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The Financial Invasion of Greece
IMF's concern about Greek debt is bogus, this is full scale financial war, forcing Greece give up ports, pensions, properties and much more
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SHARMINI PERIES, TRNN: It’s the Real News Network, I’m Sharmini Peries coming to you from Baltimore.

Greece’s economic crisis has perhaps been eclipsed by Europe’s refugee crisis, terrorist attacks, and by the forthcoming Brexit referendum. But it has not gone away. Greece’s Syriza coalition faced violence on the streets and a 3 day general strike last week that had brought much of the country to a halt. In spite of the protests the government of Alexis Tsipras pushed through legislation to amend the country’s tax and pension system with the backing of 153 MPs, a measure required by the lenders in order to continue the debt negotiations. Addressing the 300 seat house, Prime Minister Alex Tsipras said we are determined to make Greece stand on its 2 feet at any cost.

To discuss these developments, I’m joined by Michael Hudson. He’s joining us from New York. Michael is a distinguished Research Professor of Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. His latest book is Killing the Host: How Financial Parasites and Debt Bondage Destroyed the Global Economy. Michael, many thanks for joining us today.

MICHAEL HUDSON: It’s good to be back.

PERIES: Michael the International Monetary Fund is pushing for comprehensive measures to tackle Greece’s debt burden. They want the lenders to get creative in terms of debt cancellation and the measure that they’re proposing seems to be fairly progressive compared to what the lenders are talking about. Tell us more about the IMF’s proposal and how the lenders are reacting to it.

HUDSON: The IMF says it will not reduce Greece’s debt by a single penny. It will keep the debt in place. The problem is the way that the European central banks keep their balance sheets, if it breaks down Greece’s debt owed to the IMF then the countries Germany, France, and other countries whose banks are bailed out will have to take a loss and they refuse to lose a single penny. So the IMF has not made a creative proposal. It has repeated what it said a year ago without changing a single word. It says okay, we’re going to keep every penny of debt in place but we’re going to give you a fudging number. We’re only going to charge you 1.5% interest and you won’t have to pay the debt for 25 years. So you get a debt mark [ ] you won’t have to pay interests for 25 years and we’ll charge you only a little bit of interest.

There’s only one kicker. You’re going to have to cancel your pensions, write them down, impose austerity, privatize your government, and you’re going to have to shrink your economy so that it will shrink by about 1, 2, 3% a year so that the 1.5% interest that we’re charging as little as it is, is going to absorb all the income growth you have. Every penny of growth of have from the next 25 years you’ll have to end up paying the German banks. Now we know you can’t do it. We know that when you cancel the pensions you’re going to shrink. We know your labor’s on strike. We know they’re going to immigrate.

But there’s a way out. You can sell your ports, your land, your public utilities, your railroads, your airports, anything you have you can sell to the Germans and at the end of this time you won’t have a single thing and all we ask is that all you Greeks get out of our country, now that we own you. That’s what the IMF is saying. It’s not creative, it’s absolutely brutal. That’s why the Greeks are out on strike.

PERIES: Now why are the lenders then acting the way they are?

HUDSON: Because they’re using finance as the new means of war. There is a war going on in Europe but it’s not a military war anymore. They’re now using finance instead of war and they’re using finance to say, we can grab your country. We can put you out of work. We can control you and we don’t have to kill you, we can just make you immigrate by taking away your pensions and taking all your money. There’s a land grab just as if it were an invasion to grab Greece’s ports, to grab Greece’s railroads, and to grab everything else. This is war.

PERIES: Now the international press has been reporting on Monday’s meeting with the finance ministers as if it was a success and Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras and the finance minister came out of it with smiles, why?

HUDSON: Because they sold out. Because you’re supposed to smile before a camera, that’s the polite thing to do. You’re supposed to smile as if you’ve somehow defended your constituency. Mr. Obama always smiles whenever he does another giveaway to Wall Street. But the smile does not reflect anything that’s good for the great people and the great people obviously know this as you can see by their political reaction.

PERIES: And these attack reforms and pension reforms that now they have to swallow, the people of Greece. What does it really mean for the people?

ORDER IT NOW

HUDSON: It means, the opposite of what reforms used to mean. For the last 100 years the whole reform movement meant you give more authority to government. You give more emphasis on economic growth. Reform used to mean making the economy fair. But in today’s world we’re in a Orwellian doublethink world where we reform means wiping out the reforms that Greece did after WWII. Wiping out the pension reforms, wiping out the tax reforms, and wiping out the tax reforms apparently. It’s a rollback to what you could call neofeudalism. It’s the opposite of the reform movement. So the newspapers use the word reform but it’s exactly the opposite.

PERIES: Alright then the left wing and the Syriza party. What are they saying in light of what we just heard?

HUDSON: Well they’re appalled and as you know Yanis Varoufakis, who you’ve had on your show resigned rather than become the undertaker imposing austerity on Greece. They’re simply appalled and think nothing could be worse and that they realized there is a war going on and they’d hoped that they’d be supported by other left wing movements and France and Spain and Portugal. But there’s a bitter class war of debtors against creditors or creditors against debtors going on in Europe and all they can do right now is expose the hypocrisy of the IMF. If you’re talking about Greece, let’s juxtapose the IMF supporting a really insolvent economy of [ ] in the Ukraine.

The IMF is preparing to bail out Ukraine, to say you don’t have to pay your debts that you owe to Russia or any governments that the U.S. doesn’t like. You have to sell off your land to George [Sherouse] and the people who the U.S. government does like. Look at the duel standard that the IMF is imposing on Greece compared to what it’s doing for the Ukrainian government. You see that the IMF has become a tool of the New Cold War and the Syriza people and the Greeks can do is point out how unfair this is and to try to let the world know that what is happening is a movement way to the right wing of the political spectrum and that finance is war.

PERIES: Finally, Michael, what choice does the Greek government have? What can they do?

HUDSON: Mr. Tsipras says they have no choice. He says the choice is only to surrender and in fact the argument now is not between Greece and the IMF. Not between Greece and Germany or Europe. The arguments that keep going on are solely between the IMF and Germany as to whether the IMF is going to break its traditional rules and make a loan in violation of all of its principles. Under its articles of agreement, the IMF is not allowed to make a loan to a government that cannot afford to repay the loan. All of the staff of the IMF have unanimously found that Greece cannot pay the loan because the terms of IMF loans, the conditionalities, shrink the economy and make it impossible to pay.

So the IMF says that we’re going to break the rules of that and we’re going to lend, essentially because the U.S. tells us to do that and Greece is going to have to pay so we can demonstrate that if Spain tries to stand up and pay its pensions to people, if France pays its labor, if Italy pays its labor, we’re going to smash their economies, we’re going to smash their labor unions, and we’re going to smash their labor just as we do to Greece. Greece is a demonstration very much like when the Nazis bombed Spain, in the Picasso drew the great drawing for. This is the IMF’s version of the Nazi bombing of Spain to say, this is what’s going to happen to labor throughout Europe if you don’t surrender.

PERIES: Alright Michael as always, such a pleasure to have you on and we’ll be back on the Greece trails so I hope you join us again.

HUDSON: Thank you so much Sharmini.

PERIES: And thank you for joining us on the Real New Network.

(Republished from The Real News Network by permission of author or representative)
 
• Category: Economics, Foreign Policy • Tags: Greece, IMF 
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  1. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    If you know Greeks, you would know what I’m talking about. I don’t hate Greeks. In many ways, I love them. But I wouldn’t trust them with two cents.

    When it comes to integrity, just remember…. “Eek, it’s a Greek.”

    Greeks are grooks, or Greek Crooks.

    Modern Greeks are like Gypsies with a great history(that has all been forgotten).

    I think all the slave races that the Greeks took in eventually turned the Greek bloodline into one of Grookery.

    Read More
    • Replies: @artichoke
    Tsipras certainly qualifies as lacking integrity.

    Didn't Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government that, right after, immediately went the creditors' way, and they got a bunch options that went way in the money? I seem to recall that's how Greece got reduced to a financial beggar.
    , @anon

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.
     
    The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.

    They'll be doing it to every country in the EU, one after the other, not just the Greeks.

    The media is owned by the banking mafia and they always lie - in this case getting everyone in northern Europe blaming the Greeks and everyone in the south blaming the Germans.
    , @Marcus
    And you'd be wrong. Slaves were mostly other Greeks.
    , @woodNfish
    Back in the early 70's I used to know a turbine engineer who worked for GE. He said GE would no longer service Greek flagged ships unless they paid for the work up front because too many of them would get new turbines installed and then sail out of port and GE would be left holding the bag.

    Of course since that time GE seems to have learned a lot from the Greeks about stealing which is why the company is nothing more than a crony capitalist leach today.

    Don't buy GE products.

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  2. artichoke says:

    Tsipras is a traitor. (I am not Greek, this is just what I observe from outside.) He has to say no and I guess dare Germany, the Troika (which he failed to say no to), whatever to invade. That would be reversible in court or in various ways. But if they agree to give away assets and sign a contract, they’re gone.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.

    But then, Greeks would have to take care of themselves... but Greeks don't want to. Greeks are moochers and want to keep mooching.

    Greeks lack character. Maybe Greeks should give up nationhood and revert to city-states. They might do things better that way.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  3. artichoke says:
    @Priss Factor
    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    If you know Greeks, you would know what I'm talking about. I don't hate Greeks. In many ways, I love them. But I wouldn't trust them with two cents.

    When it comes to integrity, just remember.... "Eek, it's a Greek."

    Greeks are grooks, or Greek Crooks.

    Modern Greeks are like Gypsies with a great history(that has all been forgotten).

    I think all the slave races that the Greeks took in eventually turned the Greek bloodline into one of Grookery.

    Tsipras certainly qualifies as lacking integrity.

    Didn’t Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government that, right after, immediately went the creditors’ way, and they got a bunch options that went way in the money? I seem to recall that’s how Greece got reduced to a financial beggar.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Didn’t Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government
     
    Yes and the politicians who arranged it went to work for Goldman Sachs afterwards (and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization).
    , @Delmas
    In Marc Roch's book Goldman Sachs la banque qui dirige le monde, he explains how an executive vice president from Goldman working on a contract for the EU, helped occult Greece's public accounting so that they could qualify for the Euro zone. Addie Lioubiadis sponsored Greece's entry into the Euro zone. This was during Papendreou's government. Papendreou was not born in Greece. He was a Greek American. We don't hear a lot about him these days.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  4. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:
    @artichoke
    Tsipras is a traitor. (I am not Greek, this is just what I observe from outside.) He has to say no and I guess dare Germany, the Troika (which he failed to say no to), whatever to invade. That would be reversible in court or in various ways. But if they agree to give away assets and sign a contract, they're gone.

    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.

    But then, Greeks would have to take care of themselves… but Greeks don’t want to. Greeks are moochers and want to keep mooching.

    Greeks lack character. Maybe Greeks should give up nationhood and revert to city-states. They might do things better that way.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.
     
    Yes they should but their media (owned by the banking mafia) tell them that would be even worse.
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  5. Dave Pinsen says: • Website

    Greece shouldn’t have been included in the Eurozone to begin with, because its productivity is too low for it to be competitive with such a strong currency. It was included for emotional/historical reasons, not logical ones.

    But there’s lots of tax avoidance and corruption in Greece, which increases its debt and has little to do with the Eurozone.

    The logical solution would be for Greece to leave the Eurozone, ditch the euro, and default on its debt. Greeks’ bank accounts in Greece would take a hit when they get converted to nominal amounts of drachmas, but most Greeks will have long anticipated this and have stashed some euros in foreign accounts. And the weaker currency would lead to a boom in tourism and exports.

    The EU opposes this because they’re worried if Greece leaves there will be a domino effect.

    Read More
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  6. Greg Bacon says: • Website

    The bankster gangsters are fine-tuning their NWO schemes in Greece and the ME. Guess who’s next?

    Read More
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  7. Wally says: • Website

    Greece should sell off it’s too many ‘public’ assets. A Marxist economy is their problem.

    Obviously the Greeks were / are too lazy to help themselves. They should be happy someone was sucker enough to help them all these years. So now these infantile losers don’t want to pay their debts. Yet they did take the money.

    Marxist, economic illiterate Hudson:

    For the last 100 years the whole reform movement meant you give more authority to government.

    And how obviously stupid that was. Now they must pay the piper.

    I say give them a dose of reality, let them go Venezuela. They deserve no better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    The banking mafia loan-sharked them with the aid of corrupt traitors.

    They should
    - declare the debt odious
    - re nationalize everything that has been looted so far
    - put the politicians/journalists/bankers who have colluded in this on trial for treason.

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  8. Greeks have no one to blame for their predicament but themselves. Period. Full stop.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Olorin
    I'm no fan of global banksterism as it exists specifically to prey on genetically predisposed-to-fail populations. (Biologically speaking, that may be unavoidable.)

    On the other hand, the idea that genetically predisposed-to-fail populations can be expected to sustain modern nations or societies is pretty well discredited by now. This is worth considering, for the uninitiated or those who have been hostile to "HBD":

    https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/the-iq-breaking-point-how-civilized-society-is-maintained-or-lost/

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

    So the question becomes what to do with them if incapable of something more complex...but wanting all the fruits of that merely for existing. Like teenagers who want to be free of Dad's authority, but still want him picking up the credit card bills at the end of the month, no questions asked.

    National-scale pension funds are modern instruments of finance. A population whose behaviors are disposed to laziness, corruption, and nepotism are going to find it difficult or impossible to use or maintain such instruments. For starters, everybody's going to want to retire at 50 to a lifetime of gimme gimme and ouzo on the beach.

    This isn't a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It's a population-scale genetics matter. I'm of the view that it's beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems. A naivete that Brussels/EU seems to share.

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  9. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    If you know Greeks, you would know what I'm talking about. I don't hate Greeks. In many ways, I love them. But I wouldn't trust them with two cents.

    When it comes to integrity, just remember.... "Eek, it's a Greek."

    Greeks are grooks, or Greek Crooks.

    Modern Greeks are like Gypsies with a great history(that has all been forgotten).

    I think all the slave races that the Greeks took in eventually turned the Greek bloodline into one of Grookery.

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.

    They’ll be doing it to every country in the EU, one after the other, not just the Greeks.

    The media is owned by the banking mafia and they always lie – in this case getting everyone in northern Europe blaming the Greeks and everyone in the south blaming the Germans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    You just don't know the Grooks at the ground level. They are thieving, back-stabbing, lecherous, treacherous lowlife vermin.

    But they are fun people and I like them.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    Your comment seems to rely for its validity on the truth of your assertion that "the media is owned by the banking mafia" but you don't say which media outlets in which countries. Obviously Rupert Murdoch's media are not owned by a "media mafia" just for one major example. The trust which owns The Guardian, and also the New York Times and the Washington Post are other obvious counter examples. So what can you add to make sense of your case?
    , @Jacques Sheete
    This is the formula in a nutshell, and it's coming soon to a country near every one of us no doubt.

    "The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well."

    And once again, Hudson is correct; it is, has been and will continue to be financial warfare. The crooks can and no doubt intend to control whole countries.
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  10. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @artichoke
    Tsipras certainly qualifies as lacking integrity.

    Didn't Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government that, right after, immediately went the creditors' way, and they got a bunch options that went way in the money? I seem to recall that's how Greece got reduced to a financial beggar.

    Didn’t Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government

    Yes and the politicians who arranged it went to work for Goldman Sachs afterwards (and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization).

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "...and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization."

    Gangsterism by the finest; everything in the name of neo-Feudal "purity."

    "When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators. When ELAS-EAM held a huge demonstration in Athens, police opened fire and killed 28 people. The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members, who once again took up arms as a resistance movement. In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. The U.S. role in supporting an incompetent fascist government in Greece was enshrined in the "Truman Doctrine," seen by many historians as the beginning of the Cold War."
    http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists
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  11. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.

    But then, Greeks would have to take care of themselves... but Greeks don't want to. Greeks are moochers and want to keep mooching.

    Greeks lack character. Maybe Greeks should give up nationhood and revert to city-states. They might do things better that way.

    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.

    Yes they should but their media (owned by the banking mafia) tell them that would be even worse.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I've suspected ever since the Greeks buckled under to the fiscal tightening required of them to get the money which in turn was about protecting the French and German banks that Greek leaders accepted that major reforms were needed and could only be achieved under outside pressure. Of course Greece should drop the Euro but it arguably should use the opportunity to reverse the profligacy of its years of self-indulgence after it joined the Eurozone, and then choose a currency value that can be maintained - and competitive.
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  12. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    Greece should sell off it's too many 'public' assets. A Marxist economy is their problem.

    Obviously the Greeks were / are too lazy to help themselves. They should be happy someone was sucker enough to help them all these years. So now these infantile losers don't want to pay their debts. Yet they did take the money.

    Marxist, economic illiterate Hudson:


    For the last 100 years the whole reform movement meant you give more authority to government.
     
    And how obviously stupid that was. Now they must pay the piper.

    I say give them a dose of reality, let them go Venezuela. They deserve no better.

    The banking mafia loan-sharked them with the aid of corrupt traitors.

    They should
    - declare the debt odious
    - re nationalize everything that has been looted so far
    - put the politicians/journalists/bankers who have colluded in this on trial for treason.

    Read More
    • Replies: @fltactical
    anon...Spoken like a true Socialist. But if they declare their debt void, who will continue to fund the upside down pension system. Declaring it void will put them back at zero Euros owed, but doesn't fix the fact that they spend in pensions far more than they take in taxes. Problem still there.
    , @Wally
    The terms of the deals were not secret.
    The average Greeks were onboard all the way, they took the money without hesitation. After all, where did the lazy Greeks think the money was coming from?

    Gee, who doesn't want to retire at 50?

    The lazy Greeks do so little work anyway that the word 'retirement' is almost irrelevant.

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  13. When a business is in trouble it may declare bankruptcy. Greece should do the same.

    Read More
    • Replies: @another fred
    Traditional bankruptcy (Chapter 13 in the US) means liquidation of assets. A chapter 11 bankruptcy is only available if you can work out some way to "reorganize" and pay off debts.

    Neither is very pleasant, you don't just get to raise your finger and walk away. Both bear similarities to what is being offered to Greece.

    Raising your finger and walking away is called default, which may eventually be Greece's best option.

    Essentially the entire world owes more than it can pay. Helicopter money awaits in the future.

    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  14. Hudson himself gives an Orwell like reply to a serious financial problem. Why talk about rolling back post-WWII reforms rather than addressing the real problem? Because Hudson refuses to blame the real culprit… the socialist agenda initiated after WWII and the entitlement of the Greek people. Get everything for nothing. That is the problem here. If the German people are willing to buy the assets in exchange for continued pension payments, then it is up to the Greek people to decide if they are going to get off their butts and work for a more productive nation, or sell it out for a final generation of slothful living. If you don’t want the buy out, just reform your pensions and get back to work!

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Well said!

    Except Greeks never really worked in the first place.
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  15. @anon
    The banking mafia loan-sharked them with the aid of corrupt traitors.

    They should
    - declare the debt odious
    - re nationalize everything that has been looted so far
    - put the politicians/journalists/bankers who have colluded in this on trial for treason.

    anon…Spoken like a true Socialist. But if they declare their debt void, who will continue to fund the upside down pension system. Declaring it void will put them back at zero Euros owed, but doesn’t fix the fact that they spend in pensions far more than they take in taxes. Problem still there.

    Read More
    • Replies: @alexander
    Its interesting if you look at the facts and compare the Greek debt fiasco to our current 20 trillion dollar debt fiasco.

    There are about 11 million Greeks and the debt they have accumulated (by sloth, fraud, uber- pensions or what have you ) is estimated at 360 billion.

    If you do the math,

    that amounts to about $33,000 per Greek .


    Our national debt is 20 trillion.

    There are about 320 million Americans.


    That amounts to about $56,000 per American.

    The debt the Greek people owe is slightly more than half what we owe ourselves ,today, so why all the fuss about Greek debt ?

    and if they are all just lazy good-for-nothings, what does it say about "us" ?

    Rather we should focus on remedies for our own massive debt problem, and how it was created.

    As a matter of fact, the first order of business of the next POTUS should be to claw back as much of the stolen trillions we were conned out of, through "war fraud" , "banking fraud" and "terror fraud".

    Then the US can restore a modicum of solvency to its balance sheet, and severely delimit the power of those who would seek to defraud us out of our dough, in the future.

    What do you think?
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  16. Marcus says:
    @Priss Factor
    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    If you know Greeks, you would know what I'm talking about. I don't hate Greeks. In many ways, I love them. But I wouldn't trust them with two cents.

    When it comes to integrity, just remember.... "Eek, it's a Greek."

    Greeks are grooks, or Greek Crooks.

    Modern Greeks are like Gypsies with a great history(that has all been forgotten).

    I think all the slave races that the Greeks took in eventually turned the Greek bloodline into one of Grookery.

    And you’d be wrong. Slaves were mostly other Greeks.

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  17. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:
    @anon

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.
     
    The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.

    They'll be doing it to every country in the EU, one after the other, not just the Greeks.

    The media is owned by the banking mafia and they always lie - in this case getting everyone in northern Europe blaming the Greeks and everyone in the south blaming the Germans.

    You just don’t know the Grooks at the ground level. They are thieving, back-stabbing, lecherous, treacherous lowlife vermin.

    But they are fun people and I like them.

    Read More
    • Replies: @kiismerh
    Just like the Jews. They are likeable vermins too.
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  18. alexander says:
    @fltactical
    anon...Spoken like a true Socialist. But if they declare their debt void, who will continue to fund the upside down pension system. Declaring it void will put them back at zero Euros owed, but doesn't fix the fact that they spend in pensions far more than they take in taxes. Problem still there.

    Its interesting if you look at the facts and compare the Greek debt fiasco to our current 20 trillion dollar debt fiasco.

    There are about 11 million Greeks and the debt they have accumulated (by sloth, fraud, uber- pensions or what have you ) is estimated at 360 billion.

    If you do the math,

    that amounts to about $33,000 per Greek .

    Our national debt is 20 trillion.

    There are about 320 million Americans.

    That amounts to about $56,000 per American.

    The debt the Greek people owe is slightly more than half what we owe ourselves ,today, so why all the fuss about Greek debt ?

    and if they are all just lazy good-for-nothings, what does it say about “us” ?

    Rather we should focus on remedies for our own massive debt problem, and how it was created.

    As a matter of fact, the first order of business of the next POTUS should be to claw back as much of the stolen trillions we were conned out of, through “war fraud” , “banking fraud” and “terror fraud”.

    Then the US can restore a modicum of solvency to its balance sheet, and severely delimit the power of those who would seek to defraud us out of our dough, in the future.

    What do you think?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    Your argument buys into the false 'two wrongs make a right'.

    However, the Greeks are given a choice, the Americans are not.

    Now factor in the unwanted US military spending per year vs. the Greek military spending per year, per capita.

    Now factor in the unwanted US spending per year, per capita for: TSA, NSA, CIA, HLS, racist Israel; on & on it goes, all without the public's approval. The Greeks have no such encumbrances.

    Their money goes to such things as retirement at 5o, even though they never really worked to begin with.
    , @Drapetomaniac
    I agree.

    If Greece possessed a petrodrachma/reserve currency they wouldn't be facing bankruptcy.
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  19. Wally says: • Website
    @anon
    The banking mafia loan-sharked them with the aid of corrupt traitors.

    They should
    - declare the debt odious
    - re nationalize everything that has been looted so far
    - put the politicians/journalists/bankers who have colluded in this on trial for treason.

    The terms of the deals were not secret.
    The average Greeks were onboard all the way, they took the money without hesitation. After all, where did the lazy Greeks think the money was coming from?

    Gee, who doesn’t want to retire at 50?

    The lazy Greeks do so little work anyway that the word ‘retirement’ is almost irrelevant.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    The terms of the deals were not secret.
     
    Deals?

    The fiddled economic stats that got Greece into the Euro which changed their credit rating which allowed the debt to increase beyond a level that could be repaid.

    Odious debt.

    Loan sharking.

    Treason.


    And as mentioned it's not just Greece; what they're doing to Greece is a trial run for the looting of all western nations - including the USA - by the banking mafia.
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  20. Wally says: • Website
    @alexander
    Its interesting if you look at the facts and compare the Greek debt fiasco to our current 20 trillion dollar debt fiasco.

    There are about 11 million Greeks and the debt they have accumulated (by sloth, fraud, uber- pensions or what have you ) is estimated at 360 billion.

    If you do the math,

    that amounts to about $33,000 per Greek .


    Our national debt is 20 trillion.

    There are about 320 million Americans.


    That amounts to about $56,000 per American.

    The debt the Greek people owe is slightly more than half what we owe ourselves ,today, so why all the fuss about Greek debt ?

    and if they are all just lazy good-for-nothings, what does it say about "us" ?

    Rather we should focus on remedies for our own massive debt problem, and how it was created.

    As a matter of fact, the first order of business of the next POTUS should be to claw back as much of the stolen trillions we were conned out of, through "war fraud" , "banking fraud" and "terror fraud".

    Then the US can restore a modicum of solvency to its balance sheet, and severely delimit the power of those who would seek to defraud us out of our dough, in the future.

    What do you think?

    Your argument buys into the false ‘two wrongs make a right’.

    However, the Greeks are given a choice, the Americans are not.

    Now factor in the unwanted US military spending per year vs. the Greek military spending per year, per capita.

    Now factor in the unwanted US spending per year, per capita for: TSA, NSA, CIA, HLS, racist Israel; on & on it goes, all without the public’s approval. The Greeks have no such encumbrances.

    Their money goes to such things as retirement at 5o, even though they never really worked to begin with.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Drapetomaniac
    "Your argument buys into the false ‘two wrongs make a right’."

    The world operates on 'two wrongs make a right' and seldom is 'right' delivered. It starts out with 'might makes right' which is wrong and it's all downhill after that.

    So the question in alexander's case is do these two wrongs make a just solution. Clawing back as much money as possible stolen by 'might makes right' is a just solution and for that reason alone, it will never see the light of day.
    , @alexander
    You may be right, Wally.

    But Its hard for me to tell how much Greece was a victim of the massive global subprime banking fraud debacle, too.

    There seems to be a lot of obfuscation around that issue.

    It seems their debt spiked pretty high after the subprime fiasco , then just compounded exponentially from there.

    I haven't looked at the charts,recently, but their debt seemed to soar from 196 billion to 360 billion in , like, three years.

    Certainly every sovereign state that bought into the mortgage debt swindle (and its phony AAA rating), took it on the chin.

    Nobody is allowed to discuss whether Greece bought into the subprime fraud, and how much it lost, as a result .

    Look at Iceland, weren't they the first to go belly up ?
    , @alexander
    Actually two wrongs always make a wrong.


    Which is my point.

    You somehow manage to be absolutely certain that the Greek people have total control over what their elected government chooses to do, and how much debt it creates....and that Americans have NO control over what their elected officials do, and how much debt they create....

    ....and your certainty about this is based on what ....again ?
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  21. Wally says: • Website
    @fltactical
    Hudson himself gives an Orwell like reply to a serious financial problem. Why talk about rolling back post-WWII reforms rather than addressing the real problem? Because Hudson refuses to blame the real culprit... the socialist agenda initiated after WWII and the entitlement of the Greek people. Get everything for nothing. That is the problem here. If the German people are willing to buy the assets in exchange for continued pension payments, then it is up to the Greek people to decide if they are going to get off their butts and work for a more productive nation, or sell it out for a final generation of slothful living. If you don't want the buy out, just reform your pensions and get back to work!

    Well said!

    Except Greeks never really worked in the first place.

    Read More
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  22. Rehmat says:

    Greeks have no sense of judgment to sort out who are their friends or enemies. For example, they’re indirectly ruled by Ottoman Muslim Turks for over 350 years. The hated them so much that they destroyed every single mosque in the country after their “liberation” from Turkey.

    Then they began their love affair with the so-called “civilized West” by applying latter’s all “Jewish values” – but lost their national dignity, economy and liberty to practice their version of Christianity.

    Last year, Greek parliament passed a bill (193-56) legalizing civil partnership for gay couples, two years after the country was condemned by a European court for discrimination. However, gay couples wouldn’t be allowed to adopt Greek children. But, like Israeli Jews they can have surrogate babies.

    Fundamentalist Bishops in Greece’s powerful anti-Muslim Orthodox Church, led by Bishop Seraphim of Piraeus, have vehemently opposed the law, arguing it undermine the institution of family.

    Bishop Seraphim has blamed the Zionist Monster for the legislation. He said the cohabitation bill is result of the “constant war against the faith” being waged by “the international Zionist Monster”, which he claimed control the Greek government – the most anti-Muslim European state.

    Bishop Seraphim, in the past, had been accused of denying Zionists’ narrative of Holocaust and believing in the authenticity of The Protocols of Zion.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/12/23/top-bishop-zionist-monster-controls-greece/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sherman
    Hey Homer

    Does Canadian law allow you to cohabitate with your goat?

    Sherm
    , @Anonymous
    https://twitter.com/chrismassie/status/734832659269046274
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  23. Boy, the IMF/banker trolls out in force. If you were listen to them, you would get the idea that cunning and shifty old Greece had managed to to pull one on banks that must have been run by country bumpkins.

    Let’s get this straight right now, historically hardily anyone has ever managed to put one over on these banking leeches.

    Before even making the first of these loans these banks sent very bright, extremely well paid appraisers to carefully ascertain to the penny exactly what the potential assets of Greece were to if default occurred. These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway. In fact the dubious financial structure of of Greece made the banks even more desirous of making these loans because they knew that default would be inevitable.

    Greece is in debt for one reason. Banks, being the high level, slightly more respectable loan sharks they are, absolutely love to make to make loans to asset rich governments that they know can’t repay them. These dubious loans are made specifically with the intention of eventually seizing the assets of those dumb enough to accept them. If you don’t believe this, read John Perkins’ classic book about how this is done.

    http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1464017448&sr=8-2&keywords=economic+hit+man

    These banks have been screwing over third world countries for decades using these types of loans. We are only hearing about this process now because it is occurring to Greece, a western country. Resistance is usually futile. Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed “color revolutions” which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina.

    It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks. At the same time, something else invariably happens, taxpayers of western countries are asked to bail out these dubious loans to prevent potential financial panics threatened by these banks. In the rare case that a country is able to recover financially, the previously grossly under appraised assets that were seized by the banks are then sold back to the government at grossly over appraised prices.

    Ask any Silicon Valley venture capitalist why the process of making often dubious loans can be so immensely profitable. For every successful Google or Facebook there are probably twenty companies which have had their assets stripped after succumbing to the terms of such loans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    "Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed “color revolutions” which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina. It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks."

    Thank you. Very clear explanation for the financial wars.
    Curious how far the Greecophobes could go while defending the "beautiful minds" of the IMF and Empire of Federal Reserve (WallStreet/City).
    http://themillenniumreport.com/2016/04/greek-default-2016-a-bankruptcy-which-cannot-be-avoided/
    http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/
    , @anon
    Exactly.

    These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway.
     
    They *knew* beforehand that the loans they were making could never be repaid - not would not but could not possibly - and that is precisely why they made the loans.

    Loan sharking - no intention of ever being repaid - all designed to strip the *assets* after the loans blow up.
    , @Jacques Sheete
    Excellent comment. Spot on. Actually though, the banksters have been screwing over everyone, not only third world countries.
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  24. @Positive Dennis
    When a business is in trouble it may declare bankruptcy. Greece should do the same.

    Traditional bankruptcy (Chapter 13 in the US) means liquidation of assets. A chapter 11 bankruptcy is only available if you can work out some way to “reorganize” and pay off debts.

    Neither is very pleasant, you don’t just get to raise your finger and walk away. Both bear similarities to what is being offered to Greece.

    Raising your finger and walking away is called default, which may eventually be Greece’s best option.

    Essentially the entire world owes more than it can pay. Helicopter money awaits in the future.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Ivy
    US Chapter 13 is for individuals to work out their debts in a wage-earner plan.
    Companies or individuals can go Chapter 7, or be forced into that by creditors, to liquidate.
    Chapter 11 is generally for companies to reorganize their debts.
    There is a type of US option for the Greeks to use via Chapter 15 for international BK coordination.

    When the Greeks entered the EU, and hid or misstated their assets and liabilities, they doubled down on keeping their ouzo flowing to pensioners. They gave away their sovereignty and didn't even get a mess of pottage. They did, however, spend a fortune on their Olympics, and barely got projects done in time. That was one tip-off.

    Now awaiting Brazil's turn.

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  25. annamaria says:
    @anon

    Didn’t Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government
     
    Yes and the politicians who arranged it went to work for Goldman Sachs afterwards (and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization).

    “…and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization.”

    Gangsterism by the finest; everything in the name of neo-Feudal “purity.”

    “When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators. When ELAS-EAM held a huge demonstration in Athens, police opened fire and killed 28 people. The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members, who once again took up arms as a resistance movement. In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. The U.S. role in supporting an incompetent fascist government in Greece was enshrined in the “Truman Doctrine,” seen by many historians as the beginning of the Cold War.”

    http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists

    Read More
    • Replies: @RadicalCenter
    Is the implication that Germans would NOT have run Greece better than the Greeks themselves have run it since then?
    , @Bill B.
    Erm ... where on earth did the British get the idea that communist movements, especially ones beholden to Moscow, would not be entirely benign and beneficial? A mystery.
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  26. annamaria says:
    @silly billy
    Boy, the IMF/banker trolls out in force. If you were listen to them, you would get the idea that cunning and shifty old Greece had managed to to pull one on banks that must have been run by country bumpkins.

    Let's get this straight right now, historically hardily anyone has ever managed to put one over on these banking leeches.

    Before even making the first of these loans these banks sent very bright, extremely well paid appraisers to carefully ascertain to the penny exactly what the potential assets of Greece were to if default occurred. These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway. In fact the dubious financial structure of of Greece made the banks even more desirous of making these loans because they knew that default would be inevitable.

    Greece is in debt for one reason. Banks, being the high level, slightly more respectable loan sharks they are, absolutely love to make to make loans to asset rich governments that they know can't repay them. These dubious loans are made specifically with the intention of eventually seizing the assets of those dumb enough to accept them. If you don't believe this, read John Perkins' classic book about how this is done.

    http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1464017448&sr=8-2&keywords=economic+hit+man

    These banks have been screwing over third world countries for decades using these types of loans. We are only hearing about this process now because it is occurring to Greece, a western country. Resistance is usually futile. Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed "color revolutions" which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina.

    It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks. At the same time, something else invariably happens, taxpayers of western countries are asked to bail out these dubious loans to prevent potential financial panics threatened by these banks. In the rare case that a country is able to recover financially, the previously grossly under appraised assets that were seized by the banks are then sold back to the government at grossly over appraised prices.

    Ask any Silicon Valley venture capitalist why the process of making often dubious loans can be so immensely profitable. For every successful Google or Facebook there are probably twenty companies which have had their assets stripped after succumbing to the terms of such loans.

    “Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed “color revolutions” which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina. It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks.”

    Thank you. Very clear explanation for the financial wars.
    Curious how far the Greecophobes could go while defending the “beautiful minds” of the IMF and Empire of Federal Reserve (WallStreet/City).

    http://themillenniumreport.com/2016/04/greek-default-2016-a-bankruptcy-which-cannot-be-avoided/

    http://www.thenation.com/article/goldmans-greek-gambit/

    Read More
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  27. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Wally
    The terms of the deals were not secret.
    The average Greeks were onboard all the way, they took the money without hesitation. After all, where did the lazy Greeks think the money was coming from?

    Gee, who doesn't want to retire at 50?

    The lazy Greeks do so little work anyway that the word 'retirement' is almost irrelevant.

    The terms of the deals were not secret.

    Deals?

    The fiddled economic stats that got Greece into the Euro which changed their credit rating which allowed the debt to increase beyond a level that could be repaid.

    Odious debt.

    Loan sharking.

    Treason.

    And as mentioned it’s not just Greece; what they’re doing to Greece is a trial run for the looting of all western nations – including the USA – by the banking mafia.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wally
    And who fiddled the stats? Greeks, that's who, to keep other peoples money flowing in for their 'do little or nothing and retire at 50' Marxist existence.

    Right, it's so bad that the Greeks want to stay in the EU and continue to be 'victimized'.

    Banking mafia? Oh please.

    I guess the Greeks can't read a contract.

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money.
     
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  28. Sherman says:
    @Rehmat
    Greeks have no sense of judgment to sort out who are their friends or enemies. For example, they're indirectly ruled by Ottoman Muslim Turks for over 350 years. The hated them so much that they destroyed every single mosque in the country after their "liberation" from Turkey.

    Then they began their love affair with the so-called "civilized West" by applying latter's all "Jewish values" - but lost their national dignity, economy and liberty to practice their version of Christianity.

    Last year, Greek parliament passed a bill (193-56) legalizing civil partnership for gay couples, two years after the country was condemned by a European court for discrimination. However, gay couples wouldn’t be allowed to adopt Greek children. But, like Israeli Jews they can have surrogate babies.

    Fundamentalist Bishops in Greece’s powerful anti-Muslim Orthodox Church, led by Bishop Seraphim of Piraeus, have vehemently opposed the law, arguing it undermine the institution of family.

    Bishop Seraphim has blamed the Zionist Monster for the legislation. He said the cohabitation bill is result of the “constant war against the faith” being waged by “the international Zionist Monster”, which he claimed control the Greek government – the most anti-Muslim European state.

    Bishop Seraphim, in the past, had been accused of denying Zionists’ narrative of Holocaust and believing in the authenticity of The Protocols of Zion.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/12/23/top-bishop-zionist-monster-controls-greece/

    Hey Homer

    Does Canadian law allow you to cohabitate with your goat?

    Sherm

    Read More
    • Replies: @Rehmat
    Hey Sharon - In fact Canadian law does far better than that. It allows every non-Jew to cohabitate with your Jewish sisters.

    http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=6047
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  29. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @silly billy
    Boy, the IMF/banker trolls out in force. If you were listen to them, you would get the idea that cunning and shifty old Greece had managed to to pull one on banks that must have been run by country bumpkins.

    Let's get this straight right now, historically hardily anyone has ever managed to put one over on these banking leeches.

    Before even making the first of these loans these banks sent very bright, extremely well paid appraisers to carefully ascertain to the penny exactly what the potential assets of Greece were to if default occurred. These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway. In fact the dubious financial structure of of Greece made the banks even more desirous of making these loans because they knew that default would be inevitable.

    Greece is in debt for one reason. Banks, being the high level, slightly more respectable loan sharks they are, absolutely love to make to make loans to asset rich governments that they know can't repay them. These dubious loans are made specifically with the intention of eventually seizing the assets of those dumb enough to accept them. If you don't believe this, read John Perkins' classic book about how this is done.

    http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1464017448&sr=8-2&keywords=economic+hit+man

    These banks have been screwing over third world countries for decades using these types of loans. We are only hearing about this process now because it is occurring to Greece, a western country. Resistance is usually futile. Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed "color revolutions" which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina.

    It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks. At the same time, something else invariably happens, taxpayers of western countries are asked to bail out these dubious loans to prevent potential financial panics threatened by these banks. In the rare case that a country is able to recover financially, the previously grossly under appraised assets that were seized by the banks are then sold back to the government at grossly over appraised prices.

    Ask any Silicon Valley venture capitalist why the process of making often dubious loans can be so immensely profitable. For every successful Google or Facebook there are probably twenty companies which have had their assets stripped after succumbing to the terms of such loans.

    Exactly.

    These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway.

    They *knew* beforehand that the loans they were making could never be repaid – not would not but could not possibly – and that is precisely why they made the loans.

    Loan sharking – no intention of ever being repaid – all designed to strip the *assets* after the loans blow up.

    Read More
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  30. @Wally
    Your argument buys into the false 'two wrongs make a right'.

    However, the Greeks are given a choice, the Americans are not.

    Now factor in the unwanted US military spending per year vs. the Greek military spending per year, per capita.

    Now factor in the unwanted US spending per year, per capita for: TSA, NSA, CIA, HLS, racist Israel; on & on it goes, all without the public's approval. The Greeks have no such encumbrances.

    Their money goes to such things as retirement at 5o, even though they never really worked to begin with.

    “Your argument buys into the false ‘two wrongs make a right’.”

    The world operates on ‘two wrongs make a right’ and seldom is ‘right’ delivered. It starts out with ‘might makes right’ which is wrong and it’s all downhill after that.

    So the question in alexander’s case is do these two wrongs make a just solution. Clawing back as much money as possible stolen by ‘might makes right’ is a just solution and for that reason alone, it will never see the light of day.

    Read More
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  31. alexander says:
    @Wally
    Your argument buys into the false 'two wrongs make a right'.

    However, the Greeks are given a choice, the Americans are not.

    Now factor in the unwanted US military spending per year vs. the Greek military spending per year, per capita.

    Now factor in the unwanted US spending per year, per capita for: TSA, NSA, CIA, HLS, racist Israel; on & on it goes, all without the public's approval. The Greeks have no such encumbrances.

    Their money goes to such things as retirement at 5o, even though they never really worked to begin with.

    You may be right, Wally.

    But Its hard for me to tell how much Greece was a victim of the massive global subprime banking fraud debacle, too.

    There seems to be a lot of obfuscation around that issue.

    It seems their debt spiked pretty high after the subprime fiasco , then just compounded exponentially from there.

    I haven’t looked at the charts,recently, but their debt seemed to soar from 196 billion to 360 billion in , like, three years.

    Certainly every sovereign state that bought into the mortgage debt swindle (and its phony AAA rating), took it on the chin.

    Nobody is allowed to discuss whether Greece bought into the subprime fraud, and how much it lost, as a result .

    Look at Iceland, weren’t they the first to go belly up ?

    Read More
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  32. You mean when I signed that debt agreement and you loaned me money you expected me to pay it back?

    Ah, now we see the violence inherent in the system.
    Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system!
    HELP! HELP! I’m being repressed!

    Read More
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  33. woodNfish says:
    @Priss Factor
    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.

    If you know Greeks, you would know what I'm talking about. I don't hate Greeks. In many ways, I love them. But I wouldn't trust them with two cents.

    When it comes to integrity, just remember.... "Eek, it's a Greek."

    Greeks are grooks, or Greek Crooks.

    Modern Greeks are like Gypsies with a great history(that has all been forgotten).

    I think all the slave races that the Greeks took in eventually turned the Greek bloodline into one of Grookery.

    Back in the early 70′s I used to know a turbine engineer who worked for GE. He said GE would no longer service Greek flagged ships unless they paid for the work up front because too many of them would get new turbines installed and then sail out of port and GE would be left holding the bag.

    Of course since that time GE seems to have learned a lot from the Greeks about stealing which is why the company is nothing more than a crony capitalist leach today.

    Don’t buy GE products.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    That sounds about right. Don't trust a Greek or a Grook.

    Grooks of today are just somewhat better gypsies. They are such scuzzo slimeballs(even though I like them).

    Here's the thing. Jews as a group can be conniving and lowdown. But when you deal with individual Jews, many are decent and conscientious. You can trust many Jews as responsible and decent folks on a person-to-person basis.

    But I wouldn't trust a Grook on any level. But they make good food, excellent cookie, love music, and act funny.
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  34. @alexander
    Its interesting if you look at the facts and compare the Greek debt fiasco to our current 20 trillion dollar debt fiasco.

    There are about 11 million Greeks and the debt they have accumulated (by sloth, fraud, uber- pensions or what have you ) is estimated at 360 billion.

    If you do the math,

    that amounts to about $33,000 per Greek .


    Our national debt is 20 trillion.

    There are about 320 million Americans.


    That amounts to about $56,000 per American.

    The debt the Greek people owe is slightly more than half what we owe ourselves ,today, so why all the fuss about Greek debt ?

    and if they are all just lazy good-for-nothings, what does it say about "us" ?

    Rather we should focus on remedies for our own massive debt problem, and how it was created.

    As a matter of fact, the first order of business of the next POTUS should be to claw back as much of the stolen trillions we were conned out of, through "war fraud" , "banking fraud" and "terror fraud".

    Then the US can restore a modicum of solvency to its balance sheet, and severely delimit the power of those who would seek to defraud us out of our dough, in the future.

    What do you think?

    I agree.

    If Greece possessed a petrodrachma/reserve currency they wouldn’t be facing bankruptcy.

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  35. alexander says:
    @Wally
    Your argument buys into the false 'two wrongs make a right'.

    However, the Greeks are given a choice, the Americans are not.

    Now factor in the unwanted US military spending per year vs. the Greek military spending per year, per capita.

    Now factor in the unwanted US spending per year, per capita for: TSA, NSA, CIA, HLS, racist Israel; on & on it goes, all without the public's approval. The Greeks have no such encumbrances.

    Their money goes to such things as retirement at 5o, even though they never really worked to begin with.

    Actually two wrongs always make a wrong.

    Which is my point.

    You somehow manage to be absolutely certain that the Greek people have total control over what their elected government chooses to do, and how much debt it creates….and that Americans have NO control over what their elected officials do, and how much debt they create….

    ….and your certainty about this is based on what ….again ?

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  36. Rehmat says:
    @Sherman
    Hey Homer

    Does Canadian law allow you to cohabitate with your goat?

    Sherm

    Hey Sharon – In fact Canadian law does far better than that. It allows every non-Jew to cohabitate with your Jewish sisters.

    http://www.radicalpress.com/?p=6047

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  37. Rehmat says:

    Earlier this month, Greek Jewish lobby leaders in a letter protested to country’s National Tourism Agency after its website and brochures listed the Easter practice of Judas burning as a recommended folk attraction.

    “This custom perpetuates antisemitic feelings and it is characteristic that in other European countries it has almost vanished,” said the letter.

    The tourism website tells travelers they can observe the ancient ritual of Judas Burning – during which an effigy of Judas Iscariot made by wood and straw and filled with explosives is set on fire. Thanks to powerful European Jewish lobby groups, the practice has long been banned in most of Europe. However, it’s still practiced in Greece, Philippines, Mexico and many Catholic-majority South American nations.

    Had I not been sick to stomach of double standards practiced by the Organized Jewry when it comes to insulting Muslim and Christian religious leaders, I would have condemned this practice because Judas Iscariot became a Jewish folk hero for putting Jesus on the Cross.

    In Thrace, northern Greece, a Judas Iscariot effigy is paraded by children in the streets, asking locals for branches so they can burn him. On Holy Friday, the procession of the Epitaph stops outside a chapel, where the fire is ready to burn Judas. Once the priest starts reading the Gospel, they light the fire and burn the effigy. Later, they take a handful of the ashes and scatter them in the graveyard.

    In recent years, people have used the effigies to represent corrupt politicians or businessmen. In Venezuela in 2008, a Judas dressed up as an Exxon representative (above) was burned following the settlement of a legal fight between the nation and the oil giant.

    In 2005, the Christian Holy tradition of Burning the Jew, was condemned by US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice. Greece essentially responded by saying, you’re idiots.

    https://rehmat1.com/2016/05/09/greece-offers-judas-burning-to-tourists/

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  38. Wally says: • Website
    @anon

    The terms of the deals were not secret.
     
    Deals?

    The fiddled economic stats that got Greece into the Euro which changed their credit rating which allowed the debt to increase beyond a level that could be repaid.

    Odious debt.

    Loan sharking.

    Treason.


    And as mentioned it's not just Greece; what they're doing to Greece is a trial run for the looting of all western nations - including the USA - by the banking mafia.

    And who fiddled the stats? Greeks, that’s who, to keep other peoples money flowing in for their ‘do little or nothing and retire at 50′ Marxist existence.

    Right, it’s so bad that the Greeks want to stay in the EU and continue to be ‘victimized’.

    Banking mafia? Oh please.

    I guess the Greeks can’t read a contract.

    The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people’s money.

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  39. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:

    Jews and Germans invade Greece financially.

    Grooks mooch off everyone and lie like crazy.

    And Arabs/Muslims displaced by Obama-and-Hillary’s wars are invading Europe demographically.

    Get a load of this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/17/clinton-poland-hungary-reject-mass-migration/

    Call it what it is: MASS INVASION.

    The reason why Arabs/Muslims are moving around in huge numbers is because their lands have been destroyed by Bush II, Obama, and Hillary, all of whom are shills of Jewish-Supremacist Zio-imperialists.

    American Empire destroyed the Middle East and North Africa. This invasion destroyed millions of lives. But Obama and Hillary are trying to shift the blame on OTHER PEOPLE. They caused the ‘humanitarian crisis’ with their ceaseless war-mongering, but they are pretending to be warm-hearted people who are for taking in refugees while cold-hearted Poles refuse to do so.

    But Poland didn’t create this crisis. This crisis was created by Hillary and Obama at the behest of Jewish Supremacists.

    Imagine if Obama and Hillary destroyed someone’s house and then accused you of not taking in homeless people.

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    • Replies: @another fred

    American Empire destroyed the Middle East and North Africa.
     
    They were cess pits long before the US got there. That is not to argue that the invasion was a good idea, it was not. If you want to blame something or someone for the state of the MENA blame whoever brought them modern medicine and fed them so that they could grow beyond the carrying capacity of the land and the disciplines of their culture.
    , @Rehmat
    Nyeth Moshe - the Black Jewish president didn't displaced Arab/Muslims to flood Europe. It's Zionist pigs occupying Palestine who displaced millions of Arabs/Muslims to make space for the remaining Europe's UNWANTED JEWS.

    In July 2012, Gabriel M. Scheinmann, a visiting Fellow at the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), admitted that the Zionist entity is in fact the winner of the so-called “Arab Spring”.

    “The so-called “Arab Spring” has, paradoxically, made Israel stronger as Israel’s enemies have turned on each other. While Arab capitals burn, Jerusalem has calmly and carefully steeled itself against the possible immediate deleterious effects, building fences along its Egyptian and Jordanian borders and accelerating the deployment of its Iron Dome anti-missile system,” wrote Scheinmann. He then added: “Even as it rightly plans for the changes wrought by the “Arab Spring”, Israel should also recognize that as the Middle East convulses, it is more likely to be left alone. As Alawites battle Arab Sunnis and Kurds in Syria, as Kurds target Turks in Turkey, as the Imazighen fight Arabs in Libya, as the Army contends with Islamists in Egypt, and as Sunnis and Christians confront Shiites in Lebanon, people don’t have the time, energy, or resources to fight the Jews in Israel. The more the region tears itself apart, the more Israel floats to the top, unscathed economically, militarily, or diplomatically. While an Islamist ascent is undesirable, the intervening disorder only makes Israel stronger.”


    https://rehmat1.com/2012/07/17/jinsa-israel-is-winner-of-arab-spring/
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  40. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:
    @woodNfish
    Back in the early 70's I used to know a turbine engineer who worked for GE. He said GE would no longer service Greek flagged ships unless they paid for the work up front because too many of them would get new turbines installed and then sail out of port and GE would be left holding the bag.

    Of course since that time GE seems to have learned a lot from the Greeks about stealing which is why the company is nothing more than a crony capitalist leach today.

    Don't buy GE products.

    That sounds about right. Don’t trust a Greek or a Grook.

    Grooks of today are just somewhat better gypsies. They are such scuzzo slimeballs(even though I like them).

    Here’s the thing. Jews as a group can be conniving and lowdown. But when you deal with individual Jews, many are decent and conscientious. You can trust many Jews as responsible and decent folks on a person-to-person basis.

    But I wouldn’t trust a Grook on any level. But they make good food, excellent cookie, love music, and act funny.

    Read More
    • Replies: @woodNfish

    A grook ("gruk" in Danish) is a form of short aphoristic poem. It was initially presented by the Danish poet and scientist Piet Hein, who wrote over 7000 of them, ...
     
    I have no idea what you are trying to say.
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  41. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Banks used to be 80% critical utility and 20% organised crime.

    From the 1980s onwards they gradually switched to 20% utility, 80% organized crime.

    It’s not capitalism or socialism; it’s crime.

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  42. Ivy says:
    @another fred
    Traditional bankruptcy (Chapter 13 in the US) means liquidation of assets. A chapter 11 bankruptcy is only available if you can work out some way to "reorganize" and pay off debts.

    Neither is very pleasant, you don't just get to raise your finger and walk away. Both bear similarities to what is being offered to Greece.

    Raising your finger and walking away is called default, which may eventually be Greece's best option.

    Essentially the entire world owes more than it can pay. Helicopter money awaits in the future.

    US Chapter 13 is for individuals to work out their debts in a wage-earner plan.
    Companies or individuals can go Chapter 7, or be forced into that by creditors, to liquidate.
    Chapter 11 is generally for companies to reorganize their debts.
    There is a type of US option for the Greeks to use via Chapter 15 for international BK coordination.

    When the Greeks entered the EU, and hid or misstated their assets and liabilities, they doubled down on keeping their ouzo flowing to pensioners. They gave away their sovereignty and didn’t even get a mess of pottage. They did, however, spend a fortune on their Olympics, and barely got projects done in time. That was one tip-off.

    Now awaiting Brazil’s turn.

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    • Replies: @another fred
    I stand corrected. You obviously know better.

    Thanks.
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  43. @annamaria
    "...and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization."

    Gangsterism by the finest; everything in the name of neo-Feudal "purity."

    "When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators. When ELAS-EAM held a huge demonstration in Athens, police opened fire and killed 28 people. The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members, who once again took up arms as a resistance movement. In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. The U.S. role in supporting an incompetent fascist government in Greece was enshrined in the "Truman Doctrine," seen by many historians as the beginning of the Cold War."
    http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists

    Is the implication that Germans would NOT have run Greece better than the Greeks themselves have run it since then?

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  44. @anon

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.
     
    The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.

    They'll be doing it to every country in the EU, one after the other, not just the Greeks.

    The media is owned by the banking mafia and they always lie - in this case getting everyone in northern Europe blaming the Greeks and everyone in the south blaming the Germans.

    Your comment seems to rely for its validity on the truth of your assertion that “the media is owned by the banking mafia” but you don’t say which media outlets in which countries. Obviously Rupert Murdoch’s media are not owned by a “media mafia” just for one major example. The trust which owns The Guardian, and also the New York Times and the Washington Post are other obvious counter examples. So what can you add to make sense of your case?

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  45. @anon

    Look, the Greeks should say NO and drop the Euro.
     
    Yes they should but their media (owned by the banking mafia) tell them that would be even worse.

    I’ve suspected ever since the Greeks buckled under to the fiscal tightening required of them to get the money which in turn was about protecting the French and German banks that Greek leaders accepted that major reforms were needed and could only be achieved under outside pressure. Of course Greece should drop the Euro but it arguably should use the opportunity to reverse the profligacy of its years of self-indulgence after it joined the Eurozone, and then choose a currency value that can be maintained – and competitive.

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  46. @Ivy
    US Chapter 13 is for individuals to work out their debts in a wage-earner plan.
    Companies or individuals can go Chapter 7, or be forced into that by creditors, to liquidate.
    Chapter 11 is generally for companies to reorganize their debts.
    There is a type of US option for the Greeks to use via Chapter 15 for international BK coordination.

    When the Greeks entered the EU, and hid or misstated their assets and liabilities, they doubled down on keeping their ouzo flowing to pensioners. They gave away their sovereignty and didn't even get a mess of pottage. They did, however, spend a fortune on their Olympics, and barely got projects done in time. That was one tip-off.

    Now awaiting Brazil's turn.

    I stand corrected. You obviously know better.

    Thanks.

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  47. anon says: • Disclaimer

    All the shills arguing that Greece sucks as a credit candidate for various reasons are quite right.

    That’s the point.

    The banking mafia lent to them anyway knowing all of that…

    because they were loan sharking.

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    • Agree: Jacques Sheete
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If you suck as a credit candidate, you have to pay more interest or put up more collateral or both. That's what happened with Greece.

    So what's your point? Are you saying that people should be able to borrow money and not repay i.e. steal money?
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  48. @Priss Factor
    Jews and Germans invade Greece financially.

    Grooks mooch off everyone and lie like crazy.

    And Arabs/Muslims displaced by Obama-and-Hillary's wars are invading Europe demographically.

    Get a load of this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/17/clinton-poland-hungary-reject-mass-migration/

    Call it what it is: MASS INVASION.

    The reason why Arabs/Muslims are moving around in huge numbers is because their lands have been destroyed by Bush II, Obama, and Hillary, all of whom are shills of Jewish-Supremacist Zio-imperialists.

    American Empire destroyed the Middle East and North Africa. This invasion destroyed millions of lives. But Obama and Hillary are trying to shift the blame on OTHER PEOPLE. They caused the 'humanitarian crisis' with their ceaseless war-mongering, but they are pretending to be warm-hearted people who are for taking in refugees while cold-hearted Poles refuse to do so.

    But Poland didn't create this crisis. This crisis was created by Hillary and Obama at the behest of Jewish Supremacists.

    Imagine if Obama and Hillary destroyed someone's house and then accused you of not taking in homeless people.

    American Empire destroyed the Middle East and North Africa.

    They were cess pits long before the US got there. That is not to argue that the invasion was a good idea, it was not. If you want to blame something or someone for the state of the MENA blame whoever brought them modern medicine and fed them so that they could grow beyond the carrying capacity of the land and the disciplines of their culture.

    Read More
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  49. @anon

    I understand that the banksters are looking to fleece Greece(of whatever assets it has left), but Greeks brought this on themselves cuz they are so corrupt, deceitful, bickersome, and sneaky.
     
    The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.

    They'll be doing it to every country in the EU, one after the other, not just the Greeks.

    The media is owned by the banking mafia and they always lie - in this case getting everyone in northern Europe blaming the Greeks and everyone in the south blaming the Germans.

    This is the formula in a nutshell, and it’s coming soon to a country near every one of us no doubt.

    “The banking mafia bribed a handful of Greek politicians to betray their people and when the Greeks elected new politicians the banking mafia bribed them as well.”

    And once again, Hudson is correct; it is, has been and will continue to be financial warfare. The crooks can and no doubt intend to control whole countries.

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  50. woodNfish says:
    @Priss Factor
    That sounds about right. Don't trust a Greek or a Grook.

    Grooks of today are just somewhat better gypsies. They are such scuzzo slimeballs(even though I like them).

    Here's the thing. Jews as a group can be conniving and lowdown. But when you deal with individual Jews, many are decent and conscientious. You can trust many Jews as responsible and decent folks on a person-to-person basis.

    But I wouldn't trust a Grook on any level. But they make good food, excellent cookie, love music, and act funny.

    A grook (“gruk” in Danish) is a form of short aphoristic poem. It was initially presented by the Danish poet and scientist Piet Hein, who wrote over 7000 of them, …

    I have no idea what you are trying to say.

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    • Replies: @Priss Factor
    Grook: Greek Crook.
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  51. Da-Mith says:

    A lot of the readers at Unz aren’t real bright and are keen to display their ignorance. “The Greeks deserve it…Oh the Greeks done this..Oh the Greeks done that…”
    The Greek Debt Crisis is the logical and desired outcome of a Worldwide Ponzi Monetary System based on Fractional Reserve Banking administered and controlled by Cold Blooded Homicidal Megalomaniacs.
    Greece is but the first of many. The debts incurred by all nations under the current system can never be repaid. Once you understand by how and by whom money is “created”… you will see this is true.

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  52. Priss Factor [AKA "Anonymny"] says:
    @woodNfish

    A grook ("gruk" in Danish) is a form of short aphoristic poem. It was initially presented by the Danish poet and scientist Piet Hein, who wrote over 7000 of them, ...
     
    I have no idea what you are trying to say.

    Grook: Greek Crook.

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  53. @silly billy
    Boy, the IMF/banker trolls out in force. If you were listen to them, you would get the idea that cunning and shifty old Greece had managed to to pull one on banks that must have been run by country bumpkins.

    Let's get this straight right now, historically hardily anyone has ever managed to put one over on these banking leeches.

    Before even making the first of these loans these banks sent very bright, extremely well paid appraisers to carefully ascertain to the penny exactly what the potential assets of Greece were to if default occurred. These banks already knew about the dubious tax collection structure and the liabilities of the Greek government but made the loans anyway. In fact the dubious financial structure of of Greece made the banks even more desirous of making these loans because they knew that default would be inevitable.

    Greece is in debt for one reason. Banks, being the high level, slightly more respectable loan sharks they are, absolutely love to make to make loans to asset rich governments that they know can't repay them. These dubious loans are made specifically with the intention of eventually seizing the assets of those dumb enough to accept them. If you don't believe this, read John Perkins' classic book about how this is done.

    http://www.amazon.com/Confessions-Economic-Hit-John-Perkins/dp/0452287081/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1464017448&sr=8-2&keywords=economic+hit+man

    These banks have been screwing over third world countries for decades using these types of loans. We are only hearing about this process now because it is occurring to Greece, a western country. Resistance is usually futile. Banks invariably push aside the real reformers and put their own people in control using the process of well honed "color revolutions" which are actually defacto coups. They did it in Greece and more recently they did it in Argentina.

    It is only when default occurs that the really immense profits become possible. Then, grossly undervalued assets are seized by banks. At the same time, something else invariably happens, taxpayers of western countries are asked to bail out these dubious loans to prevent potential financial panics threatened by these banks. In the rare case that a country is able to recover financially, the previously grossly under appraised assets that were seized by the banks are then sold back to the government at grossly over appraised prices.

    Ask any Silicon Valley venture capitalist why the process of making often dubious loans can be so immensely profitable. For every successful Google or Facebook there are probably twenty companies which have had their assets stripped after succumbing to the terms of such loans.

    Excellent comment. Spot on. Actually though, the banksters have been screwing over everyone, not only third world countries.

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  54. […] UNZ REVIEW The Financial Invasion of Greece […]

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  55. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Rehmat
    Greeks have no sense of judgment to sort out who are their friends or enemies. For example, they're indirectly ruled by Ottoman Muslim Turks for over 350 years. The hated them so much that they destroyed every single mosque in the country after their "liberation" from Turkey.

    Then they began their love affair with the so-called "civilized West" by applying latter's all "Jewish values" - but lost their national dignity, economy and liberty to practice their version of Christianity.

    Last year, Greek parliament passed a bill (193-56) legalizing civil partnership for gay couples, two years after the country was condemned by a European court for discrimination. However, gay couples wouldn’t be allowed to adopt Greek children. But, like Israeli Jews they can have surrogate babies.

    Fundamentalist Bishops in Greece’s powerful anti-Muslim Orthodox Church, led by Bishop Seraphim of Piraeus, have vehemently opposed the law, arguing it undermine the institution of family.

    Bishop Seraphim has blamed the Zionist Monster for the legislation. He said the cohabitation bill is result of the “constant war against the faith” being waged by “the international Zionist Monster”, which he claimed control the Greek government – the most anti-Muslim European state.

    Bishop Seraphim, in the past, had been accused of denying Zionists’ narrative of Holocaust and believing in the authenticity of The Protocols of Zion.

    https://rehmat1.com/2015/12/23/top-bishop-zionist-monster-controls-greece/

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  56. Rehmat says:
    @Priss Factor
    Jews and Germans invade Greece financially.

    Grooks mooch off everyone and lie like crazy.

    And Arabs/Muslims displaced by Obama-and-Hillary's wars are invading Europe demographically.

    Get a load of this: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/05/17/clinton-poland-hungary-reject-mass-migration/

    Call it what it is: MASS INVASION.

    The reason why Arabs/Muslims are moving around in huge numbers is because their lands have been destroyed by Bush II, Obama, and Hillary, all of whom are shills of Jewish-Supremacist Zio-imperialists.

    American Empire destroyed the Middle East and North Africa. This invasion destroyed millions of lives. But Obama and Hillary are trying to shift the blame on OTHER PEOPLE. They caused the 'humanitarian crisis' with their ceaseless war-mongering, but they are pretending to be warm-hearted people who are for taking in refugees while cold-hearted Poles refuse to do so.

    But Poland didn't create this crisis. This crisis was created by Hillary and Obama at the behest of Jewish Supremacists.

    Imagine if Obama and Hillary destroyed someone's house and then accused you of not taking in homeless people.

    Nyeth Moshe – the Black Jewish president didn’t displaced Arab/Muslims to flood Europe. It’s Zionist pigs occupying Palestine who displaced millions of Arabs/Muslims to make space for the remaining Europe’s UNWANTED JEWS.

    In July 2012, Gabriel M. Scheinmann, a visiting Fellow at the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs (JINSA), admitted that the Zionist entity is in fact the winner of the so-called “Arab Spring”.

    “The so-called “Arab Spring” has, paradoxically, made Israel stronger as Israel’s enemies have turned on each other. While Arab capitals burn, Jerusalem has calmly and carefully steeled itself against the possible immediate deleterious effects, building fences along its Egyptian and Jordanian borders and accelerating the deployment of its Iron Dome anti-missile system,” wrote Scheinmann. He then added: “Even as it rightly plans for the changes wrought by the “Arab Spring”, Israel should also recognize that as the Middle East convulses, it is more likely to be left alone. As Alawites battle Arab Sunnis and Kurds in Syria, as Kurds target Turks in Turkey, as the Imazighen fight Arabs in Libya, as the Army contends with Islamists in Egypt, and as Sunnis and Christians confront Shiites in Lebanon, people don’t have the time, energy, or resources to fight the Jews in Israel. The more the region tears itself apart, the more Israel floats to the top, unscathed economically, militarily, or diplomatically. While an Islamist ascent is undesirable, the intervening disorder only makes Israel stronger.”

    https://rehmat1.com/2012/07/17/jinsa-israel-is-winner-of-arab-spring/

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  57. Rehmat says:

    Anonymous – here is something your MAMa or Donald Trump will never tell you.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Dave Pinsen
    If Jews killed Jesus, then they were native to what is now Israel/Palestine. So, contra your previous comment, they aren't occupying Palestine; they have simply returned to their old home, and allowed some of the squatters to stay as well.
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  58. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    All the shills arguing that Greece sucks as a credit candidate for various reasons are quite right.

    That's the point.

    The banking mafia lent to them anyway knowing all of that...

    because they were loan sharking.

    If you suck as a credit candidate, you have to pay more interest or put up more collateral or both. That’s what happened with Greece.

    So what’s your point? Are you saying that people should be able to borrow money and not repay i.e. steal money?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jacques Sheete
    The point is that the politicians should pay it back then, not "the people."
    , @anon

    That’s what happened with Greece.
     
    No it wasn't.

    Lenders asking for more collateral *in advance* is the honest way of doing it.

    The banking mafia aren't honest - they want to sucker ppl into debt and then demand the collateral afterwards.

    Wall St. is organized crime - the US is like what Chicago would have been like in the 1920s if Al Capone had owned all the newspapers and radio stations.

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  59. @Anonymous
    If you suck as a credit candidate, you have to pay more interest or put up more collateral or both. That's what happened with Greece.

    So what's your point? Are you saying that people should be able to borrow money and not repay i.e. steal money?

    The point is that the politicians should pay it back then, not “the people.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The money went to the people through government spending, public sector salaries, pensions, etc.
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  60. kiismerh says:
    @Priss Factor
    You just don't know the Grooks at the ground level. They are thieving, back-stabbing, lecherous, treacherous lowlife vermin.

    But they are fun people and I like them.

    Just like the Jews. They are likeable vermins too.

    Read More
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  61. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Jacques Sheete
    The point is that the politicians should pay it back then, not "the people."

    The money went to the people through government spending, public sector salaries, pensions, etc.

    Read More
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  62. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    If you suck as a credit candidate, you have to pay more interest or put up more collateral or both. That's what happened with Greece.

    So what's your point? Are you saying that people should be able to borrow money and not repay i.e. steal money?

    That’s what happened with Greece.

    No it wasn’t.

    Lenders asking for more collateral *in advance* is the honest way of doing it.

    The banking mafia aren’t honest – they want to sucker ppl into debt and then demand the collateral afterwards.

    Wall St. is organized crime – the US is like what Chicago would have been like in the 1920s if Al Capone had owned all the newspapers and radio stations.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    They're not asking for collateral afterwards. Collateral is pledged before loans. They're asking for repayment. When you have to pay back a loan but don't have sufficient income to pay, generally you have to cut your budget and or sell of some of your assets to come up with the money for repayment. Are you suggesting it's wrong to pay back loans?
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  63. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon

    That’s what happened with Greece.
     
    No it wasn't.

    Lenders asking for more collateral *in advance* is the honest way of doing it.

    The banking mafia aren't honest - they want to sucker ppl into debt and then demand the collateral afterwards.

    Wall St. is organized crime - the US is like what Chicago would have been like in the 1920s if Al Capone had owned all the newspapers and radio stations.

    They’re not asking for collateral afterwards. Collateral is pledged before loans. They’re asking for repayment. When you have to pay back a loan but don’t have sufficient income to pay, generally you have to cut your budget and or sell of some of your assets to come up with the money for repayment. Are you suggesting it’s wrong to pay back loans?

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    That is exactly what they're doing.

    They *didn't* ask for collateral before or they wouldn't need to hold Greece down now while they asset strip - they would have got all these previously government owned islands and airports as part of the original debt contract.

    They *didn't* do that because if people knew in advance these corrupt traitor politicians had signed such a contract it would have never got through.

    Are you suggesting it’s wrong to pay back loans?
     
    I am suggesting that Wall St. are organized crime and the entire pack should be jail.
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  64. utu says:

    The crisis in Greece is artificially created. Its objective is to destroy Euro and undermine EU. Greeks blame Germans while it is Germany the is the real target of the attack. Everything what is going on is aimed at weakening Germany and preventing it from allying itself with Russia. I am surprised that Mr. Hudson does not see it.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Catiline
    One of the few valid posts on this thread.Except germany is partly to blame for the current crisis. All of Europe is the real target, not just Germany.
    , @anon
    I can see why people could think this but personally I think it's just a side effect of the banks massively screwing up in the years up to the 2008 almost crash.

    Nothing was actually fixed in 2008 and all that has happened since then has been designed solely to shovel money into the banks to cover the vast losses of the still unexploded housing market - Greece is being sacrificed to stop the big Euro banks exploding and taking the US banks with them.

    It's like the banks needed nine pints of blood from nine guys but instead of one pint each, eight of them hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him.

    The motive isn't provable though so whatever - the main thing is Greece was loan sharked and although they don't realize it the people talking about how much the Greeks suck are making the exact same point.
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  65. Dave Pinsen says: • Website
    @Rehmat
    Anonymous - here is something your MAMa or Donald Trump will never tell you.

    https://youtu.be/M539PgDjbas

    If Jews killed Jesus, then they were native to what is now Israel/Palestine. So, contra your previous comment, they aren’t occupying Palestine; they have simply returned to their old home, and allowed some of the squatters to stay as well.

    Read More
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  66. Catiline says:
    @utu
    The crisis in Greece is artificially created. Its objective is to destroy Euro and undermine EU. Greeks blame Germans while it is Germany the is the real target of the attack. Everything what is going on is aimed at weakening Germany and preventing it from allying itself with Russia. I am surprised that Mr. Hudson does not see it.

    One of the few valid posts on this thread.Except germany is partly to blame for the current crisis. All of Europe is the real target, not just Germany.

    Read More
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  67. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    They're not asking for collateral afterwards. Collateral is pledged before loans. They're asking for repayment. When you have to pay back a loan but don't have sufficient income to pay, generally you have to cut your budget and or sell of some of your assets to come up with the money for repayment. Are you suggesting it's wrong to pay back loans?

    That is exactly what they’re doing.

    They *didn’t* ask for collateral before or they wouldn’t need to hold Greece down now while they asset strip – they would have got all these previously government owned islands and airports as part of the original debt contract.

    They *didn’t* do that because if people knew in advance these corrupt traitor politicians had signed such a contract it would have never got through.

    Are you suggesting it’s wrong to pay back loans?

    I am suggesting that Wall St. are organized crime and the entire pack should be jail.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    When you take out a loan, the terms of repayment are in monetary terms, and you have to repay out of income or sell off assets to raise cash to repay. This is not a novel concept. Even when a company or person declares bankruptcy, they have to liquidate assets to try to raise funds to pay back creditors.

    What you're saying is that if people knew in advance that they had to actually repay the loans, they would have never taken out the loans in the first place. That may be the case, but that's not a legitimate excuse for stiffing people.

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I'm not sure why you're talking about "Wall St."
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  68. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @utu
    The crisis in Greece is artificially created. Its objective is to destroy Euro and undermine EU. Greeks blame Germans while it is Germany the is the real target of the attack. Everything what is going on is aimed at weakening Germany and preventing it from allying itself with Russia. I am surprised that Mr. Hudson does not see it.

    I can see why people could think this but personally I think it’s just a side effect of the banks massively screwing up in the years up to the 2008 almost crash.

    Nothing was actually fixed in 2008 and all that has happened since then has been designed solely to shovel money into the banks to cover the vast losses of the still unexploded housing market – Greece is being sacrificed to stop the big Euro banks exploding and taking the US banks with them.

    It’s like the banks needed nine pints of blood from nine guys but instead of one pint each, eight of them hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him.

    The motive isn’t provable though so whatever – the main thing is Greece was loan sharked and although they don’t realize it the people talking about how much the Greeks suck are making the exact same point.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    "The motive isn’t provable though so whatever" - One should keep connecting the dots. Did you think why it is Greece and not, say Portugal? From your theory of bankers it should not make any difference. They are just opportunistic and will "hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him". Any 9th guy, right?

    Why Is Greece the Most anti-Semitic Country in Europe?
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.591841

    This also explains why there is so much talk about "how much the Greeks suck ". The suckers, easily buy to this propaganda as you can see from many comments on this forum.
    , @utu
    Why Portugal is not "the 9th guy". Perhaps because Portugal demonstrated much deeper political wisdom than Greece:

    Portugal to grant citizenship to descendants of persecuted Jews
    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/29/portugal-citizenship-descendants-persecuted-sephardic-jews
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  69. utu says:
    @anon
    I can see why people could think this but personally I think it's just a side effect of the banks massively screwing up in the years up to the 2008 almost crash.

    Nothing was actually fixed in 2008 and all that has happened since then has been designed solely to shovel money into the banks to cover the vast losses of the still unexploded housing market - Greece is being sacrificed to stop the big Euro banks exploding and taking the US banks with them.

    It's like the banks needed nine pints of blood from nine guys but instead of one pint each, eight of them hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him.

    The motive isn't provable though so whatever - the main thing is Greece was loan sharked and although they don't realize it the people talking about how much the Greeks suck are making the exact same point.

    “The motive isn’t provable though so whatever” – One should keep connecting the dots. Did you think why it is Greece and not, say Portugal? From your theory of bankers it should not make any difference. They are just opportunistic and will “hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him”. Any 9th guy, right?

    Why Is Greece the Most anti-Semitic Country in Europe?
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.591841

    This also explains why there is so much talk about “how much the Greeks suck “. The suckers, easily buy to this propaganda as you can see from many comments on this forum.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    There may well be specific reasons why Greece was picked to be the 9th guy - my point was simply I think the process started as a result of the banking mafia massively screwing up rather than a smooth plan from the start - but could be wrong.
    , @Catiline
    Exactly right. Always remember, the Anglo-American right, such as it is, is a more dangerous enemy of Europe than any other. It is rotten to it's core.
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  70. utu says:
    @anon
    I can see why people could think this but personally I think it's just a side effect of the banks massively screwing up in the years up to the 2008 almost crash.

    Nothing was actually fixed in 2008 and all that has happened since then has been designed solely to shovel money into the banks to cover the vast losses of the still unexploded housing market - Greece is being sacrificed to stop the big Euro banks exploding and taking the US banks with them.

    It's like the banks needed nine pints of blood from nine guys but instead of one pint each, eight of them hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him.

    The motive isn't provable though so whatever - the main thing is Greece was loan sharked and although they don't realize it the people talking about how much the Greeks suck are making the exact same point.

    Why Portugal is not “the 9th guy”. Perhaps because Portugal demonstrated much deeper political wisdom than Greece:

    Portugal to grant citizenship to descendants of persecuted Jews

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/29/portugal-citizenship-descendants-persecuted-sephardic-jews

    Read More
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  71. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @utu
    "The motive isn’t provable though so whatever" - One should keep connecting the dots. Did you think why it is Greece and not, say Portugal? From your theory of bankers it should not make any difference. They are just opportunistic and will "hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him". Any 9th guy, right?

    Why Is Greece the Most anti-Semitic Country in Europe?
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.591841

    This also explains why there is so much talk about "how much the Greeks suck ". The suckers, easily buy to this propaganda as you can see from many comments on this forum.

    There may well be specific reasons why Greece was picked to be the 9th guy – my point was simply I think the process started as a result of the banking mafia massively screwing up rather than a smooth plan from the start – but could be wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If Greece didn't pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone, interest rates for Greeks and Greek companies would skyrocket, Greece would be starved of Euros, and Greek assets would collapse. Euro holders would be able to come in and snap up Greek assets at firesale prices.

    Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive. Greece would then have to depend on being a cheap labor, vacation, and asset destination.

    In other words, not repaying would not necessarily be much different or better.
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  72. […] by Michael Hudson, Unz Review […]

    Read More
  73. Catiline says:
    @utu
    "The motive isn’t provable though so whatever" - One should keep connecting the dots. Did you think why it is Greece and not, say Portugal? From your theory of bankers it should not make any difference. They are just opportunistic and will "hold down the 9th guy and take it all from him". Any 9th guy, right?

    Why Is Greece the Most anti-Semitic Country in Europe?
    read more: http://www.haaretz.com/jewish/features/1.591841

    This also explains why there is so much talk about "how much the Greeks suck ". The suckers, easily buy to this propaganda as you can see from many comments on this forum.

    Exactly right. Always remember, the Anglo-American right, such as it is, is a more dangerous enemy of Europe than any other. It is rotten to it’s core.

    Read More
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  74. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    That is exactly what they're doing.

    They *didn't* ask for collateral before or they wouldn't need to hold Greece down now while they asset strip - they would have got all these previously government owned islands and airports as part of the original debt contract.

    They *didn't* do that because if people knew in advance these corrupt traitor politicians had signed such a contract it would have never got through.

    Are you suggesting it’s wrong to pay back loans?
     
    I am suggesting that Wall St. are organized crime and the entire pack should be jail.

    When you take out a loan, the terms of repayment are in monetary terms, and you have to repay out of income or sell off assets to raise cash to repay. This is not a novel concept. Even when a company or person declares bankruptcy, they have to liquidate assets to try to raise funds to pay back creditors.

    What you’re saying is that if people knew in advance that they had to actually repay the loans, they would have never taken out the loans in the first place. That may be the case, but that’s not a legitimate excuse for stiffing people.

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I’m not sure why you’re talking about “Wall St.”

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon
    You know what loan-sharking is so stop pretending you don't.
    , @anon
    Forgot a bit

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I’m not sure why you’re talking about “Wall St.”
     
    Wall St banks and Greek politicians cooked the books that let Greece into the Euro.

    Those Greek politicians went to work for Wall St banks afterwards.

    Years later when the debt bomb exploded Wall St banks are in charge of the asset stripping.

    (There are Euro banks involved as well of course - the central banking mafia are international - but the heart of darkness was London but is now Wall St.)
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  75. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    There may well be specific reasons why Greece was picked to be the 9th guy - my point was simply I think the process started as a result of the banking mafia massively screwing up rather than a smooth plan from the start - but could be wrong.

    If Greece didn’t pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone, interest rates for Greeks and Greek companies would skyrocket, Greece would be starved of Euros, and Greek assets would collapse. Euro holders would be able to come in and snap up Greek assets at firesale prices.

    Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive. Greece would then have to depend on being a cheap labor, vacation, and asset destination.

    In other words, not repaying would not necessarily be much different or better.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam Shama
    [Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive.]

    Iceland with it's own currency suffered a period of high inflation and devaluation and now enjoys after a full recovery much better prospects than any of the peripheral EU countries like Greece, Portugal etc.

    , @anon

    If Greece didn’t pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone...
     
    1. The banking mafia are loaning out "money" that doesn't exist and then charging interest on it.

    2. You're assuming the system isn't organised crime.

    The banking mafia *know* they loan-sharked Greece so under normal conditions they'd just squawk in public but shrug their shoulders in private and count how much they made charging interest on nothing.

    It's a bit different now because the entire banking system is so fragile because of what crooks they are but if they can make a profit lending money to Greece - that the Greeks can repay - then they will.
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  76. Olorin says:
    @Epaminondas
    Greeks have no one to blame for their predicament but themselves. Period. Full stop.

    I’m no fan of global banksterism as it exists specifically to prey on genetically predisposed-to-fail populations. (Biologically speaking, that may be unavoidable.)

    On the other hand, the idea that genetically predisposed-to-fail populations can be expected to sustain modern nations or societies is pretty well discredited by now. This is worth considering, for the uninitiated or those who have been hostile to “HBD”:

    https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/the-iq-breaking-point-how-civilized-society-is-maintained-or-lost/

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

    So the question becomes what to do with them if incapable of something more complex…but wanting all the fruits of that merely for existing. Like teenagers who want to be free of Dad’s authority, but still want him picking up the credit card bills at the end of the month, no questions asked.

    National-scale pension funds are modern instruments of finance. A population whose behaviors are disposed to laziness, corruption, and nepotism are going to find it difficult or impossible to use or maintain such instruments. For starters, everybody’s going to want to retire at 50 to a lifetime of gimme gimme and ouzo on the beach.

    This isn’t a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It’s a population-scale genetics matter. I’m of the view that it’s beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems. A naivete that Brussels/EU seems to share.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Israel doesn't pay back any loans. Are Israelis predisposed to this behavior genetically? Or in this case are the lenders genetically predisposed to not demand the payments from Israel?
    , @Catiline
    A 110% Americano.
    , @anon

    This isn’t a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It’s a population-scale genetics matter. I’m of the view that it’s beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems.
     
    Yes, the productivity gap between diff countries in the Euro is too big but that's separate from banks lending money they *knew* could never be repaid because they also knew they could asset strip far more than the loans' value when the loans went bad.
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  77. utu says:
    @Olorin
    I'm no fan of global banksterism as it exists specifically to prey on genetically predisposed-to-fail populations. (Biologically speaking, that may be unavoidable.)

    On the other hand, the idea that genetically predisposed-to-fail populations can be expected to sustain modern nations or societies is pretty well discredited by now. This is worth considering, for the uninitiated or those who have been hostile to "HBD":

    https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/the-iq-breaking-point-how-civilized-society-is-maintained-or-lost/

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

    So the question becomes what to do with them if incapable of something more complex...but wanting all the fruits of that merely for existing. Like teenagers who want to be free of Dad's authority, but still want him picking up the credit card bills at the end of the month, no questions asked.

    National-scale pension funds are modern instruments of finance. A population whose behaviors are disposed to laziness, corruption, and nepotism are going to find it difficult or impossible to use or maintain such instruments. For starters, everybody's going to want to retire at 50 to a lifetime of gimme gimme and ouzo on the beach.

    This isn't a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It's a population-scale genetics matter. I'm of the view that it's beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems. A naivete that Brussels/EU seems to share.

    Israel doesn’t pay back any loans. Are Israelis predisposed to this behavior genetically? Or in this case are the lenders genetically predisposed to not demand the payments from Israel?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Catiline
    No answer from Olorin.
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  78. Sam Shama says:
    @Anonymous
    If Greece didn't pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone, interest rates for Greeks and Greek companies would skyrocket, Greece would be starved of Euros, and Greek assets would collapse. Euro holders would be able to come in and snap up Greek assets at firesale prices.

    Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive. Greece would then have to depend on being a cheap labor, vacation, and asset destination.

    In other words, not repaying would not necessarily be much different or better.

    [Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive.]

    Iceland with it’s own currency suffered a period of high inflation and devaluation and now enjoys after a full recovery much better prospects than any of the peripheral EU countries like Greece, Portugal etc.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis to impose austerity and hike taxes. It also applied for membership to the EU, which made it easier for it to borrow money in the wake of the crisis.

    Greece doesn't have the latter option, as it's already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks.
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  79. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sam Shama
    [Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive.]

    Iceland with it's own currency suffered a period of high inflation and devaluation and now enjoys after a full recovery much better prospects than any of the peripheral EU countries like Greece, Portugal etc.

    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis to impose austerity and hike taxes. It also applied for membership to the EU, which made it easier for it to borrow money in the wake of the crisis.

    Greece doesn’t have the latter option, as it’s already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anon

    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis
     
    Iceland put their local banking mafia in jail.
    , @Sam Shama

    [Greece doesn’t have the latter option, as it’s already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks]
     
    In other words, for them to pursue the Icelandic path, Greece requires its own currency, instead of which, it is held hostage [much like the Gold Standard] by the Euro, which is the de facto fiat of Germany.

    Put differently, Greece is borrowing in a foreign currency, which by the reason of its extended undervaluation over decades, was the principal factor for Germany's wirtschaftswunder. So having benefited from the mercantile economy, accumulating trade and current account surpluses on the back of weak peripherals it [the troika] now insists that the Greek people be subjected to enormous wage devaluations and additional taxation to boot.

    One might ask the question, why does Germany and France, the principals behind the common currency, insist on Greece not exiting? [mind you I am not advocating it, only that they should release their surplus, extinguish Greek debt [innumerable historical precedents e.g. all the way back from Roman times to the present, when Caesar wrote off Helvetian and Gaulish debt] and thus create a much more balanced Eurozone, one that does not require these crises to clear imbalances].

    The answer to the preceding question is self-evident; were the Greeks, the Portuguese, the Spanish to exit and re-introduce their own currencies, they would in turn perhaps suffer a bout of high inflation [like Iceland] but emerge after a period [of 6 months to a year] very much rehabilitated. The effect on the Euro would be unquestionably appreciative, perhaps 50% or more according to some estimates, thus rendering German exports prohibitively expensive, and therein lies the commercial rub which Germans will not countenance. Yet the mutually beneficial solution is also clear, as I jotted parenthetically in the last paragraph.


    Iceland did receive a package worth $2.1 billion that was agreed in late 2008, shortly after the country’s three main banks failed. Iceland also instituted capital controls such that capital could not fly out of the country, [as it happened in the case of Greece, and which the ECB did nothing to stem]. Furthermore, the tax increases that you refer to, or other restrictive fiscal measures were not instituted in the first year and then the greater part of the 2nd. Most importantly, it required no taxpayer shouldering of private sector bank losses, instead the criminally complicit bankers were swiftly gaoled.

    There is no reason why Greece could not have adopted the Icelandic model. Again that is not what I advocate, but do insist that Germany/Netherlands/France/Finland do the mutually benefical thing for their Euro bretheren.

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  80. Catiline says:
    @Olorin
    I'm no fan of global banksterism as it exists specifically to prey on genetically predisposed-to-fail populations. (Biologically speaking, that may be unavoidable.)

    On the other hand, the idea that genetically predisposed-to-fail populations can be expected to sustain modern nations or societies is pretty well discredited by now. This is worth considering, for the uninitiated or those who have been hostile to "HBD":

    https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/the-iq-breaking-point-how-civilized-society-is-maintained-or-lost/

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

    So the question becomes what to do with them if incapable of something more complex...but wanting all the fruits of that merely for existing. Like teenagers who want to be free of Dad's authority, but still want him picking up the credit card bills at the end of the month, no questions asked.

    National-scale pension funds are modern instruments of finance. A population whose behaviors are disposed to laziness, corruption, and nepotism are going to find it difficult or impossible to use or maintain such instruments. For starters, everybody's going to want to retire at 50 to a lifetime of gimme gimme and ouzo on the beach.

    This isn't a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It's a population-scale genetics matter. I'm of the view that it's beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems. A naivete that Brussels/EU seems to share.

    A 110% Americano.

    Read More
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  81. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    When you take out a loan, the terms of repayment are in monetary terms, and you have to repay out of income or sell off assets to raise cash to repay. This is not a novel concept. Even when a company or person declares bankruptcy, they have to liquidate assets to try to raise funds to pay back creditors.

    What you're saying is that if people knew in advance that they had to actually repay the loans, they would have never taken out the loans in the first place. That may be the case, but that's not a legitimate excuse for stiffing people.

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I'm not sure why you're talking about "Wall St."

    You know what loan-sharking is so stop pretending you don’t.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Loan sharking means charging extremely high interest rates. I don't see how it's relevant here.
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  82. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    When you take out a loan, the terms of repayment are in monetary terms, and you have to repay out of income or sell off assets to raise cash to repay. This is not a novel concept. Even when a company or person declares bankruptcy, they have to liquidate assets to try to raise funds to pay back creditors.

    What you're saying is that if people knew in advance that they had to actually repay the loans, they would have never taken out the loans in the first place. That may be the case, but that's not a legitimate excuse for stiffing people.

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I'm not sure why you're talking about "Wall St."

    Forgot a bit

    There are German, French, and other European banks involved here, so I’m not sure why you’re talking about “Wall St.”

    Wall St banks and Greek politicians cooked the books that let Greece into the Euro.

    Those Greek politicians went to work for Wall St banks afterwards.

    Years later when the debt bomb exploded Wall St banks are in charge of the asset stripping.

    (There are Euro banks involved as well of course – the central banking mafia are international – but the heart of darkness was London but is now Wall St.)

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  83. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    If Greece didn't pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone, interest rates for Greeks and Greek companies would skyrocket, Greece would be starved of Euros, and Greek assets would collapse. Euro holders would be able to come in and snap up Greek assets at firesale prices.

    Or Greece could not pay back and leave the Eurozone and return to the drachma, which would be very cheap and which would cause the Greek standard of living to collapse and make Euro and other goods very expensive. Greece would then have to depend on being a cheap labor, vacation, and asset destination.

    In other words, not repaying would not necessarily be much different or better.

    If Greece didn’t pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone…

    1. The banking mafia are loaning out “money” that doesn’t exist and then charging interest on it.

    2. You’re assuming the system isn’t organised crime.

    The banking mafia *know* they loan-sharked Greece so under normal conditions they’d just squawk in public but shrug their shoulders in private and count how much they made charging interest on nothing.

    It’s a bit different now because the entire banking system is so fragile because of what crooks they are but if they can make a profit lending money to Greece – that the Greeks can repay – then they will.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Banks create money. That's not a crime nor is it controversial.

    It's not clear what exactly your point is. If you think banks should not exist and people should not be able to lend and borrow money, you should just say so.
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  84. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Olorin
    I'm no fan of global banksterism as it exists specifically to prey on genetically predisposed-to-fail populations. (Biologically speaking, that may be unavoidable.)

    On the other hand, the idea that genetically predisposed-to-fail populations can be expected to sustain modern nations or societies is pretty well discredited by now. This is worth considering, for the uninitiated or those who have been hostile to "HBD":

    https://staffanspersonalityblog.wordpress.com/2013/09/24/the-iq-breaking-point-how-civilized-society-is-maintained-or-lost/

    http://www.lagriffedulion.f2s.com/sft.htm

    So the question becomes what to do with them if incapable of something more complex...but wanting all the fruits of that merely for existing. Like teenagers who want to be free of Dad's authority, but still want him picking up the credit card bills at the end of the month, no questions asked.

    National-scale pension funds are modern instruments of finance. A population whose behaviors are disposed to laziness, corruption, and nepotism are going to find it difficult or impossible to use or maintain such instruments. For starters, everybody's going to want to retire at 50 to a lifetime of gimme gimme and ouzo on the beach.

    This isn't a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It's a population-scale genetics matter. I'm of the view that it's beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems. A naivete that Brussels/EU seems to share.

    This isn’t a question of hating Greeks, or IMF sucking, or whatever. It’s a population-scale genetics matter. I’m of the view that it’s beyond naive to expect a global (or regional) currency regime to solve all the problems.

    Yes, the productivity gap between diff countries in the Euro is too big but that’s separate from banks lending money they *knew* could never be repaid because they also knew they could asset strip far more than the loans’ value when the loans went bad.

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  85. anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Anonymous
    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis to impose austerity and hike taxes. It also applied for membership to the EU, which made it easier for it to borrow money in the wake of the crisis.

    Greece doesn't have the latter option, as it's already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks.

    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis

    Iceland put their local banking mafia in jail.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    But they subordinated themselves to the IMF and EU banking mafia.
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  86. Sam Shama says:
    @Anonymous
    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis to impose austerity and hike taxes. It also applied for membership to the EU, which made it easier for it to borrow money in the wake of the crisis.

    Greece doesn't have the latter option, as it's already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks.

    [Greece doesn’t have the latter option, as it’s already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks]

    In other words, for them to pursue the Icelandic path, Greece requires its own currency, instead of which, it is held hostage [much like the Gold Standard] by the Euro, which is the de facto fiat of Germany.

    Put differently, Greece is borrowing in a foreign currency, which by the reason of its extended undervaluation over decades, was the principal factor for Germany’s wirtschaftswunder. So having benefited from the mercantile economy, accumulating trade and current account surpluses on the back of weak peripherals it [the troika] now insists that the Greek people be subjected to enormous wage devaluations and additional taxation to boot.

    One might ask the question, why does Germany and France, the principals behind the common currency, insist on Greece not exiting? [mind you I am not advocating it, only that they should release their surplus, extinguish Greek debt [innumerable historical precedents e.g. all the way back from Roman times to the present, when Caesar wrote off Helvetian and Gaulish debt] and thus create a much more balanced Eurozone, one that does not require these crises to clear imbalances].

    The answer to the preceding question is self-evident; were the Greeks, the Portuguese, the Spanish to exit and re-introduce their own currencies, they would in turn perhaps suffer a bout of high inflation [like Iceland] but emerge after a period [of 6 months to a year] very much rehabilitated. The effect on the Euro would be unquestionably appreciative, perhaps 50% or more according to some estimates, thus rendering German exports prohibitively expensive, and therein lies the commercial rub which Germans will not countenance. Yet the mutually beneficial solution is also clear, as I jotted parenthetically in the last paragraph.

    Iceland did receive a package worth $2.1 billion that was agreed in late 2008, shortly after the country’s three main banks failed. Iceland also instituted capital controls such that capital could not fly out of the country, [as it happened in the case of Greece, and which the ECB did nothing to stem]. Furthermore, the tax increases that you refer to, or other restrictive fiscal measures were not instituted in the first year and then the greater part of the 2nd. Most importantly, it required no taxpayer shouldering of private sector bank losses, instead the criminally complicit bankers were swiftly gaoled.

    There is no reason why Greece could not have adopted the Icelandic model. Again that is not what I advocate, but do insist that Germany/Netherlands/France/Finland do the mutually benefical thing for their Euro bretheren.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Yes, Greece would have to go back to the drachma, and that would probably be the most sensible thing. But all the bad things discussed above would remain. The drachma and Greek economy would be very weak, and pensions and the standard of living for Greeks would decline. European imports would be more expensive, and Greece's economy does not produce many things, especially industrial goods. It would go back to being a cheap tourist destination, and probably sell off assets to foreign investors for hard currency. Many Greeks would emigrate.
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  87. Catiline says:
    @utu
    Israel doesn't pay back any loans. Are Israelis predisposed to this behavior genetically? Or in this case are the lenders genetically predisposed to not demand the payments from Israel?

    No answer from Olorin.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    Olorin's post was not really coherent. I've just reread it.
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  88. utu says:
    @Catiline
    No answer from Olorin.

    Olorin’s post was not really coherent. I’ve just reread it.

    Read More
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  89. Bill B. says:
    @annamaria
    "...and Goldman Sachs is in charge of the privatization."

    Gangsterism by the finest; everything in the name of neo-Feudal "purity."

    "When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators. When ELAS-EAM held a huge demonstration in Athens, police opened fire and killed 28 people. The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members, who once again took up arms as a resistance movement. In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. The U.S. role in supporting an incompetent fascist government in Greece was enshrined in the "Truman Doctrine," seen by many historians as the beginning of the Cold War."
    http://www.alternet.org/world/35-countries-where-us-has-supported-fascists-druglords-and-terrorists

    Erm … where on earth did the British get the idea that communist movements, especially ones beholden to Moscow, would not be entirely benign and beneficial? A mystery.

    Read More
    • Replies: @annamaria
    Sure

    "When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators... The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members...In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. "

    Never again, indeed.

    And look how handy the Ukrainian neo-Nazis have been in a proxy US/RF war on the Russian borders. As a side comment: the ziocons happened to be extraordinary flexible when their interests could be furthered by the neo-Nazis (Ukraine) and by jihadis of ISIS (Syria).
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/nuland-and-her-ukraine-friends.jpg
    http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2015/12/israel-supports-isis.html
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  90. annamaria says:
    @Bill B.
    Erm ... where on earth did the British get the idea that communist movements, especially ones beholden to Moscow, would not be entirely benign and beneficial? A mystery.

    Sure

    “When British forces landed in Greece in October 1944, they found the country under the effective control of ELAS-EAM, the leftist partisan group formed by the Greek Communist Party in 1941 after the Italian and German invasion. ELAS-EAM welcomed the British forces, but the British refused any accommodation with them and installed a government that included royalists and Nazi collaborators… The British recruited members of the Nazi-trained Security Battalions to hunt down and arrest ELAS members…In 1947, with a civil war raging, the bankrupt British asked the U.S. to take over their role in occupied Greece. ”

    Never again, indeed.

    And look how handy the Ukrainian neo-Nazis have been in a proxy US/RF war on the Russian borders. As a side comment: the ziocons happened to be extraordinary flexible when their interests could be furthered by the neo-Nazis (Ukraine) and by jihadis of ISIS (Syria).
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-u-s-has-installed-a-neo-nazi-government-in-ukraine/5371554

    http://sjlendman.blogspot.com/2015/12/israel-supports-isis.html

    Read More
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  91. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon
    You know what loan-sharking is so stop pretending you don't.

    Loan sharking means charging extremely high interest rates. I don’t see how it’s relevant here.

    Read More
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  92. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon

    If Greece didn’t pay back at all and stayed in the Eurozone...
     
    1. The banking mafia are loaning out "money" that doesn't exist and then charging interest on it.

    2. You're assuming the system isn't organised crime.

    The banking mafia *know* they loan-sharked Greece so under normal conditions they'd just squawk in public but shrug their shoulders in private and count how much they made charging interest on nothing.

    It's a bit different now because the entire banking system is so fragile because of what crooks they are but if they can make a profit lending money to Greece - that the Greeks can repay - then they will.

    Banks create money. That’s not a crime nor is it controversial.

    It’s not clear what exactly your point is. If you think banks should not exist and people should not be able to lend and borrow money, you should just say so.

    Read More
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  93. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @anon

    Iceland followed the IMF recommendations following its financial crisis
     
    Iceland put their local banking mafia in jail.

    But they subordinated themselves to the IMF and EU banking mafia.

    Read More
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  94. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Sam Shama

    [Greece doesn’t have the latter option, as it’s already a member of the EU. If it wants to borrow more money it has to pay higher rates and or sell off assets. The former would lower the standard of living of Greeks]
     
    In other words, for them to pursue the Icelandic path, Greece requires its own currency, instead of which, it is held hostage [much like the Gold Standard] by the Euro, which is the de facto fiat of Germany.

    Put differently, Greece is borrowing in a foreign currency, which by the reason of its extended undervaluation over decades, was the principal factor for Germany's wirtschaftswunder. So having benefited from the mercantile economy, accumulating trade and current account surpluses on the back of weak peripherals it [the troika] now insists that the Greek people be subjected to enormous wage devaluations and additional taxation to boot.

    One might ask the question, why does Germany and France, the principals behind the common currency, insist on Greece not exiting? [mind you I am not advocating it, only that they should release their surplus, extinguish Greek debt [innumerable historical precedents e.g. all the way back from Roman times to the present, when Caesar wrote off Helvetian and Gaulish debt] and thus create a much more balanced Eurozone, one that does not require these crises to clear imbalances].

    The answer to the preceding question is self-evident; were the Greeks, the Portuguese, the Spanish to exit and re-introduce their own currencies, they would in turn perhaps suffer a bout of high inflation [like Iceland] but emerge after a period [of 6 months to a year] very much rehabilitated. The effect on the Euro would be unquestionably appreciative, perhaps 50% or more according to some estimates, thus rendering German exports prohibitively expensive, and therein lies the commercial rub which Germans will not countenance. Yet the mutually beneficial solution is also clear, as I jotted parenthetically in the last paragraph.


    Iceland did receive a package worth $2.1 billion that was agreed in late 2008, shortly after the country’s three main banks failed. Iceland also instituted capital controls such that capital could not fly out of the country, [as it happened in the case of Greece, and which the ECB did nothing to stem]. Furthermore, the tax increases that you refer to, or other restrictive fiscal measures were not instituted in the first year and then the greater part of the 2nd. Most importantly, it required no taxpayer shouldering of private sector bank losses, instead the criminally complicit bankers were swiftly gaoled.

    There is no reason why Greece could not have adopted the Icelandic model. Again that is not what I advocate, but do insist that Germany/Netherlands/France/Finland do the mutually benefical thing for their Euro bretheren.

    Yes, Greece would have to go back to the drachma, and that would probably be the most sensible thing. But all the bad things discussed above would remain. The drachma and Greek economy would be very weak, and pensions and the standard of living for Greeks would decline. European imports would be more expensive, and Greece’s economy does not produce many things, especially industrial goods. It would go back to being a cheap tourist destination, and probably sell off assets to foreign investors for hard currency. Many Greeks would emigrate.

    Read More
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  95. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Why don’t the Greeks just treat the bankers, the bankers representatives and their apparatchiks the same way that the population of Greece treated the Nazi occupiers?
    Passive or militant resistance, refusal to cooperate and if needed, civil disobedience? Workshops to inform Greeks what is happening and why, who is behind it and how to resist in their daily activities. Sit down strikes, lockouts and other industrial and service sector actions could paralyze any attempt to transfer wealth of Greeks to the E.U. Also, physical actions like bankers or EU representatives tires slashed, houses cut off from utilities, some unpleasantness in the streets etc.
    No real violence thought, that would be counterproductive.

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  96. Delmas says:
    @artichoke
    Tsipras certainly qualifies as lacking integrity.

    Didn't Goldman do some deals with an earlier Greek government that, right after, immediately went the creditors' way, and they got a bunch options that went way in the money? I seem to recall that's how Greece got reduced to a financial beggar.

    In Marc Roch’s book Goldman Sachs la banque qui dirige le monde, he explains how an executive vice president from Goldman working on a contract for the EU, helped occult Greece’s public accounting so that they could qualify for the Euro zone. Addie Lioubiadis sponsored Greece’s entry into the Euro zone. This was during Papendreou’s government. Papendreou was not born in Greece. He was a Greek American. We don’t hear a lot about him these days.

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