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Evolution of Long Hair
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Swan princess, John Bauer (1882-1918). Human head hair is of relatively recent origin, reaching incredible lengths in some groups but not in others. Credit: Wikimedia Commons
Swan princess, John Bauer (1882-1918). Human head hair is of relatively recent origin, reaching incredible lengths in some groups but not in others. Credit: Wikimedia Commons

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I’ve published an article on the evolution of long head hair in humans. The following is the abstract:

In many humans, head hair can grow to a much greater length than hair elsewhere on the body. This is a “derived” form that evolved outside Africa and probably in northern Eurasia. The ancestral form, which is frizzier and much shorter, survives in sub-Saharan Africans and in other groups whose ancestors never left the tropics. This original hair form is nonetheless relatively straight and silky during infancy. Head hair thus seems to have lengthened in two stages: 1) retention of the infant hair form at older ages; and 2) further lengthening to mid-back and even waist lengths. These changes seem to have gone farther in women, whose head hair is thicker and somewhat longer. The most popular evolutionary explanations are: 1) relaxation of selection for short hair; and 2) sexual selection for women with long hair. Neither hypothesis is satisfactory. The first one cannot explain why head hair lengthened so dramatically over so little time. The second hypothesis suffers from the assumption that some populations have remained naturally short-haired because they consider long-haired women undesirable. Almost the opposite is true in traditional African cultures, which have a long history of lengthening and straightening women’s hair. It is argued here that sexual selection produced different outcomes in different populations not because standards of beauty differed but because the intensity of sexual selection differed. In the tropical zone, sexual selection acted more on men than on women and was thus too weak to enhance desirable female characteristics. This situation reversed as ancestral humans spread northward into environments that tended to limit polygyny while increasing male mortality. Because fewer men were available for mating, women faced a more competitive mate market and were selected more severely.

Reference

Frost, P. (2015). Evolution of long head hair in humans, Advances in Anthropology, 5, 274-281.
http://www.scirp.org/Journal/PaperInformation.aspx?PaperID=60916

(Republished from Evo and Proud by permission of author or representative)
 
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  1. I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Yep.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    Physicists use plausibility arguments too, in the real world you are not going to get a mathematical proof.
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  2. Sean says:
    @The Grate Deign
    I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed's article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Yep.

    Physicists use plausibility arguments too, in the real world you are not going to get a mathematical proof.

    Read More
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  3. Miterse says:

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long. The tendency to straighten hair in women is not universal in SS africa, and is seldom seen in other curly-haired populations outside of Africa, and is also less common in eastern africa. I would hesitate to call straight hair “derived” given that no primate has curly/wooly hair, or really many mammals at all.

    Your bit about face shape has issues too, and how you narrowly rank things on a scale of neoteny. Infants also have flatter, upturned noses, among other things, and human facial aesthetics are better seen on a scale of symmetry as opposed to anything directly relating to neoteny or ancestral/derived. A larger face goes better with larger eyes, a relatively wider nose, mouth, larger teeth etc. and a comparatively proportioned body. Prognathism is proportioned with nasal projection and position so it is not so exposed, but an orthognathic jaw can also be misproportioned where the upper maxilla is overly projecting and curved upward, like a snout.

    You can talk about prognathism, but you should also consider why east asians and mongoloid populations in general have such large faces, or how some africans like nilotes (including the very dark south sudanese) are often orthognathic. Adult human face shape has not become clearly more “infant-like” as they spread into eurasia.

    Your understanding of human physical variation and aesthetics really leaves a lot to be desired.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; "frontal skill eminences") They also tend to have a less prominent brow ridge than Europeans.

    "Ashley Montagu lists "neotenous structural traits in which...Negroids [generally] differ from Caucasoids... flattish nose, flat root of the nose, narrower ears, narrower joints, frontal skull eminences, later closure of premaxillary sutures, less hairy..."

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroid#Neoteny
    , @dcite
    Of course it grows. All hair grows -- that's what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently.
    I don't know if you'd call them natural short-haired, any more than a curly haired Arab would be naturally short haired. I was shocked to see that a majority of Nigerians wear weave. Only 20 years ago, most did not have artificial hair and wore their hair short. A Kenyan told me that in East Africa, long haired blacks are assumed to be Ethiopian or Somali, but many of these two groups also have the very curly, short haired look too. It's an adaptation to the climate probably, and is a totally unique hair form. One guy told me that blacks think white people's hair smells like dog fur when wet; I wondered: why just white peoples' hair? Middle eastern, Chinese, Indians, their hair also smells when it's wet.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Sean says:

    Lets not imply European women don’t alter their hair. Young white females who go clubbing get hair extensions, and often blonde ones. They are not trying to look more white, because the fake blonde is rarely pale (tanning salons) and often has a fake tan or heavy bronzer. They’re trying to look more eye-catching with the huge bottle blonde mane, and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here.

    In 1959, African-American actress Cicely Tyson did something that had never been done before. She broke with Black community norms and wore non-straightened hair on national television. She sported an afro hairdo. No other Black woman had revealed her natural hair on the screen.

    Currently, “Nearly six out of 10 [US female] Black consumers wear a wig, weave or extensions,.” I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women.
    Miterse needs to read up on prognathism and noses as they relate to 2D:4D and face shape.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse
    "and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here. "

    What does this even mean?

    "I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. "

    Because women can grow their hair in abundance more easily than men. This isn't just about africans either. There's no evidence africans can't grow their hair in abundance (although it does grow more slowly) or that their type of hair is incapable of that. This is mainly Peter overlooking something glaringly obvious.

    What should I be aware of regarding face shape?

    , @Jm8
    "I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women."

    I have not found this. If true, it probably reflects (current) differences in style preference rather than ability. Very long dreadlocks can also be seen on blacks, particularly on Afro-Caribbeans including men. Afro-Caribbeans islanders in general (in the English and French Caribbean at least) are more purely African than American blacks(Both are predominantly African).
    , @Jm8
    Various African women from the Ivory coast with long kinky hairstyles

    https://face2faceafrica.com/gallery/natural-hair-ivory-coast

    traditional kinky hairstyles of the Ashanti people, Ghana

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/506092076847970013/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=natural+hair+africa&biw=1109&bih=680&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAj7f8k6TJAhXMLSYKHW2NCJwQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1#tbm=isch&q=akan+hairstyles&imgrc=B4WEWhCW5yR1bM%3A
    , @Triumph104
    Angela Davis had a large and very tamed afro. I don't know why you think it is untamed.


    This is an example of an untamed afro. http://naturallymoi.com/2014/06/cancer-survivor-fired-for-refusing-to-tame-her-afro/
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  5. Miterse says:
    @Sean
    Lets not imply European women don't alter their hair. Young white females who go clubbing get hair extensions, and often blonde ones. They are not trying to look more white, because the fake blonde is rarely pale (tanning salons) and often has a fake tan or heavy bronzer. They're trying to look more eye-catching with the huge bottle blonde mane, and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here.

    In 1959, African-American actress Cicely Tyson did something that had never been done before. She broke with Black community norms and wore non-straightened hair on national television. She sported an afro hairdo. No other Black woman had revealed her natural hair on the screen.
     
    Currently, "Nearly six out of 10 [US female] Black consumers wear a wig, weave or extensions,." I'm not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L0911-029,_Berlin,_Erich_Honecker_empf%C3%A4ngt_Angela_Davis.jpg

    Miterse needs to read up on prognathism and noses as they relate to 2D:4D and face shape.

    “and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here. ”

    What does this even mean?

    “I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. ”

    Because women can grow their hair in abundance more easily than men. This isn’t just about africans either. There’s no evidence africans can’t grow their hair in abundance (although it does grow more slowly) or that their type of hair is incapable of that. This is mainly Peter overlooking something glaringly obvious.

    What should I be aware of regarding face shape?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  6. Sean says:
    @Miterse
    "and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here. "

    What does this even mean?

    "I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. "

    Because women can grow their hair in abundance more easily than men. This isn't just about africans either. There's no evidence africans can't grow their hair in abundance (although it does grow more slowly) or that their type of hair is incapable of that. This is mainly Peter overlooking something glaringly obvious.

    What should I be aware of regarding face shape?

    I’m sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse
    Yes, by European standards, they can't. Their hair grows outward in what's often called an "afro", which I already said. As opposed to greater length, it grows in greater density (which is an increasing gradient you see moving away from bone-straight), and they can still easily grow an abundance of hair, just in a denser, outward pattern.

    That is much different from their hair being literally "shorter", where Peter quotes a 100+ year old line from Darwin that "in the negro the hair forms a mere curly mat" to support the idea they and people with similar hair can't grow significant amounts.

    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious Peter has been overlooking something really blatantly obvious and that the people who've reviewed his papers on this somehow haven't bothered to point this out.

    , @Anonymous

    I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.
     
    Peter,

    Do you think you could write a post about this issue?

    It's long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there's some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You've argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren't related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?
    , @JustMe
    My hair is wavy. When I straighten it with a hot iron, it is about 4 inches longer than in its natural wavy state. I suspect that African women's hair would apear to be at least double or triple longer if it were straightned. However, regularly straightening hair with a hot iron damages hair and can cause it to break over time, thereby shortening it. So even though African hair may grow to be very long, it won't look long if it's not straightened, but if it's regularly straightened it will break off. In addition, many African women have historically groomed their hair by tightly braiding it, since until the last century regularly straigtening with heat and chemicals wasn't a realistic option for most women of any race. Very tight braiding conceals the length of the hair and can cause hair to break, though it's much less destructive than a hot iron. So overall, it's much more difficult for African hair to easily appear as long as "white" hair simply because of the difference in texture.
    , @EvolutionistX
    "although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women."
    In cold weather, you want your body fat spread out all over for insulation. In hot weather, you want your body fat concentrated in one spot to keep you cooler. The butt is as good a spot for fat concentration as any.
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  7. Miterse says:
    @Sean
    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    Yes, by European standards, they can’t. Their hair grows outward in what’s often called an “afro”, which I already said. As opposed to greater length, it grows in greater density (which is an increasing gradient you see moving away from bone-straight), and they can still easily grow an abundance of hair, just in a denser, outward pattern.

    That is much different from their hair being literally “shorter”, where Peter quotes a 100+ year old line from Darwin that “in the negro the hair forms a mere curly mat” to support the idea they and people with similar hair can’t grow significant amounts.

    I’m sorry, but it seems obvious Peter has been overlooking something really blatantly obvious and that the people who’ve reviewed his papers on this somehow haven’t bothered to point this out.

    Read More
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  8. Jm8 says:
    @Miterse
    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally "short-haired", contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn't grow long. The tendency to straighten hair in women is not universal in SS africa, and is seldom seen in other curly-haired populations outside of Africa, and is also less common in eastern africa. I would hesitate to call straight hair "derived" given that no primate has curly/wooly hair, or really many mammals at all.

    Your bit about face shape has issues too, and how you narrowly rank things on a scale of neoteny. Infants also have flatter, upturned noses, among other things, and human facial aesthetics are better seen on a scale of symmetry as opposed to anything directly relating to neoteny or ancestral/derived. A larger face goes better with larger eyes, a relatively wider nose, mouth, larger teeth etc. and a comparatively proportioned body. Prognathism is proportioned with nasal projection and position so it is not so exposed, but an orthognathic jaw can also be misproportioned where the upper maxilla is overly projecting and curved upward, like a snout.

    You can talk about prognathism, but you should also consider why east asians and mongoloid populations in general have such large faces, or how some africans like nilotes (including the very dark south sudanese) are often orthognathic. Adult human face shape has not become clearly more "infant-like" as they spread into eurasia.

    Your understanding of human physical variation and aesthetics really leaves a lot to be desired.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”) They also tend to have a less prominent brow ridge than Europeans.

    “Ashley Montagu lists “neotenous structural traits in which…Negroids [generally] differ from Caucasoids… flattish nose, flat root of the nose, narrower ears, narrower joints, frontal skull eminences, later closure of premaxillary sutures, less hairy…”

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negroid#Neoteny

    Read More
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  9. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    Peter,

    Do you think you could write a post about this issue?

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Read More
    • Replies: @B.R.
    The theory I heard says that it is so because having the fat tissue mostly in lower body areas-buttocks, thighs makes tolerating high temperatures easier.

    Since being too skinny indicates a problem, it'd follow that an African woman with same amount of body fat is going to look more 'curvy' than an Eurasian one, which might be why there is a preference for such a look.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. Jm8 says:
    @Sean
    Lets not imply European women don't alter their hair. Young white females who go clubbing get hair extensions, and often blonde ones. They are not trying to look more white, because the fake blonde is rarely pale (tanning salons) and often has a fake tan or heavy bronzer. They're trying to look more eye-catching with the huge bottle blonde mane, and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here.

    In 1959, African-American actress Cicely Tyson did something that had never been done before. She broke with Black community norms and wore non-straightened hair on national television. She sported an afro hairdo. No other Black woman had revealed her natural hair on the screen.
     
    Currently, "Nearly six out of 10 [US female] Black consumers wear a wig, weave or extensions,." I'm not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L0911-029,_Berlin,_Erich_Honecker_empf%C3%A4ngt_Angela_Davis.jpg

    Miterse needs to read up on prognathism and noses as they relate to 2D:4D and face shape.

    “I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women.”

    I have not found this. If true, it probably reflects (current) differences in style preference rather than ability. Very long dreadlocks can also be seen on blacks, particularly on Afro-Caribbeans including men. Afro-Caribbeans islanders in general (in the English and French Caribbean at least) are more purely African than American blacks(Both are predominantly African).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    Also afros, were associated with the black power movement, which was based in America, contributing to their (from about the 1970's-recently) possibly greater popularity with US blacks.
    , @Michelle
    Often, Black women wish to grow their hair long but they also want it straightened. Harsh chemicals cause the hair to break off. The longer it gets the more chances there are to have overlapped the straightening chemicals causing breakage. This is the reason some Black women have for not being able to grow their hair long. Also, their hair may be much longer than it appears. Curly hair looks long when it is wet but springs up when dry making it appear shorter.
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  11. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8
    "I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women."

    I have not found this. If true, it probably reflects (current) differences in style preference rather than ability. Very long dreadlocks can also be seen on blacks, particularly on Afro-Caribbeans including men. Afro-Caribbeans islanders in general (in the English and French Caribbean at least) are more purely African than American blacks(Both are predominantly African).

    Also afros, were associated with the black power movement, which was based in America, contributing to their (from about the 1970′s-recently) possibly greater popularity with US blacks.

    Read More
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  12. I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Humans aren’t the same now as they were 40,000 years ago or even 10,000 years ago. We know this when we examine DNA from ancient human remains and even when we examine present-day DNA. Natural selection has modified at least 7% of the human genome over the last 40,000 years.

    The word “plausibility” becomes more apt when we talk about evolution over longer time scales, but that isn’t the subject of this post.

    As for Fred Reed, I’ve come to the conclusion that there are personal reasons for his opposition to evolutionary thinking. I could argue the pros and cons of intelligent design with him but I don’t see the point. That’s not really the issue.

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long.

    I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Steatopygia is most prevalent in the Khoisan hunter-gatherers of southern Africa. It seems to be a very old characteristic that predates the period of agriculture, female farming and maximum female reproductive autonomy, i.e., the period when sexual selection of African women was relaxed. I suspect it reflects an earlier time when polygyny was more limited in Africans and when there was some selection pressure on African women.

    If we look at Khoisans in recent times, they actually have low polygyny rates and relatively high female-female rivalry for male mates. Among the !Kung, about 75% of all women lose some reproductive time while waiting between partners, and 10–20% lose 5 to 15 years. Nancy Howell concluded that “A relative scarcity of husbands, then, is a regular and expected part of the !Kung marriage system” (Howell, 1979, pp. 247–250).

    Howell, N. (1979). Demography of the Dobe !Kung. New York7 Academic Press.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    Please stay on topic. This isn’t a post about “Negroid” brains.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    "Please stay on topic. This isn’t a post about “Negroid” brains."

    I was more referring to neoteny, (also replying to Miterse's comment).

    But, noted.
    , @Anonymous
    So if the bigger buttocks did evolve due to sexual selection, why do you suppose this preference for bigger buttocks developed, since it's not seen in non-African men and thus isn't universal? One of your points about the sexual selection of light coloration was that women everywhere are lighter than their male counterparts and that there is an ingrained universal preference for lighter women that is the source for the sexual selection of lighter women. If this isn't the case with bigger buttocks, what do you suppose is the source for the preference for bigger buttocks among African men? Was it just random whim?
    , @Triumph104

    I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.
     
    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair, such as dreadlocks or at least long-term braids and twists. Yes, afro-textured air is brittle and once it starts receiving routine combing, curling, styling, perming, etc., it is going to break or shed never reaching its true growth potential. Few black women are going to forgo manipulating their hair.

    The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women's natural hair or hair pieces. It is best to see the hair loose and both wet and dry. The YouTuber Sera2544 is from Sierra Leone and managed to grow her afro-textured hair waist length but didn't maintain it after having children.

    As for black American women, the YouTuber Kimmaytube has waist-length afro-textured hair and she has 10 percent European ancestry. Most of the successful black YouTube channels promoting long hair are run by black or mixed-race women who have curly hair not afro-textured. Black celebrities noted for their long hair have curly hair not afro-textured: Aliyah, young Jada Pinkett, Ananda Lewis, the model Wanakee.
    , @Anonymous
    Does 'apron' still occur with Khoisan women ?


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elongated_labia

    http://news.softpedia.com/news/What-is-Steatopygia-51231.shtml
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  13. Jm8 says:
    @Sean
    Lets not imply European women don't alter their hair. Young white females who go clubbing get hair extensions, and often blonde ones. They are not trying to look more white, because the fake blonde is rarely pale (tanning salons) and often has a fake tan or heavy bronzer. They're trying to look more eye-catching with the huge bottle blonde mane, and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here.

    In 1959, African-American actress Cicely Tyson did something that had never been done before. She broke with Black community norms and wore non-straightened hair on national television. She sported an afro hairdo. No other Black woman had revealed her natural hair on the screen.
     
    Currently, "Nearly six out of 10 [US female] Black consumers wear a wig, weave or extensions,." I'm not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L0911-029,_Berlin,_Erich_Honecker_empf%C3%A4ngt_Angela_Davis.jpg

    Miterse needs to read up on prognathism and noses as they relate to 2D:4D and face shape.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    Edit: Various pictures of various African women from the Ivory coast, some pictures showing long kinky hairstyles(namely pics 2, 4, 9, and 12, of 21).
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  14. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8
    Various African women from the Ivory coast with long kinky hairstyles

    https://face2faceafrica.com/gallery/natural-hair-ivory-coast

    traditional kinky hairstyles of the Ashanti people, Ghana

    https://www.pinterest.com/pin/506092076847970013/

    https://www.google.com/search?q=natural+hair+africa&biw=1109&bih=680&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjAj7f8k6TJAhXMLSYKHW2NCJwQ_AUIBigB&dpr=1#tbm=isch&q=akan+hairstyles&imgrc=B4WEWhCW5yR1bM%3A

    Edit: Various pictures of various African women from the Ivory coast, some pictures showing long kinky hairstyles(namely pics 2, 4, 9, and 12, of 21).

    Read More
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  15. Jm8 says:
    @Peter Frost
    I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Humans aren't the same now as they were 40,000 years ago or even 10,000 years ago. We know this when we examine DNA from ancient human remains and even when we examine present-day DNA. Natural selection has modified at least 7% of the human genome over the last 40,000 years.

    The word "plausibility" becomes more apt when we talk about evolution over longer time scales, but that isn't the subject of this post.

    As for Fred Reed, I've come to the conclusion that there are personal reasons for his opposition to evolutionary thinking. I could argue the pros and cons of intelligent design with him but I don't see the point. That's not really the issue.

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long.

    I'm talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn't grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Steatopygia is most prevalent in the Khoisan hunter-gatherers of southern Africa. It seems to be a very old characteristic that predates the period of agriculture, female farming and maximum female reproductive autonomy, i.e., the period when sexual selection of African women was relaxed. I suspect it reflects an earlier time when polygyny was more limited in Africans and when there was some selection pressure on African women.

    If we look at Khoisans in recent times, they actually have low polygyny rates and relatively high female-female rivalry for male mates. Among the !Kung, about 75% of all women lose some reproductive time while waiting between partners, and 10–20% lose 5 to 15 years. Nancy Howell concluded that "A relative scarcity of husbands, then, is a regular and expected part of the !Kung marriage system" (Howell, 1979, pp. 247–250).

    Howell, N. (1979). Demography of the Dobe !Kung. New York7 Academic Press.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    Please stay on topic. This isn't a post about "Negroid" brains.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    “Please stay on topic. This isn’t a post about “Negroid” brains.”

    I was more referring to neoteny, (also replying to Miterse’s comment).

    But, noted.

    Read More
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  16. B.R. says:
    @Anonymous

    I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.
     
    Peter,

    Do you think you could write a post about this issue?

    It's long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there's some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You've argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren't related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    The theory I heard says that it is so because having the fat tissue mostly in lower body areas-buttocks, thighs makes tolerating high temperatures easier.

    Since being too skinny indicates a problem, it’d follow that an African woman with same amount of body fat is going to look more ‘curvy’ than an Eurasian one, which might be why there is a preference for such a look.

    Read More
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  17. Rich says:

    I don’t know, I’m no expert in this field, but isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins? Up until now, it’s true, that the oldest human ancestor was found in Africa, but does that rule out unknown ancestors in the North? Although apparently out of favor, for political reasons, weren’t Java Man or Peking Man thought to be the oldest direct ancestors of modern man? It seems to me that we are only just on the threshold of this field and have a long way to go before we can make definitive statements about the various differences between the races.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    I don’t know, I’m no expert in this field, but isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins?

    Do not have a common ancestor, but procreate willingly and 100% as efficiently as intra-species couples?

    Richard, now, come on...
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  18. dcite says:
    @Miterse
    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally "short-haired", contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn't grow long. The tendency to straighten hair in women is not universal in SS africa, and is seldom seen in other curly-haired populations outside of Africa, and is also less common in eastern africa. I would hesitate to call straight hair "derived" given that no primate has curly/wooly hair, or really many mammals at all.

    Your bit about face shape has issues too, and how you narrowly rank things on a scale of neoteny. Infants also have flatter, upturned noses, among other things, and human facial aesthetics are better seen on a scale of symmetry as opposed to anything directly relating to neoteny or ancestral/derived. A larger face goes better with larger eyes, a relatively wider nose, mouth, larger teeth etc. and a comparatively proportioned body. Prognathism is proportioned with nasal projection and position so it is not so exposed, but an orthognathic jaw can also be misproportioned where the upper maxilla is overly projecting and curved upward, like a snout.

    You can talk about prognathism, but you should also consider why east asians and mongoloid populations in general have such large faces, or how some africans like nilotes (including the very dark south sudanese) are often orthognathic. Adult human face shape has not become clearly more "infant-like" as they spread into eurasia.

    Your understanding of human physical variation and aesthetics really leaves a lot to be desired.

    Of course it grows. All hair grows — that’s what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently.
    I don’t know if you’d call them natural short-haired, any more than a curly haired Arab would be naturally short haired. I was shocked to see that a majority of Nigerians wear weave. Only 20 years ago, most did not have artificial hair and wore their hair short. A Kenyan told me that in East Africa, long haired blacks are assumed to be Ethiopian or Somali, but many of these two groups also have the very curly, short haired look too. It’s an adaptation to the climate probably, and is a totally unique hair form. One guy told me that blacks think white people’s hair smells like dog fur when wet; I wondered: why just white peoples’ hair? Middle eastern, Chinese, Indians, their hair also smells when it’s wet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse
    "Of course it grows. All hair grows — that’s what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently."

    Do you have any evidence for this? African hair grows more slowly, but I've seen no evidence it's directly related to curliness, even within race. Or that african hair grows at identical rates regardless of gender. That's a very new one to me.
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  19. Miterse says:

    “I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.”

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past with the same reasoning and nearly the same references, making it clear this is about the idea africans and similar populations not being able to grow their hair “long” in all regards, beyond a few inches like Darwin claims. They can definitely grow their hair long, but it’s an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be “shorter”, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t compensate (or that they can’t grow huge afros that extend many inches beyond their head, and are equal in length to very long straight hair). Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal.

    It’s true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. But you didn’t just focus on this, you claim their hair type is incapable of growing long and this is true of people people with that hair throughout the world. But if you look at most any other kinky-haired population, you don’t see what’s found in africans. Afros and similar hair styles are the rule. Papuans, melanesians, various negritos etc. do not wear their hair like africans. And even east africans frequently have afro hairstyles, this being common in the past- ethiopian church art depicts even religious figures and angels with them.

    You could theorize why africans overwhelmingly have this distinct tendency of wearing their hair dramatically unlike what they were born with, but you claiming their type of hair can’t grow long and this fixation on bone-straight, below the back hair as being inherently most attractive is bizarre. What it comes down to is you’ve overlooked something obvious in your attempt to tie in hair into a sort of grand theory of sexual selection, and nobody has corrected you on this.

    You also haven’t replied to my remarks about facial structure. You have remarked before that Europeans have a “childlike” face, not only in relation to africans, but even Jews, Roma, and other mediterranean populations, whom you call more “robust”, which is a near-baseless claim. Europeans do not have particularly small faces (unless you compare them to asian populations), and it’s doubtful they’re smaller, or to any significant degree compared to non-northern europeans.

    The other modern person I can think of who’s said such things is Erik Holland of “femininebeauty.info”, a site you’re likely aware of. He’s a nordicist who’s mainly focused on facial structure, and acts as if northern europeans have such tiny, “derived” faces, and fixates on small faces as being an ideal. I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being “nordic” and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes “nordics” are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He’s also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he’s written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacist site Majorityrights under the name “J Richards” (which he denies despite the incredible similarities) and became infamous there for his propensity for any conspiracy theory you can name and a penchant for accusing detractors of being jewish infiltrators, along with just how unhinged he could be (look at his arguments from 2005-2006 and his hatred of indians, though this was changed to east asians on his other site.) Curiously, the popularity of slavic women is absent from his writing, or the reputation the British have for being among the least attractive whites.

    I go into this detail because I’m curious if you’ve taken any cues from him and given how he’s among the only other person who’s written at such lengths on aesthetics in these circles. But he’s not a reliable or sane authority.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    It’s true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. "

    This is not the case. Hair straightening does not predate colonialism(or not much) and requires, heat treating, or chemical treatments(lye, then hair relaxer.), the later of which(relaxer) was invented in the twentieth century. None of these were common in Africa before then(though lye was sometimes used by American slaves in the 19th c.). Longer female hairstyles in pre-colonial Africa were n0t straight. Some were braided, others were like the Ashanti styes I linked (different types of tied afro-sections or chignons). Dreadlocks were sometimes worn by certain people(e.g.: Ashanti fetish priests of both sexes). As for men; some shaved their heads or wore their hair short, some did not depending on tribe, station and occupation.
    , @TWS
    Could you point and shriek "racist" louder? The people in the back row can't hear you very well.
    , @joe webb
    funny that ....'I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being “nordic” and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes “nordics” are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He’s also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he’s written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacy....

    very surprising since all the art of Greco-Roman world has a Nordic look to it.

    So who's crazy here?

    The Latin tribes as well as the Greek tribes that moved south about a thousand to two thousand years BC and displaced as well as blended with folks like the Etruscans...came out of the same area, ar
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  20. Miterse says:
    @dcite
    Of course it grows. All hair grows -- that's what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently.
    I don't know if you'd call them natural short-haired, any more than a curly haired Arab would be naturally short haired. I was shocked to see that a majority of Nigerians wear weave. Only 20 years ago, most did not have artificial hair and wore their hair short. A Kenyan told me that in East Africa, long haired blacks are assumed to be Ethiopian or Somali, but many of these two groups also have the very curly, short haired look too. It's an adaptation to the climate probably, and is a totally unique hair form. One guy told me that blacks think white people's hair smells like dog fur when wet; I wondered: why just white peoples' hair? Middle eastern, Chinese, Indians, their hair also smells when it's wet.

    “Of course it grows. All hair grows — that’s what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently.”

    Do you have any evidence for this? African hair grows more slowly, but I’ve seen no evidence it’s directly related to curliness, even within race. Or that african hair grows at identical rates regardless of gender. That’s a very new one to me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @dcite
    It is well known -- among hair dressers for one group -- that curly hair grows more slowly. There have been scientific studies posted on the web. When curls are wet or combed straight, they do hang down a lot longer, but they dry, they bounce closer to the head. I doubt it bothered anybody as most [white] people with curly hair did not actually want it to be very long. Asian hair grows faster than Caucasian. This has nothing to do with any sort of aesthetic judgment as I could care less. Shorter hair has been more the style among all races in the 20th century anyway. Even now.
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  21. Jm8 says:
    @Miterse
    "I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle."

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past with the same reasoning and nearly the same references, making it clear this is about the idea africans and similar populations not being able to grow their hair "long" in all regards, beyond a few inches like Darwin claims. They can definitely grow their hair long, but it's an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be "shorter", that doesn't mean it doesn't compensate (or that they can't grow huge afros that extend many inches beyond their head, and are equal in length to very long straight hair). Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal.

    It's true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. But you didn't just focus on this, you claim their hair type is incapable of growing long and this is true of people people with that hair throughout the world. But if you look at most any other kinky-haired population, you don't see what's found in africans. Afros and similar hair styles are the rule. Papuans, melanesians, various negritos etc. do not wear their hair like africans. And even east africans frequently have afro hairstyles, this being common in the past- ethiopian church art depicts even religious figures and angels with them.

    You could theorize why africans overwhelmingly have this distinct tendency of wearing their hair dramatically unlike what they were born with, but you claiming their type of hair can't grow long and this fixation on bone-straight, below the back hair as being inherently most attractive is bizarre. What it comes down to is you've overlooked something obvious in your attempt to tie in hair into a sort of grand theory of sexual selection, and nobody has corrected you on this.

    You also haven't replied to my remarks about facial structure. You have remarked before that Europeans have a "childlike" face, not only in relation to africans, but even Jews, Roma, and other mediterranean populations, whom you call more "robust", which is a near-baseless claim. Europeans do not have particularly small faces (unless you compare them to asian populations), and it's doubtful they're smaller, or to any significant degree compared to non-northern europeans.

    The other modern person I can think of who's said such things is Erik Holland of "femininebeauty.info", a site you're likely aware of. He's a nordicist who's mainly focused on facial structure, and acts as if northern europeans have such tiny, "derived" faces, and fixates on small faces as being an ideal. I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being "nordic" and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes "nordics" are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He's also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he's written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacist site Majorityrights under the name "J Richards" (which he denies despite the incredible similarities) and became infamous there for his propensity for any conspiracy theory you can name and a penchant for accusing detractors of being jewish infiltrators, along with just how unhinged he could be (look at his arguments from 2005-2006 and his hatred of indians, though this was changed to east asians on his other site.) Curiously, the popularity of slavic women is absent from his writing, or the reputation the British have for being among the least attractive whites.

    I go into this detail because I'm curious if you've taken any cues from him and given how he's among the only other person who's written at such lengths on aesthetics in these circles. But he's not a reliable or sane authority.

    It’s true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. ”

    This is not the case. Hair straightening does not predate colonialism(or not much) and requires, heat treating, or chemical treatments(lye, then hair relaxer.), the later of which(relaxer) was invented in the twentieth century. None of these were common in Africa before then(though lye was sometimes used by American slaves in the 19th c.). Longer female hairstyles in pre-colonial Africa were n0t straight. Some were braided, others were like the Ashanti styes I linked (different types of tied afro-sections or chignons). Dreadlocks were sometimes worn by certain people(e.g.: Ashanti fetish priests of both sexes). As for men; some shaved their heads or wore their hair short, some did not depending on tribe, station and occupation.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse
    Braided and dreaded styles are in a sense straighter. "Straighter" eurasian-type hair wasn't seen, but hair styles very different from afros and outward-growing styles were most common. They have also been known to use things like heated rocks to straighten hair.
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  22. @Sean
    Lets not imply European women don't alter their hair. Young white females who go clubbing get hair extensions, and often blonde ones. They are not trying to look more white, because the fake blonde is rarely pale (tanning salons) and often has a fake tan or heavy bronzer. They're trying to look more eye-catching with the huge bottle blonde mane, and the darker skin is presumably something to do with the treatment for female sexual dysfunction that was developed from a tanning drug, see here.

    In 1959, African-American actress Cicely Tyson did something that had never been done before. She broke with Black community norms and wore non-straightened hair on national television. She sported an afro hairdo. No other Black woman had revealed her natural hair on the screen.
     
    Currently, "Nearly six out of 10 [US female] Black consumers wear a wig, weave or extensions,." I'm not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Bundesarchiv_Bild_183-L0911-029,_Berlin,_Erich_Honecker_empf%C3%A4ngt_Angela_Davis.jpg

    Miterse needs to read up on prognathism and noses as they relate to 2D:4D and face shape.

    Angela Davis had a large and very tamed afro. I don’t know why you think it is untamed.

    This is an example of an untamed afro. http://naturallymoi.com/2014/06/cancer-survivor-fired-for-refusing-to-tame-her-afro/

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  23. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Peter Frost
    I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Humans aren't the same now as they were 40,000 years ago or even 10,000 years ago. We know this when we examine DNA from ancient human remains and even when we examine present-day DNA. Natural selection has modified at least 7% of the human genome over the last 40,000 years.

    The word "plausibility" becomes more apt when we talk about evolution over longer time scales, but that isn't the subject of this post.

    As for Fred Reed, I've come to the conclusion that there are personal reasons for his opposition to evolutionary thinking. I could argue the pros and cons of intelligent design with him but I don't see the point. That's not really the issue.

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long.

    I'm talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn't grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Steatopygia is most prevalent in the Khoisan hunter-gatherers of southern Africa. It seems to be a very old characteristic that predates the period of agriculture, female farming and maximum female reproductive autonomy, i.e., the period when sexual selection of African women was relaxed. I suspect it reflects an earlier time when polygyny was more limited in Africans and when there was some selection pressure on African women.

    If we look at Khoisans in recent times, they actually have low polygyny rates and relatively high female-female rivalry for male mates. Among the !Kung, about 75% of all women lose some reproductive time while waiting between partners, and 10–20% lose 5 to 15 years. Nancy Howell concluded that "A relative scarcity of husbands, then, is a regular and expected part of the !Kung marriage system" (Howell, 1979, pp. 247–250).

    Howell, N. (1979). Demography of the Dobe !Kung. New York7 Academic Press.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    Please stay on topic. This isn't a post about "Negroid" brains.

    So if the bigger buttocks did evolve due to sexual selection, why do you suppose this preference for bigger buttocks developed, since it’s not seen in non-African men and thus isn’t universal? One of your points about the sexual selection of light coloration was that women everywhere are lighter than their male counterparts and that there is an ingrained universal preference for lighter women that is the source for the sexual selection of lighter women. If this isn’t the case with bigger buttocks, what do you suppose is the source for the preference for bigger buttocks among African men? Was it just random whim?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonym
    So if the bigger buttocks did evolve due to sexual selection, why do you suppose this preference for bigger buttocks developed, since it’s not seen in non-African men and thus isn’t universal?

    It's definitely seen in non-African men. In white men as well. This preference is not as universal among white men, but it's pretty common.

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/03/traits-of-men-who-prefer-breasts-booty.php

    However, I am still curious as to why there appears to be a uniform preference for ass as pretty much be-all and end-all among blacks, and why the women have evolved to pretty much universally have this feature.
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  24. TWS says:
    @Miterse
    "I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle."

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past with the same reasoning and nearly the same references, making it clear this is about the idea africans and similar populations not being able to grow their hair "long" in all regards, beyond a few inches like Darwin claims. They can definitely grow their hair long, but it's an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be "shorter", that doesn't mean it doesn't compensate (or that they can't grow huge afros that extend many inches beyond their head, and are equal in length to very long straight hair). Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal.

    It's true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. But you didn't just focus on this, you claim their hair type is incapable of growing long and this is true of people people with that hair throughout the world. But if you look at most any other kinky-haired population, you don't see what's found in africans. Afros and similar hair styles are the rule. Papuans, melanesians, various negritos etc. do not wear their hair like africans. And even east africans frequently have afro hairstyles, this being common in the past- ethiopian church art depicts even religious figures and angels with them.

    You could theorize why africans overwhelmingly have this distinct tendency of wearing their hair dramatically unlike what they were born with, but you claiming their type of hair can't grow long and this fixation on bone-straight, below the back hair as being inherently most attractive is bizarre. What it comes down to is you've overlooked something obvious in your attempt to tie in hair into a sort of grand theory of sexual selection, and nobody has corrected you on this.

    You also haven't replied to my remarks about facial structure. You have remarked before that Europeans have a "childlike" face, not only in relation to africans, but even Jews, Roma, and other mediterranean populations, whom you call more "robust", which is a near-baseless claim. Europeans do not have particularly small faces (unless you compare them to asian populations), and it's doubtful they're smaller, or to any significant degree compared to non-northern europeans.

    The other modern person I can think of who's said such things is Erik Holland of "femininebeauty.info", a site you're likely aware of. He's a nordicist who's mainly focused on facial structure, and acts as if northern europeans have such tiny, "derived" faces, and fixates on small faces as being an ideal. I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being "nordic" and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes "nordics" are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He's also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he's written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacist site Majorityrights under the name "J Richards" (which he denies despite the incredible similarities) and became infamous there for his propensity for any conspiracy theory you can name and a penchant for accusing detractors of being jewish infiltrators, along with just how unhinged he could be (look at his arguments from 2005-2006 and his hatred of indians, though this was changed to east asians on his other site.) Curiously, the popularity of slavic women is absent from his writing, or the reputation the British have for being among the least attractive whites.

    I go into this detail because I'm curious if you've taken any cues from him and given how he's among the only other person who's written at such lengths on aesthetics in these circles. But he's not a reliable or sane authority.

    Could you point and shriek “racist” louder? The people in the back row can’t hear you very well.

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    • Replies: @Miterse
    There's really nothing in my comment other than detailing someone who's espoused similar views to Peter that indicates I'm some liberal who likes to scream racist. If I was, I would have done so already.

    Anonymous104:

    I don't know why you're this skeptical. Look at some photos of papuans and melanesians and negritos. They're all stone age people who don't have much difficulty growing huge afros, often times technically "waist length".

    Joe Webb:

    There's nothing distinctively nordic about greco-roman art. There was an article published here not too long ago arguing for a nordic Greece/Rome, and the comments do a good job at eviscerating it. I don't want to segue into a discussion about that; it's irrelevant to this discussion.

    "Funny that skin lighteners are sold world wide to darker folks, even Asians. And blonde hair is universally admired in this world as well as blue eyes. Thus there seems to be a universal esthetic of preference for white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes.

    I apologize , apologize, apologize and prostrate myself before the people of the wrong color, and apparently the resenters on this list, who like to call people insane who simply recognize Reality, racial and esthetic , etc."

    Oh yeah man... there's definitely an intrinsic, universal preference, that all men have, for blonde haired, blue eyed Nordic Aryan Goddesses. That's why you see all of the following, from people long before they had contact with whites, or light-skinned/hair/eyed people, or when they first made contact with them, and even now:

    -Pre-modern artwork worldwide, from classical India to Japan to the Americas, depicting women with blonde hair, blue eyes and ivory skin.
    -Poetic descriptions, beauty ideals, legends etc. all describing ideal women as having white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes etc.
    -Non-whites, upon first contact with whites (and especially women), falling head over heels over this pinnacles of human perfection, having no dislike of any of these features, especially their skin, hair, and eyes, always having a fixation on the lightest ones.
    -Worldwide, in every non-white corner of the globe, women all dying their hair bleach blonde and sporting blue eye contacts.

    Wait- you don't really see much of this. You overwhelmingly see the opposite, in fact. You talk about Greek art clearly looking nordic, so why don't we talk about art from places like ancient Japan, China, India etc. looking nothing like what you think is a universal human ideal? Most asian women don't dye their hair blonde. Few Indian women color their hair anything other than black, their natural color. Much less get colored contacts.

    I don't really care if you apologize to anyone, or care to insult you, but can you please not divert this thread with your bizarre, narcissistic, delusions you call "Reality"?

    Or whatever you're trying to say about uh, child porn or whatever.

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  25. Miterse says:
    @Jm8
    It’s true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. "

    This is not the case. Hair straightening does not predate colonialism(or not much) and requires, heat treating, or chemical treatments(lye, then hair relaxer.), the later of which(relaxer) was invented in the twentieth century. None of these were common in Africa before then(though lye was sometimes used by American slaves in the 19th c.). Longer female hairstyles in pre-colonial Africa were n0t straight. Some were braided, others were like the Ashanti styes I linked (different types of tied afro-sections or chignons). Dreadlocks were sometimes worn by certain people(e.g.: Ashanti fetish priests of both sexes). As for men; some shaved their heads or wore their hair short, some did not depending on tribe, station and occupation.

    Braided and dreaded styles are in a sense straighter. “Straighter” eurasian-type hair wasn’t seen, but hair styles very different from afros and outward-growing styles were most common. They have also been known to use things like heated rocks to straighten hair.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    "They have also been known to use things like heated rocks to straighten hair."

    This was uncommon in traditional African cultures. Lye from ash(which had other uses) and possibly metallic heat straightening implements, since most African cultures had had metallurgy for a while, could have been used but were not.
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  26. @Peter Frost
    I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Humans aren't the same now as they were 40,000 years ago or even 10,000 years ago. We know this when we examine DNA from ancient human remains and even when we examine present-day DNA. Natural selection has modified at least 7% of the human genome over the last 40,000 years.

    The word "plausibility" becomes more apt when we talk about evolution over longer time scales, but that isn't the subject of this post.

    As for Fred Reed, I've come to the conclusion that there are personal reasons for his opposition to evolutionary thinking. I could argue the pros and cons of intelligent design with him but I don't see the point. That's not really the issue.

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long.

    I'm talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn't grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Steatopygia is most prevalent in the Khoisan hunter-gatherers of southern Africa. It seems to be a very old characteristic that predates the period of agriculture, female farming and maximum female reproductive autonomy, i.e., the period when sexual selection of African women was relaxed. I suspect it reflects an earlier time when polygyny was more limited in Africans and when there was some selection pressure on African women.

    If we look at Khoisans in recent times, they actually have low polygyny rates and relatively high female-female rivalry for male mates. Among the !Kung, about 75% of all women lose some reproductive time while waiting between partners, and 10–20% lose 5 to 15 years. Nancy Howell concluded that "A relative scarcity of husbands, then, is a regular and expected part of the !Kung marriage system" (Howell, 1979, pp. 247–250).

    Howell, N. (1979). Demography of the Dobe !Kung. New York7 Academic Press.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    Please stay on topic. This isn't a post about "Negroid" brains.

    I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair, such as dreadlocks or at least long-term braids and twists. Yes, afro-textured air is brittle and once it starts receiving routine combing, curling, styling, perming, etc., it is going to break or shed never reaching its true growth potential. Few black women are going to forgo manipulating their hair.

    The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women’s natural hair or hair pieces. It is best to see the hair loose and both wet and dry. The YouTuber Sera2544 is from Sierra Leone and managed to grow her afro-textured hair waist length but didn’t maintain it after having children.

    As for black American women, the YouTuber Kimmaytube has waist-length afro-textured hair and she has 10 percent European ancestry. Most of the successful black YouTube channels promoting long hair are run by black or mixed-race women who have curly hair not afro-textured. Black celebrities noted for their long hair have curly hair not afro-textured: Aliyah, young Jada Pinkett, Ananda Lewis, the model Wanakee.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    "The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women’s natural hair or hair pieces."

    The first link is titled "natural hair in cote'Ivoire" so hair pieces would probably defeat the purpose/contractict it. I think you can see in many of the pictures I linked that there are no hairpieces(The hair is still fairly loose, being in sections/puffs rather than braids/dreads etc. The color and texture exactly matches the roots).

    But I agree that afro images would be ideal.
    , @Sean

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length
     
    Certainly not most. I have not seen any evidence that is at all common for Black African women to be able to grow hair that long, even if it's straightened. European women clearly grow longer straighter hair than African women, but in general it is accurate to say women the world over tend to try and make their hair look longer and more luxuriant.
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  27. Jm8 says:
    @Triumph104

    I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.
     
    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair, such as dreadlocks or at least long-term braids and twists. Yes, afro-textured air is brittle and once it starts receiving routine combing, curling, styling, perming, etc., it is going to break or shed never reaching its true growth potential. Few black women are going to forgo manipulating their hair.

    The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women's natural hair or hair pieces. It is best to see the hair loose and both wet and dry. The YouTuber Sera2544 is from Sierra Leone and managed to grow her afro-textured hair waist length but didn't maintain it after having children.

    As for black American women, the YouTuber Kimmaytube has waist-length afro-textured hair and she has 10 percent European ancestry. Most of the successful black YouTube channels promoting long hair are run by black or mixed-race women who have curly hair not afro-textured. Black celebrities noted for their long hair have curly hair not afro-textured: Aliyah, young Jada Pinkett, Ananda Lewis, the model Wanakee.

    “The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women’s natural hair or hair pieces.”

    The first link is titled “natural hair in cote’Ivoire” so hair pieces would probably defeat the purpose/contractict it. I think you can see in many of the pictures I linked that there are no hairpieces(The hair is still fairly loose, being in sections/puffs rather than braids/dreads etc. The color and texture exactly matches the roots).

    But I agree that afro images would be ideal.

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  28. JustMe says:
    @Sean
    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    My hair is wavy. When I straighten it with a hot iron, it is about 4 inches longer than in its natural wavy state. I suspect that African women’s hair would apear to be at least double or triple longer if it were straightned. However, regularly straightening hair with a hot iron damages hair and can cause it to break over time, thereby shortening it. So even though African hair may grow to be very long, it won’t look long if it’s not straightened, but if it’s regularly straightened it will break off. In addition, many African women have historically groomed their hair by tightly braiding it, since until the last century regularly straigtening with heat and chemicals wasn’t a realistic option for most women of any race. Very tight braiding conceals the length of the hair and can cause hair to break, though it’s much less destructive than a hot iron. So overall, it’s much more difficult for African hair to easily appear as long as “white” hair simply because of the difference in texture.

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  29. Sean says:
    @Triumph104

    I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.
     
    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair, such as dreadlocks or at least long-term braids and twists. Yes, afro-textured air is brittle and once it starts receiving routine combing, curling, styling, perming, etc., it is going to break or shed never reaching its true growth potential. Few black women are going to forgo manipulating their hair.

    The handful photos that Jm8 produced are unfortunate in that there is no way of telling if that is the women's natural hair or hair pieces. It is best to see the hair loose and both wet and dry. The YouTuber Sera2544 is from Sierra Leone and managed to grow her afro-textured hair waist length but didn't maintain it after having children.

    As for black American women, the YouTuber Kimmaytube has waist-length afro-textured hair and she has 10 percent European ancestry. Most of the successful black YouTube channels promoting long hair are run by black or mixed-race women who have curly hair not afro-textured. Black celebrities noted for their long hair have curly hair not afro-textured: Aliyah, young Jada Pinkett, Ananda Lewis, the model Wanakee.

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length

    Certainly not most. I have not seen any evidence that is at all common for Black African women to be able to grow hair that long, even if it’s straightened. European women clearly grow longer straighter hair than African women, but in general it is accurate to say women the world over tend to try and make their hair look longer and more luxuriant.

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    • Replies: @Triumph104
    You conveniently cut off the qualification that I made. I said the hair cannot be manipulated, dreadlocks for example. If you don't comb afro-textured hair it will maintain its length. Of course if the hair is straightened with heat or chemicals it will be nearly impossible to maintain length.
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  30. joe webb says:

    seriously now, did I miss something here with regard to female vs. male beauty?

    I have adopted the view tentatively that I read somewhere, that taking into account who has the social power, at least around mating and mate selection, that the dominant sex does the primary selection of the opposite sex (quaint term ) based on beauty as the foremost qualifier, with other considerations like money and personality as secondary but nevertheless important.

    The general view that women do the ultimate choosing, is true, except in Male Dominated societies like muzzie and other extremely patriarchal examples. Still, the male has to show up and display his feathers, except in the most extreme cases…like now with the jihadists who assign women to Freedom Fighters, old quaint term now too, to Martyrs who usually only last a few months before they join Allah.

    Nevertheless, the dominant sex still does the basic choosing or showing up. That would be us White Males in the West, and the yellow males in the Orient. We got the social and economic power, for now anyway, and we choose the female…and the female fundamentally particularly over the tens of thousands of years behind us has had little say. So female beauty has been selected by males , white and asian, and male beauty has been selected by African women.

    To repeat, Africa has been very different, with social power at least around the ‘family’ has been in the hands of females. Thus African women have done more Selecting among their men, than men have selected for female beauty.

    I said “more”, not totally of course. This would account for the relative fact that African men are better looking from a White perspective than African women.

    He or She who has the social power does the Sexual Selection…primarily. Therefore the relative better looking or ‘attractiveness’ factor in the sexes is accounted for. White men are not as beautiful as White women, and Asian women are Far more attractive then Asian men.

    This plays out right now where I live in Silicon Valley where Chinese women are very aggressive in their search for white men who are more attractive than Chinese men. Of course, Chinese women have told me that White men will always “treat them better ” than Chinese men.
    ——–
    With current sex-politics in White areas, women have gained a lot of social and economic power.
    I have seen reports (“studies” ) that the more affluent the woman, the more divorce and the more they select their men on the basis of beauty, in other words, for recreational sex.

    Thus, once relieved of economic necessity, women get randier. This happens to few women however and will not make much difference from an evolutionary point of view.

    What will make a difference is woman’s social superiority to men. Men make things and women gossip. They, in the “increasingly global world” of bureaucracy and the chattering mobs of Elites, will make life harder on white men, while often forming alliances with third world men and women.

    What sexual selection process is now in power with regard to beauty or attractiveness? White men will be selected more on the standards of beauty, than every before. Their cognitive abilities will be downgraded, and gossiping women will get randier and randier.

    This seems to be on-going, per for example Murray’s book , Coming Apart, but for the most part in the lower orders. The uppers, about the top 20 per cent of the SES seem to be holding it all together, mostly by working and staying married. Modesty has perhaps gained ground amongst the women of this class.

    For example, the fashion trend of the last decade or so of tights for women, that reveal way too much, has given way to shirts or blouses that are left untucked and therefore cover-up most of the buttocks, and obscure the vulva region which tights outline perfectly. You have to wonder sometimes if women can actually think about what they are doing.

    Joe Webb

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  31. What a lot of going on about sex. Suppose it wasn’t sex at all? Maybe it was something else entirely :D

    http://www.primitivism.com/aquatic-ape.htm

    Like retaining hair on the head providing our ‘ancestral ape’ something for the young to cling to in aquatic environment -

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  32. joe webb says:
    @Miterse
    "I’m talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn’t grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle."

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past with the same reasoning and nearly the same references, making it clear this is about the idea africans and similar populations not being able to grow their hair "long" in all regards, beyond a few inches like Darwin claims. They can definitely grow their hair long, but it's an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be "shorter", that doesn't mean it doesn't compensate (or that they can't grow huge afros that extend many inches beyond their head, and are equal in length to very long straight hair). Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal.

    It's true that africans seem to have an overwhelming propensity to the women straightening their hair and the men wearing it very short or shaved altogether, this predating colonialism and being found throughout their diaspora. But you didn't just focus on this, you claim their hair type is incapable of growing long and this is true of people people with that hair throughout the world. But if you look at most any other kinky-haired population, you don't see what's found in africans. Afros and similar hair styles are the rule. Papuans, melanesians, various negritos etc. do not wear their hair like africans. And even east africans frequently have afro hairstyles, this being common in the past- ethiopian church art depicts even religious figures and angels with them.

    You could theorize why africans overwhelmingly have this distinct tendency of wearing their hair dramatically unlike what they were born with, but you claiming their type of hair can't grow long and this fixation on bone-straight, below the back hair as being inherently most attractive is bizarre. What it comes down to is you've overlooked something obvious in your attempt to tie in hair into a sort of grand theory of sexual selection, and nobody has corrected you on this.

    You also haven't replied to my remarks about facial structure. You have remarked before that Europeans have a "childlike" face, not only in relation to africans, but even Jews, Roma, and other mediterranean populations, whom you call more "robust", which is a near-baseless claim. Europeans do not have particularly small faces (unless you compare them to asian populations), and it's doubtful they're smaller, or to any significant degree compared to non-northern europeans.

    The other modern person I can think of who's said such things is Erik Holland of "femininebeauty.info", a site you're likely aware of. He's a nordicist who's mainly focused on facial structure, and acts as if northern europeans have such tiny, "derived" faces, and fixates on small faces as being an ideal. I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being "nordic" and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes "nordics" are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He's also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he's written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacist site Majorityrights under the name "J Richards" (which he denies despite the incredible similarities) and became infamous there for his propensity for any conspiracy theory you can name and a penchant for accusing detractors of being jewish infiltrators, along with just how unhinged he could be (look at his arguments from 2005-2006 and his hatred of indians, though this was changed to east asians on his other site.) Curiously, the popularity of slavic women is absent from his writing, or the reputation the British have for being among the least attractive whites.

    I go into this detail because I'm curious if you've taken any cues from him and given how he's among the only other person who's written at such lengths on aesthetics in these circles. But he's not a reliable or sane authority.

    funny that ….’I call him a nordicist because he also believes in things like the Greco-Roman elite being “nordic” and even other ancient civilizations, and pretty much believes “nordics” are the supreme of humanity in all regards. He’s also almost certainly mentally ill (likely schizophrenic) given how he’s written heavily on the white nationalist/supremacy….

    very surprising since all the art of Greco-Roman world has a Nordic look to it.

    So who’s crazy here?

    The Latin tribes as well as the Greek tribes that moved south about a thousand to two thousand years BC and displaced as well as blended with folks like the Etruscans…came out of the same area, ar

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  33. joe webb says:

    sorry hit the wrong key…around present day Ukraine and Black Sea, etc. The White cradle of white genome is pretty well agreed upon. Probably the Nordics derived from this cradle, which had included near eastern farmers. The Farmers met the Hunters and we got something like what is called Nordic.

    Funny that skin lighteners are sold world wide to darker folks, even Asians. And blonde hair is universally admired in this world as well as blue eyes. Thus there seems to be a universal esthetic of preference for white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes.

    I apologize , apologize, apologize and prostrate myself before the people of the wrong color, and apparently the resenters on this list, who like to call people insane who simply recognize Reality, racial and esthetic , etc.

    Btw, the European as well as the east asian tendency toward childlike faces as valued, at least in women…what’s that term?…again makes sense. Normal people love children, and when that kind of face (cute ) shows up in an adult woman…the bio-psychological reaction is completely normal and thus those faces are sexually selected for. One could go on and speculate on races that do not have this feature of faces, and wonder if they love their kids in the way that we do, and apparently Asians as well.

    The only smart Black of dozens that I worked with in a Probation Dept for about 18 years, turned out , after having been tokenly promoted to Chief Probation Officer of San Mateo Co, to have collected child porn and was duly fired and convicted of same.
    I wonder what the race preference was for his kid porn, and did it favor blonde and blue eyes kids or Negroes? That was not discussed in the news.
    Joe Webb

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    The only smart Black of dozens that I worked with in a Probation Dept for about 18 years,
     
    Oh, did you tire of spitting atoms the first half of your career?
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  34. joe webb says:

    correction or apology to Mr Frost. I did miss it….in his last words…” It is argued here that sexual selection produced different outcomes in different populations not because standards of beauty differed but because the intensity of sexual selection differed. In the tropical zone, sexual selection acted more on men than on women and was thus too weak to enhance desirable female characteristics.”

    This is a kind of pulled-punch on Mr. Frost’s part, but that’s ok, he wanted it to slip by the ‘population’ that might harm him, and that includes liberal whites. He also did not flesh out the argument, about which sex held the predominance of social power, at least familial and tribal sex-politics. And still does in our Black matriarchy based social groups, aided and abetted by welfare payments to fatherless families, etc, ad nauseum.

    Joe Webb

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    Neoteny is the word....childlike features retained in the adult.
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  35. joe webb says:
    @joe webb
    correction or apology to Mr Frost. I did miss it....in his last words..." It is argued here that sexual selection produced different outcomes in different populations not because standards of beauty differed but because the intensity of sexual selection differed. In the tropical zone, sexual selection acted more on men than on women and was thus too weak to enhance desirable female characteristics."

    This is a kind of pulled-punch on Mr. Frost's part, but that's ok, he wanted it to slip by the 'population' that might harm him, and that includes liberal whites. He also did not flesh out the argument, about which sex held the predominance of social power, at least familial and tribal sex-politics. And still does in our Black matriarchy based social groups, aided and abetted by welfare payments to fatherless families, etc, ad nauseum.

    Joe Webb

    Neoteny is the word….childlike features retained in the adult.

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  36. dcite says:
    @Miterse
    "Of course it grows. All hair grows — that’s what hair does. But it grows very, very slowly. Curly hair grows more slowly than straight, even when the person is white or Asian. The straighter the hair, the quicker it grows. Among whites and Asians, female hair grows longer and faster. There is no difference among black Africans in the genders, as far as how fast the hair grows, according to research. Individuals may claim differently."

    Do you have any evidence for this? African hair grows more slowly, but I've seen no evidence it's directly related to curliness, even within race. Or that african hair grows at identical rates regardless of gender. That's a very new one to me.

    It is well known — among hair dressers for one group — that curly hair grows more slowly. There have been scientific studies posted on the web. When curls are wet or combed straight, they do hang down a lot longer, but they dry, they bounce closer to the head. I doubt it bothered anybody as most [white] people with curly hair did not actually want it to be very long. Asian hair grows faster than Caucasian. This has nothing to do with any sort of aesthetic judgment as I could care less. Shorter hair has been more the style among all races in the 20th century anyway. Even now.

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    • Replies: @Miterse
    Again, actual references would be helpful. I know african hair grows more slowly than European and East Asian hair, but it would be apparent if there was comparison between hair types among whites or something, with a clear gradient of speed from straightest to curliest. I googled this and I come across things relating to the misconception of it growing more slowly tied to simply how it curls, giving the impression of growing slower, similar to the misconception of it being literally shorter.
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  37. Miterse says:
    @TWS
    Could you point and shriek "racist" louder? The people in the back row can't hear you very well.

    There’s really nothing in my comment other than detailing someone who’s espoused similar views to Peter that indicates I’m some liberal who likes to scream racist. If I was, I would have done so already.

    Anonymous104:

    I don’t know why you’re this skeptical. Look at some photos of papuans and melanesians and negritos. They’re all stone age people who don’t have much difficulty growing huge afros, often times technically “waist length”.

    Joe Webb:

    There’s nothing distinctively nordic about greco-roman art. There was an article published here not too long ago arguing for a nordic Greece/Rome, and the comments do a good job at eviscerating it. I don’t want to segue into a discussion about that; it’s irrelevant to this discussion.

    “Funny that skin lighteners are sold world wide to darker folks, even Asians. And blonde hair is universally admired in this world as well as blue eyes. Thus there seems to be a universal esthetic of preference for white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes.

    I apologize , apologize, apologize and prostrate myself before the people of the wrong color, and apparently the resenters on this list, who like to call people insane who simply recognize Reality, racial and esthetic , etc.”

    Oh yeah man… there’s definitely an intrinsic, universal preference, that all men have, for blonde haired, blue eyed Nordic Aryan Goddesses. That’s why you see all of the following, from people long before they had contact with whites, or light-skinned/hair/eyed people, or when they first made contact with them, and even now:

    -Pre-modern artwork worldwide, from classical India to Japan to the Americas, depicting women with blonde hair, blue eyes and ivory skin.
    -Poetic descriptions, beauty ideals, legends etc. all describing ideal women as having white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes etc.
    -Non-whites, upon first contact with whites (and especially women), falling head over heels over this pinnacles of human perfection, having no dislike of any of these features, especially their skin, hair, and eyes, always having a fixation on the lightest ones.
    -Worldwide, in every non-white corner of the globe, women all dying their hair bleach blonde and sporting blue eye contacts.

    Wait- you don’t really see much of this. You overwhelmingly see the opposite, in fact. You talk about Greek art clearly looking nordic, so why don’t we talk about art from places like ancient Japan, China, India etc. looking nothing like what you think is a universal human ideal? Most asian women don’t dye their hair blonde. Few Indian women color their hair anything other than black, their natural color. Much less get colored contacts.

    I don’t really care if you apologize to anyone, or care to insult you, but can you please not divert this thread with your bizarre, narcissistic, delusions you call “Reality”?

    Or whatever you’re trying to say about uh, child porn or whatever.

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    • Replies: @joe webb
    your examples of contradiction of my assertion of world-wide admiration of blonde hair and blue eyes is absurd. Why? cuz in all the examples you present, they come from times before blonde hair and blue eyes were present to be seen by the savages, which I assume is your personal point of identification. Because most of these folks do not attempt to die their hair blonde, though many do, particularly American Black women, does not negate my claim that they admire blondes. The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me....fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes...genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion...it has been about 4 weeks...she's just another loopy girl I guess.

    I just met a blonde 40ish who is very interested. All of this personal experience is to the point of Blondes do have more fun. Do you know who invented the dumb Polish jokes? Maybe you are a jew...jews invented them because Poles somehow learned to hate Jews ....strange but true.

    Gentlemen prefer brunettes, or at least I do, probably cuz brunettes are generally better looking in their faces , but not their bodies, than blondes. Blondes, are taller, and the more Scandinavian type tend, in their faces, to be harder, and more male, just like their bigger and longer bodies, which are delightful. The brunette is typically softer in face, more neotenous and shorter.

    The Scandinavian men have chosen well, over the centuries, and the hunter-gatherer pedigrees show up in their women...more athletic than brunettes.

    What I said about child porn was that the chief probation officer of San Mateo County, Stuart Forrest, who was Black and ugly but pretty smart, was arrested , fired from his post, and sent to jail for possessing child porn. I rhetorically wondered if he preferred little blonde boys with blue eyes, or was it girls, or was it little cute little negroes. I worked with him for several years. I told everybody that he was nuts, but nobody ever listens to me...too narcissistic I guess.

    I guess you had difficulty reading that because of your own mental condition...called Envy and maybe your are not lucky enough to have been born white. White privilege is real...just Nature.

    There was a story in toddy's NYT about ugly people, or what they cutely called, "looks challenged."
    They clucked about it, but did not propose laws to make beautiful people less attractive. I was relieved.

    What of course was overlooked was the evolutionary explanation for dislike or revulsion of ugly people. The evolutionary reason is that most mutations are not pro-fitness, and are probably usually ugly if they show. We have learned to get rid of babies like that, until now of course, in the Great Age of Equality. You may have noticed the way animals closely examine one-another, especially birds. If a feather is out of place, see ya next mating season. maybe.

    They say that personal appearance is about 80% of social acceptance, how you choose to dress, and your posture, about 10%, and what you say, about 10%. Thus, all White Nationalists appear in coat and tie while the slobs dress like juvenile delinquents and are perceived as such. This is just the way it is. I also stress keeping a smile on your face, like TV anchor people. Actually, the buddhists recommend it as well as it spreads a little joy around in social life. Nobody likes to look at a sourpuss, or lefties with anguished looks on their faces, or freaks. That is just the way it is.

    By the way , you can be beautiful and have a sour puss, and nobody is interested. Now That is a nice Evolutionary feature that selects for people with better temperaments. Lousy temperaments are a waste of parental investment time and money. And society suffers from humorless people as well.

    All of the above is about the way people behave from an evolutionary viewpoint. All Humanists are anti-evolutionary and a burden on high functioning society, white or sub-white.

    Joe Webb
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  38. Biff says: • Website

    Since a shaved pussy is the “in” thing right now how long will it take for those pubescent hairs to evolutionary die off?

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  39. How much of hairiness do you think is a response to temperature? You’d think folks living up near the Arctic circle would get furrier, but the Inuit and various Siberian tribes don’t seem particularly hairy. Meanwhile, guys in France can grow bushy, abundant beards if they feel like it.

    I was recently reading a Frenchman’s account of his time in the arctic (“Kabloona,”) and there was a passage in which he described his beard freezing in the -50 degree weather and then breaking off in big chunks, taking bits of his skin off with it. So I suspect that explains why the Eskimo don’t have fluffy beards.

    But perhaps in the in-between lands, where beards don’t just break off from the cold, humans with more hair could keep warmer? Could all of that extra long hair be used like a scarf in the winter? :)

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  40. @Sean
    I'm sorry, but it seems obvious to me that African women do not have the ability to grow hair that is long by European standards. As all women seem to expend a great deal of effort making their hair look even longer and all men seem to prefer long haired women, I would say sexual selection of women in Europe rather than Africa is the most likely explanation for racial hair and other differences, although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.

    “although it seems anomalous that African women have bigger buttocks than European women.”
    In cold weather, you want your body fat spread out all over for insulation. In hot weather, you want your body fat concentrated in one spot to keep you cooler. The butt is as good a spot for fat concentration as any.

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  41. Miterse says:
    @dcite
    It is well known -- among hair dressers for one group -- that curly hair grows more slowly. There have been scientific studies posted on the web. When curls are wet or combed straight, they do hang down a lot longer, but they dry, they bounce closer to the head. I doubt it bothered anybody as most [white] people with curly hair did not actually want it to be very long. Asian hair grows faster than Caucasian. This has nothing to do with any sort of aesthetic judgment as I could care less. Shorter hair has been more the style among all races in the 20th century anyway. Even now.

    Again, actual references would be helpful. I know african hair grows more slowly than European and East Asian hair, but it would be apparent if there was comparison between hair types among whites or something, with a clear gradient of speed from straightest to curliest. I googled this and I come across things relating to the misconception of it growing more slowly tied to simply how it curls, giving the impression of growing slower, similar to the misconception of it being literally shorter.

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  42. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    the idea that african hair grows slower than straight hair is false. Since the hair tends to be coiled, it doesn’t appear long. Go to any person with wooly hair and pull it straighter, you’ll see that its longer than it looks.

    Also aboriginals have straight hair, why is this?

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  43. The theory I heard says that it is so because having the fat tissue mostly in lower body areas-buttocks, thighs makes tolerating high temperatures easier.

    Then why doesn’t steatopygia occur in most tropical peoples? Even within Africa it occurs most often south of the Tropic of Capricorn, i.e., outside the tropics. It is less prevalent in central and west Africa, where the climate is nonetheless warmer.

    Another theory is that it is like the camel’s hump, i.e., it acts as a fat reservoir in desert regions like the Kalahari where food may be intermittent. But why don’t we see it in other desert or semi-desert regions, like Central Asia?

    isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins?

    If we go far enough back, we all share the same ancestors. According to the Out of Africa model, that point of common origin is 60,000 years ago. According to the multiregional model, it may be half a million years ago or earlier.

    If this time of common origin is more recent, does that make us more similar to each other? Not at all. If anything, the opposite is true. The more recent our time of common origin, the more likely our differences are the result of strong selection for functional differences. Conversely, the earlier our time of origin, the more likely our differences are the result of weak selection … or no selection at all.

    I subscribe to the modified Out of Africa model. We are all the descendants of a population expansion that began around 80,000 years ago in Africa and then spread to the other continents beginning 60,000 years ago. There was some intermixture with other human or hominid groups during that expansion, i.e., Neanderthals, Denisovans, and even Homo erectus. The current thinking is that most of the intermixture wasn’t adaptive and was eventually selected out.

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past

    I wrote two blog posts on the subject. This is my first journal article.

    They can definitely grow their hair long, but it’s an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be “shorter”, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t compensate

    Your point — if I may summarize — is that African hair is shorter than European hair, but it is not “short” in an absolute sense. This is a valid point but it doesn’t fundamentally change anything in this discussion. Clearly, there were changes in hair form as humans spread out of Africa and into northern Eurasia. Hair became longer, silkier, and straighter. I focused on the word “long” in the title because (a) I don’t like long titles and (b) the qualities of silkiness and straightness are what make increased length possible.

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair

    Perhaps. I say “perhaps” when I’m not convinced but don’t wish to argue. In any case, what’s the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it?

    The first link is titled “natural hair in cote’Ivoire” so hair pieces would probably defeat the purpose/contractict it. I think you can see in many of the pictures I linked that there are no hairpieces

    I know many women from Cote d’Ivoire and all of them say they invest considerable time and energy in their hair. Show me an Ivoirienne with long, “untreated,” “natural” hair, and I’ll show you une belle menteuse

    I have adopted the view tentatively that I read somewhere, that taking into account who has the social power, at least around mating and mate selection, that the dominant sex does the primary selection of the opposite sex

    Not so much the dominant sex as the sex in short supply. In the White American population, women are now in short supply. So they call the shots.

    The White cradle of white genome is pretty well agreed upon. Probably the Nordics derived from this cradle, which had included near eastern farmers. The Farmers met the Hunters and we got something like what is called Nordic.

    Then why were all of these “Nordic” physical traits — white skin, blond hair, red hair, blue eyes, etc. — already present in northern and eastern Europeans before any Near Eastern farmers arrived on the scene? We see these traits in ancient DNA that dates back to 8,000 years ago at sites in Sweden, Karelia, and Russia.

    What a lot of going on about sex. Suppose it wasn’t sex at all? Maybe it was something else entirely :D Like retaining hair on the head providing our ‘ancestral ape’ something for the young to cling to in aquatic environment

    I actually dealt with that hypothesis in the article, but nobody here seems to have clicked on that link. In short, there is no evidence that humans went through an aquatic phase over the past 60,000 years (Out of Africa) or even the past half a million years (multiregional).

    Since a shaved pussy is the “in” thing right now how long will it take for those pubescent hairs to evolutionary die off?

    Evolution happens only when there are differences in reproductive success for natural selection to act upon. If you want to know what future women will look like, go to where most of the children are being born.

    Again, actual references would be helpful.

    Sigh. There are references in that article. Try this one:

    The structure of African hair is a flattened ellipse, with several small twists and inconsistent cuticle and fiber diameter. It is brittle, tightly coiled, spring-like, and has the slowest growth rate. In comparison, Asian hair is circular in cross-section, straight, thicker, with the highest tensile strength and fastest growth rate while Caucasian hair is oval, straight to wavy with medium diameter and tensile strength. Furthermore, African hair has the least moisture and lipid content, hence the lackluster appearance that requires greasy pomade to make it shine. Consequently, African hair in its natural state poses tenacious grooming challenges. Most individuals with the African hair type are dissatisfied with their hair in its natural state. Considerable labor and cost is expended to make African hair more manageable.

    Ajose, F.O.A. (2012). Diseases that turn African hair silky. International Journal of Dermatology, 51 (supp. S1), 12-16.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/FRANCES_AJOSE/publication/249991820_Diseases_that_turn_African_Hair_Silky/links/00b49525e6cbeb489c000000.pdf

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    ""Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair""

    Perhaps. I say “perhaps” when I’m not convinced but don’t wish to argue. In any case, what’s the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it?"

    I would guess "manipulate" there refers to (sometimes rough/harsh) styling techniques like braiding or heat straightening esp. when prolonged, and not mere casual touching. But I could be wrong.
    , @Anonymous

    Then why doesn’t steatopygia occur in most tropical peoples? Even within Africa it occurs most often south of the Tropic of Capricorn, i.e., outside the tropics. It is less prevalent in central and west Africa, where the climate is nonetheless warmer.

    Another theory is that it is like the camel’s hump, i.e., it acts as a fat reservoir in desert regions like the Kalahari where food may be intermittent. But why don’t we see it in other desert or semi-desert regions, like Central Asia?
     
    Why aren't Eskimos furry, when all animals in the Arctic are furry? It seems that organisms don't necessarily adapt the same way everywhere.
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  44. Jm8 says:
    @Peter Frost
    The theory I heard says that it is so because having the fat tissue mostly in lower body areas-buttocks, thighs makes tolerating high temperatures easier.

    Then why doesn't steatopygia occur in most tropical peoples? Even within Africa it occurs most often south of the Tropic of Capricorn, i.e., outside the tropics. It is less prevalent in central and west Africa, where the climate is nonetheless warmer.

    Another theory is that it is like the camel's hump, i.e., it acts as a fat reservoir in desert regions like the Kalahari where food may be intermittent. But why don't we see it in other desert or semi-desert regions, like Central Asia?

    isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins?

    If we go far enough back, we all share the same ancestors. According to the Out of Africa model, that point of common origin is 60,000 years ago. According to the multiregional model, it may be half a million years ago or earlier.

    If this time of common origin is more recent, does that make us more similar to each other? Not at all. If anything, the opposite is true. The more recent our time of common origin, the more likely our differences are the result of strong selection for functional differences. Conversely, the earlier our time of origin, the more likely our differences are the result of weak selection ... or no selection at all.

    I subscribe to the modified Out of Africa model. We are all the descendants of a population expansion that began around 80,000 years ago in Africa and then spread to the other continents beginning 60,000 years ago. There was some intermixture with other human or hominid groups during that expansion, i.e., Neanderthals, Denisovans, and even Homo erectus. The current thinking is that most of the intermixture wasn't adaptive and was eventually selected out.

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past

    I wrote two blog posts on the subject. This is my first journal article.

    They can definitely grow their hair long, but it’s an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be “shorter”, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t compensate

    Your point -- if I may summarize -- is that African hair is shorter than European hair, but it is not "short" in an absolute sense. This is a valid point but it doesn't fundamentally change anything in this discussion. Clearly, there were changes in hair form as humans spread out of Africa and into northern Eurasia. Hair became longer, silkier, and straighter. I focused on the word "long" in the title because (a) I don't like long titles and (b) the qualities of silkiness and straightness are what make increased length possible.

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair

    Perhaps. I say "perhaps" when I'm not convinced but don't wish to argue. In any case, what's the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it?

    The first link is titled “natural hair in cote’Ivoire” so hair pieces would probably defeat the purpose/contractict it. I think you can see in many of the pictures I linked that there are no hairpieces

    I know many women from Cote d'Ivoire and all of them say they invest considerable time and energy in their hair. Show me an Ivoirienne with long, "untreated," "natural" hair, and I'll show you une belle menteuse

    I have adopted the view tentatively that I read somewhere, that taking into account who has the social power, at least around mating and mate selection, that the dominant sex does the primary selection of the opposite sex

    Not so much the dominant sex as the sex in short supply. In the White American population, women are now in short supply. So they call the shots.

    The White cradle of white genome is pretty well agreed upon. Probably the Nordics derived from this cradle, which had included near eastern farmers. The Farmers met the Hunters and we got something like what is called Nordic.

    Then why were all of these "Nordic" physical traits --- white skin, blond hair, red hair, blue eyes, etc. -- already present in northern and eastern Europeans before any Near Eastern farmers arrived on the scene? We see these traits in ancient DNA that dates back to 8,000 years ago at sites in Sweden, Karelia, and Russia.

    What a lot of going on about sex. Suppose it wasn’t sex at all? Maybe it was something else entirely :D Like retaining hair on the head providing our ‘ancestral ape’ something for the young to cling to in aquatic environment

    I actually dealt with that hypothesis in the article, but nobody here seems to have clicked on that link. In short, there is no evidence that humans went through an aquatic phase over the past 60,000 years (Out of Africa) or even the past half a million years (multiregional).

    Since a shaved pussy is the “in” thing right now how long will it take for those pubescent hairs to evolutionary die off?

    Evolution happens only when there are differences in reproductive success for natural selection to act upon. If you want to know what future women will look like, go to where most of the children are being born.

    Again, actual references would be helpful.

    Sigh. There are references in that article. Try this one:

    The structure of African hair is a flattened ellipse, with several small twists and inconsistent cuticle and fiber diameter. It is brittle, tightly coiled, spring-like, and has the slowest growth rate. In comparison, Asian hair is circular in cross-section, straight, thicker, with the highest tensile strength and fastest growth rate while Caucasian hair is oval, straight to wavy with medium diameter and tensile strength. Furthermore, African hair has the least moisture and lipid content, hence the lackluster appearance that requires greasy pomade to make it shine. Consequently, African hair in its natural state poses tenacious grooming challenges. Most individuals with the African hair type are dissatisfied with their hair in its natural state. Considerable labor and cost is expended to make African hair more manageable.
     
    Ajose, F.O.A. (2012). Diseases that turn African hair silky. International Journal of Dermatology, 51 (supp. S1), 12-16.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/FRANCES_AJOSE/publication/249991820_Diseases_that_turn_African_Hair_Silky/links/00b49525e6cbeb489c000000.pdf

    “”Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair””

    Perhaps. I say “perhaps” when I’m not convinced but don’t wish to argue. In any case, what’s the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it?”

    I would guess “manipulate” there refers to (sometimes rough/harsh) styling techniques like braiding or heat straightening esp. when prolonged, and not mere casual touching. But I could be wrong.

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  45. Miterse_ says:

    “Your point — if I may summarize — is that African hair is shorter than European hair, but it is not “short” in an absolute sense. This is a valid point but it doesn’t fundamentally change anything in this discussion. Clearly, there were changes in hair form as humans spread out of Africa and into northern Eurasia. Hair became longer, silkier, and straighter. I focused on the word “long” in the title because (a) I don’t like long titles and (b) the qualities of silkiness and straightness are what make increased length possible.”

    It does fundamentally change things, even going beyond your initial/previous claims their hair is shorter in an absolute sense, illustrated by the Darwin quote. You keep implying straight, downward hair is inherently most attractive and has been a focal point of sexual selection, but hair like this has hardly been always ideal, women have always styled their hair in ways that decrease absolute length but compensate in other ways, and this is what we see with kinky hair. You point to frequent african tendencies to straighten their hair before colonialism, but this isn’t the case in populations with the same kind of hair nearly everywhere else, even in east africa, which calls into question the idea the way africans often treat their hair reflects something intrinsic.

    Also, long hair on men can be seen as masculine, so there’s that to consider too.

    Besides, it’s difficult to say if people in Africa have always had the hair we see. Many melanesians have straight-wavy hair, and australian aborigines are predominantly straight-wavy. People that are largely descended from the first waves of AMH humans out of africa, live in similar climates, sometimes have similar mating systems etc.

    “Perhaps. I say “perhaps” when I’m not convinced but don’t wish to argue. In any case, what’s the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it? ”

    He was talking about manipulating it when styling it and encouraging it to grow, but he’s wrong for the most part either way.

    “Sigh. There are references in that article. Try this one:”

    I didn’t deny at all that african hair grows more slowly, I’m talking about hair growth speed and curliness of hair in an absolute sense, not comparing the average of two races, but a gradient that would be clear within race. See what I said about curliness in whites.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    You like this word "absolute" and seem to be dragging it in to argue against any generalisation . I am sure if someone said women are shorter than men you'd say "not in an absolute sense". Whether or not the average African woman can have absolutely 'short' hair, she can and does have hair that is short and not straight by European or Asian standards. There is a difference and it is genetic. You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/whose-hair-are-you-buying/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28894757
    The hair is held together with labels which supposedly tell us their country of origin. Here, apparently, one can buy hair from Peru, India and Brazil.
    There are no Chinese customers here though - every buyer seems to be from Africa. Nigerians, Ghanaians, Congolese, South Africans, Angolans and Ugandans scour the impressive hall for the best-priced hair extensions available. They tell me they can triple their money when they get home.
    Towards the end of a busy day I ask shop owner Lily how her business is doing. "It's ok, we used to sell to Europe and America, but now nearly 100% of my clients are in Africa," she says.
     
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  46. Jm8 says:

    “I know many women from Cote d’Ivoire and all of them say they invest considerable time and energy in their hair. Show me an Ivoirienne with long, “untreated,” “natural” hair, and I’ll show you une belle menteuse”

    Long natural hair may not be the norm/currently popular in the Ivory coast. This might explain your observation.

    The Ivorian link I posted seems to be associated with a “natural hair movement” or revival in that country. This article also apparently discusses the same group of people, since it has a few of the same pictures included my earlier link .

    http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/11/africa/ivory-coast-natural-hair-movement/

    from article re: hair:

    “Many locals concede that the knowledge has been lost, no longer passed down from mother-to-daughter.”

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  47. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Peter Frost
    The theory I heard says that it is so because having the fat tissue mostly in lower body areas-buttocks, thighs makes tolerating high temperatures easier.

    Then why doesn't steatopygia occur in most tropical peoples? Even within Africa it occurs most often south of the Tropic of Capricorn, i.e., outside the tropics. It is less prevalent in central and west Africa, where the climate is nonetheless warmer.

    Another theory is that it is like the camel's hump, i.e., it acts as a fat reservoir in desert regions like the Kalahari where food may be intermittent. But why don't we see it in other desert or semi-desert regions, like Central Asia?

    isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins?

    If we go far enough back, we all share the same ancestors. According to the Out of Africa model, that point of common origin is 60,000 years ago. According to the multiregional model, it may be half a million years ago or earlier.

    If this time of common origin is more recent, does that make us more similar to each other? Not at all. If anything, the opposite is true. The more recent our time of common origin, the more likely our differences are the result of strong selection for functional differences. Conversely, the earlier our time of origin, the more likely our differences are the result of weak selection ... or no selection at all.

    I subscribe to the modified Out of Africa model. We are all the descendants of a population expansion that began around 80,000 years ago in Africa and then spread to the other continents beginning 60,000 years ago. There was some intermixture with other human or hominid groups during that expansion, i.e., Neanderthals, Denisovans, and even Homo erectus. The current thinking is that most of the intermixture wasn't adaptive and was eventually selected out.

    You have written on this subject multiple times in the past

    I wrote two blog posts on the subject. This is my first journal article.

    They can definitely grow their hair long, but it’s an outward fashion. And while the length might typically be “shorter”, that doesn’t mean it doesn’t compensate

    Your point -- if I may summarize -- is that African hair is shorter than European hair, but it is not "short" in an absolute sense. This is a valid point but it doesn't fundamentally change anything in this discussion. Clearly, there were changes in hair form as humans spread out of Africa and into northern Eurasia. Hair became longer, silkier, and straighter. I focused on the word "long" in the title because (a) I don't like long titles and (b) the qualities of silkiness and straightness are what make increased length possible.

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length and a few waist-length but the trick is to not manipulate the hair

    Perhaps. I say "perhaps" when I'm not convinced but don't wish to argue. In any case, what's the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it?

    The first link is titled “natural hair in cote’Ivoire” so hair pieces would probably defeat the purpose/contractict it. I think you can see in many of the pictures I linked that there are no hairpieces

    I know many women from Cote d'Ivoire and all of them say they invest considerable time and energy in their hair. Show me an Ivoirienne with long, "untreated," "natural" hair, and I'll show you une belle menteuse

    I have adopted the view tentatively that I read somewhere, that taking into account who has the social power, at least around mating and mate selection, that the dominant sex does the primary selection of the opposite sex

    Not so much the dominant sex as the sex in short supply. In the White American population, women are now in short supply. So they call the shots.

    The White cradle of white genome is pretty well agreed upon. Probably the Nordics derived from this cradle, which had included near eastern farmers. The Farmers met the Hunters and we got something like what is called Nordic.

    Then why were all of these "Nordic" physical traits --- white skin, blond hair, red hair, blue eyes, etc. -- already present in northern and eastern Europeans before any Near Eastern farmers arrived on the scene? We see these traits in ancient DNA that dates back to 8,000 years ago at sites in Sweden, Karelia, and Russia.

    What a lot of going on about sex. Suppose it wasn’t sex at all? Maybe it was something else entirely :D Like retaining hair on the head providing our ‘ancestral ape’ something for the young to cling to in aquatic environment

    I actually dealt with that hypothesis in the article, but nobody here seems to have clicked on that link. In short, there is no evidence that humans went through an aquatic phase over the past 60,000 years (Out of Africa) or even the past half a million years (multiregional).

    Since a shaved pussy is the “in” thing right now how long will it take for those pubescent hairs to evolutionary die off?

    Evolution happens only when there are differences in reproductive success for natural selection to act upon. If you want to know what future women will look like, go to where most of the children are being born.

    Again, actual references would be helpful.

    Sigh. There are references in that article. Try this one:

    The structure of African hair is a flattened ellipse, with several small twists and inconsistent cuticle and fiber diameter. It is brittle, tightly coiled, spring-like, and has the slowest growth rate. In comparison, Asian hair is circular in cross-section, straight, thicker, with the highest tensile strength and fastest growth rate while Caucasian hair is oval, straight to wavy with medium diameter and tensile strength. Furthermore, African hair has the least moisture and lipid content, hence the lackluster appearance that requires greasy pomade to make it shine. Consequently, African hair in its natural state poses tenacious grooming challenges. Most individuals with the African hair type are dissatisfied with their hair in its natural state. Considerable labor and cost is expended to make African hair more manageable.
     
    Ajose, F.O.A. (2012). Diseases that turn African hair silky. International Journal of Dermatology, 51 (supp. S1), 12-16.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/FRANCES_AJOSE/publication/249991820_Diseases_that_turn_African_Hair_Silky/links/00b49525e6cbeb489c000000.pdf

    Then why doesn’t steatopygia occur in most tropical peoples? Even within Africa it occurs most often south of the Tropic of Capricorn, i.e., outside the tropics. It is less prevalent in central and west Africa, where the climate is nonetheless warmer.

    Another theory is that it is like the camel’s hump, i.e., it acts as a fat reservoir in desert regions like the Kalahari where food may be intermittent. But why don’t we see it in other desert or semi-desert regions, like Central Asia?

    Why aren’t Eskimos furry, when all animals in the Arctic are furry? It seems that organisms don’t necessarily adapt the same way everywhere.

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  48. Sean says:
    @Miterse_
    "Your point — if I may summarize — is that African hair is shorter than European hair, but it is not “short” in an absolute sense. This is a valid point but it doesn’t fundamentally change anything in this discussion. Clearly, there were changes in hair form as humans spread out of Africa and into northern Eurasia. Hair became longer, silkier, and straighter. I focused on the word “long” in the title because (a) I don’t like long titles and (b) the qualities of silkiness and straightness are what make increased length possible."

    It does fundamentally change things, even going beyond your initial/previous claims their hair is shorter in an absolute sense, illustrated by the Darwin quote. You keep implying straight, downward hair is inherently most attractive and has been a focal point of sexual selection, but hair like this has hardly been always ideal, women have always styled their hair in ways that decrease absolute length but compensate in other ways, and this is what we see with kinky hair. You point to frequent african tendencies to straighten their hair before colonialism, but this isn't the case in populations with the same kind of hair nearly everywhere else, even in east africa, which calls into question the idea the way africans often treat their hair reflects something intrinsic.

    Also, long hair on men can be seen as masculine, so there's that to consider too.

    Besides, it's difficult to say if people in Africa have always had the hair we see. Many melanesians have straight-wavy hair, and australian aborigines are predominantly straight-wavy. People that are largely descended from the first waves of AMH humans out of africa, live in similar climates, sometimes have similar mating systems etc.

    "Perhaps. I say “perhaps” when I’m not convinced but don’t wish to argue. In any case, what’s the point in a woman having long hair if neither she nor her boyfriend can play with it? "

    He was talking about manipulating it when styling it and encouraging it to grow, but he's wrong for the most part either way.

    "Sigh. There are references in that article. Try this one:"

    I didn't deny at all that african hair grows more slowly, I'm talking about hair growth speed and curliness of hair in an absolute sense, not comparing the average of two races, but a gradient that would be clear within race. See what I said about curliness in whites.

    You like this word “absolute” and seem to be dragging it in to argue against any generalisation . I am sure if someone said women are shorter than men you’d say “not in an absolute sense”. Whether or not the average African woman can have absolutely ‘short’ hair, she can and does have hair that is short and not straight by European or Asian standards. There is a difference and it is genetic. You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/whose-hair-are-you-buying/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28894757
    The hair is held together with labels which supposedly tell us their country of origin. Here, apparently, one can buy hair from Peru, India and Brazil.
    There are no Chinese customers here though – every buyer seems to be from Africa. Nigerians, Ghanaians, Congolese, South Africans, Angolans and Ugandans scour the impressive hall for the best-priced hair extensions available. They tell me they can triple their money when they get home.
    Towards the end of a busy day I ask shop owner Lily how her business is doing. “It’s ok, we used to sell to Europe and America, but now nearly 100% of my clients are in Africa,” she says.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    Part of the appeal of wearing straight hairpieces is the appearance(to those with non-straight hair) of having naturally straight hair, to those that want the look. This is because artificially straightened hair can often look stiff and unnatural (That and artificial straightening is often damaging to hair). It does not mean those that wear such hairpieces are genetically incapable of growing long hair. But is may suggest that they are incapable of growing hair that looks like the hairpieces they seek(that is naturally straight).
    , @Miterse_
    It's more than a little obvious when I say absolute, I am not talking about literal "averages", like the height of men vs. women. Look back at my other comments and what I've been repeatedly saying about density. Even then it's not accurate to say it's shorter, it mainly grows in a different direction, outward as opposed to downward. I don't know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it's completely natural state, it doesn't have the same exact literal "length." You'll only see absolute length like that when the hair is completely bone straight, nothing else and flowing down from the scalp.

    "You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. "

    Let me just repost something else I previously wrote:

    "Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal."

    Please also explain to me why men and women elsewhere outside of typical black africans with the same hair do not have this fixation on wearing it completely unlike what they were born with. This fixation on bone-straight asian-like hair you have as the universal ideal is not true.

    "The explanation proposed in the post seems much more likely that any of the alternative hypotheses."

    In other words, "My preferred authority said it, so it must be true, even if it's based largely on him reiterating a popular misconception and ignoring how virtually all other people with hair like africans approach it."

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  49. Jm8 says:
    @Sean
    You like this word "absolute" and seem to be dragging it in to argue against any generalisation . I am sure if someone said women are shorter than men you'd say "not in an absolute sense". Whether or not the average African woman can have absolutely 'short' hair, she can and does have hair that is short and not straight by European or Asian standards. There is a difference and it is genetic. You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/whose-hair-are-you-buying/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28894757
    The hair is held together with labels which supposedly tell us their country of origin. Here, apparently, one can buy hair from Peru, India and Brazil.
    There are no Chinese customers here though - every buyer seems to be from Africa. Nigerians, Ghanaians, Congolese, South Africans, Angolans and Ugandans scour the impressive hall for the best-priced hair extensions available. They tell me they can triple their money when they get home.
    Towards the end of a busy day I ask shop owner Lily how her business is doing. "It's ok, we used to sell to Europe and America, but now nearly 100% of my clients are in Africa," she says.
     

    Part of the appeal of wearing straight hairpieces is the appearance(to those with non-straight hair) of having naturally straight hair, to those that want the look. This is because artificially straightened hair can often look stiff and unnatural (That and artificial straightening is often damaging to hair). It does not mean those that wear such hairpieces are genetically incapable of growing long hair. But is may suggest that they are incapable of growing hair that looks like the hairpieces they seek(that is naturally straight).

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    The popularity of the straight haired look in some black populations might be compared to the popularity of westernizing eyelid surgery in parts of East Asia.
    , @Sean
    A lot of the cheap extensions are made of goat hair. Women overwhelmingly want the long straight hair look, and many European women wear hair extensions for extra length so it is not just about African hair texture or appearance when straightened. Longer hair is better hair, even for European women. African women have more need of enhancement of their natural hair length even when straightened. The explanation proposed in the post seems much more likely that any of the alternative hypotheses.
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  50. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8
    Part of the appeal of wearing straight hairpieces is the appearance(to those with non-straight hair) of having naturally straight hair, to those that want the look. This is because artificially straightened hair can often look stiff and unnatural (That and artificial straightening is often damaging to hair). It does not mean those that wear such hairpieces are genetically incapable of growing long hair. But is may suggest that they are incapable of growing hair that looks like the hairpieces they seek(that is naturally straight).

    The popularity of the straight haired look in some black populations might be compared to the popularity of westernizing eyelid surgery in parts of East Asia.

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  51. Sean says:
    @Jm8
    Part of the appeal of wearing straight hairpieces is the appearance(to those with non-straight hair) of having naturally straight hair, to those that want the look. This is because artificially straightened hair can often look stiff and unnatural (That and artificial straightening is often damaging to hair). It does not mean those that wear such hairpieces are genetically incapable of growing long hair. But is may suggest that they are incapable of growing hair that looks like the hairpieces they seek(that is naturally straight).

    A lot of the cheap extensions are made of goat hair. Women overwhelmingly want the long straight hair look, and many European women wear hair extensions for extra length so it is not just about African hair texture or appearance when straightened. Longer hair is better hair, even for European women. African women have more need of enhancement of their natural hair length even when straightened. The explanation proposed in the post seems much more likely that any of the alternative hypotheses.

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  52. Miterse_ says:
    @Sean
    You like this word "absolute" and seem to be dragging it in to argue against any generalisation . I am sure if someone said women are shorter than men you'd say "not in an absolute sense". Whether or not the average African woman can have absolutely 'short' hair, she can and does have hair that is short and not straight by European or Asian standards. There is a difference and it is genetic. You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. http://new.spectator.co.uk/2015/04/whose-hair-are-you-buying/

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-28894757
    The hair is held together with labels which supposedly tell us their country of origin. Here, apparently, one can buy hair from Peru, India and Brazil.
    There are no Chinese customers here though - every buyer seems to be from Africa. Nigerians, Ghanaians, Congolese, South Africans, Angolans and Ugandans scour the impressive hall for the best-priced hair extensions available. They tell me they can triple their money when they get home.
    Towards the end of a busy day I ask shop owner Lily how her business is doing. "It's ok, we used to sell to Europe and America, but now nearly 100% of my clients are in Africa," she says.
     

    It’s more than a little obvious when I say absolute, I am not talking about literal “averages”, like the height of men vs. women. Look back at my other comments and what I’ve been repeatedly saying about density. Even then it’s not accurate to say it’s shorter, it mainly grows in a different direction, outward as opposed to downward. I don’t know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it’s completely natural state, it doesn’t have the same exact literal “length.” You’ll only see absolute length like that when the hair is completely bone straight, nothing else and flowing down from the scalp.

    “You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. ”

    Let me just repost something else I previously wrote:

    “Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal.”

    Please also explain to me why men and women elsewhere outside of typical black africans with the same hair do not have this fixation on wearing it completely unlike what they were born with. This fixation on bone-straight asian-like hair you have as the universal ideal is not true.

    “The explanation proposed in the post seems much more likely that any of the alternative hypotheses.”

    In other words, “My preferred authority said it, so it must be true, even if it’s based largely on him reiterating a popular misconception and ignoring how virtually all other people with hair like africans approach it.”

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    • Replies: @Sean

    I don’t know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it’s completely natural state,
     
    You're at it again. Africans are necessarily capable of growing their hair to a length that is a maximum. An individual or average African maximum, even straightened is shorter than the equivalent in Asians South Americans and South Asians, which is why people in those countries can make money growing their hair and selling it to make hair extensions, while Africans can't.

    African women rarely wear Afro type hair extensions. Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia, and that is still true.


    http://realnewsmagazine.net/women/craze-for-foreign-human-hair/ Craze for Foreign Human Hair Nigerian women fall of expensive foreign human hair extensions which most regard as status symbol. Manufacturers of the products exploit the fad to blump fake hair extensions in the country.A WOMAN’S hair is her beauty. To most women, this is not an understatement. The hair plays a crucial role in enhancing their looks and for this reason they do not take the care of their hair for granted. It gets a great deal of attention. Giving their hair good attention also means that they spend a lot of money to look good. Among today’s women, there is an ongoing rave to outdo the other through the hairstyle they wear. Many of them spend huge sums of money trying to win this undeclared and unending competition. For most women, the popular human hair extensions in vogue which include Brazilian, Indian, Peruvian, Malaysian, Bohemian Arabian, Russian, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Chinese, European, Virgin, Argentine, and Cambodian hairs among others are the way to go.
     
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  53. Possible non-sexual factors for the evolution of long-straight hair:

    Easier to comb and thus easier to keep free of dirt and parasites (I know of an Australian hippie women with dreads who was bitten by a funnel web spider nesting in her hair).

    People with straight hair on head also have straight, thinner body hair which is harder for ticks and other parasites to get a purchase on. People with straight hair also tend to have less overall body hair and straight body hair is easier to shave without causing ingrown hairs

    Can be neatly tied back when working outdoors or moving in undergrowth – this reduces the chance of ticks and spiders getting caught in it – in contrast an afro would attract a lot of unwanted lodgers

    Worn long it protects the back and ears from excessive sun exposure.

    Hence people with straight body hair let to get skin cancer or die from infectious diseases carried by ticks, fleas etc. Also people with fewer parasites (and fewer diseases and skin problems) also likely to be more sought after as breeding partners (admittedly a quasi-sexual factor). Note also that long straight hair seems to be more prevelant in environments where it isn’t possible to take a bath on a regular basis (eg, Siberia and Scandinavia in winter).

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    • Replies: @Miterse_
    There are melanesian populations where hair texture ranges from straight-wavy all the way to kinky, and others where kinky hair is uniform. Australian aborigines are generally wavy, even those that live in the outback, but then you'll see Khoisan in the Kalahari with "peppercorn" hair, the curliest possible hair type. Then andaman islanders seem to have the same hair type (and one of the few non-african populations where the men and women both wear very short/shaved hair.) Tropical amerinds and southeast asians/pacific islanders all have uniformly straight black hair. It's really hard to say with these things, and popular explanations for natural selection often don't take into account generally smaller, more isolated populations that nonetheless have totally different traits, despite being in the similar environments.

    Joe Webb: There's nothing absurd about it at all. If blonde hair/blue eyes etc. are inherent human ideals, why do we see a paucity of these things being expressed in any fashion, whether in art, dress, poetry etc. in isolation of contact with whites or other peoples with these traits? It's not hard to fathom hair or eye colors other than black and dark brown, and just about every population in the world has experienced albinos. Even putting aside the fact their hair, skin and eyes often have an abnormal quality, it shouldn't be hard to fathom these in a more appealing state, but there's virtually no populations that have ever found albinos or their traits attractive, or ever extrapolated aesthetics from them. Especially with non-black hair, there are next to no uniformly black haired populations that have ever dyed their hair any other color. Hair dying is almost exclusively found in populations with more than one hair color, or when there's been extended contact with a population with a different hair color. I can think of a few african tribes that dyed their hair red, but that's it.

    And when they've been exposed to white people for the first time, it's hardly been the case they fall head over heels for their looks, or want to emulate them. You can look up accounts of african, native american etc. tribes and more. And even now, as I said, admiration of white/"nordic" features is not even remotely universal.

    There's almost nothing else worth replying to in your rambling, semi-literate essay. Nice to see how you refer to all non-whites as "the savages" and accuse me of being non-white or jewish (I'm neither). Or that you think there's anything I envy about you. And that you admit you're 74, so what I'm really dealing with is some malcontent, neurotic old man.

    Peter: I am not just talking about bobbed hair. I am referring to all hairstyles that entail reducing absolute length/downward visibility, like braids, buns etc. etc. Hair such as this and other "shorter" hairstyles have been popular throughout history. Baroque hairstyles and even hairstyles among east asian geishas, court maidens etc. have entailed hair that is heavily styled in some way that is not clearly straight and downward, and have often resembled afros in how they grow upward and outward (baroque hair was often heavily curled).

    You say that about European women, but I think it's pretty clear from your writings you think features found in European women (particularly skin color) are among the most attractive to men on an intrinsic level, but that's another matter. You in this post and others on hair clearly allude to straight hair being the most attractive. There are many issues with this, even looking at africans, and again, there's even the issue as to whether africans/the first AMH out of africa had kinky hair. Again, other african-like populations descended largely from the first AMH OOA do not have kinky hair.

    I am also still curious about your claims with Europeans having a more "childlike face."

    Europeans also do not have the greatest diversity of hair texture- middle easterners more frequently have curly hair, and various melanesians seem to have hair textures that cover close to the entire range possible in humans. Southern europeans also more frequently have curly hair, so northern europeans aren't *that* diverse in hair texture.

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  54. joe webb says:
    @Miterse
    There's really nothing in my comment other than detailing someone who's espoused similar views to Peter that indicates I'm some liberal who likes to scream racist. If I was, I would have done so already.

    Anonymous104:

    I don't know why you're this skeptical. Look at some photos of papuans and melanesians and negritos. They're all stone age people who don't have much difficulty growing huge afros, often times technically "waist length".

    Joe Webb:

    There's nothing distinctively nordic about greco-roman art. There was an article published here not too long ago arguing for a nordic Greece/Rome, and the comments do a good job at eviscerating it. I don't want to segue into a discussion about that; it's irrelevant to this discussion.

    "Funny that skin lighteners are sold world wide to darker folks, even Asians. And blonde hair is universally admired in this world as well as blue eyes. Thus there seems to be a universal esthetic of preference for white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes.

    I apologize , apologize, apologize and prostrate myself before the people of the wrong color, and apparently the resenters on this list, who like to call people insane who simply recognize Reality, racial and esthetic , etc."

    Oh yeah man... there's definitely an intrinsic, universal preference, that all men have, for blonde haired, blue eyed Nordic Aryan Goddesses. That's why you see all of the following, from people long before they had contact with whites, or light-skinned/hair/eyed people, or when they first made contact with them, and even now:

    -Pre-modern artwork worldwide, from classical India to Japan to the Americas, depicting women with blonde hair, blue eyes and ivory skin.
    -Poetic descriptions, beauty ideals, legends etc. all describing ideal women as having white skin, blonde hair, blue eyes etc.
    -Non-whites, upon first contact with whites (and especially women), falling head over heels over this pinnacles of human perfection, having no dislike of any of these features, especially their skin, hair, and eyes, always having a fixation on the lightest ones.
    -Worldwide, in every non-white corner of the globe, women all dying their hair bleach blonde and sporting blue eye contacts.

    Wait- you don't really see much of this. You overwhelmingly see the opposite, in fact. You talk about Greek art clearly looking nordic, so why don't we talk about art from places like ancient Japan, China, India etc. looking nothing like what you think is a universal human ideal? Most asian women don't dye their hair blonde. Few Indian women color their hair anything other than black, their natural color. Much less get colored contacts.

    I don't really care if you apologize to anyone, or care to insult you, but can you please not divert this thread with your bizarre, narcissistic, delusions you call "Reality"?

    Or whatever you're trying to say about uh, child porn or whatever.

    your examples of contradiction of my assertion of world-wide admiration of blonde hair and blue eyes is absurd. Why? cuz in all the examples you present, they come from times before blonde hair and blue eyes were present to be seen by the savages, which I assume is your personal point of identification. Because most of these folks do not attempt to die their hair blonde, though many do, particularly American Black women, does not negate my claim that they admire blondes. The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion…it has been about 4 weeks…she’s just another loopy girl I guess.

    I just met a blonde 40ish who is very interested. All of this personal experience is to the point of Blondes do have more fun. Do you know who invented the dumb Polish jokes? Maybe you are a jew…jews invented them because Poles somehow learned to hate Jews ….strange but true.

    Gentlemen prefer brunettes, or at least I do, probably cuz brunettes are generally better looking in their faces , but not their bodies, than blondes. Blondes, are taller, and the more Scandinavian type tend, in their faces, to be harder, and more male, just like their bigger and longer bodies, which are delightful. The brunette is typically softer in face, more neotenous and shorter.

    The Scandinavian men have chosen well, over the centuries, and the hunter-gatherer pedigrees show up in their women…more athletic than brunettes.

    What I said about child porn was that the chief probation officer of San Mateo County, Stuart Forrest, who was Black and ugly but pretty smart, was arrested , fired from his post, and sent to jail for possessing child porn. I rhetorically wondered if he preferred little blonde boys with blue eyes, or was it girls, or was it little cute little negroes. I worked with him for several years. I told everybody that he was nuts, but nobody ever listens to me…too narcissistic I guess.

    I guess you had difficulty reading that because of your own mental condition…called Envy and maybe your are not lucky enough to have been born white. White privilege is real…just Nature.

    There was a story in toddy’s NYT about ugly people, or what they cutely called, “looks challenged.”
    They clucked about it, but did not propose laws to make beautiful people less attractive. I was relieved.

    What of course was overlooked was the evolutionary explanation for dislike or revulsion of ugly people. The evolutionary reason is that most mutations are not pro-fitness, and are probably usually ugly if they show. We have learned to get rid of babies like that, until now of course, in the Great Age of Equality. You may have noticed the way animals closely examine one-another, especially birds. If a feather is out of place, see ya next mating season. maybe.

    They say that personal appearance is about 80% of social acceptance, how you choose to dress, and your posture, about 10%, and what you say, about 10%. Thus, all White Nationalists appear in coat and tie while the slobs dress like juvenile delinquents and are perceived as such. This is just the way it is. I also stress keeping a smile on your face, like TV anchor people. Actually, the buddhists recommend it as well as it spreads a little joy around in social life. Nobody likes to look at a sourpuss, or lefties with anguished looks on their faces, or freaks. That is just the way it is.

    By the way , you can be beautiful and have a sour puss, and nobody is interested. Now That is a nice Evolutionary feature that selects for people with better temperaments. Lousy temperaments are a waste of parental investment time and money. And society suffers from humorless people as well.

    All of the above is about the way people behave from an evolutionary viewpoint. All Humanists are anti-evolutionary and a burden on high functioning society, white or sub-white.

    Joe Webb

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    • Replies: @Truth

    Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion…it has been about 4 weeks…she’s just another loopy girl I guess.

    but nobody ever listens to me…too narcissistic I guess.

     
    LMAO! Dudes I love this fucking site.
    , @Anonymous

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)
     
    I'm sure you're a very handsome man, but are you sure that these "gals" are checking you out? Aren't you in your 60s? Do gals really check out older men like this?
    , @Anonymous

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out
     
    So you're 74 years old, and "gals" and "very young" girls "in their 20s" are you checking you out constantly? I'm sure you're a very handsome man, but gals generally don't check out septuagenarians, no matter how handsome they are.
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  55. If this time of common origin is more recent, does that make us more similar to each other? Not at all. If anything, the opposite is true. The more recent our time of common origin, the more likely our differences are the result of strong selection for functional differences. Conversely, the earlier our time of origin, the more likely our differences are the result of weak selection … or no selection at all.

    This baffles me. In general, greater distance generally means greater difference. We’re less similar to other species (chimpanzees) than to other human races. And we’re less different from chimps than we are from bacteria or even canines. I can’t immediately think of an exception. So your claim is probably more restricted.

    Could you elaborate on the logic: “The more recent our time of common origin, the more likely our differences are the result of strong selection for functional differences.” Why is this the case?

    Also, it would seem biologicaly rare that the offspring of two different species (as is claimed by a separarate-race theory of the negro advanced by one commenter) would have to be separate species themselves. I don’t know if this intuition is veridical.

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  56. Anonym says:
    @Anonymous
    So if the bigger buttocks did evolve due to sexual selection, why do you suppose this preference for bigger buttocks developed, since it's not seen in non-African men and thus isn't universal? One of your points about the sexual selection of light coloration was that women everywhere are lighter than their male counterparts and that there is an ingrained universal preference for lighter women that is the source for the sexual selection of lighter women. If this isn't the case with bigger buttocks, what do you suppose is the source for the preference for bigger buttocks among African men? Was it just random whim?

    So if the bigger buttocks did evolve due to sexual selection, why do you suppose this preference for bigger buttocks developed, since it’s not seen in non-African men and thus isn’t universal?

    It’s definitely seen in non-African men. In white men as well. This preference is not as universal among white men, but it’s pretty common.

    http://www.gnxp.com/blog/2008/03/traits-of-men-who-prefer-breasts-booty.php

    However, I am still curious as to why there appears to be a uniform preference for ass as pretty much be-all and end-all among blacks, and why the women have evolved to pretty much universally have this feature.

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  57. Truth says:
    @Rich
    I don't know, I'm no expert in this field, but isn't it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins? Up until now, it's true, that the oldest human ancestor was found in Africa, but does that rule out unknown ancestors in the North? Although apparently out of favor, for political reasons, weren't Java Man or Peking Man thought to be the oldest direct ancestors of modern man? It seems to me that we are only just on the threshold of this field and have a long way to go before we can make definitive statements about the various differences between the races.

    I don’t know, I’m no expert in this field, but isn’t it at least plausible that Caucasians and Negroids do not have a common ancestor, but evolved from separate origins?

    Do not have a common ancestor, but procreate willingly and 100% as efficiently as intra-species couples?

    Richard, now, come on…

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  58. Truth says:
    @joe webb
    sorry hit the wrong key...around present day Ukraine and Black Sea, etc. The White cradle of white genome is pretty well agreed upon. Probably the Nordics derived from this cradle, which had included near eastern farmers. The Farmers met the Hunters and we got something like what is called Nordic.

    Funny that skin lighteners are sold world wide to darker folks, even Asians. And blonde hair is universally admired in this world as well as blue eyes. Thus there seems to be a universal esthetic of preference for white skin and blonde hair and blue eyes.

    I apologize , apologize, apologize and prostrate myself before the people of the wrong color, and apparently the resenters on this list, who like to call people insane who simply recognize Reality, racial and esthetic , etc.

    Btw, the European as well as the east asian tendency toward childlike faces as valued, at least in women...what's that term?...again makes sense. Normal people love children, and when that kind of face (cute ) shows up in an adult woman...the bio-psychological reaction is completely normal and thus those faces are sexually selected for. One could go on and speculate on races that do not have this feature of faces, and wonder if they love their kids in the way that we do, and apparently Asians as well.

    The only smart Black of dozens that I worked with in a Probation Dept for about 18 years, turned out , after having been tokenly promoted to Chief Probation Officer of San Mateo Co, to have collected child porn and was duly fired and convicted of same.
    I wonder what the race preference was for his kid porn, and did it favor blonde and blue eyes kids or Negroes? That was not discussed in the news.
    Joe Webb

    The only smart Black of dozens that I worked with in a Probation Dept for about 18 years,

    Oh, did you tire of spitting atoms the first half of your career?

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    • Replies: @joe webb
    Truth, as in Orwell,

    I take the hint that I was just a dummy in my professional occupation. Such savvy.

    Truth is I got an MA in Polit Sci from Berkeley in 1965, from the best rated Poly Sci dept in the country. Problem was I was a leftie of sorts, and did not fit the cold-war liberal zeitgeist regnant in the dept.

    I left to stumble around , go to jail over Vietnam, civil disobedience, and generally get myself good and "alienated" as the then current term went. While spared, given the times, SAT testing, I scored at 98 percentile in a test at about 18. Thus I was probably not cut-put to split atoms, but I am cut-out to recognize reptiles when I encounter them.

    You are a reptile.

    The temperamental factor in all of life is very important. In my case I am a fighter, from boxing, to preparedness to deal with street situations, 200 pounds and fit, a swimmer.

    Probably, with my blonde hair and blue eyes and berzerker tendencies, I can handle the twerps and at least many blacks who might mess with me. Obviously, lots of albino reptiles too.

    Joe Webb
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  59. You keep implying straight, downward hair is inherently most attractive and has been a focal point of sexual selection, but hair like this has hardly been always ideal, women have always styled their hair in ways that decrease absolute length but compensate in other ways, and this is what we see with kinky hair.

    Historically, the general preference has been for longer over shorter female hair. “Bobbed” hair is culturally recent, beginning in the 1920s as part of a broader trend toward androgyny in women’s fashion.

    Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not saying that European women are “inherently” more beautiful than other women. I’m saying that the physical appearance of Europeans, particularly those of northern and eastern Europe, seems to be a product of a selection pressure that acted primarily on women, most likely sexual selection. This selection pressure was guided by what European men considered to be beautiful some ten to twenty-five thousand years ago.

    Were their notions of female beauty “inherent”? Not entirely. Notions of female beauty are partly innate, partly learned, and partly a mix of both.

    As a footnote, I should add that there is a novelty effect in sexual attraction, and this has helped to drive short-term fashions like bobbed hair. A new look is initially seen as exciting because it is novel, and this novelty wears off as it becomes more widespread. This is probably why Europeans have a diverse palette of hair and eye colors. It may also be why their hair form is likewise diverse, being not only straight but also curly. When a particular variant of color or form became too common, the selection pressure shifted to a less common color or form.

    Long natural hair may not be the norm/currently popular in the Ivory coast.

    Long female hair is very popular in Cote d’Ivoire, as it is throughout West Africa. You seem to be chastising me for not mentioning something that is actually discussed at length in my article.

    I’m not saying that Africans are extraterrestrials with very different notions of female beauty. Actually, their notions of female beauty are very similar to those of the rest of us.

    As for hair being naturally long in Cote d’Ivoire, well — perhaps — you have a point. You can be sure I will give this point the thought and attention it deserves.

    This baffles me. In general, greater distance generally means greater difference. We’re less similar to other species (chimpanzees) than to other human races. And we’re less different from chimps than we are from bacteria or even canines.

    Evolutionary change does correlate with the passage of time, but the correlation is very weak. Most life forms remain unchanged for long periods of time. The coelacanth is a good example, but I can cite many others. Evolutionary change tends to happen in short bursts with long periods of stasis.

    If we take human evolution, far more genetic change has occurred over the past 10,000 years than over the previous 100,000. Our evolution has been more like a logarithmic curve than a straight line.

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    • Replies: @Jm8
    "As for hair being naturally long in Cote d’Ivoire, well — perhaps — you have a point. You can be sure I will give this point the thought and attention it deserves."

    I really don't think there is anything special about Ivorians in that regard. Hairstyles using hair of significant length) similar to those traditional in Cote D'Ivoire (twisted, braided, tied, sectioned ext.) existed all over West and central Africa (though probably more in some tribes than others according to varying tradition). Also many Rastafarians grow very long hair in the form of dreadlocks. Their ancestry(in the Caribbean) is mostly a mix of various West and Central African tribes.
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  60. Jm8 says:

    “”Long natural hair may not be the norm/currently popular in the Ivory coast.”

    Long female hair is very popular in Cote d’Ivoire, as it is throughout West Africa. You seem to be chastising me for not mentioning something that is actually discussed at length in my article.”

    I was not.
    I was referring to longer kinky hairstyles(such as those I described in earlier posts or linked to .) worn without straightening treatments(which are now apparently common in Cote D’Ivoire), which existed/in some traditional African cultures in earlier times, and have now become less common in some places.

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    Edit:

    I was not.
    I was referring to longer kinky("natural" as opposed to straight/straightened)) hairstyles(such as those I described in earlier posts or linked to .) worn without straightening.....
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  61. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8
    ""Long natural hair may not be the norm/currently popular in the Ivory coast."

    Long female hair is very popular in Cote d’Ivoire, as it is throughout West Africa. You seem to be chastising me for not mentioning something that is actually discussed at length in my article."

    I was not.
    I was referring to longer kinky hairstyles(such as those I described in earlier posts or linked to .) worn without straightening treatments(which are now apparently common in Cote D'Ivoire), which existed/in some traditional African cultures in earlier times, and have now become less common in some places.

    Edit:

    I was not.
    I was referring to longer kinky(“natural” as opposed to straight/straightened)) hairstyles(such as those I described in earlier posts or linked to .) worn without straightening…..

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  62. @Sean

    Most afro-textured hair can reach mid-back length
     
    Certainly not most. I have not seen any evidence that is at all common for Black African women to be able to grow hair that long, even if it's straightened. European women clearly grow longer straighter hair than African women, but in general it is accurate to say women the world over tend to try and make their hair look longer and more luxuriant.

    You conveniently cut off the qualification that I made. I said the hair cannot be manipulated, dreadlocks for example. If you don’t comb afro-textured hair it will maintain its length. Of course if the hair is straightened with heat or chemicals it will be nearly impossible to maintain length.

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  63. Jm8 says:
    @Peter Frost
    You keep implying straight, downward hair is inherently most attractive and has been a focal point of sexual selection, but hair like this has hardly been always ideal, women have always styled their hair in ways that decrease absolute length but compensate in other ways, and this is what we see with kinky hair.

    Historically, the general preference has been for longer over shorter female hair. "Bobbed" hair is culturally recent, beginning in the 1920s as part of a broader trend toward androgyny in women's fashion.

    Please don't get me wrong. I'm not saying that European women are "inherently" more beautiful than other women. I'm saying that the physical appearance of Europeans, particularly those of northern and eastern Europe, seems to be a product of a selection pressure that acted primarily on women, most likely sexual selection. This selection pressure was guided by what European men considered to be beautiful some ten to twenty-five thousand years ago.

    Were their notions of female beauty "inherent"? Not entirely. Notions of female beauty are partly innate, partly learned, and partly a mix of both.

    As a footnote, I should add that there is a novelty effect in sexual attraction, and this has helped to drive short-term fashions like bobbed hair. A new look is initially seen as exciting because it is novel, and this novelty wears off as it becomes more widespread. This is probably why Europeans have a diverse palette of hair and eye colors. It may also be why their hair form is likewise diverse, being not only straight but also curly. When a particular variant of color or form became too common, the selection pressure shifted to a less common color or form.

    Long natural hair may not be the norm/currently popular in the Ivory coast.

    Long female hair is very popular in Cote d'Ivoire, as it is throughout West Africa. You seem to be chastising me for not mentioning something that is actually discussed at length in my article.

    I'm not saying that Africans are extraterrestrials with very different notions of female beauty. Actually, their notions of female beauty are very similar to those of the rest of us.

    As for hair being naturally long in Cote d'Ivoire, well -- perhaps -- you have a point. You can be sure I will give this point the thought and attention it deserves.

    This baffles me. In general, greater distance generally means greater difference. We’re less similar to other species (chimpanzees) than to other human races. And we’re less different from chimps than we are from bacteria or even canines.

    Evolutionary change does correlate with the passage of time, but the correlation is very weak. Most life forms remain unchanged for long periods of time. The coelacanth is a good example, but I can cite many others. Evolutionary change tends to happen in short bursts with long periods of stasis.

    If we take human evolution, far more genetic change has occurred over the past 10,000 years than over the previous 100,000. Our evolution has been more like a logarithmic curve than a straight line.

    “As for hair being naturally long in Cote d’Ivoire, well — perhaps — you have a point. You can be sure I will give this point the thought and attention it deserves.”

    I really don’t think there is anything special about Ivorians in that regard. Hairstyles using hair of significant length) similar to those traditional in Cote D’Ivoire (twisted, braided, tied, sectioned ext.) existed all over West and central Africa (though probably more in some tribes than others according to varying tradition). Also many Rastafarians grow very long hair in the form of dreadlocks. Their ancestry(in the Caribbean) is mostly a mix of various West and Central African tribes.

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  64. Sean says:
    @Miterse_
    It's more than a little obvious when I say absolute, I am not talking about literal "averages", like the height of men vs. women. Look back at my other comments and what I've been repeatedly saying about density. Even then it's not accurate to say it's shorter, it mainly grows in a different direction, outward as opposed to downward. I don't know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it's completely natural state, it doesn't have the same exact literal "length." You'll only see absolute length like that when the hair is completely bone straight, nothing else and flowing down from the scalp.

    "You can say long straight hair is not considered better as much as you want, but the fact is that women overwhelmingly disagree, always have done and spend a lot of money trying to get the long straight hair look. "

    Let me just repost something else I previously wrote:

    "Wavy hair, curls, perms, braids, buns etc. all entail a loss of length or visiblity of long hair strands, but those have all been tremendously popular, and they all compensate with density or different visibility. Even the illustration you chose has wavy strands, not bone-straight hair like you fixate on as being ideal."

    Please also explain to me why men and women elsewhere outside of typical black africans with the same hair do not have this fixation on wearing it completely unlike what they were born with. This fixation on bone-straight asian-like hair you have as the universal ideal is not true.

    "The explanation proposed in the post seems much more likely that any of the alternative hypotheses."

    In other words, "My preferred authority said it, so it must be true, even if it's based largely on him reiterating a popular misconception and ignoring how virtually all other people with hair like africans approach it."

    I don’t know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it’s completely natural state,

    You’re at it again. Africans are necessarily capable of growing their hair to a length that is a maximum. An individual or average African maximum, even straightened is shorter than the equivalent in Asians South Americans and South Asians, which is why people in those countries can make money growing their hair and selling it to make hair extensions, while Africans can’t.

    African women rarely wear Afro type hair extensions. Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia, and that is still true.

    http://realnewsmagazine.net/women/craze-for-foreign-human-hair/ Craze for Foreign Human Hair Nigerian women fall of expensive foreign human hair extensions which most regard as status symbol. Manufacturers of the products exploit the fad to blump fake hair extensions in the country.A WOMAN’S hair is her beauty. To most women, this is not an understatement. The hair plays a crucial role in enhancing their looks and for this reason they do not take the care of their hair for granted. It gets a great deal of attention. Giving their hair good attention also means that they spend a lot of money to look good. Among today’s women, there is an ongoing rave to outdo the other through the hairstyle they wear. Many of them spend huge sums of money trying to win this undeclared and unending competition. For most women, the popular human hair extensions in vogue which include Brazilian, Indian, Peruvian, Malaysian, Bohemian Arabian, Russian, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Chinese, European, Virgin, Argentine, and Cambodian hairs among others are the way to go.

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    "Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia"

    This is not the case "historically" but mostly within the last hundred years or so (much less in some areas). The Great power and influence of the West globally ( at its height roughly at the same period) has tended to increased the status and cache of all things western in non western regions (hence the example of westernizing facial surgery in Asia).
    , @Miterse_
    No, you just homed in on one admission of mine that seemingly confirmed one of your strange fixations (and you're still at trying to defend what Peter said just because it's from him.) I'll admit one thing though- I am not entirely sure what Peter has been arguing about the nature of african hair (aside from arguing it is objectively less attractive than straighter hair). Here's the two angles I've gotten from him:

    -Kinky hair can grow "long", but less sexual selection of women has impeded it from growing out more than a few inches like a mop, on average, on top of this hair type being less appealing and reflecting lower levels of sexual selection.
    -Kinky hair by it's nature is incapable of growing longer, and this on top of it's texture reflects lowered sexual selection of women.

    The second is the impression I've been getting. If he hasn't been arguing that, I apologize, but I think his entire argument is based on him reiterating a popular misconception, and not considering non-africans with the same hair or whether humans in africa have always had kinky hair.

    Going back to what I said about the genetics of hair growth, I can't say if I've ever encountered a girl/woman who's ever given the impression or said they're incapable of growing their hair to a certain length. How easily you can grow out your hair depends on genetics that varies on an individual basis, even for people with the same exact hair texture/color. However, whether you can you grow your hair as far as possible seems to depend overwhelmingly on how you care for it, I don't know how often it "stops" for people.

    The point is that there is little clear evidence africans can't grow their hair out to great "length" on average or really have any difficulty or that it generally stops at some point- although it does grow in an outward/upward fashion, there is no evidence that it generally "stops" and they require extensions of any kind, even when it's straightened, much less that it can't grow out more than a few inches. It's pretty doubtful since nearly all other people with their hair have no trouble growing big afros and such, on top of melanesians/papuans often being highly polgyamous- like africans, but somehow have no difficulty growing abundant hair.

    The other point of contention we keep having is that african hair is relatively "shorter" because it curls, but there isn't clear evidence, if you compare them to other populations (including east africans) with the same hair, it is objectively less attractive, nevermind all I keep saying about visible, downward straight hair not being universally seen as ideal. Or that it's even accurate to actually call their hair shorter.

    For what it's worth, this is the woman with the longest hair on record: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2282203/I-black-Rapunzel-Its-baby-sweetheart-crown-Florida-woman-addicted-growing-hair-mane-21FEET-long.html

    She's from Trinidad & Tobago, so she likely has indian ancestry, but still.

    You are wrong that "eurasian" hair has been sought after throughout African history or that such hair has universally been preferred. I won't deny that traditional african hairstyles are usually different from afros and often straightened in some way, but that's likely some peculiar neurosis typical black africans have for whatever reason, since again, few other people with hair like them behave how they do.

    Since I keep mentioning them, maybe photos will suffice- here's various papuans and melansians:
    http://dikie-plemena.ru/uploads/posts/2013-01/1357352183_2.jpg
    http://www.bougainville24.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/100-Kul-Festival.jpg
    http://bougtours.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Picture4.jpg
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9kz_iEC7dzY/TYI7fvyGXzI/AAAAAAAAAGI/JTf--B4KLGI/s1600/blonde-melanesians.jpg
    https://hucipher.files.wordpress.com/2013/07/2309501172_15b001c584_o-melanesians.jpg

    Here's various negritos:
    http://exhibits.haverford.edu/seeingisbelieving/files/2012/10/HC11-27059_adj_fl.jpg
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KTJKOF7Twzw/hqdefault.jpg
    http://www.documentingalta.com/uploads/1/7/3/4/17340475/8380189.jpg?404
    http://40.media.tumblr.com/fd5792bb3f2eda30042798d8b2a128e6/tumblr_myc32ur4TE1t0u74to4_500.jpg
    https://abagond.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/lgaetawomen.jpg?w=500

    And finally, here's various pieces of Ethiopian church art: https://artmundus.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/ethiopia_art01.jpg
    http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53e31095e4b04d937f3244b6/t/55223b80e4b0e4ad5009521c/1428306818051/
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Flickr_-_don_macauley_-_St._George.jpg

    For what it's also worth, the men and women of the Ethiopian royal family sported afros:
    http://www.abbaymedia.com/Image_Bank/Ethiopian_Royalty-1920s-1930.jpg
    http://40.media.tumblr.com/608dfc2dee558b41a2395f7007702cf4/tumblr_mijxnnt9Ax1r6jme9o1_500.jpg
    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/kYcjoJMBAAk/hqdefault.jpg

    And again, we don't know exactly what the hair of people AMH humans who first left Africa was, much less whether africans have always had the same hair.

    I almost missed your most recent comment, but Nicki Minaj does not have fine facial features, or an appealing nose. I'd say it's too sharp, and uneven if you look at in profile: http://i.huffpost.com/gen/2043330/images/o-NICKI-MINAJ-facebook.jpg

    We can also talk about the impressions of various non-europeans to white facial features- old racial caricatures of whites (which still crop up) from east asians have them resembling jewish caricatures. They Japanese never considered the Ainu attractive either, despite the Japanese being the most "caucasoid" east asians, sharing ancestry with the Ainu-like Jomon and some Ainu ancestry as well.

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  65. Jm8 says:

    Edit:
    “(twisted, braided, tied, sectioned etc.) existed….”

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  66. Jm8 says:

    “As for hair being naturally long in Cote d’Ivoire, well — perhaps — you have a point. You can be sure I will give this point the thought and attention it deserves.”
    I really don’t think there is anything special about Ivorians in that regard. Hairstyles using hair of significant length) similar to those traditional in Cote D’Ivoire (twisted, braided, tied, sectioned etc.) existed all over West and central Africa (though probably more in some tribes than others according to varying tradition). Also many Rastafarians grow very long hair in the form of dreadlocks. Their ancestry(in the Caribbean) is mostly a mix of various West and Central African tribes.

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  67. Truth says:
    @joe webb
    your examples of contradiction of my assertion of world-wide admiration of blonde hair and blue eyes is absurd. Why? cuz in all the examples you present, they come from times before blonde hair and blue eyes were present to be seen by the savages, which I assume is your personal point of identification. Because most of these folks do not attempt to die their hair blonde, though many do, particularly American Black women, does not negate my claim that they admire blondes. The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me....fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes...genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion...it has been about 4 weeks...she's just another loopy girl I guess.

    I just met a blonde 40ish who is very interested. All of this personal experience is to the point of Blondes do have more fun. Do you know who invented the dumb Polish jokes? Maybe you are a jew...jews invented them because Poles somehow learned to hate Jews ....strange but true.

    Gentlemen prefer brunettes, or at least I do, probably cuz brunettes are generally better looking in their faces , but not their bodies, than blondes. Blondes, are taller, and the more Scandinavian type tend, in their faces, to be harder, and more male, just like their bigger and longer bodies, which are delightful. The brunette is typically softer in face, more neotenous and shorter.

    The Scandinavian men have chosen well, over the centuries, and the hunter-gatherer pedigrees show up in their women...more athletic than brunettes.

    What I said about child porn was that the chief probation officer of San Mateo County, Stuart Forrest, who was Black and ugly but pretty smart, was arrested , fired from his post, and sent to jail for possessing child porn. I rhetorically wondered if he preferred little blonde boys with blue eyes, or was it girls, or was it little cute little negroes. I worked with him for several years. I told everybody that he was nuts, but nobody ever listens to me...too narcissistic I guess.

    I guess you had difficulty reading that because of your own mental condition...called Envy and maybe your are not lucky enough to have been born white. White privilege is real...just Nature.

    There was a story in toddy's NYT about ugly people, or what they cutely called, "looks challenged."
    They clucked about it, but did not propose laws to make beautiful people less attractive. I was relieved.

    What of course was overlooked was the evolutionary explanation for dislike or revulsion of ugly people. The evolutionary reason is that most mutations are not pro-fitness, and are probably usually ugly if they show. We have learned to get rid of babies like that, until now of course, in the Great Age of Equality. You may have noticed the way animals closely examine one-another, especially birds. If a feather is out of place, see ya next mating season. maybe.

    They say that personal appearance is about 80% of social acceptance, how you choose to dress, and your posture, about 10%, and what you say, about 10%. Thus, all White Nationalists appear in coat and tie while the slobs dress like juvenile delinquents and are perceived as such. This is just the way it is. I also stress keeping a smile on your face, like TV anchor people. Actually, the buddhists recommend it as well as it spreads a little joy around in social life. Nobody likes to look at a sourpuss, or lefties with anguished looks on their faces, or freaks. That is just the way it is.

    By the way , you can be beautiful and have a sour puss, and nobody is interested. Now That is a nice Evolutionary feature that selects for people with better temperaments. Lousy temperaments are a waste of parental investment time and money. And society suffers from humorless people as well.

    All of the above is about the way people behave from an evolutionary viewpoint. All Humanists are anti-evolutionary and a burden on high functioning society, white or sub-white.

    Joe Webb

    Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion…it has been about 4 weeks…she’s just another loopy girl I guess.

    but nobody ever listens to me…too narcissistic I guess.

    LMAO! Dudes I love this fucking site.

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  68. joe webb says:
    @Truth

    The only smart Black of dozens that I worked with in a Probation Dept for about 18 years,
     
    Oh, did you tire of spitting atoms the first half of your career?

    Truth, as in Orwell,

    I take the hint that I was just a dummy in my professional occupation. Such savvy.

    Truth is I got an MA in Polit Sci from Berkeley in 1965, from the best rated Poly Sci dept in the country. Problem was I was a leftie of sorts, and did not fit the cold-war liberal zeitgeist regnant in the dept.

    I left to stumble around , go to jail over Vietnam, civil disobedience, and generally get myself good and “alienated” as the then current term went. While spared, given the times, SAT testing, I scored at 98 percentile in a test at about 18. Thus I was probably not cut-put to split atoms, but I am cut-out to recognize reptiles when I encounter them.

    You are a reptile.

    The temperamental factor in all of life is very important. In my case I am a fighter, from boxing, to preparedness to deal with street situations, 200 pounds and fit, a swimmer.

    Probably, with my blonde hair and blue eyes and berzerker tendencies, I can handle the twerps and at least many blacks who might mess with me. Obviously, lots of albino reptiles too.

    Joe Webb

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  69. joe webb says:

    what has happened to the Osmosis guy, back as Mytsery?

    I notice on the new Girardi article that all? comments appear to accept that the false-flaggers are hopelessly out to lunch, etc.

    Joe Webb

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    • Replies: @singh.jatt
    You're a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone's ass. Stfu & sit down,

    The narcissistic self centered attitude of the older generations is why there are so many kikes muzzies & kike lite christians running around.

    Ok, we like blonde women so we'll fuck them then what?
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  70. Jm8 says:
    @Sean

    I don’t know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it’s completely natural state,
     
    You're at it again. Africans are necessarily capable of growing their hair to a length that is a maximum. An individual or average African maximum, even straightened is shorter than the equivalent in Asians South Americans and South Asians, which is why people in those countries can make money growing their hair and selling it to make hair extensions, while Africans can't.

    African women rarely wear Afro type hair extensions. Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia, and that is still true.


    http://realnewsmagazine.net/women/craze-for-foreign-human-hair/ Craze for Foreign Human Hair Nigerian women fall of expensive foreign human hair extensions which most regard as status symbol. Manufacturers of the products exploit the fad to blump fake hair extensions in the country.A WOMAN’S hair is her beauty. To most women, this is not an understatement. The hair plays a crucial role in enhancing their looks and for this reason they do not take the care of their hair for granted. It gets a great deal of attention. Giving their hair good attention also means that they spend a lot of money to look good. Among today’s women, there is an ongoing rave to outdo the other through the hairstyle they wear. Many of them spend huge sums of money trying to win this undeclared and unending competition. For most women, the popular human hair extensions in vogue which include Brazilian, Indian, Peruvian, Malaysian, Bohemian Arabian, Russian, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Chinese, European, Virgin, Argentine, and Cambodian hairs among others are the way to go.
     

    “Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia”

    This is not the case “historically” but mostly within the last hundred years or so (much less in some areas). The Great power and influence of the West globally ( at its height roughly at the same period) has tended to increased the status and cache of all things western in non western regions (hence the example of westernizing facial surgery in Asia).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    https://twitter.com/akumufiona/status/652862178043801600


    If long straight hair in women was a modern western fashion it would explain why Nicki Minaj affects it, but why did she boost her buttocks? Rather than one set of fans for her wig and another for her her rump, is it not more likely that she is appealing to everyone by looking as attractive as possible with fine facial features (especially nose) long straight hair, large breasts and big rear end. Not everything Nicki Minaj has altered about herself to have a more physically attractive appearance made her less black looking, because her huge backside is certainly not Asian or European looking, but still there is a definite bias. In her business she has to look as good as she can to as many people as she can, like Beyonce (another bewigged woman with a boosted bottom). No European cultural dominance has skewed men's sexual appetites and perceptions, it is just brain algorithms that are most affected by a certain look and women admire and want that look, which the right hair is a big part of. Apart from Michael Jackson types who are not very interested in women, black men don't want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head. A couple of studies have found that black men are rated more physically attractive.

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  71. Miterse_ says:
    @unpc downunder
    Possible non-sexual factors for the evolution of long-straight hair:

    Easier to comb and thus easier to keep free of dirt and parasites (I know of an Australian hippie women with dreads who was bitten by a funnel web spider nesting in her hair).

    People with straight hair on head also have straight, thinner body hair which is harder for ticks and other parasites to get a purchase on. People with straight hair also tend to have less overall body hair and straight body hair is easier to shave without causing ingrown hairs

    Can be neatly tied back when working outdoors or moving in undergrowth - this reduces the chance of ticks and spiders getting caught in it - in contrast an afro would attract a lot of unwanted lodgers

    Worn long it protects the back and ears from excessive sun exposure.

    Hence people with straight body hair let to get skin cancer or die from infectious diseases carried by ticks, fleas etc. Also people with fewer parasites (and fewer diseases and skin problems) also likely to be more sought after as breeding partners (admittedly a quasi-sexual factor). Note also that long straight hair seems to be more prevelant in environments where it isn't possible to take a bath on a regular basis (eg, Siberia and Scandinavia in winter).

    There are melanesian populations where hair texture ranges from straight-wavy all the way to kinky, and others where kinky hair is uniform. Australian aborigines are generally wavy, even those that live in the outback, but then you’ll see Khoisan in the Kalahari with “peppercorn” hair, the curliest possible hair type. Then andaman islanders seem to have the same hair type (and one of the few non-african populations where the men and women both wear very short/shaved hair.) Tropical amerinds and southeast asians/pacific islanders all have uniformly straight black hair. It’s really hard to say with these things, and popular explanations for natural selection often don’t take into account generally smaller, more isolated populations that nonetheless have totally different traits, despite being in the similar environments.

    Joe Webb: There’s nothing absurd about it at all. If blonde hair/blue eyes etc. are inherent human ideals, why do we see a paucity of these things being expressed in any fashion, whether in art, dress, poetry etc. in isolation of contact with whites or other peoples with these traits? It’s not hard to fathom hair or eye colors other than black and dark brown, and just about every population in the world has experienced albinos. Even putting aside the fact their hair, skin and eyes often have an abnormal quality, it shouldn’t be hard to fathom these in a more appealing state, but there’s virtually no populations that have ever found albinos or their traits attractive, or ever extrapolated aesthetics from them. Especially with non-black hair, there are next to no uniformly black haired populations that have ever dyed their hair any other color. Hair dying is almost exclusively found in populations with more than one hair color, or when there’s been extended contact with a population with a different hair color. I can think of a few african tribes that dyed their hair red, but that’s it.

    And when they’ve been exposed to white people for the first time, it’s hardly been the case they fall head over heels for their looks, or want to emulate them. You can look up accounts of african, native american etc. tribes and more. And even now, as I said, admiration of white/”nordic” features is not even remotely universal.

    There’s almost nothing else worth replying to in your rambling, semi-literate essay. Nice to see how you refer to all non-whites as “the savages” and accuse me of being non-white or jewish (I’m neither). Or that you think there’s anything I envy about you. And that you admit you’re 74, so what I’m really dealing with is some malcontent, neurotic old man.

    Peter: I am not just talking about bobbed hair. I am referring to all hairstyles that entail reducing absolute length/downward visibility, like braids, buns etc. etc. Hair such as this and other “shorter” hairstyles have been popular throughout history. Baroque hairstyles and even hairstyles among east asian geishas, court maidens etc. have entailed hair that is heavily styled in some way that is not clearly straight and downward, and have often resembled afros in how they grow upward and outward (baroque hair was often heavily curled).

    You say that about European women, but I think it’s pretty clear from your writings you think features found in European women (particularly skin color) are among the most attractive to men on an intrinsic level, but that’s another matter. You in this post and others on hair clearly allude to straight hair being the most attractive. There are many issues with this, even looking at africans, and again, there’s even the issue as to whether africans/the first AMH out of africa had kinky hair. Again, other african-like populations descended largely from the first AMH OOA do not have kinky hair.

    I am also still curious about your claims with Europeans having a more “childlike face.”

    Europeans also do not have the greatest diversity of hair texture- middle easterners more frequently have curly hair, and various melanesians seem to have hair textures that cover close to the entire range possible in humans. Southern europeans also more frequently have curly hair, so northern europeans aren’t *that* diverse in hair texture.

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  72. Sean says:
    @Jm8
    "Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia"

    This is not the case "historically" but mostly within the last hundred years or so (much less in some areas). The Great power and influence of the West globally ( at its height roughly at the same period) has tended to increased the status and cache of all things western in non western regions (hence the example of westernizing facial surgery in Asia).

    If long straight hair in women was a modern western fashion it would explain why Nicki Minaj affects it, but why did she boost her buttocks? Rather than one set of fans for her wig and another for her her rump, is it not more likely that she is appealing to everyone by looking as attractive as possible with fine facial features (especially nose) long straight hair, large breasts and big rear end. Not everything Nicki Minaj has altered about herself to have a more physically attractive appearance made her less black looking, because her huge backside is certainly not Asian or European looking, but still there is a definite bias. In her business she has to look as good as she can to as many people as she can, like Beyonce (another bewigged woman with a boosted bottom). No European cultural dominance has skewed men’s sexual appetites and perceptions, it is just brain algorithms that are most affected by a certain look and women admire and want that look, which the right hair is a big part of. Apart from Michael Jackson types who are not very interested in women, black men don’t want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head. A couple of studies have found that black men are rated more physically attractive.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    "black men don’t want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head."

    For those who wish to seem feminine(as many/most women do) and Western-like, long hair that is afro-textured (and not similar to western/eurasian hair) may help in the former, but obviously not the latter goal.

    Hair straightening for black men actually was fashionable for much of the twentieth century(though far from universal). Around the 1930's a chemically relaxed style called the conk was popular(especially in urban areas like Harlem) with some(including Malcolm X and his criminal associates before his conversion in prison.).
    I recall a late nineteenth century source describing freed male slaves, recently arrived in cities, trying to flattening their hair with stockings to create a looser(less kinky) wave pattern (The do-rag worn by some in the hip-hop subculture has a similar purpose.).
    Straight hair was seen as chic, dapper, or more sophisticated (higher in status) in many black circles. Malcolm X and others recount that "nappy"/kinky hair was considered shameful and looked down upon. Straight pompadours can be seen on black musicians from the 50's-60's(especially celebrities/musicians) Eg: Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, Sammy Davis Jr. In the 1980s there was a fad for the chemical retextured style called the Jeri curl.
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  73. Miterse_ says:
    @Sean

    I don’t know the exact genetics of hair growth, and while it might be possible africans are on average less capable of growing their hair to a maximum outward length, there is nothing whatsoever to suggest kinky hair is fundamentally incapable of growing in great abundance/outward length, even if, in it’s completely natural state,
     
    You're at it again. Africans are necessarily capable of growing their hair to a length that is a maximum. An individual or average African maximum, even straightened is shorter than the equivalent in Asians South Americans and South Asians, which is why people in those countries can make money growing their hair and selling it to make hair extensions, while Africans can't.

    African women rarely wear Afro type hair extensions. Historically, the form of hair sought in Africa is a form that originated in Eurasia, and that is still true.


    http://realnewsmagazine.net/women/craze-for-foreign-human-hair/ Craze for Foreign Human Hair Nigerian women fall of expensive foreign human hair extensions which most regard as status symbol. Manufacturers of the products exploit the fad to blump fake hair extensions in the country.A WOMAN’S hair is her beauty. To most women, this is not an understatement. The hair plays a crucial role in enhancing their looks and for this reason they do not take the care of their hair for granted. It gets a great deal of attention. Giving their hair good attention also means that they spend a lot of money to look good. Among today’s women, there is an ongoing rave to outdo the other through the hairstyle they wear. Many of them spend huge sums of money trying to win this undeclared and unending competition. For most women, the popular human hair extensions in vogue which include Brazilian, Indian, Peruvian, Malaysian, Bohemian Arabian, Russian, Ukrainian, Mongolian, Chinese, European, Virgin, Argentine, and Cambodian hairs among others are the way to go.
     

    No, you just homed in on one admission of mine that seemingly confirmed one of your strange fixations (and you’re still at trying to defend what Peter said just because it’s from him.) I’ll admit one thing though- I am not entirely sure what Peter has been arguing about the nature of african hair (aside from arguing it is objectively less attractive than straighter hair). Here’s the two angles I’ve gotten from him:

    -Kinky hair can grow “long”, but less sexual selection of women has impeded it from growing out more than a few inches like a mop, on average, on top of this hair type being less appealing and reflecting lower levels of sexual selection.
    -Kinky hair by it’s nature is incapable of growing longer, and this on top of it’s texture reflects lowered sexual selection of women.

    The second is the impression I’ve been getting. If he hasn’t been arguing that, I apologize, but I think his entire argument is based on him reiterating a popular misconception, and not considering non-africans with the same hair or whether humans in africa have always had kinky hair.

    Going back to what I said about the genetics of hair growth, I can’t say if I’ve ever encountered a girl/woman who’s ever given the impression or said they’re incapable of growing their hair to a certain length. How easily you can grow out your hair depends on genetics that varies on an individual basis, even for people with the same exact hair texture/color. However, whether you can you grow your hair as far as possible seems to depend overwhelmingly on how you care for it, I don’t know how often it “stops” for people.

    The point is that there is little clear evidence africans can’t grow their hair out to great “length” on average or really have any difficulty or that it generally stops at some point- although it does grow in an outward/upward fashion, there is no evidence that it generally “stops” and they require extensions of any kind, even when it’s straightened, much less that it can’t grow out more than a few inches. It’s pretty doubtful since nearly all other people with their hair have no trouble growing big afros and such, on top of melanesians/papuans often being highly polgyamous- like africans, but somehow have no difficulty growing abundant hair.

    The other point of contention we keep having is that african hair is relatively “shorter” because it curls, but there isn’t clear evidence, if you compare them to other populations (including east africans) with the same hair, it is objectively less attractive, nevermind all I keep saying about visible, downward straight hair not being universally seen as ideal. Or that it’s even accurate to actually call their hair shorter.

    For what it’s worth, this is the woman with the longest hair on record: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2282203/I-black-Rapunzel-Its-baby-sweetheart-crown-Florida-woman-addicted-growing-hair-mane-21FEET-long.html

    She’s from Trinidad & Tobago, so she likely has indian ancestry, but still.

    You are wrong that “eurasian” hair has been sought after throughout African history or that such hair has universally been preferred. I won’t deny that traditional african hairstyles are usually different from afros and often straightened in some way, but that’s likely some peculiar neurosis typical black africans have for whatever reason, since again, few other people with hair like them behave how they do.

    Since I keep mentioning them, maybe photos will suffice- here’s various papuans and melansians:http://www.bougainville24.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/100-Kul-Festival.jpghttp://1.bp.blogspot.com/-9kz_iEC7dzY/TYI7fvyGXzI/AAAAAAAAAGI/JTf–B4KLGI/s1600/blonde-melanesians.jpg
    Here’s various negritos:https://i.ytimg.com/vi/KTJKOF7Twzw/hqdefault.jpghttp://40.media.tumblr.com/fd5792bb3f2eda30042798d8b2a128e6/tumblr_myc32ur4TE1t0u74to4_500.jpg
    And finally, here’s various pieces of Ethiopian church art:http://static1.squarespace.com/static/53e31095e4b04d937f3244b6/t/55223b80e4b0e4ad5009521c/1428306818051/
    For what it’s also worth, the men and women of the Ethiopian royal family sported afros:http://40.media.tumblr.com/608dfc2dee558b41a2395f7007702cf4/tumblr_mijxnnt9Ax1r6jme9o1_500.jpg
    And again, we don’t know exactly what the hair of people AMH humans who first left Africa was, much less whether africans have always had the same hair.

    I almost missed your most recent comment, but Nicki Minaj does not have fine facial features, or an appealing nose. I’d say it’s too sharp, and uneven if you look at in profile:
    We can also talk about the impressions of various non-europeans to white facial features- old racial caricatures of whites (which still crop up) from east asians have them resembling jewish caricatures. They Japanese never considered the Ainu attractive either, despite the Japanese being the most “caucasoid” east asians, sharing ancestry with the Ainu-like Jomon and some Ainu ancestry as well.

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  74. Jm8 says:
    @Sean
    https://twitter.com/akumufiona/status/652862178043801600


    If long straight hair in women was a modern western fashion it would explain why Nicki Minaj affects it, but why did she boost her buttocks? Rather than one set of fans for her wig and another for her her rump, is it not more likely that she is appealing to everyone by looking as attractive as possible with fine facial features (especially nose) long straight hair, large breasts and big rear end. Not everything Nicki Minaj has altered about herself to have a more physically attractive appearance made her less black looking, because her huge backside is certainly not Asian or European looking, but still there is a definite bias. In her business she has to look as good as she can to as many people as she can, like Beyonce (another bewigged woman with a boosted bottom). No European cultural dominance has skewed men's sexual appetites and perceptions, it is just brain algorithms that are most affected by a certain look and women admire and want that look, which the right hair is a big part of. Apart from Michael Jackson types who are not very interested in women, black men don't want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head. A couple of studies have found that black men are rated more physically attractive.

    “black men don’t want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head.”

    For those who wish to seem feminine(as many/most women do) and Western-like, long hair that is afro-textured (and not similar to western/eurasian hair) may help in the former, but obviously not the latter goal.

    Hair straightening for black men actually was fashionable for much of the twentieth century(though far from universal). Around the 1930′s a chemically relaxed style called the conk was popular(especially in urban areas like Harlem) with some(including Malcolm X and his criminal associates before his conversion in prison.).
    I recall a late nineteenth century source describing freed male slaves, recently arrived in cities, trying to flattening their hair with stockings to create a looser(less kinky) wave pattern (The do-rag worn by some in the hip-hop subculture has a similar purpose.).
    Straight hair was seen as chic, dapper, or more sophisticated (higher in status) in many black circles. Malcolm X and others recount that “nappy”/kinky hair was considered shameful and looked down upon. Straight pompadours can be seen on black musicians from the 50′s-60′s(especially celebrities/musicians) Eg: Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, Sammy Davis Jr. In the 1980s there was a fad for the chemical retextured style called the Jeri curl.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Women were going about in ponchos for a while. Currently, all celebs have freedom to wear any hair they like, and they strongly incline to the hairstyle that humans have preferred around the world for most of human history, especially in Africa. Women like the long straight hair look and men like a short cut especially around the sides and back. The paper refers to actors in competition trying to look special, and there is no evidence that black celebs have different appeal to whites. A black man is judged attractive by black women by the same standard that women of any race judge men of any race attractive. Women are trying for more or less the same look with their hair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Angela_Davis_en_Bogot%C3%A1,_Septiembre_de_2010.jpg

    There is one enduring standard the world over for what is attractive, despite fads that come and go (such as beards or bobs). Darwin was the first person to notice this, and to do it he had to synthesise the big picture's relevant aspects from the background. We are not discussing fashions and culture but geographic variations in appearance despite the apparent worldwide similar standards of appearance. Perhaps you think European men do not like big bottomed women, or European women don't prefer big penes.

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  75. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @joe webb
    your examples of contradiction of my assertion of world-wide admiration of blonde hair and blue eyes is absurd. Why? cuz in all the examples you present, they come from times before blonde hair and blue eyes were present to be seen by the savages, which I assume is your personal point of identification. Because most of these folks do not attempt to die their hair blonde, though many do, particularly American Black women, does not negate my claim that they admire blondes. The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me....fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes...genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion...it has been about 4 weeks...she's just another loopy girl I guess.

    I just met a blonde 40ish who is very interested. All of this personal experience is to the point of Blondes do have more fun. Do you know who invented the dumb Polish jokes? Maybe you are a jew...jews invented them because Poles somehow learned to hate Jews ....strange but true.

    Gentlemen prefer brunettes, or at least I do, probably cuz brunettes are generally better looking in their faces , but not their bodies, than blondes. Blondes, are taller, and the more Scandinavian type tend, in their faces, to be harder, and more male, just like their bigger and longer bodies, which are delightful. The brunette is typically softer in face, more neotenous and shorter.

    The Scandinavian men have chosen well, over the centuries, and the hunter-gatherer pedigrees show up in their women...more athletic than brunettes.

    What I said about child porn was that the chief probation officer of San Mateo County, Stuart Forrest, who was Black and ugly but pretty smart, was arrested , fired from his post, and sent to jail for possessing child porn. I rhetorically wondered if he preferred little blonde boys with blue eyes, or was it girls, or was it little cute little negroes. I worked with him for several years. I told everybody that he was nuts, but nobody ever listens to me...too narcissistic I guess.

    I guess you had difficulty reading that because of your own mental condition...called Envy and maybe your are not lucky enough to have been born white. White privilege is real...just Nature.

    There was a story in toddy's NYT about ugly people, or what they cutely called, "looks challenged."
    They clucked about it, but did not propose laws to make beautiful people less attractive. I was relieved.

    What of course was overlooked was the evolutionary explanation for dislike or revulsion of ugly people. The evolutionary reason is that most mutations are not pro-fitness, and are probably usually ugly if they show. We have learned to get rid of babies like that, until now of course, in the Great Age of Equality. You may have noticed the way animals closely examine one-another, especially birds. If a feather is out of place, see ya next mating season. maybe.

    They say that personal appearance is about 80% of social acceptance, how you choose to dress, and your posture, about 10%, and what you say, about 10%. Thus, all White Nationalists appear in coat and tie while the slobs dress like juvenile delinquents and are perceived as such. This is just the way it is. I also stress keeping a smile on your face, like TV anchor people. Actually, the buddhists recommend it as well as it spreads a little joy around in social life. Nobody likes to look at a sourpuss, or lefties with anguished looks on their faces, or freaks. That is just the way it is.

    By the way , you can be beautiful and have a sour puss, and nobody is interested. Now That is a nice Evolutionary feature that selects for people with better temperaments. Lousy temperaments are a waste of parental investment time and money. And society suffers from humorless people as well.

    All of the above is about the way people behave from an evolutionary viewpoint. All Humanists are anti-evolutionary and a burden on high functioning society, white or sub-white.

    Joe Webb

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I’m sure you’re a very handsome man, but are you sure that these “gals” are checking you out? Aren’t you in your 60s? Do gals really check out older men like this?

    Read More
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  76. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @joe webb
    your examples of contradiction of my assertion of world-wide admiration of blonde hair and blue eyes is absurd. Why? cuz in all the examples you present, they come from times before blonde hair and blue eyes were present to be seen by the savages, which I assume is your personal point of identification. Because most of these folks do not attempt to die their hair blonde, though many do, particularly American Black women, does not negate my claim that they admire blondes. The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me....fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes...genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out apparently because of the Hell hath no Fury like a woman scorned as most sought out opinion seem to think it is thing. I dunno. How long can one keep up a kind of fury over mere racist opinion...it has been about 4 weeks...she's just another loopy girl I guess.

    I just met a blonde 40ish who is very interested. All of this personal experience is to the point of Blondes do have more fun. Do you know who invented the dumb Polish jokes? Maybe you are a jew...jews invented them because Poles somehow learned to hate Jews ....strange but true.

    Gentlemen prefer brunettes, or at least I do, probably cuz brunettes are generally better looking in their faces , but not their bodies, than blondes. Blondes, are taller, and the more Scandinavian type tend, in their faces, to be harder, and more male, just like their bigger and longer bodies, which are delightful. The brunette is typically softer in face, more neotenous and shorter.

    The Scandinavian men have chosen well, over the centuries, and the hunter-gatherer pedigrees show up in their women...more athletic than brunettes.

    What I said about child porn was that the chief probation officer of San Mateo County, Stuart Forrest, who was Black and ugly but pretty smart, was arrested , fired from his post, and sent to jail for possessing child porn. I rhetorically wondered if he preferred little blonde boys with blue eyes, or was it girls, or was it little cute little negroes. I worked with him for several years. I told everybody that he was nuts, but nobody ever listens to me...too narcissistic I guess.

    I guess you had difficulty reading that because of your own mental condition...called Envy and maybe your are not lucky enough to have been born white. White privilege is real...just Nature.

    There was a story in toddy's NYT about ugly people, or what they cutely called, "looks challenged."
    They clucked about it, but did not propose laws to make beautiful people less attractive. I was relieved.

    What of course was overlooked was the evolutionary explanation for dislike or revulsion of ugly people. The evolutionary reason is that most mutations are not pro-fitness, and are probably usually ugly if they show. We have learned to get rid of babies like that, until now of course, in the Great Age of Equality. You may have noticed the way animals closely examine one-another, especially birds. If a feather is out of place, see ya next mating season. maybe.

    They say that personal appearance is about 80% of social acceptance, how you choose to dress, and your posture, about 10%, and what you say, about 10%. Thus, all White Nationalists appear in coat and tie while the slobs dress like juvenile delinquents and are perceived as such. This is just the way it is. I also stress keeping a smile on your face, like TV anchor people. Actually, the buddhists recommend it as well as it spreads a little joy around in social life. Nobody likes to look at a sourpuss, or lefties with anguished looks on their faces, or freaks. That is just the way it is.

    By the way , you can be beautiful and have a sour puss, and nobody is interested. Now That is a nice Evolutionary feature that selects for people with better temperaments. Lousy temperaments are a waste of parental investment time and money. And society suffers from humorless people as well.

    All of the above is about the way people behave from an evolutionary viewpoint. All Humanists are anti-evolutionary and a burden on high functioning society, white or sub-white.

    Joe Webb

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out

    So you’re 74 years old, and “gals” and “very young” girls “in their 20s” are you checking you out constantly? I’m sure you’re a very handsome man, but gals generally don’t check out septuagenarians, no matter how handsome they are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Joey seems to live on his own planet just a bit. But I kinda like the little guy.
    , @iffen
    They might be trying to evaluate the thickness of the wallet.
    , @joe webb
    just the facts M'am. That's me. don't drink, never smoked, swim 150 laps every other day, and look great 6 foot , 200 pounds. doc says I'll live to 100, long enough I hope to see the liberal order collapse, which could happen within, say 3 years with a little help from our friends , the muzzies.

    I want to advise the younger folks here so, I dispense with modesty. Since I have finally figured it all out, after many decades of course and a family script of leftism, plus my own hyper-pathological dose of genetic altruism, I have arrived like King Lear, at Ripeness. Feels good, and the ladies love it. The ladies lacks direction and naturally look to the male for leadership. If you as a male cannot provide it, she will continue her search elsewhere.

    Evolution explains everything, including our loopy ladies who lack good reasoning ability since Nature endowed them with love, not Reason. That is all biological and nothing can be done about it. Some ladies overcome their loopiness, but not many, usually the very bright. I met a gal in Baltimore...airplane travel and at the airport. The only thing that allowed our chance meeting to develop was a very late shuttle to the hotel so while modestly turning her back to me for abut 20 minutes, I noticed from the corner of my eye that she was checking me out. So I asked her if she was going to the same hotel. We then talked.

    She has just graduated from med school, blond, long head, blue eyes, and beautiful. I said that since she is biologically oriented being a doc and all, would she be interested in some macro type biology with regard to race. I got nothing to lose here....so we got into it and she loved it. I gave her the global North vs. global South/Ice Age stuff, and like other smart folks I give this to, she lit up like a Christmas tree, the A ha! experience. On and on with Lynn/IQ, Rushton, and stayed away from The Jewish Question...too much. We finally parted when the shuttle came- different hotels, and I do not do one-night stands. She took my card greedily , lives in Toronto and looking for a residency for her medical stuff. Said she would love to come and see me in my great house that I built in the Redwoods, just south of SF. ( I had correctly identified her age (24 ) which was not really a big deal. I can count, college, med school, etc. I also identifed where she was from, long head, blonde, blue eyes, and so on...mostly Norway and north Germany. She was impressed. But elementary my dear Watson, for anybody instructed in White race variations.

    One other gal, 40ish that I met a couple years ago in Oregon, when I gave her the global North/South stuff....math teacher at local commuity college, another blonde, she simply ejaculated: Natural Selection! Smarts...nothing replaces it.

    As for being 74 and looking great, I have a great inter-personal manner, which folks love. This all adds up. And for you younger males, the evolutionary trait in females of looking for someone to feather the nest for the chillun...this means you cannot be broke. Finally, you tell a women she is beautiful and she goes goofy, assuming you have laid the groundwork, and mean it and also make no stupid sexual remarks.

    Continuing my confession here, I am ripe and women love it. I know what I am doing and the world steps aside for a man or woman who knows what they are doing. Except for the resenters and True Believers in wacky Religion and Philosophy, Love and Peace, and Diversity makes us stronger. Stop them and they want to kill you.

    Another gal I met two years ago who was 18 at the time and very bright and headed for Loyola University...the one in LA, Marymount?? fell in fascination with our White Nationalist material and of course, myself. (a Catholic...fascinated but...) Parents freaked out and came to the gym to talk to me. I said ok. That is not over, and there's a simple account for it...brains, beauty, emotional tone, and ripeness. If you are young and can achieve that, great. For me, it took a long time given my fretting over The World not being what I wanted it to be. Now I accept it...the biological world that is going to finally take its revenge on the Liberal Order of Money, Equality, Racial Equality, and Sameness. Of course, this will not be a totally bloodless counter-revolution
    ---------
    By the way, dipping into the Merchant of Venice, I notice besides the Jewish Question (forget it for awhile and focus on race differences ) that Portia has several suitors. The spear shaker sets up 3 racial types, yes straw men in you choose, but nevertheless consider his Moor: "Mislike me not for my complexion." He brags of his romantic exploits ( not me of course ) and his martial skill. He also cites "Good Fortune then" when actually it is his personality that will choose the wrong casket, gold, the flashy and impulsive. This is the Magian Arab, believing in magic. Sense, not Thought is his genetic , well, fate, but there is not magic in that. It is Evolution , or arrested development of same. The Man from the South: impulsive, stupid (not that the spear shaker would know that as a fact), and similar to guys today who wear gold chain necklaces.

    I will re-read Othello and see how the Other Man of the South holds up in this regard. Of course, Shakespeare was a Jew.

    Which brings up the 12-tone jew, what's his name? Schoenberg, the Jew as well. I was listening to a radio program about early Hollywood. Someone was reminiscing about the 1940s and remarked his admiration for Schoenberg who had shoen up there. He liked Schoenberg, but remarked that Schoenberg referred to Mozart as only a good arranger, not a true composer.

    Thus the jew takes his pound of flesh wherever. O Mozart was actually a jew too.

    Joe Webb
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  77. Truth says:
    @Anonymous

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out
     
    So you're 74 years old, and "gals" and "very young" girls "in their 20s" are you checking you out constantly? I'm sure you're a very handsome man, but gals generally don't check out septuagenarians, no matter how handsome they are.

    Joey seems to live on his own planet just a bit. But I kinda like the little guy.

    Read More
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  78. You are a reptile.

    Joe,

    I don’t want to see this sort of remark. Same goes for the other abusive remarks you routinely make. If I had the power to delete comments, I would automatically delete all of yours.

    Peter: I am not just talking about bobbed hair. I am referring to all hairstyles that entail reducing absolute length/downward visibility, like braids, buns etc. etc.

    One can do more with long hair than with short hair. This takes us back to the novelty effect. Novelty tends to heighten sexual attraction, especially if it interacts with a feature that is already attractive. This is the basis for many of the above hairstyling practices.

    I think it’s pretty clear from your writings you think features found in European women (particularly skin color) are among the most attractive to men on an intrinsic level, but that’s another matter. You in this post and others on hair clearly allude to straight hair being the most attractive.

    In the case of skin color, I don’t think the mental algorithm is sexual attraction per se, at least not principally. Women are lighter-skinned than men in all human populations as a result of changes in melanin concentration and cutaneous blood flow at puberty. This seems to be part of a complex of childlike traits that have become incorporated into the adult female (smoother, more hairless skin, smaller nose and chin, higher voice pitch, etc.), probably as a means to reduce male aggressiveness and induce feelings of care.

    In short, lighter skin was favored in women not so much through sexual selection at the time of mating but rather through improved pair bonding and survival after mating. This selection pressure has existed in all humans, but the strength of this selection pressure has varied. I don’t believe that white European skin is an adaptation to climate. For one thing, it arose long after humans entered Europe. For another, we don’t see a similar whitening of skin color in other humans that are indigenous to northern latitudes.

    Long, straight, silky hair seems to have followed a similar evolutionary trajectory. During infancy, Africans have silky hair that can form relatively long ringlets. They lose it as they grow older, whereas it persists in other humans. This seems to be the trajectory for the lengthening and straightening of human hair. It began initially as an infant trait that probably stimulated mental algorithms that evoke feelings of care.

    various melanesians seem to have hair textures that cover close to the entire range possible in humans.

    I can’t agree with this comment, unless you’re including Melanesians of predominantly Austronesian background. Melanesia isn’t a fair example in any case, since it’s a transition zone between Papuan and Austronesian populations who ultimately came from southern China.

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  79. iffen says:
    @Anonymous

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out
     
    So you're 74 years old, and "gals" and "very young" girls "in their 20s" are you checking you out constantly? I'm sure you're a very handsome man, but gals generally don't check out septuagenarians, no matter how handsome they are.

    They might be trying to evaluate the thickness of the wallet.

    Read More
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  80. Miterse_ says:

    But again, I am also talking about women with long hair who will style it in ways that reduce visible downward length or strands. That has hardly been uncommon. Curly hair (not just kinky hair) is also generally more versatile than straight hair.

    I don’t believe there is any clear evidence that the hair we see in africans was selected against in eurasia. You still have to consider the fact we do not know what sort of hair type modern humans had when they first started leaving africa, and whether africans have always had the same type of hair.

    You also strike me as being inconsistent with what sort of hair type was selected in eurasians- you keep referring to long, straight hair, and say “For another, we don’t see a similar whitening of skin color in other humans that are indigenous to northern latitudes.”, but mongoloid populations, overwhelmingly, are uniformly straight haired, from the americas to southeast asia, and also speculate that the greater hair texture diversity (which includes curly hair) in Europeans is related to novelty effects and is tied to their sexual selection.

    I am not including mixed melanesians. There are mixed melanesian-austronesian populations, but there’s plenty that are homogenous. Here are children from the Solomon Islands:
    http://mykeshinihair.com/keshini-hair-blog/beautiful-blonde-hair-dark-skin/

    They have all of the traits distinctive of melanesians/australoids, the facial features, dark skin and especially the blonde/light hair. This isn’t widespead, since most melanesians seem to have predominantly kinky hair, but atleast some parts of the Solomon Islands are homogenous and exhibit this range of hair texture.

    Even then, australoid peoples run the entire gamut of hair texture, from mostly straight-wavy with australian aborigines to kinky with most melanesians, nevermind the hair color diversity and the fact their are colorations (usually two-toned ones) that are found nowhere else in the world.

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  81. joe webb says:
    @Anonymous

    The local Chinese gals love to gaze at me….fact. Of course, if I was not still blonde they might also gaze because of my good looks. (Are you apoplectic yet?)

    I am still sorta blonde, and I notice , first that blondes give me more attention than brunettes…genetic similarity department. Now, because I am good looking I get a fair amount of attention, including from the very young, as in their 20s, in fact I have two twentieish beauties interested, or were at first, but when I gave them an earful of our racialist stuff, both freaked out. Of course, one of them I told that I was too old for her, I am 74, and she freaked out
     
    So you're 74 years old, and "gals" and "very young" girls "in their 20s" are you checking you out constantly? I'm sure you're a very handsome man, but gals generally don't check out septuagenarians, no matter how handsome they are.

    just the facts M’am. That’s me. don’t drink, never smoked, swim 150 laps every other day, and look great 6 foot , 200 pounds. doc says I’ll live to 100, long enough I hope to see the liberal order collapse, which could happen within, say 3 years with a little help from our friends , the muzzies.

    I want to advise the younger folks here so, I dispense with modesty. Since I have finally figured it all out, after many decades of course and a family script of leftism, plus my own hyper-pathological dose of genetic altruism, I have arrived like King Lear, at Ripeness. Feels good, and the ladies love it. The ladies lacks direction and naturally look to the male for leadership. If you as a male cannot provide it, she will continue her search elsewhere.

    [MORE]

    Evolution explains everything, including our loopy ladies who lack good reasoning ability since Nature endowed them with love, not Reason. That is all biological and nothing can be done about it. Some ladies overcome their loopiness, but not many, usually the very bright. I met a gal in Baltimore…airplane travel and at the airport. The only thing that allowed our chance meeting to develop was a very late shuttle to the hotel so while modestly turning her back to me for abut 20 minutes, I noticed from the corner of my eye that she was checking me out. So I asked her if she was going to the same hotel. We then talked.

    She has just graduated from med school, blond, long head, blue eyes, and beautiful. I said that since she is biologically oriented being a doc and all, would she be interested in some macro type biology with regard to race. I got nothing to lose here….so we got into it and she loved it. I gave her the global North vs. global South/Ice Age stuff, and like other smart folks I give this to, she lit up like a Christmas tree, the A ha! experience. On and on with Lynn/IQ, Rushton, and stayed away from The Jewish Question…too much. We finally parted when the shuttle came- different hotels, and I do not do one-night stands. She took my card greedily , lives in Toronto and looking for a residency for her medical stuff. Said she would love to come and see me in my great house that I built in the Redwoods, just south of SF. ( I had correctly identified her age (24 ) which was not really a big deal. I can count, college, med school, etc. I also identifed where she was from, long head, blonde, blue eyes, and so on…mostly Norway and north Germany. She was impressed. But elementary my dear Watson, for anybody instructed in White race variations.

    One other gal, 40ish that I met a couple years ago in Oregon, when I gave her the global North/South stuff….math teacher at local commuity college, another blonde, she simply ejaculated: Natural Selection! Smarts…nothing replaces it.

    As for being 74 and looking great, I have a great inter-personal manner, which folks love. This all adds up. And for you younger males, the evolutionary trait in females of looking for someone to feather the nest for the chillun…this means you cannot be broke. Finally, you tell a women she is beautiful and she goes goofy, assuming you have laid the groundwork, and mean it and also make no stupid sexual remarks.

    Continuing my confession here, I am ripe and women love it. I know what I am doing and the world steps aside for a man or woman who knows what they are doing. Except for the resenters and True Believers in wacky Religion and Philosophy, Love and Peace, and Diversity makes us stronger. Stop them and they want to kill you.

    Another gal I met two years ago who was 18 at the time and very bright and headed for Loyola University…the one in LA, Marymount?? fell in fascination with our White Nationalist material and of course, myself. (a Catholic…fascinated but…) Parents freaked out and came to the gym to talk to me. I said ok. That is not over, and there’s a simple account for it…brains, beauty, emotional tone, and ripeness. If you are young and can achieve that, great. For me, it took a long time given my fretting over The World not being what I wanted it to be. Now I accept it…the biological world that is going to finally take its revenge on the Liberal Order of Money, Equality, Racial Equality, and Sameness. Of course, this will not be a totally bloodless counter-revolution
    ———
    By the way, dipping into the Merchant of Venice, I notice besides the Jewish Question (forget it for awhile and focus on race differences ) that Portia has several suitors. The spear shaker sets up 3 racial types, yes straw men in you choose, but nevertheless consider his Moor: “Mislike me not for my complexion.” He brags of his romantic exploits ( not me of course ) and his martial skill. He also cites “Good Fortune then” when actually it is his personality that will choose the wrong casket, gold, the flashy and impulsive. This is the Magian Arab, believing in magic. Sense, not Thought is his genetic , well, fate, but there is not magic in that. It is Evolution , or arrested development of same. The Man from the South: impulsive, stupid (not that the spear shaker would know that as a fact), and similar to guys today who wear gold chain necklaces.

    I will re-read Othello and see how the Other Man of the South holds up in this regard. Of course, Shakespeare was a Jew.

    Which brings up the 12-tone jew, what’s his name? Schoenberg, the Jew as well. I was listening to a radio program about early Hollywood. Someone was reminiscing about the 1940s and remarked his admiration for Schoenberg who had shoen up there. He liked Schoenberg, but remarked that Schoenberg referred to Mozart as only a good arranger, not a true composer.

    Thus the jew takes his pound of flesh wherever. O Mozart was actually a jew too.

    Joe Webb

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You don't think these 20 year olds might just be being polite to a man who looks like he could be their grandfather? You think they're all looking for "one-night stands" with the 74 year old strange man ranting at them about race and genetics?
    , @Truth

    just the facts M’am
     
    Oh My God! You should be a comedian.

    Dude, between you and Twinkie I don't know who's more absurd. It you were a painting, Salvador Dali would have created you.
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  82. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @joe webb
    just the facts M'am. That's me. don't drink, never smoked, swim 150 laps every other day, and look great 6 foot , 200 pounds. doc says I'll live to 100, long enough I hope to see the liberal order collapse, which could happen within, say 3 years with a little help from our friends , the muzzies.

    I want to advise the younger folks here so, I dispense with modesty. Since I have finally figured it all out, after many decades of course and a family script of leftism, plus my own hyper-pathological dose of genetic altruism, I have arrived like King Lear, at Ripeness. Feels good, and the ladies love it. The ladies lacks direction and naturally look to the male for leadership. If you as a male cannot provide it, she will continue her search elsewhere.

    Evolution explains everything, including our loopy ladies who lack good reasoning ability since Nature endowed them with love, not Reason. That is all biological and nothing can be done about it. Some ladies overcome their loopiness, but not many, usually the very bright. I met a gal in Baltimore...airplane travel and at the airport. The only thing that allowed our chance meeting to develop was a very late shuttle to the hotel so while modestly turning her back to me for abut 20 minutes, I noticed from the corner of my eye that she was checking me out. So I asked her if she was going to the same hotel. We then talked.

    She has just graduated from med school, blond, long head, blue eyes, and beautiful. I said that since she is biologically oriented being a doc and all, would she be interested in some macro type biology with regard to race. I got nothing to lose here....so we got into it and she loved it. I gave her the global North vs. global South/Ice Age stuff, and like other smart folks I give this to, she lit up like a Christmas tree, the A ha! experience. On and on with Lynn/IQ, Rushton, and stayed away from The Jewish Question...too much. We finally parted when the shuttle came- different hotels, and I do not do one-night stands. She took my card greedily , lives in Toronto and looking for a residency for her medical stuff. Said she would love to come and see me in my great house that I built in the Redwoods, just south of SF. ( I had correctly identified her age (24 ) which was not really a big deal. I can count, college, med school, etc. I also identifed where she was from, long head, blonde, blue eyes, and so on...mostly Norway and north Germany. She was impressed. But elementary my dear Watson, for anybody instructed in White race variations.

    One other gal, 40ish that I met a couple years ago in Oregon, when I gave her the global North/South stuff....math teacher at local commuity college, another blonde, she simply ejaculated: Natural Selection! Smarts...nothing replaces it.

    As for being 74 and looking great, I have a great inter-personal manner, which folks love. This all adds up. And for you younger males, the evolutionary trait in females of looking for someone to feather the nest for the chillun...this means you cannot be broke. Finally, you tell a women she is beautiful and she goes goofy, assuming you have laid the groundwork, and mean it and also make no stupid sexual remarks.

    Continuing my confession here, I am ripe and women love it. I know what I am doing and the world steps aside for a man or woman who knows what they are doing. Except for the resenters and True Believers in wacky Religion and Philosophy, Love and Peace, and Diversity makes us stronger. Stop them and they want to kill you.

    Another gal I met two years ago who was 18 at the time and very bright and headed for Loyola University...the one in LA, Marymount?? fell in fascination with our White Nationalist material and of course, myself. (a Catholic...fascinated but...) Parents freaked out and came to the gym to talk to me. I said ok. That is not over, and there's a simple account for it...brains, beauty, emotional tone, and ripeness. If you are young and can achieve that, great. For me, it took a long time given my fretting over The World not being what I wanted it to be. Now I accept it...the biological world that is going to finally take its revenge on the Liberal Order of Money, Equality, Racial Equality, and Sameness. Of course, this will not be a totally bloodless counter-revolution
    ---------
    By the way, dipping into the Merchant of Venice, I notice besides the Jewish Question (forget it for awhile and focus on race differences ) that Portia has several suitors. The spear shaker sets up 3 racial types, yes straw men in you choose, but nevertheless consider his Moor: "Mislike me not for my complexion." He brags of his romantic exploits ( not me of course ) and his martial skill. He also cites "Good Fortune then" when actually it is his personality that will choose the wrong casket, gold, the flashy and impulsive. This is the Magian Arab, believing in magic. Sense, not Thought is his genetic , well, fate, but there is not magic in that. It is Evolution , or arrested development of same. The Man from the South: impulsive, stupid (not that the spear shaker would know that as a fact), and similar to guys today who wear gold chain necklaces.

    I will re-read Othello and see how the Other Man of the South holds up in this regard. Of course, Shakespeare was a Jew.

    Which brings up the 12-tone jew, what's his name? Schoenberg, the Jew as well. I was listening to a radio program about early Hollywood. Someone was reminiscing about the 1940s and remarked his admiration for Schoenberg who had shoen up there. He liked Schoenberg, but remarked that Schoenberg referred to Mozart as only a good arranger, not a true composer.

    Thus the jew takes his pound of flesh wherever. O Mozart was actually a jew too.

    Joe Webb

    You don’t think these 20 year olds might just be being polite to a man who looks like he could be their grandfather? You think they’re all looking for “one-night stands” with the 74 year old strange man ranting at them about race and genetics?

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  83. Sean says:
    @Jm8
    "black men don’t want to have long straight hair, they are much more likely to shave their head."

    For those who wish to seem feminine(as many/most women do) and Western-like, long hair that is afro-textured (and not similar to western/eurasian hair) may help in the former, but obviously not the latter goal.

    Hair straightening for black men actually was fashionable for much of the twentieth century(though far from universal). Around the 1930's a chemically relaxed style called the conk was popular(especially in urban areas like Harlem) with some(including Malcolm X and his criminal associates before his conversion in prison.).
    I recall a late nineteenth century source describing freed male slaves, recently arrived in cities, trying to flattening their hair with stockings to create a looser(less kinky) wave pattern (The do-rag worn by some in the hip-hop subculture has a similar purpose.).
    Straight hair was seen as chic, dapper, or more sophisticated (higher in status) in many black circles. Malcolm X and others recount that "nappy"/kinky hair was considered shameful and looked down upon. Straight pompadours can be seen on black musicians from the 50's-60's(especially celebrities/musicians) Eg: Chuck Berry, Muddy Waters, Sammy Davis Jr. In the 1980s there was a fad for the chemical retextured style called the Jeri curl.

    Women were going about in ponchos for a while. Currently, all celebs have freedom to wear any hair they like, and they strongly incline to the hairstyle that humans have preferred around the world for most of human history, especially in Africa. Women like the long straight hair look and men like a short cut especially around the sides and back. The paper refers to actors in competition trying to look special, and there is no evidence that black celebs have different appeal to whites. A black man is judged attractive by black women by the same standard that women of any race judge men of any race attractive. Women are trying for more or less the same look with their hair.

    There is one enduring standard the world over for what is attractive, despite fads that come and go (such as beards or bobs). Darwin was the first person to notice this, and to do it he had to synthesise the big picture’s relevant aspects from the background. We are not discussing fashions and culture but geographic variations in appearance despite the apparent worldwide similar standards of appearance. Perhaps you think European men do not like big bottomed women, or European women don’t prefer big penes.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Do you think European men like big bottomed women?
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  84. Thirdeye says:

    There is nothing to support the notion of nappy hair being the primordial humanoid hair. A covering of straight body hair is a feature of all other primates and most likely the earliest hominids. Nappy hair is adaptive for thermal regulation in conditions of intense heat and solar radiation. Brain temperature is critical, and humans lack the mechanisms other tropical critters have for regulating it. It’s mostly accomplished by increasing blood flow through the brain, which has its own drawbacks. Nappy hair has the advantage of absorbing solar radiation away from the scalp, further from the brain, and radiating the resultant heat into the air efficiently.

    This all leads to the question of how the earliest hominids became thermally maladapted to the tropical environment they evolved in. I suspect that it’s because they adapted to aquatic and riparian environments first, where they lost body hair and gained subcutaneous fat. Long hair was adaptive for amphibious critters raising infants, a sex-specific selection. The more parts of mama that a hominid infant could clutch, the lower the chance of drowning. Female humans show more of the aquatic adaptation than the males do, mainly in the amount of body fat. It may have been that the ability to take refuge in water was more important for females with infants than for males. Once amphibious apes started taking to the interior, a new form of thermal adaptation appeared in the form of nappy hair and the advantages of long hair were negated.

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  85. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    Women were going about in ponchos for a while. Currently, all celebs have freedom to wear any hair they like, and they strongly incline to the hairstyle that humans have preferred around the world for most of human history, especially in Africa. Women like the long straight hair look and men like a short cut especially around the sides and back. The paper refers to actors in competition trying to look special, and there is no evidence that black celebs have different appeal to whites. A black man is judged attractive by black women by the same standard that women of any race judge men of any race attractive. Women are trying for more or less the same look with their hair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Davis#/media/File:Angela_Davis_en_Bogot%C3%A1,_Septiembre_de_2010.jpg

    There is one enduring standard the world over for what is attractive, despite fads that come and go (such as beards or bobs). Darwin was the first person to notice this, and to do it he had to synthesise the big picture's relevant aspects from the background. We are not discussing fashions and culture but geographic variations in appearance despite the apparent worldwide similar standards of appearance. Perhaps you think European men do not like big bottomed women, or European women don't prefer big penes.

    Do you think European men like big bottomed women?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJlqMdsAfM Sophia Loren had a large backside by European standards, http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/uk-butt-implants-240

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2462097/Nicki-Minaj-launches-Kmart-fashion-line.html

    Who is Nicki Minaj trying to appeal to? Why everybody of course. There isn't a different standard for what is attractive, you just look at her.

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  86. Truth says:
    @joe webb
    just the facts M'am. That's me. don't drink, never smoked, swim 150 laps every other day, and look great 6 foot , 200 pounds. doc says I'll live to 100, long enough I hope to see the liberal order collapse, which could happen within, say 3 years with a little help from our friends , the muzzies.

    I want to advise the younger folks here so, I dispense with modesty. Since I have finally figured it all out, after many decades of course and a family script of leftism, plus my own hyper-pathological dose of genetic altruism, I have arrived like King Lear, at Ripeness. Feels good, and the ladies love it. The ladies lacks direction and naturally look to the male for leadership. If you as a male cannot provide it, she will continue her search elsewhere.

    Evolution explains everything, including our loopy ladies who lack good reasoning ability since Nature endowed them with love, not Reason. That is all biological and nothing can be done about it. Some ladies overcome their loopiness, but not many, usually the very bright. I met a gal in Baltimore...airplane travel and at the airport. The only thing that allowed our chance meeting to develop was a very late shuttle to the hotel so while modestly turning her back to me for abut 20 minutes, I noticed from the corner of my eye that she was checking me out. So I asked her if she was going to the same hotel. We then talked.

    She has just graduated from med school, blond, long head, blue eyes, and beautiful. I said that since she is biologically oriented being a doc and all, would she be interested in some macro type biology with regard to race. I got nothing to lose here....so we got into it and she loved it. I gave her the global North vs. global South/Ice Age stuff, and like other smart folks I give this to, she lit up like a Christmas tree, the A ha! experience. On and on with Lynn/IQ, Rushton, and stayed away from The Jewish Question...too much. We finally parted when the shuttle came- different hotels, and I do not do one-night stands. She took my card greedily , lives in Toronto and looking for a residency for her medical stuff. Said she would love to come and see me in my great house that I built in the Redwoods, just south of SF. ( I had correctly identified her age (24 ) which was not really a big deal. I can count, college, med school, etc. I also identifed where she was from, long head, blonde, blue eyes, and so on...mostly Norway and north Germany. She was impressed. But elementary my dear Watson, for anybody instructed in White race variations.

    One other gal, 40ish that I met a couple years ago in Oregon, when I gave her the global North/South stuff....math teacher at local commuity college, another blonde, she simply ejaculated: Natural Selection! Smarts...nothing replaces it.

    As for being 74 and looking great, I have a great inter-personal manner, which folks love. This all adds up. And for you younger males, the evolutionary trait in females of looking for someone to feather the nest for the chillun...this means you cannot be broke. Finally, you tell a women she is beautiful and she goes goofy, assuming you have laid the groundwork, and mean it and also make no stupid sexual remarks.

    Continuing my confession here, I am ripe and women love it. I know what I am doing and the world steps aside for a man or woman who knows what they are doing. Except for the resenters and True Believers in wacky Religion and Philosophy, Love and Peace, and Diversity makes us stronger. Stop them and they want to kill you.

    Another gal I met two years ago who was 18 at the time and very bright and headed for Loyola University...the one in LA, Marymount?? fell in fascination with our White Nationalist material and of course, myself. (a Catholic...fascinated but...) Parents freaked out and came to the gym to talk to me. I said ok. That is not over, and there's a simple account for it...brains, beauty, emotional tone, and ripeness. If you are young and can achieve that, great. For me, it took a long time given my fretting over The World not being what I wanted it to be. Now I accept it...the biological world that is going to finally take its revenge on the Liberal Order of Money, Equality, Racial Equality, and Sameness. Of course, this will not be a totally bloodless counter-revolution
    ---------
    By the way, dipping into the Merchant of Venice, I notice besides the Jewish Question (forget it for awhile and focus on race differences ) that Portia has several suitors. The spear shaker sets up 3 racial types, yes straw men in you choose, but nevertheless consider his Moor: "Mislike me not for my complexion." He brags of his romantic exploits ( not me of course ) and his martial skill. He also cites "Good Fortune then" when actually it is his personality that will choose the wrong casket, gold, the flashy and impulsive. This is the Magian Arab, believing in magic. Sense, not Thought is his genetic , well, fate, but there is not magic in that. It is Evolution , or arrested development of same. The Man from the South: impulsive, stupid (not that the spear shaker would know that as a fact), and similar to guys today who wear gold chain necklaces.

    I will re-read Othello and see how the Other Man of the South holds up in this regard. Of course, Shakespeare was a Jew.

    Which brings up the 12-tone jew, what's his name? Schoenberg, the Jew as well. I was listening to a radio program about early Hollywood. Someone was reminiscing about the 1940s and remarked his admiration for Schoenberg who had shoen up there. He liked Schoenberg, but remarked that Schoenberg referred to Mozart as only a good arranger, not a true composer.

    Thus the jew takes his pound of flesh wherever. O Mozart was actually a jew too.

    Joe Webb

    just the facts M’am

    Oh My God! You should be a comedian.

    Dude, between you and Twinkie I don’t know who’s more absurd. It you were a painting, Salvador Dali would have created you.

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  87. You still have to consider the fact we do not know what sort of hair type modern humans had when they first started leaving africa, and whether africans have always had the same type of hair.

    We don’t see long silky hair in any sub-Saharan population, including groups like the Khoisans and Pygmies who branched off at a very early date. The only exceptions are groups like the Fulani who show extensive admixture from North Africa or the Middle East.

    This question will ultimately be settled by looking at ancient DNA. For now, the consensus is that long silky hair is a derived human trait, i.e., it is evolutionarily recent.

    You also strike me as being inconsistent with what sort of hair type was selected in eurasians- you keep referring to long, straight hair, and say “For another, we don’t see a similar whitening of skin color in other humans that are indigenous to northern latitudes.”, but mongoloid populations, overwhelmingly, are uniformly straight haired, from the americas to southeast asia, and also speculate that the greater hair texture diversity (which includes curly hair) in Europeans is related to novelty effects and is tied to their sexual selection.

    The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. African infants have that kind of hair. It’s just a matter of extending it into older age groups and then accentuating its characteristics. In the case of whitening of skin and diversification of hair and eye color, ancestral humans had to wait until promising genetic mutations could appear. These characteristics also require a higher intensity of sexual selection. We see this with color polymorphisms in other species. They seem to arise only under conditions of strong sexual selection.

    I am not including mixed melanesians. There are mixed melanesian-austronesian populations, but there’s plenty that are homogenous.

    All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia.

    There is nothing to support the notion of nappy hair being the primordial humanoid hair. A covering of straight body hair is a feature of all other primates and most likely the earliest hominids.

    Several million years of divergent evolution separate humans from chimpanzees. Since hair doesn’t fossilize, we know nothing about the hair form of early hominids. See my previous comment.

    Nappy hair is adaptive for thermal regulation in conditions of intense heat and solar radiation.

    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let’s assume it to be true. Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We’re talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    This all leads to the question of how the earliest hominids became thermally maladapted to the tropical environment they evolved in. I suspect that it’s because they adapted to aquatic and riparian environments first, where they lost body hair and gained subcutaneous fat.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse_
    Humans have existed in Africa for a very, very long time. There is ultimately no reason to expect humans tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago had the same hair texture, or that the first AMH to leave Africa had the same hair. There has been considerable mixing between typical typical black africans and pygmies (which would help explain why they don't look that different, aside from height) and the khoisan have even curlier hair. East africans can also exhibit straightish-curly hair, unless you're of the belief their features are because they're mixed.

    And I don't know why you're still calling straight hair "derived", when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals. Your reason seems to be because kinky hair might have arisen earlier in human evolution, but that doesn't mean it's ancestral. A feature can still be derived if it didn't arise with the most recent speciation. I'm pretty sure early hominids could also exhibit straight hair. That so far doesn't seem to be the case with any primate species we've uncovered.

    "The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. etc."

    This doesn't really answer what I'm pointing out. I guess you're not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren't even most diverse hair-texture wise among "caucasoids", and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn't entirely clear.

    "All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia."

    This is the first time I've heard this (along with there being aborigines with extensive austronesian mixture), and that might also be because it doesn't make any sense. Why do melanesians widely have similar features, like the dark skin, facial structure, kinky hair, and light (sometimes two-toned) hair, all of which are rare or absent in austronesians? Why do we see this constellation of features in places like deep in the most isolated parts of PNG and the australian outback? Those people have extensive austronesian admixture? Even the very dark bougainville islanders, who also have similar facial features and often exhibit brown (and even light brown) hair?

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    When you expressed skepticism at the idea there are melanesians who could exhibit such a range of hair texture, I assumed it was because it didn't readily fit your theories of sexual selection and polygamy vs. monogamy, and you thought I was referring to somewhere clearly mixed. Now you're claiming that "all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture", to apparently explain away any features found in melanesians that don't readily fit this mold. I guess I'd like references, but I don't really expect them to hold up, because they don't really fit with basic observable reality.

    , @Thirdeye
    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let’s assume it to be true.

    It starts with some basic physics. The energy of absorbed radiation turns to heat. First, the closer the absorption is to the scalp, the more the heat is transferred to the bloodstream and the brain because of the inverse square law. That's why a sun hat has air space beneath the crown. Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law. Second, it is advantageous to have the radiation buffer ventilated. The more airspace within the radiation buffer the more efficient the ventilation. Nappy hair maximizes the airspace within the hair.

    Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We’re talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first. The hypothesis that nappy hair was first is the more complex one that requires more complex explanation. That being the case, it carries a greater burden of proof than the simpler straight-first hypothesis. There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    You overlooked one excellent example of an amphibious mammal in Africa, the hippopotamus. Amphibious hominids may have been quite blubbery compared to modern humans. Again, your constraining timeframe is wrong. The earliest hominid fossils are much older than 60,000 years and occur in the Afar Depression. They occur along with stratigraphic evidence for an environment with extensive surface water.
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  88. Miterse_ says:
    @Peter Frost
    You still have to consider the fact we do not know what sort of hair type modern humans had when they first started leaving africa, and whether africans have always had the same type of hair.

    We don't see long silky hair in any sub-Saharan population, including groups like the Khoisans and Pygmies who branched off at a very early date. The only exceptions are groups like the Fulani who show extensive admixture from North Africa or the Middle East.

    This question will ultimately be settled by looking at ancient DNA. For now, the consensus is that long silky hair is a derived human trait, i.e., it is evolutionarily recent.

    You also strike me as being inconsistent with what sort of hair type was selected in eurasians- you keep referring to long, straight hair, and say “For another, we don’t see a similar whitening of skin color in other humans that are indigenous to northern latitudes.”, but mongoloid populations, overwhelmingly, are uniformly straight haired, from the americas to southeast asia, and also speculate that the greater hair texture diversity (which includes curly hair) in Europeans is related to novelty effects and is tied to their sexual selection.

    The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. African infants have that kind of hair. It's just a matter of extending it into older age groups and then accentuating its characteristics. In the case of whitening of skin and diversification of hair and eye color, ancestral humans had to wait until promising genetic mutations could appear. These characteristics also require a higher intensity of sexual selection. We see this with color polymorphisms in other species. They seem to arise only under conditions of strong sexual selection.

    I am not including mixed melanesians. There are mixed melanesian-austronesian populations, but there’s plenty that are homogenous.

    All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia.

    There is nothing to support the notion of nappy hair being the primordial humanoid hair. A covering of straight body hair is a feature of all other primates and most likely the earliest hominids.

    Several million years of divergent evolution separate humans from chimpanzees. Since hair doesn't fossilize, we know nothing about the hair form of early hominids. See my previous comment.

    Nappy hair is adaptive for thermal regulation in conditions of intense heat and solar radiation.

    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let's assume it to be true. Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We're talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    This all leads to the question of how the earliest hominids became thermally maladapted to the tropical environment they evolved in. I suspect that it’s because they adapted to aquatic and riparian environments first, where they lost body hair and gained subcutaneous fat.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    Humans have existed in Africa for a very, very long time. There is ultimately no reason to expect humans tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago had the same hair texture, or that the first AMH to leave Africa had the same hair. There has been considerable mixing between typical typical black africans and pygmies (which would help explain why they don’t look that different, aside from height) and the khoisan have even curlier hair. East africans can also exhibit straightish-curly hair, unless you’re of the belief their features are because they’re mixed.

    And I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals. Your reason seems to be because kinky hair might have arisen earlier in human evolution, but that doesn’t mean it’s ancestral. A feature can still be derived if it didn’t arise with the most recent speciation. I’m pretty sure early hominids could also exhibit straight hair. That so far doesn’t seem to be the case with any primate species we’ve uncovered.

    “The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. etc.”

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out. I guess you’re not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren’t even most diverse hair-texture wise among “caucasoids”, and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn’t entirely clear.

    “All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia.”

    This is the first time I’ve heard this (along with there being aborigines with extensive austronesian mixture), and that might also be because it doesn’t make any sense. Why do melanesians widely have similar features, like the dark skin, facial structure, kinky hair, and light (sometimes two-toned) hair, all of which are rare or absent in austronesians? Why do we see this constellation of features in places like deep in the most isolated parts of PNG and the australian outback? Those people have extensive austronesian admixture? Even the very dark bougainville islanders, who also have similar facial features and often exhibit brown (and even light brown) hair?

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    When you expressed skepticism at the idea there are melanesians who could exhibit such a range of hair texture, I assumed it was because it didn’t readily fit your theories of sexual selection and polygamy vs. monogamy, and you thought I was referring to somewhere clearly mixed. Now you’re claiming that “all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture”, to apparently explain away any features found in melanesians that don’t readily fit this mold. I guess I’d like references, but I don’t really expect them to hold up, because they don’t really fit with basic observable reality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out. I guess you’re not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren’t even most diverse hair-texture wise among “caucasoids”, and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn’t entirely clear.
     
    It is in the paper, the original north Eurasian population developed long hair "In many humans, head hair can grow to a much greater length than hair elsewhere on the body. This is a “derived” form that evolved outside Africa and probably in northern Eurasia. The ancestral form, which is frizzier and much shorter, survives in sub-Saharan Africans and in other groups whose ancestors never left the tropics. "

    There is a lot of polygamy in Africa, especially west Africa, and that is reality rather than a hypothesis. Women all over the world pay to get the longest hair look, and that is not due to anything Darwin said. He just noticed it. Either you are wrong, or all these women are wasting their time and money.
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  89. Jm8 says:

    “All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia.”

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically. Melanesians are closer to Papuans, and other Austronesians to East Asians.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanesians#Theories_of_Polynesian_migration_through_Melanesia

    http://news.temple.edu/news/genome-scan-shows-polynesians-have-little-genetic-relationship-melanesians

    “Our genetic analysis establishes that the Polynesians’ and Micronesians’ closest relationships are to Taiwan Aborigines and East Asians,” says Friedlaender. “Some groups in Island Melanesia who speak languages related to Polynesian, called Austronesian or Oceanic languages, do show a small Polynesian genetic contribution, but it is very minor – never more than 20 percent.”

    “There clearly was a lot of cultural and language influence that occurred, but the amount of genetic exchange between the groups along the way was remarkably low,” “

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  90. Thirdeye says:
    @Peter Frost
    You still have to consider the fact we do not know what sort of hair type modern humans had when they first started leaving africa, and whether africans have always had the same type of hair.

    We don't see long silky hair in any sub-Saharan population, including groups like the Khoisans and Pygmies who branched off at a very early date. The only exceptions are groups like the Fulani who show extensive admixture from North Africa or the Middle East.

    This question will ultimately be settled by looking at ancient DNA. For now, the consensus is that long silky hair is a derived human trait, i.e., it is evolutionarily recent.

    You also strike me as being inconsistent with what sort of hair type was selected in eurasians- you keep referring to long, straight hair, and say “For another, we don’t see a similar whitening of skin color in other humans that are indigenous to northern latitudes.”, but mongoloid populations, overwhelmingly, are uniformly straight haired, from the americas to southeast asia, and also speculate that the greater hair texture diversity (which includes curly hair) in Europeans is related to novelty effects and is tied to their sexual selection.

    The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. African infants have that kind of hair. It's just a matter of extending it into older age groups and then accentuating its characteristics. In the case of whitening of skin and diversification of hair and eye color, ancestral humans had to wait until promising genetic mutations could appear. These characteristics also require a higher intensity of sexual selection. We see this with color polymorphisms in other species. They seem to arise only under conditions of strong sexual selection.

    I am not including mixed melanesians. There are mixed melanesian-austronesian populations, but there’s plenty that are homogenous.

    All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia.

    There is nothing to support the notion of nappy hair being the primordial humanoid hair. A covering of straight body hair is a feature of all other primates and most likely the earliest hominids.

    Several million years of divergent evolution separate humans from chimpanzees. Since hair doesn't fossilize, we know nothing about the hair form of early hominids. See my previous comment.

    Nappy hair is adaptive for thermal regulation in conditions of intense heat and solar radiation.

    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let's assume it to be true. Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We're talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    This all leads to the question of how the earliest hominids became thermally maladapted to the tropical environment they evolved in. I suspect that it’s because they adapted to aquatic and riparian environments first, where they lost body hair and gained subcutaneous fat.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let’s assume it to be true.

    It starts with some basic physics. The energy of absorbed radiation turns to heat. First, the closer the absorption is to the scalp, the more the heat is transferred to the bloodstream and the brain because of the inverse square law. That’s why a sun hat has air space beneath the crown. Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law. Second, it is advantageous to have the radiation buffer ventilated. The more airspace within the radiation buffer the more efficient the ventilation. Nappy hair maximizes the airspace within the hair.

    Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We’re talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first. The hypothesis that nappy hair was first is the more complex one that requires more complex explanation. That being the case, it carries a greater burden of proof than the simpler straight-first hypothesis. There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    You overlooked one excellent example of an amphibious mammal in Africa, the hippopotamus. Amphibious hominids may have been quite blubbery compared to modern humans. Again, your constraining timeframe is wrong. The earliest hominid fossils are much older than 60,000 years and occur in the Afar Depression. They occur along with stratigraphic evidence for an environment with extensive surface water.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Just explain something to me, if Peter is wrong about hair why is it that women overwhelmingly over a wide range of times, places and races seem to want the type of hair he thinks works best to attract a desirable mate. Moreover, why is it that for thousands of years and in all major religions there has been such a mandatory covering of females' hair, and why is forbidding headscarves for women such an issue in in the modern world. If looking at women's hair is not intimately related to sex, what is the problem, eh?
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  91. Sean says:
    @Anonymous
    Do you think European men like big bottomed women?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJlqMdsAfM Sophia Loren had a large backside by European standards, http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/uk-butt-implants-240

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2462097/Nicki-Minaj-launches-Kmart-fashion-line.html

    Who is Nicki Minaj trying to appeal to? Why everybody of course. There isn’t a different standard for what is attractive, you just look at her.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    So are you saying that European men like big bottoms?

    Nicki Minaj's fan base appears to be mainly black. She's not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.
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  92. Sean says:
    @Miterse_
    Humans have existed in Africa for a very, very long time. There is ultimately no reason to expect humans tens or hundreds of thousands of years ago had the same hair texture, or that the first AMH to leave Africa had the same hair. There has been considerable mixing between typical typical black africans and pygmies (which would help explain why they don't look that different, aside from height) and the khoisan have even curlier hair. East africans can also exhibit straightish-curly hair, unless you're of the belief their features are because they're mixed.

    And I don't know why you're still calling straight hair "derived", when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals. Your reason seems to be because kinky hair might have arisen earlier in human evolution, but that doesn't mean it's ancestral. A feature can still be derived if it didn't arise with the most recent speciation. I'm pretty sure early hominids could also exhibit straight hair. That so far doesn't seem to be the case with any primate species we've uncovered.

    "The difference is that selection for lengthening and straightening of hair can act on a pre-existing genetic substrate. etc."

    This doesn't really answer what I'm pointing out. I guess you're not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren't even most diverse hair-texture wise among "caucasoids", and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn't entirely clear.

    "All Melanesians have extensive Austronesian admixture. We even see Austronesian admixture in parts of Papua New Guinea and on the north coast of Australia."

    This is the first time I've heard this (along with there being aborigines with extensive austronesian mixture), and that might also be because it doesn't make any sense. Why do melanesians widely have similar features, like the dark skin, facial structure, kinky hair, and light (sometimes two-toned) hair, all of which are rare or absent in austronesians? Why do we see this constellation of features in places like deep in the most isolated parts of PNG and the australian outback? Those people have extensive austronesian admixture? Even the very dark bougainville islanders, who also have similar facial features and often exhibit brown (and even light brown) hair?

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    When you expressed skepticism at the idea there are melanesians who could exhibit such a range of hair texture, I assumed it was because it didn't readily fit your theories of sexual selection and polygamy vs. monogamy, and you thought I was referring to somewhere clearly mixed. Now you're claiming that "all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture", to apparently explain away any features found in melanesians that don't readily fit this mold. I guess I'd like references, but I don't really expect them to hold up, because they don't really fit with basic observable reality.

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out. I guess you’re not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren’t even most diverse hair-texture wise among “caucasoids”, and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn’t entirely clear.

    It is in the paper, the original north Eurasian population developed long hair “In many humans, head hair can grow to a much greater length than hair elsewhere on the body. This is a “derived” form that evolved outside Africa and probably in northern Eurasia. The ancestral form, which is frizzier and much shorter, survives in sub-Saharan Africans and in other groups whose ancestors never left the tropics. “

    There is a lot of polygamy in Africa, especially west Africa, and that is reality rather than a hypothesis. Women all over the world pay to get the longest hair look, and that is not due to anything Darwin said. He just noticed it. Either you are wrong, or all these women are wasting their time and money.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miterse_
    The point is that Peter ties straight/downward hair into sexual selection, while simultaneously arguing that sexual selection in Europeans was strong enough it led to novelty effects that created their diversity of hair types (which isn't as diverse as other caucasoids), including curly hair (in contrast to mongoloids), which hasn't been that desirable throughout European history.

    But that's more besides the main point here. Women all over the world do not pay to get "the longest hair look", and that isn't true overwhelmingly over a range of times, places and races, outside of places where that hair type is ubiquitous. I've made it clear that even in populations with the longest, straightest, most visible hair that you two seem to variously fixate on hasn't always been the most popular by any stretch of the imagination, nevermind that long hair in men has variously and often been associated with masculinity. I've pointed out repeatedly that straightened hairstyles haven't been universally most popular in SS africa, especially among east africans, and all of the non-africans (nearly all of them really) with hair like them that don't behave the way they do. I've said all of this many times, and I've even provided photos of most all of these things (which is just the tip of the iceberg, and you can easily google for more.) I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

    I can't give you a straight answer why most africans have this tendency with their hair, but given how every other people with hair like theirs don't behave the way they do, it's difficult to say it's because their hair is simply less attractive.

    I never said anything about Darwin influencing modern hairstyles- I don't really know how you got that idea. Darwin's observation, "in the negro the hair forms a mere curly mat", was wrong, and Peter was wrong to quote him as evidence their hair doesn't grow out to any significant degree, and the idea itself is wrong.

    You ignore everything me and others have brought forth, and even accuse me of completely nonsensical things, because you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he's seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it's blatantly wrong, like here, and because you're likely on the autism spectrum.

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  93. Sean says:
    @Thirdeye
    This has been stated from time to time. No one has actually demonstrated it, but let’s assume it to be true.

    It starts with some basic physics. The energy of absorbed radiation turns to heat. First, the closer the absorption is to the scalp, the more the heat is transferred to the bloodstream and the brain because of the inverse square law. That's why a sun hat has air space beneath the crown. Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law. Second, it is advantageous to have the radiation buffer ventilated. The more airspace within the radiation buffer the more efficient the ventilation. Nappy hair maximizes the airspace within the hair.

    Do you believe that long, straight hair is simply due to relaxation of selection for frizzy hair? We’re talking about a time span of 60,000 years at most, and probably much less.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first. The hypothesis that nappy hair was first is the more complex one that requires more complex explanation. That being the case, it carries a greater burden of proof than the simpler straight-first hypothesis. There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    Uh huh. Like seals and whales. There is no evidence for such an aquatic stage of human evolution, certainly not over the last sixty thousand years.

    You overlooked one excellent example of an amphibious mammal in Africa, the hippopotamus. Amphibious hominids may have been quite blubbery compared to modern humans. Again, your constraining timeframe is wrong. The earliest hominid fossils are much older than 60,000 years and occur in the Afar Depression. They occur along with stratigraphic evidence for an environment with extensive surface water.

    Just explain something to me, if Peter is wrong about hair why is it that women overwhelmingly over a wide range of times, places and races seem to want the type of hair he thinks works best to attract a desirable mate. Moreover, why is it that for thousands of years and in all major religions there has been such a mandatory covering of females’ hair, and why is forbidding headscarves for women such an issue in in the modern world. If looking at women’s hair is not intimately related to sex, what is the problem, eh?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Men are attracted to longer straighter hair because women have it, not the other way around. Current tastes in women's hair are also affected by western standards of beauty, so they don't say much about the deeper basis of attraction to certain types of hair. Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce. Black men in the US used to "conk" their hair to make it straighter. Would you seriously argue that they were trying to make their hair more feminine, rather than trying to work their hair into Caucasian hair styles?
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  94. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Peter Frost
    I will never again be able to read stuff like this without thinking of Fred Reed’s article on evolution. Plausibility is taken for proof, he said.

    Humans aren't the same now as they were 40,000 years ago or even 10,000 years ago. We know this when we examine DNA from ancient human remains and even when we examine present-day DNA. Natural selection has modified at least 7% of the human genome over the last 40,000 years.

    The word "plausibility" becomes more apt when we talk about evolution over longer time scales, but that isn't the subject of this post.

    As for Fred Reed, I've come to the conclusion that there are personal reasons for his opposition to evolutionary thinking. I could argue the pros and cons of intelligent design with him but I don't see the point. That's not really the issue.

    You do realize that african-type hair grows out into an afro, right? They and similar populations are not naturally “short-haired”, contrary to your single reference to Darwin, or you relaying the popular myth that their hair doesn’t grow long.

    I'm talking about long, straight, silky hair. That kind of hair doesn't grow naturally in sub-Saharan Africa. Even with proper care, an afro cannot normally reach mid-back lengths. The hair is too brittle.

    It’s long been noticed that not only do African women have bigger buttocks, but African men prefer bigger buttocks in women than non-African men do. Presumably there’s some connection between this preference and the bigger buttocks of African women. Do you suppose there is? You’ve argued that sexual selection of African women has been relaxed, and if the bigger buttocks aren’t related to sexual selection, how do you suppose they evolved, and why do you suppose the preference exists?

    Steatopygia is most prevalent in the Khoisan hunter-gatherers of southern Africa. It seems to be a very old characteristic that predates the period of agriculture, female farming and maximum female reproductive autonomy, i.e., the period when sexual selection of African women was relaxed. I suspect it reflects an earlier time when polygyny was more limited in Africans and when there was some selection pressure on African women.

    If we look at Khoisans in recent times, they actually have low polygyny rates and relatively high female-female rivalry for male mates. Among the !Kung, about 75% of all women lose some reproductive time while waiting between partners, and 10–20% lose 5 to 15 years. Nancy Howell concluded that "A relative scarcity of husbands, then, is a regular and expected part of the !Kung marriage system" (Howell, 1979, pp. 247–250).

    Howell, N. (1979). Demography of the Dobe !Kung. New York7 Academic Press.

    Negroid types also often have a more bulbous/less sloping forehead(or as Mortagu says; “frontal skill eminences”)

    Please stay on topic. This isn't a post about "Negroid" brains.
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  95. Thirdeye says:
    @Sean
    Just explain something to me, if Peter is wrong about hair why is it that women overwhelmingly over a wide range of times, places and races seem to want the type of hair he thinks works best to attract a desirable mate. Moreover, why is it that for thousands of years and in all major religions there has been such a mandatory covering of females' hair, and why is forbidding headscarves for women such an issue in in the modern world. If looking at women's hair is not intimately related to sex, what is the problem, eh?

    Men are attracted to longer straighter hair because women have it, not the other way around. Current tastes in women’s hair are also affected by western standards of beauty, so they don’t say much about the deeper basis of attraction to certain types of hair. Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce. Black men in the US used to “conk” their hair to make it straighter. Would you seriously argue that they were trying to make their hair more feminine, rather than trying to work their hair into Caucasian hair styles?

    Read More
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  96. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npJlqMdsAfM Sophia Loren had a large backside by European standards, http://www.vice.com/en_uk/read/uk-butt-implants-240

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2462097/Nicki-Minaj-launches-Kmart-fashion-line.html

    Who is Nicki Minaj trying to appeal to? Why everybody of course. There isn't a different standard for what is attractive, you just look at her.

    So are you saying that European men like big bottoms?

    Nicki Minaj’s fan base appears to be mainly black. She’s not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    She’s not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.
     
    Well, OK then.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvgmFmewQgs
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  97. Miterse_ says:
    @Sean

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out. I guess you’re not necessarily arguing the straightest hair possible is ideal/related to selection, since wavy hair has been widely popular, but northern europeans aren’t even most diverse hair-texture wise among “caucasoids”, and mongoloids are very uniformly straight haired. Sexual selection as the explanation here isn’t entirely clear.
     
    It is in the paper, the original north Eurasian population developed long hair "In many humans, head hair can grow to a much greater length than hair elsewhere on the body. This is a “derived” form that evolved outside Africa and probably in northern Eurasia. The ancestral form, which is frizzier and much shorter, survives in sub-Saharan Africans and in other groups whose ancestors never left the tropics. "

    There is a lot of polygamy in Africa, especially west Africa, and that is reality rather than a hypothesis. Women all over the world pay to get the longest hair look, and that is not due to anything Darwin said. He just noticed it. Either you are wrong, or all these women are wasting their time and money.

    The point is that Peter ties straight/downward hair into sexual selection, while simultaneously arguing that sexual selection in Europeans was strong enough it led to novelty effects that created their diversity of hair types (which isn’t as diverse as other caucasoids), including curly hair (in contrast to mongoloids), which hasn’t been that desirable throughout European history.

    But that’s more besides the main point here. Women all over the world do not pay to get “the longest hair look”, and that isn’t true overwhelmingly over a range of times, places and races, outside of places where that hair type is ubiquitous. I’ve made it clear that even in populations with the longest, straightest, most visible hair that you two seem to variously fixate on hasn’t always been the most popular by any stretch of the imagination, nevermind that long hair in men has variously and often been associated with masculinity. I’ve pointed out repeatedly that straightened hairstyles haven’t been universally most popular in SS africa, especially among east africans, and all of the non-africans (nearly all of them really) with hair like them that don’t behave the way they do. I’ve said all of this many times, and I’ve even provided photos of most all of these things (which is just the tip of the iceberg, and you can easily google for more.) I’m not going to keep repeating myself.

    I can’t give you a straight answer why most africans have this tendency with their hair, but given how every other people with hair like theirs don’t behave the way they do, it’s difficult to say it’s because their hair is simply less attractive.

    I never said anything about Darwin influencing modern hairstyles- I don’t really know how you got that idea. Darwin’s observation, “in the negro the hair forms a mere curly mat”, was wrong, and Peter was wrong to quote him as evidence their hair doesn’t grow out to any significant degree, and the idea itself is wrong.

    You ignore everything me and others have brought forth, and even accuse me of completely nonsensical things, because you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Hair (and eye) colour novelty exists in Europeans, other peoples' is just very dark brown (ie black). If Peter is right about long silky hair, curly hair would be rarer in European women for the same reason small breasts are rarer in European women. Because, if men had a choice, they would tend to pick the women with long silky hair. Once all women had long silky hair, men would tend to pick the one with the brightest coloured long silky hair; once all women had long hair in unusual colours the men would choose the one with the big bust, once all women were the young Marylin Monroe men would chose the one with the fine features, which is why Monroe had extensive plastic surgery to refine her broad nose. Light skin is probably more of a care eliciting signal and may work against sexual arousal, which is why party girls have bronzed skin.

    Celebs like Sinéad O'Connor did not start a hairstyle craze in the way Jennifer Aniston's 'Rachel' did. The cliche look among young women who like to go clubbing is long hair, often dyed blonde and with extensions. Here was me thinking those girls were trying to look sexy, but according to you, they are autistic.
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  98. Truth says:
    @Anonymous
    So are you saying that European men like big bottoms?

    Nicki Minaj's fan base appears to be mainly black. She's not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.

    She’s not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.

    Well, OK then.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yeah, I'm sure Regis is really interested in Lil Wayne too, like he seems to suggest in that video clip. I mean it's not like feigning interest in celebrity guests is his job or anything as a TV show host.
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  99. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth

    She’s not very popular among white men, unlike say Taylor Swift, who does not have a big bottom.
     
    Well, OK then.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvgmFmewQgs

    Yeah, I’m sure Regis is really interested in Lil Wayne too, like he seems to suggest in that video clip. I mean it’s not like feigning interest in celebrity guests is his job or anything as a TV show host.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    I don't remember Regis patting George Clooney's ass, or offering to "go deep" in Matt Damon. If you have evidence this happened, please post such.
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  100. Truth says:
    @Anonymous
    Yeah, I'm sure Regis is really interested in Lil Wayne too, like he seems to suggest in that video clip. I mean it's not like feigning interest in celebrity guests is his job or anything as a TV show host.

    I don’t remember Regis patting George Clooney’s ass, or offering to “go deep” in Matt Damon. If you have evidence this happened, please post such.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well Regis isn't homosexual, so he wouldn't express sexual interest in his male celebrity guests. His job involves feigning interest in his celebrity guests, and that includes expressing sexual interest in his female guests regardless of appearance, such as telling unattractive female guests that they're beautiful.

    At any rate, what's your point? Are you suggesting that Nicki Minaj's fans aren't mostly black? That she's very popular among white men? That her large bottom appeals to white men and is calculated to appeal to white men? That she's actually more popular among white men than Taylor Swift is? That this is because she has a large bottom and Swift doesn't? What exactly are you trying to get at here?
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  101. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth
    I don't remember Regis patting George Clooney's ass, or offering to "go deep" in Matt Damon. If you have evidence this happened, please post such.

    Well Regis isn’t homosexual, so he wouldn’t express sexual interest in his male celebrity guests. His job involves feigning interest in his celebrity guests, and that includes expressing sexual interest in his female guests regardless of appearance, such as telling unattractive female guests that they’re beautiful.

    At any rate, what’s your point? Are you suggesting that Nicki Minaj’s fans aren’t mostly black? That she’s very popular among white men? That her large bottom appeals to white men and is calculated to appeal to white men? That she’s actually more popular among white men than Taylor Swift is? That this is because she has a large bottom and Swift doesn’t? What exactly are you trying to get at here?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Do African and African-American women straighten their hair and wear weaves or not? Do men of all races look at women's backsides or don't they? There are cosmetic surgeries increasingly .being done to enhance white females' rumps and while Nicki Minaj's rear is a little extreme for Europeans, her natural hair look is is long, straight and non African in appearance. Apparently it appeals to all her fans. http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-beauty/news/nicki-minaj-natural-hairstyle-stylist-2014224
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  102. I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It’s a derived trait. There isn’t even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don’t think it’s because blue hair would be less popular. It’s probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they’re uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn’t even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven’t answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it’s a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    "You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians."

    If Polynesians are Melanesian admixed (which I was aware of) and(some groups of) Melanesians have 20% "Polynesian admixture at most. That would seem further lower the likely amount of East Asian/Northern Eurasian admixture in Melanesians(Polynesians being primarily of early East asian origin, with a minority percent Melanesian-like admixture.)
    , @Thirdeye
    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    Balding would indeed be a problem if you were relying on nappy hair to keep the sun from frying your brain. But the age at which balding most commonly occurs is beyond the lifespan of most Pleistocene humans.

    As I said above, the similarity[between straight human hair and primate hair] isn’t even superficial.

    And nappy hair is even more dissimilar to primate hair. Nappy hair evolved from straight human hair is the simpler hypothesis. Only one other species of primate - the Hamadryas Baboon - has nappy hair, which grows exclusively on its head. It's not a particularly close relative to humans but it lives in a savanna environment, the most likely environment for nappy hair to have evolved among humans. Good example of parallel adaptation.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair.

    All we know about the southern Asian coastal migrants is that they had proto-Australoid skeletal features. They could have looked like the Dravidians, the Negritos, or both. One should also consider the possibility of parallel evolution for skin and hair features. For example, the epicanthic fold evolved independently among Mongoloids, northern Eurasians, and some Africans. It is meaningless as an indicator that any of those groups descended from one another. Similarly, the nappy hair among certain southeast Asians such as Negritos could have evolved independently from Africa in response to local conditions. All bets are off as to the types of environments that occurred resulting from the emergence of the Sundaland land mass.
    , @Thirdeye
    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    Yes, and when Asians were exposed to western hair fashions they adopted them, even though they had to fight the natural tendencies of their hair to do it. The point is that hair aesthetics are culturally transmitted, not innate. Traditional Chinese men wore their hair in a long braid down the back. It wasn't considered feminine.
    , @Miterse_
    All primates, and nearly all mammals, have straight or wavy hair. I don't know about their hair texture exactly, but it can either be coarse or non-coarse (and coarseness of hair isn't inextricable with curliness, as asians clearly attest, or "silkiness", another term you've been throwing around.) The hair of most other primates is short in an absolute sense and not comparable to kinky hair in humans, which is "short" only in a relative sense- primate hair generally stops growing at a certain length, whereas kinky hair can keep growing but appears as "shorter" because it curls. I am not going to repeat what I've been saying about that aesthetic value, and the reason it grows "shorter" in that way isn't comparable at all to primates. Nevermind there's plenty of primates that grow long hair- Thirdeye pointed out the Hamadryas baboon, another long haired primate, and even it's head hair isn't really curly, just frizzier.

    There is no real basis to saying kinky/curly hair is ancestral, and I'm surprised you'd even go to this length.

    "You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe."

    No, I was talking exclusively about hair texture. Reread what I've said about this. I will say your comparison of blue hair to red hair is strange because no mammal exhibits blue hair naturally.

    Out of curiosity, why do you think hair color is so diverse in among melanesians, ranging from australian aborigines to new guineans and people on the edges of melanesia, including red hair and two-toned hair colors absent in eurasians?

    "The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker."

    That's different from you claiming all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture. There is absolutely no reason to believe all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture when they by and large, even in the most isolated regions, have similar, distinct physical features, very different from austronesians, which you didn't answer. The solomon islanders I pointed out have high frequencies of blonde hair, and skin and facial features distinct from austronesians. I doubt their straighter hair came from the latter.

    I know there are parts of the pacific with considerably mixed austronesian-melanesian populations, but is your second link implying all polynesians mixed and carry significant admixture from melanesians? They're generally clearly distinct from melanesians. Few austronesians have anything other than black hair, and their hair is usually straight/wavy. I've never seen austronesians with kinky hair unless it's a clearly admixed population. Or many of the other features found commonly in melanesians

    "Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others."

    Sorry, but I made it clear my frustrations with Sean, and I have seen him exhibit this behavior elsewhere. It would be helpful if you could let him know he should stop engaging in what he seems to often do.

    Sean: Hair color novelty exists in other caucasoid peoples and even in melanesians. Peter claims novelty effects led to the greater diversity of not just hair and eye color, but also hair texture in northern and eastern europeans (which isn't as great as the diversity in other caucasoids) while at the same time claiming curly hair is less attractive than "long, silky, straight hair" or whatever other inaccurate, awkward terms you have for straight, eurasian hair. Peter by most every piece of evidence isn't right about that hair type, and you keep ignoring all evidence to the contrary (and go on some strange tangent about sexual selection and Marilyn Monroe.)

    Now you resort to a girl who shaved her hair, a behavior near-universally associated with mental instability (your stand in for curly/kinky hair, I'm guessing) and considered very unattractive in women vs. Jennifer Aniston as an example of how preference for "long straight silky hair!" is inherently more attractive. Sure.

    I never said anything about those girls and that look being evidence of autism (another one of your weird accusations), it was based on your behavior and strange ideas, which you've exhibited here (and continue to exhibit) and elsewhere.

    , @AnAnon
    "I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential." - How well does nappy hair trap heat? thermal dissipation is another big issue for the brain, so baldness wouldn't necessarily be a negative.
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  103. Sean says:
    @Miterse_
    The point is that Peter ties straight/downward hair into sexual selection, while simultaneously arguing that sexual selection in Europeans was strong enough it led to novelty effects that created their diversity of hair types (which isn't as diverse as other caucasoids), including curly hair (in contrast to mongoloids), which hasn't been that desirable throughout European history.

    But that's more besides the main point here. Women all over the world do not pay to get "the longest hair look", and that isn't true overwhelmingly over a range of times, places and races, outside of places where that hair type is ubiquitous. I've made it clear that even in populations with the longest, straightest, most visible hair that you two seem to variously fixate on hasn't always been the most popular by any stretch of the imagination, nevermind that long hair in men has variously and often been associated with masculinity. I've pointed out repeatedly that straightened hairstyles haven't been universally most popular in SS africa, especially among east africans, and all of the non-africans (nearly all of them really) with hair like them that don't behave the way they do. I've said all of this many times, and I've even provided photos of most all of these things (which is just the tip of the iceberg, and you can easily google for more.) I'm not going to keep repeating myself.

    I can't give you a straight answer why most africans have this tendency with their hair, but given how every other people with hair like theirs don't behave the way they do, it's difficult to say it's because their hair is simply less attractive.

    I never said anything about Darwin influencing modern hairstyles- I don't really know how you got that idea. Darwin's observation, "in the negro the hair forms a mere curly mat", was wrong, and Peter was wrong to quote him as evidence their hair doesn't grow out to any significant degree, and the idea itself is wrong.

    You ignore everything me and others have brought forth, and even accuse me of completely nonsensical things, because you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he's seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it's blatantly wrong, like here, and because you're likely on the autism spectrum.

    Hair (and eye) colour novelty exists in Europeans, other peoples’ is just very dark brown (ie black). If Peter is right about long silky hair, curly hair would be rarer in European women for the same reason small breasts are rarer in European women. Because, if men had a choice, they would tend to pick the women with long silky hair. Once all women had long silky hair, men would tend to pick the one with the brightest coloured long silky hair; once all women had long hair in unusual colours the men would choose the one with the big bust, once all women were the young Marylin Monroe men would chose the one with the fine features, which is why Monroe had extensive plastic surgery to refine her broad nose. Light skin is probably more of a care eliciting signal and may work against sexual arousal, which is why party girls have bronzed skin.

    Celebs like Sinéad O’Connor did not start a hairstyle craze in the way Jennifer Aniston’s ‘Rachel’ did. The cliche look among young women who like to go clubbing is long hair, often dyed blonde and with extensions. Here was me thinking those girls were trying to look sexy, but according to you, they are autistic.

    Read More
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  104. Sean says:
    @Anonymous
    Well Regis isn't homosexual, so he wouldn't express sexual interest in his male celebrity guests. His job involves feigning interest in his celebrity guests, and that includes expressing sexual interest in his female guests regardless of appearance, such as telling unattractive female guests that they're beautiful.

    At any rate, what's your point? Are you suggesting that Nicki Minaj's fans aren't mostly black? That she's very popular among white men? That her large bottom appeals to white men and is calculated to appeal to white men? That she's actually more popular among white men than Taylor Swift is? That this is because she has a large bottom and Swift doesn't? What exactly are you trying to get at here?

    Do African and African-American women straighten their hair and wear weaves or not? Do men of all races look at women’s backsides or don’t they? There are cosmetic surgeries increasingly .being done to enhance white females’ rumps and while Nicki Minaj’s rear is a little extreme for Europeans, her natural hair look is is long, straight and non African in appearance. Apparently it appeals to all her fans. http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-beauty/news/nicki-minaj-natural-hairstyle-stylist-2014224

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I'm sure it appeals to her fans, who seem to be mainly black, not white men, in contrast to Taylor Swift, who does not have a large bottom and whose fan base is mainly white. You keep intimating that white men are huge fans of Nicki Minaj, which simply isn't the case. Perhaps you are a big fan of Minaj and prefer large bottoms and like Minaj for that reason. That's great. But most white men aren't fans of Minaj and don't like large bottoms.

    The increasingly monocultural environment and its converging selection pressures which you cite as evidence for white male preference for large bottoms is bizarre in light of the fact that this same environment is one which is rapidly displacing whites, their cultures, their preferences, and their influence on selection pressures.
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  105. Jm8 says:
    @Peter Frost
    I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It's a derived trait. There isn't even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don't think it's because blue hair would be less popular. It's probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they're uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.
     
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn't even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven't answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it's a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.
     
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    “You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.”

    If Polynesians are Melanesian admixed (which I was aware of) and(some groups of) Melanesians have 20% “Polynesian admixture at most. That would seem further lower the likely amount of East Asian/Northern Eurasian admixture in Melanesians(Polynesians being primarily of early East asian origin, with a minority percent Melanesian-like admixture.)

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jm8
    Edit: That would seem to further lower the likely amount of East Asian/Northern Eurasian admixture in Melanesians...
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  106. Jm8 says:
    @Jm8
    "You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians."

    If Polynesians are Melanesian admixed (which I was aware of) and(some groups of) Melanesians have 20% "Polynesian admixture at most. That would seem further lower the likely amount of East Asian/Northern Eurasian admixture in Melanesians(Polynesians being primarily of early East asian origin, with a minority percent Melanesian-like admixture.)

    Edit: That would seem to further lower the likely amount of East Asian/Northern Eurasian admixture in Melanesians…

    Read More
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  107. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    Do African and African-American women straighten their hair and wear weaves or not? Do men of all races look at women's backsides or don't they? There are cosmetic surgeries increasingly .being done to enhance white females' rumps and while Nicki Minaj's rear is a little extreme for Europeans, her natural hair look is is long, straight and non African in appearance. Apparently it appeals to all her fans. http://www.usmagazine.com/celebrity-beauty/news/nicki-minaj-natural-hairstyle-stylist-2014224

    I’m sure it appeals to her fans, who seem to be mainly black, not white men, in contrast to Taylor Swift, who does not have a large bottom and whose fan base is mainly white. You keep intimating that white men are huge fans of Nicki Minaj, which simply isn’t the case. Perhaps you are a big fan of Minaj and prefer large bottoms and like Minaj for that reason. That’s great. But most white men aren’t fans of Minaj and don’t like large bottoms.

    The increasingly monocultural environment and its converging selection pressures which you cite as evidence for white male preference for large bottoms is bizarre in light of the fact that this same environment is one which is rapidly displacing whites, their cultures, their preferences, and their influence on selection pressures.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    Iggy Azalea and Rita Ora, look at them. Forget about the colour, what kind of hair has Swift got, and all female celebs got, the Kardashians got. Here they are with Minaj and Ariana Grande who has hair down to the small of her back. Swift's hair looks 100% real to me I suppose she is going to keep it long.

    I think white women tend to have smaller buttocks but broader hips (skeletal structure). For what it is worth, I think Swift looks below average by European standards in the backside/body department, but maybe she is able to get away with being a star despite being rather underweight because she has a good head of hair. Britney Spears was committed to psychiatric ward not long after she shaved her head.
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  108. Jm8 says:

    I apologize if this post is duplicate. When I tried to post it previously, it did not show, and I believed I had made an error.

    Several examples of Black Rastafarians from Jamaica with very long hair waist mid back-waist length(some longer)

    http://jamaica-gleaner.com/article/lead-stories/20140901/rastafarian-shows-10-foot-dreadlocks

    Zahra Redwood - Miss Jamaica Universe 2007

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  109. Thirdeye says:
    @Peter Frost
    I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It's a derived trait. There isn't even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don't think it's because blue hair would be less popular. It's probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they're uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.
     
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn't even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven't answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it's a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.
     
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    Balding would indeed be a problem if you were relying on nappy hair to keep the sun from frying your brain. But the age at which balding most commonly occurs is beyond the lifespan of most Pleistocene humans.

    As I said above, the similarity[between straight human hair and primate hair] isn’t even superficial.

    And nappy hair is even more dissimilar to primate hair. Nappy hair evolved from straight human hair is the simpler hypothesis. Only one other species of primate – the Hamadryas Baboon – has nappy hair, which grows exclusively on its head. It’s not a particularly close relative to humans but it lives in a savanna environment, the most likely environment for nappy hair to have evolved among humans. Good example of parallel adaptation.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair.

    All we know about the southern Asian coastal migrants is that they had proto-Australoid skeletal features. They could have looked like the Dravidians, the Negritos, or both. One should also consider the possibility of parallel evolution for skin and hair features. For example, the epicanthic fold evolved independently among Mongoloids, northern Eurasians, and some Africans. It is meaningless as an indicator that any of those groups descended from one another. Similarly, the nappy hair among certain southeast Asians such as Negritos could have evolved independently from Africa in response to local conditions. All bets are off as to the types of environments that occurred resulting from the emergence of the Sundaland land mass.

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  110. Thirdeye says:
    @Peter Frost
    I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It's a derived trait. There isn't even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don't think it's because blue hair would be less popular. It's probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they're uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.
     
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn't even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven't answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it's a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.
     
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    Yes, and when Asians were exposed to western hair fashions they adopted them, even though they had to fight the natural tendencies of their hair to do it. The point is that hair aesthetics are culturally transmitted, not innate. Traditional Chinese men wore their hair in a long braid down the back. It wasn’t considered feminine.

    Read More
    • Replies: @singh.jatt
    Yes, seeing every Hindu woman in a traditional suit with a long braid is 'western'

    See 1000s of 'white' women come back to their ancestral homeland of Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap is AIT.

    Maybe the real 'Aryan invasion' was hordes of women invading from England to Russia?

    After all, we did have polygny..
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  111. Miterse_ says:
    @Peter Frost
    I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It's a derived trait. There isn't even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don't think it's because blue hair would be less popular. It's probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they're uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.
     
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn't even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven't answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it's a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.
     
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    All primates, and nearly all mammals, have straight or wavy hair. I don’t know about their hair texture exactly, but it can either be coarse or non-coarse (and coarseness of hair isn’t inextricable with curliness, as asians clearly attest, or “silkiness”, another term you’ve been throwing around.) The hair of most other primates is short in an absolute sense and not comparable to kinky hair in humans, which is “short” only in a relative sense- primate hair generally stops growing at a certain length, whereas kinky hair can keep growing but appears as “shorter” because it curls. I am not going to repeat what I’ve been saying about that aesthetic value, and the reason it grows “shorter” in that way isn’t comparable at all to primates. Nevermind there’s plenty of primates that grow long hair- Thirdeye pointed out the Hamadryas baboon, another long haired primate, and even it’s head hair isn’t really curly, just frizzier.

    There is no real basis to saying kinky/curly hair is ancestral, and I’m surprised you’d even go to this length.

    “You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe.”

    No, I was talking exclusively about hair texture. Reread what I’ve said about this. I will say your comparison of blue hair to red hair is strange because no mammal exhibits blue hair naturally.

    Out of curiosity, why do you think hair color is so diverse in among melanesians, ranging from australian aborigines to new guineans and people on the edges of melanesia, including red hair and two-toned hair colors absent in eurasians?

    “The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.”

    That’s different from you claiming all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture. There is absolutely no reason to believe all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture when they by and large, even in the most isolated regions, have similar, distinct physical features, very different from austronesians, which you didn’t answer. The solomon islanders I pointed out have high frequencies of blonde hair, and skin and facial features distinct from austronesians. I doubt their straighter hair came from the latter.

    I know there are parts of the pacific with considerably mixed austronesian-melanesian populations, but is your second link implying all polynesians mixed and carry significant admixture from melanesians? They’re generally clearly distinct from melanesians. Few austronesians have anything other than black hair, and their hair is usually straight/wavy. I’ve never seen austronesians with kinky hair unless it’s a clearly admixed population. Or many of the other features found commonly in melanesians

    “Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.”

    Sorry, but I made it clear my frustrations with Sean, and I have seen him exhibit this behavior elsewhere. It would be helpful if you could let him know he should stop engaging in what he seems to often do.

    Sean: Hair color novelty exists in other caucasoid peoples and even in melanesians. Peter claims novelty effects led to the greater diversity of not just hair and eye color, but also hair texture in northern and eastern europeans (which isn’t as great as the diversity in other caucasoids) while at the same time claiming curly hair is less attractive than “long, silky, straight hair” or whatever other inaccurate, awkward terms you have for straight, eurasian hair. Peter by most every piece of evidence isn’t right about that hair type, and you keep ignoring all evidence to the contrary (and go on some strange tangent about sexual selection and Marilyn Monroe.)

    Now you resort to a girl who shaved her hair, a behavior near-universally associated with mental instability (your stand in for curly/kinky hair, I’m guessing) and considered very unattractive in women vs. Jennifer Aniston as an example of how preference for “long straight silky hair!” is inherently more attractive. Sure.

    I never said anything about those girls and that look being evidence of autism (another one of your weird accusations), it was based on your behavior and strange ideas, which you’ve exhibited here (and continue to exhibit) and elsewhere.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sean
    As mentioned in the paper, actresses are in competition with each other in the same way that women are when there is a shortage of husbands, and Monroe had to alter her appearance to be selected. Surely you can see the relevance now. It is true that there have been hairstyle fashions inconsistent with the idea that long straight silky hair is best, but I think the long straight hair look for girls is the one that is overwhelmingly found in relevant situations such as nightclubs, where young women go to meet eligible men. I mean you can protest that there was a fashion for ugg boots and ponchos but clubbing girls are in high heels (which makes their posterior protrude), skimpy tops, short skirts and long hair
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  112. Michelle says:
    @Jm8
    "I’m not really sure black Africans can grow their hair long by European standards, most of the big untamed Afros seem to be on African American women."

    I have not found this. If true, it probably reflects (current) differences in style preference rather than ability. Very long dreadlocks can also be seen on blacks, particularly on Afro-Caribbeans including men. Afro-Caribbeans islanders in general (in the English and French Caribbean at least) are more purely African than American blacks(Both are predominantly African).

    Often, Black women wish to grow their hair long but they also want it straightened. Harsh chemicals cause the hair to break off. The longer it gets the more chances there are to have overlapped the straightening chemicals causing breakage. This is the reason some Black women have for not being able to grow their hair long. Also, their hair may be much longer than it appears. Curly hair looks long when it is wet but springs up when dry making it appear shorter.

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  113. Sean says:

    Melanesians have unique mutation for the blond hair sometimes found in them. The other blonde and red hair mutations are the European ones. Melanesians’ hair is not long and straight though, so according to Peter’s hypothesis it is unlikely to be due to the same pressures as Asians and Europeans’ mainly long straight hair, with Europeans being competitively silky, in addition to being blonde, red or golden. I think it is now accepted that the European hair colour mutations originated in Europe, there is certainly no argument that hair colour is most concentratedly diverse in Europe and the long straight silky hair look is a European natural look, and one that women worldwide tend to aspire to. Of course there are passing fashions, as with clothes, but the enduring hair look for women concerned to look sexually attractive is long and straight.

    These anti essentialist arguments are always the same. If someone says women are shorter than men (in support of to idea that in evolutionary time being tall has been more useful in a reproductive fitness sense for men) we get protests that some women are taller than most men, as if that disposed of the point that women are taller than men. The San women have large buttocks and the fact that some San men have large buttocks does not reduce the likelihood that large buttocks are for reproductive fitness and are found in San because San men were attracted to the woman with the largest backside, and in that particular environment where sexual selection pressure on women (ie shortage of husbands) existed, genes for the type of hair that attracted the men spread through the population.

    In polygyny, which has no shortage of husbands, there could not be sexual selection of women’s hair, but that does not mean that men did not find the long straight hair attractive until it appeared. I have no idea whether Nikki Minaj is popular with white men but her hairstyles are not natural hair they are is similar to the hair of the average party girl in Europe, which is ler often boosted with extensions, because they want the longest hair. It is a fact that white women increasingly get backside boosting operations so they seem to be aspiring to a look that is inherently attractive to men worldwide, whether or not women of their race posses it. There was such a thing as the bustle in Victorian times

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    For the last time, Nikki Minaj is not popular among most white men. That's just a fact. You can make your argument without repeatedly resorting to dubious assertions like this. As far as Minaj's hair goes, yes it's artificial and designed to mimic the straight hair of white women. But that alone does not make her attractive to most white men, for the same reason that putting lipstick on a pig still leaves you with a pig.

    When is the last time that pop culture reflected the tastes and preferences of white men? Or do you suppose that white men just really like seeing white men portrayed as villains and buffoons and minorities as heroes and moral exemplars and the romantic interests of white women?

    White women also increasingly get tattoos, and not too long ago aspired to be as thin as possible and constantly worried about their butts being too big. We're no longer in homogeneous environments. We're increasingly in mixed environments in which white male tastes and preferences no longer predominate. Consequently, the selective pressures that women try to respond to and that get them to do things like backside boosting operations are longer dominated by white male tastes and preferences. And if Peter's theories are correct, we know that sexual selection of women driven by while males does not generate the steatopygia that's aspired to in the increasingly mixed social environment.
    , @Miterse_
    It's way more than "sometimes", and it's every hair color found in eurasians and more. Great way to downplay that inconvenient fact though. Peter's claim that "all melanesians have extensive austronesian" admixture is impossible.

    Aside from that, your posts fall into everything I've repeatedly criticized you for once again (and more, but I'm not going to bother with everything else)- your conflation of relative length of hair with absolute length of hair ("since curly hair doesn't grow in this way, that means it's literally shorter and is incapable of growing to significant degree"), ignoring every single counter-example brought forth that women worldwide have not always fixated on "long, silky, bone straight, completely visible, as long as possible hair!" as the ideal (and especially among east africans and nearly all non-africans with that hair) and waving off everything to the contrary as "passing fads" etc. There's really no point in continuing to argue you on this. You've seemingly long seen Peter's theories as the ultimate guide to understanding human evolution and more, and find it very hard to admit when he's wrong or inaccurate on various points and will go to absurd lengths to defend them, all the while often making his ideas completely bizarre and incomprehensible in the process.

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  114. Sean says:
    @Anonymous
    I'm sure it appeals to her fans, who seem to be mainly black, not white men, in contrast to Taylor Swift, who does not have a large bottom and whose fan base is mainly white. You keep intimating that white men are huge fans of Nicki Minaj, which simply isn't the case. Perhaps you are a big fan of Minaj and prefer large bottoms and like Minaj for that reason. That's great. But most white men aren't fans of Minaj and don't like large bottoms.

    The increasingly monocultural environment and its converging selection pressures which you cite as evidence for white male preference for large bottoms is bizarre in light of the fact that this same environment is one which is rapidly displacing whites, their cultures, their preferences, and their influence on selection pressures.

    Iggy Azalea and Rita Ora, look at them. Forget about the colour, what kind of hair has Swift got, and all female celebs got, the Kardashians got. Here they are with Minaj and Ariana Grande who has hair down to the small of her back. Swift’s hair looks 100% real to me I suppose she is going to keep it long.

    I think white women tend to have smaller buttocks but broader hips (skeletal structure). For what it is worth, I think Swift looks below average by European standards in the backside/body department, but maybe she is able to get away with being a star despite being rather underweight because she has a good head of hair. Britney Spears was committed to psychiatric ward not long after she shaved her head.

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  115. Sean says:
    @Miterse_
    All primates, and nearly all mammals, have straight or wavy hair. I don't know about their hair texture exactly, but it can either be coarse or non-coarse (and coarseness of hair isn't inextricable with curliness, as asians clearly attest, or "silkiness", another term you've been throwing around.) The hair of most other primates is short in an absolute sense and not comparable to kinky hair in humans, which is "short" only in a relative sense- primate hair generally stops growing at a certain length, whereas kinky hair can keep growing but appears as "shorter" because it curls. I am not going to repeat what I've been saying about that aesthetic value, and the reason it grows "shorter" in that way isn't comparable at all to primates. Nevermind there's plenty of primates that grow long hair- Thirdeye pointed out the Hamadryas baboon, another long haired primate, and even it's head hair isn't really curly, just frizzier.

    There is no real basis to saying kinky/curly hair is ancestral, and I'm surprised you'd even go to this length.

    "You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe."

    No, I was talking exclusively about hair texture. Reread what I've said about this. I will say your comparison of blue hair to red hair is strange because no mammal exhibits blue hair naturally.

    Out of curiosity, why do you think hair color is so diverse in among melanesians, ranging from australian aborigines to new guineans and people on the edges of melanesia, including red hair and two-toned hair colors absent in eurasians?

    "The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker."

    That's different from you claiming all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture. There is absolutely no reason to believe all melanesians have extensive austronesian admixture when they by and large, even in the most isolated regions, have similar, distinct physical features, very different from austronesians, which you didn't answer. The solomon islanders I pointed out have high frequencies of blonde hair, and skin and facial features distinct from austronesians. I doubt their straighter hair came from the latter.

    I know there are parts of the pacific with considerably mixed austronesian-melanesian populations, but is your second link implying all polynesians mixed and carry significant admixture from melanesians? They're generally clearly distinct from melanesians. Few austronesians have anything other than black hair, and their hair is usually straight/wavy. I've never seen austronesians with kinky hair unless it's a clearly admixed population. Or many of the other features found commonly in melanesians

    "Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others."

    Sorry, but I made it clear my frustrations with Sean, and I have seen him exhibit this behavior elsewhere. It would be helpful if you could let him know he should stop engaging in what he seems to often do.

    Sean: Hair color novelty exists in other caucasoid peoples and even in melanesians. Peter claims novelty effects led to the greater diversity of not just hair and eye color, but also hair texture in northern and eastern europeans (which isn't as great as the diversity in other caucasoids) while at the same time claiming curly hair is less attractive than "long, silky, straight hair" or whatever other inaccurate, awkward terms you have for straight, eurasian hair. Peter by most every piece of evidence isn't right about that hair type, and you keep ignoring all evidence to the contrary (and go on some strange tangent about sexual selection and Marilyn Monroe.)

    Now you resort to a girl who shaved her hair, a behavior near-universally associated with mental instability (your stand in for curly/kinky hair, I'm guessing) and considered very unattractive in women vs. Jennifer Aniston as an example of how preference for "long straight silky hair!" is inherently more attractive. Sure.

    I never said anything about those girls and that look being evidence of autism (another one of your weird accusations), it was based on your behavior and strange ideas, which you've exhibited here (and continue to exhibit) and elsewhere.

    As mentioned in the paper, actresses are in competition with each other in the same way that women are when there is a shortage of husbands, and Monroe had to alter her appearance to be selected. Surely you can see the relevance now. It is true that there have been hairstyle fashions inconsistent with the idea that long straight silky hair is best, but I think the long straight hair look for girls is the one that is overwhelmingly found in relevant situations such as nightclubs, where young women go to meet eligible men. I mean you can protest that there was a fashion for ugg boots and ponchos but clubbing girls are in high heels (which makes their posterior protrude), skimpy tops, short skirts and long hair

    Read More
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  116. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    Melanesians have unique mutation for the blond hair sometimes found in them. The other blonde and red hair mutations are the European ones. Melanesians' hair is not long and straight though, so according to Peter's hypothesis it is unlikely to be due to the same pressures as Asians and Europeans' mainly long straight hair, with Europeans being competitively silky, in addition to being blonde, red or golden. I think it is now accepted that the European hair colour mutations originated in Europe, there is certainly no argument that hair colour is most concentratedly diverse in Europe and the long straight silky hair look is a European natural look, and one that women worldwide tend to aspire to. Of course there are passing fashions, as with clothes, but the enduring hair look for women concerned to look sexually attractive is long and straight.


    These anti essentialist arguments are always the same. If someone says women are shorter than men (in support of to idea that in evolutionary time being tall has been more useful in a reproductive fitness sense for men) we get protests that some women are taller than most men, as if that disposed of the point that women are taller than men. The San women have large buttocks and the fact that some San men have large buttocks does not reduce the likelihood that large buttocks are for reproductive fitness and are found in San because San men were attracted to the woman with the largest backside, and in that particular environment where sexual selection pressure on women (ie shortage of husbands) existed, genes for the type of hair that attracted the men spread through the population.

    In polygyny, which has no shortage of husbands, there could not be sexual selection of women's hair, but that does not mean that men did not find the long straight hair attractive until it appeared. I have no idea whether Nikki Minaj is popular with white men but her hairstyles are not natural hair they are is similar to the hair of the average party girl in Europe, which is ler often boosted with extensions, because they want the longest hair. It is a fact that white women increasingly get backside boosting operations so they seem to be aspiring to a look that is inherently attractive to men worldwide, whether or not women of their race posses it. There was such a thing as the bustle in Victorian times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustle#/media/File:Darwin_sexual_caricature.gif

    For the last time, Nikki Minaj is not popular among most white men. That’s just a fact. You can make your argument without repeatedly resorting to dubious assertions like this. As far as Minaj’s hair goes, yes it’s artificial and designed to mimic the straight hair of white women. But that alone does not make her attractive to most white men, for the same reason that putting lipstick on a pig still leaves you with a pig.

    When is the last time that pop culture reflected the tastes and preferences of white men? Or do you suppose that white men just really like seeing white men portrayed as villains and buffoons and minorities as heroes and moral exemplars and the romantic interests of white women?

    White women also increasingly get tattoos, and not too long ago aspired to be as thin as possible and constantly worried about their butts being too big. We’re no longer in homogeneous environments. We’re increasingly in mixed environments in which white male tastes and preferences no longer predominate. Consequently, the selective pressures that women try to respond to and that get them to do things like backside boosting operations are longer dominated by white male tastes and preferences. And if Peter’s theories are correct, we know that sexual selection of women driven by while males does not generate the steatopygia that’s aspired to in the increasingly mixed social environment.

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    • Replies: @Sean
    All other things being equal, men prefer a woman with a relatively big backside, and the bone structure of the hips is broader in European women I believe, while African women seem to have narrow hips but big buttocks. African or European type backsides considered attractive don't look like Swift's the last time I looked so, she probably does not trade on sex appeal very much. I don't know why big rears look different around the world, but the first European women probably had backsides that looked more like San or Black Africans' and altered under selection over time.
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  117. Sean says:
    @Anonymous
    For the last time, Nikki Minaj is not popular among most white men. That's just a fact. You can make your argument without repeatedly resorting to dubious assertions like this. As far as Minaj's hair goes, yes it's artificial and designed to mimic the straight hair of white women. But that alone does not make her attractive to most white men, for the same reason that putting lipstick on a pig still leaves you with a pig.

    When is the last time that pop culture reflected the tastes and preferences of white men? Or do you suppose that white men just really like seeing white men portrayed as villains and buffoons and minorities as heroes and moral exemplars and the romantic interests of white women?

    White women also increasingly get tattoos, and not too long ago aspired to be as thin as possible and constantly worried about their butts being too big. We're no longer in homogeneous environments. We're increasingly in mixed environments in which white male tastes and preferences no longer predominate. Consequently, the selective pressures that women try to respond to and that get them to do things like backside boosting operations are longer dominated by white male tastes and preferences. And if Peter's theories are correct, we know that sexual selection of women driven by while males does not generate the steatopygia that's aspired to in the increasingly mixed social environment.

    All other things being equal, men prefer a woman with a relatively big backside, and the bone structure of the hips is broader in European women I believe, while African women seem to have narrow hips but big buttocks. African or European type backsides considered attractive don’t look like Swift’s the last time I looked so, she probably does not trade on sex appeal very much. I don’t know why big rears look different around the world, but the first European women probably had backsides that looked more like San or Black Africans’ and altered under selection over time.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    "Relatively" is almost meaningless here in the context of racial and group variations in an increasingly heterogeneous environment, variations which arose in homogeneous environments.

    Yeah, I'm sure Swift's popularity among white men has nothing to do with sex appeal. I'm sure if Nikki Minaj or Rosie O'Donnell performed the same songs, they'd be just as popular among white men.

    Rears that differ in size around the world aren't "big rears [that] look different around the world". They differ in size, not just in appearance. If women with steatopygia were altered under sexual selection over time to look like contemporary European women, then that selection reduced the size of buttocks.
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  118. Truth says:

    For the last time, Nikki Minaj is not popular among most white men.

    When was the “Arbiter for The Global Opinion of White Men” Election held. What was the voting eligibility?

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If you think that most white men are enamored of Nikki Minaj, why not just say so openly? Is it because you realize how ridiculous that sounds?
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  119. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sean
    All other things being equal, men prefer a woman with a relatively big backside, and the bone structure of the hips is broader in European women I believe, while African women seem to have narrow hips but big buttocks. African or European type backsides considered attractive don't look like Swift's the last time I looked so, she probably does not trade on sex appeal very much. I don't know why big rears look different around the world, but the first European women probably had backsides that looked more like San or Black Africans' and altered under selection over time.

    “Relatively” is almost meaningless here in the context of racial and group variations in an increasingly heterogeneous environment, variations which arose in homogeneous environments.

    Yeah, I’m sure Swift’s popularity among white men has nothing to do with sex appeal. I’m sure if Nikki Minaj or Rosie O’Donnell performed the same songs, they’d be just as popular among white men.

    Rears that differ in size around the world aren’t “big rears [that] look different around the world”. They differ in size, not just in appearance. If women with steatopygia were altered under sexual selection over time to look like contemporary European women, then that selection reduced the size of buttocks.

    Read More
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  120. Miterse_ says:
    @Sean
    Melanesians have unique mutation for the blond hair sometimes found in them. The other blonde and red hair mutations are the European ones. Melanesians' hair is not long and straight though, so according to Peter's hypothesis it is unlikely to be due to the same pressures as Asians and Europeans' mainly long straight hair, with Europeans being competitively silky, in addition to being blonde, red or golden. I think it is now accepted that the European hair colour mutations originated in Europe, there is certainly no argument that hair colour is most concentratedly diverse in Europe and the long straight silky hair look is a European natural look, and one that women worldwide tend to aspire to. Of course there are passing fashions, as with clothes, but the enduring hair look for women concerned to look sexually attractive is long and straight.


    These anti essentialist arguments are always the same. If someone says women are shorter than men (in support of to idea that in evolutionary time being tall has been more useful in a reproductive fitness sense for men) we get protests that some women are taller than most men, as if that disposed of the point that women are taller than men. The San women have large buttocks and the fact that some San men have large buttocks does not reduce the likelihood that large buttocks are for reproductive fitness and are found in San because San men were attracted to the woman with the largest backside, and in that particular environment where sexual selection pressure on women (ie shortage of husbands) existed, genes for the type of hair that attracted the men spread through the population.

    In polygyny, which has no shortage of husbands, there could not be sexual selection of women's hair, but that does not mean that men did not find the long straight hair attractive until it appeared. I have no idea whether Nikki Minaj is popular with white men but her hairstyles are not natural hair they are is similar to the hair of the average party girl in Europe, which is ler often boosted with extensions, because they want the longest hair. It is a fact that white women increasingly get backside boosting operations so they seem to be aspiring to a look that is inherently attractive to men worldwide, whether or not women of their race posses it. There was such a thing as the bustle in Victorian times https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bustle#/media/File:Darwin_sexual_caricature.gif

    It’s way more than “sometimes”, and it’s every hair color found in eurasians and more. Great way to downplay that inconvenient fact though. Peter’s claim that “all melanesians have extensive austronesian” admixture is impossible.

    Aside from that, your posts fall into everything I’ve repeatedly criticized you for once again (and more, but I’m not going to bother with everything else)- your conflation of relative length of hair with absolute length of hair (“since curly hair doesn’t grow in this way, that means it’s literally shorter and is incapable of growing to significant degree”), ignoring every single counter-example brought forth that women worldwide have not always fixated on “long, silky, bone straight, completely visible, as long as possible hair!” as the ideal (and especially among east africans and nearly all non-africans with that hair) and waving off everything to the contrary as “passing fads” etc. There’s really no point in continuing to argue you on this. You’ve seemingly long seen Peter’s theories as the ultimate guide to understanding human evolution and more, and find it very hard to admit when he’s wrong or inaccurate on various points and will go to absurd lengths to defend them, all the while often making his ideas completely bizarre and incomprehensible in the process.

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  121. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth

    For the last time, Nikki Minaj is not popular among most white men.
     
    When was the "Arbiter for The Global Opinion of White Men" Election held. What was the voting eligibility?

    If you think that most white men are enamored of Nikki Minaj, why not just say so openly? Is it because you realize how ridiculous that sounds?

    Read More
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  122. Truth says:

    OK, I think most HETROSEXUAL white men on the planet would LOVE to pork Nikki Minaj. Just like Regis Philbin would.

    Was that so hard?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Well apparently it is very hard, because you still can't bring yourself to say it.
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  123. ASD says: • Website

    Anthropological articles about evolution often seem to me to lean too hard toward “adaptationist” arguments for human variation (e.g., see Gould and Lewontin’s “spandrels” article). In other words, everything that has diverged rapidly in our species has occurred because of selection, and specifically because of selection for the particular trait under consideration. The arguments in this article as well as those in the comments regarding the selective benefits of long vs. nappy hair strike me as being pretty ad hoc. Isn’t it more likely that small effective population sizes in the early human diaspora increased the power of genetic drift to alter traits affecting appearance? Drift can work quickly when populations experience frequent bottlenecks, caused by emigration, disease, etc. Barring that, the next most likely scenario is that traits that produced visible phenotypes were selected because they were side-effects of more system-wide physiological changes; for example “domestication syndrome” selection for neotenous traits in increasingly urban Eurasians.

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  124. @joe webb
    what has happened to the Osmosis guy, back as Mytsery?

    I notice on the new Girardi article that all? comments appear to accept that the false-flaggers are hopelessly out to lunch, etc.

    Joe Webb

    You’re a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone’s ass. Stfu & sit down,

    The narcissistic self centered attitude of the older generations is why there are so many kikes muzzies & kike lite christians running around.

    Ok, we like blonde women so we’ll fuck them then what?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth

    You’re a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone’s ass. Stfu & sit down,
     
    And give 20 year old girls wet panties by talking about Margaret Sanger in the airport!
    , @anowow
    You should do live readings, maybe a podcast with a daily selection of your best work. Your flow of chauvinist sexually frustrated consciousness is pretty heady stuff. I only hope you are nowhere in the vicinity of young girls.
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  125. @Thirdeye
    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    Yes, and when Asians were exposed to western hair fashions they adopted them, even though they had to fight the natural tendencies of their hair to do it. The point is that hair aesthetics are culturally transmitted, not innate. Traditional Chinese men wore their hair in a long braid down the back. It wasn't considered feminine.

    Yes, seeing every Hindu woman in a traditional suit with a long braid is ‘western’

    See 1000s of ‘white’ women come back to their ancestral homeland of Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap is AIT.

    Maybe the real ‘Aryan invasion’ was hordes of women invading from England to Russia?

    After all, we did have polygny..

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    • Replies: @Thirdeye
    Japan is the best example of Asian women adopting western hairstyles. Even when Imperial Japan was hostile to the west, "mogals" (modern girls) were adopting western fashions.

    I don't doubt that Indian women have remained more traditional in their styles. They do not have the same social freedom to adopt non-traditional styles that women in east Asia do.
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  126. Thirdeye says:
    @singh.jatt
    Yes, seeing every Hindu woman in a traditional suit with a long braid is 'western'

    See 1000s of 'white' women come back to their ancestral homeland of Devi Danu & Rishi Kashyap is AIT.

    Maybe the real 'Aryan invasion' was hordes of women invading from England to Russia?

    After all, we did have polygny..

    Japan is the best example of Asian women adopting western hairstyles. Even when Imperial Japan was hostile to the west, “mogals” (modern girls) were adopting western fashions.

    I don’t doubt that Indian women have remained more traditional in their styles. They do not have the same social freedom to adopt non-traditional styles that women in east Asia do.

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    • Replies: @Miterse_
    I'm not sure what period of Imperial Japan you're referring to- in the Taisho period, anything other than straight hair was looked down upon.
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  127. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth
    OK, I think most HETROSEXUAL white men on the planet would LOVE to pork Nikki Minaj. Just like Regis Philbin would.

    Was that so hard?

    Well apparently it is very hard, because you still can’t bring yourself to say it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Truth
    Dude, reading is fundamental. And I don't use sissy words like "enamored."
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  128. helena says:

    The comment about ape hair is interesting.

    There is little-to-no support for the Aquatic Ape hypothesis, set somewhere between 2-4mya. But imagine Lake Victoria 200kya. Lots of extended family goups living around the shores, living off the fish in LV and spending their recreation time in LV. For many thousands of years.

    What would be useful for such a life – tightly coiled head hair, deep brown hairless bodies?

    As folks moved up into Asia those stable environmental pressures dissipated thus throwing up new allelic possibilities. And, as reader above points out, other genetic processes came into play. Bottlenecks, Denisovans, Neanderthals all contributed to throwing up new possibilities – red hair maybe.

    And with the new possibilities came sexual selection effects also. So the two ideas of transitioning from straight-ape to curly-african and from there to straight-silky-Asian and straight/curly-silky/coarse-multi-coloured-European are not mutually exclusive.

    Between apes and hair-straightening a la Jennifer Aniston, Peter’s hypothesis is credible.

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  129. Truth says:
    @singh.jatt
    You're a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone's ass. Stfu & sit down,

    The narcissistic self centered attitude of the older generations is why there are so many kikes muzzies & kike lite christians running around.

    Ok, we like blonde women so we'll fuck them then what?

    You’re a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone’s ass. Stfu & sit down,

    And give 20 year old girls wet panties by talking about Margaret Sanger in the airport!

    Read More
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  130. Truth says:
    @Anonymous
    Well apparently it is very hard, because you still can't bring yourself to say it.

    Dude, reading is fundamental. And I don’t use sissy words like “enamored.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    You still haven't said it. Why is it so hard?
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  131. anowow says:
    @singh.jatt
    You're a 74 year old man, who thinks he can kick anyone's ass. Stfu & sit down,

    The narcissistic self centered attitude of the older generations is why there are so many kikes muzzies & kike lite christians running around.

    Ok, we like blonde women so we'll fuck them then what?

    You should do live readings, maybe a podcast with a daily selection of your best work. Your flow of chauvinist sexually frustrated consciousness is pretty heady stuff. I only hope you are nowhere in the vicinity of young girls.

    Read More
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  132. Miterse_ says:
    @Thirdeye
    Japan is the best example of Asian women adopting western hairstyles. Even when Imperial Japan was hostile to the west, "mogals" (modern girls) were adopting western fashions.

    I don't doubt that Indian women have remained more traditional in their styles. They do not have the same social freedom to adopt non-traditional styles that women in east Asia do.

    I’m not sure what period of Imperial Japan you’re referring to- in the Taisho period, anything other than straight hair was looked down upon.

    Read More
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  133. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Truth
    Dude, reading is fundamental. And I don't use sissy words like "enamored."

    You still haven’t said it. Why is it so hard?

    Read More
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  134. Jm8 says:
    @Miterse
    Braided and dreaded styles are in a sense straighter. "Straighter" eurasian-type hair wasn't seen, but hair styles very different from afros and outward-growing styles were most common. They have also been known to use things like heated rocks to straighten hair.

    “They have also been known to use things like heated rocks to straighten hair.”

    This was uncommon in traditional African cultures. Lye from ash(which had other uses) and possibly metallic heat straightening implements, since most African cultures had had metallurgy for a while, could have been used but were not.

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  135. AnAnon says:
    @Peter Frost
    I don’t know why you’re still calling straight hair “derived”, when every single primate we know of has straight hair, along with most mammals.

    Long, straight, silky hair is not a holdover from other primates. It's a derived trait. There isn't even a superficial similarity with the hair of other primates .

    This doesn’t really answer what I’m pointing out.

    You were asking why long, straight, silky hair is found throughout Eurasia (and other populations of Eurasian origin), whereas hair color has diversified within a much smaller area, mostly northern and eastern Europe. Why is this if both have the same cause, i.e., an increase in the pressure of sexual selection on women?

    There seem to be two reasons:

    1. In the case of long, straight, silky hair, the genetic potential already existed in Africans, but only in newborn infants. There was thus little impediment, genetically speaking, to the extension of this infant trait to all age groups.

    In the case of new hair and eye colors, time had to elapse for new, promising mutations to come along. Why did red hair evolve but not blue hair? I don't think it's because blue hair would be less popular. It's probably because blue hair requires a mutation that is several steps away from anything that currently exists in humans.

    2. Color polymorphisms, such as the palette of European hair and eye colors, do exist in other animals, but they're uncommon. When sexual selection is responsible, they seem to arise under conditions of intense mate competition where the novelty effect can make the difference between success and failure.

    Why do look like this if they all have extensive austronesian admixture?

    The extent of admixture varies, but there are very few Melanesians, if any, with no Austronesian admixture at all. Merriwether et al (1999) used a single genetic marker of Austronesian ancestry, and they found that most Melanesians had it, the only exceptions being individuals in remote and/or inland locations. And that was just one marker.

    https://www.researchgate.net/profile/David_Merriwether/publication/12783056_Mitochondrial_DNA_variation_is_an_indicator_of_Austronesian_influence_in_Island_Melanesia/links/0deec5230bbf5ab673000000.pdf

    Some Melanesian groups speak Austronesian-derived languages, but apparently Most Austronesians (like Polynesians and Micronesians) and Melanesians are not close genetically.

    You need to read up on the subject (see above). There is also extensive Melanesian admixture in Polynesians.

    All Polynesian Y chromosomes can be traced back to Melanesia, although some of these Y-chromosome types originated in Asia. Together with other genetic and cultural evidence, we propose a new model of Polynesian origins that we call the ‘slow-boat’ model: Polynesian ancestors did originate from Asia/Taiwan but did not move rapidly through Melanesia; rather, they interacted with and mixed extensively with Melanesians, leaving behind their genes and incorporating many Melanesian genes before colonising the Pacific.
     
    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S096098220000734X

    Nappy hair buffers the scalp from the radiation in much the same way and the further from the scalp the better per the inverse square law.

    I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.

    No. I favor the hypothesis that straight hair, as with other primates, was first.

    As I said above, the similarity isn't even superficial.

    There is also nothing that constrains the timeframe of human hair evolution to 60,000 years or less. The south Asian coastal migration was well underway by that time. The Toba survivors were already on the east coast of Asia.

    The descendants of the original hunter-gatherers of South and Southeast Asia (Andaman Islanders, Semang, Aeta) have short, frizzy hair. You still haven't answered why relaxation of selection for short, frizzy hair would lead to such a dramatic lengthening and straightening of head hair.

    Does ‘apron’ still occur with Khoisan women ?

    It still occurs but the subject is taboo. Some writers say it's a result of genital manipulation.

    Objectives: Labia minora elongation is a female genital modification in which some women in certain linguistic groups from Africa engage. One of the purposes is to enhance sexual pleasure for their male partners. Methods: The literature has been reviewed to describe how labia minora elongation serves for women to increase their sexual pleasure, both as an autoerotic method and in the context of homoerotic and heterosexual relationships. Results and Conclusions: This aspect deserves to be investigated, as there are narratives from some women practitioners of labial elongation that this practice might contribute to improve the sexual health of some of the women who engage in it.
     
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/19317611.2014.910585

    Some Asian women put in great effort and expense to make their straight hair wavy and full of body for the same reason some black women straighten their hair: conformity to western beauty standards fostered by the reach of western media and commerce.

    Long female hair has been praised in Chinese, Japanese, and South Asian literature for a very long time, long before Westerners came along.

    you seem to have this aspie fixation on propping and defending near everything Peter says, because he’s seemingly your ultimate authority on human evolution, even when it’s blatantly wrong, like here, and because you’re likely on the autism spectrum.

    Please see my comment to Joe Webb. If you want other people to respect your opinion, you should show respect for those of others.

    “I guess men go bald because their brains are less consequential.” – How well does nappy hair trap heat? thermal dissipation is another big issue for the brain, so baldness wouldn’t necessarily be a negative.

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  136. Did Neanderthals or Denisovans have long hair? If so, did they independently evolve it or did they introduce it into our gene pool?

    If it came by way of Neanderthal, there could have been an initial evolutionary advantage that we don’t see in modern long haired hunter-gatherers.

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