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Iraq 'Ready for War' with Turkey Over Who Should Control Mosul After Isis
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Iraq and Turkey are threatening to go to war with each other over who should hold power in Mosul and the surrounding region after the defeat of Isis. Turkish tanks and artillery have deployed along the border and Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi has said that while Iraq “did not want war with Turkey” it is ready to fight one if necessary.

The confrontation is sharpening as the Iraqi Army enters eastern Mosul and Shia militia known as the Hashd al-Shaabi advance towards the town of Tal Afar, threatening to cut Isis’s last escape route from Mosul to Syria. Turkey sees itself as the protector of the Sunni Arabs of Mosul and northern Iraq, a community left vulnerable by the likely defeat of Isis by Shia and Kurdish forces backed by US-led airpower.

The dependence of the anti-Isis forces on air strikes and drones was underlined on Wednesday when Iraqi Special Forces delayed their advance into east Mosul because high humidity and clouds made it difficult for aircraft to identify and attack targets on the ground. They had entered the industrial suburb of Gogjali on Tuesday and were Wednesday going from house to house looking for Improvised Explosive Devices (IEDs) and booby traps.

The population of Mosul east of the Tigris River, which divides the city in half, has in the past consisted largely of well-educated professional people such as doctors and engineers, few of whom are likely to be sympathetic to Isis. Residents in the east say they expected Isis to withdraw to the western side of Mosul, which is more sympathetic to them, crossing the five bridges spanning the Tigris which, the residents say, have been rigged with demolition charges.

The Iraqi government reacted angrily to the possibility of Turkish intervention. “The invasion of Iraq will lead to Turkey being dismantled,” said Mr Abadi at a news conference in Baghdad on Tuesday. “We do not want war with Turkey, and we do not want a confrontation with Turkey, but if a confrontation happens, we are ready for it.” He added that Iraq would consider Turkey as an enemy and would deal with it as an enemy.

The exchange of abuse between Ankara and Baghdad continued on Wednesday when Turkish Foreign Minister Mevlut Cavusoglu denounced Mr Abadi as “weak”, asking: “If you have the strength, why did you surrender Mosul to terror organisations? If you are so strong, why has the PKK occupied your lands for years?” Earlier Turkey’s deputy prime minister Numan Kurtulmus had tried to lower the temperature by saying that the military build-up was a precaution and not a threat.


Iraqi leaders in Baghdad have long privately blamed Turkey for aiding or tolerating al-Qaeda-type movements like Isis which operated in Iraq, but the ill-will is now becoming more public on both sides. On 11 October President Recep Tayyip Erdogan launched a furious tirade against Mr Abadi, saying: “He insults me. You are not on the same level as me! You are not my equal! Scream all you want from Iraq! It will not change anything! We will do what we want to do.” On 23 October, Mr Erdogan further raised the stakes by asserting Mosul has historically belonged to Turkey and it should therefore play a role in determining its future.

Turkey already has 700 troops at a base in Bashiqa, north of Mosul, and has been training a Sunni Arab militia force of former policemen from Mosul numbering about 2,500. This force is probably not big enough to make Turkey a player in the struggle for the city and political observers in Irbil believe Turkey will not intervene militarily. But this could change if the Hashd attack Tal Afar, whose Turkman population is about 80 per cent Sunni and which is the home town of many Isis commanders, judges and religious police. Turkey would also be energised if the PKK was visibly benefiting from developments in and around Mosul. Another more cynical interpretation of Turkey’s focus on Mosul is that it is to divert attention from its muted response to the Syrian and Russian assault on East Aleppo.

The fall of Mosul is likely to give birth to a series of crises because the province of Nineveh, of which it is the capital, is a mosaic of warring sects and ethnic groups. After years of war these are divided by deep hatreds, with Yazidis, Kurds and Christians all accusing their Sunni Arab neighbours of complicity in Isis massacres. In Nineveh Plain most of the Sunni Arabs have fled into Mosul city fearing revenge from returning Christians and the Shabak minority who are largely Shia.

Revenge is taking place within sectarian and ethnic groups, some of whom joined Isis while others fought it. Amnesty International says that pro-Iraqi government Sunni tribal fighters taking part in the Mosul operation are carrying out revenge attacks on men and boys in “liberated” areas suspected of belonging to Isis. Fighters from the Sabawi tribe, originally from Mosul, are said by Amnesty to have illegally detained civilians, beaten them with metal rods, given them electric shocks and tied some of them to the bonnets of vehicles and paraded them through the streets while others were placed in cages, according to interviews with local officials and eyewitnesses. Many people displaced from Mosul and surrounding towns and villages say they will not return home until security is restored and this is still a long way off.

(Republished from The Independent by permission of author or representative)
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Iraq, ISIS, Turkey 
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  1. We in the West continue to pursue some ephemeral “justice” while those in the ME know that in the end “The Sword will Decide.”

    Busy, busy, busy.


    Contemplation of the Sword

    Reason will not decide at last; the sword will decide.
    The sword: an obsolete instrument of bronze or steel,
    formerly used to kill men, but here
    In the sense of a symbol. The sword: that is: the storms
    and counter-storms of general destruction; killing
    of men,
    Destruction of all goods and materials; massacre, more or
    less intentional, of children and women;
    Destruction poured down from wings, the air made accomplice,
    the innocent air
    Perverted into assasin and poisoner.

    The sword: that is: treachery and cowardice, incredible
    baseness, incredible courage, loyalties, insanities.
    The sword: weeping and despair, mass-enslavement,
    mass-tourture, frustration of all hopes
    That starred man’s forhead. Tyranny for freedom, horror for
    happiness, famine for bread, carrion for children.
    Reason will not decide at last, the sword will decide.

    Dear God, who are the whole splendor of things and the sacred
    stars, but also the cruelty and greed, the treacheries
    And vileness, insanities and filth and anguish: now that this
    thing comes near us again I am finding it hard
    To praise you with a whole heart.
    I know what pain is, but pain can shine. I know what death is,
    I have sometimes
    Longed for it. But cruelty and slavery and degredation,
    pestilence, filth, the pitifulness
    Of men like hurt little birds and animals . . . if you were only
    Waves beating rock, the wind and the iron-cored earth,
    With what a heart I could praise your beauty.
    You will not repent, nor cancel life, nor free man from anguish
    For many ages to come. You are the one that tortures himself to discover himself: I am
    One that watches you and discovers you, and praises you in little parables, idyl or tragedy,


    Intolerable God.

    The sword: that is:
    I have two sons whom I love. They are twins, they were born
    in nineteen sixteen, which seemed to us a dark year
    Of a great war, and they are now of the age
    That war prefers. The first-born is like his mother, he is so beautiful
    That persons I hardly know have stopped me on the street to
    speak of the grave beauty of the boy’s face.
    The second-born has strength for his beauty; when he strips
    for swimming the hero shoulders and wrestler loins
    Make him seem clothed. The sword: that is: loathsome disfigurements,
    blindness, mutilation, locked lips of boys
    Too proud to scream.
    Reason will not decide at last: the sword will decide.

    Robinson Jeffers

  2. Rehmat says:

    Mosul have been part of Iraqi state since it was created out of Ottoman province of al-Shams (Syria) by the British colonialists after WWI.

    Now if Erdogan want the oil-rich Mosul region based on Ottoman empires history – he should also put his claim on Israel (Palestine), Syria, Jordan and Lebanon too. I’m sure the ide might have crossed Erdogan’s mind but he must have shuddered on the thought of Israel’s 400 nukes verses 87 NATO nukes in Turkey.

    As long as Iraqi Army and Shia fighters have Iranian advisers – Erdogan will never dare to put his hands on Mosul. He should learn American humiliation at the hands of Shia leader Muqtada Sadr.

  3. Diogenes says:

    Erdogan is playing a treacherous game by trying to take advantage of the destabilization caused by ISIS in Syria and Iraq in order to grab territory adjacent to Turkey on the pretext of fighting Kurdish and ISIS “terrorists” or protecting indigenous Turkman. He is trying to take advantage of a militarily weak Iraqi army which is nevertheless allied with the US in fighting ISIS. Has he cut a deal with the Americans to grab Iraqi lands? He seems to have already to cut a deal with Russia to grab Syrian lands. The Americans want to capture Raqqa ,before the Syrians and Russians, who are still busy trying to capture East Aleppo after a long humanitarian pause, can focus on ISIS. If the Americans and their FSA allies get to Raqqa first they will be able to establish a FSA enclave with an American no fly zone over the area which the Russians dare not challenge. So the losing battle in Aleppo is going to cause Syria to lose ground to the Turk and Syrian puppets of America. With the Russian fleet nearing Syria we should expect Russia to finish off the “moderate” rebels and move on to ISIS in Raqqa province. The stakes are high and the gap between the Americans and Russians in Syria is going to close with unknown consequences.

    • Replies: @E. A. Costa
  4. Anyone who supported the butchers of ISIS deserves any grisly revenge they get.

    • Replies: @OutWest
  5. The Turks used to get a good beating from Russia every half century or so to calm them down.

    • Replies: @Cato
  6. Amnesty International says that pro-Iraqi government Sunni tribal fighters taking part in the Mosul operation are carrying out revenge attacks on men and boys in “liberated” areas suspected of belonging to Isis.

    Given the state of flux, security-wise, in the region, I’d say these aren’t just revenge attacks – they’re prophylactic actions to prevent the recurrence of the atrocities mounted against their friends, relatives or tribal allies. When the state is unwilling or unable to defend you and yours against a community (Salafists) that seems to have coalesced to enslave or kill you, then it is up to you to ensure that the people who have threatened your life are permanently dealt with, either through expulsion or outright annihilation, if they refuse to leave.

  7. unit472 says:

    Rather fanciful idea Iraq waging war on its much larger and better equipped neighbor Turkey. Unless the Iraqis have received some assurance of US Air Force protection, their army, such as it is, would be under continuous bombardment from hundreds of Turkish F-16’s.

    Obama seems to have let loose a global phenomenon of third rate leaders of second rate nations shooting their mouths off with bellicose rhetoric. From Putin to Duterte to Erdogan to Abadi the world has not seen the likes of this since the days of Idi Amin and “Emperor’ Bokassa!

  8. […] explains that after ISIS is expelled from Mosul, war could break out between Turkey and Iraq. [Link] ISIS War […]

  9. @Rehmat

    The Rehmat syndicate is probably right about Turkey not moving on Mosul, and largely because of Iran. But please try and use correct lucid English. Since the British never colonised Iraq what could you possibly be saying by “created by the British colonislists” which adds something true and meaningful to “created by the British [OR British government]”? At a stretch you might call it an imperialist policy or action but “colonialist” is rubbish.

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  10. Rehmat says:

    If you dare to watch Hollywood movie, “Lawrence of Arabia” – it might dawn to you that I was right about and you’re another Netanyahu lying pig.

    Both British and French shared the colonization of al-Shams (Greater Syria). Britain awarded Iraq and Jordan to two Arab princes who helped British army against Ottoman empire – and authored the notorious Balfour Declaration to revenge Sultan Abdul Hamid kicking Herzl’s dirty butts.

    French on its part created Lebanon out Syria for Christians whom Paris thought would loan Litani River to Europe’s unwanted Jews to “make Palestinian desert Green”.

    Watch American journalist Abigail Suzanne (Abby) Martin’s latest investigative documentary (watch below), entitled, “How Palestine became Israel”.

    • Replies: @Sherman
    , @Joe Levantine
  11. Che Guava says:

    Mr. Cockburn,

    I have long appreciated your writing.

    Turkey sees itself as the protector of the Sunni Arabs of Mosul and northern Iraq, a community left vulnerable by the likely defeat of Isis by Shia and Kurdish forces backed by US-led airpower.

    You know as well as anyone that Turkey has a big responsibility for the recent mess, sure, more in Syria. Does it not matter at all that the govt. in Iraq is asking the Turks to go away?

    They have no right, under international law, to be there in the first place. It is a huge violation.

    As they and the US have no right to be anywhere in Syria, where they provide non-stop support to Islamic State and the many near-identical groups.

    Sick situation.

  12. Is this a joke? What kind of insane Ziocon writes this kind of trash?

  13. Sherman says:

    Hey Homer

    I read an article in The NY Times the other day that was very interesting.

    It seems that Arab citizens of Israel are promoting their food to Israeli Jews. Some Arab restaurant owners are becoming wealthy and there are even Arab chefs who are becoming celebrities of sorts in Israel.

    Funny how Arabs in Israel are getting rich while Arabs in Arab countries are butchering each other.

    It seems that Muslims are only successful when they aren’t ruled by other Muslims.


    • Replies: @Rehmat
  14. OutWest says:
    @Fidelios Automata

    As opposed to those that supported the various other butchers?

  15. anon • Disclaimer says:

    He should learn American humiliation at the hands of Shia leader Muqtada Sadr.

    Its much easier to learn humiliation from the Pakistani people . A good example is when they lost the Bengladesh war and were defeated in battle by the Jewish General JFR Jacob. Pakistan was forced to surrender to a Jew !!!!!!!

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  16. Talha says:

    It is becoming more and more apparent to me just how tremendous of a crime it was to invade Iraq in the first place – all these massacres and mini-genocides unleashed by a war of choice. I knew it was going to be a mistake, but I never thought it was going to get this bad.

    Perhaps, due to all of the various, conflicted people that reside there, there may be a need for a neutral joint military force that establishes a general peace until things calm down and everything is sorted out. Something made of Muslim countries from outside the region; Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, etc. Of course everyone would have to be willing to allow that and likely his couldn’t take place until the situation next door in Syria is resolved. Just some thoughts.

    May God grant that area safety and those various people the patience and the ability to forgive and reconcile.


  17. Rehmat says:

    Well – your old geek Ben-Gurion knew Pakistanis very well. Why don’t you visit his grave in West Jerusalem to check what he told Knesset in 1951.

    “Pakistan’s Nuclear Research Institute is an existential threat to Israel,” the coward Zionist Jew cried out. Mind you, Pakistan only tested its first nuclear bomb over two decade after the coward died.

    In September 2013, Canadian member of Israel Hasbara Committee, Tarek Tatah, speaking at the ‘International Institute for Counter-Terrorism’ annual conference in Herzliya reminded the coward Zionists about that threat.

    “Pakistan is only 300 kilometers from Israel and Pakistan has long-range missiles capable of reaching Israel with nuclear warheads on them,” he said.

    • Replies: @Sherman
    , @Hannah Katz
    , @anon
  18. Sherman says:

    Hey Homer

    Not only are you evil and crazy but you are also stupid.

    Ben Gurion is buried in the Negev, not Jerusalem.


    • Replies: @Rehmat
  19. @Rehmat

    Coward Zionist Jew? Really Rehmat? Every Arab country that has messed with Israel has gotten their heads handed to them. Their soldiers can all speak one Hebrew phrase. נא לא לירות בי! אני נכנע! “Please don’t shoot me! I surrender!” What a putz you are.

    • Replies: @Rehmat
    , @L.K
  20. “Turkey sees itself as the protector of the Sunni Arabs of Mosul and northern Iraq”.

    Very funny–had to stop reading here. There is an important difference between “seeing oneself as” and “trying to present oneself as”.

    By the way, meanwhile Señor Ash Carter recently said he is trying to work out a “role for Turkey” in the much fanfared future US-led Coalition “attack” on Raqqa.

    The US-forged narratives march on, and Mr. Cockburn seems unquestioningly to fall for them all.

  21. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Israel never unconditionally surrendered to a Paki. Pakistan , however , has suffered the humiliation of unconditional surrender to a Jew , the great JFR Jacob .Must be a tough pill to swallow for you. Or maybe not , knowing your national origin and cultural habits ,you may have done a good deal of swallowing in your youth as a Bacha Bazzi …….

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  22. @Diogenes

    The Russians, and with them the legitimately elected Syrian government–with a vastly improving army by the way, with some tough Iranians and other Shi’a fighters–are biding their time. The terrorist-occupied section of Aleppo is taken whenever they want, so they are sitting back and looking for the kairos–the decisive moment. It is no longer a question of military capacity to do so–there are other interesting variables to countenance.

    A US-led coalition force in Raqqa is obviously planned and no doubt a US no fly zone over it. No doubt also the Russians and the Syrians could stop it in the short-term if they wanted to, but one posits a Russian strategic genius somewhere, in the mold of Zhukov perhaps, who has had a devilish illumination: “Wait a moment, Sirs, why do we want to stop the United Statesians from getting involved in Raqqa. I have a better idea!”

    No doubt Ash Carter has consulted the Delphic Oracle under the pseudonym Croesus, where he got the response, “If the US takes Raqqa a great empire will fall.”

    Unlike the Unitedstatesians, who learned nothing in Vietnam, the Russians learned a lot in Afghanistan. Merely as a brainteaser, for example, what would a “reverse Zbigniewsky” look like?

    On verra.

    • Replies: @Diogenes
  23. Diogenes says:
    @E. A. Costa

    I usually don’t engage in pointless running commentaries but I will make an exception for you.
    The Americans want to capture Raqqa and they are talking to the Turks on how to do it but have a delicate problem of how to include their boots on the ground the YPG without getting the Turks upset.
    I can’t imagine Assad giving up on winning Raqqa but perhaps the Russians are not prepared to fight for it and are willing to let it fall under American control. I think that would be a mistake but perhaps the Russians will have a big enough job to destroy the Jihadists in Western Syria as it is let alone simultaneously move toward Raqqa. Yes, perhaps they will need to consolidate their gains and prepare for an American challenge of a no fly zone. In any case, I don’t believe destroying ISIS will present much of a problem for the Americans and their Kurdish allies nor for the Turks. The ISIS caliphate is as good as dead and will have to become a meddlesome insurgency in Iraq and Syria instead.

  24. Rehmat says:

    Hey Sharon….

    Tell me who would be stupid – a Canadian nuclear engineer or some Israeli pimp?

    • Replies: @Avery
  25. Rehmat says:

    Lucky for the Jew pussies ……

    Could you explain to readers O’ the Great whore of Zionism ….. If your Jewish army was defeated by a bunch of Hizbullah fighters in 2000, and 2006 – how could it fight with one million-strong Pakistan Army laced with 110 nuclear bombs?

    In 2012, even Netanyahu admitted that Israeli Generals are PUSSIES ….

    • Replies: @anon
  26. Rehmat says:
    @Hannah Katz

    What would you call those Jews laced with American donated modern arm being afraid of Palestinian youth with stones in their hands?

    Think twice before kissing your own bottom, moron.

  27. @Talha

    It is becoming more and more apparent to me just how tremendous of a crime it was to invade Iraq in the first place – all these massacres and mini-genocides unleashed by a war of choice.

    Do Iraqi Kurds and Shiites consider it a crime? Would they prefer to live under a Sunni Arab dictatorship? Because that would come as news to the Kurdish and Shiite men trying to strangle such a rebirth in its crib. Note that Saddam unleashed his prophylactic massacres against Kurds and Shiites for the same reasons that Kurds and Shiites are conducting them against Sunni Arabs – unless Allah or Muhammad show up with their heavenly hosts to keep the peace, being defeated means large scale death for them and theirs followed by years or decades of economic disadvantage for the survivors. When it comes to killing, it is generally better to give than receive, which is why Kurds and Shiites are in no hurry to hand over the reins of power to yet another Sunni Arab Saddam.

  28. @Talha

    Perhaps, due to all of the various, conflicted people that reside there, there may be a need for a neutral joint military force that establishes a general peace until things calm down and everything is sorted out. Something made of Muslim countries from outside the region; Malaysia, Morocco, Oman, etc. Of course everyone would have to be willing to allow that and likely his couldn’t take place until the situation next door in Syria is resolved. Just some thoughts.

    Why would Kurds and Shiites consider Sunni troops, who tend to side with Sunni Arabs, to be honest brokers? Their problem isn’t anarchy – it’s the Sunni Arab attempt at re-conquest, accompanied by sectarian massacres, and domination. Even if an even-handed Sunni Arab dictatorship were possible, why would they want to take the chance?

    • Replies: @Talha
  29. @Rehmat

    Turkey is a fairly poor country with limited resources! In order to keep its industry from failing it needs cheap fossil fuels! Erdogan has developed a taste for cheap oil $5-$10 per barrel that has been and continues to purchase from ISIS! Now he sees the source is dryin up and diminishing when ISIS is kicked out of Musel! He is trying everything he can to keep a finger in the oil rich region in Iraq! But the Iraqis will kick his ass out of there without any help from anyone or any foreign force!

  30. The problem with all that is, Iraqi central government does not have control over Iraqi-Turkish border for more than 2 decades. So even if the Turks decide to create a buffer zone like the one in Syria, they will not clash with Iraqis because nearest Iraqi troops are nearly 40 miles away from the border.

    Apart from that, Turks have nothing to gain from grabbing Iraqi Kurdish land, the are between Turkey and Mosul is overwhelmingly Kurdish with small number of Arabs and even smaller number of Turkic speakers. It will be very hard for Turkish leadership to convince the public for millions of additional Kurds and Arabs.

  31. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Hi , Ramhole the takkiyah troll

    I know that you are inbred ( Pakistan is the world leader in incest and birth defects ) but still I think it is within the realm of possibility for you to master the concept of surrender. Israel never surrendered to hezbola . In fact hezballa incurred 10x more casualties than Israel did and in fact the fat greasy pig leader nasrallah admitted he made a mistake by provoking Israel .

    Had Hezbollah known how Israel was going to respond, the group would not have captured two Israeli soldiers last month in northern Israel, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said Sunday.

    In contrast , your country Pakistan was defeated in battle by the great Indian Jewish general JFR Jacob . The Pakistani military had to accept defeat and unconditional surrender to a Jew !!!!!!!!!!!
    There was a beautiful photo on this site in the Bangladesh article with General Niaazi of Pakistan sitting in defeat and signing the surrender with a the victorious Jewish Lion JFR Jacob towering over him in the background.

    • Replies: @L.K
  32. Avery says:

    {a Canadian nuclear engineer ….}

    You? A, quote, ‘Canadian’?
    A Pakistani anti-Christian, anti-West IslamoFascist parasite?
    What happened to all the ‘White’ Canadian imperialists you kept ragging about, while squatting in Christian Canada?
    When did you decide to become ‘Canadian’?

    You are not Canadian: you are an anti-Canadian Pakistani IslamoFascist.

    And someone who links to loser David Duke to prove something or other proves he himself is a loser. The loser gives himself the title ‘Dr’, because he somehow got a Ph.D. from some Ukrainian alleged ‘university’.

    He is a convicted felon.
    He cheated his supporters by using the money they donated to him for gambling.

    And you are an ingrate IslamoFascist anti-Christian parasite, squatting in Christian Canada, scratching out a living in a Canadian-bacon pig farm.
    You will become ‘Canadian’ when the pigs in your pig farm sprout wings and fly away – leaving you unemployed.

    • Replies: @Rehmat
  33. L.K says:

    anon: “In fact hezballa incurred 10x more casualties than Israel did”

    Anon, this is a RIDICULOUS LIE. As British MI6 analyst, Alastair Crooke, stated in his report about the 33 day war:

    But by any accounting – whether in rockets, armored vehicles or numbers of dead and wounded – Hezbollah’s fight against Israel must be accorded a decisive military and political victory.”

    Given that the IDF sissies suffered nearly 1.400 KIA/WIA in the 06 war, by your idiotic ratio, Hezbollah would have suffered some 14,000 casualties!!!
    This is more than the highest estimates for Hezbollahs ENTIRE active forces manpower(excluding reserves) back in 06!!

    But, they only used one brigade, some 3,000 men AND this brigade was far from destroyed when the war ended… in defeat for the israeli cowards.
    Hezbollah achieved this despite being badly outnumbered and despite israels MASSIVE advantages in firepower.

    A good example was the Battle of Ayta ash-Sha’b, a small village located in southern Lebanon, about 1 km northeast of the ‘Israeli’ border.
    The following IDF units took part in the battle; 35th Paratroopers Brigade,101st battalion,890th battalion, Nahal Brigade, 2nd Infantry Brigade, 847th Reserve Brigade, 8219th Engineering Battalion…all this fully supported by the IAF. Against some 60 odd Hezb troops. The result was that Israel failed to capture the town.
    This interview with a Hezbollah soldier who fought in the Battle of Ayta ash-Sha’b, sums up the IDF best, @2:35

    The trooper says:
    We have seen them(israeli soldiers) fleeing like sheep. And it may be that the sheep by the end got used to the sound of bombing and wasn’t affected by it anymore. While the israeli soldier, you could hear his screams from hundreds of meters away when he was targeted.”
    It should be noted that casualty figures alone are not indicators of whether a side won or lost a war. There are numerous examples of military forces losing wars despite inflicting far more casualties on their enemies. It just was not the case with the idf sissies in 06 though.

    • Replies: @anon
  34. anon • Disclaimer says:

    Hmmmmmm aljazeera propaganda. Always good for a mild chuckle .

    But is strange and very curious that if it was such a victory for the hezbala, that the leader of said group , the bloated disgusting and extremely greasy pig hassan nasrallah should say this :

    Had Hezbollah known how Israel was going to respond, the group would not have captured two Israeli soldiers last month in northern Israel, Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah said Sunday.

    Rather strange way to talk about a resounding victory , indeed .

  35. L.K says:
    @Hannah Katz

    Well, Hannah, last time Israel actually won a war was in 73 & it initially suffered many defeats and needed massive US help. But even the glory days of the idf must be placed in its proper context;

    Colonel W. Patrick Lang is a retired senior officer of U.S. Military Intelligence and U.S. Army Special Forces (The Green Berets). He served in the Department of Defense both as a serving officer and then as a member of the Defense Senior Executive Service for many years. He is a highly decorated veteran of several of America’s overseas conflicts including the war in Vietnam.
    He knows the IDF.

    “I associated with and/or conducted liaison with The Israel Defense Force (IDF) for many years. This activity occurred as part of my regular duties as a US Army officer and later as a civilian executive of the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA)..”

    Here is what he had to say about the highly overated idf:

    It must be said that they[the Israelis] have typically been lucky in their enemies and that if they had faced more serious enemies, they would have had a much different experience than the ones they had. In the Golan Heights the Syrians gave them a very difficult time in 1973[…]The Jordanians gave them a run for their money in 1948-49. Hizbullah delivered a hint of the inherent limits in such a socio-military system in 2006 and now we are seeing whatever it is that we will see at Gaza.”

    It should be pointed out that, contrary to the myth of Arab Goliath vs Israeli David, in the war of 1948, particularly towards the end, the israelis outnumbered their enemies more than 2:1.

    • Replies: @mcohen
  36. Another brainteaser: The Syrian Democratic Forces (mostly Syrian Kurdish YPG) have announced that they and and only they will liberate Raqqa. The Turks, on the other hand, have told the US that under no circumstances will they allow Kurds to take or control the place.

    Question: if the US and Coalition plan is to support the SDF on the ground with air, will the Turks shoot down US or US Coalition planes over Raqqa? Will Turkish planes ignore any US no fly zone and get back into the habit of supporting ISIS? Will the US then shoot down Turkish planes?

    Would either event trigger a war of NATO against NATO?

    This no doubt at the moment seems all very far-fetched. But the structural elements are already in play, for very like events, if less dramatic.

    No wonder the Russians and Syrians are taking their time in Aleppo.

    If Mr. Putin had a Che Guevara–and Stephen Seagal does not quite fit the bill–he would now be writing Obama thanking him for overthrowing the elected government of the Ukraine, something to the effect–“Thanks so much, the RF could not have done it without you!”

    Wonder just how long the US will have to delay this legended future offensive while they scramble to turn more ISIS into moderate terrorists?

  37. mcohen says:

    no not sykes/picot the other one ….. lykes/apricot… a fruity in tuti

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  38. Talha says:
    @Johann Ricke

    Hey JR,

    Very good points here. Consider a couple of things; troops from Oman would be neither Shia nor Sunni and Malays are more likely to side with Kurds (if anyone in that region because of historical common bonds of the Shafi’i school).

    But putting all that aside. You are correct that the Sunnis dominated and did oppress during their time at the top; this is fact. One can indeed make the case that this is simply ‘payback’. So when will it stop? The initial Sunni insurgency which Daesh took over was a result of oppression at the local level by Shia militias. So if the Shias take over and do the same again, it will lead to a couple of possible results:
    1. Sunnis eventually uprising again when they get a chance – with or without extremism involved
    2. Cleansing out of the Sunni population by Kurds and Shias (who may or may not then go to blows themselves at a later time)

    Now if the Shias can take over and be magnanimous and conciliatory (as was Hezbollah when they took control of Southern Lebanon in 2000) then there is no need for outside interference. I am simply appealing to all sides to remember the sacredness of their bonds of brotherhood* and take the moral high road and end the bloodshed – and if that means bringing in other Muslims to help sort this out until tempers die down, then it should be considered.

    When it comes to killing, it is generally better to give than receive

    When it comes to oppression, it is always – with the view of the repercussions on the Day of Judgement – better to be on the receiving side than on the giving side.


    *”Do not revert to disbelief after me by striking the necks of one another!” – hadith reported in Bukhari

  39. mcohen says:

    ok i was sitting in synagogue listening to the wind blow.and i had a not a fart.
    goes like this..wind blows ,but you can hear it,feel it but not see it..ok
    now imagine if words and letters were being blown by the wind ..lookup and all you see is words covering the sky being blown about
    what if they become focused into messages and blown to your absorb those messages
    then when you speak your breath,the wind blowing from your lungs, reproduce those words and messages.

    bob dylan wrote this.he might be right.who knows

    How many roads must a man walk down
    Before you call him a man?
    How many seas must a white dove sail
    Before she sleeps in the sand?
    Yes, and how many times must the cannon balls fly
    Before they’re forever banned?
    The answer, my friend, is blowin’ in the wind
    The answer is blowin’ in the wind

    Yes, and how many years can a mountain exist
    Before it’s washed to the sea?
    Yes, and how many years can some people exist

    stand on a hill in a quiet place and listen to the sounds the wind makes
    words that you can hear…. words that you can feel…. words that make you see.
    could be words from G-d…..from the earth…..who knows

  40. mcohen says:

    10 years on and the late rafic hariri’s son is lebanons new prime minister,and syria is fighting a losing war.assad is being propped up by the russians and turkey is facing a serious buildup of forces from all directions.hezbollah has lost a substantial amount of men and resources.

    israel failed to secure a village.

  41. n230099 says:

    “Misak-i Millî”…not exactly a new concept.

  42. @mcohen

    Give AA a try, they have pretty good results, it’s free and there are usually a variety of meetings daily.

  43. n230099 says:

    Actually ‘Misak-i Millî’

  44. Marcus says:

    From what I’ve heard, the Barzani clan has good relations with Erdogan’s people, most likely Iraqi Kurdistan will continue as a pseudo-independent statelet under Turkish influence.

  45. @NoseytheDuke

    No, Sykes/Picot was never about planting British or French colonists in the ME so…. unless you take a free and easy Humpty Dumpty attitude to the use of well established words “imperialism” would be at least a better word to describe what the Brits and French were doing if one wanted to use a somewhat dyslogistic term. Of course the extension of “colony” to the Crown colonies like Hong Kong may be thought anomalous but as a polity HK was created by Brits even if they were never a majority of the population and plenty of Brits did live there. The British colonies most like the Greek ones of Magna Graecia were the 13 American and later Canadian and Australian provinces or states and New Zealand. Why not, conventionally, Ireland?

  46. virgile says:

    Erdogan has been humiliated by the coup that he couldn’t prevent, his failures in Syria and by having to beg forgiveness from Russia. He is now trying to show off by attacking the weak countries in the region, Iraq, Syria and the Kurds and acting like a bully. He sees himself as the sacred defender of the “oppressed Sunnis”. He is on the way to a dangerous megalomania.
    That can’t last very long. Erdogan will end up very badly as hatred for him and for Turkey has been building up in Arab countries. A violent political earthquake is looming in Turkey.

  47. @Rehmat

    ‘French on its part created Lebanon out Syria for Christians whom Paris thought would loan Litani River to Europe’s unwanted Jews to “make Palestinian desert Green”.
    You have got it totally wrong. The French fought against the British plan at Sykes Picot to make the Litani River the line of demarcation between Lebanon and Palestine ( Israel from the British perspective) so as to give access to the future state of Israel to the Litani water resources and to create a potential for future clashes between Israel and Lebanon.
    The French won the day on this issue and south Lebanon that was inhabited by a Shia majority and a Christian minority became part of the greater Lebanon.
    Shimon Perez commented once about the ‘curse of Sykes Picot’ that put the Shias on the border of Israel. Naturally nobody could foresee the geopolitical outcome that materialised after the Israeli invasion of Lebanon and led to the resistance movement that humiliated the Israeli aggressors.
    As for the Christians of Lebanon, many of their leaders forewarned about the existential threat that Israel would be for the whole Middle East region. I will only name two such leaders out of many: Michel Shiha, a founding father of Lebanon and Antoun Saade the head of the Syrian Nationalist Party.

  48. Rehmat says:

    Yes Sharon – American Jewish writer Roger Tucker told me long ago that only Israeli b****rds believe what the JEW YORK TIMES publishes …..

    In April 2014, the NYT aka Jew York Times admitted that it obeys Israel’s GAG orders concerning publication of Israeli news and editorials.

    In February 2016, the JYT management and Jewish Lobby was shocked to find thousands of copies of NYT ‘special edition’ with anti-Israel articles, editorial and confessions in Manhattan and online version via social media.

    On February 3, 2016, the Jewish Week claimed the antisemite responsible for exposing NYT’s lies about Hamas, Iran, Syria and the rest of Muslim world for the benefit of Israel was New York-based ‘Jewish Voice for Peace’ and not some Jew-hating Muslim group, such as, the Nation of Islam.

    The NYT special edition included such articles as Israel’s fabricated knife attacks, Congress to Debate US Aid to Israel and In the Footsteps of Mandela and King, as well as an editorial, Our New Editorial Policy: Rethinking Israel-Palestine……

  49. Rehmat says:

    “Thank G-d for not making me a KIKE, for not making me a Zionist, and not making me a PARASIT Israeli,” morning prayer in a Canadian Muslim school.

    In May 2015, an Ontario Judge Heather McArthur sentenced professor Benjamin Levin (University of Toronto) to three-year in prison for marketing child pornography.

    Levin, according to Judge McArthur, “urged people he met online to sadistically sexually assault their children in his quest for sexual thrills.”

    Levin, 63, pleaded guilty to possession of child pornography, making child pornography – a charge stemming from an explicit story he wrote – and counseling the indictable offence of sexual assault. He was originally charged with seven child porn-related offences.

    In conversations he had online, Levin, to prove his point, claimed to have sexually abused his own three daughters when they’re child…..

    • Replies: @Avery
    , @Avery
  50. Avery says:

    [‘Pakistan’s Hidden Shame’ film exposes widespread pedophilia]

    {“Pakistan’s Hidden Shame,” a new documentary produced almost entirely by a Pakistani team, exposes the pervasive problem of rape and prostitution of underage boys on the country’s streets. While it has already made waves in Japan and Australia, and this week premiered in the UK, it has yet to be broadcast in Pakistan itself.}

    {The film was broadcast this week in the UK on Channel 4. This coincided with the publication of a report into the widespread child abuse, grooming and trafficking of 1,400 girls by people of Pakistani heritage in the northern English town of Rotherham. Media outlets have drawn a link between the issues in the film and the ongoing debate following the Rotherham scandal, discussing whether this is a specific issue within Pakistani communities.}

    Over to you, Mohammad.

  51. Avery says:

    [First cousin marriages in Pakistani communities leading to ‘appalling’ disabilities among children]

    {Baroness Flather, a cross-bench peer, says it is ‘absolutely appalling’ that first cousin marriages in Pakistani communities are leading to ‘so much disability among children’}
    {Baroness Flather, a former barrister who was born in the Pakistani city of Lahore when it was part of India,….}

    Welcome to Islamistan Pakistan West.
    You are very welcome: anytime, Mohammad.

  52. mcohen says:


    time to post elsewhere.

  53. Alden says:

    The worst thing about the Paki Brit disabilities due to a thousand years of incest is the fact that the Pakistanis in Britian live on welfare for generations and the native British who work and pay taxes pay the enormous medical costs for the disabled Pakistanis. Even worse that the disabled children of several generations of first cousin marriages are the disabled children of brother sister father daughter and uncle niece rape.

    Often 2 full brothers will marry 2 full sister first cousins. Then the children marry each other and have children which causes more and more disabilities with each generation

    All paid for on the national health

    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
  54. Perhaps there is a deal in Mosul. Erdogan stays after Russia and NATO gets bored?

  55. @Alden

    Truly the NHS was a wonderful health system until so many non- British, non-contributors overloaded and wrecked it. Still it is better that what exists in the US today. My mother used to speak of the social cohesion that existed during the war years (WWII) that made life not only bearable but actually enjoyable despite the hardships. That social cohesion no longer exists nor has it for a long time now, nor will it ever again.

    There’s a lesson there but one that is ignored everywhere. Iraq had some sort of social cohesion under Saddam, not quite the same of course but given the diversity of tribal elements, it worked. Just look at the entire region in chaos now and mostly at the expense of US taxpayers. I think of the hospitals, schools, universities and various other infrastructure projects like roads, railways and bridges that could have been built in the US for that kind of money.

    Those responsible should be tarred and feathered prior to being hung, drawn and quartered.

  56. Cato says:

    The Turks will not “get a good beating” from the Iraqis. Remember, the Iraqi army melted before the US invasion, and then –probably to demonstrate at least the virtue of consistency– melted again before ISIS. No one is afraid of them, least of all Erdogan.

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