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Massacre of Mosul Revealed
True civilian death toll feared at 40,000
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More than one million people have been displaced, it has been claimed. Credit: Reuters/The Independent
More than one million people have been displaced, it has been claimed. Credit: Reuters/The Independent

More than 40,000 civilians were killed in the devastating battle to retake Mosul from Isis, according to intelligence reports revealed exclusively to The Independent – a death toll far higher than previous estimates.

Residents of the besieged city were killed by Iraqi ground forces attempting to force out militants, as well as by air strikes and Isis fighters, according to Kurdish intelligence services.

Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said.

“Kurdish intelligence believes that over 40,000 civilians have been killed as a result of massive firepower used against them, especially by the federal police, air strikes and Isis itself,” Mr Zebari added.

Mr Zebari, a native of Mosul and top Kurdish official who has served as the Iraqi finance minister and prior to that foreign minister, emphasised in an exclusive interview that the unrelenting artillery bombardment by units of the Iraqi federal police, in practice a heavily armed military unit, had caused immense destruction and loss of life in west Mosul.

The figure given by Mr Zebari for the number of civilians killed in the nine-month siege is far higher than those previously reported, but the intelligence service of the Kurdistan Regional Government has a reputation for being extremely accurate and well-informed. Isis prevented any monitoring of casualties while outside groups have largely focused on air strikes rather than artillery and rocket fire as a cause of civilian deaths. Airwars, one such monitoring group, estimated that attacks may have killed 5,805 non-military personnel in the city between 19 February and 19 June.

Mr Zebari accuses the government in Baghdad, of which he was until recently a member, of not doing enough to relieve the suffering. “Sometimes you might think the government is indifferent to what has happened,” he said. He doubts if Christians, Yazidis, Kurds and other minorities, who have lived in and around Mosul for centuries, will be able to reconcile with the Sunni Arab majority whom they blame for killing and raping them. He says some form of federal solution for future governance would be best.

Reading from Kurdish intelligence reports, Mr Zebari says that a high level of corruption among the Iraqi military forces occupying Mosul is undermining security measures to suppress Isis in the aftermath of its defeat. He says that suspect individuals are able to pass through military checkpoints by paying $1,000 (£770) and can bring a vehicle by paying $1,500. He says corruption of this type is particularly rife in the 16th and 9th Iraqi army divisions and the Tribal Volunteers (Hashd al-Ashairi), drawn in part from the Shabak minority in the Nineveh Plain.

The ability of Isis militants to remain free or be released from detention by paying bribes has led to a change in attitude among people in Mosul whom Mr Zebari says “were previously willing to give information about Isis members to the Iraqi security forces”. They are now wary of doing so, because they see members of Isis, whom they had identified and who had been arrested, returning to the streets capable of exacting revenge on those who informed against them. Several anti-Isis people in Mosul have confirmed to The Independent that this is indeed the case and they are frightened of these returnees and Isis “sleeper cells” that continue to exist.

Civilians in Mosul say they do not fault the behaviour towards them of combat units that have borne the brunt of the fighting, such as the Counter-Terrorism Service, but they are concerned about what to expect from less well-disciplined troops. A belief that Isis fighters and officials detained in Mosul are later able to bribe their way free explains why soldiers, most of whom are not complicit in bribery networks, have summarily executed Isis prisoners, sometimes by throwing them off high buildings.

Corruption by the occupying military forces takes different forms, according to Kurdish intelligence information cited by Mr Zebari. Some people are “being charged $100 for removing a body from the rubble and others $500 to reoccupy their house”, where it is still standing. Iraqi army and militia units have always been notorious for exacting fees and protection money from civilians, with trucks moving goods on the roads being a particularly profitable target when they pass through military checkpoints.

Much of the blame for the calamitous level of destruction in west Mosul has been put on air strikes, but it is evident at ground level that a lot of the damage was caused by artillery shells and rockets. This is confirmed by an Amnesty International report issued last week titled At Any Cost: The Civilian Catastrophe in West Mosul, Iraq, which points to a greater and more indiscriminate use of its firepower by pro-government forces in the final stages of the attack on east Mosul, starting in January 2017 and continuing over the following six months during the assault on west Mosul. It says that Iraqi government and US-led coalition forces “relied heavily upon explosive weapons with wide area effects such as IRAMs (Improvised Rocket Assisted Munitions). With their crude targeting abilities, these weapons wreaked havoc in densely populated west Mosul, where large groups of civilians were trapped in homes or makeshift shelters”. The UN estimated that Mosul had 1.2 million inhabitants at the start of the siege.

In addition, Isis snipers killed great numbers of civilians trying to escape. The militant group was using civilians as “human shields”, though in the event their presence shielded very little. Mr Zebari said that intelligence had even intercepted messages “from Isis fighters to their commanders saying they were tired of killing civilians”.

ORDER IT NOW

Mr Zebari says that he is disappointed by the lack of Iraqi government plans to reconstruct Mosul. As finance minister in Baghdad until late last year, he had made provision for $500m in the budget for rebuilding Mosul. He says: “I wanted $500m upfront to encourage other donors, but now the government has withdrawn from the fund and used the money elsewhere. This was not an encouraging sign.”

Even if there is reconstruction, Mr Zebari, who grew up in Mosul and still has a house in the east of the city (though long confiscated, first by Saddam Hussein and later by Isis), laments that “the soul of Mosul has gone and its iconic buildings are destroyed”. He says he cannot imagine Mosul without the Nabi Yunus mosque (the tomb of Jonah) that Isis blew up as a heretical shrine in 2014 and the al-Nuri mosque, with its 12th century leaning minaret, which Isis destroyed in the last stage of the battle to prevent its capture by government forces. In addition, there is “an unimaginable level of human suffering with more than one million people displaced”.

He agrees that the government has won a big victory by destroying Isis as a state structure controlling extensive territory. But he warns that the militant group has shown that it is capable of “adapting themselves to new realities”. He says that the arms and heavy equipment from three Iraqi army divisions that Isis captured when it seized Mosul in June 2014 has never been fully accounted for. He says that there have been reports that much of it was hidden by Isis in tunnels, gorges and valleys in the arid wastelands of western Iraq and eastern Syria. “This is where they came from when they started their attacks,” he says.

Asked if the self-declared caliph Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is alive or dead, Mr Zebari said he did not know. But he added that, if Baghdadi was dead, it was strange that no new caliph or Isis leader had been declared since part of the ideology of such movements is that they do not rely on a single human being. Successors had been quickly announced when Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq, was killed in a US air strike in 2006 and Osama bin Laden was shot dead by US special forces in Pakistan in 2011. Moreover, he says that there “has been no sign of a change in the Isis command and control structure”.

Read more from Patrick Cockburn’s series on the Last Days of the Caliphate

(Republished from The Independent by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Iraq, ISIS, Kurds 
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  1. Patriot says:

    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr “Freedom and Democracy” romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Read More
    • Agree: Dan Hayes, L.K
    • Replies: @anon
    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from all of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Well, USA may be considered to have been fully destroyed. What we live in today is just a corpse. It will fully rot away in a couple more decades. Our sins have been atoned.
    , @lavoisier
    A police state where the government lies to us with impunity.
    , @Ram
    Multiple military bases, Potential for Israeli expansion unhindered by the Arabs and the ultimate prize of trillions of dollars worth of Russian wealth.
    , @annamaria
    "Shame, shame, shame on us.'
    But the banksters and MIC contractors had a field day - under the benevolent supervision of AIPAC.
    , @Joe Wong
    USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if the outcome of Iraq destroy the credibility of American power to destroy the American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    8000 servicemen and 4 trillion is a small price to pay for maintaining the credibility of American willingness to use its power. Through the wars in Iraq and surrounding areas USA has successfully remind the world there is a price to pay in challenging its eminence of world power dominance, if they cannot have it then nobody can have it. A more servile Europe, Japan, South Korea and India to the USA is the intended consequence in case you don't know.
    , @Liberty Mike
    It is not the negro who gave us empire or the MIC or the CFR or the Trilateral Commission or, for that matter, the 16th amendment, the progressive income tax, the estate tax, the gift tax, the gasoline excise tax or the Fed.

    We have only whitey to blame - OURSELVES and our addiction to jerking off to flags, flyovers, and men in uniform.
    , @Sparkon

    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr “Freedom and Democracy” romp in the Middle East belongs to America.
    [...]
    Shame, shame, shame on us.
     
    No!

    You need to learn to paint with a much finer brush, and practice the fine art of discrimination, as in good from bad.

    Indeed, I find your broad, sweeping condemnation of all Americans for the situation in Iraq to be highly offensive, when many of us have been against the entire illegitimate adventure from the very beginning.

    So please don't include me with the lying sacks of shit who hornswoggled the USA into attacking Iraq in 2003, most especially with George W. Bush and his Magic TV that was obviously on.

    Try to remember that millions of Americans marched in early 2003 to protest the impending invasion of Iraq, and they were joined in similar protests around the world.

    So please, don't try to lay that guilt trip on me, or any of the many other Americans who've been against these foreign adventures that were kicked off by the symbolic destruction of the WTC, a televised special effects psycho-drama to herald the New World Order.

    Point your finger at the guilty parties.
    , @Wally
    "Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said."

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.
    , @Internet Partisan
    The blame falls squarely and solely on American leadership from both parties, their deep-state cronies, and the complicit, chattering commentariat pushing them all to the edge. The only man standing outside this hellstorm of perversion and cynicism has been Trump.
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  2. ISIS never would have gotten out of control if not for Turkey and Saudis with the backing of the US.

    But if you got the power, you can get away with anything.

    It’s like what the guy says in BETTER TOMATO.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Druid
    You forgot the Zionists!
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  3. NoldorElf says:

    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US – he didn’t even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn’t mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist

    "Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars."
     
    Debt is just somebody else's savings borrowed for your own purposes... when you have control of the sovereign, you can borrow on its credit to line your own pockets with little fear of having to repay that debt as long as you dress the borrowing up in noble clothing, like liberating oppressed peoples two or three times in a decade. TPTB have no worries about being held to account, because they have increased surveillance of you and your money to minimize the threat you might pose, and they have militarized the police to deal with you if that is not enough.

    The US is in debt ... So What? Who and what army are going to collect?
    , @NoseytheDuke
    It has to be stated also that it was the US trained Iraqi forces that were supposed to defend Mosul but who instead fled from ISIS and abandoned their weapons to them without even putting up a token resistance. How much did the US taxpayer fork out to equip and train that cowardly rabble? Gawd only knows, because the Pentagon certainly doesn't.

    Nobody has been held to account, nobody. People still buy the NYT without a thought of the vile lies they spread. They all should forfeit their assets, from the GWBush family on down and especially the traitorous neocon swine. Repugs and Dumbos alike.

    I especially would like to see Tony Blair swing like Saddam did. The US was wobbling on the whole Iraq war thing until he addressed both houses with a stirring speech. I watched it live on TV with a tough old Marine Vietnam vet who broke down when he realised "we" were going to war again. Very sad indeed.
    , @Anon
    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.

    Middle east would have been much more stable if only islam wouldnt have split into the two major factions...sunnism and shiitism.
    , @Talha
    I remember marching in support of the worldwide protests against the war in 2003. I was in Los Angeles - and I'll never forget that a local news station sent out a crew to report on the protests and though the reporter seemed nice enough, the camera man had a shirt on blatantly saying Bomb Iraq with a map of Iraq in cross-hairs.

    We all knew it was going to not end well, but none of us had any idea it would turn out as bad as it did.

    And the rest of your points are all very valid - much respect.

    Peace.
    , @Druid
    All part of the Ziofascist plan of destabilization od Israel's neighbours ala the Yinon plan
    , @Logan
    The problem with this notion is normalcy bias. Saddam had been in power for some decades so he would still be in power had we not overthrown him.

    The various Arab secular dictatorships have the enormous problem of an absence of legitimacy. Most of their people simply did not / do not see their power as legitimate. So by default they were forced to rule by fear.

    Which means, more or less by definition, that they had to constantly increase the repression to stay in power. Such a society only ever has one end. It's a pressure cooker with the safety valve disabled. It WILL explode, the only question being when. And the longer till the explosion, the greater the destruction when it does go up.

    Does this mean our various interventions have been a good idea? Probably not. But the notion that all would have gone on as it was in 2000 is not necessarily accurate either.

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  4. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from all of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Well, USA may be considered to have been fully destroyed. What we live in today is just a corpse. It will fully rot away in a couple more decades. Our sins have been atoned.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    Our sins have been atoned.
     
    Not at all. The atonement has just begun. Wait until bombs shatter American cities and villages, killing millions of illegal aliens and a few scattered whites. Now, THAT's atonement.
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  5. Dutch cartoonist Marten Toonder was a wise man, the inhabitants of an island liberated over and over again had but one wish ‘liberate us from the liberators’.

    Read More
    • Replies: @hyperbola
    Ugandan foreign minister: "thank god that when we had our civil war nobody was interested - it would have been much worse".
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  6. Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq.

    Actually, the principal reason was to put Saddam down for good, although WMD was one of several dozen stated reasons, ranging from Saddam’s human rights violations to his repeated breaching of the conditions of the Gulf War I ceasefire. Of course, that Uncle Sam hadn’t figured on Saddam allying with Islamists and nurturing them inside Iraq itself. These Sunni Arab Islamists formed the nucleus of the insurgency that, while they couldn’t win outright, certainly wreaked havoc while they were trying. It’s unfortunate that they chose to fight, and a good chunk of the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab made common cause with them. But it was always going to come to a reckoning. That the US was involved probably gave the Sunni Arabs in Iraq a happier ending than would otherwise have been the case, if Shiites had eventually taken power through violent revolution. Still, given how fluid things are, and the amount of suffering inflicted by Sunni Arabs, first through Saddam and then through Islamists, it’s quite possible that they will be expelled from Iraq through a deliberate policy of legal and social persecution, if not outright massacre.

    The consolation prize for the Sunni Arab survivors is that Germany seems to have provided them with a bolthole. Given Merkel’s stated policy of not limiting refugee admissions, they might all find new homes in the EU.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Druid
    These Islamists (Isis) was a result of the destabilization by the USA and Israel
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  7. Is OK, this is merciful, humanitarian and democratic massacre.
    Somebody may receive Nobel Peace prize for it yet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Is OK, this is merciful, humanitarian and democratic massacre.
    Somebody may receive Nobel Peace prize for it yet.
     
    Somebody already did.
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  8. @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    “Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.”

    Debt is just somebody else’s savings borrowed for your own purposes… when you have control of the sovereign, you can borrow on its credit to line your own pockets with little fear of having to repay that debt as long as you dress the borrowing up in noble clothing, like liberating oppressed peoples two or three times in a decade. TPTB have no worries about being held to account, because they have increased surveillance of you and your money to minimize the threat you might pose, and they have militarized the police to deal with you if that is not enough.

    The US is in debt … So What? Who and what army are going to collect?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    If it was just a matter of the US governments at all levels defaulting on debt so the Chinese and other foreign creditors suffered large losses (and left Wall Street hugely diminished) that would indeed be a case of a banana tepublic untouchable by gunboats but the really big debt is pensions and other forms of welfare promised on the basis of an evergrowing economy and tax base large enough to pay as you go. Then perhaps the question becomes one of who is protected against the depreciation of the $ and inflation that is part of the remedy....
    , @Joe Wong
    "The US is in debt … So What? Who and what army are going to collect?" The US Treasury, Courts, Banks, Bank for International Settlements, lawyers, etc. are going to collect those debts and interests for the debt holders. As the payments for the debts eat more and more into the revenue, government will cut social and national programs to pay those debts and interests. Most governments resort to hyper inflation to handle those crunches. Life will a lot fun by then.

    On the bright side, no one in the USA will be forced to pay those debts and interests directly.
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  9. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    A police state where the government lies to us with impunity.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "A police state where the government lies to us with impunity."

    You didn't describe America here. In other words, you are promoting Fake News. Mommy must be proud.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    It has to be stated also that it was the US trained Iraqi forces that were supposed to defend Mosul but who instead fled from ISIS and abandoned their weapons to them without even putting up a token resistance. How much did the US taxpayer fork out to equip and train that cowardly rabble? Gawd only knows, because the Pentagon certainly doesn’t.

    Nobody has been held to account, nobody. People still buy the NYT without a thought of the vile lies they spread. They all should forfeit their assets, from the GWBush family on down and especially the traitorous neocon swine. Repugs and Dumbos alike.

    I especially would like to see Tony Blair swing like Saddam did. The US was wobbling on the whole Iraq war thing until he addressed both houses with a stirring speech. I watched it live on TV with a tough old Marine Vietnam vet who broke down when he realised “we” were going to war again. Very sad indeed.

    Read More
    • Agree: Rurik, Druid
    • Replies: @alternatereality
    It's much worse than that.

    Former ambassador James Jeffrey has been making the rounds, insisting that US must "stay the course," complete the mission of democratizing Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, because the US practice of destroying then rebuilding has "worked so well" -- his words -- in Europe.

    Jeffrey was among panelists at a Middle East Policy Council (MEPC) conference the other day.

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvzt-D_aCEo
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  11. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.

    Middle east would have been much more stable if only islam wouldnt have split into the two major factions…sunnism and shiitism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.I don't know where you get your information.
     
    I am getting tired of pointing out to you, hundreds of times, that you have no knowledge of Middle East or Islamic history. This is a stupid and childish statement and I am being civilized about it.

    And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis,
     
    Please cite a reference or describe the occasion when Shiites were brutal to Sunnis? For God's sakes if you are going to comment on this site at lease know your facts. It is better to keep quiet or you will come out looking like a fool. I know this is a statement right out of your head because even your normal source of information, i.e. Wikipedia, does not say this, unleass you have yourself added that statement to it.
    , @Wally
    The Middle East and the world would be much more stable if only "that shitty little country" didn't exist.
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  12. Ram says:
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Multiple military bases, Potential for Israeli expansion unhindered by the Arabs and the ultimate prize of trillions of dollars worth of Russian wealth.

    Read More
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  13. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Hey, they’re only ‘ragheads,’ so what’s the big deal? Israel wanted Saddam dead and Iraq destroyed and we obeyed our Yiddish Master, that’s what occupied nations do, worship the occupier and act on its commands.

    Now if it had been Israelis getting killed, why the MSM would be in an uproar 24/7 with mournful tales of past Holocau$t™ fantasies and how the world is filled with evil anti-Semites, but since the ones being butchered were Ayyyrabs, well no harm, no foul, How about them Cubs?

    Oded Yinon’s “A Strategy for Israel in the Nineteen Eighties”

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/The%20Zionist%20Plan%20for%20the%20Middle%20East.pdf

    Read More
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  14. unit472 says:

    This is consistant with WW2 experience of combat operations in urban centers. If anything, the toll is low since starvation does not seem to be a big factor.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Johann
    This year the American Empire and its War Department is celebrating the one hundredth anniversary of Preacher Wilson and his progressive comrades declaring war on Germany. Oh what a glorious war with moronic Americans singing out " Over There" from the top of their inebriated lungs. WWI was a dispute among the royal families of Europe over their various empires; indeed all of Queen Victoria's grandsons were at each other's throats. Along comes Uncle Sap and his American war lovers and bang we are into a three year old war which had already taken over a million and a half lives of young Europeans. America sends its farm boys and factory workers over three thousand miles away in order to kill "krauts" and in order to save JP Morgan and the evil bankers who had concocted up the whole war with their Brit banking buds. So the perpetual war machine of the American Empire was sent abroad and is still killing and bombing. Americans love their wars and slaughters they salute them all the time.
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  15. Talha says:
    @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    I remember marching in support of the worldwide protests against the war in 2003. I was in Los Angeles – and I’ll never forget that a local news station sent out a crew to report on the protests and though the reporter seemed nice enough, the camera man had a shirt on blatantly saying Bomb Iraq with a map of Iraq in cross-hairs.

    We all knew it was going to not end well, but none of us had any idea it would turn out as bad as it did.

    And the rest of your points are all very valid – much respect.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  16. It’s funny how this hasn’t been on TV news every night and the Guardian every day for the last two months, along with calls from NGOs for Western forces to bomb the Iraqi Army and impose a no-fly zone over the city.

    You’d almost think there was an agenda other than protecting civilian life!

    Read More
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  17. annamaria says:
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    “Shame, shame, shame on us.’
    But the banksters and MIC contractors had a field day – under the benevolent supervision of AIPAC.

    Read More
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  18. Clyde says:
    Read More
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  19. Joe Wong says:
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if the outcome of Iraq destroy the credibility of American power to destroy the American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    8000 servicemen and 4 trillion is a small price to pay for maintaining the credibility of American willingness to use its power. Through the wars in Iraq and surrounding areas USA has successfully remind the world there is a price to pay in challenging its eminence of world power dominance, if they cannot have it then nobody can have it. A more servile Europe, Japan, South Korea and India to the USA is the intended consequence in case you don’t know.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Stonehands
    "American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses..."

    Of course "the good" means the promotion of "equality"essentially a repudiation of quality, a denial of differentiation apart from which quality cannot exist.
    The whole equality movement is a process by which the normal organic structure of a sound society breaks down into a mush of decay (faggotry, feminism, kike/nigger hedonism, the depradations of finance capitalism.)

    The most generous judgment that can be made of American democracy is that it has been based on too favorable an estimate of human nature...an estimate too romantic and thus false.
    Democracy is a form of government that will not work and will not last because it lacks the basic requisite of all sound government- that it shall fit the nature of man.
    , @Apolonius
    Europe, Japan, South Korea were conquered by US not so much by power, but by economical help. Then USA really had good reputation in the whole world.
    Now it is acting as a mad bully, in the interests of Israel. Do you think that this behaviour brings credibility to USA? Willingness to use power is very common among criminals, this is why they are so much respected?
    I guess you will say : it is for good. Which good? Yours, Iraquis, Serbs, German, whatever goods? Good is not absolute category, but depend on each actor interests. So, it is not so important for what good you are fighting, but how you are doing it. USA is doing it using lies and horrible violence, this will not augment its reputation in any way. People are not some ciphers, that can be violently molded to somebody´s liking- many tried, no one succeeded. Your panageric to power sounds somewhat infantil ("if they cannot have it, nobody can have it"). USA had credibility in whole world not only because of its power, but because of its openess, free speech, strong free economy, culture, science, etc..
    Now whole world laughs watching US congressman jumping 29 times for ovation during half hour speech of Netanyahu .
    Or listening to the donkey who is US president. Good for reputation!
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  20. Interesting how not one person here blames the people who actually did the killing.

    If somebody commits a crime against you I’m sure you will never blame the criminal, right?

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Military does what the top politicians tell them to do in democracies.

    Top politicians get elected by...uhm...knowledgeable citizenship.

    In urban combat, against extremely determined opponent, that's how it works.

    Also, did the civilian population want to leave?
    Did the attacker give non-combatants time and corridor to leave before commencing combat operations?
    The most important, did the defender allow civilians to leave?

    Or, who cares.
    Just blame the bad Americans.
    , @Craig Morris
    A friend's son died in Afghanistan. He has a permanent hero tribute on a street corner near here. I am sorry for them and their loss. He was duped and I have a hard time blaming a 20 year old for believing and acting on what he was told by those he loved and respected. I believed the US was an honorable country when I was his age too. Would it be helpful to tell them their son died for nothing, actually worse than nothing? I don't know.
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  21. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from all of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    Well, USA may be considered to have been fully destroyed. What we live in today is just a corpse. It will fully rot away in a couple more decades. Our sins have been atoned.

    Our sins have been atoned.

    Not at all. The atonement has just begun. Wait until bombs shatter American cities and villages, killing millions of illegal aliens and a few scattered whites. Now, THAT’s atonement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Neither one of you knows what atonement means.
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  22. @NoseytheDuke
    It has to be stated also that it was the US trained Iraqi forces that were supposed to defend Mosul but who instead fled from ISIS and abandoned their weapons to them without even putting up a token resistance. How much did the US taxpayer fork out to equip and train that cowardly rabble? Gawd only knows, because the Pentagon certainly doesn't.

    Nobody has been held to account, nobody. People still buy the NYT without a thought of the vile lies they spread. They all should forfeit their assets, from the GWBush family on down and especially the traitorous neocon swine. Repugs and Dumbos alike.

    I especially would like to see Tony Blair swing like Saddam did. The US was wobbling on the whole Iraq war thing until he addressed both houses with a stirring speech. I watched it live on TV with a tough old Marine Vietnam vet who broke down when he realised "we" were going to war again. Very sad indeed.

    It’s much worse than that.

    Former ambassador James Jeffrey has been making the rounds, insisting that US must “stay the course,” complete the mission of democratizing Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, because the US practice of destroying then rebuilding has “worked so well” — his words — in Europe.

    Jeffrey was among panelists at a Middle East Policy Council (MEPC) conference the other day.

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.
     
    I hope Nassim Taleb doesn't watch this smarmy Levantine huckster, he'd have a coronary. Taleb says social science is bullshit. Well, applied sociopolitical science is triply bullshit.
    , @annamaria
    Israeli' interests demand a ruined and dissolute Syria. Currently, these Israeli interests clash with American interests that prefer stability in the Middle East. Netanyahu is hysterical that the ziocon-occupied US allows itself to care more about the US interests instead of serving the "master race" of Talmudic Adams.
    Certain powerful Americans are firmly attached to Israeli interests because of oil: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/07/a-syrian-cordon-sanitaire-is-israel-huffing-puffing-or-is-it-serious-.html#more
    "The Israeli/U.S. energy company Genie has been drilling in the occupied Golan and found significant amounts of oil and gas. There is likely more on the now Jihadi occupied side. Genie's "strategic advisory committee" includes Dick Cheney, Michael Steinhardt, Jacob Rothschild, Rupert Murdoch, R. James Woolsey, Jr., Lawrence Summers and Bill Richardson. That is a lot of U.S. lobbying power involved here that could influence any decision."
    Expect more American treasure & limb squandered for the benefit of the above-listed war profiteers.
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  23. @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    It is not the negro who gave us empire or the MIC or the CFR or the Trilateral Commission or, for that matter, the 16th amendment, the progressive income tax, the estate tax, the gift tax, the gasoline excise tax or the Fed.

    We have only whitey to blame – OURSELVES and our addiction to jerking off to flags, flyovers, and men in uniform.

    Read More
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  24. David says:

    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures. So when someone from the middle east is looking for a big number to indicate suffering, he’s likely to gravitate to forty.

    Read More
    • Replies: @hyperbola
    Whereas we can certainly count on "our" media to give us accurate information.

    Mass Media Siege: Comparing Coverage Of Mosul and Aleppo
    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/852-mass-media-siege-comparing-coverage-of-mosul-and-aleppo.html

    When Russian and Syrian forces were bombarding 'rebel'-held East Aleppo last year, newspapers and television screens were full of anguished reporting about the plight of civilians killed, injured, trapped, traumatised or desperately fleeing. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian leader Vladimir Putin, both Official Enemies, were denounced and demonised, in accordance with the usual propaganda script. One piece in the Evening Standard described Assad as a 'monster' and a Boris Johnson column in the Telegraph referred to both Putin and Assad as 'the Devil'.....

    By contrast, there was little of this evident in media coverage as the Iraqi city of Mosul, with a population of around one million, was being pulverised by the US-led 'coalition' from 2015; particularly since the massive assault launched last October to 'liberate' the city from ISIS, with 'victory' declared a few days ago. Most pointedly, western media coverage has not, of course, demonised the US for inflicting mass death and suffering....

    .... Amnesty says that the people of Mosul were subjected to:

    'a terrifying barrage of fire from weapons that should never be used in densely populated civilian areas.'...

    For months before and after this atrocity, BBC News had featured several reports from its correspondent Jonathan Beale who was 'embedded' with Iraqi troops. These pieces had titles like 'On the ground with Iraqi forces in battle for Mosul', and they were sprinkled with propaganda phrases such as:....

    This was a bang-bang style of 'journalism' that obscured or blanked the deaths of civilians being killed in the 'Battle for Mosul', as the BBC News television studio graphic called the massive bombardment, time after time, for months on end. It was always 'Battle for Mosul'; never 'US air strike massacres civilians' or 'US seeks hegemony in the Middle East'. It's Good ('Us') vs Evil ('Them'). The BBC website offered a single article, titled 'Can civilian deaths be avoided in RAF strikes on IS?', as a pitiful 'balance' to the rolling barrage of pro-coalition propaganda. Tellingly, Beale's piece revealed its propaganda stance in closing with the perspective of RAF Air Commodore Johnny Stringer who said:....
    , @MEexpert

    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.
     
    Thank you David. My point exactly. Patrick Cockburn always has Kurds as sources of his information. He has been propagating their cause throughout this conflict. The West is only interested in dividing Iraq and Syria. By giving autonomy to Kurds in Iraq and Syria, they hope that the Kurds in Turkey and Iran will also demand the same autonomy, thereby weakening those countries as well. You noticed that the US has been supplying weapons to Kurds in both of these countries.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures.
     
    You were very explicit about the number 40 in the bible but glanced over any citation for number 40 in Quran except , as you say, "the parts copied from the Hebrew Scriptures." The very educated people in the West do not seem to understand one simple fact. If One God created this world and He controlled the events that occurred from the day it was created, then maybe, it is possible that the accounts of those events in various books will have some similarities and that one may not have copied those events from other books.

    The Torah, the Evangel, and the Qur'an are the scriptures revealed to their respective recipients by the One God. The people of various times were constantly reminded of the events that occurred before to the earlier populations.
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  25. Johann says:
    @unit472
    This is consistant with WW2 experience of combat operations in urban centers. If anything, the toll is low since starvation does not seem to be a big factor.

    This year the American Empire and its War Department is celebrating the one hundredth anniversary of Preacher Wilson and his progressive comrades declaring war on Germany. Oh what a glorious war with moronic Americans singing out ” Over There” from the top of their inebriated lungs. WWI was a dispute among the royal families of Europe over their various empires; indeed all of Queen Victoria’s grandsons were at each other’s throats. Along comes Uncle Sap and his American war lovers and bang we are into a three year old war which had already taken over a million and a half lives of young Europeans. America sends its farm boys and factory workers over three thousand miles away in order to kill “krauts” and in order to save JP Morgan and the evil bankers who had concocted up the whole war with their Brit banking buds. So the perpetual war machine of the American Empire was sent abroad and is still killing and bombing. Americans love their wars and slaughters they salute them all the time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @woodNfish
    Nice piece of revisionist trash there.
    , @Anonymous, @NoseytheDuke
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/hidden-history-the-secret-origins-of-the-first-world-war/5600090
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  26. @Joe Wong
    USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if the outcome of Iraq destroy the credibility of American power to destroy the American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    8000 servicemen and 4 trillion is a small price to pay for maintaining the credibility of American willingness to use its power. Through the wars in Iraq and surrounding areas USA has successfully remind the world there is a price to pay in challenging its eminence of world power dominance, if they cannot have it then nobody can have it. A more servile Europe, Japan, South Korea and India to the USA is the intended consequence in case you don't know.

    “American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses…”

    Of course “the good” means the promotion of “equality”essentially a repudiation of quality, a denial of differentiation apart from which quality cannot exist.
    The whole equality movement is a process by which the normal organic structure of a sound society breaks down into a mush of decay (faggotry, feminism, kike/nigger hedonism, the depradations of finance capitalism.)

    The most generous judgment that can be made of American democracy is that it has been based on too favorable an estimate of human nature…an estimate too romantic and thus false.
    Democracy is a form of government that will not work and will not last because it lacks the basic requisite of all sound government- that it shall fit the nature of man.

    Read More
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  27. hyperbola says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Dutch cartoonist Marten Toonder was a wise man, the inhabitants of an island liberated over and over again had but one wish 'liberate us from the liberators'.

    Ugandan foreign minister: “thank god that when we had our civil war nobody was interested – it would have been much worse”.

    Read More
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  28. hyperbola says:
    @David
    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures. So when someone from the middle east is looking for a big number to indicate suffering, he's likely to gravitate to forty.

    Whereas we can certainly count on “our” media to give us accurate information.

    Mass Media Siege: Comparing Coverage Of Mosul and Aleppo

    http://www.medialens.org/index.php/alerts/alert-archive/2017/852-mass-media-siege-comparing-coverage-of-mosul-and-aleppo.html

    When Russian and Syrian forces were bombarding ‘rebel’-held East Aleppo last year, newspapers and television screens were full of anguished reporting about the plight of civilians killed, injured, trapped, traumatised or desperately fleeing. Syrian President Bashar al-Assad and Russian leader Vladimir Putin, both Official Enemies, were denounced and demonised, in accordance with the usual propaganda script. One piece in the Evening Standard described Assad as a ‘monster’ and a Boris Johnson column in the Telegraph referred to both Putin and Assad as ‘the Devil’…..

    By contrast, there was little of this evident in media coverage as the Iraqi city of Mosul, with a population of around one million, was being pulverised by the US-led ‘coalition’ from 2015; particularly since the massive assault launched last October to ‘liberate’ the city from ISIS, with ‘victory’ declared a few days ago. Most pointedly, western media coverage has not, of course, demonised the US for inflicting mass death and suffering….

    …. Amnesty says that the people of Mosul were subjected to:

    ‘a terrifying barrage of fire from weapons that should never be used in densely populated civilian areas.’…

    For months before and after this atrocity, BBC News had featured several reports from its correspondent Jonathan Beale who was ‘embedded’ with Iraqi troops. These pieces had titles like ‘On the ground with Iraqi forces in battle for Mosul’, and they were sprinkled with propaganda phrases such as:….

    This was a bang-bang style of ‘journalism’ that obscured or blanked the deaths of civilians being killed in the ‘Battle for Mosul’, as the BBC News television studio graphic called the massive bombardment, time after time, for months on end. It was always ‘Battle for Mosul’; never ‘US air strike massacres civilians’ or ‘US seeks hegemony in the Middle East’. It’s Good (‘Us’) vs Evil (‘Them’). The BBC website offered a single article, titled ‘Can civilian deaths be avoided in RAF strikes on IS?’, as a pitiful ‘balance’ to the rolling barrage of pro-coalition propaganda. Tellingly, Beale’s piece revealed its propaganda stance in closing with the perspective of RAF Air Commodore Johnny Stringer who said:….

    Read More
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  29. mr meener says:

    if there was really a god they should be digging your family from the rubble

    Read More
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  30. mr meener says:

    I see no proof of god only the devil. what we did to that country is beyond description. and the neo-cohens are still prancing around like kill bill crystal. he will live to 100. even the demon mc cain who the devil is calling home is over 80. I see no demon pay for what they did here. we are to believe they pay later. I want to see them suffer immensely noe

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    I see no proof of god only the devil. what we did to that country is beyond description. and the neo-cohens are still prancing around like kill bill crystal. he will live to 100. even the demon mc cain who the devil is calling home is over 80. I see no demon pay for what they did here. we are to believe they pay later. I want to see them suffer immensely noe
     
    If you were John McCain or any of the other neocons who pushed for all this death and destruction, how frightened would you be before shuffling off your mortal coil and entering into eternity?? And to think, some people leave this existence worried that they didn't do enough to help others or didn't lead as virtuous life as they could've and should've.
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  31. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @alternatereality
    It's much worse than that.

    Former ambassador James Jeffrey has been making the rounds, insisting that US must "stay the course," complete the mission of democratizing Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, because the US practice of destroying then rebuilding has "worked so well" -- his words -- in Europe.

    Jeffrey was among panelists at a Middle East Policy Council (MEPC) conference the other day.

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvzt-D_aCEo

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.

    I hope Nassim Taleb doesn’t watch this smarmy Levantine huckster, he’d have a coronary. Taleb says social science is bullshit. Well, applied sociopolitical science is triply bullshit.

    Read More
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  32. annamaria says:
    @alternatereality
    It's much worse than that.

    Former ambassador James Jeffrey has been making the rounds, insisting that US must "stay the course," complete the mission of democratizing Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, because the US practice of destroying then rebuilding has "worked so well" -- his words -- in Europe.

    Jeffrey was among panelists at a Middle East Policy Council (MEPC) conference the other day.

    A Syrian ex-pat who had been an aide to (failed/flawed/neocon) former ambassador Robert Ford was even more callous in urging that the US continue its operations in Syria to topple Assad. The guy is a predatory capitalist who could give Goldman Sachs pointers.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vvzt-D_aCEo

    Israeli’ interests demand a ruined and dissolute Syria. Currently, these Israeli interests clash with American interests that prefer stability in the Middle East. Netanyahu is hysterical that the ziocon-occupied US allows itself to care more about the US interests instead of serving the “master race” of Talmudic Adams.
    Certain powerful Americans are firmly attached to Israeli interests because of oil: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/07/a-syrian-cordon-sanitaire-is-israel-huffing-puffing-or-is-it-serious-.html#more
    “The Israeli/U.S. energy company Genie has been drilling in the occupied Golan and found significant amounts of oil and gas. There is likely more on the now Jihadi occupied side. Genie’s “strategic advisory committee” includes Dick Cheney, Michael Steinhardt, Jacob Rothschild, Rupert Murdoch, R. James Woolsey, Jr., Lawrence Summers and Bill Richardson. That is a lot of U.S. lobbying power involved here that could influence any decision.”
    Expect more American treasure & limb squandered for the benefit of the above-listed war profiteers.

    Read More
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  33. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @mr meener
    I see no proof of god only the devil. what we did to that country is beyond description. and the neo-cohens are still prancing around like kill bill crystal. he will live to 100. even the demon mc cain who the devil is calling home is over 80. I see no demon pay for what they did here. we are to believe they pay later. I want to see them suffer immensely noe

    I see no proof of god only the devil. what we did to that country is beyond description. and the neo-cohens are still prancing around like kill bill crystal. he will live to 100. even the demon mc cain who the devil is calling home is over 80. I see no demon pay for what they did here. we are to believe they pay later. I want to see them suffer immensely noe

    If you were John McCain or any of the other neocons who pushed for all this death and destruction, how frightened would you be before shuffling off your mortal coil and entering into eternity?? And to think, some people leave this existence worried that they didn’t do enough to help others or didn’t lead as virtuous life as they could’ve and should’ve.

    Read More
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  34. woodNfish says:
    @Johann
    This year the American Empire and its War Department is celebrating the one hundredth anniversary of Preacher Wilson and his progressive comrades declaring war on Germany. Oh what a glorious war with moronic Americans singing out " Over There" from the top of their inebriated lungs. WWI was a dispute among the royal families of Europe over their various empires; indeed all of Queen Victoria's grandsons were at each other's throats. Along comes Uncle Sap and his American war lovers and bang we are into a three year old war which had already taken over a million and a half lives of young Europeans. America sends its farm boys and factory workers over three thousand miles away in order to kill "krauts" and in order to save JP Morgan and the evil bankers who had concocted up the whole war with their Brit banking buds. So the perpetual war machine of the American Empire was sent abroad and is still killing and bombing. Americans love their wars and slaughters they salute them all the time.

    Nice piece of revisionist trash there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    IOW, you just don't like it.

    No doubt this will drive you crazy:

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com


    The slimy "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
    'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, ... but, but, well, umm, we can't actually show the court. You must trust us, we're Zionists.'
     
    , @Liberty Mike
    Okay, slaver.
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  35. @The Alarmist

    "Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars."
     
    Debt is just somebody else's savings borrowed for your own purposes... when you have control of the sovereign, you can borrow on its credit to line your own pockets with little fear of having to repay that debt as long as you dress the borrowing up in noble clothing, like liberating oppressed peoples two or three times in a decade. TPTB have no worries about being held to account, because they have increased surveillance of you and your money to minimize the threat you might pose, and they have militarized the police to deal with you if that is not enough.

    The US is in debt ... So What? Who and what army are going to collect?

    If it was just a matter of the US governments at all levels defaulting on debt so the Chinese and other foreign creditors suffered large losses (and left Wall Street hugely diminished) that would indeed be a case of a banana tepublic untouchable by gunboats but the really big debt is pensions and other forms of welfare promised on the basis of an evergrowing economy and tax base large enough to pay as you go. Then perhaps the question becomes one of who is protected against the depreciation of the $ and inflation that is part of the remedy….

    Read More
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  36. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Johann
    This year the American Empire and its War Department is celebrating the one hundredth anniversary of Preacher Wilson and his progressive comrades declaring war on Germany. Oh what a glorious war with moronic Americans singing out " Over There" from the top of their inebriated lungs. WWI was a dispute among the royal families of Europe over their various empires; indeed all of Queen Victoria's grandsons were at each other's throats. Along comes Uncle Sap and his American war lovers and bang we are into a three year old war which had already taken over a million and a half lives of young Europeans. America sends its farm boys and factory workers over three thousand miles away in order to kill "krauts" and in order to save JP Morgan and the evil bankers who had concocted up the whole war with their Brit banking buds. So the perpetual war machine of the American Empire was sent abroad and is still killing and bombing. Americans love their wars and slaughters they salute them all the time.
    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    Along the lines of:

    "We're from the government and are here to help you".
    "Honest, honey, those pants don't make your butt look big".

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  37. Sparkon says:
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr “Freedom and Democracy” romp in the Middle East belongs to America.
    [...]
    Shame, shame, shame on us.

    No!

    You need to learn to paint with a much finer brush, and practice the fine art of discrimination, as in good from bad.

    Indeed, I find your broad, sweeping condemnation of all Americans for the situation in Iraq to be highly offensive, when many of us have been against the entire illegitimate adventure from the very beginning.

    So please don’t include me with the lying sacks of shit who hornswoggled the USA into attacking Iraq in 2003, most especially with George W. Bush and his Magic TV that was obviously on.

    Try to remember that millions of Americans marched in early 2003 to protest the impending invasion of Iraq, and they were joined in similar protests around the world.

    So please, don’t try to lay that guilt trip on me, or any of the many other Americans who’ve been against these foreign adventures that were kicked off by the symbolic destruction of the WTC, a televised special effects psycho-drama to herald the New World Order.

    Point your finger at the guilty parties.

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  38. peterAUS says:
    @anony-mouse
    Interesting how not one person here blames the people who actually did the killing.

    If somebody commits a crime against you I'm sure you will never blame the criminal, right?

    Military does what the top politicians tell them to do in democracies.

    Top politicians get elected by…uhm…knowledgeable citizenship.

    In urban combat, against extremely determined opponent, that’s how it works.

    Also, did the civilian population want to leave?
    Did the attacker give non-combatants time and corridor to leave before commencing combat operations?
    The most important, did the defender allow civilians to leave?

    Or, who cares.
    Just blame the bad Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    You should know "I am just following orders" is not an acceptable excuse at Nuremberg trials.
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  39. Apolonius says:
    @Joe Wong
    USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if the outcome of Iraq destroy the credibility of American power to destroy the American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    8000 servicemen and 4 trillion is a small price to pay for maintaining the credibility of American willingness to use its power. Through the wars in Iraq and surrounding areas USA has successfully remind the world there is a price to pay in challenging its eminence of world power dominance, if they cannot have it then nobody can have it. A more servile Europe, Japan, South Korea and India to the USA is the intended consequence in case you don't know.

    Europe, Japan, South Korea were conquered by US not so much by power, but by economical help. Then USA really had good reputation in the whole world.
    Now it is acting as a mad bully, in the interests of Israel. Do you think that this behaviour brings credibility to USA? Willingness to use power is very common among criminals, this is why they are so much respected?
    I guess you will say : it is for good. Which good? Yours, Iraquis, Serbs, German, whatever goods? Good is not absolute category, but depend on each actor interests. So, it is not so important for what good you are fighting, but how you are doing it. USA is doing it using lies and horrible violence, this will not augment its reputation in any way. People are not some ciphers, that can be violently molded to somebody´s liking- many tried, no one succeeded. Your panageric to power sounds somewhat infantil (“if they cannot have it, nobody can have it”). USA had credibility in whole world not only because of its power, but because of its openess, free speech, strong free economy, culture, science, etc..
    Now whole world laughs watching US congressman jumping 29 times for ovation during half hour speech of Netanyahu .
    Or listening to the donkey who is US president. Good for reputation!

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  40. Wally says:
    @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    “Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said.”

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    You mean like 13 million Germans allegedly deported from the east at 1945-46?
    , @Joe Wong
    The Iraqi bodies do not exist just like the Nazi gas chambers did not exist and Holocaust did not happen.
    , @anonymous
    Hoshyar Zebari, is a traitor KURD who is working closely with the mass murderers, US - Israel - Britain to partition Iraq. The embedded 'journalist' of the Western Intelligence Services, CIA - Mossad - MI6 does not tell you because they are part of the propaganda.
    , @Logan
    Quite agree. Tens of thousands of human bodies are darn difficult to dispose of.

    Also, human beings are quite remarkably difficult to kill. Midwest towns utterly destroyed by tornadoes, and you'd think from the pictures there must be hundreds of dead. Nope, maybe two or three.

    People have estimate up to 500,000 dead in the bombing of Dresden. Actual numbers probably around 25,000. In a large city utterly destroyed.
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  41. Wally says: • Website
    @woodNfish
    Nice piece of revisionist trash there.

    IOW, you just don’t like it.

    No doubt this will drive you crazy:

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    The slimy “Holocau$t Industry” in court:
    ‘Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, … but, but, well, umm, we can’t actually show the court. You must trust us, we’re Zionists.’

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    No one cares.
    , @woodNfish
    No, I don't have a problem with that. Jews screw up every place they go, in addition to being incredibly racist.

    I have a problem with the poster I replied to stating we declared war on Germany. We didn't. Germany first declared war on us after we declared war on Japan, then we declared war on them, but they started it.
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  42. I can’t think of another historical parallel – it’s incredible.

    ISIS bribed its way in. So they took the city in days, with almost no fighting at all.

    The city is leveled to push them out, nine months of heavy weapons, and in the end ISIS bribes its soldiers to freedom.

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  43. Ivy says:
    @Anonymous

    Along the lines of:

    “We’re from the government and are here to help you”.
    “Honest, honey, those pants don’t make your butt look big”.

    Read More
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  44. @woodNfish
    Nice piece of revisionist trash there.

    Okay, slaver.

    Read More
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  45. MEexpert says:
    @Proud_Srbin
    Is OK, this is merciful, humanitarian and democratic massacre.
    Somebody may receive Nobel Peace prize for it yet.

    Is OK, this is merciful, humanitarian and democratic massacre.
    Somebody may receive Nobel Peace prize for it yet.

    Somebody already did.

    Read More
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  46. MEexpert says:
    @Anon
    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.

    Middle east would have been much more stable if only islam wouldnt have split into the two major factions...sunnism and shiitism.

    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.I don’t know where you get your information.

    I am getting tired of pointing out to you, hundreds of times, that you have no knowledge of Middle East or Islamic history. This is a stupid and childish statement and I am being civilized about it.

    And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis,

    Please cite a reference or describe the occasion when Shiites were brutal to Sunnis? For God’s sakes if you are going to comment on this site at lease know your facts. It is better to keep quiet or you will come out looking like a fool. I know this is a statement right out of your head because even your normal source of information, i.e. Wikipedia, does not say this, unleass you have yourself added that statement to it.

    Read More
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  47. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    IOW, you just don't like it.

    No doubt this will drive you crazy:

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com


    The slimy "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
    'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, ... but, but, well, umm, we can't actually show the court. You must trust us, we're Zionists.'
     

    No one cares.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    You obviously do.

    LOL !!

    "Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish "holocaust" and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the "survivors"? Because it "dishonors the dead"? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble."

    - Gerard Menuhin / righteous Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist
     
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  48. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    "Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said."

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.

    You mean like 13 million Germans allegedly deported from the east at 1945-46?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Who are not claimed to have been murdered & buried in enormous mass graves of up to 900,000 in allegedly known centralized locations like the impossible claim of '6M Jews & 5M others'.

    Still owning you.

    See the 'holocaust' scam easily & thoroughly debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com


    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.

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  49. Wally says:
    @Anon
    And the iraqi govt was brutal because saddam (a sunni) was brutal to shiites. And he was brutal because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis, and they were brutal because earlier sunnis were brutal to shiities. And they were because earlier shiites were brutal to sunnis. This cycle probably goes back to a millenium.

    Middle east would have been much more stable if only islam wouldnt have split into the two major factions...sunnism and shiitism.

    The Middle East and the world would be much more stable if only “that shitty little country” didn’t exist.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    What should the Jews who already live there to?
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  50. Druid says:
    @Priss Factor
    ISIS never would have gotten out of control if not for Turkey and Saudis with the backing of the US.

    But if you got the power, you can get away with anything.

    It's like what the guy says in BETTER TOMATO.

    https://youtu.be/vJTerDJN1pw?t=8m2s

    You forgot the Zionists!

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  51. Druid says:
    @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    All part of the Ziofascist plan of destabilization od Israel’s neighbours ala the Yinon plan

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  52. Druid says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq.
     
    Actually, the principal reason was to put Saddam down for good, although WMD was one of several dozen stated reasons, ranging from Saddam's human rights violations to his repeated breaching of the conditions of the Gulf War I ceasefire. Of course, that Uncle Sam hadn't figured on Saddam allying with Islamists and nurturing them inside Iraq itself. These Sunni Arab Islamists formed the nucleus of the insurgency that, while they couldn't win outright, certainly wreaked havoc while they were trying. It's unfortunate that they chose to fight, and a good chunk of the 20% of the population that is Sunni Arab made common cause with them. But it was always going to come to a reckoning. That the US was involved probably gave the Sunni Arabs in Iraq a happier ending than would otherwise have been the case, if Shiites had eventually taken power through violent revolution. Still, given how fluid things are, and the amount of suffering inflicted by Sunni Arabs, first through Saddam and then through Islamists, it's quite possible that they will be expelled from Iraq through a deliberate policy of legal and social persecution, if not outright massacre.

    The consolation prize for the Sunni Arab survivors is that Germany seems to have provided them with a bolthole. Given Merkel's stated policy of not limiting refugee admissions, they might all find new homes in the EU.

    These Islamists (Isis) was a result of the destabilization by the USA and Israel

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  53. MEexpert says:
    @David
    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures. So when someone from the middle east is looking for a big number to indicate suffering, he's likely to gravitate to forty.

    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.

    Thank you David. My point exactly. Patrick Cockburn always has Kurds as sources of his information. He has been propagating their cause throughout this conflict. The West is only interested in dividing Iraq and Syria. By giving autonomy to Kurds in Iraq and Syria, they hope that the Kurds in Turkey and Iran will also demand the same autonomy, thereby weakening those countries as well. You noticed that the US has been supplying weapons to Kurds in both of these countries.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures.

    You were very explicit about the number 40 in the bible but glanced over any citation for number 40 in Quran except , as you say, “the parts copied from the Hebrew Scriptures.” The very educated people in the West do not seem to understand one simple fact. If One God created this world and He controlled the events that occurred from the day it was created, then maybe, it is possible that the accounts of those events in various books will have some similarities and that one may not have copied those events from other books.

    The Torah, the Evangel, and the Qur’an are the scriptures revealed to their respective recipients by the One God. The people of various times were constantly reminded of the events that occurred before to the earlier populations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    The Myth of the Kurdish YPG’s Moral Excellence,
    By Stephen Gowans
    full article at his blog-
    https://gowans.wordpress.com/2017/07/11/the-myth-of-the-kurdish-ypgs-moral-excellence/

    "Conclusion

    "Representing an ethnic community that comprises less than 10 percent of the Syrian population, the PKK, a Kurdish anarchist guerrilla group which operates in both Turkey and Syria, is using the United States, its Air Force, Marine Corps, Army Rangers and Special Forces troops, as a force multiplier in an effort to impose a partition of Syria in which the numerically insignificant Kurd population controls a significant part of Syria’s territory, including areas inhabited by Arabs in the majority and in which Kurds have never been in the majority. To accomplish its aims, the PKK has not only struck a deal with a despotic regime in Washington which seeks to recolonize the Arab world, but is relying on ethnic cleansing and denial of repatriation of Arabs from regions from which they’ve fled or have been driven to establish Kurdish control of northern Syria, tactics which parallel those used by Zionist forces in 1948 to create a Jewish state in Arab-majority Palestine. Washington and Israel (the latter having long maintained a semi-clandestine relationship with the Kurds) value a confederal system for Syria as a means of weakening Arab nationalist influence in Arab Asia, undermining a pole of opposition to Zionism, colonialism, and the international dictatorship of the United States. Forces which resist dictatorship, including the most odious one of all, that of the United States over much of the world, are the real champions of democracy, a category to which the PKK, as evidenced by its actions in Syria, does not belong."
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  54. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    The Middle East and the world would be much more stable if only "that shitty little country" didn't exist.

    What should the Jews who already live there to?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Delinquent Snail
    Die? Seems fair.
    , @L.K
    No one cares...
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  55. Corvinus says:
    @lavoisier
    A police state where the government lies to us with impunity.

    “A police state where the government lies to us with impunity.”

    You didn’t describe America here. In other words, you are promoting Fake News. Mommy must be proud.

    Read More
    • Replies: @woodNfish
    Yes, he described our country perfectly.
    , @Delinquent Snail
    Are you still trolling? The pay must be good....
    , @Beefcake the Mighty
    Thus spake the cuck.
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  56. woodNfish says:
    @Wally
    IOW, you just don't like it.

    No doubt this will drive you crazy:

    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com


    The slimy "Holocau$t Industry" in court:
    'Please your honor, there really are remains of millions buried in huge mass graves, we know where the mass graves are, ... but, but, well, umm, we can't actually show the court. You must trust us, we're Zionists.'
     

    No, I don’t have a problem with that. Jews screw up every place they go, in addition to being incredibly racist.

    I have a problem with the poster I replied to stating we declared war on Germany. We didn’t. Germany first declared war on us after we declared war on Japan, then we declared war on them, but they started it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Who is we?

    Britain & France declared war on Germany first after Germany's legitimate attack on Poland.

    But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland.

    Germany honored it's alliance with Japan.

    Germany honored it's alliance with Japan.
    BTW, the US was previously attacking German naval vessels and supplying Britain with war materials ... even though the US was "neutral".

    more here:
    WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum Guidelines
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewforum.php?f=20

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  57. woodNfish says:
    @Corvinus
    "A police state where the government lies to us with impunity."

    You didn't describe America here. In other words, you are promoting Fake News. Mommy must be proud.

    Yes, he described our country perfectly.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Yes, he described our country perfectly."

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.
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  58. Art says:

    Scratch 9/11 and it bleeds Jew. The hidden Jew Matrix is the insidious thing that rules America – its media shrouds its power – it has near total control on all critical issues – money and social and foreign policy. America is being whipped apart, divided and conquered by the Jews.

    Netanyahu said that 9/11 was GOOD for Israel. Is that a gross understatement or what? On 9/11 we were loved – many wars later – and now we are justly hated.

    When Netanyahu was given 29 standing ovations by congress, American reached the very lowest point in its history.

    If we are ever going to recover, we must defeat the Matrix by exposing it to the light of day.

    Peace — Art

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    • Agree: anarchyst
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  59. Joe Wong says:
    @Wally
    "Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said."

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.

    The Iraqi bodies do not exist just like the Nazi gas chambers did not exist and Holocaust did not happen.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Not sure yet about the Iraqi bodies, but the rest of what you said is exactly right, Joe.

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist / communist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
     
    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    You cannot allow the discomfort created by conditioning to guide your analyses. As with all the other forms of crimespeak, you must engage it, preferably in public, you will get used to it. First it will be hard, but with time it will get easier (it is also great fun to watch the indoctrinated respond). Somebody needs to be the first one to scream “the emperor has no clothes“. Then, once one person does it, the others realize that it is safe and more follow. The key thing here is not to allow ideological “sacred cows” to roam around your intellectual mindspace and limit you in your thinking.

    If you start with false premises, everything you subsequently extrapolate from those premises will likewise carry along the original error and thus exhibit error within themselves; aka: garbage in, garbage out.
     
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  60. RobinG says:
    @Anonymous

    Our sins have been atoned.
     
    Not at all. The atonement has just begun. Wait until bombs shatter American cities and villages, killing millions of illegal aliens and a few scattered whites. Now, THAT's atonement.

    Neither one of you knows what atonement means.

    Read More
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  61. @anony-mouse
    Interesting how not one person here blames the people who actually did the killing.

    If somebody commits a crime against you I'm sure you will never blame the criminal, right?

    A friend’s son died in Afghanistan. He has a permanent hero tribute on a street corner near here. I am sorry for them and their loss. He was duped and I have a hard time blaming a 20 year old for believing and acting on what he was told by those he loved and respected. I believed the US was an honorable country when I was his age too. Would it be helpful to tell them their son died for nothing, actually worse than nothing? I don’t know.

    Read More
    • Replies: @peterAUS
    Simplistic.

    People join armed forces for a lot of reasons, patriotism just one of them (and not necessarily the most important).
    For a lot patriotism doesn't even compute.

    Deployment is just part of the game one volunteered for.

    Getting crippled/killed is also just part of the game one volunteered for.

    And, there are...life experiences........combatants get which civilians simply can't comprehend.

    There is certain quality of life in a 'danger zone' which only great writers can describe.

    So, it's great to feel moral outrage/supperiority when discussing 'military things'.
    But that's not how that works.

    Those 'dupes' who volunteer, go through selections and training and get deployed in war zone aren't as naive and stupid as 'chattering classes' wish to believe.

    They maybe want, and get, something in life that 'civvies' just don't get.

    True, risk/reward. Those experiences vs mutilation/death.

    But, that's the game.
    , @Joe Wong
    There is nothing your can do for your friend's son, but you can help other kids by persuading your friend not to support those will continue to send American sons, daughters, fathers and mothers to commit crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes in the believe they are doing humanitarian intervention.
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  62. Joe Wong says:
    @The Alarmist

    "Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars."
     
    Debt is just somebody else's savings borrowed for your own purposes... when you have control of the sovereign, you can borrow on its credit to line your own pockets with little fear of having to repay that debt as long as you dress the borrowing up in noble clothing, like liberating oppressed peoples two or three times in a decade. TPTB have no worries about being held to account, because they have increased surveillance of you and your money to minimize the threat you might pose, and they have militarized the police to deal with you if that is not enough.

    The US is in debt ... So What? Who and what army are going to collect?

    “The US is in debt … So What? Who and what army are going to collect?” The US Treasury, Courts, Banks, Bank for International Settlements, lawyers, etc. are going to collect those debts and interests for the debt holders. As the payments for the debts eat more and more into the revenue, government will cut social and national programs to pay those debts and interests. Most governments resort to hyper inflation to handle those crunches. Life will a lot fun by then.

    On the bright side, no one in the USA will be forced to pay those debts and interests directly.

    Read More
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  63. RobinG says:
    @MEexpert

    This article appears to have a single source. No doubt lots of people were killed but a Kurd coming up with a reason to justify a federal system in Iraq is not news worthy. He would say his enemies in Baghdad were faeries or Nazis if he thought it would further his cause.
     
    Thank you David. My point exactly. Patrick Cockburn always has Kurds as sources of his information. He has been propagating their cause throughout this conflict. The West is only interested in dividing Iraq and Syria. By giving autonomy to Kurds in Iraq and Syria, they hope that the Kurds in Turkey and Iran will also demand the same autonomy, thereby weakening those countries as well. You noticed that the US has been supplying weapons to Kurds in both of these countries.

    Also, forty is a suspicious number in this case. The flood results from 40 days and nights of rain. Moses was on Mt Sinai for 40 days and nights. The children of Israel wander in the desert for 40 years. Jesus and Ezekiel both fast for 40 days and nights. Forty likewise appears constantly in the Koran, especially parts copied from the Hebrew scriptures.
     
    You were very explicit about the number 40 in the bible but glanced over any citation for number 40 in Quran except , as you say, "the parts copied from the Hebrew Scriptures." The very educated people in the West do not seem to understand one simple fact. If One God created this world and He controlled the events that occurred from the day it was created, then maybe, it is possible that the accounts of those events in various books will have some similarities and that one may not have copied those events from other books.

    The Torah, the Evangel, and the Qur'an are the scriptures revealed to their respective recipients by the One God. The people of various times were constantly reminded of the events that occurred before to the earlier populations.

    The Myth of the Kurdish YPG’s Moral Excellence,
    By Stephen Gowans
    full article at his blog-

    https://gowans.wordpress.com/2017/07/11/the-myth-of-the-kurdish-ypgs-moral-excellence/

    “Conclusion

    “Representing an ethnic community that comprises less than 10 percent of the Syrian population, the PKK, a Kurdish anarchist guerrilla group which operates in both Turkey and Syria, is using the United States, its Air Force, Marine Corps, Army Rangers and Special Forces troops, as a force multiplier in an effort to impose a partition of Syria in which the numerically insignificant Kurd population controls a significant part of Syria’s territory, including areas inhabited by Arabs in the majority and in which Kurds have never been in the majority. To accomplish its aims, the PKK has not only struck a deal with a despotic regime in Washington which seeks to recolonize the Arab world, but is relying on ethnic cleansing and denial of repatriation of Arabs from regions from which they’ve fled or have been driven to establish Kurdish control of northern Syria, tactics which parallel those used by Zionist forces in 1948 to create a Jewish state in Arab-majority Palestine. Washington and Israel (the latter having long maintained a semi-clandestine relationship with the Kurds) value a confederal system for Syria as a means of weakening Arab nationalist influence in Arab Asia, undermining a pole of opposition to Zionism, colonialism, and the international dictatorship of the United States. Forces which resist dictatorship, including the most odious one of all, that of the United States over much of the world, are the real champions of democracy, a category to which the PKK, as evidenced by its actions in Syria, does not belong.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    RobinG:

    I'm sure you know (but maybe not all UR devotees) that under the general dispensation/direction of the Ottoman authorities the Kurds carried out the actual gory details of the Armenian genocide.

    , @L.K
    Thanks for posting RobinG;

    Interestingly, a majority of the Kurdish population of Syria is made up by relatively recent waves of refugees from Turkey in the 20th Century.
    Even in the Northern Syrian provinces where they are more numerous they are still much less than half of the population.

    Unsurprisingly, Israel & world Zionism are some of the most ardent supporters for creating a Kurdish state, for obvious reasons.

    Syrian Girl Partisan, a secular Syrian Sunni girl, did a great video, explaining the Kurdish situation in Syria;
    Why Kurds must not be allowed to control north #Syria
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKZqu61IbFI

    How Kurds(in Iraq) Disarmed Assyrian Christian Then Abandoned Them To #ISIS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnsc3wkKbU
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  64. peterAUS says:
    @Craig Morris
    A friend's son died in Afghanistan. He has a permanent hero tribute on a street corner near here. I am sorry for them and their loss. He was duped and I have a hard time blaming a 20 year old for believing and acting on what he was told by those he loved and respected. I believed the US was an honorable country when I was his age too. Would it be helpful to tell them their son died for nothing, actually worse than nothing? I don't know.

    Simplistic.

    People join armed forces for a lot of reasons, patriotism just one of them (and not necessarily the most important).
    For a lot patriotism doesn’t even compute.

    Deployment is just part of the game one volunteered for.

    Getting crippled/killed is also just part of the game one volunteered for.

    And, there are…life experiences……..combatants get which civilians simply can’t comprehend.

    There is certain quality of life in a ‘danger zone’ which only great writers can describe.

    So, it’s great to feel moral outrage/supperiority when discussing ‘military things’.
    But that’s not how that works.

    Those ‘dupes’ who volunteer, go through selections and training and get deployed in war zone aren’t as naive and stupid as ‘chattering classes’ wish to believe.

    They maybe want, and get, something in life that ‘civvies’ just don’t get.

    True, risk/reward. Those experiences vs mutilation/death.

    But, that’s the game.

    Read More
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  65. Joe Wong says:
    @Craig Morris
    A friend's son died in Afghanistan. He has a permanent hero tribute on a street corner near here. I am sorry for them and their loss. He was duped and I have a hard time blaming a 20 year old for believing and acting on what he was told by those he loved and respected. I believed the US was an honorable country when I was his age too. Would it be helpful to tell them their son died for nothing, actually worse than nothing? I don't know.

    There is nothing your can do for your friend’s son, but you can help other kids by persuading your friend not to support those will continue to send American sons, daughters, fathers and mothers to commit crimes against peace, crimes against humanity and war crimes in the believe they are doing humanitarian intervention.

    Read More
    • Agree: Talha
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  66. @Corvinus
    "A police state where the government lies to us with impunity."

    You didn't describe America here. In other words, you are promoting Fake News. Mommy must be proud.

    Are you still trolling? The pay must be good….

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    He's a cuck, he does it for free.
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  67. @Anon
    What should the Jews who already live there to?

    Die? Seems fair.

    Read More
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  68. Dan Hayes says:
    @RobinG
    The Myth of the Kurdish YPG’s Moral Excellence,
    By Stephen Gowans
    full article at his blog-
    https://gowans.wordpress.com/2017/07/11/the-myth-of-the-kurdish-ypgs-moral-excellence/

    "Conclusion

    "Representing an ethnic community that comprises less than 10 percent of the Syrian population, the PKK, a Kurdish anarchist guerrilla group which operates in both Turkey and Syria, is using the United States, its Air Force, Marine Corps, Army Rangers and Special Forces troops, as a force multiplier in an effort to impose a partition of Syria in which the numerically insignificant Kurd population controls a significant part of Syria’s territory, including areas inhabited by Arabs in the majority and in which Kurds have never been in the majority. To accomplish its aims, the PKK has not only struck a deal with a despotic regime in Washington which seeks to recolonize the Arab world, but is relying on ethnic cleansing and denial of repatriation of Arabs from regions from which they’ve fled or have been driven to establish Kurdish control of northern Syria, tactics which parallel those used by Zionist forces in 1948 to create a Jewish state in Arab-majority Palestine. Washington and Israel (the latter having long maintained a semi-clandestine relationship with the Kurds) value a confederal system for Syria as a means of weakening Arab nationalist influence in Arab Asia, undermining a pole of opposition to Zionism, colonialism, and the international dictatorship of the United States. Forces which resist dictatorship, including the most odious one of all, that of the United States over much of the world, are the real champions of democracy, a category to which the PKK, as evidenced by its actions in Syria, does not belong."

    RobinG:

    I’m sure you know (but maybe not all UR devotees) that under the general dispensation/direction of the Ottoman authorities the Kurds carried out the actual gory details of the Armenian genocide.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {...the Kurds carried out the actual gory details of the Armenian genocide.}

    Partly true.
    AG was conceived, organized, and carried out primarily by Turks: Turk leaders (Enver, Talaat, and Jemal), Turk governors, Turks officers, Turk soldiers. Kurds were enthusiastic, opportunistic supporters. But Turks are the primary perpetrators, not the Kurds. Although Kurds have a lot of blood of Armenian women and children on their hands.
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  69. Joe Wong says:
    @peterAUS
    Military does what the top politicians tell them to do in democracies.

    Top politicians get elected by...uhm...knowledgeable citizenship.

    In urban combat, against extremely determined opponent, that's how it works.

    Also, did the civilian population want to leave?
    Did the attacker give non-combatants time and corridor to leave before commencing combat operations?
    The most important, did the defender allow civilians to leave?

    Or, who cares.
    Just blame the bad Americans.

    You should know “I am just following orders” is not an acceptable excuse at Nuremberg trials.

    Read More
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  70. Avery says:
    @Dan Hayes
    RobinG:

    I'm sure you know (but maybe not all UR devotees) that under the general dispensation/direction of the Ottoman authorities the Kurds carried out the actual gory details of the Armenian genocide.

    {…the Kurds carried out the actual gory details of the Armenian genocide.}

    Partly true.
    AG was conceived, organized, and carried out primarily by Turks: Turk leaders (Enver, Talaat, and Jemal), Turk governors, Turks officers, Turk soldiers. Kurds were enthusiastic, opportunistic supporters. But Turks are the primary perpetrators, not the Kurds. Although Kurds have a lot of blood of Armenian women and children on their hands.

    Read More
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  71. Wally says: • Website
    @Anon
    You mean like 13 million Germans allegedly deported from the east at 1945-46?

    Who are not claimed to have been murdered & buried in enormous mass graves of up to 900,000 in allegedly known centralized locations like the impossible claim of ’6M Jews & 5M others’.

    Still owning you.

    See the ‘holocaust’ scam easily & thoroughly debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.

    Read More
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  72. Fred777 says:

    “People join armed forces for a lot of reasons,”

    Mostly they just can’t find a job.

    Read More
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  73. Wally says: • Website
    @Joe Wong
    The Iraqi bodies do not exist just like the Nazi gas chambers did not exist and Holocaust did not happen.

    Not sure yet about the Iraqi bodies, but the rest of what you said is exactly right, Joe.

    [MORE]

    We’re talking about an alleged ’6M Jews & 5M others’ … 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist / communist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.

    The ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the ‘holocaust’ scam debunked here:

    http://codoh.com

    No name calling, level playing field debate here:

    http://forum.codoh.com

    You cannot allow the discomfort created by conditioning to guide your analyses. As with all the other forms of crimespeak, you must engage it, preferably in public, you will get used to it. First it will be hard, but with time it will get easier (it is also great fun to watch the indoctrinated respond). Somebody needs to be the first one to scream “the emperor has no clothes“. Then, once one person does it, the others realize that it is safe and more follow. The key thing here is not to allow ideological “sacred cows” to roam around your intellectual mindspace and limit you in your thinking.

    If you start with false premises, everything you subsequently extrapolate from those premises will likewise carry along the original error and thus exhibit error within themselves; aka: garbage in, garbage out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    Just so I'm clear, Zionists and communists can be dismissed out of hand, but Nazis should be trusted?
    , @Joe Wong
    Wally, You should say the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ is questionable or exaggerated but not scientifically impossible frauds; in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets within few weeks without gas chambers, Nazi and its minions were the same breed as the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese, they were out doing each other in atrocity to fill their diabolic egos, killing ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ in so many years from 1938-1945 is entirely possible, otherwise the Nazi and its minions would be a laughing stock to the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese.

    The staff in the forum.codoh.com is the same tricks used by the Japanese to white wash and deny their war crimes and crimes against humanity, by questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, …., the same morally defunct evil propaganda the American is using to wage reckless wars around the world on the moral high ground.

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  74. Wally says: • Website
    @Anon
    No one cares.

    You obviously do.

    LOL !!

    “Alone the fact that one may not question the Jewish “holocaust” and that Jewish pressure has inflicted laws on democratic societies to prevent questions—while incessant promotion and indoctrination of the same averredly incontestable ‘holocaust’ occur—gives the game away. It proves that it must be a lie. Why else would one not be allowed to question it? Because it might offend the “survivors”? Because it “dishonors the dead”? Hardly sufficient reason to outlaw discussion. No, because the exposure of this leading lie might precipitate questions about so many other lies and cause the whole ramshackle fabrication to crumble.”

    - Gerard Menuhin / righteous Revisionist Jew, son of famous violinist

    Read More
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  75. Wally says:
    @woodNfish
    No, I don't have a problem with that. Jews screw up every place they go, in addition to being incredibly racist.

    I have a problem with the poster I replied to stating we declared war on Germany. We didn't. Germany first declared war on us after we declared war on Japan, then we declared war on them, but they started it.

    Who is we?

    Britain & France declared war on Germany first after Germany’s legitimate attack on Poland.

    But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland.

    Germany honored it’s alliance with Japan.

    Germany honored it’s alliance with Japan.
    BTW, the US was previously attacking German naval vessels and supplying Britain with war materials … even though the US was “neutral”.

    more here:
    WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum Guidelines

    http://forum.codoh.com/viewforum.php?f=20

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland."

    Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    "After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant "peace in our time!" But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)..."

    Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies. A telling little detail about Poland. http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/161726/poland-destroys-soviet-war-memorial http://www.dw.com/en/poland-plans-to-tear-down-hundreds-of-soviet-memorials/a-19185159
    Would you trust this kind of "ally?"

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  76. L.K says:
    @Anon
    What should the Jews who already live there to?

    No one cares…

    Read More
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  77. @Johann
    This year the American Empire and its War Department is celebrating the one hundredth anniversary of Preacher Wilson and his progressive comrades declaring war on Germany. Oh what a glorious war with moronic Americans singing out " Over There" from the top of their inebriated lungs. WWI was a dispute among the royal families of Europe over their various empires; indeed all of Queen Victoria's grandsons were at each other's throats. Along comes Uncle Sap and his American war lovers and bang we are into a three year old war which had already taken over a million and a half lives of young Europeans. America sends its farm boys and factory workers over three thousand miles away in order to kill "krauts" and in order to save JP Morgan and the evil bankers who had concocted up the whole war with their Brit banking buds. So the perpetual war machine of the American Empire was sent abroad and is still killing and bombing. Americans love their wars and slaughters they salute them all the time.
    Read More
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  78. @Corvinus
    "A police state where the government lies to us with impunity."

    You didn't describe America here. In other words, you are promoting Fake News. Mommy must be proud.

    Thus spake the cuck.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Thus spake the cuck."

    I see that you finally relented (gave in) and procured (to acquire) WordPower. But you still have a long ways to go to intelligently articulate (speak) your thoughts. Keep trying!

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  79. @Delinquent Snail
    Are you still trolling? The pay must be good....

    He’s a cuck, he does it for free.

    Read More
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  80. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    Not sure yet about the Iraqi bodies, but the rest of what you said is exactly right, Joe.

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist / communist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
     
    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    You cannot allow the discomfort created by conditioning to guide your analyses. As with all the other forms of crimespeak, you must engage it, preferably in public, you will get used to it. First it will be hard, but with time it will get easier (it is also great fun to watch the indoctrinated respond). Somebody needs to be the first one to scream “the emperor has no clothes“. Then, once one person does it, the others realize that it is safe and more follow. The key thing here is not to allow ideological “sacred cows” to roam around your intellectual mindspace and limit you in your thinking.

    If you start with false premises, everything you subsequently extrapolate from those premises will likewise carry along the original error and thus exhibit error within themselves; aka: garbage in, garbage out.
     

    Just so I’m clear, Zionists and communists can be dismissed out of hand, but Nazis should be trusted?

    Read More
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  81. Corvinus says:
    @woodNfish
    Yes, he described our country perfectly.

    “Yes, he described our country perfectly.”

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.
     
    The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes. So does a dictator of any of the above countries. The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States. The press does the bidding of the government. No free press. People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause. Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government's request to inspect it.

    Talks like a duck, walks like a duck..... Sounds like a police state to me.
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  82. Corvinus says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    Thus spake the cuck.

    “Thus spake the cuck.”

    I see that you finally relented (gave in) and procured (to acquire) WordPower. But you still have a long ways to go to intelligently articulate (speak) your thoughts. Keep trying!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Thanks, I will. And I'm sure you'll keep cucking.
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  83. @Corvinus
    "Thus spake the cuck."

    I see that you finally relented (gave in) and procured (to acquire) WordPower. But you still have a long ways to go to intelligently articulate (speak) your thoughts. Keep trying!

    Thanks, I will. And I’m sure you’ll keep cucking.

    Read More
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  84. Joe Wong says:
    @Wally
    Not sure yet about the Iraqi bodies, but the rest of what you said is exactly right, Joe.

    We're talking about an alleged '6M Jews & 5M others' ... 11,000,000.
    There is not a single verifiable excavated enormous mass grave with contents actually SHOWN, not just claimed, (recall the claim of 900,000 buried at Treblinka, 1,250,000 at Auschwitz, or 250,000 at Sobibor, 34,000 at Babi Yar) even though Jews claim they still exist and claim to know exactly where these alleged enormous mass graves are.
    Note: actually show us excavations & their contents, not some Zionist / communist liar claiming mass graves where none exist, and not showing the alleged, verifiable enormous human remains of Jews.
     
    The '6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers' are scientifically impossible frauds.
    see the 'holocaust' scam debunked here:
    http://codoh.com
    No name calling, level playing field debate here:
    http://forum.codoh.com

    You cannot allow the discomfort created by conditioning to guide your analyses. As with all the other forms of crimespeak, you must engage it, preferably in public, you will get used to it. First it will be hard, but with time it will get easier (it is also great fun to watch the indoctrinated respond). Somebody needs to be the first one to scream “the emperor has no clothes“. Then, once one person does it, the others realize that it is safe and more follow. The key thing here is not to allow ideological “sacred cows” to roam around your intellectual mindspace and limit you in your thinking.

    If you start with false premises, everything you subsequently extrapolate from those premises will likewise carry along the original error and thus exhibit error within themselves; aka: garbage in, garbage out.
     

    Wally, You should say the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ is questionable or exaggerated but not scientifically impossible frauds; in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets within few weeks without gas chambers, Nazi and its minions were the same breed as the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese, they were out doing each other in atrocity to fill their diabolic egos, killing ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ in so many years from 1938-1945 is entirely possible, otherwise the Nazi and its minions would be a laughing stock to the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese.

    The staff in the forum.codoh.com is the same tricks used by the Japanese to white wash and deny their war crimes and crimes against humanity, by questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, …., the same morally defunct evil propaganda the American is using to wage reckless wars around the world on the moral high ground.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Joe Wong: "in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets.."

    Oh, please, your highly emotional statement is RIDICULOUS & laughable.

    The Nanking massacre atrocity tale as told to us is just that; war propaganda. The same for the holohoax, about which you clearly don't know jack.

    And no, I'm not Japanese.
    , @anarchyst
    I must disagree with your assertion that codoh uses "tricks" in its demand for holocaust ™ accountability.
    It is the holocaust ™ promoters along with many western European (and Canadian) governments that have criminalized any deviation from official holocaust ™ orthodoxy. WHY? Kangaroo courts in these countries are used to prosecute honest people for "incorrect thinking".
    In fact, in these kangaroo courts, defendants ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTRODUCE INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF and evidence into the court record while the plaintiffs and the prosecution can introduce questionable, and outright falsehoods into "evidence" without having to show any "proof".
    The holocaust ™ industry sees its "cash cow" finally getting the scrutiny that it should have gotten all along, and it does not like it, and will do anything in order to quash any evidence that proves that it is a hoax.
    FOLLOW THE MONEY...
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  85. A A h says:

    Millions of children’s in middle east who born in this american incubator at last one or two decades .. hungrise , angrie’s , did not see other than sluoghtering and killing , poveries , tent’s etc.
    A new generations of untolerable groups will come out of these countries .
    They will have nothing to worry about , no homes , no futures and no hopes .
    Americans could bring the justice to this region , but unfortunately they brought and supported the Israeli terrorism and the Arab dectatorship .
    What could the americans citizens expect from their govenments of these policies to bring ?
    I am still sure that the Americans represented by their wise groups will understand before time get too late .

    Read More
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  86. L.K says:
    @Joe Wong
    Wally, You should say the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ is questionable or exaggerated but not scientifically impossible frauds; in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets within few weeks without gas chambers, Nazi and its minions were the same breed as the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese, they were out doing each other in atrocity to fill their diabolic egos, killing ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ in so many years from 1938-1945 is entirely possible, otherwise the Nazi and its minions would be a laughing stock to the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese.

    The staff in the forum.codoh.com is the same tricks used by the Japanese to white wash and deny their war crimes and crimes against humanity, by questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, …., the same morally defunct evil propaganda the American is using to wage reckless wars around the world on the moral high ground.

    Joe Wong: “in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets..”

    Oh, please, your highly emotional statement is RIDICULOUS & laughable.

    The Nanking massacre atrocity tale as told to us is just that; war propaganda. The same for the holohoax, about which you clearly don’t know jack.

    And no, I’m not Japanese.

    Read More
    • Agree: Beefcake the Mighty
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Neither Wally is Japanese, but both the American and the Japanese share the same common interest, they have to white wash their crimes against humanity, crimes against peace and war crimes they have been committing by denying their ugly past and legitimize their white washing techniques like those used in forum.codoh.com, questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, ….

    The amount of Nazi and unrepentant war criminal Japanese American absorbed as vanguards for their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American's claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly you are not helping to disperse that doubt.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  87. anarchyst says:
    @Joe Wong
    Wally, You should say the ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ is questionable or exaggerated but not scientifically impossible frauds; in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets within few weeks without gas chambers, Nazi and its minions were the same breed as the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese, they were out doing each other in atrocity to fill their diabolic egos, killing ’6M Jews, 5M others, & gas chambers’ in so many years from 1938-1945 is entirely possible, otherwise the Nazi and its minions would be a laughing stock to the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese.

    The staff in the forum.codoh.com is the same tricks used by the Japanese to white wash and deny their war crimes and crimes against humanity, by questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, …., the same morally defunct evil propaganda the American is using to wage reckless wars around the world on the moral high ground.

    I must disagree with your assertion that codoh uses “tricks” in its demand for holocaust ™ accountability.
    It is the holocaust ™ promoters along with many western European (and Canadian) governments that have criminalized any deviation from official holocaust ™ orthodoxy. WHY? Kangaroo courts in these countries are used to prosecute honest people for “incorrect thinking”.
    In fact, in these kangaroo courts, defendants ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTRODUCE INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF and evidence into the court record while the plaintiffs and the prosecution can introduce questionable, and outright falsehoods into “evidence” without having to show any “proof”.
    The holocaust ™ industry sees its “cash cow” finally getting the scrutiny that it should have gotten all along, and it does not like it, and will do anything in order to quash any evidence that proves that it is a hoax.
    FOLLOW THE MONEY…

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Japanese will appreciate your creative narrative, they definitely will use it to enhance their already rich arsenal for white washing, denying and glossing over their war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace.

    Or maybe you are copying from the Japanese, because Japanese courts have been denying their war victims suing Japanese government and corporations for the harms and damages they have done to them during the WWII and before. It seems the courts in the USA, Canada and Japan are all the same, they are Kangaroo courts.
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  88. L.K says:
    @RobinG
    The Myth of the Kurdish YPG’s Moral Excellence,
    By Stephen Gowans
    full article at his blog-
    https://gowans.wordpress.com/2017/07/11/the-myth-of-the-kurdish-ypgs-moral-excellence/

    "Conclusion

    "Representing an ethnic community that comprises less than 10 percent of the Syrian population, the PKK, a Kurdish anarchist guerrilla group which operates in both Turkey and Syria, is using the United States, its Air Force, Marine Corps, Army Rangers and Special Forces troops, as a force multiplier in an effort to impose a partition of Syria in which the numerically insignificant Kurd population controls a significant part of Syria’s territory, including areas inhabited by Arabs in the majority and in which Kurds have never been in the majority. To accomplish its aims, the PKK has not only struck a deal with a despotic regime in Washington which seeks to recolonize the Arab world, but is relying on ethnic cleansing and denial of repatriation of Arabs from regions from which they’ve fled or have been driven to establish Kurdish control of northern Syria, tactics which parallel those used by Zionist forces in 1948 to create a Jewish state in Arab-majority Palestine. Washington and Israel (the latter having long maintained a semi-clandestine relationship with the Kurds) value a confederal system for Syria as a means of weakening Arab nationalist influence in Arab Asia, undermining a pole of opposition to Zionism, colonialism, and the international dictatorship of the United States. Forces which resist dictatorship, including the most odious one of all, that of the United States over much of the world, are the real champions of democracy, a category to which the PKK, as evidenced by its actions in Syria, does not belong."

    Thanks for posting RobinG;

    Interestingly, a majority of the Kurdish population of Syria is made up by relatively recent waves of refugees from Turkey in the 20th Century.
    Even in the Northern Syrian provinces where they are more numerous they are still much less than half of the population.

    Unsurprisingly, Israel & world Zionism are some of the most ardent supporters for creating a Kurdish state, for obvious reasons.

    Syrian Girl Partisan, a secular Syrian Sunni girl, did a great video, explaining the Kurdish situation in Syria;
    Why Kurds must not be allowed to control north #Syria

    How Kurds(in Iraq) Disarmed Assyrian Christian Then Abandoned Them To #ISIS

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
    L.K. and RobinG:

    Thank you for more information on the nefarious Kurds, America's ally in Democracy!

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  89. Dan Hayes says:
    @L.K
    Thanks for posting RobinG;

    Interestingly, a majority of the Kurdish population of Syria is made up by relatively recent waves of refugees from Turkey in the 20th Century.
    Even in the Northern Syrian provinces where they are more numerous they are still much less than half of the population.

    Unsurprisingly, Israel & world Zionism are some of the most ardent supporters for creating a Kurdish state, for obvious reasons.

    Syrian Girl Partisan, a secular Syrian Sunni girl, did a great video, explaining the Kurdish situation in Syria;
    Why Kurds must not be allowed to control north #Syria
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKZqu61IbFI

    How Kurds(in Iraq) Disarmed Assyrian Christian Then Abandoned Them To #ISIS
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWnsc3wkKbU

    L.K. and RobinG:

    Thank you for more information on the nefarious Kurds, America’s ally in Democracy!

    Read More
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  90. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    The embedded ‘journalist’ of the Western intelligence services is giving quotes from the kurds in Iraq to attack Iraqi government, but leave the responsible party – US-Israel-Britain – untouched – to prove his point.
    Now, that Iraq and Syria are pushing back the western terrorists, ISIS, these embedded journalists, including Cockburn, are attacking them forgetting the responsible parties who invaded Iraq, Syria, Libya, Afghanistan, Palestine, Somali, Sudan, Lebanon and elsewhere. Now the same embedded ‘journalists’ including Cockburn, are glorifying their Kurdish terrorists and hiding their crimes against humanity. Shame on you all.

    Kurds are involved in torturing, killing, and forcing indigenous population out to steal land from others, like THE CRIMINAL ZIONIST JEWS.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2017/07/11/video-shows-us-backed-syrian-kurds-torturing-detainees/

    Kurds are US/Israel trained terrorists working with the US invaders, mass murderers, and thieves, to steal lands from Syrian, Iraqi and other indigenous population of the region, to help the imperialist and Zionist agenda in the region which is an act of TREASON.
    Sarah Abed writes:

    {The U.S.-led coalition of war criminals is using elements of Syria’s Kurdish population to achieve its goal of destroying the non-belligerent, democratic country of Syria, led by its popular, democratically-elected President Bashar al-Assad. Washington seeks to create sectarianism and ethnic divides in a country that, prior to the Western-launched war, had neither.}

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-kurds-washingtons-weapon-of-mass-destabilization-in-the-middle-east/5599207

    The traitor Kurds is carrying terrorist operation in Iraq, Syria, Iran, and Turkey to expand their territory. The American mass murderers have already taken parts of the Syrian lands with the help of terrorist Kurds in the war against Syrian government and Iraq to be used as military bases.

    Pentagon Furious After Turkey Leaks U.S. Base Locations in Syria: “Hard Not to See This as a F-You”

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/pentagon-furious-after-turkey-leaks-u-s-base-locations-in-syria-hard-not-to-see-this-as-a-f-you/5600217

    This is ACT OF TREASON AND IS PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION in majority of the countries around the world, including the United States. On what basis the traitor kurds are helping the enemy to take over Syrian lands? The traitor kurds are carrying their terror operation, ISIS style, into Iran where recently killed over 18 innocent Iranians and wounded many more, in Tehran.

    NYT wrote: Iranian Kurds are implicated in terror attack in Tehran.

    http://news.antiwar.com/2017/07/11/video-shows-us-backed-syrian-kurds-torturing-detainees/

    The traitor Kurds repeatedly have asked Pentagon to arm them to fight for the US imperialism to kill Iranian people by killing people. If you watch VOA you can see for yourself that these traitors inviting enemy to invade country after country including Iraq and Syria.

    Read More
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  91. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    TEHRAN — The Iranian authorities arrested 41 people Friday in connection with the twin terrorist attacks in Tehran this week, the semiofficial Fars News Agency reported, as evidence mounted that Iranian Kurds affiliated with the Islamic State had carried out the assault.

    The men who made their way through the Parliament building on Wednesday, shooting assault rifles, throwing grenades and searching for a way into the main hall, were probably Iranian Kurds, security sources say, though only one has been identified. One of the two assailants at a shrine is understood to be an Iranian Kurd, the security sources said.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/09/world/middleeast/iran-attack-isis-terrorism.html?mcubz=0

    Read More
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  92. MEexpert says:
    @Corvinus
    "Yes, he described our country perfectly."

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.

    The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes. So does a dictator of any of the above countries. The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States. The press does the bidding of the government. No free press. People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause. Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government’s request to inspect it.

    Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. Sounds like a police state to me.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes."

    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.

    "The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States."

    Under certain conditions.

    "The press does the bidding of the government."

    That would Fake News.

    "No free press."

    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.

    "People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause."

    You mean probable cause.

    "Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government’s request to inspect it."

    Under certain conditions.

    "Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. Sounds like a police state to me."

    You really quack me up.
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  93. @Patriot
    The ultimate blame for the ~2 million dead, ~2million wounded, 5,000 destroyed cities and villages, and 20 to 40 million refugies, during our 16-yr "Freedom and Democracy" romp in the Middle East belongs to America.

    Shame, shame, shame on us. Untold misery and suffering, caused by our leaders. And for what? What did the USA gain from al of this, other than 8,000 service members dead and a 4 trillion Dollar debt?

    The blame falls squarely and solely on American leadership from both parties, their deep-state cronies, and the complicit, chattering commentariat pushing them all to the edge. The only man standing outside this hellstorm of perversion and cynicism has been Trump.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Cato

    The only man standing outside this hellstorm of perversion and cynicism has been Trump.
     
    [rising then fading Bronx cheer]. You are one of the last true believers IP. At this point, he has broken every promise, even the easiest ones (tax changes, the Wall, friendship with Russia). We were conned. Next time, we shouldn't vote for a billionaire.
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  94. annamaria says:
    @Wally
    Who is we?

    Britain & France declared war on Germany first after Germany's legitimate attack on Poland.

    But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland.

    Germany honored it's alliance with Japan.

    Germany honored it's alliance with Japan.
    BTW, the US was previously attacking German naval vessels and supplying Britain with war materials ... even though the US was "neutral".

    more here:
    WWII Europe / Atlantic Theater Revisionist Forum Guidelines
    http://forum.codoh.com/viewforum.php?f=20

    “But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland.”

    Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    “After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant “peace in our time!” But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)…”

    Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies. A telling little detail about Poland. http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/161726/poland-destroys-soviet-war-memorial http://www.dw.com/en/poland-plans-to-tear-down-hundreds-of-soviet-memorials/a-19185159
    Would you trust this kind of “ally?”

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Annamaria: "Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies"

    Listen, Anna,

    Only someone who has been totally brainwashed by idiotic Russian propaganda, could possibly write something as ridiculous as the above.

    Liberation of Poland??? Are you freaking kidding me? Your Soviet heroes, under the brutal Stalin regime, invaded Poland in September of 39.
    They invaded and occupied a bunch of other countries too, even Iran(with the British)!

    At the end of the war, the Soviets occupied Poland and turned it into a puppet state.
    These are all hard facts.
    If I were from Poland, I'd tear them "monuments" down myself. Send them to Russia if they wanna keep them...
    My point is not the Polish are saints but rather that your Mickey Mouse narrative is pure Russian propaganda.

    Yes, Anna, the Soviets were on the winning side of the war, and they and their modern heir, the Russian Federation, lie about it, just like the victorious Western powers and the zionists do, to present themselves in the best possible light, while presenting their defeated enemies as comic book cartoon villains.

    Wise up.

    P.S. Czechoslovakia was an artificial state, so much so that it does not exist any more... and the evil natzee cannibals had nothing to do with that.
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  95. Cato says:
    @Internet Partisan
    The blame falls squarely and solely on American leadership from both parties, their deep-state cronies, and the complicit, chattering commentariat pushing them all to the edge. The only man standing outside this hellstorm of perversion and cynicism has been Trump.

    The only man standing outside this hellstorm of perversion and cynicism has been Trump.

    [rising then fading Bronx cheer]. You are one of the last true believers IP. At this point, he has broken every promise, even the easiest ones (tax changes, the Wall, friendship with Russia). We were conned. Next time, we shouldn’t vote for a billionaire.

    Read More
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  96. Joe Wong says:
    @L.K
    Joe Wong: "in the Nanking massacre the barbaric and beastly unrepentant war criminal Japanese had massacred nearly 400,000 just using Samurai swords and bayonets.."

    Oh, please, your highly emotional statement is RIDICULOUS & laughable.

    The Nanking massacre atrocity tale as told to us is just that; war propaganda. The same for the holohoax, about which you clearly don't know jack.

    And no, I'm not Japanese.

    Neither Wally is Japanese, but both the American and the Japanese share the same common interest, they have to white wash their crimes against humanity, crimes against peace and war crimes they have been committing by denying their ugly past and legitimize their white washing techniques like those used in forum.codoh.com, questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, ….

    The amount of Nazi and unrepentant war criminal Japanese American absorbed as vanguards for their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American’s claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly you are not helping to disperse that doubt.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    He question is not whether the Germans and Japanese did some very bad things during WW2, they clearly did, the question is whether those things have been grossly exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Whatever happened at Nanking, the official account is as absurd and unbelievable as claims about places like Babi Yar.
    , @annamaria
    "...their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American’s claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly, you are not helping to disperse that doubt."
    The US had been tacitly cooperating with German Nazis immediately after the WWII.
    The US had been openly cooperating with Ukrainian neo-Nazi when implementing the regime change in Ukraine in 2014.
    The US is currently cooperating with Poland that, at the present time, is busy with the dismantling the WWII memorials to those Soviet soldiers who died for the liberation of Poland from Nazism (some 600000 Soviet soldiers died in Poland while fighting the Nazi armies).
    There are more signs that the US has been quite frivolous re Nazis immediately after the WWII and that the US is even more frivolous re neo-Nazism today.
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  97. Joe Wong says:
    @anarchyst
    I must disagree with your assertion that codoh uses "tricks" in its demand for holocaust ™ accountability.
    It is the holocaust ™ promoters along with many western European (and Canadian) governments that have criminalized any deviation from official holocaust ™ orthodoxy. WHY? Kangaroo courts in these countries are used to prosecute honest people for "incorrect thinking".
    In fact, in these kangaroo courts, defendants ARE NOT ALLOWED TO INTRODUCE INCONTROVERTIBLE PROOF and evidence into the court record while the plaintiffs and the prosecution can introduce questionable, and outright falsehoods into "evidence" without having to show any "proof".
    The holocaust ™ industry sees its "cash cow" finally getting the scrutiny that it should have gotten all along, and it does not like it, and will do anything in order to quash any evidence that proves that it is a hoax.
    FOLLOW THE MONEY...

    Japanese will appreciate your creative narrative, they definitely will use it to enhance their already rich arsenal for white washing, denying and glossing over their war crimes, crimes against humanity and crimes against peace.

    Or maybe you are copying from the Japanese, because Japanese courts have been denying their war victims suing Japanese government and corporations for the harms and damages they have done to them during the WWII and before. It seems the courts in the USA, Canada and Japan are all the same, they are Kangaroo courts.

    Read More
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  98. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Nice to see everyone is blaming America again.

    The shocking thing in my eyes is how these soldiers are heartless greedy and corrupt enough to extort vast sums of money from their fellow citizens who are already suffering the darkest days of their lives. It’s animalistic, demonic, and destines their people and their nation to eternal servitude. Arabs are such disgusting people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    "heartless greedy and corrupt enough to extort vast sums of money from their fellow citizens who are already suffering the darkest days of their lives."

    This could actually describe the lot of the majority of American citizens who have had to endure years of declining incomes and purchasing power, failing infrastructure and services all at the same time that an ever increasing amount of money is taken from them both directly and indirectly to service a heartless, greedy and corrupt military complex.

    Ironic isn't it? however, I wouldn't say that Americans are disgusting people just because they are being exploited nor would I say it about arabs for the very same reason.
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  99. @Joe Wong
    Neither Wally is Japanese, but both the American and the Japanese share the same common interest, they have to white wash their crimes against humanity, crimes against peace and war crimes they have been committing by denying their ugly past and legitimize their white washing techniques like those used in forum.codoh.com, questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, ….

    The amount of Nazi and unrepentant war criminal Japanese American absorbed as vanguards for their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American's claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly you are not helping to disperse that doubt.

    He question is not whether the Germans and Japanese did some very bad things during WW2, they clearly did, the question is whether those things have been grossly exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Whatever happened at Nanking, the official account is as absurd and unbelievable as claims about places like Babi Yar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    The casualty during the eight years of against Japanese invasion war was 30 millions to 60 millions of Chinese, Nanjing Masscare was completely within the scope of the Japanese barbarism. Nanjing was a ghost city after the Japanese had gone through their genocide.

    In the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall there are names of victims, photos taken by the American and Japanese, Japanese soldiers' diaries, Japanese newspaper records, artifacts, Japanese war criminal confessions, ... You need to go to the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall to get a reality check so the Americans and their Five Eyes partners will stop calling bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation as humanitarian intervention.
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  100. annamaria says:
    @Joe Wong
    Neither Wally is Japanese, but both the American and the Japanese share the same common interest, they have to white wash their crimes against humanity, crimes against peace and war crimes they have been committing by denying their ugly past and legitimize their white washing techniques like those used in forum.codoh.com, questioning the minute details, presenting false evidence, watering down events, outright denial, pointing fingers, accusing victim aggressively, ….

    The amount of Nazi and unrepentant war criminal Japanese American absorbed as vanguards for their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American's claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly you are not helping to disperse that doubt.

    “…their reckless global full spectrum dominance conquest since the end of WWII makes one always wonder how much truth in American’s claim that they joined the WWII was for liberty and defeating fascism. Certainly, you are not helping to disperse that doubt.”
    The US had been tacitly cooperating with German Nazis immediately after the WWII.
    The US had been openly cooperating with Ukrainian neo-Nazi when implementing the regime change in Ukraine in 2014.
    The US is currently cooperating with Poland that, at the present time, is busy with the dismantling the WWII memorials to those Soviet soldiers who died for the liberation of Poland from Nazism (some 600000 Soviet soldiers died in Poland while fighting the Nazi armies).
    There are more signs that the US has been quite frivolous re Nazis immediately after the WWII and that the US is even more frivolous re neo-Nazism today.

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  101. Joe Wong says:
    @Beefcake the Mighty
    He question is not whether the Germans and Japanese did some very bad things during WW2, they clearly did, the question is whether those things have been grossly exaggerated for propaganda purposes. Whatever happened at Nanking, the official account is as absurd and unbelievable as claims about places like Babi Yar.

    The casualty during the eight years of against Japanese invasion war was 30 millions to 60 millions of Chinese, Nanjing Masscare was completely within the scope of the Japanese barbarism. Nanjing was a ghost city after the Japanese had gone through their genocide.

    In the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall there are names of victims, photos taken by the American and Japanese, Japanese soldiers’ diaries, Japanese newspaper records, artifacts, Japanese war criminal confessions, … You need to go to the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall to get a reality check so the Americans and their Five Eyes partners will stop calling bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation as humanitarian intervention.

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    • Replies: @Beefcake the Mighty
    Not even sure where to start with this, but accuracy aside I suspect you're conflating Chinese casualties during the civil war there with the Japanese occupation. Kind of like how any Jew who died, of whatever cause, during the war is a "Holocaust victim".
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  102. @Joe Wong
    The casualty during the eight years of against Japanese invasion war was 30 millions to 60 millions of Chinese, Nanjing Masscare was completely within the scope of the Japanese barbarism. Nanjing was a ghost city after the Japanese had gone through their genocide.

    In the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall there are names of victims, photos taken by the American and Japanese, Japanese soldiers' diaries, Japanese newspaper records, artifacts, Japanese war criminal confessions, ... You need to go to the Nanjing Massacre Memorial Hall to get a reality check so the Americans and their Five Eyes partners will stop calling bombing, killing and waterboarding on the fabricated phantom WMD allegation as humanitarian intervention.

    Not even sure where to start with this, but accuracy aside I suspect you’re conflating Chinese casualties during the civil war there with the Japanese occupation. Kind of like how any Jew who died, of whatever cause, during the war is a “Holocaust victim”.

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  103. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    "Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said."

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.

    Hoshyar Zebari, is a traitor KURD who is working closely with the mass murderers, US – Israel – Britain to partition Iraq. The embedded ‘journalist’ of the Western Intelligence Services, CIA – Mossad – MI6 does not tell you because they are part of the propaganda.

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  104. Corvinus says:
    @MEexpert

    The Pinochet military dictatorship in Chile 1973-74, the Franco dictatorship in Spain, Cuba in 1980s, Nicaragua in 1979, and Grenada in 1983 are examples of police states. America clearly does not meet that criteria.
     
    The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes. So does a dictator of any of the above countries. The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States. The press does the bidding of the government. No free press. People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause. Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government's request to inspect it.

    Talks like a duck, walks like a duck..... Sounds like a police state to me.

    “The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes.”

    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.

    “The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States.”

    Under certain conditions.

    “The press does the bidding of the government.”

    That would Fake News.

    “No free press.”

    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.

    “People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause.”

    You mean probable cause.

    “Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government’s request to inspect it.”

    Under certain conditions.

    “Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. Sounds like a police state to me.”

    You really quack me up.

    Read More
    • Troll: L.K
    • Replies: @MEexpert


    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.
     
    Obama's list was not authorized by anyone. That list was made in the White House and included US citizens as well as non-citizens and they could be executed anywhere in the world. That is worse than ditatorship.

    “The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States.”
    Under certain conditions.
     
    NSA has been spying on the citizens without any cause for a long time. Also true for CIA and FBI. What conditions are you talking about. You are guessing. I am talking about facts.

    “The press does the bidding of the government.”
    That would Fake News.
     
    How is that fake news?

    “No free press.”
    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.
     
    Try sending these comments to the NYT and WaPo and see if they publish it. The MSM is doing the Israeli/neocon bidding and will not publish anything against Israel. That is not free press in my books.

    “People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause.”
    You mean probable cause.
     
    Where have you been hybernating? Have you heard of the Patriot Act? The citizens of this nation have lost all liberties and you are taking about probable cause. These days no cause is probable cause.

    You keep repeating "under certain conditions." Those conditions are whatever the government says they are. You have no say over them and you can't complain about them.

    A Police State is defined as "A government or state that exercies power arbitrarily through the power of the police force." In this case police force will include the NSA, CIA, FBI, the TSA, and other intelligence agencies.

    I say it again,

    “Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. ”
     

     
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  105. L.K says:
    @annamaria
    "But Britain and France did not declare war on the communist USSR, who invaded Poland."

    Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    "After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant "peace in our time!" But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)..."

    Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies. A telling little detail about Poland. http://www.worldbulletin.net/news/161726/poland-destroys-soviet-war-memorial http://www.dw.com/en/poland-plans-to-tear-down-hundreds-of-soviet-memorials/a-19185159
    Would you trust this kind of "ally?"

    Annamaria: “Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies”

    Listen, Anna,

    Only someone who has been totally brainwashed by idiotic Russian propaganda, could possibly write something as ridiculous as the above.

    Liberation of Poland??? Are you freaking kidding me? Your Soviet heroes, under the brutal Stalin regime, invaded Poland in September of 39.
    They invaded and occupied a bunch of other countries too, even Iran(with the British)!

    At the end of the war, the Soviets occupied Poland and turned it into a puppet state.
    These are all hard facts.
    If I were from Poland, I’d tear them “monuments” down myself. Send them to Russia if they wanna keep them…
    My point is not the Polish are saints but rather that your Mickey Mouse narrative is pure Russian propaganda.

    Yes, Anna, the Soviets were on the winning side of the war, and they and their modern heir, the Russian Federation, lie about it, just like the victorious Western powers and the zionists do, to present themselves in the best possible light, while presenting their defeated enemies as comic book cartoon villains.

    Wise up.

    P.S. Czechoslovakia was an artificial state, so much so that it does not exist any more… and the evil natzee cannibals had nothing to do with that.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    What's wrong with presenting a fact? - "Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    “After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant “peace in our time!” But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)…”

    These facts have some bias or what? Sure, the Ukrainian neo-Nazi (and Kagans' clan) are in total accord with you -- all Russians are bad, very bad. Here is an Israel-firster filing, today, the "Article of Impeachment (H. Res. 438) against President Donald J. Trump for High Crimes and Misdemeanors," while, at the same time, it was found that the Russophobic McCain has been implicated, from the get-go, in commissioning and concocting the infamous dossier on Trump.
    There is no USSR anymore - it ceased to exist 30 years ago. As for your cheerleading for desecrating the soldiers' graves because of the wrong government, please tell us about your attitude towards Jewish cemeteries in the context of the USSLiberty slaughter as well as about your attitude to the German cemeteries and Bandera grave n the context of D-Day.

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  106. annamaria says:
    @L.K
    Annamaria: "Currently, Poland is busy with demolishing the monuments to those Soviet soldiers (some 600.000 of them) who died during the liberation of Poland from Nazi armies"

    Listen, Anna,

    Only someone who has been totally brainwashed by idiotic Russian propaganda, could possibly write something as ridiculous as the above.

    Liberation of Poland??? Are you freaking kidding me? Your Soviet heroes, under the brutal Stalin regime, invaded Poland in September of 39.
    They invaded and occupied a bunch of other countries too, even Iran(with the British)!

    At the end of the war, the Soviets occupied Poland and turned it into a puppet state.
    These are all hard facts.
    If I were from Poland, I'd tear them "monuments" down myself. Send them to Russia if they wanna keep them...
    My point is not the Polish are saints but rather that your Mickey Mouse narrative is pure Russian propaganda.

    Yes, Anna, the Soviets were on the winning side of the war, and they and their modern heir, the Russian Federation, lie about it, just like the victorious Western powers and the zionists do, to present themselves in the best possible light, while presenting their defeated enemies as comic book cartoon villains.

    Wise up.

    P.S. Czechoslovakia was an artificial state, so much so that it does not exist any more... and the evil natzee cannibals had nothing to do with that.

    What’s wrong with presenting a fact? – “Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    “After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant “peace in our time!” But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)…”

    These facts have some bias or what? Sure, the Ukrainian neo-Nazi (and Kagans’ clan) are in total accord with you — all Russians are bad, very bad. Here is an Israel-firster filing, today, the “Article of Impeachment (H. Res. 438) against President Donald J. Trump for High Crimes and Misdemeanors,” while, at the same time, it was found that the Russophobic McCain has been implicated, from the get-go, in commissioning and concocting the infamous dossier on Trump.
    There is no USSR anymore – it ceased to exist 30 years ago. As for your cheerleading for desecrating the soldiers’ graves because of the wrong government, please tell us about your attitude towards Jewish cemeteries in the context of the USSLiberty slaughter as well as about your attitude to the German cemeteries and Bandera grave n the context of D-Day.

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    Anna, that's an absurdly gross simplification/misrepresentation: Poland didn't "join Hitler" in anything.

    The Czech part of Cieszyn had a sizeable Polish minority, which the Polish gov't. sought to protect with the 1938 annexation. [This is much more like the Russian annexation of Crimea than what you suggested.] Perhaps you've forgotten that Germany took the Sudetenland long before invading Poland in Sept. 1939.

    Directly after WWII, the 1920 border was restored.
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  107. MEexpert says:
    @Corvinus
    "The president of the United States has a list of people he can execute anytime he so wishes."

    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.

    "The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States."

    Under certain conditions.

    "The press does the bidding of the government."

    That would Fake News.

    "No free press."

    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.

    "People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause."

    You mean probable cause.

    "Your property can be confiscated by the government agencies if you fail to comply government’s request to inspect it."

    Under certain conditions.

    "Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. Sounds like a police state to me."

    You really quack me up.

    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.

    Obama’s list was not authorized by anyone. That list was made in the White House and included US citizens as well as non-citizens and they could be executed anywhere in the world. That is worse than ditatorship.

    “The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States.”
    Under certain conditions.

    NSA has been spying on the citizens without any cause for a long time. Also true for CIA and FBI. What conditions are you talking about. You are guessing. I am talking about facts.

    “The press does the bidding of the government.”
    That would Fake News.

    How is that fake news?

    “No free press.”
    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.

    Try sending these comments to the NYT and WaPo and see if they publish it. The MSM is doing the Israeli/neocon bidding and will not publish anything against Israel. That is not free press in my books.

    “People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause.”
    You mean probable cause.

    Where have you been hybernating? Have you heard of the Patriot Act? The citizens of this nation have lost all liberties and you are taking about probable cause. These days no cause is probable cause.

    You keep repeating “under certain conditions.” Those conditions are whatever the government says they are. You have no say over them and you can’t complain about them.

    A Police State is defined as “A government or state that exercies power arbitrarily through the power of the police force.” In this case police force will include the NSA, CIA, FBI, the TSA, and other intelligence agencies.

    I say it again,

    “Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. ”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Corvinus
    "Obama’s list was not authorized by anyone. That list was made in the White House and included US citizens as well as non-citizens and they could be executed anywhere in the world. That is worse than ditatorship."

    Here are the facts, uncomfortable as they may be.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html

    "NSA has been spying on the citizens without any cause for a long time. Also true for CIA and FBI. What conditions are you talking about. You are guessing. I am talking about facts."

    The conditions that necessitate these agencies in spying.

    "Try sending these comments to the NYT and WaPo and see if they publish it. The MSM is doing the Israeli/neocon bidding and will not publish anything against Israel. That is not free press in my books."

    Free press is never free, nor is it free of consequences. Do you comment here on unz.com? Yes. Hence, you are enjoying free press. Are you are able to run a blog? Yes. Hence, you are enjoying free press. NYT and WaPo, just like Fox News and this fine site, have the liberty to publish whatever comments they want.

    "Where have you been hybernating? Have you heard of the Patriot Act? The citizens of this nation have lost all liberties and you are taking about probable cause. These days no cause is probable cause."

    The Patriot Act did not lead to American citizens "losing all liberties". More Fake News on your part. Again, there are conditions specified in that act.

    For the record, a police state is defined as a "totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens' activities."

    America is not totalitarian, as we have a representative democracy. Now, if you want to say that America acts like a police state, then that is another thing.
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  108. annamaria says:

    Bibi’s outrage with the turn of events in Syria can be recognized in today’s pornographic decision by the spineless, corrupt, and thoroughly servile US Congres: “Congressional Democrats announced Saturday that a bipartisan group of House and Senate negotiators has reached an agreement on a sweeping Russia sanctions package to punish Moscow for meddling in the presidential election and its military aggression in Ukraine and Syria.” http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/democrats_announce_agreement_russia_sanctions_20170722
    What could one say? The “meddling in the presidential election” has not been proven (despite many efforts of the “17 agencies”). The Russian “military aggression in Ukraine ” is a wet dream of the ziocons who implemented (in collaboration with Ukrainian neo-Nazi) a coup d’etat in Ukraine. The Russian “military aggression” in Syria is a lie; Russians are fighting ISIS and Al Qaeda in Syria (quite successfully) on the invitation from the Syrian government, whereas the US and Israel (and their paragon of democracy Kingdom of Saud) have been arming and cooperating with ISIS & Al Qaeda.
    What the dishonorable Hoyer and the dishonorable Schumer had been telling the American citizenry after 9/11 re the “war on terror”? – Support the troops? – Now we know which troops they had in mind: “U.S. send $1 billion worth of weapons to terrorists” https://trud.bg/350-diplomatic-flights-carry-weapons-for-terrorists/
    “C.I.A. Cash Ended Up in Coffers of Al Qaeda:” https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html
    Israel (and the paychecks from Israel-firsters and banksters) are much-much closer to the hearts of the US Congresspeople than the interests of Americans citizenry: “New Report Exposes Direct Israeli Support for Al Qaeda-Allied Forces in Syria,” http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/israeli-support-al-qaeda-allied-forces-syria – Not a peep from the “support the troops” crowd on the American side.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    { “Congressional Democrats announced Saturday that a bipartisan group of House and Senate negotiators has reached an agreement on a sweeping Russia sanctions package to punish Moscow for meddling in the presidential election and its military aggression in Ukraine and Syria.”}

    Impotent fake rage of brainless marionettes.
    Both US and EU sanctions have become a joke.
    Russia suffered a bit in the beginning, but has learned not only to cope, but use the sanctions to force its domestic industries and agriculture to step up to the plate.

    Russia's agriculture sector is booming.

    Germany is loudly objecting to US's hysterical, pigheaded drive to continue with sanctions. Russia's counter-sanctions against EU are apparently hitting German pocketbooks pretty hard.

    West still does not understand the Russian mindset.
    Pampered Western businessmen and consumers cannot tolerate any pain.
    Russians can live indefinitely on lousy bread, sal (cured pig fat), and vodka.

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  109. Avery says:
    @annamaria
    Bibi's outrage with the turn of events in Syria can be recognized in today's pornographic decision by the spineless, corrupt, and thoroughly servile US Congres: "Congressional Democrats announced Saturday that a bipartisan group of House and Senate negotiators has reached an agreement on a sweeping Russia sanctions package to punish Moscow for meddling in the presidential election and its military aggression in Ukraine and Syria." http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/democrats_announce_agreement_russia_sanctions_20170722
    What could one say? The "meddling in the presidential election" has not been proven (despite many efforts of the "17 agencies"). The Russian "military aggression in Ukraine " is a wet dream of the ziocons who implemented (in collaboration with Ukrainian neo-Nazi) a coup d'etat in Ukraine. The Russian "military aggression" in Syria is a lie; Russians are fighting ISIS and Al Qaeda in Syria (quite successfully) on the invitation from the Syrian government, whereas the US and Israel (and their paragon of democracy Kingdom of Saud) have been arming and cooperating with ISIS & Al Qaeda.
    What the dishonorable Hoyer and the dishonorable Schumer had been telling the American citizenry after 9/11 re the "war on terror"? - Support the troops? - Now we know which troops they had in mind: "U.S. send $1 billion worth of weapons to terrorists" https://trud.bg/350-diplomatic-flights-carry-weapons-for-terrorists/
    "C.I.A. Cash Ended Up in Coffers of Al Qaeda:" https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/15/world/asia/cia-funds-found-their-way-into-al-qaeda-coffers.html
    Israel (and the paychecks from Israel-firsters and banksters) are much-much closer to the hearts of the US Congresspeople than the interests of Americans citizenry: "New Report Exposes Direct Israeli Support for Al Qaeda-Allied Forces in Syria," http://www.alternet.org/grayzone-project/israeli-support-al-qaeda-allied-forces-syria - Not a peep from the "support the troops" crowd on the American side.

    { “Congressional Democrats announced Saturday that a bipartisan group of House and Senate negotiators has reached an agreement on a sweeping Russia sanctions package to punish Moscow for meddling in the presidential election and its military aggression in Ukraine and Syria.”}

    Impotent fake rage of brainless marionettes.
    Both US and EU sanctions have become a joke.
    Russia suffered a bit in the beginning, but has learned not only to cope, but use the sanctions to force its domestic industries and agriculture to step up to the plate.

    Russia’s agriculture sector is booming.

    Germany is loudly objecting to US’s hysterical, pigheaded drive to continue with sanctions. Russia’s counter-sanctions against EU are apparently hitting German pocketbooks pretty hard.

    West still does not understand the Russian mindset.
    Pampered Western businessmen and consumers cannot tolerate any pain.
    Russians can live indefinitely on lousy bread, sal (cured pig fat), and vodka.

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  110. RobinG says:
    @annamaria
    What's wrong with presenting a fact? - "Before being invaded by the USSR, Poland had joined Hitler in dismembering Czechoslovakia.
    https://blogcritics.org/poland-joined-hitler-in-dismembering-czechoslovakia/ http://www.weeklyuniverse.com/2003/poland.htm
    “After signing the Munich Agreement, Chamberlain flew back to Britain, declaring that the Agreement meant “peace in our time!” But it was not to be. Poland took its piece of Czechoslovakia first. After an ultimatum from Warsaw on September 27, 1938, Czechoslovakia had ceded to Poland the district of Tesin (Teschen)…”

    These facts have some bias or what? Sure, the Ukrainian neo-Nazi (and Kagans' clan) are in total accord with you -- all Russians are bad, very bad. Here is an Israel-firster filing, today, the "Article of Impeachment (H. Res. 438) against President Donald J. Trump for High Crimes and Misdemeanors," while, at the same time, it was found that the Russophobic McCain has been implicated, from the get-go, in commissioning and concocting the infamous dossier on Trump.
    There is no USSR anymore - it ceased to exist 30 years ago. As for your cheerleading for desecrating the soldiers' graves because of the wrong government, please tell us about your attitude towards Jewish cemeteries in the context of the USSLiberty slaughter as well as about your attitude to the German cemeteries and Bandera grave n the context of D-Day.

    Anna, that’s an absurdly gross simplification/misrepresentation: Poland didn’t “join Hitler” in anything.

    The Czech part of Cieszyn had a sizeable Polish minority, which the Polish gov’t. sought to protect with the 1938 annexation. [This is much more like the Russian annexation of Crimea than what you suggested.] Perhaps you’ve forgotten that Germany took the Sudetenland long before invading Poland in Sept. 1939.

    Directly after WWII, the 1920 border was restored.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Robin, I give you a benefit of doubt on the Polish government' annexation of Teschen: Poland used Hitler' policies to get what it wanted from Czechoslovakia.
    But what is your attitude towards the ongoing demolitions of the monuments to the hundreds of thousands of Soviets who died in a fight with Hitler's armies on the territory of Poland? And what about this morsel? https://www.rt.com/news/251961-ukraine-maidan-snipers-poland/
    ‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’: Polish MP alleges special op in Ukraine to provoke riot"
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  111. annamaria says:
    @RobinG
    Anna, that's an absurdly gross simplification/misrepresentation: Poland didn't "join Hitler" in anything.

    The Czech part of Cieszyn had a sizeable Polish minority, which the Polish gov't. sought to protect with the 1938 annexation. [This is much more like the Russian annexation of Crimea than what you suggested.] Perhaps you've forgotten that Germany took the Sudetenland long before invading Poland in Sept. 1939.

    Directly after WWII, the 1920 border was restored.

    Robin, I give you a benefit of doubt on the Polish government’ annexation of Teschen: Poland used Hitler’ policies to get what it wanted from Czechoslovakia.
    But what is your attitude towards the ongoing demolitions of the monuments to the hundreds of thousands of Soviets who died in a fight with Hitler’s armies on the territory of Poland? And what about this morsel? https://www.rt.com/news/251961-ukraine-maidan-snipers-poland/
    ‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’: Polish MP alleges special op in Ukraine to provoke riot”

    Read More
    • Replies: @RobinG
    "My attitude?"

    demolitions of the monuments = neither surprising nor important

    ‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’ = sad, it's miserable being a pawn


    Clinton/Soros training camps, Ukraine - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U "Us Embassy TechCamp Kyiv 2012"

    Clinton/Soros "Twitter Revolution in Ukraine" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1F_E1splZg - "US TECH CAMPS in Ukraine Coup"

    Clinton/Soros "Antifa" and #resist American Color Revolution - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnPZzD5ROUg - "Democrat Dennis Kucinich: President Trump is under attack by the Deep State!"

    #UNRIG - Integrity Pledge: America First, Not Israel - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlqjPyfdyU - Steele's Weekly #UNRIG Update

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  112. Corvinus says:
    @MEexpert


    Any leader has that power, but that that power is clearly defined in specific circumstances.
     
    Obama's list was not authorized by anyone. That list was made in the White House and included US citizens as well as non-citizens and they could be executed anywhere in the world. That is worse than ditatorship.

    “The intelligence agencies have a clear mandate to spy on the citizens of the United States.”
    Under certain conditions.
     
    NSA has been spying on the citizens without any cause for a long time. Also true for CIA and FBI. What conditions are you talking about. You are guessing. I am talking about facts.

    “The press does the bidding of the government.”
    That would Fake News.
     
    How is that fake news?

    “No free press.”
    Since I am reading unz.com, and we are commenting on this fine website, and the government has not shut it down, you would be other than accurate in making that claim.
     
    Try sending these comments to the NYT and WaPo and see if they publish it. The MSM is doing the Israeli/neocon bidding and will not publish anything against Israel. That is not free press in my books.

    “People can be searched anytime, anywhere for no cause.”
    You mean probable cause.
     
    Where have you been hybernating? Have you heard of the Patriot Act? The citizens of this nation have lost all liberties and you are taking about probable cause. These days no cause is probable cause.

    You keep repeating "under certain conditions." Those conditions are whatever the government says they are. You have no say over them and you can't complain about them.

    A Police State is defined as "A government or state that exercies power arbitrarily through the power of the police force." In this case police force will include the NSA, CIA, FBI, the TSA, and other intelligence agencies.

    I say it again,

    “Talks like a duck, walks like a duck….. ”
     

     

    “Obama’s list was not authorized by anyone. That list was made in the White House and included US citizens as well as non-citizens and they could be executed anywhere in the world. That is worse than ditatorship.”

    Here are the facts, uncomfortable as they may be.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/29/world/obamas-leadership-in-war-on-al-qaeda.html

    “NSA has been spying on the citizens without any cause for a long time. Also true for CIA and FBI. What conditions are you talking about. You are guessing. I am talking about facts.”

    The conditions that necessitate these agencies in spying.

    “Try sending these comments to the NYT and WaPo and see if they publish it. The MSM is doing the Israeli/neocon bidding and will not publish anything against Israel. That is not free press in my books.”

    Free press is never free, nor is it free of consequences. Do you comment here on unz.com? Yes. Hence, you are enjoying free press. Are you are able to run a blog? Yes. Hence, you are enjoying free press. NYT and WaPo, just like Fox News and this fine site, have the liberty to publish whatever comments they want.

    “Where have you been hybernating? Have you heard of the Patriot Act? The citizens of this nation have lost all liberties and you are taking about probable cause. These days no cause is probable cause.”

    The Patriot Act did not lead to American citizens “losing all liberties”. More Fake News on your part. Again, there are conditions specified in that act.

    For the record, a police state is defined as a “totalitarian state controlled by a political police force that secretly supervises the citizens’ activities.”

    America is not totalitarian, as we have a representative democracy. Now, if you want to say that America acts like a police state, then that is another thing.

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  113. MEexpert says:

    The conditions that necessitate these agencies in spying.

    You didn’t answer my question. What conditions are you talking about?

    The Patriot Act did not lead to American citizens “losing all liberties”. More Fake News on your part. Again, there are conditions specified in that act.

    Here is a commentary on the Patriot Act by the ACLU:

    “Hastily passed 45 days after 9/11 in the name of national security, the Patriot Act was the first of many changes to surveillance laws that made it easier for the government to spy on ordinary Americans by expanding the authority to monitor phone and email communications, collect bank and credit reporting records, and track the activity of innocent Americans on the Internet. While most Americans think it was created to catch terrorists, the Patriot Act actually turns regular citizens into suspects.”

    “On May 26, 2011, Senator Ron Wyden (D-OR), said, “I want to deliver a warning … when the American people find out how their government has secretly interpreted the Patriot Act, they will be stunned and they will be angry.””

    “Under the Patriot Act, National Security Letters (NSLs) are issued by FBI agents, without a judge’s approval, to obtain personal information, including phone records, computer records, credit history, and banking history.”

    “Between 2003 and 2006, the FBI issued 192,499 NSLs, which led to one terror-related conviction. The conviction would have occurred even without the Patriot Act.”

    America is not totalitarian, as we have a representative democracy. Now, if you want to say that America acts like a police state, then that is another thing.

    I repeat my statement; “Talks like a Duck, Walks Like a Duck… and I will add “Acts like a Duck…”

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  114. RobinG says:
    @annamaria
    Robin, I give you a benefit of doubt on the Polish government' annexation of Teschen: Poland used Hitler' policies to get what it wanted from Czechoslovakia.
    But what is your attitude towards the ongoing demolitions of the monuments to the hundreds of thousands of Soviets who died in a fight with Hitler's armies on the territory of Poland? And what about this morsel? https://www.rt.com/news/251961-ukraine-maidan-snipers-poland/
    ‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’: Polish MP alleges special op in Ukraine to provoke riot"

    “My attitude?”

    demolitions of the monuments = neither surprising nor important

    ‘Maidan snipers trained in Poland’ = sad, it’s miserable being a pawn

    Clinton/Soros training camps, Ukraine – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpIoBUDuL3U “Us Embassy TechCamp Kyiv 2012″

    Clinton/Soros “Twitter Revolution in Ukraine” – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1F_E1splZg – “US TECH CAMPS in Ukraine Coup”

    Clinton/Soros “Antifa” and #resist American Color Revolution – https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnPZzD5ROUg – “Democrat Dennis Kucinich: President Trump is under attack by the Deep State!”

    #UNRIG – Integrity Pledge: America First, Not Israelhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMlqjPyfdyUSteele’s Weekly #UNRIG Update

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  115. @Anonymous
    Nice to see everyone is blaming America again.

    The shocking thing in my eyes is how these soldiers are heartless greedy and corrupt enough to extort vast sums of money from their fellow citizens who are already suffering the darkest days of their lives. It's animalistic, demonic, and destines their people and their nation to eternal servitude. Arabs are such disgusting people.

    “heartless greedy and corrupt enough to extort vast sums of money from their fellow citizens who are already suffering the darkest days of their lives.”

    This could actually describe the lot of the majority of American citizens who have had to endure years of declining incomes and purchasing power, failing infrastructure and services all at the same time that an ever increasing amount of money is taken from them both directly and indirectly to service a heartless, greedy and corrupt military complex.

    Ironic isn’t it? however, I wouldn’t say that Americans are disgusting people just because they are being exploited nor would I say it about arabs for the very same reason.

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  116. Logan says:
    @NoldorElf
    Ultimately, the blame must go to the neocons, who lied about the reasons to go to Iraq. Shame on them, and shame on everyone who supported the invasion in 2003.

    Saddam was not going to Weapons of Mass Destruction on the US - he didn't even have them. Nor to this day has any evidence been produced that Saddam had anything to do with the 9-11-01 attacks.

    His removal had terrible consequences. Saddam was a terrible dictator, make no mistake, but he was also a stabilizing force. Without him, ISIS has come in the shadows.

    Oh, and just because ISIS is out doesn't mean it is over. The Sunni people have very legitimate grievances against the mistreatment of their people that the Iraqi government has done. The Iraqi government was corrupt and brutal to the Sunni people. That I fear will lead to more problems down the road.

    Meanwhile, the US will be deeply in debt from all these wars.

    The problem with this notion is normalcy bias. Saddam had been in power for some decades so he would still be in power had we not overthrown him.

    The various Arab secular dictatorships have the enormous problem of an absence of legitimacy. Most of their people simply did not / do not see their power as legitimate. So by default they were forced to rule by fear.

    Which means, more or less by definition, that they had to constantly increase the repression to stay in power. Such a society only ever has one end. It’s a pressure cooker with the safety valve disabled. It WILL explode, the only question being when. And the longer till the explosion, the greater the destruction when it does go up.

    Does this mean our various interventions have been a good idea? Probably not. But the notion that all would have gone on as it was in 2000 is not necessarily accurate either.

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  117. Logan says:
    @Wally
    "Hoshyar Zebari, until recently a senior minister in Baghdad, told The Independent that many bodies “are still buried under the rubble”. “The level of human suffering is immense,” he said."

    Really? Then dig them out, count them, show them.

    Until then it looks like immensely exaggerated propaganda. Oh so familiar.

    Quite agree. Tens of thousands of human bodies are darn difficult to dispose of.

    Also, human beings are quite remarkably difficult to kill. Midwest towns utterly destroyed by tornadoes, and you’d think from the pictures there must be hundreds of dead. Nope, maybe two or three.

    People have estimate up to 500,000 dead in the bombing of Dresden. Actual numbers probably around 25,000. In a large city utterly destroyed.

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  118. […] to a report revealed to The Independent– more than 40,000 civilians were killed in the devastating battle to […]

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