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Monica Hotel in Cambriles, Spain, 2017
Monica Hotel in Cambriles, Spain, 2017
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In 1937, Orwell was shot in the neck during the Spanish Civil War. Known mostly as a political allegorist, Orwell was also a master at describing all that is see­n, heard and felt, so in Homage to Catalonia, you can read about his near death experience, “Roughly speaking it was the sensation of being at the center of an explosion. There seemed to be a loud bang and a blinding flash of light all around me, and I felt a tremendous shock—no pain, only a violent shock, such as you get from an electric terminal; with it a sense of utter weakness, a feeling of being stricken and shriveled up to nothing. The sandbags in front of me receded into immense distance. I fancy you would feel much the same if you were struck by lightning. I knew immediately that I was hit, but because of the seeming bang and flash I thought it was a rifle nearby that had gone off accidentally and shot me. All this happened in a space of time much less than a second.”

After spending several days in Lerida, where he was tended to by sweet, well meaning yet incompetent nurses, Orwell was sent to Tarragona by train. He recovered in a hospital two blocks from where I’m typing this.

Orwell, “I was three or four days at Tarragona. My strength was coming back, and one day, by going slowly, I managed to walk down as far as the beach. It was queer to see the seaside life going on almost as usual; the smart cafés along the promenade and the plump local bourgeoisie bathing and sunning themselves in deck-chairs as though there had not been a war within a thousand miles. Nevertheless, as it happened, I saw a bather drowned, which one would have thought impossible in that shallow and tepid sea.”

The day I arrived in Tarragona, a 25-year-old Russian drowned, so the seemingly impossible keeps on happening. Retracing Orwell’s path down the Rambla, the city’s wide promenade, I ended up at the edge of a cliff overlooking the Mediterranean. Among the handful of people milling about at this early hour, there was a portly Muslim lady in a head scarf. Ten percent of Tarragona are Muslims. Looking down a hundred feet, I noticed a large graffiti in Catalan, “el jovent construim alternatives.” The young build alternatives.

Often, the young also step on the same piles of manure and spout only a slightly different set of nonsense from previous generations. The young are also prone to be manipulated by their cynical and sinister elders. In short, there is rarely anything new in the jejune, just cute, at best, vanity. Artaud, “You are quite unnecessary, young man!”

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As you could see, Catalan is at least half decipherable to Spanish, Portuguese, Italian or French speakers, unlike Euskera, the Basque language. Close enough to Castilians, Catalans still see themselves, quite naturally, as a distinct family, so all over Tarragona, there are Catalan flags hanging from balconies. Walking or riding for miles through just about every neighborhood, I have yet to spot a Spanish flag. Draped on any home, it would surely be perceived as a provocation. Shop and product signs are often in Catalan only, and bookstores carry volumes in both Spanish and Catalan, with the former still predominating, however, and the latter heavily subsidized.

On the block where I’m staying, there is a restaurant/bar, Apple, that’s run by a Chinese immigrant who’s been in Spain five years. From eight in the morning until eleven at night, there are always customers sitting at his tables, inside and out. A few feet away is the Tian An-Men restaurant, and around the corner, there is a kebab joint owned by Pakistani immigrants. As with most western European cities, Chinese and kebab eateries sprinkle Tarragona.

On the outskirt of town is City Wok, a huge Chinese-owned buffet that’s always packed with people stuffing their faces. Its employees are Chinese, Pakistanis and one Argentinian. Nearby is Merca China, a big box store selling made-in-China merchandises.

A seafood restaurant, Taller, is owned by a gay couple, with one of them a half Japanese Peruvian. The two waiters at Osteria del Lab are Ukrainian and a chatty dude from Torino. Italian run gelaterie and pizzerie are not uncommon, Pakistanis own many convenience stores and many of the venders at the weekly clothing flea market are Arabs. Nannies and caretakers for the elderly are often Latin Americans. My host, Jonathan Revusky, sometimes hires a Moroccan cleaning lady. Jon’s long-time girlfriend arrived in Spain with a Lithuanian passport, and his daughter’s best friend is Russian.

When Mimi asked Katia if she liked Putin, the 12-year-old answered, “Yes, I love chocolate pudding!”

Though quite cosmopolitan for a small city, Tarragona is still 80% Spanish, and Carlos, a 42-year-old high school math teacher, told me there are no problems with immigrants, for they are quickly assimilating. Many of his students are immigrants.

Carlos has only traveled to four nearby countries. More than Paris or London, his ultimate destination is New York.

Each Friday in Tarragona, there’s an English corner at a bar where expats and learners of English can chatter. At one, I got to know Leo, a middle-aged American who’s been in Tarragona for five years. Leo’s great-great-great grandfather came to America in 1615 from Reus, just 15 minutes from Tarragona, and his family never stopped speaking Castilian Spanish at home, so Leo grew up bilingual in Texas.

“So this is a home coming for you! How often do you return to the US?”

“I don’t want to go back there again!”

“Don’t you still have many relatives there?”

“They can come here to see me. Six of them already have. It’s so much nicer over here.”

“What was the last place you lived in the US?”

“Houston.”

“Oh man!” I laughed. “The freeways, the traffic, Houston sucks!”

“Yes, it does.”

“I like other places in Texas, though.”

“I love Austin. It is one of my favorite cities.”

“Since you’re Spanish, were you ever annoyed at being confused for a Mexican growing up?”

“But I am also Mexican. Texas was Mexican!”

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We were sitting at an outside table, in the shadow of the hulking ruins of a Roman wall. The square was filled with people eating and drinking. Half a dozen small kids kicked around a couple of plastic soccer balls. A middle-aged Gypsy played the accordion for tips. It was cool, breezy and quiet enough to talk comfortably.

As a seaside resort, Tarragona has plenty of foreign tourists, but not too many to make the place tacky. Thanks to compounding ineptitudes by Delta Airlines, my plane was more than three hours late leaving Philadelphia, so I ended up being rerouted through Amsterdam. My flight into Barcelona, then, was filled with mostly blonde Dutch vacationers, including many small children. People were literally giddy with laughter, jokes and general goofiness at the promise of being on a Spanish beach in a few hours. A mother sang one verse to her toddler. A twelve-year-old turned around and said “Hola!” to the Spanish young lady next to me.

Increasingly, Russians are also vacationing in Spain. Moreover, the Spanish government have been targeting rich Russians and Chinese as immigrants. In 2012, anyone who bought a house for 160,000 Euros was given residency. A year later, this was bumped up to half a million. At the Barcelona airport’s arrival terminal, there is a large add in Chinese for Spanish real estate. With a birthrate of just 1.3 children per woman, Spain needs immigrants to sustain its economy.

Of the 19 Arab “terrorists” of 9/11, Mohammed Atta is the most recognized. Fingered as the suicide pilot of the first plane to hit the Twin Towers, Atta’s name and face have become famous. The Cairo-born Atta has been traced in the mainstream press to a Hamburg university, Brooklyn apartment, Maine public library, Oklahoma motel, Florida flight school, San Diego house, Kandahar house, Georgia payphone and Prague Casino. There is a video of a smiling and laughing Atta supposedly declaring his suicide will in Afghanistan, but with no sound, it can be him saying just about anything, and nothing in the short clip even indicates that it was filmed in Afghanistan.

Two months before 9/11, Atta flew to Spain from Miami. Landing in the late afternoon in Madrid, Atta met up with Iqbal Afzal Admat, an Arab with an Irish passport, and they stayed in adjacent rooms at a hotel near the airport. The next morning, they rented a car and drove to Tarragona, where they met four more buddies. After 9/11, the Spanish police conducted a ten-month investigation of these Arabs’ movements in Spain, and the result is a 700-page report that documents no crimes, just a few guys checking in and out of hotel rooms. Several made calls overseas. Two drank vodka. One visited a theme park.

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With nothing to sensationalize, El Pais still managed to publish on June 30th, 2002 an article called “The Terrorist Summit Where 9/11 Was Prepared Took Place in Tarragona” [“La cumbre terrorista donde se preparó el 11-S se celebró en Tarragona”] Sprinkled throughout with pure inventions, it often reads like pulp fiction. A typical passage, “Atta, 33-years-old, born in Kafr el Shikh, showed his Egyptian passport to the customs control, and neither his glance nor pulse fluttered when the National Police agent looked him in the eyes and, with a faint gesture, ordered him forward. A man who two months later would trigger the worst attack against the United States since Pearl Harbor (1941) appeared quite a bit less than a suicide pilot. Dressed in a short-sleeved shirt, long pants and shoes, he held in his right hand an elegant leather wallet. Although his face was characteristically Arab, he appeared as a Western tourist.”

According to the official 9/11 version, there were supposed to be 20 suicide terrorists, but one man, the Yemeni Ramzi bin al-Shibh, could not gain entry to the US, so he stayed behind in Europe. Captured in Karachi, Pakistan on September 11th, 2002, al-Shibh languishes in Guantanamo at age 42.

Al-Shibh was also in Tarragona Province in July of 2001. One afternoon, Jonathan Revusky and I drove to the Hotel in Cambrils, where al-Shibh had stayed. Just a block from the beach, the five-story hotel has a private pool, bar and low couches, Arab styled, in the reception area, with a Turkish samovar set. Unlike Selou down the road, Cambrils is not overrun by British, German, Russian and French tourists. With a historical core and several fine restaurants, Cambrils still has character and charms. There aren’t Irish pubs all over, as in Selou. Al-Shibh, my man, you have taste, and it’s a shame they’ve locked you up for nothing.

Why nothing? Simply because commercial planes cannot fly over 500 miles an hour at such a low altitude, around a thousand feet, then disappear completely into steel skyscrapers, so the acts for which al-Shibh and the other 19 Arabs are accused of simply didn’t happen. They did not cause any building to implode and pancake into its own footprint on 9/11, nor did any of them fly into the Pentagon. The only proof of a violent hijacking that day is a farcically unconvincing recording of a purported air stewardess, one Betty Ong, who talked quite casually for 23 minutes about murder and mayhem on a plane, but without any sounds of panic in the background, as if people were quite OK with their fellow passengers being murdered, and terrorists running amok. Oh Lord, the guy next to me just had his throat slashed with a boxcutter. Let me finish this tiny cup of coffee.

Revusky, “There are facts, then there is story telling. What are presented as facts in the media these days are often just fic-tion, just bullshit. When I was in Marrakesh in 2001, I saw these professional story tellers mesmerizing crowds, and we have professional spinners of tales also, so a handful of Arabs hanging out on the Costa Daurada is spun into a terror summit. They can say that the notorious Vietnamese-American terror-ist Linh Dinh suddenly showed up in Tarragona, an Al Queda hotbed, to hash out some plots with the deranged subversive, Jonathan Revusky. Locals could observe them swimming at various beaches, as if looking for weak spots in the city’s de-fense. Occasionally, some Slavic broad was seen to carouse with them.”

ORDER IT NOW

So there you have it. Though I’m sitting in this sun bathed apartment, with palm trees just outside, dark plots are being hatched, apparently, for on the wall, there’s a Putin calendar, and the music is the Algerian Cheb Hasni belting out “My Way,” then “Saddam,” an homage to the late Iraqi leader. Not quite believing my eyes, I stare at a plate of potato frittata and blood sausage. Oh, the endless terrors! The Mossad! The C.I.A.!

Linh Dinh’s Postcards from the End of America has just been released by Seven Stories Press. He maintains an active photo blog.

 
• Category: Foreign Policy • Tags: 9/11, American Media, Conspiracy Theories 
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  1. martino says:

    have a good time in tarragona-cataluña. you have good eyes to see. i ask my friends when they come from a travel from other country or city: ¿what have you seen? Noone has seen nothing. they travel but not can see nothing, apart monuments museums. I travel to other city, at 50 miles only, and i see at once the different way of life, character, etc.i write this from costa brava, girona

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  2. Anonymous says: • Disclaimer

    Angel Mas and ACOM can fly at low altitude and suppress BDS. Is Angel Mas real and is he protected by the Schlomin Shield?

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  3. uslabor says:

    “Since you’re Spanish, were you ever annoyed at being confused for a Mexican growing up?”

    “But I am also Mexican. Texas was Mexican!”

    WHAT A STUPID QUESTION!!!!

    Lihn Dihn………..A lesson to YOU and your readers. Being Mexican isn’t an ethnicity, it is a nationality.

    Read More
    • Replies: @utu
    People on the lower rungs of ethnic/racial hierarchy (e.g. as the de facto existing in the US) are very much better attuned to the minutiae of racial and ethnic who-whom than people who are on the higher rungs. So Linh Dinh brining up Mexicans did not realize he was committing a gaffe.

    Linh Dinh's question perhaps revealed something. He seemed to want to suck up to the interlocutor by (1) pointing out that he was not a lowly Mexican but Catalonian, (2) commiserate with him that he undeservedly suffered the special treatment Mexicans are expected to get in Texas (which Catalonians do not deserve - or so he thought?).
    , @Wizard of Oz
    And so is "Spaniah" so what's your problem?
  4. utu says:
    @uslabor
    “Since you’re Spanish, were you ever annoyed at being confused for a Mexican growing up?”

    “But I am also Mexican. Texas was Mexican!”

    WHAT A STUPID QUESTION!!!!

    Lihn Dihn...........A lesson to YOU and your readers. Being Mexican isn't an ethnicity, it is a nationality.

    People on the lower rungs of ethnic/racial hierarchy (e.g. as the de facto existing in the US) are very much better attuned to the minutiae of racial and ethnic who-whom than people who are on the higher rungs. So Linh Dinh brining up Mexicans did not realize he was committing a gaffe.

    Linh Dinh’s question perhaps revealed something. He seemed to want to suck up to the interlocutor by (1) pointing out that he was not a lowly Mexican but Catalonian, (2) commiserate with him that he undeservedly suffered the special treatment Mexicans are expected to get in Texas (which Catalonians do not deserve – or so he thought?).

    Read More
    • Replies: @hyperbola
    Mexicans are not considered "lowly" in Spain and Leo might well have considered such an insinuation to be insulting. Or at least worthy of a stupid American. The Spanish remember rather well that during Franco's dictatorship, a large number of Spanish intellectuals fled to Mexico.
  5. utu says:

    They can say that the notorious Vietnamese-American terror-ist Linh Dinh suddenly showed up in Tarragona, an Al Queda hotbed, to hash out some plots with the deranged subversive, Jonathan Revusky.

    What does it take to become a patsy? Just a bad luck? So anybody can be drafted of the street to “volunteer” the pasty job? Or you have to be involved somehow in the plot? So they can play you in parallel to the real plot and keep sending on errands that create hints and innuendos necessary for the cover story to be revealed at the end. This always requires money. So the first warning should be the money. And Atta had lots of money or so they say. In 2001 one would expect that people particularly who get involved in some clandestine activities should not be oblivious of the patsy alternative. Particularly if you were a Muslim. Or they don’t have conspiracy theorists in Muslim world? Perhaps Revusky should have his texts translated in to Arabic. Didn’t Mohamed Atta read The Little Drummer Girl? And what about L.H. Oswald? Wasn’t he aware that somebody was creating a legend for him in months and weeks prior to JFK’s assassination. He was involved in something. How soon after shooting did he realize that he was the designated patsy? Clearly he knew it when he was at the Dallas PD. He said it himself. He did to say it was a mistake or mistaken identity. No, he said he was a patsy. And patsy means only two things

    (1) a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker

    (2) a person upon whom the blame for something falls; scapegoat; fall guy.

    And he was both if we want to believe him.

    Or in Texas 1963 patsy had another more innocuous meaning? If not, Oswald clearly implied a plot, a conspiracy in which we was casted in the role of a patsy.

    Should LD and JR should not worry? I hope they do not have to.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Veritatis
    I'm not sure it is a stupid question. I have a friend in Houston, an 83 year old lady of Spanish extraction, named Carmen. She migrated to Texas as a small child, and has lived in Houston since she's 27, married a local fellow of German/English stock, integrated into local society. Accentless english, but naturally she speaks spanish. Anyway, she is dark haired, blue eyed with the very fair skin and chiselled features I associate with Santander, Spain. She tells this story about how every day she would go pick up her kids at school, and had the ritual tea with the standard Texan moms. And when anything related to Mexico or mexican things came up, they would ask her to explain. She thinks it is an american thing.
  6. Veritatis says:
    @utu
    They can say that the notorious Vietnamese-American terror-ist Linh Dinh suddenly showed up in Tarragona, an Al Queda hotbed, to hash out some plots with the deranged subversive, Jonathan Revusky.

    What does it take to become a patsy? Just a bad luck? So anybody can be drafted of the street to "volunteer" the pasty job? Or you have to be involved somehow in the plot? So they can play you in parallel to the real plot and keep sending on errands that create hints and innuendos necessary for the cover story to be revealed at the end. This always requires money. So the first warning should be the money. And Atta had lots of money or so they say. In 2001 one would expect that people particularly who get involved in some clandestine activities should not be oblivious of the patsy alternative. Particularly if you were a Muslim. Or they don't have conspiracy theorists in Muslim world? Perhaps Revusky should have his texts translated in to Arabic. Didn't Mohamed Atta read The Little Drummer Girl? And what about L.H. Oswald? Wasn't he aware that somebody was creating a legend for him in months and weeks prior to JFK's assassination. He was involved in something. How soon after shooting did he realize that he was the designated patsy? Clearly he knew it when he was at the Dallas PD. He said it himself. He did to say it was a mistake or mistaken identity. No, he said he was a patsy. And patsy means only two things

    (1) a person who is easily swindled, deceived, coerced, persuaded, etc.; sucker

    (2) a person upon whom the blame for something falls; scapegoat; fall guy.

    And he was both if we want to believe him.

    Or in Texas 1963 patsy had another more innocuous meaning? If not, Oswald clearly implied a plot, a conspiracy in which we was casted in the role of a patsy.

    Should LD and JR should not worry? I hope they do not have to.

    I’m not sure it is a stupid question. I have a friend in Houston, an 83 year old lady of Spanish extraction, named Carmen. She migrated to Texas as a small child, and has lived in Houston since she’s 27, married a local fellow of German/English stock, integrated into local society. Accentless english, but naturally she speaks spanish. Anyway, she is dark haired, blue eyed with the very fair skin and chiselled features I associate with Santander, Spain. She tells this story about how every day she would go pick up her kids at school, and had the ritual tea with the standard Texan moms. And when anything related to Mexico or mexican things came up, they would ask her to explain. She thinks it is an american thing.

    Read More
  7. Michelle says:

    I used to work with a woman from New Mexico. She was Spanish and Apache. She used to hate it when the diversity police would float by and ask everyone which language they spoke. My co-worker spoke Castilian Spanish and did not like being called, “Mexican”. “We were here before the Spanish,”, she would say. The diversity police would get very confused when she would do this. History is very difficult for the diversity police to understand. So much nuance!

    Read More
  8. Veritatis says:
    @Veritatis
    I'm not sure it is a stupid question. I have a friend in Houston, an 83 year old lady of Spanish extraction, named Carmen. She migrated to Texas as a small child, and has lived in Houston since she's 27, married a local fellow of German/English stock, integrated into local society. Accentless english, but naturally she speaks spanish. Anyway, she is dark haired, blue eyed with the very fair skin and chiselled features I associate with Santander, Spain. She tells this story about how every day she would go pick up her kids at school, and had the ritual tea with the standard Texan moms. And when anything related to Mexico or mexican things came up, they would ask her to explain. She thinks it is an american thing.

    Sorry, meant to reply to #3′s shout.

    Read More
  9. I had an excellent view of the WTC from my big office windows on 14th St. and 8th Ave.

    I watched both planes fly into the WTC.

    I held the hand of one of my co-workers whose father was the maintenance supervisor of the TV towers. We watched as her father died.

    Airplanes were indeed flown into the Twin Towers.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Si1ver1ock
    I agree. Planes hit the Towers. We think they were hacked. The argument goes something like:

    You can't get a plane to go that fast. You run out of "stick."

    It's like having your pedal to the floor on your car, there is no more room to accelerate. If the planes were under computer control, it solves many problems.

    1. The engines are directly controlled so you don't run out of stick.

    2. Inhuman levels of precision in navigation.

    3. The terrorists don't get cold feet.

    and so forth.

    Oddly enough, this was known before 911.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjbQ-BDh4PU
    , @Sparkon
    I was just having a look at that Chelsea neighborhood using Google maps. and I was wondering how you saw United 175 hit the WTC, since from your location, it would appear that the airplane's approach -- and crash -- would have been blocked by the WTC itself, as well as other buildings.

    I see that 80 8th Ave. is a 20 story, 282-foot, neo-gothic high-rise built in 1929, according to Emporis. The building has some unusual architectural details near its top -- like some additional office space was tacked on up there -- and would also appear to include Art Deco and Streamline Moderne design elements.

    It seems to be the only tall building on the corner of 14th St. and 8th Ave. that could have offices and windows that look toward the WTC, so I'd be interested to learn what floor you were on when you saw both WTC crashes, and any further details you might care to share from this poignant 9/11 experience.

  10. A 767 is quite capable of doing 500 “mph” at sea level. The placarded limit is 360 KIAS, but placards are for wimps, and if you shove the levers to the stops and put it into a shallow dive, you will cross 500 whatever long before pieces of the structure start to rip off. Flying into a building the size of the WTC is not that difficult in controlled flight.

    So what were those things that thousands saw with their own eyes and millions saw hitting the buildings that day?

    Read More
  11. @Shouting Thomas
    I had an excellent view of the WTC from my big office windows on 14th St. and 8th Ave.

    I watched both planes fly into the WTC.

    I held the hand of one of my co-workers whose father was the maintenance supervisor of the TV towers. We watched as her father died.

    Airplanes were indeed flown into the Twin Towers.

    I agree. Planes hit the Towers. We think they were hacked. The argument goes something like:

    You can’t get a plane to go that fast. You run out of “stick.”

    It’s like having your pedal to the floor on your car, there is no more room to accelerate. If the planes were under computer control, it solves many problems.

    1. The engines are directly controlled so you don’t run out of stick.

    2. Inhuman levels of precision in navigation.

    3. The terrorists don’t get cold feet.

    and so forth.

    Oddly enough, this was known before 911.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Erebus

    The argument goes something like:
    You can’t get a plane to go that fast. You run out of “stick.”
     
    No, it goes something like the engines' turbofan's blades cavitate and the engines go boom! As of now, Boeing has not released its windtunnel data, so we can't know beyond reasonable doubt whether the flight characteristics of the planes become unmanageable, but we do have expert opinions.
    Boeing's spokesman, answering a reporter's query whether the planes could fly at 500kn at <1000', laughed and replied "Not a chance". A few other guys, at least as qualified as an anonymous entity on an obscure internet forum such as yourself, have publicly said the equivalent. To whit:

    Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
    30,000+ Total Flight Time
    707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
    Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet,
    Aircraft Dispatcher
    Pan Am, United
    United States Air Force (ret)
    Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

    Captain Ross Aimer
    United Airlines, Retired
    B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
    Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
    23,000 hours
    27 years in the airlines
    B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
    20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
    civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
    Command time in:
    - N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
    - N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)

    John Lear
    Son of Bill Lear
    (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
    More than 40 years of Flying
    19,000+ TT
    23 Type ratings
    Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

    Many more where those came from. If you're pretending to be an expert, at a minimum pretend to be an expert with qualifications greater than or equal to the above.

    So, let's have 'em.
  12. So what were those things that thousands saw with their own eyes and millions saw hitting the buildings that day?

    People can see damn near anything it seems. Especially if they’re true believers. They call ‘em “holy visions,” “mystical experiences,” and the like.

    They’re kind of related to a vision of John McCain or Hillary or “Bibi” which would be, in reality, more akin to grotesque nightmares.

    Read More
    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    Denial ... it ain't just a river. Suppose you're also going to affirm AGW.
  13. @jacques sheete

    So what were those things that thousands saw with their own eyes and millions saw hitting the buildings that day?
     
    People can see damn near anything it seems. Especially if they're true believers. They call 'em "holy visions," "mystical experiences," and the like.

    They're kind of related to a vision of John McCain or Hillary or "Bibi" which would be, in reality, more akin to grotesque nightmares.

    Denial … it ain’t just a river. Suppose you’re also going to affirm AGW.

    Read More
    • Replies: @jacques sheete

    Suppose you’re also going to affirm AGW.
     
    Nah, it's just another corporatist conspiracy theory.

    Denial … it ain’t just a river
     
    .

    Gullibility...it ain't about birds.
  14. Erebus says:
    @Si1ver1ock
    I agree. Planes hit the Towers. We think they were hacked. The argument goes something like:

    You can't get a plane to go that fast. You run out of "stick."

    It's like having your pedal to the floor on your car, there is no more room to accelerate. If the planes were under computer control, it solves many problems.

    1. The engines are directly controlled so you don't run out of stick.

    2. Inhuman levels of precision in navigation.

    3. The terrorists don't get cold feet.

    and so forth.

    Oddly enough, this was known before 911.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EjbQ-BDh4PU

    The argument goes something like:
    You can’t get a plane to go that fast. You run out of “stick.”

    No, it goes something like the engines’ turbofan’s blades cavitate and the engines go boom! As of now, Boeing has not released its windtunnel data, so we can’t know beyond reasonable doubt whether the flight characteristics of the planes become unmanageable, but we do have expert opinions.
    Boeing’s spokesman, answering a reporter’s query whether the planes could fly at 500kn at <1000', laughed and replied "Not a chance". A few other guys, at least as qualified as an anonymous entity on an obscure internet forum such as yourself, have publicly said the equivalent. To whit:

    Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
    30,000+ Total Flight Time
    707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
    Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet,
    Aircraft Dispatcher
    Pan Am, United
    United States Air Force (ret)
    Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

    Captain Ross Aimer
    United Airlines, Retired
    B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
    Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
    23,000 hours
    27 years in the airlines
    B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
    20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
    civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
    Command time in:
    - N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
    - N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)

    John Lear
    Son of Bill Lear
    (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
    More than 40 years of Flying
    19,000+ TT
    23 Type ratings
    Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

    Many more where those came from. If you're pretending to be an expert, at a minimum pretend to be an expert with qualifications greater than or equal to the above.

    So, let's have 'em.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Si1ver1ock
    I'm not pretending to be an expert. I'm giving you the argument as I understand it. Most industrial engines have governors on them to prevent them exceeding safety specs. A computer override might allow these safety measures to be exceeded.

    In this case, the we are looking at a one way trip lasting less than five minutes in what is essentially the flattened bottom curve of a power dive, it accelerates down, then levels out for the last sprint. Since these are commercial grade craft and well over spec'd I imagine they could hold together for the limited time necessary.

    Another thing that bothers me is steering at that speed. This can't be autopilot. A reflexive flinch or twitch of the hand or strong wind could push the craft off course fairly easily.

    A lot of questions could be answered if any of the "black boxes" had survived. Instead, all we are left with is the passport of the lead hijacker.

    But, since you seem knowledgeable, what do you make of the allegation that none of the pilots were able to press the panic button on any of the aircraft?
  15. Naive question: could planes be aimed in some fairly uncontrolled descent at the Twin Towers or the Pentagon and hit their target without breaking up or having engines explode or similar catastrophes prior to the impact catastrophe?
    Since people saw the planes hit, and they were obviously flying pretty fast, how did they stay intact prior to impact?

    Read More
    • Replies: @whoever

    Naive question
     
    Not at all. Actually a very good question.
    VMO/MMO* on the B757/767 below 10,000 ft is 250 knots because the windshield isn't certified to withstand bird strike above 313 knots -- note the large safety margin. It's not because the airplane is physically incapable of operating at higher speeds at those altitudes. VNE/MNE** is higher.
    Exceeding VMO/MMO will sound the over-speed alarm, but that's about it. Even VNE/MNE is not a physical limit. It is the limit beyond which it is no longer known to be safe, not the limit beyond which it is known that the aircraft will be immediately destroyed. It is the speed beyond which, at some point, dynamic pressure will damage components and aeroelastic flutter will develop.
    I have exceeded VNE in light aircraft while learning aerobatics with no harm done, and there are countless stories of World War II pilots discovering for themselves Mach tuck in high speed dives, recovering by guess and by gosh and returning to base with wrinkled airplanes and white hair, but otherwise safe.
    An aeronautical engineer posts at this site, and I'm sure he could explain it all much more clearly and accurately than I have.

    *VMO/MMO refers to the Maximum Operational airspeed and Mach.
    **VNE/MNE refers to Never Exceed airspeed and Mach. At low altitudes the V numbers are reached first and at high altitudes the M numbers are.

  16. I also know Mohammed Atta was in New Jersey around the time of 9/11.

    How?

    A friend of mine rents rooms in a house near Teterboro Airport, where Atta was taking pilot lessons. Atta knocked on the door, and asked to see a room. My friend, a woman, was afraid of him and refused to allow him inside the house.

    This is one of your nuttier post, which is saying something but what else can we expect from an apologist for Hamas terrorism?

    Yes, I did live in Woodstock, home base to plenty of lefty Hamas supporters who harbor and provide material support to Jihadi terrorists.

    Also a long time bastion of commies. They were real fond of the Russia back during the days of Stalin.

    Read More
  17. whoever says: • Website
    @Off The Street
    Naive question: could planes be aimed in some fairly uncontrolled descent at the Twin Towers or the Pentagon and hit their target without breaking up or having engines explode or similar catastrophes prior to the impact catastrophe?
    Since people saw the planes hit, and they were obviously flying pretty fast, how did they stay intact prior to impact?

    Naive question

    Not at all. Actually a very good question.
    VMO/MMO* on the B757/767 below 10,000 ft is 250 knots because the windshield isn’t certified to withstand bird strike above 313 knots — note the large safety margin. It’s not because the airplane is physically incapable of operating at higher speeds at those altitudes. VNE/MNE** is higher.
    Exceeding VMO/MMO will sound the over-speed alarm, but that’s about it. Even VNE/MNE is not a physical limit. It is the limit beyond which it is no longer known to be safe, not the limit beyond which it is known that the aircraft will be immediately destroyed. It is the speed beyond which, at some point, dynamic pressure will damage components and aeroelastic flutter will develop.
    I have exceeded VNE in light aircraft while learning aerobatics with no harm done, and there are countless stories of World War II pilots discovering for themselves Mach tuck in high speed dives, recovering by guess and by gosh and returning to base with wrinkled airplanes and white hair, but otherwise safe.
    An aeronautical engineer posts at this site, and I’m sure he could explain it all much more clearly and accurately than I have.

    *VMO/MMO refers to the Maximum Operational airspeed and Mach.
    **VNE/MNE refers to Never Exceed airspeed and Mach. At low altitudes the V numbers are reached first and at high altitudes the M numbers are.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Thank you. It also never occurred to me from my limited experience piloting small planes (and just two aerobatics lessons) that there were physical limits imposed on dive speed. Presumably any pilot training for civil airliners would include instruction in how to turn off automatic default limitations on speed.
  18. @Erebus

    The argument goes something like:
    You can’t get a plane to go that fast. You run out of “stick.”
     
    No, it goes something like the engines' turbofan's blades cavitate and the engines go boom! As of now, Boeing has not released its windtunnel data, so we can't know beyond reasonable doubt whether the flight characteristics of the planes become unmanageable, but we do have expert opinions.
    Boeing's spokesman, answering a reporter's query whether the planes could fly at 500kn at <1000', laughed and replied "Not a chance". A few other guys, at least as qualified as an anonymous entity on an obscure internet forum such as yourself, have publicly said the equivalent. To whit:

    Captain Russ Wittenberg (ret)
    30,000+ Total Flight Time
    707, 727, 737, 747, 757, 767, 777, DC-8, L-1049, Learjet 24/25, L-188
    Ground Instructor, Advanced Ground Instructor, Instrument Instructor, Flight Engineer Turbojet,
    Aircraft Dispatcher
    Pan Am, United
    United States Air Force (ret)
    Over 100 Combat Missions Flown
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)

    Captain Ross Aimer
    United Airlines, Retired
    B-777/767/757/747/737/727/720/707, DC-10/-9/-8 Type ratings
    Command time in:
    - N591UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 93)
    - N612UA (Aircraft dispatched as United 175)
    Commander Ralph “Rotten” Kolstad
    23,000 hours
    27 years in the airlines
    B757/767 for 13 years mostly international Captain with American Airlines.
    20 years US Navy flying fighters off aircraft carriers, TopGun twice
    civilian pilot flying gliders, light airplanes and warbirds
    Command time in:
    - N644AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 77)
    - N334AA (Aircraft dispatched as American 11)

    John Lear
    Son of Bill Lear
    (Founder, creator of the Lear Jet Corporation)
    More than 40 years of Flying
    19,000+ TT
    23 Type ratings
    Flight experience includes 707, DC-8, 727, L10-11

    Many more where those came from. If you're pretending to be an expert, at a minimum pretend to be an expert with qualifications greater than or equal to the above.

    So, let's have 'em.

    I’m not pretending to be an expert. I’m giving you the argument as I understand it. Most industrial engines have governors on them to prevent them exceeding safety specs. A computer override might allow these safety measures to be exceeded.

    In this case, the we are looking at a one way trip lasting less than five minutes in what is essentially the flattened bottom curve of a power dive, it accelerates down, then levels out for the last sprint. Since these are commercial grade craft and well over spec’d I imagine they could hold together for the limited time necessary.

    Another thing that bothers me is steering at that speed. This can’t be autopilot. A reflexive flinch or twitch of the hand or strong wind could push the craft off course fairly easily.

    A lot of questions could be answered if any of the “black boxes” had survived. Instead, all we are left with is the passport of the lead hijacker.

    But, since you seem knowledgeable, what do you make of the allegation that none of the pilots were able to press the panic button on any of the aircraft?

    Read More
  19. Truth says:
    @The Alarmist
    A 767 is quite capable of doing 500 "mph" at sea level. The placarded limit is 360 KIAS, but placards are for wimps, and if you shove the levers to the stops and put it into a shallow dive, you will cross 500 whatever long before pieces of the structure start to rip off. Flying into a building the size of the WTC is not that difficult in controlled flight.

    So what were those things that thousands saw with their own eyes and millions saw hitting the buildings that day?

    Hoax.

    Read More
  20. Erebus says:

    Since these are commercial grade craft and well over spec’d I imagine they could hold together for the limited time necessary.

    It isn’t just “holding together” that’s required. In addition to precision flying, especially with the 2nd plane in a hi-G turn, maintenance of speed would, according to the pilots I cited above, have been impossible. Parasitic drag would quickly slow the plane, and the engines wouldn’t have been able to overcome it due to cavitation.

    As we don’t have definitive data whether the airliners could physically do what the official narrative demands of them, we can’t definitively claim or exclude their use. At best, whatever argument marshals a preponderance of evidence on one side or the other may win a contingent, but not definitive victory.

    At this time, several highly qualified individuals have publicly stated that there’s “Not a chance”, and have given detailed explanations for their opinion. So far as I know, no similarly qualified individual has come forward on the other side.
    In addition to these experts, there are a myriad of technical anomalies associated with all 4 of the ostensible flights that day. On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos. Some of the witnesses are as dodgy as the videos.
    On balance, I’d say that the preponderance of evidence lies clearly on the side of No Planes Theory. The NPT, by the way, denies the use of commercially scheduled Boeing 7x7s, but does not preclude the use of other flying objects.

    Of course, should definitive data surface that precludes the use of airliners, the matter would be settled. Should said data indicate that they could have been flown in a manner consistent with the official narrative, that would indicate that they may have been, and we’re back to where we started. Namely, marshalling evidence. A real Inquiry with subpoena power could have answered this and a host of other questions. That such an Inquiry hasn’t been convened is itself astonishing.

    So, to speculate on why the pilots (if there were any) failed to press the panic button(s) (if there were any) becomes a rather idle exercise. That there was no sign of panic button pressing is a matter of fact. Of course, that fact explains itself if there weren’t any planes.

    Read More
    • Replies: @eD
    "On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos."

    We don't even have that with the Pentagon.

    There weren't that many witnesses to the first plane hitting the Twin Towers because no one was expecting or looking for a plane to hit the Twin Towers until the first crash. The first reports were of a small plane, and its hard to tell from the videos that we have. People were watching when the second plane hit, so there are of course lots of eyewitness accounts, videos, and a live television news feed.

    Since the crash into the South Tower was live on TV, people assume there is a similar level of documentation for the North Tower and Pentagon attacks.
    , @Wizard of Oz
    If you were plotting to cause immense damage to the Twin Towers in a way that got Al Qaeda blamed why would you do it with cruise missiles and their launching planes or ground based launchers involving inevitably highly trained members of US armed forces (or just a few Russian mercenaries if you like)? Why wouldn't you do it with civil aircraft that weren't in danger of being reported missing from an armoury/aesenal and needed far less specialised skill to manoeuvre or could be simply programmed for a period starting only half an hour before impact if you don't like the idea of half trained pilots taking over? What precedent is there for terrorists using sophisticated missilea rather than improvising highjackings and/or suicide vehicles? Plotters wouldn't want to provide evidence (which might or might not be covered up successfully) that they had sophisticated military connections.
  21. unit472 says:

    I enjoy reading Linh Dinh’s vignettes of life on the seamy side but, like Group Captain Lionel Mandrake in the movie Dr. Strangelove upon hearing General Ripper digress into the ‘international communist conspiracy and its plan to sap our precious bodily fluids’, you realize you are listening to a madman! So it is here. Everything is normal with Mr. Linh Dinh when suddenly, out of nowhere, comes his fantastic claim that there were no airplanes on 9/11. His ‘conspiracy’ trumps your lying eyes!

    Read More
    • Agree: Wizard of Oz
    • Replies: @republic
    9/11 was a production years in the making, what is important to remember
    Is the three major players in this complex drama: Israel, some elements of the
    US deep state and Saudi involvement.
    The exact details will never be know
    Atta was almost certainly a patsy, as was Oswald.
  22. republic says:
    @unit472
    I enjoy reading Linh Dinh's vignettes of life on the seamy side but, like Group Captain Lionel Mandrake in the movie Dr. Strangelove upon hearing General Ripper digress into the 'international communist conspiracy and its plan to sap our precious bodily fluids', you realize you are listening to a madman! So it is here. Everything is normal with Mr. Linh Dinh when suddenly, out of nowhere, comes his fantastic claim that there were no airplanes on 9/11. His 'conspiracy' trumps your lying eyes!

    9/11 was a production years in the making, what is important to remember
    Is the three major players in this complex drama: Israel, some elements of the
    US deep state and Saudi involvement.
    The exact details will never be know
    Atta was almost certainly a patsy, as was Oswald.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    Don't you realise that there are crimes as bad as being wrong on diversity. You have just conceded that there were actual planes (the Atta reference) and that disqualifies you from the asylum where the hardline fantssists are confined.
    , @Si1ver1ock
    I agree. Here is one of the more disturbing things I found back when I was looking into 911. It's the cover from the 1998 FEMA Emergency Response To Terrorism Self-Study.

    https://tinyurl.com/yblseqcv
  23. Sparkon says:
    @Shouting Thomas
    I had an excellent view of the WTC from my big office windows on 14th St. and 8th Ave.

    I watched both planes fly into the WTC.

    I held the hand of one of my co-workers whose father was the maintenance supervisor of the TV towers. We watched as her father died.

    Airplanes were indeed flown into the Twin Towers.

    I was just having a look at that Chelsea neighborhood using Google maps. and I was wondering how you saw United 175 hit the WTC, since from your location, it would appear that the airplane’s approach — and crash — would have been blocked by the WTC itself, as well as other buildings.

    I see that 80 8th Ave. is a 20 story, 282-foot, neo-gothic high-rise built in 1929, according to Emporis. The building has some unusual architectural details near its top — like some additional office space was tacked on up there — and would also appear to include Art Deco and Streamline Moderne design elements.

    It seems to be the only tall building on the corner of 14th St. and 8th Ave. that could have offices and windows that look toward the WTC, so I’d be interested to learn what floor you were on when you saw both WTC crashes, and any further details you might care to share from this poignant 9/11 experience.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Shouting Thomas
    By God, you've got me!

    I'm one of thousands of conspirators living and working in Manhattan who were paid off by secret agents of the New World Order to pretend that I saw two jets deliberately crashed into the WTC.

    The Bushes paid me millions. I've retired in luxury to the Bahamas where they continue to pay for my daily intake of beautiful whores and coke.
    , @Erebus
    Good work.
    I'd bet my last chicken that Tom's 9/11 vignette @#9 has no more truth in it than his response to your question. The trouble is that pulp fiction vignettes can be generated far more quickly than they can be debunked.
    These accounts depend on a dearth of Sparkon types to gain emotional traction with the casual reader. Much more damaging are the HIQIs whose typically very large life investment in the common narrative compels them to defend it against all comers and in the face of all evidence.

    I have found this to true even of talented people I cajoled into doing some calculations for themselves. They would stare slack-jawed at the resulting numbers, then typically fell into 1 of 2 groups.
    The 1st recovered quickly with a variation on "That can't be right. There must be a variable you're missing...".
    The 2nd stand up and walk away in silence, never mentioning the conversation again. The more traumatized of these never speak to me again.
    There is a 3rd group, so small it barely registers. These react with a "H-o-l-y sh-i-i-t... That means..." and a Truther is born.
  24. @Sparkon
    I was just having a look at that Chelsea neighborhood using Google maps. and I was wondering how you saw United 175 hit the WTC, since from your location, it would appear that the airplane's approach -- and crash -- would have been blocked by the WTC itself, as well as other buildings.

    I see that 80 8th Ave. is a 20 story, 282-foot, neo-gothic high-rise built in 1929, according to Emporis. The building has some unusual architectural details near its top -- like some additional office space was tacked on up there -- and would also appear to include Art Deco and Streamline Moderne design elements.

    It seems to be the only tall building on the corner of 14th St. and 8th Ave. that could have offices and windows that look toward the WTC, so I'd be interested to learn what floor you were on when you saw both WTC crashes, and any further details you might care to share from this poignant 9/11 experience.

    By God, you’ve got me!

    I’m one of thousands of conspirators living and working in Manhattan who were paid off by secret agents of the New World Order to pretend that I saw two jets deliberately crashed into the WTC.

    The Bushes paid me millions. I’ve retired in luxury to the Bahamas where they continue to pay for my daily intake of beautiful whores and coke.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    It's a pity you do give the impression of having made up your evidence without taking the trouble to make it unfalsifiable (in fact). I suppose I ought to suspect that you are secretly trying to support Revusky's mad fantasies by discrediting reality. Amusing that the usually readable Linh Dinh appears to buy that crap. I wonder if it is his way of paying the rent to the mad Revusky.
  25. hyperbola says:
    @utu
    People on the lower rungs of ethnic/racial hierarchy (e.g. as the de facto existing in the US) are very much better attuned to the minutiae of racial and ethnic who-whom than people who are on the higher rungs. So Linh Dinh brining up Mexicans did not realize he was committing a gaffe.

    Linh Dinh's question perhaps revealed something. He seemed to want to suck up to the interlocutor by (1) pointing out that he was not a lowly Mexican but Catalonian, (2) commiserate with him that he undeservedly suffered the special treatment Mexicans are expected to get in Texas (which Catalonians do not deserve - or so he thought?).

    Mexicans are not considered “lowly” in Spain and Leo might well have considered such an insinuation to be insulting. Or at least worthy of a stupid American. The Spanish remember rather well that during Franco’s dictatorship, a large number of Spanish intellectuals fled to Mexico.

    Read More
  26. Erebus says:
    @Sparkon
    I was just having a look at that Chelsea neighborhood using Google maps. and I was wondering how you saw United 175 hit the WTC, since from your location, it would appear that the airplane's approach -- and crash -- would have been blocked by the WTC itself, as well as other buildings.

    I see that 80 8th Ave. is a 20 story, 282-foot, neo-gothic high-rise built in 1929, according to Emporis. The building has some unusual architectural details near its top -- like some additional office space was tacked on up there -- and would also appear to include Art Deco and Streamline Moderne design elements.

    It seems to be the only tall building on the corner of 14th St. and 8th Ave. that could have offices and windows that look toward the WTC, so I'd be interested to learn what floor you were on when you saw both WTC crashes, and any further details you might care to share from this poignant 9/11 experience.

    Good work.
    I’d bet my last chicken that Tom’s 9/11 vignette @#9 has no more truth in it than his response to your question. The trouble is that pulp fiction vignettes can be generated far more quickly than they can be debunked.
    These accounts depend on a dearth of Sparkon types to gain emotional traction with the casual reader. Much more damaging are the HIQIs whose typically very large life investment in the common narrative compels them to defend it against all comers and in the face of all evidence.

    I have found this to true even of talented people I cajoled into doing some calculations for themselves. They would stare slack-jawed at the resulting numbers, then typically fell into 1 of 2 groups.
    The 1st recovered quickly with a variation on “That can’t be right. There must be a variable you’re missing…”.
    The 2nd stand up and walk away in silence, never mentioning the conversation again. The more traumatized of these never speak to me again.
    There is a 3rd group, so small it barely registers. These react with a “H-o-l-y sh-i-i-t… That means…” and a Truther is born.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    So true! I used to chat with an old guy at the park while walking the dogs. He became so enraged over learning some truths about 9/11 that he screamed at me for even suggesting that elements within the US Gov't were involved in the killing of 3000 Americans and then he stormed off. I laughed at him but he's really quite lucky I didn't set my Bully brute onto his wimpy German Shepherd.
  27. This may be the dumbest post in the history of the internet.

    Read More
    • Replies: @NoseytheDuke
    The one I'm responding to? I agree that it says little of any value but I think there have been worse so don't be so hard on yourself.
  28. @Erebus
    Good work.
    I'd bet my last chicken that Tom's 9/11 vignette @#9 has no more truth in it than his response to your question. The trouble is that pulp fiction vignettes can be generated far more quickly than they can be debunked.
    These accounts depend on a dearth of Sparkon types to gain emotional traction with the casual reader. Much more damaging are the HIQIs whose typically very large life investment in the common narrative compels them to defend it against all comers and in the face of all evidence.

    I have found this to true even of talented people I cajoled into doing some calculations for themselves. They would stare slack-jawed at the resulting numbers, then typically fell into 1 of 2 groups.
    The 1st recovered quickly with a variation on "That can't be right. There must be a variable you're missing...".
    The 2nd stand up and walk away in silence, never mentioning the conversation again. The more traumatized of these never speak to me again.
    There is a 3rd group, so small it barely registers. These react with a "H-o-l-y sh-i-i-t... That means..." and a Truther is born.

    So true! I used to chat with an old guy at the park while walking the dogs. He became so enraged over learning some truths about 9/11 that he screamed at me for even suggesting that elements within the US Gov’t were involved in the killing of 3000 Americans and then he stormed off. I laughed at him but he’s really quite lucky I didn’t set my Bully brute onto his wimpy German Shepherd.

    Read More
  29. @Shouting Thomas
    This may be the dumbest post in the history of the internet.

    The one I’m responding to? I agree that it says little of any value but I think there have been worse so don’t be so hard on yourself.

    Read More
  30. eD says:
    @Erebus

    Since these are commercial grade craft and well over spec’d I imagine they could hold together for the limited time necessary.
     
    It isn't just "holding together" that's required. In addition to precision flying, especially with the 2nd plane in a hi-G turn, maintenance of speed would, according to the pilots I cited above, have been impossible. Parasitic drag would quickly slow the plane, and the engines wouldn't have been able to overcome it due to cavitation.

    As we don’t have definitive data whether the airliners could physically do what the official narrative demands of them, we can’t definitively claim or exclude their use. At best, whatever argument marshals a preponderance of evidence on one side or the other may win a contingent, but not definitive victory.

    At this time, several highly qualified individuals have publicly stated that there's "Not a chance", and have given detailed explanations for their opinion. So far as I know, no similarly qualified individual has come forward on the other side.
    In addition to these experts, there are a myriad of technical anomalies associated with all 4 of the ostensible flights that day. On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos. Some of the witnesses are as dodgy as the videos.
    On balance, I'd say that the preponderance of evidence lies clearly on the side of No Planes Theory. The NPT, by the way, denies the use of commercially scheduled Boeing 7x7s, but does not preclude the use of other flying objects.

    Of course, should definitive data surface that precludes the use of airliners, the matter would be settled. Should said data indicate that they could have been flown in a manner consistent with the official narrative, that would indicate that they may have been, and we’re back to where we started. Namely, marshalling evidence. A real Inquiry with subpoena power could have answered this and a host of other questions. That such an Inquiry hasn't been convened is itself astonishing.

    So, to speculate on why the pilots (if there were any) failed to press the panic button(s) (if there were any) becomes a rather idle exercise. That there was no sign of panic button pressing is a matter of fact. Of course, that fact explains itself if there weren't any planes.

    “On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos.”

    We don’t even have that with the Pentagon.

    There weren’t that many witnesses to the first plane hitting the Twin Towers because no one was expecting or looking for a plane to hit the Twin Towers until the first crash. The first reports were of a small plane, and its hard to tell from the videos that we have. People were watching when the second plane hit, so there are of course lots of eyewitness accounts, videos, and a live television news feed.

    Since the crash into the South Tower was live on TV, people assume there is a similar level of documentation for the North Tower and Pentagon attacks.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    I hsve seen a video taken soon after the Pentagon was hit which shows on the lawn outside part of an aircraft's tail. On that part the American Airlines name and logo shows clearly.
  31. Erebus says:

    There weren’t that many witnesses to the first plane hitting the Twin Towers

    The first 3 I saw on TV, (not sure if it was before the 2nd tower was hit), didn’t see a plane. 1 heard the impact and looked up to see the fireball, 1 heard a “plane engine screaming by” and looked up to see an explosion, the 3rd was sure he saw and heard a missile. The radio report I was listening to said that “a small plane” had hit the 1st tower before I turned on the TV. After the towers came down, there were lots of plane witnesses.

    People were watching when the second plane hit, so there are of course lots of eyewitness accounts, videos, and a live television news feed.

    Surprisingly few videos actually. There were two live feeds, neither of which showed the actual impact, though one (from a helicopter) did feature the “nosecone” coming out the other side of the 2nd tower. The other, which I was watching, was from a rooftop vantage point some distance away and showed the plane coming in from off-screen right and disappear behind the towers as a large fireball blew out of the 2nd tower.

    Several videos came out in the days, weeks and months following, and a few of these showed the impact into the 2nd tower. I haven’t looked in a long time so more may have turned up, but in another thread Sparkon pointed out that the technology required to insert, remove or replace objects in live feeds was commercially available and in possession of at least one of the networks in 2001. If that is so, all of the video evidence is suspect and should be subjected to vigorous scrutiny before being accepted as any sort of evidence.

    With the quantity and quality of lies being pumped at us daily, the new default position for attentive citizens is to assume that whatever they are being told is bunkum, pending confirmation. That includes anything we took to be true in a more innocent time.

    Read More
    • Replies: @Wizard of Oz
    As you spend a fair amount of time on 9/11 matters and write of the need of "confirmation" I wonder what you have done to check the very uncertain story you seem to be stuck at. If you seriously wonder whether planes hit the WTC the most direct inquiry would be to try and make contact with a few of the people who ate quoted as seeing the planes, people who shot the videos or at least those who spoke to the latter and handled the videos.

    Then there is the question of actual flights and actual passengers. Can the "planes didn't hit the WTC" survive honest examination of the facts relating to flights and passengers?

    I note that you seem to believe some crap about the planes not being able fly fast enough at under 1000 feet (or for some reason the speed of 500 mph is taken to be critical) to do the observed damage. It seems to me such absurd nonsense that it is only your citing someone from Boeing that makes me ask for the link.
  32. Anon says: • Disclaimer

    I don’t know why 911 causes such confusion amongst people because the facts are quite straightforward. The redacted 28 pages show that Prince Bandar was paying two of the putative hijackers during their incubation period in the US. This proves beyond doubt that the Arabs were Saudi intelligence assets. Period. What is the likelihood of any of these assets committing suicide by plane crash? Nil. They are intended to only look like hijackers to the brain-dead media and public. That’s why their ‘flight training’ was hilariously bad and purely cosmetic in nature. That’s why Atta and his pal Jarrah don’t even pretend to be crazed Muslim suicidalists on their suicide video, they don’t have to. The media will always come up with some apparently plausible explanation that satisfies any slight incredulity on their part.

    What happens next? Well that’s when it gets complicated. The real planes are hijacked by some sort of special forces teams that look and speak like Arab terrorists. The passengers believe they are being hijacked by real terrorists and make the evidential phone calls. At some point during the flights the real planes are swapped by remote controlled look-alikes that do the actual crashes. This means that the radar systems were compromised and the DNA testing processes were compromised. That’s a big ask but I have no doubt that the MIC would have the ability to do that.

    Precisely how it was done may never be known. However the indisputable fact that the ‘hijackers’ were Saudi assets means that something like this must have happened. There is a lot of cognitive dissonance around this issue.

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  33. The interesting aspect for me of Homage to Catalonia is not how Orwell was seriously wounded, but how he lost any illusion about revolution and civil war.

    How illusions about Sept 11 still can exist, incomprehensible.

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  34. @uslabor
    “Since you’re Spanish, were you ever annoyed at being confused for a Mexican growing up?”

    “But I am also Mexican. Texas was Mexican!”

    WHAT A STUPID QUESTION!!!!

    Lihn Dihn...........A lesson to YOU and your readers. Being Mexican isn't an ethnicity, it is a nationality.

    And so is “Spaniah” so what’s your problem?

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  35. @Shouting Thomas
    By God, you've got me!

    I'm one of thousands of conspirators living and working in Manhattan who were paid off by secret agents of the New World Order to pretend that I saw two jets deliberately crashed into the WTC.

    The Bushes paid me millions. I've retired in luxury to the Bahamas where they continue to pay for my daily intake of beautiful whores and coke.

    It’s a pity you do give the impression of having made up your evidence without taking the trouble to make it unfalsifiable (in fact). I suppose I ought to suspect that you are secretly trying to support Revusky’s mad fantasies by discrediting reality. Amusing that the usually readable Linh Dinh appears to buy that crap. I wonder if it is his way of paying the rent to the mad Revusky.

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  36. @Erebus

    There weren’t that many witnesses to the first plane hitting the Twin Towers
     
    The first 3 I saw on TV, (not sure if it was before the 2nd tower was hit), didn't see a plane. 1 heard the impact and looked up to see the fireball, 1 heard a "plane engine screaming by" and looked up to see an explosion, the 3rd was sure he saw and heard a missile. The radio report I was listening to said that "a small plane" had hit the 1st tower before I turned on the TV. After the towers came down, there were lots of plane witnesses.

    People were watching when the second plane hit, so there are of course lots of eyewitness accounts, videos, and a live television news feed.
     
    Surprisingly few videos actually. There were two live feeds, neither of which showed the actual impact, though one (from a helicopter) did feature the "nosecone" coming out the other side of the 2nd tower. The other, which I was watching, was from a rooftop vantage point some distance away and showed the plane coming in from off-screen right and disappear behind the towers as a large fireball blew out of the 2nd tower.

    Several videos came out in the days, weeks and months following, and a few of these showed the impact into the 2nd tower. I haven't looked in a long time so more may have turned up, but in another thread Sparkon pointed out that the technology required to insert, remove or replace objects in live feeds was commercially available and in possession of at least one of the networks in 2001. If that is so, all of the video evidence is suspect and should be subjected to vigorous scrutiny before being accepted as any sort of evidence.

    With the quantity and quality of lies being pumped at us daily, the new default position for attentive citizens is to assume that whatever they are being told is bunkum, pending confirmation. That includes anything we took to be true in a more innocent time.

    As you spend a fair amount of time on 9/11 matters and write of the need of “confirmation” I wonder what you have done to check the very uncertain story you seem to be stuck at. If you seriously wonder whether planes hit the WTC the most direct inquiry would be to try and make contact with a few of the people who ate quoted as seeing the planes, people who shot the videos or at least those who spoke to the latter and handled the videos.

    Then there is the question of actual flights and actual passengers. Can the “planes didn’t hit the WTC” survive honest examination of the facts relating to flights and passengers?

    I note that you seem to believe some crap about the planes not being able fly fast enough at under 1000 feet (or for some reason the speed of 500 mph is taken to be critical) to do the observed damage. It seems to me such absurd nonsense that it is only your citing someone from Boeing that makes me ask for the link.

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  37. @republic
    9/11 was a production years in the making, what is important to remember
    Is the three major players in this complex drama: Israel, some elements of the
    US deep state and Saudi involvement.
    The exact details will never be know
    Atta was almost certainly a patsy, as was Oswald.

    Don’t you realise that there are crimes as bad as being wrong on diversity. You have just conceded that there were actual planes (the Atta reference) and that disqualifies you from the asylum where the hardline fantssists are confined.

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  38. @eD
    "On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos."

    We don't even have that with the Pentagon.

    There weren't that many witnesses to the first plane hitting the Twin Towers because no one was expecting or looking for a plane to hit the Twin Towers until the first crash. The first reports were of a small plane, and its hard to tell from the videos that we have. People were watching when the second plane hit, so there are of course lots of eyewitness accounts, videos, and a live television news feed.

    Since the crash into the South Tower was live on TV, people assume there is a similar level of documentation for the North Tower and Pentagon attacks.

    I hsve seen a video taken soon after the Pentagon was hit which shows on the lawn outside part of an aircraft’s tail. On that part the American Airlines name and logo shows clearly.

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  39. @Erebus

    Since these are commercial grade craft and well over spec’d I imagine they could hold together for the limited time necessary.
     
    It isn't just "holding together" that's required. In addition to precision flying, especially with the 2nd plane in a hi-G turn, maintenance of speed would, according to the pilots I cited above, have been impossible. Parasitic drag would quickly slow the plane, and the engines wouldn't have been able to overcome it due to cavitation.

    As we don’t have definitive data whether the airliners could physically do what the official narrative demands of them, we can’t definitively claim or exclude their use. At best, whatever argument marshals a preponderance of evidence on one side or the other may win a contingent, but not definitive victory.

    At this time, several highly qualified individuals have publicly stated that there's "Not a chance", and have given detailed explanations for their opinion. So far as I know, no similarly qualified individual has come forward on the other side.
    In addition to these experts, there are a myriad of technical anomalies associated with all 4 of the ostensible flights that day. On the other side are a few witnesses, and a few rather dodgy videos. Some of the witnesses are as dodgy as the videos.
    On balance, I'd say that the preponderance of evidence lies clearly on the side of No Planes Theory. The NPT, by the way, denies the use of commercially scheduled Boeing 7x7s, but does not preclude the use of other flying objects.

    Of course, should definitive data surface that precludes the use of airliners, the matter would be settled. Should said data indicate that they could have been flown in a manner consistent with the official narrative, that would indicate that they may have been, and we’re back to where we started. Namely, marshalling evidence. A real Inquiry with subpoena power could have answered this and a host of other questions. That such an Inquiry hasn't been convened is itself astonishing.

    So, to speculate on why the pilots (if there were any) failed to press the panic button(s) (if there were any) becomes a rather idle exercise. That there was no sign of panic button pressing is a matter of fact. Of course, that fact explains itself if there weren't any planes.

    If you were plotting to cause immense damage to the Twin Towers in a way that got Al Qaeda blamed why would you do it with cruise missiles and their launching planes or ground based launchers involving inevitably highly trained members of US armed forces (or just a few Russian mercenaries if you like)? Why wouldn’t you do it with civil aircraft that weren’t in danger of being reported missing from an armoury/aesenal and needed far less specialised skill to manoeuvre or could be simply programmed for a period starting only half an hour before impact if you don’t like the idea of half trained pilots taking over? What precedent is there for terrorists using sophisticated missilea rather than improvising highjackings and/or suicide vehicles? Plotters wouldn’t want to provide evidence (which might or might not be covered up successfully) that they had sophisticated military connections.

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  40. @whoever

    Naive question
     
    Not at all. Actually a very good question.
    VMO/MMO* on the B757/767 below 10,000 ft is 250 knots because the windshield isn't certified to withstand bird strike above 313 knots -- note the large safety margin. It's not because the airplane is physically incapable of operating at higher speeds at those altitudes. VNE/MNE** is higher.
    Exceeding VMO/MMO will sound the over-speed alarm, but that's about it. Even VNE/MNE is not a physical limit. It is the limit beyond which it is no longer known to be safe, not the limit beyond which it is known that the aircraft will be immediately destroyed. It is the speed beyond which, at some point, dynamic pressure will damage components and aeroelastic flutter will develop.
    I have exceeded VNE in light aircraft while learning aerobatics with no harm done, and there are countless stories of World War II pilots discovering for themselves Mach tuck in high speed dives, recovering by guess and by gosh and returning to base with wrinkled airplanes and white hair, but otherwise safe.
    An aeronautical engineer posts at this site, and I'm sure he could explain it all much more clearly and accurately than I have.

    *VMO/MMO refers to the Maximum Operational airspeed and Mach.
    **VNE/MNE refers to Never Exceed airspeed and Mach. At low altitudes the V numbers are reached first and at high altitudes the M numbers are.

    Thank you. It also never occurred to me from my limited experience piloting small planes (and just two aerobatics lessons) that there were physical limits imposed on dive speed. Presumably any pilot training for civil airliners would include instruction in how to turn off automatic default limitations on speed.

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  41. I’m going with the Two Planes Theory until I get better evidence. I strongly suspect they were hacked using something like Global Hawk Technology.

    1. I think there was a radar track of the planes hitting the Towers (but I’d have to check to be sure).

    2. The buildings shifted and began swaying in response to the impact of the planes.

    3. Numerous eyewitnesses reported airplanes hitting the building.

    4. Both events were caught on video camera.

    Furthermore, I believe that a plane hit the Pentagon. I look to David Chandler for guidance in some of these issues. He is a physics teacher and he has demonstrated integrity.

    I agree that a new investigation is needed. I support a real forensic/ criminal investigation of 911.

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  42. @The Alarmist
    Denial ... it ain't just a river. Suppose you're also going to affirm AGW.

    Suppose you’re also going to affirm AGW.

    Nah, it’s just another corporatist conspiracy theory.

    Denial … it ain’t just a river

    .

    Gullibility…it ain’t about birds.

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  43. @republic
    9/11 was a production years in the making, what is important to remember
    Is the three major players in this complex drama: Israel, some elements of the
    US deep state and Saudi involvement.
    The exact details will never be know
    Atta was almost certainly a patsy, as was Oswald.

    I agree. Here is one of the more disturbing things I found back when I was looking into 911. It’s the cover from the 1998 FEMA Emergency Response To Terrorism Self-Study.

    https://tinyurl.com/yblseqcv

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