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The Trump administration has drawn Turkey deeper into the Syrian conflict by announcing a policy that threatens Turkey’s national security. Washington’s gaffe has pitted one NATO ally against the other while undermining hopes for a speedy end to the seven year-long war.

Here’s what’s going on: On January 18, US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson announced the creation of a 30,000-man Border Security Force (BSF) to occupy East Syria. Two days later, January 20, the Turkish Army launched a ground and air offensive against Kurdish troops in the Afrin canton in Northwest Syria.

The media has tried to downplay the connection between the two events, but the cause-and-effect relationship is pretty clear. Tillerson’s provocation triggered the Turkish invasion and another bloody phase to the needlessly-protracted conflict. Washington’s screwup has made a bad situation even worse.

A five year old child could have figured out that Turkey wasn’t going to sit-back and let the US establish a Kurdish state on its border without putting up a fight. Keep in mind, the US plans to defend this new protectorate with a 30,000-man proxy-army comprised of mostly Kurdish fighters from the People’s Protection Units or YPG. The Turks, however, believe the YPG is connected to the terror-listed PKK which has prosecuted a scorched earth campaign against the Turkish state for decades. That’s why Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan will not allow these groups to dig in along Turkey’s southern border, they constitute a serious threat to Turkey’s security. Just imagine if Hezbollah decided to set up military encampments along the Mexican border. How long do you think it would take before Trump blew those camps to kingdom come? Not long, I’d wager.

So why did Tillerson think Erdogan would respond differently?

There’s only one explanation: Tillerson must be so blinded by hubris that he couldn’t figure out what Erdogan’s reaction would be. He must have thought that, “Whatever Uncle Sam says, goes.” Only it doesn’t work like that anymore. The US has lost its ability to shape events in the Middle East, particularly in Syria where its jihadist proxies have been rolled back on nearly every front. The US simply doesn’t have sufficient forces on the ground to determine the outcome, nor is it respected as an honest broker, a dependable ally or a reliable steward of regional security. The US is just one of many armed-factions struggling to gain the upper hand in an increasingly fractious and combustible battlespace. Simply put, Washington is losing the war quite dramatically due in large part to the emergence of a new coalition (Russia-Syria-Iran-Hezbollah) that has made great strides in Syria and that is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention. Washington opposes this system and is doing everything in its power dismantle it by redrawing borders, toppling elected leaders, and installing its own stooges to execute its diktats. Tillerson’s blunder will only make Washington’s task all the more difficult by drawing Turkey into the fray in an effort to quash Uncle Sam’s Kurdish proxies.

In an effort to add insult to injury, Tillerson didn’t even have the decency to discuss the matter with Erdogan– his NATO ally– before making the announcement! Can you imagine how furious Erdogan must have been? Shouldn’t the president of Turkey expect better treatment from his so-called friends in Washington who use Turkish air fields to supply their ground troops and to carry out their bombing raids in Syria? But instead of gratitude, he gets a big kick in the teeth with the announcement that the US is hopping into bed with his mortal enemies, the Kurds. Check out this excerpt from Wednesday’s Turkish daily, The Hurriyet ,which provides a bit of background on the story:

“It is beyond any doubt that the U.S. military and administration knew that the People’s Protection Units (YPG)…had organic ties with the Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK), which Washington officially recognizes as a terrorist group….The YPG is the armed wing of the Democratic Union Party (PYD), which is the political wing of the PKK in Syria. They share the same leadership…the same budget, the same arsenal, the same chain of command from the Kandil Mountains in Iraq, and the same pool of militants. So the PYD/YPG is actually not a “PKK-affiliated” group, it is a sub-geographical unit of the same organization….

Knowing that the YPG and the PKK are effectively equal, and legally not wanting to appear to be giving arms to a terrorist organization, the U.S. military already asked the YPG to “change the brand” back in 2015. U.S. Special Forces Commander General Raymond Thomas said during an Aspen Security Forum presentation on July 22, 2017 that he had personally proposed the name change to the YPG.

“With about a day’s notice [the YPG] declared that it was now the Syrian Democratic Forces [SDF],” Thomas said to laughter from the audience.

“I thought it was a stroke of brilliance to put ‘democracy’ in there somewhere. It gave them a little bit of credibility.” (Hurriyet)

Ha, ha, ha. Isn’t that funny? One day you’re a terrorist, and the next day you’re not depending on whether Washington can use you or not. Is it any wonder why Erdogan is so pissed off?

So now a messy situation gets even messier. Now the US has to choose between its own proxy army (The Kurdish Syrian Democratic Forces) and a NATO ally that occupies the critical crossroads between Asia and Europe. Washington’s plan to pivot to Asia by controlling vital resources and capital flowing between the continents depends largely on its ability to keep regional leaders within its orbit. That means Washington needs Erdogan in their camp which, for the time being, he is not.

Apparently, there have been phone calls between Presidents Trump and Erdogan, but early accounts saying that Trump scolded Erdogan have already been disproven. In fact, Trump and his fellows have been bending-over-backwards to make amends for Tillerson’s foolish slipup. According to the Hurriyet:

“The readout issued by the White House does not accurately reflect the content of President [Recep Tayyip] Erdoğan’s phone call with President [Donald] Trump,”…“President Trump did not share any ‘concerns [about] escalating violence’ with regard to the ongoing military operation in Afrin.”…The Turkish sources also stressed that Trump did not use the words “destructive and false rhetoric coming from Turkey.”…
Erdoğan reiterated that the People’s Protection Units (YPG) must withdraw to the East of the Euphrates River and pledged the protection of Manbij by the Turkish-backed Free Syrian Army (FSA)…

“In response to President Erdoğan’s call on the United States to end the delivery of weapons to the [Democratic Union Party] PYD-YPG, President Trump said that his country no longer supplied the group with weapons and pledged not to resume the weapons delivery in the future,” the sources added.” (Hurriyet)

ORDER IT NOW

If this report can be trusted, (Turkish media is no more reliable than US media) then it is Erdogan who is issuing the demands not Trump. Erdogan insists that all YPG units be redeployed east of the Euphrates and that all US weapons shipments to Washington’s Kurdish proxies stop immediately. We should know soon enough whether Washington is following Erdogan’s orders or not.

So far, the only clear winner in this latest conflagration has been Vladimir Putin, the levelheaded pragmatist who hews to Napoleon’s directive to “Never interfere with an enemy while he’s in the process of destroying himself.”

Putin gave Erdogan the green light to conduct “Operation Olive Branch” in order to pave the way for an eventual Syrian takeover of the Northwestern portion of the country up to the Turkish border. Moscow removed its troops from the Afrin quarter (where the current fighting is taking place) but not before it presented the Kurds with the option of conceding control of the area to the central government in Damascus. The Kurds rejected that offer and elected to fight instead. Here’s an account of what happened:

“Nearly a week ago, [a] meeting between Russian officials and Kurdish leaders took place. Moscow suggested Syrian State becomes only entity in charge of the northern border. The Kurds refused. It was immediately after that that the Turkish Generals were invited to Moscow. Having the Syrian State in control of its Northern Border wasn’t the only Russian demand. The other was that the Kurds hand back the oil fields in Deir al Zor. The Kurds refused suggesting that the US won’t allow that anyway.”

Putin has repeatedly expressed concern about US supplies of advanced weapons that had been given to the Kurdish SDF. According to the military website South Front:

“Uncontrolled deliveries of modern weapons, including reportedly the deliveries of the man-portable air defense systems, by the Pentagon to the pro-US forces in northern Syria, have contributed to the rapid escalation of tensions in the region and resulted in the launch of a special operation by the Turkish troops.” (SouthFront)

Erdogan’s demand that Trump stop the flow of weapons to the SDF will benefit Russia and its allies on the ground even more than they will benefit Turkey. It’s another win-win situation for Putin.

The split between the NATO allies seems to work in Putin’s favor as well, although, to his credit, he has not tried to exploit the situation. Putin ascribes to the notion that relations between nations are not that different than relations between people, they must be built on a solid foundation of trust which gradually grows as each party proves they are steady, reliable partners who can be counted on to honor their commitments and keep their word. Putin’s honesty, even-handedness and reliability have greatly enhanced Russia’s power in the region and his influence in settling global disputes. That is particularly evident in Syria where Moscow is at the center of all decision-making.

As we noted earlier, Washington has made every effort to patch up relations with Turkey and put the current foofaraw behind them. The White House has issued a number of servile statements acknowledging Turkey’s
“legitimate security concerns” and their “commitment to work with Turkey as a NATO ally.” And there’s no doubt that the administration’s charm offensive will probably succeed in bringing the narcissistic and mercurial Erdogan back into the fold. But for how long?

At present, Erdogan is still entertains illusions of cobbling together a second Ottoman empire overseen by the Grand Sultan Tayyip himself, but when he finally comes to his senses and realizes the threat that Washington poses to Turkish independence and sovereignty, he may reconsider and throw his lot with Putin.

In any event, Washington has clearly tipped its hand revealing its amended strategy for Syria, a plan that abandons the pretext of a “war on terror” and focuses almost-exclusively on military remedies to the “great power” confrontation outlined in Trump’s new National Defense Strategy. Washington is fully committed to building an opposition proxy-army in its east Syria enclave that can fend off loyalist troops, launching destabilizing attacks on the regime, and eventually, effecting the political changes that help to achieve its imperial ambitions.

Tillerson’s announcement may have prompted some unexpected apologies and back-tracking, but the policy remains the same. Washington will persist in its effort to divide the country and remove Assad until an opposing force prevents it from doing so. The Russian-led coalition could very well be that force.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Kurds, Rex Tillerson, Russia, Syria, Turkey 
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  1. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    If Turks had sense, they would give a piece of Turkey to the Kurds and then push all Kurds into it.
    Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey like Palestinians are to Israel.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    Kurds want a third of present Turkey.
    Festering presence, yes, subjugated people most of the time are.
    , @Jake
    If Turkey did that, the Kurdish State would forever be a total puppet of what The Sakar calls the Anglo-Zionist Empire. That Kurdish State very soon would be the armed camp used to remake Turkey as DC, Tel Aviv, and Riyadh desire.
    , @Toby Keith
    The festering presence in Palestine? That would be the supremacist usurpers who the world refers to as Jews.
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  2. Tillerson has been useless at State and needs to go. I can’t understand why Trump continues to staff the White House with swamp creatures and members of the parasitical elite. There are plenty of people here on the Alt-Right who would have been happy to serve and would have done a million times better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Deacon Solomon
    Intelligent Dasein says: I can’t understand why Trump continues to staff the White House with swamp creatures and members of the parasitical elite.

    That's because Trump himself is a member of the "parasitical elite" who flatters himself with his misperception that he is NOT one of the "parasitical elite." As for the swamp creatures, "Trump's behavior shows clearly that he's not one of the swamp creatures because he simply isn't smart enough or bold enough to be admitted to the swamp. Trump loves to fire incompetent people but when he's confronted by someone he cannot fire or who doesn't give a shit if he's fired, he (Trump) doesn't know how to react.
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  3. The British Empire could be maintained so long though bluff, manipulation, diplomacy, blackmail, bribery, and occasional force.
    As De Gaulle said about the USA ‘Americans think any problem can be solved by force’.
    Why the USA behaves so stupidly, and costly, money and blood, non American blood, is difficult to grasp.
    Where I read that USA foreign policy is determined by internal USA considerations, I do not remember.
    However, few empires ever had this luxury, or could continue this luxury very long.

    A USA friend, air force pilot, Vietnam veteran, I gave
    Anne Applebaum, ‘Between East and West, Across the borderlands of Europe’, Londen, 1995
    He read it, and told me that he had never realised how many peoples and cultures there were there.

    USA citizens hardly ever speak another language, someone asked a CIA specialist for the ME if he spoke arabic, his answer, ‘no, would not be good for my career’.
    To be dependent on translators is a big disadvantage, maybe also not understanding how important cultures are, when one lives in the cultural stew USA.

    The Turkish Kurdish conflict goes back to when Turkey was founded by Atatürk, around 1921.
    Atatürk promised the Kurds a lot, they did not get anything.

    Read More
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  4. @Anon
    If Turks had sense, they would give a piece of Turkey to the Kurds and then push all Kurds into it.
    Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey like Palestinians are to Israel.

    Kurds want a third of present Turkey.
    Festering presence, yes, subjugated people most of the time are.

    Read More
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  5. Tillerson and Trump have been co-opted to a large extent by the “deep state” as a result of a multitude of actions by this power structure including total control of the propaganda apparatus, false charges, and corrupt personnel. The Turkish response is predictable, and it has reached the point that the best result for the rest of the world would be what this risks: for Turkey to in some sense to draw the line on its association with the US.

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  6. Mike is still my most favorite author. But in this case I do virulently disagree with title of this article.
    Nothing is Tilerson’s fault. Turks are extremely nationalistic and patriotic people. And they are not stupid. They very well know who did organize coup in Turkey. They know that it was CIA aka seventeen intelligence who desperately want to get rid of Trump. And as we know also that CIA actions are overview d by Mosad. Kurds are making enough trouble for Turkey, and now US has armed them to teeth. It is only matter of time that these weapons will be spread around all Kurdistan.
    Turks very well know that they must prevent that, because that means life or death to many Turks.
    But now US is coming out as a enemy of Turkish people. That fact also means that there will be rapprochement between Turkey and Syria. And of course Iran.

    What a mess and headache for USA.
    And it is not a Tilerson’s fault.
    It is the fault of the General manager of the affair CIA

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    It is the fault of the General manager of the affair CIA
     

    And as we know also that CIA actions are overview d by Mosad.
     
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  7. “Washington’s gaffe has pitted one NATO ally against the other while undermining hopes for a speedy end to the seven year-long war.”

    Re-read that piece and tell me this was a blunder.

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  8. Avery says:

    {Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey …}

    You got it backwards: Turks are the festering presence in Asia Minor.
    Kurds are indigenous to the general region (…further East though, nearer to Iran).
    Kurds have been around these parts for 1,000s of years.

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,……everything in its path.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jake
    Turks are historically an abomination to any decent Indo-European people, and that was true before Turks became Mohammedans. And Kurds are Indo-European.

    But the list of pertinent, even essential, facts, is much longer than that. First, Arabic culture is NOT native to the old Roman province of Asia (Asia Minor - today's Asian part of Turkey). Arabic culture is from the Arabian peninsula. Nor is Arabic culture native to Syria, nor to Damascus, nor to Lebanon. All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.

    All peoples who become Mohammedan become culturally Semitic Arabic to a significant degree. That is true of peoples who are not Semitic. Even the Indo-European Persians/Iranians have seen their language partially Semitized as a result of Mohammedanization.

    The vast majority of Kurds are Mohammedan. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is based soundly on Mohammedan ties and identity. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is now tied to the Middle Eastern foreign policy plans of the Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons.

    The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.
    , @jacques sheete

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,……everything in its path.
     
    All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?

    Legit question since I know nothing about that history.

    Thanks in advance.
    , @plonialmoni
    By your definition everybody is a festering presence. Who did not invade from somewhere?
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  9. Jake says:
    @Anon
    If Turks had sense, they would give a piece of Turkey to the Kurds and then push all Kurds into it.
    Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey like Palestinians are to Israel.

    If Turkey did that, the Kurdish State would forever be a total puppet of what The Sakar calls the Anglo-Zionist Empire. That Kurdish State very soon would be the armed camp used to remake Turkey as DC, Tel Aviv, and Riyadh desire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Brabantian
    It doesn't matter if Kurdistan will be an 'Anglo-Zionist' outpost, if the Kurds are enmeshed with corruption, Israel, the drug trade or anything else ... Kurds have a right to self-sovereignty, period, and in international law as well per the UN Charter etc

    Once Kurds have their own state we can then address any mafia activity that extends outside Kurdistan borders ... but they have an inalienable right to their own state and to sort out their own affairs

    It's shocking to me too that there is not more respect for Kurdish self-sovereignty amongst all the 'ethno-nationists' etc ... who tend to fall into this Raevsky-Saker type line of 'well, killing Kurds is part of supporting Russia and Iran and opposing Israel', that is too much Machiavelli for me

    Kurds were promised their own state 100 years ago, got sold out at Versailles & Lausanne right along with the Germans and Palestinians and others ... Kurds are clearly an ethnic group of several tens of millions, living in continuous territory, with their own language and ancient culture, distinct from Iran or Arabs, their nationhood continually sabotaged

    One take-away here, after all the Kurdish lives sacrificed for the USA agenda, is that the United States is a worthless, betraying, faithless 'friend' or 'ally', who will sell you out and abandon you in a minute, just like the US is abandoning the Kurds right now ... As Henry Kissinger once said

    It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal
     
    Not that the USA betraying allies is 'new', but allowing the massacre of Kurds is severely updating the theme, and also giving a poisonous aura to President Trump here as Mr Sell-Out

    The 'logic' of the US pulls entirely in the other direction ... Support the Kurds and protect them, and the USA collectively undermines the Turks whom the US is arguing with, Syria's Assad, and also the US' current boogeyman, Iran, given the Kurdish presence in all 3 countries

    One explanation that fits here, as to why the US is allowing the Kurds to be killed and betrayed yet again, is the idea that a plan is being implemented to fully destroy all respect for the US in the world, as part of the road to implementing a new globalist regime, which people will be led to think is 'progressive' because it will be allegedly 'multi-polar' (and of course 'multi-cultural')
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  10. …nor is [the USA]respected as an honest broker, a dependable ally or a reliable steward of regional security.

    Nor should it be and I’m happy to see that the world is finally responding to something the Indians and others learned centuries ago.

    Simply put, Washington is losing the war quite dramatically due in large part to the emergence of a new coalition (Russia-Syria-Iran-Hezbollah) that has made great strides in Syria and that is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention. Washington opposes this system and is doing everything in its power dismantle it by redrawing borders, toppling elected leaders, and installing its own stooges to execute its diktats.

    Washington has opposed that system ever since Wilson began spouting , then ignoring, his own 14 points, and FDR ignored his own Atlantic Charter and helped Joey Stalin and the international bankers enslave large parts of the world’s population.

    The US has consistently made a mockery of the principles it spouts. The Indians experienced it and the veterans who fought and paid for the Am Rev learned it too. Shay’s Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and the War against the South provide further evidence that the institution has never acted on principles of decency.

    It’s about time some resistance occurred.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    This is how the USA sees its wars, to the present time, I fear:

    " Battle of Tarawa - Aftermath:

    In the fighting on Tarawa, only one Japanese officer, 16 enlisted men, and 129 Korean laborers survived out of the original force of 4,690. American losses were a costly 978 killed and 2,188 wounded. The high casualty count quickly caused outrage among Americans "

    This USA attitude is not particular.
    When the Boer wars with the British were to begin the wife of one of the Boer generals imagined that the war against the Brtish would be like the wars against the local peoples, whose lands the Boers had been taken after The Long Trek, when they left the British Cape Colony, British after these British seized the colony.
    Thee general had to tell his wife that this time there would be casualties on the Boer side.
    He did not yet foresee how many, and that the British would use scorched earth tactics, and create concentration camps.

    Anatol Lieven calculated that in recent wars the ratio of USA deaths to other deaths was one to fifty.

    White civilisation clearly is superior, as Churchill said 'the higher civilisation has the better weapons'.

    Yet the west does not understand why there is terrorism.
    It may be the western media, that call IS terrorists.
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  11. @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Mike is still my most favorite author. But in this case I do virulently disagree with title of this article.
    Nothing is Tilerson's fault. Turks are extremely nationalistic and patriotic people. And they are not stupid. They very well know who did organize coup in Turkey. They know that it was CIA aka seventeen intelligence who desperately want to get rid of Trump. And as we know also that CIA actions are overview d by Mosad. Kurds are making enough trouble for Turkey, and now US has armed them to teeth. It is only matter of time that these weapons will be spread around all Kurdistan.
    Turks very well know that they must prevent that, because that means life or death to many Turks.
    But now US is coming out as a enemy of Turkish people. That fact also means that there will be rapprochement between Turkey and Syria. And of course Iran.

    What a mess and headache for USA.
    And it is not a Tilerson's fault.
    It is the fault of the General manager of the affair CIA

    It is the fault of the General manager of the affair CIA

    And as we know also that CIA actions are overview d by Mosad.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Did I make a spelling error? Syntax?
    What?
    You are free to disagree.
    I am done biting off people's heads.
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  12. Jake says:
    @Avery
    {Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey ...}

    You got it backwards: Turks are the festering presence in Asia Minor.
    Kurds are indigenous to the general region (...further East though, nearer to Iran).
    Kurds have been around these parts for 1,000s of years.

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,......everything in its path.

    Turks are historically an abomination to any decent Indo-European people, and that was true before Turks became Mohammedans. And Kurds are Indo-European.

    But the list of pertinent, even essential, facts, is much longer than that. First, Arabic culture is NOT native to the old Roman province of Asia (Asia Minor – today’s Asian part of Turkey). Arabic culture is from the Arabian peninsula. Nor is Arabic culture native to Syria, nor to Damascus, nor to Lebanon. All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.

    All peoples who become Mohammedan become culturally Semitic Arabic to a significant degree. That is true of peoples who are not Semitic. Even the Indo-European Persians/Iranians have seen their language partially Semitized as a result of Mohammedanization.

    The vast majority of Kurds are Mohammedan. Virtually 100% of Kurdish ‘nationalism’ is based soundly on Mohammedan ties and identity. Virtually 100% of Kurdish ‘nationalism’ is now tied to the Middle Eastern foreign policy plans of the Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons.

    The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.}

    Of course.
    Absolutely.


    {The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.}

    I have no love for Kurds, to put it mildly.
    I was correcting [Anon]'s misconception about Turks and Kurds, which is quite common in the blogosphere.

    Regarding Kurds: I am of Armenian descent.
    Although the Armenian genocide was organized and carried out by Turks, Kurds opportunistically and enthusiastically participated in the slaughter, looting, Christian child-stealing,.....
    Kurds in Eastern Turkey (historic Western Armenia) were brought there by Turks after the indigenous Christian Armenians were wiped out by Muslim Turks and Muslim Kurds.
    Armenians have not forgotten Kurds' participation in the AG.
    Like I said: have no love for treacherous, backstabbing Kurds (...save for a handful of honorable Kurd leaders).

    , @jilles dykstra
    One must add that the Kurds are not a people in the sense that that there is any cohesion among them.
    In any battle with the Kurds groups of Kurds fought with the enemy.
    After WWII there was a Kurdish republic for a few years, it quickly fell apart trough internal strife.

    Gerard Challand, 'A People without a Country, The Kurds and Kurdistan', London, 1980, 1993

    As to the Turkish people, they indeed were invaders, the Ottomans were not local people , but Asian invaders.
    Therefore one cannot attribute Ottoman agression to native Turks.
    The fall of Constantinople was not caused by native Turks.

    Steven Runciman, ‘The fall of Constantinople 1453’, Cambridge 1965

    History is never simple.

    Around 1900, the Ottomans had become sleepy rulers, in how far the Ottoman Sultan really was a religious Muslim can be doubted, his harem certainly had far more than four wives.
    This sleepy rule did not see, or was unable to, restructure the Ottoman society, where any religious group was autonomous, as long as they paid their taxes.

    Mark Mazower, 'Thessaloniki - stad van geesten, Christenen, moslims en joden 1430 - 1950', 2007, geen plaats van uitgave, (2004, Salonica - City of Ghosts).

    And so the Ottoman empire became 'the sick man', dismembered in WWI.
    Atatürk prevented complete dismemberment, allied plans were that just a small area around Ankara would be Turkey.
    The SW was to be Greek, the SE French, the NW Armenian.
    The war to end all wars, Wilson, was as big a disaster as FDR's WWII.

    As a British general sighed in the early twenties 'never did we have so many wars'.
    'Thanks' to the 1921 1923 population exchange between Turkey and Greece the populations hate each other to the present day.
    And a new word was added to the vocabulary 'balkanisation'.
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  13. @Avery
    {Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey ...}

    You got it backwards: Turks are the festering presence in Asia Minor.
    Kurds are indigenous to the general region (...further East though, nearer to Iran).
    Kurds have been around these parts for 1,000s of years.

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,......everything in its path.

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,……everything in its path.

    All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?

    Legit question since I know nothing about that history.

    Thanks in advance.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Avery
    {All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?}

    Well, I know of Khazars and their adoption of Jewish religion, but do not know how many of them there are in today's Turkey. And the story of Khazars is a little murky, so do not know. What I know about are the original Turks from East and Central Asia.

    [Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China. "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.]*

    [Davutoglu said he started his tour of China from Kashgar, one of the most important cultural spots of the Turkic world and home to two prominent Turkish intellectual figures in history. Mahmud Kashgari was an 11th century Turkic scholar and lexicographer of Turkic languages who studied Turkic dialects of his time and wrote the first comprehensive dictionary of Turkic languages, the Diwanu l-Lugat al-Turk. ]

    Nomadic, warlike Turkic tribes from Central and East Asia (Uyguristan) started moving due West ~1,000+ years ago. They went through Northern Iran, before arriving in Asia Minor around 1,100 A.D. (Battle of Manzikert).
    After conquering lands in East Asia Minor (historic Armenia, Armenian Highlands, Mount Ararat), they continued moving due West. During the next 500 years or so, they defeated the Byzanteen forces and reached the Bosphorus. (e.g. the famous Hagia Sophia church was converted to a mosque around then).

    (Ottoman) Turks proceeded to invade Europe proper, but were finally stopped at the famous Battle of Vienna. Unfortunately, the damage to Asia Minor and to the indigeneous Christian peoples who had lived there for 1,000s of years - Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks - was irreversible.
    Physical appearance of most Turks has of course changed over centruries of forcible mixing of genes with the indigenous peoples: they have lost most of their Asiatic appearance. Also, a large number of peoples in Turkey who call themselves "Turks" are not ethnic Turks at all. This is due to centuries of oppression and forced Turkification by the original Turks. For example, up until very recently Kurds were called 'Mountain Turks' by Turk officialdom in a deliberate campaign to erase Kurds' Kurd identity. Speaking Kurdish in public was punished by beatings or jail.

    So, even though Turks' appearance has changed, and they have picked up bits and pieces of sedentary peoples' DNA on the way, Turks retain their ancestral nomadic, savage, destructive blueprint at their core - and act accordingly - even though they are physically no longer nomadic.

    ___________________
    *

    [Turkish FM visits Uighur region during China visit]
    http://uyghuramerican.org/article/turkish-fm-visits-uighur-region-during-china-visit.html
    , @turk151
    What the Turks did was terrible, but you never hear:

    Jews talking this way about Germans,
    Native Indians talking this way about White Americans
    Koreans or Chinese talking this way about the Japanese
    Black Americans talking this way about Whites

    Armenians have been given a free pass to make the make the most outrageously racist remarks.
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  14. Avery says:
    @Jake
    Turks are historically an abomination to any decent Indo-European people, and that was true before Turks became Mohammedans. And Kurds are Indo-European.

    But the list of pertinent, even essential, facts, is much longer than that. First, Arabic culture is NOT native to the old Roman province of Asia (Asia Minor - today's Asian part of Turkey). Arabic culture is from the Arabian peninsula. Nor is Arabic culture native to Syria, nor to Damascus, nor to Lebanon. All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.

    All peoples who become Mohammedan become culturally Semitic Arabic to a significant degree. That is true of peoples who are not Semitic. Even the Indo-European Persians/Iranians have seen their language partially Semitized as a result of Mohammedanization.

    The vast majority of Kurds are Mohammedan. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is based soundly on Mohammedan ties and identity. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is now tied to the Middle Eastern foreign policy plans of the Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons.

    The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.

    {All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.}

    Of course.
    Absolutely.


    {The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.}

    I have no love for Kurds, to put it mildly.
    I was correcting [Anon]‘s misconception about Turks and Kurds, which is quite common in the blogosphere.

    Regarding Kurds: I am of Armenian descent.
    Although the Armenian genocide was organized and carried out by Turks, Kurds opportunistically and enthusiastically participated in the slaughter, looting, Christian child-stealing,…..
    Kurds in Eastern Turkey (historic Western Armenia) were brought there by Turks after the indigenous Christian Armenians were wiped out by Muslim Turks and Muslim Kurds.
    Armenians have not forgotten Kurds’ participation in the AG.
    Like I said: have no love for treacherous, backstabbing Kurds (…save for a handful of honorable Kurd leaders).

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    • Replies: @Anon
    The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.
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  15. Tillerson is nothing but a puppet of the Zionist neocon controlled U.S. gov where Zionist dual citizens control every facet of the gov and are loyal only to Israel and every decision made is determined so as to benefit Israel.

    This Zionist control of the U.S. gov was proven by the Israeli and deep state attack on 911 and the fact that they got away with it when every thinking person knows they did it. Americans live on a Zionist plantation where we are slaves of the NWO Zionist plan that will make Orwells 1984 seem like a sunday school picnic in comparison.

    ISIS aka AL CIADA is a creation of the U.S. and ISRAEL and BRITAIN, via the CIA and the MOSSAD and MI6 and any other story is total bullshit.

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  16. Kweli says:

    “Ha, ha, ha. Isn’t that funny? One day you’re a terrorist, and the next day you’re not depending on whether Washington can use you or not.”

    Has the US modus operandi been any different in the Middle East? Remember Osama Bin Laden? From hero to terrorist. America as the sole superpower is also the sole evil empire. Truly evil. Throw into the mix, America’s unmitigated racism and divide-and-ruin tactics as fuel for her foreign policy towards people of color. Absent America and her apartheid sponsor Israel, the ME may actually enjoy intermittent periods of peace and prosperity.

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  17. For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed. From that point of view, the Turkish invasion is very convenient. It keeps the pot simmering. Putin has no idea what’s going to happen next and as long as the Turkish army is in Syrian territory, Putin hasn’t won. So I don’t see it as a gaffe or hubris, and I don’t think Tillerson miscalculated. The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. The author’s fuming about Tillerson’s “undermining hopes for a speedy end to the …war” is caused precisely because this keeps Putin bogged down and prevents even his most virulent American supporters from proclaiming him the “winner” in Syria: “Washington is losing the war quite dramatically” (sic!). You will note that the claim that “Putin gave Erdogan the green light” is unsourced, as is the “account of what happened” which purports to be a quote from somewhere. South Front is a wholly anonymous website, hence credibility zero. The whole thing is so simplistic and laid on so thick that even the aforementioned five-year old wouldn’t fall for it!
    By the way, I was amused by the claim that the Russian Federation “is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention”.

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    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    " The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. "

    I wonder, Germany has cancelled selling tanks to Turkey.
    If now Turkey buys tanks from Russia, then I suppose there is proof that Tillerson and Erdogan did not conspire.
    Already Russia has sold Russian anti aircraft missiles to Turkey.
    , @bluedog
    Hmm I think your post can be answered in a very simple manner are we in Syria due to the fact that the Syrian government ask us for help (as they did Russia,Iran and others) or are we party crasher's,the last I suspect who want a slice of another sovereign nation..
    , @Nate

    For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed.

     

    I can't agree with the idea that this action is bogging Putin down. As long as the Idib provience is occupied by Al-Nursra then the SAA and Russian forces have better things to do than to worry about what is happening in Afrin or even NE Syria.

    Your thinking has two flaws: 1) America has complete control of the actions of Turkey. 2) Syria is significantly straining the resources of the RF. If Russian can't afford it's forces in Syria than how can America afford it's forces being spread around everywhere.

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  18. @jacques sheete

    It is the fault of the General manager of the affair CIA
     

    And as we know also that CIA actions are overview d by Mosad.
     

    Did I make a spelling error? Syntax?
    What?
    You are free to disagree.
    I am done biting off people’s heads.

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    • Replies: @Twodees Partain
    This is good news. The biting off of heads is unladylike and may be considered deranged. If you are done, please refrain from the biting off of my head in response to my friendly reply.
    , @jacques sheete
    You did nothing wrong.

    In effect you are correctly stating that Mossad is in charge.
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  19. @jacques sheete

    …nor is [the USA]respected as an honest broker, a dependable ally or a reliable steward of regional security.
     
    Nor should it be and I'm happy to see that the world is finally responding to something the Indians and others learned centuries ago.

    Simply put, Washington is losing the war quite dramatically due in large part to the emergence of a new coalition (Russia-Syria-Iran-Hezbollah) that has made great strides in Syria and that is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention. Washington opposes this system and is doing everything in its power dismantle it by redrawing borders, toppling elected leaders, and installing its own stooges to execute its diktats.
     
    Washington has opposed that system ever since Wilson began spouting , then ignoring, his own 14 points, and FDR ignored his own Atlantic Charter and helped Joey Stalin and the international bankers enslave large parts of the world's population.

    The US has consistently made a mockery of the principles it spouts. The Indians experienced it and the veterans who fought and paid for the Am Rev learned it too. Shay's Rebellion, the Whiskey Rebellion and the War against the South provide further evidence that the institution has never acted on principles of decency.

    It's about time some resistance occurred.

    This is how the USA sees its wars, to the present time, I fear:

    ” Battle of Tarawa – Aftermath:

    In the fighting on Tarawa, only one Japanese officer, 16 enlisted men, and 129 Korean laborers survived out of the original force of 4,690. American losses were a costly 978 killed and 2,188 wounded. The high casualty count quickly caused outrage among Americans ”

    This USA attitude is not particular.
    When the Boer wars with the British were to begin the wife of one of the Boer generals imagined that the war against the Brtish would be like the wars against the local peoples, whose lands the Boers had been taken after The Long Trek, when they left the British Cape Colony, British after these British seized the colony.
    Thee general had to tell his wife that this time there would be casualties on the Boer side.
    He did not yet foresee how many, and that the British would use scorched earth tactics, and create concentration camps.

    Anatol Lieven calculated that in recent wars the ratio of USA deaths to other deaths was one to fifty.

    White civilisation clearly is superior, as Churchill said ‘the higher civilisation has the better weapons’.

    Yet the west does not understand why there is terrorism.
    It may be the western media, that call IS terrorists.

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    • Agree: jacques sheete
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  20. Brabantian says: • Website
    @Jake
    If Turkey did that, the Kurdish State would forever be a total puppet of what The Sakar calls the Anglo-Zionist Empire. That Kurdish State very soon would be the armed camp used to remake Turkey as DC, Tel Aviv, and Riyadh desire.

    It doesn’t matter if Kurdistan will be an ‘Anglo-Zionist’ outpost, if the Kurds are enmeshed with corruption, Israel, the drug trade or anything else … Kurds have a right to self-sovereignty, period, and in international law as well per the UN Charter etc

    Once Kurds have their own state we can then address any mafia activity that extends outside Kurdistan borders … but they have an inalienable right to their own state and to sort out their own affairs

    It’s shocking to me too that there is not more respect for Kurdish self-sovereignty amongst all the ‘ethno-nationists’ etc … who tend to fall into this Raevsky-Saker type line of ‘well, killing Kurds is part of supporting Russia and Iran and opposing Israel’, that is too much Machiavelli for me

    Kurds were promised their own state 100 years ago, got sold out at Versailles & Lausanne right along with the Germans and Palestinians and others … Kurds are clearly an ethnic group of several tens of millions, living in continuous territory, with their own language and ancient culture, distinct from Iran or Arabs, their nationhood continually sabotaged

    One take-away here, after all the Kurdish lives sacrificed for the USA agenda, is that the United States is a worthless, betraying, faithless ‘friend’ or ‘ally’, who will sell you out and abandon you in a minute, just like the US is abandoning the Kurds right now … As Henry Kissinger once said

    It may be dangerous to be America’s enemy, but to be America’s friend is fatal

    Not that the USA betraying allies is ‘new’, but allowing the massacre of Kurds is severely updating the theme, and also giving a poisonous aura to President Trump here as Mr Sell-Out

    The ‘logic’ of the US pulls entirely in the other direction … Support the Kurds and protect them, and the USA collectively undermines the Turks whom the US is arguing with, Syria’s Assad, and also the US’ current boogeyman, Iran, given the Kurdish presence in all 3 countries

    One explanation that fits here, as to why the US is allowing the Kurds to be killed and betrayed yet again, is the idea that a plan is being implemented to fully destroy all respect for the US in the world, as part of the road to implementing a new globalist regime, which people will be led to think is ‘progressive’ because it will be allegedly ‘multi-polar’ (and of course ‘multi-cultural’)

    Read More
    • Replies: @jilles dykstra
    " living in continuous territory "
    So it looks on a map.
    In reality, the mountaineous country is very divided, no easy passage from one valley to the next.
    I suppose this explains why there is no Kurdish nation, the Kurds as a group may have a common language, though I suppose they speak many dialects, they may be ethnically related, those who know the ME immediately recognise them, they may have a common culture, but they're not a nation.
    , @Seamus Padraig
    Washington has been betraying the Kurds for a long time. They would be very foolish to fall into bed with Washington again.
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  21. @Jake
    Turks are historically an abomination to any decent Indo-European people, and that was true before Turks became Mohammedans. And Kurds are Indo-European.

    But the list of pertinent, even essential, facts, is much longer than that. First, Arabic culture is NOT native to the old Roman province of Asia (Asia Minor - today's Asian part of Turkey). Arabic culture is from the Arabian peninsula. Nor is Arabic culture native to Syria, nor to Damascus, nor to Lebanon. All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.

    All peoples who become Mohammedan become culturally Semitic Arabic to a significant degree. That is true of peoples who are not Semitic. Even the Indo-European Persians/Iranians have seen their language partially Semitized as a result of Mohammedanization.

    The vast majority of Kurds are Mohammedan. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is based soundly on Mohammedan ties and identity. Virtually 100% of Kurdish 'nationalism' is now tied to the Middle Eastern foreign policy plans of the Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons.

    The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.

    One must add that the Kurds are not a people in the sense that that there is any cohesion among them.
    In any battle with the Kurds groups of Kurds fought with the enemy.
    After WWII there was a Kurdish republic for a few years, it quickly fell apart trough internal strife.

    Gerard Challand, ‘A People without a Country, The Kurds and Kurdistan’, London, 1980, 1993

    As to the Turkish people, they indeed were invaders, the Ottomans were not local people , but Asian invaders.
    Therefore one cannot attribute Ottoman agression to native Turks.
    The fall of Constantinople was not caused by native Turks.

    Steven Runciman, ‘The fall of Constantinople 1453’, Cambridge 1965

    History is never simple.

    Around 1900, the Ottomans had become sleepy rulers, in how far the Ottoman Sultan really was a religious Muslim can be doubted, his harem certainly had far more than four wives.
    This sleepy rule did not see, or was unable to, restructure the Ottoman society, where any religious group was autonomous, as long as they paid their taxes.

    Mark Mazower, ‘Thessaloniki – stad van geesten, Christenen, moslims en joden 1430 – 1950′, 2007, geen plaats van uitgave, (2004, Salonica – City of Ghosts).

    And so the Ottoman empire became ‘the sick man’, dismembered in WWI.
    Atatürk prevented complete dismemberment, allied plans were that just a small area around Ankara would be Turkey.
    The SW was to be Greek, the SE French, the NW Armenian.
    The war to end all wars, Wilson, was as big a disaster as FDR’s WWII.

    As a British general sighed in the early twenties ‘never did we have so many wars’.
    ‘Thanks’ to the 1921 1923 population exchange between Turkey and Greece the populations hate each other to the present day.
    And a new word was added to the vocabulary ‘balkanisation’.

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  22. Avery says:
    @jacques sheete

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,……everything in its path.
     
    All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?

    Legit question since I know nothing about that history.

    Thanks in advance.

    {All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?}

    Well, I know of Khazars and their adoption of Jewish religion, but do not know how many of them there are in today’s Turkey. And the story of Khazars is a little murky, so do not know. What I know about are the original Turks from East and Central Asia.

    [Davutoglu first visited the tomb of Mahmud Kashgari and then they toured the tomb of Yusuf Has Hajib as well the 500-year-old Id Khah Mosque, the largest mosque in China. "We are visiting the land of our ancestors," Davutoglu said.]*

    [Davutoglu said he started his tour of China from Kashgar, one of the most important cultural spots of the Turkic world and home to two prominent Turkish intellectual figures in history. Mahmud Kashgari was an 11th century Turkic scholar and lexicographer of Turkic languages who studied Turkic dialects of his time and wrote the first comprehensive dictionary of Turkic languages, the Diwanu l-Lugat al-Turk. ]

    Nomadic, warlike Turkic tribes from Central and East Asia (Uyguristan) started moving due West ~1,000+ years ago. They went through Northern Iran, before arriving in Asia Minor around 1,100 A.D. (Battle of Manzikert).
    After conquering lands in East Asia Minor (historic Armenia, Armenian Highlands, Mount Ararat), they continued moving due West. During the next 500 years or so, they defeated the Byzanteen forces and reached the Bosphorus. (e.g. the famous Hagia Sophia church was converted to a mosque around then).

    (Ottoman) Turks proceeded to invade Europe proper, but were finally stopped at the famous Battle of Vienna. Unfortunately, the damage to Asia Minor and to the indigeneous Christian peoples who had lived there for 1,000s of years – Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks – was irreversible.
    Physical appearance of most Turks has of course changed over centruries of forcible mixing of genes with the indigenous peoples: they have lost most of their Asiatic appearance. Also, a large number of peoples in Turkey who call themselves “Turks” are not ethnic Turks at all. This is due to centuries of oppression and forced Turkification by the original Turks. For example, up until very recently Kurds were called ‘Mountain Turks’ by Turk officialdom in a deliberate campaign to erase Kurds’ Kurd identity. Speaking Kurdish in public was punished by beatings or jail.

    So, even though Turks’ appearance has changed, and they have picked up bits and pieces of sedentary peoples’ DNA on the way, Turks retain their ancestral nomadic, savage, destructive blueprint at their core – and act accordingly – even though they are physically no longer nomadic.

    ___________________
    *

    [Turkish FM visits Uighur region during China visit]

    http://uyghuramerican.org/article/turkish-fm-visits-uighur-region-during-china-visit.html

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  23. @Brabantian
    It doesn't matter if Kurdistan will be an 'Anglo-Zionist' outpost, if the Kurds are enmeshed with corruption, Israel, the drug trade or anything else ... Kurds have a right to self-sovereignty, period, and in international law as well per the UN Charter etc

    Once Kurds have their own state we can then address any mafia activity that extends outside Kurdistan borders ... but they have an inalienable right to their own state and to sort out their own affairs

    It's shocking to me too that there is not more respect for Kurdish self-sovereignty amongst all the 'ethno-nationists' etc ... who tend to fall into this Raevsky-Saker type line of 'well, killing Kurds is part of supporting Russia and Iran and opposing Israel', that is too much Machiavelli for me

    Kurds were promised their own state 100 years ago, got sold out at Versailles & Lausanne right along with the Germans and Palestinians and others ... Kurds are clearly an ethnic group of several tens of millions, living in continuous territory, with their own language and ancient culture, distinct from Iran or Arabs, their nationhood continually sabotaged

    One take-away here, after all the Kurdish lives sacrificed for the USA agenda, is that the United States is a worthless, betraying, faithless 'friend' or 'ally', who will sell you out and abandon you in a minute, just like the US is abandoning the Kurds right now ... As Henry Kissinger once said

    It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal
     
    Not that the USA betraying allies is 'new', but allowing the massacre of Kurds is severely updating the theme, and also giving a poisonous aura to President Trump here as Mr Sell-Out

    The 'logic' of the US pulls entirely in the other direction ... Support the Kurds and protect them, and the USA collectively undermines the Turks whom the US is arguing with, Syria's Assad, and also the US' current boogeyman, Iran, given the Kurdish presence in all 3 countries

    One explanation that fits here, as to why the US is allowing the Kurds to be killed and betrayed yet again, is the idea that a plan is being implemented to fully destroy all respect for the US in the world, as part of the road to implementing a new globalist regime, which people will be led to think is 'progressive' because it will be allegedly 'multi-polar' (and of course 'multi-cultural')

    ” living in continuous territory ”
    So it looks on a map.
    In reality, the mountaineous country is very divided, no easy passage from one valley to the next.
    I suppose this explains why there is no Kurdish nation, the Kurds as a group may have a common language, though I suppose they speak many dialects, they may be ethnically related, those who know the ME immediately recognise them, they may have a common culture, but they’re not a nation.

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    • Replies: @Kiza
    Not exactly, not all areas where Kurds live in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran are mountainous, although Kurds are considered mostly the mountain people.

    About five years ago when YPG was invented, I told a friend - oh, no, here we go again. The Kurds appear to trust US and Zionists again to help them create Kurdistan, after they have been used and abused numerous times at a great human toll. Now this is the real reason why Kurds never had their own nation - they are too congenitally stupid to learn from past mistakes, with them it is a constant déjà vu all over again.

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  24. @Michael Kenny
    For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed. From that point of view, the Turkish invasion is very convenient. It keeps the pot simmering. Putin has no idea what’s going to happen next and as long as the Turkish army is in Syrian territory, Putin hasn’t won. So I don’t see it as a gaffe or hubris, and I don’t think Tillerson miscalculated. The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. The author’s fuming about Tillerson’s “undermining hopes for a speedy end to the …war” is caused precisely because this keeps Putin bogged down and prevents even his most virulent American supporters from proclaiming him the “winner” in Syria: “Washington is losing the war quite dramatically” (sic!). You will note that the claim that “Putin gave Erdogan the green light” is unsourced, as is the “account of what happened” which purports to be a quote from somewhere. South Front is a wholly anonymous website, hence credibility zero. The whole thing is so simplistic and laid on so thick that even the aforementioned five-year old wouldn’t fall for it!
    By the way, I was amused by the claim that the Russian Federation “is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention”.

    ” The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. ”

    I wonder, Germany has cancelled selling tanks to Turkey.
    If now Turkey buys tanks from Russia, then I suppose there is proof that Tillerson and Erdogan did not conspire.
    Already Russia has sold Russian anti aircraft missiles to Turkey.

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  25. Washington is fully committed to building an opposition proxy-army in its east Syria enclave that can fend off loyalist troops, launching destabilizing attacks on the regime, and eventually, effecting the political changes that help to achieve its imperial ambitions.

    Yup. Another Camp Bondsteel. That’s Washington’s goal.

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  26. @Brabantian
    It doesn't matter if Kurdistan will be an 'Anglo-Zionist' outpost, if the Kurds are enmeshed with corruption, Israel, the drug trade or anything else ... Kurds have a right to self-sovereignty, period, and in international law as well per the UN Charter etc

    Once Kurds have their own state we can then address any mafia activity that extends outside Kurdistan borders ... but they have an inalienable right to their own state and to sort out their own affairs

    It's shocking to me too that there is not more respect for Kurdish self-sovereignty amongst all the 'ethno-nationists' etc ... who tend to fall into this Raevsky-Saker type line of 'well, killing Kurds is part of supporting Russia and Iran and opposing Israel', that is too much Machiavelli for me

    Kurds were promised their own state 100 years ago, got sold out at Versailles & Lausanne right along with the Germans and Palestinians and others ... Kurds are clearly an ethnic group of several tens of millions, living in continuous territory, with their own language and ancient culture, distinct from Iran or Arabs, their nationhood continually sabotaged

    One take-away here, after all the Kurdish lives sacrificed for the USA agenda, is that the United States is a worthless, betraying, faithless 'friend' or 'ally', who will sell you out and abandon you in a minute, just like the US is abandoning the Kurds right now ... As Henry Kissinger once said

    It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be America's friend is fatal
     
    Not that the USA betraying allies is 'new', but allowing the massacre of Kurds is severely updating the theme, and also giving a poisonous aura to President Trump here as Mr Sell-Out

    The 'logic' of the US pulls entirely in the other direction ... Support the Kurds and protect them, and the USA collectively undermines the Turks whom the US is arguing with, Syria's Assad, and also the US' current boogeyman, Iran, given the Kurdish presence in all 3 countries

    One explanation that fits here, as to why the US is allowing the Kurds to be killed and betrayed yet again, is the idea that a plan is being implemented to fully destroy all respect for the US in the world, as part of the road to implementing a new globalist regime, which people will be led to think is 'progressive' because it will be allegedly 'multi-polar' (and of course 'multi-cultural')

    Washington has been betraying the Kurds for a long time. They would be very foolish to fall into bed with Washington again.

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  27. bluedog says:
    @Michael Kenny
    For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed. From that point of view, the Turkish invasion is very convenient. It keeps the pot simmering. Putin has no idea what’s going to happen next and as long as the Turkish army is in Syrian territory, Putin hasn’t won. So I don’t see it as a gaffe or hubris, and I don’t think Tillerson miscalculated. The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. The author’s fuming about Tillerson’s “undermining hopes for a speedy end to the …war” is caused precisely because this keeps Putin bogged down and prevents even his most virulent American supporters from proclaiming him the “winner” in Syria: “Washington is losing the war quite dramatically” (sic!). You will note that the claim that “Putin gave Erdogan the green light” is unsourced, as is the “account of what happened” which purports to be a quote from somewhere. South Front is a wholly anonymous website, hence credibility zero. The whole thing is so simplistic and laid on so thick that even the aforementioned five-year old wouldn’t fall for it!
    By the way, I was amused by the claim that the Russian Federation “is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention”.

    Hmm I think your post can be answered in a very simple manner are we in Syria due to the fact that the Syrian government ask us for help (as they did Russia,Iran and others) or are we party crasher’s,the last I suspect who want a slice of another sovereign nation..

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  28. Don Bacon says:

    On January 18, US Secretary of State Rex Tillerson announced the creation of a 30,000-man Border Security Force (BSF)
    There is no evidence of that. In fact the opposite is true.
    Jan 17, 2018 — U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson denied that the United States had any intention of building a Syria-Turkey border force and said the issue had been “misportrayed, misdescribed”. “Some people misspoke. We are not creating a border security force at all,” Tillerson told reporters on board an aircraft taking him back to Washington from Vancouver, where he had attended a meeting on North Korea. . . .

    http://www.businessinsider.com/turkey-deploys-tanks-says-will-act-against-us-backed-forces-in-syria-2018-1

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  29. Anonymous • Disclaimer says:

    “Tillerson did it” More sugar coated nonsense from cut n’ paste analyst Whitney. When are the fans going to get sick of the CIA produced lamestream op-eds of alternative media? Don’t you feel so informed now? Matt Taibbi explained the YPG is about left wing hippies and women’s rights with machine guns. Lying shit empire and all of its “journalists.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu

    “Tillerson did it” More sugar coated nonsense from cut n’ paste analyst Whitney. When are the fans going to get sick of the CIA produced lamestream op-eds of alternative media?
     
    Exactly!
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  30. @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Did I make a spelling error? Syntax?
    What?
    You are free to disagree.
    I am done biting off people's heads.

    This is good news. The biting off of heads is unladylike and may be considered deranged. If you are done, please refrain from the biting off of my head in response to my friendly reply.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ilyana_Rozumova
    I am lady of my word. Now I am friend of everyone because I did find out what is this site about.
    It took me a long time. I do have to admit that I am slightly retarded.
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  31. Anon • Disclaimer says:

    Anon from TN
    This is not Tillerson’s personal hubris, this is the hubris of the whole US elite. It appears to be totally deluded and completely out of touch with reality. Current American foreign policy in Syria, Ukraine, on the Korean peninsula, and elsewhere speeds up the crash of the American Empire much more than all our enemies put together. Unfortunately, Trump did not drain the swamp, as he promised. Instead, he continues suicidal policy of that abhorrent swamp.

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  32. Rurik says:

    Here’s what’s going on:

    Blah, blah, blah “Washington”

    blah, blah, blah “Tillerson”

    what a crock of horse manure

    I knew when I started to read this pathetic “analysis” that the coward writing the article would carefully tip toe around the purple gorilla in the room (the Fiend) staring the “Old World Order” down.

    and he has the nads to pen the words “Here’s what’s going on:”

    I’m just a guy who’s been half paying attention, rather than a professional analyst, but at least I’m not a liar by omission.

    What’s really going on is that the Zio-deepstate is putting enough pressure on the Trump administration in an obvious attempt to keep Syria destabilized so that the so-called ‘Shia crescent’ is thwarted as much as possible. They want a Kurdish state to act as a bulwark against Iran/Hezbollah. They want to keep Syria destabilized so that they can eventually steal the Golan Heights from Syria.

    And no, when I say “they”, I don’t mean Tillerson and Trump. (dumbass ; )

    I mean the Lukidniks who’re increasingly running Trump’s foreign policy. You know dumbass, the Zionist neocons that have been waging wars in the Middle East on Israel’s behalf, especially since they perpetrated 9/11 to augment that goal.

    I know you’ve never heard of Zionism or neocons, have never heard of the Golan Heights or probably not even the word “Jew” in your lifetime, but that is the hard and harsh realities that people read thoughtful analysis to understand. Not dissembling and lies and obfuscation, which seems to be your specialty.

    What people really want to know is how wide is the rift between the ZUS and Ankara. Erdogan was happy to see Syria come apart at the seams when he figured he’d be able to steal her northern oil fields, but not so happy about it when it looks like a nascent Kurdish state on his border.

    Is Erdogan slipping into Putin’s orbit. Did the assassination/coup attempt have anything to do with that?

    Russia wants the sovereign borders of Syria recognized, (part of that Old World Order you were on about), but this is nothing less than a Holocaust redux to Bibi and his cabal of Jewish supremacists in the Knesset / diaspora. (you know, like the neocons; people you’re not even aware of ; )

    Acting like Tillerson is his own man, (or even Trump for that matter), when we all know they’re being forced to participate in the Middle East bloodbath by Jewish neocons and Zionist, Jewish supremacists, is dishonestly most foul. And insulting to those who come here to read actual analysis to get a better understanding of the forces shaping our world.

    Read More
    • Agree: Carroll Price
    • Replies: @Jesse James
    You are quite correct. Trump has been boxed-up or cowed into submission. His administration just caved on deporting 1.8 million-plus illegal aliens in return for building a 30-50 billion dollar southern US border wall. A monstrosity that is 50 years too late to offset the Trotskyites' Third World colored peoples' invasion.
    Chinese emperors built a series of walls 700-800 years ago to keep out hordes of the unwanted.
    , @poop
    I would add another goal of the Kurdish "Border Protection Force" would be to eventually give Erdogan the "Syria Treatment" if he didn't "get with the program." This would have been obvious to the Turks, and Tillerson's comments were mostly the causus belli for ultimately invading (their troops were already massed at the border). The Turks weren't going to let that crap happen, nor should they.
    , @augusto
    Rurik, seems to me the x of the question from the author is simply IF and to what an extent this (this border support or state with Kurds) is a big blunder or not.
    It is not about distinguishing who is/how much is behind the curtains controlling the puppet strings.
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  33. utu says:
    @Anonymous
    “Tillerson did it” More sugar coated nonsense from cut n’ paste analyst Whitney. When are the fans going to get sick of the CIA produced lamestream op-eds of alternative media? Don’t you feel so informed now? Matt Taibbi explained the YPG is about left wing hippies and women’s rights with machine guns. Lying shit empire and all of its “journalists.”

    “Tillerson did it” More sugar coated nonsense from cut n’ paste analyst Whitney. When are the fans going to get sick of the CIA produced lamestream op-eds of alternative media?

    Exactly!

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  34. @Twodees Partain
    This is good news. The biting off of heads is unladylike and may be considered deranged. If you are done, please refrain from the biting off of my head in response to my friendly reply.

    I am lady of my word. Now I am friend of everyone because I did find out what is this site about.
    It took me a long time. I do have to admit that I am slightly retarded.

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  35. Kiza says:
    @jilles dykstra
    " living in continuous territory "
    So it looks on a map.
    In reality, the mountaineous country is very divided, no easy passage from one valley to the next.
    I suppose this explains why there is no Kurdish nation, the Kurds as a group may have a common language, though I suppose they speak many dialects, they may be ethnically related, those who know the ME immediately recognise them, they may have a common culture, but they're not a nation.

    Not exactly, not all areas where Kurds live in Iraq, Turkey, Syria and Iran are mountainous, although Kurds are considered mostly the mountain people.

    About five years ago when YPG was invented, I told a friend – oh, no, here we go again. The Kurds appear to trust US and Zionists again to help them create Kurdistan, after they have been used and abused numerous times at a great human toll. Now this is the real reason why Kurds never had their own nation – they are too congenitally stupid to learn from past mistakes, with them it is a constant déjà vu all over again.

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  36. Anon • Disclaimer says:
    @Avery
    {All Arabic culture outside the Arabian peninsula is there via slaughter to spread Mohammedanism.}

    Of course.
    Absolutely.


    {The Kurds are nothing more than pawns for Israelis, Saudis, and Neocons to remake the entire Middle East as they desire.}

    I have no love for Kurds, to put it mildly.
    I was correcting [Anon]'s misconception about Turks and Kurds, which is quite common in the blogosphere.

    Regarding Kurds: I am of Armenian descent.
    Although the Armenian genocide was organized and carried out by Turks, Kurds opportunistically and enthusiastically participated in the slaughter, looting, Christian child-stealing,.....
    Kurds in Eastern Turkey (historic Western Armenia) were brought there by Turks after the indigenous Christian Armenians were wiped out by Muslim Turks and Muslim Kurds.
    Armenians have not forgotten Kurds' participation in the AG.
    Like I said: have no love for treacherous, backstabbing Kurds (...save for a handful of honorable Kurd leaders).

    The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    That is historically untrue. Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica. The Romans may have killed a few polytheists when they conquered Asia Minor in 130 BC, but the Romans were polytheists at the time, too.
    , @nebulafox
    Until the Seljuks swept in, Anatolia was a Hellenized place-legacy of Alexander the Great. Since Christianity largely sprang from Hellenized Judaism, it was always strongest in provinces like Anatolia, and in the eastern part of the Roman Empire in general. Conversion got on a pretty steady roll during the last centuries of the Roman Empire.
    , @Wally
    Proof?
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  37. Rurik says:

    Russia bears the ultimate responsibility for suspected chemical weapons attacks committed by the Syrian regime, the US secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, has said

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/rex-tillerson-russia-bears-responsibility-for-syria-chemical-attacks

    “Whoever conducted the attacks, Russia ultimately bears responsibility for the victims in East Ghouta and countless other Syrians targeted with chemical weapons, since Russia became involved in Syria,” Tillerson told reporters.

    Tillerson said that “Russia’s failure to resolve the chemical weapons issue in Syria calls into question its relevance to the resolution of the overall crisis.”

    check out that map at the link

    https://theintercept.com/2018/01/23/israel-syria-safe-buffer-zone-golan-heights/

    if the world is to be dragged into a war between the zio-west vs. Russia, (that may very easily go nuke) it will likely be over the fate of the Golan Heights.

    No one here believes for one second that Russia had anything to do with a chemical attack in Syria.

    We all know Tillerson is lying. We also all know he’s lying on Israel’s behalf, at the expense of the rest of the world’s people.

    Just replace Powell here

    with Tillerson, because nothing has changed

    just like with the lies about MH17, these are more lies that the entire Rothschild controlled west have to parrot.

    but we don’t

    those of us who are free (and honest ; ) can still tell the truth

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    • Replies: @EliteCommInc.
    I think you can one better.

    The evidence more than suggests there was no chemical attack.
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  38. @Anon
    If Turks had sense, they would give a piece of Turkey to the Kurds and then push all Kurds into it.
    Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey like Palestinians are to Israel.

    The festering presence in Palestine? That would be the supremacist usurpers who the world refers to as Jews.

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  39. @Rurik

    Here’s what’s going on:
     
    Blah, blah, blah “Washington”

    blah, blah, blah “Tillerson”

    what a crock of horse manure

    I knew when I started to read this pathetic “analysis” that the coward writing the article would carefully tip toe around the purple gorilla in the room (the Fiend) staring the “Old World Order” down.

    and he has the nads to pen the words “Here’s what’s going on:”

    I’m just a guy who’s been half paying attention, rather than a professional analyst, but at least I’m not a liar by omission.

    What’s really going on is that the Zio-deepstate is putting enough pressure on the Trump administration in an obvious attempt to keep Syria destabilized so that the so-called ‘Shia crescent’ is thwarted as much as possible. They want a Kurdish state to act as a bulwark against Iran/Hezbollah. They want to keep Syria destabilized so that they can eventually steal the Golan Heights from Syria.

    And no, when I say “they”, I don’t mean Tillerson and Trump. (dumbass ; )

    I mean the Lukidniks who’re increasingly running Trump's foreign policy. You know dumbass, the Zionist neocons that have been waging wars in the Middle East on Israel’s behalf, especially since they perpetrated 9/11 to augment that goal.

    I know you’ve never heard of Zionism or neocons, have never heard of the Golan Heights or probably not even the word “Jew” in your lifetime, but that is the hard and harsh realities that people read thoughtful analysis to understand. Not dissembling and lies and obfuscation, which seems to be your specialty.

    What people really want to know is how wide is the rift between the ZUS and Ankara. Erdogan was happy to see Syria come apart at the seams when he figured he’d be able to steal her northern oil fields, but not so happy about it when it looks like a nascent Kurdish state on his border.

    Is Erdogan slipping into Putin’s orbit. Did the assassination/coup attempt have anything to do with that?

    Russia wants the sovereign borders of Syria recognized, (part of that Old World Order you were on about), but this is nothing less than a Holocaust redux to Bibi and his cabal of Jewish supremacists in the Knesset / diaspora. (you know, like the neocons; people you’re not even aware of ; )

    Acting like Tillerson is his own man, (or even Trump for that matter), when we all know they’re being forced to participate in the Middle East bloodbath by Jewish neocons and Zionist, Jewish supremacists, is dishonestly most foul. And insulting to those who come here to read actual analysis to get a better understanding of the forces shaping our world.

    You are quite correct. Trump has been boxed-up or cowed into submission. His administration just caved on deporting 1.8 million-plus illegal aliens in return for building a 30-50 billion dollar southern US border wall. A monstrosity that is 50 years too late to offset the Trotskyites’ Third World colored peoples’ invasion.
    Chinese emperors built a series of walls 700-800 years ago to keep out hordes of the unwanted.

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  40. poop says:
    @Rurik

    Here’s what’s going on:
     
    Blah, blah, blah “Washington”

    blah, blah, blah “Tillerson”

    what a crock of horse manure

    I knew when I started to read this pathetic “analysis” that the coward writing the article would carefully tip toe around the purple gorilla in the room (the Fiend) staring the “Old World Order” down.

    and he has the nads to pen the words “Here’s what’s going on:”

    I’m just a guy who’s been half paying attention, rather than a professional analyst, but at least I’m not a liar by omission.

    What’s really going on is that the Zio-deepstate is putting enough pressure on the Trump administration in an obvious attempt to keep Syria destabilized so that the so-called ‘Shia crescent’ is thwarted as much as possible. They want a Kurdish state to act as a bulwark against Iran/Hezbollah. They want to keep Syria destabilized so that they can eventually steal the Golan Heights from Syria.

    And no, when I say “they”, I don’t mean Tillerson and Trump. (dumbass ; )

    I mean the Lukidniks who’re increasingly running Trump's foreign policy. You know dumbass, the Zionist neocons that have been waging wars in the Middle East on Israel’s behalf, especially since they perpetrated 9/11 to augment that goal.

    I know you’ve never heard of Zionism or neocons, have never heard of the Golan Heights or probably not even the word “Jew” in your lifetime, but that is the hard and harsh realities that people read thoughtful analysis to understand. Not dissembling and lies and obfuscation, which seems to be your specialty.

    What people really want to know is how wide is the rift between the ZUS and Ankara. Erdogan was happy to see Syria come apart at the seams when he figured he’d be able to steal her northern oil fields, but not so happy about it when it looks like a nascent Kurdish state on his border.

    Is Erdogan slipping into Putin’s orbit. Did the assassination/coup attempt have anything to do with that?

    Russia wants the sovereign borders of Syria recognized, (part of that Old World Order you were on about), but this is nothing less than a Holocaust redux to Bibi and his cabal of Jewish supremacists in the Knesset / diaspora. (you know, like the neocons; people you’re not even aware of ; )

    Acting like Tillerson is his own man, (or even Trump for that matter), when we all know they’re being forced to participate in the Middle East bloodbath by Jewish neocons and Zionist, Jewish supremacists, is dishonestly most foul. And insulting to those who come here to read actual analysis to get a better understanding of the forces shaping our world.

    I would add another goal of the Kurdish “Border Protection Force” would be to eventually give Erdogan the “Syria Treatment” if he didn’t “get with the program.” This would have been obvious to the Turks, and Tillerson’s comments were mostly the causus belli for ultimately invading (their troops were already massed at the border). The Turks weren’t going to let that crap happen, nor should they.

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  41. @Ilyana_Rozumova
    Did I make a spelling error? Syntax?
    What?
    You are free to disagree.
    I am done biting off people's heads.

    You did nothing wrong.

    In effect you are correctly stating that Mossad is in charge.

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  42. Rich says:
    @Anon
    The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.

    That is historically untrue. Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica. The Romans may have killed a few polytheists when they conquered Asia Minor in 130 BC, but the Romans were polytheists at the time, too.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.}[Anon]
    {That is historically untrue.}[Rich]

    Correct: not true.

    {Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica.}

    Armenia was part of Eastern Roman Empire, aka Byzantium, for some periods.
    Also part of Sassanid/Persian Empire.
    But Armenians did not adopt Christianity in 380AD or as a result of an Edict.
    Armenia adopted Christianity in 301AD, the first nation to officially do so, by the order of Armenian King Trdat IV. Also, Christianity had been in Armenia before that date, but was not officially declared as the nation's religion until 301AD.

    Christianity was brought to Armenia by apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus, hence the name of the Armenian orthodox* church: Armenian Apostolic.

    Certainly there was some pushback against the official declaration by King Trdat IV, and there was associated violence also, but no widespread 'slaughter' as is being alleged.

    _________________
    *
    There are Armenian Catholics, Armenian Protestants, etc also.

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  43. Avery says:
    @Rich
    That is historically untrue. Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica. The Romans may have killed a few polytheists when they conquered Asia Minor in 130 BC, but the Romans were polytheists at the time, too.

    {The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.}[Anon]
    {That is historically untrue.}[Rich]

    Correct: not true.

    {Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica.}

    Armenia was part of Eastern Roman Empire, aka Byzantium, for some periods.
    Also part of Sassanid/Persian Empire.
    But Armenians did not adopt Christianity in 380AD or as a result of an Edict.
    Armenia adopted Christianity in 301AD, the first nation to officially do so, by the order of Armenian King Trdat IV. Also, Christianity had been in Armenia before that date, but was not officially declared as the nation’s religion until 301AD.

    Christianity was brought to Armenia by apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus, hence the name of the Armenian orthodox* church: Armenian Apostolic.

    Certainly there was some pushback against the official declaration by King Trdat IV, and there was associated violence also, but no widespread ‘slaughter’ as is being alleged.

    _________________
    *
    There are Armenian Catholics, Armenian Protestants, etc also.

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    • Replies: @Rich
    You are right, of course, Christianity arrived in Armenia before the Edict of Thessalonica, and I believe was adopted by the Armenian king, but as Armenia was a Roman province, Christianity wasn't the only religion until after the Imperial Decree. Armenians, under the Romans, could still legally practice polytheism before the Edict.
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  44. nebulafox says:
    @Anon
    The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.

    Until the Seljuks swept in, Anatolia was a Hellenized place-legacy of Alexander the Great. Since Christianity largely sprang from Hellenized Judaism, it was always strongest in provinces like Anatolia, and in the eastern part of the Roman Empire in general. Conversion got on a pretty steady roll during the last centuries of the Roman Empire.

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  45. @Intelligent Dasein
    Tillerson has been useless at State and needs to go. I can't understand why Trump continues to staff the White House with swamp creatures and members of the parasitical elite. There are plenty of people here on the Alt-Right who would have been happy to serve and would have done a million times better.

    Intelligent Dasein says: I can’t understand why Trump continues to staff the White House with swamp creatures and members of the parasitical elite.

    That’s because Trump himself is a member of the “parasitical elite” who flatters himself with his misperception that he is NOT one of the “parasitical elite.” As for the swamp creatures, “Trump’s behavior shows clearly that he’s not one of the swamp creatures because he simply isn’t smart enough or bold enough to be admitted to the swamp. Trump loves to fire incompetent people but when he’s confronted by someone he cannot fire or who doesn’t give a shit if he’s fired, he (Trump) doesn’t know how to react.

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  46. Rich says:
    @Avery
    {The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.}[Anon]
    {That is historically untrue.}[Rich]

    Correct: not true.

    {Present day Turkey was a part of the Roman Empire, as was Armenia, and were converted by imperial decree in 380AD with the Edict of Thessalonica.}

    Armenia was part of Eastern Roman Empire, aka Byzantium, for some periods.
    Also part of Sassanid/Persian Empire.
    But Armenians did not adopt Christianity in 380AD or as a result of an Edict.
    Armenia adopted Christianity in 301AD, the first nation to officially do so, by the order of Armenian King Trdat IV. Also, Christianity had been in Armenia before that date, but was not officially declared as the nation's religion until 301AD.

    Christianity was brought to Armenia by apostles Bartholomew and Thaddeus, hence the name of the Armenian orthodox* church: Armenian Apostolic.

    Certainly there was some pushback against the official declaration by King Trdat IV, and there was associated violence also, but no widespread 'slaughter' as is being alleged.

    _________________
    *
    There are Armenian Catholics, Armenian Protestants, etc also.

    You are right, of course, Christianity arrived in Armenia before the Edict of Thessalonica, and I believe was adopted by the Armenian king, but as Armenia was a Roman province, Christianity wasn’t the only religion until after the Imperial Decree. Armenians, under the Romans, could still legally practice polytheism before the Edict.

    Read More
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  47. Wally says:
    @Anon
    The christians slaughtered the polytheist people who lived there before though.

    Proof?

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  48. Cary says:

    @ Rurik

    Everything you said is true. Let’s stop all this obfuscation. I spent a little time to research the meme “Assad must go”. It just so happens that it surfaced just at the moment that Netanyahu was in “negotiations” with Assad over the Golan Heights and as to when this piece of stolen Syrian land would be returned. All of Israel’s negotiations are a sham because they have never had any intention of returning anything. Everything we do in the ME is for Israel, period. Kurdish “homeland”, please be serious. It’s all a ploy to destabilize all those countries that have Kurdish people in them. What possible benefit could it be to the US. At least now with Trump’s declaration of the embassy move the whole world can now plainly see that we can no longer be considered an honest broke in the ME and we will finally get the hell out of there. If only.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rurik (from another location)

    the meme “Assad must go”. It just so happens that it surfaced just at the moment that Netanyahu was in “negotiations” with Assad over the Golan Heights and as to when this piece of stolen Syrian land would be returned. All of Israel’s negotiations are a sham because they have never had any intention of returning anything.
     
    yep

    Everything we do in the ME is for Israel, period. Kurdish “homeland”, please be serious. It’s all a ploy to destabilize all those countries that have Kurdish people in them. What possible benefit could it be to the US.
     
    Pretending like the serial destabilizations the ZUS is perpetrating around the world (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc..) have nothing to do with Israel, is like pretending that the Palestinian resistance has nothing whatsoever to do with the occupation.

    It ignores the purple gorilla in the middle of the room. And, it's a calculated dishonesty.

    As for benefits to the US; there are none. Whereas the list of harms and costs- morally, financially, spiritually, historically.. are incalculable. Not just to the US, but to so many others as well.

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  49. It was hard to get past the first paragraph of this. Calling this Sec Tillerson’s idea, plan, mock-up, suggestion is a reach.

    This is an interventionists scheme, just handed to Sec Tillerson, and if it goes badly, they lay the blame on him.

    The Pres of the US continues betray his stated commitment to draw down conflicts in my view. Pretending to have a backbone by falling the lead of others whose interventionists schemes have been floating around for more than twenty-five years is child’s play. Now Sec Tillerson has been on board interventions since he came into office. I had hoped that a view of what these needless interventionist really mean would temper his enthusiasm for toppling Syria and needlessly provoking Russia, buy apparently the game is a foot.

    Note: President trump is only building on the foolishness begun before, but it remains a disappointment.

    My response for the Kurds. We never should have supported the idea of carving out a space for them in Iraq. It’s sovereign and that is a matter for Iraqis to decide.

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  50. @Rurik

    Russia bears the ultimate responsibility for suspected chemical weapons attacks committed by the Syrian regime, the US secretary of state, Rex Tillerson, has said
     
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/jan/23/rex-tillerson-russia-bears-responsibility-for-syria-chemical-attacks


    “Whoever conducted the attacks, Russia ultimately bears responsibility for the victims in East Ghouta and countless other Syrians targeted with chemical weapons, since Russia became involved in Syria,” Tillerson told reporters.
     

    Tillerson said that “Russia’s failure to resolve the chemical weapons issue in Syria calls into question its relevance to the resolution of the overall crisis.”
     
    check out that map at the link

    https://theintercept.com/2018/01/23/israel-syria-safe-buffer-zone-golan-heights/

    if the world is to be dragged into a war between the zio-west vs. Russia, (that may very easily go nuke) it will likely be over the fate of the Golan Heights.

    No one here believes for one second that Russia had anything to do with a chemical attack in Syria.

    We all know Tillerson is lying. We also all know he's lying on Israel's behalf, at the expense of the rest of the world's people.

    Just replace Powell here

    https://www.welt.de/img/geschichte/mobile113393466/2032503687-ci102l-w1024/Powell-bedauert-seinen-Auftritt-vor-der-UN.jpg

    with Tillerson, because nothing has changed

    just like with the lies about MH17, these are more lies that the entire Rothschild controlled west have to parrot.

    but we don't

    those of us who are free (and honest ; ) can still tell the truth

    I think you can one better.

    The evidence more than suggests there was no chemical attack.

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  51. i understand that many here want there to be distance between Sec Tillerson and Pres trump. but understand, I voted for this admin. because I believed that Pres Trump had a tough enough backbone to stand.

    And I expect him to stand, despite Damocles’s Sword. It could be gamesmanship, but thus far, standing does not seem to be his strong suit.

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  52. @Cary
    @ Rurik


    Everything you said is true. Let's stop all this obfuscation. I spent a little time to research the meme "Assad must go". It just so happens that it surfaced just at the moment that Netanyahu was in "negotiations" with Assad over the Golan Heights and as to when this piece of stolen Syrian land would be returned. All of Israel's negotiations are a sham because they have never had any intention of returning anything. Everything we do in the ME is for Israel, period. Kurdish "homeland", please be serious. It's all a ploy to destabilize all those countries that have Kurdish people in them. What possible benefit could it be to the US. At least now with Trump's declaration of the embassy move the whole world can now plainly see that we can no longer be considered an honest broke in the ME and we will finally get the hell out of there. If only.

    the meme “Assad must go”. It just so happens that it surfaced just at the moment that Netanyahu was in “negotiations” with Assad over the Golan Heights and as to when this piece of stolen Syrian land would be returned. All of Israel’s negotiations are a sham because they have never had any intention of returning anything.

    yep

    Everything we do in the ME is for Israel, period. Kurdish “homeland”, please be serious. It’s all a ploy to destabilize all those countries that have Kurdish people in them. What possible benefit could it be to the US.

    Pretending like the serial destabilizations the ZUS is perpetrating around the world (Iraq, Libya, Syria, etc..) have nothing to do with Israel, is like pretending that the Palestinian resistance has nothing whatsoever to do with the occupation.

    It ignores the purple gorilla in the middle of the room. And, it’s a calculated dishonesty.

    As for benefits to the US; there are none. Whereas the list of harms and costs- morally, financially, spiritually, historically.. are incalculable. Not just to the US, but to so many others as well.

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  53. Rurik says:

    here’s an analyst with the integrity to tell the OBVIOUS truth

    http://www.unz.com/proberts/trumps-foreign-policy-is-in-service-to-israel/

    perhaps Mr. Whitney would be well advised to peddle his tripe at The American Cuckservative

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/syrian-kurds-the-other-woman-in-americas-relationship-with-turkey/

    where they do at least brush up against actual analysis

    In an even more provocative move, Erdogan signed a $2.5 billion deal in late December 2017 to purchase Russian S-400 air defense missiles.

    even as they shill the horse manure we’re used to by now from the usual cowards

    Given the affection for Kurdish allies in both Iraq and Syria among influential Americans—especially conservatives and neoconservatives—…

    putting ‘conservatives’ and ‘neoconservatives’ in the same context vis-a-vis the Kurdish fiasco

    So, who is this mystery “conservative” that The “American Conservative” webzine is citing as one of their ideological own? (with a link to the “conservative” Huffington Post with his article)

    Well, it turns out that he’s chimed in previously on issues in the region.

    This is the “conservative”, (as opposed to the ‘neoconservative’), that The American Cuckservative wants us to consider, (since he’s like Pat Buchannan and the rest of us [actual] conservatives), for the non-neoconservative view…

    Etzioni served in the Haganah — the army that formed Israel after violently expelling three-quarters of the indigenous Palestinian population — from 1946 to 1948, and then served in the Israeli military from 1948 to 1950.

    https://www.salon.com/2016/02/18/prominent_american_professor_proposes_that_israel_flatten_beirut_a_1_million_person_city_it_previously_decimated/

    so it turns out that the vaunted voice of ‘conservatism’, (as opposed to ((John Bolton’s neo-conservatism))), comes from a rabidly murderous Zionist Jew who actually participated in the genocidal slaughter of Palestinians. And who now advocated the utter destruction of Beirut, (up to a million civilian deaths notwithstanding), in order to bolster Israel’s criminal and genocidal atrocities writ large in the region.

    That’s who we should all consider the voice of “conservatism’, from the webzine that calls itself The American Conservative.

    check em out Mike

    I’m sure you’ll find a sympathetic and lucrative home there for your rather special brand of “analysis’

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    • Replies: @augusto
    Of course did the hezbollayeens prepare a counter measure to that zio plan.
    It is enough that the zionists now in power in telaviv be put into a situation of "cannot pay the price.'
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  54. turk151 says:
    @jacques sheete

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,……everything in its path.
     
    All Turks or the Turkish Khazars, or what?

    Legit question since I know nothing about that history.

    Thanks in advance.

    What the Turks did was terrible, but you never hear:

    Jews talking this way about Germans,
    Native Indians talking this way about White Americans
    Koreans or Chinese talking this way about the Japanese
    Black Americans talking this way about Whites

    Armenians have been given a free pass to make the make the most outrageously racist remarks.

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    • Replies: @Avery
    {Jews talking this way about Germans,
    Native Indians talking this way about White Americans
    Koreans or Chinese talking this way about the Japanese
    Black Americans talking this way about Whites}

    Germany (the State) and the German people have acknowledge the Nazi crimes, and have atoned for the crimes of their Nazi predecessors. And then some. German officialdom does not deny what Nazis did.

    White America has done whatever it practically can to ameliorate the inadvertent damage caused to Native Americans by European settlers. White America does not deny what was done to Native Americans.

    White America has done whatever it practically can to ameliorate the damage caused due to slavery and racism towards Black Americans. I can't think of any other country in the world, Africa included, where Blacks have the standard of living that is even close to those of African-Americans. A man, who considers himself Black, was voted POTUS. Twice. By White Americans. White America neither denies the fact of slavery nor racism in America when it happened. Federal, State, and local laws severely punish any discrimination against Blacks.

    {Armenians have been given a free pass to make the make the most outrageously racist remarks.}

    The Turkish state, Turkish NGOs, Turkish intellectuals (....with a couple of notable exceptions), Turk people at large deny the Armenian Genocide conceived, organized, and carried out by Muslim Turks. Muslim Turks, savage nomads from Uyguristan, invaded Asia Minor and wiped out the sedentary, indigenous, creative Christian civilizations of Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks.

    Not only Turks deny the AG, but there is a well financed, well organized Turkish denialist machine that seeks to punish 3rd parties who do recognize the AG.

    In Turkey, calling a Turk and 'Armenian' is an insult.
    The head Islamist Turk just recently confirmed it*

    ["I was called a Georgian. I apologize for this, but they even said [something] worse: They called me an Armenian," Erdogan said during an interview with NTV, according to a translation from Today's Zaman newspaper. "But I'm a Turk."]

    There certainly are many honorable Turks.
    But at the core, overwhelming majority of Turks are the same savage nomadic Turks who invaded Asia Minor centuries ago. The proof is the above statement by Erdogan.

    And Yes, I am of Armenian descent, and I approve this message.

    _________________
    *
    [Is ‘Armenian’ an insult? Turkey’s prime minister seems to think so.]
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/08/06/is-armenian-an-insult-turkeys-prime-minister-seems-to-think-so/?utm_term=.1ad3213ed7b9

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  55. Avery says:
    @turk151
    What the Turks did was terrible, but you never hear:

    Jews talking this way about Germans,
    Native Indians talking this way about White Americans
    Koreans or Chinese talking this way about the Japanese
    Black Americans talking this way about Whites

    Armenians have been given a free pass to make the make the most outrageously racist remarks.

    {Jews talking this way about Germans,
    Native Indians talking this way about White Americans
    Koreans or Chinese talking this way about the Japanese
    Black Americans talking this way about Whites}

    Germany (the State) and the German people have acknowledge the Nazi crimes, and have atoned for the crimes of their Nazi predecessors. And then some. German officialdom does not deny what Nazis did.

    White America has done whatever it practically can to ameliorate the inadvertent damage caused to Native Americans by European settlers. White America does not deny what was done to Native Americans.

    White America has done whatever it practically can to ameliorate the damage caused due to slavery and racism towards Black Americans. I can’t think of any other country in the world, Africa included, where Blacks have the standard of living that is even close to those of African-Americans. A man, who considers himself Black, was voted POTUS. Twice. By White Americans. White America neither denies the fact of slavery nor racism in America when it happened. Federal, State, and local laws severely punish any discrimination against Blacks.

    {Armenians have been given a free pass to make the make the most outrageously racist remarks.}

    The Turkish state, Turkish NGOs, Turkish intellectuals (….with a couple of notable exceptions), Turk people at large deny the Armenian Genocide conceived, organized, and carried out by Muslim Turks. Muslim Turks, savage nomads from Uyguristan, invaded Asia Minor and wiped out the sedentary, indigenous, creative Christian civilizations of Armenians, Assyrians, and Pontic Greeks.

    Not only Turks deny the AG, but there is a well financed, well organized Turkish denialist machine that seeks to punish 3rd parties who do recognize the AG.

    In Turkey, calling a Turk and ‘Armenian’ is an insult.
    The head Islamist Turk just recently confirmed it*

    ["I was called a Georgian. I apologize for this, but they even said [something] worse: They called me an Armenian,” Erdogan said during an interview with NTV, according to a translation from Today’s Zaman newspaper. “But I’m a Turk.”]

    There certainly are many honorable Turks.
    But at the core, overwhelming majority of Turks are the same savage nomadic Turks who invaded Asia Minor centuries ago. The proof is the above statement by Erdogan.

    And Yes, I am of Armenian descent, and I approve this message.

    _________________
    *
    [Is ‘Armenian’ an insult? Turkey’s prime minister seems to think so.]

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/08/06/is-armenian-an-insult-turkeys-prime-minister-seems-to-think-so/?utm_term=.1ad3213ed7b9

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  56. Now who is the “fucking moron”, Rex?

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  57. Nate says:
    @Michael Kenny
    For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed. From that point of view, the Turkish invasion is very convenient. It keeps the pot simmering. Putin has no idea what’s going to happen next and as long as the Turkish army is in Syrian territory, Putin hasn’t won. So I don’t see it as a gaffe or hubris, and I don’t think Tillerson miscalculated. The whole thing has probably been arranged between Tillerson and Erdogan. The author’s fuming about Tillerson’s “undermining hopes for a speedy end to the …war” is caused precisely because this keeps Putin bogged down and prevents even his most virulent American supporters from proclaiming him the “winner” in Syria: “Washington is losing the war quite dramatically” (sic!). You will note that the claim that “Putin gave Erdogan the green light” is unsourced, as is the “account of what happened” which purports to be a quote from somewhere. South Front is a wholly anonymous website, hence credibility zero. The whole thing is so simplistic and laid on so thick that even the aforementioned five-year old wouldn’t fall for it!
    By the way, I was amused by the claim that the Russian Federation “is committed to preserve the Old World Order, a system that is built on the principles of national sovereignty, self determination and non intervention”.

    For the US there are only three possible strategies in Syria: let Putin win, fight Putin now or bog him down so as to fight him later. The third strategy seems to be the one being followed.

    I can’t agree with the idea that this action is bogging Putin down. As long as the Idib provience is occupied by Al-Nursra then the SAA and Russian forces have better things to do than to worry about what is happening in Afrin or even NE Syria.

    Your thinking has two flaws: 1) America has complete control of the actions of Turkey. 2) Syria is significantly straining the resources of the RF. If Russian can’t afford it’s forces in Syria than how can America afford it’s forces being spread around everywhere.

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  58. augusto says: • Website

    We, south americans are pretty happy as the Potomac river bank gringos keep and prove so uncomparably stupid and infinitely mind retarded.
    But I see they always got a relief alibi.
    It is that since American deep state and MIC must walk together, they are confident.
    Confident that their asinine blunder of today might easily be fixed up by a blunder of tomorrow.

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  59. augusto says: • Website
    @Rurik
    here's an analyst with the integrity to tell the OBVIOUS truth

    http://www.unz.com/proberts/trumps-foreign-policy-is-in-service-to-israel/

    perhaps Mr. Whitney would be well advised to peddle his tripe at The American Cuckservative

    http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/syrian-kurds-the-other-woman-in-americas-relationship-with-turkey/

    where they do at least brush up against actual analysis

    In an even more provocative move, Erdogan signed a $2.5 billion deal in late December 2017 to purchase Russian S-400 air defense missiles.
     
    even as they shill the horse manure we're used to by now from the usual cowards

    Given the affection for Kurdish allies in both Iraq and Syria among influential Americans—especially conservatives and neoconservatives—...
     
    putting 'conservatives' and 'neoconservatives' in the same context vis-a-vis the Kurdish fiasco

    So, who is this mystery "conservative" that The "American Conservative" webzine is citing as one of their ideological own? (with a link to the "conservative" Huffington Post with his article)

    Well, it turns out that he's chimed in previously on issues in the region.

    https://static.independent.co.uk/s3fs-public/styles/story_medium/public/indy100/Z1Lop_em0e/8773-hmbpx0.jpg

    This is the "conservative", (as opposed to the 'neoconservative'), that The American Cuckservative wants us to consider, (since he's like Pat Buchannan and the rest of us [actual] conservatives), for the non-neoconservative view...

    Etzioni served in the Haganah — the army that formed Israel after violently expelling three-quarters of the indigenous Palestinian population — from 1946 to 1948, and then served in the Israeli military from 1948 to 1950.
     
    https://www.salon.com/2016/02/18/prominent_american_professor_proposes_that_israel_flatten_beirut_a_1_million_person_city_it_previously_decimated/

    so it turns out that the vaunted voice of 'conservatism', (as opposed to ((John Bolton's neo-conservatism))), comes from a rabidly murderous Zionist Jew who actually participated in the genocidal slaughter of Palestinians. And who now advocated the utter destruction of Beirut, (up to a million civilian deaths notwithstanding), in order to bolster Israel's criminal and genocidal atrocities writ large in the region.

    That's who we should all consider the voice of "conservatism', from the webzine that calls itself The American Conservative.

    check em out Mike

    I'm sure you'll find a sympathetic and lucrative home there for your rather special brand of "analysis'

    Of course did the hezbollayeens prepare a counter measure to that zio plan.
    It is enough that the zionists now in power in telaviv be put into a situation of “cannot pay the price.’

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  60. augusto says: • Website
    @Rurik

    Here’s what’s going on:
     
    Blah, blah, blah “Washington”

    blah, blah, blah “Tillerson”

    what a crock of horse manure

    I knew when I started to read this pathetic “analysis” that the coward writing the article would carefully tip toe around the purple gorilla in the room (the Fiend) staring the “Old World Order” down.

    and he has the nads to pen the words “Here’s what’s going on:”

    I’m just a guy who’s been half paying attention, rather than a professional analyst, but at least I’m not a liar by omission.

    What’s really going on is that the Zio-deepstate is putting enough pressure on the Trump administration in an obvious attempt to keep Syria destabilized so that the so-called ‘Shia crescent’ is thwarted as much as possible. They want a Kurdish state to act as a bulwark against Iran/Hezbollah. They want to keep Syria destabilized so that they can eventually steal the Golan Heights from Syria.

    And no, when I say “they”, I don’t mean Tillerson and Trump. (dumbass ; )

    I mean the Lukidniks who’re increasingly running Trump's foreign policy. You know dumbass, the Zionist neocons that have been waging wars in the Middle East on Israel’s behalf, especially since they perpetrated 9/11 to augment that goal.

    I know you’ve never heard of Zionism or neocons, have never heard of the Golan Heights or probably not even the word “Jew” in your lifetime, but that is the hard and harsh realities that people read thoughtful analysis to understand. Not dissembling and lies and obfuscation, which seems to be your specialty.

    What people really want to know is how wide is the rift between the ZUS and Ankara. Erdogan was happy to see Syria come apart at the seams when he figured he’d be able to steal her northern oil fields, but not so happy about it when it looks like a nascent Kurdish state on his border.

    Is Erdogan slipping into Putin’s orbit. Did the assassination/coup attempt have anything to do with that?

    Russia wants the sovereign borders of Syria recognized, (part of that Old World Order you were on about), but this is nothing less than a Holocaust redux to Bibi and his cabal of Jewish supremacists in the Knesset / diaspora. (you know, like the neocons; people you’re not even aware of ; )

    Acting like Tillerson is his own man, (or even Trump for that matter), when we all know they’re being forced to participate in the Middle East bloodbath by Jewish neocons and Zionist, Jewish supremacists, is dishonestly most foul. And insulting to those who come here to read actual analysis to get a better understanding of the forces shaping our world.

    Rurik, seems to me the x of the question from the author is simply IF and to what an extent this (this border support or state with Kurds) is a big blunder or not.
    It is not about distinguishing who is/how much is behind the curtains controlling the puppet strings.

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  61. Rurik says:

    It is not about distinguishing who is/how much is behind the curtains controlling the puppet strings.

    if you want to understand what is going on, and why, and how it’s likely to play out, then it would be salient to know who is behind it (the curtain)

    otherwise it’s all obfuscation and distraction

    pretending like Tillerson is the man making the decisions is beyond idiotic. It is in fact playing into the schemes of the Fiend itself.

    when the ‘dueling puppets’ tell us we all must make war on Iraq, because of Saddam’s WMD

    only an asshole would pretend that those prime ministers are speaking their own minds, based on intelligent and verified information..

    rather than parroting the scrip handed to them by their ((master))

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  62. @Avery
    {Kurds are a festering presence in Turkey ...}

    You got it backwards: Turks are the festering presence in Asia Minor.
    Kurds are indigenous to the general region (...further East though, nearer to Iran).
    Kurds have been around these parts for 1,000s of years.

    Turks are the invaders, originally from East and Central Asia.
    Nomad, warlike tribes that have become a menace to the entire region.
    A pestilence that has killed, murdered, looted, destroyed, massacred,......everything in its path.

    By your definition everybody is a festering presence. Who did not invade from somewhere?

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    • Replies: @Avery
    { Who did not invade from somewhere?}

    Lots of peoples.

    You are confusing migrating to an empty space vs invading a populated place, deliberately wiping out its indigenous inhabitants that were there before you, and then taking their land, stealing their wealth, their creations, etc.

    When nomad Turks invaded Asia Minor, there were already highly developed, sedentary, indigenous civilizations there: look it up.

    Armenian presence in the Armenian Highlands has been reliably traced back to about 5,000 years as of now (...via writings on rocks, and such). Sure, proto-Armenian groupings migrated to the Armenian Highlands from somewhere. Later these grouping coalesced and became what is now know as 'Armenians'. But you make the mistake of thinking the world then was as it is today. The world was mostly empty. Even about 2,000 years ago, world population was ~400 million (upper estimate).

    Even today, some places are densely populated, and some are mostly empty.
    If you drive across US, outside of cities, towns and such - it's miles, and miles, and miles of empty space.

    When people migrate to an empty place and settle, then they are not a festering presence.
    When outsiders - e.g. Turks - invade to an already populated place, exterminate the peoples already there, and continue invading and threatening the neighbors - then they are a festering presence.

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  63. Avery says:
    @plonialmoni
    By your definition everybody is a festering presence. Who did not invade from somewhere?

    { Who did not invade from somewhere?}

    Lots of peoples.

    You are confusing migrating to an empty space vs invading a populated place, deliberately wiping out its indigenous inhabitants that were there before you, and then taking their land, stealing their wealth, their creations, etc.

    When nomad Turks invaded Asia Minor, there were already highly developed, sedentary, indigenous civilizations there: look it up.

    Armenian presence in the Armenian Highlands has been reliably traced back to about 5,000 years as of now (…via writings on rocks, and such). Sure, proto-Armenian groupings migrated to the Armenian Highlands from somewhere. Later these grouping coalesced and became what is now know as ‘Armenians’. But you make the mistake of thinking the world then was as it is today. The world was mostly empty. Even about 2,000 years ago, world population was ~400 million (upper estimate).

    Even today, some places are densely populated, and some are mostly empty.
    If you drive across US, outside of cities, towns and such – it’s miles, and miles, and miles of empty space.

    When people migrate to an empty place and settle, then they are not a festering presence.
    When outsiders – e.g. Turks – invade to an already populated place, exterminate the peoples already there, and continue invading and threatening the neighbors – then they are a festering presence.

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  64. Sowhat says:

    Iraq, Iran, Libia, Ukraine, Syria, Libia, Qwait, UAE,Bahrain, Afghanistan. What’s the connection? JK

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