take my word for it (or not). I know exactly how CIA works and what its limitations in a place like Turkey are and I also know quite a bit about the Gulen movement and its own liabilities. At this point I expect the Erdogan government will be obtaining hundreds of confessions using torture so the story on what happened and how will get even more muddy.

    I do not believe for a second that the warming relationship of Ankara with Russia had anything to do with this. Turkey and Russia had friendly relations prior to the shootdown of the plane last December so this is nothing new. Likewise the Turkish war with Syria is very unpopular inside Turkey and it was probably inevitable that Erdogan would have to engage is some kind of reset.

    The Pentagon cannot legally undertake covert actions but that doesn't mean a retired general could not get up to mischief. Understand that there are all kinds of conflicting agendas playing out here but I would not necessarily latch on to any of them or seek simple explanations.

    But Phil, it seems like you are seeking to simplify the explanation by ruling out possible US intelligence or Gulenist involvement, as in, “Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved…” Just as a matter of principle, I’m not a fan of absolutes.

    Here’s a thoughtful article by Jonathan Marshall. I’ll quote one paragraph, just to annoy Avery…

    “Despite condemnation by other European powers, the ruthless Greek junta held onto power until 1974. It fell only after sponsoring a reckless coup against the government of Cyprus, which prompted Turkey to invade and occupy much of the island.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2016/07/27/coups-inside-nato-a-disturbing-history/

    Coups Inside NATO: A Disturbing History

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  115. L.K says:
    @Avery
    You posed a question, and I gave a factual answer that Turk did do that within the last 60 years. Here it is again:

    [Art: {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}]
    [Avery: Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.]

    {The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.}

    Yes I am sure there are lots of stories.
    What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?


    {How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world’s Jews?}

    So, first it was the State of Israel - democracy and all that - and now that I have debunked your Turkophile propaganda, you decided to expand to the world’s Jews?.

    {How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.}

    I don't know: I am not a Jew.
    But if I were, I would not worry too much about a 'stain'.
    If Turkophile people like you do not consider the Genocide of ~4 million Christians by Turks and the invasion of Cyprus by Turks a stain, then what Israel is doing to Palestinians cannot possibly be considered a, quote, 'stain', by the standards that you seem to gauge peoples.

    Avery, the sad armenian LIAR repeats his lies like a bloody broken record: “What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?”

    Boy, you lie with such obstinacy and ease, you would make Pinocchio blush…

    As you know perfectly well, Turks from Turkey are NOT from ‘Uyguristan’, rather they are largely turkified Anatolians, i.e. , the indigenous population of the area.

    From your beloved wikipedia, Pinocchio, er, avery:

    “An early form of Turkification occurred in the time of the Seljuk Empire among the indigenous peoples of Anatolia, involving religious conversion, cultural and linguistic assimilation, and interethnic relationships, reflected in the indigenous Anatolian background of most modern Turkish people.”

    The most current Genetics Studies, as you know full well, demonstrate that Central Asian contribution in the Turkish people from Turkey is relatively SMALL.

    According to a 2012 study on ethnic Turkish people, “Turkish population has a close genetic similarity to Middle Eastern and European populations and some degree of similarity to South Asian and Central Asian populations.”

    Another study from 2014:

    “The study led by Can Alkan of University of Washington, Seattle has been published in the journal BMC genomics. The authors of the study show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations.”

    But the following is really funny, Avery:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Buhahahahahahhaha

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey L.K.,

    Wow! It also looks like that is what UR's Razib Khan concluded:
    "But, these data do seem to suggest on face value that Armenians are the population which Anatolian Turks have the most genetic affinity with."
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.V5pTpPkrLRY

    Funny planet, eh?

    Peace.
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  116. L.K says:

    @avery

    Btw, unlike the Palestinians, who had their ancestral homelands recently taken from them by force, who were largely ethnically cleansed from it or are living under a brutal occupation, Armenians at least have a country;

    It is called Armenia.

    Since you are such a proud Armenian, why are you squatting in the zio USA, agitating against Turks with your petty old World hatred??
    Why don’t you piss off to Armenia, go live in your country?

    Were I an American, I would not like to have foreign agitators like you in my country.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {Were I an American,..}


    You an American?
    Surely you jest.
    Unless you have Native American ancestry, you are an immigrant just like me and just like everybody else, beginning with the Mayflower.
    And I highly doubt you have any Native American ancestry, because you are a neo-Nazi Schweinhund.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!
    , @Avery
    {Since you are such a proud Armenian, why are you squatting in the zio USA, agitating against Turks with your petty old World hatred??
    Why don’t you piss off to Armenia, go live in your country?}

    No only are you a neo-Nazi Schweinhund, but you are a certifiable idiot.
    If I am, quote, "squatting", in Zio-USA, so are you, you neo-Nazi Schweinhund. Must be Hell for you neo-Nazi Schweinhund to live in Zio-USA, isn't it?

    And since you are such a proud neo-Nazi Schweinhund, why don't you piss off to your homeland Deutschland, Deutschland über alles. There you can meet many Turks and marry one. You and your significant other can do the namaz under a swastika, outside your nomad yurt.

    Neo-Nazi Schweinhund.
    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

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  117. Talha says:
    @L.K
    Avery, the sad armenian LIAR repeats his lies like a bloody broken record: "What were the Turks from Uyguristan (near China) doing in Cyprus in the middle of Mediterranean sea in the first place?"

    Boy, you lie with such obstinacy and ease, you would make Pinocchio blush...

    As you know perfectly well, Turks from Turkey are NOT from 'Uyguristan', rather they are largely turkified Anatolians, i.e. , the indigenous population of the area.

    From your beloved wikipedia, Pinocchio, er, avery:

    "An early form of Turkification occurred in the time of the Seljuk Empire among the indigenous peoples of Anatolia, involving religious conversion, cultural and linguistic assimilation, and interethnic relationships, reflected in the indigenous Anatolian background of most modern Turkish people."

     

    The most current Genetics Studies, as you know full well, demonstrate that Central Asian contribution in the Turkish people from Turkey is relatively SMALL.

    According to a 2012 study on ethnic Turkish people, "Turkish population has a close genetic similarity to Middle Eastern and European populations and some degree of similarity to South Asian and Central Asian populations."

     

    Another study from 2014:

    "The study led by Can Alkan of University of Washington, Seattle has been published in the journal BMC genomics. The authors of the study show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations."

     

    But the following is really funny, Avery:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia's bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Buhahahahahahhaha

    Hey L.K.,

    Wow! It also looks like that is what UR’s Razib Khan concluded:
    “But, these data do seem to suggest on face value that Armenians are the population which Anatolian Turks have the most genetic affinity with.”

    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.V5pTpPkrLRY

    Funny planet, eh?

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    Hey Talha:

    I am no geneticist, but have some scientific background.
    I’ve read what Razib has written, long before UNZ.com.
    It is one man’s opinion.
    DNA is not infallible, and conclusions are highly dependent on where the sample was collected and from how many.
    There is no doubt nomad Turks have picked up DNA from indigenous populations of Asia Minor, including Armenians. It could not be otherwise, after centuries of stealing others' children.

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
    Simple proof that he and his ilk propagandizing for Uyguroğlar invadonomad Turks are wrong is this: the Armenian Genocide.
    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?
    , @Avery
    Hey Talha: more proof that Turks are Armenians.

    [Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city. Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China. "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.] (October 2010)


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/08/06/is-armenian-an-insult-turkeys-prime-minister-seems-to-think-so/
    { In a television interview Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister and presidential hopeful Recep Tayyip Erdogan complained that people had questioned his family background. "I was called a Georgian. I apologize for this, but they even said [something] worse: They called me an Armenian," Erdogan said during an interview with NTV, according to a translation from Today's Zaman newspaper. "But I'm a Turk."}

    Yes, Tayyip. You are an Uyguroğlu mongrel nomad.
    It would be an insult to the noble Armenian ethnos for a savage nomad like you to be thought of as Armenian.

    http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gul-files-suit-against-aritman-10624092
    {ANKARA - President Abdullah Gül filed a case for compensation yesterday against a main opposition deputy who made controversial claims about his alleged Armenian roots.}

    Yes: absolutely, Turks are Armenians.
    Razib said so
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  118. bunga says:
    @Art

    {Did the Turks do that in the last 60 years?}

    Turks invaded and occupied 40% of sovereign Republic of Cyprus 42 years ago.
     

    Wiki:
    International pressure led to a ceasefire, and by then 37% of the island had been taken over by the Turks and 180,000 Greek Cypriots had been evicted from their homes in the north.[110] At the same time, around 50,000 Turkish Cypriots moved to the areas under the control of the Turkish Forces and settled in the properties of the displaced Greek Cypriots. There are 1,534 Greek Cypriots and 502 Turkish Cypriots missing as a result of the fighting.

    The story is that the Greek Cypriots were going to merge all of Cyprus with Greece and the Turks stopped it.

    How does this compare to all the problems put on the ME by the world's Jews?

    How does this compare to the Stain of Palestine on the Jew people.

    Turkey did a great job I support what Turkey did in 1974 and I don’t give a hoot what any rabid mad mountain goat says otherwise

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  119. edNels [AKA "geoshmoe"] says:

    Well I am tired of this world of disembling lying BS, I had to give some credit to Jonathan Ravulsky on his post where he made some points abou how to unravel some of the BS.

    But to tell the truth, I don’t like Turkey the country, arid nowhere lost continent… overloaded with ignorant hostile poorly defined racial basis… and an ugly mfr with the eyes of a snake!

    There was a wonderful documentary about the disastrious ww1 war where thousands of soldiers died, the stupid leaders sent them to their deaths with no good sense, they had to clime the mountains up from the see, on the Bosporus, They got massacred. Mostly Austrailians and New Zealanders.

    I think they pulled that documentary off the web, to much good info,

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  120. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @utu
    Is Giraldi looking for a job with some neocon think tank or media outfit?

    ya think ,
    i mean he didnt even blame jews in this one. wtf ???

    Read More
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  121. Avery says:
    @Talha
    Hey L.K.,

    Wow! It also looks like that is what UR's Razib Khan concluded:
    "But, these data do seem to suggest on face value that Armenians are the population which Anatolian Turks have the most genetic affinity with."
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.V5pTpPkrLRY

    Funny planet, eh?

    Peace.

    Hey Talha:

    I am no geneticist, but have some scientific background.
    I’ve read what Razib has written, long before UNZ.com.
    It is one man’s opinion.
    DNA is not infallible, and conclusions are highly dependent on where the sample was collected and from how many.
    There is no doubt nomad Turks have picked up DNA from indigenous populations of Asia Minor, including Armenians. It could not be otherwise, after centuries of stealing others’ children.

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
    Simple proof that he and his ilk propagandizing for Uyguroğlar invadonomad Turks are wrong is this: the Armenian Genocide.
    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Sure DNA is not infallible, but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well...

    Razib is (by his own admission) an atheist/materialist who is not quite sure that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an actual historic figure; not very solid Islamist material.

    As far as ethnic against similar ethnic, I know of the following:
    Hutus and Tutsis
    "Genetic studies suggest that the Hutu and Tutsi of today are hardly distinguishable (see Leon Rosenberg and Diane Rosenberg, Human Genes and Genomes, p 7). Yet the question as to whether a difference still exists or not remains controversial. As Jon Entine writes in Abraham’s Children, despite the enthusiasm that comes with investigating our genetic heritage there is always the risk of granting too much explanatory power to genetics. Ethnic identity involves more than genetics—namely religion, culture and social and political associations."
    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/08/05/are-genetic-differences-at-the-root-of-the-tutsi-hutu-rwandan-conflict/

    Balkans War (Serbians and Bosnians and Croats are very genetically similar - each side ethnically cleansed the other from its territory)

    Pakistan-India Partition (massive communal violence and territorial ethnic cleansing between Hindu/Muslim/Sikh who were genetically very similar)

    Peace.

    , @Rurik

    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?
     
    um

    civil war?

    WWs one and two?

    to name a few fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity
    , @Immigrant from former USSR
    You wrote:

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
     
    I strongly disagree. I have my own little issues with Mr. Khan,
    but he is not Islamist. I also started to read Razib Khan at different sites well before creation of
    "Unz Review", and none of his posts gives any hint that he is an Islamist.
    Yes, he is quite knowledgeable of Islam. He is of Bengali ancestry. So what ?
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  122. Avery says:
    @L.K
    @avery

    Btw, unlike the Palestinians, who had their ancestral homelands recently taken from them by force, who were largely ethnically cleansed from it or are living under a brutal occupation, Armenians at least have a country;

    It is called Armenia.

    Since you are such a proud Armenian, why are you squatting in the zio USA, agitating against Turks with your petty old World hatred??
    Why don't you piss off to Armenia, go live in your country?

    Were I an American, I would not like to have foreign agitators like you in my country.

    {Were I an American,..}

    You an American?
    Surely you jest.
    Unless you have Native American ancestry, you are an immigrant just like me and just like everybody else, beginning with the Mayflower.
    And I highly doubt you have any Native American ancestry, because you are a neo-Nazi Schweinhund.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    No, I'm not an American nor do I live in Zamerica.
    That was pretty clear from what I wrote( can't you read boy?) but, but, that was NOT the point I was making at all; though you are not a very sharp pencil - plus you are a proven liar - I'm sure you got the point.

    Now look, Avery, the Turks are your cousins, live with it! Again:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Now go bitch with the Armenian scientists! :-)
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  123. Talha says:
    @Avery
    Hey Talha:

    I am no geneticist, but have some scientific background.
    I’ve read what Razib has written, long before UNZ.com.
    It is one man’s opinion.
    DNA is not infallible, and conclusions are highly dependent on where the sample was collected and from how many.
    There is no doubt nomad Turks have picked up DNA from indigenous populations of Asia Minor, including Armenians. It could not be otherwise, after centuries of stealing others' children.

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
    Simple proof that he and his ilk propagandizing for Uyguroğlar invadonomad Turks are wrong is this: the Armenian Genocide.
    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?

    Hey Avery,

    Sure DNA is not infallible, but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well…

    Razib is (by his own admission) an atheist/materialist who is not quite sure that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an actual historic figure; not very solid Islamist material.

    As far as ethnic against similar ethnic, I know of the following:
    Hutus and Tutsis
    “Genetic studies suggest that the Hutu and Tutsi of today are hardly distinguishable (see Leon Rosenberg and Diane Rosenberg, Human Genes and Genomes, p 7). Yet the question as to whether a difference still exists or not remains controversial. As Jon Entine writes in Abraham’s Children, despite the enthusiasm that comes with investigating our genetic heritage there is always the risk of granting too much explanatory power to genetics. Ethnic identity involves more than genetics—namely religion, culture and social and political associations.

    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/08/05/are-genetic-differences-at-the-root-of-the-tutsi-hutu-rwandan-conflict/

    Balkans War (Serbians and Bosnians and Croats are very genetically similar – each side ethnically cleansed the other from its territory)

    Pakistan-India Partition (massive communal violence and territorial ethnic cleansing between Hindu/Muslim/Sikh who were genetically very similar)

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well…}

    Multiple sources using the same flawed data set: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
    One can manipulate data to produce any result to fit an agenda.
    I have been in the field: I know how it's done.
    There is a huge, well financed industry tasked with "proving" that nomad Turks are indigenous to Asia Minor. Part of the larger agenda to deny the AG and legitimize the theft of other peoples's lands and property.

    Hutus and Tutsi have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Balkan peoples have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Bosniacs and Albanians - ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans - were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
    But they are indigenous peoples.

    Nomad Turks from East and Central Asia invaded Asia Minor and Armenian Highlands around 1000 A.D.
    You can Razib Khan that till the cows come home.
    Will make no difference.
    Facts are facts.
    Turks are invadonomads in Asia Minor.
    Indigenous Armenians are Armenians and nomad Turks are nomad Turks.

    Good try, but no cigar.
    Take care.
    , @5371
    Your other examples were good, but Tutsis are about 15 cm taller than Hutus.
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  124. Krollchem says:
    @Philip Giraldi
    Thanks Richard. There is a lot of information flying around, most of it difficult to source and much of it coming out of the Erdogan government and its tame media. I continue to believe that this coup was not unknown to the Erdogan government as it was developing. As they would have had to obtain support from major military units the conspirators must have approached senior generals and it is unthinkable that nobody would have reported such an approach up the food chain. Admittedly the plotters knew they were about to get arrested and moved up the timetable, which threw everything off but I am convinced that this was no secret. Nor do I believe that either Gulen or CIA was involved in this but you will have to take my word for it (or not). I know exactly how CIA works and what its limitations in a place like Turkey are and I also know quite a bit about the Gulen movement and its own liabilities. At this point I expect the Erdogan government will be obtaining hundreds of confessions using torture so the story on what happened and how will get even more muddy.

    I do not believe for a second that the warming relationship of Ankara with Russia had anything to do with this. Turkey and Russia had friendly relations prior to the shootdown of the plane last December so this is nothing new. Likewise the Turkish war with Syria is very unpopular inside Turkey and it was probably inevitable that Erdogan would have to engage is some kind of reset.

    The Pentagon cannot legally undertake covert actions but that doesn't mean a retired general could not get up to mischief. Understand that there are all kinds of conflicting agendas playing out here but I would not necessarily latch on to any of them or seek simple explanations.

    My view is that this was a real coup by units of three regiments of Turkey’s NATO rapid reaction force and others most closely related to NATO command. As I recall the general in charge was a military attache in Israel and was awarded the US medal of valor.

    Likewise the Reichstag Fire was created by a communist and not by a false flag operation. See “Crisis Actors and a Reichstag Fire” for details:

    http://www.salientpartners.com/epsilon-theory/crisis-actors-reichstag-fire/

    Operations/foundations under Gulen and Soros will be dismantled in Turkey and the CIA project for Central Asia and the Middle East will be delayed. Overall a grand success against the globalists, not unlike the defeat of the Hanseatic League (see Barbara Tuchman’s book the Calamitous Fourteenth Century). See also:

    https://www.schillerinstitute.org/fidelio_archive/1998/fidv07n03-1998Fa/fidv07n03-1998Fa_047-a_not_so_distant_mirror_the_less.pdf

    I am sure you will recall Bill Clinton’s famous mid-1990s rant that this is a war between tribalism and globalism. As the call to action by the Turkish Mosques showed, a nation state (however flawed) is favored over abstract globalism under a Western elite.

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  125. Avery says:
    @Talha
    Hey L.K.,

    Wow! It also looks like that is what UR's Razib Khan concluded:
    "But, these data do seem to suggest on face value that Armenians are the population which Anatolian Turks have the most genetic affinity with."
    http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2010/12/are-turks-acculturated-armenians/#.V5pTpPkrLRY

    Funny planet, eh?

    Peace.

    Hey Talha: more proof that Turks are Armenians.

    [Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city. Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China. "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.] (October 2010)

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/08/06/is-armenian-an-insult-turkeys-prime-minister-seems-to-think-so/

    { In a television interview Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister and presidential hopeful Recep Tayyip Erdogan complained that people had questioned his family background. “I was called a Georgian. I apologize for this, but they even said [something] worse: They called me an Armenian,” Erdogan said during an interview with NTV, according to a translation from Today’s Zaman newspaper. “But I’m a Turk.”}

    Yes, Tayyip. You are an Uyguroğlu mongrel nomad.
    It would be an insult to the noble Armenian ethnos for a savage nomad like you to be thought of as Armenian.

    http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gul-files-suit-against-aritman-10624092

    {ANKARA – President Abdullah Gül filed a case for compensation yesterday against a main opposition deputy who made controversial claims about his alleged Armenian roots.}

    Yes: absolutely, Turks are Armenians.
    Razib said so

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    That is certainly interesting and shows the results of the ultra-ethnic nationalism that Atatürk ushered in. Reminds me a little if what I've read about the internally-conflicted Bobby Fischer.

    However, you are talking politics and I am talking science; so there's likely little grounds for agreement.

    May God grant us contentment and gratitude for the wombs He bore us in.

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  126. Talha says:
    @Avery
    Hey Talha: more proof that Turks are Armenians.

    [Ahmet Davutoglu, who has become the first Turkish foreign minister ever to visit Uighur Autonomous Region in China, toured historical sites in Kashgar city. Davutoglu and an accompanying Turkish delegation arrived early Thursday in Kashgar in the extreme west of China and the extreme southwest of Uighur region. Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China. "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.] (October 2010)


    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/08/06/is-armenian-an-insult-turkeys-prime-minister-seems-to-think-so/
    { In a television interview Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister and presidential hopeful Recep Tayyip Erdogan complained that people had questioned his family background. "I was called a Georgian. I apologize for this, but they even said [something] worse: They called me an Armenian," Erdogan said during an interview with NTV, according to a translation from Today's Zaman newspaper. "But I'm a Turk."}

    Yes, Tayyip. You are an Uyguroğlu mongrel nomad.
    It would be an insult to the noble Armenian ethnos for a savage nomad like you to be thought of as Armenian.

    http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/gul-files-suit-against-aritman-10624092
    {ANKARA - President Abdullah Gül filed a case for compensation yesterday against a main opposition deputy who made controversial claims about his alleged Armenian roots.}

    Yes: absolutely, Turks are Armenians.
    Razib said so

    That is certainly interesting and shows the results of the ultra-ethnic nationalism that Atatürk ushered in. Reminds me a little if what I’ve read about the internally-conflicted Bobby Fischer.

    However, you are talking politics and I am talking science; so there’s likely little grounds for agreement.

    May God grant us contentment and gratitude for the wombs He bore us in.

    Read More
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  127. Avery says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Sure DNA is not infallible, but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well...

    Razib is (by his own admission) an atheist/materialist who is not quite sure that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an actual historic figure; not very solid Islamist material.

    As far as ethnic against similar ethnic, I know of the following:
    Hutus and Tutsis
    "Genetic studies suggest that the Hutu and Tutsi of today are hardly distinguishable (see Leon Rosenberg and Diane Rosenberg, Human Genes and Genomes, p 7). Yet the question as to whether a difference still exists or not remains controversial. As Jon Entine writes in Abraham’s Children, despite the enthusiasm that comes with investigating our genetic heritage there is always the risk of granting too much explanatory power to genetics. Ethnic identity involves more than genetics—namely religion, culture and social and political associations."
    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/08/05/are-genetic-differences-at-the-root-of-the-tutsi-hutu-rwandan-conflict/

    Balkans War (Serbians and Bosnians and Croats are very genetically similar - each side ethnically cleansed the other from its territory)

    Pakistan-India Partition (massive communal violence and territorial ethnic cleansing between Hindu/Muslim/Sikh who were genetically very similar)

    Peace.

    {but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well…}

    Multiple sources using the same flawed data set: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
    One can manipulate data to produce any result to fit an agenda.
    I have been in the field: I know how it’s done.
    There is a huge, well financed industry tasked with “proving” that nomad Turks are indigenous to Asia Minor. Part of the larger agenda to deny the AG and legitimize the theft of other peoples’s lands and property.

    Hutus and Tutsi have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Balkan peoples have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Bosniacs and Albanians – ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans – were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
    But they are indigenous peoples.

    Nomad Turks from East and Central Asia invaded Asia Minor and Armenian Highlands around 1000 A.D.
    You can Razib Khan that till the cows come home.
    Will make no difference.
    Facts are facts.
    Turks are invadonomads in Asia Minor.
    Indigenous Armenians are Armenians and nomad Turks are nomad Turks.

    Good try, but no cigar.
    Take care.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    I figured we'd disagree...

    Bosniacs and Albanians – ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans – were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
     
    You have any proof for this claim? The only forced conversion I know of from that area were slave-boys that were turned into the feared Janissaries (and it wasn't that many of them few thousand every year) - otherwise, why weren't the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.
    "The peasants worked the land and thus generated income for the spahis, though in the first centuries of Ottoman rule taxation and other levies were usually lighter and more regular than they had been under Christian rule. The Ottoman authorities seldom exerted pressure on Christians to convert to Islam, though there were fiscal and legal benefits in doing so....The taxes that they were required to pay included the devşirme, an occasional levy on male children who were taken from Christian households to be converted to Islam and trained as members of the administrative elite of the empire, including the military Janissary corps. Despite the horrors of such separation, there is evidence that children who rose high in the imperial service favoured their native areas."

    The Sufi Orders were successful among the Bosniaks and Albanians (many of the Bosnian families in my area of Chicagoland come to the dhikr gatherings of my teachers who are Naqshbandi Mujaddidi from Pakistani background - these are their common spiritual roots):
    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=3130
    http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/some_notes_on_the_naqshbandi_tariqat_in_bosnia-by_hamid_algar.aspx

    Communists nearly wiped the whole history out (like they tried in Central Asia) - sucks for them...
    "Many other tekkes in this area were also built in the 15th century. In Sarajevo alone there were 47 at one time, many of which are now demolished."
    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnia-s-dervishes-in-a-spin-over-rebuilt-tekke

    Peace.
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  128. Avery says:
    @L.K
    @avery

    Btw, unlike the Palestinians, who had their ancestral homelands recently taken from them by force, who were largely ethnically cleansed from it or are living under a brutal occupation, Armenians at least have a country;

    It is called Armenia.

    Since you are such a proud Armenian, why are you squatting in the zio USA, agitating against Turks with your petty old World hatred??
    Why don't you piss off to Armenia, go live in your country?

    Were I an American, I would not like to have foreign agitators like you in my country.

    {Since you are such a proud Armenian, why are you squatting in the zio USA, agitating against Turks with your petty old World hatred??
    Why don’t you piss off to Armenia, go live in your country?}

    No only are you a neo-Nazi Schweinhund, but you are a certifiable idiot.
    If I am, quote, “squatting”, in Zio-USA, so are you, you neo-Nazi Schweinhund. Must be Hell for you neo-Nazi Schweinhund to live in Zio-USA, isn’t it?

    And since you are such a proud neo-Nazi Schweinhund, why don’t you piss off to your homeland Deutschland, Deutschland über alles. There you can meet many Turks and marry one. You and your significant other can do the namaz under a swastika, outside your nomad yurt.

    Neo-Nazi Schweinhund.
    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

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  129. L.K says:
    @Avery
    {Were I an American,..}


    You an American?
    Surely you jest.
    Unless you have Native American ancestry, you are an immigrant just like me and just like everybody else, beginning with the Mayflower.
    And I highly doubt you have any Native American ancestry, because you are a neo-Nazi Schweinhund.

    Heil Hitler!
    Sieg Heil!

    No, I’m not an American nor do I live in Zamerica.
    That was pretty clear from what I wrote( can’t you read boy?) but, but, that was NOT the point I was making at all; though you are not a very sharp pencil – plus you are a proven liar – I’m sure you got the point.

    Now look, Avery, the Turks are your cousins, live with it! Again:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Now go bitch with the Armenian scientists! :-)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {A group of Armenian....[27]}

    Yes of course, a Wikipedia source.
    What is source [27]?

    [27] Çamlıbel, Cansu (December 24, 2009). "Turks, Armenians share similar genes, say scientists". Hurriyet Daily News. Retrieved 7 May 2013.

    Right, a nationalist, denialist Turk publication claiming something that an Armenian scientist supposedly said. Of course nomad Turks will grasp at and distort anything to "prove" they are not invadonomads from Uyguristan.

    Keep trying boy.

    btw: what dump do you and your Turk significant other do the namaz under a swastika, outside your nomad yurt?
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, perhaps?
    Might be: I remember how you enjoyed the pic of Nazi Schweinhund fertilizing the rich Russian soil outside Stalingrad.
    A beautiful site.
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  130. Talha says:
    @Avery
    {but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well…}

    Multiple sources using the same flawed data set: Garbage In, Garbage Out.
    One can manipulate data to produce any result to fit an agenda.
    I have been in the field: I know how it's done.
    There is a huge, well financed industry tasked with "proving" that nomad Turks are indigenous to Asia Minor. Part of the larger agenda to deny the AG and legitimize the theft of other peoples's lands and property.

    Hutus and Tutsi have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Balkan peoples have been living next to each other for centuries.
    Bosniacs and Albanians - ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans - were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
    But they are indigenous peoples.

    Nomad Turks from East and Central Asia invaded Asia Minor and Armenian Highlands around 1000 A.D.
    You can Razib Khan that till the cows come home.
    Will make no difference.
    Facts are facts.
    Turks are invadonomads in Asia Minor.
    Indigenous Armenians are Armenians and nomad Turks are nomad Turks.

    Good try, but no cigar.
    Take care.

    Hey Avery,

    I figured we’d disagree…

    Bosniacs and Albanians – ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans – were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.

    You have any proof for this claim? The only forced conversion I know of from that area were slave-boys that were turned into the feared Janissaries (and it wasn’t that many of them few thousand every year) – otherwise, why weren’t the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.
    “The peasants worked the land and thus generated income for the spahis, though in the first centuries of Ottoman rule taxation and other levies were usually lighter and more regular than they had been under Christian rule. The Ottoman authorities seldom exerted pressure on Christians to convert to Islam, though there were fiscal and legal benefits in doing so….The taxes that they were required to pay included the devşirme, an occasional levy on male children who were taken from Christian households to be converted to Islam and trained as members of the administrative elite of the empire, including the military Janissary corps. Despite the horrors of such separation, there is evidence that children who rose high in the imperial service favoured their native areas.”

    The Sufi Orders were successful among the Bosniaks and Albanians (many of the Bosnian families in my area of Chicagoland come to the dhikr gatherings of my teachers who are Naqshbandi Mujaddidi from Pakistani background – these are their common spiritual roots):

    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=3130

    http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/some_notes_on_the_naqshbandi_tariqat_in_bosnia-by_hamid_algar.aspx

    Communists nearly wiped the whole history out (like they tried in Central Asia) – sucks for them…
    “Many other tekkes in this area were also built in the 15th century. In Sarajevo alone there were 47 at one time, many of which are now demolished.”

    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnia-s-dervishes-in-a-spin-over-rebuilt-tekke

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Forgot source for first quote:
    https://www.britannica.com/place/Balkans#ref476044

    Also...

    "Among the most important was the Naqshbandi order that spread steadily through towns and villages in the fifteenth century."
    Carved in Stone, Etched in Memory: Death, Tombstones and Commemoration in Bosnian Islam Since C.1500
    , @Avery
    {You have any proof for this claim?}

    When a foreign power, a Muslim power, invades your land, and subjugates you, and your original religion was not Islam, you are ipso facto forced.

    {otherwise, why weren’t the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.}


    Sure it does: some people resist - physically and mentally - better than others.
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  131. Rurik says:
    @Avery
    Hey Talha:

    I am no geneticist, but have some scientific background.
    I’ve read what Razib has written, long before UNZ.com.
    It is one man’s opinion.
    DNA is not infallible, and conclusions are highly dependent on where the sample was collected and from how many.
    There is no doubt nomad Turks have picked up DNA from indigenous populations of Asia Minor, including Armenians. It could not be otherwise, after centuries of stealing others' children.

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
    Simple proof that he and his ilk propagandizing for Uyguroğlar invadonomad Turks are wrong is this: the Armenian Genocide.
    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?

    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?

    um

    civil war?

    WWs one and two?

    to name a few fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {um
    civil war?
    WWs one and two?}


    uuummmm.
    Lookup the definition of Genocide.
    There are war casualties of civilians.
    There are war crimes against civilians.
    There are atrocities, massacres, ethnic cleansing.
    And then a different category entirely - Genocide.

    {fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity}

    Civil wars are not waged for reasons of ethnicity.
    Ideology mainly.
    WW1 was not a fratricidal war.
    Neither was WW2.
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  132. Talha says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    I figured we'd disagree...

    Bosniacs and Albanians – ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans – were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
     
    You have any proof for this claim? The only forced conversion I know of from that area were slave-boys that were turned into the feared Janissaries (and it wasn't that many of them few thousand every year) - otherwise, why weren't the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.
    "The peasants worked the land and thus generated income for the spahis, though in the first centuries of Ottoman rule taxation and other levies were usually lighter and more regular than they had been under Christian rule. The Ottoman authorities seldom exerted pressure on Christians to convert to Islam, though there were fiscal and legal benefits in doing so....The taxes that they were required to pay included the devşirme, an occasional levy on male children who were taken from Christian households to be converted to Islam and trained as members of the administrative elite of the empire, including the military Janissary corps. Despite the horrors of such separation, there is evidence that children who rose high in the imperial service favoured their native areas."

    The Sufi Orders were successful among the Bosniaks and Albanians (many of the Bosnian families in my area of Chicagoland come to the dhikr gatherings of my teachers who are Naqshbandi Mujaddidi from Pakistani background - these are their common spiritual roots):
    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=3130
    http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/some_notes_on_the_naqshbandi_tariqat_in_bosnia-by_hamid_algar.aspx

    Communists nearly wiped the whole history out (like they tried in Central Asia) - sucks for them...
    "Many other tekkes in this area were also built in the 15th century. In Sarajevo alone there were 47 at one time, many of which are now demolished."
    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnia-s-dervishes-in-a-spin-over-rebuilt-tekke

    Peace.

    Forgot source for first quote:

    https://www.britannica.com/place/Balkans#ref476044

    Also…

    “Among the most important was the Naqshbandi order that spread steadily through towns and villages in the fifteenth century.”
    Carved in Stone, Etched in Memory: Death, Tombstones and Commemoration in Bosnian Islam Since C.1500

    Read More
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  133. 5371 says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    Sure DNA is not infallible, but once you start seeing multiple sources reporting the same things, well...

    Razib is (by his own admission) an atheist/materialist who is not quite sure that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was an actual historic figure; not very solid Islamist material.

    As far as ethnic against similar ethnic, I know of the following:
    Hutus and Tutsis
    "Genetic studies suggest that the Hutu and Tutsi of today are hardly distinguishable (see Leon Rosenberg and Diane Rosenberg, Human Genes and Genomes, p 7). Yet the question as to whether a difference still exists or not remains controversial. As Jon Entine writes in Abraham’s Children, despite the enthusiasm that comes with investigating our genetic heritage there is always the risk of granting too much explanatory power to genetics. Ethnic identity involves more than genetics—namely religion, culture and social and political associations."
    https://www.geneticliteracyproject.org/2013/08/05/are-genetic-differences-at-the-root-of-the-tutsi-hutu-rwandan-conflict/

    Balkans War (Serbians and Bosnians and Croats are very genetically similar - each side ethnically cleansed the other from its territory)

    Pakistan-India Partition (massive communal violence and territorial ethnic cleansing between Hindu/Muslim/Sikh who were genetically very similar)

    Peace.

    Your other examples were good, but Tutsis are about 15 cm taller than Hutus.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Thanks - did not know!

    Peace.
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  134. Avery says:
    @Rurik

    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?
     
    um

    civil war?

    WWs one and two?

    to name a few fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity

    {um
    civil war?
    WWs one and two?}

    uuummmm.
    Lookup the definition of Genocide.
    There are war casualties of civilians.
    There are war crimes against civilians.
    There are atrocities, massacres, ethnic cleansing.
    And then a different category entirely – Genocide.

    {fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity}

    Civil wars are not waged for reasons of ethnicity.
    Ideology mainly.
    WW1 was not a fratricidal war.
    Neither was WW2.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    There are atrocities, massacres, ethnic cleansing.
    And then a different category entirely – Genocide.
     
    splitting hairs in my book

    there are some who would call what is being done in Palestine today specifically genocide. And then there are others who would stridently demand that what's being done is only atrocities and sure, ethnic cleansing, but NOT genocide!

    from where I'm sitting, with the advantage of hindsight, the world wars look nothing to me if not a genocidal and fratricidal mass-slaughter of the flower of Europe.

    having German and French and British boys butcher and maim each other in the muddy, frozen trenches by the tens of millions was nothing if not a fratricidal insanity. (can you look at Donald Trump and tell me if his ancestry is French or German or British?)

    just like the American "civil' war, a fratricidal mass-blood-fest which was fought for reasons of ethnicity. Specifically the rights of a certain ethnicity.

    Don't worry Avery, I count what was done to the Armenians as a genocide. Certainly. Just as I figure what was done to the Amerindian as a genocide. The Holodomor too. Same with what's being done to the whites of Zimbabwe or the Arabs of Palestine. Genocide all around. I have no favorite genocides.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  135. Avery says:
    @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    I figured we'd disagree...

    Bosniacs and Albanians – ethnically similar to other peoples of the Balkans – were forcibly Islamized as a result of Muslim Ottoman Turk invasion.
     
    You have any proof for this claim? The only forced conversion I know of from that area were slave-boys that were turned into the feared Janissaries (and it wasn't that many of them few thousand every year) - otherwise, why weren't the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.
    "The peasants worked the land and thus generated income for the spahis, though in the first centuries of Ottoman rule taxation and other levies were usually lighter and more regular than they had been under Christian rule. The Ottoman authorities seldom exerted pressure on Christians to convert to Islam, though there were fiscal and legal benefits in doing so....The taxes that they were required to pay included the devşirme, an occasional levy on male children who were taken from Christian households to be converted to Islam and trained as members of the administrative elite of the empire, including the military Janissary corps. Despite the horrors of such separation, there is evidence that children who rose high in the imperial service favoured their native areas."

    The Sufi Orders were successful among the Bosniaks and Albanians (many of the Bosnian families in my area of Chicagoland come to the dhikr gatherings of my teachers who are Naqshbandi Mujaddidi from Pakistani background - these are their common spiritual roots):
    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=3130
    http://www.studiesincomparativereligion.com/public/articles/some_notes_on_the_naqshbandi_tariqat_in_bosnia-by_hamid_algar.aspx

    Communists nearly wiped the whole history out (like they tried in Central Asia) - sucks for them...
    "Many other tekkes in this area were also built in the 15th century. In Sarajevo alone there were 47 at one time, many of which are now demolished."
    http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/bosnia-s-dervishes-in-a-spin-over-rebuilt-tekke

    Peace.

    {You have any proof for this claim?}

    When a foreign power, a Muslim power, invades your land, and subjugates you, and your original religion was not Islam, you are ipso facto forced.

    {otherwise, why weren’t the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.}

    Sure it does: some people resist – physically and mentally – better than others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Avery,

    OK - so you don't have proof, you just
    completely disagree on certain basic definitions. By your logic; when the British Raj took control of India militarily and brought the various sultanates and kingdoms to heel, any Muslims or Hindus that became Christian at the hands of missionaries (as some most certainly did) were forcibly converted.

    No problem, everyone is entitled to their opinions...

    Peace.
    , @bunga
    You are a liar You have been lying a lot. When you were confronted with facts from sources of Chicago Tribune, NYT, Wikipedia,and books on Russia and on Crimea and books on spread of islam or articles on spread of Christianity including in the Russian heartland and Armenian mountains- you don't rebut but make putrid racial comments . You have poor memory and that comes handy to contradict yourself .

    There is a saying in Sri Lanka :" The elephant walks down the royal road lit by the sun . The dog barks from the dark alley "

    Thanks to LK Art and Talha for elucidating on the complex issue and introducing civility
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  136. Avery says:
    @L.K
    No, I'm not an American nor do I live in Zamerica.
    That was pretty clear from what I wrote( can't you read boy?) but, but, that was NOT the point I was making at all; though you are not a very sharp pencil - plus you are a proven liar - I'm sure you got the point.

    Now look, Avery, the Turks are your cousins, live with it! Again:

    A group of Armenian scientists conducted a study about the origins of the Turkish people in relation to Armenians. Savak Avagian; director of Armenia’s bone marrow bank found that “Turks and Armenians were the two societies throughout the world that were genetically close to each other. Kurds are also in same genetic pool”.[27]

    Now go bitch with the Armenian scientists! :-)

    {A group of Armenian….[27]}

    Yes of course, a Wikipedia source.
    What is source [27]?

    [27] Çamlıbel, Cansu (December 24, 2009). “Turks, Armenians share similar genes, say scientists”. Hurriyet Daily News. Retrieved 7 May 2013.

    Right, a nationalist, denialist Turk publication claiming something that an Armenian scientist supposedly said. Of course nomad Turks will grasp at and distort anything to “prove” they are not invadonomads from Uyguristan.

    Keep trying boy.

    btw: what dump do you and your Turk significant other do the namaz under a swastika, outside your nomad yurt?
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, perhaps?
    Might be: I remember how you enjoyed the pic of Nazi Schweinhund fertilizing the rich Russian soil outside Stalingrad.
    A beautiful site.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Why, why, WHY in the world would ANY nationalist Turk (or their publications) want to admit a close genetic relation to Armenians??!! That makes absolutely no sense - you yourself cited sources that show how much of an allergic reaction many Turks have to just the thought.

    I would think this actually evidences lack of bias for the subject at hand...

    Peace.

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  137. Rurik says:
    @Avery
    {um
    civil war?
    WWs one and two?}


    uuummmm.
    Lookup the definition of Genocide.
    There are war casualties of civilians.
    There are war crimes against civilians.
    There are atrocities, massacres, ethnic cleansing.
    And then a different category entirely - Genocide.

    {fratricidal wars waged for reasons of ethnicity}

    Civil wars are not waged for reasons of ethnicity.
    Ideology mainly.
    WW1 was not a fratricidal war.
    Neither was WW2.

    There are atrocities, massacres, ethnic cleansing.
    And then a different category entirely – Genocide.

    splitting hairs in my book

    there are some who would call what is being done in Palestine today specifically genocide. And then there are others who would stridently demand that what’s being done is only atrocities and sure, ethnic cleansing, but NOT genocide!

    from where I’m sitting, with the advantage of hindsight, the world wars look nothing to me if not a genocidal and fratricidal mass-slaughter of the flower of Europe.

    having German and French and British boys butcher and maim each other in the muddy, frozen trenches by the tens of millions was nothing if not a fratricidal insanity. (can you look at Donald Trump and tell me if his ancestry is French or German or British?)

    just like the American “civil’ war, a fratricidal mass-blood-fest which was fought for reasons of ethnicity. Specifically the rights of a certain ethnicity.

    Don’t worry Avery, I count what was done to the Armenians as a genocide. Certainly. Just as I figure what was done to the Amerindian as a genocide. The Holodomor too. Same with what’s being done to the whites of Zimbabwe or the Arabs of Palestine. Genocide all around. I have no favorite genocides.

    Read More
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  138. Talha says:
    @Avery
    {You have any proof for this claim?}

    When a foreign power, a Muslim power, invades your land, and subjugates you, and your original religion was not Islam, you are ipso facto forced.

    {otherwise, why weren’t the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.}


    Sure it does: some people resist - physically and mentally - better than others.

    Hey Avery,

    OK – so you don’t have proof, you just
    completely disagree on certain basic definitions. By your logic; when the British Raj took control of India militarily and brought the various sultanates and kingdoms to heel, any Muslims or Hindus that became Christian at the hands of missionaries (as some most certainly did) were forcibly converted.

    No problem, everyone is entitled to their opinions…

    Peace.

    Read More
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  139. bunga says:
    @Avery
    {You have any proof for this claim?}

    When a foreign power, a Muslim power, invades your land, and subjugates you, and your original religion was not Islam, you are ipso facto forced.

    {otherwise, why weren’t the Serbs and others forcefully converted en masse? Makes no sense.}


    Sure it does: some people resist - physically and mentally - better than others.

    You are a liar You have been lying a lot. When you were confronted with facts from sources of Chicago Tribune, NYT, Wikipedia,and books on Russia and on Crimea and books on spread of islam or articles on spread of Christianity including in the Russian heartland and Armenian mountains- you don’t rebut but make putrid racial comments . You have poor memory and that comes handy to contradict yourself .

    There is a saying in Sri Lanka :” The elephant walks down the royal road lit by the sun . The dog barks from the dark alley ”

    Thanks to LK Art and Talha for elucidating on the complex issue and introducing civility

    Read More
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  140. Talha says:
    @5371
    Your other examples were good, but Tutsis are about 15 cm taller than Hutus.

    Thanks – did not know!

    Peace.

    Read More
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  141. Talha says:
    @Avery
    {A group of Armenian....[27]}

    Yes of course, a Wikipedia source.
    What is source [27]?

    [27] Çamlıbel, Cansu (December 24, 2009). "Turks, Armenians share similar genes, say scientists". Hurriyet Daily News. Retrieved 7 May 2013.

    Right, a nationalist, denialist Turk publication claiming something that an Armenian scientist supposedly said. Of course nomad Turks will grasp at and distort anything to "prove" they are not invadonomads from Uyguristan.

    Keep trying boy.

    btw: what dump do you and your Turk significant other do the namaz under a swastika, outside your nomad yurt?
    Deutschland, Deutschland über alles, perhaps?
    Might be: I remember how you enjoyed the pic of Nazi Schweinhund fertilizing the rich Russian soil outside Stalingrad.
    A beautiful site.

    Why, why, WHY in the world would ANY nationalist Turk (or their publications) want to admit a close genetic relation to Armenians??!! That makes absolutely no sense – you yourself cited sources that show how much of an allergic reaction many Turks have to just the thought.

    I would think this actually evidences lack of bias for the subject at hand…

    Peace.

    Read More
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  142. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
    @Avery
    Hey Talha:

    I am no geneticist, but have some scientific background.
    I’ve read what Razib has written, long before UNZ.com.
    It is one man’s opinion.
    DNA is not infallible, and conclusions are highly dependent on where the sample was collected and from how many.
    There is no doubt nomad Turks have picked up DNA from indigenous populations of Asia Minor, including Armenians. It could not be otherwise, after centuries of stealing others' children.

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.
    Simple proof that he and his ilk propagandizing for Uyguroğlar invadonomad Turks are wrong is this: the Armenian Genocide.
    I know of no genocide perpetrated by one ethnos against its own members on ethnic grounds.
    Do you ?

    You wrote:

    Razib is an Islamist pushing Islamist disinformation.

    I strongly disagree. I have my own little issues with Mr. Khan,
    but he is not Islamist. I also started to read Razib Khan at different sites well before creation of
    “Unz Review”, and none of his posts gives any hint that he is an Islamist.
    Yes, he is quite knowledgeable of Islam. He is of Bengali ancestry. So what ?

    Read More
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  143. kikz says:

    “Some absurdly see the hand of the CIA working together with Pennsylvania exile Fethullah Gulen to bring down the Turkish government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a hypothesis that greatly exaggerates the capabilities and intentions of both the Agency and Gulen’s “Hizmet” Movement.”

    why the short shrift on Gulen – Giraldi? more worrisome to me is Gulen’s capabilities and intentions fueled/funded by public taxpayer funds for his clearly muzzi schools in the US and abroad. his stated strategy is to subvert from w/in by a ‘boys frm brazil’ rearing of the nextgen of Turk powerstructure. what if these plans apply to the US infrastructure as well, no matter what the MOU w/the CIA pantomimes? under this long term strategy he has entrenched muzzi organs of political clout w/our universities which have obvious links to the muzzi brotherhood, who is already well ensconced in the bra regime. as far as i can discern, Gulen and his gang should be on your radar as well, but aren’t. have i missed any recent postings on the ‘Gulen Watch’? Gulen is only one tine of a multi-pronged long game being played against Americans in their own back yards, utilizing American’s own tax monies and bad immigration law/executive treason (HB1s) to import them, while they fund their own advancement here and abroad for sharia law/life.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Philip Giraldi
    Actually Kikz I have has some serious contact with Hizmet people and do have some concerns about them. It has a cult-like quality, no doubt about it, with many adherents consistently singing from the same sheet of music. But it does encourage dialogue and education, which are not necessarily bad, and I do not believe that it has anywhere near the power that has been attributed to it. Just because many students go through the schools does not necessarily mean that they come out the other end as dedicated and fully brainwashed members of something like the Muslim brotherhood. I think Gulen had it right in his interview on TV this weekend when he conceded that some of his adherents had been involved in the coup attempt while at the same time denying that he or his associates had organized it or led it.
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  144. @kikz
    "Some absurdly see the hand of the CIA working together with Pennsylvania exile Fethullah Gulen to bring down the Turkish government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a hypothesis that greatly exaggerates the capabilities and intentions of both the Agency and Gulen’s “Hizmet” Movement."

    why the short shrift on Gulen - Giraldi? more worrisome to me is Gulen's capabilities and intentions fueled/funded by public taxpayer funds for his clearly muzzi schools in the US and abroad. his stated strategy is to subvert from w/in by a 'boys frm brazil' rearing of the nextgen of Turk powerstructure. what if these plans apply to the US infrastructure as well, no matter what the MOU w/the CIA pantomimes? under this long term strategy he has entrenched muzzi organs of political clout w/our universities which have obvious links to the muzzi brotherhood, who is already well ensconced in the bra regime. as far as i can discern, Gulen and his gang should be on your radar as well, but aren't. have i missed any recent postings on the 'Gulen Watch'? Gulen is only one tine of a multi-pronged long game being played against Americans in their own back yards, utilizing American's own tax monies and bad immigration law/executive treason (HB1s) to import them, while they fund their own advancement here and abroad for sharia law/life.

    Actually Kikz I have has some serious contact with Hizmet people and do have some concerns about them. It has a cult-like quality, no doubt about it, with many adherents consistently singing from the same sheet of music. But it does encourage dialogue and education, which are not necessarily bad, and I do not believe that it has anywhere near the power that has been attributed to it. Just because many students go through the schools does not necessarily mean that they come out the other end as dedicated and fully brainwashed members of something like the Muslim brotherhood. I think Gulen had it right in his interview on TV this weekend when he conceded that some of his adherents had been involved in the coup attempt while at the same time denying that he or his associates had organized it or led it.

    Read More
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  145. […] the wake of the failed military coup in Turkey earlier this month against its autocrat Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a notable longtime partner of […]

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  146. […] to Erdogan’s pivot East. But as Phil Giraldi, a former CIA agent who was stationed in Turkey, has pointed out the coup plotters and other Erdogan opponents hated his Syria policy and would welcome his […]

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  147. […] the wake of the failed military coup in Turkey earlier this month against its autocrat Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a notable longtime partner of […]

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  148. […] the wake of the failed military coup in Turkey earlier this month against its autocrat Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a notable longtime partner of […]

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  149. Immigrant from former USSR [AKA "Florida Resident"] says:
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  150. […] Source: Erdogan Takes Control – The Unz Review […]

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  151. […] Erdogan’s pivot East. But as Philip Giraldi, a former CIA agent who was stationed in Turkey, has pointed out the coup plotters and other Erdogan opponents hated his Syria policy and would welcome his […]

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  152. […] to Erdogan’s pivot East. But as Phil Giraldi, a former CIA agent who was stationed in Turkey, has pointed out the coup plotters and other Erdogan opponents hated his Syria policy and would welcome his […]

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  153. […] to Erdogan’s pivot East. But as Phil Giraldi, a former CIA agent stationed in Turkey, has pointed out the coup plotters and other Erdogan opponents hated his Syria policy and would welcome his […]

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  154. […] the wake of the failed military coup in Turkey earlier this month against its autocrat Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a notable longtime partner of […]

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  155. […] the wake of the failed military coup in Turkey earlier this month against its autocrat Recep Tayyip Erdogan, a notable longtime partner of […]

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  156. […] a rare confluence of concern, critical reflections about Erdogan have come both from staunch political conservatives and from pillars of the political Left, […]

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