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Turkey Duped the US, and ISIS Reaps Rewards
But the real losers are the Kurds, the only force to have effectively resisted the jihadis in Syria
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The disastrous miscalculation made by the United States in signing a military agreement with Turkey at the expense of the Kurds becomes daily more apparent. In return for the use of Incirlik Air Base just north of the Syrian border, the US betrayed the Syrian Kurds who have so far been its most effective ally against Islamic State (ISIS, also known as Daesh). In return for this deal signed on 22 July, the US got greater military cooperation from Turkey, but it swiftly emerged that Ankara’s real target was the Kurds in Turkey, Syria and Iraq. Action against ISIS was almost an afterthought, and it was hit by only three Turkish airstrikes, compared to 300 against the bases of the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK).

President Barack Obama has assembled a grand coalition of 60 states, supposedly committed to combating ISIS, but the only forces on the ground to win successive victories against the jihadis over the past year are the ruling Syrian-Kurdish Party (PYD) and its People’s Protection Units (YPG). Supported by US air power, the YPG heroically defeated the ISIS attempt to capture the border city of Kobani during a four-and-a-half month siege that ended in January, and seized the ISIS crossing point into Turkey at Tal Abyad in June.

The advance of the Syrian Kurds, who now hold half of the 550-mile Syrian-Kurdish border, was the main external reason why Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan offered the US closer cooperation, including the use of Incirlik, which had previously been denied. The domestic impulse for an offensive by the Turkish state against the Kurds also took place in June when the pro-Kurdish People’s Democratic Party (HDP) won 13 per cent of the vote in the Turkish general election, denying Mr Erdogan’s Justice and Development Party (AKP) a majority for the first time since 2002. By strongly playing the Turkish nationalist and anti-Kurdish card, Mr Erdogan hopes to win back that majority in a second election on 1 November.

There are signs of a growing understanding in Washington that the US was duped by the Turks, or at best its negotiators deceived themselves when they agreed their bargain with Ankara. Senior US military officers are anonymously protesting in the US media they did not know that Turkey was pretending to be going after ISIS when in practice it was planning an offensive against its 18 million-strong Kurdish minority.

Further evidence of misgivings in Washington came last week with an article in The New York Times entitled “America’s Dangerous Bargain with Turkey” by Eric S Edelman, former US ambassador to Turkey and under-secretary for defence policy, who is normally regarded as a neo-con of good standing. He accuses Mr Erdogan of unleashing “a new wave of repression aimed at Kurds in Turkey, which risks plunging the country into civil war” and he goes on to suggest that this might help the AKP win back its majority, but will certainly undermine the fight against ISIS. He says: “By disrupting logistics and communications between the PKK in Iraq and the PYD in Syria, Turkey is weakening the most effective ground force fighting the Islamic State in Syria: the Kurds.”

In fact, there is growing evidence that the Turkish government has gone even further than that in weakening US allies opposing ISIS in Syria, Arab as well as Kurd. For several years the US has been trying to build up a moderate force of Syrian rebels who are able to fight both ISIS and the Syrian government in Damascus. The CIA-run initiative has not been going well because the Syrian military opposition these days is almost entirely dominated by ISIS, which holds half Syria, the al-Qaeda affiliate Jabhat al-Nusra, and the equally sectarian Sunni Ahrar al-Sham.

But in July, the US plan to create such a moderate force was humiliatingly knocked on the head when Jabhat al-Nusra attacked and kidnapped many of this US-trained force as they entered Syria from Turkey. It now seems certain that Nusra had been tipped off by Turkish intelligence about the movements of the US-backed unit known as “Division 30”. Turkey apparently did this because it does not want the US to have its own surrogate in Syria. According to an investigation by Mitchell Prothero of the McClatchy news organisation, citing many Syrian sources in Turkey, the Turkish motive was to destroy the US-run movement, which was intended to number 15,000 fighters targeting ISIS. Its disintegration would leave the US with no alternative but to train Turkish-sponsored rebel groups whose primary aim is to topple Syria’s President Bashar al-Assad. The article quotes a Syrian rebel commander in the Turkish city of Sanliurfa, 30 miles north of the Syrian border, as saying that the Turks “don’t want anything bad to happen to their allies – Nusra and Ahrar al-Sham – along the border, and they know that both the Americans and the Syrian people will eventually recognise that there’s no difference between groups such as Nusra, Ahrar and Daesh.”

How does ISIS itself assess the new US-Turkish accord? Its fighters may find it more difficult to cross the Syrian-Turkish border, though even this is uncertain. But it will be relieved that its most effective enemy in Syria, the PYD, will in future be restrained by Turkish pressure. Its PKK parent organisation is coming under sustained attack from Turkish forces in south-east Turkey and in the Qandil Mountains of Iraq.

The destruction of one of the most famous temples at Palmyra by ISIS last week, and the decapitation of the site’s most famous archaeologist a few days earlier, are a show of strength and acts of defiance very much in the tradition of the Islamic State. The aim is to dominate the news agenda, which can easily be done by some spectacular atrocity, and thereby say, in effect, “you may hate what you are seeing, but there is nothing you can do to stop it”.


And this is demonstrably the case not just in Syria but in Iraq. ISIS captured Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province in Iraq on 17 May and Palmyra five days later on 22 May. In neither case has there been an effective counter-attack. ISIS is still winning victories where it counts, and faces no real threat to its existence.

The US campaign against ISIS is failing and the US-Turkish deal will not reverse that failure and may make it more complete. Why did US negotiators allow themselves to be deceived, if that is what happened. No doubt the US air force was over-eager for the use of Incirlik so it would not have to fly its planes from Jordan, Bahrain or carriers in the Gulf.

But there is a deeper reason for America’s inability to confront ISIS successfully. Ever since 9/11, the US has wanted to combat al-Qaeda-type movements, but without disturbing its close relations with Sunni states such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the Gulf monarchies. But it is these same allies that have fostered, tolerated or failed to act against the al-Qaeda clones, which explains their continuing success.

(Republished from The Independent by permission of author or representative)
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: ISIS, Kurds, Turkey 
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  1. KA says:

    But there is a deeper reason for America’s inability to confront ISIS successfully. Ever since 9/11, the US has wanted to combat al-Qaeda-type movements, but without disturbing its close relations with Sunni states such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the Gulf monarchies. But it is these same allies that have fostered, tolerated or failed to act against the al-Qaeda clones, which explains their continuing success.

    This is patently false. America has birthed Al Quida and later ISIS
    Following 911 US blamed Muslim countries without blaming itself and without admitting the fact that none of those countries who supported Al Quida wouldn’t have done so without America’s explicit support and requirements. Is it not interesting to see that none of America’s enemies like Iraq, Libya,Syria ever supported Afghan fighters and AlQuida?
    Following 911, America not only started blaming those countries but was actually threatening them ( paradoxically US was targeting both its friends and enemies) to destroy one way or another .
    Syrian gambit started more or less immediately .Very soon Somalia . Syrian and Lebanese equilibrium was destroyed . Israel started attacking Syria .US pushed for continued war in Lebanon in 2006 . – These activities bolstered the claims ,of those who would be ready to join IS later , that America was planning to destroy Islam . Some officials in US administration actually said that .Failing in Lebanon ,US started new ways to destabilize Syria culminating in the gun running from Libya ,training of ” moderates” in Jordan and eventual vetting by MC Cain .
    Saudi Arab couldn’t get any traction when it tried to bring Fatah and Hamas together and also when it tried to restart the peace process in 2006 or 2002 . All these countries could see was encirclement of their borders by America plus Israel and threat of war in order to destabilize what was left of . They did what they had to survive- go along with US plan , but never losing sight of the paradigm, America was developing . They concluded that the only reason America was creating chaos despite knowing it’s ill effects on American interest was to obey Israel and was to follow the neocon. It must have not only infuriated them but also made them hate and despise America in some way .
    Anybody with some modicum of knowledge would have understood the fact that decades old consensus among different sects and tribes and religion in Levant could be easily breached but it only be ending with disastrous results .
    This plan started in Iraq. Iraqi citizen Sunni Shia Kurd – all welcomed to some extent and waited to see America succeed. But very soon ,first Sunni later Shia and latest to the list Kurds ,came to see America was not interested in not building but destroying what they are left with .
    In this deadly mixture where both the government and the citizen come to experience common threat from outside who has become difficult to understand ( America is not following self interest but creating chaos that only benefits Israel ) ,strange cross currents and shady dealings would develop.
    Pakistan also would suffer from corrupting relationship between its military and US and from drone attacks . US also would thwart every attempt at negotiation among Taliban and Afghan government . It would not allow the voice of Taliban supporters and sympathizers be heard in Afghanistan . This would create problem for Pakistan to maintain the balance . Again America wouldn’t address the existential threat these countries or the movements be experiencing .
    In the end, just as 911 was made possible from what happened in 1980 and again in 1991 ,so are the current mess with IS and aL Nusra made possible from what was sowed after 2003 against the wishes of the local and against the wishes of the elite ruler .

    If America wants to remove the threat of cancer like IS be gone for ever,it needs to clearly enunciate its interests,separate itself from local Israeli interests,guarantee the borders of Iraq,Turkey,Syria,and Pakistan and then start working the citizen ,NGO,military,and existing rulers for democratic election and for preserving democratic institution. To do that US first has to clean it own domestic political mess . It can’t anymore . Neither can Turkey or S Arab or Iraq.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  2. “Ever since 9/11, the US has wanted to combat al-Qaeda-type movements, but without disturbing its close relations with Sunni states such as Turkey, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and the Gulf monarchies. But it is these same allies that have fostered, tolerated or failed to act against the al-Qaeda clones, which explains their continuing success.”

    That’s putting it pretty mildly, given where they found Bin Laden – the major US allies have been Al Qaeda supporters, continue to be Al Qaeda supporters, and this was always pretty obvious to anyone brighter than George Bush. The US has never given sufficient priority to defeating Al Qaeda, preferring to go after the secular Arab dictatorships that aging Likudniks insist are the real threat.

  3. Sonic says:

    No – this comment is filled with conspiracy theories. The nation-states that exist in the Islamic world are specifically meant to recognize the world order that was established after World War 2 and divide the Muslims while putting the natural resources of the Muslim world into the hands of as few as possible. None of these phony rulers or their artificial borders were going to last…particularly after the spread of knowledge that the Internet and other contemporary technologies made possible (of course, fighting against imperialism and colonialism dates back well before the creation of even the first computer). The people were going to rise up sooner or later, whether collectively in street protests, or individually through guerrilla organizations. It was all a matter of who would have the greatest influence when this happened. The western democracies that prided themselves in liberty and freedom, ended up relying more and more on tyrants and police states. All while themselves becoming more and more repressive and authoritarian! That is where we are at in this moment (and Allah knows best).

    • Replies: @KA
  4. Sonic says:

    No Patrick – it’s not exactly like that. The US and its allies do NOT want a breakup of the post-World War 2 order. They do not want Iraq to be broken up – which is effectively what ISIS has done. In response to that, many from the Kurds desired to finally create their own state (which would of course, start with fighting and defeating ISIS). But not only does Turkey not want this, but neither does Iran, the US, or NATO. So after using certain Kurdish factions – the US betrayed them. Nothing new. Saddam was treated the same way. This is the pattern European imperial powers have followed for centuries!

    And really, how were the Kurds heroic when their victories could not have been achieved without the most powerful air force in the world today, along with the air power of 60 other nations!? The amount of military support given to the Kurds over the last year really is amazing, yet the best that they have achieved is that they have contained ISIS. These ethno-centric nationalists seem more like puppets and prostitutes as compared to heroes and warriors. Things would be even worse for them had ISIS not foolishly started its state-building project (after dividing its ranks and declaring a Khalifah) rather than continuing as a strictly fighting organization capable of morphing between guerrilla and conventional units depending on the circumstances. That would have given them the time necessary to build up a large enough Kurdish Islamic force to take over the Kurdish areas after the military defeat of the Peshmerga and other secular Kurdish forces. But ISIS wanted power and wanted it now. Kobani was a trap for ISIS set by the US.

    Now, the YPG may be pushed to side with Assad’s SAA as opposed to the Turkish backed FSA. The US cannot depend on the Kurds to conquer Arab areas (only defend Kurdish areas and some places which are mixed). Hence, the US knew that despite some battlefield victories – the secular Kurdish forces would never be able to defeat ISIS no matter how much air support was given to them.

    As for the conclusion of the above article, it is ridiculous to blame Turkey for not doing enough to combat ISIS. From Turkey’s point of view, the problem of ISIS was created by the US as a result of the miscalculation of initiating Gulf War 2 (never mind the prior decade in which bombs and sanctions devastated Iraq). Turkey was hesitant to join the force to overthrow Saddam back in 2003 in fact. Then, the Arab Spring uprisings caused Syria to implode (and this galvanized the Mujahid groups in Iraq). Turkey does not want an Arab Spring to sweep through its territory, nor does it want that territory to be broken up by a Kurdish independence movement.

    At the same time, the US sees in Turkey a liberal, secular democracy (even if it has become slightly more conservative under the AKP). It does not want to destabilize this, because such destabilization would lead to aspirations within Turkey to recreate the Ottoman Khalifah. That would undo almost a century of Kemalism/Ataturkism (which truly is one of the greatest victories the Western world ever had in the lands of Islam) in Turkey! Of course, the real reason this particular system in Turkey came about is the power of the military “deep” state (which the AKP has cracked down on). Supporters of that military deep state as well as other Turkish nationalists are even more anti-Kurdistan than the AKP. Still, Turkey remains the ideal model for the US and Europe to portray when dealing with the rest of the Islamic world.

    So the US and its allies used the Kurds, and now want to make clear that Kurdish aspirations will not be tolerated. The American military officials who are voicing their dismay on account of this simply don’t realize that this is how the US and the west have operated for centuries. It is imperial hubris as it always is. Turkey, KSA, Pakistan, and others have done a great deal to fight and contain al-Qaidah and those similar to or affiliated with them. But they can’t defeat them anymore than the US or the west can (unless these entities resort to genocide…which would have its own repercussions and blowback). For these allies to do any more would destabilize their own countries (which in some cases has already begun). That is what you get when you fight your own people for the sake, values, interests, money, and wars of others.

    Doesn’t Patrick realize that what he is asking these nations to do would lead to a situation even worse than what exists today (which is even worse than 10 or 20 years ago)? It is an imperialistic and interventionist mentality that always blames everyone else for the horrific mess that you yourself are primarily responsible for. In Britain, some people realize this and have abandoned the cloak of pride that leads to such positions and perspectives. Others continue on with such misguidance.

  5. The writer of this piece is an embedded “journalist” spread the lies of CIA and MI6 to fool you. The embedded ‘journalist’ cannot be trusted.

  6. The last paragraph sums up the problem perfectly. The US engaged in war profiteering and used the cover of the war on terror for wars of choice. ISIS is the perfect enemy for forever war. It is a repugnant entity that really can’t do anything to us in the US. If the US actually wanted to end the threat of terrorism it would have went after these Sunni regimes that fund and support these groups.

    Its hard to believe that the US wouldn’t know what Turkey’s true intentions was. Even if US policymakers weren’t enthusiastic about it it is hard to believe that they wouldn’t have realized that Turkey would take aim at the Kurds. I think its the Clean Break strategy and low risk war profiteering. Is the US going along with Turkey attacking the Kurds because it wanted access to Turkey’s air base?

    It looks like a trade to me.

  7. KA says:

    “The former commander of U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan has been quietly urging U.S. officials to consider using so-called moderate members of al Qaeda’s Nusra Front to fight ISIS in Syria, four sources familiar with the conversations, including one person who spoke to Petraeus directly, told The Daily Beast.”
    Petraeus has a secret list of ” moderate” bumble bees .
    God knows only how he keeps them in line how he sorts them out how he identifies them he he keeps them moderate ,how he prevents them from crossing the line over the dark side over to ISIS.
    Taliban is no longer a terroris org. Now Al Quida up for rebranding .
    ISIS shouldn’t despair . Neither should Turkey.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  8. Sonic says:

    KA – it’s called trying to use your enemies to fight your other enemies (since they are enemies of one another). That is a far cry from what you are saying or implying here. As has already been stated above, the Kurds were used and then replaced. The US tried to train its own force and import them into the Syrian conflict, but that didn’t succeed. So now they want to divide the groups that are already there. That won’t succeed either. Nusrah and ISIS are fighting one another for a variety of reasons. ISIS has declared itself a Khalifate and is demanding that all other groups give them their allegiance. That is a no compromise position. an-Nusrah rejects this declaration and considers ISIS to be modern-day khawarijites (a sect that Muslims are ordered to fight against according to the sources of their scriptures). All Petraeus is doing is trying to take advantage of this situation where his enemies are divided and fighting against one another. All after the many mission failures and strategic defeats that have occurred under his watch and during his participation or observation in the conflict that began in 2003 and continues on until today. Maybe he will again create a “surge” of some sort as a smokescreen and declare victory in the media and thereby give temporary satisfaction to the American electorate that lives and breathes in a culture of instant gratification. Then, a beautiful junior officer can write another biography about him and his “victory” (while they cheat on their spouses with one another). Eventually, it will all come crashing down as it is revealed that the terms “moderate” and “extremist” really only mean “ally” or “enemy”, and that many on the ground who are fighting with limited resources tactfully use outside powers to achieve their own goals. Before you know it, the whole of the Levant will return to Islam, while Petraeus and others begin yet another round of the blame game. That blame game has been going on in America since the time of the destruction of the Native American tribes, the use of race-based slavery for commercial purposes, the nuking of Nagasaki and Hiroshima, and the transgressions in Vietnam. My point to you though is to consider the perspectives of everyone and combine that with a historical framework rather than overlying on assumption and conspiracy.

    • Replies: @bunga
  9. […] Source: Turkey duped the US, and ISIS reaps rewards – The Unz Review […]

  10. bunga says:

    I don’t see any conspiracy theory here .Neither I sense an assumption. But then people do see conspiracy when none exists and also ignore one because it happens in the open . For them evil has to be disfigured ,one nostril –
    nosed, 3 eyed and
    wearing black overcoats otherwise he is
    not an evil .
    Conspiracy is defined as the planning and attempts to execute which is illegal, y 2 or more persons .It current parlance evokes something more – broad usurpation of powers that regulate the checks and balances to prevent a conspiracy to take place . But when usurpation has been
    normalized as it has in US , the chances are conspiracy will be viewed through the lenses of national interests and security and it will lose its core meanings and shock value. Muslim Brotherhood , Islaim parties in Northern Africa
    Al Quida to al Nusra to IS to moderates are the spectrum of broadband that have been used and maligned by the west to secure something to get

    something done and also to send a message .That message is that Islam is evil and be fought everywhere all the time . There lies the conspiracy . Politicans can flip flop and Zionist can remind that there an islamist under the bed about to wake everybody up at 2 am

    • Replies: @Sonic
  11. bunga says:

    just above is the posting meant for your observation

  12. cockburned
    take your mi5 tavistock gchq

    ugly walking talking deep cover zionist operations
    on the liberal surface the good men of letters.
    just actors,media low level operatives
    working for the queens and the rabbi shilling.
    these guys they are critical of israel of nuttyahoo
    psy warfare
    by deception thou shalt do war is the mossad law

  13. Turkey Duped the US, and ISIS Reaps Rewards

    100 years of tavistock learning in those kosher words.
    isis is israel
    sis is uk
    aman is mossad military wing of israel
    qatar and the donmeh jewish family called the house of saud money bagmen

    mi6 israel isis and cia ideas men with the help of chatham house and brookings institute.
    jordan and turkey training grounds terror recruiters from around the world
    turkey trucks by the thousands in and out every week
    logistics logistics.
    erdogan stole the industrial base out of aleppo and help wreck the rest.
    turkey is the next syria.
    turkey soon be cooked in it’s own juices.
    ziocon newcons and the talmud rabbi
    laughing on
    deconstruction for oded yinon
    when israel is mighty

    • Replies: @Deduction
  14. KA says:

    1992-The Carnegie Endowment for International Peace publishes “Self-Determination in the New World Order” by Morton H. Halperin (head of State Department policy planning under Madeleine Albright) and David Scheffer (Albright’s special envoy for war crimes issues). The book proposes a set of criteria for the US to use in responding to the independence and separatist movements that have arisen since the break-up of the Soviet Union. The authors argue that in certain circumstances, such as when civil unrest threatens to create a humanitarian crisis, “American interests and ideals” compel the US to assume “a more active role.” Interventions “will become increasingly unavoidable,”

    1992–Princeton University professor Bernard Lewis publishes an article in the influential journal Foreign Affairs called “Rethinking the Middle East.” In it, he advocates a policy he calls “Lebanonization.” He says, “[A] possibility, which could even be precipitated by [Islamic] fundamentalism, is what has late been fashionable to call ‘Lebanonization.’ Most of the states of the Middle East—Egypt is an obvious exception—are of recent and artificial construction and are vulnerable to such a process.

    Nutty ideas could take concrete shapes .Preposterous ideas could be put into use . Never misunderestimate the capacities of the evil. They create opportunities to get to the desired results.

    These vile nasty creatures can kiss goodnight to their daughters and granddaughters before retiring to bed after debating all night how to organize murderous destruction of lives and properties of those who meant no harm to these necrophiliacs.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  15. Prof. Tim Anderson, like many others, has written an article “The relationship between Washington and ISIS, the evidence” to expose the lies of Obama regime and his embedded ‘journalists” who are trying to fool you. The embedded ‘journalists’ do not expose the fact that ISIS is US proxy to topple the governments in the region.

    Tim Anderson, like many others, leaves no doubt that Washington/Israel have close relations with ISIS. Obama regime is lying to you when says we are fighting against ISIS. Obama regime is using ISIS, like other terrorist organizations including Al -Qaeda, to destabilize the region to implement Oded Yinon Strategy meaning partition of the regional states Iraq, Syria, Libya, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, Lebanon, even Turkey based on ‘divide and rule’ to erect “Greater Israel” . The embedded ‘journalists’ are coming here spreading lies of USG to justify partition of Iraq, Syria and other countries to erect ‘Kurdistan’ for ‘greater Israel’. That’s why the embedded ‘journalists’ are in support of the Kurds and paint them as ‘democratic’. The Kurds have been spying for Israel for the past 50 years. The population of the region never allows second Israel. If you like partition you should divide the United States, Britain, France, and other Western countries who are engaged in killings of Muslims using their proxies and then deny it.
    Professor Anderson writes:

    Evidence of the covert relationship between Washington and ISIS is substantial and helps explain what Syria’s Deputy Foreign Minister Fayssal Mikdad calls Washington’s ‘cosmetic war’ on ISIS. Their ‘war’ on ISIS is ineffective.
    The UN peacekeeping force based in the occupied Golan has reported its observations of Israel’s Defence Forces ‘interacting with’ al Nusra fighters at the border. At the same time, Israeli arms have been found with the extremist groups, in both Syria and Iraq. In November 2014 members of the Druze minority in the Golan protested against Israel’s hospital support for al Nusra and ISIS fighters.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  16. Sonic says:

    KA – Regarding this statement by Professor Bernard Lewis:

    “…Most of the states of the Middle East—Egypt is an obvious exception—are of recent and artificial construction and are vulnerable to such a process…”

    This statement is actually true. There is now doubt about that. However, the Lebononization process that he talks about is a continuation of that policy. Meaning, the European imperial powers of the past created these states with their artificial borders in order to divide and weaken the Muslims. It was a “Lebononization” process in and of itself!

    Now, as the Islamist parties are waking up and correcting their affairs and past mistakes…what he is proposing will be yet another form of the same thing. It is up to the Muslims to unite their ranks and not allow this to happen. The Muslims cannot unite their ranks if they are being ruled over by dictators and minority sects. Whether Syria, Egypt, Iraq, KSA, Pakistan, or elsewhere – the tyrant rulers backed by either American/Western or Russian aid are the first step to removing western domination and Zionist occupation.

    So this particular Jewish professor knows what he is talking about. He is analyzed the situation correctly, and then goes on to propose a solution that will enhance western and zionist interests. But, the Mujahideen have their own set of interests and will compete with the west in finalizing the outcome. Looking at how things are in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, and Yemen – I think the Mujahideen are winning. Now, the challenge is to spread that same precedent into Syria, Somalia, Pakistan, and other Muslim countries. All until the rightly-guided Khalifah ar-Rashideen is established through the consultation of all Muslims (as represented by their people of influence). No fake khalifahs that seize power unjustly, nor fake nation-states that rule unjustly.

    and Allah knows best

  17. Sonic says:
    @US is ISIS

    No – this is an example of the very conspiracy theories I’ve been talking about. Those nation-states were created specifically to divide the Ottoman Khalifah after its fall in 1924. If Israel now wants to expand its borders and create “Greater Israel”…it will attempt to do so regardless of what exists in those countries. As you surely know, all the countries you mentioned would not be able to defeat Israel in a conventional war. The combination of a nuclear deterrent (which Pakistan has) combined with guerrilla warfare (which Mujahideen from various countries including Hamas, al-Qaidah, ISIS, the Taliban, Ahrar-al-Sham, and others are all utilizing) would interfere with Israel’s plans to expand. The surest way to unite these groups and all the Muslims would be to first remove the nation-states that have successfully divided the Muslim Ummah, and thereafter, permit Israel to use its military power to begin spreading its borders. The US and the West would be initiating a policy that actually goes against its own interests (but we’ve seen that many times before, so that may well be their thinking). Don’t limit yourself to just their thinking or perspectives.

    • Replies: @No Second Israel
  18. Sonic says:

    bungabunga – The groups you listed are in your opinion, being used by the west to get what it wants. But on the other hand, one can argue that those groups stand in the way of the west getting what it wants. This sort of perspective is a bit of a catch-22. One side uses its enemy to get what it wants, and so that casts doubt on the origins or purpose of its enemy. Yet, take away the enemy, and the original side actually ends up getting what it wants much more easily.

    As my advice to KA, if you were to truly research and consider the everyone’s perspective, then assumptions and conspiracy theories would be kept to a minimum. Look, I won’t say that all conspiracy theories are false. But most are. When you have so many different ones running around, sometimes you have to take a step back and question everything. The best way to get to the bottom of things is to get every one’s perspective.

    The Mujahideen want Assad gone. So does the US/Israel. Does that mean they are allies or working in a conspiracy with one another? Assad and the US are bombing ISIS/Daesh. Does that mean they are allies or working in a conspiracy with one another? The US and Saudi Arabia are working hand in hand against various groups in Yemen. Does that mean they are allies or working in a conspiracy with one another? The US and Iran are working hand in hand against various groups in Iraq. Does that mean they are allies or working in a conspiracy with one another?

    The answer to some of the questions above is yes, and the answer to some of the questions above is no. It is admittedly, a very difficult and complex topic. But to get to the right answer, you have to understand and research everyone’s perspective (not just the major powers or one side or another).

    • Agree: Deduction
  19. @Sonic

    {Those nation-states were created specifically to divide the Ottoman Khalifah after its fall in 1924.
    The US and the West would be initiating a policy that actually goes against its own interests}

    Today, the West is repeating exactly the crimes that have done in WWI, 1924, to destabilize using their pawns, the Kurds, ISIS, Al Qaeda and $$$ from puppet Arab states, to divide and rule, and partition even further to create microscopic weak entities to erect ‘greater Israel’. This plan MUST BE DEFEATED AT ANY COST and those who are involved in physically or spreading the propaganda, like embedded ‘journalists’, pseudo intellectuals, , like Noam Chomsky and others – should be fully exposed. Majority of the Zionist Jews are active in this plan and supporting their stooge, Obama, since they are benefiting from destabilization and massacre of Muslims, and spreading the CIA and Mossad propaganda that “the national states were created by the colonial power” so should be divided again and correct the ‘mistake”. Yes, Noam Chomsky, Kissinger, Joe Biden and some dumb US military personnel all are saying the same damn thing and WORKING TOGETHER with a mass murderer, Obama, to implement their plan where so far have killed MILLIONS OF PEOPLE AND HAVE DESTROYED 7 COUNTRIES, all happen to be Islamic state, but NOT a Jewish temple has been set fire yet. That’s very interesting. The Zionist Jews propagandists can’t fool the world. Take your propaganda somewhere else. Our answer is: All of you are war criminals and get lost from our region. Take out the Khazaris who have stolen Palestine and dismantle their WMS before saying any other stupid thing.
    US/Israel know what they are doing and for their vicious plan have constructed ISIS, and other terrorist group. If some people don’t get it must go to doctor and examine their head. Don’t come here and try to fool others. People of the region are victims of the vicious West and do anything, anything to force these criminals, terrorists and thieves out of our region. We won’t listen to Zionist Jews plot and their stooges at the US power centers. The dummies or the agents must read Oded Yinon Strategy before speak.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  20. Sonic says:
    @No Second Israel

    The issue of what was done after WW1 and WW2 is something we agree on then. The question is, what is the solution. That solution is a united Khalifah like the one that existed before 1924 (even if it was imperfect – for all nations, states, and empires have their imperfections). Where the Mujahideen differ from what you say and from what many of those intellectuals advocate is the solution. But we are agreed on the cause and nature of the problem.

    Any group that is seeking to re-establish the Khalifah and unite the Muslim majority of the region cannot be considered an ally, agent, or proxy of the west. It was the destruction and division of the Khalifah that the European imperial powers worked at for centuries. And it was only after they succeeded in this that the modern Zionist state of Israel was established!

    At the moment, Israel can hardly expand and create this “Greater Israel” since its surrounding environment has become more and more dangerous. Israel is and will continue to be on the defensive. There are not enough Jews to populate the “Greater Israel”. It is a dream that won’t come to fruition (God-willing), just as the rebuilding of their Temple will not usher in the Messiah (for the Messiah has already come). This quote should suffice as a rebuttal for your claims, but if one wants to continue on with conspiracy theories – no one can stop them or reason with them…

    “…In a May 1998 interview with ABC’s John Miller, Osama bin Laden noted what he saw as “Zionist plans for expansion of what is called the Great Israel … to achieve full control over the Arab Peninsula which they intend to make an important part of the so called Greater Israel.” While not his main reason, Bin Laden included what he saw as American and Western support for such a scheme as an additional motivation for his call to wage war against America and its allies…”

    • Replies: @US is ISIS
  21. @Sonic

    {Bin Laden included what he saw as American and Western support for such a scheme as an additional motivation for his call to wage war against America and its allies…”}
    You need to study the history seriously not to repeat the lies of the zionist Jews.
    9/11 was a false flag operation to attack 7 countries in 5 years. The following NATO general Clark is telling the world US using 9/11 to attack 7 Islamic countries in 5 years.

    Ben Laden was US pawn so ISIS. How many more evidence ignorant people want to get it? The following video the war criminal, Hillary Clinton is telling the world that US constructed Al Qaeda.

    The criminal west and Israel are using ‘divide and rule’ to destabilize, and partition the regional states by killing the population of the region and erect ‘kurdistan’ as Israel ally to rule the region. We never allow another Israel in the region. We use every single opportunity to force the enemies and occupiers of Palestine out of our region. The population of the region will force ALL THE OCCUPIERS and their pawns out at any price.

    Don’t trust the Zionist Jews including their phony ‘public intellectuals’ who are involved in spreading Western intelligence services. We know WHO THEY ARE.

    • Replies: @Sonic
  22. Deduction says:
    @charles drake

    I didn’t know they had an Internet connection in Broadmoor.

    • Replies: @charles drake
  23. Sonic says:
    @US is ISIS

    Unfortunately, you are completely missing the concept and reality of different groups with different agendas coming together for the sake of a common enemy. That is what happened during the anti-Soviet jihad in the 1980s. The US then abandoned Afghanistan and assumed that those Mujahideen would never pose a threat to anyone so long as no one invaded Afghanistan (the graveyard of empires). From this then, you are assuming that there is a conspiracy and “false flag” behind every successive event. What Hilary is talking about are the consequences and blowback of previous American policies. Not false flags and inside jobs. Likewise, General Clark is giving his opinion on a difference of opinion regarding what sort of response the US should have to 9/11. That is very different from saying that 9/11 was a false flag operation (rather, that is your assumption). History has now shown that the opinion of those neocons regarding Iraq was the worst strategic miscalculation of half a century. Stop using this globalresearch website as well – it is filled with conspiracy theories. Internet conspiracy websites can be used just as easily for disinformation campaigns as public intellectuals. The majority population of the region are Sunni Muslim. In this they will find their common identity and common understanding as to how to form a state. Otherwise, they will continue to fight one another over petty tribal and ethnic causes while the Zionists sit back and laugh. Israel doesn’t have to do anything nor do they have to construct any conspiracies or false flags themselves. Their enemies are too dumb to realize that they are fighting against what unites them (a pure Islamic Khalifah based on the Prophetic model and shurah/consultation) in order to uphold and protect that which divides them (nationalism, sectarianism, ethnicity, tribe, etc.). ISIS is part of the problem not because they were created by the US, but because they seized power unjustly and declared a Khalifah without meeting the requirements and conditions for it. Using the mistakes of your enemy to your advantage (as the US is trying to do now) is not a secret conspiracy nor a unbelievable revelation. It is common sense, and all sides do it.

    • Replies: @US is ISIS
  24. @Sonic

    {The US then abandoned Afghanistan and assumed that those Mujahideen would never pose a threat to anyone so long as no one invaded Afghanistan..}
    You are an ignorant person. I have nothing to do with you. I recommend, however, to read and watch, the following. I am not interested in your answer. DON’T ANSWER ME BACK.
    You cannot deny USG’s crimes against humanity, terrorist and assassination of leaders and political activists, torture, rape, and invasion of other countries based on lies and deception.

    Ventura said: Building 7 came down as demolition, I know because I use to do demolition work, blowing building down.

    {Former Minnesota Governor Jesse Ventura vehemently savaged the official 9/11 story on a syndicated national radio show today, saying the WTC collapsed like a controlled demolition and was pulverized to dust as he also highlighted the impossible 10 second free fall speed of the towers.}

    USG has repeatedly used FALSE FLAG OPERATION to advance its position. The whole world know about it except the ignorant population of America who are brain washed under the “American educational system” training dumb and obedient ‘citizens’, no question asked.
    ya, USG never uses False Flag Operation!!!!
    {the Bay of Pigs invasion, these activities were collected under a CIA program known as Operation Mongoose, also called the Cuban Project. It was lead by General Edward Lansdale of the U.S. Air Force.}

    • Replies: @Sonic
  25. Sonic says:
    @US is ISIS

    No, 9/11 was not an inside job. No false flags. No lies about who is or isn’t this or that. Stay away from assumption and conspiracy and learn what everyone’s actual beliefs and interests are. Then you can make a trustworthy judgement or sound analysis (and of course, even then there will be many differences of opinion).

    Some people believe that we are under the control of reptilian shape-shifters. Some people believe everything is run by the Illuminati. There are a great many other conspiracy theories out there as well. It never ends. One can never reason with those who demand others to constantly prove negatives.

    God made this world and made the truth easy and clear for all to see (so they would not have an excuse on the Day of Judgement). You are only looking for excuses by following this endless path.

  26. @Deduction

    deduction have you read the talmud it is pretty mad like your nuttyahoo : )

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