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9/11 Truth?
Was it an "American coup?"
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For the first time a presidential candidate, admittedly from a fringe party, is calling for a reexamination of 9/11. Jill Stein of the Green Party has recognized that exercises in which the United States government examines its own behavior are certain to come up with a result that basically exonerates the politicians and the federal bureaucracy. This has been the case since the Warren Commission report on the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, which, inter alia, failed to thoroughly investigate key players like Lee Harvey Oswald and Jack Ruby and came up with a single gunman scenario in spite of considerable evidence to the contrary.

When it comes to 9/11, I have been reluctant to enter the fray largely because I do not have the scientific and technical chops to seriously assess how buildings collapse or how a large passenger airliner might be completely consumed by a fire. In my own area, of expertise, which is intelligence, I have repeatedly noted that the Commission investigators failed to look into the potential foreign government involvement in the events that took place that day. Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan just for starters may have been involved in or had knowledge relating to 9/11 but the only investigation that took place, insofar as I can determine, was a perfunctory look at the possible Saudi role, the notorious 28 pages, which have recently been released in a redacted form.

A friend recently recommended that I take a look at a film on 9/11 that was first produced back in 2005. It is called Loose Change 9/11 and is available on Amazon Video or in DVD form as well as elsewhere in a number of updated versions. The first version reportedly provides the most coherent account, though the later updates certainly are worth watching, add significantly to the narrative, and are currently more accessible.

Loose Change is an examination of the inconsistencies in the standard 9/11 narrative, a subject that has been thoroughly poked and prodded in a number of other documentaries and books, but it benefits from the immediacy of the account and the fresh memories of the participants in the events who were interviewed by the documentary’s director Dylan Avery starting in 2004. It also includes a bit of a history lesson for the average viewer, recalling Hitler’s Reichstag fire, Pearl Harbor and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, all of which were essentially fraudulent and led to the assumption of emergency powers by the respective heads of state.

The underlying premise of most 9/11 revisionism is that the United States government, or at least parts of it, is capable of almost anything. Loose Change describes how leading hawkish Republicans were, as early as 2000, pushing to increase U.S. military capabilities so that the country would be able to fight multi-front wars. The signatories of the neocon Project for the New American Century paper observed that was needed was a catalyst to produce a public demand to “do something,” that “something” being an event comparable to Pearl Harbor. Seventeen signatories of the document wound up in senior positions in the Bush Administration.

The new Pearl Harbor turned out to be 9/11. Given developments since 9/11 itself, to include the way the U.S. has persisted in going to war and the constant search for enemies worldwide to justify our own form of Deep State government, I would, to a large extent, have to believe that PNAC was either prescient or perhaps, more diabolically, actively engaged in creating a new reality.

That is not to suggest that either then or now most federal employees in the national security industry were part of some vast conspiracy but rather an indictment of the behavior and values of those at the top of the food chain, people who are characteristically singularly devoid of any ethical compass and base their decisions largely on personal and peer group ambition.

9/11 Truthers are characteristically very passionate about their beliefs, which is part of their problem in relating to a broader public. They frequently demand full adherence to their version of what passes for reality. In my own experience of more than twenty years on the intelligence side of government I have frequently found that truth is in fact elusive, often lying concealed in conflicting narratives. This is, I believe, the strength of Loose Change as it identifies and challenges inconsistencies in the established account without pontificating and, even though it has a definite point of view and draws conclusions, it avoids going over to the dark side and speculating on any number of the wilder “what-if” scenarios.

I recommend that readers watch Loose Change as it runs through discussions of U.S. military exercises and inexplicable stand-downs that occurred on 9/11, together with convincing accounts of engineering and technical issues related to how the World Trade Center and WTC7 collapsed. Particularly intriguing are the initial eyewitness accounts from the site of the alleged downing of UA 93 in Pennsylvania, a hole in the ground that otherwise showed absolutely no evidence of a plane having actually crashed. Nor have I ever seen any traces of a plane in photos taken at the Pentagon point of impact.

The film describes the subsequent investigative failures that took place, perhaps deliberately and arranged from inside the government, and concludes that the event amounts to an “American coup” which changed the United States both in terms of its domestic liberties and its foreign policy. After watching the film, one must accept that there are numerous inconsistencies that emerge from any examination of the standard narrative promoted by the 9/11 Commission and covered up by every White House since 2001. The film calls the existing corpus of government investigations into 9/11 a lie, a conclusion that I would certainly agree with.

The consequences of 9/11 are indeed more important than the event itself. Even those who have come to accept the established narrative would have to concede that “that day of infamy” changed America for the worse, as the film notes. While the United States government had previously engaged in illegal activity directed against for suspected spies, terrorists and a variety of international criminals, wholesale surveillance of what amounts to the entire population of the country was a new development brought in by the Patriot Acts. And, for the first time, secret prisons were set up overseas and citizens were arrested without being charged and held indefinitely. Under the authority of the Military Commissions Act tribunals were established to try those individuals who were suspected of being material supporters of terrorism, “material supporters” being loosely interpreted to make arrest, prosecution and imprisonment easier.

More recently, executive authority based on the anti-terror legislation has been used to execute American citizens overseas and, under the Authorization to Use Military Force, to attack suspects in a number of countries with which the United States is not at war. This all takes place with hardly a squeak from Congress or from the media. And when citizens object to any or all of the above they are blocked from taking action in the courts by the government’s invocation of State Secrets Privilege, claiming that judicial review would reveal national secrets. Many believe that the United States has now become a precursor police state, all as a result of 9/11 and the so-called War on Terror which developed from that event.

So who benefited from 9/11? Clearly the executive branch of the government itself, which has seen an enormous expansion in its power and control over both the economy and people’s lives, but there are also other entities like the military industrial complex, the Pentagon and intelligence agencies, and the financial services sector, all of which have gained considerably from the anti-terror largesse coming from the American taxpayer. Together these entities constitute an American Deep State, which controls both government and much of the private sector without ever being mentioned or seriously contested.

Suggesting government connivance in the events of 9/11 inevitably raises the question of who exactly might have ordered or carried out the attacks if they were in fact not fully and completely the work of a handful of Arab hijackers? The film suggests that one should perhaps consider the possibility of a sophisticated “false flag” operation, by which we mean that the apparent perpetrators of the act were not, in fact, the drivers or originators of what took place. Blowing up huge buildings and causing them to pancake from within, if indeed that is what took place, is the work of governments, not of a handful of terrorists. Only two governments would have had that capability, the United States itself and also Israel, unfortunately mentioned only once in passing in the film, a state player heavily engaged in attempting to bring America into its fight with the Arab world, with Benjamin Netanyahu subsequently saying that “We are benefiting from one thing, and that is the attack on the Twin Towers and Pentagon, and the American struggle in Iraq swung American public opinion in our favor.”

To be honest I would prefer not to think that 9/11 might have been an inside job, but I am now convinced that a new 9/11 Commission is in order, one that is not run and guided by the government itself. If it can be demonstrated that the attacks carried out on that day were quite possibly set up by major figures both inside and outside the political establishment it might produce such a powerful reaction that the public would demand a reversal of the laws and policies that have so gravely damaged our republic. It is admittedly unlikely that anything like that could ever take place, but it is at least something to hope for.

 
• Category: History • Tags: 9/11, Conspiracy Theories 
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  1. Allow me to preempt the 9-11 comment onslaught by diverting to an old topic just mentioned — JFK. Something new has arisen these past few years that our corporate media ignores. From my blog:

    Jul 10, 2016 – James Files Killed JFK?

    Youtube has amazing stuff, like James Files explaining how he killed JFK. This is a long interview but very detailed and believable. The first question that arises is why this guy finally talked. This is answered in this short video that you should watch first.

    James Files may be phony, but he is a former CIA/US Army Special Ops guy, a known gangster, and if he is a fraud, he is first rate actor with great knowledge about the underworld who spent years preparing for this interview. I’m not sure what to think about his story, but he is an interesting and likable guy!

    There are websites that attempt to dismiss Files, and even one dedicated to discrediting him: James Files Fraud. But one must ask who has the time and motivation to devote a website just to counter a youtube interview? Our CIA has thousands of people employed in counter-intelligence. They have the time, resources and media contacts to refute “conspiracy theorists” like 9-11 and JFK. This includes full time “floggers” commenting on websites and maintaining the “truth” at Wikipedia.

    The Files interview is very interesting and I highly recommend watching it all, before it disappears. I recall watching a youtube interview with his prison warden that has disappeared. The warden summoned Files to his office to find out why he refused to see prominent visitors. He became convinced of Files’ detailed account of shooting JFK, and was angered to learn that FBI agents had managed to interview Files in his prison without his knowledge.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr4vgHsmNEk

  2. Only by constantly repeating to all and sundry the blatant falsehoods, frauds and meddling that are evident which absolutely contradict the official narrative of what happened can a tipping point be reached and the demands for a new, open and independent investigation be the unavoidable topic in political and social life.

    Only after a new, open and independent investigation and a ruthless holding to account of those responsible has taken place can America go about its business of being great because it is good. Good luck with that.

  3. MarkinLA says:

    Remember Korean Air flight 007. At that time the conspiracy theory was that the US and South Korean governments got the pilot to invade Soviet air space while the Space Shuttle was in the vicinity along with the electronic surveillance plane that crossed KAL007′s path in order to light up USSR air defenses and collect data.

    Whether it was true or not, the Reagan administration used it to vilify the USSR and push it’s hawkish agenda.

    9/11 doesn’t have to have been done by the government for Deep State entities to take advantage. Any preplanning of what to do afterward could also be explained by them knowing what was going to happen (ala Pearl Harbor) and letting it happen. There were plenty of intelligence reports in the commission proceedings that have indicated something was up but not acted upon. They didn’t have an admiral they could blame like they did at Pearl so the whole system was blamed which made expanding the security apparatus so much easier.

  4. Wally says:

    a must see here:
    BEST 9/11 DOCUMENTARY EVER!

    The US government’s bizarre 9/11 conspiracy theory is simply impossible.

    - The US govt. cannot change laws of physics.

    - It’s an established scientific fact that military grade nano-thermite was used in the 9/11 attack.
    Military grade nano-thermite was found in the WTC debris by the US Geological Survey & Dr. Niels Harrit of Univ. of Copenhagen, and 8 more scientists.

    - ’9/11′ has been an immensely profitable scam for various players in the US and Israel.

    - ’9/11′ provides excuses for our disastrous & mass murdering foreign policy.

    - ’9/11′ provides excuses for the theft of our constitutional rights.

    - ’9/11′ provides excuses for the enormous increase of government power.

    -see real, unbiased science professionals opinions at:

    http://www.ae911truth.org

    see their videos
    see their petition signed by thousands of real science professionals

    What Science Says About the Destruction of World Trade Center Buildings 1, 2, and 7

    http://www.beyondmisinformation.org/#beyond-misinformation

  5. Loose Change? You mean that 9/11 documentary that somehow manages to not notice all the Overseas Israelis involved at every stage of the 9/11 plot?

  6. The 9/11 conspiracy in under 5 minutes:

  7. How is the Israel-Palestine conflict related to 9/11?

    Seamlessly.

    Jeff Halper: “The Global Pacification Industry”

    “You have to look at the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza as a laboratory . . . ”

    Gaza is to the pacification of resistance to the Anglo-zionist empire as Dugway was to the firebombing of Germany.

    @ 18 minutes: the global militarization, on the Israeli model, of (what used to be) local police forces, turning local police into agents of Global Pacification to facilitate and enforce the repression and exploitation of periphery states (RoW) by core capitalist states (US, EU, Israel) (discussed @ 9 min).

    @22 min: how 9/11 re-framed the political process of actions like militarizing police forces from decisions taken by local/municipal councils to security politics, which are secret and non-transparent.
    i.e.” the Canada-Israel Public Safety __??__, signed by internal ministers of Canada and Israel, went through no committees, no parliaments; nobody knows what it is exactly but it brings Israel . . . into running Canadian prisons. Who better at running a prison than Israel: Gaza is the largest prison in the world.”

  8. There is no steel from the twin towers to examine. It was immediately shipped to China after the collapse.
    “Steel was the structural material of the buildings. As such it was the most important evidence to preserve in order to puzzle out how the structures held up to the impacts and fires, but then disintegrated into rubble. Since the collapse of steel-framed skyscrapers due to fires is completely unprecedented, the steel should have been subjected to detailed analysis. So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!”

    http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

    The government blew up the buildings angle shouldn’t be pursued. Clearly the deep state and Israel benefited from 9/11.

    There are more documents out there to study if a leaker is inclined to release them to wikileaks: http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2016/05/12/the-fbi-is-keeping-80-000-secret-files-on-the-saudis-and-9-11.html

    The members of the Deep state could have very well known about the hijackers and their plot. The CIA knew two hijackers were in the US and withheld the data from the FBI. The same thing could be said about the Boston bombing. The Russians warned us. Mossad was shadowing hijackers. It could very well be that the bombers got support in high places and allowed to conduct their operation. I don’t know. I know as much about the machinery of such things as I do about the physics of why the buildings collapsed.

    I think questioning 9/11 outside of documents like the 28 pages is a discrediting vocation for the one who does it. We have proof that the US backs Al Qaeda in the Middle East (Libya/Syria). We have proof that Saudis and Qataris finance it. We have proof that Israel provides Al Qaeda with healthcare. I don’t see why we need to have an evolution vs creationism debate on 9/11 when there is plenty of evidence that the threat was over-hyped and that there are Americans allied with the attackers now in very high places. I think people around Hillary are pragmatic and sociopathic like her. I think if 9/11 was an inside job it would have come from that cabal because they are Al Qaeda’s biggest supporters in Syria/Libya, believe might makes right, and are duplicitous enough to actually do this. Who is calling the shots? Obama and his generals don’t seem to be keen in helping Al Qaeda in Syria. Dempsey reportedly went behind his back to undermine the CIA and Al Qaeda in Syria. I have a hard time believing Obama is the orchestrator of all these machinations. There is ample proof that there are Americans at the very top and their underlings who have aided Al Qaeda and we are still at war with them. Perhaps we could talk a President Trump into it charging them with treason. They hate him. He hates them. The US needs a good political establishment enema. The thinktanks and institutions connected to foreign governments and the deep state should be cleansed of traitors.

    • Replies: @woodNfish
    , @Carroll Price
  9. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    This article follows the lines drawn by yesterday Unz’s.

    Revusky-like attitudes, although undeniably passion-fueled, lead to little.

    What people like you (and I have fallen for it too many times, too) fail to understand, Jonathan, is that your target is deeply consistently propagandized people who see their manipulators as absolutely trustworthy sources of information and you (plural) as an angry, petulant, outsider making strange claims.

    Now, strange brings to stranger, and the reason why the same word means both “suspicious” and “foreigner” is because, well, the two ideas come together.

    People will be suspicious of new views and ideas.
    You have to grasp what it is like not to grasp something.
    Ever read Bernays?

  10. Realist says:

    “9/11 Truth?
    Was it an “American coup?””

    More than likely.

  11. Brabantian says: • Website

    In the European press, Italy’s President Francesco Cossiga exposed that the NYC towers destruction of 11 September 2001 was done by the USA & Israel’s Mossad, and that all Europe’s governments know this

    Too few people know, that the New York Times itself, a few weeks before the NYC towers fell, photographed ‘Israeli art students’ (!) working in-between the walls of the those towers, amidst stacks of boxes with certain markings which … identify the box contents as components of bomb detonators
    World Trade Center’s Infamous 91st-Floor Israeli ‘Art Student’ Project

    Also, too few people know that Osama Bin Laden himself denied being involved in the 11 Sep. 2001 NYC towers destruction, & that the ‘Osama Bin Laden’ videos & tapes shown for several years afterwards, are clearly-proven fakes with actors

    The claimed discoverer of those ‘bin Laden’ videos & tapes – allegedly scouring the ‘Jihadi YouTubes’ for material no one else ‘finds’ – is Israeli-American Rita Katz of the laughable ‘SITE’ – ‘Search for International Terrorist Entities’

    Dissident US military-intel veterans tell us:

    « The truth about [Osama] Bin Laden, that his last known communication was December 3rd, 2001, received by the CIA / NSA intercept facility in Doha, in which he accused American Neocons of staging 9-11.

    « This was less than two weeks before his death, as reported in Egypt, Pakistan, India, Iran and even by Fox News, until Rita Katz brought him back to life in the guise of a Mercedes repair shop owner of Somali parentage living in Haifa, Israel.

    « The new short, fat Bin Laden, who lost his ability to speak Oxford English, continued to drop audio tapes in the dumpster behind Katz’s Brooklyn apartment for years, until his frozen corpse was dumped into the Indian Ocean. »

    - Gordon Duff, Veterans Today

  12. If I recall correctly, it was Thierry Meyssan who in 2002 in his book La terrible imposture first suggested that 9/11 was a coup. John Kerry’s brother-in-law Sarkozy later forced Meyssan into exile, because he was becoming a nuisance to the US and their French puppets.

  13. 9/11 was a false flag attack. That’s the obvious truth about 9/11. If we knew the details what difference would it make? If you must know the whole story ask Dick Cheney. Or if you prefer the official lie that’s ok with me. It’s just another argument about history.

  14. Miro23 says:

    “…but I am now convinced that a new 9/11 Commission is in order, one that is not run and guided by the government itself.”

    I would go further and say that a new investigation would need the power to arrest and question everyone involved under existing Homeland Security/Patriot Act anti-terror laws with no exceptions (FBI & CIA operatives included) and with the media legally bound to silence until the investigation is complete.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  15. peacenik says:

    Phillip,

    If you really want to get a handle on what occurred on sept 11, 2001, check out Christopher Bollyn’s research. I think he is onto something . . . https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kyLyGXQUIo0

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  16. 2Frothy4 says:

    Will only say ONE thing regarding 9/11………..
    The shock wave from the Pentagon hit almost knocked me out of my chair
    from 1/2 mile away….I thought a bus had hit my office trailer….when I stepped outside
    to investigate,I saw a huge,black plane coming across the Potomac…..
    Later,on the news,I saw an interview with a black kid who saw the same thing….
    I’ve never seen that interview again…….
    No one can tell me that it WASN’T a MISSILE that hit….

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
    , @dahoit
  17. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    There are so many lies and distortions in the official government 9/11 report that it has to be dismissed.

    The 9/11 commission head, Phillip Zeiikow, a good friend of Condi Rice, had the final report’s outlines and chapters created BEFORE the commission even met.

    No one talks about WTC 6, that blew up the afternoon of 9/11, even though it was not on fire and had not been hit be a jet. One can find pics online of the shell of that building, with debris scattered in all directions. To imply that a few steel beams from one of the Twins did that kind of damage is misleading.

    Also, WTC 4 had a gold and silver bullion depository in the basement that someone went into the night BEFORE 9/11 and stole hundreds of millions of dollars of gold and silver. You never hear about that in the MSM.

    When you see the US descending into a ever tightening police state and ME wars being waged that only benefit Israel and those TBTF Wall Street casinos, one has to realize that our own government, with help, attacked Americans on 9/11.

    9/11 was an Israeli masterminded FALSE FLAG, aided by American traitors in the WH, the Pentagon, the CIA, FBI and NSA.

    https://wikispooks.com/wiki/9-11/Israel_did_it

  18. “I am now convinced that a new 9/11 Commission is in order, one that is not run and guided by the government itself. If it can be demonstrated that the attacks carried out on that day were quite possibly set up by major figures both inside and outside the political establishment it might produce such a powerful reaction that the public would demand a reversal of the laws and policies that have so gravely damaged our republic. “

    One problem is that Truthers, even if they are ultimately proven right about a conspiracy, will never be anything more than keyboard kommandos. There have to be at least a million of them, and if they put their money where their mouths and fingers are, they would mass on the National Mall and bring about regime change of some sort.

    But it’s cold/hot/rainy/sunny in DC, so that would be too much discomfort for them, and so we labour on in our newfound gulag.

    • Replies: @Bill
    , @edNels
    , @Carroll Price
  19. Tom Welsh says:

    “So what did the authorities do with this key evidence of the vast crime and unprecedented engineering failure? They recycled it!”

    I think we can all imagine what Lt. Columbo would make of an attempt to cremate the body immediately after a suspicious death!

    • Replies: @dahoit
  20. Tom Welsh says:
    @2Frothy4

    “I saw a huge,black plane coming across the Potomac…”

    Sounds like a Stealth Bomber…

  21. Tom Welsh says:
    @Anonymous

    “Ever read Bernays?”

    Not yet – but I could name some people who most certainly have!

  22. Erebus says:
    @Miro23

    Well, the cat’s out amongst the pigeons again.

    The world labours under so many false narratives that no thoughtful person wonders why it slouches towards doom in a fog of video games, consumerism and porn. 9/11 is but one in a long, long list.

    … a new investigation would need the power to arrest and question everyone involved under existing Homeland Security/Patriot Act anti-terror laws with no exceptions (FBI & CIA operatives included) and with the media legally bound to silence until the investigation is complete.

    The world needs more, much more than that. It needs a Truth Commission presided over by extraterrestrials. Otherwise, it’ll only happen when the high & mighty can no longer be hurt by whatever comes out. There’s probably a revolution or two between now and then.

  23. @AmericaFirstNow

    For actual 9/11 truth about how fire brought down Building 7 as well see the links at following URL:

    http://america-hijacked.com/2011/07/14/alan-sabrosky-911-interview-with-press-tv-host-susan-modaress/

  24. Uncritically examining the first 20 odd comments I now realize how inevitable the collapse of the Twin Towers was. Many different groups, with many different agendas, using many different demolition techniques, were all working independently on 11 September 2001 to bring down the Towers. The only thing these groups appear to have in common is the broad conspiracy within the US government to protect them all from discovery.

  25. Phil

    9/11 was not an inside job 9/11 truther science is “scientific” sewage….it’s that bad.

    9/11 Trutherism is a political cult that promotes political defeatism for it promotes the very dangerous idea of a super-intelligent deep state with the mastermind Bush Family at the helm….you know the Bush Family….the Bush Family whose favorite reading material is “250 Fart Jokes”…

    Jill Stien is an enthusiast for importing millions of young Male Muslim Gang Rapist….this is the reason for Jill Stien’s embracing of 9/11 Trutherism.

    9/11 was a direct consequence of US policy in the Middle East interacting with the treasonous consequences of the passage of The 1965 Immigration Reform Act and the racial civic sloth of millions of Native Born White Americans who should not have been shocked that 9/11 OCCURED who were more interested in NFL Opiate Entertainment….

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  26. Rehmat says:

    Dr. Giraldi is missing the point. While Washington and Zionist-controlled mainstream media had blamed the Taliban, Pakistan, Iran, and lately Saudi Arabia – they never mentioned the 800-pound Gorilla – the Zionist regime.

    The most vilified person had been head of Pakistan’s intelligence chief, Lt. Gen. Hamid Gul, who pointed his finger to Israel Mossad two weeks after the 9/11 – even before media ridiculously blamed Osama Bin Laden in order to invade and occupy Afghanistan – a country which did not had a single tank, helicopter, fighter jet or even a commercial plane to defend itself from the so-called ONLY WORLD POWER.

    Hamid Gul’s claim on September 26, 2001, is now supported by thousands of scientists, scholars, politicians, architects and even a Jewish member of the so-called 9/11 COMISSION, Philip Zelikow (Zionist Jew) admitted in 2004 that America invaded Iraq in 2003 because Saddam Hussein became an existential threat to the Zionist entity.

    In December 2001, US historian Michael Collins Piper claimed that the so-called “19 Arab hijackers” could have been Israeli agents.

    On September 10, 2016, Dr. Paul Craig Roberts posted an article, entitled, 9/11: 15 years of a transparent lie.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/08/17/gen-hamid-gul-the-muslim-soparno-dies/

  27. Rehmat says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    How funny – even the Chief Rabbi of England admitted recently admitted that CHILD SEXUAL ABUSE has become part of Jewish culture …….

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/11/25/uk-chief-rabbi-admits-epidemic-child-sexual-abuse/

    • Replies: @mcohen
    , @Wizard of Oz
  28. TJM says:

    Go back to the Oklahoma Federal building bombing and you will note the same MO…

  29. 9/11 truthers couldn’t even get it right on the physics-engineering behind the collapse of the Twin Towers. If they can’t get this right…everything else that comes after-ignore.

    But I’ll mention one thing that comes after the worthless 9/11 Truther sewage about the collapse TT. The Pentagon’s Bio-indentifivation scientific team as able to identified through DNA testing the remains of people who died on the jet that slammed into the Pentagon.The 9/11 Truthers shriek:”THEY ARE ARE PART OF THE CONSPIRACY ALSO”….the same group of men women who identify they remains of US soldiers who died in Vietnam via DNA testing….They must be lying about this also.

    Take your pick:9/11 Truthers are 1)psychotic delusions….or 2)repellant sociopaths with a very nasty political agenda…..these are the only two options.

  30. Unbelievable. So now Philip Giraldi has been converted into a 9/11-Doucher after watching Loose Change, of all things?

    Some spook you turned out to be. The presence of such weak-minded fools in our intelligence apparatus is more explanatory than any “conspiracy theory” regarding the inexplicable events and stand-downs of 9/11.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  31. @Brabantian

    More 9/11 truther kooker spew as Bin Laden conveyed (in his own words) motivation for 9/11 per following from the UK Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/30/alqaida.september11

    • Replies: @AmericaFirstNow
    , @Kyle
  32. anonymou says:

    9-11 was the spark for the greatest power and money grab in history. Trillions were diverted from the public treasury and into various bank accounts as part of this alleged ‘war on terror’ as well as having citizen’s rights curtailed as internal security agencies increased their power and scope. Homeland Security was already in a drawer waiting to be pulled out. Of course there’s something ‘inside’ about the whole thing; even members of the 9-11 commission have repudiated their own report. It fits right into the pattern of having events trigger an aggressive expansion of American power: the Maine, the Lusitania, Pearl Harbor, Gulf of Tonkin, 9-11. See the pattern? These events are needed to bring an otherwise reluctant public along with the program.
    Just using one’s reasoning it’s clear that it’s impossible for someone who has taken some limited number of lessons flying small propeller planes, the kind that fly around the lakefront with advertising banners, to then get into the cockpit of a large jumbo-jet and fly around as they did and eventually hit their targets, especially hitting the Pentagon at ground level as officially claimed. Hijacker pilots would need planes to train on, trainers, training manuals in Arabic since their English was poor, access to airfields and a security system to assure discretion. Only a state has the resources to provide that.
    The government could never allow the truth to come out as that would undermine it’s legitimacy. Too many people have profited, there’s too much at stake for this to happen. They’ll throw whatever resources they need to undermine any real look into this. After all, it’s all just someone else’s money garnered through taxes so of course they can be generous with it if need be. The public is paying for it’s own jailers.

  33. Bill says:
    @The Alarmist

    The March for Life brings about a half million each year. What’s the exact number they need to get to for regime change to materialize?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  34. @AmericaFirstNow

    See the captions in following Youtube for more on motive for the 9/11 hijackers as well:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=95ncn5Q16N4&list=PL3C32560738EF3C30&feature=plpp

  35. @anonymou

    9/11 Truthers screen out expert opinion from intellectually honest experts. And anyone who challenges the 9/11 Truther “scientific” expertise is either stupid….or part of the 9/11 Conspiracy….9/11 Truthers are absolutely “brilliant” debaters!!!.

    9/11 was completely avoidable:1965 -2016 a National Origins Immigration Policy that completey excluded all Muslims forever. But these raises the very interesting question of why Muslims are being imported into the US in the first place. Answer:51 years of importing Hillary Clinton’s Voting Bloc(Khirzir Khan’s People)…And this is gar worse than 9/11 and the Fort Hood Massacre by many many orders of magnitude.

  36. Marcus says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Troofers, like JFK conspiracy theorists, are small-minded people who believe that history has to unfold in a “logical” fashion, or something must be very wrong: a loser like Oswald can’t assassinate the leader of the free world, “Arabs with boxcutters” can’t be responsible for 9/11, etc. hence “weight” has to be added to the perpetrators: they were patsies of a larger satanic plot of the CIA, the Vatican, etc.

  37. dearieme says:

    “Hitler’s Reichstag fire … [was] essentially fraudulent”: some historians disagree. They think it probably was the work of the mad Dutch communist, and took the Nazis by surprise.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
    , @Carroll Price
  38. Wade says:
    @Anonymous

    What people like you (and I have fallen for it too many times, too) fail to understand, Jonathan, is that your target is deeply consistently propagandized people who see their manipulators as absolutely trustworthy sources of information and you (plural) as an angry, petulant, outsider making strange claims.

    This is absolutely correct. I got this reaction from family members recently when I simply tried to explain Hillary Clinton’s multiple crimes and potential treason as revealed by Judicial Watch and Wikileaks. For example, there is pretty solid evidence that the Clintons are laundering money given to the Clinton foundation through a pass-through shell corporation called WJC LLC. This turned up through some documents called “The Panama Papers.”

    Although they don’t support Hillary for president, some of my family members seem to think that if she’s really this bad she wouldn’t have gotten this far. I can’t imagine trying to explain the case that 911 was an inside job to them.

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
  39. Shame on you, Phil. Don’t you get the lion’s-share of comments already, with every article you submit? Yet, you still decided to dip your johnson in fodder for the Dumbass Brigade.

    Rather than a special, non-governmental yet mysteriously well-funded “commission” to re-examine the WTC attacks, how about we have an independent commission to root out corruption in the US governments at all local, state, and federal levels? And we hang a few sterling examples?

    Every “re-examination” in history has been nothing but boondoggle. And new lies, new sets of lies, new wildass conspiracy theories, astronomically-high expense, etc. Screw that. Go in there, find corruption, and drag the guilty out by tits and testicles.

    • Replies: @dahoit
  40. Fred Reed says:

    Nine-Eleven Conspiracy Exam (Note: This was written when Israel was the most popular culprit. Some questions may need to be changed to reflect changes in guilt. Failure to answer all questions will result in a grade of F.)

    Was the US government solely responsible for the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Was Israel solely responsible for the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Did Israel and the US government together engineer the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Was neither Israel nor the US government responsible? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Were Saudis involved in any way in the plot? yes___no___Don’t know___

    If Israel was responsible, did the CIA know? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Was President Bush, through the CIA or otherwise, aware of the Israeli participation, making the President and the CIA part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Did AA77 hit the Pentagon. yes___no___Don’t know___

    Essay question: If no, What happened to AA77? ____________ Don’t know___

    If not AA77, did a missile hit the Pentagon? yes___no___Don’t know___

    If a missile, was ws it fired by the US military, making the military part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    If no, fired by whom? ____________ Don’t know___

    Did the NTSB fake the data from the flight data recorders, making it part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Were the Towers destroyed by a controlled demolition? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Did aircraft hit the the Towers? yes___no___Don’t know___

    If so, who flew them? ____________ Don’t know__

    Essay question: Why both controlled demolition and aircraft? Ignore this question if the two were not used together

    Essay question: If a controlled demolition, describe the placement and quantities needed, and the source of your information.

    Was the FBI involved in the cover-up, and therefore part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Was Larry Silverstein, owner of the Towers, part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Did the media cover up the conspiracy, thereby making them part of it? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Essay question: If Israel was involved, should America bomb Tel Aviv?

  41. Miro23 says:

    “The 9/11 Truthers shriek” , ” 9/11-Doucher”, “More 9/11 truther kooker spew”

    There’s definitely something going on here. If 9/11 was a genuine Arab Jihadist attack on the US, they would be first in line to investigate it in Holocaust level detail. As it is, 9/11 falls in to the very different USS Liberty False Flag category. Survivors and witnesses are bitterly attacked until 50 years later when its “old history” and “time to move on”.

  42. Diogenes says:

    9/11 was an amazing sociological event for what it can tell us about human psychology. The vast majority of people uncritically swallowed the official explanation, a few critical observers cast suspicions on the official story, then a group of chronically suspicious people, known as conspiracy theorists, who believe the government cannot be trusted had a cause celebre, then a group of anti conspiracy theorists and pro-government reactionaries devoted their energies to discredit the 9/11 Truthers while the vast majority of people are as a result confused and paralyzed into indecision and apathy. I will take note of who in these comments are 9/11 naysayers and observe what they say about other controversial topics!

    • Replies: @Miro23
  43. “Only two governments would have had that capability, the United States itself and also Israel, unfortunately mentioned only once in passing in the film”

    Even the makers of this film fear the wrath of the yid.

  44. @Bill

    A million might do it, but not as a day trip. They’d need to camp out like OWS or the old WW I bonus army. Getting tear gassed and tased wouldn’t be fun, but it might get some media attention.

    Oh, I forgot who’s running the media these days. Probably would get less coverage than the North Dakota pipeline protests.

  45. @Fred Reed

    Question for Fred. What happened on 9/11? Hint – you don’t fucking know.

  46. dahoit says:

    Well,only one nation benefited from 9-11,Israel.
    All the media is Israeli centric.
    They lie serially.
    Israel did it,or at least knew.
    And they made a hero out of the zero who let it happen.
    What do you need,a punch in the face to wake up?
    And the serial liars want no part of DT.
    Which means we need him desperately,and will on Nov 8,despite serial liars bloviation.

  47. dahoit says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    No way you are a Smith.You are a Shomer.
    Everything you spew reveals it.By deception they rule.

    • Replies: @Ivy
  48. Rurik says:

    The underlying premise of most 9/11 revisionism is that the United States government, or at least parts of it, is capable of almost anything.

    we now know that they set the Waco compound on fire, and that they were firing machine guns into the only exit once the flames had engulfed the building. Bodies were piled up at the site of the exit that the coroner ruled were homicide deaths from bullet wounds. Homicides that our government committed. Most American yawn at such news. ‘Those people (including the children) were ‘whackos’.

    Recently our government has murdered or maimed or displaced millions upon millions of innocent men, women and children in the Middle East, and destroyed several countries, all based on by now well-established lies. Most Americans yawn at such knowledge. Those people ‘hate our freedom’.

    Our government is also running a permanent torture camp. A ‘Ministry of Love’, or Minluv, in Orwell’s Newspeak parlance.

    The signatories of the neocon Project for the New American Century paper observed that was needed was a catalyst to produce a public demand to “do something,” that “something” being an event comparable to Pearl Harbor. Seventeen signatories of the document wound up in senior positions in the Bush Administration.

    the “something” that these neocon Zionists demanded from their “new Pearl Harbor like event” was for America to set about destroying all Muslim nations considered inconvenient to Israel. Without the ‘event’, Americans just were not willing to sacrifice their children to the Zionist cause.

    One of the central figures demanding that America act in Israel’s interest was a one Phillip D. Zelikow. A neocon insider extraordinaire.

    This from his Wiki page:

    In the November–December 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs, he co-authored an article Catastrophic Terrorism, with Ashton B. Carter, and John M. Deutch, in which they speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center had succeeded, “the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet atomic bomb test in 1949. Like Pearl Harbor, the event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either future terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks. Belatedly, Americans would judge their leaders negligent for not addressing terrorism more urgently.” [24]

    Yes, that Ashton Carter, our current Secretary of Defense. And John Deutch was the director of the CIA at one time. (perhaps Mr. Giraldi knows of him)

    This Jewish neocon war mongering Zionist who called for a Peal Harbor like event to catalyze Americans to go to war for Israel, ended up being the executive director of the 911 Commission. The same 911 Commission that is universally recognized as a fraud and a cover up. Even by some of the men who were on it.

    I’m going to stop here. My head simply swims from the sheer evil of these people.

    • Agree: Miro23, Stonehands
  49. Miro23 says:
    @Diogenes

    “The vast majority of people uncritically swallowed the official explanation”

    That’s me, and I also read and accepted the 9/11 Commission Report with its account of US government bungling and lack of communication.

    The surprise came later when I found that a third building (47 storey tower WTC7) collapsed that same day, of which I had heard nothing, and about which the Commission Report was completely silent. Why?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  50. dahoit says:
    @2Frothy4

    DC is the lowest profile city in America,where the highest point is the Wash, monument.
    Why are there absolutely no photos from the many tourists out that beautiful day to confirm a jet?
    Digital cameras were commonplace at the time,as well as traditional cameras.
    Scam.

    • Replies: @Delinquent Snail
  51. FLgeezer says:
    @Fred Reed

    >If Israel was involved, should America bomb Tel Aviv?

    We should do so regardless. 8-)

    • Replies: @Tom Welsh
  52. dahoit says:
    @Marcus

    I find you zionists the smallest minded idiots in the history of the world,but you clowns think you are gods.
    Whom the gods destroy,they first make mad.
    Pride goeth before the fall.
    Two very relevant homilies?
    Trump will reveal the truth,hence the zionist hatred.What else would drive their hydrophobia?

    • Replies: @Marcus
  53. @Fred Reed

    You just can’t resist, can ya, Fred? Awww, stop already. Leave the dumbasses to their feedbins. America needs dumbasses now more than ever.

    Waaaaaitaminnit … that was you who faked that Beltway shot of the plane going into the Pentagon, warn’t it? Yepper, it figures you were in on the whole deal from the beginning. Prolly went to Tel Aviv with the money in a satchel, dint ya?

  54. Miro23 says:
    @Fred Reed

    A simpler 9/11 questionnaire for Fred;

    “Did right wing elements in Israel close to Likud, and US Neocons close to the Bush administration engineer the attacks to enable the Iraq war?” Yes____ No____ Don’t know____

    Essay question: Are there any similarities between these events and other False Flag attacks aimed at Great Britain and the US such as 1) The King David Hotel bombing 2) Operation Susannah – Lavon Affair 3) USS Liberty?

  55. HdC says:
    @Miro23

    …”investigate it in Holocaust level detail. “…

    Unless you mean the Leuchter and Rudolf reports, there never was any official detailled investigation.

    The entire holocaust fable relies on “eye witness testimony” which has been thoroughly debunked.

    In another thread on this website I wrote a brief engineering analysis (I’m a P.Eng. with structural steel experience) as to why the onset of the WTC collapse was a reasonable expectation following the aircraft impact; but my missive was deleted for reasons unknown.

    HdC

    • Replies: @iffen
  56. dahoit says:
    @Tom Welsh

    And the MSM total ignoring of the alleged attackers motivations,or family interviews or any real concern about the behind the scenes machinations of various Saudi and Israelis leaves no doubt of a coverup.
    Letting the shrub stand on the wreckage of his own failures,and proclaiming him a hero,and the demonization of Saddam Hussein,the mortal enemy of the jihadists,and the enemy of zion,is another revelation ignored by so many morons,or fifth columnist traitors.
    And the Israelis told to stay home that day,another narrative hidden,and a smoking gun for any rational human.
    Serial liars lie serially,and they hate DT.WTF does anyone need?

  57. @Miro23

    The surprise came later when I found that a third building (47 storey tower WTC7) collapsed that same day, of which I had heard nothing, and about which the Commission Report was completely silent. Why?

    NIST published a full report on the WTC7 collapse in 2008. It’s around — go read it.

    A key to instant identification of the faith-based C-theorist is the loud claim that “steel-framed buildings” don’t collapse as a result of fire. Fact is, yes they do — known, verified, fully-explained using real, verifiable data.

  58. Che Guava says:
    @Fred Reed

    Fred,

    Love your writing.

    Silberstein is the co-owner. The other is Frank Lowy (interesting how well he’s stayed out of the spotlight). With the gargantuan insurance payments, both qualify under cui bono.

    There is also the small matter of extremely profitable and massive stock market moves in the hours framing the event. Widely reported in the regular press, an investigation was announced, it was quashed.

    So, no matter what else, some people gained massive windfall profits from the event.

    The insurance may have been blind luck, although I don’t believe it. Silberstein and Lowy don’t seem at all affected by the fates of the people in their property.

    If the big one (earthquake) hit and I and any of the few other tenants were buried in the rubble, dead, and our landlady survived in her free-standing home, I’m sure she would pray for us at the appropriate shrines or temples, and be in grief for us.

    The stock market plays are another matter. They were real, and clearly a form of insider trading, based on knowledge of what was to happen.

  59. Jon Gold says: • Website

    “For the first time” – David Cobb did in 2004, and Cynthia McKinney did in 2008.

  60. Jon Gold says: • Website

    Loose Change? C’mon Phil…

    9/11: Press For Truth

    In Their Own Words: The Untold Stories Of The 9/11 Families

    9/11 Family Members, Jersey Girls, and member of the 9/11 Family Steering Committee Lorie Van Auken and Mindy Kleinberg released a report showing how poorly the 9/11 Commission answered their questions:

    http://wewereliedtoabout911.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/fsc_review.pdf

    The September Eleventh Advocates (Jersey Girls) have released a multitude of press releases over the years bringing attention to and calling into question certain aspects of 9/11:

    http://wewereliedtoabout911.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/911advocates.pdf

    Here are the 9/11 Family Steering Committee’s list of unanswered questions. The final statement from the 9/11 Family Steering Committee states “the report did not answer all of our questions…”:

    http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

    Here is essential testimony from different 9/11 Family Members during the 9/11 Commission:

    http://www.911independentcommission.org/testimony.html

    Here are all of the different statements released by the 9/11 Family Steering Committee during the time of the 9/11 Commission. They show extremely well the corruption and compromise within the 9/11 Commission:

    http://www.911independentcommission.org/news.html

    My EXTREMELY extensive show “We Were Lied To About 9/11.”

    https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/we-were-lied-to-about-9-11/id955030348?mt=2

  61. @Miro23

    There physics and engineering science behind the collapse of the TT does not support the 9/11 Truther Conspiracy. It has been 15 years of fine grained-technical-refutations of 9/11 Truther “Science”….just google it.

    The 9/11 Truther start out with the “truth” of their grand conspiracy….reality is grossly distorted to fit the 9/11 Truther Psychosis. This is not how science works….suppose to work.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  62. Tom Welsh says:
    @Wade

    “Although they don’t support Hillary for president, some of my family members seem to think that if she’s really this bad she wouldn’t have gotten this far”.

    Now that really is bitterly ironic. If she WASN’T that bad she wouldn’t have gotten this far. The presidency is a prize that appeals only to the power-hungry and psychotic. The election process could hardly have been better designed to weed out the honest, the fair, the decent and the kind if it had been done deliberately.

  63. Tom Welsh says:
    @FLgeezer

    Well, it does seem unfair to leave just one nation in the Near East unbombed…

  64. @John Jeremiah Smith

    John Jeremiah Smith

    And the NIST did a painstaking detailed measurement of how long it took for building 7 to collapse…..and it refutes the 9/11 Truther claim of free fall-although the 9/11 to this day dishonestly claim the NIST measurement of the time of the collapse supports their free fall theory. The authors of the NIST reject the 9/11 Truther misrepresentation of their research.

  65. Jon Gold says: • Website

    NO NEW AUMF!!! NO MORE WAR!!!

  66. iffen says:
    @HdC

    The entire holocaust fable relies on “eye witness testimony” which has been thoroughly debunked.

    The entire reality “we exist” fable relies on “eye witness testimony” which has been thoroughly debunked.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    , @Art
  67. @Marcus

    Although it would be overkill….and very cruel….the JFK assassination Conspiracy Theorists should have been forced to give their physics calculation which shows that Lee Harvey Oswald couldn’t have shot JFK in fr0nt of the tenured Cal Tech Physics Department.

    I have violent hatred of the scummy Kennedy Family. The Kennedy Cockroach Clan murdered the Historic Native Born White American Majority Working Class.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  68. Rurik says:
    @Fred Reed

    Was the US government solely responsible for the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    no, Israel was also responsible

    Was Israel solely responsible for the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    No, elements in the US gov and controlled media were also responsible

    Did Israel and the US government together engineer the attacks? yes___no___Don’t know___

    not governments per se, but elements in those governments. Like “the orders still stand” Dick Cheney, but certainly not all the assorted minions of the US or Israeli governments.

    Was neither Israel nor the US government responsible? yes___no___Don’t know___

    not governments per se. If you restrict the question to this broadly defined blanket condemnation, then the answer would be ‘yes’.

    Were Saudis involved in any way in the plot? yes___no___Don’t know___

    there’s zero reason for thinking so

    If Israel was responsible, did the CIA know? yes___no___Don’t know___

    at the highest levels, yes, but there again, that certainly doesn’t mean every single employee

    Was President Bush, through the CIA or otherwise, aware of the Israeli participation, making the President and the CIA part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Don’t know

    Did AA77 hit the Pentagon. yes___no___Don’t know___

    there’s no evidence of it. And if it had, they’d show us one of the scores (hundreds?) of videos

    Essay question: If no, What happened to AA77? ____________ Don’t know___

    the reason the flights were wildly diverted was probably to land the planes, liquidate the passengers and crew, and then send up specially outfitted jets for the purpose of crashing into the towers. (as the pretext for them to collapse, as the pretext to start the Eternal Wars for Israel and to turn us all into Palestinians)

    If not AA77, did a missile hit the Pentagon? yes___no___Don’t know___

    it looks like it

    If a missile, was ws it fired by the US military, making the military part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Don’t know. And again, it wouldn’t be “the military”, as in some monolithic entity that is fully aware of everything that “it’ does. There are fringe sub-sets of the military that are often engaged in illegal and covert ops.

    If no, fired by whom? ____________ Don’t know___

    Don’t know

    Did the NTSB fake the data from the flight data recorders, making it part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    what data?!

    From what I understand, we have not been made privy to any of the information on any of the flight data recorders. If you’re aware of any data from the flight data recorders then you should give us a link!

    Were the Towers destroyed by a controlled demolition? yes___no___Don’t know___

    yes

    it’s *obvious* that building seven was thus demolished, and so it follows that the other two were also.

    Did aircraft hit the the Towers? yes___no___Don’t know___

    two of them, yes. The third was not hit by a plane, it simply plopped down in nicely cut pieces ready for shipment to China.

    If so, who flew them? ____________ Don’t know__

    In all likelihood, remote control. Check out the comptroller of the Pentagon at the time and his sundry organizations. Nice little rabbit hole of its own.

    Essay question: Why both controlled demolition and aircraft? Ignore this question if the two were not used together

    horror

    they needed to horrify and anger the American people to rally us to war on Israel’s neighbors. (+ there was the added benefit to lucky Larry of a few billion shekels and an opportunity to get rid of a couple of financial boondoggles. Such a deal!)

    Essay question: If a controlled demolition, describe the placement and quantities needed, and the source of your information.

    this is silly

    we don’t need to know the exact caliber of bullet that hit JFK to know that the government and Warren commission was lying. And they likely used military type crap that we’re not even privy to. Come on Fred.

    Was the FBI involved in the cover-up, and therefore part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    elements, sure

    like the people that went around and collected all the videos that might have showed what hit the Pentagon. Certainly the people at the top were and are privy to the crime and cover up. Just like with JFK.

    Was Larry Silverstein, owner of the Towers, part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Yes, of course he was

    Did the media cover up the conspiracy, thereby making them part of it? yes___no___Don’t know___

    not your local channel seven, but the media as it’s controlled from the top, and lie about EVERTYING. Yes Fred, that media was complicit. And still are. And are the ones that are going to hand the reins of this nations to Hillary Clinton. That media, you betcha.

    Essay question: If Israel was involved, should America bomb Tel Aviv?

    of course not. There again you’re being silly Fred.

    what America should do is the same thing is should (and still needs to) do as regards the other cowardly and treacherous false flag that *elements* in the Israeli government and security forces were responsible for- the attack on the USS Liberty. We should have a real investigation that ferrets out these uber-criminals and brings them to justice.

    911 was a coup to turn the US into Israel’s rabid dog in the Levant. And create a police state for any Americans that object, even with our very own torture camp. Isn’t that something?

    You should write about it someday Fred. I can’t think of a person more suited to mock the American idea of the free and the brave running a torture camp for goat herders and Afghans who don’t want America making them free too.

    as for 911, all you have to know is that building seven was an obvious controlled demolition. From there it doesn’t matter if George Dubya Bush was in on it or what type of materials specifically were used to bring the buildings down. That shit is all academic. We know they lied, and are lying. Only a deluded fool or moral coward (or worse) would pretend to themselves otherwise once he’s seen the irrefutable evidence that they’re lying.

  69. Marcus says:
    @dahoit

    Thanks for proving my point, you think anyone who doesn’t entertain your kookery is obviously an eebil Zionest. Also, hydrophobia??

    • Replies: @mcohen
  70. Che Guava says:
    @dearieme

    You get it wrong with the ‘…’.

    Whilst there is some reason for doubt on the Reichstag fire, the cases for Pearl Harbour and the ‘Tonkin Gulf incident’ are well established.

    Although the latter two are not at all parallel, at Pearl Harbour, many were sacrificed to drag the U.S.A. into the war, the Tonkin Gulf incident shades into the land of pure propaganda.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  71. woodNfish says:
    @Johnny F. Ive

    Trump has been saying he will drain the DC swamp.

    Sending the steel to China to get rid of the evidence is not unlike the government’s bulldozing of the still smouldering remains of the Branch Davidian massacre in Waco Texas after torturing the members and their children 24 hours a day for 83 days.

    • Replies: @Johnny F. Ive
  72. Marcus says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Yeah no tears for them. JFK himself coined “nation of immigrants” in tract he wrote for ADL. Joe Kennedy, Sr. was the only good one, he tried to keep US out of WW2.

  73. This is not rocket science or a John Le Carre novel. All you have to know is that the buildings were destroyed by controlled demolitions. To confirm this, just find videos of Vegas hotels and the like being taken down. The buildings came down just slightly slower than free fall, which required that hundreds of eighty story high metal supports from which the rest of the buildings hung were destroyed all the way down, story by story, just ahead of the mass right above them. You do this by setting thermite charges in the building, story by story, and control the process by computer. How this was all done is a matter about which reasonable men can differ. That it was done is undeniable, and any rational effort to unravel the whole business has to start there.

  74. @War for Blair Mountain

    And the NIST did a painstaking detailed measurement of how long it took for building 7 to collapse

    A disproportionate amount of the C-Theory hinges on Bldg. 7, so Bldg. 7 collapse as “unexplained” is being vociferously claimed and defended by C-Theorists.

    That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known, and readily demonstrable, although a good small-scale experimental set-up is expensive. This has been common knowledge in the engineering community since Dresden. In fact, the frequently pointed-to external steel framing of the WTC was intended, partially, as prevention of the supposedly unlikely event of just such a fire. It worked, almost, in that the vertical collapse as the corner welds popped prevented extreme additional destruction to adjacent buildings. Can you imagine the death and calamity on the streets below, had those 1400-foot structures swayed, and come down laterally? New Yorkers should be grateful for serendipitous fringe benefits.

  75. @John McFarland

    You do this by setting thermite charges in the building, story by story, and control the process by computer. How this was all done is a matter about which reasonable men can differ. That it was done is undeniable, and any rational effort to unravel the whole business has to start there.

    Nope. Videos of controlled demolition do not support anything except that proper placement of charges is one way to bring down a building vertically — and controlled demolition is no guarantee of a purely vertical collapse.

    The C-Theorist claim that the WTC was brought down by controlled demolition is utter crap.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  76. TheJester says:

    There are multiple ways to engineer a “False Flag” attack:

    1. You do it yourself, flying someone else’s “flag” and hope no one notices. (Very primitive … rarely works unless you are a wooden frigate at sea attacking enemy maritime commerce.)

    2. You hire someone else to do it and hope none of them get caught. (Moderately primitive … but it worked for awhile in the Kennedy assassination.)

    3. You infiltrate a hostile terrorist organization, take control, and redirect it to the attack. (Very difficult to do … but this was done in the NATO-sponsored Gladio terrorist attacks in Europe in the 1960s as well as the Black Hand attacks that precipitated WWI.)

    4. You infiltrate a hostile terrorist organization, discover what they have planned, and QUIETLY remove all of YOUR obstacles that would otherwise have prevented the attack. (This is the best if you can pull it off since you leave no fingerprints. You might, as in 911, be accused of incompetent but, okay, you missed that one, so what!)

    BTW: #4 doesn’t mean you don’t help the terrorists with a little demolition work to make sure the spectacle unfolds as planned. You really need grand firework displays in these things to get them the attention they deserve.

    • Replies: @Ex-Saffer
  77. Biff says:

    Watched loose change.

    While some of the architects and scientists were credible, the Marco Rubio janitor dude was practicing for a slot as a TV evangelist – not credible.

    • Replies: @restless94110
  78. @Rurik

    Hi Rurik,

    We are on the same side here, of course, but I really do have to re-iterate something that I have already been trying to communicate for some time now.

    The people on our side of the debate must stop adopting a passive approach. In the above, Freddy boy outlines a series of questions and you dutifully answer said questions. In other words, you immediately cede the initiative. Now, okay, you ask him some questions, but you know he’s not going to answer, that’s not how it works. He will either disappear or just ask some more asinine questions.

    No, it must be established up front that if you answer his questions, he must answer yours. Thus, when he asks the question of whether Larry Silverstein was in on it, you must establish that he, the defender of the official story must answer the question of whether Osama Bin Laden was behind the attacks, also were the Taliban in on it. And if that is the case, then he must outline the evidence. So this is very poor tactically:

    Was Larry Silverstein, owner of the Towers, part of the conspiracy? yes___no___Don’t know___

    Yes, of course he was

    I believe you should say: “In my opinion, Larry Silverstein was in on it, yes. Apparently, you believe that these attacks were orchestrated by Osama Bin Laden from faroff Afghanistan. (Correct me if I’m wrong.) If that is so, could you outline for me what the strongest evidence for that is?

    You cannot accept a situation in which you must continually answer his (mostly asinine) questions and there is no onus on the other side side (on Freddy boy in this case, but it’s not specifically about him) to answer any question of yours. They continually play this game and get away with it.

    It’s like I said in a previous essay, it’s like a game of tennis in which your opponent always gets to serve, and then, even if you execute a perfect return of serve, they just ignore that, and grab a ball and serve again, without conceding the previous point.

    I called this “blowhard tactics” and, if you haven’t figured it out by now, Freddy boy is one major league blowhard — though he’s not the only one!

    I know that self-observation is a difficult thing, but please consider what I’m saying, Rurik. You really really should develop an approach that is less reactive and try to put somebody like Freddy boy here in a position where he has to answer your questions. Okay, I know that Fred is not honest and he won’t engage in an honest discussion, so if you ask him any pointed questions, like what the evidence is that OBL was behind it, he’ll just walk away, but we establish this at least. We establish that the guy is dishonest and then once that is established, we can finally just stop pretending that he is and the gloves damned well come off… your approach takes us around in circles basically.

    Please think about what I’m trying to tell you.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  79. peacenik says:
    @Marcus

    First, check out this video:

    Now, I put it to you that the only “small-minded” people and cowards are those who still insist they see an apple when it is clearing an orange that is in front of their eyes!

  80. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    New Yorkers should be grateful for serendipitous fringe benefits.

    perhaps the most cynical thing I’ve ever read (and that’s saying a lot!)

    That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known,

    it happens all the time! [never] except on 9/11

    but it was so certain to happen on 9/11 that they knew it would even before it did!

    I’ve posted this for you before

    perhaps Fred Reed can watch it too

    like the Israelis setting up their cameras to “document” the attack that day, this video is proof of foreknowledge of the controlled demolition of building seven

    for all the simpletons out there, for them to know the building was going to come down, it had to have been wired for a CD. Period. There’s no wiggle room here folks

    and they weren’t the only msm that fucked up and reported on the building falling before it did, the BBC did the same thing.

    Now please use your noggins and ask yourself how they could have known that this building was going to implode, when nothing like this has ever happened in the history of the world, before or since?

    even today anyone can watch that building collapse and see that it was brought down

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  81. @John Jeremiah Smith

    That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known,

    Can you name a single case where this happened excluding 9/11/2001?

    And I mean specifically: the integral collapse of a steel framed skyscraper from uncontrolled fire in a way that is visually identical to a controlled demolition? When and where did this happen?

  82. peacenik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    “That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known, and readily demonstrable, although a good small-scale experimental set-up is expensive. This has been common knowledge in the engineering community since Dresden.”

    You are a bare-faced liar!

    The truth is . . .

    “. . . neither before nor since 9/11 have fires caused
    the total collapse of a steel-framed high-rise—nor has
    any other natural event, with the exception of the 1985
    Mexico City earthquake, which toppled a 21-story office
    building . . .”

    Source: http://www.europhysicsnews.org/articles/epn/pdf/2016/04/epn2016474p21.pdf

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  83. Phil,

    Although I appreciate what you want to accomplish in your heart , but as St. Augustine once said, “the flesh” & keeping it intact prevents you from doing so.

    Your opening about the greater good will of Jill Stein was good, but you’d be much better served by noting the wealthy and influential who act with absolute POWER to stop any serious reopening of the 9-11 murder case.

    Also, as a commentator recommended (above), it’s difficult for me to think you’re unaware of Christopher Bollyn’s careful research and findings codified in his book “Solving 9-11.”

    The 9-11 mass murder will remain a “Closed Case” until truly great American patriot journalists/intellectuals/mass of Average Joe’s unite to place their jobs & lives on-the-line for apprehension of the MSM insulated criminals. (Note: Forget the majority of U.S. politicians because they care more for their “flesh” than their “souls”)

    “Open case”

    • Replies: @L.K
  84. For those just coming into the 911 Truth movement, you should probably look at the hard evidence first to see if it merits further consideration. After that, you can go to he circumstantial evidence.

    Start with the physics and engineering:

    The question isn’t whether this theory or that theory is absolutely correct. The question is whether there is sufficient cause for a new investigation. I never hear a good argument from the anti-Truth crowd as to why we shouldn’t have another investigation.

    We want a new investigation. They don’t want one. Why?

  85. @Anonymous

    I agree they are propagandized and they don’t have a frame of reference to understand where we are coming from. Besides appealing to their prejudices I don’t see how one could change their opinion besides providing them with documents made available to the public. I think the released DIA report on the West and the Gulf states supporting a Salafist Principality would be more easily to swallow than videos about 9/11 arguing that it was demolition. One thing the DIA report and Wikileaks material came from the beast itself.

    I don’t think 9/11 was a coup. It was a new raison d’etre for our rulers. The coup happened a long time ago, during the cold war or before. The cold war ended and we had rogue states all over the place all of a sudden, and the US went to fight them to Pat Buchanan’s dismay.

  86. @woodNfish

    Waco was a horrible crime.

    We should get on twitter and ask Donald Trump if he will charge them for treason, and whatever else that would be feasible to punish their treachery. I hope he does it. We all need to encourage him on it.

    • Replies: @woodNfish
    , @utu
    , @Carroll Price
  87. Rurik says:
    @Jonathan Revusky

    You cannot accept a situation in which you must continually answer his (mostly asinine) questions and there is no onus on the other side side …

    it’s like a game of tennis in which your opponent always gets to serve

    ask him any pointed questions, like what the evidence is that OBL was behind it, he’ll just walk away

    I agree with what you’re saying JR

    we are on the maligned and marginalized side here. We are trying to speak truth to power, and that’s always a one way street. But they have the power, and I guess I’m not really trying to engage them personally, I’m trying to reach the lurkers and people of good will who’re honestly trying to figure out what really happened. If Fred or others are vested in the system that keeps them in the dark, then you’re right, I’m not going to get him to change his mind. But I’m not really trying to. Just tying to point out how utterly preposterous and asinine his position is.

    And there’s another thing I think we should always try to keep in mind. Just as you and others were once convinced that the official version was the truth, there are legions of people out there who’re honest and well-intentioned who simply haven’t’ given any of this much thought. Most people have never even heard of building seven! They’ve marinated in the false narrative for fifteen years now, and you can’t expect them to watch one video and come to the (horrifying) conclusion that the people Americans trust the most to protect them, are murderers and psychopaths who kill and lie with pure indifference. That’s one hell of a pill to swallow JR, and sometimes you think people are being dishonest or daft, when they’re only trying to maintain the foundations under their world view. Sure they dissemble and rationalize, but it’s not always because they’re in on it, or are necessarily too stupid to see the obvious, (as it seems to us). It’s just that their entire world and reality would come unglued if they seriously entertained the notion that these guys actually were *that* fucking evil. Indeed, the men who perpetrated this thing were counting on that very human and very recognized proclivity and failing. That’s the whole thing behind the Big Lie, the idea that the bigger it is, the more likely people are to believe it.

    So I have to check myself when I’m dealing with people like this, and have to use a sort of psychological divining rod to glimmer those who’re lying shills from those who’re innocently and hopelessly deluded.

  88. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    People who lack:

    the scientific and technical chops to seriously assess how buildings collapse or how a large passenger airliner might be completely consumed by a fire

    but who nevertheless claim to have a useful view of what lay behind 9/11 are either part of the ignorant mass that never will understand what’s going on in the world (as one would expect of an American intelligence expert), or an agent of cognitive infiltration intent on spreading confusion.

    The discussion of 9/11 is, for all useful purposes, over. We, that is to say those who can reason logically and who understand basic physics, know that the Twin Towers were brought down with explosives, and that is all that a citizen of a supposedly democratic country needs to know. The World is now waiting to see whether the Clinton/Bush NeoCon conspirators responsible for the 1993 and 2001 attacks on the WTC will ever be brought to justice. But, the World is not holding its breath.

  89. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    As for a new investigation of the 9/11 False Flag, forget it, who will do the investigating?

    The FBI, who’s in bed–yuck–with Hillary?

    The CIA, one of if not the biggest illegal drug dealer in the world, specializing in Afghan heroin?

    Our government, which has been taken over by a motley collection of thieves, professional liars, mass murderers and traitors?

    Either we do something about this travesty or get used to our new Gitmo type arrangements. Try explaining to your kids and grandkids what freedom once was when they’ve been under the lash.

  90. woodNfish says:
    @Johnny F. Ive

    It was a horrible crime and it is was a turning point for me and my personal relationship with this country which I have now disowned. But was it treason? It was definitely a crime against humanity and I would like to see every government and private thug responsible (including Clinton and his head bitch Janet Reno) on trial at the Hague, but only if it ended in their executions for the crime. None of them should be spared the ultimate penalty.

    • Replies: @Marcus
  91. @War for Blair Mountain

    Nobody on this board knows exactly how the THREE towers came down, who did it, or the motivation behind it. A Boeing 757 with a 124′ wingspan certainly did not hit the Pentagon, nor did one crash in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania – this is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes.

    Anyone who actually believes the official story is a fool of epic proportions, or most likely, deluded. Quoting the Pentagon as a credible source is especially hilarious.

    • Replies: @Old fogey
  92. Art says:

    The signatories of the neocon Project for the New American Century paper observed that was needed was a catalyst to produce a public demand to “do something,” that “something” being an event comparable to Pearl Harbor. Seventeen signatories of the document wound up in senior positions in the Bush Administration.

    Hmm — do you believe in coincidences?

    Hmm — all those people in high places who want something to happen – then it happens – Gosh – Gee Willickers – do you think?

  93. edNels says:
    @The Alarmist

    Oh BS!

    they would mass on the National Mall and bring about regime change of some sort.

    Just remember back to the ”Bonus Army” the ww1 vets who amassed in DC to demand the bonus they were promised. Only to be fired on by McArthurs troops, some killed and run off.

    Today if you had a million really threatening crowd of protesters that had blood in their eye, they would be liquidated. They would be treated like Tianamin square protesters were.

    All communications would be stopped there in the location, News would be blacked out, and some sort of cover story would be fabricated. The million plus would be history… they’d pulverize em and flush em down a sewer. Then they might put in a call to Zellicow for a committee to tune up some myths.

  94. Marcus says:
    @woodNfish

    Also Ruby Ridge: Randy Weaver’s wife, infant son, and even dog killed by the FBI as retaliation for him refusing to be an informant.

    • Replies: @woodNfish
  95. @Robert Magill

    I found her website several years ago – very thought-provoking stuff indeed. One does have to wonder where all that concrete and steel went, because the resulting pile of rubble didn’t contain it. Also of interest are the many photos of the dozens of randomly toasted cars all over the place.

    One thing I always remind myself is that by definition, the ratio of what we don’t know to what we do know is infinity : 1.

  96. woodNfish says:
    @Marcus

    Yes, I haven’t forgotten them either. I also haven’t forgotten the attempt at revenge by McVeigh.

  97. Art says:

    Hmm?

    Besides the possibility that Calley and Iskandar’s ID cards and credit cards were planted by the FBI, a similar question has been ignored by the state sponsored press and authorities the day after 9/11 when miraculously the unscathed passport of Satam Al Suqami, one of the alleged 19 Arab terrorists, turned up several blocks from Ground Zero.

    Although ABC News and the Associated Press played up the importance of the Suqami passport, linking 9/11 to the Arab hijackers, serious questions were never raised in the press or by the 9/11 Commission as to the credibility and authenticity of the find.

    http://rense.com/general68/mrev.htm

  98. @peacenik

    “. . . neither before nor since 9/11 have fires caused
    the total collapse of a steel-framed high-rise

    If you intend to contradict my statement, then contradict my statement. I wrote: ““That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known, and readily demonstrable”.

    At no point in time have I written that such an event has taken place in a high-rise building. High-rise building fires are not commonplace, and fire-caused collapse of a high-rise building even less so. However, if you wish to read the NIST report on the collapse of Bldg. 7, it is available. Go find it. I do not fetch for shouting, angry conspiracy theorists.

  99. Dot says:

    “When it comes to 9/11, I have been reluctant to enter the fray largely because I do not have the scientific and technical chops to seriously assess how buildings collapse or how a large passenger airliner might be completely consumed by a fire.”
    Do you really need “scientific or technical chops” to analyze why Building 7 collapsed? That’s the smoking gun they call a ‘no brainer’.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @MarkinLA
  100. @edNels

    Today if you had a million really threatening crowd of protesters that had blood in their eye, they would be liquidated. They would be treated like Tianamin square protesters were.

    Worse. The enormous intelligence apparatus that is the US government’s enforcement operation would identify all participants, and either “disappear” all records of their existence on earth, or smear them as traitors.

  101. edNels says:
    @Fred Reed

    Do we get to select a few to answer?

    Were the Towers destroyed by a controlled demolition?

    yes_X__no___Don’t know___
    Call a spade a spade, has anybody not seen video or first hand observed controlled demolition? What’s it look like to ya Buckwheat?

    Did aircraft hit the the Towers?

    yes_X__no___Don’t know___
    surplus aircraft painted, dolled up, refitted and remotely controlled. That really doesn’t stress ones imagination does it? though to say it out loud is UnPC.

    If so, who flew them?

    __ Pobably some doofus kid that thought he was playing a new computer game, only it wasn’t.__________ Don’t know__

    Essay question: Why both controlled demolition and aircraft? Ignore this question if the two were not used together

    That’s real simple, one was to do the job and the other was to make a dramatic show piece appearance to hide the other, as obvious as it was, and it works pretty damned good too, for those who can’t think out the box…!

    Essay question: If a controlled demolition, describe the placement and quantities needed, and the source of your information.

    That’s over my ”pay grade” Jackson. But suffice it to say, a lot less than you think, when there’s attention to detail about how and where the placement is optimized by … those who know, aided by unlimited funds to accomplish it. The of the best if twisted minds, could do it, and again use of deceptive cover operations like retrofitting the ”fire retardants in the void areas where access to main columns and other structures could be had.

    Additionallyt a point of interest is that you apparently had a group of very questionable ”Live work” artists” with 24/7 access who were on a video making a wooden porch out of a window high up, and having photos made from a (rented helicopter), nice if you can pull a permit for that, don’t you think?

    As for sources here, it all comes from a mellange of videos, comments, common sense, and hypothetical extropolations yet to be defined per se.

  102. @Rurik

    New Yorkers should be grateful for serendipitous fringe benefits.

    perhaps the most cynical thing I’ve ever read (and that’s saying a lot!)

    Why, thanks! That’s quite a compliment, and I wasn’t even trying. What was Bierce’s Devil’s Dictionary entry? Cynic, n: a blackguard whose faulty vision sees things as they are, not as they ought to be.

    I’m guessing you don’t think there’s anything cynical about Conspiracy Theory?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  103. Miro23 says:

    A key to instant identification of the faith-based C-theorist is the loud claim that “steel-framed buildings” don’t collapse as a result of fire. Fact is, yes they do — known, verified, fully-explained using real, verifiable data.

    Here’s a list of steel framed high rises and other high rises that experienced major fires:

    – One New York Plaza, New York. 50 stories steel. Dropped beams on 33rd & 34th floors.
    – Alexis Nihon Plaza, Montreal. 15 stories steel. Partial collapse on 11th floor.
    – Windsor Tower, Madrid. 29 stories steel/concrete. Partial collapse.
    – One Meridian Plaza, Philadelphia. 38 stories. No collapse.
    – Broadgate Phase 8, London. 14 stories. No collapse.
    – First Interstate Bank, Los Angeles. 62 stories. No collapse.
    – MGM Grand Hotel, Las Vegas. 26 stories. No collapse.
    – Joelma Building, Sao Paulo. 25 stories. No collapse.
    – Andraus Building, Sao Paulo. 31 stories. No collapse.

    These fires were much longer lasting and more intense than the WTC fires and none of these buildings experienced a complete collapse.
    Can you give a list of modern steel frame 20 storey+ buildings similar to WTC 1, 2 & 7 that have experienced a complete collapse due to fire – known and verified.

    • Replies: @Mark F.
    , @MarkinLA
  104. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Fred Reed

    Poor Fred. Has to scrape a living as a pathetic agent of cognitive infiltration, muddying the waters over 9/11.

    The answer to Fred’s silly questions, incidentally, is this: No, you don’t have to be an anti-Semite to say that three WTC buildings were destroyed on 9/11 with explosives.

  105. MarkinLA says:
    @John McFarland

    In a controlled demolition the charges do not actually bring down the building. That is why there is a delay between the charges going off and the building collapsing. The charges weaken the superstructure just enough that the building can no longer stand and gravity brings the building down. There are usually cross members installed to help pull the outer walls into the center so there is less chance of debris going off-site. Gravity is what brought the WTC down. Instead of a bunch of small charges it was the force of a massive battering ram raining down on the lower floors of the building.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @restless94110
  106. Mark F. says:
    @Miro23

    No, because the 2 WTC collapses were the first ones. So what? None of those other buildings had huge jets filled with fuel flying into them. To say the other fires were “similar” is false.

    Please explain how explosives were planted without anyone noticing. Any demolition expert can tell you that planting enough explosives to take down a huge building takes a long time and involves a lot of people doing stuff that is not easily hidden.

    And why bother with flying planes into the buildings if they are already going to come down with explosives? If “everyone knows” that planes flying into buildings can’t cause them to collapse, why do it? Just blow up the buildings. You would have killed many more people doing that.

  107. Ex-Saffer says:
    @TheJester

    You really need grand firework displays in these things to get them the attention they deserve.

    No, you don’t. Planes flying into skyscrapers and leaving a gaping fiery hole is spectacle enough. If anything, leaving the buildings in that condition standing and visible from miles around is more consistent with a well-thought-out conspiracy: no conspirator would consider the risky and surplus-to-requirements step of mining the buildings. An additional risk, which I’ve yet to hear anyone mention, is the utter unpredictability of what might happen to a building that has been primed to blow when it is struck by a plane travelling at high speed. A jet-fuel-loaded plane could conceivably DISABLE the explosives setup, leaving the building bulging with so much incriminating evidence you might as well just point at it and laugh.

    I have yet to see a single plausible reason why the building had to come down rather than merely be flown into. Care to provide one?

    • Replies: @restless94110
  108. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Dot

    Do you really need “scientific or technical chops” to analyze why Building 7 collapsed? That’s the smoking gun they call a ‘no brainer’.

    Analyzing the collapse of WTC7 is not a no-brainer, rather it’s a matter of Newtonian physics, something one might expect Fred to boast of understanding, but which he has to pretend to think in this case is irrelevant.

    So, sure, the collapse of WTC7 looked like a controlled demolition, but it’s the dynamics that prove it.

  109. MarkinLA says:
    @Dot

    The problem with all this “analysis” is that there is a lot of kinetic energy released by the collapsing buildings (WTC1 and 2) and nobody has any way to determine where it went and what damage it did. You have no way to estimate the amount of structural damage to the superstructure of the surrounding buildings (WTC 7) as the debris from the large buildings fans out and blows through the lower floors. The lower floors may be compromised to the point that they can no longer carry the weight of the upper floor and that is why the building would collapse from the bottom up.

  110. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @MarkinLA

    it was the force of a massive battering ram raining down on the lower floors of the building.

    Another misconception, based on an ignorance of so-called “high-school physics” which few Americans seem to have learned in high school.

    The “massive battering ram,” i.e., the section of the building above the point of aircraft impact, disintegrated in the first moments of the collapse under the equal and opposite action upon it of the structure below.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  111. MarkinLA says:
    @Miro23

    On thing you are forgetting is that there was a huge mass above the impact point on both WTC1 and WTC2. There likely would have been no collapse if the plane had just hit the top 4 floors of the buildings. The failure was caused by a huge mass above the impact point acting as a battering ram on the floors below the impact point. The kinetic energy of an object is multiplied by its velocity squared so the power of that ram was such that nothing was going to stop it once it got moving.

    • Replies: @Miro23
    , @restless94110
  112. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Mark F.

    All the usual denier rubbish coming out here. Let’s take a look at the latest:

    If “everyone knows” that planes flying into buildings can’t cause them to collapse, why do it? Just blow up the buildings. You would have killed many more people doing that.

    But practically no one in America does know “that planes flying into buildings can’t cause them to collapse.”

    Americans know virtually nothing whatever about Newtonian dynamics, which is why, if you wanted to fake a terrorist attack on New York, you might well consider having “terrorists” fly planes into buildings, while insuring that the buildings collapse by the detonation of pre-positioned explosives. But obviously, you cannot just blow the building up, since then you’d be unable to point to the “terrorists” to be framed as the culprits.

    And flying planes into the buildings makes the event so much more horrific, especially with those impossible recorded cell phone calls to Mum, wife or lover, and therefore, so much more effective as a pretext for $6 trillion-and-rising wars of imperial aggression.

  113. Miro23 says:

    I have repeatedly noted that the Commission investigators failed to look into the potential foreign government involvement in the events that took place that day. Israel, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan just for starters may have been involved in or had knowledge relating to 9/11 but the only investigation that took place, insofar as I can determine, was a perfunctory look at the possible Saudi role, the notorious 28 pages, which have recently been released in a redacted form.

    It might have been worth checking out Israel a bit more closely. They have been running False Flag operations against the British and the US for years, aimed at engaging them in war against Arab states. For example:

    The Irgun bombing of the King David Hotel (headquarters of the British Mandate Government of Palestine) in which Zionists dressed as Arabs placed milk churns filled with explosives against the main columns of the building killing 91 people and injuring 44. Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu attended a celebration to commemorate the event.

    Operation Susannah (Lavon Affair) where Israeli operatives impersonating Arabs bombed British and American cinemas, libraries and educational centres in Egypt to destabilize the country and keep British troops committed to the Middle East.

    Or on June 8th 1967, the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty with unmarked aircraft and torpedo boats. 34 men were killed and 171 wounded, with the attack in international waters following nine hours of close surveillance. When the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime. Original plan to blame the sinking with all lives lost on the Egyptians and draw the US into the 6 Day War.

    Or Israelis and U.S. Zionists appearing all over the more recent WTC 9/11 “Operation” with Israelis once again impersonating Arabs in a historic deception/terror action of a type that carries a lot of kudos with old ex-terrorist Likudniks. In any event, Israelis were sent to film the historic day (as they later admitted on Israeli TV), with the celebrations including photos of themselves with a background of the burning towers.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @L.K
  114. I sense a great deal of anger, fury even, from C-Theorists. NIST’s explanation is pure hell to disprove. Faith is important. Ya gotta have faith.

    It’s like the Flight 93 legend. C-Theorists say it could NOT have happened — there was no such plane, just a crater.

    The bodies of the purported passengers? Planted by CIA/FBI/NSA/Seekrut Agents.

    The CGI versions are noteworthy. How did people on the ground, and at least two pilots, see those CGI jets?

  115. Did a quick google…there are at least 4 blogs by engineers-physcists ripping to shreds the Claims of Steven Jones made in The European Journal of Physics. 9/11 Truthers were allowed to respond and as usual got their asses liked in during the debate.

    The passengers of the Shanksville crash magically disappeared out from the passenger jet….or were never there in the first place.

    God how I hate the 9/11 Truthers…..Professor Fetzler is psychopath who abuses his priveledge of being a tenured university professor.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @restless94110
  116. Pearl Harbour ad Tonkin. Don’t forget the “Maine” and Fort Sumter.

    • Replies: @mcohen
  117. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I honestly don’t understand how anyone could believe, even for an instant, that an operation of the magnitude of 911 could possibly have been undertaken by a handful of Arabs directed from a cave in Afghanistan. A war comedy movie, yes, but not reality.

  118. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    had those 1400-foot structures swayed, and come down laterally

    Gravity points down. Skyscrapers don’t topple unless their lower structure is asymmetrically destroyed.

  119. Miro23 says:
    @MarkinLA

    Buildings of this type are designed to withstand jet impacts which they did very effectively on the day. The structure of an airliner is laughably flimsy (aluminium) in comparison with the massive structural steel columns of the WTC buildings. The jets knocked out the partition walls between the offices and produced a fireball of jet fuel that quickly burned off (black smoke) with nothing there at all to threaten the structure.

    Photo evidence tells a different story, showing in fact that the structural beams were cut, and that this was done simultaneously on all the pillars (including the completely cold ones untouched by fire) in the traditional CD way using placed charges.

  120. @anonymous

    Anon

    It is absolutely urgent that you contact the MIT Engineering Department about your earth shattering discovery about the only way tall buildings can collapse…We don’t want the tenured faculty of MIT Mechanical Engineering to deprive the MIT structural engineering students about 9/11 Truther Euler Beam Buckling Theory!!!

  121. mcohen says:
    @Rehmat

    i love a good 911 conspiracy theory argument on the net.better than faulty towers for laughs.america the exceptional cannot grasp that its enemies would …..dare i say it……fight back.
    the russians control the no fly zone in syria.

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  122. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    9 11 The Truth In 5 Minutes James Corbett

    9/11 Trillions: Follow The Money

  123. MarkinLA says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I wouldn’t be talking about ignorance of physics and “equal and opposite action” if I was you. What matters is the mass being pulled straight down by the force of gravity and it’s velocity. It is still the same mass regardless of whether it has “disintegrated” or not. The only thing that matters is how much is ejected sideways and no longer lands on the lower floors. From the pictures and all the caterwauling about “it looks like a controlled demolition” there isn’t much ejected sideways.

    Let me try and explain what would happen if at the impact point the main superstructure could no longer carry the mass above it. The top part of the building would come down as a unit and the floor above the impact point and the floor below would smash against each other causing a lot of damage to the lower floor. The lower floor still has to carry the weight of the upper floors PLUS the kinetic energy of the part of the building coming down. If it can do so maybe the top part just topples over leaving the lower floors basically intact, or if you are lucky a big useless mess at the top. If it can’t that floor is sheared off adding to the mass of the ram and adding to the kinetic energy of the falling mass as well. Now the second floor above the impact point smashes into the mass and it either withstands the load or is also sheared off adding to the mass.

  124. “… For the first time a presidential candidate, admittedly from a fringe party, is calling for a reexamination of 9/11 …”

    So what? These stupid/corrupt idiots are members of the climate sect!
    If “experts” say aliens did 9/11 they will believe it.

  125. Old fogey says:
    @Alfred1860

    Pardon me, but 7 (seven) buildings were demolished, all of which had the designation WTC on their names. None (zero) of the buildings surrounding the site were destroyed, though one was damaged seriously. The carefully-designed “bathtub” under the towers, which kept the water from the harbor from damaging that very expensive part of lower Manhattan, was also not damaged. The precision of the destruction was amazing. I commend Judy Wood for the work she has done on these matters.

  126. @Miro23

    Miro

    Your just making shit up to promote your 9/11 Truther psychosis….

    You a raising sewage that has been for been refuted for 15 years…hint:it’s what you leave out…among other things Truthers lie by omission…15 years and you still blathering on about nonsense that was refuted in great detail by engineers and physicist one month after 9/11…

    One can find very easily dozens of debates with 9/11 Truthers about the very point you just raised in You Tube debates with 9/11 Truthers….9/11 Truthers always running away shrieking with there tails behind their legs…

  127. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I sense a great deal of anger, fury even, from C-Theorists. NIST’s explanation is pure hell to disprove. Faith is important. Ya gotta have faith.

    It’s like the Flight 93 legend. C-Theorists say it could NOT have happened — there was no such plane, just a crater.

    I see a lot of bollocks from the defenders of the Bush/Clinton version of 9/11 history and physics.

    But the non-existence of Flight 93 is a true novelty. Never heard that one before. Perhaps, JJ, you could give us some references to confirm that someone somewhere is sufficiently ill-informed to actually have claimed that no such flight existed.

    The generally understood view, as everyone but JJ Smith probably knows, is that Flight 93 was either forced down during a struggle between the plucky “Let’s roll” crowd on board, or it was shot down by the USAF, the latter seemingly the most probably explanation since there was no apparent evidence of a crashed airliner at the alleged crash site. On the other hand, there were multiple eyewitness reports of a military aircraft in the area at the time of the crash and of debris strewn for miles in the vicinity of Shanksville, PA.

    This is getting to be fun. Any more bollocks, JJ? Or anyone?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  128. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    anything cynical about Conspiracy Theory?

    it depends on which one you’re talking about..

    the conspiracy theory that has Osama and his nineteen henchmen doing 9/11 or the conspiracy theory that has elements at the highest levels of the Pentagon and Fecal government doing 9/11. Both are conspiracy theories, so which conspiracy theory do you adhere to?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  129. MarkinLA says:
    @Miro23

    It doesn’t matter that an aircraft is “flimsy” or made of aluminum. What matters is that it has a significant mass and it is traveling at high velocity. Kinetic energy is the energy of an object in motion and is calculated as 1/2 X mass X vel0city X velocity (velocity squared). The plane slamming into the building caused a lot of physical damage to the structure and a lot of that kinetic energy is converted to heat energy as well. In addition, there could be things like magnesium on a aircraft that burns hot enough to melt steel. Add up the physical damage, the changes to the characteristics of the steel, any damage moving the center of gravity of the top portion of the building away from its center and you can have stresses that slowly build to the point that the building is going to come down.

    When an armor piercing bullet blows through a piece of armor plate it does so by melting the steel at the impact point. When the bullet hits the steel, it compresses it which causes it to heat to red hot and the remaining energy of the bullet forces the the molten steel out of its way. US Anti-tank rounds are just darts of depleted uranium or tungsten that burn through a tanks armor in this way showering the enemy tank crew with molten metal and burning them to death.

    Have you ever seen pictures of engineering collapses like a crane or something. In many cases, everybody runs like hell before anything happens because everybody has heard the telltale sign of a major failure and they know it is just a matter of time before it collapses. But it takes time for that failure to move through the system as stress fractures build up when the load is transferred from point to point.

    • Replies: @Miro23
  130. AnalogMan says:
    @Fred Reed

    So, let me see if I follow your argument.

    If you don’t know all the answers, then you know nothing.

    If you know nothing, then the 9/11 Commission report is correct in all respects.

    Q.E.D.

    I used to enjoy your writing, but lately you seem to have lost the plot. It’s no disgrace; dementia comes to all who live long enough.

    We don’t need to know every detail of who did what, and how, and who knew about it. All we need is one obvious lie to discredit the official story. Start with Building 7. No we don’t know exactly what happened. Obviously, there are many hypotheses, and some of them are crazy. So is the official story.

    All we are asking for is an honest investigation, with the results published and the guilty punished.

    • Replies: @Oldeguy
    , @jacques sheete
  131. mcohen says:
    @Marcus

    you see …what did i tell …911 kkkonspiracy is better than faulty towers for laughs.hydro phobia is classic.but what about faultytowerphobia.

  132. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    The bodies of the purported passengers? Planted by CIA/FBI/NSA/Seekrut Agents.

    what bodies?

    there were no bodies, and no luggage and no plane

    you’re flailing around at phantoms, conjuring bodies and jousting at air

  133. @MarkinLA

    MarkLA

    And add in the fact that the steel support beams only had to be softened not melted to cause catastrophic structural failure. The structural engineers who designed the TT admit that they did not take into account burning jet fuel in the scenarios they came up with for the possible collapse scenarios of the TT back in the late 1960-searly 70′s. Engineering deadlines-lead-time issues-constraints have a way of making engineers screen out certain possible future scenarios.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @restless94110
  134. mcohen says:
    @Clyde Wilson

    and what about fort apache,and the uss useless.

  135. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    Did a quick google…there are at least 4 blogs by engineers-physcists ripping to shreds the Claims of Steven Jones made in The European Journal of Physics. 9/11 Truthers were allowed to respond and as usual got their asses liked in during the debate.

    I wouldn’t want anyone to have “liked” my ass, so I’m glad not to have participated in that discussion.

    Perhaps you would assist everyone here by articulating, first, the claims by Professor Steven E. Jones, that you refer to, and then explaining, briefly, how to the best of your understanding, those claims were “ripped to shreds.”

    I’d frankly be surprised if you can do it, even with the aid of those engineer-physcist [sic] bloggers, since Professor Jones is a respected scientist, author of multiple publications in top science journals such as Nature, for example.

    But let’s see.

  136. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Rurik

    you’re flailing around at phantoms, conjuring bodies and jousting at air

    LOL. But give the lad a chance. He’s just trying out at this propaganda gig. He’ll no doubt get better if we give him a real work out.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  137. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    add in the fact that the steel support beams only had to be softened not melted to cause catastrophic structural failure.

    You are absolutely correct about that. If the beams had melted, or even softened, then the building would have collapsed. But not straight down at near free-fall speed into its own footprint, while crushing all the concrete to dust.

    If the columns had melted, or merely softened, they would not have melted or softened uniformly across the the building, so the result would have been an asymetric collapse resulting in the top of the building toppling over and crashing onto the roof of adjacent buildings. The portion of the building beneath the fire zone would have been left standing.

    But, as we know, nothing like that happened.

  138. @edNels

    “Today if you had a million really threatening crowd of protesters that had blood in their eye, they would be liquidated. They would be treated like Tianamin square protesters were.”

    Well, it would surely make it clear what our nation has become if that were to happen. So what you’re saying is, “I’m outgunned, so I volunteer to give up my liberty without even protesting.”

    What is the point about whining about 911 truth then?

  139. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @MarkinLA

    I wouldn’t be talking about ignorance of physics and “equal and opposite action” if I was you.

    “If I was you” I’d learn the difference between the past tense and the conditional tense. But that’s just me.

    What matters is the mass being pulled straight down by the force of gravity and it’s velocity. It is still the same mass regardless of whether it has “disintegrated” or not.

    Oh, yes, so you think that a shower of dust was all it took to bring down the towers.

    The only thing that matters is how much is ejected sideways and no longer lands on the lower floors. From the pictures and all the caterwauling about “it looks like a controlled demolition” there isn’t much ejected sideways.

    No there’s not much ejected sideways, except about 99% as shown in this image. But look, physics isn’t a sort of do-it-yourself thing that you make up as you go along. Do try to understand what those qualified people such as David Chandler or Steven Jones who you ridicule are saying. They have actually studied physics.

  140. peacenik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    “That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known . . .”

    Well-known?! Really?! On what evidence do you base your statement? You are just making things up . . . so I will say it again: you are a bare-faced liar!

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  141. Miro23 says:
    @MarkinLA

    The question is about the official “collapse due to fire” story, with these buildings not showing the characteristics of fire induced failure in any way.

    No deformations, whole building not consumed by fire, no asymmetric movement, no partial weakness or large sections of the structure remaining intact.

    However they did show all the features of a controlled demolition: Sudden onset of collapse, collapse in seconds, descent without resistance, steel structure broken up, nothing left standing, symmetrical least resistance fall pattern and visible explosions in the main destruction zones.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  142. @CanSpeccy

    Canspeccy

    Keystroke mistake from blurry vision(diabetic).

  143. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Meet Lucky Larry

  144. @Intelligent Dasein

    Actually, the existence of weak-minded fools like yourself is the reason States, always comprising a small minority, are able to wield over much larger numbers of people (sheeple really).

  145. @War for Blair Mountain

    9/11 truthers couldn’t even get it right on the physics-engineering behind the collapse of the Twin Towers. If they can’t get this right…everything else that comes after-ignore.

    NIST can’t get it right either. (“google” it ..)

    Dude or dudet as it may be, whoever you are, you are as transparent as the lying scum that perpetrated and cover up this event.

    Take your pick:9/11 Truthers are 1)psychotic delusions….or 2)repellant sociopaths with a very nasty political agenda…..these are the only two options.

    Option 3. You are a low life paid shill of our oppressors.

  146. @John Jeremiah Smith

    People who readily resort to name-calling and insults are typically on the losing side of argument.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  147. @CanSpeccy

    But the non-existence of Flight 93 is a true novelty. Never heard that one before. Perhaps, JJ, you could give us some references to confirm that someone somewhere is sufficiently ill-informed to actually have claimed that no such flight existed.

    Makes ya spitting mad, don’t it, Candide?

    See msg 95, by Alfred 1860…here, I’ll fetch for ya:

    “Nobody on this board knows exactly how the THREE towers came down, who did it, or the motivation behind it. A Boeing 757 with a 124′ wingspan certainly did not hit the Pentagon, nor did one crash in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania – this is blatantly obvious to anyone with eyes.”

    • Replies: @Stonehands
  148. utu says:
    @Johnny F. Ive

    “Waco was a horrible crime.” – Yes, it was. This crime is reenacted daily on installments. About 1000 people are killed by police with impunity every year. What’s the difference? Americans are used to it and desensitized. Authorities have right to kill people in America.

  149. @anonymous

    had those 1400-foot structures swayed, and come down laterally

    Gravity points down. Skyscrapers don’t topple unless their lower structure is asymmetrically destroyed.

    You mean, like if the seekrutly-planted demolition on the lower floors had detonated early, out of the seekrutly-planned sequence?

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
  150. @iffen

    It is interesting to contrast the “holocaust”, where even the most absurd eyewitness testimony is taken as sacrosanct and beyond reproach, with events like 9-11 (or OKC, etc.) where eyewitness testimony contradicting the official account is dismissed as “unreliable”.

    • Replies: @iffen
  151. @Rurik

    anything cynical about Conspiracy Theory?

    Both are conspiracy theories, so which conspiracy theory do you adhere to?

    Which one is more cynical?

    • Replies: @Stonehands
    , @Rurik
  152. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Introduction to “Political Ponerology”

    INTRODUCTION

    “Experience has taught the author that evil is similar to disease in nature, although possibly more complex and elusive to our understanding. Its genesis reveals many factors, pathological, especially psychopathological, in character, whose essence medicine and psychology have already studied… [A] comprehension of the essence and genesis of evil generally makes use of data from [biology, medicine, and psychology]. Philosophical reflection alone is insufficient.” (Lobaczewski, 98)

    Like a color blind man incapable of distinguishing red from green, a small minority of the human population cannot experience or fully comprehend the normal range of human emotions. And like those color blind who may conceal their condition by using the correct words while not understanding their meaning (e.g., the top traffic light is “red”, the bottom is “green”) – so does this minority conceal their condition by playacting an emotion’s exterior signs (facial expressions, exclamations, body language). However, they do not actually experience the emotion in question. Their deception is revealed in the laboratory, where they respond to words like DEATH, CANCER, DISEASE, as if they were DAY, CREAM, or PAPER. They lack the ability to comprehend the emotional “punch” that certain words contain. They use others’ emotional reactions as cues, and they adjust their behavior to portray the correct ‘emotional’ behavior. (Hare, 129-30)

    These individuals are known as psychopaths. Not only can they not feel the pain of others, they often seem to deliberately cause others pain. Lobaczewski refers to this disorder as an “essential psychopathy” to distinguish them from others with deficits in their genetic/instinctual endowment, essential psychopathy being the most severe and disturbing.

    Many so-called “antisocial individuals” acquire similar characteristics in their life-time, whether caused by brain damage to certain areas of the brain, or functionally, because of close contact with and influence by such individuals. Lobaczewski terms such individuals characteropaths. The vast majority of both these groups cannot change. The acts that we call evil (especially on a macrosocial level) can be traced back to this deviant minority of human beings and the effects of their actions on their family, friends, and society.

    http://ponerology.com/

    • Replies: @edNels
    , @WorkingClass
  153. @CanSpeccy

    That’s true, Stephen Jones had I suppose a respectable scientific career. But his nanothermite study was torn to shreds by spectroscopy experts…a very detailed critique of the nanothermite study spectroscopy claims.

    Brian Josephson won the Nobel Prize in physics for his deep insight into semiconductor tunneling….nothwistanding, Brian Josephson is considered a crackpot among his colleagues for his “physics” explanation of Uri Geller’s telekinetic spoon bending. 9/11 Truth Scientist Judy Wood isn’t to far off from Josephson’s crackpottery. It is amusing to see the 9/11 Truther Scientists publicly trash each other over their claims as to how the TT collapse….and since you are most definitely channeling the psychotic Dr Judy Wood…PH.D. in structural engineering…well what does that make you? I mean Stephen Jones even thinks Judy Wood is a crackpot…Crackpots calling each other crackpots…I think we got a bona fide Monty Python skit here….

    Julian Schwinger has some interesting things to say about Cold Fusion….Schwinger is probably wrong…but for interesting reasons…

  154. @Che Guava

    There are parallels with Pearl Harbor, certainly, to facilitate a war that otherwise wouldn’t have occurred. But there is also parallel with Hiroshima, namely a weapons test meant to intimidate potential foreign adversaries.

    • Replies: @Che Guava
  155. iffen says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    The interesting contrast is between tens of thousands of witnesses as opposed to a handful.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  156. Rehmat says:
    @mcohen

    YES – criminals have the habit of calling people ‘conspiracy theorists’ who pull their dirty pants down.

    In August 2016, Russian REN-TV aired a new short film blaming Zionist Jews for committing the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001.

    The film is claimed to be an updated version of a 2012 film which blamed Jews for committing various disasters such as the Sinking of the Titanic, a Rockefeller-Morgan conspiracy in order to create an international crisis, Chernobyl nuclear disaster in 1986 (here), and the 9/11.

    The film claims that Muslim Arabs were unjustly blamed for the September 11, 2001 attacks. Watch below an interview with Zionist prime minister Ehud Barak below showing the pre-knowledge of what is going to happen to Iraq, Libya, Syria, and Iran in the future.

    The commentators said the film was made to prove what is happening in the world today is exactly as predicted in the notorious The Protocols of the Elders of Zion published in Russia in 1903, which purports to be the leaked master plan for Jewish world domination….

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/08/23/russian-tv-jews-did-911/

  157. @Rurik

    The bodies of the purported passengers? Planted by CIA/FBI/NSA/Seekrut Agents.

    what bodies?
    there were no bodies, and no luggage and no plane
    you’re flailing around at phantoms, conjuring bodies and jousting at air

    Do a little more research. Most of the flight 93 bodies were identified and sent to their kin to be buried. I believe it was 8 that were unidentifiable — they are buried in Shanksville.

    How come I know more about this than you professional C-Theorists? Other than my BIL working as a CIA analyst, who let slip that Flight 93 was shot down?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  158. peacenik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    “I sense a great deal of anger, fury even, from C-Theorists. NIST’s explanation is pure hell to disprove.”

    NIST’s explanation (that Building 7 collapsed due to office fires) is a load of bull that any high school student can disprove! Office fires never get hot enough to melt steel! And even if they did, you wouldn’t the symmetrical collapse that so evidently happened!

    The truth is out and no amount of BS rationalization is going to change the facts! So give it a rest, will you?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  159. @peacenik

    “That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known . . .”

    Well-known?! Really?! On what evidence do you base your statement? You are just making things up . . . so I will say it again: you are a bare-faced liar!

    And you are a credulous fool. Done with the name-calling yet? I’m good at it.

    Yes, the above fact is well-known by civil and structural engineers. That you would not know it is not altogether surprising.

    • Replies: @peacenik
  160. @Beefcake the Mighty

    People who readily resort to name-calling and insults are typically on the losing side of argument.

    Not really — pretty much 50/50, imo. Did you include yourself in the “dumbass” group for some good reason? Maybe aliens from Proxima Centauri used a seekrut raygun to collapse the WTC?

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  161. @peacenik

    The truth is out and no amount of BS rationalization is going to change the facts! So give it a rest, will you?

    LOL. You are absolutely correct. No amount of BS rationalization is going to change the facts!

  162. @John Jeremiah Smith

    “You mean, like if the seekrutly-planted demolition on the lower floors had detonated early, out of the seekrutly-planned sequence?”

    The shit above the crippling blast would still have fallen straight down from its CG above in absence of a meaningful force to torque it to the side. Ever wonder why so many people drop trees on their houses?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  163. Sam Shama says:

    So here goes: [quick writing so pardon any obvious errors]

    On 9/11, at least three commercial airliners with passengers took off for various destinations. These planes were then quickly taken over by special agents – “elements of the administration, CIA, NSA, Mossad”- commandeered to a secret location -naturally, this secret destination, deep underground and built for this very purpose years earlier was a small replica of the USAF central command – where passengers and crew were disembarked, liquidated, or, set up with new identities spirited away to lives at sunny destinations accompanied by drinks with little umbrellas stuck on cherries. On the whole, one would pick the liquidation option, given the participation of Anglo-Judaics of prudent stock raised in the habits of parsimony. The planes were thereafter switched on for fully remote-controlled flight. There had been some discussion whether aircraft need be used at all; alternative c-g imagery being quite available with a decade having passed since Jurassic Park, but the genuine articles won the day owing to the curmudgeons “higher-up” prevailing over the millennials in the circle.

    The reader is to be reminded that the purpose of the operation was to create an incident sufficient in magnitude so as to unleash the public’s wrath and the consequent dogs of war – GW and Cheney never tired of reminding the plotters of this essential bit. The millennials thought it ample persuasion, crashing the planes with the ensuing fires, but as usual the curmudgeons weren’t having any of it. The financial aspect was strangely missing. Someone knew Larry Silverstein. Calls had been made and payoffs negotiated with no agreement for months. Larry even threatened to call off the entire thing, noting that his share was insufficient, given the overtime he’d have to pay the demolition crew. Goldman Sachs was brought in, valuations simulated for days and the figure of $4.55B was obtained. Goldman took the customary 5%. The millennials had been making some noise about the plane crashes possibly disengaging the controlled demolition charges. This was roundly dismissed by the curmudgeons who advised the Mills to stop faffing about and get back to video games.

    So the remotely operated planes re-taking off from the secret pacific Island unerringly made their ways to the WTC, the Pentagon, and, the White House. Midway through the flights, it was discovered that the First Lady and important VIPs including the POTUS’ canines were still at 1600 Penn Ave. GWB understandably threw a fit and threatened Texan reprisals. The problem was easily solved as it only required a flight diversion to a field in rural PA. Millennials quite cannily concocted “Let’s Roll”. Trade-marked tee-shirts with the banner fetched handsome and continuing revenues.

    End of Part I.

    P.S. : Are we to have a citizens’ inquiry? If so, I hereby nominate R&R as co-chairs.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @CanSpeccy
    , @Rurik
  164. @CanSpeccy

    What matters is the mass being pulled straight down by the force of gravity and it’s velocity. It is still the same mass regardless of whether it has “disintegrated” or not.

    Oh, yes, so you think that a shower of dust was all it took to bring down the towers.

    Ah, I find your misunderstanding of this very interesting. Perhaps it explains a lot of the C-Theorists’ type of wackiness.

    One hundred tons of dust weighs 100 tons. It is the same mass, dust or not.

    But, you don’t get that, do you? Interesting.

    Oh, well. This is enough for this time around with you nutcakes. I am uncomfortable remembering the adage that arguing with a fool proves only that there are two.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  165. Re; Jeremiah John Smith, & “aliens from Proxima Centauri use of seekrut raygun to collapse Towers.”

    Very cool!
    One thing for sure, the 19- fanatical “ragheads” did not collapse the Twin (+1) Towers on 9-11.

    America’s enemy #1 is a global criminal cartel and not a religion.

    Unfortunately, the former-U.S.A. must now wait for the next (False Flag) seekrut-shoe to drop, and it does not look good for the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    Refer to WSJ article (below) written by a fellow who writes for a Proxima Centauri Think (Ahead) Tank!

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/by-all-means-take-mosul-but-1477263327

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  166. According the 9/11 Truther structural engineering experts the Loizeaux Family(America’s favorite Demolition Family!!!)-who have decisively refuted the 9/11 Truther claims about a controlled demolition taking down the TT and Building 7-are part of the vast cover-up conspiracy, and therefore must be telekinetically mind controlled by the translucent glowing corpse of Prescott Bush down in the Dark Dank Basement of Yale’s Skull and Bones House!!!!!

    • Replies: @Si1ver1ock
    , @RaceRealist88
  167. Ex-Saffer says:

    I took a look at the NIST WTC7 report. The first thing that struck me is that it was put together largely to make recommendations to prevent a repeat of what happened to Building 7. See, this is an example of real-world scientists solving real-world problems. They know that there are legions of schoolboys out there who will quickly detect that their report is “a load of bull,” but the scientists don’t care. The business at hand is to devise new building codes and regulations, and write them into law.

  168. I know one thing.

    An article about 9/11 is sure to get one hell of a lot of response.

    Solid GOLD clickbait!

  169. @The Alarmist

    The shit above the crippling blast would still have fallen straight down from its CG above in absence of a meaningful force to torque it to the side. Ever wonder why so many people drop trees on their houses?

    Because trees fall straight down, crumbling into the bottom of the trunk?

    If the bottom floor demolition charges detonated early, it is quite likely the building would fall to the side. However, I’ll make it easy. Suppose the charges on the bottom 3 floors only detonated on one side? Over she goes, and takes out half of downtown Manhattan. The vertical collapse was extremely fortuitous. The notion that experts in building takedowns would sneak around in closets and equipment rooms. planting C-4 and miles of wiring, all of which had to be concealed, and never tested? Perfect synchronization, never tested? Horseshit!

    So, the seekrut conspiracy spends six months planting demolition charges in the two towers — nobody notices from building engineering services? Getoutatown, that’s bullshit. Why plant charges in Bldg 7 at all? With the gubmint and CIA in there an all. Whuffo? And, detonate Bldg 7 eight hours later? Whuffo? Getoutatown, that’s bullshit.

    Look, for me to fuss with wackies is entertaining, but silly. I feel a little soiled, but there corned beef and cabbage on the table, served by a beautiful and interesting woman. C-ya.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @restless94110
  170. @Chuck Orloski

    Unfortunately, the former-U.S.A. must now wait for the next (False Flag) seekrut-shoe to drop, and it does not look good for the Islamic Republic of Iran.

    Yeah. Since Iran has been the primary source/instigator of all our troubles in the ME from the gitgo, ya gotta wonder about the constant hard-on for anything BUT Iran.

    Go figger.

    • Replies: @L.K
  171. edNels says:
    @Anon

    What about people who think in cartoon images. To these guys, a building can fall straight down nice as can be, no problem with the physics, they don’t really have spacial apperception, and really, to these it is construed more as a word problem, something that is solved in other dialectal ways. Importantly like your physco example, they will know how to mask their deficiencies, indeed, they have been trained by the system to work that device.

    In a culture based on larceny the crook is highly regarded… who said that in paraphse?

    Don’t ever put any trust in someone who is gullible and believes in fairy tales, they got a screw loose, and lack mental integrity.

    PS: that looks like a good book there.

  172. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    But his (Steven Jonesè) nanothermite study was torn to shreds by spectroscopy experts

    The lead author on the WTC dust/nanothermite journal article was the Danish scientist, Professor Neils Harritt. Harritt is a chemist and therefore the person whose expertise must chiefly be questioned if the published evidence of thermite in the WTC dust is to be challenged. I am unaware of any published study that refutes the above-linked Harritt et al. paper. Do you know of any such paper? If not, I doubt anyone has a basis for such a paper, since evidence to refute Harritt et al. would surely be highly publishable and would yield those responsible considerable kudos.

    But in any case, none of the arguments I have stated here is premised on the use of nanothermite in the destruction of the WTC. Nanothermite has been used in building demolition but only rarely I believe. Interestingly, NIST, which was contracted by the US Government to investigate the collapse of the WTC towers, has exceptional expertise with nanothermite.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  173. peacenik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Perhaps you can give everyone a reference to your so-called “. . . fact [that] is well-known by civil and structural engineers?

    Until you do that, it remains a statement of fact that you are a bare-faced liar!

  174. anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Sam Shama

    quick writing

    It shows.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @SolontoCroesus
  175. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    One hundred tons of dust weighs 100 tons. It is the same mass, dust or not.

    Yes, but before it became dust, it did not cause the towers to collapse, so why would it do so after transformation to dust? It could conceivably have done so only if it had a high downward acceleration and all of it impinged on the standing portion of the tower below the fire zone. But it is evident from videos of the collapsing towers that the dust was not, for the most part, driven explosively downward, but explosively in all directions. Thus, of the mass of dust created, a rather small percentage appears to have impinged on the tower below the fire zone.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  176. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sam Shama

    So here goes: [quick writing so pardon any obvious errors]

    “Any obvious errors”.

    LOL. The whole piece is drivel.

    Incidentally, there seems no reason to doubt that the passengers aboard the highjacked airliners did indeed die, since positive DNA identification of most if not all victims was made by, e.g., the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology DNA lab in Rockville, Md.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  177. Sam Shama says:
    @anonymous

    Still better than your own never ending Nazi propaganda :-)

    • Replies: @iffen
  178. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    But…but I thought you and fellow theorists claimed remotely controlled empty planes. Ah, the penny just dropped : DNA evidence was planted …….

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @SolontoCroesus
  179. KenH says:

    There’s nothing wrong with being skeptical of the government’s version of 9-11. The “9-11 happened just like the gubmint said it did or you are a demented truther” zealots seem to forget that “our” government not only withholds information from the citizenry but is pathologically dishonest. Some of these zealots question the government on other things but suddenly turn into pro-government goose steppers when the subject of 9-11 arises.

    To be sure there are some zany 9-11 theories such as the Freemasons or the Illuminati did it, but there are credible researchers and organizations who have raised very valid questions which should cast doubt on the official version. There are too many peculiarities and anomalies to simply slam the door shut on an event which has radically the changed the structure of our government and is potentially leading us to WWIII.

    Even FOX News reported that the DEA uncovered a plot by Mossad agents posing as art students who were following hijackers in the days leading up to 9-11-01. So at minimum Israel and perhaps elements of the U.S. and Saudi Arabian intelligence had foreknowledge of the event.

    Personally, I don’t see how nineteen Arabs can go from camels to the cockpits of jumbo jets. To my knowledge none of them had ever piloted a jumbo jet and you don’t go from training on single engine prop planes to flying jumbo jets will the dexterity of Chesly Sullenberger .

    Also see:
    My Journey: From Camel Jockey to Terrorist Mastermind and 9-11 Hijacker
    By: Mohammed “Mo” Atta

  180. Mulegino1 says:

    “Whenever you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains – however improbable – must be the truth.” Arthur Conan Doyle

    Commercial airliners, being mostly light, thin aluminum, largely hollow and ductile, are no match for gigantic structural steel perimeter box columns and concrete floor pans. Most of their components would have been shredded to pieces upon impact with the Twin Towers, and fallen to the street below the point of impact. (The story of the impact on the Pentagon by the “Boeing 757″ is so totally ridiculous it has, for all practical purposes, been relegated to the memory hole.)

    Neither hydrocarbon based fires initiated by jet fuel “fireballs” – nor “nanothermite” – have the energy available to cause most of the Twin Towers’ (and Building 6′s) steel and concrete cores to undergo molecular dissociation and blanket lower Manhattan as dust clouds, nor to create temperatures many times greater than those on the surface of the sun (bedrock and concrete were melted), nor to cause self-fueling underground fires which burned FOR MONTHS after 9/11.

    Commercial airliner impacts do not cause electromagnetic pulse effects, which occurred on 9/11, when the metallic components of automobiles in the immediate vicinity not struck by any debris nor close to any fires burst into flames.

    The official narrative of 9/11 is a very crude lie, concocted by non-specialist presstitutes and government hacks. It can only survive as a larger than life, meta-historical event. Once brought down to the level of physical fact and forensic scrutiny, it collapses.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  181. @Anon

    The acts that we call evil (especially on a macrosocial level) can be traced back to this deviant minority of human beings and the effects of their actions on their family, friends, and society.

    My kid sister was murdered by one of these freaks. It got my attention. I heard the cops joking about the defense putting him on the stand. Like the jury would take one look at him and convict him. These “deviants” have a huge advantage over normal people when it comes to accruing wealth and power. The higher you go the more prevalent they are. I don’t have the chops to write a political book. But I have the title. The Scum Also Rises.

    • Replies: @Alden
  182. The official government version of the 9/11 conspiracy is pure bunkum.

    Period.

    PS: Operation Northwoods.

  183. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Harritt is a chemist and therefore the person whose expertise must chiefly be questioned if the published evidence of thermite in the WTC dust is to be challenged.

    I am unaware of any published study that refutes the above-linked Harritt et al. paper. Do you know of any such paper?

    A chemist at the local drugstore tells us of a study he published in the subscription-based open journal of Chemistry at Timbuktu University. It demonstrated that gold is the output of subjecting iron to a precise temperature in an emulsion of natural gas. To put everything in a business footing, I’d suggest you to buy shares in the venture….

  184. Oldeguy says:
    @AnalogMan

    Pretty much my response. Something, I know not what, is amiss with Our Favorite Expatriate.
    Not being sure of what really happened in an event this pivotal is a reason to proceed with further discussion and investigation- not to shut it down.
    The most successful, by far, commando operation in history performed flawlessly by a bunch of guys with boxcutters directed by cell phone by a fugitive hiding out in a cave in Afghanistan ?
    On the the face of it, that matches the goofiest of any of the conspiracy theories.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  185. @War for Blair Mountain

    @War for Blair Mountain:

    Thousands of architects, engineers and physicists say you are wrong. Why not have a real forensic investigation and get to the bottom of the issue in a public forum? If it is as open a shut a case as you like to say, your side should win easily.

    Why is it wrong for us 911 Truthers to want accountability from our government officials? Why can’t you join with us in asking for a new investigation. For example:

    Why won’t the government release the tapes of the Pentagon?

    Was there a defense system in place to defend the Pentagon? Missile defense or something?

    Did it work? If not, why not?

    If you are an honest person who cares about the Truth, why not support an honest forensic investigation?

    Simply mocking people is not a valid argument.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  186. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sam Shama

    but I thought you and fellow theorists …

    So, you start from a mistaken assumption and you arrive, naturally, at a mistaken conclusion.

    I take responsibility only for my own statements. That there are crackpots who say this, that or the other is not my fault. To suggest that I am part of a fellowship of theorists is as unwarranted as my suggesting that you work for the Mossad or the CIA. Whereof one has no evidence, thereof one is wisest not to speak.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  187. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Si1ver1ock

    Simply mocking people is not a valid argument.

    Quite right. But it can be indicative — indicative of the lack of a valid argument.

  188. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Oldeguy

    On the the face of it, that [the theory about 19 guys with box-cutters under the direction of fugitive in a cave in Afghanistan] matches the goofiest of any of the conspiracy theories.

    And even the members of the 9/11 Commission have admitted they don’t really believe it.

    Thus:

    The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission (Thomas Keane and Lee Hamilton) said that the CIA (and likely the White House) “obstructed our investigation”.

    The co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission also said that the 9/11 Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission, and the Commission considered recommending criminal charges for such false statements, yet didn’t bother to tell the American people (free subscription required).

    Indeed, the co-chairs of the Commission now admit that the Commission largely operated based upon political considerations.

    9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton says “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history.

    9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey said that “There are ample reasons to suspect that there may be some alternative to what we outlined in our version . . . We didn’t have access . . . .”

    9/11 Commissioner Timothy Roemer said “We were extremely frustrated with the false statements we were getting”

    Former 9/11 Commissioner Max Cleland resigned from the Commission, stating: “It is a national scandal”; “This investigation is now compromised”; and “One of these days we will have to get the full story because the 9-11 issue is so important to America. But this White House wants to cover it up”.

    9/11 Commissioner John Lehman said that “We purposely put together a staff that had – in a way – conflicts of interest“.

    The Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission (John Farmer) who led the 9/11 staff’s inquiry, said “I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years…. This is not spin. This is not true.”

    Source

    • Agree: Miro23
  189. @MarkinLA

    Keep trying, Mark. You’ve captured the narrative, well done. Now go work on the physics.

  190. nsa says:

    What’s with all the kosher trolls here today…….did the aipac meeting let out early?

    • Replies: @Art
  191. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @anonymous

    Why would a large building being damaged by falling debris and fire be damaged completely symmetrically at the same time? Wouldn’t it be damaged asymmetrically? That’s why buildings have fire escapes, emergency exits, stairwells, etc., because in fires and structural accidents, the damage is generally asymmetrical.

  192. L.K says:
    @Chuck Orloski

    “Also, as a commentator recommended (above), it’s difficult for me to think you’re unaware of Christopher Bollyn’s careful research and findings codified in his book “Solving 9-11.”

    Yes, particularly since I myself, as well as others, have posted links to Bollyn’s work in the comment section of Giraldi’s articles before.

    Again;

    The online and free version of the book can be found @

    http://www.bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book

    Solving 9-11: The Deception That Changed the World Paperback – April 12, 2012
    by Christopher Lee Bollyn

    https://www.amazon.com/Solving-9-11-Deception-Changed-World/dp/0985322586/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1475962308&sr=8-1&keywords=solving+the+9-11+deception

    Mr.Bollyn paid quite a price for investigating the massive evidence of Israeli involvement in the 9-11 terror attacks. For example, after he started investigating an Israeli military’s aviation company spawned in the U.S, the aircraft leasing company ATASCO, he soon got into trouble; A few hours after talking to Shalom Yoran, the Israeli chairman of this now defunct Israeli company, Bollyn was paid a visit by three unidentified police officers, who:

    arrived at my house and, without cause or provocation, TASERed me and broke my elbow in front of my family on August 15, 2006.”

    • Agree: jacques sheete
  193. Art says:
    @iffen

    HdC: The entire holocaust fable relies on “eye witness testimony” which has been thoroughly debunked.

    Hey iffen,

    Did you see the video of the Mexican guy laughing at the Six Million Lie? It was infectious and hilarious — and so right on.

    He said it was “six million” then the “four million” at Auschwitz was reduced to “1.5 million” – but the total was still “six million” – then he busted out laughing. So funny. Even you would have to love the guy.

    Art

    p.s. There are 6,666 million good people out there who you maliciously call 88’s. You had their sympathy at one time – but no longer. You fooled them into letting you do bad things to the Palestinians. Now they no longer give a fig for your lie.

  194. L.K says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    John Jeremiah Smith “Since Iran has been the primary source/instigator of all our troubles in the ME from the gitgo”

    Let me help you a bit, fool… take my hand, so you don’t fall flat on your face & break that Pinocchio nose of yours, and let’s change your previous sentence just one bit, so that for once, you’ll get it right:

    “Since ISRAEL has been the primary source/instigator of all our troubles in the ME from the gitgo”

    Now you got it! Good boy.

  195. @John Jeremiah Smith

    The only real anger I see here is from people like you, with all the name-calling and insults.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  196. So who benefited from 9/11?

    Israel, America, etc. It’s mostly for Israel’s expansion for Greater Israel. Cause strife in the Middle East, cause migration. Go to war, have Americans and others fight and die for Israel, then Israel gets to expand. This all was a precursor for Greater Israel.

    http://www.unz.com/article/war-is-realizing-the-israelizing-of-the-world/

    • Replies: @iffen
  197. @iffen

    So, things like death by steam/electricity on conveyor belts, geysers of blood, human lamp shades, gas chambers with windows, etc.?

    • Replies: @iffen
  198. L.K says:

    Regarding the matter of whether or not bin Laden and ‘al-Qaeda’ were even capable of orchestrating the 9-11 Attacks, author and professor David Ray Griffin, wrote:

    For prosecutors to prove that defendants committed a crime, they must show that they had the ability (as well as the motive and opportunity) to do so.
    But several political and military leaders from other countries have stated that bin Laden and al-Qaeda simply could not have carried out the attacks.
    General Leonid Ivashov, who in 2001 was the chief of staff for the Russian armed forces, wrote:

    “Only secret services and their current chiefs—or those retired but still having influence inside the state organizations—have the ability to plan, organize and conduct an operation of such magnitude…Osama bin Laden and “Al Qaeda” cannot be the organizers nor the performers of the September 11 attacks. They do not have the necessary organization, resources or leaders.”

    Similar statements have been made by Andreas von Bülow, the former state secretary of West Germany’s ministry of defense, by General Mirza Aslam Beg, former chief of staff of Pakistan’s army, and even General Musharraf, the president of Pakistan until recently.[109]

    This same point was also made by veteran CIA agent Milt Bearden. Speaking disparagingly of “the myth of Osama bin Laden” on CBS News the day after 9/11, Bearden said: “I was there [in Afghanistan] at the same time bin Laden was there. He was not the great warrior.” With regard to the widespread view that bin Laden was behind the attacks, he said: “This was a tremendously sophisticated operation against the United States—more sophisticated than anybody would have ascribed to Osama bin Laden.” Pointing out that a group capable of such a sophisticated attack would have had a way to cover their tracks, he added: “This group who was responsible for that, if they didn’t have an Osama bin Laden out there, they’d invent one, because he’s a terrific diversion.”[110]

    So, “a tremendously sophisticated operation against the United States”, and we are supposed to believe it was carried out by a bunch of losers who could not plan what they were gonna have fer breakfest… sure.

  199. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Thank you for proving my point. You remind me of a liberal who blows a fuse when Hillary’s Wall St. connections are brought up.

  200. @dahoit

    if i remember correctly, after 911, the fbi was scrambling to grab up all photos and videos of the events that took place. They went thru and canvassed the areas extensively, making sure to not miss any pesky video that might throw a wrench in their “official narrative”. Same thing happened after the Kennedy assassination. Seems suspicious if you just step back analyze it…..

    • Replies: @Miro23
    , @dahoit
  201. @Beefcake the Mighty

    The only real anger I see here is from people like you, with all the name-calling and insults.

    I do not hesitate to respond in kind. I don’t honor any Xtian nonsense like turning the other cheek, etc. When you address me, be polite, and I will be polite in return.

    As for being angry, do you have a problem with that? How were you planning on preventing people from being angry?

    Lastly, beefy, were you planning on making any intelligent comments? Any analysis? Any informed opinion? Any counterpoint based on verifiable fact? How about you DO that, before you start bitching at me. Set an example for everyone to emulate.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  202. @John Jeremiah Smith

    You really can’t help yourself, can you?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  203. L.K says:

    In my previous comment I mentioned political and military leaders from other countries who stated that bin Laden and al-Qaeda simply could not have carried out the attacks. More on that, from investigative jornalist Christopher Bollyn:

    In Germany, I had the opportunity to interview Andreas von Bülow near Köln. Von Bülow, an author and former member of the Bundestag (the German parliament) served on the parliamentary commission which oversees the three branches of the German secret service. Von Bülow said he thought Israel’s intelligence service, Mossad, was behind the 9-11 attacks. These attacks, he said, were carried out to turn public opinion against the Arabs and boost military and security spending.
    “You don’t get the higher echelons,” von Bülow said, referring to the “architectural structure” which masterminds such terror attacks. At this level, he said, the organization doing the planning, such as Mossad, is primarily interested in affecting public opinion. The terrorists who actually commit the crimes are what von Bülow calls “the working level,” such as the nineteen Arabs who allegedly hijacked the planes on September 11. “The working level is part of the deception,” he said.
    “Ninety-five percent of the work of the intelligence agencies around the world is deception and disinformation,” he said, which is widely propagated in the mainstream media creating an accepted version of events. “Journalists don’t even raise the simplest questions,” he said. “Those who differ are labeled as crazy.”
    Eckehardt Werthebach, the former president of the Verfassungsschutz (a branch of German intelligence), told me that “the deathly precision” and “the magnitude of planning” behind the attacks would have needed “years of planning.” Such a sophisticated operation, Werthebach said, required the “fixed frame” of a state intelligence organization, something not found in a “loose group” of terrorists. Both Werthebach and von Bülow said the lack of a complete “blue ribbon” investigation, with congressional hearings, into the events of September 11 was incomprehensible.[...]As incomprehensible as it might seem, the Bush administration delayed and avoided an official investigation for as long as possible – at least until all of the evidence was destroyed. The steel from the World Trade Center was quickly shipped to Asia where it was melted down. The evidence from the crime scene was being destroyed as quickly as possible. This was clearly criminal, yet the highest authorities in the U.S. government and the Department of Justice were allowing it to happen.

    So, a good basic question to these shit eaters, like ‘John Jeremiah Smith’, ‘blair mountain whatever’ & co, is;

    Why did the government destroy the evidence b4 it could be examined, in direct violation of federal law regarding crime scene protocol??

    The worst terror attack in the history of the US & the government proceeded to quickly destroy the evidence b4 a forensic investigation of it could be performed.
    Why, Mr.shit-eaters?

  204. Art says:
    @nsa

    What’s with all the kosher trolls here today…….did the aipac meeting let out early?

    Whenever 9/11 comes up – Hasbara Central goes into panic mode. You can expect the tag team of Shama and iffen to be typing their little fingers off. Shama’s inadequate ridicule attempts are falling flat. And iffen’s WWII 88’ screeds are just getting nowhere.

    If the truth be known about 9/11, the whole Zionist enterprise will be over in a NY minute. Their dirty fingers are all over the event and the investigation.

    • Replies: @RobinG
    , @Boris
  205. @War for Blair Mountain

    9/11 Truthers screen out expert opinion from intellectually honest experts.

    Tell me why all the evidence was immediately shipped to China to be “recycled”?

  206. @L.K

    Tsk, tsk, Lukky me boy. Ron deleted my first reply (his option, no argument there), so I thought I would take a moment to discuss your rampant anti-semitism. Hate Jews, do you? Tsk, tsk.

    From your photograph, I would guess that your mother was an obese white woman, addicted to the crystallized cocaine known as “crack”. Your father was a Nigerian flim-flam artist who kept a stable of ten fat, perpetually pregnant white women, taking half of each one’s welfare check. You have 22 mulatto half-brothers and sisters, each with the middle name of Ngongo.

    And you hate white people, for good reason — they’re all smarter than you.

    Bye now.

    • Replies: @Stonehands
    , @L.K
  207. @Beefcake the Mighty

    You really can’t help yourself, can you?

    Well, you must love it, ’cause you keep on asking for it.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  208. Paul C. says:

    CNN, FOX and BBC all reported the collapse of WTC 7 before the collapse of WTC 7. They never explained how they got it wrong (reporting of a collapsed building that is still standing). They never explained how they knew it would fall. Fire has never collapsed a steel skyscraper in world history, except on 9/11. Not only did it fall but it fell at nearly free fall speed (8 seconds), meaning no resistance from the 80 columns on each of the 47 floors. This means that over 3,700 columns (80 x 47) had to collapse simultaneously from an office fire, when at the time of collapse, there was no evidence of a fire still burning.

    And lastly, why has no MSM (NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, FOX, MSNBC, NY Times, Wash Post etc…) ever written about how this building collapsed and to this day still will not touch it?

    Our media is controlled by the gov’t and our gov’t has been hijacked.

    Guess what you’ll also never read about, the legality of the Fed (Federal Reserve). These private bankers have effectively enslaved the rest of us and are running the show.

  209. RobinG says:
    @Art

    OT, and perhaps old news to you, but this review is unique. Atzmon can really mine a book for tasty information.

    “The moral is very clear: BDS had a very “good reason” to remain silent regarding its funding sources. After all, being funded directly or indirectly by a liberal Zionist philanthropy, a man who also funds the openly Zionist JStreet, is indeed slightly embarrassing. Furthermore, it seems as if this new evidence of Western intervention presented as a “Jordanian queer initiative” proves that Joseph Massed was more than correct—
Queer International is a farce. In practice it is a network of proxy operations attempting to introduce liberal ideas to Arabs and Muslims in an attempt to undermine their culture.”

    http://www.gilad.co.uk/writings/israelpalestine-and-the-queer-international-a-book-review-by.html

  210. @Rurik

    Excellent job Rurik- it is all about educating the lurkers here. JR’s advice is on point as well…

    The US needs a good political establishment enema….

  211. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Hey Shlomo- you sure do like to answer questions with questions!

  212. eD says:
    @Mark F.

    “I have yet to see a single plausible reason why the building had to come down rather than merely be flown into. Care to provide one?”

    On another one of these threads on this site, I raised the possibility that the twin towers (1 and 2 WTC) had been pre-wired for demolition either when they were constructed, or after the 1993 bombing, so that if they were structurally compromised, and there was a possibility that they would topple over onto other buildings in Manhattan, they could be brought down cleanly in their footprints. The evidence for controlled demolition is there because they were demolished that way, but this had always been the plan in the event of another, more successful terrorist attack, but for obvious reasons the authorities don’t want this known. On the other hand, 7 World Trade Center was pre-wired for demolition simply because of all the deep state stuff locataed there. Its perfectly possible that real terrorists attacked the World Trade Center AND the authorities brought the structurs down with controlled demolition.

    Likewise real terrorists could have planted a bomb inside the Pentagon, but the government wouldn’t want to advertise that terrorists could do that, so the public is fed the story of a plane striking the building.

    Whoever planted the attacks probably was not planning to destroy the World Trade Center itself. As you said, hijacking planes and flying them into skyscrapers creates enough terror in itself. This is true whether they were false flag attacks or actually planned by Islamic terrorists.

  213. @John Jeremiah Smith

    At no point in time have I written that such an event has taken place in a high-rise building. High-rise building fires are not commonplace, and fire-caused collapse of a high-rise building even less so. However, if you wish to read the NIST report on the collapse of Bldg. 7, it is available. Go find it. I do not fetch for shouting, angry conspiracy theorists.

    My Gawd…you are so full of shite!

    Slick Willies got nothing on you!

  214. Alfred says:

    “In my own area, of expertise, which is intelligence”

    I wonder whether “intelligence” includes mathematics?

    Number of Israelis killed in Twin Towers = zero
    Number of people killed in Twin Towers = 2996
    Expected percentage Israelis in buildings of the New York financial centre = 10%
    Expected number of Israelis killed in 2 buildings = 299%

    Chi-squared probability of all of them, by chance, forgetting to show up at work on that day = 0%

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  215. @War for Blair Mountain

    Your just making shit up to promote your 9/11 Truther psychosis….

    You a raising sewage that has been for been refuted for 15 years…hint:it’s what you leave out…among other things Truthers lie by omission…15 years and you still blathering on about nonsense that was refuted in great detail by engineers and physicist one month after 9/11…

    Stop farting out of your mouth and state your rebuttal, ass- clown.

  216. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Tsk, tsk, Lukky me boy. Ron deleted my first reply (his option, no argument there), so I thought I would take a moment to discuss your rampant anti-semitism. Hate Jews, do you? Tsk, tsk….

    Ahh…. doing the bidding of your Overlords?

    Racist! Homophobe! ANTI- SEMITE!!!

  217. Miro23 says:
    @Delinquent Snail

    It was the same story in Florida. Author Daniel Hopsicker spend a lot of time tracking down all the people who had contact with the Arab pilots in the flight schools, girlfriends, apartments where they lived, nightclubs etc. and interestingly, all of them had had previous visits from the FBI, not to investigate anything, but to threaten them to keep quiet and remove evidence.

    The reason was that the Arab pilots were 1) completely “looked after” with regard to visas, bypassing normal documentation procedures, immunity from the police etc. 2) they weren’t Islamic extremists – drinking, drugs, parties and prostitutes 3) they were hopeless pilots.

    Source: Daniel Hopsicker, “Welcome to Terrorland”, and by accident he also found that a group of Arab looking men posing as a television crew arrived at the Colony Beach resort Hotel, Longboat Key, Sarasota, Florida on the morning of 9/11, claiming to have an interview appointment with George Bush who was staying there. They were turned away and disappeared.

  218. It also includes a bit of a history lesson for the average viewer, recalling Hitler’s Reichstag fire, Pearl Harbor and the Gulf of Tonkin incident, all of which were essentially fraudulent

    That’s just wrong. Regarding Pearl Harbor, it was definitely provoked by Roosevelt’s policies, but it was nevertheless done by the Japanese. There were some suspicions raised that maybe Roosevelt deliberately let the Japanese carry out the attack, but apparently no one ever thought the Japanese were capable of proficiently carrying out such a large scale attack.

    Incidentally, the Japanese did a similar attack on Port Arthur in 1904 (and similarly before a formal declaration of war), and the American (and British) press celebrated them for their bravery and cunning.

    As to the Reichstag fire, there’s no conclusive evidence, but apparently most historians now think that it wasn’t, after all, done by the Nazis, instead it really was done by the lone pyromaniac van der Lubbe. Give credit where credit is due: the Nazis quickly grabbed the opportunity to claim extraordinary powers, as the fire made it easy for them to convince Hindenburg to grant them such powers.

    Still, there’s no evidence that it was in any ways “fraudulent”.

  219. @Paul C.

    They never explained how they got it wrong (reporting of a collapsed building that is still standing).

    That’s not a very good argument. The building was – according to the official version – on the verge of collapse. In the confusion, right after they pulled out the firefighters due to the imminent collapse, a reporter might have misunderstood what he was told (“it’s about to collapse” vs. “it has collapsed”), and then told a news agency or a tv channel, and the “news” was picked up by others before it was withdrawn. Then, a short time later, the tower did indeed collapse. What’s so difficult?

  220. Dave1962 says:

    911 has the stench and fingerprints of Israel/Zionists all over it.
    After all, according to Netanyahu “it was good for Israel”.
    This devious tribe would have no compunctions seeing 1 million American (non-Jews) killed if it benefitted Israel in the slightest way.

  221. @Stonehands

    I’ll go with series of papers published in an elite engineering journal+every engineering physics department in the US+a well known demolition Family.

    The nanothermite study was published in a nonelite chemistry journal. And several editors of this journal resigned in protest over the publication of the nanothermite study and the journal ownership interviening to get the Jones study published.

    There is a much larger…and it is this:9/11 9/11 Truthers are playing propaganda hocus pocus:believe in 9/11 Truther Science or you are part of the conspiracy. What the 9/11 Truthers have been doing is so way out of the bounds of normal scientific investigstation. In normal scientific investigation a scientific study is submitted for peer review. This can be done by submitting a scientific paper to an elite journal for peer review and publication….and-or….arranging to give a presentation to a group of experts at a university. 9/11 Truther Scientists have not followed the normal scientific peer review process.

    And I’ll also go the demolition expertise of America’s favorite demolition family who have been disgustingly slandered by one well known 9/11 Truther “scientist.”….as have the Families of the Victims who died in the Shanksville crash.

  222. @Stonehands

    The NIST study is the most accurate measurement of the time it took for both building 7 to collapse and it completely refutes the 9/11 Truther claim of controlled demolition. As does the working experience of America’s most famous demolition family who I mentioned in a previous post.

    The 9/11 Truther movement is a cabal of drooling psychotic delusionals….greedy bastards such as Alex Jones and Dylan Avery….and evil creatures such and philosophy professors David Ray Griffin and James Fentzler…..

    • Replies: @Stonehands
    , @Paul C.
  223. @Dave1962

    9/11 has the stupidity of millions of Native Born White Americans all over it…they should have devoted their free time to shutting down Muslim immigration forever. 9/11 was completely avoidable:0 Muslims in America=9/11 never happens….1+1=2 f……g easy…

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  224. @Paul C.

    A nit-pick: it’s free-fall acceleration, not speed.

  225. @Alfred

    It’s probably reasonable to assume the % of Israelis working in the twin towers was the same as the NYC financial industry as a whole (which is what I assume your 10% number represents), but is the actual % for the twin towers known?

    Apart from that, great point. In general, the disproportionate representation of Jews in various positions of power (media, govt, etc.) cannot be explained by statistical happenstance, it’s clearly ethnic networking. Which, you know, liberals generally say is a no-no.

  226. @reiner Tor

    What’s difficult to believe is that, even given the chaotic circumstances, anyone on the ground could confuse “about to collapse” with “collapsed”.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  227. iffen says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    No, just millions beat to death, summarily shot and killed, gassed or starved to death with the bodies burned in incinerators; not just men, lots of women and children.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  228. Che Guava says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    I am not sure what you mean, I suppose your comparison is of the WTC incident with Pearl Harbour?

    If so, valid to an extent, but the informational tricks are almost like inverses in some ways.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  229. iffen says:
    @RaceRealist88

    So who benefited from 9/11?

    Israel, America, etc. It’s mostly for Israel’s expansion for Greater Israel. Cause strife in the Middle East, cause migration. Go to war, have Americans and others fight and die for Israel, then Israel gets to expand. This all was a precursor for Greater Israel.

    Israel seems to have been able to expand on more than one occasion prior to 9/11, which means that 9/11 is/was not essential for Israeli expansion.

    The Middle East did not require 9/11 to create strife. Strife in the Middle East has been present since historical times and by genetic and archaeologic evidence it existed pre-history.

    America has been going to war world-wide since the dawning of Pax America (even before) it is not restricted to the Middle East.

    • Replies: @RaceRealist88
    , @geokat62
  230. Rurik says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    15 years and you still blathering on about nonsense that was refuted in great detail by engineers and physicist one month after 9/11…

    I confess I usually ignore you, but your tenacity at being dishonest and wrong are only outdone by your inanity

    everything you write is brazenly false and blatantly stupid, and it always lacks even a shred of brio. Just tiresome bromides and drab contrarian chaff for its own sake.

    >sigh<

  231. @iffen

    Beaten to death? That’s a new one.

    • Replies: @iffen
  232. Rurik says:
    @CanSpeccy

    get better if we give him a real work out.

    I guess we’ll see, eh?

    ;)

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  233. @Che Guava

    I’m just making a comparison (imperfect) between WTC and both Pearl Harbor (a pretext) and Hiroshima (a weapons test).

  234. @anonymous

    since Ron executed multiple handles, unable to post as Anonymous.

    vid:

    Anonymous doesn’t seem to be your usual commenter name, and this website requires commenters to either use their sole Handle, or else use Anonymous or Anon. Please check for typos and retry, or contact us if you believe some mistake has been made.
    RETURN TO COMMENTING BOX

    your paranoia is showing, Sam.
    It’s also affecting your creativity: humorous your “quick writing” was not.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  235. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Which one is more cynical?

    the point is that your fixation with “conspiracy theories” is hackneyed and bovine

    like calling someone a “racist” because they questioned Obama’s birth certificate. Those loaded terms are the Pavlovian equivalent of dogs salivating at the bell. Call someone a “conspiracy theorist” and the anticipated stimulus / response is supposed to shut them up. But a ‘discussion’ at the kneejerk level of is beneath you JJ. Surely you have something more cerebral than paeans to reflexes ?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  236. iffen says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Beaten to death? That’s a new one.

    Not that you care.

    “In many cities and communities, SA men occupied town halls and exacted revenge on representatives of the Weimar “system.” SPD offices and newspapers were also occupied, their furnishings destroyed, and their employees abused and taken to cellars and holding cells, where they, together with already-detained Communists, were mercilessly tortured by Hitler’s henchmen. Rudolf Diels bluntly described what such a torture chamber was like in the spring of 1933.”

    The victims we found there were close to starvation. They had been confined for days in narrow closets in an attempt to force “confessions” from them. The “interrogations” began and ended with beatings. Around a dozen brutes had taken turns beating the victims with iron bars, plastic batons and whips. Knocked-out teeth and broken bones bore witness to the torture. When we entered the space, whole rows of living skeletons were lying on rotten straw, their wounds festering. To a man, their bodies were covered with blue, yellow and green bruises from inhuman beatings. Many of their eyes were swollen shut, and blood had congealed under their nostrils. There was no groaning or complaint. They simply waited for the end to come or for the next beating to commence…

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  237. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Do a little more research. Most of the flight 93 bodies were identified and sent to their kin to be buried.

    here’s the local coroner describing what he saw at the “crash site”.

    he has since walked those comments back and said there were bodies all over the place. But you can tell he’s scared.

    Other than my BIL working as a CIA analyst, who let slip that Flight 93 was shot down?

    you’ve said that before, and I hope it’s not lost on you that what you’re describing is a ‘conspiracy theory’ whereby the government and media, and local coroner and everybody involved from top to bottom has colluded in this lie to cover up what really happened to flight 93.

    OK ?

    and because of that, and your obvious willingness to concede such a ‘conspiracy theory’ is often spot on, I’ve always assumed you were just trolling when you show up and try to shill for the official version of events on that day. Which, come to think of it, is what I still think. ;)

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  238. Sandy Berger.
    (1945-2015) . RIP.
    Deep State’s janitor/anti-archivist extraordinaire.
    Unfortunately his gallant and sometimes comical effort’s to keep documents from 911 commission are largely forgotten.

  239. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    USAF central command – where passengers and crew were disembarked, liquidated, or, set up with new identities spirited away to lives at sunny destinations accompanied by drinks with little umbrellas stuck on cherries.

    Hi Sam,

    yea, I used that term ‘liquidated’ intentionally

    I wanted to tweak something in the normal human centers of compassion for all of us non-psychopaths to try to get us to glimmer the mind of a true psychopath. For psychopaths- like the ones who drone weddings to send a message of terror to peasants- not to mess with the US, or who machine gun local guys standing around bullshitting on the streets of their city, liquidating civilians is nothing. As Waco was brought up earlier in this thread, we already know our government would not only liquidate, but cynically burn alive men, women and children- to send a message across America that you don’t mess with the US Fecal government, or else. The same message they sent to journalists when they assassinated Michael Hastings.

    These are the real-deal psychopaths who play for keeps. Handing chemical weapons to foreign terrorists in Syria to use on children is child’s play for them. They don’t bat an eye. It gives them neither pleasure or discomfort of any kind to push a button on people, (men, women or children). All they do is see their self-interest and pursue it, period.

    So yea, I don’t know if they landed and disembarked the passengers on that day, or if they sent the jets with them inside into the buildings. The first scenario simply seems more likely to me, but then that’s one we may never know. What we do know is that human life is insignificant to these people, who plan wars and in Hillary’ case; gloat over men tortured to death. And I don’t just mean ambassador Stevens, but Gadhafi too.

    They’re not like you and me. They’re a special breed, and the kind of power that can be wielded by the people with the US military at their fingertips, is irresistible to men and women like that.

    Just consider Lucky Larry. He had the PA system in the second tower tell all the people to go back to their offices, knowing a second plane was on its way, and wanting the maximum number of casualties. These were people he knew, and spoke to daily. And he cynically wanted for as many of them to die horribly as he could accomplish. Would it make it any worse if he called it “liquidating” them?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @WorkingClass
  240. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Why plant charges in Bldg 7 at all?

    ask Lucky Larry

    we don’t know the why of it and we don’t need to

    what we know is that they did it. Building seven is the smoking gun. They fucked up and now we know they did it. All your blather in defense of the people who did it is quite telling.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  241. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    “And the NIST did a painstaking detailed measurement of how long it took for building 7 to collapse…..and it refutes the 9/11 Truther claim of free fall”

    That statement is simply false – a lie.

    Ironically, those labeling the “truthers” here as “nuts” or “paranoid” offer no evidence. They simply point out inconsistencies in the “truthers” explanations (the same thing they accuse truthers of doing). They then attempt to bolster their argument by insinuating that because they agree with the government sposored view, their opinion is inherently more credible than the “truthers”. Finally, they attempt to impair the opposing argument by the use of derogatory name calling.

    Pot, kettle, black

    What is needed is sound science and understanding of basic scientific principal as well as logic

    For example, it is contrary to the laws of physics for a plane that did a nose dive intact into a farm field to spew debris a mile away in the direction opposite of travel.

    From this basic fact we can conclude that without a doubt, the goverment is lying to us about some aspects of 911.

    Now, Fred, and you other “anti-truthers,” where do YOU draw the line on what parts of the 911 story the government is lying about or not? On what basis do you draw that line except an objective, competent, independent investigation?

  242. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    “Since ISRAEL has been the primary source/instigator of all our troubles in the ME from the gitgo”

    I thought maybe he was being sarcastic with that Iran bullshit

    But I think you’re right L.K., and JJ is a ringer

  243. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    I see,

    So it’s a species of macabre comedy you chaps are involved in, one would have to assume, since here is Rurik:

    Rurik says:
    October 25, 2016 at 9:42 pm GMT

    The bodies of the purported passengers? Planted by CIA/FBI/NSA/Seekrut Agents.

    what bodies?

    there were no bodies, and no luggage and no plane

    you’re flailing around at phantoms, conjuring bodies and jousting at air

    To which you reply:

    CanSpeccy
    October 25, 2016 at 9:51 pm GMT

    you’re flailing around at phantoms, conjuring bodies and jousting at air

    LOL. But give the lad a chance. He’s just trying out at this propaganda gig. He’ll no doubt get better if we give him a real work out.

    and here you are sending me in the direction of http://old.post-gazette.com/headlines/20011027flight931027p5.asp

    CanSpeccy says: • Website
    October 26, 2016 at 12:27 am GMT • 100 Words

    [........]
    Incidentally, there seems no reason to doubt that the passengers aboard the highjacked airliners did indeed die, since positive DNA identification of most if not all victims was made by, e.g., the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology DNA lab in Rockville, Md.

    It’s rather odd, to say the least, that you and Rurik, fellow backslappers and all that, haven’t yet gotten around to clarifying your mutual positions regarding the small matter of remotely controlled aircraft. Rurik has proclaimed his credence of it.

    A clarification is indicated.

    P.S. That little reference you gave re: Nanothermite, You’d be well advised to steer clear of such “references”, A pay to publish journal in Abu Dhabi, or was it Dubai?!!

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @CanSpeccy
  244. Rurik says:
    @reiner Tor

    The building was – according to the official version – on the verge of collapse.

    lol

    In the confusion, right after they pulled out the firefighters due to the imminent collapse,

    you do realize that reasonable people are reading what you write, and seeing the glaringly obvious way your dissembling- on acid, don’t you?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  245. To L.K.:

    As time runs out on making comments to P.G.’s article, and also the likelihood of major (M.E.) theater war, I sincerely appreciate your posting the wise words included in Christopher Bollyn’s books and articles.

    Bravely, Mr. Bollyn proved that even beatings by thugs failed to make him swallow the 9-11 fairy tales which were passed on (for distribution) to the MSM by Hollywood mogul Arnon Milchan; the producer of films, for example, “Brazil,” and “JFK, where the latter (directed by Oliver Stone) took moviegoer attention onto a convenient detour AND primarily assigned JFK’s assassination guilt to the U.S. Military-Industrial-Complex.

    At present, the Zionist-U.S. Military-Industrial-Security Complex’s War of Terror is about to enter into its 16th year! Anyone old enough here remember the popular ABC program “The Fugitive” ?

    For fours (4) entertaining years (mid-1960s), dedicated police investigators pursued fugitive, Richard Kimbell… the wrong murder culprit! As you’re aware, L.K. , author Christopher Bollyn provides facts and “names names” as to exactly who the D.O.J., U.S. military, CIA, The FBI, and even ABC (!) should be in pursuit for committing the 9-11 mass murder and its IMMORAL warmongering aftermath.

  246. Sam Shama says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    Now, why would you be bothered to reply to this post I wonder, surely you don’t see eye to eye with the late lamented Joseph?

  247. @War for Blair Mountain

    The NIST study is the most accurate measurement of the time it took for both building 7 to collapse and it completely refutes the 9/11 Truther…

    All well and good, you have a scientific background- but you conveniently omit half the process of a proper investigation.

    1- Why was the evidence quickly shipped off to the other side of the world and melted down? All of it should still be available, forever, for analysis of this most murderous crime.

    2. What was the big hurry shuttling around the country picking up the Bin Laden family [while airspace was completely shut down!] and abetting in their escape? Once again, the FBI reveals its raison d’etre- to obfuscate and cover- up crimes of the Deep State.

    3. Was that airliner shot down by the Fecal gov. over Shanksville? If so- why aren’t the taxpayers given a proper accounting?

    4. Philip Zelikow is one of the authors of the PNAC; and he is in charge of the 9/11 Commission?!

    5. The Commission itself: Bush initially authorizes 3 million dollars [lol] to investigate the most spectacular crime against America- and he wants to appoint Heinz Kissinger to lead it!? WTF?

    5. …And let’s not forget the puts on those particular airlines just prior to ” the event”. The Wall St. casinos are To Big To Jail. I forgot- RICO is just for us wops.

    Why must you continually malign the Truth? Is the Truth such a radical departure from these wicked times we live in, that it is considered the realm of drooling psychotics? [your words]Should people be locked up in a State G.U.L.A.G. system for pursuing it?

  248. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    You admit to a group of people’s scientific credentials, then dismiss their findings because they are, in your opinion, crackpots. You dismiss their theory because their is some scientific debate over the details (ever hear of Einstein or quantum theory?)

    Then of course, since the scientists are , in your opinion, “crackpots” , everyone who agrees with their theory is also a “crackpot”

    That there, WFBM, is some first class propagandizing. I don’t know what your angle is. You are intelligent, but deceitful

    PS A physical theory to explain spoon bending might be a fun exercise and does not imply that the originator believed anyone telepathically bent spoons.

  249. 252 and counting. 9/11 draws a crowd like free beer. I’ve only been reading Unz for a few months. I’m rather surprised by the support for the government here. I guess I thought y’all were a bit more subversive than you are. I was infesting the com boxes at huffington post back when it was new and exciting. You could say fuck back then but you could not mention 9/11. I don’t think these conversations accomplish anything but I’m happy that they are commonplace.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  250. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    A clarification is indicated.

    let me try to help Sam

    there were no bodies at the fake “crash site”

    if there were bodies scattered around for miles, then that would explain why there were none at the “crash site”.

    also, as I’ve mentioned before, they may or may not have landed and disembarked the passengers on those planes. I suspect they did, but then perhaps they just left them there and were certain enough that they wouldn’t be able to alter the path of the planes remotely flown into the buildings.

    there is a lot of conjecture with all of this. Did Bush know? Who knows? But more to the point, who cares? It doesn’t matter if Bush knew or not, or if people were on board flught 93. What we all know is that they lied and that this was not perpetrated by Osama and his band of merry men. Rather that the Mossad and Israel and element in our own government and media pulled this all off in order to foist the Eternal War to benefit Israel. Duh

    Now it’s not like I’m unsympathetic to your concerns Sam. Indeed, if it becomes widely known that Israel had a hand in this- that sympathy for Israel might wane in the US, and that might not be good for Israel. And truth be told, there are a lot of American (and British and other) Jews who consider that what’s good for Israel is also what’s ‘good for the Jews’. So it is perfectly understandable that you’d want to do some damage control when it came to Israel’s treachery vis-a-vis 9/11.

    I too would not want to see any Jews persecuted or held accountable for the crimes of psychopathic monsters in the Israeli government. When Ariel Sharon was responsible for Shabra and Shatilla, I never blamed the average Jew on the street, and I feel the same way about 911, as I believe all people of good will agree. The crimes of Dick Cheney do not impugn all white, protestant Americans any more than Lucky Larry’s crime of unprecedented “Jewish lighting” maligns all Jews.

    S0 please keep in mind that there were scores of Jews that died on 911, (even if there was only one Israeli). They will gladly sacrifice Jews for their own agenda and no one is looking to scape-goat Jews in general for the crimes of some Jews and Gentiles.

    But just as with the USS Liberty, there is every reason for us Americans to want to see all the people who were responsible for that singularly heinous crime brought to justice.

    If for no other reason, than to at least make sure they don’t do it again!

  251. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Exactly right Iffen.

    Although Diels, the Gestapo chief was the executor in many of these torture programmes, in the case of the Reichstag Fire, the credit must go to old Hermann Göring, who at a luncheon on the birthday of the Fuehrer in 1942 when the conversation turned to the topic of the Reichstag building and its artistic value, interrupted the conversation and shouted: “The only one who really knows about the Reichstag is I, because I set it on fire!” With that, he slapped his thigh with the flat of his hand. [Rudolf Diels' Affidavit, Nuremberg 1946 ]

    Diels had a curious relationship with Göring who protected him on at least two occasions. He’d also married Hermann’s cousin; yet in the final days of the Reich, most of the devoted competed to turn on each other.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  252. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Just consider Lucky Larry. He had the PA system in the second tower tell all the people to go back to their offices, knowing a second plane was on its way, and wanting the maximum number of casualties.

    So, with utter abandon, throwing all reasonable caution to the wind, you are asserting Larry Silverstein’s hand in the incident – mind you no one in the truther community has come anywhere close to establishing a substantive account of the event.

  253. @AnalogMan

    I used to enjoy your writing, but lately you seem to have lost the plot.

    Yup, I too feel more sympathy than disgust for someone who used to write well.

    Such as this classic.

    Spend a year on a casualty ward. When the girlfriend of seventeen from Chattanooga finds that her Mikey is blind and doesn’t precisely have a face, her expression is something to see. Or not to see. You can become disposed to ask: Is this war for anything? Or is it just a war?

    -Fred Reed, War, Maybe We Could Go Bowling Instead

    http://www.fredoneverything.net/Cambodia.shtml

    In that same article he noted that perspectives change. While they certainly do, I agree that maybe it’s time to bow out gracefully since something more than mere perspective has changed. It’s a sad thing to witness.

    • Agree: The Scalpel
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  254. @Rurik

    I want to commend your understanding of the evil and the abundance of these psycho killers. It is not possible in my opinion to make sense of politics without this understanding.

  255. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sam Shama

    I have told you already, I speak only for myself, so attempting to induce me to debate points others may have made or points that you assert that others have made is a waste of time and an indication of your inability to follow the conversation accurately.

    I’ve said nothing about remote controlled aircraft and I have endorsed nothing anyone else has said about remote controlled aircraft.

    If you want to read about remote controlled aircraft try the works of Professor A.K. Dewdney, a long-time contributor to Scientific American and a software expert presumably knowledgeable about remote control systems. It’s a plausible story, although I believe that professor Dewdney subsequently changed his view in some way that I forget. Moreover, there is no evidence that I know of to prove any significant part of Professor Dewdney’s hypothesis.

    Needless to say, I provide this link without implying in any way that I agree with Professor Dewdney on any point.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Sam Shama
  256. Rurik says:

    you are asserting Larry Silverstein’s hand in the incident – mind you no one in the truther community has come anywhere close to establishing a substantive account of the event.

    OMG of course he had a hand in it!!

    Jesus H Christ Sam

    the guy was central to the whole thing. He’s great friends with Bibi and they spoke on the phone weekly. He’s the POS that made sure he and his family were not in the towers that morning like they were every other morning, and like the psychopathic fiend that he is, had the PA system in the second tower tell everyone that there was not danger and to return to their places of work. This guy is the worst of the worst. A scumbag to beat all scumbags. I’m at a loss for words with this one

  257. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Now it’s not like I’m unsympathetic to your concerns Sam. Indeed, if it becomes widely known that Israel had a hand in this- that sympathy for Israel might wane in the US, and that might not be good for Israel. And truth be told, there are a lot of American (and British and other) Jews who consider that what’s good for Israel is also what’s ‘good for the Jews’. So it is perfectly understandable that you’d want to do some damage control when it came to Israel’s treachery vis-a-vis 9/11.

    I had to laugh out loud at this. The “truth” you keep “telling” is no more than a set of assertions of which you have convinced yourself, merely through constant repetition, much like rhymes that children learn, without a shred of evidence that would land it anywhere close to even a kangaroo court much less a U.S. one, or a European.

    I have no concerns, none at all in this regard; so when the nebulous miasma clears around your northerly reaches, you’ll perhaps step away from keyboard warfare and get on with the infinitely more difficult task of finding actual evidence for your fable? Or, you are about to give old Aesop and Grimm, some very odd competition.

  258. @John Jeremiah Smith

    … nor did one crash in a field in Shanksville, Pennsylvania

    Are you sure it “crashed” in a field , or was the wreckage strewn across a wide area because it was shot down by the USAF?

    This comment doesn’t back up your claim that someone on this blog believes there was no plane…

  259. @Beefcake the Mighty

    But how do you know it was someone on the ground? Have you ever played telephone? (Chinese whispers.) Maybe someone on the ground told on the phone someone thousands of miles away, and he misunderstood. False rumors are started always during such cases, what’s so difficult to believe there?

  260. @Rurik

    What’s your problem?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  261. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    yet in the final days of the Reich, most of the devoted competed to turn on each other.

    No doubt. I think that the evidence is there to support the contention that Hitler absolutely encouraged the cut-throat competion among his underlings. He was truly a Social Darwinist (although, I recently read that we should really be saying Social Spencerist instead) in all matters, large and small. Especially in the 20′s and into the early 30′s, he rarely intervened in party or personnel squabbles unless it directly threatened his position.

  262. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    that would land it anywhere close to even a kangaroo court

    perhaps that’s why they did everything in their power to resist any kind of investigation, eh Sam?

    and then came up with Henry Kissinger to head it up! lol

    before they settled on Philip Zelikow

    hmm

  263. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    It’s all all very well for you to say “I’ve told you so already…” etc and go on to claim that you merely provide links without necessarily agreeing with an assertion or point of view. Those are commonly referred to as weasel words.

    Harritt is a chemist and therefore the person whose expertise must chiefly be questioned if the published evidence of thermite in the WTC dust is to be challenged. I am unaware of any published study that refutes the above-linked Harritt et al. paper. Do you know of any such paper? If not, I doubt anyone has a basis for such a paper, since evidence to refute Harritt et al. would surely be highly publishable and would yield those responsible considerable kudos.

    But in any case, none of the arguments I have stated here is premised on the use of nanothermite in the destruction of the WTC. Nanothermite has been used in building demolition but only rarely I believe. Interestingly, NIST, which was contracted by the US Government to investigate the collapse of the WTC towers, has exceptional expertise with nanothermite.

    First, you imply as unassailable, the paper “published” by this fellow Harrit at this non-peer-reviewed, pay to publish journal at Abu Dhabi. Then you go on to say that nanothermite is not required for your position to be valid; you then angularly but quite clearly go on to implicate the NIST for having a hand in the incident!

    As Obama would say ” I mean c’mon man!”

  264. Rurik says:
    @reiner Tor

    What’s your problem?

    911 was the atrocity and pretext intended to terrorize the planet on behalf of Zionists

    I’m not fond of them or their apologists

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  265. @Rurik

    All your blather in defense of the people who did it is quite telling.

    I agree and would like to respectfully suggest that Outhouse Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Lies stick to commenting on privy prettification ala…

    John Jeremiah Smith
    says:
    October 25, 2016 at 2:35 am GMT • 100 Words

    I’m thinking just a 5-foot French door between the kitchen “eat-in” area and the dining room. For awhile (sic), I thought maybe a 4-foot French door with tastefully-subdued stained-glass sidelights, but I’ve got a pile of rough-sawn native cherry up in the shed attic. I’ll make a fluted 8-inch molding on both sides, and a crown above. Should look pretty good.

    :)

  266. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Yes it seems many of these “Dewdneys” for reasons unknown, tend to change their minds. I am not trying to get you to debate anyone else position – nor your own for that matter, only attempting to spotlight how the truther narrative is all over the place, yet incredible leaps to level the gravest of accusations against people [like Larry Silverstein] are made; in some circumstances these can be prosecutable.

    Posting with anonymous courage is a thing to behold!

    • Replies: @Rurik
  267. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    to the topic of the Reichstag building and its artistic value, interrupted the conversation and shouted: “The only one who really knows about the Reichstag is I, because I set it on fire!”

    I have to reserve judgment on this. (Although, according to Wiki, Goring was the 1st of the head muckety-mucks on the scene.) What is without question is the monumental value as a catalyst for the seizure of complete political power. Come to think of it, if it was a false flag, does this help explain the current year Nazis’ fanatical devotion to the idea of false flags?

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Keith
  268. Paul C. says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    NIST did not publish their scientific modeling showing how WTC 7 was a progressive collapse. The scientific community demands peer review. It’s a complete whitewash. They’re saying column 79 was compromised and triggered a chain of events (progressive).

    If WTC 7 was made of wood, you still couldn’t get it to collapse into its own footprint in 8 seconds.

    Wake up, you’ve been lied to!

  269. @Rurik

    the point is that your fixation with “conspiracy theories” is hackneyed and bovine

    Are you being serious? Have you read these several-hundred comments? In that light, one must assume you joke in accusing ME of “fixation”.

    I’m terribly sorry if you feel that the label “conspiracy theorist”, or “C-Theorist” for short, is somehow equivalent to calling someone a racist. Are you, or are you not, a person who believes that at least ONE, if not several, conspiracies are involved with the events of 9/11? Come now, how can you deny it? Do you regard yourself pejoratively as a person who has a theory that 9/11 involved a conspiracy?

    I think I have some understanding, if not much sympathy, for people whose interest is held by various conspiracies. That it lessens my respect for some people, depending on the level of general wackiness of some given C-theory, I admit. So what? We’re even. As I have said many, many times over: Believe as you like.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  270. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    [ Come to think of it, if it was a false flag, does this help explain the current year Nazis’ fanatical devotion to the idea of false flags?]

    It jolly well could, with the attendant implications!

    • Replies: @iffen
  271. Chuckie says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Fact is, yes they do — known, verified, fully-explained using real, verifiable data.

    Since you seem to appreciate proper language use and like to waste comments correcting others for simple mistakes:

    Another basic rule is that we never hyphenate compounds that are created with “-ly” adverbs, even when they PRECEDE the nouns they modify: “a fully developed plan,” for example, or “a nationally certified teacher.”

    So “fully explained” would be correct. No hyphen.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  272. @jacques sheete

    In that same article he noted that perspectives change. While they certainly do, I agree that maybe it’s time to bow out gracefully since something more than mere perspective has changed. It’s a sad thing to witness.

    Now I’m rather curious, Zhahk. How much combat experience do you have, and where? Vietnam? Afghanistan? Iraq? Were you wounded?

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  273. Ex-Saffer says:
    @eD

    That’s a better reply than I was entitled to expect.

  274. @Rurik

    But just as with the USS Liberty, there is every reason for us Americans to want to see all the people who were responsible for that singularly heinous crime brought to justice.

    Okay, then, let’s say you convince the Clinton administration to gather a panel of esteemed scientists and investigators, and form a new commission for the investigation of the events of 9/11.

    How do you think that’s going to turn out?

  275. @Chuckie

    So “fully explained” would be correct. No hyphen.

    Yeah, I seem to have gotten in the habit of hyphenating some things that don’t need it. I suspect this developed from fighting with online spell-checkers, but, yeah, guilty.

  276. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    It jolly well could, with the attendant implications!

    Hmmm.

    Nazis used a false flag to achieve their greatest day in the sun, so naturally they would think that the Jews and their fellow travelers are using false flags to gain complete power.

    Sam, I thing we’ve cracked the code!!!

    • Agree: Sam Shama
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  277. @WorkingClass

    252 and counting. 9/11 draws a crowd like free beer. I’ve only been reading Unz for a few months. I’m rather surprised by the support for the government here. I guess I thought y’all were a bit more subversive than you are.

    C-Theorists are never subversive. They are supplicants, not revolutionaries.

  278. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    the gravest of accusations against people [like Larry Silverstein] are made; in some circumstances these can be prosecutable.

    LOL

    there you go again Sam, wishing for some harm to come to me ;)

    as for Silverstein, if he wanted to sue for slander, there’s a line a three thousand souls long of people that would relish the opportunity

    https://www.darkmoon.me/2013/will-larry-silverstein-ever-be-brought-to-justice-for-911-insurance-fraud-by-dr-kevin-barrett/

    that murderous little POS wouldn’t get within a Tel Aviv mile of a court of law

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Paul C.
  279. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    First, you imply as unassailable, the paper “published” by this fellow Harrit at this non-peer-reviewed, pay to publish journal at Abu Dhabi.

    That’s a pathetic way to argue. First you say “you imply,” then you knock down your latest silly straw man argument.

    Then you go on to say that nanothermite is not required for your position to be valid

    Why would nanothermite be required for my position to be valid. I never said anything about nanothermite with reference to “my position”?

    Then you allege that I

    angularly but quite clearly go on to implicate the NIST for having a hand in the incident!

    That’s more silliness. The idea that NIST blew up the WTC is clearly absurd and is not a possibility that has ever occurred to me, let alone a possibility that I have asserted or suggested, angularly, circularly or spherically.

    Why, in fact, are you attacking me Sam?

    What is your position? Is it that you think the co-chairs of the 9/11 Commission were wrong to say that “Commissioners knew that military officials misrepresented the facts to the Commission” and that the the “Commission largely operated based upon political considerations”?

    And do you dispute 9/11 Commission co-chair Lee Hamilton admission that “I don’t believe for a minute we got everything right”, and his further statements that the Commission was set up to fail, that people should keep asking questions about 9/11, that the 9/11 debate should continue, and that the 9/11 Commission report was only “the first draft” of history?

    And so on and so forth. But let’s face it, you are no more interested in a serious discussion about 9/11 than the juvenile thrower of dead cats, JJ Smith, or silly old Fred who smears as anti-Semitic, any who follow the advice of 9/11 co-chair Lee Hamilton to “keep asking questions.”

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Sam Shama
  280. @Rurik

    I reiterate:

    Do a little more research. Most of the flight 93 bodies were identified and sent to their kin to be buried.

    you’ve said that before, and I hope it’s not lost on you that what you’re describing is a ‘conspiracy theory’ whereby the government and media, and local coroner and everybody involved from top to bottom has colluded in this lie to cover up what really happened to flight 93.

    A cover-up is not a conspiracy; it’s a bureaucratic reaction to actions that will get bad press. That thousands of people plotted to, basically, fake an attack on 9/11, THAT would be a conspiracy.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @The Scalpel
  281. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Rurik

    Re: Thge possibility of inducing JJ Smith to engage in sensible discussion

    I guess we’ll see, eh?

    I may have misjudged him.

    I’d thought he might gradually be induced to engage in a Socratic dialog with the possibility of enlightenment. But it seems, rather, that he’s a perfect end product of the current Western idea of education: a mass of politically correct prejudices, slogans, sneers, smears and jeers.

    But then could JJ be, in fact, an early version artificially intelligent agent of cognitive infiltration? If so, the techies over at the CIA, DARPA, or wherever, still have some work to do.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  282. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I’m terribly sorry if you feel that the label “conspiracy theorist”, or “C-Theorist” for short, is somehow equivalent to calling someone a racist.

    they are equivalent

    they’re both meaningless pejoratives without definition and intended as a smear

    Are you, or are you not, a person who believes that at least ONE, if not several, conspiracies are involved with the events of 9/11?

    is that the metric? if you believe in only one conspiracy, (the official one) then you’re OK. You’re not a loony “conspiracy theorist”

    but if you believe in two or more, well then, come on now! Where’s your tinfoil hat?

    whose interest is held by various conspiracies

    actually it’s not the original conspiracies, or even the crime itself that hold my interest.

    but something far deeper and far more sinister. What holds my interest is not even that our elites are psychopathic murderers and war criminals. But what they have in mind is what holds my interest. Because it’s Orwellian and it bodes an incomprehensibly cruel and monstrous nightmare for the world’s people.

    that John Wayne Gacy was a murderous fiend and psychopathic monster is a curiosity and a morbid tale of human evil and twisted pathology. But if John Wayne Gacy were to be elected president, then my interest would be seriously held, to say the least. Not because of what he did, but rather because of what he will no doubt do!

    And I like the analogy of our present elites to JWG. They both are known for a pathological obsession with power, and a murderous and insatiable need to see others suffer- and know that they personally are the cause of that suffering. That they both get some kind of perverse satisfaction from humiliating and demeaning and ultimately torturing to death people that are at their mercy.

    what was Hillary’s cackling over Gadhafi if not the exact same expression of exuberance that Gacy felt at personally torturing those young men to death. Indeed, I suspect that Gacy never really experience half the giddy pleasure that Hillary displayed with her over the top euphoric exhilaration

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  283. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @CanSpeccy

    The above comments were directed to Sam Shama.

  284. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    A cover-up is not a conspiracy; it’s a bureaucratic reaction to actions that will get bad press. That thousands of people plotted to, basically, fake an attack on 9/11, THAT would be a conspiracy.

    the attack wasn’t faked, it was all too real

    what was faked was the ‘who did it’, just as with JFK

    and shooting down flight 93 and then covering it up certainly would be considered a conspiracy theory, absolutely

    you’d have the soldiers and their superiors who ordered and then carried out the shoot-down, and the civilian superiors that authorized it. You’d then have that conspiracy to shoot a missile into an existing gorge as a ruse for what happened to the jet. Then all the people on the ground and all the media organization to all lie about it. It would require hundreds if not thousands of people to be complicit and play along. What’s that if not a conspiracy theory?

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  285. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    The simplest and most likely explanation for flight 93 is that it was shot down, broke up in mid-air and only a large remaining fragment containing few, if any, passengers, hit the field in PA. That scenaio explains all the findings. There were even articles at the time relating how Dick Cheney gave the order to shoot the plane down. I find that story credible

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  286. @Rurik

    I’m terribly sorry if you feel that the label “conspiracy theorist”, or “C-Theorist” for short, is somehow equivalent to calling someone a racist.

    Rurik, you ARE a conspiracy theorist. You are what you are. Believe as you like, man. Calm the fuck down. Hell, ALL you conspiracy theorists, calm the fuck down. Nobody is denying you the right to believe what you like, and to say what you want to say. For crap’s sake, any time I make the simple admission that I’m atheist, I am barraged with abusive bullshit — everything from my obviously foul and evil nature to imaginary sexual proclivities. So you get razzed a little bit about your 9/11 beliefs. Deal with it.

    What holds my interest is not even that our elites are psychopathic murderers and war criminals. But what they have in mind is what holds my interest.

    They want wealth and power. They want ALL the wealth and power the Universe holds. That’s why sane and sensible Americans should rise up and kill them. Oooooo….did I say something verboten? Tough shit, I say we kill them.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @L.K
  287. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    The point here Rurik – and I’ve watched a few of these crass, awful youtube productions – is that no matter what you think of Silverstein, hurling the products of your mind’s ferment can have implications, not the least of which is damaging someone who might be entirely innocent of the charges. The internet has changed discourse in ways unrecognisable.

    It’s hardly bellowing to an assembled crowd at Hyde Park, where identities are all out in the open. Not so here, and that is the great courage of anonymity. Everything in this world of ours has costs and benefits. While only the individual can reckon what their personal costs are, most rarely ponder on the costs to society. Don’t think the internet is free. It most decidedly isn’t. While Ron bears the direct costs in dollars, VPN programming, maintenance, editorial and a myriad of other functions of this little gem, the backbone of the structure, the networking machines, search algorithms, traffic distribution programming, not to mention the physical infrastructures are maintained by a conglomerate of large soc-tech firms, the government and inter-governmental agreements. Any one of these entities might wish to impose direct costs and rules on the user. It’s really not much different than using the highways. Excessive instances of breaking the speed limits will invariably result in fines, license seizures or worse. You shouldn’t want it, nor I. That was the point.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  288. Rurik says:
    @CanSpeccy

    a perfect end product of the current Western idea of education: a mass of politically correct prejudices, slogans, sneers, smears and jeers.

    well, one of the challenges of sorting out who you’re participating with on the Internet is divining whether or not they’re participating in good faith. IOW are they here to seek the truth, or to obfuscate it..

    one thing you’ll find with 9/11 is that there are a lot of vested interests in maintaining the official narrative. Bush administration apparatchiks, Israelis, Zionists, (Jews and otherwise) who don’t want for the truth to get out there, for obvious reasons. (prison being among them).

    We don’t need to wonder why Dick Cheney would not approve of a new and fair investigation.

    So when you’re in these debates, at some point you get a perception about those on the other side. Sam for instance has obvious reasons for wanting to maintain the status quo vis-a-vis ‘the narrative’.

    as for JJ, I’m not sure. But his remarks about Iran were quite telling, I confess. Only Zionists or imbeciles actually believe that Iran has been the aggressor when it comes to their troubles with the US. And the fact that JJ isn’t an imbecile, is perhaps his most damning give-away.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  289. Paul C. says:
    @Rurik

    And let’s not forget that Lucky Larry says he reviewed the design plans for the new WTC 7 in April of 2000, as mentioned at the 1 minute mark:

  290. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    They want wealth and power. They want ALL the wealth and power the Universe holds.

    if only that were only what they wanted!

    they already have that for Christ’s sake

    now what they want is TOTAL power over EVERYONE

    this is what they want

    that photo is their id

    it’s their OT revenge on the world for rejecting them as little god$ incarnate, and we’re all supposed to lick their feet

    and for our unforgivable temerity of not only not licking their feet, but of actually raising our hand to them, in what they refer to as ’2000 years of persecution!, culminating in the Holocaust’

    and they mean to have their revenge, by god!

    this is what they want

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  291. @The Scalpel

    The simplest and most likely explanation for flight 93 is that it was shot down, broke up in mid-air

    Sidewinder from a Tomcat out of Pax River. Took out an engine pod and blew away half the wing. Flight 93 rolled over, spiraled a couple times, and went into the ground at approximately 500 knots. Corpse collection and identification was difficult because all but a few bodies were in several pieces.

    Yes, I’m sure. It had to be done because Washington DC was ten minutes away, and objective unknown. First plane hit the WTC at 8:45. Comm traffic was that Flight 93 had a bomb on board. Military is not allowed to shoot down aircraft over Washington DC. Flight 93 was shot down at 10AM. Doubt that Cheney gave the order, as operational authority to shoot down a hijacked aircraft is held by Defense Dept. — the ability to provide quick response being essential.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  292. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Rurik

    I think everyone grossly overestimates the number of people who have to be “in the know” to pull something like this off. Information is compartmentalized on a need to know basis and suppression works both ways.

    In the case of flight 93, the only ones necessarily “in the know” were those who gave the order, the pilots and crew who carried out the order, and the crew’s commanders. For obvious reasons, none of them will talk. Everyone else was just doing their job and being fed lies from those others. Coroner’s etc. may have had their doubts about the story, but they had no firm proof. Eventually, at risk of losing jobs or credibility or more, due to their “truther” views, they will “believe” what they are told and repeat the lies to all but their closest confidants. Even some lessers in the chain of command giving the order could later have been “informed” that a shoot down was not necessary because “let’s roll.” After all, they did not witness the trigger being pulled. Same suppression mechanisms apply.

    For a bigger scenario, such as bld 7, same technique applies. Contractors, etc. hired under false pretenses, told lies about what they were doing, most just did it without question. The few that expressed doubts, were suppressed by same methods as above. Only the people who hired the people who hired the contractors, etc. had any need to know more.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  293. @Rurik

    I said:

    They want wealth and power. They want ALL the wealth and power the Universe holds.

    You said:

    if only that were only what they wanted!

    they already have that for Christ’s sake

    What part of “ALL” didn’t you understand? Seriously, dude, ease up on the over-the-top psycho stuff.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  294. Sam Shama says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Well, at this point I think I shall close matters by simply observing that perhaps we misunderstood each other. Reading #179 led me to believe you consider there is something to the nano-thermite story [furthermore why is it "interesting" that NIST has expertise in NT?]. In any case, thought I’d mention I enjoy some of the pieces you write e.g., http://canspeccy.blogspot.ca/2016/06/trump-disappoints-is-devious-donald.html

    cheers.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  295. @Rurik

    as for JJ, I’m not sure. But his remarks about Iran were quite telling, I confess. Only Zionists or imbeciles actually believe that Iran has been the aggressor when it comes to their troubles with the US. And the fact that JJ isn’t an imbecile, is perhaps his most damning give-away.

    LOL. Paranoia feels so good, don’t it? I’m kinda getting to the point where I’m thinking youse guys are training for the wacky ward, but, just to set the record straight, I was trying to be funny. Iran hasn’t been anything much other than a patsy since 1980. Too light a touch with the my satire, I suppose.

  296. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    infrastructures are maintained by a conglomerate of large soc-tech firms, the government and inter-governmental agreements. Any one of these entities might wish to impose direct costs and rules on the user. It’s really not much different than using the highways. Excessive instances of breaking the speed limits will invariably result in fines, license seizures or worse. You shouldn’t want it

    you never tire of threatening me, do you Sam

    thinly veiled or otherwise

    I’d give money to take you on in a court of law, much like this forum is a court of public opinion.

    what I wonder would be a ‘show of hands’ for who believes that Lucky Larry was complicit in the attacks, vs. those like you, who demand that anyone who even suggests such a possibility, be subject to harsh punishments

    has Rurik broken the Internet ‘speed limit’ by suggesting Larry Silverstein is a mass-murdering psychopath? A filthy rotten greedy Zionist POS being protected by a corrupt and rotten system? A man who laughs at the horrific deaths of the people he saw daily? Who would profit on their suffering and that of their families and loved ones?

    Am I in violation of the Internet codes of conduct to say the Silverstein and Cheney and Rumsfeld and Netanyahu and Chertoff and Clinton are criminal trash and vile stains upon the fabric of humanity? And that they all deserve to spend a stint in Gitmo, where I, Rurik would agree to personally interview them to find out what they in fact know?

    is that breaking the speed limit Sam?

    • Agree: Stonehands
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @L.K
  297. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    dude, ease up

    I’m on a roll

    ‘frothing’ is part of my persona here at Unz

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  298. Rurik says:
    @The Scalpel

    The few that expressed doubts, were suppressed

    I agree Scapel,

    and, people fall in line. It very quickly becomes common knowledge which side of the bread has the butter on it. And if you’re a journalist, or just a school teacher or policeman, you toe the line, because you quickly get a sense of where things lie. And few people want to rock the status quo boat and become *that person.

    the entire edifice of our fecal government and media know what’s what vis-a-vis the PTB, and who to mollify at all times.

    *James Traficant (among many others) was one of ‘those’ people

  299. Sam J. says:

    “…When it comes to 9/11, I have been reluctant to enter the fray largely because I do not have the scientific and technical chops to seriously assess how buildings collapse…”

    You don’t need to be an Architect or Engineer to determine with 100% reliability that on 9-11 the buildings were demoed.

    I’m going to strip out all the bullshit and prove that building #7 was demoed in some manner. All the 9-11 talk by the lying “Spoofers” is just a distraction. It it 100% that building #7 was demoed and could not have been brought down by fire because of the basic physics of the fall. You don’t need to rely on anyone to know the truth. Look with your own eyes. Basic high school physics. Undisputable. Building #7 fell the same speed as a rock dropped beside it in free air for roughly 108 feet. This means the building had no resistance to falling except air. Impossible without explosives.

    All materials fall the same speed in a gravity field disregarding air friction which I don’t thing we need to worry about for a building falling. So the speed of our imaginary rock falling next to the building is just gravity related. The speed of the buildings falling, the exact same as the rock, is just gravity also. This means that there was NOTHING to slow the fall of the building. The density of the material under the imaginary rock falling was air. The building fell the same therefore the density of the material under the building was also air. We know this is not true. Building #7 was not hovering in the air. The lower portions of the building were demoed out from under it.

    It’s makes NO difference how big the fires were. The buildings density never reached the same value as air! The fires did not boil away the building structure where it was light as air! All the talk about damage, fires, this, that, all bullshit because the building fell with all four corners almost level the same speed as a rock in AIR. If a building falls as fast as a rock and the rock is falling through JUST AIR then the building is falling through JUST AIR also. Simple equivalence. 1=1, 2=2, big rock falling in air=small rock falling in air=building falling in air. One problem is people sometimes believe that a really heavy thing will fall faster than a lighter thing. Not true. Look at this video of the Apollo astronaut dropping a feather and a hammer on the Moon. They land at the same time.

    This is one of the best videos I’ve seen on the building #1 and #2. It’s by a Mechanical Engineer. It’s very interesting by itself even if you don’t believe in any conspiracy, it’s shows the towers, how they’re designed and there’s no hold your breath type speculation stuff.

    We know the Jews are responsible because they own all the media and they can see that it was a false flag just as easily as I can and take every opportunity to deny it.

    I’m going to make a prediction. There’s a large possibility that Trump is working for the Jews. He will blame 9-11 solely on Bush and the Saudis and leave the Jews out of it. He will also attack the Clintons and put them in jail. Notice this clears up all the 9-11 problems and destroys any and all power centers not based on them at one fell swoop.

    Freed Reeds survey is severely lacking because of it’s skipping of building #7 which is evidence that shows clearly that the attack was pre-planned.

    One last thing. The buildings 1 and 2 were designed for much higher loads. Even if the section that was hit by the plane was melted completely away the bottom of the building was designed to hold up the weight of the top. So all this talk about the high weight of the top means nothing as they were designed to take a much higher weight. The outside columns were designed to carry 2000% of the load due to wind forces which were higher than just holding up the building.

    The Gov. whole story is just complete bullshit.

    • Replies: @dahoit
  300. In addition to LOOSE CHANGE , I highly recommend you watch EXPLOSIVE EVIDENCE featuring architects and engineers for 9/11 truth.
    It covers the technical and physical reasons why the official story cannot possibly be true.

  301. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    No, you idiot, I did not threaten you, only trying to wake you up to the real prospect of having limitations imposed on all, the costs to society as I remarked, consequent on the actions of the few. As of now, there aren’t any rules or speed limits. So try to drive under 65

    • Replies: @Rurik
  302. Paul C. says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    JJS,

    There has been plenty of severe high rise fires in steel skyscrapers. Many would be described as infernos that lasted 24 hours and burnt everything, but the steel frame still stood.

    http://www.serendipity.li/wot/other_fires/other_fires.htm

    Never has a steel frame structure collapsed from fire except on 9/11. Stop believing everything your gov’t and media tells you and start researching and thinking for yourself. It’s the only way forward. And then start spreading the truth.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  303. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    As of now, there aren’t any rules or speed limits. So try to drive under 65

    I’ve been posting here for a while now Sam, I’m sure if I were doing so in violation of some unwritten code somewhere that I’d get an inkling of it somehow. In fact I remember getting exactly that once during a flame fest I was inadvertently dragged into, and the moderators here would show a sentence or two, and then put the rest all below the blue link, as they sometimes do.

    But saying that Larry Silverstein was complicit in the attack on 9/11 is hardly the kind of thing to ruffle feathers. I mean everyone who’s even taken a cursory look into 9/11 can see his guilt from a mile away. I bet he has more security details than Donald Trump. And for good reason.

    People know what he did. Just Google his name..

    I just did and this was at the top (I think someone else just posted it here)

    http://www.mintpressnews.com/911-larry-silverstein-designed-new-wtc-7-one-year-attacks/214821/

  304. @Rurik

    Oh, sorry. Performance art it is. Proceed …

  305. @Paul C.

    Never has a steel frame structure collapsed from fire except on 9/11.

    So what? On 9/11, a steel frame structure collapsed from the effects of fire. Are you saying that exceptions prove the rule? They don’t.

  306. @Sam Shama

    DNA evidence was planted …….

    DNA as in biology or DNA as in nudge in the direction of cultural trends ?

  307. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Sam Shama

    why is it “interesting” that NIST has expertise in NT

    Sam, there are certain facts about 9/11 which make it seem to me a near certainty that 9/11 was, in some sense, an inside job. I have mentioned some of those facts above and won’t reiterate them here.

    In addition, there is a mass of information about 9/11 that appears to me to be consistent with the conclusion that 9/11 was, in some sense, an inside job. But these additional facts provide merely circumstantial evidence upon the interpretation of which honest people will undoubtedly take differing views. It was for its circumstantial relevance that NIST’s reputed involvement in the development of nanothermite seemed to me to be of interest. Who after all, would be best qualified to cover up evidence of the use of explosives, including nanothermite, in the destruction of the Twin Towers and Building 7, than those with expertise in the development and use of such materials. It seems likewise interesting that although the US National Guide for Fire and Explosion Investigations calls for testing related to thermite and other pyrotechnics, NIST undertook no such testing.

    Re: Trump:
    Yes, he’s certainly a preposterous presidential candidate. But then most powerful political figures are highly abnormal people who owe their fame or ignominy to their abnormality. And many saints (most?) were former sinners., so one cannot exclude the possibility that Trump’s agenda has been advanced in perfect sincerity. Which is why, as an alternative to the Clintons, Trump is seen as the best bet by a large number of reasonable people.

  308. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    This account of the downing of Flight 93 seems entirely plausible, even though it refutes, or at least makes redundant, the official “Let’s roll” explanation, and thus adds to the heap of circumstantial evidence that the official theory of 9/11 is in fact a cover-up.

  309. Paul C. says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    JJS,

    WTC 7 came down in 8 seconds. 3,700 + columns had to give way simultaneously from fire. Is this what you believe?

    Here’s what you said in a previous post: “That steel-framed buildings can collapse from intense internal fires is well-known, and readily demonstrable”.

    Can you back this up with evidence? If not, you can’t be taken seriously.

  310. @iffen

    Israel seems to have been able to expand on more than one occasion prior to 9/11, which means that 9/11 is/was not essential for Israeli expansion.”

    Of course, but it wouldn’t hurt right? That has them expand even more. When you look t 911 through the lens of “being beneficial for Israel”, it all makes sense.

    “The Middle East did not require 9/11 to create strife. Strife in the Middle East has been present since historical times and by genetic and archaeologic evidence it existed pre-history.”

    Oh of course. I believe that the Jews et al are using the Arabs’ natural genetic proclivities to achieve their goals. I think it’s twofold. 1) cause more strife than was currently had to force migration so Israel can expand (ISIS was created to overthrow Asaad for Israel) and 2) show the countries who recognized Palestine as a state what Arabs are like. Bibi made a specific comment a few years ago specifically saying that recognizing Palestine was a “grave mistake” for Sweden, and France. Sweden got hit with tons of them and, not coincidentally, two terrorist attacks happened in France within 365 days of each other. Hmm.

    “America has been going to war world-wide since the dawning of Pax America (even before) it is not restricted to the Middle East.”

    Of course. But the attacks on the ME are only a net gain for Israel, a negative for us since our people are dying so Israel can expand.

    • Replies: @iffen
  311. @John Jeremiah Smith

    This sounds suspiciously like “we know the Germans could kill 6M Jews with no formal directives and leave no traces of evidence while fighting a two-front war, because it happened”.

  312. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    JJS,

    Of course, you are correct. It is possible that bldg. 7 collapsed due to fires even though that has never happened before. It is possible that it fell that fast and symmetrically. It is possible that serendipity led to 3 major networks reporting the bldg. had fallen, before it did fall but were just a little off in their timing when the buildings had been evacuated and there was no way to get inside and closely monitor the structure to make such an accurate call in the timing.

    All that is possible, but what is the probability that all that happened vs. a small group of people who were very skilled at black ops, were able to organize, in a highly compartmentalized way, the rigging and demolition of the building and keep it secret.

    Clearly, you believe one scenario is more likely and I believe the other is more likely. Makes for a lively debate!

    The only evidence I see supporting the “accepted answer” is 1. A theoretical possibility, 2. “”because we told you so” and 3. “If it is not because we told you so, please present an air tight complete explanation on how it did happen. If you can’t do this, see point #2″

    I don’t put much creedence in points 2 and 3, myself.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  313. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Well, I’m not really into public self disclosure for a number of reasons, mostly because it’s irrelevant, but let’s just say that I can identify with what Fwed wrote. Been there, done that, and learned to loathe the SOBs who waged war on peasants at the expense of other prols and peasants with complete impunity.

    I did learn that no man in a position of power is to be trusted and that they and their governments and sick myrmidons need to be questioned every step of the way and ideally would be held accountable, but the latter has effectively never happened and never will.

    So sorry. You can put your curiosity on hold and pay attention to what I say, not who or what you think I am.

    PS: I could not care a bit less who or what you are; I’m here to judge the quality of your comments, not to form opinions about you per se. Get the hint? And please quit apologizing for the lame official story regarding 9/11 if you have any self respect at all or want to be taken somewhat seriously.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  314. @Sam Shama

    …you’ll perhaps step away from keyboard warfare and get on with the infinitely more difficult task of finding actual evidence for your fable?

    What credible evidence exists for the “official” fable?

  315. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Fred Reed

    Fred, Every time you comment on this topic, I lose more respect for your opinion. Your comments are not even good from an “anti-truther” perspective. They are just, well, lame and weak. If you were not a writer for this site, I would consider your comments completely irrelevant and not pay them any attention at all.

    On the up side, seeing some of the kind of stuff that you, a prominent writer, puts out, gives me some increased respect for my own writing. Thanks!

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  316. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    More here from the 9/11 Commission senior legal counsel, John Farmer, Dean of Rutgers School of Law, etc., etc.:

    The Ground Truth: The Untold Story of America Under Attack on 9/11

    As one of the primary authors of the 9/11 Commission Report, John Farmer … came away from the experience convinced that there was a further story to be told, one he was uniquely qualified to write.

    Now that story can be told. Tape recordings, transcripts, and contemporaneous records that had been classified have since been declassified, and the inspector general?s investigations of government conduct have been completed. Drawing on his knowledge of those sources, as well as his years as an attorney in public and private practice, Farmer reconstructs the truth of what happened on that fateful day and the disastrous circumstances that allowed it …

    Ultimately, Farmer builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version … is almost entirely untrue but serves to create a false impression of order and security.

    For example:

    Farmer states…“at some level of the government, at some point in time…there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened… I was shocked at how different the truth was from the way it was described …. The [Norad air defense] tapes told a radically different story from what had been told to us and the public for two years. This is not spin.”

  317. Art says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Paul C.: Never has a steel frame structure collapsed from fire except on 9/11.

    JJS: So what? On 9/11, a steel frame structure collapsed from the effects of fire. Are you saying that exceptions prove the rule? They don’t.

    So What?

    Never before – none since – three in a matter of hours!

    Suspicious?

    Hmm.

  318. dahoit says:
    @Delinquent Snail

    That still doesn’t explain no eyewitness reporting a jet or missile verbally,post seizure of cameras.And how would they get all the cameras or photos, that seizure?
    Flight 800 they did the same,but verbal missile talk was still heard from some eyewitnesses.Weird.Very.
    Hydrophobic;A condition of rabies,as in the rabid rat that roars,Zion.
    I must be on to something they don’t want illuminated.
    They fired the poet laurete of NJ,post 9-11,for staying the Israeli warning to its citizens to stay home that day,Amiri Baraka.I have never seen any rebuttal or confirmation anywhere about that.
    A very smoking gun eh?

  319. To Paul C.:

    When criminals are in charge of investigations and Mainstream Media outlets report their criminal findings, there is scant need to back up ANYTHING with verifiable evidence.

    Here are 2 simple examples of what happens to “evidence” when criminals have total control of crime scene EVIDENCE that runs amok from engineered deception. Almost 53 years ago, JFK’s death-limo was taken straight to a scrapyard, as were the metal remnants of the three (3) 9-11 Towers.

    How has our country failed to catch on to such an old trick?

    Where is Phil Giraldi? Would be swell to have him intervene this evening while Hillary and Trump run away (like a plague) from the spectacle of American families (of 9-11 victims) who were thwarted in their legal pursuit for a fact-based/honest determination on “who dunnit.”

  320. dahoit says:
    @Sam J.

    Totally with you on the demo,it sure looked it to me,but if Trump is working for the zionists,it can only be as whipping boy.
    Yeah,DT loves being character assassinated daily.C’mon,the zionists want no part of America First,because then their grandiose schemes are dead.
    They do what they do with our permission.What they do hurts US in many many ways,and any rational sovereign American POTUS would say cease and desist.
    Trump is a rational American patriot.

    • Replies: @Sam J.
  321. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hehehe, but look Rurik, what you need to understand is that Sam Shameless here is also a “filthy rotten greedy Zionist POS” much like Larry Silverstein… he may not be a powerful Zio POS, but he is still one of them & that’s his team and tribe, make no mistake about it…

    Cheers

    • Replies: @Rurik
  322. Art says:
    @Sam Shama

    Rurik: So it is perfectly understandable that you’d want to do some damage control when it came to Israel’s treachery vis-a-vis 9/11.

    Shama: I had to laugh out loud at this.

    Hmm – laughing – ha!

    Please tell us why you and the other ZZ’s (Zionist Zombies) are so totally busy on this 9/11 article?

    One would logically think that it must be a grave matter to you poor Little Jews.

    (Big Jews act – Little Jews suffer.)

    (Little Jews are the prime example of the Stockholm syndrome – Big Jews terrorize them when they are children – and when they grow up they defend the Big Jews like Zombies.)

    (Those Little Jews are so stupid – all those intellects and they are psychologically controlled by their own brainstems – if it were not so sad – it would be funny.)

    • Replies: @L.K
  323. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    The Middle East did not require 9/11 to create strife.

    Hey, iffen. Could you do us a favour and give us your impressions of PNAC’s A Clean Break and/or Oded Yinon’s A Strategy for Israel During the 1980s?

    If your goal is as ambitious as remaking the ME, an extraordinary catalyst is needed, no?

    America has been going to war world-wide since the dawning of Pax America (even before) it is not restricted to the Middle East.

    True enough, but all these previous wars were fought to benefit America’s interests. The wars in the ME are fought to benefit Israel’s interests.

    • Replies: @iffen
  324. L.K says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    No. But you know what I really hate, JJ, I hate lying basterds such as yourself.

    There is not a shred of truth in you… your mission here is so painfully obvious.

    BTW, I’m waiting on your explanation to the following basic question;
    Why did the government destroy the evidence b4 it could be examined, in direct violation of federal law regarding crime scene protocol?
    The worst terror attack in the history of the US & the government proceeded to quickly destroy the evidence b4 a forensic investigation of it could be performed.
    Why?

    PS: Former Israeli Minister Shulamit Aloni: “Anti-Semitism Is a Trick That We Always Use”:

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  325. L.K says:
    @Art

    Hey Art,

    Rurik: So it is perfectly understandable that you’d want to do some damage control when it came to Israel’s treachery vis-a-vis 9/11.

    Shama: I had to laugh out loud at this.

    Art, he ain’t laughing! Oh, no, you can smell the fear & dread, really…

    Why?

    US Marine Corps veteran, Vietnam veteran, graduate of the US Army War College & a Director of Studies at the US Army War College for over 5 years, Dr. Alan Sabrosky, says that after studying the facts surrounding 9/11 he is 100% certain that ISRAEL DID IT.
    Listen to what he says:

    @1:14 more or less, Dr.Sabrosky says that if the American people find out about it, Zionism and Israel are finished.”it’ll be a brutal war, and they are gone”.

    So, very high stakes for these folks, Art. They know it.

  326. @jacques sheete

    Well, I’m not really into public self disclosure for a number of reasons, mostly because it’s irrelevant, but let’s just say that I can identify with what Fwed wrote.

    I don’t believe you.

    So sorry. You can put your curiosity on hold and pay attention to what I say, not who or what you think I am.

    Curiosity? About you? Very little. You disparage Reed, yet claim you have combat experience that would put you in a position of being qualified to judge. I think you’re bullshitting.

    I could not care a bit less who or what you are; I’m here to judge the quality of your comments, not to form opinions about you per se.

    Ah, now therein lies a very profound difference. I am not here to judge the quality of your comments.

    And please quit apologizing for the lame official story regarding 9/11 if you have any self respect at all or want to be taken somewhat seriously.

    Oh, fuck off. Not once have I said I believe the official story.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  327. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Hey, iffen. Could you do us a favour and give us your impressions of PNAC’s A Clean Break and/or Oded Yinon’s A Strategy for Israel During the 1980s?
    If your goal is as ambitious as remaking the ME, an extraordinary catalyst is needed, no?
    America has been going to war world-wide since the dawning of Pax America (even before) it is not restricted to the Middle East.
    True enough, but all these previous wars were fought to benefit America’s interests. The wars in the ME are fought to benefit Israel’s interests.

    Geo, do I ever ask you to read any propaganda? I think it was you who suggested the Mearsheimer and Walt article to me.

    I don’t have a goal in mind for the ME. Sometimes I wish all of the towel-headed camel fuckers and the yarmulke dickheads would all go away.

    America’s interests are problematic.

    Ask me a decent fucking straight question or leave me the hell alone.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @geokat62
  328. Art,

    This is a $ multi-billion evil crime syndicate operating on a global scale. The leaderships’ names are included in Christopher Bollyn’s book, “Solving 9-11.”

    Like a dog, Mr. Bollyn got beaten for skillfully investigating the satanic mass murder and the pursuant Wars of Terror which are now being committed in America’s name. So you know, the author does not lower the integrity of his INVESTIGATION & FINDINGS by needlessly beating up Melvin-The-Shoemaker;” like the Promised Land-Grand Inquisitor did to octogenarian Ivan Demjanjuk. Should I… should we?

    One fractured parable to-g0, okay, Art? A few years ago, Pope Benedict blessed ex-CIA Director Leon Panetta in Rome and thanked him for “Keeping the world safe.” Panetta is what I would call a Big Catholic who helped keep the crooked Goldman Sachs world safe, and I am what might be called a Little Byzantine Catholic who makes rather volatile comments on The Unz Review. Moral — would YOU consider my “post” either sad, funny, or stupid?

  329. geokat62 says:
    @Sam Shama

    I have no concerns, none at all in this regard…

    What do make of this evidence, Sam?

    The best source that documents the activities of the Israelis is a memorandum prepared by Gerald Shea, an international corporate lawyer. He submitted it to the 9/11 Commission back on September 15, 2004. In it, he pleads for a public inquiry on the basis of Israeli Surveillance of the Future Hijackers and FBI Suspects in the September 11 Attacks and Their Failure to Give Us Adequate Warning.

    Here’s the intro:

    I am an international corporate lawyer, writing to you today about a matter of public policy that is relevant to the circumstances surrounding, and our preparedness for, the catastrophic attacks on September 11, 2001. I do not know whether the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks (the “Commission”) or the Senate and House Committees on Intelligence (the “Committees”) have had the opportunity to consider these issues carefully. If so, I hope this memorandum will be helpful. If not, I respectfully urge them, in accordance with the mandate of the Commission’s charter and in the exercise of the Committees’ responsibilities, to investigate the facts and resolve the questions presented.

    Here’s the Detailed Summary:

    • Replies: @geokat62
  330. @L.K

    But you know what I really hate, JJ, I hate lying basterds such as yourself. There is not a shred of truth in you

    Personally, I feel a rather strong distaste for arrogant, blatantly anti-semitic assholes who use a lot of boldface type and can’t spell “bastard”.

    BTW, I’m waiting on your explanation to the following basic question;
    Why did the government destroy the evidence b4 it could be examined

    Why would you be waiting for my “explanation”, when you state so emphatically that all I do is lie?

    Lukky, I’ve encountered dozens like you on the networks, going all the way back to casual on-line conversations over Hopkins’ Darpanet terminal in the 70′s. You’re a complete asshole, Lukky. You’re Ignored. Bye now.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Stonehands
  331. Sam J. says:
    @dahoit

    I totally 100% positive in everything Trump says. I believe we should do everything he says and I’ll vote for him because…Hillary is worse but I can’t help but notice that we are seemly being herded to him like sheep. Trump has long standing ties with some really unsavory Jews. He’s surrounded by Jews in his campaign. His kids are married to Jews and his grandchildren are Jews. That should give pause if you believe that the Jews are THE major problem that the US faces now and in the future.

  332. @The Scalpel

    You are attempting to reason with a Coincidence Theorist, by definition that is impossible.

    JJS has invested much of his time trolling on this thread in the last 2 days, mostly arguing that conspiracies almost never happen and apparently that coincidences almost always do.

    Seeing the amount downright idiotic commenter responses here on The Unz Review makes me realise that the American people will likely never wake up to the 9/11 Conspiracy and that the US is truly stuffed and I’m so glad that I bailed on it when I did.

  333. L.K says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    JJS to Rurik:
    “Rurik, you ARE a conspiracy theorist”

    Boy, as a troll, you ain’t even funny.

    Do you even understand what the word ‘conspiracy’ means, stupid?

    So, ZUSA’S government BS story, which you claim to believe, is, in point of fact, a conspiracy theory, and a rather lame one at that… one without a leg to stand on.
    You, as a good boy, pretend to believe the official conspiracy theory while at the same time trying to smear us with the tired “conspiracy theorist” label & spamming this thread with your ridiculous lies and obfuscation.
    Double Yawnnnn…

    Mr.Unz wrote recently a very interesting piece titled:
    American Pravda: How the CIA Invented “Conspiracy Theories”

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/

    From the article one reads:

    “…I stumbled across a short but fascinating book published by the University of Texas academic press. The author of Conspiracy Theory in America was Prof. Lance deHaven-Smith, a former president of the Florida Political Science Association.

    Based on an important FOIA disclosure, the book’s headline revelation was that the CIA was very likely responsible for the widespread introduction of “conspiracy theory” as a term of political abuse, having orchestrated that development as a deliberate means of influencing public opinion.”

    I’d recommend you read it, but then I would falsely assume you to be a Truth seeker instead of the sad little liar you truly are.

  334. @The Scalpel

    On the up side, seeing some of the kind of stuff that you, a prominent writer, puts out, gives me some increased respect for my own writing. Thanks!

    It never fails to amaze me when I observe presumably intelligent people disparage the writing of a fairly prominent author, followed by a brag about the quality of their own writing. Dead giveaway — you are unpublished.

    For 15 years (1982 – 1997), everything I wrote for publication was published. It was not fiction; it was not political commentary; it was not mass-market material. Do I compare my writing to Reed’s? Hell no.

  335. Art,

    I try to avoid self righteousness here, but grave injustices (leading only to the Abyss), are done by plastering an entire race/religion as R.C.R.A.-regulated hazardous waste.

    Look at video, below, as Ahmadinejad greets Jews at a United Nations get together?

    Such a meeting would be enough to piss off a Zionist Pope, eh Art?

    • Replies: @Art
  336. Boris says:
    @Art

    YAWEH DAMN IT! I guess the jig is up, guys. This dude figured out that Everyone who doesn’t agree that CGI planes were used to conceal Steelmelter miisiles is a Jew-controlled robot. Can you believe the commenters at Unz cracked it? Might as well release the videoso now. These geniuses beat us. Better luck with the flesh removal machine, I guess. Dang.

    • Replies: @Art
  337. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    I think it was you who suggested the Mearsheimer and Walt article to me.

    Are you suggesting M&W are propagandists? Any evidence to support that assertion?

    Ask me a decent fucking straight question or leave me the hell alone.

    IIRC, when you first started posting comments on Unz you were keen on pestering me with (in)decent questions. Just returning the favour, iffen.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @iffen
  338. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    Let me try that again.

    Here’s the Detailed Summary:

    [MORE]

    Set forth below is a detailed summary of the tentative conclusions reached in this memorandum, which amply illustrate the urgent need for a public inquiry into the activities of the Israeli DEA Groups and the Israeli New Jersey Group. The inquiry must include, without limitation, the examination of members of the Israel Groups and related persons; officials of the Israeli government and certain of its agencies, including Mossad; FBI suspects, agents of the DEA, the INS and the FBI; certain local law enforcement officials; agents of the CIA (in camera to the extent required); other intelligence sources cited by the public press to the extent possible; the boxes of documents and computer hard drives (referred on page 29) seized by the FBI from the Israeli New Jersey Group; and of all other relevant documents, reports, communiqués and information.–

    1. The Israeli DEA Groups were spying on the Drug
    Enforcement Agency and thus upon the United
    States. The DEA itself has concluded that they
    were probably engaged in organized intelligence
    gathering on our soil.

    2. A highly regarded American journal knowledgeable
    about Israeli affairs, has concluded (a) based on
    its own sources, that the Israeli DEA Groups were
    spying on radical Islamic networks suspected of
    links to Middle East terrorism, and (b) based on
    the representations of a former American
    intelligence official regularly briefed on these
    matters by law enforcement officials, that (i) at
    least two members of the Israeli New Jersey Group
    were Mossad operatives, (ii) Urban Moving, the
    company used by the Israeli New Jersey Group, was
    a front for Mossad and its operatives, and (iii)
    the Israeli New Jersey Group was spying on local
    Arabs.

    3. The intelligence sources of a substantial
    American television network report that the
    Israeli DEA Groups may have gathered information
    about the September 11 attacks in advance, and
    not shared it with the United States. One
    investigator said that evidence linking the
    Israeli DEA Groups to such intelligence gathering
    was classified and could not be disclosed.

    4. The Israeli DEA Groups were comprised of 125 or
    more Israelis operating on our soil. Their
    leaders and apparent associates included military
    commanders and experts with military backgrounds
    in intelligence, electronic intercepts and
    telecommunications.

    5. The wiretapping and intelligence expertise of
    members of both Israeli Groups, and the use of
    vans in local neighborhoods where the future
    hijackers were planning the attacks, and the
    extensive use by the hijackers of cell phones and
    land lines, made the Israeli Groups ideally
    suited to gather information regarding the
    hijackers’ plans.

    6. The principal operation of the Israeli DEA Groups
    was located in and around Hollywood, Florida, the
    central training and staging ground for the
    hijacking of North and South Tower Planes and the
    Pennsylvania Plane. The addresses and places of
    residence of the members of the Israeli DEA
    Groups in Hollywood itself were within hundreds
    of yards those of the future hijackers.

    7. The operations of both the Israeli New Jersey
    Group and the hijackers of the Pentagon Plane
    were centered in Hudson and Bergen Counties in
    New Jersey, within a common radius of about
    six miles.

    8. All five celebrating members of the Israeli New
    Jersey Group arrested on September 11 were aware,
    when the North Tower Plane struck the World Trade
    Center, based on their immediate reaction to the
    attack and the information said to be contained
    in their van, that the attack had been planned
    and carried out by Arab terrorists.

    9. After being questioned by the FBI on September
    11, the leader of the Israeli New Jersey Group
    immediately fled the United States to Israel.
    His name and aliases appear, along with those of
    the hijackers and other FBI suspects, on the May
    2002 FBI Suspect list.

    10. Israeli intelligence officials have reported that
    two senior officials of Mossad warned the United
    States in August 2001 that as many as 200
    terrorists on American soil were planning an
    imminent large-scale attack on high visibility
    targets on the American mainland. One press
    report states that in August Mossad provided the
    CIA with the names of future hijackers Khaled al
    Mihdhar and Nawaf al Hazmi.

    11. The CIA’s explanation of how Mihdhar’s and
    Hazmi’s names were placed on the Watchlist
    through the spontaneous efforts of CIA and FBI
    agents is not only difficult to follow but, as
    the sole reason for the Watchlisting, hardly
    credible.

    12. Mossad’s own information appears to have come
    from its sources inside the United States. All
    of the facts and circumstances set forth in this
    memorandum appear to show that Mossad’s two
    likely sources of information were: (a) the
    Israeli DEA Groups, comparable in number to that
    of the Arab suspects and who appear to have
    tracked the future hijackers in their central
    places of operation and in other states, and (b)
    the Israeli New Jersey Group, operating through
    their Mossad front in another principal locus of
    operations of the future hijackers, two of whom
    were Mossad agents, and five of whom appeared
    immediately aware of the origin of the attacks on
    September 11.

    13. While little direct evidence supports the
    contention that the CIA was aware of or condoned
    the Israeli Groups’ tracking of Arab terrorist
    groups in the United States prior to September
    11, the CIA’s pressing for the expulsion of
    members of the Israeli DEA Groups when they were
    detained before September 11, their failure to
    cooperate with the FBI, their circuitous
    explanation of how the above two hijackers were
    placed on the Watchlist, and other relevant
    considerations require that the issue be taken up
    as a part of the public inquiry into these
    painful events.

    http://www.antiwar.com/rep2/MemorandumtotheCommissionandSelectCommitteesbold.pdf

  339. Alden says:
    @WorkingClass

    There is an old French saying
    Society is like a stew. The scum rises to the top, the dregs fall to the bottom and the good meat and vegetables are in between.

    But with affirmative action, the dregs are artificially raised to the top and join the scum.

  340. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Oh, fuck off. .

    And the same to you. And take yer voyeurism with you.

    Ah, now therein lies a very profound difference. I am not here to judge the quality of your comments.

    Good thing for you. I don’t think yer even partially qualified to judge much of anything.

    PS: I don’t care whether you believe me or not. FYI, this thread is not about me and no one comes here out of curiosity about me. So stuffit. And another thing…I don’t think Fwed needs yer defense. He’s a big boy, ya know.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  341. mcohen says:

    the 911 was committed by deepstate actors linked to the dod.it was an act of civil war committed by american forces oppossed to the direction american elites were taking.the attack on the pentagon was part of a subsequent counter attack after which a truce was called.any subsequent infomation is bullshit.america is at war with itself at the expense of the American people.

    hows that for a conspiracy theory.no wonder bush supports clinton.he knows whats at stake
    trump might get a chance at reconciling the 2 sides and healing the rift
    hope you got the balls to post this mr ron unz

  342. Art says:
    @Chuck Orloski

    I try to avoid self righteousness here, but grave injustices (leading only to the Abyss), are done by plastering an entire race/religion as R.C.R.A.-regulated hazardous waste.

    Oh my – once again – not every Jew is bad – so you can not speak poorly of Jews as a people – a religion – or a tribe.

    For the record – 85% of the worlds Jews are Zionists – that is a number given to me by a Jew. It is more than likely bigger than that.

    Those 85% would not shed a tear if every Palestinian where to disappear tonight.

    Zionism is the dark side of Jewish culture – it totally comes out of the Jewish collective mindset. Clearly the dark side of Judaism dominates the bright side. Jews left to themselves have created Israel – the major source of upheaval in this world.

    Israel is Zionism – and Zionism is evil.

    All of the JEWS have the responsibility to clean up their evil – end of story.

    • Replies: @mcohen
  343. Mulegino1 says:

    Although the adjective “retarded” tends to be a somewhat hackneyed Americanism, its use is certainly called for with respect to the official MSM legend of 9/11. The entire pseudo-religious narrative is, indeed, “retarded” to the max.

    Anyone who views the contemporaneous footage can see for himself that there were no “collapses” of skyscrapers on 9/11. WTC 1 and 2 did not “collapse”, nor were they demolished in a conventional manner. They were disintegrated, with most of their steel and concrete cores being converted to fine dust. The destruction of WTC 1 and 2 (not to mention the core of WTC6) was not due to jet fuel, airliner impacts, or conventional demolition materials. The Twin Towers were almost certainly brought down by small – or perhaps micro – nuclear weapons. No other scenario is even possible, given that the events had all the signatures of nuclear detonations:

    Mushroom clouds (compare these to those accompanying underground detonations of smaller tactical nukes – they are virtually indistinguishable).

    Fireballs (visible in closeups of the North Tower immediately prior to collapse).

    Seismic events – clear evidence of massive underground detonations.

    Electromagnetic pulse (the metallic components of vehicles untouched by structural fires and not struck by any falling debris suddenly burst into flames).

    Super hot temperatures, sufficient to melt concrete and bedrock.

    Self fueling fires which burned underground for months after the events of 9/11.

    Molecular dissociation of steel and concrete.

    Trace elements consistent only with a nuclear event.

    Diseases present among the first responders and clean up workers attributable to radiation poisoning.

    Now, compare this to the tragicomic official legend of Arab hijackers and jet fuel based office fires. It is quite obvious that the entire kosher story is a (badly crafted) Jewish fable. In the Atlanticist-Zionists’ haste to advance their “Project for a New American Century”, they were very sloppy. Seriously, 19 Arab amateur pilots? Jet fuel? “The plane (a light, ductile, even fragile fuselage and nose cone – which can be damaged by collision with birds at cruising speed – “Went right through the (steel and concrete) building”? Retarded indeed!

  344. Blake says:

    And the day before trillions went missing from Pentagon coffers….with a Rabbi at the helm. Go figure.

  345. L.K says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Ok… so, you’ve got nada, nichts, niente.

    The real reason you won’t provide an explanation, insect, is bc there is no plausible justification for what the authorities did, the destruction of the evidence, and you know that.
    If you were to try to weasel your way out of that one, whatever “explanation” you came up with would just more clearly show what a lying POS you really are.
    But we knew that already.
    Bye now.

  346. @Mulegino1

    This is why I tend to analogize 9-11 with Hiroshima rather than Pearl Harbor: it was essentially a weapons test. The damage to the cars in the surrounding area is one of the more striking features, this obviously has nothing to do with burning jet fuel.

    • Replies: @Mulegino1
  347. @jacques sheete

    PS: I don’t care whether you believe me or not.

    You shouldn’t, but why make a point, twice, of denying it?

    Your posts lack meaningful content. You are Ignored. Bye now.

  348. mcohen says:
    @Art

    art
    i notice you write with great passion and seem to have a deep knowledge of the jewish people.you are a true believer but unfortunately you remain a internet forum bullshit art ist until proven otherwise.
    therefore in order to redeem yourself could you please post a link to your business website with you holding up a sign saying…….”the jews did it”…..7364674322

  349. @John Jeremiah Smith

    For 15 years (1982 – 1997), everything I wrote for publication was published.

    Yeah, Sam told us about it.

    Sam Shama
    says:

    October 26, 2016 at 1:18 am GMT • 100 Words

    A chemist at the local drugstore tells us of a study he published in the subscription-based open journal of Chemistry at Timbuktu University. It demonstrated that gold is the output of subjecting iron to a precise temperature in an emulsion of natural gas. To put everything in a business footing, I’d suggest you to buy shares in the venture….

    Or were you the guy who got both his articles published in Model Railroading?
    ;)

  350. geokat62 says:
    @geokat62

    … when you first started posting comments on Unz…

    Correction: I made the assumption that it was soon after you started posting comments, but it was much later.

  351. Kyle says:

    The Biggest Fallacy in loose change is this. Steel does not need to melt in order to loose structural stability. Molten steel is liquid. Steel looses stability far, far before it becomes liquid.
    But Ive always wondered why the buildings fell so perfectly, and how they fell so fast. And how did building 7 fall so perfectly. Im not an engineer. The pancake theory starts with the results, and works back towards proving that a plane strike and fire could cause it. Thus, it is impossible to disprove that plane strikes could cause the towers to pancake in on themselves and collapse.

    There are other odd things about 9/11, which suggest plausibility that someone, somewhere in the governement knew about the possibility of terrorist attacks and let them happen. \ I was in 5th grade at the time, and while getting picked up early from school I found it odd listening to the radio in the car, hearing the news claiming that osama bin laden was already the number 1 suspect. How did they know it was him so quickly, unless our government already knew or suspected him of plotting terrorist attacks.
    Why was there a Norad drill on the morning of 9/11 involving similar plane hijacking scenarios?
    There were politicians who canceled flights on that morning. united flight 93 was reported to have landed in Cleveland. Mark Whalberg and the family guy guy were both supposed to be on flight 11, but their agents canceled their flights. Emeril lagasse stopped to get a hair cut on the bottom floor before going into work.

    Are these all coincidences? Probably, but conspiracy theories are great fun.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  352. Mulegino1 says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Absolutely! Hiroshima and Nagasaki had nothing to do with forcing Japan to surrender, and everything to do with frightening “Uncle Joe” (who was actually not frightened at all!).

  353. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    Sometimes I wish all of the towel-headed camel fuckers and the yarmulke dickheads would all go away.

    Not sure if this qualifies as a decent effing question, iffen, but how come current day Nazi hunters can get away with making this statement, but current day Nazis can’t?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rurik
  354. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Turning to the question that Giraldi raised:

    Was 9/11 and American coup?

    The answer is no. There was no change in government.

    The Kennedy assassination was a coup, probably orchestrated by Allen Dulles (CIA Director, just fired by Kennedy) with a nod from LBJ, who was the prime beneficiary of the plot and the man placed in a position as a result of the assassination to order a cover up.

    Nine-11 was a false flag to justify launching the long war for domination of the Middle-East, central Asia, and the World. It was, thus, a SCAD or a state crime against democracy.

    Was it a Jewish plot?

    Well there were plenty of Jews at PNAC hoping for a “new Pearl Harbor” to justify the military build-up necessary to the launch of the New World Order. But then there were Bush’s, Clinton’s and plenty of other goys for the New World Order too.

    Was Dr. Alan Sabrosky right in saying Mossad did it?

    It seems likely that Israeli agents played a major role. Remember the Israeli art projects housed on the 91st floor of WTC 1, evocatively named The E-Team, and Gelitin. They had unrestricted access to the towers for weeks and were supplied with stacks of cases containing what appears to have been electrical gear.

    What’s more, as Netenyahoo said on the day, Nine-eleven was “very good for Israel.” But if Israel did it, all that means is that criminals in the White House outsourced the job. Remember, also, that Pakistan’s ISI was funneling money to the hijackers, and the Saudis may have had a role too.

    • Replies: @Erebus
  355. At the time of the 9/11 attacks, there was a great deal of information surrounding the Israeli involvement. All that disappeared into the memory hole and the trail went cold – deliberately. We may never know what happened that day, even though we know that what our government told us was certainly not true.

    Some of you may remember this video:

    But now it no longer matters because the perpetrators were really good at covering their tracks, hurriedly transporting all evidence off to China and elsewhere to be destroyed, and even the suspects transported out of the country without an explanation. So, all we can do is plead for an independent investigation, while those with a lot to lose call us names and tell us why it would be a waste of time. That’s right, just like with the Holocaust, those who question the established narrative are kooks and clowns, or even worse, racists. Conspiracies never happen, only coincidences do.

    A conspiracy is defined as ‘a secret plan by a group to do something unlawful or harmful.’

    The government has a conspiracy theory that on 9/11, such a group was comprised of nineteen cavemen without the aptitude to fly a Cessna trainer, who were magically able to pilot 767 jets and perform maneuvers that would put an air force ace to shame, and precisely hit two towers while flying at over 500 MPH – something that most seasoned pilots would consider nearly impossible to do (ask any pilot). A third was able to hit the side of the Pentagon while cruising at a high velocity very close to the surface, ignoring ground effect (look it up or ask a pilot), and disappearing into a small hole. Meanwhile, three steel-framed towers disintegrated into their own foundations, with one not even being hit by a plane, because of low temperature kerosene fires, something that has never happened with a single building in history, or since then, and is explained as an aberration that happened, not once, not twice, but three times in the same day. It is enough to give a man religion!

    The rest of us challenge this conspiracy theory by the government. Some of us have an alternate conspiracy theory, and we speculate that the conspiring group is made up of rogue elements in our government and that of Israel.

    What is our proof? Most of it is circumstantial and has been repeated zillion times. What was the government’s proof of its conspiring group? There never was any (disregarding the discovery of a pristine passport at the site), but they were able to assert who the perpetrators were, backed by a paid-for media and hordes of shills on the Internet. So, don’t ask us to prove our speculations, all we are required to do is challenge that of the government. The onus is on the government to prove their claims of who the conspirators were. Trillions of dollars from taxes on our hard-earned money and countless lives, both ours and those of the countries we invaded, should be justification enough for an independent investigation. If Hillary wins, it will never happen. If Trump wins, there is a very small chance that it could happen, however remote the possibility.

    Where we lose is that the evil ones are monied individuals, groups, and states, with control over finance, media, and politics. We are independent observers and analysts, who are not organized or monied, and have very little power. When corruption reaches such proportions, only a revolution can upend it. Power is never given up, it has to be taken away.

    We have put our faith in the mechanics of an election that has proven fraudulent in the past, but that is all we have. Our only hope of winning is if a rogue, like Trump if he can get elected, can bring the walls tumbling down from the inside. Beyond that, we are just howling at the moon. This, dear friends, is the sad state of the most powerful nation on Earth, with us on our hands and knees.

    There is so much more to say, but you have heard it all before.

  356. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Fred is like Ali with parkinson’s lol. Everyone has their cycle. His is apparently ending. I will stand by my assertion that his comments on this topic are lame and weak. Your comments are certainly better. Does that mean you were always better than him? No.

    By the way, I have been published. Check out the college text “Dissent in America” And all the articles on my web site were published by large internet commentary sites. Lew Rockwell, Anti war. How about you?

    Nice try at character assasination. Cheap shot, but I got you with the left hook lol

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  357. Art says:
    @Boris

    YAWEH DAMN IT! I guess the jig is up, guys. This dude figured out that Everyone who doesn’t agree that CGI planes were used to conceal Steelmelter miisiles is a Jew-controlled robot.

    (I see Hasbara Central is bringing in the reserves.)

    Hi Boris,

    You are so subtle – I like your style. That is bonus shekel stuff. Keep up the good work.

    Art

    p.s. I will call down to the Hasbara Central basement supervisor and put in a good word for you.

    p.s. Your welcome.

    • Replies: @Boris
  358. Erebus says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Was 9/11 and American coup?
    The answer is no. There was no change in government.

    Not so fast, Can. The Deep State may well have changed. Or, one faction may have risen above all others, consolidating its position by sending a message to the others:
    “Behold my works ye Mighty, and despair”.

    Or, if mcohen’s theory above (http://www.unz.com/article/911-truth/#comment-1623754) is right, it may have been an attempted coup that failed.
    At any rate, the Neocons sure found their legs after 9/11, so my guess is that TPTB behind them made their point plain to the right audience.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  359. Art,

    In my world view, everyone is obligated to cleanup their own ways of evil. I believe the Jews who met with President Ahmadinejad at the U.N. tried their best to show the world that not every Jew buys into the evil promoted by their 85%. Refer to Jerusalem Post “Link” below?

    http://m.jpost.com/Not-Just-News/Jerusalem-Post-50-Most-Influential-Jews-Number-1-Haim-Saban-468975#article=6019OThDNzZEMzk3R

    Thank you, your joke about the supervisor of Hasbara Central is very comical!

  360. @Kyle

    A person who is not a conspiracy theorist is automatically a coincidence theorist. Look into the various coincidences concerning 9/11 and you end up believing that it is possible to win the lottery every day for a year.

    Blatant markers for any false flag events are the ability to bypass established security (i.e.Vigilant Warrior drill for 9/11) The ability to get the false narrative into the media immediately (as you pointed out). The ability to suppress later facts that contradict the official narrative and the ability to effect a cover-up. Clearly the Mob couldn’t do that nor could terrorists, unless the terrorists are the deep state itself.

  361. mcohen says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    c and d

    you know i read your post and it moved me to tears.i was touched.i have heard been said that the truth will shine a light upon the wicked and there sins shall reflect a darkness upon the heavens and cause the heavenly father to send an angel to walk amongst us and lift us out of the darkness so we may see the the light.i wrote a short prayer after the bombing in memory of those who were torn from us

    when day turns to night
    and angels do take flight
    as souls begin to burn
    let the brave stand firm
    come let us all join together
    in a circle we shall stand
    to bring the light
    to shine upon this land

    i hope this short prayer will give you strenght

  362. Boris says:
    @Art

    Someone is itching to be the first victim of the flesh removal machine.

  363. Phil

    If you go over to Qura….you can find several discussion threads about the collapse of the TT and building 7. It’s a discussion among physicists and engineers with very detailed explanations. The 9/11 Truther Cultist foolishly pop up in these discussions and have their backsides handed to them in humiliating defeat.

    You can find 15 years of these kinds of debates with Truthers on the Internet.

    For the record, the NIST measurement of the time it took for building 7 to collapse is the most accurate measurement of the collapse….and they NIST Scientist go into great detail about their methodology with regard to this. This decisively refutes Tuther claims of a controlled demolition…as does the testimony of the Leozeaux Family the most famous demolition experts in the World.

    All of the 9/11 Truther Science is unpublishable sewage….the one journal where it was published is not considered a significant chemistry journal….Moreover, there is now well strong evidence that there was wierd stuff going on behind the scenes with the editorial board of this journal that caused the resignation of several of the editors-reviewers of this chemistry including one who was a serious research academic in chemistry.

    9/11 was completely avoidable:NO PASSAGE OF THE 1965 IMMIGRATION REFORM ACT+A NATIONAL ORIGINS IMMIGRATION POLICY THAT COMPLETELY EXCLUDED ALL MUSLIMS=0 probability of 9/11 ever occuring….

  364. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    but how come current day Nazi hunters can get away with making this statement, but current day Nazis can’t?

    Do as I say, not as I do?

  365. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    Hey L.K.

    sometimes I think like he doesn’t like me much

    and desires bad things to happen to me

    Cheers

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @L.K
  366. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Are you suggesting M&W are propagandists? Any evidence to support that assertion?

    iffen says:

    May 4, 2016 at 12:57 pm GMT • 100 Words

    I read the Mearsheimer and Walt article that you provided.

    I was impressed with the scholarship and saved it for future reference.

    Geo, I don’t mind the dialogue, but if you have a comment of mine that you are working from, clue me in to the comment. I am not going to spend a lot of time searching mine and your comments trying to figure out what you are talking about.

    I don’t recall specifically calling you a Nazi. My time here in the Unz comment section has been a learning experience. I have modified my views and my comments based on what I think of as a better understanding on my part.

    If you have a specific comment of mine that you question, give me the comment and I will tell you whether I stand by it, have changed my mine or wish to modify it.

    And if you are looking at comments, see if I ever asked you to read something, because I don’t remember doing that either.

  367. Rurik says:
    @Mulegino1

    Now, compare this to the tragicomic official legend of Arab hijackers and jet fuel based office fires. It is quite obvious that the entire kosher story is a (badly crafted) Jewish fable. In the Atlanticist-Zionists’ haste to advance their “Project for a New American Century”, they were very sloppy. Seriously, 19 Arab amateur pilots? Jet fuel?

    your savvy with the particulars and science of the crime are impressive

    WTC 1 and 2 did not “collapse”, nor were they demolished in a conventional manner. They were disintegrated, with most of their steel and concrete cores being converted to fine dust. The destruction of WTC 1 and 2 (not to mention the core of WTC6) was not due to jet fuel, airliner impacts, or conventional demolition materials

    yes, all that steel and steel-reinforced concrete rendered into so much powder, with steel visibly vaporizing into fine dust on videos that are available. Cars inexplicably scorched to the bone

    But I fear when you get too deep into the particulars, there’s a tendency for the conversation to get sidetracked down rabbit holes that become a distraction.

    The 9/11 debate needs tiers or levels where those who’re under the thrall of the official narrative can be gently guided to the often impossible realization that this was done by elements within our own government and media. And then deeper tiers for those who’ve made that quantum leap and now want to discuss the particulars.. For instance was it a missile or bomb that damaged the Pentagon. Was flight 93 shot out of the air, and if so, by whom? Why isn’t there one photo of even one body from the crash? Were the planes that hit the towers empty or still full of passengers. (some even go as far as to suggest there were no planes at all).

    But these questions are all academic, and the exact type of methods used to destroy the buildings are important, but can be too much for the novice, I suspect. They need to be guided gently to the harsh truth that we’ve all been lied to. And then from there, the experts can debate the particulars.

    anyways, good comment

  368. Rurik says:
    @geokat62

    Sometimes I wish all of the towel-headed camel fuckers and the yarmulke dickheads would all go away.

    how come current day Nazi hunters can get away with making this statement, but current day Nazis can’t?

    because Jews are sacrosanct and are the only ones allowed to criticize other Jews

    if you’re a Palestinian who criticizes what some Jews do = you’re a terrorist

    if you’re a white Gentile who criticizes what some Jews do = you’re a neo-Nazi

    this meme has been carefully inserted into our collective conscious since we were all children watching the grainy newsreels of the Holocaust, and are reinforce in the classroom with mandated ‘Holocaust’ curriculums and with just about every movie that’s been made in Hollywood since. Almost every single movie has some obscure reference to the Holocaust or Nazis. Even if it’s nearly imperceptible (the most effective kind)

    How many people ever noticed that ALL the evil people in the Matrix movie were all white men, while the ‘good’ people were a (very) cosmopolitan mixture of diversity. Those memes are everywhere in Hollywood and Madison Ave. And the effects are powerful, especially if you don’t even notice them.

    So Geo, that’s the answer to your very good query, IMHO

  369. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    “For the record, the NIST measurement of the time it took for building 7 to collapse is the most accurate measurement of the collapse….and they NIST Scientist go into great detail about their methodology with regard to this. This decisively refutes Tuther claims of a controlled demolition…”

    Again, this statement is false. I cannot let it stand unopposed. I called this man out on this statement previously, and now he has repeated it. The writer of this statement is a fool or a liar. In either case, he is not to be trusted.

  370. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,
    On the contrary; I enjoy chatting with you and like you.

    L.K. the reptile, on the other hand, I am considering asking my friends in unit Shmone Matayim to hunt.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Rurik
  371. @The Scalpel

    By the way, I have been published. Check out the college text “Dissent in America” And all the articles on my web site were published by large internet commentary sites. Lew Rockwell, Anti war. How about you?

    I do no political writing for publication, and I have done no political writing for publication. I said that quite clearly, as well as noting the time-frame in which I published. Perhaps, if you read more for actual content, you would imagine less “character assassination.”

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  372. @The Scalpel

    Troll. End of communication.

    Yeah, I thought I recognized an ego that couldn’t handle the truth. Perhaps I will round up a few acquaintances who will purge this echo chamber of squalling infants. UR badly needs commenters of higher quality. At this point, Giraldi must be asking Unz to change the author credit to “Anonymous”.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  373. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Hey Rurik,
    On the contrary; I enjoy chatting with you and like you.

    L.K. the reptile, on the other hand

    Divide and conquer, I like it! :)

    • Replies: @Rurik
  374. @The Scalpel

    Most definitely.

    He comes here to pull people’s chains, then gets his yanked big time. Amusing for a while. Just like his buddy Fwed’s scribbling…

  375. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Irish Ex-Catholic heterosexual male….Pamela Geller’s Wars of aggression for Greater Israel have caused my Irish Catholic Family terrible pain and suffering-specifically Gulf War 1….and it ain’t over yet… As Working Class Irish Americans are fond of saying:FUCK OFF!!!!

  376. Re: the good comment above, “I was impressed with the (Mearsheimer & Walt) scholarship & saved it for future reference.”

    Below is a pathetic WSJ article co-authored by Dr. Roger B. Myerson, the “winner” of the Nobel Memorial Prize in Economic Sciences, 2007.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/five-rules-to-get-state-building-right-1476985296

    Looking at the article’s corresponding dystopian picture, I was prompted to imagine an American future where an Israeli- trained N.Y.P.D. beat cop makes calm attempt to negotiate with an angry Hofstra U. adjunct professor who got-the-boot for their open support of B.D.S.

    I’m impressed by (Catholic) Rupert Murdoch’s WSJ selection to publish such an absurd article and I’ll save it for future refernece! Project Dr. Myerson’s staggering illogic to become the basis of a 3-credit course at University of Chicago, titled, “Post Sack Nation Building.101″?

  377. Rurik says:
    @Sam Shama

    why thank you Sam

    I also enjoy bantering with you and I feel your contributions here are important and valuable. I’ve learned much from your comments, and look forward to more of them.

    I don’t know if I ‘like you’ or not, but I suppose if I knew you, (and you weren’t trying to get me put in jail or fired or otherwise persecuted for my views), that maybe we’d be pals.

    And I also very much enjoy L.K.’s contributions here. He can be rather strident, but then so too are (Eternal) wars for Israel- strident. Perhaps I feel he’s sometimes harsh, but then so too are others here, and also when it gets a little rough, I think it’s even more entertaining, on some level perhaps, so long as it doesn’t get out of hand.

    I’d love to have a pint with both of you. That’d be an interesting gathering, don’t you think?

    cheers Sam

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @Sam Shama
  378. Rurik says:
    @iffen

    Divide and conquer, I like it! :)

    first rounds on me iffen

    we can call it the kosher88 club

    • Replies: @iffen
  379. @jacques sheete

    That’s just another way of saying that 9/11 Truthers are debating legends!!….in their own minds…And that debating skill includes harrasing and trashing the Family members of the Flight 93 dead who were speaking to their loved ones on cell phones moments before Flight 93 crashed into ground in Shanksville PA….I specifically have the cockroach Professor David Ray Griffin in mind….

    What a cabal of repellant sickos….

    • Replies: @Stonehands
  380. @Rurik

    Phil

    Dr. Judy Wood….PH.D structural engineering….is a bona fide psychotic delusional in the same way that Brian Josephson Noble Prize winner is a psychotic delusional….

    If you believe in Judy Woods sewage about ET Death Rays taking down the TT….then you might as well believe in Brian Josephson’s telekinetic “physics” explanation as to how the big faker Uri Geller bent spoons with his mind….spoonerisms physics!!!

  381. Miro23 says:

    A Coup d’état: “… is the illegal and overt seizure of a state by the military or other elites within the state apparatus.”

    So, to try and answer Giraldi’s question:

    On the day of 9/11 the state apparatus was actually taken over (for a while) and an article that foreshadowed this event appeared in Foreign Affairs Magazine (November 1998) authored by Philip Zelikow, Ashton Carter and John Deutch. They talked about a previous 1993 attack on the WTC and imagined an upgraded version:

    ” Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security, as did the Soviet atomic bomb test in 1949. Like Pearl Harbor, this event would divide our past and future into a before and after. The United States might respond with draconian measures, scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects, and use of deadly force. More violence could follow, either further terrorist attacks or U.S. counterattacks. ”

    And, that’s pretty much how it worked out. The US got its 9/11 and responded with draconian measures, scaling back civil liberties etc. destroying Iraq and introducing the Patriot Act, Homeland Security and the NSA.

    The problem of course, is that we now know that the 9/11 “act of catastrophic terrorism” was a fake, and the fact that the Coup failed in some respects (Iran + a US Emergency Regime) doesn’t make it less of a Coup . And almost predictably, the same Kennedy “Magic Bullet” syndrome has reappeared with its Wasps in a Jar effect ( a lot of buzzing going nowhere).

    So, the best way to move forward is to first retrace our steps: The 9/11 planners were terrorists who planted bombs in buildings, killing their occupants, plus airline passengers and state employees at the Pentagon. with a death toll of 2.996 US citizens.

    So, this is a murder inquiry (no need for a celebrity high level commission). Experienced police investigators can look for the standard Means, Motive & Opportunity, compile a list of suspects and detain and question them using the supplemented powers of the Patriot Act.

    With such a wide range of suspects and witnesses ranging from the top government executive to FBI operatives and the public, the police need interference free time and good funding, but principally they need absolute independent power based on the US Constitution with the only present source of this in the United States being the US military.

    In fact the investigators need to swear the same oath as the US military, and have their 100% backing in these most unusual circumstances.

    Every US officer swears and Oath of Office that has nothing to do with his later rank and is a direct personal obligation to the United States, namely:

    I, [name], do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office on which I am about to enter. So help me God.

    In this way, “enemies foreign and domestic” can be identified, caught and tried in the same military system under the present legislation applying to traitors.

    • Replies: @republic
  382. iffen says:
    @Rurik

    first rounds on me iffen

    we can call it the kosher88 club

    Not very likely at all, I know the history of commies, Jews, Nazis and beer gardens. :)

  383. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    Though the sad little liar denies it, he certainly does not like you.
    But he really hates me… I have really rattled the poor thing’s cage… hahaha

    Now, the insect is ‘considering’ sending his idf buddies(unit 8200) after my humble person!!

    Tsc, tsc, what a complete ass clown this shama guy is!

    Cheers

  384. I was just looking at the electrical symbol for a Josephson junction…I really has a rich metaphorical quality to it…the electrical symbol for Josephson junction is a line…a flat line(0 curvature)….with an X in the middle…..9/11 Truther Movement-9/11 Truther “Science” is a complete flatlinning of the the human brain….it is brain death masquerading as serious-honest scientific inquiry….The 9/11 Truther Movement is a dead-end flatlined Brain Dead Political Movement of political defeatism. Say no to this sewage!!!!……draw a flat line….stamp an X over it:SAY NO TO 9/11 TRUTHER CULT POLITICAL DEFEATISM-BRAIN DEAD FLAT LINNING!!!!

    • Replies: @Paul C.
    , @NoseytheDuke
  385. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,

    Rurik to shame

    I don’t know if I ‘like you’ or not, but I suppose if I knew you, (and you weren’t trying to get me put in jail or fired or otherwise persecuted for my views), that maybe we’d be pals.

    Hehe, ya know Rurik, you strike me as a bit odd sometimes…

    So, this zionist prick threatens you but u still don’t know if u like him or not!??
    Weird, if you ask me.

    Ya know, I really don’t like zionists, period. But, in my corner of the woods( I’m not from zusa nor do I live there), I actually once met one who was a decent lad. Still a zio, but the most honest one I’ve ever met. He actually did concede points here & there!!!
    Always defended free speech too, and when we discussed the holohoax, we disagreed of course, but in an amicable manner… he even stood up for me when another zionist, this one the usual scumbag, threatened a lawsuit against me over my holohoax positions…
    But zionists like my friend come one in a million.
    Generally they are LIARS, scumbags and cowards.

    Cheers

    • Replies: @Rurik
  386. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Erebus

    Was 9/11 and American coup?
    The answer is no. There was no change in government.

    Not so fast, Can. The Deep State may well have changed.

    Invoking the Deep State amounts to saying that 9/11 was perpetrated by people who we cannot identify for reasons of which we are unaware. A useless theory.

    In fact, 9/11 was the new Pearl Harbor, the catalyzing event, hoped for by the PNAC crowd, including Jeb Bush and Dick Cheney, and the mostly Jewish NeoConservative intellectuals who, according the the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, “conceived” the Iraq war.

    So, no, 9/11 was nothing to do with the deep state, whatever that maybe (which no one seems to know), but an act that provided the Bush/Cheney White House the pretext for their already planned wars on Afghanistan and Iraq.

    The idea that 9/11 was carried out by Bin Laden with the support of the Government of Afghanistan to provide the US with a pretext for the conquest and occupation of Afghanistan is simply silly, although not too silly for most Americans to believe, apparently.

  387. @The Scalpel

    Damn it, the Ignore isn’t working. You must have non-printing satanist characters embedded in your ID. Wait … fixed it. Bye now.

    You guys crack me up. Pull up that girdle and fix your make-up, honey.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  388. Paul C. says:
    @War for Blair Mountain

    I’ve previously asked you why NIST did not release their scientific modeling revealing that WTC 7 was a “progressive collapse”. Why not let the scientific community review their analysis? Anyone with a functioning brain can see there was nothing progressive about the symmetrical collapse that occurred in 8 seconds. Steel skyscrapers don’t collapse from “normal office fires” which is what NIST concluded. If they did, why would we need demolition companies? Just light a few fires and you’re done. If steel structures can collapse so easily, shouldn’t they changes the building codes and use something stronger than steel? Have you tried to melt steel? How did that work out for you?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  389. @War for Blair Mountain

    If you believe in Judy Woods sewage about ET Death Rays taking down the TT….then you might as well believe in Brian Josephson’s telekinetic “physics” explanation as to how the big faker Uri Geller bent spoons with his mind

    Why bother, Blair? An obsession like the one these guys have can only get worse, not better. A few sensible, practical, evidence- and science-based responses SHOULD do the trick, but don’t. You cannot convince Truthers; it is impossible. I admit that I continue to be astounded by the pure inventiveness of each additional fragment of wackiness that is added, and the wide range of variation on the myth.

    Let them sizzle and fizzle. Not my problem; not your problem.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @Rurik
  390. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    Rurik, you strike me as a bit odd sometimes…

    yea, I’ve heard that before

    JR used to chide me as a modern day Will Rogers for acting like ‘I never met a man I didn’t like’, (which ironically was one of my dad’s favorite sentiments)

    I too know Zionists that I like, even tho we don’t agree. One of the guys on this site- Greasy Williams, sounds like the guy you’re talking about, who’s a Zionist, but who’s honest about it.

    I know all types of people.. and some are racists and some are religious nuts and some are crazy and some are just plain plain, ordinary, good people. That’s one of the charms of Unz, is that there is such a plethora of viewpoints and perspectives. But then I must agree with you, that those who do occasionally get under my skin are the dishonest ones. The agenda-driven shills who’re not here in good faith, but are rather here to obfuscate and disrupt.

    Sam at least comes here as a guy who’s Jewish and doesn’t try to hide the fact, (like a lot of others do ; ), and that is worth something. And he also provides interesting insights from a Jewish perspective, that I find interesting. I like to see and try to understand all perspectives, so long as they’re honest.

    But then Sam also has a proclivity towards intolerance I feel, like when I showed solidarity towards a genteel old German grandmother in her late eighties that was being put in prison for her views on the Holocaust. I find that kind of thing morally Orwellian and the kind of thing what we all been told about the notorious Nazis would do. It’s like the Nazis were not wrong on principle, but rather just that it was the German nationals who should be persecuted rather than the Jews, who should be treated as the master race. They didn’t repudiate tyranny and racism, they just reversed it. Anyways, Sam seemed to me to almost become unhinged at the idea that I would show solidarity towards this women and proclaim myself a “Holocaust “denier” too!’

    Remember that Sam? You wanted some harm to come to me, if I remember correctly.

    But anyways, this is fun, and I enjoy participating…

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @L.K
  391. CanSpeccy says: • Website

    Scott Adams, the Dilbert man, has an interesting post on hallucination as a response to cognitive dissonance.

    Basically, what he says is that when someone who thinks Geoge Dubya Bush was decent kind of conservative president — someone who’s hand they’d be proud to shake, is told that Bush, his brother Jeb and his VP, Cheney, were actually complicit in a conspiracy to massacre thousands of American citizens in New York on 9/11, they don’t engage in reason to assess the charge or consider a rebuttal, they simply hallucinate.

    Hallucination seems the best explanation of the comments of the defenders of the official 9/11 conspiracy theory. The “Truthers,” as they like to call those who question the official 9/11 story (presumably in tones dripping with contempt), are by implication, anti-Semites, people whose ‘“Science”[is] a complete flatlinning of the human brain,’ and people assumed to accept every one of even the most insane theories about 9/11, many of which may have been put in circulation by defenders of the official theory to discredit those who question the official theory.

    So there’s not much point in arguing with Fred, JJ, WFBM, etc. But perhaps their doctors could prescribe something to deal with the hallucinations.

  392. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Paul C.

    Why not let the scientific community review their [NIST's]analysis [of the collapse of WTC7]?

    In fact, an evaluation of the NIST analysis of the collapse of WTC7 is being undertaken by a group of academic scientists and engineers. Dr. Leroy Hulsey, Dean of Engineering at University of Alaska, Fairbanks, leads a group undertaking such an evaluation. So far, their research indicates that the possibility that WTC7 was brought down due to fire is “zero.”

  393. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    A few sensible, practical, evidence- and science-based responses SHOULD do the trick, but don’t.

    You mean like this “sensible, practical, evidence- and science-based response from engineering Professor Leroy Hulsey, whose year-long analysis (conducted with the full-time assistance of an engineering PHD and a PHD student) of the collapse of WTC7 excludes the possibility that the building collapsed due to fire?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  394. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I admit that I continue to be astounded by the pure inventiveness of each additional fragment of wackiness that is added

    me too!

    steel buildings that vaporize

    magic passports

    cave men thousands of miles away, using a laptop to shut down NORAD and SAC and the NSA

    wild conspiracy theories of planes shot out of the air and then huge cover-ups to hide that fact

    Mossad agents who fortuitously set up their cameras before the first plane hit

    so many coincidences, the head spins!

    not just one building vaporizing, but three! and the third one because of some office fires. Who knew that office fires could bring down steel skyscrapers!

    PUT options

    trillion$ missing

    pre-planned wars

    a “Patriot” Act already written and ready to go..

    and the amazing thing is it’s exactly what all the people in power were hoping for!

    isn’t that an amazing coincidence?

    “I continue to be astounded by the pure inventiveness of each additional fragment of wackiness”

    • Replies: @Stonehands
    , @Oldeguy
  395. Forget Loose Change, watch War by Deception. Ryan Dawson. Loose Shekels, what a joke. Phil, do some research dude.

  396. @CanSpeccy

    Dr. Leroy Hulsey, Dean of Engineering at University of Alaska, Fairbanks, leads a group undertaking such an evaluation.

    An academic? Gosh, where is the scorn for all the feelthy liberals in academia? The ones that corrupt our youth and create huge gobs of cultural marxism?

    If I were forming a review committee on the engineering aspects of building collapse from fire, there would be damn few academics on it.

    • Replies: @Kyle
  397. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    Hey Rurik,
    It would be good to down a pint or two!

    I confess to a problem, which is that I cannot stand animals that gratuitously insult humans. To those, I usually but not always, respond in kind. L.K. the reptile is high on that list.

    As reptiles go, my problem gets exacerbated when the specimen in question is stupider than the median of the population of reptiles, and in spite of their outward demonstrations of ‘humour’, as in the high frequency of vacuous ‘Hehee’s, remain in fact, entirely devoid of that gratifying human quality.

    The two avenues available in dealing with them, are, either to ignore them or squash them underfoot as reptiles often are.

    I haven’t quite decided if I need to tolerate every reptile in the woodwork in the name of free speech.

    So if we do get a beer together with Iffen, no reptiles in the invitation list please!

    • Replies: @L.K
  398. Paul C. says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Thanks for pointing that out. I did hear about that study but didn’t realize they were looking at NIST’s work, good to know. The overall point is the Blair Mountain guy is a fraud (w/ regard to 9/11, although he may have valid points in other areas such as immigration).

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  399. @CanSpeccy

    Why didn’t the floors above the airplane strike detonate per the demolition meme? They fell downward, intact. Same way, both towers, different number of stories above the airplane impact point for each.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  400. @Paul C.

    The overall point is the Blair Mountain guy is a fraud (w/ regard to 9/11, although he may have valid points in other areas such as immigration).

    That reminds me of the Amish adage “Everyone here is a little bit queer, except for me and thee. And thou art a little.”

    (All you eddicated Amurricans try to remember that “queer” does not really mean “homosexual”.)

    • Replies: @Kyle
  401. @War for Blair Mountain

    Speaking of spoonerism physics:nanotermite…..oops!!!…..I don’t want to give the “esteemed” Dr. Judy Woods any ideas….

  402. Sam Shama says:
    @Rurik

    [Remember that Sam? You wanted some harm to come to me, if I remember correctly.]

    I don’t think so Rurik. I was upset, but I certainly did not threaten you or call you names

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/#comment-1567671

    and

    http://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-the-cia-invented-conspiracy-theories/#comment-1565183

  403. Mulegino1 says:
    @Rurik

    I agree that we often get sidetracked, as you write, when considering the “how” of 9/11 as opposed to the “who”. But – if – as almost certainly appears to be the case from the easily observable evidence – very small nuclear weapons were used, then that goes a long way towards pointing to the “who”.

    The ideological Likudist PNAC people were the intellectual authors; the New York Zionist mafia (Silverstein et al) and the Bush Administration were the enablers (the former accessories before the fact, the latter probably before the fact and certainly after the fact), and Israeli operatives were the primary mechanics of the operation.

  404. @Mulegino1

    But – if – as almost certainly appears to be the case from the easily observable evidence – very small nuclear weapons were used, then that goes a long way towards pointing to the “who”.

    Ah, there’s Exhibit A for youse Truther nobs. I’m telling ya — a collection of pointy-headed gullible, credulous noodges is what you’ve got here.

    Mistah Mulegyno, do you perchance recall a scene in a movie, wherein the character of Merlin asks the crowd, “What else floats?” One of the answers from the assembled multitude was “Very small rocks.”

    That is instructive, methinks. So, I must ask you, just ezackly how small were the nuclear weapons — the dozens of nuclear weapons in Towers 1 and 2? Small enough to float?

    • Replies: @Mulegino1
  405. Leroy Hulsey’s finite element study=G.I.G.O…..Hulsey’s starting point is that it was a normal fire which it wasn’t….Hulsey’s should 1)submit his study for peer review publication in elite Mechanical Engineering Journals….if that fails…2)c0ntact several elite Engineering Departments in the US where he can give a presentation of his model…..Video the presentation, and put the full unedited video up on You Tube…

  406. republic says:
    @Miro23

    If the Old Republic was ever restored in the US, a South African style Truth and Reconciliation Commission would help solve some of the mysteries behind 9/11

  407. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Mulegino1

    but – if – as almost certainly appears to be the case from the easily observable evidence – very small nuclear weapons were used

    That’s utter rubbish.

    Where’s the obvious evidence, the spike in background radiation and the persistent radioactive contamination of of WTC dust?

    Either you’re a hallucinating anti-truther unable to contemplate the possibility of treason in the Bush White House, or you’re one of the 9/11 cover-up team, intent on encouraging people to make fools of themselves by adopting nonsensical hallucinatory theories about 9/11.

    • Replies: @mcohen
    , @Stonehands
    , @Mulegino1
  408. mcohen says:
    @CanSpeccy

    well said my friend .hard to tell the pea from the nut out here in the internet wilderness
    i have a confession to make.your nic.it is great….canspeccy…perfect.would you be interested in renting it out when you are not using it.spoke to rabbi and he said it was all kosher as long as i did not eat it.
    i did consider “cornybeef” but thought it was too risque. ….you know to close to hornybeef and such.might attract the hard leather crowd.i might do “hardyleather” but sounds to whippy cowboy……..

  409. @Rurik

    …And evidence immediately shipped to China and “recycled”.

  410. Mulegino1 says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    You are clearly unable to evaluate evidence.

    What other type of event – other than a nuclear detonation – causes the following types of effects?

    Mushroom cloud – virtually indistinguishable from that of an underground detonation of a tactical nuclear weapon.

    Fireball – readily visible in close up footage of the North Tower immediately prior to its “collapse”.

    Seismic event.

    Electromagnetic pulse. What else caused the metallic components of automobiles in the vicinity – not hit by any debris or close to any flames to burst into flames?

    Plenty of trace elements consistent with a nuclear detonation, including high levels of tritium.

    Self-fueling underground fires which burned FOR MONTHS after the events of 9/11, and which did not respond to any conventional firefighting methods.

    Temperatures hot enough to cause structural steel and concrete to undergo molecular dissociation and melt bedrock.

    Diseases prevalent among the first responders consistent with radiation poisoning, such as Leukemia and testicular cancer.

    Your official narrative of 19 Arab hijackers and jet fuel fires is so ridiculous that it can be deconstructed and dissected by a precocious fourth grader with a rudimentary knowledge of basic physics.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  411. Mulegino1 says:
    @CanSpeccy

    The obvious evidence is the numerous signature elements of a nuclear detonation, including a mushroom cloud, self-fueling underground fires, seismic events, temperatures hotter than the surface of the sun able to melt bedrock and disintegrate structural steel and concrete. Also, I was not aware that nano-thermite can create an electromagnetic pulse, which caused the metallic components of automobiles in the vicinity to burst into flames – even though they were not struck by any debris or close to any fires.

    Now, I await your explanation of how either jet fuel induced hydrocarbon based office fires caused the Twin Towers to “collapse” (of course, there was no “collapse”) or how nano-thermite was able to so far exceed its normal operating capacities by orders of magnitude.

  412. Kyle says:
    @AmericaFirstNow

    Bin Laden was living on a kidney dialisis machine before 9-11. You don’t miraculously recover from kidney failure.
    Bin Laden initially denies everything, like any suspect would, September 17th 2001.

    http://edition.cnn.com/2001/US/09/16/inv.binladen.denial/index.html?iref=storys

    Then AL Jazeera reports bin Ladens death in December 2001.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/2001/12/26/report-bin-laden-already-dead.html

    Then a whole bunch of videos featuring someone that doesn’t really look like bin laden, claiming to be bin laden, appear on line over the years claiming responsibility for 9-11 and egging America on into conflict with the Muslim world.
    We invade and occupy Afghanistan , then iraq. 9-11 conspiracy wing nuts claim that the Pakistan intelligence agency is harboring bin laden, but we never invade pakistan.
    Then in 2012 our intelligence finds out that pakistan had been harboring bin laden. We send in seal team six. They break into his compound, kick in his bedroom door and light him up in a blaze of glory. They extract the body, bring it too the helicopter, and then on the helicopter ride back they dump the body into the ocean.
    Case closed, nothing to see here, carry on.
    Yes loose change is complete trash. The building demolition angle is complete trash. It is feasible that a plane crash plus fire could weaken the structure and lead to collapse. It is unprecedented on the history of modern architectite, but it is feasible, so the demolition angle is trash.
    The real question of 9-11 is who knew what, and when did they know it.

    • Replies: @mcohen
  413. Kyle says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    It didn’t until Tolkien made it an uncomfortably homosexual-esque word.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  414. Kyle says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Of course. It’s completely unprecedented. The only three *steel frame buildings to ever collapse due fire are wtc 1,2, & 7.
    The investigations started with their results (collapsed buildings), and worked backwards towards proving causation (plane crash + material fires knocking off fireproofing and weakening steel).
    The results are that it is feasible that a plane crash + fire could cause the collapse. Neatly in on itself, for the first time in history, in under an hour, falling fast enough to make it seem like the bottom floors which didn’t have their steel fireproof in knocked off and we’re not weakened by fire, falling fast enough to make it seem like those floors provided hardly any resistance. This isninpr3cedented, but not imfeasible.

    There are no experts on WTC collapses due to fire.

  415. @Kyle

    It didn’t until Tolkien made it an uncomfortably homosexual-esque word.

    I see. Not having read Tolkien, I didn’t know that.

  416. @Kyle

    That’s just another way of saying that if the NIST and various studies of the collapse by elite engineering departments doesn’t give the 9/11 Truther “Divinely Inspired” version of the “scientific truth” about the collapse of the TT and building 7….then the NIST and the MIT Engineering Department are guilty of HERESY!!!!……..you freaking tard….

  417. mcohen says:
    @Kyle

    i read somewhere that a whole bunch of kidney dialysis machines were deliberately sabotaged in the hope that obl would use one.
    another side note to conspiracy theory central

    http://www.snopes.com/rumors/kidney.asp

  418. @Kyle

    There are no experts on WTC collapses due to fire.

    It took the 2nd tower, in time elapsed, 12 minutes longer to collapse than the first. That is a good correlation to the nature of the fires having similar effect on similar buildings.

    The calculations of heat released are given on Truther websites as required to heat concrete and steel to melting points. This is not the case. Steel melts at 2500 degrees Fahrenheit, but it loses all structural strength at 1000 degrees Fahrenheit. Further, the load-bearing tie beams in the WTC were steel. When those bonds failed, the condition of the concrete floor is irrelevant. Each aircraft was carrying approximately 60 tons of aviation-grade kerosene — much more than sufficient to soften the bonds on the tie-beams.

    The entire Truther myth of fire and steel, and electromagnetic pulse, and synchronized demolition, and seekrut installations and electronic controls … bla bla bla … absolute balderdash. The fuel was sufficient for the job, and by principle of parsimony it is thus correctly attributed.

    Now, that being said, were there people in on the plan? Seems reasonable to me. Were they Israelis? Again, cui bono the most? Israel. Would Israel let it happen without warning the US? Without question, they would. Did Bush or Clinton know? Ask them.

  419. MarkinLA says:
    @CanSpeccy

    “If I was you” I’d learn the difference between the past tense and the conditional tense. But that’s just me.

    I was using your stupid characterization that showed you don’t know anything about physics. This issue isn’t about just physics. It is also about the construction techniques of tall buildings and how they are compromised – something unknown to somebody “who studies physics”.

    If 99% of the matter was ejected sideways from the building then it wouldn’t look like a controlled demolition now would it?

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  420. MarkinLA says:
    @Miro23

    Maybe you aren’t getting it but controlled demolitions are the result of gravity and not the explosive – the same as the tower collapse. So, of course, they look similar.

  421. MarkinLA says:
    @CanSpeccy

    So you weighed the amount of material ejected and the amount still within the building perimeter?

    No you didn’t and that picture means nothing. There are plenty of solid elements like steel supports in the floor simliar to the floor joists in your house. I doubt they were ejected sideways.

    This building is designed so that the main superstructure supports the weight of the building and each floor is somewhat independent and carries none of the load of the floors above. The floor can be easily sheared off from the superstructure since the supports were probably only designed to carry a load equal to 3 times the weight of the floor.

  422. Building 7 collapse time….5.4 seconds…..NIST Scientists….you all know the NIST..right?….without the NIST fundamental research, modern technology would not exist…That’s why the recent Noble Prize was awarded to several NIST researchers…..The NIST specializes in fundamental scientific measurement….

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
  423. @MarkinLA

    MarkLA

    Since I think you are a working Engineer….

    9/11 Truthers are known to routinely call Engineering Companies in NYC to engage Engineers with masters degrees-PHDs in debate about the collapse of TT and Building 7. The office intercom is turned on to begin the entertainment…the 9/11 Truther fires of his questions and Divenly Inspired interpretation of Newton’s Third Law…..only to have them patiently and “lovingly” obliterated into dust….9/11 Truther hangs up….

  424. L.K says:
    @Sam Shama

    shama goes : ‘gratuitously insult humans’

    Your not a human, shammy boy, you are a vile zionist scumbag & a proven serial liar!

    Plus, it ain’t an insult if it is true. All I’ve said about you is true.

    There is a big difference.

  425. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1

    Most of their components would have been shredded to pieces upon impact with the Twin Towers, and fallen to the street below the point of impact.

    This is a really stupid comment that shows someone who knows nothing about physics and is even willing to pretend what he saw with his own eyes isn’t real.

    A plane flew into a building and almost all of it ended inside the building. The kinetic energy of that plane as well as the energy released by the fire remained inside the building. THAT IS A FACT.

  426. Mulegino1 says:
    @MarkinLA

    Yes. I also know that it would not cause molecular dissociation in the structural steel and concrete core, and would not cause the longest burning (underground and self fueled) structural fires in history. Also, detonations of tnt (or jet fuel) are not known to cause electromagnetic pulses, i.e., they are not known to burn the metallic components of vehicles (while leaving their non-metallic components untouched).

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  427. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Rurik:

    JR used to chide me as a modern day Will Rogers for acting like ‘I never met a man I didn’t like’

    Yeah, and I had a big laugh at that! :-)
    He is not wrong you know, though I did see you get quite vicious with Rehmat recently. Now, Rehmat is sometimes annoying and does engage in some double standarts, makes things up occasionally, etc. However, I find it strange that you can be nice to shama and forgive his obvious dishonest behaviour, tribal behaviour btw, while getting so angry at Rehmat.
    Is it bc Rehmat is a paki and brown while you see an asshole like shamaa as white and part of the West? Bc you got Jews in your family(as u have said)?? Problem is Rurik, it ain’t the Rehmats of this world who run the fed, control media and culture, cook up stuff like multicul, work through their lobbies to change immigration laws, etc. It’s lads from shama’s tribe.

    Rurik:

    Greasy Williams, sounds like the guy you’re talking about, who’s a Zionist, but who’s honest about it.

    Haha, I remember greasy! The guy who said Cintia Dicker was the plainest girl he ever saw, not even a 5 or something! “Funny” guy. Well, no, my zio friend strives to be a decent human being which takes quite a bit of sef-deception and contortionism. Greasy was honest indeed, honest about what a degenerate he is. Still much better than these dissimulated assholes like shama.

    Rurik:

    Sam at least comes here as a guy who’s Jewish and doesn’t try to hide the fact, (like a lot of others do ; ), and that is worth something.

    I see no worth in that and he is one of the ‘The agenda-driven shills who’re not here in good faith, but are rather here to obfuscate and disrupt” , which you must have obviously noticed.
    Re shama’s attitudes about your position on that ‘genteel old German grandmother’ bc of her holo views, that should tell you all ya need to know about the guy. Yet, for whatever reasons, you always cut him some slack.
    Enough words wasted on this zionist insect.
    Take care

    • Replies: @Rurik
  428. Mulegino1 says:
    @MarkinLA

    Yes. I also know that it would not cause molecular dissociation in the structural steel and concrete core, and would not cause the longest burning (underground and self fueled) structural fires in history. Also, detonations of tnt (or jet fuel) are not known to cause electromagnetic pulses, i.e., they are not known to burn the metallic components of vehicles (while leaving their non-metallic components untouched).

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  429. Mulegino1 says:
    @MarkinLA

    You obviously don’t know anything about ballistics, or you would not have ventured to make a foolish statement like this. A hollow, ductile, mostly thin skinned aluminum tube (a commercial airliner fuselage) is not going to penetrate 1/2″ of structural steel or concrete floor pans. Let’s take an armor piercing round by comparison, say a 7.62 by 54r.

    The armor piercing round has a hardened alloy tip, an alloy jacket, and a solid steel core. That would be sufficient to penetrate the 1/2″ of structural steel of the perimeter columns of the WTC (we won’t even consider the much thicker steel spandrels).

    The nose and fuselage of a commercial airliner (in the case of 9/11, a Boeing 767) are extremely fragile, hollow aluminum and fiberglass, liable to be damaged (or even penetrated) by birds in flight at cruising speed. They would have been shredded to bits upon contact with the perimeter columns.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
    , @MarkinLA
  430. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @MarkinLA

    “If I was you” I’d learn the difference between the past tense and the conditional tense. But that’s just me.

    I was using your stupid characterization that showed you don’t know anything about physics.

    I was using your stupid characterization (of the collapse of the Twin Towers) that showed you don’t know nuthin’, nohow ’bout neither grammar nor physics.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  431. I appreciated how Carlton Meyer detonated the comment proliferation to this article by calling attention to James Files & JFK’s murder and also provided fascinating You Tube videos.

    As it looks like this comment-chain might extend to the 53rd anniversary of the Evil day in Dallas, I thought it will be useful for people to read Christopher Bollyn’s article (below) and learn how he exacted controlled demolition upon both the Warren Commission Report and W. Bush’s 9-11 Commission Report.

    http://www.bollyn.com/political-assassinations/#article_14588

    I wish James Files had internet service where he’s at and offer comment here! ‘Cause things are getting a bit fuzzy now while America’s trapped somewhere in-between Zapruder 312-313 and Silverstein’s WTC-7 frames.

  432. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Mulegino1

    Yes. I also know that it would not cause molecular dissociation in the structural steel and concrete core, and would not cause the longest burning (underground and self fueled) structural fires in history. Also, detonations of tnt (or jet fuel) are not known to cause electromagnetic pulses, i.e., they are not known to burn the metallic components of vehicles (while leaving their non-metallic components untouched).

    The Anti-Truthers are big on science, but they rarely, if ever, state any evidence in support of their claims, or provide a reference to a source of evidence.

    We know the Twin Towers were destroyed in a cloud of dust but a cloud of “dissociated” steel and concrete molecules?

    An iron atom has a diameter of 140 pm, but the majority of WTC dust particles were hundreds of thousands of times larger at 53 microns plus.

    As for burnt “metallic components of vehicles” with “non-metallic components untouched”, it takes only a google search to prove that claim false. For example, in this picture of a car at the WTC, you can see that only the metal frames of the seats remain.

    Concerning the longest burning self-fueled fire in history, some history to back up that claim would have been a good idea.

  433. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Mulegino1

    You obviously don’t know anything about ballistics, or you would not have ventured to make a foolish statement like this. A hollow, ductile, mostly thin skinned aluminum tube (a commercial airliner fuselage) is not going to penetrate 1/2″ of structural steel or concrete floor pans. Let’s take an armor piercing round by comparison, say a 7.62 by 54r.

    You appear to be wrong.

    Look at the impact of El Al Flight 1862, a Boeing 747 cargo aircraft, on the Groeneveen and Klein-Kruitberg flats in the Bijlmermeer neighbourhood of Amsterdam, the Netherlands on October 4, 1992.

    The plane, which was attempting to land, and was, therefore, probably travelling at no more than around 100 knots, went right through the building killing over 40 apartment occupants as well as all those on board the plane.

    So what would have stopped UA Flight 175 and AA Flight 77, both traveling at four or five hundred knots from going right through one of the Twin Towers?

    Is it too much to ask that future contributors to this thread check some of their facts before ridiculing all and sundry for not believing something that is more or less obviously false?

  434. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1

    You obviously don’t know anything about ballistics, let alone physics, if you ignore the velocity and the mass.

    So you actually believe that no part of the aircraft entered the building?

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  435. MarkinLA says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Well since I obviously know more about physics than you do, what does that say about you?

  436. @MarkinLA

    Most of their components would have been shredded to pieces upon impact with the Twin Towers, and fallen to the street below the point of impact.

    This is a really stupid comment that shows someone who knows nothing about physics and is even willing to pretend what he saw with his own eyes isn’t real.

    Yeah, that sort of statement tends to leave one dumbfounded. A live-TV presentation clearly showed the airplane penetrating the building — in the second case all the way through to the other side.

    But, no, didn’t happen. Denied! The airplane splatted like a paintball, as it should. Never mind mass x velocity/2 — nope, that’s all wrong.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  437. MarkinLA says:
    @Mulegino1

    You don’t seem to get it. If the smallest explosion possible with a nuclear device produces the equivalent of 10 tons of TNT at one point then you would have such an explosion someplace in the building. Such an explosion would easily cut the building in half and shower all the surrounding areas with the debris. it would look nothing like a controlled demolition.

  438. L.K says:
    @Miro23

    More people should have paid attention to your post, Miro.
    The zionists have a long and proven history of using terrorism, including False Flag terrorism.
    What is amazing is how many of the terrorists who took part in the assassination of the United Nations Security Council mediator in the Arab–Israeli conflict of 1947–1948, Count F.Bernadotte, or the bombing of the King David Hotel against the Brits, later became israeli Prime Ministers and Presidents, folks like Israel Yitzhak Shamir and Menachem Begin, and totally got away with it.

    http://www.ifamericansknew.org/history/realstory.html

    by Alison Weir

    “When the buy-out effort was able to obtain only a few percent of the land, Zionists created a number of terrorist groups to fight against both the Palestinians and the British. Terrorist and future Israeli Prime Minister Menachem Begin later bragged that Zionists had brought terrorism both to the Middle East and to the world at large.

  439. @MarkinLA

    A bug splattering against the windshield of a moving car imparts all of its kinetic energy to the car, no?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  440. L.K says:
    @Miro23

    http://www.bollyn.com/solving-9-11-the-book#article_11279

    Chapter III
    America the Target: 9-11 and Israel’s History of False Flag Terrorism
    PREVIOUS ISRAELI ATTACKS ON U.S. TARGETS

    Eight years after the bombing of the King David Hotel, the State of Israel carried out a series of false-flag terror bombings against U.S. and British libraries, theatres, and other government institutions in Egypt in a terror campaign designed to be blamed on Egyptian groups. This Israeli terror campaign of July 1954 is often referred to as the “Lavon Affair” after Pinhas Lavon, the Israeli defense minister at the time.

    In June 1967, thirteen years after the Lavon Affair, the Israeli air force and navy deliberately strafed, bombed, napalmed, and torpedoed an unarmed U.S. vessel, the USS Liberty, and tried to kill all of the nearly three hundred crew members, simply to achieve a strategic war-time goal. Recently released documents from the National Security Agency (NSA) confirm that the United States government at the time had evidence that the Israelis had deliberately attacked the USS Liberty knowing it was a U.S. vessel.

    COVER-UP

    The U.S. government, military, and media all went along with the cover-up of the deliberate attack on the USS Liberty to avoid blaming Israel for the murder of 34 American servicemen, 26 of whom died from the torpedo blast, and the wounding of some 173 others. Shimon Peres, the Israeli president, certainly knows who made the decision to attack the U.S. vessel in 1967.

    In the case of 9-11, one of the differences is not only that the US government covered it up, but that there were certainly some US officials, traitors, who worked with the zionists to get the job done.

  441. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    Speaking of Nazi propaganda, we are forever hearing about how that peace-loving Hitler was “forced” into war.

    In late August 1936, he wrote a lengthy secret memo concerning the future direction of economic policy. It adopted the essentials of Göring’s position and concluded with a pair of unambiguous commands: “1. The German army must be capable of being deployed in four years. 2. The German economy must be capable of waging war in four years.”

    Oh wait! I am sure he was talking about a “defensive war.” Wink. Wink.

    Such a smart man, he knew Russia would not attack in 1 year, not 2 years, not 3 years, but in exactly 4 years. How did he know so much about the future?

  442. iffen says:
    @RaceRealist88

    Are you willing to put some sort of time limit on this Israeli expansion, because if it doesn’t happen your entire castle crumbles?

  443. L.K says:

    Wally made many good points in his post .4 and recommended a 9/11 documentary that he liked.

    I have not seen the one he linked to, but to me, “September 11 – The New Pearl Harbor”, is the best I have seen to date. Not enough good things can be said about it. The 3 DVDs have been made available for free on the net @

    http://www.luogocomune.net/site/modules/sections/index.php?op=viewarticle&artid=167

    The great thing is also that you go there & choose a specific topic & just move to that segment of the docu. Say: PART 2 – THE HIJACKERS
    0.57:15 – “Piss-poor student pilots”
    0.59:38 – Marwan al-Sheikki (UA175)
    1.01:52 – Ziad Jarrah (UA93)
    1.03:06 – Hani Hanjour (AA77)

    The so called 9-11 “debunkers” positions, both from the US and Europe, are also considered( and destroyed). :-)
    Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth (AE911Truth) have reviewed it:

    “So what makes this one so special? For me, there are three key points to be highlighted.
    The first is the quality of the presentation. Many documentaries address this complex subject, but fail to achieve a level of professionalism. In contrast, Mazzucco’s production has the sort of quality that one might see on television or in the mainstream media.
    The second is the enormous depth and quality of the research that has gone into the production. Mazzucco has let out all the stops, has explored most of the angles, and provides a wealth of information. A lot of the information in the film was obtained through the efforts of various researchers in the 9/11 Truth Movement via Freedom Of Information Act (FOIA) requests. Key facets of the controversial issues surrounding 9/11 are presented meticulously and fairly.
    The third is Mazzucco’s adherence to the principles of logic and science.”

  444. @War for Blair Mountain

    I’ve read your posts over a lengthy period and have seen that they are worthless and that you are a one-note orchestra. We cannot ever revisit and change 1965, try to let it sink in.

    The greatest disrespect one can ever show the victims of 9/11 is to deny them a proper investigation into the who, how and why they died. Thus far they have been denied that and your level of disrespect for them is colossal, you should be ashamed.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  445. @John Jeremiah Smith

    There are quite a few videos online where anyone with eyes can see the series of explosions travelling down the floors of the buildings but the ones shown in the MSM are carefully screened to exclude them. A curious and intelligent mind would want to see them and would seek them out, it’s very easy to do online.

    Nobody has posted more often than you on this thread and just about all of your posts show great disrespect to the victims of 9/11 by wanting to deny them a proper investigation into the who, how and why they died. Your agenda is quite clear and is shameful.

  446. @NoseytheDuke

    The greatest disrespect one can ever show the victims of 9/11 is to deny them a proper investigation into the who, how and why they died. Thus far they have been denied that and your level of disrespect for them is colossal, you should be ashamed.

    Bwahahahahaha!!!!
    You do mendacious humility so well. Missed your calling, bubbelah.

  447. @MarkinLA

    That’s a very old bomb, no?

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  448. @NoseytheDuke

    Virtually all of his posts include personal insults as well. I can understand disagreeing strongly with this or that viewpoint on this issue, but the seething rage exhibited by defenders of the official position strongly suggests some kind of dishonesty.

    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  449. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Why did the government destroy the evidence b4 it could be examined?

    Shlomo, you really are a troll!!!

    Everybody on these boards now knows…and all together with a resounding….Bye now, POS!

  450. @John Jeremiah Smith

    What’s mass * velocity / 2? Are you confusing kinetic energy with momentum?

  451. @NoseytheDuke

    Nobody has posted more often than you on this thread and just about all of your posts show great disrespect to the victims of 9/11 by wanting to deny them a proper investigation into the who, how and why they died. Your agenda is quite clear and is shameful.

    A proper investigation of who, how, and why they died has been done. Respect is not achieved by investigation, respect is achieved through recognition and remembrance. You wish to promote a false, artificial, pharisaic definition of “respect”, motivated by your purely personal desire to find “conspiracy”. Have you no shame?

    • Replies: @Miro23
  452. @War for Blair Mountain

    You’re another phony- I’ll ask you this one more time:

    Why’d they ship the evidence to CHINA, so fast? That steel should be stored in hangars just like TWA 800, forever.

  453. Momentum is always conserved in a collision. Kinetic energy is only conserved in an elastic collision. In inelastic collisions, kinetic energy is lost due to deformation of the colliding objects (heat transfer, etc.) . In the case of the planes and the towers, which object do you think will be more affected?

  454. @MarkinLA

    Velocity and mass of the plane are not relevant, what matters is the distribution of the heat generated by the collision, and how it affects the respective colliding objects. You have not specified how this distribution took place, not surprising as it’s a very difficult question (which is why it’s generally easier to analyze collisions in terms of momentum, not energy). You seem to assume that the buildings bore the brunt of this distribution, but this is not obvious, to put it mildly.

    • Replies: @MarkinLA
  455. Every discussion on 9/11 results in us fighting about how the towers fell and the small matter of who the perpetrators were falls to the wayside. All it needs is one or more trolls to poke at the embers and it starts a fire. After 15 years, one would think that we would recognize the same pattern of distraction from the same quarters and either ignore it or shut it down.

    It is neither important (at this stage) nor required for us to come up with the physics of how the towers fell and go into the weeds about nano-thermites or micro-nukes. Once we have the perpetrators, we can determine how they did it. It doesn’t really matter what our pet theories about how it all happened, and I don’t know why people feel they have to derail the discussion into a fight about who understands physics better, but that seems to happen without fail on every respectable site when the topic of 9/11 comes up. There is no way to prove any of these theories, except with a confession from the guilty parties. Our only possible strategy is to prove that they lied, and force an arrest and investigations. As someone said in a previous post, a crime was committed, and the chief suspects have a story to divert attention from themselves.

    No, all that is required of us is to challenge the government’s conspiracy theory and force them to prove it or admit that they lied. Then, a real investigation can begin and the guillotines carted out.
    The people who have a lot to lose know this, so their strategy is to obfuscate the facts and force us to go into futile arguments about how it all happened. How about we don’t feed the trolls?

    The government has already told us how it happened. We just need to show that what they told us is a lie. Let’s focus on that. Let’s leave the means and physics of what actually happened to the subsequent investigations, as that is an exercise in futility and we are sure to lose.

  456. @Cloak And Dagger

    That’s pathetic. The government has it covered coming and going. Done and done.

  457. @Cloak And Dagger

    Oh, I forgot. The other distraction is the Nihilistic approach of telling us that all our attempts are pathetic and futile and we should just give up and go home. Don’t fall into that trap either and get drawn into a pointless argument.

  458. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:

    The Russians are deeply involved.

  459. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @War for Blair Mountain

    WFBM, you should change your handle to Name Dropper. The way you constantly say NIST is like the fool at a party who, in a pathetic attempt to sound knowledgeabe, repeatedly drops important names when, in fact, he knows them little, if at all.

    Please quote the NIST. Your assertion that NIST said this or that is simply heresay, and furthermore, the false statements you have already made (and I pointed out), make me think you are a fool (not a liar)

    So please quote NIST and do not keep battering us with your ignorant misunderstanding of their findings

  460. Miro23 says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    A proper investigation of who, how, and why they died has been done.

    No it hasn’t. That’s the whole point. A rather corrupt US government said that three modern high rise buildings of 20+ stories had total collapses due to fire on 9/11 – which is very strange.

    So this is something to look at very carefully in a real murder investigation, and how their deceptive, delayed, underfunded and obstructed “9/11 Commission Report” didn’t even mention the third building (WTC7).

    The basic fact is that 9/11 was a Coup against US Democracy and the planners never anticipated any investigation since they were fully expecting to control the future narrative. It ‘s the failure of their coup that accounts for the present mess, as they now do everything in their power to obscure, blank out, redirect and ridicule anything that contradicts their Arab conspiracy story.

    The pain is only being dragged out because they still hold so much power. Witness their fierce attacks on CIA and FBI operatives who won’t keep quiet, although the persecution seems to be blowing back. For example, ex-CIA agent Susan Lindauer (imprisoned for 5 years for revealing part of the deception) getting 2 million+ views of her YouTube video “Extreme Prejudice”

    or ex-FBI employee Sibel Edmonds getting widespread readership for her self-published memoir showing FBI complicity. https://www.amazon.com/Classified-Woman-Sibel-Edmonds-Story/dp/0615602223/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1477635322&sr=8-1&keywords=classified+woman%2C+sibel+edmonds

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  461. @iffen

    I know a guy who is totally into conspiracy theories (including the theory of reptilian rule), and he’s #refugeeswelcome as well as philo-Semitic. On the other hand, while I don’t know outright Nazi sympathizers, I know a few people who are broadly sympathetic to Nazism (like “however bad the Nazis were for oppressing the Slavs, the world would be a better place, had they won”), and most of them are not much into 911 truther conspiracies or similar theories.

    Another problem with the theory is that there’s little evidence that the Reichstag fire was really the work of the Nazis themselves, so now many historians think (according to Ian Kershaw it’s the majority) that it was actually the work of the lone pyromaniac van der Lubbe.

    The Reichstag fire is a good illustration of how opportunities arise for politicians who can then ruthlessly grab the opportunity created by an external event and push for their agenda (which they’d have pushed for anyway, but would’ve been more difficult without help from the event).

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @SolontoCroesus
  462. @Rurik

    Though I have always been and still am firmly opposed to the idiotic and evil US meddling and invasions in the Middle East, let’s just assume for simplicity’s sake that I’m a paid hasbara troll or something.

    Now, what is your argument against what I wrote in this comment:

    229. reiner Tor says:
    October 26, 2016 at 9:58 am GMT • 100 Words

    It would be nice to hear some arguments from you instead of simple name calling.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  463. @iffen

    To be honest, while obviously Hitler wanted war (mostly a series of smaller wars against one adversary at a time each), this is not a very good argument. He couldn’t have written to Göring “1. The German army must be capable of being deployed tomorrow 2. The German economy must be capable of waging war tomorrow”.

    When my boss identifies an immediate risk (“this could happen anytime, even tomorrow!”), and he recognizes the risk cannot be eliminated immediately (either because it’s physically impossible or because of prohibitive costs), he usually gives us a deadline or timeline how to reduce or eliminate it (“do this by the beginning of next month”, “start working on it immediately and if good opportunity arises, try to go faster, but even if it doesn’t, please reach the target by XX.XX.XXXX”).

    Obviously Hitler needed to give a deadline even if he thought the risk was immediate, and his economic team (led by Göring) proposed four years, which he accepted. What else could he do, even if he thought the risk was immediate? Besides, the risk obviously wasn’t immediate, but he couldn’t have known when and how it would arise.

    The timeline of real historical events also shows that while he wanted to be prepared for war by 1940, war actually started a year earlier. German documents show that German military and economic leaders thought the country would be ready for war by 1942 at the earliest (meaning the four-year timeline was already unrealistic), so the war starting already in 1939 doesn’t make the Four-Year Plan a good argument.

  464. @The Scalpel

    If mentioning the NIST is a form of name dropping….I’ll be happy to do it again:THE NIST….Building 7 collapse time 5.4 seconds. On the INTERNET the NIST goes into great detail how they calculated the collapse time.

    The 9/11 Truther Scientistd have yet to publish a scientific paper in an elite peer reviewed Mechanics Journal….Chemistry Journal……Spectroscopy Journal. The have failed the Scientific acid test.

    To state the very obvious:Dr. Judy Wood is either a full blown psychotic delusional…..or a sociopath with a very nasty agenda.

    Of course Native Born White Americans can go back to 1965….who gave Chinese and Muslim Nationals and their US born geneline to right to enthusiastically vote the Historic American Nation into a violently persecuted racial minority? The revolt starts with a consent not to be governed by the Old Farting Adult Diaper Wearing Lesbian.

    9/11 was completely avoided….so was the Fort Hood massacre.

  465. @John Jeremiah Smith

    “NIST’s explanation is pure hell to disprove.” No, it is easy to disprove — as I suspect you know. Dr. David Ray Griffin did so meticulously, exhaustively, and devastatingly in his 328-page book, “The Mysterious Collapse of World Trade Center 7: Why the Final Official Report about 9/11 is Unscientific and False.” I’m glad he wrote it, but it was probably unnecessary, since anyone can see with his own eyes by watching the video of the collapse of Building 7 that it was obviously brought down in a classic controlled demolition with explosives; there is simply no other possible rational explanation. Incidentally, it is most curious that commenters like “John Jeremiah Smith” spend so much time and effort posting here in an attempt to debunk the claims of the Truth Movement — claims that they purport to view as complete nonsense. Note that if it were not for “Smith’s” posts and those by “War for Blair Mountain” and one or two others, the number of posts by truthers would far surpass those by deniers, and I suspect that is one of the reasons the latter are here. See “Cognitive Infiltration” by David Ray Griffin.

  466. @reiner Tor

    Hitler wanted a revision of the injustice of Versailles, obviously, but certainly not a major war with Britain. His hand was forced by the aggressive intentions of the Soviets, but even here there is no evidence that conquest (“Lebensraum”) played a role in the decision. At a minimum, the Germans were no more warlike than the countries they confronted, and probably on balance less so.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  467. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    and most of them are not much into 911 truther conspiracies or similar theories

    One commonality for dedicated Nazis and regular conspiracy theorists is the paranoid type thinking that tells them that reality is organized by some group for the benefit of that group to the detriment of the whole. All events must have dots that can be connected, it is just a matter of connecting them. They are extremely distrustful and are constantly in fear of being “out of the loop,” “not in the know.” They are horrified by the idea that there might be someone “smarter” than they are; that someone or some group is pulling the wool over eyes. You can see it in the comment section here, with the accusations of crypto-Jew, hasbara, troll, etc.

    So, I was having a little fun with my comment, but I do think that people who are inclined to believe in false flags find many more than those who are skeptical.

    I agree with you, I think van der Lubbe was the culprit, Goring was just trying to enhance his own standing after the fact.

  468. @iffen

    To be honest, it’s difficult to be a true 1488 type if you do acknowledge that the holocaust (and the mass murder of millions of Slavs etc.) did indeed happen. (If you do so, you’ll have to acknowledge that Hitler wasn’t, at least, very good. You can still argue he was the lesser of two or more evils.)

    Therefore, most (all?) 1488 types are probably implicitly or explicitly holocaust deniers, which is just another conspiracy theory, since it needs a highly coordinated effort on the parts of thousands or tens of thousands of historians and thousands or tens of thousands of others.

  469. iffen says:
    @reiner Tor

    this is not a very good argument

    Obviously, again, just having a little fun with the ones who think Hitler was the 1st incarnation of Gandhi.

    At the risk of cranking up the interminable Russia/Germany was at fault thread, my opinion is that Stalin “knew” that Hitler was going to attack and was making preparations to be ready. Hitler either thought Stalin was going to go on the offensive, or that he shouldn’t wait longer to allow the Soviet build-up to continue, he calculated that the best worst option was to attack Russia, even before full German logistical power was in place.

    People who say that Hitler did not plan to conquer the Slavic lands and remove the people are either ignorant or willfully duplicitous. He very clearly stated over and again from the early 20’s two essential tenets; remove the Jews from Germany and fulfill and implement Lebensraum.

  470. @Beefcake the Mighty

    Hitler most certainly didn’t want a major war with Britain. It’s more likely he did indeed want a major war with France, and it’s an almost certainty he did want one with Soviet Russia.

    His war with the USSR proved to be a combination of two factors, a preventive war and a war of conquest. He needed to prevent Stalin from attacking him sometime in the future – there’s no evidence Stalin planned to attack him in 1941 before he learned of the German buildup, and the Soviet buildup in that year only started after the German buildup. So it was no pre-emptive war, but it was a preventive one, since it was basically sure that the Soviets would attack sometime later, maybe in 1942 or 1943.

    That it was an ideological war of conquest needs no explanation. In the later stages, at the latest by 1944 it also became a fight for independence for Germany, which they also lost.

    For the Soviets, it was a patriotic war, but later on it also became a war of ideological conquest by 1944 at the latest. Actually, the two motives are difficult to disentangle from each other even early on in the conflict, since the Soviets already in 1941 insisted that the British recognize their Western borders (including the Baltic states and Eastern Poland etc.), and of course they were thinking of what they’d do if they managed to defeat the Germans.

    • Agree: iffen
  471. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Miro23

    A proper investigation of who, how, and why they died has been done.

    No it hasn’t. That’s the whole point. A rather corrupt US government said that three modern high rise buildings of 20+ stories had total collapses due to fire on 9/11 – which is very strange.

    Yes, it has. There was nothing “strange” about it. Planes fueled with a combined 240,000 pounds of hi-test kerosene crashed into the buildings. The heat caused metal to soften, and the building came down. Demonstrable and verifiable. Get that through your head.

    Now, the fact being the US government was corrupt at the time, and moreso now (if such is possible) is a separate issue. It is possible that criminal elements in the US government (if there be any elements in the US government that are not criminal is conceivable, but irrelevant), in collusion with Israel and other governments inimical to the people of the USA, conspired to implement the attacks on 9/11. That is entirely possible, and, in my humble opinion, has some significant degree of likelihood.

    If you wish to figure out some way to bring the US, Israeli, and other governments to account for some set of provable corruption, by all means, proceed. But utter ridiculous nonsense, such as “dozens of mini-nuclear bombs” destroyed the WTC — please, for gods sake, you must divest your movement of such silliness.

  472. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    Are all of you aware that WWII ended 71 years ago? All the “blameables” are dead.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @jacques sheete
  473. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Are all of you aware that WWII ended 71 years ago? All the “blameables” are dead.

    “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”
    W. Faulkner

  474. @John Jeremiah Smith

    WTC7 was not hit by any plane, so could not have suffered any such structural damage or fires from jet fuel. Yet, it fell at free fall acceleration, which is why NIST explicitly rejected the “pancake” theory (which nonetheless still invoked in some mainstream accounts) of floors successively slamming onto one another. So, how can its fate be explained the same way as the towers?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  475. @iffen

    And where there’s smoke, there’s usually fire.

    • Replies: @iffen
  476. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Did you read my actual comment, all the way through?

    The chasing after evidence of demolition charges is a blind alley. The only viable avenue of attack is, as I stated above: “It is possible that criminal elements in the US government (if there be any elements in the US government that are not criminal is conceivable, but irrelevant), in collusion with Israel and other governments inimical to the people of the USA, conspired to implement the attacks on 9/11. If you wish to figure out some way to bring the US, Israeli, and other governments to account for some set of provable corruption, by all means, proceed. “

  477. iffen says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    And where there’s smoke, there’s usually fire.

    At least in parliament buildings.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  478. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    Are all of you aware that WWII ended 71 years ago? All the “blameables” are dead.

    “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.” — W. Faulkner”

    Oh, yes it is dead, fixed in time, fixed in permanence.

    Now, the representation of the past is constantly being resurrected and re-characterized, sure. May I call your attention to the fact that every incidence of “past-resurrection and re-characterization” is used to start wars, or to persecute some group of people, or to take money under false pretenses?

    Let’s leave the past alone.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @jacques sheete
  479. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Let’s leave the past alone.

    No Sir!

    You are not going to launch a surprise attack war on my country, or persecute my people or take my money.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  480. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    You are not going to launch a surprise attack war on my country, or persecute my people or take my money.

    Your country? Israel? Sounds like an Israeli slogan. Besides, who is persecuting Americans? Seems like it’s rich Americans and dual-passport holding Americans. Who is taking your money? DITTO!!

    Living in past history, or even fear of surprise attack, does not establish a defense against surprise attack. Surprise attacks are commonplace, and a standard tactic.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @Sam Shama
  481. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Yes, it has.

    No, it hasn’t.

    Demonstrable and verifiable. Get that through your head.

    Let’s see both the demonstration and verification. Until then, I’d say the official narrative is BS. Get that through your head.

    If you wish to figure out some way to bring the US, Israeli, and other governments to account for some set of provable corruption, by all means, proceed.

    That’s a separate issue, but why the snark?

    • Agree: Rurik
  482. utu says:

    Fred Reed and his little helpers:

    John Jeremiah Smith
    War for Blair Mountain
    MCPO USN

    Still waiting for Wizard of Oz who like vulture usually comes at the end of discussions to feast on leftovers and then for Talha who usually closes the discussions by boring to death those who are still left.

  483. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Are all of you aware that WWII ended 71 years ago? All the “blameables” are dead.

    So what?

    I’ll grant you that we’ve been told it ended, but what makes anyone think it really ever did?

    FYI, many credible historians make the case that WW2 was nothing more than WW1 continued. I’d take that a step beyond and say that it appears to me that many of the basic issues that led to “both” are as yet unresolved and probably won’t be resolved any time soon.

    The 2 big ones were prolonged and bloody battles in a war that continues.

  484. Rurik says:
    @L.K

    However, I find it strange that you can be nice to shama and forgive his obvious dishonest behaviour, tribal behaviour btw, while getting so angry at Rehmat.
    Is it bc Rehmat is a paki and brown while you see an asshole like shamaa as white and part of the West?

    I hope you’re being facetious LK

    that’s just silly

    I don’t care what a person’s ethnicity is when he calls my people ‘racists and butchers’ and denigrates their collective character- and in Doormat’s case, while enjoying those people’s gracious hospitality and living in their country. It’s beyond repugnant, and it speaks of a soul that is rotten with tribal hatreds and resentments.

    Anyone who demands that all white nations have been slated for the trash heap of history, can suck my ***** ****. whether they’re white, brown, black or purple.

    Now, do I understand that the most insidious and invidious hate-consumed tribal enmity for white nations and Western civilization is basically emanating out of the tribe that worships the OT god of tribal hatreds himself? Yes, of course I do. It is out of the bowels of Zionism where the death of the West has been orchestrated from the beginning. I get that. But I don’t see Sam doing to much of the Noel Ignatiev impression here.

    If Sam was going on about how racist Trump or Nigel Farage was and that the Brits were racists and butchers and needed more immigrants to wipe them out, which is how I hear Doormat sounding all the time, then Sam too would earn whatever wrath I could muster. But he doesn’t.

    When he does say things that I find highly execrable, like trying (pathetically) to justify putting that little old lady in prison, then I hope I use rhetoric just as harsh as any I’ve used for Doormat.

    Rehmat can occasionally make salient points, and when he does, I take them for what they’re worth. But on other occasions he comes off like a miserable Islamophilic bore and anti-white racist cad. At best.

    Contrast him with Talha and it’s night vs. day.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    , @L.K
  485. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @utu

    I hear you’re voting for Hillary.
    I hear you’re drawing welfare for your 15 baby-mamas and their babies.
    I hear you drink a lot of Colt 45.
    I hear you dodged the draft.

    All true. Trump confirms it. How can you live with yourself, commie?

  486. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @jacques sheete

    Let’s leave the past alone.

    Why?

    Why? For the same reason you don’t run around picking up dried cowpies and forcing them back into the cow.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  487. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    Anyone who demands that all white nations have been slated for the trash heap of history, can suck my ***** ****. whether they’re white, brown, black or purple.

    My ***** **** turns purple when it’s sucked … little known fact.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  488. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Your country? Israel? Sounds like an Israeli slogan. Besides, who is persecuting Americans? Seems like it’s rich Americans and dual-passport holding Americans. Who is taking your money? DITTO!!

    The Jews What Done It!

    It seems that this is your first day of commenting at Unz. This sentiment is already well covered here, but feel free to join the group. At least you didn’t beat around the bush forever.

    Sam & geo,

    The “forget the past” tipped me off from the gitgo, I should be receiving my certificate any day now.

  489. Rurik says:
    @reiner Tor

    Now, what is your argument against what I wrote in this comment:

    229. reiner Tor says:
    October 26, 2016 at 9:58 am GMT • 100 Words

    It would be nice to hear some arguments from you instead of simple name calling.

    October 26, 2016 at 9:58 am GMT • 100 Words

    They never explained how they got it wrong (reporting of a collapsed building that is still standing).

    That’s not a very good argument. The building was – according to the official version – on the verge of collapse. In the confusion, right after they pulled out the firefighters due to the imminent collapse

    “due to the imminent collapse” eh?

    to this day no one can explain how the building came down other than a pre-planned controlled demolition, and you’ve got the nads to say it was obviously, ‘imminently’ going to come down based on what?

    based on pure bullshit

    your argument is the same as saying those Mossad agents who had their cameras set up to “document the event”, did so because they just knew that a plane was going to hit the Trade Center because it was “imminent”, not because of anything that anyone had done to arrange it, but rather because these guys just saw the planes in the distance and calculated the trajectory and just got lucky. It had been a long time since a jet had hit a building, and they knew that if they waited long enough, it would eventually be “imminent”. And just like the news crews who pre-reported on building seven collapsing, those Mossad agents were just lucky too, since an imploding building was just as imminent as a jets hitting the towers.

    [especially if you had pre-arranged for both events to happen]

    duh fucking duh

  490. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    little known fact.

    that’s gratuitous

    I don’t use vulgar language unless it’s necessary to make a point

    try please to keep the tenor out of the sewer

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  491. Sparkon [AKA "SP"] says:
    @Cloak And Dagger

    The government has already told us how it happened. We just need to show that what they told us is a lie.

    Yes, and some of the liars have outed themselves already long ago.

    And I was sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower — the TV was obviously on.
    –George W. Bush

    President Bush lied about his initial awareness of the WTC attacks. We know that because 1) there was no live TV broadcast of first WTC attack, and 2) ABC News reported that Bush already knew about the first WTC event even before he left his hotel that morning.

    ‘ABC News’ Special Report:
    Tuesday 11 September 2001

    JENNINGS: …Want to check in very quickly with the president of the United States. John Cochran with the president in Florida. John:

    JOHN COCHRAN reporting:

    Peter, as you know, the president’s down in Florida talking about education. He got out of his hotel suite this morning, was about to leave, reporters saw the White House chief of staff, Andy Card, whisper into his ear. The reporter said to the president, ‘Do you know what’s going on in New York?’ He said he did, and he said he will have something about it later. His first event is about half an hour at an elementary school in Sarasota, Florida.

    JENNINGS: Thanks, John. John Cochran with the president…

    (my bold)
    ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4rkfgHTK-M&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.911blogger.com%2Fnode%2F8345

    When Bush got the second whisper from Card that morning, the President just sat there, and didn’t do a thing to fulfill his responsibilities as Commander in Chief.

    The buck stops there.

  492. Rurik says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Planes fueled with a combined 240,000 pounds of hi-test kerosene crashed into the buildings

    holy shit!!!

    it was hi-test kerosene?!?!

    God damn, we’re all lucky to be alive!

    no wonder building seven plopped into its basement!

    the jets that struck the other towers were laden with *hi-test* kerosene !

    no wonder they shipped off all the forensic evidence to be melted down

    if any of that “hi-test” kerosene would have gotten on anyone, we might all be dead today!

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  493. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    the seething rage exhibited by defenders of the official position strongly suggests some kind of dishonesty.

    There are several interesting possible explanations for the tone of the debate.

    The rage may be a reflection of the acute cognitive dissonance experienced by some at the suggestion that 9/11 was other than as presented by the U.S. Government.

    Or the rage may indicate an effort at disruption. By making the discussion of 9/11 so pointless and unpleasant that reasonable people avoid it. That would be consistent with the assumption that some of the participants in this discussion are paid agents of cognitive infiltration.

    Another approach to disrupting intelligent discussion of 9/11 would be to introduce crazy Judy-Woods-Type theories, about mini-nukes and space-based beam weapons, as some participants of this discussion have done quite persistently.

    Then there’s the Jewish angle, which has been brought prominently into this discussion with the objective on the part of some, perhaps, of smearing those who question the official 9/11 narrative as anti-Semites.

    Altogether, the psychology of the debate and underlying motivation of the participants seems more interesting than most of the content as I have discussed elsewhere under the title 9/11 Hallucinations .

  494. @iffen

    Credit where it’s due, that was a good one.

  495. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Hi Iffen,
    Master chief petty officer, emphasis on the 3rd word, offers deep thoughts in shallow waters.

  496. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    The Jews What Done It!

    It seems that this is your first day of commenting at Unz. This sentiment is already well covered here, but feel free to join the group.

    Nosir, I focus more on individuals and groups who claim to be American, but whose allegiance is clearly to Israel. Many of those people are Jewish, but it is not a requirement.

    • Replies: @iffen
  497. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Sam Shama

    Master chief petty officer, emphasis on the 3rd word, offers deep thoughts in shallow waters.

    First one’s free, Samuel. After that, watch out, as I do not suffer fools gladly. You are, of course, welcome to give it a try. I could use the exercise.

  498. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    it was hi-test kerosene?!?!

    Av fuel, babe. Aviation grade. Adiabatic burn temperature 4,040°F, open air burn temperature 1,890°F.

    Steel bends like rubber at 1000°F.

    It was a familiar smell on hangar deck, with a little different flavor to the fumes up on flight.

  499. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Rurik

    try please to keep the tenor out of the sewer

    Impossible. It’s a natural environment for Italian singers.

    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus
  500. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I focus more on individuals and groups who claim to be American

    Do you, in fact, have the official citizenship list? We see many references to the list in many different forms, true Americans, patriotic Americans, etc., yada, yada. Heretofore none have produced “the” actual list only a personalized preference, but perhaps you are different and have the original list, gold embossed, no doubt.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
    , @Art
  501. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    It’s not shallow around here, Sam, sometimes it’s knee-deep. O wait! I guess that’s not water.

  502. Sparkon [AKA "SP"] says:

    The crimes of 9/11 are sitting in plain sight.

    In addition to Bush’s lies, and his failure to take action after being informed that “America is under attack,” we have the Pentagon’s failure to defend itself, the Air Force’s failure to intercept any of the hijacked airliners, and destruction of evidence by the mayor of NYC, Rudy Guiliani.

    We also have Norman Mineta’s testimony to Tom Hammond of the 9/11 Commission about Cheney in his bunker getting updates about an approaching airplane. Mineta’s testimony was omitted from the final 9/11 Commission Report, probably because it completely contradicts Cheney’s accounts of when he arrived at the PEOC bunker:

    “During the time that the airplane was coming into the Pentagon, there was a young man who would come in and say to the Vice President…the plane is 50 miles out…the plane is 30 miles out…and when it got down to the plane is 10 miles out, the young man also said to the vice president “do the orders still stand?” And the Vice President turned and whipped his neck around and said “Of course the orders still stand, have you heard anything to the contrary!?”

    https://extremeprejudiceusa.wordpress.com/2013/08/26/secretary-mineta-confirms-dick-cheney-ordered-stand-down-on-911/

    We know that no airplane was shot down at the Pentagon. Therefore, we may reasonably assume that “the orders” must have been Hold Your Fire!

    Cheney didn’t want to shoot down his own airplane, which was about to buzz the Pentagon.

    Which only goes to show there’s more than one way to score an own goal, or shoot yourself in the foot.

  503. Sam Shama says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Living in past history, or even fear of surprise attack, does not establish a defense against surprise attack. Surprise attacks are commonplace, and a standard tactic.

    History as far as one is aware, is only of the past. Preparation for future contingencies can only be planned with data, which definitionally is from the past. Do you have data from the future? That would be a neat trick.

    Planning is the only avenue for rational conduct that reduces surprises to whatever degree, mostly a function of competence of the entity and its members.

    Your move. I shall respond after shabbat.

  504. iffen says:
    @Sam Shama

    I shall respond after shabbat.

    I make a pledge to pay closer attention. All this time I thought that you were a backslider like me.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    , @Art
  505. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    fuel, babe. Aviation grade. Adiabatic burn temperature 4,040°F, open air burn temperature 1,890°F.

    Steel bends like rubber at 1000 °F.

    But according to MIT Professor, Thomas Eager, steel does not bend like rubber at 1000 °F, but loses only half its strength at 650 °C (equal to 1202 °F) not enough to account for the collapse of the towers.

    The fire is the most misunderstood part of the WTC collapse. Even today, the media report (and many scientists believe) that the steel melted. It is argued that the jet fuel burns very hot, especially with so much fuel present. This is not true.

    Part of the problem is that people (including engineers) often confuse temperature and heat. While they are related, they are not the same. Thermodynamically, the heat contained in a material is related to the temperature through the heat capacity and the density (or mass). Temperature is defined as an intensive property, meaning that it does not vary with the quantity of material, while the heat is an extensive property, which does vary with the amount of material. One way to distinguish the two is to note that if a second log is added to the fireplace, the temperature does not double; it stays roughly the same, but the size of the fire or the length of time the fire burns, or a combination of the two, doubles. Thus, the fact that there were 90,000 L of jet fuel on a few floors of the WTC does not mean that this was an unusually hot fire. The temperature of the fire at the WTC was not unusual, and it was most definitely not capable of melting steel.

    In combustion science, there are three basic types of flames, namely, a jet burner, a pre-mixed flame, and a diffuse flame. A jet burner generally involves mixing the fuel and the oxidant in nearly stoichiometric proportions and igniting the mixture in a constant-volume chamber. Since the combustion products cannot expand in the constant-volume chamber, they exit the chamber as a very high velocity, fully combusted, jet. This is what occurs in a jet engine, and this is the flame type that generates the most intense heat.

    In a pre-mixed flame, the same nearly stoichiometric mixture is ignited as it exits a nozzle, under constant pressure conditions. It does not attain the flame velocities of a jet burner. An oxyacetylene torch or a Bunsen burner is a pre-mixed flame.

    In a diffuse flame, the fuel and the oxidant are not mixed before ignition, but flow together in an uncontrolled manner and combust when the fuel/oxidant ratios reach values within the flammable range. A fireplace flame is a diffuse flame burning in air, as was the WTC fire.

    Diffuse flames generate the lowest heat intensities of the three flame types.

    If the fuel and the oxidant start at ambient temperature, a maximum flame temperature can be defined. For carbon burning in pure oxygen, the maximum is 3,200°C; for hydrogen it is 2,750°C. Thus, for virtually any hydrocarbons, the maximum flame temperature, starting at ambient temperature and using pure oxygen, is approximately 3,000°C.

    This maximum flame temperature is reduced by two-thirds if air is used rather than pure oxygen. The reason is that every molecule of oxygen releases the heat of formation of a molecule of carbon monoxide and a molecule of water. If pure oxygen is used, this heat only needs to heat two molecules (carbon monoxide and water), while with air, these two molecules must be heated plus four molecules of nitrogen. Thus, burning hydrocarbons in air produces only one-third the temperature increase as burning in pure oxygen because three times as many molecules must be heated when air is used. The maximum flame temperature increase for burning hydrocarbons (jet fuel) in air is, thus, about 1,000°C—hardly sufficient to melt steel at 1,500°C.

    But it is very difficult to reach this maximum temperature with a diffuse flame. There is nothing to ensure that the fuel and air in a diffuse flame are mixed in the best ratio. Typically, diffuse flames are fuel rich, meaning that the excess fuel molecules, which are unburned, must also be heated. It is known that most diffuse fires are fuel rich because blowing on a campfire or using a blacksmith’s bellows increases the rate of combustion by adding more oxygen. This fuel-rich diffuse flame can drop the temperature by up to a factor of two again. This is why the temperatures in a residential fire are usually in the 500°C to 650°C range.2,3 It is known that the WTC fire was a fuel-rich, diffuse flame as evidenced by the copious black smoke. Soot is generated by incompletely burned fuel; hence, the WTC fire was fuel rich—hardly surprising with 90,000 L of jet fuel available. Factors such as flame volume and quantity of soot decrease the radiative heat loss in the fire, moving the temperature closer to the maximum of 1,000°C. However, it is highly unlikely that the steel at the WTC experienced temperatures above the 750–800°C range. All reports that the steel melted at 1,500°C are using imprecise terminology at best.

    Some reports suggest that the aluminum from the aircraft ignited, creating very high temperatures. While it is possible to ignite aluminum under special conditions, such conditions are not commonly attained in a hydrocarbon-based diffuse flame. In addition, the flame would be white hot, like a giant sparkler. There was no evidence of such aluminum ignition, which would have been visible even through the dense soot.

    It is known that structural steel begins to soften around 425°C and loses about half of its strength at 650°C.4 This is why steel is stress relieved in this temperature range. But even a 50% loss of strength is still insufficient, by itself, to explain the WTC collapse. It was noted above that the wind load controlled the design allowables. The WTC, on this low-wind day, was likely not stressed more than a third of the design allowable, which is roughly one-fifth of the yield strength of the steel. Even with its strength halved, the steel could still support two to three times the stresses imposed by a 650°C fire.

    Source

  506. Sam Shama says:
    @iffen

    Backslider is trying….trying :-)

  507. @John Jeremiah Smith

    But does it (bending steeel) symmetrically give way such that the observed free fall could have taken place?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  508. Continuing with the food analogy, NIST essentially replaced the pancake theory with a noodle theory, whereby all the supports became like cooked spaghetti, offering no resistance to the falling floors. Is that anymore believable?

  509. Oldeguy says:
    @Rurik

    Not a bad list to start with; it could have been ( as you no doubt know ) both much longer and more detailed, but it simply would have wasted even more keystrokes.
    I suspect some of our commentators here are “professionals” whose daily bread depends on debunking skeptics.
    Anyone who has attempted to share ( face to face ) doubts about the Official Version knows that evidence is not the problem.
    It’s fear of the implications of the Official Version being bogus- many, many folks simply “don’t want to go there”.

  510. Oldeguy says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Excellent summary comment.
    If the Official Version were true, every commercial jetliner in existence would be an individual weapon of mass destruction- one airliner hits a building, and an hour later no building no matter how massive.
    Terrorist organizations the world over would be seizing control of hub airports near major cities and demolishing nuclear power plants, central business districts, central governmental districts, major dams, you name it.
    The threat would be severe enough to justify the trouble and expense of permanently garrisoning and major reconfiguring airports.
    Have we seen any of that ?
    You might check my reply to Rurik below concerning “evidence”.

  511. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    perhaps you are different and have the original list, gold embossed, no doubt.

    I sure do! And gold, hell, it’s platinum!

    • Replies: @iffen
  512. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    But does it (bending steeel) symmetrically give way such that the observed free fall could have taken place?

    The buildings, when they caved, did not instantly go to “free fall”. The 3 floors on and below the point of impact cooked-off the steel connections first. There was a drop and a brief hitch, then acceleration to the equivalent of free fall, as the cumulative mass becomes so great that the load rating of the floors below (by specification, 3 times the actual gross weight of the floor) is blown away, is effectively negligible.

    As to the symmetry, I don’t know. The planes did hit fairly dead-on center.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  513. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @CanSpeccy

    But according to MIT Professor, Thomas Eager, steel does not bend like rubber at 1000 °F, but loses only half its strength at 650 °C (equal to 1202 °F) not enough to account for the collapse of the towers.

    Of course it is. There’s more than four stories above the impact point, and the burst rating on the steel ties is only triple-spec the floor gross weight rating.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  514. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Sam Shama

    Preparation for future contingencies can only be planned with data, which definitionally is from the past. Do you have data from the future? That would be a neat trick.

    I take it you believe that no one will ever think up a surprise attack without some history of it? You are pushing to the point of absurdity. Collective memory, without written history, extends back at least two generations. You think nobody plans a surprise attack, ever, inside two generations? Hey, you ever play Army when you were a kid?

  515. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    The buildings, when they caved, did not instantly go to “free fall”. The 3 floors on and below the point of impact cooked-off the steel connections first. There was a drop and a brief hitch

    You can actually see this happening in the collage of WTC collapse video below. In the closeups, you can see the 3-4 floors at the center of impact crumble, do a partial inward collapse. It spreads quickly across the tower on that floor, then it’s two floors, then three. Then it really gets going as the mass succumbs to gravity, accumulates, and accelerates downward.

  516. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    For someone who came in and disparaged the idea of “chat-mode” you seem to be quite the Cathy.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  517. Paul C. says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    I disagree. Step 1 is to inform the public of WTC 7 and what happened. Sad to say that most, maybe 90% haven’t a clue. Why? Because the government and their controlled media, refuse to even acknowledge it, for it is the clearest evidence of the crime that was committed.

    9/11 was a farce. No disrespect to those who died and their families, that’s who most of us are trying to support. But what I mean is everything we were told about what happened was a lie.

    There’s an avalanche of evidence but yet the system is so tightly controlled that Unz is currently the best vehicle for expressing and sharing the truth. It’s sad what has become of this country.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  518. L.K says:
    @Rurik

    Well, Rurik, on second thoughts, I think I have only seen your “wrath” when this comes up:

    Anyone who demands that all white nations have been slated for the trash heap of history, can suck my ***** ****.

    I do not recall you getting nearly as agitated about a number of other important issues, not even 9-11, so maybe that ‘s why you pull your punches with shameless, as in fact you do the same with many other posters who are obvious shills,( which is why you earned the “modern day Will Rogers” title from J.R.), as long as it is not the above subject.
    I do recall you were even hostile to Mr.Unz in that immigration article of his.
    So, I guess this is ‘your thing’. Fine by me.

    Now, let me tell you an anecdote re that zio-light acquaintance of mine;
    I told him that during WW2, hundreds of thousands of German and Italian Americans, many with a recent immigrant past, were drafted into the US military and sent to fight & kill Germans & Italians in Europe. For better or worse, as US citizens, they carried on with the dirty job.
    They could have tried to desert or surrender to avoid fighting their blood brothers, but that never happened.
    I proposed to my zio-light acquaintance, that for the sake of testing a hypothesis, that he momentarily would agree with moi, that 9-11 had indeed been the deed of the zionists/israelis.
    Then, that something extraordinary would happen; a real investigation takes place & the evidence confirms it was really the Israelis and their operatives in Zamerica.
    Pissed off, ZUSA declares war on Israel. I asked him if he thought many US zionists would support such a war, let alone enlist to fight Israel. I asked him more broadly about US Jews in general. After some thought he replied that as for the zio ones, – and there r many – most would never even support such a war, let alone fight it. As for the more general US Jewish community, he thought many would distance themselves from Israel but he could not see many of them enlisting to actually fight the ‘Jew’ State, which, BTW, is an artificial State & Nation, unlike Germany and Italy.

    What do u think?

    • Replies: @Rurik
  519. Jon Gold says: • Website

    It is NOT, nor has it EVER BEEN a prerequisite to believe in the “Controlled Demolition” of the buildings in order to be an advocate for 9/11 Justice. You shouldn’t have to be a scholar, an engineer, a scientist, a physicist, an architect, etc… to understand the need for accountability and justice concerning the 9/11 attacks.

  520. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Of course it is.

    I’m not going to debate you on it, but I’m more inclined to take the word of Thomas Eager, an MIT Professor of Engineering, over the word of an anonymous poster of no known qualifications.

    In any case, you’re scenario, and Eager’s for that matter, overlooks the law of conservation of momentum. The collapse of all the towers occurred more rapidly than would have been possible without explosives to blast the structure to dust and flying beams.

  521. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    For someone who came in and disparaged the idea of “chat-mode” you seem to be quite the Cathy.

    Whoa, nellie. It’s past sundown. Are you even allowed to type?

    Sheesh, chat mode. I log into T-mobile, try to get the “plan” changed, try to get “chat” going. It was easier to just call ‘em.

    • Replies: @iffen
  522. @John Jeremiah Smith

    I did read your comment, where did you say anything substantive about WTC7?

    I’m generally highly suspicious about people who offer unsolicited advice about policing others’ “movements”.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  523. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    I should be receiving my certificate any day now.

    Be sure to laminate it properly.

    • Replies: @iffen
  524. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Paul C.

    I disagree. Step 1 is to inform the public of WTC 7 and what happened.

    Okay. I’ve been meaning to take a closer look at WTC7. Haven’t paid much attention to it. I studied the construction design of the two towers, but not Bldg 7.

  525. iffen says:
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Get up to speed.

    Sam is Jewish. He’s a little Jew who is determined to become a Big Jew.

    I am a Ziozombie Jew wannabe.

    Did I get it right, Arts?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  526. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    I did read your comment, where did you say anything substantive about WTC7?

    I didn’t. I had no idea I was required to comment on WTC7.

    I’m generally highly suspicious about people who offer unsolicited advice about policing others’ “movements”.

    You lost me there, babe. Either way, my input ends with Msg 539, which illustrates all I need to see. There was no controlled demolition of the two towers. They happened as the official story indicates, with allowances for very specific details. I can’t see why WTC7 would have a controlled demolition, but I have not taken a close look. IMO, people tend to believe what they want to believe, and it’s no skin off my ass if it’s not the same belief as mine.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  527. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Thanks geo,

    You have helped me. Did you notice that I didn’t just come out and call him an 88 from the gitgo? Improvement, right?

  528. Art says:
    @iffen

    Do you, in fact, have the official citizenship list? We see many references to the list in many different forms, true Americans, patriotic Americans, etc., yada, yada.

    yada, yada — Ha!

    Only a Jew can be so flippant and arrogant about 9/11 and American patriotism.

    • Replies: @iffen
  529. iffen says:
    @Art

    Only a Jew can be so flippant and arrogant

    Dude, you already certified me as not Jewish.

    You goyim are such retards, write it down if you can’t remember.

    Wait, you did write it down, shit, I don’t know how to help you.

    • Replies: @geokat62
    , @Art
  530. mcohen. says:

    just curious…..who was there on the day and actually witnessed what happened.

    anyone ????

    i would like to hear your opinion.did you witness any helicopters flying around before the towers fell

  531. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    You goyim are such retards…

    See, Sam. What’d I tell ya? iffen is more honest than I thought… at least he’s willing to admit we’re just dumb goy. Are you sure you don’t feel the same?

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  532. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @iffen

    Sam is Jewish. He’s a little Jew who is determined to become a Big Jew.

    I am a Ziozombie Jew wannabe.

    Can’t help ya, bud. Impressed, I am not.

  533. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @jacques sheete

    What is it you want, sheete? Spit it out, I’m a busy man.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  534. @John Jeremiah Smith

    You had written:

    “If you wish to figure out some way to bring the US, Israeli, and other governments to account for some set of provable corruption, by all means, proceed. But utter ridiculous nonsense, such as “dozens of mini-nuclear bombs” destroyed the WTC — please, for gods sake, you must divest your movement of such silliness.”

    What do you care? Who asked you? Is this the Navy’s jurisdiction?

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  535. Art says:
    @iffen

    Shama: I shall respond after shabbat.

    iffen: I make a pledge to pay closer attention. All this time I thought that you were a backslider like me.

    Oh my — Hasbara Central is branching out – now it is Zionombie Comedy Central.

    Here we has the comedy team of Shama&iffen making fun of the concern of good Americas for 9/11. Shame shame.

    Talk about adding insult to injury – will this darkness ever end – will these people ever find the bright honest side of life? Will this darkness just go on interminably generation after generation? Father, son, grandson – how wrong – how cruel.

    Art

    p.s. Will America ever be free of this scourge – will it ever be great again?

    • Replies: @iffen
  536. Art says:
    @iffen

    Dude, you already certified me as not Jewish.

    You goyim are such retards, write it down if you can’t remember.

    Wait, you did write it down, shit, I don’t know how to help you.

    Hey iffen,

    Sorry man — but I am only an 88 (IQ) – what do you expect?

    Thanks for correcting me. Clearly I need your help keeping all the lies straight, coming from you Zionombies.

    Humbly yours — Art

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @iffen
  537. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    I am laughing out loud, literally. Navy? I haven’t been in the Navy for twenty years. As to “who asked me”? Nobody. This is the comment section, you jackass. Who fucking asked YOU???

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  538. @reiner Tor

    there’s little evidence that the Reichstag fire was really the work of the Nazis themselves . . .The Reichstag fire is a good illustration of how opportunities arise for politicians who can then ruthlessly grab the opportunity created by an external event and push for their agenda (which they’d have pushed for anyway, but would’ve been more difficult without help from the event).

    One intriguing minor detail about the Reichstag fire is that it was Putzi Hanfstaengl who telephoned Goebbels to inform him/Hitler of the fire.
    How did it happen that Putzi knew so quickly?
    Putzi had a close relationship with FDR; Putzi encouraged AH to write Mein Kampf; Putzi financed the publisher of Mein Kampf; Putzi alerted FDR of the existence of Hitler and of Mein Kampf; Putzi sheltered and financed Hitler after the failed putsch; Putzi spent several years in Washington, DC during the war, being debriefed by FDR’s administration, which eventually cast him aside. Was Hanfstaengl Hitler’s handler?

    nb. Overall, the obsession with AH is a giveaway of a frenzied need to sustain a bogus narrative. It endows one man with superhuman qualities and abilities, while simultaneously characterizing him as an ignorant dolt. Only in a post-war Communist propaganda film is the spotlight focused on the network of forces — industrialists, financiers, elites, etc. — in Germany who had an interest in war, and that Hitler played a relatively small role, albeit at center-stage, in mobilizing the populace to support their wishes.
    Furthermore, the falsity of the government’s 9/11 narrative, and the patterns of that narrative; most especially, the need for a Hitleresque character — bin Laden, Saddam, Qaddafi — when a Swiss reporter interviewed Bashar Assad recently, in his second question he said, “John Kerry called you Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein in the same breath. Does it bother you?” – it’s almost like a confession on Kerry’s part; repeating the pattern seems to suggests that since obviously Assad is not Hitler, maybe Hitler was not Hitler either and propagandizing a bogus narrative did not start with bin Laden but with Hitler.

    (Not to belabor the point, but it also suggests that the US/zionist propagandists are basically one-trick ponies: neocons especially are really stuck on their WWII concoctions; they’re as proud of their created reality as a two-year old is of his first deposit in the potty. For example, one of the key drivers to disbanding the Iraqi army was the memory of the way the German army was destroyed — “deNazified” — post-surrender. Get a new script, boys, this one’s wearing thin.)

  539. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Impossible. It’s a natural environment for Italian singers.

    First one’s free, MCPO USN . After that, watch out, as I do not suffer fools gladly. You are, of course, welcome to give it a try. I could use the exercise.

    My Italian father’s tombstone has USN after his name.

  540. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Busy indeed, though rarely has an individual been busier writing so many words to say so very little of value.

    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  541. So I guess we can all agree with Jill Stein and demand a new forensic/criminal investigation with subpoena powers.

    Even anti-Truthers like MCPO USN must agree that a new investigation is essential to hammer out all the details mentioned in this thread.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  542. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    I take it as a bad sign that you seem to be unaware that certificates are framed and displayed on the wall. Cards on the other hand are laminated. Does this mean that you have no certificates, but do have a card? And just when I was on the verge of deciding that you might not be a card carrying member of the dark side, rurik either, for that matter. Do the cards have membership numbers?

    Did you give up on providing me with the comments of mine that are the sources of your complaints against me?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  543. iffen says:
    @Art

    Clearly I need your help keeping all the lies straight

    Just have the common decency to read what the other Arts have had to say on a subject before piping up.

  544. Erebus says:

    I encourage Blair Mountain, John Jeremiah Smith & MCPO USN to do a bit of calculation. Any assumptions should be reasonable.

    [a] Calculate the energy available, kinetic, potential and chemical, from flying airplanes, fuel, and gravity.
    [b] Calculate the energy kinetic, potential and chemical, required to molecularly disassociate 400kT of concrete and blow it some 50M sideways (on average) and to bring a tower down in approximately 10 seconds.
    For the purposes of this exercise, you can ignore the “pools of molten metal” and the thermal mapping showing surface temperatures at an astonishing 700C (1300F) 5 days after the event though they are probably quite relevant, even if difficult to quantify

    Compare the numbers. Are they within an order of magnitude?
    (Hint: No, not even close.)

    Explain where the missing energy came from.

    Can’t?
    Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one should remain silent. You’ve been anything but.

  545. iffen says:
    @Art

    making fun of the concern of good Americas

    There’s a new list keeper in town, Arts. You will have to check with MCPO to see if “you and your good Americans” are on the official list.

  546. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    I take it as a bad sign that you seem to be unaware that certificates are framed and displayed on the wall. Cards on the other hand are laminated.

    I may be unaware of how things are done south of the 49th, but where I live all birth certificates are laminated.

    Did you give up on providing me with the comments of mine that are the sources of your complaints against me?

    Perhaps there was a little confusion with regard to this comment:

    Geo, do I ever ask you to read any propaganda? I think it was you who suggested the Mearsheimer and Walt article to me.

    From this sentence, I inferred you were implying M&W were propagandists.

    • Replies: @iffen
  547. @John Jeremiah Smith

    Temper, temper, what’s up with that?

    Yeah, it’s the comment section, sailor boy, have at it. Still, unsolicited advice about who or what a “movement” should tolerate as opposed to simply addressing the issue at hand is usually an indication of dishonesty.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  548. iffen says:
    @Art

    Sorry man — but I am only an 88 (IQ) – what do you expect?

    Arts, since your moms didn’t teach you, I will just tell you: It is impolite to brag.

    • Replies: @Sam Shama
  549. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    From this sentence, I inferred you were implying M&W were propagandists.

    Yes, the mistake was mine. I meant to say that I don’t like recommendations of propaganda, although I thought that I remembered that you had recommended M & W, so I should perhaps make another exception for you this time.

    Did you give up on providing me with the comments of mine that are the sources of your complaints against me?

    This is what I am talking about:

    IIRC, when you first started posting comments on Unz you were keen on pestering me with (in)decent questions. Just returning the favour, iffen.

  550. geokat62 says:

    This is what I am talking about:

    Nothing in particular, iffen. But I got the sense you had developed a certain fixation with most of the comments I had posted a few months back.

    • Replies: @iffen
  551. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    My Italian father’s tombstone has USN after his name.

    That’s a rather unusual designation, even for Italians. Typical is Jr., II, III, etc.

    None of my ancestors put their military ID on their tombstones, and neither will I. It may have been something I would have wanted when I first went career, but I’ve grown up since then.

  552. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty

    Yeah, it’s the comment section, sailor boy, have at it. Still, unsolicited advice about who or what a “movement” should tolerate as opposed to simply addressing the issue at hand is usually an indication of dishonesty.

    Son, unsolicited advice is what comment sections are all about.

    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
  553. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    Just trying to sharpen my Nazi hunter skills, correct mistakes that I have made, understand why I made them, avoid making them in the future, etc.

  554. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Erebus

    I encourage Blair Mountain, John Jeremiah Smith & MCPO USN to do a bit of calculation. Any assumptions should be reasonable.

    It’s been done.

    Look, fella, opinions vary, and no opinion changes facts. In my opinion, the video link I posted yesterday illustrates the process of the tower collapse, clearly and visibly. Therefore, I conclude the best explanation is the official version. You are free to accept some other explanation, and fella, believe me here, I could not care less what your opinion is. 95% of Americans accept some minor variation on the official explanation, so good luck with getting people to accept any conspiracy theories you might have about who, what, when and why. You may dwell forever in the land of Vast Conspiracies, and I just do not give a damn.

    Bldg 7 video is not good enough to put it in the same class as the towers, so if I were you, I would stick with Bldg 7. Build a conspiracy around that. It might work, there’s always people out there looking for a good conspiracy.

    Best wishes to you, and I am just about through with this topic for all eternity.

    • Replies: @CanSpeccy
  555. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @NoseytheDuke

    Busy indeed, though rarely has an individual been busier writing so many words to say so very little of value.

    Like the sentence in the blockquote above?

  556. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @Si1ver1ock

    Even anti-Truthers like MCPO USN must agree that a new investigation is essential to hammer out all the details mentioned in this thread.

    Great idea. Take up a collection and use the money for a new investigation. Better yet, talk to Bill Gates and tell him Melinda said it’s a good idea. Maybe he’ll pay for it, ’cause I for damn sure don’t want to see any more of my tax money go down the conspiracy rathole. The taxpayer money that’s been firehosed down the government investigation rathole is plenty enough.

    If you convince the government to do it, the findings will be the same, and a different bunch of government contractors and their relatives will be millionaires.

    • Replies: @Si1ver1ock
  557. iffen says:
    @geokat62

    iffen is more honest than I thought

    Hey, wait a minute, you are implying that you question my honesty. How can I have trust in your honesty if you don’t trust mine?

    • Replies: @geokat62
  558. CanSpeccy says: • Website
    @John Jeremiah Smith

    Look, fella, opinions vary, and no opinion changes facts. In my opinion, the video link I posted yesterday illustrates the process of the tower collapse, clearly and visibly. Therefore, I conclude the best explanation is the official version.

    LOL

    We should all be grateful to Cass Sunstein for providing realists with the term “agent of cognitive infiltration,” without which many might be puzzled by the presence at every discussion of 9/11 of relentlessly aggressive but ignorant people who will argue, as though they are paid by the word, that everyone who questions the official 9/11 theory is a dumb “babe” or “fella” etc. who only needs to look at some video or accept some seemingly nonsensical but forcefully asserted proposition to resolve all their footling objections based on mere Newtonian mechanics, thermodynamics, or whatever line some obviously deluded professor of mathematics, physics or engineering may have adopted.

    Fortunately, Sunstein’s operation has trouble recruiting anyone with a real mastery of the subject under discussion, an inevitable difficulty, since no top-class physicist is going to waste time on a discussion like the above, and in any case, the purpose of such interference is morally contemptible.

    • Replies: @John Jeremiah Smith
  559. @Erebus

    Erebus

    If Crockett Gage…..Steve Jones…..Niells Harrit….Judy Wood…..Richard Gage….and that High School Physics Teacher(whose very flawed calculation highly impresses you) believed that they have discovered monumental scientific stupidity by PHD’s who got an A in physics 101(Bazant and Zhou)…………..a modest proposal:write a very detailed scientific paper(computer code included) and submit it to a very elite Mechanical Engineering Journal and a very elite Spectroscoby Journal for peer review. And at the same time, deliver this paper express mail to the Cal Tech and MIT Physics,Chemistry, and Engineering Departments and demand an audience with the tenured Cal Tech and MIT Physics, Engineering, and Chemistry Faculty and Graduate Research assistants. Video Tape the whole seminar, and put it up on You Tube.

    In other words I am demanding that the 9/11 Truther Scientists to follow the well known scientific protocol of serious peer review.

    Crockett Grabbe’s 8 page letter to the Journal of Mechanical Engineering does not count…he just accuses to tenured elite professors of Mechanical Engineering of lacking the Divine Inspiration that he has for freshman physics level understanding of Newton’s third Law and angular momentum.

  560. geokat62 says:
    @iffen

    How can I have trust in your honesty if you don’t trust mine?

    You’re the one who honestly suspects I’m an 88, remember?

  561. @War for Blair Mountain

    Are you going to do the calculation, or what?

  562. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says:
    @CanSpeccy

    Okay, Canobeans, you win. I will henceforth swear that every conspiracy theory you support and favor is the gods honest truth. I’ve read enough pure bullshit in these comments to suffice for the next hundred years. You win. I quit.

    • Replies: @iffen
    , @NoseytheDuke
  563. John Jeremiah Smith [AKA "MCPO USN"] says: