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Trump Sabotages North Korea Summit to Appease the Hawks
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“During the Korean War, the US dropped more bombs on North Korea than it had dropped in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. This carpet bombing, which included 32,000 tons of napalm, often deliberately targeted civilian as well as military targets, devastating the country far beyond what was necessary to win the war. Whole cities were destroyed, with many thousands of innocent civilians killed and many more left homeless and hungry…. Dean Rusk, a supporter of the war and later secretary of state, said the United States bombed “everything that moved in North Korea, every brick standing on top of another.” ..The number of inhabitants of Pyongyang killed by bomb splinters, burnt alive and suffocated by smoke is incalculable…” (“Americans have forgotten what we did to North Korea“, Vox World)

The US-North Korea Summit in Hanoi has ended in failure just as all previous attempts at peace have ended in failure. This is by design. Washington has refused to incrementally lift the sanctions on the DPRK because sanctions are Washington’s way of prosecuting an economic war against an enemy who, for the last six and a half decades, has been the target of US hostility. In case you hadn’t noticed, US policy towards North Korea is regime change, the same as it is towards Iran, Cuba, Russia, Venezuela and any other country that doesn’t accept Washington’s moral superiority and divine right to rule the world. Economic strangulation (sanctions) is just one way that Washington cracks down on the dissidents and imposes its will with an iron fist. But don’t kid yourself, this isn’t about nuclear weapons, in fact, the Trump administration hasn’t even bothered to assemble a team of weapons inspectors to investigate probable nuclear sites. Why? Because it isn’t about nuclear weapons, it’s about regime change, it’s about inflicting maximum pain and suffering on the Korean people so they take up arms against the government and violently depose Kim and his cabinet. That’s the goal. That’s always been the goal. The blocking of heating oil, essential medicines and vital food supplies are all being used to promote social unrest, fratricidal warfare, and political anarchy. Sound familiar? It should, Washington has it down to an art.

Kim Jong Un attended the summit in Hanoi hoping that Trump could be persuaded to keep up his end of the bargain. He hoped that Trump would overrule the warmongering political class and honor the agreement he made in Singapore in June, 2018. Here’s a summary what took place at the first Summit:

“In June Kim Jong-un met U.S. President Trump in Singapore. A “freeze for freeze” – the stop of nuclear and missile testing in exchange for a stop of military maneuvers – was agreed upon. A Joint Statement was signed with a list of future tasks in similar chronological order as in the Panmunjeom Declaration (numbering added):

President Trump and Chairman Kim Jong Un conducted a comprehensive, in-depth and sincere exchange of opinions on the issues related to

1. the establishment of new US-DPRK relations and

2. the building of a lasting and robust peace regime on the Korean Peninsula. President Trump committed

3. to provide security guarantees to the DPRK, and Chairman Kim Jong Un [3b] reaffirmed his firm and unwavering commitment to complete denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula.

(“Pyongyang Talks – How Pompeo Put The Cart Before The Horse”, Moon of Alabama)

This is the basic outline of the deal between Trump and Kim. Now whatever readers may think of Kim Jong-un, he’s not a fool. He did not agree to terminate all nuclear and missile testing, and decommission his nuclear arsenal for nothing. A deal was made to normalize relations and create a “robust peace regime” on the peninsula followed by a phased decommissioning of nuclear weapons. Trump made this deal and, now, he has broken the deal, just as the United States has broken similar deals in the past, like the Agreed Framework under President Bill Clinton. Here’s a bit of background on the AF from a Washington Post editorial by Jimmy Carter (November 24, 2010):

“…in September 2005, an agreement … reaffirmed the basic premises of the 1994 accord. (The Agreed Framework) Its text included denuclearization of the Korean Peninsula, a pledge of non-aggression by the United States and steps to evolve a permanent peace agreement to replace the U.S.-North Korean-Chinese cease-fire that has been in effect since July 1953. Unfortunately, no substantive progress has been made since 2005…

“This past July I was invited to return to Pyongyang to secure the release of an American, Aijalon Gomes, with the proviso that my visit would last long enough for substantive talks with top North Korean officials. They spelled out in detail their desire to develop a denuclearized Korean Peninsula and a permanent cease-fire, based on the 1994 agreements and the terms adopted by the six powers in September 2005…

“North Korean officials have given the same message to other recent American visitors and have permitted access by nuclear experts to an advanced facility for purifying uranium. The same officials had made it clear to me that this array of centrifuges would be ‘on the table’ for discussions with the United States, although uranium purification – a very slow process – was not covered in the 1994 agreements.

“Pyongyang has sent a consistent message that during direct talks with the United States, it is ready to conclude an agreement to end its nuclear programs, put them all under IAEA inspection and conclude a permanent peace treaty to replace the ‘temporary’ cease-fire of 1953. We should consider responding to this offer. The unfortunate alternative is for North Koreans to take whatever actions they consider necessary to defend themselves from what they claim to fear most: a military attack supported by the United States, along with efforts to change the political regime.” (“North Korea’s consistent message to the U.S.”, President Jimmy Carter, Washington Post)

This is just one of many agreements brushed aside by the foreign policy establishment and their bloodthirsty allies in the White House. There have been others as well, like this recent proposal by Russia that would have dismantled Pyongyang’s primary nuclear enrichment facility and peacefully ended the threat of nuclear weapons development in the north. Here’s a blurb from an article by Melvin Goodman at Counterpunch:

“According to The Washington Post, Russia made a secret proposal to North Korea last fall to advance negotiations between Washington and Pyongyang regarding North Korea’s nuclear weapons program. Moscow offered North Korea a nuclear power plant in return for the dismantling of Pyongyang’s nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles. Russia would operate the nuclear plant and transfer all byproducts and waste back to Russia so that North Korea could not exploit the plant to build nuclear weapons.

The idea of trading off a nuclear power plant for a dismantling of nuclear weaponry is not a new one. President Bill Clinton negotiated an arms control agreement with North Korea in 1994, promising Pyongyang two light-water reactors in return for a nuclear freeze. Construction on the site for the reactors began in the 1990s, but the Pentagon and the Nuclear Regulatory Commission blocked delivery of the reactors. As a result, North Korea eventually walked away from the agreement in the first years of the Bush administration.” (“Russia’s Proposal for North Korean Denuclearization: Will It Survive John Bolton?”, Counterpunch)

Now if nuclear weapons were Washington’s main concern, then they had plenty of opportunities to deal with them. But the nukes were not the top priority, were they? The top priority was crushing the regime by any means possible and replacing it with a compliant stooge who would do Washington’s bidding. That’s the real objective. Here’s more from Thursday’s New York Times:

“Mr. Kim had offered to dismantle the North’s most important nuclear facility (Yongbyon) if the United States lifted the harsh sanctions imposed on his nation…“It was about the sanctions,” Mr. Trump said. “Basically they wanted the sanctions lifted in their entirety, but we couldn’t do that.”…

But in a late-night news conference, North Korea’s foreign minister, Ri Yong-ho, contradicted Mr. Trump’s account, saying the North had asked only for some sanctions to be lifted — those that affect ordinary people — in exchange for “permanently and completely” dismantling the main facility in the presence of American experts…(“Trump’s Talks With Kim Jong-un Collapse, and Both Sides Point Fingers”, New York Times)

So it looks like Trump lied to the media about Kim’s demands.(which is par for the course) But, keep in mind, Kim did not ask for anything material from thee US, just an easing of some of the sanctions to reciprocate for the many steps he had taken to normalize relations. But Trump refused to make any good faith gesture at all, he simply stuck to the administration’s hardline approach that stipulates that sanctions will not be lifted until there is complete, verifiable denuclearisation. No wiggle room at all. Even so, Kim said that he would not resume his nuclear and ballistic missile testing and that he would participate in any future negotiations. In other words, he was slapped down by Trump, but remained stoically cooperative. Good for him.

But, why? Why would Kim continue down the path of generosity, cooperation and denuclearisation when the Trump team refused to give anything in return?

The answer to this question needs to be thoroughly analyzed so we can see what’s really going on below the radar.

Ostensibly, the Hanoi Summit looks like high-level talks between the US and North Korea, but there’s more here than meets the eye. In truth, Kim is playing to audiences in Seoul, Moscow and Beijing. In other words, his efforts at peacemaking and denuclearization have more to do with critical trading partners and allies, then they do with Donald Trump. Here’s an excerpt that helps to explain:

“Trade with China represents 57% of North Korea’s imports and 42% of its exports. …

In February 2017, China restricted all coal imports from North Korea until 2018. This is considered to be extremely harmful to the North Korean economy, as coal was the top export of the nation, and China was their top trading partner…

On 28 September 2017… China ordered all North Korean companies operating in China to cease operations within 120 days. By January 2018 customs statistics showed that trade between the two countries had fallen to the lowest level recorded.

Banking

On 7 May 2013, Bank of China, China’s biggest foreign exchange bank and other Chinese banks closed the account of North Korea’s main foreign exchange bank.

On 21 February 2016 China quietly ended financial support of North Korea without any media publicity. It is reported to be due to the fallout of relations between the two governments….”(Wikipedia)

China Sanctions Summary:

  • China destroyed the North’s import and export trade, including the North’s primary export, coal.
  • China shut down all the DPRK’s companies operating in China. (terminating the recycling of revenues back to the North.)
  • China cut off access to foreign banking. (and, thus, foreign investment)
  • China stopped providing any financial support for the North.

Get the picture? China is North Korea’s lifeline, which is why Kim is being so cooperative. Naturally, Beijing does not want the smaller states like North Korea to upset the regional balance of power by stockpiling nuclear weapons. That won’t do at all, which is why China agreed to impose sanctions on the North after Kim launched provocative nuclear tests in the fall of 2017. Bottom line: It is China that forced the DPRK to the bargaining table, not Trump. And it is China that has scripted much of Kim’s performance in Hanoi. It goes without saying that any solution to the current US-DPRK confrontation will be mapped out in Beijing too.

So what is the strategy Kim and Beijing have settled on, after all, if Washington refuses to negotiate, compromise or ease sanctions, what can be done?

Quite a bit actually, if Kim continues along the same path he is today, that is, he must continue the denuclearization process even though Trump refuses to reciprocate. He must also continue to work closely with his allies to reduce tensions, build confidence and strengthen popular support for change, collaboration and reunification. If Washington is going to be inflexible, then Kim must build a coalition for support. And, in that regard, he appears to be headed in the right direction. Here is Kim declaring his “firm will” to denuclearize the peninsula:

“We declared at home and abroad that we would neither make and test nuclear weapons any longer nor use and proliferate them, and we have taken various practical measures” toward this end. He said he is “ready to meet the U.S. president again anytime and will make efforts to obtain without fail results which can be welcomed by the international community.”

Kim’s strategy is not complicated: It’s called ‘public relations’ and he is winning the battle bigtime. Check out how Kim’s public approval has skyrocketed in South Korea after the first summit with Trump. This is form Time magazine:

“Friday’s meeting between South Korean President Moon Jae-in and Kim Jong Un prompted 78 percent of respondents to a Korea Research Center poll published this week to say they trusted the North Korean leader. That’s a far cry from the 10 percent of South Koreans who said they approved of Kim in a Gallup Korea poll conducted just a month-and-a-half ago…One summit has changed the perceptions of an entire nation.”
(“Kim Jong Un Now Has a Nearly 80% Approval Rating… in South Korea”, Time)

In the United States, of course, where the “brutal dictator” meme is reiterated ad nauseam on every news program, Kim’s approval ratings are still quite low. Even so, according to a recent Quinnipiac poll, “54% of respondents said that they thought the (first) summit reduced the likelihood of a nuclear war..” So even in the US, Kim has succeeded in appearing less threatening than he was before. That is quite an accomplishment given the way he is demonized by the media.

More importantly, China and Russia, have been increasingly supportive of Kim’s efforts and think the sanctions issue should be revisited at the UN. Here’s a clip from a recent Q and A with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov:

“Pyongyang has announced and abides by a moratorium on nuclear testing and ballistic missile launches. We believe that the Security Council could at least make certain gestures by easing or lifting the sanctions where they impede the implementation of joint South Korean-North Korean projects. At their recent meeting, South Korean President Moon Jae-in and Chairman of the DPRK State Council Kim Jong-un agreed to restore the railway link between the two countries. Why shouldn’t the Security Council analyze how the sanctions regime could be modified in such a way as to incentivize the railway reunification of the two Koreas?” (Sergei Lavrov, Valdai)

The point is that Kim has settled on a plan that doesn’t involve the US that will eventually lead to the easing of sanctions. His steps towards peaceful interaction with the South accompanied by gradual denuclearisation are moving forward despite Washington’s obstructionism. And despite what brainwashed Americans may think, Kim is modern man who wants to implement dramatic reforms that will open the DPRK’s economy to foreign investment, infrastructure development, high-speed rail, mineral extraction, gas pipelines, Siberian oil, shipbuilding and private market activity. (aka–The Moon-Putin plan) Kim is neither a Marxist revolutionary nor a Communist ideologue. He is a bright, Swiss educated, basketball-loving, Karaoke singing father of three who has decided to set aside his misguided nuclear weapons program and join in a regional development plan that will modernize his country, lift his people out of poverty and draw the splintered peninsula back into one prosperous and peaceful nation. Washington should assist him in his effort.

 
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  1. The US should just butt-out. This is a regional issue best settled by regional actors: ROK, China, Russia, & Japan. And that’s exactly why the US won’t but-out.

    • Agree: L.K
  2. anon[409] • Disclaimer says:

    Shame. Trump is now a complete failure. Renegotiated NAFTA and gave us a version of TPP. Failed to get a border wall. Now wants more, not less, immigration. Cut taxes on the rich. Has done next to nothing on protecting his constituents from being deplatformed …. the only success he’s had rests with the judiciary. In time, even that accomplishment will be erased by the democrats. We need to start looking elsewhere for leadership.

    • Agree: Sick of Orcs
    • Replies: @Liberty Mike
    , @peterAUS
    , @Wally
  3. Art says:

    Kim did not have a happy face from the time he arrived. His body langue was negative.

    He knew that Trump would not go along with what he was going to present him.

    I think Kim’s military industrial complex (MIC) is too powerful – a permanent peace is the last thing they want. They have all the levers of actual power. They are not going to roll over.

    Heads will roll if there is to be peace and progress.

    Think Peace — Art

  4. ‘Since everything in North Korea had been destroyed, the air force was then sent to destroy North Korea’s dams, huge dams that controlled the nation’s water supply—a war crime for which people had been hanged in Nuremberg. And these official journals … talk[ed] excitedly about how wonderful it was to see the water pouring down, digging out the valleys and the ‘Asians’ scurrying around trying to survive. The journals exulted in what this meant to those Asians—horrors beyond our imagination. It meant the destruction of their rice crop, which in turn meant starvation. How magnificent!’. Noam Chomsky

  5. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:

    And don’t forget how President Trump was made to walk back from Helsinki last summer. Just watch the awkward presser back here in Exceptionalia with Mr. Bolton seated behind him — the lights literally went out.

  6. Interesting that the odd 7,000 nuclear warheads possessed by the US and a few more by Russia are not a threat to anyone, let alone world peace. Not to mention France, Britain, India, Pakistan, Israel and China. Yes, the paltry handful NK nukes and the nonexistent Iranian ones constitute a real threat to world peace. Are most Americans really aware that they are being led by a gang of thugs and gangsters?

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
  7. Willem says:

    Long time since I saw an article from Mije Whitney. Don’t know what happened in the meantime, but it is good to see you back, Mike

    • Replies: @jo6pac
  8. While i have some reservations concerning the import’s against Pres. trump’s good faith. I thin k the analysis here makes sense and reflects our own Intransigence. It sounds very much like the pattern of old that yielded no results.

    I am not sure the recounting of what went one concerning the previous nuclear deal is as truncated. But what is clear is that there was no evidence that N. Korea had violated any part of the deal and our suspicions that caused a halt to deliver was unfounded, but destroyed any credibility that admin had with N. Korea.

    I don’t think the president of S. Korea has any intention of abandoning a process that has proven gradually to yield healthy fruit over the last 20 years.

    There’s time, at least the dynamic has changed regarding talks. Time will tell.

  9. swamped says:

    “Kim is neither a Marxist revolutionary nor a Communist ideologue. He is a bright, Swiss educated, basketball-loving, Karaoke singing father of three who”…executed his own uncle-in-law after arresting him at a party meeting on live television. Maybe that’s what a Swiss education does for you or maybe darling Kim isn’t just your average cute &cuddly Karaoke-singing father of three. Trust him if you want – the world can always use more peace – but don’t sketch him as some sort of harmless little muppet. Has he really decided to set aside his misguided nuclear weapons program for good? Indications are that North Koreans want to secretly hold some in reserve. Maybe they should. “Gradual denuclearization’ could turn out to be a very drawn out process. “And despite what brainwashed Americans may think”..they’re probably still not as intentionally brainwashed as North Koreans.
    IF(!) Kim really has “decided to set aside his misguided nuclear weapons program and join in a regional development plan that will modernize his country, lift his people out of poverty and draw the splintered peninsula back into one prosperous and peaceful nation”, it’s probably not so that he can then just quietly step aside & let a democratically elected govt. take over in North Korea.
    So it “looks like Trump lied to the media about Kim’s demands” only if you’re eager to take the un-corroborated word for it of North Korea’s foreign minister, Ri Yong-ho. Probably not the best reason for Washington to assist Kim in his still vague efforts for a re-set in relations. The Russian proposal may be a little more realistic for both sides:”that the Security Council could at least make certain gestures by easing or lifting the sanctions where they impede the implementation of joint South Korean-North Korean projects”.Whoever would reject such a modest gesture as that can’t be serious about peace.

  10. Anonymous[153] • Disclaimer says:

    >misguided nuclear program
    deterrence is what keeps kim alive; if he did not have thousands of artillery pieces pointed at Seoul, we would have seeen “operation korean freedom” years ago. nuclear weapons are a logical extension of that, and countries in crosshairs of great powers, giving up nukes, like libya, ukraine, south africa, etc. tend to not do very well after the fact…

  11. The president has neither the strength of mind nor of character to move beyond his absolutist negotiating stance (“give me everything first and you might end up with a few crumbs”) to ever seize an opportunity and actually conclude a deal.

    Even the slightest hint of criticism sends his cowardly corpulence scurrying back into his sanctions bunker as quickly as his overburdened heel spurs will allow. After all, it’s the only place he feels safe. “See, see – I didn’t give up a thing. I’m a really smart guy” he bleats and bleats and bleats – never actually gaining anything by never getting anything done.

    Squandering diplomatic and policy opportunities like he did his education and inheritance is par for the course from this bloated buffoon.

    Still, when your sole “friend” and “advisor” on the world stage is bibi…

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
    • Replies: @Windwaves
  12. Is anybody really surprised that this summit ended thusly? Did anybody really believe that Bolton and Pompeo were going to permit Trump some dovish concession to the DPRK?

    The US’ involvement as a whole in Korea is a curse of its own making. They should never have severed it from the Empire of Japan, much less effect the partition that left lasting trauma upon both nations of that peninsula. What possible gain did we have from doing this? Especially given that at least those in the present DPRK were much freer and prosperous ruled by the Japanese than under the Kim family.

    This all was especially pointless given that the Koreans were, contrary to postwar myth, enthusiastic participants in the Japanese imperial project. One need only pore over documents from the former Japanese Ministry of Colonial Affairs (currently housed in Japan’s National Diet Library) to confirm this. The Japanese had high praise for the patriotic fervor of Koreans, especially those in the working classes, rural classes, and generally those living in the north. Often times they reported that their enthusiasm outstripped that of ethnic Japanese, which apparently was worrying for the Home Ministry. But I digress.

    At this point, the US should simply accept that the reality of a nuclear-armed DPRK. The Kim regime, while brutal to its people, is not suicidal. Their armaments are purely defensive—an argument our government tacitly accepts from another small country on the Asian continent. Then again, the DPRK does not own lawmakers and bureaucrats from both major parties. Money talks…

    • Replies: @Anonymous
  13. “The top priority was crushing the regime by any means possible and replacing it with a compliant stooge who would do Washington’s bidding. That’s the real objective.”

    Hey, it’s working with at least 34 other countries.

    I read or hear stories in the Western media that Kim had an old girlfriend executed, and then she pops up alive and well on state TV. In fact, the execution was described in the West thusly:

    “They were executed with machine guns while the key members of the Unhasu Orchestra, Wangjaesan Light Band and Moranbong Band as well as the families of the victims looked on,” sources reportedly said at the time.

    After that, it is hard to believe stories about uncles and others being executed with anti-aircraft guns or packs of dogs.

    I’m not saying Kim is a nice guy, because I don’t know the truth and I’m apparently not getting it from the Western media, but I’m willing to believe he might actually not want to see the DPRK’s people being beaten down by the sanctions, which, BTW, when targeted at the civilian population of a country, are a crime against humanity in the very sense such was defined in the London Charter for the Nuremburg trials.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  14. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:

    Kim will not give up nukes.

    US can veto lifting of sanctions.

  15. The author does not recognize the real function of the summit in HANOI.

    Kim took a large portion of his inner cicrcle of power along with him on that special train. More than 3000km along the coast of China – the richest part of China.

    From the border-town of Dong Dang all the way to Hanoi. From Vietnam’s backwater to the Northern Industrial heart of Vietnam – the closer to Hanoi the more factories, new urban housing, family-shops pop up. Even with the road closed off for Kim & his crew, they could how many scooters/motorbikes are along the streets.

    Trump left, but Kim stays until Saturday.

    It’s not Trump, who needs to make the leap of faith – it’s Kim’s inner circle, the people, who could pose a threat to Kim himself.

    Vietnam needs to do the convincing, not Trump. The Chinese couldn’t convince Sung & Il.

    The Vietnamese & Americans negotiated from 1975 to 1994. Real talks only happened between 1987 to 1994. Sanctions were only lifted on 1994.

    Trump has no friends in that scumhive called Washtingon D.C. Something readers of Unz.com know.

    • Replies: @Liberty Mike
    , @pogohere
  16. And Koreans still don’t believe Americans & their promises? Hmmm…..very strange, history has shown them that US is such a humanitarian force, Red Cross on steroids.

  17. onebornfree says: • Website

    Big picture – it’s all theater :

    “Because they are all ultimately funded via both direct and indirect theft [taxes], and counterfeiting [central bank monopolies], all governments are essentially, at their very cores, 100% corrupt criminal scams which cannot be “reformed”,”improved”, nor “limited” in scope, simply because of their innate criminal nature.” http://onebornfree-mythbusters.blogspot.com/

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  18. smokey says:

    MW.. please US policy towards North Korea is regime change, the same as it is towards Iran, Cuba, Russia, Venezuela and any other country that doesn’t accept Washington’s moral superiority and divine right to rule the world. Economic strangulation …

    ITS called EZ ( Economic Zionism) which is the system of economics that explains most use of force events since way back when. Monarchy< EZ<<Monarchy mediated by an Aristocracy<Capitalism<Socialism..

    The essential component of EZ is that it is economics that tolerates no competition. One way or another competition must be eliminated.. Eventually NK will be taken out, I predict. Historically two categories for eliminating competition seem to apply

    A. Methods that involve Soft elimination of competition. patents, copyrights, private property rights, and transfers of state and public domain resources and public service obligations (like sewer, water, garbage, streets, bridges, education, etc.) to private personal or corporate ownership, sanctions, private control of public attitude by use of propaganda, private controlled use mind control technology, engineered weather, blockades designed to starve entire populations, selection for opportunities in jobs, education, finance, and other.

    B. Methods that involve Hard elimination of competition Here the use of force is employed. Murder, military invasion, bombing, poisoning, weaponized high technology, invasion and take over of law making function and decision making functions of Armed rule making nation state Structures (ARMS) and direct their military and other resources to help eliminate competition from other nation states.
    Especially vulnerable are Nation States that refuse to give up their resources, or that fail to accede to demands to transfer control of business interest to private EZ ownership (Chicago style offers –that are not easily refused) such as “if you accept this $1 for your $100 million a year business now: sign here ___ , you can prevent unfortunate accidents from happening to your person, family and you can prevent fires and explosions from happening to your business”.

    EZ controlled ARMS are easy to spot.

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  19. Mike P says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    “How magnificent!” Noam Chomsky

    Chomsky is a shyster and a hypocrite. If he knows and cares so much about what the Americans did in NK, how come he won’t mention biological warfare? It is well documented – much like the use of explosives and the Israeli role in 9/11, which he also studiously ignores.

  20. @Art

    “I think Kim’s military industrial complex (MIC) is too powerful – a permanent peace is the last thing they want. They have all the levers of actual power. They are not going to roll over.”

    I think you meant Trump’s MIC … if Kim is one-tenth the ruthless dictator they tell us he is, his MIC is no problem.

    • Replies: @anonymous
    , @Art
  21. anonymous[340] • Disclaimer says:
    @The Alarmist

    I hope to read a response from Art. But can’t both nations be under the control of a military-industrial complex?

  22. @anon

    Only fools who would settle for one middle finger, but not two, flashed at other members of the swamp, would fall for a conman like Trump.

    Trump promised to drain the swamp. He has done just the opposite. In fact, one could argue that there has been no President more friendly to the swamp and its ((( ecosystem ))) than Trump. Do we need to post the veritable salmagundi of reprobates who the serial bankrupt has appointed to fleece the folks? If one were truly committed to draining the swamp, one would not, under any circumstances, have tapped the following evildoers:

    WIlbur Ross

    General Flynn

    Mike Pompeo

    General McMasters

    Elliot Abrams

    John Bolton – yes, both Fred Reed and Kim Jong Un could kick his ass

    Jared Kushner

    Ivanka

    Nikki Haley

    Wendy Teramoto

    James D. Ray

    Leonard Wolfson

    Steve Mnuchin

    Rudy Julie-Annie

    Tom Price

    Just a few, off the top of my head.

    Worse, there are those here who have heralded, and continue to do so, Trump’s election as some kind of watershed event signaling the demise of the deep state and Empire. Some have even touted Trump’s “accomplishments” to justify their ignorance. We all know that those “accomplishments” are propaganda or predicated upon believing the Empire’s numbers.

    Trump is not good for the white man or liberty.

    • Agree: RVBlake
    • Replies: @follyofwar
  23. @Another German Reader

    Take the blinders off…Trump is part of the scumhive.

  24. This article is such patently blatant propaganda, it’s embarrassing to even comment on it, let alone admit I actually read it.

    • Agree: TKK
    • Troll: follyofwar
  25. Middling wits like Vox Day are not going to save the day.

    Anybody who regards Donald Trump as the “God Emperor” is a few fries short of a happy meal.

  26. The top priority was crushing the regime by any means possible and replacing it with a compliant stooge who would do Washington’s [and the Zio-Commie movement’s ] bidding. That’s the real objective.

    Plainly that’s been one of the main objectives for over a century. In fact, that’s why Woodrow Wilson and all the rest of the prezudints since then have been appointed puppet by the global bankster mafia. Of course it’s always tenderly and magnanimously sold as liberty, security, and more jobs for the proles who fall for the fraud every time.

    So, can anything effective be done about it?

  27. The war mongering U.S. should come as no surprise to anyone who realizes that the U.S. government is controlled lock stock and gun barrel by the Zionists who have kept Americans in perpetual war since the Zionists took over the U.S. gov in 1913 via their privately owned FED and IRS and then came the perpetual wars for perpetual profit for the Zionist banking kabal and the Zionist controlled MIC.

    North Korea is just another target of the Zionists and the only reason that North Korea has survived and the Zionist controlled U.S. has not given them the Iraq/Libya/Syria/Afghanistan treatment of bombing and mass killing of civilians is that the North is backed by China and no way in hell is China going to allow the North to go under to the U.S. Zionist warmongers as China proved this once and is willing to do so again.

    If anyone is interested read JFK, the CIA and Vietnam by Col. L. Fletcher Prouty where Prouty lays out how the Korean War and the Vietnam War were planned immediately following the end of WWII and this was Zionist policy of continual war for continual Zionist banking kabal profits and humanity be damned!

    Col. Proutys book can be had at Amazon or Barnes and Noble and is a wake up call to all patriot Americans about the warmongers who control our government.

    • Replies: @smokey
  28. @Liberty Mike

    You forgot to mention Trump’s first choice after he became the GOP nominee, a man whom he cannot fire, Christian-Zionist VP Mike Pence. He’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
    • Replies: @Rogue
  29. @The Alarmist

    Nice catch and equally fine comment!

  30. @onebornfree

    All of that should be glaringly obvious to everyone by now. Can you explain why, even after it’s been pointed out, people still have faith and hope?

    For the life of me, I certainly cannot.

    • Agree: renfro
    • Replies: @follyofwar
    , @onebornfree
  31. @Godfree Roberts

    Vietnam was destroyed… can old Henry be tried for war crimes? Who has got the balls to do it? And as to the moral superiority of Washington and divine right to rule business, whose Washington are we talking about here, the billionaires’ or the natives?

    • Replies: @follyofwar
  32. @smokey

    “Economic Zionism.” I like that.

    You are not blowing smoke!

  33. China is too dependent on US markets for continuation of their industrialization.
    Russia is building direct rail line from Siberia to North Korea.
    How it is coming this Chinese ” One link one road” around Eurasia?
    Nobody knows!
    BTW Who could trust US after what they did to Libya?

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  34. @Reuben Kaspate

    I’d be satisfied if Queen Hillary would be prosecuted for what she did to Libya. Apparently she’s as untouchable as the old Jew Kissinger.

    • Replies: @Reuben Kaspate
  35. @jacques sheete

    We can have faith and hope that the US Empire appears to be slowly crumbling. The buffoon Mr. Trump is enabling it. More and more countries are starting to realize that the US is the main enemy of world peace. More countries are becoming the economic equal of the US. With it cascading and unpayable debt, and its growing isolation from the community of nations, the days of the Hegemon bully may be numbered.

  36. I googled the term and found this , which I think is interesting.

    Unfortunately the term has another meaning…

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  37. Although I am no fan of Trump, I think accusing his of sabotaging the summit with NK is wrong. American “diplomacy” has years ago degenerated from normal give and take to “do what I say, or else”. Thus, this meeting was doomed before it even started, as the US is not willing to compromise and do anything as a reward for Kim. I am no fan of Kim, either, but his reluctance to capitulate unconditionally getting nothing in return is understandable. Not to mention that very recent examples of Saddam and Ghaddafi show what happens to leaders that give an inch to the Empire.

  38. mr meener says:

    ever since the simpleton george “magog” bush was ordered by the jews to include NK in the axis of evil we have stepped uptrying to take them out. NK tried to build a reactor in syria and pissrael bombed it. also NK accused of giving Iran nuke tech. THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT…ISRAEL

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  39. Agent76 says:

    October 18, 1994 Remarks on the Nuclear Agreement With North Korea William J. Clinton

    Good afternoon. I am pleased that the United States and North Korea yesterday reached agreement on the text of a framework document on North Korea’s nuclear program.

    http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=49319

    Apr 30, 2017 What The U.S. Wants You To Forget About North Korea

    On today’s edition of “WHY ISN’T ANYONE TALKING ABOUT THIS,” Did you know that the United States dropped more bombs on North Korea in the 1950s than it did on the entire Pacific Theater during World War II?

  40. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    BTW Who could trust US after what they did to Libya?

    True.

    This works too,

    BTW Who could trust US after what they did to _____(fill in the blank)_______?

    • Agree: Agent76
  41. @follyofwar

    Thank you.

    I have faith!!! 😉

  42. @jacques sheete

    Ooops! That was meant for “smokey,” comment #18.

  43. ““During the Korean War, the US dropped more bombs on North Korea than it had dropped in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. This carpet bombing, which included 32,000 tons of napalm, often deliberately targeted civilian as well as military targets, devastating the country far beyond what was necessary to win the war.”

    And yet, why would North Korean refugees move toward UN forces when they could have the full weight of the Russo-Sino forces to protect them just by waiting in place?

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  44. @AnonFromTN

    “Although I am no fan of Trump, I think accusing his of sabotaging the summit with NK is wrong. American “diplomacy” has years ago degenerated from normal give and take to ‘do what I say, or else’.”

    Well if I ever get caught red-handed robbing a bank or something like that, I want you on the jury. After all, how can I be held personally responsible for my own moral choice to rob the bank when other people have been robbing banks forever, right?

    • Replies: @Der ex-Deutsche
  45. @AnonFromTN

    American “diplomacy” has years ago degenerated from normal give and take to “do what I say, or else”.

    While I agree with your fine comment, I’d like to point out that ‘Merkin “diplomacy” was pretty much always degenerate even before extortionist Perry’s Black Ship “gunboat diplomacy.” In the 1830s, the Far Eastern squadron of the U.S. Navy sent several missions from its regional base in Guangzhou (Canton), China to Japan, which was closed to the US at the time and I’m not convinced that the visits were exactly friendly in nature.

  46. Half-Jap says:
    @Godfree Roberts

    Appreciate your work, Roberts.
    But yeah, we Japs probably built that damned damn dam. 😛 (esp. if it’s the Sui-ho) Fckin leave it to the Americans to do the worst, despite perrenial rhetoric to the contrary. Hell, most everything great we built over there, from schools to dams, and of course the S. Koreans have the gall to ask for more after we were bombed thoroughly, for which they have been given. The North and South spit on us for our investments. Such great people. Half of us didn’t even want to Japanize them until one of their own assassinated the greatest opponent of annexation, Hirofumi Ito. Setup? Who knows.
    Makes me wonder if they’ve heard of King Leopold. Might have turned out better if we took that extractive genocidal approach, instead of building up such traditionalist backwater that great Chin Dynasty didn’t care much for. Yeah, probably should have left them the hell alone to develop themselves from the absolutist feudal state that suppressed the Korean native language and left the people in squalor for centuries.
    I hope Abe just breaks the mold and understand that there is a strategic gain by taking in Kim before the US or South does, and especially away from China. Friggin whole point of the war with Czarist Russia….

    • Replies: @Joe Wong
  47. @AnonFromTN

    Not knowing what is in Trump’s heart, I think it is possible he was sabotaged by the neocon extremists he stupidly appointed – Bolton and Pompeo. Trump, I think, thought he could get something for his legacy (why else would he fly to Hanoi to come away with nothing?), but he is no match for the permanent government – the deeply entrenched Deep State.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  48. smokey says:
    @DESERT FOX

    The war mongering U.S. should come as no surprise to anyone who realizes that the U.S. government is controlled lock stock and gun barrel by the Zionists who have kept Americans in perpetual war since the Zionists took over the U.S. gov in 1913 via their privately owned FED and IRS and then came the perpetual wars for perpetual profit for the Zionist banking kabal and the Zionist controlled MIC.

    Remember before the USA, was the Roman Holy Empire, then the Dutch, then the British Colonial Empire (made up of colonies privately owned by a few Economic Zionist) for nearly ever the Economic Zionist ketp the British and the French at war..with Germany, Russia.. and others in between, before oil, it was extract everything colonialism( goods in far away colonies were extracted or produced by slaves and transported to an area where benefit of trade was directed to the EZ. Shipping required a navy, Britain had the best, and The Indies companies were great trader companies.
    Germany challenged that Navy that protected the trade the EZ were interested in (British, French ,and colonial American now USA) and worse Germany challenged or was in strong competition with Economic Zionism for access to the Ottoman Oil …Monopoly control over everyone and everything explains Economic Zionism… .EZ takes control of governments and it influences many more… destroying Germany, weaponizing Jewish immigration and eliminating the Ottoman empire to get at the Arab oil is a recent history of Economic Zionism. EZ gave birth to a military establishment in the old Ottoman Empire (Syria, Palestine, Saudia Arabia, Persia(Iran)) which is now called Israel. Israel is a globally produced product of Economic Zionism (EZ), it is the Middle East Center of take the oil (means also to control the population dynamics and to privatize and own the oil rich lands) from the Arab homeland. Globalism suggest trade in a shared world, Economic Zionism suggest a monopoly on world trade. I remind that EC is transparent to race, religion, and many ideologies; EC is a system of economics that sucks into its control everything.

    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  49. According to General Curtis LeMay, the US, the most peace loving country in the history of the world, destroyed every building in North Korea and many in South Korea and killed over one third of its population. Not satisfied with that act of peacefulness, the US went to Viet Nam and killed over 3 million threats to the USA, ending those threats forever. Deep State Trump was appointed to spend trillions protecting Japan and South Korea from tiny North Korea. The taxpayers close their eyes to reality and follow their leaders, spending 90% of their taxes on war and “homeland defense,” while the poor suffer so that rich can profit.

    North Korea never has attacked another country, yet the UN sanctions it repeatedly. The US goes around the world destroying countries for profit and no one dares sanction them lest they become next. The American voting class has slaughtered more innocent people than all the terrorists in the history of the world combined. Voter = Baby Killer.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  50. @follyofwar

    IOW, whatever orange clown does (or fails to do), we can always rest assured that he’s not responsible. It’s always somebody else’s fault.

  51. SafeNow says:

    Let’s remember (recall the Olympics) that Kim and his inner circle have 100 personal cheerleaders. Trump, Bolton, and Pompeo know this, and further, they have zero personal cheerleaders. I can’t prove it, but I think this is a big factor in the Trump team’s policy. Probably on a subconscious level. High school is never over.

  52. @smokey

    The key
    to liberating we goyim from Zionist control is to eliminate the Zionist privately owned and UNCONSTITUTIONAL FED and IRS that creates money out of thin air and creates debt for every dollar created and then taxes any gains on this ether created money all for the benefit of the Zionist banking kabal and to go back to having the U.S. gov issue the currency as it was prior to 1913.

    Every country in the world is under Zionist control and the few that were not were destroyed like Libya and Iraq and Syria. As Nathan Rothschild infamously said, I care not what puppet is placed on the throne of England for the man who controls the currency controls the British Empire and I am that man!

    The Zionists also control the central bank of central banks, the BIS in Basel Switzerland and of course the IMF, the WORLD BANK and all off shoots of the same.

    By the way we are close to being under a communist gov , any doubters can read the 1o planks of the communist manifesto!

    America is a Zionist plantation and we goyim are slaves on this plantation!

    • Agree: the grand wazoo
    • Replies: @the grand wazoo
  53. Art says:
    @The Alarmist

    “I think Kim’s military industrial complex (MIC) is too powerful – a permanent peace is the last thing they want. They have all the levers of actual power. They are not going to roll over.”

    I think you meant Trump’s MIC … if Kim is one-tenth the ruthless dictator they tell us he is, his MIC is no problem.

    I am basing my speculation on Kim’s demeanor – when he first got off that train, he was not happy – he looked like someone with an unwelcome task to do. In the Singapore meeting with Trump, there was a chemistry, he displayed a nice smile – this time the smile was not there from the start – he looked pretty glum until Trump left.

    I think he came to Vietnam knowing that there was going to be NO peace deal.

    It would be strange if the N Korea MIC just rolled over and said “Yay Peace – we give up power.” That would be a first.

    Hmm — when Kim took power, did he murder military leaders or relatives?

    (Of course, you are 100% correct about Trump’s US JMIC. In this case, peace with N Korea would be a help to them.)

    Think Peace — Art

  54. @never-anonymous

    Okay so lets get down to facts : We, the non-communists, and you the communists, are enemies and all of the insults and downright lies that you can come up with, all of the newspeak in typical commie fashion, none of it will alter the fact that we are mortal enemies.

    So now it is just a matter of time until this confrontation comes to a head, and then we will see who is the most resourceful, courageous and : tough. I’ll give you a clue : It won’t be you commies as you were always cowards and freaks.

    Authenticjazzman “Mensa” qualified since 1973, airborne trained US Army vet and pro jazz artist.

    • Agree: TKK
  55. Lochearn says:

    I too am very pleased to see the return of Mike W. I remember he was always wary of Trump and he has been proved to be correct.

  56. @follyofwar

    ” More and more countries are starting to realize that the US is the main enemy of world peace”

    Bullshit, fact is more and more corrupt, socialististic european countries, run by a class of grifters, non-plus ultra, are beginning to realize that their tax-bled citizens are waking up to the cold hard fact that they are not benefactors of the system, rather they are the assembly-line tax-slaves who enable the horribly over-paid politicos to wallow in their luxury, which they, the politicos are now terrified of the movement DT has kicked off which will eventually run them all out on a rail, this generating their rabid hatdred for him, after their love affair with the BC/HC/BO cabal.

    In Germany, the altruistic gov takes the first six months of every poor stiff’s pay, before he can keep anything.

    AJM

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  57. peterAUS says:
    @anon

    Trump is now a complete failure.

    We need to start looking elsewhere for leadership.

    Just leadership or, perhaps, something more? Some new ways, new directions, for example?

    Or, what’s the plan for the coming election? What, in your opinion, people who voted for Trump will do?
    1. Vote, again, for Trump.
    2. Vote for some other Republican.
    3. Vote for some Democrat.
    4. Don’t vote at all.

    Let’s say Trump wins again, keeps doing what he’s bee doing so far….what would his “base” do next election?
    1. Vote for some other Republican.
    2. Vote for some Democrat.
    3. Don’t vote at all.

    Just curious about options and possibilities.

    • Replies: @Anon
  58. TKK says:

    He is a bright, Swiss educated, basketball-loving, Karaoke singing father of three who has decided to set aside his misguided nuclear weapons program and join in a regional development plan that will modernize his country, lift his people out of poverty and draw the splintered peninsula back into one prosperous and peaceful nation. Washington should assist him in his effort.

    This has to be the tipping point of lunancy published on this site.

    Has the author read any North Korean escape reports? Even one? Wondered why North Koreans who do escape are 5 inches shorter than SK on average?

    He is the engineer of mass starvation.

    If people don’t clap and cry hysterically enough when they’ve seen his picture or see him in person, they are executed.

    He murdered his own brother with a nerve agent that causes an excruciating death.

    He is running the largest slave labor camp in the world masquerading as a country.

    His “propaganda” songs and tv shows state that his father made the earth, and the family dynasty descended from the thunder and mountains.

    He is an obese greedy repellent megalomaniac that begs for a slow torturous death.

    The author is either insane or intentionally duplicitous, to the point of criminality.

    No serious mind- even one with tinges of common sense- would extol the honor of this murderous critter.

    • Agree: MikeatMikedotMike
    • Replies: @Sowhat
  59. Sowhat says:

    Trump didn’t even expect to win according to his narrative but, I’m not so sure. One can never be sure about people running for President or any other “elected” office for that matter. We all vote and the only evidence that we obtain and with which we base our voting decisions is probably inaccurate…it’s whatever they or their opponents disseminate to the public. How factual the is evidence, ever?
    Every four years the UniParty puts up two candidates that don’t have a mind of their own. They’re influenced by their donors and their “Party.”
    IMO, they’re either subjects of the Establishment or openly treated with disdain by the Establishment. Trump was cut off by both “Parties” leaving him to fend for himself regarding a Transition Team and a Cabinet with all of his opposition constantly attempting to infiltrate and sabotage. And, all of the while, the MSM (to this day) have framed the narrative for public consumption that Trump is deranged, incompetent, misogynistic, racist, blah, blah, blah.
    All of his opposition have been successful in their efforts and Trump keeps tooting his own horn since their would be a huge vacuum if he didn’t.
    Chalk up another laughable (although I wish he wasn’t) Executive and add him to the list of other failures. We all expect too much of our government because they haven’t been our government for all of modern-day history.
    This is all proof to me that we really live with a facade of a Democratic Republic. No one represents “We, the People” anymore and they haven’t for generations. Until this generation, at least we had a semblance of liberties and freedoms. This group in D.C. has always done more tearing down of the old-school traditions and laws of the U.S. and replaced them with more authority for them and less authority for us.
    Now, I just want to be left alone with the realization that America will never be what the majority of Americans really want because it’s never even discussed.

    • Agree: Ilyana_Rozumova
    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
  60. @Authenticjazzman

    Thanks for a laugh. This is funnier than the Three stooges or any stand-up comedy.

    So, who destroyed >80% of Hitler’s army? How come German army lost more soldiers trying to capture “Pavlov’s house” in Stalingrad than capturing the whole France? Who pulverized Japanese Army at lake Khasan in 1938, at Khalkhin Gol in 1939, and in Manchuria in 1945? On the other hand, who were the heroes running from Vietnam with their tails between their legs? When these heroes were engaged in rooftop evacuation, who were they running from? Who are the heroes hiding with all their sophisticated and ridiculously expensive toys behind the walls of their heavily fortified bases in Afghanistan from savages armed with nothing more than automatic rifles? Who were the heroic military advisors that ran so fast from Georgia in 2008 towards Azerbaijan border that Russian Army did not even encounter any of them? A lot of Georgian chickens were heroically run over in the process.

    I can continue in this vein, but what’s the point? Any reasonably intelligent person would get the drift, whereas people lacking intelligence are hopeless, anyway.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
    , @Wally
  61. Sowhat says:
    @TKK

    You’re correct and the same applies to this country with regard to what is said and what is really intended. We have a better life than most other countries but, not all. We get a constant spoon-feed of the propaganda about how free we are and it tastes so good.

    • Replies: @TKK
  62. @AnonFromTN

    ” So who destroyed 80% of Hitler’s army?

    The “heroic” Russians would have not have “destroyed” anything without the millions of tons of American war supplies, weaponry, vehicles, planes, ammunition, foodstuffs, supplied to them by through the American lend-lease program, period.

    My own dear mother having been one of the famed “Rosies” working around the clock in war plants. My mom was assembling “bazookas”, in a Detroit plant, for delivery to the Russians, and she could recall Russian officers being escorted through the factory on various occasions.

    Look you leftist folks are marked by your psychopathic propensity to glorify and romanticize the Russians, and you twist and distort any and all facts to get your sick ” I hate America and communism is better” point across.

    As for the Viet Nam issue : you have no fricking clue as to what you are blathering about, you whole driving force being your hate for the US.

    AJM

  63. Rogue says:
    @follyofwar

    Christian-Zionist VP Mike Pence. He’s a wolf in sheep’s clothing.

    Is he though?

    I know he’s not generally liked on UR but, as far as I can tell, he does have personal integrity. That I believe still counts for something. By contrast, as much as I used to be a fanboy of the Donald, personal integrity has probably never been his strong point.

    Apparently, the Trump Admin is now in the business of “decriminalizing” homosexuality worldwide. Is this true? Does anyone know for sure? If true, then Trump is the “wolf in sheep’s clothing.”

    Maybe the Trump train should derail and VP Pence take over.

    Could a Pence Admin be any worse?

    • Replies: @follyofwar
    , @republic
  64. Anon[300] • Disclaimer says:
    @peterAUS

    Form homogeneous unofficial nations within nations where we can locally have some control over a few things that affect us – us, not the whole damn world. And these potential communities should be self-supporting, tight-lipped, and off the radar.

    • Replies: @peterAUS
  65. TKK says:
    @Sowhat

    You are right.

    I used to read Stephen King books. Then a friend alerted me to his ravings on Twitter. He recently wrote: Trump is a dictator.

    Can you image what would happen to a NK Michael Cohen and all his subsequent generations if he called Fat Kim a liar and a con man… in any forum?

    The punishments would make the ravings of Revalations a Dr. Seus book.

    A NK Kathy Griffin holding up a Kim head on social media?

    Trump doesn’t even have the power of a mayor. Trump has no power. None. He can’t even put the screws to pathetic Cohen.

    And- he apparently does not even have the street smarts we hoped. There are men in Brighton Beach who would have neutralized Cohen for free.

    This gives me no pleasure- that he has failed. He needs to kick idiotic Jared and Ivanka to the curb and go crazy.

    Release classified info- all of it that embarrasses any politician, right up to national security , indict the Clintons and their acolytes , legalize all drugs and use the proceeds to build the wall to stop ALL immigration.

    Yes- illegal immigrants are an emergency if I have to pay one dollar to their entitled smug faces.

    Trump did not think he would win- watch the election night. But now that he has- he needs to go buck hog wild.

    Obama had an eight year fawning hand job. No President has been treated with such open ridicule and contempt as Trump.

    They want dictator? By God I’d give it to them in spades.

  66. peterAUS says:
    @Anon

    Form homogeneous unofficial nations within nations where we can locally have some control over a few things that affect us – us, not the whole damn world. And these potential communities should be self-supporting, tight-lipped, and off the radar.

    Sounds as a plan.

    My take: it can’t work. Especially the second sentence.

    I could work before radio, perhaps even telegraph and train. Cancel that. Never worked.
    Several times it started well and finished really badly. Doesn’t even matter, for all practical purposes.

    I guess you could be on the right track, though, by the first two words of your post. Sort of..start from there and build an idea on it. Won’t be easy building that idea and, much harder, realizing it on the ground.

    Well, there are always other options: voting into Brave New World, or worse.

    • Replies: @Sir Launcelot Canning
  67. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    Yes yankee , the world would not exist without the yankee ” help ” . The cookies of Nuland , the ” humanitarian” weapons , excuse me , I mean aid , to Venezuela …. so many ” humanitarian ” bombing to civilians , like in Corea , Germany , Vietnam ….

    You yankees came from protestant England and northern Europe . The catholic Spanish colonized the south of the USA , the indians were already there before we europeans arrived . Europeans from all over Europe made the USA . you yankee owe more , much much more , to all Europe , Russia included , that Europe owes to the USA , who the hell you think you are , rootless arrogant yankees , people without history !

  68. @Authenticjazzman

    There is nothing wrong with the US and the people who live here. There is everything wrong with the ruling elites.

    As to WWII data, I’ll stick strictly to the info available in English.

    By the end of June 1944 the United States had sent to the Soviets under lend-lease more than 11,000 planes; over 6,000 tanks and tank destroyers; and 300,000 trucks and other military vehicles (https://www.historians.org/about-aha-and-membership/aha-history-and-archives/gi-roundtable-series/pamphlets/em-13-how-shall-lend-lease-accounts-be-settled-(1945)/how-much-of-what-goods-have-we-sent-to-which-allies).

    Sounds impressive, no?

    But here are other pieces of info:
    the Soviet Union spent $192 billion. The US lend-lease around $11 billion in supplies to the Soviet Union during the war (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union_in_World_War_II).

    57,000 T-34s were in circulation by 1945 (https://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=38#history)

    The number of fighter plane IL2 produced – 36,183 (https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=134)

    This was one of several major military aircraft used by the USSR in WWII. There were others:
    La-5 – 9,920 produced (https://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=554)
    I’ll just stop here.

    Sounds less impressive, no?

    If you know something about Vietnam that others don’t, why don’t you educate us?

    BTW, you studiously avoided the issue of Afghanistan now or Japan in WWII. One wonders why.

    • Agree: renfro
    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  69. anon[228] • Disclaimer says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    we are mortal enemies.”

    Like the heathen and the Christians of Coretz or Columbus !!! Eternal enemy ??

    Poe said and then God Glory and Gold followed . Mostly Gold though .

    Authenticanna “Menstruating ” since 1973,

  70. onebornfree says: • Website
    @jacques sheete

    jacques sheete says: “Can you explain why, even after it’s been pointed out, people still have faith and hope?”

    Well, at least part of my current theory is that people simply do not wish to take complete responsibility for their own lives and then have to make changes accordingly, the results of which they would then be personally responsible for if things then went wrong .

    They perhaps instead convince themselves that it would be easier to make changes if someone [ usually the government], makes the changes for them instead, and if everything goes wrong [which it always will do once government gets involved], then the individual is somehow not then personally responsible [ even if they voted for the individual and the changes “promised”].

    So its therefor easier for the average person to completely [and often times deliberately] ignore/avoid the issue of the total criminality of the people they wish to make changes “for the better”.

    It seems to me that its all linked to deep-seated psychological issues, ultimately.

    And as you no doubt well know, the psychological state we might label ” unfailing belief in the state” has mostly been induced via brainwashing, via the state tool laughingly labeled public “education”.

    And so it goes….

    Regards, onebornfree

    • Replies: @jacques sheete
  71. ali baba says:
    @Art

    Art’s comments are ludicrous. Kim showed more cooperation than the idiot Trump. Kim has more to gain, he’s far younger while the old plug from NYC has little to live for. He’s a crook, a bum,has overstated his financial prowess and been totally obnoxious most of his life. I voted for him,the bum, but who else was there? Go ahead, Art, call Kim a dictator and insult him all you want. Trump won’t admit it but his neocon brewmasters run the show and he’s a mere puppet in their greasy hands.What a massive disappointment Trump has been.

  72. Ghali says:

    “Washington’s moral superiority and divine right to rule the world”. What is this? It should be put in inverted commas. The U.S. if far away from what it alleges to be.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  73. @Rogue

    I’m not doubting Pence’s personal integrity. In that department he is miles ahead of his boss.

    However, I think it’s more likely that he may start a shooting war against Iran than might happen under the Trump Admin. Just a week or so ago in Poland he called upon the other nations in attendance to take a more hard line stance against Teheran, but didn’t find many takers. We know Pence is an Evangelical, but if he happens to be a supporter of John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel, then things could get a little dicey. Hagee has famously called for the bombing of Iran from his pulpit.

    Trump has no ability to decriminalize homosexuality worldwide, thank god. Where did you get that idea from?

    • Replies: @annamaria
    , @Rogue
  74. republic says:
    @Rogue

    business of “decriminalizing” homosexuality

    That is a big Jewish agenda.

  75. renfro says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    As for the Viet Nam issue : you have no fricking clue as to what you are blathering about, you whole driving force being your hate for the US.

    You continue to ruin yourself spouting this stuff.

    As to Russia’s part in WWll . All the stats and historians agree that the Red Army was the main engine of the Nazis destruction. Specifically when they rolled back Germany in its 1000 tanks to tanks battles at Kursk and siege on Stalingrad. 3/4’s of German loses during the war were to Russia.
    Not to belittle we allies but the Eastern front that Russia fought was magnitudes more bloody and did more damage to the German army abilities than the allies Western offensive.
    We, the US, lost just under 500,000 soldiers. Russia lost 11 million troops and 12 million civilians.

    Journalist like Max Hastings in ‘Inferno’ and historian Timothy Snyder in “Bloodlands’ as well as every historian who has written on WWII and war records of the allies agree this.

    So you need to quit insulting the Russian people.

    And you can drop the Vietnam patriot act also. You sound like a phony. Why do I think that? Because I know a number of Vietnam vets , including my older brother, first in his class at Quantico, Marine Lt. ’66, three purple hearts, two Bronze Stars and one Silver Star and the scars to go with them. The ones who were in real combat don’t talk like that unless they are psychos or unless they spent their enlistment in an tent office and want to pretend they were heroes.
    Your trash talk is an embarrassment to your betters who died in that war. …including one of my close friends, a helicopter pilot.

  76. @Authenticjazzman

    So now it is just a matter of time until this confrontation comes to a head, and then we will see who is the most resourceful, courageous and : tough. I’ll give you a clue : It won’t be you commies as you were always cowards and freaks.

    You’re a bit late, genius. Put down your horn and pick up book about the Commie, FDR, and study the Commies he surrounded himself with, who he allied himself with and whom he supported, and the anti-Commies he utterly destroyed along with his fathead dandy pal, Churchill.

    The USA has been Commie ever since and that means the Commies, at least the mega rich ones, “won.”

  77. annamaria says:

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/02/a-nation-divided-against-itself-.html#disqus_thread
    Comment section:

    As John Adams said, of the (very well-designed) US constitution:

    “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution is designed only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate for any other.”

    “The Greatest Constitutional Crisis Since the Civil War,” by Conrad Black: http://www.conradmblack.com/1449/the-greatest-constitutional-crisis-since?fbclid=IwAR2qWyKRRnX94rYAZ4xBeWE8yscLdMA8U-bWfPYirVfCXjFiigyUcf_nIM4

    For more than two years, the United States and the world have had two competing narratives: that an elected president of the United States was a Russian agent whom the Kremlin helped elect; and its rival narrative that senior officials of the Justice Department, FBI, CIA, and other national intelligence organizations had repeatedly lied under oath, misinformed federal officials, and meddled in partisan political matters illegally and unconstitutionally and had effectively tried to influence the outcome of a presidential election, and then undo its result by falsely propagating the first narrative. It is now obvious and indisputable that the second narrative is the correct one.

    The authors, accomplices, and dupes of this attempted overthrow of constitutional government are now well along in reciting their misconduct without embarrassment or remorse because—in fired FBI Director James Comey’s formulation—a “higher duty” than the oath they swore to uphold the Constitution compelled them. Or—in fired FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe’s words—”the threat” was too great. Nevermind that the nature of “the threat” was that the people might elect someone he and Comey disapproved of as president, and that that person might actually serve his term, as elected.

    https://turcopolier.typepad.com/sic_semper_tyrannis/2019/02/a-nation-divided-against-itself-.html#disqus_thread, Comment section:

    …it is far worse than 1859.

  78. Art says:
    @Art

    Go ahead, Art, call Kim a dictator and insult him all you want.

    Oh my — I did not call him a dictator – I said his MIC influenced him.

    Think Peace — Art

  79. @Authenticjazzman

    ” More and more countries are starting to realize that the US is the main enemy of world peace”

    Bullshit, fact is more and more corrupt, socialististic european countries, run by a class of grifters, non-plus ultra, are beginning to realize that their tax-bled citizens are waking up to the cold hard fact that they are not benefactors of the system, rather they are the assembly-line tax-slaves who enable the horribly over-paid politicos to wallow in their luxury,

    Well, it appears to me that follyofwar has already come to such conclusions so both (s)he and the Europeans are beginning to realize the extent of our slavery as well as a major source of it (the warmongering USA). What’s your take on why so many other ‘Merkins are so slow on the uptake, and so sure that Netanyahoo’s catamite, Humpty tRumpty, is the Messiah?

  80. @onebornfree

    Thanks for your fine reply. It reminded me of Kant’s answer, which I had forgotten so thanks for the reminder too.

    Laziness and cowardice are the reasons why so great a proportion of men, long after nature has released them from alien guidance (natura-liter maiorennes), nonetheless gladly remain in lifelong immaturity, and why it is so easy for others to establish themselves as their guardians. It is so easy to be immature.

    – Immanuel Kant, What Is Enlightenment? (1784)

  81. jo6pac says:
    @Willem

    Agree, I always enjoy Mike W. articles.

  82. annamaria says:
    @follyofwar

    “I’m not doubting Pence’s personal integrity. … Just a week or so ago in Poland he called upon the other nations in attendance to take a more hard-line stance against Teheran… We know Pence is an Evangelical, but if he happens to be a supporter of John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel, then things could get a little dicey. Hagee has famously called for the bombing of Iran from his pulpit.”

    — What exactly shows “integrity” of Pence who is in the service to Israel? https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/12/08/armageddon-pence-israel-and-the-evangelicals/ https://unitedwithisrael.org/watch-mike-pence-declares-that-america-stands-with-israel/

    John Hagee’s Christians United for Israel is a front for Israel-firsters, which has nothing to do with the wellbeing of the US citizenry at large.

    “Pastor John Hagee’s net worth is $5 million at present.” — Not bad for a preacher of Christ’s values.

  83. Trump is powerless against the agents of war. $5 will get you $10 betting that Trump had no say in selecting Pompeo or Bolton. Trump is an empty vessel, a shell of a man. Is there a real man in the crowded field of presidential hopefuls? Not a one. The Bankers own the MIC, both houses and the media. Until we deal with them, everything else is just milk.

    • Replies: @Harold Smith
  84. @peterAUS

    The Amish do varying degrees of it. Sharia neighborhoods in Europe where police fear to go are flawed examples. Yes, it would be daunting. But possible. Which is more than I can say for change through voting, which at this point in time seems easy but utterly fruitless for many of us.

  85. @DESERT FOX

    Desert Fox thank you for pointing out the obvious. The force behind every Deep State, and all the wars, is the Central Banks. After 1913 it has been all down hill for the bankers. So to stop that run away train we have to turn back the clock, and literally end their blood lines.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  86. @Harold Smith

    Comment of the century. 5 stars for sure.

    That one, sir, made my week.

    Prost

  87. Hank Yobo says:
    @Anon

    The catholic Spanish colonized the south of the USA

    Actually, all the “catholic Spanish” evacuated the Floridas after this territory was turned over to George III in accordance with the 1763 Treaty of Paris. Unlike the French subjects in Canada, their southern co-religionists would not accept rule by a Protestant heretic. Not a Spanish subject remained.

    • Replies: @Anon
  88. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Art

    This narrative is straight out of the Neocon establishment and Washington Deep State. In other words, absolutely backwards and WRONG.

    KJU is dying for a deal. He wants to denuke. But he can’t do that without establishing good-will with Washington and setting the foundations for peace.

  89. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:

    Bottom line: It is China that forced the DPRK to the bargaining table, not Trump. And it is China that has scripted much of Kim’s performance in Hanoi. It goes without saying that any solution to the current US-DPRK confrontation will be mapped out in Beijing too.

    I agree with the rest but not this.

    China is forcing nothing. It has been NKorea’s desire and ambition all along to exchange its nuke program for a permanent peace treaty with Washington and to normalize relations. NKorea wants to develop economically.

    The notion that “China is pulling the strings” coheres to the Washington establishment narrative that it is NKorea that is unwilling to pursue peace and negotiations. But everything that we know about NKorea and US over decades tell us that this is FALSE.

  90. Anonymous[209] • Disclaimer says:
    @Nicolás Palacios

    The US’ involvement as a whole in Korea is a curse of its own making. They should never have severed it from the Empire of Japan, much less effect the partition that left lasting trauma upon both nations of that peninsula. What possible gain did we have from doing this? Especially given that at least those in the present DPRK were much freer and prosperous ruled by the Japanese than under the Kim family.

    What?! There was no DPRK until Korea was severed in two by Washington. And there is no DPRK as we know it without the history of aggression and pressures from Washington.

    Korea as part of the Japanese Imperial realm could never last. Koreans would never tolerate it.

    • Replies: @Nicolás Palacios
  91. @the grand wazoo

    Well Mr. Trump has taken the concept of “powerlessness” to a whole new level; why, he’s so utterly powerless he can’t even NOT do illegal, immoral, unconstitutional, self-destructive things.

    And it’s not just “the Democrats” that are the problem; apparently even his own body parts treacherously defy him. And as if that’s not enough, his evil body adds insult to injury by making it seem like he’s actually enjoying himself doing “deep state” dirty work. Poor guy; it must be horrible being such a patriotic and selfless American hero trapped inside the body of a jew-controlled traitor.

  92. Joe Wong says:
    @Half-Jap

    Some people may feel awful when looking at those images of suffering victims of the A-bomb and they are right. But for each such photo, there are thousands of unsung untold images of suffering victims of atrocities and beastly acts at the hands of Japanese imperialism.

    I think most Chinese don’t hold grudges of the past, but we are all sure that these two American bombs saved lives and cut short of suffering of many, many millions of people, including millions of Japanese people. And for that we remain all thankful for the wisdom and courage of dropping these two bombs. I think the Japanese got off too easy. I think Hirohito got off too easy.

    The Japanese are different, they consider themselves “honorary White” despite an unnormal one. The Jap continuously deny about their inhuman atrocities, wrongful acts and invasion during the world wars. The Japanese PM Abe and many political figures there publicly regularly deny what the country had done in WWII. More importantly, his cabinet received overwhelming support from Japanese. This nation and many of its people were not only evil but has lost their conscience to enable them to be a normal person. Such nation and people are a real danger to other countries.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @L.K
  93. Joe Wong says:
    @Joe Stalin

    North Korean refugees move toward UN forces

    If your statement is true, there won’t be a soul in North Korea, would it?

    “During the Korean War, the US dropped more bombs on North Korea than it had dropped in the entire Pacific theater during World War II. This carpet bombing, which included 32,000 tons of napalm, often deliberately targeted civilian as well as military targets, devastating the country far beyond what was necessary to win the war.”

    This fact alone proves the Americans are worse than psychopathic war criminals, they are morally defunct evil war-mongers, they are not only bloodthirsty beasts they are also hypocrites, they want the victims to thank them for killing, bombing and raping them.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  94. Whitewolf says:

    North Koreans and anyone else dealing with the US would be foolish to disarm and rely on US guarantees. Trump has unilaterally broken the deal with Iran. Before him the US assured the Soviets that NATO wouldn’t move eastwards. The US government like it’s propaganda arm commonly known as the msm has zero credibility and simply can’t be trusted.

    The best thing for NK and anyone else on the US hitlist to do is hold tight and wait. The US is on course to implode in the near future judging by the circus that passes for politics in DC. America isn’t a serious country anymore despite it’s massive military. It’s government spends untold billions making it’s population functionally retarded and ignorant. The investment has largely paid off sadly.

    • Agree: AnonFromTN
    • Replies: @Half-Jap
    , @L.K
  95. @Sowhat

    Bravo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  96. @Joe Wong

    Yes, ALL NK refugees had to move otherwise my statement makes no sense. Of course.

    “This fact alone proves the Americans are worse than psychopathic war criminals, they are morally defunct evil war-mongers, they are not only bloodthirsty beasts they are also hypocrites, they want the victims to thank them for killing, bombing and raping them.”

    Right. Americans should fight fairly by letting the enemy live to kill them when they reach them. Of course.

    And all this time I thought the key to victory was making the enemy die for THEIR country.

    And when PRC sent huge numbers of troops into Vietnam and got their asses kicked, did I hear about anyone complain about PRC having more firepower than the Viets?

    Your anti-USA rhetoric is standard boilerplate.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  97. Wally says:
    @AnonFromTN

    said:
    ” How come German army lost more soldiers trying to capture “Pavlov’s house” in Stalingrad than capturing the whole France?”

    Simple, the French surrendered and the Soviets did not.

    But I do agree, the US should have stayed out of WWII Europe by not siding with the aggressors: UK, France, Poland, and Communist USSR.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  98. Half-Jap says:
    @Joe Wong

    Actually, long before the A-bombs, japan was calling for a conditional surrender, which was pretty much how it ended after the bombs.
    I agree with the devastation we wrought on China, though I dispute some things as war propaganda. Just because it has been propounded for long, does not make true. This is why we are unrepentant about allegations. Call us evil for caring about what can be established as true, and rejecting what cannot.

    • Replies: @Obsequious
  99. Wally says:
    @anon

    – So Trump didn’t declare a Natl Emergency to get the wall. His admin. is not being sued for doing so?
    – Yes, he said more immigration, of the legal variety, which I still disagree with, but he wants to stop the many, many times more illegal immigration. Again: declared a National Emergency.
    – How is the TPP worse than NAFTA? Or don’t you really know?
    – He cut taxes for everyone. However, Top 20% of Americans Pay 87% of Income Tax: https://www.wsj.com/articles/top-20-of-americans-will-pay-87-of-income-tax-1523007001
    Almost 50% of workers pay NO fed. income taxes, but take lot’s of free stuff as if they do
    – So Trump is responsible for judges that may or may not be appointed by ‘Democrats’? How does that work?
    – I’ll take what I can get for now, the alternative was Hillary, and his 2020 opponents are Communists.
    Complete List of President Trump’s Accomplishments in the Two Years Since His Historic 2016 Election Win: https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/11/here-it-is-complete-list-of-president-trumps-accomplishments-in-the-two-years-since-his-historic-2016-election-win/
    – You have a rather serious case of Trump Derangement Syndrome, like this:

  100. Half-Jap says:
    @Whitewolf

    Indeed. Although Trump has been a genius at dismantling the dollar hegemony and pretenses to any kind of virtue to US action.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  101. fenestol says:

    Get the picture?

    This is not a legitimate rhetorical technique. Mike Whitney should be dumped in favor of somebody from WSWS or the Black Agenda Report.

  102. Rogue says:
    @follyofwar

    Trump has no ability to decriminalize homosexuality worldwide, thank god. Where did you get that idea from

    Numerous references to it from the NY times, Washington Post, loads of other publications. Google it and see for yourself.

    Also referenced by Ramzpaul, video blogger here at Unz.

    Now whether this is something aimed at Iran or not, couldn’t say. Apparently, some say Trump is not even aware of the whole story.

    Regardless, if this worldwide homo-agenda is part of the Trump admin, then not only am I off his train, but the train can derail on top of it.

  103. Anon[424] • Disclaimer says:
    @Hank Yobo

    Florida is full of cubans , California , Nuevo Mexico , Texas , Arizona etc… are full of mexicans .

    There are around 1000 military US bases around the world , time to go , you are not wanted anymore , yankee go home .

  104. Mike G says:

    The world needs to ignore America the best it can. Start with Bolton Pompeo and disappointingly Trump

  105. “The top priority was crushing the regime by any means possible and replacing it with a compliant stooge who would do Washington’s bidding. That’s the real objective.”

    This is a defective analysis. The aim is not to replace the regime with a ‘more compliant’ or ‘democratic’ one, for that could lead to calls for Korean unification. The aim is to maintain a perpetual standoff between North and South. Consider these words by Brzezinski:

    ‘… the retention of the American presence in South Korea becomes especially important. Without it, it is difficult to envisage the American-Japanese defense arrangement continuing in its present form, for Japan would have to become militarily more self-sufficient. But any movement toward Korean reunification is likely to disturb the basis for the continued U.S. military presence in South Korea’ (The Grand Chessboard).

  106. PeterMX says:

    What is amazing is how cowardly or stupid the majority of American commentators are regarding N. Korea. Even the ones that support President Trump’s efforts expect Kim to give up his nuclear weapons for nothing, even after what the US did to Iraq twice, what it’s done to Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, not to mention Russia. After promising Gorbachev the US would not move troops into eastern Europe, the US almost immediately broke its word and moved NATO into the former Warsaw Pact countries and right up to the Russian border. The US can’t be trusted, but Kim would still try and negotiate a deal. If the US finally brought home the American troops in S. Korea, then I suspect Kim would stop testing his weapons and “maybe” listen to what else the US wanted, but probably not very likely. Tulsi Gabbard explains.

    • Replies: @Joe Stalin
  107. @follyofwar

    Her in-laws are of the same ilk as the old Hank and that is what is shielding her from her crimes… but to think that a woman is indifferent to sufferings just as men are is almost impossible to fathom with motherhood and all. Just goes to show you that when a person goes from the God of Mercy to the worship of Mammon, brutality ensues!

  108. @Half-Jap

    The atomic bombs that were unleashed on Japan were little more than a macabre science experiment, and a warning to the Soviets in the emerging Cold War, by the Americans.

    • Replies: @Half-Jap
  109. @PeterMX

    Far better for SK to develop their own thermonuclear weapons, so they will not be NorK or PRC’s bitch. USA should lease Trident missiles to SK like we do the UK. Then undoubtedly, the anti-USA crowd would cry about ‘What about the non-proliferation? What about appeasement? Running dog Yankees must kneel before our superior morality!’

  110. @Wally

    the French surrendered and the Soviets did not

    I don’t know about you, but to me this tells in no uncertain terms who were cowards and who weren’t.

    • Troll: Mike P
    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
    , @L.K
    , @PeterMX
  111. @Half-Jap

    He just continued the line set long before him. Clinton, Bush Jr, Obama, and now Trump did more to damage the US than any of our enemies could even dream of. Lemmings are running towards the cliff under the banner “Make America Great Again”. It would have been funny if I didn’t live in the US.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
  112. L.K says:
    @Joe Wong

    I think most Chinese don’t hold grudges of the past, but we are all sure that these two American bombs saved lives and cut short of suffering of many, many millions of people, including millions of Japanese people. And for that we remain all thankful for the wisdom and courage of dropping these two bombs. I think the Japanese got off too easy BLAH, BLAH, BLAH…

    Gee, imagine if you “did” hold grudges over the “past”, eh?

  113. @Anon

    ” People without history”

    My grandfather moved early 1900s to the US as a degree architect from Italy , aside from that he was also a blue-blooded descendant of a royal family traced back to 16th century Florence : Firenza.

    He was was of the prominent builders in the1920s boom era of south-east Michigan.

    Tell us something about your riff-raff history.

    AJM

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @bluedog
    , @Ilyana_Rozumova
  114. Hank Yobo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Perhaps the French were aware of the Geneva Conventions and the Soviets not? To characterize the French military as “cowards” is simply abhorrent. They didn’t enjoy the benefit of Stalin’s barrier troops to raise their fighting spirits. Nothing dissuades surrender like Order 227.

  115. @AnonFromTN

    ” Sounds less impressive”

    No it does not sound less impressive, as every single publication comes up with different data, different numbers, depending upon who authored it, and his agenda.

    ” If you know something about Viet Nam that others don’t, why don’t you educate us”

    I know this much : My (deceased) brother spent a year there in the infantry, and he came home with a stiff leg, and a bad heart. He never, ever stated that the US “lost” here, and I guess the fatality numbers : 55000 Americans vs 2.5 million NV, plus the fact that VN is full of McDonalds,and Burger King, send a different message than you leftists with your lie of how the US got beaten by the PJ uniformed VC.

    AJM

  116. L.K says:
    @AnonFromTN

    In order to counter Trolls like ‘authenticjazzman’, there is NO need to employ exaggerations and old propaganda.

    The French did not surrender because they were cowards, this is just silly. Were the millions of Soviet troops who surrendered cowards?

    The notion that the Germans lost more men on the siege of Pavlov’s house than in all of the French campaign of 1940 is obviously crude propaganda. Re German troops killed on the eastern front, around 75% or even a bit less corresponds to the actual % of German troops kia in there.
    US lend-lease to the USSR was extremely important, possibly even crucial to the ability of the Soviets to continue the war after the initial massive material losses. Several Russian historians have conducted new research demonstrating the real importance of lend-lease to the Soviet war effort.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @EugeneGur
  117. L.K says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    My grandfather moved early 1900s to the US as a degree architect from Italy , aside from that he was also a blue-blooded descendant of a royal family traced back to 16th century Florence

    pfffhaHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Thanks for the laugh, you are too funny!

  118. L.K says:
    @Whitewolf

    “North Koreans and anyone else dealing with the US would be foolish to disarm and rely on US guarantees.”

    Absolutely… and the list of those screwed who foolishly relied on US “guarantees” goes back to the 19th Century so it is a pretty long list.

    • Agree: DESERT FOX
    • Replies: @DESERT FOX
  119. @Hank Yobo

    Geneva conventions did not prevent Germany from mistreating and eventually exterminating millions of Soviet POWs. So, maybe they were wise not to rely on Geneva conventions.

    “Barrier troops” is an interesting myth. My nephew, when he was ~10 years old, caught a logical flaw in this myth. He asked, if there were barrier troops, then who kept barrier troops from running away? Could you please answer this question?

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
    , @L.K
    , @L.K
  120. Wally says:
    @Anon

    Nuland is a Zionist Jew.

    You said: “the indians were already there before we europeans arrived”
    except:
    Europeans were the first to set foot on North America, beating American Indians by some 10,000 years, new archaeological evidence : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/9110838/Stone-age-Europeans-were-the-first-to-set-foot-on-North-America.html

    you said:
    “You yankees came from protestant England and northern Europe”
    and then contradicted yourself by saying:
    “rootless arrogant yankees , people without history”

    That was easy, now insert other foot.

    Cheers.

  121. EugeneGur says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    The “heroic” Russians would have not have “destroyed” anything without the millions of tons of American war supplies, weaponry, vehicles, planes, ammunition, foodstuffs, supplied to them by through the American lend-lease program, period.

    This is at the very least debatable – the “could’ve, would’ve should’ve” arguments aren’t particularly persuasive. Besides, delivering supplies isn’t the same as fighting and dying. The Americans had paid with canned meat – and not a lot of it, contrary to what you believe – for the Russian blood. Fighting and dying has never been the American forte.

    My own dear mother having been one of the famed “Rosies” working around the clock in war plants. My mom was assembling “bazookas”, in a Detroit plant,

    Well, my grandmother assembled T-34 tanks, and not in safe Detroit but right there in Stalingrad under bombs. I think even you should be able to appreciate the difference.

    As for the Viet Nam issue : you have no fricking clue as to what you are blathering about,

    Oh yes, we do. The point couldn’t be simpler: the mighty US lost and had to run away after destroying the whole country and killing, maiming and starving its citizens. It’s as simple as that.

    you whole driving force being your hate for the US

    We don’t hate the US or the American people. But people like you, however, will be the downfall of that country, that’s for sure.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  122. @L.K

    I am not calling POWs cowards, I am talking about the leadership. Surrendering your country when it actually has a military force superior to that of the attacker is hardly a sign of courage. That’s what happened in France in 1940. Later French felt so ashamed of this performance that they condemned and executed Petain (a convenient scapegoat). As an opposite example, I can offer Polish army in 1939: it kept fighting even though Polish political leadership cowardly ran away to London at the first sign of trouble. Germans lost more soldiers conquering Poland than they did in France. This tells me all I need to know.

    I think that “authenticjazzman” is not a troll, just a hopelessly confused person suffering from indigestion of the propaganda s/he swallowed hook, line, and sinker. As to the numbers of German casualties at the Pavlov’s house, as compared to their conquest of France, these are not propaganda, but facts (an inconvenient truth, as some would say).

    There are conflicting estimates of the importance of lend-lease for the Soviet war effort, and I have no time to research this issue for myself. The numbers I gave links to all come from the Western sources that one can hardly consider pro-Soviet. Suffice it to say that the issue of lend-lease did not even arise in countries that did not put up any resistance, including (but not limited to) France.

    • Replies: @L.K
    , @L.K
  123. @EugeneGur

    ” The mighty US lost”

    Okay so the “Mighty US suffered the loss of 55000 men, and North Viet Nam lost 2.5 million, and Viet Nam is now a capitalistic area, with McDonalds, Burger King, Dunkin Donats, etc.

    So this is your description of Winning : suffering the most fatalities and changing your political system to match that of your opponent.

    You have no fucking clue as to what you are blabbering about.

    AJM

  124. EugeneGur says:
    @Hank Yobo

    Perhaps the French were aware of the Geneva Conventions and the Soviets not?

    what does the Geneva Convention have to do with this? It somehow prohibits fighting for your country?

    To characterize the French military as “cowards” is simply abhorrent. They didn’t enjoy the benefit of Stalin’s barrier troops to raise their fighting spirits.

    You contradict yourself, my friend. Without getting into the debate about these “barrier troops “, according to you, the French military didn’t have any fighting spirit without such order, and no such order had been issued – that means precisely that neither the troops nor the High Command was quite prepared to fight.

    But you are right in a way – the French fought quite bravely on the Hitler’s side. The French division “Charlemagne” was quite effective in battle and it was the one defending Reichstag till the end.

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
  125. Hank Yobo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    There is a great deal of information about Stalin’s use of barrier troops readily available. You’ll just have to read them for yourself and judge their content quality. Start by looking at the history behind Stalin’s Order 227. Better yet, let your nephew read it.

  126. L.K says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Geneva conventions did not prevent Germany from mistreating and eventually exterminating millions of Soviet POWs.

    This is a LIE.

    “Barrier troops” is an interesting myth. My nephew, when he was ~10 years old, caught a logical flaw in this myth. He asked, if there were barrier troops, then who kept barrier troops from running away? Could you please answer this question?

    Not worth answering it, since it is pure SOPHISTRY.

    You are obviously not a serious person.
    Re Soviet POWs… why don’t you tell us all about Stalin’s war on the Soviet POWs, DURING and AFTER the war was over, when large numbers were forcibly repatriated only to be shot or sent to the GULAG?

    You could start with Stalin’s Order No. 270.?

    If … “instead of organizing resistance to the enemy, some Red Army men prefer to surrender, they shall be destroyed by all possible means, both ground-based and from the air, whereas the families of the Red Army men who have been taken prisoner shall be deprived of the state allowance [that is, rations] and relief.”
    The commanders and political officers … “who surrender to the enemy shall be considered malicious deserters, whose families are liable to be arrested [just] as the families of deserters who have violated the oath and betrayed their Motherland.”

    As Russian journalist Teplyakov put it:

    Just a few lines, but they stand for the hundreds of thousands of children and old folks who died from hunger only because their father or son happened to be taken prisoner.”

    Obviously all these 100s of thousands Teplyakov mentions, plus the countless others who fell victim to Stalin’s scorched earth policies are then made into victims of the Hitlerites by propaganda masking as ‘history’.

    Also, tell us all about how the Stalin regime REFUSED German attempts to negotiate observance of the Geneva Convention on prisoners of war, thus condemning huge numbers of them to a miserable death.

  127. EugeneGur says:
    @L.K

    US lend-lease to the USSR was extremely important, possibly even crucial to the ability of the Soviets to continue the war after the initial massive material losses.

    Actually, nobody denies it was helpful. Even in the Soviet times lend-lease had always been mentioned with positive connotations. That’s why we have two major monuments to the Allies, one in Murmansk and one in Moscow. We have movies, we have songs, all sorts of things about the Allies – and the Allies have nothing about us. In the Russian culture, ingratitude is a major sin.

    However, end-lease wasn’t quite free, most of it went to Britain, which didn’t fight and, furthermore, used to send to the USSR old poorly functioning airplane and tanks instead of new ones, and next to nothing came in 1941-42 when it would’ve been most needed. We remember that, too, and we also remember that the amount wasn’t that huge as the Western side claims. Besides, the US did quite well out of that war economically.

    What we object to the most, however, is the equation mark put between the Russians’ fighting and the lend-lease operation. It’s like buying the people’s lives, suffering and bravery with canned meat. Delivering a few ton’s of supplies isn’t the same as seeing you country destroyed, loosing friends, family, home, fighting and dying for four long years and coming back against all odds with victory, if you are lucky, but to nothing but ruins and privations. Not even in the same universe.

    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    , @Avery
  128. L.K says:
    @AnonFromTN

    I think that “authenticjazzman” is not a troll, just a hopelessly confused person suffering from indigestion of the propaganda s/he swallowed hook, line, and sinker.

    He is a troll.

    As to the numbers of German casualties at the Pavlov’s house, as compared to their conquest of France, these are not propaganda, but facts blah, blah,

    You seem to be a “hopelessly confused person suffering from indigestion of the propaganda s/he swallowed hook, line, and sinker” yourself if you seriously believe the NONSENSE about the German losses at the Pavlov’s house being larger than in France. You should be ashamed for even posting this…

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  129. PeterMX says:
    @AnonFromTN

    @AnonFromTN – It’s a lot easier and safer when you’re talking from the other side of the world with the Atlantic Ocean separating you from the fighting. Then people like FDR and others might appear braver than they are.

    It wasn’t just the French that lost, it was the combined British and French armies that lost when they were thrown into the English Channel by Germany and then fled to safety in Britain. France was overrun and occupied. It wasn’t just the French army that was routed in six weeks. The British army was routed in six weeks too and Churchill was seriously consideribg Hitler’s offer. If the French had chosen to conduct partisan warfare against the German army in a serious way, as the Bolsheviks in the USSR did, France would have been completely destroyed and looked like Germany after the war, and millions of French would have been killed (as they should be) for killing German soldiers while posing as civilians.

    It was the French and British that started WW II by making Germany’s interests in the east their business and declaring war on Germany, a war Germany repeatedly publicly stated it did not want. Many Euroeans did not want that war, including Frenchmen. The French were treated well by the occupying Germans. It would have been stupid to turn France into a totally destroyed country, when they were the aggressors and still treated well. Unfortunately, that is what Europe did to itself,

  130. L.K says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Germans lost more soldiers conquering Poland than they did in France. This tells me all I need to know.

    Really? Except twice as many German troops were KIA in France than in Poland.
    When the WIA, MIA are included the French campaign cost Germany 3 times the losses incurred in Poland.
    Just stop, please.

  131. L.K says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Further context re the fate of Soviet pows in German captivity:

    Historian Nikolai Tolstoy documents what happened in “Victims of Yalta: The Secret Betrayal of the Allies: 1944-1947”

    From the time of the Bolshevik coup d’état in 1917, the Soviet Government no longer considered itself a party to the Hague Conventions; nor did it become a signatory of the Geneva Convention of 1929, which defined more precisely the conditions to be accorded to prisoners of war. Despite this, immediately after war broke out in June 1941, the German Government approached the International Red Cross Committee with a view to regulating the conditions of prisoners on both sides. Lists of Russian prisoners were passed to the Soviet Government until September 1941. They then stopped, in the face of continued Soviet refusal to reciprocate. Over the winter the Germans made further efforts to establish relations with the Soviets with a view to introducing the provisions of the Hague and Geneva Conventions, but were rebuffed again.4 The Red Cross Committee itself then took a hand, approaching the Soviet ambassadors in London and Sweden; these made favourable noises, but on referring the matter to Moscow reverted to an impassive refusal.5
    Meanwhile Germany’s allies, Italy, Rumania and Finland, after likewise trying in vain to come to any mutual arrangement, decided to apply the terms of the Conventions unilaterally to the Russian prisoners in their hands. This generous gesture evoked no response either.6 The Finns in particular became very concerned about the wretched state of the 47,000 Russian prisoners they held, and gratefully accepted large-scale Red Cross aid, despite the Soviet refusal to allow similar aid to go to Finns imprisoned in Russia.7
    Not surprisingly, the attitude of the German Government to their Russian prisoners began to harden…
    Hitler himself urged Red Cross inspection of camps. But an appeal to Stalin for prisoners’ postal services received a reply that clinched the matter: ‘There are no Russian prisoners of war. The Russian soldier fights on till death. If he chooses to become a prisoner, he is automatically excluded from the Russian community. We are not interested in a postal service only for Germans.’9 Henceforward, not surprisingly, ‘the principal base of Hitler’s ideology of the conduct of war was the fact that the Soviet Union had not signed the Geneva Convention of 1929, and would therefore certainly not treat German prisoners of war according to its provisions’. On 29 May 1942 Molotov flatly rejected a State Department suggestion that the USSR sign or adhere to the Convention.10
    Thus a humane German camp commander provided some small ameliorations in the harsh life of his charges, but explained to a Russian doctor that he could do no more, since Stalin had declined to enter into any agreement.11″

    Say, how many of the circa 90.000 German pows captured at Stalingrad survived Soviet captivity? Less than 6%!

    “Finally the history of a cruel betrayal on the part of the West of millions of helpless people is being told and exposed. Exposure can no longer save any of the victims, but it can be a warning for the future.”
    – Alexander Solzhenitsyn on “Victims of Yalta: The Secret Betrayal of the Allies: 1944-1947” by Nikolai Tolstoy

  132. Hank Yobo says:
    @EugeneGur

    The mention of no French “barrier troops” in their army was sarcastic to juxtapose the need for such units in the Russian military. Also, perhaps when the next victory day parade is celebrated in May, the first float should carry a banner stating that “We Started This Whole Mess by Signing a Non-Aggression Pact With Hitler.” Such a mea culpa in front of the Kremlin will help contextualize all the events that followed.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @Mike P
  133. @L.K

    Just ask the Native American Indians, the U.S. gov broke every treaty with the Indians.

  134. bluedog says:
    @Authenticjazzman

    He sure didn’t sire much,did he..?

  135. @L.K

    OK, need to correct based on English language sites.

    Poland, 1939: was attached by Germany and ~2 weeks later by the Soviet Union. 16,343 German soldiers were killed, the war lasted 36 days and the country was conquered.

    France, 1940: Germany conquered France in forty-six days at the price of 27,074 dead soldiers.

    Pavlov’s house, Stalingrad – defended by 25 men, 60 days of siege, after which main Soviet forces got to it, so the house was never surrendered to Germans.
    Source:
    https://www.thevintagenews.com/2017/03/02/pavlovs-house-during-the-battle-of-stalingrad-german-soldiers-suffered-more-casualties-attempting-to-take-one-apartment-building-then-they-did-taking-the-city-of-paris/
    Germans lost more soldiers at Pavlov’s house than they lost taking the city of Paris, not the whole France.

    If you think that this info attests to the prowess of the French military, I rest my case.

  136. @Authenticjazzman

    Florence never had any royal family. Your claim is ridiculous. Most influential Florentine family was Medici. One of Medici became a pope. Many women from Medici family become a Queens marrying royals all over Europe. Only King Italy did have was King Emanuel.

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  137. @Hank Yobo

    French defeat had nothing to do with Geneva convention. French totally relied on Maginot line of fortifications. Hitler did surprise the French, he did go simply around it.

  138. @EugeneGur

    It is pretty apparent that LK is including all those convoys sunk by German submarines, never reaching any Soviet port.

  139. rok53 says:

    Anytime you cannot leave a country freely. It’s not a free country.
    Plenty of North Koreans voted with their feet. The North Koreans
    killed everbody that could read when they invaded the south and
    pushed S. K. and U.S. to the Pusan perimeter

  140. @Hank Yobo

    What about Munich 1938, where France and Britain sold out Czechoslovakia? Did that start anything? It was a year before Stalin signed his pact with Hitler. Is that mentioned in the countries involved?

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
  141. Avery says:
    @EugeneGur

    The enduring myth that the Lend Lease was allegedly ‘crucial’ to the Red Army victory over the Wehrmacht has been debunked many times.

    A couple of years back there was a link in Russia-Insider.com to a detailed analysis of materiel received from the West year-by-year, and juxtaposed against the crucial battles on the Eastern front, such as the Battle of Moscow. It proved the point.

    And you are correct: pretty much every WW2 movie from Soviet times to Russian made includes an American presence in a very positive role: as an ally. But all the WW2 movies produced by US and Britain give the impression that US and UK single handed defeated Nazi Germany.

    And the West largely boycotted Russia commemorating 70th of victory over Nazi Germany. (the ostensible reason being that UkroNazis complained about Russian ‘aggression‘)
    It is is vile and disgusting.

  142. pogohere says: • Website
    @Another German Reader

    Yours are very astute observations. It makes sense that Kim has to assure his domestic political base that a better life is available for these stakeholders.

    There is another game afoot: The realignment of the national entities of the Eurasian continent and its near environs in such a manner that could impact even the UNSC. Arguably, the S. Koreans and the Japanese are not sovereign entities (and BTW, neither is Germany) so long as they are all occupied by US armed forces. The Russians recently reminded the Japanese of this in the context of their discussions about a peace treaty between them that remains at an impasse. See: Lavrov speaks after talks with Japanese FM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M2sF2ZCLzA) and Russia, Japan and the USA: The Unfinished Business of War
    (https://journal-neo.org/2019/02/27/russia-japan-and-the-usa-the-unfinished-business-of-war/)

    Imagine the Russians in private dangling the possibility of permanent UNSC seats to Japan and Germany in some future UN in return for an assertion by them of their sovereignty in a manner of their choosing, in particular the termination of US military basing rights in their countries.

    May we live so long!

  143. @Anonymous

    The Koreans did tolerate it for 35 years. Rather more comfortably and warmly than is believed. Aside from the March 1st Movement, which quickly fizzled out, there was no organized, well-funded, credible opposition to the Japanese. No coordinated paramilitary insubordination whatsoever that could pose as an actual threat. Whatever opposition there existed was forced to pursue action from abroad, or was enacted by lone wolf types. Ordinary Koreans got along rather well with the Japanese. Not only that, but they also quickly began adopting their occupiers’ culture and sometimes form of dress. Modern Korean cuisine, for example, owes much to its Japanese counterpart, as did Korean cinema (which also adopted the use of benshi during the silent era)

    By 1930 Korea was not only quickly being Japonicized, but the Koreans themselves became active and enthusiastic participants in Japanese imperial ambitions. Again, Japanese documents from this period demonstrate this. The only segment of the population that was mostly anti-Japan were the monied and intellectual elites in the cities. Tellingly, this had less to do with actual patriotism and more to do with restoring themselves to the top of the cultural/economic pecking order which Japan had disrupted.

    By 1940 there already were several Korean and Taiwanese members of the Diet, and significant push even from politicians and people from within the Japanese heartland to confer full citizenship privileges to them. Had the Japanese won the war, this likely would have occurred in rapid fashion afterwards. It is quite probable that with time Japan and Korea would have eventually reached a union similar to that of the United Kingdom and its constituent nations. (Taiwan, however, would likely have been fully incorporated into the Japanese homeland as pro-Japanese sentiment was particularly strong there and remains so to this day. But that’s a story for another day.)

  144. Half-Jap says:
    @Joe Stalin

    The Americans are reviled because of the large scale death and destruction they gratuitously inflict on civilians. There used to be certain conventions on war, but of course only defeated countries are entire responsible for any and all acts, real or fabricated.

    • Replies: @Obsequious
  145. Half-Jap says:
    @Obsequious

    I do agree that those were an effective and hell of a warning shot.

  146. Hank Yobo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Yup, Britain and France annexed the eastern part of Poland when the Nazis invaded from the west in 1939. Stalin should have known that if you lie down with dogs, you will get up with fleas.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  147. Mike P says:
    @Hank Yobo

    Forget it. Team Russia (to which Eugene Gur and AnonFromTN belong) are always ready to pounce on the faults of other nations, but they are never going to concede a point in a historic debate if that would mean admitting Russia’s record is not perfectly white and blameless. It is an exercise in futility.

    • Agree: L.K
    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    , @AnonFromTN
  148. @Hank Yobo

    Sarcasm detected. If the annexation of the Eastern part of what was Poland in 1939 was wrong, don’t you think that Ukraine, Belarus, and Lithuania should return those territories to Poland now? In case of Lithuania that would include its present day capital Vilnius. Poland, in its turn, should return its Western third and Western Prussia to Germany, no? How come I don’t see all those “Europeans” eager to return what’s stolen? Or, if it wasn’t stolen, how come I hear you carping on it? You can’t have it both ways.

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
  149. @Mike P

    Of course the record of the Russian Empire, then USSR, and then Russian Federation is not blameless. The point is that those living in a glass house are unwise to start throwing stones. Considering that every international action of the US in the last 20-25 years was blatantly illegal (that includes numerous wars of aggression w/o UN approval, as well as economic sanctions against various countries), neither the Empire, nor its sidekicks can claim high moral ground.

  150. @Mike P

    If you consider yourself a Christian, recall the words of Christ “He that is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone at her.” (John 8:7).

  151. @Half-Jap

    Abe makes this exact point. He has often stated that the judgement of Japan in the aftermath of the war was nothing more than victors’ justice. However, other than an expression of resentment from time to time by the political leadership, it doesn’t seem as though the average Japanese is all that bothered by what has been dished out to them.

  152. @Ilyana_Rozumova

    You have no clue as to what you are blathering about, as usual.

    First of all I did not mention the Medici in any context, and I did not refer to “A” singular royal family, rather to all of the “Di(s) ” and “De(s) “, which comprised of the extended Italian nobility in general.

    My family is still , to this day, traceable within the mountain villiages of of the Abbruzzen, with their coat of arms.

    AJM

  153. Hank Yobo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Have either you or your nephew read Order No. 227 yet?

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  154. Windwaves says:
    @nomoredonothings

    Then it is war, always war, war everywhere

  155. @Hank Yobo

    I was familiar with it this order, and reread it again. This is from Wiki (which is hardly sympathetic to Stalin in particular, USSR in general, and Russian Federation:

    “Order No. 227 issued on 28 July 1942…
    Intended to galvanize the morale of the hard-pressed Red Army and emphasize patriotism, it had a generally detrimental effect and was not consistently implemented by commanders who viewed diverting troops to create blocking detachments as a waste of manpower. On 29 October 1944, blocking detachments were disbanded by order No. 349 of the People’s Commissar of Defense because of the changed situation at the front”

    So, blocking detachments were ordered for a bit over 2 years (out of four year war, and were not implemented consistently. They did not exist for the first year of war, when Hitler’s plans were in fact ruined.

    Now, I asked another question that you studiously avoid answering: did you read the Munich agreement of 1938? What’s you evaluation of its effect on Hitler’s plans and WWII in general? Did it help “spread democracy”, “prevent war”, or any other such thing? Should we praise French and British leadership for that agreement? Please explain.

    • Replies: @Hank Yobo
  156. Hank Yobo says:
    @AnonFromTN

    Thanks for your reply. Your original assertion was that

    “Barrier troops” is an interesting myth.

    (#121). Now you have conceded that they did exist. Moving on. I didn’t reply about the Munich Agreement because it was irrelevant to our whole exchange about perceived French cowardice vs. Russian valor. I merely pointed out Soviet duplicity in signing a non-aggression pact with that odious Austrian and then actually assisting the destruction of Poland by striking from the east while Hitler moved against that country’s western borders. The Hitler-Stalin pact then allowed the Germans to mass the majority of their forces in the west for the 1940 Blitzkrieg. Germany has always had to deal with the possibility of waging a two-front war; Stalin relieved Hitler of that immediate worry and found himself taking the same pounding that British and French troops endured a year earlier. Just desserts, indeed. Thankfully, Britain and her Commonwealth fought on until the U.S. entered the fray, tipping the balance of power in men and material in the Allies’ favor. Victory followed. Certainly, Russia played its part (eventually); America played its part; the British played their part, as did all the Free Forces and resistance groups still doing what they could to battle Nazi occupation. To maintain that one country did more than any other is simply childish since all the Allied nations applied maximum effort to destroy Nazi Germany. I’m fortunate to have grown up in a generation that has not experienced the calamity of total war because of such a remarkable sacrifice. They ensured that I could grow up in a land of peace and plenty. I’m very thankful. You should be too. Hotel Yankee, out.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
  157. Yee says:

    Obsequious,

    “Abe makes this exact point. He has often stated that the judgement of Japan in the aftermath of the war was nothing more than victors’ justice”

    Countries invaded by Japan:

    Ryukyu Kingdom (Okinawa)
    Korea
    China
    HongKong
    Macau
    Vietnam
    Cambodia
    Laos
    Burma
    Philippines
    Indonesia
    Malaysia
    Singapore
    Papau New Guinea
    Thailand (arguably as Thailand “agreed” to ally with Japan)
    Pacific islands too, Palau, Solomon, Mariana etc.

    I might have missed some others…

    China alone had at least 30 million casualties in the war. “nothing more than victors’ justice”? Japan’s entire ruling class, including Abe’s granddaddy, should have been hanged for their crimes.

  158. @Hank Yobo

    Yea, I’ve seen this assertion before: everybody did his best, so Luxembourg did as much to defeat Nazi Germany as Russia. However, the facts remain: quite a few people from some countries served Hitler, many voluntarily. There was a recent scandal because a few Belgian citizens were still receiving German pensions given by Hitler. There were large numbers of Italian, Hungarian, and Romanian troops fighting on Hitler’s side against the USSR. There was one French division fighting for Hitler (Charlemagne), two Latvian Waffen SS divisions, one Estonian, one Ukrainian, etc. However, there were no Polish or Lithuanian Waffen SS divisions. So, according to you, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, and Estonia equally contributed to the defeat of Nazi Germany? I beg to differ.

    History would have been a purely academic pursuit if it did not have a nasty habit of repeating itself. With full support of the same countries that supported Hitler against the USSR Ukrainian Nazis are murdering civilians, shelling residential areas, schools and kindergartens in Donbass. The school I went to in Lugansk was shelled. One shell hit the entrance where I used to smoke in the 10th grade. The library where I borrowed books when I was in school also was shelled by Ukie Nazis, now it has a big hole on its façade. Ukies bombed the central square in Lugansk, where mothers and grandmothers used to walk children, killing and wounding a number of civilians, mostly women and children. The residential area in Lugansk where I used to live, which has a few dozen multi-story apartment buildings, five kindergartens, two schools, and nothing else was shelled by Ukie Nazis for months, until Donbass freedom fighters pushed Ukie army far enough from Lugansk that it cannot shell it any more.

    So, maybe you and yours saw no war since WWII, but your government and other “democratic” European governments support the Nazi regime in Ukraine that wages war on presumably its own people (although it is said that the army shoots its own people only once; after that it shoots foreign people). So, I would never agree with lies about the past, as they inevitably lead to crimes committed today.

    Bottom line is, lies about WWII are not just innocent scientific blunders. These lies play active role in today’s affairs, leading to mass murder of civilians.

  159. @Yee

    Yeah, but how many countries had the victors invaded prior to 1945? Not that those countries deserve to be excoriated either, but that is my point. While certainly far from being acts of disinterested benevolence, what Japan committed was neither unique nor peculiarly cruel. It was par for the course with what some Western nations successfully got away with. At any event, contrary to popular belief, life was generally prosperous and quiet in Chōsen (Korea), Taiwan, and the Nan’yō (South Seas Mandate) under Japanese rule. No more and no less so than in, say, the former Alta California, or in Southern Rhodesia.

    They lost the war and agreed to the terms of their surrender. All that was fair. What is insufferable is the hypocritical moralism on the part of the victors. Which Judge Pal on the International Military Tribunal for the Far East attacked in his dissent. He was not wrong.

    China alone had at least 30 million casualties in the war.

    1.) Those numbers have been grossly inflated by the Chinese for similar reasons that another disaster event in Europe has been capitalized upon by a certain ethnic group. The much vaunted “300,000” that supposedly perished in Nanking, for example, is not even backed up by the Kuomintang’s own records, which tallied the city’s total population at approximately 60,000 at the time of invasion.

    2.) The Kuomintang and CCP themselves were particularly barbaric to their own people for the sake of perceived military advantage against the Japanese. Consider the flooding of the Yellow River by the Kuomintang in 1938. The CCP’s own postwar records state that some 900,000 people were killed in that event and 3,000,000 left homeless. (Earlier figures compiled during the war estimated the numbers of total affected as high as 12 million.) They originally had blamed the flooding and resulting deaths on the Japanese. I suppose the Chinese were the originators of the hate crime hoax.

  160. Yee says:

    Nicolás Palacios,

    “what Japan committed was neither unique nor peculiarly cruel.
    …..
    At any event, contrary to popular belief, life was generally prosperous and quiet in Chōsen (Korea), Taiwan, and the Nan’yō (South Seas Mandate) under Japanese rule.”

    Oh, I have no interest to learn how sweet it was to be invaded and colonized… I know invaders can chop your head off for fun and proudly show off.
    http://s7.sinaimg.cn/bmiddle/001kCzrzzy6TyjPpLsGb6&690
    _________________

    “Those numbers have been grossly inflated by the Chinese”

    For 8 years of war in a country of 450 million people, 30 million casualties is 6.7% of the population. And you claim it’s “grossly inflated”?! What was the casualty rate of Europe theater during World War II? Especially where the battles were fought?

    So the bastard KMD disregarded civilian lives in their attempt to slow down the Japanese army, and that should lessen the crime of the invaders?

    • Replies: @Nicolás Palacios
  161. @swamped

    “Kim is neither a Marxist revolutionary nor a Communist ideologue”…he is also neither a leader or decision maker in the North Korea… HE IS A MERE TOTEM POLE of thirty something years old brat and the Party cadres want to make people gather around and salute/shout/get together for the Rodong-Dang (the Labor Party aka Communist Party).
    The real decision makers are a bunch of commissars in the Party.
    The author of this article has never been in N. Korea and also S. Korea…so that his storytelling is fictitious at better…I believe I know the Korea better than him, since I have been in North Korea 5 years ago and observed the nation with my own eyes.
    My last comment about Trump-Kim talk: a kabuki dance…Kim the Third is not an idiot dismantling his nukes on the promises of a snake-oil-salesman of New York Mafia-style Boss Trump.

  162. @Yee

    30 million casualties is 6.7% of the population. And you claim it’s “grossly inflated”?!

    That is correct. Since the PRC correctly understands that the modern State of Japan is a proxy for US power in East Asia, it is in its best interests to diminish that power by whichever means necessary, even if they must resort to exaggeration or wholesale fabrication. The death toll of the Japan-China War currently expounded by the PRC are contradicted by the Kuomintang’s own numbers from that period. But the mainland Chinese have learned well from the Jews in Europe how playing the part of eternal victim in the eyes of the world confers great political power.

    It is telling, for example, that the Philippines and Vietnam, two countries which suffered greatly under Japanese rule, have become not only among its firmest regional allies, but have called upon it to rearm and renounce Article 9 of its Constitution. Or witness Taiwan, where there exists a degree of nostalgia for Japanese rule that may be shocking to foreigners. A few years ago I was in Tainan and happened across the 90th anniversary celebrations for a department store located there. Droves of Taiwanese youth showed up cosplaying as colonials in early Shōwa period fashion. Quite a few even came sporting kyokujitsu and were dressed as IJA and IJN officers. It was a surreal sight; totally unimaginable in the PRC or in the Korean Peninsula.

    Which also brings me to this point: why has Taiwan, which is the legitimate successor state of the former Republic of China, not more aggressively decried these Japanese “war crimes” in like measure with the modern PRC?

    So the bastard KMD disregarded civilian lives in their attempt to slow down the Japanese army, and that should lessen the crime of the invaders?

    No, but you miss the point: everybody in World War II has blood on their hands. There were no “heroes”, nor was there any “justice”. It was just a war like any other, albeit one fought on an unprecedented scale. Therefore, it is the height of hypocrisy for one side to hold another in contempt for “crimes” that they, too, are guilty of. Each side fought as desperately as they could in order to secure victory. The only thing the Japanese did “wrong” was lose.

    We may not live to see this, but the day will come when the jingoism and propaganda of that event will finally vanish into silence. Future generations will then be free to discuss that war with the rational disinterest we ourselves currently reserve for the Punic Wars or the Hundred Years’ War.

    • Replies: @Obsequious
    , @Obsequious
  163. @swamped

    Trump is the harmless muppet.

  164. Yee says:

    Nicolás Palacios,

    “But the mainland Chinese have learned well from the Jews in Europe how playing the part of eternal victim”

    Chinese don’t need to “play” the eternal victim. Until Japan in sincere renounce Militarism and show repentance, their crimes will remain an open wound on China. Every year the Japanese Prime Minister or high officials go to the temple to worship war criminals, it’s a reminder for Chinese people. It’s Japan who keeps the memory fresh.

    Unlike Germany which people around the world distinguish it from Nazi Germany, Japan hasn’t done anything to distinguish itself from their Militarism. They just try to deny and prettify it. And I’m seeing another attempt at it.

    Actually, Japan is very stupid to take the opposite direction of Germany. Prettifing crimes never work in long term. The only way to handle it is cut it off. Germany has a chance to be the leader of Europe, Japan has zero chance of Asia, no matter how many billions they spend to push their narratives.

    Yes, let’s see how well Japan’s denial will work in the future…

    • Replies: @Authenticjazzman
  165. Chinese don’t need to “play” the eternal victim.

    But they do. You yourself perform quite well on this account. I suppose that you can do tricks, too; perhaps erupt into a Pavlovian response of hot tears at the mere mention of “Nanking”?

    The Chinese are up to their eyebrows in the blood of their own people, yet seem to be little moved by those very real tragedies. Perhaps because there is no political advantage to decrying one’s own crimes—and there is plenty to be had by calling out the long past ones of a current regional rival.

    Until Japan in sincere renounce Militarism and show repentance, their crimes will remain an open wound on China.

    No. Their “crimes” are ultimately meaningless and this “open wound” is one of Chinese making, occasionally intentionally aggravated at for the sake of political expediency.

    Every year the Japanese Prime Minister or high officials go to the temple to worship war criminals, it’s a reminder for Chinese people. It’s Japan who keeps the memory fresh.

    No. They go there to pay respects to loved ones who perished in their wars—an act which perfectly reasonable. Furthermore, they have the right to do so, just as Southeners in the US have a right to honor the fallen of the Confederacy.

    Unlike Germany which people around the world distinguish it from Nazi Germany, Japan hasn’t done anything to distinguish itself from their Militarism. They just try to deny and prettify it. And I’m seeing another attempt at it.

    They have actually gone further. While both nations renounced forever the use of aggressive militarism, only Japan has an article in its Constitution that outright bans it from having any standing defense. Eventually, the Japan Self-Defense Forces came to be, but even so they are technically unconstitutional and, at any rate, came to exist only at the behest of the US who was eager for Japan to re-arm (and was disappointed that it chose not to). So far gone is Japanese anti-militarism that even very words “army” (rikugun) and “navy” (kaigun) have been purged from official use with respect to the JSDF. (The Germans still refer to their armed forces by those names.)

    Actually, Japan is very stupid to take the opposite direction of Germany. Prettifing crimes never work in long term. The only way to handle it is cut it off. Germany has a chance to be the leader of Europe, Japan has zero chance of Asia, no matter how many billions they spend to push their narratives.

    Why not? The PRC does it all the time and have built a formidable state upon their lies. As for Germany, please refer to Unz columnist Dinh Linh’s penultimate essay to see for yourself how well perpetual atonement has worked for them.

    Yes, let’s see how well Japan’s denial will work in the future…

    About as well as it does now. What is at play here has nothing to do with “war crimes” and everything to do with nurturing centuries-long resentments against a regional rival that, for a moment, left your country in the dust.

    It will not matter ultimately. Facing a population collapse in the next couple of decades, the PRC and ROK are well along Japan’s path of irrelevant dotage. It will be unfortunate, therefore, for the PRC at least that the Asian countries currently in the ascendent economically and demographically have tremendous ill will towards it—and virtually none for the Japanese.

    • Replies: @Obsequious
  166. @Yee

    The point is not to argue that Japan’s aggression against other countries was somehow acceptable or justified but to point out the fact that those who deigned to judge Japan for its crimes had committed similar atrocities and more. The US and its allies were in no position to mete out punishment on Japan and the blatant hypocrisy should be outrageous to anyone with a modicum of common sense.

  167. @Nicolás Palacios

    The apparent love affair that the Taiwanese have with Japan stems in large part from ignorance (and also because Japan just creates really cool pop culture products). Not many people here are aware of the atrocities that were committed during Japan’s colonial rule in Taiwan. That said, the attitudes toward Japan are not uniform: the KMT and its supporters tend to have a more negative view of Japan and a greater affinity for Mainland China while the DPP and its supporters tend to side with Japan, often as a way to counterbalance or resist Mainland China’s effort to reunify.

    • Replies: @Nicolás Palacios
  168. @Nicolás Palacios

    I should also point out that China is not the only country that holds a grudge against Japan. South Korea (and the North as well) also finds Japan’s lack of remorse offensive. People just like to single out China to make the Chinese seem unreasonable or manipulative.

  169. @Nicolás Palacios

    A distinction must be drawn between the atrocities committed by people against their own and those committed by foreigners. The former is a domestic matter to be settled by the people among themselves and the latter involves an invasion and violation of national dignity and sovereignty by outsiders. Imagine the reaction if Russia, for example, were to invade and commit atrocities against the US and then dismiss any American outrage by referring the American civil war.

    • Replies: @Nicolás Palacios
  170. @Obsequious

    Yes, I have noticed that feelings vis à vis Japan are fractured along ideological lines. Though some KMT members, like Lee Teng-hui, are very pro-Japanese indeed. (In his extreme case, Japanese remains his first language and he even regularly visits Yasukuni Shrine in order to pay respects to his brother.)

    Nonetheless, feelings in Taiwan are warmer to an extent unimaginable elsewhere in the former colonies. However, while not doubting that ignorance of the historical past does play an important role in this, the Taiwanese (pre-KMT) had strong feelings of patriotism towards Japan during the colonial era. You no doubt are aware of the film A City of Sadness, which highlights with adroitness and poignancy the conflicting feelings of those who lived in that period. Very many Taiwanese had become culturally Japonicized of their own volition, not only adopting the language and manner of dress, but even taking Japanese names and worshipping at Shinto shrines. For long after the KMT takeover there lingered nostalgia for the colonial period. My earlier anecdote is an example of how that nostalgia remains even now.

    Some years ago I came across a wild petition by some fringe political movement in Taiwan that had sought reunion with Japan on the premise that it was pressured to renounce its control over the island against its people’s wishes. It gathered something like 8,000 signatures which, admittedly, is not that much, but still eyebrow-raising. I doubt even 8 people would sign such a petition in the ROK.

  171. Yee says:

    Obsequious,

    “The point is not to argue that Japan’s aggression against other countries was somehow acceptable or justified but …. The US and its allies were in no position to mete out punishment on Japan ….”

    Perhaps that’s your point, but apparently not the other commenter’s.

    Hypocrisy of the USA does not change the fact that Japan committed horrendous crimes against a long list of Asian countries and hasn’t showed remorse for it, and certainly do not give Japan the right to deny and prettify their invasion and colonization, which was the other commenter trying to do. You missed his point.

    • Replies: @Nicolás Palacios
  172. Yee says:

    Nicolás Palacios,

    “What is at play here has nothing to do with “war crimes” and everything to do with nurturing centuries-long resentments against a regional rival that, for a moment, left your country in the dust.”

    Only you would be stupid enough to assume China sees Japan as rival….

    Temporary advance of neighboring countries/tribes over us has happened several times before, we always makes a return to the top. We trust our experiences.

    Korea and Japan are rivals, not us. The USA is our rival, not Japan, not India…

  173. @Yee

    “The point is not to argue that Japan’s aggression against other countries was somehow acceptable or justified but …. The US and its allies were in no position to mete out punishment on Japan ….”

    Perhaps that’s your point, but apparently not the other commenter’s.

    That was exactly my point. Though it needs to be clarified that the PRC is also a hypocrite. (To say nothing of the Koreans who were themselves complicit in Japan’s imperial ambitions.)

    Hypocrisy of the USA does not change the fact that Japan committed horrendous crimes against a long list of Asian countries and hasn’t showed remorse for it, and certainly do not give Japan the right to deny and prettify their invasion and colonization, which was the other commenter trying to do. You missed his point.

    This lack of remorse is a myth. Japan has officially apologized repeatedly. It has also fully paid reparations to all nations that it had aggrieved militarily. I believe the only one to whom they did not pay reparations to was the PRC. Even then it was not because the Japanese were not resolved to do so, but because Mao himself refused them for the sake of quickly improving bilateral relations.

    Only you would be stupid enough to assume China sees Japan as rival….

    Korea and Japan are rivals, not us. The USA is our rival, not Japan, not India…

    You appear to misunderstand the meaning of “rival”. I do not for a moment purport that Japan is an economic/military equal to the PRC. Clearly that is not the case. However, as I mentioned earlier, it does see Japan as a proxy for US power in East Asia. Moreover, it also has longstanding enmity and distrust of Japan that precede its Meiji era rise; and generally views it as an impediment to its military goals, a competitor economically and, to a degree, diplomatically. Therefore, my designation of it as a “rival” is correct.

  174. @Obsequious

    A distinction must be drawn between the atrocities committed by people against their own and those committed by foreigners. The former is a domestic matter to be settled by the people among themselves and the latter involves an invasion and violation of national dignity and sovereignty by outsiders. Imagine the reaction if Russia, for example, were to invade and commit atrocities against the US and then dismiss any American outrage by referring the American civil war.

    Agreed. What I find hypocritical in the posture of the PRC towards Japan is that it singles out the latter’s actions as somehow uniquely worthy of scorn. (One thinks of Iris Chang’s hysterical The Rape of Nanking and how she treats this purported event as emblematic of the Japanese national character.) But they were not because the Chinese themselves outdid Japan at murdering its people by a margin (even if we accept the PRC’s inflated statistics) of roughly 3 to 1.

    Also, with regards to your example, this is not comparable only because the US did not pursue a program of punitive, intentional murder against its own citizens for the sake of military advantage against an adversary. While the death toll for the Civil War was indeed high, this was because it was a bitterly fought conflict on the battlefield. There was no equivalent in that war for the willful, purposeful annihilation of civilians that the KMT and CCP pursued against its own people during and after the war. The closest thing would be Sherman’s March to the Sea, but even then the goal there was to wreck the economic and military infrastructure of the Confederacy, not commit mass murder of its citizens.

  175. @Yee

    “Unlike Germany which people around the world distinguish from Nazi Germany”

    So this means that the Nazis were not Germans , rather an alien life form which fell out of the sky and took over Germany in 1933.

    AJM

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