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Did Iranian Weapons Kill Americans?
Another phony argument against a deal with Iran

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There is a new entrant in the already crowded field of Israeli Lobby funded groups opposed to an agreement with Iran over its nuclear program. It is the “wounded warriors” and their families denouncing the perfidious Persians. The first salvo was fired on August 4th in a letter to Rupert Murdoch’s New York Post from the daughter of an Army Lieutenant Colonel killed in Iraq by “Iranian weapons,” who concluded that “we are already at war with Iran.”

After the letter ads began to appear in television markets where congressmen considered to be vulnerable to pressure from Israel’s friends were located. The ads were produced by a group called “Veterans Against an Iran Deal,” whose executive director is Michael Pregent, a former adviser to General David Petraeus who is also an “Expert” affiliated with the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), an American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) spin off. The group has a website which claims that “the Iranian regime murdered and maimed thousands of Americans” but there is no indication who exactly supports it and is providing funding or what kind of following it has.

The group’s first ad featured as a spokesman a retired army Staff Sergeant named Robert Bartlett. In the video, Bartlett, whose face bears the scars resulting from being on the receiving end of an improvised explosive device in Iraq, claims he was “blown up by an Iranian bomb.” In addition to blaming Iran for providing Iraqi insurgents with the weapons that were used to maim him and kill his colleagues he also tells how Iranians would “kidnap kids” and kill them in front of their parents. Per Bartlett, those who deal with Iran will have “blood on their hands” and will be responsible for funding Iranian terror.

It is obviously easy to sympathize with Bartlett for the suffering he has endured as cannon fodder in one of America’s pointless wars, but a little introspection on his part might be in order. Iran did not invade a non-threatening Iraq in 2003. Bartlett’s own government did that. And the bad guys who took aim at Bartlett? They were people defending their homes and families against an invader and lacking tanks they had to resort to homemade weapons. If Sergeant Bartlett really wants to blame someone for what happened to him he would be much better advised to point his finger at ex-President George W. Bush and his close advisers.

Bartlett’s anger is nevertheless understandable, but his claim that he was maimed by Iranian provided weapons should not go unchallenged. In actual fact, it is a lie. In 2005 the Bush Administration began to claim that Iran had been “interfering” in Iraq. The claim, rarely backed up by an substance, was based on suppositions about Tehran’s likely interests regarding its predominantly Shi’ite neighbor and it was little more than an excuse to explain the persistence and intensity of Iraqi resistance to the American invasion.

Sophisticated roadside bombs using shaped charges, initially referred to as Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) and subsequently as Explosively Formed Penetrators (EFPs), first appeared in Iraq in the summer of 2004. Initial reports on the weapon in June 2005, stated that it was being used by Sunni insurgents and was likely produced by ordnance experts from the disbanded Iraqi Army. Saddam Hussein’s Iraq had a large army with a sophisticated if limited ability to produce some weapons in its own armories. When the army was foolishly disbanded by the Coalition Provisional Authority, skilled workers who had been employed in the weapons shops were made redundant and took with them the knowledge to make any number of improvised weapons using the materiel that remained in Iraq’s arms storage depots.

The first suggestion that Iran might be involved with such weapons in an attempt to destabilize the situation in Iraq appeared on August 4th, 2005, in a report stating that US soldiers had “intercepted” shaped charges “smuggled into northeastern Iraq only last week.” Shaped charges were the most successful weapons being used against the so-called Multi-National Force headed by the U.S. As northeastern Iraq borders Iran one version of the story stated that “it could not have happened without the full consent of the Iranian government.”

The indictment of Iran as the source of weapons being used by insurgents continued and intensified as the security situation in Iraq deteriorated. Some media coverage attributed the killing of hundreds of American soldiers to Iranian supplied weapons because any death by EFP was immediately attributed to Iran. In spite of the lack of any solid evidence, the largely neoconservative supporters of pre-emptive action against Iran stated specifically that Iran was “killing American soldiers” through its provision of sophisticated weaponry. A nearly hysterical progress report given to Congress by General David Petraeus and Ambassador Ryan Crocker on April 8, 2008 went even farther, claiming that Iran was responsible for most of the violence occurring in Iraq.

But the argument about Iranian involvement in Iraq was itself logically inconsistent, something that Crocker and Petraeus should have understood. The Iraqi insurgency in the period 2004-2006 was largely Sunni and hostile to Iran. That the Iranians would be supplying the Sunnis or that the Sunnis would have sought such aid was implausible.

The first rule of verification is who, what, when, where, why. While there continued to be numerous unsourced reports suggesting that Iran was supplying weapons to militias there was not a single bit of evidence identifying weapons that were unambiguously traced to Iran on a given day and at a given location that were used to kill Americans. Nor was there ever a credible report on how many alleged Iranian manufactured weapons were actually found in Iraq. Iranian weapons for the export trade were at the time relatively freely available in Asian secondary arms markets. If only a few weapons of uncertain provenance were found it would be difficult to imagine a systematic government supported attempt at smuggling in arms.

A chain of custody whereby the weapons can be seen to move from the Iranian government through channels controlled by that same government into the hands of insurgents and militias with the intent to use the weapons against the occupation forces is a sine qua non for claiming Tehran’s interference. As the United States controlled the ground inside Iraq smuggling mechanisms would have been identifiable using intelligence and police resources, even if the Iranians were attempting to conceal the process. This is particularly true as linking Iran to the weapons flow would have been a high priority objective for the multinational force and for the reconstituted Iraqi police.

As Sergeant Bartlett notes, the weapon of choice for the insurgency was indeed a “bomb,” the EFP, which was frequently deployed along roadsides against American armor. The EFP is very simple to make. It consists of a concave copper disk that is placed at the top of a tube. At the bottom of the tube is a military grade plastic explosive charge attached to a detonator. The detonator causes the explosive to go off, the heat and explosive power turning the copper disk into a molten jet of metal that can penetrate as much as eight inches of steel.

The claim that EFPs deployed in Iraq originated in Iran accepted in part that the EFP was actually a sophisticated weapon that could not be produced by Iraqis without Iranian assistance but there are problems with that assumption. The American military knew perfectly well that the Iraqis were more than capable of making the weapon because both U.S. and British forces captured machine shops assembling such devices. The weapon can, in fact, be made by any reasonably competent machine shop that has a metal lathe and access to explosives. U.S. Army Special Forces training manuals that provided instructions on making and using shaped charges were available on the internet at the time of the Iraq War. They have since been deleted but the information is still available online.

The often repeated charge that Iran had been responsible for 170 deaths of American soldiers in Iraq, leading inevitably to the still to be heard “they are already at war with us” rhetoric, comes from assuming that every EFP used in Iraq was Iranian in origin and that Tehran was complicit in providing the weapons or their components. There is no actual evidence for either assertion. As noted above, the EFP material could be produced locally without any Iranian government involvement in the process.

A related specific claim that as many as fifty Iranian Revolutionary Guards were on the loose in southern Iraq equipping Shi’ite militias with EFPs and training them in their use was a media invention that was never actually verified but became part of the folklore of war in Iraq. One assumes that the US and Iraqi authorities would have made a major effort to detain such individuals, which suggests that their existence was completely apocryphal.

Sergeant Bartlett, given all of the above, I hate to disillusion you, but there is no evidence whatsoever that Iran did anything to you either directly or indirectly. I don’t know if anyone is paying you to come forward to denounce an agreement reached by our president with Iran but your timing appears to be coordinated with the much broader well financed effort to denigrate the Iranians in every way possible. Your expressed hatred for a nation with which the United States has never been at war might only serve to bring about yet another conflict in the Middle East, quite likely far more catastrophic and pointless than the military intervention that maimed you and killed your buddies. Do you really think that is a good idea?

 
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177 Comments to "Did Iranian Weapons Kill Americans?"

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  1. Arizona has been getting a similar advert sponsored by ‘American Security Initiative’ which is out of Texas. The Arizona version warns senators and/or congressmen that “they will be held to account.” ‘American Security Initiative’ is trying to spook Sen. Jeff ‘snow’ Flake. I think Flake has already capitulated to his Israelis sponsors.
    Nonetheless, the advert is wildly off the mark and rife with innuendo and baldfaced lies.
    Thank you Mr. Giraldi for bringing light to one very dark corner of Zionist subterfuge.

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  2. who cares? What were they doing over there anyway? If you are over there and get killed, tough luck. Don’t go over there and ya won’t get killed.

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  3. Phil, as always, great job at debunking the lies pumped out by the Lobby. Thank goodness for Internet sites like UR, as you’d never read an article like this in the MSM.

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
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  4. Ironically, the 2003 American invasion advanced Iranian interests by taking out Saddam’s Sunni regime, allowing the Shi’ to take over the Iraqi government and army. Also, as Mr. Giraldi pointed out, the suicide bombers were disaffected Sunni who were removed from the Iraqi army and government. Knowing these basic facts is the key to discrediting Neocon agitprop.

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  5. It is really unfortunate that Sergeant Bartlett and others like him are allowing themselves to be used by Neocons – again.
    Their anger should be directed at those who sent them illegally into a country that had neither threatened not attacked US, where 1000s were unfortunately badly wounded or crippled (in addition to about 4,500 being killed)
    And it is a little strange that no mention is being made in those ads of 100s of 1000s dead and crippled Iraqis, and the fact that a functioning, ordered State has been turned into a dystopia.
    At the hands of American wounded warriors like Sergeant Bartlett.

    And all these efforts to derail the Iran agreement in the US Congress are for naught.
    US can reject the agreement, and it will have zero effect because EU countries will move ahead regardless of what US does, and US will be standing all alone.

    EU will lift the sanctions no matter what US Congress does.
    The game is over.

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  6. @ Avery,
    “…US will be standing all alone.” When it comes to Israel and the Middle East, the US is also always standing alone. If the deal passes, this will be a rare moment in which the United States isn’t completely isolated from the EU and the rest of the world.

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  7. I’ll point out if the Iranians wished to use Iraqi Sunnis to kill Americans, it’d be as simple as employing a ‘cut-out’ (in the trade craft sense) but even then it would make little sense. The Americans were clearly positioning themselves for disaster in Iraq, relating to the Sunnis particularly, and all Iran needed do was sit back and watch the show. And likely that’s mostly what they did; and of course things are never so simple as surface symptoms. It was during David Petraeus first tour in Iraq where he was assigned to train and organize the Iraqi police ‘elites’, people running a program promoting what became the sectarian civil war were directly reporting to him:

    A 15-month investigation by the Guardian and BBC Arabic reveals how retired US colonel James Steele, a veteran of American proxy wars in El Salvador and Nicaragua, played a key role in training and overseeing US-funded special police commandos who ran a network of torture centres in Iraq. Another special forces veteran, Colonel James Coffman, worked with Steele and reported directly to General David Petraeus, who had been sent into Iraq to organise the Iraqi security services

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2013/mar/06/james-steele-america-iraq-video

    ^ Associated with this endeavor were Shia death squads aka ‘Badr Brigades’ (populated with Petraeus trained Iraqi ‘police commandos’) from which endeavors the city of Baghdad had to collect the numerous Sunni bodies found dead on the street every morning, for years. Small wonder the Sunnis are blowing up Baghdad markets in Shia neighborhoods to this day.

    Sgt Bartlett’s enemies aren’t necessarily Iraqis or Iranians, good call Phil -

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  8. One day the Iraqis are capable of producing a nuclear weapon and the next they are incapable of making an EFP. How strange the ways of American propaganda!

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  9. It was during David Petraeus first tour in Iraq where he was assigned to train and organize the Iraqi police ‘elites’

    I can just envision David Petraeus rummaging around in the basement of The Pentagon, “Now where did we put those old Savak training manuals.”

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  10. Agree

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  11. LOL, you think you get to choose your venues of deployment in the military. “Don’t be there” is the same justification blacks and progtards use to justify themselves. Also, who cares? Families of the soldiers killed, buddies of th soldiers killed, etc.

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  12. Well, when he Iraqis were working on nukes, the heavy lifting in research there wasn’t really done by anyone born in Iraq.

    • Disagree: Orville H. Larson
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  13. I’m going to get lynched for this, and I don’t know how much value to put in it but here goes…

    In the British army in Afghanistan, in my own experience it was generally accepted/rumoured by all that the best Taliban IEDs were of Iranian design.

    I don’t know where this notion came from but it was widespread and also repeated by our intelligence officers.

    To me it makes perfect sense and is nothing to get revenge for.

    All countries have supported those also opposed to them at some point in order to stick it to a mutual enemy.

    The same logic applies to some extent with the Iranians and the Sunnis in Iraq.

    Just as now the Hazara in Afghanistan have a better relationship with the Taliban, in order to stick it to Islamic State.

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  14. hey, I was in the military, too.

    But if you go into the military, you put your life at risk. Don’t come crying to me when that risk comes to fruition.

    Especially if you die in some faraway nation where we have no business being.

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  15. Wrong Sean. The Iraqis were renowned throughout the Middle East for the high quality engineers that their education system (which was very good by anyone’s standards) produced. Constructing a bomb is an engineering problem as the technology is well known and it has little to do with “research.”

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  16. the iraqis NEED the bomb….otherwise the USA is gonna invade them and they will be fodder for the global corporations….

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  17. {“…was generally accepted/rumoured by all that the best Taliban IEDs were of Iranian design.”}

    Right: “generally accepted/rumoured”.
    Sounds like hard evidence to me.

    And what does “Iranian design” mean ?
    The shaped charge design has been known for decades: it is no big secret.
    As Mr. Giraldi wrote above, the hard part, if there is such a thing for an IED, is actually building it.

    If you actually were in the British Army in Afghanistan, and the rumour was as you describe, then it was planted by your superiors to create the narrative for future Anti-Iranian disinformation.

    Margolis has a good article about how Brits ” sexed up the intelligence” (we call it “lying”) to give themselves the excuse to invade:

    http://www.unz.com/emargolis/republicans-cant-face-the-truth-about-iraq/

    {PM Tony Blair, forced British intelligence services to “sex up” reports that Iraq had nuclear weapons; he purged the government and the venerable broadcaster BBC of journalists who failed to amplify Blair’s lies. Bush and Blair reportedly discussed painting a US Air Force plane in UN colors and getting it to buzz Iraqi anti-aircraft sites in hope the Iraqis would fire on it. Bush told Blair that after conquering Iraq, he intended to invade Iran, Syria, Libya and Pakistan.}

    Those are the leaders who feed you the “generally accepted/rumoured” stuff, mate.

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  18. do the words ALL- VOLUNTEER MILITARY mean anything to you, regresstard?

    If folks don’t lend their bodies and suspend their brains for Bush, Cheney, Obama, Petraeus, and the Izzies to use to kill other people’s children, they’d have to do the killing themselves.

    Can you picture Robert Kagan or Kimberly Kagan living in a barracks and shouldering a MANPAD?

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  19. agree with radical:

    It is true that when you sign up, you go where you are sent.
    But it is also true that every American who enlists takes an oath to support and defend the US Constitution.
    What part of the US Constitution was Sergeant Bartlett defending in Iraq?

    I have no problem with POTUS hitting back at Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11, because of the circumstances.
    But an illegal war of choice with Iraq is another matter.
    Sergeant Bartlett _volunteered_ to join the military and agreed to be sent wherever he is ordered to.
    He took his chances.
    He should not cry about an enemy hitting back when he was there to kill them.
    He should get all the medical care, etc due him by his country which sent him to Iraq: part of the deal.

    But the problem is that he is now participating in a disinformation campaign to derail a peace initiative.
    What Neocons want is another war – with Iran.
    That’s their ultimate objective.
    Peace is like light to these bloodthirsty vampires.
    And Sergeant Bartlett is participating in that effort.
    So that some other future Sergeant Bartletts will get crippled in a future war with a country that is no threat to US and never has been.

    That is why Sergeant Bartlett loses a lot of sympathy from people here.

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  20. Not wanting to do the bidding of Israel is understandable, since many in the US Congress care more for Israel’s sovereignty and security than our own. However, to claim that Shia militia members, supported by Iran, were NOT running wild in Iraq is probably willful ignorance on the part of the author. Hezbollah operatives were captured by US forces inside Iraq, and they were absolutely responsible for the deaths of American soldiers.
    The deal with Iran could easily be opposed simply based on the fact that John Kerry made it and Barack Obama supports it. Neither of these men have America’s best interests at heart. Just because they’re sticking it to Israel on this one issue doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

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  21. Much ado about nothin’. If the world did not pause, and take a collective sigh of relief when this agreement, any agreement, is made with Iran, well, you ain’t done nothin’. Nothing has changed, worse yet, there is no way for it to change. Don’t believe me? Go over the remarks and comments made by the participants of this “deal” and you find that the absolute last consideration of this agreement is peace.
    This agreement, as far as the US side of it is concerned, is the result of a child President, totally incompetent for the job, and who has surrounded himself with stupid people, adolescent stupid people at that, who’s method of advising is to stand around in a circle shouting, “Do this! Do that!”. This agreement was concluded by a complete failure named John Kerry, and was done so in a state of panic, simply to try and give the Idiot-in Chief some sort of “legacy”. Amateurs at work!

    So we try to talk about this “treaty” like it really means something, like this article, an “in depth” look at a fresh dog turd in the front yard.

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  22. cui bono is pretty simple at this point. Israeli hardliners want Iran atomized like Iraq. To some Iraq looks like a disaster, to others it is a great success in breaking up a barrier to Israel’s ‘clean break’….
    I expect the mountains of propaganda and ‘bad intelligence’ continue.

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  23. This agreement has only one purpose – get us out of the sanctions business before Europe and Japan break ranks with us and get out on their own leaving us as the only country with sanctions on Iran. Other countries are sick of being told what to do in their international relations by us. Europe and Japan want to buy Iranian oil and gas and sell things to Iran.

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  24. The titan arum, the first of two flowers in this list nicknamed the corpse flower, carries the unfortunate designation of being “the worst smelling flower in the world.” It smells like — you guessed it — a stinking, rotting corpse

    http://www.mnn.com/your-home/organic-farming-gardening/photos/9-of-the-worst-smelling-flowers-in-the-world/titan-arum

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  25. anonymous
    says:
         Show CommentNext New Comment

    So how many people around the world have been killed and maimed by American made weapons? There’s probably a lot of anger about that also but our media doesn’t report on that issue. IEDs are not high tech weapons like we happen to have such as helicopter gunships, drones, jet fighters and bombers, guided missiles, etc, all of which we are using against underarmed insurgents. Perhaps Mr Bartlett would like to trade weapons with them?
    Of course Iran is going to get involved in the region; it’s right next door to them. We are the ones traveling thousands of miles to interfere in other countries. It’s not like the old days when natives armed with spears could be mowed down with modern weapons. They’ve learned, gone to university, know world politics, have other successful insurgencies as examples, and have the determination to continue fighting. Remember, they live there and we don’t.

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  26. I agree that “sanctions” may be a tiny, ancillary, aspect of the treaty, but if that was the only issue, the Obama WH would never have touched it. Without sanctions, what weapons do this country have? Besides, sanctions ARE the typical American weapon of choice, as if makes everyone else do our fighting for us.
    Are you saying that if EU and Japan break ranks, we are defenseless? If that is so, this “treaty” ain’t gonna help shite.
    But you’ve got to look at the production company. David Lean turns out masterpieces, the Sci-Fi channel productions are thought of as junk by 4 year-olds. If this Iran Treaty dog turd is only half the size of the Obamacare dog turd, we ought to be in the middle of World War IV by this time next week.

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  27. disclaimer: Some of what our smelly flower says is absolutely correct; re Kerry, Obama and the adolescents running things while shouting ‘do this! do that!! … particularly Sam Power and Susan Rice. On the other hand, no agreement seems like handing the next neo-con-in-chief a free pass to initiate Bibi’s desired result -

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  28. This agreement has only one purpose – get us out of the sanctions business before Europe and Japan break ranks with us…

    That certainly appears to be the only logical purpose.

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  29. Dr Giraldi,

    A little off topic but I have a question for you:

    Do you suspect (or speculate for that matter), that WINEP, AIPAC etc. are receiving any direct funding from monies earmarked for loan guarantees to Israel by the U.S., (i.e., from the $5.8b recently “upgraded ” amount)? The reason I ask is that my inquiries re: membership dues, average contributions and estimated expenditures are not tallying within a tolerable limit.

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  30. In 2012-13 the USA sold more than $26.9 billion worth of weapons to foreign nations – $3.7 billion to the UAE alone. How many people do you think were killed, maimed, or bereaved by THOSE weapons?

    Incidentally, any Americans taking part in the unprovoked war of aggression against Iraq were automatically committing war crimes by doing so. Had they stayed at home where they belonged, they would have come to no harm (unless of course they were attacked by the violent American police).

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  31. “…they are already at war with us…”

    True only in the sense that the USA had committed many, serious and repeated acts of war against Iran. As in so many other cases, Americans do so smugly, certain that the victim nation cannot retaliate in any way.

    Historically, such assumptions have a nasty way of turning round and biting one’s leg to the bone.

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  32. Right: “generally accepted/rumoured”.
    Sounds like hard evidence to me

    I recognised your point in my post.

    And what does “Iranian design” mean ?
    The shaped charge design has been known for decades: it is no big secret.
    As Mr. Giraldi wrote above, the hard part, if there is such a thing for an IED, is actually building it.

    Mr Giraldi is absolutely incorrect on this point. IED design is a complex field and was extremely innovative in Afghanistan.

    The difficulty is not only the shaped charge but making it undetectable. One innovation, for example, was zero metal content pressure plate IEDs.

    Other IEDs, such as remote detonate devices, also require significant innovation. This is in order to defeat the different and sophisticated jamming decides deployed by ISAF forces.

    Also there is an art as to where to place them, how to chain them together and how to shape them to defeat heavily armoured vehicles.

    ISAF nations spent incredible amounts of money to defeat the ever changing and innovating IEDs in Afghanistan and I assume it was the same in Iraq.

    You discredit yourself with your utter cluelessness.

    Those are the leaders who feed you the “generally accepted/rumoured” stuff, mate

    I wouldn’t trust Tony Blair as far as I can throw him but the information is I have, though not formal, is certainly based on the experience on analysis of middle-ranking individuals.

    I don’t know if it is true, but I do know that Mr Giraldi knows nothing about IEDs, much less even than the typical private soldier.

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  33. “And it is a little strange that no mention is being made in those ads of 100s of 1000s dead and crippled Iraqis…”

    Avery, that’s at least 2.8 million dead Iraqis – plus an unknown but very large number of crippled. The bereaved and homeless number even more. Half a Holocaust: a memorable achievement.

    See “Genocide in Iraq” (2 volumes) by Abdul-Haq Al-Ani and Tarik Al-Ani.

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  34. Sam – There is frequent speculation that money used to fund the various Lobby entities comes from money diverted from the loan guarantees, from designated funds included in the annual defense appropriation or directly from Israel’s government budget. Some suspect that our own tax dollars are paying for the effort being made to overturn our government policies. I do not think that to be the case. All the major organizations (AIPAC, WINEP, FDD) have donors with very deep pockets who can be relied upon to contribute heavily to special projects, to include the current “Iran program.”

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  35. The democratically elected government, which rules through the consent of the people, sent those soldiers to Iraq.

    I vehemently disagree with the Iraq War and I do not agree with the vast majority of government policies, but I also have the humility to recognise that it is not my choice and that I have a duty.

    Obviously there are limits to duty, but soldiers volunteers to follow the directions of a government.

    A government which the people allows to govern.

    If the people allow the government to send the soldiers off to pointlessly die then the least the people can do is support those soldiers.

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  36. That is one of the fundamental issues of “democracy”. Honourable men and women sign up to join the armed forces and defend their country. But by doing so they put themselves at the mercy of ruthless self-seeking psychopaths who have the power to send them off to murder innocent people who have done them no harm, nor ever intend to do so.

    If our nations were truly ruled by law, rather than men, the soldier would then be able to lodge a conscientious objection and either be allowed to reject the mission or to resign honourably and with full pay and benefits. However that is treated as refusal to obey orders, and punished severely – just as if the Nuremberg Tribunal had never sat.

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  37. “Well, when he Iraqis were working on nukes, the heavy lifting in research there wasn’t really done by anyone born in Iraq”.

    The same could be said about Americans with reference to the Manhattan Project.

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  38. However, to claim that Shia militia members, supported by Iran, were NOT running wild in Iraq is probably willful ignorance on the part of the author.

    Exactly. Probably every British soldier who died in Iraq through enemy action was killed by Shia militiamen. It does not make those militias bad per se, but it is a fact worth remembering.

    It is weird that Mr Giraldi wants to pretend that this is not the case.

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  39. “But if you go into the military, you put your life at risk. Don’t come crying to me when that risk comes to fruition.

    “Especially if you die in some faraway nation where we have no business being”.

    That’s illogical. People join the armed forces to defend their country, not to attack nations that have done nothing to deserve it and kill innocent civilians.

    We need some mechanism whereby members of the armed forces can refuse to participate in such illegal adventures.

    Or, if that’s too difficult, we need some honest politicians.

    Nah, that’s impossible. We need some mechanism whereby members of the armed forces can refuse to participate in such illegal adventures.

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  40. cui bono is pretty simple at this point. Israeli hardliners want Iran atomized like Iraq. To some Iraq looks like a disaster, to others it is a great success in breaking up a barrier to Israel’s ‘clean break’….
    I expect the mountains of propaganda and ‘bad intelligence’ concas

    If cui bono is the deciding factor then the Iranian lobby was responsible for the Iraq War.

    They benefited the most, easily.

    The truth is more complicated as it always is. There were hundreds of motivations for the war and innumerable parties pushing for it.

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  41. “One innovation, for example, was zero metal content pressure plate IEDs”.

    Would they be anything like the wooden land mines the Russians were using in 1941?

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  42. On the other hand, no agreement seems like handing the next neo-con-in-chief a free pass to initiate Bibi’s desired result -

    imo US Congress nixing the deal is the best thing that could happen, for USA, long-term, and Iran, which, again imo would make a better ally to USA than Izzies, and also a stabilizing force in region. Iran is capable of cooperating with KSA, imo.

    The more money Izzies pump into sabotaging the deal the bigger the billboard is that says “ISRAEL WRECKED A PEACE [sic] DEAL.”

    At least in some corners of the world, and maybe in the USA, this will be seen as a bad thing. It will attach a flower-like fragrance to brand Izzie.

    Congresspersons who stopped and smelled those Izzie flowers will likewise come away stinking — as Germany, Italy, France, England, Russia, China trade with Iran and US economy fails.

    The arrows of that economic failure will point to Bibi and the Izzies.

    Americans will suffer.
    That’s what it’s going to take to pull out the Izzie stink-flower from the USA landscape. If it’s just an economic collapse, and it gets the Izzies out of US, it’s a small price to pay and far less than a just god would impose.

    If the Iran deal is approved, Iran will be under much too much scrutiny and USISrael will cheat — they’ve already started to cheat. Izzies will kill Iranian scientists. Not much will really change for the people of Iran: as long as a ‘deal’ is in place, the Iranian government will have to be on high alert. This means that the Iranian people will not have the freedom of movement to reform their government to their preferences since both the Iranian people and their government will have to adopt a defensive posture against AngloZionist intrusions and subversive efforts.

    I urge congress to vote against the deal. It’s the least-onerous, best chance I can see to liberate USA from the Izzie strangle-hold.

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  43. Why don’t the two of you read what I actually wrote? I was referring to the urban legend about Iranian Revolutionary Guardsmen running around in large numbers doing supplying and training. Yes, I do know about the Shi’ite militias but that is a separate issue, isn’t it?

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  44. Thanks.

    The deep pockets are true enough. However, knowing how they approach membership for one-off or special projects, and the estimated “normal” budgets (even adjusted for growth), ex-special projects, seem incapable of meeting what I ballpark the last two years worth of spending. I cannot be sure of course, but the simple conclusion I am getting is that things do not add up.

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  45. “The democratically elected government, which rules through the consent of the people, sent those soldiers to Iraq”.

    For some values of “democratically elected” and “consent”.

    As I recall, New Labour with Tony Blair as its leader polled rather lower in winning the British general election than the Nazi party did with Hitler as its leader. Was it 24 percent? If Blair had a democratic mandate, so did Hitler.

    And what about the 1 million people who marched through London to protest against the decision to invade Iraq? Blair utterly ignored them. Yet when a few hundred agitators get up on their hind legs in Russia, Ukraine, or Armenia, suddenly that’s a popular uprising.

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  46. “Hezbollah operatives”? I think you are trying to give the impression that members of the armed Lebanese movement known as “Hezbollah” were fighting American forces in Iraq. There is in fact a political party in Iraq, called the “Harkat Hizb-Allah fi’l ‘Iraq” or Hezbollah Movement in Iraq. According to the Wikipedia article on it, “[i]t is not affiliated with the Lebanese group Hezbollah or other groups using the name,” and I have seen no mention that it has an armed militia associated with it. Now, would you like to provide the rest of us with a link to some credible source substantiating your claim that “Hezbollah operatives” who were “absolutely responsible for the deaths of American soldiers” have at any time been “captured by US forces inside Iraq”?

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  47. I vehemently disagree with the Iraq War and I do not agree with the vast majority of government policies, but I also have the humility to recognise that it is not my choice and that I have a duty.
    If the people allow the government to send the soldiers off to pointlessly die then the least the people can do is support those soldiers.

    Your statement is morally obtuse.

    Which are you first, Deduction:

    1. Are you your own moral agent?
    Did somebody hog-tie you to a gun and force you to enlist in the voluntary military?
    Did someone program your brain so that the only option you had was to follow policies you do not agree with?
    Does this phrase ring any bells: “I was just following orders.”

    2. Are you a member of “the people” who “allow the government” to send you to kill other people’s children, or are you a robot programmed — “duty-grammed” — to pointlessly kill other people’s children?
    What did you do about those government policies that you disagree with?
    YOU acquiesced to carry them out, with extreme prejudice.

    Is your argument that YOU, who hold the gun, aim it, fire it, don’t have a choice whether or not to kill other people’s children in wars and policies that you disagree with,

    but WE who write, lobby, call, research, argue, contribute, organize, and rail against government policies that we disagree with, at the risk of careers etc. that we might have, or at the opportunity cost of careers foregone in our choice to fight against immoral government policies, are somehow culpable for your acts to the extent that we should support your acts of murder — the very thing we are fighting against?

    If you refused to enlist and fire the gun, Deduction, those government policies would have no way of being implemented, just as the head of a criminal gang would be nowhere without his hired guns.

    Hell no I don’t support you or any military apparatchik.

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  48. troglodyte

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  49. Would they be anything like the wooden land mines the Russians were using in 1941

    Haha, it is a funny point you make but it doesn’t really negate mine.

    I absolutely know, as does anyone who went to Afghanistan as part of a military force, that the development and countering of IEDs were highly innovative endeavours and were treated as vital ground in the campaign by all involved.

    Dr Giraldi does not seem to know this. For a subject matter expert this is bizarre.

    To be honest, I’m loving this, as it is rare that I have a degree of actual knowledge and expertise that allows me to know one hundred percent for sure that a well-respected journalist, especially one whom I respect, has no clue.

    Sorry Dr Giraldi but please do not write that IED design was a simple process again.

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  50. If cui bono is the deciding factor then the Iranian lobby was responsible for the Iraq War.

    This is your brain on Deduction- reasoning.

    By your logic, Benjamin Netanyahu, http://www.c-span.org/video/?c4501196/netanyahu-iran-regime-change

    Richard Perle, Michael Ledeen, the Kagans, Doug Feith, Bill Kristol are the Iran Lobby.

    And in what way is having your nation’s economy strangled, its young as well as older, more expert scientists murdered, its nation flooded with refugees from Iraq AND Afghanistan, “benefiting most?”

    If that’s the case, Americans should be doing everything in their power to foment war in Texas, California, Colorado and Arizona so that immigrants will flee back to Mexico.
    Do you think the citizens of TX, CA, CO, AZ would agree?

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  51. Hi Sam

    I recall Ari Ben Menasche blowing the whistle on Israeli intelligence laundering some portion of their share of the Iran-Contra slush-fund money through AIPAC in his ‘Profits of War’ … were you perchance looking at a case of leopards seldom shed their spots, likely the sums will never add up, would be my take -

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  52. I doubt that the EU or Japan would “break ranks”. There is a scene from the movie “Patton” where Field Marshall Montgomery is upset at the American Generals because they don’t seem to be taking him seriously, and Monty’s aide reminds him, “But sir, they are paying the bills.” I don’t think the pragmatism of England, or the rest of Europe, has been reduced any since then.

    I so wish that EU would “break ranks”, then we could say, “Fine. NATO is no more. We’re taking our troops and our stuff and we’re going home.” Wouldn’t that be great! An instant influx of cash into our economy. Cash that used to go to Europe. And, at no extra charge, a ready made, highly trained, influx of instant skilled labor. Why, with all that, we could, uh, I know, fix the fing infrastructure. Nah!
    In the meantime, Brussels has 2 choices: 1. outlay a great big pile of cash to replace the military that just walked. And since this is the EU, each country’s military will be proportionate to their individual economies… Well, who do you think the EU frets about more, Iran or a fully re-armed Germany?
    choice 2: put on kneepads and book the next flight to Moscow. But that would be just trading one bully for another. The Devil you know and all.

    The same with Japan, only instead of kneepads and Moscow, it would be kneepads and Beijing.

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  53. Ronald Thomas West – anus, looks like an asterisk.

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  54. You are confusing IED design with delivery and trigger mechanisms for IEDs. Of course IED design has always been and remains simple rather than “sophisticated,” for the simple reason that “unsophisticated” insurgents and irregulars have to use them. The usual counter-measure against IEDs, including in Iraq, is the unsophisticated method of bomb-sniffing dogs. Your reference to Afghanistan is especially ironic since if you knew as much about IEDs as you claim, you would know that the US supplied the Afghan insurgents with IEDs in the 1980s to use against the Russians. Mr. Giraldi’s point is valid: there was no need for Iraqi insurgents to use Iranian “designs” in making and using IEDs against American forces.

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  55. And what about the 1 million people who marched through London to protest against the decision to invade Iraq? Blair utterly ignored them

    It was a big march, but that is a small fraction of the British population. Furthermore it is to render the word British meaningless to term many of the marchers as such.

    Ultimately the pro-war camp won the argument and whatever people here say, the majority supported the war because they really believed in the moral and utopian aspect of it.

    As I recall, New Labour with Tony Blair as its leader polled rather lower in winning the British general election than the Nazi party did with Hitler as its leader. Was it 24 percent? If Blair had a democratic mandate, so did Hitler.

    Your recollection is wrong – couldn’t you have checked? It was 43.2 percent. Which added to just one of the other parties which supported it (Conservative), makes it 73.9 percent.

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  56. Yet when a few hundred agitators get up on their hind legs in Russia, Ukraine, or Armenia, suddenly that’s a popular uprising.

    Yes, the western media does love sticking it to the Ruskies. They’re the enemy du jour. It’s stupid but hardly unusual in human history.

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  57. Indeed, any British citizen who wished, in the general election of 1997, to elect a party that would not launch illegal unprovoked wars of aggression, would have been unable to do so. Only three parties – Labour, the Conservatives, and perhaps the Liberal Democrats – had any practical chance of gaining power or even a share of power. And all of them were, and still are, not just willing but positively enthusiastic about aggression. They rarely saw an opportunity of bombing a defenceless foreign country that they didn’t like.

    Democracy, as we practice it, doesn’t look quite so wonderful when you remember that it makes every citizen – whether he voted for the governing party or not, indeed whether he voted at all or not – jointly responsible for all acts of the government. Thus all British citizens became war criminals in 2003 – even those who vociferously protested against it. Yet no British citizen had an opportunity to vote for a party that would not participate in such a war!

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  58. They don’t care, to them if you wear that uniform you deserve to die. Most of what passes for reasoning among this lot is just a variation of the rapist who exclaims “she had it coming because of the way she dressed”.

    It’s quite obvious here. Not a shred of humanity. Cheney and Rummy have nothing on them.

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  59. “Probably every British soldier who died in Iraq through enemy action was killed by Shia militiamen”.

    So you are alleging that the Iraqi armed forces failed to kill a single British soldier? And that Iraqi militias also failed to kill a single British soldier?

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  60. The crazies have arrived…

    …but to repeat my post which you completely avoided.

    I am humble enough to recognise my own limitations. I am humble enough to serve.

    I did not serve without questioning but I recognise my place in a much larger society and the fact that I have a duty to submit to the general will.

    If everyone was a mentally deranged egomaniac who decides that it was their own particular conception of the truth or the highway then nothing would ever get done, nothing would be achieved and we would live in a hobbesian war of all against all.

    Certainly I can object and protest but in my previous role I had given up that ability, temporarily, in order to serve.

    Of course, as I said before, there are limits, but I was given lawful orders by my legitimate government. And I value that process, my country and my society more than I value my opinion.

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  61. Actually you implied that, after all Shia Militias most certainly used IEDs.

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  62. is there an argument in that one word, RTW?

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  63. Oh, codswallop.

    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/us-sees-new-weapon-in-iraq-iranian-efps/

    “But the argument about Iranian involvement in Iraq was itself logically inconsistent, something that Crocker and Petraeus should have understood. The Iraqi insurgency in the period 2004-2006 was largely Sunni and hostile to Iran. That the Iranians would be supplying the Sunnis or that the Sunnis would have sought such aid was implausible.”

    This will be news to the Iranian-aligned Mahdi Army and Muqtada Sadr, who were running a parallel insurgency in Baghdad, Najaf, and Basrah.

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  64. Did Iranian Weapons Kill Americans? Another phony argument against a deal with Iran | Council for the National Interest
    says:
    • Website     Show CommentNext New Comment

    […] Originally published in the Unz Review. […]

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  65. the crazies never left and they read every word of your comment.

    it is still morally obtuse.

    building highways is vastly different from killing people in a war that is illegitimate.

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  66. Pardon me for not elucidating the term in reference to yourself, but now I’ll spell it out for you, it was an insult: T_R_O_G_L_O_D_Y_T_E

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2015/04/06/perverts-of-western-philosophy/

    ^ You’d be in good company with these (above-linked) nit-wits. My policy in regards to your anti-Semitic self is from here out one of promoting the similar idiots I write about at my blog-

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  67. Gareth Porter: Don’t Expect Much Change in Post-Vienna US Middle East Policy The well-worn mindset of senior officials and institutional interests will continue

    the most [the Obama] administration would do is to lecture Iran on what it needed to do to correct its misbehavior.

    It’s up to Iranians to figure out how they should behave.

    As Deduction has been implying, US policies are such that doing one’s patriotic duty is morally confusing.

    As others on this thread have pointed out, US is over there, They are not over HERE.

    As an American I have neither the ability nor the right to change Iranian behavior.
    I have the obligation — as Deduction insisted — to try to shape American government behavior/policies.

    From this troglodyte’s limited and humble perspective, I believe that getting out of the way of the Izzie lobby as it takes a blunderbuss to its head is one way to begin to turn this Ship of State that is headed in an extremely dangerous and horrible direction.

    I could be wrong.
    “Troglodyte” is neither corrective nor persuasive.

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  68. Thanks for the link – lot of good quotes in it. Like this:

    The so-called Iran dossier, a small portion of which was revealed in Baghdad on Sunday, was revised heavily after officials decided it was not ready for release as planned last month. U.S. military officials in Baghdad had even scheduled a briefing for reporters only to cancel it a day later.

    Senior U.S. officials in Washington — gun-shy after the drubbing the administration took for the faulty intelligence leading to the 2003 Iraq invasion — had held back because they were unhappy with the original presentation.

    “Codswallop,” eh? Sounds like that’s exactly the word to describe the claims made in the eight year old story you linked to.

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  69. We have an all voluntary military. Use you head DON’T volunteer.

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  70. Should read…your head….

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  71. troglodyte

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  72. CBS throwing shade on the Bush administration in the run-up to an election? Who’d a thunk it? Subtract the CBS editorializing.

    http://musingsoniraq.blogspot.com/2011/07/how-iran-used-explosively-formed.html

    Note that EFPs were introduced in the Shia areas, not the Sunni that Giraldi claims. The Shiite Badr Brigade was working closely with Quds Force Iranians.

    “In the summer and fall of 2005, the Coalition began publicly complaining about Iranian assistance to militants, and especially about EFPs. In June, the Pentagon claimed Iran was sending EFPs into Iraq. (1) The next month, a large shipment of the devices was captured in Diyala. The Pentagon then claimed that the weapon was behind the May death of the ten British soldiers in Basra. That led U.S. Ambassador to Iraq Zalmay Khalizad and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to tell the press that Tehran was interfering in Iraq. The U.S. military also found two high-quality videos of how to build EFPs, which were just like CDs captured by Israel from Hezbollah in Lebanon. That set off speculation by the Americans that the Lebanese group was working within Iraq, which they had been since 2003. In September, Sadrist cleric, and breakaway Mahdi Army commander Sheikh Ahmad Majid al-Fartusi was arrested for carrying out attacks upon the British in Basra, which included EFPs. By October, the English were also chiming in, accusing the Iranian Revolutionary Guards and Hezbollah of providing EFPs to the Mahdi Army in southern Iraq.

    The man delivering EFPs to Iraq was Abu Sheibani. He was a former commander in the Badr Brigade, who was in charge of their operations in Baghdad during the 1990s. In 2005, he had around 280 men under his command broken up into 17 cells. Some of them had received training in Lebanon from Hezbollah. They were not only responsible for shipping weapons to Iraq, but for sending Iraqis to Iran for training. Sheibani also conducting some attacks upon Coalition forces himself. He was told by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards to contact as many groups as possible that were opposed to the occupation, and get them to carry out attacks in return for armaments. At its height, there were EFP cells stretching from Basra in the south to Kirkuk in the north where Shiite Turkmen and Arabs were used. Sheibani was eventually put on a waned list by Baghdad, and he ended up fleeing to Iran. While Sadr and his Mahdi Army were usually blamed for carrying out attacks upon the Coalition, it was actually older Badr Brigade elements that were arming them. The Badr Brigade was created by Iran during the Iran-Iraq War as part of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards, and fought against Saddam Hussein. They were therefore more trusted than Sadr or any of his militiamen, who Tehran considered unpredictable, and it was they who early on were delivering weapons into Iraq.

    In the summer, the use of EFPs suddenly dived. From July to October 2007, there were 50% less attacks using the devices. This was part of a larger cut back in operations by Special Groups. The cause of the decrease was Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki who told Iran that it needed to stop its weapons shipments because they were not only leading to more American casualties, but also Shiite on Shiite violence. He was referring to the Badr Brigade and the Mahdi Army, which were carrying on a running war against each other across southern Iraq. By December, Iraq’s Foreign Minister claimed that Iran was helping with the security situation. Tehran used the flow of weapons and money to militants as a way to control them. When the Surge started at the beginning of 2007, they vastly increased the number of EFPs heading to Iraq. By the middle of the year, when these weapons were being used by Iran’s allies against each other, it rolled back some of its support in order to put a damper on the internecine violence.

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  73. The Persian Letters, Montesquieu:

    In Letter 11, Usbek tells the story of the troglodytes . . .

    [The troglodytes/ the harem] have a king who was unable to control them [so] they killed him in order to “reform their natural wickedness.” They decided “each one would look after his own interests exclusively, without considering those of others”. [sounds like the way Andrew Bacevich delicately describes Israelis as "working for their own interests"]

    This barbarian state would soon lead to their collapse for they were unable to fully provide for themselves on their own. The alliances that were broken, the lies, deceit, and stealing were not punished because the bigger man always won, literally. Having no responsibility to anyone or anything left many behind, killing much of the race.

    There was a time when the Troglodytes were very sick and a doctor came to help them, but they refused to pay for his services because they were not forced to by anyone. When disease struck again the Doctor refused to come back and help, leaving many more to die.

    [Eventually], the entire race of Troglodytes [died] save two, who “understood what justice was; they loved virtue” (p.58). They resurrected the race and gave it structure to make it beneficial to all people. [note to Sam Shama: find these two non-zionist Israelis!]

    . . . Troglodytes show that civilization needs to have structure and a way to determine laws, punishments, and other factors of the society’s way of life.

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  74. Good thing Dog added the “through enemy action” qualifier as I believe a number of Brits were blown away in US airstrikes.

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  75. All funds are fungible! If the U.S. Congress votes U.S. tax dollars to supply Israel with armaments and delivery systems, nuclear research and development, this allows Israel funds to educate and provide universal health care for its citizens and funds to be used to build settlements upon captured Palestinian land. Furthermore, Israel receives annually $1 billion in cash U.S. tax dollars for whatever Israel decides it needs! Remember the headlines in the “State of the Onion” publication — Israel has spent $250 million or more used to bomb and “mow the lawn” [as explained by Israeli military] in the 5-6 mile wide and 26 mile long Gaza strip. The headline reads “Israel needs money to replace bombs used against 1.8 million Gaza population — U.S. Congress vote $280 million tax dollars for Israel.” When I read the headline, I remember thinking I bet this was written to be satirical but sadly the U.S. Congress will use our needed tax dollars to fund the massacre. Congress voted $286 million several days later.

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  76. British soldiers wearing Arab dress tried to blast a prison cell to free some hardcore poisonous men and women .They got busted .They were spotted and captured . British government was not happy .
    The hardcore poisonous British men and women wearing Arab dresses were earlier captured while they were in the middle of an unprovoked assault and on unarmed civilians in a popular Friday market . The British plan was part of Salvadorian plan that was to instigate civil war . There was no other explanation .

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  77. I have no problem with POTUS hitting back at Taliban in Afghanistan after 9/11

    So you still buy this story about the Taliban having something to do with the 9/11 attacks.

    Did you ever ask yourself what their motive was?

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  78. From the Oxford:

    troglodyte |ˈträgləˌdīt|
    noun
    (especially in prehistoric times) a person who lived in a cave.
    • a hermit.
    • a person who is regarded as being deliberately ignorant or old-fashioned.
    DERIVATIVES
    troglodytic |ˌträgləˈditik| adjective.
    troglodytism |-dīˌtizəm| noun
    ORIGIN late 15th cent.: via Latin from Greek trōglodutēs, alteration of the name of an Ethiopian people, influenced by trōglē ‘hole.’

    I’m rather referring to yourself as the archaic (lives in a cave) by way of metaphor as insult. This insult refers to a certain mentality that is cloistered from surrounding reality … for instance René Descartes excused his cruelties by positing animals cannot be conscious of pain when pursuing his hobby of vivisection:

    http://ronaldthomaswest.com/2015/04/08/rene-descartes/

    Your cold auto-reflex mentality would seem to share Descartes’ emotional voids and moral inversions…

    And with that, goodnight.

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  79. “Your recollection is wrong – couldn’t you have checked? It was 43.2 percent”.

    Which, multiplied by the turnout percentage of 71.3%, gives an overall percentage of 30.8%. Less than one-third of the electorate is hardly a convincing majority. I hope you will not argue that it is only the percentage of those who voted that counts; otherwise, if only 100 people vote out many millions, a party that got 10 votes could claim 50% support.

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  80. “It was a big march, but that is a small fraction of the British population. Furthermore it is to render the word British meaningless to term many of the marchers as such”.

    It’s ridiculous to suppose that more than 1 million people would travel to London and march on a given day for any cause, no matter how important. Apart from anything else, the transport infrastructure would not allow such a huge movement of people; nor would there be physical space for them to assemble.

    As for your suggestion that some of the marchers were not British, what on earth are you talking about? Do you think that hundreds of thousands of people flew in from Malaysia or Paraguay to take part in a march about British government policy?

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  81. A statement by CBS about the louche circumstances of the release of the report you tout is somehow “throwing shade” in February 2007 on a lame duck President? That’s a stretch – lawyers would call it “impeaching your own witness,” and it doesn’t help your credibility, fella. Also a stretch: quoting a poorly sourced, four year old entry on a blog by a school teacher in Berkeley, California in order to buttress your claims that Iran is the eminence grise behind IED attacks on American servicemen there. You’ll have to do better than that, but I don’t think you can.

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  82. Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan.
    Taliban was protecting him.
    That is not speculation: it is fact.

    We can engage in all sorts of speculations about 9/11.
    I know there are too many unanswered questions.
    But when the planes hit and 3,000 odd Americans and others were killed, you can’t expect POTUS to do nothing.

    It is not a court of law, that you have to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt, after months of testimony.
    There was a tenuous connection of people based in Afghanistan to 9/11.
    Bin Laden is not fiction.
    He existed.
    He publicly announced he would hit Americans back for the insult of basing troops in Saudi Arabia.
    For siding withe Israel in their oppression of Palestinians.
    There is fog of war.
    You can’t be sure of anything when bullets fly.
    When events like that happen, you have no idea what comes next.

    Unlike Iraq, there was some plausible justification for hitting Afghanistan.
    No justification for staying there for 10+ years.
    Hit’em hard, destroy stuff, then leave.
    Sorry, but when US mainland is attacked, you can’t debate who did it for the next X years.
    You have to show everyone that there will be Hell to pay.

    Completely different from the illegal invasion of Iraq, which had absolutely no connection to 9/11. None.
    That’s how I see it.
    You disagree: fine with me.

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  83. I added that qualifier, because obviously I know that fact, a point which is somewhat sore. Nonetheless it is generally accepted that war is complicated and American forces were always very generous to us.

    I particularly love those Kliff bars I kept robbing!

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  84. Conspiracy theory nonsense.

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  85. As for your suggestion that some of the marchers were not British, what on earth are you talking about? Do you think that hundreds of thousands of people flew in from Malaysia or Paraguay to take part in a march about British government policy?

    No…just that British has more meaning than simply any random punter from wherever in the world who happens to reside in Britain and has a passport.

    We are a historical nation with a long and glorious history, and a unique and interesting culture. A piece of paper and residency doesn’t grant someone automatic entry to that.

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  86. Americans appear to really like poodles.

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  87. Peter Jenkins offers a modest proposal that makes a very persuasive case for US Congressional endorsement of Iran deal —

    The Next Middle East Nuclear Challenge: Israel

    The nuclear agreement with Iran opens the way to forging a nuclear-weapon-free zone (NWFZ) in the Middle East. Until now a Middle East NWFZ has had the hallmarks of a hopeless cause. It’s been all too easy for Israel to use fears aroused by Iran’s nuclear program to oppose the notion. The July 14 agreement deprives Israel of that excuse.

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  88. Don’t kid yourself about NATO. We want it more than they do except for maybe Poland and the Baltic States.

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  89. Are you saying that if EU and Japan break ranks, we are defenseless?

    Not sue what your point is here? If you think Iran is not a threat as do most of the posters, then why do you even have sanctions on them? Who said anything about defending against Iran, we are just recognizing the facts on the ground – nobody else thinks Iran is a threat to them and see n0o reason for sanctions.

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  90. Israel and its satellite, the US, initiated the Iraq-Iran war for the exact reason – Iran was becoming too radical and too strong. This war worked out well for the instigators, not so well for Iraq and Iran. Then 20 years later, Israel and the US forgot what they did and imbalanced the Middle East by destroying Iraq, the natural counterweight to Iran. Iraq was destroyed to take revenge on Saddam for supporting the Palestinians and because Likudnic crazies decided that a better balance of Sunnis v. Shiites is 0:0, that is, destroy them both. Now, Israel and its satellite the US need to destroy Iran to re-balance Middle East again.

    The problem was never the nuclear weapons that Iran may or may not have, the problem is that Iran does not resemble Iraq yet. The US has not finished the job given to it – the job is Israel’s unchallengeable domination of the Middle East. Iran is a dormant danger for Israel as long as it exists as an organized society.

    The anti-Iran propaganda will stop only when Iran is made into Iraq.

    It is much more interesting what will happen to those who hope to profit from the current situation: Turkey and Saudi Arabia.

    • Agree: Tom Welsh
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  91. Hi Ron
    Yes its becoming increasingly clear that obtaining financials are not meant to be a straightforward process nor bereft of consequences for the inquirer.

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  92. Giraldi is a shill for Muslims. Read up on his background.

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  93. 1 “At the request of the MoD, British media obscured the faces of the two captured men. The two sides give wildly differing accounts of events, but it is not disputed that they had been sitting in a car outside the police station in Arabic dress. They were heavily armed and had an impressive array of surveillance equipment with them. It is not impossible that one or both of the men are not British. Special forces from Australia and New Zealand, for example, often work closely with the SAS. They could even be “civilian contractors” of the kind hired by the CIA, usually ex-special forces. But it is their mission that is more significant.”
    Independent( UK)

    2
    According to the BBC’s Galpin, reporting for BBC Radio 4 (9/20/05, 18 hrs news script), Iraqi police sources in Basra told the BBC the “two British men were arrested after failing to stop at a checkpoint. There was an exchange of gunfire. The men were wearing traditional Arab clothing, and when the police eventually stopped them, they said they found explosives and weapons in their car…It’s widely believed the two British servicemen were operating undercover.”

    http://www.rawstory.com/news/2005/CAUGHT_RED__0923.html

    3 According to the Washington Post (9/20/05), “Iraqi security officials on Monday variously accused the two Britons they detained of shooting at Iraqi forces or trying to plant explosives.” Reuters (9/19/05) cited police, local officials and other witnesses who confirmed that “the two undercover soldiers were arrested after opening fire on Iraqi police who approached them.” Officials said that “the men were wearing traditional Arab headscarves and sitting in an unmarked car.”

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  94. Well according to S2C it (anti-sem) is a virtue forgotten, in much need of revival for the resurrection of the body and soul. So there is that spiritual thirst, you see.. :-)

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  95. “SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: Mr. Adelson, who gave large amounts of money to the Gingrich campaign. And much of Mr. Adelson’s casino profits that go to him come from this casino in Macau.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Which says what?

    SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: Which says that, obviously, maybe in a roundabout way, foreign money is coming into an American campaign — political campaigns.

    JUDY WOODRUFF: Because of the profits at the casinos in Macau?

    SEN. JOHN MCCAIN: Yes. That is a great deal of money.”

    http://reason.com/archives/2012/06/18/sheldon-adelsons-foreign-money-and-john

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  96. I thought that the IED lie had been somewhat effectively exposed when it was pointed out that the Iranians were unlikely to use English to document their weapons.

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  97. And according to the British hard right Propaganda Organ, The Daily Express,

    They are still at it.

    “SAS dress as ISIS fighters in undercover war on jihadis”

    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/595439/SAS-ISIS-fighter-Jihadis

    Just who are you fuck-wits?

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  98. Sure, sure–it wasn’t like the Iraq war was a big election issue and portraying it in a certain way hurt Republicans. No incentive at all for CBS to inject some editorial comments into a story. The Army stood by its reports.

    Giraldi made this claim:

    But the argument about Iranian involvement in Iraq was itself logically inconsistent, something that Crocker and Petraeus should have understood. The Iraqi insurgency in the period 2004-2006 was largely Sunni and hostile to Iran. That the Iranians would be supplying the Sunnis or that the Sunnis would have sought such aid was implausible.

    And hangs much of his article on this.

    Shows the Mahdi army very nearly overrunning the coalition HQ in Najaf in April, 2004. That was a small element of the battles going on in the Shiite areas from Baghdad down to Basra. Clue: the insurgents weren’t Sunnis. There were parallel insurgencies going on, both Shiite and Sunni. The Shiites and Iranian allies had most of the EFPs.

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  99. Bin Laden was hiding in Afghanistan.
    Taliban was protecting him.
    That is not speculation: it is fact.

    Okay, we are talking about September of 2001, right? At this point in time, what proof existed that Bin Laden had anything to do with the attacks? The position of the Taliban was that they would not hand over Bin Laden if there was no proof provided of his guilt. Afghanistan had no extradition treaty with the United States, but even if they did, you can’t extradite somebody without providing any proof.

    We can engage in all sorts of speculations about 9/11.

    Well, sure you can, you can say that Santa Claus did it. But since when is pure speculation a reason to start a large-scale war?

    What specifically is the proof that Bin Laden had anything to do with the 9/11 attacks?

    That is actually two questions, by the way. In September of 2001, what was the proof of this? And second question, currently, in 2015, what proof is there of this?

    I know there are too many unanswered questions.
    But when the planes hit and 3,000 odd Americans and others were killed, you can’t expect POTUS to do nothing.

    Well, this whole “you can’t expect the POTUS to do nothing” is typical warmongering rhetoric as far as I can see. “They attacked us”, so we have to do something, except that the “something” that “must be done” does not even include having an investigation of who the “they” that attacked us were! Isn’t that extraordinary? Does that not give you pause?

    It is not a court of law, that you have to establish guilt beyond reasonable doubt, after months of testimony.

    When the Taliban asked for proof, the U.S. government could not produce ANYTHING. Nothing. Squat. Your rhetoric about court of law is really beside the point. A case does not reach court if there is no evidence in the first place.

    Unlike Iraq, there was some plausible justification for hitting Afghanistan.
    No justification for staying there for 10+ years.
    Hit’em hard, destroy stuff, then leave.

    Hit ‘em hard, destroy stuff, then leave…. in other words, just conduct some terrorism there, on people who had nothing to do with the original terrorist act, and then go home. You seem to advocate just aimless violence.

    How about advocating an actual investigation of the crime??? When did that occur?

    Sorry, but when US mainland is attacked, you can’t debate who did it for the next X years.
    You have to show everyone that there will be Hell to pay.

    Avery, have you ever heard of “false flag terrorism”? That is the basic idea that a party that wants to start a war will actually conduct a terrorist operation and frame somebody else for it — false flag. There is a long history of this. You think that if there is a terrorist attack and it superficially appears that certain people did it, one should just assume so without any serious investigation???

    The reason being that when the U.S. is attacked, you have to show that there will be hell to pay blah blah.

    So you attack somebody without even having a proper investigation of who did the crime.

    Completely different from the illegal invasion of Iraq, which had absolutely no connection to 9/11. None.

    Well, this whole mythology that the war in Afghanistan was some kind of “good war” or justified and the Iraq war was an illegal war of aggression is just that, mythology. Both were illegal and unjustified, as all the wars that the U.S. has conducted since 9/11 have been illegal and unjustified.

    Now…

    Bin Laden is not fiction.
    He existed.

    Okay, so he existed. Is that proof that he orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?

    He publicly announced he would hit Americans back for the insult of basing troops in Saudi Arabia.

    Is that proof that Bin Laden orchestrated the 9/11 attacks?

    Is there any proof of this?

    • Agree: Orville H. Larson
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  100. Indeed. On a related tangent, I’m reading Phillip Agee’s account of the CIA’s 1960 overthrow of Ecuador’s government .. his detail of the operations invested in manipulating institutions and result closely mirror the symptoms we see in Ecuador 55 years after the fact (today.) The want of imagination and vacant desire to pursue new method taking into account the damage caused by previous incarnations of the same animal, sadly, point to a dead-end evolution.

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  101. And you’ve taken that freeze frame and constructed an entire Hollywood movie around out it…

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  102. Only if all of the IEDs found came with English manuals. Something that I’ve certainly never heard of…you guys are so strange, desperate to paint Iran as some sort of saint country, not even willing to countenance that much of what they do is bad.

    Iran is your Madonna.

    You do realise that we’re not going to war with Iran, right? That Netanyahu”s bad cop bluster is irrelevant on the world stage?

    You also realise that the Iranian government is a thoroughly oppressive regime which is not appreciated by the country’s best and brightest?

    I have a lot of sympathy for their actions but Iran is not Switzerland. And you don’t need to belive that it is to argue against war with them. Or even for an alliance

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  103. Seems like what special forces do….God, knows if it’s actually true…

    For one its reported in the Daily Express!

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  104. “Americans appear to really like poodles”.

    Evidently more than they like bears! 8-)

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  105. Damn straight. NATO is a wonderful way of making American foreign policy look as if it is shared by all of “the West”. Of course, any nation whose leaders like money is likely to follow the US line most of the time, but there might be some delays and confusion. NATO guarantees military discipline and immediate obedience. “When I say ‘Jump’, you JUMP – and on the way up, you ask, ‘How high, Sir?’”

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  106. “But when the planes hit and 3,000 odd Americans and others were killed, you can’t expect POTUS to do nothing”.

    What a strange thing to say. Surely he should have tried to find out who was responsible, and if he found reliable evidence he could have proceeded against them. In fact it is pretty certain that Bin Laden was not responsible in any way for 9/11; he just approved of the attack after it happened. For this expressed opinion (and expressing opinion is one of those wonderful rights that Americans are so keen on) he was supposedly murdered in cold blood.

    However, returning to what you wrote (as quoted above). If “POTUS” was obliged to lash out and inflict massive havoc and genocide because 3,000 Americans and others were killed, what do you think the Iraqis and other independent people were obliged to do after the USA launched an illegal unprovoked war of aggression against Iraq and killed 2.8 million people? If the deaths of 3,000 can only be avenged by killing nearly 3 million, the arithmetic is simple. Revenge for Iraq is due, and would involve the deaths of at least 3 billion Americans.

    That arithmetic is one of the very good reasons why Christ taught that one should forgive one’s enemies, in place of the traditional Jewish tradition of “an eye for an eye”. It’s just a shame that those who control the USA, although they profess to be Christians, don’t behave like followers of Christ. To paraphrase Gore Vidal, their reversal of the principles of the New Testament is so perfect as almost to suggest that they have read it. But then their allegiance may be more to the Jewish traditions.

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  107. “Is there any proof of this?”

    In a word, no. But that never stopped John Wayne.

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  108. That arithmetic is one of the very good reasons why Christ taught that one should forgive one’s enemies, in place of the traditional Jewish tradition of “an eye for an eye”. It’s just a shame that those who control the USA, although they profess to be Christians, don’t behave like followers of Christ.

    Classic concern trolling. You’re not a real Christian unless you never stand up for yourself, you leave your door unlocked for your house to be robbed, you let illegal immigrants flood your country and you doom your progeny to live much, much worse lives than those you lived.

    A healthy polity forgives mistakes, but it takes action against aggressions.

    An unhealthy polity, like the one you are describing, sacrifices it’s children’s future so as to strike a feel-good moral pose now.

    What you describe is the height of inhuman selfishness. Screw your kids and leapfrog your loyalties so you can feel sanctified.

    Has there ever been a more self-absorbed, sanctimonious and stupid generation than the baby-boomers and their immediate followers?

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  109. And it gets more dangerous for America

    “Buried deep in the archives of America’s intelligence services are a series of memos, written during the last years of President George W. Bush’s administration, that describe how Israeli Mossad officers recruited operatives belonging to the terrorist group Jundallah by passing themselves off as American agents. According to two U.S. intelligence officials, the Israelis, flush with American dollars and toting U.S. passports, posed as CIA officers in recruiting Jundallah operatives — what is commonly referred to as a “false flag” operation. – See more at: http://mondoweiss.net/2012/01/bombshell-israeli-intelligence-posed-as-cia-to-recruit-terror-group-for-covert-war-on-iran#sthash.gIxS13C7.dpuf

    But Liberman says Americans are getting killed .So he joins MEK and runs UANI.

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  110. The proper response to 9/11 would have been closing the borders and deporting all non citizens and Israeli art students. Not invading another nation and murdering it’s citizens. 9/11 was a crime, not an act of war.

    But if you really wanted revenge, bombing Riyadh and Tel Aviv would have come a lot closer to getting the people behind 9/11 than blowing up some goat herders in Afghanistan.

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  111. “‘Israeli Mossad Agents Posed as CIA Spies to Recruit Terrorists to Fight Against Iran’
    Foreign Policy magazine cites CIA memos from 2007-2008 that the Mossad recruited members of Jundallah terror group to fight against Tehran; U.S. was reportedly furious with Israel and moved to limit joint intelligence programs.

    Barak Ravid Jan 13, 2012 8:54 PM

    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-mossad-agents-posed-as-cia-spies-to-recruit-terrorists-to-fight-against-iran-1.407224

    That’s what Israeli’s do to its ally.

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  112. {“If the deaths of 3,000 can only be avenged by killing nearly 3 million, the arithmetic is simple”}

    Go back and read my post again.

    Read what I wrote about Iraq specifically before you conflate everything into one unrecognizable blob.
    I specifically wrote Iraqi invasion was illegal and Iraq had zero connection to 9/11.

    Yes, I said hit Afghanistan, destroy things and leave.
    It should have been obvious I meant Taliban, their military camps, combatants, leadership, etc.
    Which is what was done in the beginning with on-the-ground help of local enemies of Taliban, the Northern Alliance.
    But Neocons decided to stay and make it another imperial project, which turned into a horrible mess like all their other projects.

    Had US left after Taliban was scattered, which if memory serves was accomplished in just a few months, things would be much different.

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  113. Has the USA left when the Taliban was (first) scattered, the Taliban would have reassembled and in six months everything would have been as it was before. Which is what is happening right now, somewhat later.

    Bush had no more reason to attack Afghanistan than to attack Iraq. To this day there is NO convincing evidence pointing to the planners and funders of 9/11, although if I had to I’d say the US government itself (or some elements of it) are the front-runners.

    Although the casualties of the Afghanistan war may be many fewer than those of the Iraq war, both were equally illegitimate and illegal. As Michael Ledeen famously stated long ago, “Every ten years or so, the United States needs to pick up some small crappy little country and throw it against the wall, just to show the world we mean business”. That is something only an arrogant racist, representing an arrogant racist nation, could ever say. The implication is clearly that the lives of foreigners don’t matter at all, as thousands of them can be killed simply “to show the world we mean business”. Very much in the same vein as your “…you can’t expect POTUS to do nothing”.

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  114. Hi Ron
    Is this the book “Inside the Company?” circa 1975?

    Very true that its only the incarnations we see. Not much changes. People get fixated on an idea they have, and pursue it with the zeal of a recent convert, only to realise rather late, the falsity or inadequacy of their original premise.

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  115. So you’re not a Christian. That’s not a problem. I have no respect, however, for people who publicly claim to be Christians while doing exactly the opposite of what Jesus Christ told his followers to do.

    And I find it heartily amusing that you attribute to “baby boomers” the principles of Christ. Actually, they are somewhat older than that.

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  116. Nasty little ad hominem attack there. Maybe I should read up on *your* background… oh wait, I can’t because you use a handle.

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  117. Damn straight.

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  118. KA, I get that you’re a left leaning Palestinian or Iranian or whatever and I think in many ways we’d get along.

    The problem is that you are really naive. That is that you hold Israel to a standard that no country could ever be held to and not fail.

    I get that they are either directly oppressing or threatening your people but it does not help you to deal with this if you fall into magical thinking.

    Israel is not an evil country nor a particularly powerful one. Using tricks when spying is not exactly unheard of. Nor is it a secret or even felt to be shameful – it is what spies do – it was a storyline on Homeland, for God’s sake!

    Don’t fall in with these Jew obsessed crazies just because they seem like they might be useful. Their foaming at the mouth nonsense only tars your cause.

    When somebody says support Palestine and a minute later blames Jews for 9/11 all they do is reduce support for Palestine.

    They lose all credibility – because what they are saying is unbelievably stupid – and thereby diminish the credibility of everything else they say.

    If you’re Iranian then you really have nothing to worry about. There will be no war with Iran. It was always just bluster and threats to make Iran do a few things differently. It might feel oppressive but it is par for the course in international politics, as it has been forever.

    Of course all those idiots claiming that there was an international all-powerful Jew conspiracy for war with Iran will conveniently forget that…

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  119. That is something only an arrogant racist, representing an arrogant racist nation, could ever say.

    Only if it is shorn of all context, and, even then, there is no racism aspect to it.

    The context is that there are countries in the world ruled by extremely oppressive governments and that smashing those governments teaches others both to treat their civilians better and to respect America when they tell them to treat their civilians better.

    Now, you can say that this is unrealistic, and I agree, but you’re guilty of magical thinking here.

    You ascribe only one motivation to a group of people when you cannot ascribe only one motivation even to one person.

    You discount all negative examples because well ‘they would say that wouldn’t they.’

    You accentuate all positive examples by taking them entirely out of context and never trying to understand why they might say such a thing.

    In short, you lack the faculties of critical thinking and this is why you get so much so wrong.

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  120. And I find it heartily amusing that you attribute to “baby boomers” the principles of Christ. Actually, they are somewhat older than that.

    The irony is of course that you interpret Christianity according to the morally posturing baby-boomer tradition, yet you acknowledge that Christianity rather predates your generation.

    A Christianity that for the first 1968 years of it’s existence bore no relation to your tepid interpretation.

    And you’re right, I’m not religious, but your illogical amuses me.

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  121. When somebody says support Palestine and a minute later blames Jews for 9/11 all they do is reduce support for Palestine.

    They lose all credibility – because what they are saying is unbelievably stupid – and thereby diminish the credibility of everything else they say.

    If you’re Iranian then you really have nothing to worry about. There will be no war with Iran. It was always just bluster and threats to make Iran do a few things differently. It might feel oppressive but it is par for the course in international politics, as it has been forever.

    Agree with every bit of this.

    Of course curtailing the power of lobbies, in and of itself is a desirable outcome, yet the propensity (among many commentators here) to find the cause of all ills that plague society, at the door of the lobbies is at least wrong-headed and reductionist, but more importantly repeats historic errors.

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  122. How dare a country defend itself from US/British invasion by whatever means at its disposal. Including help from sympathetic neighbors. With all the bitching and moaning resulting from the use of a few relatively crude IED’s in the hands of a defenseless people, imagine the hue and cry if US/British forces were to inadvertently blunder into war with a country capable of actually defending itself.

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  123. There are about a hundred allegedly oppressive regimes out there.Why is Iran your target?Because they aren’t gay friendly hedonists?They believe in Allah?(or so they say)
    It’s all propaganda from the Ziomonsters,who control our witless confused populace,as America collapses under the weight of neoliberal conservative Zionist control of the race to the bottom of human conduct and morality.
    OBL;The FBI had no tangible evidence to tie him to 9-11,other than Memri produced propaganda.And where are the interviews,that one would think would be very revealing,from his wives and children,held captive by the Pakistanis?

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  124. Jeez,the Jews don’t like it,sheesh.
    Are anti Semites born or made?
    And no,I don’t believe Zionists are born that way,its a cultural thing, they are made that way,by paranoid and hubris filled morons.

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  125. A shill for realty maybe,to combat all the shills for more stupid wars and death.
    Who are you shilling for?America has had enough Zionist shills to last US a 1000 years.

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  126. As a Palestinian and Iranian and a human being , I don’t need your reflective thoughtful garbage as advice.
    The world isn’t obsessed with Jews The Jews are abusing the rest .

    Iran doesn’t need your assurances that there won’t be any war or your threat that there would be war.

    Following 911, it was the Zio who wanted to blame them ( Palestinian) associated them with 911, and irrespective of any links ,they demanded to take the fight to them .Those Zio include even person like Friedman .

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  127. In my previous comment, I wrote:

    “……at the door of the lobbies is at least wrong-headed and reductionist, but more importantly repeats historic errors.”

    When I meant to write :
    “at the door of the Jewish population is at least wrong-headed and reductionist, but more importantly repeats historic errors.

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  128. How dare a country defend itself from US/British invasion by whatever means at its disposal. Including help from sympathetic neighbors. With all the bitching and moaning resulting from the use of a few relatively crude IED’s in the hands of a defenseless people, imagine the hue and cry if US/British forces were to inadvertently blunder into war with a country capable of actually defending itself.

    I don’t think anyone resents Iraqis or Afghans for fighting back.

    The issues are -

    1. The Iranians providing them with weapons and training.

    Something that I don’t think is hugely surprising nor damning but it probably is true.

    2. The fighting by militia and terror groups when we were working with their elected governments and local forces to try and bring some social stability and development to their countries which is when the majority of our causalities occurred.

    Having said that I don’t think anyone resents the locals for fighting us. Of course, had they not, their countries would be much nicer now..

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  129. Israel is not an evil country nor a particularly powerful one.

    200 nukes say otherwise.

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  130. There are about a hundred allegedly oppressive regimes out there.Why is Iran your target

    Iran is not my target. I am merely pointing out its faults. I very much admire a lot about Iran, its religion and its history.

    If the so-called ‘ziomasters’ lol are in charge in America then why is America now entering an alliance with Iran in Syria?

    The problem is that when the facts prove you conspiracy nuts wrong, you don’t change your minds, you just spin another layer deeper into your conspiracy.

    What will it be now? Iran is a Zionist occupied government? Shias are secret Jews? All of this supposed bad blood has been a secret pact to distract from theor joint war against the poor (1 billion plus) Sunnis? Or just that they both drink the same babies blood and have decided to go to the bar together ?

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  131. Some excellent points made ,Mr Revulsky,

    Our FBI data base on terrorism showed no evidence linking Bin Laden to 9-11.
    He was wanted, however, in connection to other terrorist activity, like the ” USS Cole bombing in 2000″. At least that is my understanding.

    Afghanistan was willing to” release” Bin Laden to US authorities were evidence provided to them of Bin Laden ‘s involvement in 9-11.

    None was provided.

    Why not ?

    It is not to say that Bin Laden was not involved in 9-11…there is just no “evidence” to substantiate it.

    The “rationales” provided for his involvement were at best, ad hoc, provisional, and constantly changing.

    the first rationale…..”they hate our freedom”….

    the second rationale….”resentment for our military and naval presence in Saudi Arabia”

    The third rationale….”contempt for Israeli treatment of Palestinians”

    Whether any or all of these” rationales” are actual motives for 9-11, or provide an evidentiary foundation for the attack are , in fact , two different matters.

    None of these “rationales” are ” evidence” at all. They are “alleged “motives introduced into the American consciousness, that presupposes an evidentiary “certainty “where none existed.

    This , I would say, was the first real act of the ” Terror Defrauding ” of the American People, by the “Neocons”.( that I know of )

    The introduction of “rationales”( hyperbole) as SUBSTITUTES for evidence.

    There being, in fact, no existing evidence at all.

    The psychology of Neocon” Terror Fraud” went to work at once…..

    And has been at work, ever since, “vaporizing “our solvency, our constitution, and our integrity as a Nation through defrauding us into perpetual catastrophic wars of aggression in the middle east.

    I wold have to say Mr Revulsky, that the “key” word to the “arc” of our last 13 year ” trajectory” is….Fraud.

    .

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  132. As a Palestinian and Iranian and a human being , I don’t need your reflective thoughtful garbage as advice.
    The world isn’t obsessed with Jews The Jews are abusing the rest

    Yeah, the few million Jews are abusing the whole world and the whole world is powerless in the face of the Jewish juggernaut…

    Get a clue! Just remember – when there is no war against Iran – you will know that I was right.

    And let’s be honest there won’t be, because America and Iran have been allied in Syria for the last year now. Because IS really are blood drinking genocidaires.

    You will also know how much you discredited your other arguments by pursuing this conspiratorial nonsense.

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  133. However many nukes they have, they still have far less actual power in the region than Turkey or Saudi Arabia or Iran.

    If you don’t know this then you don’t know anything about the region, and with this, I’m off.

    It’s been fun. You guys are genuinely crazy, which is cool, but I hope that you grow a sense of perspective and realise that there really is life beyond one small particular people.

    Maybe you could then focus your energy on arresting the decline and further decline of your own countries?

    I’m going to back to just reading Steve Sailer. Someone who has taught me more than anyone else I know. When I make my fortune haha he’s getting a decent percentage.

    The rest of you are just kooks.

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  134. This , I would say, was the first real act of the ” Terror Defrauding ” of the American People, by the “Neocons”.( that I know of )

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  135. Yes, ‘Inside The Company.’

    I misspoke, the coup was initiated in 1961 (not 1960) .. the CIA had done much of the engineering via agents developed in political parties, labor unions, Christian and other social groups, and moles within the several Ecuadoran government departments (not least the police, intelligence and military), toward ousting the incumbent. The successor was even worse (from CIA perspective) than what they’d just lent incredible energy to send packing. So, our 1961 taxpayers then footed the bill for the next, 1962, iteration, all the while the process was producing radicalized future elements that would require neutralizing in turn. All with a single fixation: isolating Castro, the ultimate failed policy as we most recently see demonstrated.

    It would appear, with the hindsight of the cold war behind us, this mentality had become so endemically entrenched, breaking the habit would be akin to putting the several intelligence agencies on whatever is the social prescription for methadone (noting again we see identical symptoms of CIA mischief in today’s Ecuador and I should have mentioned Venezuela as well.)

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