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Newt Gingrich, Credit: Gage Skidmore. CC BY-SA 2.0.
Newt Gingrich, Credit: Gage Skidmore. CC BY-SA 2.0.

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“Iran must be free. The dictatorship must be destroyed. Containment is appeasement and appeasement is surrender.”

Thus does our Churchill, Newt Gingrich, dismiss, in dealing with Iran, the policy of containment crafted by George Kennan and pursued by nine U.S. presidents to bloodless victory in the Cold War.

Why is containment surrender? “Because freedom is threatened everywhere so long as this dictatorship stays in power,” says Gingrich.

But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?

Fortunately, Gingrich has found a leader to bring down the Iranian regime and ensure the freedom of mankind. “In our country that was George Washington and … the Marquis de Lafayette. In Italy it was Garibaldi,” says Gingrich.

Whom has he found to rival Washington and Garibaldi? Says Gingrich, “Maryam Rajavi.”

Who is she? The leader of the National Council of Resistance of Iran, or Mujahedeen-e-Khalq, which opposed the Shah, broke with the old Ayatollah, collaborated with Saddam Hussein, and, until 2012, was designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. Department of State.

At the NCRI conference in Paris in July where Gingrich spoke, and the speaking fees were reportedly excellent, John Bolton and Rudy Giuliani were also on hand.

Calling Iran’s twice-elected President Hassan Rouhani, “a violent, vicious murderer,” Giuliani said, “the time has come for regime change.”

Bolton followed suit. “Tehran is not merely a nuclear weapons threat, it is not merely a terrorist threat, it is a conventional threat to everybody in the region,” he said. Hence, “the declared policy of the United States of America should be the overthrow of the mullahs’ regime in Tehran.”

We will all celebrate in Tehran in 2019, Bolton assured the NCRI faithful.

Good luck. Yet, as The New York Times said yesterday, all this talk, echoed all over this capital, is driving us straight toward war. “A drumbeat of provocative words, outright threats and actions — from President Trump and some of his top aides as well as Sunni Arab leaders and American activists — is raising tensions that could lead to armed conflict with Iran.”

Is this what America wants or needs — a new Mideast war against a country three times the size of Iraq?

After Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen, would America and the world be well-served by a war with Iran that could explode into a Sunni-Shiite religious war across the Middle East?

Bolton calls Iran “a nuclear weapons threat.”

But in 2007, all 17 U.S. intelligence agencies declared with high confidence Iran had no nuclear weapons program. They stated this again in 2011. Under the nuclear deal, Iran exported almost all of its uranium, stopped enriching to 20 percent, shut down thousands of centrifuges, poured concrete into the core of its heavy water reactor, and allows U.N. inspectors to crawl all over every facility.

Is Iran, despite all this, operating a secret nuclear weapons program? Or is this War Party propaganda meant to drag us into another Mideast war?

To ascertain the truth, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee should call the heads of the CIA and DIA, and the Director of National Intelligence, to testify in open session.

We are told we are menaced also by a Shiite Crescent rising and stretching from Beirut to Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran.

And who created this Shiite Crescent?

It was George W. Bush who ordered the Sunni regime of Saddam overthrown, delivering Iraq to its Shiite majority. It was Israel whose invasion and occupation of Lebanon from 1982 to 2000 gave birth to the Shiite resistance now known as Hezbollah.

As for Bashar Assad in Syria, his father sent troops to fight alongside Americans in the Gulf War.

ORDER IT NOW

The Ayatollah’s regime, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps and the Basij militia are deeply hostile to this country. But Iran does not want war with the United States — for the best of reasons. Iran would be smashed like Iraq, and its inevitable rise, as the largest and most advanced country on the Persian Gulf, would be aborted.

Moreover, we have interests in common: Peace in the Gulf, from which Iran’s oil flows and without which Iran cannot grow, as Rouhani intends, by deepening Iran’s ties to Europe and the advanced world.

And we have enemies in common: ISIS, al-Qaida and all the Sunni terrorists whose wildest dream is to see their American enemies fight their Shiite enemies.

Who else wants a U.S. war with Iran, besides ISIS?

Unfortunately, their number is legion: Saudis, Israelis, neocons and their think tanks, websites and magazines, hawks in both parties on Capitol Hill, democracy crusaders, and many in the Pentagon who want to deliver payback for what the Iranian-backed Shiite militias did to us in Iraq.

President Trump is key. If he does the War Party’s bidding, that will be his legacy, as the Iraq War is the legacy of George W. Bush.

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of a new book, “Nixon’s White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever.”

Copyright 2017 Creators.com.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Iran, Middle East, Neocons 
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  1. Men like Bolton and Gingrich should be banished from the world stage. Their policies have not only failed, but have caused widespread suffering, exile, death and annihilation. Why aren’t these armchair invaders held accountable for their ignoble deeds? They should be behind bars, not on TV.

    But these globetrotting neocons are rewarded instead with high visibility and premier status. They are kept aloft by a co-conspiring news media that similarly pimps for Zio-American hegemony.

    If ‘hate speech’ and ‘Holocaust Denial’ are serious crimes, why not include ‘warmongering’? Its list of innocent victims is far, far greater.

    Politicians and public figures who advocate for preemptive wars are pleading, in effect, for mass murder. Their mindset presents a clear and present danger to world order and the rule of law. Warmongering undermines human civilization. We must take them down before they take us down.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Mark,

    Excellent suggestions! I was shocked to read that Maryam Rajavi is being touted as anybody that should be anywhere close to power in Iran. The MEK are hated by practically everyone in Iran. It seems the war mongers are not just evil, they seem to be completely mad as well.

    I'm very glad Russia is on the rise and becoming more influential with its alliances in the ME. I think there is no hope from our side to prevent the war against Iran - the entire Neo-con machine wants to plunge into another disaster. But the Russians showed that, if they want, they can be the cog that prevents regime change in that region.

    Here's the thing:
    1) There is no regime change without US boots on the ground (the Arabs are in no shape to do it and Pakistan will not either).
    2) The US would have to move a huge field army into the area - the only viable places are Iraq (not happening - unless we are talking about stable Kurdish controlled area), Kuwait (yeah - let's put them all in one small place), Afghanistan (not happening), Turkey (not happening) and maybe Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
    3) This would telegraph the entire intention and Russia could counter as they did in Syria with AA and air-superiority fighters on Iranian soil.

    None of this seems likely - they most they can do is cowardly launch a bunch of cruise missiles here and there and make more of a mess of things.

    Peace.
    , @Joe Wong
    Bolton and Gingrich do not exit in vacuum, they are the finest product of the American culture which the USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if Iran can destroy the credibility of American power and American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    Millions upon millions of Americans have been volunteering to be the tool of that American power unconditionally, it seems you do not understand the American.

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  2. Gingrich, Bolton, Giuliani, why is it these names sound so familiar to me? Great American patriots? I think not.

    When will people have had enough of them to the point that they boycott totally any and all media that give them any coverage? When will people have had enough of them that they make the effort to contact the advertisers and sponsors of said media to announce their participation in a boycott of their offerings? It can’t come soon enough.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I wouldn't deny you the pleasures of your second paragraph fantasy but when you are wholly back on earth would you care to explain the joining of Gingrich, Bolton and Giuiiani in one anathema? (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).
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  3. Can Ron Unz find someone to give a satisfactory explanation of US madness, with a focus, because a study of US madness could otherwise be enormously diffuse, on attitudes to and actual and proposed policies on Iran?

    If there were no other problems in the world to concern conscientious Americans then I can understand its old missionary spirit focusing on what might be done for Iranians, but….???

    Americans who might have thought in 1990 that at last their country might be governed so that, the Cold War ended, the huge gains from free trade and barely imagineable technological innovation (not least in medicine) would steadily lead to an improvement in the quality of life and healthy longevity for the vast majority – without their having to make vast unwanted adjustments like having fewer children or none till their late 30s – those Americans have been betrayed by the political class and its donor-owners.

    A convincing explanation might cover the psychological ground that I see as needed to explain a somewhat less damaging irrationality (as it seems to me) in Australian politics. Here it is perfectly obvious that nothing Australia can do or say with respect to emissions of carbon dioxide can have the slightest effect on the country’s future wellbeing in terms of future rainfall, temperatures, sea levels or extreme weather events. Australia has huge reserves of high quality and also brown coal but only emits 1.4 per cent of the world’s CO2. If it is the big problem it is China, the US and India which could perhaps fix it. Australia rationally should just make itself rich enough to adapt. But its governments, nationally and in every state have hugely expensive mandated renewables targets, efectually subsidies for wind and solar power, and two states have already suffered major peak load outages as a result. (Australia could still have just about the cheapest electricity in the world for producing aluminium but hands the business to China along with exports of coal for Chinese piwer plants).

    In the last few weeks Elon Musk has offered to build a giant lithium battery (the world’s biggest) for South Australia whose left and Green politicians – of all parties – have overcommitted it to windpower with dire results. Maybe it is the way to go if we are content for China to burn our coal and make our aluminium. Will there be enough lithium or substitute? My point of course in the context I began with is what explains or contols the thought processes of non expert politicians caught up in apparent irrationality. (From an old friend, now dead, I hear the advice to look fkr substitutes for religion).

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    • Replies: @Joe Wong
    Why can't Elon Musk propose a turnkey job that he will raise fund and build the lithium battery project then collect his investment thru user fee? This way his project will not interfere Australian commitment on windpower generation. In addition why China is at fault by creating jobs and investing in Australia?
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  4. After Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen, would America and the world be well-served by a war with Iran that could explode into a Sunni-Shiite religious war across the Middle East?

    It’s not about the interests of America. Those are secondary to the interests of Zionist-globalists who see Iran as rival of Israel. The GLOB has zero concern about most Americans.
    Even without Iran, the GLOB logic is the same. Whatever serves the narrow interests and agenda of the GLOB is favored over the interests of rest of America. Besides, Diversity destroyed any sense of American Unity. What is ‘American interest’ when there are so many kinds of Americans? In this confusing hodge-podge, the ONLY interest that matters is that of the rich, powerful, and connected. And Zionists are tops.

    When US was mostly white, it would have been difficult for Zionists to confuse masses of gentile whites that a War for Israel would be good for the nation.
    But now, even if white gentile America opposes it, the GLOB can say, “There is more to America than White America.” Of course, other gentile groups may be even less supportive of the War, but they are so divided that they never come together in unison in opposition to the Glob.
    Also, these non-whites dare not oppose globalism since it allowed them into the US.

    Non-whites get bribed with immigration(as shush money) by globalists, and the globalists get to do whatever they want. Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?
     
    Now? I think you mean "still."
    , @ThreeCranes
    "Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of."

    That's it in a nutshell.

    This is why the other day I was talking about Carl Jung's vision of individual human consciousness as analogous to the mushroom in its relation to the mycelium. Either we are related to each other as instances of a collective consciousness and collective unconscious or we are not.

    The collective unconscious is a pool of racial memories dating back to our preverbal world.

    The collective consciousness is made up of the content of all that we can verbalize, write and read about; our history, founder's myths, science, songs etc.

    We are either an organic whole or we are just a conglomerate.

    In Geology, a conglomerate is composed of dissimilar elements--pebbles--brought together by accident and bound together by the crushing pressure of gravity. They clump but don't metamorphose and fuse into a unified substance.

    The first view is Biologic, the second Mechanistic.

    The biologic view was most persuasively put forth by--I hate to say it--Adolf Hitler. One blood, One Folk, One Nation. The Nation is the concrete expression of a people's Geist (as Hegel put it) or Spirit. Spirit (Intelligence, Will, Emotion, Appetite) and Matter interact and mutually define each other in a characteristic way that is unique to a particular breeding population. It is its Culture, its Civilization.

    The Mechanistic view is congenial to a Ruling Class that doesn't identify with its Subjects. All the trials and tribulations of the lower classes can be attributed to the lawful workings of an Impersonal Machine, the Free Market, acting on isolated Atoms each of which strives to maximize its own gain.

    So, the Left is technically correct in assigning the label of Nazi to people who push the biologic view of the Nation, but in the process unwittingly support the 1%.

    The upshot is, if you care for your Nation--or even believe that such a thing exists--be prepared to be called a Nazi.
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  5. I’m always wondering that nuts such as Gingrich, Bolton, Juliani and many other Ziocon war hawks have still such an influence on the US mainstream media. That these mentioned are supporting the terror organization Mujahedeen-e-Khalq doesn’t surprise me because they are political terrorists themselves. To start a war with Iran is the craziest thing the US could do. The US Empire can lock back of successfully messing up the whole Middle East. Why not continuing on this path and taking on Iran? The only nation that will profit from such a disaster will be Israel and Saudi Arabia. Why should the US do their bidding? If these terrorist supporting states want to overthrow Iran, they should do it themselves. Why should Americans sacrifice themselves for these thugs in Tel Aviv and Riadah? One can hope that President Trump is all there and doesn’t listen to these war-mongers.

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    • Replies: @Gg Mo
    Wonder no more , and peruse the Smith Mundt Modernization Act that was used to speed the take-over by the Deep-state Collectivist Neo-con/Neo0-liberal parasites of as much Media as possible.
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  6. It is not in the least bit hyperbolic to say that war with Iran would be the literal end of America. Have Gingrich and Bolton flipped their collective lids?

    Note to President Trump: $200/bbl oil, a Middle East dissolved into irreversible chaos, a resurgent ISIS, and an inevitable confrontation with Russia are not “winning.”

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Only to offer a medium sized quibble....

    $200 a barrel oil would be bad for most people in the world but not necessarily for the US since fracking has made a net hydrocarbon exporter. Which American statesman is goung to be inhibited by thinking which proceeds much beyond that?
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  7. LauraMR says:

    I seem to recall that WarIsBoring calculated we are currently involved in some 200 wars.

    Presumably, that’s not enough for some. The policy of “forever war” appears to be turning into a policy of “forever everywhere war”.

    There will be hell to pay for this, eventually.

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  8. 1. But in 2007, all 17 U.S. intelligence agencies declared with high confidence Iran had no nuclear weapons program.

    14 more than said Russia had hacked the US election but guess which assessment has been shouted more loudly.

    2. Imagine if senior Iranian political figures had attended a conference somewhere and made the corresponding threats to the USA. Trump would have sent some Tomahawks and the Congress/Senate and NYT/WAPO would have been in a lather,

    What a truly F…ked up world.

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  9. Who wants to know how and why the USA behaves towards Iran as it does should read
    Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, William Blum, et.al., ‘Superpower principles, U.S. Terrorism against Cuba’, 2005, Monroe
    Just replace ‘Cuba’ by ‘Iran’, and ‘socialism’ by ‘Islam’.

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    • Replies: @John Brown
    I doubt one can know "how and why the USA behaves towards Iran" by reading Chomsky.
    Chomsky might be a genius but I doubt he is intellectually honest. He doesn't believe that the lobby exist. Even when brilliant scholars (John J. Mearsheimer, Stephen M. Walt) proved it beyond doubt, he just dismissed it. Of course one doesn't need to have a PhD to understand who controls The USA foreign policy. I'd suggest that you can understand more "how and why the USA behaves towards Iran" reading some posts here than reading the entire 130 books Chomsky wrote.
    Or if you want can you can just read one article by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts. This one for example.
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/paul-craig-roberts/trump-not-charge/

    Chomsky is a fraud. If you want someone serious and anti war ,100% anti war, read Ron Paul.
    Chomsky also believes the crap that the President of Syria is the new Hitler. I am sure , being a brilliant man, he can find brilliant arguments to justify why Assad must be destroyed, but he will be lying.

    , @annamaria
    Middle Eastern wars and Europe.
    Sweden in crisis: http://contraryintexas.blogspot.com/2017/07/refugee-crisis-in-sweden.html
    Carl Bildt, the same weasel that has arranged the fraudulent persecution of Assange, is stepping forth to defend the real rapists terrorizing Sweden; he peddles the immigration under a pretext of "aging population:" http://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/carl-bildt/sweden-crisis
    Bildt, this miserable impotent-of-a-man, tries strenuously to be totally servile to his ZUSA masters by writing this presstituting stuff: "And now the number of immigrants is increasing again, reflecting chronic turmoil in the Middle East and elsewhere, as well as Europe’s increasingly turbulent and dangerous neighbourhood, largely owing to Russian revisionism and military expansion."
    Thence the US/Lobby-initiated mass slaughter the Middle East is presented by Bildt as an unexplainable "turmoil," whereas the immigration to Europe is explained as a result of the alleged Russian "military expansion;" never mind that Russians do their "expansion" on their own territory in response to a very real geographic/material expansion of NATO up to the Russian borders.
    Here is the real situation in Sweden: http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265873/refugee-rape-gangs-sweden-dawn-perlmutter
    https://www.rt.com/news/375364-sweden-police-appeal-violence-malmo/
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  10. Newt Gingrish, John Bolton, Rudy Giuliani, Mccain, Lindsay Graham. The prime gentile whores to Khazarian tyranny. Traitors all.

    Iran has invaded no country in the last 300 years. It is NO THREAT to us AT ALL but it has been a target of western political interference and military violence for the last century at least.

    It is a threat only to the ambitions of those who have occupied our governments and who pursue their globalist aims via their (our) golem, Israel. Iran is not under Khazar control. It supports and defends Lebanon, Syria and other targets of murderous Israeli aggression, i.e. it defends itself as every country has a right to do.

    If the traitor class and their sponsors (that govern us) succeed in sending the moronic US military off to die for their supremacist cause, here’s hoping we lose …. again.

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  11. El Dato says:

    It’s 14 years and 4 “administrations” by clown presidents later and here we go. Again. Still.

    And we know exactly what this is about.

    Neocon creeps doing Israel’s and the House of Saud’s bidding at anyone else’s cost. Anyone else’s.

    So…

    Blood on their hands? Lots. And possibly a few high-rise buildings, too.

    Cavorting with and with high likelihood taking bribes from the dancing enemy? Hell yes.

    So, treason? Entire folders.

    And will anything be done about that?

    Here is also a slight résumé on the MEK by Justin Raimondo from 2003:

    Otherwise known as the Peoples Mujahideen, or the Iranian National Liberation Army (INLA), the MEK started out as a “left” faction of the Iranian Revolution that overthrew the Shah and installed the Ayatollah Khomeini as the supreme power in Tehran. The U.S., as the Shah’s sponsor and chief ally, became the principal target of MEK terrorism. (…)

    The MEK also participated in the 1979 takeover of the U.S. Embassy in Tehran. After the fall of the Shah, the MEK fell out with the orthodox Shia clergy, and was attacked by the Revolutionary Guards. They began to launch terrorist attacks against the Iranian government, in which civilians were targeted. During the Iran-Iraq war, they made an alliance with Saddam Hussein, who funded them and gave them sanctuary on Iraqi territory, a tactic that succeeded in completely isolating them from the Iranian people.

    Their pact with Saddam also made them plenty of enemies inside Iraq. The MEK were used to put down the Kurdish rebellions in the north, and they were also sent to help crush the 1991 Shi’ite uprising in the south – where they faced what is today the SCIRI on the battlefield, and drove them over the border into Iran. After Saddam’s fall, the SCIRI returned, with Ayatollah al-Hakim at their head. But his moment in the sun didn’t last too long….

    When the U.S. invaded Iraq, there was a big debate within the administration over what to do about the MEK. The neoconservatives in the Pentagon and around Douglas Feith and the Office of Special Plans want to use the Marxist terrorists as a club to bash Iran in the next phase of their war to “democratize” the Middle East. Leading neocons such as Daniel Pipes and Arnold Beichman tout the MEK as a U.S. ally, the latter hailing it as “a legitimate force for democracy and regime change in the Middle East.” That’s an odd way to characterize a totalitarian cult whose commitment to “democracy” consists of having unilaterally proclaimed Maryam Rajavi – wife of the group’s military leader, Masoud Rajavi – “President Elect”of Iran.

    In the meantime, there are strong suspicions that the MEK “sourced” the patently ridiculous and Tom-Clancy-esque 2004 “smoking laptop” meant to make big revelations regarding an Iranian nuclear military program. It was conveniently given to Israel. Forged. Oh surprise.

    These guys really had the hots for the “these idiots will believe/use anything” approach after Powell’s speech from an alternate reality at the UN.

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  12. MEexpert says:

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?

    Iran has always been in our gunsight. The simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were intended to be carried into Iran. It was to be a four prong attack. One from Afghanistan, the second from Iraq, the third from Turkey, and the fourth from Turkmenistan. Unfortunately for the US, Turkey and Turkmenistan refused to allow their bases to be used to launch attacks on Iran. Of course, we know what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?

    Because our masters, Israel and Saudi Arabia say so. The Iranian regime threatens Israeli hegemony and the backers of Israel in the US cannot have that. Therefore, the regime must be destroyed.

    Whom has he found to rival Washington and Garibaldi? Says Gingrich, “Maryam Rajavi.”

    Maryam Rajavi is the ex-wife of the MEK leader Massoud Rajavi and a terrorist by all standards.

    Bolton calls Iran “a nuclear weapons threat.”

    Of course he does. He gets paid to say that. Bolton is not alone. Ask McCain, Graham, Cotton, Schumer and 99.9 percent of the “Israel first” congress, the Fox News, the NYT, Washington Post and the rest of the MSM. They all say that, the 2007 NIE be damned.

    We are told we are menaced also by a Shiite Crescent rising and stretching from Beirut to Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran.

    No one has ever explained why is the shiite crescent a menace to the US. All four countries have one thing in common and that is the hostility of Israel. They are a threat to Israel’s power in the Middle East. Not one of those countries has ever threatened the US.

    Unfortunately, their number is legion: Saudis, Israelis, neocons and their think tanks, websites and magazines, hawks in both parties on Capitol Hill, democracy crusaders, and many in the Pentagon who want to deliver payback for what the Iranian-backed Shiite militias did to us in Iraq.

    This is the key to the problem. Saudi/Israel/neocon alliance that wants to serve only Israel. The mess we have created in the Middle East was at the behest of Israel. It is like a child who is afraid of monsters. We fight the monsters and give more toys to the child to make him happy. Similarly, We go to wars because Israel feels threatened and we bomb those countries and give more weapons to Israel to make her happy.

    What we need is a regime change in Israel and an ultimatum to the new regime to make peace with its neighbors or fight its own battles.

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    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
    "What we need is a regime change in Israel...."

    Yes, the whole place from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River needs to be put back in Palestinian hands.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    "Becsuse our Israeli and Saudi masters say so" needs a bit more explanation and justification than just a purported expert's ipse dixit. Of course well directed money talks generally more effectively than anything else. Israel Firsters' money, like the arms industey's, the pharmaceutical industry's, Disney's etc is readily traceable in politicians'behaviour but how do you make - except in imagination or assumption - the same connection for Saudi influence?
    , @jilles dykstra
    Tzarist Russia and GB divided Iran between them in 1911, the first time Iran's democracy was overturned.
    In 1953 it was the USA, with British support, prime minister Mossadeq had nationalised Iranian oil.
    USA puppet shah began to rule.
    In 1979 Islam liberated Iran.
    Of course Iran is in the USA's sights, as any country not dancing to the USA tune.
    But maybe Trump sees that making others dance to USA tunes has become too costly.
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  13. “Thus does our Churchill, Newt Gingrich, dismiss, in dealing with Iran, the policy of containment crafted by George Kennan and pursued by nine U.S. presidents to bloodless victory in the Cold War.”
    So, considering trends when USA kicks the bucket as a global power will it be Russian and Chinese victory or reasons will be due to own US elites caused hubris?
    Soviet Union demise was of own making. USA has nothing to do with that.

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  14. Renoman says:

    Is there anyone who isn’t in America’s gun sites?
    It isn’t the Shiites that are the problem, it’s the Sunnis, leave Iran alone they’re not bothering anyone, as to the nuclear thing who wouldn’t want the bomb, it’s the only thing that will keep America on it’s leash. This is just a lot of the usual propaganda from the usual shitty little country, time to stop listening to those clowns, they are wrecking the World.

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  15. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    Will we EVER be rid of these loathsome POS like Bolton and the slimy toad Gingrich?

    They’re cheerleading for another ‘War for Israel,’ fought by and paid for with American blood and treasure.

    When these war criminals get their wish and oil skyrockets to $500 a barrel and gasoline to $10 a gallon, Americans will be paying for that too, but not Israel.

    Israel, not America, gets first dibs on our Strategic Petroleum Reserve resting in Louisiana salt mines. And they’ll be able to use that oil and NG they’re stealing from the stolen Golan Heights and the offshore Levant oil field, stealing oil from Palestine, Egypt and Lebanon.

    I say Enough is Enough. If Israel wants to attack Iran, let Israel do it WITHOUT American help. That way, their won’t be another ME war, since Israel knows it would get its ass kicked by Iran and forced to use nukes to avoid defeat and that will finally wake up the world to the insane and murderous Apartheid Israel regime.

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  16. More wars mean more refugees, and more refugees mean more diseases.

    https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/10676/germany-migrants-infectious

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  17. mp says:

    Sounds like Sheldon Adelson’s whoopee cushion just went off. Didn’t get all those millions for nothing , eh Newt?

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    • Agree: jacques sheete, Rurik
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  18. Randal says:

    But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?

    It’s easy to understand the likes of Gingrich, Bolton and all the rest of the bipartisan US foreign policy idiocracy that has caused so much global misery in the past few decades, when they advocate whatever their latest aggressive interventionism might be in these kinds of superficially literally stupid terms. You just have to replace what they dishonestly claim is their motivating factor with what it actually is.

    So in the sentence above, replace “our freedom” with “Israeli power/Saudi oil money/my pork/my lobbyist contributions”, according to which particular dual loyalty treasonous liar you are referring to, and the question usually answers itself.

    It has long been obvious that out of the three main “sides” in the ME – Israeli colonial aggressors, Arab sunni jihadists, and Iran – the Iranian side is by far the least obnoxious. The long, determined US elite insistence on black actually being white on this topic is a true measure of just how grossly misruled the US has become.

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  19. @NoseytheDuke
    Gingrich, Bolton, Giuliani, why is it these names sound so familiar to me? Great American patriots? I think not.

    When will people have had enough of them to the point that they boycott totally any and all media that give them any coverage? When will people have had enough of them that they make the effort to contact the advertisers and sponsors of said media to announce their participation in a boycott of their offerings? It can't come soon enough.

    I wouldn’t deny you the pleasures of your second paragraph fantasy but when you are wholly back on earth would you care to explain the joining of Gingrich, Bolton and Giuiiani in one anathema? (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).

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    • Troll: L.K
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory

    (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).
     
    Being an authoritarian, war mongering NeoCon would make anyone a bad guy.
    , @Gg Mo
    Globalist Freaks stick together. Remember Cintra, the Spanish consortium to have Toll-ways in the US , by owning and constructing the Trans-Texas Corridor (Hwy 121) ? So much more joins these pigs-in-a-pen-of-their-own-greed.
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  20. @Intelligent Dasein
    It is not in the least bit hyperbolic to say that war with Iran would be the literal end of America. Have Gingrich and Bolton flipped their collective lids?

    Note to President Trump: $200/bbl oil, a Middle East dissolved into irreversible chaos, a resurgent ISIS, and an inevitable confrontation with Russia are not "winning."

    Only to offer a medium sized quibble….

    $200 a barrel oil would be bad for most people in the world but not necessarily for the US since fracking has made a net hydrocarbon exporter. Which American statesman is goung to be inhibited by thinking which proceeds much beyond that?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory
    $200/barrel oil would do much harm to most Americans.
    , @TomSchmidt
    You're wrong about that. US production IS up, about 10MM BBL per day. US Consumption is well above that level, so we would need to spend, um, 8MM times $150 extra per day for oil. That's 1.2Bln extra in imports per day, about a $500Bln annual deficit in spending.

    Of course, the frackers would GET an additional 1.5 billion per day while people not connected to oil would lose out, big time. I would guess that that is the point.

    , @pogohere
    Permian Reserves May Be Much Smaller Than You Think

    Posted in The Petroleum Truth Report on July 18, 2017

    We are entering a new age of American energy dominance according to Energy Secretary Rick Perry. President Trump reflected that view in comments he made last week that “…we’ve got underneath us more oil than anybody, and nobody knew it until five years ago.”

    Trump was referring to tight oil production and today, that means the Permian basin.

    Global energy dominance by the United States is somewhere between aspirational and absurd.

    So far in 2017, the U.S. has imported more than 9 million barrels of crude oil per day, and net imports have averaged more than 7.3 million barrels per day. How exactly can the world’s biggest importer of oil become the supplier upon which other countries depend?

    The recently released BP Statistical Review Of World Energy 2017 places the United States 10th in the global ranking of oil reserve holders between Libya and Nigeria (Figure 1). That’s not bad but it hardly puts the U.S. in the same league as energy-dominant countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Iran, Iraq and Russia that have on average 4 times more proved reserves than the U.S. [emphasis added]

    http://www.artberman.com/permian-reserves-may-much-smaller-think/
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  21. @Priss Factor
    After Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen, would America and the world be well-served by a war with Iran that could explode into a Sunni-Shiite religious war across the Middle East?

    It's not about the interests of America. Those are secondary to the interests of Zionist-globalists who see Iran as rival of Israel. The GLOB has zero concern about most Americans.
    Even without Iran, the GLOB logic is the same. Whatever serves the narrow interests and agenda of the GLOB is favored over the interests of rest of America. Besides, Diversity destroyed any sense of American Unity. What is 'American interest' when there are so many kinds of Americans? In this confusing hodge-podge, the ONLY interest that matters is that of the rich, powerful, and connected. And Zionists are tops.

    When US was mostly white, it would have been difficult for Zionists to confuse masses of gentile whites that a War for Israel would be good for the nation.
    But now, even if white gentile America opposes it, the GLOB can say, "There is more to America than White America." Of course, other gentile groups may be even less supportive of the War, but they are so divided that they never come together in unison in opposition to the Glob.
    Also, these non-whites dare not oppose globalism since it allowed them into the US.

    Non-whites get bribed with immigration(as shush money) by globalists, and the globalists get to do whatever they want. Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of.

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?

    Now? I think you mean “still.”

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  22. More wars mean more refugees…

    And more of both mean more government power.

    Congress, and the likes of the above named scumbags, are described herein.:

    The boasted English Parliament of Lords and commoners possessed at no time any vitality which weakened or threatened to weaken the State ideal. Its original purpose was merely to facilitate the raising of the King’s revenues. The nobles responded better when they seemed to be giving their consent. Their share in actual government was subjective, but the existence of Parliament served to appease any restiveness at the autocracy of the King. The significant classes could scarcely rebel when they had the privilege of giving consent to the King’s measures. There was always outlet for the rebellious spirit of a powerful lord in private revolt against the King.

    -Randolph Bourne, The State, From Untimely Papers (1919).

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  23. Remember the names of Lt. Col. Louis Lee Hawkins, Col. Paul Shaffer , Lt. Col. Jack Turner, William Cottrell, Donald Smith, and Robert Krongard . Americans murdered by the cult known as People’s Mujahedin of Iran or MEK.

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  24. @Wizard of Oz
    Only to offer a medium sized quibble....

    $200 a barrel oil would be bad for most people in the world but not necessarily for the US since fracking has made a net hydrocarbon exporter. Which American statesman is goung to be inhibited by thinking which proceeds much beyond that?

    $200/barrel oil would do much harm to most Americans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Many if it happened quickly I concede. But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.

    Of course it might make the leaders of Russia and Venezuela very happy too.

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  25. @Wizard of Oz
    I wouldn't deny you the pleasures of your second paragraph fantasy but when you are wholly back on earth would you care to explain the joining of Gingrich, Bolton and Giuiiani in one anathema? (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).

    (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).

    Being an authoritarian, war mongering NeoCon would make anyone a bad guy.

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  26. @MEexpert

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?
     
    Iran has always been in our gunsight. The simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were intended to be carried into Iran. It was to be a four prong attack. One from Afghanistan, the second from Iraq, the third from Turkey, and the fourth from Turkmenistan. Unfortunately for the US, Turkey and Turkmenistan refused to allow their bases to be used to launch attacks on Iran. Of course, we know what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?
     
    Because our masters, Israel and Saudi Arabia say so. The Iranian regime threatens Israeli hegemony and the backers of Israel in the US cannot have that. Therefore, the regime must be destroyed.

    Whom has he found to rival Washington and Garibaldi? Says Gingrich, “Maryam Rajavi.”
     
    Maryam Rajavi is the ex-wife of the MEK leader Massoud Rajavi and a terrorist by all standards.

    Bolton calls Iran “a nuclear weapons threat.”
     
    Of course he does. He gets paid to say that. Bolton is not alone. Ask McCain, Graham, Cotton, Schumer and 99.9 percent of the "Israel first" congress, the Fox News, the NYT, Washington Post and the rest of the MSM. They all say that, the 2007 NIE be damned.

    We are told we are menaced also by a Shiite Crescent rising and stretching from Beirut to Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran.
     
    No one has ever explained why is the shiite crescent a menace to the US. All four countries have one thing in common and that is the hostility of Israel. They are a threat to Israel's power in the Middle East. Not one of those countries has ever threatened the US.

    Unfortunately, their number is legion: Saudis, Israelis, neocons and their think tanks, websites and magazines, hawks in both parties on Capitol Hill, democracy crusaders, and many in the Pentagon who want to deliver payback for what the Iranian-backed Shiite militias did to us in Iraq.
     
    This is the key to the problem. Saudi/Israel/neocon alliance that wants to serve only Israel. The mess we have created in the Middle East was at the behest of Israel. It is like a child who is afraid of monsters. We fight the monsters and give more toys to the child to make him happy. Similarly, We go to wars because Israel feels threatened and we bomb those countries and give more weapons to Israel to make her happy.

    What we need is a regime change in Israel and an ultimatum to the new regime to make peace with its neighbors or fight its own battles.

    “What we need is a regime change in Israel….”

    Yes, the whole place from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River needs to be put back in Palestinian hands.

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    • Replies: @Moi
    I could not agree more!!!
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  27. WJ says:

    Buchanan is great but we have been seeing this “war with Iran is imminent” line since at least 2005. A conventional war with Iran would be a massive undertaking requiring troops on the ground to absolutely ensure that any nuke program is eradicated and buckets and buckets of blood. We aren’t going to do that. Even with a propaganda campaign similar to the Iraq war, this bird won’t fly with many of even the dumbest Americans for long. Not going to happen.

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    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Buchanan is great but we have been seeing this “war with Iran is imminent” line since at least 2005.
     
    Check this.:

    Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979.
    By Scott Peterson, Staff writer NOVEMBER 8, 2011

    Breathless warnings that the Islamic Republic will soon be at the brink of nuclear capability have been made for decades. Here is a chronicle of predictions.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1108/Imminent-Iran-nuclear-threat-A-timeline-of-warnings-since-1979/Israel-s-one-year-timeframe-disproved-2010-11
     
    Note.:

    “The U.S. launched a nuclear cooperation program with Iran in 1957 -- back when the Shah ruled Iran and the two countries were still friends -- and by the mid-70s Iran began developing its nuclear power program. But the U.S. pulled its support when the Shah was overthrown during the Islamic Revolution in 1979.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/world/meast/iran-nuclear-talks-11-things/

     

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  28. @MEexpert

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?
     
    Iran has always been in our gunsight. The simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were intended to be carried into Iran. It was to be a four prong attack. One from Afghanistan, the second from Iraq, the third from Turkey, and the fourth from Turkmenistan. Unfortunately for the US, Turkey and Turkmenistan refused to allow their bases to be used to launch attacks on Iran. Of course, we know what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?
     
    Because our masters, Israel and Saudi Arabia say so. The Iranian regime threatens Israeli hegemony and the backers of Israel in the US cannot have that. Therefore, the regime must be destroyed.

    Whom has he found to rival Washington and Garibaldi? Says Gingrich, “Maryam Rajavi.”
     
    Maryam Rajavi is the ex-wife of the MEK leader Massoud Rajavi and a terrorist by all standards.

    Bolton calls Iran “a nuclear weapons threat.”
     
    Of course he does. He gets paid to say that. Bolton is not alone. Ask McCain, Graham, Cotton, Schumer and 99.9 percent of the "Israel first" congress, the Fox News, the NYT, Washington Post and the rest of the MSM. They all say that, the 2007 NIE be damned.

    We are told we are menaced also by a Shiite Crescent rising and stretching from Beirut to Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran.
     
    No one has ever explained why is the shiite crescent a menace to the US. All four countries have one thing in common and that is the hostility of Israel. They are a threat to Israel's power in the Middle East. Not one of those countries has ever threatened the US.

    Unfortunately, their number is legion: Saudis, Israelis, neocons and their think tanks, websites and magazines, hawks in both parties on Capitol Hill, democracy crusaders, and many in the Pentagon who want to deliver payback for what the Iranian-backed Shiite militias did to us in Iraq.
     
    This is the key to the problem. Saudi/Israel/neocon alliance that wants to serve only Israel. The mess we have created in the Middle East was at the behest of Israel. It is like a child who is afraid of monsters. We fight the monsters and give more toys to the child to make him happy. Similarly, We go to wars because Israel feels threatened and we bomb those countries and give more weapons to Israel to make her happy.

    What we need is a regime change in Israel and an ultimatum to the new regime to make peace with its neighbors or fight its own battles.

    “Becsuse our Israeli and Saudi masters say so” needs a bit more explanation and justification than just a purported expert’s ipse dixit. Of course well directed money talks generally more effectively than anything else. Israel Firsters’ money, like the arms industey’s, the pharmaceutical industry’s, Disney’s etc is readily traceable in politicians’behaviour but how do you make – except in imagination or assumption – the same connection for Saudi influence?

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    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Israel Firsters’ money, like the arms industey’s, the pharmaceutical industry’s, Disney’s etc is readily traceable in politicians’behaviour but how do you make – except in imagination or assumption – the same connection for Saudi influence?
     
    Saudi Arabia has learned well from its Zionist counterpart to influence the US law makers. She may not have an AIPAC version of a lobby to further its cause but Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars in lobbying efforts to buy influence on Capitol Hill. The Saudis just spent billions of dollars to buy weapons which in turn buys them more influence through the Military-Industrial-Complex. Saudi Arabia also has almost trillion dollars invested in various ventures around the United States. She recently threatened to pull out that investment in case the 9/11 lawsuit bill went through congress. If that were to happen the US economy will tank. Of course the US can always freeze those assets.
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  29. The United States foreign policy is truly foreign; foreign to the interests of the United States and formulated in a foreign country, Israel.

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  30. Moi says:
    @Johnny Smoggins
    "What we need is a regime change in Israel...."

    Yes, the whole place from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River needs to be put back in Palestinian hands.

    I could not agree more!!!

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  31. @Priss Factor
    After Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, Syria and Yemen, would America and the world be well-served by a war with Iran that could explode into a Sunni-Shiite religious war across the Middle East?

    It's not about the interests of America. Those are secondary to the interests of Zionist-globalists who see Iran as rival of Israel. The GLOB has zero concern about most Americans.
    Even without Iran, the GLOB logic is the same. Whatever serves the narrow interests and agenda of the GLOB is favored over the interests of rest of America. Besides, Diversity destroyed any sense of American Unity. What is 'American interest' when there are so many kinds of Americans? In this confusing hodge-podge, the ONLY interest that matters is that of the rich, powerful, and connected. And Zionists are tops.

    When US was mostly white, it would have been difficult for Zionists to confuse masses of gentile whites that a War for Israel would be good for the nation.
    But now, even if white gentile America opposes it, the GLOB can say, "There is more to America than White America." Of course, other gentile groups may be even less supportive of the War, but they are so divided that they never come together in unison in opposition to the Glob.
    Also, these non-whites dare not oppose globalism since it allowed them into the US.

    Non-whites get bribed with immigration(as shush money) by globalists, and the globalists get to do whatever they want. Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of.

    “Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of.”

    That’s it in a nutshell.

    This is why the other day I was talking about Carl Jung’s vision of individual human consciousness as analogous to the mushroom in its relation to the mycelium. Either we are related to each other as instances of a collective consciousness and collective unconscious or we are not.

    The collective unconscious is a pool of racial memories dating back to our preverbal world.

    The collective consciousness is made up of the content of all that we can verbalize, write and read about; our history, founder’s myths, science, songs etc.

    We are either an organic whole or we are just a conglomerate.

    In Geology, a conglomerate is composed of dissimilar elements–pebbles–brought together by accident and bound together by the crushing pressure of gravity. They clump but don’t metamorphose and fuse into a unified substance.

    The first view is Biologic, the second Mechanistic.

    The biologic view was most persuasively put forth by–I hate to say it–Adolf Hitler. One blood, One Folk, One Nation. The Nation is the concrete expression of a people’s Geist (as Hegel put it) or Spirit. Spirit (Intelligence, Will, Emotion, Appetite) and Matter interact and mutually define each other in a characteristic way that is unique to a particular breeding population. It is its Culture, its Civilization.

    The Mechanistic view is congenial to a Ruling Class that doesn’t identify with its Subjects. All the trials and tribulations of the lower classes can be attributed to the lawful workings of an Impersonal Machine, the Free Market, acting on isolated Atoms each of which strives to maximize its own gain.

    So, the Left is technically correct in assigning the label of Nazi to people who push the biologic view of the Nation, but in the process unwittingly support the 1%.

    The upshot is, if you care for your Nation–or even believe that such a thing exists–be prepared to be called a Nazi.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    The upshot is, if you care for your Nation–or even believe that such a thing exists–be prepared to be called a Nazi.
     
    unless you're Jewish, in which case all goyim are expected to kill and die so that these people can lord it over the rest of us

    http://www-personal.umich.edu/~hersko/Photos/us%20fight%20for%20israel.jpg

    all white nations must sacrifice their existence to exalt the Jews
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  32. @MEexpert

    Is Iran in Our Gun Sights Now?
     
    Iran has always been in our gunsight. The simultaneous wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were intended to be carried into Iran. It was to be a four prong attack. One from Afghanistan, the second from Iraq, the third from Turkey, and the fourth from Turkmenistan. Unfortunately for the US, Turkey and Turkmenistan refused to allow their bases to be used to launch attacks on Iran. Of course, we know what happened in Afghanistan and Iraq.

    But how is our freedom threatened by a regime with 3 percent of our GDP that has been around since Jimmy Carter was president?
     
    Because our masters, Israel and Saudi Arabia say so. The Iranian regime threatens Israeli hegemony and the backers of Israel in the US cannot have that. Therefore, the regime must be destroyed.

    Whom has he found to rival Washington and Garibaldi? Says Gingrich, “Maryam Rajavi.”
     
    Maryam Rajavi is the ex-wife of the MEK leader Massoud Rajavi and a terrorist by all standards.

    Bolton calls Iran “a nuclear weapons threat.”
     
    Of course he does. He gets paid to say that. Bolton is not alone. Ask McCain, Graham, Cotton, Schumer and 99.9 percent of the "Israel first" congress, the Fox News, the NYT, Washington Post and the rest of the MSM. They all say that, the 2007 NIE be damned.

    We are told we are menaced also by a Shiite Crescent rising and stretching from Beirut to Damascus, Baghdad and Tehran.
     
    No one has ever explained why is the shiite crescent a menace to the US. All four countries have one thing in common and that is the hostility of Israel. They are a threat to Israel's power in the Middle East. Not one of those countries has ever threatened the US.

    Unfortunately, their number is legion: Saudis, Israelis, neocons and their think tanks, websites and magazines, hawks in both parties on Capitol Hill, democracy crusaders, and many in the Pentagon who want to deliver payback for what the Iranian-backed Shiite militias did to us in Iraq.
     
    This is the key to the problem. Saudi/Israel/neocon alliance that wants to serve only Israel. The mess we have created in the Middle East was at the behest of Israel. It is like a child who is afraid of monsters. We fight the monsters and give more toys to the child to make him happy. Similarly, We go to wars because Israel feels threatened and we bomb those countries and give more weapons to Israel to make her happy.

    What we need is a regime change in Israel and an ultimatum to the new regime to make peace with its neighbors or fight its own battles.

    Tzarist Russia and GB divided Iran between them in 1911, the first time Iran’s democracy was overturned.
    In 1953 it was the USA, with British support, prime minister Mossadeq had nationalised Iranian oil.
    USA puppet shah began to rule.
    In 1979 Islam liberated Iran.
    Of course Iran is in the USA’s sights, as any country not dancing to the USA tune.
    But maybe Trump sees that making others dance to USA tunes has become too costly.

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    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Islam liberated the Iranian people from the Shah and his Western masters.

    It did not liberate the Iranian people.

    There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic.

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  33. Sen. Sessions was one of the “47″
    List Of 47 Senators By State That Sent A Letter To IRAN

    http://michaelangelo-raphaelo.blogspot.com/2015/07/some-call-it-treason-list-of-47.html?spref=tw

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  34. Gg Mo says:
    @Ludwig Watzal
    I'm always wondering that nuts such as Gingrich, Bolton, Juliani and many other Ziocon war hawks have still such an influence on the US mainstream media. That these mentioned are supporting the terror organization Mujahedeen-e-Khalq doesn't surprise me because they are political terrorists themselves. To start a war with Iran is the craziest thing the US could do. The US Empire can lock back of successfully messing up the whole Middle East. Why not continuing on this path and taking on Iran? The only nation that will profit from such a disaster will be Israel and Saudi Arabia. Why should the US do their bidding? If these terrorist supporting states want to overthrow Iran, they should do it themselves. Why should Americans sacrifice themselves for these thugs in Tel Aviv and Riadah? One can hope that President Trump is all there and doesn't listen to these war-mongers.

    Wonder no more , and peruse the Smith Mundt Modernization Act that was used to speed the take-over by the Deep-state Collectivist Neo-con/Neo0-liberal parasites of as much Media as possible.

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  35. Gg Mo says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    I wouldn't deny you the pleasures of your second paragraph fantasy but when you are wholly back on earth would you care to explain the joining of Gingrich, Bolton and Giuiiani in one anathema? (And what makes Giuliani one of tbe bad guys anyway in an imperfect world?).

    Globalist Freaks stick together. Remember Cintra, the Spanish consortium to have Toll-ways in the US , by owning and constructing the Trans-Texas Corridor (Hwy 121) ? So much more joins these pigs-in-a-pen-of-their-own-greed.

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  36. @Chris Mallory
    $200/barrel oil would do much harm to most Americans.

    Many if it happened quickly I concede. But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.

    Of course it might make the leaders of Russia and Venezuela very happy too.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Chris Mallory

    But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.
     
    No thanks to all of it. Especially "what could be done by government".
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  37. nsa says:

    Great News! The vile warmongering jooie tool, Johnnie “Tokyo Rose” McCain, has brain cancer. Rose is descended from a long line of vile traitors…..his admiral father led the cover-up of the USS Liberty slaughter by the vile treacherous jooies. We can only hope Rose’s demise is very slow and very painful…….and the Reaper collects lots more of these vile traitorous zio creeps in the near future.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    demise is very slow and very painful…….
     
    I consider myself a compassionate person, and I'd like to think I wish no one harm, even people who've done me or mine wrong, so long as they don't do it again.

    but when it comes to John McBloodstain, it would surely be wonderful news for every living thing on this planet for him to suffer unimaginably, a tiny, tiny fraction of the miseries that this singularly heinous individual has caused others to suffer so horribly.

    a kind of reverse crucifixion, where for once it's the evil and wicked that die slowly, rather than the righteous and humble.

    the good people of the earth should actually celebrate with joyful hearts the demise of this execrable man, and all that he represents.

    Everything being written about Gingrich and the other whores of Zion, are ten times worse when it comes to the Bloodstain.

    let's all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don't send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while...

    ;)

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  38. Rurik says: • Website
    @ThreeCranes
    "Diversity means there is no united people whom the elites must be mindful of."

    That's it in a nutshell.

    This is why the other day I was talking about Carl Jung's vision of individual human consciousness as analogous to the mushroom in its relation to the mycelium. Either we are related to each other as instances of a collective consciousness and collective unconscious or we are not.

    The collective unconscious is a pool of racial memories dating back to our preverbal world.

    The collective consciousness is made up of the content of all that we can verbalize, write and read about; our history, founder's myths, science, songs etc.

    We are either an organic whole or we are just a conglomerate.

    In Geology, a conglomerate is composed of dissimilar elements--pebbles--brought together by accident and bound together by the crushing pressure of gravity. They clump but don't metamorphose and fuse into a unified substance.

    The first view is Biologic, the second Mechanistic.

    The biologic view was most persuasively put forth by--I hate to say it--Adolf Hitler. One blood, One Folk, One Nation. The Nation is the concrete expression of a people's Geist (as Hegel put it) or Spirit. Spirit (Intelligence, Will, Emotion, Appetite) and Matter interact and mutually define each other in a characteristic way that is unique to a particular breeding population. It is its Culture, its Civilization.

    The Mechanistic view is congenial to a Ruling Class that doesn't identify with its Subjects. All the trials and tribulations of the lower classes can be attributed to the lawful workings of an Impersonal Machine, the Free Market, acting on isolated Atoms each of which strives to maximize its own gain.

    So, the Left is technically correct in assigning the label of Nazi to people who push the biologic view of the Nation, but in the process unwittingly support the 1%.

    The upshot is, if you care for your Nation--or even believe that such a thing exists--be prepared to be called a Nazi.

    The upshot is, if you care for your Nation–or even believe that such a thing exists–be prepared to be called a Nazi.

    unless you’re Jewish, in which case all goyim are expected to kill and die so that these people can lord it over the rest of us

    all white nations must sacrifice their existence to exalt the Jews

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  39. @Wizard of Oz
    Many if it happened quickly I concede. But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.

    Of course it might make the leaders of Russia and Venezuela very happy too.

    But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.

    No thanks to all of it. Especially “what could be done by government”.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Well I almost suggested the US government might reduce debt but I thought you might laugh.

    Cuts in corporate taxation more plausible perhaps and payment of pensions certainly but what's wrong with increasing the proportion of electric vehicles and speeding up the ultimately (OK very long term) move to near 100 per cent renewable energy?
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  40. @Wizard of Oz
    Only to offer a medium sized quibble....

    $200 a barrel oil would be bad for most people in the world but not necessarily for the US since fracking has made a net hydrocarbon exporter. Which American statesman is goung to be inhibited by thinking which proceeds much beyond that?

    You’re wrong about that. US production IS up, about 10MM BBL per day. US Consumption is well above that level, so we would need to spend, um, 8MM times $150 extra per day for oil. That’s 1.2Bln extra in imports per day, about a $500Bln annual deficit in spending.

    Of course, the frackers would GET an additional 1.5 billion per day while people not connected to oil would lose out, big time. I would guess that that is the point.

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  41. Rurik says: • Website
    @nsa
    Great News! The vile warmongering jooie tool, Johnnie "Tokyo Rose" McCain, has brain cancer. Rose is descended from a long line of vile traitors.....his admiral father led the cover-up of the USS Liberty slaughter by the vile treacherous jooies. We can only hope Rose's demise is very slow and very painful.......and the Reaper collects lots more of these vile traitorous zio creeps in the near future.

    demise is very slow and very painful…….

    I consider myself a compassionate person, and I’d like to think I wish no one harm, even people who’ve done me or mine wrong, so long as they don’t do it again.

    but when it comes to John McBloodstain, it would surely be wonderful news for every living thing on this planet for him to suffer unimaginably, a tiny, tiny fraction of the miseries that this singularly heinous individual has caused others to suffer so horribly.

    a kind of reverse crucifixion, where for once it’s the evil and wicked that die slowly, rather than the righteous and humble.

    the good people of the earth should actually celebrate with joyful hearts the demise of this execrable man, and all that he represents.

    Everything being written about Gingrich and the other whores of Zion, are ten times worse when it comes to the Bloodstain.

    let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don’t send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while…
    ;)

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    "let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity,"

    That right there is a mortal sin. Wishing someone else into hell, even the worst person, earns you a first-class ticket.

    Let's just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.
    , @Anonymous

    let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don’t send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while…
     
    I would hate to be in his shoes entering into eternity. And if he reflects on the pain and death and destruction that he has wrought, and his conscience awakens, he will come to the sickening realization that he cannot undo what he has done.

    Six months of wasting away...fade to black ... awaken to find yourself separated from God in compelete darkness and isolation for all of eternity. Eternal solitary confinement. I shutter to think how many similar people in politics and media who view war and death so cavalierly, especially in comparison to the adulation in political life, will find themselves separated from God after this transitory existence.
    , @Cloak And Dagger
    An atheist such as I, does not hesitate to condemn Tokyo Rose to agonizing and prolonged torture and eternal damnation (!) to feel even a fraction of the grief and misery he has inflicted on the people of the Middle East in groveling servitude to his Israeli masters. May he fry in the fires of hell that I attach no belief to, but perhaps even after death a mind persists that can suffer the anguish of karmic vengeance.

    While there is no god, there is death, and the possibility of excruciating pain verging on madness. I wish this on John McCain a thousand fold. I also wish this on all the neocons such as John Bolton and the Zionist cabal who have wreaked such untold havoc on this world. Our brothers have shed their blood in foreign lands for a fight that was not theirs, and they continue to do so. Our treasure has been stolen in large quantities while our citizens live homeless and unemployed in the streets. Our reputation has been tarnished and our image of ourselves as a righteous nation of laws and moral nobility has been shattered and our faces rubbed in it each day.

    And an orphan child weeps in Yemen, Libya, Palestine, Iraq, Syria. They may yet forgive John McCain, but you are a better man than I, Gunga Din.

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  42. Fortunately, Gingrich has found a leader to bring down the Iranian regime and ensure the freedom of mankind. “In our country that was George Washington and … the Marquis de Lafayette. In Italy it was Garibaldi,” says Gingrich.

    Gingrich has a PhD in history from Tulane University. Time to write to them and ask that it be revoked.

    Here’s a quote from Moldbug:

    The Risorgimento was a disaster for Naples and for the south in general. Before 1860 the Mezzogiorno was the richest part of Italy outside the Austrian Empire; after it quickly became the poorest. The facts speak for themselves. In 1859 money circulating in The Two Sicilies amounted to more than that circulating in all other independent Italian states, while the Bank of Naples’s gold reserve was 443 million gold lire, twice the combined reserves of the rest of Italy. This gold was immediately confiscated by Piedmont – whose own reserve had been a mere 27 million – and transferred to Turin. Neapolitan excise duties, levied to keep out the north’s inferior goods and providing four-fifths of the city’s revenue, were abolished. And then the northerners imposed crushing new taxes. Far from being liberators, the Piedmontese administrators who came in the wake of the Risorgimento behaved like Yankees in the post-bellum Southern States; they ruled The Two Sicilies as an occupied country, systematically demolishing its institutions and industries.

    Original link: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/04/open-letter-pt-2-more-historical.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Gingrich has a PhD in history
     
    History is a very elusive subject because it can take both a mantle of science and of a propaganda, sometimes simultaneously (depending on POV). I read Newt's historic "interpretations"--he is not really a historian. He is especially no scientist--he is a politician. Well, if you have an issue with Risorgimento, I have huge issues with Newt's WW II views.
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  43. anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    People like Gingrich and Bolton are dangerously absurd. The current government of Iran has since it’s inception been sinking very deep roots into it’s society and has the support of most of it’s population. It can’t be toppled like some banana republic tinpot dictatorship. Even back in it’s very early days during it’s war with Iraq it was able to rally and prevail. Like it or not, call it a dictatorship if one likes, it’s not going anywhere. What we have here is the substitution of fantasy for rational policy. Blowback and disaster would be the result of any rash moves on the part of the US. Giving worthless speeches for big money must be the new legal payoff scheme these days.

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    • Replies: @alternatereality
    Gingrich's wife Calista (don't remember if she is #2 or #3; do recall that Newt delivered divorce papers to #1 while she was in hospital after surgery) has tremendous Senate support for post of US ambassador to Vatican. Trump appointed her.

    Don't look to Trump to counter Newt's warmongering.

    Don't look to Pope Francis to counter US warmongering. He's been compromised from the get-go.

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  44. lavoisier says: • Website
    @jilles dykstra
    Tzarist Russia and GB divided Iran between them in 1911, the first time Iran's democracy was overturned.
    In 1953 it was the USA, with British support, prime minister Mossadeq had nationalised Iranian oil.
    USA puppet shah began to rule.
    In 1979 Islam liberated Iran.
    Of course Iran is in the USA's sights, as any country not dancing to the USA tune.
    But maybe Trump sees that making others dance to USA tunes has become too costly.

    Islam liberated the Iranian people from the Shah and his Western masters.

    It did not liberate the Iranian people.

    There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic.

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    • Replies: @yeah
    "There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic".

    With all due respect, that is a question for the Iranian people to decide. The world has had too many American liberations a la Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, all over Latin America. How much war do you crave? Let things and people be as they are and focus on improving yourself.
    , @jilles dykstra
    Never seen the pictures when the ayatollah got out of the plane, after the shah had fled ?
    Why does the USA fight Iran ?
    Simply because Iran is not a USA puppet state.
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  45. Mr Buchanan’s argument is always essnetially the same, like a cocktail that you can make with gin, rum, vodka or tequila. The flavour is slightly different but it’s still the same cocktail! Why capitulate to Iran? Because it is said, whether accurately or not, to be Vladimir Putin’s ally. Why capitulate to Vladimir Putin? Because he is to be used as a battering ram to break up the EU. (He has already tried and failed, but Mr Buchanan doesn’t seems to have noticed that.) Why break up the EU? Because it is a threat to US global hegemony. Delenda est EU! I wouldn’t count on Trump, though. He says everything and the opposite of everything but does more or less nothing. And that is to say nothing of the Israel Lobby or any “grip” the bankers to whom Trump is said to owe a vast amount of money might have on him.

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  46. @Rurik

    demise is very slow and very painful…….
     
    I consider myself a compassionate person, and I'd like to think I wish no one harm, even people who've done me or mine wrong, so long as they don't do it again.

    but when it comes to John McBloodstain, it would surely be wonderful news for every living thing on this planet for him to suffer unimaginably, a tiny, tiny fraction of the miseries that this singularly heinous individual has caused others to suffer so horribly.

    a kind of reverse crucifixion, where for once it's the evil and wicked that die slowly, rather than the righteous and humble.

    the good people of the earth should actually celebrate with joyful hearts the demise of this execrable man, and all that he represents.

    Everything being written about Gingrich and the other whores of Zion, are ten times worse when it comes to the Bloodstain.

    let's all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don't send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while...

    ;)

    “let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity,”

    That right there is a mortal sin. Wishing someone else into hell, even the worst person, earns you a first-class ticket.

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.
     
    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    I went from loving the US, to despising its role in the world as a Satanic goon of Israel, slaughtering and displacing millions, as it destroys nation after nation, life after innocent life.

    I can't reconcile myself to what America has come to represent in the world today. From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Our government is as close to being a direct representative of the devil as I'm aware of. Murder, torture, tyranny and genocide at home and abroad. It seems there's nothing too wicked or despicable that my government doesn't embrace as policy.

    and no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John - the Bloodstain - McCain.

    so yea, perhaps it's a sin, (and if so, it won't be my only one), but if a man represents true evil, and is directly responsible for the literally incomprehensible suffering of millions upon millions of people, and more to the point, if he had his druthers, would no doubt condemn all of us to torture and misery and death, if that's what it took to augment even more earthly power for this eminently loathsome POS, then so be it. I guess I'll have to answer to the Gods for it, when the time comes, and somehow I rather imagine that in McCain's case, They/He/She/It will quite understand my motivations for feeling the way I do.

    God bless the good and decent people of this planet. And God damn the murderous fiends to eternal hell.

    but not too soon

    Peace
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  47. I do not get the adoration of discredited chicken hawk warmonger John Bolton. The DC radio station WMAL interviews him every couple of weeks and they gush and hump his leg as they do so. Bolton is far from the only guilty party but he seems to make more noise than anyone. Bolton would have us bombing Nepal, Chad, and Bolivia. For someone who has been out of an official position for so long, the guy sure has hung around and glommed onto a lot of things that are none of his business.

    I wish this lunatic would go away and I wish he would take Gingrich with him. Am also fed up with republican friends telling me how awesome newt would be in the Trump cabinet and what a “great chief of staff” he would make. No, he would not. Gingrich is flippant and a horrible listener and way too pushy for my taste. He acts like an agent of the military-industrial complex and considers every corner of the world as a place that should be under surveillance, and getting ready to bomb, invade, and try to remake another government (they never learn).

    Is it too much to hope for some degree of humility and reality in our military and global affairs policies? Good grief we are $20T in debt. We obviously are doing something wrong and need a different, less expensive approach.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Bolton is far from the only guilty party but he seems to make more noise than anyone. Bolton would have us bombing Nepal, Chad, and Bolivia.
     
    US power "elites" are overwhelmingly ignorant on fundamental issues of warfare, overwhelming majority of them never served a day in uniform, let alone took part in any operations, they also do not understand weapons (most of those "elites" are lawyers by education) nor have any idea what directed (at them) violence is. Those of them who served, for some reason produce such nut jobs as Tom Cotton, let alone war-mongers of McCain status.

    Is it too much to hope for some degree of humility and reality in our military and global affairs policies?
     
    Read US "version" of the 20-21th Century history and imagine Suslov and all his Ideological Department of Central Committee of CPSU falling to their knees in humility in a front of such ideological (and BS, obviously) power. Hell, Goebbels would be impressed.
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  48. Talha says:
    @Mark Green
    Men like Bolton and Gingrich should be banished from the world stage. Their policies have not only failed, but have caused widespread suffering, exile, death and annihilation. Why aren't these armchair invaders held accountable for their ignoble deeds? They should be behind bars, not on TV.

    But these globetrotting neocons are rewarded instead with high visibility and premier status. They are kept aloft by a co-conspiring news media that similarly pimps for Zio-American hegemony.

    If 'hate speech' and 'Holocaust Denial' are serious crimes, why not include 'warmongering'? Its list of innocent victims is far, far greater.

    Politicians and public figures who advocate for preemptive wars are pleading, in effect, for mass murder. Their mindset presents a clear and present danger to world order and the rule of law. Warmongering undermines human civilization. We must take them down before they take us down.

    Hey Mark,

    Excellent suggestions! I was shocked to read that Maryam Rajavi is being touted as anybody that should be anywhere close to power in Iran. The MEK are hated by practically everyone in Iran. It seems the war mongers are not just evil, they seem to be completely mad as well.

    I’m very glad Russia is on the rise and becoming more influential with its alliances in the ME. I think there is no hope from our side to prevent the war against Iran – the entire Neo-con machine wants to plunge into another disaster. But the Russians showed that, if they want, they can be the cog that prevents regime change in that region.

    Here’s the thing:
    1) There is no regime change without US boots on the ground (the Arabs are in no shape to do it and Pakistan will not either).
    2) The US would have to move a huge field army into the area – the only viable places are Iraq (not happening – unless we are talking about stable Kurdish controlled area), Kuwait (yeah – let’s put them all in one small place), Afghanistan (not happening), Turkey (not happening) and maybe Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
    3) This would telegraph the entire intention and Russia could counter as they did in Syria with AA and air-superiority fighters on Iranian soil.

    None of this seems likely – they most they can do is cowardly launch a bunch of cruise missiles here and there and make more of a mess of things.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
     
    I would say you are a bit too coy on this account. Iraq is possible but unlikely, Azerbaijan? Last time I checked, Ilham Aliev was well educated (MGIMO no less) and not a stupid national leader to commit a political suicide. This is not to speak of a number of Azeris in Russia being larger than the number of Azeris in Azerbaijan proper. So, I would say the probability of such a scenario is zero. I would, however, in the case of US willing to commit suicide in Iran, expect vast numbers of Azeri, Chechen, Dagestani and even Russian volunteers flooding Iran. This, plus a "small" factor of Russia not being too enthused about having any American bases (however unlikely they are) on the shores of the Caspian Sea.
    , @Mark Green
    Hi Rurik. Nice to hear from you! I always enjoy your comments. I admire also your goodwill and manners.

    Peace.
    , @MEexpert
    Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran is an Azeri.
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  49. @TomSchmidt
    Fortunately, Gingrich has found a leader to bring down the Iranian regime and ensure the freedom of mankind. “In our country that was George Washington and … the Marquis de Lafayette. In Italy it was Garibaldi,” says Gingrich.

    Gingrich has a PhD in history from Tulane University. Time to write to them and ask that it be revoked.

    Here's a quote from Moldbug:

    The Risorgimento was a disaster for Naples and for the south in general. Before 1860 the Mezzogiorno was the richest part of Italy outside the Austrian Empire; after it quickly became the poorest. The facts speak for themselves. In 1859 money circulating in The Two Sicilies amounted to more than that circulating in all other independent Italian states, while the Bank of Naples's gold reserve was 443 million gold lire, twice the combined reserves of the rest of Italy. This gold was immediately confiscated by Piedmont - whose own reserve had been a mere 27 million - and transferred to Turin. Neapolitan excise duties, levied to keep out the north's inferior goods and providing four-fifths of the city's revenue, were abolished. And then the northerners imposed crushing new taxes. Far from being liberators, the Piedmontese administrators who came in the wake of the Risorgimento behaved like Yankees in the post-bellum Southern States; they ruled The Two Sicilies as an occupied country, systematically demolishing its institutions and industries.
     
    Original link: http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2008/04/open-letter-pt-2-more-historical.html

    Gingrich has a PhD in history

    History is a very elusive subject because it can take both a mantle of science and of a propaganda, sometimes simultaneously (depending on POV). I read Newt’s historic “interpretations”–he is not really a historian. He is especially no scientist–he is a politician. Well, if you have an issue with Risorgimento, I have huge issues with Newt’s WW II views.

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    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    We'd probably agree on Newt's WW2 views.

    I had gone along with the view of Garibaldi as "liberator," the lazy victor's history that Newt cites here. Until I read that page by Moldbug, citing a 19th-century British author who hadn't gotten the memo on Garibaldi. The latter now appears to be a hitman for the corporatist powers up north in Italy; you're welcome to refute what's written there. To me, the big issue is emigration from Southern Italy, practically nil before the Risorgimento, and the largest component of Italian emigration after. Perhaps that is due to lack of opportunity to leave, but I suspect the matter lies more with Northern depredation of the South.
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  50. @Buck Turgidson
    I do not get the adoration of discredited chicken hawk warmonger John Bolton. The DC radio station WMAL interviews him every couple of weeks and they gush and hump his leg as they do so. Bolton is far from the only guilty party but he seems to make more noise than anyone. Bolton would have us bombing Nepal, Chad, and Bolivia. For someone who has been out of an official position for so long, the guy sure has hung around and glommed onto a lot of things that are none of his business.

    I wish this lunatic would go away and I wish he would take Gingrich with him. Am also fed up with republican friends telling me how awesome newt would be in the Trump cabinet and what a "great chief of staff" he would make. No, he would not. Gingrich is flippant and a horrible listener and way too pushy for my taste. He acts like an agent of the military-industrial complex and considers every corner of the world as a place that should be under surveillance, and getting ready to bomb, invade, and try to remake another government (they never learn).

    Is it too much to hope for some degree of humility and reality in our military and global affairs policies? Good grief we are $20T in debt. We obviously are doing something wrong and need a different, less expensive approach.

    Bolton is far from the only guilty party but he seems to make more noise than anyone. Bolton would have us bombing Nepal, Chad, and Bolivia.

    US power “elites” are overwhelmingly ignorant on fundamental issues of warfare, overwhelming majority of them never served a day in uniform, let alone took part in any operations, they also do not understand weapons (most of those “elites” are lawyers by education) nor have any idea what directed (at them) violence is. Those of them who served, for some reason produce such nut jobs as Tom Cotton, let alone war-mongers of McCain status.

    Is it too much to hope for some degree of humility and reality in our military and global affairs policies?

    Read US “version” of the 20-21th Century history and imagine Suslov and all his Ideological Department of Central Committee of CPSU falling to their knees in humility in a front of such ideological (and BS, obviously) power. Hell, Goebbels would be impressed.

    Read More
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  51. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Rurik

    demise is very slow and very painful…….
     
    I consider myself a compassionate person, and I'd like to think I wish no one harm, even people who've done me or mine wrong, so long as they don't do it again.

    but when it comes to John McBloodstain, it would surely be wonderful news for every living thing on this planet for him to suffer unimaginably, a tiny, tiny fraction of the miseries that this singularly heinous individual has caused others to suffer so horribly.

    a kind of reverse crucifixion, where for once it's the evil and wicked that die slowly, rather than the righteous and humble.

    the good people of the earth should actually celebrate with joyful hearts the demise of this execrable man, and all that he represents.

    Everything being written about Gingrich and the other whores of Zion, are ten times worse when it comes to the Bloodstain.

    let's all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don't send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while...

    ;)

    let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don’t send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while…

    I would hate to be in his shoes entering into eternity. And if he reflects on the pain and death and destruction that he has wrought, and his conscience awakens, he will come to the sickening realization that he cannot undo what he has done.

    Six months of wasting away…fade to black … awaken to find yourself separated from God in compelete darkness and isolation for all of eternity. Eternal solitary confinement. I shutter to think how many similar people in politics and media who view war and death so cavalierly, especially in comparison to the adulation in political life, will find themselves separated from God after this transitory existence.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    who view war and death so cavalierly
     
    if only he were cavalier about it.

    rather he is feverishly relentless in his pursuit of it

    there's nothing that John - the Bloodstain - McCain would like better than for American boy and girls to get slaughtered in a world war with Iran and Russia and Syria and Lebanon and all nations and all places anywhere on the planet that looked at Israel cross eyed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vrPY15CYqc

    here I imagine the Spartan king to represent the ghost of the millions and millions of men, women and children that John McCain's traitorous ego and lust for earthy power has led to their horrible deaths.

    if he lived for ever (as cancer eats away his brain) it would not be long enough to do penance for the wickedness of that man's black and sinister soul

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  52. Joe Wong says:
    @Mark Green
    Men like Bolton and Gingrich should be banished from the world stage. Their policies have not only failed, but have caused widespread suffering, exile, death and annihilation. Why aren't these armchair invaders held accountable for their ignoble deeds? They should be behind bars, not on TV.

    But these globetrotting neocons are rewarded instead with high visibility and premier status. They are kept aloft by a co-conspiring news media that similarly pimps for Zio-American hegemony.

    If 'hate speech' and 'Holocaust Denial' are serious crimes, why not include 'warmongering'? Its list of innocent victims is far, far greater.

    Politicians and public figures who advocate for preemptive wars are pleading, in effect, for mass murder. Their mindset presents a clear and present danger to world order and the rule of law. Warmongering undermines human civilization. We must take them down before they take us down.

    Bolton and Gingrich do not exit in vacuum, they are the finest product of the American culture which the USA considers itself the sole prominent political, economic and military power which has the greatest force for stability in the world. Therefore it would be dark day if Iran can destroy the credibility of American power and American willingness to use its power to achieve good to fight back against totalitarian in human rights abuses.

    Millions upon millions of Americans have been volunteering to be the tool of that American power unconditionally, it seems you do not understand the American.

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    • Agree: Sowhat, AndrewR
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  53. yeah says:
    @lavoisier
    Islam liberated the Iranian people from the Shah and his Western masters.

    It did not liberate the Iranian people.

    There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic.

    “There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic”.

    With all due respect, that is a question for the Iranian people to decide. The world has had too many American liberations a la Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, all over Latin America. How much war do you crave? Let things and people be as they are and focus on improving yourself.

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    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @lavoisier
    I crave neither war nor intervention with Iran.

    But the Islamic Republic is a ruthless dictatorship and it is naive to pretend otherwise.

    The country bleeds out its best and brightest today for that reason.
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  54. @Talha
    Hey Mark,

    Excellent suggestions! I was shocked to read that Maryam Rajavi is being touted as anybody that should be anywhere close to power in Iran. The MEK are hated by practically everyone in Iran. It seems the war mongers are not just evil, they seem to be completely mad as well.

    I'm very glad Russia is on the rise and becoming more influential with its alliances in the ME. I think there is no hope from our side to prevent the war against Iran - the entire Neo-con machine wants to plunge into another disaster. But the Russians showed that, if they want, they can be the cog that prevents regime change in that region.

    Here's the thing:
    1) There is no regime change without US boots on the ground (the Arabs are in no shape to do it and Pakistan will not either).
    2) The US would have to move a huge field army into the area - the only viable places are Iraq (not happening - unless we are talking about stable Kurdish controlled area), Kuwait (yeah - let's put them all in one small place), Afghanistan (not happening), Turkey (not happening) and maybe Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
    3) This would telegraph the entire intention and Russia could counter as they did in Syria with AA and air-superiority fighters on Iranian soil.

    None of this seems likely - they most they can do is cowardly launch a bunch of cruise missiles here and there and make more of a mess of things.

    Peace.

    Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).

    I would say you are a bit too coy on this account. Iraq is possible but unlikely, Azerbaijan? Last time I checked, Ilham Aliev was well educated (MGIMO no less) and not a stupid national leader to commit a political suicide. This is not to speak of a number of Azeris in Russia being larger than the number of Azeris in Azerbaijan proper. So, I would say the probability of such a scenario is zero. I would, however, in the case of US willing to commit suicide in Iran, expect vast numbers of Azeri, Chechen, Dagestani and even Russian volunteers flooding Iran. This, plus a “small” factor of Russia not being too enthused about having any American bases (however unlikely they are) on the shores of the Caspian Sea.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Andrei,

    Excellent points on the military tip - as usual. I had no idea about that many Azeris being in Russia. I do know a sizable number are in Iran, so they would definitely be up at arms about it.

    As far as Iraq, I know the Shiah militias gave the US the notice that there will be no tolerance of a military build up against Iran on their territory. The Kurds are the unpredictable ones...but how does one roll in a large army into their territory in the first place?


    vast numbers of Azeri, Chechen, Dagestani and even Russian volunteers flooding Iran
     
    Indeed - game on. I can guarantee you there would be men flocking in from both Afghanistan and Pakistan too.

    Peace.

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  55. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
     
    I would say you are a bit too coy on this account. Iraq is possible but unlikely, Azerbaijan? Last time I checked, Ilham Aliev was well educated (MGIMO no less) and not a stupid national leader to commit a political suicide. This is not to speak of a number of Azeris in Russia being larger than the number of Azeris in Azerbaijan proper. So, I would say the probability of such a scenario is zero. I would, however, in the case of US willing to commit suicide in Iran, expect vast numbers of Azeri, Chechen, Dagestani and even Russian volunteers flooding Iran. This, plus a "small" factor of Russia not being too enthused about having any American bases (however unlikely they are) on the shores of the Caspian Sea.

    Hey Andrei,

    Excellent points on the military tip – as usual. I had no idea about that many Azeris being in Russia. I do know a sizable number are in Iran, so they would definitely be up at arms about it.

    As far as Iraq, I know the Shiah militias gave the US the notice that there will be no tolerance of a military build up against Iran on their territory. The Kurds are the unpredictable ones…but how does one roll in a large army into their territory in the first place?

    vast numbers of Azeri, Chechen, Dagestani and even Russian volunteers flooding Iran

    Indeed – game on. I can guarantee you there would be men flocking in from both Afghanistan and Pakistan too.

    Peace.

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  56. @lavoisier
    Islam liberated the Iranian people from the Shah and his Western masters.

    It did not liberate the Iranian people.

    There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic.

    Never seen the pictures when the ayatollah got out of the plane, after the shah had fled ?
    Why does the USA fight Iran ?
    Simply because Iran is not a USA puppet state.

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  57. Joe Wong says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    Can Ron Unz find someone to give a satisfactory explanation of US madness, with a focus, because a study of US madness could otherwise be enormously diffuse, on attitudes to and actual and proposed policies on Iran?

    If there were no other problems in the world to concern conscientious Americans then I can understand its old missionary spirit focusing on what might be done for Iranians, but....???

    Americans who might have thought in 1990 that at last their country might be governed so that, the Cold War ended, the huge gains from free trade and barely imagineable technological innovation (not least in medicine) would steadily lead to an improvement in the quality of life and healthy longevity for the vast majority - without their having to make vast unwanted adjustments like having fewer children or none till their late 30s - those Americans have been betrayed by the political class and its donor-owners.

    A convincing explanation might cover the psychological ground that I see as needed to explain a somewhat less damaging irrationality (as it seems to me) in Australian politics. Here it is perfectly obvious that nothing Australia can do or say with respect to emissions of carbon dioxide can have the slightest effect on the country's future wellbeing in terms of future rainfall, temperatures, sea levels or extreme weather events. Australia has huge reserves of high quality and also brown coal but only emits 1.4 per cent of the world's CO2. If it is the big problem it is China, the US and India which could perhaps fix it. Australia rationally should just make itself rich enough to adapt. But its governments, nationally and in every state have hugely expensive mandated renewables targets, efectually subsidies for wind and solar power, and two states have already suffered major peak load outages as a result. (Australia could still have just about the cheapest electricity in the world for producing aluminium but hands the business to China along with exports of coal for Chinese piwer plants).

    In the last few weeks Elon Musk has offered to build a giant lithium battery (the world's biggest) for South Australia whose left and Green politicians - of all parties - have overcommitted it to windpower with dire results. Maybe it is the way to go if we are content for China to burn our coal and make our aluminium. Will there be enough lithium or substitute? My point of course in the context I began with is what explains or contols the thought processes of non expert politicians caught up in apparent irrationality. (From an old friend, now dead, I hear the advice to look fkr substitutes for religion).

    Why can’t Elon Musk propose a turnkey job that he will raise fund and build the lithium battery project then collect his investment thru user fee? This way his project will not interfere Australian commitment on windpower generation. In addition why China is at fault by creating jobs and investing in Australia?

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    You seem to have completely misunderstood the facts and my point. Chinese investment in Australia is very welcome, with a few small irrelevant quibbles. But it doesn't make sense for Australia to deny to investores in Australia, including Chinese investors, the ability to use cheap Australian coal to make cheap electricity for aluminium production while exporting cheap coal to China so it can produce cheap electricity which then allows it to undercut Australian aluminium production costs.

    As to Elon Musk I think he may well have proposed just such a deal as you mention though the PR has been about his offering the battery free if it is not built on time.
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  58. @jilles dykstra
    Who wants to know how and why the USA behaves towards Iran as it does should read
    Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, William Blum, et.al., 'Superpower principles, U.S. Terrorism against Cuba', 2005, Monroe
    Just replace 'Cuba' by 'Iran', and 'socialism' by 'Islam'.

    I doubt one can know “how and why the USA behaves towards Iran” by reading Chomsky.
    Chomsky might be a genius but I doubt he is intellectually honest. He doesn’t believe that the lobby exist. Even when brilliant scholars (John J. Mearsheimer, Stephen M. Walt) proved it beyond doubt, he just dismissed it. Of course one doesn’t need to have a PhD to understand who controls The USA foreign policy. I’d suggest that you can understand more “how and why the USA behaves towards Iran” reading some posts here than reading the entire 130 books Chomsky wrote.
    Or if you want can you can just read one article by Dr. Paul Craig Roberts. This one for example.

    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/paul-craig-roberts/trump-not-charge/

    Chomsky is a fraud. If you want someone serious and anti war ,100% anti war, read Ron Paul.
    Chomsky also believes the crap that the President of Syria is the new Hitler. I am sure , being a brilliant man, he can find brilliant arguments to justify why Assad must be destroyed, but he will be lying.

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  59. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt
    "let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity,"

    That right there is a mortal sin. Wishing someone else into hell, even the worst person, earns you a first-class ticket.

    Let's just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    I went from loving the US, to despising its role in the world as a Satanic goon of Israel, slaughtering and displacing millions, as it destroys nation after nation, life after innocent life.

    I can’t reconcile myself to what America has come to represent in the world today. From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Our government is as close to being a direct representative of the devil as I’m aware of. Murder, torture, tyranny and genocide at home and abroad. It seems there’s nothing too wicked or despicable that my government doesn’t embrace as policy.

    and no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.

    so yea, perhaps it’s a sin, (and if so, it won’t be my only one), but if a man represents true evil, and is directly responsible for the literally incomprehensible suffering of millions upon millions of people, and more to the point, if he had his druthers, would no doubt condemn all of us to torture and misery and death, if that’s what it took to augment even more earthly power for this eminently loathsome POS, then so be it. I guess I’ll have to answer to the Gods for it, when the time comes, and somehow I rather imagine that in McCain’s case, They/He/She/It will quite understand my motivations for feeling the way I do.

    God bless the good and decent people of this planet. And God damn the murderous fiends to eternal hell.

    but not too soon

    Peace

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    • Agree: Z-man
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.
     
    Zounds. I have had the same feeling myself. Left and right, I still appreciate most americans, who are decent people who would not rain hellfire from drones on innocent people, and would rightly be horrified if they did so accidentally.

    From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.
     
    Well, you're deprogramming. Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines before Disney made a single cartoon or Rockwell drew a single cover for the SEP. Imperialist war supporting the Anglo-American empire has been our game since the 19th century. Ask an Indian from Wounded Knee.

    no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.
     
    McCain has power and so is able to effect evil. I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of Barbara Ann. Still, having served in the military, he at least put his body on the line, unlike Wolfowitz and many of the armchair generals. It's tough to decide which viper in the den is most worthy of the Mongoose.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won't take up arms against it, but I won't miss it when it collapses.
    , @TomSchmidt
    As to sin, I refer you to this link, #585. Don't let McCain's evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.
    , @jacques sheete
    I believe I know how you feel. sounds as if we've probably traveled many of the same roads.

    The whole system is utterly loathsome.
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  60. Rurik says: • Website
    @Anonymous

    let’s all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don’t send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while…
     
    I would hate to be in his shoes entering into eternity. And if he reflects on the pain and death and destruction that he has wrought, and his conscience awakens, he will come to the sickening realization that he cannot undo what he has done.

    Six months of wasting away...fade to black ... awaken to find yourself separated from God in compelete darkness and isolation for all of eternity. Eternal solitary confinement. I shutter to think how many similar people in politics and media who view war and death so cavalierly, especially in comparison to the adulation in political life, will find themselves separated from God after this transitory existence.

    who view war and death so cavalierly

    if only he were cavalier about it.

    rather he is feverishly relentless in his pursuit of it

    there’s nothing that John – the Bloodstain – McCain would like better than for American boy and girls to get slaughtered in a world war with Iran and Russia and Syria and Lebanon and all nations and all places anywhere on the planet that looked at Israel cross eyed.

    here I imagine the Spartan king to represent the ghost of the millions and millions of men, women and children that John McCain’s traitorous ego and lust for earthy power has led to their horrible deaths.

    if he lived for ever (as cancer eats away his brain) it would not be long enough to do penance for the wickedness of that man’s black and sinister soul

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    • Replies: @geokat62
    Some trivia about the character whose face graces the cover of that video you linked to.

    His name is Ephialtis. Ever since he betrayed the Greeks at Thermopylae (2,500 years ago), the Greeks substituted his name for the word "nightmare." For example, they will say "I had an Ephialtis last night."

    Perhaps Americans can adopt the same tradition - i.e., rather than saying "I had a nightmare last night" they should start saying "I had a McCain last night."
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  61. pogohere says: • Website
    @Wizard of Oz
    Only to offer a medium sized quibble....

    $200 a barrel oil would be bad for most people in the world but not necessarily for the US since fracking has made a net hydrocarbon exporter. Which American statesman is goung to be inhibited by thinking which proceeds much beyond that?

    Permian Reserves May Be Much Smaller Than You Think

    Posted in The Petroleum Truth Report on July 18, 2017

    We are entering a new age of American energy dominance according to Energy Secretary Rick Perry. President Trump reflected that view in comments he made last week that “…we’ve got underneath us more oil than anybody, and nobody knew it until five years ago.”

    Trump was referring to tight oil production and today, that means the Permian basin.

    Global energy dominance by the United States is somewhere between aspirational and absurd.

    So far in 2017, the U.S. has imported more than 9 million barrels of crude oil per day, and net imports have averaged more than 7.3 million barrels per day. How exactly can the world’s biggest importer of oil become the supplier upon which other countries depend?

    The recently released BP Statistical Review Of World Energy 2017 places the United States 10th in the global ranking of oil reserve holders between Libya and Nigeria (Figure 1). That’s not bad but it hardly puts the U.S. in the same league as energy-dominant countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Iran, Iraq and Russia that have on average 4 times more proved reserves than the U.S. [emphasis added]

    http://www.artberman.com/permian-reserves-may-much-smaller-think/

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thanks. It doesn't really surprise me.
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  62. @Talha
    Hey Mark,

    Excellent suggestions! I was shocked to read that Maryam Rajavi is being touted as anybody that should be anywhere close to power in Iran. The MEK are hated by practically everyone in Iran. It seems the war mongers are not just evil, they seem to be completely mad as well.

    I'm very glad Russia is on the rise and becoming more influential with its alliances in the ME. I think there is no hope from our side to prevent the war against Iran - the entire Neo-con machine wants to plunge into another disaster. But the Russians showed that, if they want, they can be the cog that prevents regime change in that region.

    Here's the thing:
    1) There is no regime change without US boots on the ground (the Arabs are in no shape to do it and Pakistan will not either).
    2) The US would have to move a huge field army into the area - the only viable places are Iraq (not happening - unless we are talking about stable Kurdish controlled area), Kuwait (yeah - let's put them all in one small place), Afghanistan (not happening), Turkey (not happening) and maybe Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
    3) This would telegraph the entire intention and Russia could counter as they did in Syria with AA and air-superiority fighters on Iranian soil.

    None of this seems likely - they most they can do is cowardly launch a bunch of cruise missiles here and there and make more of a mess of things.

    Peace.

    Hi Rurik. Nice to hear from you! I always enjoy your comments. I admire also your goodwill and manners.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Rurik
    heavens Mark!

    what a terrible faux pas

    you correctly responded to Talha, but then you called him 'Rurik', a notoriously intemperate commenter who is occasionally not just ill-mannered, but also (on occasion) ill-willed !

    but then I'm sure the even-tempered, gracious and urbane Talha will of course forgive you, even for this rather egregious blunder

    (btw, I enjoy both of your comments very much indeed)
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  63. Noah Way says:

    Iran has been in US gun sights since at before 1953.

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  64. To HELL with Iran and with the Middle East in general.
    Save the Tomb of Christ from the Heathen, but the rest of the Middle East can sink into primordial ooze for all the difference it would make to the U.S. They had some beautiful historical artifacts in Iraq and Egypt, but since they’ve been destroying them themselves, I guess there’s no point preserving evidence that there USED to be civilizations there.

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    • Replies: @alternatereality
    The profound and tragic irony is that Iran, whose Islamic society is a relatively recent construct built upon an ancient and long-lived Zoroastrian bedrock, is also the ethical bedrock of Jesusian ethics.

    Zoroaster predated the Abrahamics by as much as a millenia; remember: Cyrus, author of the Cylinder that enshrined human rights for all; Cyrus, who liberated Hebrews from Nebuchadnezzar; Cyrus, who supported Yehud financially and politically to return to their beloved Zion (tho 70% of Jews chose to remain in Persia); Cyrus was ZOROASTRIAN before Jews had committed their myths to writing (it's reasonable to speculate that Persians taught Hebrews to record their stories in written form).

    It's also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian; he most certainly would have been exposed to Zoroastrian teachings: the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus shared a very long border with Persia, and fought border wars with the Persians/Parthians: Gibbons observes that it was the Roman Empire's failure to rationally address its conflict with Parthia that was one of three key elements in the decline of the Roman Empire. Some people just don't care to learn from history.

    Genuine Christians (I don't like to use that term; I prefer Jesusians) would NOT distance themselves from Iran --would NOT throw them to the not-so-tender mercies of crazed Christian Zionists and Jews/Israelis: If you believe in the message of Jesus, as Thomas Jefferson did and so many great leaders, then you would support Iran in its efforts to resist the GLOB, the zionists, and the Newt Gingriches.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv-CdTC-StQ
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  65. Rurik says: • Website
    @Mark Green
    Hi Rurik. Nice to hear from you! I always enjoy your comments. I admire also your goodwill and manners.

    Peace.

    heavens Mark!

    what a terrible faux pas

    you correctly responded to Talha, but then you called him ‘Rurik’, a notoriously intemperate commenter who is occasionally not just ill-mannered, but also (on occasion) ill-willed !

    but then I’m sure the even-tempered, gracious and urbane Talha will of course forgive you, even for this rather egregious blunder

    (btw, I enjoy both of your comments very much indeed)

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    • Replies: @Talha
    I love it here at UNZ - never a dull moment eh? That's OK, I've done this kind of thing before. It usually happens if I am about to reply to one person and then switch it up and decide to reply to another. The meat of the reply is cached in the submission box and if you forget to swap up who you were addressing, well...this is what happens.

    Peace.
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  66. Gingrich and the other neocons are all for wars that they do not have to fight, wars that in fact are fought for Zionist Israel and their dual citizens who are in control of America. Israel will be the destruction of America .

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  67. Talha says:
    @Rurik
    heavens Mark!

    what a terrible faux pas

    you correctly responded to Talha, but then you called him 'Rurik', a notoriously intemperate commenter who is occasionally not just ill-mannered, but also (on occasion) ill-willed !

    but then I'm sure the even-tempered, gracious and urbane Talha will of course forgive you, even for this rather egregious blunder

    (btw, I enjoy both of your comments very much indeed)

    I love it here at UNZ – never a dull moment eh? That’s OK, I’ve done this kind of thing before. It usually happens if I am about to reply to one person and then switch it up and decide to reply to another. The meat of the reply is cached in the submission box and if you forget to swap up who you were addressing, well…this is what happens.

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    never a dull moment eh?
     
    it can be immensely amusing at times, eh?

    perhaps Mr. Green was attempting an oblique suggestion of some sort. Don't know.

    or what you said

    Peace
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  68. @WJ
    Buchanan is great but we have been seeing this "war with Iran is imminent" line since at least 2005. A conventional war with Iran would be a massive undertaking requiring troops on the ground to absolutely ensure that any nuke program is eradicated and buckets and buckets of blood. We aren't going to do that. Even with a propaganda campaign similar to the Iraq war, this bird won't fly with many of even the dumbest Americans for long. Not going to happen.

    Buchanan is great but we have been seeing this “war with Iran is imminent” line since at least 2005.

    Check this.:

    Imminent Iran nuclear threat? A timeline of warnings since 1979.
    By Scott Peterson, Staff writer NOVEMBER 8, 2011

    Breathless warnings that the Islamic Republic will soon be at the brink of nuclear capability have been made for decades. Here is a chronicle of predictions.

    http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Middle-East/2011/1108/Imminent-Iran-nuclear-threat-A-timeline-of-warnings-since-1979/Israel-s-one-year-timeframe-disproved-2010-11

    Note.:

    “The U.S. launched a nuclear cooperation program with Iran in 1957 — back when the Shah ruled Iran and the two countries were still friends — and by the mid-70s Iran began developing its nuclear power program. But the U.S. pulled its support when the Shah was overthrown during the Islamic Revolution in 1979.”

    http://www.cnn.com/2013/11/20/world/meast/iran-nuclear-talks-11-things/

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  69. Z-man says:

    Gingrich was good for Trump but his Neocon philosophy should be destroyed. Him, Bolton and that other nut Jew-liani should join McCain soon in hell.
    I commend Tucker Carlson for attacking that other nut Col. Ralph Peters on his show last week. Tucker we salute you!

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    • Replies: @Z-man
    Oh I almost forgot 'Linda' Graham. That 'chicken hawk' deserves a fate as bad as McCain and will be made more satisfying to the likes of yours truly if it hits him at the younger age that he is. I'm still hoping that he gets caught in a homo/pedophile ring. (Sly grin)
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  70. @Joe Wong
    Why can't Elon Musk propose a turnkey job that he will raise fund and build the lithium battery project then collect his investment thru user fee? This way his project will not interfere Australian commitment on windpower generation. In addition why China is at fault by creating jobs and investing in Australia?

    You seem to have completely misunderstood the facts and my point. Chinese investment in Australia is very welcome, with a few small irrelevant quibbles. But it doesn’t make sense for Australia to deny to investores in Australia, including Chinese investors, the ability to use cheap Australian coal to make cheap electricity for aluminium production while exporting cheap coal to China so it can produce cheap electricity which then allows it to undercut Australian aluminium production costs.

    As to Elon Musk I think he may well have proposed just such a deal as you mention though the PR has been about his offering the battery free if it is not built on time.

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  71. Gingrich has always been a puzzle to figure out. I agree with Pat that containment many times is the best policy possible. Actually, I am for normalizing relations with Iran in a piecemeal fashion. I think most people, both in the US and definitely in Iran would greatly benefit. Pat’s article lists who are the main opponents against any normalizing our relations with Iran, so I need not repeat it. In the US, there are many – especially on the conservative side-whose reaction would be: “We can’t do that. They went into our embassy in Tehran and held our people hostage for over a year.” Why can’t we? How long ago was the Iranian hostage crisis? How many years did we screw the Iranian people by supporting a dictatorial government under the Shah? Like the policy of containment, sometimes one has to look at things as “water under the bridge” and let it go. What I don’t understand is back many years ago, was the US apursuing an ostrich-like policy in the waning days of the Shah? They must have known he was ill? They knew that there was no heir to take over the Iranian gov’t. (Prince Reza was only a kid) Did they think that the Shah’s generals would rule? What did they know about Ayatollah Khomeini who was living in France for many years? He seemed to come out of nowhere to most Americans. I am sure there was a dusty crystal ball floating around the State Department or Foggy Bottom that they failed to use. No, Maryam Rajavi is not the answer. From what I understand is that most of her support comes from a small group of Iranians outside Iran. President Trump -please prevent a war with Iran from happening.

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    • Replies: @utu
    Everything we know about Shah and Khomeini we got backwards. Shah regime was deposed because it was doing too well. It had excellent relationship with the US and also with Israel. It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel. The success of Iran did not fit the long term plans for the Middle East. In a long term Iran could not be trusted. That's why Khomeini entered the equation. After the islamic revolution Iran became a pariah state on which sanctions could be imposed because it became perceived as an enemy of the US. They got Iran where they wanted it to be. Iran economy was set back 10-15 years. Nevertheless Iran did not collapse completely. It did not descend into sectarian and tribal chaos and slowly began to rebuild its economy despite of years of sanctions and boycotts, so it started to pose a problem to Israel again.

    Iran was the first state on which the 3 points Israel/CIA doctrine was tested.

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.

     

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  72. @pogohere
    Permian Reserves May Be Much Smaller Than You Think

    Posted in The Petroleum Truth Report on July 18, 2017

    We are entering a new age of American energy dominance according to Energy Secretary Rick Perry. President Trump reflected that view in comments he made last week that “…we’ve got underneath us more oil than anybody, and nobody knew it until five years ago.”

    Trump was referring to tight oil production and today, that means the Permian basin.

    Global energy dominance by the United States is somewhere between aspirational and absurd.

    So far in 2017, the U.S. has imported more than 9 million barrels of crude oil per day, and net imports have averaged more than 7.3 million barrels per day. How exactly can the world’s biggest importer of oil become the supplier upon which other countries depend?

    The recently released BP Statistical Review Of World Energy 2017 places the United States 10th in the global ranking of oil reserve holders between Libya and Nigeria (Figure 1). That’s not bad but it hardly puts the U.S. in the same league as energy-dominant countries like Venezuela, Saudi Arabia, Canada, Iran, Iraq and Russia that have on average 4 times more proved reserves than the U.S. [emphasis added]

    http://www.artberman.com/permian-reserves-may-much-smaller-think/

    Thanks. It doesn’t really surprise me.

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  73. Do you people have access to a Globe, a map to see where Iran is located geographically and how close it is to Russia!? If we go to war with Iran, it will be much worth than what we had in Vietnam in many ways. Iran will become a Russia’s puppet, one that will have access to all the Arab Oil fields. If what Saddam Hussain did to Kuwait’s oil fields was not horrendous, you will witness it in much bigger form in Saudi’s oil fields. Russia will dominate the world oil market overnight and support for American $$ will go to ZERO. That scenario is only part of the whole scenarios that will play in Russia’s advantage.

    Read More
    • Replies: @El Dato
    > Russia

    Russia is not known for having heavy ties to Shia Islam or Persia.

    I don't see where they are coming in here.

    Still...

    Wikipedia has a nice map

    Yeah, "taking out" that fat thing in the middle is gonne be a cakewalk. Yep. Imma waiting for the TV serialization on HBO.

    May well result in Persians washing their boots on the shores of the Mediterranean again, eventually. Who knows.
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  74. MEexpert says:
    @Wizard of Oz
    "Becsuse our Israeli and Saudi masters say so" needs a bit more explanation and justification than just a purported expert's ipse dixit. Of course well directed money talks generally more effectively than anything else. Israel Firsters' money, like the arms industey's, the pharmaceutical industry's, Disney's etc is readily traceable in politicians'behaviour but how do you make - except in imagination or assumption - the same connection for Saudi influence?

    Israel Firsters’ money, like the arms industey’s, the pharmaceutical industry’s, Disney’s etc is readily traceable in politicians’behaviour but how do you make – except in imagination or assumption – the same connection for Saudi influence?

    Saudi Arabia has learned well from its Zionist counterpart to influence the US law makers. She may not have an AIPAC version of a lobby to further its cause but Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars in lobbying efforts to buy influence on Capitol Hill. The Saudis just spent billions of dollars to buy weapons which in turn buys them more influence through the Military-Industrial-Complex. Saudi Arabia also has almost trillion dollars invested in various ventures around the United States. She recently threatened to pull out that investment in case the 9/11 lawsuit bill went through congress. If that were to happen the US economy will tank. Of course the US can always freeze those assets.

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    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    The detail is intereating. I wonder how much Saudi Arabia's recent budgetary problems have affected their influence. After all they are unlikely to be able to match Israel's electoral diatrict by electoral district pressure and one has to wonder how confident they would be of the effect of any threats to disinvest.
    , @Delinquent Snail
    I could be wrong here, but didnt saudi arabia exist before isreal? And im not talking about the official start date in the 40s. Isreal was in the making in the 1890s. But didnt saudi arabia have a treaty with the US in the 1850s. So wouldnt it be isreal that learned from saudi arabia? And then took ut to the next level....
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  75. @Chris Mallory

    But think of what could be done by government with the revenue which would flow from that price, especially while the US corporate tax rate temains where it is. The move to electric powered automobiles, big batteries and more efficient solar power would surely surge in the US.
     
    No thanks to all of it. Especially "what could be done by government".

    Well I almost suggested the US government might reduce debt but I thought you might laugh.

    Cuts in corporate taxation more plausible perhaps and payment of pensions certainly but what’s wrong with increasing the proportion of electric vehicles and speeding up the ultimately (OK very long term) move to near 100 per cent renewable energy?

    Read More
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  76. MEexpert says:
    @Talha
    Hey Mark,

    Excellent suggestions! I was shocked to read that Maryam Rajavi is being touted as anybody that should be anywhere close to power in Iran. The MEK are hated by practically everyone in Iran. It seems the war mongers are not just evil, they seem to be completely mad as well.

    I'm very glad Russia is on the rise and becoming more influential with its alliances in the ME. I think there is no hope from our side to prevent the war against Iran - the entire Neo-con machine wants to plunge into another disaster. But the Russians showed that, if they want, they can be the cog that prevents regime change in that region.

    Here's the thing:
    1) There is no regime change without US boots on the ground (the Arabs are in no shape to do it and Pakistan will not either).
    2) The US would have to move a huge field army into the area - the only viable places are Iraq (not happening - unless we are talking about stable Kurdish controlled area), Kuwait (yeah - let's put them all in one small place), Afghanistan (not happening), Turkey (not happening) and maybe Azerbaijan (possible but unlikely).
    3) This would telegraph the entire intention and Russia could counter as they did in Syria with AA and air-superiority fighters on Iranian soil.

    None of this seems likely - they most they can do is cowardly launch a bunch of cruise missiles here and there and make more of a mess of things.

    Peace.

    Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran is an Azeri.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey MEexpert,

    Did not know this, but it is not surprising. If you can master the disciplines involved in sacred law, your background is irrelevant.

    I love this amusing anecdote about it:
    http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2013/02/13/ibn-abu-layli-on-arabs-most-of-the-jurists-were-non-arabs-to-the-displeasure-of-arab-tribalists/

    Peace.
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  77. @Andrei Martyanov

    Gingrich has a PhD in history
     
    History is a very elusive subject because it can take both a mantle of science and of a propaganda, sometimes simultaneously (depending on POV). I read Newt's historic "interpretations"--he is not really a historian. He is especially no scientist--he is a politician. Well, if you have an issue with Risorgimento, I have huge issues with Newt's WW II views.

    We’d probably agree on Newt’s WW2 views.

    I had gone along with the view of Garibaldi as “liberator,” the lazy victor’s history that Newt cites here. Until I read that page by Moldbug, citing a 19th-century British author who hadn’t gotten the memo on Garibaldi. The latter now appears to be a hitman for the corporatist powers up north in Italy; you’re welcome to refute what’s written there. To me, the big issue is emigration from Southern Italy, practically nil before the Risorgimento, and the largest component of Italian emigration after. Perhaps that is due to lack of opportunity to leave, but I suspect the matter lies more with Northern depredation of the South.

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  78. KenH says:

    Given the level of bellicose and salty rhetoric coming from Nimrata Haley, others within the Trump administration and Trump himself, I’m afraid war with eye-ran is a real possibility. After all, Iran doesn’t worship Jews as the chosen people who should rule the entire world on the account of their chosenness as most zio-cucked American Christians believe and that simply cannot stand.

    And they are impudent enough to think they have national interests which is simply beyond the pale and could jeopardize freedom here at home and lead to another holocaust. I mean sure, they can have interests, but they better not conflict with Israel’s and its exceptional vassal state of America.

    Rural, white America isn’t going to be too happy with Trump if he sends their children to fight yet another pointless war based on pretenses and claims that will eventually be exposed as false and fraudulent shortly after the usual shock and awe campaign gets underway. Then again most Americans are so brainwashed and enstupidated that they could fall for it all over again.

    Will Trump drag us into a “wag the dog” type war so as to save himself from the “Russian Collusion (formerly Russian hacking)” investigation that appears to be designed to blackmail him into adopting the domestic and foreign policy of Jeb! and Hildabeast? Time will tell.

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  79. 1legdrvn says:

    Please pardon my shocked laughter. A journey down historys true path shows the whys of our relationship with not only Iran but the Nations and Peoples’ of this earth. I will attempt to keep this thumbnail brief but my hands are somewhat larger than Twits.
    The “discovery”of these lands were done with singular focus on extractive resources. Still is. All foreign policies are spined and greed ego driven by the lust for extractives, that someone else who lives there “mistakenly” thinks is for their use and enrichment. Wow such dumb, stupid furiengers.
    The US revolted against a king and yet wanted to install George as king. That was the early stage of the american dream. Let’s skip to more recent history with some questions. Anyone remember the 1st world war? The Brit French Dutch ad. naseum, conquest of the middle east? Anyone hear about our roles in the undermining of foreign elections and if not successful our backing of coups that worked?
    Put all that together with the religious doctrine of predestinations stir briskly, half bake it and what the blue blazes you expect to come out of the toaster oven? Nirvana……er……sorry….heaven?
    We get a Twit that would be stopping at king on his way to godhead opening attraction.

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  80. @Rurik

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.
     
    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    I went from loving the US, to despising its role in the world as a Satanic goon of Israel, slaughtering and displacing millions, as it destroys nation after nation, life after innocent life.

    I can't reconcile myself to what America has come to represent in the world today. From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Our government is as close to being a direct representative of the devil as I'm aware of. Murder, torture, tyranny and genocide at home and abroad. It seems there's nothing too wicked or despicable that my government doesn't embrace as policy.

    and no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John - the Bloodstain - McCain.

    so yea, perhaps it's a sin, (and if so, it won't be my only one), but if a man represents true evil, and is directly responsible for the literally incomprehensible suffering of millions upon millions of people, and more to the point, if he had his druthers, would no doubt condemn all of us to torture and misery and death, if that's what it took to augment even more earthly power for this eminently loathsome POS, then so be it. I guess I'll have to answer to the Gods for it, when the time comes, and somehow I rather imagine that in McCain's case, They/He/She/It will quite understand my motivations for feeling the way I do.

    God bless the good and decent people of this planet. And God damn the murderous fiends to eternal hell.

    but not too soon

    Peace

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    Zounds. I have had the same feeling myself. Left and right, I still appreciate most americans, who are decent people who would not rain hellfire from drones on innocent people, and would rightly be horrified if they did so accidentally.

    From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Well, you’re deprogramming. Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines before Disney made a single cartoon or Rockwell drew a single cover for the SEP. Imperialist war supporting the Anglo-American empire has been our game since the 19th century. Ask an Indian from Wounded Knee.

    no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.

    McCain has power and so is able to effect evil. I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran” to the tune of Barbara Ann. Still, having served in the military, he at least put his body on the line, unlike Wolfowitz and many of the armchair generals. It’s tough to decide which viper in the den is most worthy of the Mongoose.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won’t take up arms against it, but I won’t miss it when it collapses.

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    • Replies: @ThreeCranes
    "I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran” to the tune of Barbara Ann."

    Agree.

    It's one thing to blast untermenschen to smithereens; that I can overlook. But to parody Beach Boys' songs is the sign of an utterly depraved character.
    , @Rurik

    Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines
     
    yes, and of course I'm aware of the assorted sins of slavery and genocide of the Amerindians.

    but that was all wayy before my time. And the America I grew up in was just ending it's dubious adventures in Vietnam, and settling down to a time of relative peace. I came of age during the Seventies, with all that amazing music and muscle cars and a general feeling of optimism.

    But then I did sort of start learning about the oil embargo, and what was behind it, and the scourge of Zionism, and then who owned and controlled our media, and then who owed and controlled our banking system, and then who owned and controlled our fecal government...

    but there was still room for some hope, however tenuous. Until 9/11, and then the farce was exploded with the towers, and Frank Zappa's words about the charade of freedom being an illusion came crashing home. The illusion was now over, at least for me, even if it had been over for many others far sooner.

    so now what?

    become cynical and say 'America and Americans are wicked and murderous and always have been' ?

    and leave it at that?

    or say 'hell no!'. We're not murderous assholes, we reject aggressive wars based on lies, and if America was ever a rotten nation of genocidal bastards from day one, well then that's no reason to continue the tradition. No?
    , @Rurik

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won’t take up arms against it, but I won’t miss it when it collapses.
     
    I put it down to the Fed

    Wilson handed the keys of the US Treasury to the greediest and most sinister and war mongering men on the planet

    America is salvageable IMHO, but only if we audit and then End the Fed
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  81. @Rurik

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.
     
    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    I went from loving the US, to despising its role in the world as a Satanic goon of Israel, slaughtering and displacing millions, as it destroys nation after nation, life after innocent life.

    I can't reconcile myself to what America has come to represent in the world today. From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Our government is as close to being a direct representative of the devil as I'm aware of. Murder, torture, tyranny and genocide at home and abroad. It seems there's nothing too wicked or despicable that my government doesn't embrace as policy.

    and no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John - the Bloodstain - McCain.

    so yea, perhaps it's a sin, (and if so, it won't be my only one), but if a man represents true evil, and is directly responsible for the literally incomprehensible suffering of millions upon millions of people, and more to the point, if he had his druthers, would no doubt condemn all of us to torture and misery and death, if that's what it took to augment even more earthly power for this eminently loathsome POS, then so be it. I guess I'll have to answer to the Gods for it, when the time comes, and somehow I rather imagine that in McCain's case, They/He/She/It will quite understand my motivations for feeling the way I do.

    God bless the good and decent people of this planet. And God damn the murderous fiends to eternal hell.

    but not too soon

    Peace

    As to sin, I refer you to this link, #585. Don’t let McCain’s evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.

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    • Replies: @Rurik

    Don’t let McCain’s evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.
     
    I get what you're saying, and I appreciate it. And no, I really don't hate (even him) enough to let me want to invoke the devil.

    But I would love it if every single person of good will would treat these scum as the murderous, treasonous rats that they are. So that being Dick Cheney or Rumsfeld or Newt or McCain became such a burden of collective hatred, that the next one to lick the shekels from Sheldon Adelson's bathroom floor would think twice, knowing how despised and reviled they'd be.

    That's what I'd like to see, and why I want McCain to know that Americans of good will are breathing a collective 'good riddance' as he makes his way off the stage.

    , @Minnesota Mary
    God bless you, Tom. Your are a true Christian.
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  82. anon says: • Disclaimer

    “One of Israel’s leading military historians, Martin van Creveld, was interviewed by Playboy magazine in June 2007:

    Playboy: Can the World live with a nuclear Iran?

    Van Creveld: The U.S. has lived with a nuclear Soviet Union and a nuclear China, so why not a nuclear Iran? I’ve researched how the U.S. opposed nuclear proliferation in the past, and each time a country was about to proliferate, the U.S. expressed its opposition in terms of why this other country was very dangerous and didn’t deserve to have nuclear weapons.

    “Americans believe they’re the only people who deserve to have nuclear weapons, because they are good and democratic and they like Mother and apple pie and the flag. But Americans are the only ones who have used them. …

    “We are in no danger at all of having an Iranian nuclear weapon dropped on us. We cannot say so too openly, however, because we have a history of using any threat in order to get weapons … thanks to the Iranian threat, we are getting weapons from the U.S. and Germany.”

    https://consortiumnews.com/2012/02/04/what-israel-really-fears-about-iran/?print=print

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  83. anon says: • Disclaimer

    On Jan. 11, the Washington Post reported: “In addition to influencing Iranian leaders directly, [a US intelligence official] says another option here is that [sanctions] will create hate and discontent at the street level so that the Iranian leaders realize that they need to change their ways.”

    How utterly charming, these tactics and goals for the 21st Century by the leader of “The Free World”. (Is that expression still used?)

    The neo-conservative thinking (and Barack Obama can be regarded as often being a fellow traveler of such) is even more charming than that. Listen to Danielle Pletka, vice president for foreign and defense policy studies at America’s most prominent neo-con think tank, American Enterprise Institute:

    “The biggest problem for the United States is not Iran getting a nuclear weapon and testing it, it’s Iran getting a nuclear weapon and not using it. Because the second that they have one and they don’t do anything bad, all of the naysayers are going to come back and say, ‘See, we told you Iran is a responsible power. We told you Iran wasn’t getting nuclear weapons in order to use them immediately.’ … And they will eventually define Iran with nuclear weapons as not a problem.” [Video of Pletka making these remarks]

    https://consortiumnews.com/2012/02/04/what-israel-really-fears-about-iran/?print=print

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  84. Talha says:
    @MEexpert
    Grand Ayatollah Ali Khamenei of Iran is an Azeri.

    Hey MEexpert,

    Did not know this, but it is not surprising. If you can master the disciplines involved in sacred law, your background is irrelevant.

    I love this amusing anecdote about it:

    http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2013/02/13/ibn-abu-layli-on-arabs-most-of-the-jurists-were-non-arabs-to-the-displeasure-of-arab-tribalists/

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert
    It is very interesting and revealing. Even today most of the famous jurists are non Arabs. Three of the top five Grand Ayatollahs in Iraq are non Arabs. Grand Ayatollah Syed Ali Sistani is from Iran, the second is from Afghanistan and the other is from Pakistan.
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  85. @Rurik

    Let’s just be happy when he can no longer get other people killed.
     
    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.

    I went from loving the US, to despising its role in the world as a Satanic goon of Israel, slaughtering and displacing millions, as it destroys nation after nation, life after innocent life.

    I can't reconcile myself to what America has come to represent in the world today. From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.

    Our government is as close to being a direct representative of the devil as I'm aware of. Murder, torture, tyranny and genocide at home and abroad. It seems there's nothing too wicked or despicable that my government doesn't embrace as policy.

    and no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John - the Bloodstain - McCain.

    so yea, perhaps it's a sin, (and if so, it won't be my only one), but if a man represents true evil, and is directly responsible for the literally incomprehensible suffering of millions upon millions of people, and more to the point, if he had his druthers, would no doubt condemn all of us to torture and misery and death, if that's what it took to augment even more earthly power for this eminently loathsome POS, then so be it. I guess I'll have to answer to the Gods for it, when the time comes, and somehow I rather imagine that in McCain's case, They/He/She/It will quite understand my motivations for feeling the way I do.

    God bless the good and decent people of this planet. And God damn the murderous fiends to eternal hell.

    but not too soon

    Peace

    I believe I know how you feel. sounds as if we’ve probably traveled many of the same roads.

    The whole system is utterly loathsome.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    I suspect so JS,

    yep
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  86. Rurik says: • Website
    @Talha
    I love it here at UNZ - never a dull moment eh? That's OK, I've done this kind of thing before. It usually happens if I am about to reply to one person and then switch it up and decide to reply to another. The meat of the reply is cached in the submission box and if you forget to swap up who you were addressing, well...this is what happens.

    Peace.

    never a dull moment eh?

    it can be immensely amusing at times, eh?

    perhaps Mr. Green was attempting an oblique suggestion of some sort. Don’t know.

    or what you said

    Peace

    Read More
    • Replies: @Mark Green
    Hi Rurik. Hi Tahla. OOPS! Yes, that was a faux pas. Anyway, I want you both to know that I enjoy your comments and I'm glad that of you contribute regularly to The Unz Review. Your participation adds a lot. Peace.
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  87. utu says:
    @Brooklyn Dave
    Gingrich has always been a puzzle to figure out. I agree with Pat that containment many times is the best policy possible. Actually, I am for normalizing relations with Iran in a piecemeal fashion. I think most people, both in the US and definitely in Iran would greatly benefit. Pat's article lists who are the main opponents against any normalizing our relations with Iran, so I need not repeat it. In the US, there are many - especially on the conservative side-whose reaction would be: "We can't do that. They went into our embassy in Tehran and held our people hostage for over a year." Why can't we? How long ago was the Iranian hostage crisis? How many years did we screw the Iranian people by supporting a dictatorial government under the Shah? Like the policy of containment, sometimes one has to look at things as "water under the bridge" and let it go. What I don't understand is back many years ago, was the US apursuing an ostrich-like policy in the waning days of the Shah? They must have known he was ill? They knew that there was no heir to take over the Iranian gov't. (Prince Reza was only a kid) Did they think that the Shah's generals would rule? What did they know about Ayatollah Khomeini who was living in France for many years? He seemed to come out of nowhere to most Americans. I am sure there was a dusty crystal ball floating around the State Department or Foggy Bottom that they failed to use. No, Maryam Rajavi is not the answer. From what I understand is that most of her support comes from a small group of Iranians outside Iran. President Trump -please prevent a war with Iran from happening.

    Everything we know about Shah and Khomeini we got backwards. Shah regime was deposed because it was doing too well. It had excellent relationship with the US and also with Israel. It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel. The success of Iran did not fit the long term plans for the Middle East. In a long term Iran could not be trusted. That’s why Khomeini entered the equation. After the islamic revolution Iran became a pariah state on which sanctions could be imposed because it became perceived as an enemy of the US. They got Iran where they wanted it to be. Iran economy was set back 10-15 years. Nevertheless Iran did not collapse completely. It did not descend into sectarian and tribal chaos and slowly began to rebuild its economy despite of years of sanctions and boycotts, so it started to pose a problem to Israel again.

    Iran was the first state on which the 3 points Israel/CIA doctrine was tested.

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel.
     
    Dude, just to educate yourself a bit on Iran's issue--try to start with this as a primer--really good read:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060113014/ref=x_gr_w_bb_sout?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_w_bb_sout-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060113014&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

    I think you may rethink your claim about Khomeini entering the equation, especially against the background of Pahlavi being viewed as an American asset since Mossadekh's overthrow. I am also damn sure that CIA was really against building the F-14 factory and transferring to Iran serious sign-int capability (built in Talysh mountains overlooking Astara), LOL. Sure, US was really interested in "weakening" its most important asset in Soviet Union's underbelly which eventually made the creation of STAVKA of Southern Direction (Command) and separate Air Defense Army being instituted with HQs in Baku. Militant ignorance is no substitute for knowledge, if you know what I mean, wink-wink. Also, get acquainted with Baghdad Pact (CENTO).

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  88. @TomSchmidt

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.
     
    Zounds. I have had the same feeling myself. Left and right, I still appreciate most americans, who are decent people who would not rain hellfire from drones on innocent people, and would rightly be horrified if they did so accidentally.

    From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.
     
    Well, you're deprogramming. Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines before Disney made a single cartoon or Rockwell drew a single cover for the SEP. Imperialist war supporting the Anglo-American empire has been our game since the 19th century. Ask an Indian from Wounded Knee.

    no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.
     
    McCain has power and so is able to effect evil. I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of Barbara Ann. Still, having served in the military, he at least put his body on the line, unlike Wolfowitz and many of the armchair generals. It's tough to decide which viper in the den is most worthy of the Mongoose.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won't take up arms against it, but I won't miss it when it collapses.

    “I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered “Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran” to the tune of Barbara Ann.”

    Agree.

    It’s one thing to blast untermenschen to smithereens; that I can overlook. But to parody Beach Boys’ songs is the sign of an utterly depraved character.

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    • Agree: TomSchmidt
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  89. Z-man says:
    @Z-man
    Gingrich was good for Trump but his Neocon philosophy should be destroyed. Him, Bolton and that other nut Jew-liani should join McCain soon in hell.
    I commend Tucker Carlson for attacking that other nut Col. Ralph Peters on his show last week. Tucker we salute you!

    Oh I almost forgot ‘Linda’ Graham. That ‘chicken hawk’ deserves a fate as bad as McCain and will be made more satisfying to the likes of yours truly if it hits him at the younger age that he is. I’m still hoping that he gets caught in a homo/pedophile ring. (Sly grin)

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  90. @Rurik

    never a dull moment eh?
     
    it can be immensely amusing at times, eh?

    perhaps Mr. Green was attempting an oblique suggestion of some sort. Don't know.

    or what you said

    Peace

    Hi Rurik. Hi Tahla. OOPS! Yes, that was a faux pas. Anyway, I want you both to know that I enjoy your comments and I’m glad that of you contribute regularly to The Unz Review. Your participation adds a lot. Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    thanks Mark,

    You're one of the most eloquent and profound writers here and your efforts are very much appreciated.
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  91. @utu
    Everything we know about Shah and Khomeini we got backwards. Shah regime was deposed because it was doing too well. It had excellent relationship with the US and also with Israel. It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel. The success of Iran did not fit the long term plans for the Middle East. In a long term Iran could not be trusted. That's why Khomeini entered the equation. After the islamic revolution Iran became a pariah state on which sanctions could be imposed because it became perceived as an enemy of the US. They got Iran where they wanted it to be. Iran economy was set back 10-15 years. Nevertheless Iran did not collapse completely. It did not descend into sectarian and tribal chaos and slowly began to rebuild its economy despite of years of sanctions and boycotts, so it started to pose a problem to Israel again.

    Iran was the first state on which the 3 points Israel/CIA doctrine was tested.

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.

     

    It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel.

    Dude, just to educate yourself a bit on Iran’s issue–try to start with this as a primer–really good read:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060113014/ref=x_gr_w_bb_sout?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_w_bb_sout-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060113014&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

    I think you may rethink your claim about Khomeini entering the equation, especially against the background of Pahlavi being viewed as an American asset since Mossadekh’s overthrow. I am also damn sure that CIA was really against building the F-14 factory and transferring to Iran serious sign-int capability (built in Talysh mountains overlooking Astara), LOL. Sure, US was really interested in “weakening” its most important asset in Soviet Union’s underbelly which eventually made the creation of STAVKA of Southern Direction (Command) and separate Air Defense Army being instituted with HQs in Baku. Militant ignorance is no substitute for knowledge, if you know what I mean, wink-wink. Also, get acquainted with Baghdad Pact (CENTO).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey Andrei,

    I took a class on Iran history at UCLA. It was taught by a professor expatriate Iranian who was no friend of the Ayatollahs and the class was full of rich Persians from Irangeles (https://www.amazon.com/Irangeles-Iranians-Angeles-Ron-Kelley/dp/0520080092). Even then he did not skew the record and was quite up front with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite). The revolution may not have gone exactly the way all parties wanted it to - but that's a different subject.

    Also, the Shah was homies with our other homies, the Saudis:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=shah+pahlavi+king+of+saudi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzu_brv5vVAhUhxlQKHdSUB-YQ_AUIBygC&biw=1344&bih=774

    Peace.
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  92. @anonymous
    People like Gingrich and Bolton are dangerously absurd. The current government of Iran has since it's inception been sinking very deep roots into it's society and has the support of most of it's population. It can't be toppled like some banana republic tinpot dictatorship. Even back in it's very early days during it's war with Iraq it was able to rally and prevail. Like it or not, call it a dictatorship if one likes, it's not going anywhere. What we have here is the substitution of fantasy for rational policy. Blowback and disaster would be the result of any rash moves on the part of the US. Giving worthless speeches for big money must be the new legal payoff scheme these days.

    Gingrich’s wife Calista (don’t remember if she is #2 or #3; do recall that Newt delivered divorce papers to #1 while she was in hospital after surgery) has tremendous Senate support for post of US ambassador to Vatican. Trump appointed her.

    Don’t look to Trump to counter Newt’s warmongering.

    Don’t look to Pope Francis to counter US warmongering. He’s been compromised from the get-go.

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  93. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.
     
    Zounds. I have had the same feeling myself. Left and right, I still appreciate most americans, who are decent people who would not rain hellfire from drones on innocent people, and would rightly be horrified if they did so accidentally.

    From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.
     
    Well, you're deprogramming. Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines before Disney made a single cartoon or Rockwell drew a single cover for the SEP. Imperialist war supporting the Anglo-American empire has been our game since the 19th century. Ask an Indian from Wounded Knee.

    no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.
     
    McCain has power and so is able to effect evil. I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of Barbara Ann. Still, having served in the military, he at least put his body on the line, unlike Wolfowitz and many of the armchair generals. It's tough to decide which viper in the den is most worthy of the Mongoose.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won't take up arms against it, but I won't miss it when it collapses.

    Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines

    yes, and of course I’m aware of the assorted sins of slavery and genocide of the Amerindians.

    but that was all wayy before my time. And the America I grew up in was just ending it’s dubious adventures in Vietnam, and settling down to a time of relative peace. I came of age during the Seventies, with all that amazing music and muscle cars and a general feeling of optimism.

    But then I did sort of start learning about the oil embargo, and what was behind it, and the scourge of Zionism, and then who owned and controlled our media, and then who owed and controlled our banking system, and then who owned and controlled our fecal government…

    but there was still room for some hope, however tenuous. Until 9/11, and then the farce was exploded with the towers, and Frank Zappa’s words about the charade of freedom being an illusion came crashing home. The illusion was now over, at least for me, even if it had been over for many others far sooner.

    so now what?

    become cynical and say ‘America and Americans are wicked and murderous and always have been’ ?

    and leave it at that?

    or say ‘hell no!’. We’re not murderous assholes, we reject aggressive wars based on lies, and if America was ever a rotten nation of genocidal bastards from day one, well then that’s no reason to continue the tradition. No?

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  94. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt
    As to sin, I refer you to this link, #585. Don't let McCain's evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.

    Don’t let McCain’s evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.

    I get what you’re saying, and I appreciate it. And no, I really don’t hate (even him) enough to let me want to invoke the devil.

    But I would love it if every single person of good will would treat these scum as the murderous, treasonous rats that they are. So that being Dick Cheney or Rumsfeld or Newt or McCain became such a burden of collective hatred, that the next one to lick the shekels from Sheldon Adelson’s bathroom floor would think twice, knowing how despised and reviled they’d be.

    That’s what I’d like to see, and why I want McCain to know that Americans of good will are breathing a collective ‘good riddance’ as he makes his way off the stage.

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    • Agree: edNels
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  95. An American or Israeli war against Iran is out of the question without the perpetrators fully contemplating the use of nuclear weapons. A military conflict with Iran without the ultimate prospect and threat of using nuclear weapons would leave the lever of escalation in the hands of the Iranian forces: an utterly unthinkable and intolerable scenario for the American side, which has to plan for this war.
    I have never seen any official remarks or even unofficial statements of policy, from the Iranian government or military, on how their country would react to a nuclear attack.
    This is very puzzling given all the military threats – with the talk of all options being on the table – Iran has faced for decades.

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  96. @Rurik

    demise is very slow and very painful…….
     
    I consider myself a compassionate person, and I'd like to think I wish no one harm, even people who've done me or mine wrong, so long as they don't do it again.

    but when it comes to John McBloodstain, it would surely be wonderful news for every living thing on this planet for him to suffer unimaginably, a tiny, tiny fraction of the miseries that this singularly heinous individual has caused others to suffer so horribly.

    a kind of reverse crucifixion, where for once it's the evil and wicked that die slowly, rather than the righteous and humble.

    the good people of the earth should actually celebrate with joyful hearts the demise of this execrable man, and all that he represents.

    Everything being written about Gingrich and the other whores of Zion, are ten times worse when it comes to the Bloodstain.

    let's all laugh and smile and greet each other with a little more optimism and happiness in our hearts that God has finally seen fit to send this particularly rancid soul to rot in hell for eternity, where he surely belongs. But don't send him too soon oh Lord, let him linger just a while...

    ;)

    An atheist such as I, does not hesitate to condemn Tokyo Rose to agonizing and prolonged torture and eternal damnation (!) to feel even a fraction of the grief and misery he has inflicted on the people of the Middle East in groveling servitude to his Israeli masters. May he fry in the fires of hell that I attach no belief to, but perhaps even after death a mind persists that can suffer the anguish of karmic vengeance.

    While there is no god, there is death, and the possibility of excruciating pain verging on madness. I wish this on John McCain a thousand fold. I also wish this on all the neocons such as John Bolton and the Zionist cabal who have wreaked such untold havoc on this world. Our brothers have shed their blood in foreign lands for a fight that was not theirs, and they continue to do so. Our treasure has been stolen in large quantities while our citizens live homeless and unemployed in the streets. Our reputation has been tarnished and our image of ourselves as a righteous nation of laws and moral nobility has been shattered and our faces rubbed in it each day.

    And an orphan child weeps in Yemen, Libya, Palestine, Iraq, Syria. They may yet forgive John McCain, but you are a better man than I, Gunga Din.

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    • Agree: Rurik
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  97. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt

    I grew up believing in America, indeed loving it. I still love the people, but the leadership has become so demonically evil, that it staggers my comprehension of the world. It creates doubt in my deeply held views of mankind as worthy of grace.
     
    Zounds. I have had the same feeling myself. Left and right, I still appreciate most americans, who are decent people who would not rain hellfire from drones on innocent people, and would rightly be horrified if they did so accidentally.

    From baseball and apple pie and Norman Rockwell and the Disney of my childhood, to permanent torture camps and terror drones patrolling the skies of far away lands, slaughtering and maiming and displacing and imposing hell on earth for nations and people that have done us no harm.
     
    Well, you're deprogramming. Look at how many we killed in the Phillippines before Disney made a single cartoon or Rockwell drew a single cover for the SEP. Imperialist war supporting the Anglo-American empire has been our game since the 19th century. Ask an Indian from Wounded Knee.

    no other person on this planet represents all of the rot and evil that my government has become and perpetrates in the world more than John – the Bloodstain – McCain.
     
    McCain has power and so is able to effect evil. I was glad to see him lose in 2008 when he uttered "Bomb, bomb, bomb, bomb bomb Iran" to the tune of Barbara Ann. Still, having served in the military, he at least put his body on the line, unlike Wolfowitz and many of the armchair generals. It's tough to decide which viper in the den is most worthy of the Mongoose.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won't take up arms against it, but I won't miss it when it collapses.

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won’t take up arms against it, but I won’t miss it when it collapses.

    I put it down to the Fed

    Wilson handed the keys of the US Treasury to the greediest and most sinister and war mongering men on the planet

    America is salvageable IMHO, but only if we audit and then End the Fed

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    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    I used to. David Stockman's book The Great Deformation went some into the thinking of CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us "investment" banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed. Hard to tell with crony capitalists.

    The big flaw was that the Fed was vulnerable to political takeover, obviously much more so than a free banking system. It was the Wall Street bond salesman, FDR, who twisted the Fed into the organization that would bow and scrape towards his centralizing administration. BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression. BErnanke was wrong; Stockman's overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.
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  98. Rurik says: • Website
    @jacques sheete
    I believe I know how you feel. sounds as if we've probably traveled many of the same roads.

    The whole system is utterly loathsome.

    I suspect so JS,

    yep

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  99. @Rosamond Vincy
    To HELL with Iran and with the Middle East in general.
    Save the Tomb of Christ from the Heathen, but the rest of the Middle East can sink into primordial ooze for all the difference it would make to the U.S. They had some beautiful historical artifacts in Iraq and Egypt, but since they've been destroying them themselves, I guess there's no point preserving evidence that there USED to be civilizations there.

    The profound and tragic irony is that Iran, whose Islamic society is a relatively recent construct built upon an ancient and long-lived Zoroastrian bedrock, is also the ethical bedrock of Jesusian ethics.

    Zoroaster predated the Abrahamics by as much as a millenia; remember: Cyrus, author of the Cylinder that enshrined human rights for all; Cyrus, who liberated Hebrews from Nebuchadnezzar; Cyrus, who supported Yehud financially and politically to return to their beloved Zion (tho 70% of Jews chose to remain in Persia); Cyrus was ZOROASTRIAN before Jews had committed their myths to writing (it’s reasonable to speculate that Persians taught Hebrews to record their stories in written form).

    It’s also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian; he most certainly would have been exposed to Zoroastrian teachings: the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus shared a very long border with Persia, and fought border wars with the Persians/Parthians: Gibbons observes that it was the Roman Empire’s failure to rationally address its conflict with Parthia that was one of three key elements in the decline of the Roman Empire. Some people just don’t care to learn from history.

    Genuine Christians (I don’t like to use that term; I prefer Jesusians) would NOT distance themselves from Iran –would NOT throw them to the not-so-tender mercies of crazed Christian Zionists and Jews/Israelis: If you believe in the message of Jesus, as Thomas Jefferson did and so many great leaders, then you would support Iran in its efforts to resist the GLOB, the zionists, and the Newt Gingriches.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    "It’s also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian"

    Jesus was a well-known Galilean, and was thoroughly mocked by Judeans who considered Galilee the local equivalent of West Virginia.
    Jesus was circumcised at 8 days in the Presentation at the Temple.
    The sages at the Temple were astonished at his learning when he was 12--probably his Bar Mitzvah. His family had brought him to Jerusalem for Passover.
    Jesus was criticized for healing people on the Sabbath. His disciples were criticized for picking grain out of the fields to eat on the Sabbath. Why would anyone care what a bunch of Zoroastrians did or didn't do on a Jewish Sabbath?
    The Last Supper was a ritual Passover meal.
    The earliest Christians: his Mother, elderly Temple witnesses Simeon and Anna, the apostles, former enemy St. Paul, --had all been brought up Jewish. The Messiah had been predicted in the Old Testament, and Jesus scolded supposed "experts" for not recognizing the signs when they saw Him.

    The fact that Judas, Annas, and Caiaphas (a man detested even by his own congregation--there are records) were also Jewish does not change the fact that Jesus was the fulfillment of ancient Jewish prophecies, and His genealogy in Matthew mentions many important Old Testament figures. The fact that present-day Israel is run by the same kind of folks who run police-states in South America also does not change the facts.

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible. Some Nazis tried to present Jesus as an Aryan, claiming that His miraculous conception meant he was not genetically descended from Mary, but because He had too many turn-the-other-cheek moments to suit them, and because they could not make similar arguments about notable former Pharisee St. Paul, they eventually gave up and tried to restore worship of Woden.

    "....each ‘historical Jesus’ is unhistorical. The documents say what they say and cannot be added to; each new ‘historical Jesus’ therefore has to be got out of them by suppression at one point and exaggeration at another, and by that sort of guessing (brilliant is the adjective we teach humans to apply to it) on which no one would risk ten shillings in ordinary life, but which is enough to produce a crop of new Napoleons, new Shakespeares, and new Swifts, in every publisher’s autumn list." - CS Lewis
     
    Should we side with either Iran or Israel? Probably not--let them hash it out. And turn a blind eye when they both do shady things in their conflicts, which they will. Don't get OUR troops involved.
    But don't drag Jesus into it. His kingdom is not of this world.
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  100. Talha says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    It could not be touched it was getting strong and thus potentially dangerous to Israel.
     
    Dude, just to educate yourself a bit on Iran's issue--try to start with this as a primer--really good read:

    https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060113014/ref=x_gr_w_bb_sout?ie=UTF8&tag=x_gr_w_bb_sout-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=0060113014&SubscriptionId=1MGPYB6YW3HWK55XCGG2

    I think you may rethink your claim about Khomeini entering the equation, especially against the background of Pahlavi being viewed as an American asset since Mossadekh's overthrow. I am also damn sure that CIA was really against building the F-14 factory and transferring to Iran serious sign-int capability (built in Talysh mountains overlooking Astara), LOL. Sure, US was really interested in "weakening" its most important asset in Soviet Union's underbelly which eventually made the creation of STAVKA of Southern Direction (Command) and separate Air Defense Army being instituted with HQs in Baku. Militant ignorance is no substitute for knowledge, if you know what I mean, wink-wink. Also, get acquainted with Baghdad Pact (CENTO).

    Hey Andrei,

    I took a class on Iran history at UCLA. It was taught by a professor expatriate Iranian who was no friend of the Ayatollahs and the class was full of rich Persians from Irangeles (https://www.amazon.com/Irangeles-Iranians-Angeles-Ron-Kelley/dp/0520080092). Even then he did not skew the record and was quite up front with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite). The revolution may not have gone exactly the way all parties wanted it to – but that’s a different subject.

    Also, the Shah was homies with our other homies, the Saudis:

    https://www.google.com/search?q=shah+pahlavi+king+of+saudi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzu_brv5vVAhUhxlQKHdSUB-YQ_AUIBygC&biw=1344&bih=774

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @Andrei Martyanov

    with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite).
     
    There you go, but what it takes to impress ignorant "westerners" is to show them some hot Iranian (some of them are actually drop dead gorgeous) girls from shah's times in short skirts (same as showing the same for Afghanistan) and they think that everything was peachy. You know, like Henry Kissinger dining in the glorious ruins of Persepolis (arranged by shah), while half of Iran was dying from famine. BTW, Zeynab Khanlarova was doing Iranian tours even in 1970s.
    , @Anon
    I know very nearly nothing about Iran and Iranians, so take what I say with a grain of salt; but everyone forms an opinion of "national opinion" or the like based on his own social circle, and there were certainly social circles in Persia equally hostile to the Shah and to the ayatollic(?) regime that took over after the revolution. It's also my impression of history in general that usually, especially in a substantially non-democratic state, the ruling authority is neither hated nor loved by the majority of the people, who are substantially indifferent to politics. Of course there are exceptions and Iran may very well have been one.

    Did SAVAK interfere much in the lives of the non-politically-active?
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  101. Rurik says: • Website
    @Mark Green
    Hi Rurik. Hi Tahla. OOPS! Yes, that was a faux pas. Anyway, I want you both to know that I enjoy your comments and I'm glad that of you contribute regularly to The Unz Review. Your participation adds a lot. Peace.

    thanks Mark,

    You’re one of the most eloquent and profound writers here and your efforts are very much appreciated.

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  102. Z-man says:

    The only country that will use the nuclear option, besides maybe that looney toon in Pyongyang, is The Zionist Entity. And they will use it when they are cornered.

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  103. @MEexpert

    Israel Firsters’ money, like the arms industey’s, the pharmaceutical industry’s, Disney’s etc is readily traceable in politicians’behaviour but how do you make – except in imagination or assumption – the same connection for Saudi influence?
     
    Saudi Arabia has learned well from its Zionist counterpart to influence the US law makers. She may not have an AIPAC version of a lobby to further its cause but Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars in lobbying efforts to buy influence on Capitol Hill. The Saudis just spent billions of dollars to buy weapons which in turn buys them more influence through the Military-Industrial-Complex. Saudi Arabia also has almost trillion dollars invested in various ventures around the United States. She recently threatened to pull out that investment in case the 9/11 lawsuit bill went through congress. If that were to happen the US economy will tank. Of course the US can always freeze those assets.

    The detail is intereating. I wonder how much Saudi Arabia’s recent budgetary problems have affected their influence. After all they are unlikely to be able to match Israel’s electoral diatrict by electoral district pressure and one has to wonder how confident they would be of the effect of any threats to disinvest.

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  104. @Talha
    Hey Andrei,

    I took a class on Iran history at UCLA. It was taught by a professor expatriate Iranian who was no friend of the Ayatollahs and the class was full of rich Persians from Irangeles (https://www.amazon.com/Irangeles-Iranians-Angeles-Ron-Kelley/dp/0520080092). Even then he did not skew the record and was quite up front with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite). The revolution may not have gone exactly the way all parties wanted it to - but that's a different subject.

    Also, the Shah was homies with our other homies, the Saudis:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=shah+pahlavi+king+of+saudi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzu_brv5vVAhUhxlQKHdSUB-YQ_AUIBygC&biw=1344&bih=774

    Peace.

    with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite).

    There you go, but what it takes to impress ignorant “westerners” is to show them some hot Iranian (some of them are actually drop dead gorgeous) girls from shah’s times in short skirts (same as showing the same for Afghanistan) and they think that everything was peachy. You know, like Henry Kissinger dining in the glorious ruins of Persepolis (arranged by shah), while half of Iran was dying from famine. BTW, Zeynab Khanlarova was doing Iranian tours even in 1970s.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British–Ruhollah_Khomeini_conspiracy_theory
    A number of observers, including the Shah, have written of rumours and allegations that the government of the United Kingdom has secretly supported "mullahs" (Shia clerics) in recent Iranian history, and in particular the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in his successful overthrow of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. It is alleged that the 1979 Iranian revolution is a Western response to the Pahlavi's White revolution which was intended to bring benefits to Iran and its people, but was unfavorable to the landlords, clergy and the United States and UK that feared that Iran will become independent, thus hampering their further involvement.[1] Khomeini rejected the charges,[2] claiming it was the Shah who was a Western "agent" who had prevented the establishment of Islamic government in Iran until the revolution.[3]
     
    Israel is not mentioned here in this theory but one can imagine why.

    US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution

    Two Weeks in January: America's secret engagement with Khomeini
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160

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  105. geokat62 says:
    @Rurik

    who view war and death so cavalierly
     
    if only he were cavalier about it.

    rather he is feverishly relentless in his pursuit of it

    there's nothing that John - the Bloodstain - McCain would like better than for American boy and girls to get slaughtered in a world war with Iran and Russia and Syria and Lebanon and all nations and all places anywhere on the planet that looked at Israel cross eyed.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vrPY15CYqc

    here I imagine the Spartan king to represent the ghost of the millions and millions of men, women and children that John McCain's traitorous ego and lust for earthy power has led to their horrible deaths.

    if he lived for ever (as cancer eats away his brain) it would not be long enough to do penance for the wickedness of that man's black and sinister soul

    Some trivia about the character whose face graces the cover of that video you linked to.

    His name is Ephialtis. Ever since he betrayed the Greeks at Thermopylae (2,500 years ago), the Greeks substituted his name for the word “nightmare.” For example, they will say “I had an Ephialtis last night.”

    Perhaps Americans can adopt the same tradition – i.e., rather than saying “I had a nightmare last night” they should start saying “I had a McCain last night.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    fascinating Geo

    thanks for that

    http://durand-digitalgallery.com/2011/photography/sculpture/pergamon-altar/otus-or-ephialtes-2/

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  106. @Rurik

    You come rapidly to the conclusion that the collapse of the US government will be the greatest force for peace in the world. I won’t take up arms against it, but I won’t miss it when it collapses.
     
    I put it down to the Fed

    Wilson handed the keys of the US Treasury to the greediest and most sinister and war mongering men on the planet

    America is salvageable IMHO, but only if we audit and then End the Fed

    I used to. David Stockman’s book The Great Deformation went some into the thinking of CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us “investment” banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed. Hard to tell with crony capitalists.

    The big flaw was that the Fed was vulnerable to political takeover, obviously much more so than a free banking system. It was the Wall Street bond salesman, FDR, who twisted the Fed into the organization that would bow and scrape towards his centralizing administration. BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression. BErnanke was wrong; Stockman’s overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik

    CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal,
     
    I just wrote a post to Geo about a catastrophic traitor to his nation and its people

    Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us “investment” banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed
     
    Clinton was a stooge. The brains behind the repeal was Robert Rubin, with his Igor Lawrence Summers. Goldman Sachs boyz. Part of the Satanic trinity that is Goldman, The Treasury and the Fed.

    BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression.
     

    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

    ~ T. Jefferson


    Stockman’s overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.
     
    interesting..

    my view is that the Federal Reserve System is a Jewish weapon to loot the people of the planet and subvert our own governments and turn them into enemies of our respective nations and peoples. By controlling the money supply and the interest rates and handing out hundreds of billions to their fellow travelers, they corrupt the governments of the West (and beyond) and arrange for things to work in their favor.

    It's why they own and/or control everything of consequence, from our federal politicians to the banks and courts and universities and Hollywood and our msm and publishing houses and Madison Ave to running Wall Street where a lion's share of the Quantitative Easing (trillions in printed/counterfeited Federal Reserve Notes/dollars) are insinuated into our money supply, enriching the Jews on Wall Street and simultaneously looting the value over everyone else's savings.

    It is control of the Fed that has given them the power to control the US government absolutely, to the point that they have us fighting eternal wars for Israel, as we get debt and body bags in return and the world's well-earned hatred for our efforts. It's why the entire Western world is committing suicide with the 'invade the world / invite the world' mass suicidal insanity.

    These evils of destroying nation after nation (that Israel considers inconvenient) to importing millions upon millions of congenitally hostile peoples into our lands are not part of a Western people's agenda. Hardly. They are the work of Jews who hate Western Civilization down to the marrow of their bones. And they will not ever relent. Ever. Until the power of the Fed is removed from their Satanic grip.

    That's the way I see things, and the basis of our collective challenges.

    (obviously not all Jews are in league with these demons and they'd get nowhere fast were it not for willing and eager Gentile traitors/Kapos like John McBloodstain)

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  107. MEexpert says:
    @Talha
    Hey MEexpert,

    Did not know this, but it is not surprising. If you can master the disciplines involved in sacred law, your background is irrelevant.

    I love this amusing anecdote about it:
    http://dailyhadith.abuaminaelias.com/2013/02/13/ibn-abu-layli-on-arabs-most-of-the-jurists-were-non-arabs-to-the-displeasure-of-arab-tribalists/

    Peace.

    It is very interesting and revealing. Even today most of the famous jurists are non Arabs. Three of the top five Grand Ayatollahs in Iraq are non Arabs. Grand Ayatollah Syed Ali Sistani is from Iran, the second is from Afghanistan and the other is from Pakistan.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Did not know that - wow - now that's a bit surprising. I do know Pakistan has one or two marjas of its own, but had no idea any had reached such a degree to be accepted in the heartland of Iraq's Shiah population.

    And what is so surprising in that list of names in that anecdote is the fact that we are talking about the second and third generation not four or five centuries down the road as one might expect. Non-Arabs picked up the tradition fairly quickly.

    Peace.
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  108. utu says:
    @Andrei Martyanov

    with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite).
     
    There you go, but what it takes to impress ignorant "westerners" is to show them some hot Iranian (some of them are actually drop dead gorgeous) girls from shah's times in short skirts (same as showing the same for Afghanistan) and they think that everything was peachy. You know, like Henry Kissinger dining in the glorious ruins of Persepolis (arranged by shah), while half of Iran was dying from famine. BTW, Zeynab Khanlarova was doing Iranian tours even in 1970s.

    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British–Ruhollah_Khomeini_conspiracy_theory
    A number of observers, including the Shah, have written of rumours and allegations that the government of the United Kingdom has secretly supported “mullahs” (Shia clerics) in recent Iranian history, and in particular the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in his successful overthrow of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. It is alleged that the 1979 Iranian revolution is a Western response to the Pahlavi’s White revolution which was intended to bring benefits to Iran and its people, but was unfavorable to the landlords, clergy and the United States and UK that feared that Iran will become independent, thus hampering their further involvement.[1] Khomeini rejected the charges,[2] claiming it was the Shah who was a Western “agent” who had prevented the establishment of Islamic government in Iran until the revolution.[3]

    Israel is not mentioned here in this theory but one can imagine why.

    US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution

    Two Weeks in January: America’s secret engagement with Khomeini

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    The US-taxpayers-paid CIA has become a subsidiary of Mossad, whereas the US Congress has become a useful tool for the Israeli government: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/david-stockman/lock-them-up/
    "Iran has zero military capacity to attack the American homeland, and the claim that it is the leading sponsor of terrorism is pure bunkum. That hoary claim has been concocted by the Washington neocons and the Netanyahu political machine—both of which need to be demonized enemies in order to nurture the public fears on which their power is based."
    , @Andrei Martyanov

    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory
     
    Unlike you, I don't deal in conspiracy theories--I study the subject and that was my point, in case of Iran I also lived and served nearby. Judging by what you post on UNZ on subjects about which you have no a clue (ranging from Russia to, as this shows, Iran) it was my suggestion that you try to educate yourself. Hopefully you will heed this friendly advise.

    Two Weeks in January: America’s secret engagement with Khomeini
     
    That is what special (and intelligence) services do--they engage with pretty much everybody. Try to make generalizations based on facts, not to fit facts into generalizations.
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  109. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey Andrei,

    I took a class on Iran history at UCLA. It was taught by a professor expatriate Iranian who was no friend of the Ayatollahs and the class was full of rich Persians from Irangeles (https://www.amazon.com/Irangeles-Iranians-Angeles-Ron-Kelley/dp/0520080092). Even then he did not skew the record and was quite up front with the fact that the Shah (and his dreaded SAVAK) was hated by most of Iran (other than the rich elite). The revolution may not have gone exactly the way all parties wanted it to - but that's a different subject.

    Also, the Shah was homies with our other homies, the Saudis:
    https://www.google.com/search?q=shah+pahlavi+king+of+saudi&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjzu_brv5vVAhUhxlQKHdSUB-YQ_AUIBygC&biw=1344&bih=774

    Peace.

    I know very nearly nothing about Iran and Iranians, so take what I say with a grain of salt; but everyone forms an opinion of “national opinion” or the like based on his own social circle, and there were certainly social circles in Persia equally hostile to the Shah and to the ayatollic(?) regime that took over after the revolution. It’s also my impression of history in general that usually, especially in a substantially non-democratic state, the ruling authority is neither hated nor loved by the majority of the people, who are substantially indifferent to politics. Of course there are exceptions and Iran may very well have been one.

    Did SAVAK interfere much in the lives of the non-politically-active?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Did SAVAK interfere much in the lives of the non-politically-active?
     
    I don't think so - but the policies of the Shah were enough to be a catalyst for many people to be politically concerned and thus targets:
    "[The SAVAK] wasestablished in 1956 and became the most feared component of the Shah's power structure.Right or wrong, Iranians associated SAVAK with the baking of the United States. The level of terror unleashed by SAVAK and the impunity with which they operated in the country made the organization one of the most brutal foundations of the Shah's power."
    Iran and the United States: An Insider’s View on the Failed Past...

    Not all kings are the same. For instance, if you go up against the King of Morocco, you will be arrested or worse (depending on what level of rebellion you are undertaking). But he has a relatively high support among the population - which is why there was no serious Arab spring there. The funny thing is, you can't publish how popular he is because the question of the monarchy is not up for debate:
    "On August 1, the government seized more than 100,000 copies of publications that dared print the results of an opinion poll showing 91 percent of Moroccans approve of their king. The government’s explanation?
    'The monarchy cannot be the object of debate, even through a poll,' Communication Minister Khalid Naciri announced as the offending publications were confiscated."
    https://www.pri.org/stories/2009-08-30/how-popular-moroccos-king-dont-ask

    Peace.
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  110. Talha says:
    @MEexpert
    It is very interesting and revealing. Even today most of the famous jurists are non Arabs. Three of the top five Grand Ayatollahs in Iraq are non Arabs. Grand Ayatollah Syed Ali Sistani is from Iran, the second is from Afghanistan and the other is from Pakistan.

    Did not know that – wow – now that’s a bit surprising. I do know Pakistan has one or two marjas of its own, but had no idea any had reached such a degree to be accepted in the heartland of Iraq’s Shiah population.

    And what is so surprising in that list of names in that anecdote is the fact that we are talking about the second and third generation not four or five centuries down the road as one might expect. Non-Arabs picked up the tradition fairly quickly.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  111. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Yet another war for Israel and the Jewish lobby?

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Meanwhile, the same big mouths that have demanded to drone Assange and put the young Manning to prison for life, have been leaking classified information non-stop in pursuit of their career goals. It would be only fair to apply the harsh rules (re the divulgence of classified information) to the well-placed leakers: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/07/httpswwwwashingtonpostcomworldnational-securitysessions-discussed-trump-campaign-related-matter.html#comments
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  112. annamaria says:
    @jilles dykstra
    Who wants to know how and why the USA behaves towards Iran as it does should read
    Noam Chomsky, Howard Zinn, William Blum, et.al., 'Superpower principles, U.S. Terrorism against Cuba', 2005, Monroe
    Just replace 'Cuba' by 'Iran', and 'socialism' by 'Islam'.

    Middle Eastern wars and Europe.
    Sweden in crisis: http://contraryintexas.blogspot.com/2017/07/refugee-crisis-in-sweden.html
    Carl Bildt, the same weasel that has arranged the fraudulent persecution of Assange, is stepping forth to defend the real rapists terrorizing Sweden; he peddles the immigration under a pretext of “aging population:” http://www.jordantimes.com/opinion/carl-bildt/sweden-crisis
    Bildt, this miserable impotent-of-a-man, tries strenuously to be totally servile to his ZUSA masters by writing this presstituting stuff: “And now the number of immigrants is increasing again, reflecting chronic turmoil in the Middle East and elsewhere, as well as Europe’s increasingly turbulent and dangerous neighbourhood, largely owing to Russian revisionism and military expansion.”
    Thence the US/Lobby-initiated mass slaughter the Middle East is presented by Bildt as an unexplainable “turmoil,” whereas the immigration to Europe is explained as a result of the alleged Russian “military expansion;” never mind that Russians do their “expansion” on their own territory in response to a very real geographic/material expansion of NATO up to the Russian borders.
    Here is the real situation in Sweden: http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/265873/refugee-rape-gangs-sweden-dawn-perlmutter

    https://www.rt.com/news/375364-sweden-police-appeal-violence-malmo/

    Read More
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  113. annamaria says:
    @utu
    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British–Ruhollah_Khomeini_conspiracy_theory
    A number of observers, including the Shah, have written of rumours and allegations that the government of the United Kingdom has secretly supported "mullahs" (Shia clerics) in recent Iranian history, and in particular the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in his successful overthrow of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. It is alleged that the 1979 Iranian revolution is a Western response to the Pahlavi's White revolution which was intended to bring benefits to Iran and its people, but was unfavorable to the landlords, clergy and the United States and UK that feared that Iran will become independent, thus hampering their further involvement.[1] Khomeini rejected the charges,[2] claiming it was the Shah who was a Western "agent" who had prevented the establishment of Islamic government in Iran until the revolution.[3]
     
    Israel is not mentioned here in this theory but one can imagine why.

    US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution

    Two Weeks in January: America's secret engagement with Khomeini
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160

    The US-taxpayers-paid CIA has become a subsidiary of Mossad, whereas the US Congress has become a useful tool for the Israeli government: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/david-stockman/lock-them-up/
    “Iran has zero military capacity to attack the American homeland, and the claim that it is the leading sponsor of terrorism is pure bunkum. That hoary claim has been concocted by the Washington neocons and the Netanyahu political machine—both of which need to be demonized enemies in order to nurture the public fears on which their power is based.”

    Read More
    • Agree: jacques sheete
    • Replies: @utu
    Just tried to point out that there is Israel driven 3-point doctrine for the Middle East:

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.
     
    And that Iran of Shah was the first victim of this doctrine.

    Comrade Andrei Martyanov, however does not agree with it because he happened to station nearby, though within the USSR which was well known and famed for having well informed citizen and soldiers due to excellent media (single channel cable radios) and openness in the USSR, so he had a first hand experience to know what exactly transpired in Iran.

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  114. Talha says:
    @Anon
    I know very nearly nothing about Iran and Iranians, so take what I say with a grain of salt; but everyone forms an opinion of "national opinion" or the like based on his own social circle, and there were certainly social circles in Persia equally hostile to the Shah and to the ayatollic(?) regime that took over after the revolution. It's also my impression of history in general that usually, especially in a substantially non-democratic state, the ruling authority is neither hated nor loved by the majority of the people, who are substantially indifferent to politics. Of course there are exceptions and Iran may very well have been one.

    Did SAVAK interfere much in the lives of the non-politically-active?

    Did SAVAK interfere much in the lives of the non-politically-active?

    I don’t think so – but the policies of the Shah were enough to be a catalyst for many people to be politically concerned and thus targets:
    “[The SAVAK] wasestablished in 1956 and became the most feared component of the Shah’s power structure.Right or wrong, Iranians associated SAVAK with the baking of the United States. The level of terror unleashed by SAVAK and the impunity with which they operated in the country made the organization one of the most brutal foundations of the Shah’s power.”
    Iran and the United States: An Insider’s View on the Failed Past…

    Not all kings are the same. For instance, if you go up against the King of Morocco, you will be arrested or worse (depending on what level of rebellion you are undertaking). But he has a relatively high support among the population – which is why there was no serious Arab spring there. The funny thing is, you can’t publish how popular he is because the question of the monarchy is not up for debate:
    “On August 1, the government seized more than 100,000 copies of publications that dared print the results of an opinion poll showing 91 percent of Moroccans approve of their king. The government’s explanation?
    ‘The monarchy cannot be the object of debate, even through a poll,’ Communication Minister Khalid Naciri announced as the offending publications were confiscated.”

    https://www.pri.org/stories/2009-08-30/how-popular-moroccos-king-dont-ask

    Peace.

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  115. KA says:

    USA enjoys smooth transition of power . Gingrich and .Bolton and Trump are looking into regime change in America. . Prior administration of Bush, Cheney along with international opinion provided by Iran , supported by Blairs UK , informed by Murdich media were providing the moral and military leadership towards the same cause.

    Our democracy survives on multiple varied disparate input and on public opinion .

    Bolton ,the placeholder , Gingrich occupying the default position , Cotton, Cardin,and Menendez are exemplary in sertting the nature of the debate from within.
    They are bearing the torch provided by the post 911 narrative of Frum and seniility drien talented N Podohoretz .

    It from a distant looks like a relay match of Olympics. The final destination is Tehran who is waiting to be embraced and catapulted into homosexualized , privatized , atomized , Kadarshian love fest .

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    The smooth regime changing could get some bumps.
    The main "senior" voice of Russiangate scandal, McCain, is getting undressed:
    http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/16/mccain-and-the-trump-russia-dossier/amp
    "Did John McCain and a controversial D.C. lobbying group conspire to get the infamous "pee dossier" into the hands of the press? New filings in the lawsuit, obtained by McClatchy, detail how David Kramer—employed by the nonprofit and purportedly non-political McCain Institute—acted as a representative of McCain in the Arizona senator's dealings on sensitive intelligence measures. It also reveals that McCain was one of a just few people with whom the dossier's author, ex-British spy Christopher Steele, shared a copy of his final findings.... McCain even said last year that he has "nothing to do with" the McCain Institute, after being asked about a $1 million donation from the Saudis. And yet Kramer, the McCain Institute leader, allegedly went around brokering intelligence as an official representative of McCain the senator. It was McCain who gave the FBI the dossier, in December. It alleges the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin to "hack" the U.S. election."
    The same Tokyo Rose.
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  116. @alternatereality
    The profound and tragic irony is that Iran, whose Islamic society is a relatively recent construct built upon an ancient and long-lived Zoroastrian bedrock, is also the ethical bedrock of Jesusian ethics.

    Zoroaster predated the Abrahamics by as much as a millenia; remember: Cyrus, author of the Cylinder that enshrined human rights for all; Cyrus, who liberated Hebrews from Nebuchadnezzar; Cyrus, who supported Yehud financially and politically to return to their beloved Zion (tho 70% of Jews chose to remain in Persia); Cyrus was ZOROASTRIAN before Jews had committed their myths to writing (it's reasonable to speculate that Persians taught Hebrews to record their stories in written form).

    It's also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian; he most certainly would have been exposed to Zoroastrian teachings: the Roman Empire at the time of Jesus shared a very long border with Persia, and fought border wars with the Persians/Parthians: Gibbons observes that it was the Roman Empire's failure to rationally address its conflict with Parthia that was one of three key elements in the decline of the Roman Empire. Some people just don't care to learn from history.

    Genuine Christians (I don't like to use that term; I prefer Jesusians) would NOT distance themselves from Iran --would NOT throw them to the not-so-tender mercies of crazed Christian Zionists and Jews/Israelis: If you believe in the message of Jesus, as Thomas Jefferson did and so many great leaders, then you would support Iran in its efforts to resist the GLOB, the zionists, and the Newt Gingriches.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv-CdTC-StQ

    “It’s also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian”

    Jesus was a well-known Galilean, and was thoroughly mocked by Judeans who considered Galilee the local equivalent of West Virginia.
    Jesus was circumcised at 8 days in the Presentation at the Temple.
    The sages at the Temple were astonished at his learning when he was 12–probably his Bar Mitzvah. His family had brought him to Jerusalem for Passover.
    Jesus was criticized for healing people on the Sabbath. His disciples were criticized for picking grain out of the fields to eat on the Sabbath. Why would anyone care what a bunch of Zoroastrians did or didn’t do on a Jewish Sabbath?
    The Last Supper was a ritual Passover meal.
    The earliest Christians: his Mother, elderly Temple witnesses Simeon and Anna, the apostles, former enemy St. Paul, –had all been brought up Jewish. The Messiah had been predicted in the Old Testament, and Jesus scolded supposed “experts” for not recognizing the signs when they saw Him.

    The fact that Judas, Annas, and Caiaphas (a man detested even by his own congregation–there are records) were also Jewish does not change the fact that Jesus was the fulfillment of ancient Jewish prophecies, and His genealogy in Matthew mentions many important Old Testament figures. The fact that present-day Israel is run by the same kind of folks who run police-states in South America also does not change the facts.

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible. Some Nazis tried to present Jesus as an Aryan, claiming that His miraculous conception meant he was not genetically descended from Mary, but because He had too many turn-the-other-cheek moments to suit them, and because they could not make similar arguments about notable former Pharisee St. Paul, they eventually gave up and tried to restore worship of Woden.

    “….each ‘historical Jesus’ is unhistorical. The documents say what they say and cannot be added to; each new ‘historical Jesus’ therefore has to be got out of them by suppression at one point and exaggeration at another, and by that sort of guessing (brilliant is the adjective we teach humans to apply to it) on which no one would risk ten shillings in ordinary life, but which is enough to produce a crop of new Napoleons, new Shakespeares, and new Swifts, in every publisher’s autumn list.” – CS Lewis

    Should we side with either Iran or Israel? Probably not–let them hash it out. And turn a blind eye when they both do shady things in their conflicts, which they will. Don’t get OUR troops involved.
    But don’t drag Jesus into it. His kingdom is not of this world.

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    • Replies: @alternatereality

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible.
     
    LOL!

    You cannot cherry pick the capital b bible because it's been done already. Many times. Did you bother to carefully listen to the video? Charles Carlson provides evidence on how the capital b bible was cherry-picked by Cyrus Scofield, in service of zionists.

    King James cherry - picked the capital b bible when he instructed translators to emphasize that his monarchy was divinely ordained and protected.

    Here's a news flash: the 'new ' testament was written AFTER the old testament. That is to say, notions of Jesus "fulfilling" prophecy from OT could so easily have been written into the NT.

    The books that were included in what is now called the capital b bible were selected -- you might say cherry picked -- by several political leaders and the quasi-religious leaders who shared influence with him; in the process, other versions of the life of Jesus and interpretations of his message were excluded, even obliterated: there are no complete versions of Marcion's interpretation of the life of Jesus.

    btw, how very Christian of you to declare, "Let the Israelis and Iranians hash it out."

    USA and the British -- Jewish as well as eevangelical Christians -- created the mess and put Israel at odds, or encouraged Israel to maintain its conflict status -- over the course of a century or more. Do such capital b bible Christians have no concept of responsibility for their acts -- which is, by the way, a core concept of Zoroastrianism.

    Please don't respond with some Sunday-go-to-meeting sermon; we've heard it all: it was nutty the first time and it hasn't gotten any more rational with the nth repetition. Try to address the geography, the history, and the evidence, not what was written by self-selected elites in a self-authored capital b bible.
    , @alternatereality
    PS your trashing of the Aryan bible is risible.

    Susannah Heschel rode that hobby horse to great effect in service of her zionist god, but Walther Grundmann did NOT abandon his project for the worship of Woden. Nor was the German project to detach the life of Jesus from a Jewish matrix unique to Grundmann and his broadly supported movement: Thomas Jefferson embarked on a similar project, producing the popularly named Jefferson Bible, (subtitle) The Life and Morals of Jesus.
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  117. @MEexpert

    Israel Firsters’ money, like the arms industey’s, the pharmaceutical industry’s, Disney’s etc is readily traceable in politicians’behaviour but how do you make – except in imagination or assumption – the same connection for Saudi influence?
     
    Saudi Arabia has learned well from its Zionist counterpart to influence the US law makers. She may not have an AIPAC version of a lobby to further its cause but Saudi Arabia spends billions of dollars in lobbying efforts to buy influence on Capitol Hill. The Saudis just spent billions of dollars to buy weapons which in turn buys them more influence through the Military-Industrial-Complex. Saudi Arabia also has almost trillion dollars invested in various ventures around the United States. She recently threatened to pull out that investment in case the 9/11 lawsuit bill went through congress. If that were to happen the US economy will tank. Of course the US can always freeze those assets.

    I could be wrong here, but didnt saudi arabia exist before isreal? And im not talking about the official start date in the 40s. Isreal was in the making in the 1890s. But didnt saudi arabia have a treaty with the US in the 1850s. So wouldnt it be isreal that learned from saudi arabia? And then took ut to the next level….

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    • Replies: @Delinquent Snail
    Had some time and looked up saudi arabia. Founded much later then i thought. What gulf state was america buddy-buddy with in the mid 19c? I remember reading about it in high school history...... It wasnt a large section. There was no war involving america over there so it wasnt talked about. Now that i think about it, history class was just war after war after war..... Huh. Small blips about the sociopolitical and economic parts here and there, but mostly it was about americas near conatant warfare. Either America is a bloodthirsty nation or the authors of the book were just priming us for future conflict by only focusing on the conflict, not showing another side of history.

    Or maybe humans are just naturally set on "murder my neighbor"....

    Its late, i should sleep....
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  118. @utu
    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British–Ruhollah_Khomeini_conspiracy_theory
    A number of observers, including the Shah, have written of rumours and allegations that the government of the United Kingdom has secretly supported "mullahs" (Shia clerics) in recent Iranian history, and in particular the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini in his successful overthrow of Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in the Iranian Revolution of 1979. It is alleged that the 1979 Iranian revolution is a Western response to the Pahlavi's White revolution which was intended to bring benefits to Iran and its people, but was unfavorable to the landlords, clergy and the United States and UK that feared that Iran will become independent, thus hampering their further involvement.[1] Khomeini rejected the charges,[2] claiming it was the Shah who was a Western "agent" who had prevented the establishment of Islamic government in Iran until the revolution.[3]
     
    Israel is not mentioned here in this theory but one can imagine why.

    US had extensive contact with Ayatollah Khomeini before Iran revolution
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jun/10/ayatollah-khomeini-jimmy-carter-administration-iran-revolution

    Two Weeks in January: America's secret engagement with Khomeini
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-36431160

    British–Ruhollah Khomeini conspiracy theory

    Unlike you, I don’t deal in conspiracy theories–I study the subject and that was my point, in case of Iran I also lived and served nearby. Judging by what you post on UNZ on subjects about which you have no a clue (ranging from Russia to, as this shows, Iran) it was my suggestion that you try to educate yourself. Hopefully you will heed this friendly advise.

    Two Weeks in January: America’s secret engagement with Khomeini

    That is what special (and intelligence) services do–they engage with pretty much everybody. Try to make generalizations based on facts, not to fit facts into generalizations.

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  119. @Rosamond Vincy
    "It’s also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian"

    Jesus was a well-known Galilean, and was thoroughly mocked by Judeans who considered Galilee the local equivalent of West Virginia.
    Jesus was circumcised at 8 days in the Presentation at the Temple.
    The sages at the Temple were astonished at his learning when he was 12--probably his Bar Mitzvah. His family had brought him to Jerusalem for Passover.
    Jesus was criticized for healing people on the Sabbath. His disciples were criticized for picking grain out of the fields to eat on the Sabbath. Why would anyone care what a bunch of Zoroastrians did or didn't do on a Jewish Sabbath?
    The Last Supper was a ritual Passover meal.
    The earliest Christians: his Mother, elderly Temple witnesses Simeon and Anna, the apostles, former enemy St. Paul, --had all been brought up Jewish. The Messiah had been predicted in the Old Testament, and Jesus scolded supposed "experts" for not recognizing the signs when they saw Him.

    The fact that Judas, Annas, and Caiaphas (a man detested even by his own congregation--there are records) were also Jewish does not change the fact that Jesus was the fulfillment of ancient Jewish prophecies, and His genealogy in Matthew mentions many important Old Testament figures. The fact that present-day Israel is run by the same kind of folks who run police-states in South America also does not change the facts.

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible. Some Nazis tried to present Jesus as an Aryan, claiming that His miraculous conception meant he was not genetically descended from Mary, but because He had too many turn-the-other-cheek moments to suit them, and because they could not make similar arguments about notable former Pharisee St. Paul, they eventually gave up and tried to restore worship of Woden.

    "....each ‘historical Jesus’ is unhistorical. The documents say what they say and cannot be added to; each new ‘historical Jesus’ therefore has to be got out of them by suppression at one point and exaggeration at another, and by that sort of guessing (brilliant is the adjective we teach humans to apply to it) on which no one would risk ten shillings in ordinary life, but which is enough to produce a crop of new Napoleons, new Shakespeares, and new Swifts, in every publisher’s autumn list." - CS Lewis
     
    Should we side with either Iran or Israel? Probably not--let them hash it out. And turn a blind eye when they both do shady things in their conflicts, which they will. Don't get OUR troops involved.
    But don't drag Jesus into it. His kingdom is not of this world.

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible.

    LOL!

    You cannot cherry pick the capital b bible because it’s been done already. Many times. Did you bother to carefully listen to the video? Charles Carlson provides evidence on how the capital b bible was cherry-picked by Cyrus Scofield, in service of zionists.

    King James cherry – picked the capital b bible when he instructed translators to emphasize that his monarchy was divinely ordained and protected.

    Here’s a news flash: the ‘new ‘ testament was written AFTER the old testament. That is to say, notions of Jesus “fulfilling” prophecy from OT could so easily have been written into the NT.

    The books that were included in what is now called the capital b bible were selected — you might say cherry picked — by several political leaders and the quasi-religious leaders who shared influence with him; in the process, other versions of the life of Jesus and interpretations of his message were excluded, even obliterated: there are no complete versions of Marcion’s interpretation of the life of Jesus.

    btw, how very Christian of you to declare, “Let the Israelis and Iranians hash it out.”

    USA and the British — Jewish as well as eevangelical Christians — created the mess and put Israel at odds, or encouraged Israel to maintain its conflict status — over the course of a century or more. Do such capital b bible Christians have no concept of responsibility for their acts — which is, by the way, a core concept of Zoroastrianism.

    Please don’t respond with some Sunday-go-to-meeting sermon; we’ve heard it all: it was nutty the first time and it hasn’t gotten any more rational with the nth repetition. Try to address the geography, the history, and the evidence, not what was written by self-selected elites in a self-authored capital b bible.

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  120. @Rosamond Vincy
    "It’s also reasonable to speculate that Jesus was Persian"

    Jesus was a well-known Galilean, and was thoroughly mocked by Judeans who considered Galilee the local equivalent of West Virginia.
    Jesus was circumcised at 8 days in the Presentation at the Temple.
    The sages at the Temple were astonished at his learning when he was 12--probably his Bar Mitzvah. His family had brought him to Jerusalem for Passover.
    Jesus was criticized for healing people on the Sabbath. His disciples were criticized for picking grain out of the fields to eat on the Sabbath. Why would anyone care what a bunch of Zoroastrians did or didn't do on a Jewish Sabbath?
    The Last Supper was a ritual Passover meal.
    The earliest Christians: his Mother, elderly Temple witnesses Simeon and Anna, the apostles, former enemy St. Paul, --had all been brought up Jewish. The Messiah had been predicted in the Old Testament, and Jesus scolded supposed "experts" for not recognizing the signs when they saw Him.

    The fact that Judas, Annas, and Caiaphas (a man detested even by his own congregation--there are records) were also Jewish does not change the fact that Jesus was the fulfillment of ancient Jewish prophecies, and His genealogy in Matthew mentions many important Old Testament figures. The fact that present-day Israel is run by the same kind of folks who run police-states in South America also does not change the facts.

    You cannot cherry-pick the Bible. Some Nazis tried to present Jesus as an Aryan, claiming that His miraculous conception meant he was not genetically descended from Mary, but because He had too many turn-the-other-cheek moments to suit them, and because they could not make similar arguments about notable former Pharisee St. Paul, they eventually gave up and tried to restore worship of Woden.

    "....each ‘historical Jesus’ is unhistorical. The documents say what they say and cannot be added to; each new ‘historical Jesus’ therefore has to be got out of them by suppression at one point and exaggeration at another, and by that sort of guessing (brilliant is the adjective we teach humans to apply to it) on which no one would risk ten shillings in ordinary life, but which is enough to produce a crop of new Napoleons, new Shakespeares, and new Swifts, in every publisher’s autumn list." - CS Lewis
     
    Should we side with either Iran or Israel? Probably not--let them hash it out. And turn a blind eye when they both do shady things in their conflicts, which they will. Don't get OUR troops involved.
    But don't drag Jesus into it. His kingdom is not of this world.

    PS your trashing of the Aryan bible is risible.

    Susannah Heschel rode that hobby horse to great effect in service of her zionist god, but Walther Grundmann did NOT abandon his project for the worship of Woden. Nor was the German project to detach the life of Jesus from a Jewish matrix unique to Grundmann and his broadly supported movement: Thomas Jefferson embarked on a similar project, producing the popularly named Jefferson Bible, (subtitle) The Life and Morals of Jesus.

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    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Walther Grundmann may not have abandoned his project, but senior Nazis abandoned HIM. In the later years of the war, advice to leaders on propaganda counseled allowing Christmas celebrations but emphasizing the sentimental aspects of "Yuletide," gradually letting the religious aspect die out, rather than directly trying to force ordinary people to give up celebrating the birth of Jesus (on Calvin.edu's Nazi propaganda site). Germans were expected to "celebrate Easter as a festival of spring, which has been passed down to us for millennia from the mists of German time.” A party official in Halle referred to Jesus as "this swine," schoolteachers called Him "a Jewish tramp," and the Bishop of Linz was decried for saying, “The nation is not the highest power, nor may the state be idolized; The highest power for each nation is and remains religion.” Gravestones were to have swastikas that were larger and placed above crosses or crucifixes. Adolescents were reminded to keep their Aryan blood pure by breeding only with other Aryans, but nothing was said about the redemptive power of Jesus' Precious Blood. One educator grumbled that any warrior like Siegfried was worth a thousand of "this Jesus."

    Jesus isn't much use to Fascists. Take away Jesus' Jewish genealogies in Matthew and Luke, His injunctions to show mercy to each other, His freely-accepted death according to Messianic prophecies, and His mission to bring salvation to ALL mankind, and there's not a whole lot left--unless you start making things up.
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  121. utu says:
    @annamaria
    The US-taxpayers-paid CIA has become a subsidiary of Mossad, whereas the US Congress has become a useful tool for the Israeli government: https://www.lewrockwell.com/2017/07/david-stockman/lock-them-up/
    "Iran has zero military capacity to attack the American homeland, and the claim that it is the leading sponsor of terrorism is pure bunkum. That hoary claim has been concocted by the Washington neocons and the Netanyahu political machine—both of which need to be demonized enemies in order to nurture the public fears on which their power is based."

    Just tried to point out that there is Israel driven 3-point doctrine for the Middle East:

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.

    And that Iran of Shah was the first victim of this doctrine.

    Comrade Andrei Martyanov, however does not agree with it because he happened to station nearby, though within the USSR which was well known and famed for having well informed citizen and soldiers due to excellent media (single channel cable radios) and openness in the USSR, so he had a first hand experience to know what exactly transpired in Iran.

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    • Replies: @annamaria
    Agree with you that Israel's doctrine (as articulated in Oded Yinon plan) can be distilled to three main points:
    "1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states."

    Hence the mounds of human flesh and rivers of human blood in the Middle East.

    The CIA did indeed become a subsidiary of Mossad: "U.S. sent $1 billion worth of weapons for terrorists" https://trud.bg/350-diplomatic-flights-carry-weapons-for-terrorists/
    "Azerbaijan's Silk Way Airlines transported hundreds of tons of weapons under diplomatic cover to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Congo. The weapons and ammunition are usually from East Europe (Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Ukraine ...) The contracts are with U.S. companies themselves hired by the CIA and/or Pentagon as well as with Saudi and Israeli companies. Offloading during unusual "fueling stops" allowed to disguise the real addressee of the loads. With lots of details from obtained emails.
    Ten thousands of tons of weapons and ammunition to al-Qaeda and other Takfiris in Syria also came first from Libya by ship, then on at least 160 big cargo flights via Saudi Arabia and Qatar to Turkey and during the last years by various ships under U.S. contracts from mostly East-European countries."
    http://www.moonofalabama.org

    The Jewish communities in the US/EU must make a choice: either a safe and prosperous life within the confounds of western civilization (which demands the loyalty to the countries of residence in the US/EU) or the inevitable massive populist clash against the treasonous international Jewish Lobby that is loyal to the small supremacist state which existence demands the ongoing mass slaughter in the Middle East and the ruin of western civilization. See Israel's doctrine.

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  122. El Dato says:
    @Esther Haman
    Do you people have access to a Globe, a map to see where Iran is located geographically and how close it is to Russia!? If we go to war with Iran, it will be much worth than what we had in Vietnam in many ways. Iran will become a Russia's puppet, one that will have access to all the Arab Oil fields. If what Saddam Hussain did to Kuwait’s oil fields was not horrendous, you will witness it in much bigger form in Saudi’s oil fields. Russia will dominate the world oil market overnight and support for American $$ will go to ZERO. That scenario is only part of the whole scenarios that will play in Russia's advantage.

    > Russia

    Russia is not known for having heavy ties to Shia Islam or Persia.

    I don’t see where they are coming in here.

    Still…

    Wikipedia has a nice map

    Yeah, “taking out” that fat thing in the middle is gonne be a cakewalk. Yep. Imma waiting for the TV serialization on HBO.

    May well result in Persians washing their boots on the shores of the Mediterranean again, eventually. Who knows.

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  123. @TomSchmidt
    As to sin, I refer you to this link, #585. Don't let McCain's evil destroy you, too, as it has destroyed him.

    God bless you, Tom. Your are a true Christian.

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  124. annamaria says:
    @utu
    Just tried to point out that there is Israel driven 3-point doctrine for the Middle East:

    1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.
     
    And that Iran of Shah was the first victim of this doctrine.

    Comrade Andrei Martyanov, however does not agree with it because he happened to station nearby, though within the USSR which was well known and famed for having well informed citizen and soldiers due to excellent media (single channel cable radios) and openness in the USSR, so he had a first hand experience to know what exactly transpired in Iran.

    Agree with you that Israel’s doctrine (as articulated in Oded Yinon plan) can be distilled to three main points:
    “1. No strong state will be allowed to exist in the Middle East.
    2. Secular states pose the greatest threat as they have potential to grow strong.
    3. Islamic fundamentalist movement will be encouraged to destroy the secular states.”

    Hence the mounds of human flesh and rivers of human blood in the Middle East.

    The CIA did indeed become a subsidiary of Mossad: “U.S. sent $1 billion worth of weapons for terrorists” https://trud.bg/350-diplomatic-flights-carry-weapons-for-terrorists/
    “Azerbaijan’s Silk Way Airlines transported hundreds of tons of weapons under diplomatic cover to Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, and Congo. The weapons and ammunition are usually from East Europe (Bulgaria, Serbia, Croatia, Ukraine …) The contracts are with U.S. companies themselves hired by the CIA and/or Pentagon as well as with Saudi and Israeli companies. Offloading during unusual “fueling stops” allowed to disguise the real addressee of the loads. With lots of details from obtained emails.
    Ten thousands of tons of weapons and ammunition to al-Qaeda and other Takfiris in Syria also came first from Libya by ship, then on at least 160 big cargo flights via Saudi Arabia and Qatar to Turkey and during the last years by various ships under U.S. contracts from mostly East-European countries.”

    http://www.moonofalabama.org

    The Jewish communities in the US/EU must make a choice: either a safe and prosperous life within the confounds of western civilization (which demands the loyalty to the countries of residence in the US/EU) or the inevitable massive populist clash against the treasonous international Jewish Lobby that is loyal to the small supremacist state which existence demands the ongoing mass slaughter in the Middle East and the ruin of western civilization. See Israel’s doctrine.

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  125. Rurik says: • Website
    @geokat62
    Some trivia about the character whose face graces the cover of that video you linked to.

    His name is Ephialtis. Ever since he betrayed the Greeks at Thermopylae (2,500 years ago), the Greeks substituted his name for the word "nightmare." For example, they will say "I had an Ephialtis last night."

    Perhaps Americans can adopt the same tradition - i.e., rather than saying "I had a nightmare last night" they should start saying "I had a McCain last night."
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  126. annamaria says:
    @KA
    USA enjoys smooth transition of power . Gingrich and .Bolton and Trump are looking into regime change in America. . Prior administration of Bush, Cheney along with international opinion provided by Iran , supported by Blairs UK , informed by Murdich media were providing the moral and military leadership towards the same cause.

    Our democracy survives on multiple varied disparate input and on public opinion .

    Bolton ,the placeholder , Gingrich occupying the default position , Cotton, Cardin,and Menendez are exemplary in sertting the nature of the debate from within.
    They are bearing the torch provided by the post 911 narrative of Frum and seniility drien talented N Podohoretz .

    It from a distant looks like a relay match of Olympics. The final destination is Tehran who is waiting to be embraced and catapulted into homosexualized , privatized , atomized , Kadarshian love fest .

    The smooth regime changing could get some bumps.
    The main “senior” voice of Russiangate scandal, McCain, is getting undressed:

    http://reason.com/blog/2017/07/16/mccain-and-the-trump-russia-dossier/amp

    “Did John McCain and a controversial D.C. lobbying group conspire to get the infamous “pee dossier” into the hands of the press? New filings in the lawsuit, obtained by McClatchy, detail how David Kramer—employed by the nonprofit and purportedly non-political McCain Institute—acted as a representative of McCain in the Arizona senator’s dealings on sensitive intelligence measures. It also reveals that McCain was one of a just few people with whom the dossier’s author, ex-British spy Christopher Steele, shared a copy of his final findings…. McCain even said last year that he has “nothing to do with” the McCain Institute, after being asked about a $1 million donation from the Saudis. And yet Kramer, the McCain Institute leader, allegedly went around brokering intelligence as an official representative of McCain the senator. It was McCain who gave the FBI the dossier, in December. It alleges the Trump campaign colluded with the Kremlin to “hack” the U.S. election.”
    The same Tokyo Rose.

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  127. annamaria says:
    @anon
    Yet another war for Israel and the Jewish lobby?

    Meanwhile, the same big mouths that have demanded to drone Assange and put the young Manning to prison for life, have been leaking classified information non-stop in pursuit of their career goals. It would be only fair to apply the harsh rules (re the divulgence of classified information) to the well-placed leakers: http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/07/httpswwwwashingtonpostcomworldnational-securitysessions-discussed-trump-campaign-related-matter.html#comments

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  128. annamaria says:

    “Another felonious disclosure:”

    http://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2017/07/httpswwwwashingtonpostcomworldnational-securitysessions-discussed-trump-campaign-related-matter.html#comments

    Some comments for the linked article::

    1. “Sessions just announced that he plans to ramp up civil forfeiture. The company whose employees have received leaked information and which continues in facilitating the spread of this illegally obtained information is the Washington Post. That company is owned by Jeff Bezos. What’s stopping Session from seizing those assets?”
    2. “Will we ever learn the names of these unknown bastards who are compromising our SIGINT capabilities? They’re bastards when they undermine our National Security.”
    3. “By all means, leakers of classified information should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Charge them with everything possible and then strive to make as much as possible stick. Then see to it that the maximum sentence is received for each count on which they are found guilty.”

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  129. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt
    I used to. David Stockman's book The Great Deformation went some into the thinking of CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us "investment" banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed. Hard to tell with crony capitalists.

    The big flaw was that the Fed was vulnerable to political takeover, obviously much more so than a free banking system. It was the Wall Street bond salesman, FDR, who twisted the Fed into the organization that would bow and scrape towards his centralizing administration. BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression. BErnanke was wrong; Stockman's overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.

    CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal,

    I just wrote a post to Geo about a catastrophic traitor to his nation and its people

    Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us “investment” banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed

    Clinton was a stooge. The brains behind the repeal was Robert Rubin, with his Igor Lawrence Summers. Goldman Sachs boyz. Part of the Satanic trinity that is Goldman, The Treasury and the Fed.

    BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression.


    “If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered…. I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies…. The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs.”

    ~ T. Jefferson

    Stockman’s overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.

    interesting..

    my view is that the Federal Reserve System is a Jewish weapon to loot the people of the planet and subvert our own governments and turn them into enemies of our respective nations and peoples. By controlling the money supply and the interest rates and handing out hundreds of billions to their fellow travelers, they corrupt the governments of the West (and beyond) and arrange for things to work in their favor.

    It’s why they own and/or control everything of consequence, from our federal politicians to the banks and courts and universities and Hollywood and our msm and publishing houses and Madison Ave to running Wall Street where a lion’s share of the Quantitative Easing (trillions in printed/counterfeited Federal Reserve Notes/dollars) are insinuated into our money supply, enriching the Jews on Wall Street and simultaneously looting the value over everyone else’s savings.

    It is control of the Fed that has given them the power to control the US government absolutely, to the point that they have us fighting eternal wars for Israel, as we get debt and body bags in return and the world’s well-earned hatred for our efforts. It’s why the entire Western world is committing suicide with the ‘invade the world / invite the world’ mass suicidal insanity.

    These evils of destroying nation after nation (that Israel considers inconvenient) to importing millions upon millions of congenitally hostile peoples into our lands are not part of a Western people’s agenda. Hardly. They are the work of Jews who hate Western Civilization down to the marrow of their bones. And they will not ever relent. Ever. Until the power of the Fed is removed from their Satanic grip.

    That’s the way I see things, and the basis of our collective challenges.

    (obviously not all Jews are in league with these demons and they’d get nowhere fast were it not for willing and eager Gentile traitors/Kapos like John McBloodstain)

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    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    I assume you've read The Creature from Jekyll Island, about the Fed. I've absorbed that message and had the negative view of the Fed. Stockman gives a very interesting inside baseball view of the budgeting process in the Reagan years, and of course the creation of the Fed. (How we came up with the massive, ridiculous amount we spent on defense in the early 80s, creating an arsenal that was just lying around for people like Bush 41 and 43 to use vivisecting the Middle East is worth the price of the book). My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn't evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin. The nation based on that economy, and the military supported by it, are headed for a fall. Belloc noted that many Christians converted to Islam at the time of the initial conquest to escape debt. The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    If you haven't read David Graeber's book Debt yet, do so in the next month. The cycle of debt and renunciation has gone one since Sumeria and we are nearing another peak and jubilee of debt forgiveness.
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  130. annamaria says:

    A rabid Israel firster, Brad Sherman (D-CA), has filed Articles of Impeachment against Donald J. Trump: https://sherman.house.gov/media-center/press-releases/congressman-sherman-introduces-article-of-impeachment-obstruction-of

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  131. lavoisier says: • Website
    @yeah
    "There is nothing liberating about the Islamic Republic".

    With all due respect, that is a question for the Iranian people to decide. The world has had too many American liberations a la Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan, all over Latin America. How much war do you crave? Let things and people be as they are and focus on improving yourself.

    I crave neither war nor intervention with Iran.

    But the Islamic Republic is a ruthless dictatorship and it is naive to pretend otherwise.

    The country bleeds out its best and brightest today for that reason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here's what we do know for certain about Iran...

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.
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  132. Art says:

    Why is containment surrender? “Because freedom is threatened everywhere so long as this dictatorship stays in power,” says Gingrich.

    Gingrich is selling out to the Jew Matrix – PERIOD.

    Gingrich writes book – Jew Matrix controls book selling.

    Jew Matrix wants Iran attacked – so Gingrich attacks Iran – it is as simple as that.

    Would Gingrich actually push attacking Iran if he thought it was a real possibility – I think not – I hope not – because that would make him a bona fide traitor.

    Peace — Art

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  133. @alternatereality
    PS your trashing of the Aryan bible is risible.

    Susannah Heschel rode that hobby horse to great effect in service of her zionist god, but Walther Grundmann did NOT abandon his project for the worship of Woden. Nor was the German project to detach the life of Jesus from a Jewish matrix unique to Grundmann and his broadly supported movement: Thomas Jefferson embarked on a similar project, producing the popularly named Jefferson Bible, (subtitle) The Life and Morals of Jesus.

    Walther Grundmann may not have abandoned his project, but senior Nazis abandoned HIM. In the later years of the war, advice to leaders on propaganda counseled allowing Christmas celebrations but emphasizing the sentimental aspects of “Yuletide,” gradually letting the religious aspect die out, rather than directly trying to force ordinary people to give up celebrating the birth of Jesus (on Calvin.edu’s Nazi propaganda site). Germans were expected to “celebrate Easter as a festival of spring, which has been passed down to us for millennia from the mists of German time.” A party official in Halle referred to Jesus as “this swine,” schoolteachers called Him “a Jewish tramp,” and the Bishop of Linz was decried for saying, “The nation is not the highest power, nor may the state be idolized; The highest power for each nation is and remains religion.” Gravestones were to have swastikas that were larger and placed above crosses or crucifixes. Adolescents were reminded to keep their Aryan blood pure by breeding only with other Aryans, but nothing was said about the redemptive power of Jesus’ Precious Blood. One educator grumbled that any warrior like Siegfried was worth a thousand of “this Jesus.”

    Jesus isn’t much use to Fascists. Take away Jesus’ Jewish genealogies in Matthew and Luke, His injunctions to show mercy to each other, His freely-accepted death according to Messianic prophecies, and His mission to bring salvation to ALL mankind, and there’s not a whole lot left–unless you start making things up.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Superb post - thanks!

    Peace.
    , @Anon
    Our Blessed Lord is of plenty of use to Fascists (but of none to Nazis). Take away the out-and-out Marxist elements of Fascism and what you have left is not irreconcilable to Christianity. This is more or less what many of the actual Fascists (and Nazis) concluded.

    Otherwise, thanks for the information.
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  134. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Walther Grundmann may not have abandoned his project, but senior Nazis abandoned HIM. In the later years of the war, advice to leaders on propaganda counseled allowing Christmas celebrations but emphasizing the sentimental aspects of "Yuletide," gradually letting the religious aspect die out, rather than directly trying to force ordinary people to give up celebrating the birth of Jesus (on Calvin.edu's Nazi propaganda site). Germans were expected to "celebrate Easter as a festival of spring, which has been passed down to us for millennia from the mists of German time.” A party official in Halle referred to Jesus as "this swine," schoolteachers called Him "a Jewish tramp," and the Bishop of Linz was decried for saying, “The nation is not the highest power, nor may the state be idolized; The highest power for each nation is and remains religion.” Gravestones were to have swastikas that were larger and placed above crosses or crucifixes. Adolescents were reminded to keep their Aryan blood pure by breeding only with other Aryans, but nothing was said about the redemptive power of Jesus' Precious Blood. One educator grumbled that any warrior like Siegfried was worth a thousand of "this Jesus."

    Jesus isn't much use to Fascists. Take away Jesus' Jewish genealogies in Matthew and Luke, His injunctions to show mercy to each other, His freely-accepted death according to Messianic prophecies, and His mission to bring salvation to ALL mankind, and there's not a whole lot left--unless you start making things up.

    Superb post – thanks!

    Peace.

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  135. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Rosamond Vincy
    Walther Grundmann may not have abandoned his project, but senior Nazis abandoned HIM. In the later years of the war, advice to leaders on propaganda counseled allowing Christmas celebrations but emphasizing the sentimental aspects of "Yuletide," gradually letting the religious aspect die out, rather than directly trying to force ordinary people to give up celebrating the birth of Jesus (on Calvin.edu's Nazi propaganda site). Germans were expected to "celebrate Easter as a festival of spring, which has been passed down to us for millennia from the mists of German time.” A party official in Halle referred to Jesus as "this swine," schoolteachers called Him "a Jewish tramp," and the Bishop of Linz was decried for saying, “The nation is not the highest power, nor may the state be idolized; The highest power for each nation is and remains religion.” Gravestones were to have swastikas that were larger and placed above crosses or crucifixes. Adolescents were reminded to keep their Aryan blood pure by breeding only with other Aryans, but nothing was said about the redemptive power of Jesus' Precious Blood. One educator grumbled that any warrior like Siegfried was worth a thousand of "this Jesus."

    Jesus isn't much use to Fascists. Take away Jesus' Jewish genealogies in Matthew and Luke, His injunctions to show mercy to each other, His freely-accepted death according to Messianic prophecies, and His mission to bring salvation to ALL mankind, and there's not a whole lot left--unless you start making things up.

    Our Blessed Lord is of plenty of use to Fascists (but of none to Nazis). Take away the out-and-out Marxist elements of Fascism and what you have left is not irreconcilable to Christianity. This is more or less what many of the actual Fascists (and Nazis) concluded.

    Otherwise, thanks for the information.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    Are you referring to Spain and Italy? They did try to reconcile Fascism with the Church, but of course they still silenced any clergy who said anything they didn't like. But then, so did England's Henry II.
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  136. @lavoisier
    I crave neither war nor intervention with Iran.

    But the Islamic Republic is a ruthless dictatorship and it is naive to pretend otherwise.

    The country bleeds out its best and brightest today for that reason.

    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here’s what we do know for certain about Iran…

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    , @annamaria
    Thank you for giving the lesson to this trolling Israel-firster.
    , @L.K
    Good points, Nosey.

    BTW, given the scarcity of Iranian sources in English about Iran, for all of us who do not speak Farsi, I recommend the site of Prof. Ismael H. Zadeh:
    https://ismaelhossein-zadeh.com/publications/

    Re the strange relationship between ISIS & the ZUSA, writes Zadeh:

    The U.S. approach to ISIS would be better understood when it is viewed in the context of its overall objectives in the region—and beyond. That overriding objective, shared and reinforced by its client states, is to undermine or eliminate “the axis of resistance,” consisting of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and, to a lesser extent, Shia forces in Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Achievement of this goal would also be achievement of another, even broader, goal: undermining Russia’s influence and alliances in the region and, by extension, in other parts of the world—for example, its critically important role within both the Shanghai Cooperation Council (China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan) and the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa).

    To intervene in order to achieve these goals, the U.S. and its allies need pretexts and/or enemies—even if it means inventing or manufacturing such enemies. Without ISIS, resumption of U.S. military operations in Iraq and extension of those operations into Syria would have been difficult to justify to the American people.
     
    Also, try to find and read Dr. Sniegoski's "Iran as a Twentieth Century Victim: 1900 Through the Aftermath of World War II", you'll have a better understanding of what this country has had to endure for over 100 years.
    , @Anon
    "largest community of Jews outside Israel"

    Huh? There are more Jews in NYC alone than in all of Iran.
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  137. @Rurik

    CArter Glass, of Virginia, who was the master architect in congress of the Fed. Glass was later co-lead on Glass-Steagal,
     
    I just wrote a post to Geo about a catastrophic traitor to his nation and its people

    Glass-Steagal, whose repeal under Clinton in the late 90s gave us “investment” banks leveraged 33-1. Or maybe that was the Fed
     
    Clinton was a stooge. The brains behind the repeal was Robert Rubin, with his Igor Lawrence Summers. Goldman Sachs boyz. Part of the Satanic trinity that is Goldman, The Treasury and the Fed.

    BErnanke once apologized to Milton Friedman and accepted the blame on behalf of the Fed for causing the stock market crash and depression.
     

    "If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their currency, first by inflation, then by deflation, the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children wake up homeless on the continent their Fathers conquered.... I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies.... The issuing power should be taken from the banks and restored to the people, to whom it properly belongs."

    ~ T. Jefferson


    Stockman’s overview of the four years from 1929 to 1933 might change your views a bit.
     
    interesting..

    my view is that the Federal Reserve System is a Jewish weapon to loot the people of the planet and subvert our own governments and turn them into enemies of our respective nations and peoples. By controlling the money supply and the interest rates and handing out hundreds of billions to their fellow travelers, they corrupt the governments of the West (and beyond) and arrange for things to work in their favor.

    It's why they own and/or control everything of consequence, from our federal politicians to the banks and courts and universities and Hollywood and our msm and publishing houses and Madison Ave to running Wall Street where a lion's share of the Quantitative Easing (trillions in printed/counterfeited Federal Reserve Notes/dollars) are insinuated into our money supply, enriching the Jews on Wall Street and simultaneously looting the value over everyone else's savings.

    It is control of the Fed that has given them the power to control the US government absolutely, to the point that they have us fighting eternal wars for Israel, as we get debt and body bags in return and the world's well-earned hatred for our efforts. It's why the entire Western world is committing suicide with the 'invade the world / invite the world' mass suicidal insanity.

    These evils of destroying nation after nation (that Israel considers inconvenient) to importing millions upon millions of congenitally hostile peoples into our lands are not part of a Western people's agenda. Hardly. They are the work of Jews who hate Western Civilization down to the marrow of their bones. And they will not ever relent. Ever. Until the power of the Fed is removed from their Satanic grip.

    That's the way I see things, and the basis of our collective challenges.

    (obviously not all Jews are in league with these demons and they'd get nowhere fast were it not for willing and eager Gentile traitors/Kapos like John McBloodstain)

    I assume you’ve read The Creature from Jekyll Island, about the Fed. I’ve absorbed that message and had the negative view of the Fed. Stockman gives a very interesting inside baseball view of the budgeting process in the Reagan years, and of course the creation of the Fed. (How we came up with the massive, ridiculous amount we spent on defense in the early 80s, creating an arsenal that was just lying around for people like Bush 41 and 43 to use vivisecting the Middle East is worth the price of the book). My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn’t evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin. The nation based on that economy, and the military supported by it, are headed for a fall. Belloc noted that many Christians converted to Islam at the time of the initial conquest to escape debt. The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    If you haven’t read David Graeber’s book Debt yet, do so in the next month. The cycle of debt and renunciation has gone one since Sumeria and we are nearing another peak and jubilee of debt forgiveness.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik
    Hey Tom,

    My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn’t evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.
     
    I think it was evil from conception. There were many American patriots who knew the dangers of a privately-owned central bank. Indeed, I think that was one of the main, if not the main reason the founders fought the American Revolutionary war against England, because King George demanded that the colonies use Bank of England debt based currency for trade rather than colonial script. From what I understand, the war of 1812 was nothing less than Rothchild sending in the troop to enslave USA to British (Rothschild) central bank / debt.

    Andrew Jackson's battle with this "den of vipers & thieves" is famous, and it nearly cost him his life to a would-be assassin.

    And look how they snuck it in on Christmas eve, when they figured no one was watching.

    or the words of warning from so many

    "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States

    "This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

    "From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

    "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." -- Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913


    "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." -- James Madison

    just a few..

    The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.
     
    I suspect they like the status quo, where Americans (and others) simply act as their debt slaves, as ((they)) 'live off the fat of the land', with the American people acting as their slaves or cannon fodder, as the case may be. While they lord it over everyone with their paper money, and use that paper money to buy up everything of consequence. And not one in ten thousand have the slightest clue as to the supreme swindle being perpetrated upon them... as its off to another kosher war.

    If you haven’t read David Graeber’s book Debt yet, do so in the next month.
     
    fascinating, thanks!

    a quick look at the book and its meaning took me to this Wikipage

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age

    In literature, Gore Vidal in his novel Creation covers much of this Axial Age through the fictional perspective of a Persian adventurer.
     
    another worthy book perhaps

    cheers
    , @utu
    "it wasn’t evil from conception"

    This is an interesting issue. Certainly there were different layers of knowledge about the outcomes and consequences. There were some people who knew more and knew that passing the law in 1913 hinged on the fact that some people who were to vote for it knew less. If there was "an evil" it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer? I also would need to know about feasible alternatives to demand a change. In case of Obama Care I knew that it was written in such a way so insurance companies would get their share and I know of a viable alternative where we could exclude insurance companies and make less expensive and broader system. In the case of banking and money creation I can imagine some alternatives like: (1) just nationalize FED and make it really federal or (2) use gold as standard. I do not see however how either or both of these options would be necessarily significantly better.

    "Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin."

    While I like the idea of sin in this respect unfortunately I can't imagine a system where loans are made w/o some fee being charged for it. So it all comes to the question of how the fee is calculated and justified. What formula? The interest can be looked at as just a fee. In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest. Even Catholic Church at some point had to redefine usury as an excessive (usurious) interests rates. The question is what is excessive. So if there is a sin it must be in the intent only.

    "David Graeber’s book Debt"

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter

    The author claims that debt and credit historically appeared before money, which itself appeared before barter. This is the opposite of the narrative given in standard economics texts dating back to Adam Smith. To support this, he cites numerous historical, ethnographic and archaeological studies. He also claims that the standard economics texts cite no evidence for suggesting that barter came before money, credit and debt, and he has seen no credible reports suggesting such.
     
    just does not make sense.
    , @Talha

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin
     
    Some people still get this - this is very hopeful. For your consideration:
    “De Vitry didn’t care whether the rate was high or low, because the Church’s position was that extracting a single cent of interest was evil. The roots of this revulsion run deep, and across cultures. Vedic law in Ancient India condemned usury, and rulers routinely capped interest rates from Ancient Mesopotamia to Ancient Greece. In Politics, Aristotle described usury as ‘the birth of money from money’, and claimed it was unnatural because money was sterile and should not ‘breed’.”

    https://aeon.co/essays/how-did-usury-stop-being-a-sin-and-become-respectable-finance

    Your posts on sin, hope and forgiveness were wonderful to read - please keep encouraging people to not be consumed by their inner demons - it is a message that humanity is in desperate need of.

    Peace, much respect and do not deprive me of your prayers.
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  138. @Delinquent Snail
    I could be wrong here, but didnt saudi arabia exist before isreal? And im not talking about the official start date in the 40s. Isreal was in the making in the 1890s. But didnt saudi arabia have a treaty with the US in the 1850s. So wouldnt it be isreal that learned from saudi arabia? And then took ut to the next level....

    Had some time and looked up saudi arabia. Founded much later then i thought. What gulf state was america buddy-buddy with in the mid 19c? I remember reading about it in high school history…… It wasnt a large section. There was no war involving america over there so it wasnt talked about. Now that i think about it, history class was just war after war after war….. Huh. Small blips about the sociopolitical and economic parts here and there, but mostly it was about americas near conatant warfare. Either America is a bloodthirsty nation or the authors of the book were just priming us for future conflict by only focusing on the conflict, not showing another side of history.

    Or maybe humans are just naturally set on “murder my neighbor”….

    Its late, i should sleep….

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  139. lavoisier says: • Website
    @NoseytheDuke
    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here's what we do know for certain about Iran...

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.

    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran’s Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah’s than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights."

    Is this a joke? Obama? Really? -- For any sane person, Obama is a FRAUD and war criminal and a pure case of "anti-constitutional scholar." Here is Obama' "conception" of human rights: "Billions of dollars’ worth of arms against Syria," by Thierry Meyssan, http://www.voltairenet.org/article197144.html
    "Over the last seven years, several billion dollars’ worth of armament has been illegally introduced into Syria – a fact which in itself is enough to disprove the myth according to which this war is a democratic revolution. Numerous documents attest to the fact that the traffic was organised by General David Petraeus, first of all in public, via the CIA, of which he was the director, then privately, via the financial company KKR with the aid of certain senior civil servants. Thus the conflict, which was initially an imperialist operation by the United States and the United Kingdom, became a private capitalist operation..."

    Is this story (or a story of Libya under the tender care of Obama-Clinton team) a blueprint for your passionately-desired "truly nascent democracy" in Iran? Thanks but no thanks.

    , @KA
    1 Cuban emigre' is not the club you go to to discuss Castro. Iranian emigre' community , you don't go to to know about the realities comparison between Shah regime and current system .

    2 Esence Green revolution wa captured by Fox News when it photoshopped pictures and transposed events .

    3 one of the reasons , sanction is placed is to cause first scarcity of foods , fuel, medications, and ingredients for daily livings - then wait for the inevitable chaos, riot,anger and protests by the citizen . THIS IS THE STATED OBJECTIVE IF THE SANCTION PROMOTING NEOCON RUN GOVERNMNET .

    4 Think of America - will some stray incidents protesting against Bush jr or Trump elections lead to UN meddling ? Particularly after some of those agitators ending in jail , getting their faces smashed, and landing in long term incarceration , a powerful nation can easily invoke R2P and attack America on the basis it attacked Syria , Libya and from your argument should have done something about Green Mevement.
    , @Art
    Lavoisier - A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    Will the Iranian mullahs give up power without a bloody fight? Most likely not. There is an alternative.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.

    Peace --- Art
    , @MEexpert
    You are a total fraud.

    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.
     
    How kind of you.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.
     
    This one paragraph tells me a lot about your knowledge of Iran and Iranian people. It is full of unsubstantiated charges. There have been elections in Iran every four years since 1979. In 2017, more than 70% of the people voted in the election and the president was elected with 56% of the popular vote. If these voters were not "Iranian people," where did these votes come from?

    Please show me one country that has a 100% record of defending human rights. Aren't human rights violated in the US every day? And don't even talk about human rights violations by the US of people in other nations. Ask the women of this country and they will tell you that they are discriminated in this country, in jobs, in pay, in promotions, etc. US is the only country where an Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) to the US constitution was proposed and failed to pass. Since when treating animals nicely is the precondition for leadership of any country? For your information, it is not the Iranian leadership that has torture centers around the world but your own US government.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.
     
    The Iranian people got their country back in 1979 when they kicked out the Shah. This regime's only crime is that it has not bowed to the whims of the US and Europe and has challenged Israel's hegemony in the Middle East. The leadership of Iran is more rational than the leadership of the US. The President and the congress of the United States is bought and paid for by the Jewish/neocon money. Each one is tripping over the other to appease Israel and the neocons.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic.
     
    I too have had personal and professional relationship with the Iranian people since before the Iranian revolution. The only people who complained about the revolution are those who have been deprived of the opportunity to plunder the wealth of the Iranian people. They fled the country to escape prosecution for their crimes. No regime has 100% people support. Iranian regime is no exception.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah’s than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.
     
    This statement tells me that you know nothing about present day Iran and its government. I don't believe you have ever been to Iran and filming the green movement is a blatant lie.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.
     
    This disclaimer followed by your asinine statements told me right away that the only sources of your information about Iran have been the Shah loyalists, the MEK supporters and the mainstream media. Your post has been full of canned terms, such as human rights violations, savagery, mistreatment of women, and so on. You have not paid any attention to the popular elections every four years of the parliament and the presidency of the country. These elections are monitored by a group of international watchers. Even the election of 2009 was shown to have been properly conducted in spite of the efforts of the CIA and its cronies to cause disruptions, protests, and spread of misinformation.
    , @anon
    When it comes to terrorists, “you have to take out their families,” Trump said.
    Others argue that civilian deaths cannot be avoided. Lieutenant General Stephen Townsend, the commander of coalition forces, said during a press conference last March that civilian deaths result from the fog of war. “And this is why it’s not a war crime to accidentally kill civilians,” Townsend said, in a misinterpretation of the law. https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/21/killing-civilians-in-iraq-and-syria/
    The best human right the military power can buy .
    , @anon
    One Pentagon official who helped plan the bombing campaign observed,


    People say, “You didn’t recognize that it was going to have an effect on water or sewage.” Well, what were we trying to do with sanctions — help out the Iraqi people? No. What we were doing with the attacks on infrastructure was to accelerate the effect of the sanctions.

    Col. John Warden III, deputy director of strategy for the Air Force, observed,


    Saddam Hussein cannot restore his own electricity. He needs help. If there are political objectives that the UN coalition has, it can say, “Saddam, when you agree to do these things, we will allow people to come in and fix your electricity.” It gives us long-term leverage.

    Another Air Force planner observed,


    We wanted to let people know, “Get rid of this guy and we’ll be more than happy to assist in rebuilding. We’re not going to tolerate Saddam Hussein or his regime. Fix that, and we’ll fix your electricity.”

    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:


    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/iraqi-sanctions-american-intentions-blameless-carnage-part-1/


    Might has wrecked the societies . Might will pay the mightier back in same currency.

    The most humane democratic freedom loving open economy free capitalism - Wait what else ? Judaeo Christian Values ? Founding father's fight against Tyranny? Not enough ! What about bringing peace to the farthest reach of the world. Sounds good-- Lets go and attack another neighborhood!!

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  140. annamaria says:
    @NoseytheDuke
    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here's what we do know for certain about Iran...

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.

    Thank you for giving the lesson to this trolling Israel-firster.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Praise from you is praise indeed, thank you.
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  141. annamaria says:
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    “A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.”

    Is this a joke? Obama? Really? — For any sane person, Obama is a FRAUD and war criminal and a pure case of “anti-constitutional scholar.” Here is Obama’ “conception” of human rights: “Billions of dollars’ worth of arms against Syria,” by Thierry Meyssan, http://www.voltairenet.org/article197144.html
    “Over the last seven years, several billion dollars’ worth of armament has been illegally introduced into Syria – a fact which in itself is enough to disprove the myth according to which this war is a democratic revolution. Numerous documents attest to the fact that the traffic was organised by General David Petraeus, first of all in public, via the CIA, of which he was the director, then privately, via the financial company KKR with the aid of certain senior civil servants. Thus the conflict, which was initially an imperialist operation by the United States and the United Kingdom, became a private capitalist operation…”

    Is this story (or a story of Libya under the tender care of Obama-Clinton team) a blueprint for your passionately-desired “truly nascent democracy” in Iran? Thanks but no thanks.

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  142. @Anon
    Our Blessed Lord is of plenty of use to Fascists (but of none to Nazis). Take away the out-and-out Marxist elements of Fascism and what you have left is not irreconcilable to Christianity. This is more or less what many of the actual Fascists (and Nazis) concluded.

    Otherwise, thanks for the information.

    Are you referring to Spain and Italy? They did try to reconcile Fascism with the Church, but of course they still silenced any clergy who said anything they didn’t like. But then, so did England’s Henry II.

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  143. KenH says:

    If the Iranians just play for time most of the U.S. military will be comprised of transgendered, homosexual and cross dressing soldiers in the not to distant future. Even the famed “Mad Dog” is on board with this.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Even the famed “Mad Dog” is on board with this.
     
    You've got to be kidding me...

    Well, I guess no neo-Qizilbashi is he. Good news is, this will hopefully mean the end to empire.

    Peace.
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  144. KA says:
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    1 Cuban emigre’ is not the club you go to to discuss Castro. Iranian emigre’ community , you don’t go to to know about the realities comparison between Shah regime and current system .

    2 Esence Green revolution wa captured by Fox News when it photoshopped pictures and transposed events .

    3 one of the reasons , sanction is placed is to cause first scarcity of foods , fuel, medications, and ingredients for daily livings – then wait for the inevitable chaos, riot,anger and protests by the citizen . THIS IS THE STATED OBJECTIVE IF THE SANCTION PROMOTING NEOCON RUN GOVERNMNET .

    4 Think of America – will some stray incidents protesting against Bush jr or Trump elections lead to UN meddling ? Particularly after some of those agitators ending in jail , getting their faces smashed, and landing in long term incarceration , a powerful nation can easily invoke R2P and attack America on the basis it attacked Syria , Libya and from your argument should have done something about Green Mevement.

    Read More
    • Replies: @L.K
    Good points, but this 'lavoisier' troll is up to no good.

    It's not the first time this pest states as his basic argument re how bad the current Iranian government must be, the fact that his Iranian émigré buddies have told him so.

    I've already told him this is not representative of the Iranian people... to no avail.

    He'll just keep repeating this mantra.
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  145. Talha says:
    @KenH
    If the Iranians just play for time most of the U.S. military will be comprised of transgendered, homosexual and cross dressing soldiers in the not to distant future. Even the famed "Mad Dog" is on board with this.

    Even the famed “Mad Dog” is on board with this.

    You’ve got to be kidding me…

    Well, I guess no neo-Qizilbashi is he. Good news is, this will hopefully mean the end to empire.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @KenH
    Months ago I read articles that stated Mattis would implement Obama's transgender order. Now it appears he has delayed the implementation by six months probably under pressure from Trump who opposed it.
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  146. Art says:
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    Will the Iranian mullahs give up power without a bloody fight? Most likely not. There is an alternative.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.
     
    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.
     
    And this paragraph confirmed that you are ignorant. The Iranian people, more than 70% of them, just voted for a Mullah, Hujattul Islam Sheikh Hassan Rouhani, who won the election with 56% of the over 40 million votes cast.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.
     
    Serious matters like not treating dogs like cockroaches or loving animals.
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  147. KenH says:
    @Talha

    Even the famed “Mad Dog” is on board with this.
     
    You've got to be kidding me...

    Well, I guess no neo-Qizilbashi is he. Good news is, this will hopefully mean the end to empire.

    Peace.

    Months ago I read articles that stated Mattis would implement Obama’s transgender order. Now it appears he has delayed the implementation by six months probably under pressure from Trump who opposed it.

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  148. MEexpert says:
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    You are a total fraud.

    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    How kind of you.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    This one paragraph tells me a lot about your knowledge of Iran and Iranian people. It is full of unsubstantiated charges. There have been elections in Iran every four years since 1979. In 2017, more than 70% of the people voted in the election and the president was elected with 56% of the popular vote. If these voters were not “Iranian people,” where did these votes come from?

    Please show me one country that has a 100% record of defending human rights. Aren’t human rights violated in the US every day? And don’t even talk about human rights violations by the US of people in other nations. Ask the women of this country and they will tell you that they are discriminated in this country, in jobs, in pay, in promotions, etc. US is the only country where an Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) to the US constitution was proposed and failed to pass. Since when treating animals nicely is the precondition for leadership of any country? For your information, it is not the Iranian leadership that has torture centers around the world but your own US government.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    The Iranian people got their country back in 1979 when they kicked out the Shah. This regime’s only crime is that it has not bowed to the whims of the US and Europe and has challenged Israel’s hegemony in the Middle East. The leadership of Iran is more rational than the leadership of the US. The President and the congress of the United States is bought and paid for by the Jewish/neocon money. Each one is tripping over the other to appease Israel and the neocons.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic.

    I too have had personal and professional relationship with the Iranian people since before the Iranian revolution. The only people who complained about the revolution are those who have been deprived of the opportunity to plunder the wealth of the Iranian people. They fled the country to escape prosecution for their crimes. No regime has 100% people support. Iranian regime is no exception.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah’s than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    This statement tells me that you know nothing about present day Iran and its government. I don’t believe you have ever been to Iran and filming the green movement is a blatant lie.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    This disclaimer followed by your asinine statements told me right away that the only sources of your information about Iran have been the Shah loyalists, the MEK supporters and the mainstream media. Your post has been full of canned terms, such as human rights violations, savagery, mistreatment of women, and so on. You have not paid any attention to the popular elections every four years of the parliament and the presidency of the country. These elections are monitored by a group of international watchers. Even the election of 2009 was shown to have been properly conducted in spite of the efforts of the CIA and its cronies to cause disruptions, protests, and spread of misinformation.

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    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Free and fair elections in Iran are totally rigged. Candidates are vetted by the Islamic theocrats for fidelity to rule by the theocrats.

    Any semblance of a republic is a fraud.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

    You are one sick person to defend such a despicable regime.

    There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

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  149. MEexpert says:
    @Art
    Lavoisier - A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    Will the Iranian mullahs give up power without a bloody fight? Most likely not. There is an alternative.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.

    Peace --- Art

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.

    And this paragraph confirmed that you are ignorant. The Iranian people, more than 70% of them, just voted for a Mullah, Hujattul Islam Sheikh Hassan Rouhani, who won the election with 56% of the over 40 million votes cast.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.

    Serious matters like not treating dogs like cockroaches or loving animals.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.
     

    Me thinks this "expert" is a Jew Matrix boy - we are all stupid beasts to them.

    He is standard hasbara 101 trained - a real zombie - he is one of the 15,000,000 strong hasbara crew creating chaos for Israel and Jew money.

    Shalom - little brown shirt.

    Peace --- Art

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  150. anon says: • Disclaimer

    “Many prominent American supporters have accepted fees of $15,000 to $30,000 to give speeches to the group. They also have accepted posh, all-expenses-paid trips to attend MEK events in Paris and other locales. Former Pennsylvania Gov. Ed Rendell confirmed in March 2012 that the MEK had paid him a total of $150,000 to $160,000, and it appeared that other “A-list” backers had been rewarded in a similar fashion”. http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-skeptics/group-hopes-push-america-toward-regime-change-iran-21569?page=2

    Saddam didn’t harbor Al Quida but MEK .MEK were in cahoot with saddam not Al Quida for which Saddam was accused and killed.

    MEK killed Americans.
    MEK is cult like organizations hated by Iranians .

    Money for the terror outfits is still a clear support for terrorism
    Money taken from terror outfit is also akin to incitement to terrorism.

    Terrorists are walking around openly America just as Al Quida hijackers were before but out of sight at least.

    Question is where money for MEK comes from ? Is it American money taht in roundabout way ends up in MEK coffers who then buys the Congressmen and Senators.

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  151. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    When it comes to terrorists, “you have to take out their families,” Trump said.
    Others argue that civilian deaths cannot be avoided. Lieutenant General Stephen Townsend, the commander of coalition forces, said during a press conference last March that civilian deaths result from the fog of war. “And this is why it’s not a war crime to accidentally kill civilians,” Townsend said, in a misinterpretation of the law. https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/07/21/killing-civilians-in-iraq-and-syria/
    The best human right the military power can buy .

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  152. Maryam Rajavi? MEK? Are they out of their wits? Unless their plan is to kill two third of the Iranian population (One third are infants and elderly), then these whores of Zion can install the MEK cult and its priestess!

    Any other time in history these cuckolds, Bolton, Gingrich, Giuliani, and most of those serving in all of our three branches of government, would have lost their heads for treason.

    Can anyone believe that a so called judge, passed a sentence against Iran and fined them $11 billion for 9/11? It is so embarrassing, that the Ziomedia kept quite. Are we going insane? Are we a brainless giant that just execute orders from a smart midget?
    Smash everything, including killing our own so the midget’s greed can be satisfied?

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  153. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @lavoisier
    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic. I also made a short film about what happened to the nation during Iran's Green Movement. I was acutely aware of how much murderous brutality and torture these brave men and women experienced in their effort to free their country from the noble Islamic theocrats and their militarized thugs. And I was appalled that Obama did not voice any support for their peaceful efforts during that time. A word of support from Obama could have turned the tide and a truly nascent democracy could have sprung up in Iran. Note, I believe Iran may well be capable of such a thing as historically it was the Persians who were so far along in their conception of human rights.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah's than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.

    One Pentagon official who helped plan the bombing campaign observed,

    People say, “You didn’t recognize that it was going to have an effect on water or sewage.” Well, what were we trying to do with sanctions — help out the Iraqi people? No. What we were doing with the attacks on infrastructure was to accelerate the effect of the sanctions.

    Col. John Warden III, deputy director of strategy for the Air Force, observed,

    Saddam Hussein cannot restore his own electricity. He needs help. If there are political objectives that the UN coalition has, it can say, “Saddam, when you agree to do these things, we will allow people to come in and fix your electricity.” It gives us long-term leverage.

    Another Air Force planner observed,

    We wanted to let people know, “Get rid of this guy and we’ll be more than happy to assist in rebuilding. We’re not going to tolerate Saddam Hussein or his regime. Fix that, and we’ll fix your electricity.”

    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:

    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/iraqi-sanctions-american-intentions-blameless-carnage-part-1/

    Might has wrecked the societies . Might will pay the mightier back in same currency.

    The most humane democratic freedom loving open economy free capitalism – Wait what else ? Judaeo Christian Values ? Founding father’s fight against Tyranny? Not enough ! What about bringing peace to the farthest reach of the world. Sounds good– Lets go and attack another neighborhood!!

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonymous
    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:

    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    Wow!!!! That is potentially problematic,isn't it ? Will Iraqis and now Syrian and Libyan will use this argument against American people one day?????
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  154. @annamaria
    Thank you for giving the lesson to this trolling Israel-firster.

    Praise from you is praise indeed, thank you.

    Read More
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  155. anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    One Pentagon official who helped plan the bombing campaign observed,


    People say, “You didn’t recognize that it was going to have an effect on water or sewage.” Well, what were we trying to do with sanctions — help out the Iraqi people? No. What we were doing with the attacks on infrastructure was to accelerate the effect of the sanctions.

    Col. John Warden III, deputy director of strategy for the Air Force, observed,


    Saddam Hussein cannot restore his own electricity. He needs help. If there are political objectives that the UN coalition has, it can say, “Saddam, when you agree to do these things, we will allow people to come in and fix your electricity.” It gives us long-term leverage.

    Another Air Force planner observed,


    We wanted to let people know, “Get rid of this guy and we’ll be more than happy to assist in rebuilding. We’re not going to tolerate Saddam Hussein or his regime. Fix that, and we’ll fix your electricity.”

    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:


    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    https://www.fff.org/explore-freedom/article/iraqi-sanctions-american-intentions-blameless-carnage-part-1/


    Might has wrecked the societies . Might will pay the mightier back in same currency.

    The most humane democratic freedom loving open economy free capitalism - Wait what else ? Judaeo Christian Values ? Founding father's fight against Tyranny? Not enough ! What about bringing peace to the farthest reach of the world. Sounds good-- Lets go and attack another neighborhood!!

    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:

    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    Wow!!!! That is potentially problematic,isn’t it ? Will Iraqis and now Syrian and Libyan will use this argument against American people one day?????

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    The Word: "US-NATO Holocaust in Iraq: The Depopulation and Destruction of Mosul" http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-nato-holocaust-in-iraq-the-depopulation-and-destruction-of-mosul/5598793
    "...9 million Iraqi deaths from Anglo-American violence or violently-imposed deprivation certainly constitutes an Iraqi Holocaust...
    The warmongers successfully de-populated and destroyed Iraq’s second largest city. The terrorists (the supposed enemies) — all armed and supported by the West [2]—and the terror bombing [3], including the use of illegal, weaponized white phosphorus munitions, and carpet bombing – achieved their criminal objectives. The big picture is chaos and destruction, and genocide...
    Iraq is being partitioned and destroyed. “Creative Chaos” [5], a term coined by neo-con Condoleeza Rice equals holocaust and genocide. This is the evidence-based reality."
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  156. Art says:
    @MEexpert

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.
     
    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.

    The Iranian people must vote their way to a rational country. They must make a common shared determination too not vote for anyone who supports the mullah political rule on some matter. Only in the face of total opposition to them, will there be a peaceful transition of power.
     
    And this paragraph confirmed that you are ignorant. The Iranian people, more than 70% of them, just voted for a Mullah, Hujattul Islam Sheikh Hassan Rouhani, who won the election with 56% of the over 40 million votes cast.

    The vote must not be directly about the mullahs themselves – but about some other matter that the people and the mullahs disagree.
     
    Serious matters like not treating dogs like cockroaches or loving animals.

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.

    He is standard hasbara 101 trained – a real zombie – he is one of the 15,000,000 strong hasbara crew creating chaos for Israel and Jew money.

    Shalom – little brown shirt.

    Peace — Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.
     
    Not even close my friend, but thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.
    , @L.K
    Now, now, arty boy, anybody who has read MEexpert's posts knows he is the opposite of hasbara...
    This is clear even from just what he posted under this article...

    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    MEexpert is right about you. You don't know shit about Iran and its government just like you don't know jack about China, Germany and so on. But you gotta have an opinion eh?

    Instead of talking nonsense about countries and peoples you do not understand, you might do better by taking a long, hard look in the mirror... things do not look so peachy in the ZioUSA:

    Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

    The US is an oligarchy, study concludes
    Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html
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  157. annamaria says:
    @anonymous
    The Post explained the Pentagon’s rationale for punishing the Iraqi people:

    Among the justifications offered now, particularly by the Air Force in recent briefings, is that Iraqi civilians were not blameless for Saddam’s invasion of Kuwait. “The definition of innocents gets to be a little bit unclear,” said a senior Air Force officer, noting that many Iraqis supported the invasion of Kuwait. “They do live there, and ultimately the people have some control over what goes on in their country.”

    Wow!!!! That is potentially problematic,isn't it ? Will Iraqis and now Syrian and Libyan will use this argument against American people one day?????

    The Word: “US-NATO Holocaust in Iraq: The Depopulation and Destruction of Mosul” http://www.globalresearch.ca/us-nato-holocaust-in-iraq-the-depopulation-and-destruction-of-mosul/5598793
    “…9 million Iraqi deaths from Anglo-American violence or violently-imposed deprivation certainly constitutes an Iraqi Holocaust…
    The warmongers successfully de-populated and destroyed Iraq’s second largest city. The terrorists (the supposed enemies) — all armed and supported by the West [2]—and the terror bombing [3], including the use of illegal, weaponized white phosphorus munitions, and carpet bombing – achieved their criminal objectives. The big picture is chaos and destruction, and genocide…
    Iraq is being partitioned and destroyed. “Creative Chaos” [5], a term coined by neo-con Condoleeza Rice equals holocaust and genocide. This is the evidence-based reality.”

    Read More
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  158. MEexpert says:
    @Art

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.
     

    Me thinks this "expert" is a Jew Matrix boy - we are all stupid beasts to them.

    He is standard hasbara 101 trained - a real zombie - he is one of the 15,000,000 strong hasbara crew creating chaos for Israel and Jew money.

    Shalom - little brown shirt.

    Peace --- Art

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.

    Not even close my friend, but thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.

    Not even close my friend, but thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.
     

    I am sorry - It appears that I have gotten it wrong – I have made an error - I apologize to you and all others who read my comment.

    I do not believe you are a Jew Matrix.

    Art

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  159. L.K says:
    @KA
    1 Cuban emigre' is not the club you go to to discuss Castro. Iranian emigre' community , you don't go to to know about the realities comparison between Shah regime and current system .

    2 Esence Green revolution wa captured by Fox News when it photoshopped pictures and transposed events .

    3 one of the reasons , sanction is placed is to cause first scarcity of foods , fuel, medications, and ingredients for daily livings - then wait for the inevitable chaos, riot,anger and protests by the citizen . THIS IS THE STATED OBJECTIVE IF THE SANCTION PROMOTING NEOCON RUN GOVERNMNET .

    4 Think of America - will some stray incidents protesting against Bush jr or Trump elections lead to UN meddling ? Particularly after some of those agitators ending in jail , getting their faces smashed, and landing in long term incarceration , a powerful nation can easily invoke R2P and attack America on the basis it attacked Syria , Libya and from your argument should have done something about Green Mevement.

    Good points, but this ‘lavoisier’ troll is up to no good.

    It’s not the first time this pest states as his basic argument re how bad the current Iranian government must be, the fact that his Iranian émigré buddies have told him so.

    I’ve already told him this is not representative of the Iranian people… to no avail.

    He’ll just keep repeating this mantra.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    People under a really restrictive government always think it's good. Hence the popularity of "democracy" with Europeans and Americans and communism with North Koreans.
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  160. L.K says:
    @Art

    Lavoisier – A fine informative comment – Thanks.

    If you found this post informative then you are a totally ignorant person.
     

    Me thinks this "expert" is a Jew Matrix boy - we are all stupid beasts to them.

    He is standard hasbara 101 trained - a real zombie - he is one of the 15,000,000 strong hasbara crew creating chaos for Israel and Jew money.

    Shalom - little brown shirt.

    Peace --- Art

    Now, now, arty boy, anybody who has read MEexpert’s posts knows he is the opposite of hasbara…
    This is clear even from just what he posted under this article…

    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    MEexpert is right about you. You don’t know shit about Iran and its government just like you don’t know jack about China, Germany and so on. But you gotta have an opinion eh?

    Instead of talking nonsense about countries and peoples you do not understand, you might do better by taking a long, hard look in the mirror… things do not look so peachy in the ZioUSA:

    Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy

    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

    The US is an oligarchy, study concludes
    Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art
    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    You do not know the meaning of "lying." There is a difference between lying and making an error.

    Seeing someone trash the people of Iran is a red flag to me. I see a Matrix man - Jew or otherwise. I see someone justifying war for Israel.

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free - they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)

    In this case I was wrong. I apologized to him. I apologize to you.

    Art
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  161. L.K says:
    @NoseytheDuke
    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here's what we do know for certain about Iran...

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.

    Good points, Nosey.

    BTW, given the scarcity of Iranian sources in English about Iran, for all of us who do not speak Farsi, I recommend the site of Prof. Ismael H. Zadeh:

    https://ismaelhossein-zadeh.com/publications/

    Re the strange relationship between ISIS & the ZUSA, writes Zadeh:

    The U.S. approach to ISIS would be better understood when it is viewed in the context of its overall objectives in the region—and beyond. That overriding objective, shared and reinforced by its client states, is to undermine or eliminate “the axis of resistance,” consisting of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and, to a lesser extent, Shia forces in Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Achievement of this goal would also be achievement of another, even broader, goal: undermining Russia’s influence and alliances in the region and, by extension, in other parts of the world—for example, its critically important role within both the Shanghai Cooperation Council (China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan) and the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa).

    To intervene in order to achieve these goals, the U.S. and its allies need pretexts and/or enemies—even if it means inventing or manufacturing such enemies. Without ISIS, resumption of U.S. military operations in Iraq and extension of those operations into Syria would have been difficult to justify to the American people.

    Also, try to find and read Dr. Sniegoski’s “Iran as a Twentieth Century Victim: 1900 Through the Aftermath of World War II”, you’ll have a better understanding of what this country has had to endure for over 100 years.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    The whole area has been victimised again and again in the last century and in this one. It has taken many years for me to see beyond the received history of my childhood and now, since so much archeologically priceless Mesopotamian history has been needlessly destroyed since GWBush's invasion and the resulting regional chaos, it is lost forever. Perhaps it was destroyed by design, to ensure that the dubious narratives of the bible endure beyond all else. Perhaps that is another reason to victimise Iran where evidence of ancient civilisations endures.
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  162. @L.K
    Good points, Nosey.

    BTW, given the scarcity of Iranian sources in English about Iran, for all of us who do not speak Farsi, I recommend the site of Prof. Ismael H. Zadeh:
    https://ismaelhossein-zadeh.com/publications/

    Re the strange relationship between ISIS & the ZUSA, writes Zadeh:

    The U.S. approach to ISIS would be better understood when it is viewed in the context of its overall objectives in the region—and beyond. That overriding objective, shared and reinforced by its client states, is to undermine or eliminate “the axis of resistance,” consisting of Iran, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas and, to a lesser extent, Shia forces in Iraq, Yemen, Bahrain and Saudi Arabia. Achievement of this goal would also be achievement of another, even broader, goal: undermining Russia’s influence and alliances in the region and, by extension, in other parts of the world—for example, its critically important role within both the Shanghai Cooperation Council (China, Russia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, and Uzbekistan) and the BRICS countries (Brazil, Russia, India, China, and South Africa).

    To intervene in order to achieve these goals, the U.S. and its allies need pretexts and/or enemies—even if it means inventing or manufacturing such enemies. Without ISIS, resumption of U.S. military operations in Iraq and extension of those operations into Syria would have been difficult to justify to the American people.
     
    Also, try to find and read Dr. Sniegoski's "Iran as a Twentieth Century Victim: 1900 Through the Aftermath of World War II", you'll have a better understanding of what this country has had to endure for over 100 years.

    The whole area has been victimised again and again in the last century and in this one. It has taken many years for me to see beyond the received history of my childhood and now, since so much archeologically priceless Mesopotamian history has been needlessly destroyed since GWBush’s invasion and the resulting regional chaos, it is lost forever. Perhaps it was destroyed by design, to ensure that the dubious narratives of the bible endure beyond all else. Perhaps that is another reason to victimise Iran where evidence of ancient civilisations endures.

    Read More
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  163. Art says:
    @MEexpert

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.
     
    Not even close my friend, but thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.

    Me thinks this “expert” is a Jew Matrix boy – we are all stupid beasts to them.

    Not even close my friend, but thank you for confirming my assessment of your ignorance.

    I am sorry – It appears that I have gotten it wrong – I have made an error – I apologize to you and all others who read my comment.

    I do not believe you are a Jew Matrix.

    Art

    Read More
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  164. Art says:
    @L.K
    Now, now, arty boy, anybody who has read MEexpert's posts knows he is the opposite of hasbara...
    This is clear even from just what he posted under this article...

    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    MEexpert is right about you. You don't know shit about Iran and its government just like you don't know jack about China, Germany and so on. But you gotta have an opinion eh?

    Instead of talking nonsense about countries and peoples you do not understand, you might do better by taking a long, hard look in the mirror... things do not look so peachy in the ZioUSA:

    Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
    http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

    The US is an oligarchy, study concludes
    Report by researchers from Princeton and Northwestern universities suggests that US political system serves special interest organisations, instead of voters
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/10769041/The-US-is-an-oligarchy-study-concludes.html

    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    You do not know the meaning of “lying.” There is a difference between lying and making an error.

    Seeing someone trash the people of Iran is a red flag to me. I see a Matrix man – Jew or otherwise. I see someone justifying war for Israel.

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free – they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)

    In this case I was wrong. I apologized to him. I apologize to you.

    Art

    Read More
    • Replies: @SolontoCroesus

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free – they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)
     
    Ah, yes.
    We are the government and we are here to save you, to make you just as free as Americans are

    https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/u-s-lawmakers-seek-to-criminally-outlaw-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

    Try this different perspective:

    Iran is a bright and shining light for other countries to follow, like Venezuela, Brazil, North Korea - even Europe, those in Europe who are tired of the Washington dictate, but so far haven’t dared taking the actions needed to gain back their national sovereignty. http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4740/Iran-is-a-bright-and-shining-light-for-other-countries-to-follow
     
    In addition -- a few months ago The Saker featured this article:

    Sacred Communities and The Emergent Multipolar Landscape, by Blake Archer
    http://thesaker.is/sacred-communities-and-the-emergent-multipolar-landscape/

    I became acquainted with Blake Archer several years ago when he posted a comment about how so many Muslims in Iran, like himself, appreciate being part of a nation/community that values their Islamic principles. Archer was working on the book(s) that are referenced in the Saker piece; they're a little dense for my level of understanding, but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.
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  165. Art, clearly the American people are given false choices by their leaders too, look at the Repuglican lineup for the presidential nomination last year, another Bush even! Another Bush FFS! What a bunch of ignorant and servile losers that lineup was.

    Look how the Dumbocruds passed over the people’s choice that probably would have won, Bernie, so that another lying and destructive Clinton would be called upon to “serve” the people. Another Clinton! FFS again! It’s all a charade, mate. A sick PR game. Chelsea will get a turn soon enough, you can count on it.

    No man is more enslaved than he who falsely believes himself to be free. Goethe.

    It is long past time for Americans to concern themselves with their own freedoms and let people such as the Iranians worry about theirs.

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  166. Rurik says: • Website
    @TomSchmidt
    I assume you've read The Creature from Jekyll Island, about the Fed. I've absorbed that message and had the negative view of the Fed. Stockman gives a very interesting inside baseball view of the budgeting process in the Reagan years, and of course the creation of the Fed. (How we came up with the massive, ridiculous amount we spent on defense in the early 80s, creating an arsenal that was just lying around for people like Bush 41 and 43 to use vivisecting the Middle East is worth the price of the book). My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn't evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin. The nation based on that economy, and the military supported by it, are headed for a fall. Belloc noted that many Christians converted to Islam at the time of the initial conquest to escape debt. The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    If you haven't read David Graeber's book Debt yet, do so in the next month. The cycle of debt and renunciation has gone one since Sumeria and we are nearing another peak and jubilee of debt forgiveness.

    Hey Tom,

    My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn’t evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    I think it was evil from conception. There were many American patriots who knew the dangers of a privately-owned central bank. Indeed, I think that was one of the main, if not the main reason the founders fought the American Revolutionary war against England, because King George demanded that the colonies use Bank of England debt based currency for trade rather than colonial script. From what I understand, the war of 1812 was nothing less than Rothchild sending in the troop to enslave USA to British (Rothschild) central bank / debt.

    Andrew Jackson’s battle with this “den of vipers & thieves” is famous, and it nearly cost him his life to a would-be assassin.

    And look how they snuck it in on Christmas eve, when they figured no one was watching.

    or the words of warning from so many

    “Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce.” — James A. Garfield, President of the United States

    “This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

    "From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

    "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency… I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency.” — Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913

    “History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it’s issuance.” — James Madison

    just a few..

    The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    I suspect they like the status quo, where Americans (and others) simply act as their debt slaves, as ((they)) ‘live off the fat of the land’, with the American people acting as their slaves or cannon fodder, as the case may be. While they lord it over everyone with their paper money, and use that paper money to buy up everything of consequence. And not one in ten thousand have the slightest clue as to the supreme swindle being perpetrated upon them… as its off to another kosher war.

    If you haven’t read David Graeber’s book Debt yet, do so in the next month.

    fascinating, thanks!

    a quick look at the book and its meaning took me to this Wikipage

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age

    In literature, Gore Vidal in his novel Creation covers much of this Axial Age through the fictional perspective of a Persian adventurer.

    another worthy book perhaps

    cheers

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    I think it was evil from conception. There were many American patriots who knew the dangers of a privately-owned central bank.

    I think the idea of controlling currency through force is the original evil. Used to share your opinion about the Fed. Stockman shows it as an attempt to create a decentralized (yes, really) Reserve banking system to deal with the liquidity issues created by a system based on borrowing short and lending long. In this sense, the Fed was to play the role of JP Morgan instopping future panics like the one in 1907 (major difference: Morgan had skin in the game, and only bailed out illiquid, not insolvent, debtors.) JP would die the same year as the Fed was created, so they put in place a system that was like JP without the swollen nose just in time.

    As we know, it did not work, largely because the bankers re-centralized the system to their advantage. I think it could never work for that reason, unless, to quote another founder, men were angels. The intervention is required, however, given the underlying instability of the banking system it is built on top of. THAT is evil, which requires subsequent fixes like making a Fed.

    I'll pickup a copy of the Axial Age. Thanks for the reference, Rurik.
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  167. annamaria says:

    Paul Craig Roberts names MIC and the Lobby as two main drivers of the slanderous and stupid Russiagate http://www.paulcraigroberts.org/2017/07/24/conspiracy-remove-trump-presidency-paul-craig-roberts/
    “…the success of this false and orchestrated story of Russian hacking, for which not a scrap of evidence exists, revealed to the military/security complex the opportunity to remove Trump and thus protect the oversized budget and power of the military/security complex that is threatened by Trump’s intention to normalize relations with Russia. It revealed to Israel the opportunity to put an end to Trump’s withdrawal of US interference in the Middle East, thus enabling Israel to continue to use the US military to clear away obstacles to Israeli expansion.”
    1. Money. 2. American money & limb.

    Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS): https://consortiumnews.com/2017/07/24/intel-vets-challenge-russia-hack-evidence/
    “Executive Summary: Forensic studies of “Russian hacking” into Democratic National Committee computers last year reveal that on July 5, 2016, data was leaked (not hacked) by a person with physical access to DNC computers, and then doctored to incriminate Russia.
    From the information available, we conclude that the same inside-DNC, copy/leak process was used at two different times, by two different entities, for two distinctly different purposes:
    -(1) an inside leak to WikiLeaks before Julian Assange announced on June 12, 2016, that he had DNC documents and planned to publish them (which he did on July 22) – the presumed objective being to expose strong DNC bias toward the Clinton candidacy; and
    -(2) a separate leak on July 5, 2016, to pre-emptively taint anything WikiLeaks might later publish by “showing” it came from a “Russian hack.”

    Read More
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  168. utu says:
    @TomSchmidt
    I assume you've read The Creature from Jekyll Island, about the Fed. I've absorbed that message and had the negative view of the Fed. Stockman gives a very interesting inside baseball view of the budgeting process in the Reagan years, and of course the creation of the Fed. (How we came up with the massive, ridiculous amount we spent on defense in the early 80s, creating an arsenal that was just lying around for people like Bush 41 and 43 to use vivisecting the Middle East is worth the price of the book). My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn't evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin. The nation based on that economy, and the military supported by it, are headed for a fall. Belloc noted that many Christians converted to Islam at the time of the initial conquest to escape debt. The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    If you haven't read David Graeber's book Debt yet, do so in the next month. The cycle of debt and renunciation has gone one since Sumeria and we are nearing another peak and jubilee of debt forgiveness.

    “it wasn’t evil from conception”

    This is an interesting issue. Certainly there were different layers of knowledge about the outcomes and consequences. There were some people who knew more and knew that passing the law in 1913 hinged on the fact that some people who were to vote for it knew less. If there was “an evil” it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer? I also would need to know about feasible alternatives to demand a change. In case of Obama Care I knew that it was written in such a way so insurance companies would get their share and I know of a viable alternative where we could exclude insurance companies and make less expensive and broader system. In the case of banking and money creation I can imagine some alternatives like: (1) just nationalize FED and make it really federal or (2) use gold as standard. I do not see however how either or both of these options would be necessarily significantly better.

    “Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin.”

    While I like the idea of sin in this respect unfortunately I can’t imagine a system where loans are made w/o some fee being charged for it. So it all comes to the question of how the fee is calculated and justified. What formula? The interest can be looked at as just a fee. In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest. Even Catholic Church at some point had to redefine usury as an excessive (usurious) interests rates. The question is what is excessive. So if there is a sin it must be in the intent only.

    “David Graeber’s book Debt”

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter

    The author claims that debt and credit historically appeared before money, which itself appeared before barter. This is the opposite of the narrative given in standard economics texts dating back to Adam Smith. To support this, he cites numerous historical, ethnographic and archaeological studies. He also claims that the standard economics texts cite no evidence for suggesting that barter came before money, credit and debt, and he has seen no credible reports suggesting such.

    just does not make sense.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey utu,

    In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest.
     
    If it is done correctly, then there are two ways of financing something (without getting into details). Nobody says businessmen need to put their money to use for others only out of the goodness of their hearts:
    1) The person with the cash buys an item and sells it to you over a period of time for an inflated price (in installment payments) - this is not usury - money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction); if you pay it earlier or later - the price remains the same.
    2) The person with the cash buys the item with you as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns). In this, he is a partner in ownership of the commodity or item.

    This is (surprisingly) a fairly concise explanation of the different business models (without going into details on differences of opinion, etc.):
    http://www.dummies.com/personal-finance/islamic-finance/islamic-finance-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/

    Either one of the transactions is different from your normal loan which is money for money over time. Yet either one of the above transactions can be made to look almost exactly like a usurious loan on paper if one wants to draw it up that way.

    Interest or usury is the bedrock of fiat currency - none of the Islamic financial models allow for this. And yes - practically every Muslim country in the world attempts to bypass these restrictions...and then we wonder why we're in such a mess.

    Peace.

    , @TomSchmidt
    I see that Talha has made an effort to explain Islamic finance. One thing you must remember about Islam: you are not allowed to make another Muslim a slave. Christians and Pagans are fair game in this regard. I beLieve in Judaism that Jews were only allowed to lend at interest to non-Jews.

    This is also the Thomist position. Debt has the ability to turn the debtor into a slave of the creditor. In Judaism, they addressed the issue by having a jubilee every 7 years, where debts were forgiven; this is where we get our 7-year bankruptcy record blight from.

    So, the question of usury is: does the creditor own a loan backed by collateral that is the exclusive backing of the loan, or is it backed by the earning capacity of the debtor? In the former case, it is not usury, no matter what interest rate is charged. In the latter case, the interest is usury, even if only .1% interest is charged. The lender has to more carefully evaluate the deal, as he has no ability to turn the debtor into a debt slave.

    Graeber points out in Debt that slavery returned to Western societies concomitant with the end of usury (oh, and Calvin and Luther were both steadfast against usury, but their followers adapted their beliefs to the age of conquest and empire).

    If there was “an evil” it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer?
    Yeah, that's the point. If it wasn't evil from the start matters little to how corrupted it has become. It needs to be replaced. Free banking, perhaps? The Fed was a reaction to the breakdown of a system that suffered crises over the 19th century, most of them caused by war.

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter Just does not make sense

    Graeber is an anthropologist, and he takes an anthropologist's view of Debt and economic issues. It lets you triangulate the issue from a different perspective. I understand your objection; it was exactly mine before reading the book. Graeber points out that the idea that money was invented after the failure of a barter system was a fairy tale invented by Adam Smith; there is no society on earth studied by anthropologists where this happened, and he details what happens in a barter ceremony in Australia in a true barter economy.

    This revelation alone is worth the reading.

    Once you come to see that, once again, the economists have just sanded away the edges of reality to fit their models, you start to see how the system we live under was built, with intellectuals singing dithyrambs to the wonders of the powers that be. The phrase "physics envy" describes mos of the intellectual ferment in economics.

    Last point you'll derive from the book: Adam Smith plagiarized the story of the pin factory. That, again, is worth the price of admission. The book is long, but you can probably obtain the audiobook from your local library. Listen to it; fill the empty time shopping or driving, and see if it doesn't radically alter your perspective. It did mine.
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  169. Talha says:
    @TomSchmidt
    I assume you've read The Creature from Jekyll Island, about the Fed. I've absorbed that message and had the negative view of the Fed. Stockman gives a very interesting inside baseball view of the budgeting process in the Reagan years, and of course the creation of the Fed. (How we came up with the massive, ridiculous amount we spent on defense in the early 80s, creating an arsenal that was just lying around for people like Bush 41 and 43 to use vivisecting the Middle East is worth the price of the book). My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn't evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin. The nation based on that economy, and the military supported by it, are headed for a fall. Belloc noted that many Christians converted to Islam at the time of the initial conquest to escape debt. The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.

    If you haven't read David Graeber's book Debt yet, do so in the next month. The cycle of debt and renunciation has gone one since Sumeria and we are nearing another peak and jubilee of debt forgiveness.

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin

    Some people still get this – this is very hopeful. For your consideration:
    “De Vitry didn’t care whether the rate was high or low, because the Church’s position was that extracting a single cent of interest was evil. The roots of this revulsion run deep, and across cultures. Vedic law in Ancient India condemned usury, and rulers routinely capped interest rates from Ancient Mesopotamia to Ancient Greece. In Politics, Aristotle described usury as ‘the birth of money from money’, and claimed it was unnatural because money was sterile and should not ‘breed’.”

    https://aeon.co/essays/how-did-usury-stop-being-a-sin-and-become-respectable-finance

    Your posts on sin, hope and forgiveness were wonderful to read – please keep encouraging people to not be consumed by their inner demons – it is a message that humanity is in desperate need of.

    Peace, much respect and do not deprive me of your prayers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    Thank you for the kindness of your comment, Talha.

    Interest in fact is not usury. For example, it is not usury to loan a man money to buy a house, secured by the house alone, a non-recourse loan. It IS usury to have debt secured not by assets but by the person of the debtor, literally turning him into a slave owned by the holder of debt.

    In this regard, the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005 was the worst thing done by George W Bush, in a litany of bad things. Especially sealing the doom of the kids who took out loans for degrees that cannot pay off (the stupidity of doing this is another issue. Stupidity should get punished; previously, it was by bankruptcy and denial of access to the credit markets for 7 years.) and cannot ever get from under the debt.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt who will try to make minimum payments for 25 years, and then have the balance forgiven. I advised instead that they move to the EU, where she can obtain citizenship, and then from a position of strength negotiate their unpayable debt with lenders. Trashing their credit in the USA will not likely harm them in the EU.

    Otherwise, a lot of our young will take the route of going to Islamic countries to escape the debt loads, as Christians in former Byzantine lands did at the initial Arab conquest.

    You might google Zippy Catholic's Usury FAQ for an overview of the issues from a Thomist perspective.
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  170. Talha says:
    @utu
    "it wasn’t evil from conception"

    This is an interesting issue. Certainly there were different layers of knowledge about the outcomes and consequences. There were some people who knew more and knew that passing the law in 1913 hinged on the fact that some people who were to vote for it knew less. If there was "an evil" it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer? I also would need to know about feasible alternatives to demand a change. In case of Obama Care I knew that it was written in such a way so insurance companies would get their share and I know of a viable alternative where we could exclude insurance companies and make less expensive and broader system. In the case of banking and money creation I can imagine some alternatives like: (1) just nationalize FED and make it really federal or (2) use gold as standard. I do not see however how either or both of these options would be necessarily significantly better.

    "Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin."

    While I like the idea of sin in this respect unfortunately I can't imagine a system where loans are made w/o some fee being charged for it. So it all comes to the question of how the fee is calculated and justified. What formula? The interest can be looked at as just a fee. In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest. Even Catholic Church at some point had to redefine usury as an excessive (usurious) interests rates. The question is what is excessive. So if there is a sin it must be in the intent only.

    "David Graeber’s book Debt"

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter

    The author claims that debt and credit historically appeared before money, which itself appeared before barter. This is the opposite of the narrative given in standard economics texts dating back to Adam Smith. To support this, he cites numerous historical, ethnographic and archaeological studies. He also claims that the standard economics texts cite no evidence for suggesting that barter came before money, credit and debt, and he has seen no credible reports suggesting such.
     
    just does not make sense.

    Hey utu,

    In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest.

    If it is done correctly, then there are two ways of financing something (without getting into details). Nobody says businessmen need to put their money to use for others only out of the goodness of their hearts:
    1) The person with the cash buys an item and sells it to you over a period of time for an inflated price (in installment payments) – this is not usury – money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction); if you pay it earlier or later – the price remains the same.
    2) The person with the cash buys the item with you as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns). In this, he is a partner in ownership of the commodity or item.

    This is (surprisingly) a fairly concise explanation of the different business models (without going into details on differences of opinion, etc.):

    http://www.dummies.com/personal-finance/islamic-finance/islamic-finance-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/

    Either one of the transactions is different from your normal loan which is money for money over time. Yet either one of the above transactions can be made to look almost exactly like a usurious loan on paper if one wants to draw it up that way.

    Interest or usury is the bedrock of fiat currency – none of the Islamic financial models allow for this. And yes – practically every Muslim country in the world attempts to bypass these restrictions…and then we wonder why we’re in such a mess.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    this is not usury – money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction)

    as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns)

    What you describe are just examples of semantic gymnastic akin to figuring out how to milk a cow on Sabbath by an orthodox Jew. You Muslims and Jews may succeed in deceive your gods but you won't bamboozle the gods of mathematics and semantics. This two gods tell me you are BSing here:

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X
     
    where

    X= Interest or Mark-up or Usage_cost
     
    There is no f... difference!

    Keep your fairly tales for your children to make them temporarily feel better and superior to build up their self esteem they will badly need when they grow up and face the real world.
    , @Anon
    Here is an interesting compilation on the subject (by, I hurry to say, someone with no pretension to magisterial authority): https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ .

    Aquinas and the scholastics are also a good place to go, but they don't use modern economic terminology.
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  171. @Art
    You are now engaging in a very ugly thing called LYING.

    You do not know the meaning of "lying." There is a difference between lying and making an error.

    Seeing someone trash the people of Iran is a red flag to me. I see a Matrix man - Jew or otherwise. I see someone justifying war for Israel.

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free - they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)

    In this case I was wrong. I apologized to him. I apologize to you.

    Art

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free – they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)

    Ah, yes.
    We are the government and we are here to save you, to make you just as free as Americans are

    https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/u-s-lawmakers-seek-to-criminally-outlaw-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

    Try this different perspective:

    Iran is a bright and shining light for other countries to follow, like Venezuela, Brazil, North Korea – even Europe, those in Europe who are tired of the Washington dictate, but so far haven’t dared taking the actions needed to gain back their national sovereignty. http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4740/Iran-is-a-bright-and-shining-light-for-other-countries-to-follow

    In addition — a few months ago The Saker featured this article:

    Sacred Communities and The Emergent Multipolar Landscape, by Blake Archer

    http://thesaker.is/sacred-communities-and-the-emergent-multipolar-landscape/

    I became acquainted with Blake Archer several years ago when he posted a comment about how so many Muslims in Iran, like himself, appreciate being part of a nation/community that values their Islamic principles. Archer was working on the book(s) that are referenced in the Saker piece; they’re a little dense for my level of understanding, but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Art

    but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.
     
    We all know why Iran is being trashed - ISRAEL.

    Let them live in peace - they are a good people - they have not attacked another nation in 200 years.

    They are doing a GOOD thing in Syria and Lebanon. They are right to oppose the Sunni ISIS slaughter.

    Peace --- Art

    p..s. How many nukes does Israel have?

    , @lavoisier
    And far more of them want to live in a republic and not a theocracy.

    They don't want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches. They want the freedom to think and say what they believe.

    I love this site, but just because I consider the Islamic theocracy a horrible abomination and a persecutor of the Iranian people does not mean I defend US war with Iran.

    I can accept without hesitation that we have no business meddling with this nation and getting involved in a war with them. But people here are delusional if they think the Islamic Republic is supported by the majority of the Iranian people.

    That is simply not true. It is a very cruel and barbaric regime.
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  172. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest.
     
    If it is done correctly, then there are two ways of financing something (without getting into details). Nobody says businessmen need to put their money to use for others only out of the goodness of their hearts:
    1) The person with the cash buys an item and sells it to you over a period of time for an inflated price (in installment payments) - this is not usury - money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction); if you pay it earlier or later - the price remains the same.
    2) The person with the cash buys the item with you as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns). In this, he is a partner in ownership of the commodity or item.

    This is (surprisingly) a fairly concise explanation of the different business models (without going into details on differences of opinion, etc.):
    http://www.dummies.com/personal-finance/islamic-finance/islamic-finance-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/

    Either one of the transactions is different from your normal loan which is money for money over time. Yet either one of the above transactions can be made to look almost exactly like a usurious loan on paper if one wants to draw it up that way.

    Interest or usury is the bedrock of fiat currency - none of the Islamic financial models allow for this. And yes - practically every Muslim country in the world attempts to bypass these restrictions...and then we wonder why we're in such a mess.

    Peace.

    this is not usury – money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction)

    as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns)

    What you describe are just examples of semantic gymnastic akin to figuring out how to milk a cow on Sabbath by an orthodox Jew. You Muslims and Jews may succeed in deceive your gods but you won’t bamboozle the gods of mathematics and semantics. This two gods tell me you are BSing here:

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X

    where

    X= Interest or Mark-up or Usage_cost

    There is no f… difference!

    Keep your fairly tales for your children to make them temporarily feel better and superior to build up their self esteem they will badly need when they grow up and face the real world.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey utu,

    No need to take it personally. I was simply making a clarification on the subject. This is an old argument even addressed in the Qur'an:
    "...That is because they say, 'Trade is [just] like interest (riba).' But God has permitted trade and has forbidden interest (riba)...." (2:275)

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X
     
    Wrong formula as there is no loan. Period. If there is a loan of money - only the principle is due back. Period.

    Nobody who looks at the contractual details will conclude it is the same as usury. For instance we are not permitted to put our money into banks in accounts that collect interest. Furthermore, not a single scholar would ever approve the formula:

    Joe borrows $400 from Fred and promises to pay him back $500 within 6 months. It's a non-starter.

    Everything that we do has some commodity or business venture involved and is either like a cost-plus sale (which is what all trade encompasses) or has to do with joint and declining ownership or the like. You can say; well it seems like interest to me...all well and good.

    A man and a woman live together in a home and have a couple of kids that they raise together. Another couple does the exact same, but with the sacrament of marriage...which one is living in sin? Why - looks the same to me.

    I urge you to follow the link provided in #173 - it is fairly close to our positions and argued by Christian scholastics and breaks down the inherit difference in the contract itself.

    Peace.
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  173. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest.
     
    If it is done correctly, then there are two ways of financing something (without getting into details). Nobody says businessmen need to put their money to use for others only out of the goodness of their hearts:
    1) The person with the cash buys an item and sells it to you over a period of time for an inflated price (in installment payments) - this is not usury - money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction); if you pay it earlier or later - the price remains the same.
    2) The person with the cash buys the item with you as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns). In this, he is a partner in ownership of the commodity or item.

    This is (surprisingly) a fairly concise explanation of the different business models (without going into details on differences of opinion, etc.):
    http://www.dummies.com/personal-finance/islamic-finance/islamic-finance-for-dummies-cheat-sheet/

    Either one of the transactions is different from your normal loan which is money for money over time. Yet either one of the above transactions can be made to look almost exactly like a usurious loan on paper if one wants to draw it up that way.

    Interest or usury is the bedrock of fiat currency - none of the Islamic financial models allow for this. And yes - practically every Muslim country in the world attempts to bypass these restrictions...and then we wonder why we're in such a mess.

    Peace.

    Here is an interesting compilation on the subject (by, I hurry to say, someone with no pretension to magisterial authority): https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ .

    Aquinas and the scholastics are also a good place to go, but they don’t use modern economic terminology.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Excellent - beautiful stuff! The medievals knew well the way the mechanics of different contracts worked.

    "St. Thomas Aquinas explains that usurious lending involves selling something which does not exist. This is very counterintuitive to people indoctrinated in modernity, and yet obvious once you’ve set aside modern anti-realism about property and economic value."

    Bing - frickin' - O!

    Islamic finance is not an easy topic. It is a fairly advanced subject. Even in the Muslim world it is a niche specialization among jurists. There are probably 15-20 leading scholars on the subject - those that understand and have advanced degrees in both Islamic studies as well as modern finance. Unfortunately, we lost a huge scholar a couple of years ago in the erudite and sagacious Shaykh Wahba Zuhayli (ra) from Damascus.

    It is a unique discipline in which even the medieval rules on slavery are dissected in order to apply them to abstract constructs like limited liability corporations, silent partners in joint ownership, etc. I've only had the ability to skim it thus far, though we will probably cover some of it this year (or the next) in my current track of al-Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra).

    Suggested further reading is:
    http://muftitaqiusmani.com/en/books/PDF/An%20Introduction%20To%20Islamic%20Finance/An_Introduction%20_to_Islamic_Finance.pdf

    It's a pdf of the same text I have on my shelf. The author is probably among the top 3 scholars in the world on this subject.

    Peace.

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  174. Talha says:
    @Anon
    Here is an interesting compilation on the subject (by, I hurry to say, someone with no pretension to magisterial authority): https://zippycatholic.wordpress.com/2014/11/10/usury-faq-or-money-on-the-pill/ .

    Aquinas and the scholastics are also a good place to go, but they don't use modern economic terminology.

    Excellent – beautiful stuff! The medievals knew well the way the mechanics of different contracts worked.

    “St. Thomas Aquinas explains that usurious lending involves selling something which does not exist. This is very counterintuitive to people indoctrinated in modernity, and yet obvious once you’ve set aside modern anti-realism about property and economic value.”

    Bing – frickin’ – O!

    Islamic finance is not an easy topic. It is a fairly advanced subject. Even in the Muslim world it is a niche specialization among jurists. There are probably 15-20 leading scholars on the subject – those that understand and have advanced degrees in both Islamic studies as well as modern finance. Unfortunately, we lost a huge scholar a couple of years ago in the erudite and sagacious Shaykh Wahba Zuhayli (ra) from Damascus.

    It is a unique discipline in which even the medieval rules on slavery are dissected in order to apply them to abstract constructs like limited liability corporations, silent partners in joint ownership, etc. I’ve only had the ability to skim it thus far, though we will probably cover some of it this year (or the next) in my current track of al-Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra).

    Suggested further reading is:

    http://muftitaqiusmani.com/en/books/PDF/An%20Introduction%20To%20Islamic%20Finance/An_Introduction%20_to_Islamic_Finance.pdf

    It’s a pdf of the same text I have on my shelf. The author is probably among the top 3 scholars in the world on this subject.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  175. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @L.K
    Good points, but this 'lavoisier' troll is up to no good.

    It's not the first time this pest states as his basic argument re how bad the current Iranian government must be, the fact that his Iranian émigré buddies have told him so.

    I've already told him this is not representative of the Iranian people... to no avail.

    He'll just keep repeating this mantra.

    People under a really restrictive government always think it’s good. Hence the popularity of “democracy” with Europeans and Americans and communism with North Koreans.

    Read More
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  176. Talha says:
    @utu
    this is not usury – money is not connected to time (this is a normal mark-up retail transaction)

    as a silent partner (you pay to buy his share off of it while paying him usage costs for the [declining] percentage he owns)

    What you describe are just examples of semantic gymnastic akin to figuring out how to milk a cow on Sabbath by an orthodox Jew. You Muslims and Jews may succeed in deceive your gods but you won't bamboozle the gods of mathematics and semantics. This two gods tell me you are BSing here:

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X
     
    where

    X= Interest or Mark-up or Usage_cost
     
    There is no f... difference!

    Keep your fairly tales for your children to make them temporarily feel better and superior to build up their self esteem they will badly need when they grow up and face the real world.

    Hey utu,

    No need to take it personally. I was simply making a clarification on the subject. This is an old argument even addressed in the Qur’an:
    “…That is because they say, ‘Trade is [just] like interest (riba).’ But God has permitted trade and has forbidden interest (riba)….” (2:275)

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X

    Wrong formula as there is no loan. Period. If there is a loan of money – only the principle is due back. Period.

    Nobody who looks at the contractual details will conclude it is the same as usury. For instance we are not permitted to put our money into banks in accounts that collect interest. Furthermore, not a single scholar would ever approve the formula:

    Joe borrows $400 from Fred and promises to pay him back $500 within 6 months. It’s a non-starter.

    Everything that we do has some commodity or business venture involved and is either like a cost-plus sale (which is what all trade encompasses) or has to do with joint and declining ownership or the like. You can say; well it seems like interest to me…all well and good.

    A man and a woman live together in a home and have a couple of kids that they raise together. Another couple does the exact same, but with the sacrament of marriage…which one is living in sin? Why – looks the same to me.

    I urge you to follow the link provided in #173 – it is fairly close to our positions and argued by Christian scholastics and breaks down the inherit difference in the contract itself.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    I though of you as of sincere and thoughtful person. You answer suggest I was wrong. It is either unthoughtful or disingenuous.

    You and Muslims engage in semantic BS.

    (1) Say, you have a cash and want to buy a car; you bring the cash in amount of X dollars and return home with a car.

    (2) Say you have no car; you go to your local usurious car dealer (UCD) and return home with car and a contract to pay an amount of Y dollars in specified time period.

    (3) Say you have no cash; you go to your local friendly Muslim car dealer (MCD) go through some Muslim mambo-jambo and return home with a car plus some mambo-jambo Muslim contract which obliges you to pay to some mambo-jambo Muslim real or fictitious person or institution the amount of Z that you will pay in some specified time period.

    Now you compare the three numbers X, Y, Z.

    (1) X is called price (and usually the following inequality swill hold X≤Y and X≤Z)
    (2) ∆y=Y-X is called interest and X is called amount of loan
    (3) ∆z=Z-X is called whatever you want to be called in your mambo-jambo BS

    The bottom lines is that if ∆z≥∆y I do not care what it is called because I go to the my local usurious dealer and I will say f.. to the local friendly Muslim dealership. If however ∆z≤∆y then I want to know the address of this MCD.

    In either case whether ∆z≥∆y or ∆z0 there is no difference between the two dealership. Thus MCD=UCD.

    What about whores? How do you call them so they are not whores. Do you marry them for 5 minutes and then you divorce them?

    A hypocrisy sometimes has some utility in society. After all it is a tribute vice pays to virtue. So when it reduces immoral behaviors then hypocrisy does some good. However what you Muslims do is worse than hypocrisy because you do not reduce immoral behaviors. You just engage in semantic shenanigans that permit you to engage in immoral behaviors. You proceed in doing what you claim you are not doing, i.e., paying for car as much as at an usurious dealer and claim that you are not engaging in usurious transaction and paying for sex claiming that you do not engage in prostitution.

    Talha, Wake up. You can engage in mambo-jambo Muslim BS and go through the motions but, please, save your soul and do not lie to yourself and do not try spread the BS around.

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  177. lavoisier says: • Website
    @MEexpert
    You are a total fraud.

    Look, I am not criticizing the Iranian people. I know all about that history and I am well aware of how much damage the West has done to these people.
     
    How kind of you.

    Please do not defend the Islamic theocracy in any way as a legitimate leader of the Iranian people. It is not a defender of human rights. It hangs homosexuals. Owning a gun is a capital crime. It discriminates against women. They despise animals and treat dogs like cockroaches. And it tortures people with impunity.
     
    This one paragraph tells me a lot about your knowledge of Iran and Iranian people. It is full of unsubstantiated charges. There have been elections in Iran every four years since 1979. In 2017, more than 70% of the people voted in the election and the president was elected with 56% of the popular vote. If these voters were not "Iranian people," where did these votes come from?

    Please show me one country that has a 100% record of defending human rights. Aren't human rights violated in the US every day? And don't even talk about human rights violations by the US of people in other nations. Ask the women of this country and they will tell you that they are discriminated in this country, in jobs, in pay, in promotions, etc. US is the only country where an Equal Rights Amendment (ERA) to the US constitution was proposed and failed to pass. Since when treating animals nicely is the precondition for leadership of any country? For your information, it is not the Iranian leadership that has torture centers around the world but your own US government.

    I am hopeful that someday the Iranian people can have their country back. We have done much to harm these people, and that is a significant reason that the Islamic nutjobs now control the country.
     
    The Iranian people got their country back in 1979 when they kicked out the Shah. This regime's only crime is that it has not bowed to the whims of the US and Europe and has challenged Israel's hegemony in the Middle East. The leadership of Iran is more rational than the leadership of the US. The President and the congress of the United States is bought and paid for by the Jewish/neocon money. Each one is tripping over the other to appease Israel and the neocons.

    I have very strong personal and professional ties to the Iranian community and I listen carefully to what they have told me about THEIR country. Many have fled their families and homes to escape the tyranny of the Islamic Republic.
     
    I too have had personal and professional relationship with the Iranian people since before the Iranian revolution. The only people who complained about the revolution are those who have been deprived of the opportunity to plunder the wealth of the Iranian people. They fled the country to escape prosecution for their crimes. No regime has 100% people support. Iranian regime is no exception.

    But make no mistake, the Iranian people are even more persecuted today under the savagery of the Ayatollah’s than they were under the hated Shah. And I despised the Shah as well.
     
    This statement tells me that you know nothing about present day Iran and its government. I don't believe you have ever been to Iran and filming the green movement is a blatant lie.

    And please do not assume that I speak about Iran on the basis of ignorance and what I am fed by the MSM.
     
    This disclaimer followed by your asinine statements told me right away that the only sources of your information about Iran have been the Shah loyalists, the MEK supporters and the mainstream media. Your post has been full of canned terms, such as human rights violations, savagery, mistreatment of women, and so on. You have not paid any attention to the popular elections every four years of the parliament and the presidency of the country. These elections are monitored by a group of international watchers. Even the election of 2009 was shown to have been properly conducted in spite of the efforts of the CIA and its cronies to cause disruptions, protests, and spread of misinformation.

    Free and fair elections in Iran are totally rigged. Candidates are vetted by the Islamic theocrats for fidelity to rule by the theocrats.

    Any semblance of a republic is a fraud.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

    You are one sick person to defend such a despicable regime.

    There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert
    Your reply to my post has not changed my conclusion that you are a fraud. You can call me anything you want but I am what I say I am. My arguments were solid and you have no answer to them. You can't answer them because you don't know anything about Iran.

    By the way, do you think the United States is a republic?

    Aren't the candidates in the United States vetted by the political parties? Remember Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Remember what happened to Ron Paul in 2012.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

     

    Which is a big fat zero.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

     

    Nah, none of those but I do like nuts.

    Answer my comments with facts. Until you do that you will remain a fraud.
    , @annamaria
    "There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic."

    Vey, vey, such a strong exhibit of righteousness. What does the US have to do with a country half-world away? Was not it the CIA that had smothered the secular democratic process there in the 50-s, to protect the interests of American oilmen?
    Tell us better about the "nobility and legitimacy" of your state of Israel (still practicing apartheid and "enhanced interrogation,"even with children?) - and about the methods that the Lobby (and other influential Friends of Israel) have been using to corrupt the EU/US into the slaughterous and illegitimate wars of aggression in the Middle East. http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/02/king-of-chaos/
    "It is often alleged that this chaos reflects a terrible failure of U.S. policy. This is debatable. Three states that were independent and considered enemy states by Israel and many U.S. policy-makers and influentials–Iraq, Libya and Syria–have been made into failed states and may be in the process of dismemberment."

    "Trivializing their human rights abuses ..." - you should apply these words to the Kingdom of Saud, this important partner and friend of Israelis and Americans. Let's compare the record of human rights in SA (this major donor for DNC) and in Iran. Or this is not politically correct currently? http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Why-are-Israel-allies-keeping-mum-on-110-billion-US-Saudi-arms-deal-494460

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  178. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    No need to take it personally. I was simply making a clarification on the subject. This is an old argument even addressed in the Qur'an:
    "...That is because they say, 'Trade is [just] like interest (riba).' But God has permitted trade and has forbidden interest (riba)...." (2:275)

    ToBePaid=PrincipalLoan+X
     
    Wrong formula as there is no loan. Period. If there is a loan of money - only the principle is due back. Period.

    Nobody who looks at the contractual details will conclude it is the same as usury. For instance we are not permitted to put our money into banks in accounts that collect interest. Furthermore, not a single scholar would ever approve the formula:

    Joe borrows $400 from Fred and promises to pay him back $500 within 6 months. It's a non-starter.

    Everything that we do has some commodity or business venture involved and is either like a cost-plus sale (which is what all trade encompasses) or has to do with joint and declining ownership or the like. You can say; well it seems like interest to me...all well and good.

    A man and a woman live together in a home and have a couple of kids that they raise together. Another couple does the exact same, but with the sacrament of marriage...which one is living in sin? Why - looks the same to me.

    I urge you to follow the link provided in #173 - it is fairly close to our positions and argued by Christian scholastics and breaks down the inherit difference in the contract itself.

    Peace.

    I though of you as of sincere and thoughtful person. You answer suggest I was wrong. It is either unthoughtful or disingenuous.

    You and Muslims engage in semantic BS.

    (1) Say, you have a cash and want to buy a car; you bring the cash in amount of X dollars and return home with a car.

    (2) Say you have no car; you go to your local usurious car dealer (UCD) and return home with car and a contract to pay an amount of Y dollars in specified time period.

    (3) Say you have no cash; you go to your local friendly Muslim car dealer (MCD) go through some Muslim mambo-jambo and return home with a car plus some mambo-jambo Muslim contract which obliges you to pay to some mambo-jambo Muslim real or fictitious person or institution the amount of Z that you will pay in some specified time period.

    Now you compare the three numbers X, Y, Z.

    (1) X is called price (and usually the following inequality swill hold X≤Y and X≤Z)
    (2) ∆y=Y-X is called interest and X is called amount of loan
    (3) ∆z=Z-X is called whatever you want to be called in your mambo-jambo BS

    The bottom lines is that if ∆z≥∆y I do not care what it is called because I go to the my local usurious dealer and I will say f.. to the local friendly Muslim dealership. If however ∆z≤∆y then I want to know the address of this MCD.

    In either case whether ∆z≥∆y or ∆z0 there is no difference between the two dealership. Thus MCD=UCD.

    What about whores? How do you call them so they are not whores. Do you marry them for 5 minutes and then you divorce them?

    A hypocrisy sometimes has some utility in society. After all it is a tribute vice pays to virtue. So when it reduces immoral behaviors then hypocrisy does some good. However what you Muslims do is worse than hypocrisy because you do not reduce immoral behaviors. You just engage in semantic shenanigans that permit you to engage in immoral behaviors. You proceed in doing what you claim you are not doing, i.e., paying for car as much as at an usurious dealer and claim that you are not engaging in usurious transaction and paying for sex claiming that you do not engage in prostitution.

    Talha, Wake up. You can engage in mambo-jambo Muslim BS and go through the motions but, please, save your soul and do not lie to yourself and do not try spread the BS around.

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  179. Talha says:

    Hey utu,

    I do not care

    And you may not care about the difference between a man and woman living in a house and producing children and a couple doing the same but with a marriage contract between them – after all, the end results are the same.

    As I mentioned in my first comment on the subject; the contract parameters and mechanics are different – there is no exchange of money going on – there is no loan – full stop – but I or anybody (with basic level of understanding of algebra) can write up the numbers to make it look exactly like a mortgage or any other modern financial instrument on paper.

    If you are only worried that at the end somebody makes money off the transaction (no matter how it’s done) and how much one pays, well I can’t help you there. Profit is allowed as long as it’s done the correct way.

    You just engage in semantic shenanigans that permit you to engage in immoral behaviors.

    You are entitled to your opinions. If you believe people are not allowed to make a profit in business, that’s all fine with us.

    paying for car as much as at an usurious dealer

    You can pay for a car as much as you want – that has never been the point. You keep missing the point I’m making. Again, read the link on #173 and then you can call out Thomas Aquinas on his misunderstanding of usury.

    you do not engage in prostitution

    Correct, we don’t. Fornicating with a woman is intrinsically sinful, buying a car or a cake or a goat is not. Your analogy falls apart at first premise – have you formally studied Greek logic?

    mambo-jambo Muslim BS

    It is always helpful that non-Muslim opinions on the conclusions of our jurists don’t count for much. :)

    If we were hypocrites, I’d be putting my money into an account that earns interest and benefit from that and coming up with some wordy way to justify it. However, I do not – though it goes against my material self-interest. When I buy anything on my credit card, I make sure to pay the entire amount off at the end of the cycle so that zero interest is accrued on the account – because we do not deal with interest/usury – receiving or paying. And we apply it in our lives on a very real level as I pointed out.

    Furthermore, as I stated before, there is zero chance of coming up with a fiat currency model that one can pump or remove money out of, at will, according to Islamic guidelines because you cannot do that without leveraging interest rates. That is a fundamental core difference in modern finance/monetary system that is absolutely necessary to the functioning of our global empire. This is far more important as a guiding principle for society than mere long-term car purchases.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Your non usury Muslim BS is on the same level as that of Pentagon claim that they never kill civilians because the dead civilians resulting from their actions are a collateral damage.

    I did not say you Muslims are hypocrites which I am sure you are guilty of as well, but I said that you are worse than hypocrites because using linguistic technicalities (semantic shenanigans) you relabel some activities as kosher while in their essences they are no different than activities forbidden by your own "moral" precepts. The best example of this are nikah mut‘ah (and misyar and urfi among Sunis) marriages used for a sole purpose of sexual gratification to circumvent the precepts against prostitution and adultery.

    Purchasing anything for some form credit, i..e, when you do not have your own money, always amounts to paying more than the cash prices. The difference between the credit amount and the cash price is equivalent to interest though it might be called something else. How do you call it is irrelevant. What is important is that you engage in activity that is equivalent to taking a loan that is burdened with an interest. But you think just like Pentagon that you do not really kill civilians because you were clever enough to relabel the dead civilians as a collateral damage. Sorry man, your BS does not fly just like Pentagon's BS does not fly. Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.
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  180. MEexpert says:
    @lavoisier
    Free and fair elections in Iran are totally rigged. Candidates are vetted by the Islamic theocrats for fidelity to rule by the theocrats.

    Any semblance of a republic is a fraud.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

    You are one sick person to defend such a despicable regime.

    There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

    Your reply to my post has not changed my conclusion that you are a fraud. You can call me anything you want but I am what I say I am. My arguments were solid and you have no answer to them. You can’t answer them because you don’t know anything about Iran.

    By the way, do you think the United States is a republic?

    Aren’t the candidates in the United States vetted by the political parties? Remember Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Remember what happened to Ron Paul in 2012.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

    Which is a big fat zero.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

    Nah, none of those but I do like nuts.

    Answer my comments with facts. Until you do that you will remain a fraud.

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  181. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @NoseytheDuke
    Actually naive would be simply repeating propaganda mantras without actually having knowledge about what life is like there. Here's what we do know for certain about Iran...

    Iran has not attacked any other nation for centuries.
    Iran had a fledgling democracy which was sabotaged by the UK and the USA (1953).
    Iran had a brutal dictatorship under the Shah installed by the west.
    Iranians united and revolted under their shared cultural and religious leadership.
    Iran has the largest community of Jewish people outside of Israel.
    Iran has a form of representative government.

    yeah was quite correct both legally, strategically and morally when stating that Iran should be left alone. There is plenty of bleeding out happening right now in America where your concerns would be better served.

    “largest community of Jews outside Israel”

    Huh? There are more Jews in NYC alone than in all of Iran.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    You are correct. Thank you. I should have written, the largest community of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel. I made a simple but silly mistake, thanks again for the correction.
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  182. annamaria says:
    @lavoisier
    Free and fair elections in Iran are totally rigged. Candidates are vetted by the Islamic theocrats for fidelity to rule by the theocrats.

    Any semblance of a republic is a fraud.

    Are you paid by the Revolutionary Guards? A member of Hezbollah? Kind of a hasbara troll for the Islamic nutjobs?

    You are one sick person to defend such a despicable regime.

    There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic.

    Trivializing their human rights abuses tells me all that I need to know about you.

    “There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic.”

    Vey, vey, such a strong exhibit of righteousness. What does the US have to do with a country half-world away? Was not it the CIA that had smothered the secular democratic process there in the 50-s, to protect the interests of American oilmen?
    Tell us better about the “nobility and legitimacy” of your state of Israel (still practicing apartheid and “enhanced interrogation,”even with children?) – and about the methods that the Lobby (and other influential Friends of Israel) have been using to corrupt the EU/US into the slaughterous and illegitimate wars of aggression in the Middle East. http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/02/king-of-chaos/
    “It is often alleged that this chaos reflects a terrible failure of U.S. policy. This is debatable. Three states that were independent and considered enemy states by Israel and many U.S. policy-makers and influentials–Iraq, Libya and Syria–have been made into failed states and may be in the process of dismemberment.”

    “Trivializing their human rights abuses …” – you should apply these words to the Kingdom of Saud, this important partner and friend of Israelis and Americans. Let’s compare the record of human rights in SA (this major donor for DNC) and in Iran. Or this is not politically correct currently? http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Why-are-Israel-allies-keeping-mum-on-110-billion-US-Saudi-arms-deal-494460

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey annamaria,

    I don't think the guy is Israeli. He has mentioned our government has an unholy alliance with Israel that is causing a huge mess in the world before.

    I think his statements about Iran are a bit hyperbolic, but he doesn't seem to be carrying water for Israel. I think he's been talking to way too many expatriate Iranians without listening to the other side. The man-on-the-street in Nishapur or Mashhad would definitely give a different assessment of things.

    Peace.
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  183. Talha says:
    @annamaria
    "There is nothing noble or legitimate about the Islamic Republic."

    Vey, vey, such a strong exhibit of righteousness. What does the US have to do with a country half-world away? Was not it the CIA that had smothered the secular democratic process there in the 50-s, to protect the interests of American oilmen?
    Tell us better about the "nobility and legitimacy" of your state of Israel (still practicing apartheid and "enhanced interrogation,"even with children?) - and about the methods that the Lobby (and other influential Friends of Israel) have been using to corrupt the EU/US into the slaughterous and illegitimate wars of aggression in the Middle East. http://dissidentvoice.org/2016/02/king-of-chaos/
    "It is often alleged that this chaos reflects a terrible failure of U.S. policy. This is debatable. Three states that were independent and considered enemy states by Israel and many U.S. policy-makers and influentials–Iraq, Libya and Syria–have been made into failed states and may be in the process of dismemberment."

    "Trivializing their human rights abuses ..." - you should apply these words to the Kingdom of Saud, this important partner and friend of Israelis and Americans. Let's compare the record of human rights in SA (this major donor for DNC) and in Iran. Or this is not politically correct currently? http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Why-are-Israel-allies-keeping-mum-on-110-billion-US-Saudi-arms-deal-494460

    Hey annamaria,

    I don’t think the guy is Israeli. He has mentioned our government has an unholy alliance with Israel that is causing a huge mess in the world before.

    I think his statements about Iran are a bit hyperbolic, but he doesn’t seem to be carrying water for Israel. I think he’s been talking to way too many expatriate Iranians without listening to the other side. The man-on-the-street in Nishapur or Mashhad would definitely give a different assessment of things.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Thank you for the peaceful comment.
    Iran is no danger to the US. Iran has not attacked any country for many years. The Iranians have their own traditions and the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet. There is only one country that has been beating incessantly the drums of war with Iran -- this country is Israel. The level of hatred and poisonous propaganda issued by ziocons is stunning; one can recognize in the animosity a "feud in a family" between two cousins. The pictures of a mass slaughter of civilians in Iraq, Libya, and Syria by the NATO/US warriors (and, following their illegal interventions, by ISIS et al) have not yet downed on westerners' psyche. The flaky minds of the geographically-protected US population have no idea what happens to the human beings of all ages during a war.
    A draft. Only a universal military draft could bring the clarity.
    Charles Randel: "Since January 2003, at the height of the debate on the possible unilateral strike against Iraq, I have advocated for a reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged…. Currently, the burden of defending our nation is carried by less than 1% of the American population... Since we replaced the compulsory military draft with an all-volunteer force in 1973, our nation has been making decisions about wars without worry over who fights them. I sincerely believe that reinstating the draft would compel the American public to have a stake in the wars we fight as a nation. That is why I wrote the Universal National Service Act, known as the “draft” bill, which requires all men and women between ages 18 and 25 to give two years of service in any capacity that promotes our national defense."
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  184. annamaria says:
    @Talha
    Hey annamaria,

    I don't think the guy is Israeli. He has mentioned our government has an unholy alliance with Israel that is causing a huge mess in the world before.

    I think his statements about Iran are a bit hyperbolic, but he doesn't seem to be carrying water for Israel. I think he's been talking to way too many expatriate Iranians without listening to the other side. The man-on-the-street in Nishapur or Mashhad would definitely give a different assessment of things.

    Peace.

    Thank you for the peaceful comment.
    Iran is no danger to the US. Iran has not attacked any country for many years. The Iranians have their own traditions and the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet. There is only one country that has been beating incessantly the drums of war with Iran — this country is Israel. The level of hatred and poisonous propaganda issued by ziocons is stunning; one can recognize in the animosity a “feud in a family” between two cousins. The pictures of a mass slaughter of civilians in Iraq, Libya, and Syria by the NATO/US warriors (and, following their illegal interventions, by ISIS et al) have not yet downed on westerners’ psyche. The flaky minds of the geographically-protected US population have no idea what happens to the human beings of all ages during a war.
    A draft. Only a universal military draft could bring the clarity.
    Charles Randel: “Since January 2003, at the height of the debate on the possible unilateral strike against Iraq, I have advocated for a reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged…. Currently, the burden of defending our nation is carried by less than 1% of the American population… Since we replaced the compulsory military draft with an all-volunteer force in 1973, our nation has been making decisions about wars without worry over who fights them. I sincerely believe that reinstating the draft would compel the American public to have a stake in the wars we fight as a nation. That is why I wrote the Universal National Service Act, known as the “draft” bill, which requires all men and women between ages 18 and 25 to give two years of service in any capacity that promotes our national defense.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    No problem annamaria,

    the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet
     
    100% agree.

    this country is Israel
     
    100% agree.

    reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged
     
    I would rather that the draft is represented by the children of the politicians first and foremost:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40JmEj0_aVM

    Peace.
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  185. Art says:
    @SolontoCroesus

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free – they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)
     
    Ah, yes.
    We are the government and we are here to save you, to make you just as free as Americans are

    https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/u-s-lawmakers-seek-to-criminally-outlaw-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

    Try this different perspective:

    Iran is a bright and shining light for other countries to follow, like Venezuela, Brazil, North Korea - even Europe, those in Europe who are tired of the Washington dictate, but so far haven’t dared taking the actions needed to gain back their national sovereignty. http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4740/Iran-is-a-bright-and-shining-light-for-other-countries-to-follow
     
    In addition -- a few months ago The Saker featured this article:

    Sacred Communities and The Emergent Multipolar Landscape, by Blake Archer
    http://thesaker.is/sacred-communities-and-the-emergent-multipolar-landscape/

    I became acquainted with Blake Archer several years ago when he posted a comment about how so many Muslims in Iran, like himself, appreciate being part of a nation/community that values their Islamic principles. Archer was working on the book(s) that are referenced in the Saker piece; they're a little dense for my level of understanding, but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.

    but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.

    We all know why Iran is being trashed – ISRAEL.

    Let them live in peace – they are a good people – they have not attacked another nation in 200 years.

    They are doing a GOOD thing in Syria and Lebanon. They are right to oppose the Sunni ISIS slaughter.

    Peace — Art

    p..s. How many nukes does Israel have?

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  186. Talha says:
    @annamaria
    Thank you for the peaceful comment.
    Iran is no danger to the US. Iran has not attacked any country for many years. The Iranians have their own traditions and the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet. There is only one country that has been beating incessantly the drums of war with Iran -- this country is Israel. The level of hatred and poisonous propaganda issued by ziocons is stunning; one can recognize in the animosity a "feud in a family" between two cousins. The pictures of a mass slaughter of civilians in Iraq, Libya, and Syria by the NATO/US warriors (and, following their illegal interventions, by ISIS et al) have not yet downed on westerners' psyche. The flaky minds of the geographically-protected US population have no idea what happens to the human beings of all ages during a war.
    A draft. Only a universal military draft could bring the clarity.
    Charles Randel: "Since January 2003, at the height of the debate on the possible unilateral strike against Iraq, I have advocated for a reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged…. Currently, the burden of defending our nation is carried by less than 1% of the American population... Since we replaced the compulsory military draft with an all-volunteer force in 1973, our nation has been making decisions about wars without worry over who fights them. I sincerely believe that reinstating the draft would compel the American public to have a stake in the wars we fight as a nation. That is why I wrote the Universal National Service Act, known as the “draft” bill, which requires all men and women between ages 18 and 25 to give two years of service in any capacity that promotes our national defense."

    No problem annamaria,

    the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet

    100% agree.

    this country is Israel

    100% agree.

    reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged

    I would rather that the draft is represented by the children of the politicians first and foremost:

    Peace.

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    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    Another commenter here once posted a list of "serving" politicians who obtained deferment from the draft. It was a lengthy list indeed.
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  187. @Anon
    "largest community of Jews outside Israel"

    Huh? There are more Jews in NYC alone than in all of Iran.

    You are correct. Thank you. I should have written, the largest community of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel. I made a simple but silly mistake, thanks again for the correction.

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    • Replies: @Anon
    No problem.
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  188. @Talha
    No problem annamaria,

    the Persian civilization is one of the oldest and most influential civilizations on the planet
     
    100% agree.

    this country is Israel
     
    100% agree.

    reinstatement of the military draft to ensure a more equitable representation of people making sacrifices in wars in which the United States is engaged
     
    I would rather that the draft is represented by the children of the politicians first and foremost:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40JmEj0_aVM

    Peace.

    Another commenter here once posted a list of “serving” politicians who obtained deferment from the draft. It was a lengthy list indeed.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey NtD,

    I don't have a great love for the various kings and emperors of the past, but it must be said that many of them at least were not cowards and went out to the field of battle with their men and some even led the charge. Our politicians (most of them) are absolutely deplorable in that regard.

    Peace.
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  189. utu says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    I do not care
     
    And you may not care about the difference between a man and woman living in a house and producing children and a couple doing the same but with a marriage contract between them - after all, the end results are the same.

    As I mentioned in my first comment on the subject; the contract parameters and mechanics are different - there is no exchange of money going on - there is no loan - full stop - but I or anybody (with basic level of understanding of algebra) can write up the numbers to make it look exactly like a mortgage or any other modern financial instrument on paper.

    If you are only worried that at the end somebody makes money off the transaction (no matter how it's done) and how much one pays, well I can't help you there. Profit is allowed as long as it's done the correct way.


    You just engage in semantic shenanigans that permit you to engage in immoral behaviors.
     
    You are entitled to your opinions. If you believe people are not allowed to make a profit in business, that's all fine with us.

    paying for car as much as at an usurious dealer
     
    You can pay for a car as much as you want - that has never been the point. You keep missing the point I'm making. Again, read the link on #173 and then you can call out Thomas Aquinas on his misunderstanding of usury.

    you do not engage in prostitution
     
    Correct, we don't. Fornicating with a woman is intrinsically sinful, buying a car or a cake or a goat is not. Your analogy falls apart at first premise - have you formally studied Greek logic?

    mambo-jambo Muslim BS
     
    It is always helpful that non-Muslim opinions on the conclusions of our jurists don't count for much. :)

    If we were hypocrites, I'd be putting my money into an account that earns interest and benefit from that and coming up with some wordy way to justify it. However, I do not - though it goes against my material self-interest. When I buy anything on my credit card, I make sure to pay the entire amount off at the end of the cycle so that zero interest is accrued on the account - because we do not deal with interest/usury - receiving or paying. And we apply it in our lives on a very real level as I pointed out.

    Furthermore, as I stated before, there is zero chance of coming up with a fiat currency model that one can pump or remove money out of, at will, according to Islamic guidelines because you cannot do that without leveraging interest rates. That is a fundamental core difference in modern finance/monetary system that is absolutely necessary to the functioning of our global empire. This is far more important as a guiding principle for society than mere long-term car purchases.

    Peace.

    Your non usury Muslim BS is on the same level as that of Pentagon claim that they never kill civilians because the dead civilians resulting from their actions are a collateral damage.

    I did not say you Muslims are hypocrites which I am sure you are guilty of as well, but I said that you are worse than hypocrites because using linguistic technicalities (semantic shenanigans) you relabel some activities as kosher while in their essences they are no different than activities forbidden by your own “moral” precepts. The best example of this are nikah mut‘ah (and misyar and urfi among Sunis) marriages used for a sole purpose of sexual gratification to circumvent the precepts against prostitution and adultery.

    Purchasing anything for some form credit, i..e, when you do not have your own money, always amounts to paying more than the cash prices. The difference between the credit amount and the cash price is equivalent to interest though it might be called something else. How do you call it is irrelevant. What is important is that you engage in activity that is equivalent to taking a loan that is burdened with an interest. But you think just like Pentagon that you do not really kill civilians because you were clever enough to relabel the dead civilians as a collateral damage. Sorry man, your BS does not fly just like Pentagon’s BS does not fly. Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.

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    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey utu,

    but I said that you are worse than hypocrites
     
    No problem. Then I'm sure you will be making sure (as I do) to shut down any interest collecting accounts you have at the bank, shut down any investments in the bond market, pay your credit card bill on time so you don't pay interest charges, etc. I mean, you wouldn't want to be shown up by an unprincipled hypocrite like me in this regard, would you?

    How do you call it is irrelevant.
     
    I've written enough and don't feel like repeating myself. I don't expect you to understand the difference honestly - it is a complicated subject. But I do expect people to be principled in their stances. So will you call out medieval Christian scholars like Aquinas for making similar distinctions (as linked to in post #173) as hypocrites?

    nikah mut‘ah
     
    This is a Shiah thing - you can ask them about it. Though I will say, they are not hypocrites about it - the name mut'ah is derived from the word "enjoyment" - they feel it was never outlawed. It is a juristic difference. You can read about it in any of the risalahs of their living mujtahid scholars. We Sunnis disagree, of course.

    misyar and urfi
     
    A marriage with pre-nuptial agreements where a woman or man give up some of their rights (like right to housing, maintenance, etc.) is valid (though discouraged) according to us Sunnis. If it has a time component attached to it - it is invalid from the get go:
    "d) The absence of a fixed time-period. It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace)."
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6159

    Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.
     
    We taqiyyah hard around these parts yo!

    If I remember correctly, you were the person admonishing me to not get into these kinds of side conversations or random Islamic subjects. I'm going to take your advice on it and take this opportunity to end the discussion.

    Peace.

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  190. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @NoseytheDuke
    You are correct. Thank you. I should have written, the largest community of Jews in the Middle East outside of Israel. I made a simple but silly mistake, thanks again for the correction.

    No problem.

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  191. MEexpert says:

    Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.

    Only yours and Israel’s BS is kosher.

    The best example of this are nikah mut‘ah (and misyar and urfi among Sunis) marriages used for a sole purpose of sexual gratification to circumvent the precepts against prostitution and adultery.

    You are so right. Adultery and prostitution is much more noble behavior. That is why high minded Jews like you prefer them over anything legal.

    Do you even know what mut’ah is?

    BTW, what does usury and mut’ah have to do with the original article or do you just like to bring up extraneous matters to divert attention from the illegal behavior of Israel in the Middle East and other places.

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    • Replies: @lavoisier
    I answered with facts.

    And one insult: Your defense of the Islamic Republic as a legitimate form of government, totally indifferent to their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people, tells me all I need to know about you as a person.
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  192. Talha says:
    @NoseytheDuke
    Another commenter here once posted a list of "serving" politicians who obtained deferment from the draft. It was a lengthy list indeed.

    Hey NtD,

    I don’t have a great love for the various kings and emperors of the past, but it must be said that many of them at least were not cowards and went out to the field of battle with their men and some even led the charge. Our politicians (most of them) are absolutely deplorable in that regard.

    Peace.

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  193. utu says:

    what does usury and mut’ah have to do with the original article

    We would not be here if your co-religionist did cut into my comment that I made to somebody else somebody else (TomSchmidt) which had nothing to do with the Muslim mambo-jambo BS. But we are here where we are only because your co-reloginist wanted to share some wisdom about his mambo-jambo Muslim BS. I was compelled to respond because any mambo-jambo, not only of Muslim BS type, deserves a response.

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    Yup - that was my fault - definitely won't make that mistake again.
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  194. Talha says:
    @utu
    Your non usury Muslim BS is on the same level as that of Pentagon claim that they never kill civilians because the dead civilians resulting from their actions are a collateral damage.

    I did not say you Muslims are hypocrites which I am sure you are guilty of as well, but I said that you are worse than hypocrites because using linguistic technicalities (semantic shenanigans) you relabel some activities as kosher while in their essences they are no different than activities forbidden by your own "moral" precepts. The best example of this are nikah mut‘ah (and misyar and urfi among Sunis) marriages used for a sole purpose of sexual gratification to circumvent the precepts against prostitution and adultery.

    Purchasing anything for some form credit, i..e, when you do not have your own money, always amounts to paying more than the cash prices. The difference between the credit amount and the cash price is equivalent to interest though it might be called something else. How do you call it is irrelevant. What is important is that you engage in activity that is equivalent to taking a loan that is burdened with an interest. But you think just like Pentagon that you do not really kill civilians because you were clever enough to relabel the dead civilians as a collateral damage. Sorry man, your BS does not fly just like Pentagon's BS does not fly. Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.

    Hey utu,

    but I said that you are worse than hypocrites

    No problem. Then I’m sure you will be making sure (as I do) to shut down any interest collecting accounts you have at the bank, shut down any investments in the bond market, pay your credit card bill on time so you don’t pay interest charges, etc. I mean, you wouldn’t want to be shown up by an unprincipled hypocrite like me in this regard, would you?

    How do you call it is irrelevant.

    I’ve written enough and don’t feel like repeating myself. I don’t expect you to understand the difference honestly – it is a complicated subject. But I do expect people to be principled in their stances. So will you call out medieval Christian scholars like Aquinas for making similar distinctions (as linked to in post #173) as hypocrites?

    nikah mut‘ah

    This is a Shiah thing – you can ask them about it. Though I will say, they are not hypocrites about it – the name mut’ah is derived from the word “enjoyment” – they feel it was never outlawed. It is a juristic difference. You can read about it in any of the risalahs of their living mujtahid scholars. We Sunnis disagree, of course.

    misyar and urfi

    A marriage with pre-nuptial agreements where a woman or man give up some of their rights (like right to housing, maintenance, etc.) is valid (though discouraged) according to us Sunnis. If it has a time component attached to it – it is invalid from the get go:
    “d) The absence of a fixed time-period. It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace).”

    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6159

    Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.

    We taqiyyah hard around these parts yo!

    If I remember correctly, you were the person admonishing me to not get into these kinds of side conversations or random Islamic subjects. I’m going to take your advice on it and take this opportunity to end the discussion.

    Peace.

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    It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace).”
     
    Let us keep the facts straight. The second Caliph prohibited it, not the prophet. Not even a prophet as great as the last one can prohibit something that Allah allows. There is no ayah in Qur'an abrogating the original ayah (4:24).

    I tried to avoid this discussion but I cannot let a wrong statement go. As far as I am concerned I have set the record straight and will not comment any more.
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  195. Talha says:
    @utu
    what does usury and mut’ah have to do with the original article

    We would not be here if your co-religionist did cut into my comment that I made to somebody else somebody else (TomSchmidt) which had nothing to do with the Muslim mambo-jambo BS. But we are here where we are only because your co-reloginist wanted to share some wisdom about his mambo-jambo Muslim BS. I was compelled to respond because any mambo-jambo, not only of Muslim BS type, deserves a response.

    Yup – that was my fault – definitely won’t make that mistake again.

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  196. @Talha

    Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin
     
    Some people still get this - this is very hopeful. For your consideration:
    “De Vitry didn’t care whether the rate was high or low, because the Church’s position was that extracting a single cent of interest was evil. The roots of this revulsion run deep, and across cultures. Vedic law in Ancient India condemned usury, and rulers routinely capped interest rates from Ancient Mesopotamia to Ancient Greece. In Politics, Aristotle described usury as ‘the birth of money from money’, and claimed it was unnatural because money was sterile and should not ‘breed’.”

    https://aeon.co/essays/how-did-usury-stop-being-a-sin-and-become-respectable-finance

    Your posts on sin, hope and forgiveness were wonderful to read - please keep encouraging people to not be consumed by their inner demons - it is a message that humanity is in desperate need of.

    Peace, much respect and do not deprive me of your prayers.

    Thank you for the kindness of your comment, Talha.

    Interest in fact is not usury. For example, it is not usury to loan a man money to buy a house, secured by the house alone, a non-recourse loan. It IS usury to have debt secured not by assets but by the person of the debtor, literally turning him into a slave owned by the holder of debt.

    In this regard, the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005 was the worst thing done by George W Bush, in a litany of bad things. Especially sealing the doom of the kids who took out loans for degrees that cannot pay off (the stupidity of doing this is another issue. Stupidity should get punished; previously, it was by bankruptcy and denial of access to the credit markets for 7 years.) and cannot ever get from under the debt.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt who will try to make minimum payments for 25 years, and then have the balance forgiven. I advised instead that they move to the EU, where she can obtain citizenship, and then from a position of strength negotiate their unpayable debt with lenders. Trashing their credit in the USA will not likely harm them in the EU.

    Otherwise, a lot of our young will take the route of going to Islamic countries to escape the debt loads, as Christians in former Byzantine lands did at the initial Arab conquest.

    You might google Zippy Catholic’s Usury FAQ for an overview of the issues from a Thomist perspective.

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    Hey Tom,

    Yes, I enjoyed that "Catholic Usury" blog. Very interesting and very informative. As you likely know - we differ in the details on what we consider usury/interest; for us it is the same thing anytime a loan is introduced whether there is a guarantee on a commodity or not - you simply can't add onto the return payment on top of principal. As I mentioned in my other posts, one can definitely make a profit, but not directly on the principal. But I definitely benefited from reviewing the logic and the rationale behind the Catholic position which make sense once you understand the underlying intent and goals.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt
     
    Egads! That is horrific - I hope they are able to escape that chain. I have been blessed to pay all my credit cards off on the date they are due and avoid debt like the plague (as my teachers have taught me) - it is very liberating!

    Also, do you have a Catholic reference for their position on the various financial instruments and activities like short sales, derivative markets, etc.

    Peace.
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  197. @utu
    "it wasn’t evil from conception"

    This is an interesting issue. Certainly there were different layers of knowledge about the outcomes and consequences. There were some people who knew more and knew that passing the law in 1913 hinged on the fact that some people who were to vote for it knew less. If there was "an evil" it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer? I also would need to know about feasible alternatives to demand a change. In case of Obama Care I knew that it was written in such a way so insurance companies would get their share and I know of a viable alternative where we could exclude insurance companies and make less expensive and broader system. In the case of banking and money creation I can imagine some alternatives like: (1) just nationalize FED and make it really federal or (2) use gold as standard. I do not see however how either or both of these options would be necessarily significantly better.

    "Ultimately, an economy that permits usury and makes it central to its operations is an economy based on sin."

    While I like the idea of sin in this respect unfortunately I can't imagine a system where loans are made w/o some fee being charged for it. So it all comes to the question of how the fee is calculated and justified. What formula? The interest can be looked at as just a fee. In Islamic banking they charge a fee but do not call it an interest. Even Catholic Church at some point had to redefine usury as an excessive (usurious) interests rates. The question is what is excessive. So if there is a sin it must be in the intent only.

    "David Graeber’s book Debt"

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter

    The author claims that debt and credit historically appeared before money, which itself appeared before barter. This is the opposite of the narrative given in standard economics texts dating back to Adam Smith. To support this, he cites numerous historical, ethnographic and archaeological studies. He also claims that the standard economics texts cite no evidence for suggesting that barter came before money, credit and debt, and he has seen no credible reports suggesting such.
     
    just does not make sense.

    I see that Talha has made an effort to explain Islamic finance. One thing you must remember about Islam: you are not allowed to make another Muslim a slave. Christians and Pagans are fair game in this regard. I beLieve in Judaism that Jews were only allowed to lend at interest to non-Jews.

    This is also the Thomist position. Debt has the ability to turn the debtor into a slave of the creditor. In Judaism, they addressed the issue by having a jubilee every 7 years, where debts were forgiven; this is where we get our 7-year bankruptcy record blight from.

    So, the question of usury is: does the creditor own a loan backed by collateral that is the exclusive backing of the loan, or is it backed by the earning capacity of the debtor? In the former case, it is not usury, no matter what interest rate is charged. In the latter case, the interest is usury, even if only .1% interest is charged. The lender has to more carefully evaluate the deal, as he has no ability to turn the debtor into a debt slave.

    Graeber points out in Debt that slavery returned to Western societies concomitant with the end of usury (oh, and Calvin and Luther were both steadfast against usury, but their followers adapted their beliefs to the age of conquest and empire).

    If there was “an evil” it must have been in the most secret layer. Unfortunately even now most people (myself included) do not have a clue who really benefits the most form the system. Is there a secret layer?
    Yeah, that’s the point. If it wasn’t evil from the start matters little to how corrupted it has become. It needs to be replaced. Free banking, perhaps? The Fed was a reaction to the breakdown of a system that suffered crises over the 19th century, most of them caused by war.

    I looked up in wiki and it sounds very interesting. However his idea that money came before barter Just does not make sense

    Graeber is an anthropologist, and he takes an anthropologist’s view of Debt and economic issues. It lets you triangulate the issue from a different perspective. I understand your objection; it was exactly mine before reading the book. Graeber points out that the idea that money was invented after the failure of a barter system was a fairy tale invented by Adam Smith; there is no society on earth studied by anthropologists where this happened, and he details what happens in a barter ceremony in Australia in a true barter economy.

    This revelation alone is worth the reading.

    Once you come to see that, once again, the economists have just sanded away the edges of reality to fit their models, you start to see how the system we live under was built, with intellectuals singing dithyrambs to the wonders of the powers that be. The phrase “physics envy” describes mos of the intellectual ferment in economics.

    Last point you’ll derive from the book: Adam Smith plagiarized the story of the pin factory. That, again, is worth the price of admission. The book is long, but you can probably obtain the audiobook from your local library. Listen to it; fill the empty time shopping or driving, and see if it doesn’t radically alter your perspective. It did mine.

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  198. @Rurik
    Hey Tom,

    My evaluation or reconsideration is that it wasn’t evil from conception; that of course is irrelevant to now, when it serves as a giant wealth pump from the creative economy into the financial one.
     
    I think it was evil from conception. There were many American patriots who knew the dangers of a privately-owned central bank. Indeed, I think that was one of the main, if not the main reason the founders fought the American Revolutionary war against England, because King George demanded that the colonies use Bank of England debt based currency for trade rather than colonial script. From what I understand, the war of 1812 was nothing less than Rothchild sending in the troop to enslave USA to British (Rothschild) central bank / debt.

    Andrew Jackson's battle with this "den of vipers & thieves" is famous, and it nearly cost him his life to a would-be assassin.

    And look how they snuck it in on Christmas eve, when they figured no one was watching.

    or the words of warning from so many

    "Whoever controls the volume of money in any country is absolute master of all industry and commerce." -- James A. Garfield, President of the United States

    "This [Federal Reserve Act] establishes the most gigantic trust on earth. When the President [Wilson} signs this bill, the invisible government of the monetary power will be legalized....the worst legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and currency bill." -- Charles A. Lindbergh, Sr. , 1913

    "From now on, depressions will be scientifically created." -- Congressman Charles A. Lindbergh Sr. , 1913

    "The [Federal Reserve Act] as it stands seems to me to open the way to a vast inflation of the currency... I do not like to think that any law can be passed that will make it possible to submerge the gold standard in a flood of irredeemable paper currency." -- Henry Cabot Lodge Sr., 1913


    "History records that the money changers have used every form of abuse, intrigue, deceit, and violent means possible to maintain their control over governments by controlling money and it's issuance." -- James Madison

    just a few..

    The voracious debt mongers of our society are going to insist that all that unpayable debt be paid, and spark another revolution.
     
    I suspect they like the status quo, where Americans (and others) simply act as their debt slaves, as ((they)) 'live off the fat of the land', with the American people acting as their slaves or cannon fodder, as the case may be. While they lord it over everyone with their paper money, and use that paper money to buy up everything of consequence. And not one in ten thousand have the slightest clue as to the supreme swindle being perpetrated upon them... as its off to another kosher war.

    If you haven’t read David Graeber’s book Debt yet, do so in the next month.
     
    fascinating, thanks!

    a quick look at the book and its meaning took me to this Wikipage

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axial_Age

    In literature, Gore Vidal in his novel Creation covers much of this Axial Age through the fictional perspective of a Persian adventurer.
     
    another worthy book perhaps

    cheers

    I think it was evil from conception. There were many American patriots who knew the dangers of a privately-owned central bank.

    I think the idea of controlling currency through force is the original evil. Used to share your opinion about the Fed. Stockman shows it as an attempt to create a decentralized (yes, really) Reserve banking system to deal with the liquidity issues created by a system based on borrowing short and lending long. In this sense, the Fed was to play the role of JP Morgan instopping future panics like the one in 1907 (major difference: Morgan had skin in the game, and only bailed out illiquid, not insolvent, debtors.) JP would die the same year as the Fed was created, so they put in place a system that was like JP without the swollen nose just in time.

    As we know, it did not work, largely because the bankers re-centralized the system to their advantage. I think it could never work for that reason, unless, to quote another founder, men were angels. The intervention is required, however, given the underlying instability of the banking system it is built on top of. THAT is evil, which requires subsequent fixes like making a Fed.

    I’ll pickup a copy of the Axial Age. Thanks for the reference, Rurik.

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  199. Talha says:
    @TomSchmidt
    Thank you for the kindness of your comment, Talha.

    Interest in fact is not usury. For example, it is not usury to loan a man money to buy a house, secured by the house alone, a non-recourse loan. It IS usury to have debt secured not by assets but by the person of the debtor, literally turning him into a slave owned by the holder of debt.

    In this regard, the Bankruptcy Reform Act of 2005 was the worst thing done by George W Bush, in a litany of bad things. Especially sealing the doom of the kids who took out loans for degrees that cannot pay off (the stupidity of doing this is another issue. Stupidity should get punished; previously, it was by bankruptcy and denial of access to the credit markets for 7 years.) and cannot ever get from under the debt.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt who will try to make minimum payments for 25 years, and then have the balance forgiven. I advised instead that they move to the EU, where she can obtain citizenship, and then from a position of strength negotiate their unpayable debt with lenders. Trashing their credit in the USA will not likely harm them in the EU.

    Otherwise, a lot of our young will take the route of going to Islamic countries to escape the debt loads, as Christians in former Byzantine lands did at the initial Arab conquest.

    You might google Zippy Catholic's Usury FAQ for an overview of the issues from a Thomist perspective.

    Hey Tom,

    Yes, I enjoyed that “Catholic Usury” blog. Very interesting and very informative. As you likely know – we differ in the details on what we consider usury/interest; for us it is the same thing anytime a loan is introduced whether there is a guarantee on a commodity or not – you simply can’t add onto the return payment on top of principal. As I mentioned in my other posts, one can definitely make a profit, but not directly on the principal. But I definitely benefited from reviewing the logic and the rationale behind the Catholic position which make sense once you understand the underlying intent and goals.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt

    Egads! That is horrific – I hope they are able to escape that chain. I have been blessed to pay all my credit cards off on the date they are due and avoid debt like the plague (as my teachers have taught me) – it is very liberating!

    Also, do you have a Catholic reference for their position on the various financial instruments and activities like short sales, derivative markets, etc.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TomSchmidt
    I don't have a good overall source on Catholic finance. That is an interesting idea: what would a Catholic financial system look like? Probably something like the Middle Ages, where price competition is forbidden so that craftsmen have to compete only on quality.

    Graeber, in Debt, points out that Mohammed was a merchant, and so the social and financial system he setup was designed not to shovel money to financiers, but to merchants and traders. You might find a lot of good tidbits in there.
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  200. lavoisier says: • Website
    @MEexpert

    Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.
     
    Only yours and Israel's BS is kosher.

    The best example of this are nikah mut‘ah (and misyar and urfi among Sunis) marriages used for a sole purpose of sexual gratification to circumvent the precepts against prostitution and adultery.
     
    You are so right. Adultery and prostitution is much more noble behavior. That is why high minded Jews like you prefer them over anything legal.

    Do you even know what mut'ah is?

    BTW, what does usury and mut'ah have to do with the original article or do you just like to bring up extraneous matters to divert attention from the illegal behavior of Israel in the Middle East and other places.

    I answered with facts.

    And one insult: Your defense of the Islamic Republic as a legitimate form of government, totally indifferent to their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people, tells me all I need to know about you as a person.

    Read More
    • Replies: @MEexpert
    Blah, Blah,...... Repeating same thing over and over again does not make it a fact. I think you can't even pronounce Iran correctly. You probably pronounce it as I-ran.

    Nothing you have written so far has made me change my mind about you. You are still a fraud and know nothing about Iran.
    , @annamaria
    And you prefer Saudis -- for their "non-despotic" nature and for their sizeable contributions to Clinton Foundation and the Atlantic Council (always Israel-firster and always russophobic).

    You write about the Islamic Republic, "...their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people.."
    -- The Iranian people are doing fine without your invectives. They voted for this government: "Of the 41 million votes cast, Mr. Rouhani won 23 million (or 57 percent), soundly defeating his chief opponent, Ebrahim Raisi, who received 15.7 million (38.5 percent). Turnout was heavy, with more than 70 percent of Iran’s 56 million voters casting ballots." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/middleeast/iran-election-hassan-rouhani.html
    Take your pro-Israel propaganda to the like-minded Israel-firsters who are unable to be loyal to the US. The demonization of Iran is coming from the same Jewish quarters that led the U.S. to squander its treasure and reputation and to waste the lives of Americans in Iraq, Libya, and Syria.
    The collusion between Likudniks and Cheney cabal: https://www.nationofchange.org/2017/01/15/cheney-rothschild-fox-news-murdoch-drill-oil-syria-violating-international-law/
    The Golan Heights
    "Genie Oil: The Syria, Goldman Sachs, Israel, ISIS connection:" http://www.trunews.com/article/genie-oil-the-syria-goldman-sachs-israel-isis-connection
    "...the company named Genie Energy, with major investors and advisors such as Lord Rothschild, former VP Dick Cheney and news mogul Rupert Murdoch, could be at the center of decade long play for Israeli energy dominance in the Middle East. Other major players associated with Genie Energy include economist Larry Summers, Democratic Party veteran Bill Richardson, and former CIA director James Woolsey.
    Genie Energy Ltd. (GNEPRA) is an American-based oil and gas company comprised of two operating divisions, Genie Retail Energy division (GRE) and Genie Oil and Gas (GOGAS).... The current President of Afek Oil and Gas is Efraim “Effi” Eitam, a former Israeli military commander who called for expelling Arabs from Israel.

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  201. MEexpert says:
    @lavoisier
    I answered with facts.

    And one insult: Your defense of the Islamic Republic as a legitimate form of government, totally indifferent to their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people, tells me all I need to know about you as a person.

    Blah, Blah,…… Repeating same thing over and over again does not make it a fact. I think you can’t even pronounce Iran correctly. You probably pronounce it as I-ran.

    Nothing you have written so far has made me change my mind about you. You are still a fraud and know nothing about Iran.

    Read More
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  202. MEexpert says:
    @Talha
    Hey utu,

    but I said that you are worse than hypocrites
     
    No problem. Then I'm sure you will be making sure (as I do) to shut down any interest collecting accounts you have at the bank, shut down any investments in the bond market, pay your credit card bill on time so you don't pay interest charges, etc. I mean, you wouldn't want to be shown up by an unprincipled hypocrite like me in this regard, would you?

    How do you call it is irrelevant.
     
    I've written enough and don't feel like repeating myself. I don't expect you to understand the difference honestly - it is a complicated subject. But I do expect people to be principled in their stances. So will you call out medieval Christian scholars like Aquinas for making similar distinctions (as linked to in post #173) as hypocrites?

    nikah mut‘ah
     
    This is a Shiah thing - you can ask them about it. Though I will say, they are not hypocrites about it - the name mut'ah is derived from the word "enjoyment" - they feel it was never outlawed. It is a juristic difference. You can read about it in any of the risalahs of their living mujtahid scholars. We Sunnis disagree, of course.

    misyar and urfi
     
    A marriage with pre-nuptial agreements where a woman or man give up some of their rights (like right to housing, maintenance, etc.) is valid (though discouraged) according to us Sunnis. If it has a time component attached to it - it is invalid from the get go:
    "d) The absence of a fixed time-period. It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace)."
    http://www.daruliftaa.com/node/6159

    Your Muslim BS is not clever enough.
     
    We taqiyyah hard around these parts yo!

    If I remember correctly, you were the person admonishing me to not get into these kinds of side conversations or random Islamic subjects. I'm going to take your advice on it and take this opportunity to end the discussion.

    Peace.

    It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace).”

    Let us keep the facts straight. The second Caliph prohibited it, not the prophet. Not even a prophet as great as the last one can prohibit something that Allah allows. There is no ayah in Qur’an abrogating the original ayah (4:24).

    I tried to avoid this discussion but I cannot let a wrong statement go. As far as I am concerned I have set the record straight and will not comment any more.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Salaam Bro,

    Let us keep the facts straight.
     
    Whenever dealing with these issues it is very difficult to make clear statements since the differences are predicated on opinions on what exactly the facts are. You have of course outlined the Shiah position - which is what the Shiah brothers at UCLA used to mention. :)

    When differences arise even within Sunni schools, it is hard to expect Shiah conclusions to always be congruent especially due to differences in approaches to foundational principles and even which hadith collections are valid in the first place. Some people think this is a big deal - I don't. Differences of opinion are a mercy and the debate over which evidence is more sound or conclusive is way, way above my pay grade - let the scholars debate it, that's their job - I just enjoy studying their works.

    As Imam Shafi'i (ra) famously stated; "I believe my opinion is right with the possibility that it is wrong and I believe the opinion of those who disagree with me is wrong with the possibility of it being correct."

    Wa salaam

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  203. Talha says:
    @MEexpert

    It is a basic requirement of a valid marriage contract that it does not entail any agreement of it being limited to a specified time such as two moths or five days, since it is essentially the Mut’a marriage that has been explicitly prohibited by the Messenger of Allah (Allah bless him and give him peace).”
     
    Let us keep the facts straight. The second Caliph prohibited it, not the prophet. Not even a prophet as great as the last one can prohibit something that Allah allows. There is no ayah in Qur'an abrogating the original ayah (4:24).

    I tried to avoid this discussion but I cannot let a wrong statement go. As far as I am concerned I have set the record straight and will not comment any more.

    Salaam Bro,

    Let us keep the facts straight.

    Whenever dealing with these issues it is very difficult to make clear statements since the differences are predicated on opinions on what exactly the facts are. You have of course outlined the Shiah position – which is what the Shiah brothers at UCLA used to mention. :)

    When differences arise even within Sunni schools, it is hard to expect Shiah conclusions to always be congruent especially due to differences in approaches to foundational principles and even which hadith collections are valid in the first place. Some people think this is a big deal – I don’t. Differences of opinion are a mercy and the debate over which evidence is more sound or conclusive is way, way above my pay grade – let the scholars debate it, that’s their job – I just enjoy studying their works.

    As Imam Shafi’i (ra) famously stated; “I believe my opinion is right with the possibility that it is wrong and I believe the opinion of those who disagree with me is wrong with the possibility of it being correct.”

    Wa salaam

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  204. @Talha
    Hey Tom,

    Yes, I enjoyed that "Catholic Usury" blog. Very interesting and very informative. As you likely know - we differ in the details on what we consider usury/interest; for us it is the same thing anytime a loan is introduced whether there is a guarantee on a commodity or not - you simply can't add onto the return payment on top of principal. As I mentioned in my other posts, one can definitely make a profit, but not directly on the principal. But I definitely benefited from reviewing the logic and the rationale behind the Catholic position which make sense once you understand the underlying intent and goals.

    I know one young couple with combined 300k in debt
     
    Egads! That is horrific - I hope they are able to escape that chain. I have been blessed to pay all my credit cards off on the date they are due and avoid debt like the plague (as my teachers have taught me) - it is very liberating!

    Also, do you have a Catholic reference for their position on the various financial instruments and activities like short sales, derivative markets, etc.

    Peace.

    I don’t have a good overall source on Catholic finance. That is an interesting idea: what would a Catholic financial system look like? Probably something like the Middle Ages, where price competition is forbidden so that craftsmen have to compete only on quality.

    Graeber, in Debt, points out that Mohammed was a merchant, and so the social and financial system he setup was designed not to shovel money to financiers, but to merchants and traders. You might find a lot of good tidbits in there.

    Read More
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  205. annamaria says:
    @lavoisier
    I answered with facts.

    And one insult: Your defense of the Islamic Republic as a legitimate form of government, totally indifferent to their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people, tells me all I need to know about you as a person.

    And you prefer Saudis — for their “non-despotic” nature and for their sizeable contributions to Clinton Foundation and the Atlantic Council (always Israel-firster and always russophobic).

    You write about the Islamic Republic, “…their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people..”
    – The Iranian people are doing fine without your invectives. They voted for this government: “Of the 41 million votes cast, Mr. Rouhani won 23 million (or 57 percent), soundly defeating his chief opponent, Ebrahim Raisi, who received 15.7 million (38.5 percent). Turnout was heavy, with more than 70 percent of Iran’s 56 million voters casting ballots.” https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/middleeast/iran-election-hassan-rouhani.html
    Take your pro-Israel propaganda to the like-minded Israel-firsters who are unable to be loyal to the US. The demonization of Iran is coming from the same Jewish quarters that led the U.S. to squander its treasure and reputation and to waste the lives of Americans in Iraq, Libya, and Syria.
    The collusion between Likudniks and Cheney cabal: https://www.nationofchange.org/2017/01/15/cheney-rothschild-fox-news-murdoch-drill-oil-syria-violating-international-law/
    The Golan Heights
    “Genie Oil: The Syria, Goldman Sachs, Israel, ISIS connection:” http://www.trunews.com/article/genie-oil-the-syria-goldman-sachs-israel-isis-connection
    “…the company named Genie Energy, with major investors and advisors such as Lord Rothschild, former VP Dick Cheney and news mogul Rupert Murdoch, could be at the center of decade long play for Israeli energy dominance in the Middle East. Other major players associated with Genie Energy include economist Larry Summers, Democratic Party veteran Bill Richardson, and former CIA director James Woolsey.
    Genie Energy Ltd. (GNEPRA) is an American-based oil and gas company comprised of two operating divisions, Genie Retail Energy division (GRE) and Genie Oil and Gas (GOGAS)…. The current President of Afek Oil and Gas is Efraim “Effi” Eitam, a former Israeli military commander who called for expelling Arabs from Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Thanks Anna. I love your posts.

    I am not defending our crimes or the crimes of Israel. Nor am I pretending that we are virtuous and they are savages.

    I am just telling you what I have learned about Iran from the Iranian people.

    And with the exception of the true believers, they are uniformly disturbed by the cruelty of their theocracy.

    Yes, there are elections in Iran. Yes, the people vote. But all the candidates have been vetted by the theocratic cabal that runs the country. This is not a republic. And that cabal is cruel and despotic.

    But please do not take my criticism of the Islamic regime as advocating for a war with Iran.

    For such a war would harm the Iranian people.
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  206. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    I know one thing: I do not want more nuclear weapons in the Middle East.

    If Iran goes nuclear, some other nasty nations nearby will go nuclear such as Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Azerbaijan, Egypt, and possibly others.

    None of these nations are responsible enough.

    I regret that Pakistan went nuclear. They’re crazy.

    To go along with this, the US must also disengage from Israel. Let Israel go its own way.
    Whatever you may think of Israel, it is probably not nutty.

    The other countries I mentioned, and many more, are reckless. They will use nukes.

    By the way, they’re NOT Christian nations. They aren’t really our friends, though I don’t mean to imply that every Christian nation is.

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  207. lavoisier says: • Website
    @SolontoCroesus

    (Clearly the people of Iran are not free – they are given false choices by their leaders. I have hope things will change.)
     
    Ah, yes.
    We are the government and we are here to save you, to make you just as free as Americans are

    https://theintercept.com/2017/07/19/u-s-lawmakers-seek-to-criminally-outlaw-support-for-boycott-campaign-against-israel/

    Try this different perspective:

    Iran is a bright and shining light for other countries to follow, like Venezuela, Brazil, North Korea - even Europe, those in Europe who are tired of the Washington dictate, but so far haven’t dared taking the actions needed to gain back their national sovereignty. http://english.khamenei.ir/news/4740/Iran-is-a-bright-and-shining-light-for-other-countries-to-follow
     
    In addition -- a few months ago The Saker featured this article:

    Sacred Communities and The Emergent Multipolar Landscape, by Blake Archer
    http://thesaker.is/sacred-communities-and-the-emergent-multipolar-landscape/

    I became acquainted with Blake Archer several years ago when he posted a comment about how so many Muslims in Iran, like himself, appreciate being part of a nation/community that values their Islamic principles. Archer was working on the book(s) that are referenced in the Saker piece; they're a little dense for my level of understanding, but the overriding point is that the Iranian people are in a better position to decide what they think about their government, and many of them value living in a nation that endorses their cultural and moral values.

    And far more of them want to live in a republic and not a theocracy.

    They don’t want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches. They want the freedom to think and say what they believe.

    I love this site, but just because I consider the Islamic theocracy a horrible abomination and a persecutor of the Iranian people does not mean I defend US war with Iran.

    I can accept without hesitation that we have no business meddling with this nation and getting involved in a war with them. But people here are delusional if they think the Islamic Republic is supported by the majority of the Iranian people.

    That is simply not true. It is a very cruel and barbaric regime.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {They don’t want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches.}

    I did some research about homosexuals being hanged in Iran a while back for another comment in another thread (don't care to re-dig it now). The source of the allegation was a pro-homosexual NGO: they had no evidence.

    Iran does publicly hang people, but the people hanged are pretty much all drug dealers, murderers, and such. If the drug dealer who was hanged happened to be homosexual, then the story becomes "Iran hangs homosexuals". I admit public hanging is an ugly spectacle, but public beheadings routinely done KSA is far more bloody and disgusting, don't you agree?
    Yet KSA is an alleged 'ally' of US.

    About dogs: that also shows Western bias.

    Sorry, but most of the world treats dogs very differently than say here in US.
    Dog are considered food in many parts of Asia.
    It is disgusting for me personally, but I imagine we eating beef here in US is considered disgusting by about 1 billion Hindus, for example.

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  208. lavoisier says: • Website
    @annamaria
    And you prefer Saudis -- for their "non-despotic" nature and for their sizeable contributions to Clinton Foundation and the Atlantic Council (always Israel-firster and always russophobic).

    You write about the Islamic Republic, "...their cruel and despotic nature and the crimes they have committed against the Iranian people.."
    -- The Iranian people are doing fine without your invectives. They voted for this government: "Of the 41 million votes cast, Mr. Rouhani won 23 million (or 57 percent), soundly defeating his chief opponent, Ebrahim Raisi, who received 15.7 million (38.5 percent). Turnout was heavy, with more than 70 percent of Iran’s 56 million voters casting ballots." https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/20/world/middleeast/iran-election-hassan-rouhani.html
    Take your pro-Israel propaganda to the like-minded Israel-firsters who are unable to be loyal to the US. The demonization of Iran is coming from the same Jewish quarters that led the U.S. to squander its treasure and reputation and to waste the lives of Americans in Iraq, Libya, and Syria.
    The collusion between Likudniks and Cheney cabal: https://www.nationofchange.org/2017/01/15/cheney-rothschild-fox-news-murdoch-drill-oil-syria-violating-international-law/
    The Golan Heights
    "Genie Oil: The Syria, Goldman Sachs, Israel, ISIS connection:" http://www.trunews.com/article/genie-oil-the-syria-goldman-sachs-israel-isis-connection
    "...the company named Genie Energy, with major investors and advisors such as Lord Rothschild, former VP Dick Cheney and news mogul Rupert Murdoch, could be at the center of decade long play for Israeli energy dominance in the Middle East. Other major players associated with Genie Energy include economist Larry Summers, Democratic Party veteran Bill Richardson, and former CIA director James Woolsey.
    Genie Energy Ltd. (GNEPRA) is an American-based oil and gas company comprised of two operating divisions, Genie Retail Energy division (GRE) and Genie Oil and Gas (GOGAS).... The current President of Afek Oil and Gas is Efraim “Effi” Eitam, a former Israeli military commander who called for expelling Arabs from Israel.

    Thanks Anna. I love your posts.

    I am not defending our crimes or the crimes of Israel. Nor am I pretending that we are virtuous and they are savages.

    I am just telling you what I have learned about Iran from the Iranian people.

    And with the exception of the true believers, they are uniformly disturbed by the cruelty of their theocracy.

    Yes, there are elections in Iran. Yes, the people vote. But all the candidates have been vetted by the theocratic cabal that runs the country. This is not a republic. And that cabal is cruel and despotic.

    But please do not take my criticism of the Islamic regime as advocating for a war with Iran.

    For such a war would harm the Iranian people.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {I am just telling you what I have learned about Iran from the Iranian people.
    And with the exception of the true believers, they are uniformly disturbed by the cruelty of their theocracy. }


    Iranian people where?
    Here in the West?
    If that is your only source, then it is only one side.

    I an not Iranian, and have neither visited Iran nor lived there.
    But I get the same sort of thing about Republic of Armenia (not religious, of course).
    There is a segment of Armenian Diaspora here in California, that absolutely hates the current administration of Republic of Armenia. Some of what they allege is true, but most of is manufactured lies and disinformation.

    I have close family and friends living there, and close family members who regularly travel back and forth. The allegations of the Armenian Diaspora malcontents about the authorities there are mostly lies.
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  209. Avery says:
    @lavoisier
    Thanks Anna. I love your posts.

    I am not defending our crimes or the crimes of Israel. Nor am I pretending that we are virtuous and they are savages.

    I am just telling you what I have learned about Iran from the Iranian people.

    And with the exception of the true believers, they are uniformly disturbed by the cruelty of their theocracy.

    Yes, there are elections in Iran. Yes, the people vote. But all the candidates have been vetted by the theocratic cabal that runs the country. This is not a republic. And that cabal is cruel and despotic.

    But please do not take my criticism of the Islamic regime as advocating for a war with Iran.

    For such a war would harm the Iranian people.

    {I am just telling you what I have learned about Iran from the Iranian people.
    And with the exception of the true believers, they are uniformly disturbed by the cruelty of their theocracy. }

    Iranian people where?
    Here in the West?
    If that is your only source, then it is only one side.

    I an not Iranian, and have neither visited Iran nor lived there.
    But I get the same sort of thing about Republic of Armenia (not religious, of course).
    There is a segment of Armenian Diaspora here in California, that absolutely hates the current administration of Republic of Armenia. Some of what they allege is true, but most of is manufactured lies and disinformation.

    I have close family and friends living there, and close family members who regularly travel back and forth. The allegations of the Armenian Diaspora malcontents about the authorities there are mostly lies.

    Read More
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  210. Avery says:
    @lavoisier
    And far more of them want to live in a republic and not a theocracy.

    They don't want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches. They want the freedom to think and say what they believe.

    I love this site, but just because I consider the Islamic theocracy a horrible abomination and a persecutor of the Iranian people does not mean I defend US war with Iran.

    I can accept without hesitation that we have no business meddling with this nation and getting involved in a war with them. But people here are delusional if they think the Islamic Republic is supported by the majority of the Iranian people.

    That is simply not true. It is a very cruel and barbaric regime.

    {They don’t want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches.}

    I did some research about homosexuals being hanged in Iran a while back for another comment in another thread (don’t care to re-dig it now). The source of the allegation was a pro-homosexual NGO: they had no evidence.

    Iran does publicly hang people, but the people hanged are pretty much all drug dealers, murderers, and such. If the drug dealer who was hanged happened to be homosexual, then the story becomes “Iran hangs homosexuals”. I admit public hanging is an ugly spectacle, but public beheadings routinely done KSA is far more bloody and disgusting, don’t you agree?
    Yet KSA is an alleged ‘ally’ of US.

    About dogs: that also shows Western bias.

    Sorry, but most of the world treats dogs very differently than say here in US.
    Dog are considered food in many parts of Asia.
    It is disgusting for me personally, but I imagine we eating beef here in US is considered disgusting by about 1 billion Hindus, for example.

    Read More
    • Replies: @lavoisier
    Thoughtful post Avery.

    I agree that what is right and what is wrong is often culturally determined. And you are right that what we consider "good" would be considered an abomination by others. For example, third trimester abortions would likely be seen as murder in most of what we call the "Third World." Sexual promiscuity an abomination.

    Moral relativism is a real challenge, is it not? If you decide to eat meat, you should be very concerned about how animals are treated and killed. To be indifferent to the suffering that you cause is to be a savage.

    But we have to make certain moral distinctions, we have to be able to recognize evil when it is right in front of our eyes. And the Islamic theocrats in Iran are evil in my eyes. More importantly, they are evil in the eyes of people who have suffered under their despotic rule.

    I am troubled by people on this site, given their well justified concerns about the evils that have been perpetrated by the United States throughout the Middle East at the behest of the Zionists, losing sight that we do not have a monopoly on evil. Israel is NOT the source of all the evil and injustice in our world.

    There is evil in our world, human evil, and it is not confined to the West.

    Our species is in desperate need of adult supervision--God if you will.

    But where is GOD?

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  211. lavoisier says: • Website
    @Avery
    {They don’t want to see homosexuals hanged or dogs treated like cockroaches.}

    I did some research about homosexuals being hanged in Iran a while back for another comment in another thread (don't care to re-dig it now). The source of the allegation was a pro-homosexual NGO: they had no evidence.

    Iran does publicly hang people, but the people hanged are pretty much all drug dealers, murderers, and such. If the drug dealer who was hanged happened to be homosexual, then the story becomes "Iran hangs homosexuals". I admit public hanging is an ugly spectacle, but public beheadings routinely done KSA is far more bloody and disgusting, don't you agree?
    Yet KSA is an alleged 'ally' of US.

    About dogs: that also shows Western bias.

    Sorry, but most of the world treats dogs very differently than say here in US.
    Dog are considered food in many parts of Asia.
    It is disgusting for me personally, but I imagine we eating beef here in US is considered disgusting by about 1 billion Hindus, for example.

    Thoughtful post Avery.

    I agree that what is right and what is wrong is often culturally determined. And you are right that what we consider “good” would be considered an abomination by others. For example, third trimester abortions would likely be seen as murder in most of what we call the “Third World.” Sexual promiscuity an abomination.

    Moral relativism is a real challenge, is it not? If you decide to eat meat, you should be very concerned about how animals are treated and killed. To be indifferent to the suffering that you cause is to be a savage.

    But we have to make certain moral distinctions, we have to be able to recognize evil when it is right in front of our eyes. And the Islamic theocrats in Iran are evil in my eyes. More importantly, they are evil in the eyes of people who have suffered under their despotic rule.

    I am troubled by people on this site, given their well justified concerns about the evils that have been perpetrated by the United States throughout the Middle East at the behest of the Zionists, losing sight that we do not have a monopoly on evil. Israel is NOT the source of all the evil and injustice in our world.

    There is evil in our world, human evil, and it is not confined to the West.

    Our species is in desperate need of adult supervision–God if you will.

    But where is GOD?

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    When I begin to estimate the number of deaths that the US/UK/Zionists have caused in the many wars instigated by them and compare that to the horrors of the Islamic Republic of Iran (which is also a direct result of US/UK meddling) it is like comparing a kitten scratch to a mauling by an entire pride of lions.
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  212. @lavoisier
    Thoughtful post Avery.

    I agree that what is right and what is wrong is often culturally determined. And you are right that what we consider "good" would be considered an abomination by others. For example, third trimester abortions would likely be seen as murder in most of what we call the "Third World." Sexual promiscuity an abomination.

    Moral relativism is a real challenge, is it not? If you decide to eat meat, you should be very concerned about how animals are treated and killed. To be indifferent to the suffering that you cause is to be a savage.

    But we have to make certain moral distinctions, we have to be able to recognize evil when it is right in front of our eyes. And the Islamic theocrats in Iran are evil in my eyes. More importantly, they are evil in the eyes of people who have suffered under their despotic rule.

    I am troubled by people on this site, given their well justified concerns about the evils that have been perpetrated by the United States throughout the Middle East at the behest of the Zionists, losing sight that we do not have a monopoly on evil. Israel is NOT the source of all the evil and injustice in our world.

    There is evil in our world, human evil, and it is not confined to the West.

    Our species is in desperate need of adult supervision--God if you will.

    But where is GOD?

    When I begin to estimate the number of deaths that the US/UK/Zionists have caused in the many wars instigated by them and compare that to the horrors of the Islamic Republic of Iran (which is also a direct result of US/UK meddling) it is like comparing a kitten scratch to a mauling by an entire pride of lions.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
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