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Obscured American: Helen the Writer and Aspiring Prepper
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Chicago, 2012
Chicago, 2012

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Millions of Americans still have ties to their ancestral country. Two years ago, I met an 54-year-old man who would periodically visit his family home in Abruzzo. Its grape vines and olive trees had been sold a long time ago, and the house itself was little more than a husk, thanks to thieves, “Locals, not gypsies, have broken in to steal just about everything. Each time they see me, they shout, ‘Ecco l’americano!’ They ask all kinds of questions about this country. I love Italy, but I love America more. Everything is better here. Everything.” Despite all that, he still owned the house, so Italy still held him.

My friend, Nguyen Qui Duc, had a successful career in radio broadcasting. He worked for the BBC and NPR. In his mid 40’s, however, Duc decided to move back to Vietnam. Now, he owns two houses and three businesses there, including a Hanoi bar, Tadioto, that has been featured in TIME Magazine, the New York Times and on CNN, etc. When I saw Duc a month ago, he was happy and relaxed, so it’s safe to say he won’t head back this way.

In Hanoi, I met several Vietnamese-Americans, including Helen, a 33-year-old Chicago native who had been living in Vietnam for three years. She told me about her ordeals in Vietnamese public hospitals, where you must tip each nurse and doctor to get decent treatment. Used to American standards, Helen had no idea.

My father is a very traditional Vietnamese man. He was born in the 30’s. He also had a really strange life, because he was an orphan. His parents both died when he was eight or nine.

His father’s body was never recovered because he died on a mountain in a landslide caused by Japanese bombings. His mother’s body was never found because she was on a train that was bombed by the Japanese. The last time he saw his mother, she came by the pho stand where he worked and they hugged, then she got on a train.

So, he grew up alone, and his whole goal was to have a family. He thinks a lot of security comes from family because he didn’t have it. He married my mother because she was, you know, a hot, traditional Vietnamese woman, and I think later in life, he realized that maybe you should get married to people for other reasons. They’re still together though.

My father doesn’t talk about it very much, but he was a part of the South Vietnamese Army. He didn’t see combat. He worked in logistics. He also taught English to other Vietnamese people because he had studied English at university. After his parents died, my father decided to become a poet and changed his name to Văn Sơn [Literature Mountain].

He was an extremely handsome young man and would juggle five to seven girlfriends at a time. I like the story of his first love: he was tutoring a beautiful rich girl who was a few years younger. They’d leave each other love notes in the tree outside her gate. One day, he went to go pick up the love note and it was a letter from her parents, informing him that they’d shipped her away to France and that they’d never accept a penniless orphan as a son-in-law.

In fact, I think of this often because I don’t think I’d exist had there not been an exodus in 1975. Given the class distinctions, my parents would have never met. There was a big class difference between them. I think it was a big chip on his shoulder. He was like a Charles Dickens orphan or whatever.

My mother’s family has been, I think, always connected to the government, under the French, and before that, mandarins in the imperial government, way back. They were always very wealthy. My grandmother lived in the Old Quarter of Hanoi and her family owned a fish sauce operation. During World War II, my grandmother told me that people were starving, pushing dead bodies in carts on the streets. Her family made congee for everyone on the block.

In 1954, my mother was a year old when her parents decided to move to Saigon. They got into a car accident and flipped off the mountain road into a river. French soldiers heard her crying and helped them out. Everyone survived.

In the years leading up to 1975, my mother had been set up with the sons of rich families by matchmakers. She tells me that she didn’t like any of them and would botch the tea ceremony to make herself look like an unacceptable candidate for daughter-in-law.

On April 30th, 1975, my father left on a helicopter from the US Embassy in Saigon, thanks to an American friend of his. My mother’s family boarded a boat after a harrowing drive through the city, all 10 of them crammed into their luxury vehicle. She was narrowly missed by bullets on the boat. My parents met on Wake Island in the South Pacific, and then they met again in Chicago at a mah jong and pho party on Argyle Street. At the time, my mother’s family was living in Milwaukee.

She was 22 when she came to the US. My father is much older. They’re about 20 years apart. They were married a year or two later. My mother moved from Milwaukee to the West Side of Chicago. She was terrified by all of the gunshots from gang wars in the 1970s, so my father moved them over to Elmwood Park, a suburb. They opened a restaurant. It started out as a hot dog stand in Oak Park, but my father thought, because he had learned how to make pho as a kid, “Why don’t we switch over to Vietnamese food?” It was one of the first Vietnamese restaurants in Chicagoland.

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The Vietnamese community in Chicago loves my mother’s food. She once sold 2,000 eggrolls at $1 a piece to pay for my braces. She’s the type of person who can identify every ingredient in a dish blind-folded and she can also recreate most dishes after tasting them once.

Growing up, I felt like my mother wasn’t the type of girl I would have been friends with. She was like a really hot, rich girl. I mean, she’s a kind person, but there are things she didn’t have to think about when she was growing up. She grew up rich, I grew up poor, so I didn’t connect with her very much when I was a teenager.

So, she grew up very, you know, in her own bubble, in her own wealthy bubble, and even when they moved to Saigon, she lived in a mansion of some sort. They employed a professional chef in the kitchen, someone who had mastered Vietnamese, Chinese and French cuisine. When I talked to her about what had happened during the war, she said she didn’t really experience much of it because she lived in a bubble and went to a private school.

When there are issues to solve, financial issues or whatever, my brother, father and I will jump on and try to figure out what to do, and she’s like, “Everything will work out!” She’s very optimistic in this way that, like, only rich people are, you know? Her big thing is, she really does believe in America. She’s like, “Well, you show up, you work hard, you help people, people help you and everything will be OK.” I think maybe, in some ways, it actually does get her far, like she has a lot of friends from different walks of life. She’s a social worker in non-profit. She’s a really caring and smart person.

My mother scrubbed toilets in a bowling alley, actually, her first year in the US. Then, after she moved to Chicago, she worked for a while for this travel agency run by Japanese Americans, which was really cool. They were old Japanese Americans, who had been interned, so they were really, like, for me, the first non-Vietnamese, Asian Americans I met as a kid.

The restaurant eventually went out of business, and my parents had to declare bankruptcy. My father got a job teaching ESL to new Vietnamese refugees. My mother spent most of the 90’s helping other Vietnamese who were new to the US, as a translator, and there was a lot corruption at that time, like older Vietnamese refugees would try to charge newer refugees a lot of money for services. There were guys who were like, “If you want me to drive you to the health department or welfare office, you’ll have to pay me a hundred bucks!” It’s like, “If you want me to translate this for you, if you want me to help you get your benefits.” My mother was the only one, she told me, who was doing everything pro bono.

She wasn’t around a lot when I was a kid, because she was out helping the other families. She had a lot of, like, I want to give back mentality. She’s a very kind and generous person. In some ways, she’s kind of naïve, maybe. I think I’m a lot more cynical.

Yeah, there was always a struggle with money. It was OK, we managed, but in my early 20’s, my parents were losing their house because of the housing crisis, so they kind of guilt tripped me into buying them a house. They were like, “We’re going to lose our house, but this is what we’re going to do. Since you have a job, and you have really good credit, since you’re, like, 23 and you haven’t fucked your credit up, why don’t you find a loan and we’ll pay the mortgage, right?”

I spent most of my 20’s as a homeowner, but I didn’t even live in the house. It was a subprime, 30-year mortgage. I was 23 and making $18,000 a year, working in a non-profit. So I got a mortgage at 23, which is absurd.

Eventually, my parents couldn’t pay the mortgage, so I had to pay most of it. When I was 29, I decided I couldn’t do it anymore, because I had spent most of my 20’s working and paying for this house, in the middle of nowhere, one of those weird new developments in a cornfield. I was like, “I’m going to get rid of this house, you guys have to figure something out, and I’m also moving to Vietnam. I’m done.” So my credit was so fucked, I couldn’t even, like, get an apartment. I couldn’t get a credit card. I couldn’t do anything.

It did cause a tension between me and my parents, but over the years, it has worked itself out. I think they realized that it was a big financial strain, but this is a part of, like, the whole thing where my mother just doesn’t understand how money should work, and my father was a little bit, like, OK, she’s very demanding and whatever, so he kind of went along with it.

I was working for a non-profit in Chicago, an alternative education program for students who are wards of the state. I worked with teenagers who had re-enrolled into alternative high schools after being expelled. Some students were homeless, and we had educational programming for them to get their HS diploma.

One of the students I worked with, Laquan McDonald, was killed by the police in October, 2014. You know, when you work in communities for a while, it’s kind of hard, it’s really draining, and although it was work that was, in many ways, rewarding, I felt I didn’t have any energy to do anything for myself. I wanted to write, and figure out what I wanted to do next. I did feel a little bit trapped.

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I didn’t really get a chance in my 20’s to, like, explore what I wanted to do. Maybe I wanted to go back to school or do something else, travel. I was working basically from the time I was out of college until I was 31, and then I sold the house. When the house was sold, I felt like I was untethered, so I could move forward and do what I wanted, so I decided just to move to Vietnam. It’s cheaper to live here, you know?

It is the ancestral home, yeah. I felt I had enough Vietnamese to get by, that wasn’t really a concern. My Vietnamese has certainly improved since I’ve been here. You know, I can get what I want, talk to the landlady and have interesting conversations with people every now and then.

To me, it seems like there is a lack of diversity of thought here. I realize that people are educated in a single system, you know, a single party government, so it’s, like, not encouraged to debate. You memorize stuff. I taught two kids when I first got here, and there was no space for thinking outside what you’re told to think. You can tell many people are unhappy, but no one says much about it. It’s, like, they’re resigned. This is just the way it is.

That’s hard for me, because I was coming from a place where my work was actively trying to change policies in education. I started a student activism group before I left. It’s hard to come from a place where you think you can make a difference. Maybe it’s just an illusion that you can change things, if you try hard enough, but here, it doesn’t feel like there’s much trying to change stuff, you know?

The gender thing is really tough here. You know, women my age are married with four or five kids, so it’s already weird that I’m unmarried and I’m here writing a sci-fi novel. They think it’s weird that I would leave my family abroad. I get annoying questions all the time.

When people here meet me for the first time, it’s always the same questions. I get annoyed, because most conversations seem to go the same way. It’s not them – they’re meeting me for the first time, but for me, it’s always the same – Where’s your husband? Why are you not married? Is there something wrong with you?

Being here has made me feel more American than anything. You know, I never felt very traditional Vietnamese. I feel like in the US, you’re kind of put in a corner, because of the racism. Here, I feel so American. I disagree with everything, and I feel OK saying it, but it’s not OK to say stuff, so that’s really tough.

Body stuff. You’re supposed to be, like, 60 pounds, and you wear, like, white face makeup. I don’t do any of that, you know. There’s a whole beauty thing here where women want to whiten their skin. It’s like a look that you’re supposed to have. It’s sort of a status thing. I have a friend here who’s an accountant. She was told that she was too fat, so she had to lose weight or she’d lose her job.

The craziest thing that happened to me, though, was that a friend of mine, a white American guy, got this lead on a job where you record the voiceover for an English textbook. They were like, “Oh, we need a woman, an American woman,” so he’s like, “OK, I’ll bring my friend.”

When I got there, they were like, “Oh, we need an American!” He’s like, “She is an American.” “No, she’s not. She’s Vietnamese.” I was like, “Wait. I’m not Vietnamese. You’re looking at my passport,” and we got into this long argument, like a two-hour argument, that was mixed with Vietnamese.

I was like, “I’m not Vietnamese. Like, I wasn’t born here. I wasn’t raised here. I don’t speak Vietnamese very well, anyway. My mother tongue is really, at this point, English. And I was an English major in college. I did the voice over for the Vietnam Women’s Museum, in English. Like, I can record your shitty textbook, for three hours! I can read basic English!”

They were like, “No, no, we can’t. We can’t hire you.”

She started doing this thing when she was challenged, “Well, the thing is we need people whose grandparents were American.” And my friend was like, “My grandpa was in fuckin’ Auschwitz! He’s not American! I’m just white, right? If you want a white person, just put it in the job description.”

They were like, “No, no, it’s not about race. It’s not about discrimination. It’s just whether or not you’re American!”

I was like, “What is American? Sitting Bull is dead. English isn’t native to the US, you know.”

Oh my God, it was so fucked up. The conversation was absurd. Everything I said, she would come up with a new reason that I wasn’t an American. It was like every reason that you could think of, that like a birther in the US would come up with. Oh, no, no, no, I need to see your passport! I need to see your birth certificate!

The final thing was, “You have an Asian accent, so I can’t hire you.”

I was like, “You are the first person in the universe to ever tell me I have a quote, unquote Asian accent.” I sound like a fuckin’ Midwesterner.

In Chicago, in my twenties, we’d go to punk houses and, you know, they were rundown spaces where you would go see bands play and hang out with your friends. I really thought that would have prepared me for whatever was going to come my way in SE Asia, and I mean like, you know, needles on the floor and shit on the ground. Like human feces.

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In Vietnam, sometimes, yeah, there’d be bits of shit floating. There have been bathrooms where there was, like, an inch of water, and there’d be, like, shit in there. Everything is covered in water. I guess I haven’t gotten used to it. Like, I’ve never seen a bathroom that has not been moist. I go to Tokyo and the bathroom is super clean, and you can piss in a convenience store in Tokyo and know you’re not going to get sick.

I went to the hospital after I had a motorbike crash, and there were doctors playing cards. This was like three in the morning, and they were like, “Hang on a second. I’ve got to play this hand,” and I’m like actually bleeding, like hemorrhaging, from my mouth.

They were like, “Fill out these forms,” and I’m like, “I can’t write on your paper because there’s blood falling from my mouth.” And they were like, “OK, let me take your X-ray,” and all the hospital lights were off, you know, because they were conserving energy.

The nurse got lost on the way to the X-ray, and then at the X-ray, I’m like, “Where is the jacket thing you’re supposed to put on me so that I don’t get, you know, poisoned by the radiation?”

She’s like, “You don’t need that.”

No, I want the thing,” so I told her to go find it.

You know, you have to share hospital beds, so they put me in a room with, like, a bunch of old grannies, and the grannies were really mad at me because I didn’t take off my shoes. You’re supposed to take off your shoes. I’m like, “I’m not going to take off my fuckin’ shoes!” The floor was really filthy. I’m already bleeding, and I’m not going to take off my shoes.

My friend picked me up and took me home. They were like, “She’s fine. Just give her some cotton.” The next day, it started bleeding again, and my friend took me to the hospital again, and they were like, “Oh, we can’t treat you. You should have gotten stitches last night. Now, you’re infected, and we can’t treat you. We’re not responsible for that. Go to this other hospital.”

The first hospital they sent me to, there was a gang fight outside, so it was a mob fight, OK? Inside, there was a guy screaming on a bed because he had been thrown through a window, and they were pulling glass out of his back, and they were like, “We can’t treat you. You’ve got to go somewhere else.”

So they sent us to another hospital, and at that hospital, everyone was sleeping, and the nurses, when they saw me, they were like, “Argh! Ewww! Like, this is so gross!” Finally, the doctor did give me stitches, and it’s fine. Everything is fine.

This is why I’m writing sci-fi. It actually came out of my accident, that I’m working on this sci-fi novel.

Recently I took a friend to a hospital, and they sent him to this other hospital that was far outside the city. It looks like an evil villain’s high-tech facility growing out of the rice paddies. Taxi drivers were fishing in the stream out front. Inside, all the lights were off and not a single person to be found for six floors. It’s like the zombie apocalypse, like everyone’s dead.

Finally, upstairs, I found a nurse who was sitting in the middle of the hallway transferring blood between two bags, spilling it everywhere. This blood cocktail sat on the ground for six hours, I timed it. When they mopped the floors, they used ONLY detergent and no water, so when you walked down the hallway your feet slid all over the soapy film.

The nurses told me I should learn to change my friend’s needle and drip when the medicine ran out because they might be busy. I said no.

They’re like, “Oh well, so here’s your room. You have to make your own bed.” Then, they give you an appointment where you have to go down yourself to get your X-ray. No one takes you anywhere. No one tells you anything. It’s really sad. I guess no one gets paid enough to do stuff.

When I got in a taxi to go home, the driver fucked with the meter and I ended up paying 3x the amount. I was like, “You just picked someone up at a hospital where I was with this sick person for, like, ten hours. Why are you trying to fuck me right now? Like, go do that to a tourist somewhere. Why are you doing that at a hospital?”

He did that thing where he lowered his head in shame but nevertheless demanded the money. It’s really depressing.

Well, I’ve stayed because I had to heal from my accident. Another part is that it’s very cheap to live here, so you get a lot of free time to do stuff. I’ve traveled a lot. I’ve been to every Southeast Asian country except for the Philippines and, I think, Laos. I’ve been everywhere else, in three years, and that’s working on a salary that’s, like, you know, a third of what I used to make.

I’ve been able to travel, paid for surgery and dental work, and, like, travel every other month. Outside of Southeast Asia, I’ve been to Japan and Hong Kong. It’s been really amazing. I don’t know of a situation where I could have done that, any other way.

Before this, I wasn’t a big traveler. I would visit friends around the States, New York, LA, San Francisco, you know, different cities in the States. I went to Europe a few times, Germany and France and, like, Hungary.

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I didn’t have preconceived ideas about what this part of Asia was like, so I’d just show up in places. I usually don’t do very much research before going to a new place, and I try not to do very touristy things. I show up and just wander around, and kind of hang out in places, so I haven’t seen many, like, major sites, but I’ve been to cities and hung out with different people. I’ve been in nature, jungle areas and stayed in home stays, that kind of thing, just hung out with people and talked, and it has been really cool. Like, you get a really good sense of how life happens in many different ways, you know. It’s very different from the American way of life, and what you’re told in the US, too, I think.

Asia is the future. I flew into Hong Kong last June, on a transfer to New York. Hong Kong Airport is phenomenal, a beautiful building, and I showed up in JFK, and, like, it’s a shithole. There are so many parts where you can see that the US is in decline, and there are parts of Asia that are building up, like Singapore, Hong Kong and Japan. You go to places in some parts of Asia, and you’re like, “Oh, these are functional, efficient cities with very new, you know, advanced infrastructure. And the US very much feels like old, 20th century. It feels behind.”

I think the US is too insular. It hasn’t had to… It’s like when you’re the popular kid in high school, who has the whole world going for you, and you don’t have to do a whole lot of work. You know, like you think you’re really awesome? The nerds work a little bit harder.

I think Asia has been trying to catch up, I think. It comes at a cost, but you see a lot of beautiful new buildings and, you know, access to a lot of things… You can get anything here. Like, I had an incredible Italian meal in Cambodia, you know, so it’s not not diverse.

When you have to work a little harder to catch up to the Western world, and you still have a lot of ground to build on, things are just fresher and newer, whereas it doesn’t seem to me like the US sees a need to change or grow. I haven’t been to Europe in, like, ten years, but it doesn’t sound great there right now.

If you don’t travel here, I don’t think you know what’s available here, like Bangkok has a really amazing public train system. It’s very fast. It’s very clean. It’s incredible. Then you go to New York, and you’re, like, in this shitty subway that was built in the 19th century, that got flooded during a hurricane. I mean, there are monsoons here. I just think that the American infrastructure is just old, and people don’t invest in it because they don’t feel like they have to. It’s functional, so it’s OK.

Singapore is so beautiful and clean. People respect the space they’re in. I don’t feel like there’s very much of that in Vietnam, or, actually, in the US. I don’t want to bash Vietnam, because I think Vietnam has gone through a lot, and I enjoy a lot of things about being here. I don’t know how to put it, I guess everything feels like it’s very present. In that sense, it’s a charming place to be because everything is very much in the present, but there doesn’t seem to be long-term infrastructure for, you know, the future.

It doesn’t seem like people really care, like you can see that in the bathroom, for example, where it’s like, “You know what? I’m just going to dump this water here or piss on the toilet seat and not care about the person who comes after.”

It’s like, “I take what I can when I can take it,” and I understand why that’s the way it is, but it’s kind of depressing. You see it on the street. The other day, I saw someone hit someone else on a motorbike, and you don’t even stop to help someone because, basically, they’ll just try to milk you for money. That was advice someone gave me when I first got here – don’t stop for anyone. It’s like, “Oh, you’re the one who hit me,” if you stop to help someone. Most people, their immediate instinct is to help someone up, but if you do that here, if you have that instinct, then you’re kind of fucked over.

I don’t feel like a hatred, but it makes me kind of depressed, actually, like I just get depressed a lot here. So you just get to see people at their most present, in a way. We already know that people are really selfish, and self-preservation is really important, so you just see it more so here, because there’s no padding, you know? Of course, I’ve also experienced moments of kindness.

I miss the US’s diversity of culture. I worked in mostly African-American and Latino communities before, in Chicago. I have friends that are from different places, different cultures, backgrounds, and here, in Vietnam, it’s very, for the most part, just Vietnamese. Still, I feel that there’s a lot of ignorance in the US. My motorbike taxi driver, during the hurricanes in Texas and Puerto Rico, asked me if I knew anyone there, and if everyone was OK? How are people dealing? Like, they read the news, and heard about it.

When there was flooding in Hoi An, or in northern parts of Vietnam, not a single person in the US asked me anything about it, like at all. It’s just not reported. Like, no one seems to care or pay attention to anything that happens in other parts of the world.

I actually turned off my Facebook newsfeed, so I’m out of the loop on what happens in the US these days. There have been a couple of shootings in the last few months, and, like, some guy in New York did something, I don’t actually know, but my friend mentioned it to me, and I was, like, “Stop! I honestly… I don’t care.” The US can do something about it, and they don’t.

It’s quite difficult being in your 30’s and making friends with Vietnamese people, because most of them have families and kids already, so I don’t meet many Vietnamese people my own age.

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As for the foreigners, you meet other Westerners, mostly, English speakers. I’ve made a few good friends who are foreigners like me, but beyond my small group of friends, I’m really disinterested in most of the other foreigners. Lately I’ve had horrible conversations with, like, just shitty, white European men, like this Belgian guy who actually said that, “King Leopold colonized Africa because all these savages were infighting anyway, so he saw an economic opportunity.”

I was like, “It’s 2017. Like, do you really believe that? Like you believe, quote, people were savages? You’re dehumanizing people, because you expect them to work on your fuckin’ rubber plantations for free.” This guy really thought of it as just an economic opportunity, but refused to acknowledge racism.

These are conversations with, like, white European men here, who are, like, you know, guys who live here because they can’t get fucked in their own country, and they’re, like, just fucking young Vietnamese women because they come off as wealthy white dudes, you know. It’s, like, look at your fuckin’ life, dude. You’re doing meth, teaching English to to 8-year-olds, and fucking, like, a 20-year-old when you’re 55, and you have no idea how history works. I mean, these conversations are just so horrible, and I’m like, I do want to go back to my bubble. I don’t want to talk to these guys. I don’t like them, you know, but these are the options, when you’re out with your friends.

I met a Marine from Texas recently, who broke down in tears. I mean, it was a really sad conversation. He came to Vietnam because, quote, “It’s easier to fuck chicks here,” so we were like, “All right, so what did you do before this?”

He was in Afghanistan, and he went because he was the best shooter in his high school in Texas. He was also on the track team, he was the fastest runner. He honestly doesn’t think women should be paid the same as men. Like, his mother has a PhD in bio something or other, like his father. They’re both PhDs in whatever science field, and he believes his father should be paid more than his mother. Also, he thinks women shouldn’t work. They should be mothers.

I usually don’t encounter people like that, in my community, in Chicago. I’m not saying I want to be closed off to other people, but it’s just like, these conversations are depressing. I’m like, “I understand why you feel this way, this is something you grew up in, but you really think your mother should be paid less? She has a PhD like your father. Don’t you think people with the same skill level should be paid the same?”

He was like, “No!” He also started crying and ran away. He felt like I was asking him difficult questions, and he had PTSD, so he, like, couldn’t deal with it, but I wasn’t talking about combat. I was talking about his mother getting paid the same amount as his father.

I’m leaving here in two months. I’m gonna hang out with friends on the West Coast for a month, then go back to Chicago in February.

I want a Chicago-style hot dog. I miss the cold. There’s no cold here. I miss fresh air. The pollution index here was 390, or something like that, out of 800. You’re dead if you walk outside and it’s 800. Chicago is like 50, so that gives you some scale. I’m going to live in Uptown, which is near Argyle Street, the Vietnamese area. It’s mostly an immigrant community. I’m going to live with my brother, actually, because my credit is so bad, with my house stuff, so I can’t actually rent an apartment.

I want to just be in a quiet place with clean air. I know that I have privilege, that I can leave, and I know that people are suffering here, but there’s nothing I can do about it because if you speak out here, you go to prison.

I actually think I’m going to learn how to shoot a gun, when I go back, and I’m actually serious about becoming a prepper. I actually see myself, like, starting a prepper colony with my friends, and just hoard dry and frozen goods, for the impending apocalypse! That’s actually, like, a long-term goal. Actually, I went to Eugene last summer, and they have a whole grocery store of prepper stuff. They have, you know, like beef chili and enchiladas, so there’s diversity in prepper cuisine.

Vietnamese are hoarders. I learn from the best. My mother is a hoarder, so she has a lot of stuff, but all of it is expired. I don’t know how spices expire but, you know, they do. She has a lot of stuff that expired, like, a long time ago, but she’s hanging on to it. She’s just working through losing everything, you know. She just wants all that padding around her. She wants all her stuff.

The sci-fi novel takes place in Hanoi, in the not-so-distant future, after a climate crisis. Southeast Asia has frozen over because geo engineers have kinda fucked with, like, weather systems. Instead of cooling the planet down, they’ve caused a big freeze, so people living in Hanoi are trying to survive in a frozen tundra.

I think it was Margaret Atwood who said that when she writes speculative fiction, she doesn’t need to do a lot imagining. She just looks at the past, the oppression and the cruelty, and applies what people have done before in a future setting. So really, it’s just Hanoi now, but frozen, you know. Resources are gone, people are being exploited for labor, that kind of thing. There are rebels and revolutions, maybe. It’s a stereotypical, derivative sci-fi.

Linh Dinh’s latest books are Postcards from the End of America (non-fiction) and A Mere Rica (poetry). He maintains a regularly updated photo blog.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: Vietnam, Vietnamese 
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  1. OMG! Guess I’m not moving to Vietnam after all. Or to Chicago either. But I already knew that!

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  2. Millions of Fake Americans still have ties to their ancestral country. FIFY

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  3. duncsbaby says:

    As usual an interesting Obscured American entry. I wonder what her views are on single payer health care for Americans. She seems pretty liberal but one hopes that her interactions w/ socialized medicine would convince her that it ain’t all that it’s cracked up to be. Funny how no-one mentions a place like Vietnam when one talks about the glories of socialism. I hope she is able to find a good guy w/a good job in America & doesn’t fritter away the rest of her life on fringe lifestyle crap like the prepper stuff. She’s certainly been hard-done by her parents. I wish her the best. Hopefully she doesn’t use Margaret Atwood as a ‘speculative fiction’ inspiration. Go for Philip K. Dick, he was a left-wing nut but he was fun to read.

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  4. 5371 says:

    Crazy female, very American.

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  5. geoff says:

    Poignant, sad, true and brilliant.

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  6. I feel embarrassed for Americans whenever I come back from Beijing or Shanghai or Hong Kong, and land in a place like JFK International. It’s looking more and more like something out of the Soviet Union these days.

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  7. Clyde says:

    Good one!!

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  8. bartok says:

    Helen has a new appreciation for high-trust civilizations like Singapore, Japan, USA built and maintained by nationalist patriarchies.

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.

    Read More
    • Agree: eah, Triumph104
    • Replies: @TheJester

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.
     
    Exactly my thoughts ... Helen seems to have drunk the "Kool-Aid" on the standard liberal, anti-natalist, feminist dystopia so popular in "hip" settings. Not surprisingly, Helen communicates the feeling of being the "victim" in everything she talks about, whether it is about her family, Chicago, Vietnam, or the prospect of a relationship with someone who is part of the White Male Patriarchy.

    Helen does appear to value the observable results of high-trust, beyond-kin societies such as those found in Singapore and Japan. However, without realizing it, her leftist, liberal politics with their committed to diversity and social relativism helps compromise the high-trust, beyond-kin societies that she now admires in those countries. Indeed, we used to have the latter society in the United States. It was admired, copied, and then called "The American Way of Life".

    It is not surprising that Helen believes the future is Asia. But Helen should perhaps have asked people in Singapore and Japan how they feel about diversity, racism, and feminism. Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.
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  9. republic says:

    When I got there, they were like, “Oh, we need an American!” He’s like, “She is an American.” “No, she’s not. She’s Vietnamese.” I was like, “Wait. I’m not Vietnamese. You’re looking at my passport,” and we got into this long argument, like a two-hour argument, that was mixed with Vietnamese.

    I was like, “I’m not Vietnamese. Like, I wasn’t born here. I wasn’t raised here. I don’t speak Vietnamese very well, anyway. My mother tongue is really, at this point, English. And I was an English major in college. I did the voice over for the Vietnam Women’s Museum, in English. Like, I can record your shitty textbook, for three hours! I can read basic English!”

    ———————-

    Until about 30 years ago It was clearly understood by everybody that American meant a white person.

    Those Vietnamese voice over people understood that she was not a real American

    ——
    Post could be summed up: Vietnamese–American SJW gets a reality check in Vietnam

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    • Agree: Delinquent Snail
    • Replies: @utu
    Exactly. Besides how could they verify that her English was w/o any accent? They were suspicious of her because they are suspicious of all Vietnamese - for a good reason.

    I would not be able to listen to this woman for so long. Fundamental lack of self-awareness. Pretty much all expats are losers.
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  10. I went to Eugene last summer, and they have a whole grocery store of prepper stuff. They have, you know, like beef chili and enchiladas, so there’s diversity in prepper cuisine.

    LOL

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  11. utu says:
    @republic
    When I got there, they were like, “Oh, we need an American!” He’s like, “She is an American.” “No, she’s not. She’s Vietnamese.” I was like, “Wait. I’m not Vietnamese. You’re looking at my passport,” and we got into this long argument, like a two-hour argument, that was mixed with Vietnamese.

    I was like, “I’m not Vietnamese. Like, I wasn’t born here. I wasn’t raised here. I don’t speak Vietnamese very well, anyway. My mother tongue is really, at this point, English. And I was an English major in college. I did the voice over for the Vietnam Women’s Museum, in English. Like, I can record your shitty textbook, for three hours! I can read basic English!”

    ----------------------

    Until about 30 years ago It was clearly understood by everybody that American meant a white person.

    Those Vietnamese voice over people understood that she was not a real American

    ------
    Post could be summed up: Vietnamese--American SJW gets a reality check in Vietnam

    Exactly. Besides how could they verify that her English was w/o any accent? They were suspicious of her because they are suspicious of all Vietnamese – for a good reason.

    I would not be able to listen to this woman for so long. Fundamental lack of self-awareness. Pretty much all expats are losers.

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  12. njguy73 says:

    Pretty much all expats are losers.

    I may be the grandson of immigrants, but I liked this line in Jonathan Franzen’s novel Freedom:

    “It wasn’t the people with sociable genes who fled the crowded Old World for the new continent; it was the people who didn’t get along well with others.”

    Read More
    • Agree: utu
    • Replies: @grapesoda
    Someone from New Jersey is calling other people losers? You do realize that New Jersey is laughed at openly by literally every other state in the Union right? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    Actually dividing people up into winners and losers is a very New Jersey-ish thing to do. I needed to dumb it down to that animalistic level to try to explain it to you though.
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  13. republic says:

    Interesting picture at the top of this story, located in a very high crime area, place looks cheap, but a one bedroom apartment two blocks away rents for $1800/mo. That chicken place is now closed.
    This street view was taken in September 2016.

    https://www.instantstreetview.com/@41.87638,-87.630689,271.74h,5p,1z

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  14. Commenters, and more importantly the Vietnamese themselves, have already addressed the issue of her not being American.

    I’ll point out that she’s fat.

    Body stuff. You’re supposed to be, like, 60 pounds, and you wear, like, white face makeup. I don’t do any of that, you know. There’s a whole beauty thing here where women want to whiten their skin. It’s like a look that you’re supposed to have. It’s sort of a status thing. I have a friend here who’s an accountant. She was told that she was too fat, so she had to lose weight or she’d lose her job.

    Hey, perhaps she’s American after all!

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  15. TheJester says:
    @bartok
    Helen has a new appreciation for high-trust civilizations like Singapore, Japan, USA built and maintained by nationalist patriarchies.

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.

    Exactly my thoughts … Helen seems to have drunk the “Kool-Aid” on the standard liberal, anti-natalist, feminist dystopia so popular in “hip” settings. Not surprisingly, Helen communicates the feeling of being the “victim” in everything she talks about, whether it is about her family, Chicago, Vietnam, or the prospect of a relationship with someone who is part of the White Male Patriarchy.

    Helen does appear to value the observable results of high-trust, beyond-kin societies such as those found in Singapore and Japan. However, without realizing it, her leftist, liberal politics with their committed to diversity and social relativism helps compromise the high-trust, beyond-kin societies that she now admires in those countries. Indeed, we used to have the latter society in the United States. It was admired, copied, and then called “The American Way of Life”.

    It is not surprising that Helen believes the future is Asia. But Helen should perhaps have asked people in Singapore and Japan how they feel about diversity, racism, and feminism. Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.

    Read More
    • Agree: Mark Green
    • Replies: @Delinquent Snail
    She sounds like a misplaced valley girl with all those "likes". Having been to southeast asia, how can she still be on the new "western culture" bandwagon?
    , @Miro23

    Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.
     
    The opposite of diversity is unity, with places like Japan and China being strongly united and having governments committed to advancing Japan and China as national entities.

    Somewhere like the Philippines, is an entirely different story.

    It's also located in Asia, but it has a tradition of corrupt comprador elites, bought by local Chinese plutocrats who virtually run (and loot) what there is of an economy. Joe Studwell gave a great picture of this tight knit Overseas Chinese special interest in his landmark book "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South East Asia".

    The US is heading towards the Philippines side, while still surviving on the degraded structure of what is left of Anglo America. JFK is still a functioning airport, and creaky post war infrastructure still provides roads and bridges that haven't yet fallen down. And most people pretend that the US is a Constitutional Republic, and that Congress defends the best interests of the American people.

    The problem in the US, seems to be more one of a Plutocratic elite (heavily Jewish), capturing the political process, and out to loot the country, rather than one of having a diversity of races.

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be "America First" and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Godfathers-Money-Studwell-2008-08-14/dp/B01N1EY325/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511838750&sr=8-2&keywords=studwell+godfathers
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  16. I actually see myself, like, starting a prepper colony with my friends, and just hoard dry and frozen goods, for the impending apocalypse! That’s actually, like, a long-term goal. Actually, I went to Eugene last summer, and they have a whole grocery store of prepper stuff. They have, you know, like beef chili and enchiladas, so there’s diversity in prepper cuisine.

    OK we left Clueless, Nebraska about an hour ago, and now we’re somewhere in the Crazy Hills and heading deeper.
    Ignorance can be cured. Stupidity can not.
    Frozen goods > prepping. Survival in a barely populated post-apocalyptic wilderness takes 2nd place below The Diversity. FFS.
    Baglady within five years. But with her own shopping cart!

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  17. “The US can do something about it, and they don’t.”

    And that’s the money quote. I moved abroad several times as a part of my job, and stayed abroad because life was a bit saner. It’s hard, however, to disconnect, because everyone in the Western World worries that Trump is going to blow everything up. Not the neo-cons with the master plan, not the MIC and Congress Critters who organise the system to execute it, not people like Steyer and Soros who channel the funding to keep the swamp on a meaningful directional purpose, and not the MSM who keep the American people blindered to what is really going on. No. Trump is the problem. Wait, it’s Trump and the Russians!

    Western Europe has accelerated the spin of the wheels of its own decline in an obvious guilt-trip for what the likes of King Leopold et al did to their former colonies (and they really were shitty to the ROW, but different times), and the net effect is turning the Old World into what they left behind, what they claimed to have improved, in their colonies; not so much racially, but in terms of crime and socialisation and the decline of societal cohesion into mere tribalism. Singapore is looking like a good place to go back to, though I’m sure they will be less welcoming of the diversity now than they were in the ’90s.

    If she wants to restore her faith in Vietnam, she could try living in India, or, better still, Saudi Arabia.

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    • Replies: @grapesoda
    India is nice, I'm sure you wouldn't get it though because you're on that Nietschzean/Materialistic/Satanic plan like Linh and his acolytes.
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  18. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Sounds like Helen has some of the insight and a touch of the ramble – without the bitterness.

    She handled the credit beatdown via debt bondage which is a standard technique in America. Today it is typically tied up in something essential like a 2×4 crapshack or an education that’s been hyper-inflated to hover empire. Some people lose it when they lose it, but then it’s liberating too.

    “I take what I can when I can take it”. “I don’t want to talk to these guys. I don’t like them” I have to remind myself she’s describing the view from inside Vietnam, not here in the heartwarming USA.

    America needs more hippy ladies like Helen, hippy in the sense of someone who rejects or goes away from the established culture of fucking each other over.

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  19. Sam J. says:

    As many have already analyzed she says a LOT of things that make me not want any immigration unless you’re from a Western Country and are White. Like,

    “…Being here has made me feel more American than anything. You know, I never felt very traditional Vietnamese. I feel like in the US, you’re kind of put in a corner, because of the racism…”

    Damn this insane onus on Whites to somehow “validate” people who come to our culture and if you don’t then,”racist”. It’s absurd. I’ll would be willing to bet that no one has really wanted to attack her for being Vietnamese they just don’t care. It’s not up to us to learn about all the people who come here to live in a, somewhat(less all the time), free country.

    I was talking to a guy from, I think Turkey, at a business he owned and asked him how long he’d been here only to get this vitriolic verbal attack about how,”He’d been in the US for 7 years”. I was only asking him how long his business had been at that location. I’m really sick of this. It’s not our responsibility to make people comfortable or welcome to move to our country and in most cases cost us more tax money to take care of their kids.
    If refugees and immigrants can’t stop criticizing us and our culture they need to leave. No one’s begging them to stay. We don’t need any more people or any more traffic on the roads.

    White people for most of our history have been crammed into a shitty cold place and now we make something worthwhile all the other people want to take it.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Biff
    Haji piss in your cornflakes?
    , @prusmc
    In the early 60's I was pleased to extend friendship and help to those fleeing Casto's Cuba. After 1975, I was a strong believer in taking refugees from the Indo-China War. The more I see and deal with their second and third generations, the more I see it was a mistake on the scale of the Hart-Cellar Immigration Act of 1965. As for the Somalian and MENA refugees now enjoying the US welfare state, they aren't waiting for the second generation to spit in our welcoming faces.
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  20. Biff says:
    @Sam J.
    As many have already analyzed she says a LOT of things that make me not want any immigration unless you're from a Western Country and are White. Like,

    "...Being here has made me feel more American than anything. You know, I never felt very traditional Vietnamese. I feel like in the US, you’re kind of put in a corner, because of the racism..."

    Damn this insane onus on Whites to somehow "validate" people who come to our culture and if you don't then,"racist". It's absurd. I'll would be willing to bet that no one has really wanted to attack her for being Vietnamese they just don't care. It's not up to us to learn about all the people who come here to live in a, somewhat(less all the time), free country.

    I was talking to a guy from, I think Turkey, at a business he owned and asked him how long he'd been here only to get this vitriolic verbal attack about how,"He'd been in the US for 7 years". I was only asking him how long his business had been at that location. I'm really sick of this. It's not our responsibility to make people comfortable or welcome to move to our country and in most cases cost us more tax money to take care of their kids.
    If refugees and immigrants can't stop criticizing us and our culture they need to leave. No one's begging them to stay. We don't need any more people or any more traffic on the roads.

    White people for most of our history have been crammed into a shitty cold place and now we make something worthwhile all the other people want to take it.

    Haji piss in your cornflakes?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam J.
    It's not just one thing. It's cumulative. Mass immigration is costing us a great deal and the present narrative is for immigrants to gang up on Whites. A future for Whites in the US could be very much like South African Whites though I seriously doubt the severity will be the same.

    When I was younger I was for immigration. I was wrong.
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  21. Biff says:

    When there was flooding in Hoi An, or in northern parts of Vietnam, not a single person in the US asked me anything about it, like at all. It’s just not reported. Like, no one seems to care or pay attention to anything that happens in other parts of the world.

    That’s what happens when your Media is a corporate monopoly. They will inform you only of things they want you to know – what to buy, what to think, what to follow, who is worthy, and most importantly, who to love, and who to hate. A permanent war footing is impossible without it.

    I noticed this living in New Zealand in 1985. That year Ronald Reagan imposed economic sanctions on NZ for a perceived break in the ANZAC treaty(crushed their economy), and the bombing of the Rainbow Warrior(Green Peace flagship) by The French in Auckland Harbor. BIG happenings in that part of the world. Went back to the States four months later, and nobody had any idea. I mean NONE.

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  22. grapesoda says:
    @njguy73

    Pretty much all expats are losers.
     
    I may be the grandson of immigrants, but I liked this line in Jonathan Franzen's novel Freedom:

    “It wasn’t the people with sociable genes who fled the crowded Old World for the new continent; it was the people who didn’t get along well with others.”
     

    Someone from New Jersey is calling other people losers? You do realize that New Jersey is laughed at openly by literally every other state in the Union right? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    Actually dividing people up into winners and losers is a very New Jersey-ish thing to do. I needed to dumb it down to that animalistic level to try to explain it to you though.

    Read More
    • Replies: @njguy73
    At least I admit where I'm from.

    What about you?
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  23. grapesoda says:
    @The Alarmist

    "The US can do something about it, and they don’t."
     
    And that's the money quote. I moved abroad several times as a part of my job, and stayed abroad because life was a bit saner. It's hard, however, to disconnect, because everyone in the Western World worries that Trump is going to blow everything up. Not the neo-cons with the master plan, not the MIC and Congress Critters who organise the system to execute it, not people like Steyer and Soros who channel the funding to keep the swamp on a meaningful directional purpose, and not the MSM who keep the American people blindered to what is really going on. No. Trump is the problem. Wait, it's Trump and the Russians!

    Western Europe has accelerated the spin of the wheels of its own decline in an obvious guilt-trip for what the likes of King Leopold et al did to their former colonies (and they really were shitty to the ROW, but different times), and the net effect is turning the Old World into what they left behind, what they claimed to have improved, in their colonies; not so much racially, but in terms of crime and socialisation and the decline of societal cohesion into mere tribalism. Singapore is looking like a good place to go back to, though I'm sure they will be less welcoming of the diversity now than they were in the '90s.

    If she wants to restore her faith in Vietnam, she could try living in India, or, better still, Saudi Arabia.

    India is nice, I’m sure you wouldn’t get it though because you’re on that Nietschzean/Materialistic/Satanic plan like Linh and his acolytes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Yeah, I'm the guy who rolls up my car window to keep a dozen young hands reaching through for money as well as to keep out some of the smell of decay and shit. But what I really meant is that India is, perhaps, the number one country of looking out for number one while trying to get over on others.

    You sound, my friend, like one who has fallen for the maya of India (not to be confused with Mayan Indians).
    , @jim jones
    India is not what I would call nice

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHCaIvPN2rY
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  24. prusmc says:
    @Sam J.
    As many have already analyzed she says a LOT of things that make me not want any immigration unless you're from a Western Country and are White. Like,

    "...Being here has made me feel more American than anything. You know, I never felt very traditional Vietnamese. I feel like in the US, you’re kind of put in a corner, because of the racism..."

    Damn this insane onus on Whites to somehow "validate" people who come to our culture and if you don't then,"racist". It's absurd. I'll would be willing to bet that no one has really wanted to attack her for being Vietnamese they just don't care. It's not up to us to learn about all the people who come here to live in a, somewhat(less all the time), free country.

    I was talking to a guy from, I think Turkey, at a business he owned and asked him how long he'd been here only to get this vitriolic verbal attack about how,"He'd been in the US for 7 years". I was only asking him how long his business had been at that location. I'm really sick of this. It's not our responsibility to make people comfortable or welcome to move to our country and in most cases cost us more tax money to take care of their kids.
    If refugees and immigrants can't stop criticizing us and our culture they need to leave. No one's begging them to stay. We don't need any more people or any more traffic on the roads.

    White people for most of our history have been crammed into a shitty cold place and now we make something worthwhile all the other people want to take it.

    In the early 60′s I was pleased to extend friendship and help to those fleeing Casto’s Cuba. After 1975, I was a strong believer in taking refugees from the Indo-China War. The more I see and deal with their second and third generations, the more I see it was a mistake on the scale of the Hart-Cellar Immigration Act of 1965. As for the Somalian and MENA refugees now enjoying the US welfare state, they aren’t waiting for the second generation to spit in our welcoming faces.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    If you want to understand a people, first go live in their country.

    And until then, keep quiet.
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  25. @grapesoda
    India is nice, I'm sure you wouldn't get it though because you're on that Nietschzean/Materialistic/Satanic plan like Linh and his acolytes.

    Yeah, I’m the guy who rolls up my car window to keep a dozen young hands reaching through for money as well as to keep out some of the smell of decay and shit. But what I really meant is that India is, perhaps, the number one country of looking out for number one while trying to get over on others.

    You sound, my friend, like one who has fallen for the maya of India (not to be confused with Mayan Indians).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    India's a total hole with a smattering of redeeming features that make it well worth repeated visits but don't make it a place I'd ever want to live. Similar to Indonesia, perhaps.

    Singapore, though? Lee Kwan Yew's personal prison colony? Disneyland with the death penalty? Robotic people who are scared of each other, the law, and especially the world outside Singapore? I still have an image burned in my mind of a recently graduated high schooler waiting in a massive queue in a bus station clutching his little certificate adorned with three A grades. His complexion pale, his look distant, his emotions no where to be seen, his poor undeveloped little soul withdrawn and scared of the world. But at least his three A's might buy him some peace from the perennial vista of kiasu that is in the background of every Singaporean's mind!

    Try Malaysia and Thailand. They are very different countries, but both comfortably developed, highly cultured, and extremely livable in their own unique ways.
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  26. I find it interesting that she talks a great deal about how terrible the conditions are, and at the same time, about how inexpensive everything is and the general low cost of living. It makes me wonder if there are significant diseconomies to scale as things “improve” and become more organized.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Jonathan Revusky

    how inexpensive everything is and the general low cost of living
     
    Daniel, third world countries have a low cost of living in dollar terms. So they are inexpensive if you are being paid at an international salary level in dollars, or in euros, or have some source of income or resources in whatever hard currency. For the people in the local economy being paid in the local currency, the country is not cheap at all.
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  27. anon says: • Disclaimer

    Not gonna get much traction on this one Linh. No mention of your hatred for Jews here . I predict some sycophants will laud you with positive comments on your prose , not because they like it per se but because you are fellow travelers . If you want 400 + comments get perennial loser Rudy List in for an interview or better yet ” Jewish” Henry Hirchenheimbergoldshiester . Funny that a Jewish guy would change his name from Henry Henry to Henry Hishkovits lol . Check Washtenaw county land records for proof of this LoL .

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam J.
    "...No mention of your hatred for Jews here ..."

    Here I'll help you out.

    The Jews are a tribe of psychopaths, not all but surely a great deal. Even if I'm wrong about this the results of Jews moving into your country are completely indistinguishable from a tribe of psychopaths moving in so whether they really are or not is a moot point.

    If you assume the Jews are a tribe of psychopaths then a great deal of things that seem to make no sense at all suddenly make a great deal of sense and you will be much more likely to be able to predict the Jews behavior.
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  28. Nations can survive Decadence as all civilizations have cycles of rise and fall. The fall of the old dynasties in Turkey, Iran, and China didn’t end those civilizations as people and culture.
    But current Decadence is accompanied with Demodence and Demomise, or demise of native populations. There is NO recovery from that. If France becomes Africanized, it is no longer France and will never regain its true identity and heritage ever again. It will be land of Africans speaking French and colonizing white wombs(infected with jungle fever) to create more black babies. If Australia is repopulated by Hindus, Chinese, Arabs, and Africans, it is no longer Australia as we knew it.

    A nation or community can survive bad(even horrible) ideas or trends. Russia survived communism, even after losing millions of lives. China survived it too despite Mao’s policies having killed millions.
    But Russian remained Russian and China remained Chinese during communism.

    Globalism is more dangerous than communism or bad ideas of the past because it uses decadence to weaken the pride and unity of a people and then drives a stake through the nation’s heart with demographic invasion and replacement.
    To undermine nationalism and morality, globalism feeds the native folks decadence not only as fun but as faith, as something to worship. Notice homomania is not just street celebrations and parades but the new holy symbols in many churches.

    So, what nations face today isn’t just decadence. It is decadence that leads to demomise or demographic demise and demodence, the decaying of an entire people as an identity and culture.
    In the UK, the BBC now regularly feature blacks and non-whites as white historical figures in movies and series.

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    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Even then it's not game over. There are lots of ways to continue, eg:

    1 - Racial separation via the emergence of stratified intermarrying layers of society, eg. India's caste system. This allows the lower castes to do whatever they damned well please and produce as many stupid children as their hearts desire, with the equaliser being that their rights are so minimal as to make them essentially nonexistent and no trouble for the members of the higher castes, out of whose ways they must slink. Think about running over children and paying a few dollars, moving out slums because it's time for a new shopping mall, etc. This system is also operative in Indonesia.

    2 - Mass expulsion, like has happened to the Jews many times in the past, and also happened to the Muslims in Spain, and the Germans in Poland and Kaliningrad. It's messy, but it certainly results in a clean house. Seems to be happening in Myanmar at the moment.

    3 - One child policy, with 2 and 3 children netting fines that only the wealthy can afford, just like in China. It's another form of racial selection, via an economic mechanism.

    Which do you prefer?
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  29. jim jones says:
    @grapesoda
    India is nice, I'm sure you wouldn't get it though because you're on that Nietschzean/Materialistic/Satanic plan like Linh and his acolytes.

    India is not what I would call nice

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  30. Desmond says:

    Being here has made me feel more American than anything. You know, I never felt very traditional Vietnamese. I feel like in the US, you’re kind of put in a corner, because of the racism. Here, I feel so American.

    How does one feel “American?”, especially “so American????” I don’t even think all people agree on what an “American” is.

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  31. LauraMR says:

    Hey, Linh Dinh, is this another one of your false flags from then deep state?

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  32. Gee says:

    Like, drop a few of the “like(s).”

    Read More
    • Replies: @Triumph104
    She claims that she majored in English in college.

    You know, women my age are married with four or five kids, so it’s already weird that I’m unmarried and I’m here writing a sci-fi novel.
     
    Since the year 2000, the average fertility rate for Vietnamese women has been 2.0 or slightly less. I apologize if I missed it, but what does Helen do for a living in Vietnam? Does she live on the profit from the sale of her house or on an advance for the sci-fi novel?
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  33. @TheJester

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.
     
    Exactly my thoughts ... Helen seems to have drunk the "Kool-Aid" on the standard liberal, anti-natalist, feminist dystopia so popular in "hip" settings. Not surprisingly, Helen communicates the feeling of being the "victim" in everything she talks about, whether it is about her family, Chicago, Vietnam, or the prospect of a relationship with someone who is part of the White Male Patriarchy.

    Helen does appear to value the observable results of high-trust, beyond-kin societies such as those found in Singapore and Japan. However, without realizing it, her leftist, liberal politics with their committed to diversity and social relativism helps compromise the high-trust, beyond-kin societies that she now admires in those countries. Indeed, we used to have the latter society in the United States. It was admired, copied, and then called "The American Way of Life".

    It is not surprising that Helen believes the future is Asia. But Helen should perhaps have asked people in Singapore and Japan how they feel about diversity, racism, and feminism. Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.

    She sounds like a misplaced valley girl with all those “likes”. Having been to southeast asia, how can she still be on the new “western culture” bandwagon?

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  34. @Daniel Chieh
    I find it interesting that she talks a great deal about how terrible the conditions are, and at the same time, about how inexpensive everything is and the general low cost of living. It makes me wonder if there are significant diseconomies to scale as things "improve" and become more organized.

    how inexpensive everything is and the general low cost of living

    Daniel, third world countries have a low cost of living in dollar terms. So they are inexpensive if you are being paid at an international salary level in dollars, or in euros, or have some source of income or resources in whatever hard currency. For the people in the local economy being paid in the local currency, the country is not cheap at all.

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  35. Sam J. says:
    @Biff
    Haji piss in your cornflakes?

    It’s not just one thing. It’s cumulative. Mass immigration is costing us a great deal and the present narrative is for immigrants to gang up on Whites. A future for Whites in the US could be very much like South African Whites though I seriously doubt the severity will be the same.

    When I was younger I was for immigration. I was wrong.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff
    Immigrants cost zero. Somehow you have the idea they have access The the U.S. treasury. Well they don’t; only Congress has that, and if spending on immigrants or whatever bothers you, don’t blame the immigrants - they don’t even have a lobby.

    Congress is owned, and their owners decide how to spend the money - stupid voters.
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  36. @Gee
    Like, drop a few of the "like(s)."

    She claims that she majored in English in college.

    You know, women my age are married with four or five kids, so it’s already weird that I’m unmarried and I’m here writing a sci-fi novel.

    Since the year 2000, the average fertility rate for Vietnamese women has been 2.0 or slightly less. I apologize if I missed it, but what does Helen do for a living in Vietnam? Does she live on the profit from the sale of her house or on an advance for the sci-fi novel?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Sam J.
    I bet she teaches English.
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  37. njguy73 says:
    @grapesoda
    Someone from New Jersey is calling other people losers? You do realize that New Jersey is laughed at openly by literally every other state in the Union right? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH

    Actually dividing people up into winners and losers is a very New Jersey-ish thing to do. I needed to dumb it down to that animalistic level to try to explain it to you though.

    At least I admit where I’m from.

    What about you?

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  38. Biff says:
    @Sam J.
    It's not just one thing. It's cumulative. Mass immigration is costing us a great deal and the present narrative is for immigrants to gang up on Whites. A future for Whites in the US could be very much like South African Whites though I seriously doubt the severity will be the same.

    When I was younger I was for immigration. I was wrong.

    Immigrants cost zero. Somehow you have the idea they have access The the U.S. treasury. Well they don’t; only Congress has that, and if spending on immigrants or whatever bothers you, don’t blame the immigrants – they don’t even have a lobby.

    Congress is owned, and their owners decide how to spend the money – stupid voters.

    Read More
    • Replies: @WHAT
    Now count all the welfare and crime costs.
    , @Sam J.
    "...Immigrants cost zero..."

    You're either a liar or a buffoon, neither any good.
    , @Sam J.
    "... don’t blame the immigrants – they don’t even have a lobby..."

    Of course they do. Jews, the Democrat party and rich people who want cheap labor.
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  39. “I think it was Margaret Atwood who said that when she writes speculative fiction, she doesn’t need to do a lot imagining.”

    It helps to be projecting. Or hallucinating wildly. Whatever works.

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  40. Miro23 says:
    @TheJester

    Helen still believes what she was taught in school: anti-racism, anti-sexism, investing in young thugs and otherwise destroying high-trust societies.
     
    Exactly my thoughts ... Helen seems to have drunk the "Kool-Aid" on the standard liberal, anti-natalist, feminist dystopia so popular in "hip" settings. Not surprisingly, Helen communicates the feeling of being the "victim" in everything she talks about, whether it is about her family, Chicago, Vietnam, or the prospect of a relationship with someone who is part of the White Male Patriarchy.

    Helen does appear to value the observable results of high-trust, beyond-kin societies such as those found in Singapore and Japan. However, without realizing it, her leftist, liberal politics with their committed to diversity and social relativism helps compromise the high-trust, beyond-kin societies that she now admires in those countries. Indeed, we used to have the latter society in the United States. It was admired, copied, and then called "The American Way of Life".

    It is not surprising that Helen believes the future is Asia. But Helen should perhaps have asked people in Singapore and Japan how they feel about diversity, racism, and feminism. Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.

    Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.

    The opposite of diversity is unity, with places like Japan and China being strongly united and having governments committed to advancing Japan and China as national entities.

    Somewhere like the Philippines, is an entirely different story.

    It’s also located in Asia, but it has a tradition of corrupt comprador elites, bought by local Chinese plutocrats who virtually run (and loot) what there is of an economy. Joe Studwell gave a great picture of this tight knit Overseas Chinese special interest in his landmark book “Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South East Asia”.

    The US is heading towards the Philippines side, while still surviving on the degraded structure of what is left of Anglo America. JFK is still a functioning airport, and creaky post war infrastructure still provides roads and bridges that haven’t yet fallen down. And most people pretend that the US is a Constitutional Republic, and that Congress defends the best interests of the American people.

    The problem in the US, seems to be more one of a Plutocratic elite (heavily Jewish), capturing the political process, and out to loot the country, rather than one of having a diversity of races.

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Godfathers-Money-Studwell-2008-08-14/dp/B01N1EY325/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511838750&sr=8-2&keywords=studwell+godfathers

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
     
    Really liked that paragraph - you articulated my own thoughts very concisely. With apologies, I will plagiarize this.

    Peace.
    , @TheJester

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event, the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
     
    Also agree ...

    We're very close to a Hispanic family (our grandson is half Mexican). They are desperate to become "Americans"; it has been their life project.

    From our almost daily interaction with them centered on the grandson, it is easy to conclude that an Anglo/Latino society would be better than many of the competing options ... let's say an Anglo/Muslim or Anglo/Hindi society with the Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements.
    , @Anonymous
    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native 'pribumi' are genuinely so useless that it's difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.
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  41. Talha says:
    @Miro23

    Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.
     
    The opposite of diversity is unity, with places like Japan and China being strongly united and having governments committed to advancing Japan and China as national entities.

    Somewhere like the Philippines, is an entirely different story.

    It's also located in Asia, but it has a tradition of corrupt comprador elites, bought by local Chinese plutocrats who virtually run (and loot) what there is of an economy. Joe Studwell gave a great picture of this tight knit Overseas Chinese special interest in his landmark book "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South East Asia".

    The US is heading towards the Philippines side, while still surviving on the degraded structure of what is left of Anglo America. JFK is still a functioning airport, and creaky post war infrastructure still provides roads and bridges that haven't yet fallen down. And most people pretend that the US is a Constitutional Republic, and that Congress defends the best interests of the American people.

    The problem in the US, seems to be more one of a Plutocratic elite (heavily Jewish), capturing the political process, and out to loot the country, rather than one of having a diversity of races.

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be "America First" and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Godfathers-Money-Studwell-2008-08-14/dp/B01N1EY325/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511838750&sr=8-2&keywords=studwell+godfathers

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    Really liked that paragraph – you articulated my own thoughts very concisely. With apologies, I will plagiarize this.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    How did SJW evolve into a pejorative expression? How did the word left become a reflexive put down much the way the word liberal morphed years before?

    The owners of our ideas, much the same as the real owners, prefer to create their own spurious battles with their own code words.

    Two metaphorical store fronts are opened, one store is selling race, race with misogyny, immigrant posturing, the civil rights era, etc and a box of dislike for another store. That fake storefront is open across an imaginary divide. Here they sell ideas that might seem more scientific or rational but aren't. Meritocracy is displayed as an answer to a country built on hypocrisy, a focus on race, genetics, etc. Some of the same items are sold in both stores. There is no overt racism or antisemitism here. That's left to the "customers" who go "shopping". They are "allowed" to make racism and hate real in the comments area of the stores.

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously. It sounds so convincing when one store, or the other store warns its customers of Orwell! - you'll never think the store itself is completely Orwellian.

    Two basic choices seem obvious, or convenient but there are many more if you'd only see how we're being used.

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  42. http://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2017/11/27/thoughts-on-jews-obscenity-and-the-legal-system/#more-155175

    A truly hilarious question:

    My question then, on considering the remarks of Moses and Lemkin, was both simple and stark: If, by promoting vice, the National Socialists were employing a genocidal technique against the Poles, what had the Jews been doing?

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  43. WHAT says:
    @Biff
    Immigrants cost zero. Somehow you have the idea they have access The the U.S. treasury. Well they don’t; only Congress has that, and if spending on immigrants or whatever bothers you, don’t blame the immigrants - they don’t even have a lobby.

    Congress is owned, and their owners decide how to spend the money - stupid voters.

    Now count all the welfare and crime costs.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Biff
    Costs what from who?
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  44. Biff says:
    @WHAT
    Now count all the welfare and crime costs.

    Costs what from who?

    Read More
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  45. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
     
    Really liked that paragraph - you articulated my own thoughts very concisely. With apologies, I will plagiarize this.

    Peace.

    How did SJW evolve into a pejorative expression? How did the word left become a reflexive put down much the way the word liberal morphed years before?

    The owners of our ideas, much the same as the real owners, prefer to create their own spurious battles with their own code words.

    Two metaphorical store fronts are opened, one store is selling race, race with misogyny, immigrant posturing, the civil rights era, etc and a box of dislike for another store. That fake storefront is open across an imaginary divide. Here they sell ideas that might seem more scientific or rational but aren’t. Meritocracy is displayed as an answer to a country built on hypocrisy, a focus on race, genetics, etc. Some of the same items are sold in both stores. There is no overt racism or antisemitism here. That’s left to the “customers” who go “shopping”. They are “allowed” to make racism and hate real in the comments area of the stores.

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously. It sounds so convincing when one store, or the other store warns its customers of Orwell! – you’ll never think the store itself is completely Orwellian.

    Two basic choices seem obvious, or convenient but there are many more if you’d only see how we’re being used.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Wow - more good points!

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously.
    Especially this one - manufactured echo chambers?

    Peace.

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  46. Talha says:
    @Anonymous
    How did SJW evolve into a pejorative expression? How did the word left become a reflexive put down much the way the word liberal morphed years before?

    The owners of our ideas, much the same as the real owners, prefer to create their own spurious battles with their own code words.

    Two metaphorical store fronts are opened, one store is selling race, race with misogyny, immigrant posturing, the civil rights era, etc and a box of dislike for another store. That fake storefront is open across an imaginary divide. Here they sell ideas that might seem more scientific or rational but aren't. Meritocracy is displayed as an answer to a country built on hypocrisy, a focus on race, genetics, etc. Some of the same items are sold in both stores. There is no overt racism or antisemitism here. That's left to the "customers" who go "shopping". They are "allowed" to make racism and hate real in the comments area of the stores.

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously. It sounds so convincing when one store, or the other store warns its customers of Orwell! - you'll never think the store itself is completely Orwellian.

    Two basic choices seem obvious, or convenient but there are many more if you'd only see how we're being used.

    Wow – more good points!

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously.
    Especially this one – manufactured echo chambers?

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @anonyomous
    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
    Either manufactured or otherwise ?
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  47. @Talha
    Wow - more good points!

    Meanwhile both stores are under total surveillance, every move, every bit of information stored and used continuously.
    Especially this one - manufactured echo chambers?

    Peace.

    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
    Either manufactured or otherwise ?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
     
    In some cases, yes. But I don't think that you can make a blanket statement. Many writers here would be described as well within the Left of the spectrum along with the plenty on the Right. The commenters here also include quite a variety of people, though most have a Right-wing or even further Right viewpoint.

    I do wish a couple of things; 1) more Left people would come here and read and listen to the viewpoints and present theirs and 2) the commenters here would be adult enough not to simply shout them down, but engage them in serious dialogue.

    Either manufactured or otherwise ?
     
    Only God and Mr. Unz know what the true intent behind this site are. I only know why I'm here.

    Peace.
    , @helena
    I wouldn't. Echo chambers are social networks where everbody's imo becomes one, like stepford wives. Just because a site has a particular political position isn't enough to make it an echo chamber (imo, ha!) otherwise every site would have to represent every political position and that would be pointless. I certainly wouldn't want an inglux of leftits* in the comments sections here because they bring narrative and narrative is not analysis.

    * that was a typo but it made me gluckle so I leftit.
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  48. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @The Alarmist
    Yeah, I'm the guy who rolls up my car window to keep a dozen young hands reaching through for money as well as to keep out some of the smell of decay and shit. But what I really meant is that India is, perhaps, the number one country of looking out for number one while trying to get over on others.

    You sound, my friend, like one who has fallen for the maya of India (not to be confused with Mayan Indians).

    India’s a total hole with a smattering of redeeming features that make it well worth repeated visits but don’t make it a place I’d ever want to live. Similar to Indonesia, perhaps.

    Singapore, though? Lee Kwan Yew’s personal prison colony? Disneyland with the death penalty? Robotic people who are scared of each other, the law, and especially the world outside Singapore? I still have an image burned in my mind of a recently graduated high schooler waiting in a massive queue in a bus station clutching his little certificate adorned with three A grades. His complexion pale, his look distant, his emotions no where to be seen, his poor undeveloped little soul withdrawn and scared of the world. But at least his three A’s might buy him some peace from the perennial vista of kiasu that is in the background of every Singaporean’s mind!

    Try Malaysia and Thailand. They are very different countries, but both comfortably developed, highly cultured, and extremely livable in their own unique ways.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    I lived in Singapore when it was still largely an expat show. They're still relatively welcoming if you demonstrate an ability to make money (I think a demonstrated income around $150k gets you a "trial" visa these days to show what you can do with yourself). Yeah, if you are a low-level person, it's a real grind, but still bettter than Malaysia and Thailand. If you are on a good expat package, however, the world is your oyster.

    I went back to Singapore a few years ago and actually saw litter here and there on the streets. Mr. Lee had been out of power, and it was starting to show. At a crosswalk, a Chinese guy next to me threw paper on the ground, so I turned and said to him, "You wouldn't do that if Lee Kwan Yew was still in power!" The guy blanched and immediately picked it up.

    Ah, memories. It may be a dictatorship, but at least they are honest about it.
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  49. Talha says:
    @anonyomous
    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
    Either manufactured or otherwise ?

    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?

    In some cases, yes. But I don’t think that you can make a blanket statement. Many writers here would be described as well within the Left of the spectrum along with the plenty on the Right. The commenters here also include quite a variety of people, though most have a Right-wing or even further Right viewpoint.

    I do wish a couple of things; 1) more Left people would come here and read and listen to the viewpoints and present theirs and 2) the commenters here would be adult enough not to simply shout them down, but engage them in serious dialogue.

    Either manufactured or otherwise ?

    Only God and Mr. Unz know what the true intent behind this site are. I only know why I’m here.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    I'd hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber; it's full of endless bickering in true internet style. And as you say the articles represent a variety of viewpoints. But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator, more among commenters than writers, is opposition to mass immigration. The few accounts that support it (Corvinus, Okechukwu-- have I missed anybody?) seem to be rather less than serious for the most part, which is a pity.

    As for the left-right divide, we have actual Stalinists, actual Nazis, various shades of American conservatism, various shades of the American fringe whether "right" or "left", and quite a few who reject the left-right idea entirely. It seems like a decent mix. I have noticed that my arguments (discussions, that is) with other commenters have tended to get less interesting, so that I no longer tend to get into conversations about the artistic merit of Dali or methods of teaching English literacy. I don't know whether that's me or the environment. Probably me.

    "SJW" became pejorative the way "nation-building" came to refer to various kinds of subversive activity and "liberation" came to mean theft in WWII.

    RSDB
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  50. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @prusmc
    In the early 60's I was pleased to extend friendship and help to those fleeing Casto's Cuba. After 1975, I was a strong believer in taking refugees from the Indo-China War. The more I see and deal with their second and third generations, the more I see it was a mistake on the scale of the Hart-Cellar Immigration Act of 1965. As for the Somalian and MENA refugees now enjoying the US welfare state, they aren't waiting for the second generation to spit in our welcoming faces.

    If you want to understand a people, first go live in their country.

    And until then, keep quiet.

    Read More
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  51. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Priss Factor
    Nations can survive Decadence as all civilizations have cycles of rise and fall. The fall of the old dynasties in Turkey, Iran, and China didn't end those civilizations as people and culture.
    But current Decadence is accompanied with Demodence and Demomise, or demise of native populations. There is NO recovery from that. If France becomes Africanized, it is no longer France and will never regain its true identity and heritage ever again. It will be land of Africans speaking French and colonizing white wombs(infected with jungle fever) to create more black babies. If Australia is repopulated by Hindus, Chinese, Arabs, and Africans, it is no longer Australia as we knew it.

    A nation or community can survive bad(even horrible) ideas or trends. Russia survived communism, even after losing millions of lives. China survived it too despite Mao's policies having killed millions.
    But Russian remained Russian and China remained Chinese during communism.

    Globalism is more dangerous than communism or bad ideas of the past because it uses decadence to weaken the pride and unity of a people and then drives a stake through the nation's heart with demographic invasion and replacement.
    To undermine nationalism and morality, globalism feeds the native folks decadence not only as fun but as faith, as something to worship. Notice homomania is not just street celebrations and parades but the new holy symbols in many churches.

    So, what nations face today isn't just decadence. It is decadence that leads to demomise or demographic demise and demodence, the decaying of an entire people as an identity and culture.
    In the UK, the BBC now regularly feature blacks and non-whites as white historical figures in movies and series.

    Even then it’s not game over. There are lots of ways to continue, eg:

    1 – Racial separation via the emergence of stratified intermarrying layers of society, eg. India’s caste system. This allows the lower castes to do whatever they damned well please and produce as many stupid children as their hearts desire, with the equaliser being that their rights are so minimal as to make them essentially nonexistent and no trouble for the members of the higher castes, out of whose ways they must slink. Think about running over children and paying a few dollars, moving out slums because it’s time for a new shopping mall, etc. This system is also operative in Indonesia.

    2 – Mass expulsion, like has happened to the Jews many times in the past, and also happened to the Muslims in Spain, and the Germans in Poland and Kaliningrad. It’s messy, but it certainly results in a clean house. Seems to be happening in Myanmar at the moment.

    3 – One child policy, with 2 and 3 children netting fines that only the wealthy can afford, just like in China. It’s another form of racial selection, via an economic mechanism.

    Which do you prefer?

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  52. She wasn’t around a lot when I was a kid, because she was out helping the other families. She had a lot of, like, I want to give back mentality. She’s a very kind and generous person. In some ways, she’s kind of naïve, maybe. I think I’m a lot more cynical.

    I can relate to this. I come from a family that has experienced huge, mostly downward shifts in social class over the last two centuries. The most recent downward shift, from my mother’s (Boomer) generation to mine (Millennial) has resulted in an at-times estranged relationship with difficult conversations. The underlying problem is that that many Boomers are insulated from the effects of their policies—the next generation bears the brunt—and so they continue to operate off the same fallacies, delusions, and worn-out narrative. Yet, despite this disconnect, navigating and emerging from this mess is contingent on staying within the good graces of these still-influential boomers. The end result is this elaborate, taxing game where you have to entertain their delusions, pretend to follow their advice, but, at the end of the day, just do what’s right for you. It’s really frustrating.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    The underlying problem is that that many Boomers are insulated from the effects of their policies—the next generation bears the brunt—and so they continue to operate off the same fallacies, delusions, and worn-out narrative. Yet, despite this disconnect, navigating and emerging from this mess is contingent on staying within the good graces of these still-influential boomers.
     
    Yes, it's the old Hippies still running the US, with their old Jewish activist leaders, SJW multicultural ideas (developed over the last 50 years), floating on a sea of debt (next generation problem), and replacing White Stuff like the Constitution, marriage, religion, with open borders, BLM, LGBT sex and their other "Freedoms".
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  53. TheJester says:
    @Miro23

    Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.
     
    The opposite of diversity is unity, with places like Japan and China being strongly united and having governments committed to advancing Japan and China as national entities.

    Somewhere like the Philippines, is an entirely different story.

    It's also located in Asia, but it has a tradition of corrupt comprador elites, bought by local Chinese plutocrats who virtually run (and loot) what there is of an economy. Joe Studwell gave a great picture of this tight knit Overseas Chinese special interest in his landmark book "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South East Asia".

    The US is heading towards the Philippines side, while still surviving on the degraded structure of what is left of Anglo America. JFK is still a functioning airport, and creaky post war infrastructure still provides roads and bridges that haven't yet fallen down. And most people pretend that the US is a Constitutional Republic, and that Congress defends the best interests of the American people.

    The problem in the US, seems to be more one of a Plutocratic elite (heavily Jewish), capturing the political process, and out to loot the country, rather than one of having a diversity of races.

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be "America First" and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Godfathers-Money-Studwell-2008-08-14/dp/B01N1EY325/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511838750&sr=8-2&keywords=studwell+godfathers

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event, the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.

    Also agree …

    We’re very close to a Hispanic family (our grandson is half Mexican). They are desperate to become “Americans”; it has been their life project.

    From our almost daily interaction with them centered on the grandson, it is easy to conclude that an Anglo/Latino society would be better than many of the competing options … let’s say an Anglo/Muslim or Anglo/Hindi society with the Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey TheJester,

    let’s say an Anglo/Muslim
     
    I've never understood this. You can have an Anglo-Muslim society. Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.

    Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements
     
    I can't speak of other countries, but I can about the Muslims in America; we are absorbing Anglo-American culture fast, at break-neck speed. We are struggling to keep up. A lot of intermarriages with Whites, Blacks and Latinos (just among me and my cousins, three married a White person, one a Latina, one a Black, one married a Jewish lady - only the Jewish lady didn't convert). Most of our youth wear American style clothing (though on the modest side). The more Islamic versions are contemporary and highly influenced by Western standards (https://shukronline.com/). Their foods are American fare and halal burger-joints are popping up all over the place. I can't think of a single person in the next generation that wants anything close to a cousin or arranged marriage. Also, you'll be happy to note, many don't want a large number of kids (I venture to guess 2 or 3 will be the norm). Most of them primarily speak English and by the third generation, only a few will still remember their original immigrant language - though classical Arabic is getting a revival as a secondary language (it's always had this position due to the religion).

    For instance, the Anglo/Latino society might have a third wheel:
    "Latinos becoming Islam’s fastest growing ethnic group"
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/04/26/latinos-becoming-islams-fastest-growing-ethnic-group

    I don't know enough about Hindu culture to comment, but among the co-workers I have - I think their kids are going to get absorbed very fast by the third generation.

    The trick is to cut off the flow from the old countries - if you do that, eventually the immigrants that are already here will eventually just mix in - otherwise you are setting up situations where they will congregate into perpetuating enclaves.

    Peace.

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  54. Miro23 says:
    @Kokusen'ya

    She wasn’t around a lot when I was a kid, because she was out helping the other families. She had a lot of, like, I want to give back mentality. She’s a very kind and generous person. In some ways, she’s kind of naïve, maybe. I think I’m a lot more cynical.
     
    I can relate to this. I come from a family that has experienced huge, mostly downward shifts in social class over the last two centuries. The most recent downward shift, from my mother’s (Boomer) generation to mine (Millennial) has resulted in an at-times estranged relationship with difficult conversations. The underlying problem is that that many Boomers are insulated from the effects of their policies—the next generation bears the brunt—and so they continue to operate off the same fallacies, delusions, and worn-out narrative. Yet, despite this disconnect, navigating and emerging from this mess is contingent on staying within the good graces of these still-influential boomers. The end result is this elaborate, taxing game where you have to entertain their delusions, pretend to follow their advice, but, at the end of the day, just do what’s right for you. It’s really frustrating.

    The underlying problem is that that many Boomers are insulated from the effects of their policies—the next generation bears the brunt—and so they continue to operate off the same fallacies, delusions, and worn-out narrative. Yet, despite this disconnect, navigating and emerging from this mess is contingent on staying within the good graces of these still-influential boomers.

    Yes, it’s the old Hippies still running the US, with their old Jewish activist leaders, SJW multicultural ideas (developed over the last 50 years), floating on a sea of debt (next generation problem), and replacing White Stuff like the Constitution, marriage, religion, with open borders, BLM, LGBT sex and their other “Freedoms”.

    Read More
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  55. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha

    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
     
    In some cases, yes. But I don't think that you can make a blanket statement. Many writers here would be described as well within the Left of the spectrum along with the plenty on the Right. The commenters here also include quite a variety of people, though most have a Right-wing or even further Right viewpoint.

    I do wish a couple of things; 1) more Left people would come here and read and listen to the viewpoints and present theirs and 2) the commenters here would be adult enough not to simply shout them down, but engage them in serious dialogue.

    Either manufactured or otherwise ?
     
    Only God and Mr. Unz know what the true intent behind this site are. I only know why I'm here.

    Peace.

    I’d hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber; it’s full of endless bickering in true internet style. And as you say the articles represent a variety of viewpoints. But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator, more among commenters than writers, is opposition to mass immigration. The few accounts that support it (Corvinus, Okechukwu– have I missed anybody?) seem to be rather less than serious for the most part, which is a pity.

    As for the left-right divide, we have actual Stalinists, actual Nazis, various shades of American conservatism, various shades of the American fringe whether “right” or “left”, and quite a few who reject the left-right idea entirely. It seems like a decent mix. I have noticed that my arguments (discussions, that is) with other commenters have tended to get less interesting, so that I no longer tend to get into conversations about the artistic merit of Dali or methods of teaching English literacy. I don’t know whether that’s me or the environment. Probably me.

    “SJW” became pejorative the way “nation-building” came to refer to various kinds of subversive activity and “liberation” came to mean theft in WWII.

    RSDB

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha

    I’d hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber
     
    Yes, that is why I said I wouldn't say that except for certain cases. For instance, I consider Mr. Sailer's forum to generally be an echo chamber - I don't go there because when I did, it was just too much nonsense. To each his own, I suppose. Same reason I declined Robert Spencer's request to meet him at JihadWatch.

    If UNZ (in general) was an echo chamber I would also not waste my time. But I can readily tell that I have learned from people and they have learned from me (even though we are on a complete divide) so this is as good as it gets. The other thing is that some people actually put real thought into their arguments and provide proof - which is really cool. I generally don't waste time posting a comment on youtube because most of it is nonsense chatter (other than if I am trying to directly address the person who published the video - those can be good conversations).


    It seems like a decent mix.
     
    Totally agree - I do wish though that some more serious Left-leaning people would join in the fray. Not like the crazy shouting triggered ones (can't hold a serious conversation with them - I've tried), but those willing to hear out alternative voices (and simply ignore some of the crazier ones - meh, it's the internet, what're you going to do).

    methods of teaching English literacy
     
    Sometimes those side conversations are the icing on the cake. One word...Dune.

    Peace.

    , @JackOH
    "But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator . . .".

    Anon, in addition to opposition to mass immigration, there seem to be a few other commonalities among commenters and writers that probably justify a mass march on Washington, which I suggested maybe a week or so ago. Keep the message(s) simple, upbeat, positive. Those pink hat people seem to have organized against Trump within a very few weeks after the election. Is it possible for Ron or one of his colleagues to think about getting the ball rolling for a march on Washington this coming spring?

    I think a lot of folks commenting here will benefit enormously by finding out just how strong or weak their ideas are in the public arena.
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  56. Talha says:
    @TheJester

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be “America First” and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event, the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn’t necessarily a bad thing.
     
    Also agree ...

    We're very close to a Hispanic family (our grandson is half Mexican). They are desperate to become "Americans"; it has been their life project.

    From our almost daily interaction with them centered on the grandson, it is easy to conclude that an Anglo/Latino society would be better than many of the competing options ... let's say an Anglo/Muslim or Anglo/Hindi society with the Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements.

    Hey TheJester,

    let’s say an Anglo/Muslim

    I’ve never understood this. You can have an Anglo-Muslim society. Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.

    Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements

    I can’t speak of other countries, but I can about the Muslims in America; we are absorbing Anglo-American culture fast, at break-neck speed. We are struggling to keep up. A lot of intermarriages with Whites, Blacks and Latinos (just among me and my cousins, three married a White person, one a Latina, one a Black, one married a Jewish lady – only the Jewish lady didn’t convert). Most of our youth wear American style clothing (though on the modest side). The more Islamic versions are contemporary and highly influenced by Western standards (https://shukronline.com/). Their foods are American fare and halal burger-joints are popping up all over the place. I can’t think of a single person in the next generation that wants anything close to a cousin or arranged marriage. Also, you’ll be happy to note, many don’t want a large number of kids (I venture to guess 2 or 3 will be the norm). Most of them primarily speak English and by the third generation, only a few will still remember their original immigrant language – though classical Arabic is getting a revival as a secondary language (it’s always had this position due to the religion).

    For instance, the Anglo/Latino society might have a third wheel:
    “Latinos becoming Islam’s fastest growing ethnic group”

    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/04/26/latinos-becoming-islams-fastest-growing-ethnic-group

    I don’t know enough about Hindu culture to comment, but among the co-workers I have – I think their kids are going to get absorbed very fast by the third generation.

    The trick is to cut off the flow from the old countries – if you do that, eventually the immigrants that are already here will eventually just mix in – otherwise you are setting up situations where they will congregate into perpetuating enclaves.

    Peace.

    Read More
    • Replies: @TheJester
    I lived and worked in the Middle East for more than a decade. I lived Islam first hand. Total immersion. I've read parts of the Quran, taking special note of the parts where Muhammed expresses what he thinks (what Allah thinks?) of non-Muslims and what Muslims should do to them.

    So, knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization, would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization?

    For example, we know that Muslim girls in the UK go out of the house in their hajibs in the morning ... along with bags with makeup, tight jeans, and other revealing clothes that they change into to fit in at school. Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation ... or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?

    In their core assumptions about people and society, Islam and Western Civilization are incompatible. The difference is between "lightness" and "darkness". One might disagree about which one is "light" and which is "dark", but they are incompatible at the core.
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  57. Talha says:
    @Anon
    I'd hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber; it's full of endless bickering in true internet style. And as you say the articles represent a variety of viewpoints. But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator, more among commenters than writers, is opposition to mass immigration. The few accounts that support it (Corvinus, Okechukwu-- have I missed anybody?) seem to be rather less than serious for the most part, which is a pity.

    As for the left-right divide, we have actual Stalinists, actual Nazis, various shades of American conservatism, various shades of the American fringe whether "right" or "left", and quite a few who reject the left-right idea entirely. It seems like a decent mix. I have noticed that my arguments (discussions, that is) with other commenters have tended to get less interesting, so that I no longer tend to get into conversations about the artistic merit of Dali or methods of teaching English literacy. I don't know whether that's me or the environment. Probably me.

    "SJW" became pejorative the way "nation-building" came to refer to various kinds of subversive activity and "liberation" came to mean theft in WWII.

    RSDB

    I’d hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber

    Yes, that is why I said I wouldn’t say that except for certain cases. For instance, I consider Mr. Sailer’s forum to generally be an echo chamber – I don’t go there because when I did, it was just too much nonsense. To each his own, I suppose. Same reason I declined Robert Spencer’s request to meet him at JihadWatch.

    If UNZ (in general) was an echo chamber I would also not waste my time. But I can readily tell that I have learned from people and they have learned from me (even though we are on a complete divide) so this is as good as it gets. The other thing is that some people actually put real thought into their arguments and provide proof – which is really cool. I generally don’t waste time posting a comment on youtube because most of it is nonsense chatter (other than if I am trying to directly address the person who published the video – those can be good conversations).

    It seems like a decent mix.

    Totally agree – I do wish though that some more serious Left-leaning people would join in the fray. Not like the crazy shouting triggered ones (can’t hold a serious conversation with them – I’ve tried), but those willing to hear out alternative voices (and simply ignore some of the crazier ones – meh, it’s the internet, what’re you going to do).

    methods of teaching English literacy

    Sometimes those side conversations are the icing on the cake. One word…Dune.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  58. TheJester says:
    @Talha
    Hey TheJester,

    let’s say an Anglo/Muslim
     
    I've never understood this. You can have an Anglo-Muslim society. Islam is a religion, not an ethnicity.

    Muslims and Hindi bent on maintaining their native cultures, religions, and social arrangements
     
    I can't speak of other countries, but I can about the Muslims in America; we are absorbing Anglo-American culture fast, at break-neck speed. We are struggling to keep up. A lot of intermarriages with Whites, Blacks and Latinos (just among me and my cousins, three married a White person, one a Latina, one a Black, one married a Jewish lady - only the Jewish lady didn't convert). Most of our youth wear American style clothing (though on the modest side). The more Islamic versions are contemporary and highly influenced by Western standards (https://shukronline.com/). Their foods are American fare and halal burger-joints are popping up all over the place. I can't think of a single person in the next generation that wants anything close to a cousin or arranged marriage. Also, you'll be happy to note, many don't want a large number of kids (I venture to guess 2 or 3 will be the norm). Most of them primarily speak English and by the third generation, only a few will still remember their original immigrant language - though classical Arabic is getting a revival as a secondary language (it's always had this position due to the religion).

    For instance, the Anglo/Latino society might have a third wheel:
    "Latinos becoming Islam’s fastest growing ethnic group"
    https://america.cgtn.com/2017/04/26/latinos-becoming-islams-fastest-growing-ethnic-group

    I don't know enough about Hindu culture to comment, but among the co-workers I have - I think their kids are going to get absorbed very fast by the third generation.

    The trick is to cut off the flow from the old countries - if you do that, eventually the immigrants that are already here will eventually just mix in - otherwise you are setting up situations where they will congregate into perpetuating enclaves.

    Peace.

    I lived and worked in the Middle East for more than a decade. I lived Islam first hand. Total immersion. I’ve read parts of the Quran, taking special note of the parts where Muhammed expresses what he thinks (what Allah thinks?) of non-Muslims and what Muslims should do to them.

    So, knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization, would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization?

    For example, we know that Muslim girls in the UK go out of the house in their hajibs in the morning … along with bags with makeup, tight jeans, and other revealing clothes that they change into to fit in at school. Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation … or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?

    In their core assumptions about people and society, Islam and Western Civilization are incompatible. The difference is between “lightness” and “darkness”. One might disagree about which one is “light” and which is “dark”, but they are incompatible at the core.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey TheJester,

    Total immersion.
     
    I've studied with a total of three credential muftis in the Hanafi school, my wife is two years away from getting her Alimah degree in the same school - I'm quite certain I'm fairly well immersed.

    would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization
     
    Would Muslims??? - again, this is a weird question. My own teachers have studied under some of the top religious authorities in places like India, Pakistan and Damascus - so which Muslims are we talking about exactly?

    As far as assimilation, it depends upon the parameters and details. Nothing I mentioned breaks with Shariah principles at all; food (as long as its halal), language, cultural norms/habits are totally fine to adopt - we can drop our immigrant cultural habits for Western ones. For instance; dropping cousin marriage, swapping out a shirt & khakis for a thobe, dropping Urdu/Farsi/Berber for English - none of this violates the Shariah.

    Now if we are talking about ubiquitous norms like; casual sex, drinking, gambling (my co-workers constantly tell me I'm missing out on the lotto pool), etc. then, no - hell no - we won't adopt them.


    knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization
     
    Nobody knows since it didn't exist in its current form. What do you think of Western Civilization in its current form - is it all good? Do you support everything you see?

    Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation … or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?
     
    My daughter sees girls like that - I've talked to her about it. This is not acceptable, but neither is it abandonment of Islam - it is transgression and depravity. Do you like the idea of Western women walking around in tight, revealing clothes with tons of makeup such that people look at them like wolves look at meat? Do you have a daughter?

    they are incompatible at the core
     
    Look, that's all fine. That wasn't my point. I was saying that Anglos (and other Whites*) can become Muslim and pretty darn good ones. I follow a few White convert Muslim scholars on twitter - they are quite impressive. They are raising the bar on the literature produced in English. My wife is currently studying this with her teachers along with Medieval texts:
    http://drjonathanbrown.com/books/hadith-muhammads-legacy/

    Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian - they carried their "Anglo-ness" all along the way.

    Peace.

    *Note: Whites have been part of our tradition from the beginning. One of the first teachers of hadith and formulators of a school of law (when this was in its "proto" stage) was Imam Malik (ra). His chain is the strongest chain of narration - literally called the "Golden Chain". Historically, his school had the second largest adoption in the Muslim world. He is described as a handsome, white-skinned, blonde, tall, blue-eyed man - firmly built with a pointed nose:
    http://www.muwatta.com/physical-description-of-imam-malik/

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  59. @Anonymous
    India's a total hole with a smattering of redeeming features that make it well worth repeated visits but don't make it a place I'd ever want to live. Similar to Indonesia, perhaps.

    Singapore, though? Lee Kwan Yew's personal prison colony? Disneyland with the death penalty? Robotic people who are scared of each other, the law, and especially the world outside Singapore? I still have an image burned in my mind of a recently graduated high schooler waiting in a massive queue in a bus station clutching his little certificate adorned with three A grades. His complexion pale, his look distant, his emotions no where to be seen, his poor undeveloped little soul withdrawn and scared of the world. But at least his three A's might buy him some peace from the perennial vista of kiasu that is in the background of every Singaporean's mind!

    Try Malaysia and Thailand. They are very different countries, but both comfortably developed, highly cultured, and extremely livable in their own unique ways.

    I lived in Singapore when it was still largely an expat show. They’re still relatively welcoming if you demonstrate an ability to make money (I think a demonstrated income around $150k gets you a “trial” visa these days to show what you can do with yourself). Yeah, if you are a low-level person, it’s a real grind, but still bettter than Malaysia and Thailand. If you are on a good expat package, however, the world is your oyster.

    I went back to Singapore a few years ago and actually saw litter here and there on the streets. Mr. Lee had been out of power, and it was starting to show. At a crosswalk, a Chinese guy next to me threw paper on the ground, so I turned and said to him, “You wouldn’t do that if Lee Kwan Yew was still in power!” The guy blanched and immediately picked it up.

    Ah, memories. It may be a dictatorship, but at least they are honest about it.

    Read More
    • Agree: Triumph104
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I beg to differ. For a low level person, Singapore must be hell. Everything is monetized and no money buys you no honey. The Thai working class have a good quality of life and don't have to compete with foreigners for their jobs so I'd say that Thailand must be by far the nicest place for a native unskilled worker. Singaporean and Malaysian working classes suffer massively due to open competition from Bangladeshis and the myriad other foreign workers.

    As for high flying expats, Singapore is the most open although Malaysia is honestly not far behind. The laws are very similar indeed and the main difference is that fully engaging with the Malaysian economy does require learning a good degree of Bahasa Melayu.
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  60. Talha says:
    @TheJester
    I lived and worked in the Middle East for more than a decade. I lived Islam first hand. Total immersion. I've read parts of the Quran, taking special note of the parts where Muhammed expresses what he thinks (what Allah thinks?) of non-Muslims and what Muslims should do to them.

    So, knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization, would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization?

    For example, we know that Muslim girls in the UK go out of the house in their hajibs in the morning ... along with bags with makeup, tight jeans, and other revealing clothes that they change into to fit in at school. Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation ... or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?

    In their core assumptions about people and society, Islam and Western Civilization are incompatible. The difference is between "lightness" and "darkness". One might disagree about which one is "light" and which is "dark", but they are incompatible at the core.

    Hey TheJester,

    Total immersion.

    I’ve studied with a total of three credential muftis in the Hanafi school, my wife is two years away from getting her Alimah degree in the same school – I’m quite certain I’m fairly well immersed.

    would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization

    Would Muslims??? – again, this is a weird question. My own teachers have studied under some of the top religious authorities in places like India, Pakistan and Damascus – so which Muslims are we talking about exactly?

    As far as assimilation, it depends upon the parameters and details. Nothing I mentioned breaks with Shariah principles at all; food (as long as its halal), language, cultural norms/habits are totally fine to adopt – we can drop our immigrant cultural habits for Western ones. For instance; dropping cousin marriage, swapping out a shirt & khakis for a thobe, dropping Urdu/Farsi/Berber for English – none of this violates the Shariah.

    Now if we are talking about ubiquitous norms like; casual sex, drinking, gambling (my co-workers constantly tell me I’m missing out on the lotto pool), etc. then, no – hell no – we won’t adopt them.

    knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization

    Nobody knows since it didn’t exist in its current form. What do you think of Western Civilization in its current form – is it all good? Do you support everything you see?

    Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation … or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?

    My daughter sees girls like that – I’ve talked to her about it. This is not acceptable, but neither is it abandonment of Islam – it is transgression and depravity. Do you like the idea of Western women walking around in tight, revealing clothes with tons of makeup such that people look at them like wolves look at meat? Do you have a daughter?

    they are incompatible at the core

    Look, that’s all fine. That wasn’t my point. I was saying that Anglos (and other Whites*) can become Muslim and pretty darn good ones. I follow a few White convert Muslim scholars on twitter – they are quite impressive. They are raising the bar on the literature produced in English. My wife is currently studying this with her teachers along with Medieval texts:

    http://drjonathanbrown.com/books/hadith-muhammads-legacy/

    Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian – they carried their “Anglo-ness” all along the way.

    Peace.

    *Note: Whites have been part of our tradition from the beginning. One of the first teachers of hadith and formulators of a school of law (when this was in its “proto” stage) was Imam Malik (ra). His chain is the strongest chain of narration – literally called the “Golden Chain”. Historically, his school had the second largest adoption in the Muslim world. He is described as a handsome, white-skinned, blonde, tall, blue-eyed man – firmly built with a pointed nose:

    http://www.muwatta.com/physical-description-of-imam-malik/

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anon
    The Greeks would have been more or less Western Civilization then; as I recall the Prophet was not too hostile to the "Rumi" in his sayings?
    , @helena
    "Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian – they carried their “Anglo-ness” all along the way."

    Anglo is an American construct considered in England too close for comfort to white supreme unless applied to language only.

    People who consider themselves to be English rather than white British tend to be practicing Christians or culturally CofE; so in that sense it would be a contradiction in terms to be another religion. Post-Christians mostly identify as white British, an ethnicity which currently is in search of a culture and thus amenable to any conversion; Buddhism is popular as are Humanism and Marxism.

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  61. Anon says: • Disclaimer
    @Talha
    Hey TheJester,

    Total immersion.
     
    I've studied with a total of three credential muftis in the Hanafi school, my wife is two years away from getting her Alimah degree in the same school - I'm quite certain I'm fairly well immersed.

    would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization
     
    Would Muslims??? - again, this is a weird question. My own teachers have studied under some of the top religious authorities in places like India, Pakistan and Damascus - so which Muslims are we talking about exactly?

    As far as assimilation, it depends upon the parameters and details. Nothing I mentioned breaks with Shariah principles at all; food (as long as its halal), language, cultural norms/habits are totally fine to adopt - we can drop our immigrant cultural habits for Western ones. For instance; dropping cousin marriage, swapping out a shirt & khakis for a thobe, dropping Urdu/Farsi/Berber for English - none of this violates the Shariah.

    Now if we are talking about ubiquitous norms like; casual sex, drinking, gambling (my co-workers constantly tell me I'm missing out on the lotto pool), etc. then, no - hell no - we won't adopt them.


    knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization
     
    Nobody knows since it didn't exist in its current form. What do you think of Western Civilization in its current form - is it all good? Do you support everything you see?

    Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation … or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?
     
    My daughter sees girls like that - I've talked to her about it. This is not acceptable, but neither is it abandonment of Islam - it is transgression and depravity. Do you like the idea of Western women walking around in tight, revealing clothes with tons of makeup such that people look at them like wolves look at meat? Do you have a daughter?

    they are incompatible at the core
     
    Look, that's all fine. That wasn't my point. I was saying that Anglos (and other Whites*) can become Muslim and pretty darn good ones. I follow a few White convert Muslim scholars on twitter - they are quite impressive. They are raising the bar on the literature produced in English. My wife is currently studying this with her teachers along with Medieval texts:
    http://drjonathanbrown.com/books/hadith-muhammads-legacy/

    Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian - they carried their "Anglo-ness" all along the way.

    Peace.

    *Note: Whites have been part of our tradition from the beginning. One of the first teachers of hadith and formulators of a school of law (when this was in its "proto" stage) was Imam Malik (ra). His chain is the strongest chain of narration - literally called the "Golden Chain". Historically, his school had the second largest adoption in the Muslim world. He is described as a handsome, white-skinned, blonde, tall, blue-eyed man - firmly built with a pointed nose:
    http://www.muwatta.com/physical-description-of-imam-malik/

    The Greeks would have been more or less Western Civilization then; as I recall the Prophet was not too hostile to the “Rumi” in his sayings?

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Well the Byzantines were certainly around. Is that the Occident or the Orient? Not my call.

    But yes, he actually used to advise some of his Companions based on their practices (or those of the Persians) - like when it came to health or something unrelated to religious practice. There are hadith about him receiving a gift of some sort of fur coat with silk lining from the Byzantine Emperor and he is reported to have worn it before giving it away as a gift. In one tradition he wears a Roman jubba with tight sleeves.

    Amr ibn Al-'As (ra) who routed them out of Egypt certainly praised some of their characteristics.

    Peace.
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  62. Talha says:
    @Anon
    The Greeks would have been more or less Western Civilization then; as I recall the Prophet was not too hostile to the "Rumi" in his sayings?

    Well the Byzantines were certainly around. Is that the Occident or the Orient? Not my call.

    But yes, he actually used to advise some of his Companions based on their practices (or those of the Persians) – like when it came to health or something unrelated to religious practice. There are hadith about him receiving a gift of some sort of fur coat with silk lining from the Byzantine Emperor and he is reported to have worn it before giving it away as a gift. In one tradition he wears a Roman jubba with tight sleeves.

    Amr ibn Al-’As (ra) who routed them out of Egypt certainly praised some of their characteristics.

    Peace.

    Read More
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  63. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @The Alarmist
    I lived in Singapore when it was still largely an expat show. They're still relatively welcoming if you demonstrate an ability to make money (I think a demonstrated income around $150k gets you a "trial" visa these days to show what you can do with yourself). Yeah, if you are a low-level person, it's a real grind, but still bettter than Malaysia and Thailand. If you are on a good expat package, however, the world is your oyster.

    I went back to Singapore a few years ago and actually saw litter here and there on the streets. Mr. Lee had been out of power, and it was starting to show. At a crosswalk, a Chinese guy next to me threw paper on the ground, so I turned and said to him, "You wouldn't do that if Lee Kwan Yew was still in power!" The guy blanched and immediately picked it up.

    Ah, memories. It may be a dictatorship, but at least they are honest about it.

    I beg to differ. For a low level person, Singapore must be hell. Everything is monetized and no money buys you no honey. The Thai working class have a good quality of life and don’t have to compete with foreigners for their jobs so I’d say that Thailand must be by far the nicest place for a native unskilled worker. Singaporean and Malaysian working classes suffer massively due to open competition from Bangladeshis and the myriad other foreign workers.

    As for high flying expats, Singapore is the most open although Malaysia is honestly not far behind. The laws are very similar indeed and the main difference is that fully engaging with the Malaysian economy does require learning a good degree of Bahasa Melayu.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Third world nationalist
    I was reading that Thailand had a lot of undocumented migrants from Burma and Laos at the border regions.

    The fact that Malaysia has so many Bangladehis is also ironic considering that their ruling party is an ethno nationalist nativist party. Maybe the Bangladehis are considered to be more culturally compatible since they have the same religion.
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  64. JackOH says:
    @Anon
    I'd hardly call UR, esp. the comment section an echo chamber; it's full of endless bickering in true internet style. And as you say the articles represent a variety of viewpoints. But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator, more among commenters than writers, is opposition to mass immigration. The few accounts that support it (Corvinus, Okechukwu-- have I missed anybody?) seem to be rather less than serious for the most part, which is a pity.

    As for the left-right divide, we have actual Stalinists, actual Nazis, various shades of American conservatism, various shades of the American fringe whether "right" or "left", and quite a few who reject the left-right idea entirely. It seems like a decent mix. I have noticed that my arguments (discussions, that is) with other commenters have tended to get less interesting, so that I no longer tend to get into conversations about the artistic merit of Dali or methods of teaching English literacy. I don't know whether that's me or the environment. Probably me.

    "SJW" became pejorative the way "nation-building" came to refer to various kinds of subversive activity and "liberation" came to mean theft in WWII.

    RSDB

    “But one thing that does seem to be a common denominator . . .”.

    Anon, in addition to opposition to mass immigration, there seem to be a few other commonalities among commenters and writers that probably justify a mass march on Washington, which I suggested maybe a week or so ago. Keep the message(s) simple, upbeat, positive. Those pink hat people seem to have organized against Trump within a very few weeks after the election. Is it possible for Ron or one of his colleagues to think about getting the ball rolling for a march on Washington this coming spring?

    I think a lot of folks commenting here will benefit enormously by finding out just how strong or weak their ideas are in the public arena.

    Read More
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  65. “The gender thing is really tough here. You know, women my age are married with four or five kids, so it’s already weird that I’m unmarried”

    An awful lot of eat/pray/love childless western women of a certain age trundling round the developing world in tour groups or solo. They love love love how nice and attentive the locals are to them (i.e. they want her money) and never catch onto the fact that a 40 year old manless, childless woman in most developing countries would be a freak only worthy of pity and/or contempt.

    Read More
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  66. helena says:
    @anonyomous
    Would you consider this site to be an echo chamber ?
    Either manufactured or otherwise ?

    I wouldn’t. Echo chambers are social networks where everbody’s imo becomes one, like stepford wives. Just because a site has a particular political position isn’t enough to make it an echo chamber (imo, ha!) otherwise every site would have to represent every political position and that would be pointless. I certainly wouldn’t want an inglux of leftits* in the comments sections here because they bring narrative and narrative is not analysis.

    * that was a typo but it made me gluckle so I leftit.

    Read More
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  67. helena says:
    @Talha
    Hey TheJester,

    Total immersion.
     
    I've studied with a total of three credential muftis in the Hanafi school, my wife is two years away from getting her Alimah degree in the same school - I'm quite certain I'm fairly well immersed.

    would Muslims consider you a good Muslim for trying to assimilate into Western Civilization
     
    Would Muslims??? - again, this is a weird question. My own teachers have studied under some of the top religious authorities in places like India, Pakistan and Damascus - so which Muslims are we talking about exactly?

    As far as assimilation, it depends upon the parameters and details. Nothing I mentioned breaks with Shariah principles at all; food (as long as its halal), language, cultural norms/habits are totally fine to adopt - we can drop our immigrant cultural habits for Western ones. For instance; dropping cousin marriage, swapping out a shirt & khakis for a thobe, dropping Urdu/Farsi/Berber for English - none of this violates the Shariah.

    Now if we are talking about ubiquitous norms like; casual sex, drinking, gambling (my co-workers constantly tell me I'm missing out on the lotto pool), etc. then, no - hell no - we won't adopt them.


    knowing what Muhammed thinks of Western Civilization
     
    Nobody knows since it didn't exist in its current form. What do you think of Western Civilization in its current form - is it all good? Do you support everything you see?

    Is this what you would call Muslim assimilation … or the de facto abandonment of Islam for Western secularism?
     
    My daughter sees girls like that - I've talked to her about it. This is not acceptable, but neither is it abandonment of Islam - it is transgression and depravity. Do you like the idea of Western women walking around in tight, revealing clothes with tons of makeup such that people look at them like wolves look at meat? Do you have a daughter?

    they are incompatible at the core
     
    Look, that's all fine. That wasn't my point. I was saying that Anglos (and other Whites*) can become Muslim and pretty darn good ones. I follow a few White convert Muslim scholars on twitter - they are quite impressive. They are raising the bar on the literature produced in English. My wife is currently studying this with her teachers along with Medieval texts:
    http://drjonathanbrown.com/books/hadith-muhammads-legacy/

    Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian - they carried their "Anglo-ness" all along the way.

    Peace.

    *Note: Whites have been part of our tradition from the beginning. One of the first teachers of hadith and formulators of a school of law (when this was in its "proto" stage) was Imam Malik (ra). His chain is the strongest chain of narration - literally called the "Golden Chain". Historically, his school had the second largest adoption in the Muslim world. He is described as a handsome, white-skinned, blonde, tall, blue-eyed man - firmly built with a pointed nose:
    http://www.muwatta.com/physical-description-of-imam-malik/

    “Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian – they carried their “Anglo-ness” all along the way.”

    Anglo is an American construct considered in England too close for comfort to white supreme unless applied to language only.

    People who consider themselves to be English rather than white British tend to be practicing Christians or culturally CofE; so in that sense it would be a contradiction in terms to be another religion. Post-Christians mostly identify as white British, an ethnicity which currently is in search of a culture and thus amenable to any conversion; Buddhism is popular as are Humanism and Marxism.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Talha
    Hey helena,

    Post-Christians mostly identify as white British, an ethnicity which currently is in search of a culture and thus amenable to any conversion
     
    There you go. So White British or White whatever can become a Muslim. Plenty do (mostly women actually) and bring over their native cultural habits and norms (whatever ports over without contradiction).

    So if being English is linked to religion (and not just a ethno-linguistic category), then I agree, one cannot be an English-Muslim any more than one can be a Sikh-Muslim. Does this mean atheists aren't English, technically?

    Some are trying to define Muslim as some sort of ethnic categorization, like this guy:
    https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Muslim-Journey-Religion-Reason/dp/1250094445

    Which is silly - if you are atheist, you can't be Muslim (heck, we don't even accept Ahmadiyyahs/Qadiyanis who are practically just like us*), no matter what your ethnic background is since Muslim means (by its very definition) "one who submits".

    Peace.

    *Note: Nobody can distinguish them outwardly or even in practice - they even pray just like me, according to the rules of the Hanafi school - except for one important matter of belief.
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  68. Talha says:
    @helena
    "Does an Anglo cease being an Anglo after he becomes Muslim? Why? Who makes that call? Anglos were pagan, then Christian, now (many are) post-Christian – they carried their “Anglo-ness” all along the way."

    Anglo is an American construct considered in England too close for comfort to white supreme unless applied to language only.

    People who consider themselves to be English rather than white British tend to be practicing Christians or culturally CofE; so in that sense it would be a contradiction in terms to be another religion. Post-Christians mostly identify as white British, an ethnicity which currently is in search of a culture and thus amenable to any conversion; Buddhism is popular as are Humanism and Marxism.

    Hey helena,

    Post-Christians mostly identify as white British, an ethnicity which currently is in search of a culture and thus amenable to any conversion

    There you go. So White British or White whatever can become a Muslim. Plenty do (mostly women actually) and bring over their native cultural habits and norms (whatever ports over without contradiction).

    So if being English is linked to religion (and not just a ethno-linguistic category), then I agree, one cannot be an English-Muslim any more than one can be a Sikh-Muslim. Does this mean atheists aren’t English, technically?

    Some are trying to define Muslim as some sort of ethnic categorization, like this guy:

    https://www.amazon.com/Atheist-Muslim-Journey-Religion-Reason/dp/1250094445

    Which is silly – if you are atheist, you can’t be Muslim (heck, we don’t even accept Ahmadiyyahs/Qadiyanis who are practically just like us*), no matter what your ethnic background is since Muslim means (by its very definition) “one who submits”.

    Peace.

    *Note: Nobody can distinguish them outwardly or even in practice – they even pray just like me, according to the rules of the Hanafi school – except for one important matter of belief.

    Read More
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  69. @Anonymous
    I beg to differ. For a low level person, Singapore must be hell. Everything is monetized and no money buys you no honey. The Thai working class have a good quality of life and don't have to compete with foreigners for their jobs so I'd say that Thailand must be by far the nicest place for a native unskilled worker. Singaporean and Malaysian working classes suffer massively due to open competition from Bangladeshis and the myriad other foreign workers.

    As for high flying expats, Singapore is the most open although Malaysia is honestly not far behind. The laws are very similar indeed and the main difference is that fully engaging with the Malaysian economy does require learning a good degree of Bahasa Melayu.

    I was reading that Thailand had a lot of undocumented migrants from Burma and Laos at the border regions.

    The fact that Malaysia has so many Bangladehis is also ironic considering that their ruling party is an ethno nationalist nativist party. Maybe the Bangladehis are considered to be more culturally compatible since they have the same religion.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    At the border regions? Certainly. In Mae Sai, I had a nice conversation with a Burmese fellow who has been living illegally in Thailand for years and makes his money running cigarettes across the bridge. I don't notice them further inland, though. As for the Lao people, their language (and culture) is almost Thai so they blend in a lot more easily. I understand many of them crossed the Mekong during the Vietnam war and have been de facto Thai ever since. There's also a few villages around the Cambodia border areas full of second and third generation ethnic Cambodians who speak an old Khmer dialect in their village but are otherwise fully Thai.

    Yes ... you're right that Barison National is about Malay nationalism, but they're never shy of bending their principals to form useful alliances. The first of these would have been their embrace of the Mamak (Muslim Indians). Last election, a bunch of Bangladeshis were caught with ID cards voting for the incumbent. They were so new to Malaysia they could not even speak Bahasa Melayu and yet they had citizenship already. Definitely another kind of bribery!

    The other thing is that immigration law is very loosely enforced. A foreign worker who makes their own way to the Malaysian border within Thailand can pay around $500 to be ferried across in a lorry, and then they're free to seek out illegal employment. If they're caught by the police walking around on a Sunday (their day off), they'll have to cough up about $50 whereas if the immigration department raid their factory, their boss will have to go down to the HQ and pay around $250 per head to spring the workers from jail. It's often only temporary, since amnesties happen on a regular basis and long term illegal workers may go with their bosses to immigration to get their arrangement formalised. No fines, no punishments, no blacklists, and affordable fees.
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  70. Sam J. says:
    @Biff
    Immigrants cost zero. Somehow you have the idea they have access The the U.S. treasury. Well they don’t; only Congress has that, and if spending on immigrants or whatever bothers you, don’t blame the immigrants - they don’t even have a lobby.

    Congress is owned, and their owners decide how to spend the money - stupid voters.

    “…Immigrants cost zero…”

    You’re either a liar or a buffoon, neither any good.

    Read More
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  71. Sam J. says:
    @anon
    Not gonna get much traction on this one Linh. No mention of your hatred for Jews here . I predict some sycophants will laud you with positive comments on your prose , not because they like it per se but because you are fellow travelers . If you want 400 + comments get perennial loser Rudy List in for an interview or better yet " Jewish" Henry Hirchenheimbergoldshiester . Funny that a Jewish guy would change his name from Henry Henry to Henry Hishkovits lol . Check Washtenaw county land records for proof of this LoL .

    “…No mention of your hatred for Jews here …”

    Here I’ll help you out.

    The Jews are a tribe of psychopaths, not all but surely a great deal. Even if I’m wrong about this the results of Jews moving into your country are completely indistinguishable from a tribe of psychopaths moving in so whether they really are or not is a moot point.

    If you assume the Jews are a tribe of psychopaths then a great deal of things that seem to make no sense at all suddenly make a great deal of sense and you will be much more likely to be able to predict the Jews behavior.

    Read More
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  72. Sam J. says:
    @Triumph104
    She claims that she majored in English in college.

    You know, women my age are married with four or five kids, so it’s already weird that I’m unmarried and I’m here writing a sci-fi novel.
     
    Since the year 2000, the average fertility rate for Vietnamese women has been 2.0 or slightly less. I apologize if I missed it, but what does Helen do for a living in Vietnam? Does she live on the profit from the sale of her house or on an advance for the sci-fi novel?

    I bet she teaches English.

    Read More
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  73. Sam J. says:
    @Biff
    Immigrants cost zero. Somehow you have the idea they have access The the U.S. treasury. Well they don’t; only Congress has that, and if spending on immigrants or whatever bothers you, don’t blame the immigrants - they don’t even have a lobby.

    Congress is owned, and their owners decide how to spend the money - stupid voters.

    “… don’t blame the immigrants – they don’t even have a lobby…”

    Of course they do. Jews, the Democrat party and rich people who want cheap labor.

    Read More
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  74. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Third world nationalist
    I was reading that Thailand had a lot of undocumented migrants from Burma and Laos at the border regions.

    The fact that Malaysia has so many Bangladehis is also ironic considering that their ruling party is an ethno nationalist nativist party. Maybe the Bangladehis are considered to be more culturally compatible since they have the same religion.

    At the border regions? Certainly. In Mae Sai, I had a nice conversation with a Burmese fellow who has been living illegally in Thailand for years and makes his money running cigarettes across the bridge. I don’t notice them further inland, though. As for the Lao people, their language (and culture) is almost Thai so they blend in a lot more easily. I understand many of them crossed the Mekong during the Vietnam war and have been de facto Thai ever since. There’s also a few villages around the Cambodia border areas full of second and third generation ethnic Cambodians who speak an old Khmer dialect in their village but are otherwise fully Thai.

    Yes … you’re right that Barison National is about Malay nationalism, but they’re never shy of bending their principals to form useful alliances. The first of these would have been their embrace of the Mamak (Muslim Indians). Last election, a bunch of Bangladeshis were caught with ID cards voting for the incumbent. They were so new to Malaysia they could not even speak Bahasa Melayu and yet they had citizenship already. Definitely another kind of bribery!

    The other thing is that immigration law is very loosely enforced. A foreign worker who makes their own way to the Malaysian border within Thailand can pay around $500 to be ferried across in a lorry, and then they’re free to seek out illegal employment. If they’re caught by the police walking around on a Sunday (their day off), they’ll have to cough up about $50 whereas if the immigration department raid their factory, their boss will have to go down to the HQ and pay around $250 per head to spring the workers from jail. It’s often only temporary, since amnesties happen on a regular basis and long term illegal workers may go with their bosses to immigration to get their arrangement formalised. No fines, no punishments, no blacklists, and affordable fees.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Third world nationalist
    I think the ruling UMNO sees Bangadehis as a future vote bank so they tolerate them, one the other hand the rich Chinese business owners see them as a source of cheap labor. So there is very little incentive to crack down on them to the detriment of the Malaysian working class.
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  75. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    Indeed, she sees the decline of the United States without reflecting that it might, indeed, be the extreme diversity and the multitude of races, religions, and cultures that are the reasons for the decline.
     
    The opposite of diversity is unity, with places like Japan and China being strongly united and having governments committed to advancing Japan and China as national entities.

    Somewhere like the Philippines, is an entirely different story.

    It's also located in Asia, but it has a tradition of corrupt comprador elites, bought by local Chinese plutocrats who virtually run (and loot) what there is of an economy. Joe Studwell gave a great picture of this tight knit Overseas Chinese special interest in his landmark book "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South East Asia".

    The US is heading towards the Philippines side, while still surviving on the degraded structure of what is left of Anglo America. JFK is still a functioning airport, and creaky post war infrastructure still provides roads and bridges that haven't yet fallen down. And most people pretend that the US is a Constitutional Republic, and that Congress defends the best interests of the American people.

    The problem in the US, seems to be more one of a Plutocratic elite (heavily Jewish), capturing the political process, and out to loot the country, rather than one of having a diversity of races.

    Different races can get along fine in the absence of the SJW narrative (and have done so under E Pluribus Unum) with many leaving their home countries because they want to be "America First" and live in a well regulated fairer society. In any event the US is going to be ethnically Anglo/Latino whatever happens, which will take some getting used to, but isn't necessarily a bad thing.

    https://www.amazon.com/Asian-Godfathers-Money-Studwell-2008-08-14/dp/B01N1EY325/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1511838750&sr=8-2&keywords=studwell+godfathers

    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native ‘pribumi’ are genuinely so useless that it’s difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native ‘pribumi’ are genuinely so useless that it’s difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.
     
    I've got doubts about this. A stock argument of Imperialism was that the natives couldn't run efficient , uncorrupt and technically advanced societies - justifying Imperial domination.

    It's true that the British put railways in Africa and India and also provided natives with efficient and uncorrupt administrations. It's also true that Rhodesia's white farmers built a successful agro industry that was good for whites, blacks and the whole of the country. And part of the German "Lebensraum" argument was that they could develop the "Eastern Spaces" more productively than the locals - and they were probably right.

    The problem is that India belongs to Indians - it's their home - and they have the right to decide what happens there, even if it's a hopeless mess. The same for Africans in Africa and Russians in Russia.

    So even if the native "pribumi" are genuinely useless, 1) this is a Western judgment - they may be quite happy with tribal life 2) this in no way justifies the presence of an overseas Chinese elite commercial class (or rather Plutocracy).

    The overseas Chinese are aware of the problem. In fact they are rather chameleon like in trying to take on local colouring ( changing their names etc.) and handling multiple identities (Indonesian with the Indonesians and Chinese with the Chinese).

    Chinese monopoly profits continue to exit Indonesia with 100's $ Billions parked in Singapore, while a relative of a leading Chinese Plutocrat talked about the stresses of overseas Chinese identity - and suggested viewing tycoon behaviour through the prism of Eric Berne's 1960 bestseller "The Games People Play"; "They all want a shrink.... to get it off their chest".

    Berne developed a branch of psychotherapy called Transactional Analysis, which highlighted the malleability of identity.

    From Joe Studwell's great book, "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South east Asia").
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  76. @Anonymous
    At the border regions? Certainly. In Mae Sai, I had a nice conversation with a Burmese fellow who has been living illegally in Thailand for years and makes his money running cigarettes across the bridge. I don't notice them further inland, though. As for the Lao people, their language (and culture) is almost Thai so they blend in a lot more easily. I understand many of them crossed the Mekong during the Vietnam war and have been de facto Thai ever since. There's also a few villages around the Cambodia border areas full of second and third generation ethnic Cambodians who speak an old Khmer dialect in their village but are otherwise fully Thai.

    Yes ... you're right that Barison National is about Malay nationalism, but they're never shy of bending their principals to form useful alliances. The first of these would have been their embrace of the Mamak (Muslim Indians). Last election, a bunch of Bangladeshis were caught with ID cards voting for the incumbent. They were so new to Malaysia they could not even speak Bahasa Melayu and yet they had citizenship already. Definitely another kind of bribery!

    The other thing is that immigration law is very loosely enforced. A foreign worker who makes their own way to the Malaysian border within Thailand can pay around $500 to be ferried across in a lorry, and then they're free to seek out illegal employment. If they're caught by the police walking around on a Sunday (their day off), they'll have to cough up about $50 whereas if the immigration department raid their factory, their boss will have to go down to the HQ and pay around $250 per head to spring the workers from jail. It's often only temporary, since amnesties happen on a regular basis and long term illegal workers may go with their bosses to immigration to get their arrangement formalised. No fines, no punishments, no blacklists, and affordable fees.

    I think the ruling UMNO sees Bangadehis as a future vote bank so they tolerate them, one the other hand the rich Chinese business owners see them as a source of cheap labor. So there is very little incentive to crack down on them to the detriment of the Malaysian working class.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    Exactly. I think there's a strong danger of it backfiring though. It's based on the principal of Muslims vs. non-Muslims, but I feel the actual dynamic is leisure class vs. working class. Banglas have a rough ride right from the start and they generally end up seeing the Malays in a very bad light (lazy and useless). When the entrepreneurial Banglas overtake the Malays economically and the 9-5 working Banglas want a fairer share of their own economic output, then I think their votes will start to align with the Chinese vote.

    Please don't say 'rich Chinese business owners' though. Honestly, most of them are far from rich and many are really struggling. Running an independent business is a longstanding part of Chinese culture and also the only option when government jobs are not available on account of race/religion. The 'rich' Chinese business owners will span the full spectrum from something simple like a small plantation, a car air con shop, or a noodle stand, right the way to large scale manufacturing. From their point of view, the useless Malays place a real burden on the Malaysian economy and the only way to remain competitive is to cut corners, such as by using illegal workers. I'd say it's more often a case of necessity rather than greed.
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  77. Miro23 says:
    @Anonymous
    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native 'pribumi' are genuinely so useless that it's difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.

    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native ‘pribumi’ are genuinely so useless that it’s difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.

    I’ve got doubts about this. A stock argument of Imperialism was that the natives couldn’t run efficient , uncorrupt and technically advanced societies – justifying Imperial domination.

    It’s true that the British put railways in Africa and India and also provided natives with efficient and uncorrupt administrations. It’s also true that Rhodesia’s white farmers built a successful agro industry that was good for whites, blacks and the whole of the country. And part of the German “Lebensraum” argument was that they could develop the “Eastern Spaces” more productively than the locals – and they were probably right.

    The problem is that India belongs to Indians – it’s their home – and they have the right to decide what happens there, even if it’s a hopeless mess. The same for Africans in Africa and Russians in Russia.

    So even if the native “pribumi” are genuinely useless, 1) this is a Western judgment – they may be quite happy with tribal life 2) this in no way justifies the presence of an overseas Chinese elite commercial class (or rather Plutocracy).

    The overseas Chinese are aware of the problem. In fact they are rather chameleon like in trying to take on local colouring ( changing their names etc.) and handling multiple identities (Indonesian with the Indonesians and Chinese with the Chinese).

    Chinese monopoly profits continue to exit Indonesia with 100′s $ Billions parked in Singapore, while a relative of a leading Chinese Plutocrat talked about the stresses of overseas Chinese identity – and suggested viewing tycoon behaviour through the prism of Eric Berne’s 1960 bestseller “The Games People Play”; “They all want a shrink…. to get it off their chest”.

    Berne developed a branch of psychotherapy called Transactional Analysis, which highlighted the malleability of identity.

    From Joe Studwell’s great book, “Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South east Asia”).

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    I think you're spot on with the facts. The pribumi do generally enjoy their own 'kampung-ness' and the Chinese do indeed change their identities to blend in (moreso in Java, where they take on Javanese names and speak only Javanese/Indonesian, but less so further afield, eg. in Pontianak or Medan where their main language is Hokkien and their names are often Chinese).

    The only issue I'd take is that saying 'Indonesia belongs to the Indonesians' relies upon defining what exactly is an Indonesian. The Chinese are easily to single out an exclude, but what about the Tamils? For many decades after independence, they were not even considered citizens. And what about transmigration within Indonesia? Balinese get very fed up with Javanese coming to exploit the tropical paradise they created, while Melayu from the prosperous Riau province resent Minang coming across from their religiously conservative and economically retarded Padang. Indonesia's a totally artificial country with dozens of ethnicities/races/languages and it's very short sighted to use the 'pribumi' classification which basically excludes Chinese while allowing all Astronesians. Indeed, this word is generally used by Muslim fundamentalists who really see racial discrimination as a stepping stone to the religious discrimination they truly desire.
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  78. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Third world nationalist
    I think the ruling UMNO sees Bangadehis as a future vote bank so they tolerate them, one the other hand the rich Chinese business owners see them as a source of cheap labor. So there is very little incentive to crack down on them to the detriment of the Malaysian working class.

    Exactly. I think there’s a strong danger of it backfiring though. It’s based on the principal of Muslims vs. non-Muslims, but I feel the actual dynamic is leisure class vs. working class. Banglas have a rough ride right from the start and they generally end up seeing the Malays in a very bad light (lazy and useless). When the entrepreneurial Banglas overtake the Malays economically and the 9-5 working Banglas want a fairer share of their own economic output, then I think their votes will start to align with the Chinese vote.

    Please don’t say ‘rich Chinese business owners’ though. Honestly, most of them are far from rich and many are really struggling. Running an independent business is a longstanding part of Chinese culture and also the only option when government jobs are not available on account of race/religion. The ‘rich’ Chinese business owners will span the full spectrum from something simple like a small plantation, a car air con shop, or a noodle stand, right the way to large scale manufacturing. From their point of view, the useless Malays place a real burden on the Malaysian economy and the only way to remain competitive is to cut corners, such as by using illegal workers. I’d say it’s more often a case of necessity rather than greed.

    Read More
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  79. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    I think Indonesia may be in a similar boat to the Philippines, although the native ‘pribumi’ are genuinely so useless that it’s difficult to envisage any sort of economy without Chinese oversight.
     
    I've got doubts about this. A stock argument of Imperialism was that the natives couldn't run efficient , uncorrupt and technically advanced societies - justifying Imperial domination.

    It's true that the British put railways in Africa and India and also provided natives with efficient and uncorrupt administrations. It's also true that Rhodesia's white farmers built a successful agro industry that was good for whites, blacks and the whole of the country. And part of the German "Lebensraum" argument was that they could develop the "Eastern Spaces" more productively than the locals - and they were probably right.

    The problem is that India belongs to Indians - it's their home - and they have the right to decide what happens there, even if it's a hopeless mess. The same for Africans in Africa and Russians in Russia.

    So even if the native "pribumi" are genuinely useless, 1) this is a Western judgment - they may be quite happy with tribal life 2) this in no way justifies the presence of an overseas Chinese elite commercial class (or rather Plutocracy).

    The overseas Chinese are aware of the problem. In fact they are rather chameleon like in trying to take on local colouring ( changing their names etc.) and handling multiple identities (Indonesian with the Indonesians and Chinese with the Chinese).

    Chinese monopoly profits continue to exit Indonesia with 100's $ Billions parked in Singapore, while a relative of a leading Chinese Plutocrat talked about the stresses of overseas Chinese identity - and suggested viewing tycoon behaviour through the prism of Eric Berne's 1960 bestseller "The Games People Play"; "They all want a shrink.... to get it off their chest".

    Berne developed a branch of psychotherapy called Transactional Analysis, which highlighted the malleability of identity.

    From Joe Studwell's great book, "Asian Godfathers: Money and Power in Hong Kong and South east Asia").

    I think you’re spot on with the facts. The pribumi do generally enjoy their own ‘kampung-ness’ and the Chinese do indeed change their identities to blend in (moreso in Java, where they take on Javanese names and speak only Javanese/Indonesian, but less so further afield, eg. in Pontianak or Medan where their main language is Hokkien and their names are often Chinese).

    The only issue I’d take is that saying ‘Indonesia belongs to the Indonesians’ relies upon defining what exactly is an Indonesian. The Chinese are easily to single out an exclude, but what about the Tamils? For many decades after independence, they were not even considered citizens. And what about transmigration within Indonesia? Balinese get very fed up with Javanese coming to exploit the tropical paradise they created, while Melayu from the prosperous Riau province resent Minang coming across from their religiously conservative and economically retarded Padang. Indonesia’s a totally artificial country with dozens of ethnicities/races/languages and it’s very short sighted to use the ‘pribumi’ classification which basically excludes Chinese while allowing all Astronesians. Indeed, this word is generally used by Muslim fundamentalists who really see racial discrimination as a stepping stone to the religious discrimination they truly desire.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23
    You know more about the region than I do, but apparently there aren't so many Tamils in Indonesia.

    In Sri Lanka, for example, there are many more, and it saw the Sinhalese - Tamil civil war (following Tamil moves towards an independent state). If the Tamils of Sri Lanka weren't going to integrate, then at least they needed to accept their minority status rather than trying to break up the country.

    The idea is that Sri Lankan citizens need to be Sri Lanka first, regardless of their ethnicity, or accept a more distant status by (for example), giving up their citizenship and becoming long term Foreign Residents.

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  80. Miro23 says:
    @Anonymous
    I think you're spot on with the facts. The pribumi do generally enjoy their own 'kampung-ness' and the Chinese do indeed change their identities to blend in (moreso in Java, where they take on Javanese names and speak only Javanese/Indonesian, but less so further afield, eg. in Pontianak or Medan where their main language is Hokkien and their names are often Chinese).

    The only issue I'd take is that saying 'Indonesia belongs to the Indonesians' relies upon defining what exactly is an Indonesian. The Chinese are easily to single out an exclude, but what about the Tamils? For many decades after independence, they were not even considered citizens. And what about transmigration within Indonesia? Balinese get very fed up with Javanese coming to exploit the tropical paradise they created, while Melayu from the prosperous Riau province resent Minang coming across from their religiously conservative and economically retarded Padang. Indonesia's a totally artificial country with dozens of ethnicities/races/languages and it's very short sighted to use the 'pribumi' classification which basically excludes Chinese while allowing all Astronesians. Indeed, this word is generally used by Muslim fundamentalists who really see racial discrimination as a stepping stone to the religious discrimination they truly desire.

    You know more about the region than I do, but apparently there aren’t so many Tamils in Indonesia.

    In Sri Lanka, for example, there are many more, and it saw the Sinhalese – Tamil civil war (following Tamil moves towards an independent state). If the Tamils of Sri Lanka weren’t going to integrate, then at least they needed to accept their minority status rather than trying to break up the country.

    The idea is that Sri Lankan citizens need to be Sri Lanka first, regardless of their ethnicity, or accept a more distant status by (for example), giving up their citizenship and becoming long term Foreign Residents.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    The difference is that Sri Lanka has a clear ethnic majority and can therefore be an ethno-state just like Finland or Hungary. Indonesia is basically 'that which the Dutch were able to conquer' and has no history as a unified entity, nor does it have any clear ethnic majority and therefore can never be an ethno-state, except with recourse to this artificial and misleading concept of 'pribumi'.
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  81. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23
    You know more about the region than I do, but apparently there aren't so many Tamils in Indonesia.

    In Sri Lanka, for example, there are many more, and it saw the Sinhalese - Tamil civil war (following Tamil moves towards an independent state). If the Tamils of Sri Lanka weren't going to integrate, then at least they needed to accept their minority status rather than trying to break up the country.

    The idea is that Sri Lankan citizens need to be Sri Lanka first, regardless of their ethnicity, or accept a more distant status by (for example), giving up their citizenship and becoming long term Foreign Residents.

    The difference is that Sri Lanka has a clear ethnic majority and can therefore be an ethno-state just like Finland or Hungary. Indonesia is basically ‘that which the Dutch were able to conquer’ and has no history as a unified entity, nor does it have any clear ethnic majority and therefore can never be an ethno-state, except with recourse to this artificial and misleading concept of ‘pribumi’.

    Read More
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  82. Miro23 says:

    This looks like an Asian version of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, with everyone supposedly represented, but in reality only one minority (Germans) holding the power . The key was patronage protected top positions for ethnic Germans.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.
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  83. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23
    This looks like an Asian version of the old Austro-Hungarian Empire, with everyone supposedly represented, but in reality only one minority (Germans) holding the power . The key was patronage protected top positions for ethnic Germans.

    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.
     
    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.
    They make big efforts to befriend/support every side of the political spectrum, and when one of "their guys" eventually gains power, he gets the right to a 10% cut on Chinese profits (which makes him and his friends very rich very quickly).

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

    Studwell quotes the Philippine's best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”, so it's no surprise that the public in these places have a cynical attitude towards politicians and the local Chinese.

    I don't see the situation in the US as much different, with regard to US politics and Jewish interests, although others have crowded into the game (pharma, agro, insurance, MIC etc.).

    The pre WW1 Austria-Hungarian Empire was more complicated.

    It covered a large stretch of Central and Eastern Europe and was run by an ethnic German minority using ethnic patronage to reserve top administrative positions for Germans - and it also had a solidly German middle class.

    The situation was upset by a large influx of poor religious Jews from the East, coupled with the displacement of ethnic Germans by a fast growing new Jewish middle class in the professions, and their total dominance of commerce, media and banking (also using ethnic patronage).

    So a previously dominant German minority was displaced by a new dominant Jewish minority, both using ethnic patronage against the rest, and the situation spun out of control.

    Source: "Hitler's Vienna: A Dictator's Apprenticeship" by Brigitte Hamann https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Vienna-Apprenticeship-Brigitte-Hamann/dp/0195125371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546243&sr=1-1&keywords=hitler+hamann

    "Esau's Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews" by Albert S. Lindemann https://www.amazon.com/Esaus-Tears-Modern-Anti-Semitism-Rise/dp/0521795389/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546495&sr=1-1&keywords=Esau%27s+Tears%3A+Modern+Anti-Semitism+and+the+Rise+of+the+Jews

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  84. Miro23 says:
    @Anonymous
    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.

    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.

    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.
    They make big efforts to befriend/support every side of the political spectrum, and when one of “their guys” eventually gains power, he gets the right to a 10% cut on Chinese profits (which makes him and his friends very rich very quickly).

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

    Studwell quotes the Philippine’s best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”, so it’s no surprise that the public in these places have a cynical attitude towards politicians and the local Chinese.

    I don’t see the situation in the US as much different, with regard to US politics and Jewish interests, although others have crowded into the game (pharma, agro, insurance, MIC etc.).

    The pre WW1 Austria-Hungarian Empire was more complicated.

    It covered a large stretch of Central and Eastern Europe and was run by an ethnic German minority using ethnic patronage to reserve top administrative positions for Germans – and it also had a solidly German middle class.

    The situation was upset by a large influx of poor religious Jews from the East, coupled with the displacement of ethnic Germans by a fast growing new Jewish middle class in the professions, and their total dominance of commerce, media and banking (also using ethnic patronage).

    So a previously dominant German minority was displaced by a new dominant Jewish minority, both using ethnic patronage against the rest, and the situation spun out of control.

    Source: “Hitler’s Vienna: A Dictator’s Apprenticeship” by Brigitte Hamann https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Vienna-Apprenticeship-Brigitte-Hamann/dp/0195125371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546243&sr=1-1&keywords=hitler+hamann

    “Esau’s Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews” by Albert S. Lindemann https://www.amazon.com/Esaus-Tears-Modern-Anti-Semitism-Rise/dp/0521795389/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546495&sr=1-1&keywords=Esau%27s+Tears%3A+Modern+Anti-Semitism+and+the+Rise+of+the+Jews

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous

    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.
     
    My experience in SE Asia is that all business is dependent to some extent in paying bribes. More so in Thailand and Indonesia, less so in Malaysia. I don't see anything that's specific to Chinese, except that they have more capital and more ambition and therefore have to pay more bribes.

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

     

    Singapore? It's too small to house much capital. Property rights in Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia (the three countries with which I am most familiar) are generally pretty good and most of the Chinese earnings seem to be re-invested in local property. I've also personally witnessed quite a bit of cross-investing as Indonesian Medan Chinese go to Penang to start businesses, while Malaysian Chinese go to Indonesia. I'd say the high flying Chinese have an international focus, and often have investments all over Asia.

    Studwell quotes the Philippine’s best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”

     

    I think they're poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?

    Based on my experience, I'm not seeing a negative Chinese influence. There's a solid middle class and many genuine rags-to-riches stories like Loh Boon Siew, which is enough to balance out any parasitic class that there might be. Compare the Chinese-intensive cities of Malaysia like Penang, Ipoh, and Malacca, to the Malay cities like Kota Bharu and Kuala Terengganu.
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
  85. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    That sounds similar. So then the Javanese resentment of the Chinese would parallel the German resentment of the Jews.
     
    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.
    They make big efforts to befriend/support every side of the political spectrum, and when one of "their guys" eventually gains power, he gets the right to a 10% cut on Chinese profits (which makes him and his friends very rich very quickly).

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

    Studwell quotes the Philippine's best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”, so it's no surprise that the public in these places have a cynical attitude towards politicians and the local Chinese.

    I don't see the situation in the US as much different, with regard to US politics and Jewish interests, although others have crowded into the game (pharma, agro, insurance, MIC etc.).

    The pre WW1 Austria-Hungarian Empire was more complicated.

    It covered a large stretch of Central and Eastern Europe and was run by an ethnic German minority using ethnic patronage to reserve top administrative positions for Germans - and it also had a solidly German middle class.

    The situation was upset by a large influx of poor religious Jews from the East, coupled with the displacement of ethnic Germans by a fast growing new Jewish middle class in the professions, and their total dominance of commerce, media and banking (also using ethnic patronage).

    So a previously dominant German minority was displaced by a new dominant Jewish minority, both using ethnic patronage against the rest, and the situation spun out of control.

    Source: "Hitler's Vienna: A Dictator's Apprenticeship" by Brigitte Hamann https://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Vienna-Apprenticeship-Brigitte-Hamann/dp/0195125371/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546243&sr=1-1&keywords=hitler+hamann

    "Esau's Tears: Modern Anti-Semitism and the Rise of the Jews" by Albert S. Lindemann https://www.amazon.com/Esaus-Tears-Modern-Anti-Semitism-Rise/dp/0521795389/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1512546495&sr=1-1&keywords=Esau%27s+Tears%3A+Modern+Anti-Semitism+and+the+Rise+of+the+Jews

    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.

    My experience in SE Asia is that all business is dependent to some extent in paying bribes. More so in Thailand and Indonesia, less so in Malaysia. I don’t see anything that’s specific to Chinese, except that they have more capital and more ambition and therefore have to pay more bribes.

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

    Singapore? It’s too small to house much capital. Property rights in Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia (the three countries with which I am most familiar) are generally pretty good and most of the Chinese earnings seem to be re-invested in local property. I’ve also personally witnessed quite a bit of cross-investing as Indonesian Medan Chinese go to Penang to start businesses, while Malaysian Chinese go to Indonesia. I’d say the high flying Chinese have an international focus, and often have investments all over Asia.

    Studwell quotes the Philippine’s best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”

    I think they’re poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?

    Based on my experience, I’m not seeing a negative Chinese influence. There’s a solid middle class and many genuine rags-to-riches stories like Loh Boon Siew, which is enough to balance out any parasitic class that there might be. Compare the Chinese-intensive cities of Malaysia like Penang, Ipoh, and Malacca, to the Malay cities like Kota Bharu and Kuala Terengganu.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Miro23

    I think they’re poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?
     
    This seems like a basic issue of lack of adaptability of tribal cultures to modernity (or lack of desire to adapt).

    Maybe the Chinese can do it all better in SE Asia, but how much power can they collect before it causes problems? The British in India were an ethnic minority with a lot of power and organizational ability, but Indian nationalists finally pushed them out.
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  86. Miro23 says:
    @Anonymous

    According to Studwell, who knows a lot about SE Asian economics, the (small) overseas Chinese commercial elites see their survival/prosperity wholly dependent on corrupting local politics.
     
    My experience in SE Asia is that all business is dependent to some extent in paying bribes. More so in Thailand and Indonesia, less so in Malaysia. I don't see anything that's specific to Chinese, except that they have more capital and more ambition and therefore have to pay more bribes.

    In other words, the system is completely corrupt, and local politicians always sell out their base to 1) protect the minority Chinese 2) protect Chinese extractive monopolies, with those monopolies sending profits direct to Singapore (majority ethnic Chinese).

     

    Singapore? It's too small to house much capital. Property rights in Thailand, Malaysia, and Indonesia (the three countries with which I am most familiar) are generally pretty good and most of the Chinese earnings seem to be re-invested in local property. I've also personally witnessed quite a bit of cross-investing as Indonesian Medan Chinese go to Penang to start businesses, while Malaysian Chinese go to Indonesia. I'd say the high flying Chinese have an international focus, and often have investments all over Asia.

    Studwell quotes the Philippine’s best known living author, Francisco Sionil José saying, “We are poor because our élites have no sense of nation”

     

    I think they're poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?

    Based on my experience, I'm not seeing a negative Chinese influence. There's a solid middle class and many genuine rags-to-riches stories like Loh Boon Siew, which is enough to balance out any parasitic class that there might be. Compare the Chinese-intensive cities of Malaysia like Penang, Ipoh, and Malacca, to the Malay cities like Kota Bharu and Kuala Terengganu.

    I think they’re poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?

    This seems like a basic issue of lack of adaptability of tribal cultures to modernity (or lack of desire to adapt).

    Maybe the Chinese can do it all better in SE Asia, but how much power can they collect before it causes problems? The British in India were an ethnic minority with a lot of power and organizational ability, but Indian nationalists finally pushed them out.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Anonymous
    In Singapore and Malaysia their numbers will keep them safe and, in Thailand, they blend in much more easily. Laos and Cambodia are no threat, since the population is low density and weak. So I guess you're asking when the Indonesians are next going to rise up? No idea. Watch out for economic hardship and Islamists!
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  87. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer
    @Miro23

    I think they’re poor because their standards are low. Do they reliably turn up to work or do they make silly excuses? Do they focus on their work, or are they dreaming? Can they perform a mechanical task to a high degree of precision, or is their work shoddy and liable to fail? Are they disciplined and clear-headed enough to manage a 100 employee enterprise, or do they fail expand beyond 5 workers?
     
    This seems like a basic issue of lack of adaptability of tribal cultures to modernity (or lack of desire to adapt).

    Maybe the Chinese can do it all better in SE Asia, but how much power can they collect before it causes problems? The British in India were an ethnic minority with a lot of power and organizational ability, but Indian nationalists finally pushed them out.

    In Singapore and Malaysia their numbers will keep them safe and, in Thailand, they blend in much more easily. Laos and Cambodia are no threat, since the population is low density and weak. So I guess you’re asking when the Indonesians are next going to rise up? No idea. Watch out for economic hardship and Islamists!

    Read More
    ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
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