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Does the Pope Believe in Hell?
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“Pope Declares No Hell?”

So ran the riveting headline on the Drudge Report of Holy Thursday.

Drudge quoted this exchange, published in La Repubblica, between Pope Francis and his atheist friend, journalist Eugenio Scalfari.

Scalfari: “What about bad souls? Where are they punished?”

Bad souls “are not punished,” Pope Francis is quoted, “those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”

On the first Holy Thursday, Judas betrayed Christ. And of Judas the Lord said, “Woe to that man by whom the Son of Man shall be betrayed; it were better for him if that man had never been born.”

Did the soul of Judas, and those of the monstrous evildoers of history, “just fade away,” as General MacArthur said of old soldiers? If there is no hell, is not the greatest deterrent to the worst of sins removed?

What did Christ die on the cross to save us from?

If Francis made such a statement, it would be rank heresy.

Had the pope been speaking ex cathedra, as the vicar of Christ on earth, he would be contradicting 2,000 years of Catholic doctrine, rooted in the teachings of Christ himself. He would be calling into question papal infallibility, as defined in 1870 by the Vatican Council of Pius IX.

Questions would arise as to whether Francis is a true pope.

The Vatican swiftly issued a statement saying the pope had had a private conversation, not a formal interview, with his friend Scalfari.

The Vatican added: “The textual words pronounced by the pope are not quoted. No quotation of the aforementioned article must therefore be considered as a faithful transcription of the words of the Holy Father.”

Sorry, but this will not do. This does not answer the questions the pope raised in his chat. Does hell exist? Are souls that die in mortal sin damned to hell for all eternity? Does the pope accept this belief? Is this still the infallible teaching of the Roman Catholic Church?

However one may applaud Francis’ stance on social justice, on matters of faith and morals he has called defined doctrine into question and created confusion throughout the Church he heads.

In his letter Amoris Laetitia, “The Joy of Love,” the pope seemed to give approval to the receiving of Holy Communion by divorced and remarried Catholics, whose previous marriages had not been annulled, and whom the Church holds to be living in adultery.

Relying on the pope’s letter, German bishops have begun to authorize the distribution of Communion to divorced and remarried couples.

Cardinal Gerhard Muller, former prefect of the Vatican office for the Doctrine of the Faith, the position once held by Pope Benedict XVI, says this contradicts Catholic doctrine as enunciated by Pope John Paul II.

Said Cardinal Muller, “No power in heaven or on earth, neither an angel nor the pope, not a council, nor a law of the bishops has the faculty to change it.”

Four cardinals, including Raymond Burke of the United States, in a formal letter, asked the pope to clarify Amoris Laetitia. The pope did not, nor has he addressed the cardinals’ concerns.

Indeed, when asked early in his papacy about the immorality of homosexuality, the pope parried the question, “Who am I to judge?”

But if not thee, who? Is not the judging of right and wrong part of the job description?

Nor is it only in the realm of doctrine that the pope has sown confusion among the faithful.

To legalize the underground Catholic Church in China, the pope and the Vatican have agreed to ask Catholic bishops to stand aside for bishops approved by the Communist Party that seeks tighter control of Christian faiths.

The Vatican has also agreed to approve the consecration of a bishop named by Beijing, whom Rome previously regarded as illegitimate.

The capitulation is necessary for the Catholic Church in China to survive and prosper, argues the Vatican. But what kind of church will it become, asks retired Archbishop Joseph Zen Ze-kiun of Hong Kong.

The Vatican is “selling out” the Church in China, says the archbishop: “Some say that all the effort to reach an agreement is to avoid the ecclesial schism. How ridiculous! The schism is there, in the Independent Church!”

ORDER IT NOW

Archbishop Zen concedes his criticism of the Communist Party and the Vatican’s diplomatic efforts are causing problems in closing the rift between the underground Church and the Communist Party-sanctioned church, but makes no apology: “Am I the major obstacle in the process of reaching a deal between the Vatican and China? If that is a bad deal, I would be more than happy to be the obstacle.”

There is a division inside Catholicism that is widening, between a Third World and traditional church that are growing, and a mainstream Church in Europe and here that is taking on aspects of the Anglican Church of the 20th century.

And how did that turn out, Your Holiness?

Happy Easter!

Patrick J. Buchanan is the author of a new book, “Nixon’s White House Wars: The Battles That Made and Broke a President and Divided America Forever.”

Copyright 2018 Creators.com.

 
• Category: Ideology • Tags: Catholic Church, Christianity 
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  1. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    Who needs Hell when we got ‘gay marriage’ in the West?

    And the Africanization of Europe will be hell on earth.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Colleen Pater
  2. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website

    How was Judas evil when he carried out the will of God?

    If not for his ‘betrayal’, there would be no Christianity.

    Besides, he killed himself which shows he felt remorse.

  3. Dan Hayes says:

    You know that the Bergoglio papacy has hit its current absolute nadir when Pat Buchanan, a devoted practicing Catholic, entitles his essay “Does the Pope Believe in Hell?”.

    Since Bergoglio has stated that his personal project is “to mess things up” there is still plenty of room for even greater disimprovements!

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  4. Schismatic Catholics affiliated with the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre are looking better and better.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  5. Alan Newton says: • Website

    The thoughts and comments of ‘the pope’, or any other self-professed title, have no more credibility or authority than that which is allowed by the hearer. The pope is correct in stating that there is no such thing as an eternal, physical hell. But not because ‘the pope’ has declared it so. The Hebrew language of the Old Testament is proof that there never was a concept of a permanent reality referred to as ‘hell’; especially religious man’s interpretation of that nightmare. Catholicism had to manufacture that lie. The ‘pope’ has less Spiritual commonality with God than does my unsophisticated, but incredibly loving and loyal dog. The dog never lies, and is incapable of deceit or malfeasance or avarice or sexual dishonesty. Not so with ‘the pope’, or any other man; regardless of his appointed credentials. Only Yashua (Jesus if you prefer) had the audacity, and the authority, to say “If you have seen me, you have seen The Father”. Yashua did not, however, say the same of ‘the pope’, or the ‘high priest’.

    Alan Newton, Longs, SC

    • Replies: @Stonehands
    , @nsa
  6. “Lizabel said I’m goin’ to Hell
    Fer tossin’ my Ma down the well.
    Pope Francis an’ Nietzsche
    Brung me plan suits me peachy:
    ‘Disappear’ when I toss Lizabel.”

  7. This atheist pope is a disaster. We’d need a Pope speaking out against the Islamization of Europe, instead we got a wishy-washy liberal, and an atheist, to boot.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  8. Bill says:
    @Anon

    What bracingly original and convincing arguments!

    You seem almost as smart and knowledgeable as Richard Dawkins!

  9. Bill says:

    The capitulation is necessary for the Catholic Church in China to survive and prosper, argues the Vatican. But what kind of church will it become, asks retired Archbishop Joseph Zen Ze-kiun of Hong Kong.

    Who would you rather have governing the Church in China: Jorge Bergoglio or Xi Jinping?

  10. Any institution that isn’t explicitly right wing will drift left. Almost all churches are no exception. A lot of us quite rightfully call out the Jew for their oversized role in all this mess but we can’t let Christianity off the hook. It has been a very willing handmaiden. Scratch the quasi mystical surface of his position and you’ll see that the current pope is just another boomer SJW.

    Christianity is a weak, feminine religion and the Catholic Church is just catching up to the Anglicans. Expect to see the rainbow flag flying in front of your local archdiocese within two years.

    In my darker moments I think that just maybe (if there is a God) His plan is for us to see that (Shi’a or Sufi) Islam is the true path to God.

  11. anonymous[412] • Disclaimer says:

    Hey Pat, should religious dogma be carved in stone forever? Christianity would never have evolved without overthrowing some of the earler dogma.

    As for the issues of atonement and hell, it sounds like the Pope has been reading the Urantia Book:

    188:4.8 (2017.3) When once you grasp the idea of God as a true and loving Father, the only concept which Jesus ever taught, you must forthwith, in all consistency, utterly abandon all those primitive notions about God as an offended monarch, a stern and all-powerful ruler whose chief delight is to detect his subjects in wrongdoing and to see that they are adequately punished, unless some being almost equal to himself should volunteer to suffer for them, to die as a substitute and in their stead. The whole idea of ransom and atonement is incompatible with the concept of God as it was taught and exemplified by Jesus of Nazareth. The infinite love of God is not secondary to anything in the divine nature.

    188:4.9 (2017.4) All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one’s fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer’s chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one’s fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

    188:4.10 (2017.5) Neither do genuine believers trouble themselves so much about the future punishment of sin. The real believer is only concerned about present separation from God. True, wise fathers may chasten their sons, but they do all this in love and for corrective purposes. They do not punish in anger, neither do they chastise in retribution.

    188:4.11 (2017.6) Even if God were the stern and legal monarch of a universe in which justice ruled supreme, he certainly would not be satisfied with the childish scheme of substituting an innocent sufferer for a guilty offender.

    2:3.2 (36.7) How futile to make puerile appeals to such a God to modify his changeless decrees so that we can avoid the just consequences of the operation of his wise natural laws and righteous spiritual mandates! “Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap.” True, even in the justice of reaping the harvest of wrongdoing, this divine justice is always tempered with mercy. Infinite wisdom is the eternal arbiter which determines the proportions of justice and mercy which shall be meted out in any given circumstance. The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity. The factual disappearance of such a creature is, however, always delayed until the ordained order of justice current in that universe has been fully complied with.

    2:3.3 (37.1) Cessation of existence is usually decreed at the dispensational or epochal adjudication of the realm or realms. On a world such as Urantia it comes at the end of a planetary dispensation. Cessation of existence can be decreed at such times by co-ordinate action of all tribunals of jurisdiction, extending from the planetary council up through the courts of the Creator Son to the judgment tribunals of the Ancients of Days. The mandate of dissolution originates in the higher courts of the superuniverse following an unbroken confirmation of the indictment originating on the sphere of the wrongdoer’s residence; and then, when sentence of extinction has been confirmed on high, the execution is by the direct act of those judges residential on, and operating from, the headquarters of the superuniverse.

    2:3.4 (37.2) When this sentence is finally confirmed, the sin-identified being instantly becomes as though he had not been. There is no resurrection from such a fate; it is everlasting and eternal. The living energy factors of identity are resolved by the transformations of time and the metamorphoses of space into the cosmic potentials whence they once emerged. As for the personality of the iniquitous one, it is deprived of a continuing life vehicle by the creature’s failure to make those choices and final decisions which would have assured eternal life. When the continued embrace of sin by the associated mind culminates in complete self-identification with iniquity, then upon the cessation of life, upon cosmic dissolution, such an isolated personality is absorbed into the oversoul of creation, becoming a part of the evolving experience of the Supreme Being. Never again does it appear as a personality; its identity becomes as though it had never been. In the case of an Adjuster-indwelt personality, the experiential spirit values survive in the reality of the continuing Adjuster.

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  12. Pope Tetzel’s defying the scoffers:
    For the Foreskin of Christ, he’d take offers.
    The name of Rome’s game
    Is forever the same:
    Fill the pews, fill their bellies and coffers.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  13. ken says:

    Meh. We’ve survived worse than him.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  14. @Bill

    Now that’s a good question. By being a traitor, Bergoglio diminishes his own authority. So at least there’s something good in it.

  15. KenH says:

    There’s more important questions like “Is Donald J. Trump a total sellout, phony and fraud?” And where do we go from here now that he seemingly is?

    I will say that to anyone concerned about saving the white race and Western civilization you shouldn’t look to Christianity and Catholicism as the cultural Marxist takeover of both institutions is far advanced if not complete. The latter still seems to be struggling with homosexuals and pederasts throughout its hierarchy. Regardless, it’s incapable and unwilling to wield the sword in defense of the West.

    Both generally welcome the browning of America and the Islamic takeover of Europe and neither generally recognize whites or their right to survive in a hostile world. Evangelical Christianity is nothing more than a Jew and Israel worshipping cult but this afflicts other denominations as well.

  16. @Johnny Smoggins

    From The Dubious Gospel of Johnny
    As Transcribed from the Old Hindustani:
    “My Doctrine consists
    In that, if God exists,
    He’s a (Shi’a or Sufi) Islami.”

  17. Jamie_NYC says:

    Hey, Pat, the line from the Great Inquisitor comes to mind: the secret of the Catholic church is that they are not with Jesus, but with the other guy.

    And, from, I think, Leszek Kolakowski: the greatest success the devil achived was convincing people he doesn’t exist.

  18. @Alan Newton

    The OT most certainly speaks of God’s eternal wrath and judgement.

    BTW… Matt, Mark, Luke and John weren’t “Catholics” when they gave a more revealing revelation of Hell.

    As Christians we are aware of Satan’s greatest deception:

    That he doesn’t exist.

    Happy Resurrection Sunday!

    • Replies: @Talha
  19. @reiner Tor

    I’m unconvinced he’s an atheist. Right-wingers often claim that Christians who promote mass immigration, especially of Muslims, are just selling out to secular leftism and can’t genuinely believe in God, but I don’t think that’s true.
    As for hell, I suppose the pope realizes on some level that the traditional Catholic teaching on it isn’t attractive to most people nowadays if they think too deeply about it. After all, according to the traditional logic you don’t just go there if you sin against your fellow man. You go there in any case if you don’t belong to the Catholic church and believe in Christ (or maybe even just if you don’t follow the church’s rules…my late mother was told as a child in the 1950s that people who didn’t go to church regularly, would go to hell…). Whereas even people who have committed the most horrible crimes could be saved through repentance and belief in Christ (e.g. Rudolf Höß). That clashes with fundamental notions of justice for many people.
    Obviously it’s a grave problem for an institution like the Catholic church though if they just turn around and say “Hey, we may have been kind of wrong for the last 2000 years on that issue!”, it just reeks of opportunism.

  20. @German_reader

    Well, he’s definitely not a Catholic, at least not according to the traditional definition. You cannot just dismantle dogma and still claim to believe in the same stuff. How much do you believe in the rest of the story if you are so easily willing to throw out such important parts of the religion?

    Maybe he’s not an atheist. But I doubt he’s much of a Catholic – obviously doesn’t believe in hell, and a very large portion of the teaching, like I don’t think he believes that marriage should be between a man and a woman, or that divorce should not be granted by lay authorities (it can already be obtained from the Church, it’s not nearly as difficult as centuries ago), etc.

    I went one step further and doubted if he had any religious faith at all, except post-Christianity, the same the rest of the SJWs have.

  21. Issac says:
    @Johnny Smoggins

    Taken together those comprise less than 10% of the world’s muslim population and their birth rates are low relative to Sunni. If the Christian religion is displaced by Islam it will be of the latter variety.

    • Replies: @Talha
  22. @German_reader

    I would accept an atheist shitlord as Pope (I’m not quite religious myself), but if that’s impossible, then the next best thing would be a Catholic opponent of Islamization. Or at least have a traditional catholic, who would at least get into conflict with the liberals on dogmatic issues like gay marriage or something similar.

    Bergoglio is the worst possible pope from my perspective, he actively supports Islamization while being unopposed to the other aspects of the liberal program.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  23. @reiner Tor

    Bergoglio is the worst possible pope from my perspective, he actively supports Islamization while being unopposed to the other aspects of the liberal program.

    I completely agree, the worst of all worlds. The Catholic church in large parts of Western Europe is in de facto alliance with the most radical leftist forces (in Germany they’re even supporting Antifa sometimes).
    But as non-believers (I assume you aren’t one either) there’s not much we can do about it.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Johnny Smoggins
  24. Talha says:
    @Issac

    I don’t know why people have this notion that Sufis are not Sunnis (or plain ordinary Muslims) – there are plenty of Sufis that are Orthodox Sunnis – I am one, practically everyone I know is one. My Dad was just a regular guy in Pakistan and he had a Sufi teacher.

    This article is a good start:
    “Given the difficulty of defining Sufism, it is not easy to discern which Muslims have been Ṣūfīs. Being a Ṣūfī has nothing to do with the Sunnī-Shīʿī split, nor with the schools of jurisprudence. It has no special connection with geography, though it has played a greater role in some locations than in others. There is no necessary correlation with family, and it is common to find individuals who profess a Ṣūfī affiliation despite the hostility of family members, or people who have been born into a family of Ṣūfīs and consider it an unacceptable form of Islam. Men and, less commonly, women, become Ṣūfīs; even children participate in Ṣūfī ritual activities, though they are seldom initiated formally before puberty. Sufism has nothing to do with social class, though some Ṣūfī organizations may be more or less class-specific. It is closely associated with popular religion, but it has also produced the most elite expressions of Islamic teachings. It is often seen as opposed to the state-supported jurists, yet jurists have always been counted among its devotees, and Sufism has frequently been supported by the state along with jurisprudence…”
    “One of the greatest Ṣūfī teachers, al-Ghazālī (d. 1111), summarizes Sufism’s role in the title of his magnum opus: Iḥyāʿ ʿulūm al-dīn (giving life to the sciences of the religion).”

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0759

    Imam al-Ghazali (ra) (and men like Ibn Ata-Illah [ra], Shah Wali-ullah [ra], etc.) is about as Orthodox as you get – he is called the “Proof of Islam”.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  25. What did Christ die on the cross to save us from?

    In Christian thinking the death on the cross indicates that there is no higher virtue than self sacrifice for one’s fellow humans.

    Another line of thinking sees the eating of communion bread (representing the body) and wine (representing blood) as a ceremonial way of sharing in the memory of the ultimate sacrifice and thus cleansing the soul. Of course, the fact that bread and wine are Mediterranean area agriculture products and that wine makes people feel good is not irrelevant to worshiping a God whose is praised when those products produce abundant harvests.

    The facts that Thank God It’s Friday is the name of a chain of US restaurants shows how Christianity inserts itself into US culture by a process of syncretism.

    Happy Easter, everyone.

  26. Talha says:
    @Stonehands

    Satan’s greatest deception: That he doesn’t exist.

    Bingo ! And he’s laughing all the way to the bank to cash that blank check. Welcome to the verge…

    Peace.

  27. Is not the judging of right and wrong part of the job description?

    There is an appeals process which is not final until The Last Judgment.

    On the third day he rose again;
    He ascended into heaven,
    And sitteth at the right hand of the Father,
    And he shall come again with glory to judge both the quick and the dead.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  28. anarchyst says:
    @Dan Hayes

    The concept that “bad” souls are simply extinguished comes right out of judaism, which is one of the jews’ core beliefs.
    This “pope” seems to be more jew than anything else.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  29. anarchyst says:
    @Diversity Heretic

    Please look up SSPX (Society of St. Pius X). You will be pleasantly surprised, as this Catholic sect follows pre-Vatican II doctrine.

  30. Rurik says:

    isn’t the ninth circle of Dante’s Hell reserved for those who betray?

    and wasn’t Judas the ultimate betrayer, because he betrayed Christ Himself?

    when you consider that the pope is the spiritual leader of much of Christendom, and that other than advocating for mainstreaming sodomy, the current pope’s obsession is the destruction of Christendom, isn’t this POS the ultimate betrayer?

    Doesn’t he belong sitting next to Judas in the depths?

    I’m waiting for this pope to announce that man/boy sex isn’t a sin.

    He’s betrayed God, he’s betrayed Christendom and its people, he’s betrayed all those raped little boys and their families, he’s betrayed the Catholic Church and its people, and now he’s praying to Satan that there isn’t really a hell, because if there is…

  31. The Scalpel says: • Website

    Not to put too fine a point on it, but who cares? Let me let you in on a little secret Rainman, it is all mythology. How many angels can fit on the head of a pin?

    Trying to discern morality from mythology is like trying to get milk from silicone breasts. Morality derives from one’s conscience and one’s “personal relationship with God”. Picking a religion and an interpreter of said religion is basically a game of “who you gonna believe”. Pick your dictator. They are all human and failable. Their philosophy and writing is human and failable.

    • Replies: @Dube
  32. Scalfari admitted he does not take notes or record interviews. He uses his memory and puts things in his own words.

    In other words, he makes up quotes.

    The non-existence of Hell would be rather surprising information to people who regularly say, “He descended into Hell; on the third day, He rose again from the dead.”

  33. @anarchyst

    Then why did Jesus talk about the rich man begging Lazarus to ease his torments by bringing him water? Obviously, some sects believed in the concept of an afterlife, including a punitive one for those who deserved it, although the Sadducees didn’t believe in it.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  34. @ken

    Borgia Popes broke the rules, but they didn’t try to CHANGE the rules.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes, dfordoom
  35. @Eustace Tilley (not)

    Catherine of Siena got the foreskin. It was her betrothal ring.

  36. @Anon

    Killing himself meant he refused to humble himself before God and beg forgiveness. It was a form of Spiritual Pride. Presumption of God’s Mercy can mean that you sin, assuming God has to forgive you, but it can also mean that you assume He cannot forgive you and are too proud to ask.

  37. Brabantian says: • Website

    The idea of an ‘eternal hell’ torture chamber is a particularly disgusting idea only found in the Jewish-based ‘Abrahamic’ religions

    From an Asian spiritual point of view, it is an absolutely shocking barbarism … along with other shocking barbarisms of the Abrahamic ‘desert bloc’ religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam

    Such as the ‘God-ordered’ mutilation of the genitals of baby boy children ‘circumcision’ – how sick and psychopathic can a religion get? – ‘God-ordered’ genocides of all men, women and children and even animals of opposing tribes – ‘God-ordered’ slavery – ‘God-ordered’ sacrifices of animals – ‘God-ordered’ ‘my way is the only way’ religious fanaticism, destroying other cultures

    The ‘God’ of the Bible, Talmud and Qur’an seems a satanic demon posing as ‘God’ … As Alexandrian physician and religious scholar Dr Ashraf Ezzat has suggested, the Abrahamic religions are all creations of the essentially similar desert tribals of the Levant and Arabia, people who aggressive, extremist and not of high culture … who sadly have infected half the world with their cruel notions

    In the Asian spiritual world – and one of the beauties of the reincarnation idea – is the notion that we all make it back to full union with divinity in the end, although some of us, the more ‘evil’ amongst us, have a longer road

    If you read the Bhagavad-Gita or the Dao De Ching, it is amazing how much less barbaric they are than the Talmud, Bible, or Qur’an … Here, Hinduism’s most beloved work, the Bhagavad-Gita, its story told in a fine 10-minute video drama … God explains to a warrior (an alt-right type?) what life is all about … It is an illusion that you can either truly kill, or be killed … so fear not

  38. @anarchyst

    I attended a service of that church in Toulouse. The church was full, although it was a small one right on the edge of a Muslim area of the city. But Catholic Churches of the SSPX are few and far between in the United States.

    The Orthodox Church is an alternative, but I find the rituals confusing and hard to follow.

    The Protestant church, in which I was raised, is basically hopeless. The mainstream denominations are, if anything, worse than the Roman Catholics under the present Pope, the evangelical sects are theology-lite, and they all tend to identify American interests as the same as Israels. Some of the members of the church in which I was raised were so Zionest they made Menachem Begin look like a moderate.

  39. Lin says:

    As a protestant Christian of alternative conviction(I stopped going to church many years ago), I would say Pat Buchanan is peddling a version of fundamentalism even the more enlightened evangelists would called narrow and ignorant:
    —The notion of hell came from ancient myths related to volcanic activities and burning of underground coal seams which could last for centuries. Where is heaven BTW? Somewhere up in the sky might be? Why not leave the matter to physicists ?
    Many evangelists nowadays would tell their flock that a man/woman who has peace with God, peace with fellow men, forgiveness, happiness, good sense of charity is already in heaven (on Earth). A man who is devoid of such attributes is literally in Hell because God disown him/her.
    ………….
    Many of what Pat Buchanan considers ‘Christians’ actually are worshippers of Gog or Mammon.
    …………..
    Most of those Chinese ‘underground Christians’ are actually pawns of Gog inspired CIA/’NGOs’. Many of them are charlatan perform phoney healing the sick
    …………
    All numbers are finite, but infinity is the core of mathematical analysis. The Universe is infinite, humans are just insignificant entities. So there MUST be a GOD. All attempt to present GOD in human terms border on blasphemy.
    GOD is omnipotent and has no need for a SON as in human condition(I decline the notion Jesus was an E.T. alien-human hybrid). JESUS as the SON of GOD is a metaphor as we prostrate in front of the greatest moral teacher that ever walked on Earth.

  40. anarchyst says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Jesus was part of the Essene sect, which espoused many Christian-like principles, unlike the Pharisees, who were stuck on their Talmud.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  41. Patrick Buchanan: the last goddamned place where I wanna see pronouncements of twisted, ass-backwards theology is on Unz, written by a doddering old fool who regards himself as sitting on the right hand of God.

    Pathetic. Sickening. Puerile. Whiny. Disgusting.

  42. @Bill

    Who would you rather have governing the Church in China: Jorge Bergoglio or Xi Jinping?

    The difficulties of the Roman Catholic Church in China have many historical parallels. There was always conflict between the Church’s assertion of its independence and the claims of the secular power. Thomas à Becket was murdered as a result of his resistance to the Constitutions of Clarendon, by which Henry II gave common-law courts original jurisdiction over the acts of “criminous clerks.” Henry’s son John later came into conflict with the Church over his preferred candidate for the archbishopric of Canterbury, and ended up being excommunicated. The mediaeval conflict between Guelph and Ghibelline arose between supporters of the papacy and those of the Holy Roman Empire.

    The Church resolved such disagreements in other cases by means of concordats. A typical subject of concordats dealt with the right of presentation to bishoprics. Thus, for example, the Concordat of Bologna of 1516 gave the kings of France the right to choose archbishops, bishops, abbots, and priors within his kingdom. A similar concordat was made between Francoist Spain and the Church as recently as 1953.

    Normally the Church made such concordats with powers that were at least nominally Catholic, in the case of France leading to the development of Gallicanism. A theory called Febronianism developed in Germany that went beyond Gallicanism and challenged the monarchical nature of the papacy. Yet this, too, was a phenomenon internal to Catholicism.

    The distinction in the case of China is that the right of presentation to bishoprics is apparently going to be vested in a government that is not only not Catholic, but not even Christian. I cannot see this ending well for the Church.

    And what should we call this government-controlled church? May I suggest “Garrican” or “Feblonian”?

    • Replies: @Bill
  43. @German_reader

    I’m curious what the left has in its long term plans for all the Moslems they’re importing. In the short term it’s to get votes for left leaning parties, we all know that. But longer term, they must know that Islam is incompatible with its (current) core beliefs – feminism, pro homosexual, anti family, anti male, pro god knows what sexual activity will become the next big thing for them. As well, the left tolerates no ideological competition so do they think they will ultimately tame and then conquer Islam as they tried in the Central Asian republics of the Soviet Union?

    A fight to the death no doubt – mullahs vs. lesbians who identify as small furry animals. I hope I’m around to see it.

  44. Pope Che is a Jesuit and a follower of Liberation Theology ( the non-atheistic branch of Marxism) and a firm promoter of Vatican II. Why would anyone be surprized by his “opinions” ?

  45. @Johnny Smoggins

    But longer term, they must know that Islam is incompatible with its (current) core beliefs

    No, they don’t know that, because they’re stupid and uninformed. They don’t take Islam seriously, all that matters for them is their fantasy in which they’re valiant fighters against “Nazis”, “fascists” and “racists”.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  46. Vinteuil says:

    Who still believes in Hell?

    I mean, seriously. Eternal torment, ordained by God, for failing to live up to moral standards that nobody knew about ahead of time?

    It’s absurd.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  47. Jake says:

    Pope Francis is a Peronist, so he is going to be an erratic Leftist with no fiscal sense and no ability to grasp the possibility that any of his notions could turn out badly.

    He has most faith in his own good intentions, and he will not see that they lead to Hell until he enters.

  48. @Johnny Smoggins

    Look what has happened in the UK. That is what the Lefties brought upon themselves, and also upon their unfortunate countrymen–and upon their still more unfortunate countrywomen–and upon their most unfortunate country’s children.

  49. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    there are plenty of Sufis that are Orthodox Sunnis – I am one, practically everyone I know is one.

    You are a fake Sufi.

    True Sufis strive to realize their Oneness in God. You on the other hand, like all Orthodox Muslims, boast that you and your ilk will be fornicating forever with six dozen virgins as promised by the Prophet of Islam.

    To the True Believers in the Islam of Mohammad Sufism is a heresy, a forbidden innovation. So no sexual intercourse with the houris of heaven for sufis, instead the Just and Merciful Allah will torture them for all eternity in the pit of Hell.

    Meanwhile in this life:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Sehwan_suicide_bombing

    On 16 February 2017, a suicide bombing took place inside the Shrine of Lal Shahbaz Qalandar in Sehwan, Sindh, Pakistan, where pilgrims were performing a Sufi ritual after the evening prayers.[2][10][11] At least 90 people were killed and over 300 injured……The suicide bomber struck the pilgrims during a dhamaal (ritual dance) after the evening prayers.[2] The perpetrator blew himself up inside the shrine hall under the dome, near its Golden Gate……The bomber, believed to be an Afghan national, had bypassed the security check at the shrine.[19]……At least 21 children were believed to be among the dead.

    http://www.scmp.com/news/world/africa/article/2121585/extremists-attacked-mosque-egypt-because-they-believe-sufi-muslim

    On Friday, at least 305 Egyptians were killed by terrorists who detonated a bomb in a crowded mosque, then sprayed frantic worshippers with gunfire as they fled……..to understand why this mosque was targeted, it’s important to understand how Sunni extremists see Sufism…..More and more, extremists are willing to target Sufi mosques……Though they shun politics and worldly matters, Sufis are constantly under attack by the ultra-conservative Salafis who consider them heretics and condemn their “innovations” or rituals.

    • Replies: @Talha
  50. Begemot says:
    @Anon

    Without Judas maybe it would have been done by ‘Immaculate Crucifixion’?

    I agree with your point. Judas was an instrument of God’s will to achieve a Divine goal. To condemn him is most unjust. So far none of your respondents have bothered to address your point. Which is not at all surprising.

    • Replies: @The Scalpel
    , @bjondo
  51. H. S. says:

    The Pope denounced the NATO, i.e. the merchants of death. The BEAST.

    Pope Francis: ‘Arms manufacturers are merchants of death’

    The Pope also denounces those responsible for human trafficking and slave labour.

    ”The Pope told the crowds gathered in St Peter’s Square that people producing weapons of war are “merchants of death”.

    “One day everything comes to an end and they will be held accountable to God,” he said.”

    http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/news/2014/06/11/pope-francis-arms-manufacturers-are-merchants-of-death/

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  52. Bliss says:

    Pat Buchanan:

    If there is no hell…….What did Christ die on the cross to save us from?

    Amazing how adamantly some seemingly intelligent humans cling to dogmas that to free thinkers are so obviously immoral, irrational and unjust.

    Hey Pat:

    1. How the hell does the blood of an innocent scapegoat atone for your sins? That primitive Stone Age superstition actually makes sense to you?

    2. How the hell can an Omnipotent and Omniscient God get frustrated and angry? You can’t see the illogic in that?

    3. How the hell did you manage to convince yourself that not belonging to the cult you were born into is a sin that deserves eternal torture in Hell? You can’t see the insane injustice and cruel immorality in that dogma?

    If Jesus was a blood sacrifice to appease an angry God and save you from eternal Hell then why did he preach at all? What was the point? Either Jesus was a Teacher or he was an atoning sacrifice. He couldn’t be both.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  53. Dube says:
    @The Scalpel

    DANCE on the head of a pin. An infinite number of non-extended beings can FIT on the head of a pin, but DANCE?

    Not the swing!

  54. Dube says:

    It seems that this pontiff is a Luciferian. The video is currently blocked that presents his personal…chaplain? I missed the designation…chanting in a public ceremony, in the presence of this pontiff, that Jesus is the son of Loo-chee-fer. This chant is repeated, in Latin, unambiguously.

    So why not add that souls simply dissolve?

  55. @anarchyst

    2 Maccabees 7 contains many references to resurrection, in the speeches of the mother and seven sons who choose death rather than engaging in pagan rituals. 2 Maccabees 12 encourages praying for the dead (why bother, if they’re just going to stay dead?). I’m not sure if the punishments predicted for Antiochus involve earthly sufferings, eternal hellfire, or both, but it’s very clear that they believed all would be held to account for their actions. So the Pharisees may have believed in heaven but no hell, the Sadducees may have believed in neither, but there is significant evidence that many people in the OT believed in some form of reward or punishment after death.

    And of course, there’s Ezekiel and the Dry Bones.

  56. @Bliss

    Either Jesus was a Teacher or he was an atoning sacrifice. He couldn’t be both.

    Why not? He’s a pretty talented guy.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  57. nsa says:
    @Alan Newton

    Fellow dog lover: take note that RC doctrine declares that St. Pat can easily slide into “heaven” even though he promoted the murder of 4.5 million Vietnamese by simply “repenting”…..whereas the very same RC doctrine has declared that your beloved canine pal lacks a soul and can never enter. Who is stupid enough to buy into this goofy stuff from a vile pedophile cult?

  58. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    You are a fake Sufi.

    Says an anonymous guy on the internet that couldn’t read his own name in Arabic or Farsi to save his own life.

    “Thanks for your opinion”, say I.

    As I pointed out in my source, “Sufi” is a fairly malleable term so if your definition of it is that only non-Muslims or heretics can be Sufis, well good for you I say! It’s the 21st century; people are declaring their own gender – who am I to get in your way – you be you. Remember, “Sufi” is a social construct!

    Sufis are constantly under attack by the ultra-conservative Salafis

    Yup, pretty much.

    Aaaand from your own source:
    “Sufi believers can be Sunni or Shiite, though the majority are Sunni. They see Sufism less as a sect than as a way of being, a set of beliefs and practices that lead followers closer to God.”

    Thanks for the reference!

    • Replies: @Bliss
  59. @anarchyst

    The SSPX has a huge mission in Africa. If you accept black/Asian priests-popes, you’re the problem.

    • Replies: @anarchyst
  60. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says:

    There is a division inside Catholicism that is widening, between a Third World and traditional church that are growing, and a mainstream Church in Europe and here that is taking on aspects of the Anglican Church of the 20th century.

    Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.

    It’s either traditionalism via Africanization or degeneration via quasi-secularization.

    But the, even the inclusion that led to third worldization is the product of white deracination.

    Btw, go with the Communist Party church in China. It is less likely to celebrate homomania

    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
  61. “There is a division inside Catholicism that is widening, between a Third World and traditional church that are growing, and a mainstream Church in Europe and here that is taking on aspects of the Anglican Church of the 20th century.” Here is the problem. The Roman Catholic Church must only be for Caucasians/Europeans. Blacks/Asians must have their own churches, priests, popes. IQ also determines how good a Christian a person will be. Asians/blacks are second and third and cannot keep up with Caucasian Christians.

    Cuck pope Frannie stating that he does not believe in hell, shows his own evil. This cuck is possessed by a demon. For Holy Thursday services, he kissed the feet of Muslims. http://leozagami.com/2018/03/30/the-fall-of-the-vatican/ He will not issue a statement that Islam is a Christian heresy and present day Jews are not the chosen or in a covenant with God.

    He decries our fractured world. https://www.yahoo.com/news/pope-ashamed-young-inherit-fractured-world-214526551.html Yet, he either does not or refuses to understand that the world is fractured from original sin or what I state is IQ.

    Pat is a cuck RCCer who is beginning to see the truth about the pope. However, he will not accept what needs to be done.

  62. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    I’m unconvinced he’s an atheist. Right-wingers often claim that Christians who promote mass immigration, especially of Muslims, are just selling out to secular leftism and can’t genuinely believe in God, but I don’t think that’s true.

    That’s the worrying thing. Secular leftism is bad but squishy woolly-minded believing Christians who think every problem can be solved by group hugs and emotional gushing are arguably even worse.

  63. dfordoom says: • Website
    @German_reader

    No, they don’t know that, because they’re stupid and uninformed. They don’t take Islam seriously, all that matters for them is their fantasy in which they’re valiant fighters against “Nazis”, “fascists” and “racists”.

    Yep.

    • Replies: @Talha
  64. The Scalpel says: • Website
    @Begemot

    If one’s reasoning abilities are so poor that they literally believe that fable, they would not have the ability to reason through the situation as you have done. for them it is Judas ratted on Jesus = Judas bad.

  65. Bliss says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Why not?

    Because according to the dogma you subscribe to there was one and only one way to avoid Hell: the atoning sacrifice. The sacrifice saves you, not the sermons. So, was Jesus misleading his followers by sermonizing so much?

    Jesus as Teacher cannot be reconciled with Jesus as Sacrifice.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  66. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    so if your definition of it is that only non-Muslims or heretics can be Sufis, well good for you I say! It’s the 21st century; people are declaring their own gender

    Firstly, Sufis don’t have the liberty to declare themselves non-muslim. Because: “If someone leaves the religion, kill him” (Mohammad, the Last Prophet). The danger of being killed for heresy is bad enough.

    Secondly, the fact that you keep declaring yourself a Sufi, who follows a lineage, exposes you to the charge of heresy. For Mohammad did not teach Sufism, and he was the last messenger of Allah.

    though the majority are Sunni.

    The majority of Muslims self-identify as Sunni. The majority of persecutors and killers of sufis are also Sunni. So?

    Sunnis by definition cannot be Shi’as and vice versa. So the fact that there are sufis who are Sunni and sufis who are Shi’a shows that Sufism is fundamentally quite different from mainstream Islam.

    They see Sufism less as a sect than as a way of being, a set of beliefs and practices that lead followers closer to God.

    Right. And that clearly shows how very different they are from the true Muslims. Their beliefs and practices incite the followers of Mohammad, the Last Prophet.

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @Talha
    , @RadicalCenter
  67. Does the Pope Believe in Hell?

    Well, he believes in Communism, and I don’t see a big damn difference. So yes, he does, and do you have any more questions, Mr. Buchanan?

    “Pope” Francis is the guy that single-handedly made the joke-line “Is the Pope Catholic?” obsolete.

  68. Anon[376] • Disclaimer says:
    @Bliss

    Until Saudi oil money -funded wahhabism burst onto the scene, the vast majority of Sunnis were engaged in some form of sufism, or followed sufi-based practices (folk religion). The idea that any significant percentage of sufis regarded themselves as anything other than Muslims, is absurd. They were the “true Muslims”, until that was co-opted by fanatics from the Nejd.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @Bliss
  69. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Hey man, like I said; I totally get why I’m not classified as a Sufi by your definition. Totally get it and support it – 100%.

    I just don’t understand why I should care.

    Now if you want to take on Oxford University and their article, it’s easy; submit a paper with your credentials to speak on the subject and a line by line refutation (preferably typed, I don’t think they accept crayon) of their errors and I’m sure they’ll correct it. Then you can link to the new article and show us all what’s up.

  70. Years ago, one of my classes in college was taught by a diocesan exorcist, an elderly Hungarian priest who had many interesting stories to tell. His description of “hell” made sense to me at the time and I’ve “felt” that experience many times over the years. He said hell was the complete isolation of the soul, a cold (relating to what occurred during an exorcism when a room would invariably change temperature – the presence of evil) which accompanied that separation from all relationships. His description of Purgatory was compelling as well and connected, I suppose, with his notion of hell in that one had the ability to experience living loved ones after death, but could not interact, as though in a prison of some kind, entirely dependent on living relatives or friends to assist them out of that state. Hell was the complete absence of that possibility.

    I’ve felt many times, through my own choices, the disconnection from loved ones. Selfish decisions bring with them a kind of absence or hell on earth if you will. I think anyone with a working conscience will understand this idea. We are relational beings. We all suffer in one form or another during the life we’re given. We develop our ways of coping with various degrees of trauma experienced and the length and breadth of that is something only the bearer can comprehend. Trauma affects our relationships, causes and continues the cycle of abuse, neglect, suffering, guilt, etc., which are a part of the human condition. The Church is herself guilty of many forms of purposefully negative programming, and I’ve witnessed how children can be terrorized by the notion of evil and the horrifying consequences of eternal damnation on their lives. Perhaps it’s time to remove those individuals in power who continue to foster the suffering of others through forced economic hardships, political instability, mind control, media lies, deceptions which are dealt with here on this site on a regular basis.

    I’m of the opinion that anyone holding public office, who has authority over others and can effect policies which can create unnecessary suffering on other, be made to go through an objective psychological assessment. If the results in any way indicate an inability to empathize or lack compassion, then that should automatically deny the office.

    I’m not sure what Francis is trying to prove, but the traditional notion of hell, in my view, is antiquated for sure. There is enough suffering in this life. We don’t need to be thinking of eternal damnation as a way of ensuring people behave well.

  71. @Bliss

    Or maybe you accept His sacrifice by obeying Him. Because God wants obedience from us, not sacrifice. He’ll do the sacrificing.

  72. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    Actually, they are banking (and I mean “bank” due to funds involved) on the idea that they can change us at the fundamental level:
    “The agenda of the progressive left foundations and nonprofit groups described herein is to refashion Islam as a secular identity group centered on ethnic ‘brownness’”

    https://muslimmatters.org/2017/09/20/how-the-progressive-left-wants-to-change-islam-in-america/

    Their assumption is that what worked with other religions will work with us – guess we’ll see…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  73. Hell is other people

    [Jean-Paul Sartre]

  74. It amazes me that self-styled conservatives think that belief in the supernaturalist tapestry of God and Hell is a priori ‘conservative’. I would have thought the archetypal situation over the last 10,000 years of civilization is a tough, secular minded King or royal adviser facing off against the radical egalitarian impulses of supernaturalism and God-botherers. I mean just read the political parts of the Old Testament for illustrations (psychotic prophets giving dogmatic advice that would have destroyed the Jewish kingdoms). What could be more childishly egalitarian than Hell – where naughty Kings and peasants boil side by side for their greed?

    My guess is that the VERY odd circumstances of religion in the USA in the last 80 years or so – where religion has annexed itself to a certain kind of mainstream conservatism (small state, militarism, anti-communism) have deceived people on here as to who their allies are likely to be. The current Pope is much closer to the normal course of religious history – religion versus hierarchy (as fantasy of course).

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  75. The Pope made a technical theological point. God is both infinitely just and infinitely merciful. Infinite justice requires something like Hell; but infinite mercy opens the door for something along the lines of what the Pope described – the annihilation of ruined souls. Church doctrine is clear that the infinite justice supersedes the infinite mercy; but with qualifications, the Pope’s point is worth making.

    A few more comments regarding Hell:
    - By his very nature, God cannot torture. So Hell is something along the lines of letting sinful souls suffer the consequences of their self-destructive acts of will. By doctrine, God can and does tell you what is good for you. Buy you have the freedom to do whatever you want.
    - Christian doctrine holds that the moral law is written in the hearts of all men, including heathens and unbelievers. Under that doctrine, sinners can’t say “I didn’t know”. And God must obviously be understanding and merciful toward people who have had to make difficult moral choices.
    - One can make the argument that clinical depression offers one a glimpse into the the metaphorical, psychological, and perhaps metaphysical, reality of Hell. Dante’s Inferno is a classic for a reason.

    The Pope is also on firm ground regarding the need for charity toward the refugees. Charity is a cardinal virtue. But here as in his comment regarding Hell, the Pope may be erring by excessively favoring one virtue over another. Charity demands that Europeans treat others gently and generously. Justice demands that Europeans defend their hearths, as they have done for 2500 years.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  76. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    Their assumption is that what worked with other religions will work with us – guess we’ll see…

    What’s going to be interesting is to watch their reactions when Islam doesn’t meekly surrender the way Christianity did. There are suddenly going to be some very angry very frightened SJWs. They’re not going to react well (they never do) and they’re going to double down (they always do). But instead of surrendering they’re likely to find that Islam doubles down as well.

    • Replies: @Talha
  77. DB Cooper says:

    “If there is no hell, is not the greatest deterrent to the worst of sins removed?”

    No, not at all. Religion is one of the sources of human violence. For, if you think you are doing God’s work, anything can be justified, including the extermination of a people. Nobel laureate physicist Stephen Weinberg sums it up correctly, “Without religion good people do good things, bad people do bad things, only with religion does good people do bad things”.

  78. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    As a recent Friday sermon shows in the biggest mosque in California – calling out the dangers of feminism:

    It is interesting, but the mosque initially took down the sermon but then put it back up after it generated quite a popular buzz in the Muslim community.

    In plenty of Muslim lands, the liberalism experiment of the 60s-80s is being rolled back. The issue in those countries is actually not letting the pendulum swing too far the other way into vapid extremism. However, the big difference there are the numbers – in the West, Muslims are still a super-minority even if we are stubborn. Definitely expect the liberal left to use Modernist Muslims to combat and check traditional ones.

    Interesting times ahead for sure since there is no precedence for what we are about to see unfold.

    Peace.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
  79. Dan Hayes says:
    @DB Cooper

    DB Cooper:

    But, much more important, only with religion do bad people do good things.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    , @German_reader
  80. So. basically, the Dungeon Master has changed one of the arbitrary rules in your game.

  81. @jimbojones

    Charity demands that Europeans treat others gently and generously.

    But importing refugees is not charity, because the ones paying the price (subsequent generations, mostly; also non-Christian lower class people in the present; disproportionately the young, who get beaten up at school by the diverse, or girls getting raped, etc.) are not the same as the ones doing the “charity.” The Pope and the dogooders are doing “charity” at the expense of others. That’s actually sin, because you first steal what is not yours, and then give it away to virtue signal. Which is perhaps a combination of greed and pride. A truly Christian charity would mean he would give only what belongs to him (i.e. not the country, only money), and then not boasting of it.

    • Agree: anarchyst, Rurik
  82. @DB Cooper

    only with religion does good people do bad things

    That’s true, but only if you include any ideological conviction in the category of “religion.” And one more caveat: all people have ideological convictions. All you can do is replace one set of beliefs with another. And the change is usually much worse than intended. Secular humanism can lead to support for the Iraq War or mass immigration or similar disastrous ideas. Religion has stood the test of time, at least under premodern conditions it can be a successful organizing force in society.

  83. @Dan Hayes

    Good and bad can also be a bit ambiguous. Is having a drink with friends bad or good? Going on a vacation? These may be morally neutral things, or even good. (Like having a drink with a friend who just lost his job, etc.) But choosing a life of endless nights out and vacations with no children? Morally, it might be neutral. Certainly not monstrous. However, in an increasingly irreligious society an increasingly large portion of the population will choose this lifestyle. People will care less and less about their collective future. Over time, this will lead to a societal collapse.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  84. anarchyst says:
    @attilathehen

    One can accept Catholicism while insisting on separation of the races. The two are not morally exclusive.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  85. @reiner Tor

    People will care less and less about their collective future. Over time, this will lead to a societal collapse.

    The problem I always have with such a view of religion is that it a) completely ignores the question of religious truth and merely regards religion as something to buttress group identity (which I find intellectually dishonest…unless one is willing to explain what “Christ died for our sins” is supposed to mean, one should shut up about the merits of Christianity; Christianity is supposed to be about beliefs, it’s not just a set of rituals connected to national culture like Shinto or something of the sort) b) it also completely ignores what Christianity stands for in many Western countries today. All the Christian politicians, bishops, priests and prominent Christian laymen who are fervent advocates of open borders and even explicitly welcome mass immigration of Muslims (!) certainly don’t care about the collective interests of Europeans, and probably not even that much about those of Christians, given their weak response to the persecution of Oriental Christians. They regard such sentiments as deeply sinful and say it’s one’s duty as a Christian to overcome such sentiments and adopt a stance of universal love, even when it’s obviously detrimental to our own interests (and what does this world matter anyway, when our eternal souls are at stake?). And that’s not something I can regard as a reasonable position…nor a moral one, since imo it’s basically a cult of extended suicide, dragging down entire societies into the abyss, including all those who, like me, don’t subscribe to this warped suicidal morality.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  86. @Dan Hayes

    That would have to be at least heavily qualified. Some religions at least (Islam most notably today) in many cases seem to rather encourage bad people to do extremely bad things.

    • Replies: @Talha
  87. @reiner Tor

    I tend to agree, but the pope, most bishops (of all denominations) in Western Europe and many prominent Christian laymen disagree vehemently. Who are we, as non-believers or cultural Christians at best, to tell them what the faith they’re supposedly representing is about?

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  88. Amazing grace! How sweet the sound
    Of Peter’s Bark run hard aground;
    Upon this Rock
    To dash his flock:
    Pope Sans-a-frock with coxcomb crowned.

  89. Talha says:
    @German_reader

    Extremism is a strain that runs through human history and will also involve itself in religion. Hell, it involves itself into every aspect of human life; see extreme sports and hotdog eating contests, for instance. Think of what the Communists were willing to do for their ultimate vision. That will never be completely expunged from religion any more than from humanity itself because religion itself cannot be divorced from where it takes root – the human heart (which is what you pointed out regarding belief and cognitive dissonance).

    The better question is; in the summation of all things, is religion mostly a positive or a negative force? One can make a similar case with something like the institution of marriage; sure it can be an abusive and manipulative thing but also something beautiful – and the same marriage can go through various stages. This is a subjective analysis after all and some will insist on throwing out the baby with the bath water.

    Peace.

  90. @anarchyst

    There is only one pope. Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

  91. Rurik says:

    There is only one pope. Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    I would, if they were honest men with Christ-like souls and respect for human dignity

    whereas this poop the Catholics are stuck with now, is an embarrassment and mockery of Christianity and Catholicism and common sense and truth and justice.

    I asked an Irish guy i know what he thinks of him, and he told me point blank, as only an Irishman could; ‘he’s a fag’.

    Yep, that about covers it. ;)

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  92. @German_reader

    I don’t know about Germany, but in Hungary I have heard atheists criticizing the (at least nominally Christian) opponents of immigration as being “un-Christian.” If they don’t restrict themselves in their arguments for immigration, why should we?

    Moreover, I think the argument makes enormous sense. Charity (secular or Christian) cannot be practiced at the expense of others. That’s not charity. The immorality of that must be pointed out.

    I also think that there could be something objective in Christianity. Or any other religion. If someone created the Free Love Mosque where congregants were required to enter naked and engage in sex with each other, while smoking hash, then perhaps I could be forgiven for pointing out that they are not Muslims by any stretch of the word. Despite not being Muslim myself. Similarly, I can point out that Merkel’s actions are not exactly Christian. Because, objectively speaking, they aren’t.

    But to repeat, the most important thing is that we need to convince Christians, and the atheists among our opponents won’t restrict themselves to not using religious arguments whenever it fits them. Why should we?

    • Replies: @German_reader
  93. @German_reader

    One problem is that they are already not very religious. A pro LGBTQWERTY pope (I guess those German bishops are similar) must not be very religious. Or rather, his (their) religion is something else, not Catholicism. If they were pro African immigration but anti LGBTQWERTY, then I would maybe accept that they were religious (albeit misguided). SSPX might be something like this. Mind you, they are for example strongly anti-Jewish, so no holocaust worship. I’m also wondering if they’d be open to arguments against immigration (like the one used in Norway about the cost of accepting N immigrants being ten times higher than giving foreign aid and helping ten times as many Africans in Africa; or the argument above about fake charity at others’ expense).

    Anyway, I’m not saying religions cannot be bad, just that “secular humanism” so far has always been bad. Whereas some religions are good, at least some of the time.

    • Replies: @German_reader
  94. @reiner Tor

    I don’t know about Germany, but in Hungary I have heard atheists criticizing the (at least nominally Christian) opponents of immigration as being “un-Christian.”

    Oh, of course that exists, it’s very noticeable how even hardcore leftists (e.g. people who are basically commies and constantly going on how great it was in East Germany) discover “Christian values” and try to shame opponents of mass immigration by reference to them. Of course they’re very selective with that though…would never happen regarding issues like abortion or homosexuality.

    Similarly, I can point out that Merkel’s actions are not exactly Christian. Because, objectively speaking, they aren’t.

    Many, many Christians would disagree with that, and I’m not sure they’re wrong. We have to remember that Christianity for most of its history has been not least about forcing people into certain behaviours deemed moral, through close association with state authorities. It’s not that big a leap to suggest that the same should now happen regarding the fight against “racism” (it becomes quite obvious at times…there was an incident that gained some media attention in 2015 or 2016 when a minor Christian Democrat politician basically told critics of the asylum system “If you don’t accept that our society is run according to Christian values, you’re free to leave Germany”…that’s why reference to “Judeo-Christian values” or something of the sort is a double-edged sword at best for people like us).
    One of the core problems for me is that Christian morality at its origins was that of a marginal sect, expecting the end of the world it believed to be near, and very far removed from any political power. Now there may be a lot to admire about such ethics, but if you apply them naively to the running of a modern nation state, the results are likely to be disastrous, and unfortunately naive literalists seem to have become dominant in Western churches nowadays.

    But to repeat, the most important thing is that we need to convince Christians

    True, but I’m unsure about how best to do this (your charity argument is quite good though…but it won’t work on the more authoritarian kind of left Christian who’s into demonizing “racists” as Satanic). The only thing I can think of as a recommendation is that nationalists should avoid indulging explicitly anti-Christian atheist or neopagan ideas, even if the temptation to do so is obvious. But at least in northwestern Europe (certainly in Germany) some level of confrontation with the establishment churches is unavoidable.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  95. @reiner Tor

    Anyway, I’m not saying religions cannot be bad, just that “secular humanism” so far has always been bad.

    I’m not even sure what “secular humanism” is supposed to mean…people who use terms like Humanismus in Germany – unless in a historical sense, when applied to Erasmus of Rotterdam and the like – are usually GDR-style commies. Obviously that’s not something I endorse. If anything, I criticize Christianity from the right, because at least in its current form it opens the way to evildoers and has arguably harmful political consequences for the ability of a society to defend itself.

  96. @Rurik

    You would accept a black/Asian pope. You are a degenerate. The idea that we could not find a Caucasian male with a Christ like soul is so incredibly stupid – I can’t even.

    You would OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. Where are you located? I live in an area “vibrating” with diversity and know that blacks/Asians cannot be a part of any of our churches in the West.

    Biology comes first, then beliefs. Christianity cannot help blacks/Asians. IQ is the starting point.

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @EliteCommInc.
  97. @reiner Tor

    Mr. Tor, you just described the problem with socialism in that short paragraph. Being a Latin American socialist, like all the liberation theology Catholics they have down there, “Pope” Francis would not understand your paragraph, even if translated into Latin for the stupid fuck.

    Peak Stupidity asks “Is this Pope on Dope?”

  98. KenH says:

    Speaking of Christianity and Christian charity I don’t know of any major Christian or Catholic organizations who are protesting the murders of white farmers in South Africa and the looming confiscation of their land by the communist ANC. These are some of the same hypocritical religious organizations who lead the charge against white ruled apartheid S. Africa in the 1970′s and 80′s.

    The irony about Catholic Charities is that their charity seems only to extend to anyone who’s not white or Catholic. They seem to specialize in resettling unassimilable black Africans and Muslims into the U.S. but not an ounce of assistance to beleaguered whites.

    Persecution usually means a one way ticket to the USA and a lifetime of welfare and government aid but only if one is of a non-white, third world demographic. Only the colors of the rainbow get privilege while whitey gets screwed over.

    • Agree: Dan Hayes
    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @Rurik
  99. @KenH

    In the US, Catholic Charities was getting most of their money from the government. They used the money to resettle Muslims and blacks all over the US. Fortunately, the Trump administration has cut back on this funding and many of their offices are closing.

    The RCC is looking to Africa to save the church. It is time to move the papacy to the Congo or the Philippines.

    • Replies: @KenH
  100. Rurik says:
    @attilathehen

    You would accept a black/Asian pope. You are a degenerate.

    attilathehen says:

    The RCC is looking to Africa to save the church. It is time to move the papacy to the Congo or the Philippines.

    degeneracy to go around, it seems

    The idea that we could not find a Caucasian male with a Christ like soul is so incredibly stupid – I can’t even.

    do you know of any?

    I sure don’t. Wish I did. I think I’d be less cynical. And Christ Himself was not a Caucasian, but was certainly a blood relative of today’s Palestinians, who’re being relentlessly and routinely scourged by today’s Pharisees and ‘crucified’ (murdered in the streets) with the direct complicity today’s white Christians.

    if you were to ask me, ‘who, in your lifetime, pops into your mind as being most Christ-like?’

    I’d think of a young woman, who like Joan of Ark, was also brutally made an example of (by corrupt men) for her devotion and her grace.. by killing her in a cruel way.

    Catholicism, by definition- is not an expression of any single nation or ethnicity. It’s an organized religion that prothlesizes for more converts, regardless of nationality or race. Indeed, many of today’s Catholic’s ancestors were converted by less consensual means.

    So, unlike the head of a state, or a tribe, like Judaism for instance, Catholicism is simply based on faith, so if they decided on a S. American as the pope, (who recognized the God-given imperative of all peoples to have borders to their lands) I see no harm, and no foul. And it’s hard to imagine that such a Pope would be worse than the lily-white minions of Satan who’ve been occupying the Vatican and facilitating boy-rape and the genocide of Europa.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  101. Rurik says:
    @KenH

    The irony about Catholic Charities is that their charity seems only to extend to anyone who’s not white or Catholic. They seem to specialize in resettling unassimilable black Africans and Muslims into the U.S. but not an ounce of assistance to beleaguered whites.

    what you say is also true of the other Christian denominations

    It’s the Lutherans in Minnesota who’re also resettling the Somalis, just as Protestants all over the nation abase themselves to all things anti-Christ Israel.

    shekels, you see

    The story of Judas is perhaps the most telling one in the bible. Because it lays out for us all to see the willingness of men (and women) to betray their very souls for earthly shekels.

    • Replies: @KenH
  102. @Rurik

    Jesus was white, a Caucasian you incredibly stupid RCC cuck. He is not related to today’s Palestinians. Before Islam took over the Middle East and North Africa the people were Caucasians. St. Augustine of Hippo is a perfect example of this phenotype. 90% of North Africans today have black ancestry because of Islamic slavery and concubinage. 75 % of Muslim Palestinians have black ancestry. Hence their low IQs. I know about the Roman Catholic religion. I’m a cradle RCCer whose family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes. Also, the communion wafer does not work for blacks/Asians. Look at RCC Haiti and El Salvador. The only reason lily white minions are getting away with the homosexuality and pedophilia in the RCC is because of cucks like you. The RCC is over. Diversity destroyed it. It is time for a new church for the West.

    • Replies: @Liberty Mike
    , @Bliss
  103. Mark Presco says: • Website

    None of you commenters seem to understand the Catholic religion. It is all about having your sins forgiven.

    I was taught in catechism that every human soul was bound straight for hell unless saved by the church. Not for anything we did, but for what Adam and Eve did: original sin, the fall of mankind.

    The sacraments of Baptism, Confirmation and the Eucharist were absolutely necessary to be forgiven Adam and Eves sins; Confession, Absolution and Last Rights to be forgiven your own. Only the church and the priests can administer them.

    This is basically a Jewish con game. A protection racket. We’ll save you from a fate worse than death. We’ll save you from our God who wants to cast you into a lake of fire and cause you to suffer the horrors of being alive, every second of your existence…. For eternity. All you gotta do is put a little money in the collection plate.

    Will simply the threat of oblivion be enough to keep the money flowing?

    • Agree: Rurik
  104. Rurik says:

    Jesus was white,

    no, Jesus was a Jew

    and there were no white European rabbis in the Levant during His sojourn on earth.

    So, as long as cucks like you continue to worship a Jew, as “God Himself”, you’re really the ultimate cuck, now aren’t you?

    except that you don’t vacate just he wombs of your women, to make room for the seed of interlopers, but you vacate the very throne of Valhalla, and cuck Them for a Jew to supersede over Them, the true Gods of the West

    supplanted and cucked by you Christians, that worship the very act of cucking = spreading the other cheek to your enemies.

    don’t talk to me of ‘cuck’, Christian, who begs forgiveness for your vile, sinful existence, and lives on your knees as if prostrate obeisance was a virtue. Ha! (pathetic)

    my religion is one of exuberant self-affirmation, with homage to my ancestors.

    not whiny cuck apologies for having an earthy flesh to apologize for every minute, and repudiate the venerable passion one has for the opposite sex. The love and lust a man has for a beautiful women, is the most sublime wonder the Gods in their benevolence bestowed upon the mortal world. And you Christians bury it in an abased and groveling tomb of guilt. Unless of course, it’s lust for little boys! then is seems there’s no perversion too egregious in the Christian pursuit of homomania and importing Somali boys. With your gay marriage, and gay cakes, and gay priests galore…

    what a joke that the likes of you would presume to call someone a cuck.

    when you’ve cucked the very Gods from their thrones, and replaced them with a Jew- (~ not even of your blood) ~ to worship in His earthly flesh. Jesus how they must mock you in their synagogues, even as they ban your holiest of sacraments. But don’t worry, you’ve spent so much time learning the covenants about spreading your cheeks, that they’ll never get any real resistance from you Christians, except forgiveness for their sins against you. That you Christians know how to do!

    the ultimate, ultimate, sad, pathetic cucks

    you’ve cucked your very Gods, and cucked your very souls

    to the very people who despise you the most

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  105. Do you doubt that the SJWs and progressives have exaggerated the scope of the priest molestation / pedophilia scandal?

    Given that I tend to look at the world through the lens of the Duke Lacrosse case on issues of sexual assault, sexual harassment, and rape, I tend to discount the “harm” that cucky “victims” claim they have sustained because father touched their privates.

    Many years ago, in the summer of 1995, I was reading a Boston Globe Sunday Magazine piece concerning a “survivor” of the infamous father Porter. The man, aged 45 at the time of the Boston Globe story, claimed that father Porter had grabbed his buttocks, stroked his hair, and had put his hands on his crotch, which was covered by his pants, all when the man was 15 years of age. The man acknowledged that he did not have sex with father Porter, anal or otherwise. No sodomy. In fact, the man admitted that he had never taken off his clothes in father Porter’s presence.

    Granted, father Porter was one nasty human being who did prey on younger boys. He did sexually assault young boys, including altar boys. He did sodomize boys.

    The guy insisted that father Porter had ruined his life as he had become an alcoholic and that he suffered from depression. He claimed that he could not maintain relationships and that he had trouble remaining employed for long periods of time.

    In my view, our society has fostered cuckiness – a view with which I think you would generally agree. Applied to the priest molestation phenomenon, one can see the cuckiness manifested by the likes of the 45 year old “victim” of father Porter.

    What type of man would allow his life to be ruined because, at 15, a priest touched his pecker or grabbed his ass?

    • Replies: @Dan Hayes
  106. KenH says:
    @attilathehen

    They used the money to resettle Muslims and blacks all over the US. Fortunately, the Trump administration has cut back on this funding and many of their offices are closing.

    Are you sure because I remember reading that in 2017 Paul Ryan vastly increased the money for refugee resettlement in another large omnibus bill? Maybe things have changed since then.

  107. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    I’m a cradle RCCer whose family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes…….It is time for a new church for the West.

    Good luck with that. You were never really Christian to begin with. Nazism is not Christianity. Comprendre?

    How could you be ignorant of the fact that Ethiopia was a Christian nation many centuries before your ancestors were forced to renounce their european paganism? It was only in the 13th century that the Northern Crusade forced the last of the European barbarians to convert to Catholicism.

    Btw, chew on this:

    Then the LORD said, “Put your hand inside your cloak.” So Moses put his hand into his cloak, and when he took it out, the skin was leprous –it had become as white as snow.
    (Exodus 4:6)

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  108. KenH says:
    @Rurik

    It’s the Lutherans in Minnesota who’re also resettling the Somalis, just as Protestants all over the nation abase themselves to all things anti-Christ Israel.

    You’re right and in some ways protestant denominations can be even worse. Christians will be the first to denounce whites who act in their own interests and lecture us that Gawd doesn’t see race then turn right around and work to render race based aid and comfort to blacks and other non-whites.

    • Replies: @Rurik
  109. Bliss says:
    @Anon

    They were the “true Muslims”, until that was co-opted by fanatics from the Nejd.

    Sufis were the “true muslims” until 19th century Saudi Wahhabism? Are you nuts? Talk about absurd.

    Since when did whirling dervishes, tomb worshippers, mantra chanters et al become the “true muslims”? The true muslims, by definition, are those who strictly adhere to the beliefs and practices of Mohammad the Last Prophet, not those who follow the innovations of some Sufi Sheikhs.

  110. @Rurik

    You really like flaunting your stupidity. There are 3 racial groups: Caucasoids, Mongoloids, Negroids. Europeans fall in the Caucasian group. Jesus was a Caucasian. He was not European but he was still white. You’ve gone from defending black/Asian popes to now being a European pagan. Such schizo writing is a symptom of something else. Are you involved with Asian women?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Rurik
  111. @Bliss

    Ah Bliss. You’re another one whose scribblings are all over the place. Are you a Muslim now? If yes, Islam is a Christian heresy. I’m dissing Mohammed (piss be upon him). Nazism is not Christianity? I comprende you are estupido. What would make you think I’m a Nazi? Separating from blacks/Asians/Jews doesn’t mean concentration camps. They have their own countries. I know about Ethiopia. When they converted there was still a Caucasian minority that was able to develop the religion. As they mixed more with blacks, they collapsed and that’s why they never went out converting. They lost their IQ. I know about the conversion of Northern European. And now you’re defending European pagans?

    I can’t blame God entirely for your craziness. He could have put something inside your mind, but before I blame Him, explain yourself in a logical, consistent manner. It’s tough and you might not be able to do it, but try.

  112. @Anon

    sadly neitz is correct gods dead and we are better off without the slave morality. It may have sewrved us well for a long time that times over its open wound jews and niggers enter by

  113. Whenever I consider reconsidering my Catholic roots, the Pope reminds me not to do so.

    No hell . . .

    That’s rich. If not for the somersaults trying to back track it would not be funny. But the somersaults make it worth the read and the laugh.

  114. @attilathehen

    I try to avoid the provocative just being provocative. You are of course kidding with these comments.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  115. @attilathehen

    Laugh.

    “There are 3 racial groups: Caucasoids, Mongoloids, Negroids.” You realize that they really aren’t different races. They are just color tones of the same race, created by the same God and who care not a lick about skin color but the soul created in his image for whom Christ died and rose to restore to those that embrace him.”

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  116. @EliteCommInc.

    Actually, no. Provactive? No. Just trying to get logical answers from these meshuggah commentators.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  117. @EliteCommInc.

    The races are all human. However, IQ, which is related to race will separate us. I don’t know why God made blacks/Asians. They are a bad reflection on Him. We will find out everything once we die. Blacks/Asians must have their own churches. I don’t know where you live, but I live in an area vibrating with diversity. Diversity destroys. If you live in Iowa, Vermont, Idaho, move to Baltimore, Detroit, Ferguson. The negroids there need someone like you to help them. I’m sure they won’t notice your skin color.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Bliss
  118. Thirdeye says:

    Bottom line, the European Catholic establishment that Buchanan loves so much has sold doctrinal rigidity in place of moral relevance. On John Paul’s watch, the Church establishment turned a blind eye towards its own depravity and sold out its moral mission for favor with the various imperial power structures. That kind of crap was not what made the Church the conscience of Latin America. People aren’t so stupid as to not recognize the hypocrisy that was the trademark of the J-P era. The Church lost a lot of its following to Protestant denominations in Latin America when Mr. Big suppressed any real efforts to maintain true moral relevance. If the Francis era puts a renewed emphasis on moral relevance rather than the power politics shrouded in doctrinal “purity” favored by J-P, that would at least give the Church a fighting chance of remaining a worthwhile institution.

  119. Dan Hayes says:
    @Liberty Mike

    Liberty Mike:

    Your question: “What type of man would allow his life to be ruined because, at 15, a priest touched his pecker or grabbed his ass?”

    Answer: A man who wanted a large cash settlement from the Boston Archdiocese for his purported ruination!

  120. bjondo says:
    @Anon

    Judas carried out the will of Judas.

    • Replies: @Anon
  121. @attilathehen

    You are too humorous to take seriously. IQ and whiteness – I am still waiting for the DNA model. But let’s skip the logical rationale to make that case and move on to something more substantial. Neither God nor Christ, nor a single apostle makes the distinctions you are attempting to make. In fact, Christ goes out of his way to reference the least of these and the meek, and the everything else to salvation except the smartest.

    “See those these lillies in the field, in all of their beauty yet, not even Solomon and all of his glory is arrayed as one these.” And that was an entirely different species. Neither IQ nor color are part of God’s qualities in play for being christian or pope (for those lean in papal direction).

    And as I recall, there has already been an African pope, to whit, I must question the smarts of one not having known previously that an african was pope and only now decries the practice. Now it is unlikely that he was black. but it would not be shocking to find that he was not white as you understand the term.

    i do think you are safe, God has a band of believers who embrace all manner of idea that Christ has no concern about.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  122. @attilathehen

    Laughing.

    You know the only references I can come up with in which Jesus uses a color descriptor as negative is when her refers the Jewish leadership as “whitewashed tombs”.

    I am not sure white is as flattering a tone as you like to believe.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  123. @German_reader

    We have to remember that Christianity for most of its history has been not least about forcing people into certain behaviours deemed moral, through close association with state authorities.

    It’s a bit different. For example charity was precisely the moral deed which the Church consistently insisted on not making compulsory. The Church was even wary of some of the religious orders because of this. So historically what we can see today would have been considered a heresy throughout the centuries since at least Constantine the Great (and probably earlier, though earlier the Church might have been less unified on this or any other issue).

    • Replies: @German_reader
  124. @reiner Tor

    A lot of Christians today (including members of the hierarchy) unfortunately don’t seem to grasp those nuances. But you’re making very good points, thanks!

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
  125. Rurik says:
    @attilathehen

    Are you involved with Asian women?

    I love all women, of all races. The charms of a woman transcend ethnicity.

    Sawadee Khrup!

    • Replies: @Steve Gittelson
  126. @Rurik

    I love all women, of all races. The charms of a woman transcend ethnicity.

    You damn betcha! However, it is amazing, to me, the amount of pure hatred of women, as “Woman” that goes on on-line. I don’t know what it indicates, even. But, it sure do make me wonder sometimes.

    Be that as it may, I’m not attracted to Indian females — more from personality than physiognomy. That’s the best reason I know to differentiate “Asian” from “Oriental”. What the hell were the SJWs thinking when they lumped all other non-negro peoples into “Asians”?

    • Replies: @Rurik
    , @Achmed E. Newman
  127. @EliteCommInc.

    Are you Rurik’s twin? You sound just as stupid as him. The only African popes were North African Caucasians in the early stages of the church. They would have looked like St. Augustine. The Bible does not write about IQ, only wisdom and foolishness. At this point in history, we know “wisdom” is tied to IQ. We only know so much on earth. When we die, God’s got’s lots of ‘splaining to do.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  128. @German_reader

    I think the explanation for why “forcing others to do charity” is different from “forcing others not to commit adultery” is that the former essentially involves theft (taking what belongs to the other) and only then can you do the charity. In other words, you commit both sin and virtue! But with the latter, you needn’t commit any sins at all. You just stop a sin from taking place. So, “forcing others to be moral” is OK in general, but not when it comes to charity.

    [MORE]

    Example: you take 10 billion from Bill Gates, and distribute it among the poor. Then you stole 10 billion (a sin) and did charity with 10 billion (a virtue, but a fake virtue, because it’s intrinsically connected to the previous sin; especially if it’s a virtue signaling, because then you are also prideful). As opposed to preventing someone from committing adultery: then you just prevent a sin.

  129. TheJester says:

    If Pope Francis declares that Hell doesn’t exist, where does the Devil reside? Recall that Pope Francis warned us not to talk to the Devil because he can too easily fool people. If the Devil exists but Hell doesn’t, is the Devil (like Moslem refugees) a homeless spirit in need of Christian charity?

    It seems there is a serious inconsistency on the part of Pope Francis that needs to be explained.

  130. @attilathehen

    As I noted previously, avoiding provocative commentors is best avoided. I think if you read my comments you will see that I noted the issue of skin color.

    Wisdom and IQ are two separate concepts. Wisdom is as to discernment. It may or may not be accompanied IQ which is a modern concept. Intelligence and wisdom are not by definition or as practice and experienced linked. Noone doubts the intelligence of say Pres, Jefferson, yet he failed to educate his slaves, for a future with the slavery he fought against for himself.

    No wisdom and intelligence are two very different coins indeed. And salvation has nothing to do with wisdom, IQ or status . . . that is a matter of faith.

    And the foolishness of the cross is every person’s salvation.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  131. Anon[425] • Disclaimer says: • Website
    @bjondo

    Judas carried out the will of Judas.

    And he made Jesus a superstar.

    • Replies: @bjondo
  132. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    No wisdom and intelligence are two very different coins indeed.

    Amen.

    And salvation has nothing to do with wisdom, IQ or status . . . that is a matter of faith.

    Amen – as one shaykh noted, it is in keeping with Divine Justice that He makes Himself knowable to the intelligent and the stupid. The crux of the matter is not so much the mind (which is the locus of the intellect), but the heart (which is the locus of faith and character).

    If you’ve met people with Down’s Syndrome; they can be some of the most delightful people on the planet.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  133. Correction:

    Noone doubts the intelligence of say Pres. Jefferson, yet he failed to educate his slaves, for a future without the slavery he fought against for himself.

  134. Bill says:
    @Crawfurdmuir

    Agree completely. I was mostly having fun. Bergoglio won’t always be in Peter’s chair, and Xi won’t always be Emperor.

  135. @EliteCommInc.

    He did say the Queen of the South would bear witness against the generation of 1st century Judea. That’s probably Ethiopia. There’s also the Ethiopian eunuch Philip converted.

    As for what Jesus looked like, that was Roman-occupied territory, and would had the usual hodge-podge of natives, ruling class, conscripts, and traders from other parts of the Empire. There would have been Germanic mercenaries, Greeks, occasional nomads and Bedouins, various Jewish tribes and sects all of whom thoroughly hated each other, Samaritans who thought they were Jewish but the mainstream folks said they weren’t, people who still held to Mesopotamian fertility cults, and GOK what else. There would also have been the usual quota of rape-babies from various military actions.

    All we know is He looked more or less like anybody else and even folks in His home town thought He was nothing special–just as Isaiah had prophesied:

    2And he shall grow up as a tender plant before him, and as a root out of a thirsty ground: there is no beauty in him, nor comeliness: and we have seen him, and there was no sightliness, that we should be desirous of him:

    3Despised, and the most abject of men, a man of sorrows, and acquainted with infirmity: and his look was as it were hidden and despised, whereupon we esteemed him not.

    • Replies: @ElitecommInc.
  136. @Bill

    Well, Jorge is more of a Marxist. And I hear Xi likes women. So those are two differences right there.

  137. @H. S.

    Do Miss Bergoglio’s bodyguards and Vatican City police carry guns? If so, I’m sure he will be disarming them aaaaaany day now.

  138. @Anon

    There’s also that other obscure little option called Protestantism — find some non-cucked conservative or traditional congregation. Or the Eastern Orthodox Churches.

  139. @Bliss

    What DOESN’T incite the followers of the warlord prophet.

  140. Rurik says:
    @Steve Gittelson

    pure hatred of women, as “Woman” that goes on on-line. I don’t know what it indicates

    ‘incels’

    Also some of the extreme feminist bullshit doesn’t help. These women pretend to care about the put-upon people of their gender, but then go crickets when things like Rotherham happen.

    They’re rank hypocrites and full to the brim with hatred. So there’s not much there to be enamored of. Still, I wouldn’t want to live in a world without women. They’re God’s greatest gift to mankind. I worship their beauty, even as I mock their silliness.

    not attracted to Indian females — more from personality than physiognomy.

    hmm

    I confess I haven’t known many, but one in particular, (well, she was a trini, but it’s the same thing) was comely and genuinely nice.

    as for personality, I’d say American feminists are the worst. Then some black women.

    But mostly I love them all. Black, white and everything in between. But I will confess that I do prefer a beautiful white women, perhaps because I’m white too, or because they really are the epitome of creation.

    noting on this planet comes as close to pure, ethereal exquisiteness

    but then, we’re all bias

  141. @Rosamond Vincy

    uh oh,

    I don’t have any issues with what Christ looked like. While interesting, most discussions about color as to value don’t carry much weight with me. I think your understanding is correct, according to scripture, Christ didn’t have the looks one would fancy or e envious of.

    Our discussion was to whether skin color, or intelligence are indicators of papal spiritual corruption.

    I think you’ll have to take up your description with those westerners who fashion Christ the a white male super model.

    I think scripture’s point is that it didn’t matter.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  142. @ElitecommInc.

    “Our discussion was to whether skin color, or intelligence are indicators of papal spiritual corruption.”

    That I wouldn’t know. We do know that the first pope, Peter, was Jewish, but we don’t know what he looked like either. Probably muscular and sunburned, since he was a fisherman.

    As to how intelligent he was, after the Resurrection, the priests and scribes tried to intimidate him by pointing out his lack of education, but it didn’t faze him a bit. This is even more amazing if you know how much formal training orators in the ancient world needed to get to be any good. It wouldn’t be enough to study Scripture (Peter might not have been able to read or write, possibly dictated his Epistle to a professional scribe, although he probably memorized some Scripture). There are techniques of arranging and delivering a speech–vocal inflections, gestures, expressions, eye contact–that had been taught by Aristotle, Cicero, etc. For Peter to go from a guy who could handle a knife fight but not a trial, to someone who could speak so persuasively the members of the Sanhedrin were afraid of him would have registered as a small miracle in those days.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  143. @Rosamond Vincy

    Appreciate your perspective.

    But no discussion of Peter is actually pertinent to the discussion prior.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  144. @DB Cooper

    “Without religion good people do good things, bad people do bad things, only with religion does good people do bad things”.

    Communism is without religion – exclusively materialistic and proud to assert so. How does it fit into the above formulation?

    Were good people doing good things when Stalin, Mao, Castro, Pol Pot, et al., and their followers, slaughtered millions? Eric Hobsbawm thought so even after the fall of the Soviet Union, and said that the deaths of millions of Soviet citizens under Stalin would have been worth it if a genuine Communist society had been the result.

    Or were they just bad people doing bad things?

    Or were there, among all those committed communists, people who, even if bad in the outcomes they actually achieved, had nonetheless convinced themselves that what they were doing was in the service of the highest moral principles?

    And if that be true, and also true that only with religion do good people do bad things, does that therefore make Communism a religion, despite its professed rejection of God or anything supernatural?

  145. @EliteCommInc.

    It is. You’re talking about the ethnicity of Popes, are you not? You are also discussing what effect a good or bad Pope can have on the Church.

    Napoleon supposedly told the Pope, “I could destroy the Church in one year.” A cardinal replied to Napoleon, “Sir, our own clergy have been trying to destroy the Church for 1800 years. I doubt that you will be able to destroy it in one.”

    And then there’s The Decameron, Day 1, Story 2.

    If God isn’t watching the Church, then a good Pope can’t save it. If God is watching the Church, then a bad Pope can’t stop it.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @EliteCommInc.
  146. bjondo says:
    @Anon

    And you did all this on your own.
    And I responded on my own.
    As for the video, no sound, no time.
    Thanks, anyway

  147. bjondo says:
    @Begemot

    And you did all this on your own.
    And I responded on my own.
    And Jesus came against the evil in Palestine. Then as now the center of evil in the world. HQ to Satan and his children.
    Chose Satan or choose God.
    Judas not needed.
    As for the video, no sound, no time.

    Thanks, anyway

    • Replies: @bjondo
  148. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    If God isn’t watching the Church, then a good Pope can’t save it. If God is watching the Church, then a bad Pope can’t stop it.

    Beautiful! That’s the faith that seems sorely lacking in much of the Christian world. If you truly believe God is in charge and has His Hand over the faithful and His religion, there simply is no room for despair or despondency – it simply doesn’t fit into the equation. Concern or caution? Sure – but never despair. And if that despair is there, then make no doubt about it – the faith is gone – it’s just a carcass walking, making the motions…

    “…and do not despair of receiving comfort from God; only the people that do not believe despair of receiving comfort from Him.” (12:87)

    Peace.

  149. @Steve Gittelson

    . That’s the best reason I know to differentiate “Asian” from “Oriental”. What the hell were the SJWs thinking when they lumped all other non-negro peoples into “Asians”?

    They don’t know any geography and can’t get from one side of town to another without an artificial stupidity device?

    You won’t get very far on this site trying to explain the value of the simplest, traditional term for people from the “far East”, the Orientals, even to most of the smart people. I’m not sure how it’s a slur – I don’t mind being called a “Westerner”. I guess geography is mean, or something.

  150. bjondo says:
    @bjondo

    some problem with computer. ignore video line.

  151. Rurik says:
    @KenH

    You’re right and in some ways protestant denominations can be even worse

    yep

    occasionally I’ll listen to them on the radio, morbid curiousity I guess

    the other day one of these evangelicals was explaining that we should encourage the Muslims from Africa to flood in because that way it gives Christians a chance to proselytize to these Muslims, who otherwise would be too far away to convert.

    I shit you not.

    It’s obvious to me that they’re not that dumb. They’re corrupt. They’ve taken their shekels and now betray Christians and Christ. All for their sack of shekels.

    • Replies: @KenH
  152. @Rosamond Vincy

    Your comments introduce the establishment of Peter as Pope. That is not the same thing as ethnicity. The national and ethnic origins of Peter, a disciple of Christ and one of the original twelve apostles was Jewish – we were not entertaining that aspect.

    The only relevant comment would be to Peter’s education or lack thereof — but again education.

    In relationship to skin color, intelligence for salvation a non-sequitur.

    No. The discussion as to the papacy was qualification via skin color, and ethnicity. i am avoiding the introduction of the validity of the papacy to the church as the body of christ which exceeds the established catholic faith — that discussion is not part of the discussion prior. As to qualification for salvation or service to the body of christ

    there is no indication that skin color, ethnicity, IQ are required.

    That was the nature of our exchange.

  153. @EliteCommInc.

    Caveat:

    When Christ entered into the service of christ — his ethnicity was utterly without merit or issue.

  154. @EliteCommInc.

    I’m not sure we really disagree here. I actually think my position is closer to yours than it is to Attila’s. God has picked some pretty strange people to make His point, so I hesitate to question His judgment.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  155. Bad souls “are not punished,” Pope Francis is quoted, “those who do not repent and cannot therefore be forgiven disappear. There is no hell, there is the disappearance of sinful souls.”

    This comports with the doctrine of Jehovah’s Witnesses. I don’t recall the scriptural reference. Perhaps a local JW will provide it.

    Sorry if this has already been discussed. I got here late and have not read the thread.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  156. @Talha

    Talha, just a reminder. You are Pakistani (Asian), Muslim (Christian heretic) and your home country has an average IQ of 84. I will help to take care of Caucasian Down Syndrome people. This is my Christian duty. You have your duty to Pakistan.

    • Replies: @Talha
  157. @WorkingClass

    Laugh. Well, the Pope will just have to take that up with Christ who referenced hell more than.

    Luke 16:19-30.

    I am sure what the Pope was doing walking treading lightly so as not scare people away from coming to Christ. This is not uncommon among people of faith. There’s plenty of time to remind one another about hell. Not a single Gospel starts with the tales about hell.

    I am giving the Pope a hard time here, but I think I get his drift.

  158. @Rosamond Vincy

    Laughing. I suspect that the commenter you are referencing is being a tad over the top facetious.

    It is a good idea to walk lightly on issues of faith.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  159. @EliteCommInc.

    “avoiding provocative commentors,” if this applies to me, I’ll take the description. If I’m provocative, it’s because I deal with objective truth. I still can’t believe the nonsense you type. “Noone doubts the intelligence of say Pres, Jefferson…” That you would post such an assertion about one of the Founders of country, and juxtapose it against low IQ blacks – I CAN’T EVEN!!! Wisdom is related to IQ. Read the Bell Curve. You keep avoiding this topic because I have posted facts you cannot rebut. The communion wafer does not work for blacks/Asians. Compare RCC Haiti to WASP USA. Compare RCC El Salvador to WASP USA. The commentator anarchyst has not responded to my question about whether he would accept a black/Asian pope. You cannot deal with the most important objective biological truth – IQ which is tied to race which deal with morality. An IQ of 85 and below is tied to criminal behavior. A country needs a population with an IQ of 90+ to function. The RCC is now predominatly black/Asian. Put a fork in it, it’s done. The Orthodox Church with its racial/ethnic churches is the only hope for the West.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  160. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Thanks for the reminder; we are retards, so we appreciate all the help we can get. It’s nice that people are willing to go out of their way to help us.

    Peace.

    PS. Since you are into public service announcements, please remind all the nice High-IQ white people to have kids, because – well, y’know…

    • Replies: @Talha
  161. Talha says:
    @Talha

    For the record; I fully support ecclesiastical and formal legal (this is more important) recognition of Islam as a “Christian heresy” or “heterodox Christian movement” in the vein of Mormonism, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc. in Western countries.

    100% – the sooner, the better.

    A seat at the World Council of Churches (this is nice, but not necessary – the above two are more important):

    https://www.oikoumene.org/en/member-churches

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  162. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    I don’t know why God made blacks/Asians. They are a bad reflection on Him. We will find out everything once we die. Blacks/Asians must have their own churches. I don’t know where you live, but I live in “an area vibrating with diversity. Diversity destroys.

    Yet another WN hypocrite.

    If “diversity destroys” why do you choose to live in “an area vibrating with diversity“? Is anyone forcing you to stay there?

    I don’t know what god you worship but it is obviously not the God who created this diverse world we live in.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  163. @EliteCommInc.

    I’m not so sure he’s being facetious.

  164. @attilathehen

    The communion wafer does not work for blacks/Asians.

    Consecrated or unconsecrated?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  165. @Rosamond Vincy

    Consecrated. Look at RCC Haiti and El Salvador. And, I’m a girl.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  166. @Bliss

    I live where I live because it is the city of my birth. I am a part of the reconquista.

    There is only one God. He has to explain all to us when we die.

  167. @Rosamond Vincy

    You are correct. I’m deadly serious when I comment.

  168. @Talha

    Biology first, beliefs second. Your biology is not kosher. The West needs to gets it biology in order, correct beliefs will follow.

    • Replies: @Talha
  169. @attilathehen

    Consecrated wafer does not “work”?

    Them’s fightin’ words, Little Missy.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  170. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Your biology is not kosher.

    See what I’m saying; we’re too retarded to know that. If we did, we would have chosen to be born White like you all did – man, that’s the last time I select something so important out of a hat – silly me…

    Again, have mercy on the mentally challenged; WWJD?

    Peace.

  171. @Rosamond Vincy

    OK cuck. I now crown you Queen Isabella II. Gather your army of Haitians and El Salvadorans. You need to march to the headquarters of the USA Conference of Bishops and tell them to get rid of the gays in the clergy, state Islam is a Christian heresy, and that present day Jews are not the chosen and do not have a covenant with God.

    In the meantime, the Orthodox Church will be the church of the West.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  172. @attilathehen

    I’ll take it as a compliment. Isabella la Catolica rocked. She rallied the troops on horseback when she was 8-months-pregnant with Catherine of Aragon (who would grow up to hold off a rebellion on the Scottish border when Henry VIII was in France, not that this gave him a clue what a keeper she was).

    I don’t know what your Creed is, but if you don’t believe in the efficacy of the Body and Blood of Christ, you are no Catholic.

    As St. Augustine said long ago, the Sacraments are valid even if the priest is a bad man. As long that bad man has the Indelible Character of Holy Orders, you are still married, your baby is still baptized, the First Communion of your youngest and the Confirmation of your oldest are valid, and if he comes to confess and anoint you when you’re sick, it’s valid even if you’ve never liked him and part of you almost wishes you would die in sin rather than have to listen to Father Cirrhosis’s delirious mutterings for five more minutes.

    Perhaps you imagine a separate heaven, if not hell, for sects you don’t like? Bishop Fulton Sheen said we may be surprised by some of the people we see in heaven, but the biggest surprise will be if we make it there ourselves.

    As for what saves the West, CS Lewis said the issue is not whether Christianity is good for society, but whether it is true.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  173. @Rosamond Vincy

    I’m a cradle RCCer. I posted this in a previous comment. My family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes. I know about Donatism. I went to RCC grammar, high school and graduated from a Jesuit university. St. Augustine lived at a time when the world was a small place. If he were alive today, I don’t think he would believe the way he did in the 5th century. Biology has come into direct conflict with beliefs and biology is winning. Queen Isabella lived in a different time. She would be a nationalist today, but what kind of a Catholic would she be? CS Lewis died right before Vatican II ended. He lived in a different world. If he were alive today, I don’t know what he would believe. Christianity is good and true for everyone. But, everyone (blacks/Asians) must have their own churches. I have no interest in seeing blacks/Asians in heaven. We are living in interesting times, and they will be just as interesting after we die.

  174. @attilathehen

    St. Augustine lived at a time when the world was a small place. If he were alive today, I don’t think he would believe the way he did in the 5th century

    The world was even smaller in 1st-century Judea. I see you’re on the same page as the theologian in The Great Divorce:

    I’m going to point out how people always forget that Jesus (here the
    Ghost bowed) was a comparatively young man when he died. He would have outgrown some of his
    earlier views, you know, if he’d lived. As he might have done, with a little more tact and patience. I
    am going to ask my audience to consider what his mature views would have been. A profoundly
    interesting question. What a different Christianity we might have had if only the Founder had
    reached his full stature! I shall end up by pointing out how this deepens the significance of the
    Crucifixion. One feels for the first time what a disaster it was: what a tragic waste … so much
    promise cut short.
    CS Lewis

    And then there’s your idea that biology–which God created–trumps the Eucharist, which is God:

    But, everyone (blacks/Asians) must have their own churches.

    Well, shame on the Apostle Philip for baptizing the Ethiopian eunuch. Shame on St. Peter Clavier for bringing the Faith to African slaves. Shame on St. Paul for trying to win Jews to the Faith, even though he himself had been won to it after being such an enthusiastic persecutor that Ananias was initially reluctant to instruct and baptize him. Oh, and Paul even said this:

    1I SAY then: Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2God hath not cast away his people, which he foreknew. ….

    11I say then, have they so stumbled, that they should fall? God forbid. But by their offence, salvation is come to the Gentiles, that they may be emulous of them. 12Now if the offence of them be the riches of the world, and the diminution of them, the riches of the Gentiles; how much more the fulness of them? 13For I say to you, Gentiles: as long indeed as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I will honour my ministry, 14If, by any means, I may provoke to emulation them who are my flesh, and may save some of them. 15For if the loss of them be the reconciliation of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

    For that matter, shame on Our Lord for saying, “Going therefore, teach ye all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.” Obviously, He should have said only Aryan nations.

    We will be responsible for every soul we could have helped to heaven, and drove away instead.

    As Haydock put it in his commentary on the parable of the talents:

    He that had received the one. The man who hid this one talent, represents all those who, having received any good quality, whether mental or corporal, employ it only on earthly things. (St. Gregory) — Origen is also of the same sentiment: if you see any one, says he, who has received from God the gift of teaching and instructing others to salvation, yet will not exercise himself in this function, he buries his talent in the ground, like this unworthy servant, and must expect to receive the like reward

    .

    I have no interest in seeing blacks/Asians in heaven

    You may get your wish, but not because they didn’t get there.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Anon
  175. @Rosamond Vincy

    I was being both polite and diplomatic —-

    Since he has take the bone, and run he will have to justify it before scripture and in this case the Catholic Church — the position is so out of line with either it will be interesting to read his positions

    But based on doctrine of scripture — no legs — provocative for the sake of being provocative in my view.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  176. @ElitecommInc.

    Claims to be a she. Scroll up to read our latest conversation. Her reluctance to share salvation with anyone she doesn’t like fits no form of Christianity I ever heard of.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  177. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Well played…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  178. @Talha

    I am horrified by what I have been reading. Where does Jesus say to hate thine enemy? Where does he say we don’t have to forgive once, let alone 70 x 7? Where does he say that loving your neighbor means only people like you, when the story of the Good Samaritan, the outcast of that time, makes it clear that kindness doesn’t come from or get shown to only one group of people?

    Reginald Denny was attacked by black people during the L.A. riots, but Bobby Green Jr., Lei Yuille, Titus Murphy, and Terri Barnett–all black–came to his aid. When a mosque was vandalized in Columbus, OH after 9/11, a local synagogue allowed Muslims to use its facilities until the repairs were finished. Many nuns and priests risked or lost their lives, hiding Jews and Roma from the Nazis during WWII. You can find nice people and jerks in EVERY group. Most of us fall short of many of these on a regular basis, but contrary to Yoda, there is “try.”

    There’s a big difference between claiming you have the right to decide who gets into your country and claiming you have the right to decide who gets into Heaven.

    • Replies: @Talha
  179. @attilathehen

    I don’t know which Bible you’ve been reading, but please read or reread Lewis’ Screwtape Letters. Your “Christianity and Race Theory” is about as valid as “Christianity and Spelling Reform.”

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  180. @Rosamond Vincy

    I have read the previous comments. Again a good laugh, not in mocking, but interesting and again provocative.

    In this instance, gender is unimportant to me. It’s just not relevant. When i make reference to being just provocative, I mean the position doesn’t have support via the concepts it advances. I have yet to read any material from the foundations of christianity to support the position. I can’t go beyond that. On matters of faith, the fine line for me is whether scripture contradicts a position. In this case, there is just no material to support the advances. Maybe Christ will sort people by color and IQ —

    But there is just no evidence to support any such notion that color, intelligence or even wisdom is a barrier for the full embrace of Jesus Christ. As for evangelism, maybe are called upon to share the gospel, but i am not sure I can demand anyone share it as i think it ought to be someone or with whom — scripture lays that out and so be it.

    It may very well be that not sharing the gospel for certain people is a good idea Alstaire Cook once wrote about bothering the Queen’s Palace Guard, as one might be liable as

    “One’s liable to get their head broke.” The Americans

    – I think. I can think of numerous times when my own silence or behavior has been less than christian invitational –

  181. @EliteCommInc.

    Not all of us are tactful enough to share the Gospel without doing more harm than keeping silence, but I’m pretty sure there’s a prohibition against actively driving other people away.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  182. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Lady, I’m totally on board with you. I’m a Muslim and I can tell you that I don’t take seriously the “Church of the Holy Shepherd to Kick Them Niggaz Out the Pews”. There is now way this represents any normative form of Christianity. Actually it reminds me a lot of the way our Salafi-Wahhabi extremists operate – trying to make the gates of Heaven as narrow as possible.

    There’s a big difference between claiming you have the right to decide who gets into your country and claiming you have the right to decide who gets into Heaven.

    Amen.

    I’m pretty sure there’s a prohibition against actively driving other people away.

    One should seriously fear God in this regard – this is not a joke. There is no need to water-down doctrine to make it palatable for everyone, but repelling people from God is just out of bounds.

    Screwtape Letters

    I have a copy of this; brilliant book.

    TheHen seems to be good for a few laughs, but I stopped taking her seriously a long time ago. Personalities like these are a dime a dozen on the Intranet – it’s part of the cover charge to participate.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  183. @Talha

    Stop taking a Caucasian Christian woman seriously? Oh, but we should take a low IQ Asian Muslim (Christian heretic) seriously? You may have a copy of the Screwtape Letters but since you are a functional illiterate you don’t comprende, no Muslims in heaven. You shtick, a Christian heretic coming to the rescue of a demented Christian woman is funny though. It’s very Seinfeldian. You need to seriously fear God. You are not a Christian.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosamond Vincy
  184. @EliteCommInc.

    Yes, I am interesting and provocative. These compliments are hurled at me frequently offline . How about this. Here’s my dealio for cucks: separation.

    We separate blacks/Asians/Jews from the West. We give them Bibles. Let them form their churches and deal with God. We Caucasian, European, Western, Christian, neo-page, white, light-skinned people, we’ll deal with our own problems. Now, if people like Rosamund want to preach the Gospel, they will do this on their own in the non-white countries. She will not be able to come back to the West. What Rosamund is preaching is the evil, IQ destroying ideology of cuck pope Frannie – accompaniment. This cuck wants sinners holding hands with saints, walking together. “Sin” also means low IQ. We know what destroyed the ancient Egyptians (Caucasians) – mixing with blacks. We know what destroyed the ancient Indian Aryans – mixing with Asians. If you want to mix, fine, you will move to black/Asian countries. Caucasians need their own safe spaces in the West.

  185. @Rosamond Vincy

    China has told cuck pope Frannie that they will select bishops. Cuck pope Frannie is ok with this. China is now going to ban the Bible from being sold. https://gizmodo.com/china-just-banned-online-sales-of-the-bible-1825027863

    I’ve read other articles that China will publish its own Bible, a Chinese bible, in keeping with their socialist values. It looks like they are Sinoizing Christianity. What’s your opinion about this? It seems they want “Chinese Christianity.”

  186. Anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    As Haydock put it in his commentary

    OT, but do you know if the Haydock bible is anywhere on the web in an accurate copy? I used to use a site which has since been taken down– do I have to buy a copy?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  187. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Stop taking a Caucasian Christian woman seriously?

    No, I take them seriously – just not you since you aren’t very representative of most Caucasian Christian women. Most don’t say things as blasphemous as “God has explaining to do” or the creation of “Blacks and Asians reflect badly on Him” – who the hell do you think you are??!!

    I can’t take someone seriously who has been rebuked by plenty of their own Christian brothers/sisters for having a out-of-left-field understanding of Christianity. It doesn’t matter if you think it’s right; the point is nobody else does.

    I’ve asked you multiple times in the past; please point out a church or congregation that has your views so we can all see how much traction they have among the Christian community. Up to now you are basically a one-man army typing from God-knows where; a basement, insane asylum, library – I don’t know. Give me the name of a Christian theologian, preacher, someone that has a that respectable or decent following that believes like you do.

    coming to the rescue of a demented Christian woman

    She doesn’t need my help – she stepped out the ring – you’re shadow boxing and your pants keep falling down. Hey, it’s entertaining – no doubt, like the Simpsons or something, but I don’t take Sideshow Bob seriously either.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  188. @attilathehen

    Well, I don’t think I’d want to come back. If you’re sending all the Jews away, then Jesus, Mary, Joseph, the 12 apostles, Mary, Martha, and Lazarus of Bethany, Mary Magdalene, St. Paul, and many of the women of Jerusalem who wept for Jesus as He suffered will be on my side of the fence. I’ll be in very good company!

    By the way, whom are your brand of “Christians” going to worship?

  189. @Anon

    BibleHub has it. Click on COM for Commentary and you’ll find Haydock.

    You’ll also find an online Douay-Rheims translation among the other options. I used to go to a site that posted the Daily Readings from the DRV, but they stopped. The NABRE version on USCCB doesn’t pack the same wallop.

  190. @attilathehen

    I guess you think Jesus was a cuck because He was Meek and Humble of Heart. He even asked His Father to forgive the people who killed Him, instead of just zapping them with some lightning bolts.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  191. dfordoom says: • Website
    @attilathehen

    I’ve read other articles that China will publish its own Bible, a Chinese bible, in keeping with their socialist values. It looks like they are Sinoizing Christianity. What’s your opinion about this? It seems they want “Chinese Christianity.”

    They’d be better off without any kind of Christianity. Christianity has led the West to ruin – the Chinese would be well advised to discourage Christianity in their country. If they can’t get rid of it completely then a Sinoized Christianity would at least be less harmful.

    Christianity will prove to be a menace to Chinese civilisation.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  192. @Rosamond Vincy

    You did not answer my direct questions about the RCC and China. You refuse to deal with reality. The RCC has been broken up. Diversity broke it. Jesus was not a cuck. He was a brave Man who died for people. Stop being ridiculous. I said blacks/Asians must have their own churches. China is beginning this policy. There is nothing cuck pope Frannie can do about it.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  193. @attilathehen

    laughing.

    Look you are entitled to invent, create and advocate whatever form faith in Christ you choose. Just know this, nothing in scripture supports your advocacy. You seem to think that whites aren’t sinners — by your own comments I, not my speculation.

    Scripture contradicts the very suggestion as mankind is relegated to the same place by sin — no exceptions for IQ. skin color, social class or anything else.

    Laugh. Your issue is not me, but with scripture and Christ. It is not something I could subscribe to as it challenges the very cause of Christ’s death and his resurrection. Not a single apostle endorses this manner of faith and practice.

    Galations 3:

    "26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

    Collations 3:

    "8 But now you yourselves are to put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy language out of your mouth. 9 Do not lie to one another, since you have put off the old man with his deeds, 10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all."

    I don't know what else to say, aside from the observation in scripture which in context disagrees, with you and that would include the doctrine of the catholic faith.

    As I said, I think you are being mischievous. And I am laughing.

    Not at your expense.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  194. @Talha

    Your wife is a Caucasian and she used to be a Christian until she married you. She chose to degenerate to your level. You have no concept of a real Caucasian Christian woman. Your spouse had half Asian Paki offspring and converted to Islam. She ended her biological superiority with you. She has also damned her soul. I recall you have an Egyptian Muslim brother-in-law. Egyptian Muslims have black ancestry. If you have nieces and nephews by this man, your children are further degenerated by their relation to them.

    Your opinions on Christianity are worthless because they are coming from a heretic. You have no concept of real Christianity. Also, being an Asian, you have no concept of the West and its racial soul. I am pointing out biological facts to Christians who cannot deal with reality. At least they have a theological basis to try and refute me. They cannot. Biology and beliefs have into conflict. Biology is winning. The closest Christian sect that matches my beliefs is the Orthodox Church. The churches are racial/ethnic. The Orthodox Church will be the Church of the West. If you want to convert to Christianity, you can start your Pakistani church.

    Rosamund has not answered by questions and comments about the Chinese and RCC. She cannot. She does not know how to deal with these new realities.

    I am one person now. But I do comment on other websites. I’ve started hearing commentators make statements such as I type. They don’t give me credit. That’s ok. It’s important to get these conversations started.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @Talha
  195. @dfordoom

    I heard some podcast a couple of weeks ago that the Chinese do not trust the RCC because they see it as a globalizing institution which will destroy their homogeneous country. I have to agree with the Chinese on this point. Cuck pope Frannie is behind the black/Asian/Muslim invasion of Western Europe. The Eastern Europeans are fine. They are mixed with RCC and Orthodox so this a blessing. You are correct in that it is better for China to deal with their own Christianity. For whatever reason God made Asian people, I leave it up to Him to deal with them after their die. I watch many RCC shows and they whine about the Chinese and Sudanese. These people are disgusting. We need to save the West before we worry about other people.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @dfordoom
  196. @EliteCommInc.

    “being mischievous,” You strike me as the kind of male who tells a woman how beautiful she looks when she’s angry. I never said Caucasians were not sinners. I stated that an IQ of 85 and less will always lead to criminal behavior, i.e., sin. People with IQs of 90+ will sin, but they at least create functioning societies and countries. I am a Christian and live by Christian principles. I do have a prayer in which I thank the Lord for making me a Caucasian with an IQ of 90+. I know Orthodox Jewish men have a prayer where they thank God for not making them a woman. God doesn’t hear their prayers and they are haram anyway. I have no quarrel with the Scriptures. But, they do not deal with biology, IQ. They are spiritual. And, once, again, spiritual development is tied to IQ. We are allowed to read other books besides the Bible. Also, the stories in the Bible are limited to a small area. They knew about India and southern Africa but had little contact with these places. We live in a different world today. We see these people up close and they cannot be in the West.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Bliss
  197. @attilathehen

    I have no idea what’s going to be put in or left out of the Chinese Bible, so obviously I can’t comment on it. Translation is tricky: sometimes translating the words accurately completely misses the connotations of the expression used. The NABRE is supposed to be pretty accurate, but we all know the DRV and KJV sound more majestic. Is the majesty inaccurate? Scholars say the Koine of the NT is very dry, businessy wording, used for memos about late shipments, requests for more olive oil, and complaints that the Rhodian perfumes aren’t selling very well. Does that give the Gospels more weight, because their authors are so matter-of-fact about what happened instead of wallowing in the ancient version of purple prose?

    I’m not a big admirer of Pope Francis or post-Vatican II guitar masses, but the Church has withstood the current events and fads of many eras. It has ALWAYS been that way, as we see by Paul’s warnings:

    I say this so that no one may deceive you by specious arguments.
    5
    For even if I am absent in the flesh, yet I am with you in spirit, rejoicing as I observe your good order and the firmness of your faith in Christ.
    6
    So, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, walk in him,
    7
    rooted in him and built upon him and established in the faith as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving.
    8
    See to it that no one captivate you with an empty, seductive philosophy according to human tradition, according to the elemental powers of the world* and not according to Christ.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @dfordoom
  198. @attilathehen

    “a demented Christian woman”

    For if we are out of our minds,* it is for God; if we are rational, it is for you.
    2Col 5:13

  199. @attilathehen

    I urge you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree in what you say, and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be united in the same mind and in the same purpose.f
    11
    For it has been reported to me about you, my brothers, by Chloe’s people, that there are rivalries among you.
    12
    I mean that each of you is saying, “I belong to* Paul,” or “I belong to Apollos,” or “I belong to Cephas,” or “I belong to Christ.”g
    13
    * Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

    1Cor 1:10-13

  200. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Thanks for insulting my extended family.

    So you admit your views are likely more marginal than the Lords Resistance Army. That’s fine. Again, a simple name of anybody who is a theologian, pastor, scholar that has a respectable following of say 500 or maybe even a specific church body will do.

    The Orthodox Church has nothing to do with your racial supremacist views; if you have proof, then cite a source that matches your views on race from any of the patriarchs, past or present. Should be fairly simple; I can cite hundreds of sources for my mainline Islamic doctrine.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  201. @Talha

    You’re welcome.

    One more time. Your hundreds of sources for you Islamic doctrine are worthless because Islam is a Christian heresy. All your sources are flawed, false, misleading.

    Again, one more time. Orthodox Churches are racial/ ethnic. Have you heard of Greek, Serbian, Russian etc.? Racial/ethnic separation is implied. Again, you don’t understand this because Islam only sees two worlds: Dar al Harb and Dar al Islam. When Islam takes over a people, country it destroys everything. The North African Caucasians were destroyed by Islamic black slavery, polygamy, concubinage. You are Pakistani. Originally you were a part of India and your genetics were ruined by mixing with Asians. In Pakistan, first cousin marriage from Islamic practice finished the destruction of the Pakistanis.

    Eastern Europeans built walls to keep out the invading blacks/Muslims/Asian, who have now flooded Western European. They implicitly said blacks/Muslims/Asians come from inferior cultures and do not belong in Europe.

    One more time: you cannot understand any of this because you are Asian/Muslim.

    • Replies: @Talha
  202. @Rosamond Vincy

    “but the Church has withstood the current events and fads of many eras” The Church cannot withstand low IQ. You are looking at history from an incorrect perspective. The past 2000 years do not matter because up until Vatican II, the RCC was Caucasian/European. Now that the world has been settled, we can see stark racial differences which point out IQ differences. I specifically named RCC Haiti and El Salvador as proof that beliefs cannot change biology. You must deal with reality.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @dfordoom
  203. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Cool, so you’re for ecclesiastical-supported ethnic separatism; totally fine with me – not my religion.

    But I cannot think of any Orthodox Church whose doctrine assumes the racial superiority over another. I’m simply asking for doctrinal evidence and you seem incapable of producing it – sidestepping the question by various unimaginative insults on Islam.

    Again, I’d simply like names of any Christian religious leader or theologian with any serious following that thinks like you. You seem incapable of producing a single one, which means I am right not to take you seriously.

    You don’t need Islam to destroy the West, the West is doing a fine job on its own.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  204. @attilathehen

    The Church cannot withstand low IQ.

    So Jesus could heal lameness, blindness, muteness, leprosy, possession by demons, and raise people from the dead, including Himself, but His Church can’t handle low IQ?

    Golly. To think He told Peter “the gates of hell shall not prevail against it,” but a few supposedly dim bulbs could bring it down.

    BTW, I know nothing about Talha besides what I’ve read here, but I see no evidence that he’s cognitively impaired.

    Do you happen to remember what Jesus said about people who go around calling others “Thou fool”?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  205. @attilathehen

    As for when a woman is attractive when she’s angry. depends on the women, the issue and the circumstances.

    As for your dance around color IQ , , , and the nature or tendency to violate the law — nothing in scripture supports any such notion, that this person or that person is going to be more likely to sin — this is the IQ morality press dressed up in details.

    I think with respect to education, it’s a safe bet that among the Jews, the pharisees, Sadducees and rabbi’s would be those with most recognized intelligence — and it was not unusual for Christ to have choice words for them —-

    As for the dance around IQ criminal behavior and sin — what is legal and what is sinful — are not synonymous. If one had relations with a woman not my wife, it’s not illegal, but it is sinful.

    So goes the matter of attempting to explicate spiritual relations via human contexts. Sins may or may not be illegal and Christ in no manner explicates sin this manner. Your entire model has no basis in scripture. So regardless of how you design it via the rhetoric — it will be rebutted and unsupported by Christ, the apostles and scripture.

    I am a very bitter guy – very. There’s no law against bitterness, but it a position condemned by Christ. It wouldn’t matter a lick what my IQ, skin color, class status or celebrity status — my bitterness is still accounted as sin and perhaps the worst sin because it rejects the founding and guiding principle of forgiveness —

    It doesn’t matter how many intellectual hoola hoops I make to justify it — it’s not illegal — it’s sin.

    As I noted you are welcome to make up whatever manner of faith and practice you desire in your walk with Christ. My position is simple, it is not supported by scripture.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @Talha
  206. @EliteCommInc.

    “I think with respect to education, it’s a safe bet that among the Jews, the pharisees, Sadducees and rabbi’s would be those with most recognized intelligence — and it was not unusual for Christ to have choice words for them”

    Amen and amen! In addition:

    Acts 4:13 Observing the boldness of Peter and John and perceiving them to be uneducated, ordinary men, they were amazed, and they recognized them as the companions of Jesus.

    1Cor1:18 The message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

    “I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
    and the learning of the learned I will set aside.”

    20 Where is the wise one? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 [i]For since in the wisdom of God the world did not come to know God through wisdom, it was the will of God through the foolishness of the proclamation to save those who have faith. 22 For Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we proclaim Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those who are called, Jews and Greeks alike, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength.

  207. @Rosamond Vincy

    A life in Christ in my view is not static . . . as one’s willingness to give in to the holy spirit, so is one’s greater likeness to christ . . . the new self is immediately new — but the old self keeps getting in one’s way – sometimes.

    just to be clear — nothing and I mean nothing about being a christian condones violating US border laws, as they exist today.

  208. @attilathehen

    It is entirely possible to loyal to nation, state and ethnicity without violating one’s faith as established by Christ, unless said contradicts the command of Christ.

    Note: our immigration laws do not.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
    , @dfordoom
  209. Correction:

    It may very well be that not sharing the gospel for certain people is a good idea Alstaire Cook once wrote about bothering the Queen’s Palace Guard, as one might be liable as

    “One’s liable to get their head broke.” The Americans

    Alistaire Cook – I think.

  210. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    My position is simple, it is not supported by scripture.

    Which is buttressed by my position; if you can’t even point out a congregation at the mere level of the marginal Westboro Baptist Church or a single serious theologian or clergyman, pastor, etc., then your view is without much merit. Opinions are like bellybuttons; everyone has one – but who cares.

    I mean I’ve seen some fairly left-field positions from certain marginal Christians like this one:

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_James_Only_movement

    But at least they have some traction in their community.

  211. @Talha

    Of course you are for racial/ethnic intermixing, Islam is a universal belief system.

    Islam will not destroy the West. Its low IQ adherents don’t have that kind of power.

    What can destroy the West is the RCC and the Zioevangizers. Universal brotherhood and church are the problems. This is only happening in Western Europe. Eastern Europe is fine. Fortunately, the resistance is rising and these issues will be dealt with.

  212. @EliteCommInc.

    If you are Roman Catholic and accept black/Asian priests-popes, you are the problem.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  213. @Rosamond Vincy

    You are describing physical ailments. These have been cured in modern times because of the advances in medicine. How were these advances made? By people with high IQs. The late Stephen Hawking is an example of someone physically impaired but with a high IQ. Blacks/Asians may be healthy, but with low IQs they have no use. These groups did not invent anything. “Sin” is directly tied to low IQ. Do you not read crime statistics?

    Talha is in the talented 10% of Pakis. Average Pakistani IQ is 84. He is the rare exception, not the rule. He has enough brains to realize the truth, but he tied down by his Asian background.

    Once again, if you want to associate and live with blacks/Asians in the RCC, fine. But we want something else.

    Look at Japan. Average IQ 100. They are the only intelligent Asians and have built a modern, wealthy, democratic country. They are not Christians. They do not allow immigration into their country. They have very little crime and there is no income inequality. Do you not want this for the West? Separate blacks/Asians/Jews. The evil Jesuits are going to try to convert them. It won’t work because they can see what the RCC has done to Western Europe.

    The RCC has declared Africa to be the future of the West. You will see twerking in churches.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  214. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Of course you are for racial/ethnic intermixing, Islam is a universal belief system.

    Yes Islam is a universal belief system. But I am neither pro-mixing or anti-mixing because both positions are silly. People will make the choices they want to based on what they prioritize for their families and their future, for example…

    Recently, I spoke to a Bosnian brother in my Sufi Order a few nights ago at a fundraiser. The subject came up about him trying to find a husband for his young daughter. He said he is taking trips with her to Bosnia to his old village to find someone since they know the families and there are good pious men there – he doesn’t like too many of the Bosnian men he has seen around here. I asked him; well, there are also Albanians around here – so what about one of them? He said; yeah, but the culture is different as well as the language, and they couldn’t be confident about being able to do real good background check on the guy and his family.

    There was no air of ethnic superiority nor did I feel at any point he was being prejudiced – at all. Nor did I feel any distance from him as his brother in faith. All of his concerns were valid concerns from a father’s perspective. It makes total sense – of course one prefers familiarity when it comes to marriage; the similar culture, language, food, etc. make for a more stable marriage – there is no racism involved – I mean, he was interested much even in Albanians. Now if he sets up his daughter with some idiot, impious Bosnian over a good, pious Albanian or Syrian or Pakistani, then I will be very disappointed, but he has his priorities straight.

    Eastern Europe is fine.

    Yes, all good – except for the fertility rates in a nose dive that are often even worse than Western nations. Why can’t High-IQ nations fix this? Or is this all part of the grand plan?

    Fortunately, the resistance is rising and these issues will be dealt with.

    Good for you – now again; the name of the church or a single theologian, please?

    I’m getting a little tired of asking.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  215. KenH says:
    @Rurik

    because that way it gives Christians a chance to proselytize to these Muslims, who otherwise would be too far away to convert.

    Then it confirms one of my theories that Christians are supporting the invasion because native attendance and interest is declining and they think Muslims and other third world groups will happily convert to Christianity and solve the problem. It doesn’t work that way with Muslims and not only will they violently resist but forcibly attempt to convert the fat head Christians who subscribe to this reality averse worldview.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  216. Talha says:
    @KenH

    Yeah – it’s backfiring – most Muslims that convert out of Islam go atheist (like most Christians). Most of our converts coming into Islam are from Christian background though, by far.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buyer%27s_remorse

    • Replies: @Anon
    , @KenH
  217. @Talha

    The RCC previous to Vatican II condemned Islam as a Christian heresy.

    Again, you are a Christian heretic and belong to a second tier race – Asians.

    Biology first, beliefs second.

    • Replies: @Talha
  218. @KenH

    Excellent points. The most dangerous person is the cuck Caucasian RCC/Zioevangizer/gentile Freemason male. This creature is destroying the West. If he is RCC, he accepts black/Asian priests-popes. If he is a Zioevangizer, he believes present day Jews are the chosen and the smartest tribe. If he is a gentile Freemason, he believes in universal brotherhood.

    I recently saw an RCC program on the RCC channel EWTN in which RCC convert Ross Douthat (New York Times writer) was talking about the cuck pope Frannie. He said part of the problem is that Frannie comes from the southern hemisphere and speaks from a different perspective. He said as the RCC becomes predominantly southern hemisphere and African, we will see more of these problems. This cuck is a complete degenerate. It is time to move the papacy to the Congo or the Philippines.

  219. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    More insults – thanks.

    As I said; please, please, please let us be recognized as a Christian Heresy in the West – I’m all for it. It would be a complete game- changer.

    See the thing is; you can call yourself Napoleon – but if a certain number of people don’t agree with you, then you just come across sounding crazy. And I know you’re not crazy, are you?

    So I assume some critical mass of people agrees with your take on Christian doctrine because otherwise you might be typing this out from a padded cell or something.

    Again, I’m simply asking for one or two names; it’s really not much. So, names of churches or theologians please.

  220. @attilathehen

    As I note,

    you are entitled to create and advance whatever view you so desire. However, when it comes to matter of faith and practice — whether, Jew, Christian of any unique denomination (congregation) I will also look to whether scripture old or new support the advance.

    If it does, I will grant it out. If it doesn’t I will so clearly state. Your views are sustainable as to any christian practice based on scripture.

    Your description of christian practice has no support scriptural. Even what I understand about Catholicism would reject the notions you claim have some relevance to the practice of faith. There is no IQ, color, class, position, not even a criminal record nor sin itself can separate one from being a follower of christ and all that following christ means. prescription for being selected as head of any body of faith. It is not a suggestion by Christ nor a single apostle. As any manner of christian ethos — it is unfounded.

    Again, your issue is not with me, and the issue you have created is not on my account, but what is the openess of christ —

    I cannot solve that for you and it appears Christ has no intention of doing solving your preferences either.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  221. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    I do have a prayer in which I thank the Lord for making me a Caucasian with an IQ of 90+.

    Lol. That’s too low. You need an IQ of 105+ to get to heaven. That’s why China wants to separate it’s church from lower IQ races like yours. I am sure you have no problem with that, right?

    I know Orthodox Jewish men have a prayer where they thank God for not making them a woman. God doesn’t hear their prayers and they are haram anyway.

    Haram? Hmmm, I knew there was something very fishy about you.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  222. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    The evil Jesuits are going to try to convert them. It won’t work because they can see what the RCC has done to Western Europe.

    That already happened many centuries ago. They saw what it did in the Philippines and didn’t wan’t to go that route. That happened when the RCC was still your kind of church. Do you know how they wiped out your cult in their land?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  223. @EliteCommInc.

    It isn’t just what I want. It is what Caucasian/European people want. You are a laggard.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  224. @Bliss

    Bliss, your functional illiteracy is showing again. Decide what you are and on whose side you are.

    I said an IQ of 90+. My IQ is over 120. The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians. Yet, they are inferior to Caucasians.

    Haram is the Islamic/Arabic word for not kosher. It was a pun I used when I typed about Orthodox Jewish men. Again, your stupidity and humorlessness cannot comprehend things like this.

    I am not Jewish. I do like lox, bagels and cream cheese with onions though.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  225. @Bliss

    I know about the RCC and Japan. The Japanese turned out to be right.

  226. Anon[291] • Disclaimer says:
    @Talha

    A “Christian background” is a pretty doubtful thing; by arguable definition it could cover pretty much everybody in the US except the Jews.

  227. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    I’ve read other articles that China will publish its own Bible, a Chinese bible, in keeping with their socialist values. It looks like they are Sinoizing Christianity. What’s your opinion about this? It seems they want “Chinese Christianity.”

    If you know the history of your church you must know that schisms have happened before. If you can have a Roman Church (RCC), a Greek Church (Orthodox), a German Church (Protestant) then why not a Chinese Church?

    Btw, considering how important reverence for ancestors is in Chinese culture we can expect the state sanctioned Chinese Church to create a ritual that posthumously baptizes dead ancestors and saves them from Hell.

    As for “socialist values” they are precisely the values of the first Christians, who were following the sermons of Jesus himself.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  228. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    The Japanese are the only intelligent Asians. Yet, they are inferior to Caucasians.

    How is that possible? Their IQ is higher than that of caucasians. Try to be consistent in your arguments.

    Btw, if the Japanese are the only intelligent Asians and they are the least Christian of all asians what conclusions do you draw from that?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  229. @attilathehen

    Actually, Muslim medicine (Ibn Sana, called Avicenna in the West), Muslim arithmetic, and Muslim literature (the Layla-Menoun poems, which influenced Courtly Love from Arthurian legends to Romeo and Juliet, and beyond) were at the forefront of Medieval knowledge. Western texts relied on them as prized sources.

    Are the people there now functioning on this level? Why no, they aren’t: Ibn Sana’s medieval writings on female health are way more advanced than the horrible things that are bring done to girls and the lack of proper health care for pregnant women and new mothers. But there is no reason why they couldn’t achieve their former level of civilization and advance still more, if this is solely a genetic issue. Afghanistan in the ’70s was a modern place–look up the pictures.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  230. @attilathehen

    FROM St. Augustine’s De Doctrina Christiana (On Christian Doctrine), 40 (60, 61)

    Chapter 40.—Whatever Has Been Rightly Said by the Heathen, We Must Appropriate to Our Uses.

    60. Moreover, if those who are called philosophers, and especially the Platonists, have said aught that is true and in harmony with our faith, we are not only not to shrink from it, but to claim it for our own use from those who have unlawful possession of it. For, as the Egyptians had not only the idols and heavy burdens which the people of Israel hated and fled from, but also vessels and ornaments of gold and silver, and garments, which the same people when going out of Egypt appropriated to themselves, designing them for a better use, not doing this on their own authority, but by the command of God, the Egyptians themselves, in their ignorance, providing them with things which they themselves were not making a good use of; in the same way all branches of heathen learning have not only false and superstitious fancies and heavy burdens of unnecessary toil, which every one of us, when going out under the leadership of Christ from the fellowship of the heathen, ought to abhor and avoid; but they contain also liberal instruction which is better adapted to the use of the truth, and some most excellent precepts of morality; and some truths in regard even to the worship of the One God are found among them. Now these are, so to speak, their gold and silver, which they did not create themselves, but dug out of the mines of God’s providence which are everywhere scattered abroad, and are perversely and unlawfully prostituting to the worship of devils. These, therefore, the Christian, when he separates himself in spirit from the miserable fellowship of these men, ought to take away from them, and to devote to their proper use in preaching the gospel. Their garments, also,—that is, human institutions such as are adapted to that intercourse with men which is indispensable in this life,—we must take and turn to a Christian use.

  231. KenH says:
    @Talha

    Whatever their faults, I think Muslims take their religion and its doctrines far more seriously than do Christians today, at least generally speaking. So I don’t think they’d be so good natured about conversion attempts nor are they ripe for conversion.

    You might want to check that link because if it contains information on where Islam’s converts are coming from it just talks about buyer’s remorse.

    • Replies: @Talha
  232. @Bliss

    The reason the Japanese are a modern nation is because the American Captain Matthew Perry overthrew the shogunate and forced the Japanese to Westernize. It was known in the West that the Japanese were the only intelligent Asians. They copied our inventions. They did not invent anything. If this had not happened, Japan would still be a rice paddy country.

    Now, the Jesuits tried to convert the Japanese. Of course, since I don’t accept black/Asians in my church, it is good they are not RCC. They can be Christian, but they would have to have their own churches. Their souls cannot comprehend the transcendent like a Western soul, but they have possibilities. This is up to them.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  233. @Bliss

    I have already stated that Asians must have their own churches. Focus when you are reading my comments. I have no interest in them and do not want them in the West.

    As to “socialist values.” This is wrong. Jesus did not preach socialism as is taught and believed today. His communal values were for the priesthood and the family. Also, do you know the parable of the talents? Profit is allowed. Marxism, which is the real name for socialism, hates profits. Also, 2 THESSALONIANS 3:10 states if a person does not work they shall not eat. Marxism is about “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.” This does not work. The Pilgrims tried this.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @EliteCommInc.
  234. @Rosamond Vincy

    When the Muslims first conquered North Africa and the Middle East, they were Caucasians and had IQs of 90+. There were Muslims who could produce scientific and literary books. However, as black slavery was introduced with concubinage and polygamy, the miscegenation destroyed IQs. The average North African IQ today is 84. Their genetic material is worthless. As to Afghanistan, those 1970s pictures you see are from a tiny, elite minority. The average Afghani IQ is 84. They are an Asiatic people. So, again, Asians are a second tier race. Also, first cousin marriage destroyed IQ. This woman Phyllis Chesler, knows the truth about Afghanistan. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phyllis_Chesler

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  235. @attilathehen

    As I said people can create whatever design they want about their faith in Christ —

    Just know that in my view if it does not comport with scripture whether I am a laggard, a bum, a worthless miscreant —

    Christ isn’t rewarding people based on IQ, skin color, class, status, education, income or what continent they live on — the message of Christ is for believers whatever their IQ, skin color, income, or the sophistication of their toilet. Now if you can indicate a scripture that makes that case, you are welcome to do so. As people we desire all manner of unique castes and groups of our liking — bad news for those that think such castes are requirements or are benefits to the kingdom —

    That does not appear to be the case. Christ isn’t going say,

    “ok whites, you have the highest kingdom you first.” I don’t mind having this conversation for fun — but it’s just fun. Salivation is not about IQ, it’s not even about whether one is or was a criminal — it simply does not work that way. It really stumbles many people that think a life in christ is works. When in facts, it’s faith which is demonstrated by one works.

    One can what they desire and still be out of line with Christ. I am not the least bit phased by your views. It’s just they have no value being a believer in christ.

  236. @attilathehen

    If Christ cares so much about IQ, why didn’t He come to ancient Babylon or Egypt, both of which had advanced civilizations? Why come to people in an occupied country, people whose glory days were a) behind them, and b) not so glorious, consisting of a long line of dysfunctional families, as their own Holy Books make clear?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  237. dfordoom says: • Website
    @attilathehen

    I heard some podcast a couple of weeks ago that the Chinese do not trust the RCC because they see it as a globalizing institution which will destroy their homogeneous country. I have to agree with the Chinese on this point.

    Yes, the Chinese are absolutely correct. The RCC is a globalizing institution which has already helped to destroy the West. At this point in time the RCC is a major force for evil in the world.

    Tragically, Christianity in general is now mostly a force for evil. The RCC is very bad but mostly the Protestants are even worse.

    Christianity today is a religion for women, homosexuals and cucks.

  238. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I’m not a big admirer of Pope Francis or post-Vatican II guitar masses, but the Church has withstood the current events and fads of many eras.

    It’s no longer a question of whether the Church can survive. It will survive, and it will become just another secular liberal SJW-dominated NGO working for the destruction of civilisation.

    The question now is whether western civilisation would have a better chance of survival if the Church didn’t survive. It may well be that the sooner Christianity disappears the better.

    The Church is a bit like “conservative” political parties, which need to die in order to allow something more positive to emerge. A religious revival is needed in the West but it can only happen if the established churches die.

  239. dfordoom says: • Website
    @attilathehen

    The Church cannot withstand low IQ.

    Nonsense. Low IQ and/or uneducated people are not the ones who do the most harm. It’s the high IQ idiots you have to worry about – they’re the ones who believe the crazy civilisation-destroying ideas (the ideas so crazy that only intellectuals can be persuaded to believe them), they’re the ones who have undermined religion.

    • Agree: Talha
    • Replies: @attilathehen
  240. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    It is entirely possible to loyal to nation, state and ethnicity without violating one’s faith as established by Christ,

    It isn’t really. It’s like having dual citizenship – at some point you’re going to betray one of the two nations of which you’re a citizen.

  241. @dfordoom

    as i stated,

    it is entirely possible, unless there is a conflict in the positions then faith must take precedents.

    Having two masters is not the case, serve god always, serve state when there is no conflict in serving both.

    Christ nor the apostles ever demanded that christians leave service of state including the military —-

    That is why I made it a point to note immigration. Nothing in the US immigration laws prevent christians from supporting others in other states. Being a christian in this instance would not be cause to break immigration laws.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  242. @dfordoom

    I am unfamiliar with this ethic anywhere in scripture.

    But I agree, the church will not remain regardless of the secular worlds peculiarities and assaults.

  243. @dfordoom

    Correct. A Roman Catholic’s first allegiance is always to Rome and the pope. This problem came up when John F. Kennedy ran for the presidency. He put the USA above Rome. The RCC does not like nationalism.

  244. @Rosamond Vincy

    These are mysteries which will be explained to us when we die. You mentioned St. Augustine. When he lived, Egypt was already ancient (it was ancient when Jesus lived). The population was still Caucasian with a good IQ. He would have known about the greatness of Egypt. He probably knew about India. Now 1600 years later, we see to what primitive levels Egypt and India have been reduced. This was caused by IQ loss through miscegenation.

    What “possessed” God to create great races like the ancient Egyptians and Indian Aryans, but at the same time make 2 inferior races – blacks/Asians? These ancients had marvelous technologies which we cannot figure out today. We are also advanced, but it took thousands of years to get back to our level. I rarely do the “what if (insert what you like to have been able to change here), but what if the ancient Egyptians and ancient Indian Aryans had preserved themselves? What “possessed” God to chose the ancient Hebrews (present day Jews are not related to them) for His new mission? I do not know. But I want answers to these questions after I die.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Rosamond Vincy
  245. @dfordoom

    I did not state only high IQ people. I said an IQ of 90+ is needed for a people, country to maintain a functioning society and country. This IQ range covers common sense, wisdom, and intelligence. The 2 most evil, oxymoronic, civilization destroying ideas are: universal brotherhood and universal church. The problem today is the cowardly cucks who cannot see this and will not fight the invasion of the West. I gave examples of low IQ nations: Pakistan (avg. IQ 84); Haiti (avg. IQ 67); El Salvador (avg. IQ 80). These are high crime, squalid countries, with IQs of less than 90.

  246. Correction:

    I am unfamiliar with this ethic anywhere in scripture.

    But I agree, the church will remain regardless of the secular worlds peculiarities and assaults

  247. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    It was known in the West that the Japanese were the only intelligent Asians. They copied our inventions. They did not invent anything. If this had not happened, Japan would still be a rice paddy country.

    You are such a stupid yet pretentious ignoramus. You keep insisting that Japanese are the only intelligent asians, completely blind to both historical and current reality. The traditional Japanese culture is mostly derived from other Asian nations: from China primarily, and from India (via China). For example: Confucianism came to Japan from China, Buddhism from India via China (ditto for nonviolent martial arts), and even the gods and goddesses of Shintoism, the native religion of Japan, are largely of Indian origin. Japan was a marginal nation in the long history of Asia until recently.

    And you didn’t answer my question: Since IQ explains both the biological and spiritual worlds to your twisted little mind does that not make you both biologically and spiritually inferior to East Asians and Jews?

    Their souls cannot comprehend the transcendent like a Western soul

    You ridiculous numbskull, as if you have the slightest clue about transcendence. You are hopelessly trapped in the material and animalistic world. You claim to be a Christian but your racist rants have exactly zero to do with the Gospel of Jesus. If there is a Hell that’s where you are heading.

  248. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    it is entirely possible, unless there is a conflict in the positions then faith must take precedents.

    In which case, from the point of view of a nationalist, the Christian becomes a traitor to the nation. Or becomes a traitor to his ethnic group. You can’t be a nationalist and a universalist.

    Nationalism in order to make sense has to be fundamentally opposed to universalism. You can’t be a Christian and a nationalist.

    Christian universalism worked quite well and was generally a good thing in the Middle Ages, when nations were seen as merely component parts of Christendom. The Reformation wrecked all that.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  249. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    What “possessed” God to create great races like the ancient Egyptians and Indian Aryans, but at the same time make 2 inferior races – blacks/Asians?

    Lol. Funny to see such a silly ignorant person questioning God’s handiwork. I doubt your IQ is 90+ as you boast.

    Ancient Egypt was an african civilization and Ancient India was asian/indian. Why don’t you explain to us why Northern Europeans could never create a civilization the equivalent of Egypt and India? Or of Sumer and Babylon? Or of China? Or of Ethiopia and Nubia? Or of Olmec and Maya? Etc, etc

    The Great Sphinx of Egypt is about 4500 years old, the giant Olmec head from the east coast of Mexico could be upto 3500 years old. The Olmec was the mother civilization of the Americas.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  250. @dfordoom

    Again, the question (per CS Lewis) is not whether it is good for civilization but whether it is true.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  251. @dfordoom

    Well, there you and Jesus agree:

    “No one can serve two masters. He will either hate one and love the other, or be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.”

    Which do you intend to serve?

    I’m all for patriotism; I’ve had three generations of my family in the military. But God is eternal; countries are not. Both ancient history and the events of our own lifetimes tell us that. Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori, but giving up your soul is quite another thing.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  252. @attilathehen

    You want answers from God? He may have some questions for you. First off: when you speak this prayer to yourself, “O God, I thank you that I am not low IQ like the rest of humanity—Haitians, Pakistani, Salvadorans—or even like these cucks who don’t share my opinions,” what makes you sure you will go home justified?

    BTW, there’s an Orthodox Church in my neighborhood, and it has a soup kitchen that serves people of every possible demographic. The Bishop has never turned anyone away for being low IQ.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  253. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    if a person does not work they shall not eat.

    That is actually a socialist principle: everyone has a job to do. It is under capitalism that you find the idle eaters: the idle rich who consume far more than they need, and the idle poor who are left unemployed to keep wages down and profits up.

    Jesus did not preach socialism

    Blessed are the poor (Matthew 5:3)

    Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” (Matthew 19:21)

    Then Jesus said to his disciples: I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God. (Matthew 19:23-24)

    But people who long to be rich fall into temptation and are trapped by many foolish and harmful desires that plunge them into ruin and destruction. For the love of money is the root of all kinds of evil. And some people, craving money, have wandered from the true faith and pierced themselves with many sorrows. (1 Timothy 6:9-10)

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @attilathehen
  254. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Again, the question (per CS Lewis) is not whether it is good for civilization but whether it is true.

    If you’re a believer, perhaps. I’m not. I admit that I have a purely instrumental view of religion. If a religion is good for civilisation I’m in favour of it. If a religion is bad for civilisation I’d prefer that religion to die. On the whole I’m in favour of religion but I couldn’t care less whether it’s true or not.

  255. @dfordoom

    Let’s get something clear as this issue of universal church is often used as excuse to violate immigration laws among others,

    There are times when the believer will have to disagree some national policy.

    1. homosexual marriage
    2. killing children in the womb
    4. support for pornography
    5. legalizing prostitution

    That’s just a quick list. All of the above are forbidden by faith and practice for those who adhere to a scripture based understanding of Christ. If the state demanded my support for or participation in any of the above, I would have to say “no”. If the state manufactured a case for war, I would have to say, “no” (bearing false witness), There are aspects of the state which clearly violate faith. Unless I am obligated to participate in them, there is no conflict in supporting the state. US immigration laws also a universal practice do in any manner violate scripture and as such I am obliged to obey them and support them. I might give a glass of water or feed one who is here illegally, in some emergency. But supporting violating immigration laws are out of the question. Because there is no conflict between state and faith. When the state demands that a christian organization or person demands they do something forbidden by God — they will have to decide whom to obey. The cases for invading Iraq were far outside the scope of biblical warrant — every argument failed the test of scripture. I was called a traitor for not supporting that invasion and doubting the veracity of invading Afghanistan.

    The mammon play is oft abused. The apostle Paul did not abandon his Roman nationality. In fact, he used his nationality to his stead when arrested. His admonition about obeying authority was limited to contradictions in faith. A person can be a loyal citizen and be loyal to God. The mammon reference is to whether Faith comes before the purpose. That ia all that scripture means. It is not against rich people, it is not against wealth — it’s that one’s desire for wealth comes second to faith in christ.

    In the discussion we are having about IQ, ethnicity, nationality, the challenge is always what supersedes one’s desire. My ethnicity and nationality come second to faith in Christ –when in conflict.

    At no time did Christ or the Apostles attempt to dismantlement, get rid or decry the state. The state is a tool of Christ, and they are obliged to play along, until said game calls for disobeying Christ. Now scripture makes it clear — eventually the state will demand loyalty to it above Christ and at that point I will have to sever my loyalty – come what may. But until then –

    loyalty to state and faith are possible with very little effort in the US, well it’s requiring more effort every year.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  256. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I’m all for patriotism; I’ve had three generations of my family in the military. But God is eternal; countries are not.

    That’s fine. I can respect someone who makes that choice, as long as they’re honest enough (which you seem to be) to admit that having made that choice they can’t call themselves nationalists. If you’re a nationalist you must put the interests of the nation first.

    I prefer to put nation first, but that’s just me.

  257. @Bliss

    Just a note to those making claims about god and mammon and applying the same to national loyalty.

    The scripture oft referenced is,

    “No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.”

    It simply means that the first commandment reigns supreme –

    “I am the lord your hod, thou will have no other gods before.”

    It doesn’t matter whether that which comes before God is a state, a friend, a wife ethnicity or money.

  258. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Bliss

    if a person does not work they shall not eat.

    That is actually a socialist principle: everyone has a job to do. It is under capitalism that you find the idle eaters: the idle rich who consume far more than they need, and the idle poor who are left unemployed to keep wages down and profits up.

    Oddly enough in the very religious very Christian Middle Ages no-one believed in that principle. It was accepted that some people were not required to work. They had more important social duties – the nobility had a duty to render military service and the clergy had a duty to pray. These were considered to be at least as important as working. Until well into the 20th century most members of the aristocracy considered work (quite rightly) to be degrading.

    As Aristotle said, “All paid jobs absorb and degrade the mind.”

  259. @attilathehen

    I will gladly perhaps foolishly take this on. that is what scripture says. And as someone who is not officially working, I have to battle this out personally. I think that scripture is on point. when i was terminated back in 2—, having nothing to do with performance, drugs, or any of the peculiar issues people get terminated for — it had nothing to do with work. I didn’t ho on unemployment, for if i had it would mean, that what occurred was condoned by me — so i sought work elsewhere as well as continued to promote my own business.

    Nor did I apply for any other forms of welfare and haven’t – ever. That scripture means a lot to me for very personal reasons. But your contention that it has anything to so with IQ, ethnicity, or nationality or any other links to faith are just opinions, they are not scriptural in any way. I love work, and my work ethic exceeded anyone’s in my dept. Mostly likely because I am single and had no life. I made a conscious choice not to permit anyone to push me back from my educational attainments – earned. I had cleaned tables, mopped floors, done construction, washed dishes . . all of the manual labor stuff one does in this life. But I will take and do the work, for which i have paid a heavy price to gain in my field and I have no intention of bowing to the politics of rich or poor, heathens or Christians, Hollywood or DC games or the power of the police by going backwards — if that means I end up on the street — so be it.

    If that means dealing with silliness — well so be it.

    Since I am not taking any bread from the state or the church — I am quite content not to allow whatever personal guilt or embarrassment get in the way of advocacy for issues clearly unsupported by faith and practice. But when one has to resort to just personal attacks – it’s a clear they have no more rational to justify their position.

    But you may continue to dance as you around not having a single line of scripture to support your arguments.

  260. Suppose the Catholic faith decides tomorrow that same sex marriage is condoned by God or that said behavior is acceptable and ordained by God,

    I would have to reject the notion with the same vigor as before they made the claim.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    , @attilathehen
  261. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    Suppose the Catholic faith decides tomorrow that same sex marriage is condoned by God or that said behavior is acceptable and ordained by God,

    I would have to reject the notion with the same vigor as before they made the claim.

    Churches, like nations, can become corrupted and evil. That poses a problem for both nationalists and Christians. Does a nationalist continue to serve a state that has become evil (as is the case with every state in the western world at the moment)? Does a Christian continue to serve a church that has become evil (which means most of the mainstream churches today)?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  262. @EliteCommInc.

    Exactly. Render until Caesar what is Caesar’s….

    Does this cause conflicts in terms of abortion, just vs. unjust wars, etc.? Of course it does. There have always been places or periods of history when it was more difficult to reconcile obeying both the Church and the government. A Christian in 1950s America would find it relatively easy to obey both; a Christian in 2nd century Roman territory or 1950s Russia, not so much. We might prefer to get to Heaven by living a moral but conventional life, as opposed to the Glorious Deaths featured on holy cards, but it is not up to us to decide what trials we will face.

    • Replies: @Talha
  263. @Bliss

    So now you’re defending East Asians and Jews as superior? Who, what are you??? You were riffing for Islam before. Are you a Caucasian Christian now? Again, you do not understand history, biology, IQ. Over thousands of years culture and races will have exchanges. But, at this point in time, 2018, we can see which cultures are successful. The Japanese are superior to the Chinese. We can see this today. Japan may be been marginal in the past, but today it is at the top. Asians can only copy. They do not invent. The Japanese were able to modernize quickly because they adapt very easily to new things. India, China have peaked and are declining. They don’t have the IQ.

    Today’s Jews are not the smartest tribe and never were. Israeli Jews have an IQ of 93. Ashkenazi Jews average at 105. But there are not that many of them and they had nothing to do with the development of Western civilization. Here’s a reading assignment for you. Make sure you have dictionary next to you: Ricardo Duchesne – The Uniqueness of Western Civilization.

    You can’t deal with biological reality and you now hope hell will be my home. State your beliefs consistently.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  264. @Bliss

    This is not socialism you twit. This is a person voluntarily giving up their possessions. Jesus did not command people to take stuff from others. Marxism/socialism confiscates property and possessions.

    The church also teaches that just because a person is poor they do not automatically go to heaven. It is the state of your soul, whether you are in sin or not that determines your entry to heaven.

    “Money is the root of all kinds of evil” It doesn’t state money is the root of ALL EVIL. There is nothing wrong with having money as long as it does not corrupt you.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  265. @EliteCommInc.

    You cannot fight against same sex marriage using only religion. I do not need religion to argue against gay marriage, polygamy, most divorce and most abortion. I can base my arguments against these things on natural law. There is an English RCC cuck Jacob Rees Mogg who bases his arguments on gay marriage on the RCC. What if a person is not RCC, or an atheist? How do you argue against this? Homosexuality goes against the biological imperative of procreating. If a person says they are homo, they are evolutionary defects and need to be separated.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  266. @Bliss

    Have you heard of DNA testing? It’s been done and the ancient Egyptians were Caucasians. It’s been done on India and it turns out Aryans invaded Asian India and created the caste system to preserve their Aryan DNA.

    The Sphinx is not the head of a black man. His nose was not cut off because they thought it was black. When the Muslims took over Egypt, they started to destroy the past artifacts. They Sphinx was too big for them to destroy. There are present day Egyptian Muslims who have spoken about blowing up the Sphinx and Pyramids. This happened in Palmyra when ISIS took control of the city and began destroying ancient temples. Do you remember this?

    China and Nubia never had great empires. These countries waxed and waned but did not produce the modern world or contribute anything to it. What did Northern Europeans create? How about the English? Have you ever heard of the British Empire?

    As to the Olmec head. The Olmecs are not the civilization of the Americas. I have been reading books and articles and there is a theory that the ancient Egyptians may have traveled to Mexico and taught the natives pyramid building. Outside of Egypt, only southern Mexico and Central America have sophisticated pyramids. There were some blacks in Egypt and maybe one went on an expedition. The Olmec head dates back to about 1200 B.C. , so again some trans-Atlantic exchange could have occurred. This Olmec civilization was tiny and is still a mystery. There will always be exchanges like this life. We are dealing with thousands of years of history. Much will remain a mystery to us.

    Once again, what are you?

    • Replies: @Bliss
  267. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Just want to say, it’s been a pleasure reading the exchange between you dfordoom and Elitecomm. It makes me realize how much of a general framework is common between traditional religious folks despite a wide bridge on theological positions.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  268. Talha says:
    @KenH

    I believe Muslims take their religion more seriously in general too – this is a gift from God – we cannot attribute this to ourselves. As to the details…

    The link I posted was simply describing Buyer’s Remorse – it seems Christians that are inviting Muslims over assuming they will convert are either:
    1) Not serious readers of history or…
    2) Actually believe their own propaganda about the religion and figure there’s no way anyone can believe in some desert-born death cult and so converting them will be a cake walk

    The actual survey I was thinking of was this one by Pew:
    “In other words, Christianity as a whole loses more people than it gains from religious switching (conversions in both directions) in the U.S., while the net effect on Islam in America is a wash.”

    http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/01/26/the-share-of-americans-who-leave-islam-is-offset-by-those-who-become-muslim/

    About 1/4 of Muslims are apostating and most are going atheist or unknown:

    The majority of converts into Islam are Christians by far:

    In my experience (from talking to them or listening to lectures or interviews), the kind of Christians that convert to Islam are generally three:
    1) Nominal Christians (like the brother from Polish heritage that I spoke to last night) that were cultural Christians and went searching all over the place until settling on Islam
    2) Serious Christians that just can’t deal with the Trinity but don’t want to lose Jesus (pbuh)
    3) Christians tired of Christian churches making too many compromises with modern culture

    Pew plots out the reported reasons thusly:

    We are getting good, serious people; the Polish brother I mentioned (is in my tariqah) has a family and on three kids and will likely have one more. My wife is a convert and wrapping up her studies for and Alimah (female scholar) degree in the Hanafi school.

    Unfortunately, the people leaving Islam are leaving because they don’t like traditional positions (if they did, they likely wouldn’t have left) – many become atheist and hyper-liberals (maybe to make up for lost time). In essence, we are not sending you our best – the West is simply adding detritus (just from different ethnic backgrounds than its own). Peruse their views if you think I am making this stuff up:

    https://www.exmna.org/

    Fairly sure in the near future people will be seeing Muslim-sounding names gracing news about pornography – it’s only a matter of time.

    My apologies if that helps.

    Peace.

  269. if we were talking about secular life, I absolutely agree. The reasons to reject same sex relations and marriage of the same has plenty of sound nonspiritual reasons — on that we agree.

    However, we are not talking secular life. We are talking about life as people of faith and in that regard, I have no intention of dismissing scripture — which is pertinent and mandatory. And because your arguments are pointedly toward the expression of faith in Christ — scripture to faith regardless of the congregation or denomination — is relevant.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  270. @dfordoom

    Those are the tough questions. I think there may on occasion be gray areas. In all cases, the question of whom to obey should be on the side of faith in Christ.

    But one can be faithful to Christ and still serve the state. It is my intent to get back in the classroom officially and i would no more give up my faith now than I did previously. But navigating the tricky polity of liberal ideology is tough —

    Wrong verses God — I don’t think there’s any choice. Though, how to discern that may be a very very tough row. My God who thirsts for justice allows unjust events — I have no answers for why that is except as test of faith and testament. I have to admit that my bitterness has gotten the best of me ocer the events of 2xxx —

    But again, it is entirely possible to be faithful in Christ and still be a loyal member of the state.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  271. @EliteCommInc.

    The present and future is: biology first, beliefs second. You are free to believe that the communion wafer helps people. I know it does not because I can point to specific RCC countries that have not been improved by it. It can help Caucasians. I know what the Bible says and I know it does not mention IQ. It is a book that deals with the spiritual. Today we must deal with biology. The spiritual state comes from biology. The RCC is gone because of blacks/Asians. The Orthodox church will be the new church of the West and for Western people.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  272. @Rosamond Vincy

    Again, we will not know anything until we die. I am grateful I was not born a low IQ black/Asian. The fact that we can have an exchange like this is proof of how good it is to have an IQ of 90+. Exchanges like these are not possible with people of 89 or less IQ. Plus, very few can live moral lives. I don’t know what will happen to me after I die. We see through a glass darkly on earth. All I know is that when the realization of IQ and its relation to race, morality all came together, I could never look at the Bible the same way. I realized that the fact I was born a Western Christian woman is the ultimate prize on earth.

    As to that church by you, they are free to feed whomever they want to feed. Just remember, if the low IQers become very numerous, the neighborhood will change for the worse.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  273. dfordoom says: • Website
    @attilathehen

    You cannot fight against same sex marriage using only religion. I do not need religion to argue against gay marriage, polygamy, most divorce and most abortion. I can base my arguments against these things on natural law.

    On that point I agree with you. Some things are so clearly and obviously unnatural and unhealthy and socially destructive that you don’t need to be religious to oppose them. Basing your arguments on these subjects on religion is a guaranteed way to lose.

  274. @attilathehen

    At least the Bishop won’t have to hear God saying:

    Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
    42
    k For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink,
    43
    a stranger and you gave me no welcome, naked and you gave me no clothing, ill and in prison, and you did not care for me.’
    44
    * Then they will answer and say, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’
    45
    He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’

    You may argue that this means helping only other Christians, or even only other white Christians. It doesn’t. What do you think the parable of the Good Samaritan is about? What about the Roman Centurion with the sick servant? What about the Canaanite woman whose daughter was possessed by the demon? What about St. Paul, a Pharisee and rabid persecutor of Christians, until God used physical blindness to free him of his spiritual blindness?

    As St. Peter said:

    34In truth, I see that God shows no partiality.j
    35
    Rather, in every nation whoever fears him and acts uprightly is acceptable to him.

    What Bible are you reading? For all I know, you may actually treat people more kindly than I do, for I am constantly struggling with anger and impatience, but your ideals seem very strange to me.

  275. @attilathehen

    There’s only one response to this for any believer . . . Christ as savior first in all things . . . that demands belief over biology in all things. Scripture neither old or new makes any note of biology, IQ, or ethnicity over belief.

    Your created standard for faith as a christian in any denomination is not something I could support based on the demands of Christ and the apostles.

    As for communion it is expressly for spiritual wellness. It has nothing to do with IQ, ethnicity or skin color . . .

  276. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    But again, it is entirely possible to be faithful in Christ and still be a loyal member of the state.

    The problem there is that the state increasingly does not see it that way. In most western countries today the state regards Christians as being either potentially or actually enemies of the state.

    Within the next decade or so I suspect that it will have become entirely impossible to be loyal to both Christ and the state. The state is going to make sure that happens.

  277. @dfordoom

    This has already happened. There is no such thing as the “state.” A state is composed of people, groups with interests. A “state” is not non-anthropomorphic. It is not made of AI, computers. It is composed of human beings. What kind of people compose the “state?” This is the question. Only Caucasians (Christian, neopagan or nonbelievers) can compose the states of the West. Biology first, beliefs second. Rosamund and Elite cannot deal with these new realities.

  278. @dfordoom

    The advent of requiring businesses of a christian ethic to serve a ceremony that Christians cannot celebrate based on their belief and practice of more than 2000 years, may very well be the beginning of the end — I don’t think so, but maybe. It is a sign of what life when Christ comes become a complete anathema to the population. when the supreme court allowed itself to be hoodwinked into the constitutionality of murder, the shift was made. i am not sure how much more destitute a state can be once it legalizes killing children, at will.

    In the US, christians are part of that process and there’s no reason for them to sit back and cower — they are entitled and should participate in the process of attending to governance.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  279. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    i am not sure how much more destitute a state can be once it legalizes killing children, at will.

    And it’s going to get worse. Much worse. More and more the state is going to (quite deliberately) put Christians in positions where they will have to choose. The objective is to break Christianity once and for all, and break it so completely that no revival will ever be possible.

  280. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    Only Caucasians (Christian, neopagan or nonbelievers) can compose the states of the West. Biology first, beliefs second. Rosamund and Elite cannot deal with these new realities.

    Why do you even call yourself a Christian, when you have firmly chosen Body over God?

    No one can serve two masters. (Matthew 6:24)

    seek first the Kingdom of God (Matthew 6:33)

    The Kingdom of God is within you (Luke 17:21)

    Seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. (Matthew 7:7)

    Either we continue to identify with our short-lived animal bodies, leather bags filled with repulsive organs and a pound or two of food slowly turning to shit, or we strive to identify with the eternal God within which is our true identity. This is the ultimate Either-Or situation.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  281. @attilathehen

    Disagreement based on the call of Christ as outlined in depth in scripture, makes rejecting your prescription is a must for me.

    The only response I have is that your view openly contradicts that of Christ and as such, I cannot endorse or agree with it. Christ gave up his biology as sacrifice for the faith. How people to choose to respond to that is a matter of choice. I have made mine.

  282. @attilathehen

    “Biology first, beliefs second.” – you

    “…nothing will be impossible for God.” – Gospel according to Luke

    Think I’ll go with Luke on this one.

  283. @attilathehen

    Disagreement based on the call of Christ as outlined in depth in scripture, makes rejecting your prescription is a must for me.

    The only response I have is that your view openly contradicts that of Christ and as such, I cannot endorse or agree with it. Christ gave up his biology as sacrifice for the faith. How people to choose to respond to that is a matter of choice. I have made mine.

    Biology first has no scriptural support.

    (excuse the double post unintentional)

    • Replies: @Talha
  284. @dfordoom

    Nothing is new under the sun.

    The Romans tried it. The Nazis tried it. The Soviets tried it.

    We can’t always control what the government does, but we can control what we, as individuals, do.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  285. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Biology first has no scriptural support.

    Of course not, it is predicated on a materialist cosmology (if it can be termed that) with Christianity shoe-horned in to nostalgic reasons. I don’t know why you and Rosamond are taking her so seriously – maybe due to a feeling that, as a fellow believer in Christ you can disabuse her of certain ideas. A valiant and sincere effort, of course.

    The issue is, once one has very marginal outlier beliefs and is 100% invested in them, there’s not much one can do. I remember coming across people at UCLA from the Five-percent nation (an offshoot of the NOI) that believed that the Black man was the personification of God on earth. They preach that – well, here are their beliefs:
    “That the Blackman is GOD and his proper name is ALLAH (Arm, Leg, Leg, Arm, Head).”

    https://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5614846

    Within five minutes of conversation – you realized that you were not dealing with someone that one could agree on baseline assumptions with which to carry on further conversation. They would also cite their opinion on anything as if it was fact without any reference, like “When the Muslims took over Egypt, they started to destroy the past artifacts.” or have theories kind of like this guy:

    https://www.forbes.com/sites/kristinakillgrove/2015/11/05/archaeologists-to-ben-carson-ancient-egyptians-wrote-down-why-the-pyramids-were-built/#2af39e7668a4

    What I’m seeing on this thread looks like a White version of “We wuz kangz”.

    Actually, I remember the specific moment when I fully stopped taking TheHen seriously. Another poster named Truth asked her something like; if it could be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that Jesus Christ (pbuh) was Black or had a very large Black heritage, would she remain Christian?

    She replied in the negative – that’s really all one needs to know.

    As to the general theme; unfortunately, materialism has influenced many of the world’s religions, which are in essence materially transcendent value-systems. This will not end well.

    “And be not conformed to this world…”

    Peace.

  286. @Bliss

    One more time, who, what are you? Define yourself. Your comments are all over the place.

  287. @Talha

    I don’t know why you and Rosamond are taking her so seriously

    I don’t want people to (mis)attribute her distorted ideas to Christianity, and drive others away from it.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  288. @Talha

    I think I remain a tad bemused bu the advocacy as I noted from the start. Provocative — how serious , I am not convinced. However, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to express my view and why I hold it. The Catholic faith is predicated on scripture.

    I simply would that one making arguments based on such a foundation demonstrate that said arguments are predicated on the book of faith, either by the unique faith or the scripture upon which said faith and practice is built on.

    I am unfamiliar with the organisation you reference, but on Christ and what he taught, my expectation is always that one can point to the source in scripture in the “proper” context to advance their claim.

    Scripture notes,

    “The Lord’s word will not return unto him void.” Isaiah 55: 11-12
    Biblegateay and Biblehub

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  289. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Again, a good and sincere desire, but lady – I’m a Muslim and I know better than that. Maybe it’s because I’m a Muslim and we already have a deep respect for the Son of Mary (pbuh) that we would never lay any of this nonsense at his blessed feet.

    My guess is that most people who are intelligent and have a rudimentary knowledge of the subject know the difference between normative Christianity and the White version of the NOI. Which is why I keep pressing her to point out any half-serious theologian or nominal church body that espouse the same views. It’s actually the same respect I accord to other religions (that they have a normative tradition or traditions) that I ask of others to grant to Islam and not judge it by extreme offshoots (like the NOI or Five-percent nation or Daesh). I think most people get that idea of “normative” principles; religions to varying degree are built upon certain organic (one may say democratic) foundations where majoritarian views bubble up to the top. There might be times of crisis or extremism, but usually these are a catalyst for mitigating influences; sometimes self-reflection or even people voting with their feet and leaving towards something that then becomes the normative standard.

    For instance, liberal churches all over the place are losing numbers:
    “These churches are dying off at a very quick pace…But much of it has also been driven by conversion: In 2014, the Pew Research Center found that 1.7 peopled converted away from mainline Protestant groups for every one convert in, while evangelical Protestants had 1.2 people convert in for every leaver.”

    https://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/7/14/15959682/evangelical-mainline-voting-patterns-trump

    Practically no one has the views she presents, not even the Orthodox churches she is championing:
    “The First Black Orthodox Priest in America…The subject is Fr Raphael Morgan, the first black Orthodox priest in America….The following summer, in 1907, Morgan sailed to Istanbul. He was armed with two letters. One was from the Philadelphia Greek priest, Fr. Demetrios Petrides, who recommended that Morgan be baptized and then ordained an Orthodox priest. There was also a letter from the Philadelphia Greek community, which supported Morgan’s ordination and also said that if he failed to establish a black Orthodox parish, he was welcome to serve as their assistant pastor.

    https://orthodoxhistory.org/2009/07/15/the-first-black-orthodox-priest-in-america/

    As you have pointed out and – I have as well – there is no necessary contradiction between being a universal faith and one that accommodates the cultural prerogatives and affinities of its various peoples. There simply is no need to go to extremes – in fact, going to extremes is likely going to set you up for a big fall.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  290. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    arguments are predicated on the book of faith

    They aren’t – it’s based in materialist understanding and eugenics-as-philosophy. Let it arise and I guarantee you they will treat people (from their own race) with Down’s syndrome and other congenital defects with extreme prejudice – remember; biology first. And if biology comes first and beliefs second, then there is no reason to presume that infanticide is precluded from the equation; it is quite common among mammals actually. For instance, the biological imperative calls for a male lion – once having defeated a rival and taken over his pride to kill off his offspring – obviously, their father was not selectively-fit and thus their genes must be purged so the females can be rapidly brought into estrus to accommodate the fitter genes:

    I am unfamiliar with the organisation you reference

    It’s an offshoot of an offshoot from Islam; the NOI (Nation of Islam) are the guys who used to preach the White man is the devil and all that nonsense. Malcom-X (ra) was with them for a while until he quit and became Sunni and left his racist beliefs behind.

    The Five-percent nation broke off from the NOI and took it one step further; the Black man was god.

    Peace.

  291. @Talha

    I am familiar with the “white man is the devil”

    That rhetoric has more veracity than “black people” being uniquely representatives of God manifest.

    • Replies: @Talha
  292. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Both notions should be rejected into the bin called “nincompoopery”…

    White people come in all sorts – just like everyone else.

    Peace.

  293. @dfordoom

    I think this is an eventuality — Christ says as much.

    However, in the US christians are robust enough to rake that on with their participation as citizens.

  294. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Biology first has no scriptural support.

    Of course not, it is predicated on a materialist cosmology

    That’s amusing considering that you believe in the physical resurrection of your biological body after you die, followed by an eternity of sensory biological pleasures in heaven. How is that not a materialist cosmology?

    Confused much?

    • Replies: @Talha
  295. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Materialists believe in an afterlife?

    • Replies: @Bliss
  296. @Talha

    Malcolm X rejected NOI after he found himself praying besides a non-black Muslim. This is exactly the sort of moment Attila would like to prevent.

    Her proposals would also prevent conversions such as that of Alphone Ratisbonne, a French Jew who accepted a Miraculous Medal and copied the Memorare mostly to get a friend off his back. Ratisbonne had already visited several Roman churches to see the artwork without being spiritually moved, but the next time he accompanied his friend to one, the friend found him weeping, kneeling, and requesting baptism.

    Attila wants Heaven to exclude “not our sort”:

  297. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    The Sphinx is not the head of a black man.

    Yeah right, the Sphinx looks like Hitler’s wet dream.

    China and Nubia never had great empires.

    If you just googled for a few minutes before posting you could avoid making such a fool of yourself. The Tang Dynasty reached as far as Afghanistan.

    Nubia conquered Egypt ~2800 years ago and Nubian Pharaohs ruled Egypt for a while.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-fifth_Dynasty_of_Egypt

    As to the Olmec head……There were some blacks in Egypt and maybe one went on an expedition.

    Maybe one? Lol. I post the picture of one Olmec head and this crackpot concocts this crazy conjecture to explain it away. Hey hen, how the hell could you think that there was only one Olmec head even after reading many “books and articles” on the Olmec civilization? Why do you lie so much? More pics of what looks to be the ruling dynasty of the mother civilization of the Americas:

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  298. @Talha

    “we already have a deep respect for the Son of Mary” Here’s what Muslims think about Mary.

    http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    • Replies: @Talha
  299. @Rosamond Vincy

    I am not driving people away from Christianity. I have consistently stated that there have to be separate churches for blacks/Asians.

    Here’s what’s happening to the USA RCC: https://www.churchmilitant.com/news/article/gallup-poll-u.s.-church-attendance-dropping

    Caucasians want their own churches.

    The fact that you would team up with the Christian heretic Talha reveals a great about you. You are a coward.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  300. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Since the muslim concept of the afterlife involves the resurrection of your material body what should it be called if not materialist?

    • Replies: @Talha
  301. @EliteCommInc.

    You are a perfect example of the cuck RCC male who is destroying the West. The fact that you cannot tell Talha Islam is a Christian heresy shows your cowardly character. I don’t know who taught you your faith, but the RCC (pre-Vatican II) stated Islam is a Christian heresy. Anything religious Talha scribbles about is worthless.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Talha
  302. @Talha

    “She replied in the negative – that’s really all one needs to know.” You, an Asian (avg. Paki IQ 84) and a Christian heretic (inferior to a Caucasian Christian woman), who is not part of the West can blather my statements can pretty much be ignored??? WOW!!! Methinks you thinkest you are equal to a Western Christian male. Get a grip on reality. I will grant you Rosamund and Elite are total cucks, but remember your low caste place.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  303. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Materialism: the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe, and all phenomena, including those of mind, as due to material agencies.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/materialism

    We don’t see a difference in recognizing a physical aspect (as opposed to it being a dream) to contingent reality either before or after death – in whatever modality it occurs.

    If you think that’s makes Islam a materialist philosophy, good for you.

    I personally think it’s great that some people think the ideal afterlife is is a dream-form or as a eunuch hermit stick in a cave without food forever. Sounds cool, but not for us, but knock yourself out.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  304. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    This is not socialism you twit.

    What is it nitwit, capitalism? Jesus emphatically warns against wanting wealth, against greed and selfishness. Isn’t accumulating wealth what capitalism is all about?

    Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust consume and where thieves break in and steal; but store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust consumes and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matthew 6:19-21)

    You cannot serve both God and Mammon. (Matthew 6:24)

  305. @attilathehen

    This is a curious turn.

    I think the disagreements between myself and others on matters faith is clear. Your attempt to goad or manipulate me into some manner of accusation which I did not apply to you is peculiar.

    I think it’s a good idea to remain on the issues on the table relevant to faith and practice of christian faith.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  306. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Well that’s certainly one interpretation. It is quite an honor to be one of the Mothers of the Believers – it is a station unreachable except but only the most pious of women.

    but remember your low caste place.

    Sho’ thing massa’…

  307. @attilathehen

    And if people think all Christians are as hateful as you are, you will have given Christianity itself a bad name. “You can go to church, but not my church. You can go to Heaven, but not my Heaven.”

    There are too many SJWs already claiming people like you are typical Christians: i.e., hypocrites.

    • Agree: Talha
  308. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    But, at this point in time, 2018, we can see which cultures are successful. The Japanese are superior to the Chinese. We can see this today. Japan may be been marginal in the past, but today it is at the top. Asians can only copy. They do not invent. The Japanese were able to modernize quickly because they adapt very easily to new things. India, China have peaked and are declining. They don’t have the IQ.

    It is proof of the stupidity of the alt-right that you all keep drawing generalized conclusions based on “this point in time”. And it is proof of your pathetic ignorance of “this point in time” that you think China has “peaked” and is now declining.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  309. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    He can believe it is a Christian Heresy or a false religion and proceed to engage with me in a civil manner; it’s what actually lends credence to him having imbibed Christian ethos.

  310. @attilathehen

    “Cuck pope Frannie stating that he does not believe in hell, shows his own evil.” – either no commas separating a noun and its verb, or parallel commas around a modifying phrase: Cuck pope Frannie, stating that he does not believe in hell, shows his own evil.

    “a Christ like soul” – hyphen for compound adjectives: a Christ-like soul

    “The only reason lily white minions are getting away with the homosexuality and pedophilia in the RCC is because of cucks like you” – same problem with missing hyphen on lily-white, and redundant wording: the reason is, or this is because. NEVER the reason is because

    “You thinkest” – thou thinkest, for 2nd-person familiar

    Etc. If you revere Western culture so much, why haven’t you bothered to learn our language?

    Surely it should be easy, with your Caucasian IQ.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  311. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Materialism: the philosophical theory that regards matter and its motions as constituting the universe

    Since the afterlife in Islam also consists of matter and its motions what should it be called if not materialist?

    I personally think it’s great that some people think the ideal afterlife is is a dream-form

    You have it ass-backwards. This life is the dream.

    This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real (Rumi)

    or as a eunuch hermit stick in a cave without food forever. Sounds cool, but not for us,

    This is why I find you so contemptible. You are an incorrigible liar: you claim to be a Sufi but there is nothing spiritual about your beliefs. If you think you will be fu*king 72 virgins for ever and ever in the afterlife you are a Salafi not a Sufi.

    Secondly, where did you get the idea that the alternative to your whorehouse or torture chamber concept of the afterlife is “a eunuch hermit stick in a cave without food forever”? This is yet another example of your disgusting dishonesty. Shame on you.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @Talha
  312. @Bliss

    The Plato’s Cave thing is this life. The things we can see only by shadow or reflection are the next life.

  313. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    We can’t always control what the government does, but we can control what we, as individuals, do.

    Unfortunately that’s an illusion. The government can and does control what we as individuals do. And they do so in increasingly sophisticated and powerful ways.

    Christians need to come to the realisation that their religion is fundamentally incompatible with democracy. It’s possible to reconcile Christianity with monarchy but it can never be reconciled with democracy. In a democracy moral questions are decided by a popular vote. I don’t recall any incidents in the Bible where Jesus decided moral questions by putting the matter to a vote.

    Christianity can be compatible with true monarchy, where the king is king by the Grace of God, but it’s not compatible with constitutional monarchy.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  314. @dfordoom

    Even in a true monarchy, there can be conflicts. Remember Henry II and Beckett? Or the Guelfs and Ghibellines?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  315. @EliteCommInc.

    You’re a cuck. I had an e-mail exchange a couple of months ago with an RCC cuck male who wrote that Mexico is an example of a good RCC country. Marcus Grodi, a host on EWTN stated in a his Journey Home show today that Mexico is a good RCC country. You once again prove my point.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  316. @Rosamond Vincy

    So you’re reduced to attacking my few grammatical mistakes in these exchanges. These are informal forums. A few mistakes are not important. Big picture, you can’t deal with what I’ve told you about the RCC. You cannot deal with the most important objective truth: IQ. This relates directly to race differences and morality. The RCC cannot change blacks/Asians.a

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  317. @Bliss

    China is the fastest aging country in the world. They have performed over 400 million abortions since the late 1970s (a conservative estimate). This is a very good thing for the West.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  318. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Even in a true monarchy, there can be conflicts. Remember Henry II and Beckett?

    Ideally, assuming Christendom could be restored, kings should be subject to the authority of the Pope in all matters pertaining to faith.

  319. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    “Materialism, also called physicalism, in philosophy, the view that all facts (including facts about the human mind and will and the course of human history) are causally dependent upon physical processes, or even reducible to them.”

    https://www.britannica.com/topic/materialism-philosophy

    I don’t see how an afterlife that assumes one’s true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God:
    “Upon that day faces shall be radiant, gazing upon their Lord.” [75.22-23]
    “This beholding is one of the greatest of spiritual favors. May Allah make us of those who are granted ultimate felicity.”

    http://seekershub.org/ans-blog/2011/01/26/does-seeing-allah-imply-that-he-has-a-body-form-or-limitations/

    …can be considered materialist. But hey, you do you – if you want to call it materialist, I support you 100%.

    This place is a dream. Only a sleeper considers it real (Rumi)

    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) – through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain – stated; “People are asleep…when they die, they will awaken.”

    I also fully support you interpreting mystic poetry and aphorisms in a literal way – like I said, you do you.

    This is why I find you so contemptible.

    And I should care that some random anonymous non-Muslim internet guy, who can’t put a single Arabic sentence together, feels this way because…?

    If you think you will be fu*king 72 virgins for ever

    Hey, if that’s someone’s idea of Paradise – who am I to stop him? It is of course…Paradise, anyone can have what they want. I’m personally (hoping I get in, inshaAllah) looking forward to the beatific vision and meeting with the past Prophets (pbut) and Companions (ra) and luminaries. And also a house made of Twix bars so I can eat my way in and out of it…and a dragon – childhood dreams.

    you are a Salafi not a Sufi

    Thanks for your opinion, again, I 100% support your right to your opinions. I hope you don’t mind, neither I nor my teachers in the Naqshbandi Mujaddidi tariqah (descended from the line of Mujaddid Alif-Thani, Imam Rabbani, Shaykh Sirhindi [ra]) care.

    http://maktabah.org/blog/?p=906

    As I’ve stated before, I totally believe in your right to define “Sufism” any which way you want. It’s a term Orientalists came up with anyway – we don’t need it since we have internal and indigenous definitions:

    This is yet another example of your disgusting dishonesty. Shame on you.


    Yes, I’m quite incorrigible…but there is a solution!

    Close your eyes, look deep, deep inside your heart – shut out all the noise – there is an inner voice whispering to you…”Click the ‘IGNORE COMMENTER’ button, you will find it by first clicking on ‘AGREE/DISAGREE/ETC.’”

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
    , @Bliss
  320. @attilathehen

    So you’re reduced to attacking my few grammatical mistakes in these exchanges. These are informal forums. A few mistakes are not important.

    They are not few. I ran out of the patience necessary to list them. All of your posts are riddled with mistakes. Some may be ordinary typos or the dreaded autocorrect at work, but others betray a lack of understanding of syntax.

    I can understand why you are furious with the Church, since your parochial schools and Jesuit university apparently managed to siphon you through without ever affording you a decent education–unless you’re not being entirely truthful about the terms under which you left some of those schools…. You can neither write nor reason. You propose arguments without being prepared for counter-arguments, and your only rebuttal is to call people cucks. You even display a near-complete ignorance of Scripture, and your ignorance of the early Church Fathers is total.

    Argumentum pro feminam has no more validity than argumentum ad hominem. Your supposedly higher IQ does not guarantee that your opinions are better-reasoned than others’. I have seen people with little formal education who display remarkable common sense, and I have also seen tenured professors who don’t have the sense to come in out of a shower of pigeon pee.

    You also know very little of the biology you place before belief. Palestinians and Israelis, to the consternation of both, are genetically very similar–something doctors have discovered when looking for matches for donor organ transplants. Could it be that the old Bible story about Isaac and Ishmael being half-brothers is true, and they are all cousins? No wonder they can’t get along. Nothing worse than a family fight!

    You repeatedly support your opinions by claiming that being Caucasian gives you a higher IQ. I have significant disagreements with Talha’s theology, but I have seen no evidence that he is either uneducated or naturally deficient.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  321. @Talha

    I can relate to the dragon thing. I’ve always wanted to cuddle a tiger.

    • Replies: @Talha
  322. @attilathehen

    What sort of Christian believes abortion is “good” in any context? Do you also approve of Chinese Dying Rooms, for unwanted babies (usually girls)?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  323. @attilathehen

    I think my position on immigration related to faith is clear.

    I would go as far as to say, that currently, anyone of any faith hiding illegal immigrants, encouraging illegal immigration – participating in it in any manner is subject to arrest. Nothing in our immigration policy prohibits the practice of faith.

    In fact, I went out of my way to make it clear – early in this discussion.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  324. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Everyone’s version of Paradise is different; a young man who died too young to marry may look forward to beautiful women, another may just want some place to be loved and feel safe since they were abused by their parents, another may simply want the arm and leg he never had, etc.

    My 8 year-old son has had type-1 diabetes for two years now – it is an auto-immune disease that simply asserts itself at some point in life to those who are vulnerable. Before every meal; we have to check his blood sugar, calculate the carbs in his meal and give him a shot of insulin. He sees more shots in a week than the average human being likely gets over their entire lifetime – and it really aches one’s heart to be the one to cause pain to your own child by poking them with needles multiple times a day, when you are the one they look to for protection.

    Once when I was talking to him about Heaven, I said; you know son, you should try hard to make sure you live a good life in obedience to God because then He will let you into Heaven and you can have all the candy and ice cream you want.

    He was so excited and responded; and I won’t even have to get a shot before eating.

    Breaks my heart when I recall it, but that’s his version of Paradise – a place without needles.

    Malcolm X rejected NOI after he found himself praying besides a non-black Muslim.

    Indeed – and he wrote about how he drank from the same cup and ate from the same plate as men with blond hair and blue eyes. It was a profound experience for him. Especially the Hajj in which all the men are required to wear only two white cloths (the same as the shroud we are buried in). The rich, the poor, the king, the beggar, the literate and the illiterate are stripped down to the basics of their humanity; circling as one with a singular purpose of worship, transcending their worldly identities (whether national, ethnic, etc.) in a reminder as to how you will leave all that behind when you get put in the ground*…it was well captured in Spike Lee’s film which literally does the montage over Malcolm’s very own words in his letter home:

    What is interesting to note is that though he dropped his racist views, he made it clear in subsequent interviews that he was in no way supporting forced integration and thought it was a policy doomed to failure.

    Peace.

    *The worms and other insects will enjoy feasting on the brains of the intelligent and the stupid (I’m sure White skin tastes as good to them as Black also) – thanking God for the sustenance He has provided them again and again from the Children of Adam (pbuh) – the arrogant and the lowly of them alike.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  325. @Rosamond Vincy

    I am only for the West. Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  326. @EliteCommInc.

    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Bliss
  327. @Talha

    I believe in the Resurrection of the body and life everlasting, so the worms can nibble away.

    That was beautifully filmed and acted. Did you catch the strains of Tchaikovsky’s “Arabian Dance” from Nutcracker in the incidental music?

    I’ve heard that many Muslims had about as much respect for the NOI as Hindus had for the Hare Krishnas who used to haunt college campuses. Neither troubled to study the religion before adopting its trappings.

    • Replies: @Talha
  328. @attilathehen

    I will accept whomever the Conclave votes for. Given that there were three supposed Popes at the time of St. Catherine of Siena, the papacy was located in Avignon rather than Rome at one point, and Napoleon imprisoned Pius VI, who died in captivity, I think the papacy is pretty resilient no matter what humans try to do to it.

    Either the papacy was established by Jesus, and is still in Good Hands, or it isn’t. This by no means indicates that some Popes aren’t better than others. Do you think it was an accident that the Rock Jesus chose for his Church was Peter, who wavered before the Resurrection, but never afterwards? The point was: God can fix even the most serious problems, if we let Him.

  329. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    I believe in the Resurrection of the body and life everlasting, so the worms can nibble away.

    Exactly – all those things we thought were so important will be buried in the dirt; then it’s on to what we believed and how we conducted ourselves.

    Did you catch the strains of Tchaikovsky’s “Arabian Dance” from Nutcracker in the incidental music?

    No, I hadn’t – thanks!

    I’ve heard that many Muslims had about as much respect for the NOI as Hindus had for the Hare Krishnas who used to haunt college campuses. Neither troubled to study the religion before adopting its trappings.

    Exactly. My wife – who is a White convert (raised in an irreligious family) – told me that all she knew about Islam growing up was what people from the NOI had said; the White man is the devil. In fact, some Blacks in her high school actually told that to her face. It is a fortunate thing that she found out the correct doctrine when she attended UCLA (which is where we met).

    I know another brother (also a White convert) who actually wanted to join the NOI, because that’s all he had been exposed to about Islam, and they outright rejected him because…well, you know. Again, he eventually found out what mainstream Sunni Islam was about and got on board.

    As for the NOI itself, the late Warith Deen Muhammad (son of Elijah Muhammad) completely broke with the teachings of his father and took the majority of the congregation with him when they transitioned into Sunni Islam – it was probably one of the biggest mass conversions in recent history.

    At least they aren’t as bad as the BlackStones (a street gang whose name was inspired by the Black Stone in the Kaabah):

    https://chicagoganghistory.com/gang/almighty-black-p-stones/

    And they do make some very serious bean pies – highly, highly recommended. Any time I came by one of them selling them, I’d pick one up.

    So this thing you are talking about – repelling people from the faith is a very real phenomenon.

    Peace.

  330. @attilathehen

    Laugh. The Catholic Pope is selected via a process by which it is confirmed by miraculous signs . . .

    As there is no scriptural or doctrinal prohibitions based on skin color, or nationality or ethnicity —

    I am unclear by what matter of scripture or doctrine I could challenge the matter.

    One has three choices when a conflict arises to faith:

    1. depart the faith
    2. accept accordance with the principles and so explicated or
    3. find another avenue of justification so one is not in direct conflict
    4. part ways

    I will answer your question on one condition — note the scripture or Catholic doctrine that forbids it. As I indicated — scripture comes first. The admonitions of the apostles and christ come first. Demonstrate a violation in those foundations. I will answer your inquiry.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  331. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    I have seen multiple people at UNZ stuck on a silly principle of “average intelligence”; and I think, yeah so – how does that relate to the individual?

    Like, you know it is possible to have a High-IQ Black person despite the average in their population and a Low-IQ East Asian despite the average in theirs, right? I mean its basic understanding of mathematics and statistics that my 8 year-old can figure out.

    In our history, two of the greatest legal minds were the jurists Imam Malik (ra) who founded the school of Madinah which became the Maliki school of law and Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) who founded the school of Kufah which became the Hanafi school.

    Imam Malik (ra) was a White man described as having white skin, blue eyes and blonde hair. On the other side, Imam Abu Hanifah (ra) was a Persian – and yet one of his main teachers was Imam Ata’ ibn Abi Rabah (ra) a Nubian African who was the main jurist of Makkah.

    Sure, maybe averages on intelligence, strength, height, resistance to disease, etc. make a difference in how a particular society takes shape (and the environment of the society, in turn, affects those traits in a sort of organic feedback loop); this totally makes sense. But why the hell would you judge a particular individual by an average value? I can’t understand the leap of logic there – even without reference to scripture.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  332. @Rosamond Vincy

    You cannot have “significant disagreements with Talha’s theology.” He is a Christian heretic. The pre-Vatican II RCC stated this. Tell him Islam is a Christian heresy and all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect. Islam directly attacks the divinity of Jesus,

    Your grammar obsession is just a way to ignore what I have stated.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Rosamond Vincy
  333. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    Would you accept a black/Asian pope?

    You are like a lunatic banging his head against the wall. You cannot reconcile your white supremacism with Catholicism. Deal with it.

    Deal with this also:

    https://www.insideedition.com/what-did-jesus-look-historian-says-widely-known-image-christ-inaccurate-42006

    “many historians believe that the fair-skinned Jesus was actually inspired by the heir to the Borgia clan in Italy in the 15th century, Caesar Borgia. The Italian Cardinal was famed for his handsome features, and his father, Pope Alexander VI, commissioned Leonardo da Vinci to paint a portrait of Jesus modeled after his sons.

    But, citing historian Joan Taylor and her latest book, “What Did Jesus Look Like?” Beaudoin speculated the real Jesus probably looked much different.

    He said historians believe Jesus was much darker skin, and stood at only 5 feet tall. He would have also worn his beard and hair short.

    Instead of a long robe, Jesus likely wore a knee-length tunic with a short mantle or shawl, and wore leather sandals.

    “He would have presented very typically, she argues, as a Jewish man of his day, which is quite different than how Jesus is often imagined in Christian churches today,” Beaudoin explained. “Think about Jewish people in Iraq today and this is how we should imagine Jesus. He would have looked like what we think of Middle Eastern presenting people today.”

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  334. @Talha

    I am not a very bright person. So I have to tread lightly on the matter of intelligence. It’s far ,more complex than most are led to believe. And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.

    But on the issue of morality, it’s quite clear that having a “high IQ” has little merit. The issue of moral coding is not something that seemed to matter — Christ does not seem to have modified his message from the poor to the wealthy or the elite educated, save he said the road of belief for them would be harder. Which seems to suggest the opposite the more benefit against others one has seems to indicate the tougher it is to be moral.

    When one considers the hassle required to get through the eye of a local community stronghold and his comparison for the wealthy to get to heaven — it’s neither a case for intelligence or wealth to a better moral standing.

    I have some views why the current press is becoming increasingly vital to colorists and genetic polity. But on the matter of faith, it was the intelligentsia that betrayed Christ and the intelligentsia with who Christ seems to had the most intense battles with. It is not that there is anything wrong with wealth or IQ, but Christ makes it clear it carrier weight as to accountability.

    In the end, to salvation and ion relation to the living God — neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps. In fact, Christ notes, he went to those who should have known who he was,

    but they knew him not.”

    • Replies: @Talha
  335. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Tell him

    Sho’ thing massa’…

    Are you the kind of person that takes it upon themselves to order for everybody at the table when eating out?

    all that comes from Islamic thought is false, evil and incorrect.

    OMG!!! No way!!! Dang, Christendom has been saying that for 14 centuries now – but – wow – all of a sudden it hit me! Christians think our doctrines are; false, evil or incorrect!

    Man are we slow…I should go apostate and cry in a corner or something…

  336. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    And what serious researchers in the field openly admit is that have no idea how much of IQ is environment.

    Sure; partly genetic, partly environmental…and gasp(!!!) it fluctuates over time:
    “The Flynn effect describes the phenomenon that over time average IQ scores have been increasing in all countries since the turn of the twentieth century (the earliest point in time for which data is available). The change in IQ scores has been approximately three IQ points per decade. One major implications of this trend is that an average individual alive today would have an IQ of 130 by the standards of 1910, making them more intelligent than 98% of the population at that time. Equivalently, an individual alive in 1910 would have an IQ of 70 by today’s standards, a score that would be low enough to be considered intellectually disabled in the modern world.”

    https://ourworldindata.org/intelligence

    Holy cow!!!

    it carrier weight as to accountability.

    Bingo! Those that have actually been gifted more than others are actually carrying a liability on their shoulders; they will be held to different standards than those who have been granted less. Just as a man who can see vs the blind, the man who is handsome versus ugly, etc.

    neither color, IQ, wealth, ethnicity or nationality are impediments or helps

    Agreed:
    “O mankind! We have created you all from a male and female and have made you nations and tribes so that you may know each other. The most honorable among you in the sight of God is the most pious of you. God is All-knowing and All-aware.” (49:13)

    Peace.

  337. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    I don’t see how an afterlife that assumes one’s true existence as a spirit (in whichever modality of shape or body it is given) or the beatific vision of God…can be considered materialist.

    Is true existence spiritual or material? If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Secondly, it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes. Btw, it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba. Does that make sense to you?

    And Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) – through whom all tariqahs, save one, trace their chain – stated; “People are asleep…when they die, they will awaken.”

    You are just confirming yet again that Sufism is not true Islam, which is based on the Quran and Sunnah, not on some made up quotes from Ali. Who was the last Messenger of Allah, Mohammad or Ali?

    Hey, if that’s someone’s idea of Paradise – who am I to stop him? It is of course…Paradise, anyone can have what they want.

    “Someone’s idea of Paradise”? You lying fraud, as if you don’t know that is your Last Prophet’s idea of Paradise. Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins promised by Mohammad to fornicate with if you wanted? Show us where you learned that.

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not, does not believe the Prophet’s promise of 72 virgins with big black eyes and big round breasts that you are so looking forward to. True Sufis seek Oneness in God:

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God.

    (Rumi)

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Bliss
  338. @Bliss

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes. Jesus was a Caucasian. He would have looked like St. Augustine of Hippos. Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves. Through polygamy and concubinage these original Caucasian peoples were destroyed.

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  339. @EliteCommInc.

    You do accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  340. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    Most of the Muslim North African and Middle Eastern people today have black ancestry because when Islam took over these areas they imported blacks slaves.

    Muslim arabs, turks, berbers etc were all equal opportunity slavers: they enslaved millions of europeans as well. In fact the very word “slave” is derived from “slav”.

    North African pirates went on slave capturing raids as far as Ireland and Iceland. In the early 19th century a number of white US citizens also ended up as slaves of the Berber pirates.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary_slave_trade

    [MORE]

    The Barbary slave trade refers to the slave markets that flourished on the Barbary Coast of North Africa, which included the Ottoman provinces of Algeria, Tunisia and Tripolitania and the independent sultanate of Morocco, between the 16th and middle of the 18th century. The Ottoman provinces in North Africa were nominally under Ottoman suzerainty, but in reality they were mostly autonomous. The North African slave markets were part of the Arab slave trade.

    Ohio State University history Professor Robert Davis describes the White Slave Trade as minimized by most modern historians in his book Christian Slaves, Muslim Masters: White Slavery in the Mediterranean, the Barbary Coast and Italy, 1500–1800. Davis estimates that 1 million to 1.25 million white Christian Europeans were enslaved in North Africa, from the beginning of the 16th century to the middle of the 18th, by slave traders from Tunis, Algiers, and Tripoli alone (these numbers do not include the European people which were enslaved by Morocco and by other raiders and traders of the Mediterranean Sea coast),[3] and roughly 700 Americans were held captive in this region as slaves between 1785 and 1815

    From bases on the Barbary coast, North Africa, the Barbary pirates raided ships traveling through the Mediterranean and along the northern and western coasts of Africa, plundering their cargo and enslaving the people they captured. From at least 1500, the pirates also conducted raids along seaside towns of Italy, Spain, France, England, the Netherlands and as far away as Iceland, capturing men, women and children. On some occasions, settlements such as Baltimore, Ireland were abandoned following the raid, only being resettled many years later. Between 1609 and 1616, England alone had 466 merchant ships lost to Barbary pirates

    Sixteenth- and 17th-century customs statistics suggest that Istanbul’s additional slave import from the Black Sea may have totaled around 2.5 million from 1450 to 1700………..A compilation of partial statistics and patchy estimates indicates that a little fewer than 2 million Russians, Ukrainians, and Poles were seized from 1468 to 1694. Additionally, there were slaves from the Caucasus obtained by a mixture of raiding and trading.

  341. Bliss says:
    @attilathehen

    Bliss, you’re not paying attention. I said I left the RCC because I don’t accept black/Asian priests-popes.

    How could I not be paying attention when I am in fact responding to what you have been repeating ad nauseam? You really come across as a mental case. How often do you have to repeat that statement?

    It says a lot about your character that you left the RCC over something as irrelevant to its mission as race, and not because of the sexual predation and perversions of its priests (the guilty ones being overwhelmingly white).

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  342. @attilathehen

    There is no need to tell Talha anything. He is well aware that while Muslims believe Jesus to be a great prophet, Catholics believe He was, is now, and ever shall be the Messiah and the Second Person of the Holy Trinity. I cannot give him any arguments he could not find in the Gospels or the Doctors of the Church.

    It is a work of Spiritual Mercy to instruct the ignorant. Talha is not ignorant.

    My “obsession” with your grammar, poor logic, and partial knowledge of Scripture is merely a response to your constant attacks on others for having low IQs. What have you done with your IQ, however high it may be, besides embrace either-or fallacies, ad hominem attacks, and circular reasoning? What have you done with the Western Culture you so prize, besides mangle the language of Chaucer, Shakespeare, and Milton?

    If God indeed gave you these gifts, how are you using them?

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  343. @Bliss

    What is your interest in the West?

  344. @attilathehen

    My position is pretty clear and that position has been consistently maintained. The support for the christian faith rests on scripture — feel free to demonstrate the reference in which either the old, or new testament notes a hierarchy based on IQ, skin color, wealth, ethnicity, status or nationality —

    That’s where I start and generally end.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  345. @Rosamond Vincy

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even. Of course you won’t say anything to Talha – you are a coward and you will not declare the truth of Christianity. The Muslim belief in Jesus being a great prophet is still a heresy. You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. Where I live, Muslims tried to convert me. I told them Islam is a Christian heresy. They didn’t like that, but too bad.

    There is good news though. 2020 will be Year Zero in the West. The RCC has collapsed and churches are closing. I am talking about the physical church, not Christianity. Jesus said we are the temples. The RCC in the USA will be almost extinct by 2025. You mentioned Avignon. This shows that the papacy can be moved to the Congo or the Philippines. The West will not miss it. You cannot deal with biology and that the most objective truth is IQ. IQ is tied to race, morality.

    Victor Orban’s victory in Hungary will completely the divide Western and Eastern Europe in the future. Eastern Europe is fine. The strength of the Orthodox Church will preserve it. I deal in reality and you come back with cotton candy nonsense.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  346. @EliteCommInc.

    You will OSCULUM INFAME black/Asian priests-popes. I read your comment to Talha about you not being very bright. You are bright enough. Your problem is your cowardliness. The RCC, the Orthodox Church, and Anglo Catholics have the best theologies. The brilliant reasoning to develop the Christian church is a testament to the intellect and soul of the Western man. That’s the catch, Westerners are the ones who can best comprehend and apply the principles of Christianity. With that said, I would like all people to be Christian, but they must have their own ethnic churches. The RCC is gone. Diversity killed the physical church. The Orthodox Church will be the church of the West.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  347. @attilathehen

    Your cowardly cuckiness is so out there – I can’t even.

    You can’t even what?

    https://www.google.com/amp/thebunionpaper.com/post/63561160679/rich-girl-in-dining-hall-cant-even/amp

    I could stand up to Talha if I saw the need, but at the moment, I’m standing up to you. Unfortunately, that’s getting boring, because you don’t have anything to say. It’s all “I’m white and Christian and they’re not.” Anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a cuck or low IQ. You question everyone else’s Ethos while never building any of your own.

    What Jesuit University allowed you to graduate? Debate is their specialty. Even Voltaire admitted the Jesuits gave him a first-rate education.

    .
    .

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  348. @attilathehen

    Well, I have no doubt that round of diversity blaming is popular excuse these days. But the problems with the Catholic and Anglican Churches has everything to do with a leadership that is abandoning the very foundations of christian thought and belief.

    And in neither doctrine is skin color, IQ, ethnicity, or nationality a pre-requisite for faith and practice. I would point the expectations of christian practice as outlined in scripture for church failings, but as you don’t have much use for them as to practice or belief, I see no point.

    The only reasoning required to be a christian is the reasoning of Christ and his apostles — that and most importantly the Holy Spirit. No congregation or denomination has out reasoned Christ or the apostles and they don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it.

    At the feeding of the thousands, something that occurred more than once I think. Christ did have the apostles organize those present for the meal, but there is nothing that indicates, that organizational design was by color, IQ, ethnicity, status, class . . . nor is there any such prescription by any of the apostles.

    While we manifest ourselves in buildings of various designs and congregate in some manner — the physical body is but to be a reflection of the spiritual work of faith — that is in my view. The physical ultimately must give way to the spiritual. And while I must admit my own bitterness curtails my faith . . . the truth is

    ” 12 . . . we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places”

    Ephesians 6:12

    this strongly suggests that skin color, ethnicity are not the issue, not even IQ, but something else and that something else has no unique form of skin color or IQ or wealth or status. Physical diversity is not indicated as the issue.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  349. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Is true existence spiritual or material?

    It depends on the stage. Before being entered into our current realm, we existed in the Alam al-Arwah (the Spirit world), then our spirits were infused into an earthly shell which we will eventually discard and spend time in the Alam al-Barzakh until time for Resurrection, Judgement and then having our spirits infused into some form or shell, the modality of which is not 100% defined, for the rest of eternity.

    If it is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity?

    Has nothing to do with “has to” any more than the spirit “has to” be infused into an earthly shell temporarily. God does what he wills.

    it is absurd to say that muslims can see the formless Allah with their resurrected material eyes.

    So you didn’t read through the material at the link by Shaykh Faraz Rabbani. I didn’t think you would, but thanks for the confirmation.

    it is also absurd to think that the formless Allah lives in a small house, the Kaaba.

    Very absurd.

    Does that make sense to you?

    Nope – which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah. But I support you thinking we do – again, 100%. You do you!

    that Sufism is not true Islam

    I already confirmed 100% support for your definition of “Sufism” to be mutually exclusive from Islam.

    some made up quotes from Ali

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar – especially the Rashidun Caliphs (ra) – as a valid source of deriving advice or law. The Four Sunni schools have never had a problem with it. In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs. You are welcome to reject hadith athaar or any other hadith for that matter. Again, we should care because…?

    Do you really think you can have more than the 72 virgins

    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100…Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand. I don’t know of a single scholar that fixed an exact number and said; no more, no less. Since the scholars have always interpreted the textual sources keeping this overarching theme in mind:
    “And you will have therein whatever your souls desire, and you will have therein whatever you request” (41:31)

    But again, I 100% support you interpreting hadith however you want, I just fail to see why Muslims should care.

    fornicate with

    Does not compute:
    “So it will be. We shall wed them to maidens with beautiful eyes.” (44:54)

    A true Sufi, which you obviously are not

    Man, beat that dead horse – you go girl!

    (Rumi)

    I have been quite fascinated how Orientalists and Westerners have managed to turn a medieval Hanafi jurist, the Mufti of Konya – no less – into a perennialist hippy. That’s OK – again, I totally support your right to define him as you feelz…and we should care, why?
    “The Erasure of Islam from the Poetry of Rumi”

    https://www.newyorker.com/books/page-turner/the-erasure-of-islam-from-the-poetry-of-rumi

    “I am the servant of the Qur’ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.” – Maulana Rumi (ra)

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    Now, I’m going to take my own advice and ignore any further posts from you, so feel free to waste your time in responding if you wish.

    Note: For anyone seriously interested in the subject, the above site is a great resource on his personage and accurate translations of his works (as opposed to Deepak Chopra [LOL!] or something). It is under the aegis of the institute in Turkey that is dedicated to preserving the legacy of Mawlana Rumi (ra):
    “The Institute is affiliated with the International Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Foundation, in Istanbul, Turkey. The president of the Foundation is the hereditary and actual world leader of the Mevlevi order–the 33rd Chelebi Efendi, Faruk Hemdem Chelebi, the 22nd generation great-grandson of Hazrat-i Mevlânâ Jalâluddîn Rûmî.”

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/about_dar_al_masnavi.html

    • Replies: @Bliss
    , @Bliss
    , @Bliss
    , @Bliss
  350. @Rosamond Vincy

    Deal with the most objective realistic truth – IQ, which is related to race and morality.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  351. @attilathehen

    God created race, IQ, and morality, and I expect He knows more on the subject than either of us.

    I suggest you (re-)read the Gospels. From beginning to end: don’t go cherry-picking your quotes. See what Jesus actually said.

    If you won’t listen to Him, I’m sure I can’t make any difference here.

  352. @EliteCommInc.

    “don’t seem to demand the requirements or the segregation you profess. You are entitled to it, but it’s not part or parcel by the founder — I won’t adopt it.” You won’t adopt it – but it will be imposed upon you. China has already started this process. The Chinese government has taken over its RCC and will choose its bishops. They are Sinoizing the Bible and Christianity. Cuck pope Frannie is ok with this. Asians will not want you. Blacks in Latin America are returning to their voodoo roots: Santeria in Cuba, Candomble in Brazil. Blacks will not want you.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world. The RCC was predominantly European/Caucasian. The battles to destroy the RCC came from within this Western Christendom. Today the battles come from low IQers (blacks/Asians). The evil idea of universal brotherhood has ended. Separation is the future of the RCC.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  353. I think there is accuracy in your observation that the as the Catholic faith became prominent they engaged in practices not in any manner supported by scripture.

    I think that is an astute and brave observation. And as such most likely the original break from Christ’s teachings establishing a gateway for all manner of secular transgressions on the word and body of Christ.

    Whether or not the other observations that said ethnicities are at fault, I would have to examine what unique destructive aberrations or deviations from the word of Christ and the apostles they advanced.

    China does not endorse any expression of a belief in God. Should I go to China the Chinese would expect me to abide by their guidance on evangelism. But said guidance and restrictions are not to people of faith – and despite the risks, one would be well within Christ’s teaching=s and that of apostles who were also persecuted for the sharing the good news.

  354. @attilathehen

    I agree that it was a dicey proposition for people of faith to incorporate regional beliefs as a means of explaining Christ — but I am never required to adopt them as my own. This method of helping to explain salvation and God in christain faith was practiced among the Galics, Romans, Anglo Saxons, vikings, etc.

    In fact, scripture makes it clear I should not do so.

    • Replies: @Talha
  355. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    Up until Vatican II, the West, Europeans conquered and ruled the world.

    We wuz kaaaangz!!!!

    Actually it’s more like post WW2 after the Europeans went hyper-postal on each other’s cities (often inviting their third world minions to join up in the fray), they didn’t have the wherewithal to hold the enterprises together. India and Pakistan were one of the first to go…then the rest – one by one. Not for lack of trying mind you – the effort to keep Algeria was thoroughly brutal.

    All for the best though, the power dynamics have changed so much. It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @dfordoom
  356. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    “I am the servant of the Qur’ân [man banda-yi qur'ân-am] as long as I have life. I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen one [muhammad-e mukhtâr]. If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings, I am quit of him and outraged by these words.” – Maulana Rumi (ra)

    Lol. To paraphrase Shakespeare, “The Sufi doth protest too much, methinks”.

    Rumi is obviously trying to protect himself and his disciples from the fate that befell the Sufi martyr Mansur Hallaj. That he had to defend himself like this shows that he must have been accused of heresy by some orthodox muslims.

    Do you really think Rumi’s whirling dervishes are following the example of Mohammad? What did Mohammad say about music? Do the Quran and Sunnah teach Oneness of Being?

    The dichotomy between Sufis and the followers of Mohammad is starkly highlighted by the fact that Hallaj is a martyr to the Sufis and an apostate who deserved torture and death to the true muslims.

    Rumi on Hallaj:

    [MORE]

    Hallaj said what he said and went to the origin
    through the hole in the scaffold.

    I cut a cap’s worth of cloth from his robe,
    and it swamped over me from head to foot.

    This is how Hallaj said, I am God,
    and told the truth!

    The ruby and the sunrise are one.
    Be courageous and discipline yourself.

    Completely become hearing and ear,
    and wear this sun-ruby as an earring.

    Work. Keep digging your well.
    Don’t think about getting off from work.
    Water is there somewhere.

    Submit to a daily practice.
    Your loyalty to that
    is a ring on the door.

    Keep knocking, and the joy inside
    will eventually open a window
    and look out to see who’s there.

  357. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Any objective observer can see that Sufism has little if anything to do with the Quran or the beliefs and practices of the Prophet Mohammad. That includes western scholars, New Age types, free-thinking Sufis and (most importantly and dangerously for the Sufis) the muslims who practice the Islam of Mohammad.

    http://www.dar-al-masnavi.org/western_views.html

    During most of the past two hundred years, however, Western scholars (sometimes called Orientalists) have not viewed sufism as something largely inspired by the Qur’ân and Traditions [Ahâdîth]. Instead, they have tended to view sufism as imported from other religions such as Christianity, Judaism, Neoplatonism, Gnosticism, Hermeticism, Zoroastrianism, Hinduism, or Buddhism. Here is an example from an Orientalist who translated some of the poems of Hâfiz from Persian in 1897: “Hafiz belonged to the great sect from which so many of the most famous among Persian writers have sprung. Like Sa’di and Jami and Jelaleddin Rumi and a score of others, he was a Sufi. The history of Sufiism has yet to be written, the sources from which it arose are uncertain, and that it should have found a home in Mahommadanism, the least mystical of all religions, is still unexplained. Some have supposed that Sufiism was imported from India after the time of Mahommad….A third theory is that the origins of Sufiism are to be looked for in the philosophy of the Greeks, strangely distorted by the Eastern mind, and in the influence of Christianity…”1

    The popularization of sufism in the West followed this same pattern (first in Europe and then in America) starting in 1910 through a sufi musician and spiritual teacher from India, `Inâyat Khân, who taught that sufism is a form of universal mysticism with no real dependence upon Islam. Westerners were encouraged that they could learn sufi wisdom and do sufi spiritual practices without changing religions or becoming involved with Muslim ritual prayers and Muslim religious authorities.

    And here’s the justification of the link’s author:

    Sufis follow the Tradition that the Holy Qur’ân has an outward meaning and up to seven inner meanings [ilà sab`ati abTun], with the understanding that these meanings should not contradict the spirit of the outward or plain meaning.

    Note how he had conveniently neglected to mention that Salafi/orthodox muslims also agree that Sufism is not based on the Islam taught by Mohammad. Why? Because he would be unable to defend his claim of “seven inner meanings” in the Quran against their accusations of innovation and heresy.

    Nowhere does the Quran or Hadith teach that it has 7 hidden meanings. Quite the opposite:

    This day I have perfected your religion for you (Surat al-Maidah)

    You have an excellent model in the Messenger of Allah (Surat al-Ahzab)

    If anyone opposes the Messenger…and follows a path other than that of the believers…We will roast him in Hell. (Surat an-Nisa:115)

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Sahih Muslim 1885)

  358. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    It depends on the stage.

    As if there is any stage that can be compared to the eternal stage, the afterlife in heaven or hell. Where your material body experiences pleasure or pain for ever and ever. That is the teaching of Islam. But not of Sufism.

    Nope – which is why no Muslim thinks God actually lives in the Kaabah.

    It sure looks like it. Why else would they call it the “House of Allah”? Why would they pray facing only in that direction? Why would they chant “Here I am Allah, here I am” when they reach the Kaaba in pilgrimage and circle around it? Why would they consider prostrating towards any other direction in God’s Creation as worshipping a false god? Etc

    Some hadith mention 72, some 2, some 73, some 100…Imam Ghazali (ra) references two that mention 500 and a few hundred thousand.

    Plenty hadith here that confirm the 72 number:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Authenticity_of_72_Virgins_Hadith

    Now show us the Hadith that promises a few hundred thousand.

  359. @Talha

    Again, I want t keep my comments in context of the issue of faith. The introduction of power political strategic thinking as to colonial practice has some serious breaks in adhering to scripture admonitions of Christ and the apostles.

    Though I think I understand your point.

    I am going to tread lightly in straying from that position in this conversation. Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @dfordoom
  360. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    OK – so you don’t accept the validity of the sayings of Companions (ra), which we call hadith athaar –

    There is no such thing as “hadith athaar”, you loathsome liar.

    And the sayings of Mohammad’s companions are not considered Ḥadīth.

    • Replies: @Talha
  361. Bliss says:
    @Bliss

    I searched for God and found only myself. I searched for myself and found only God. (Rumi)

    Jesus: Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me (John 14:11)

    See the similarity? That is Oneness Of Being.

  362. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Thanks. Again – I really, really appreciate you chiming in on why you think “Sufism” is not part of Islam, why Salafi-Wahhabi interpretation is “the True Islam”, why all Sufi-Scholars were doing taqiyyah to protect their lives, why we think Allah lives inside the Kaabah, why we don’t understand our own tradition, why we should care about the opinions of Orientalists, how you’ve discovered verses and hadith that our scholars never came across, etc.

    I think it’s great you have all these opinions and are so enthusiastic to teach me what correct Islam is.

    It’s very quaint (reminds me of White Man’s Burden and such) and actually kind of cute (pith helmets!!!).

    you loathsome liar

    Oh and the many insults on top of it are simply the creme in the coffee…

  363. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    You’ve done a great job trying to keep the conversation on point. My comment was more tongue-in-cheek.

    I just see a lot of parallels between White nationalists and Black nationalists about past glory in the “we wuz kangz” methodology. They love making stuff up and speculating.

    On another thread, a guy was talking about how some Hungarian nationalists claim that specifically they are actually descended from a different species that was seeded from a distant planet.

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  364. Bliss says:

    You waste a lot of time and energy on whining. Just stick to the issue.

    I call you a liar only when I find you willfully lying (which is too often). Why do you lie so much?

    • Replies: @Talha
  365. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Just stick to the issue.

    Oh – I have totally agreed to you (multiple times already) being able to have your own opinion on definitions and parameters. I support you 100%. I think that’s really great and shows a lot of self-confidence! Everything you are saying makes total sense according to the parameters you believe are true – the arguments are 100% airtight!

    I simply haven’t seen you respond to my repeated question; why should Muslims care?

    I mean, we haven’t really cared what non-Muslims have written about us or allowed them to define our terms for centuries – why would we start now? Do Catholics let non-Catholics define the terms of their doctrine and canon – or do they have internal discussions about it?

    Why do you lie so much?

    Super taqiyyah awesomeness – you already know this. That’s what Muslims do according to you, remember?

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Taqiyya

    As for someone who is looking at this from an academic perspective, they can see if they like your version of things or mine and whichever one of us has more legitimacy:
    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies”
    An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).

    • Replies: @Bliss
  366. @Talha

    this theory has become increasingly acceptable even among some mainstrean scientists and thinkers.

    I was a huge UFO reader when I was a kid. I have to admit that the issue still intrigues me. Ancient Aliens, alien DNA manipulation, alien abductions, etc. I listen with a very serious ear. What any of it means to faith and practice is a tricky matter, sometimes.

    But of this I am convinced, if an alien lands on this planet preaching another gospel — I have no intention of listening — regardless of their IQ.

    As for this,

    “We wuz alien kaaangz!”

    despite looking it up. I have n o idea what you are talking or referencing something about ancient kings or royal symbology — the phrase is lost on me.

    • Replies: @Talha
  367. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    even among some mainstrean scientists

    Yeah, I think either Watson or Krick thought life was seeded from another planet. I can see their dilemma; the human being and life itself is quite “magical” and so complex – it totally goes against the entropy principle in thermodynamics (which they try to get out of by appealing to the idea that the sun-provided energy makes up for the anomaly that a lifeless planet would eventually result in producing the city of Berlin):

    https://www.ted.com/talks/alexander_tsiaras_conception_to_birth_visualized

    I like how some don’t mind positing that aliens could have seeded this planet but if God inserted the current model of hominid called Adam (pbuh) and his children – howls of laughter ensue. Whatever…

    We wuz kangz…

    http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/we-wuz-kings

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  368. @Talha

    Uhhh,

    Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet.

    Just being silly . . .

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  369. As to the reference, I have never considered Egypt anything but an African state. How dark their skin color may be at issue. But I am at a loss why there’s a rag a muffin hoopla about it.

    Interesting — not interested in traveling down that road on the issue of hell.

  370. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    LOL! Yeah – the houris are not from the same species as human beings – they are not the Children of Adam – they are female-like (if you will); they weren’t given birth to, and raised as girls, then became women, etc.

    They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise – these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.

    So I should hang on to my celibacy

    You get the houris and your wife too (assuming she makes the cut with you) and some hadith talk about even getting married to another human female (you know, that may have never been married or maybe her husband didn’t make it, etc.).

    So find a good, pious, healthy wife and do what comes naturally…

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    , @Bliss
  371. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Sub-chapter on the term Athar from the chapter “An Introduction to Some Important Hadith Terminologies” An Introduction to Hadith: History and Sources

    Nowhere does it mention “hadith athar”. In fact that combination of words would be absurd based on the above. Try again. Didn’t you claim to be studying “hadith athar” currently?

    In fact, I’m currently studying the Hidayah by Imam Marghinani (ra), a 12th century legal compendium of the Hanafi school, which uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs.

    Why don’t you use the books you claim to be studying to prove you are not bullshitting?

    Looks like wikisilam doesn’t have a reference for ‘athaar’ (which is simply the transliteration of the Arabic broken plural of ‘athar’).

    Lol. So why didn’t you show us what it says about “athar”?

    Btw, still waiting for the hadith that promises you will have “hundreds of thousands” of virgins to screw in heaven. Find it or admit you lied there as well.

    • Replies: @Talha
  372. @Talha

    Excuse my levity —-

    I am sincerely joshing. I think there are celibate women left in Christianity.

    I had better quit while I am behind. My icetea is waiting.

    Ohhh wait, I missed this —–

    “They don’t really have a free-will either – their entire purpose is to make the men they were assigned to happy. You could almost consider them not much different than automatons or programmed bioroids, etc.”

    Ok enough. A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence —-

    I hear feminists, well women in general sharpening their knives.

    • Replies: @Talha
  373. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    It seems funny to think about it now; but the Netherlands used to control Indonesia. I can’t fathom them even thinking about it now.

    Europeans swing from one extreme to another. The Dutch used to control Indonesia. Now they don’t even want to control their own country. It’s like Europeans are all manic-depressive. They have huge mood swings. One minute they want to give the whole world a great big hug. The next minute they’re wanting to bomb people in countries they’ve barely even heard of. Or they want to destroy themselves by starting another world war.

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.

    • Replies: @Talha
  374. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more accessible to more people.

    Nonsense. Catholicism had been around for 2,000 years. It had never had a problem being accessible to people. No religion in history has ever been so spectacularly successful as Catholicism in making itself accessible to people.

    Vatican II was intended to make Catholicism more acceptable to people who hated Catholicism.

    Just as Bergoglio was chosen as being the Pope most acceptable to people who hate Catholicism.

    The Catholic Church has been through tough times before but never before has the Church been controlled by people who actively wish to destroy it. The Church can survive a bad Pope. It can’t survive a hierarchy dominated by enemies of religion.

  375. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    None of them will outstrip the actual earthly women who enter Paradise – these will be at the top of the hierarchy; in beauty and everything else.

    So the great reward in heaven you keep drooling over are 72 soulless “female-like” robots who are not even as attractive as human females? Lol. What a silly brainwashed fool. And he has the nerve to call himself a Sufi.

  376. @dfordoom

    Excuse me. But I have to laugh here. What is it about my comment that contradicts what you just said. My comment was not a criticism. It was an observation. So the term you are having issues with is acceptability over accessibility . . . a minor but not contradictory position that could be included.

    Laugh.

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people. I on occasions get caught up in fine details but your objection brings nothing new to the table. My comment does not challenge the length of time Catholics have been around.

    My comment has no bearing directly who was the selected Pope. I would consider that once a non-Catholic noted a pope they found acceptable they might then access Catholic services, dogma, and practice. As no one and mean no one considers the Pope accessible to the common parishioner.

    I think the Church can and will survive its enemies. All of Christianity is or will be coming under assault one day. I am concerned that so much of the Catholic leadership seem to be adopting practices wholly unacceptable to Christ. And I don’t mean the issue of priests being allowed to marry women.

    Given the content and context — my comment is neither nonsense nor out of line with Catholic theology in any way, as little as I know about doctrine. Though I appreciate the opportunity to clarify the comment.

    https://standardbearer.rfpa.org/node/43224

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  377. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    A wife with no free will — making a man happy as her entire existence

    Yup, that’s what these beings are literally made for. Just like the many servants one gets; that’s their entire purpose of existence. They are described as looking human, but they’ never set foot on the Earth.

    Feminists can say whatever they want; it’s not like they get to devise what Paradise looks like – they might not let any men in.

    My wife (who is a convert from a very liberal family in Berkeley) knows about all this and frankly finds it kind of funny what men’s version of Paradise is. It just kind of solidifies for her how vulnerable men are to the charms of women – it’s our number one weakness. To me, I think it’s funny that they are probably looking forward to having a new pair of shoes whenever they feel like – LOL!

    Ustadh Nouman Khan did a funny experiment about it with some teenagers:

    Peace.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  378. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Yeah homie – you’re awesome with your resistance to taqiyyah awesomeness!

    I’ll do you a favor…

    Hey everybody – stay away from the taqiyyah Muzzie troll named Talha because he is a filthy liar and he smells bad.

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    • Replies: @Bliss
  379. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    European civilisation seems to contain within it a great deal of craziness. Not just craziness, but dangerous psychosis.

    This is very true. Their approach to serious matters seems very strange – at either of two extremes. I mentioned this in other posts:
    “The issue is systemic within the Western framework with hyper-individualism being a major problem and a legal system of one-size-fits-all. The Western approach to its Jewish (or other minorities) community seems to be bipolar; either they are given the keys to the civilizational castle or they are being killed or deported.”

    http://www.unz.com/tsaker/a-crash-course-on-the-true-causes-of-anti-semitism/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2025452

    “Why are the options so bipolar; we either 1) have to cuddle and excuse them or 2) we burn anybody that looks like them alive? I thought Britain was a High IQ society; it can’t come up with a reasonable middle-ground solution that’s not lifted from the playbook of Genghiz Khan?”

    http://www.unz.com/jderbyshire/the-telford-child-sex-scandal-and-the-end-of-england/?highlight=bipolar#comment-2254370

    “Now, Westphalia started to change all that until you get to the point that you have today* – but now you are also complaining that a religious minority has, in effect, got a strangle-hold on the levers of power and is transforming society to your detriment. So which is it? You can’t have it both ways; pat yourself about how open and egalitarian you are and then complain about the consequences – it simply doesn’t make sense. “Look at us – we have three Jews in the Supreme Court!” while “Oh my God – there are three Jews in the Supreme Court!””

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/a-good-year-for-israel-and-its-friends/#comment-2125556

    It’s completely different than ours which is to give minorities a level of inclusion and enfranchisement but not at a level that is threatening to the over all hierarchy.

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    Peace.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
  380. @Talha

    I have but one comment.

    No comment.

    • LOL: Talha
  381. @EliteCommInc.

    What a cuck. You prove my point once again.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @EliteCommInc.
  382. @dfordoom

    You have to understand that the RCC survived for 2000 years because it started in the Caucasian Middle East and flowered in Europe. This is over. The majority of RCCers are now black/Asian. They will never produce the theology, culture created for the first 2000 years. The people who previously tried to destroy the RCC were Caucasians/Europeans. They couldn’t because there were other high IQ Caucasians/Europeans who could defend the church. The RCC is not worth saving today because it is a homosexual, multi culti grand lodge. My family has been RCC for hundreds of years. I left (and many others are leaving) because of the non-whites. The RCC is the main promoter of a combination Kalergi-Hooten plan for Europe. The Arians, Pelagians, King Henry VIII, Luther are nothing compared to the destruction low IQ blacks/Asians are bringing to the RCC. I am a post-Vatican II RCCer. I discovered the Latin Mass on my own. No black/Asian can ever carry on these beautiful masses. I’ve had an idea for several years now that the reason Vatican II was held and the Latin Mass banished was because RCC clergy had a glimpse into the future RCCers – low IQers.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  383. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    I don’t think he is getting it. I think you should start calling him poopoo-head and peeper-face and he’ll come around.

  384. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Page 364, Vol 1

    https://archive.org/stream/AlHidayahVol1AlBushra#page/n363/mode/2up

    Pathetic. The fraud links to an Arabic language source even though a searchable English language translation is easily available:

    A search for “hadith athar” gives 0 results. The word Hadith gives just 1 result and the word Athar gives only 14 with a number of them in which athar is part of a longer word. Even though Talha claims this book (which he claims he is currently studying) “uses hadith athaar extensively as proofs”. Using the word athaar instead of athar was wrong in the first place. Combining the words Hadith and Athar was an absurdity.

    Wikiislam gives only 8 results for Athar, the first 5 of which are some Indian muslim author’s middle name, showing it’s unimportance. Amusingly, the 3 low ranked search results which actually have to do with real meaning of the word Athar are all about music and dance (common in Sufism) being forbidden in Islam. Here is what 2 of the 3 search results link to:

    https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Music_and_Singing_-_Consensus_of_Companions_Taabieen_and_others

    In conclusion, the general consensus of the companions, taabi’een and the following generations of Islamic scholars up to the present day, including the four Imams, points to the ruling of prohibition of music and song (other than the exceptions to be mentioned later).

    There is agreement among the four imams that all musical instruments[136] (ma’aazif) are forbidden. Shaykhul Islam Ibn Taymiyyah affirms this in his celebrated Fataawa where he says, “The madhhab of the four imams is that all instruments of musical entertainment are haraam [forbidden]. It is authentically related in Saheehul Bukhaari and other compilations that Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) foretold that some of his ummah would seek to make lawful: fornication, the wearing of silk, wine-drinking and musical instruments [ma'aazif]; and that such people would be turned into apes and swine.

    In short, the Prophet foretold in the most trustworthy Hadith that people like Talha, will be turned into apes and pigs. And Allah says in the Quran that those who follow anyone other than his Last Messenger will be roasted in Hell.

    So what awaits this brainwashed fool in the afterlife? Will he be resurrected as an infinitely horny stud in Paradise coupling endlessly with 72 sex robots, or will he find himself in Hell in the body of a squealing pig or a screaming monkey being endlessly roasted in a pit and never dying? Insanity…

    • Replies: @Talha
  385. dfordoom says: • Website
    @EliteCommInc.

    The Catholic Church by becoming more acceptable became more accessible to more people.

    I’m afraid I explained my point rather badly.

    If the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism more popular and to gain converts (which is how I interpreted accessible) then it failed dismally.

    My view is that the objective of Vatican II was to make Catholicism acceptable to those who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular, in the vain hope that this would help the Church to survive. In fact of course it did please the Church’s enemies but they remained implacable enemies and continued to work towards the extinction of the Church.

  386. dfordoom says: • Website
    @Talha

    I’m glad you pointed out this peculiar trait in Europeans because I can see it, but can’t figure out why such intelligent people can’t seem to figure out a middle-path approach to certain things.

    European society has a unique dynamism, a taste for innovation and exploration. I guess that inevitably brings with it chronic instability. As soon as Europeans build a successful society they begin to destroy it. And that may be why we veer from one extreme to another. Wanting to push things to an extreme can be an asset or it can be a liability. We don’t do things in a half-hearted way. When we embark on cultural suicide we do it in the grand style.

    It’s interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational. We believe we invented science for example. But in practice we’re wildly irrational and prone to emotional incontinence.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised. A feminised society is going to be emotionally unstable.

    • Replies: @Talha
  387. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    And yup you won’t find that term in there because Imam Marghinani (ra) uses the term riwayat or khabar in place of hadith – I don’t think he uses the term hadith once (I’ll ask my teacher why that is – was it because in that period that term was given preference or was is the way jurists distinguish the term as opposed to hadith scholars – don’t know) – and even if he did, it may be translated. And the translators have chosen to translate athar and use the word “report” in its place. The relevant passage I pointed to is on the top of pg 205 in the translation, saying:
    “The period is also available through a report from Ibn Abbas and Ibn Umar (God be pleased with them) a report in such cases is like a khabar (tradition from the Prophet (God bless him and grant him peace)).”

    Any serious student of this stuff will know exactly what you mean if you use terms like athar, hadith athaar, athar hadith or khabar, khabar hadith, khabar wahid, etc.

    But yeah dude, you totally got me on the exact term “hadith athaar” not being in the book – oh noezzzz! I still plan to use it anyway to refer to hadith athaar.

    I’m sure everyone here is convinced I’m a complete fraud by now. You have done your duty…

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  388. Talha says:
    @dfordoom

    These are good points.

    It’s interesting that Europeans think of themselves as being very rational.

    AAronB has some good posts on this subject talking about the myths various societies tell themselves. It’s also in some of how they perceive their own history. For instance; here and other places – I’ve been told Islam is a medieval religion.

    Now, only Europeans would use that as a pejorative because some portions of medieval were pretty damn bad in Europe. After them Enlightenment, they convinced themselves it was all bad – they had to, to be able to break from the past.

    For us, medieval was pretty darn good – we were top of the world – so we don’t see it as an insult. Thus we can more reasonably negotiate with the past and its traditions (like the fact that people like myself still study 12th century texts while managing IT development teams) as we meet the future.

    It’s like the different experience that a popular jock has going through high school and some pimply-faced nerdy trekkie. The jock’s probably going to look back on that period with nostalgia, while the trekkie is going to hate looking back and probably convince himself that he was overweight too.

    Perhaps European society has also always been too feminised.

    I don’t know about always, but I would certainly agree that it is now. You know, I wonder – never thought of this before – if a lot of this has to do with the aftermath of WW2. I mean millions upon millions of young men died – and I would assume that the more brave and masculine you were, the better chance you had to die and being more cowardly and reticent would have actually given you a distinct survival advantage.

    Like I’ve never understood why Europeans often look at the masculine trait of virility as a bad thing . Is it because of historic monasticism in the church?

    Peace.

  389. @attilathehen

    I am not sure what you are talking about. I may not agree with the comments being made. However, it is clear that the positions expressed are based on a doctrine that serves as foundation from the Qu’ran. Despite the Qu’ran’s view of Heaven and tempted though I am to be treated in such wedded bliss, I am not going to run off to be Muslim.

    If I stated note the foundation and source for that belief. I am confident based on demonstrated , references would be made as to why said belief is held.

    If there is anything in scripture that supports you IQ, color, status, genetic advocacy, and the segregation in heaven hell more on earth — our conversation would be different.

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  390. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Well I study it in the Arabic.

    What kind of an idiot posts a link to an Arabic language site on an English language forum where hardly anyone knows Arabic?

    And my tariqah does silent dhikr – we never use musical instruments; according to the ruling my teachers follow, it’s prohibited.

    So you agree that the many Sufis who use musical instruments such as Rumi’s dancing dervishes will be “turned into apes and swine” as Mohammad warned in the Hadith, and “roasted in Hell” as Allah threatened in the Quran?

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage? Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    • Replies: @Talha
  391. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book – I even found the exact copy I use from the specific publishing company “Maktaba tul-Bushra”, because there are multiple printings from various publishers.

    So you agree that the many Sufis

    No. They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    Btw, what is your Sufi lineage?

    Assuming I am a “sufi” – since, by your definition, “Sufi” and “Muslim” are mutually exclusive -Naqshbandi Mujaddidi.

    Does your lineage build tombs for its saints?

    They are scattered all over the place – from Iraq to Uzbekistan to Syria. I’m not sure what you mean by “tomb”. This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi (ra) – where we get the “mujaddidi” moniker from (don’t know if it counts as a “tomb”):

    Why do need to join a Sufi lineage anyway when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah?

    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Bliss
  392. Talha says:
    @Talha

    This looks to be the structure over it which we locally call a mazar and it looks to be attached to a mosque:

    I’ve never had the pleasure to visit.

  393. @dfordoom

    I want to encourage you here, but first, I would have to note that if accessibility was key then the problems today are indicative of failure. Not so on either term.

    The failures experienced in Catholicism are rocking all mainstream churches. And it may very be mainstream faiths attempts bring in more lost at the expense of Christ’s and apostolic guidance are the cause. In addition, Christ made it clear that people who follow Christ enter by a narrow door and people who follow Christ carry the weight of the cross which by far is the burden of dying to self every day.

    Currently, if I could encourage Catholics in anything it would be to read scripture. And this, the supposed Catholic scandal was an over blown abusive castigation of one of the most intense protectors of marriage and family as well protectors of children – even those in the womb. And people of faith will have a good deal of enemies and Catholics were mightily abused on that issue.

    The failures are not the result of accessibility or acceptance. It’s the world. Have christians made mistakes as a body — absolutely. But those mistakes had nothing to do with prohibiting same sex relations, unmarried priests, or having permissible standards on relations with children or anyone else – much less protecting the same. Every mother’s son and dog who had any bone to pick with their Catholicism or Catholics in general jumped ship or jumped on a rather hollow bandwagon — to castrate that denomination. And the Church didn’t respond all that well in many situations.

  394. @EliteCommInc.

    OK, try and understand this. You make this statement: “Just curious so if I become a Muslim — when I pass — I get the virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive — tempting. So I should hang on to my celibacy — there’s hope yet. Just being silly . . .” If you take your religion seriously, this is not funny. I posted what Muslims believe about Mary (and you already know how they treat women). http://www.wnd.com/2017/01/cleric-muhammed-will-marry-virgin-mary-in-heaven/?cat_orig=faith

    “…if I become a Muslim…virgin that was nonexistent when I was alive…tempting…” you reveal yourself as a beta male who is not serious about his Christianity and you’ve given us a lot of information about your private life as it concerns women. Even a “silly” idea of 72 (w)houris shows how cowardly and weak a “man” you are. You are useless to the West.

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  395. You completely missed the point, the play and the jest. That comes from a desire to score points as opposed to having a sincere discussion.

    I am shocked . . . shocked. . .

    not at all. Good grief

    • Replies: @attilathehen
  396. @attilathehen

    It might be a serious issue if I was serious. People make their own choices about how to configure their faith. I have expressed what I believe based on scripture and my understanding of what Christ and the Apostles have to say.

    It may be worth the effort to get into a discussion about what we believe. However, I have worked to take this cue from after a debate he was involved turned into a riot.

    “I destined then to preach Christ crucified and resurrected and that alone.”

    If someone is contending something Christ does not or the Apostles don’t delineate. I* would press them on where they are advocating from. No one thus far has advocated that a life in Christ will end with any manner of marriage in heaven. Christ in a discussion with the pharisees on heaven responded to the attempt of entrapment on this question.

    Matthew 22:25-34

    25 Now there were with us seven brothers. The first died after he had married, and having no offspring, left his wife to his brother. 26 Likewise the second also, and the third, even to the seventh. 27 Last of all the woman died also. 28 Therefore, in the resurrection, whose wife of the seven will she be? For they all had her.”

    29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[a] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[b] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching.

    If you can locate scripture to support a biology first model that attends to IQ, skin color, status, education, class, ethnicity as required for faith in practice — I would certainly have to consider it.

  397. @EliteComminc.

    Many times truth is revealed in jest. You revealed yourself.

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @EliteCommInc.
  398. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    You asked me to post the books I am learning from; that’s the exact book

    Liar. I asked you to “use” the book you claimed to be studying, in which “hadith athaar” was prominent, to defend your claims about “hadith athaar”. How does posting to an Arabic language link in an English language achieve that purpose?

    No.They may repent or simply be forgiven – it’s God’s choice. He forgives and punishes who He wants.

    So you believe that Allah makes empty threats in the Quran? That his words shouldn’t be taken seriously? Is that what your Naqshbandi tariqah teaches? That smacks of blasphemy.

    This is the burial place of Shaykh Ahamd Sirhindi

    That makes you a grave worshipper, which is heresy in Islam. No sex robots in heaven for you heretic.

    Those on whom you call besides Allah are only slaves like yourselves. (Quran 7:194)

    May Allah curse the Jews and the Christians for they built the places of worship at the graves of their Prophets. (Hadith: Sahih Bukhari 427)

    The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, prohibited plastering the graves, sitting upon them, and building structures over them. (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 970)

    Nobody needs to join one – it’s not obligatory.

    There were no Sufi tariqahs at the time of the Prophet and his companions. Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    • Replies: @Talha
  399. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    More Salafi-Wahhabi talking points – wonderful!!! I already said; you have full right to believe they are the one and only correct interpretation of Islam – 100%!

    “hadith athaar”

    Yup, I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar, both in definitional terms and specific use cases from books that never use the exact term. And I will continue to use the term Hadith athaar or athar or athar hadith or even aqwaal us-Sahabah to refer to the sayings of the Companions (ra). In fact, if you’re on a thread, I might use them interchangeably within multiple posts. I might even use the same terms when quoting from a Tabi’i like Imam Alqama (ra) or Imam Hasan al-Basit (ra). Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Sufism is an innovation that appeared in a later age.

    As is compiling the Quran in written form and the formation of the Hanafi school of law.

    You seem to be very upset that I’m not agreeing to let you define the terms we use and the manner that we use them. Why is that? You’re free to define them as you like, but you’re also free to call yourself the queen of England. Are you used to browbeating people and insulting them until they let you?

    I’ve answered some of your questions about my personality, so please answer the following:
    1. You seem to be an only child, am I correct?
    2. You seem to be unmarried, correct?
    3. You seem to be someone who holds, what would popularly be considered, Left-liberal views, correct?

    I trust you will answer truthfully since you aren’t me.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  400. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    I’m telling you, go for the jugular – call him poopoo-face! Also try telling him he eats with his butt!

    He’ll come around to agreeing with you once you’ve insulted him enough. It’s never worked for me, but you are far more intelligent so I know you can make it work.

    Also his mom; say she’s a fat cuck ‘n stuff! You haven’t tried calling his mom a cuck yet. You know you wanna – c’mon…!

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  401. @attilathehen

    There is certainly truth in that interplay — I would be curious if you knew what it is. Iy never fails, egat when people either cannot support their argument, can’t understand another’s argument. Can’t get what they want — their attempted trump position is one of a personal attack. If you think the truth is that i want to be a Muslim — it’s plain you have missed the mark.

    I once joked with a couple of Mormons at becoming a momorn based on some appealing concept in traditional Mormon practice — now in dispute. The premise for the jest was based a condition noted here.

  402. @Talha

    Hmmmmm . . .

    I am an advocate of free speech. However, I prefer my conversations avoid name calling or personal attacks, even though I get your point. And I am not at all comfortable encouraging a provocateur to engage in provocative that includes my mother who in my experience was an honorable woman.

    Though I thoroughly get your point.

    • Replies: @Talha
  403. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    It was sarcasm, bro.

    You never know though – it might just work. I mean, I’m pretty sure you haven’t been called poopoo-face in a debate – so that may just change your worldview.

    Bliss keeps on calling me a liar, but that doesn’t seem to be working, so maybe he can call me peepee-face.

    Peace.

  404. @Talha

    A cuck and a Christian heretic, a gruesome twosome.

    • Replies: @Talha
  405. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    Ooga booga – I’m gonna eat your kids!!!

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  406. @Talha

    As noted.

    I thoroughly got your point.

  407. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    I will continue to learn about Hadith athaar…….Doesn’t that just put a bee in your bonnet?

    Don’t flatter yourself. This is not about you, it is about what you stand for. You stand for a religion that is akin to Hotel California: you can check in any time you like, but you can never leave.

    Whoever changes his religion, kill him (Mohammad in Sahih Hadith Bukhari, 2794).

    Muslim missionaries lead innocent gullible people into this trap with the lie that Sufi spirituality is taught by Allah in the Quran, that Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions. Exposing that lie is what I am doing. What you are doing is a moral offense.

    Freedom in spiritual matters, which includes both joining and leaving a religion, is a fundamental human right.

    Btw, if you think you can save your Sufi tariqah from having its shrines attacked by Salafi suicide bombers by throwing under the bus Sufis who use musical instruments, you are deluding yourself. You will still remain guilty of the far worse innovation of grave worship. The sacrosanct final words of Allah and his Last Prophet will always hang over your head like a sword.

    • Replies: @Talha
  408. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    Thanks for more insights as to why you are not Muslim.

    Sufism was taught by Mohammad and practiced by his companions

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term. We don’t need it, you can trademark and restrict its usage as far as we are concerned. We have indigenous terms like; ilm al-ihsan, tazkiyat an-nafs, zuhud and plenty of others to define spirituality for ourselves. And every single tariqah traces its lineage back to the Prophet (pbuh) – does that upset you that we will continue to do things as we feel like? Why? Are you used to people telling you your opinion counts on any subject you care to talk about whether you are qualified to speak on it or not?

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants. Some do literally worship graves and should desist. You and Salafi-Wahahabis want to lump us all together, so?

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    Does it upset you that we don’t fit in the little boxes you and Orientalists have been trying to neatly put us into?

    Please answer my earlier three questions else I’ll assume I was accurate in my assessment, which would give quite an insight as to why you behave like you do.

    • Replies: @Bliss
  409. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    Sufism was never taught by the Prophet (pbuh) or his blessed Companions (ra) – it is, like every other “ism”, a Western term.

    You live in the West, you are writing in a western language, and you got a problem with western terms? GTFO. Why are you in this forum then? Or in this country? Moron…

    It is amusing to see you trying to show off by spouting Arabic terms here. Ditto for when you thump your chest over the worldly accomplishments of medieval Arabs or Persians. As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    We don’t worship graves – we visit them and pray for its inhabitants.

    The inhabitant of the grave in a Sufi shrine is a Sufi saint. So you are saying devotees of the saint go on pilgrimages to his grave to pray to Allah on his behalf? That is the opposite of what you all are accused of and makes no sense at all. Sinners interceding for saints. Lol.

    That is an innovation any way you try to spin it. And in Islam:

    The most evil affairs are the innovations and every innovation is an error (Hadith: Sahih Muslim 1885)

    Does it upset you that most Muslims are content to follow the opinions of erudite men like the former Grand Mufti of Egypt, Shaykh Ali Gomaa:

    https://eshaykh.com/halal_haram/building-domes-and-shrines-over-the-deceased/

    This is what should upset you: Muftis like him cannot convince orthodox muslims (Salafis) with their opinions and stop the radical ones from blowing up Sufi shrines in Egypt and massacring the worshippers. You will always have to kowtow to Mullahs, and you will never be able to appease all of them. You cannot reconcile the finality of Islam with Sufi innovations.

    • Replies: @Talha
  410. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms and refuse to let you define us? You are the first person to complain about my use of Arabic terms, why is that.

    GTFO

    Make me. This isn’t “your” country or “your” forum unless your name is Ron Unz.

    As if South Asian converts to Islam had anything to do with that.

    They didn’t; Islam is not an ethnic identity. Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    Now you are shooting all over the place hoping to hit something.

    orthodox muslims (Salafis)

    Beat that dead horse.

    Answer the three questions – you are:
    1) an only child, correct?
    2) not married, correct?
    3) left liberal, correct?

    • Replies: @Talha
    , @Bliss
  411. @dfordoom

    Post-Vatican II music has quite possibly driven away more converts than any “accessible” changes ever attracted. Someone might hear Palestrina or Tomas Luis Vittoria, and long to know what the composer believed. Could this happen with your average guitar Mass?

    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
  412. Talha says:
    @Talha

    To clarify, the term “Western” should be qualified by “non-Muslim”. Western Muslims will continue to define and use our own terms as we feel like…until we get kicked out.

  413. @Talha

    You shouldn’t make jokes like that to Attila. I don’t know if she realizes that baby-meat isn’t hallal.

    • Troll: Talha
    • Replies: @Talha
    , @attilathehen
  414. Talha says:
    @Rosamond Vincy

    Oops – sorry!!! I meant LOL!

  415. @Rosamond Vincy

    You are a stupid cuck who can’t make a funny joke. As Ayatollah Khomeini said there are no jokes in Islam. I know about the halal racket. But you for sure are haram. Your Talha’s new bud. You have revealed yourself. And, abortion is kosher in Islam. Not bad since most Muslim are black/Asian.

    • Replies: @Talha
  416. Talha says:
    @attilathehen

    I’m pretty sure somewhere, Rosamond is crying because you won’t be her friend. She might even be reassessing her entire life right now.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  417. Oh, Attila, you have no idea how tasty baby-toes and baby-backs-of-necks can be. As a friend of mine puts it, “as long as you do it sustainably….”

  418. @Talha

    Particularly 11:43-13:10.

  419. @Rosamond Vincy

    Ok . . .

    as someone who sang in all prep school male choir — them’s is fight’in words.

    LOL. Because I was just listening to John Michael Talbot and Terry Talbot this afternoon – now in fact.

    And I must say — no way.

    • Replies: @Rosamond Vincy
  420. @attilathehen

    Uhh excuse the theology of the Church was created by Christ and the apostles. There is plenty of useful information in the old testament to help explicate Christ’s mission and that of the Church.

    But those foundations for christians are in the good news and the epistles. One need not glance at the OT to know Christ or being full accordance with Christ’s theology.

    You do realize that there were small churches outside of the Catholic grasp, in fact, before Constantine, most churches were conducted in small communities. Large bodies even operated is such forms. The Church is not just the Catholic faith according to scripture. And nothing in scripture gives skin color the upper hand in knowing either theology or Christ.

    Nothing.

    Side note: I take faith very seriously, your comments to the contrary not withstanding.

  421. @EliteCommInc.

    To which the only possible response is:

  422. Bliss says:
    @Talha

    I have no problems with Westerners using Western terms. Muslims don’t care about non-Muslim terms; never have, never will. Why does it upset you that we use our terms

    So now, unable to defend himself in the language of the forum, the fraud is demanding that the debate be conducted in Arabic terms. He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation. Idiot.

    Those are accomplishments of Islamic or Muslim civilization.

    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians. So why is it that indian and pakistani muslims like you are always trying to boast of the achievements of arabs, persians, turks as if they were your own? It is especially obscene to see you doing that since you constantly try to suck up to alt-right racists with the “we wuz kaangs” meme.

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side, seeing how it’s the conservatives of your religion who are the worst enemies of Sufis. Your tariqah may be conservative compared to others but no Sufi tariqah will ever be anywhere close to being as conservative as the salafis.

    Answer the three questions

    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue. It is just an attempt to avoid answering the relevant questions that were asked of you but left unanswered.

    1. If “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali, why should you join one when Mohammad is the Last Messenger of Allah, not Ali? How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    2. What is the Hadith that promises hundreds of thousands of virgins in Paradise, as you claimed?

    3. If “true reality” is spiritual why does it have to be attached to the body for all eternity (the ultimate stage) in heaven or hell?

    • Replies: @Talha
  423. To wit:

    or

    • Replies: @Talha
  424. Whatever the churches failings, it is doubtful that it’s worship has cause for people to abandon the faith.

    Though, I have a hard time with christian hard rock, rock and Punk is beyond me —I leave room for Christ to visit people in places I cannot or will not go. His work will not return unto void.

  425. Talha says:
    @Bliss

    the debate

    There is no debate, I conceded your right to define terms as you wish according to how you feel. You have thus far been unable to come up with a reason why Muslims should care. There can be no debate when two sides cannot agree on baseline principle definitions.

    I’m merely answering your questions in order to show everyone else here:
    1) this is how they lost to Left-liberals in the West, by allowing them to frame the debate and control the definitions – we will not make that mistake
    2) most of which Left-liberals claim about Islam should be given any weight because they are wholly ignorant of the tradition other than some vacuous idea they have come up with

    He has begun pretending there is no such thing as translation

    Translation and definition is usually OK. In fact, I cited one such definition by the Islamic Studies Dept. at Oxford which gives a very wide and comprehensive definition of the term “Sufism”:

    http://www.oxfordislamicstudies.com/print/opr/t236/e0759

    One that I can easily work with. You’re the one that responded by the profoundly intellectual statement “You are a fake Sufi” and proceeded to support that with your definition of Sufism based on your feelz.

    And this is fine, since Western discourse seems to be unable to keep terms like “marriage” and “gender” from being infected by “muh feelz” discourse, I doubt “Sufism” can remain academically defined either. In which, case, we’ll let you have the term and it won’t change a single thing as we retreat to using our indigenous ones.

    I don’t see african or filipino christians thumping their chests over the achievements of european christians.

    Ask them why they don’t consider themselves part of wider Christendom or Christian civilization. Christians never had something that paralleled the concept of the Ummah to the degree we had – especially after the Great Schism.

    as if they were your own?

    They aren’t ours – they are the inheritance of the Ummah. I’ve always given Persians and Arabs their due – we are indebted to their efforts and they deserve our prayers:
    “…all that we identify with classical, orthodox Islam in both its Sunni and Shi’i aspects would be unimaginable in its existing historical form without extensive efforts of Persians scholars, who worked along with Arab scholars in creating that vast world of Islamic learning to which other peoples also became subsequent heirs and contributors. For this reason, the role of Persia in the elaboration of Islamic civilization and the Islamic sciences has remained central throughout history.”
    The Cambridge History of Iran, Volume 4

    http://www.unz.com/pgiraldi/who-is-the-real-enemy/?highlight=debt+persians#comment-1933223

    It is very stupid of you to think that conservatives/right-wingers are on your side

    They aren’t – yet I have had very civil and even friendly discussions with people who would love for me to leave the country tomorrow. This interaction shows me that, whatever the failings of the alt-right, the Liberal-Left is far more dangerous once they drop their “inclusive” veneer.

    as conservative as the salafis

    That’s never been the goal – “conservative” along with “liberal” or “progressive” are Western terms that change definitions. We don’t fit neatly into any category. “Conservatives” of 150 years ago would have said it is a good thing for women to cover their hair outside, now they cheer on women taking off the hijab in the streets of Iran. We don’t care for these labels – they are silly.

    None of your questions has anything to do with the issue.

    Of course it does. It gives insights into your behavior; the insults, the assumption that people will let you define their terms, etc. This is the mark of a personality that is not used to being told “no” or someone who isn’t told their uninvited (and unqualified) opinion doesn’t count for anything.

    “all tariqahs, save one, trace their their chain” to Ali

    Not what I said, I said “through whom” – every tariqah traces itself back to the Prophet (pbuh) through either Ali ibn Abi Talib (ra) or Abu Bakr (ra). Again, the fact that you did not know this speaks volumes about your lack of basic knowledge on something you are so opinionated.

    How do you reconcile the finality of Islam with the innovations of Sufi Tariqahs?

    Like we do with all innovations (bid’ah) which are classified into “praiseworthy innovation” or “blameworthy/offensive innovation” by scholars who have the requisite knowledge to make that call:

    http://islamqa.org/hanafi/daruliftaa-birmingham/19440

    What is the Hadith

    Imam Ghazali (ra) cites it in his magnum opus – the Ihya Uloom ud-Deen – which is sitting on by bookshelf in Arabic. I’m not here to play fetch for you. You found a translation for Hidayah, find an online translation for the Ihya. If you don’t care to believe me, I couldn’t care less. You’ve already called me liar multiple times so go ahead, do it again – I dare you. LOL!

    why does it have to

    Already answered that one – “has to” has nothing to do with it. God decides the parameters of the Afterlife – if He decided to reveal that it would be given some sort of physical manifestation, then that’s how it is. If you don’t like it, complain to God when you meet Him.

    Now answer the 3 questions otherwise this is the last time I respond to you.

    As I said, I’ve been humoring you to make a point to others. I don’t feel like exhausting the topic further since everyone can make their judgement based on what’s been discussed.

  426. Talha says:
    @EliteCommInc.

    The chanting is absolutely beautiful, I’ve long been a fan.

    The chanting of the Orthodox Arab Christians is also very beautiful:

    Maybe I’m partial to it because it reminds me of the chanting/dhikr in my own tradition so much. :)

  427. If Christ acknowledges a hell — I am loathe to dispute.

    But the wide breadth, depth and scope of music that encourages us to praise, worship and fellowship Christ and the Father through the Holy Spirit —- is only limited by our humanness.

  428. Some clean up here:

    If Christ acknowledges a hell — I am loathe to dispute him.

    But the breadth, depth and scope of music that encourages us to praise, worship and fellowship with Christ and the Father through and with the Holy Spirit and each other —- is only limited by our humanness.

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