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Like Northern Ireland, Great Britain Is Being Swept by Nationalism
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Britain is becoming more and more like Northern Ireland. This should be a comfort to Arlene Foster and the DUP as they rue their betrayal by Boris Johnson over the Irish border.

Northern Irish politics have always been dominated by the competing agendas of the Catholic/Irish nationalists and the Protestant/Unionist communities. In practice, both the DUP and Sinn Fein are nationalist parties, though the former does not see its Union Jack-waving version of British identity as being “nationalist”.

But there are lessons to be learned from Northern Ireland as a place where super-heated nationalism is the order of the day. In the coming general election, for the first time in British history, it is nationalist parties that stand a good chance of making a clean sweep in the UK as a whole. The Conservative Party under Boris Johnson has turned into an English nationalist party whose main policy is seeking self-determination through leaving the EU. The SNP are likely to win almost all the parliamentary seats in Scotland. In Wales, 41 per cent of the electorate say they would opt for Welsh independence within the EU.

Not that the pursuit of self-determination is in any way wrong: it is a natural human instinct to seek control for good or ill of one’s own future. The Remainers have done themselves a lot of self-harm by seeing English nationalism as somehow illegitimate because is tainted by racism and imperialism and therefore less justifiable than Kurdish or Vietnamese nationalism. Liberals and left-wingers often see English nationalism as a diversion from real economic and social ills, propelled by nostalgia for the world of Kipling. This may or may not be so, but the history of nationalist movements shows that they are ignored at one’s peril and it is never enough to prove the falsity of nationalist promises of good things to come just over the horizon.

Remainers frequently sound baffled at the failure of intellectually convincing studies showing that Britain will be economically worse off outside the EU to have any impact on Leave supporters. This may be because the strongest Leave support is in places, from the de-industrialised Welsh Valleys to decayed English coastal towns, where people never saw EU membership doing them much good.

Remainers would have been less surprised if they had considered that nationalist movements have a track record of promising that everybody’s troubles will be resolved once national independence has been won. People have fought and died heroically for these dreams from Algeria to Zimbabwe and Baghdad to Manila, only to find that they have enabled a corrupt elite to clamber into power and exploit it to enrich themselves.

A reason this grim lesson is never learned is that nationalist leaders invariably claim that their nation is, or ought to be, different from others. Failure and betrayal in other less blessed countries is of no interest or relevance. Belief in national exceptionalism is particularly strong in England because of its largely successful history over the last two centuries: no world wars lost, no foreign occupations, no civil wars or revolutions. For many in England, particularly among the older and less educated generations, this is the natural order of things.

Failure to deliver on their promises seldom capsizes nationalist leaders because they double down on putting the blame on minorities, the media and foreign states. This was true of Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe in the past and is true of Recep Tayyip Erdogan in Turkey today. When the supposed threat to the national community fails to silence critics, they can be jailed or their media outlets taken over.

Brexit supporters are contemptuous of the idea that any of these grim examples may apply to them or their country since part of their mantra is that Britain is different, meaning superior, to other countries. But, though authoritarian populist nationalism comes in different flavours, the ways it seeks and exercises power, whether it is in the US, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, India or Brazil, has strong parallels. A paradox of the Brexit project, is that in wanting to make the British more British it has made them less so by developing an English nationalism similar to stereotypes in other countries.

Remainers as well as Leavers often have an ingrained sense that such nationalist excesses “can’t happen here”. But in Northern Ireland, a place that used to be called “John Bull’s political slum”, such things have already happened over the last 10 years. Government may have been dysfunctional and self-serving but the DUP exploited Protestant/Unionist communal solidarity to excuse its failures.

Just how this happened is explained in fascinating detail in Sam McBride’s recently published Burned: The Inside Story of the ‘Cash-for-Ash’ Scandal and Northern Ireland’s Secretive New Elite. Keep in mind that the DUP, the main political vehicle of this elite, was the party that kept the Conservatives in power after 2017 and the DUP’s own community still votes for it despite its calamitous record.

The scandal that was to destroy the power-sharing government at Stormont began with what was sold as a green energy Renewal Heat Initiative (RHI). It was introduced in 2012 by the current DUP leader Arlene Foster, then Northern Ireland’s enterprise minister. The benign intention was for businesses to switch from old-fashioned oil and gas heaters to boilers using recycled, environmentally friendly wood pellets. But the Stormont version of the legislation passed by Westminster mysteriously missed out the section on cost controls. As a result, Northern Ireland’s government was paying £1.60 for every £1 of fuel burned by those taking part in the scheme which may eventually cost £1.2bn.

Anybody who bought a boiler could automatically make money. Hotels opened all their windows and turned up their heating full blast to produce “the ash for cash”. Farmers heated empty barns and cowsheds and made more money out of the scheme than they could growing grain or raising life stock.

ORDER IT NOW

The abuse of the scheme was soon detected but it was four years before it was stopped. By then Arlene Foster had become first minister of Northern Ireland, refusing to step aside during investigations, leading Sinn Fein to withdraw from the power-sharing government that collapsed in 2017.

Events in Northern Ireland are usually discounted in the rest of the UK as being toxic but atypical. The DUP’s hyper-British nationalism used to seem a bizarre throwback to pre-1914 Britain that could be safely ignored, but over the last two years it was in and out of Downing Street and won praise from the ERG for being true to the old British values. Populist nationalism in the past has been typified by corrupt elites using national or communal self-interest to excuse their looting expeditions. As Britain enters an era of resurgent nationalism, Northern Ireland is an ominous pointer to what is to come.

(Republished from The Independent by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Boris Johnson, Brexit, Britain 
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  1. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    I find it strange how supporting a united Ireland is a mainstream position on the right, yet the Catalan independence movement is universally despised by the right despite the fact Catalans voted for it overwhelmingly in a referendum. An independent Catalonia has almost no support out of Catalonia itself, the EU is decidedly against the Catalan separatists and even the Irish Republic refused to speak out against Spain despite their own “struggle” against being part of Britain.

    So the unity of Spain is more important and worth defending than the unity of the UK? Seems that way, it is such hypocrisy.

    • Replies: @Joe Walker
    , @RadicalCenter
  2. Anonymous[151] • Disclaimer says:

    Tories are not English nationalists at all, a large part of their platform for the majority of the last decade has been implementing regionalisation in England whether “the regions” want it or not. An English parliament outside of London, which many English people DO want, is completely out of the question under the current political establishment, be it Tory or Labour in power.

    I suspect the purpose of Brexit itself may be to advance the regionalisation agenda, first allow NI and Scotland to break away and then have England gradually disintegrate and be at war with itself. The global elites have always had a particular hated for Britain, why else would they have financed the IRA and Scottish independence movement for decades while being vehemently against similar movements in countries like Spain, etc? It makes no sense unless the aim is to destroy Britain.

  3. A123 says:

    The resistance against EU elitism should be described as Populist not Nationalist. If the fight for freedom was rooted in nationalism, why would Poles help Hungarians? Americans help the Brits?

    Christian Populism is a movement across many nations. It is diametrically opposed to the anti-Christian, Globalist oligarchy that tops the EU.

    Remainers frequently sound baffled at the failure of intellectually convincing studies showing that Britain will be economically worse off outside the EU to have any impact on Leave supporters.

    Indeed, the authoritarian Remainer movement launched “Project Fear” to create fake studies showing illusory harm to scare people away from acting in their own self interest. They are baffled that UK citizens saw through their propaganda.

    People have fought and died heroically for these dreams from Algeria to Zimbabwe and Baghdad to Manila, only to find that they have enabled a corrupt elite to clamber into power and exploit it to enrich themselves.

    The corrupt, unelected elites of the EU Commission are already enriching themselves. To line their own pockets they have damaged everyone via “green” energy boondoggles and mass migration theology.

    The EU exploitation of the UK can be shown in one easy chart: (1)

    Why do you think Germany is fighting so hard to keep the UK in the EU? Post-Brexit they will have to pick up the entire tab: (2)

    Berlin faces having to hand over as much £28.5 billion, according to the latest government estimates. The Brussels’ plan has sparked fury in the German capital and four other rich governments who also face massive hikes in their budget contributions. Germany could be hit by a steep 100 percent rise – from £13 billion in 2020 to £28.5 billion by 2027

    The EU is like a burning building. And, the elites keep shouting, “Ignore the smoke. No fire here.”

    The people of the UK are wise to escape the conflagration before it consumes them.

    PEACE 😇
    ____

    (1) https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2011/08/who_pays_for_the_european_union.html

    (2) https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1196507/EU-news-Germany-European-Union-budget-contribution-Brexit-latest-update

    • Replies: @Curmudgeon
  4. fnn says:

    Sinn Fein practices a very strange form of “nationalism”-they want their country flooded with foreigners.

  5. The “Independent” seems to be praising nationalism with faint damns. Is this really the best they can do? Let’s weigh the two options here:

    1. Globalists win. England becomes another Camp for the Saints to continue raping English girls just like they do in Sweden, Germany, France, and the US. The elites live fine in gated communities with armed guards and brown servants while the poor and former middle class suffer the presence of 3rd world savages.

    2. Nationalists win, and a new corrupt elite sweeps into power. They replace the old elite, but continue to implement hairbrained schemes that enrich themselves at the expense of the taxpayers. Meanwhile, they deport all the savages that are destroying their country, and save taxpayers massive piles of money through reduced housing costs, law enforcement, healthcare, crime, and “education”.

    I would choose option 2 every single time, and so would most people who have not been brainwashed by the universal equality dogma. It’s not even close.

    • Replies: @animalogic
    , @anon
  6. @A123

    The problem with the chart is that the massive disparity was created by the Euro. Countries like Greece and Spain have no way to adjust their economies to local conditions, as the Euro distorts what they are able to do. Shortly after its introduction, an Irish friend, who traveled extensively commented that the only “value” he could see was comparing prices, in Euros, to what each country had, that is, what did your Euro buy you compared to the standard of living.

    Enoch Powell warned people before the vote to join, where it would all lead. Of course, the evil, racist, xenophobic neo-Nazi was vilified, just as he was about immigration. I say in all honesty, that had someone told me, in 1973, that the British auto and motorcycle industry would no longer exist in 25 years, I would have laughed at them. Yes, it had its problems, but the EEC/EU ensured its demise.

    I recall the pub chatter at the time. Generally speaking, people were OK with a trade arrangement, which is what the EEC was. They were however, concerned with just how much interference there would be from Brussels with regulations/conformity. It seems to me, that has always been the real issue, not the trade, or how much was paid in.

    • Replies: @animalogic
  7. @Anonymous

    supporting a united Ireland is a mainstream position on the right

    Please name some right-wingers who support a united Ireland. As far as I can see, most right-wingers are anglophiles and most anglophiles are against a united Ireland. The reason why the EU is against an independent Catalonia is because Spain is a EU member and – unlike the UK – is not trying to leave. It would be bizarre if the EU supported the breakup of one of its member states.

  8. The EU is like a burning building.

    If the EU is so bad then why did Boris Johnson do a deal with them? Why not just leave without a deal?

  9. @fnn

    Sinn Fein has no problem with peaceful immigrants who are willing to integrate into Irish society. What they are against is British invaders who want to force the native Irish to live under British rule.

    • LOL: byrresheim
  10. A123 says:

    The problem with the chart is that the massive disparity was created by the Euro. Countries like Greece and Spain have no way to adjust their economies to local conditions, as the Euro distorts what they are able to do.

    I agree. The Globalist EU elites are masters of exploitation. The people of the UK are not their only prey.

    The Globalists have used the EuroZone [EZ] currency to victimize many countries. The EZ Central Bank is located in Frankfurt and pushes toxic ‘austerity’ economics that enrich German corporate elites. In addition to the countries you named — Ireland, Cypus, Portugal, and Italy have also been assaulted by the Euro Central Bank.

    Eventually, a country, such as Italy, will fight back against ‘austerity ‘ by printing Euros. The EZ would not be able to penalize Italy into compliance. After all, cash fines are not meaningful when you can print the cash to pay the fine. Plus, it allows great theatre opportunities:

    — Fly a helicopter over an ECB meeting and dump newly printed fives on the surrounding area.
    — Place newly printed ones in wheelbarrows and push them around. Bonus points for duplicating Weimar era pictures as a photo ops.

    Panic the German people into a bank run against the Euro currency. That could drive Germany out of the EU as there is no way to exit the currency without exiting the union.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  11. Eric135 says:

    The only substantive instances of nationalist populism in the West that I am aware of have been Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco, and Germany under Hitler. I have not heard of the leaders of those regimes looting the treasury or otherwise engaging in corruption.

    The examples of nationalist corruption cited by the author are in the following Third World countries: Algeria, Zimbabwe, Iraq, the Philippines, Turkey, India, and Brazil. Isn’t that comparing apples to oranges? Third World countries do not have the West’s tradition of the rule of law and respect for individual freedoms and rights. They would be corrupt no matter what kind of rulers they had.

    He also throws in Hungary and Poland, but it is unclear what his beef is with them. That the style (not the substance) of governance is authoritarian, perhaps? Hungarians strike me as a happy and prosperous people under Orban. The same goes for the Poles. They just don’t want their countries to be invaded by the Third World. Who can blame them?

    If you want corruption, we have plenty of it under the globalist regime. Our politicians are puppets, with Jews disproportionately pulling their strings. They couldn’t care less about the well-being of the average person.

  12. No, both UK and Ireland are being swept by globo-homo, jungle fever, and mass-immigration-invasion from Africa and Muslim world.

  13. @Joe Walker

    “… have no problem with …”

    Synonym for “… nothing to see here, move on …”.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  14. Anonymous[791] • Disclaimer says:

    I wish your characterisation of far-right, nationalist England had any basis in reality because then we might actually have a fighting chance of turning this country around. The biggest and proudest achievement of the Conservative Party after their time in power is legalising gay marriage, and that’s what you are calling a far-right English nationalist party?

    In reality the Brexit movement is rapidly running out of steam and apathy is setting in, and native British people are increasingly indifferent to mass immigration and becoming a minority in their own country, most just seem to accept it as an inevitable part of life these days.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  15. @A123

    What no one here seems to grok is the EU IS a giant racket to bleed the Germans
    (Deutsche Bank is roughly as deutsch as Drafi Deutscher).

    Little Britain “pays” in roughly the sense Luxembourg does – both are money sinks
    (La France pays a little). Of all the undercurrents at work here, English petulance and insularity are the least surprising – though it is funny how Polish workers are fair game while Paki criminals are sacrosanct; my guess is the City has delusions of
    Hong Kong-cum-Singapore-cum-Airstrip One.

    The PIGS were hoodwinked into the Euro with the promise of cheap and unlimited credit and “the Germans will pay anyway”. ( Of them all, Ireland alone used the windfall to increase productivity as intended – though at a cost ) What they didn´t realize was you cannot run nigger socialism with a hard currency (how the US does is a different matter). The Euro has been a godsend for their 1% and an unmitigated disaster for the rest.

    – Meanwhile, the Germans are getting fed up with having to pay through their noses to bail out halfricans waking up from la dolce vita only long enough to protest against them …

    … which again goes to show just how evil they are 😛

    I´m sure someone somewhere finds it amusing 🙁
    … but this has already backfired once.

  16. @Anonymous

    Support for the Prov’ IRA (& other Nationalist groupings) was provided by US Irish Catholics & various contra-western States, such as Libya.
    The Tory’s (& indeed the whole UK establishment) has NO desire for ANY kind of
    fracturing of the UK.
    I don’t know about global elites — perhaps some DO see advantage in UK fragmentation.
    One thing is clear, by & large the push for Brexit was not caused by a desire for UK dissolution. Rather, dissolution of the bits of EU regulation left that protect labour, consumer & environmental protections were far higher on the agenda.

    • Replies: @YetAnotherAnon
  17. Seems that most people simply don’t know what nationalism is. It is a feeling of collective destiny of an entity which is people, nation & the will that this people must rule themselves, i.e. to be masters of their own destiny.

    EU is, while very important, only a modern construction & almost all analyses here are dead-wrong.

    British nationalism? What is it? Historically, Welsh & Scottish peoples have succumbed, culturally-linguistically to the English, so that so called “British nationalism” is something like English nationalism extended to include Scots & Welsh. The Irish, although anglicized culturally in most respects, have kept their identity as an oppressed people & they remain a separate nation due to their historical identity (and partly to still existing national language).

    Spanish “nationalism” is similar to British: it is Castillan dominance which has, historically, prevailed over Catalan, Basque & some others. Catalans want their own nation-state because they truly are a people (historical identity, memory, language, territory). They are not Castillans, nor are they, now, “Spaniards”- because Spain is Castille extended. True, it took them long time to achieve that kind of consciousness -if they had been nationally conscious in earlier times, many parts of Latin America would now speak Catalan & not “Spanish”, i.e. Castillan.

    The same goes with other peoples, including Kurds in Turkey etc. There is no Swiss “nation”, nor Belgian nation. Also, all Arab “nations” are just countries, not real peoples. The same goes for India etc.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  18. Renoman says:

    Nationalism is always viewed as poison by the left but it is a very natural state. Races don’t really mix so why force them together? We are not “all the same” we are in fact radically different and deep down very few have anything but “disdain” for many of the “other ” races so why force them together? It’s just asking for trouble.

  19. So Paddy’s main argument against localism in Northern Ireland is the corrupt ash for cash scheme imposed by the supranational government in Westminster?

    How bizzarre.

  20. @nokangaroos

    Golly! As bad as the EU has been for Germany, you’d think that more Germans would favor leaving it … or at least understand why certain other peoples might want to.

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  21. @Curmudgeon

    I think you’re hitting the spot here, curmudgeon.
    The Euro is a massive problem for the EU. It benefits Germany at the expense of most other nations.
    2ndly, the EU controlling bodies ARE desperately undemercratic. There’s no long term situation where that’s functional.
    3rdly, the EU is a monetary not fiscal union — thus, unlike the US, UK or Australia the central government can not intervene to fiscally balance out the inevitable ups-&-downs in the Union economy (ie increase infrastructure spending here, lower grants there etc).
    Yes, the rich (Germany) seem to pay for the poor (Greece).
    But, the Greeks are poor in large part because Germany, the IMF, WB, etc played the “creditors are sacred” game.
    Brexit — comes down to this: do you believe EU reform is realistically possible? If not — then the Q is one of balancing short/medium term pain against long term gain.

  22. EoinW says:

    The NI/UK analogy is pretty weak if one looks at the real reasons behind the nationalist movements:

    Protestants may support the DUP today no matter what but that unquestioning support began generations ago. Protestants, through the Unionist movement owned all the wealth in Northern Ireland. Every government job went to a Protestant. The Catholic community was expected to remain in their slums and accept what little wealth was left over. By 1969 they had enough and the Troubles began. Thus it’s all about the economically elite status that Protestants wish to maintain. They will always view the Catholic community as a threat to their standard of living.

    The nationalism of Leavers is not based on any kind of economic eliteism. In fact, for most Leavers, it is the exact opposite – having been left behind by the EU and Global Economy. Yet the biggest motivation for their nationalism is common sense. The politically correct neo-liberalism that rules England has changed the country into something they do not want. At least they are willing to try and peacefully put a stop to this. All we’ve seen is what a fraud the Brexit referendum was.

    If there is an appropriate NI/UK analogy it is the powerlessness of the 1960s Catholic community which led to the violence of the IRA and the powerlessness of British Leavers whose attempt at peaceful change will also be repressed.

    • Disagree: YetAnotherAnon
  23. @NobodyKnowsImADog

    Choose option 2 ? Choose away but it won’t happen. Why? Because it wrong? No. Because it’s right? No. Because (beyond bits & peices) it’s too fucking hard….

  24. Liberals and left-wingers often see English nationalism as a diversion from real economic and social ills, propelled by nostalgia for the world of Kipling. This may or may not be so, but the history of nationalist movements shows that they are ignored at one’s peril and it is never enough to prove the falsity of nationalist promises of good things to come just over the horizon.

    Or maybe Liberals and the anti-populist Left are just (willfully?) unaware of the falsity of the EU’s promises. After 30+ years, it’s become glaringly obvious that standards of living in Europe are sinking like a rock under the EU … but nobody’s supposed to notice that.

    Failure to deliver on their promises seldom capsizes nationalist leaders because they double down on putting the blame on minorities, the media and foreign states.

    In fairness, nationalist régimes–along with others that resist the globalists–are indeed often targeted by media subversion, fake ‘NGOs’ and Soros-sponsored flashmobs to incite certain minorities (sometimes racial, sometimes sectarian, and sometimes sexual) against the local government, so as to created a ‘humanitarian crisis’ that would justify war or sanctions.

    But, though authoritarian populist nationalism comes in different flavours, the ways it seeks and exercises power, whether it is in the US, Hungary, Poland, Turkey, India or Brazil, has strong parallels.

    How is that Liberals can engage in censorship, surveillance and subversion, yet never be described as “authoritarian”? Why is it that only those people (and peoples) who are defending /i> themselves against Liberal authoritariansim are deemed “authoritarian”? Funny how that works!

    I am no fan of the DUP, but if the ‘cash for ash’ scandal was truly as you’ve described it here, then at least I can say that it seems to have benefited the common people, for a change, rather than the elites. Most ‘environmental’ schemes actually accomplish the latter. Take cap-and-trade, for example: the little people subsidize the rich people by paying a tax (the price effect of the ‘cap’) so that Wall Street can make a killing off of the ‘trade’ in carbon credits. Now, if I’m going to be forced at gunpoint to subsidize somebody, then I’d prefer the money to go to local farmers and B&B owners, where at least it might end up stimulating the local economy, instead of going to gazillion-dollar hedge funds playing global arbitrage.

    But that’s just me …

  25. Sean says:

    In the devolution referendum in Scotland in 1979, 33% of the electorate voted for devolution while 31% voted against, but 40 % was required. There had been no threshold requirement in the 1975 referendum about the UK staying in the EU, even though it is questionable whether the Conservatives had a mandate for taking the United Kingdom into the EEC in 1974.

    The SNP are likely to win almost all the parliamentary seats in Scotland.

    That is very, very unlikely, the SNP did do well in the aftermath of the Scottish independence referendum, but the polls picked up on that beforehand and no such surge for the SNP is detectable this time. Quite apart from the facts of the relatively low value of Scottish oil now, and their former leader Salmond being about to be tried for attempted rape, there were more people in Scotland who voted for Brexit in the referendum than voted for the SNP.

    Also, the SNP long time slogan was Independence in Europe, so they were predicating all their forecasts for a rosey economic future after Scotland left the UK on there being no trade barriers between the newly detached country of Scotland and rest of the UK because bothe would still be in the EU. Brexit made those calculations null. The SNP candidates are in many cases not mentioning independence, they are running as an anti Brexit party in Conservative marginal seats in Scotland. The SNP have to prevent Brexit before doing anything else because only if the rest of the UK was in effect still in the EU could they propose to leave the UK and face objection about the paying a crippling economic price.

    People have fought and died heroically for these dreams from Algeria to Zimbabwe and Baghdad to Manila, only to find that they have enabled a corrupt elite to clamber into power and exploit it to enrich themselves

    Those countries did not have unending unstoppable immigration preventing a rise in wages and increasingly monopolising jobs in construction and services that are now a considerable proportion of the full time ones still available. And this is happening not just London, but poor little Scotland.

    https://www.snp.org/immigration-is-good-for-scotland-well-always-stand-up-for-it/

    We are back to Enoch Powell’s issues: immigration, Europe, and Ulster. A lot of people could not see the connection between Northern Ireland and Powell’s other issues when in 1974 he resigned from the Conservative party and joined the Ulster Unionists .

    The Conservative Party under Boris Johnson has turned into an English nationalist party whose main policy is seeking self-determination through leaving the EU.

    I agree with that, Boris Brexiteer led Conservative party is going to do well in the upcoming election for the same reasons as the SNP did so well after the Scottish independence referendum. The real mystery is why Corbyn (seen as the second coming of crypto communist Tony Benn by many people even in his own party) acceded to Boris’s wish to having a snap election. Corbyn had Boris boxed in and helpless, and by agreeing to the election Corbyn has given up a advantage while getting nothing in return. Blair has as much as said that even the Remainers are not going want to cancel full Brexit at the cost of Corbyn becoming Prime Minister. So Labour is going to be drubbed,

  26. @nokangaroos

    “What they didn´t realize was you cannot run nigger socialism with a hard currency”
    Not sure what you mean here by “hard currency” ? The EU is a fiat currency like the US dollar. Just as Indiana can’t print dollars nor can Italy print Euros.
    Yes, the Euro has been a disaster for much/most of the EU. But much of that comes down to the bloody minded, austerity obsessed & pathological inflation fears of Germany.
    Oh yes, there’s billions of €’s for banks etc (ie QE) but bugger all for main street (sound at all familiar to US readers?).
    Let’s grow the economy by austerity…. Sure, & the €’s as “real” as any other fiat currency…..
    Incidentally, those “banks” such as Deutsche, have been on a whole blood € drip from the EU Central Bank since 2007.
    Deutsche is a zombie, hsbc is criminal in its DNA & the rest are not much better.
    But, hey, that’s neoliberalism! 😳

    • Agree: Digital Samizdat
  27. A lot of British people are quite schizophrenic about Europe. Many don’t want to be ruled by Europe on any level (although many do), but at the same time they see their own country as the biggest shithole in Europe and would say just about anywhere in Europe is a better place to live with more civilised people. British people see their own cities in particular as open sewers, and would consider any city on the continent to be markedly superior to their own.

    The British attitude towards Europe is very much love/hate and the proportions of each can vary by the day. They also have both a superiority complex and inferiority complex towards Europe.

    • Agree: YetAnotherAnon
  28. plantman says:

    Cockburn has a very effective way of lambasting the people he disagrees with.

    Can we really dismiss Brexiteers as “hyper-nationalists” because they want to make their own laws, trade on their own terms, and control their own borders?

    In Cockburn’s world resistance is futile, English citizens should merely accept their fate and allow their country to be subsumed into the nightmarish EU Uber-State without uttering a peep.

    But how has that worked out for Greece, Ireland and Italy all of who have been crushed by austerity, massive unrepayable loans, and red ink as far as the eye can see?

    And where is the plan to revive these economies, put their people back to work, and narrow the widening inequality??

    Nowhere. The EU bureaucrats have no plan because the EU is not a state with a government that is responsive to its people. It is a free trade zone masquerading as a nation. The EU represents the interests of the banks and corporations who benefit from the free movement of capital and people. No one else benefits at all.

    Why would anyone choose to be a part of this corporate superstate when there is no avenue for changing its basic policies at the ballotbox?

    That, apparently, is no problem for Cockburn.

  29. @Anonymous

    “a large part of their platform for the majority of the last decade has been implementing regionalisation in England whether “the regions” want it or not”

    That was deliberate pre-Brexit (which Tory elites were horrified by) policy, to break up England. No English Parliament, but a lot of Regions.

    As The Good Hitchens put it in 2000

    “Britain is, or soon will be, somewhere else – George Orwell’s Airstrip One, or a series of regions in the European Federal State – Channelside, perhaps, as Kent and Sussex are merged with Pas-de-Calais, and a series of other unrecognizable and meaningless regions. For Britain, as she has been all these centuries, is far too big and powerful to be swallowed whole into the bland blend of the new multicultural Euroland. “

    https://archive.org/stream/the-abolition-of-britain-peter-hitchens/the-abolition-of-britain-peter-hitchens_djvu.txt

  30. @Europa Nationalist

    You can love Europe and its peoples while disliking the EU.

  31. @Eric135

    Paddy just wants Brexit reversed like Britain’s evil ruling class and so resorts to hyperbole.

  32. @Europa Nationalist

    Brexit is more complicated than that.

    It is more of an English revolt against the ruling class. Historian David Starkey has looked at the same in a rather long YouTube video. I just can’t find the link.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  33. This requires some dilation …

    I think it was Hitler who invented strategic devaluation (ouch!)
    One effect is the ability to write down incurred debt; what Salvini proposed with microbonds is not exactly the same but comparable in scope. As two thirds of the Italian economy are under-the-table, devaluing is the only way to get at these ill-gotten (heh) gains, plus it punishes saving and encourages consumption; in essence, it is NIRP on steroids – the moist dream of every Keynesian halfwit.
    The PIGS have been addicted to it, like clockwork, for over half a century.

    The Germans, by contrast, have never bought the “saving is sin” shit – to them, debt is GUILT (not coincidentally the same word in German) while to an Italian it is a conversation piece.
    Call it a racial trait, “Protestant work ethic”, bad experience or just smart.

    … here I have to point out these nice diagrams are misleading; in effect Germany, Austria and Finland (sound familiar?) account for the entire disposable EU budget.
    Ever since the Montanunion has there been this division of labor, like a good husband and wife: Germany pays, and France doesn´t start a war*.
    Over time the circle of leeches has grown and grown again, but lo! the suckers grow sicklier and measlier and the suckee healthier and stronger**.

    So after paying their national taxes and the EU obolus do YOU have the heart to tell them that now their savings have to be halved because some louts on the periphery cannot keep their purses, zippers, mouths and what have you shut?
    I would advise against it 😀

    When the Germans ask for “austerity”, it does not mean:
    “Entertain us, little monkeys! We enjoy watching you scream and jump up and down because we are, you know, sadists an sheet.”,
    it means:
    “For Chrissake, gentlemen! Can´t you SEE this cannot go on?”

    *Britain despised this arrangement from the beginning as for centuries the foundation of her strategic position had been the opposite; she never really felt part of Europe
    (malevolent Germans refer to this as “raisin picking” and “Extrawurst”)

    **Not much of a mystery either to the Darwinist or neo-Marxist; skimming off surplus capital has a tonic effect – the US traditionally start a war for that purpose.
    It has also been argued that by depressing the Euro somewhat the PIGS aid German exports – but Germany is a value-added economy without resources of her own so imports become more expensive also (only the US is exempt from this – though allowing the $$ to drop would solve a lot of problems).

    • Replies: @A123
  34. Altai_2 says:

    Nationalism is just a negative way of saying collectivism and that’s just another way of saying populism which is just another way of saying the people versus the elite.

    While I agree nationalism does have two sides, ingroup concern and outgroup contempt (Defensive versus aggressive) anyone who thinks Brexit was spawned by Combat18 style nationalism and isn’t a defensive result of mass post-2004 enlargement migration is simply seeing what they want to see and isn’t engaging with reality. A lot of decent thinkers are doing that, Paddy Ashdown didn’t get it and was shocked by the result of the 2015 election but then, when was the last time Paddy Ashdown left his bubble?

    • Replies: @Kamisama
  35. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    So after paying their national taxes and the EU obolus do YOU have the heart to tell them that now their savings have to be halved because some louts on the periphery cannot keep their purses, zippers, mouths and what have you shut?

    Of course not. Because that statement is untrue.

    The truth is that the common currency benefited German exporters at the expense of all other nations in the EZ. Now that the German elites have sucked other countries dry, Germany has to pay the price for breaking the European economy.

    If the German people do not want their savings halved, all their government has to do is exit the Euro and reintroduce the Mark. Without the artificial benefit of the single currency, German exports will contract as the DM rises against the Euro. Of course, the Globalist elites of Germany will staunchly oppose this as it would prevent them from sucking more wealth out of periphery countries for their personal gain.

    When the Germans ask for “austerity”, it does not mean:
    “Entertain us, little monkeys! We enjoy watching you scream and jump up and down because we are, you know, sadists an sheet.”,
    it means:
    “For Chrissake, gentlemen! Can´t you SEE this cannot go on?”

    I am afraid you have this exactly backwards. The German ruling class made their position clear during recent events:
    — There is no money to feed Greek children, then they have to starve to death.
    — There is no money to buy medicine for non-aryan retirees, then they have to die.

    How many vulnerable Greeks were murdered by Germans? We do not know exactly, but we can be sure that they exterminated thousands. And the Germans didn’t need camps, only toxic “Austerity”.
    ____

    Sharing a common currency with Germany has been objectively proven to be unworkable. There are only two options:
    -1- Getting Germany out of the Euro currency so it has a chance.
    -2- Or, ending the Euro entirely and letting each nation return to its historical currency.

    In the long run #2 seems inevitable. There has to be a fiscal union to support a currency union. And, it seems unlikely that any nation will give up enough control for a fiscal union to be possible.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  36. AceDeuce says:
    @Joe Walker

    They’re stupid to want even that–for one thing, they won’t get what you described, but they are stupid to want any foreign immigration-especially of Turd Worlders.

  37. @A123

    What I was trying to say – it is downright suicidal for the PIGS to have the same currency as Germany.
    But justice where due – Germany proposed a “Europe of two speeds” – core and periphery – only it was deemed “racist”.

    With Britain it is different – they seem to eye an “offshore banking and tax evasion” business model.

    – A fiscal union, BTW, would not help jack; look at Italy – everything south of Milano is in essence North Africa and has been since they murdered Konradin; and from fascism to assorted communist uprisings to zillions in aid, nothing has worked. Vatican mismanagement? Seriously.
    Italy is united enough, right? It´s the same mechanism.

    • Replies: @A123
  38. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    What I was trying to say – it is downright suicidal for the PIGS to have the same currency as Germany.

    It would be even better to say that it is downright suicidal for any country to have the same currency Germany.

    To Germans maintaining an export surplus is more than economics, it is religious dogma. The only balance to that belief system is a German only currency. Any nation stuck with German currency will be destroyed by German exports and/or an overvalued currency.

    With Britain it is different – they seem to eye an “offshore banking and tax evasion” business model.

    Why do people keep repeating this tax evasion propaganda? You want tax evasion go to Germany (DB) or Switzerland (UBS). British bank infringements are trivial compared to these nations.

    To an extent, offshore banking makes sense. The UK legal system is good (though not great). That makes it a vastly safer place to protect investments than the EU where law produces more or less random results and is incredibly slow.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  39. @animalogic

    “I don’t know about global elites — perhaps some DO see advantage in UK fragmentation.”

    Before 2016, at the Scottish Independence referendum, economic elites definitely wanted Scotland to remain in the UK. For months before the vote there was an obviously well organised drip-drip-drip of “sky will fall” stories on BBC news, as one business leader after another popped up to say investment would vanish, jobs would be lost, plagues, swarms of killer bees etc etc. And the EU, IIRC, said Scotland would have to apply for membership, hinting it might be a drawn-out process.

    One obvious worry at the highest global level would be defence – strategic UK submarine and air bases would be shut by an anti-nuclear SNP. Pretty sure the US, say, would prefer that not to happen.

    Post-2016? Tricky one, because now global elites have a motive for making Brexit as costly as possible for the UK – pour encourager les autres. But those elites aren’t monolithic. US elites would probably prefer Scotland to stay for NATO reasons, EU elites maybe not so much – after all, who really thinks Russian tanks are likely to start rolling over the North German Plain? No one. An England and Wales with NI and Scotland still in the single market might appeal to them.

  40. @A123

    De facto coupling to the Mark was not THAT rare – all it took was a modicum of fiscal responsibility and getting used to it; what´s so bad about that? And would not Germany leaving the Euro be – counterintuitive? Core Europe can cope, after all (though not to everybody´s liking 😛 ) and the benefits outweigh the strain.

    (On the institution in the abstract, of course – there are loads of gripes in detail; the Freedoms definitely go too far; one third of MEPs are West Asians and another third wholly owned, and so on)

    But I expect Brexit to reinforce a German turn eastward – and it seems I´m not alone. Or does anyone seriously believe the Poles arm up because they are afraid of Russia?

    Whatever 😉

    • Replies: @A123
  41. @Joe Walker

    And these native Irish would be from Nigeria /Somalia and anyone else who fancies living in Ireland ?? Ef me I thought things were insane in England — if you are representative of the Irish then all those Irish jokes of years ago are pretty accurate !! Still want to live in a comfortable past where the evil English can be blamed for everything while ignoring –what I read at any rate — race attacks by your new Irish in places like Dublin ? Am guessing you are a Globalist supporter- where everyone lives in peace and harmony –well without the English at any rate.Another Marxist dupe who longs for slavery- I mean equality (ahem).

    • Replies: @36 ulster
  42. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    De facto coupling to the Mark was not THAT rare – all it took was a modicum of fiscal responsibility and getting used to it; what´s so bad about that?

    Permanent & irrevocable coupling was non-existant.

    There is nothing inherently wrong with a temporary peg, but the ability to leave makes it an entirely different scenario. The irrevocable nature of the Euro is what can wind dislocations up to an unbearable level.

    would not Germany leaving the Euro be – counterintuitive? Core Europe can cope

    What makes you think “core” Europe can cope for an infinite period? It seems much more likely that over time the “core” nations will also become prey to German export theology.

    As it is obvious that no country can survive an irrevocable currency union with Germany, the need for such union to end is quite intuitive.

    But I expect Brexit to reinforce a German turn eastward – and it seems I´m not alone. Or does anyone seriously believe the Poles arm up because they are afraid of Russia?

    The Christian Populists of Poland are arming up because they are afraid of the Islamic Globalists of Germany. Nord Stream 2 is all about German dominance over Poland, and the Poles are very aware of the threat from the dark heart of Europe.

    Germany may want to turn the EU eastward, but Merkel has done tremendous damage to EU nations. Why would anyone follow where Germany leads?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  43. anon[349] • Disclaimer says:
    @NobodyKnowsImADog

    Left-wing thnkers like Cockburn never mention option 3:

    3. Democracy. The majority of the population wins, which means exiting the EU to regain democratic sovereignty over their future, stopping immigration to preserve their country for their own children, and installing accountable government, not corrupt government, that has to answer to the voters.
    Cockburn won’t use the word Democracy because he would have to admit that he doesn’t like democracy, an embarassing admission for the Left. He won’t talk about Democracy because that is the real source of Britain, and the United States’, success in the past two hundred years.
    Democracies are more fair and prosperous than other societies. But in a Democracy the majority is empowered to look out for its own interests, an idea that Cockburn, an elitist progressive, cannot stand.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  44. Kamisama says:
    @Altai_2

    > when was the last time Paddy Ashdown left his bubble?

    He left his bubble last year. For good.

  45. @Anonymous

    Maybe the european right has that combination of views, I don’t know.

    But many American nationalists, as i am, are all for Scotland and Wales seceding from the UK, Catalonia seceding from Spain, and if necessary California seceding from the USA.

    • Replies: @Richard B
    , @Hank Yobo
  46. @A123

    Get over your hate and out of Colditz already 😀
    Sure, not so long ago if you had divined Volkswagen and BMW would own Rolls Royce and Rover they´d have you locked up and under thorazine before you could say “oops”.
    But what´s so bad about an EU border along the Irish Sea and Hadrian´s Wall?
    Not to mention Cymru and that nest of geriatric-emergency colonials, tax evaders and Jewish pirates in Southern Spain.

    Dear Perfidious Albion:
    Sorry, no war this time 😛

    • Replies: @A123
  47. @Digital Samizdat

    The only thing Germans really dread is another shooting war with their so called friends.

    That they dread so much it is taboo to even talk about conflicting interests with their so called friends.

    The German export miracle is not only paid for by the southern Europeans but by the German working and middle classes.

    The construct is a lot less violent than the US’s construct – wether it’s more stable, time will tell.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  48. @Eric135

    The only substantive instances of nationalist populism in the West that I am aware of have been Italy under Mussolini, Spain under Franco, and Germany under Hitler. I have not heard of the leaders of those regimes looting the treasury or otherwise engaging in corruption.

    Hitler certainly found some creative ways to channel lots of government funds to himself. For example the government handed out lots of copies of Mein Kampf for free (including to newly wed couples etc.), and this exploded his income from royalties. He also “forgot” to file his tax report in 1933, and then was granted exemption from income taxes by the tax authorities (they were too scared to prosecute him). He became pretty wealthy after a few years in power. Many of his minions found ways to enrich themselves, too. Goebbels, for example, took possession of a huge villa at the outskirts of Berlin, and he got millions of Reichsmarks as “advance payment” for the publishing rights of his diaries (which were only supposed to be published twenty years after his death).

    Nazi leaders probably helped themselves to more money from government coffers than any other leaders in modern Germany before or since.

    • Replies: @Skeptikal
  49. @byrresheim

    True … Germany, as an occupied country, has turned passive aggressiveness into an art form (I LOVED their “the US is always free to build better cars” 😛 )
    Canetti was onto something when he called them “the new Jews”.

    – Their student loan system is as vile as the US one but the numerus clausus (quota) weeds out the unfit; as a predictable result the chaff overwhelm the systems of their neighbors – the same for their faculty. It gets a distinct colonial feel at times … 😀

    Other than that, the only medium-term problem I see are the fugees
    (probably, like the Diesel “scandal” and the Greta zombie outbreak, a concerted effort to take them down a notch or two).

    • Replies: @byrresheim
  50. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    But what´s so bad about an EU border along the Irish Sea and Hadrian´s Wall?

    Why does Germany want a wall between Ireland and the UK?

    It would be bad for the UK and worse for Ireland. Oh… Wait…. I think I just answered my own question.

    The Globalist Elites of Germany want to punish the UK and do not care about collateral damage to the Irish.
    ____

    Here is a better plan. Build a wall around Germany. No war needed and the threat of anti-Christian Globalism is contained.

    I will even throw in your beloved prophet George Soros. The world will be safer with him inside the wall.

    PEACE 😇

  51. A123 says:

    Remarks from György Matolcsy
    Governor of the Hungarian National Bank

    Introducing the euro was a mistake!

    …the common currency “a French snare” designed by former French President Francois Mitterrand “who feared growing German power and believed convincing the country to give up its Deutschemark would be enough to avoid a German Europe”.

    The euro, however, “was un­able to prevent the emergence of another strong German power”

    Germany, on the other hand, has grown “complacent”…

    Everyone accepts that the Euro currency was mistake. The real question is, “How do the people escape the trap laid by the elites?”

    PEACE 😇

    _____

    (1) https://dailynewshungary.com/governor-of-hungarys-central-bank-introducing-the-euro-was-a-mistake/

  52. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    In reality the Brexit movement is rapidly running out of steam and apathy is setting in, and native British people are increasingly indifferent to mass immigration and becoming a minority in their own country, most just seem to accept it as an inevitable part of life these days.

    They may have figured out that if Brexit goes ahead that’s not going to stop immigration. If anything it’s likely to increase Third World immigration.

    Maybe they’ve figured out that if Tory scum like Boris Johnson support Brexit then Brexit is unlikely to be beneficial to ordinary people. Maybe they realise that Brexit was just a daydream. Brexit is not going to bring back the old England that Leavers pine for. Ordinary Britons will still get screwed. The rich will get richer. Brexit will be great if you’re, let’s say, a commodities broker in the City of London (like Nigel Farage).

    Brexit was a very nice dream.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  53. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Amerimutt Golems

    Brexit is more complicated than that.

    It is more of an English revolt against the ruling class.

    That’s how ordinary English people who voted Leave saw Brexit. It’s not how Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage see it. They’re ruling class to the core. Their concept of Brexit is that it will be good for the ruling class.

    Brexit is a con.

  54. dfordoom says: • Website
    @anon

    He won’t talk about Democracy because that is the real source of Britain, and the United States’, success in the past two hundred years.

    Britain and the US have had the illusion of democracy. In reality the system is set up to make sure that ordinary people have zero say in how their country is governed. It’s always been this way.

    Democracy sounds like an attractive idea. Unfortunately it’s never actually been tried in practice.

  55. bro3886 says:

    Absolute rot. Absolute bullshit. Another concern troll demanding that a burning man submit a perfect plan for the rest of his life and guarantee that it will come to pass before he’s allowed to roll on the ground and put the flame out. There’s an uptick in populism because we’ve seen what our current internationalist leadership can do and short of resurrecting Pol Pot the alternatives can’t be any worse. P.S., Patty boy, when France is one-third African and one-third North African/Middle Eastern/Southwest Asian Muslim will it be an economic powerhouse? Will it be anything but a stinking third-world hell-hole, failed economically, politically, and socially, where the dwindling natives cower in fear and oppression? Seriously, gfy. Tiocfaidh ár lá.

  56. Sean says:

    Scotland could not possibly leave the UK after Brexit because of the problems that would create for businesses trading into and through a non EU area that England would then bem and the Scottish economy, even if the price of Scotland’s high cost oil recovered would suddenly be at a terrible disadvantage. Moreover, 36% of SNP and Labour supporters backed Brexit and more Scots voted Brexit than voted for the SNP at the last election, which came after Brexit. The SNP are not on the verge of winning all the seats in Scotland, if they were the polls would show it as they did last time. The bedrock of the Labour vote in Scotland is Catholics (basically ethnic Irish from communities that came over many generations ago).

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-49651136
    Can Glasgow ban all marches over sectarian fears?
    14 September 2019

    Four Loyalist marches and one Irish Republican parade planned for this weekend have been been banned by Glasgow City Council over the threat to public safety and the likelihood of widespread disorder. Can Glasgow now ban all marches over sectarian fears?

    If the people of Glasgow were given a vote on the future of Loyalist and Irish Republican marches in the city, the majority would ban them, according to SNP MSP John Mason*.

    The SNP are trying to show they are not Huns in order to appeal to Scottish Labor’s Catholic support, who are *extremely suspicious of the nativist overtones of independence.

    Lomg read historical perspective on international ramifications by the brilliant historian Brendan Simms

    https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2019/09/backdoor-backstop-ireland-s-shifting-relationship-britain-and-europe
    The establishment of a separate Irish polity, therefore, took place at a time when it was safe for Britain in Europe. England’s security was Ireland’s opportunity. […] The relationship was so lopsided that when the UK applied to join the EEC in the 1960s, Dublin had to follow suit, withdrawing its application after De Gaulle’s famous veto, before finally following Britain into the community in 1973. […] Theresa May’s government accepted the EU logic, and, in effect, its claim to act as the arbiter of the European order. …The result was the most one-sided deal in British history. In addition to various other EU demands, the UK agreed to the famous “backstop”. […] A colossal clash of ordering systems now looms. The Irish Republic has been not so much caught in the crossfire as ridden to the sound of the guns. […] In short, the EU believe that the conflict will be over by Christmas. Such an outcome cannot be ruled out, but to anyone familiar with British history, the latent strength of the present-day UK, and the profound structural weaknesses of the EU, it seems unlikely. A prolonged clash is more probable, in which the gulf between Britain and the Continent will only deepen. […] The economic fallout will hit Ireland as much as or more than Britain. The harsher Brussels is towards London, in fact, the worse it will be for Dublin. Britain’s difficulty will be Ireland’s catastrophe.

    The Republic of (Southern) Ireland has always been treated as if it was still part of the UK, for instance citizens of Eire can uniquely walk into Britain any time they feel like with a right of residence, get welfare benefits and even vote as well.

  57. dfordoom says: • Website

    But many American nationalists, as i am, are all for Scotland and Wales seceding from the UK, Catalonia seceding from Spain, and if necessary California seceding from the USA.

    You can’t really be a nationalist unless you believe in nationalism for everyone. To be consistent you have to believe that Scotland, Catalonia, Flanders, etc should all be given their independence. California of course should be returned to Mexico.

    To be a nationalist you can’t really be a colonialist. You have to believe that the US should give up its colonial possessions (like Hawaii) and Britain should give up the remnants of its empire (like Gibraltar).

    Of course nationalism taken to its logical conclusions would mean the dissolution of most nation states. Bavaria for the Bavarians! Cornwall for the Cornish. Brittany for the Bretons.

    Unfortunately it would probably prove to be a disaster. I would like to see the Scots and the Welsh and the Hawaiians get their countries back though.

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  58. Richard B says:
    @RadicalCenter

    It’s also worth pointing out that many American Nationalists, like myself, aren’t on the Right or Left.

  59. @A123

    We’d soon need to extend that wall around the other nascent Islamic countries in Europe, such as Sweden and Belgium the soonest, next France, then Italy and Austria, and so on. A wall around Germany doesn’t solve the problem.

    • Replies: @A123
  60. A123 says:
    @RadicalCenter

    You are jumping in at the end of a discussuon. My point is — A wall around Germany makes much more sense than Germany’s proposal of a wall between Ireland and the UK.

    That being said, you are correct. There are better options to deal with worshipers of the black crescent swastika flag.

    One has to believe that this flag is the personal symbol of Mullah Mutti Merkel.

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @nokangaroos
  61. Hank Yobo says:
    @RadicalCenter

    Secession for thee but not for me. How many American nationalist would support the reappearance of the Confederate States? What’s sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander. By the way, Scotland and Wales were part of the United Kingdom long before the USA was brought into existence.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  62. @nokangaroos

    Other than that, the only medium-term problem I see are the fugees
    (probably, like the Diesel “scandal” and the Greta zombie outbreak, a concerted effort to take them down a notch or two).

    Anything is preferable to losing several birth cohorts.

    Look at the survival rate of boys born in 1920.

    On the other hand, the destruction of Germany’s most important industry by means of triggering German self hate might be seen as a preparation for much worse things.

    Th demographic reform is even more threatening. Look at inner city birth rates, compare natives to settlers.

    • Agree: nokangaroos
  63. @A123

    The black flags with the neat silver symbols saved Europe once already – 100 years ago.

    … though I admit it is a running joke that Our Lady of the Victory in Vienna should be rechristened because the Turkish camp is AGAIN there 😛

  64. @dfordoom

    Let´s not overdo it 😀

    Greater Bavaria from the Main to the Etsch has been briefly discussed after WWI.
    I like the idea … Switzerland would get the Alemannic exclave (“What, therefore, God hath put asunder by a mountain shall not man join by a tunnel.”) which would also do away with Liechtenstein (they pride themselves in being the only part of the actual Roman Empire that was never conquered – because no one since deigned to – and have more fake corporations than residents).
    Other than that, clawing the Six Tribes apart would do away with more states than I wish to contemplate (though it would solve the Flanders problem – Belgium was created by the British to keep Germany and France at war)

    How easy have it the English:
    -Build a high-speed rail to Edinburgh and leave them the oil proceeds.
    -Tell the Welsh putting a red dragon on their sausages is no longer “misleading advertisement” and declare victory.
    -The Cornish may be safely left in their own juices.

    Euskadi and the former Asturias – a modicum of language and fiscal autonomy will do; look at South Tyrol – and pray for no Spexit 😛

    Gibraltar was taken by German mercenaries anyway, so no problem.

    Hawaii, Puerto Rico and Guantanamo – well sure!
    And the Treaty of Guadelupe Hidalgo is being revised as we watch 😀

  65. @A123

    Let´s put aside the jingoism for a moment – we are not Hottentots.
    (my apologies to the erstwhile Khwekhwena – just a figger of speech)

    Being an island is a boon in the short and medium term – it has made Venice great, then the Vikings, Japan, Britain and then the US. Long term it is not so good … Bismarck said every generation that get their asses kicked is followed by one that kicks ass – so what if you do not get kicked for too long?

    The last world war Britain “won” was the War of Jenkins´Ear.
    The Empire´s inflection point was the Battle of Maiuba Hill 1851.
    From 1908 on it has been steady downwards (the US currently is at that point); forcing “Made in Germany” on their wares to mark them as inferior was the final shot in Britannia´s clit and an admission of defeat if only she had recognized it (Germany is not “stealing” anyone´s money any more than China is).
    Churchill´s quip viz Gandhi (that he “didn´t become prime minister to sell out the empire”) was already delusional.

    Your industrial base is approaching Romanian standards, you do not rule the waters in Hyde Park let alone the South China Sea, and do not get me started on demographics.

    Whatever the Brexit cheerleaders have in mind – it is not what they tell you.
    Only the City will get fat – and only by methods that will bring the ire of Europe on your unused heads. For you, it will mean more immigration, from less desirable demographics, and far worse trading conditions. And fantasizing about the Nathan Kaufman Plan will not make YOU better off either – indeed nuking China and Pakistan would make slightly more sense (“If every German were dead today there would be no Britisher who wouldn´t be that much richer tomorrow” is sooo 19th century).

    So here you are, feeling omni by holding poor little Ireland hostage?

    Gimme a break.

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
    , @A123
  66. Hank Yobo says:
    @nokangaroos

    The last world war Britain “won” was the War of Jenkins´Ear.

    They did pretty well in the Seven Years’ War and I think that they were the victors of that little dust up with Napoleon. WWI and WWII: they were dictating terms to the Germans.

  67. @Hank Yobo

    That I was a child I spake like a child also 😀

    If “being on the right side at war´s end” were the same, Italy´s battle flag – white eagle on a white field – would now be flying everywhere.

    What I was trying to say is we have more pressing problems than warming over White-on-White animosities (Cui bono anyway?) and if anything has outlived both purpose and welcome it is NATO and not the EU.

    (I should probably note I voted against the EU for much the same reasons enumerated here and would rather see the Soros troupe on the nearest lantern also 😉 )

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
  68. Hank Yobo says:
    @nokangaroos

    When I was a child . . . I read history books; a beneficial pursuit in adulthood as well and one that is available to all. The UK wasn’t just “on the winning side at war’s end,” HM’s forces were major players in all those conflicts and distinguished themselves in the process. November 11th is rapidly approaching. Lest we forget.

  69. A123 says:
    @nokangaroos

    So here you are, feeling omni by holding poor little Ireland hostage?

    I want Ireland to be free and prosperous. So, your bizzaro land accusation makes no sense.

    Perhaps you looked in a mirror and saw youself? You and your heros, Soros and Merkel, want to keep Ireland in chains under the rule of anti-Christian Globalism. They are the ones who do not care what happens to the Irish people, as long as they get to punish the UK for leaving their EU “utopia” ruled by the unelected elites of the EU Commission.

    Why do you want the people of Ireland to suffer under such despicable EU tyrants?

    PEACE 😇

  70. IIRC George Mikes defined a (British) “gentleman” as once “someone who is independently wealthy” but nowadays someone who, “no matter how poor he is, he still refuse to do useful work”.

    Keep the stiff upper lip 😀

  71. @Hank Yobo

    What I wrote was the opposite of “secession for me, but not for thee.” Read again, please. I said I’m fine with CA seceding from the USA, my country.

    And I don’t much care how long Scotland and Wales have been part of formerly-great formerly-Britain. If they’re wise, they’ll get out of the UK and stay out of the EU (until and unless the EU stops forcibly colonizing its once-white non-Muslim member countries with largely-Muslim Africans, Arabs, Pakis/Indians, Turks, etc., which seems vanishingly unlikely).

    We are both aware that Scotland appears likely to use its eventual “independence” to invite their own immivaders and facilitate the dispossession of its people and destruction of their culture, language, social trust, cohesiveness, group loyalty and affection, prosperity, and safety. Scots in an independent Scotland, then, will end up ruled by hostile aliens just like the English marooned in Islamic “England.”

  72. @Hank Yobo

    More self-delusion by Brits and their fans.

    WW1 was decisively won by the USA’s foolish entry on the side of “the UK.”
    Without the US in WW1, “the UK” would have achieve a stalemate at best.

    WW2 was won FAR, FAR, FAR more by the USSR than “the UK”, especially by Russians annihilating Nazi troops en masse on the eastern front.

    Moreover, without the US foolishly entering WW2, “the UK” would have been thoroughly crushed and occupied by National Socialist Germany before Hitler invaded Russia.

    Anyway, the English, and Great Britain more broadly, are well and truly finished. Just where the USA is heading, it seems.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @Hank Yobo
  73. dfordoom says: • Website
    @RadicalCenter

    Moreover, without the US foolishly entering WW2, “the UK” would have been thoroughly crushed and occupied by National Socialist Germany before Hitler invaded Russia.

    Very unlikely. There was zero chance of Germany successfully invading Britain. There was also zero chance of Britain presenting any real threat to Germany. It was a standoff.

    On the other hand Britain was broke by 1941 so by the end of the year they would have had to accept a negotiated peace with Germany. It would not have been a surrender though. Britain had not actually been defeated. The war between Britain and Germany would have ended in stalemate.

    German military might has been ludicrously overrated. They defeated second-rate powers like France and third-rate powers like Poland and Yugoslavia. When they came up against a first-rate opponent (the Soviet Union) they got comprehensively stomped.

    Britain’s martial prowess is similarly overrated. They did well against the Italians. The British army did very badly against the Germans but the English Channel and their powerful navy and air force made them safe from invasion. They got humiliated by the Japanese. Which was a good thing since it meant the end of the British Empire.

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  74. Misanthrope says: • Website

    I have always found it ironic that Germany has now accomplished all that it ever wanted for losing two world wars.

  75. Skeptikal says:
    @reiner Tor

    And you didn’t even mention the priceless artworks, historical objects, precious furnishings, etc. they and their minions stole from collectors, museums, galleries, individuals, municipalities, even hospitals and other “civil” entities in both Germany and all of the occupied territories.

  76. Hank Yobo says:
    @RadicalCenter

    WW1 was decisively won by the USA’s foolish entry on the side of “the UK.”
    Without the US in WW1, “the UK” would have achieve a stalemate at best.

    A contemporary quote, circa 1917-18, observed that the American army, like their Rainbow Division, only appeared after the storm.

  77. dfordoom says: • Website

    A contemporary quote, circa 1917-18, observed that the American army, like their Rainbow Division, only appeared after the storm.

    The back of the German army had been broken by the failure of their spring offensive in 1918, which was defeated mostly by the British (and by British Empire troops). The subsequent Allied offensive was won mostly by the British (and by British Empire troops).

    Germany was beaten anyway. The eventual appearance of the American army on the scene in significant numbers transformed the defeat of Germany into a total collapse of Germany. In the long run that was a bad thing. It allowed the Allies (especially the French) to get away with imposing humiliating terms on the Germans which in turn were at least partly responsible for the rise of the Nazis.

    There were two sane options for a peace settlement. One would have been to impose moderate terms on Germany in the hope that this would lead to long-term peace. The other sane option would have been to dismember Germany so that it could never again be a threat.

    If you win a fight with a guy in a bar you can shake his hand afterwards and hope he’ll become your friend, or you can finish him off so he’ll never be able to start another fight. What you don’t do is to humiliate him so that when he recovers he’ll come back into the same bar and pick another fight with you.

    • Agree: Hank Yobo
  78. @dfordoom

    It’s hard to say that the German troops didn’t fight effectively. Didn’t the Germans inflict far greater losses on the Soviets than they suffered?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  79. dfordoom says: • Website
    @RadicalCenter

    It’s hard to say that the German troops didn’t fight effectively. Didn’t the Germans inflict far greater losses on the Soviets than they suffered?

    If you read the accounts of the German generals written after the war then the Germans won the war. They apparently destroyed five times as many tanks as the Soviets possessed. The Germans were robbed of victory by the unfair scoring system. Just because Soviet tanks rolled into Berlin in 1945 we’re told that the Soviets “won” the war.

    Of course in the real world Germany suffered annihilating defeat.

  80. augusto says:

    I can’t understand why the author is soooo much anti-nationalism.
    Of course there are two basic types of nationalism. But you, europeans and americans should rethink and learn that national policies are no crime and no error.
    Examples: the US turned into a big pçower thru nationallist policies,
    The URSS has turned from an agrarian feudal landscape to a) defeat the powerful Germany in 25 years with nationalism b) to put into orbit the first ever astronaut in 40 years only
    Learn one thing: for very small countries (like uruguay or Ceylon) clearly avoiding nationalism results good and efficient, For much bigger and quasi self sufficient ones like Mexico or Brazil OF COURSE a steady nationalist focus and policy is the BEST thing. Because they are underdeveloped or half way to!!
    To advocate otherwise is the same as saying: well, now that we Europeans or americans have fairly developed our place and citizes to high level – thru nationalism – IT is time to deliver those poor third world ones the exact r.e.v.e.r.se recipe.
    Namely, we DOND renounce to develop ourselves, just like you did and better take your recipes to clean up your mommy’s underwear.
    Is that put clear?

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