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There has been much talk here about Chanda Chisala’s article “The IQ gap is no longer a black and white issue.” Much of the article focuses on the Igbo (known also as Ibo), a people who live in the Niger Delta and “are well known to be high academic achievers within Nigeria.” In the United Kingdom, their children do as well in school as Chinese and Indian students:

The superior Igbo achievement on GCSEs is not new and has been noted in studies that came before the recent media discovery of African performance. A 2007 report on “case study” model schools in Lambeth also included a rare disclosure of specified Igbo performance (recorded as Ibo in the table below) and it confirms that Igbos have been performing exceptionally well for a long time (5 + A*-C GCSEs); in fact, it is difficult to find a time when they ever performed below British whites. (Chisala, 2015)

The Igbo have long been known as achievers, particularly in business. Whereas trade is largely women’s work in the rest of West Africa, it is dominated by Igbo of both sexes in Nigeria.

[...] In study after study, it has been documented that the Ibo, through conflict and mobility, have been very successful in enterprise. Indeed, a major study argued that the Ibo have a very high need for achievement in the business world. Still another study showed that the majority of entrepreneurs in the sample were Ibo.(Butler, 1997, p. 178)

Sabino and Hall (1999) describe them as being “competitive, individualistic, status-conscious, antiauthoritarian, pragmatic, and practical—a people with a strongly developed commercial sense.” In colonial-era literature, they were often called “the Jews of West Africa” (see note).

Prehistory

How did the Igbo become so entrepreneurial? It’s possible that their location in the Niger Delta predisposed them to be go-betweens in trade between coastal and interior peoples. Similar assemblages of glass beads, many of Egyptian origin and dating to the 9th and 14th centuries, have been recovered from the Niger Delta and eastern Mali, indicating that the Niger acted as a conduit of trade from the Atlantic coast to the Sahel and thence to the Middle East (Davison,1972; Insoll and Shaw, 1997).

Archaeological sites in the Niger Delta show that advanced economic development began much earlier there than elsewhere in West Africa. This is seen in early use of metallurgy. At one metallurgical complex, dated to 765 BC, iron ore was smelted in furnaces measuring a meter wide. The molten slag was drained through conduits to pits, where it formed blocks weighing up to 43-47 kg. The operating temperatures are estimated to have varied between 1,155 and 1,450 degrees C (Holl, 2009). Some radiocarbon dates for iron smelting in this region go back to 2000 BC (Eze-Uzomaka, 2009).

This production seems to have been in excess of local needs and therefore driven by trade with other peoples:

One aspect which can be inferred from the cylindrical slag blocks left behind is that the Lejja smelters must have had excess production of iron, and this may have led to extensive trade to far and distant places, sustained over a long period of time. (Eze-Uzomaka, 2009)

This metallurgy is unusual not only in its early date for West Africa but also in its subsequent development, which reached a high level of sophistication despite a lack of borrowing from metallurgical traditions in the Middle East and Europe. This may be seen in more than 700 artefacts of bronze, copper, and iron recovered from the Igbo-Ukwu site and dated to the 9th century AD:

They are the oldest bronze artifacts known in West African and were manufactured centuries before the emergence of other known bronze producing centers such as those of Ife and Benin. The bronzes include numerous ritual vessels, pendants, crowns, breastplates, staff ornaments, swords, and fly-whisk handles.

The Igbo-Ukwu bronzes amazed the world with a very high level of technical and artistic proficiency and sophistication which was at this time distinctly more advanced than bronze casting in Europe.

[...] Apparently the metal workers of ancient Igbo-Ukwu were not aware of commonly used techniques such as wire making, soldering or riveting which suggests an independent development and long isolation of their metal working tradition.

[...] Some of the techniques used by the ancient smiths are not known to have been used outside Igbo-Ukwu such as the production of complex objects in stages with the different parts later fixed together by brazing or by casting linking sections to join them.(Wikipedia, 2015)

Contact with European traders

Thus, even before the first European contacts in the 16th century, the Igbo were already the focus of a network of trading relationships that extended outward from the Niger Delta. European traders became integrated into this trade network, thereby enabling the Igbo to emerge as valued middlemen in the slave trade:

The peoples of south-eastern Nigeria have been involved in trade for as long as there are any records. The archaeological sites at Igbo-Ukwu and other evidence reveal long distance trade in metal and beads, as well as regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads at an early date. The lower Niger River and its Delta featured prominently in this early trade, and evidence is offered to suggest a continuity in the basic modes of trade on the lower Niger from c. A.D. 1500 to the mid-nineteenth century. An attempt to sketch the basic economic institutions of the Igbo hinterland before the height of the slave trade stresses regional trading networks in salt, cloth, and metal, the use of currencies, and a nexus of religious and economic institutions and persons. It is argued that while the growth of the slave trade appears to have been handled without major changes in the overall patterns of trade along the lower Niger, in the Igbo hinterland a new marketing ‘grid’, dominated by the Arochuku traders, was created using the pre-existent regional trading networks and religious values as a base. (Northrop, 1972)

British colonial rule

Great Britain took over Nigeria initially as part of its effort to outlaw the slave trade. Lagos was annexed in 1861 and a sphere of influence over the country was recognized in 1885 at the Berlin Conference, although a protectorate would not be proclaimed until 1901.

This new political environment favored the Igbo, whose initiative, self-discipline, and future orientation predisposed them to succeed not only in their homeland but also elsewhere in Nigeria, where they soon became dominant as merchants and civil servants. They thus took on a role like that of middleman minorities elsewhere in the empire, such as the Parsis in western India, the Chinese in Malaya, and the South Asians in East Africa. By the 1930s, one Igbo boasted that “the Ibo domination of Nigeria is a matter of time” (Ibrahim, 2000, p. 56). This trend even affected the army. By independence, 24 of the 52 senior army officers of the rank of major and above were Igbos (Ibrahim, 2000,p. 55).

This dominance led to jealousy among Nigerians in the north and west, who accused the Igbo of unfair business practices:

In the private sector they [the Hausa Muslims] are open to the exploitation of the Ibo control of the modern sector of private business activities. Ibos fix prices unilaterally by which Hausa money is siphoned daily. The Hausa are reduced to utter poverty and a large percentage of them rendered street beggars. (quoted in Ibrahim, 2000, p. 52)

According to Arthur Nwankwo (1985:9) “Nigerians of all other ethnic groups will probably achieve consensus on no other matter than their common resentment of the Igbo”, a phenomenon that Chinua Achebe had dubbed “the Igbo problem”. They argue that the Igbos are more cosmopolitan, more adapted to other cultures, more individualistic and competitive, more receptive to change and more prone to settle and work in other parts of the country but the myth persists that they are aggressive, arrogant and clannish. (Ibrahim, 2000, p.55)

Independence, civil war, and the aftermath

Independence came to Nigeria in 1960, and with it growing disillusionment among many Igbo, particularly with the perceived instability and corruption of the political process. In 1966, Igbo officers staged a coup and seized control of the country, killing the prime minister and the premiers of the northern and western regions. Northern army officers then staged a countercoup, and Igbo began to flee northern cities in the wake of persecution.

The next year, in 1967, the Igbo seceded and formed their own country, the Republic of Biafra. They lost the ensuing civil war at the cost of a million civilian deaths and a devastated homeland. Nonetheless, they are today building on “the remarkable Igbo economic and commercial élan that has occurred since the end of the civil war” (Ibrahim, 2000, p. 56).

Yet mistrust remains: “the North and the West have a deep-seated mistrust of the Igbo and so are bent on restricting, containing, and denying the Igbo their political right. Added to this is their subtle message to other minority groups: the Igbo, as a group, are not to be trusted!” (Abidde, 2004). This mistrust is founded on a not unjustified perception that the Igbo will prevail on any level playing field:

Collectively, the Igbo are wealthy, educated, and intelligent. These are people with global influence, strength of character, élan and self confidence. The Igbo nation has attributes most other Nigerian nations can only dream of; and are what most other nations are not. The Igbo made and makes Nigeria better. Any wonder then that the Igbo can do without Nigeria; but Nigeria and her myriad nationalities cannot do without the Igbo? Take the Igbo out of the Nigeria equation, and Nigeria will be a wobbling giant gasping for air! (Abidde, 2004)

Today, there is growing recognition in Nigeria that the Igbo can and should be given more political and economic power, but there is still a fear that they will use such power selfishly and not for the good of all Nigerians.

Conclusion

Chanda Chisala uses the Igbo example to refute the “hereditarian-HBD” argument. In doing so, he comes closer to the HBD position than he may realize. Recent work on gene-culture coevolution has shown that the average mental makeup of human populations can change significantly over a short span of historical time. This notably seems to have happened with the Ashkenazi Jews and the English between the Middle Ages and the 19th century (Clark et al., 2007; Cochran et al., 2006).

Why couldn’t a similar process have happened with the Igbo? Why assume that sub-Saharan Africa is a monolith whose diverse populations have evolved in exactly the same way? We know that human genetic evolution didn’t slow down with the coming of culture. It actually sped up (Hawks et al., 2007). For the most part, we humans have diversified genetically in response to differences in cultural environment and not to differences in natural environment. It is therefore plausible that the different cultures of Africa have had different effects on the gene pools of their respective populations.

I can hear the answer to my question: “You guys are the ones who think all blacks are alike!” Well, that isn’t what I think.

On a final note, I couldn’t help noticing the many commenters who complimented Chanda on sticking it to the HBD crowd. Don’t they understand the logical contraposition? If it can be shown that some African groups have higher cognitive ability, doesn’t the converse become plausible and even expectable?

Note

It may be that a similar sort of nickname had evolved into the word “Igbo” itself: “[...] some Ibo claim that the word “Hebrew” must have been mutilated to “Ubru” or “Ibru,” then to “Uburu,” and later to “Ibo.”” (Butler, 1997, pp. 177-178). This is plausible, given that the Igbo initially had a weak sense of collective identity and may not have had a native name for themselves, thus inclining them to take a name given by outsiders. There are examples of this sort of thing elsewhere in Africa. The Tukulor of Senegal, for instance, were originally called the “two colors” by European travellers because some of them were light-skinned and others dark-skinned.

References

Abidde, S.O. (2004). The Nigerian Presidency and the Igbo Nation,Gamji
http://www.gamji.com/article3000/NEWS3755.htm

Butler, J.S. (1997). Why Booker T. Washington was right. A reconsideration of the economics of race,” in T.D. Boston (ed.) A Different Vision: African American economic thought, Volume 1, (pp. 174-193), Psychology Press
https://books.google.ca/books?id=WMwRwp9QImAC&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Chisala, C. (2015). The IQ gap is no longer a black and white issue,The Unz Review, June 25
http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/

Clark, G. (2007). A Farewell to Alms. A Brief Economic History of the World, Princeton University Press, Princeton and Oxford.

Cochran, G., J. Hardy, and H. Harpending. (2006). Natural history of Ashkenazi intelligence, Journal of Biosocial Science, 38, 659-693.
http://harpending.humanevo.utah.edu/trial.link/Ashkenazi.pdf

Davison, C.C. (1972). Glass beads in African archaeology: Results of neutron activation analysis, supplemented by results of X-ray fluorescence analysis, Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory, University of California
http://www.iaea.org/inis/collection/NCLCollectionStore/_Public/04/055/4055606.pdf

Eze-Uzomaka, P. (2009). Iron and its influence on the prehistoric site of Lejja, World of Iron Conference
https://www.academia.edu/4103707/Iron_and_its_influence_on_the_prehistoric_site_of_Lejja

Hawks, J., E.T. Wang, G.M. Cochran, H.C. Harpending, and R.K. Moyzis. (2007). Recent acceleration of human adaptive evolution,Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences U.S.A., 104, 20753-20758.
http://www.researchgate.net/publication/5761823_Recent_acceleration_of_human_adaptive_evolution/file/9c9605240c4bb57b55.pdf

Holl, A. F.C. (2009). Early West African Metallurgies: New Data and Old Orthodoxy, Journal of World Prehistory, 22, 415-438

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Augustin_Holl/publication/226180393_Early_West_African_Metallurgies_New_Data_and_Old_Orthodoxy/links/00b7d52d503ee77a4c000000.pdf

Ibrahim, J. (2000). The transformation of ethno-regional identities in Nigeria, in A. Jegga (ed.) Identity Transformation and Identity Politics Under Structural Adjustment in Nigeria, (pp. 41-61), Nordic Africa Institute.
https://books.google.ca/books?id=fUWLQv8-H70C&printsec=frontcover&hl=fr&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Insoll, T. and T. Shaw. (1997). Gao and Igbo-Ukwu: Beads, interregional trade, and beyond, African Archaeological Review, 14, 9-23
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02968364

Northrup, D. (1972). The growth of trade among the Igbo before 1880, The Journal of African History, 13,217-236.
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=3234276&fileId=S0021853700011439

Sabino, R. and J. Hall. (1999). The path not taken: Cultural identity in the interesting life of Olaudah Equiano, MELUS, 24, 5-19.

Wikipedia. (2015). Archaeology of Igbo-Ukwu
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

(Republished from Evo and Proud by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. 22pp22 says:

    Don’t trust GCSE’s. O-levels were entirely exam based and hard to falsify. GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.

    • Replies: @JayMan
    , @Stan D Mute
  2. 22pp22 says:

    Britain is sickeningly PC, which is why I left. My guess is schools grades generally don’t mean what they used to. You would expect students who do really well at school to do really well at college. In the UK, white improve their performance relative to other groups at college.

    http://www.theguardian.com/education/2014/mar/28/white-students-better-degrees-minorities-same-grades-universities

    Remember, at lot of students in London have access to outside tutoring on the Korean/Japanese model. If you introduce a large element of continuous assessment as opposed to exams, corruption will follow.

    • Replies: @anon
  3. Jefferson says:

    The Chinese invaders are the Jews of West Africa. I remember reading about Chinese construction companies building residential and commercial buildings in countries like Nigeria and Angola.

    • Replies: @dahoit
  4. hbd chick says: • Website

    @peter – “I can hear the answer to my question: ‘You guys are the ones who think all blacks are alike!’ Well, that isn’t what I think.”

    me, neither! i’ve been trying to tell people for a while now that there’s more to human biodiversity than just racial differences, but not everybody’s ready or willing to hear that, apparently. *sigh* there is a (rather large, unfortunately) subset of “hbd-ers” who are seriously confused.

    the igbo are also outbreeders (avoid cousin marriage), btw: fulani, hausa, igbo, and yoruba mating patterns (see also here).

    and another potential “jews of west africa” group appears to be the bamileke of cameroon. i’m not aware of any iq data on them, though.

  5. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @22pp22

    Remember, at lot of students in London have access to outside tutoring on the Korean/Japanese model.

    That’s one of the counter intuitive aspects of the UK stats. As the schools in the inner cities collapsed under the weight of a million languages the number of parents using private tutors shot up so some of the worst schools started to get the best grades. It’s all such a joke.

    That’s not to say the guy’s theory isn’t correct. I’ve known a fair few Nigerians who were noticeably bright sparks but I don’t know which tribe / nation they came from (apart from not Hausa).

  6. @hbd chick

    In Israel it is well known that inbreeding amongst ultra Orthodox Jews results in high rates of disability. By contrast the Ethiopian Jews have a traditional rule that consanguinity within about eight generations of cousinage is unacceptable. As it doesn’t seem to have done much to make them cognitively competitive I proffer the following speculation, namely that it often means scraping the bottle of the barrel to find a spouse????

    • Replies: @Pseudonymic Handle
  7. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    “Why couldn’t a similar process have happened with the Igbo? Why assume that sub-Saharan Africa is a monolith whose diverse populations have evolved in exactly the same way?”

    Same among Asiatics.

    Mongolians totally dominate Sumo in Japan even though the Mongolian population is a tiny fraction of that of Japan.

    http://www.japantimes.co.jp/sports/2015/01/29/sumo/hakuho-leads-sumos-mongolian-invasion/

  8. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    I’ve always argued for dividing black Africans into different races.

    Whites and Asians are both light-skinned and straight hair. But we see them as different races cuz of facial and physical differences.

    Nigerians and Ethiopians/Somalians both have black skin and nappy hair, but they differ strikingly in physicality and facial features.

    This applies to Bushmen and Pgymies too.

    My guess is Igbos in the West tend be better quality than Chinese in the West.

    Only relatively successful Igbos could prolly afford to move to the West whereas lots of second-rate Chinesefind their way to the West.

    • Replies: @SFG
  9. Chanda Chisala’s data points do not corroborate one another and in fact conflicts heavily. More damningly, he didn’t even bother to even convincingly fake some of the so-called “data”. For example Figure 6 has the Luganda’s passing at 75% in 2009, only to drop to 33% in 2010 and then rise back to 83% in 2011. Or the laughable 100% Igbo pass rate in 2009. Or the 0% for the Lingala in 2009 only to dramatically rise to 50% in 2010.

    Table 7 prepared by another black African has purported national averages that do not even match up with the Grauniad.

    Instead of posting questionable snippets of even more questionable data, you might as well go direct to the source.

    http://www.ukcat.ac.uk/App_Media/uploads/pdf/UKCAT%20Annual%20Report%20Final%20Low%20Res.pdf

    Standardized cognitive test administered annually to all medical students (not some dodgy power point put together in 5 minutes).

    Page 13

    UK White mean – 2737.96 with a standard deviation of 268.15
    UK Black mean – 2430.79

    Slightly more than a full standard deviation in cognitive means with a sufficiently representative national sample size.

    • Replies: @anon
  10. Truth says:

    Pete, you have some (mediocre) minds spinning unsure of which way to do damage control with this one.

    “So what do I believe? that all blacks are stupid, or that this ONE SMALL GROUP of blacks isn’t stupid?”

    “Which argument makes white people seem smarter?!?!?!” “Uhhhhhhhhhhhhh…”

  11. I’m ever wary of large edifices on small foundations. This 1973 article by Babatunde Lawal (http://www.jstor.org/stable/180773?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) casts what appear to be well-reasoned doubts on the 9th century radiocarbon-dating (a straightforward, free registration at JStor will yield the whole piece). The lack of more recent references to archaeological studies from these or other sites in the region suggest the state of knowledge hasn’t substantially progressed since the 1960s, but I stand ready to be corrected.

  12. 22pp22 says:
    @Truth

    I’ve never claimed to be the smartest bunny in the warren, but I do know that GCSE’s are rubbish and using them as a basis for research is questionable.

    Also, I have long come to the realisation that my own ethnic group is not the smartest and I accept that, but what is the alternative to HBD? An endless search for racism where there isn’t any?

    • Replies: @Truth
  13. 22pp22 says:
    @Truth

    And what makes you think you have such a brilliant mind? Look up allopatric speciation. Why doesn’t it apply to humans, just to molluscs? Very few HBDers claim whites are the smartest. Ashkenazi Jews have the highest measured IQ’s. Please explain to me how they have managed to win so many Nobel Prizes? This is a place where you come to get away from mindless virtue signalling.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  14. SFG says:

    Thank you, Dr. Frost. This is what HBD should be about–exploring human biodiversity, not rehashing 19th-century racial ideas. Of course it’s possible for different continents to have different mean IQs, and of course it’s possible for different groups within those continents to have different mean IQs as well!

  15. SFG says:
    @Anon

    There’s apparently more genetic diversity within Africa than outside it–the Khoi and San are apparently more distant from Bantu groups than the other groups of humanity are from each other.

    Race is a social construct in that where we draw the lines and call something a ‘race’ is our choice. It’s not a social construct in that different populations really do have different genetic distances and characterizations. You can call Swedes and Danes different races or different members of the same race, but they both have more in common with each other than they do with an Italian, and the Swede, Dane, and Italian all have more in common with each other than they do with someone from Zimbabwe.

    That said, when it comes to behavior you can have convergent evolution–Ashkenazim and Chinese have quite a bit in common despite being genetically quite distant, and are happy to marry each other at Harvard and raise brainy kids.

  16. Sabino and Hall (1999) describe them as being “competitive, individualistic, status-conscious, antiauthoritarian, pragmatic, and practical—a people with a strongly developed commercial sense.” In colonial-era literature, they were often called “the Jews of West Africa” (see note).

    Which note? Sabino and Hall? Could you give us some examples? Did these 18/19h century explorers or traders find any other evidences (forms of governance, architecture, technologies, written languages, domesticated animals, etc.) which distinguished the Igbo from the other natives?

  17. JayMan says: • Website
    @22pp22

    GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife.

    Well that explains the large shared environment component found in Plomin’s large twin study of it.

  18. Many things have been going on in the UK test system for about a decade now. Whenever UK data are mentioned to prove something either by some bloggers or academics, one needs to be very careful of their sources and sampling methodologies as the devil is in the detail. Panda can recall that several years ago some UK data also pointed out that the Somalis immigrants scored the the highest in UK schools, followed by Bangladeshies and Indians etc South Asians.

    James Thompson had some similar entries analising the data. Go check the comments there.

  19. @Wizard of Oz

    Ethiopian Jews are genetically ethiopian, so their cognitive and behavioural performance is what you would expect of ethiopians.

  20. syonredux says:
    @22pp22

    Very few HBDers claim whites are the smartest. Ashkenazi Jews have the highest measured IQ’s.

    Ashkenazi Jews.A perfect example of intra-racial variation.They have the highest mean IQs of any Caucasoid population.

  21. Bbc says:

    I remember reading comments on a Nigerian forum about which tribe has the most attractive men, and somebody said igbo men can’t be the most attractive because they have big heads compared to the other tribes.

  22. syonredux says:
    @SFG

    Ashkenazim and Chinese have quite a bit in common despite being genetically quite distant,

    On the other hand, they are also quite dissimilar in terms of behavioral metrics.Cf, for example, the dearth of Chinese stand-up comics….

    • Replies: @Anon
  23. Bbc says:

    Here are typical comments when people describe igbo

    from this thread.

    http://www.nairaland.com/29080/igbo-men-most-handsome-men

    “Igbo Men my assfine for where with those big ass head LMAO”

    “I will take a big head anyday than those massive eleven eleven tribal marks”

    “igbo guys can be cute,but their big head na wa.one thing i notice about igbo people, they like to claim every title,but when you want to talk about the onitsha drug dealing ,and 419 stuffs, they will be doing the blame [email protected] topic every tribe have their moment.”

  24. Bbc says:

    The different tribes of Nigeria.

    from this thread.
    Can You Tell A Nigerian By Their Face?

    http://www.nairaland.com/142474/tell-nigerian-face/1

    a comment.

    “from what i’ve seen

    Igbo- Big heads, dominate facial features, often lighter skinned then average west african, over dressed or well dressed, good looking, slim, mainly western attire in and out of nigeria, skin often has a bunch of different colors on different spots.

    yoruba- dark, round eyes large eyes, ugly lol

    hausa- tall dark, toned down facial features (smaller noses smaller eyes smaller lips), skin is usually 1 soild color all over, either really good looking are supremely ugly

    ogoni- SHORT, stalky, like shrunken igbo, HUGE heads, epically pushed back hair lines,

    that’s all i know.”

    So the traits that people often describe igbos by, is their big heads.

    • Replies: @Rodolfo
  25. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    Intra-racial variation in accomplishment is the very essence of HBD.Take, say, Western Europe.Is it just an undifferentiated mass? Hardly.Look at the the Iberian Peninsula.Compared to France, Italy, Germany, and Britain, it has not accomplished much in the arts and the sciences.

    Even Spain’s Golden Age was not all that golden when you compare it to what was going on in the rest of Western Europe.Spain from 1500-1650 was just keeping up (barely) with England, France, Italy, etc.Afterwards, it fell far behind ( cf Murray,Human Accomplishment, 338):

    Between 1650 and 1850-during the same two centuries when Britain, France, and Germany were producing hundreds of significant figures and even Italy in its decline produced several dozen-Spain produced a single major figure (Goya) and 11 significant figures.

    (Murray, Human Accomplishment , 338

    And look at the maps on pages 301-303 of Human Accomplishment.They show the origins of significant figures in the arts and the sciences from 1400 to 1950 in Europe.The Iberian Peninsula contributes very, very little.Compared to Western Europe’s big 4 (Britain, Italy, Germany, France), Iberia is quite third tier.

    • Replies: @Lot
  26. Many things have been going on in the UK test system for about a decade now.

    One might say ever since Tony Blair proclaimed that his government’s priorities were going to be ‘education, education, education,’ and he wanted over 50% of young people to go onto higher education.

    How have GCSE pass rates changed over the exams’ 25 year history?

    http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/sep/17/gcse-exams-replaced-ebacc-history-pass-rates

    When over 90% pass the exams, and 70% get a higher grade (A-C), it should be obvious that their utility in intelligence stratification is limited.

  27. Bbc says:

    Another way to study the stereotypes about African tribes is to types on the google the name of the tribe and see the auto complete.

    for instance, for Zulus.

    If I write Zulus are: the google auto complete gives.
    Zulus are stupid
    Zulus are violent
    Zulus are lazy

    for xhosas
    xhosas are liers
    xhosas are arrogant
    xhosas are clever

    for tutsis
    Tutsis are beautiful

    for Hutus
    Hutus are evil

    for igbos

    igbos are hebrews
    igbos are Israelites
    igbos are the richest in nigeria
    igbos are light skin
    igbos are mixed
    igbos are most achievers in africa
    igbos are cannibals
    igbos are hated

    for yorubas
    yorubas are the problem with nigeria
    yorubas are traitors
    yorubas are dirty
    yorubas are cowards
    yorubas are ugly
    yorubas are trabalistic
    yorubas are Israelites
    yorubas are ungrateful

    somalis
    Somalis are stupid
    Somalis are ugly
    somals are animals
    Somalis are arabs

  28. Truth says:
    @22pp22

    My friend you must look at the larger picture: HBD explains that Africans (from Africa) have an IQ of 70 (or maybe now, 80) if “you” are honest about your own studies; most of “you” aren’t), whites 100 (it is for Brits the test is normed) “elite” Asians, 105, and Ashkenazi 110-115.

    If these numbers are mutable, YOU DO NOT HAVE HUMAN BIODIVERSITY you have “human lottodiversity” The entire point is that these numbers, no matter what you do, cannot be changed at all (or, again if you are an “honest” component of HBD, maybe 5%.)

    Now, here is a tribe, in Africa, as dark as any other tribe, that looks, roughly like any other West African tribe, that seems to invalidate this research. Why? That’s not possible, all those Ni-…er…blacks are all built of the same stuff?!?!

    Therefore one of two conclusions must be drawn

    1. Intellect is mutable if the proper conditions are met (and this must not be hard if they were met organically without the intervention of white scientists.)
    2. The numbers are wrong and somehow Igbo intellect is mis-measured.
    3. The entire theory of HBD must be called into question.

    And let’s say it’s 3; then maybe you have to think (as many Africans and African-Americans do) that if IQ is upwardly mutable, then maybe it is downwardly mutable as well, and there is a conspiracy (!)

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @anon
    , @22pp22
  29. Stealth says:
    @Truth

    As long as I’ve been keeping up with this topic, HBD believers have acknowledged variation within races. The Germans, Danes and Dutch, for instance, are thought to be smarter and more organized than other European nationalities. It is famously recognized by HBD types that Ashkenazi Jews are a step ahead of surrounding populations, and no one denies that highly intelligent people can come from any racial background. So why is this example of the Igbo thought to debunk the idea that intelligence is hereditary?

  30. Svigor says:

    They have the highest mean IQs of any Caucasoid population.

    I think Episcopalians have them whipped.

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Hibernian
  31. Don’t trust GCSE’s. O-levels were entirely exam based and hard to falsify. GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife.

    Like IQ tests, these are all proxies for the genetic component of intelligence. We forget that IQ is only partly genetic, perhaps 50 to 80% depending on the age group or the uniformity of the testing. The GCSE has a smaller genetic component, and in some ways a different genetic component. It largely measures diligence and willingness to do your assignments on time.

    But there clearly is a pattern, despite the noise in the data.

    me, neither! i’ve been trying to tell people for a while now that there’s more to human biodiversity than just racial differences

    Human biodiversity is ubiquitous. It’s not just that we see statistical differences in mental traits between relatively small populations (which sometimes have no sense of having separate ethnic identities). We also see differences over time within the same population. I agree with Gregory Clark that the English of the 19th century had become genetically different through a process of selection over the previous eight centuries. Evolution can proceed quite fast if the selection pressure is strong enough.

    Chanda Chisala’s data points do not corroborate one another and in fact conflicts heavily. More damningly, he didn’t even bother to even convincingly fake some of the so-called “data”. For example Figure 6 has the Luganda’s passing at 75% in 2009, only to drop to 33% in 2010 and then rise back to 83% in 2011. Or the laughable 100% Igbo pass rate in 2009. Or the 0% for the Lingala in 2009 only to dramatically rise to 50% in 2010.

    I see that as evidence that he didn’t fake his data. I would expect to see a lot of noise in this kind of evidence because the genetic component is probably smaller than the environmental component. I’ve seen fake data, and it generally looks too “correct.”

    Pete, you have some (mediocre) minds spinning unsure of which way to do damage control with this one.

    A lot of people see this as a kind of hockey game (or soccer game?) where you’re supposed to cheer for the home team.

    This 1973 article by Babatunde Lawal (http://www.jstor.org/stable/180773?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) casts what appear to be well-reasoned doubts on the 9th century radiocarbon-dating (a straightforward, free registration at JStor will yield the whole piece). The lack of more recent references to archaeological studies from these or other sites in the region suggest the state of knowledge hasn’t substantially progressed since the 1960s, but I stand ready to be corrected.

    There were two other studies from the 1980s (with three new radiocarbon dates) which confirmed the 9th century estimate. In any case, the Igbo-Ukwu finds are clearly pre-contact. The later dates from the 14th century simply confirm that the site was continuously occupied over a long time.

    For a review of the literature, go to:

    http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Christopher_Decorse/publication/275656506_Beads_as_Chronological_Indicators_in_West_African_Archaeology/links/554397f10cf234bdb21bd2cb.pdf

    Which note? Sabino and Hall? Could you give us some examples?

    The note is at the end of my article. Examples are numerous:

    “All over Nigeria, Ibos filled urban jobs at every level far out of proportion to their numbers, as laborers and domestic servants, as bureaucrats, corporate managers, and technicians. Two-thirds of the senior jobs in the Nigerian Railway Corporation were held by Ibos. Three-quarters of Nigeria’s diplomats came from the Eastern Region. So did almost half of the 4,500 students graduating from Nigerian universities in 1966. The Ibos became known as the “Jews of Africa,” despised-and envied-for their achievements and acquisitiveness. Inevitably, ethnic tensions mounted. Competition for political offices and job promotions routinely degenerated into tribal rivalry. Nigeria was smoldering.”

    http://archive.wilsonquarterly.com/sites/default/files/articles/WQ_VOL4_W_1980_Article_01_2.pdf

    Even Henry Kissinger made this comparison back in the 1960s:

    “The Ibos are the wandering Jews of West Africa — gifted, aggressive, Westernized; at best envied and resented, but mostly despised by the mass of their neighbors in the Federation.”

    He also attributed the Nigerian civil war to the Igbo coup d’état the year before:

    “The civil war is rooted in the failure of the first generation of British-tutored politicians to make something of independence and unity. While London and Washington poured in money and high expectations, corruption grew apace and decisions were drained of content by the tribal bickering that lay behind the facade of national parties. In one sense the first coup in 1966 was a classic effort by young officers to set things right. But they were also eastern Ibos who murdered with ritual flair a northern Hausa Prime Minister along with the Premiers of the Northern and Western States.”

    http://2001-2009.state.gov/r/pa/ho/frus/nixon/e5/55258.htm

  32. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    The entire point is that these numbers, no matter what you do, cannot be changed at all

    Sure they can.Here’s a nice article by Cochran on the Breeders’ Equation:

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/the-breeders-equation/

    Races are not Platonic essences.They are plastic, mutable.

  33. Realist says:
    @Peter Frost

    ” I would expect to see a lot of noise in this kind of evidence because the genetic component is probably smaller than the environmental component.”

    There it is….the liberal position on IQ. Racial differences in IQ don’t exist….more head start.

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  34. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @syonredux

    “Cf, for example, the dearth of Chinese stand-up comics….”

    Too busy being flip flip comics. Look at Jackie Chan.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  35. @Pseudonymic Handle

    The average Ethiopian is far smarter than the average westerner, based on my personal observation. There are no welfare programs in Ethiopia, so they have to hustle to survive, which sharpens the intellect. They do better in western societies where they have open access to education and job or entreprenurial opportunities. That is not the situation in Israel, regrettably

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  36. syonredux says:
    @Anon

    “Cf, for example, the dearth of Chinese stand-up comics….”

    Too busy being flip flip comics. Look at Jackie Chan.

    Lots of his stuff was lifted from Anglo Silent Film comics: Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, Harold Lloyd

  37. syonredux says:
    @Svigor

    They have the highest mean IQs of any Caucasoid population.

    I think Episcopalians have them whipped.

    The two groups do overlap on a lot of metrics:

    http://anepigone.blogspot.com/2008/12/inductivist-reaffirms-utility-of-gss.html

    http://scienceblogs.com/gnxp/2008/02/21/pentecostals-are-stupid-unitar/

  38. @Peter Frost

    Fake data created by people who at least semi-know what they are doing looks too neat. Fake data by completely clueless people look like this. You do not get a 0% GCSE pass rate in one year and a 50% the next because of statistical noise. It is either because your sample size is 2 people or you are just making figures up out of thin air.

    Furthermore as others have noted, the GCSE has been heavily diluted to the point where its predictive usefulness has been obliterated. The UK CAT summary I linked to also has a new Situational Judgement Test (SJT) component that was added post 2012 in addition to the standard cognitive test. The SJT (aka the Social Justice Test) component of any test is in it’s primary purpose designed to show reduced levels disparate impact. This feature not bug is intended to to obfuscate by pretending subjective surveys (nice guy, team player) are objective data.

    By the way, here is a hilarious take on the UK CAT SJT.

    http://captiongenerator.com/2720/SJT-Hitler-2

    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
  39. Thank you Peter Frost. We don’t need any more ideologues believing in simple answers to complex questions by the mean spirited racists or the equally ridiculous “anti-hereditarians”.

    I am grateful that there are some bloggers that address these sensitive issues with a scholarly minded approach.

  40. Qasim says:

    I had left a similar comment on the Chisala article, but thought it might be useful to again note the recent post by Razib Khan which discussed genetic evidence of Nigerians having some DNA from Eurasian pastoralists that interbred with the local population thousands of years ago.

    Igbo often have skin tones and eye colors that are significantly lighter than the typical West African (for example see Andre Iguodala).

    It would seem that if genetic analysis shows that if the Igbo indeed do have more Eurasian DNA than other West Africans, their high achievement will end up supporting the hereditarian view rather than weakening it.

    • Replies: @Bbc
    , @Enrique Cardova
  41. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Duke of Qin

    Standardized cognitive test administered annually to all medical students

    That’s what you have to do with UK stats – find a piece important enough to not be faked.

  42. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth

    The entire point is that these numbers, no matter what you do, cannot be changed at all…

    That’s not the entire point – although admittedly it is for some.

    The point is these things are immutable in one generation. They are entirely mutable over multiple generations and clearly have been.

    • Replies: @Truth
  43. Truth says:

    Nigerians having some DNA from Eurasian pastoralists that interbred with the local population thousands of years ago.

    “Wow, I could have never seen this one coming…”

    Sincerely;

    No one, EVER!

  44. Vendetta says:

    Real pity everyone sided with Nigeria back against Biafra. Igbo industriousness and intelligence plus oil wealth would almost surely have made it the most prosperous black state in Africa. It’s important to read beyond compilations of exam scores as well to get an understanding of them. There’s some good accounts of the Biafran War out there about the besieged Igbos rigging up makeshift generators and refineries out in the jungle once the cities had been bombed. They are resourceful people who make things happen.

    I’d also be skeptical of your “weak community identity” theory. They do seem to be a people of large extended clan families, and the sheer degree of sacrifice they were willing to put themselves through in the Biafran war seem to indicate otherwise.

    I’m almost reminded of the Japanese, actually, in how they fought a hopeless war to the bitter end and then just put it behind them and moved on after they lost so grievously. The atrocities the Nigerians carried out against the Igbos are orders of magnitude worse than those that say, the Israelis and Palestinians ever inflicted on one another. Yet there’s been no Igbo insurgency, no die-hard hatred of the rest of Nigeria, and trying to secede again remains a fringe idea among them. Even Ojukwu, the leader of the rebellion, returned from exile to Nigerian politics a couple decades later. The lack of bitterness is remarkable. If a group of people anywhere in the 20th century deserved their independence, it was the Igbo.

    One final question: every Boko Haram explanation I’ve seen insists upon the dispossession of Nigerian Muslims from politics and the economy as a reason for the movement’s appeal. But the Igbos too are dispossessed and excluded, so who the Hell actually is running Nigeria? The Yoruba and the minor tribes? Or are the Hausa-Fulani Muslims elites still running the place but simply leaving their own people out to dry?

    • Replies: @Simon in London
  45. Is Frost trying to leap from a comparison of the behaviors of Igbo and a name attached to them in the colonial era as being “the Jews of West Africa” to a genetic relationship to “Jews” that is responsible for that behavior?

    Yuri Slezkine opened his work, The Jewish Century with the

    “bold declaration: The Modern Age is the Jewish Age–and we are all, to varying degrees, Jews.

    The assertion is, of course, metaphorical. “

    Slezkine describes the “Mercurian” behavior characteristics of Jews, and notes that such behaviors are also found among other peoples who carried out similar functions in societies different from their own. In fact, one of the essential characteristics of a Mercurian was alien-ness from the culture in which it operated, a condition necessitated by the disruptive nature of the activities carried out in an otherwise settled community.

    So, which came first, the Mercurian or the Jew?

    • Replies: @anon
  46. Vendetta says:
    @James ben Goy

    Ethiopia has a very long and comparatively glorious history as an empire on a continent predominated by tribal peoples. They defeated the Italians the first time around because they were organized enough to field a 100,000 man army (compare that to the few thousands the Zulu fought with) and because they had adopted firearms en masse.

    Calling Italy vs Ethiopia round two “tanks against spears” is as misleading as calling Germany vs Poland “tanks against lances.” The peasant levies fought with spears, but the royal army was, as it was at Adowa, an army of riflemen. The problem was that it was an army of riflemen who fought in conventional warfare against an army with machine guns, motorized columns, artillery, and air support. If you want to see spears against machine guns, look at 20,000 Sudanese Mahdists getting themselves slaughtered by the British at Omdurman instead.

    I would be willing to bet the Ethiopians, or the Amhara at least, are on the high end of the continent cognitively; I think the present day impoverishment of the country has much more to do with geopolitical factors than a lack of cognitive capability. The country has been all but landlocked for more than a century, it’s overpopulated, the climate has been unkind to it, and it’s a multi-ethnic country.

    In fact, you won’t find any other place in the world today that more closely resembles the Austro-Hungarian Empire in terms of ethnic divisions than Ethiopia. The Amhara, the ancient Ethiopians, are one among several large tribes that also include the Oromo, the Tigray, and the Somalis. The country’s been bogged down over the last half century with a decades-long Eritrean insurgency, drought-induced famine, and disastrous misrule under Mengistu’s communist Derg.

  47. Stogumber says:

    Abidde: “Take the Igbo out of the Nigeria equation, and Nigeria will be a wobbling giant gasping for air!”
    Reminds to me Hugo Bettauer’s novel “City without Jews” 1922 (and the following movie) which pretended that Vienna (or any other German city) without Jews would be a complete failure.
    This kind of boastful prophecies are nearly always wrong. When Jews were expelled actually, their positions in business, finance, technology or administration were rather successfully taken over by non-Jews – and German “Wirtschaftswunder” thereafter happened nearly without Jews. (Ironically, Jews were mostly missed in popular entertainment, but even here they were replaced on the long run.)
    Moreover, “without me, you are nothing” is a message which is hardly ever received with gratitude; more often the receiver will be incited to show that he is quite well something without the sender. Take feminism: A woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  48. Truth says:

    I would be willing to bet the Ethiopians, or the Amhara at least, are on the high end of the continent cognitively;

    I win.

    No, according to your own geniuses, the “Africans with the white admixture” are actually quite stupid:

    http://www.tesfanews.net/average-iq-rank-ethiopia-second-dumbest/

    Double or nothing?

    • Replies: @Vendetta
  49. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    Igbos be smartest blacks but blacks hate them.

    Shoo. It’s like blacks in America give blacks who ‘act white’ a hard time.

  50. Jm8 says:

    Some other tribes in West Africa, notably the Yoruba also had relatively advanced cultures with sophisticated bronze work(contemporary to the Igbo.)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ife

    https://www.google.com/search?q=ife+art&biw=1198&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=apiZVaC6Jsi2-AH30oDoCw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ

  51. Bbc says:
    @Qasim

    The tribes with Eurasian ancestry are the northern Muslims groups currently terrorizing Nigeria with boko haram, like Fulani, kanuri, shuwa Arabs and Tuaregs.

    I’ve not seen any study showing igboz to be mixed with non Africans.

  52. Jack says: • Website

    Had the Igbos , not lost the Nigerian civil war. . . Biafra would have been great. . .

  53. @SFG

    SFG wrote, “Ashkenazim and Chinese have quite a bit in common despite being genetically quite distant”.

    You’ll be surprised. Some of the more easterly Ashkenazim inherited a South Chinese maternal haplogroup called M33c2:

    “The Chinese Lady Who Joined the Ashkenazic People” in Jewish Times Asia, March 2015, page 19

    http://issuu.com/jewishtimesasia/docs/mar2015/19

    Some Ashkenazim show Chinese admixture in Eurogenes’s autosomal DNA calculators:

    “East/Northeast Asian Admixture in Ashkenazic Jews”

    http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/aj-east-asian-admixture.html

    Admittedly, only some Ashkenazim have inherited any Chinese DNA or traits, and of those who did it represents a small proportion of their total genetics.

  54. If these numbers are mutable, YOU DO NOT HAVE HUMAN BIODIVERSITY you have “human lottodiversity” The entire point is that these numbers, no matter what you do, cannot be changed at all

    They are mutable, in the sense that the average mental makeup of a population can change over short spans of historic time. This is one of the key points of HBD writers like Greg Cochran, John Hawks, and Gregory Clark. There is no reason to believe that the Igbo have been shackled to an unchanging Africa-wide mean IQ. With sufficiently strong selection, their mean IQ would have steadily risen from one generation to the next.

    Truth, you’ve been commenting on these blogs for some time now. How is it that you have such a flawed understanding of HBD? At the very least, you must have read the Conclusion of my article.

    The average Ethiopian is far smarter than the average westerner, based on my personal observation. There are no welfare programs in Ethiopia, so they have to hustle to survive, which sharpens the intellect.

    In Ethiopia, layabouts sponge off their wives and other family members. It doesn’t really pay to be successful in Ethiopia because everybody and his cousin will descend on you like a plague of locusts.

    Welfare programs are relatively recent in Western countries, essentially postwar (there was “relief” during the Great Depression, but it was a pittance). I believe in fast evolution but you’re pushing things a bit.

    It would seem that if genetic analysis shows that if the Igbo indeed do have more Eurasian DNA than other West Africans

    I would be very surprised if the Igbo have more Eurasian admixture than other Nigerians. The data I’ve seen show the highest admixture in the north of the country, among the Hausa and the Fulani. The latter in particular are often very North African in appearance.
    You’re taking us back to Truth’s vision of HBD, i.e., there are only three or four races, and everything is a permutation of those basic races.

    I’d also be skeptical of your “weak community identity” theory.

    Igbos originally had a weak sense of collective identity as Igbos. That’s something that developed as they emigrated into non-Igbo areas. Even today, they think more in terms of family or lineage than ethnic identity.

    One final question: every Boko Haram explanation I’ve seen insists upon the dispossession of Nigerian Muslims from politics and the economy as a reason for the movement’s appeal.

    That’s utter nonsense. Muslims are very dominant in Nigerian politics. As for the economy, most Muslim Nigerians simply don’t think in terms of entrepreneurship. They don’t see wealth as something to be created, but rather as something to be transferred.

    Is Frost trying to leap from a comparison of the behaviors of Igbo and a name attached to them in the colonial era as being “the Jews of West Africa” to a genetic relationship to “Jews” that is responsible for that behavior?

    Please call me “Peter.” I’m not sure I fully understand your question. I’m not saying that the Igbo have Jewish ancestry. Nor am I saying their history is completely analogous to that of the Jewish people. It looks like they initially developed as a trade-oriented people within their homeland in the Niger Delta. This situation favored individuals who had certain mental traits: future time orientation, sense of initiative, ability to budget resources over space and time, transactional and symbolic thinking, etc.

    With the arrival of colonialism, it became possible for them to migrate into non-Igbo territories, where the advantages of this mental package were greatly magnified. They were able to dominate any niche that required higher cognitive abilities.

    “without me, you are nothing” is a message which is hardly ever received with gratitude

    I agree. Most Igbo keep a low profile because they are afraid of hostility from the non-Igbo majority. There are also lingering memories of the Igbo coup d’état that precipitated the Nigerian Civil War. But what else is there for Nigeria? If the Igbo won’t become the economic elite, who will? The Hausa? That will take several generations of cultural and genetic change. Unfortunately, Nigeria needs economic leadership now.

    • Replies: @Truth
    , @Qasim
  55. L says:

    The etymology suggested for “Toucouleur” is certainly wrong. This Fulani ethnic group was already called “Takruur” in Arabic by the 11th century, a time when no Europeans had yet visited Senegal; the transcription with “couleur” is just a French reinterpretation of the sound in terms of more familiar words. For details on this name’s history, see ‘Umar Al-Naqar, Takrur the History of a Name, Journal of African History Vol. 10, No. 3 (1969), pp. 365-374. The etymology deriving Igbo from Hebrew, I would add, looks no more credible, and is probably wishful thinking on Igbos’ part.

  56. 22pp22 says:
    @Truth

    Of course, they’re downwardly mutable, as well. If the HBD theory must be called into question, then so be it, but there is an awful lot of data to back it up and very little to discredit it. This is one of the best attempts I’ve seen so far, but it should be subject to the same process of verification as everything else. Really this should be done in a proper academic setting, but we live in a hysterical world of virtue signallers screamng waycist. Look what happened to Jason Richwine.

  57. @Realist

    Is that some kind of off the cuff attempt at satire? You don’t intend to say, do you, that any really says that environment sometimes being a bigger factor than genes means that there are no “racial” differences in mental characteristics?

    • Replies: @Realist
  58. Dipwill says:

    Your historical framing is very inaccurate with the Igbo having been notably more advanced. Regardless if they engaged in metal smelting earlier and such, the Igbo’s history of urbanization and state building is far less than many other Nigerian and West African groups. The Igbo, before colonialism, were overwhelmingly, if not entirely rural, most of them living in communal villages, and Igbo-Ukwu had been abandoned for centuries. The Yoruba, Benin, Hausa, Kanuri, Nupe, and many others were all urbanized in some degree, and the Yoruba and Benin also had a far greater artistic output than the Igbo. The Yoruba, in the city-state of Ile Ife, created what are the most advanced pre-colonial pieces of african art, with some of the intact figures compared to Greco-Roman realist art, and both the Yoruba and Edo (Benin) created massive earthworks like the Benin Iya and Sungbo’s Eredo (along with many of their cities being walled). Other parts of coastal west africa, largely untouched by muslim contact, were also more developed than the Igbo, such as the Akan people. And again with the Edo, it appears they manufactured their own firearms: https://web.archive.org/web/20130703131027/http://wysinger.homestead.com/beninwarriors.html

    “The kings of Benin during the 18th century and 19th century were conscious of their dependency on European firearms. This compelled Oba Akengbuda (ruled 1750-1804) to encourage local production of light firearms, muskets and flintlock hand-guns. The Oba organized the guild of blacksmiths (Igun Ematon), specialists in iron-casting, by creating a new quarter at Igun n’Ugboha (Plankensteiner 2007: 80). ”

    The Yoruba were also still building their own cities into the 19th century- here is a rare illustration of Ibadan, one built during that time: http://ryfigueroa.blogspot.com/2014/07/ibadan-in-19th-century.html

    And while I don’t have many citations offhand, it appears heavy urbanization in sahel west africa likely predates muslim contact (ignore the ridiculous title): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b9LkpJdll9A

    I do think it’s likely the case the Igbo are more intelligent. Carl Coon, Carleton Coon’s son, claimed that his father alluded to the Igbo having large cranial capacities: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Carleton_S._Coon#Coon_was_not_a_racist_in_the_pejorative_sense

    “I am quite confident, on the basis of my recollection of my discussions with him, that he did not mean to include all negroes, or Congoids, or sub-Saharan Africans, as a blanket category incapable of producing superior minds. Africa being the cradle, there is probably at least as much racial variation within the region as outside it, and generalizations about race within the region always troubled him. (I recall his commenting on the large cranial capacity of the Ibo, for example).”

    Though on the other hand, a recent examination of cranial capacity among 3 Nigerian groups (the Igbo, Urhobo and Edo, conducted by Nigerian researchers) did not find the Igbo to have the largest size, being in between the Urhobo and Edo: http://www.ijmhpr.com/article/ESTIMATION%20OF%20CRANIAL%20CAPACITY%20OF%20STUDENTS%20OF%20NNAMDI%20AZIKIWE_UNIVERSITY%20NNEWI%20CAMPUS%20ANAMBRA_STATE%20NIGERIA.pdf

    • Replies: @Agubata
  59. Realist says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    “Is that some kind of off the cuff attempt at satire?”

    No! Libs want to believe that most IQ differences are nurture not nature. The equality crap.

  60. @SFG

    SFG says:
    There’s apparently more genetic diversity within Africa than outside it–the Khoi and San are apparently more distant from Bantu groups than the other groups of humanity are from each other.

    Indeed. Africa has more diversity within as dental, skin color, cranial, and DNA studies show. This is expected as Africa is where anatomically modern humans originated. Not sure though that Khoi or San are more distant from Bantu than say Swedes.

    .
    Race is a social construct in that where we draw the lines and call something a ‘race’ is our choice. It’s not a social construct in that different populations really do have different genetic distances and characterizations.

    But the process and methods of defining genetic distances and characterizations is itself influenced by social constructs. Sampling for example can be and has been often manipulated to lend a scientific gloss to desired social constructs. Hence in Africa, some DNA studies exclude “the wrong type” of African to create a “Caucasoid” social construct. Others downplay the diversity of Africans and define a narrow, stereotyped “true Negro” – against which everything else can be split off and grouped into another “racial” category. One study for example use one individual from Uganda to stand in as “representative” of all sub-Saharan Africans, but used a broad dataset for Europeans.

    The same thing happens with cranio-skeletal studies. Scholars note how time after time for example, specimens with what seem to be “negro affinities” in the Nile Valley have been re-classified as “Mediterranean” or something else, thus making them conveniently vanish from the published reports. (Kittles and Keita 1997) Likewise the widely used CRANID database is heavily weighted with samples from cemeteries in the far north of Egypt near the Mediterranean as “representative” of Egyptians, but downplays samples from the historic tropical south, from whence the Dynasties sprang (Kemp 2005).

    Some DNA studies do not let the data speak for themselves, but define the racial constructs IN ADVANCE, then plug data into the pre-set pigeonholes, again presenting seeming scientific objectivity but in reality, manipulating the outcomes to fit whatever agenda is desired at the moment. Such problems are specifically mentioned in the current scientific literature, (Armelagos 2001) and are current problems, not way back in the 19th century. Its not simply anonymous bloggers somewhere pointing them out.

  61. @FirkinRidiculous

    This 1973 article by Babatunde Lawal (http://www.jstor.org/stable/180773?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents) casts what appear to be well-reasoned doubts on the 9th century radiocarbon-dating (

    The 9th century dates on the actual site are under debate, but as Peter points out above, metallurgy in the surrounding region has been around since that time, and even before. See Lejja for example. And you mention a 1973 article but there are others much more recent. Craddock 1997 et al (Metal Sources and the Bronzes from Igbo-Ukwu, Nigeria) for example also show regional metal work long in place, and the indigenous origin of the Igbo bronzes. As far as metal work in the general area, it is old news.

    Sabino and Hall? Could you give us some examples? Did these 18/19h century explorers or traders find any other evidences (forms of governance, architecture, technologies, written languages, domesticated animals, etc.) which distinguished the Igbo from the other natives?

    Obviously the explorers or traders must have found distinguishing characteristics. They mention the wide span of Igbo trading activity for example, and the tight, intense trading networks and to that end that exploited the waterways. Almost every history of the Igbo mentions such things. This tight organization gave them a competitive advantage over other ethnic rivals. The Igbo even combined their trading with religion, something that would be familiar to certain European ethnic groups.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  62. duderino says:

    If Igbos immigrated to a U.S urban area in mass, I believe they could be successful. If you can make it in Nigeria, you can make it anywhere right? It would be interesting to see if they intermarry with other Igbos, or assimilate in with other African Americans.

    • Replies: @Agubata
  63. Agubata says:
    @Dipwill

    The Igbo Nri civilization came into fore during the 9th centruy AD whereas the first Yoruba civilization, Ife, came into fore by the 12th century. Igbos produced art works that are said to be far superior to those produced by the Yoruba and comparable with the those of Europe at the time of their discovery. Majority of Igbo-ukwu artworks were taken away to Britain where they are currently are now. Tests and inspection of these works show a very high degree of sophistication and precision. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

    Just like the Egyptians, ancient Igbos built pyramids, very similar to the Steppe Pyramids of Egypt. https://udumakalu.wordpress.com/2014/05/04/archaeologists-discover-pyramids-in-igboland/

    However, ancient Igbos hardly built cities as they dwelt in family units made into villages and named after their founding ancestor, for example, umuchima meaning ‘umu’ or descendants and ‘chima’ being a male Igbo name for their ancestor. The Igbos are republican by nature and barely had kings – for they believed that everyone is equal with no man greater than the other, with each village ruled by a council of elders, and each elder representing a family unit or ‘ogbe’ within the village, with meetings where every elder gathered to deliberate on issues affecting the people – a similar model practised in the United Kingdom where they have a parliamentary system and no president. The prime minister is only but a ceremonial head.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  64. Dipwill says:
    @Enrique Cardova

    But aside from that, I don’t think they had much else, definitely not distinguishing architecture and technology. I think it’s really a stretch to consider the Igbo as exemplary because of their trading abilities, especially when they were completely illiterate. They had virtually no cities, which most other Nigerian groups had (and by extension, likely had less advanced government), and the Nok people, who produced Nigeria’s earliest advanced artwork, were not ancestral to the Igbo.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
  65. RW says:

    I would think an interesting question would be how large the population of the Igbo and other such highly intelligent tribes (Yoruba?) there are in Africa as a percentage of the entire sub-saharan population. The smart fraction theory argues only a minimal number of smart people is needed to grow an economy. (Though a willingness to do so without risking the ire of surrounding populations is also important.) From Wikipedia:

    “The official data on the population of ethnic groups in Nigeria continues to be controversial as a minority of these groups have claimed that the government deliberately deflates the official population of one group, to give the other numerical superiority.[160][161][162] The CIA World Factbook puts the Igbo population of Nigeria at 18% of a total population of 177 million, or approximately 32 million people.”

  66. Agubata says:

    Need I forget that Nollywood, Nigeria’s movie industry, 2nd in the world in gross number of movies produced annually and 3rd in terms of gross revenue was started and owned by the Igbos of South East Nigeria? The culture portrayed in Nollywood movies, majority of the actors, the Nigerian language often spoken are Igbo. This movie industry was started in just the 80s, a time before which the Yorubas had begun their movie industry as far back as the 60s. By early 2000s, the Igbo movie industry or Nollywood, had overtaken not just the Yorubas’ but the entire Africa’s to become worlds number 2 and 3 in terms of gross volume of movies and gross annual revenues respectively. This was made possible by the Igbo entrepreneurial spirit, drive for success, perseverance, intelligence, focus and dedication.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_Nigeria

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/26/magazine/nollywood-movies.html

  67. Dipwill says:
    @Agubata

    I think I’ve heard of Igbo art back then being comparable to European equivalents, but to say they were more advanced than the art of Ile Ife, I disagree. The realism and portraiture of Ife art is unique in Africa and without any true comparison. And the Igbo pyramids are, well, not even within miles of the Egyptian pyramids. Seriously.

    • Replies: @Agubata
  68. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    It seems to me long-term mercantile minorities – if they can remain mostly endogamous – are likely to have a mean IQ slightly higher than the background population.

    If the background population was mean 70 then they might be mean 85.
    If the background population was mean 85 then they might be mean 100.
    If the background population was mean 100 then they might be mean 115.

    (They don’t even need to be fully endogamous as long as they only marry people on the right half of the bell curve of the base population.)

    (In fact if they only married people on the right half of the bell curve of the base population they could get it that way.)

    All you have to do is only marry for brains and not a mixture of brains and looks.

  69. Agubata says:
    @duderino

    If they assimilate, they may lose the cultural drive and values that are focal to the Igbo success in the first place. Truth be told, African Americans don’t share the same spirit and drive as the Igbos and the cultural difference is stark wide apart. There is also that risk if losing your half Igbo half AA child to the American culture or the child not wanting to go back home in Nigeria. For this reason, Nigerians (or Igbos) hardly marry outside their ethnic tribe and would always prefer to marry within themselves, such that other immigrant blacks in the US know Nigerians for not marrying outside their people.

    There have been a few Igbos marrying outside the Igbo group, just as it always is amongst every group on earth, however an overwhelming majority of 95% marry within the Igbo ethnic group.

    The chances of Igbo marrying en masse with African Americans isn’t that much possible to be expected soonest.

  70. @hbd chick

    hbdchick says
    i’ve been trying to tell people for a while now that there’s more to human biodiversity than just racial differences,

    True enough, though racial differences are at the core of HBD. They are the foundation. Without a racial enemy or “Other” to sneer at, rail against, or contrast invidiously, HBD as an ideological project essentially, falls apart.

    .
    the igbo are also outbreeders (avoid cousin marriage), btw: fulani, hausa, igbo, and yoruba mating patterns (see also here).

    The Igbo are indeed relative outbreeders, but while outbreeding may be a factor in the mix it is an open question how significant it is, compared to other variables. There are other entrepreneurial peoples who are IN-BREEDERS and empire builders to boot. There are the well known Akan peoples, from whom sprang the powerful Ashanti empire, with its far-flung individual and royal trading and also gold-mining operations. There are the Mande and Wolof and Malinke- all peoples who built substantial polities, or contributed to them. The Mande for example founded the empires of Ghana and Mali.

    .
    and another potential “jews of west africa” group appears to be the bamileke of cameroon. i’m not aware of any iq data on them, though.

    The Bamileke are known or their range of craftsmanship and wide trading activities but again, it is questionable if outbreeding has much to do with this. Other factors such as political situation, geographic location etc may be much more important. The Kikuyu of Kenya for example do not seem to be great outbreeders, yet manage to dominate Kenya’s economy today with their hustling entrepreneurial spirit. They have been called the “JEws of Kenya” in some places.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Difference Maker
  71. Agubata says:
    @Dipwill

    Ife art and culture has been studied and propagated more in Africa mainly because of the general interest in the study of yoruba culture and tradition and not necessarily because of the ‘sophistication’ of Ife bronze art works. There is nothing really sophisticated about Yoruba artworks. The real artistry lies with Igbo-ukwu metal works. The general worldwide interest in the study of Yoruba culture derives from the slave trade era during which the Yorubas were among the last of ethnicities to be shipped to the new world, where they arrived to meet earlier-shipped African tribes who had long assimilated into their environment and lost a great part of their culture. The Yoruba experienced their greatest shipment to the new world (about 500 million people) after the abolishment of slave trade by the British in 1831, also coinciding with the Oyo war during which captives were sold off as slaves. The Yoruba took along with them their traditional gods and having also having arrived at a time when slave laws were abolished and relaxed, they had greater freedom in establishing and practising their religion than other groups and had strong remembrance of where they had come from. Many returned back to Africa (Nigeria and Sierra Leone). Adding to this also is the fact that they were favoured by the Portuguese who took them to mostly Latin America where slave laws were more lenient than in English America (US, Jamaica, Barbados) where Igbos were taken mostly to as they were favoured by the British for their strength and hard work. There were more Congolese, Angolan and Igbo slaves taken to the new world (in millions) than Yorubas but elements of the Yoruba tradition has survived more than these African groups combined by mere virtue of the fact that the Yoruba were the last to arrive and were also taken to areas where slave laws were lenient that they could preserve their identity. Time and environment ensured that the Yoruba tradition survived the most of all African groups taken to the new world.

    Afro-descended groups in the Caribbean who have adopted the Yoruba religion have done so not necessarily because they are Yoruba by ancestry but as a way to connect back to mama Africa. They long to reconnect to their African ancestry, their black pride, and the easiest or most accessible way of doing that is to partake in the Yoruba-derived religion in their country. For this reason, Yoruba culture and tradition has grown quite popular. Many Afro-descended blacks who pick interest in African ancestry are often presented with the Yoruba culture before any other African culture.

    I agree with you, Igbo pyramids don’t come close to that of Egyptians but pyramid construction was not a common practice among ancient African groups and it is said that there must have been some level of communication between ancient Egyptians and ancient Igbo people, especially considering the striking similarity between the Igbo pyramids and Steppe pyramids of Egypt.

  72. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Enrique Cardova

    Without a racial enemy or “Other” to sneer at, rail against, or contrast invidiously, HBD as an ideological project essentially, falls apart.

    Nonsense.

    Without the point-scoring aspect HBD is simply the truthful version of biology.

    .

    those pyramids look a bit like the ones in the Canary Islands.

  73. @Dipwill

    Yeah I don’t think they are exemplary because of their trading, though this might be better and wider ranging, relatively speaking, than surrounding neighbors. It seems Peter is more highlighting factors that might contribute to their wide ranging current success. Perhaps this would be an example of a fragmented, decentralized type people, who did not go the “large empire route” or have a heavy handed central regime dominating the space. I am trying to think of some other European peoples who lived in that type of decentralized situation, with no real big central empire or hegemon, and yet show up successful today. The Scots come to mind, but until they were associated and incorporated into the larger framework of the British empire, Scotland was a relative backwater.

    Note- The comparison here is NOT to say Scots are “better” etc, but that association with a LARGER hegemon, an empire, a bigger country, a bigger framework, including the influence of things like Christianity with its many schools, health and education efforts, helped the once fragmented, preyed upon Igbo, to end-run larger, more sophisticated neighbors and cultures in the modern era. Some history bears this out.

    The Igbo would look unpromising circa 1800 compared to more sophisticated, literate neighbors, but their decentralized format worked to their advantage, and they quickly adapted to the coming of the British hegemon, acquiring Western education rapidly. This no doubt gave them an enduring head-start in the modern industrial era, on more traditional peoples who did not adapt as quickly. This is a pretty common scenario the world over. The Scots adapted faster to British hegemony than the Irish for example.

    Peter says above re the Ibgo: ” This situation favored individuals who had certain mental traits: future time orientation, sense of initiative, ability to budget resources over space and time, transactional and symbolic thinking, etc. “

    I would hesitate to directly ascribe more of the above to the Igbo in comparison to other West Africans. There are plenty of hustling trading peoples- the Duala of Cameroon for example and others, And future time orientation, transactional or symbolic thinking is nothing new among the Ashanti, or the peoples of the Mali empire. But perhaps, with the coming of a larger hegemon like the British, those conducive features of Igbo culture “cut loose” and adapted more rapidly to the new realities on the ground. Wide ranging canoe trading on the rivers for example would overall be welcome to the colonial overlords as they pushed their administrative and commercial net even further inland. Native collaborators who could fit into the system of the hegemon would be further rewarded and be in a position to grasp the new opportunities opened up by the larger empire framework. There is even some data suggesting that Igbo religious beliefs, while fundamentally different in many respects, still shared certain similarities with Christianity, or at least grounds for dialog.

    http://www.cambridgescholars.com/download/sample/61853

    Of course, the Igbo culture cannot be seen as separate from or divorced from the larger regional cultural picture. The whole “Igbo exceptionalism” thing can be pushed too far. Still elements of Igbo culture seem to have been embedded with certain traits that helped adaptation to the modern world. Their distinctive metalwork, and presence of writing systems before Islam among the Igbo also strengthens the case for indigenous development that seized the right opportunity when it came, indicating that Peter’s thesis cannot be dismissed out of hand.

  74. Agubata says:

    One need not even look far or beyond Nigeria for evidence of Igbo achievement and success in education. Within Nigeria, the Igbo tribe has continuously excelled in nationwide federal and state examinations from primary school level to tertiary level, in exams such as WASSCE, NECO, JAMB etc. In the released WAEC results of last year 2014, all Igbo states, full and partial, dominated the list of top 10 performing states, with the highest pass rate of all ethnic states in the country. Igbo states such as Anambra, Enugu, Abia, Imo, Rivers (part Igbo), Delta (part Igbo) etc. often have the highest cut-off points for admission from primary school level to university level.

    Time after time, the Igbo have consistently proven themselves in education, within or beyond Nigeria.

    http://dailypost.ng/2014/08/29/2014-wassce-statistics-show-states-highest-percentage-pass-possible-cause-mass-failure/

  75. @Agubata

    It seems the Igbo were also active in using writing scripts developed in West Africa before the appearance of Islam. Says one scholar:

    QUOTE:

    “However, such systems are also found in areas where Muslim influence has been less strong or is unlikely. Thus, among the Ashanti and other Akan-speaking peoples of Ghana and Cote D’Ivorie, where gold was of great political, economic and symbolic significance, many goldweights bore signs that indicated their precise ponderal value; other signs corresponded to proverbs, while others represented concepts (for example, certain aspects of the Supreme Being). The nsibidi system of the Ekoi, Igbo and Ibibio peoples of the Cross River area of present-day Nigeria used over a thousand signs to represent a considerable number of concepts as well as some sounds. Nsibidi was used to record court cases and convey complex messages, including warnings in wartime, and for summarizing folktales and personal narratives; its pictograms thus constituted a true writing system.”
    –Kevin Shllingford (2004) “Literacy and Indigenous Scripts: Pre-colonial West Africa” – Encyclopedia of African History

  76. @Agubata

    Would you care to do a revised version after checking your enormously inflated figure of “about 500 million people” and noting that the British abolished the slave trade in and from 1806 or 1807, not 1831 which is pretty close to when they abolished slavery in the West Indies.

    • Replies: @Agubata
  77. The most deplorable one [AKA "Fourth doorman of the apocalypse"] says:
    @Peter Frost

    It largely measures diligence and willingness to do your assignments on time.

    If the experiences of my teacher friend (and the papers I have seen where cheating are evident) in the CA School system, then that is not quite true.

    For examples, students get their tutors to complete their homework assignments, or copy other kids work or whatever is needed to turn the work in.

  78. @Pseudonymic Handle

    No dispute about your point that Ethiopian Jews are what you would expect of ethnic Ethiopians (though that would be no certainty if one religious group had, for example an insistence on literacy or a cultural trait (e.g. wrt usury) that encourage trade and finance. However, would you care to address my speculation that having to look too far to find mates could mean having to marry the very stupid or not marry at all?

    • Replies: @anon
  79. Agubata says:

    @duderino
    Ife art and culture has been studied and propagated more in Africa mainly because of the general interest in the study of yoruba culture and tradition and not necessarily because of the ‘sophistication’ of Ife bronze art works. There is nothing really sophisticated about Yoruba artworks. The real artistry lies with Igbo-ukwu metal works. The general worldwide interest in the study of Yoruba culture derives from the slave trade era during which the Yorubas were among the last of ethnicities to be shipped to the new world, where they arrived to meet earlier-shipped African tribes who had long assimilated into their environment and lost a great part of their culture. The Yoruba experienced their greatest shipment to the new world (about 500 thousand people) after the abolishment of slave trade by the British in 1807, also coinciding with the Oyo war during which captives were sold off as slaves. The Yoruba took along with them their traditional gods and having also having arrived at a time when slave laws were abolished and relaxed, they had greater freedom in establishing and practising their religion than other groups and had strong remembrance of where they had come from. Many returned back to Africa (Nigeria and Sierra Leone). Adding to this also is the fact that they were favoured by the Portuguese who took them to mostly Latin America where slave laws were more lenient than in English America (US, Jamaica, Barbados) where Igbos were taken mostly to as they were favoured by the British for their strength and hard work. There were more Congolese, Angolan and Igbo slaves taken to the new world (in millions) than Yorubas but elements of the Yoruba tradition has survived more than these African groups combined by mere virtue of the fact that the Yoruba were the last to arrive and were also taken to areas where slave laws were lenient that they could preserve their identity. Time and environment ensured that the Yoruba tradition survived the most of all African groups taken to the new world.

    Afro-descended groups in the Caribbean who have adopted the Yoruba religion have done so not necessarily because they are Yoruba by ancestry but as a way to connect back to mama Africa. They long to reconnect to their African ancestry, their black pride, and the easiest or most accessible way of doing that is to partake in the Yoruba-derived religion in their country. For this reason, Yoruba culture and tradition has grown quite popular. Many Afro-descended blacks who pick interest in African ancestry are often presented with the Yoruba culture before any other African culture.

    I agree with you, Igbo pyramids don’t come close to that of Egyptians but pyramid construction was not a common practice among ancient African groups and it is said that there must have been some level of communication between ancient Egyptians and ancient Igbo people, especially considering the striking similarity between the Igbo pyramids and Steppe pyramids of Egypt.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  80. Agubata says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    Thanks for letting me know. The errors have been corrected from 500 million to 500 thousand and 1831 to 1807. I was really typing in a hurry. I was unable to edit the original post given that the 5-minute time frame for editing had long elapsed, I had to copy, paste , edit and re-post the original post.

  81. Truth says:
    @anon

    “A generation” is only 20 years, Bro.

  82. Vendetta says:
    @Truth

    My commentary on Ethiopians was not based at all on white admixture but on the historical achievements of their civilization. What was their sample size and who was in it? What ethnic groups? What social backgrounds?

  83. Truth says:
    @Peter Frost

    “You’re taking us back to Truth’s vision of HBD, i.e., there are only three or four races, and everything is a permutation of those basic races.”

    I think you misunderstand there, Pistol; It is not “Truth’s” vision, it is “true” vision according to the vast majority of posters here.

    So the question becomes, if IQ is mutable, and self mutable at that without use of drugs, “iodine” neurosurgery, or anything else, how did the Igbos do it?

    Because no change is truly organic, is it?

    • Replies: @Sean
    , @syonredux
  84. @Duke of Qin

    Wouldn’t the surprisingly different results from a very small sample size one year constitute “statistical noise” in the relevant sense or at least support the same point?

  85. 22pp22 says:
    @Truth

    Please tell me you’re not a Kiwi, Bro.

  86. @FirkinRidiculous

    The article by Lawal was refuted by a later article by Thurstan Shaw

  87. @Stogumber

    The person who wrote that article (Abidde) is not Igbo and he is well known (when he was known) to his audience as being prone to exaggeration and to making claims that have no empirical support. I agree with your sentiment, but he is not an Igbo person making such a boast about the Igbos, but a non-Igbo person making that claim.

  88. @Agubata

    “There is nothing really sophisticated about Yoruba artworks.”

    You obviously have not seen much of Yoruba artwork or read the studies on it.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  89. Lot says:
    @syonredux

    Even Spain’s Golden Age was not all that golden when you compare it to what was going on in the rest of Western Europe.

    I would say imposing your languages and religion on all of South and Central America, plus Mexico, is a pretty golden era.

    Like the USA with Vietnam and Iraq, Spain wasted the excess wealth in earned during its peak years with really stupid foreign wars, for example trying to keep modern Belgium and Netherlands part of the Spanish Kingdom was a very costly and bloody ordeal. Not just the lost lives, but the expensive logistics of getting men, supplies, and information from Madrid to Holland. There was also the whole plan to conquer England.

    • Replies: @syonredux
  90. Deduction says:
    @Truth

    You’re right, which is it would be easy to improve the developmental prospects of Africa or the social prospects of Black Americans.

    We could sterilise all except the cognitive top ten percent and create a new super smart race.

    Or we could tie contraceptive injections to welfare reception.

    Or we could encourage polygamy by the elites of the society.

    The effect in exams given to eleven year olds could be seen as quickly as the next eleven years and 9 months!

    There are a lot of eugenic policies which would give us quite quick results. Not all as hard to sell as those above.

    We could have a falling top rate of tax for each additional child an earner has.

    We could make contraception freely available in alcohol shops and McDonald’s.

    We could develop a one dollar 3 month contraceptive injection with a disposable needle which a non-qualified individual can easily use…oh wait, the Gates foundation has already done this!

    If we don’t try to make a society eugenic, given the availability of contraception, I believe it will default to being dysgenic for intelligence.

  91. Sean says:
    @Truth

    If by posters you mean commenters, Peter is not responsible for their misconceptions and they are better informed after reading him, unless they fall back on ‘What is truth?’ type arguments.

  92. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    So the question becomes, if IQ is mutable, and self mutable at that without use of drugs, “iodine” neurosurgery, or anything else, how did the Igbos do it?

    Because no change is truly organic, is it?

    Again, Truth, try reading this:

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2013/06/07/the-breeders-equation/

    And, if you feel up for it, try reading this:

    The 10,000 Year Explosion: How Civilization Accelerated Human Evolution
    by Gregory Cochran , Henry Harpending

    http://www.amazon.com/The-000-Year-Explosion-Civilization/dp/0465020429

  93. syonredux says:
    @Lot

    I would say imposing your languages and religion on all of South and Central America, plus Mexico, is a pretty golden era.

    Not in terms of the arts and the sciences.

  94. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Truth

    Yes, which is why if there were active measures to fix these problems (instead of ignoring them) then it wouldn’t take that long (in historical terms).

  95. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Wizard of Oz

    I’d imagine groups in that situation would need to create a culture where the women have very large numbers of children.

  96. The Igbo, before colonialism, were overwhelmingly, if not entirely rural, most of them living in communal villages, and Igbo-Ukwu had been abandoned for centuries. The Yoruba, Benin, Hausa, Kanuri, Nupe, and many others were all urbanized in some degree, and the Yoruba and Benin also had a far greater artistic output than the Igbo.

    Everything you say about the Igbo could be said about the Ashkenazi Jews. The latter lived dispersed throughout Eastern Europe, often in little villages. They did not have a single unitary state that could subsidize the building of palaces and monuments, as was the case with the Ottoman Empire. Nonetheless, the average Jew was much more talented than the average Turk.

    The Yoruba, Benin, and Hausa kingdoms arose relatively late in time and in response to the inflow of wealth created by the slave trade. This wealth gave chieftains the means to hire artisans and soldiers and thereby create centralized states that gradually expanded over larger and larger areas. They were thus able to recruit talented people over a much larger area (or capture them in raids on other peoples). This was not the case with Igbo communities.

    It is not “Truth’s” vision, it is “true” vision according to the vast majority of posters here.

    When I talk about HBD researchers, I’m not talking about anonymous posters. I’m talking about people who assume ownership of their ideas, people like Greg Cochran, Henry Harpending, John Hawks, and Gregory Clark. There’s also Steve Sailer who has done a lot to popularize HBD thinking in layman’s language.

    So the question becomes, if IQ is mutable, and self mutable at that without use of drugs, “iodine” neurosurgery, or anything else, how did the Igbos do it?

    Through natural selection. Successful traders tended to live longer and have larger families than unsuccessful ones. It’s not a stretch to assume that success reflects certain mental traits, and the heritability of most mental traits is about 0.4 plus or minus 0.2 (Bailey’s law).

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  97. @Qasim

    Igbo often have skin tones and eye colors that are significantly lighter than the typical West African (for example see Andre Iguodala).

    This is nothing special. Africans as a whole have higher skin color diversity than other peoples, and don’t need any “Eurasian” admixture to explain why. That diversity is built-in. As scholars note:

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. T
    his study examines regional differences in within-population
    diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin
    reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight
    geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe,
    West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the
    New World. Regional differences in local within-population
    diversity were examined using two measures of variability:
    the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”

    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

  98. High IQs or not, judging by the current state of the U.S. and Nigeria, neither Jews nor Igbos are very good at running nations, and Israel doesn’t count because it would fall apart without U.S. and European support, and it may do so anyway.

    • Replies: @anon
  99. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Honest Gabe

    High IQ on its own is clearly not enough – what you need is IQ married to a sense of stewardship.

  100. Realist says:
    @Truth

    ““A generation” is only 20 years, Bro.”

    With blacks it’s about 15 years…Bro!

    • Replies: @Truth
  101. neutral says:

    While this is certainly interesting, one still has to ask why a place like Nigeria is so poor (and from my personal experience Lagos is a terrible city). I know that countries like South Korea and China were dirt poor not that long ago, but both their histories indicate that they had great potential, in the past they produced literature, technical innovations and other such things. Looking at the history of West Africa I see almost nothing to indicate any such potentiality. If these Igbos are truly the elite of Africa when are we going to see some of them being in the top 10 of chess players, or winning the Fields Medal or the Nobel Physics prizes ?

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Enrique Cardova
  102. Qasim says:
    @Peter Frost

    Peter, thank you for replying to my post. (although comparing me to Truth is very insulting! :))

    You state that the belief that there are 3-4 races is simplistic. But this IS the basic thrust of HBD (at least the Rushton version), is it not? Of course this basic division in no way denies the possibility of significant variation within a race, but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.

    Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia. Your hypothesis is that a significantly higher IQ developed INDIGENOUSLY among an equatorial people, which, if true, would totally upend the standard HBD explanation for high intelligence!

    I must admit I find your explanation of high Igbo intelligence to be somewhat ad hoc. If “being in a go-between position between coastal and interior peoples” leads to high intelligence, then one would expect to find numerous examples of peoples throughout Africa arising from similar geographic circumstances exhibiting Igbo levels of educational achievement. Has this phenomenon been documented?

    And you write that the Igbo developed metallurgy much earlier than the rest of West Africa, with evidence of smelting from 2000 B.C. Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial? Your hypothesis seems to require that the salutary benefits of their geographic trading position have been continuously exerting their selection pressure on the Igbo for 6000 years! (using the 2000 years it took Ashkenazi Jews to develop their high IQ in Europe as a rough guide).

    And as other commenters here have noted, there IS a widespread stereotype of the Igbo being light-skinned amongst other Nigerians. All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.

  103. Dipwill says:
    @FirstPerson

    I wouldn’t bother replying to him further, I realized he’s an Igbo nationalist who doesn’t like anything disparaging being said about his group. He thinks the reason Yoruba art is considered so advanced is because of how prominent Yoruba culture is in new world slaves and that they’re just the best studied and so there’s no real basis for their art being considered worthwhile, and he not only thinks the Igbo “pyramids” are at all worth being mentioned in the same breath as the Egyptian ones, but that they’re “strikingly similar”. He’s clearly trying to draw a link with the Igbo having heritage with the Ancient Egyptians when, aside from trade, I don’t think there’s much at all, especially if he thinks the Igbo pyramids (which are really just stacks of mud) are comparable to the Egyptian ones.

  104. Dipwill says:
    @Peter Frost

    “Everything you say about the Igbo could be said about the Ashkenazi Jews. The latter lived dispersed throughout Eastern Europe, often in little villages. They did not have a single unitary state that could subsidize the building of palaces and monuments, as was the case with the Ottoman Empire. Nonetheless, the average Jew was much more talented than the average Turk.”

    But the difference here is that the Igbo were completely illiterate (although they did have a rudimentary proto-script that was developed indigenously) and were in just about every regard less advanced than the other groups. They aren’t very inbred either. All they really had was the fact they were traders, and this in a pre-literate environment apparently elevated them so much. I don’t deny that the Igbo do seem more intelligent, but I think what this might lend credence to is the idea that the histories of “middleman minorities” and the supposed selection pressures behind their creation are overrated, and such things are more likely due to what amounts to genetic drift. I just don’t see what them being illiterate traders was bound to make them smarter than people who’s artistic, social, and technological achievements were far greater.

    There is also a paper from several years ago that heavily criticizes Cochran and Harpending’s work on the Ashkenazi, and I’m not aware of them actually replying to it: http://www.ncas.rutgers.edu/sites/fasn/files/How%20Jews%20Became%20Smart%20%282008%29.pdf

    “The Yoruba, Benin, and Hausa kingdoms arose relatively late in time and in response to the inflow of wealth created by the slave trade. This wealth gave chieftains the means to hire artisans and soldiers and thereby create centralized states that gradually expanded over larger and larger areas. They were thus able to recruit talented people over a much larger area (or capture them in raids on other peoples). This was not the case with Igbo communities.”

    No, they didn’t. All of them predate the slave trade, the Yoruba and Benin predate the European slave trade by atleast a few centuries (and their foundations are just a few centuries later), Ile Ife’s major artworks began around the beginning of the 14th century, the Hausa kingdoms predate the Nri, and there is again the fact Nigeria’s earliest major culture, the Nok, are not ancestral to the Igbo and predate all the others by over 1,000 years. And I’m not sure what you mean by “recruiting talented people” or “capturing them in raids”- what people did they conquer that were more talented themselves? Who did they raid that gave them talented slaves?

  105. Dipwill says:
    @Qasim

    “Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia. Your hypothesis is that a significantly higher IQ developed INDIGENOUSLY among an equatorial people, which, if true, would totally upend the standard HBD explanation for high intelligence!”

    That isn’t the standard belief, and Peter doesn’t believe it. He thinks it’s secondary- personally, I don’t think it had any effect.

    “And you write that the Igbo developed metallurgy much earlier than the rest of West Africa, with evidence of smelting from 2000 B.C. Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial? Your hypothesis seems to require that the salutary benefits of their geographic trading position have been continuously exerting their selection pressure on the Igbo for 6000 years! (using the 2000 years it took Ashkenazi Jews to develop their high IQ in Europe as a rough guide).”

    On top of this, I’m pretty sure I’ve heard of metal smelting in other areas in west africa at early times, in places much further north, and the sahel region experienced the earliest urbanization in west africa, well before Islam, which I would consider to be more noteworthy than basic metal smelting (which they likely had). There is also primitive steel from 2,000 years ago in Tanzania. But yes, what this argument does come down to with metal smelting is that they’ve always been smarter, which doesn’t readily make much sense, and that this was the difference that allowed them to develop it, making them apparently far smarter even back then. Really?

    “And as other commenters here have noted, there IS a widespread stereotype of the Igbo being light-skinned amongst other Nigerians. All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.”

    It’s not a stereotype, it’s true, a large number of them are remarkably light, about as light as american mulattos or the khoisan. Nobody really knows why, and there is no evidence they are mixed. There is no genetic evidence, and their other physical features are no different from other west africans.

  106. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @neutral

    1) It’s all relative – a mean of 85 is better than a mean of 70 but it’s still 85.

    2) If an elite has no sense of stewardship or commonweal – which is the general case – then the high IQ group just uses their IQ to extract benefit for themselves.

    3) Nigeria isn’t homogenous. If the tribes had been separated into their own separate nations any differences would be more obvious.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  107. Dipwill says:
    @anon

    “1) It’s all relative – a mean of 85 is better than a mean of 70 but it’s still 85.”

    Uh huh. There’s no way Nigeria’s IQ is 70, or that the Igbo are no more intelligent than african-americans.

    • Replies: @anon
  108. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Qasim

    There are metal working castes in Africa. If the people who first made up those castes were above average IQ then if they remained endogamous (or only admitted individuals from the surrounding population who were from the right half of the local bell curve) then they could stay that way.

    The Igbo thing (if it exists) might not be Igbo but sub-groups within for similar reasons.

  109. I have no reason in principle to doubt that the Igbo are distinctly higher in IQ than other sub-Saharan Africans, or even that they do as well as better on that measure than the average white in England.

    But here’s my problem with that idea (which always is the problem with claims that, say, a group of sub-Saharan ancestry is at or near the average IQ for some white population): we never see individuals from this group show up in expected numbers at the higher ranges of cognitive ability when they are in standard Western environments.

    Here’s a quote from a comment elsewhere on unz.com that makes this point pretty clearly, starting out with a link to a document which mentions that the performance of blacks in England is far below that of whites on a standard cognitive test applied to all medical students in England:

    http://www.ukcat.ac.uk/App_Media/uploads/pdf/UKCAT%20Annual%20Report%20Final%20Low%20Res.pdf

    Standardized cognitive test administered annually to all medical students (not some dodgy power point put together in 5 minutes).

    Page 13

    UK White mean – 2737.96 with a standard deviation of 268.15
    UK Black mean – 2430.79

    Slightly more than a full standard deviation in cognitive means with a sufficiently representative national sample size.

    Where are the Igbo, or any of those of Subsaharan ancestry, in these numbers?

    It really is at the upper reaches of cognitive ability that it is easiest to detect differences across groups, because it is there that the bell curves show the greatest differentials at any given cutoff.

    In particular, it’s quite possible for a group to be selectively represented in a given environment (such as among those who are able and willing to immigrate to a western country), but the tails of the bell curve remain the same, so that very few turn up at the upper reaches. In fact, noting such behavior is a good sign of selection.

    Under such selective representation, it is indeed quite possible that the group being selected has a higher average performance than the white population, but the performance at the upper end will still be far below that of the white population. This may what is happening with the Igbo, or immigrants from Africa in general.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
    , @Enrique Cardova
  110. Dipwill says:
    @candid_observer

    Most blacks in the UK are Jamaican or some other caribbean. You go on about the highest levels with these groups, but what you cite doesn’t differentiate any sub group.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
  111. swank says:

    “can hear the answer to my question: “You guys are the ones who think all blacks are alike!” Well, that isn’t what I think.

    On a final note, I couldn’t help noticing the many commenters who complimented Chanda on sticking it to the HBD crowd. Don’t they understand the logical contraposition? If it can be shown that some African groups have higher cognitive ability, doesn’t the converse become plausible and even expectable?”

    1) The HBD crowd still bases most of its analyses on “blacks” v. “whites” v. “Asians.” United States test score gaps aren’t thought of in terms of which subgroups of “blacks” and “whites” perform well and which don’t. It’s just thought of in terms of “black” and “white.”

    Many of the conditions that seem to drive population differences certainly appear to be environmental. And it certainly seems like culture can take a small genetic or environmental difference and magnify it into something much more.

    For example, imagine two groups…group A happens to be near a piano and group B is nowhere near a piano and instead are near a flute. Group A’s first generation creates rudimentary finger technique. The second generation now has this knowledge to build on, and they build ever more sophisticated finger techniques. And so on and so on, until group A can play the piano with a high degree of technical proficiency through passing down knowledge (not any particular talent…because each generation didn’t add much).

    Group A gives group B, who have developed their own culture and knowledge base built around the flute., a piano. The first generation exposed to this will still grow up in an environment that is 99% devoted to the flute knowledge base. Successive generations will slowly shift in proportion of norms followed flute-piano, but it will take a long time. But the gulf of difference between the groups came as the result of a chance, trivial difference to start with.

    2) I’m not sure that there’s anyone who disagrees with the notion that “different groups perform differently on IQ tests.” The only disagreement stems from the cause of those differences.

    • Replies: @Bad Memories
  112. @Dipwill

    Many people have claimed that blacks from the Caribbean are also among those who achieve better than, say, the typical African American whose ancestors were slaves, and there’s some good evidence to support that claim.

    But your claim that most blacks in England are from the Carribean is false, according to Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_England

    In fact, as of 2011, 3.5% of the population in England is of African background, and 1.8% (more than half) is of African descent. There’s no way consistent with the numbers that those of African background are doing comparably well with the whites in this cognitive test for medical students.

    If one were to assume that the results for the blacks and whites in this test each followed separate bell curves (admittedly not so likely, given the tails, but still probably a decent enough approximation for these purposes), then only 13% of blacks do as well as the average for whites.

    It’s pretty hard to believe that disaggregating these numbers is going to make any particular black group look comparable to whites in performance on this test. Almost certainly those immigrating from Africa aren’t as a group going to be able to do so, since they are already half of all blacks in England, and, again, only about 13% of blacks do as well as whites.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
    , @Dipwill
  113. @candid_observer

    I meant,

    In fact, as of 2011, 3.5% of the population in England is black, and 1.8% (more than half) is of African background.

  114. @swank

    Congratulations. You have just reinvented a wonderland where simply exposing a group of people to nuclear reactors will enable them to build one in a couple of generations.

    Pity it has nothing to do with reality.

    • Replies: @swank
  115. Dipwill says:
    @candid_observer

    People who make that argument, from what I’ve seen, mainly focus on america with Jamaicans, and it’s true they do better than african-americans, but not substantially so, though I do think their IQ’s are higher. With the British, I stand somewhat corrected, but it doesn’t change the fact that a large number, possibly close to half are of carribean origin. I went ahead and looked at the Nigerian British page, and found this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nigerian#Education

    You focusing exclusively on medical exam rates that don’t break down by country of origin probably isn’t as informative as you think.

  116. swank says:
    @Bad Memories

    “You have just reinvented a wonderland where simply exposing a group of people to nuclear reactors will enable them to build one in a couple of generations.”

    Actually, the example suggested that it could take many generations. And it’s more about giving the people the piano + group A’s knowledge of the piano; group A’s knowledge and norms will still compete with B’s knowledge and norms for a long time.

    “Pity it has nothing to do with reality.”

    Are phenomena like the FE unreal, now? The first generation of commoners exposed to the elite’s method of approaching problems probably didn’t gain much. Over time, however, it seemed to add up.

  117. Rodolfo says:
    @Bbc

    The only study I’ve ever read about it disagrees with your view. Igbos have smaller cranial capacity that Northwest tribes.
    See: http://docsdrive.com/pdfs/ansinet/jas/0000/22741-22741.pdf

    • Replies: @Bbc
  118. Truth says:
    @Realist

    With blacks it’s about 15 years…Bro!

  119. Truth says:
    @Qasim

    You state that the belief that there are 3-4 races is simplistic. But this IS the basic thrust of HBD

    Hey Pete, I see why you compared HIM to ME. I guess I’m not the only one who “just doesn’t get it!”

    All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.

    LOL! Nice Hammer, Dawg, but I hear other tools are still marked down at Home Depot for the Fourth.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  120. As another data p0int, consider the Twin Cities region in Minnesota, which seems to have a large number of Nigerians these days.

    Here’s a list of the National Merit Scholarship semifinalists in that area (I think it covers the neighborhoods in which the Nigerians mostly reside, but someone who knows the area better might confirm or deny):

    http://www.twincities.com/education/ci_26569064/national-merit-semifinalists-from-north-and-east-metro

    If there are any Nigerians among these names, it’s certainly not obvious to me — certainly there numbers would have to be pretty low no matter how generously such names might be interpreted.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
    , @Ed
    , @FirstPerson
  121. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    “A generation” is only 20 years, Bro.

    Cochran disagrees:

    Second, about dates: they assume a mutation rate of 1.44 x 10-8 per generation, and a generation length of 25 years. I think both of those are a little off. All the directly-measured whole-genome rates are between 0.96×10−8 and 1.20×10−8: I wouldn’t go higher than 1.20 x 10-8 per generation, with what I know now. In the course of looking at paternal age effects, I also checked out the known data on average generation lengths. In no known population is it as short as 25 years: never less than 28 for females, and almost always longer than 28 for males, usually in the 30s. 30 is a much more reasonable generation length than 25.

    https://westhunt.wordpress.com/2014/09/09/ashkenazi-ancestry-revisited/

  122. @Vendetta

    My impression is that the Muslim elites control the military while the wealth-generating industries are Christian.

  123. Dipwill says:
    @candid_observer

    Wikipedia says there’s under 7,000 Nigerians in all of Minnesota, which is far smaller than most other states: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_American#US_states_with_largest_Nigerian_populations

  124. You state that the belief that there are 3-4 races is simplistic. But this IS the basic thrust of HBD (at least the Rushton version), is it not?

    The term HBD was coined in the late 1990s for a discussion group headed by Steve Sailer. It was an eclectic group so it’s difficult to generalize, but the dominant tendency was the Cochran-Harpending-Hawks school of accelerated gene-culture co-evolution. In short, genetic evolution didn’t stop in our species with the rise of cultural evolution. It actually accelerated, since culture became part of our adaptive landscape. So human evolution is ongoing and not something that ground to a halt back in Paleolithic, when the major human races emerged.

    Phil Rushton was a member of that group, but his theorizing was never the majority thinking. Although he became a harsh critic of evolutionary psychology, his views were influenced by many EP dogmas, including the belief that complex mental traits change very slowly and only over eons of evolutionary time.

    Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia.

    That’s part of the reason. The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles, deep storage pits for refrigeration, untended traps and snares, etc.). These adaptations predisposed northern Eurasians to move into new cultural environments, farther south, that would become the first civilizations.

    But that was an ongoing co-evolutionary process. Human nature didn’t congeal into a final form at any one point in time.

    I must admit I find your explanation of high Igbo intelligence to be somewhat ad hoc. If “being in a go-between position between coastal and interior peoples” leads to high intelligence, then one would expect to find numerous examples of peoples throughout Africa arising from similar geographic circumstances exhibiting Igbo levels of educational achievement.

    It wasn’t so much “my” explanation as the standard one. Historically, Igbo trade seems to be related to their position at the mouth of the Niger River and the ability to use the Niger as a route into the Sahel and thence to North Africa and the Middle East. There are no “similar geographic circumstances” so it’s difficult to test this explanation.

    And you write that the Igbo developed metallurgy much earlier than the rest of West Africa, with evidence of smelting from 2000 B.C. Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial?

    I’m not sure why that would be more parsimonious (perhaps closer to your way of thinking ;-). I don’t attach too much importance to smelting in itself. What is striking is large-scale smelting that exceeds local needs, which comes later in time. That’s evidence of production for trade.

    But the difference here is that the Igbo were completely illiterate (although they did have a rudimentary proto-script that was developed indigenously)

    They had an ideographic script that may have had logographic elements. It is attested among the Igbo as far back as the 16th century, although it was undoubtedly in use earlier. It was sufficient for use in trade and even court cases. High culture? No, but high culture is not necessarily a product of a high mean IQ. It’s a product of centralized states that can recruit talented people from a large territory, or even from farther beyond.

    and were in just about every regard less advanced than the other groups.

    Uh, no. There really wasn’t anything comparable in West Africa in the 9th century. Or are you still challenging that dating?

    No, they didn’t. All of them predate the slave trade, the Yoruba and Benin predate the European slave trade by at least a few centuries (and their foundations are just a few centuries later), Ile Ife’s major artworks began around the beginning of the 14th century, the Hausa kingdoms predate the Nri, and there is again the fact Nigeria’s earliest major culture, the Nok, are not ancestral to the Igbo and predate all the others by over 1,000 years.

    You’re pushing the limits of exactitude. Benin didn’t emerge as a city-state until the 15th century, apparently in response to contact with Portuguese traders. The Oyo (proto-Yoruba) empire didn’t emerge until the late 14th century, perhaps under the influence of the Sahelian kingdoms farther north (which were stimulated by trade in slaves and gold with the Muslim world). The Hausa kingdoms didn’t really emerge until the 15th century, again because of trade in slaves and other products (leather, gold, cloth) with other Sahelian kingdoms and the Muslim world.

    The Nok culture died out around 300 AD. If it had survived continuously into the present, we might be arguing why the Nok people are so much more successful than the Igbo. But they didn’t survive.

    Finally, when I wrote “the slave trade” I wasn’t referring solely to the Atlantic slave trade. There was also the overland trade with the Sahel and thence the Middle East.

    And I’m not sure what you mean by “recruiting talented people” or “capturing them in raids”- what people did they conquer that were more talented themselves? Who did they raid that gave them talented slaves?

    If a State A has three times the land area of State B, it can recruit three times as many talented people even if the mean IQ is identical for both states.

  125. vinteuil says:
    @Truth

    Truth, before you go on making an even bigger fool of yourself than you already have, you might want to check out Qasim’s posting history.

    Just out of (very mild) curiosity – who is it, exactly, that you have in mind when you make these bizarre claims about what commenters on this site believe? (i.e.: there are 3 or 4 races, they are natural kinds, and their characteristics are immutable.)

    Are you talking about Svigor? or Jefferson? or Whiskey? or Leftist Conservative? Or Syon? or any of the other frequent commenters here that I can think of off the top of my head?

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @Truth
  126. Ed says:
    @candid_observer

    There aren’t that many Nigerians in Minnesota. Houston or DC suburbs of MD are probably a better place to look.

  127. Ed says:
    @Agubata

    If the Igbo were favored by the British it must have been for the docility. The Akans had a reputation for running off and organizing rebellions. Many of the Maroon communities in the Caribbean and South America were founded by runaway Akan slaves. The famed Maroon town in Jamaica, Accompong, is named after a common Akan surname.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accompong

  128. @candid_observer

    The African immigrants (and their children) that live in Minnesota are overwhelmingly from Somalia, not Nigeria. Bad example. Instead of claiming that a place seems to have a”high number of Nigerians these days” why not actually check whether or not that’s actually true?

  129. Dipwill says:
    @Peter Frost

    “I’m not sure why that would be more parsimonious (perhaps closer to your way of thinking ;-). I don’t attach too much importance to smelting in itself. What is striking is large-scale smelting that exceeds local needs, which comes later in time. That’s evidence of production for trade.”

    So were the Igbo smelting iron in scales that exceeded local needs?

    “They had an ideographic script that may have had logographic elements. It is attested among the Igbo as far back as the 16th century, although it was undoubtedly in use earlier. It was sufficient for use in trade and even court cases. High culture? No, but high culture is not necessarily a product of a high mean IQ. It’s a product of centralized states that can recruit talented people from a large territory, or even from farther beyond.”

    That’s true, but if we’re trying to gauge their intellect based on their achievements, the Igbo are not particularly good examples. You focus on their supposed early use of metal smelting and their status as traders, but compared to just how much the other groups accomplished, is their status as pre-literate traders really a strong avenue for social selection?

    “Uh, no. There really wasn’t anything comparable in West Africa in the 9th century. Or are you still challenging that dating?”

    I’m not talking about the 9th century, I’m talking about West Africa throughout the middle ages. The Igbo for most of their history had virtually no cities and were socially less complex than the other groups. I also hope you mean nothing comparable in that region of Nigeria, because there was far more extensive urbanization and literate muslim civilizations in the Sahel region of West Africa.

    “You’re pushing the limits of exactitude. Benin didn’t emerge as a city-state until the 15th century, apparently in response to contact with Portuguese traders. The Oyo (proto-Yoruba) empire didn’t emerge until the late 14th century, perhaps under the influence of the Sahelian kingdoms farther north (which were stimulated by trade in slaves and gold with the Muslim world). The Hausa kingdoms didn’t really emerge until the 15th century, again because of trade in slaves and other products (leather, gold, cloth) with other Sahelian kingdoms and the Muslim world.

    The Nok culture died out around 300 AD. If it had survived continuously into the present, we might be arguing why the Nok people are so much more successful than the Igbo. But they didn’t survive.”

    I’m curious where you get the idea Benin didn’t emerge as a city-state until then, because Portuguese accounts attest to them being developed by then, and their primary artistic tradition predates Portuguese contact by several decades. The Oyo Empire didn’t emerge until then, but Yoruba towns and cities certainly predate then, including Ile Ife and it’s art. I am skeptical how much trade with the muslims to the north influenced them, since culturally, southern nigeria had little influence from them.

    Most sources I can find on the Hausa clearly say they first arose in the early middle ages, and they didn’t even adopt Islam in any degree until the 11th century.

    The point I make about the Nok is that if we’re going to talk about the Igbo being more advanced early on, another good candidate would be the Nok, who created many terracotta pieces that were often life sized, and are basically the first instance of advanced art in West Africa, and while their culture may not have survived, they as a people did not die out- they gave rise to multiple other Nigerian peoples, including the Hausa.

  130. syonredux says:
    @vinteuil

    Just out of (very mild) curiosity – who is it, exactly, that you have in mind when you make these bizarre claims about what commenters on this site believe? (i.e.: there are 3 or 4 races, they are natural kinds, and their characteristics are immutable.)

    Are you talking about Svigor? or Jefferson? or Whiskey? or Leftist Conservative? Or Syon? or any of the other frequent commenters here that I can think of off the top of my head?

    Well, he certainly can’t mean me.I’ve never said anything about “races having immutable characteristics.”That’s a completely anti-evolutionary notion.

    As for how many “races” there are, I don’t think that I’ve ever limited it to 3 or 4.To the contrary, I have noted that race, as a concept, can be scaled up or scaled down.For example:

    British Isles: small scale race.Very, very closely related.

    Northern Europe: somewhat bigger.Very closely related, but not as closely related as the British Isles grouping.

    Continental Europe: Much bigger. Closely related, but not as closely related as the Northern European cluster.

    North Africa,West Asia, Europe: Broadly related.As big as you can go, really, and still make a reasonably coherent group.

    Note that each group is defined in opposition to something else.

    British Isles: In contrast to non-British Isles

    Northern Europe: in contrast to Southern Europe

    Europe: in contrast to non-Europe

    North Africa,West Asia, Europe: in contrast to the other Continental scale races: Australoids, Amerinds, etc.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  131. @Peter Frost

    1. You say that “That’s part of the reason. The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles, deep storage pits for refrigeration, untended traps and snares, etc.). These adaptations predisposed northern Eurasians to move into new cultural environments, farther south, that would become the first civilizations.

    But that was an ongoing co-evolutionary process. Human nature didn’t congeal into a final form at any one point in time.”

    The first civilizations in the “old world” were in Egypt and Sumer and also in warm climates in Mesoamerica in the “new world”. The first real civilizations seem to actually originate not from “cold” environments at all. The rest of the Mediterranean was affected by Egypt’s development of writing, among other things.

    2. You say that “They had an ideographic script that may have had logographic elements. It is attested among the Igbo as far back as the 16th century, although it was undoubtedly in use earlier. It was sufficient for use in trade and even court cases.

    That script was invented by a completely different ethnic group who are not closely related to the Igbo called the Ekoi. They simply adopted it through trade.

    3. You say that “You’re pushing the limits of exactitude. Benin didn’t emerge as a city-state until the 15th century, apparently in response to contact with Portuguese traders. The Oyo (proto-Yoruba) empire didn’t emerge until the late 14th century, perhaps under the influence of the Sahelian kingdoms farther north (which were stimulated by trade in slaves and gold with the Muslim world). The Hausa kingdoms didn’t really emerge until the 15th century, again because of trade in slaves and other products (leather, gold, cloth) with other Sahelian kingdoms and the Muslim world.

    But literally every part of this paragraph is completely false and very strongly contradicted by every credible academic publication which has ever been published on the Yoruba, Benin, and Hausa. There is strong archaeological (and even written evidence) which contradicts all of what you state here. All of this is false.

    You say “Finally, when I wrote “the slave trade” I wasn’t referring solely to the Atlantic slave trade. There was also the overland trade with the Sahel and thence the Middle East.

    You have no evidence of a slave trade with the Sahel or North Africa or the Middle East being responsible for the rise of any of the kingdoms of any of the peoples – Igbo, Yoruba, Benin, or Hausa – that have been discussed here. You have no such evidence because none exists to support that idea.

    Mr. Frost, have you actually read any works on African history? This entire thread, and much of what you claim in your posts are filled with made up ideas that have no support in academic sources.

    • Replies: @anon
    , @Enrique Cardova
  132. Bbc says:
    @Rodolfo

    Not my view, I was pointing out something frequently said on the Nigerian forum.

  133. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Dipwill

    The numbers were just for illustration – the point is it’s all relative so if a population y has a higher mean IQ than population x it doesn’t follow that they must have the same achievements as a population with a mean of z.

  134. anon • Disclaimer says:
    @FirstPerson

    This entire thread, and much of what you claim in your posts are filled with made up ideas that have no support in academic sources.

    One argument in this thread is is it possible for the claim made by Mr Chisala to be true and another is whether it is true. The two have got jumbled together.

  135. OK, so Minnesota probably wasn’t the best place to look for Nigerians. Houston seems to be a much better place, with 150,000 Nigerians according to Wikipedia:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Houston#Nigerians

    Houston has a population of about 2 million, so that would be about 7% Nigerian.

    But are there any National Merit Semifinalists among those from Houston?

    http://www.yourhoustonnews.com/ranch/news/semifinalists-named-in-the-national-merit-scholarship-program/article_2982874d-47c3-5677-a9ef-bdfbe904c069.html

    I won’t pretend to know for sure which of these names might be Nigerian, but I don’t see many that seem to be obvious candidates. Maybe someone with that knowledge can spot some?

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @FirstPerson
    , @Ed
  136. @candid_observer

    I do not think any of those names are Nigerian. There are several other cities that Nigerians are in in Texas. I know a Nigerian student who was a national merit semifinalist from another city in Texas who went on to attend Stanford. She went to high school in a suburb in the DFW area and graduated high school in 2006. I do not know what she is doing now however.

    I think the national merit semifinalist list would be useful if you could show that Nigerians are even represented significantly in the national achievement list. If they are in the national achievement lists frequently but not in the national merit lists for the same school districts then it would show that they are not meeting the cutoff for the national merit lists. But if they are not represented much in either there might not be enough of them in any one city or school district for them to be represented significantly.

    There are other Nigerian students like Saheela Ibrahim or Harold Ekeh that did well in the U.S. It is possible that these two students got the national merit semifinalist recognition or scholarship, though I have not read that they did. Ekeh was an Intel semifinalist so it is possible that he was a national merit semifinalist since his academic performance was clearly stellar. But I never saw that mentioned in the stories on him so perhaps he did not take the PSAT. In other countries there are Nigerian students doing well and coming at the top of their graduating classes so I think there may be a trend like that for Nigerian immigrants as mentioned in the article by Chisala. Getting national merit data would be hard for every city where there are some Nigerians and doing a population adjusted comparison with other groups would also be a hefty task. But if you are up for it, good luck.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
  137. @candid_observer

    candid_observer

    I looked a little harder and I was able to find this. She was not just a semifinalist, but actually a finalist.

    http://www.felicianaexplorer.com/content/west-feliciana%E2%80%99s-ngozi-nwabueze-recognized-national-merit-finalist

    She is Igbo.

    However this example demonstrates the difficulty of using the national merit lists, because it has to be done by checking every individual school district or city and without a story promoting an individual like this one it would be hard to find the information needed to make a comparison unless all school districts list the names of the people getting national merit semifinalist or finalist recognition. I never read any story like this one above about my acquaintance who graduated in the DFW area in 2006 and was a semifinalist and if this website about West Feliciana had not decided to make a story out of this person’s award I would not even have this example to show you. So I think the national merit list approach for making comparisons has its challenges.

  138. Truth says:
    @vinteuil

    Are you talking about Svigor? or Jefferson? or Whiskey? or Leftist Conservative? Or Syon? or any of the other frequent commenters here that I can think of off the top of my head?

    Yeah, sounds good.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  139. @Qasim

    but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.

    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians? Now go through some dubious contortions to try to shoehorn them into one of your “standing” categories.. lol

    .
    Furthermore, the standard HBD belief is that the increased intelligence of Europeans and East Asians in comparison to Sub-Saharan Africans is due to the selection pressures brought about by having to survive winters for many millenia.

    And this “standard belief ” has been pretty much debunked by credible scholarship.

    Evolution, brain size, and the national IQ of peoples … – Jelte Wicherts 2010

    http://wicherts.socsci.uva.nl/wichertsPAIDrejoinder.pdf

    http://nilevalleypeoples.blogspot.com/2014/03/hbd-heriditarian-race-reality-claims.html

    http://www.anth.uconn.edu/faculty/mcbrearty/Pdf/McB%20&%20Brooks%202000%20TRTW.pdf

    .
    then one would expect to find numerous examples of peoples throughout Africa arising from similar geographic circumstances exhibiting Igbo levels of educational achievement.

    Actually there are several peoples (see Sierra Leone for example) who have attained high levels of educational achievement in their local societies. However many people from these groups however have not migrated out to the extent of the Igbo, so test measures from the UK are not available on them, but they like the Igbo, show early adoption to modern Western education, which yields enduring advantages on assorted modern tests. This is indeed a common pattern not only in Africa but elsewhere. Scotland, once a backwater, adapted to British hegemony over many centuries, with fulsome benefit and achievement for the Scots, through their centuries of association with a larger hegemon’s framework. Scots went on for example to do well in the educational system of Britain over the centuries.

    .
    Isn’t is therefore more parsimonious to conclude the Igbo have been smarter than their neighbors from time immemorial?
    Actually this is one of the LEAST parsimonious conclusions. “Time immemorial” would cover all data up to the present era, hardly a “parsimonious” way of doing things. Peter’s argument is reasonable in the sense that elements of the Igbo culture, coalesced and found linkages with the incoming British culture that enabled more rapid adaptation to the modern industrial era, and its educational structures.

    .
    And as other commenters here have noted, there IS a widespread stereotype of the Igbo being light-skinned amongst other Nigerians. All the above reasons lead me to conclude that the hypothesis that high Igbo intelligence is at least partly the result of Eurasian admixture can not not be dismissed so quickly.

    Actually credible scholarship already quoted (Relethford 2000, et al) has already debunked and dismissed your obsolete “white blood” theory. Igbo variation in skin color is nothing special- it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called ‘Red” Igbo, to numerous other variants in between. Such variation is nothing new, and nothing special in Africa.

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions. T
    his study examines regional differences in within-population
    diversity of human skin color. Published data on skin
    reflectance were collected for 98 male samples from eight
    geographic regions: sub-Saharan Africa, North Africa, Europe,
    West Asia, Southwest Asia, South Asia, Australasia, and the
    New World. Regional differences in local within-population
    diversity were examined using two measures of variability:
    the sample variance and the sample coefficient of variation.
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”
    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.

    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    • Replies: @Deduction
    , @Qasim
  140. @neutral

    Peter never said they were any “elite” of Africa per se. They are an example of a people who drawing on indigenous cultural elements (from metalwork, to trading, etc), adapted more quickly to modern Western education, and now today, reap the advantages. The Scots likewise adapted more quickly than others through centuries of adaptation to the larger framework of British hegemony, and as a result of those centuries, show the advantages. The Igbo have not had the same adaptation time as the Scots, but still the general pattern shows itself.

  141. @Peter Frost

    That’s part of the reason. The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles, deep storage pits for refrigeration, untended traps and snares, etc.). These adaptations predisposed northern Eurasians to move into new cultural environments, farther south, that would become the first civilizations.
    This is a bit overstated. As McBreaty and Brooks 2000 show, the people who initiated any such “revolution” were Africans, that expanded in the more favorable environments of Eurasia in different eras. And sophisticated large scale civilizations first expand to real heights in the tropical and sub-tropical zone, such as the dynasties that sprang from the south in Egypt- an area of the country that is in the tropical zone.

    .
    It was sufficient for use in trade and even court cases. High culture? No, but high culture is not necessarily a product of a high mean IQ. It’s a product of centralized states that can recruit talented people from a large territory, or even from farther beyond.

    Indeed, the script was in place before Arabs or Islam appeared. Use in Igbo trading operations would not be an indicator of Igbo exceptionalism exactly but of adaptability. Likewise even if the advanced metalwork was developed elsewhere in the region, the Igbo were already making use of it. Mayhaps it could be argued that their decentralized, fragmented polities did not allow a concentration of resources and talent sufficient to build larger state structures, or more rapid transmission of new tech and knowledge over a huge area, like one of the larger empires.

    But what looks like a disadvantage- fragmentation and small scale – concealed a ferment embedded in Igbo culture. In fact as noted above, even their religion had some elements similar to, and conducive to taking on Christianity- though the belief systems are different in many key respects. Once they had been drawn into the larger framework of the British empire, with its education, missionaries and so on, then this seeming disadvantage became an advantage. They adapted more rapidly than bigger, more sophisticated traditional polities, and reaped the advantages. If they were under a conservative, central Muslim hegemon by contrast, their relatively rapid adoption of Christianity and new Western knowledge would have proceeded more slowly. This “early adopter advantage” pattern appears in a number of places around the world.

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  142. @candid_observer

    But here’s my problem with that idea (which always is the problem with claims that, say, a group of sub-Saharan ancestry is at or near the average IQ for some white population)

    It depends on the white population being compared. In Lynn and Vanhaven’s national IQ rankings, West Africans of Sierre Leone come out at number 16, higher than white Albania, Bosnia, Chile, Croatia, Turkey, Serbia, or white/”Caucasoid” Iraq, Kuwait, Columbia, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria and most of the other Arab emirates.

    It also depends on the measuring device. Chisala’s data does on fact show the Africans outperforming the white average on several counts, based on the instrument used, or making both relative and absolute gains. The usual objection to this is that the African immigrants were “selected” group- but all immigrants are to some extent a select group, including white Americans who are immigrants to that territory. Furthermore the Africans as Chisala shows labor under some language difficulties- they have no easy road – but yet on those measures still post above the white average. As for whites on the upper end, those at the upper end are themselves a “select” group, typically endowed with better educations, family backgrounds, better nutrition, more exposure to books, more affluence etc than others. So they too are beneficiaries of environmental “selection” and their test results reflect it.

    Chisala’s data is also confirmed by other research, While genetics plays a part as all know, so too does environment. Per Nisbett al at 2012:

    We review new findings and new theoretical developments in the field of intelligence. New findings include the following: (a) Heritability of IQ varies significantly by social class. (b) Almost no genetic polymorphisms have been discovered that are consistently associated with variation in IQ in the normal range. (c) Much has been learned about the biological underpinnings of intelligence. (d) “Crystallized” and “fluid” IQ are quite different aspects of intelligence at both the behavioral and biological levels. (e) The importance of the environment for IQ is established by the 12-point to 18-point increase in IQ when children are adopted from working-class to middle-class homes. (f) Even when improvements in IQ produced by the most effective early childhood interventions fail to persist, there can be very marked effects on academic achievement and life outcomes. (g) In most developed countries studied, gains on IQ tests have continued, and they are beginning in the developing world. (h) Sex differences in aspects of intelligence are due partly to identifiable biological factors and partly to socialization factors. (i) The IQ gap between Blacks and Whites has been reduced by 0.33 SD in recent years.

    –Intelligence: new findings and theoretical developments.(Author abstract)(Report)
    The American psychologist [0003-066X] yr:2012 vol:67 iss:2 pg:130

    • Replies: @Hippopotamusdrome
  143. So were the Igbo smelting iron in scales that exceeded local needs?

    Yes, that was the conclusion of Eze-Uzomaka (see above article).

    You focus on their supposed early use of metal smelting and their status as traders

    Again, their early use of metal smelting (why the snark word “supposed”?) doesn’t count for much in itself. What counts is the scale of the production. We should also consider the techniques of metallurgy, which appear to be largely of indigenous origin. This was not the case with the Hausa, among whom metallurgy appeared later in time and was largely inspired by North African and Middle Eastern traditions.

    but compared to just how much the other groups accomplished, is their status as pre-literate traders really a strong avenue for social selection?

    More snark. Why not say “semi-literate” instead of “pre-literate”? This is supposed to be an academic discussion and not a political debate. Also, it’s natural selection, not social selection.

    Traders, unlike farmers (who can revert to autarky), are very sensitive to market conditions. If they can’t sell, they starve to death. This is what happened during the Bengal famine of 1944. The farmers survived that famine a lot better than the traders.

    I’m not talking about the 9th century, I’m talking about West Africa throughout the middle ages.

    My point was that the Igbo began to develop a market economy and show advanced cultural development (e.g., metallurgy) at a much earlier date than other West Africans. They also developed much more through their own resources and intellect.

    Again, you attach too much importance to the trappings of centralized state formation (building of monuments, palaces, etc.) By that line of reasoning, the Ashkenazi Jews were nobodies. For that matter, the English were nobodies for most of their history.

    I’m curious where you get the idea Benin didn’t emerge as a city-state until then, because Portuguese accounts attest to them being developed by then, and their primary artistic tradition predates Portuguese contact by several decades. The Oyo Empire didn’t emerge until then, but Yoruba towns and cities certainly predate then, including Ile Ife and it’s art. I am skeptical how much trade with the muslims to the north influenced them, since culturally, southern nigeria had little influence from them.

    “By the 15th century, Edo as a system of protected settlements expanded into a thriving city-state. In the 15th century, the twelfth Oba in line, Oba Ewuare the Great (1440–1473) would expand the city-state to an empire.

    It was not until the 15th century during the reign of Oba Ewuare the Great that the kingdom’s administrative centre, the city Ubinu, began to be known as Benin City by the Portuguese, and would later be adopted by the locals as well.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benin_Empire

    With respect to the Yoruba, evidence of urbanism go no farther back than the 12th century. There is evidence of artwork but it was produced under royal patronage and not for trade.

    “Archaeologically, the settlement at Ife shows features of urbanism in the 12th – 14th century era. In the period around 1300 C.E. the artists at Ife developed a refined and naturalistic sculptural tradition in terracotta, stone and copper alloy – copper, brass, and bronze many of which appear to have been created under the patronage of King Obalufon II

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoruba_people#Oyo_and_Ile-Ife

    The earliest Hausa kingdom Kanem-Borno did not begin to expand until the 13th century, when it is first mentioned in Muslim texts.

    and while their [the Nok] culture may not have survived, they as a people did not die out- they gave rise to multiple other Nigerian peoples, including the Hausa.

    You seem to subscribe to the Truth school of HBD.

    Without culture, there can be no gene-culture coevolution. If a cultural tradition dies out, it can no longer maintain the patterns of thought and behavior that it once supported. If you don’t use it, you lose it. Even if the Nok were ancestral to the Hausa, the people who survived the extinction of the Nok culture would have been living under less advanced conditions. What was once useful would no longer be useful.

    The first civilizations in the “old world” were in Egypt and Sumer and also in warm climates in Mesoamerica in the “new world”. The first real civilizations seem to actually originate not from “cold” environments at all.

    Excuse me, but aren’t you now arguing against your previous comment? You know, the stuff about cognition being favored by adaptation to northern climates? If I remember, I was the one who was saying that this was merely part of the overall picture.

    Most of the human gene pool has its origins in people who lived in northern Eurasia 10,000 years ago. We see this in the Eurasiatic language macrofamily and the more hypothetical Borean macrofamily, both of which are centered on northern Eurasia. There seems to have been a series of southward-moving demographic expansions since the end of the last ice age.

    They simply adopted it through trade.

    Just as our ancestors adopted the Phoenician alphabet and Arabic numerals.

    But literally every part of this paragraph is completely false and very strongly contradicted by every credible academic publication which has ever been published on the Yoruba, Benin, and Hausa.

    I’ve presented my sources, both in the comments and in the original article. I can only conclude that we are in fundamental disagreement.

    You have no evidence of a slave trade with the Sahel or North Africa or the Middle East being responsible for the rise of any of the kingdoms of any of the peoples – Igbo, Yoruba, Benin, or Hausa

    In the case of the Igbo, there is no such evidence, and I never said there was. The Hausa were definitely involved in the transsaharan slave trade. In fact, slaves were the main commodity that they exported. The Yoruba and the Benin were more peripheral to this trade, and I would certainly give more weight to the Atlantic slave trade in their case.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  144. @FirstPerson

    The point behind my choice of Houston, and the numbers I cited, were that one would certainly expect to see Nigerians turning up in some significant numbers in the National Merit Scholarship Semifinalist list for Houston if they were exhibiting the same level of cognitive performance as whites. As I pointed out, they appear to be 7% of the population of Houston. The list has about 250 names. One might expect about 15-20 Nigerian names if they were performing at the same level as whites, yet there appear to be none, by your account. This strongly suggests that their actual level of performance is far lower than that of whites (or Asians, who always do quite well).

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  145. In an earlier comment, I had brought up the performance of blacks in England on the test for medical students, with the following summary result:

    UK White mean – 2737.96 with a standard deviation of 268.15
    UK Black mean – 2430.79

    It is instructive to compare that result to the similar results for whites vs blacks in the US on the MCAT, the comparable test for potential medical students in the US. Here the summary result is:

    US White mean — 29.3 with overall SD of 5.5
    US Black mean — 22.5

    In summary comparison, blacks in the UK perform 1.15 SD below whites, and blacks in the US perform 1.27 SD below whites.

    So despite the fact that the blacks in the UK would appear to be almost entirely composed of higher achieving groups from Africa and the Caribbean, there is only a trivial difference in their performance at this very high level.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @Dragon Horse
  146. @Enrique Cardova

    Nonsense. If true about Igbo it is only another facet of HBD

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  147. @Peter Frost

    Peter Frost you quoted a wikipedia article on Benin. That is unfortunate. Benin became an empire several decades before the Portuguese arrived and when the Portuguese got there they found an already thriving state that was already influential in the region. You do not seem to understand that it had already existed as a city-state even before the 15th century which is contrary to what you initially said. The claim in the badly written wikipedia article that it expanded into a city state in the 15th century is nonsense and is contradicted by every professional study of that state.

    You also said “With respect to the Yoruba, evidence of urbanism go no farther back than the 12th century. .”

    This is just completely false. Why do you not just read up on these peoples and cultures beforehand if you are going to discuss them?

    You also said “The earliest Hausa kingdom Kanem-Borno did not begin to expand until the 13th century, when it is first mentioned in Muslim texts.

    Kanem-Borno was not even Hausa and the first mention of Kanem is from the 9th century not the 13th century anyway.

    You said “Excuse me, but aren’t you now arguing against your previous comment? You know, the stuff about cognition being favored by adaptation to northern climates? If I remember, I was the one who was saying that this was merely part of the overall picture.

    Most of the human gene pool has its origins in people who lived in northern Eurasia 10,000 years ago. We see this in the Eurasiatic language macrofamily and the more hypothetical Borean macrofamily, both of which are centered on northern Eurasia. There seems to have been a series of southward-moving demographic expansions since the end of the last ice age.”

    No I am not in any way arguing against my previous comment. I did not say anything about “cognition being favored by adaptation to northern climates”. You must be confusing me with someone else. I was simply countering your claim that “cold environments” have anything in particular to do with the first real civilizations. The rest of this paragraph is speculation.

    You say “I’ve presented my sources, both in the comments and in the original article. I can only conclude that we are in fundamental disagreement.

    You go farther than your sources allow and make unfounded speculations about peoples that you have clearly read very little about in order to make your arguments.

    You say “In the case of the Igbo, there is no such evidence, and I never said there was. The Hausa were definitely involved in the transsaharan slave trade. In fact, slaves were the main commodity that they exported. The Yoruba and the Benin were more peripheral to this trade, and I would certainly give more weight to the Atlantic slave trade in their case.

    The Yoruba and Benin were not involved in the transsaharan slave trade in any significant numbers if at all. The Atlantic slave trade came about long after both groups had already established states. There is no evidence that the transsaharan slave trade is what caused the Hausa city states to develop either. You are simply making things up.

  148. Sure Nigerians are not as well represented as say Asians or whites. In California for example, Asians were 11% of the high school students and more than 60% of NMS semifinalists. But the National Merit Scholarship is only one measure, and a limited one at that, based on one test only, and only a small number of students nationwide take the PSAT/NMSQT pre-screening to begin with. Its a high end measure -to be eligible for scholarships, high school juniors must score among the top 1% of test-takers in their home state- and then there is further weeding out on top of this. Indeed, National Merit Scholarship (NMS) semifinalists represent about the top half of one percent of a given state’s scores on the PSAT. That Nigerians do not match the heavy Asian representation at the finish line is nothing earth-shattering – 99% of white Americans don’t match up either.

    On other more broadly based, more representative measures however, the Nigerians outperform the white average. Nor is this a US phenomenon. Data from Britain on some schooling measures, indicates that White British children are falling behind pupils from ethnic minorities, including Black Africans, even though the white children start out with advantages over the culluds, including starting compulsory education earlier, and having a better handle on the English language than many of the immigrants, or immigrant background children.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8002214/White-British-pupils-make-less-progress-than-ethnic-minorities.html

    And as Ron Unz’s well buttressed data shows, massive Asian over-representation on the ultra selective NSM is not being reflected in admission to elite colleges, indicating that whites are discriminating against Asians through various means, such as manipulated admission processes, or “legacy” type quotas for mostly whites. Nationwide, Unz estimates that 25–30% of NMS semifinalists in 2010 were Asians, far higher than their enrollment in the Ivies. The game some suggest is being rigged to keep Asians back. Others have long argued that the controllers of the game may be Jews who have the most to gain by slowing down Asian advance, and perhaps are overrepresented in admission decision structures. Whether this is the exact situation remains under debate, but whatever the case, Unz’ data is clear.

  149. @FirstPerson

    The first real civilizations seem to actually originate not from “cold” environments at all. The rest of the Mediterranean was affected by Egypt’s development of writing, among other things.

    Indeed. It should be noted that some scholars show writing being developed some centuries earlier in Egypt than in Mesopotamia (Darnell 2003, Dreyer 1999). The alphabet in use today was also derived in part from Egyptian scripts and writing, adapted by Semitic speakers. (Sacks 2003- Language Visible)

    .
    That script was invented by a completely different ethnic group who are not closely related to the Igbo called the Ekoi. They simply adopted it through trade.
    But both Ekoi and Igbo fall within the same general culture area., and the scripts, which have partial logographic and syllabic elements, have been in use by various language groups in southern Nigeria from before Islamic times- including both Igbo and Ekoi. This would show the Igbo capability for adaptation, but also indicates that the Igbo tapped into and shared the general regional culture, and cannot be viewed as super-exceptions. This regional sharing would incorporate the elements Peter talks about. The Igbo thus did not need to develop metallurgy or writing independently. The regional cultures already provided the nursery for adaptation into Igbo culture, and this in turn provided the basis for adaptation when the British empire’s education framework appeared.

  150. @candid_observer

    I understood the point behind your choice of Houston quite well but I do not think you understood one of my points. If Nigerians are not significantly represented in the national achievement lists or the national semifinalist lists then they may not be taking the PSAT at the same rates as others (including Black Americans who are not of Nigerian origin) relative to their population. The example I gave with Harold Ekeh was to suggest that he might not even have taken the PSAT yet he was a semifinalist with the Intel Science Talent search which as far as I can tell is actually a more difficult or more selective recognition to achieve and his academic performance in general was clearly stellar.

    Also the logic of your analysis could be reversed. I mentioned earlier about how the lady I knew that graduated in 2006 and later went to Stanford was from a DFW suburb. This was a suburb that was far less diverse than Houston and I would be surprised if I were to find out that there were even up to 50 families of Nigerian origin in that city. Yet she was a semifinalist. So despite coming from a demographic that constitutes a very small fraction of her city she was a semifinalist. She could be said to be show better performance relative to population size just as a person might see the absence of Nigerians on the list for Houston is evidence of poorer performance relative to population size. The absence of Nigerians on the list for Houston could be for other reasons though such as those Nigerians that take the PSAT and do well on it being in suburbs rather than large cities like Houston. Consider this example. There is a suburb near Houston called Sugar Land (funny name) where I know that some of the more affluent and better educated Nigerians (compared to the ones in the actual city of Houston that is) stay. Sugar Land is the center of the Fort Bend Independent School District.

    If you look at the Fort Bend Independent School District list of semifinalists for 2014 you see overwhelmingly Asian names

    http://www.fortbendisdnews.com/go/doc/1934/1896945/

    But on that list there is one Nigerian name: Olubusola Akinniranye

    That is a Yoruba Nigerian name. But how many Nigerians are there in the cities and towns covered by the Fort Bend Independent School District compared to whites? There are far far fewer Nigerians in the areas covered by Fort Bend Independent School District than there are white people. So once again that would be an example of Nigerians performing well relative to population size.

    Consider also the example of the lady Ngozi Nwabueze mentioned in the West Feliciana article. How many Nigerians do you think there are in the town of St Francisville? The town is only about one quarter Black to begin with and the vast majority of those Black people are not going to be Nigerian. In fact, how many Nigerians are there in Louisiana for that matter? Yet that lady was a finalist (not just semifinalist) i.e. one of the top 15,000 students in the nation.

    So I do not think your population based comparison really proves anything definitively because there are still other factors to take into account. Your analysis assumes the distribution of Nigerians that can (if they even take the PSAT) or will qualify for the semifinalist list are distributed in such a way that there is no difference between those in cities and suburbs and it assumes the Nigerian families in a city like Houston have the same level of affluence and education as Asians or whites in that same city. Asians are nearly 4% of the entire population of Texas whereas people of Nigerian descent are only a tiny fraction (much less than 1%) of the nearly 12% of the population of Texas that is Black and I would not be surprised if there is simply a much much larger contingent of ‘elite’ Asian families in cities like Houston than there are ‘elite’ Nigerian families in those same cities. Your analysis needs to take into account a wider range of factors.

    Another thing is that the estimate on Wikipedia may be inaccurate. The source cited (which is not from a study) says that there may be 150,000 but the sentence it is on comes immediately after another sentence in that paragraph of the Wikipedia article about the “Greater Houston” area so the 150,000 if it is accurate may not be for the city of Houston alone but the greater Houston area.

    This source, which is a government source:

    http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/48/4835000.html

    Says the actual population (2010 stats are the latest that seem to be available) of the city of Houston (not the greater Houston area) is 23.7% black. If we go with the assumption that 7% of the city of Houston is Nigerian, that would mean that nearly 1 out of every 3 black people in Houston is Nigerian – something which definitely does not tally with my experiences from visiting there and something which sounds very unlikely. I would need to see some actual study done before I accept that Nigerians are nearly one out of every 3 black people in Houston.

  151. @candid_observer

    This is an inadequate analysis.

    First one of the main themes of Chisala’s article was not to just lump groups into “black” and “white”. It is misleading for the purposes of the discussion to say that “blacks in the UK would appear to be almost entirely composed of higher achieving groups from Africa and the Caribbean” when in fact the groups being discussed are only groups from certain countries in Africa like Nigeria and Ghana. Other blacks from African countries that are economically and educationally worse off than Nigeria and Ghana and which do not show the same rates of high educational achievement of their immigrant populations also go to medical school in the UK including students who did not actually grow up in the UK and did not receive most of their earlier schooling in the UK. Also more of the black population in the UK is of Afro-Caribbean origin than Nigerian, Ghanaian, Cameroonian, Kenyan, etc. origin and Afro-Caribbean immigrants do not actually have the same general statistics as African immigrants from countries like the aforementioned ones.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
  152. anon • Disclaimer says:

    So despite the fact that the blacks in the UK would appear to be almost entirely composed of higher achieving groups from Africa and the Caribbean, there is only a trivial difference in their performance at this very high level.

    I’m not sure this is true and a potential source of confusion.

    The early Afro-Caribbean immigration was mostly unskilled labor and some of the African immigration e.g. Somalis, are refugee dominated and also mostly unskilled but then on top of that there are other African populations which seem skewed to people who had the ability to raise some cash / get into university so I think the black distribution is actually skewed in both directions: high and low and away from the middle.

    A likely source of confusion when averaged together.

    .

    You focus on their supposed early use of metal smelting and their status as traders

    If you’re looking for a sub-group with a higher mean IQ then I’d have thought endogamous castes engaged in relatively high status / wealth activities would be the place to look e.g. metal working

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blacksmiths_of_western_Africa

    or maybe do it the other way round – creating an outcaste population like the Osu among the Igbo

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_system_in_Africa

    (which reminds me of that French outcaste group whose name I forget)

    .

    Mean IQ increasing with latitude.

    I think the most likely answer is base IQ rose with latitude (among HGs) (just for illustration say 70, 80, 90) and then there’s a civilization bonus on top (just for illustration say +10) due to more complex societies having specific niches with higher cognitive requirements which people compete for.

    I think you see a hint of this when you have classical writers describing people to their north or south. When they describe people to the north they mention physical differences a lot but rarely anything IQ related whereas they often do about peoples to the south.

  153. Ron Unz says:

    Well, I’ll admit I haven’t looked through this extremely long comment-thread, but isn’t there a pretty easy way to get a handle on the relative academic performance of e.g. Nigerian-Americans vs. American blacks in general?

    The National Achievement Scholarship Program is only open to black students in the U.S., and has since 1964 provided awards to 1600 top-scoring students each year based on the PSAT (an exact parallel to the NMS system). If someone manages to track down the lists of winners, the Nigerian-Ibo names should be very distinctive and easy to recognize, as well as those of lots of other African immigrant groups. In addition, Jamaican blacks and others from the Caribbean often have somewhat distinctive first and last names, and perhaps could be roughly estimated as well.

    Since a large majority of American blacks have ordinary Anglo-Saxon names, their numbers are normally very difficult to determine, but since this competition is only open to black students, the problem disappears.

    Furthermore, the winners on this list could then be cross-checked against the NMS list from the same state or city to determine if their scores were high enough to reach that more difficult cut-off as well.

  154. Sean says:

    If it can be shown that some African groups have higher cognitive ability, doesn’t the converse become plausible and even expectable

    Only if one is looking at it from the standpoint of what the empirical evidence shows. Who likes to hear about clever black Africans exceeding the white average but the indigenous upper middle class? They would never admit to believing that they are cleverer than the working class whites for HBD reasons, and insist it is all a matter of effortful aspiration and applying oneself. Hence the poor indigenous are pegged as vicious and lazy victims of their own beliefs.

    So when exulting at clever sub Saharan Africans outdoing whites in education, or clever immigrants outdoing the indigenous in everything, including impregnating indigenous women (the supreme liberal good) the mainstream intelligentsia are never in contact with any part of a biological argument. Intellectuals have a concealed adversarial relationship to the mass of the population.

  155. Deduction says:
    @Enrique Cardova

    it is just another variation among Africans, who have the HIGHEST skin color diversity n the world- whether it be the pale, yellowish San, to some of the so-called ‘Red” Igbo, to numerous other variants in between.

    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
    , @Numinous
  156. Qasim says:
    @Enrique Cardova

    Obsolete, thin gruel that most modern scientists don’t use. And pray tell what are indigenous Australians?

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    And calling something obsolete gruel doesn’t magically make it so. And what modern scientists may or may not use just speaks to the ideological committments of modern scientists. This website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.

    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site. It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory? Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.

    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no? Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.

  157. Sean says:
    @Qasim

    They don’t if you use the hide function for certain commenters.

  158. @Ron Unz

    Sounds like a good idea, Ron.

    I’ve looked at some of the lists of National Merit Scholarship semifinalists, but I can’t easily distinguish some of the South Asian names from the African names, and your approach narrows down the prospects pretty well.

    Probably, though, those who have a good sense of, say, African names would be able to spot them reliably enough anyway directly in the list of Merit semifinalists.

  159. vinteuil says:
    @Truth

    But, Truth, you surprising man – to my knowledge (and I follow comments here way more than I should) none of those guys have ever claimed anything of the sort!

    Maybe you could give me a link?

    • Replies: @Truth
  160. @FirstPerson

    My analysis based on medical school cognitive test performance is of course not refined enough to come to any precise results regarding, say, Nigerians and Ghanans (?) from the UK. But the problem with your objection is that there’s almost no way to make the numbers work so that Nigerians and Ghanans do as well as whites on this medical school test.

    There are about 180K Nigerians and 94K Ghanans in England, according to wikipedia. There are about 1.8M blacks in England. So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students — probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.

    But then they pretty much must perform quite poorly compared to whites, because the average for black medical students can’t be 1.14 SD below whites unless this dominant portion also performs poorly.

    You see, there really is no way these numbers can be disaggregated and be consistent with the idea that students of Nigerian or Ghanan ancestry perform nearly as well as whites.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @Deduction
  161. @Deduction

    What is the measurement you are using for the magnitude of difference? And would Swedes have more variation in skin colors than South Indians or less?

  162. Numinous says:
    @Deduction

    Bigger than the difference between Swedes and South Indians?

    There is great skin color variation among South Indians too. You won’t find anyone as pale as a Swede, but there are people who could pass for light-skinned Middle Easterners or Greeks. For example, this lady is a South Indian.

  163. @Qasim

    Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned.

    You probably have never been to Africa. Bantu is a linguistic group and there are lots of peoples within the Bantu linguistic group with skin colors that are different shades of brown than “exceedingly dark-skinned” and this variation occurs for different groups but also within groups as well. But west Africans are mostly not Bantu anyway.

    There is also no evidence of “light skinned elites” in Nigeria. Many of the Igbos are dark brown rather than light brown skinned and many neighboring groups also have light skinned peoples and dark skin colors among them as well shades in between light brown and dark brown. Igbos and neighboring groups vary in skin color just as Europeans and East Asians do even without admixture.

  164. vinteuil says:
    @syonredux

    “Well, he certainly can’t mean me.”

    But, syon, given his response to me above, he *does* mean you…or, at the very least, he doesn’t care to distinguish between you and the others I mentioned (all of whom, so far as I can judge, are equally innocent as charged.)

  165. @Ron Unz

    This is not a good method to resolve this issue. I talked about this in my discussion with candid_observer.

    Harold Ekeh, a Nigerian student who performed very well academically and was an Intel Talent Search semifinalist may not even have taken the PSAT. Nor is there any mention of whether Saheela Ibraheem took the PSAT and got national achievement or national merit recognition. She might have skipped it entirely. I also mentioned in my conversation with candid_observer one national merit semifinalist of Nigerian ancestry that I was acquainted with personally and I was able to find one other semifinalist and one finalist after 15-20 minutes of looking online. None of these sorts of people – people like Ekeh and Ibraheem, who may not even have taken the PSAT, and people like the semifinalists and finalist I mentioned – would be reflected in such a comparison about national achievement scholars even though they are all Nigerian and would be relevant to determining how well Nigerians do.

    You also stated “In addition, Jamaican blacks and others from the Caribbean often have somewhat distinctive first and last names, and perhaps could be roughly estimated as well.

    But this is basically untrue. There are a few English names with some Caribbeans are more fond of than others but this is not as helpful as you think because many of them still have ordinary English names which are not that distinctive and are more or less the same as the English or other European names borne by American blacks.

    In addition there are some black Africans with first and last names that are purely in non-African languages like Hebrew names (because of Christianity), Muslim names (because of Islam), or European (the former president of Nigeria was named Goodluck Johnathan – a combination of European words and a Hebrew Christian name). But this also applies to American blacks, as some have Christian or Muslim names or European names in various combinations also.

  166. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Again, their early use of metal smelting (why the snark word “supposed”?) doesn’t count for much in itself. What counts is the scale of the production. We should also consider the techniques of metallurgy, which appear to be largely of indigenous origin. This was not the case with the Hausa, among whom metallurgy appeared later in time and was largely inspired by North African and Middle Eastern traditions.”

    I didn’t intend it as snark because I’ve heard of a pretty wide range of places and times where metal smelting developed in West Africa. 2,000 BC is the earliest date I’ve heard, but it’s not certain this is where it was first developed indigenously in West Africa, and we know primitive steel was independently developed in Tanzania. I am really not sure where you get the idea that the Hausa developed it much later in time, because the Hausa as a people didn’t come together until the early middle ages and we find metal smelting in other parts of West Africa from well before that.

    The problem with your arguments about the Igbo being likely as intelligent as they are due to their history is that you don’t have much of a coherent timeline or consideration of other aspects of West African history, or atleast presenting some of them for people to properly understand, and variously claiming flat out untrue things about african history. For starters, when were the Igbo known to have been trading heavily with others, or atleast be prominent traders in this region? The paper you cite alludes to this being why so much iron was produced in 765 BC, but what about in 2,000 BC, the earliest one? What was the impetus for the Igbo developing iron so early? Is there any evidence the earliest iron smelting relates to trade? Exactly when do the ancient egyptian beads date to? These beads were found in Igbo-Ukwu, but Igbo-Ukwu dates to the central middle ages. The art at Igbo-Ukwu wasn’t produced until close to well over 1,000 years after the major iron production in 765 BC, and the other major artistic traditions in Nigeria, Ile Ife and Benin, developed a few to several centuries after Igbo-Ukwu, and were equal or greater to the expertise shown in Igbo artwork.

    This also fails to consider all of the places in between Igboland and places far outside of Nigeria that could have acted as middlemen, especially if beads all the way from Ancient Egypt made it down there. Heavy urbanization existed along the Niger river well before Islam (detailed in the video link I posted), and trade has been going on between that region and North Africa for a very long time (to say nothing of the scale in the middle ages). This paper from 1997 finds that Gao, all the way in Mali, acted as a middleman for trade that led to Igbo-Ukwu: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25130610?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents

    Finally, you say their early development of iron-smelting in and of itself isn’t what counts, but the scale of production, and then later, you state that their early development of iron smelting and a market economy is an example of how they developed much more through their own resources and intellect.

    “More snark. Why not say “semi-literate” instead of “pre-literate”? This is supposed to be an academic discussion and not a political debate. Also, it’s natural selection, not social selection.”

    I don’t know if an ideographic script with “possible logarithmic elements” is enough to elevate them to even semi-literate. We also don’t know who invented Nsibidi.

    “Again, you attach too much importance to the trappings of centralized state formation (building of monuments, palaces, etc.) By that line of reasoning, the Ashkenazi Jews were nobodies. For that matter, the English were nobodies for most of their history.”

    I’m not trying to, I’m skeptical of the cognitive demands of many positions in pre-literate cultures, but I think if we take the totality of achievement as indicative of intelligence in Nigeria, the Igbo are outclassed by other groups. To that end, I am skeptical of the cognitive demands of mercantile positions and such in pre-literate civilizations- this is a point raised in Ferguson’s critique of Cochran and Harpending, that the money-lending positions of the Ashkenazi were so intensively selective that it only not only heavily raised intelligence among the Ashkenazi, but this was by way of multiple DRA’s, of which the idea they were so cognitively demanding is overrated, and that there is little actual evidence the DRA’s raise intelligence.

    Regarding your wikipedia citation on the Benin Empire, it does not at all say Portuguese trade was the impetus for Benin’s formation. The Portuguese contacted them in 1485, 45 years after Benin became an empire, not a city-state, so Benin as a city-state existed for even longer before the Portuguese, and urbanization even moreso. The rest merely states that they adopted the name of Benin City after the Portuguese designation. Benin was not formed because of trade with the Portuguese.

    I did not dispute that Oyo formed by then, but Ile Ife was formed earlier and that their art was not produced under the reign of Oyo. Ile Ife as an urban center did not form until the 12th century, but was this really true of the rest of the Yoruba? What does it matter whether it was produced under royal patronage and not trade?

    Kanem-Bornu was in no way a Hausa state, the ethnic groups that composed and founded it are not Hausa, and it has long been centered in Niger and Chad, not northern Nigeria, although Kanem-Bornu did at one point control northeast Nigeria and presumably much of the Hausa.

    “You seem to subscribe to the Truth school of HBD.”

    I don’t. I don’t know why you’re saying this. And now you seem to be implying that the descendants of the Nok devolved and lost the advantages they had, and that in general, people who lose a prior high levle of social development will lose it over time if they don’t have a way of sustaining it. A lot could be said about this, but in the case of the descendants of the Nok, this really stretches credibility. As far as I can tell, we know little about the Nok aside from their artwork, and while that would certainly imply they had established settlements, it seems likely the case the Nok settlements were definitely not as advanced, large or plentiful as their successors, so how could they have devolved? What in the time from when their culture died out until they arose as the other groups later on gave them advantage again?

    And can’t this extend to the Igbo in a way? One of their most exemplary outputs in metal working was their artwork in Igbo-Ukwu, but after Igbo-Ukwu was apparently abandoned, Igbo art seemed to have rarely been made of metal and was mostly wood, and I think is fair to say was greatly inferior.

  167. Ron Unz says:

    Harold Ekeh, a Nigerian student who performed very well academically and was an Intel Talent Search semifinalist may not even have taken the PSAT. Nor is there any mention of whether Saheela Ibraheem took the PSAT and got national achievement or national merit recognition. She might have skipped it entirely.

    Well, my strong impression is that the overwhelming majority of high-performing H.S. students take the PSAT for the prestige and for very lucrative scholarship opportunities it offers, and I can’t see why Nigerian-American students would not do so. One problem with using the Intel, is that it’s a substantially *subjective* competition, hence much less reliable as a metric than an objectively scored test. Similar problems apply with using Presidential Scholarships or Ivy League admissions. The PSAT is also a better measure than the very similar SAT, since the latter can be taken numerous times by sufficiently determined students, with only their highest scores being reported.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  168. @Qasim

    Notice I said 3-4 macro-races. The 4 is there for a reason, as Australoids are often classified as the fourth. Maybe you should read things more carefully before you start doing the lol thing.

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right, for you yourself specifically asserted three races- Quote: “but the macro-division of Mongoloid/Caucasoid/Negroid still stands.” And up above you say nothing about Australians until I mentioned them, nor did you include Australians in your 3-part “macro” races division.

    .
    his website recently published an article by Robert Trivers, the sections on Gould and Lewontin show perfect examples of ideology trumping a dispassionate search for the truth.
    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example? Why are specifics are missing in your alleged “dispassionate search for the truth?”

    .
    Also, simply NOTING the diversity of skin color amongst sub-Saharan Africans is not the same as EXPLAINING said diversity, no matter how many fancy articles you site.
    Actually the citation already explains it. Let’s look at an excerpt of what scholar Relethford says above again- there is nothing “fancy” about it:

    “Previous studies of genetic and craniometric traits
    have found higher levels of within-population diversity
    in sub-Saharan Africa compared to other geographic regions…
    For both measures, the average level of within-population
    diversity is higher in sub-Saharan Africa than in other
    geographic regions. This difference persists even after
    adjusting for a correlation between within-population
    diversity and distance from the equator. Though affected
    by natural selection, skin color variation shows the same
    pattern of higher African diversity as found with other traits.”

    –Relethford JH.. 2001. Human skin color diversity is
    highest in sub-Saharan African populations.
    Hum Biol. 2001 Oct;73(5):629-36.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    .
    It is true than the San have a yellowish complexion. Bantus (the group we are actually discussing), on the other hand, are generally exceedingly dark-skinned. When one sees an African-American with a lighter complexion, one naturally assumes partial European ancestry. So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans.
    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    .
    Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?
    What admixture in pre-history gave the San yellow skin? You make all these sweeping pronouncements, but can produce nothing credible to back them up.

    .
    Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians.
    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians? Once again, you merely assert that it is so, without producing a shred of credible evidence.

    .
    Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.
    But yet again, you only offer your own dubious opinion, without the slightest bit of credible evidence. Precisely when and how was said admixture and how did it affect Igbo intellectual achievement? You made the claim, but you have precious little to support it. When are you going to produce something credible?

    .
    And why is it that the pattern of light-skinned elites has manifested itself over and over throughout world history? South America, the Caribbean, the Middle East, India, and now Nigeria. Weird, no?
    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.” In fact as shown above they did not match the power and sophistication of other more powerful empires and cultures around. And none of these other cultures were ruled by any “light skinned elite.” Since when are the rulers of Benin for example a “light skinned” elite?

    .
    Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.
    The only “addled” person is you, and I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights can “hide” that scholarship, but it still does not change the fact that your claims are both dubious and false.

    • Replies: @Qasim
  169. @candid_observer

    “So between the two, they comprise about 15% of blacks in England. But they are, by your assumption, by a good measure the more able of the blacks in England. Yet only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student. So if they are by a good measure the better students among the blacks, then their numbers should dominate those of medical students — probably in excess of half of them, under your assumptions.”

    This does not follow from my assumptions. I will try to be a bit clearer since I did not get my point across. I certainly do not believe that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, some Kenyans, etc. would constitute up to half of the medical students that are black, let alone be in excess of half. I think that if anything groups from African countries that do not have the kind of trend of immigrants performing well that these groups do have and who are Africans coming from economically and educationally less progressive countries in Africa, plus the Afro-Caribbean blacks that generally do not actually have the same statistics as immigrants from Nigeria, Ghana, etc. would constitute the majority. That that the Nigerians, Ghanaians, etc. would not constitute half or the majority but instead be outnumbered by other groups was the entire idea of my comment (though I did not assume or invent what fraction of the medical students they would constitute, as you did). If you read it again I think you will see that.

    I also do not see the pertinence of your claim that “only quite good students will be in any kind of position to be a medical student” in the context of what I stated. My point is that some black students from different backgrounds will likely be better than others based on other statistics and observed trends for those groups. The UK Clinical Aptitude Test can be taken regardless of whether you are actually a “quite good” student or if you just think that you are quite good. Some black students (Nigerians, Ghanaians, Kenyans, etc.) may be more “quite good” than other black students of different backgrounds yet all, whether mediocre, good, quite good or more than quite good will be allowed to take the test.

  170. Ed says:
    @candid_observer

    None appear to be Nigerian, so much for that.

  171. @Ron Unz

    I am not under the impression that Intel Science Talent Search semifinalist recognition is a more objective measure at all and I did not bring it up to suggest that it is. But I do believe it is a more selective recognition or award than the National Merit Semifinalist list and that belief is based on the actual selectivity of the awards combined with the prestige of the competition for high achieving high school students. My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    It is not unreasonable to suggest that the majority of high-performing high school students do take the PSAT but I do not think one can simply ignore the fact that some may not take it.

    But as I said before the National Achievement list cannot be a good measure of how well Nigerians (relative to their population) are performing compared to American Blacks since some Nigerians just will not show up on the National Achievement list if they are on the National Merit semifinalist and finalist lists.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    , @Deduction
  172. Dipwill says:
    @Qasim

    “Again, the Razib Khan article states that Neanderthal DNA has been found amongst Nigerians. Eurasian admixure DID take place in that region of the world, the only question is whether this helps to explain Igbo intellectual achievement.”

    It didn’t. The idea Neanderthals contributed anything to the intelligence of Eurasians has little basis. Neanderthal and cro-magnon brain size was identical, and larger brain size was typical throughout the world in the past, including Africa and Australia.

    Neanderthal admixture is not found only in Nigerians, it is found in most africans, and originated from about several thousand years with breeding between africans and north africans, not neanderthals themselves, who died out even longer ago.

    There are other african peoples who are lighter than the Igbo who were nonetheless much more primitive than the rest of Africa, like the pygmies, khoisan, sandawe, hadza and some other extinct groups, who were all mostly stone-age hunter-gatherers.

    Stop asking the question (and making digs like “Ideologically addled people such as yourself” when you argue things like this), because it’s based heavily on the finding neanderthal brain size was larger than the average for MODERN humans, not humans around the time neanderthals existed.

  173. anon • Disclaimer says:

    The presence of Neanderthal DNA doesn’t imply either that the neanderthal DNA itself was directly responsible for lighter skin or intelligence only that it implies there might have been Eurasian admixture at some point.

  174. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “In doing so, he comes closer to the HBD position than he may realize.”

    Lollocaust.

    A quick Google search for “Igbo People” reveals that they tend to have a lighter complexion.

    One of the search suggestions was actually “Igbo People Light Skinned”

  175. Ron Unz says:
    @FirstPerson

    My point was that such a person who got Intel semifinalist recognition could still have skipped the PSAT if they felt they didn’t need it as preparation for the SAT and that may be why there is no mention of Ekeh as either a national achievement or national merit semifinalist. In the case of the 15 year old who got a near perfect score on her SAT she might have skipped the PSAT as well since no mention is made of semifinalist or national achievement recognition for her either. I would not just assume that they took it without evidence and the fact they may not have, since it is not something nearly essential like the ACT or SAT is a relevant factor.

    Well, I’ll admit I haven’t been following this very long comment-thread, nor had I ever heard of the particular students you mentioned. But Googling their names quickly gave me more background information, providing a better sense of things.

    Although Harold Ekeh’s 2014 SAT score of 2270 out of 2400 was certainly very good, it would apparently have only placed him at the 99% percentile, so it’s not at all certain that he would have been a PSAT/NMS Semifinalist, which normally targets the 99.5% percentile. The ambiguity reflects the question of whether the listed percentiles refer to all students or just the college-bound students who take the SAT:

    https://secure-media.collegeboard.org/digitalServices/pdf/sat/sat-percentile-ranks-composite-crit-reading-math-writing-2014.pdf

    Meanwhile, the other student you mentioned, Saheela Ibraheem, did much better, apparently getting a 2340 on the SAT at age 15, which would comfortably put her at the 99+%, even when measured against the older students who normally take the SAT, so it seems quite likely she would have been an NMS Semifinalist. However, I think students usually take the PSAT/NMS test at age 16, so it’s very possible that she just left school early for college, and didn’t bother taking the test.

    All of this was based on five minutes of Googling, so please don’t treat it as definitive.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @FirstPerson
  176. The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed but I will just state these five things.

    1. Most if not all Eurasians are understood to have some slight neanderthal DNA.
    2. Many Fulani are understood to have have slight Eurasian DNA.
    3. Some Hausa are understood to have slight Eurasian DNA. Significantly less than Fulani, but it is there.
    4. Historically the Yoruba kept some Hausa as slaves when the Oyo empire was thriving.
    5. Some Fulani and Yoruba intermarried after the Fulani took over the Yoruba city of Illorin in the 19th century.

    Fulani and Hausa are northern Nigerians and nobody has denied that they have some slight Eurasian DNA derived from interaction with North Africans, with Fulanis having the most (but certainly not as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa in eastern Africa). Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Hence a slight bit of neanderthal DNA in a few Yoruba would imply that at one point some Hausas, perhaps Hausa slaves, might have have intermarried into a Yoruba family in the recent past (in the area around Illorin especially) or it might mean that some Fulanis married into a Yoruba family in the recent past.

    Unless one can show that other Nigerians from the southern area of Nigeria have neanderthal DNA in areas where it would be improbable because these areas had no interactions with any of the aforementioned peoples from northern Nigeria that interacted with North Africans there is no real significance to some Eurasian DNA in a few Nigerians because the likelihood of such is already well known.

    However this comment thread was started not because of Fulani or Hausa who do not currently generally have notable educational achievement in or outside of Nigeria (mostly due to poverty and the resistance to embracing modernization and western education that many of them exhibit) but because of a southern Nigerian people called the Igbo who have no history of interaction with Fulanis and Hausas before the formation of Nigeria and who have never been shown to have any Eurasian DNA. Even the Yoruba have no Eurasian DNA except for those occasional cases where those Yoruba people have some Fulani or Hausa ancestry. Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.

    On the “light skinned elites” claimed earlier. The Igbo have many dark brown skinned people among them just as they have some light brown skinned people among them and many that are in between dark brown and light brown. Harold Ekeh, or Emmanuel Ohuabunwa (another high achieving Nigerian student) or the famous writer Chimamanda Adichie – all of these people are dark skinned and Igbo and are intellectually gifted individuals. There are more like them and I have met such people personally.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  177. @Ron Unz

    That is not unreasonable. However I already know of students who were National Merit Semifinalists but got lower scores in the SAT than Ekeh did.

    Here is one:

    “Kathryn Knight – North Central High School
    Kathryn Knight has a 4.0 grade average and a total score of 2130 on the SAT. She has taken every AP class offered, earning straight A’s in three AP history courses and scores of 5 on two AP history tests. She is a National Merit Semi-Finalist and a Distinguished AP Scholar.”

    http://www.spokanevalleyonline.com/articles_svnews/2013/042613_2013%20Spokane%20Scholars%20Foundation%20Award%20recipients%20named.html

    But here is someone with a higher SAT score who did not make the semifinalist list and instead made the “commended student” list (which is not as prestigious, meaning this person did not do as well on their PSAT as the person above):

    “Natalie Pilgeram has a 4.0 grade average, a total score of 2350 on the SAT and a 5 on the U.S. History subject test. She has completed four AP and two honors courses in the social sciences with straight A grades and has been designated as an AP Scholar and a National Merit Commended Student.”

    I do not think there is a one-to-one correspondence between SAT score and being a National Merit semi-finalist although I believe there would be a very strong correlation between a high SAT score and being a National Merit semifinalist. I just do not believe that we can say for certain that if for example one person got a 2300 on their SAT and another person got a 2100 that the person with the 2300 must have done better on the PSAT. That might be jumping to conclusions. I came across some other examples earlier of people who got a lower SAT score than Ekeh but were National Merit semifinalists and I could look for them again if you need more evidence.

  178. Truth says:
    @Qasim

    So why is a similar thought process dismissed out of hand amongst Africans? Because the alleged admixture took place in prehistory?

    LOL! Hey Dawg, you just splintered the wood beams in your foundation. I know all you have is a hammer, but you aren’t supposed to use it on screws!

  179. @Ron Unz

    But I do understand and agree with your idea that it is not guaranteed that Ekeh would get National Merit semifinalist if we could extrapolate where he might place in the PSAT from his SAT score. It is just that at that top tier of students, the SAT scores may not correspond exactly with who got the higher PSAT scores as the examples from that Spokane Valley website show. I do think the fact that there is no mention of him being a National Achievement Scholar and no mention of him being a National Merit Commended Student may mean he simply did not take the PSAT, because even if he took it and did not qualify for National Merit semifinalist he might have been able to get on either of those two lists. I think that an example like his – where a student whose general academic performance is stellar but the person has no National Merit recognition, not even for the lists that have lower cutoff marks – means it might be wise not to ignore the likelihood that not every high achieving student may take the PSAT.

  180. Dipwill says:
    @FirstPerson

    You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel. This is a very old idea, and I’ve come to realize has virtually no basis and functions basically as a kneejerk explanation people resort to when confronted with the reality of civilization in that region. When you really look at the nature of the mixed populations there, the Fulani and Tuareg (along with how the black populations are clearly homogenous by how dark they are, or how negroid looking many Tuareg are), the whole thing kind of falls apart. The Fulani and Tuareg have long been overwhelmingly nomads and the Fulani didn’t really make any attempts at state building until after the fall of Songhai. The Fulani, before this, were variously exploited by the settled african states. The Tuareg about 20 years ago numbered just over 1 million, and when you compare this to the Fulani, who number over 40 million today and are found in most countries in West Africa, it stands to reason they haven’t had a very extensive urban history. You could undoubtedly say the Tuareg have been highly economically influential throughout the region’s history (they still play a major role in the salt trade and founded Timbuktu), but they have not been state builders or rulers.

    So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  181. Deduction says:
    @candid_observer

    Comparing medical scores is unfair. Black medical students in Britain are able to benefit from racial discrimination and so have a lower hurdle to jump when entering medical school.

    It would be very surprising therefore if they did not have a lower score on that test.

    • Replies: @candid_observer
  182. Deduction says:
    @FirstPerson

    I really don’t understand why you’re pursuing an argument about population genetics with a sample size of one.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @FirstPerson
  183. @22pp22

    GCSE’s are largely based on coursework and cheating is rife. A-levels and university finals exams are a better proxy.

    I made the same comment to Chisala’s original article. I call more PC propaganda here.

    Show me the objective g-loaded tests like SAT, IQ, ASVAB.

    Still, Frost went a long way toward a more convincing argument here. I still want to see the objective test data.

  184. @Dipwill

    You are wrong to claim there’s no eurasian admixture in southern nigerians (and that horn africans are heavily eurasian, but that’s another topic), because it has been verified that faint Neanderthal admixture exists in most africans, primarily by way of interactions between the founder populations of black africans and non-black north africans in the sahara several thousand years ago.

    How can this have been verified for “most Africans” when detailed genetic studies have not even been carried out on most Africans? Are you sure about this?

    I did not claim that “horn Africans are heavily eurasian.” I said the Fulani, even having some slight Eurasian admixture as they do, do not have as much as some peoples in the Horn of Africa.

    Since you bring up the Fulani and mixture in west africa, it’s worth touching on the idea that arabs/berbers and mixed populations in west africa are the ones who are responsible for the muslim states and such in the sahel.

    I did not claim that Arabs or Berbers are responsible for those mulsim states. I have read about the actual history of that area in great detail long before this comment thread. But I see why you would bring this up for other people reading who may be less informed.

    “So the idea the Igbo are mixed (despite having no identifiably non-african features aside from lighter skin color) and this accounts for their achievement is even more far-fetched.”

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are lighter skinned unmixed non-Igbos in other parts of Nigeria. Yes there are light skinned Igbos and Igbos probably have a greater proportion of them than some other peoples nearby (although other people like the Annang, Ibibio, and Ekoi also seem to have similar proportion whereas peoples outside of the more heavily forested areas of west Africa, in the savannah and desert areas often seem to have fewer light skinned people) but having variation in skin color (dark, light or in between) is nothing unique to the Igbo and visitors to Nigeria have noted such variation in skin color among Nigerians, as among black Africans generally, even before there was a country or colony called Nigeria.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  185. @Deduction

    What detailed arguments have I made about population genetics? I have mainly discussed the national merit scholarship issue and the historical claims made by Frost in his replies to comments on his article.

  186. Sean says:

    The point is not whether there was admixture of genes for high IQ into the Igbo, it is whether the mode of existence of the Igbo was different to other sub Saharan Africans, and could have favoured high IQ genes (of whatever origin) over others in the Igbo gene pool.

    It is quite possible Igbo have higher cognitive ability than working class whites, but Lambeth is perhaps a place where the average school performance of white children is deceptively low (or deliberately lowered by the system)

    WHITE working class children are being “marginalised” at school after being forced to follow a multicultural timetable that shuns British traditions, according to research. [in Lambeth]

    The is similar confusion about how Neanderthal genes became common in Europeans. The Neanderthal genes for colouring needed a selection pressure to become common. Light skin and diverse hair and eye colours became selected for among the Ice Age steppe tundra hunters, at the end of the Ice Age the hunters followed the reindeer herds north to Scandinavia as the ice retreated north. The finding of light skin and eye genes (and probably blonde hair) in pre agricultural era Swedish (Motala) hunter gatherers proves that. The Motala hunter gatherers have genetic similarities with the Yamnaya who did not arrive in Sweden until millennia after the Motola people were alive . So some of the Ice Age Europeans wandered east at the end of the Ice Age and mixed with other peoples became the Yamnaya, and them moved west to conquer much of north Europe and contribute quite a bit of the ancestry of modern Europeans.

  187. @Stan D Mute

    I do not think there are that many Nigerian origin (or other direct African origin) applicants to the U.S. armed forces although I have read of some people in the armed forces that are of Nigerian origin, so ASVAB data may be quite difficult to gather.

    Separating SAT scores by origin rather than just race would also be quite difficult to do accurately which may be why no one has done it yet.

    Chisala gave his opinion on the objections to his reference to the GSCE data in this comment on the original article here:

    http://www.unz.com/article/the-iq-gap-is-no-longer-a-black-and-white-issue/#comment-988418

    I do think that more data needs to be collected before reaching any definite conclusion but I doubt there is any deliberate propaganda at work.

  188. @Deduction

    Also, I do not think you understand what the thrust of my argument was. Candid_observer believed that national merit semifinalist data from Nigerians is the measure to use to determine whether Nigerians are performing at the same level as other groups that are performing well, yet there are even recent examples of high achieving Nigerian students covered in the media (there may be more that are not covered by the media) who may not have taken the PSAT.

    • Replies: @Deduction
  189. Dipwill says:
    @FirstPerson

    You are misconstruing what I’m arguing because I wasn’t saying that to argue against you, I was highlighting the speciousness of arguments about non-africans being behind the achievements of medieval west africa since this comment thread has been skirting it.

    But yes, I am sure neanderthal admixture has been found in most africans- here is one paper: http://anthropogenesis.kinshipstudies.org/2013/10/neandertal-admixture-in-africans-a-back-migration-confirmed/

    This paper claims it’s primarily in east africans (including the isolated, stone age sandawe and hadza) which surprises me a bit, but there is indeed neanderthal admixture in west africans as well.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  190. @Deduction

    It is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Moreover, the number of blacks in England who take the medical school cognitive test seem to be in rough proportion to their numbers in the relevant cohort — about 6%. (While the overall proportion of blacks in England is about 3.5%, they have about half again as many proportionately in the relevant young cohort as whites.)

    This means that comparing the relative scores of whites vs. blacks in England who do well on this metric is basically quite fair, especially when the absolute difference — over 1 SD — is so great. Minor adjustments due to relative representation are not going to have a significant impact on the implications of those starkly different numbers.

  191. I am really not sure where you get the idea that the Hausa developed it much later in time, because the Hausa as a people didn’t come together until the early middle ages and we find metal smelting in other parts of West Africa from well before that.

    There seems to be some confusion over the term “metallurgy.” It’s not just smelting. It’s also metalworking and techniques like wire making, soldering, and riveting.

    The problem with your arguments about the Igbo being likely as intelligent as they are due to their history is that you don’t have much of a coherent timeline [...] when were the Igbo known to have been trading heavily with others, or atleast be prominent traders in this region? The paper you cite alludes to this being why so much iron was produced in 765 BC, but what about in 2,000 BC, the earliest one? What was the impetus for the Igbo developing iron so early? Is there any evidence the earliest iron smelting relates to trade? Exactly when do the ancient egyptian beads date to? These beads were found in Igbo-Ukwu, but Igbo-Ukwu dates to the central middle ages. The art at Igbo-Ukwu wasn’t produced until close to well over 1,000 years after the major iron production in 765 BC, and the other major artistic traditions in Nigeria, Ile Ife and Benin, developed a few to several centuries after Igbo-Ukwu

    With due respect, you seem to be a bit confused about the timeline. Igbo-Ukwu dates to the 9th century, which is hardly the central middle ages. Perhaps I should put this all in point form to make it clear:

    2,000 BC – earliest evidence of iron smelting in the Niger Delta. This may or may not involve ancestral Igbo and it may or may not indicate smelting for trade.

    765 BC – evidence of large-scale iron smelting in excess of local needs. This may be evidence of production for trade.

    9th century – advanced metallurgy at Igbo-Ukwu (wire making, soldering, riveting). Copper, bronze, and iron manufacture. Evidence of metallurgy at this site at later dates, suggesting continuous use up to the historic period.

    11th-12th centuries – assemblages of beads from Gao (eastern Mali) that are very similar to beads recovered from Igbo-Ukwu. Evidence of long-distance trade.

    1500 – mid-19th century – Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads.

    late 19th century onward – British colonial rule. Emigration of Igbo merchants to west and north of Nigeria.

    My main point is twofold:

    1- Metallurgy began in the Niger Delta much earlier than at other sites in West Africa. It also reached an advanced level of sophistication that in some ways surpassed what we see in Europe and the Middle East of that time period. Finally, this tradition of metallurgy seems to have been largely of indigenous origin.

    2. Comparable metallurgy (not smelting) began later at other sites in West Africa. It also seems to have been made possible by royal patronage in centralized states. I suggested that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) provided these African rulers with the means to pay for this metalworking. You seem to disagree with me on this point, and bitterly so. This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part.

    Let’s be honest with each other. Does it bother you that some African groups may be as intelligent as most Eurasians? Is that the underlying issue? Normally, people don’t feel so bitter over such issues as to the degree to which state formation in West Africa was stimulated by the slave trade.

    I think if we take the totality of achievement as indicative of intelligence in Nigeria, the Igbo are outclassed by other groups.

    Which groups?

    this is a point raised in Ferguson’s critique of Cochran and Harpending, that the money-lending positions of the Ashkenazi were so intensively selective

    Trade isn’t simply money lending. It’s also responding to your economic environment in a much more dynamic way than is the case with simple farmers, serfs, or people working in patron/client relationships. This is a point where I’ve disagreed with Greg.

    Regarding your wikipedia citation on the Benin Empire, it does not at all say Portuguese trade was the impetus for Benin’s formation. The Portuguese contacted them in 1485, 45 years after Benin became an empire, not a city-state, so Benin as a city-state existed for even longer before the Portuguese, and urbanization even moreso.

    I cited wiki because I didn’t want to cite a French-language source that most people here would not understand. But let’s quote the Wiki passage in question:

    “By the 15th century, Edo as a system of protected settlements expanded into a thriving city-state. In the 15th century, the twelfth Oba in line, Oba Ewuare the Great (1440–1473) would expand the city-state to an empire.

    It was not until the 15th century during the reign of Oba Ewuare the Great that the kingdom’s administrative centre, the city Ubinu, began to be known as Benin City by the Portuguese, and would later be adopted by the locals as well.”

    The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time).

    I don’t wish to belabor this question ad infinitum. I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible.

    What does it matter whether it was produced under royal patronage and not trade?

    Because royal patronage implies an ability to recruit (or abduct) talented individuals from a wide geographical area. It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  192. Qasim says:
    @Enrique Cardova

    Maybe you should be more careful about what you right,

    Fair point. After all, one can never be too careful in one’s righting. or reeding for that matter.

    I think a main problem we are having is that my comments are not addressed to people like you. If I was a masochist who wanted to try to convert the un-convertible, I would post on salon or huffingtonpost. But this is unz, where Steven Sailer lives, I assume a basic familiarity (and affinity) with HBD. Furthermore, this is a message board where brevity is important, and based on the general level of commenting on this site, I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    Peter Frost was the one who first said “You are assuming 3-4 races”. I immediately knew he was referring to the Rushton type classification, which is Caucasoid, Mongoloid, Negroid, and Australoid. But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn’t seem important. Again, this is something that doesn’t need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    Curiously enough, you can proffer nothing specific to support your claims. How exactly does Lewontin support you for example?

    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin’s fallacy etc.

    As can be seen Relethford references (a) the already greater diversity of sub-Saharan Africans, which takes in genetic diversity and craniometric traits- nothing surprising given the evolution of anatomically modern humans in Africa. The origin point has greater diversity- everything else is a SUBSET of that diversity. Skin color is simply consistent with said pattern as Relethford shows. (b) Natural selection. This is basic Anthropology 101- nothing “fancy” about it.

    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?

    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors? Your beloved does not say, and that is why your endless citations of him are pointless.

    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..

    But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    And as far as it being “basic Anthropology 101″, does this lecture come before or after the lecture on how race is a completely social construct? I am sure “Gender is a social construct” is basic Womyn’s Studies 101, but who cares?

    You need to go through your thought process logically, for your notion that lighter skin in Africa must be due to some sort of “race mix” is contradicted by your own example. You mention the San, and admit they have pale skin, but don’t seem to realize that your own statement contradicts your thought process. How did the San get yellow skin? Ancient Chinese colonists to the Kalahari or the Cape? Where is the evidence of these mysterious “Asiatic race mixers”? You don’t have any.

    Again, my only “mistake” was assuming you could make the sort of mental leaps that people with an IQ of say 120 make automatically.

    I DID make it clear we were talking not about the San, who have a nearly universal yellowish complexion and are often classified as another race (BUT I THOUGHT YOU SAID THERE WERE 4!!! When discussing Africa, Bantus, San, and Pygmies are often classified as 3 separate races (read syon’s comment #130 if you are still confused). Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San’s generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing. Now it is true I said light skin in African Americans is immediately thought to be the result of white admixture, so why not the same in Africans. But I assumed you knew we were still talking about Bantus (as I said Bantus are the group we are actually discussing). But for you, I will restate is as: When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    So again, I do not assume EVERY African group has generally very dark skin. Not the San. Not the Boers. Not the people in the Maghreb. The Bantus only. Bantus Bantus Bantus.

    But even if this is so, how did said Neanderthal DNA produce light skin in Nigerians?

    Again, a small mental leap you were not able to make. So this one time I will spoonfeed you. Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    What I do assume is that Eurasians likely had lighter skin than Bantus. So any offspring between Eurasians and Bantus would likely have lighter skin than Bantus without Eurasian admixture. Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    No actually what’s weird is your confused, laughable logic. The Igbo were no “light-skinned elite.”

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I link to credible articles that debunk the rubbish you are pushing. You seem to be scared of actual credible scholarship- which is why you continuously try to avoid it. You and other intellectual lightweights

    You endlessly link to articles in the vain hopes that breadth of knowledge can substitute for depth of intellect and insight. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way. I am not scared of your “credible” scholarship (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).
    I just think looking at 50 leaves under an electron microscope is not the best way to comprehend the forest. Also, as we went over with the Relethford thing, what an article says and the ideologically addled conclusions you reach from them are two vastly different things. And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn’t mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    I know you will never believe me, but you are not even half as smart as you think, and all this lightweight stuff and lols are just projection. So be it. I leave you to snark away and write 20 more posts at your leisure.

    A couple of last thoughts. The amount of pompous bullshittery on this comment thread is a sight to behold. Look at FirstPerson’s comment #176.

    The problem bedeviling people wondering about neanderthal admixture being found among a few Nigerians is the poor lack of knowledge of the history of that region that some here seem to have. I can go into detail if needed

    Fulanis came to Nigeria in the 16th century and again in the 18th century so any slight Eurasian DNA that they contributed to any peoples to the south of them has nothing to do with “ancient Eurasian migration” but to recent intermarriage and assimilation.

    Perhaps geneticists or genetics obsessed amateur anthropologists would do better to read more about the peoples they are speculating about in detail. If they do this they can avoid making the wrong assumption that some slight Eurasian DNA in (or derived from) some northern Nigerians who derived it from Northern Africans is evidence of ancient Eurasian admixture of Igbos or similar nonsense.

    Now let’s quote some snippets from the aforementioned Razib Khan article posted on this site in December…

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Sorry for the long post, that will be all from me. And to all those high-achieving Igbos out there, keep up the good work! :)

  193. Dipwill says:

    “There seems to be some confusion over the term “metallurgy.” It’s not just smelting. It’s also metalworking and techniques like wire making, soldering, and riveting.”

    If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    “With due respect, you seem to be a bit confused about the timeline. Igbo-Ukwu dates to the 9th century, which is hardly the central middle ages. Perhaps I should put this all in point form to make it clear:”

    This is getting a bit too semantic- the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    With regards to your timeline, this is where I think things get pretty tenuous. We find indigenous iron smelting in the Igbo region in 2,000 BC, but we don’t know why it was developed here first or if this involved the ancestral Igbo, and whether this was the only place in west africa where metal working was indigenous. About 1,300 years later, we find heavy iron production indicative of outside trade. They do not produce advanced art at a single city until even much later on, and only centuries later do they dominate trade in this region (and beforehand, were not unique among west africans in engaging in long term trade).

    I just do not see this as being a vehicle for selection that made them notably more intelligent than other Nigerians. It strikes me as a large amount of speculation with generally scattered periods of achievement that are arguably not particularly notable compared to other west african groups.

    “Let’s be honest with each other. Does it bother you that some African groups may be as intelligent as most Eurasians? Is that the underlying issue? Normally, people don’t feel so bitter over such issues as to the degree to which state formation in West Africa was stimulated by the slave trade.”

    No? I am disputing you on the basis of the reasons why the Igbo are supposedly so intelligent. I am not trying to exert “bitterness”, and I don’t know why you think I am resistant to the idea they could be as intelligent as must eurasians- they probably are. I do not think that their status as traders, or early adoption of metal smelting is what made them likely more intelligent. If you want me to be honest, I see it as an extension of a tendency in these circles to grossly overrate the cognitive demands of mercantile positions in pre-modern cultures. I think it is getting particularly far-fetched when this is being extended to the Igbo and their history, and I think you are overstating how precocious and unique they are compared to other west african groups, and by extension, are wrongfully downplaying the achievements of other west africans.

    “Which groups?”

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    “Trade isn’t simply money lending. It’s also responding to your economic environment in a much more dynamic way than is the case with simple farmers, serfs, or people working in patron/client relationships. This is a point where I’ve disagreed with Greg. ”

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.

    “I cited wiki because I didn’t want to cite a French-language source that most people here would not understand. But let’s quote the Wiki passage in question:”

    I didn’t mean to come off as snide about saying “Wikipedia citation”, I was just stating what you were referring to without quoting an entire passage from your post.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived (and it does not say trade with the Portuguese is what led to the creation of Benin city and their empire). It would be helpful if you could provide evidence that they were, but even then, I find it questionable how extensive trade with them was, considering how much further north they were, and especially how strong portuguese influence was in later Benin artwork (arab/berber influence seems virtually non-existent.)

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage? The Igbo’s most advanced art occurred in only one city and nowhere else, just like the greatest art on the part of the Edo and Yoruba. The Igbo have generally seemed to occupy a relatively large area and have maintained some sort of distinct identity despite being so decentralized and rural- haven’t they engaged in warfare, conquest and slavery as well? The largest, most militaristic state of the Yoruba, Oyo, did not develop until after Ile Ife, and Ife’s art began not particularly long after it was formed as an actual city. And they, like the Igbo, forgot the artwork produced at Ife. Only in Benin was their artwork sustained from when it first began, even after Benin fell into decline and was conquered by the end of the 19th century.

  194. If groups like the Igbo are significantly smarter than other Blacks, such as West Indian Blacks descended from slaves, then it’s about time they stopped being recipients of affirmative action.

    High IQ Blacks should be helping other Blacks by starting businesses and employing or marrying lower IQ blacks, not securing cushy government jobs at the expense of working class whites.

    And UK employment figures suggest that are plenty of lower IQ Blacks in the UK who need help:

    http://www.theguardian.com/society/2012/mar/09/half-uk-young-black-men-unemployed.

  195. @Stan D Mute

    Coursework-driven assessment also tends to favour girls at the expense of boys. I remember when continuous coursework (known in Australia and New Zealand as internal assessment) came in the late 1980s. The headmasters of boy’s secondary schools opposed it on the grounds that boys tend to deal with exam stress better than girls and have a lower boredom tolerance.

    In private schools in Australia and New Zealand an increasing number of students are doing Cambridge International Exams rather than continuous coursework qualifications.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
  196. @Dipwill

    I was not under the impression that you were “arguing against me” I just found that you misread what I said about Horn of Africans.

    I also disagree with your claim about “most Africans” and neanderthal admixture because you have not provided the required proof and I am not aware of any proof of such for other groups. I was already aware of the east African neanderthal DNA discussed in that paper but we are discussing Igbos.

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
  197. @candid_observer

    I am not agreeing with Deduction’s comment or anything but I just want to point out that regardless of all of this, different groups of blacks in the UK simply do not have the same statistics in other areas – certainly the Afro-Caribbean blacks do not have the same statistics by any means as the Nigerians. So the “black” category of that UK CAT is kind of worthless and misleading for the purposes of resolving the issue discussed in this comment thread.

  198. @Peter Frost

    1500 – mid-19th century – Igbo domination of regional trade in salt, cloth, and beads.

    There is no evidence for this but perhaps you mean that in their particular part of Nigeria they dominated regional trade in those things but for other parts of Nigeria they did not dominate any of that trade.

    This is the case with another commenter who sees it as proof of gross incompetence on my part.

    I have not called you incompetent yet, I have just implied that you seem unwilling to do more basic research and gain a rudimentary understanding of the area you are writing about yet are unreasonably adamant in holding to your strange interpretation of the regional history of the area.

    The Portuguese arrived in this region in 1471, when they discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present. They were trading in gold and slaves (so the slave trade was already present at that time).

    They did not arrive there because they “discovered that Arab and Berber traders were already present” and there is no evidence that they discovered Arab and Berber traders “already present” in Benin when they arrived. Plus much of the trade was in pepper and gold was not a major article of trade for Benin but perhaps you mean it was what the Portuguese were trading in.

    I was simply arguing that the slave trade provided the Benin rulers with the means that made royal patronage of metalworking possible.

    And you would be wrong again since there is Benin royal art that predates that time but regardless this does not address the issue of the Ife royal art which has even more pieces that predate that time.

    It also implies a centralization of wealth flows, with much wealth being concentrated in the hands of a few individuals. This was not the case with the Igbo, among whom power was much more diffusely distributed.

    Do you realize that the finds at Igbo Ukwu have been interpreted by some (including by Thurstan Shaw, the man who excavated most of them) as associated with a traditional divine kingship in that area? Some of the Igbo Ukwu items – a flywhisk, a scabbard, a staff, a bronze belt, etc. – could easily have been part of a royal regalia. Why assume there was no “royal patronage” in making the Igbo Ukwu art when it was concentrated in one area and seems to include items often associated with kingship.

  199. @Qasim

    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes.

    There are lots of dark skinned Igbos and there are other peoples like the Ibibio, Ekoi and Annang that have as many light skinned people in their populations as the Igbo yet are not as “elite” in terms of intellectual or economic achievement in modern times as some other peoples in Nigeria that do not have as great a proportion of light skinned people.

    What is more interesting is that they observed Eurasian admixture within Yoruba people. This admixture has been suggested by others, as the Yoruba have traces of Neandertal ancestry. This group dates the admixture back to nearly 10,000 years ago, so it as likely associated with goings on that were trans-Saharan. If that is the case these were almost certain quasi-Eurasian hunter-gatherers, and their ancestry might have been diminished in current North African groups subject to waves of farmers issuing from the east during the Neolithic. But there is also admixture with Eurasians further east in Uganda among Bantu groups.

    Though the Eurasian admixture story among these populations is fascinating, there is also nuance in the input of hunter-gatherer ancestry within West African and Bantu populations. First, I suspect that these estimates are low bounds, because they don’t have exact reference populations. Some of the hunter-gatherers mixed into the Igbo and Bantu groups may have been more like agriculturalists than the extant hunter-gatherer groups within Africa.

    The only complicating issue is that of Eurasian admixture; it seems likely that for very old admixture events we’re seeing underestimates, or they aren’t picked up. In other words, the “reference” Sub-Saharan Africans themselves are compounds of people who remained within Africa, and Out of Africa.

    So, other than the fact that you were off on the time of Neanderthal admixture by ohhh about 9500 years and incorrectly limited said mixture to Northern Nigerians everything you said was totally correct! Way to clear things up!!”

    You seem to be having difficulty with reading comprehension.

    1. I said the neanderthal ancestry in Yoruba is from Hausa or Fulani and similar northern Nigerian groups not that it was limited to Northern Nigerians and I said that Fulani came to Nigeria in the 16th and 18th century which they in fact did. Nobody knows when Hausa or Fulani acquired their Eurasian ancestry but I have no problem with it being 10,000 years ago at all – after all the Hausa speak an Afroasiatic language and may have intermarried with other Afroasiatic language groups that have Eurasian ancestry thousands of years ago before they diverged from other Afroasiatic language populations and migrated to their present location in Nigeria. Similarly with the Fulani and their interaction with North Africans thousands of years ago before moving into Nigeria in the 16th and 18th centuries.

    The fact of Hausa or Fulanis acquiring such Eurasian ancestry perhaps 10,000 years ago and then some of these Hausa and Fulani marrying Yorubas says literally nothing about Eurasian ancestry in Igbos and nobody has found actual Eurasian ancestry in Igbos.

    2. I did not say Eurasian ancestry was not present in other parts of Africa. I addressed why it was found even in a southern Nigerian group like the Yoruba and explained that some northern Nigerians were already known to have Eurasian ancestry. Read before jumping to conclusions.

    3. Uganda had a significant Arab presence in the past and there were Arab merchants there during the slave trade and slave raids, plus some of them could have easily intermarried with other east African peoples that are already known to have some Eurasian ancestry obtained long ago. It has no significance in the context of this discussion.

    4. Razib Khan, like you, is amateurish.

    Again, this combination of absolute certitude and absolute talking out of one’s arse is par for the course for people who can’t bear to think that race and intelligence may be strongly linked.

    The irony here is overwhelming.

    You know basically nothing about the region in question yet are absolutely certain that your ridiculous ideas are true.

    And there have been multiple comments insisting that other than a lighter skin color, the Igbo have no sign of Eurasian admixture. Do these people think that repeating this statement often enough will somehow make it true? Have these people actually seen many Igbos? There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie, and that there are endless message boards on the internet asking whether the Igbo are mixed-race, and why some Igbos themselves believe they have some Jewish ancestry.

    Have you ever been to Nigeria or seen Igbos in their part of Nigeria? Have you actually seen many Igbos?

    Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?

    You seem generally poorly informed.

    • Replies: @Truth
  200. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:
    @Difference Maker

    Bullshit. Black and brown people are unable to sustain, let alone _advance_ western civilization. An England with only Igbos would turn into a third-world shithole. So we need white european gentile elites who run the show in the background still.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  201. Truth says:
    @FirstPerson

    “Have you ever been to other areas Nigeria? Have you actually seen many other non-Igbo Nigerians?
    You seem generally poorly informed.”

    Yeah, but to be honest he has read this site for a few years. What other source of education need a man? I mean, as the man posted himself, he dont’ care how many limp-wristed, homosexual, commie, r-TEE-culls you post, he dun met a cupla them EEE-bow fellers in college…

    “Ideologically addled people such as yourself can write 20 posts and link to 50 articles all you want, the individual trees do not obscure the forest at all.”

  202. Truth says:
    @Qasim

    “There is a reason biracial Thandie Newton was cast to play an Igbo woman in a recent movie,”

    LMAO! Why yes there is Old Bean, It’s just to bad that you ain’t smart enough to figure out what it is.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/11/zoe-saldana-nina-simone-criticism_n_7564452.html

    I love this Kat. He’s rapidly turning into one of my favorite posters.

  203. Truth says:
    @vinteuil

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    They spend their time whore-mongering with the Japanese girls, getting wasted on sakki, demanding things, and not taking baths. These were of course their customs, and they were amongst heathens, so why wouldn’t they take a little advantage?

    Finally after some time, they got around to a little bit of philosophical discussion with the monks, however instead of trying to understand, one of the Christians took it upon himself to play “faith gotcha” with them, asking the sort of philosophical questions for which there is not answer such as “If God is all-powerful, can he create a rock to heavy for himself to lift.”

    The monk, being confused by the foreigner’s style of “mutual learning”, stopped him for a second and asked him:

    “Sir, why is it that you are so concerned about the condition of your beard, when the executioner long ago removed your head?

    • Replies: @syonredux
    , @vinteuil
  204. Dipwill says:
    @Anonymous

    How did this make it through? I’m surprised this site doesn’t have a report feature.

  205. If that’s the case, what did the hausa create in these regards that was absent or much less common before that date?

    You’ve got it backwards. The Hausa were creating nothing in metallurgy that was comparable to what the Igbo were doing in the 9th century. And when the Hausa did begin doing comparable work, it was under the influence of Middle Eastern traditions of metallurgy.

    the 9th century could be said to be nearing the beginning of the central middle ages, but either way, it was a long time after the major iron production of 765 BC.

    You’re surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn’t that consistent with what we see elsewhere?

    The other groups that have been brought up in these comments, such as the Yoruba, Edo, Hausa, but arguably many others in West Africa.

    You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.

    Regardless, I think it could be argued that mercantile positions back then were not as cognitively demanding as they claim, and this is what Ferguson heavily touches upon.

    Actually, he doesn’t. His argument was that “wealthy” Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn’t produced by the “wealthy.” It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population — small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.

    Regardless, the wikipedia article doesn’t say anything about there being arab and berber traders in Benin when the portuguese arrived

    “After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I’m puzzled why you insist on it.

    Still, how can we be sure the art at Igbo-Ukwu didn’t involve patronage?

    We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    I think the fundamental problem here is that you have trouble believing that natural selection can produce anything significant over the time scale in question (approx. one thousand years). This is why you consider genetic drift to be more plausible, even though genetic drift is much slower and more dependent on bottlenecks (for which we have no evidence).

    Keep in mind that the pace of human genetic evolution increased by over a hundred-fold some 10,000 years ago. Genetically speaking, much more has happened over the past 10, ooo years in our species than over the previous 100,000. I could take you by the hand and walk you through the math of gene-culture coevolution, but I think it would be better for you to read up on the subject. Yes, what I’m talking about is theoretically feasible.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    , @FirstPerson
  206. How did this make it through? I’m surprised this site doesn’t have a report feature.

    It doesn’t. I have no control over the comments. Unfortunately, it’s that kind of comment that gets me in trouble with other people.

  207. @Peter Frost

    So Peter you call that piece of rock (or bronze snail shell) super intelligent Igbo “metallurgy” of 9th century? ROFL

    Here, let’s check out the real metallurgy:

    — 12th-11th centuries BCE: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanxingdui

    —c. 1000 BC: Zhou Dynasty metallurgy : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zhou_dynasty

    – 206 BC: Qin Dynasty metallurgy:

    (Qin marked the peak of metallurgy of bronze items.Try compare that bronze snail of Igbo to 1,000 years earlier Qin Dynasty bronze works of Han Chinese. Not even funny. )

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    http://pinstake.com/is-a-collection-of-terracotta-sculptures-depicting-the-armies-of-qi/aHR0cDp8fHd3d15lYXN5Y2hpbmF0cmF2ZWxwbGFubmVyXmNvbXx3cC1jb250ZW50fHVwbG9hZHN8MjAxNHwwMnxxaW4tc2hpLWh1YW5nLXRlcnJhY290dGEtYXJteS0xXmpwZw==/

    – 206 BCE – 220 CE: Han dynasty metallurgy: (shall we go for iron and steel – making of han Dynasty?)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science_and_technology_of_the_Han_dynasty

    http://donwagner.dk/EncIt/EncIt.html

    What were han Chinese doing in comparable 9th century – Tang Dynasty:

    http://www.wilsoncollection.org/2013/11/the-bronze-age-c.html

    Now that, is, metallurgy

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  208. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    There is a great story I read once about some educated Methodist Preachers, Doctorate types, going on a trip to Japan to study Zen in, In , I believe it was, the 18th century.

    Methodist preachers in 18th century Japan?That would have been more than a bit problematic:

    Sakoku (“locked country”) was the foreign relations policy of Japan under which no foreigner could enter nor could any Japanese leave the country on penalty of death. The policy was enacted by the Tokugawa shogunate under Tokugawa Iemitsu through a number of edicts and policies from 1633–39 and remained in effect until 1853 with the arrival of the Black Ships of Commodore Matthew Perry and the forcible opening of Japan to Western trade. It was still illegal to leave Japan until the Meiji Restoration (1868). It was preceded by an era commonly referred to as Sengoku, or the Warring States period of Japanese history.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sakoku

    Jokes need good set-ups

    • Replies: @Truth
  209. vinteuil says:
    @Truth

    “Truth,” my friend: my first thought was that you might want to step away from the bong before you post again.

    But then curiosity got the better of me.

    Obviously, in your mind, concern over the condition of my beard = me asking for evidence that any of the most prominent commenters here believe what you say they do.

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?

    • Replies: @Truth
  210. Dipwill says:

    “You’re surprised that there would be a delay of some 1,600 years between iron smelting and advanced metallurgy? Isn’t that consistent with what we see elsewhere?”

    It probably is, but the point is just how little else there is in the history of the Igbo. They don’t seem like they were doing or experiencing much else.

    “You were saying that other African groups showed a record of academic achievement similar to that of the Ibo. Please name them.”

    In this case, I was talking about pre-modern historical achievement with regards to state building, government, art, architecture etc. I do not know the exact nature of what african ethnic groups are over-represented academically in western countries, but I get the impression many Nigerian immigrants in Britian, the US etc. are of Yoruba descent atleast.

    “Actually, he doesn’t. His argument was that “wealthy” Ashkenazi Jews were too small a proportion of the population to produce the kind of selective effect that Cochran et al. envisioned. In reality, the selection wasn’t produced by the “wealthy.” It was produced by differential survival and reproductive success among the bulk of the population — small family shops that often worked on contract for other traders.”

    I don’t know if that’s the whole of his argument- he also argues that the nature of the work was not that complex and did not require above average intelligence, and that jews were not money lenders for extended periods of time, among many other things.

    Elmina is in Ghana, not Nigeria, and I am not one to dispute the idea the Akan kingdoms were strongly economically influenced by the muslim states further north with the gold trade (but general cultural influence from them was still not that substantial).

    I insist on it because it’s significant to your argument that the other Nigerian groups developed as they did due to outside help, whereas the Igbo did it much more on their own. You have yet to present much evidence this was the case.

    “We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.”

    And what do you base this on? Igbo art from that period had some of the major hallmarks Benin and Ife art did, being centralized in one place and associated with divine kingship, and only lasting for a few centuries and eventually forgotten. What really set them apart?

    I don’t have trouble believing natural selection can produce those changes (and no, you don’t need to “take me by the hand”), but I am highly skeptical towards some of the dynamics put forth by people in this field. I already mentioned my qualms with the demands of mercantile positions, and I think this could be further exemplified by the likely high intelligence of many south asian groups. What sort of demands could have selected for their intelligence? There seem to be many groups in South Asia who are of very high IQ;, and the Parsi are a good example, who are very small in number yet have achieved very, very disproportionately. I think it might be the case they are smarter than the Ashkenazi, who’s IQ seems to be 110. What sort of pressures could have really been so demanding in the past?

    There is also the phenomenon of brain size in earlier humans being much larger than it is now, and this being the case even in africa and australia. You think this doesn’t have much to do with intelligence, but information storage (atleast in the case of northern hunter-gatherers, but again, this has been found in africa and australia). However, the correlation between brain size and intelligence in humans is robust, and is replicable in primates and many other organisms. There are many people alive today with brain sizes that equal or exceed the average for humans back then, and this is often correlated with higher intelligence, but under your model, if we were to take people from back then (or Siberians and Inuits) and measure their brain sizes with IQ scores, they wouldn’t correlate as well. In cases like this, I honestly think some sort of drift is more plausible.

  211. @Peter Frost

    ““After fifty years of coastal exploration, the Portuguese finally reached Elmina in 1471, during the reign of King Afonso V. However, because Portuguese royalty had lost interest in African exploration as a result of meager returns, the Guinea trade was put under the oversight of the Portuguese trader, Fernão Gomes. Upon reaching present day Elmina, Gomes discovered a thriving gold trade already established among the natives and visiting Arab and Berber traders.”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmina_Castle#Pre-Portuguese

    This is standard history. European and Muslim traders altered the dynamics of West African societies by producing an inflow of new wealth, which was disproportionately monopolized by chieftains. This wealth enabled them to expand their territorial base and become patrons for works of art, monuments, etc. If you wish to disagree, fine. This point is tangential to our discussion, and I’m puzzled why you insist on it.”

    This is wrong again. Elmina in Ghana is hundreds miles from Benin, which is the kingdom you and him were discussing and no Gomes did not find “visiting Arab and Berber traders” at Elmina. Wikipedia is wrong again. Stop just relying on Wikipedia. If you want to get an idea of who was actually visiting Elmina for trade when the Portuguese arrived from a professional source read the article “Wangara, Akan and Portuguese in the Fifteenth and Sixteenth Centuries. 1. The Matter of Bitu” by Ivor Wilks.

    We can be “sure” that it was less of a factor than it was in the centralized kingdoms that arose much later in other parts of West Africa.

    This is poorly reasoned. You do not know whether there was a centralized kingdom there or not to be “sure” of anything. You may not have not read about the sites in detail but it remains a fact that the professional archaeologist who excavated the Igbo Ukwu artifacts, Thurstan Shaw, believed they were made by a kingdom and he noted in his work that this particular part of the Igbo area did in fact have traditions of a divine kingship in there. It may very well have been a centralized kingdom.

  212. @PandaAtWar

    1. The Chinese terracotta statues may have been inspired by Hellenistic art actually. Not many people know this but there has been credible research on it.

    So the artistic progression would go like this:

    Egyptian art (which had a huge influence on Greek art) and West Asian/Mesopotamian art —-> Greek art (which had a huge influence on the art of other societies nearby especially following Alexander the Great’s conquests) —-> Hellenistic influenced non-Greek societies, especially in the Iranian/Persian language speaking areas —-> Chinese terracotta warrior statues.

    I say that not to take anything away from the Chinese because their historical achievements are very great and they have many other achievements but it should be stated since you made the comparison that their terracotta warrior statues do not actually seem to have been achieved independent of significant foreign inspiration (look up the research of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on the terracotta statues).

    2. The links given by you to examples of Chinese bronzes show works that are actually quite underwhelming compared to the best of the Igbo Ukwu art of which there are even better examples in a few books than the one Peter posted at the top of the article (though that snail shell is quite beautiful and detailed). Some of the other Igbo Ukwu bronzes have this kind of artistic detail and complexity for example:

    Perhaps there are some much better Chinese bronzes not online but from what I have seen after looking around online and from what I remember from a few books the best Chinese bronzes only seem to occasionally match but not surpass the best Igbo Ukwu bronzes artistically.

    3. Finally the Chinese have always had a much much larger population than the Igbo have ever had plus access to trade with more groups in Eurasia. It would be rational to take this fact into account when comparing the pace of technological development between different cultures.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
    , @PandaAtWar
  213. Truth says:
    @syonredux

    Now if you’ll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Japan

    • Replies: @syonredux
  214. Truth says:
    @vinteuil

    But ??? = me getting my head removed? That’s a puzzler. Was it your discovery of new commenter Qasim?

    The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it’s own.

    If I gave it away, it wouldn’t be Zen.

    • Replies: @vinteuil
  215. @FirstPerson

    1. Your quotation of Lukas Nickel of the SOAS on his speculation that the full body size of the terracotta army might be inspired Hellenistic art has jack to do with the purpose why Panda put them there.

    Even assume that Lukas Nickel’s speculation is entire true, it’s like Panda is inspired to write my thesis on a A-4 paper instead of A-6 one. Does it imply something? Nothing. The content of my thesis has jack to do with which size of paper Panda is writing on.

    What Terracotta Army has shown is at the completely different league on many fronts, for example,

    –Terracotta Army makers beat Toyato by 2,000 years:

    http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/1211/01112012-terracotta-army-toyotism

    —Terracotta Army reveals a awesome fighting machine

    http://www.georgianewsday.com/news/regional/192433-terracotta-army-was-an-awesome-fighting-machine-with-weapons-so-powerful-they-could-kill-an-enemy-with-a-single-arrow.html

    –Terracotta Army’s crossbow bronze trigger mechanism engineering design was about 2,200 years ahead of its time, almost twice as powerful as modern rifle:

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/peoplesdaily/article-3004149/2-200-year-old-crossbow-powerful-modern-day-assault-rifle-discovered-Terracotta-Warriors.html

    –Terracotta Army’s aerodynamic arrow-heads were the result of astonishing precison engineering and manufacturing:

    http://www.ai-journal.com/articles/10.5334/ai.1316/

    – Terracotta Army’s bronze sword lenghth alone maked the one of the highest feats of Bronze Age manufactoring knowhow:

    http://www.travelchinaguide.com/attraction/shaanxi/xian/terra_cotta_army/weapon_1.htm

    Does any of above have anything to do with Lukas Nickel ‘s speculation of Hellenistic art? Panda’s point was that Qin’s Terracotta Army ( 221BC) is a high tech engineering feat, representing the peak of Bronze Age of Human civilisation at a time (not an ART, or far beyond vitual art!).

    2. if point1 hasn’t convinced you yet, then this point 2 – Panda’s real purpose of posting terracotta Army in the earlier post – would definately made 9th cedntury Igbo bronze items appear amateurs at best:

    The chariots and horses are exact imitations of actual chariot, horse and driver in half life-size. The chariots and horses are composed of 3,400 bits (of which 1742 are bronze pieces) . The bronze chariot is 3.17 meters long, 1.06 meters high. The bronze horse is 65–67 centimeters high, 1. 2 meters long. Their weights vary from 177 kilograms, the lightest, to 212.9 kilograms, the heaviest. The total weight of the chariot, the horse and the driver reach to 1,243 kilograms.

    The main body is cast of bronze. There are altogether 1,720 pieces of gold and silver decoration on the chariots and horses, with a total weight of seven kilograms of silver and gold wares. One is compelled to appreciate the high technology, the real artistic modeling in great admiration.

    For instance, the umbrella-like canopy on the top is only four millimeter thick, the window one millimeter thick, with many ventilation holes. The horse tassels were made of bronze thread as thin as a hair, the diameter of which is only 0. 1 m. m.. The horse necklets were welded together with 42 nodes of gold and 42 nodes of silver. Archaeologists can see the welding joints only with the help of magnifiers. The horse halters, made of a gold tube and a silver tube, were joined with a form of snap fasteners. In the halters, there is a pin. When the pin was pulled out, the halters could be removed completely. According to primary research, it is found that the making of the bronze chariots and horses involved different techniques such as casting, welding, riveting, mounting, embedding and carving.

    The bronze chariots and horses were the earliest and most exquisitely made bronze valuables. They enjoy the highest class and have the most complete harnessing wares. They are also the largest bronze ware discovered in the history of world archaeology. The excavation of the bronze chariots and horses provides extremely valuable material and data for the textual research of the metallurgical technique, the mechanism of chariots and technological modeling of the Qin Dynasty.

    http://www.galenfrysinger.com/warriors_xian_china.htm

    They were just 1 carriot and 4 horses, not trying to overwelming you by the size of Han Chinese population at a time, fair enough? let alone 9th century Igbo items, you can try gathering the entire engineering elites of the current Igbo living in Nigeria today to try replicating a copy of this carriot/horse engineering feat, alone. Simple? not quite. Now see how many decades it would take for them to do so with 21st century technologies they have at disposal.

    Consider all above happpened 1,000 friggin years ahead of Igbo’s (relatively) primitive little bronze pots and shells even appeared.

    And you try to justify with a straight face that that “rock” represented some “high tech”of metallurgy. Yeah, it/they may well be ahead of the rest of Africa, but compare it/them to imperial China, are you kidding Panda? ROFL

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  216. @FirstPerson

    More detail on this bronze carriot & 4 horses inside Terracotta Army, in case you have no clue (not offence, but it’s at least what appears to Panda) on what is true Metallurgy and Civilisation vís-a-vís that Igbo high tech “rock”:

    This kind of bronze chariots unearthed give people a new impression. Its complex process and sophisticated production surprise the whole world. The bronze chariot is with tent, 78cm wide and 88cm deep in the carriage. It is 4cm wider than the chariots referred before, but it is 40cm deeper than it.

    The carriage is enclosed, even the steering place is covered, so the people inside can talk directly with the groom. People inside can sit or lie down to have a rest. It equals to soft sleeper and people can enjoy their journey in it with ease.

    The interior equipment is more distinctive. The cushion inside the carriage is beautiful and painted. Archaeologists have found a square copper plate at the bottom of the carriage, whose size is almost the same as the bottom of the carriage. Its surface is painted with all kinds of colorful geometric patterns, with eight 3 cm long copper nails at the corners and central part for support. This is undoubtedly the ancient soft mat products. If there are two in the carriage, the vehicle will be more stable and comfortable. It can be said to be China’s first “sleeper car”.

    Archaeologists have discovered that the bronze chariot has a total of 3462 parts, of which 1742 are bronze pieces, 737 are gold ones and 983 are silver ones. Its total weight is 1241kg, of which gold castings are more than 3 kg, silver castings are more than 4 kg. The number of casting parts of the first kind is nearly the same. There are more than 5000 parts for the two kinds of chariots and the parts are all casted.

    Whether it is canopy cover, copper horse or warrior as large as 2 square meters, or little tubes as small as 0.2 square meters, they are finished in one cast. Take canopy cover for example, it is large and its thickness varies. It can be 0.4 cm thick or 0.1 cm thin and it has curvature on the top. It is difficult to finish in one cast today, not to mention the Qin Dynasty 2,200 years ago. The casting of bronze horses and warriors are also difficult for contemporary engineers. They are perfect in expression, personality and temperament, and they can compare with the best officer warriors. It is rare in bronze horse and warrior casting. For example, the copper bridle is connected with 82 small gold tubes and 78 small silver tubes, with each only 0.8cm. It can be compared to modern bracelet.

    The most surprising object is Ying Luo, hanging on the neck of the horse and made of hair-thin copper wire. Under the magnifier, the copper wire is with uniform thickness and without the trace of forging. It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.

    All in all, it is a miracle in making such perfect artifacts with bronze in a period without modern equipments. Moreover, it gives us the first hand information of the bowing warriors, chariot warriors and riding warriors 2,200 years ago and it is of significant meaning in ancient military research.

    http://www.beijingtourstoterracottawarriors.com/about-terra-cotta-warriors.html

    So the Panda Challenge is : today’s Igbo elites, try to make a copy of above themselves, alone, using 21st century technologies they have currently in Nigeria. See whether they can do it, and for how long it takes.

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
  217. @PandaAtWar

    Panda, I already know all that you have posted and more about the terracotta army so nothing you have posted is news to me. Nor is the information about the crossbows, swords, etc. new to me. But I do not think you understood my point. I would like to think you are not just a troll despite the derogatory comments about the art you made (for the record, evaluations of the technical complexity of the Igbo Ukwu art have been made in publications by experts and no one (credible) has denied that they represent a high achievement) and just state some details that rational people would take into account when making comparisons.

    As of the time that the terracotta army was made in the 3rd century BC the Igbo (or their ancestors, assuming that they even existed a distinct population or culture) may not have been up to 50,000 people – probably less. While the population of Qin China around that time was in the tens of millions. And if the population of the Igbo in the early 20th century is anything to go by, the Igbos in the 9th century AD definitely did not have anywhere the population of 3rd century BC China. Add to that the fact that China had direct influences from and access to other parts of Eurasia and it is clear that it is not actually an even or balanced race.

    You also seem to be excessively focused on the fact that the chariots are large. Sure, but then there is the possible external influence (from an artistic tradition which actually stretches all the way back to ancient Egypt as I mentioned in my previous comment) in making realistic life size figures to take into account plus the fact that Qin China was a much larger society in terms of area, population and resources than the Igbo ever were. So that the Chinese made more bronzes and made some of them much larger is not so surprising. But in terms of actual artistic complexity (which, admittedly, is subjective) I only see occasionally see Chinese bronzes here and there in books or online that match the best of the Igbo Ukwu art.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  218. syonredux says:
    @Truth

    Now if you’ll re-read my post, I said that I BELIEVE it was the 18th century. It was in fact the 19th.

    Yes, but that elementary mistake ruined the joke.

  219. vinteuil says:
    @Truth

    “The idea, Vinteuil-san, is to utilize your introspection, long enough for the answer to appear upon it’s own.”

    Noted.

  220. @Qasim

    I am assuming people are smart enough to get the basic gist of my argument without having to hold their hand.

    When your arguments are full of rubbish you usually assume quite erroneously, as demonstrated above, and below.

    .
    But for whatever reason, Australoids are often omitted for the sake of brevity, and since we are discussing Eurasian DNA in Africa, referring to Australoids didn’t seem important. Again, this is something that doesn’t need to be obsessed over for people who are familiar with the argument and can make a simple mental leap.

    .
    Simplistic mental leap sums up much of what you claim, as the case of the Australoids shows. And said Australoids are important for when you assert these “fundamental” HBD tenets like the “3 races,” to leave them out only demonstrates how dubious said tenets are. Why would they be oft enomitted if your model asserts only the 3 races? What does this say about your touted HBD model?

    .
    Again, I am not here to hold your hand and patiently explain everything to you. I assume that most of the people who read this site are already well aware of who Richard Lewontin is, how his Marxism colored his science, Lewontin’s fallacy etc.

    lol, you are simply ducking an dodging. You have no idea what you are talking about and throwing out glib phrases about “marxism colored” etc as cover still doesn’t cut it. How specifically does Lewontin support your claim? For an HBD expert like you answering that should be easy. What’s taking you so long?

    .
    Again, you miss the point. And how many times are you going to cite your beloved Relethford?
    And how many times do you try to shift exposure of the dubious claims you are pushing? You earlier called Relethford’s data “fancy”, as a way to run away from it. Whatsa matter? Is it too hard for you?

    .
    Let me try to make this clearer for you. Suppose there was an article that stated a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. All that would mean is that there is a high diversity of skin color amongst Arabs. Whether that diversity was something that was present 1500 years ago in the Arabian peninsula or whether the color diversity is a result of mating with and Arabizing people like the Persians and the Sudanese is not something that can be determined by the study.

    What you say makes little sense. Why do you assume a study on skin color would have nothing to say about sources of the skin color variation? Almost all studies on skin color do- Relethford above, which you keep ruining away from, as well as people like Jablonski (2000, 2010).

    .
    So is the diversity of skin colors among Bantus something intrinsic to Bantus or is it the result of admixture with different ethnicities who had different skin colors?

    You asserted that it was due to some sort of race mix, but when asked for evidence you run away behind a smokescreen of glibness. What’s taking you, the HBD expert, so long in laying out some credible evidence and scholarship in support of your claim? Lewontin does not lend any support at all to such a claim. When are you going to actually produce something, credible, rather than run away?

    .
    And this is a quote from the Razib Khan article recently posted on this site that seems germane..
    — But the masking of Eurasian ancestry also highlighted something important: the genetic variation across African populations once you remove Eurasian ancestry is not that high.

    This does not help your case at all, and it is not really germane to the matter at hand on skin color re the Igbo. Khan does not dispute that Africans have the greatest genetic diversity. In fact he admits it, saying “Nick Patterson” told him much diversity is within populations. Sure, no one disputes that. The bottom line – they both admit that greater diversity is still there, which conforms what Relethford says above. Khan also proffers much personal opinion in his spiel, but that does not change the bottom line found by credible genetic scientists (not bloggers) who are actually in the field. Your Khan quote again does little to help you case re the Igbo. You are only throwing it out to pretend that you have some grounds to stand on. Its like your vague, catch all “Lewontin” blurb- you can’t cite anything SPECIFIC, so you use that as a smokescreen, a typical “HBD” approach. But no one is being fooled.

    .
    Anyway, there is no reason to think that the San’s generally uniform skin complexion is the result of any race mixing.

    But earlier you asserted just such a claim, and you also suggest above that anyone with HBD knowledge would easily see and accept it. Why are you, the HBD expert guy, now trying to back away from the claim you so boldly asserted earlier?

    .
    When we see African Americans (who are overwhelmingly of Bantu origin) with light skin, we assume European admixture. So why is that when we see BANTU Africans (whose skin is generally exceedingly dark), that possibility is rejected out of hand? Because the alleged mixture took place in prehistory?

    For one thing, African Americans are not “overwhelmingly” of “Bantu” origin. This is yet another BS claim of yours, and you still don’t know what you are talking about. Here’s some actual data once again debunking the nonsensical claims you make.

    We found that all the African Americans are admixed in the African component of their ancestry, with estimated contributions of 19% West (for example, Mandenka), 63% West Central (for example, Yoruba), and 14% South West Central or Eastern (for example, Bantu speakers), with little variation among individuals.” (Zakharia et al., 2009, Characterizing the admixed African ancestry of African Americans.Genome Bio, v10, Is12. p.8)

    ^^Oooh! Look! Notice an actual scholarly citation! DO you think this is “too “fancy” for you to grasp?

    .
    Neanderthals lived in Eurasia. Neanderthals did not live in Africa. Neanderthals mated with Homo Sapiens. Neanderthal DNA is therefore present in modern humans. If a group of humans show Neanderthal DNA, then this means they had ancestors in Eurasia, since that is where Neanderthals and modern humans mated. If Africans are found to have Neanderthal DNA, then this means some of their ancestors were at one point in Eurasia.

    lol, you have been spoon feeding yourself too much of your own “obvious” gruel. None of the above supports your claim. How did Neanderthal skin color come to be reflected in the Igbo, since you keep claiming all this great “racial admixture”? Once again, you have noting credible to put on the table, only glib nonsense.

    .
    Now whether Neanderthals had the skin color of Taylor Swift or Lawrence Taylor is not relevant to the current argument. (Dipwill, it is also not relevant whether the Neanderthal brain was the size of a walnut or a watermelon.) The point of me bringing up the presence of Neanderthal DNA in Nigerians is ONLY that it is proof of partial Eurasian ancestry.

    But actually it is quite relevant. You THINK you have some sort of “supporting” point which is why you cite the Neanderthal example. You want to use the Neanderthals as your “Eurasian” kinda “race mixer.” But the example falls flat and you still can produce no credible scholarship showing this Igbo skin color variation is due to Neanderthals. You want to, but fail repeatedly.

    .
    Allow me to cite a recent credible article on Kanye West, a dark-skinned black man who recently had a daughter with a white woman. Now cutting edge spectral technology has given us tantalizing clues that this baby North has a complexion lighter than that of her black father yet darker than her white mother!! And this study helped me conclude that Africans with Eurasian admixture may be more light skinned.

    But what you are saying here is not at issue. Of course in the modern era Kanye and Kim will have a child with lighter skin. No one is “debating” that. What is at issue is your claim that skin color variation in Africa, specifically among the Igbo, is due to some sort of race mix. You fail repeatedly in your claim. Failing with the Igbo, you now cast your ramshackle net wider to conjure a ‘Neanderthal into Nigeria” angle. But once again, you can produce no credible evidence that such is responsible for any skin color variation among the Igbo, or in Nigeria.

    .
    The Igbo are certainly an elite today. That IS the point of the Frost article, after all. And they are more light-skinned than other Nigerian tribes. And notice how you bring up Benin and totally ignore the ubiquitous and indisputable pattern of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history.

    I said the Igbo were no light-skined elite and even today only SOME Igbo have such skin. Most of them are dark skinned people (Chuku (2013). Also, the Igbo were less advanced than many of the larger, more powerful, sophisticated cultures round them. As shown above the Igbo borrowed liberally from advanced art and technology already developed regionally, and adapted them to their own use. The Igbo were no “elite” until well into the 20th century.

    And this is the second time you assert your mystical claim of an allegedly “ubiquitous and indisputable pattern” of light-skinned elites seen throughout world history. I already gave the example of Benin and you duck it because it debunked your mystical claim. But we need not stop with Benin. Tell us, who were these mysterious “light skinned elites” than ran the Mali empire, or Ghana? How about the Zulu? Shaka or his predecessors were of the “light skinned elite”? lol..

    .

    (notice how you use the word credible as this weird mantra, probably because you know someone else could as easily link to scholarly articles that conclude the exact opposite of what your articles say, but of course those articles would be non-credible).

    lol, it is no mantra, it is straight fact, that again and again, debunks the rubbish you are pushing including these mystical “light skinned” “elites”. And since you can’t do it, where are the HBD experts that conclude the “exact opposite” of what Relethford and others cited above say?

    .
    And thirdly, considering many of the researchers themselves share your ideological commitments, the fact that a scholar says something doesn’t mean much on its own (see Lewontin, Gould).

    You can’t even keep your own logic straight, though you write plenty, but still strangely, cannot even produce a credible citation in support of the rickety claims you keep making. Up above you say Lewontin is Marxist etc etc, but then you invoke him in support of your claims. When challenged as to where Lewontin specifically proffers such support you run away to hide behind a smokescreen that does little to conceal your lack of knowledge.

  221. @unpc downunder

    In the US there is some evidence that test changes were made so that girls could do better on tests. For example:

    College Board Revises Test to Improve Chances for Girls. 1996. Karen W. Arenson 10/2/1996 NY Times

    http://www.nytimes.com/1996/10/02/us/college-board-revises-test-to-improve-chances-for-girls.html?pagewanted=print&src=pm

    Is this similar to what you are talking about in Australia?

  222. @FirstPerson

    I also disagreed with your characterization of lighter brown skin as a non-African feature. It is found not only among the Igbos in Nigeria (as just one place in Africa where it is found) and there are many dark skinned Igbos anyhow.

    And as noted in the scholarly citation above, Africans have the highest skin color diversity.

  223. @PandaAtWar

    Laughable rubbish. Since when is a “trip advisor” type anonymous, lightweight website representative of anything? Next you’ll be linking to Marvel Comics or fortune cookie blurbs for your “research.” Here is what a real art museum, one of the most respected in the world, in its published catalog has to say about the art of that region, which is overall part of the Igbo zone. Benin City where this art was housed by the way is less than 100 miles from Igbo-Ukwu:

    The art of Benin first became known in Europe and America in 1897,
    following the Punitive Expedition. Because of their relatively natural-
    istic style and use of luxury materials, such as brass and ivory, they
    created a sensation among art historians, anthropologists, and collec-
    tors. Felix von Luschan, the anthropologist who acquired a vast
    collection of Benin art for the Berlin Museum fur Volkerkunde, wrote
    in appreciation, “These works from Benin are equal to the very finest
    examples of European casting technique. Benvenuto Cellini could not
    have cast them better, nor could anyone else before or after him, even
    up to the present day. Technically, these bronzes represent the very
    highest possible achievement” (von Luschan 1901:10, cited in New
    York, Metropolitan Museum of Art, 1990:21).

    FROM: ROYAL ART OF BENIN
    The Metropolitan Museum of Art: The Perls Collection in The Metropolitan Museum of Art

    Kate Ezra

    This publication was issued in connection with the exhibition Royal Art of Benin from the Perls Collection held at The Metropolitan Museum of Art
    from January 16 through September 13, 1992. Published by The Metropolitan Museum of Art, New York.

    https://archive.org/stream/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection/RoyalArtofBeninThePerlsCollection_djvu.txt

    So much for your er, “challenge”..

  224. @FirstPerson

    also

    @ Enrique Cardov-a :(you can google up any related sources, they are endless, from british mesuem or wiki Qin , Han , Tang China)

    ————————

    LoL. Calling panda a troll sounds like a good strategy, then as if by doing that you could mystically “win” the argument.

    1. you still have no idea of what you’re talking about.

    2.you are still repeating you nonsencal points again and again, but that doesn’t somehow make them true.

    Your central excuses are all false:

    False A: you accuse that Terracotta Army was influenced by Western Art. Panda refuted you false claim which tries to switch the concept of this discussion. It’s not size that matters(assume that Qin copied Western size, ok?), it’s the content, the bronze tech does. Terracotta army itself represents bronze technology in essence nunder the context of this discussion, not some full body-sized art you try to switch to . None of Terracotta Army’s bronze technologeis were influenced by the West which at a time was still at its infancy.

    False B: you keep mentioning the Qin had much larger population size which made the difference. False, because population size does not matter at all here as one doesn’t need a huge value chain to produce a high tech Metallurgy item. e.g. Mercedez Benz is much much bigger, has much more workers than Aston Martin or Lotus. Yet the latter two can produce racing cars with the similar sophistication as Merc, even though Merc can produce 10,000 racing cars, but the Lotus just need to produce 1 to equalise it. Similarly, Igno can represent 1 item, not matter how small it is , to compare with what Qin China Terracotta Army produced. So Igno names 1 piece, Qin China names 1 piece – size doesn’t matter. Fair enough? That’s exactly what Panda proposed and compared in my earlier posts.

    False C: Then you keep secretly switching to another concept of “artisitc complexity “. My…!
    We had never talked about artistic feel before, which again is another entire new concept and quite subjective too, since one can rightly argue that “I feel rap songs of my neighbour’s 12-yrs-old have more ‘artistic complexity’ than Tchaikovsky’s 1812 Overture”, so what? What Panda has compared has ALWAYS been bronze technologies – now those are objective. You said you knew what Terracotta Army was all about, you don’t. 99.99999% of the world population have no darn clue of it. What are objective bronze technologies that any layman can objectively and instantly judge which is supeior tech with almost 100% accuracy?

    E.g. try to produce 20 small bronze canopy tubes with their thickness varied between 0.4 cm thick to 0.1 cm thin and with curvature on the top of each. Simple? you don’t need 20 Igbo persons to do that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 hair-thin copper wire with uniform thickness (0.5mm) without using forging, and join it into a circle. You don’t need 3 Igbo engineers to achive that if they know how.

    or E.g. try to produce 1 bronze sword with 1.3 metre length. Simple? You don’t need 50,ooo Igbo persons to achieve it, you probably only need 5 .

    Can they do any of those? Now those are what Panda has been talking about, those are the things that define objectively the stage of high tech sophistication of the Bronze Age.

    Honestly, whatever stuff you pull out of Igbo in 900AD would look like from the Stone Age, to most objective people, when compared to any of 200BC Qin China bronze horse or carriot.

    You find 1 piece remotely close to those of Qin China in technological sophistication, come back to humble Panda.

    Before that happens, Igbos could probably claim their superiority in Africa as Peter Frost seems to suggest which Panda largely agrees.

    What you don’t do , however, is to try to brag those primitive Igbo 9th century rocks out of all porpotions in front of the true cutting-edge frontrunners of Metallurgy in that part of history:

    Qin China (Teracotta Army was >1,100 years ahead of Igbo 9th century rocks ), or

    Han China ( about 1,000 years ahead, already starting of Cast Iron-making and, soon after, Steel-making . Goodbye, primitive bronzeware!) , or

    Tang China (the same 9th century as those Igno rocks, but excuse Panda, Tang China at a time was already about 800 years well into advanced steel-making, meanwhile the Igbo still tried to figure out how to make some primitive paterned bronze pots with some dots, pauleeez!. it’s like right now we are talking about 4G smartphones, while you come along bragging about how advanced your ancient analogue landline is. ROFL)

    (In 9th century, Panda is not entirely sure, but probably even the camel-riding Arabs were a country mile ahead of the Igbo in metallurgy, let alone Imperial China)

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
    , @FirstPerson
  225. @candid_observer

    t is likewise true that blacks in the US have very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor, so that the comparison between the two groups on the basis of their performance on the medical school tests is pretty fair.

    Not really. US blacks don’t have any “very aggressive Affirmative Action working in their favor.” This is a myth. From their very inception, AA has been throttled and sandbagged, from union opposition to Richard Nixon’s famous 1969 “Philadelphia Plan” to the Reagan regime’s 1980s rolling back EEO enforcement and oversight, with big cuts to the EEOC budget that created a backlog measured in YEARS. Furthermore, quotas were diluted using a variety of devices from the get-go. Some workplaces went the “tokenism” route- hire a few blacks to make a lawsuit go away and prevent the lawyers from digging too deeply into racist practices.

    And where quotas did go into effect they were quickly expanded to cover white women, and in time, the bulk of the beneficiaries of quotas became white women. In fact since the 1980s, courts have sharply limited the use of “quotas” in contracting as demonstrated in the Croson case (1989) which ruled against minority-only contract awards, and the Adarand case (1990). In short, while courts have not entirely killed Affirmative Action or “diversity”, from the 1980s they have sharply limited its applicability. And this was over 2 decades ago. California’s famous Proposition 209 which outlawed was in 1996, almost 20 years ago.

    As far as admissions quotas are a small factor in black higher education. In the 2006 Fisher case fr example, out of over 100 students in the contested admission pool, blacks and Hispanics weighted in at 5 bodies, barely 3-5%. And there is/was always a small percentage of black students who never needed quotas in the first place. See Sanders book- Mismatch where the end of AA quotas in one studied high-end law school STILL left behind about 3% of the slots for blacks. These remaining blacks did NOT need quotas.

    On the employment front again alleged AA quotas “swamping” white people turn out to be phantoms. One study of govt contractors with AA between 1974 and 1980, for instance, Leonard (1984;1990) finds that among contractors black male employment rose from 5.8% to 6.7, an unimpressive .9 percent, LESS than even 1%- rather trivial. As regards the professors on campus, the “very aggressive quotas” alleged are rather thin gruel, despite massive neocon propaganda barrages. One study for example found that when AA started up:

    “The catastrophic scenarios conjured by the neo-conservatives and the [Jewish] agencies never came to pass. In fact between 1968 and 1973, blacks’ share of total university faculty jobs grew from 2.2 to 2.9 percent; with historically black colleges and universities removed from the calculations, blacks made up only 0.9 percent of the professoriate. Over the next twenty years, black representation among full-time faculty members grew only .05 percent…

    The federal government has barked but never bitten in academe as in construction: by 1980, not a single college or university in the country had lost federal monies for failure to comply with anti-discrimination law. A few leaders later acknowledged that affirmative action had caused no discernible loss of jobs for Jews, and that, quite to the contrary, Jewish women had benefited. Surveying ‘the impact o affirmative action on Jews’ in 1976, an AJC leader concluded that it ‘has not had catastrophic impact,’ though particular individuals might have ‘suffered mightily.’ How many though, ‘nobody seems to know,’ and no one had bothered to collect data beyond the anecdotal. Nor had anyone adduced figures proving that Jewish students had lost out across the board in admission to law or medical school.”
    –Nancy MacLean 2008. Freedom Is Not Enough: The Opening of the American Workplace. p. 218

    ^^Read Ron Unz’s analysis of meritocracy, and analysis of how Asians are being treated, and you will see standard neocon narratives about “quotas” in this area are not all they are made out to be.

  226. @PandaAtWar

    Panda at war, I said that I would like to think that you are not a troll despite the fact that you kept making strange derogatory remarks that would be viewed as false by basically anyone who has some basic knowledge about the Igbo Ukwu art. Then there is the fact that you keep referring to yourself in the third person and typing in a strange style. I do not know how old you are but if you are very young that might explain the insults toward the art of other cultures and the overall tone of your comments.

    1. I did not say the actual bronze casting techniques of the Chinese art came from the west at all. I said that the entire idea of making all those life size figures may have come from Hellenistic influenced societies to the west of China.

    Since you think the size of the respective artwork that is being compared is important (as is clear from your comments) it is pertinent to note that the size of the pieces in the terracotta army – regardless of whether the material we are talking about is bronze or terracotta – may have been influenced by other peoples in Eurasia who had already been influenced by an artistic tradition which stretches back earlier to Greece and hence back even to ancient Egypt, hence my citation of Lukas Nickel on Hellenistic influence.

    Many Chinese bronze ritual vessels – such as pots and similar items – which were made long before any probable Hellenistic influence are usually much smaller in size than the bronze work that you keep mentioning from the terracotta army but I would not dismiss great Chinese art of that type because it is not of a large size.

    2. On a technical level there are professional sources praising what the Igbo Ukwu art achieved. To quote just one of these sources on the Igbo Ukwu art:

    “They are among the most inventive and technically accomplished bronzes ever made.” – The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    There are other sources you could find rather easily if this issue of whether the Igbo Ukwu art was technically accomplished or not interests you so much. But I will not keep going back and forth with you about this because it seems that you just want to ignore reputable sources. The comparison about thinness, thickness etc. that you want to make are problematic because these two vastly different cultures may not have been trying to make exactly the same kind of art.

    But since you are so curious I will let you know (since you seem to have ‘no darn clue’ about it) that art made in the larger general region of Igbo Ukwu, such as the metal art of Ife and Benin is famously thinly cast, in such a manner that, according to The Cambridge History of Africa, Vol. 3, p. 476:

    “At Ife, supplies of metal seem at first to have been so scarce that the casts were often made with thicknesses of metal that European bronze-casters would have regarded as impossibly thin. (This, incidentally, is a considerable tribute to the technical skill of the Ife casters.)”

    The Igbo Ukwu works exhibit similar thinness, like the pieces from Ife mentioned in the Cambridge History of Africa. For example, speaking of the Igbo Ukwu pieces, The Grove Encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art says:

    “Great vessels of 250-400 mm in diameter were cast in one, with walls never more than 1 or 2 mm thick” – The Grove encyclopedia of materials and techniques in art (2008), Gerald W.R. Ward (editor), Oxford University Press. p. 71.

    Note that these are millimeters, easily meeting your personal requirement for what is supposed to be technically complex in bronze work.

    Whether they varied the thickness in individual pieces of the art at specific places is something I would have to look for more detailed sources on but from some of the artwork I have seen it seems likely that they did. If I am successful in finding a reputable source on this I will put a comment on here about it for you.

    With regard to copper wires, there are very thin copper wires, made into rings, from Zambia and other places in central and southern Africa but I would not conclude that those places in central and southern Africa had better metallurgical competence than the society of Igbo Ukwu in West Africa just because of that. I do not see that particular aspect (thin copper wires made into rings) as the kind of standard of technical sophistication in metallurgy in general that can be used to conclude that one society was more technically competent than another one in overall terms, or else I would be forced to conclude that everywhere in central and southern Africa that had copper wires made into rings and various other designs was more technically advanced in metallurgy than Igbo Ukwu. Consider for example, the wiredrawing of central and southern Africa discussed in the book Red Gold of Africa:

    “In one form or another, then, copper wire has been a staple of the material culture of this part of Africa, both modern and ancient. At Sanga, in southwestern Zaire, it was found spiraled and unspiraled in rings and bracelets as well as worked into chains. One of the most remarkable necklaces consists of fine (0.2 millimeter) copper wire wound spirally into a tube 2 to 3 millimeters in diameter, then wound again to form the necklace itself; another consists of interwoven copper wire. At Ingombe Ilede, bangles of fine copper and copper alloy abound, along with unworked trade wire and bobbins of fine copper, as well as wiredrawing implements. Moreover, all the sites associated with Great Zimbabwe have proven rich in finds of of copper and bronze wire, and it is ubiquitous at Mapugubwe Hill.” – Eugenia W. Herbert, Red Gold of Africa: Copper in Precolonial History and Culture (2003), p. 81

    There are other sources on copper wire in Africa that I could cite but the point is that copper wire drawing being used in southern and central Africa does not automatically demonstrate that they were more advanced than west Africans in metal working so I would certainly not conclude that Chinese copper wire rings, from whatever date, are such an amazing feat that they would put actual bronze sculptures to shame. It’s not a one-to-one comparison, really. I do not even know if Igbo Ukwu or other societies in the larger southern Nigeria region even cared to use copper wires in art or other decorations. As scarce as copper was for some of them, they might have needed to save it for more complex art or for art forms that their societies held in higher esteem.

    On swords, there was an iron sword with a bronze scabbard recovered from the Igbo Isaiah archaeological site of the Igbo Ukwu area, but I do not know what its length was.

    3. I believe population size does matter with regard to judging the pace of technological development of a society in general and also with regard to the number of high quality works of art produced, just as I believe outside influence is another factor to consider. You may believe differently. That is fine, but I do not want to want to bother writing a detailed explanation of things which should be almost obvious to people who approach issues in a rational manner.

    4. If you feel I was trying to discredit you by bringing up the issue of trolling that was not my intention, but I will let you know if no one else already has that your writing style can be a bit off-putting and suggestive of the comment style of a troll, hence my earlier comment. But really I take back the comment if you are not actually trolling. I still think you should make some effort to look at reputable sources on the art of the other societies you are discussing before just insulting such art blindly.

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  227. @PandaAtWar

    Actually I found out that copper wires were used in Igbo Ukwu and in numerous other places in West Africa. In fact there was a mention of their use at Igbo Ukwu in that book Red Gold of Africa (on p.196) that I missed, which I should have included in my previous comment. There are other sources that mention the copper wires found at Igbo Ukwu that were used for decorations but I have not been able to find the exact millimeter or centimeter thickness of these ones – I wouldn’t be surprised however if they were as thin as certain very thin ones from Zaire and other places in central Africa. If I find an exact number for the thinness of the wire I will publish a comment on it for you on this comment thread.

    But basically, copper wires were used in west, central, southern and eastern Africa in various shapes for bracelets and other things and so they may not even be unique enough to matter so much as some other measures when making distinctions about technical complexity of metallurgy.

  228. @FirstPerson

    You seem still don’t get my points {sigh}, almost none of them. Let Panda repeat one last time, if you still don’t get them, pls excuse Panda for no reply any more:

    1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don’t bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We’re talking about bronze works, only.

    2. We’re on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective “artistic feel” etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don’t bring up irrelevent “Hellenistic influence” , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.

    3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying “the size of bronze works doesn’t matter”. So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.

    3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn’t emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers, or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That’s why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called “artistic feel” since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that’s not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.

    4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn’t matter — again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument — the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.

    4b Actually population does matter – the hardball that Panda didn’t give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn’t it? So in a sense no need of “bronze works comparison” actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.

    5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don’t just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That’s not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier – this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.

    6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already – just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda’s offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline – aka bronze items – was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today’s world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  229. Deduction says:
    @FirstPerson

    Talking with Chisala’s fans is like talking with a lawyer.

    You came up with an example of one Nigerian who did not take a specific test. Since it is one example it is entirely meaningless.

    You did not come up with any reason or evidence why Nigerians as a whole are not taking that test.

    Stop arguing around the point of everything. You know your example is meaningless!

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  230. @PandaAtWar

    “1. Whenever Terracotta Army was mentioned, we only looked at their bronze pieces, not others, so pls don’t bring up other topics such as (clay) warriors, etc. We’re talking about bronze works, only.”

    I do not seem to be making my point clear about the Hellenstic influence or you seem to be deliberately ignoring it. This is not about clay. It is also relevant to the larger bronze work such as life sized chariots. I do not see how you still don’t understand this.

    “2. We’re on the page of bronze technologies, not any subjective “artistic feel” etc. No artistic feel, please. Only tech, ok? So pls don’t bring up irrelevent “Hellenistic influence” , as it has nothing to do with topics at hand.”

    My comment that you are replying to was not about “artistic feel” at all. “Artistic feel” was not mentioned. The Hellenistic influence is being discussed because of its relevance to the issue of size (not the naturalistic style influence) which you keep emphasizing.

    The technical sophistication of the Igbo Ukwu works has been explained already and I gave references to support my point.

    “3a. Panda has already given you an easy softball by saying “the size of bronze works doesn’t matter”. So you can bring up any size of 9th century Igbo bronze items to compare to Qin.”

    Didn’t I already? What I made clear in my last post is that the Igbo Ukwu works are cast either as thin or even thinner than Qin bronzes. You focused especially on the thinness of casting. I answered that but now you seem to be ignoring what I actually posted.

    “3b. Actually sizes of bronze do matter (the hardball that Panda didn’t emphasise. ROFL) , because bronze is notoriously soft. So how to make a huge arse bronze work, being a huge life-sized empty horse with thin layers”

    I believe I already explained what my view is on the size issue:

    Some Hellenistic influence on Chinese art —> larger sizes, such as life size horse sculptures

    I do view external influence as a factor to take into account when making these kinds of comparisons.

    “or produce >0.8 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Roman soldiers had) , or 1.3 metre bronze swords (i.e. what the Qin soldiers had), without breaking them, reflects a high level of technological knowhow. That’s why Panda asked you to present (the longest) bronze sword made by Igbo to showcase their bronze technology, not so-called “artistic feel” since it is very subjective. Of course Igbo made bronze swords, but that’s not point. Every major tribe outside Africa made bronze swords at some time, the point was how long they were without breaking or bending them.”

    They made iron swords at Igbo Ukwu. I do not know what the length of either the iron swords or the bronze scabbards that they made is. I never commented on the “artistic feel” of any swords or scabbards made.

    “4a. The population of Qin and Igbo doesn’t matter — again, this was another softball Panda gave to you for the simplicity of the argument — the underlying assumption was to reasonablely assume that producing a small bronze pot was much much more dependent on tech knowhow rather than on an army of production and engineering labours or big arse sub value chains.”

    Population sizes actually matter when comparing the pace of technological development between societies but regardless the actual technical details of the Igbo Ukwu art are impressive and are “among the most technically accomplished bronzes ever made” anyway.

    “4b Actually population does matter – the hardball that Panda didn’t give to you. Of course it matters in a larger picture! All ancient tribes took growing their populations in all possible ways as the top priority to better survive. The fact that some got more population while others not is pretty good indication of underlying average intelligence, because to get larger population one needed technologies, strategies, and tactics for food, conquer and defend. So bronze wroks or not, the pathetic population size of Igbo compared to the Han Chinese is in itself already a pretty clear indication of the underlying avg IQ, which in turn dictates what levels of bronze works or steel works or most other things they each could produce, doesn’t it? So in a sense no need of “bronze works comparison” actually in a purely theoritical term, as it appears obvious.”

    No actually much of Eurasia (China included) is easier to live in than west Africa. But this is too well known to even waste time arguing about it. I understand that you do not really know much about Africa but this is getting ridiculous.

    “5. Panda mentioned thin bronze copper wire etc. You don’t just need to present Igbo thin copper wire becasue every major tribes outside Africa produced thin bronze wire at some time, just like bronze swords. Of course they did. That’s not the point! The point was i) unified thickness and particularly ii) without trace of forging under magnifier – this required very high bronze enginnering tech, because forging it was much easier, probably any ancient human being, Bushman included, knew how to make sth very thin by just forging it.”

    Copper wire drawing is not “forging.” The website you quoted was just making a bogus statement when it said that: “It remains a secret how the thin copper wire (0.5 mm)can be made and joined into a circle.” There is no “secret.” Copper wiredrawing is already well known and not only circles but even more complex shapes were made with even thinner copper wire than 0.5 mm, such as in that 0.2 mm example from Zaire that I quoted. This sort of technology is not unique:

    “Wire (iron, copper, but also imported brass and, in places, silver and gold) is in Africa drawn in the same way as in Asia” – Gerhard Lindblom, Wire-drawing, Especially in Africa

    Maybe you do not actually understand what copper wiredrawing is and how it works and perhaps that is why you believe that the statements from that tour website you quoted (about “uniform thickness” and “without the trace of forging”) are evidence of something that was so unique.

    “6. A hardball: whatever bronze item that Igbo made in 9th century was already 1,000 years behind the cutting edge of the technological curve compared to 9th century Imperial China which was making refined steel items for centuries already – just like when imperial China was already making 4G smartphones for 1,000 years, and the Igbo were still trying to start making analogue landline. So in this sense, Panda’s offer to compare bronzeware of 200BC Qin and 900AD Igbo was a very generous softball already. Compare what? For 9th century China at a time, analogue landline – aka bronze items – was already an obsolete tech for 1,000 years . In another analogy: if in today’s world someone shows off to you his ability of capable figuring out how to make a basic radio receiver in order to prove his ultra high intelligence, what you do then? Call a psychiatrist?”

    I think you might need a psychiatrist if you cannot understand that factoring in sizes of the respective societies being compared and factoring in the amount of external influences available is the rational thing to do when making comparisons about the pace of technological progress.

    I am probably just wasting my time by responding to you.

  231. @Deduction

    I gave two examples and I do not see how they are meaningless. If two high achieving Nigerian students mentioned recently in the media may not have taken the PSAT then I do not think we can assume that every high achieving Nigerian student will take it. But that was not even my main objection to candid_observer’s national merit comparison. He was using a population guesstimate and the source of the guesstimate cited on Wikipedia was only a random website where the claim was made, not anything based on a study. In fact there are not even any studies that would give a reasonably accurate number but just guesstimates from various sites with no explanation of the methodology used to arrive at the estimated figure(s).

    Even if one assumed that Nigerian students who do not take the PSAT could be ignored, the only charts that are available – and only some of these seem to be available online – which give percentages for the enrollment in the school districts in the Greater Houston area by race do not distinguish Blacks, Whites, Hispanics, and Asians by their ancestral country of origin or specific ethnicity. Therefore finding out the student enrollment of Nigerians in the Greater Houston area as a percentage of all student enrollment, which is what one would actually need, cannot yet be done accurately.

  232. the point is just how little else there is in the history of the Igbo. They don’t seem like they were doing or experiencing much else.

    We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century.

    But let’s assume they were. Let’s assume that things only got interesting in the 9th century. A millennium of natural selection is more than enough time to produce the kind of academic achievement we now see in Igbo children.

    I do not know the exact nature of what african ethnic groups are over-represented academically in western countries

    “Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo.

    I don’t know if that’s the whole of his argument- he also argues that the nature of the work was not that complex and did not require above average intelligence, and that jews were not money lenders for extended periods of time, among many other things.

    That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree.

    Elmina is in Ghana, not Nigeria, and I am not one to dispute the idea the Akan kingdoms were strongly economically influenced by the muslim states further north with the gold trade (but general cultural influence from them was still not that substantial).I insist on it because it’s significant to your argument that the other Nigerian groups developed as they did due to outside help, whereas the Igbo did it much more on their own. You have yet to present much evidence this was the case.

    Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous.

    I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms. In particular, the inflow of new wealth, and its concentration in the hands of chieftains, made possible a higher level of cultural development, as seen in monuments and works of art. Maybe Americans learn a different version of African history. Again, this point is tangential to our discussion.

    Igbo art from that period had some of the major hallmarks Benin and Ife art did, being centralized in one place and associated with divine kingship, and only lasting for a few centuries and eventually forgotten. What really set them apart?

    No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo.

    Politically, the Igbo remained highly fragmented. To the extent that kingdoms developed, they weren’t able to recruit talented individuals over a wide area.

    There seem to be many groups in South Asia who are of very high IQ;, and the Parsi are a good example, who are very small in number yet have achieved very, very disproportionately. I think it might be the case they are smarter than the Ashkenazi, who’s IQ seems to be 110. What sort of pressures could have really been so demanding in the past?

    Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better.

    I realize you have been strongly influenced by Ferguson’s critique. You should read what the other side has to say. Gregory Clark has written perhaps the best and most thoroughly researched papers in this field.

    Clark, G. (2009a). The indicted and the wealthy: surnames, reproductive success, genetic selection and social class in pre-industrial England,

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/Farewell%20to%20Alms/Clark%20-Surnames.pdf

    Clark, G. (2009b). The domestication of Man: The social implications of Darwin, ArtefaCTos, 2(1), 64-80.

    http://campus.usal.es/~revistas_trabajo/index.php/artefactos/article/viewFile/5427/5465

    Clark, G. (2010). Regression to mediocrity? Surnames and social mobility in England, 1200-2009

    http://www.econ.ucdavis.edu/faculty/gclark/papers/Ruling%20Class%20-%20EJS%20version.pdf

    There is also the phenomenon of brain size in earlier humans being much larger than it is now, and this being the case even in africa and australia. You think this doesn’t have much to do with intelligence,

    Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc.

    This kind of intelligence is metabolically expensive, i.e., it consumes a lot of memory storage. When humans gave up hunting and gathering for agriculture, there was no longer the same selection pressure for spatio-temporal intelligence. Consequently, brain size grew smaller.

    • Replies: @FirstPerson
  233. dahoit says:
    @Jefferson

    Chinese guests please?Mutual understanding based on mutual trust,how unAmerican!The only connection between Jews and Chinese is the latter’s food.

  234. @Peter Frost

    “So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level”

    So because neither you (nor Chisala) has done any research on this it means you can assume that only one West African group has children of immigrants that perform at a high academic level.

    John Dabiri is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. Kunle Olukotun is a Yoruba and is a son of Nigerian immigrants. No other Nigerian group (except for one other non Igbo group) has children of immigrants to the West who later became APS Fellows (like Dabiri) or ACM Fellows (like Olukotun) or received similarly selective prestigious distinctions in the sciences in their academic careers. Winston Soboyejo (born in California) is also a son of Yoruba Nigerian immigrants. Saheela Ibrahim that I mentioned earlier in the comments is a Yoruba (Muslim) and child of Nigerian immigrants. This sort of pattern of high achievers repeats itself with this group, as it does with the Igbo who also achieve highly in the U.S.

    But because no detailed evidence about Yoruba, Akan, etc. (or any other West African group) performance has been gathered you assumed earlier that African immigrant children performing at a high academic level is something only limited to one ethnic group?

    “Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom.”

    There were no “Arab and Berber” visiting traders at Elmina when the Poruguese arrived, as explained earlier.

    “I was taught at university that the slave trade (Atlantic and Transsaharan) spurred the development and expansion of the Yoruba, Hausa, and Benin kingdoms.”

    Why not get new books then? Or go back to university?

    Ife existed and thrived long before any slave trade (which it was never involved in). Oyo engaged in the slave trade after it was already a power in its region. There is archaeological evidence of Oyo’s first city existing by the 12th century. Similarly for Benin.

    After recovering from an earlier war with the Nupe, Oyo expanded its power and only then was it able to engage significantly in the slave trade because of its defeat of neighbouring groups in war.

    Benin was already an empire when the Portugese arrived, before any slave trade, and its earliest discovered metallurgy precedes the slave trade. And what evidence have you or anyone else provided that the Hausa kingdoms only developed and expanded because of the slave trade? None.

    “No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders.”

    Neither the person you are replying to nor anyone else has said Igbo Ukwu was unoccupied in later times. The fact is that the art lasted some centuries but did not continue after a while. The art from Igbo Ukwu could easily be associated with a kingship in the area – that was the opinion of an actual professional like Thurstan Shaw anyhow.

  235. Dipwill says:

    “We’re talking about prehistory, and the relevant evidence is necessarily incomplete. It’s a stretch to assume that the Igbo were spending all their time smelting iron before the 9th century.”

    That is not what I am saying, but metal smelting seems to be among the few notable achievements/activites on the part of the Igbo for most of their history, and it seems unlikely there was much else going on. To this day, we have found very little urbanization in their region, so I think it is most likely the case their history has been relatively static.

    I am not denying that a millenium would be more than enough- however, you have not built a substantial case for what led to their higher intelligence, or if it is even significantly higher than other Nigerian groups and such.

    ““Inexact” data would be welcome. So far I’ve found no evidence that children from other West African groups perform at a high academic level, at least nothing comparable to what we see among the Igbo.”

    You are aware that in the US and Britain, immigrants from africa exhibit a very high level of academic achievement, and this is the case for most groups that do immigrate, and is variously the case in other European countries. Even then, they are altogether very small in number, regardless of country of origin. Nigerian immigrants in the west are overwhelmingly from the south, and after the Igbo, the Yoruba seem to be the second largest. At the same time, the Yoruba and Igbo are among the largest african ethnic groups, numbering over 40 million and 30 million respectively, and compared to other african immigrant groups, are less disproportionate in their achievement. The only clear picture we have of their academic achievement comes from these small immigrant populations, so it is difficult to say if they are significantly above other Nigerians.

    “That was the whole of his argument against natural selection. Greg Cochran felt it would be a waste of time to refute that paper point by point. I can’t help but agree.”

    No, I can clearly say that was not his entire argument against natural selection, I have already mentioned multiple other points against it. And you think it’s a waste of time to refute the paper point by point? Really? As far as I can tell, that is the only coherent attempt at critiquing NHAI in the decade since it was published, and they have barely expanded directly on the original paper. I have almost never seen them address it, and on the rare occasions they have, it’s been very cursory/dismissive, or they focus on Ferguson’s environmental approach. I can’t help but think they’re being unfair (arguably even dishonest) towards a detailed, nearly 40 page critique.

    For what it’s worth, we could also talk about how much more intelligent the Ashkenazi are compared to jewish groups- we don’t really know, but most of them are very likely above 100, unless you want to believe Lynn’s figures which puts them below 100, which ties in with his bizarre ideas about middle easterners. The more accurate Ashkenazi average of 110, and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.

    “Yes, Elmina is in Ghana, but there was considerable trade between it and the Benin kingdom. My argument was that metallurgy developed at a much later date in the kingdoms of northern and western Nigeria than it did among the Igbo. I also argued that these other metallurgy traditions were strongly influenced by Middle Eastern traditions, whereas the Ibo metallurgy tradition was largely indigenous.”

    I think you’re stretching the frame of your argument here. You were originally claiming Benin as both a city-state and empire formed due to trade with the Portuguese, then you claimed that they were trading with arabs and berbers by the time the Portuguese arrived, and now you are referring to arab and berber trade with the Akan who traded with Benin. Even then, it is questionable how extensive arab/berber trade with the Akan was in that time, since that region saw little cultural influence from Islam and the ultimate Akan state, Ashanti, did not form until some time after European trade began. It is undeniable that downstream, these areas have been economically influenced by trade (but again, heavy urbanization in the sahel region predates islam) with non-africans, since the region was contacted not long after Islam began, but it begins to stretch things if you talk about economic influence such as this as a major demarcation of local intellectual initiative.

    I am also not denying that european trade heavily influenced Benin, the Yoruba etc. (I posted a link discussing how Benin eventually began manufacturing it’s own firearms), but you have been claiming Benin as both a city-state and an empire, along with it’s artistic tradition, were formed due to European contact. That is not true, and it is even less true for the Yoruba, as Ile Ife and the art there predates european contact by a few centuries.

    “No, Igbo-Ukwu was occupied continuously up to the period of contact with European traders. We are looking at the same cultural tradition that led to present-day Igbo.”

    I have never heard of Igbo-Ukwu being inhabited until European contact, and the art produced there dates some time before European contact. And somewhere along the line, Igbo-Ukwu became abandoned as a city and the art forgotten- it wasn’t discovered and excavated until the 20th century. Igbo art produced outside of Igbo-Ukwu and up until modern times has been greatly inferior and hasn’t come close to the art at Igbo-Ukwu, so we are not looking at the same cultural tradition. And for what it’s worth, I’d forgotten the Yoruba were producing advanced art outside of Ile Ife, such as in the city of Owo, and to a lesser extent Ijebu, distinguishing them from both the Igbo and possibly Edo.

    It would be helpful if you could present evidence that the development of the art at Igbo-Ukwu was unique in comparison to however fragmented they were by then. At the same time, wouldn’t this mean that it was a subset, or certain subsets of the Igbo that were responsible for Igbo-Ukwu and it’s art? If that’s the case, it would seem to make more sense to talk about just part of the Igbo that are notably more intelligent as opposed to the group as a whole. You imply that the Igbo remained fragmented until quite recently, with the name being in a way imposed. So how did these intellectual advantages spread throughout the Igbo if:

    a) They were politically fragmented throughout their history until recently.

    b) By extension, Igbo-Ukwu, possibly the only city ever created by the Igbo with art only found there, was formed without conquest or patronage to the extent other Nigerian groups created their achievements, and was therefore due to a proportionately smaller subset(s) of the Igbo, and not representative of them as a whole.

    “Differences in survival and reproductive success. This was a point I made earlier about the Bengal famine of 1944. Traders perished in far greater numbers because they could not fall back on farming. Conversely, trade can produce wealth to a far greater degree than farming normally does. In a successful trading family, children can marry at a younger age and their life prospects are similarly better.”

    I honestly can’t say that general picture is unlikely for South Asia, nor do I disagree with most of Clarke’s work, which I am greatly familiar. His picture is quite different from NHAI, which hinges more strongly on specific selective pressures.

    “Actually, I think it does. It reflected the need, among hunter-gatherers, to store large quantities of spatio-temporal data. For instance, the location of a herd of game animals, how to get to them and how to get back home, mental simulations over time and space of where and when game animals will be available, etc.”

    Your framing of hunter-gatherer behavior (and when you have spoken of this phenomenon) applies only to northern hunter-gatherers, and this has been seen well outside of arctic regions. I got the impression you were referring to something unrelated to g, and if it is g, this would mean northern hunter-gatherers, in addition to having higher IQ’s, were very disproportionately skewed towards visuo-spatial and memory abilities. I think it’s highly unlikely that being a norther hunter-gatherer would require high intelligence at all, and whatever the case, similarly large brain size (and likely high intelligence) developed in multiple places much further south.

    If we could look at modern hunter-gatherers, australian aborigines and inuits would be illustrative cases. Richard Lynn found both of them have strong memory skills, with aborigines doing better than whites. He ties this in with the featureless landscapes of both their environments requiring the ability to memorize landmarks. While inuits have large brain sizes and likely high IQ’s, aborigines have small brains and low IQ’s (although I don’t think they’re at all as low as the figures Lynn gives.) Aborigines likewise have regions of the brain associated with memory that are disproportionately developed (this was noted in early anatomical studies, who drew bizarre associations with orangutan brains). At the same time, early aboriginal skulls are much larger than modern aboriginal ones and comparable to northern skulls, with the early australian environment likely being less demanding than the modern, more desertified ones. The environment that gave this advantage is much more narrow focused than most other hunter-gatherer environments, and I think is arguably the only sort of time you’d see this sort of cognitive profile arise.

    If it is something unrelated to g, I have never heard of any cognitive profile that would result in these kinds of abilities and this brain size and become common in a population yet be unrelated to g. With all of the failed attempts to find multiple intelligences and what other physiological correlates that would require, I don’t think it’s possible.

    Finally, I don’t think the decline has anything to do with metabolic demands, and the idea larger brains require that is dramatically overblown. People with brain sizes equal to or larger than hunter-gatherers are common today- they’re people of above average IQ (though not everyone with a high IQ has a larger brain- it could be more complex in other ways). Yet smart people (even geniuses) do not suffer any sort of unique metabolic or dietary demands compared to people with lower IQ’s/smaller and or less complex brains, and neither do they have more difficulty thriving. It would also beg asking why the brain size/intelligence advantage wasn’t sustained, but eventually selected to become less skewed. A cognitive advantage attained by a certain environment does not require that environment to sustain it, and can be used as the framework for an advantage in other. This is especially true for humans. Though why brain size/intelligence declined, I don’t know, but I think it was most likely drift, and hunter-gatherer environments and other simpler ones might be much more prone to drift with intelligence.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
    , @Jm8
  236. Dipwill says:
    @Dipwill

    A few things I want to add:

    -When I said “and groups like the Sephardim and Mizrahim, who are likely a few or several points and had this advantage for much longer, have never been considered in relation to NHAI.”, I meant to say “who are likely a few or several points lower” in respect to the Ashkenazi.

    -I do not know why you keep claiming the way in which other Nigerian groups developed is tangential. It is highly relevant if we want to figure out if the Igbo are significantly more intelligent than nearby groups, and you have repeatedly made the case the Igbo are more intelligent because they relied less on outside influence and were developing earlier than the others.

    -Going back to the subject of brain size and hunter-gatherers, wouldn’t we expect inuits and siberians who have become settled in modern conditions to see their brain size decrease, if their historically large size is due to memory storage and so they have less of a use? I don’t think this is likely to happen.

  237. @Enrique Cardova

    The need to adapt to cold and a yearly cycle led to an early “industrial revolution” (manufacture of tailored clothing and fine needles …

    the people who initiated any such “revolution” were Africans, that expanded in the more favorable environments of Eurasia in different eras.

    First needles 30,000yr before the Pyramids:

    Bone needles

    Late Magdalenian, about 12,500 years old
    From the cave of Courbet, Penne-Tarn, France

    Needles first appear in western Europe on Upper Palaeolithic sites about 35,000 years ago. They show not only a newly found skill in working bone, but also suggest that skins and furs were being used to make such items as clothes, shoes, tents, blankets, nets and bags, as well as the production of thread.

  238. @Enrique Cardova

    West Africans of Sierre Leone come out at number 16, higher than white Albania, Bosnia, Chile, Croatia, Turkey, Serbia, or white/”Caucasoid” Iraq, Kuwait, Columbia, Iran, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Algeria

    So the Middle East and Ottoman occupied Muslim balkans is “white”? Saudi Arabia and Columbia?

    • Replies: @Enrique Cardova
  239. Priss Factor [AKA "The Priss Factory"] says:

    http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2015/07/liberal-cognitive-dissonance-on-south-africa/

    The future of Europe.

    There should a law forcing Liberals to suffer the consequences of their actions.

    They foul it up for others but live in privilege.

  240. @Hippopotamusdrome

    For all intents and purposes, under American and European racial constructs, they are “white.” Saudi Arabians in the US for example are classified as white. Here is how the US census classifies people from the “Middle East.”

    “White. A person having origins in any of the original peoples of Europe, the Middle East, or North Africa. It includes people who indicate their race as “White” or report entries such as Irish, German, Italian, Lebanese, Arab, Moroccan, or Caucasian. ”
    –US Census- http://quickfacts.census.gov/

    And Europeans in part, drive from migrants from the Middle East in past eras. Re Colombians, Colombian immigrants to the US for the most part classify themselves as “white” (Portes 2007- The New Latin Nation). In Colombia, the self-identification is different, and one census puts Indians mixed with whites as a majority followed by whites. But an actual genetic study by Prof. Emilio Yunis, Dircetor Genetics Department at the National University puts the Columbian population at 65% “white,” with proportions of whiteness varying by region. [Wikipedia - Race and Ethnicity in Columbia-Note 2.] If this is correct, even though someone may say they are “mestizo” on the official government check-box, they may actually have a preponderance of European derived genes.

    Also keep in mind that “Muslim” denotes a religious category not a “racial” one.

  241. Hibernian says:
    @Svigor

    It has been said that Jews earn like Episcopalians and vote like Puerto Ricans. I think since at least 2008 it could be said that Liberal Protestants including Episcopalians vote like Jews and/or Puerto Ricans.

  242. Hibernian says:
    @Truth

    Try 15-45. In the culture I grew up in, people who had their 1st kid at a young age often had a bunch of kids the last of which was born when the father and mother were middle aged. At least one nephew was older than his uncle. And this was no redneck culture (well maybe a little redneck compared to lakefront Chicago where I live now.)

  243. Jm8 says:
    @Dipwill

    Don’t forget the Nok culture of central Nigeria (Jos Plateau) ca. 1,000 bc-200d, which smelted iron ca. 1,000 bc-200 ad ( one of the earliest iron metallurgy dates in West Af. after the Igbo and also thought now to be indigenous). It is known for its hollow terracotta sculptures.

    http://archive.archaeology.org/1107/features/nok_nigeria_africa_terracotta.html

    https://www.google.com/search?

    q=nok+terracotta&biw=1212&bih=898&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&sqi=2&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAWoVChMIiLG6yOPZxgIVi1weCh3tFQvu#tbm=isch&q=nok+culture+art

    • Replies: @Jm8
  244. ogunsiron says:

    The Tukulor of Senegal, for instance, were originally called the “two colors” by European travellers because some of them were light-skinned and others dark-skinned.
    —-
    That doesn’t sound very likely. The “Toucouleur”, as they’re called in french, live between Senegal and Mauritania and in that area there was a medieval kingdom called Tekrur. Given that R and L get mixed up all the time , it’s quite easy to see how Tekrur could have gotten transcribed into toucouleur in french.
    The toucouleur live right on the border between the black african and the berber world, so one would expect them to be fairly diverse in their color range.

  245. Currently one cannot rely on the examples given in Chisala’s article.

    http://drjamesthompson.blogspot.co.uk/2015/07/chanda-chisala-african-hereditarian.html

    • Replies: @PandaAtWar
  246. Bayonet says:
    @Truth

    Willfully misunderstanding a theory in order to be offended by it is a pretty silly way to argue.

  247. @Dr James Thompson

    Just visited your site, kudos, Dr Thompson, for the long analysis!

    Panda had guessed sth fishy about Chanda Chisala’s wild claims actually at the first glance.

    So it turns out that almost the entire sample detail is “mystically” missing? haha, talk about the voodoo science…

    The chance that Igbo average beat Chinese average in the UK 2007 GCSE was about as a close as that the Sun rose from the West, as if test-loving Chinese somehow collectively have had diarrhea on the test date. It would have required some powerful divine interventions. ROFL

  248. raph says:

    @dipwill, what are you trying to prove exactly by underrating the authenticity of the exceptional arts of igbo-ukwu? your responses are subtly biased.

    • Replies: @Dipwill
  249. Dipwill says:
    @raph

    I did not disparage the artistic achievements of Igbo-Ukwu in any way. The closest I came to that was remarking that art of this quality on the part of the Igbo did not extend outside of Igbo-Ukwu, and that the Yoruba (and possibly Bini) had advanced, pre-colonial art in multiple cities.

    I might have come off as disparaging with what I have said about Igbo history, but I didn’t mean it to be that way. I do think it’s most likely the case the Igbo are more intelligent than other Nigerians, but their history does not support the idea their social selection functioned in this way, or that they really are significantly more intelligent.

  250. @candid_observer

    Who said Afro-Caribbeans in the UK were from a “high achieving group” background. They were not. The people who were brought after WWII to the UK were for low level work.

  251. It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country. Also, they view their conationals with disdain: http://www.vanguardngr.com/2015/12/biafra-surprises-from-the-north/

    • Replies: @Gandydancer
  252. @Ginger Bread Man

    “It seems like some Igbos want to leave Nigeria and form their own country…”

    Ya think? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nigerian_Civil_War

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